open thread – March 10-11, 2017

by Alison Green on March 10, 2017

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

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  1. SOMA*

    Sometimes it is hard to be hopeful about job searching when I’ve been looking for nearly a year now with no offers. These last few weeks have been particularly difficult. But I’m really hoping that karma/the universe/higher power had a plan for me to build up all this practice with cover letters and interviews because an opening that would be perfect for me opened up at a dream workplace, and I actually have a contact with the place that might help me get my foot in the door at least.

    So this weekend I’ll be writing the best cover letter I can possibly manage and hope that my patience and work these long months prove worthwhile. Wish me luck!

      1. New Window*

        I feel this so much. Sending. Good thoughts/wishes/hope that it starts getting better. As long as we don’t give up, right?

      2. JobSeeker017*

        Elizabeth West, could I get a bit of that fairy dust, too? I have an important interview Thursday and have been asked to submit a three-page essay as part of the screening process for another position.

        My fingers are very tightly crossed for not only myself but for others in similar situations.

        Good luck, everyone!

    11. Mirilla*

      Good luck! I know how you feel. My year long job search just ended today with a great job offer. Keep going. It will happen!

  2. The Mighty Thor*

    As a regular reader, I know Alison’s belief that gifts in the workplace should flow down and never up. I believe the scenario I recently experienced and describe below is an exception, and I’d like to get people’s opinions.

    Our department manager (managing around 10 people, including myself) announced this week that she was resigning. Another member in the department suggested we take her out to a farewell lunch, and cover her lunch as well as our own. It came out to about $20 for everyone to this, including the tip.

    I had no problem with this, and saw nothing wrong with it. However, this is my first real professional job and I lack the perspective that experience grants. What do Alison and my fellow AAM readers think?

    2. Not so Nervous Accountant*

      I think that was OK, it’s not a regular or something egregious like sending her on an exotic trip. Resignation is an event htat only happens once, not like a birthday or holidays, so I think that was OK.

      1. Pineapple Incident*

        This.

        The important part- if you can opt out by saying “my budget comes first,” and there’s truly no frown-y faces about it, then I think it’s okay. If anything happens other than “okay, see you in an hour when we get back!” then it’s less than cool.

    4. Snowglobe*

      I see no problem with gifting “upward” for things like retirement, wedding gift, new baby, etc. where you would normally provide a gift for a coworker (i.e., if your office doesn’t buy baby gifts for everyone, you shouldn’t do that for a boss). This situation falls into that category. I draw the line at things like Christmas, birthday, boss’s day, where there could be an expectation that you need to buy gifts on a regular basis.

    5. SophieChotek*

      I tend to agree since this was a farewell lunch and unlikely to happen again. as long as it was optional.
      I suppose the only issue would be…if there was now an expectation that everyone who is leaving gets taken out to a meal (or the later attendant issue of “everyone in my department got a farewell lunch when they resigned but me”), but it sounds like it wasn’t very expensive…and I know from reading this blog that many offices celebrate/mark many occasions (baby showers, birthdays, etc.) so as long as there is no pressure, perhaps in this vein.

    6. The Cosmic Avenger*

      It was probably fine, but it is situational. For example, when we had a farewell lunch for our division (a little over a dozen people), I talked with two of the other senior people to make sure that just the three of us would be covering the retiree’s lunch, because as one of the senior people in the division I knew the hourly people might be ordering just a salad or avoiding the $3 soda, as I have done earlier in my career. Maybe not, but I didn’t want to ask, and I didn’t want them to have to worry about it, so we took care of it ourselves.

      As others have said, if it’s truly optional (because a higher salary doesn’t always mean fewer money problems) and there isn’t a big economic disparity among those attending, splitting it evenly might make more sense.

    7. LKW*

      That sounds like a reasonable lunch as long as there was no pressure to attend. For some $20 is a budget stretch. If you were in a group that had a lot of turnover and this was a constant activity – it could become an issue.

    8. Lemon Zinger*

      I really dislike farewell lunches where everyone pays for the leaving employee’s food. If it really was okay to opt out, then I suppose it was all right. But many of us cannot afford to pay for our own food AND someone else’s. We look like grouches when we decline events like that, and that affects the way other perceive us. It’s not fun.

    9. Anon 2*

      I think it’s fine.

      I know that my department has bought flowers and a birthday cake when it was my boss’s birthday. We all know that she doesn’t have any other family, and if we don’t make a bit of a fuss of her the day will pass completely unnoticed. And it does depend on the year, when her last living relative died, we made a bigger fuss. People chip in if they want to, but they definitely don’t need to. And we don’t do “gifts”.

    10. zora*

      I think it really depends on the situation and the workplace. If everyone in the department is really okay with it, and feels like $20 is reasonable for them, I think it’s fine, as long as it’s really clear that it is optional, and that no one would be penalized for opting out of contributing, either directly or indirectly.

      However, even with a small group of people, it could be problematic. For example, I really like my current boss, and she manages about 10 of us. If she was retiring, I would not be okay with contributing money to a farewell lunch, she makes wwaaayyyyy more money than me, and while $20 wouldn’t destroy my budget right now, I would feel really resentful about putting even that much money towards a lunch for her. But, in the culture of my office, I’m pretty sure it wouldn’t even come up. Based on how these things have gone, the company would provide a budget to celebrate her retirement, and even if our department wanted to do something extra, I think her #2 would offer to pay to take us all out on her dime, because she also makes way more than the rest of us. No one would expect me to come up with even $5. So, it depends on the structure and culture of the workplace.

    11. crankypants*

      I’m not much on gifting up except when it is someone retiring/moving on & it is truly an opt-in kinda thing.
      This past year at the office, department heads have decided when should gift the big boss (who makes 4x as much as we lowly peons do {I do payroll…I know how much we are all paid}) for her bday, Christmas & something else. I have each time reminded them about not gifting up, get the response that oh no, it’s fine, we all want to do this .. and now they all think I’m a cheapskate and don’t like anyone. I did not participate in the holiday gift exchange (I dont’ do holiday gifts personally) but did contribute to the baby shower.
      Tired of being seen as a curmudgeon but how does one get others to understand?

    12. Another Lawyer*

      I think it’s fine if it’s no pressure and occasional. One of our most senior attorneys just had a baby and we sent a gift. Someone more senior than her asked if anyone wanted to and a few of us said yes and he took care of the order and told those of us who said yes that we were free to contribute anything up to $10 if we wanted.

    13. TootsNYC*

      I’m OK w/ gifts flowing up for major life events, and this has these extra advantages:

      • It’s really more hospitality than gift, and it’s focused on her company, not an object w/ monetary value
      • The cost is even for everyone; nobody’s giving a more expensive or less expensive gift
      • It was a suggestion for everyone, and it wasn’t terribly expensive. (It could still have been a hardship for someone, of course.)

  3. Writing Cover Letters*

    Should I reach out to an old coworker who didn’t like me to let her know I applied for a job at her new company?

    OldCompany was merged into NewCompany sometime last year and my job changed. I am now looking for a new job more in line with what I used to do. I just applied for a position at a company that looks pretty interesting and my experience aligns very nicely with what they seek. However, I pass the building frequently on my way to work, and I saw Coworker go into that building the other day. I searched her name on LinkedIn and saw that, indeed, she is now working there (with a promotion! Nice job, Coworker.)

    I always liked Coworker well enough, but I do not think she liked me very much. She always seemed a touch frosty. That is fine by me, it bothers me not whether someone likes me at work, but I now wonder whether I should drop her a line on LinkedIn to let her know that I applied for a job within her company. If HR realizes we worked together, I am sure they would reach out to her. Should I let her know ahead of time as a courtesy? There is always the chance she would encourage HR to not consider my application, but I have no idea if she dislikes me THAT much.

    2. New Window*

      Eh, I wouldn’t do it. It’s kind of like asking for a letter of recommendation, right? You only want to ask the people you’re sure would give you good recommendations. Otherwise, their lukewarm, lackluster, or straight-out negative comments can and will hurt your chances of being accepted to whatever you’re applying for.

      So I see this former coworker the same. If you aren’t 100% sure that she would put in a good word for you, it’s probably not worth the risk.

      Good luck on the job application though!

    3. Fortitude Jones*

      You’re probably way overthinking this and the coworker wasn’t thinking about you at all. Don’t let her know anything – she wasn’t a former manager who would serve as a reference, and she’s not likely in charge of the hiring decision, so reaching out to her would be pointless.

  4. Maple*

    I was here a couple weeks ago, worried about what to do if I was offered a job I really wanted but couldn’t (due to a surprise-ish move for my husband’s work) stay in for more than ~4 months. Here’s an update:

    I got the offer, and I declined it. I even told the hiring manager why. She was very grateful for my honesty and said as much, even saying “it would have been so easy for you to pretend nothing was going on”. I know I did the right thing, and honestly felt a lot of relief when I got off the phone with her.

    Now, how do I stop obsessing over how great (great, great, great, huge step up, and I GOT the offer!) a move it would have been for me? Minus the “other” move… Also, what is with temp agencies wanting your full 9-digit SSN just to sign up?? There are like two in my area that don’t require it…guess I’m going with those two.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      When you sign up with a temp agency, you are on their payroll so they need your SSN to process that/take out taxes/etc. You can probably leave it off the up front application, but when you actually go in and register, they’re going to need a W4 and I9.

      1. Maple*

        That I completely understand. What’s striking me as weird is that many of my local agencies want it even just to register – as in name, email address, SSN, upload resume – and the system won’t accept no answer or an obviously fake (all 5s, all 0s, all consecutive) number. I just don’t see why they need it before I even fill out ANY application.

        1. Jesmlet*

          Maybe it’s to verify that you’re legally authorized to work in the U.S?

          We have one at the end of our application but it’s part of a larger background check.

        2. Marisol*

          My guess is that’s how they track applicants–they open a file on you as soon as you begin the process so they want to label the file properly. But really, if you’re curious you should just ask them.

        3. Larz*

          I’m running into this as well, AND their system gets stuck in a loop where I enter my name and last four of SSN and click ‘continue’–and it comes back to the same page, asking me to enter the last four of my SSN. It’s happening in Chrome and Firefox, too. I’m fairly tech-savvy (I think), and I’d hate for my first contact with them to be reaching out to say, hey, I can’t navigate the first page of your profile creation page! :(

      2. Feeling Anonymous Today*

        When you sign up with a temp agency, they see it as you are being hired by an employer, not registering to work with them. They will need your SSN for payroll purpose and you’ll do the I9 often before you speak with someone. A good agency will let you know if they can’t place you but many will just inactivate your file after so long without a placement.

    2. Audiophile*

      I haven’t recently encountered any staffing agencies that required SSN, just the major employers. It’s generally the last piece I fill out and only if it’s absolutely required.

    3. SophieChotek*

      I am glad you feel relieved and feel like you did the right thing…but I can imagine your frustration at how you had a great offer so close into your grasp but had to decline for other reasons. Here’s hoping good karma will come your way for your move and a new job of equal par!

    4. dr_silverware*

      Glad you parted on such good terms! And maybe, re: the obsession, talk with your husband about making your career a higher priority next time this kind of decision has to be made. Explicitly trading off on that kind of this can be pretty nice!

    5. Future Analyst*

      Glad to hear you turned it down, but man, I totally understand the frustration/obsession. Hang in there!

    6. Gadget Hackwrench*

      At least for me, I’ve found “will furnish on hire” works fairly well on that line.

      1. Maple*

        Tried something similar – it’s an online registration (and only registration, no other information asked besides name, email, and SSN) and won’t accept anything but numerals. Obviously fake inputs get the red asterisk as well. This is at least five agencies in my city! They must all use the same stupid system.

        1. Gadget Hackwrench*

          AUGH. Reasons Paper Forms still have an advantage in today’s society. (and this from the IT ‘guy.’)

  5. Fortitude Jones*

    No question this week, just wanted to say how much I love profit-sharing bonuses! We got ours today, and I was able to pay off one of my student loans and another bill with money left for savings! Woot!

    Now I’m curious to see what kind of raise I get at the end of the month during my performance review.

    1. costume teapot*

      CONGRATS on paying off your loan!!! I paid one off with a retention bonus earlier this year. It is so worth it.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Thanks! I’ve made the decision that this year, all of my education and profit-sharing bonuses going forward are being applied to loans and savings – that’s it. No more trips and no more clothes. I need to get out from under this debt with a quickness so I can move to NYC.

        1. the gold digger*

          Yes! I paid off my student loans about 15 years early. I had only $13,000, but it was nine percent interest and I was not even making $50K a year.

          I paid off my house early, too. (Better bonuses :) I miss those days.) It is such a great feeling not to be in debt.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            My loan debt is absurd given what the degree was in and my current career path. That’s what I get for going to a fancy out-of-state private school I suppose.

            1. blackcat*

              I am still pissed at the college counselor at the school I worked at who regularly encouraged kids to go to fancier schools because “It will be worth it in the end.”

              As a 20-something teacher, with plenty of friends who were up to their eyeballs in student loan debt, I kept trying to tell kids NOOOOOOOOOO. 5k of expected loans per year? Fine. 10k/year? Eh, be careful. 25k/year?!?!?! Nonononono!!!!

              A soon to be graduate former student of mine recently sent me a “I should have listened to you. Ms. College counselor was full of shit when she said I’d find a job making 80k right out of undergrad with a liberal arts degree.” He has a totally reasonable job lined up already, which is great. But he’ll only making $45k, which his university career center said was reasonable for the field. Will it be worth it in the long run? Maybe, but his 20s are gonna suck.

          2. Gaia*

            I feel you, Fortitude Jones. I’m sitting on roughly $84,000 in student loans and I make $60,000 a year. I’ll never pay this crap off.

            Sigh.

            1. Fortitude Jones*

              Isn’t that such a depressing thought? There are times where I just look at my other loan balances, then look at my tax returns, and then weep – actually ugly cry. Teenagers should not be allowed to make these kinds of financial decisions. A lot of us don’t know what the hell we’re doing.

              1. Anxa*

                Yeah. I thought that you were supposed to take out the equivalent to a year’s salary.

                There’s the rub, though. You have to actually land that job. And if it takes you 2, 5, 10 years to do that, then…

                Mine were also very modest, but they are still growing, even at a low interest. One year of the same expenses I have now with one entry level job in my field, and it’s all over. But when you’re a teen you don’t necessarily understand how hard it is to get that kind of a job.

                1. Fortitude Jones*

                  There’s the rub, though. You have to actually land that job. And if it takes you 2, 5, 10 years to do that, then…

                  This is what killed me – I graduated in ’09 and didn’t get a real career until 2014. I was able to pay off one other school loan with the meager salary from one of my little temp jobs, but still – if I had gotten into the company I’m currently working for now back in ’09, I would be halfway (or maybe even two-thirds of the way) finished paying these loans off.

                2. Anxa*

                  Fortitude-

                  That’s what’s killing me, too. I thought it was kind of reasonable to expect something like a $23K job out of school within a year, and making 30K after a few years. I knew my field didn’t pay much, but I didn’t think it would be so hard to get a foot in the door.

                  I have watched high school students get recruited for STEM programs making $10/hour doing lab chores, etc. I of course don’t qualify but I practically drool at the prospect of having that kind of opportunity, but when I look for that kind of work it’s either all unpaid or wants more experience (I have <2 years) or I just don't hear back.

                  I also graduated around then (Dec '08)

              2. Elizabeth H.*

                Idk, sometimes I feel like the only person in the world who is not bothered by student loan debt. I think of it like a mortgage, it doesn’t make me feel weighed down or guilty like consumer or credit card debt and I usually struggle to understand why people are so bothered by it – I guess I can imagine it if you regret your education itself. I definitely wouldn’t have changed anything, paying off student loans seems like a normal part of life for me.

                1. Elizabeth H.*

                  That said, the interest rate does absolutely suck and is frustrating. If I had some situation where I had a lump sum payment or roll it into something with a lower interest rate (like if I got married and we could pay this off in favor of a down payment on a house or something, assuming the mortgage rate was still more advantageous) I definitely would.

          3. Adlib*

            I’m always curious how people who paid off their house early did it. My parents did it ages ago and were able to pay cash for their current place. My SIL almost had hers paid off before they moved to TX. My husband & I are in a place where we can start thinking about doing that, but I’m not sure the best way to go about it. Suggestions? (If anyone sees this, that is, since it’s Monday.)

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Thanks! So far, I’ve paid off two – sadly, I have three more to go *sigh*. I could punch myself in the face for how much I took out for a simple bachelors.

        1. Jean*

          I managed to make it through the bachelor’s with any student loans but my master’s degree and another unfinished master’s mean that I probably will never pay my loans off. I’m super mad at myself for taking all those loans out. (I probably will be able to have them forgiven after 10 years through an income-based repayment plan b/c I work for nonprofits or governments, so at least I won’t be paying them back with my social security check.)

          1. Snarky Librarian*

            Be very very certain you are in the correct repayment plan for the Public Student Loan Forgiveness program! I thought I had set up everything properly and took my loan service provider’s word for it that I was in the right repayment plan. Spoiler alert: 8 years into the program I learned that I wasn’t in the specific repayment plan that qualifies for forgiveness and none of the payments I had made counted. So after many years of government service, instead of having the balance of my loans paid off for me in two years, I now get to continue to make payments for many years to come! Learn from my mistakes :)

            1. Fortitude Jones*

              OMG, that’s awful. You should have filed something with your state’s attorney general’s office. Every time Sallie Mae screwed up my account, I’d file something, they’d investigate, and then I’d get my account fixed (the money paid applied correctly) and a credit towards my payment for the inconvenience. These people play too much.

            2. Anxa*

              If it makes you feel better, I’ve got several year of public service but it’s all part-time. Yeah, it means that I don’t have to work as hard, but it also means 8 years of a never ending job searching and never feeling like a real adult (yet having the responsibilities of one).

              I haven’t cracked the FPL since graduation and work for PSLF employers but never have been able to count that work.

            3. Jean*

              That is a really good point. I’m pretty sure I am, but I will follow up with them just in case. I can actually start sending in some of my paperwork that shows my employment and I need to get started on that.

    3. Badmin*

      Congrats!!! At the risk of sounding stupid, what are some industries where that is the norm?

      I have worked mostly in academia and non profit and while I am happy when my friends get awesome bonuses, I think of what I could do/accomplish with that dough! May be something to look for in my next position.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Thank you! I know finance sees this a lot (banks and investment firms), and I’m in insurance/risk management. I’m not sure about other industries and non-profits though.

        1. The Cosmic Avenger*

          You know, I was talking with an investment advisor about paying yourself first in order to learn to live on less and budget better, and he said that his huge investment firm pays a decent salary but then gives generous, regular quarterly bonuses, and he thought that maybe it was to promote better budgeting habits in their employees. It’s a great way to force some extra financial discipline, which for some people might be the difference between being an average saver and spender, and being a diligent saver and smart spender.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Man, I wish we got quarterly bonuses. One of my former coworker’s husbands was applying to an investment position within the financial institution he works in where they give all employees in the department $4k quarterly bonuses. I almost fell out of my seat when she told me that.

      2. Ana Eats Everything*

        This is common in real estate investment, too. :) I work in commercial property management, but my firm also does investment, and everyone in the company (less than 200 people) gets a little bonus when we have a good quarter. Congratulations, FJ!

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Thanks! My current division’s niche is in commercial property (more on the residential side, but we also have commercial buildings as well), so should I decide to move out of my current field, I know where I’m going :)

      3. emma*

        My husband gets bonuses in engineering. Admin non-engineers at his firm also get bonuses, but they’re smaller.

      4. Jadelyn*

        Same – I love working at a nonprofit, but man it would be nice to have the occasional bonus available.

      5. Association Person*

        I work in associations, and the last two associations I’ve worked for has had a bonus program, even though both were classified as non-profits.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Thank you, it really does – I’m nowhere near done paying for school, but I feel like I’m making actual progress now. And my company seems to be trying to set me up for success in that regard, so hopefully between this day job and my writing, I can pay all of my loans off within the next five years. That’s the goal anyway.

    5. Bad Candidate*

      Nice. We got our bonus today too. No where near being able to pay off student loans though. :)

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        To be fair, the loan balance was low and some of my income tax money went towards the payoff as well :)

        I never thought I’d be so glad to have so much money taken out of my checks each pay period, lol. My refund was nice.

    6. Bigglesworth*

      Congratulations!!! We’re working on my husband’s student debt and we’ve paid off a little over $10,000 in 2 years on extremely low salaries, but completing those milestones gives a lot of satisfaction.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        That’s amazing if you guys are doing it on low salaries – I was only able to pay off a small one on my temp salary. That $10,000 you paid was what I paid in interest over all of my loans. A mess.

    7. Chaordic One*

      Good for you!

      Back at Dysfunctional Teapots, Ltd. the day before the profit-sharing bonuses were distributed was fraught with fear. It was the day that several people would usually be let go so the company didn’t have to pay them a bonus.

  6. No Funds, No Job*

    I’ll soon be heading into the work force of the USA. My work is fairly flexible that I could pick enter into a variety of different work environments. However, in our current political climate, I keep hearing of funding be cut to various things that make me nervous about applying to those places. Like I know several people studying to be teachers who fear for finding jobs. So are there fields I should be avoiding because they might be in danger? Education, museums, environmental sciences, scientific research, non-profits, etc: what fields should new employees not be jumping into?

    (This is not to start a political debate; it is public knowledge that certain areas are getting funding cut. I just genuinely want to know what’s in danger so that I don’t sign onto a ship that is doomed in the next four years.)

    1. Creag an Tuire*

      It isn’t so much “fields” you should avoid, but perhaps be leery of specific employers which receive a lot of funding through the Feds this year. (And that might be good advice in the first year of any new POTUS, not just this one, as you can expect any one new to bring their own priorities to the budget.)

      2. Claudia M.*

        This. So accurate.

        Coming from 10+ years of State govt. work here. This is so factual, and it bleeds to every level of local govt.

        Also, the comment was very well and neutrally written. Thank you for that, Creag. :)

      4. NPDBJ*

        Yes.

        I worked at a state agency a couple of years ago, and the newly-elected Democratic governor came in and whacked a bunch of non-permanent positions on Jan. 22. A bunch of people I knew had jobs on Friday and not on the following Tuesday.

        1. NPDBJ*

          My point isn’t to blame Democrats, just to point out that Democrats can and do that kind of thing as well.

    2. jm*

      Actually, in my experience with K-12 education, we can’t find enough quality teachers — especially special education, math and science. The district I work in is actually working really hard to find ways to attract teachers (the easiest way would be to pay more, but the starting salary is in the high $30s and probably won’t change much, but we have had success with offering $10K bonuses to attract teachers to hard-to-staff schools or positions).

      1. Creag an Tuire*

        It’s also worth pointing out that even if the Federal Department of Education and all of its funding dissolves tomorrow, that will only impact certain school districts receiving federal support; most districts are funded primarily by local property taxes. So YMMV very much depending on where you live.

        (Although OP also said s/he’s “flexible” so I’m assuming s/he’s not a teacher or otherwise specifically credentialed. OP, if I’m misreading you and you’re asking for advice on what field to study, I’d say not to worry so much about headlines and, with a very few exceptions, to just do what you’ll enjoy and be good at, because 2-3 years are an eternity in both politics and economics.)

        1. A Plain-Dealing Villain*

          Good points! K-12 will not likely be affected for some time by any policy changes. Higher education, however, is always the first thing to be cut when revenue is low, which it currently is in many states because of the increases in tax credits.

      3. zora*

        Look at your district specifically (or the areas you want to live in the future) before you decide on K-12, though. Some areas are desperate for teachers and figuring out how to bring them in, but other areas have a surplus of teachers because everyone wants to live there. Be careful about that.

        1. Audiophile*

          Yes, a few years ago, in my area, there were a ton of subs who couldn’t find FT employment.

          I think the area has improved since then, thankfully. Look at your local school district and schools and see what jobs are available.

        2. dawbs*

          Yes, I work in education and I’ve found that there are districts desperate for teachers…and they tend to be districts that are hard to get people to move into/live in.
          An opening at a ‘good’ school can have literally hundreds of qualified applicants.

      4. Anxa*

        I wish I hadn’t screwed up my college GPA so much. I don’t qualify for teaching programs, but I’m a part-time teacher of sorts and teach/tutor science to community college students. I have no formal education education, but I’ve worked in after school programs and student services and I do like to think it takes some sort of skill to do what I do, and that a lot of it would transfer. My students beg me to apply to be their instructors. K12 sounds like so much more work, but the pay would be soo, soo much better.

        If teaching programs weren’t so hard-line about turning away applicants who struggled with health issues in college I think that would open things up.

        That said, I do know two underemployed math educators desperate to get into K12 with master’s in math and that have had no success breaking out of the tutoring trap.

    4. Grits McGee*

      This is really going to be depend on region, desired income level, subject specialties, etc. Most of the fields and institutions that you mentioned have diverse funding streams (state and local gov grants, private foundations, corporate backers/donors, grassroots support, etc). If you are worried, the most practical approach would be looking at the revenue streams of individual companies- organizations that rely on federal contracts and grants may be more vulnerable, though, again, that’s really dependent on the field and specific projects.

    5. Volunteer Coordinator in NOVA*

      If you’re interested in going the non-profit route, I would be looking to see where their funding is coming from. If it’s coming from the Fed, thats something to consider as their are lots of talks of cutting social service funding. I’m currently in housing and we’re all anxiously watching what’s happening at HUD right now as the trickle down effect could pretty serious.

    6. The Not Mad But Sometimes Irritable Scientist*

      It’s really a lot more granular than that. Like, I’m not worried about my job, which is in the regulatory compliance side of environmental science, but some of my friends in academia are worried about grants. It’s going to depend on the particular job and field, not on entire fields or categories.

      1. Formica Dinette*

        Agreed. And we simply don’t know what some of the impact will be. For example, if the American Health Care Act passes, funding for community health centers will increase. However, fewer people will eligible for health insurance (whether through Medicaid or other avenues). At this point, I’m not sure anyone knows the net effect that will have on jobs at community health centers.

  7. Not so Nervous Accountant*

    I had a lot to say and a lot to ask but right now the most important thing is that

    right now I just want to cry (ok not really Im just tired)

    and sleep

    oh glorious sleep

    I’d say happy Friday but we’re working both days. Only thing getting me through is that we’re ALL in this together and it’ll end in a short bit (39 days to be exact). Just have to remind myself and repeat that “this is normal.”

    the more and more I get through this week and this season, the more I’m determined to push for cash bonuses for all of us.

    Seriously….any advice on how to approach that? Last week I got the sense that I wasn’t being unreasonable in asking for this and I honestly don’t think I am, but now I need to know how to approach it.

    1. Rat in the Sugar*

      I don’t have experience with asking for a bonus, but as a fellow accountant, I just want to say hang in there!! Make sure you’re taking care of yourself at home as much as you can and see if you can get a vacation after the season’s over!

      1. Not so Nervous Accountant*

        Are you a tax accountant too?? I’d love to just vent with other TA about tax season stuff!

        It truly is hard to do self care while working long hours.

        1. Rat in the Sugar*

          No, not right now, sorry. :( Right now I’m working as a staff accountant at a company with six of us the in department including the boss, so all tax work goes to my coworker. Now that year end is over things are mercifully calm for me right now.

          I did start my first job working in a tax office, though, so I can definitely commiserate. Their receptionist had a health scare and quit suddenly, so their office manager gave me a frantic call in February (I knew her personally and she knew that I had just graduated). It was an absolute unorganized flustercluck of working nights and weekends, and on April 15th I had to drive downtown speeding the whole way to the one post office that was open at 9pm so I could get everything posted by the deadline. I knew they wanted me to come back to the office but they hadn’t specifically asked and my phone was dead, so I just drove home crying in my car. I literally woke up with nightmares that I had accidentally left an extension request on the scanner and not mailed it. I know how you feel, friend. Hang in there and try to calm yourself in the evening so your sleep is of good quality. Meditation tapes used to help me somewhat, though they didn’t stop the bad dreams. :(

          1. AMT27*

            I had regular nightmares through tax season, and they were always the same – I would be adding tons of receipts on my adding machine, and could never get the total to match…. I would just see streams of numbers in my dreams. All. Night. Long.
            I would wake up exhausted, feeling like I had never even left work.

            1. Not so Nervous Accountant*

              I don’t have nightmares, but I have tax season dreams all the time whether they are related to clients or tax forms (sometimes I’ll see a brand new form in my dream) or just randomly sitting at my desk and talking to coworkers.

    2. AMT27*

      I did three tax seasons in a small CPA firm, and never ever want to do it again… the first year was tremendous fun. The second year was ok. By the third I was fighting tears on the way to work every day. It’s a long, hard slog through tax season, but it will end!!!! I wish you luck on surviving through it – and really hope you can push for those bonuses!

    3. Marisol*

      I am not sure I can be of help, since where I work, raises and bonuses are negotiated every year at the performance review as a matter of course, so broaching the subject out of the blue isn’t something I have experience in. HOWEVER, I will give it a shot.

      First, I’d make an exhaustive list of all the reasons my team deserves a raise, focusing on measurable, concrete facts. I’d study that list and hone it down to talking points. I’d know my argument inside and out. Then I’d say something like, “Boss, it occurred to me that this year the team took on a 40 percent increase in our work load, ten new accounts, and trimmed overhead by twenty five percent, [or whatever your talking points are] and given that, I think we deserve a bonus of five thousand dollars each. What do you think?” I supposed you’d want to anticipate pushback–why might the boss say no, and what are your counterarguments, as part of your preparation. So when you get the first no, you can counter.

      I might be missing something but to my mind it’s really just that simple. Basically, this is a calm, factual discussion, one that is ultimately based on market realities, with the employer weighing the cost of the bonus against the cost of replacing disenchanted employees who quit because they are undercompensated. Both parties know that ultimately, that’s what’s driving the negotiation–what will it talk to prevent good employees from walking? Not that you’re going to threaten anything, but it’s good to keep in mind what’s at stake for both parties. If you feel that not getting a bonus won’t have much impact on whether or not your team decides to stay or leave, then you know you don’t have much leverage.

      So I’d just have some frank, polite straight talk on the subject.

    4. Merci Dee*

      Used to work tax seasons when I first graduated from college, but I (mercifully) decided to focus on audit work. First, because it didn’t require crazy tax season hours. Second, because I had an unexpected knack for it in college, and I’m nosy enough that I love digging through people’s records and trying to find their secrets. :)

      Traveling for audit jobs was great while it lasted and I really loved it. But, now that I’m a single parent, I’m glad I have a more stable office position where I can still use my audit skills.

      What do I work with now? Taxes . . . . (but sales/use taxes, so it’s a totally different environment). And fixed assets. Because sales/use taxes and fixed assets naturally go together, right?

      1. nonegiven*

        idk, My niece is assurance staff for one of the big 4 and is super stressed with long hours sometimes. That doesn’t even count defending the audit in front of the SEC.

    5. Pixel*

      Canadian accountant here – hang in there!
      Self-care, pace yourself, and don’t forget to step outside once or twice a day just to look at that shiny thing in the sky and the green things that seem to pop all around! What helps me a lot is planning my post-tax-season mini getaway and the summer jaunt to a major US city I’ve been aching to visit for a while.

      Chin up, cheer up. It will be over before you know it.

    1. Pineapple Incident*

      Yeesh!

      There are some truly awful ideas in there about how to get people to respond to your application.

    2. Rachel 2: Electric Boogaloo*

      You can contact the employer up to three times in two weeks! “Can I have the job now?” “How about now?” I’m sure employers just love that!

      1. Collie*

        That was especially striking to me. I sat here with my mouth agape for a good ten seconds.

      2. Huddled over tea*

        As an internal recruiter, if I got three follow-up messages in two weeks for every candidate awaiting a reply, I’d have literally a thousand emails a week.

        Sometimes I want to tell candidates I just filter CVs and guide hiring managers through the process, I don’t actually have any control over the timeline so please, for the love of god, don’t chase me about your application.

    4. AMT*

      Following up beyond a thank-you note is madness. What employer decides to offer someone a job, but doesn’t contact them? “Oh, thanks for calling! We wanted to hire you, so we decided the best way to make an offer was to ghost you.”

    5. Collie*

      I appreciate that, at the end of the article, we were treated to this line:

      Waites ultimately wasn’t offered the job. However, the hiring manager did send him a thoughtful email outlining exactly why they thought he wasn’t the best fit.

      No, really? /s

      I suspect the hiring manager just felt especially bad for this person and provided feedback based on that alone. Maybe not, but…

    6. Chaordic One*

      I suppose this will happen until such time as companies find that they’ve wasted a lot of their own time because the people they’ve interviewed have gone on to take jobs elsewhere while they were dinking around for whatever reason.

  9. hermit crab*

    Ugh, it’s annual performance review season and there is so much internal politicking.

    To make matters worse, this year we have to give ourselves numerical scores on our self-evaluations. (Previously, we just wrote narrative/bullet-point self-evals; it’s an annoying task but I’m OK with it because we all do project-based work for multiple project managers, and the self-eval is meant to help your staff manager understand what you achieved this year.) This year the narrative parts of the self-eval are being emphasized less in favor of the numerical ratings. HR says that the self-ratings are just “discussion points” for you and your staff manager, but yeah right. The electronic review system shows your self-ratings and your manager’s ratings of you right next to each other when the reviews go to upper management, who then decide on raises/promotions.

    Lately, I’ve been thinking a lot about gender equity in my industry and how to present myself in a less stereotypically female way as I try to get myself a raise. It is SO hard. Where I work (which is way better than many companies in a lot of ways!) we already have a gender wage gap issue and a lack-of-women-in-senior-leadership issue and I feel like this self-scoring thing is NOT a step in the right direction.

    1. Damn it, Hardison!*

      Writing annual performance reviews (as an employee and a manager) is really draining. For the self-scoring, don’t sell yourself short (women often do) and have examples to back it up, specifically not just what you did but the impact of what you did (saved $$, improved customer response time, etc.) Good luck!

    2. krysb*

      I just did my peer review and my self-review yesterday. For the peer review, I feel like I need to take notes throughout to the year so I can give examples of good/bad behavior. For my self-review, I felt gross rating myself high, but I know my work is of a high caliber, so there was definitely an internal struggle between reality and humility.

    3. Larz*

      Ugh. I run into some uncertainty about self evals too, but for weirder reasons. My boss is kind of childish in that she is desperate for my approval (??), even going so far as to report to me what she did and say “Tell me I did good!” (For some context, she’s full-time and has been in the biz for 30+ years, I’m part-time, 10 years experience, been at this job for 3 years, so I find it just inexplicable that she’s coming to ME for praise.) Where it gets complicated is that, should I ever mull over some area where I could improve, she will step all over herself to agree with me, like, “Oh yeah, you’re really terrible at [thing I considered getting additional training in]!” So my self-evals have to be basically “I am good at everything, no problems here” or else I risk her deciding I’m permanently weak in some area.

      The worst part is, the evals don’t even have any impact on our jobs. Literally no one gets raises or bonuses. Everyone gets paid the same regardless of qualifications or quality of work, and if the company decides we get a raise, we all get it. The evals are essentially worthless.

    4. Fortitude Jones*

      My company is doing away with written reviews altogether (we also had to score ourselves numerically) and are moving to bi-monthly check-ins to discuss performance. I’m grateful I know longer have to try to write glowing things about myself and grade my own work (I’m much harder on myself than my managers ever are), but I’m skeptical that our raises will be in line with our performance without the rating system in place. They had a pilot program for this last year with a handful of divisions, and HR claims they were able to make it work successfully, but we’ll see.

      1. Bibliovore*

        Writing my self appraisal today. The thing is…
        Admin is seriously reluctant to award anything except meets expectations.
        Supervisor has noted that even if you are exceeding expectations in some areas of your position that one would need to “exceed expectations” in over 80% of their job description with bullet pointed evidentiary support to even be considered.
        My job description is three pages. My supervisor insists that the self eval not exceed two pages.
        According to the supervisor, the high bar for “exceeds expectations” is due to that we have high expectations for our work and therefore no one should think of “meets expectations” as a C. Every year I argue my rating and receive a higher one. I sense my supervisor’s exasperation.

        Yet I do.
        On one hand the merit raise differential will be about .5 of salary. The usual for meets is 2. or 2.5.
        On the other hand, I am already highly compensated in comparison with my peers. (our salaries are public, I am third highest paid in my rank)
        On the other hand when I achieve tenure (most likely in June) I will receive a significant raise.
        On the other hand, I am only 10 years from retirement and know that every increase, increases the next percentage.

        I am ambivalent. Do I stay true to form fighting for every dime? And it is a pool so that every dime I get means someone else will be denied. (In past positions,I have agreed not to accept an increase so as to save another position or give an increase for parity. I am not in the position to do so today)

        Will I ever not tie my self worth etc to a performance rating? (In my previous position at another institution my rating was always the equivalent of she is a “rockstar”, there is no rating high enough)

        If you were me would you spend the time on the performance eval?
        Would you fight for every dime?
        Would you let it go this year?

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          I am not in the position to do so today.

          This is key – you’re not in the position not to advocate for yourself this time around. Don’t feel guilty; go get that money! I never really spent a lot of time on my performance evaluations (this company is the first one where I’ve had to do them, and the first year, my manager ended up rewriting mine to make me sound a million times better than I actually am), and if you think you can get away with a copy and paste job like what many of my colleagues do, you might want to try that if it ultimately makes no difference anyway.

    5. Ann O.*

      This is everything that’s wrong with performance reviews. They are the worst, and they definitely disadvantage people with humbler personalities.

      Also, there are never rubrics. When I reported for the same job to the (wonderful amazing) manager who hired me, I underranked myself compared to where she put me. When I used her criteria while reporting to my current manager (who I do not work as well with), I overranked myself. This was not simply because I don’t work as well with my current manager because my end review was apparently quite high, although I didn’t fully understand that either.

      I am perhaps naive or overly demanding, but I feel a good manager should be generally aware of what/how their reports are doing and self-evaluations should only be needed if a report is pursuing a raise or arguing for a higher evaluation.

      1. hermit crab*

        I think narrative self-evals, e.g., a page or two of “year in review” bullet points, can be fine. (In my case, my staff manager is actually located 500+ miles away and we only work together on a few small things, so there’s bound to be stuff she doesn’t know about my performance even with regular check-ins.) But the number thing kinda pisses me off. It’s just so unnecessary and everyone is stressing out about it.

  10. I'm working with someone who despises me*

    I’m hoping the AAM commentariat can help with this one. I’m in a huge mess. (I apologize for the length.)

    I’ve been with my current company for eight months, and up until recently everything was great. But right around Christmas, one of my colleagues (Cersei) stopped speaking to me except when she absolutely had to, and eventually (a few weeks ago) stopped talking to me altogether. Cersei and I are equal in the org chart and report to the same person (Wakeen, the owner of the company), but have completely different duties.

    I honestly have no idea why she stopped speaking to me, because she never told me there was a problem. She got chillier and chillier and according to Wakeen, it’s because there’s a “personality conflict” and she feels threatened by me. But Cersei has never told me directly what her problem is, even when I’ve explicitly asked for feedback, which I’ve done on at least two occasions.

    Since she flat-out refused to talk when I asked most recently, I had no choice but to go to Wakeen and ask him for advice. His “solution” was for me to just completely avoid her (go through him for anything work related and completely ignore her the rest of the time).

    This does not sit well with me. Obviously, Alison’s advice to Wakeen would be to tell my coworker that she needs to get along with me and be reasonably courteous. Unfortunately, since he’s not willing to do that, my options are pretty limited. The job is otherwise great, but I can’t thrive in an environment like this.

    So I’ve started looking for a new job but that’s not so easy around here (took me about six months to find this one). My questions for the wise readers:

    1) How do I explain why I’m looking to leave after only eight months? I’m trying to figure out how to explain that it’s a cultural mismatch, which ultimately it is, but I feel like eight months is a long time to stay somewhere only to figure that out now. But I don’t want to go into the drama.

    2) How do I deal with Cersei until I can find a new job???? Not only is this killing my morale to the point where my productivity is suffering, it’s so nasty to have someone around who openly hates me so much that my self esteem is taking a hit too. Even though this is pretty obviously Cersei’s issue, it feels intensely personal and it’s hard not to take it as such.

    I’m a faithful reader of AAM and everything in me wants to address this with her directly, but I’ve been explicitly told not to do that and of course I don’t want to get fired before I have something else lined up.

    Any advice?

    1. Katie the Fed*

      Is her silent treatment making it more difficult to do your job, or is it just annoying you? If it’s impacting your job in any way, you need to bring that to Wakeen.

      Otherwise, deal with her by being excessively polite and friendly. It’ll drive her crazy and give you strange satisfaction.

      1. I'm working with someone who despises me*

        Our work doesn’t overlap a ton but it overlaps enough to make this hugely inconvenient, yes. I personally find Wakeen’s solution that I just ignore her and go through him for work related stuff to be very unworkable. But that’s his call to make.

        Trust me, I’ve given the “kill her with kindness” thing a solid try. Doesn’t work. She wouldn’t make eye contact with me or acknowledge me in any way, even if I was only saying good morning. Now that I’m being explicitly told to outright ignore her, the silence between us is beyond chilly. It’s hostile and extremely distracting. You could cut the tension with a knife and it’s starting to make me physically ill.

        1. Natalie*

          If it helps, don’t think of “killing her with kindness” as a way to somehow change her mind. You’re not going to, so let that go as much as you possibly can. Be extra cheerful and friendly at work for your benefit, not hers.

          1. I'm working with someone who despises me*

            Wakeen has asked me not to talk to her at all. Not even to say hello.

            Just to underscore how much he means that – we have two bathrooms in our office. One is in the hallway (the guy’s bathroom) and the other is in Cersei’s office. Wakeen told me to start using the guy’s bathroom so as to give Cersei as much space as possible.

            1. Emi.*

              What? Wakeen is way, way off his nut. You realize that, right? It’s not just a cultural mismatch, because “totally unreasonable and refuses to manage” is a character flaw, not a culture.

              1. I'm working with someone who despises me*

                Yup, that’s becoming increasingly obvious and that’s why I’m looking to leave rather than stay and try to make this work :-)

                I understand why “try to make it work” sounds reasonable from the outside but it’s really gone beyond that now. I have to look out for my own well being here because it’s very clear that Wakeen isn’t interested in managing.

                (He’s a really nice guy and I like working for him very much. Prior to this, I’d have called him the best manager I’ve ever had. He is very open to new ideas and feedback. But he doesn’t like conflict. And avoiding conflict is, unfortunately, pretty much a management dealbreaker for me.)

                1. Pixel*

                  Ouch. I feel for you so, so much. I have gone through something somewhat similar, although not at the same level of nastiness. Just frostiness, sniggering, cliquishness, exclusion (in general and one particular scathing incident of all the female staff at the office organising a going-away party to a co-worker, to which I was not invited). Still, it wasn’t close to the silent treatment you are getting. This is horrible, Wakeen the Non-Confrontational sounds like a terrible manager, and I hope you’ll find your way out of there sooner rather than later.

            2. LKW*

              That’s one of the most ridiculous things I’ve heard in a while. I think it’s time to have a come to jeebus talk with Wakeen. If he, the owner, thinks this is acceptable behavior, then what else is he avoiding?

              I think you need to leave and tell Wakeen your decision wasn’t because Cersei is an immature ass (because she is) but rather that his leadership was lacking to resolve the issue above board.

              1. I'm working with someone who despises me*

                That’s exactly what I intend to tell him. But I need a new job first. I’m not in a position where I can afford to be unemployed right now.

            3. Parenthetically*

              That is completely ridiculous. You should not have to use the men’s room to avoid a prickly, touchy, rude person voluntarily — much less at the instruction of a supervisor!! Who is above Wakeen? This is a HUGE, HUGE failure of management on Wakeen’s part. “Getting along with colleagues” and “being polite and cordial” and “not giving colleagues the silent treatment” are like 101-level requirements for every job. The fact that he’s refusing to coach her on this stuff, while actively shifting the burden of dealing with her to you is completely beyond the pale.

              1. I'm working with someone who despises me*

                No one. Wakeen owns the company. That’s why this has turned into a “leave over it” issue for me.

              2. Jadelyn*

                We actually let someone go once because she refused to interact cordially with a coworker she disliked. There was literally copies of emails and write-ups in her file that were about her manager saying “I need for you to just say “good morning” and “good night” when you pass each other in the halls coming and going,” and this employee refusing to do even that. So she got fired. Which is what should be happening with Cersei.

                1. I'm working with someone who despises me*

                  Uh yeah. Honestly, if I managed Cersei and she was pulling this on someone else, she’d likely have been let go by now. After reading most of AAM archives, I actually feel quite confident that I would know what to do and be willing to do it. Especially since I now know how it feels to endure it firsthand.

                2. LQ*

                  (I’ll admit that if someone wanted to fire me over not saying hello and good night and hi in the halls to someone I’d be furiously mad. I interact with hundreds of people a day. I’d spend more time saying Hi Bye Hi Bye Hi Bye to people than doing my job. I do what I can to be pleasant and I’ve managed to trick people into thinking I’m not the least personable person around. But there are people I really like that I don’t stop and say Hi Bye to every time in the hall because that would take my whole day! Not everyone should have to Hi Bye every time they pass someone. Also I have an image of me wandering up and down the halls saying good morning to everyone and Hi to everyone and then getting to my desk doing 2 things and starting the good by rounds.

                  I totally think that not being cordial is a fireable offense, especially when that means won’t do work stuff, and I assume that the HiBye was a tiny tiny piece of it. Cersei is definitely in the she’s refusing to do her job part of cordiality, which is where it really matters as work.)

                3. Jadelyn*

                  @LQ – oh it was definitely a lot more than just the refusing to greet her thing. The greeting part was just the “you won’t even agree to conduct yourself with the bare minimum of polite interaction with this person” icing on the “we’re going to have to fire you if you can’t grow up and resolve your work disagreements like a functioning adult” cake.

                  More specifically, the greeting issue was that this employee would happily greet everyone else she saw, then pointedly ignore the hated coworker even if the coworker said “hi” to her first. Like, if she passed a half dozen people all coming in together and her nemesis was in that group, she would say “Hi Mallory! Hi Lana! Hi Pam! Hi Krieger! Hi Cheryl!” and then pointedly not say hi to the one coworker. That sort of passive-aggressive rudeness thing.

              3. Observer*

                “Getting along with colleagues” and “being polite and cordial” and “not giving colleagues the silent treatment” are like 101-level requirements for every job.

                This is the kind of thing meant by “Everything I needed to know I learned in kindergarten.”

                This is is SO crazy that I wonder if there is not something else going on that Wakeen doesn’t want to share. Maybe a misguided “accommodation”?

            4. EddieSherbert*

              Wait, What?! Please tell me these are unisex bathrooms.. He’s not telling you to use the other gender’s bathroom, right?! What if someone else is in there and the other bathroom is empty? Can you use the other one or do you have to wait?

              That’s SUPER weird.

              1. I'm working with someone who despises me*

                Oh yeah, they’re unisex. I should have mentioned that. We actually work in a house, not a traditional office. But still. The guy’s bathroom tends to be kinda gross and I feel like I’m being punished for Cersei’s inability to control her emotions, whereas she gets rewarded for same by having her own private bathroom. Might be petty but that’s how it feels.

                We’re in the process of getting a new bathroom, so at least this piece won’t last much longer.

            5. Jadelyn*

              I really, really, really hope we’re talking about single-occupancy restrooms here. I mean, either way it’s beyond absurd, but this is creeping me right out and the only thing making it slightly less heinous of an abdication of his responsibilities is the possibility that it’s a single-occupancy room that you wouldn’t actually have to be *sharing with* men at the same time.

              1. I'm working with someone who despises me*

                Yeah, it’s single occupancy (we work in a house). Still, the guy’s bathroom tends to be a little gross. Nothing I couldn’t handle if there were a legitimate reason, but it pisses me off to avoid the nicer restroom because of THIS.

            6. Natalie*

              Whoa, what?

              Okay, since you’re not super concerned about salvaging this job long term, what if you push back with Wakeen and just refuse to go along with his dumb ideas?
              “I’m afraid it’s completely untenable for me to use the men’s restroom and never speak directly to the finance department. Let me know when you’ve come up with a workable plan.” and then just keep speaking in her presence. (the nerve!)

              I mean, at this point Wakeen seems pretty spineless so it’s not likely he’d fire you. And you could collect unemployment in that case at least.

              1. Parenthetically*

                Yeah, this is pretty gutsy but I think since she’s planning to leave anyway, maybe this is the way to go. Plus refusing to walk on eggshells around a prickly, irritable, rude person is kind of a fun game.

            7. Katie the Fed*

              Wakeen couldn’t manage his way out of a paper bag. What a ridiculous way to handle this. Good luck getting out.

            8. Marisol*

              Tell him no. You’re a woman and you’re going to use the woman’s bathroom. He’s the boss but that doesn’t mean you can’t push back on unreasonable policy.

          2. Emi.*

            Yes! You’re not acting cheerful because it will make *her* cheerful; you’re acting cheerful is better for *you*.

            1. dawbs*

              yes, Brilliant. cheerfully oblivious.

              I totally should not admit this, but, I was a CSR at a AWFUL company that was in the midst of bankruptcy once upon a time.
              A lot of our customers hated us–and a lot of them had very good reason to hate us–they were paying for a service we kept screwing up.
              I was always polite and professional. BUt when people were awful/rude/swearing and screaming at me, I took a small amount of fierce glee in being infuriatingly cheerfully oblivious with them.
              Saccharine sweet and over the top cheerful.
              It INCENSED them. And I was quite OK w/ that.

              It can be a game. “Hi nancy” *no answer* *put tally mark on white board*
              “Bye Nancy” *no answer* *2nd tallmark on white board*

              (Once upon a time, when I was a small child, someone wise in my life realized I was shaping up to be a vindictive kid, and, instead of telling me to turn the other cheek because it was what I ought to do, they made me learn Proverbs 25:21-22 ” If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink: For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the Lord shall reward thee.”

              The image of coals of fire was way more enjoyable as a kid than turning the other cheek.
              Maybe harness the subtle rage of the inner 7th grader :))

          3. The Cosmic Avenger*

            It’s also a good way to demonstrate to bystanders that this is totally her issue. It keeps the focus on her as being unreasonable and the source of the issue.

            1. Bangs Not Fringe*

              I totally agree. I would think that from another coworker’s or client’s perspective ignoring her back only reflects poorly on you. They wont have the insight you’re doing as directed.

              Continuing to be positive and professional seems like the best bet to protect your own image.

      2. SophieChotek*

        Plus it sounds like Waken knows about it and his solution (which sounds like he is conflict-avoidant) is to go through him. If you can continue to be polite, etc., and since this really is all on Cersei, perhaps as this continues he’ll realize he needs to manage and get Cersei to work this out/stop impacting your job (and his time.) In an ideal world, you shouldn’t have to consider leaving a job you hitherto liked, simply because for mysterious reasons Cersei has taken a dislike to you.

      4. Natalie*

        That’s what I was going to suggest – I would talk to Cersei the way I talk to my dog, where I fill in his part of the conversation in an exaggerated tone of voice. Probably don’t ask her if she’s the best puppy in the world, though.

        1. On Fire*

          LOL. I can just see it:
          “Who’s a good Cersei? Who’s a good Cersei?
          …
          Not you, @!#$%^&*()_+”

      5. MuseumChick*

        Yes this. When it effect the work, your boss and say something like, “I’m working on project X but, as we’ve talked about, Cersei is refusing to speak to me, this is holding up the project. How would you like me to handle this?”

        Once it because a big enough of a pain for him, he might do something.

    2. Anonymouse 1*

      I am by no means an expert, but if you like the work and the manager knows what is going on and this is the only issue that you are having in this workplace, I don’t know that you should leave it. Just because one co-worker has decided that they want to employ childish tactics, doesn’t mean you need to leave the position.

      1. k*

        I think the bigger problem is that the manager knows…and is doing nothing about it. A big part of a manager’s job is to, well, MANAGE people. If he can’t do that it would make me skeptical of the workplace and how a larger issue in the future might be handled. I’d be tempted to jump ship as well.

        1. I'm working with someone who despises me*

          Exactly. I see this situation as Alison’s classic “your manager sucks and isn’t going to change.” Wakeen is a nice guy and I like him, but he runs the company and if this is how he manages conflict, then I don’t belong here. I need to be somewhere that requires people to behave with a basic level of respect and civility, even if they don’t like someone. Apparently that’s not a given!

          I would never, ever treat a co-worker I disliked the way Cersei treats me. Never. It wouldn’t even occur to me. I feel really blindsided by this. I fully understand that it’s her issue, I’m not interested in changing her – but I’m also not interested in teaching her (or Wakeen) that it’s okay to treat me this way.

          1. Jadelyn*

            I’d be vaguely tempted to try to make it so she can’t ignore me. Literally stand over her desk or hover right behind her, saying her name. “Cersei, I need XYZ. *pause* Cersei, did you hear me? I need XYZ? *pause* Cersei, when can you get XYZ to me? *pause* Cersei? *pause* Cersei? *pause* Cersei? *pause* Cersei!” and just keep on like that. Really test her commitment to this whole “I’m a sulking 12-year-old who can’t resolve my problems like an adult” performance.

                1. I'm working with someone who despises me*

                  Personally, I was picturing the “Lois? Lois? Lois? LOIS?! MOM! MOMMY! MAMA” moment from Family Guy :-)

                2. Parenthetically*

                  Hahaha, I do the “Lois? Lois? Mom? Mom?” thing with my students when they say “Mrs. Parenthetically! Mrs. Parenthetically!” over and over.

          2. Jean*

            I have been treated by a co-worker this way. Fortunately she did not need to interact with me but she never said a single word to me and looked right past me in the halls after I asked if we could keep down the non-business chatter on the group chat. I didn’t even call her out by name – I just made a general comment!

            1. I had this happen*

              I had 2 receptionists do it to me (they worked on alternate days – the place was open 7 days a week). It was an awkward situation because I was not technically their supervisor but the supervisor was off site. And they were both watching bootleg movies on the company computer over the Internet all day. And sharing the website with other locations. I told them that watching bootleg movies at work was not acceptable & they needed to stop. They continued so I told them I would report it to supervisor if they were watching bootleg movies again. They continued watching the movies (without headphones or even attempting to minimize the screen to try & hide it from me – even when they had customers in the waiting room). So, I reported it to supervisor.

              As a result of me reporting them for watching bootleg movies (after warning them to stop), they both stopped talking to me unless it was absolutely necessary for their job in December & one started talking to me again in March or April, after the company transferred her to another (local) location – based on the company’s choice, not hers. The other ended up getting replaced at the end of July when the company we were working for had their contract end & the rest of us continued doing the same jobs for the company who had hired the contractor originally since they brought us in-house but made everyone go through interviews. I was so happy to find out she was not offered a position. (And they made me the official supervisor of receptionists at my location so it was much easier going forward.)

      3. Not So NewReader*

        Since the manager is the owner and the only other person working there AND the situation is making her ill, it’s time to move on.

      4. TootsNYC*

        “Just because one co-worker has decided”

        This is a small company–small enough that they can use a house for their office.

        And they’re in the same room, I’m thinking. This is a huge part of our OP’s day.

    3. costume teapot*

      For #2, I really really encourage you to look at this as, “Sounds like a personal problem.” It’s all Cersei, and none of you. Sometimes, I have managed to find pretty extreme joy in treating someone who is cold shouldering you with just the nicest, sweetest, honey suckle treatment ever…so everyone else around you sees that you’re being nothing but reasonable, and she has a problem.

      I mean, this takes a certain amount of schaudenfrede to enjoy and pull off…but do at least keep in mind that she may not be taking it up with you because she realizes it’s all HER and none of YOUR fault.

    4. Detective Amy Santiago*

      How much do your roles intersect? If you’re the Teapot Production Manager and she is the Teapot Sales Manager, I imagine it would be difficult for you to completely avoid each other for business purposes. But if you’re the Teapot Production Manager and she is the Coffee Bean Manager and you can conceivably do your work without needing to communicate with her, then it’s probably best to take Wakeen’s advice and ignore her and take any necessary business matters through him.

      1. I'm working with someone who despises me*

        She’s in charge of finance/ accounting and I’m in charge of project management. So while there isn’t a ton of intersection, there’s enough to make this extremely difficult. If I need a simple project report that she could pull in 30 seconds, it takes three hours because I have to go through Wakeen.

        1. MuseumChick*

          Just remember this isn’t your problem. You are doing everything you can to keep things running smoothly, it’s Cersei who is causing the three-hour hold ups. If you boss ever asks why a project is taking so long, or something isn’t done just be honest, “I asked Cersei for that report but haven’t heard anything back yet.”

          1. LQ*

            This is really important. Remember that those three hours are Wakeen deciding that that’s how he wants to spend your time. (I desperately hope you’re hourly but I guess I’d be a little surprised at this point.) Do what you can to …kind of make it difficult for Wakeen. Every time something comes up ask. Don’t find work arounds and short cuts. Push these things to him. He asked you to, so do. Yes, it would take her 30 seconds, but push that to Wakeen. Push those things to him over and over and over. (And pleasantly.)

            1. tigerStripes*

              Yeah. Take him at his word – deal with him instead of her. He may get to the point where he tells her she has to behave like an adult if this gets too annoying.

        2. Detective Amy Santiago*

          Is it just talking to you face to face that she refuses? Could you email her those requests or use an instant message service?

          1. I'm working with someone who despises me*

            I’ve gotten better results with email so yes, I try to stick with that.

            My most recent MO has been to email both Wakeen and Cersei when I need something, as if I were asking both of them. It seems to work okay. And that’s manageable for now.

        3. Not So NewReader*

          Tell him you want her work on a shared spaces so that it does not take you three hours to find out a very simple answer.
          Also tell him that the men’s room has to be kept cleaner now that you are using it. Let him know that you have never been told to use the men’s room before.

          Find ways to take back your power.

    5. NaoNao*

      Wow, that’s hard.
      For 1)
      Focus on the “mismatch” lightly–say something like “we had some things shift around culturally and it became a mismatch for me. And I’m excited to move on to…[something to do with new company]”. They may not ask, if you have a solid history of long term jobs. Everyone has one or two jobs on their resume that are short lived.
      2) Remind yourself that work is not social. If she wants to be super cold, fine. From now on it’s a crime scene and “just the facts.” Of course it hurts when you’re a decent person and someone doesn’t like you for no good reason. But you can’t change that. You can only change yourself.
      Starting today, drill into work and focus on work when you’re there. On lunch, if you can, leave the building, and get some fresh air and sunshine. Focus on development at work if it’s slow (classes, articles, organizing stuff)
      I’ve had coworkers I *detested* and it was just because we didn’t mesh. I just kept it professional but brisk.

      Also, as a possible reality check, unless she’s openly doing stuff (calling you names, not answering emails, walking away from you while you’re asking her work stuff, playing cruel pranks on you, sabotaging your work, and so on) is her dislike of you really affecting your work? If it is, document and bring to Wakeen. “I emailed Cerisi with a critical work question last week and she hasn’t answered. When I approached her in the hall, she walked away from me. How would you like me to handle this?” If not…I’d say just ignore it as much as you can.

      1. I'm working with someone who despises me*

        I have no need or desire to socialize with my colleagues. It’s not about that at all. It’s just that it’s eating at me constantly trying to work next to someone who so intently hates me and I don’t even know why.

        Like I said, in a bigger company where our roles didn’t overlap, this wouldn’t be an issue. In our teeny company where there are only five of us, everyone’s energy levels matter a lot. I’ve never encountered anything like this before, and she wasn’t like this when I started. Colleagues I didn’t particularly like, sure, but never ones who acted like a petulant five year old giving the silent treatment.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I know first hand how another person’s contempt for me can wear me right down. I understand, in my own way, what you are saying here.

          Try to picture yourself as wearing a mirror. Her hate comes beaming at you and the mirror reflects it right back to her, leaving little to no impact on you.

          OTH, you could find ways to inject more positive things in your life/day. This could be by finding funny stories to read, or watching your down time for opportunities to make positive things happen in your week. It’s a good life habit anyway, because crap just automatically happens to us and the good stuff seems to take planning and forethought.

          I hope you find something quickly.

          1. TootsNYC*

            I like the idea of some positive self-care, mentally and emotionally.

            I also wonder if you could find a cognitive behavioral therapist (CBT) and see if there are some mental exercises they could teach you that would help you buffer yourself, emotionally and mentally. I found that to be really helpful!

    6. Lady By The Lake*

      It sounds like Wakeen is fully aware that the problem is Cersei. I don’t know why you would have to leave over this. I was in a similar situation a number of years ago and the problem was that my Wakeen and Cersei were friends. Now THAT was an untenable situation!

      1. I'm working with someone who despises me*

        Very similar here. Wakeen refuses to use his authority to make Cersei behave like a decent person to me. She’s been with him for 5 years and I’m the newcomer. It’s pretty obvious that his priority is keeping her happy, not having a functional business.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          In that case, I don’t think leaving is such a bad idea. If Wakeen refuses to manage this situation now, he’s not going to change in the future.

          The only thing I know to recommend until you can leave is do what you can and let the rest go. It doesn’t really matter why Cersei is choosing to act in this ridiculous fashion; you know it’s not you. She’s behaving like an ass.

    7. I'm working with someone who despises me*

      Additional context: this is a SMALL office, just us and Wakeen and two other managers. If it were a 200 person company, that would be different. But it’s such a small environment (her office and mine share a wall) that any conflict is VERY noticeable and has a huge impact on everyone.

      I also think there’s a gender component to this. We work in a very male dominated field; Cersei and I are the only women in management roles and prior to me she was the only one.

      I’m not completely sure but nothing else seems to make sense. I was actually hired in a support type role but promoted to her level after three months. I think she resents me for encroaching on her “territory” even though, as I said, we have really different roles. Not different enough to easily avoid interaction, though.

      1. brightstar*

        I would use this as a reason for seeking work so quickly. That there is little room for promotion and the small business isn’t a fit for you.

    8. Sabrina the Teenage Witch*

      I’m currently dealing with this situation except that the Cersei here is my superior, but I don’t report to her. My boss has been aware of the situation from the beginning and her suggestion was that I be overly nice/sweet to Cersei to make her attitude extremely obvious to those around the office. I avoid conflict/confrontation like the plague, so it has been a stressful 9 months.

      1. I'm working with someone who despises me*

        I’m sorry you’re dealing with that! I really, really don’t understand why a manager would ask someone to tolerate that kind of behavior rather than telling the person with the problem to, you know, act like a freaking adult!

        2. Sabrina the Teenage Witch*

          My manager is great, but our HR department is not. My coworker is also disparaging us all over the place and while it’s hard to do sometimes, I refuse to stoop to her level.

        3. another anon for this*

          In my experience, small business owners are often afraid of their accounting/finance heads. For a variety of reasons. The business owner may have no knowledge of the details of this function, or the small business owner is doing something shady that this person knows about, or whatever. But I have seen small business owners give huge amounts of deference to finance/accounting heads. I am dealing with that now and am considering looking for another job because I am so stressed over what’s happening. I really feel for you and wondered if I had written this post.

    9. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      My advice would be to follow Wakeen’s direction and run. Everything. Through. Him.

      Absolutely. Everything.

      My expectation is that dealing with this for a few weeks will make him step up and manage.

      2. Persephone Mulberry*

        Yep, this. And emphasize how much of a drag on your productivity this is.

        9am: Wakeen, I need yesterday’s TPS numbers from Jane.
        9:30am: Wakeen, have you had a chance to get the TPS numbers from Jane? I really need it them by 10 in order to finish this report.
        9:59am: Wakeen, my numbers? Yes, I know you’re busy. I’m trying to be busy, too. If Jane would talk to me directly instead of pretending I don’t exist, I wouldn’t have to bother you.

    10. I'm working with someone who despises me*

      Honestly, I’ve made up my mind to leave. There would have to be a complete and total turnaround from Wakeen to keep me here at this point. This place has become poisoned for me which truly sucks because I love the work and I was really excited about this opportunity.

      So given that I’m leaving, how do I present this in interviews when I’m asked why I’m leaving after only eight months without delving into all this drama?

      1. Jadelyn*

        You could go with “the job turned out not to be what it was presented as”, which is true – it was presented as a good opportunity at a sane company and has suddenly turned into middle-school drama with a manager that refuses to do anything about it.

        1. On Fire*

          I think this is your best bet. I left a job after 3 days, IIRC, because they lied about the contract. It became a “not what it was presented as” on the rare occasions it came up.

          If anyone presses for details, you might be able to say that you discovered the job did not have potential for growth, but I would be careful in phrasing that so that it doesn’t sound like “They wouldn’t give me the corner office on my first day.”

      2. zora*

        Focus on what is different about the place you are applying, in a positive way, rather than dwelling too much on what’s wrong with your current job. It could be different for each place you apply, so don’t worry about it too much now. But definitely think about it, write it out and practice it before each interview.

        So, something like, “My current company is very small, and I am looking for somewhere with more challenging opportunities and room for growth. That’s why I am excited about XYZ about NewCompany.”

        1. Natalie*

          While this is really good advice generally, I think the OP is concerned about the fact that she has only been at her current place for 8 months. She likely does need to specifically address why she’s looking to move on after such a short time.

          1. I'm working with someone who despises me*

            Yeah, I need this on my resume. Otherwise I’ll have a huge gap, plus I’ve accomplished work here in actually proud of and I deserve to have it on my resume. I was hoping to stay for at least three years. But I’ll be lucky if I last this full first one.

      3. JustaTech*

        If an interviewer asks why you’re leaving how about some thing like “After I started there was a major shift in the company culture. I’m very excited about [position] because I’ve read so much about the consistency of culture here at [company].”
        Completely factual (something did change, Cersi) and lets you segue back to how awesome the new place is. I guess if they press you could say that you tried your best to adapt to the new culture but it was so different from when you started you weren’t able to make it fit (although this might sound like you’re inflexible, so maybe not).

    11. Spelliste*

      You don’t also happen to share a birthday with Cersei, do you? If so, you might be my very dear friend, who’s in this very situation. If not, someone else wonderful shares your pain detail for detail, and regardless, I’m sending maximum good wishes your way.

      What a frustrating, exhausting thing to have to deal with. :(

      1. I'm working with someone who despises me*

        Thanks. Frustrating and exhausting are the right words for sure. Not to mention demoralizing and a major kick in the teeth knowing I have to leave an otherwise great job.

        Nope, we don’t share a birthday. I hope your friend’s situation improves soon.

    12. DoYouSmellThat*

      I might be the voice of dissent here, but I don’t think Cersei owes you an explanation for not liking you. Since you don’t have any direct overlap in duties, and it doesn’t sound like you NEED to speak to get your jobs done, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with Wakeen leaving it at that. Cersei may be following the old adage of “if you don’t have something nice to say.” I don’t enjoy being disliked either, but I would be REALLY uncomfortable if a coworker I didn’t like was repeatedly asking me why, going to our boss about it, etc.

      I think you’ve done your due diligence in trying to resolve any simple misunderstandings that could’ve been the root cause, OP. I don’t think there’s much else you can do. I wouldn’t look for a new job over it, myself, so long as she isn’t doing anything outwardly hostile toward you.

      1. Natalie*

        Do you really think the Silent Treatment is acceptable, especially in a small office? I don’t think anyone is suggesting they need to be besties, but that’s a far cry different from completely ignoring everything a colleague says because you don’t like them. It’s unnecessary and childish.

        1. DoYouSmellThat*

          I do think there are scenarios where extremely limited contact with a coworker might be the best response, yes.

          1. Natalie*

            That’s not what I asked. I asked about not speaking to a colleague at all, which the OP clearly stated was the case.

            1. DoYouSmellThat*

              Well, OP stated that Cersei went from speaking with her only when she absolutely had to, to not at all. So clearly something has escalated here, but we don’t know what. While it’s certainly possible that Cersei’s just an absolute whackjob and there’s no reasonable 2nd side to the story, I can’t help but wonder what she’d tell us if she could. (That’s not to accuse OP of anything, but in my working life I’ve encountered situations where things have blown up and both parties are slightly baffled or think they haven’t done anything to contribute.)

              Personally, I wonder if OP repeatedly asking Cersei what her issue is (no matter how politely or how well-intended) may be the kind of thing that escalated things for Cersei? Who knows.

              But to answer your question: Yes, I think there are situations where it’s acceptable to not speak to a coworker at all when there’s a difficult relationship, provided it’s not interfering with actual work.

              With that said, OP has given lots of additional context in comments beyond the original post I responded to.

              Have a nice weekend! :)

              1. I'm working with someone who despises me*

                I didn’t ask her repeatedly. My most recent attempt went like this:

                *goes into Cersei’s office with a work related doc*

                Me: Here’s the teapot report. Hey, do you have a few minutes to talk?

                Cersei: *not looking at me* Nope. Today is not a good day. Way too busy.

                Me: No worries, I don’t want to interrupt. But if you have a few minutes in the next couple of days, I’d like to chat.

                Cersei: K.

                And that was the last time we spoke directly.

                Before things went south, we had some productive conversations where I assured her that I was very open to feedback and if she wanted me to do something differently, to please let me know. Those conversations were quite amicable. I considered them to be good building blocks for getting problems out in the open.

                I honestly have no idea what happened, and trust me I’ve done some major soul searching to try and figure out if I’m contributing to this in some way. I wish I could think of something specific I did. I honestly can’t think of anything. Certainly nothing that would justify this level of vitriol.

                1. Your Weird Uncle*

                  I had a manager that reminds me of your Cersei. She turned on me before long…..her thing was to take a subordinate (we worked on small teams, maybe 10 people total, in the tourist industry so we were teenagers and she was about 8 years older than we were) and isolate him or her. She would spend so much time and energy making snide comments about us (sometimes within earshot), undermining us with our teammates, messing with our schedules, and just generally making life miserable for one person at a time until that person inevitably quit and she just…moved on to the next. No rhyme or reason to it, it just became her fun project. (The business owner was just as useless as your Wakeen, and I can’t imagine it didn’t cost him a *lot* of good employees.)

                  I saw her ten years later in a bar in the same tourist town. She convinced her husband to ‘accidentally’ stumble into me and spill my beer over. It was *definitely* intentional. And for, what I could see, no reason at all.

                  Some people are just d****. :)

                2. Not So NewReader*

                  @YWU, that woman had a problem which went way out beyond her relationship with you. That’s all I will say to that.
                  I am glad you were able to move on to a better employer.

                3. DoYouSmellThat*

                  I’m not sure how else to explain to you that the details from your original question and the details in your subsequent comments are VASTLY different. Every response from you has more and more gory detail that paints you as an innocent victim and Cersei as some monster. It just doesn’t come off as plausible to me. The way that you’re replying to my replies to other people suggests to me that you need an unreasonable amount of validation.

                  Honestly, if this comment thread were going on in my real life, I’d be about ready to put you on full ignore right about now too!

                4. I'm working with someone who despises me*

                  I’m not really sure how to respond to that, but okay. Everything I’ve written is the truth. No one can include every last detail in an OP. In my experience, it’s pretty common for an OP to give a basic situation and then for details to come out in the comments. I’ve tried to be honest here about how the whole thing has unfolded because I’m trying to figure out a way forward. Lots of comments have been really helpful with that, as I’ve said. It really helped to get feedback on my situation. Which is why I posted.

                5. ancolie*

                  @DoYouSmellThat

                  You’re being pretty jerkish, here. Alison says to take LWs at their word, and Open Thread discussion starters are the OT LW-equivalent.

                  Also, absolutely none of what she’s described sounds unbelievable to me.

      2. I'm working with someone who despises me*

        You think it’s acceptable to behave with open, icy hostility toward a coworker who never did anything to you just because of a personality conflict or whatever this is?

        Gotta say I disagree. I’m not the boss who interrupted someone’s wedding or the coworker who spread norovirus and is still expecting civility from my colleagues. I didn’t do a thing to deserve this (which Wakeen has confirmed).

        I don’t want to be her bestie. I don’t even want to talk to her more than necessary. But, sometimes it IS necessary and even if it wasn’t, it’s simply common courtesy to return a greeting when you get one.

        If I asked her a question in a meeting, she’d turn to someone else and answer them as if they had asked the question. That’s not normal behavior, at least not to me.

        1. DoYouSmellThat*

          Your original post/question doesn’t really speak to “open, icy hostility” though. And I definitely included “as long as she is not doing anything outwardly hostile to you” in my response. I gathered from your original post that Cersei went from speaking to you only when she had to, to not at all and isn’t interested in explaining why when you ask her. That alone is not hostile, in my opinion. It sounds like you’ve provided a lot of additional context since then though, so if you feel you need to leave an otherwise good job over it, best of luck! You do what you gotta do!

          1. Jadelyn*

            Wait, seriously? You don’t think a someone completely refusing to speak to or acknowledge their coworker is hostile? Nobody’s expecting Cersei to be besties with OP, but completely ignoring and giving someone the cold shoulder is absolutely, completely hostile in a professional environment.

      3. Pineapple Incident*

        ….I just don’t buy this angle. I don’t care how much someone’s existence bothers you, it’s simply not professional to refuse to deal with them in any capacity at work. You can hardcore eyeroll privately, or tell your friends at work how BEC you are about this coworker, or post here about it if you end up being in Cersei’s shoes. The OP shouldn’t be having to take hours longer just to do simple tasks and funnel everything through Wakeen, and use a separate bathroom?!?!? during the day.

        This company is bananas, as is the way this is being dealt with. There’s not a good rationalization anywhere for it.

        1. Lissa*

          Yeah…refusing to speak to somebody even about work related issues is not acceptable. *Only* speaking to somebody about work-related issues and not responding to them otherwise is really borderline, IMO, but once it goes into making somebody *change how they do their job*, just no. I don’t even care why Cersei doesn’t like OP — as adults we sometimes need to interact with people we don’t like.

      4. Whats In A Name*

        I have to disagree with you here. Ignoring a direct question, or turning your back on one, in a meeting is not professional and is indeed unprofessional. I did get a read from OP that she needs to be Ms. Popularity, but I did read she has a job that overlies often enough with co-worker than a minimum of contact is required.

        I also wouldn’t consider having to go to my boss and wait 3 hours for a report to do my job or being forced to use the men’s bathroom (as female) “otherwise great” characteristics in a job. I also think the owners lack of being able to manage also doesn’t make this an otherwise great job.

        2. I'm working with someone who despises me*

          Very interesting! I’m curious as to where that reading came from, because I am totally okay with not being liked by everyone at work. I do try to be nice and I tend to take a genuine interest in people around me, but not everyone I work with is going to love me and I’m more than okay with that, as long as they’re still willing to work with me.

          I get the feeling one of the other managers here isn’t a huge fan of me on a personal level and I’m 100% fine with that because he’s professional and polite and communicates with me on work related matters with no issues.

          In fact, I kind of prefer it that way. I’ve learned my lesson about getting overly chummy with colleagues so I actively try to guard against that kind of thing now. Kind, polite, professional at all times – show appropriate level of interest in personal lives – yes. Be best buddies, no. I’m simply not looking for those kinds of bonds at work.

          I don’t think being upset about someone treating me this way equates to needing to be liked by everyone.

          1. Whats In A Name*

            I meant to say I did NOT get a read from OP that she needs to be Ms. Popularity. Sorry! That was an important qualifier.

            1. I'm working with someone who despises me*

              Hahaha! Okay, good. I was intensely curious as to what I said that made you think that!

      5. Rex*

        No, you are way off here. It’s completely reasonable to expect colleagues to be on speaking terms with one another. This would be true even if their work didn’t overlap, but it sounds like there are plenty of times when the OP does need information from her. And OP has made it clear how unpleasant this has become.

      6. another anon for this*

        I think Cersei needs to work with and talk to the letter writer. The silent treatment when it comes to work-related conversation is not acceptable. Otherwise, Cersei does not need to be friends and does not need to explain that. And I don’t think the LW wants that. But to have to run simple requests through the owner when the LW could much more efficiently go directly to Cersie is ridiculous.

    13. LoFlo*

      I have beena Cersei. If she is doing the finance work, right after Christmas is probably her busiest time getting year end closed and reported. Also you mentioned that it should only take 5 minutes for her to produce a report. I sort of see this as a mismatch of expectations. You may think it takes 5 minutes, but do you know all the steps that Cersei has to go through, and what other thing she has to stop and refocus on to get you this report? She may not have the time flexibility that you have, and she doesn’t know how to communicate that to you. After dealing with co-workers who expect my immediate attention no matter what, and not respecting my time, yeah I tend to keep my head down and get chummy.

      1. Jean*

        “She may not have the time flexibility that you have, and she doesn’t know how to communicate that to you”

        Well, I can think of an easy way for Cersei to communicate that to her: Cersei can use her words.

        1. Natalie*

          Wait, are you suggesting that beaming mind-rays at her co-worker isn’t helping? Whoda thunk that!?

      2. I'm working with someone who despises me*

        I do not demand her immediate attention ever. Prior to her going completely silent on me, I never asked her anything if it wasn’t acutely critical, I used email if I possibly could, and I emphasized that I understood how busy she was and if something wasn’t important, I didn’t ask.

        Anyway, I haven’t directly asked her for anything in weeks now. So no, that’s not the issue. And if it was, the onus was on her to TELL ME THAT so I could actually change something, or at least brainstorm solutions with her.

      3. another anon for this*

        I think you missed the point. The letter writer’s concern is that she has to go through the owner and cannot speak directly with Cersei when something is needed. Maybe the report does take a lot longer than 5 minutes. But the LW should be able to request it directly from Cersei, who can have a conversation with the LW regarding timing and needs. Routing through the boss adds a potential bottleneck and introduces the possibility of communication errors.

    14. I'm working with someone who despises me*

      By the way, I’ve been working really hard on me and my behavior all through this little drama, because I recognize that’s the only piece I can control. I’ve begun training to be a volunteer for a wonderful local organization that does work I’m very passionate about so I have a non-work outlet where I feel productive and useful, I’ve been pleasant and polite to Cersei no matter what (until I was told to stop talking to her outright). I’ve tried to follow Alison’s advice by asking Cersei directly what’s up, and then asking Wakeen for “advice” when that didn’t work.

      I’m trying my best to be the bigger person here, not let it affect my work, sit here and stir my own pot and all that. I’m trying really hard not to let this impact me more than necessary.

      But it’s very difficult. Frankly I think Wakeen’s requests of me are ridiculous and disrespectful. I feel like I need to look out for myself here, which ultimately means leaving if he won’t help me fix this. As I said, it’s a tiny company and Cersei’s office shares a wall with mine. When we’re both here, it feels like I’m working next to a Dementor. Her hatred for me is so palpable, it’s kind of hard to overstate how difficult it is not to let it get to me. I swear I’m trying.

      1. Natalie*

        I completely get it – I had a co-worker like this once and it literally drove me to drink. (Not a recommended strategy.) I had to regularly remind myself out loud that I was not the crazy person for expecting a colleague to answer a direct question.

        Upthread you mentioned that you can’t afford to quit without another job lined up. I’m not sure if you meant “afford” to mean finances, but if so do everything you can to sock away as much money as you possibly can.

        1. I'm working with someone who despises me*

          Working on that for sure! I do have emergency funds but I also bought a house recently so I need to be really careful. Frankly, I’ve been scared that Wakeen is going to let ME go over this because it’s easier than dealing with this. He’s assured me that won’t happen, but I’m still scared it will.

      2. Anne (with an "e")*

        I think Cersei has created an abusive, hostile working environment. The silent treatment is not acceptable. It is passive aggressive bullying at its worst. It can cause physical pain and PTSD for the victim.

        This woman is actually abusing and torturing the OP. I think it is despicable that Wakeen refuses to make Cersei stop immediately.

        Advice for the OP:
        1. I would definitely get the heck out of Dodge ASAP, as you have planned.
        2. I would seek out a good therapist to help get you through this extremely stressful situation.
        3. While at work, I would try to use earbuds if possible. Listen to shows, music, books, etc. to help transport you mentally from the abusive environment in which you have found yourself. Especially do this while you wait around for reports or numbers or whatever you have requested from Cersei via Wakeen.
        4. When asked in future interviews why you have decided to leave this torture chamber, I would simply say that it has not been a good cultural fit. That you are looking for different, new, interesting opportunities. I would not stress over this. Leave it at that and talk up what is so appealing about potential new job. The job turned out to be vastly different fron what you signed up for.
        5. Constantly remind yourself that this situation is absolutely NOT your fault. If you have done some minor thing to trigger Cersei, her reaction has been cruel and uncalled for.
        6. Please update us when you find an awesome new job with sane people.

        1. I'm working with someone who despises me*

          Thank you for the support and good wishes. I actually have a therapist (not because of this) and she’s been instrumental in helping me adjust my outlook. That and great comments like these!

          I can honestly say I feel so much better this week and I’m looking forward to focusing on my work without letting her get to me :-)

    15. Marisol*

      This doesn’t sound like as much of a problem to me as you are presenting it to be. What this sounds like to me is, the coworker is being unfriendly, and that creates an environment that is emotionally unpleasant. However, you mention that Cersei does talk to you when absolutely necessary. So presumably, her freeze out does not prevent you from actually getting work done. So if you know what you need to do at your job, and you are empowered to do those tasks, then you’re actually in an ok situation. It’s not great, but it’s workable. As they say on reality tv shows, you’re here to make money, not friends.

      Wakeen gave you his take on it–she is intimidated by you. I’d take his word for it, and realize that if she’s intimidated by you, you’re probably doing a great job. That’s good news! Assuming Wakeen likes you and likes the job you do, and barring any nasty political interference from Cersei (her bad-mouthing you to Wakeen, for example) you can assume your job is secure. And job security is nothing to sneeze at these days. Keep strengthening your bond with Wakeen. (You might ask him what you are doing that makes Cersei intimidated, and whether or not Wakeen likes what you do in that regard.) Your relationship with your boss is what’s important; your relationship with your peers is much less so as a general rule, and in this particular case, is totally irrelevant as Cersei has chosen her.

      You asked Cersei what was up–that was a mature, kind thing to do. She wouldn’t respond in a mature way, so you can drop it, giving up entirely on trying to make a relationship work with her, knowing you did the right thing. In fact, you *need* to drop it–don’t ever ask her to discuss the situation again. If you do, you are feeding into her power trip.

      If she is in fact intimidated by you, then she most likely doesn’t feel like she’s a powerful performer at her job–she feels like the only power she has is the power to make you feel bad. So don’t empower her more! Don’t reward her efforts. Be pleasant and professional, and don’t go chasing after her approval or any sort of relationship beyond the bare bones minimum social interaction you need to execute your job duties. If you chase her, that teaches her that her method works.

      It’s possible that once Cersei sees her coldness is not a way to manipulate you, she will warm up. If you take away the reward, the behavior will stop. (Be prepared for an extinction burst–a temporary worsening of behavior–just before she returns to normal.)

      Give Cersei a way to save face–if she starts being pleasant to you, accept her pleasantries gracefully, and allow the relationship to course-correct. Don’t show resentment or try to punish her–that will perpetuate an unhealthy cycle. It may not happen, but if it does, accept the change without fuss. Act like there was never a problem.

      Regarding the bathroom, I suggested below that you refuse to use the men’s bathroom, but really, I have no problem with either pushing back, or acquiescing to, this request. You could do what Wakeen asks, knowing that you will likely be getting points in his eyes for cooperating–it is hard to manage people, and who knows what contribution Cersei brings to the company that makes her too valuable to let go, so I have some sympathy for a boss who avoids confronting the situation–if you go along to get along, you may ultimately be serving the needs of the company and that could be a significant contribution in itself. Remember that the clash of egos originated with Cersei–using the other bathroom may be a way for you to rise above it and not get your own ego invested in this nonsense. It’s just a bathroom after all. It’s not about your salary or your title or job duties.

      In the Art of War, Sun Tzu, the ancient war strategist, describes a general who gives away a prized horse to a neighboring king who asks for it. The kings advisors were shocked because the horse seemed to symbolize the power and richness of the kingdom, and giving it away seemed like an act of weakness. But Sun Tzu saw it differently, and proceeded to give that other king all kinds of goodies–a concubine, some other treasures I can’t remember, every time the other king asked for them, seeing these gifts as emotional payments that had no bearing on the strength of the kingdom. Then one day, the other king asked for some land. And just like that–BAM!–Sun Tzu had his armies wage war against that king, saying that land was the foundation of the state. Sun Tzu wasn’t willing to fight an ego war, but he sure would fight, decisively, for anything that really mattered. My point is, a bathroom isn’t necessarily the battle you want to fight.

      On the other hand, you can refuse to use the men’s bathroom, knowing that you will be sending the message to Cersei that you won’t be bullied. This too can be a useful stance, and I have no opinion which choice is better.

      If you like this job, I mean if you like your daily tasks, responsibilities, etc., then I would not give up on it just yet. Cersei may get better, or, if you are in a position to supplant her, you might do that, as you continue to deliver value to your company, until she quits. It’s not fun to have a coworker act coldly towards you, but work is work, not a social club. As long as you have other things in your life that bring you happiness–friends, family–I’d drop any expectation that you have a coworker who is also a friend and just grit my teeth and do the work and stick with it. These kinds of experiences can be wonderful learning experiences that strengthen your mettle. Learning to be ok with a coworker who is a real shithead is actually an incredibly valuable skill.

      1. Natalie*

        I think you have misread. The OP has said that Cersei does NOT speak to her at all, and that OP has to run all requests to Cersei through her boss: “one of my colleagues (Cersei) stopped speaking to me except when she absolutely had to, and eventually (a few weeks ago) stopped talking to me altogether.”

        That said, I think this is great advice overall to make it possible to stay at that workplace.

        1. Marisol*

          ha ha ha why do I let myself ramble when I am sleep deprived and fighting off a virus? I guess because my judgement goes out the window when I’m in such a state. I did miss the “stopped speaking to me altogether” part and focused on the “speaking only when necessary” part. Thanks for pointing that out.

          Still, it doesn’t change my reco. If I were in the OP’s shoes and able to get my work done without Cersei, I’d stick it out. The OP doesn’t say she can’t do her work (unless I misread again!), only that she feels tense in her environment.

          It seems to me that *something* has to give–eventually either the manager will step up, or Cersei will back down, and I’d hate for the OP to give up before that point, when she is absolutely blameless in this situation.

          1. I'm working with someone who despises me*

            Very good point. I have to say, it was really nice to get this out of my own head and get feedback from people outside the situation. So thank you all for that. I feel better.

            Maybe it’s the weather (first warmish day in ages) but I’m feeling more hopeful and even finding this situation slightly funny today. I hope I can find something new soon (or hey, maybe it’ll get fixed – you never know) and someday this will be a funny cocktail party story.

    16. NoMoreMrFixit*

      My advice is based on being in that situation and the hatred extending to deliberately sabotaging or taking credit for my work, giving me false information and various other openly hostile acts. Very ugly. I changed careers because of all the garbage. The coworker form purgatory is still there getting away with their games and the boss enables them.

      Keep your work secure. Backed up in a couple of places if possible. Avoid this person. Do not attempt to interact – pretend they don’t exist. Keep open communications with everyone else you have to work with so you have the right info and they do too. Network like mad and get out of there asap. Make lots of “me” time and indulge in the activities that make you happy. As well as the people who do the same for you. Don’t waste time trying to fix this mess. The boss isn’t interested and your coworker sees you as the whole problem.

      Prayers and well wishes for you to escape that madhouse soonest and get on with your life. It’s horrible to be in that situation. Godspeed.

      1. I'm working with someone who despises me*

        Thank you for this. I will do it all. I didn’t even think of backing up my stuff. Excellent idea.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Because I have “that” side of my personality, I would be sure she saw me talking with others, laughing and going about my day in a successful manner.

        One thing I have done and it worked well once I got into the swing of it, is to just go around the person as if they are not there. Carry an attitude that your day is going along just fine without her.

        My family uses the silent treatment on each other. I’ll tell you a secret about the silent treatment, people learn to live with out the person who is doing the silent treatment. My life went on even though X decided to stop speaking to me. And X was left out of the loop because her top priority was not to talk to me. So she missed stuff. And as the years went on the effect was cultivate. She missed entire chunks of my life story.

        Maybe you can find ways to be highly productive and the side effect is that she has to break her silence to ask YOU questions because you have morphed into a human power house. It’s very difficult to avoid movers and shakers. What I like about this plan is that it gives you something to think about instead of Ms. Beams of Hatred, it helps to build your resume and it makes you look good to everyone around you.

        FWIW, I firmly believe that routinely not speaking to others when spoken to IS a fire-able offense. I believe that almost all jobs demand an employee communicate necessary information to others. If an employee cannot do that, then they cannot do a very core part of the job and therefore cannot do the job. Just FWIW.

        Hang tough. You sound like a nice person and a good employee. Hold on to this thought and realize that eventually your cohort’s own stupid moves will unravel her.

        1. I'm working with someone who despises me*

          Thank you for writing this. I really, really liked it.

          Marisol – if you’re still reading, I also reread your comment and there’s great stuff in there. I’m going to keep it all in mind over the coming weeks.

          Thank you again, everyone. This really did help my mindset and give me some ideas. I’ll keep you posted!

          2. Marisol*

            So glad I was helpful! As I mentioned, I’m kinda sick, sleep deprived, and I’ve had a splitting headache all day, but still felt compelled to share my thoughts–nice to know I did some good.

            1. I'm working with someone who despises me*

              Lots of sickness in my household lately! Gotta be the season. I hope you feel better soon.

              When I get to work Monday, I’m going to copy some of the best quotes from this thread into a doc I can look at when Cersei is driving me crazy.

              1. Not So NewReader*

                You’re getting this really well. Yep, that is exactly what to do. And you will find some of your own affirmations that you can tell yourself, too.

                I have been in the work force for 30 plus years. FWIW, you will probably never encounter this particular type of situation again. (We can find comfort in knowing that Current Bad Thing is temporary.) While no work place is hassle free, you will find that you did learn things from this predicament here and Other Tough Things will not seem so tough to you. You will have an “inner knowing” that you can work through it. (Let stuff teach you, let stuff make you stronger because you are now wiser.)

                Let us know how it goes for you. You have a great attitude in spite of what you are dealing with.

    17. Huddled over tea*

      I don’t think that one instance of a 8 month stint would put people off too badly. It’s more if you have a string of short jobs that it starts to look strange, but if your previous jobs are 2, 3, more years, you should be fine.

      Also, you mention in other comments that you’re a project manager, which is one industry where it’s actually quite common to have short stints and to move on when your project has been… well, managed.

      1. I'm working with someone who despises me*

        True. But unfortunately my last two positions were fairly short term (1.5 years and 6 months). Both were contract positions, and as you correctly state, they’re explainable in my line of work. But it still makes me worry. I wanted to be at this one for a long time.

        1. Wheezy Weasel*

          You’re not being given the tools to complete your projects. Your coworker’s time and assistance is as much of a tool (jokes aside) as your tracking software, budget authority, etc. You can’t successfully manage a project when you’ve got one hand tied behind your back. If you look at your own employment through a project ‘lens’ you’ve identified a major risk for success and the comments are helping you develop your Avoid, Transfer, Mitigate or Accept strategies.

    18. Been There, Done That*

      I can’t tell you how much I sympathize because I’ve gone thru that situation too. I had to accept that that’s the way it was, and you’re 100% right, it affects your morale, your productivity and potentially your health. Follow Wakeen’s direction. It sounds as if he may be aware of a larger problem (maybe there’s a track record of this with other coworkers, for example). Document as necessary.

      I’m afraid I don’t have much sparkling wisdom to offer, but as for the 8 months, you might say you wanted to give it time and a real chance to work out before you decided the best option was to move on.

      I like your word “commentariat.”

    19. Mephyle*

      At this moment, there are already 127 replies, so, having not read all the responses, I apologize if this point has already been addressed:
      I’m trying to figure out how to explain that it’s a cultural mismatch, which ultimately it is, but I feel like eight months is a long time to stay somewhere only to figure that out now.
      The truth is that there was an abrupt change in the culture very recently, at which point it became a mismatch. You made efforts to adjust to the new culture but in the end it was untenable.

    20. Tabby Baltimore*

      Welp, there’s already 129 replies, so I don’t expect the OP to ever see this, but I wanted to agree with the poster upthread who pointed out that the fact that the OP, who got a promotion to manager, but in a small company with no further professional growth potential, was the best way to frame the reason for her job search. Looking for “larger pastures” with more corporate structure, or that allow for more opportunities for specialization, or that provide more opportunities to work on a greater variety of projects, is a perfectly understandable motivation for getting a new job. Using this as your reason would relieve you from having to mention the “culture fit” issue altogether, and keep any potential interviews focused on your work accomplishments. I hope you find something soon!

      1. I'm working with someone who despises me*

        I’m still reading, I assure you! I hope to write out more responses later. Thank you for this.

    21. I'm working with someone who despises me*

      I really want to thank everyone who’s taken the time to respond. I didn’t want to email Alison with this question because I read AAM at work constantly and I didn’t want it spotted. I think it’s pretty safe buried in an open thread and the feedback has been SUPER helpful. It’s been great to get this out of my head, get answers to the interview question I dread, and hear recommendations for some coping skills in the meantime.

      I’m still reading each and every response. Please feel free to keep it coming if you have more thoughts. And I promise to update!

    22. WerkingIt*

      I have recently been in the same situation. Started off with someone being immature, then a jerk, then just downhill from there. The whole office was toxic. The environment that I was in was so bad that it was causing debilitating anxiety — migraines, insomnia, vertigo, stomach upset… I was a bundle of nerves; at times even looking down to find my hands were shaking. Combine that with the fact that the hiring manager basically lied to me about the position in order to get me to accept the job… I thought they were hiring to manage one program, but basically I was an admin even after explicitly saying during the interviews and negotiations that I had no desire to do admin work since I just don’t have the temperament or personality for it.

      My plan was to work there until I found something else. It ended up being so bad that I just quit after about 6 months. Miraculously, all of my physical symptoms completely disappeared within hours. I was free!

      I am currently looking and have continued to address the issue in the same way I would advise you to address it: the truth. “It’s wasn’t a good fit culturally.” (I also say that I was hired to manage a program but the role turned out to be basically answering phones and filing. Which is typically met “oh a-ha of course considering you have so much experience on your resume…” Again, totally true.) Leaving a job that isn’t a good fit doesn’t make you a flake and any reasonable employer will understand that you as an individual want a good fit as much as they do.

  11. IsThisThingOn*

    Should I reach out to an old coworker who didn’t like me to let her know I applied for a job at her new company?

    OldCompany was merged into NewCompany sometime last year and my job changed. I am now looking for a new job more in line with what I used to do. I just applied for a position at a company that looks pretty interesting and my experience aligns very nicely with what they seek. However, I pass the building frequently on my way to work, and I saw Coworker go into that building the other day. I searched her name on LinkedIn and saw that, indeed, she is now working there (with a promotion! Nice job, Coworker.)

    I always liked Coworker well enough, but I do not think she liked me very much. She always seemed a touch frosty. That is fine by me, it bothers me not whether someone likes me at work, but I now wonder whether I should drop her a line on LinkedIn to let her know that I applied for a job within her company. If HR realizes we worked together, I am sure they would reach out to her. Should I let her know ahead of time as a courtesy? There is always the chance she would encourage HR to not consider my application, but I have no idea if she dislikes me THAT much.

    1. Sadsack*

      I don’t think I would contact her. I would if you had a good relationship, but you don’t. No matter what she tells you, you don’t know what she’ll really tell them. So, I don’t really see any benefit in contacting her.

    2. Kyrielle*

      I agree with Sadsack – don’t reach out. LOTS of places I have worked, she would not necessarily be brought in to the discussion. (You would think they should, but they may not make the connection.)

      If she’s cool to you but thinks you’re competent, she’s not an asset or a problem, and you’ll be fine if they approach her but there’s no reason for you to proactively involve her. If she actually doesn’t like you or would speak poorly of you, your best chance is if she doesn’t get involved – in which case you really don’t want to proactively involve her.

      It’s hopefully the former, but either way, you don’t lose anything by leaving her out of it.

      I do wonder if her position there is likely to interact with the position you’re applying for – that would be the one thing that might concern me, but it sounds like you wouldn’t have as much concern about dealing directly with someone being frosty as I would.

    3. Cruciatus*

      Nah. Don’t let her know. A coworker who didn’t like me (we were civil, but she was never interested in anything about me at all and would barely talk with me unless I started the conversation) moved to a new job and, lo and behold, I also went to the same place 6 months later! And, in fact, I was in the same role as her but in a different department (which I didn’t know until I started because our job descriptions are very vague). But this means we have to be in contact on occasion. Granted my coworker likely knew I was coming because our mutual friends at old job would have told her, but sometimes that is life. This is why you try not to burn bridges! You never know who will pop up again. We contact each other as needed, do our work, and that’s about it. Letting her know is just adding unnecessary drama. She doesn’t need to be prepared for you. If you do get the job, just be polite as always. She may not be up for small talk about old place/old coworkers (as my person isn’t) but eventually she will get used to you being there.

  12. Christy*

    How do you strengthen your persistence muscle? I’m a pretty good worker, but I know I could be better, and I want to be better. I want to advance and succeed in higher level and management positions. So what are some things I can do now to get better at consistently working hard. I’m always consistently working, and I sometimes work hard, but I want to consistently work hard.

    1. Hilorious*

      Identify people that you know professionally who have work habits you admire, and ask to pick their brain about work habits and how they handle their workload! I’ve done this several times in my career and picked up lots of tricks that have made me a better worker.

    2. ANewbie*

      It sounds silly, but take on more things so that you’re busier. I find I’m best about consistently doing great work when I have lots going on, and I tend to have a hard time motivating myself when all I have to do is a couple of boring tasks.

      1. JustaTech*

        Yup! I learned this from a roommate in college: if you want to be sure to get all your work done on time, have a lot of work to do so you never lose momentum (too much).
        I’ve invented several projects that are consistently a little bit of work so I’ve always got something to do that also has a “done!” piece. Like, Every week I’ll update my inventory (even if it hasn’t changed) to have something I’ve “finished”.

    3. Agnodike*

      Why do you want to consistently work hard? Is it because you want to get more accomplished in a day? Is it because you want to build up skill so your efficiency doesn’t suffer too much at times when your workload is very heavy? Is it because you like the idea of being “a hard worker?” The first step to accomplishing a goal is to be specific about what you’re trying to achieve.

      Once you know what you specifically want, you can start breaking it down into the steps you’ll need to achieve it. So, for example, if you want to get more accomplished, you can start tracking where you spend your time in a day and reallocating your energy accordingly. If you want to build up stamina, you can focus on trying to add small, manageable increments of work, or increase the intensity of your work by adding more tasks, in between your breaks.

      You mention wanting to advance and succeed in higher-level positions. What have you noticed about the people who are in those positions now? What habits do they have that you might adopt? You could also talk to your manager and ask whether they have any feedback on your current work style and productivity, to see if they have any suggestions for you.

    4. Jenny*

      I think practicing discipline helps in general, so maybe start with something small and when you’re confident in your change add something else. Could be about how well you focus on tasks, or about completing something daily, or something else. I also found meditation helped me.

    5. Marisol*

      I’m not convinced that working hard will lead to promotions–you know that saying, “work harder, not smarter.” But assuming that a higher volume of work *IS* the best strategy, I have been using Habiticus, an online game where you track your productivity and get points for completing tasks, and I find it helps me grind stuff out. I have adhd, and mainly struggle with busywork-type stuff, so that’s the perspective I’m coming from.

    6. MoinMoin*

      This may be odd to say, but exercise may help you. I’ve been hiking a lot more lately and I’m finally starting to really get comfortable with the discomfort of tackling a long or strenuous hike, and I feel like that perspective is translating into other parts of my life as well. I used to have a bad habit of stopping and planning to come back to a problem as soon as anything isn’t able to be immediately resolved, or just doing a project to the best of my abilities without stretching myself. Now I treat it a lot like a hike- come up with a general plan and keep putting one foot in front of the other and slowly negotiate through the little issues, instead of standing at the bottom, looking at the giant mountain and thinking, Nope, too huge, I’ll stick to my urban loop that I know I can complete. My sister is hiking the PCT this year and I’m just so jealous of the mental fortitude that she has to tackle that, as well as what she’ll cultivate in order to complete it.
      In the same vein, any way you can practice discipline and keep momentum of small or consistent successes will help, whether that’s at work or with a hobby. Good luck! I hope my comment wasn’t too stupid or off topic from what you were asking.

      1. Nye*

        Interesting take! I hiked the PCT a few years ago and while it was a great experience, I feel like it’s a different kind of persistence than work. It wasn’t always easy or fun, but it just seemed so much simpler than day-to-day work. (I had just finished a PhD, so not having to worry about anything except walking and eating was SO relaxing, in a way.)

        I wish it had transformed me into a super-productive person! Still working on that one.

        That said, your advice reminded me of how nice it was when I was hiking regularly (though not long-distance) while working. I do think it helps clear your head. Will have to figure out a local equivalent now that I live in a flat corner of the world. Thanks for the push!

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Start out by identifying areas where you think your persistence is weak.

      For me I felt my weak spot was dealing with problems on the job. Part of that stemmed from not knowing what to do if X broke, or what to do if we ran out of Y. So my solution was to go instance by instance and learn what to do. Here’s the kicker, at any moment there were at least 10 problems running concurrently. (Yeah, this place was amazing. But that is a side story.) So I had to learn to quickly figure out which of the 10 issues were priorities. Then I had to learn how to fix the problem itself. It took me years to drill down through that hot mess.

      Look around to see if you find patterns of times where you failed to press onward. See if you can break it down into actionable steps.

      Also, you probably aren’t going to like that I said this because it appears to be unhelpful: Try to figure out if your idea of working hard consistently is realistic? Do you see others doing what you think you should be doing? No, you cannot roll two ton rocks up hill all day long, day after day. Just, no.
      Your real solution might be to ask the boss for some growth assignments. See, not all hard workers get ahead. And that is because they failed to check to see if their hard efforts are something the company values. Find out what is of value to your boss, make darn sure you are doing those things.

  13. Tangled up in Hugh*

    I am a fairly new supervisor in a public library and I’m curious to hear perspectives from the librarians who post here — or really, from anyone who delivers telephone customer service — on how to handle a difficult customer service issue we’ve been facing.

    We have a homebound patron, Mr. Hugh, who calls our library’s telephone reference line repeatedly, asking very detailed questions about the history of teapot development in various foreign nations. These questions are beyond the scope of our collection, our online databases, or anything that can be Googled. Even if they weren’t, they are extremely advanced research questions that can’t be answered easily via a telephone call, particularly considering the librarian who answers the phone is also managing a busy reference desk with plenty of patrons visiting in-person. When we politely tell Mr. Hugh this, he becomes extremely agitated and, if it’s a female librarian who answers the phone, becomes verbally abusive. He then calls over and over and over until he either gets an answer, is permitted to argue endlessly with a supervisor about our inability to answer his questions, or finally gets tired of calling. This continues for days at a time, before he goes away for a few weeks, then resurfaces with a new, impossible-to-answer question.

    We’ve tried “banning” Mr. Hugh for one month, then for two months, then for three months. He refuses to honor the bans. When we say he’s prohibited from calling us and hang up, he continues to call. Our library’s director, lawyer, and public safety head all refuse to issue any more bans to Mr. Hugh, and have told us to try to answer his questions until he reaches the point where he’s truly abusive.

    As a supervisor, given that Mr. Hugh is verbally abusive, I want to direct my staff to say, “I’m sorry, but I’m ending the call now” as soon as we hear his voice, and then hanging up with no arguments — which seems to work best, as he’ll eventually get the message and give up — but the library director has sternly warned us that we must take his calls and try to, within reason, answer his questions.

    We suspect that Mr. Hugh is very elderly, possibly with dementia, and can’t help what he’s doing. Unfortunately, the constant, argumentative calls are disturbing our patrons (since it comes over the public reference desk) and is frazzling our staff. We have no support from administration on pursuing a permanent ban, police action, and IT can’t or won’t block his telephone number. HR is not an option at my library; they don’t respond to issues like these, or really to anything at all. I’m at my wit’s end and don’t know what card to play next, or if there even are any cards left to play and we just have to take a breath and deal with it. Help!

    1. Collie*

      Does public safety include the police here? If this patron was visiting the library in person and causing these problems, you’d get the police involved, no? I’m sorry the powers that be don’t have your back. This seems pretty unreasonable to continue dealing with.

    2. jax*

      One librarian I worked with would say something like “I would love to help you, but this conversation is no longer productive. Have a good day.” and then hang out/disconnect when patrons would get abusive.

      What would happen if an in patron person behaved this way? Would your director allow someone to stand at the desk and verbally abuse her employees? Have you framed it that way to her? That there needs to be consistently patron behavioral guidelines regardless of in person or on the phone?

    3. SophieChotek*

      Have you library director and lawyer handle his calls. Then maybe they’ll change their tune.
      Sorry no…I know that’s not constructive…

      1. A. Non*

        But it is not actually a bad idea. The director may not actually have worked a reference floor for a very long time, and may not have any idea how bad it is.

      2. Calacademic*

        I don’t work in a library, but my director has explicitly told us that callers like this should be directed to him. (We don’t tend to get repeat callers though and aren’t as public facing as a library…)

    4. Myrin*

      Does the library director actually hear these calls or does she just know of them because you (or others) have told her? Because if the latter, is it possible to just tell your staff to hang up regardless (and, if the director happens to ask about them, pretend that Mr. Hugh has stopped calling which I suppose might well happen if he doesn’t get any satisfaction from it anymore)?

    5. Emi.*

      I’m so sorry! What if you say, “We can’t answer that question, I’m afraid, but here’s the number for [academic library that could]”? You’d kind of be punting to the poor librarians there, but they might be able to keep him sufficiently supplied with info that he wouldn’t get so angry at them.

    6. Happy Lurker*

      If you have caller ID, use it and send him to voice mail. If you don’t have either, maybe it’s not too hard to get both activated? Certainly, less work than dealing with the man on the phone.
      I have a job applicant who called to berate me as to why we cannot hire them….straight voice mail he goes. His last voice mail was 2 mins long and he then called again the next day.

    7. i2c2*

      I’m a former public librarian and definitely recognize this type of situation. Does your reference desk have a policy about what to do with reference questions that are more in-depth than can be handled in the expected length of a reference desk transaction? Is there an option to take his question and call him back with a list of resources or directions for further research?

      1. fposte*

        This is what I’m thinking. Even non-abusive questions can be beyond the scope of reference, especially phone reference.

    8. LisaLee*

      Here are four things we use at my library, depending on the severity of the issue:

      1. Don’t pick up or block his number. I know you said IT won’t do this, but try calling your provider and asking for it to be blocked. The phone company has an interest in not letting you be harrassed over the phone, and hopefully they will help you. You might even be able to route the reference desk phone to a Google Voice number that will let you block him or send him to voicemail

      2. Find a local thick-skinned graduate student and next time Mr. Hugh calls, tell him you are now charging $X/hr (preferably 20-30) for in-depth research. It will be the graduate student’s job to perform the research and respond to Mr. Hugh. He is no longer allowed to discuss his queries with you, only with his designated researcher. The researcher will work very set hours a day, say 1-3pm, and Mr. Hugh is only allowed to call during those times. The researcher will only perform research as long as Mr. Hugh funds it.

      3. If it gets really bad, just start hanging up as soon as you hear his voice.

      4. If it gets really, really bad, just call the police anyway and file a report.

      1. Thomas*

        I’m uncomfortable with hiring a graduate student to do something like this. It’s not fair deem an interaction unacceptable for the staff to deal with, but acceptable for graduate student to do regardless of their pay or thick skin. Why should the graduate student incur that kind of abuse?

        1. LisaLee*

          We’ve only done this once (there were some extenuating circumstances that meant we could not just hang up), but in that case we flat out told the research assistant before they signed on that the person had dementia, was often abusive, and we needed a phone babysitter as much as a research assistant. The difference to me is that the student was hired specifically for the task of dealing with this difficult person and was fully informed going in. I don’t think its unfair to hire someone in a situation like this as long as they know the deal–there are many occupations where dealing with abusive people is part of the job already, like nursing

    9. AnotherLibrarian*

      The library I work at had the exact same issue. We had a patron, elderly male, probably with dementia who would call the library asking the same question over and over again.

      Eventually, we said that as a private institution, we would be charging him for his research, as we would any patron inquiry of that detail. We then did the research (we all have it memorized by now) sent him the material and an invoice.

      The invoice was never paid, but we also haven’t heard from him sense. Fingers crossed writing this will not summon a phone call.

      I would recommend simply stating that you can not answer the question with your resources and recommend that he contacts a private researcher. You can’t recommend one, as that is not permitted by policy, but refer him to an organization that might be able too. I have used this language with other problem patrons.

      Then, if he gets abusive, this is the language we used at our library, “Sir, I will not permit you to speak to me or my staff in that tone/language/way. So, I am ending this call.”

      And then hang up.

      Since your director is not sympathetic to your case, I would second the suggestions here about forwarding the call to them. Our problem patron would regularly ask to speak to a “person in charge” when we failed to answer some of his more insane inquiries.

    10. MuseumChick*

      Museums get this also, if I would try directing him to another resource. So, right down his very detailed question, wait and hour, call him back and say something like, “I’ve looked into your research request and unfortunaty our library doesn’t have the information your looking for. However, there is a teapot development museum that may have more information. Additionally, the *Much Larger Library* has a section on teapot development in Western Europe. I can give you their contact information if you like.”

      If that doesn’t work a good script is, “Mr. Huge, as I’ve stated our library doesn’t have the resources to another your question.” *He yells etc” “Mr. Hugh, again, we cannot answer you question. If you have no additional question I am going to terminate this call.” Then do that. If he calls back, “Mr. Hugh if you have not other questions I will have to terminate this call.” Repeat as needed.

      Teach your staff this and practice so they feel confident.

      1. MuseumChick*

        One other thing, keep a log of the class, their length, what he says etc. The more evidence you have to how much time this is taking up and the verbal abuse you and the staff are dealing with the better.

    11. Nanc*

      Full disclosure: I’m a 40+ year library volunteer and not a librarian. Our library has a great program where you can “Book a Reference Librarian” for an appointment–I want to say an hour but it might be 30 minutes. Could you do something like that? When he calls, book an appointment and ask him details about what he wants to research and do what you can to pull together some info without making it onerous. If you can proactively tell him you don’t have the books, but you can get it for him via intra-library loan for [your $cost here] or say that you know local university library has info and give him that number or offer him materials that are in the ball-park of the topic and remind him you don’t have the materials. Is there an industry magazine for his obscure topic (do you have any interns who could research it?). Many of them still send dead-tree versions free. You don’t necessarily need to subscribe for the library but you could let him know about it and how to subscribe. You could also try sending the info via letter (if he has a card and you have his current contact). Sometimes seeing it in dead tree form helps visual learners absorb the info.

      It sounds like you’ve pegged it that he might be in early stages of dementia or he may just be lonely and want someone smart to talk to. I know it’s more work, but if you can come up with a group plan and reach out to him with some basic info it might cut down on the number/length of phone calls. It’s still extra work on your part, but maybe it won’t be so stressful.

      Good luck and let us know what happens.

    12. librariandragon*

      We had a similar patron at a library I used to work at. He actually called us because his local public library refused to assist him any further, as he became incredibly abusive over the phone. In the end, we had all of his calls handled by one person, and when he did call he was immediately put on hold or transferred to that person’s direct line so that she would be the only one interacting with him. Luckily, she was a very practical and no-nonsense sort who was able to handle him without too much stress. He eventually stopped calling.

      What I think you need is not just to have one single person managing Mr. Hugh’s requests, but to clarify with your higher-ups exactly how much in-depth research you are allowed/supposed to be doing on behalf of patrons. I know it varies from library to library, but I can’t imagine they want you to drop everything at a public reference desk shift and abandon other tasks to do research for one patron.

      You need to phrase it as something that is impacting patron services, and negotiate a level at which you can say to a patron (beyond just Mr. Hugh) that you really can’t go more in depth at this time, and then provide them information for outside researchers who do that kind of thing for a fee. It’s not about not working with Mr. Hugh anymore, its about managing your staff resources effectively, and there should ALWAYS be a level at which you can and should be allowed to disengage.

    13. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

      I think you should ask the Director to model the next series of calls from Mr Hugh. When Mr Hugh calls, ask him to hold, then get the director on the line. Every. Single. Time. The Director needs to answer his questions with the current pressing interruption and not push it off on other staff. Director needs to take that call. Then see how quickly the Director starts to shut Mr Hugh down.

    14. Snarky Librarian*

      Oh I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this! That is a nightmarish situation to be in. If he calls the desk while the librarian is helping another patron can she put him on hold until she’s available to speak to him? At my library the patrons physically in front of you took precedence over callers. I’ve put one or two verbally abusive regulars on hold long enough for them to eventually go away while I helped the people patiently waiting in front of me. Or if your phone system allows, silence his calls and send them straight to voice mail. Referring him to an academic library (over and over again if you have to) is also a good idea. Sorry academic librarians!

      I second MuseumChick’s recommendation of keeping a log. In clear, unemotional language state the time and duration of his calls and record the exact verbal abuse he’s dumping on staff. Adding notes about the specific patrons at the desk who were disturbed or inconvenienced by his calls is helpful too, and then bring that log to your director. The director may not (or will not) do anything about it, but you will still have a written record to back you up.

    15. Tangled Up in Hugh*

      Thank you, everyone, for your responses. To answer some of the excellent points made here:

      1. He can’t be identified by caller ID; it comes up as “unknown caller,” as do many of our patrons.
      2. Our library director is relatively new and indeed has no idea how bad it is to deal with Mr. Hugh. I want to note that she is actually an exceptional director in virtually all other respects, but is weirdly obstinate on this one particular issue. The fact that the administration now all refuse to get involved, when they’ve gotten involved before, make me wonder if Mr. Hugh has threatened a lawsuit somehow.
      3. Any time we transfer Mr. Hugh to a higher leven person, it actually just makes matters worse. We’re enabling him.
      4. Offering to call him back is something we’ve tried, just so we could get his name and number to start a paper trail. He sees right through us and hangs up instantly whenever we ask–then instantly calls back and either asks the same question or demands to speak to a manager.
      4. Re: passing the buck to a more scholarly library, there’s no academic library or museum anywhere in the world that can answer the questions he dreams up. :-)

      1. Tangled Up in Hugh*

        Ha. This issue has me so frazzled that I did two number 4s!

        I also want to add, we have tried just putting him through to voicemail. And keeping him on hold endlessly. Neither worked…

      2. MuseumChick*

        Keep asking for his name and phone number!

        You/Staff: “Ok sir, I will look into that for you. What is a good phone number to reach you?
        *he hangs up and calls back*
        Him: *long detailed question*
        You/Staff: “Ok sir, I will look into that for you. What is a good phone number to reach you?
        *he hangs up and calls back*
        Him: “I want to speak with a manager!”
        You/Staff: “They are out of the office at the moment. What is a good phone number to reach you, I’ll have them call you back when they get in.”

        And it really doesn’t matter they there is another institution that can answer his questions. It’s about giving him something else to do.

        Don’t feel afraid to train your staff to hung up if he becomes verbally abusive. Write them out a script to read even.

        2. Evergreen*

          Me too!! Especially the next part: ‘I want to speak to a manager!’ ‘Ok, our director works 9-5 Monday to Friday, here’s her direct number’.

      3. Mona Lisa Saperstein*

        Re: #2 and #3 – I agree with some of the other commenters that getting your director to understand the extent of the problem could be really helpful. To the director, I might frame it as “Would you mind if we transfer you the next few Mr. Hugh calls so that you can model how you’d like us to respond to him?” And to Mr. Hugh, to avoid the problem of enabling him/making him feel validated by moving his calls up the chain, I wouldn’t wait for him to get angry and demand a supervisor, and then explicitly say “I’m transferring you over to Cersei, our director” – I would wait for him to ask his question, and then say “I’m transferring you over to Cersei, she can help you.” And leave it at that.

        Even if he’s threatened a lawsuit somehow, I can’t imagine a reasonable attorney taking on that case, and I can’t imagine what grounds on which he could possibly sue. This is sort of a weird hill for your director to die on and if she’s forced to consistently deal with Mr. Hugh, I feel like she might relent.

      4. Panda Bandit*

        If it turns out he did threaten a lawsuit, what would it even be about? At some point a lawyer or judge will see his questions and realize that they’re beyond what a regular library can answer.

        1. Marisol*

          Yeah, if I were in that position I’d have an attitude of, “ok, go ahead and sue–see you in court.”

    16. Marisol*

      Is there any way to record the calls? Would a transcription of the recording help to build a case for why he needs to be banned?

      1. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

        Depending on her state it may not be legal to record without his consent, and he will likely just refuse.

        1. Marisol*

          If she’s in a state where two party consent isn’t required, it’s a non-issue, and if she is in a state where both parties must consent, it might be possible to make help contingent on being recorded.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Almost every other place I call has the message, “This call may be monitored for quality assurance control.”

        Even if you can’t program that into your phone system, can you say, “Mr. Hugh just so you are aware, our phone call maybe monitor for quality assurance reasons.” OR more clearly said, “Mr. Hugh, just so you are aware, our library has started a new system of monitoring calls for the purpose of customer training. This call may or may not be recorded I have no way of knowing. I must tell you that before we start the conversation.”

    17. Marisol*

      So normally I’m a hard ass about this kind of stuff, and favor cutting off people who are jerks, but if you want to go the kind, compassionate route, do you have any way you can hook this guy up with social services? Do you have a home address for him where you could send a social worker? I have no idea what the ethics or legalities are for this kind of thing, but if he’s demented and needs help, surely there is a way to hook that up.

      Or, since you’re already wasting time speaking to him, can you try to identify what he really needs, since it seems to be attention more than information? Would it be out of line to ask some leading questions that might give you some ideas as to how to help him? Something innocuous, like “how is your day going?” or possibly, “may I ask what your interest is in teapots?” something that might serve to redirect the conversation without violating any boundaries. Obviously you’re not going to ask “have you been diagnosed with mental illness?” but perhaps you could get him to volunteer something that would lead to you being able to offer help. He might still pester you, but might stop being abusive.

      Normally I discourage people from taking on too much emotional labor, but in this case, you’re already spending a lot of time an energy on this, so it might be the path of least resistance and also be a very kind thing to do for an old person who needs help.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I was thinking along the same lines because clearly your higher ups are not going to help you.
        My thought was do you have a local church that is popular, where the pastor is well-liked?
        Maybe you could call up the church, tell them the situation and ask if they can do a welfare check. Some churches are amazing in what they are willing to do.

        1. Kj*

          Police do welfare checks as well. Usually for safety, but if folks think this is dementia, they should be able to have the police check and make sure he has access to services and support. Maybe alert his caregivers to his “hobby” of calling the library. You just call 911 with a name and address and ask for a welfare check. I have done it before.

    18. ModernHypatia*

      Coming to this late, sorry! A couple of other things that have helped with similar patrons
      – I gather his questions are about all different kinds of topics, right? If they’re roughly the same, then you can do the “Here’s the information we have, this is the limit of what we can do.” with a handout sheet, etc.

      – I worked somewhere where we had a different variant of this kind of problem patron (asked the same tech questions every time he was in for weeks, was creepy at our student workers, was very difficult when there was any change in his preferred routine, computer, etc. We were an academic library, so any repairs/renovation/etc. had to happen over breaks, and he’d be up in arms about it for weeks.)

      He was fine with me (and I was fine dealing with him, so long as I could walk away when he hit reasonable limits) so I dealt with him when I was around, and if I wasn’t everyone else said “Oh, so sorry, she’s the best person to help with your question.” (which was actually also true job-title wise). Eventually he gave up, at least for a few months.

      – Definitely push back on any requirement that staff stay on the line once he gets verbally abusive. That’s not fair to your staff. Trying to answer his question is one thing, but if he doesn’t desist from abuse after maybe one “If you continue speaking to me like that, I will have to end the call.” (and definitely point out that it’s affecting service to other patrons: as a library user and give a few examples.) Whether the solution is to transfer him to a manager, or hanging up or what, when he gets abusive, there needs to be something frontline staff can do when the conversation gets completely non-productive.

      – There’s some good training material out there about dealing with difficult patrons – it’s been a while since I looked for specific things, but this makes a great staff training day exercise or something for managers to discuss as a group, or whatever.

      – If you have at least some identifying info (like a full name and maybe town?) it might be worth calling the county elder services or mental health services (or your equivalent) and saying “We know you can’t tell us anything, but we have this ongoing thing, and we wondered if maybe he should be getting services or care he isn’t.” Sometimes that can help get needed care, or help make sure there’s a caregiver with him who can redirect him from making tons of calls, or whatever makes sense. (Because chances are, you’re not the only people he’s doing this pattern to.)

    19. Drago cucina*

      Ugh, sorry the director isn’t backing you up on not taking his calls. As a public library director I tell my staff that they don’t have to tolerate abuse like this. I concur with referring the calls to your director. Part of her job is dealing with these issues.

      I would also sit down with the director and express concern that the direction to take his calls is putting the library at risk. In more than one case libraries have lost lawsuits brought by employees because the director and board didn’t act to prevent harassment. The repeated, abusive calls could be construed as harassment.

    20. ScarletInTheLibrary*

      We have a reference desk email and try to direct patrons with more complex questions to use the email. Or to mail them to the library. That way it’s in writing.

  14. OwnedByTheCat*

    Ok, moms of AAM:

    Just found out I’m pregnant last weekend, due in November. We’re super excited but I’m already stressing out about work.

    1. I AM SO TIRED. I haven’t had terrible morning sickness yet (crossing my fingers) but I feel like I’ve been hit by the sleepy train and can barely function. I have a MAJOR event in three weeks. How did you make it through your first trimester without a) falling asleep under your desk and b) people figuring out it out?

    2. I’m already stressed about going back to work vs. quitting my job. I know it’s not worth stressing out about now, but I spend an inordinate amount of time wondering if I can go part-time,etc and what my boss will say. I work at a school and my whole team is women and all but one of them are mothers, so I think i’ll have a lot of support. And yet I stress.

    1. jm*

      First, congratulations!
      I found taking naps on my lunch break helped a lot. I would work and eat at my desk, then go to my car, turn the A/C on, and sleep for an hour.
      It’s funny how some people figure out quickly that you’re pregnant (my boss guessed early on but didn’t say anything), and others won’t know until super late. I am pretty tall and, ahem, big-boned/heavyset, so there were literally people at my office who didn’t know I was pregnant, and I was 7 months along…my body hid it well.

      1. Cinnamon Owl*

        I’m 5’3″, and was pregnant at the same time as my 6′ coworker. She looked a lot more graceful.

    2. Dee-Nice*

      *swoops into seat across the table from you*

      Hello. This was me last year. The Sleepy Train is real and deep. I sit in an open area and live in a major metropolitan area (so, no car) and my only option sometimes was to sit in a bathroom stall and close my eyes for five minutes. Yes, I did this. I also HATE having a secret, so I told everyone in my office after about 10 weeks and that helped because people were very understanding. I know it’s not feasible/comfortable for everyone, but may be worth considering?

      Ideally, yeah, you wouldn’t stress about the back-to-work decision quite yet, just because not stressing would be nicer for you but– it IS a stressful decision and it’s not irrational for you to be worried about it. You won’t really know how you feel until the baby is here. I LOVE my baby. I HATED being home all day. The first day I got back to work was like the first vacation I’d had in months. YMMV. You are 100% entitled to whatever leave your employer provides, so take it, guilt-free, and see how you feel.

      And– Congratulations! Whatever advice anyone gives you, just know that nothing can really prepare you for it, but you WILL figure it out.

    3. straws*

      Don’t worry too much about symptoms you haven’t had yet (morning sickness). You may never had them! I never had morning sickness, and only a little nausea related to heartburn in the 3rd trimester (I’m terribly prone to heartburn to begin with). I was definitely tired throughout my whole pregnancy. I honestly can’t remember doing anything big about it. I just powered through and made comments about sleeping poorly. I drank a lot of water and tried to eat really well, because that typically made me feel better when I wasn’t pregnant. So whatever food choices tend to make you feel more energized and healthy, go with those more frequently!

      Try not to stress about going back to work yet. You’ll have PLENTY of time to stress about it later. Do think it over and think about various situations you might end up in, but don’t worry too much about which one you’ll end up in. You want to be prepared, but not drive yourself crazy.

      1. Parenthetically*

        I only had queasiness, smell-sensitivity, and a very touchy gag reflex, and I felt so guilty about it with so many of my friends vomiting multiple times a day for the first 24 weeks!

        1. straws*

          I’m right there with you. I had SUCH an easy pregnancy, and I knew almost a dozen other women pregnant around the same time (something was in the water??). I felt so guilty that they had all of the stereotypical terrible pregnancy issues, and I had almost none of them!

          1. OwnedByTheCat*

            I’m SO grateful so far to not have morning sickness. 5 weeks in so I’m thinking I might get off without it. But I am freezing all the time, smell bad smells from ten miles away, and my boobs are about to explode. The being cold is the worst so far. My husband came home yesterday and I had the heat on at 80 degrees and was still wearing socks and a sweater.

            1. Parenthetically*

              I had to laugh at “my boobs are about to explode”! Sympathies! I felt like my boobs hurt ALL THE TIME, but especially in the cold — like they’d be aching with cold when the rest of my body was just cool. Pregnancy! The weirdest!

            2. Busytrap*

              I genuinely hope to heck you do get away without it because it is the WORST. I’m 9 weeks pregnant with my first, and the morning sickness hit about two weeks ago, so you’re not out of the woods yet. I have officially silent-vomited into every trashcan in the office. And on the side of the road. And in the bathroom at restaurants. It is real, and it is awful. But I got my hot little hands on some drugs earlier this week, and they have been amazeballs. I feel human again! So if you do get it – check in with your doc to see if you can get some meds. Because I literally could not work while I had the sickness. :)

    4. Andy*

      Congratulations! Babies are the BEST!
      everyone’s situation is going to play out differently, and for me even each baby/leave played out different from the last. The only thing you can really do is try to stay on top of your reactions (I get overly reactive while pregs), get as much rest as possible, and if someone mentions that you haven’t been yourself just agree and chalk it up to a fleeting relationship with a mild stomach bug…if you don’t feel like disclosing of course!
      You’re not being unreasonable by thinking about what December and January will bring you, btw. It’s good to get a start on chewing through the decisions you’ll have to make. Maybe you could talk to a work friend who’s recently been on maternity leave?
      and again, congratulations, and take heart and strength that in this wild world there are others near you who have done it and are doing it with at least a modicum of success!

    5. Cinnamon Owl*

      Congratulations!

      Exhaustion usually gets measurably better at the end of the first trimester, especially with a first pregnancy. (I think mostly because you don’t have tiny fast irrational people also sapping your energy from without.) But that looks like it’s more than 3 weeks out for you. All I can recommend is to cut out anything extra that you can, especially from the evenings. Go to bed. Don’t watch netflix, don’t straighten up, don’t check email one more time, just fall into bed and sleep. And is there anywhere at work you can lie down for 10 minutes? This is the opposite of not looking like you’re pregnant–our couch was in the room set aside for pumping milk–but just getting horizontal for 10 minutes can really help.

      Just be cautious of cat naps at work, which when pregnant tend to be less a brief invigorating doze and more an inescapable coma that you foggily crawl out of two hours later.

      1. OwnedByTheCat*

        Thank you – I went to bed at 8pm last night. That seemed late for me! I think I will have to embrace a 7pm bedtime for the next few weeks :)

    6. Murphy*

      Congrats! I’m pretty isolated at work, so really nobody noticed. (I did have morning sickness in that I felt nauseous, but I was not actually throwing up.) My friends did though, but they let me tell them the news when I was ready. I think you can be honest about not feeling well if you feel like your productivity is suffering without revealing what’s happening. Take a sick day if you really need it, can afford to with your workload. Rest whenever you can.

    7. Sled dog mama*

      1. I didn’t, people guessed before I told them but had the sense to keep their mouths shut. I was also lucky in that since I was explicitly not paid for my lunch break I felt ok closing my door and taking a 20 minute nap. I also took a 20 minute nap every day when I got home.

      2. Try not to stress about it, you’ll make the best decision for you and your family. That won’t make the decision any easier but it will be your decision nobody else’s, practice the line “I haven’t decided yet” or whatever you feel is appropriate to tell colleagues and have it ready the day you announce. It’s nobody’s business but people ask.

    8. Parenthetically*

      Oh bless your heart!!

      1) NOBODY TOLD ME ABOUT THE TIREDNESS. It was honestly like nothing I have ever experienced before — the only thing remotely comparable is the jet-lag I’ve had after very long international journeys. I made sure to take my prenatal religiously, plus supplemental B12 and zinc; have SOMETHING caffeinated mid-morning or at noon (my poison was glass-bottle Coke because I couldn’t stomach coffee or tea); and stay extremely hydrated. I’m aiming for 3 liters of water a day, and it’s hard for me, but I have way more energy when I do. Plus, just sleep whenever you can. My midwife jokes that every time you get hit with a nap attack, you’re building a spleen or some blood vessels or something. Rest as much as possible. There is no shame in an 8 pm bedtime.

      2) My stress/anxiety in those early weeks was absolutely bananas, so if that’s you, please feel free to give yourself space to make that decision when you’re a little less wound up. My anxiety levels have dropped a lot since about week 15, FWIW.

      Congratulations!

      2. paperfiend*

        I described the sleepiness as “the sleep fairy whacks me over the head with her magic wand”. My poor husband – for the first half of my pregnancy, I’d get home from work, eat the dinner he had prepared, and then sleep on the sofa until time to get in the actual bed and sleep some more.

        1. OwnedByTheCat*

          This is apt. And my husband is like “well you’re tired and stressed out all the time” and here I am wondering if I can literally roll from the couch to the bed.

        2. Bend & Snap*

          Oh man! I would come home, get into bed fully dressed, eat dinner in bed, rally for a shower and jammies and then back to bed. I easily slept 13 hours a day on weekdays in early pregnancy and pretty much around the clock on weekends.

          It gets better!

      3. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

        The tiredness is real. I remember with my first that I’d nap during lunch, come home, eat dinner, and go to bed. It was insane.

        My second wasn’t nearly as bad. I remember commenting that either the pregnancy was just easier on me or I was just used to functioning while completely exhausted.

    9. Sandy Gnome*

      Congratulations!
      Everyone and every pregnancy is unique, so know that this is just what I found worked for me. I was super tired during my first trimester. I coped by doing only what was necessary both at work and at home. I had the type of job where the work was never done (but I wasn’t dealing with extreme deadlines), so when 4:00 came, I would leave. The work would still be there the next day. I slept in my car on breaks occasionally. I did my best to get to bed earlier as well. If you’re able, it might help to take a personal day here and there to stay home and rest. Just having a day where I felt no pressure to accomplish anything was really beneficial.
      While I thought I was hiding my fatigue, I did have a couple coworkers who were suspicious, and even some who had the boldness to ask. I told them to keep it to themselves until I was ready to share with others.
      As others have commented, it’s hard to know how you will feel about working or not until you’ve actually had your baby. I was glad to get back to work after maternity leave, but what I hadn’t been prepared for was being contacted by another company while I was out on leave about working for them. The increase in pay and the cut in commute (almost 2 hours less driving) made it an easy decision for me. So while I did return to work, it was only to work out my notice period before leaving to start a new job.

    10. Hlyssande*

      My BFF ended up having to take a leave of absence early in her second pregnancy to simply SLEEP because she wasn’t getting it with her normal work schedule (and a 3 year old). Without it she was having constant, horrible morning sickness and losing weight at an alarming rate.

      When she first arranged the leave, her hubby thought it meant they could not pay for daycare for the 3 year old for that time… ahahaha no. The three year old was partly responsible for the lack of sleep (they were living in the basement due to an upstairs redo in prep for new baby at the time, so friendo couldn’t retreat behind a closed door once kid was up).

      Every pregnancy is different Take whatever leave your work allows (and if you have extra vacation, take that too if you want!), and take care of yourself! And congrats!

    11. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

      Yay! So happy for you. Babies are wonderful.

      I was one of those poor unfortunate souls with hyperemesis gravidarum, so I’ve had lots of experience trying to control nausea, but as bad as it was, the exhaustion was the hardest to deal with. I could fall asleep (and admittedly DID) if my mind was not engaged fully. My boss was very supportive of me taking 10-15 min cat naps in my car on my break or at lunch. One thing that did help with exhaustion and nausea is taking a B complex vitamin. It’s water soluble so if you take “too much”, it just gets peed out.

      1. Neruda*

        Fellow HG survivor here! Congrats on making it through. It’s not something anyone who hasn’t been through it will understand. Other people: You had morning sickness? Hahahaha let’s talk sickness my friend, you ain’t seen nothing! Worst part for me was that napping made it worse in the second half of my pregnancy. I stopped the constant vomiting by 20 weeks but if I napped, I threw up. Awful!

        To the OP, this thread had some great advice. Try to let anything slide that you can (housework, socialising etc). You need the rest! And remember, this too shall pass!

    12. Tuckerman*

      So, not a parent. But I did go to grad school while working full time, so I found myself beyond exhausted regularly. If you have vacation days, can you schedule 2 or 3 half (or even better, full) days off over the next month or so? A half day off in the middle of the week where you can just sleep might help your energy level. When I was in school, it also helped to be able to look forward to a few “free” hours.
      And Congrats!!!

    13. Thlayli*

      25% of women never get morning sickness at all and over 90% of women are over the morning sickness by 12 weeks. If you haven’t had it by 6 weeks there’s a good Chance you won’t get it at all.

      The tiredness in the first trimester is mainly caused by you making the placenta. The baby is so tiny it takes barely any of your energy till the third trimester (which is why second trimester is the good one after placenta is grown but before baby gets really big). But in the first trimester you make the whole placenta and it doesn’t grow much after that.

      The placenta contains 4 whole pints of your blood! Yes that’s right you make an extra 4 pints in 8 weeks – half your entire blood volume. it’s the equivalent of donating blood every 2 weeks.

      Eat lots of red meat or other iron-containing foods and take pregnancy vitamins. The vitamins contain iron but it’s in a form that’s hard to digest so eating lots of red meat is the best thing to do. Ideally three times a week. And drink lots of water. If you are already exercising then continue within reason (so long as it’s not a contact sport) and eat as healthily as you can – and sleep as much as you can in the evenings. All these things helped me a lot.

      Good luck I hope it all works out for you.

    14. New Name, Who's This*

      Congratulations!

      Does your job allow you to work from home at all? Not having to worry about someone seeing you actually nod off for a moment is very helpful. My morning sickness has been kind of rough but I’ve been able to telecommute when I need to. (If anyone has guessed that my stomach issues are actually a pregnancy, they haven’t said or hinted at it.)

      I suspect the vitamin B6 also helps with tiredness.

    15. New Bee*

      Congratulations! I had my baby last November and also have a birthday that month; it’s a great one. :-)

      It’s normal to stress about going back to work, and you really can’t know how you’ll feel until it’s imminent. When you feel comfortable, definitely talk to your coworkers about what they did, pumping arrangements (if you’re breastfeeding), childcare, etc. You don’t mention what you do at the school (former teacher here), but my friends who are still in the classroom say their schools have been way more flexible than they might have expected. Wishing you a healthy pregnancy and baby!

  15. Fishcakes*

    I’m in a frustrating situation at work that I don’t know how to resolve.

    I have to get information and documents from my co-workers. They’re all pleasant people, but the majority of them are not quite up to the task, cogntively. I ask simple questions (e.g, “Can you please see if you can find x file? It is mentioned in this document but I cannot find it on your department’s network drive.”) and most of the time my request is not understood and I either get an incorrect answer/file, or I get dragged into a 30-40 minute conversation as a confused co-worker tries to sort out what I want. Giving them more information seems to make it worse. I’ve tried asking things verbally and in writing.

    This is a real problem right now because I’ve just discovered that for the past 20 years critical information has not been recorded and saved properly, and a lot of it is missing. This information absolutely has to be located, organized, and stored coherently, or we are in violation of several provincial laws. My boss is furious and wants me to make my co-workers, who are responsible for most of the errors and missing information, fix it. However, they literally can’t sort this mess out themselves. They can’t even comprehend what the problem is, let alone organize and carry out a strategy to resolve it. My boss is very fond of these people, as they’ve all worked here forever, and won’t listen to me when I try to explain the situation to her.

    Any suggestions? Stories of similar situations?

    1. AndersonDarling*

      I’ve found that people do this to cover their behinds when they know they messed up and they don’t want to admit it. I’d guess that your co-workers knew that keeping these documents was part of their jobs and they didn’t keep them, or else they didn’t even document the information they were supposed to. Acting like you don’t understand the question, or diverting the question into a long, unrelated story are methods of distraction.
      It sounds like you recognized that they dropped the ball. You could try deferring the blame right up front, “I know this wasn’t your responsibility at the time, but can you help me…” Maybe they won’t feel challenged and be more willing to help?
      It’s a tough spot to be in. Good luck!

      1. Fishcakes*

        This was an issue before the major mess-up was revealed, but I wasn’t under pressure then to wave a magic wand and make these people do work they’re incapable of. We’re in the process of moving over to a new filing system and the employees in charge of that job are ALSO rather incapable, so the files aren’t categorized correctly or are scanned all together (seriously, imagine 1000 letters (and random documents that don’t belong there) scanned together as one massive PDF named “letters”), and the employees who are supposed to use the new file system can’t grasp its basic rules and also can’t find anything in it because nincompoops set it up. So it’s just a sh*t-show of epic proportions over here.

        1. Coalea*

          Ugh! I have no constructive advice to offer (in fact, I’m dealing with a similar situation, although on a smaller scale), but you have my sympathies!

        2. OfficeBtch*

          I also have no advice, but plenty of empathy! At my old job, someone at the other branch location’s interpretation of “going paperless” was “box up 25 years of paperwork and ship it to someone else to deal with.” (Yep, that someone was me!)

        3. Not So NewReader*

          People need to be trained on the filing system. If they do not understand it then they need further training.
          People also need to be allowed time to fix the 20 years of bad files. This is not something that can be solved instantly. I am kind of ticked at your boss for not understanding the scope and the severity of the problem.

          Yes, this one hits me directly. I have 30 years of files that I need to clean up ON TOP of my regular work. My solution is that if I have to dig out a particular old file, I clean THAT single file and I put it in its new home. At this rate it will take me about 200 years to fix what is wrong.

          I am not allowed to have extra time to do this. My boss cannot hire and train another person to help bail us out, she’s not allowed. Personally, I do not have enough training/knowledge to know that I am doing an accurate job, this means that I work even slower.

          To me, this is a management failure. Ask your boss what he would like you to do to make these people cooperate with your requests. Tell him what you have tried so far and ask him what is next.

    2. Sadsack*

      When you say she won’t listen, what exactly do you mean? Have you asked her to tell you how you are to go about working with them when x, y, and z haven’t worked?

      1. SophieChotek*

        Yes…can you document? Every time?’

        I asked Jane for this file, missing in X report, on this date..and Jane said..X (she didn’t have it, it took her 40 minutes to find it with me by her side, she sent back file Z, when I clearly asked for file Y)…

        Your boss is probably equally embarrassed that all this has gone missing under her watch..but in some ways…it sounds like this is on her for not catching it…avoiding the issue won’t help…

      2. Fishcakes*

        She says, “keep trying!” I mean, I haven’t straight up said that I think many of my co-workers have cognitive limitations, but I have given examples of when they haven’t understood a simple request. I also have explained that I believe they aren’t capable of fixing the major problem themselves, or of even providing support to me as I fix it.

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          Send an email with detailed instructions on what you need, give a firm deadline, and CC your boss.

        2. LCL*

          Someone, and it might well be you, is going to have to give each of these persons some one on training on how to save and store computer files. It sounds like they don’t computer very well, yet the information you need is supposed to be in the company network. A basic tutorial on how and where to save files will reduce the problem going forward. They are probably saving the files locally and don’t realize there are different drive spaces and different uses for them.

          Even if they have been using computers since the mid nineties, practices have evolved. And people who have been using computers since way back when, if they aren’t IT or software people, will default to saving things on their local computer drive. Everyone used to do it that way, sounds like some of them still are.

          1. Elizabeth West*

            This situation is just begging for a procedural document written in very easy-to-read language, with clear steps for what they should do every single time.

            2. Trillian*

              And possibly also some judicious resetting of software defaults so documents wind up in an accessible location.

          2. Fishcakes*

            They have been given numerous computer training courses and document retention courses, most of them delivered one on one by the (frustrated) IT manager. They have procedural manuals. This isn’t just a computer issue. This is an issue of not understanding simple concepts and instructions.

            1. zora*

              If the IT manager is frustrated, they are probably not doing a good job of training. I would try again, and make sure they are really absorbing what they need to know.

          3. zora*

            This is what I was going to say: Training.

            I would tell your boss: I need to organize a mandatory training for everyone on how this works, and exactly how to find and save the files that we need. It has been too long since they learned how to do this, and everyone needs an update urgently. When can I schedule that training?

            Write out all the details and logistics of how to organize this training, either all together in a group, or spending 2 hours sitting with each person and going through it. It seems like a lot of work, but it will be WAY more efficient than having a long back and forth each time someone doesn’t do it right.

            Then also, create a document. A clear flow chart, with screen shots, of exactly what needs to happen every time, have them laminated and posted next to each person’s computer.

            This becomes a problem when people have been at their job for a really long time as technology has changed around them.

            1. Troutwaxer*

              And use Word’s feature which allows you to set the language to a particular grade level. With these folks, probably a low grade level.

              Also, I’m guessing that the IT person has similar frustrations. Do you think they might help you raid the hard drives of your coworkers and see what information they have stashed there?

              1. Chaordic One*

                Could you tell us a bit more about this feature? I’m not familiar with it. What’s it called? How do you access it? (I don’t normally use Word, but there’s probably something similar in other word-processing applications if I knew what to look for.)

          4. TootsNYC*

            Since you’re stuck working with them to solve this, maybe you pick discreet tasks and train each person on only ONE of them. If you genuinely thing these people have cognitive problems, this might be your best bet.

            Basically, see if you can think of tactics you would use if your company deliberately made it a practice to hire the cognitively impaired, and see if you can organize this task to work within their limitations.

            If you need some help, is there someone around you who teaches adults with Down Syndrome, or something similar? Even if these folks don’t have that level of cognitive impairment, stealing some techniques from that field might be helpful.

            So one person gets instructions for how to scan a single document to a single PDF. And a careful procedural sheet.

            And you spend two weeks not worrying about progress on the project, but just one training exercises with these people on their one job.
            So they don’t have to process too many things, and so you can just drill them, over and over, to do only one step.

        3. Zooey*

          Just curious, are they cognitively challenged in other ways or just acting like it when they have to respond to your requests?

          1. Fishcakes*

            In other ways. It’s not an attempt to get out of doing work. They actually work very hard, just not effectively or correctly.

            1. Coalea*

              Yeah, I’m a little confused by what you mean when you say, “not quite up to the task, cogntively.” Like, are we talking actual cognitive impairments/deficits (eg, learning disabilities, dementia), or just people who aren’t too bright?

              If it’s the latter, and if they “work very hard, just not effectively or correctly,” why are they still in their positions?

            2. LCL*

              There is a piece missing here. You haven’t told us because you are new there and don’t know what the missing piece is yet. If your job doesn’t go out of the way to hire people with cognitive issues, it doesn’t seem likely that the majority of your coworkers are incapable of learning how to save files.

              I think it would be good for you to meet individually with a few of the workers who have been there a long time and ask them about the history of the group, and why things are done this way.

    3. it happens*

      This sounds like you’re trying to manage a pretty huge project. Maybe you could collect a number of the requests you have and then have an in-person meeting with your boss, the people who aren’t quite getting it (and their boss if not the same as yours…) Perhaps this eye-to-eye meeting explaining the end-state goal, their part in it (using the specific requests) would be useful. And if they really can’t get it, your boss is present to witness…

    4. Jill of All Trades*

      This sounds like your boss has her head in the sand.

      I would just start keeping a list of the files and what action you took for each, e.g. “Spent 20 minutes explaining to [x] what was needed, but received incorrect file.” This can show that you are at least trying to make progress. Save the emails you send as well.

      I know it’s a pain to do documentation on top of the work you already have, but every time I have an issue, people don’t usually respond unless I show them concrete examples of where the struggle is.

      Maybe you could also take a look at how you’re explaining what the files are. If it’s a situation where there’s company-specific language that doesn’t match with the industry norm, that could be part of why you’re running into the issue. For example, my company uses the term “alert” to mean “work order.” Not sure if this is applicable in your case, but it could be something for you to ask your boss alongside the evidence provided via the documentation mentioned above.

      1. Fishcakes*

        If I was a smarter person I’d stick my head in the sand, too. I’m new and it shouldn’t matter to me if this has a large and negative impact on the company. Really it’s my boss’s job to manage this. But it just sticks in my craw that things are SO WRONG.

        I’m going to have to document everything even if it’s a headache. I’ve started doing that on other projects to cover my behind.

        You make a good point re differing terms, however I’m using common company terms (memo, policy, letter, document).

    5. LKW*

      I work in document management – the best argument I’ve ever presented was this study done almost 20 years ago by what was then PWC / CL about the cost of not managing documents correctly. I don’t remember the specifics but in short it basically found that the cost to find a missing document was roughly 5x the cost to file it correctly the first time and the cost to replace a missing document was roughly 10x the cost to file it correctly the first time. Again – those specifics are not necessarily correct but you get the point.

      Turn this from a regulatory issue to a cost issue. Help your supervisor and other leadership see the cost result of this situation. That seems to make people pay attention better than regulatory risk.

      1. Fishcakes*

        That’s a good point, however my boss doesn’t need to be told how valuable this is. She could be fired (and knows it) if this information is not located.

        1. zora*

          Yeah, it’s sounding like it’s the lack of consequences that is the problem here. Have these people been made to understand that everyone’s jobs are in jeopardy if this isn’t fixed? Because there will be actual legal consequences.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          snark/ Then she needs to go look for it./snark

          I guess I would start saying things like “There is more than one problem running here.”

          Is there a way you can let her see what an example search actually entails?

    6. zora*

      Hm, well since you are pretty sure it’s not a technological issue.

      Your boss is furious, so realizes this problem is serious, but is the boss communicating that to these coworkers? Can you point that out? “I need you to make it clear that you are furious and that this is incredibly serious and puts our company in serious legal trouble. Can we have an all hands meeting where you explain that this is a major priority and you need everyone to work with me to fix this?”

      1. Fishcakes*

        Oh we had an urgent meeting and she gave everyone a big lecture. No one really participated but me, and the others sort of just nodded vacantly and afterwards were like, “well that must have been someone else, because I don’t make mistakes.” They don’t really understand what’s going on, even though it was clearly explained several times. Boss is satisfied that they’re all on board now and hasn’t been in the office since.

        1. zora*

          Gah. This sounds awful, I’m sorry. I think what was discussed above of just documenting every single time something is screwed up and going back to the boss with a list is your only option now.
          Basically the only thing that is going to change things is if each and every one of these people is told they will be fired if they don’t get it together, but it sounds like the boss has been lenient with everyone for far too long and if she continues being “fond” of them they will never get it and she will be screwed.

          You were just the one who came along right when the sh*t hit the fan, and that sucks. I think just try to stay calm and decide you are going to spend your days reiterating procedure over and over and then you will walk out the door when the day is over and just do what you can for now. It doesn’t feel good to those of us who want things DONE CORRECTLY, but do lots of self-care and just take it one day at a time for right now. Eventually this will come to a head one way or the other, and that’s above your paygrade. But UGH, good luck!!

        2. Not So NewReader*

          I would give her examples of the types of responses you are getting to your inquiries.

          I would also mention to her that they had that disconnected, vacant look in their eyes when she was talking to them.

          Also I would tell them myself that the boss is getting angry that we are not providing her with the information she needs.

          In short, refuse to be the buffer between these people and your boss. Let your boss know and let the people know things are not well.

    7. Alli525*

      I’ve read through the comments below, and I’m left wondering if the documents are generated from a certain process that can be systemized somehow. Like, let’s say a work order comes in and the RFP is never saved down. Is there a way to change the process so that (for example) in order to move to the next step of the job, you have to submit an uploaded copy of the RFP to your intranet? I’m imagining a web form with *Required Field next to an upload box … We obviously don’t know what your work situation is, but maybe if you changed the way the work flow plays out – yeah it would be an adjustment for these pleasant-but-cognitively-challenged employees, but you’re already asking them to adjust and it isn’t working, so making the adjustment mandatory (“This form says I can’t move forward until I submit this doc” is a pretty easy concept to understand) might help.

      This was a problem at my last job (admins would never save down itineraries or other important travel docs, so when they left and we needed to take a historic look back at what a repeat client needed for the next trip… nada) and I didn’t have the standing to enforce anything, so it frustrated the hell out of me too. And that wasn’t even a compliance issue, just a customer service/ease of use issue!!

  16. Anon for this*

    I’m a regular around here – I just didn’t want to post under my username.

    Here is the background with my career. I graduated in a super shitty economy, and took an admin job because it was all I could find. After a little over 2 years, I learned admins at my work place were always going to stay admins. I started looking for a job that would provide growth, I found one quickly and left. It ended up being insane and toxic (constant screaming, etc). I then started to read AAM and tried to screen the next job better. I specifically said I wanted to grow into Project Management, and they said they can provide this. At my 3 month check in they also reaffirmed that they see this growing in a project management direction.

    I have been here a year and a half, and am pretty sure this ‘growth’ was another lie. I have consistently asked, only to be given very small tasks. The goal-posts keep moving on me, first I wasn’t ready, then I needed to take X class, then I needed to talk more to my coworkers and ask if I can assist them, then I was finally given what my boss called a ‘project’ but really it took about 20 minutes. I get tasks from coworkers and help them out when I can. A coworker recently left, and another coworker asked if I could take over X. My boss (and I heard this all secondhand) told her she doesn’t think it looks good if an admin is involved in a project. It is pretty clear that I won’t be getting what I want here.

    What exactly should I do now. I don’t like being an admin and need to find another career. I have good reviews, and I think I am pretty good at my job. Should I just try and apply for non-admin jobs based on the small amount of extra work I have? Should I apply for more admin jobs and go back on that merry-go-round (after the last two jobs, I just, don’t trust I won’t be lied to). Do I try and have one more last ditch – I expected to do XYZ, why hasn’t this happened conversation with my boss? Do I try and wait it out and transfer internally (a possibility but jobs I want don’t come around so often).

    1. NaoNao*

      I think that you need to move on from this job, but also you need formal training in project management. I would get an office manager or “higher” admin job and start taking certification classes for PMP. I don’t know this for sure, but I feel like anecdotally, it’s pretty rare that admins move into other positions *in the same office or job*. Admin work is seen by many (wrongly, but still) as the lowest, least skilled job in the office totem pole. You will likely have to start fresh.
      I don’t think it’s helpful to think of it as being “lied to”–many offices and jobs have every intention of growing their people and retaining them and promoting them. But then the economy shifts, a new CEO comes in, the person in the job turns out to be unsuitable for the promotion they want, etc etc.
      One thing you could do is ask the boss directly “What steps do I need to take to start project management? What skills, classes, or accomplishments do I need to have to move into that role? How can we start finding ways to make that happen?”

      2. N.J.*

        Just a bit of further clarification if the OP considers taking classes for the PMP. You can’t get this professional certification without 36 months worth of project management work experience in an eight year period, a bachelor’s degree and 4500 hours of documented project work. The typical classes are to provide the 35 contact hours in project management training also required to sit for the test. Without a bachelor’s degree, the work experience requirement goes up to 5 years and the project hours requirement goes up to 7500 hours. This isn’t to discourage anyone from pursuing the PMP certification, but I’m currently pursuing it and would recommend keeping it in mind as an end goal, but not the main goal, when breaking into project management work. Especially with the cost associated with many of the prep classes and the cost associated with the test itself and joining the PMI (professional project management body that offers the PMP certification).

        1. Wheezy Weasel*

          The Project Management Institute also has a mid-level certification called the CAPM, which doesn’t require the same level of experience. You can pass the exam with 23 hours of classroom exposure (a weeklong CAPM prep course). From what I’ve read, it’s a great way to signal your intent to move into solid PM work even if you’re not getting it right now.

          I’m in a similar situation: I’ve done PM work in the past but not currently eligible for the PMP (too much time has passed) and the CAPM plus a master’s degree with a PM focus are my plans to jump back into the field.

      3. Fortitude Jones*

        I don’t know this for sure, but I feel like anecdotally, it’s pretty rare that admins move into other positions *in the same office or job*.

        Yeah, I don’t know either, but from my experience, I’ve only moved up from admin or admin-like roles within the same company twice.

    2. Your Weird Uncle*

      Like you, I found myself reluctantly in the admin world and wanted to get out of it as fast as possible. One of the problems with admin is that pigeonholing is a very real thing, and once employers find someone who excels at admin they will resist moving you up! It is very frustrating.

      One thing that I did, which I don’t know if it will work for you, was to find an admin job with a supportive boss who would let me focus on different areas that I was interested in. In the four years at that job, I spent time working on various projects and finally found out a very real need in my department (sorting out the finances – we had an accounting team, but my department really needed someone to take a granular approach to our funds) and, although I didn’t move up there, I was able to promote myself into a financial position for my next job. It took a while, and a lot of dipping in and out of work roles I wasn’t so keen on, but I finally feel like I’m in the right place, professionally.

      Good luck with your career! These things sometimes take a while, but you’ll get there.

      1. Anon for this*

        Thanks. I appreciate the stories of people who have been through this. I think the root of me being so upset is that I thought I found a supportive boss who would let me expand and then for one reason or the other it ended up not working out. I’ll keep trying, and try to stay positive that it will eventually work out.

        1. N.J.*

          Maybe you could try next for a project assistant or project coordinator role? That’s how I got into project management out of grad school. Much of the work I did as a project coordinator was administrative in nature, but the job position can often include compnonrntd of project management and position you in the right organization to move up through the OM ranks.

          1. Anon for this*

            That is what I meant when I said apply to non-admin jobs based on what I have been given. My field has program/project coordinator positions. They seem to want some combination of admin/project experience; but it isn’t totally out of my depth.

    3. Spoonie*

      Your first paragraph almost sounds like I could have written it.

      You can try a combination of all of the things you mentioned here. Talk with your boss and mention that you expected to be doing XYZ since you took this job on that contingent and that hasn’t happened. See if an internal transfer is a possibility. Also start looking at jobs externally. You have the possibility to be choosy, so make a list of the things you want/need in a job and try to stick to it. Build your resume so that it highlights the skills in Project Management from your extra tasks. If you’ve taken classes or gotten a certification, put that on there. Write a cover letter so that it specifies all of those fabulous PM things you’ve done, not just that you’re a great admin — unless you want to remain an admin (nothing wrong with that, just get the sense that you want to something different). I know Allison has resources in the archives and about writing resumes, etc. Use that.

    4. LKW*

      Another option to consider – and it’s the path I took – was to find an Admin Job that has education benefits and take get a business admin or IT focused degree. It will keep you in a job you’re not terribly fond of for a bit but as long as the company and coworkers are ok, you can make it work. Plus if the admin work isn’t too stressful, it will give you time for your classes and homework.

      In my case I got a degree from a major university through their continuing ed program only paying 20%, while my company paid the other 80%. All of the classes were at night and almost all of my classmates had full time jobs so they understood the time constraints for group work. When I graduated, I stayed on at my job for a bit longer but eventually left and ended up in a semi-entry level role at a consulting firm. I was a few years behind my peers but it gave me real work experience they didn’t have.

    5. Spelliste*

      It sounds like looking outside would be best. Have you looked into Project Coordinator roles? They’re often entry level, and typically need competence and flexibility, but not much experience. Some can have admin aspects, for better or worse, but that may smooth the way for you. Also, you might consider looking into large orgs and/or places that have strong tech components (e.g. my company, a large financial firm with a necessarily huge operations and technology department). They’re likely to have PM development tracks and training opportunities.

      I went from an office admin to project coordinator (different companies), which was the first step in building a real career from what had been dead end, underpaid jobs. I’m now a program manager. Best of luck to you!

      1. Anon Anon*

        I recommend this as well. In my department we regularly hire people as coordinators and promote them to project manager positions. We never promote administrative assistants, primarily because the skills needed for each role tend to attract different kinds of applicants.

    6. Studio*

      I would do a couple of things.

      1 reach out to boss about specific project you overheard and ask to have a part in it.

      2 Start job hunting internal or external.

      future non pm jobs to consider that can more easily gateway to pm analysr, ts.

      Consider looking at a non profit hospital. They are dying to get costs down so it’s really easy to get several hats there.

    7. Surrogate Tongue Pop*

      A few more things to consider:
      1. Ask your boss if you can find a project management type mentor.
      2. Ask if you can shadow in on some project meetings to see how all the roles of a project team function together and observe the project manager.
      3. You can take online classes to get project management certificates, which may help you, resume-wise.
      4. The PMP is nice, but is losing a bit of value in the world of project management. Plus, you pay into it and then have to pay (or get your company to pay) to keep up with the PDU requirements. I am a “recovering project manager” who never got certified, but still got jobs based on experience. This is why I suggest 1-3 above.
      5. See if there are any project management related Meetup groups in your area. Great way to learn AND network. Even business analyst meetups might be of value to look into.
      6. Look into the world of Agile. Do you for sure want to be a Project Manager, or would you consider becoming a Scrum Master? Totally different roles, but there are a lot of companies in certain industries leaning toward or moving to agile to deliver value via projects. If so, check out becoming a CSM and finding Agile Meetups.

      1. Anon for this*

        What do you think about the project management certificates? I get 5K a year in tuition reimbursement, and the class I took was intro to project management. I could continue on to work on the certificate (I think it is 5 classes or something). The risk is my company reimburses after you get your grade, so if I got a new job, I would be out that amount of money.

        1. Surrogate Tongue Pop*

          I think it depends on where one is in their career. If you’re just starting out, or trying to make a significant career change, I think they can help get some footing. If you continue the classes, ask your manager if you can start putting your education to work by managing a small project, and then grow and learn from there! I’m personally a “learn by doing” person and get so much out of observing real life situations. I fell into project management many moons ago (wasn’t a business analyst first), and then fell into agile transformation, and then fell into agile coach (mind you, I never took formal certification classes for any of this, although I did take some company offered internal project management classes early on in my career). Good luck!

    8. Marisol*

      You mentioned taking classes–is the company paying for the classes? If not, could you get them to do that, or tosupport you in some way in your efforts to get training? Even if they are disingenuous about it and don’t really intend to promote you, more training might help you in your overall career path.

    9. Yetanotherjennifer*

      I’ve been in your position as well. My first job out of college was at a mom and pop company where I wore many hats and could choose my title and foolishly chose Administrative Assistant because back then the title was fairly new and everyone said it was a stepping stone title. I moved from that job to a genuine admin position in a tech company and was ready to advance after a year, but I found it difficult for all the same reasons. Eventually, through buyouts and reorgs and a manager that “got it” I was promoted to a project coordinator position; still entry level but no secretarial duties. Then I got laid-off and got web development and design training through a job retraining program and met a recruiter with a start-up dream and was able to get hands-on experience through him but it was very part-time so I kept looking. My next job was as a full-time web developer in ecommerce. I also got a job offer as a tech writer with the promise of being able to someday do web development but by that time I had waited long enough to do what I actually wanted to do, so I passed.

      Only you know if a talk with your boss would be productive, and you have to consider what happens if she says no. Keep your eye out for internal positions, and meanwhile start looking for an outside job that gives you project management experience if not the actual title. Or really, any title other than admin will help. Reframe your resume to focus on what non-admin work you are doing and have it just whisper the more secretarial duties. And I would think your cover letter is going to play a key role in framing your experience and goals. Can you get some hands-on experience through volunteer work? Any basic classes you can take? Not necessarily towards certification, just to give you the skills to get started. You’ve already got an admin job, so unless there’s more than the job that’s making you miserable, I’d hesitate to move into another one that ends up being the same dead-end.

  17. K.*

    I am so annoyed by a project right now – what should be a quick, easy thing to wrap up is taking longer than it should because of the program we’re using. Argh! Anyone else having any minor nit-picky annoyances that are driving them crazy?

    1. Grits McGee*

      The woman who sits next to me has been having sinus issues, but somehow her coughs and sneezes all sound like belching. It’s grossing me out, but of course the poor woman can’t help it so I can’t be annoyed, which is even more annoying.

      1. K.*

        The woman whose office is across the hall from mine is great, but she sneezes SO LOUDLY. Usually a couple of times a day (I think she’s allergic to dust) and it’s loud enough to startle you.

        1. Marisol*

          I have a guy here who does that. I’ve been dragging my feet about asking him to tone it down. It’s so loud, it’s like he’s yelling, and I think it’s partly deliberate to sound macho. I love him, but his sneezes literally make me angry.

          1. Loud Sneezer*

            I am a small female with a big sneeze. No, it is not deliberate. When I am around horses, I try to stifle it, but it hurts! Otherwise, I let it go. And, apparently, it is not without risks, as in, you can cause an ear infection or even rupture something. I apologize on behalf of all loud sneezers, but really that’s the way it is.

        2. blackcat*

          I am one of these people. My sneezes can wake the dead. In certain settings, I do my best to hold them in, but I have caused injury to myself in the past by doing so (mostly pulled muscles, nose bleeds, and ringing ears, but one *bruised rib.* My lungs hit my ribs so hard that I managed to bruise both a lung and a rib. I did not know such a thing was biologically possible until it happened to me.).

          It is a no-win. I am highly apologetic when I have to let a big one out. It is less frequent now than when I was young (in high school, I was That Girl With The Sneeze), so it’s maybe once a week. There is genuinely nothing I can do :(

    2. Rhys*

      I recently moved to a desk near the kitchen and almost every morning it smells like maple syrup at my desk. It’s not a problem really because it’s a pleasant smell, but it makes me want pancakes so bad.

      1. JustaTech*

        About 2 days a week my floor will randomly smell like toast around 2pm. No one has made toast, the lunch room doesn’t smell like toast, but the offices and labs will smell like toast.

        It’s been going on for years.

    4. Parenthetically*

      I teach a class of sixth graders, and their (totally developmentally-appropriate) constant need for reminders about behavior, supplies, organization, time management… is inexorably driving me batty.

    5. zora*

      I feel like I have a million nit-picky annoyances right now, but one is my coworker right behind me vocalizes every stressful moment or physical issue she has, so I feel like I’m always on edge because at any moment she’ll be freaking out about something, or have an outburst about her menstrual cramps. I’m an emotional sponge, so I absorb all of her stress and it makes me stressed. I am working hard at not letting it affect me, but it doesn’t always work. Gah, Inhale…… Exhale………

      1. Marisol*

        I hate vocalizers like that. I’ve got a tweaky nervous system from having ADHD (I notice everything, especially sounds) and sometimes I use earplugs. It’s so soothing to tune that stuff out.

        1. zora*

          She’s so close to me, I can’t really block the sound entirely. I do try to listen to soothing music most of the day, which can help me keep her stress out of my brain, but her speaking voice is really loud and she wants to talk about Ev. Er. Y. Thing.

    6. crankypants*

      lol! Yes!
      I have 300 pages to print out and the printer is going on strike.
      I can print 9 pages at a time, go over to the printer, retrieve them, check they all printed okay, print another batch of 9,
      Meanwhile, I’m still waiting for 1 page that will be printed on the back of eachof these pages.
      This is a project that was supposed to be out in the mail last Fri; I’ve been doing 10 hour days for the last two weeks getting this out…

      1. Parenthetically*

        Oh ye gods, this just brought back a wave of panic-stress-anxiety from when I was an overworked front-desk AA with no admin skills and all the responsibility for EVERY PRINT JOB AT THE COMPANY.

    8. Kat_Ma_Ras*

      Yes! Wrapping up a project, all I needed was to print to PDF. But program A can’t communicate appropriately with program B to accomplish the most basic task. Finally save it and page numbers are off, and a there’s a page somewhere in the middle with a single text line. Save it again, but the embedded links don’t work…. COME ON TECHNOLOGY — it’s 2017.

    9. Director of Things*

      We have a body odor guy. Not just, oh he’s nearby, and I wish he used deodorant. But a full-on, he left our section of the building before I walked in, and I started coughing/gagging from the smell when I entered a minute later. I have never encountered this level of BO before!
      Thankfully, he’s a temp, and his work is done here soon.

  18. KevinDennisNoPatricia*

    Hi!

    Long time lurker first time poster. A month ago an unpleasant, outright disrepectful and unprofessional co-worker has been promoted and is now my boss. We haven’t been told beforehand (despite having asked questions, since we sensed there was a team re-organisation happening) and my new boss hasn’t talked to us since. So he’s a jerk (as he’s always been) and now doesn’t talk to us AT ALL, despite sitting exactly one desk away from me. There hasn’t been an introductory meeting or something. That feels surrealistic.

    I expressed my surprise and fears to my former boss (now N2) and to HR, to no avail. They said they would keep an eye to my new boss behaviour but keep the organisation as it is. I feel like I’m in a vacuum + I’m not sure what to do. Am I a bad employee for being discouraged by such management? What can I do? Help!

    1. Rhys*

      I had a similar situation at a former job. Somebody was promoted from another section of the company to be head of my department despite having no knowledge of or expertise in our department’s work. He was also a hugely unprofessional person who played favorites with employees (awkwardly, I was one of his favorites so he treated me really well, but I was always wary of him). Eventually multiple managers in my department quit and cited this person in their exit interviews and he finally got fired when it was clear that he was in over his head and nobody wanted to work with him, but it took over a year.

      One thing you might try is feeling out your coworkers to see if they have similar concerns and then you can present things to this guy’s boss/HR. It might be more effective coming from multiple people.

      1. KevinDennisNoPatricia*

        The whole new team expressed their concerns, which is why it’s even more distressing…

        1. Rhys*

          Oh geez, that sucks. Is there any other possible escalation path? If not, maybe you and your coworkers can reach out to your new boss directly and ask for a group meeting just to… break the ice I guess?

          1. KevinDennisNoPatricia*

            My teammates don’t want to : they consider it’s our manager to make the first step. Huh, browsing the job offers section of Linkedin so hard!

    2. Marisol*

      I think anyone would feel discouraged by that. Since he’s a jerk, can you re-frame to be grateful that he’s not talking to you? I mean, do you really want to talk to someone who’s a jerk?

      1. KevinDennisNoPatricia*

        Yes I somehow was relieved at first to see he didn’t start to micro manage us, but I’m afraid he’ll sneak out of the blue and order me to do sth that’s totally opposite to our company’s process or whatever. He’s famous for doing this :/ I HAVE to find a way to keep working the way I do, but knowing he’s here, somewhere, stresses the heck out of me.

        1. Marisol*

          sounds like a fear of the unknown/waiting for the other shoe to drop kind of feeling. very sucky.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              To relieve fear of the unknown we have to build a plan.

              You could plan to transfer. You could plan to get a new job.
              You could plan to document everything you see.

              You will get a tiny bit of relief when you start to work on a plan. Even a half-baked plan will provide a little relief.

        2. Detective Amy Santiago*

          if he tries to ask you to do something against process, ask him to put it in writing

  19. Librarian in waiting*

    I have an interview the library I used to work at in two Mondays! For a librarian position! Hooray!

    Background: I worked for the public library for 7 years, starting as a page and working while getting my MLS and working my way up to a paraprofessional position as a reference assistant. We have a great library system in my town and a university near by so competition for librarian positions is fierce. Plus, nobody wants to leave so there are rarely positions open.

    A couple years ago I interviewed for a newly created librarian position and rocked my interview. I ended up not getting the job, which was a bummer but okay, but I really didn’t appreciate the way they told me. I was told that I had the best interview, the best program proposals and everyone in the interview team thought I would do great in the position but they gave it to someone else. The manager couldn’t give me any feedback other than start volunteering in the community.

    I left the public library for the university library shortly after that. Library administration was implementing questionable policies and while I was trying hard to be positive and give the new policies a chance it wasn’t working out for me (mostly I wasn’t able to do the job I was hired to do and there was no room for gaining new experience or skills or advancement.) At the same time, a paraprofessional position at the nearby university library opened up and it was directly related to my second master’s degree. I ended up getting that position and left the public library.

    I am not sure how to treat my leaving the public library in my interview with them. I am going to focus on how I wanted to gain new experience and use my other degree, but that I realized I really am more suited for a public library than an academic one. All of that is true even if it isn’t the whole story.

    One other thing is that I am Facebook friends with someone on the interview committee. Do I “limit” them until after the interview? Or would it be best to just stop posting to Facebook for awhile?

    Any other advice for interviewing with a past employer?

    1. dear liza dear liza*

      I think your answer as to why you are leaving is perfect. Job seekers can sometimes get a little too invested in that question, especially if there’s drama, but as a seasoned search committee member, I can assure you that all we’re really looking for is why you want *this* job. Too much backstory often just raises flags.

      I’ve been FB friends with job applicants before, and when I’ve been an applicant (library land is small). In both cases, I just say nothing at all about the search or interview, and continue to post cute baby animal pictures and library cakes as usual.

      As for your previous interview, which you rocked- I’m not sure why you wrote that you “didn’t appreciate” the way they told you. It’s very, very common for hiring folks to not give feedback at all. I’m sure it was frustrating that they couldn’t say why they chose you, but you have to let that go. Final decisions often are made on weird, small things. In one search, a dean argued for a candidate because both of them had gone to the same big university and spent the whole meeting talking about the football team.

      Good luck!

      1. Librarian in waiting*

        Obviously there is a lot of history with this manager. I appreciate that he took the time to meet with me in person to tell me I didn’t get the job-he didn’t have to do that at all. I didn’t appreciate that he was trying to manage my feelings by telling me I’m the best. What is more helpful instead of trying to only lift me up is saying “the other candidate had way more experience” which is both true and gives me an idea of what I need to work on. He just doesn’t like to be the barer of bad news which is understandable but also his job.

        Thanks for your feedback about my answer! I think your right that I am spending more time on that question that is warranted!

    2. Hoorah*

      Few hiring managers will give you detailed feedback about the reason for your rejection. It’s standard. They are not invested in coaching job applicants. With so many interviews they do on a regular basis it’s not possible to give everyone feedback.

      This week I rejected an applicant because she seemed like an annoying whiner – she complained about every employer, including some petty grudges from years ago. If I were to explain to her honestly why she was decline I would say “We dislike your personality and think you are too annoying to work with.” What’s the point in saying that when it will only cause offence?

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      One thing to remember when interviewing with the former employer is that they may not remember what you did when you were there, so be sure to treat the job history as though the people in the room don’t know it.

      I also think it is especially important to talk about your accomplishments with people who “know” you, because they probably don’t know. The biggest mistake I see people make in internal feeling interviews is that they fail to really brag on their skill set, often because they think folks already know what they do/did. However, folks don’t know, so talk yourself up, just like you would at any interview.

      1. Librarian in waiting*

        Yes! This is good to remember. I’ve never met the person leading the interviews so hopefully that will push me to keep talking about what I did while I worked at the library and not assume anything. Thanks!

  20. Detective Amy Santiago*

    I think one of my coworkers is having some performance issues and it’s made for a few awkward moments in meetings this week. There was something said about how “I know Jane is frustrated by Teapot Sales Calls” by a senior colleague. Boss wasn’t here at the time and I know there have been closed door meetings between Boss and Jane. It made me feel uncomfortable, but I haven’t really said anything to anyone about it and I don’t know if I should. I really don’t want to know what’s going on with Jane and I don’t want to make it a bigger deal.

    1. Not so Nervous Accountant*

      Sounds like someone needs to talk to Gina and put her on a PIP?

      (sorry corny joke)

    2. Dr. KMnO4*

      I wouldn’t say anything to anyone since it sounds like one of those situations that is usually preceded by the phrase, “You didn’t hear this from me but…”. It sounds like the performance issue is for Jane and Boss to deal with. It’s unfortunate that the senior colleague made those comments but I don’t see where you telling someone that the comments were made is going to help the situation in any way. At most you could ask the senior colleague to not share things like that with you in the future, though in my experience those conversations usually don’t go over very well.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Why would you have to consider saying anything to any one?

      Worst case scenario, someone says, “Where is Jane?”
      Your response can be, “I don’t know.” or “I think she is meeting with the boss.”
      Period, done.

      People ending up in the boss’ office for performance issues is part of most work places. Hopefully the person will respond well to the boss’ instruction. Hopefully the boss will do a good job explaining what is needed. It’s part of worklife. If you don’t want to make it a bigger deal then forget it or ignore it.

  21. Applications and References*

    How do you all handle reference requests on job applications? I am casually applying for jobs (I’m looking for something that is going to be a really excellent fit) and it seems that most applications require me to list my references. The references I plan to use for this job search I have also used in the past, but I haven’t reached out to anyone yet because I expect this job search to take a while and I don’t want to bother them now for a check that may not come for months. Should I just list them and let them know now? Or hope the prospective employers do not contact them before an interview? Should I just put down their names and no contact info? Or should I say something like “References available at interview” (though I do feel that this may make my application stand out in a bad way…)

    1. T3k*

      What I typically do is call my references every so often (maybe once every 6 months) just to check to make sure they’re still ok being references for me.

    2. Audiophile*

      If it’s part of an online application system, I usually attach my reference sheet if it has been specifically requested. Or I list them in the reference section of the application. Otherwise, I don’t worry about it very much.

      My references have agreed to be references previously and were reliable. I think as long as you have their permission, you don’t need to contact them every time. If I get a heads up from an employer that they want to reach out to references, I’ll usually send out a quick email or text to my references telling them to expect a call. I’ll cycle through references and make changes as I need to. Recently, I removed someone because they didn’t respond when contacted multiple times by an employer.

    3. DixieRiver*

      I’ve encountered the same thing on forms. I’ve handled it by listing the names of my references, but no phone number, figuring I can always say I don’t have those handy. I think it’s important to have some control over when your references are contacted, and I think holding back on the contact info provides that.

    4. Detective Amy Santiago*

      No one is going to call your references before you have an interview. It’s a huge waste of time.

      1. Anxa*

        False.

        This happens. Maybe they shouldn’t, but I have had references called before phone interviews (didn’t get an interview). I’ve also had interviews tentatively scheduled that depend on questionnaires being filled by references.

        I guess it’s not that typical, but I wouldn’t say no one.

    5. Lady By The Lake*

      Prior to beginning the job search you should reach out to your references, let them know that you are beginning to look for jobs (even if it is casual), let them know what you are looking for and ask if you can still use them as a reference. That serves two purposes — (1) it gives them a heads up, and (2) it is good networking. Take that opportunity to double check their contact information. I have always been a fan of “references available upon request,” but I am in a field and of a seniority where that is expected. I don’t know about other fields.

    7. BRR*

      I ask my references when I begin a job search if they’ll serve as a reference and what their preferred contact information is. Then if the employer gives me a heads up I email them to let them know a call is coming.

    8. 574Girl*

      I would say this depends on how many jobs you are applying too. For example, if it is truly once in a very long while (say once a year), then I do re-ask my refs if I can use them. However, if I am applying to several jobs, then I get permission and re-ask every six months or so. People’s circumstances change.

      Once I have the interview, I absolutely contact them and let me know I have an interview, what the job is and that I used them as a reference, which they already agreed too. Never blindside a reference if you can avoid it, though I’m sure you know that.

      You often have to include references on job applications, but it is super rare to have them called before an interview.

    9. Courageous cat*

      I will say I also have been finding this EXTREMELY annoying. I really don’t like giving out that kind of information before the company has even shown an iota of interest in me. Furthermore I truly do not see a need to ask for references at the application stage, other than to cause a lot of extra work for applicants who may not even get so much as a brief glance at their application.

  22. Giles*

    I fell into my field a bit by accident… in college, I majored in communications because I loved my classes/the subject matter, but I didn’t know what to do with it. I ended up in marketing, and have had two major marketing positions prior to my current job. I’ve been at this company for almost two years. Recently, I discovered the direction I want to take my life into, and it’s a completely different field – culinary arts. I found an evening program through a local community college that’s a half hour away from my workplace, and I’m excited to start classes in the fall.

    The catch is that classes start at 5, my office’s main hours are 8-5 (core is 9-4), and I would need to shift my schedule from 8-5 to 7-4 two days a week to make it work. My boss is open to discussing it, but is leaning toward rejecting my request to shift things by an hour… even though the shift wouldn’t go into effect until August. His reasoning is that he wants someone from the department available in both offices until 5 (my colleague in our headquarters is here from 8:30-5:30, but it’s not the same to him.) He told me he’d discuss it with me further during my quarterly eval (which should’ve been today), however.. he’s now out today. He emailed to say he would be available by phone, so I asked if we could chat about it so I would know his stance.

    His reply? “What’s the urgency? I thought this wouldn’t go into effect until the fall. I want to talk less about my support or the change and more about how you delivered the news.” He’s indicated he’s unhappy that I told him AFTER I enrolled, and not before. In the end, I told him the impact on my future plans leaves me to want to talk about it today – and he just came back and said we’d do it Monday. Argh.

    I need advice on how to approach this discussion, since my first instinct is anger. I feel he’s not very supportive of me, despite saying his goal is to support everyone on his team. Whenever I ask for PTO, for example, he’s always very begrudging about giving it. Now this. I know going into the meeting angry won’t be productive, but I also feel that he should know that he’s not coming off supportive, even if he inevitably approves something. Advice on navigating this?

    1. Andy*

      so…you signed up for classes already and now your schedule has to change? but you told your boss after the fact?
      I just want to clarify: you already signed up for the classes, right? the convo you want to have with Ms. Boss is after the fact?
      I think this might be separate than her granting pto only begrudgingly. that sucks, and pto is part of your benefits. But if you already signed up for classes and you’re approaching her after the fact like, “this is happening, btw” I can’t really blame her for being chuffed about it.
      You might want to adopt a conciliatory tone. I don’t know if you value your job, but if you do it might be prudent to acknowledge to her that you’ve put her in a spot by making arrangements before speaking with her about something that would alter your schedule every week.

      1. Biff*

        I disagree. She was going back to school regardless, and now she’s giving him a heads up that this is happening and she’d like to make the transition as gracefully as possible. As a boss, I’d be chuffed that I was getting this much notice for a hard-to-fill role.

      2. Giles*

        Yes, I told my boss after the fact. I understand him being a bit frustrated about that, but I was going into it with the perspective of “it’s one hour, two days a week, I’ll be in early to compensate, we get more requests at 7 AM than 4 PM, and you’ll have more coverage this way because someone from our team will be here from 7 to 5:30 PM.” I wrote all of this and other benefits out in an email after our meeting, to try to improve the situation.

        I also told him after the fact because school is important to me, I tried everything I could to minimize interruption in the department, and there’s a lot of precedent in it both at my company and within my department. Plus, personally, I’m also not a huge fan of the “ask for permission regarding my life decisions when I’m doing everything I can to compromise to begin with.”

        1. LawCat*

          You aren’t asking for permission regarding your life decisions. You are asking for permission to adjust your work schedule. Those are not the same thing.

          2. Fortitude Jones*

            And not only that, you’re going back to school for something totally unrelated to your current job and you want your current manager to rearrange your work schedule to accommodate that. Yeah…I think you erred here a bit.

            1. Giles*

              … It’s by a single hour, which I’ll be doing in the morning instead. For two days a week. Sorry, but your tone is making it seem like I’m asking to leave at 2pm or to have three hours away in the middle of the day and it’s nothing that drastic.

        2. Blueismyfavorite*

          I think telling him after the fact was a real miscalculation. You say you didn’t talk to him beforehand because school is important to you. But your schooling for a completely unrelated field is not important to HIM. Staffing the job is. You’ve created a problem for him that now he has to fix. You’re probably going to need to apologize, tell him you realize you got ahead of yourself, and ask if there’s any way you can work around your school schedule but understand completely if it’s not possible right now.

          2. TootsNYC*

            I think apologize.

            And then say that you -do- need to know now if this schedule change is not something he can accommodate, so you can decide what to do. (Don’t tell him this, but your choices will obviously include withdrawing from school, picking different classes, or getting a different job. Hopefully he’ll be smart enough to realize that all of these are on the table.)

            Then maybe suggest that while you need to know well before fall, you understand that it seems non-urgent to him.

            But suggest that you use this very advance status to try it out.

            First start tracking (work backward if you can) when work arrives for you, and how often you are actually needed late. Then point out any trends (spot any potential drawbacks yourself; don’t let him be the one to point them out)–like if the person who always wants to reach you is the same most days, maybe working with that person proactively, or just coaching them through different expectations, will make it work.

            And then suggest that you try it for two weeks, now, when it’s not urgent FOR YOU, and when it still gives him time to change his mind if it ends up being really unworkable for him, yet you’ll still have time to react to that.

    2. LawCat*

      Honestly, I’m kind of with your boss on the “why the urgency” because it’s not urgent, and also with him being unhappy with you telling him after the fact on enrollment (that seems similar to booking a vacation and then asking for time off because you booked the vacation). It puts your boss in a frustrating spot. The answer might be no, the fall is not a good time to adjust schedules so let’s look at schedules in the spring. The answer might be no, we need someone here until 5:00. Being supportive doesn’t mean he has to accommodate your unilateral decision to enroll in classes that impact your work schedule if there is a business need for someone to be available until 5:00. These are things to keep in mind when you approach your boss.

      So on how to approach, be humble and open to listening to his perspective. “Boss, I’ve been thinking about it and I understand that I should have approached you much earlier about adjusting my schedule when I knew I would need that in order to take the class I enrolled in. I just got really excited about the class and that excitement clouded my perspective a bit. Going forward, I will definitely check with you sooner as I definitely am not trying to put you or the company in a tough spot. I’m hopeful we might still be able to work something out for fall. Can you help me understand the concerns with adjusting my schedule this fall?”

      And hear him out and see if you can address those concerns. There might be a solution he’s amenable to. There might not be. It should also help you understand how rigid your job is going to be with your work hours since it may preclude returning to school.

      Ultimately, if this job is going to interfere with your educational goals, this may not be the job for you. And that’s okay too. It happens all the time that employee and employer needs change. You might look for a job with more flexible hours or consider going to school full-time.

      1. Giles*

        Well, it’s urgent because it’s a direct impact on my life decisions. I mean, if he says no, then I need to take steps accordingly – and if he says yes, I know I can move forward with my classes. It’s partly also just a morale thing; it’s good to know what he wants to do about this so I won’t stew on it all weekend. I’ve already been waiting all week, you know? But ultimately it’s just about knowing what my future is going to look like.

        I understand him being frustrated. I’m frustrated because I feel like I’ve done everything I can to make both class and my position work together – including writing him a list of ten benefits behind doing both (business benefits, not personal, like him having more coverage since someone will be here from 7:00-5:30, basically, and how almost all our requests come in the morning instead of the afternoon.)

        I do recognize I’ll have more success if I approach this from a conciliatory tone, so I really thank you for the sample script. I’ll try to adopt it when I meet with him.

        I will add that the company, including HR, is behind my schedule change from a firm culture prospective – it’s just him that’s not okay with it. (Also – it’s a 2 year part time program, so my goal really is to keep my job and do both.)

        1. LawCat*

          I think you need to try and conceptually separate your life decisions from your work schedule.

          You are free to make all the life decisions you want that impact your work schedule. If a life decision is urgent, definitely make it. That doesn’t mean it is urgent for anyone else including your employer. Consequences of those decisions can impact your work including whether a job is going to work out. If your boss turns you down, whether now or if it had been earlier, you were always free to make your own decisions about what should happen next in your life. Your boss saying he can’t accommodate your work schedule is not your boss saying you can’t take the classes; your boss has no standing to tell you that. However, at that point, you have to decide what is more important.

          If the culture is one of more flexibility, that can be part of the conversation with your boss. “Boss, my understanding is that the firm culture offers flexibility. Maybe I don’t understand the scope of that flexibility. Could you give me some insight into that?”

          1. Giles*

            This is a good point, thank you!

            My company’s culture is very flexible within the 9-4 core hour framework, thus my coworker’s hours of 8:30-5:30. Others in the company take classes, get in a little later or earlier and leave later or earlier for childcare, etc.

        2. Taylor Swift*

          I totally get the urge to have everything in place right now because this is important stuff. It is important stuff. I know I would be anxious all weekend so I feel for you. But the reality is, that figuring it out next week or even the week after or the week after that will probably work out just fine.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              I know this is hard but try, try to find ways to calm down.
              One thing you might consider is that the boss did not give you an immediate answer because he wants to think about it first. It could be that HE is using the weekend to calm down.
              You would be shooting yourself in the foot to go in Monday all upset IF he has managed to calm down and find a logical solution.

              Another calming technique you can use is pretend you are him and he is YOU. Now you have to find a way to help this employee (formerly known as YOU) to meet a major goal of his. So think as Boss You, and what solutions do you see? Often times bosses can soften if we offer them ideas for solving the problem.

        3. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

          I think you also need to understand your boss’ position. You are not taking classes to improve your work or your skills to benefit the company. You are taking classes to quit your current job and go to a new industry, and you expect your boss to change business to accommodate that. It’s a big request. You have basically given your boss notice that upon graduation from this night class, you are quitting, and by the way, you need to change your schedule to accommodate that. And while this class is important for you because it gives you the chance to enter the field you love, you currently have a job and your boss has to have the best interest of the company in mind as well.

          If you can view the situation from that angle, I think you will understand why your boss was disgruntled about how this was handled and see how LawCat’s script really helps minimize this.

          1. Giles*

            I don’t have the intention of just up and quitting after graduation – culinary doesn’t work like that. I need two years of experience to get anything, so more than likely, I’ll just set up a little online business and sell cakes and stuff to friends in my spare time for a very long time – years after. I have told him explicitly I am not quitting and won’t be quitting.

            The rest is true, though, and I do see how that could ruffle some feathers.

    3. Biff*

      Your boss is being an ass. You’ve basically told him that you ARE going back to school, and you’d like to keep your job while you do that. You’ve offered to work with him on this. And he’s acting like you should have gotten permission from him to run your own life.

      I think you need to make it clear to him that you are telling him about this now, as a FAVOR to him, as you’d really like to go to school and help his business at the same time. However, you can point out that if it’s going to be a major concern, you can start writing documentation and training material for your role so that he can have the easiest time possible filling the slot when you go.

      1. Giles*

        I’m on board with a lot of this, in terms of how I’m feeling, but I’m not super behind the idea of saying “well, I’ll help you train because I quit.” I mean, I’m starting to consider whether this is the right job for me, but the original plan was to do school and be here full time.

      2. Rusty Shackelford*

        Your boss is being an ass. You’ve basically told him that you ARE going back to school, and you’d like to keep your job while you do that. You’ve offered to work with him on this. And he’s acting like you should have gotten permission from him to run your own life.

        Actually, no. What Giles actually told the boss was “I AM changing my schedule, because I’ve already done something that creates a conflict with it.”

        1. Giles*

          Somewhat. I do realize that was a poor call on my point.

          That said, at the time I told him I was not enrolled in fall classes, just the program itself. And in any case, if I have to withdraw from the program, I can. He’s aware of this.

    4. TCO*

      As someone with a strong sense of justice, it’s also hard for me to resist the “he should know that he’s not managing well” impulse. I feel you. But you really need to let go of that for right now. Stay focused on the goal–getting approval for your schedule change. Anything larger-picture about other PTO use, supportiveness, now dumb this all is, needs to wait for another time or be dropped completely. You may feel like addressing these bigger issues will help your boss see the light about your current request, but that doesn’t sound too likely given how you’ve described your boss here. So stay focused on your immediate goal, stay focused on how you can mitigate your boss’s concerns about impacts to the business, and let go of the rest for now. You might look into the “Crucial Conversations” approach. Good luck!

    5. Lemon*

      First, I think you need to understand that when a manager/supervisor says they want to support you, it generally means they want to support you in your role. That means things like making sure you have all the resources and information you need to do your job really well, helping you find professional development opportunities that support growth in your field, and providing specific feedback. Supporting you does not mean happily signing off on PTO or approving a schedule change so that you can take classes to move into a completely different career. So, hopefully that helps you re-frame his behavior away from “not supportive”.

      A potential approach could be to try to get a better understanding of why he is being so rigid on this. Not in a “BUT WHYYY?” type of way, but more like, “Can you help me understand why there needs to be someone in the office until 5 everyday?” And from there you can try to work through why that person needs to be you, and if there are any solutions that make both you and your supervisor happy (like someone else stepping in to cover until 5 for two days a week).

      Ultimately, though, if he is not going to budge on this and going to culinary classes is important to you, then you may have to think about finding a more flexible job.

      2. TootsNYC*

        Your boss probably feels a little “blind” in terms of how well this would work out for the business.

        And he probably doesn’t want to say “yes” now and have you pay for specific classes, etc., and then have to say “sorry, it doesn’t work out for the business” after that point.

        So don’t push him for a solid answer now–maybe suggest that you both try out the new schedule for a couple of weeks to see how it works. Then he still has time to say no without screwing you over (he probably really doesn’t want to screw you over by changing his mind after you’re committed with the schedule).

        And any documentation you can pull together (either in advance, or during the trial run) might help him realize that it’s not that big a deal for two calls to come in at 4:45, if one of them gets answered before 8:30 the next day, for example.

    6. PollyQ*

      I’m kind of on your boss’s side here. By signing up for the class before you got permission to change your work hours, you’ve put him in a tough position. I would back way off on your urgency to get his final ruling, and apologize for not asking him before you signed up.

    7. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I’m guessing you need to confirm that you’ll be able to work the altered schedule so you can enroll for classes. I would explain that to the boss.

      However, if you enrolled and expected this accommodation without asking if it would be okay and you’re acknowledging that it’s something completely different from your current job which means you will ultimately be leaving once you finish your schooling, you shouldn’t be terribly surprised that your boss isn’t being super supportive.

      1. Giles*

        I can drop the classes. I enrolled, but they’re in the fall, and it’s not set in stone. There’s a good six months where I can back out. I don’t want to, but I can.

        I told him explicitly that my intent is not to leave after school. I want to train in this field so I can do more in it, yes, but I can do that kind of stuff on the side – custom orders for cakes, for instance.

      2. TootsNYC*

        Of course, you can also get a different job if it turns out you need to–but you’d want to know that now too.

        You can always just let him think you aren’t taking the classes, look for a job that will accommodate, and quit either when you get the job or when classes start. (depending what you’re willing to risk)

  23. no name guy*

    I posted last week about being an everyday recreational weed user in a state where it is completely illegal, and having to choose between quitting, or failing a drug test and getting fired from my job.

    I took the advice from some people and told my boss I objected to the test on privacy grounds. She (who is extremely anti-weed) asked if I was quitting and I said yes. She called someone (a few minutes later security came) and told me if anyone ever contacted the company or anyone here about my employment here they would be told I refused to take a test for illegal drugs and quit before they could fire me. No references would be given. Security walked me to my desk to get my things and walked me out. My boss said she lost all respect for me.

    I talked to a lawyer because a friend told me I couldn’t get unemployment or would have a hard time if the company contested and the lawyer told me the company did not break any laws and I could try for unemployment but probably wouldn’t get it. He also said it was legal for them to tell anyone what my boss said and to not give me a reference from anyone in the company.

    My friend who works there also got sent. He doesn’t use drugs and ge passed. They took hair and urine. No blood like I thought, he said they told him they only do that if the person has no hair, they tried for blood or saliva in lieu of hair. He said a woman there (not from my work) was being kicked out when he was doing his paperwork because she got caught trying to bring in a urine sample into the testing area. He also told me an email went out that I quit instead of doing the test, along with a reminder of the zero tolerance policy for illegal drug use.

    Thanks to everyone for the support. I’m job hunting now and hoping to not be out of work long. This won’t make me stop using weed though, not everyone is like my boss and the company. Thanks.

    1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Holy overreaction, Batman! Your boss sounds like she took it really personally — “lost all respect’ for you, really?

      Good luck on your job hunt, dude. Fingers crossed you get a boss who isn’t so hardline about this stuff.

    2. Allypopx*

      “Refused to take a test” is still better than “failed a drug test” all things being equal. I’m sorry your company was so stringent about this. You might think about asking to see employee handbooks before accepting your next offer, to see if they have similar drug testing policies or even just overly rigid policies otherwise. Good luck on your search!

    3. AndersonDarling*

      I was thinking about your post from last week. Sorry it all blew up. I know a lot of people who work at places with random drug testing and they are hoping they never get selected, or they are planning on cheating.
      At least it is all over now. I wish you the best in your job search, and I have to give you integrity points for quitting instead of cheating!

    4. MegaMoose, Esq*

      Oof, that’s rough. Good luck with your search and I hope you find something soon. I’m not surprised at what the attorney you talked to said about unemployment, although you can always apply for benefits anyhow and see what happens. If you do, though, know that in all or most states the unemployment agency can retroactively revoke benefits if they decide you weren’t eligible in the first place, and then you have to repay anything you’ve received.

      1. Allypopx*

        I think that might be field and region dependent. I’ve never come across it, and know many people who never have as well.

          1. Allypopx*

            Hm, specifically lower-level jobs? That’s interesting to me. In the northeast I really don’t hear about it often (and marijuana is legal in Massachusetts now so I don’t expect I’ll hear about it going forward). People I hire never ask me about it. I’ve never personally had to be tested. I have friends who live in the south who have had to do pre-employment drug testing, but not so much in the northeast or midwest.

                1. Detective Amy Santiago*

                  For industrial jobs, it’s often a safety risk because you are operating heavy machinery or doing very physical work and if your reaction times are slowed, it can cause injuries.

              2. Rat in the Sugar*

                I know a lot of retail places that do, but no restaurant I ever worked at tested anyone or they wouldn’t be able to hire any cooks.

                1. Andy*

                  samesies in law offices. sorry to any stone cold sober attorneys out there, but my experience has been ….opposite

                2. Fortitude Jones*

                  @Andy I worked at a law firm for nearly three years, and they absolutely drug tested us before we could start working there. They didn’t bother after you started though (I suspect a lot of people would have been fired).

            2. Parenthetically*

              I’m originally from Colorado and there are still a ton of jobs that require testing for pot. The fact that it’s legal to use doesn’t mean employers have to be ok with you using it. It’s apparently been an issue for certain employers in my hometown — they’ll post a job opening and get 40 applicants, zero of whom pass the drug test.

            3. General Ginger*

              I’m in the northeast and most everyone I know in a professional job has had to be drug-tested prior to employment at the very least, and a couple of folks’ jobs do random testing.

            4. Elizabeth West*

              Well, I’m in the Midwest, in southern Missouri. I doubt executives at Exjob had to pee in a cup, but I sure did. And I was a departmental admin. But yeah, this has been a thing at every job I’ve ever had. Food service, retail, even office jobs. Because I might get high and answer the phone weird? :P

          2. Not So NewReader*

            NE US, here. Not seeing a lot of drug testing here. I do see randoms for people once they are employed. I think that cost has something to do with it. A lot of employers here cannot afford the testing. Eh, they can’t even afford the employees….

        2. Detective Amy Santiago*

          I don’t think I’ve ever had a professional job that didn’t require it. Even most of my high school/college jobs required them.

        3. cataloger*

          I’ve never come across it. My employer (a university) has a “drug free policy” but it’s all about not using (or making or selling) drugs while on campus, or on campus business. They only do pre-employment drug screening if you work in healthcare.

          1. K.*

            I’ve only come across it once and I’ve been working since I was 15. I was tested for a job as part of the hiring process in 2012. It wasn’t a low-level job but it was in the pharma industry. I worked there for three years and was only tested during hiring.

        4. NJ Anon*

          Yes, I habe been working for 30 years, have had many jobs and have NEVER had to take a drug test.

      2. Surrogate Tongue Pop*

        I know several companies in my major city and area that don’t require it. Headquarters, even. I do think it’s industry/region and possibly even state dependent. It’s why my friend works where she works. She also loves her job.

      3. Sunflower*

        I’ve only seen it required for lower level jobs although I’m sure some professional jobs include it.

        I’d go so far as to say in high stress jobs, the company know people are doing stuff but they don’t want to officially know. As long as you’re billing your hours and making clients happy, they really don’t care what you do.

      4. Insert Name Here*

        ?
        I’m in my mid-30s, have been working since age 15 (in both hourly and professional positions) and have never once been asked to take a drug test.

      5. Anna Pigeon*

        New England, worked in a variety of jobs over 25 years, for profit, not for profit, big, small – none did any drug testing unless required by federal law for safety reasons. I have never taken a drug test, and would seriously consider dying on that hill, particularly if it required me to pee while someone else watched. Big old Nope.

      6. Lablizard*

        This is probably field, job, and location specific. I have never worked anywhere that tested anyone and I have had jobs in 3 US states in almost 20 years

      1. Natalie*

        It sounds like this was a bit abnormal, though, where employees were sent for random drug tests during their employment. Except in a few industries, that’s not common in my experience.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          That does depend on the job but everywhere here will test before hiring, at least for lower-level positions. Because us admins are just rampant addicts, ya know.

          1. Natalie*

            Right, but did they test you randomly during employment? That’s the part I think it unusual.

            1. Detective Amy Santiago*

              That depends a lot on the industry/type of job. It sounds like in this situation, it was odd given the nature of work that No Name Guy was doing, but random drug tests are common in a number of positions.

            2. Liane*

              I have worked a number of places that tested when you got or accepted an offer (pending a clean test). They also had policies that they could test “for cause” or randomly. I never heard of anyone being sent for a random test; only if someone was involved in a workplace accident.

            3. Elizabeth West*

              No, you don’t get tested during employment. Although since I worked in manufacturing at OldExjob, if I had been out on the shop floor and been involved in an accident, they might have required a test. I can’t argue with that.

            4. Not So NewReader*

              Driving jobs. NPOs with government funding. Those types of things are where I am seeing the randoms. They are usually very clear that you can be tested at any time. Then years go by, a false sense of security creeps in and whammo, “Guess what you are doing today!!”

              1. NJ Anon*

                My husband drove for Big Brown for 20 years. Was never drug tested ever. I have worked for 2 nonprofits with federal and state funding, no drug testing ever. The jobs are out there.

    8. Rat in the Sugar*

      Aw, geez. Sorry this is happening to you, your boss sucks. All you can do is stick to the privacy line and tell people you object to the test itself, I think. This still would have happened to someone who was totally clean and an actual conscientious objector (if that term applies here).

      Good luck on your job search.

    9. Lillian Styx*

      Sorry to hear. This kind of drug testing is just abhorrent on all levels. I can’t fathom how it’s at all cost effective for companies to do this. Does it really save money and resources to weed out (pun!) the drug users in this way rather than dealing with actual employee behavior/performance as it becomes problematic???

      Y’all. I don’t even smoke weed but I will die on this hill.

      1. LisaLee*

        Agreed. Honestly, I would also have a privacy issue with this even though I (currently) don’t use weed. Often these tests require you to disclose prescriptions that might mess up the results and other things that are 100% none of anyone else’s business.

      2. Sunflower*

        This is my confusion. Is this really the best use of company time/funds? Is there a chance there’s actually just ONE person they want to drug test but they are uninformed and think it’s illegal to only test one person?

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I just shake my head. I have seen more people stoned on their own legal scripts than I have ever seen stoned on weed at work.

    10. zora*

      Ugh, that boss is a jerk, I’m sorry you dealt with this.

      But, you should be fine for future references, this will sound much better than “He failed a drug test.” You should address in any interview: “I objected to taking a drug test on privacy grounds, and that required me to resign the position.” then, if they do call this company as a reference, they will be hearing that you refused to take the test, but you will have already framed the story yourself. That way you’ll be in a good position with any employer that doesn’t do such invasive drug testing, which is where you would want to work anyway!

      I am sure you will find something much better and wish you luck!!

      1. blackcat*

        It’s also possible to add a bit to make it clear that this was not just a pee in a cup thing. Maybe something like “I objected to taking a drug test on privacy grounds, and that required me to resign the position. The test was more involved than most, and I was not comfortable with hair and/or blood collection.”

    11. General Ginger*

      I’m sorry your boss took this so personally, and I wish you much luck in your job search!

    12. Rebecca*

      But yet someone can go home, drink a 12 pack of beer every night, and that’s OK, but if someone smokes pot one time, they can get fired. I have never understood that logic.

    13. Not So NewReader*

      Sometimes we play the best card in our hand and still come up empty.
      You did the best you could to salvage the situation.

      I hope you find a new job quickly.

  25. Rosie*

    I have a question about health insurance offered through your employer. I work at a small not-for-profit arts organization in NYC. Our health insurance is covered 100% by my employer. This means that nothing is allocated from my paycheck each pay period to cover the cost of my insurance. I just have a deductible and co-pays for when I visit my doctors.

    However, my organization does not offer to cover its employee’s dependents. There is no family plan put in place. I’m pregnant and to put my baby on my insurance, it will cost me upwards of $700 a month. To put my husband and baby on my insurance, it will cost me upwards of $1,800 a month. My husband is freelance, so has purchased his insurance through the marketplace. We’re hesitant to put our infant on his insurance because we just don’t know if it will be available to us in the near future. We also make too much income to qualify for Medicaid or any other health insurance programs for kids.

    Have any of you worked for or heard of organizations or companies that do not offer their employees a family plan? If so, what have you done in that situation? I have brought this up with my employer and they are looking into it (thankfully), but I’m not holding my breath. Paying for insurance for my family at such a high rate is unsustainable and I might have to look for a new job.

    Also – about 20 years ago – my organization DID have a family plan. There are two employees who were here at the time and were “grandfathered” in to that plan. Are they allowed to do that for those employees only and then not offer it to anyone else?

    1. Atlantic Toast Conference*

      In my experience, companies often allow you to add dependents to your company-sponsored health insurance, but it’s NOT common for companies to -subsidize- dependents’ health insurance. I’m not sure I’m reading your situation correctly, but it sounds like you’d be able to add family members to your plan, but you’d pay the full freight of their premiums. Is that correct? If so, that sounds about par for the course.

      Also, as an FYI, I’m fairly certain that if you put your baby on your husband’s plan, and your husband lost his coverage in the future, that would be a qualifying life event. You’d get a special enrollment period to add your husband/baby to your insurance (assuming that’s possible) if that happened.

      1. Lillian Styx*

        Chiming in to agree with the above. My org subsidizes employee insurance but not spouses or dependents.

        1. Rosie*

          Thanks for answering! So your companies don’t offer a family plan as part of your health insurance? We had that option at my last job. I didn’t have dependents at the time, so I don’t remember how much it was. But it wasn’t as expensive as this is!

          1. Lillian Styx*

            It’s on offer, but as I said the company doesn’t pay for it. So, right now with just me on the plan I pay about $25 out of each check while my company pays about $200. If I added my husband, the company would still pay $200 but my portion would go up by another $180 each check.

          2. Atlantic Toast Conference*

            Agree with TCO below – I’ve worked for companies that offered “family plans” in the sense of, adding one person to your insurance costs $X, and adding 2 or more costs $Y. But I’ve always, always been on the hook for the entire difference between my individual subsidy and the cost of adding more individuals.

      2. TCO*

        Agreed–this has been my experience at several jobs, including small nonprofits. My individual coverage was high-quality and nicely subsidized (though I always paid part of the monthly premium) but family coverage was really expensive. You might find better elsewhere, but it’s not a guarantee (especially since your individual coverage is free right now and might cost you elsewhere).

    2. CAA*

      This is becoming more common. The company subsidizes the employee’s insurance but not the dependents. My last company switched to this a couple of years ago. Previously they subsidized the employee at 75% and the family at 50%, but they changed to 50% and 0%. I kept my husband and daughter on our plan and just paid the extra money, but it was a big increase in costs.

      For the grandfathered employees — employers are not required to offer the same benefits to everyone as long as they are not discriminating against a protected class. It sounds like the basis of the discrimination in this case is longevity of service, so yes, that’s allowed. Also, it doesn’t sound like they’re really on a different health plan. They get the same coverage you get and the premiums are the same, the employer just pays a larger percentage of their premium.

    3. Natalie*

      Yes, it is quite common these days for companies to either not subsidize dependents or subsidize them at a lower rate than employees.

      I’m not an expert on ERISA, but I believe the grandfathered employees would be allowed. The primary concern with ERISA is that employees aren’t charged differently based on individual health factors, which obviously isn’t at play here.

      And yes, as mentioned, if your husband loses his insurance that is a qualifying event which will allow your husband and child to enroll in your insurance outside of open enrollment period. So if your husband’s coverage is cheaper, go with that.

    4. OwnedByTheCat*

      My employer – a medium-sized private school does this. My insurance is 100% covered but nothing else is. Right now my husband has his own coverage through his job. Also pregnant and no idea what we’ll do when baby comes!

    5. Ann Cognito*

      In my experience, most employers don’t pay anything towards dependent coverage at all.

      At one of two non-profits I worked at, they didn’t cover anything towards the cost of dependents, just 100% for the employee. The other covered 100% employee, plus a percentage of the cost for dependents. Specifically they gave a set dollar amount towards dependent costs, meaning the exact percentage covered depended on what specific plan the employee signed-up for, so the higher the premium, the lower the percentage covered, but it was about 55% of the cost for employees who chose the PPO (most expensive option).

      I don’t know specifically about the grandfathered employees. Plans can be different among employees based on a non-discriminatory classification, e.g. part-time or full-time employees, employees working in different geographic locations, and employees with different dates of hire or lengths of service, but that’s just generally and it’s impossible to say without knowing exactly how your plan is set-up.

    6. Isben Takes Tea*

      My experience is the opposite of the others–I’m shocked there are no family plans available. (But then my and my circle’s experiences have all been with larger companies.)

      But yes, they are allowed to grandfather some employees in, or even offer unequal benefits, as they are part of the “compensation package” (unless they are discriminating for/against a protected class, and “families” aren’t).

      1. Natalie*

        There are some regulations beyond just protected classes, namely health factors. Some of these are achieved through the tax code rather than a direct law against it.

        As a general rule, if a company is going to offer unequal benefits they should be categorizing people by bona fide difference in their job – full vs part time, exempt vs non-exempt, different work locations, etc.

      2. Sandy Gnome*

        My experience is similar to Isben Takes Tea. My employers (and those of friends/family/colleagues) have all contributed at least 50% of the monthly premium for family coverage.

        It may be helpful to know that if you have a section 125 health plan, involuntary loss of coverage (such as the marketplace dropping your husband and child) is considered a qualifying life event to add them to your coverage through work. It’s worth having a conversation with your employer to confirm how your plan is set up.

        1. blackcat*

          I am still shocked that my husband’s employer covers 90+% of the costs to add me. It was like $40/month. He hates lots of things about his job, but the good health insurance for practically no money is a big reason to stay.

    7. Tmarie*

      At my current place of employment it is about $450/month for a dependent and $550/month for a spouse. I’m not sure how much for family coverage. One thing to note is if you purchase your insurance through your workplace it generally tax-free. It reduces the amount you pay in Social Security and Federal taxes, whereas when you buy through the marketplace it doesn’t reduce your tax burden if you can’t itemize deductions.

      It’s expensive but I decided to put my bi-polar adult son on my insurance because it’s so much better than what I could get on the open marketplace. Also, not knowing if the individual insurance market is going to stay in existence was a huge factor in signing my son up for my work’s insurance.

      Maybe by the time he’s 26 I’ll have him on Medicaid. But with the option of workplace insurance, I have time to research that.

    8. committee member*

      I think this is pretty field and location specific. Here in my state (Michigan) and field (local government), I have had several jobs where employee, spouse, and children were all 80% paid for by the employer with me chipping the remaining 20%. If you want to do the math, currently I pay about $300 to cover myself, my spouse, and our 2 small children.

      I did interview for the same job(s) in Illinois and I was told that I would be paying 100% of the cost to insure my spouse and our children if I took those jobs. Although they at least offered the opportunity to do so, I took myself out of the running for those positions. I just simply can’t afford to do that if I can find a job that pays the same amount of money but covers the rest of my family. It’s a difference of $1,000 per month!

    9. Observer*

      1. There is no reason not to go through the marketplace. That will cover your husband for the next year.

      2. They can definitely refuse to put anyone new on any plan, as long as it’s across the board. And, it’s quite uncommon for employers to subsidize the family portion of the plan, in any case. The numbers you are hearing are quite common.

    10. teapot project manager*

      I have a couple oF comments:
      If you put your infant on your spouse’s plan and then you later get a different job, that should be an event that will then let you change your infant’s coverage to the one on new job.

      Great your employer is checking but I think they are subject to rules and can’t change the plan provisions midterm

      From the other side, my spouse owns a smal, business, less than 15 emplyees and he also pays 100% of employee premium but none of their dependents. For most of his employee demographic they don’t have depependents they want on our plan. If he was to pay a portion of depependents, he’d have to pay less for employee’s portion to afford it. Quite frankly they are slow in winter due to weather and this year is eorse than normal. Business hasn’t picked up yet like it usually does in March. We are close to the limit of the line of credit and he hasn’t taken money out of business since December. He needs his employees so trying to give them hours and paying them pto. He can’t afford to oay $1000 s more a month to pay for dependents without paying less for employees’ portion

      For comparison on you paying $700, I work for a large company, over 15.000 employees. To cover our family, between premiums and HSA contributions, I pay about 550/month plus have to pay additional costs when not enough to pay out of HSA. If I went with the PPO, I would pay over 600/month in premium plus copays

      Good luck. Hopefully you’ll figure something that will work for your family

      1. TootsNYC*

        I find it very unusual to find a company that pays 100% of the premium. That hasn’t happened at any of the companies I’ve worked for, ever.

        Oh, and I pay more per month to have my family members on our plan, even with some employer subsidy. I don’t know the amount to be honest.

    11. TootsNYC*

      I have worked for a company that structured its insurance to be really great for one person, but expensive for couples or families. Someone came to work with us for a big salary jump and then discovered that the increase she’d pay in insurance premiums for her husband more than wiped that out.

      She got the bump in title, and on paper she made more money, but her take home was less.

      She hadn’t asked about insurance premiums when she got the offer, and I bet her direct manager didn’t realize the difference (there were very few married people, or else lots of the married people had spouses with their own insurance).

  26. FN2187*

    I am struggling with a workplace etiquette issue.

    This fall, I am headed back to school this fall to pursue a JD. I am extremely excited about this and I am happy with the school I chose. Though I was an excellent student in undergrad, I struggled badly with the LSAT (and standardized testing, in general). My dream school was a T14. My school I chose is a T50; not Harvard, obviously, but it has an excellent reputation in my region and keeps jumping up in the rankings every year.

    That being said, I have a few coworkers who will ask, “Oh! Are you excited for law school?” When I respond, “Oh, yes!” They will then go on a tangent about how their son/nephew/friend’s daughter was accepted to [Good Regional University], but also Chicago, Michigan, Yale, etc., and [Good Regional University] is “such a lovely backup school,” but “Johnny/Sally will probably go to Chicago, so many more opportunities there.” It just makes me feel really, really sad. I know I could’ve done very well at those schools, but that it is not my path. And, I worked extremely hard to even get into my university, given that my LSAT scores were dreadful.

    How do I politely shut down this boorish behavior? These people are not usually cruel or mean, I should note.

    1. NaoNao*

      Maybe pre-empt them and hint “I’m in the best school for me right now. I would have loved to get into Dream School, but I’m just as excited to start at Okay School.”

    2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      I’d be straightforward: “I’m certain this wasn’t your intent, but the way you’re talking about the school I got into is a little insulting. Can we move on?”

        1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          And, just as a general note to humanity, when someone is telling you about a significant life change, that’s an opportunity to chat with them about the change and their aspirations. Don’t use it as an opportunity to talk up someone else, just be interested in what they’re telling you and be happy for them. Ask questions. In that moment, it’s about them, not you.

          I’ll never forget when I got accepted to grad school and my neighbor’s reaction was, “Oh, that’s nice. My son Johnny just started a Wharton MBA? Have you heard of Wharton? It’s a very well-thought of school blah blah blah blah blah…..” It’s like, can you take 30 seconds off from the narcissism and at least ask me what I’m studying there, at least?

          1. FN2187*

            This is exactly what has been bothering me! It’s like the ask just so they can go on about their nephew, friend’s kid, their own kid, etc. for ages.

            1. The Not Mad But Sometimes Irritable Scientist*

              That is, unfortunately, exactly what they’re doing. What I’d do is make your response specific to what you’re excited about, followed by a question.

              “So, are you excited for law school?”

              “Oh, yeah, [school] has some great programs for [specific area] and I’m really looking forward to digging into that. And [city] sounds like a really interesting place to live – have you ever been there?”

              Damn near impossible to hijack that.

              1. hermit crab*

                Oh man, this is fabulous advice. People who want to talk about themselves WILL talk about themselves. However, by asking a question you can steer them toward talking about a different aspect of their lives (hopefully one that is more neutral rather than condescending).

    3. AndersonDarling*

      I wouldn’t take it personally. People love talking about their kids getting higher degrees, but there is a big distinction between a student going to school and an adult going back to school. Be happy for their friends/children and understand that it’s not a competition, and remember that no one is comparing you to the Harvard students. Be proud about going back to school.

      1. FN2187*

        Definitely. I’m the same age as their kids (24), and I know my coworkers are not intentionally being rude. I will definitely work on letting those competitive thoughts go.

      2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        Except they’re making it a competition and a comparison. I think FN2187 is entirely within her rights to feel a little snubbed that her life accomplishment is treated as a conversational springboard to bragging about one’s kid. Even implying that someone’s school is a “backup school” is rude and insulting.

    4. Delta Delta*

      That’s incredibly rude on their part to call your school of choice a “backup school.” I graduated from and teach at a law school that is overall tier 3 but is very very highly ranked in 2 particular specialities, so I heard this a lot. I think you can do a couple things. You can phrase your response along the lines of, “I can’t wait to get to State U, they have a ____ clinic (or program or journal or whatever) that really interests me!” That can shift the focus to the positives about your school (and I am sure there are many) and hopefully springs the person to ask more. If the person makes as boorish response, you can respond simply (as I did), “why would you say that? I’m really excited about my choice.”

      Here’s some advice you didn’t ask for. Really take advantage of your experiential opportunities while in school. Learn how to get your name out there (without being a jerk about it). Really position yourself so that when you graduate you’re ready to hit the work force in a good job as a good young lawyer. People like me want to hire good lawyers (like you will be). Law school doesn’t always do a great job of preparing students HOW to be lawyers. If you can do good clinics/internships/clerkships and get good references that’ll position you nicely for your future, regardless of where you go to school.

      1. FN2187*

        Thanks! I appreciate the advice. My school has tons of clinics and also has amazing connections to the big law firms in my city, and I plan on taking advantage of every opportunity possible.

      2. winter*

        I gotta remember your reply. I have a colleague who will insult any vacation choice I make because it’s too boring – even several times for the same vacation because he forgot he asked.

    5. Lady By The Lake*

      As an attorney who went to a Good Regional Law School, I get this — it can be really annoying. I was different in that my scores would have allowed me to go anywhere I wanted to go, but I opted for Good Regional Law School due to its flexible hours (partial night school) and practical training opportunities. When people would make boneheaded comments I would just point out why I had chosen to go where I went. You might think about things that make Good Regional University good rather than focusing on what might have been.
      PS In the end, I am a MUCH better lawyer than many of my colleagues who went to Harvard or Yale. They were taught the theory of law, I was taught the practice of law.

      1. JKP*

        “They were taught the theory of law, I was taught the practice of law.”

        This to the 100th degree. My boyfriend has been an attorney for 30+ years. He went to a regional law school at night while working at a small law firm during the day. He got hired by the best national firm in his niche after he graduated because he could already do the practical work. Now he has his own firm and he has the hardest time hiring other attorneys who can actually do good work. He’s fired plenty of lawyers who went to the high priced big name school, but were completely incompetent in doing the real world work.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Theory of the law vs practice of the law.

        Oh my this, this, this.

        My friend said law school (big name) did NOTHING to show her how to navigate the paperwork and procedures required. Matter of fact, they did not even clue her in to how staggering the paperwork and procedures can be. Additionally, there was NO training on how to manage a workplace, run an office NOR manage people.
        Did I mention this is a BIG name school? This school failed my friend on many levels.

        OP, do not despair. It takes time for the truth to bubble to the surface. It would be nice to have their assurances and their support, but what you really need is your own determination to make this work. Smile softly, say, “That’s nice.” and tell yourself that you are going to knock law school out of the park. You are going to do your absolute best, no matter what others think about your school.

    6. mamabear*

      Ugh, that behavior is just gross. OP, those comments say more about your coworkers than you. I know it’s hard, but I would either ignore it or have a quick, enthusiastic statement ready about why you’re excited to go to school X. And good on you for knowing what is best for YOUR life and not getting swept up in prestige.

    7. Hilorious*

      Dear OP,

      As someone who is terrified by the mere prospect of the LSAT, and who would certainly fail if she tried to take it… YOU ARE AMAZING! Congratulations and good for you for making your dreams come true :)

      1. FN2187*

        Thank you!! It’s been an incredibly difficult path getting to law school. Last year I took the LSAT and scored so poorly that I was rejected from every school that applied to, including the school I am going to this fall. I studied and practiced really hard for this year’s LSAT, and raised my score to a respectable number. After being accepted, my school offered me a half ride — after they rejected me last year! So I think that’s one reason I’m feeling so bummed when they bring it up — this hellacious roller coaster I’ve been on is totally discounted.

        1. The Not Mad But Sometimes Irritable Scientist*

          That’s one thing that nobody who’s taken the LSAT or a similar test, or gotten a postgraduate degree, seems to understand. It’s like, “no no, you don’t understand, this test made me cry. Weekly. For the last year. It’s ten times longer and a hundred times harder than anything you’ve ever taken.”

    8. Jenny*

      I like the ideas above about pointing out the reasons the school is good, and also frankly just pointing out how rude it is for them to say your school is a second choice – I am older and further from school in my career so I often find myself pointing out to people at my office that schools vary by department and by what fits the individual student. Where I live people have loyalty to their hometown school that doesn’t take into context where they fit in the national picture so they are often very rude about me choosing to “go away” to school even though it was a personal choice and I came home with my degrees to help the community. Which I suppose is not very helpful because I’m just saying people can be rotten and snobby on both sides of the issue, but you can control your reaction :) maybe try dismissing them in your head as being narrow minded? I’m able now in my career to dismiss unimportant opinions without feeling any feelings about it, but that’s maybe a while coming for you if you are at the start of the road. Wishing you all the best in your learning and work!

    9. SJ*

      I feel this. I went to a Solid Reputation But Not Amazing liberal arts school for undergrad because they gave me a full ride. People were definitely confused because I was an excellent student and could have gone to a “better” school with the transcript I had, and people weren’t shy in being all, “…um…wow…okay?” when I told them where I was going to college. (And I still get those reactions sometimes.) Yeah, it made me sad too. So I wasn’t going to Harvard — so what? My hard work still paid off. I got a full ride! I got to use the college fund money I never touched to pay for my Masters degree at a really good school! I have ZERO STUDENT LOANS! People need to stop dumping their expectations onto others and just be happy for them.

      1. hermit crab*

        Yes, totally. I went to Super Elite Undergrad and, several years later, Decent Grad School. I chose Decent Grad School because they gave me a scholarship, the classes fit with my work schedule, they have great local connections, the campus was 20 minutes from my office, it was the only program of its kind in my city, and did I mention the scholarship? I literally only applied to that one school, because it was the only one that made sense for me. But I had a lot of weirdly defensive conversations with, like, my parents’ friends and neighbors (who were paying their adult children’s tuition at fancy grad schools, but I digress).

        FN2187, don’t forget that you are making the right decision for yourself. And, congrats on the half ride! That’s so fantastic. You are going to do great!

    11. Bigglesworth*

      As someone who is also starting law school this fall (and am visiting two this weekend), I completely agree that it’s hard to get into and a half ride is incredible!!! Good job! You’ll be awesome!

    12. Busytrap*

      And be excited and very proud about your T-50!! Harvard (and the other T-14s) aren’t the only way to get an excellent job making bank. I went to a T-50 myself – with full loan debt, silly me! – and I’m kicking ass at the field I’m in. When applying for my current job, I landed it and learned later that they chose me over folks with similar law firm experience but a slightly better pedigree because I DIDN’T go to a T-14; they figured I’d be more down to earth and less full of myself and a better cultural fit (not that there’s anything wrong with folks that went to T-14s, of course!). So there’s that!!

    13. Anonymous for This*

      Full Disclosure: I work in law school admissions and got my JD from a T-14.

      Congratulations on your acceptance!

      As a few others have noted, your coworkers are really mentioning law schools within the context of wanting to talk more about the success of their own kid/relative/etc. Indulge them if that’s what you’d usually do if the topic was something other than law school. I presume most of them will then go on about how wonder their relative is and really not say another word about your law school.

      They are being thoughtless by characterizing your law school as a “backup” or “safety” option. I don’t really think there’s much to be gained by having a long discussion with them about why you chose your law school, but if you don’t want to indulge their narcissism, I’d suggest just saying again that you’re looking forward to studying at X Law. If you’re moving to another area for law school, also mention how you look forward to living in NEW PLACE. If you’re staying in the area, mention how you’re glad that you’ll still be able to live wherever you’re living now.

      And if it helps you in terms of thinking about the competitive-by-proxy element of your coworkers, your T-50 school is still a big “reach” for the vast majority of law school applicants.

      Two other points (not directly related to your question):

      1. If you haven’t already, you should definitely review the ABA employment data for the school you plan to attend. Class of 2015 is out now, and Class of 2016 data should be out by April 15th. Job prospects are generally solid for T-50 schools, but the report should also give you a better sense of where people end up, both in terms of geography and type of practice (big firm, small firm, government, non-profit, salaries, jobs where a JD is helpful but bar passage isn’t required, etc.).

      If you have your heart set on biglaw, academia, the federal government (at least, right after graduation), or the federal judiciary (first as a clerk, and then maybe someday as an actual judge), this is an area where T-14s really excel versus other law schools. The vast majority of law jobs aren’t in these areas, though, so a good regional law schools is often as good a choice, if not better choice, for law school, especially after factoring in debt.

      2. You mentioned struggling with the LSAT and standardized testing. Keep in mind you’ll need to pass one more standardized exam (and a high-stakes one at that…the bar exam) and probably the MPRE (professional responsibility exam) as well.

      I don’t have any data to back this up (because, unfortunately, there’s no published data on this), but consider focusing more on “core” classes when you’re in law school. And by core classes, I mean courses with subjects that are going to show up on the bar exam. For instance, even if your school doesn’t require you to take courses like Evidence, Corporations, Family Law, and Trusts & Estates, I would encourage you to think about taking them as electives.

      This doesn’t obviate the need to do an intensive bar prep course before you take the bar, but at least you won’t be seeing the material for the first time during your bar prep course a couple of months before you take the bar.

    14. OhBehave*

      First of all – CONGRATULATIONS!! You have worked very hard to get to this point.

      For the most part, people don’t intend to demean your choice of schools. They want to be able to relate and share similar experiences. When they ask if you’re excited to start law school, just say, “Yes! I’m so excited to be following my dream.” and then ask them about their sweater, dog, or the project you’re working on together. Anything to avoid their blathering. If they persist in expressing their poor opinion of your school choice, you can tell them to stuff it! (not really). I would say, “GRU is an excellent school. They jump up in the rankings every year. I’m excited to be a part of their growth.” BTW – I hate having to defend your choice to these dolts.

  27. T3k*

    So I’ve been trying to apply to a job or two everyday for the past week. One responded but I’m actually surprised they did because the skills for the job they posted are a bit of a stretch of my abilities. I’ve done some simple HTML/CSS stuff before, but I couldn’t tell you how to build a website without assistance from Dreameeaver, etc. I made this clear in the cover letter, but they want to phone interview me next week. How do I address this without it sounding like I’m completely incompetent? I want to assume they read the cover letter, but what if they didn’t? I’m trying to research more on what they do so I can ask appropriate questions about the job, but my gut is getting all twisted just feeling like this job is too far out of my abilities.

    In slightly lighter news, same day I got a call to set up that interview, I received a message from a job I applied to back in Jan. but never heard anything from. Apparently they’ve been really busy so they haven’t even had a chance to look at my application but just wanted to keep me in the loop. I thanked them for that (and I really hope I hear more from them, as I’d love that job).

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I would ask questions like, “can you tell me more about how the person in this role would be involved in [task you aren’t super familiar with]?” and see how they answer. Based on their response, you could say something like, “I have experience in HTML and CSS, so I’m not an expert coder, but I would love the opportunity to expand my skillset in this area and I’m a fast learner” or whatever is relevant and true for you.

    2. Yetanotherjennifer*

      I can’t really answer without knowing the company and the job. (It’s also hard to know what you know, so forgive me if I’m talking too basic here.) So much of web dev varies based on the size of the company and the tools they use. I’ve been a sole developer, doing everything for a company, and I’ve been on the staff of a big ecommerce company where I just focused on the site. I’ve worked with artists and writers and I’ve created graphics and text myself. Take a look at the company’s website and see what it can tell you from viewing the source code. Some browsers have phased that ability out but some still have it. (View/Developer/Source in Chrome.) Many companies use a content management system, like Drupal, WordPress or Joomla, to run their site so you won’t have to do much hand coding, but it’s a nice skill to have. If the site is hand coded, then look at the quality of the code. Is it well documented, does it pass w3c standards, is it accessible? How dated is the code? You don’t want to criticize their site or even critique it, but they’ll expect you to have looked under the hood, so to speak. One important thing you’ll need to know on the job is are how well the tools they use create html and css. I like to compare working with software like Dreamweaver or a content management package to communicating through an interpreter. You design the page you want but that isn’t always the way it gets output through the software, or interpreted by the browser, even when the code is technically correct. Sometimes you can force the code you want, and sometimes you can’t. I remember when Dreamweaver used to eat the added code it didn’t understand. You can always google for the solutions to these quirks so the important thing here is to know this is an issue. Anyway, don’t psych yourself out before you interview. HTML and CSS are a good start. A lot of web development is about principles and good practices and communication. The rest can really vary and can be learned on the job.

    3. Director of Things*

      Congrats on hearing back from two jobs!

      While I can’t promise these employers read your cover letter, I can tell you I’d be surprised if they didn’t. I’m in the middle of hiring for 2 positions, and I’ve definitely read cover letters. I skim when it’s obvious they didn’t customize it for the company/position, but if someone was talking about specific skills I asked for in the job posting, I’d read it.

  28. Paranoid Engineer*

    I’m new to my job (less than 3 months) after leaving a very toxic situation . I’m struggling to adapt now that I’m in a job I can do well at and with people who provide genuine and timely feedback.
    I’m having imposter syndrome and get paranoid that it’s all a dream and I’m actually doing really badly but no one is telling me (this happened in my last job) . Any advice on navigating this or general advice on integrating in a new much bigger company?

    1. regina phalange*

      OMG – this was me. I was fired from my job almost four years ago. It was a very, very toxic environment and I was led to believe I was horrible at my job. So I start NewJob and have ridiculous PTSD. I was afraid if I made one mistake I’d be fired. People were too busy to train me so I was afraid they would decide they didn’t need me. I also went from a start up to a large company. 3.5 years later and I am still here. My advice – first of all, you are new, and most jobs have a 3-6 month ramp up time. Secondly, realize that while many places ARE toxic, you’re lucky not to be in that situation anymore. Observe others in how they act and in meetings. That was what really helped me – people who had been with the company 10+ years asked questions in meetings (I somehow, from last job, got the impression asking questions was a weakness). I realized that I was surrounded by people who wanted to help others learn and succeed, rather than set them up to fail. It will take a while for you to be comfortable, but it does happen. Being good at your job, which it sounds like you are, will also help, and build your confidence back up. Good luck and just know you are not alone!

    2. Rincat*

      What helps me is to first acknowledge that feelings aren’t reality – I have to actually say this out loud sometimes. If I feel like an imposter, I’ll stop and tell myself, it’s just a feeling, it’s not reality. Second, I try to focus on the evidence I have – you are getting genuine and timely feedback, which means you can trust those people to let you know if you are doing something wrong to speak up.

      I totally get how hard this is. I’m struggling with this myself and pretty much cried every day after work for my first week at NewJob because I was so anxious that I had gotten in over my head and that my new managers would see right through me, and I’d be fired on the spot. I had spent the last 10 years in toxic environments. I’ve been here now 6 weeks and it’s gotten a lot better since I’ve been trying to focus on what I know vs what I feel.

    3. Gadget Hackwrench*

      My first job out of college, at a small start up, my direct superior developed a nasty habit of telling me I was lucky to have a job at all every time I started to cotton on to some of their ridiculous workplace abuse. (For example when I objected to a forced all nighter.) He’d frequently drop hints I probably wouldn’t be able to get a job anywhere else and I should be grateful to them for the wonderful opportunities I was given by them, and that I was a pity hire and if I was someplace else I’d just be another number and not a person so they wouldn’t overlook my faults and I’d be fired almost immediately.

      This is sooooooo false. You may be a number or a cog at a BIG company, but most of them are set up in more efficient ways, with fewer opportunities for worker abuse, and a lot less motivation to squeeze every last drop they can out of each employee and leave them a dry husk. You deserve that much. Seriously. Every worker deserves to be in a non-toxic environment.

    4. Ama*

      Next month I will be four years out of the job that gave me work PTSD and I *still* get it from time to time, so the most important thing I can tell you is to be patient with yourself and don’t beat yourself up for not getting over it right away. The feedback thing is a particularly hard one to get over because since you’re used to getting blindsided with bad feedback it will take a while to fully accept that new job won’t do that to you.

      One thing that has helped me is recognizing that my work PTSD flares up most when a situation at my current job is somehow related to some of the most stressful parts of my old one. For example, post-Christmas at my old job used to mean a really heavy workload for me and the first year at new job when I was getting ready to go back to work after Christmas my body went into full panic mode. My most recent PTSD flare came because I needed to tell my boss that the new admin assistant position we’d been talking about creating for my department for awhile needed to happen sooner rather than later — a conversation that did not go at all well when it happened at old job (and was ultimately the final straw that resulted in me leaving). In both cases identifying that I was reacting to an old job situation and reminding myself that new job had given me no reason to think that they would handle things the same way helped calm me down.

      But ultimately, just give yourself time. As you replace your bad work experiences with good ones, you’ll be better able to fight off those bad feelings when they pop up.

      1. Paranoid Engineer*

        Thanks so much I get worried about asking questions especially and admitting i don’t know how to do stuff.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          This is going to sound stupid, but there is a little exercise you can use.

          EX:
          You catch yourself thinking, “I am worried about asking questions.”

          You quickly match that statement with a positive, correcting statement: “I used to worry about asking questions, but I am willing to give these people here a fair and reasonable chance.”

          The idea is we have negative thoughts jump in our heads all the time. So be prepared with a positive affirmation to go up against the negative thought. You might do well to plan out what your affirmation will be.

          “I don’t know how to do stuff.” You can pair that with, “I am willing to learn how to do the stuff I don’t know.”

          This is not an instant solution, nor is it a cure. It’s an exercise to help train your brain to help your brain to calm down so you can work in the new environment.

    5. zora*

      You are me in July of last year!

      1. Give it time. I have gotten much less paranoid as I’ve been here longer, and my boss has consistently given me good feedback, and NOT gotten mad at me when I made small mistakes.

      2. I talked to my therapist about it. One little tip that has really worked, I wrote out 5 sentences that directly contradict the Imposter Syndrome Voice in my head. So, when my brain says “Omg, what if they hate me and they are going to fire me any minute?” I either read, or write out in my notebook again: “[Boss] is happy with my work, and she would tell me if she wanted me to change anything. She is not going to fire me without warning.” Or even more positive things about myself: “I am good at my job, and I do everything right 98% of the time.”

      Try sitting down this weekend and thinking of a few sentences like that that you can write out to remember when you start worrying.

    6. Jadelyn*

      Two cures: time, and contrary evidence.

      Time will happen by itself. Remember that you’re healing from a traumatic experience! Like having a broken ankle, you wouldn’t expect yourself to be able to run a marathon as soon as the cast came off. This, too, will take time before you’re back to your usual self.

      Contrary evidence is a bit more active. I literally started a “nice things” folder in my email and one on my computer. I save bits of praise, friendly exchanges, complex documents I produced and did really well on, stuff like that. It gives me something concrete to go back to and say “I am doing good things here. There are people who like me here.” I also had the benefit of being in HR and actually seeing our firing process firsthand, so I could remind myself that unless you cost the organization thousands of dollars because of blatant misconduct or negligence, you would receive at least a half dozen coaching conversations and at least one or two formal PIPs or MOUs before they actually pursued termination of employment. You might not have the direct perspective like I got, but can you think of examples of other people’s mistakes and how they were handled? Especially ones that have similarity to your situation, whether the person who f’ed up is around your position level or seniority level, or your manager or their manager was involved in discipline for it, but it can help reassure you that Pam didn’t get fired for making a mistake, our manager sat down and worked with her on a plan to fix it instead, so if you mess something up it’s likely that the same thing would happen.

      You can also ask for feedback directly! “Hey boss, I’ve been here a few months now and I feel like I’m getting settled in, but I wanted to check in with you and see if I’m about where you’d expect me to be at this point, or if there’s anything I’m behind on that you’d like me to focus on?”

  29. TotesMaGoats*

    Dealing with guilt question.

    So, I’ve been at NewJob for a month now. OMG, it’s just wonderful. I’m so much happier and healthier. Still a TON to learn and we’ve got THE major accreditation visit next week. But, all in all, I’ve found a great place.

    The guilt is that my work BFF from OldJob, who left there about a month before me for a NewJob, called me the other day and she quit there. It was WORSE than OldJob on the crazy scale. Just completely unsustainable. I feel so bad talking about how wonderful everything is here when I know she’s now out of a job and looking again. She asks and I try to temper my joy (and that’s what it is). I know she’s got applications in the hopper and I sent her a job I found the other day. She says she’s happier but I still feel so bad.

    2. Marisol*

      That does suck. I do feel some admiration for your BFF for being able to articulate her needs around you “tempering your joy.” Some people would get weird/resentful/etc. instead of just asking for what they want. At least you guys can speak openly about stuff like that.

      1. TotesMaGoats*

        Sorry. I should’ve written that line better. She didn’t ask me to temper my joy, I’m trying to do that myself but she has flat out said to not feel bad and to tell her all the good things. That’s why she my work BFF. She’s my wonder twin. That was our nickname at OldJob, the wonder twins.

    3. crankypants*

      Rini is that you????
      My BFF@OJ (Rini) & I were laid off at the same time, she got a great new job doing what she loves using some old contracts. I got bupkus. Severance pay, unemployment, savings, all depleted & took a job I was so overqualified & being underpaid for and was a long commute.
      After 15 months still in crappy job and losing my mind & abilities.

      So, do you really want to know how I am? or do you just want to feel better about yourself?
      Tell me a little about your great job, inquire about my search and move to another topic as soon as possible.

      1. TotesMaGoats*

        Sorry. I’m not Rini. I do hope your BFF is providing you the support you need through this time. That’s really sucky for you. I do try to keep my gushing to a minimum. I hope you find something better soon! Good luck.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Did you point out AAM and posts talking about red flags on interviews?

      I hope your friend finds something reeally good very soon.

  30. Portia*

    I’m so glad this is today — I really need advice!

    The short version: should I take a new job for a big raise in pay, leaving my current job that I really love?

    The long version: This is my first year teaching at a smallish private high school (I moved from college teaching after I got my PhD). I love this school: the students are wonderful, the administration is really supportive, the parents are not pushy, my colleagues are helpful. Everyone here is just kind and lovely. I have a lot of autonomy in designing my curriculum, and three prep periods during the day (which is very unusual – most schools give two or fewer).

    I just got a job offer from another school in town, with a big pay increase (from 50k to 61k). This other school also seems lovely — I interviewed there last year but they wound up not having an opening. (Which is why I got the job offer without having reached out to them or interviewed this year.) Everyone there also seemed kind, supportive, etc — but you never really know until you’re working there.

    The downsides to the new school:
    -longer commute. My current school is centrally located, so even if we moved, we’d probably still live close by (my current commute is 10-15 minutes). The new school is out in the suburbs, where we don’t want to move, so no matter what I will probably have a 30-40 minute commute.

    -one fewer prep period, and probably more responsibilities in addition to teaching (advising students, coaching clubs, etc). Also probably less autonomy in designing curriculum (though I know there is some room for it).

    -all the unknowns! What if the students are spoiled brats? What if the administration isn’t supportive? What if parents make my life miserable?

    The upsides to the new school:

    -much more liberal environment (my current school is very conservative. I am not. I keep my mouth shut a lot in the break room.)

    -they *really* want me to come teach there. They are pursuing me as their only candidate and have said they won’t post the job opening unless I turn it down.

    -salary, obviously!

    That extra 11k a year is very hard to pass up, especially considering what a difference it would make over time. Raises like that do not come along often in my field, and this would probably permanently put me at a higher pay grade. But thinking about leaving my current school makes me sad. Also, the first year at any school is really hard, and I’m just seeing the light at the end of the tunnel here. The idea of doing it all over again at a new school next year, with new classes, is not appealing. And yet I know that I just have to get through that one year and it’ll be easier again.

    What say you, AAM community? This is a really hard decision for me!

    1. Portia*

      Oh, I should have noted that I did approach my principal about the job offer and asked if there was any possibility of a salary increase (not matching the current offer, but just some increase). Unfortunately, the salary scale is set, and though she was very gracious and understanding about it, she can only offer the standard 3% annual increase.

    2. Lady Julian*

      Oooo, that is a hard one! I was struck by a few things in your comment. One was the liberal/conservative environment; I’ve been a liberal in a very conservative environment for the past six years, and each year it gets a little harder to keep my mouth shut. I’ve gotten very good at it, but it makes me tired. Two, you asked a lot of “What if” questions, and in my experience, the “what ifs” are never a good way to make a decision. There are always “what ifs”, on both sides of a decision. For instance, what if your current school gets a new principal that you don’t like? What if you have a terrible student next year? “What ifs” are such complete unknowns that it’s not worth factoring them into the decision; make your decision on the basis of what’s known. And yeah, good pay is worth a lot, not just financially speaking.

      That said, as a teacher who has a lot of autonomy in the classroom, that’s worth a lot too. I have the ability to design my own classes and teach what I want, within reason, and that means a lot to me.

    3. AndersonDarling*

      I’ve been struggling with the same issue. Stay at the non-profit that I love, or leave for the job that offers $15K more. In my case, I’m leaning toward leaving because jobs are not permanent. I could make the good money for a year or two and leave to go somewhere else, or possibly even come back to my non-profit with new skills and the possibility of a better salary.
      And since you are a teacher, I’m betting you could leave on good terms and have the opportunity to return if things did not work out.

    4. Sandy Gnome*

      Do you know anyone who currently teaches there who could give you a feel for the level of support from administration?

      Also, how do the other benefits compare? Are insurance premiums comparable in cost, or would an increase in the monthly cost eat up a big chunk of that 11k? This is just something I would want to consider before making a move.

      1. Portia*

        I don’t know anyone personally. I asked a lot of questions when I interviewed, and everyone was very positive about the environment, but I wouldn’t expect someone to be really candid about lack of support in an interview with members of the administration present.

        Benefits are identical – health insurance fully paid in both cases.

        1. TootsNYC*

          Can you find a way to reach out to those people in the evening? When they’re not in front of the administration?

    5. Max Kitty*

      How much more will you really be making per hour with the longer commute, less prep time, and more responsibilities? And taxes etc take a chunk too. Sometimes a raise that seems significant isn’t really a raise at all.

      1. Portia*

        I just did a lot of calculating and figured out that the take-home will be about $6k more. More if I max all the retirement contributions available to me. I didn’t factor in commute time or less prep time, though. Hmm. These are helpful suggestions to weigh.

      2. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

        This! When I was debating between keeping OldJob and taking NewJob, I factored in additional commute and gas costs, plus the additional costs for daycare and other benefits. I even factored in my lunch – I like to eat lunch outside of the office and at OldJob, there was no break room so I had to purchase a lunch at a restaurant. NewJob would save me money with an available break room.

        With schools, one other factor to consider is classroom expenses and after-school activities. How expected are you to be present at the different functions? Some schools truly expect their staff to be visible at most events and to volunteer to coach or advise clubs.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I am biased, I must disclose that upfront.

      My answer is NO, 11k is not worth giving up all this that you have. NO do not do this.

      As justification for not moving, if it were me then I would consider writing a budget. A really good budget, cutting some expenses where possible. I’d stay in place and look for ways to get some extra cash coming in.

      Let me frame it this way, 11k is before taxes. So let’s say 8k just because we have to pick a number. You could easily blow 8k in medical care for stomach aches, headaches, sleeplessness and a host of other problems because new job is horrible. In my mind, my happiness is worth a heck of a lot more than 8k. Take what you have that is going well and look for ways to maximize it.

    7. Jenny*

      I’ve been in a similar decision and I was able to negotiate for more of what I wanted to ameliorate the risk – in your case I’d aim for time and money – prep periods and more money to make up for more committees and commute, although I wouldn’t explain it that way while negotiating

    8. Evergreen*

      I think it’s worth spending some time to think about what the extra money means: if it’s a vague ‘yeah, I guess more money is better than less money’ it sounds like you should stay.

      If $11k is the difference between buying a house and not (or whatever your life goals are) then it makes sense to move. But that way if you end up miserable at least you know you’re working toward something specific.

    9. Alice*

      Could you get a sense of the parents’ culture somehow? Maybe the PTA has an open group on Facebook or something?

    10. blackcat*

      “-one fewer prep period, and probably more responsibilities in addition to teaching (advising students, coaching clubs, etc). Also probably less autonomy in designing curriculum (though I know there is some room for it).”

      This jumped out at me. When I was teaching, I was offered about 10k to teach an extra class for one year. I turned it down, because I knew that the extra stress (particularly when I had some major life-stuff to deal with) was not going to be worth it.

      Also, the extra commute can feel even worse when you’re just going home to grade papers. I had a 35-40 min commute while teaching, and it added a fair bit of stress to my life.

      The only thing that would make me consider it is “-much more liberal environment (my current school is very conservative. I am not. I keep my mouth shut a lot in the break room.)” If this impacts your ability to teach or your interactions with students (eg male students are allowed to get away with bullshit that female students are not, or students of color treated much more harshly than white students), I’d jump ship. That’s more along the lines of discrimination, rather than overall politics, but I’ve definitely seen more conservative administrators in particular be less sympathetic to students of color. There was an incident at my school during my last year of teaching that would have caused me to quit, if I hadn’t put in my notice already. That said, I’ve also encountered plenty of conservative teachers who are wonderful with students from all backgrounds and a liberal teacher who legit called on the one Black student in the room and asked what it was like to be descended from slaves (the student was actually only second generation american, so this was both racist and reflected a complete lack of knowledge about the particular student’s background).

      If I were you, I would probably stay put. The supportive admin, reasonable parents, helpful colleagues and extra prep period are definitely worth $11k to me. A bad or even so-so head of school can really, really make your life miserable, particularly as a new teacher. I would ask for a raise at your current place, because I suspect you would stay put if it was only 5k in difference. Whether or not you mention the offer is up to you. My biggest raise was a 9% bump after my first year of teaching, so these types of raises do happen in the prep school world.

      1. Portia*

        These are really helpful points, thank you. The school is all-girls, so no male favoritism, and I have seen no discrimination against students of color. However, LGBT students have no support at all and one of mine withdrew from school over it. (Both the schools in question are religiously affiliated, but mine is much more old-school. It’s pretty much don’t ask, don’t tell.)
        Tried for the raise already; it’s a no-go, unfortunately.

  31. strawberries and raspberries*

    1) It’s the last day of my first week at my new job after my promotion.
    2) It’s Casual Friday, which we NEVER had at my old site, so I’m wearing JEANS.
    3) It’s my birthday!

    Feeling pretty good right now.

  32. KKay*

    My son is looking for his first job after recently graduating with a Master’s in Public Accountancy & Bachelor’s in Accounting (5-year program). What do interviewers think of men with neatly-trimmed beards? If it is relevant, he is looking for accounting jobs in Texas and he wants to be a CPA.

    1. Rincat*

      I don’t know about the accounting industry specifically but I think a well-groomed beard is no issue. I think it should be close to the face, not too long – the longer it gets, the harder it is to keep neat (I know because my husband is a long-time beard wearer). Also as long as his head hair is also well-groomed, and his suit is nice, a beard is fine. I live in Texas and I see a wide variety of beards belonging to people of many different jobs.

    2. Emotionally Neutral Grad*

      For what it’s worth, I work for a financial institution (albeit in the northeast) and it’s quite common for men to have facial hair in my office.

    3. Malibu Stacey*

      I work in a finance and a neatly-trimmed beard can actually be a plus if it makes him look older.

      1. K.*

        I used to work with a project manager who grew a beard his senior year of college for this reason – he “didn’t want to look like a kid.” Then he found that he liked the beard so he kept it (he’s in his early 30s now).

    4. OwnedByTheCat*

      I can’t even imagine it being an issue, but I work at a pretty hippy nonprofit. I think these days a neatly trimmed beard is more and more common.

    5. Alli525*

      My question is, why WOULDN’T a beard be fine? Why would an interviewer think negatively of someone with a neat beard? I’m not sure where your hesitancy is coming from.

      1. Natalie*

        There was a fairly long period in the middle-class, white, US universe where beards were Not Done. IIRC facial hair was banned at Disney for decades.

    6. Parenthetically*

      Facial hair is definitely fully back in at the moment, so it’s much more common than it would have been 5 or 10 years ago for a young man to have a full beard. If it’s neat, I cannot imagine anyone having a concern about it. I also agree with the comment about it making him look older/more mature.

    7. Margaret*

      I don’t know about Texas (if there are regional differences), but I’m a CPA in Oregon, and there’s no problem with facial hair. Generally unkempt, whether in facial hair, hair, clothing, whatever, would be an issue. But having facial hair is not a big deal at all. In fact, if anything it probably makes him look older/more mature and that’s a plus.

    8. AnotherLibrarian*

      As long as it is neatly kept, trimmed and he is otherwise properly dressed for an interview, I think it would be fine.

  33. Rhys*

    Today I’m very frustrated by my company’s bogus overtime policy. I’m non-exempt so I get payed OT if I work over 40 hours in a week, but if I use personal, vacation or sick time in the same week I work overtime I don’t get paid for it because I *technically* didn’t work 40 hours that week. I was sick last Friday so I am not getting paid for the OT I did earlier in the week. It was only a total of two hours but it was very draining (the reason I had to work OT was because my department was completely swamped) and I also could really use the extra money even if it’s not much. I really don’t get how this policy is allowed. To my mind, I should at least get two hours of sick time back.

    1. MegaMoose, Esq*

      Unfortunately, the federal government and most states count overtime on a 40-hour week basis and only count hours actually worked, so this doesn’t sound like a bogus policy of your company’s in particular. Everywhere I’ve worked has operated this way as well. I believe California counts overtime as anything over eight hours in a day, though, so if that’s where you live, you should talk to HR.

      1. Rhys*

        I’m not in California, but frustratingly my department has an office in California so my coworkers there aren’t subject to the same policy. It’s so demoralizing to put in extra effort and then basically be penalized for getting sick (partially from the stress of said effort).

        1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          It might be demoralizing or frustrating, but it’s not bogus. Overtime is for time over 40 regular work hours.

          1. Rhys*

            I’m not saying it’s bogus legally. I’m saying it’s bogus in principle. I really don’t get how it’s ok to measure it on anything but a day-to-day basis. What if it was an x-hour work month, and any paid time off you took during that month counted against you? That would seem absurd, wouldn’t it?

            1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

              How did that line from True Grit go? “I do not entertain hypotheticals; reality is quite vexing enough.” You didn’t actually work over 40 hours a week. Overtime is compensation for working more than 4o work hours in any given work week, regardless of alternative scenarios we can dream up.

              I worked 9 hours yesterday. I’ll knock off early today and go have a beer. There’s no reason why I should get time and a half for that hour yesterday.

              1. Rhys*

                Ok first of all I just want to say that I posted my comment not asking for advice or asking “Is this legal” but just wanting to vent about something personally frustrating to me and maybe commiserate with people who have been in similar situations, so I don’t really appreciate the tone of your responses.

                It sounds like your work is very different than mine and the 40 hour work week policy makes sense for you. I do not have the option to knock off early to compensate for working longer the day before. I work a set shift. It does not make sense for my department to log OT this way. My company has a one-size-fits-all policy that doesn’t actually fit my department and it is a common frustration in my office. Since I rarely call in sick this is not usually a problem for me but I am feeling very cheated right now. Hence the venting.

              2. Jadelyn*

                Except there is reason – if your shift is 8 hours, you deserve additional pay for staying later, because the standard 40-hour work week is based on a presumption of 5 8-hour days in general. But then, I’m in California, have worked here my entire adult life except for a brief stint living in Tennessee, and our over-8/over-40 method of calculating overtime is so standard to me that I feel like it should be self-evidently the better way of doing things, so there’s my bias. The over-8/over-40 method makes it harder for employers to take advantage of employees by forcing them to work longer shifts but cutting their days for the week before it reaches the point of requiring overtime (yes, I know some people choose that type of schedule, yes, I know some people feel – as you do – that the time off later in the week makes up for the long day, but that’s not the case for everyone).

                For example, myself, I have chronic pain and low energy caused by major clinical depression. If I have to work a 10-hour day, I’m completely wiped out that night meaning no housework or hobbies will get attended to, and will be hurting the next day because I didn’t get a chance to rest up fully based on my body’s needs. Going home early a couple days later doesn’t do squat to get me back that wasted evening and day’s worth of extra pain. I’d rather get the bit extra payment to recognize that it was a rather major inconvenience to me.

                It’s very much a personal calculus of whether you feel like time off later is sufficient compensation for the inconvenience of an extended workday at the time. Some people do think it’s a good balance. Some people don’t find it to be so. Both are valid viewpoints.

        2. MegaMoose, Esq*

          Oof, that’s extra frustrating. I’ve got something of a reverse situation – my company has an office in Florida, where the people who do the same work as me aren’t eligible for overtime at all, while we get OT after 48 hours. Of course, it’s the people here who tend to complain about that, because the people in Florida can work as many hours in a week as they want, while we are strictly barred from working over 48.

    2. KatieKate*

      I don’t think this is bogus–my system is similar. If we work overtime, we have to take the equivalent off in the same pay period so departments don’t have to pay out. It’s frustrating, but fine.

      1. TootsNYC*

        One other way of thinking about this–your extra hours stress you physically, and it stresses your private life. If you get that time off close to the extra hours, you can more powerfully mitigate all that.

        You can get some rest, right in the same time period. You can do the laundry you didn’t get to do, hopefully freeing up time and energy to spend more deeply with your family or friends or hobbies.

        You get the balm right next to the irritation.

        I give unofficial comp time (my team members are exempt) for extra hours, or extra-stressful days. And I don’t let my team roll those days over into vacation 2 months from now. I want them to use it up so that they get the feeling of being compensated or maybe indulged close to the feeling of being imposed upon.

    3. NaoNao*

      My guess is because despite working a 10 hour day, you had 8 full hours off of work in that week. So while you had a long, draining, stressful day, you also had a day of rest after it.
      Also, I think this prevents people from abusing the system, say, by working 3 12 hour days early in the week and getting 4 hours of overtime on each, and then bouncing out of work at 1 PM on a Friday.
      The overtime policies have to cover everyone, and while you personally were overworked and drained, the policy doesn’t care about your personal situation, sadly.

      1. Rhys*

        I mean I know it’s legal but I believe it’s bogus that it’s such a common policy. It seems to be punishing people for using their paid time off just because a few bad eggs might abuse the system. If I worked two 12 hour days and then took a sick day later that week I would get paid the same as if I had worked a normal week and I really don’t think that’s right.

        1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          Punishing you? Look, I realize you’re frustrated, but it’s not punishing you and it’s not bogus. Overtime is for time over 40 regular work hours. It’s not time over 40 total pay period hours.

          If you worked 32 regular work hours, took 8 sick hours, and then worked 8 overtime hours, you still worked….40 regular work hours. That’s not punishing you for getting sick, that’s just how overtime works, and that’s how it works everywhere I’ve ever worked, public or private sector, small or large company.

          1. Allypopx*

            I do think they should prorate the sick time, which it sounds like they didn’t. But otherwise yeah, I agree with this.

            1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

              Right, this is what is confusing me. In my situation I would stay home on the day I was sick, but not charge myself any sick time (because I’d already worked my hours earlier in the week). That seems reasonable to me.

              1. Allypopx*

                It might be because you charge yourself. That’s my setup as well, and I would do the same, but I think some places have a “charge-you-for-the-full-day-missed” policy even if that “technically” puts you over 40 hours for the week. The big thing with that though is that I’ve only ever heard of it being applied to exempt employees, which Rhys is clearly not. As an exempt employee I’d probably get annoyed but let it go. As a non-exempt I’d probably push back and ask for my sick time to be docked appropriately.

          2. Rhys*

            Just because something is legal and common doesn’t mean it’s right. California’s laws on this make much more sense.

            1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

              Convince me why it’s wrong, then, instead of just telling me it’s “bogus” and you feel persecuted. Because as far as I’m concerned, you worked a long, stressful day, which sucked, and then you took a day off, and the hours you actually worked didn’t exceed 40. I’m really, really not seeing why you should get overtime pay in this situation.

              1. Rhys*

                Unless you’re in a position to give me the money I’ve been denied I don’t really understand why you want so badly for me to make a case to you, but see above (and maybe consider employing the “take the letter-writers at their word policy” in the open thread; I didn’t really want to share all of the details of my job to prove to people here that I deserve their sympathy, I just wanted to vent).

                1. The Not Mad But Sometimes Irritable Scientist*

                  I generally approach posts in the Friday open thread as if people have a problem they need advice or a constructive reality check on. Venting is a waste of time.

                2. Rhys*

                  Venting is a waste of time, in your opinion. For others, myself included, it is a wonderful stress reliever. Perhaps in the future if you see somebody venting here and you disagree with what they’re venting about (and, as in this case, nowhere in their vent did they ask for advice) you should keep your thoughts to yourself. It is not helpful to tell somebody who is upset about something that they’re wrong to be upset/are being silly/don’t deserve sympathy. Pro tip.

                4. MegaMoose, Esq*

                  I deeply dislike arguing with anyone on the internet, but you’re being pretty aggressive here, Mad. Rhys can vent if they want to.

                5. Ask a Manager* Post author

                  @Rhys, if you post here, you’re going to get opinions, even if you just want to vent; that’s how this thread works.

                  @Mad, you’re being too aggressive here.

                  Please stop this and move on.

                6. Rhys*

                  Don’t worry Alison, after the way I was treated in the comments as a letter writer recently and now being chastised for speaking in my own defense I think I’m done with this site.

                7. Ask a Manager* Post author

                  I’m not chastising you; I’m explaining that this is an advice site, and if you post here, you will get advice.

                  Certainly no site will be for everyone though, and if it’s not for you, I hope you will find something that’s more to your taste!

      1. LCL*

        We have contract language that would have paid your OT, and your sick time. This sort of thing can be negotiated.

    5. Searching*

      I understand your frustration but I believe that policy is allowed – unless you work in California.

    6. Owlette*

      Does your company give back any PTO if your worked hours and PTO add up to over 40 hours in a week? For example, I’m non-exempt at my company, and my schedule is flexible enough that I work extra Monday through Thursday and get out early on Friday. I took next Friday off; HR put 8 hours of PTO on my timecard for next Friday, but say if I work 35 hours Monday through Thursday, they will then change Friday to only using 5 hours of PTO, and I’ll get the extra 3 hours deposited back into my PTO bank. Is that something your company would consider doing? That way you’re not losing out on anything, and you get extra PTO hours to take a half-day off on a later date.

      1. Rhys*

        Nope, any OT we log in that week does not get given back in our PTO. My department works in very regimented schedules due to the nature of our business (not a call center, but think of a similar need for coverage at specific times) and we’re required to work overtime during certain high-volume times of year. One thing that’s especially galling is that our business is 24/7 and employees take turns doing weekend coverage which is paid at a flat number of OT hours plus time worked, but if you are on the schedule for weekend coverage you can’t take any time off during the preceding week without that time being taken out of your weekend hours. This just leads to people coming in to work sick which makes it not a good policy as far as I’m concerned.

        1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          THIS is where the bogosity lies, then. It’s not that you should be paid overtime every time you work over 8 hours a day, it’s that you lose PTO when you’re out sick and then have to work OT anyway. That’s the issue.

          1. Rhys*

            Thank you for explaining to me what I already know, hence me calling it bogus in the first place.

              1. The Not Mad But Sometimes Irritable Scientist*

                I can give the benefit of the doubt, but I can’t read minds. It genuinely seemed to me that you were expecting overtime to count your PTO hours – which sounded tremendously unreaslistic. It was in no way clear that you were net losing PTO hours because of mandatory weekend overtime.

    7. Gadget Hackwrench*

      In this case you should be getting those two hours extra you work paid in straight time. They can justify not paying time and a half, because you didn’t WORK more than 40 hours, but an hour worked is an hour paid, so if you’re saying they only paid you your usual 40 hours, there’s a problem here.

      1. Arjay*

        Yes, that’s how we work it too. If you worked 35 hours Monday – Thursday and called out sick on Friday, you’d be paid for the 35 hours as straight time, plus the 8 hours of PTO, for a total of 43 hours of pay for the week.

    8. The IT Manager*

      Well, it’s legal and not that outrageous. Here’s my question for you … how many hours did you take off on Friday?

      If you worked 34 (8 hrs/day plus 2 OT) and then still had to take 8 hours of paid sick time on Friday, that seems a bit unfair but not to the level of upset you seem to have.

      I’d think that if you’re tracking 40 hour work week that after working 34 hour Mon – Thurs, that you only should need to work 6 more hours that week to 40 so you should only have to take 6 hours of sick leave. But I know that that’s not always the case.

    10. Isben Takes Tea*

      Rhys, I agree that this is so frustrating when, as you explained, you work set shifts and have to go over that time. What’s bogus is that the company can treat your time that way, but won’t let you turn around and do it to them (“I worked extra yesterday, so I’ll leave early today”). That’s why I love California’s laws (more than 8 hours in a day), because it respects the realities of shift work.

      I think a lot of other commenters are going on the assumption that in many offices, the time just “evens out” eventually.

      1. Natalie*

        That, and functionally it does mean non-exempt people can get paid time and a half for time off. My company pays OT based on total hours booked rather than worked, so vacation and holiday pay are included. (As far as I understand at some point they mistakenly believed this was required and now it’s politically hard to change it.) The end result is people voluntarily working 4-10s during a holiday week so they’ll get time and a half for the holiday, while the exempt staff just get straight time.

    11. Ktelzbeth*

      I’m sorry. Legal or not, I can understand your frustration. I hope you are over your illness.

  34. HelloItsMe*

    I am writing a job description for the first time. Any tips? Things to make sure to include? Things not to include? I googled “writing job description askamanager” but nothing came up.

    3. NaoNao*

      Ooo! I just wrote one for a job I want to create within my company.
      I searched online for the job title, copy pasted a few lines from the best candidates for a match, and then tweaked it to my needs.

    4. Allypopx*

      Is there a database that holds the job descriptions for other positions in your company? That should have most of the stock language they want (must be able to lift 20 lbs, other duties as assigned, whatever it may be) and you could use that as a template. I’d talk to HR, personally, and see if there’s anything they want to be sure is in there. That tends to vary by company.

    5. T3k*

      Is there any way to ask what skills they’re looking for for this position (say the one the position would report to or, if the person is leaving, them)? I wish my last boss had asked me what skills were needed for my job, because I saw the posting she put out and I was like “no we don’t need that, we don’t do that, we don’t even have that OS,” etc.

    6. AndersonDarling*

      I’d look up the job a job board and see what other people are using. And I’d be sure that the job description is not using internal terms so that people on the outside can understand the job.

    7. whichsister*

      Start backwards. I had to create a job posting for an intern and for graduate assistants and I always start with “what would good look like in this position” then work my way backwards. What tasks will need to be done to achieve this good? What knowledge will he or she need to have? What skills will he or she need to have to achieve good? How will good be measured?

    8. Huddled over tea*

      We tend to split things into several sections: 1. the job’s purpose/goal, 2. main responsibilities (the day to day tasks), 3. main skills required/desired (software, qualifications, background experience, network) and 4. a little blurb about where the role fits within the team, how big the team is, the team culture and what growth/opportunities are available for that role.

      In my opinion, I find that last bit really helpful for myself!

  35. Rachel*

    Glad I got in early!

    I need some advice on this. I recently lost 150 pounds (prior to starting at my current company) and I’m having a tummy tuck and breast implants done in about a week. I will be absent from the office for two weeks. I anticipate that I will look significantly different (or so I hope anyway!) and that people at work may notice the change. Most people are nervous their coworkers are going to ask questions that they don’t want to answer – I’m the opposite. I’m not going to advertise it at all (only my boss and one close coworker know why I’m going out) but if someone asks me a direct question, I will answer honestly. It’s likely that some of our managers, senior managers and directors who I’m close with will ask the question because we have a very open/friendly culture here. I’m not ashamed of having cosmetic surgery at all so I’m not afraid to say yes. However, I work in Human Resources and I’ve gotten the advice from some friends (non-HR friends) that say as HR I shouldn’t discuss this at all at work and that I should try to come up with another excuse for being out. Asking a direct question could not be construed as sexual harassment as far as I’m concerned and I’m not worried that having implants done with affect my status or perception here. Am I off base? Is this something an HR person shouldn’t do, in your opinion? I’m afraid that if I try to act like I didn’t have cosmetic surgery done it will be even more awkward because it’ll be obvious and people will then think it’s bizarre that I’m clearly lying/ashamed about it. What are your thoughts, AAM community?

    1. Isben Takes Tea*

      Huh. I don’t see why your friends think that working in HR makes any difference–at least, I don’t think I would react any differently.

    2. Allypopx*

      I think you are in the best position to know your profession and your office culture – if you don’t think it will be a problem, go with your gut.

    3. Sibley*

      I would just say that due to your weight loss, you had some cosmetic surgery to deal with excess skin and other effects. True, high level, not offensive, and you can elaborate more depending on who you’re talking with.

    4. Parenthetically*

      I think your instincts are absolutely fine. You have a plan, you’re going to be discreet but honest, you’re not trying to be either sneaky or overshare-y. Seems exactly right to me.

  36. straws*

    My department currently has a leased, part-time employee that works with us. He works for another company, but most of his employment work is with us. He’s on the low end of the pay scale, and we’re about to hire for another position that will pay more than what he makes. I want to be prepared with a response should he either apply (unlikely because he wants PT, but not impossible that he’ll apply or argue he could do it in PT hours) or simply complain about his pay rate. He used to report to me prior to a small restructure. I’m senior to both positions, but not the direct manager. I’ll have say in the final decision. I’m struggling with this for the following reasons:
    Applying: His work is OK and his weaknesses are where this position’s strengths would need to be. So I really don’t want him in this position. He hasn’t been receptive to feedback on this in the past.
    Payrate: We’ve tried to raise his rate in the past and he’s refused. We’re only now starting to grow, so previous raises outside of cola were basically unheard of. Both I and his current manager separately advocated and were approved to increase his rate despite this restriction, and he declined because it wasn’t enough to make changing his contract worth his time. Neither of us is motivated to burn additional capital on this.
    It’s likely that he’ll come to me because I handle a lot of the department stuff that will go on to HR before it gets there. My current plan is to just send him back to his manager, but our working relationship is already tense due to the above points and some other situations where I’ve audited & criticized his work (as part of my assigned tasks). I don’t want to see it further deteriorate while I still need to work with him. I’m probably overthinking this, but I’d feel more comfortable if I had some sort of script and this site is the best for that!

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I think that you and his direct boss should work together to come up with how you will explain this to him. Both of you should be saying the same thing.

      I think that the most useful fact is that the job requires X, Y and Z, which are not strong points of his. Hopefully, you can point out things that are his strong points and that tends to explain why he is staying put. If he acts upset, then tell him that is also a consideration in your decision. Perhaps you can legitimately say that it is important in this other job that the person be able to accept feedback.

      As far as the money, if he mentions a raise remind him of what happened last time. Tell him you went to a lot of work to get that for him and then he rejected the raise himself. Let him know that you cannot waste time like that. If he asks for a raise then he need to be prepared to do the work involved in accepting that raise. It’s part of his job to do this.

    2. Fortitude Jones*

      Wait – this guy is a mediocre employee and turned down a raise?! Good luck dealing with this one.

    3. Huddled over tea*

      You could just let him apply, and then let him know you’re moving forward with other candidates who were stronger, presuming there are better applicants. I think it would look strange if you stopped him from applying at all but if he was just beaten out in a fair process, it might feel better?

  37. Anon for today*

    My fiance got a job in a city a few hours from where we live and I’m leaving my current job at the end of the month to follow him. I’ve been at my job for a 1 1/2 years and it’s my first job out of college. I’m giving them 3 weeks notice as I want to leave on good terms. I’m wondering how to write a resignation letter? Is it similar format to cover letter? How do I frame my leaving to follow my SO?

    1. MegaMoose, Esq*

      The only thing a resignation letter needs to do is let your employer know in writing when you would like to leave. So assuming you have a good relationship with them already, you should tell your manager in person, and the letter is just a formal record of that conversation. Just be polite and straightforward. You don’t need to get into any real detail, either. Just say you’ve enjoyed working with them, you are moving to be near family, and you’d like your last day to be X. Leaving on good terms isn’t really about the letter (assuming you’re not suddenly a jerk), it’s about the relationship you’ve built.

    2. Sadsack*

      I think I would tell my manager verbally and then just put in the letter that I am resigning and what my last day working will be. I don’t think there’s us s need for further information in the letter.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Keep it simple– very simple. No need for a formal letter unless they ask you for one. Just talk to your boss and say you’re leaving, you’d like your last day to be in 3 weeks. If you like your boss, you can tell her you’re moving and that’s the only reason, that you’ve enjoyed your time at the company but your fiance got a job elsewhere. (People move for family reasons all the time; I’m in my current city because my partner is pursuing a PhD, and no one batted an eye when I mentioned that. No one said, “But they’re not maaaarrrried!” So don’t sweat that part, or any of it, really.)

      If they ask for a letter, just send an email: “I am resigning from my position at Wakeen’s Teapots; my last day will be April ___. Thank you.” Usually, they just ask for that so they can have a record of your resignation date.

      Do you think they would be open to the possibility of remote work? Would you be interested in that? Something to consider these days. Good luck!

    4. Lady By The Lake*

      Dear Manager:

      As we discussed, my last day with Teapots Inc will be Friday, March 10, 2017.

      Anon for today

      If it was a good relationship, I might say something like “It has been a pleasure working with you. I will do whatever I can to make this transition smoother.” or anything like that, but you shouldn’t explain why you are leaving.

    5. The Not Mad But Sometimes Irritable Scientist*

      As noted, I’d approach this first as a conversation, and use the letter more as a formal documentation.

      1. Not Karen*

        Yes. When I told LastJob I was leaving, I didn’t even know resignation letters were a Thing. As part of the exit process, my supervisor told me that for documentation purposes, I would need to type up an official resignation letter, and he told me exactly how to do that and what it should say.

  38. AnotherAlison*

    I really need some new goals. I’m unfortunately one of those people who likes getting a gold star and checking things off my list, but when I graduated college, I didn’t really aim that high. I had my son and my husband, and I just wanted to get into a nice house and start my career. A few years into working, I figured wanted to be a project manager, we wanted to move to a house on acreage, I wanted a salary of “X” and to have a net worth of “Y”. Now I’m there. (And the oldest kid is in college, doing fairly well.)

    I have another 20+ years to work, and I don’t have anything I’m aiming for. I’m not extremely interested in job advancement. (I want to progress, but I don’t want to be managing my division or anything like that.) Any suggestions on figuring out a shift? I also don’t want to open a cupcake store or move to Belize or anything that extreme. I just want to achieve something that is meaningful to me, and I have little idea what that would actually be!

    1. (Not A) RetailManager*

      Any hobbies you want to get into? It’s not much, but I am working on perfecting my sourdough bread and getting a few chickens next year! You could also find an organization with a mission you like and start volunteering.

      1. AnotherAlison*

        Hobbies and volunteering are good ideas.

        Not chickens, but I actually thought about starting a garden, but I realized I really don’t want to (not a big fan of outdoorsy work). : ) I kind of have a hobby of “working out” that I just ramped up again, after a year of not doing much and finishing a marathon in 2015. I thought about focusing more on that.

        I volunteer for a couple organizations through work, but I haven’t found anything I’m extremely passionate about. I did a STEM outreach event, and realized, OMG, I do not enjoy working with teen girls at all. So, I would need to keep looking there, but good suggestion.

        1. Volunteer Coordinator in NOVA*

          I always say that volunteering is somewhat like dating, it can take awhile to find the right opportunity that fits yours needs. There are so many interesting and non-traditional opportunities right now so it’s a good time to be looking. Something that I think is helpful to think about is what motivates you as that might help you find the right fit. According to McClelland’s Need theory, I’m motivated by achievement so when I volunteer, I try and find activities that might be more behind the scenes like data entry as I like to be able to physically see what I’ve done, know the impact and not have to work with others to achieve it.

    2. SophieChotek*

      Are there any causes you are interested in? Political, religious, charity/non-profit. Getting involved there — that might be meaningful if the cause means a lot ot you.

      Otherwise, as (Not a) Retail Manager said — is there any hobby/skill you want to pick up? I have a friend who said she tried to learn to bake a new dish every week and other super-smart friend-of-a-friend who tried to learn a new language every year (and I guess is now up to like 14 language or something…)

      1. AnotherAlison*

        Learning new languages sounds interesting. I used to be fluent in Spanish, and I had thought about picking that up again back when my son was taking it in high school, but I never gave it much thought after that.

        1. KatiePie*

          I recently went this route. I devoted a lot of last year to studying for a certification in my field and really liked how much I was feeding my brain. I knew when it was over I wanted to keep my mind active and learning, but also wanted a reprieve from the stress of career-related learning. So I decided I’d casually try to learn Norwegian (why not?). I spend 10-15 minutes each day on Duolingo (hello, free, fun app!), and am really enjoying it.

          1. Sheep*

            Any reason for choosing Norwegian? (I’m Norwegian) Duolingo is great – I have quite a few friends who have taught themselves Norwegian that way. Most of them have Norwegian partners though, which is their motivation to learn. My SO is an Arabic-speaker, I’m really struggling with that language. I wish he spoke Spanish or French instead; I so love those languages!

            1. SophieChotek*

              Good to know about the Duolingo app. I’ve also studied Norwegian off and on (self-taught) and have about 5 Norwegian grammar books up my shelf. Which haven’t been cracked open for about 3 years now.

            2. KatiePie*

              I made a list of languages based on what would be fun to know (Czech or Gaelic being on that list–both my heritage), easy to learn (Norwegian, Dutch), or potentially useful (French–I already speak Spanish). Ease won out, and additionally, I’m visiting Norway this Fall with my roommate, so it’s kind of a fun lead up to that event for me.

    4. Parenthetically*

      I think this is great! I agree with the other commenters about hobbies, habits, volunteering, etc. It seems like you get some enjoyment out of building a big picture and then achieving the intermediate goals to get you there. So what about some more complex, intersecting goals that combine skill acquisition with service and, say, travel? So, get all the way through DuoLingo’s French program, and meanwhile volunteer with a refugee agency doing conversation practice with some francophone refugees. And then after X amount of time, take some of your saved-up leave and spend a month in France. Or take some advanced or cuisine-specific cooking classes, volunteer to serve meals at a homeless shelter, and then do a trip to Europe or Southeast Asia where you hunt down the best versions of the ingredients you’ve learned to use.

    5. Hilorious*

      Last year, I was in a new city and had a ton of time on my hands, and was really struggling emotionally for a lot of reasons. I set a goal to read a book per week, and I achieved it! On really rough weeks, the fact that I had checked it off my list made a huge difference in my outlook. This year, my challenge is to do home-cooked meal prep.

      Long story short, pick a personal area you want to grow and make it your weekly challenge!

  39. Ariel Before The Mermaid Was Cool*

    *Celebratory post*
    Applied for a reach position, made it through both interview rounds. Was offered and accepted the position.
    Looking forward to:
    1. Shorter commute (1.5 hours 1 way to 35 minutes one way)
    2. Higher pay (35% increase going from public service to private sector) and comparable benefits
    3. Work that is more in line with my long-term career goals

    Major props to Alison and fellow commenters. Everything I’ve learned from the AAM community contributed to securing the position. I start March 27!

    Some may remember my question about disclosing bankruptcy several months ago – that turned out to be a nonissue!

    Now if only we can get the baby over his stomach bug and the dog through his hernia surgery next week, but that’s a post for tomorrow!

    5. INeepANap*

      Yayy!! Congrats. :)

      I also applied for a reach position which would shorten my 1.5 hour commute to an hour, give me much higher pay, and be more aligned both with my career goals and my previous experience in education. I don’t expect to hear back from them any time soon – it’s in higher ed administration and this university either moves incredibly quickly or incredibly slowly – but I am hoping that some of your luck rubs off on me!

      1. Ariel Before The Mermaid Was Cool*

        I am sending good karma your way! I’m actually leaving state government, which is daunting, but I can totally identify with the mind numbing slowness with which the bureaucracy operates.

        That’s one thing that’s really been astonishing to me throughout the hiring process with this position. It was posted early February and I did my application about a week after it posted. Didn’t hear anything for a couple of weeks, and then out of the blue they called and did a phone interview, set up an in person interview for a week later, did second round interview this past Monday and got the offer yesterday. It has blown my mind, to say the least.

    8. Ariel Before The Mermaid Was Cool*

      Thanks all!
      :-)
      I have to admit, now that it’s really starting to sink in, I’m getting a little intimidated by the idea of working with a budget in the 100s of millions of dollars! :O :O

  40. MegaMoose, Esq*

    Networking For Introverts Update: Week Three! Last Friday I emailed another former law school classmate (and former co-clerk) about getting coffee so I could talk to her about trying to find work in her field. When I hadn’t heard back from her on Monday, I emailed the third (of four) classmate in this particular field. Naturally, when he didn’t get back to me within 24 hours either, I decided that the obvious reason was that both of these people thought I was some sort of horrible incompetent and/or jerkwad. Because my brain is mean.

    Naturally, the third classmate got back to me on Wednesday, was very friendly and apologetic about not replying sooner, and we are having coffee next week. *eyeroll at self.* Interestingly, I also randomly heard from an old undergrad friend who asked if I wanted to get involved in a bike/pedestrian safety advocacy group he’s forming, and we’re having coffee on Sunday to talk about it. So that’s interesting.

    I haven’t dove into any of my one-removed contacts yet, but my goal is to email one or two of them on Monday. Posting these updates has been helpful in keeping me motivated, but Friday is a terrible time to get a hold of people, so I think I’m going to draft an email and save it for Monday. I’m both more and less nervous about contacting people I don’t know: on the one hand, since they don’t know me, they definitely can’t have a bad opinion of me already (I know, I know…), but on the other hand, I don’t know them, so they might be mean or think I’m being presumptuous or something (I know!). On the other other hand, I don’t think the classmate I met with last week or my spouse would have given me the names of anyone they didn’t think would be happy to talk to me.

    Week three, here we come!

      1. MegaMoose, Esq*

        Thanks! Now I just wish I could figure out what in my post triggered the moderation filter. ;) With all the IAmNotALlama-ing recently, I wonder if it was the word “law”.

      1. MegaMoose, Esq*

        Thanks! It’s early days still, but I’m really trying to keep things moving. Having something to show every week, even if it’s just sending a couple of emails, is a big goal for me.

  41. Mimmy*

    Would it be appropriate to ask an employer (in this case, state agency) whether they anticipate any impacts resulting from budget and regulatory changes made by the Federal government?

    I’m starting my new job on the 20th, but the position is considered temporary–I think it’s renewed each fiscal year (ours starts every July 1). I’m not aware of any major changes at the state level, but everything going on at the Federal level is making me nervous.

    There is a part of me that wonders if ANY job/career is immune to government changes. I’ve told myself that I would never go into for-profit, but I may have to rethink that. I do have an interest in medical information (writing, transcription, library, etc), so that might be an option.

    (Alison, if you worry that this will turn political, you may delete.)

    1. Murphy*

      Depending on what it is, I think it’s worth asking. My industry is definitely potentially affected by federal funding. In my case, unless anything drastic happens, the first step would be a hiring freeze rather than layoffs, so I think I’m ok. But I would have some concerns if we weren’t actively talking about it.

    2. mamabear*

      In this environment, I think that’s an absolutely fair question. If someone asked that in my workplace (super reliant on federal funds), nobody would be surprised.

      1. CAA*

        But would anybody be able to answer? There’s no draft budget for FY18 out there yet, just a lot of rhetoric.

        1. Lablizard*

          It is worth asking because you can learn how much funding is discretionary and how much is not discretionary under state and federal statute

    3. it happens*

      It wouldn’t harm to ask, understanding that they just don’t know for sure. The Administration has just started to launch trial balloons on cuts (HUD, Coast Guard, FEMA, etc.) but the process has a very long time frame. You might be better asking how much of the unit’s funding is fed dependent.

      1. Mimmy*

        You might be better asking how much of the unit’s funding is fed dependent.

        That’s a good idea, thanks.

  42. Hanna*

    I’m starting a new job this month (yay!), and it will be my first job ever where T-shirts are explicitly prohibited by the dress code. That’s fine, but now I realize that I’m not sure exactly how a T-shirt is defined. Is it any lightweight short-sleeved shirt without buttons? I have a lot of those (I hate long sleeves even in the winter), but most of them just don’t seem like T-shirts to me, either because of the shirt pattern, the hem, or some other factor that I can’t quite put my finger on. I’ve thought about using a practical test instead (namely, “Would I wear this shirt while mowing the lawn? If so, it’s a T-shirt”).

    Am I overthinking this?

    1. (Not A) RetailManager*

      Women have a lot more leeway than men in this situation, for better or for worse. To be totally safe, anything in a jersey material without a collar could be considered a tee shirt. I think you can wear a collarless shirt so long as it is a nicer material or one of those drapey ‘tops’ especially if worn with a dressier bottom and a necklace or scarf.

    3. Allypopx*

      Can you wear something with buttons the first day and take a mental inventory of the kind of clothes others are wearing? Did you notice any short sleeves blouses while you were interviewing? That’s what it sounds like you’re describing to me, a short sleeve blouse vs. a t-shirt, but you can always ask the person training you on your first day if you’re not sure! It’s common for new hires to have dress code questions.

      Congrats!

    4. NaoNao*

      To me, it’s the following:
      Short or long sleeved shirts that are knit, with no collar, that are very plain and functional. They lack “specialness”–no special design, pattern, fabric, trim, etc. They’re usually not fitted.
      *However…Target has seasonal tees that have a v neck and cute little patterns and I’d only wear those to work in a pinch.
      Usually when dress codes forbid tee shirts they mean cotton “logo” tees (Big Johnson’s, Harley Davidson’s, etc) or sheer layering tee shirts worn as tops.

      1. Rincat*

        Agreed, and I think fabric makes the difference. I’ve seen silk “tees” that make very lovely work blouses, but if it’s cotton knit, that’s a t-shirt. So basically go for wovens over knits.

        1. Ultraviolet*

          I agree that it comes down to woven vs knit. But I’d probably avoid short-sleeved woven blouses with no buttons or collar or other obvious non-tee feature during the first few days until you see what’s up.

          I can’t vouch for the “would I wear this to mow the lawn” test in general. I have some “nice” knit short-sleeved shirts that aren’t in the standard “free tee-shirt” material and cut that I wouldn’t wear to do yardwork, but I wouldn’t wear them at a workplace that specifically forbade tee-shirts. Or at least I wouldn’t wear them right away—it’s possible you’ll come to find out they’re totally acceptable.

      2. Lady Julian*

        I just want to say that I wear Target’s seasonal tees to work regularly, with a nice cardigan on top and/or with a skirt, and I love them. I’d be bummed to lose my tees! But I’m a teacher, and I know that I get a pass where others may not.

    5. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      I’d ask, but in my opinion, when in doubt, there’s rarely a doubt. A short-sleeved, uncollared shirt without buttons is probably more a T-shirt than not.

      1. Alli525*

        I think that explanation applies more to men’s clothing than women’s – or at least women’s clothing carries the caveat that such a shirt in a non-cotton material probably ISN’T a t-shirt (or is a t-shirt, but the work-acceptable variety).

        1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          That’s very true, actually, I stand corrected.

      2. Rusty Shackelford*

        But to me, this shirt made from woven fabric rather than knit isn’t a t-shirt at all.

    6. Emi.*

      I only call something a t-shirt if it’s made of jersey. But I subdivide between “nice tees” (the fitted ones made of softer fabric, with v- or scoopnecks), “craft-store tees” (the kind you get at the craft store for printing on, or that say “Maplecrest Turkey Trot 2015” on them), and store-bought graphic tees. I wouldn’t wear the first (or the third, depending on how much I liked it) to mow the lawn, but I’d expect they’re still considered t-shirts.

      I’d either ask someone explicitly, or watch and wait to see if other people wear things like the ones you’re talking about. But until you know, I’d stay away from jersey/knit tops without collars/cuffs/buttons/etc.

    7. Spoonie*

      My dress code specifies the same thing (but polos are specifically mentioned as being acceptable). My criteria is whether or not it’s a t-shirt that I got at a blood drive (or similar) versus a jersey knit shirt that’s a similar material — the first is a no go but the second is acceptable on casual days if I spruce it up appropriately with accessories.

    8. Oscar Madisoy*

      Here’s a suggestion: take a picture of the shirts you have that don’t seem like T-shirts to you, show it to your boss, and ask if those are okay.

      Here’s another suggestion: if it’s not too much trouble on your part, bring a sampling of the shirts under question with you to work one day, show them to your boss, and, again, ask if those are okay.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        And I would carry a sweater or “a safe bet” shirt just in case I guessed wrong.

        I have some very nice tees here. I would actually wear them on the dressy side.

        I think because you want to make a good impression that a useful rule of thumb would be,
        “when in doubt then the answer is no” at least initially. Once you are there you can copy what you see most people doing.

      2. Ask a Manager* Post author

        I wouldn’t bring them in to show your boss — that’s asking for more handholding than is normally done. Photos, same thing probably. Just look at what other people wear.

  43. A Post Jobseeker*

    I’ve been struggling with whether I made the right decision to leave my last position, especially in light of a really nasty tuition clawback provision they had. In short, the workplace was pretty toxic. The culture was bad, the work week was being extended with no end in sight, and upper management really was not sympathetic in the least, even going so far as to tell us we’re lucky to be employed. What’s more is that their pay practices were in violation of FLSA, as we were all exempt but paid by the hour if we worked less than 40 hours or a partial day, and didn’t have enough PTO to make up the remainder of the day. There’s one individual I know that was regularly paid less than her salary because she’d work part days and was out of PTO. But the tuition clawback/repayment is really nasty, and it’s come to light they were playing games with my taxes and referring quite a bit more than they originally said to their bill collector. I don’t really see a good way out of it and am resigned to repaying it (I simply don’t have the resources, especially after this new surprise debt and tax bill, to think about paying a lawyer to look into it further). This is more context for why I was concerned I made the wrong decision.

    There’s a monthly happy hour get together organized by a friend at my old job and I went yesterday to say hello. It really helped reaffirm for me that I made the right decision to move on, even if I have to repay tens of thousands of dollars in tuition costs. When I left the get together I was upset at how people were still treating one another and I felt the culture was still pretty toxic. These were the same exact feelings I had every day after getting back from work there, and which was becoming a strain on my marriage. My wife even said after we left the happy hour, “Did your old boss just spend that much time trying to one-up you about your job?” My new job was a nice raise and has a superb culture, the CEO cares, the company sponsors our happy hours/parties and doesn’t force us to pay our own way, and my boss listens. What’s more, it’s focused on getting the work done, not backstabbing coworkers and belittling/swearing at coworkers like my last job had all too often.

    I want to pass along to others in the same boat with lingering doubts, remember why you left the old job in the first place, even if it hurts! Your gut told you to leave for a reason.

    Also, I’m having a lot of trouble getting a hold of anyone at my local Department of Labor office to report the wages issue. I’ve called a couple times and had no one pick up, and left a message and haven’t received any response or acknowledgement. Has anyone had better luck, and what did you do to actually get in contact with someone?

    1. Anontastic*

      If you are in the US, talk to a lawyer – very likely they work on contingency, meaning you don’t pay out of pocket, instead they get a percentage of any recovery. This is because nobody in your situation could afford a lawyer otherwise.

    2. E*

      It won’t cost anything to report the FLSA violations, and you might get the company fined as well as some restitution for yourself.

      1. A Post Jobseeker*

        The issue is that when I’ve tried to contact my local Department of Labor office, and have been unable to contact anyone. What other venues do I have to contact them? Or a higher level office? I’m not sure.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I have had great luck with emailing or snail mailing government agencies. YMMV, of course, so this is just a thought.

  44. SalaryNegotiations*

    I’m a finalist for a job that I am really interested in. They’re at the stage where they’re checking my references so I may get an offer! (Fingers crossed)

    I’m researching for the salary negotiation part… the salary range listed in the ad was a set range. The job is in a college but isn’t a teaching role. I would like to ask for a salary that’s about $6,000 more than the high end of the range. I can justify why (I have an advanced degree, I have unique experience, and a vast network etc.). As a general rule though is asking for nearly $10k more than the high end of a range unreasonable? Especially for an academic institution?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I think a lot of it depends on the seniority of the position. When I worked on the administrative side of a university, I would have been laughed out of the room with that request. I’m assuming there is a salary band/grade associated with the role that would have been included in the job posting. They likely cannot offer you anything beyond what is disclosed as part of the salary band, and most likely cannot offer you anything beyond the mid-range of that band, as the top of the band is typically for people who have been in the role for quite some time.

    2. INeepANap*

      I’m in temp/entry level positions (two part time ones) trying to make the jump to a lower-end administration position in a large college.

      They post salary bands here as well, and at this university, they’re pretty strict for hires because the salary band is associated with the position band – so moving out of the salary band actually classifies you as a different job. Think Admin I, Admin II, Admin III – each with a different(ish) job description and different salary band.

      Based on what I’ve been told by a mentor helping me with my own career, it’s fine to negotiate to the middle or to the top of your salary band if you have a good reason (education, experience, etc), but that going out of a salary band just wasn’t possible.

      I would think that unless you’re really in the upper levels of administration, $10K outside of the highest end of the salary band would be unreasonable – again at least where I am. I worked at another university before this, and I would say the same for that one too.

      Also, FWIW, at my university if they check your references you’re almost guaranteed an offer. :) So good luck!!

    3. Lia*

      Upper administration (like a dean, provost, C-class OR coaching role)? Then 10K is not unreasonable. Not one of those? If they are a public institution, they more than likely have salary bands and at the ones I’ve been at, going outside of those is very difficult without reclassifying the job.

      You could look for the institution’s employee salaries and see what they have paid people in that role to get a better idea of what they may be willing to pay, as well.

      1. Not a Real Giraffe*

        Yep, agreed! It’s been my experience that private institutions have these same salary band and salary band restrictions, too.

  45. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    So I like my higher paying job now, and there’s better offices (2-4 people share a room with floor to ceiling windows, rather than all people in an open plan with few windows).

    But, my office mates! The office is small, and one of them (two guys) smells kind of bad. Not like “gagging, unable to work near him,” bt enough to be annoying/a little gross. Also, he is older and often asks for computer help. I’m aware how helping everyone and doing gendered tasks can be professionally harmful, so how much should I help?

    Also, do I tell him he smells? I told him the other day that he had a stain on his blazer, and he seemed glad to know and thanked me. But, he travels for work and stays in a hotel during the week, so I know he can’t do laundry then to help the issue.

    And karma decided to make my other office mate…a really religious guy. We’re both being nice, but due to previous antigay experiences with his religious institutions, I feel nervous. Maybe it’s a sign that I should work on myself.

    1. Dang*

      I feel for you about the smells… but I honestly have no idea what I would do in that position!

      For the last part…I can relate. I am queer also and sometimes assume that religious people will be against “my lifestyle.” However, I’ve been pleasantly surprised in many instances. Try to keep an open mind and assume that it won’t be an issue unless you see signs of an issue.

    2. Sadsack*

      I would not tell him he smells! I guess help him when you absolutely know something and it is quick, but not every time. You could instead try to direct him to wherever he can find the info himself. Or just say, “sorry, I am not sure about that.”

    3. Rincat*

      Re: being helpful, for basic computer help I would tell him to google it. Nicely and maybe some google pointers but I think everyone should be able to do that these days instead of relying on coworkers. If it was questions about a specific software you use for your job and you were the most knowledgable, that would be different. But if it’s just how to map a printer or something, that is easily obtained through the magic of the internet. I like to say “There’s some good instructions online if you google it,” and then turn back to my work. If they are insistent, I tell them I’m in the middle of something, or about to start something, or just otherwise busy.

    4. PK*

      Does your company have any sort of basic Helpdesk that you can point him to for computer help?

      I think you are probably stuck with the smells unless they are particularly bad. I’d have a hard time telling a coworker something like that though.

      As for the religious guy, good luck. I struggle in these situations too because of past antigay experiences. It’s difficult but try to remember that they aren’t the people from your past. I still find that I keep a wall up between myself and the religious guy on my team but at least I can work around him now without feeling like I’m on high alert. That was exhausting.

    5. MegaMoose, Esq*

      I’ve never really thought of computer help as gendered, though I get the concern. I don’t think being known as a computer wiz has hurt me, but I’ve had a weird work history so far so I’m not really in a position to say. Does he ask the room in general or you in specific?

      Also, ug with the smell. Can you put a little fan on your desk?

    6. Charlie Q*

      Jolie Kerr (the author of Ask A Clean Person) has recommended the Bad Air Sponge to reduce general odor in a bathroom or kitchen or what have you. I have no idea if it would help the ambient human odor, but if you have somewhere discreet and hidden you can place it, that’s a possibility?

    7. Rosemary*

      Some thoughts on not becoming the men’s ‘assisstant’:

      – Start by asking ‘Have you tried X’ where X is ‘googled the thing’ or other basic step. Don’t even go over next the computer, ask him ‘have you tried X and what were the results’ as if OF COURSE he’s already done that
      – If helping other people is starting to take over your time, start saying ‘Sure, but I have to finish this thing, I’ll be free to help in 30 min / 1 hour /etc’. If your help comes with a cost, they might figure it out themselves
      – I don’t know if you have daily ‘what got done yesterday, what’s on today’s plate’ meetings with your boss, but if you do, make a habit of mentioning that you helped X with Y, particularly if it took some time. The dude might not remember/think to mention all the help you’re giving him, so you need to make sure you’re tooting your own horn

      ….I don’t think I have any advice on the smell or the religious issue, but I hope the other commentators help you with those!

    8. JustaTech*

      About the smell: first, is it bad enough for you to be willing to have an incredibly awkward conversation? Alison’s had a few letters about people who smell (I think there was a post in last week’s open thread too) to give you some ideas.
      If it is bad enough I would start by trying to figure out what it is. BO? Washing his clothes in vinegar? Hair product? His food? Pet smells? What it is will impact how you approach it. “Your clothes smell like vinegar” is a lot easier to say than “Bob, your body odor is kind of strong.” And if it’s a cultural thing (food, some hair care products) you might just want to let it go.

      Hopefully you’ll be pleasantly surprised by the religious person. My coworker is very serious about her religion but aside for inviting me to a service once (I politely declined as an atheist) she’s been totally normal about it.

      1. JustaTech*

        I guess I should note that I’m not a people person or good at small talk but for some reason am always the person to have that uncomfortable conversation, whether it’s explaining the birds and the bees to a college roommate or telling my much older coworker his pants were unzipped.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      I would not tell him he smells, if it were my new job. My theory is if I can find ways to cope then I should just cope because I’m the new person.

      Treat his computer questions as a separate issue. My habit is to hand out fishing poles not fish. Tell him that you will be happy to show him how he can find many of his own answers. Of course, if he is really stuck you could help.

      The religious person. I am assuming he is in a Christian denomination? If yes, then I think your best card is to say, “And Jesus said ABOVE ALL ELSE love each other.” Tell him the best thing you both can do for each other is to put this discussion to one side permanently in recognition that you both need a job in order to eat and pay bills. You both have that in common and can respect each other for that reason.

  46. (Not A) RetailManager*

    I am the benefits administrator/office manager for a mid-size tech company. Our CEO’s administrative assistant is leaving and I am picking up her duties until a replacement is found. I have no desire to be an EA, but don’t mind picking up the slack for a few weeks as needed. As this is in addition to my regular duties, should I ask for a small bonus for this work if it lasts more than a few weeks? I am a non-exempt employee, so any overtime will be paid, but I don’t want the company to overlook my contributions.

    For perspective, I have done this sort of picking up the slack in my previous positions for months at a time, but received no extra compensation. In fact I was dinged on a review for a dip in my ‘energy’! I just don’t want to be taken advantage of.

    1. Sabrina the Teenage Witch*

      Is there something in your job description that reads “other duties as assigned”? If so, they can generally ask you to do anything without additional compensation. You are getting overtime pay so you could look at that as a bonus.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      An extra bonus is probably not going to give you extra energy.

      It might be more to the point to make a plan with your boss at the few weeks mark as to how to lower your work load. You could explain to him that you know you are running out of steam because of the increased work and you do not want it reflected on your eval.

  47. Not Using My Usual Handle for This One, Because I Fear the Rumor Mill*

    I have two questions about references:

    One, I’ve been job hunting for a little less than a year. Early in the process, I was not sufficiently discreet, the rumour mills started churning, and everything blew up in my face; I nearly got fired. Since then, I’ve been terribly discreet; nobody knows that I’m still job hunting. However, I’m not sure what to do about references! I’m a teacher at a tiny (think faculty of 30) community college, and currently my only reference from my current position is a coworker who left last year (so he’s safe). We taught a course together two years ago, so he can speak to my qualifications, but he’s suggested that I should have other references too. I’m not sure who else to ask to be a reference, without starting the rumor mill at my workplace up again. It’s worth noting that I’m a department of one; nobody else at my college teaches the subject that I teach, making it hard for people to speak to my abilities.

    So here’s Question #1: Any other ideas on who to ask for references?

    Two, my college is not doing well financially. In the event that we shutter, what happens? Should I get current coworkers (after the fact) to actually *write* letters of recommendation, for me to use five, ten, fifteen years down the road?

    Question #2: How does the closing of one’s workplace affect the reference situation?

    1. SophieChotek*

      I cannot offer you much advice, but generally when businesses might close, I believe people have suggested ensuring you keep copies of all employment documentation (pay stubs, offer letters, etc., etc.) in case employmentt cannot be verified at a later date. In Higher Ed with CVs, etc., it might be a bit different than the pizza place that closed down, but it wouldn’t hurt to have documenttaiton anyway.

      Regarding other references — I’m assuming you haven’t taught elsewhere…like community ed class or something like that? Or if you are a dept. of one are you in touch with colleagues in your discipline? Could they at least speak of you/about your scholarship ability/keep current with the field/collaborating with them sort of thing?

    2. CAA*

      Q2: I am not in academia, and I do understand things are different there, but I would find it pretty weird to get written letters of recommendation from a candidate.

      Whether or not the previous employer still exists has no impact at all on references. You need references from people who know your work. Where they are working when they give the reference is not relevant at all. The way to find them when you need them in the future is to connect now on social media, preferably LinkedIn.

    3. dear liza dear liza*

      Q #1: Have you been professionally active? It’s pretty common to have other scholars in your field, from other institutions, be your references.

      Q #2: Letters are very common in academia. A lot of people use Interfolio (looks like they now have a separate product, Dossier), which houses the letters for you.

  48. Ninety-nine problems (and 98 are anxiety-driven)*

    I have the luxury of weighing two offers right now. One is 20 minutes from home and $XX/year. The other is 60 minutes from home but is $XX+$10k. The higher paying one is a public position, so it’s government benefits and retirement plan. The other will pay for my kids to go to college (I have one in college now and four more to go).

    While I realize this is a wonderful problem to have, it’s difficult too. The benefits of each are so different that it’s tough to compare them to each other.

    1. KatieKate*

      With just this information I’d go for job 1. Knocking college expenses out would be such a relief, as is the 20 min commute.

    2. Nan*

      I’d go with 1. 40 minutes further from home is 80 minutes a day. Times 5 days a week times 52 weeks in a year. That’s 20,800 hours in the car, assuming the weather is good. Divided by $10K, you’re getting paid $2.08 an hour to sit in the car. It costs me more than $2.08 an hour to run my car, at current gas prices.

      Someone check my math, but I think it’s right.

      1. LawCat*

        Math a little off… it’s almost 347 hours in a car (20,800 minutes). Point though is extremely well taken. It’s about $29/hour ($10k/347). But it’s also 43 working days assuming an 8 hour work day (347/8).

        Are 347 hours of your life worth $10k? An additional 43 “work days” per year?

        (Though… someone also check my math since not a math wiz).

    3. jm*

      We have learned a lot from Dave Ramsey, and he always says to fund your retirement before concerning yourself with your kids’ college funds. Now, he is giving this advice from the lens of someone who has younger children and earlier in their career, with very little put away for retirement.

      So if I were you, I’d evaluate how much I have socked away for retirement. If it’s a very comfortable sum, I’d choose the job where the kids’ college is covered, IF they actually want to attend that school (assuming it’s free tuition to one particular university system — if it’s free tuition to any college or university, then yay).

      If you don’t have much saved for retirement, I’d take the government job with the great benefits, and tell the kids to call Sallie Mae and start researching scholarships.

      1. Lemon Zinger*

        Good point. Please don’t assume your children want to go to that school. I work at a university and it saddens me when my coworkers’ children are forced to attend against their wishes.

      2. Ninety-nine problems (and 98 are anxiety-driven)*

        The school would allow my kids to attend free of charge or pay a portion of their tuition rate to another school. It’s a small liberal arts school and tuition is high, so the stipend would go far at other schools.

        1. PollyQ*

          For 4 kids, that could work out to saving your family, if not you directly, hundreds of thousands of dollars. I’m not at all in your shoes, but I’d be hard-pressed not to jump at that one.

        2. Rusty Shackelford*

          If that means you can put money into retirement that you would have spent on college instead, it could be a moot point.

      3. Natalie*

        You probably also want to check how the vesting works for the retirement plan – at least one friend of mine that works for the state is enrolled in their very nice pension program, but he won’t be fully vested until he’s worked there for 20 years IIRC. So just make sure that their timeline and your timeline are in accordance.

    4. LisaLee*

      Go for #1. I think the college benefits will turn out to be a lot more valuable than the 10k, and gaining 80-100 minutes a day is great. I would also be concerned about the stability of the public position given current funding shake-ups.

    5. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

      I would lean toward Offer #1 that would cover college expenses. As the others have stated, it would likely save you and your kids hundreds of thousands of dollars in student loans and other expenses. You don’t want your kids having to take crappy jobs just to pay student loans.

      Also, as a State Public Employee, retirement/pensions are NOT what they are cracked up to be. I am at the whim of the politicians. They control the accounts and investment fund that my pension is in. If they mess it up (again!), they can just pass a law changing my pension. My husband and I have made the decision to view the pension as a nice bonus in retirement should it actually come through, but we do our primary retirement investing outside of the system. This is not a worse-case scenario; it is a known situation that has happened in almost every single state.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      It’s not 10k though. It’s 10k lesss taxes. Less costs of two hours commute time each day. You actually might end up making less at job 2 when you look at increases in car maintenance, increased insurance and all the things you hire out because you have less time.

      Government retirement plans can be rendered useless at any point.

      My suggestion is not to compare benefits but to compare outcomes. What happens if you take job 1? What happens if you take job 2?

    7. Tabby Baltimore*

      As part of your decision process, I’d like to ask you to consider taking a good hard look at the jobs placement rate for the school for graduating seniors. Even if your kids all attend for free, what good will it do them if they can’t *easily* get post-graduation full-time employment with medical benefits?

  49. Anon Attorney*

    I graduated from law school three years ago. I worked for two years between law school and undergrad. Have I reached a point where I can use a two page resume or should I stick to one page?

    I currently practice immigration law and my other post grad jobs have been contract health law positions. Unfortunately I got laid off from my first post grad position, a government contractor position, due to massive restructuring, so I have a resume gap. I am working on an application for an education law position, which is the field I wanted to work in when I started law school and had relevant internships during law school. If I should limit myself to a 1 page resume, do you think it’s better to leave on the immigration clinic I did in law school, which is my only judicial hearing experience, or a microfinance position I had before law school? Taking off the microfinance position would create another gap. I also served in AmeriCorps before law school.

    Thanks for your help!

    1. Lillian Styx*

      I’ve read a good amount of recent law grad resumes in the last year. I would suggest giving pre- and during-law-school experience a single line, each. That will solve the gap problem and leave room for more recent/relevant experience. If you have relevant accomplishments to highlight from those jobs you can explain it in the cover letter.

      I wouldn’t dismiss a two-pager at your level but I might be annoyed if there was a lot of stuff in there not totally relevant to the position I’m hiring for.

    2. Graciosa*

      One page only.

      A good rule of thumb is a *decade* of significant experience in your then-current profession before you shift to a second page.

      Highlight your accomplishments as needed to ensure that you present the strongest possible case for yourself. Consolidate everything else as needed in order to leave room for this. It’s possible to put in a number of jobs in only a line or two to avoid inexplicable time gaps (“Also employed at Irrelevant Company [Start]-[Finish], WhyMentionIt Ltd. [Start]-[Finish], HS SummerJob Summers [YearStart]-[YearFinish]”), although sometimes it works just as well to list all the jobs and minimize the space spent on less relevant ones.

      This is an exercise in demonstrating your editing skills.

      I am a lawyer and hire lawyers. I don’t want to hire one who lacks the ability to 1) identify the most relevant information to present in a limited amount of space and 2) communicate the key points effectively. Use this opportunity to show that you possess those skills.

      Good luck.

    3. Anon Attorney*

      Thanks. I figured I was still in 1 page land, but had recently applied for a couple more policy focused positions. People in that industry had told me to go with 2 page more detailed resumes.

    4. Director of Things*

      Currently in the middle of hiring one entry-ish level and one supervisor role. Nearly every resume has been more than 1 page! Personally, I only balk at this when the person has almost no professional experience. If you just graduated with a BA and spend 2 pages on your grocery clerk and fast food jobs, that’s annoying. For someone with relevant experience, even if it’s less than 10 years, I’m happy to skim 2 pages.

  50. New Window*

    Mini-rant: I hate our bathrooms at work.

    There are huge, 1/2″ gaps between either side of the doors in the stalls. You can see straight into the stalls when the door is closed, and the way the bathroom is set up, the gaps are in the direct line of sight when you walk in. The sink, and therefore the mirror, are angled across from the stalls; no matter where a person stands, a coworker can easily tell where you are in the process of going about answering nature’s call.

    The toilets themselves are disgusting, too. Oh, they’re cleaned daily. But when the toilets flush, half the time bits of used toilet water are splashed out of the basin by the force of the water. This usually splashes back on the toilet seat, or even worse, onto the hapless person in the stall. And it’s an automatic system, so you can’t push the lever and run. Oh no. You’re caught getting pee-water (or worse) on you as you try to get your pants up in time, backing into the corner of the stall. And meanwhile your coworker is at the sink witnessing the whole incident.

    I used to work in a place where the stalls had no gaps, and the walls even went all the way to the floor. Also, where the toilet didn’t splash you with E. coli water. Ah, those were the days.

    1. Elizabeth West*

      Yuck. Gaps are awful.

      That’s one thing I loved about loos in the UK–those walls that go all the way down. So if there’s no hook on the door and I’m balancing my purse on my feet, no one can grab it from under. And I can’t accidentally drop a roll of paper and helplessly watch it roll away. LOL

    2. Nanc*

      Have you reported the aggressive flushing to facilities? It’s entirely possible they’re not aware of the problem, especially if the cleaning crew is not part of their department. I’m old and remember when auto-flush toilets were first installed in my workplace they required quite a bit of tinkering so they merely flushed as opposed to being dancing e-coli-laden fountains! Seriously, I volunteered to stand outside stalls and watch the flush process as the plumber tinkered away–it was pretty hilarious to code that on my time sheet (I worked for a municipality at that time) as the code for Other Duties required a full description of exactly what you did those hours.

    3. Tris Prior*

      Auto-flush toilets are the woooooooorst. Ours always flush before I am, ahem, finished. I shudder to think what’s splashing onto me.

      I guess I should be grateful that at least no one can see into our stalls?

    4. Arjay*

      Our gaps don’t sound as significant as yours, but we still have people who will hang a long strip of toilet paper down from the top hinge to cover the gap. It won’t work as well on the latch side of the door that you have to open and close, but it might help some.

    5. Rusty Shackelford*

      I know of a restroom that has those large gaps, and someone taped a ribbon so it falls over the gap, and yet moves so you can easily open/close the door.

      Also, if you bring a post-it note and stick it over the sensor, the toilet won’t flush until you remove the note.

  51. Manders*

    People in high cost 0f living areas: how does your company handle cost of living adjustments? I haven’t had a performance review or a salary bump in over a year, but I live in Seattle, and rent is getting absolutely unbelievable. My managers have owned their own houses for a while, and I think they don’t realize how hard it’s getting out there for renters.

    I’ve received merit raises in the past at this company and at other companies, but I’ve never been given something that I was told was a cost of living adjustment. I’ve seen lots of people on here complaining about not getting cost of living adjustments. Is this supposed to be a standard yearly thing? Is it a bad sign that no one in my company has even mentioned considering a cost of living adjustment?

    2. PK*

      I lived in Seattle years ago and I imagine the rent is even more atrocious now. I never received any sort of COL adjustment in the time that I worked there though. Just regular yearly merits.

      I miss the city but don’t miss those rent costs! Good luck!

    3. Anon this time.*

      I was so about to ask this… I live in Denver. Same situation as Seattle. I really want senior management to understand that these requests are out of NECESSITY.

      1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        As a fellow Denverite I’d agree, rents are insane. If you’ve been in the same place for three or four years, your rent has probably gone up 20-30%.

        That said, there’s a politics to how one approaches this. Don’t be like a guy who worked for me last year who relocated to Denver after we hired him, rented a sweet apartment in a new building in RiNo, bought a car, and then came to me asking for a COL adjustment because “Denver is so much more expensive than St. Louis!”

        1. CaliCali*

          Hey fellow Denverites! I do actually get a COL increase yearly. It’s nice when it’s actually accounted for rather than something demanded (and our economy here has contributed to insane rents for sure).

          Of course, I’m originally from the SF Bay Area (where COL increases weren’t part of my job), so my entire perception is skewed. I still think it’s dirt cheap here.

    4. Allypopx*

      We do annual COL adjustments. They’re not much but they help. (Boston).
      Can you get COL data and present it to senior management? Maybe as a group? It might just be something that needs to be brought to the table in a thoughtful and organized way.

      1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        I’m not sure that I’d agree that a group presentation would be appropriate.

        1. Allypopx*

          It depends on the context. If OP is one of the only renters, then yeah it’s a solo issue. But if it’s impacting a lot of employees then that’s a problem with pay structure, not an individual request for a raise, and may hold more weight if it can be established that it is a concern of several different employees. That would need to happen without individual salaries being brought into the conversation, but it’s really a policy discussion.

          1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

            Sorry, I meant to write “would necessarily be appropriate.” But yeah, bringing individual salaries into the conversation is what I had in mind.

          2. Manders*

            There are other people in the office struggling with the housing crisis, but everyone seems to have a slightly different living situation. Some are still living with their parents because they can’t afford rent, some are living in group houses, some have partners who pay part of the rent, some have kids to look after. I think it might help if each of us mentioned it individually to the boss, but our situations are different enough that it would be hard to present our issues in a group.

            Also, most of the other staff in the office get extra income from a bonus program that I can’t participate in. So their base pay isn’t really their total income.

            1. Allypopx*

              Then yeah I’d say if everyone brings it up individually they’ll get the idea, but I’d make sure everyone uses the keywords “cost of living” so they ping that it’s a connected issue.

    5. Nan*

      HaHaHa!!!! I’m in Chicagoland, which isn’t cheap, and have never, never, never had a COL increase. In fact, industry standard for us is a 1.5% annual raise. That doesn’t cover an extra roll of toliet paper!!! Our increases are performance based on a 1-5 scale. If you get a 3, which is meets expectations, you get 1.5%. Generally our “performance” increases top out at about 3%. but I’ve been (and seen other people) able to wrangle a bit more.

      Not performing or scoring a 2.99999999999? No raise for you.

      Our performance increase just about covers a COL increase, but not really when the price of insurance goes up as well.

      On the other hand, our base pay is good, and those eligible for commission, make good commission.

    6. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      So no, it’s not a standard yearly thing, except if you’re a Federal employee. Employers can offer them or not. I’ve never received a COL adjustment, because our margins are tiny. It’s generally good business sense to offer them, because it helps retain good employees in hot and volatile housing markets, but it’s hardly a bad sign that nobody has mentioned it.

      I think you’re entirely within your rights to request a COL adjustment, if you can document how Seattle’s COL has changed since your last performance raise and request a commensurate adjustment. I would not request a specific dollar amount or the amount your rent has changed.

    7. CAA*

      It’s extremely rare for a company to do an across the board COL adjustment separate from merit increases. Sometimes union members or government employees get them instead of merit increases, but I would never expect one, nor have I ever seen one in thirty-two years of private sector employment.

      In my experience, the way raises are typically handled is the company allocates a pool of money for increases and the manager is responsible for allocating it across her staff. Often this pool is a percentage of last year’s salary expenses for the department. In recent years the increase pools I’ve seen have been in the 2% to 3% range. Sometimes the manager is given rules that tie salary increases to performance ratings, so a “needs improvement” gets 0%, while a “star performer” gets 4% and others get lesser amounts, and the manager is responsible for making sure the total awarded matches the amount she was given.

      In rare cases, when the job market is tight (and it seems like we’re getting closer to that as unemployment is nearing all-time lows in some areas), then companies will also do “market adjustments” for certain highly skilled jobs. In this case they raise all the salaries for all software engineers to prevent the situation of hiring in a new person and having to pay them a more than they’re paying someone who’s been there 5 years. Sometimes these types of adjustments can also be applied to individuals when there’s an inequity that’s built up over time for other reasons.

    8. krysb*

      I wrote a report in favor of changing the cap out amounts for my employees. I used industry-specific pay, local job market pay, future trends, inflation, and COL, and some other arguments. For the COL argument, I used MIT’s calculator, even though it is out-of-date (2014), it gives a great breakdown of costs for individuals and families. Here is the base site’s link: http://livingwage.mit.edu/. Also remember for your argument, that many think that rental/mortgage costs should not exceed 30% of your income (even though we all know it probably does).

      1. Manders*

        Alas, it’s not accurate anymore for my area–the last few years have been a period of explosive growth, so these typical expenses are really far off for 2017 in my area. But I’ll look around and see if I can find some up-to-date numbers.

        My rent actually is under 30% of my income right now, but only because I split the cost of a not-technically-legal 1 bedroom with my partner. Now we’re trying to buy a place, and suddenly COL is a very big deal for both of us. My partner’s employers give everyone periodic across-the-board salary adjustments.

        1. krysb*

          I looked up my area after sending this, and it says our COL has decreased since last year, which is definitely untrue. I live in Nashville, and costs, especially rents and home prices, have been rising a lot in the past couple of years, and will continue to do so.

          1. Manders*

            Hey, I grew up in Nashville! That city is changing very fast, it looks different every time I go back to visit my parents. It’s also such a huge city in square mileage that I’m not sure if a single figure would even be accurate. Commuting is REALLY expensive there.

    9. Kj*

      I live in a high COL area. My company ONLY does COL raises unless you get a promotion or similar. No yearly merit based anything. Everyone gets the same COL adjustments, then you get a raise if you are promoted. It is about 1-3% a year. Not enough to keep up with rent increases in booming major metro areas really.

      I’d assume if you get merit based raises, that includes COL adjustments- like, everyone is getting a small bump, then other folks get a larger bump based on merit. But I’m not sure.

      I work at non-profit for what it is worth.

    10. LCL*

      Cost of living allowances, usually abbreviated as COLA, are more common in union environments. The basic idea is everyone gets one because the cost of living has increased. They are not considered raises/wage increases, for the purpose of negotiations.

      Contract language will state what the COLA is. Some use a flat rate. It is common practice to base it on some percent of the consumer price index, CPI, which is calculated by the federal government.

  52. Lillian Styx*

    So my org’s ED is resigning, but gave a long notice period and we’re working on the search for her replacement. One of the other directors is gunning for the position and I know that it’s extremely likely the board will offer it to him because they are so hands-off it’s laughable. It would be an easy transition for sure but he is NOT the right person for the role. I have spoken to the board about my thoughts on the matter and so have other staff but I’m afraid they will still go with the easiest choice just so they don’t have to deal with all the work that’s likely to go into hiring and training an outside person.

    I’m torn. I feel like I will want to leave regardless of who they choose. The director gunning for the position is a great guy, but terribly unsuited for the ED position and I don’t think I could stand working under him again (he was my direct boss in another position I had within the org). But the prospect of job searching is also very unpleasant. I’ve been here for 7 years and I’ve loved it but I don’t think I would want a similar position elsewhere. I would want to rethink my career trajectory entirely and even the IDEA of sitting down and giving it serious thought is so exhausting I cry.

    Wahh thanks for reading my whining. I’d be glad for commiseration or insight :)

    1. PK*

      Don’t really have any insight beyond understanding the exhaustion and frustration that comes with changing career paths. Maybe give it a try with the new ED while also researching some of the smaller steps for moving just in case it doesn’t work out? Good luck!

  53. NW Mossy*

    I’ve got internal interviews coming up next week for a lateral move, and I’m struggling to come with ideas for questions to ask! Alison’s “magic question” is obviously on my list, but in this situation, I already know the answers to most of the questions one would normally ask and would love suggestions.

    Backstory: I manage Team X and the job would be managing Team Y. Team Y’s a little bigger (12, vs. 7 for X), and it also gives me a chance to go back to a unit that I worked in before and really liked. X and Y are staffed similarly – lots of seasoned pros with deep expertise, with just a couple of more junior folks. Both X and Y have a mix of co-located and remote employees.

    My interviewers are as follows – A & B will interview me in one session, and C & D in the other.

    Co-Director A/Hiring Manager – My former boss, who reached out to me before this job was posted to encourage me to apply and give me the rundown. She’s among my favorite bosses of all time and we work really well together, which is a big part of why I’m applying to work for her again.

    Co-Director B – She partners with A, but doesn’t manage this particular position. I know her a little bit and we get along well, but we haven’t worked closely on anything together in many years.

    Director C – She heads up another unit and has interviewed me many times before for different internal moves, although never into her area (which is not to say that I wouldn’t work for her; it just hasn’t come up). One of my current team’s primary responsibilities is to provide deliverables for her customer-facing group, so I work closely with her and the managers under her.

    Manager D – She’s been at the company a long time and often helps out with interviews. D and I have been working together on a couple of important projects for the last 18 months, and it’s been very productive and positive on both sides. We talk just about daily.

    Basically, I’m at a bit of an impasse because it seems like there’s not a whole lot I can ask this group without it coming off as stilted or weird given our long history of working together. Anyone have any experience with this that came up with a good solution?

    1. TCO*

      I don’t think you need to ask questions if there’s really nothing to ask. You could even say, “I’d usually have questions about how success is measured, how this role fits into the larger structure, or XYZ (whatever topics you’d usually ask about to appear really thoughtful), but I already understand this role deeply and feel confident that it’s a great fit.” That turns your lack of questions into an asset by showing how easily you could transition in.

    2. CAA*

      You don’t absolutely have to ask questions when you already know what the answers would be, and especially when your interviewers already know you know the answers. If they ask whether you have questions, it’s ok to say something like “I think I have a pretty good handle on what the job duties are and how the team interacts, so no other questions are coming to mind.” If anything does come up in during the interviews, make a quick note so you don’t forget to ask it later.

      Alternatively, you can ask about things you might not know, such as plans for hiring any new people onto the team; opportunities to travel or participate in conferences, trade shows, recruiting events; if there are any personnel issues within the new team; if anyone on the existing team also applied for this position.

    3. Woodsman*

      Certain questions always worth asking imo:

      What is your primary goal for the next year and what challenges do you see in achieving it?

      Are there any additional concerns about my canidacy I can address at this time?

      Other questions you may or may not already know answers to: do you foresee this team growing? Are there any personalities on the team that previous managers have struggled with? How long have most of the team been in this group? Etc.

  54. Dang*

    On a scale of 1-10, how sketchy would it look to use a privacy screen on my monitor?

    I’m in an office, but my screen faces the hall. There’s not really a way to reconfigure the desk. I’m not hiding anything, just hate feeling people look at my screen as they walk by.

    1. PK*

      For me, I’d say a 2. I worked in a company that used privacy screens pretty regularly for folks that dealt with financial information though so I wouldn’t think twice about it.

    2. Dee-Nice*

      I don’t think this is sketchy at all, particularly if you handle other people’s information. Or even if it just annoys the hell out of you to have people checking out your screen. I know it annoys me when that happens.

    3. Damn it, Hardison!*

      No one would think twice about it at my company, even if you don’t work with sensitive information.

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      I personally don’t find it sketchy, but I know some people I work with would. Can you get one that doubles as a shield against glare and tell people that’s its purpose?

      1. Thlayli*

        Yeah Anti-glare screens block people from seeing your screen so if there is any excuse for one (window, nearby lighting) get one of them.

    5. K.*

      I had a coworker who sat in a high-traffic area and her boss was the one to suggest a privacy screen. Coworker didn’t deal with sensitive information. I wouldn’t think twice about it.

    6. Woodsman*

      A warnung if you use dual monitors. Privacy screens make it challenging to use both screens simultaneously.

  55. PK*

    So, quick question. I know that actual letters of recommendation aren’t that great in place of contactable references when job hunting. Does the same hold true for an elected official? I work in government supporting a number of elected officials. One of them has offered to write me a letter of recommendation should I ever need it. He’s way too busy to serve as a regular reference contact though.

    I’m guessing it likely falls in the same category when it comes to recommendation letters but thought I’d ask whether it would carry more weight in this situation. Thoughts?

    1. Amber Rose*

      It can’t hurt, after all. I’d still have a bunch of backup references, but it might give you a small boost.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Take him up on his offer. His explanation makes perfect sense. And since this is all he is going to offer you then you kind of should take it. You can figure out later whether to use it or not.

  56. Brogrammer*

    Here’s a light and fun question for the HR folks here. So, I know there’s a lot of overlap between this column and Dear Prudence. I’m a little behind on DP but I’ve been binging the archives and it’s clear that “Miss Samoa” is now a meme to the Prudietariat. But I read the letter, and, well, I can’t help but think everyone missed the point.

    I’m not in HR, so I’m interested to hear the thoughts of those who are, but it just seemed to me like both Prudie and the comments section just sort of missed the point. Everyone got so focused on whether the “Miss Samoa” comment was racist or not that nobody seemed to notice that it’s really weird that the LW would be the subject of a formal HR investigation for a single comment. The combination of a formal investigation and the harassed employee being granted stress leave suggests to my totally uneducated opinion that the “Miss Samoa” incident was just the last of many incidents documented by the employee before she went to HR to file a harassment complaint.

    I realize not every HR department is made up of AAM readers, but surely even an incompetent HR department wouldn’t want to make more work for themselves when it wasn’t necessary…?

    1. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

      I remember that letter and also thought there was more to the story than what we heard. It is an extreme reaction to a single incident, but there had to be more.

    2. Ann O.*

      I know exactly what you’re talking about and yes, I had the same thought. It seemed very odd that an HR department that had stress leave and formal reviews also would go straight to that for a single incident.

  57. Amber Rose*

    When I took this job, it was billed as “we don’t really know, we just need someone to organize stuff for the salesmen and maybe make some processes more efficient. Help answer phones. That kind of thing.” It quickly become obvious that wasn’t enough work to do full time so I was also given duties on the safety committee and the responsibility of all the incoming small sales orders. On my own, I picked up responsibility for the website and the social media accounts. I was asked to be in charge of sending out invoices. I started doing registration packets. And I was given accounts receivables. Now I’m running the safety department, which moderately increased my workload. My days are fairly busy.

    Guys, I am so terrible at accounts receivables. It sets off my anxiety really badly. I get caught up in my billion other tasks and forget to follow up on things. It takes half a day just to go through it initially, which I frequently don’t have. And for about a month over Christmas, I don’t have access to the reports. So we have a bunch of stuff that’s really, really overdue and I’m getting chewed out about it constantly. And I feel bad because I want to be good at my job. But bluntly, I HATE this task. It makes me sick from stress. I’ve tried so hard to improve but I just… can’t.

    And I feel resentful about it. If I’d known this would be part of the job, I never would have taken the job in the first place, because it doesn’t make sense to me to do tasks that, no matter how hard I try, just aren’t in my ability. I sold myself on being good at paperwork, which I am. I’m tired of people being mad at me all the time. I have no idea what to do about this. I’ve mentioned this stuff before but the response was more or less “well, nobody else has time. Suck it up.”

    I feel like the office scapegoat. Anything that goes wrong is my fault. It sucks. And now I’m out of the office for two to three weeks to audit another company (as part of this job, it’s a peer auditing system). Watch me get chewed out for not getting anything done while I’m not here.

    1. T3k*

      Can you start looking for another job? If the job duties changed drastically from what was originally sold to you, that’s a pretty valid excuse for most companies. And sorry about the sucky situation and I hope you find something better.

    2. Natalie*

      So, it’s totally understandable that you don’t like doing A/R – IMO it takes a particular kind of personality plus a little experience to feel comfortable calling people up and finding out where your money is.

      But it sounds like A/R isn’t the only issue. “Chewed out” can mean different things to different people, but if you’re talking about an extremely negative reaction like yelling or something that sounds like a bad workplace. In which case your best option is probably to move on to somewhere else. :/

    3. Oscar Madisoy*

      “Watch me get chewed out for not getting anything done while I’m not here.”

      And just how do those who are chewing you out expect you do get anything done there, when AS PART OF YOUR JOB you’re required to be away from the premises?

      Jeez.

  58. Godzilla the Kitty*

    I had a slightly odd interview experience recently! Partway through my interview, 2 of the 3 interviewers started asking me questions like:

    “What advice did your parents give you for interviews?”

    “What do your parents do?” + “How many of you are there in the family?” + follow-up questions about my family

    “You know this job doesn’t pay well, you don’t earn a lot of money in this industry [the arts], are your parents worried about that?” – My reply to this was followed by a jokey remark from one interviewer to another, “it’s ok, her parents will give her pocket money.” – which is SUPER insulting, btw

    I answered politely and professionally, but was there some kind of hidden purpose to these questions? Did they just not take me seriously or something? (This was for an entry level job and 1) I’m a fresh grad, but a little older than some of the other candidates would be 2) I have a good amount of experience in this field, which they remarked on at the start of the interview)

    (I’m female and an ethnic minority; the interviewers were all female and from the majority ethnic group in my country.) Maybe there’s also the possibility of them writing me off from the start (due to race, or already having a preferred candidate, or something else, who knows) & choosing to waste ~1/3 of the 20min interview with odd & irrelevant questions? I’ve interviewed here in Singapore and in the UK, and even for my first post-A-level internship as a 19-year-old, nobody’s ever asked me about my parents in an interview.

    I’m not overly bothered though, because I got a job offer elsewhere and I start my first post-uni job on Tuesday!

    2. Allypopx*

      That would have pushed enough buttons with me that I probably would have said something, particularly because at that point I would have been completely soured on getting the job anyway. Not at all normal or appropriate.

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      So glad you are not going to work there! Those people are lunatics. What they said to you was totally unprofessional and out of line.

    4. NaoNao*

      The only thing I can think of is that if the job is a historically poorly paid but “glam” job like ED to a fashion editor, they’re poking around trying to:
      a) make sure you won’t quit the minute something better-paying comes around
      b) see if they’ll be able to make use of your family connections in the field

      Many jobs in the arts are very family and clique focused, so perhaps that’s it?

      …but yeah, not cool!

    6. Thlayli*

      I don’t know much about the ethnic makeup of Singapore but is it possible that in the interviewers ethnicity/culture it is common for women to live with their parents and hand up money at home and also do what their parents tell them until they get married? I think that’s a fairly common thing in some parts of Asia that women are basically treated like teenage girls until they get married. No idea if that’s a thing in Singapore but if it is they may have experienced a lot of young women taking the job and then leaving as soon as their parents realise it’s not well paid enough, so they are just trying to avoid that happening again by finding out about your family circumstances in advance. Like if you are the eldest of five you would be under pressure to bring home money to help with the younger kids sort of thing.

      In most western countries that line of questioning would be really offensive but it’s possible that it wouldn’t be considered offensive in other countries. It would really annoy me though.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      They have absolutely no clue how to hire people. NONE. It’s not a hidden agenda it’s blatant cluelessness.

  59. Very Anon*

    There is an absolutely insane situation happening in my department right now that for legal reasons I can’t get into the details of but the gist is that after a year of alarming but unprovable behavior a coworker was finally let go earlier this year, and said coworker has recently begun trying to sabotage the company from the outside using anonymous internet accounts. Department managers know it is this employee but it can’t be proved so legally none of us can do anything about it and since we’re a small department in a huge company it’s not being taken all that seriously despite being really frightening to the people involved. I’m very grateful not to be a manager right now!

    1. Emotionally Neutral Grad*

      Does your IT department have an insider threat plan? If not, it needs one right now. Tools for documenting suspicious activity are available and are very good, but that means the company would have to be willing to use them in this case.

    2. Manders*

      Yikes!

      Do you have a digital marketing team? If your ex-coworker isn’t very tech-savvy, it should be possible (though annoying) to fix this.

      1. Manders*

        Oops, my brain immediately went to anonymous vents on blogs and review sites, which most marketing teams are trained to handle. If it’s an IT problem, then double yikes.

        1. Very Anon*

          Can’t get into details but the person is using a variety of methods to try to make our company and particular employees look bad. IT is allegedly investigating but from what I’ve heard they’re not really prioritizing it.

  60. Adam Bednarek*

    I’ve got a couple questions hopefully I can get some help with.

    First, I am currently a contractor hired through a contract house and have been for about 7 months. If I am brought on direct (as is, theoretically, the current plan), does that reset the clock for my FMLA eligibility (as in I need to wait another full year to be eligible) or does it carry over (so I only need to wait another 5 months to be eligible)?

    Regardless of the answer to the first question, my wife an I are expecting our first child this summer, and I want to take some leave once her FMLA runs out. The problem is, I’m caught someone in the opposite side of the gender roles issue (the one no one ever seems to want to talk about). I’m a young(ish) man in a heavily male dominated, good-old-boys style politics industry, where taking weeks (let alone months) off to care for a baby is…unlikely to do much for my professional reputation. This is important enough to me that I’m willing to take that risk, but I’m hoping for some advice in how best to approach this. My manager I think will be pretty understanding of such things, but I’m worried more about the levels above him and maintaining good relations with my peers.

    Thanks!

    1. Anonygoose*

      I don’t really have much professional advice for this – but congratulations, and I think it’s great you want to be so involved! It’s too bad there’s still such a stigma with taking paternity leave.

    2. Ann Cognito*

      When you say “contractor”, do you mean an independent contractor who will receive a 1099 vs. a W2? If you’re a temporary employee through a temp agency, who will receive a W2 at the end of the year from the agency, then your time with the current employer would probably count towards FMLA eligibility, if you convert to a regular employee. If you’re an independent contractor, you might be eligible if you can show that you should have been classified as an employee. Here’s a link to an article I found that might help: https://reedgroup.com/2016/01/06/navigating-fmla-eligibility-for-independent-contractors-and-temporary-employees/

      An employer can’t hold the fact that you take a legal leave of absence against you, including mentioning it to future employers. I would be matter-of-fact about taking the leave, and maybe have an answer in mind for any comments you may hear, I don’t know, maybe something like “It’s so great to be able to take this leave. I’m so pleased it’s now completely legal, unlike in the past!” (said in a happy, cheerful manner!). Then, if you do hear any snide comments, if it’s a peer, call them on it; if it’s someone above you, meaning you’re not comfortable in the moment calling them out, make note of what was said, and speak with your manager, elevating to HR (if there is HR), if necessary.

  61. theater volunteer*

    I’m in charge of hiring a summer marketing intern for our theater group for the first time (so it’s up to me to create the processes from scratch). A couple of questions for those who’ve done hiring:

    – Our job description clearly states we’re looking for a current student – their stipend for the part-time summer internship comes in the form of a scholarship to be paid towards tuition for the coming school year. For the people who have sent in resumes and have 10+ years work experience post-masters degree, what should I respond? A form letter no-thank-you or something much more detailed? I don’t want to be that person who doesn’t respond, but also if you took the time to read the job description (heck, even the job TITLE of Marketing Intern), you’d know you’re not at all what we’re looking for and we’re not what you’re looking for either.

    – One of the applicants in the running is a former student of mine from when I was a yearbook teacher. My name isn’t on the posting so I doubt she’d know I’m involved, but should I treat her any differently as a candidate? Being a college student marketing intern is a very different set of skills than being the high school junior in charge of the marching band and homecoming dance pages for yearbook…

    – Advice for how to interview students when they’re away at school? We have applicants who will be here over the summer because we’re their hometown, but they’re 4 hours away at college, and I don’t want to make them make the drive if they don’t have to. I also don’t want to wait on a decision until they’re back for the summer – it’s not fair on either side for the uncertainty of “what will I do this summer?” Would it be weird to select someone based only on a Skype interview?

    Thanks in advance for the help! I want to get this right and err on the side of the good managers, not the bad ones.

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      1. Respond with something like “As the job description stated, we are only looking for a current student to fill this role. Best wishes for your job search.”

      2. No, you cannot treat her differently. You haven’t known her in a long time, anyway. She might be very different.

      3. Skype interviews are absolutely fine here. Start with a phone interview, then offer Skype to faraway candidates who make it that far. Local candidates should of course be brought in.

    2. Connie-Lynne*

      Just reinforcing here that a Skype interview would be totally normal in this situation, and probably much appreciated by the candidates.

  62. Charlie Q*

    I may have a job offer coming. It’s not at all certain, and I don’t want to make assumptions, but just in case it is — I don’t think I want this job.

    I’m currently unemployed, but I have financial stability for several months longer if need be. Part of me wants to take any job for the income, but this is an entry level production position (stamping, filing, batching documents) when what I really want to do is administrative assistant type work. This won’t get me anywhere, but it will get me a paycheck and experience outside of the classroom. (Almost all my work has been tutoring and teaching. I don’t want to stand in front of another classroom so long as I live.)

    The other problem is that a friend of mine works at this company and recommended me, fast-tracking my resume & application to the hiring manager. Given this, am I harming my friend’s standing if I turn down an offer? It’s not like he went massively to bat for me, just recommended me, but I worry.

    Am I obligated to take this job because my friend recommended me? Even if I’m pretty sure I don’t want it?

    1. Sadsack*

      You are not obligated to take any job! Did you ask your friend to refer you, or did she do that herself? Either way, you don’t have to take it, but you should probably talk to your friend asap after declining.

      1. Charlie Q*

        He knew I was searching and recommended the job. I gave him a heads up when I applied, and he talked to the hiring manager and forwarded my resume.

        He knows I’m a little desperate for work, but I learned from the interview that the job is different from what I imagined when I read the job description. So I was interested originally, but probably not now?

    2. Anonygoose*

      I think it really depends on how likely it is you can get the type of position you want within the next few months, and that strongly depends on your experience and your location. For instance, in my hometown, the only real jobs are at call centres and factory work. It wouldn’t make sense to turn down a job to work at a factory because I was holding out for a job as a communications assistant. Those jobs might exist, but they only come around once every few years. It would be more important to me to just be employed than to be employed in exactly the right kind of job. BUT, if I were living in a big city with lots of jobs of all sorts, I would maybe turn down a position because the chances are that something else will come along.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Thank your friend profusely and tell him to send your thanks to his boss also. Then let him know you have decided to go in a different direction.

  63. Gadget Hackwrench*

    Okay, I could use a little help and I’m not even sure it can be given over the internet. I’m the IT guy, and apparently some of my callers find me condescending. Just as often I get people saying how they wish they always got me on the line because I’m always so positive, which is definitely more in line with how I perceive myself, and I am unaware of any difference in how I’m speaking to people who see me as good, bad or indifferent, but of course only the ones who feel badly about it bother to contact my boss.

    I tried to look up ways to sound less condescending, but pretty much every article on the internet was full of really really obvious things you shouldn’t SAY so you don’t sound condescending. I’m not saying any of those things, and I’m not conversing any differently with the callers who think I’m all positive and the ones who tell me I don’t need to take an attitude with them… so it’s got to be something tonal, and for the life of me I can’t identify it. Clearly ya’ll can’t hear me in text… but if anyone can offer any advice at all on how to identify what’s setting people off, I’d appreciate it. (And asking them is out of the question, I know they’ll only take that as an attempt to argue.)

    1. FDCA In Canada*

      Do you ever sigh on the line, or internally roll your eyes (or externally, I guess, you’re on the phone), or make small little tsk-ing noises, even subconsciously while you’re looking up an answer or typing something for a caller? Do you ever sort of take it upon yourself to “instruct” people about what they might be doing wrong, and that might be coming out in your tone? Is your tone targeted at a very beginner-level understanding of IT (“look at your monitor…that’s the screen part you look at…”) that might be rubbing some people the wrong way? I’ve found that occasionally if I’m frustrated with a situation, it’s audible over the phone even though it’s not in my words–it comes through my tone because while I’m saying the right words, I’m thinking to myself “I can’t believe I need to do X and Y and Z again, I have so many other things to do” and that’s what is coming through. We transmit a lot of information through tone of voice and a lot of voice is subconscious–maybe try recording yourself, voice only, at home, with a few “practice” calls like ones you’ve done at work, and re-listening to yourself? It’s awful listening to yourself, but it might be enlightening.

      1. Gadget Hackwrench*

        I definitely do not sigh or make tsking noises at anyone, EVER. I’m NOT actually frustrated with the users most of the time. They don’t bother me. Legitimately. I know that’s almost impossible to believe, but there you have it. The only time I ever really start feeling negatively toward the user is when they’re outright abusive, and in those cases I always file the appropriate report.

        I HAVE occasional misjudged the tech level of my users, but never by over explaining, except during password changes where I’m REQUIRED to ask them if the new password they’re choosing is [insert all criteria here], which many long time employees already know, before taking any workaround steps. Usually when I’ve miss estimated their capabilities I’ll ask them to open an Internet Browser and have them freeze up and ask me if I mean they should click the company intranet icon on their desktop.

      2. Gadget Hackwrench*

        Oh, also I’m not that kind of tech support where I look up answers or walk users through anything. I’m in a corporate environment where in the course of most tickets we take direct control of the user’s computer (Please Answer Yes to the Two Prompts I’m sending to your Screen) and fix the issue.

    2. SophieChotek*

      I assume your supervisor has just passed on feedback.
      If this is phone support, are the calls recorded “for security and training purposes”?

      If so, could your superior actually go back and listen to one that ended up with a complaint. And then maybe compare with one if you had someone specifically say they really liked working with you. Maybe the would then a) see you are the same to both and it just a perception issue or b) maybe there are really small subtle changes you make and don’t realize (tonal) or c)…something else…

      I don’t know…some people feel like optimism/positive attitudes can be condescending in its own way….don’t know why…

      1. Gadget Hackwrench*

        God I WISH they were recorded. I asked. They’re not. That would make this soooooo much easier for me to figure out.

        1. JKP*

          Do you answer calls frequently enough through the day that you could ask your supervisor (or colleague) to listen to a few calls and give you feedback on how you could improve? If nothing else, that might mitigate any complaints they do receive because they already know that Gadget is great on the phone. You can’t please everyone, so if you handle enough calls, then some of them are bound to find something to complain about.

          Even though the calls aren’t being recorded by the company, could you put your phone on your desk and record yourself on the calls? IANAL, but it doesn’t seem like you would need to inform the callers or get their consent if you are only recording your half of the conversation.

          1. Gadget Hackwrench*

            I definitely take calls often enough. I’m a desk jockey. I don’t get to go aaaaaanywhere. Trouble is this is not something that happens with enough regularity to make it worth my boss sitting in. He’s very busy. Half the time he’s not even present in the office. In better news, the “Gadget is great on the phone” thing has been established for like… a year and a half now. The problem is a recent uncharacteristic uptick in complaints, which confuses both him and me. Him because I usually don’t GET complaints, and me because I can’t account any change on my side. I might be more upset than he is.

            To make it clear… this setup with a mostly absent boss works out just fine for me otherwise. Not to toot my own horn, but I’m very independent and reliable. I spent 9 months last year holding down the fort solo on weekends, 7am-7pm. I work at a level 1 trauma center. i.e. “the big hospital” for the area. So it’s not likely that I’m getting shit canned anytime soon. They trust me enough to leave the lives of every patient in the joint solely in my hands for 12 hours at a time… well, mine and one desk-side guy I can deploy to things that can’t be fixed remotely. Deskside is in a whole other building though so I could be playing basketball over here and no one would be the wiser. I’m definitely not on the shitlist here, at least by comparison to several surlier less reliable coworkers. Plus we have three open positions at the moment, which is a lot, considering we’re a 14 agent 24 hour operation.

    3. really*

      Are the one’s who complain the one’s with the simplest issues to resolve? Sometimes when people feel embarrassed by their own stupidity/ignorance they will complain about something because otherwise they would have to accept that they were the ones at fault.

            1. Elizabeth West*

              But if you don’t know what the ticket was, you wouldn’t know the situation and you couldn’t think back and even recollect what might have happened. This is just really vague.

        2. Connie-Lynne*

          Ask your boss to give you a concrete example next time. If they can’t give you a concrete example, an aggregate or generic example similar to the problem. Ideally your boss is following up and not just getting “Gadget was condescending,” but if they aren’t, try asking “I try very hard not to be condescending, and to be positive, so this feedback mystifies me. Without examples, it’s hard for me to see what I need to adjust. Could you possibly ask the next few people who complain to give you some details about the situation, and permission to share them with me? I genuinely want to fix this but clearly I’m not getting it.”

          If they can’t or won’t do this — or if people won’t volunteer more details — you can write it off and just do the best you can. Without specific feedback, you’re just guessing, and that’s not your fault, it’s the fault of your manager.

          1. The Not Mad But Sometimes Irritable Scientist*

            Was going to say this. It’s so hard to respond to general complaints like this. As a guy, I’m going to go ahead and assume that most of the complaints are coming from tech-unsavvy men who are reading condescension into your tone because they’re embarrassed that they’re not the Master of Computery Things.

        3. Ann Cognito*

          That’s crazy that they won’t tell you, since they’ve now put you in a position of being wary of everyone you talk to! I had a person above me give me some negative feedback in a prior position, from someone who reported to him, but he wouldn’t give me the name.

          So I said to him, “I know you understand that it’s impossible for me change a behavior when I don’t have any concrete examples to go on, beyond you saying “this person says that one day you…”. I am always polite with everyone with whom I deal, so, again, I can’t do anything with this information, other than assure you that I will continue to be professional at all times in my dealings with everyone. If the person wants to be more specific, I am more than happy to talk some more with you at that point. But without a concrete example, there’s nothing I can do right now, since you say the person wants to remain anonymous.”

    4. PK*

      My first thought is that you are over explaining issues and fixes. Depending on tone, that can be a tricky line to walk. My other thought is that you are coming off too short/direct.

      Many years in Helpdesk and I’ve found that some IT folks have a habit of over explaining issues/fixes or sounding very annoyed by the call in the first place. If that’s not the case, I think you’ll have to ask for specific examples.

      1. Gadget Hackwrench*

        I’m never short/irritated with callers. That’s not my groove. If I were that’s the sort of thing I could identify and be all “oh yeah, I totally was irritated with this person and it probably came through.” Trouble is… I don’t get that. I literally do not get irritated with callers. I grew some SUPER thick callouses years ago when I used to answer the Child Support Hotline.

        Any call I get in IT is absolutely sunshine and rainbows compared to the callers that used to routinely wish me death, ask me how I could sleep at night knowing I ruined their life, and make inappropriate sexual comments about my mother and/or grandmother. I wound up weeping at least once a week working there. I was there for two years. Here, I’m on cloud nine.

    5. Girasol*

      This happened to me once. I never found out what I said that had been a problem, it was just “attitude,” and like you, I had thought mine was pretty good and well received. I wanted to fix the problem but had nothing to go on. Before a year was out I found out who made the complaint and by then the guy was saying great things about me. I can only think it was some sort of a misunderstanding or he was having a rotten day and later he rethought his own attitude. It’s not fair when the facts get so filtered that the criticism is only alarming and not constructive, and your manager takes it seriously anyway! But smile and stay professional. You may just need to wait a bit for something that’s really not about you after all to work itself out.

    6. Hnl123*

      So I have the same problem as you. I call it “resting b!tch voice” to match with my resting b-face.

      Here’s how I really figured it out: I recorded myself. Next time you get a call, can you turn on the voice recorder on your phone? What I did was record a ‘standard response’ into my computer in the way I would typically talk.
      Holy cow. I DID sound condescending. BUT – the good news is now I knew what my own vocal quirks are.

      It could be:
      :: Attitude. The way I stressed certain words, the way I elongated certain words, either went up or down in tone at the end of a sentence all contributed to appearing condescending. (I guess all the concentration on saying the right thing was coming off poorly.)
      :: vocal fry at the end of sentences
      :: A really flat “uuum,” (instead of my voice inflecting upward)
      :: my voice/tone generally trends down/flat. I’ve noticed that when I artificially inflect up, it feels really weird, but doesn’t sound that weird.
      :: Curt responses
      :: “yes” vs “yes!”
      :: I call tech-related customer services quite often. The really pleasant ones have a lot of supportive comments like “you did that? Great! let’s do the next step!” “You can see it now? All right!”

      The only way to figure it out is to record. Best of luck!

      1. Evergreen*

        Ooh, see that last one is where I think this might be different callers with different preferences: if I called IT and they congratulated me every time I clicked where I was told to I would definitely find that condescending. Extremely condescending. I’m calling because your systems are not working, not because I’ve never used a computer before!!!

        my advice would be to keep a tone that’s as even as possible: warm but not positive. And try to engage the caller on the weather, sportsball, or anything else you’d say to a colleague (step back if they’re too frazzled to join in wholeheartedly!) They need something specific from you in the least time possible, not moral support or commiseration.

        1. Gadget Hackwrench*

          Hrm… I do tend to be incredibly positive… perhaps they’re taking that as condescending? Although not “congrats for clicking that” level of positive, because honestly most of my callers it would be more like “why the hell did you click that?” Lol. Still… it might be coming off patronizing when I’m really just that chipper?

    7. Not So NewReader*

      I see two things.
      One is that you converse the same way with everyone. I think you do try to adjust up or down and just don’t realize. But maybe some people feel you talk over their heads or they feel you over explain. My suggestion would be to put a little more intent on finding out what level of expertise your caller has. You can start to get an idea by the way they describe the problem.

      The other thing is one that got my husband in trouble. He was super smart but he thought he was of average intelligence. This lead him to believe that people could easily follow what he was saying. NO. Not quite. You can’t tell on the phone, but watch people when you talk with them in person. Are their eyes glazing over? Are they checking their phones, the door, tapping their pencil? This might give you some clues as to how callers are reacting. Sometimes super smart people are not aware of how different their view of things is from other people. I don’t think this is your problem because of the way you write here. But my husband could have good days where people actually understood him, too.

      1. Gadget Hackwrench*

        This… could definitely be contributory. In both categories. I do have some frequent callers I know and recognize by name, and can tailor my responses to, but I also have a lot of people I’ve never gotten a call from before and I definitely wind up fumbling around trying to get a read on where they are in computer understanding… I definitely get into more trouble with the latter. The worst is when they call up and tell me “the computer doesn’t work” and I have to drag a description of the actual problem out of them, because it’s impossible to get a read on someone’s level of computer understanding when they won’t talk about the computer. The second worst is when they sound like they know what they’re talking about, but they’re just pulling jargon out of their butt and leading me up the wrong tree. :(

    8. LCL*

      My total guess, based on zero evidence since I haven’t heard you speak, is that you uptalk at the end of sentences and when confirming something?
      Up talking is often criticized because it sounds childish. It can also sound really condescending, especially if the up talking person has a deeper voice.

  64. Professional Cat Lady*

    I’ve been having problems dealing with a difficult co-worker almost since I started this job. I’ve asked my manager for some help, because he’s difficult with everyone (including her, as part of the leadership of our org), and she’s enrolled myself and one other coworker in some HR webinars to help the situation.

    Good, right? Until yesterday when he overheard me complaining about a situation last week to another coworker who is equally frustrated. Now I’m just getting a cold shoulder and it feels awkward. It’s on me for this particular situation, and I know that, and I’ve apologized for what I said. (I implied that he didn’t do any work, which was borne out of my frustration at getting a joke and condescending advise for “next time” when I asked him to do something that is actually his job.)

    I don’t quite know how to get back to neutral with Fergus now. I’m pretty sure he doesn’t think too highly of me, and now he knows how frustrating I find dealing with him. Any advise would be appreciated.

    1. Sadsack*

      You have already apologized, which is good. Just proceed as normal and try not to have something like that happen again. This sounds like it is all Fergus, so just be professional interacting with him going forward. I don’t think there is anything else you can do and there is no need to apologise again.

    2. The Not Mad But Sometimes Irritable Scientist*

      Honestly? I’m not too sure neutral is possible – nor desirable. It sounds like your boss is trying to manage your reaction to an unprofessional, difficult coworker, rather than managing the coworker, and it’s having predictable results.

      I’d go for dealing with him professionally (maybe with a touch of frosty if he gives you ‘tude), not letting it happen again, and not apologizing too much for finding him difficult and frustrating.

      1. Professional Cat Lady*

        That’s not the case at all! Fergus and I are part of a small org that merged into a mid-sized org, and my boss is the Operations Director who is now managing two sites. I asked for help before yesterday, and I’m working my way through some HR seminars before having a face-to-face meeting with Jane about the issue. She’s great, not in small part because she’s having the exact same issues I am with Fergus.

        I don’t know if neutral is possible anymore either. I’m trying to be polite and professional, but he is either ignoring me, answering me reluctantly when I ask him something directly relevant to his job, or interfering with my job in the wrong way. (giving clients the wrong forms instead of getting me to handle the process, which is my job.)

        I don’t know what else to do until I can sit down with Jane and Eliza. (my other coworker and his direct supervisor, who ALSO has the same issues.)

        1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          Well, that’s what I get for assuming, sorry to mischaracterize it so badly! But yeah, this guy sounds like he’s just a bad coworker, and there’s only so neutral you can make it when someone’s being passive-aggressive, obstructionist, and rude.

          And I think you’re 100% in the clear to say something direct like, “Fergus, you gave Client the wrong forms, and dealing with that process is really my responsibility. Please come get me when clients need to start that process.”

          1. Professional Cat Lady*

            I’m only about 10 feet away from the counter, but usually he’ll stick his head around and ask me to do the small customer service things that he doesn’t want to do, which has always been annoying because everyone around here is pretty flexible with what work we do (with a few exceptions). But since he’s giving me the cold shoulder he decided to just do it himself today instead of letting me walk ten feet and do it myself when I was already on the way. It’s frustrating, but I hope that once I get through the HR training things (they’re down today when it’s slow and I have time, grrrr) and meet with Jane, we can come up with a plan on how to deal with him and maybe curb some of the passive-aggressive tendencies.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      It takes two. If Fergus does not want normalcy then you two won’t have it.

      My suggestion to you is to return to your normal self. You have apologized, you have committed to not repeating that problem, there is not much more you can do.

      You can’t make Fergus or anyone be decent to you or even be neutral with you. I would just go about my day. Perhaps I would bury myself a little deeper in my own work so as not to dwell on Fergus too much.

  65. Umvue*

    A thousand thanks to Alison and the commentariat for this site. I’m making a job transition soon and the collective wisdom of this bunch was incredibly helpful in thinking about why I wanted to leave, and when, and how to give notice, and what to do with a counteroffer. At the last job I had to leave, my manager behaved fairly inappropriately when I resigned, so it was a great relief that people at this place were normal and professional about it, if sad. Thanks to everyone whose words on the topic gave me courage when I needed it.

  66. Emi.*

    I got a whiteboard for my office, and it’s huge! I’m so excited, even though it hasn’t been hung up yet.

    Speaking of hanging things on the wall, would it be unprofessional to hang up my X-Files “I want to believe poster”? Believing that there’s life on other planets is totally mainstream at my work, but maybe alien abduction TV/movie posters are over the line?

    1. Allypopx*

      I have a TARDIS plush and a slytherin water bottle on my shelf. I think that’s a “know your culture” thing.

    2. Murphy*

      I think it depends on what’s typical in your office. I have funko pops in my area and no one cares.

    3. T3k*

      Yeah, it really depends on your work culture. I’ve been in an office where I knew sarcastic posters wouldn’t fly, and I’ve seen others where their desks and shelves are covered in funko pops with all kinds of posters on the walls.

    4. Sabrina the Teenage Witch*

      It wouldn’t look bad if it was hung in a frame versus simply hanging the poster on the wall like you’d find in any dorm room.

  67. Dolphin*

    I’ve been thinking recently about how you know when its time to switch jobs. I’ve been approaching it from an unusual angle though – I’m really happy with my job; does there come a point when I should switch anyway? I feel like I have everything going for me at work:
    -an excellent manager who understands me, supports my career goals, and provides me with opportunities for development
    -interesting work assignments that continuously require me to learn and apply new skills
    -a good work environment, such as friendly colleagues, flexible hours, and the ability to work from home
    -opportunities for promotion
    -internal transfers are an option if I get bored with my current role

    The one con with my current role is that it’s highly “non-traditional” (in the sense that it makes use of the skills I learned in school but is not directly in the field I studied. Think studying teapot design, and ending up in a job designing software for teapot designers instead.) I can’t decide if this is good or bad.
    Good – the niche fits me perfectly; I’m excellent at my job; I was lucky enough to stumble into it and I should consider turning it into a career.
    Bad – it will be harder to switch to a more traditional role in the future if I stay in this role for too long/not many jobs like the one I have now exist and I may want to/need to switch jobs in the future.

    I’m not actively looking to switch jobs right now, but I have wondered for the future – assuming everything above continues to hold true, is there some external reason that I should switch jobs anyway? For example, is there a maximum number of recommended years to stay at one company? I also wonder if I could be equally happy somewhere else – there have to be other companies that also have the benefits I outlined above, but there’s no real way to know. If anyone has some insights into switching jobs when the going is good, please share!

    1. Ordinary Worker*

      The time to switch jobs is when you are feeling like you DON’T have all those great things you listed! Enjoy having a wonderful job, as you can see from the comments on this site, not everyone has that.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Exactly. Never leave a good job that you like just because you think you should – you could end up somewhere worse, not better.

    2. krysb*

      I say keep your options open if something better comes along, but really focus on enjoying this job (until and unless it stops meeting your needs, of course).

  68. The Disappearing Interview*

    Last week, I heard back from a company I have long been a fan of – they recently opened an office in my town to support their existing outposts in NYC and SF. The company is only about 4 years old, but I love startups and was excited for my interview. First interview was scheduled by phone for this Monday at 10am, but no one called. I waited 2 hours, then reached out to the scheduler, who apologized, gave an excuse (an unexpected phone call for the recruiter), and rescheduled me for Tuesday at 10am. You guessed it, another no-show. This time, I waited til the end of the day before reaching out, and was given another round of excuses (an unexpected meeting – without apology this time) and rescheduled for yesterday afternoon. Stood up a 3rd time.

    Now, the reason I let it get to 3 strikes in the first place was a combo of genuinely loving the product (have used it professionally) and understanding that startups bring with them an inherent degree of flux and unpredictability. But, now I’m mad! And offended! And wanting to burn it down! I know “burn it to the ground” is not a real option, but how shall I proceed?

    Let it go entirely with no additional outreach? (I feel that this makes me no better than the Houdini interviewer.)
    Leave a Glassdoor interview review?
    Formally withdraw my candidacy and cite the reasons?
    None of the above?
    Some combo of the above?

    Please help. I’m way too close to the situation – and too disappointed – to think logically.

    1. MegaMoose, Esq*

      Letting it go does not make you the equivalent of the interviewer! I say stop contacting them, write up a super scathing review but DON’T send it, then come back to it in a week or two (whenever you’re not upset anymore), and think about whether anything productive would come from posting it or a less scathing write-up.

    3. Spoonie*

      Something similar happened to me — I left a Glassdoor review. However, I had no attachments to the company and was just disappointed in their hiring process.

  69. Lady Julian*

    Anybody have experience with coding bootcamps, such as Galvanize & Turing? Asking for a friend who wants to reboot his career this way.

    1. Annie Moose*

      I work for a web development company, and several of my coworkers actually got their start in programming through bootcamps! I think they definitely can work for people, but they have to actually want to program and be interested in it, to make it work. If they’re just doing it because programming is the hot new thing and they want to make money, they’re not likely to do as well.

      I have no personal experience, though–this is just based on what I’ve seen of others. No idea about specific companies, either.

  70. Red Reader*

    *kermit flail*

    A director in my department, two levels above me on the org chart but not in my direct line of report, apparently is doing a special project so significant that she’s taking a 90-day hiatus from her regular duties to focus exclusively on this project, and went to my director and manager to specifically request to borrow me to take on “a significant role” in the project.

    STOKED.

    2. NW Mossy*

      I just have to say that “Kermit flail” is the most apt and succinct way of describing that feeling, and I love it. Go you!

      1. Red Reader*

        Isn’t it great? :)

        Added bonus: This project should, god willing and the creek don’t rise, give me the foundation I need to develop the final paper (“not thesis length, think a semester-and-a-half” wtf does that even mean) for my MPA. (I have one academic year left of grad school after the project’s scheduled completion.)

  71. New Window*

    Work problem. I already know that the issue in question is legal, but I’d like to ask how your guys’ organizations handle or would handle this situation.

    I have mandatory travel several times a year for work. This is usually air travel, and for Reasons, travel times usually are evening departures, overnight flights, etc. Currently, this travel time is considered to be work hours, so we include it in overtime calculations. A trip is rarely under 9 or 10 hours and can easily go for longer, depending on the destination. We get work done if anything is done during a time of day where our brains are on. However, since travel is typically with some variation of red-eye flights, brains are not functioning, and we mostly try to catch a few zzz’s, mostly unsuccessfully.

    Cue plot twist: Our boss has decided they don’t want to count this as work time anymore. And it looks like state law only requires it to be counted as work if it falls during normal work hours (8:00 am – 4:00 pm) and only for the period of time we’re doing actual work.

    This will suck so hard. When I’m traveling off-site for 3-7 days, the only real perk is overtime pay. Overnight flights are exhausting, and sharing rooms with coworkers happens more often than not. In addition, I have to pay for pet care for the longer trips, so travel can easily become a financial loss without overtime hours. I intend to discuss Boss’s decision with them, phrasing it in terms of morale and the fact that our job is requiring us to travel.

    If this were the only issue at work, I might be able to take it without asking for AAM commentariat support, but this is just the latest addition to the myriad of ways my work has become permanently demoralizing.

    So, how do your guys’ jobs handle this, especially if the law doesn’t require your company to provide overtime for this? Has this created conflict in your workplaces before?

    1. Creag an Tuire*

      Who schedules/books the flights, you or the company? FLSA seems to indicate that the flight time is compensable as long it occurs within normal work hours (even if not on a normal workday). (Links in a subsequent post.)

    3. Imaginary Number*

      I swear I just had this conversation with someone at my workplace (minus sharing rooms because that seriously sucks.)

      Are you hourly or salaried? If you’re salaried overtime is really a perk anyway (assuming you meet the threshold.)

      I would recommend talking with your manager. There may be ways to make up for the red-eye travel time other than overtime. A reasonable person would try to work with you. Is comp time an option?

    4. AndersonDarling*

      If nothing else, can you ask for comp time? I’ve had to travel and my company isn’t great about handling hourly work times, but I’m usually given an extra day off when I get home.

      1. New Window*

        @Imaginary Number and AndersonDarling, we’re hourly non-exempt. The closest we can get to comp time is taking time off earlier or later in the same work week. We regularly do this for shorter trips, but for week-long trips it’s not possible because, well, we’re working all week.

        “Within normal working hours” is a moot point most of the time because most of our flights depart and arrive in the evening or night, so 8 of 10-11 hours of travel takes place outside of that 8:00 – 4:00 window. For the multi-time zone flights that depart in that window, we would need an extra day on-site–which of course is HORRIBLE AND AWFUL because it costs an extra day of hotels and per diem.

        1. AndersonDarling*

          Yep, I’m non-exempt as well. My work isn’t accustomed to hourly employees working (I am really mis-classified, but that’s a story for another day) and we have a crummy HR director that really doesn’t understand the rules of paying non-exempt employees for all hours worked. Because of these issues, my boss just gives me an extra day off because it is out of his control.
          The quality control part of me hates that we don’t document the hours, but I’m not up to battling it, and accept my freebe day.
          In your case, it seems like someone is not reading the law correctly. If you are working, then you need to be paid. If you are traveling for work, that is still working- as far as I know. What if you had to go to a tiny town in China and it would take 2 days to get there? They can’t say that it is donated time.
          If there is a gentle way to push back and suggest they get a second opinion on their interpretation, I’d suggest it. It’s a labor lawsuit waiting to happen.

        2. PollyQ*

          If you’re non-exempt then this: Our boss has decided they don’t want to count this as work time anymore. And it looks like state law only requires it to be counted as work if it falls during normal work hours (8:00 am – 4:00 pm) and only for the period of time we’re doing actual work. may not be legal. I would definitely do some internet research, or maybe check with your state’s DOL or even an attorney.

          1. Natalie*

            I can’t speak to every state, but federally this is almost correct: you only need to be paid for travel that occurs during your regular work hours *or* time when you are doing actual work. (So for example, if your work hours end at 4 but you are working while waiting in the airport until 5, they would have to pay you until 5.)

    5. NLMC*

      We ran into this issue a few years back (I’m exempt and my reports are non-exempt) so I fought to get them extra vacation days in lieu of overtime pay or comp time. It’s hard to comp when you travel all week.
      If that’s not possible, I would then tell them weekend travel is no longer an option for you.

      1. Oscar Madisoy*

        “If that’s not possible, I would then tell them weekend travel is no longer an option for you.”

        That response may not be an option for the OP, who said the travel is “mandatory.” Based on that, I would infer that if the OP went to the boss with that response, it might cost him his job.

  72. Jules the First*

    So my newish boss gave me a list a few months ago of department heads and suggested that I make sure to meet them. I had been taking this as a suggestion and letting interactions happen organically (because in my days as dept head, I hated meeting with people who don’t have a reason, and I feel like these interactions are more memorable if they have a purpose other than a vague “let’s get to know each other”), and I’ve met with three or four names on the list of 25.

    Having just been praised effusively by my boss for “bonding” with a coworker at an all-hands meeting this week (I was actually helping her troubleshoot her new training program), I’ve suddenly realised that new boss is relationship-driven rather than results-oriented (crap! Not my thing!) and I therefore need to really move on this list of people asap.

    Does anyone have a good script for reaching out by email to invite senior (and very busy) people for coffee when what you really need from them is to say hi and get their “my department 101” because my boss will like me more if I waste your time?

    1. Imaginary Number*

      Does it have to be coffee? In my workplace “get-to-knows” are a very common thing and generally expected, especially if your boss gives you particular names. We just put 15 minutes on someone’s calendar (or talk to their admin if they have one) and go to their office. If they don’t have time they’ll say so.

      Also, you’re assuming that you’re wasting their time. Assuming you’re not jumping four levels up or something outrageous, get-to-knows can be beneficial to both parties.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        I like this, and especially if it is people you’re going to be interacting with in the future re projects, information seeking, etc. That might be the best angle at which to approach it, i.e. “Hi, I’m Jules and I’ll be doing X with Boss’s tea. I wanted to get with you and see how you usually handle requests for information [whatever].”

        1. Imaginary Number*

          I’d like to add that it’s not rude to say that your boss was the one who thought the get-to-know was a good idea, if you’re worried that you’ll look too forward.

          1. Jules the First*

            It’s not so much that I’m worried about looking forward and more that I just haven’t the faintest idea what to say. We’re an “agile workplace” (gag) so nobody had an office or a regular spot that I can just drop by – it pretty much has to be pre-arranged – and in previous jobs I’ve always been the person that everyone needed to know, so people have always come to me and introduced themselves. The one job where that wasn’t the case, my manager had someone from HR walk me around the office for 10-minute hellos for less-key people, and my manager set up sessions with the really key people for me.

            I guess my issue is that if they’re really that critical to my role, would it kill her to make an introduction? Even just an email from her to the list saying “Hey, Jules has just joined my team and will be reaching out to say hi” would make me waaaay more comfortable.

            1. Apple Grumble*

              Why does your manager need to do it, though?

              I needed to do similar when I started my job. I just emailed people invites. I hear that you feel uncomfortable but your manager would be spending a lot of time emailing 22 people who you still need to contact yourself anyway.

            3. Fortitude Jones*

              I guess my issue is that if they’re really that critical to my role, would it kill her to make an introduction?

              My division SVP just did this for me with a manager in another remote division. He said he talked me up and told the guy I’d be reaching out to him, and SVP encouraged me to send this manager my resume to discuss possible upcoming positions since I told SVP and my current supervisor that I’d like to transfer to another division. It was cool of him to do that.

      2. Apple Grumble*

        This. They’re routine in my workplace and they help everyone work well with other teams.

  73. EngineerInNL*

    Not really a question, more a follow up to my post a few weeks ago about my performance review (where I was apparently underselling myself according to my boss). Today I got my letter stating my raise and it was higher than I expected and she told me that it was above the average increase plus that I should expect another raise in April as she increased my designation a level! Obviously I’m pretty pumped about all that but to make it even better during my annual review I mentioned wanting to take on more of a project manager role which she then told me there really wasn’t space for it at the moment which I kinda knew anyways (I mostly mentioned it for further down the road) but today she told me that since one of my coworkers is going on mat leave in a month or so (originally they were going to hire a replacement I think but I’m not sure if they’re going to do that now) they’re going to let me try my hand on a small project and see how it goes! I’m pretty sure this is only happening because I directly asked for this during my review and now I’m just excited (and scared lol) and I feel super valued by my company.

  74. SirTechSpec*

    Just a quick post to say that if everyone on my project team actually does their assigned tasks this coming week, it will be the LAST week of a project that’s been slowly killing me for the last six months!!! (And also the end, at least for a while, of my involvement in project management generally, which is Not My Thing and yet somehow I’ve been managing major organization-wide initiatives for much of the last two years.)

    Looking forward to getting back to work that I’m actually good at that’s satisfying instead of stressful. Still, I have a feeling that I won’t quite believe it for a couple weeks after it’s done (seems there’s always one more little thing…), and it will probably take months to fully recover… but hopefully progress will be rapid!!

  75. Imaginary Number*

    Suggestions to fix a stinky office fridge? I have a cubicle directly across from the coffee station and office fridge. It’s been an issue for a while because people will leave food in there and forget about it. A few months ago someone found a piece of cheesecake that was literally green with mold. There are nicer, newer fridges in the kitchen areas (which are farther away) which have weekly cleanouts but this particular one is owned by our department rather than the building and isn’t included in the cleaning contract. Recently, the fridge has become ridiculously stinky to the point that the area reeks of trash when anyone opens it. There are only three of us close enough to be affected (everyone else just comments on it when they open the fridge, but can’t smell it from their desks.) Our manager has threatened several times that everything is going to get dumped on a certain date, but that didn’t really happen. Finally, two of us took it upon ourselves one weekend to clean everything out. However, the smell has remained. We think it may need a full bleaching or something and that’s not a chemical we have access to at work. Any suggestions?

    1. Lillian Styx*

      Try a box of baking soda. Arm & Hammer even makes special boxes specifically for filtering stink (it has some kinda mesh on the sides when you pull off the cardboard). Seems to work well in my fridge!

      1. Imaginary Number*

        Thanks! That seems like something I could try that wouldn’t be a huge undertaking.

      2. Corky's wife Bonnie*

        Definitely try the baking soda box, but clean it out well first with some baking soda mixed with lemon juice. Someone downthread suggested you unplug the fridge and move it and that’s a great idea. Then, after you check it out underneath, the floor, and surrounding areas, really get into the crevices. Sometimes food or spilled liquid gets caught in the sealing areas and you can’t always see that. Then, don’t put any food in it for the first day or so and put a bowl full of baking soda open in the fridge. If that works, then keep that baking soda in the special box for the future. Hopefully that will work.

    2. LCL*

      Unplug the fridge, move it, and clean under and behind it. Food will fall down there. If the fridge has a drip tray that is removable (take a phone pic of the nameplate, take the phone to your computer, type the nameplate info into google for diagrams and links to diagrams) remove the drip tray and clean it.

      1. Imaginary Number*

        None of us can move furniture without risking a union complaint (it gets pretty serious around here about that.)

        1. Lemon Zinger*

          We had a smelly fridge in my office too, even after it was cleaned thoroughly. When the fridge was moved, we discovered a huge patch of mold underneath it. You really do need to move it. Surely there’s some help your union can give you in getting this fridge moved? Or you must have maintenance people who can help?

        2. LCL*

          Even better, you won’t have to do it! Make a request of whoever does that work, following your companies procedures, and have them do it.

    3. Volunteer Coordinator in NOVA*

      I would clean it really well (take all the shelves out and clean the drip tray) and then put baking soda on a cookie tray or pan as that will help absorb more of the smell. I would also put a box in there and replace it regularly as that will help as it’s put back into use.

    4. Emi.*

      Second the baking soda! Do you just not have access to straight bleach, or also no bleach-containing products like regular ole Clorox cleaning spray? That’s what I’ve always used for my fridge–I’ve never heard of anyone using a bottle of actual bleach.

      1. Imaginary Number*

        I really don’t have access to any of the cleaning supplies and I don’t want to run afoul (haha) of any MSDS safety issues by bringing something like bleach in myself.

        1. Emi.*

          Oh, I see. Would MSDS issues come into play if it’s a standard commercial product? OTOH I see not wanting to drop your own money on this mess.

      1. zora*

        I second charcoal. I bought small charcoal boxes that are specifically for things like deodorizing fridges. Got them on amazon for $7 each. They have worked much better on my old fridge at home than baking soda did.

    6. Spoonie*

      In a pinch, I’ve used coffee grounds in a filter as a temporary solution until I could get to the store to get some baking soda. I believe my mom would also use a water/baking soda solution to wipe down the fridge with — I have no idea what those proportions were. I just know the water looked cloudy.

    7. Nanc*

      Can you contact the cleaning crew and see how much it is for a one-time clean? Or can you add your department fridge to the contract? Even if your department has to pay to be put on the contract it may not be that much and would solve the problem.

    8. Charlie Q*

      You can also put a cup of white vinegar in the fridge and it’ll clean out a lot of the smell. Just take a drinking glass or a mug or whatever and pour some vinegar in and stick it in the fridge for a few days.

  76. TMA*

    OK, so I was invited to a women’s networking group started by a current colleague of mine. She sent out a meeting invite, and she had named the group, “Safety Ladies Under Tension (SLUT).” I was pretty shocked when I read the name. I mean, we already work in a male-dominated field anyway, and then title it a name that is regularly hurled as an insult to women, I just couldn’t understand the reasoning.

    Mostly because of the name (I just don’t want to be associated with something that I find inherently demeaning to women) I haven’t attended any of the events. But I’m wondering if I should say something to her about it.

    Basically I need a sanity check. Is this name in bad taste? Should I say something?

    1. AAM fan*

      That name is ridiculous and just really inappropriate. I also wouldn’t attend any meetings for that organization unless the name changed.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        ditto. No way. I could not risk being associated with SLUT Networking.
        Someone thought they were being cute with a silly name, and they were not. If that’s the intelligence level of the members, then I think you would end up babysitting them instead of networking with them.

    3. Volunteer Coordinator in NOVA*

      I would say something for sure! Did she put the acronym in the invite?!

    4. TMA*

      Also, I should note: I talked to one coworker, and she was just as shocked as I was at the name. I talked to a second coworker, and she didn’t see a problem with the name.

      1. Allypopx*

        You probably get into some reclamation discussions if you delve deep into everyone’s reasoning for having varied opinions – some people will find it funny, empowering, etc. But I don’t think it’s appropriate for a professional networking group.

    5. Imaginary Number*

      Totally inappropriate. I could see a couple of friends making a secret facebook group with that name as an inside joke (I still wouldn’t like it, but I could deal) but NOT anything involving coworkers for crying out loud.

    6. Creag an Tuire*

      I’m going to assume that this is a well-meaning attempt to “reclaim” the word, ala the “SlutWalk”, but you should absolutely tell the organizer that you find the word demeaning and uncomfortable, and it’s blocking your participation.

      1. Natalie*

        That still seems very odd to me unless they are in a job where “slut” is regularly used as an insult… like, if the acronym was “bitch” it would make a teeny bit more sense, as “bitch” is a word typically used to undermine women in the workplace.

    7. Emi.*

      You are sane. This is terrible and in bad taste. Please do say something! She should know that the name is putting people off. (Also, that’s the lamest and most contrived acronym I’ve ever seen, and I work for the federal government.)

    8. memory from the past*

      Very poor taste, and please say something.

      Be prepared, though. Sometimes people are just so in love with what they created that they become totally blind to what is obvious to others. They will perhaps be totally unable to understand the issue.

      A long time ago I was in an incest support group that decided a way to make money was to sell some custom t-shirts. A small committee got together to come up with ideas and an artist in the group did the design. They had some shirts made up and brought to the full meeting without vetting the design first. The committee went into great detail explaining all the symbolism. There was a huge heart, for love, of course. The little white lilies stacked one on top of the other in one row on each side of the heart was for purity. Unfortunately, for many of us, those two rows of lilies looked like an open pant zipper and the heart bulging out was like testicles. We just sat there speechless. The committee did not understand why we were not buying those t-shirts for ourselves and others. I look back on it now and it is so funny, but it was not at time.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      Ask her what the reasoning behind the name was.

      Basically figure that whatever you have to say won’t weigh in too much because she has already decided. However you can at least know why she did that.

  77. Submitted a question to AAM*

    How long should we wait between submitting a question to Alison, and assuming it won’t be answered and putting it on an open thread instead? I understand that not everything can be answered by Alison, but I didn’t know how long to wait so my question wasn’t just in limbo forever.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I’d ask that you wait at least a few weeks, but you can always email me and ask if it’s in my “definitely answer soon” category.

      (It can take me months to publish an answer sometimes, unfortunately … but other times it takes a few days or less. My backlog is large and I don’t answer in order.)

  78. rubyrose*

    I’m just so angry right now I just need to vent.
    I got an incompetent manager a few months ago, when he was demoted by client request. He took the place of a manager who was promoted to take his place. They don’t get along at all. I’m spending more and more time doing double and triple reporting of my time, progress, roadblocks and it appears that neither of them have been reading or listening to anything I’ve been reporting until 2 days ago, when I bluntly stated everything in an email to them, the PMO, and another manager who has not been staying on top of his work that directly effects me. I mean, I literally had to state “Action items have been open for months with no results. I have no idea when I will have the information from them to do my work. You want me to have everything wrapped up by end of April. I see the train wreck coming. There is only one of me and your time frames are unrealistic.”
    Fortunately their manager is trying to rectify. I used to stress over this type of thing, thinking it was my fault. I’m past that, but now the situation just makes me angry. I just don’t know how much longer I’m willing to put up with this.
    Thanks for listening. Have to go back to work now.

  79. SQL Coder Cat*

    Anyone have any suggestions for dealing with public speaking jitters?

    Background: one of the biggest conferences in my field is coming up in two weeks. Conference presentations range in level from high level and generally applicable, to highly focused and technical. I had recently completed a very complicated technical project and applied to present a tips and tricks session regarding that. Because the area is very technical, I was expecting a small audience (when I’ve attended previously, these types of presentations have had between 10-25 people in attendance) and I’ve never had any issues with public speaking. BUT- I just checked my session signups, and I’ve got over 200 people registered to attend! I’m sitting at my desk with my stomach in knots feeling like I want to throw up. I’ve never done a presentation to such a large group, and this talk is going to be very technical and somewhat dry. I’m absolutely terrified that I’m going to have a bunch of non-technical people in the audience who will be bored out of their minds. How do I calm down (and stay calm) until my talk? What do I do if people get bored? What if they get up and leave while I’m presenting? Help!

    1. Hilorious*

      That sounds scary, but I believe you can do it! It’s much better than the opposite problem- no one wanting to hear what you have to say.

      Believe me, if people weren’t interested in your topic, they would not sign up for your session!

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      The first thing to remember, if the size of attendance is what’s causing the brunt of your nerves, is that not everyone who registers will show up. I always expect about a 50% drop off. People tend to sign up for everything and then the day of, just go to what interests them the most. So, the people that will be there are people who most likely want to hear your “dry, technical” presentation. I would kick off the presentation by forewarning that it will be dry and technical, so those who don’t enjoy that style or aspect can opt out and leave early. If people leave, don’t be offended. It’s not about you personally, it’s about their interest in the subject at hand.

      The best way for me to prep for public presentations is to review the materials until I know it inside and out. That way, if I get flubbed on one of my slides or lose track of my script, I know the subject well enough to talk off-the-cuff or veer me back on script.

      You’ll do great! Good luck!

    3. The Not Mad But Sometimes Irritable Scientist*

      “I’m absolutely terrified that I’m going to have a bunch of non-technical people in the audience who will be bored out of their minds. How do I calm down (and stay calm) until my talk? What do I do if people get bored? What if they get up and leave while I’m presenting? Help!”

      First off, stop imagining worst-case scenarios. Assume that they know what they’re signing up for and that they’re interested in what you have to say.

      Second, you cannot control the reaction of every person in the audience. Just accept that some may get bored, some may get up and leave (maybe because they’re bored, maybe because they have to pee), some may be distracted, some may not be technical, some may just need some fresh air. It’s tremendously freeing, as a public speaker, to realize that even when you’re the focus of attention, it’s not all about you. You can’t reach all the people all the time.

      Third, practice, practice, practice. The quality of your presentation and your comfort with the material is all you’ve got in your control.

      1. SQL Coder Cat*

        Thanks, I needed that reminder. The number was just so high I switched into full panic mode. My abstract makes it very clear that this is a technically oriented presentation, so if people show up expecting something else, there really isn’t anything I can do.

        I’ve run through my talk about 2 dozen times so far, and will probably get another 6 or 7 in before I actually present. I’m pretty happy with where I’m at- I’m down to just 4 notecards, which I’m just using to remind myself of the little details I want to be sure and include at various points. I’d love to be able to present completely notecard free, but even if I was to give my talk today, I’d be looking at the audience 98% of the me and I’m okay with that.

        1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          Also, at some point, practice is a declining return on time investment. The night before and day of, I’d prioritize relaxing and enjoying other people’s talks and generally not obsessing. Notecard free is nice but not critical. My read is, at this point, psyching yourself out is the potential fail point.

          Sounds like you got this!

    4. Not Australian*

      A friend of mine passed on a good tip; speak ‘personally’ to every third person on the front row … i.e. start off by talking to the person on the far right, then move your eyes three or four places left and speak to them for a while, and continue until you reach the end of the row. Then move back a row or two and move left to right, again addressing every third or fourth person. Slowly sweep the room like this, and if you get to the end of the room before you get to the end of the talk you can come back and start with the front row again, only picking out different individuals. Not only does it make your talk seem more personal but it also gives you a rythm and a pattern to follow which will ease your nerves a bit – and you should start picking up ‘receptive’ signals from individual audience members, too. This is definitely a case of ‘fake it till you make it’…

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Take some Pepto for your stomach, please.
      I know it’s psychological but things in our minds do become physical. The Pepto can be working while you are thinking.

      So since you are worried about them not being very technical you can do a couple things.
      At the beginning remind them that this is a technical presentation. Tell them that folks with x experience or y training will probably get the most out of your talk.
      Going the other way, you could ask for a show of hands, “how many people have x experience or y training?” Then you would have a fair idea of who you are presenting to.

      If they get up and leave during your presentation, please, let them. I think there are laws about holding people against their will.

      People will get bored. One trick speakers use is audience participation. Instead of waiting to the end for questions, why not do a section then ask if there are any questions on that section. After you do the questions, move to the next section. It will help to break up the drone of your own voice, it will give you clues as to how they are processing what you are saying and it will probably be more interesting to them.

  80. Hilorious*

    I got a job offer and I’m in the process of negotiating (via email because that’s what the HR person asked for– not ideal but it is what it is).

    It goes so against my nature to ask for what I want, and I’m so anxiety ridden. Here’s hoping I get good news soon!

    3. NYC Redhead*

      Fingers crossed for you. I would love to do negotiations over email, FWIW. I am much firmer and demanding in writing than over the phone or in person. Plus, I would think there is less chance of miscommunication.

    4. Hilorious*

      I got it! I didn’t get everything I asked for but they met me in the middle!

      Thanks for the good vibes!

  81. Volunteer Coordinator in NOVA*

    How do people deal with mental health issues impacting their work life? My OCD and panic attacks have been acting up (I’m currently in treatment for it all) and I’m feeling so unproductive at work. I’m letting myself get anxious over people’s small comments which aren’t really that bad but I just can’t get them out of my mind. I work in an office with about 10 people and yesterday, I skipped eating lunch with people because I was just feeling so stressed and anxious and it became a “thing”. I just wanted to sit in my office and not have to be a social person but then someone said something to me about not being at lunch. I just said I had a lot going on but than I started thinking about that on top of everything else I was already anxious about. I’m also just not feeling super productive as I keep getting overwhelmed by everything on my plate which isn’t helping as I keep putting more and more off. I know there probably isn’t a solution that is a fix it all but if anyone has any ideas, I’d love to hear them. Thanks in advance!

    1. MegaMoose, Esq*

      Google “Captain Awkward Depressed at Work” – that article made me cry the first time I read it because I related so hard to what she was talking about.

      1. Venus Supreme*

        Thank you for this. I feel like I’m in the same situation as Volunteer Coordinator. I have pretty bad SAD and I constantly feel like I don’t belong in the social setting here (which I know is my general anxiety/depression flaring up)

    2. Amber Rose*

      I wish I had advice but honestly this has become a bit overwhelming for me lately too, where I just sit at my desk and all I can manage is breathing, and I had an appointment with my doctor yesterday about it. Hopefully some other people will chime in with some good ideas that we can both use.

      In the meantime, fistbumps of solidarity. Working with mental health issues can be brutal.

      1. Volunteer Coordinator in NOVA*

        I totally get the sitting there just trying to breathe. I finally had to change the background on my laptop as I was getting tired of just staring at the same thing! Sending lots of positive thoughts your way!

    3. Manders*

      I have the same problem with needing lunch time to recharge instead of being social. I’ve just been coming up with excuses like “Oh, I just don’t get hungry until 1 pm/I already ate at 11 am!” instead of telling everyone all the details.

      I’m also trying to modify my diet so I’m eating more protein and fiber, because my panic attacks often start with my blood sugar getting too low. And when I’m feeling really bad, I duck into the storage room and clean. Being on my feet and focused on a physical activity helps.

      1. Volunteer Coordinator in NOVA*

        That’s a good thought about blood sugar as I don’t really eat much breakfast so I’ll try and switch that up next week and try it. Thanks!

        1. Manders*

          That could help! I also have a bad habit of not eating breakfast and then feeling lousy around 11 am.

          I find it easier to manage my anxiety disorder when I’m taking care of the physical problems that can leave me feeling tired and shaky. For me, panic attacks usually start with my body feeling physically bad, and then my brain jumps in with all the reasons I must surely be dying.

    4. Temperance*

      Commenting to follow and commiserate. I find myself slipping and making mistakes, and that’s fueling anxiety that’s leading me to spin my wheels. Sucks.

      1. Volunteer Coordinator in NOVA*

        It’s a really awful cycle and can be so hard to get out. Always good to know that you’re not the only one but I’d rather be in a cooler club :)

        1. MegaMoose, Esq*

          This club definitely needs better t-shirts. The one I got hasn’t been washed in way too long, and it definitely makes my butt look big. How does a t-shirt even DO that?

          1. Volunteer Coordinator in NOVA*

            Funnily enough, I’ve been researching tshirts for the last three hours for work!

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I had panic attacks where I would lock up in the middle of the grocery store or while driving.

      There are so many things you can do to help you.

      1) Make sure you are hydrated. Lack of water feeds panic attacks. Make water your best friend.

      2) Eat. I know you don’t want to. What I used to do is tell myself, since I don’t want to eat I will eat something healthy so I can have a better day tomorrow. If I don’t want to eat anyway it does not matter if I eat something I would not want to eat ordinarily because at that point ALL food was YUK. Might as well have something healthy and be done with it.

      3) Breathing exercises. Practice them at home in calm moments. Practice them before you fall asleep, you will probably sleep better. Breathe in through your nostrils and out through pursed lips. Let it go out reeeal slow. Practice this. When the panics start, go right to your breathing exercise.

      4) Look up. I always looked down at my shoes. Look up, look around the room. Identify things in the room around you until the panic goes out. There’s the door, there’s the window, there’s the shelves, etc. I did this exercise less than six times and my panic attacks dropped by 90 percent. Yes, this is super, super hard. The first time, it’s scary.The next time is a tiny bit easier. By the third time, it would stop when I lifted my head.

      5) If you have been using fake sugars, stop. This was the first change I made and the attacks dropped by at least 40%. (#4 wiped out 90% of what remained.)

      Within the last year the panics came back in a very tame way. Long story short, I was dehydrated. I loaded up on water and that ended it.

      For the big picture, much of anxiousness is not having a plan or having information. You know the things that trigger your anxiousness. In calm moments, go one by one and build a plan or collect info to go up against something that is causing that anxiousness.

    6. Dizzy Steinway*

      Not sure if you’ll see this but I have a self-care kit in my desk – it has a book of breathing exercises, nice hot chocolate, hand warmers and other little treats.

      Also, it’s okay to need to have lunch by yourself, and you don’t have to explain!

    7. winter*

      (Part ripped from Captain Akward, part own experience).

      1) Stay as much as possible on top of how you look (clean, appropriate clothes and hair mostly). It will make you look competent and you can circle back to it: “At least I look put-together.”
      2) Keep your desk generally clean/organized (not perfect). Same reasons as 1.
      3) Focus on stuff that’s good for you. Use whatever self-care you have available at home. Even if you feel unproductive, allow yourself short breaks at work, either to stretch your legs a little or take some deep breaths. You can also go to the bathroom to get some moments to yourself where you don’t feel watched and can just breath.
      If this makes you feel guilty: We are not machines. Humans actually work better when they are rested and stress is kept to a reasonable level.
      4) If that seems helpful, do one “people-y” thing a day: Start a chat with a co-worker or compliment them on an item of clothing/desk decoration. The idea: Counteracting any feeling of self-conciousness or being the odd one out. Of course that won’t fix everything in the short term, but you can tell yourself that you just did one thing that makes you more approachable/part of the team.
      5) Figure out if there’s anything work-related that would make you look especially bad if it didn’t get done/especially put-together. Focus on getting that done. I’m thinking about tasks that are especially visible to your higher-ups or a weekly status of things you got done.

      I generally found that there are people who are much less hard-working than me even when I felt shitty and my performance was thus negatively impacted. When you’re not at work, maybe give yourself a moment to consider if it’s actually that bad or if it only feels that bad/you don’t know. If you’re really unsure, you could also ask your manager for feedback. (Not “I’m sure I’m screwing up, tell me.” More like “I wondered if my output is meeting the expectations. Would you mind giving me some feedback if there’s something I should be working on?”)

  82. Anonygoose*

    I work as a university administrator. In my department there are 12 of us, all doing the same job. Most people are ‘permanent’ but due to some university bureaucracy, there are 3 of us that are temporary. I’ve been here the longest of all the temporary admins. A permanent position has just come up, and I believe all three of us will apply for it. I am soon-to-be married, but young with no children. One of the other temp workers is a single mom, and the other is married with a child. My coworker keeps telling me that one of the other two will probably get it because they ‘need it more’, because they have kids. I have been here the longest and believe I am the highest-performing, but as the hiring manager is a mom with kids, I don’t know if she will subconsciously take that into consideration. How can I try to make sure that I am fairly considered for this role?

    1. 574Girl*

      There are always potential biases in hiring. I know someone who got a leg up on their job hunt because they went to the same college as the hiring manager. I know someone else who went to church with the hiring manager. In the end, you can’t control the biases of the person hiring you.

      I would give them, however, the benefit of the doubt. Prep the best resume and cover letter that you can and go for it. I would also suggest that you remember that when you are internally interviewing, it is critical to treat it as thought the person you are speaking too doesn’t know what you do all day.

      Sell yourself to the best of your ability. You can’t control the background thoughts of your interviewer and you’ll go nuts if you try.

    2. Murphy*

      I wouldn’t worry about it. It’s possible that that could happen, but I would hope they wouldn’t make their decisions that way. (And if it is, there isn’t anything you can do about it.) I would just highlight your accomplishments, what makes you a higher performer, in your application and let your work speak for itself.

    3. Emi.*

      To my mind, it just sounds like this coworker doesn’t know how hiring works. Unless they’re saying it’s been done that way in the past, I think you should just put it out of your mind and submit your best application!

  83. BlueWolf*

    Last year when I was looking for jobs, a family member sent my resume to his company. They weren’t hiring for any suitable positions for me at the time, but they did apparently keep my resume on file. The family member recently reached out to let me know that they were hiring for a position and they were wondering if I was interested. It doesn’t look like they’ve even posted the position online yet.

    The thing is, I just started a new job about five months ago. I am content in my current position and not necessarily looking to change jobs, but he said it might be worth seeing what they are offering. I told him I’d think about it. The position would be a bit different than what I’m doing now and it’s in a different industry. All I have is the job title and no other information at the moment, although I think he likes working there. My current company has pretty good benefits, the salary isn’t as high as I would like, but I think there’s room for growth. I maybe would consider a move for a higher salary, but I have no idea if this new position would offer that, and it would also depend on what the position entails.

    It’s nice to feel wanted, but I feel weird about even thinking about a job change so soon after starting my current job. Is it worth getting more information, and if so, is there a way to do it without wasting their time or going through a formal application/interview process?

    1. yarnowl*

      I feel like if you were upfront with your family member and told them, “I’d like to learn more about the position and what it’s offering, but I’m pretty content in my current position and want to make sure I find a job that’s the right fit before I leave, so no promises (or something maybe more professional)” then it wouldn’t hurt to learn more about it, and you wouldn’t be leading him on or making him think you’re committed to accepting the position.

  84. 574Girl*

    How do people deal with coworkers health issues when they are actively effecting your work? I have a coworker “Fred” who is going through some serious health issues. He will be out without notice and often is unable to be contacted. While I have tried to be sympathetic to his illness, I also feel completely trapped. The work that he is not available for is directly effecting my deadlines. Making matters more complex, we are colleagues, but do not work for the same manager. I have gone to my manager, “Betty” about these issues, and she is very sympathetic, but she does not manage Fred. Had anyone had success dealing with something like?

    I should add that even when Fred is here, he often misses deadlines and fails to follow through with assignments. I feel like I can’t mention these problems without it sounding as though I am not sympathetic to Fred’s health concerns. I am sympathetic, but I don’t like how I seem to keep cleaning up Fred’s messes.

    1. Amber Rose*

      It’s not about Fred or his issues though, it’s about the work that needs to be done. I think if you go to your manager and frame it as “I need these tasks done in order to do X, Y and Z. Can you talk to Fred’s manager and see if we can make sure these are done when Fred is absent?”

      It sounds like Fred’s manager should be re-assigning some stuff, and I think it’s fair to ask your manager to meet with his manager and work out what gets done by who in his absence. Just like if he was just on vacation.

        1. 574Girl*

          This is a really good way to frame it that I had not thought about. I like this language. Thank you.

    2. Imaginary Number*

      I’ve been there, although in my case the coworker was the team lead for a project that I was the only other person working on.

      How much does your work and Fred’s work overlap? Are you able to do what he does? Is there any way for you to take on some of his work (for things that are more pressing) in exchange for you giving up some work to him that is less pressing?

      1. 574Girl*

        Part of the problem is that our work ONLY overlaps in one area- Teapot Painting. Fred is head of the Teapot Painting Planning Team. Other than our shared work on this team, we have very little work overlap. However, I and the two other members of the Teapot Painting Planning Team have ended up dealing with all the Teapot Planning duties, as Fred is unavailable.

        As the Teapot Painting Planning has to happen, I and the other team members are covering for Fred, lest out Teapot Painting end up looking disastrous and reflect badly on our own organization.

    3. Sadsack*

      Has your manager contacted Fred’s manager? Can you ask her to? Don’t worry about bring sympathetic, I am sure you are sympathetic. Just state the facts if how your work is impacted by the delays. Ask your manager if she’ll do it or if she wants you to do it.

  85. April Anon*

    What would you do if you found an inappropriate post on a colleagues social media account? (The post in question says: I’m tired of people talking about the “fentanyl epidemic”. It’s shouldn’t be a public health crisis. Unless someone forces you to use against your will, it’s a person’s own choice. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. We should be wasting government time or money on this. If anyone overdoses, it was their choice. There are consequences to using drugs.) I’m really uncomfortable and thinking about going to HR or our manager. We are peers (both of us are accountants. Big 4 if it makes any difference). TIA.

      1. LCL*

        I think if you went to HR or management with this you will look exceptionally stupid. Unless your business is a chain of rehab facilities. The quote shows that he isn’t calling out any specific identity group, or using bad language, or advocating a violent solution. Obviously he isn’t very compassionate towards drug addicts, is that a requirement of his job? You could talk to him about it, but you might not want to. He may have a personal background of live(s) ruined by addiction and he could become defensive and angry.

    2. Malibu Stacey*

      In your case since it doesn’t seem to appear to have anything to do with her job and isn’t racist, sexist or homophobic, I would leave it alone.

      1. Imaginary Number*

        I strongly second that. I would NOT go to HR or anyone about it. What he’s sharing might be callous, but it’s a political opinion that isn’t disparaging against a particular race, gender, sexuality, etc.

      2. MegaMoose, Esq*

        Yeah, I’d let it go. It’s a jerkwad opinion (in my opinion), but I don’t think it’s concerning the way something discriminatory might be.

    3. Amber Rose*

      Unless they read it out loud to you at work or is otherwise being disruptive at work over this matter, this isn’t a work related issue and none of HR’s business. If you don’t like what you read on this person’s social media account, the best response is to stop reading their social media posts.

    4. Emi.*

      I think that’s a terrible thing to say, but I don’t think you should bring it up at work. It’s not work-related and didn’t happen at work, so just block them and move on. :(

    5. Creag an Tuire*

      This might be different if you worked in public health or another field where this comment has work implications, but, TBH, this is a somewhat distasteful political opinion but not one that rises to HR levels.

    6. Oscar Madisoy*

      I agree with what others have said. What someone posts on Facebook is none of their employer’s business. There are legitimate exceptions, of course – such as the famous incident where a girl posted “I start my new job [at a day care center] today, but I absolutely hate working at day care” and was subsequently told not to come in.

      Mind your own business.

    7. OhBehave*

      What you find inappropriate is his personal opinion. This would be akin to going to HR because he posted a political slam against someone you support.
      As others have said, unless you work for a drug counseling center or some such, it’s really none of your or HR’s business.

  86. Venus Supreme*

    Does anyone here work in social services? My boyfriend is a manager for a group home for adults living with disabilities. I’m wondering what’s the norm regarding work schedules and payroll.

    Payroll: When boyfriend was an assistant manager, he was paid hourly plus time and a half for overtime and holidays. Now, as a manager, he’s salaried. He’s expected to hit a minimum of 40hrs/week otherwise his pay is docked, but since he’s salaried he doesn’t get paid overtime. Boyfriend also has the on-call phone with him and he has to answer it 24/7 (including one staff who calls every night at 4AM asking where such-and-such is…) This doesn’t include part of his 40hrs because he needs to punch in at the house for his time to count. He also doesn’t get reimbursed when he has to travel to check up on other group homes. He also gets direct deposit and no physical pay stub. I don’t know what the new norm is since my org still hands out live checks.

    Work schedules: This is the type of job where there needs to be staff at the house with the clients around the clock, whether or not there’s a state of emergency. There’s a rule that if a staff is more than 15 minutes late without a heads-up it’s a “no-call, no-show” and it’s grounds for termination. Boyfriend’s assistant manager has shown up more than 45 minutes late and because she’s friends with the district supervisor she’s been let off with warnings. So clearly the policy isn’t that rigid… Also, staff can’t leave their shift despite personal emergencies. There was one instance, when Boyfriend was still an assistant manager, where a coworker’s grandmother was in a car wreck and she couldn’t leave the house to go to the hospital. Grandmother ended up passing away. I would think, in issues like this, the manager of the house would cover the employee’s shift. They’re accessible 24/7 via the on-call phone anyway.

    I don’t know if this particular company is super backwards or if this is somewhat of the norm for community service organizations. Thoughts?

    1. Natalie*

      “He’s expected to hit a minimum of 40hrs/week otherwise his pay is docked,”

      This is illegal, regardless of whether or not it is the norm. If an employee is exempt (not eligible for overtime) they have to be paid on a salary basis and you cannot dock their pay unless they are absent for an entire day. You can charge time against their PTO, but if they don’t have PTO or used it up you’d have to pay them their full salary.

      Outside of California they don’t have to reimburse him for mileage, but if he keeps track of his own mileage he may be able to take a deduction for it.

      He may be required to be provided a pay stub, it depends on your state. He may also want to check if he is getting electronic stubs (i.e. through ADP or similar).

      All of that said, regardless of whether or not this is the norm it sounds terrible. If it is in fact the norm that doesn’t mean he just has to quietly accept whatever shitty deal is being offered to him.

      1. Venus Supreme*

        That was my thinking too. I work in nonprofit fundraising, so I’m used to working overtime without being paid, but our organization compromises with some flexibility in our hours. This is the first time he’s salaried and I told him it’s fine if he’s only at 37 hours for the week, especially if he was at 50 hours the week before and that’s what he told me. My org is also keeping timesheets just in case that FLSA rule is reinstated retroactively, and I told him he should at least keep his own records and include X number of hours on phone, etc. just in case they pull any funny business. We’re in NJ, if that matters.

        I agree, I’m not a fan of this organization… They told him he wasn’t allowed to negotiate salary when he first started working there and I told him he should have been able to.

      2. zora*

        They ESPECIALLY can’t dock his pay if he is answering the on call phone and that time is not being added to his timesheet. Between those two things: Super illegal. He should be getting the base 40 hour pay every week regardless.

        Also, the on call pay requirements differ by state, that is also something to check on. Calling the DOL phone number is a good way to start, they can do a better job of explaining the law in your jurisdiction.

        1. Natalie*

          Since they are treating him as exempt, they likely don’t need to pay him any extra for being on-call. They’re still taking advantage, of course.

          1. zora*

            Right, but docking pay is illegal in and of itself, so the way they are tracking hours might require that on-call hours be taken into account. I just think he should make sure to mention the on-call work done when calling the DOL.

    2. harp+dash*

      I’m a social worker, and I have worked at agencies where they do supportive living, but I have not worked in that part of the field myself.
      Supportive living is really, really difficult, and really, really underpaid (even for social work! which says something). The turnover is ridiculous because your boyfriend’s experience as a group home manager is unfortunately typical of the long hours and expectations. At the agency I used to work for, they had staff in jobs like his at an hourly rate, because otherwise no one would stay in the positions without getting paid overtime. Has he considered looking at other agencies in your area? Where I live there are a few different agencies who do this type of work.
      Also, my hat’s off to him, because I’ve done a lot of work that most people would NOT under most circumstances do, but supportive living is not one I have ever been willing to tackle.

      1. Venus Supreme*

        Thank you so much. Yeah, I’m incredibly impressed/proud of what he works with on a daily basis and he can still keep a positive (lol, most of the time) attitude! I’ve been trying to get him to look at other similar jobs but he’s scared of looking like a job hopper (he’s been at this org for over a year, but in this position for a couple months). Considering the high turnover rate, I’d think that it’s OK. I’m not sure though. He doesn’t have many peers in his field or anyone he could ask these career-related questions to.

  87. The work Fairy*

    I just had a second interview for a job that looks like a great opportunity and i received an email saying i am a “very strong candidate”. I am hopeful!
    However, I realized I still have a lot of questions about the job descriptions, objectives, how performance will be measured, etc. I am not sure why I did not ask them during the interview, I guess I thought there would be another meeting but it does not look like there will be. If (big “if”) they make me an offer, is it ok to ask to discuss it again, meet the team, etc?

    1. fposte*

      It depends on the job and the level–the higher the level, the more leverage you have. And is this a field where those metrics are regularly communicated to candidates? Because that’s not necessarily the norm, so you don’t want to go down this road if it’s not part of your field’s map. Meeting the team isn’t unreasonable, but you want to factor the impact of a request like that on the time between offer and acceptance and what you mean by “meeting”–if they have to find time on the schedule to block out for four people and a discussion with you, that could involve a fair amount of delay, which could be a problem, but if you’re just talking about saying hi, that’s not likely to give you additional information.

      1. The work fairy*

        Thanks for the answer. The position they are hiring for is newly created, and it is a young company where a lot of processes/SOPs needs to be in place to help create manageable growth. I feel like the “metric” for performance would be a bit vague, because this would be Quality Assurance. It is the fuzziness of the situation that makes me uneasy. If the goals are not super clear to me, and I don’t even think they are to them, would it be a leap of faith to say “I can do it”?
        I see what you mean about meeting the team and else, I had not considered that.

        1. fposte*

          My problem is that what you’re asking could range from questions about important information that should already have been conveyed to you if the employer knew what they were doing to anxiety-type questions that need a degree of certainty jobs don’t often give in advance. I think I’d have to be in your industry to have a better idea where on the spectrum this falls, so I’m reluctant to guess.

          But given what you’re saying, there’s a risk this isn’t a good fit for you and it sounds like you’re okay with walking away if it’s not. So it might be worth a response that says hey, thanks, I’m definitely interested–can we have a quick phone discussion about some aspects of the big picture for the position, since we didn’t have time to get to that in the last conversation?

          1. The work Fairy*

            Oh man you have me figured out! Some of the questions definitely stem from my nature to overthink/worry/have anxiety… And a lot of them I feel would have no answer. I really would want this to work! But I feel like any new job that are a bit of a step up take a bit of “let’s just try and figure it out on the way”. we will see, I am getting ahead of myself anyway since they haven’t made an offer yet.

  88. AvonLady Barksdale*

    I just got the nicest email from a client. I met him in person yesterday at a presentation that I attended just to observe (and meet the clients), and he wrote me a lovely note about how nice it was to meet me and he’s sorry he didn’t say goodbye properly. I think I might cry.

    1. SophieChotek*

      That is nice. I’m glad you got a nice moment; as I recall this has been a difficult time for you (with the house-selling issues…?)

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Aw, thank you! The house stuff has been mercifully quiet this week. I’m mostly completely touched for Work Reasons– I’m only three months in at this job, I really enjoy it, but I still feel like I’m learning the ropes and I’m not settled yet. It’s a new industry for me, and I’m just constantly impressed with how generous and welcoming people are. My last gig was at a place where I never got my footing and was always told that I was wrong. This is a very welcome change, and a note like that just made my week.

  89. fposte*

    I thought this advice to people who wanted to work with marine mammals as trainers and keepers was absolutely fascinating–I love the pragmatics of fields completely unlike my own:

      1. The IT Manager*

        Link fail … I can’t open it: “This page can’t be displayed”

        I don’t think it’s because it’s blocked by work.

        1. fposte*

          Opens fine for me both by clicking and copy/paste into another browser–I bet your work blocks Tumblr.

        1. Umvue*

          Wow, I totally misread that as being in the vein of “drink in moderation.” Link responsibly, kids! Don’t link and drive! Etc.

          1. fposte*

            Heh. I love things like that. Whenever PBS says a show is funded by VIEWERS LIKE YOU I get all excited that viewers like me.

            1. Natalie*

              Whenever one of our local sports teams is playing, the bus marquee’s add a little “Go [Sports Team]” line to the standard information – i.e. “Go Vikings”, “Go Twins”. My favorite is the hockey team: “Go Wild.”

            2. Me2*

              Our local PBS (OPB!) used to have stuff funded by a local dental plan (which is now a much bigger insurance company under a different name) called ODS. We always heard it as “odious.”

  90. Rebecca*

    Happy snowy Friday here in PA!

    Weird things have happened this morning with our phones…I have a missed call on my work phone from ex-PHB, who is no longer employed here. It’s her name and phone extension, except her office is empty. It startled me, and I actually went to her old office to see if for some reason she was here. It’s still dark and empty (like her soul). Then a coworker sent me an IM asking me what I wanted, and I replied with ???, so she said “I’m on a conference call, and you called me”. Except I didn’t. It’s a ghost in the machine, I tell ya.

    I am happy at my job and with my work for the first time in years…gotta throw that out there.

    :)

  91. Jan Levinson*

    Just wanted to take a moment to thank my wonderful coworker.

    I am a huge basketball fan, and he just gave me free tickets to BOTH of the Big 12 tournament games tonight! (and, my favorite team is still in it!)

    Super pumped. Happy Friday, everyone!

  92. discarvard*

    Time to vent: I just got turned down from an awesome job. The people were so smart and kind, the mission was awesome, the location was great. I made it to the second round of interviews- yay! – but that’s kind of cold comfort as I go through my day in retail. I asked for feedback- with luck that will come through.

  93. Connie-Lynne*

    I mentioned last week that my husband passed recently and unexpectedly and, amongst all the other terribleness, I had to reschedule a job interview.

    I got the job. I start April 10, and they are letting me come in part-time and onboard slowly.

    3. SophieChotek*

      Congrats and hurray for a company that allowed you to reschedule.
      I am so sorry about the unexpected passing of your husband; condolences.

    5. Liane*

      I am so sorry about your husband. I missed your original post. I hope the new job works out well for you. They sound good, making it easy for you to get started at a rough time.

    6. New Bee*

      I’m so sorry for your loss. I hope the new job is a distraction from all of the terribleness.

    7. OhBehave*

      I’m so glad to hear you got the job and that you’re able to ease into it like this. Remember to give yourself some grace while learning some new processes.

  94. purple anon*

    I have a question I’m not sure anyone can answer, but weigh in would be appreciated.

    My parents are being posted to the opposite side of the country (Canada). I have the opportunity to give up my job and go with them free of cost. But my fear is that I won’t be able to find a job if I do that. It took me eight months to find my current job (admin assistant at a university). My job history looks like this:
    8 months (temp)
    15 months (temp)
    1 year (temp)
    2 years (current job, permanent not temp)
    So I have about five years experience now as an admin. I’m not sure I want to be an admin forever, but I don’t know what else I’d like to do. My current job isn’t too bad – three weeks vacation, health and dental, pension plan, and decent pay, though I wouldn’t mind being higher for obvious reasons.

    I live on my own, but I would have a really hard time not being in the same city as my parents, especially since we have other family (my siblings) out west as well. Also, the province I’m in isn’t doing very well economically but I don’t know whether there would potentially be more opportunity where they’re going – and of course, nothing is a guarantee when it comes to a job.

    What to do???

    1. fposte*

      Is the only possibility moving at the same time as your parents? What about searching from a distance saying that you want to move to be with family, and then moving when there’s a job?

      1. purple anon*

        The problem is that if I move now, it will be completely funded (literally, I won’t even have to pay for meals or a hotel room). If I move later, I have to come up with the money out of pocket to do so – which I don’t have.

        1. Anonygoose*

          But presumably you could live with your parents temporarily out there at a later date, the same as you would be doing now? In that case, there wouldn’t be that many additional costs to moving… Accommodation and food are the biggest ones, and you would forgo that entirely by living with your parents when you arrive (regardless of if it is now or later). You could also have some more time to save for the cost of moving.

    2. CDN-Anon*

      Truly, it depends on which city and which industry.
      Halifax, to work in tech? That’s going to be tough.
      Vancouver, to go into healthcare? Easier but pricey to live.
      Alberta, for petroleum engineering? Might work out.
      North? YMMV and housing and heat will be insanely expensive.
      Good luck.

    3. LCL*

      You asked for opinions, so here is mine. It’s only opinion!!!
      Take your parents out of the equation. Which city do you want to live in more? And which has better economic prospects? If you stayed where you are and lost your job, do you have enough of a network so you wouldn’t be homeless?

      More opinion-you are old enough and at the right stage of life to become more independent. One of my greatest regrets in life is I never moved out of the region I grew up in.

      1. Anonygoose*

        Yeah, it might be good for you to be a bit more independent! It’s one of these things that is truly ‘fake it until you make it’… If you haven’t lived away from your parents yet in your life, you might find that you enjoy it and are able to do things you never thought you could. Not to mention, you might have a bit more free time to pursue new hobbies. I know that I always have more fun on weekends when I’m not near my parents, because instead of feeling obligated to visit them and do things with them, I explore my city, go to festivals, concerts, try new hobbies, new restaurants, visit nearby towns… I never would have discovered that about myself if I hadn’t moved away at some point (now it’s coming back that’s been the hard part).

    4. FDCA In Canada*

      It sounds like your parents are government/military, and you’re going from the East Coast to somewhere in the west. Is the place they’re going economically viable? Check really really really well beforehand–as much as you possibly can–and start putting out feelers now, well ahead of any potential moves. Do you know anyone in the target city whom you can sort of pick their brains, work-wise? You might be jumping out of the frying pan into the fire, work-wise. Would you be OK if you got there and were unemployed for several months again?

      Think about not where your family is, but what you yourself want–and it’s OK if your family is part of that, but make sure they’re not the only or biggest part. Being more independent might be a great thing for you–and if you don’t have that much stuff accumulated, a move further down the line wouldn’t be too terribly expensive if all you were paying for was your own accommodations along the way and you had a place to live on the target end, if things end up going sideways where you are now and you really can’t handle it.

  95. Gracie*

    So I’m moving across country to be with my boyfriend in a couple months. We sat down and hashed out which would be the better move, comparing his job, my job, economy, cost of living and all that and decided that it would be better if I moved to his area.

    I’ll be leaving my job of 11 years and I’m not sure what to say when interviewers ask why I left. It wasn’t for the usual reasons of no growth etc because there is so I don’t want to lie but I don’t want to say “I left to move with my boyfriend” either. Any suggestions on what I should tell them when that question comes up?

    1. ASJ*

      I think this has been asked before. I seem to remember a simple “My partner received a job offer they couldn’t pass up” covers your basis.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Someone asked something similar upthread, and my advice is the same: don’t sweat it! I moved “for” my boyfriend when he was accepted to a PhD program in another state. A couple of things helped: we’d been together for a long time at that point (4 years? I lose track), we’d been living together since the beginning (long story), and I referred to him as my partner rather than my boyfriend. I was also 36 when I moved, and regardless of what that says about society on a macro level, I do believe my age meant that people were much more inclined to take my move seriously than if I’d been, say, 23 and with my boyfriend for less than a year.

      “My family and I moved to the area,” or even, “My partner got a job opportunity he couldn’t pass up” are both reasons you can use. Unless you’re moving to a very conservative area of the country, most interviewers I know wouldn’t bat an eye.

    3. Awkward Interviewee*

      I moved for my fiance earlier this year, and I was honest. In my cover letters I just said that I was planning a move to X area (I didn’t move until I got a job offer), and when asked in interviews I said I was moving to be with boyfriend or fiance (got engaged during job search). Interviewers seemed to receive it fine.

  96. Gene*

    Good questions to ask in a hiring interview – GO!

    I’ve dug through the archives and gotten some I like, but always need more.

    This is Civil Service hiring, so keep that in mind. Yes, I know it’s less than ideal, but…

    Seems someone in our HR group has decided that, like the initial panel interview, we need to have a set group of questions everyone is asked, in the same order. Unlike the panel, we will be allowed to go beyond the questions, but everyone must be asked these questions. And the questions have to be approved by HR. I SO want to slap someone right now, we know these people are qualified; we need to dig and see if they will fit with this small, eccentric workgroup.

    1. zora*

      Coworker questions? Like: tell about a time you had a disagreement with a coworker, what did you do? This could even be more hypothetical and specific about something that might happen in your office. “Your coworker (not your boss) comes to you and says it looks like you skipped a step in your job tasks yesterday. How do you respond?”

      “What would your ideal workday look like?” To see if they prefer focusing on one thing, or a variety of things, etc.

      “What is the coworker trait you have the hardest time dealing with?” You could probably word this better, but I’m thinking like I would answer “someone who doesn’t take ownership of their own job, and asks the same question over and over. I prefer to work with a high-functioning team where everyone is bringing their A-game”

    2. Huddled over tea*

      Most people I bring into non-entry level interviews are qualified – we wouldn’t bother if they’ve weren’t – so it’s pretty much always about fit and it’s actually useful to be able to compare two answers to the same question.

      If you have a question about how they organise their time, for example, and Wakeen says that he has a loose idea of his day and likes to keep things flexible and fit things in where he can and Fergus says he likes to block out his diary with tasks and keep a rigid To Do list with prioritisation in colours, you would probably know which works better with your workplace.

      Mine needs people like Wakeen but I know lots that want Fergus so I’m not saying one is better than the other, just that it’s useful to have them both answer some of the same questions to compare.

      Anyway, good questions for you might be what they’re looking to get out of this job, what was the best team they’ve ever worked with and why, how do they like to be managed, and what support/training do they think they’ll need most in the first 3-6 months.

    3. Tabby Baltimore*

      Okay, civil service, so I’m assuming we’re talking federal/state/county employment. Since I don’t know for what level you’re hiring at, here’s some questions I’d be asking, if HR was allowing me to “go off book”:
      *How have you handled professional setbacks (e.g., lowered budget/fewer personnel resources/disinterested seniors refusing the approvals you asked for)?
      *Have you ever had to participate in a budget cutting exercise? What was your role? On what bases did you make your decisions on where and how to cut?
      *How do you typically go about building professional inter-agency relationships? (You want to know if they make the effort to seek out their counterparts “across the aisle” on their own, or do they wait until there’s a professional need to do so, or do they wait until some professional event like a course, or a conference, where they’re thrown together with these counterparts, to initiate a relationship?)
      *How have you handled professional workplace conflicts, with co-workers, and with supervisors, in the past?
      *Have you ever successfully persuaded someone to do something that s/he was initially reluctant to do? How did you accomplish that?

  97. Elle*

    First time posting in the open thread!

    This is related to food allergies. Today, someone in my office used the microwave to make fish. I’m not allergic to fish. I am however allergic to shellfish. Normally, regular fish doesn’t bother me. This time, I started choking and coughing. I had to run outside to catch my breath. One of my coworkers said he thought it smelled like crab rathern than fish. My coworkers are aware of my allergies. In fact, it was brought up (by me) at a staff meeting (this past Monday) after my boss asked everyone to put their dishes in the dishwasher and before that, it was brought up last year in an email regarding the same thing.

    I guess what I’m asking here is: should I just suck it up and deal with the occasional choking/coughing fit, or talk with my manager about asking people not to cook any type of seafood?

    1. Murphy*

      You say people are aware of your allergies. I have never heard of cooking food in a microwave causing an allergic reaction. I believe you, but if I were that co-worker, it would never have occurred to me that that could be a possible consequence of my action. Are they aware that this could happen? If not, you might want to make them aware.

      1. Sadsack*

        Yes, it wouldn’t occur to me either that cooking the shellfish could be harmful. However, people react to inhaling peanut dust or whatever, so it makes sense to me. I think you should kindly explain what happened to whoever cooked the food and bring it up again to your group at your next meeting.

      2. SophieChotek*

        I am allergic to shellfish and honestly I wouldn’t have expected to have that reaction if someone decided to microwave their left-over shrimp. (Though i’ve always thought left-over fish smells so…extra fishy the next day.) I’m sorry that happened — it can be so scary to have those reactions and hoping you can get the eli-pen, etc. or that it won’t be that bad. Maybe just next time you bring it up acknowledge it was an unexpected reaction and ask people to be even more careful? (Or I don’t know…ensure you are not in the room when they microwave it? would it then dissipate quickly enough if you came in a bit later…)

    2. Rincat*

      I’d ask the person who brought the shellfish not to bring it, or at least not microwave it, because you had an allergy attack. I don’t think you should have to endure a choking/coughing fit! That sounds a lot more painful that just simply being averse to the smell. Sounds like you’ve addressed it as a group, but I’m sure some people will forget so I’d talk to them directly to help it stick in their minds.

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      Nooooo, you should not just suck it up! A mass email should be sent out with wording like “An employee at XXX is highly allergic to shellfish. Please DO NOT bring shellfish into the office.” Everyone should know, just to be safe. (Though most people are smart enough to not microwave fish at work…)

    5. A.Non.Nie.*

      Definitely say something! I’m just going to add that it’s Lent now, so people might be bringing in more fish/seafood than usual. I’ve definitely noticed more in my area (I live in a very Catholic area, though). I’m not saying you should just suck it up, but I’m saying it might be a temporary problem.

      1. Laura*

        Yes. But it’s an annual temporary problem. And while the time (duration) is the same, the timing is not.

        If that’s the case it might be helpful to ask TPTB to maybe send a reminder email before the time period that states something like “during this particular religious observance, we ask that you’re especially mindful of what kind of seafood you bring in, keeping in mind possible allergins and odors that may trigger certain sensitivities in an effort to make the workplace safe and accommodating to all.”

        Eh could use work but that’s not really my expertise.

    6. 574Girl*

      I agree that as someone with allergies to shellfish, I’ve never had this happen and it would never occur to me that it could happen with microwaving something like that. However, reactions are super scary and I am so totally sorry that you went through it.

      I don’t think it’s fair to ask people to not bring in any type of seafood. There are certain religious restrictions on diet (like Lent right now) and people still need protein.

      What I do think you should do is speak to your manager about it. I would also be curious how large your organization is. I frankly don’t think anyone in my Org knows I have a shellfish allergy. It only ever comes up at potlucks when I start asking about ingredients.

      Also, not every one realized crab is considered shellfish. Weird, but true. I had someone say to me, “But it’s not an oyster.”

      And I was like… Well.. no… but neither is shrimp and I can’t eat that either.

      1. JustaTech*

        I went to college with a guy who’s shellfish allergy was so severe that he couldn’t drink the tap water because it had too many (dead) microscopic crustaceans in it. So I could totally see inhaling the aerosols from the microwave could set a person off. Kind of like that guy who got a horrible lung disease from inhaling deeply every time he microwaved popcorn for several years.

  98. grammar police*

    How do you address a team member’s poor grammar in emails, especially if you don’t manage them? A typo here and there isn’t a big deal, but lately this TM is using incorrect S/V agreements, misspelling common words (to the point where he uses words that don’t even exist) and in general is sending very sloppy communication. I am not trying to be snobby here, but I believe business communication should be polished as it reflects on you. Thoughts?

    1. fposte*

      I can’t tell if you’re his manager/team leader or not. If not, I would deal by ignoring it; it’s an internal email.

      If you are his manager, I’d decide whether these are emails where it mattered or not–is this just reports to his team members, or is he presenting info on behalf of your unit outside of it? And if you decide it does matter, consider that the nature of the problem suggests that this is not a quick fix–this is somebody who struggles with writing. In the short term, you can ask him to compose emails in Word to detect spelling and grammar errors, but longterm, is writing important enough that the company will pay for coaching him? Do you want to make somebody else point person on communication to avoid the problem?

        1. fposte*

          Okay, then you don’t have standing to correct. You might be able to express your concern to your manager at some point, but then you have to let it go.

    2. SophieChotek*

      If it’s internal emails I’d ignore it, especially if you are not this team member’s emails.

      If it’s public-facing, then it is a bigger deal…but if you’re not this team-workers manager or in some other way tasked with correcting/editing, I’m still not sure if you have standing to correct or address it. People can be quite defense about their writing skills (or lack thereof. Witness the letter not long ago about intern who was bosses son and homeschooled…)

      1. Liane*

        Even with the external emails, I think the only way you would have any standing to address this (only with your manager) is if those recipients are bringing it up to you.

        1. Liane*

          And, yes, I realize it is a Big Annoyance to you. I am the same way–it’s what makes me good at proofreading and the like. I have had to learn to ignore typos, misspellings and so on, when it’s not one of my projects. I just tell myself, “Not my circus, not my acrobats.”

  99. Jumanji*

    I am the sole technical person hired specifically for a technical project by a non-technical department in a large nonprofit organization. My colleagues and bosses are all non-technical folks who have little to no background in the technical aspects of what I do. They are subject matter experts.

    My dilemma is I encounter issues that sometimes is best aired out or discussed and which having a sounding board will help me think through so I can develop a solution. These issues I hesitate to discuss with my colleagues and boss because it sometimes concern sticky problems or difficult issues that require a delicate balance because being straightforward with them has the potential of overwhelming or offending them. This has been the case when I tried the straightforward approach on a couple of issues as a test and my boss reacted badly and completely missed the point of what I was saying because he was focused too much on unnecessary detail and not on my main concerns. This is due, in part, because he has no background and understanding of the technical aspects of my job.

    I want to be able to help my colleagues and boss understand things better and not overreact or react in the wrong way to the wrong things. I need someone I can talk to about issues and get insights to talk things out. But communicating with them has been a challenge and I am losing patience with it and have started looking for other jobs where I am not a fish out of water. I am six months into the job so don’t know or trust anyone well enough yet to confide in them my frustrations.

    What do you recommend?

    1. CAA*

      That’s a hard position to be in. Can you find an online community where you can interact with others on the more technical issues?

      1. Jumanji*

        Thanks for the feedback. For certain things I have been using an online community. For others I have been using past colleagues. But certain things that are project specific and which involve proprietary information I can’t share externally I really need someone within our organization to talk to. I was thinking of airing this frustration with my boss and see what he suggests but I am afraid of another misunderstanding where I say “ABC” and he hears “XYZ” and proceeds to shoot the messenger. An example of an issue I need to talk over with internal people is Director X wants a specific technical feature on our website and keeps raising the issue. But we don’t have a budget for it. I’ve already told her unless she can come up with more money it is a no go. But she keeps raising the issue. What can I do to get her to either raise the needed money or quit pestering me with unrealisitic expectations?

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I’d lay out the costs of the project and ask her to let me know when the money is available.

    2. Connie-Lynne*

      Are these mostly technical issues that you deal with? Like, and you’re not all “how do I solve this” but “here are my options, how do I choose between a number of reasonable selections?” or “this frustrating thing I want to complain about to someone technical, I don’t want a fix, I just want to know that someone understands me?”

      If so you might try Hangops slack. Some of the channels are full of, well, brogrammers, but many are not. I’ll post the signup link in a response.

      2. Jumanji*

        It is more how do I solve this or here are the options as I see it. Which are the best ones? Are there options I do not see?

  100. Blue Fish*

    My burnout has become officially irreversible. I’ve lost any illusion that I will be able to do the work I was hired for. Instead, I am a professional hamster wheel runner. No matter how much I work, I can only do the same tasks week after week, month after month. You know how Cinderella’s step-mother tells her that she can go to the ball if she gets her chores done first, but then the chores just keep piling up and she’s left behind and can’t do anything? It’s like that, but instead of missing the ball (I can’t dance anyway), I miss the chance to use my strongest skills help my organization address serious problems for its future.

    Meanwhile, we’ve had 2/3 of our people leave in the handful of years I’ve been here, and Boss was a direct or indirect factor in almost all cases. I tried to navigate the tumult and keep my work going, but being overworked and understaffed made it impossible more often than not to keep my head above water. On top of that, it was frustrating to watch as important projects were postponed or not even touched because of staff problems.

    Recently we brought on some new people, and it seemed like Boss was committed to using their ideas and experience to help overcome some of these issues. One of my coworkers in particular was hired to help take some of my tasks and develop new strategies that could boost our sagging revenue and make changes to some rather entrenched issues. Rather than focus on making blue teapots the way we have for the last decade, for example, they were going to gather new design ideas, proactively work with teapot and tea cup makers, and help us raise our profile in the industry by setting up a tea cup making program with well-known ceramic groups.

    It seemed like we were finally all starting towards the right direction, and my hope and motivation rose accordingly. Our new team is fantastic and they all have brought great work and insight to the organization. But then, for various reasons that totally reinforce negative stereotypes of how unprofessional and dysfunctional small organizations can be, the Boss tightened their reins. Coworker has been told to scrap the tea cup program, to stop developing strategies with ceramic groups, and instead find a way to make not blue, but yellow teapots with our decade-old design. The parameters they were given are laughably unrealistic and look like a setup for failure. I’ve been given outright comments about firing and quitting (why Boss is even talking to me about their personnel decisions like this is an entirely different discussion). I’m a trapped onlooker in this. Meanwhile, nothing in my hamster wheel work has changed. I don’t have the energy to tread water anymore.

    With every fake-sympathetic comment Boss makes about the situation, my hope is turning to a sense of impending doom. I cannot change this situation for the better. Boss sighs for the hundredth time that it’s a shame I can’t do X or Y like we talked about, corners me to gossip about Coworker while claiming moral high ground, and asks me into meetings for “input” that turn into monologues of justification for a decision they’ve already made and won’t consider any input for. I feel utterly hollowed. It’s a constant battle to stay focused and on-task, and I swing between feeling horribly guilty about it to too exhausted to feel anything either way. I try to remind myself that this work helps clients, is for a good cause, has a positive impact–but I feel like I’m working for my Boss’s pet show, not for an organization or a cause that I can have any impact on.

    So job searching begins. I’m trying to remind myself that it’s like the lottery, and you can’t get a job/win if you don’t apply/play. But it reminds me of playing the lottery because it feels like the odds of hearing back from anyone, let alone be interviewed and offered a position that won’t similarly hollow you out, are about the same as getting a winning lottery ticket. Urgh.

    1. PollyQ*

      If you’re in the US, the job market is significantly better than it was even a few years ago, so your your odds of winning the lottery are much better. Actually, maybe scrapping the lottery metaphor would be a good mental exercise, since almost nobody wins the big prize, but most job-hunters do, eventually, find a position. Good luck!

      1. Taylor Swift*

        Yeah, happy Jobs Day everyone! I think in the U.S. we’ve broken the record for most consecutive months with jobs gains?

  101. To LinkedIn or Not To?*

    I don’t have a LinkedIn profile because I don’t have a very definite career path, nor do I have any particularly great accomplishments or skills. I don’t work in an industry known for “recruiting”, more like we take what we can get. Does anyone in a roughly comparable situation have any advice on whether joining LinkedIn actually makes a difference? Have you ever been contacted by a potential employer that led to anything like a job, or at least a lead? I look at other peoples’ profiles and can’t help feeling inadequate.

    1. Imaginary Number*

      I got my current job through LinkedIn. There was a recruiter reaching out specifically to a networking group I was in with a job description that matched me perfectly. It wasn’t about having an impressive-looking profile since he was going to look at my resume: it was about making that connection.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      If nothing else, it’s a good way to keep in contact with former coworkers and supervisors.

    3. Anxa*

      Oh man, sometime I wonder if this is why I am unemployed.

      I have a few reasons why I am not active on linked in:
      -I’m trying to break into three paths and I don’t want to look flaky
      -It’s kind of looked down upon in at least one of those paths
      -I hate it’s open-endedness. The endorsements feel so arbitrary and I’ll never feel comfortable soliciting them
      -I can’t do it. I know I need to reach out more to my so called network, but I feel like they are all moving on. 8 years after graduation and I still don’t have a real career, or even a full-time job. I feel like a failure and many of my friends are pretty smart. To date, I have yet to have as much going on in my life as I did in college, and none of my jobs after college have offered me challenges or experiences that I had as a student. I get so much anxiety about the showing off my loser status, that I just don’t do it. I know it’s probably just making the situation worse, and maybe if I can’t handle stress I really don’t have what it takes to be fully employed, but I still think it’s hard being underemployed. Of course I’m anxious about it. It’s a big enough challenge to use my references after a year of job searching. I figure if I can handle the references, I can allow myself to chicken out over LinkedIn.

      Also, there are some safety and privacy issues I don’t want to to get into now, but that also make it difficult.

    4. Elizabeth West*

      It really hasn’t for me–but my sister is all over it. She’s in marketing and claimed that recruiters comb LI for leads, and that it has a function where you can turn on a thing that alerts recruiters you’re looking for new opportunities (I have no idea what that is or if it’s available on the free version).

      She did give me some tips to make my profile more geared toward the kind of jobs I’m looking for. She said recruiters search it by keyword and I should put that kind of language in my profile. And if I can use that function with the free version, I might try it, since I’m not getting anywhere the regular way, especially for jobs out of state. :P

      I hope that helps even though I haven’t personally tried it yet. I feel the same as you–I’m trying to get out of the admin pool on pretty skimpy experience. :|

    5. JustaTech*

      Here’s my number one reason for having a linkedin: I’m terrible at names and remembering people I’ve worked with, so for me it’s basically how I keep track of people I might want as references in the future.
      the only real “effort” I’ve put into it (besides basically uploading my resume) was to ask my SO to take some decent headshots.
      I don’t look at anyone else’s profiles because either I know them and therefore whatever, or I don’t know them and don’t care.
      I’m sure I could do more with it, I’m not sure I would get more out of it.

      My SO did get his last job through LinkedIn, for what it’s worth.

    6. Apollo Warbucks*

      My last two jobs have come from recruiters looking me up on LinkedIn. I’m nothing special and my profile isn’t impressive and barley lists my previous roles and a few skills.

  102. Batshua*

    Policies keep changing here at work, and it’s the kind of thing I’m supposed to keep present in my mind at all times. I basically have a ton of sticky notes floating in my head that are constantly being edited. When I can’t remember everything and ask for clarification, my Lead treats me like I’ve not been paying attention. I *have* been paying attention, but it’s really hard to keep track of everything.

    What can I do?

    1. Hilorious*

      One thing I’ve done is use actual sticky notes. I made a big piece of paper that said “Loose ends” on one section and “Parking Lot” on another. On the top, I put sticky notes with all of the balls that were in the air, or in someone else’s court. On the bottom, I put things I was afraid of forgetting, but that weren’t on the docket for the next few days. Could you revise that idea? Basically, get things out of your brain and onto paper somewhere visible?

    2. Clever Name*

      Write all this stuff down, if it isn’t already. I have bits of info I have a hard time remembering (like one particular conversion factor), and I have it written on a sticky note. If these are all policies, shouldn’t they be written down somewhere anyway? Or is it more along the lines of “unwritten rules”? In that case, you can definitely write them down yourself. Have a notebook (physical or virtual like OneNote) or a sheet of commonly-referenced ones on a bulletin board. Anything that gets this info out of your head so you don’t have to expend energy keeping track mentally.

      1. Batshua*

        We get a lot of this stuff as emails, and while I flag them and try to keep my inbox clean, a lot of stuff gets lost in the shuffle.

    3. Fortitude Jones*

      I use the Note feature in Outlook to keep track of all procedural things in my division – it works very well.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Write it down and put a date on it.
      “As of March 11, when handling X do w not z.”

      Put it in a small note book you keep for such things.

  103. Nancy*

    We’ve had a new president come in and he, as normal, is re-structuring some departments/areas/jobs etc. He made it a point to meet with those in departments that would feel the biggest changes, mine was one of them. When I met with him, towards the end of our conversation, he asked me to take some time to think about where I think I fit and to come back to him in a few weeks. Now, I want to say, the general conversation was positive and encouraging. My mom thought perhaps he wanted to let me go. But I didn’t get that impression. To be transparent, I have been looking and interviewing for other jobs (I always make it to the last round and then no go) because I’m not longer happy performing my job and feel like my talents, skills, and passion fall elsewhere. I can also be honest enough that my job I can do, but I know others could do it better. Since I haven’t had much luck with recent job interviews and the small area I’m from doesn’t really present many opportunities in my field I’m hoping I can take the offer above and work with it. There are areas at my current job where I can apply my talents, skills and passion and I believe at a high level. But again, small non-profits sometimes don’t have room for growth or movement. I have scheduled an appointment with the President on Monday afternoon. My ultimate plan is to simply say (cutting out the small talk): ” When we last spoke you asked me to come back to you and give you an idea of where I fit. You may have meant where I find myself between the two roles I currently hold, but you also asked me to be candid and to feel comfortable speaking to you. If I’m being candid, then I have to say that my talents, skills and passion would better benefit this institution if I could work in an area more related to the community and students. I know that you are still working on changes, but if there would be room for me to work in that capacity I would love the opportunity.”
    Do you think I’m overstepping? Does it sound like I don’t want to do my job? Does it sound negative?

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      That’s not overstepping at all! He wants to know– I think he’d be very pleased if you told him. So few people are direct enough with superiors who are genuinely looking for information.

      1. Nancy*

        Thank you! My meeting got moved because of a schedule change, but I’m not too worried about it. I’ve prepared myself to answer several questions that could pop up, so just more prep time.

  104. MSquared*

    I have a job search question I really need some advice on:

    In January I saw a really interesting position on an organization’s website and I emailed my application materials to them on Jan. 6. I didn’t receive so much as a “Thank you for applying, we’ll contact you if we’re interested” email acknowledging that they’d gotten my materials. Now in the past week or two I’ve seen this job heavily promoted on many of the different networks I subscribe to.

    I’m worried that they didn’t receive my application since I got no response, or that they closed the job and are now re-opening it since there was almost a 2-month gap between when the position went up on their website and now when they’re promoting it. I really don’t want to miss out on this opportunity because it’s a really interesting job, I’m pretty qualified, and I’m desperate to leave my current job.

    On the organization’s website they explicitly state, “No phone calls or emails – we cannot confirm receipt of any application.” I know Alison has also said that calling to inquire about your application comes off as annoying and like you’re trying to subvert the application process. But, I’m really worried that my January application will not be considered/was not seen, so should I reach out to someone in the organization to ask if they received my application? Or should I re-submit my application, or just leave it be? I want to do the most professional thing possible while also ensuring that my application is seen.

    I posed this question to a career-oriented Facebook group I’m in an everyone seemed to say that I should re-submit – one person said I should write a new cover letter and resubmit. Thoughts?

    1. Sadsack*

      I’d just leave it be. You were explicitely informed to not contact them about applications because they cannot confirm receipt. If you call, they may just toss your application for not following clear instructions.

    2. fposte*

      Well, you definitely don’t call or email a place that said don’t do that. It’s also pretty common that places don’t acknowledge an application, though it certainly can be annoying.

      I don’t think they lost your January application; I think they weren’t happy with the applicant pool they got. I don’t think it’s the end of the world for you to resubmit an application (though I wouldn’t write a new cover letter unless something had changed substantially in the intervening time), but I would let it go after that.

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Don’t call or email.

      Writing a new cover letter and resubmitting seems reasonable though.

    4. Apollo Warbucks*

      If they say not to call or e-mail and they can not confirm your application was received then you’re not going to gain anything by calling or emailing them.

      If you want to try again the resubmitting your application would be the best thing to do in my opinion, but I’m sorry to say I think they will have got your application and decided not to move you forward in the process.

  105. Orca*

    I’m a super reactive cryer-stress, being overwhelmed, being angry, just starts the waterworks. My company is going through a difficult merger and this week has been terrible. However! Multiple times I’ve had to present the “involuntary reaction, pretend there are not tears happening” to people, using scripts I’ve seen mentioned on this site, and they’ve gone really well. Just a general “thanks AAM community!”

  106. MSquared*

    One other quick question: does anyone know of a reputable and helpful service that can advise you on your resume and cover letter? Or is Alison still offering that service at all?

    1. SophieChotek*

      I haven’t seen it lately. I hope she does sometime; I totally would buy the service too.

  107. Time-sensitive question--please help!*

    Last week, I was invited to an interview out of state. I asked to have a skype interview first, and they declined, so I flew out (at my own expense…it was very costly). The interview was on Monday and about 1 hour long, and they offered me the position by phone about 30 minutes later, and asked me to accept on the spot. I said I needed more information about salary, benefits, etc. That night, HR sent me an email with the salary, but no information about benefits, relocation, etc. He asked me to reply by noon the next day with my answer. I told him I still had more questions, and that I would be traveling home the entire next day from the interview (it took me a full day of flying and driving to get home). I have been emailing back and forth with HR trying to get my questions answered, and today I received an email that said I needed to respond with my answer by 3pm tomorrow (Friday) or they are pulling the offer. I still don’t feel all my answers about benefits have been adequately answered. They also refuse to confirm my start date (I asked if I could have some flexibility because I have an important project to finish up at my current job, and they were noncommittal). I am 5 years out of college, and this is not an entry-level position, but it’s also not Director level–it’s about midway up the chain.

    One more factor is that I have completed two other interviews for a different position, and they said they would tell me by next week Friday (March 17) if I am hired. I would probably prefer this position, if offered it, but it’s still not a sure thing.

    I have been applying for jobs for over a year. I do have a job right now, but it is a somewhat toxic environment and I am anxious to leave, and jobs in my field can be quite competitive. So, what should I do? I am scared to reject the first option, since it is a firm offer, but I would like to find out what happens with job #2 and compare my choices! Also, I’m a little turned off by the aggressive nature of the hiring process with job #1, and I’m wondering if this is a red flag.

    Would it be awful for me to accept position 1, and then turn it down next week if I’m offered the other job??

    1. The IT Manager*

      Would it be awful for me to accept position 1, and then turn it down next week if I’m offered the other job??

      Yes. That’s pretty bad and would burn that bridge. OTOH they’re not being great – you need to know your benefits and you deserve time to consider – so they’re actually showing some red flags. But two wrongs don’t make a right.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      The fact that they are pressuring you for a quick answer and dodging your reasonable questions are both huge red flags to me. I think you should decline the position and say “I cannot accept your offer until you answer my questions (and include those questions again).”

    3. MegaMoose, Esq*

      I really do not think it would be a good idea to accept position number one then turn it down next week. As for whether or not to take job number one: that’s tough. It sounds like they’re being very aggressive with hiring, and if they’re not answering your questions, that’s more concerning to me than the short timetable. The fact that they won’t confirm a start date is also really concerning – what would the impact be if you weren’t able to finish the project at your current job? I think you need to make your decision on job one as if job two doesn’t exist, because there’s no reason to assume that you’ll get an offer, but just because you want to move on and jobs are competitive doesn’t mean that job one is the place to go. Good luck!

    4. T3k*

      Don’t make the mistake of jumping from the frying pan into the fire here. They’re practically sending warning sirens in how they operate (pushy about wanting you to accept on the spot, then within the day, skirting around answering your questions about benefits, start date, etc).

    5. Creag an Tuire*

      I have been emailing back and forth with HR trying to get my questions answered, and today I received an email that said I needed to respond with my answer by 3pm tomorrow (Friday) or they are pulling the offer.

      They’ve just answered your question about the benefits. The answer is that the benefits are crap.

    7. New Window*

      I’m basically agreeing with the others, though it may not be the answer you want.

      Don’t accept Position 1 if you want to turn it down the second you get the other job. It creates bad blood and can come back to haunt you (“It’s a small world after all…”).

      Position 1 may be a firm offer, but you don’t even entirely know what they’re offering you. EVERYONE has questions about their benefits, and it is entirely reasonable and normal to ask about them before accepting an offer or not. Refusing to talk about benefits until someone has accepted is shady and, frankly, stupid.

      I can completely sympathize with wanting to have the certainty of a job, but this is a sign this company could be as toxic as the one you’re trying to leave.

    8. Natalie*

      As a general rule, any time someone is pushing you to make a decision on a very short time frame, they’re snowing you. Turn them down without guilt.

      1. Natalie*

        It also just occurred to me that perhaps you’re falling prey to the sunk costs fallacy a bit – you spent money to fly out for an interview, and you won’t “get that money back” if you turn this job down. That’s a fallacy for a reason. :)

      2. Wheezy Weasel*

        +1. Now, ff the company had paid to fly you out, given you all the information you asked for right away, and stated their reasoning to get you to commit quickly to a start date…for instance, three other team members that were starting at the same date so they could do a joint on boarding….you might give them a bit of a break. But seeing all of these circumstances come together is a big warning sign.

  108. Death Rides a Pale Volvo*

    Had my interview last week in the Portland, Oregon area.

    Not to brag, but I SLAYED. OH YES INDEEDY, I SLAYED.

    Also, everyone was right: Portland drivers are the most polite drivers I’ve ever encountered. I made sure to wave when someone let me in!

    Next week, back to Oregon…for ANOTHER interview, with a different organization! WHOO-HOOO!

  109. Biff*

    I’ve got a couple of questions for folks regarding unemployment and job searching.

    1. I joined Virtual Vocations, and I’m finding lots more to apply to, but I am concerned that it’s an illusion of progress, as there will be many, many, many applicants for the jobs. Has anyone had any success with these folks?

    2. How long does the average job search take these days, assuming that someone is looking for a role that is close to on par with whatever their previous role was in terms of responsibility and pay? i feel like this is stretching on forever, and it’s getting to me.

    1. NJ Anon*

      Never heard of Virtual Vocations. As far as how long? I think it really depends on a lot of factors, title, location, industry, etc.
      Good luck!

  110. Blue Anne*

    Our admin was fired recently. It was a good decision. I’m honestly glad, because having to help her on basic stuff or fix her mistakes was affecting my work.

    But there’s one thing she apparently got in trouble for which I have mixed feelings on. We’ve got a pretty diverse office here, and have a new employee who is Chinese, called Chao. The admin was asked to print up new telephone extension sheets and misspelled the new employee’s name as “Chow”.

    I can’t figure out how I feel about it. One the one hand it DOES come across a little racist. Calling a Chinese woman “Chow” just feels like it’s going to be followed up by asking how much she’d charge to iron my shirts. On the other hand, we’re in a pretty whitebread city and Admin was not exactly well traveled or aware of other cultures (she also thought the UK and Ukraine were the same thing, for example – when we have colleagues from both places on our team) and it seems like a totally honest mistake.

    On a practical level it doesn’t matter because the admin is already fired and there were a ton of good reasons to it. But I’m having trouble unpicking my thoughts on it and I feel like it’s something worth figuring out.

    2. Manders*

      I don’t think anyone but her knows whether she was being intentionally racist, but it’s definitely a sign that her attention to detail was not at the level it needed to be.

      1. Intrepid*

        Yeah, I wonder if this was a straw that broke the camel’s back situation, because it came off as a little racist AND showed that she was neglecting the details AND it’s one of a string of offenses. And, if your office staff is international, she may have been making her coworkers feel repeatedly uncomfortable in other ways, too.

    3. Sadsack*

      It was probably an honest mistake. It seems like a phonetic spelling, so she could have absent-mindedly done it, though it also seems kind of clueless to not double-check it. Or like it has also been suggested, maybe spell check did it. She still should have double-checked something that would go to the whole department.

    4. Not Karen*

      Chao is a misspelling too. I’m sure she actually spells it 超 or 潮 or something like that.

      1. The Not Mad But Sometimes Irritable Scientist*

        No, it’s not a misspelling, it’s the correct pinyin spelling of that name.

        And, not to put too fine a point on it, plenty of Chaos have been in the US for so long that nobody in the family speaks or writes the name as anything but Chao anymore.

      2. Manders*

        If she’s working in an English speaking country, she may have legal documents with a romanized version of her name. I also have several friends with the same last name in their original language, but different romanizations depending on when their families moved to America and whether they got a choice in how to spell their names or whether they were assigned something that sounded sort of similar by the immigration officer (which did happen sometimes). It actually happened to my family–one branch has a different spelling because they happened to go through Ellis Island at a different time.

    5. The Not Mad But Sometimes Irritable Scientist*

      It could be a totally honest mistake and also reflect a low level of attention to detail that was the straw that broke the camel’s back. Whitebread or not, not well traveled or not, you really need to make sure everybody’s name is spelled right on the directory.

    6. Allypopx*

      This is basically the Wakeen story.
      It can happen to any of us, but it is potentially embarrassing for and disrespectful to Chao, and embarrassing to the company, so I can see why she’d get called out on it. That said, you say there are plenty of other reasons why she got fired, so I wouldn’t hyperfocus on this. In another context it may have just been a “this was careless, don’t do it again” reprimand, which would have been appropriate.

    7. PollyQ*

      Really, you shouldn’t be misspelling anyone’s name on an in-house directory, regardless of racial implications or other spelling challenges. My guess would be that the PTB had pretty much decided she had to go, and were just waiting for one final “fail.”

      1. Blue Anne*

        No, if there was one thing in particular that got her fired, this wasn’t it. There were many, many things that visibly got her in trouble during her 3 months here, and this was just one of them.

      2. Natalie*

        Or perhaps the way she responded when someone mentioned it was exceptionally defensive/insensitive/racist?

    9. Emi.*

      I doubt it was racist–that’s a pretty common romanization, or it used to be. (A little more than 1/4 of the 周s on Wikipedia spell it that way.)

      I think you’re associating the old-fashioned spelling with old-fashioned racism, but it was probably just the last straw of not checking details.

      1. Lissa*

        My neighbours growing up were the Chows! (the early 80s). I’ve never seen it spelled that way recently though, but hadn’t thought of it. It being the old-fashioned spelling makes sense.

        1. Liane*

          I always thought Chao and Chow were just different (romanized) spellings, the way Linda can be spelled Lynda. But now that this has come up, I realize it has been years since I’ve seen the surname spelled “Chow.”

    10. literateliz*

      I’m sure you didn’t mean it this way, but this:

      “Calling a Chinese woman ‘Chow’ just feels like it’s going to be followed up by asking how much she’d charge to iron my shirts.”

      …isn’t a good way to deal with this situation. Name issues can definitely have racial overtones (for example, I would give the side-eye to someone making a big deal about the difficulty of spelling or pronouncing “Chao” if they seemed to have no difficulty with unfamiliar names of European origin), but I agree with other commenters that rather than commenting on that specific aspect of this mistake, it’s better to just give her the feedback that she must double-check name spellings on the directory and make sure they are all correct. But please don’t compound incidents like this by saying “It’s as if she said [other overtly racist stereotype]!” I’m Asian American and I can definitely say that no racially tinged incident I have faced at work (and there have been a few!) would ever have been improved by someone invoking overt racism as a way to show the offender what they sound like.

      1. Blue Anne*

        What I’m feeling conflicted about is the fact that she seemed to get in MORE trouble than if it were just an honest mistake – my bosses seemed to ascribe it to racism whereas I would have just assumed it was a consequence of this lady never having been more than 20 miles from her home town in the Midwest and spelling it phonetically. I’m trying to figure out whether it’s fair to consider it racist.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          They may have other information that you do not have.
          For example, when she was shown the correct spelling she said something like “yeah, whatevs”, which went into a larger conversation of respecting people in general.

          The other explanation is that your bosses are nit-pickers with no mercy.

          You are the one who is closest to the situation. Did you see your admin do other things that showed bias? Do your bosses have a rep for building mountains out of honest mistakes.

          If you are seeking to balance things out in your mind and put your mind at ease, one thing I would look at is what else was said. If this is one talking point out of 15, even if you toss this reason in the garbage, there are still 14 more points that they feel she was not up to par.

          If you are just wondering where you yourself stand on the questions, I would suggest that context is helpful. I have messed up people’s names. I do it so often that I am used to apologizing immediately. (I have scarring on my ear drums, I miss nuances of speech.) It’s normal for me to write the name down phonetically so I get it right going forward. I make sure the person knows I want to get their name right. (Then there are other people who tell me things like “it doesn’t matter what you call me”. Sigh.)

        2. FlyingFergus*

          I’m really not seeing how someone who isn’t culturally aware or well-traveled would be more prone to making an error like this and being forgiven for it. If the admin was typing up new phone extension sheets, she must have seen the name written somewhere and she failed to pay attention to her task. She sounds like she would have been just as likely to mess up if the new employee had been a Christine or Kristine or Kristen or Kristen or Kirsten or Christina…or Khrystyne.

          In other words, she doesn’t get a pass for the name of the employee being unfamiliar to her; she’s just very bad at her job.

    11. New Window*

      Not that I’ve been alive for several centuries and learned everything about everything, but I don’t see how misspelling a last name that comes from a language a person isn’t familiar with automatically gets the label of bigotry. This can happen for any name and with any person, and expecting a person to know pronunciation and spelling conventions for a language she has minimal familiarity with is probably not realistic.

      OTOH, I will get all over anyone who makes no effort to learn the proper spelling and pronunciation (or best approximation they can manage given their language background) of a person’s name. And when you’re creating records for people where the point is to get the correct information down, for crying out loud pay attention and don’t do sloppy work. So, if she ha d been speaking on the phone with Jane Chao and no one clarified the name spelling as she jotted her down as “Ms. Chow,” that would be an honest mistake. If she had the written material in front of her face that explicitly gave the correct spelling, then it was a sloppy and careless mistake, and I’m glad that you won’t have those kinds of poor work habits getting in your way anymore.

      1. Not Australian*

        Off topic, but I’m totally stealing “I’ve been alive for several centuries and learned everything about everything” …

    12. Ann O.*

      Chow is an actual last name that some people use, so I’m not quite sure how it’s racist in isolation. But presumably the admin had some kind of reference to use for the sheets, so it was either a racist deliberate misspelling or a very bad lack of attention to detail. Worth getting in trouble for, in my book.

  111. Sled dog mama*

    When I left old job they approached me about doing some consulting to provide continuity for one of the clients (I had been the only person serving that client for the last 18 months). I agreed and we came to an agreement on terms. The original IC agreement was open ended (start date but no end date). I invoiced per the agreement and it took 3 weeks past what was specified in the agreement (within 30 days of invoice) I finally got paid for the IC work. Turns out AP was waiting on me to return paperwork that the contracting coordinator never sent me and she pretty much ghosted all communications I sent her. She also tried repeatedly to communicate with me via my company email after it was deactivated (it was forwarded to former boss who let me know) after being told I no longer had access to that email and being given my personal email. I still have a promised bonus pending payment from this company (supposed to be direct deposited with next payroll so we’ll see).
    Today I get an email from this coordinator that they are updating records and she needs X, Yand Z to keep me on the current list.
    I’m very conflicted, on the one hand all my problems with the company have been with this one employee but it has really soured my dealings with the company. The company is aware that I would only accept very specific contract assignments and these are few and far between so it might be a year before another came up. Part of me wants to just ghost like she did to me, part wants to send everything in because these assignments are really good for my career but not a requirement and part of me wants to give her an ear full or email full about how this has gone and how far out of whack it is with the rest of the company.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      It sounds awful to me. I would be tempted to write and say because x, y and z happened I am no longer able to continue this work.

      But, if you are actually interested in keeping the work perhaps you can get a new contact person assigned to you. That contact person would be responsible for seeing to it that all communication gets to you.

  112. Anon4Arbitration*

    My work is requiring us to sign non-disclosure agreements and arbitration agreement. The arbitration agreement doesn’t sit well with me…any thoughts?

    Some background: my small-ish company was bought by a much larger company about 10 months ago. The large company is now requiring that all the employees who came from small-ish company sign the standard non-disclosure agreement and arbitration agreement (so we’re not new hires). I don’t care too much about the NDA–the nature of the work means it makes sense–but I feel like I’ve only heard bad things about arbitration agreements from employers. I know I could just refuse to sign…but I suspect that would be a job-ender, and I’m not interested in that.

    So…anything I should know going in? The company is headquartered in Texas (which I kind of assume has lousy worker protections?) but I’m in another, more employee-friendly state — would I get the protections of my state even though the company is in Texas?

    1. MegaMoose, Esq*

      Generally (maybe always?), a company has to follow the labor laws of wherever the specific employees are located, not where their headquarters are located. As for the arbitration agreement, that I do not know. It very well might be worth seeing if you can get a local employment attorney to look at it – maybe a couple of your coworkers could go with you?

    2. Mike C.*

      Ugh, I absolutely despise arbitration agreements when the arbiter is paid for by one party and there is a power disparity between them. It’s just a way for the employer to try and take away your rights to appeal to the legal system for help.

  113. Mike C.*

    Complete hypothetical question here, just something that popped into my head when I was in the shower this morning:

    Lets say someone is at work at their job and it’s a job where management isn’t completely rational, and called you into a meeting. At that meeting they are fired, and walked out right then and there by security without the ability to gather your things. You are told that your things will be packed up and shipped to your home or whatever, and given contact info. You tell them that you need your medicine but they insist you leave the premises now, as the medication isn’t for a life threatening condition. The security guards walk you out.

    Here’s the question I have and remember, this is just a hypothetical: Let’s say that medication is a Schedule 2 drug. ADD meds or serious pain killers or something like that. Is the company now in serious trouble for being in possession of a highly controlled substance they have no permission to have? I can’t see police giving people drug charges but maybe not?

    If nothing else, this wacky scenario is another reason why you should let fired employees gather all of their things before perp walking them out of the building.

    1. Anxa*

      Maybe I’m being petty, but I would absolutely be tempted to report them for possessing my drugs without a Rx. I probably wouldn’t, but if those bridges are already burned it would be so, so tempting.

      To be honest, I don’t even think you should have to mention your medication before it being on them. They, as the people who are holding your items against your will should be responsible for possessing them, whether it’s a weapon that’s not registered to them or drugs that weren’t proscribed to them. They most certainly do not have permission unless it was granted as part of the hiring process to handle my medication.

      Of course, they have all of the power and I would have to just suck up the month of not having those meds and knowing they are getting away with something others could be charged for, but that’s the system.

      1. Mike C.*

        Oh man, I didn’t think about a weapon! I was thinking about a set of car keys so the person could actually leave though.

        1. Anxa*

          Oh, well I know they are prohibited in most workplaces, but if you did have one in your desk, I don’t know. I think in that instance I’d say something for safety’s sake. Not that drugs can’t be dangerous, but still.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      First, I’m thinking are there companies who wouldn’t even let you get your purse or backpack? I can see someone might put their meds in their desk drawer, but if it’s something I need to take at work and home, I’m going to have it within a personal bag.

      If so, that’s crazy. My wallet, car keys, and phone are in my purse. I could not wait a few days for them to mail it to me.

      Last, that would be terrible if someone was without their ADHD meds. My company takes a while to box stuff up and get it to you. I’m sure many people know, but you can’t fill a ritalin prescription except after 30 days from when the last one was filled. If I lose my son’s prescription paper (I get 3 mo at a time), tough cookies, I can come get one after 3 months. That might not be life threatening, but it would be life-altering and to not have your normal neuro state when you just got fired would really suck.

      1. AnotherAlison*

        Oh and to answer the question, I probably wouldn’t get police involved. Police have enough to do, and this would likely go nowhere.

      2. Mike C.*

        It’s not common, but there are places where the manager/owner is a petty tyrant or they assume you’re going to “hack into their mainframe” if you even lay eyes on your desk.

        1. AnotherAlison*

          There’s a workaround for that. The company I worked for in the early 2000s took people into conference rooms for layoffs and then took their keyboards before the people came back to get their personal stuff. I can see not letting someone pack up 20 years worth of reference materials and every knickknack they own, but they should at least get their critical personal items.

          I can see a few exceptions, but they would involve the fired person having done something particularly egregious.

          1. Mike C.*

            Huh. Normally I would expect that someone from IT would be cancelling accounts and locking things down, but that’s a really simple solution to the issue.

            I need to think on it to see if there’s anything obvious that it’s missing, but in my Friday afternoon state of mind, that sounds incredibly clever!

      3. SystemsLady*

        Yeah this is much more of a “I literally can’t get an early refill” hypothetical than a “I want to get my company in trouble” hypothetical :(. I was stuck using a mail order service for a schedule II for ADHD for the longest time and it sucked whenever they were late (which was a lot).

        But in that light wow would I want that company to get in trouble.

        1. JustaTech*

          My insurance keeps insisting that I want to use a mail order and 3 month prescription even though they couldn’t assure me it was legal in my state. I asked my doctor and she said no, because there was too much risk of screw ups and I would suffer for it.

    3. Oscar Madisoy*

      “At that meeting they are fired, and walked out right then and there by security without the ability to gather your things. You are told that your things will be packed up and shipped to your home or whatever, and given contact info. You tell them that you need your medicine but they insist you leave the premises now, as the medication isn’t for a life threatening condition. The security guards walk you out.”

      I would like to think that if they won’t let me get my stuff, I would raise a big stink about it. I’m talking getting loud, causing a scene, struggling with the security guards if I need to. I mean, if I’m being fired anyway, AND since management isn’t rational, they’d probably give me a bad reference if I needed one from them anyway, why should I go gracefully? ESPECIALLY if they’re denying me access to my medication. I’d like to think I’d shout stuff like ‘I NEED MY MEDICINE,’ ‘YOU WANT TO KILL ME’ and that kind of stuff.

      At best, I’d get my property right then and there. At worst, I’d have made the security guards EARN their money, because they probably wouldn’t be expecting a just-fired employee to fight back.

      Of course, what I’d do in reality would probably be something different. Let us hope none of us ever have to find out what we would do should such a situation arise.

  114. Venus Supreme*

    I feel like that isolated incident just shows how ignorant she is. I don’t think her thought process was, “Oh we have a Chinese employee? Better fix that name to Chow! Muahahaha!” more like, “I don’t know anything about Chinese cultures or names but I think you’d spell it like Chow Mein and I’m not going to put any more effort into this because I deem it a low priority.” So it shows how little she knows (or cares to know) about other cultures. I always would like to think that the first time is an honest mistake. Had she stayed on the team and this error showed up more than once… yeah, it’s intentional and racist AF.

    2. Emi.*

      It is *a* standard spelling, though, so I don’t think it’s as bad as that. It’s more like spelling Caitlyn as Caitlin.

      1. Blue Anne*

        It’s good to know that it is one possible spelling – I’ve seen a number of Chaos but never a Chow.

        2. LCL*

          Lots of Chows in left coast US, spelled just like that.

          I’m not willing to believe, in the absence of other evidence, that continual misspelling is racist and shows bad intent. (Wrote the woman whose name is so badly botched it is often misgendered.)

  115. Rumor has it...*

    That the PM has lost it and I’m trying to decide whether to call the ethics hot line based on a rumor.

    <>

    All non-conforming product must be quarantined. It is the responsibility of ALL SUPERVISORS (Production and Quality) to identify and document. We had a bunch of stuff not get reported over the course of 2 weeks. WTH? This is weird. Scramble to get it locked down. PM decides that when an inspector identifies non-conformance (at a particular stage) they are to hand the supervisor the form and ensure they complete the process. Nope, above their pay-grade: they are inspectors, not supervisors and could very well report this to the union rep (apparently everyone is so frustrated and frightened that this possibility cannot even be acknowledged, I was told to eliminate the thought immediately).

    Here comes the even more ridiculous part: Rumor has it that our newest supervisor followed protocol and wrote up the documentation. The PM told him to throw it away! Supervisor listened to his superior and then confided in another supervisor who took the issue to his manager. WTF?

    Do you call ethics on a rumor? I’d normally ignore but this has been combined with so many other odd things…

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      So you saw the dysfunction in your second paragraph, and the third paragraph was the rumored part? To me, that sounds like the allegation is worth tipping them off about (as something heard third-hand) based on the things you’ve actually seen, which sounds like it might also be worth investigating.

    2. Mike C.*

      Report it right away.

      If you’re in a place that is serious enough to need quarantine procedures for non-conforming products, then you should report everything you know. This isn’t like normal business rumors and you need someone higher up to ensure that bad things aren’t happening and to also ensure that everyone on the floor isn’t feeling pressured to cheat your QMS.

    3. Rumor has it...*

      Thank you TCA* and Mike C.
      Will take care of it ASAP

      *Yes, dysfunction 2nd paragraph, rumor 3rd paragraph (and to clarify, the documentation was thrown away, not the product).

      1. Mike C.*

        That’s just as bad.

        For the benefit of those who don’t work in regulated places like these if the documentation doesn’t exist, then it never happened. Proper manufacturing? Proper Storage? QC/QA approval? No record, it never happened. Without those records, the product is useless and simply can’t be used in a certified manner.

  116. Camellia*

    I saw this and had to share it:

    Yes, English can be weird. It can be understood through tough thorough thought, though.

    2. Amber Rose*

      Not always. I still can’t parse Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo, even when it’s explained to me. D:

      My favorite author, Jasper Fforde, had a wonderful paragraph dealing with “had had” and “that that” though, and I did understand and thoroughly enjoy it, after a little bit of careful thought.

    3. zora*

      My mom teaches first grade to mostly new English Learners, and this sentence makes her laugh and cry at the same time.

  117. Gaia*

    I have a question about working for a US company and moving to Canada.

    I’ve wanted to move to Canada for several years now to be closer to some family and friends. One of the big obstacles has always been that it is difficult to get a job there without authorization to work (therefore, needing sponsorship) in my field and moving there and getting authorization to work without a job is not really feasible.

    My job has just offered me the option of working 100% remotely – from anywhere globally. Does anyone have any thoughts on how this might work when applying for authorization to work in Canada? I already have a job, but not sponsorship because they aren’t a Canadian company. I assume I would need a work visa but….argh.

    I have a meeting with an immigration attorney that specializes in US immigration into Canada but that isn’t for several weeks and I’m curious now. Has anyone done this? Thoughts?

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      Wow! What a wonderful opportunity your company has offered! It might be a good idea to meet with your boss and/or HR to discuss what the company would need you to do, in advance of your meeting with the attorney.

      1. Gaia*

        So, from their perspective, I only need to tell them where I will be working from (if I leave the country). They will continue to meet my US tax obligation and I will be obligated to handle any foreign tax issues. If I were moving to a country where they had a presence, I would be sponsored under that office, etc, but that isn’t an option for Canada since we have no office there.

        But yes, it is a very exciting opportunity!

    2. zora*

      omg. This is amazing. If I had this option, I would move to a tiny, beautiful town in Southern France, because housing is crazy cheap there because there are literally no jobs, so no one stays there. Just saying, lots of places you could go ;o)

    3. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      You will need a visa of some sort – Canada’s is point based I believe, so you may want to check up and see if you are valid for any of the ones listed on the govt website. It will be much more straightforward than the disaster that is the UK. If your case is clear cut you may not even need the immigration attorney.

      Taxes – even though you will be required to file in the US, you are credited for what you paid in the other country up to a certain point, so in the end you will likely owe nothing to the US. However you MUST STILL FILE every year, although expats are given an extra three months to do the filing.

  118. Anxa*

    Mini-rant:

    I am at work (I had a client this morning and I should have one late this afternoon, although I wouldn’t be surprised if they no-show and I just get paid for the 15 minute wait window)

    Obviously, it would be nice if I could get a few more clients since I’m already here at work. I would love to send out a quick email letting everyone know I’m here as a “last call before break,” but it will take me at least 30 minutes, because we use OWA. Or maybe it’s not Outlook Web App that’s the problem, but our network settings:
    -No access to autofill student contacts
    -No autofill to addresses that were already emailed back in forth with or CC’d on
    -No BCC which I can see, but I don’t feel comfortable always putting all the emails in the TO: field, since then I’m sharing students’ emails with one another maybe without their permission
    -No saving email templates
    -No clicking on an email to save it to contacts (I have to add their phone number too)
    -No copy and pasting email addresses from contacts into an email.
    -And worst! No new tabs. Oh, how much easier life would be if I could side-by-side my screens.
    -No calendar sharing

    I guess it’s time to download another browser to have more than one window open.

    Ugh, I know I know I should get to work but still! I can’t believe how much longer stuff takes me. I’m starting to think this is why they don’t pay admins and have us all do this work, since it’s our behind-the-scenes work and not what we get paid for.

    1. Creag an Tuire*

      Blegh. Have you reached out to your IT department about this? It sounds like a nightmare.

      Although:

      -No clicking on an email to save it to contacts (I have to add their phone number too)

      Can’t you just put down “867-5309” or something else obviously fake as a placeholder if it’s demanding something be put in the field?

      1. Anxa*

        I asked the help desk and they didn’t know what to tell me. Regular staff may have different access than I do, a temp. But see that’s the thing. I can live with no benefits, no full time hours and no pay, but it’s the other things that really get me frustrated. Things that literally make it harder to do my job just because they don’t want to pay health insurance or something.

        I’m going to pose as a student next week and go to a focus group on a new web site.

        As for the phone number, what I”m trying to do is to add the phone numbers to my cell phone as well as take them from the email and put them in the contact list. So there’s more than one field I want to copy.

  119. Machiamellie*

    I’d just like to say that if anyone thinks looking for a job is tough, try doing it with more than one disability =\ I need to work remote due to my Ehlers-Danlos and my living in Iowa (where there’s not a lot of opportunity). So I’m disclosing it up front as my need to work remote (accommodation) and I don’t even get “thanks but no thanks” emails 99% of the time.

    I reached out to one of the “big 4” financial services companies because they said they were having a huge neurodiversity push (I also have Aspergers), and someone high up on their “talent” teams has EDS and so I thought they would understnd. I have been talking with their “diversity recruiters” for 4 months now. The primary one kept putting me off time after time, and now she’s totally passed me to another one. I had an “introductory call” with the new one yesterday, and she basically said they almost always promote from within and I shouldn’t bother. Which, I can’t argue with promoting from within, but why string me along for 4 months. Why not just tell me that. I sent her a thank-you email and said it didn’t look promising and I’d just hold off applying for new openings, unless I heard from them, and she basically sent me a “we’ll keep your resume on file” response. Jerks.

    1. Elizabeth West*

      Rawr. >:(
      I’m trying to be honest about my dyscalculia so it doesn’t look like I don’t want assignments with numbers, just that I need some workarounds for them. I kind of feel like this works against me, though–people don’t understand it and they probably think I’m illiterate or something instead. Plus, why are numbers so ubiquitous? :(

      1. Machiamellie*

        Yeah I’m a recruiter but I don’t have the physical energy to do it any more, I’m trying to move into recruiting analytics. Which can be done remotely, easily, and I have the background for it, just not formal training. Frustrating. I have an appointment with Iowa Vocational Rehab next month to see if anything local can be found.

        Dyscalculia doesn’t sound fun!

        1. Iowan*

          Gah I’ve lived in that area and, especially because you’re a recruiter, I’m shocked nobody in Des Moines wants to accommodate this. Best of luck (and hope that agency is somewhere in the blind spot of the Legislature at the moment…).

  120. mcr-red*

    I’m having a problem with a co-worker (not a manager in any fashion) “correcting” my work. Not for any kind of mistakes, but because it’s not how he would do it. Think, that teapot is blue and he’d change it to orange kind of thing. Anytime I’ve complained to the dept. head or the boss, they just say he’s being “helpful.” I started having boss OK my work – he STILL does it. I’ve complained that if co-worker has time to be “helpful” he could be “helpful” by taking over some of my teapots. They both laugh it off. I’ve circumvented co-worker by taking my teapots to the teapot finisher before he can touch them – he and dept. head got annoyed and he actually asked boss if I had done that so he couldn’t “correct” them. Boss did tell him that they had been OK’d and didn’t need his “corrections.” Boss and I recently had an argument over this, as Boss likes a lot of my ideas, but I got mad over the latest “correction” and said I was tired of wasting my time doing these ideas if they are just going to be “corrected” in some fashion.

    I am senior employee, not correcting co-worker. I am also the only woman in my department.

    Can you all think of anything else I can say? And yes, I’ve been actively looking for another job.

    1. Machiamellie*

      Have you flat out said to your coworker, “Please don’t correct my work unless I ask.” ?

      1. mcr-red*

        Honestly, no, because he’s creepy and a bit hostile, and everyone except the dept. manager, whom he’s friends with, avoids talking to him at all costs. If you have to talk to him, he barely says anything in reply without making any eye contact, and when he does speak is in a nasty tone. Imagine a passive-aggressive teen snarling, “I KNOW, mom!” and you’ll get the tone. I kind of wonder if the bosses are also afraid to talk to him too, hence them just letting him do whatever.

    2. MuseumChick*

      Have you asked you boss why he’s ok with co-worker altering your work (I would also stop using the correcting with talking about this)? “(Boss), I know we’ve talked about this a few times but I would like some clarification. As you know Davos constantly alters my work even after it’s been ok’d by you. Is there a reason this is being allowed? Do you have any concerns about my designs? Honestly, it’s really disheartening to get a designed approved and then have it changed without my knowledge.” Depending on your answer you can say, “Going forward I would prefer my designs not be altered with out explicate directions from you. Is that something we can agree too?”

      Also, are you co-work and boss connected in any way? Nephew? Kid of a friend of your boss?

      1. Intrepid*

        You could also throw in that he’s spending staff time making alterations to work that’s already been approved– and then potentially high-level staff time in getting that work re-approved. I’ve had a couple bosses who were content to let many a point whizz right over their heads unless you pointed out that it was a waste of the boss’s resources (staff $ / time).

      2. mcr-red*

        I’ve never used the term “correcting” with the boss, just “Messing with” but to me, it feels like he is correcting and making judgments on things he has no business in doing, which is why I used the phrase here.

        In the argument with my boss, that is basically what I said – “Why is this happening? You don’t let the Teapot Spout makers change each other’s spouts because that’s not how they would do it, why is this happening with me? Do you not like what I am doing?” My boss didn’t have answer for the first, and said no they liked my work. When I said, “It’s really upsetting to get a designed approved and then have it changed without my knowledge and I feel like I’m wasting my time.” they said my time wasn’t wasted as it wasn’t the WHOLE thing changed, just one thing. When I said, “I’m just not going to bother anymore because it’s only what HE wants, I’m tired of wasting my time,” my boss told me not to overreact. By then I was angry and I just left.

        As far as I know, co-worker is not a relative of anyone and is only friends with the dept. manager.

        1. MuseumChick*

          I would sit down with your boss and (try) to have frank and calm discussion with him. Keep calmly pressing the issue “why is this happening?”

          Are you unhappy with my work?

          No?

          They why is this happening?

          Well it’s not big changes!

          That doesn’t answer my question, why is this happening?

          He’s just helping!

          My question is why are my designs being changed after they are approved and without anyone speaking to me first?

          I don’t understand why it’s a big deal!

          I want to understand why this is happening.

          Yes, it feels like a merry go round but something is weird here and you want to get to the bottom of it.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            I’d keep going with this, this is good.

            I would ask “If I were a man, would your answer be different?”

        2. MuseumChick*

          I would sit down with your boss and (try) to have frank and calm discussion with him. Keep calmly pressing the issue “why is this happening?”

          Are you unhappy with my work?

          No?

          They why is this happening?

          Well it’s not big changes!

          That doesn’t answer my question, why is this happening?

          He’s just helping!

          My question is why are my designs being changed after they are approved and without anyone speaking to me first?

          I don’t understand why it’s a big deal!

          I want to understand why this is happening.

          Yes, it feels like a merry go round but something is weird here and you want to get to the bottom of it.

          *One more thing, I say not to use the word “correcting” because it makes it sound like there WAS something wrong with your original work, which isn’t the case. It’s good you haven’t used it whe talking to your boss.

          1. mcr-red*

            I’m getting at the point where I’m hugely upset and ready to say, “You know what? Either co-worker quits messing with my teapots or I’m quitting.”

    3. Channel Z*

      If the teapots are going through him, then maybe he does have some role in input/correction. Or maybe he feels left out and is trying to make his mark this way. Can you give him things that are mostly finished and let him do some of the finer detail work, then present the teapots together?

      1. mcr-red*

        He is only supposed to be checking for teapot errors and then sending them on to the finisher. He has his own set of teapots to do. These changes aren’t errors. It’s not like, oh that teapot has a huge crack in it. They are weird things, like he moves the flower an inch to the right. He changes the color to blue instead of green.

        Ironic part – he and the manager have both sent teapots with huge errors to the finisher that were noticed when the customer complained. No one has complained about my teapots in years.

    4. SystemsLady*

      Your co-worker is like mine if he were on the opposite side of the awesome – jerk spectrum and also had a misogynistic streak. And even with him being awesome and not putting himself where he doesn’t belong, oh wow do I know what you mean.

      Your boss and co-worker suck and you’re doing all the right things. I’d say let it go if it were closer to my case, but perhaps taking down a note every time this happens and presenting the issue back to your boss after a while of doing that might be a good way to go.

    5. Ultraviolet*

      This is so frustrating!

      I have to admit I don’t really have a good grasp of the work situation. Does this coworker have access to everyone else’s projects in the same way he does yours? Does he alter other people’s projects without asking them? If not, could he? My point is, if you’re being singled out for this treatment, that’s something you could bring up with your boss.

      Can you tell your boss that it’s hard to take ownership of your projects given that they are effectively subject to this guy’s approval? Can you say you feel undermined by the fact that your projects are altered by a peer whereas everyone else’s get to stand on their own? (If that’s true, of course.)

      If you know that some people on your level never have their work altered by peers, can you point out to your boss that So-and-So’s work is never altered without their approval, and ask what you can do to have your work go the same way?

      Can you tell your boss that you’d like to be able to approve any alterations proposed by this guy before the teapot goes to the teapot finisher? That way you’re not fully rejecting his “help” but still retain ownership.

      Something to watch out for is the possibility that your boss (and higher-ups) intend for everyone’s work to be subject to this kind of input from peers, but in reality it’s only yours that’s getting changed. In this case, you can risk appearing overly territorial or defensive by pushing back. I’ve had this problem, but honestly never figured out how to solve it.

  121. Intrepid*

    What are some good ways to describe social science research skills in cover letters and interviews?

    I’m in one such field (international relations). I’m a couple years out from graduation and would like to move into a job where a greater proportion of my tasks are research-based. I’ve been praised by my bosses for my research skills on briefs, potential funders, and background information, but it’s always been frustratingly vague (“great research!” or at most “very thorough”). I’ve never even gotten negative feedback on my research, so I have no feeling for what makes “good” research vs. “OK” or “bad” work.

    If you were hiring for this skill, what are some of the things you’d love to see?

    1. Huddled over tea*

      Research is such a broad skill that when someone tells me they’re good at research, I never have any idea what they mean, so I find it helpful when they break it down.

      It’s always useful for us to know the kind of research you can do (quant/qual), your methodologies (do you do surveys, news analysis, focus groups, etc), and the amount of research you’ve done (organising lots of small focus groups is a different skill set to managing surveys for 10,000 people for example).

      Also, what tools you use (google analytics, data software) and what your output is too (is it more charts and graphs or a research paper, powerpoint, stakeholder briefings, etc).

      1. Chaordic One*

        This is probably so obvious that I shouldn’t even mention it, but in my admittedly limited experience, what I always get praised for in my research is citing my sources and having good footnotes and references and being able to use whatever seemingly arbitrary format they want them in (APA, Chicago style, etc.).

        I’m not really sure how you would list this as a skill, though.

    1. Amber Rose*

      That test is laughably easy. I can tell you what the “right” answers are just from reading that article, and the name of the test.

      But he’s right about one thing: it does help with weeding out the losers. I’d never apply to that company.

      1. The Not Mad But Sometimes Irritable Scientist*

        Yep. That entire article, and the questions, make it pretty clear that they should just make offers based on 4Chan posting history and cut out the application process.

    2. Creag an Tuire*

      “What does “faith” mean to you?”

      It means you’ve just lost your EEOC lawsuit, dumbass.

    3. Lioness*

      Wtf? Surely it can’t be legal to ask some of these?! As well as being, you know, totally bone headed.

    4. Karo*

      I think my favorite part may genuinely be that he thinks his company is the best because they have alcohol, an xbox and bean bag chairs. Nothing about being a good company to work for.

      1. Amber Rose*

        I worked as a minimum wage cashier at a hardware store as a teen. We had a Dreamcast set up in the break room, and cozy chairs. That absolutely did not make it a good place to work.

      2. The Not Mad But Sometimes Irritable Scientist*

        I have several friends in the tech industry, and it is appalling how frequently “we have a beer fridge, hold nerf gun battles, and an Xbox in the common room” correlates with “the entire company leadership, as well as the VC investors keeping them in the black, are arrogant man-children in black hoodies who cover each others’ asses for anything up to and including nonviolent felonies and think work-life balance is only for people who have lives.”

      3. Ann. O*

        I had a hard time believing he was real. I went to his Facebook. He is exactly what you’d think he’d be. I would be shocked if his employees don’t have horror stories to tell.

        1. Lissa*

          Ugh, why did I look? If he owns a big company, I would not bet against him having been the subject of at least one AAM letter…

    5. Elizabeth West*

      Call me a snowflake (:D), but I honestly see this as the kind of job I would avoid like the plague, for the following reasons:

      1) Even if I loved a job (and I’ve had jobs I really enjoyed), I work to live, not live to work. I get paid to be there–it isn’t done out of the kindness of my heart. Aside from the test, all the workplace amenities he mentions point to a very poor work-life balance.

      2) Some of these questions don’t have anything to do with work at all. Why would they need to know how I feel about the flag? What does that have to do with software (or whatever this job is)? We’re presumably adults and can get along without knowing every little detail about each other. None of that stuff is any of my employer’s business, and it’s arbitrary as hell; see reason 3.

      3) The very fact that this employer used the word “snowflake” and the test involved has questions about GUNS and FAITH and ‘MURICA implies a very biased worldview. Clearly, they’re screening out people they see as liberal, which also means they’re probably getting a rather homogeneous set of people working for them. These setups tend to stifle ideas and different viewpoints, which are things that help a company grow and analyze client needs.

      Even if all the questions were skewed toward my worldview (or legal, as the faith one probably isn’t), I would still backpedal–because damn.

    6. Lissa*

      I have so many questions! Wow, this guy sounds obnoxious as hell. Also, a lot of you say you know the right answers to these questions — I assume because I’m not American, but I want to know! What kind of answer does he want to “you see someone stepping on an American flag? What happens next?” Since he doesn’t want “snowflakes”, would the correct answer be “Not care, because somebody stepping on an inanimate object doesn’t trigger me or hurt my feelings! I don’t need a safe space?” I don’t get it! What about the “faith” question? this person doesn’t seem religious …. I am so confused!

      “Most people suck”, eh? In my experience most people who think that of course assume they’re an exception and don’t have anything in their own behaviour that might “suck”. This guy seems like the hiring management equivalent of the dude at the bar who negs you…

      1. Natalie*

        “Since he doesn’t want “snowflakes”, would the correct answer be “Not care, because somebody stepping on an inanimate object doesn’t trigger me or hurt my feelings! I don’t need a safe space?””

        Nah, you’re probably supposed to punch the person, or freedom everything up with your gun. You see, “feelings” are womany things like fear or sadness. Manny things like anger don’t count as a feeling.

      2. Gaia*

        Oh see, you’re confused. People like him get really offended by commercials, coffee shops, people’s opinions, peaceful protests and stepping on flags but they call people like me snowflakes because I demand equality and won’t tolerate being regulated into silence. They are the snowflake: irritating in large numbers but, ultimately temporary. I’m a hail storm.

        1. Lissa*

          Oh man, that makes me wish even more that I could answer the American flag question with “not care because I’m not a snowflake with feelings!” or something. But yeah, that makes sense! Also what is with boycotting Starbucks? Every time that happens it just makes me want a frappucino…

    7. Natalie*

      This calls for one of Liz Lemon’s epic eye rolls.

      “I wanna roll my eyes right now, but the doctor said if I keep doing it my ocular muscles might spasm and eject my eyeballs.”

    8. Not So NewReader*

      I would not work for this guy if he was the last employer on earth. I would allow myself to starve or forage in the woods for food.

      And I guess that is his point.

  123. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    So I had the top5 company interview this week. Was supposed to last an hour, it lasted 40 minutes. Basically, the company’s recruiter invited me there, I met two folks, and they were writing up a job description based on my credentials. They asked questions similar to “if you were to get into a perfect teapot job, what would that look like?” I told them how I near-resurrected an entire teapot division from the ground up and reformulated its architecture with the directoral backing. And one of them said this is how they got their job (like me, invited in for a blank job description interview).

    Why would companies randomly do this, especially, a top5 one? What’s been your experience?

    Also, I had to work overtime the day before. Absolutely exhausted. How do you unwind Fridays after crazy 48 hours? I kinda wanna grocery shop, throw stuff in the oven, and watch movies..

  124. Lemon Zinger*

    My department shares a large office space with cubicles in the middle and offices on the periphery. The ED of my department has an assistant who’s been here for several months. ED is frequently offsite, but “Brittany” is typically there Monday through Friday, 8-5. She sits in a cubicle outside his office.

    Brittany is all business when ED is in the office, but when he’s not there, she takes long personal phone calls– with her landlord, her family members, and her child, among others. She frequently gets agitated on these calls; she swears regularly and raises her voice to a level that can be heard on the other side of the space. Brittany takes personal calls every day.

    I wouldn’t care about these personal calls at all if I couldn’t hear them… but I can. They’re loud, distracting, and the subject matter is sometimes disturbing. Brittany’s personal calls really distract me and hinder my ability to do my job, especially when I am on the phone.

    What can I do?

    1. Elizabeth West*

      Ask her to hold it down. “Hey Brittany, you may not realize, but we can hear you across the office when you’re on the phone and it’s very distracting when I’m trying to work. Could you please hold the volume down? Thanks.”

      If she gives you any flak, I’d go to your manager and ask what he/she wants you to do about this–“I’m having trouble concentrating when ED is gone. Brittany is often on her cell and can get a little loud, and sometimes her language isn’t the best. It’s affecting our concentration. I’ve asked her to lower the volume but it doesn’t seem to have any effect. Can we use headphones, or is there some other way you’d like us to handle this?”

      1. MuseumChick*

        I second this. I may just be paranoid but I would also start keeping track of when and for how long she is on personal calls. If anything happens you want to have some documentation.

        1. Colette*

          That would likely backfire. It’s hard to complain someone is distracting you from your work when you’re dedicating your day to tracking what they’re doing instead of working.

    2. Tabby Baltimore*

      I know this is not the norm, and only you can decide whether you want to pay the consequences for doing something like this, but here goes: start making a list of all the personal information about her that you can hear/glean from these high-decibel calls. After about a month, go to her in person, with the list, and ask, again, for her to lower the volume on her calls b/c they have become a disruptive distraction in the workplace (or whatever reason you’re comfortable presenting). To that, add: “Here’s a list of the things I’ve learned about you in the last month. [Present list; hopefully, it will include personally identifying information like SSNs, bank names and account #s, her home address, the name/age/school of her child, etc.] If *I* know these things, just from hearing your very loud conversations with others, you can bet other people, employees and visitors to this office alike, know this, too. Brittany, isn’t maintaining your, and your family’s, privacy worthwhile enough to lower your voice during your personal calls?”

  125. Anxa*

    So I know that gifts and recognition should usually flow up, but I have a situation with people who are not necessarily my boss.

    Is it fair to be a little resentful of Secretary/Admin Assistant day? I do most of my own admin work, either on my own time or at the expense of focuses on doing my main job better. Many of our admins are full-time, and they all make more money than I do (full-time and part-time included). They really don’t help me out much (I mean they are fine, but it’s not like I couldn’t do my job without them, or at least not to any degree that’s significant). I mean, I’m the one working directly with our clients (along with faculty). Most our reception/admin work is done by program specialists or in other departments. That said, I think there might be some student workers in the department that answer phones sometimes.

    Do you think it’s grumpy for me to resent being roped into “we should do something for secretary day! conversations?” I haven’t been here long enough to know what the appreciation events are like for my position and if I’m being crusty about this. I feel like that should come from above.

    1. Lissa*

      I think your feelings are totally reasonable, and I’d probably feel just the same way. Unfortunately it’s kind of the sort of thing where it’s hard to actually verbalize/do anything about it without *looking* like you’re being crusty/grumpy — a lot of people won’t actually understand or see the whole picture, just “you’re not appreciating the admin!” But, yeah, I totally see why you feel that way from what you described.

      1. Anxa*

        I decided to be cheery, but I set up the expectations that I’d be signing a card and making a point to stop by areas and redirected conversation away from pooling money around for a gift, making it clear that I wasn’t signing on for that.

  126. Elkay*

    I could do with a reality check on how off base I am with my thinking.

    We have a contractor (non-US, employed by an agency, works embedded in our team) who rubs me up the wrong way but I’m not sure if I’m being over-sensitive or if they’re over-stepping workplace norms. The contractor is providing short term backfill for a staff member who is working on delivering a big project so they’ll be with us about a year (they’ve been here maybe 6-8 months already).

    My issue is rather than doing what’s asked of them they will often provide un-requested suggestions to work they’ve been asked to do. Today it was around a small project we’re working on to try out a new teapot design, there’s been three meetings so far and they’ve attended two of them. Towards the end of the meeting today they asked if we were going to consider a new teapot design as part of this project and I was a little short with them which they later questioned me on. I was frustrated on two counts 1) we’d spent all meeting discussing the new teapot design (they later said they were unaware that’s what the project was for) and 2) they’d only been asked to find a way to source the chocolate. I wanted to give the benefit of the doubt so I asked at the end of the meeting i.e. not in front of everyone, whether they had expertise in the teapot design area but it turns out they don’t they just thought they could help.

    I’m the first to admit I’m not good with people and I struggle with boundaries but is this the norm that working as a contractor you should try to advise permanent staff on areas you have no experience with and haven’t been asked to help with?

    1. Newby*

      Do they have enough to do? If they have too much free time they might be concerned about their position.

      1. Elkay*

        We’ve just renewed their contract. I think that was the other thing that irritated me was the thing we needed them to do they weren’t 100% on top of.

        1. Newby*

          It seems like they are trying to gain new skills by taking on stretch assignments. If they are not on top of what they are supposed to be doing that is probably not appropriate.

    2. writelhd*

      I dealt with a co-worker like this in a non-contract situation, so I tend to think it’s a just a personality thing, or a mismatch with what the person is hired to do with what they like to do/thought the job was or whatever. He left after about a year because he got frustrated and didn’t really like the environment.

  127. Lady Blerd*

    Moving day today! Only for my tiny section but we had a lot of file cabinets to move on top of o personal stuff. Boss wanted us to move, I objected, he listened but said it was still happening so here we are. I had a corner cubicle that was the envy of my colleagues, now I stare at the corner of cubicle because it made more sense to have the minions next to our entrance to meet with the customers, that grants them a view through our vindows. I think I will remove one of my cubicle’s panels to that I have a bit of a view.

  128. Guinea pig*

    Sooooo… anyone else work for a company where a medium (yes, “see the future” type of person) is heavily involved in hiring decisions?

    6. H.C.*

      No, but on a related note, I’ve interviewed candidates who brings up the positive traits of their zodiac signs (“I am an Aries… so I’m a born leader!” and the like)

    7. Guinea pig*

      I can’t go too deep, but candidates are looked at/interviewed only after the medium gives his ok (and he does not get resumes as far as I know). I am a bit afraid of reprimands for putting this info out there if somehow they find out. But it makes hiring decisions a bit of a nightmare for our HR department. It is also sort of widely known in the company, all levels of employees are aware of that. I don’t understand how it is not everywhere online. I guess it is not discrimination since there isn’t a specific group of people targeted (no one is safe!)? I don’t know.

          1. Guinea pig*

            I had to google who miss Cleo is but yeah, sounds about right! he has a website and can read your aura and stuff for a small fee…

      3. Detective Amy Santiago*

        So like… the medium gets people’s names and then says if they should be considered/interviewed? Without meeting them in person?

      4. Ultraviolet*

        If somehow they find out? Do you think there’s any chance their medium will….see it coming?

        (This is so bizarre! Thanks for sharing.)

        1. Guinea pig*

          no, more like they track more of what we do on their computers than I think they do. (I am at work right now, but the medium is over 500 miles away. I don’t know what his reception zone is).
          I also feel like if I were to give details, someone from the company who happened to read here (and I suppose some of them do, we are highly dysfunctional and I have a lot of WTF moments every day), they could tell that it was about them.
          Maybe the paranoia got to me, ha!

          1. Ultraviolet*

            Sorry, it was just meant to be a joke about whether the medium could see the future. I’m sorry it ended up sounding like I was criticizing you for worrying they’d find out you mentioned it! I completely understand that.

      5. Volunteer Coordinator in NOVA*

        Does he meet with them first? If not, I wonder how he knows he’s picking up on the right person (not sure even how to phrase that). Like what if your name was Ted Bundy and he picks up the aura of the serial killer and not you! It puts a new spin to the google search/porn star question!

    8. Volunteer Coordinator in NOVA*

      I don’t think my last comment posted as the internet at my job is awful today but I kind of had that at a job! I had a coworker who considered themselves a healer which I can’t really judge on as I only caught a cold from her which she didn’t heal me of. She use to stand by our front desk as candidates walked out pretending to talk to the front desk. She’d then come and share with us about how “strong” of a sense she got off that person and if it was good or bad. She was special.

      1. Guinea Pig*

        I thought about it, but I feel like it is more of an anecdote than a letter. I feel like I don’t have much of a question about this. I sort of know this is not common/legal/ok… On the other hand it does make me question a lot of other decisions that are made in the office, like people who seem useless and terrible at their jobs that are beign kept onboard, or promotions given to people who I don’t think deserve it. I always think “did the medium ask for this?” and I will never know…

  129. B*

    I’ve been feeling kind of alienated from my coworkers and subtly frozen out (although I do not think this is deliberate on their part). It’s really sucky and kind of isolating and does not help with my own personal issues with self esteem and anxiety and it sucks!!! I just needed to vent this feeling but ugh.

    1. The work fairy*

      I feel you! it is annoying when these feelings creep up, then I start overthinking everything and it does not help! Usually I wait it out for a few days, and it turns out it was just paranoia on my part, and chances are it is the same thing for you as well!
      Having not so great self esteem sucks in the workplace just as it does elsewhere in life… Hang in there!

      1. B*

        Right??? I had convinced myself it was paranoia, but then happened to see a chat one coworker sent to a third coworker (she asked me to look at something on her computer and hadn’t minimized her chat) and it was about me and that just sent my anxiety skyrocketing.

    2. Channel Z*

      Sounds like me too. Sometimes I think it is work related, as our work group is set up in different parts of building and the mini groups rarely interact. I’m trying to make an effort but feel like I sound desperate. Then I give up and isolate myself further. And then feel this way outside work too.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      This stuff can eat us for breakfast if we don’t get some coping tools.

      Just because two people are good friends does not mean everyone else is hated.

      Be pleasant and professional to everyone there. Perhaps you can get on conversational terms with people who are not in your immediate area/department. It can help if you have good relationships with a few people.

      Keep rocking your work. People “know” us by how well we do our jobs. Do your job well, do not allow your mind to keep revisiting what these two may or may not be doing.

      This also works on the self-esteem. Only we can give ourselves a feeling of self-worth. Take pride in being professional and being a good worker. You are the only person who can create that. Follow your standards, live up to your own expectations of you.

  130. Perse's Mom*

    My company has a big company event once per year. There’s a presentation about where we are now and what the future of the company looks like, then food and wine, then an awards ceremony to recognize each area’s MVP, etc etc. (Area as in teapot designer vs teapot builder vs teapot sales)

    I won for my area. I’ve been nominated before, I didn’t really expect to win, and I’m not having imposter syndrome (I do work my tail off, and I know I’m good at what I do) but I still feel like I haven’t earned it somehow.

    I was really pumped last night, though – my team lead, boss, and grandboss are all thrilled, and the first two worked their own tails off for the nomination process – but now all I can think about is the person at work who complained openly and bitterly (to another coworker, when I was within eyesight and earshot because our desks are in the same part of the cubicle farm) the last time I was recognized on a smaller scale for my work.

  131. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    Update re: my breast reduction: I am now waiting to hear how much my insurance will cover the procedure. Last week I was super super late in asking how to phrase the time off request, and explain any visual difference (going from F to C), at work.

    I found out that it is an easy procedure and since I have a desk job, I only need a week off (well, 5 days, so maybe less if there’s a weekend). That makes me less worried for sure!

    I’m mad at myself though. The doctor I saw knew his stuff, but didn’t have good bedside manner and was a guy in his 60s to me in my 20s. And it was 10 minutes or less from “hi,” to “I am touching your chest and measuring.” I’m not assertive in a lot of situations and have anxiety, so it was hard.

    I’m kicking myself for not insisting on a female nurse to also be there or something, because I was definitely uncomfortable. But, I had also had a stressful afternoon then, since I was almost late to the appointment and worried about the work I was missing.

    1. Anonymous for this post*

      A little off topic: I had breast surgery when I was 16 due to significant asymmetry. Needless to say, very few 16-year-0lds are going to be comfortable with someone poking at their breasts. My doctor was amazing (and gay, which frankly helps to know when you’re 16 and having breast surgery, I’ll be honest.) He always explained what he was going to do beforehand and never left me exposed for longer than he had to, doing everything one at a time except when he needed to compare the two sides.

      Back on topic: I wouldn’t worry about explaining a visual difference. People are going to notice, but it’s the sort of thing most people are aware you just don’t comment on. It’s not like a haircut. “Oh, hey, I noticed that you look more like a C-cup now. How do you like it?”

      Recovery time was pretty minimal for me. It was about three days before I was out and about for quick trips and then maybe a week before I was back to a normalish routine.

      1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

        Thanks! I’m a “gold star lesbian,” so yeah, it wasn’t comfortable, but this is the best practice in the city and all doctors there are male.

    2. I had one too...*

      I had mine quite a few years ago, best thing I ever did. Don’t forget, even though you have a desk job, you will still be in some pain. You’ll find that a slight recline will help in the beginning, hopefully your desk chair has a bit of tilt in it. You won’t be able to carry a lot either, not even a small pile of files so make sure there’s a cart handy.

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I had this done a few years ago and I needed a month off before I was feeling up to returning to work at my desk job. If you haven’t already, google Breast Health Online and check out their forums. They are an invaluable tool for preparing and getting through this!

  132. ArtK*

    A couple of things. First, thank you to all the folks who gave advice and good words of encouragement on my comment last week. They really helped me move forward. Now some minor updates:

    Update 1: The company is still extremely rocky. Payroll has slipped again — because a $$$ check from a customer got lost in the mail. I know of two very good developers who are planning on leaving once they land new jobs.
    Update 2: My application to my preferred new company made it past the ATS keyword filter and my acquaintance passed the resume on as well. Of course, I’m kicking myself because I found a typo *after* I had submitted it. I’ll see my acquaintance this weekend in class so he may be able to give me an update. In the mean time, I’ve activated my network, updated my LinkedIn profile and done all the good things to prepare for an intensive job search.

  133. Bekx*

    Is this too job-hoppery?

    1st Job out of college: 1 yr, 8 mo
    2nd job: ~3 years

    Marketing/graphic design/web design.

    I like my job but I’m starting to realize that nothing is going to improve benefits wise…and there have been some changes in the past year that haven’t been the greatest. My department has had a culture shift that I’m really not liking.

    1. Leatherwings*

      No, that seems exceedingly reasonable. 3 years early in your career = not job hopping

    2. The IT Manager*

      I think 3+ years is not job hopping so you’re probably okay to move on without appearing like a job hopper.

    3. Manders*

      No, I think you’re fine. I’ve heard that marketing tends to be a field where some bouncing around is expected early in your career, but I haven’t been in the field long enough to confirm that.

      1. Bekx*

        I think what’s making me pause is we have a lot of people at my company who have been here for 40 years. 3 years here is like nothing.

        1. Manders*

          Web design and digital marketing weren’t even a thing 40 years ago, and graphic design was done with different tools. And just in the last 3 years, marketing has gone through some seismic changes and a lot of things that used to be considered best practice are now defunct. So I don’t think you have to worry too much about comparing your career trajectory to people who’ve been in place for 40 years, because your job duties haven’t even *existed* that long.

    4. Izzy Legal*

      I am in marketing and followed almost this same timeline (appx 2 years, appx 3 years at first and second jobs, respectively). You’re totally fine; don’t worry about appearing as job-hoppery.

  134. Meeeeeeeeee*

    Ugh, my company is so dysfunctional right now. All communication has broken down, higher ups seem either terrified for their jobs (resulting in lots of angst, urgent!!! requests, and blame shifting) or completely checked out, rumors of layoffs abound, vendors are getting strung along, and I don’t have time to do my regular work because I have to work on projects that are ill-defined and keep changing, meaning that I don’t even feel good about my output. I am so fed up. My direct colleagues are great but everything else is terrible.
    Did have a chat with an experienced contractor who said this is the most dysfunctional workplace she has seen. So that was reassuring.
    I really wanted to stay here through January (for 401K vesting and job history reasons) but I don’t think I’ll make it.

    1. New Window*

      That really sucks. At least your direct colleagues are great; they can be that lifeline of sanity as you try to bear through it. I get the wanting to stay for vesting and such, but January is a long ways away, and that’s a heavy load for mental health to withstand. I hope things go as well as they can, and that the phrasing AAM has for apploicants explaining their job searching proves useful.

  135. Jessica*

    I am planning to leave my job. It has been affecting my mental health and just isn’t a good fit for me. Up until now, my attendance has been excellent. I show up every day and on time.
    However, I am considering taking some sick days as mental health days. I have a lot of sick time banked as it rolls over year after year.
    How often do you think I can get away with taking sick days? Is two a month too conspicuous? Obviously I wouldn’t make them all on Friday’s or Monday’s, because it might look like I was taking a 3 day weekend.
    It would not affect anyone else’s workload and my performance has been very good, if that matters.
    So do you think taking one every two or three weeks is okay? I feel that I’ve earned them and should use at least some of them. I won’t receive compensation when I resign for unused sick days.
    Thanks in advance.

    1. The Not Mad But Sometimes Irritable Scientist*

      It’s part of your compensation package, and I think you can spend them however you wish.

    2. MegaMoose, Esq*

      I don’t think using one every two or three weeks should be an issue, even if it was on a Friday or Monday (that’s 40% of the work week!). If you’re not worried about your manager drawing any conclusions you don’t want them to be drawing, could you say you’re going to have a recurring appointment every other Wednesday (or whatever) for the immediate future?

  136. Q*

    I had a really great boss for ten years, but I was too young and inexperienced at the time to realize it. I’ve moved on to a couple other jobs, but I keep thinking how none of my other bosses compare to her. I truly learned so much from her and her director. The problem is I was immature, a bit of a total s##t, and probably not the easiest employee to manage. I cringe when I look back at how I behaved, but it was my first job out of college in my 20’s. I’ve grown a lot since then (thank god), but I keep thinking I should write her an email to thank her for being an awesome boss. I feel like this may look like an obvious attempt to curry favor in case I need to use her as a reference, because I was known for not overly revealing my emotions. Should I email her? I left on sort of ok terms (I was able to give a month’s notice because I was confident she would allow me). I just don’t want this to look like a lame attempt to get a good reference in the future.

    1. Amber Rose*

      Do it! Managers love to hear that stuff. And if she’s that great, she probably won’t be suspicious or suspect you of ulterior motives.

    2. Jessica*

      Write to her! I did the same recently and it went over very well. And it never hurts to keep in touch with your references.

    5. FluffyToodie*

      I wasn’t a jerk to one of my old managers, but I know that I didn’t appreciate her as much as I could’ve. We didn’t have a falling out or anything, and we kept in touch as FB friends after I left. But later on, when I realized how much she had helped me grow, and what a champion she was for me, and all that I learned from her–I wrote and thanked her for just that. A few months later she died unexpectedly. I am so so glad I did that–I bet you will be glad, too!

  137. Chickaletta*

    Vent: I inadvertently got a new client from hell. I’m a freelancer and was working at a coffee shop the other day, minding my own business, when a sales-y guy started talking to me. I’m friendly by nature, so I conversed back with him, although I could tell exactly what kind of person he was from the bat (the first question he asked was how old I was, which I refused to answer, then he spent half an hour talking about how wonderful his product was and that he needed my help designing packaging for it and it was going to “change my life”).

    Long story short, as he’s a salesperson and I’m not strong on negotiating skills, he convinced me to do work for him at 30% less than what I asked for and within a 24 hr timeline, which is really hard to make on the best of days for the type of work he wanted done. I agreed in order to get out the conversation and also because I figured he’d never follow through.

    I was half right. He didn’t deliver any of the things I need to get started, so 24 hour timeline was easily blown. Didn’t hear from him again until this morning. He still doesn’t have what I need, expects me to work on his project anyway, and when I told him it would be Tuesday at the earliest (assuming he actually sends me what I need) because I have other clients lined-up and it’s mid-Friday already, he got upset. I asked if it still made sense for me to do this project for him, hoping he would say no. Unfortunately, he said he’ll still send me the stuff and have me work on it.

    I will do the job as correctly as I can, of course, because I promised him and I keep my work. But I won’t spend a lot of time on it, and I’m sure as hell not going to work on my days off since he refused to pay rush charges and he missed his own deadline anyway.

    Naturally, he’s a got a side-project developing an app that’s going to be “bigger than Facebook”.

    Some people are amazingly delusional.

    2. Lizabeth*

      If he doesn’t come up with ALL the information you need to complete the job the next time he contacts you, fired him as client. He will drag this out to infinity and end up costing you more time and money than he’s paying you.

      Lack of organization on his part does not constitute an emergency or money loss on your part.

    3. MuseumChick*

      So, do you have a written contract with him? If not I fire this client. “Unfortunately I will not be able to move forward on this project. I can recommend some other freelancers if you are interested.”

      1. PollyQ*

        ^^This. If this is how he’s acting when it comes to getting you requirements, just imagine what it’ll be like trying to get paid.

    4. New Window*

      – He didn’t deliver any of the things I need to get started, so 24 hour timeline was easily blown.
      – …the first question he asked was how old I was…
      – Naturally, he’s a got a side-project developing an app that’s going to be “bigger than Facebook”.
      – Some people are amazingly delusional.

      He sounds like a self-aggrandizing, unreliable, bloviating jerk who show no respect for others and doesn’t know how professionalism works.

      Now, I’ve Internet-known you for all of five minutes, but you seem like you have a sound, insightful, and professional head on your shoulders. You gave your word in good faith after you both made an agreement, and immediately he didn’t give you what you needed to accommodate his stretch of a request. What he’s doing isn’t part of the original agreement. I see that has him breaking his promise and not keeping his word. Ergo, you are not in the situation you gave your word for, and you have every right to drop him, or raise your rates.

  139. writelhd*

    A colleague who used to engage in friendly discussion with me on occasion about topics of mutual interest, and who has a reputation in general for being friendly and open…has become noticeably cold to me for a few months now. At first I thought I had to be imagining it, but lately his behavior is getting unmistakably icy (to the point where when we pass each other in the hall he just stares, and when I say “hi” or “good morning”, he just stares at me and says nothing at all.) and it’s such a marked change from a general friendly demeanor that he used to show me, and that I observe him still showing to others, that I am increasingly certain I’m not imagining this. I’m one step higher in the (rather informal) management chain than him by virtue of being a department head (of a department of…me) and he’s not someone I manage myself, so, fine, we don’t need to be BFFs. But, I have been promoted to head up a company-wide initiative that at times will need his input, and in the past I’ve been team lead on projects he’s been on, so I need us to have a good professional relationship. So far I don’t think the professional nature of our interactions is diminished, but they are still limited so I can’t quite tell. Regardless, it bugs me to be treated so inexplicably coldly. As someone who is now stepping into a new leadership position and is trying to learn how to better myself all the time, I wonder if there’s some reason he’s treating me this way that would be good feedback for me to have. I realize what he has to say could also be hurtful and petty, but there may also be some huge blind spot in my behavior that I am really worried I need to be aware of. Should I ask him what his problem with me is? How?

    1. Kathleen Adams*

      I do think you should talk to him. I mean, it’s just so weird and uncomfortable. But you don’t have to get too FEELINGS-ish. Can you come up with a work-related example of coldness and ask him about that? That way, you can focus on the work problem and avoid sounding like you’re yearning after a lost friend.

      1. writelhd*

        I like the suggestion to avoid being “feeling-ish”, it’s my instinct that would be bad, but I also do tend to be a pretty open and honest person with people I am comfortable with, so I am aware that the risk of me getting slightly “FEELINGS-ish” even when trying not to is somewhat high. Which is why I’ve been cautious about doing anything at all, honestly. The work-related example could be a good place to start, better than, say, confronting him at the water cooler.

    2. Imaginary Number*

      I wouldn’t start with asking him outright. Find an excuse to start a friendly and non work-related conversation and see how he responds. Not just “hey how’s it going” or “hey how was your weekend” but something specific. Go over to his desk (when it doesn’t look like he’s particularly busy) and show him a printout of a hilarious article about your mutual interest or something. It will be hard for him to blow you off without making it very obvious that he’s trying to do so. Only then would I (privately) ask him if he’s upset with you about something. If someone has a script, that would be better. I’m not good at them.

      1. The Not Mad But Sometimes Irritable Scientist*

        Oooh. No, I would’t do this. I’d address it straightwaway, not try to pad it with an article or something.

        1. Kathleen Adams*

          I agree. The social issue is interesting, but it’s a distraction from writelhd’s actual problem, which is “I just want to work OK with this guy.” So if work is the problem, address the work problem. Don’t push the social part, and I think trying to nudge him into a non-work discussion would do just that. It would be counterproductive. Writelhd doesn’t need the colleague to act like a buddy; he just needs him to be professionally courteous enough that they can work well together.

    3. Jessesgirl72*

      Did the coldness start as you stepped into this new leadership position?

      But honestly, it’s easier to just ask than to speculate. Just say you’ve noticed a difference in the past few months in your interactions with him, and ask if you’ve done anything to offend him, or if there’s something you need to be aware of.

      1. writelhd*

        Not really because that new position was only announced to the company last week, though I’ve known it was coming for a couple of months. But it might have started around the time I started being team lead on some projects we were working on together…the feeling was kind of fuzzy at first.

    4. The Not Mad But Sometimes Irritable Scientist*

      I’d address it directly and simply: “Hey, Fergus. I’ve noticed that you’ve been quite reserved with me over the past few months, and hoped I hadn’t inadvertantly offended you. Is there any air between us that needs clearing? We’ll be working together on the XYZ project, so I don’t want to start on the wrong foot.”

      1. writelhd*

        That is something in line with what I was thinking might work, if I could bring myself to open my mouth and say it.

        1. Kathleen Adams*

          I like that, too. Is there somewhere private you can have this conversation, e.g., “Hi, could you come in here for a minute? There’s something that I’ve wanted to discuss.” [Close door.] I’ve noticed that you’ve been quite reserved…”

        3. zora*

          practice it in front of the mirror over the weekend! do it A LOT, it sounds weird, but it really does help.

        4. Not So NewReader*

          BTDT.

          I can tell you from experience that people never say the things we think they will say.
          It’s hard but not for the reasons you’d think.

          You: “Okay, you seem distracted. What’s up?”
          Him: “Nothing.”
          You: “We used to chat regularly and that stopped suddenly. I can’t figure out what went wrong here.”
          Him: “YOU PARKED IN MY SPOT.” Or “You took my best pen!”
          You (trying to contain your amusement): REAALLY? I DID?

          Know where you are going with the conversation.
          So here, you’d apologize, return the pen/ buy a new one or promise never to park in his spot again.
          Then you keep going, “Look, I liked our chats. I feel we work well together. I am very sorry to hear that you felt you could not tell me right away about this problem. Going forward, I want to know right away if there is a problem. I think that it’s important to work through these things and go back to doing good team work. So, now, will you tell me if something is bothering you right away, so we can deal with it?”

  140. Imaginary Number*

    Workplace injuries (not a question, just an embarrassing story.) I sprained my ankle walking out of the building at work the other day. Hit a patch of uneven pavement and my (already unstable) ankle rolled. It was bad enough that I couldn’t immediately stand up. Just so happens that my boss’s boss, another exec at my boss’s level, and our HR manager were all walking out of the building at the same time, so there I am lying in the road trying not to cry and having to explain that I think I just sprained my ankle while they’re all uncomfortably trying to figure out what they should be doing (other than discussing the required reports.) I finally asked if someone could grab my coworker who knows me well, since he lives near me and could drive me home. Next day I was on crutches.

    1. The Not Mad But Sometimes Irritable Scientist*

      Sounds like the people who should be embarrassed are the bosses.

      I know you didn’t have a question, but you could totally bring that up with your facility maintenance (or whoever liases with the landlord) to get that fixed.

      1. Imaginary Number*

        They were nice. Just completely clueless about how to deal with a non-emergency injury.

        Because HR was there when it happened they’re already all over fixing that spot.

    2. MWKate*

      That sounds like a really unpleasant experience (both the awkward talk and the actual spraining). I’ve fallen right on my rear in the parking lot in front of people before – it’s not a great feeling. I’m sure they didn’t think poorly of you at all. Hope your ankle feels better soon!

    3. writelhd*

      Sorry about your ankle. I think ankle sprains can be weird for people to process, because sometimes they’re really minor, and sometimes people just roll their ankle and it’s not even sprained and they’re fine soon after…but sometimes they’re really…not! I feel you. I sprained my ankle four times, three times of which I don’t really understand why the heck I fell! The most recent time (8 weeks ago and it’s still not back to normal), I was trail running, and I couldn’t get up right away either. Several people passed me on the trail and not a one of them stopped to ask me if I was ok even as I sat there with my shoe off holding my foot trying not to cry, even the ones who said “hi” like we do in the south to strangers we pass on the street or on trails…

    4. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      Sorry to hear that, I did the same thing a few years ago, right in the lobby (thankfully nobody saw me fall). The least they could have done was walk you in to a chair or something, goodness.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Sounds like people could use some first aid training.
      That is all this is, in my opinion. No one knew how to help an injured person. Granted, it’s not exactly in our genes at birth.

      The first thing they should have asked is if you wanted an ambulance.
      If you were on the clock or on company property it might be a comp claim. They should be helping you with that,too.

  141. Kathleen Adams*

    I’d like to get you guys’ opinion on this. Up until a couple of weeks ago, I had a coworker who I will refer to as Fergus. I didn’t supervise Fergus but I do oversee some projects that he contributed to. He’s a pretty young guy (this was his second job out of university), but he at least gave the appearance of being fairly mature for his age.

    Fergus was not happy here – that was very easy to see. I think he wanted to work for this organization but in a different department. He was frequently criticized for his job performance. Some of the criticisms were unfair, but IMO, most were fair; some were minor and fixable; some were pretty significant; and some he was clearly not interested in fixing.

    Anyway, we’ve been going through a LOT of personnel changes in my and Fergus’ department, including the firing/laying off of two people (the old “We want to go in a different direction” thing), and actually, both of them were significantly better at their jobs than Fergus. Part of Fergus’ job is tied to our state legislature, which is in session until the end of April, and based on the known issues with Fergus, I would not have been at all surprised if he had been fired after the session ended. I think that’s what Fergus expected too, really.

    But two weeks ago, he came in after hours, grabbed a bunch of documents off his computer and cleaned out his office, and then marched in the next day and resigned, effective immediately. I assumed at the time that he had another job, but apparently not, at least not as far as I can tell, and I’m pretty sure I’d hear if he’d got one. (It’s a small and quite incestuous industry – we alllll know each other.)

    With that background, my question is: How long do you think leaving without notice and at a very awkward time for the organization will haunt him? He can’t say he was abused here or asked to do anything unethical or dangerous. He was asked to do things he really didn’t want to do, though – and I’m sure the job he had here wasn’t the job he wanted. (I think he accepted the job in this department hoping to work his way into the other department, but of course screwing up the job you have isn’t a great way to sell people on giving you the job you want.) This is only his second job out of college, and he’s eliminated any chance of even a partially decent reference.

    So what do you think?

    1. The Not Mad But Sometimes Irritable Scientist*

      Sounds like he’s trying the old “I can see where to go by the light of all these bridges I just lit on fire” routine. I think a display like that will haunt him pretty badly. Hope he’s not so specialized that his skills aren’t transferable, because my prediction is that everyone will know about him.

      1. Kathleen Adams*

        That’s my feeling too, but – I’m trying to think of reasons why I’d leave a job I’d held for a year and a half without giving notice, it’s a pretty short list of reasons, and “I just don’t like my job” isn’t one of them.

        His *skills* are fairly transferable, but if I’m right about his ambitions (he’s very interested in politics), those aren’t that transferable, and what’s more, I think he’s tied pretty close to this area. Poor kid. He’s not a bad guy, so it’s a shame.

        1. The Not Mad But Sometimes Irritable Scientist*

          Short of “I discovered that company leadership was engaged in a jail-time felony” or “my boss took a swing at me” or something, I can’t imagine what.

          1. Kathleen Adams*

            Yes, exactly. “I was expected to work in a building crawling with rats and with an unsafe floor”? Get out ASAP. “I couldn’t be a party to embezzlement”? Run fast, run far. “I was bullied and taunted, my boss said that wasn’t a big deal and we don’t have an HR department”? Get out now with my blessing and the blessing of every decent person.

            But “I was hired to be a writer/communicator but the organization would only let me *be* a writer/communicator and wouldn’t let me live my dream of being a lobbyist”? I don’t think so. That’s when you start applying for other jobs or, at the very least, you give your two-week notice.

    2. ArtK*

      Given the way you describe the industry, this could haunt him for a very, very long time. It could even be a career killer if there is a lot of competition for jobs.

      1. Kathleen Adams*

        I hope you’re wrong – as I said, he’s not a bad guy – but jeez, major screw-up, right?

  142. Jessesgirl72*

    So my husband talked to his boss this week about working remotely while we’re waiting for the baby to be born via surrogate in Europe, and for the State Department to issue his passport, while the boss was in town this week from headquarters. He has 3 weeks vacation, plus another week of PTO from “floating holidays” and we’ll need to be there 5-6 weeks. The boss approved 2-3 weeks of remote work, pending approval from Legal in case the country we’ll be in has some kind of ban on it from taking company equipment there. (Unlikely a problem- but he’s going to file for FMLA, regardless, just in case.) He’s out of the running to replace his left-with-no-notice Manager, due to not enough experience managing people, but was promised opportunities to fix that gap. Problem is, the timeline for the project that the boss was going to give him has been moved up, and guess when it starts? :P

    Nothing to be done about that, since the baby is coming in approximately 20 more weeks, regardless of Teapot projects.

    The other weirdness is that his boss kept insisting that my husband could give him a more firm timeline of when he’ll be back (and even when we leave is tentative, because if the surrogate goes into labor before we leave, we’ll be on the next flight!) , because both of HIS children were born right on their due dates, and he doesn’t seem to believe that this is rare. It’s so weird!

    And in the meantime, they’ve put a hiring freeze on his division, so the Manager’s position that’s been open since November is going to remain open indefinitely… We feel sorry for the temporary guy who is doing the day-to-day without any bump in pay or Title.

    So my husband has the vibe that his upward progress at the company is now really limited. He was contacted by a recruiter from Very Large Famous Company that same day, who liked his resume (Of course, I said- they are a gov’t contractor, and only the gov’t still uses the dead programming language he primarily used in his OldJob) and he has given her permission to submit his resume. Otherwise, our agreement was that he wasn’t going to look to relocate us until the baby is a year old.

    1. CAA*

      Congrats on the coming baby.

      You and your husband need to be aware that he won’t be eligible for FMLA at a new employer until he’s been there for a year. Also, if he leaves current employer while on FMLA, they can require him to reimburse them for any health insurance premiums they paid for him and his family while he was out.

      1. Jessesgirl72*

        Yes, we already had that discussion about FMLA. He will either negotiate the time off or a delayed start, if they want him badly enough. If they don’t, then he won’t take a new job.

        And likely, at least for now, he won’t use any FMLA at the current job. Working remotely, even while abroad, is regularly approved (case-by-case basis), and there’s no reason to believe the country where we’ll be is on the “banned” list. Within his department, someone recently worked remotely for a month while visiting family in Asia.

        Worst case, he’d come back and give notice.

  143. MWKate*

    So – I had several interviews at an Graduate Assistantship type “fair” on Monday. I think it went all right (I’m always pretty critical of how I do so I can have issues speculating), despite the fact that I was about 5 years older than the next oldest potential student and about 9-10 years older than the rest of them. (Although one girl did ask if I had taken a gap year after getting my BA. I managed not to hug her.)

    I haven’t heard anything yet – but since getting one of these positions is a requirement of getting into the program, I’m really really hoping to hear something soon. Apparently 2-10 days is the norm for hearing back. My anxiety says since it’s been 4 it means I’m out, but logically – I know I may likely still hear back.

  144. Izzy Legal*

    I work at a non-profit which has several concurrent projects and events, each having separate budgets. As such, each employee essentially bills their hours to the project/event, like we work at an agency.

    I am a salaried employee, receiving the same amount of pay no matter the hours I work, but the project/event gets billed for every hour. In trying to be a good employee, I don’t bill all my hours, because I wouldn’t want the project/event to suffer, plus I don’t get overtime for working 15 hours on something when I only bill 9. Right now, I’m billing 40 hours per week, max, but in reality, am working 50 or 55 hours. I don’t think my boss is aware of my hours; she knows I work hard and work more than 40 hours most weeks, but doesn’t know the extent. How can I bring it up to her now? I am on the verge of burn out, but don’t have much to demonstrate my stance, minus timestamps on emails/projects.

    1. MegaMoose, Esq*

      Oh dear, it sounds like you’ve been under-billing to make it look like the project isn’t taking as long as it actually is? That’s not great. Just because you’re not getting overtime doesn’t mean it’s not important for your boss to know how much time things are actually taking. It sounds like you need to rip off that band-aid and come clean.

    2. H.C.*

      It’s unfortunate you’ve been underbilling, which not only devalues your work and make project expenses seem cheaper than it actually is, but it also means your boss have less of a case in petitioning for a new position to be opened because there’s only proof of 40 hours of work being done each week.

      I agree with MegaMoose on bringing this up with your boss, and that you bill for all your hours worked moving forward. In meantime, is there a way you can shift priorities so you are not going that much over 40 hours week, since it seems unlikely your org will open up a position until there’s a consistent track record of 50-55 hours of work being done.

      1. Izzy Legal*

        Thank you both. Indeed, I think this will just take a frank discussion with my manager. It’s difficult to shift priorities right now, or eliminate/reduce work altogther, as we’re extraordinarily understaffed after two rounds of layoffs (I’m in an industry which is suffering right now).

        Thank you again,

  145. Background checks...*

    I accepted a written offer that was contingent on the background check. I have no criminal or misdemeanors or anything, not even a parking ticket, but I’m still worried because I had to put in notice already in order to give two weeks to my current employer. Any words of comfort or advice while I wait? — Marcy Marketer

    1. MegaMoose, Esq*

      Good luck! I’ve had to get background checks a number of times and never had an issue, but that’s not to say that issues don’t arise. Hopefully nothing goes sideways here.

    2. The Not Mad But Sometimes Irritable Scientist*

      This is really, really nothing to worry about, unless you’ve got a record – it’s a pro forma thing.

      1. Marcy Marketer*

        Thank you! That does make me feel better :) I just keep worrying– what if I put the wrong month as a start date for my job 10 years ago? Or what if they wanted my camp counselor summer job on my work experience (even though it didn’t ask for full work history).

        1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          Noooo, this is just like, “So has Marcy lit any cats on fire? No? Cool.”

    3. Colette*

      It would be better to negotiate a start date after the background check is complete. They’ll probably find nothing, but they can take longer than anticipated, and people make mistakes (I.e. Someone else with your name commits a crime, and that causes issues).

      But you can’t undo the past, so hang in there and hope it all goes smoothly.

      1. Marcy Marketer*

        They gave me a verbal offer and then asked me my start date before telling me about the background check. I said I needed two weeks from a written offer, and when it came it had the info about the check. I should have gone back to renegotiate, but I took the risk. Now I kind of wish I didn’t!

    4. Not So NewReader*

      It will be okay.
      Look around and start to prepare for leaving one job and going to a new job. Keep yourself busy, that will help.

  146. Seren*

    Want to report that I talked with my boss about my interest in transferring today! I’ve been putting it off for months because I’ve been scared I’d be walked off the premises, but Boss was not upset, said I had their full support, and talked about wanting everyone to find what they’re interested in as a job. Thank the Lord.

    That’s all. And my manager just left so I definitely am not getting walked out.

    1. Fortitude Jones*

      Ha! I had that same discussion with my supervisor at the end of January. I too was concerned about retaliation, but so far, no one had indicated my current job is in jeopardy. In fact, my supervisor is being more diligent about making sure my workload is reasonable, and my division SVP is putting in a good word for me with the leaders in our company I’d like to work for.

  147. Life after Recruiting*

    I am a recruiter for a very small branch of a large national company. My job is very busy and challenging-if I can even get people to show up for interviews that are scheduled, a lot of them lie about their criminal backgrounds, try to fake the drug test, or are abusive to me when I decide not to hire them because they are not a good candidate for the job. I don’t handle many temp jobs, it’s all long-term temp to hire and direct placement positions. I answer the phone over 50 times a days and send over a hundred emails, all while doing interviews and filling jobs and completing the hiring process. My job can be really great and meaningful but it’s so easy to get discouraged about the workload and the way people treat me. I don’t have a college degree (it’s one of my life goals, but it’s tough to complete while raising a family and working), so going anywhere in HR besides recruiting is not going to happen. My question is what type of jobs are good to transition into after recruiting? I love helping people but I this job has completely soured me on working with the general public any longer. For the record, my company is great, my bosses are amazing and coworkers are wonderful. But I work by myself for about 6 hours a day in the office and have had multiple unsafe situations happen. Thank you for any ideas!

    1. Beansidhe*

      I’m sorry you’ve had to deal with unsafe circumstances and abusive clients.
      Found my current position thru a temp agency you folks do great work! I have no idea what comes after for you but maybe working in “intake” at a hospital? It’s similar, but with better benefits? Can I ask how you got into recruiting? To me it’s an interesting career choice. I can say I agree about many people fudging their background and failing testing, background checks. Every temp job I took had plenty of folks who started and had to be let go for the reasons you outlined. It’s depressing for us coworkers as well. You want to be pleasant and congenial but it’s a revolving door of new people sadly. Plus personally I had a fear that just because I was a “temp” I’d get lumped in with the rest. That part was unsettling.
      Good luck with moving onto something better and different!!

  148. missj928*

    I followed Alison’s cover letter and resume advice and it really helped. I have landed my first permanent job in my field since I graduated almost 3 years ago. I start April 1st once my contract position is up.

    1. MegaMoose, Esq*

      Oh wow, that’s great – congratulations! I’ve been trying to find permanent work in my field for several years myself, so I know how rough that process can be. I hope your new job is fantastic!

  149. Lore*

    Work triumphs of the week, anyone? (I know it’s late but hoping others will chime in.)

    I have two: 1) after completing a period in which I successfully hit nine major deadlines in nine days, today I am working from home, in my pajamas, and getting rid of number one thing-hanging-over-my-head-while-fires-got-put-out. And 2) my company subsidized employee membership in a local nonprofit for the year, and our CEO joined their board. It’s an organization dear to my heart, for which I’ve done a lot of volunteer and freelance work, but I’d never actually joined before (and thought I wouldn’t necessarily be eligible for a number of reasons). I went to a members’ event this week, and the CEO was there, and I forced myself to go over and say hello and thank him for my being there–and had the first conversation I’ve ever had with him that was more than a hello at the holiday party (it’s a very large company).

    1. MegaMoose, Esq*

      I posted earlier, too, but I’d say making not one but THREE networking contacts this week was a pretty big personal work triumph. I think that’s more than I managed in 2015 and 2016 combined.

    2. Liane*

      Had an interview at a hospital I’d really like to work. Good Friend who works there had been encouraging me to apply because of the benefits (state job) and she knew I had the aptitude and skills for positions similar to hers. I have been putting in for openings for several months and last month decided to add a cover letter. I hadn’t previously because it’s an online system (better than most) which required that if you used a cover letter it was to be page 1 of your resume, and you can only have one resume uploaded at any time. So it was a vaguer/less targeted cover letter than I would normally use; only the 2 things most of the jobs I was likely to apply for had in common. But it must have been enough because it got me an interview in the job I preferred.
      I also really like Hospital’s process–even the online application system is great! It sends email notices of new openings (if you opt in for that), lets you apply for multiple openings at once, an email confirmation of your application, and notifies you right away (with a profession form email) if someone else is hired or they decide not to fill it. The process is fast.
      I also liked the interviewer. She set up the appointment herself and made sure I understood what PRN meant at her org, that I wouldn’t have set hours or office, how I would be scheduled. At the interview itself, she had set but reasonable questions and made it a back and forth experience. She also brought up all the hiring they were doing, and would continue to do, emphasizing that it was expansion, not high turnover. I appreciated that awareness of how things might be perceived by applicants. Hoping to hear next Friday that I got the job.

  150. Kindling*

    I’m negotiating a raise for the first time in my career probably within the next week. I already successfully asked for a title bump and they’re giving it to me, but we haven’t hashed out the details of the new salary yet. My boss seemed very willing to give me the title bump and didn’t require any convincing; I’ve already been doing tasks far and beyond what I was hired for pretty much the whole time I’ve worked here.

    Researching the market rate for my position is challenging because essentially, it’s a job where the ‘Teapot Engineer’ for one department is practically doing an entirely different job than a ‘Teapot Engineer’ in another department. The tasks for the role vary so wildly from department to department that even if I did find out the salary for someone in my role in another department, it really wouldn’t be a great comparison.

    Anyway, this all boils down to: would it come off as out of touch to ask for a 22% raise, given that I’ve both been performing very well and been categorized as more junior than I probably should have been for about a year now? I did receive an approximately 5% increase at my one year anniversary, but that was an automatic bump because we’re unionized. I don’t want to specify my exact salary, but a 22% raise would be in the thousands of dollars, not tens of thousands or anything.

    Any thoughts would be appreciated. Sorry if this is a little vague – including all the details would be too identifying, plus too much rambling.

    1. Jan Levinson*

      It’s a little difficult to answer this without knowing any details.

      However, I don’t think it’s necessarily unreasonable to ask for a 22% raise based on what you’ve described. I was recently in a similar situation – added responsibilities, started off in an “overly junior” position, etc. I asked for a 13% raise, which for me was an additional $5k/year. I ended up getting that 13%. I think the key is going into your meeting very prepared, and providing concrete examples of what you’ve done to earn that raise. I went into my meeting with a binder full of correspondence with customers, examples of times I had gone above and beyond, training documents that I’d made from scratch for coworkers, etc. I think I made it hard for them NOT to give me the raise I was asking for after seeing everything I’d provided. Give them evidence of what your worth and you’ll do great! Also, the more I think about it, I would encourage you to stick with your 22%. Since it’s NOT tens of thousands of dollars, it likely won’t look out of touch. It’s better to start high and have them come down on you than to start low and up even lower than that!

      Good luck, Kindling!

      1. Kindling*

        Yeah, understandable, I just didn’t want to write a ten paragraph novella, haha. Thank you for your insight.

        I’ll add that a 22% raise would be an approximately $8,500 increase. I’m sure people could do some backwards math to figure out my salary, but oh well. If they talk me a down from that, I’d still be happy with a $4,500-$6,000 raise. (Less than that and it might start to be a little disappointing…)

        Thank you!

  151. Serious Pillowfight*

    I’m looking forward to one day working in an industry where I’m paid well because that’s what I’m worth and the company is profitable, instead of skimpily and grudgingly because the industry isn’t doing well, there are too many managers, and the mentality is, “Let’s see how little we can get away with paying our underlings.”

    1. writelhd*

      The corollary of “let’s see how few employees we can get away with/how many different jobs we can get away with one employee doing!” for the same reasons is fun too.

  152. Apple Grumble*

    Just a vent here. Great-grandboss (who is otherwise fantastic) misunderstood something and just isn’t grasping this.

    Great-grandboss: we’re having a strategy meeting soon about striped teapots. Is there any recent research on the risks and benefits of striped teapots?

    So we send her the information she’s asked for, which shows that striped teapots continue to be shown to be effective and not harmful, recent research supports what we already knew.

    Great-grandboss: oh, well that’s not what [leading teapot expert] Wakeen Jones told me.

    I wonder what on earth he could possibly have said and worry that I don’t know my field as well as I think I do (and think it might’ve helped if she’d bothered to mention this sooner).

    Senior colleague meets with her and reports back that Wakeen actually said luminous teapot varnish was harmful. We already know this is harmful. We don’t use it. It’s not used in striped teapots so there’s no problem. Colleague says he has clarified this. So it is seemingly all sorted.

    This week, I go to a conference and send some notes round about the growing demand for striped teapots. Grandboss (who was on vacation when the above happened) replies asking if I happened to get any notes on the risks and benefits of providing striped teapots?

    Recognising the question from before, I talk to him and ask if this is for the strategy meeting. He says yes, it’s just that Great-grandboss heard something from Wakeen Jones that has got her worried about striped teapots. I explain that Wakeen was actually talking about something else and we already cleared this up while he was on vacation, but agree to send him any further information.

    So I’ve sent him some further information and have very diplomatically explained that there has been a lack of clarity (there actually really hasn’t) about this but luminous teapot varnish is never used in striped teapots, which are indeed effective and are significantly helpful to our service users so we should continue to provide them. I also dug out and summarised a paper by Wakeen Jones explaining the benefits of striped teapots.

    But it feels absurd that we’re still trying to answer the wrong question instead of Great-grandboss grasping that she misunderstood and there is no question as we already agree with Wakeen Jones on everything.

    We think we’ve been saying: striped teapots are beneficial, Wakeen Jones says luminous teapot varnish is harmful but it’s not used in striped teapots so there’s no problem.

    She still thinks he was talking about striped teapots and just isn’t hearing it. The frustrating thing is that if we could get her to run this past Wakeen Jones he’d say the same as us.

    And breathe…

    1. SophieChotek*

      Ugh hate that when that happens.
      Any chance Wakeen Jones could step in to “clarify” matters…”I think you misunderstood something I said the other day…”….

      1. Apple Grumble*

        I wish! She’s the only one who has a relationship with him. I don’t know him and if I ask him to clarify I’ll make her look stupid. Because THIS IS STUPID.

        Thanks though :-)

  153. AMB08*

    I am currently over thinking follow-up/thank you notes from an interview earlier this week. I am not sure what to say much beyond “I enjoyed meeting all of you and am still interested in the job.” The position doesn’t really have anything remarkable about it that I can expand on or add to and I am at a loss. I want to send something though so would the the simple response above be better than nothing?

      1. AMB08*

        Not really. This is very close to my house and my being local seemed to be one of the points in my favor (lots of community involvement, it’s a library), so I thought about bringing that up again in some way.

  154. Hoorah*

    When job applicants receive feedback for why they were rejected – after they requested feedback from hiring managers – why do they not say thank you?

    It takes 10 seconds to email back and say thank you for your comments. It seems like basic professional courtesy yet very few people seem to do it.

    1. Allypopx*

      Hmm…because it’s extremely difficult for someone to thank another person for criticizing them, maybe?

      Either way, yes it’s unprofessional.

      1. Hoorah*

        If they specifically request information on what they can do better, it seems kind of silly to get offended over being “criticised”. Particularly if someone took the time to give professional feedback.

        1. Allypopx*

          Oh it’s super silly but given my experience with job applicants I still see it being possible.

    2. TimeForWine?*

      I interview more than 100 people annually for a handful of positions and I actually don’t appreciate when they ask why they weren’t selected because it generally comes with a long explanation of why we were wrong for not choosing them. It is worth noting my profession has a unique interview/selection period and we are overwhelmed with calls/emails/applications for half the year.
      I generally do not respond to requests about why they weren’t selected for an interview because of the volume (thousands of applicants) but I always respond to those who interviewed with a sincere, personal email along the lines of “we really liked you but there were more competitive applicants and we’d like to keep your app on file if you are ok with that, please let me know if you are not interested in being considered for future opportunities” or as blunt as necessary…

      I really prefer not to have another email to delete.

  155. StartupLifeLisa*

    Startup life continues to be truly odd.

    We are having performance reviews. For the first time ever. They include a question when reviewing one’s manager, about whether or not one’s manager takes specific steps to ensure a diverse, inclusive environment.

    How does one review one’s manager on this question, at a company that is over 90% male, 0% black, and has laid off or driven to resign nearly all the white women or racial minorities ever hired?

    I chose the rating “Inconsistent.”

    1. Ann O.*

      If they’ve laid off or drive to resign nearly all non-white men, wouldn’t the answer be that the manager has not taken specific steps to ensure a diverse, inclusive environment? The reviews asking the question suggests that someone is noticing and considering this to be a problem. No one’s helped by false information.

      1. StartupLifeLisa*

        I think it’s more that they’re noticing and paying lip service to the issue, honestly. But I’ve become pretty cynical here.

  157. Argh!*

    One of my coworkers was treated extremely shabbily last Friday and I found out on Monday. I’m still bothered by it. My boss’s boss delivered the blow, and he has treated me with some contempt too. I’ve already started looking for a different job but I’m afraid I might be stuck here, reporting to horrible people.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      You’re not stuck. Keep reading here to help the positive thoughts to keep flowing. Keep chanting ,”I will get out of here, I will get out of here.”

  158. Lactation Ally*

    Help please.
    Lactation Room advocacy.
    I work at state public institution.
    We have pregnant and nursing mothers on staff as well as visitors who wish to pump/nurse.
    We are having a renovation.
    The staff has identified a space that can be transformed into a lactation room.
    The administration and directors of the renovation say there is no money to retrofit/renovate the small room for this purpose. There is already a sink in the room but it is not usable at this time.
    We do not have offices with doors- think glass walls.
    The Teapot University claims to honor gender equality and diversity.
    The staff wants this to happen. We need a couch, a sink, and a fridge.
    So…Please help with arguments to why this is a necessity. Bullet points please.
    If we had to raise the funds, approximate cost in a midsize, midwestern city.

    PS. We all are aware that we are in a privileged situation with regards to our work, engagement, and supervisors. I do not want to be adversarial/guns ablazing. I want to craft a well reasoned one page persuasive argument. Get a lawyer/go to hr would not be helpful here.

    1. fposte*

      I would band together with interested folks to supply the fridge and the couch and then make it a “meet us halfway” argument for getting the sink fixed.

      In the meantime, where are people pumping? I know you don’t want to make this a legal issue, but are they providing no legally required space at all, or are you just wanting more of a dedicated space than they currently offer?

    2. Nan*

      from my understanding, federal law says there has to be a place, that is not the bathroom. I don’t think it requires a sink and fridge, though.

      Maybe start there, and explain how once the milk is expressed (gathered? collected?) it has to be kept cold, like any other food product, so some sort of refrigeration is needed, and keeping in in the lunch room fridge may weird people out (not me, but some people), someone may steal it for coffee creamer or milk (lunch thieves everywhere!), or is unsanitary (office fridges are nasty).

      http://www.usbreastfeeding.org/workplace-law

      1. Lactation Advocate*

        So went down to the room at the end of my day. It IS nasty and it is also the storage room for old technology, reel to reel audio, film projectors etc. Ran into the building manager who said there is no other place for the old technology. Now you and I and every one in the building knows that isn’t true. Looking at the space- we can retrofit to make it a welcoming place. The sink seems to have been used to wash something foul and acidic/corrosive. The ceiling needs repair and the the room needs paint. Other than that I am sure that I can raise funds for a rug, a couch, a small fridge if the Teapot U can cough up the funds for the plumbing/sink issues and a paint job.

        1. fposte*

          I think that’s a proposal worth making, and if you know of another place for the old technology, propose its removal to that place. Since it sounds like they’ve been pretty clear on their limited decor budget, I wouldn’t ask for the “making it nice” stuff beyond that with the ceiling and the rug–focus on your must-have (sink) and biggest nice to have (paint). It wouldn’t hurt to have stats about percentages of female employees of childbearing age and overall stats about benefits of making things easier for nursing mothers.

    3. MegaMoose, Esq*

      I’ll leave a couple of links you should check out: they’ll get stuck in the filter but should show up shortly.

    4. E*

      Can you provide ways they could set up the room on a budget? Covering the glass walls somehow on the cheap, adding chairs that may already be around the office, a small table not being used. The room doesn’t have to be perfect from the start, but just provide the bare necessities for moms.

    5. Sualah*

      The biggest hurdle is getting the mother’s room put in place. So don’t let perfect be the enemy of good. If you can get the room designated as the mother’s room, you can petition/earmark/raise funds. So try and do this as cheaply as possible.

      Make sure there is a place to sit, an electric outlet, covered walls/windows, and an “occupied” sign. Those are the bare minimums. Everything else can be added later. And aside from the outlet, none of those things have to cost your institution much at all. (Hopefully the room already has an outlet, but I’m just saying. Curtains and a chair would not be expensive.)

      Like, the sink? It would be super convenient to have a sink in there. But any pump parts can be washed/rinsed out in a public sink (like in a kitchen area) and just make sure there’s hand sanitizer in the room. A fridge? If there is any fridge on site, mothers can store their milk there, or bring in insulated carrying cases if they are not comfortable with that. A couch? Any chair will do, really.

      Good luck!

  159. AlaskaKT*

    So I’ve been writing a blog for nearly a year now, half for fun and half for keeping my family/friends apprised of my families adventuring. I recently had a friend ask me to create a shirt so he could support me and advertise my blog. Which means I needed a logo! I know nothing about photoshop or logo making so I used a picture I’d taken and several photo editing phone apps, then cleaned up the final product in MS Paint. Then I had a friend edit and save it in the correct size and create an inverted file for me. I am so happy with the way it turned out! I wanted to share last week but I did this all on Saturday and since I just got a business license *squeals* that makes it work stuff!

    Also, I’ve sold 10 shirts in the last week, so that just makes it that much more exciting!

    2. zora*

      omg this was all over my IG today, I was laughing at my desk SO HARD.

      I love when the woman (mom? nanny?) is throwing herself across the floor to try to get the kids out, it was AMAZINGGGGGG

  161. Jbean*

    Background: Self assessments on a 1-5 scale and providing a narrative if you choose anything but a “3” or “4.” A “3” means you’re doing your job well. A “4” means you’re going above and beyond. A “5” means you’re substantially going above and beyond and doing so consistently.

    I had one project that received public praise from the agency director. It’s a big deal. But I feel that what I accomplished just scratched the surface of my capabilities, so if I were honest, I would choose “3” because it wasn’t that big of a heavy lift – for me. For expectations of the position, I think it’s more of a “5” particularly when context is added in: major disorganization on the part of the key person, no framework or strategic thinking, fed unreliable information from key person, took over key persons job and identified ways that she could contribute, had coworker aggressively try and take over my duties initially and had to be told multiple times to stop – and since had refused to contribute at all, conceptualized and implemented new direction in the 4th quarter, etc.

    So, my question: do I include this context, more well-written, of course? And my other question: do I pick my number based on position expectations or my expectations of what I can produce?

    Sorry for typos – I’m using my iPhone because the site isn’t loading this question on my computers browser.

    1. PollyQ*

      Position expectations, definitely. The fact that it perhaps wasn’t that hard for you doesn’t take away from your achievements.

  162. FinallyGotANewJob*

    I wish I had known about this (fantastic!) site before I started this job a year ago. I had worked long-term at one company, so when it came time to talk salary I didn’t know enough to negotiate. I know, I know, how could I not know? Now I am locked in to the scale. However, I love my job so it’s worth it. :)

    1. Whats In A Name*

      Well if you’re going to get stuck you might as well be stuck in a place you love!

  163. Butch Cassidy*

    So I’m thinking about beginning to stretch my ears. I’ve done a lot of research into how to do it safely and gently, maximizing the chance that if needed I could let the lobes shrink back up. I’m not even interested in stretching them very large, probably just to the point where they can still shrink back. I live in a part of the country where tattoos and piercings are normal, my current company (where I plan to stay for a while) is very liberal on personal appearance, and my long-term career goals are outside of the corporate world altogether. All of that said, I still have a lot of people pushing back on stretching my ears because they’re worried about professionalism or future job prospects.*

    Am I being unwise? Is this truly a huge risk for my career?

    *What I think is particularly funny is that these folks recommend I get a tattoo that I’ve wanted instead, even though tattoos are vastly more expensive and are much more difficult and painful to remove

    1. Fawnly*

      Hi! Former ear stretcher here. I think the largest I went was 4 gauge and they closed right up after removing them. I wore them for 3 years in the private sector and noone batted an eye. I think as long as they aren’t 1-2″ or where you can see through them you won’t have much of a problem. Get some fashionable (or neutral) plugs.

      And good on you for doing the necessary research! I went from 16ga to 6ga in one session armed with an ice cube and gritted teeth. It was very painful and I’m surprised I didn’t have a blowout or an infection. H2Ocean is a miracle.

      2. Butch Cassidy*

        While I’m here: what resources did you use to guide your aftercare? Like did you use H2Ocean once a day, and for how long post-stretch?

        1. Fawnly*

          Hi :)

          I was bad and really didn’t use any resources. I was 19 and exploring the internet for info (which wasn’t always good or accurate). I used H2Ocean twice a day or after doing an activity that made me sweaty or otherwise icky. I sprayed on H2Ocean and dabbed the drips but didn’t touch the jewelry or ear.

    2. AlaskaKT*

      Quite a few companies I’ve worked at had a “post earring no larger than a dime” in their appearance guides, and small gauges fall into that catagory. That said, my husband has his ears gauged at a 4, and he left them out for a few weeks (broke one and didn’t have a spare set handy) after having them gauged less than a year and they didn’t start closing. According to my piercer some people’s ears just don’t heal up after gauging, no matter the size. Mine on the other hand, if I leave my size 4 gauges out for a day they start closing! Everyone is different, so just keep that in mind!

    3. sometimeswhy*

      I have small (4mm) gauges and wear SS plugs with threaded/screw-on backs and artwork on the front to work and only a handful of people have noticed despite the fact that I wear my hair up and you can see the backs pretty clearly.

      One person thought they were clip-on but couldn’t figure out how the clip worked. One thought they were magnetic and that my ears weren’t pierced at all and wasn’t that clever. Even the folks whose paradigms are tuned to noticing them have been a little surprised when they realized I’ve been here for years and they never noticed that my ears are gauged. (Or that I have pretty extensive ink.)

      And for reference: I’m in management in a pretty liberal area but in an industry with conservative appearance norms.

  164. OlympiasEpiriot*

    Our e-mail (and FTP and internet) was down for 24 hours.

    I hand-delivered a project yesterday on a flash drive to a client.

    Fun times.

  165. Lissa*

    Just wondering, is it weird or TMI to tell people what my upcoming minor surgery is for? I have seen this type of thing mentioned before, but always along the lines of “you’re not obligated to” but here’s the thing — I actually really don’t mind people knowing, and feel like it will give people a good picture of what I can/can’t do. But I don’t want to gross/weird people out. I’m contract, and some of the people I communicate with I only email, never see in person, if that makes a difference. Should I just always stick to “minor surgery” or is it OK to say what it is? I’m missing a couple of days of work, then working remotely for another week or so depending on how I’m feeling. I have coordinators and several clients who’ll need to be appraised of the situation because they need to do things a bit different for when I’m remote.

    1. Jules the First*

      Stick with “minor surgery”. You can always offer more detail if they seem to want it.

    2. LAI*

      Agreed with Jules the First. I am personally uncomfortable knowing other people’s medical issues when we only have a work relationship and aren’t actually friends. If you are closer with some people and they seem interested, you can disclose more then.

    4. Colette*

      I think it depends on your office as well as the surgery. Something mechanical (e.g. wrist surgery) will be more acceptable than something digestive or reproductive.

      But if you mention it, keep it really high level and don’t get into details. “I’m having my gallbladder removed” is ok; sharing the details of why is not.

  166. Circus Maximus*

    I hope someone is still reading this thread because something just came up that I’d like feedback on:

    I work for a company based in the US which also has a sizeable contingent in another country where English is not their first language. Oftentimes I’ll see emails from them that are, shall we say, difficult to parse. I find myself struggling to figure out exactly what they were trying to say. There’s a little voice in the back of my head screaming “Geez, you guys, can’t you learn English and write in complete sentences?!”, but the rest of me knows full well that this is exactly the wrong way to go about this. Any input as to a useful, professional way to get them to up their communications game, though?

    1. SophieChotek*

      Are these difficult emails leading to miscommunications or errors in work/projects/output/whatever? Or does it just take longer to work through them because of the less-than-stellar syntax and grammar? If it’s actually affecting your work, or you have to go through numerous rounds of exchanges to clarify something because of the language barrier, then maybe it could be something to bring up to a manager. But if it just takes longer to read and decipher…but the actual work is accomplished…I don’t know…otherwise, it seems like when your company hired or decided to have another branch in another country, their English skills were considered acceptable for the work needed to be done?

    2. Jules the First*

      If I were you, I’d start by re-framing so that you feel appreciative that they’ll write to you in English instead of writing all their emails in Vulcan or sending all their emails via Wakeen because he also speaks Vulcan. It’s **hard** to work all day in a second language and it’s even harder to switch back and forth between languages.

      Your next step is to go back to them and say something like “I’m sorry; I’m still unclear – did you mean I should put the Kraken lids on the Valyrian teapots for our new line?” You could also say something like “can I do anything to make this easier?” They know their English isn’t great, but the only way to get better is to practice – if it really becomes a substantial issue in your workflow, you could talk to your manager and raise the language barrier as an issue when dealing with the Vulcan team and try to get them some extra training, but as long as it’s just irritating I think patience is your best option. It might also help to try and simplify your emails to them – a good way to see what it feels like is to drop your email into Google Translate, convert it into, say, Vulcan, then take the Vulcan output and run it back through the translator into English.

      I’ve been on both sides of this one (native speaker and not) and gentle honesty really is the best course of action.

    3. Anono-me*

      Have you considered trying to learn the other language? Even if you never become fluent enough to use it for work correspondence, a better understanding of your coworkers’ first language could make it easier for you to understand how they are using English.

      Also, a good faith effort on your part could result in your coworkers responding correspondingly.

  167. Michaela*

    I swear it’s as though the higher-ups want my department to have terrible morale.

    We lost our department’s director, who was excellent, for health reasons, after a months-long period of FMLA and half-time availability. Fergus, who’s on roughly the same level in the hierarchy, stepped in as acting director for a while; this did not go particularly well, because he doesn’t understand our work and is a micromanager, and we, uh, respond poorly to that. Fergus stepped aside for Wakeen, lower on the totem pole but slightly more clued-in about our work, but for whom being a departmental-level director is a stretch. Wakeen is clearly gunning for the permanent position; Fergus is still hanging around being a control freak, and we’re getting some very unsubtle messages that they want to change our department’s culture to have a lot more process and oversight and “enterprise thinking.”

    Basically everyone I work with is furious; we essentially haven’t had a director in a year, we’re three people understaffed (and are struggling to get a good candidate pool), and we are collectively pretty sure Fergus thinks we’re all layabouts and he’s pressuring Wakeen to crack down on our level of independence. I’m so sick of being told, condescendingly, that X new policy isn’t about what we’ve actually done or not done, it’s just “starting a conversation.” I really like my coworkers and I really like my work (my clients are, you know, clients), but not being treated like a grownup is making me snarly on a regular basis.

  168. Dizzy Steinway*

    Does anyone have tips for diplomatically shutting down Vivian, a staff member from another branch who may try to reopen a conversation I don’t want to get back into?

    So I work at head office. A few months ago Vivian emailed our team inbox and asked why we don’t include coconut teapots in our teapot listings. She explained her very strong feelings about how we should include them. I wrote back saying that coconut teapots are officially out of remit for our organisation (we are a non-profit with a set remit and strategy) and linking her to the very clear page on our website explaining our policy on coconut teapots and why they’re out of remit.

    Vivian writes back disagreeing with the reasons I’ve given, attempting to prove her point by cutting and pasting in huge chunks of ‘information’ from Wikipedia. Boss tells me not to engage with her arguments and to just reiterate that we have a stated position. I do.

    She replies saying the same things. I don’t reply as I’ve said all there is to say. She then writes again, saying she hasn’t heard from me and we need to talk about how I’ll be making sure we add coconut teapots to our listings. I reply saying I’m unable to discuss this further (because I can’t change the five-year strategy of an entire national organisation just because she says so). She desists, finally.

    We have a number of local teapot offices in different locations. We’d been talking about visiting one of them to run a focus group, which I need and want to be part of. It was confirmed earlier this week that we’ll be going to the south west office.

    Today I was on Facebook and noticed that Elle, a friend I’ve known online for years but rarely see, is friends with Vivian, and that Vivian is based at the south west office. I blocked her on Facebook as I just feel uncomfortable and boundary-trampled when I think of her, but I’m not sure what to do or say if she’s there and she tries to talk to me. I don’t want to miss going, so I’d appreciate ideas on polite ways of shutting her down if she starts trying to talk to me about coconut teapots again.

      1. Dizzy Steinway*

        This is the tricky part: I don’t know. And even if she’s not we are also going to meet the staff there and if she’s working I may well see her. I’m going to proceed on the assumption that I’ll probably cross paths with her. I can’t work out if I’m reasonably irritated by her or being irrational but she gives me a feeling captain awkward probably has a name for.

    2. JMegan*

      I would just refer her back to your boss. She specifically told you not to engage with Vivian’s arguments, so that means you don’t need to engage. From now on, your response can be “I discussed it with Jane, and she said no, so you’ll have to talk to her if you want more information.” Repeat as often as necessary. Good luck!

      1. Dizzy Steinway*

        Thanks! I just don’t get why she thought nagging me would enable me to change our organisational strategy.

    3. tigerStripes*

      Sometimes in this type of case, I just say that I don’t have the power to make that decision.

  169. Fawnly*

    I share an office with a 40-ish year old man who was hired in November to do the same work I do. I work in IT so our knowledge translates pretty well between jobs with the exception of company policies and procedures. 4 months later he’s still asking for help with basic IT knowledge. Boss thinks he’s great and chums it up with him and hangs on every word. He’s loud, gross, talkative, obnoxious and I can’t stand him.

    This guy has an obsession with sex especially concerning young women. He recently told me that he was remoting into a PC across the room at another desk to show a young intern “how cute one girl is in the upcoming olympics” (I think she’s 17 or 18) and pulled up bikini pictures and scrolled through them. He was accidentally logged into another user’s computer in another building. The user was out at the time but the PC faces other employees so there’s a high chance someone saw it happen. I’m unsure if I need to report this to my boss because I’ll be honest – I’m a woman in a man’s “world” and he’s already showed me with another complaint (bad, bad intern) that he doesn’t take my concerns as legitimate.

    I’ve started coming in early so I can get work done and putting on headphones when he shows up. He talks and talks and talks about the most mundane things (how he hates his ex-sister-in-law, politics, how great he is, etc) and I used to be super friendly and nod and smile and reply and now I just grunt or ignore him. I’m becoming a sour person and that’s just not who I am. Today he went into detail about the sexual assaults a famous Olympian carried out on young girls and women through his career.

    Do I need to turn this guy in to HR or is he just a creep and ignore him?

    1. ArtK*

      Go directly to HR. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200. He’s an harrassment lawsuit waiting to happen and the company needs to deal with that.

    4. MWKate*

      You’re uncomfortable and he is being really inappropriate, you don’t need to do anything but you absolutely have cause to. You don’t need to put up with feeling like this at work.

      I can understand being a woman in a man’s “world”, but any reasonable person is going to see that he is acting inappropriately. I mean – to go into a detailed discussion about sexual assault??

      If you are looking for assurance that you are not being overly sensitive – you aren’t. Go to HR and don’t feel even a little guilty about i.

    5. Rebecca*

      This guy sounds gross. But more importantly, he is still asking basic IT questions after 4 months, but he was hired as an IT person? Sounds like he is not only a blowhard but not as qualified as he purported when he was hired.

      1. Fawnly*

        Yes. Most of the time I end up juggling both his work and my own because of deadlines and we depend on him to complete his portion of work before I can complete mine.

    6. Daria Grace*

      Exposing people to unwanted sexual material or discussion counts as sexual harassment in many areas so HR would (or at least should) want to know about the legal minefield they’ve got on their hands. I’d also be VERY concerned that if he’s studied in detail how others commit assaults, he may be planning to commit some

  170. Need Progress*

    I don’t need advice, just venting. I had a meeting today to go over my progress on my project, which has not been great. Everyone was nice, but I definitely am not meeting the expected benchmarks right now. It doesn’t feel great, especially since I will be looking for a job soon and will need recommendations from them. I know I’m not doing that poorly, but I hate underachieving.

    2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Ugh, that’s the worst. I’m sorry. I just came through a phase where my main project wasn’t going well, and I went home in anxious tears every night. Empathy!

  171. Elizabeth West*

    Job hunt update.
    No replies to anything from out of state (makes sense, but still). I’ve even stopped getting replies to office jobs (that aren’t no). One recent rejection said I was overqualified. Well yeah, but I still need to eat, so. :P I suspect that’s the main problem with the rest–I’m too overqualified for one set of jobs and underqualified for the rest, even when I chose ones I felt would be a really good fit (that, and I’m not local).

    I upgraded my LinkedIn profile a little after my sister’s suggestions; tweaked my headline and my job stuff toward the kind of thing I’m looking for but with all admin jobs (excepting the last one, which still was, actually), there’s only so much I can do. I edited some website copy for her yesterday and as soon as it’s live, she will send me the link so I can add it to my samples. I’m torn about that, because I don’t want anyone to think I wrote the copy (I didn’t; only edited it) and I’m not interested in marketing work–I know nothing about it and have no experience in that sort of thing.

    There isn’t anything here or in St. Louis (the pay isn’t much better than here for admin stuff, which I really don’t want anymore, auuurrrghhhhh). I really need to leave but I can’t afford to go anywhere. I do not want to move halfway across the country for another admin job. I need some kind of a break. The universe seems severely constipated right now. I suspect when it does let go, it will be like a cosmic Kaopectate moment, LOL. Hopefully it will poop rainbows and glitter on me and not actual poop!

    I guess this weekend I’ll hit my revisions hard (of course, tomorrow I have six million things going on but it’s supposed to snow, so we’ll see) and comb through the Guide to Literary Agents 2017 for the next round of queries. Then I NEED to get going on the next project. And start revising Secret Book, if I’m ever going to do anything with it. Horrible mess, that one.

    1. MegaMoose, Esq*

      Holy junk, that overqualified rejection blows. Your third paragraph made me laugh out loud, though.

        1. LCL*

          The universe may be waiting for you to start a blog which will provide material and publicity for your books. Your writing is da bomb, show it to the world!

    2. Mimmy*

      You never know Elizabeth – the universe spewed rainbow and glitter on me last month when I was barely even paying attention. Don’t give up!!!

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Right on! Remember the poster of the frog and the pelican? “Never, ever give up.” I loved that poster.

    3. SophieChotek*

      I am sorry you are having problems finding a new place to land. (I feel the same way; overqualified and under qualified at the same time.)

      I’ll keep hoping for something to turn up. wish I could have a better suggestion.

  172. TheLazyB*

    Feeling odd. This week I’ve been thinking about jobs and ambition and ability and the fact I’ll be working for another 25-30 years.

    I left/dropped out/was kicked out of university after resitting my second year. Was offered a summer job at about the same time; ended up staying there for two years. Then moved to the city my new bf was in, basically just took the first job I was offered there. It was crap but I did an internal move which was better. Then I split up with that bf and moved cities again. I never chose to do secretarial/admin jobs but I pigeon-holed myself into them; they’re usually easy enough to find.

    For for years after my son was born I worked part time and it was great to have a job I could do well in my sleep where I was highly thought of. Then I took redundancy and fell into evaluation work, which I really enjoy and am apparently doing well at.

    But I’m kind stuck thinking… well where do I go from here? I’m 40, and I haven’t had a decent pay rise for years (bloody government pay cap, I’ve been held to 1% for the last 8 years and took a slight drop in salary for this job; I’m still not back to where I was in 2015). Taking inflation into account we’re doing worse; DH’s salary is less than mine but also staying pretty much static. I’m below the UK median wage.

    So… Is this ok? Will I ever be able to get a promotion? Will I ever be able to get a decent salary? Is it ok if I decide to stay at the level I’m at, at least while 5 year old is small?

    I applied twice for an internal mentorship scheme but both times was told excellent application but there just went enough spaces.

    I feel like I’m being left behind. My colleague that started at the same time as me got internally promoted a year ago and has an interview next week for the grade above. Her replacement who only started in august has told me he’s already looking (he was an internal hire). I’ve seen a couple of jobs recently but I’ve also been dealing with some challenging personal circumstances (family deaths, depression and mum had a heart attack) and it’s not the best time to be job searching (especially as I’ve had a fair amount of sick leave recently).

    So. Yeah. I don’t know what I’m asking really. Has anyone any words of wisdom???

    1. Caledonia*

      Well, you can always do some courses or looking into doing part time study again, if you want. Someone I know does mentoring for a teenage from a deprived area of her city, a friend of mine does befriending on a monthly basis on similar lines. Are there any courses you can do at work – different depts you can shadow, people you could network with perhaps or more improving your skillset e.g. management training or even IT based ones?

    2. Elstra*

      It’s okay if this isn’t ideal but IS what works for you–so yes, totally ok if you decide stay at your current level for a bit. Feeling left behind is real, but if turning up the ambition doesn’t fit into your overall life right now (family circumstances are also real and important!), do not to beat yourself up over it. Maybe even let yourself off the hook re: job hunting until a specified date in the future, and re-evaluate at that moment; it might feel more feasible when other things have calmed down a bit.

    3. Colette*

      Life isn’t a race, and it’s totally valid to stay where you are professionally while you deal with life. Be kind to yourself.

      Do you want a different job (as opposed to more money)? Or do you feel like you should want a different job?

      Can you take on new projects/responsibilities in your current job that might open up new job options?

      And admin jobs keep the world running, so don’t sell yourself short.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Do you have the bandwidth right now to think about changing direction?

      What are you willing to do right now that would be a step toward a new direction?

      Sometimes jobs serve us for the period in life we are facing. I had Dreadful Job during a time in my life where there were lots of changes and they came up fast. As much as I had issues with the job, I could also see that there were many days where I was grateful I could do the job in my sleep. This was because the only time I had to sleep was while I was at work! (Joking- I also described it as “work is more relaxing than my personal life.”)
      I was grateful for the continuity of employment during a roller coaster time in life. I can see how people might use their jobs to keep themselves pulled together when life gets rough.
      I also think that I learned a lot at that job. Stuff that I never would have learned anywhere else.
      My suggestion here is to look a tad deeper and see if you can find these hidden purposes.

      I also know that if we don’t plan where we are going we are apt to end up anywhere. This may or may not be a good thing.

      You know what has kind of helped me in an unexpected way is talking with friends whose opinions I really respect. Look around for these types of people, these are sincere people who are thinkers. The people I am talking about are folks who surprise me with what they think of to say. They might come back to you in three months with an idea.

      I will tell you, these people have been such a huge comfort to me. I cannot describe. All you need is a couple of these types of friends, you don’t need a ton of them.

      And you pay them back by providing thoughtful responses to things that are giving them difficulty.

  173. JMegan*

    Ugh, mental health in the workplace. I feel like I would have no trouble saying to my boss “I’m going to be less productive than usual this week because my arthritis (or whatever physical ailment) is acting up.” But I don’t think I could say the same because my depression is “acting up,” because then I would look like a big slacker. Or get a response something like “well, if you know it’s depression, why don’t you do something about it?” Obviously if the problem were that easy to solve, I would have solved it already, but clearly it’s not that easy. Sick days are not an option for me right now, so I’m just sitting here plugging away the best I can.

    At the same time, the checkmarks on my to-do list for the week tell me that I have actually been doing not too badly, productivity-wise. But there’s also anxiety, telling me it’s not good *enough*! Stupid brain, getting in the way of my work like this.

      1. JMegan*

        Ha, I think about it all the time! ;) But with a full time job outside the home, and mostly-solo parenting of two little kids, thinking about it is pretty much all I can do most days. Soon, though…

    2. Parenthetically*

      “I have an illness that’s gotten acute. Nothing to worry about — I’m working on a treatment plan now, but I just wanted to let you know that I may be a little less productive than usual this week and I appreciate your understanding.”

      *expressions of concern, you don’t seem sick, etc. etc.*

      “Yeah, it’s one of those invisible illnesses unfortunately, and the details are pretty boring, but it’s making certain parts of work pretty challenging.”

      1. JMegan*

        It sounds so easy when you say it! Actually I think my manager would be pretty understanding, but she’s away for a couple of weeks, so my colleague is acting for her. So I don’t want to disclose anything to him that I don’t need to, plus I feel like saying something like this on Friday afternoon at 3:30 looks like I’m making excuses.

        Thank you, though. It probably is a lot easier to say than I think it is!

        1. Parenthetically*

          I realized after I hit submit that it sounded super flippant and I apologize — my excuse is I was distracted by end-of-day stuff, but I should have prefaced it with, “This is hard, it sucks, and then ALSO your brain is fighting against you and making it seem bigger than it even is (and it’s already big to start with),” and followed it up with, “Very best of luck to you with your self-care, your work-life balance, and everything else.”

          1. JMegan*

            No need to apologize, you did didn’t sound flippant at all! I actually appreciate the outside perspective, reminding me that my brain is my own worst enemy sometimes. :)

      2. Parenthetically*

        Also, sorry about this. I’ve dealt with some frustrating seasons with my depression/anxiety and it is SO HARD to know how to discuss stuff like this with your boss.

    3. Jessesgirl72*

      I think you need to acknowledge to yourself that part of the “look like a big slacker” thing is partly the disease talking, just like the “not doing good enough” part.

      1. Temperance*

        Thank you for saying this. I feel like I’m getting nothing done, and that’s fueling an anxiety/shame spiral which is limiting how much I get done. I need to work on this.

      2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        One of my outstanding colleagues once said something about this sort of feeling that has stuck with me: “You know, there were times this past month when all I got done in a day was sending three emails. And I went home and was kicking myself about how terrible an employee I was, how I was going to lose my job — and deserved to! — and how much I sucked in general. And then I remembered: No, that’s just capitalism telling me that I’m doing a bad job. I’m just a person, doing hard work, and I’m not exactly the same every day I come in.”

        Yes, yes, yes. Capitalism tells us that we have to be perfect worker automatons. But that’s not what we are. We do our best (I hope!), we struggle, we get better, sometimes we don’t do well, and life goes on and work gets done anyway. Remembering that has been a balm to my soul. Ahhhh.

    4. Anon Sad Cat*

      I didn’t see your post before submitting my own further down! But we are clearly on the same wavelength right now. Sending you good vibes!

    5. LQ*

      I’ve had a weird smashup of mental health (which has been suffering, I’ve had a lot of panic attacks recently, though only one at work) and physical health. I got sick. Like ugh I can’t do anything for several days sick and finally came back in and I’m not 100% yet and I feel it. Oh man do I feel it. Weirdly I’ve had no panic attacks this week, and while my productivity is in the bucket, below the bucket, it took a drill and is aiming toward the center of the earth bad…It did help me realize that my mental health is making my work suffer a little, but that anxiety is really just so loud I can’t hear that I’ve been doing fine and no one can tell about the other stuff.

      I’m not sure I’m making any sense but anxiety sucks. So very much. So very very much. Listen to your checklist and focus on that if you want. Anxiety is a lying liar who lies, do not listen to it! It lies. It’s a great liar. But it is never ever honest.

      Good luck.

  174. anonycat*

    Happy proud HR lady here. We’re in manufacturing, a few hundred employees, and I am THE HR person. I’ve been here less than 6 months and I LOVE my job! Even better is a feel good: Earlier this week one of our employees (they were at their workstations) started choking, tried to get out the foreign object, couldn’t…and her neighboring co-worker knew the Heimlich and ……..saved her life! I wanted to cry with pride. I don’t know what else to say but I went and shook that young man’s hand and gave the lady a hug…how damn unprofessional and I don’t even care. I love my team and the thought of losing any of them breaks my heart.

    1. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      That is wonderful, and you are great for caring about your team! I did this to my husband a few months ago, he was choking on a cracker. It came out in a pop, but I was a mess for about an hour afterwards seeing someone I loved not being able to breathe. It would be great if you took this experience and maybe asked a local emergency provider to come and give a quick seminar or lunch & learn on the Heimlich?

      1. nonegiven*

        My DH’s job has a “safety meeting” once a month. They learn stuff like that, CPR with a dummy and other things specific to their jobs.

  175. KR*

    I was supposed to start a job Monday but found out my background check got delayed for a few weeks so I can’t start work on time. I’m super bummed but trying to think of it as an extended vacation.

      1. charlatan*

        Interesting. I haven’t looked through everything yet, but the writing guide alone is giving me good ideas. We have a number of different people writing minutes, all using different styles, and it never occurred to me to institute a guideline like this. Thanks.

    2. Ann O.*

      That link is great.

      I also recommend reading about Info Mapping (or looking up articles by JoAnn Hackos). The key takeaways are: consistency in subject link keywords, divide emails into short sections, and use clear, bold labels with white space to faciliate skimming.

      1. charlatan*

        We’ve just started using the guidelines recommended in that article and it’s a little weird getting used to it, particularly since not everyone is doing it yet, but it seems like it’ll be helpful.

        Thanks for the info on Haskos and info mapping.

  177. Damn it, Hardison!*

    I’m this close to writing to Alison about this, but I’ll give the open thread a shot first. My new-ish coworker is driving me crazy. She is an “external processor” – she has to talk through everything. She cannot have a thought or execute it without discussing, generally with me, her only other direct teammate. She is having difficulty on her one project and talk about it with me endlessly (she’s doing it right now). She just has to talk it all out, ad nauseum. She not usually asking for my opinion (she tends to end sentences with “you think I’m right, right?”) and when she does ask I give her an answer she either ignores it or just keeps asking as if my answer will change if she gives it 5 minutes. Meanwhile, I’m up to my eyeballs in projects and operational work, some of which she’s supposed to do as well, but she’s too busy with her one project (a project I’m also on). I am wasting 1-2 hours a day in unproductive conversation/listening.

    Thanks for letting me vent, now my questions: 1) how do a set better boundaries with her; 2) how do control my serious irritation with her apparent working style? I just need to get stuff done!

    1. Allypopx*

      To answer your question, which I worry is getting derailed by the typo – Are headphones an option? Can you say “I really need to concentrate right now so I’m putting headphones in” and then ignore her. Or be more direct “I find it really time consuming when we need to talk through every point extensively. Can you condense your questions into an email that I can look at when I have a moment?” or “I’d love to listen, and I don’t want to be rude, but I have a lot of work to do. Can we put a three minute cap on this conversation?” and then enforce that. Where your headphones, tell her when her three minutes is up, whatever. But make clear, measurable limits and give yourself permission to enforce them.

      1. Damn it, Hardison!*

        Oh, if headphones would solve the problem! I forgot to mention that she doesn’t read social cues even blatant ones. She sits right behind me so if I don’t listen/answer, she’ll roll her chair over and start talking to me, even with headphones on. I will leave my headphones in and visibly continue doing whatever I was doing but it doesn’t seem to make a difference. She’s also pretty sensitive – if I don’t engage she asks if I’m mad at her. Since we’re the only 2 members of our team, getting along is important.

        I know I have to be blunt with her but I don’t want to make her feel bad – she’s having a tough time adjusting to our workplace culture and frankly flailing a little.

        1. Ultraviolet*

          It’s kind of hard, but I think you do just have to say, “Jane, in addition to [project you both work on], I have X other things I need to do, and I can’t keep up a continuous dialogue. I need you to…” and then mention whatever would be helpful, like saving up her questions for once or twice a day, or not ask for confirmation on everything, or try something herself first…whatever seems appropriate.

          For the headphones, if she comes over and starts talking while you’re wearing them, I suggest lifting them off your ears just slightly and saying, “Jane, I’m working right now. If it’s not an emergency, send an email and we’ll talk later.” And then put them back on and get back to work.

          About not making her feel bad, remember that being very direct but polite about what you need from her is kinder than waiting until you accidentally snap and say it in a mean (and probably less precise) way.

        2. Dizzy Steinway*

          “I don’t want her to feel bad”

          This is kind and human but is going to seriously get in the way of setting boundaries. You can’t protect her from potentially feeling bad. What you can do is drtbbljbdsries

        3. Dizzy Steinway*

          “I don’t want her to feel bad”

          This is kind and human but is going to seriously get in the way of setting boundaries. You can’t protect her from potentially feeling bad. What you can do is set boundaries firmly but kindly. That is where your responsibility to her feelings starts and ends.

          I know someone like this and the thought of working in an office with her is… aggravating.

    2. Phoebe*

      I think I’d just be direct with her. The next time she starts, just tell her, you’re sorry, but you really need to focus on your own work and that you really can’t spare the time. Hopefully, after being rebuffed a few times she’ll get the message.

    3. Parenthetically*

      Verbally processes + doesn’t read social cues = you have got to be direct. You don’t have to be a jerk, you can be warm and gracious, but you have got to be direct, both in the moment and possibly in a larger conversation. You can make it a mantra if you want, to say to yourself warm directness isn’t rude until you believe it. I have a coworker like this and the ONLY thing that works is getting out a pile of grading and saying, “Well, I’ve got to get to work on this. Have a good afternoon!”

      In the moment, preemptively: “Hey Jane, I can give you exactly two minutes to process about this but then I have to get back to work. Starting now.” *yammers, goes on for more that two minutes* “I have to stop you there. I need to get back to work.” (And then stand and usher her away from your desk, with a smile, if she doesn’t leave.)

      As a larger conversation: “Jane, I’ve noticed there’s a lot on your mind with this project. I find that I’m losing my workflow a little bit lately, so it would be a big help to me if you want feedback about something specific to start sending me your questions via email so I can get to them when I have a minute. Can you do that please?”

      As follow-up to that conversation: “Oops, yeah, this is one of those times I can’t chat. I’ll have time at some point later today to look over an email if you want to put your concerns there. Back to work for us!” (Smile, stand, gesture away, etc.)

      1. zora*

        These are all good scripts, use them! I say this all the time, but practice them all in the mirror for a couple of days, it will get easier to use them in the moment.

        Also, once you have established that you are stopping the conversation to work a few times, you can abbreviate it. My office mates like to talk to each other, but we also have work that needs concentration. So, we’ve established shorthand like “Ok, I’m going deep” before putting on headphones, or “I’m putting on my headphones, have to work.” Just get in the habit, and you can say that every time she starts rambling.

  178. Elstra*

    I need some advice! I’m currently in a senior analyst role and am rewriting my job description with the support of my boss. I am okay with my job title and description, but my compensation is well below market rate (and below non-senior position salaries) and I am considered a high performer, so my boss decided to go through the process as a full re-write.

    I am struggling to figure out what the next rung of the ladder would be.

    1. Elstra*

      Oops–something went wacky and I submitted.

      I am struggling to figure out what the next rung of the ladder would be. “Lead, [thing I am in charge of]” or “Manager, [thing I am in charge of]” or something else?

      To complicate matters slightly, I interviewed for another job in the organization and my chances are good, but the hiring process there has been stalled. I would almost certainly still take it if it is offered to me, but I’m struggling with how to handle this raise/promotion scenario knowing I might be leaving. At the same time, I don’t want to go another year being unfairly paid, so I’m moving forward as though I hadn’t interviewed.

  179. Anon Sad Cat*

    I have a question for people who struggle with anxiety/depression/various chronic pain issues. If you know you are going to start a new medication and it may interfere with your ability to function for a few weeks, do you let your supervisor know in advance? Do you wait and see if anything happens and if you do end up feeling off, let them know what’s going on? Do you tell them at all? I’ve got a really poor grasp on what information is helpful and what would be overshare or detrimental, and usually can’t tell until I’ve overshared and then feel really anxious about that. So any advice/scripts are welcome!

    I don’t really work with my supervisor that often because although I am technically in her department, my office and most of my work takes place in a different department. I have noticed my coworkers in this department are pretty open about any illness they are dealing with (so far, sinus issues and tooth extraction), so my instinct is to mention it to my adjacent coworkers if it comes up, but not draw attention to it if possible. I am usually very friendly and chatty with my coworkers, but now that the depression has really hit I’m using all my energy completing what I can and being as nice as possible and holing up in my office if I feel a crying jag coming on. I just don’t want to be the new employee who constantly has a problem. I had migraines every day my first week of work (that I pushed through), the third week I was out two days with an IBS flare-up, and now depression is in full swing and I just don’t want to fall short or be judged. People here have been really sympathetic to everything that has happened so far and are generally very kind. In addition, I’ve gotten really good feedback from my supervisor who has been impressed with how quickly I’m picking up the work and told me that I’m an overachiever (offhandedly, in a complimentary way).

    How do you deal?

    1. JMegan*

      Ha, clearly we are in the same boat! As you can see from my replies above, I haven’t disclosed anything at work. Except for the one day when I discovered that you can NOT mix antidepressants and sinus meds, and they made me so loopy that I had to go home for the day! And even then, I didn’t say anything about the depression/ anxiety, just that I had started a new medication and I had taken sinus medication on top of it that morning and they weren’t reacting well.

      Other than that, I’m just sort of plugging away, but I’m lucky (?) that I’m only dealing with the one issue, and also that I’m reasonably well-established at this job. But it sounds like you have a lot of different things to consider here. I have no advice, but lots of sympathy!

      1. Anon Sad Cat*

        The “I’ve started a new medication, may be a little off at first,” was what I used at my last job and at first he seemed nice about it…but hewas also a passive-aggressive, verbally abusive nightmare boss so my mental state worsened considerably while I was there.

    2. MWKate*

      I’ve always erred on the side of not saying anything (mostly because I am not aware things are getting bad until I’m 2 months into all hell breaking loose) but I don’t always think it’s the best option. It really depends on your boss. With the stigma surrounding depression and anxiety it’s so hard to tell whether you are going to be dealing with someone who is sympathetic or just doesn’t get it. This happened to me last year, and it took awhile to crawl out of. I’m still trying to repair that performance dip as far as my reputation goes.

      If I had to do it again, I would go the ‘I’m not feeling well lately, am working with my doctor, hoping to get things improving soon’ kind of route. I don’t tend to realize I’m in a downward spiral until too late though – so good for you for recognizing and wanting to address this right away.

      You are definitely not alone, and I hope you start finding a good balance with your medication soon.

  180. a little happy*

    I just want to tell you all that I’m a little excited about using a very simple advice I’ve read about here so often that I was in the middle of following it before even realising. It is nothing more than writing a short mail to sum up what we discussed on the phone, including that I did not promise this thing could be done but that I would ask my boss and then she would reply back. It is so simple and it is something I never would have thought of before. Thank you, Allison!

  181. Hey Annony*

    When you’re contemplating screaming at all your coworkers to shut up about their weekend plans together and slamming their heads into their desks til they stop talking (when I’m the one person who is not part of the boss’s circle of favorites but I have to work closely with them every single day so I can’t get away from their incessant chit chat), it’s probably time for me to consider leaving even if my recent interviews haven’t brought up any offers yet.

  182. MissGirl*

    I had my first interview yesterday since starting my job hunt a few months ago. It went well, but I didn’t get a real idea of the culture. I can’t rely on Glassdoor because it’s a huge healthcare company so I would expect a lot of deviation between departments and locations. I asked about culture in the interview but they talked more on collaboration versus work/life balance and the nitty gritty.

    What questions or actions has anyone conducted to get a better idea of what a company or a position is like before accepting? They said they’ll bring their top choices in for one more interview so I’ll have a chance to talk more. My first job I accepted out of college I said accepted without investigation because I didn’t have a lot of options. Where I am in my career now means I can give more consideration to this process.

    1. Sabine the Very Mean*

      Why is the position available? How long was previous person in the position before leaving? Why did they leave? What is the biggest challenge management faces? What is the biggest challenge the average employee faces? How would you describe the culture here? What was your biggest hurdle when you first started here?

    2. Anon Sad Cat*

      Seconding everything Sabine said, and also ask why your interviewers enjoy working there and what qualities make the company a good fit for them. If they can answer in earnest that will be very telling. What strengths did the last employee have that made them successful in that role? Are there any areas of the role that they would like to see tweaked/improved?

    3. Colette*

      What does a typical day in the job look like? Is overtime typically planned, or does it usually happen at the last minute? How many hours does the typical team member work in a week?

      I wouldn’t necessarily phrase them like that, but some of those might flow naturally in the conversation.

    4. MissGirl*

      Thank you for your suggestions. They literally emailed me seconds after posting this question asking for a second interview. I’m so freaked out because I’m not sure if I want it or if this will be the best I get. So hard when it’s the first and I have nothing to weigh it against. I’m also completely changing industries and jobs after getting my master’s.

      The position itself is new so I would be the first one in it. The department is rapidly growing.

  183. Sabine the Very Mean*

    How would you feel about this strange professional quandary of mine?:

    I work closely with the woman who runs the chamber of commerce in our town. We rarely meet in-person and stick to emails, phone calls and texts. She recently decided she wanted a weekly phone call with me–scheduled to be the same time every week on a particular day. This time doesn’t really work for me as it is when all my buses are pulling out for the day (I’m in bus operations) but I’d usually try to accommodate her since she was so adamant this was the only time for her and she was swamped. I soon realized this was when she was making her weekly trip to the big city 3 hours away and this was convenient for her as she had nothing else (uh, besides driving) to do besides get some phone calls done.

    I find this a little discourteous. I don’t mind when discovering the person I’m talking to is in their car but to deliberately want to schedule the call only during her road trip? I find it rude since I actually stop what I’m doing to have the conversation. Am I off-base? I almost feel like telling her to call while I’m in the shower since I’m bored in there.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      I don’t have a problem with her saying “this is the time of day when I try to get phone calls done.” But I also don’t have a problem with you saying “this is an inconvenient time for me, so we’ll need to schedule it at a different time.”

      If she’s making a three hour drive, does that give her a three-hour window to call you? Couldn’t she do it at another point?

      (Honestly, if I were in your shoes, I’d tell her I’m not comfortable talking to her while she’s supposed to be concentrating on the road, and I’ll talk to her at a point when she’s not in the car. But that’s just me.)

      1. Not So NewReader*

        In my state the fines are steep for using a cell while driving.

        You can borrow my story if you like. My friend’s friend was driving and talking to my friend. The driver was not concentrating on the road. Suddenly, the driver said, “I have lost control of my car.” My friend heard the driver’s last words in life. The driver died instantly.

        Tell her if anything happened to her you would never, ever get over it.

        This approach is a slam dunk. She can’t really argue with this.

        As far as being miffed about her time slot she assigned you, I can’t tell you what to feel. But this is the world we have. We have shower heads that shut off because the cell phone is ringing. Not a hill to die on, just my opinion. But it does cause me to think is there something else going on here that is actually a problem and the cell phone annoyance is a crutch for not dealing with something larger?

  184. R.S.*

    I have been in my job for almost six months and it’s just not the right fit for me. I’m in a really small department, and although there is plenty of opportunity for mentoring and growth in soft skills (which is about 60% of my job), I am the only technical person on my team, and I’m still new to the technical part of this job. The technical part of my job is also the part I like better and where I ultimately want my career to go, although I took this job initially because of the mix of the two. There is a job opening in another department in my university that is exactly in line with my technical skills and career path. In order to apply for this, I need to talk to my supervisor first. Also, I recently found out that my boss is likely going to be getting a promotion, and some of their responsibilities are going to become mine – specifically the parts of our organization that I like doing the least. These are things that I have seen them do and thought to myself “thank god that’s not my job.” It’s going to be my job now.

    How do I approach this? I feel guilty for taking this job knowing it was going to be this mix, and then realizing quickly that it’s not the right job for me, but I definitely don’t want to burn any bridges since I’m hoping to stay at the university and I really do like my boss as a person.

    1. Anon Sad Cat*

      If you have a good relationship with your boss I think your best bet is to be polite and direct. You’re not going to mesh with every job you have, and there’s no way for you to know that until you have actually worked there. If your boss is supportive and courteous they will realize that and be grateful you spoke up before taking on a role that’s not a great fit. It’s kinda the same logistics as a breakup…they’ll probably be grateful that they have the opportunity to find someone who IS a good fit for that job, rather than have you staying on sympathetically. ;)

  185. still bummed*

    The day after I was rejected from a position after 3 rounds, the company Twitter tweeted about the exact opening…sigh!

  186. Contract woes*

    I was offered a job recently, which I was thrilled about. However, then they sent me the contract, and there were a couple of things in there that were unusual-to-sketchy, so I asked for more info about these things. Their reaction was pretty frosty. Now we’re in a weird stalemate where I’m not sure what is happening … They said they’d be in touch to arrange a time to talk, but I haven’t heard anything.
    Ugh. They seemed kind of pissed that id brought it up, and their reply was basically, “no one else has ever had a problem with this”. Yes, I’d prefer to have these clauses changed, but really I just wanted to be able to understand why the contract is written like that, and have a conversation about it, but they don’t seem receptive at all.
    The whole thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
    Has anyone been in a similar situation?

    1. Colette*

      I would do extremely poorly in a job where people got insulted when I asked why things were done that way. Is this still a job you want?

      If so, I think you can follow up next week reiterating that you’re interested and asking to meet. But I’d keep looking until you reach an agreement.

    2. Dizzy Steinway*

      Yes. It was for freelance work rather than a job, but there was a clause that meant they could not pay me. They gave me the “nobody else has had a problem” line. I figured it was because nobody had ever actually read the contract properly.

      I hate that line. It’s gaslighting. If it’s HR and you liked the other people you met I’d not be totally put off, but this is a giant red flag.

  187. Anonyby*

    Any suggestions for getting settled & coping when you don’t have a place to work that’s “yours” (be it desk, cubical, office, whatever)? Especially when it’s company norm to have one?

    For background context: I moved to this area (a set of three offices) back in January. Since then I’ve spent several days (one or two days at a time) at the main office covering for coworkers there (part of my job), and the desk that was assigned to me at small office A by my manager was reassigned to a desk fee-paying contractor by the former manager for the office and the current FT admin there (two different people). After a couple days of not having any desk of my own, I was sent to small office B where there’s space, but my manager did warn me that this wasn’t a permanent assignment. Add in that even though I have a laptop assigned to me, it’s more expected for me to leave it at whereever “my” desk is at the moment rather than carry it back and forth. (When I’m elsewhere, I’m expected to use a computer that’s already there.)

    And yeah, there’s lots of background drama going on that I’m trying to stay out of, and that my manager is purposefully trying to keep me out of.

    1. Daria Grace*

      Having nice stationary that you choose and well organised folders can help you feel a bit more in control of your environment

    2. Anonyby*

      Okay, talked to my manager about some things (not this specifically, but factors that influence it). It looks like next week will be rocky, but after that I should be at office B unless someone’s sick/on vacation. At least I can feel more settled over there.

      As for next week’s rockiness… drama-connected coworker put in her notice. So sometime next week (she put in for Friday as her last day, but manager hinted that she may be released earlier) I’ll have to go cover the spot a day or two, until the replacement (an internal hire) can take over.

  188. Liane*

    I talked about in another thread about yesterday’s interview. Here I want to laud the Good Friend, Shelly, who encouraged me to apply there, repeatedly. She’s been working there for a year or 2 but is currently on medical leave; just got the go-ahead this past week to go back with restrictions. Yay!
    She suffering from cancer and just finished chemo not long ago. It’s in all kinds of places–breast, some bones, others I can’t recall. Right now it’s “in a holding pattern,” Shelly says. I *think* she means remission. She’s confided to me she only wants to go back to work because of the health insurance (as I mentioned in other posts it’s a state job) and tuition discount for family members. The only way, she says, they will be able to afford college for the 2 youngest (high school sr and jr) kids.
    As soon as I got the call for the interview, I FB messaged Shelly. She then proceeded to give me tips for interviewing there, more about work culture–good and bad–and so on. And as I type this I am wiping tears off my face. Shelly is still really sick, she’s worried about her family and getting the youngest through school. And she still takes the time to prep me for an interview. Am so grateful.

  189. At wits end*

    It’s likely no one will see this because it’s the end of the day but Im on the side of the road from my drive home from work because I was crying and hyperventilating too hard to drive safely.

    I just can’t function at my job any more. I’ve been faking it really well for a few months but it always ends the week in a breakdown. My job is full of hateful people who don’t care to speak to me unless I’m doing something wrong but have tons of fun with two hour long lunches all in a group and talking loudly in their offices, swearing at each other and chatting about weekend plans where clients can hear them. I’m doing the work of four people now because they won’t hire for those who left which has some of my work slipping. So I get yelled even when no one else in the office is doing work. I ask my supervisor for help and he just brushes me off, tells me to do the best I can, but is part of the dogpiling when things go wrong.

    I’ve been searching for a few months but work has started to impact me so much that
    My friends and family have expressed real sorry for me. I might have to leave without anything new to jump into right away because I am having trouble functioning like a normal person like I did a year ago.

    I hate that my job has turned me into someone who second guesses himself at every turn. They’ve shaken my self confidence with their condensing ways and I am so angry with how I’m being treated that I didn’t think it was possible for me to hate someone so much. I’m wishing I’d never taken this job, even if it had meant sticking around my part time retail job a while longer. Yes, they’re making me miss retail.

    Just had to get this office my chest.’going to try to calm down now so I can safely drive home. Job searching tonight is out the window, I’m frazzled from this miserable week to focus. Good night all.

    1. Colette*

      That sounds awful.

      What would happen if you did went to your supervisor and said “I have tasks A, B, and C. I can only do two of them, so I’m going to concentrate on A and C, but B will have to wait” – and then did that? When someone complained, would your supervisor remember the conversation (or could you politely point it out)?

      What about if you noticed your coworkers going for a long lunch and just decided not to worry about it, since the only person you’re in charge of is you?

      They all sound awful, but maybe changing how you approach the situation will help you cope, even though they’ll still be awful.

      Alternatively, can you sit down and look at your finances and figure out how long you can afford to be out of work, and what expenses you can cut to afford to be off longer?

      1. At wits end*

        Supervisor won’t back me up on that. I’ve tried to push back, tried to point out that it’s not feasible for me to do all of this, and he just tells me to make it happen anyway.

        I made my peace with the culture of ‘not caring’ in my work a long time ago. But with recent changes, it has brought everything more in my face. I used to be able to ignore the terrible people, just keep my head down in my own office and get my work done. Now being short staffed, I have to work more closely with my awful coworkers and their inclinations to long breaks and random chit chat directly affect my already impossible workload.

        At the moment, the only thing keeping me there is an upcoming health procedure that I need covered by insurance. I’m going to hold out til then and then seriously consider my options.

        1. LCL*

          Whatever happens, once you get your health procedure done, don’t work for free.
          Starting Monday, if someone yells at you, tell them ‘I can’t talk to you when you are yelling’ and go back to work. Don’t stand there and argue with them. Its really tough to stand up to yellers, you are a lot better off telling them no and walking away. If they want you to stay there and be yelled at, ask them ‘do I yell at you when I am talking to you?’

          You can only concentrate on so much; use your energy to focus on doing your job and telling them not to yell at you. Forget about that they are slackers and snobs, it’s true but it won’t help you. As a last resort, when someone has moved me to fury and I must behave, I think to myself ‘someday you will be dead.”

          1. At wits end*

            I have been thinking ‘someday you’ll be dead’ at my coworkers but it’s usually followed by ‘can i get you there any faster, please?’ But I need to focus on improving my own health and well-being, not plotting the downfall of theirs, no matter how satisfying it would be.

    3. TheLazyB*

      I am so sorry you’re dealing with all this. Work should never make you cry or hyperventilate :(

    4. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      Oh I am so sorry. Sending positive vibes for a new job, you can do it. There are nice people in offices out there, don’t let this one get you down. Take some time this weekend to relax and refresh yourself, and then if you have any PTO coming to you, take a mental health day soon and do some more job searching. Hugs!

    5. SophieChotek*

      I’m sorry you’re in this place — it sounds toxic.

      Is it possible for you to go back to retail (enough to make ends meet? family could help?) …

      I am assuming your boss is part of the problem or not there or effective enough to shut it dow, but as Coleete wrote, can you approach the boss about 1 person for 4x the amount of work and demonstrate the issues?

      1. At wits end*

        Boss is part of the problem. He also does not speak to me unless something is going wrong. At my evaluation, he said he could tell I was doing a great job because nothing had been escalated to his level (the few issues I have had were all quickly fixed and didn’t need Boss to get involved). Of course he also told me I work to well with everyone here and fit in really great with the team so he obviously doesn’t pay any attention to me.

        But he is also part of the not doing work crowd and is also a big reason of why the missing placements haven’t been filled. He’s dragging his feet since the team is covering the workload with only half the manpower (again, because they’re shoving most of it onto me and forcing me to juggle everything) so why spend the money on more staff.

        Whenever I leave, to a new job or just to get out of here even if it mean retailing again and living with family (something I’d happily do at this point and thankfully something that is possible for me), they’re going to be in real trouble because there will be no one else to take on the work other than Supervisor and those who keep ducking out of their own work.

        1. SophieChotek*

          Ha definitely time to exit…
          Hope you decide on a course of action that is best for you. If boss is part of the problem…then unless there is someone over the problem-boss it sounds like you have to suffer through it or quit without something else lined up…which is a pretty tough place to be!

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Oh my. I am just seeing this.

      Your job has so many layers of toxic, I am not even going to try to sort it all. Let’s just call it a septic tank.

      First and foremost you need to protect your health. Do you think if you gave two weeks notice on Monday you could work the two weeks out?

      Next do you think you can come back next Friday and talk to us again?

      Please get some rest this weekend. Even if you do not sleep, you just sit/lay still that will help in small ways.

  190. Damn it, Hardison!*

    That sounds terrible. Please take extra good care of yourself this weekend. If you can quit without anything lined up, seriously consider doing it. Staying in an environment like that can obviously take toll mentally and physically and you need to do what’s best for you.

  191. The IT Manager*

    Colette has some reasonable suggestions. I just offer sympathy. I’m sorry you’re going through that. It sounds terrible and toxic and very much not your fault, but it is having such a negative effect on your morale and mental health. I’m sorry.

  192. Lucy Westenra*

    This is soooo going to be lost in the thread, but I only just got home after driving an hour each way to a prospective employer because they wanted me to apply in person. I was game; maybe they were going to interview me on the spot, so I wore nice clothes and put my hair up. Nope, they just made me drive thirty miles to fill out a piece of paper. They said they’d call some time next week. They’d better.
    Also, I reapplied to my old job and they still haven’t gotten back to me. The first time it took them like a day. It’s been over a week. Screw them.
    On the bright side, I love my new car. Thank you to everyone who gave me advice last weekend.

    2. Daria Grace*

      I’d be watching VERY closely for other red flags with this employer. That’s not normal behavior.

      1. Lucy Westenra*

        1. mine is not the typical white-collar industry, so it’s maybe a yellow flag. 2. there’s something wrong with their web site, so I get the feeling that this is not SOP. By all accounts it’s a great place to work; you get opportunities there that you wouldn’t at most other companies in the area.

  193. MariaB*

    I work in a call centre, and one of our queues closes at 6pm. However, if the client calls before 6pm, the call gets put in the queue, and our staff must answer all the calls in the queue before they can end their shift. The staff are only scheduled to work until 6pm, but they often have to stay 30+ minutes past their shift in order to answer all the calls. Part time staff get paid for the extra time, while full time staff get time in lieu. However, many staff have expressed their displeasure with having to stay beyond their scheduled 8-hour shift, as they often have plans after work.

    One suggestion was to have the system stop accepting calls after 5:30pm, but clients might get angry, as we advertise ourselves as being open until 6pm. Another suggestion was to schedule staff to work until 7 or 8pm, but many of the staff don’t like working late shifts.

    Does anyone have any other suggestions?

    1. Audiophile*

      I’ve encountered other companies that stop accepting calls after 5:45 or 5:50. Maybe a nice resolution would be to stop accepting calls at 5 minutes to 6.

      As someone who once was on hold by my student loan company’s system, well after they had closed, there definitely needs to be a system in place.The system should have cut off at a certain point, instead of continuing its loop.

      I’ve never worked in a call center, but I certainly understand the staff’s frustration.

    2. paul*

      I’d adjust the schedules and plan for it. From a customer service standpoint I’d be *livid* if I called during stated business hours and was told they weren’t taking calls. So adjust the stated hours–“effective XYZ date our hours are changing” or adjust staff schedules.

      It’ll upset some people and that’s unfortunate but I’m not sure what else you can really do. Shifting staffing hours to adjust for business needs is pretty normal, and it doesn’t sound like you’re pulling the week to week scheduling junk that drives reasonable people crazy. If you do adjust schedules I’d give everyone a heads up though, give them a couple of weeks.

    3. LCL*

      If management is determined to accept new calls until 6PM, management should talk to the workers and find out who would like the extra hours and who wouldn’t. In any work group there is always someone who will work every scrap of OT, someone who will work to help out during problems but not for regular business needs, someone who hates working overtime and will try to never do it, and someone who can’t ever work overtime because of a tight schedule. Then management will have to come up with an OT assignment schedule, which is a separate and longer post.

      1. paul*

        Yep. I should have said that too: Ask for volunteers to stay 30-60 minutes late and for god’s sakes let them get OT instead of time off in lieu

      2. Colette*

        That would be very difficult. If a call comes in at 5:45 (or 5:55), the person who takes it can’t hang up until it’s done. So either the people who want to leave don’t take calls for the last 30 minutes or so, or they have to stay. (Alternatively, I guess you could transfer the customer, but that is likely to end in a pretty bad customer experience.)

        And if half the group doesn’t want to stay, everyone else has to stay longer.

        I actually think the solution is to make sure the employees are scheduled for the time the queue closes + 30 (or 60) minutes. Maybe have 2 shifts, one that ends earlier and one that ends later.

    4. Panda Bandit*

      Add another shift, one that starts later than usual and ends at 7 (or 8). Ask around to see who’d want to be put on the later schedule.

    5. Observer*

      Time in Lieuis almost certainly illegal. I highly doubt that your positions can be classified as exempt, which means that you need to be paid for ALL OF THE TIME that you work.

  194. ZzzZZzz*

    Okay, I’m a terrible person!

    I don’t know how I did this exactly, but I overslept this morning! Until 10:30 a.m. I missed two meetings (with the same person). I’ve never done this before. And on a scale of 1-10, these aren’t the most important meetings of all time, but what do I say to her? I feel like “I overslept” just reeks of disregard for the other person.

    1. LawCat*

      Mortification + apology + vague on details

      “Sansa, I’m reaching out to apologize for missing our meetings on Friday. It was an accident, but this has never happened before and I am so embarrassed. I want you to know that I respect your time and I sincerely apologize for the error.”

  195. paul*

    30 minutes until a week’s vacation. 30 minutes until a week’s vacation. Come on 5pm Central.
    My job isn’t toxic or anything like that, but man oh man so looking forward to a week off. I hope no emergencies come up!

      1. paul*

        visiting family down in south Texas.

        Unfortunately my hay fever is kicking my rear today so we’ll see if I’m OK to do anything. I really hate mesquite

  196. Irritated*

    I’ve been dying to ask for advice about this all week! I have a coworker who gets flustered, upset and “stress out” easily. I think she’s quite good at her job, but I can’t stand those characteristics. She’s really rude and almost mean when she gets flustered/stress out, etc… and I can’t figure out how to interact with her? Earlier this week I wasn’t aware that she was “flustered” about something and DARED to tell her pertinent information and she basically ripped my head off for it. She’s fine when she’s calm, but I just don’t KNOW when she’s going to be stressed or whatever. Since the “incident” earlier this week, I’ve honestly been completely ignoring her. I haven’t said “hi” to her or anything. This isn’t the first time she’s done this to me and it’s just baffling to me that she’s not aware of how rude she can be to other people. It’s not my fault you’re stressed out and I’m sorry that I have to tell you something that you need to know about. How the hell do you deal with someone like this?

    1. Daria Grace*

      You shouldn’t have to do this, but can what you need to say be communicated via email?

    2. Sabine the Very Mean*

      You know, I recently worked with a person like this. She actually screamed at a few of us for coming in from outside to clock in for work by using the door nearest her as she had an allergy attack that day as if anyone could know that as the day had just begun. She did it to me on the wrong day and normally I would have felt horrible for snapping but I just got right up close to her so no one else heard and said, “under no circumstance, and I mean NO circumstance, are you welcome to speak to me that way” and kinda stood back and let her memorize my shape and my face and she apologized, cried, and went home for the day. She never spoke to me like that again. There’s something in the phrase “not welcome” that gets people’s attention. It has worked for me many times. I wasn’t mean to her and I wasn’t threatening–just clearly not to be messed with. Sabine is my cat, not me btw. I’m very nice ;-)

    3. Anon for this*

      This post could be about me and my ex boss (not ex because of this). Obviously I’ve got no idea what’s going on with your coworker but I can let you know what’s going on with me when that happens (in case it helps). Sorry that it’s really long.

      Mostly recently I’d been on a work trip trying to get something done that both my current and ex boss had really pushed. While I’d made a lot of progress there were major technical difficulties (outside of my control) which meant that the results weren’t what either boss wanted.

      This is roughly what went down when when I called my boss on the way to the airport.
      Me: We got this part done but there’s major issues with this so it’s not finished
      Him: We have to get this done. Third party isn’t going to continue committing resources if this is solved soon. (Note the implication that I got based on previous history was that I was making things too complicated so the delay was my fault)
      Me: My bits done. When the data is flowing it’s flowing correctly. It’s not flowing now. It’s nothing I’ve done. It’s something they have to solve
      Went through this a few times before moving to the next topic
      Him: So is second third party on track to do what they need to do
      Me: I followed up at the beginning of the week. They replied but I can’t remember what it was; it’s been a long week
      Him: We need to get this sorted
      Me: I don’t have access to my emails. I can check when I get to the airport
      This repeated a couple of times, he was able to find the email
      Me: I’ve only been able to partial test this bit. They were supposed to help out but they’ve done the wrong thing
      Him: Just go with what you’ve got. It’s not that important and bug is happening infrequently
      Me: I don’t have access to the figures at the moment but the frequency is increasing
      This repeats a couple of times
      Things that I don’t think I said but was definitely thinking – this was important before you went to the other project, you got me to rush the previous fix which I think is causing the current problem, how many times to I have to say that I don’t have the data in front of me, I’m sorry I can’t give you what you want but pushing isn’t going to change the answer.
      Him: I can’t have them blame you for the delay
      Me: I’ll do more testing over the weekend. This has to be volume testing in order to have confidence that the infrequent bug has been fixed
      At about this time I’m starting to loss my cool (bad phone connection didn’t help).

      Background: Sometimes on past occasions he’s treated my attempts to to get him to ease off as jokes or me being unreasonably pissy. Also running through my head the whole time is my employment situation has been uncertain for two years, is more uncertain now and I’m damaging it further (both with not being able to give home the answers he wanted and from how I was reacting). I haven’t had a real break in years so I’m burnt out. Throw in the fact that I’ve lost all confidence in my abilities (in part because trying to follow some of his instructions goes against my nature) and am currently depressed – I wasn’t in a good place for that call.

      From his point of view I was being unreasonable, unstable and attacking him. From my point of view I was reacting to what felt like an unrelenting attack.

      I’m generally a pretty nice and easy going person who hates conflict. I’m much more likely to turn things inward and beat myself up over them than I am to turn outwards. When it does go outwards it’s still really directed at myself (not that the person on the receiving end can tell). I’m aware that I’m rude and not nice when this is happening. It just makes me feel worse about myself so I feel like I’m being attacked externally and internally. I feel horrible during and after. I really do try to prevent it happening but it is so primal that it’s a real struggle.

      So how the hell do you deal with someone like that from the perspective of someone like that:
      * If they’re starting to push back, understand what/why they’re pushing back. Don’t just push forward to get what you want/need
      * If they’re trying to have the conversation pushed to a time when they’ve got access to data see if you can accommodate that
      * If they’re mentioning strong concerns about something don’t just dismiss the concerns
      * If they’ve said they don’t have control over something don’t push them as if they do have control of it
      * If they’re starting to get emotional stop the conversation and get them to contact you when they’re calmer

      Haven’t done too much research on it but you may want to look at Gretchen Rubbins obliger rebellion. Basically people who feel the need to oblige others, who’ve gone past their tolerance level and have snapped.

  197. Anon2016*

    I am wondering if anyone might have any ideas on how to handle a personality conflict with an indirect report that I work with. My company structure is hard to explain, but essentially we have a “President” who has their own support team, a “VP” (me) with my own team, and two other supporting departments. We did some restructuring a year or so ago which put me as the VP, then hired several new people into the support departments. One of the new support employees has been incredibly frigid with me (and one other employee) since the first week they started. At first I thought they were just shy and overwhelmed with learning the job, but it is getting worse and worse as time progresses. Examples being I will hand her a request (and explain what is going on and how to take care of it if it is an urgent issue or new to them) and they will grab it out of my hand and slam it down on their desk without saying a word. If I ask her if she is all set, she will either spin her chair around and face away from me or respond “ya” in a really exasperated tone. She rarely responds to my emails, leaving me to have to essentially babysit the things my department assigns her to make sure that they are actually done. This employee works staggered hours with my department, so sometimes I have to email her questions about things that appeared totally jacked up and ask for clarification and she will never respond. I am extremely nice about the mistakes and try to explain where things went wrong or how to do it differently. It is not like I am just barraging her with issues, but she will still never respond to me. The few times she has it’s with a “K.” I finally realized this week how much time I am spending fixing the mistakes and tracking down information that should be available, and it is just crazy! I have gone to her direct supervisor and my higher up a few times about the attitude issue and her basically not doing her job, and there are a million excuses. The President absolutely loves her and gets really weird (almost mad) with me when I mention any of the problems. I have no idea why the supervisor and President can’t see the issues, but apparently she is doing their work adequately. I have had literally everyone else come up to me and ask why this employee hates me since it is very obvious. I am pretty much at the point where I am going to do the bare minimum as far as tracking our requests to her and just let the poop hit the fan majorly. At least then they can see what is going on without all the hours I spend trying to straighten things out. I thought about just asking what her deal is with me, not that I care that she obviously doesn’t like me, but to hopefully come to a professional understanding where she will do the work assigned. I have tried killing with kindness already and that made it worse. It is just really uncomfortable since I have no backing from higher up, and not a lot of pull in the hire/fire department outside of my own direct team.

    1. Colette*

      Does her supervisor report to you? Are you at the same level as her supervisor?

      It sounds to me like you’re being really passive here. You need to start asking for what you want. If she reports to someone who reports to you, you need to tell (not ask) her supervisor to deal with it.

      If she reports to someone else, you need to go to her supervisor when there are issues, and not fix them yourself. So if you don’t get the information you need, you ask her supervisor for it. (Also, why are you asking her directly to do things for you? Is that the expected process, or should you be going to her supervisor?)

      (Also, what is the relationship between her and the president? Do they have some sort of connection outside of work?)

      1. Anon2016*

        Thanks for commenting back. Long story short, the organizational structure is terrible. I am technically over everyone in the company besides the president, and they all work to support my team’s operations. I have the title, but no power to change any personnel outside of my very direct reports. Her “supervisor” isn’t even in her department. I would definitely be sending stuff directly to him, but he oversees a completely unrelated department. The problem employee is the only one who does this particular support position. The supervisor previously did that position, so they made him the supervisor of this employee even though he has zero time to oversee or deal with them. I have the supervisor help me fix a good deal of the screw ups, but really neither one of us have time to allocate to it. I know he has gone to the employee about her mistakes, but is so busy with his own work that I think a lot of it gets blown off. Basically, the employee is mostly given free rein because nobody has time to deal with her. I do end up fixing a lot of these mistakes because the nature of our business is extremely time sensitive, and I can’t wait for the problem employee to get back into the office. My department is going through a huge busy season and I’ve been working 12-14 hour days just to keep OUR part of the business on track.

        I am definitely assertive with her when she is in the office and I can physically give her assignments. She mostly refuses to acknowledge my presence other than grabbing what I hand her. I tell her I need things done by X time (deadlines constantly!) and to please confirm with me when it is completed. I sometimes will get an “ok” back, but more often silence and the back of a chair. She never confirms with me that it has been done, so I have to go find her and follow up to make sure. If I say, “I really needed you to let me know that it was complete” she will say “k” then never do it correctly the next time. The more assertive I get with her, the less responsive she gets.
        The president and employee do not have a previous relationship, although they are very chummy. The supervisor and problem employee have know each-other for a very long time, and I think that was a big reason she was hired. The supervisor is a top performer and huge asset, so I think the president is leary of coming down hard on the problem employee and causing a rift. The problem employee was also recently diagnosed with a temporary medical condition that will require accommodation, and I think that also factors in. Hope this makes sense. I’m working on a fried brain and frustration. LOL

        1. Graciosa*

          You describe yourself as being assertive with her, but you’re not addressing the problem behavior. You have let her train you to avoid making any demands of her. She gets less responsive if you push this, so you don’t, and I don’t see anything to indicate that either you or her supervisor are truly addressing the behavior.

          Part of any job is getting along with your co-workers enough to be pleasant and polite in the office during working hours. She is rude to you, actively insubordinate (how else do you describe someone who fails to do something as simple as confirm completion of a task after repeated requests?), and your only response is to back down.

          I would disagree with your characterization of the supervisor as a top performer if she is not willing to make sure the problems are actually addressed. Occasionally saying something you consistently allow an employee to ignore without consequences (as the employee is apparently well aware) is not effective management.

          The president is apparently modeling an approach that says management should be afraid to manage because it might hurt someone’s feelings or cause an upset.

          And you’re quietly being driven nuts by a problem employee but refusing to speak up. Alison has a lot of good material on how to handle this situation, but I’m not actually seeing any willingness to do so.

          Good managers know that bad employees cost more time and effort to keep (remember all that rework you mentioned doing yourself because the employee isn’t doing her job?) than they do to coach where possible and fire if necessary.

          You need to have another conversation with both the supervisor and the president about fixing this situation. You acknowledge that supervisor has spoken to the employee about [Issues – specify as needed to make sure all three of you have a common understanding] but they have continued. The impact on [You and Your Team] is not one you can continue to live with [Add color about hours of productivity lost each week, time spent chasing her, whatever], and you need a permanent solution. You wanted to speak with them about what that solution should look like so you’re all on the same page.

          Options include having her report to you directly with your having the authority to fire her if her performance does not meet your standards (be VERY clear about this), reassigning the problem employee and hiring someone else to do the work you need, or giving the supervisor another chance to handle this with a specific timetable and agreement on actions (preferably including firing, but you could live with reassignment that gets her out of your hair) if the performance does not meet your standards.

          You are free to sympathize with the demands on the supervisor’s time – in which case why not help her out by taking over management of the employee? – and acknowledge the efforts she has made as long as you never move off the point that those efforts have not been effective and you need a permanent resolution. If keeping an insubordinate employee who is not performing is really important to the president and the supervisor, you have an option (you get someone else for your work and don’t have to deal with the protected employee) that will allow this and still improve your situation. If you have to frame it as a job mismatch to get rid of her from your work life, you can accept that.

          These are somewhat face-saving measures (sometimes useful in business), but the conversation will highlight the fact that the management team – and I’m including all three of you in this – has failed to manage. The problems with this employee will continue until that changes.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          I totally agree with Graciosa’s answers here.

          I would like to add, stop protecting everyone. If this man in the other department is her manager and your subordinate, tell him he has to manage her.
          As her supervisor all your requests should go to him anyway. So start doing that. Explain to him that this is what will be happening.

          Honestly this woman is behaving like a two year old. She needs a PIP or an exit door. There are just too many problems here.

          1. Anon2016*

            I really appreciate both of your honest replies. Yes, we have all failed to manage her. I definitely have a lot to talk about with the president this week. I am new to people management. I was a project manager in charge of deliverables and outside contractors before I was put in this position. My own team is 100% new, and had to be trained from the ground up. I have been incredibly spoiled with my own team being very independent, hard working, and open to feedback. A problem employee is something I have zero experience with, and it definitely shows.

            I can’t feasibly take on managing the problem employee with my division’s workload. However, after having the weekend to ponder the situation with a clear head, I have a game plan to discuss with the supervisor and president.

            Thank you all very much for the comments and ideas.

  198. Jessen*

    Very slightly work related: What’s the best business casual attire for someone who’s going through a lot of weight changes for medical reasons? I really can’t afford to be buying new clothes every 10 pounds on 14 bucks an hour.

    1. NewBoss2016*

      My co-worker bought several pairs of black stretchy pants from Macy’s that look just like slacks. They are a pretty thick stretchy material with a stretch waistband, but the knit looks like traditional slacks. I will post the a link to some that look a lot like them in a new comment. They have worked for her though multiple weight changes and look really nice. I keep meaning to buy some myself. As far as shirts, I have a bunch of billowy tunic-type shirts that look nice with slacks, but don’t have to be tucked in. Those seem pretty forgiving since the waist is cut wider. I have several colored jersey-knit blazers that I got from Khols that I wear over the billowy shirts.

    2. NewBoss2016*

      http://www.jcpenney.com/liz-claiborne-pull-on-millennium-pants/prod.jump?ppId=pp5008170180&country=US&currency=USD&selectedSKUId=76620710018&selectedLotId=7662071&fromBag=true&quantity=1&cm_mmc=ShoppingFeed-_-GooglePLA-_-Trousers-_-76620710018&utm_medium=cse&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=trousers&utm_content=76620710018&cid=cse%7Cgoogle%7C008%20-%20womens%20apparel%7Ctrousers_76620710018&gclid=Cj0KEQiAuonGBRCaotXoycysvIMBEiQAcxV0nIQtsP5Eayzbg1kt92JhnLfmaXc0pLNDV0B6TtqdsQQaAp6M8P8HAQ&kwid=productads-adid^45810124178-device^c-plaid^67390203458-sku^76620710018-adType^PLA

    3. Daria Grace*

      Not sure whether you’re male or female from your username so this may not apply. When I had the same problem I brought this style of top in a bunch of different work appropriate colors http://www.millers.com.au/Teal-Paisley-2-In-1-Blouse.aspx?p6691231&cr=xnkc__095438 The reason I liked that one is the pleated fabric can stretch a bit without clinging to the body like many stretchy fabrics do.

      Another thing to consider is going for very plain pants and tops that you can buy cheaply at discount department stores as needed and making them more fancy with accessories like scarves and shawls that will work no matter your size at the time.

      1. Jessen*

        It’s really the pants that are the hard part. I have to wear dress pants or skirts – so no stretch pants or jeans or anything. And I can’t just keep buying new pants over and over again.

    4. Manders*

      Are you looking for male or female coded clothing? I’ve found that it’s easier to find dress + legging combo outfits that forgive 10 pounds more or less weight than it is to find work-appropriate trousers that accommodate a changing waistline.

      If dresses are an option for you, look for:
      * Dresses that fit loosely, paired with belts that can be loosened or tightened around the waist as needed to give them some shape
      * Skirts with elastic material or an elastic waist
      * Loose, flowy blouses that can be tucked into skirts
      * Peplums! Peplums keep looking good when your waistline is fluctuating
      * One-size-fits-most leggings and tights for layering
      * Blazers and cardigans with some stretch to the fabric

      And stay away from:
      * Waistbands with no give to them
      * Anything that stays up by exactly fitting your hips or waist
      * Fitted button-downs
      * Sheath dresses, especially if they’re not made of fabric with some give to it

      Thrift stores are also a really convenient place to shop if you need affordable clothing but you know it won’t fit you for long.

      1. Jessen*

        Female. Not allowed to wear leggings unless under a skirt no shorter than 3″ above the knee.

  199. fishy*

    I got a huge raise this week! And I haven’t even been at this company for a half a year yet. To be fair, my starting salary was a little low for the field, but IMO it was reasonable enough for someone who had no professional experience in the field, which I didn’t when I was hired. But my managers seem really impressed by how quickly I’m progressing. It’s true that I love the work and have taken to it like a fish to water :) But even so, I don’t think most employers would have raised my pay so quickly. My company and my managers are so great; I feel really lucky to work here.

    That’s all, I just wanted to celebrate a little :)

    1. NewBoss2016*

      Yay! Congratulations! Unexpected raises are always the best, especially since you know that your hard work is noticed and paying off. PS, when I was just glancing at the comment I read it as “My fish got a huge raise this week.” I have my office fishy sitting next to me…maybe he needs a raise (treat)! :)

      1. fishy*

        Thank you!

        I definitely vote for giving your fish a raise. He works so hard every day, he deserves it ;)

    2. Hrovitnir*

      Woo hoo! It’s so nice to be appreciated, as well as to have more financial security. ^_^

  200. Sorgatani*

    Heard back from one of my job applications this week – for the first time in ages. Unfortunately the location is 120kms away from where I live (I ran it through a converter, and that’s around 74.5 miles). I don’t really see myself as relishing that drive, it’d be at least an hour and a half one way.
    The job is for a customer adviser at a bank.
    First off, I was asked to take a test. Abstract reasoning.
    I mentioned it to my job search provider, and I’m not sure she even knew what abstract reasoning was. I summarized the test – spotting patterns in apparently disparate data. But what probably got me to the NEXT next stage was part 2, which was ‘Rate the importance of the following statements in a work context, and only 1 of each number can be used at a time’
    Many of the statements reminded me of AAM, and I couldn’t wait for this thread – though I’ve forgotten the exact statements now. Things like managing outward emotions, the merits of constant feedback, and projecting confidence came up.
    But the next next stage is a video interview, with a 48 hour window for completion. I have a chest infection right now, and my voice sounds awful. I would guess that 22 hours have elapsed since receiving that email.
    I have no webcam, and no space on my phone to download the software… and I’m not confident.
    The sight of my face unnerves me, and I don’t actually have situations that are applicable for behavioral interview questions in my past.
    But it was nice to hear back, especially considering that I applied for this job about a week ago.
    Now what? I think I should just own it and withdraw my application rather than letting the 48 hour window time out.
    Main reason is not the video interview, just rethinking the distance. I don’t think I drive that far in a fortnight, let alone daily.
    Did I consider the distance when I applied? I did, but for some reason I remembered it as being closer.
    When you’re not doing the driving and are absorbed in a book the entire distance, it does not feel like an hour and a half of travel time.

    1. Daria Grace*

      I don’t think you should withdraw because of the video interview. I do think you need to think very carefully about that amount of driving. Even if it was all high speed limit highways, an hour and a half seems optimistic for that distance. More importantly, that’s going to be pretty draining to do everyday even whether you’re feeling good, there’s clear whether and it’s daylight. Doing when it when the weather is terrible, you’re exhausted/sick or you’re having to leave home before daylight will be horrible and possibly dangerous.

      1. Sorgatani*

        You are right.
        And I can’t call that hour and a half anything but a guess – the next-closest city (and the furthest I’ve driven that side of my hometown) is about an hour, and that turns out to be, not 3-quarters of the way there, but more like halfway!

        Soooo, I should retune my guess in that case.
        Call it 2 hours. I can’t see myself doing that. The drive to the town at midpoint is a dull one – so it’s easy to get complacent. Add tiredness and that I wouldn’t be used to doing the drive, and I don’t think it’s viable.

    2. Red*

      I took a job that was about an hour and a half from home out of desperation once. It was okay, but I was thankfully heading in the opposite direction from the peak traffic.
      So, that’s definitely one thing to consider. An hour and a half of driving is so, so much worse when you’re just sitting there.

  201. Chickaletta*

    Well, at least I know I had a better day than the guy, and his nanny or wife, whose young children interrupted his live skype interview on BBC today…

    I cringed and laughed the whole way through. I hope he forgives her for letting the children in. They just made everyone’s day a whole lot better, even if it wasn’t in the way they intended.

  202. Too Late?*

    I have been playing phone tag with a recruiter for 2 weeks now for a job I’m really interested in! The recruiter last called me Tuesday and I haven’t had any time to call back, but will this coming Monday. The only problem now is that it looks like the job is no longer taking applications! I hope it’s not too late.

  203. Frustrated graduate student*

    My advisor (I’m in a PhD program) is driving me nuts! I don’t know if all of my issues are with him or if I need to take personal responsibility for some of them, but I’ve been really wishing recently that I had known what I was signing up for when I joined his group – if I had, I might not have wanted to work with him.

    1. I (and other group members) am always getting pulled into work that benefits the research group but doesn’t help my dissertation. Things like drying and sieving sediments, writing data reports for an external agency (that funds a project that I am not at all going to use in my own research).

    2. In addition to being asked to do tasks like the above, the actual things he tells me to do for my own research are too vague and scattered to be actually helpful – in a meeting, he’ll tell me to do six different poorly-worded things and then be surprised when I haven’t made significant progress on all of them at our next check-in.

    3. And oh, god, the meetings! He wants to have a group meeting for my research project (1 hr), a group meeting for our lab (1.5 hrs), an incredibly pointless “journal club” meeting (1 hr), and sometimes an individual meeting (1+ hrs). Of these meetings, I would say that only the first one is a good use of my time. My advisor also does not seem to understand brevity at all.

    4. The field work is always time-consuming and stressful. Our field season this summer includes 3 different trips totaling ~5 weeks in the field (plus time to prep and pack all of our equipment, which probably adds at least a few more weeks to that total). Due to scheduling issues, I am probably the only person in my group – including my f***ing advisor – who will have to go on all three trips for the full duration. The trip that I will have the least support on is that one that is not related to my research at all, and I will probably be there on my birthday.

    1. Frustrated graduate student*

      This is mostly venting, but if anyone has any advice on how not to let my frustration with my advisor/my lack of progress send me into passive-aggression or BEC mode, I’m all ears.

    2. University of Trantor*

      Your situation sounds frustrating.

      What kind of reputation does your advisor have in his academic field? What’s his reputation within your department?

      Do you think your advisor has a favorable opinion of you (as a student)?

      If you have a viable alternative for advisor, do you know what the process is at your school for changing advisors? And if you did, do you have any sense of the degree to which feathers will be ruffled?

      Specifically point-by-point:

      1. Unfortunately, I don’t think this is very unusual, even though the work you’re doing isn’t going to help you with your dissertation.

      2. Can you ask him to be more specific? Or, if he says something like “you should include more ‘data’ on dilithium crystals,” say, “Ok, great. So, should I be focusing the decay rate after continuous Warp 7 use in Galaxy-class starships after the Khitomer Accords?” Essentially, if he’s not volunteering specifics right off the bat, try to create some of your own during the same dialogue so you can see what’s behind his thinking…hopefully, he’ll agree with your specific point or point you in right direction.*

      *To the extent he really wants you to write about things that benefit his research and not your dissertation, try to find a happy medium.

      3. This is probably an ingrained habit on your advisor’s part, so it’s going to be a difficult habit to break. Do you think there’s any way to try to make these meetings more productive? I could see some hope for the individual meeting.

      4. To what extent is any of this fieldwork helpful for your dissertation? I don’t mean to sound harsh, but this sort of thing is something that does come with being a PhD student. Perhaps you could at least get out of one of the trips?

      Related question: It sounds like your advisor’s research and your dissertation topic don’t really align (at all). In which case, what was your reasoning for selecting your advisor?

      1. Frustrated graduate student*

        I don’t have a good feel for what his reputation is, unfortunately – I don’t think I’m steeped enough in the academic culture to have a good intuitive understanding of that, and he’s only been in the department for a few years. Before he worked at my university, he worked for a government lab.

        I think that he probably thinks of me as an okay student. I don’t think that I’m a superstar, but I don’t get bad vibes from him.

        I think that the advisor-changing process would be pretty dramatic in my department and is something I’d be unlikely to attempt unless things get much more toxic than they are now.

        1. Good to know.

        2/3. Yes, you’re probably right that I should ask him for more specifics, and I will try to push harder against vague instructions in the future. I think that I sometimes don’t press for specifics because I am frustrated at how long the meeting’s been or at how many (sometimes disparate) tasks have been thrown in my direction at once – but that’s still at least partially on me to push back against things that don’t make sense and ask for clarification when I need it.

        4. Two of the trips actually should be helpful for my research; the one I am most annoyed about/not looking forward to is not. (And part of my issue with that trip is that the people who it may benefit the most – my advisor and another graduate student – will likely not be present for the whole thing, while I probably will have to be. It isn’t either of their faults, in this case, but it still feels unfair.) Possibly you’re right that it’s just par for the course, but I’m concerned that the three field experiments (we only had one last year, and that was pretty draining and stressful) might completely engulf the next three or four or five months.

        Answer to the related question: It’s less that he doesn’t have an interest in my research domain (he does; it’s just been a little slow to get off the ground) and more that I’m struggling to find a balance between doing my own work and doing work to support the lab. I also think that my advisor’s style isn’t a great match for me, personally – he’s kind of hands-on in unhelpful ways (scheduling a lot of meetings that I find disruptive to my workflow) and hands-off in areas where I’d like him to be more hands-on (helping/pushing me to set specific goals and helping me to figure out the steps between where I am now and where I want to be in a year or two). Because there are a lot of deadlines and deliverables associated with the support to the lab (and when those deadlines are nearby, advisor can get fairly demanding), and because I don’t have a very focused plan for myself, it’s easy to get sucked into work that doesn’t further my own progress.

        1. Alice*

          If he loves meetings but they aren’t productive, maybe try to influence the agendas, formally or informally? Good luck.

        2. University of Trantor*

          Again, definitely a frustrating situation for you. And outside of academia (and even in academia), I think a fair number of people would say that many PhD students get taken advantage of by both their institution and their advisor.

          That said, it definitely sounds like you should keep him as your advisor, at least at this juncture, given that his reputation seems okay (at the very least…you would have heard rumors/gossip by now if it wasn’t) and that it’s not a “thing” to change advisors in your department.

          You mentioned that his style of advising/supervising doesn’t really mesh with your style of learning, and that seems to be a major thing that you wish was different. I wish I had more actionable advice on this point, but the best I can offer is trying to steer him and his conversations towards something that’s more productive for you. Given your advisor has only been in academia (as a faculty member) for a few years, he may also really not have too much in the way of good dissertation advising skills. Sadly, most universities don’t really give meaningful training/guidance on how to coach new faculty members when it comes to advising graduate/PhD students.

          I would say get what you can out of the irrelevant trip and consider the unrelated drudgery to be part of the ancillary cost of getting a PhD. I realize it’s not great to feel like you’re having to do serious work without getting much/anything in return, but maybe it will help to re-frame it. More generally, part of being a PhD student is doing stuff that benefits your advisor and/or institution, but not necessarily you directly.

          You said you don’t have a focused plan, and I do think you would benefit a lot from trying to hammer one out, both in terms of getting your dissertation done within the appropriate timeline and for your own peace of mind. It should have concrete checkpoints/deadlines, and while deviating from them may become necessarily, it will at least force you to always consider the greater timeline.

          It will also let you tell yourself during say, the irrelevant trip, that “Even though what I’m doing right now isn’t related, I’m still on track with my dissertation because I’ve already completed X and Y is on track for completion by its upcoming deadline.” It doesn’t seem like your advisor is going to be a lot of help on this front, although, if you’ve never actually expressed to him that you want a focused plan, consider asking him about it, and he might actually have some good insights…if nothing else, from his own days a PhD student.

          If you have a good relationship with another faculty member in your department, definitely consider building out that relationship more. They can serve as a more informal surrogate advisor, too (provided your current advisor isn’t the type to get jealous/territorial about this).

    3. Channel Z*

      Frustrated Graduate Student – is there any other kind? I am one too my advisor is the opposite, he seems to do anything to avoid having any meetings of any kind. I do have breadth to do what I want, which is great. The latest problem is him over editing. My first chapter came back to me, and he inserted a page and a half introduction that he wrote himself with references to his new journal article that hasn’t been published yet, and hasn’t provided me a copy. Am I right in thinking this is not OK?
      I digress. I agree with the above comment about specifics. But maybe change the focus. Instead of looking for specifivs from him, be the one to provide the specifics. Say I’m going to work on A which I expect to take X weeks, then follow up with B depending on results of A. It is also useful to do some write ups of work as you go along, it shows progress, even if your experiments didn’t work it is useful information that you can include in thesis.
      Is there any way to incorporate the project work into thesis? I am doing this with my work, I am able to use data already generated by me for a project, and do a new statistical analysis with a different focus for my thesis. Our University started a new thing which is PhD by publication, where you don’t have to write a thesis but if you have enough high quality publications through a project that can actually be your dissertation. This is a great idea because it recognizes that project commitments like yours take a lot of time, time away from thesis witing.

      1. Frustrated graduate student*

        Yikes, that insertion would drive me nuts! I’m not sure what kind of leeway you have to edit it back, but I would probably ask for his new journal article and then take what you need from it/his introduction to write your own intro.

        One thing that I’m coming to understand from talking to you and other commenters is that I need to make a very specific plan for what I’m doing and when, as opposed to a kind of vague list of things that I need to do. Which seems like it should be obvious, now that I’m saying it, but planning and structuring very large tasks isn’t something that I’m naturally good at or something that I’ve had much practice/help with in the past.

        I have a meeting with the head of my department next week where I plan to explain some of the issues I’m having, so maybe while I’m there I’ll ask his help in figuring out how to make clear short- and long-term plans for my work.

        1. Channel Z*

          I wasn’t good at breaking up large tasks either, but I’m getting better with practice and I set deadlines for myself to keep me on task. It makes me sound organized, but actually it’s more of an aide to combat my natural I’ll do it tomorrow mentality. Good luck with the department head meeting!

    4. SophieChotek*

      Frustrated PhD student — I’ve been there too, though perhaps not in the same way.
      1. This sounds pretty par for the course, especially for fields that require lab work or “digs” or things that tend to require collaboration. Do you at least get to be an author on the papers later? (Your advisor is first author, but somewhere you get a byline, not an acknowledgment). In that sense, perhaps you cam reframe this as “building your CV.” (And it is, in other ways, perhaps less tangible with experience.)

      2. Ugh, my advisor was like that too. As University of Trantor said, either ask clarifying questions at the moment — or if you can’t, maybe email later and say. You suggested A. To this I was thinking I would do X…is that wha you mean. Or, is it possible that your advisor is trying to not just “hand the answer to you” and is pushing you to think more deeply about your methodology, your argument, whatever. I remember when I was working on my PhD my advisor alway seemed to give me pithy one-liners of advice…and at the time I was like “this is s not helpful!”. Looking back I still think “that really wasn’t helpful” and I’m maybe could have used more coaching in that deep thinking or making that transference leap from apply this idea we read about here to your project. But I’d also wonder about that. (Just from my own experience.)

      3. Ugh sorry about the meetings. Thankfully I largely escaped that. but that sounds like a pain. But once again — do you get anything out of those meetings. Even observing how your advisor interacts with others. Is he the same with others? Does he give others equally incoherent feedback? Can you see the issue your colleague have and see how their solutions or struggles apply to your work or, vice versa, help them find a solution (and hope in turn they will at some point help you.) Or just convince everyone to cut down on the meetings because they are not productive.

      4. See my point at #1. Do you at least get funded for these? At the time I hate some of my research trips, etc. but now when I don’t have funding…I admit to thinking of them rather nostalgically, as I have to come up with my own funding. But even if the research trips are really looking at…the remains of fantastic beasts and your research area is elder wands…are there some intersections or overlap that will benefit you? Methodologies that you can learn? Or even, thinking ahead to your career (teaching? research? etc.) do you see how these lessons and experiences might help you then?

      Best of luck.

  204. chickabiddy*

    I know that it is super-late but if anyone is still reading… I polish teapots. Recently my “boss” (I’m actually freelance but “boss” is easiest) has decided to go back and put a new, different kind of polish on a certain set of pots. Some of this set are teapots that I polished when I first started with him around a year ago and I’m cringing because, in retrospect, they are still pretty rough and not well done. I have been asked to fix any previous polishing errors if I see them. These pots do not have actual technical errors but they aren’t smooth and pretty.

    I am paid by the piece so I would not be paid for repolishing, and he accepted and paid for them when I submitted them so he obviously considered them to be good enough, but it’s hurting my pride to see them. Is my ego a good enough reason to work for free? (If it matters, I don’t sign my teapots. They go out under the company name, not my own and, in fact, I am not allowed to claim them as my work.)

    1. Tandar*

      I would not work for free in this case, if there are not actual technical errors and have been accepted by your boss. If you really want to re-do them, please check with your boss first. He may not want to change anything without technical errors. There is always going to be something you can do better when polishing teapots. A year from now, you’ll probably look at the teapots you polished now and see things you could have done better.

  205. ST*

    I think my supervisor and grand supervisor are collaborating to fire me.

    I’ve been at this job for 15 years, and been damn good at it. I’ve created great teapot products, gotten great community and press recognition for my teapot projects, and generally been an asset to my company.

    For the last few years I reported to the director of the company. A new director was hired last fall. Just recently I was transferred to the department of a recently-hired one-step-lower manager because the new Director wanted to have fewer direct reports. It’s not a perfect fit from a duties perspective. Think: she’s in charge of teapot displaying and selling, and I’m in charge of tea pot polishing and designing – sure, my polishing and design contributes to her displays, but that’s not all that my job entails. Er, anyway. . .

    This week I was summoned to her office and handed a “Strategic Plan” that lays out an entirely new way of doing my job. I had no input at all in this design (despite having an MS and more experience in the actual field, which they do not). It is my professional opinion that given the staffing and facilities of this teapot factory that there is no way that the goals of the plan can be met.

    Coincidentally, at the same meeting I was given an HR form that showed that they had tweaked my title by a word or two and now I was in a six month probationary period (since I had “moved into a new job category”). The thing is, my job is exactly the same, except that some of my old lower-level teapot duties were passed on to a new lower-level hire.

    Or maybe not a coincidence. . .

    Add this to the pending divorce and someone totaling my car last weekend and I’m in the if-I-didn’t-have-kids-I’d-swallow-a-handful-of-sleeping-pills mood.

    1. TheLazyB*

      Oh dear. That all sounds rather worrying. Would you be able to actually express concerns to them, or ask them for their reasoning?

      Sounds like you’re having a hell of a time at the mo. Sending internet hugs.

    2. Alice*

      That’s so frustrating! I will keep my fingers crossed that all this bad luck passes soon.

    3. Hrovitnir*

      Damn, that sucks. I hope you have some good people you can spend some time with, because I think you need support even if you’re not feeling it. :( Internet hugs if you want them.

      Can you/have you had a discussion basically saying “it is [your] professional opinion that given the staffing and facilities of this teapot factory that there is no way that the goals of the plan can be met”? If they are not wanting to push you out I would hope they would be open to the discussion, and if they are I wouldn’t think it would change anything, even if they respond badly.

      Feel free to ignore me though, that was just my thought.

      1. ST*

        ” I hope you have some good people you can spend some time with”

        I don’t really, other than my kids, and my wife and I have already dumped enough on them.

        “Can you/have you had a discussion basically saying “it is [your] professional opinion that given the staffing and facilities of this teapot factory that there is no way that the goals of the plan can be met”? If they are not wanting to push you out I would hope they would be open to the discussion, and if they are I wouldn’t think it would change anything, even if they respond badly.”

        We sort of had that discussion in the meeting, and the response was along the lines of “Well if you don’t think that you can fulfil these requirements perhaps we should get HR in here to discuss the alternatives.”

    4. Anono-me*

      That sounds terrible.

      1. If the sleeping pills line was at all serious, please talk to someone right away. A therapist or help line.

      If it wasn’t serious, just frustration speaking, I still recommend finding a therapist or other counselor the talk to. This is too much to deal with all at once for anyone.

      As far as work goes, I would suggest talking to an employment lawyer and polishing your resume.

      Good luck and a better tomorrow.

      1. ST*

        “1. If the sleeping pills line was at all serious, please talk to someone right away. A therapist or help line.”

        As I said, it would be serious if I didn’t have kids.
        I’d just lay my head down and go to sleep.

        I have been seeing a therapist since the divorce came up, but if it’s not gonna work to help me fix the marriage (which it became pretty obvious just this morning that it will not) then I may as well save the money. I’m going to need it.

        1. Observer*

          Maybe it’s time to find a different therapist. You sound like you are pretty close to the end of your rope – get some help with that.

    5. University of Trantor*

      I’m sorry about the divorce and the totaled car. The latter alone is stressful enough on its own.

      I don’t know what your boss and grand-boss are up to, but I do agree with you that whatever they’re up to doesn’t sound good for you. At the very least, they don’t really seem to care whether or not you’re satisfied with your job, and that’s a sign of either poor management or just not caring, period.

      It’s also weird to stick someone on a probationary period (intended for new hires) when all you’ve done is tweak the job description and title. Even then, a lot of places don’t have the same probationary period (or any at all) for internal transfers/promotions. With at-will employment, an employer can fire the employee anyways (with or without probation), so one possibility is that your boss is trying to set up a scenario where it’s easier to get rid of you under your employer’s HR policies.

      If an internal transfer within your company is possible right now, I’d suggest looking into that option. Otherwise, if it’s possible (given your other life events), start doing a job search.

      Lastly, make sure that you’re taking care of your mental health, too. There’s some major sources of stress in your life right now, and humans aren’t necessarily made to handle that level of stress, especially over longer periods of time.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      As gently as possible, I’d like to suggest that not everything here can be a 5 alarm fire. You may need to make some trade-offs in order to get through this time in life.

      My suggestion is, play their game. Don’t shoot me. You need a job, of everything that is happening here, the only thing that does not require an immediate response is your job. You can stall that by agreeing to their game for the moment. Go in Monday and tell them you thought about it over the weekend and you are ready to work on their new plan. Keep the job going as long as you can, knowing full well that in a year or maybe less you will be out of there if you want to be.

      Your most pressing problem- my opinion of course- is the car. Once you have your wheels back you will have that much less of a pressure cooker going on. Nothing like being car-less to make anyone feel really crappy.

      Next is your divorce and your kids. That needs your attention.

      Once you get these things calmed down, you can begin to think about what to do with this job of yours.

      I am so sorry it is raining in your life. Please build yourself a support team. Just a few good people, who will think things through with you, offer thoughtful suggestions and maybe once in a while lend a helping hand. Don’t let yourself fall into isolation. It’s really easy to want to crawl under a rock and hide. The problem with disconnecting from others is that we make our lives unnecessarily harder. Let people help you in the manner that you hope they would let you help them if the situation was reversed. You will have your turn later to pay them back, so skip worrying about that part.

      Let us know how you are doing.

    7. Channel Z*

      Hi ST, it sounds tough for you at the moment, I will try to throw out a different perspective. I agree with comment above that your mental health, car, and family come first. And they have put you on 6 month probation, so that does give you some time to get yourself sorted before job hunting begins, and that might not even be necessary. You are assuming the worst, when that is only one possible scenario. Maybe probation is standard practice in a re-org. Maybe passing off the lower level duties suggests potential for more managerial duties. Maybe your stress has affected your performance, and they are actually trying to help you by lightening the load and giving you a chance to get back to 100%. If they wanted to fire you, they would have done so. Assuming they are going to fire you doesn’t serve you well and puts you on the defensive. Can you frame it in your mind that you can delay your (job) worries for 6 months and focus on the job as it is right now?

      1. ST*

        “If they wanted to fire you, they would have done so. ”

        I’m gov’t, so it would take them quite a while. I have 14 years of good evaluations.

        Thanks all for the advice. I hope to get a check for the car this week and do some shopping.

  206. Red*

    Hi guys,

    Long time lurker, I think I’ve posted maybe once in the entire time I’ve been reading this site (working through the archives, I’m up to mid last year now!)

    I finally resigned from my position last week – and ever since, I’ve been treated like utter rubbish by management. It’s like I did something obscene to the letterbox, and everyone is refusing to acknowledge my presence or even speak to me. It’s draining, hurtful and exhausting because all I want to do is wrap things up and do my best to make the transition easy :(

    Does anyone have any advice to help me survive the next fifteen business days by any chance? I’ve been spending at least half an hour a day in tears because of this, and I just want to be gone.

    Thank you!

    1. Emily*

      I don’t have any great advice for you, but I’m very sorry that your soon-to-be-former workplace is treating you badly. :( Try not to internalize their poor treatment of you – management’s bad behavior is not a reflection of anything that you did wrong.

      It’s not clear from your comment if management is being chilly or if they’re being downright hostile. If it’s the latter, you aren’t actually obligated to stick out the notice period (see this AAM post: https://www.askamanager.org/2010/08/update-about-boss-whos-angry-over-two.html)

    2. Hrovitnir*

      Man, I’m sorry. I have no advice, because I basically suck at this, but I have support! You’ve done a good thing and soon you will be freeee and will never have to think about these people – and they’ve proven very nicely that they are not people worth your time.

    3. SophieChotek*

      I am sorry about this. I know saying “it’s only 2 weeks” isn’t that helpful…but soon you’ll be free.
      Do you have enough work to do? Are you helping transition?
      If not, could you use up some PTO or something?

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Sometimes what we tell ourselves can be helpful.

      Look at their silent treatment. It’s PROOF that you made the right choice. You wanted to leave for known reasons, now you have a surprising, new reason to add to that list.

      (My family uses the silent treatment. I cannot write here what I think of this behavior.)

      It sounds like just management is ignoring you? Look around, talk with the people who will talk with you. Perhaps you have a trusted cohort who can explain that management always does this.
      Decide to busy yourself with wrapping up. No one can take our dignity without our permission. Wrap it up in a professional manner. IF they are not professional that is on them. In years to come you will be able to look back and say “I took the high road.” And that will be very meaningful to you.

      Be extra kind to you. At home take a long soak in a hot tub, read a good book, do things that help you to relax.
      Cry when you need to. Tears are also for lost relationships. It’s okay to cry and you will come out the other side and find all new parts of yourself.

      I can assure you, that others are watching what is happening to you and they are making their own plans to leave. They will never tell you this, though. But you can hold on to this thought also.

      1. Red*

        Thank you so much, I really appreciate your kind comments. It helps to have the support to be honest! I’m not a very talkative person but this isolation is actually surprisingly lonely.

        Thirteen and a half work days to go.

  207. West Coast Anonymous*

    I’m hoping there are other late night readers here, who can give me advice. I got re-orged from my fabulous job that I was excelling at with mostly awesome co-workers into a new team. I was not consulted at all before this happened. I was simply told about it after the fact. I’m functionally in a new job that I would never have applied for and frankly think I lack the requisite skills for (think changed from QAing teapot making to designing teapots).

    I’ve had a difficult conversation with my manger where we both mutually decided I would leave the job. Except we’ve never followed up with a discussion of a timeline for me leaving. Part of me thinks I should just ride things out where I’m at until my manager has a replacement lined up (what I think he’s trying to wait for) and part of me is at BEC with everything and wants to give my two-week notice. Financially, I can swing a period of unemployment and I have a side gig that I’d love to focus on for a bit (although sadly, it is unlikely my side gig will ever go full time). But of course, everything in the world is very unstable right now, so it seems like I should stock up as much money as I can in case the economy crashes down or other issues happen.

    Meanwhile, what I really want to happen is to be transferred back to my old team. I’m not sure how to pursue that. I haven’t directly asked my manager but my vibe is manager would not be supportive. OTOH, my old team manager has expressed wishing I was still part of their team. Would it be a breach of protocol to go to my manager’s manager to ask about it?

    1. TheLazyB*

      Can you ask your old manager if she thinks transferring back would be possible? I would ask that first in case it’s not.

      1. West Coast Anonymous*

        I know that old team manager would love to have me back on the team because we’ve explicitly discussed it, but it’s not up to her. I’m not entirely clear who it’s up to, but it’s likely to be my manager’s manager.

  208. Oscar Madisoy*

    Can I make a request? Lots of times people posting here use abbreviations and acronyms that not everyone may know. Is it reasonable to ask that the first time they spell out the phrase, and then follow it up with abbreviations? For example: “My boss put me on a performance improvement plan (PIP). I’m really afraid that no matter how hard I work at achieving the goals of the PIP, I’m going to get fired anyway.”

    It never hurts to presume someone is going to be seeing an expression for the first time.

    1. Colette*

      That’s a good practice in a document, but cumbersome and impossible to enforce when you’re dealing with short comments from hundreds of people. People who don’t recognize an acronym can google or ask what it stands for, if they can’t figure it out from context.

      I see the comment section as more of a conversation than a lecture. In a lecture, you have to be clear because there’s no room for questions until the end; in a conversation you can assume more prior knowledge because the person you’re talking to can stop you and ask if they’re confused.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Ask when you see an acronym or abbreviation. I’ve seen many people ask from time to time.

      I do stumble on shortened screen names. Like you could be referred to as OM in someone’s reply. That might stop me for a moment- what is an OM? OHHhhh, it’s the OP or previous poster.

    3. Anony Oz*

      As a newer reader here, I would find your suggestion helpful too OP (Original Poster? Lol). But over time I can picture me getting frustrated with things being spelt out in full in every comment (even just the first time for every acronym is a lot of extra text to scan through when there’s thousands of comments).

      Maybe a nice to have is if Alison added a footer link to some industry acronyms and concepts for noobies? In my part of the world what seem to be extremely common terms used often here don’t exist – things like PTO and exempt / non-exempt employees.

      Of course, there’s always google, and sometimes it’s just fun to go on a bit of a tangent to find out what something means…
      I finally made the effort to google what BEC meant the other week … maybe just me but being spoonfed all the time is a bit borish.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        I would rather just encourage people to google — I’ll never be able to think of/cover all the terms people might have questions about, but google will!

  209. Amy Pond*

    I’m graduating in a month and a half, and I still haven’t even had an interview. I’ve been following this blog and other professional website’s advice, but no bite. I have at least two people check over my cover letter and resume for each job (including career services people) and I don’t know what else I can do. I’ve been doing a bit of networking, but nothings helping. I’m almost giving up on getting a job in my field and I’m going to start applying to customer service positions cause I need the money. Is that going to be terrible for my job history?

    1. University of Trantor*

      No, it won’t be terrible for your job history (long gaps of complete unemployment are going to be worse…not to mention the effect on your finances), but the longer you spend away from your field of study, the more difficult it’s going to become to break back into the field.

      Do you have professional (non-internship) work experience? What percentage of your peers in your major/program already have jobs lined up in the field? How did they get them?

      (And you have a great Dr. Who username.)

    2. persimmon*

      This is exactly the wrong time to get discouraged! It isn’t surprising that you haven’t found a job while still in school, because in most fields (though I don’t know yours of course) most employers want to hire someone who can start right away, and not in several months. Just keep applying through the semester and the summer, and it’s certainly fine to find a short-term job to start, as well–you don’t even have to list it on your resume. Also, may not apply to your field, but if you can find something related through AmeriCorps (which has quite diverse placements) that is a great way to get a foot in the door.

  210. Long-Winded and Anonymous*

    Didn’t get a chance to post this yesterday but hoping that some folks are still reading today! Trying to remove as many potentially identifying details as possible…

    Some background:
    I have a work friend in a parallel group (that my department used to be a part of, so I am well aware of the politics of the group). The leader of that group (her grandboss) has a history on focusing on minutiae that, quite frankly, someone at his level shouldn’t have time to focus on. Her boss manages a mix of managers and individual contributors – there are essentially a few different specialties under his purview. My friend’s team (she manages some individual contributors) is self-sufficient, gets their work done, and her boss is pretty removed from their day to day operations, focusing on the other areas he’s responsible for.

    Our company’s official work from home policy is: you can designate one weekly telecommuting day for yourself, and other ad-hoc WFH is occasionally acceptable for illness, plumber, etc. Enforcement of the ad-hoc WFH stuff is generally at a manager’s discretion. The work that we do can absolutely be done from home with few to no issues. My friend’s grandboss was opposed to an official WFH policy for a long time, and was eventually overruled higher up.

    My friend has some health issues that she has not yet reached out for accommodations for. Some of the health issues are visible – if you spend any time around her, you will see them happening. Her boss *should* be aware of them (and is to some extent – I’m not quite sure how much). As a result, lately, she has been needing to WFH more often than her designated once a week. Either she uses all of her available resources/energy to get into the office and then has nothing left for the rest of the day, or she stays home and uses her available energy to work. She is available and responsive over email and chat when at home.

    My friend had a meeting with her boss the other morning (they end up having one on ones maybe once a month). In this meeting, her boss informed her that Grandboss had actively been noticing that she had not been in the office as often as she “should” be and had made a lot of comments about it.

    In the same meeting, her boss also informed her that Grandboss was wondering why her team wasn’t flailing since they had lost a full-time member of the team a few months ago, and wanted to get reports on what her team was spending time on, and access to their task queue. This was NOT prompted by any complaints about her team not getting their work done.

    This entire meeting left her very upset. Even if these 2 issues weren’t related, her boss made them related by bringing them up at the same time. In her mind – “my team isn’t flailing because I had adequate notice of my employee leaving, and I have planned everything accordingly so that we didn’t flail.” In addition – she is angry/upset that while she has health issues, she feels like she’s being ragged on/targeted for not being physically in the office as often as she should be.

    From my perspective – I feel like her boss has done her a disservice in having both of these conversations at once. Having once been managed by him, I am well aware of his shortcomings when it comes to delivering negative feedback. Grandboss is not a great example for him to mold himself after as far as managing people.

    So far, my advice to her has been to go to HR and:
    – find out what documentation she needs to request a medical accommodation to WFH more often (others in the company can do that; it’s absolutely not a hardship to the company). She’s annoyed/angry that her boss can’t handle it off the record and treat her like an adult, but I am trying to encourage her to advocate for herself and reminding her that there are protections in place for this.
    – discuss the timing of the conversations from her boss and frame it in the context of being worried about retaliation if she can get a medical accommodation approved.

    What else should she do? Knowing that her boss is already aware of some of her medical issues (like I said, they’re pretty visible if you’ve spent any amount of time around her), should he have done more to encourage her to seek formal accommodations instead of just delivering Grandboss’s feedback?

    1. Tandar*

      She needs to follow your advice and get her medical accommodation on the record. Yes, the boss should work with her even without this since he is aware of her medical issues, but the way to protect herself and get what she needs is to formally request the medical accommodation.

      If she is in the US and eligible for FMLA, she may want to consider starting the process for that as well so that she has it in place in case she needs intermittent leave due to her medical issues, so they can’t retaliate against her for that.

  211. Office Mercenary*

    I wasn’t able to get in on the action yesterday so this might be too late, but here goes…

    I have a phone interview on Monday (yay!) and I’m trying to figure out how to prepare. For background: a friend of my grad school professor was looking for freelancers to work for a major company in our field, and passed my CV on to a hiring manager, who scheduled the call. I’m not sure if this is a proper interview or just a preliminary screening with instructions for further testing. I don’t know what form that testing will take, and I don’t even know much about the position itself as there wasn’t a formal job description. The company website lists openings for other positions that I plan to apply to, but not for this one.

    What little I do know: the position entails media monitoring and/or copy editing (not clear which) in English/Spanish/Portuguese (not clear which) news items for use in political risk reports. When I asked the hiring manager for more info via email he said he’d tell me more over the phone. I’ve done Arabic-language media monitoring for a different political risk company and for a non-profit, and while I have no professional experience with Latin America, I’m a Latin American citizen who speaks Spanish. I hope that counts for something.

    Even though this position is only part time and presumably doesn’t have benefits, getting an in with the company would be a great opportunity. It can be done remotely and on my own schedule, so I could still get a full time job elsewhere. To prepare, I’m reading up on the company and brushing up on Latin American current events. (My regional knowledge is mostly limited to my own countries plus MENA.) I don’t know what else to do. To be on the safe side, I should assume it’s a full interview and prep for standard interview questions, but it’s hard to reverse engineer questions without a job description. Any suggestions?

    1. University of Trantor*

      Yes, definitely be prepared for a full-on interview. And take a mental inventory of your skills and work experiences…it could come in handy if the job turns out to be something a bit different than what you’re currently envisioning.

      It sounds like you’re doing good preparation. Good luck with the phone interview!

  212. Theo*

    besides the jobs that i know i might be overqualified with my college degrees, i wonder sometimes if im the problem and i didnt get the job

    1. Theo*

      also idk if i should try to become a teacher. back in school i have had help people with classes before but you know i aint perfect A student :P I am like swinging between A and B’s. In addition, IDK if i have the strength to deal with helicopter parents or teenagers…

  213. Erin*

    I work in retail, very high turnover. I applied for a position 8 months maybe a year ago, for a large big box store. Which would be a demotion, but with better pay and benefits. I don’t care about a lesser job title. I haven’t heard any response. The website said they keep applications on file for 6 months. I’ve applied twice once in the spring 2 years ago. How long should I wait to reapply? This company is hard to get into, because they offer insurance to part timers

    1. University of Trantor*

      While you shouldn’t be applying for jobs constantly at the same company (and you’re not), I’d say once every few of months would be fine, given that it’s retail and a high turnover rate. You should definitely feel okay about submitting another application now.

      While some companies do go back and look at rejected applicants, most do not, even if though they do keep the old applications on file. You said the company is hard to get into, so I can’t imagine they have much trouble attracting good candidates when they post a new job opening (hence, no need to got back and look at old apps).

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      A while back, a commenter used “chocolate teapots” as a fictional example of a company’s products. It’s often preferable to have a generic stand-in than to have to get specific about what your company does (both for simplicity’s sake and anonymity’s sake). I used it myself a few times, and then it caught on more widely. (I actually usually try to avoid using it too frequently in questions since I know it’ll be confusing to some readers, but at times it’s very useful.)

  215. The Claims Examiner*

    I took 2 mental health days this week to turn it into a 4 day weekend, and I highly recommend everyone else doing the same if you can get away. I thought about work for about 3 hours on Thursday morning, and then I was over it. Use your vacation days!

  216. Grommett*

    This is pretty specific and I’m not sure if anyone has experienced anything similar but here goes: I was promoted to a management position a few years ago. The promotion was likely more to accommodate my salary and title with the type of work I was doing, rather than a testament to my ability to manage people, since my boss and I shared the direct reports. I was more of a second sounding board for the department staff. About 2 years later it was determined that an additional supervisor wasn’t needed. I was demoted and told specifically and in writing that it wasn’t due to performance, but due to structuring. I was praised for handling the transition well. Recently, the department underwent another restructuring and I was passed over in favor of another colleague for the management position. During the meeting, I was told I was a valued member of the department along with some broad feedback about why I didn’t get the promotion. I had a good relationship with my boss. I believe I have a good standing in the company. I also believe I’m viewed as a workhorse who will get things done, but perhaps isn’t considered very creative or soft-skill exceptional. I can’t leave for a variety of reasons. And to be perfectly honest, I think I’m more upset that I was beat rather than I am about the loss of not being management. But, I also am having a hard time reconciling myself to reporting to my former peer, who I helped acclimate to the company when she first started. I’m also having a hard time determining exactly how my boss and the company view me. My performance review at the end of the year was very good. I’ve received no verbal or written warnings. But I also feel like I’m being jerked around and my ego, anxiety, and confidence isn’t doing well.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Maybe go back in on the conversation with your boss and reframe. “Boss, I would like to better position myself for consideration the next time a promotion comes up. What are my steps in doing that?”

      If he tap dances around that, just reframe again and say, “I know we went over some general things in my eval, but I am having a hard time turning those things into actionable steps.”

  217. Gurl*

    Wondering about people’s take on this one. So for the last two summers I’ve had a job at a place that paid decently, but it’s not in my field. This summer I interviewed and they offered me my job back, but I don’t think I want to take it, because I have other places I’m currently pursuing (though no guarantee I’ll get them). I’m not sure I’m even planning to go back to my hometown at all this summer; if I don’t find a job I may just stay and take courses at school. That being said…

    Some employers may call this place, which, all they can do is confirm dates of employment (especially because they would call into HR and it’s a big place etc.), but I don’t want to accept the offer they gave me and then take the chance that someone calls into HR and they recognize my name (it’s an unusual name) and be all like “yo… she has a job offer here dude, why are you calling?” I don’t think I’ll ever want to work at that place again because it’s not related to my field but I’m not sure what to do. I’m not sure if I took the offer and then emailed them back saying I don’t want it if that would make me ineligible for rehire, which I know some companies ask about. Presumably I wouldn’t be doing that until after I had another job in the bag.

    I’d say there’s like a 15% chance I’ll decide to go back there because it does pay well, but honestly I have no idea if I will change my mind. This seems like a silly question, and I hope it makes sense.

    1. Gurl*

      For reference, I’m only really applying for internships, but I still don’t really want to burn bridges.

  218. Autumn*

    Hey Everyone:
    My apologies if this comment doesn’t belong here. I just need some positive thoughts thrown my way. Next week I have an interview. Over the past year I’ve had 12 interviews with no second interviews or offers to show for them. After my last interview, I found this blog and this weekend I’m going to pour through Alison’s interview prep guide. I’m actually writing the answers out longhand so I really digest them.

    Wish me luck!

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