open thread – July 7-8, 2017

by Alison Green on July 7, 2017

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

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  1. D.W.*

    One of my colleagues, and good work friend, has been allowing her sister to visit her at the office. There is nothing wrong with family members / SO’s visiting at the office. I became concerned when the sister stayed and hung around after lunch hours. Her sister would hangout at her desk speaking loudly in an open floorplan office, and hangout in the conference room with us and other staff, while we are working, watching T.V. and playing games on her phone, without headphones. My colleague in turn would entertain her and “join in” on the fun so to speak. This happened two Fridays in a row. The second time, I excused myself from the conference room because I was uncomfortable and I didn’t want to be associated with what was happening.

    My colleague has a strained relationship with her manager, complains about how she is treated in the office, and is planning on leaving the company. Her sister lives in another state and has returned home, so this doesn’t happen often, and won’t for a while, but is it worth mentioning to her? I know that her sister has visited in the past (before I began working here). I don’t want my colleague to feel as if I’m attacking her, but I don’t want her to engage in behavior that shows a lack of professionalism and that could give her manager or other staff reason to criticize her or her work.

    1. Tracy*

      Since her sister has returned home and your colleague is planning on leaving the company anyway, I wouldn’t say anything. It seems like the problem will take care of itself.

    2. The Rat-Catcher*

      I had a whole response written because I had missed the part where Colleague was a good friend, advising against saying anything. Now I’m reconsidering since your concern stems from friendship and wanting your colleague to make a good impression, but still leaning toward not saying anything. I think you could have addressed it in the moment, and you can even address it in the future if Sister comes to visit, but as it stands now, what’s done is done. It sounds like Colleague might not be employed there when Sister comes to visit next, so it may be a moot point.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I agree, let it go.
        If your manager has issues with your friend, this will not solve those issues.

    3. anan*

      I’d say something if it happened again – “Hey Jane, it’s hard to work while you and your sister are socializing. Maybe your sister can wait for you at (cafe or park nearby).” I’d only escalate to a manager if she is rude or aggressive in response – even if her sister doesn’t leave, but they take the hint and quiet down, I’d probably let it go. You could also raise with your manager that it might benefit everyone if there were clear guidelines on when and where people who are neither employees nor clients can be entertained.

      1. Rachel in NYC*

        Or if your colleague says something to you about office things- something that gives you an opening for appropriate work feedback that maybe she’ll be open to hearing from a work friend (since this wouldn’t go over well in her next office either).

    4. Toph*

      Even though she’s out the door, I’d still probably say something, possibly moreso because it does sound like she’s a bit out the door. But I’d say it directly to her. If it’s disrupting your (and presumably other coworkers’) work, it’s appropriate to either ask her that her sister chill somewhere else, or at minimum wear headphones and speak more quietly. I wouldn’t bother bringing it to a manager or anything, but if you’re friends I wouldn’t think she’d bristle too much. If she’s planning on leaving soon she may be in DGAF-mode about the job and sort of forgetting that the rest of you do still need to work there, and since whatever her reasons for leaving the company she does still seem to have at least one friend (you) she probably cares enough not to make your life more difficult. On the other hand, if you get the impression she’s not just got overboard senioritis and may genuinely not realize how unprofessional this is, it’s probably worth cluing her in on that too, lest she continue the pattern at her new office after she leaves.

      1. Alli525*

        This is the right response. Even if she plans on leaving, it can take a while to find a new job, and OP’s work shouldn’t suffer because her friendworker is bringing a disruptive guest to work.

    5. Sevenrider*

      I have a question regarding participating in a fitness challenge at work. My workplace joined one of the global challenge groups for counting steps per day. When the first email went out, I declined to join a team. Then a few weeks later I was sent an email asking if I would consider joining a team. I declined again. Then I was approached by the person managing the activity and was asked again. I finally joined a team because I felt pressured. I do not want this to happen again since now I feel that others will think if they keep asking me I will finally cave and do whatever activity they are planning. Should I speak to my manager or go directly to HR. My office has recently begun doing these team building type activities and for personal reasons, I do not always want to participate.

      1. MillersSpring*

        Go to the person organizing the activity who you previously caved to, and say, “After thinking about it, I’ve decided not to participate in the fitness challenge.” If they balk or pressure you, just reply, “Sorry but it’s what I’ve decided.”

        THEN if they get huffy or others pressure you, go to your manager. If she is unsympathetic, go to HR.

        1. Emily S.*

          I think this is good advice. If you try this, and the person pressures you, I’d also say — just stick to your guns.

          And just as MillersSpring said, if you get flack after that, then talk with your manager.
          And after that, you can seek out HR if there’s still an issue.

      2. Product mgmt*

        I’ve done these things and just…not done it. I (and many others) just never wore the trackers or uploaded our steps,even though we were assigned to a team. Some people were into it and many weren’t.

        1. Em*

          I was just going to suggest this — don’t count your steps, don’t add them to the team total.

  2. ZSD*

    This week, Washington (state) passed a paid family and medical leave insurance program! Starting in 2020, Washington workers will be able to take 12 (or 16, in some cases) weeks of partially paid leave when they welcome a new child, address a serious health issue for themselves or a loved one, provide elder care or other caregiving, or have military-related circumstances.

    Washington joins California, New Jersey, Rhode Island, New York (effective 2018), and DC (2020) in having paid family and medical leave programs.

    Link to follow in another comment.

    3. The Rat-Catcher*

      Missouri now has a paid parental leave policy for state workers! I’m hoping we get that passed for the whole state, but our legislature hasn’t made it as much of a priority as our governor has. (I’m pretty opposed to some things Governor does, but this was cool.)

      So glad you have this in WA! It’s long overdue in the US.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Oh yes, Missouri. Governor Goblin also just signed a pre-emptive law that forbids cities from raising their minimum wage over the state limit (currently $7.70 an hour). St. Louis was all set to raise theirs to $11 but now they cannot, and many companies will undoubtedly drop their wage to save a few bucks.

        One more nail in the coffin marked “Elizabeth wants to get the living f*ck out of this backward bunghole.” >:(

        1. Optimistic Prime*

          This is simply spiteful, especially because any thinking person would realize that the cost of living is different in different parts of the state. I’m sure it’s more expensive to live in St. Louis or Kansas City than it is to live in Lebanon or Sedalia, for example (two places I picked at random off a map). Why shouldn’t St. Louis be able to raise theirs to $11/hour in recognition that it’s more expensive to survive there?

          And $7.75…for cripes’ sake minimum wage is so outdated. Even assuming you worked 40 hours a week and didn’t take off any days or weeks, that’s only 133% of the federal poverty line for a single individual, which makes you eligible for a lot of social services. And if you have just one kid you’re well under the poverty line.

    4. Anna*

      It’s a good month for the PNW! Oregon just passed a law requiring advance scheduling in retail and food service areas so employees can plan their lives and not have to worry about last minute changes to their schedules.

      1. KR*

        That’s awesome, especially that it’s going to increase to 2 weeks. I spent a long time not being able to plan more than a week in advance and it really hinders the employee from making appointments and having a life outside of their job.

        1. Paquita*

          My DH is in retail and the scheduling stinks. Schedule comes out on Wednesday for the next week. And sometimes they change it after the fact and expect people to log in to the website and check for messages. That won’t open so you can read the entire thing. ‘Your schedule was changed’ is not real helpful.

    5. AVP*

      Raise your hand if you’re legitimately waiting for the NY law to kick in before you procreate. ( ~me~)

    6. Althea*

      Awesome! I work in NY and I’ve been so happy that I’ll get to benefit from the new rules there next year! Hubs and I just found out we’re pregnant again, and I can say that here because it’s anonymous :D Nobody else knows yet.

    7. Optimistic Prime*

      Dude, I live in WA and I had no idea that we passed this. Hooray for us! This is one of the reasons I love WA.

    8. Anxa*

      I know the NJ law only applies to a specific subset of workers. You have to be able to find a ft job with a large company that’s long term before you can indulge in the fmla benefits.

      1. ZSD*

        That’s FMLA, not paid leave. Even if you work for a small employer and have only been there a short time, you’re entitled to the state paid family leave support. Check out the chart I linked to above!
        Oh, and NJ’s leave duration is probably going to double, from six weeks to 12!
        (You’re right that workers at smaller businesses won’t have job protection, meaning that they can get paid on their leave, but their employers can legally fire them for taking it. It’s a problem.)

  3. Fat Baby*

    Piggybacking off the culture thread…What is a professional way to say that certain company events are not my thing? I’m a little older and the company does a lot of events that are catered to the younger workforce. Some are just too physical, too immature, too silly for a professional, mature lady. My boss is older too but desperate to be younger and he thinks these events are a great for morale. And for some people they are but I DREAD them!

    So when my boss asks, “Are you in for roller blading laser tag beer pong today?” How do I politely decline without actually calling the events immature? They start early afternoon, not at the end of the work day when I can just go home. I want to open his eyes to the fact that the events are all catered to only one group of our employees. Most of the other older employees participate begrudgingly but have told me they feel obligated.

    1. Matilda Jefferies*

      I would just keep it simple. “Thanks for the invite, but it’s not really my thing. Hope you guys have fun!”

      1. Bostonian*

        Perfect. It’s a polite decline, yet subtly lets boss know that not everybody is into these events. Also, I would add, if there ARE social events that you would do with your coworkers, suggest more of those?

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Hm, I think I would go with something like, “Beer pong isn’t my thing, but I’d love to participate in something tamer next time!”

      To me, the word “tame” is a little less condescending than “immature,” but gets the same general message across.

    3. Newby*

      Are you able to tell your manager “I’d really rather not. X isn’t really something I enjoy.” Where I work saying that is completely acceptable, but I realize that is not true everywhere. If it is after work you can go with “Not today. I have other plans.”

    4. My name is Inigo Montoya*

      I have embraced being the office curmudgeon when it comes to group bonding activities! I’ve just replaced them with activities that I’m comfortable with – specifically something involving food or modifying the activity at hand. That way I still show I care about the group. :-)

      So my go to response is , “Sorry, I can’t ride unicorns with y’all after work today, but I’ll bring in donuts tomorrow morning so that I can hear all about it.” Or “I have the worst hand/eye coordination out there, so I won’t be spending $50 to join in your hackeysack team, but I’ll come by for the first 30-minutes to take pictures for the company newsletter before I go home to sit on my couch with my cat”.

      No one has every pushed back when I’ve modified the group activity, but I know I’m lucky with that.

        1. My name is Inigo Montoya*

          Exactly. No one is ever upset with the lady who brings in free carbs.

          1. Hedgehog*

            What happens when they suggest an office fencing tournament? But then they are probably too intimidated to do so anyway. ;)

            1. My name is Inigo Montoya*

              Volunteer to the be the referee? And cupcakes, possibly homemade.

    5. paperfiend*

      I think you could just say, “Roller blading laser tag beer pong really isn’t my thing, so I’m going to sit this one out. Oh, by the way, who is in the planning group for these events? I have some suggestions I’d like to throw in the mix for future team activities.”

      Then suggest things that you and your other not-so-young colleagues would enjoy. In my (tech related, varied-age-and-ability, mixed-gender) team, we’ve gone to sci-fi/action movies, gone curling (the ice game, not hair!), volunteered with Feed My Starving Children and Habitat for Humanity, gone for happy hour at locally owned restaurants, attended a colleague’s theater production (she still does theater from a previous career). Some were during the day (paid) and some were after hours. We usually get between half and two thirds of the team at any given event, and that’s fine, but over the course of several events we usually get everyone at least once. People self-select the events they’re interested in.

      1. CBH*

        +1 a million times. I don’t mind happy hour here and there, but like everyone I’m not into certain events. I love the idea of making suggestions to planning committee.

      2. Amber T*

        +1!!

        And honestly, roller blading laser tag beer pong sounds exhausting to me, as a youngin’. There might be some young folks who have no interest in participating but feel they have to because MandatoryFun! So someone else suggesting “let’s do X” might be a huge comfort for someone out there.

        1. Anxa*

          Yea I am not that old but this sounds dreadful. I was on one staff where I didn’t mind forced fun, but the chemistry was so strong activities didn’t matter.

    6. Snark (formerly Liet)*

      You don’t need to justify yourself or explain. “Thanks, but that’s not really my thing. Have fun!” “Thanks, but that sounds like an event I wouldn’t enjoy.” “Thanks, but I’m not really into laser roller pong-derby.”

      And honestly, I think any reasonable boss should be willing to hear, “Bossman, I know some people really enjoy work events centered on sports and drinking, but I know a lot of people would like it if we had a mix of those events and tamer, less physical ones. Sports activities are sometimes less appealing to me and the rest of the older folks in the office.” He might not love to hear it, but if he’s reasonable, that’s a reasonable thing to say.

    7. Here we go again*

      I think you are making this too much about age and “maturity” as opposed to your personal preference. The beer pong thing does seem unprofessional, but Laser tag and rollerblading seem like normal team bonding activities. I also know of people of all ages who hate all of these kinds of activities…

      I would just focus on how you don’t enjoy doing these things and shift your attitude form the age/maturity thing to recognizing different people have different preferences. You could also suggest an alternative. Bowling or something like a Dave and Busters are good options where you can opt out of participating, but still socialize.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep.There are probably younger people who do not want to go either. You’re best bet it to just say, “not my thing”. This way the boss does not get it in her head that it’s a younger person activity and therefore younger people SHOULD go.

      2. K.*

        Yeah, we played laser tag at my old job and the median age of that team was probably 40. The person who was most into it was the VP, who was in her mid-50s. I’m in my 30s and very active but I don’t think I’d be up for rollerblading (never done it, afraid I’d fall and hurt myself, would rather not do so in front of colleagues). The most successful team thing I’ve been a part of was bowling, because you could just sit around if you didn’t want to do it and it was funny if you weren’t good at it. The stakes were low.

      3. Snark (formerly Liet)*

        The age/maturity thing kind of comes off dismissive and insulting, too.

        1. Here we go again*

          I wanted to say something like this, but couldn’t think of a tactful way to do so, so thank you! :-)

        2. Kali*

          I’m glad someone said this.

          Liking activities you don’t enjoy doesnt make someone immature. There is no correlation between maturity and roller blades. Plenty of middle aged, mature, professionals have fun by staying active and maybe being a little bit silly. They’re not desperately trying to reclaim some lost youth.

          Your preferences are fine, whatever they are. You don’t need to justify them by insulting your coworkers. Just say no thank you or suggest something youd rather do for next time. The level of holier than thou judgment honestly sounds a bit teenaged to me.

    8. Triangle Pose*

      Don’t call events that a group of coworkers and your boss enjoy “immature” or “too silly.” Suggest other events that you think cater to the other group of employees that are not as physical. Make it about being inclusive, not denigrating younger employees or your boss. It’s possible your boss just likes the events, that they are good for morale and is not “desperate to be younger.”

      1. Optimistic Prime*

        Yes, and don’t suggest that other people are not mature or professional because they enjoy them. It is possible to be both mature and professional and enjoy laser tag or rollerblading.

    9. rubyrose*

      Are the other older employees under this same boss, or other bosses? And are you all required to work if you don’t want to roller blading laser tag beer pong?

      Maybe you all could band together and come up with your own alternative activity while the main event is occurring? Like go off in a corner and talk to each other? Maybe seeing that a few times will give management a clue.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Talk with each other? wow. That is a really weird idea. /snark

        I am not a fan of forced fun. I think people who know each other and can talk with each other make the best work groups.

    10. Free Meerkats (formerly Gene)*

      Roller blade laser tag beer pong sounds awesome! Though I’d change to quad skates, because my old ankles (and even my young ankles when I had them) and blades (roller or ice) don’t get along. It really sucked being the kid who couldn’t ice skate when in grade school in South Dakota.

    11. Rusty Shackelford*

      Personally, instead of calling the event immature, I’d blame my own shortcomings. “Oh no, with my knees I don’t dare try to rollerblade. Maybe when we come up with some more tame events I can join in.” I know some people here would have issues with that tactic, but I’d want to point out that the events they’ve planned aren’t a good idea for some of the staff.

    12. CBH*

      I always say it’s not my thing and usually use the excuse that I’ve already got plans.

      If they insist that you have to come come, I make the joke that I’m a great cheerleader. I will support the team, cheer for them, hold the bags, order the drinks… but rollerblading laser tag beer ping pong is not my thing.

      1. Willow Sunstar*

        I would use an excuse. My co-workers all know I do Toastmasters, and am doing it to the level where I was an area director last year. Hey, great time to visit club xyz that I have been invited to, but never got around to it.

    13. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I tend toward cheerful bluntness for things like this. “Oh, geez, no way. Beer pong just isn’t my thing. I’ll wait for the introvert-friendly ‘reading silently near each other’ event. Have fun though!”

      2. CC*

        Ahahaha. So a while back, survival job was recruiting for social committee members. On the poster they distributed, they listed a bunch of activities (including “reading quietly”) and declared all of them “rubbish” and that the social committee would do a much better job than that.

        Welp. That really encouraged me to be on the social committee… (eyeroll) And of the events they’ve put on, I’ll go get the free food sometimes (if it’s company sponsored food) but otherwise ignore all their events and signup sheets.

        1. Optimistic Prime*

          I am a huge, gigantic, very big fan of reading quietly – it’s one of my favorite things in the world – but it’s not exactly a social activity :)

    14. Beancounter Eric*

      Bone spurs in one’s knees is a good generic out. “Sorry, press of deadlines” works well, if it is accurate.
      If they are absolutely going to demand you attend, offer to be the photographer – I take tons of pictures, dump them to a network folder and say “Here you go – have fun!!”

      Your boss sounds like a real prize to work for….best way to boost morale is pay people well, don’t impose senseless regulations and unreasonable expectations, and give them the tools to do the job.

    15. I'll see your pulled hamstring and raise you osteo arthritis*

      I usually respond to these types of events with “Thanks, but that’s not really my style.”

    17. Elizabeth West*

      That reminds me; I have roller blades I never use. I would actually probably do this.
      I think I will save them for (WHEN NOT IF) I move back to CA. :D

    18. Optimistic Prime*

      Are you comfortable with your boss and/or with the people who plan the events in the office? Because if so, I’d bring it up directly with either party (or both). I joined the morale team at my office in part for this and it’s something I bring up regularly – that we should mix events that are more chill with the more active/physical ones. (And it’s not even an age thing…honestly I prefer morale events where I can actually hold a conversation with my coworkers and get to know them. Laser tag and rollerblading doesn’t really lend itself to that.)

      Even if you don’t want to directly say “We should do less physical stuff” you can provide some suggestions to the folks that plan this, like “How about we do a baseball game/barbecue/whatever this time?” when it comes time to make another plan. In my experience the folks who plan this stuff are looking for ideas from the rest of the team.

  4. EA*

    Hi all-

    I just learned that there is a hiring freeze at my work until October. I’ve never experienced anything like this. What does it usually mean? I know there are some budget issues- so is this a precursor to layoffs? Is it smart to start looking for jobs?

    1. Intern Manager*

      Can only speak from personal experience. The last time we had a hiring freeze in July 2016 – and a big re-org in december. Right now we have another hiring freeze and I already heard that they’re looking to ‘slim down’ the organisation more. (We have too many interns working for us).

      So overall, you should consider your position, how many others there are what you can do, how much it contributes to the business and then keep an eye on what’s happening. Looking around can’t hurt – but you also have to be careful with gossip, which is generally out of control during times like this. Half of that stuff isn’t true.

      But you’re not crazy to be concerned.

    2. Rat in the Sugar*

      I think it may depend on your company and industry? My company works as a contractor, so we’ve put on a hiring freeze before when we’re waiting for new contracts to be awarded–we don’t want to hire someone and then find out we didn’t get the job and don’t have anything for them to bill their hours to. So for us, a hiring freeze means we’re not sure if we’re going to have the budget for more people, but doesn’t mean those of us who are here already are in jeopardy. I’m not sure how it works if you’re not a contractor, though.

    3. Snark (formerly Liet)*

      I’d start a low-key, informal job search, yeah. Just to develop options, if nothing else.

      1. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

        Just curious – do you all think its ok to mention that as the reason that you’re looking (concerned about company financials, basically)? Or does that fall under the “don’t bad mouth your current/past employers” umbrella. Would the company you’re interviewing with worry that you might “blab” if they end up having finacial difficulties (or things that appear to be difficulties)?

        1. Snark (formerly Liet)*

          Nooooo, don’t mention it. If it did get back to your current employers, it would be Bad. If you’re directly asked why you’re switching jobs, something pleasant like “I’m actually quite happy in my current postion, but [duties] in this one sound really excited, and I was interested in tossing my hat in the ring for the chance to grow professionally in that area.”

          1. EA*

            In my case this hiring freeze will make the news, when it is announced. I think if something is public then it is fine to use it as a reason for leaving.

            1. Snark (formerly Liet)*

              Oh yeah, if it’s all over Business Insider, rock on. It won’t even be a question, they’ll probably just assume you’re gettin’ while it’s good.

          2. Government Worker*

            The exception here would be a government agency, where the hiring freeze is public knowledge. Hiring freezes in government are often a way to control costs through the end of a fiscal year when the budget is tight and don’t lead to layoffs, but they can restrict opportunities for promotion or job changes within the agency. If the freeze looks like it may last a while, that’s a legitimate and understandable reason to be looking elsewhere.

        2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          I would not mention that you’re concerned about the company’s financials or future growth. I don’t think it falls under the “don’t badmouth your current employers rule”—for me, it falls under the “don’t tell others your decision is based on speculation” rule.

          I think you’ll be in a stronger position if you can come up with a substantive answer for why you’re looking for new opportunities that are more about the potential New Employer or your professional growth. Talking about what you’re excited about is usually more compelling than an answer that says, “I’m worried my employer is falling apart and am now applying out of fear.” The latter can be true, but I don’t think it will serve you well to mention it in interviews.

    4. NPOQueen*

      I’ve had hiring freezes at all of my jobs except the current one, the Recession hit the non-profit industry really hard. In some cases yes, it was a precursor to layoffs, but never in my department. Has there been an incentive program for early retirement? Sometimes that coupled with a freeze is enough to trim the workforce to sustainable levels. And I can’t speak for other companies, but the first to go at mine were always high level people, or people who had been at the company a long time. It’s unfair, but they generally had salaries that were higher than market value. It hurt to lose all that institutional knowledge though.

      I wouldn’t say you should immediately start looking, but think about how important your area is to the overall company (I was in fundraising, we almost never got cut because we brought in good money). Keep your eyes open, but look for other signs to see if you should make the job search a priority.

    5. The Rat-Catcher*

      Government agency perspective. We had a hiring freeze from Jan-Jun 2016 because we went over budget on hiring. We have a lot of turnover that somehow didn’t get taken into account in the budget. Open positions were also cut, but no layoffs occurred. Not laying off is actually a pretty big priority for my state – there’s a whole plan for how exactly layoffs will be determined if they do occur, but it hasn’t happened in a long time. You know your company better than I do – all I can say is that it doesn’t ALWAYS mean layoffs are imminent.

      1. Anna*

        Yeah, especially in government agencies attrition is the first line of defense in a hiring freeze.

      2. Another person*

        I have worked at state agencies where the “hiring freeze” went on for years and it meant no new positions could be created and you had to get agency head approval to hire for existing positions (replacing people who leave.) Which was just a long rubber stamp process for the most part.

        Periodically positions that were vacant too long were cut, but it very rarely resulted in anyone being laid off.

      3. Jillociraptor*

        Yes, we are using a hiring freeze (or a position control process where you have to get approved to hire) as a way to avoid layoffs if at all possible.

      4. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        Yeah; I have worked through three hiring freezes, now (2 federal freezes, one of which lasted 3 years, and one state hiring freeze). In those cases, no one was fired, but they did offer incentives for early retirement as a way to shrink staff. I guess the situation is a little different, though, because all of our problems flowed from Congress’s inability to pass a budget—not from a loss of revenue in the traditional sense.

        I’ve also worked at nonprofits that have had hiring freezes, but those freezes were adopted during the Recession to avoid laying people off. It made people’s workloads awful, but it also meant that no one lost their jobs. And of course, I’ve seen hiring freezes in the lead up to private companies merging (which often results in layoffs post-merger, but some departments emerge unscathed while others are consolidated).

      5. Dead Quote Olympics*

        Similar to above, in state agency and academia, hiring freezes are usually attempts to avoid laying off staff or a response to a particular budget cycle. I’ve been in hiring freezes in academia that lasted 2-3 years.

    6. Rincat*

      It can mean either “no NEW position creation or hiring” or “no hiring period – filling vacancies or new positions.”

      One thing that typically happens is that your workload increases – or doesn’t decrease – because you can’t get any additional personnel. So if that’s the case, just get clear with your manager on your work priorities and what you can realistically accomplish. It’s common to absorb other duties and have the scope of your job change somewhat. But also – nothing can happen at all! It can vary quite a bit.

      I don’t think it’s necessarily a precursor to layoffs. You don’t really need to start looking for a job unless you want to – it’s possible your workload might get really high, or you absorb some duties you aren’t interested in, etc.

    7. PB*

      A hiring freeze is definitely a sign of budget issues, but not necessarily a precursor to layoffs. I’ve been through a number of hiring freezes, but they’ve never led to layoffs. Others have had the opposite experience, of course, but I would tend to think that layoffs would be at least a few steps away. When there are budget problems, freezing hiring can make good sense. Hiring is time consuming and costs money. Not filling positions can mean lapsed salaries can be used for other purposes.

      On the other hand, in my experience with salary freezes, workloads generally go up, and lead to a higher level of stress in the office. And it’s not impossible that layoffs might happen down the road, but it’s also not a guarantee. It wouldn’t be a bad idea to start low-key job searching, but I wouldn’t worry too much at this point.

    8. Hannah*

      To share a positive case… My tech company had a hiring freeze for probably around a year. They were profitable, but a high profile project had run into unexpected challenges so they were quite open that they were just being conservative by putting this hiring freeze in place. I appreciated the transparency, and by all accounts they were telling the truth, because this was maybe 5 years ago and there were never layoffs. The company completely recovered and grew substantially after this incident.

    9. Becky*

      I’ve been through several hiring freezes. At my current company, they were precursors to layoffs related to contract delays. At a previous company, they were related to unforseen challenges related to existing contracts where budgets had to be shuffled to cover costs on our side and no layoffs occurred.

      If you know there are budgetary issues at your office separate to the hiring freeze, and you have the time and energy, updating your resume and quietly exploring opportunities may be a good idea. As Alison says, it can take time to find a job, and interviewing doesn’t mean you have to take a job.

    10. Trout 'Waver*

      The only one I’ve been through was a run-up to a merger. No layoffs on our side.

    11. Anon Anon*

      Where I work we had a hiring freeze in 2009 (due to the recession). We didn’t have layoffs. However, we also had plenty of money in the bank. A hiring freeze can be a case of an organization being financially responsible. A lot of it depends on the organization.

      Compare this to one of our competitor’s who never has hiring freeze’s, they only have two modes hiring like crazy or laying people off like crazy. So it all depends.

    12. Candy*

      I work for a unionized university so my experience might be a bit different but we had a hiring freeze here and it just meant that they encouraged staff who were eligible for retirement to take it by a certain date (and be paid severance up to a maximum of 14 weeks) and then they redistributed those duties instead of filling the vacated positions.

    13. Tardis*

      This is interesting, because I realize there was a hiring freeze at my work (a large university) and it never crossed my mind at the time whether there would be layoffs. In retrospect, the freeze lasted for over a year, and there have been a series of layoffs following that. The layoffs would be considered large in some contexts (>20 positions eliminated at a time) but it’s a very large university so it’s fairly small relative to overall staffing. Both the hiring freeze and the layoffs were due to budget issues and declining enrollment, so I’d think about the root cause in this case.

    14. Anxa*

      The agency I did my internship at had a hiring freeze. No one that was already in lost their job, but this was county government

      1. Anxa*

        But government is different because the freezes often aren’t directly finance related. They may hold on even tighter to their current employees, and a freeze can cost a lot of money. Lower turnover at the top means more high salaries accumulating higher pensions and fewer less expensive new employees

    15. Chaordic One*

      When I worked for a state agency a hiring freeze meant that no new positions could be created AND that any existing positions that came open would go unfilled until the freeze ended. There were exceptions made, but the procedures to get around the freeze were awkward and time-consuming and they didn’t happen very often.

      In some instances the freezes were followed by reductions in funding for various agencies and that, in turn, did result in people being laid off.

      What I remember most about the hiring freezes that in many agencies there laws mandating that people fill certain positions in spite of the hiring freezes. As a result the employees who were left and who were mostly hourly workers ended up being forced to work a lot of overtime. Some of them became very burnt out, while others appreciated the chance to work more earn overtime pay.

      The additional overtime expenses pretty much offset any money that was saved from imposing the hiring freeze.

  5. Intern Manager*

    I need a sanity check please. I manage a team of six (yes, six) interns, of which only 4 were present for the following.

    Last wednesday our company threw a big party with open bar and unlimited alcohol. We told our team repeatedly over the course of multiple days they could go and get as drunk as they wanted, as long as they showed up between 9 and 9.30 the next day.

    Intern 1 shows up at 8.59, intern 2 at 9.15, intern 3 calls in sick due to the party food at 8 (but is super reliable and hard-working otherwise, so we believed it) and intern 4…… well he didn’t show up until 1.30 PM. (He said he forgot to plug his phone and his alarm didn’t go off).

    My manager was ready to end his internship right there, but I managed to convince her otherwise. I had a stern talk with him that this was completely unacceptable in so many ways, and that while this normally would be an internship ending mistake, we would make an exception this once because he is a very high performer. (He was pretty scared.)

    Personally, I felt it was a serious mistake, but not internship ending worthy. I am 29/F, my manager is 40/F. The intern started 3 months ago and has 2 months to go. We are a huge tech company. Very casual dress, short management lines, etc.

    Opinions?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Honestly, the bigger mistake here is that your company is encouraging people to get drunk at work events. When that goes wrong, as it invariably will at some point, the solution isn’t to blame the interns.

      1. Intern Manager*

        You’d see it as encouraging? I see it more as them having some trust in our capability to behave like professional adults and (ya know) have the judgment to not get too drunk on a work event.

        We do have a ‘work hard, play hard’ culture. Friday evenings are… always interesting.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Yeah, I see this as encouraging: “We told our team repeatedly over the course of multiple days they could go and get as drunk as they wanted”

          … and that will be the perception by others when you have a drunk driver/sexual harassment incident/other natural consequence where this blows up.

          You’re the employer. Your goals are presumably around specific work outcomes that you want to achieve. There’s not really any reason why you need to be creating opportunities for people to get drunk.

          1. Intern Manager*

            Yes that’s a good point. I hadn’t really considered it from this perspective. We have a bit of a crazy work culture. Upper management is kind of insane, so everything below that bonds really closely by… you know… drinking a lot and socialising a lot and drinking even more…

            It’s funny how the company has affected my view on these things, as I didn’t even consider it a weird thing. I’ve been with them for little over a year. I will reflect more on what you said. Thanks for sharing your point of view.

            Oh, for what it’s worth, I’m in Europe in a city with a lot of other major HQ’s for big global players and the drinking and partying culture is about the same for all of these.

            1. Snargulfuss*

              Not only does a heavy drinking culture bring in the risks that Allison listed, but there’s also a good possibility that people who don’t drink (for various reasons) are missing out on networking and bonding opportunities. Obviously this is company culture and there’s nothing illegal about it, but you could be decreasing diversity by creating a culture that certain people are going to opt out of.

              1. Accountant*

                Yes, this! I left a job because they had this culture and I really didn’t fit in! They would frequently go to a bar after work on Fridays and I had zero interest in attending. I liked the work and performed well at it, but it just wasn’t the right culture.

                1. Elizabeth West*

                  Yes, and in some companies you can go and not drink, but in others, they expect it and hassle you if you don’t. (We’ve talked about this here before, I recall.)

            2. Telly*

              I think your boss way overreacted. Accidentally oversleeping and coming in late one day is not an instantly fire-able offense for an otherwise strong performer. You gave the interns blanket permission to get drunk and then are penalizing one of them for getting drunk (and thus being hungover). Seems like a weird way of bating the interns to mess up, and then punishing them for it.

            3. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

              Yeah, I read it exactly as Alison did. I thought it was much more problematic that your company was telling people to get “as drunk as they wanted” as long as they showed up the next morning than the fact that an intern came in super late. Y’all kind of set the intern up to fail by saying “feel free to get drunk!” but then suggesting that the “limit” was coming to work on time.

              What your company said is very different from saying, “We’re all adults who trust you not to drink so heavily that you jeopardize your employment and attendance the next day.” And to be honest, if that’s the message you want to convey, you actually don’t have to say anything about the open bar event (although it may make sense to say something to interns, as they may not have as much exposure to professional norms regarding open bar events). Anyone with a shred of professional knowledge should know that you do not get sh*t-face drunk at a company event with an open bar. When I was in college and law school, the number one example of how to get fired from an internship was to fail to exercise professional discretion at a company-sponsored event with free alcohol.

              I also want to gently encourage you/your company to really reconsider the fact that people bond by drinking heavily (binge-drinking?) and then drinking more. Especially because this sounds like it happens at least weekly, and sometimes more often than that. Although you’re in Europe, what you’re describing is also super common in Silicon Valley among a certain subsector of start-ups. Relying on drinking is really exclusionary, particularly for anyone who: (1) is a recovering alcoholic; (2) is the relative of anyone with substance abuse problems; (3) is a member of a religion that prohibits alcohol consumption; (4) is wary about blurring the line between professional relationships and partying with coworkers; (5) does not enjoy hanging out with drunk people.

              Overemphasizing drinking events effectively discriminates against all of those categories of people (which is a non-exhaustive list). I’m confident that there are fantastic people that a company would want to have who fit into those four categories.

              In light of the messages your employer put out there, and its drinking/partying culture, I think your response to your intern was appropriate. I think firing that person would have been unreasonable in light of the context.

              1. Humble Schoolmarm*

                Thank you for 4 and 5! I am a light social drinker (1 drink is typical, two is nice, three is An Event) and I hate that that the drunker some people get, the less tolerance they have for anyone who isn’t completely sloshed. I’ve had more work parties fall to after school special levels of peer pressure. “C’mon Humble Schoolmarm, why aren’t you drinking! Loosen up! Everyone else is having fun! Get this girl another drink!” Arrrgh! Drives me insane! I can’t be the only person in the world who likes to be out late and dance but doesn’t like to get wasted!

                1. Ann O.*

                  You are not. I HATE being drunk. I love to dance. Tipsy can be fun in the right set of circumstances, but drunk just makes me feel sick and sloppy. Which is the opposite of fun.

            4. Jeff*

              Work hard, play hard cultures can be very productive. In the short term. With crazy management cultures and practices, corporate missions, objectives and goals can sometimes take a backseat to the crazy culture ethos. If booze is available at work, or during the work day, this sends a very poor message and creates an unhealthy atmosphere. Even suggesting at the after hours event to get as drunk as you want is inadvisable, professionally and personally.
              I have seen firsthand how cultures like this create alcoholics and burn good productive people out of a career.
              A far better message to send to the interns during a social event would be to enjoy yourself responsibly.

            5. Observer*

              Since you are in Europe, I imagine you have not been following the travails of Uber. I suggest you do. What you describe could have come straight out of their playbook. And, while drinking was not their only problem, the “work hard play hard” line you used comes tight out of the same mindset and almost inevitably runs into seriously problematic behavior.

              Think about this – you told a bunch of interns – people who are learning how to navigate the working world- to go get drunk and then you want to fire one otherwise well performing intern for the crime of forgetting to plug in his phone.

              And, yes, you did tell them to get drunk. At this age and experience level it would not be at all surprising if he misjudged his ability to handle alcohol far more severely. But ultimately, all he misjudged was his ability to properly perform all the little tasks that come with preparing for bed.

            6. Optimistic Prime*

              I work at a very large tech company as well…and this is weird. I’ve definitely been to lots of events with free alcohol, but there has NEVER been any encouragement to get “as drunk as we want” (and usually the alcohol is just beer, cider, and wine, no hard liquor.)

              1. tigerStripes*

                I work at a tech company in the US, and although sometimes there is limited free alcohol at parties, I’m fairly sure the bartenders have been told to cut people off before they’ve had too much. I think the main concern is to prevent drunk driving and probably also to prevent people from doing things that will make the next work day uncomfortable.

          2. Amber T*

            Yeah that’s really odd language to include. We have events that are open bar (at the expense of the company) so in theory we could get as drunk as we wanted… but there’s never been any communication saying “drink all you want and get drunk, as long as you’re able to work the next day!”

            Part of entering the adult/professional world from a college party age is realizing access to unlimited or large amounts of alcohol =/= let’s get completely wasted and go nuts. So I think you’re right to give the intern another chance, but also scale back on the “drink all you want!” phrasing.

        2. Not a Real Giraffe*

          But these are interns who are still learning the line between “too drunk at a work event” and “my manager told me to get as drunk as I want,” so asking them to inherently know what that line is, is maybe asking too much.

          The point of an internship is to learn things – both professional skills and soft skills. This was a teaching opportunity, and it looks like you used it as such. I’m sure the lesson will not be lost on the late intern.

          1. Queen of the File*

            Yes. My first work party as an intern happened to be my 21st birthday, and, most unfortunately, the first time I learned that I could actually get too drunk to function the next day. The whole world of drinking was quite new to me and I’m still extremely grateful for my boss’ forgiveness.

            1. Optimistic Prime*

              I was just chatting about this with my husband the other day; I don’t think I really learned and understood my full limits wrt alcohol until I was around 25. And even then, your body changes a lot in your early 20s, so intern and early work years are just around the time that you’re learning you can no longer function on 4 hours of sleep after 5 drinks.

          2. Not in US*

            In my first full time job – I was not an intern, I attended a work event with free, unlimited alcohol and I drank too much. I didn’t make it to breakfast the next day (It was a business meeting / awards thing with a business casual, come and go breakfast in the morning and I was expected to be there). I didn’t make it through check out from the hotel on time. A maid woke me up when she tried to come in and clean the room. I was SO embarrassed. Thankfully my bosses were great about it – but I had to sweat it out the rest of the weekend until I saw them on the Monday. I never did that again. It is easy when you’re young to misjudge – especially with a heavy drinking culture and my workplace was.

        3. Hey Karma, Over here.*

          I’m reading it the way AAM does. I read it as challenging the interns to push as hard as they can alcohol-wise to prove they have the stuff to show up and work the next day.

          1. Snark (formerly Liet)*

            Or, at the very least, there’s a competitive angle to binge-drinking that could have resulted in the interns trying to drink each other under the table.

          2. ByteTheBullet*

            Exactly, and that kind of attitude irks me so much. You’re obligated to participate AND obligated to prove that you’re made of stern stuff and can work while hungover/intoxicated. No thanks.

        4. Friday Fries*

          “We told our team repeatedly over the course of multiple days they could go and get as drunk as they wanted” – that’s WAY past trusting them to be professional and into encouraging excessive drinking. That’s pretty poor judgement on your company’s part, frankly. If you tell people they can get drunk at work events you really shouldn’t be surprised when they do.

          It sounds like your company has a culture that encourages this, and it might be good to teach your interns more appropriate behavior instead.

        5. Emma*

          I mean, this line stood out to me: “We told our team repeatedly over the course of multiple days they could go and get as drunk as they wanted.”

          Unlimited alcohol also seems like a possible contributing factor, but even with that, I would shy away from telling interns to get as drunk as they want. I think I’d say something more like, “There’s a work event on Friday. Alcohol will be served, but please use your judgment as this is a work event, and you’ll be expected to keep normal hours the next day.”

          1. NPOQueen*

            I like this. When I was an intern, I couldn’t figure out where the line was. Some coworkers got really drunk, others less so, but no one called out the really drunk ones. As a young person, I didn’t know it was because they could shake it off and come to work the next day, nor did I know that the company put up with some people because they were high performing. It’s easy to say a VP can do what he wants, but why can Manager A come in late when Manager B doesn’t get the same leeway.

            OP, I think you did well to tell your intern the boundary, but also, I think you need to teach them that you have a very lax culture, and lay out base expectations. What happens if they go to a more conservative company? If they have a baseline standard, they’ll know when and how they toe the line. It’ll be better for them in the future, especially if they don’t end up in a tech job.

            1. Snark (formerly Liet)*

              There’s also a question of professional capital. An intern has none. If the VP of Rocking Out With One’s Genitalia Out comes to work popping ibuprofin like jellybeans and whimpering at the sight of bright lights, he can probably get away with it.

              1. Falling Diphthong*

                There’s also a question of professional capital. An intern has none.

                This is a really good point, and part of teaching them what are professional norms that might differ from university norms.

              3. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                That is definitely true. But it’s also worth noting that even folks with a lot of professional capital (like the VP of ROWOGO) can lose it by being stupid drunk in public. If clients, partner organizations, or direct reports see someone who routinely fails to draw the limit on their level of drunkenness, it can eviscerate confidence in that person’s judgment and authority.

                … says someone who just received a staff complaint about an Exec Director getting so drunk on his birthday that he literally fell in the gutter, smashed his face, and had to be taken to the ER.

        6. Newby*

          If the goal is to trust them to use their judgement and behave professionally then instead of saying “get as drunk as you want, just make sure to show up on time tomorrow” you actually say “There is an open bar at this event which you are free to take advantage of. You are expected to show up on time tomorrow so I’ll trust you to use your own judgement.” The first phrasing implies that they are expected to get drunk the second implies that while no one will police their drinking, they do need to remember that they are at a work event.

          1. BF50*

            I really like this phrasing. I would probably add a line acknowledging that others will be actually drunk, but that doesn’t mean you are not at a work event.

        7. Tracy*

          I don’t agree with you that encouraging drinking to excess is showing trust in the employees abilities to behave like professional adults because a professional adult should know his or her limits. But I do agree that one stupid mistake shouldn’t sink an otherwise good intern.

        8. Snark (formerly Liet)*

          So you “work hard, play hard” and you have really interesting Friday evenings, and you tell them “they could go and get as drunk as they wanted, as long as they showed up between 9 and 9.30 the next day” and then you’re surprised when they take you at your word?

          I mean, yeah, intern was unprofessional and irresponsible, as interns can be, but a professionally inexperienced person is doesn’t have the context to understand that they’re expected to get unbelievably cheerful and stumbly but stop short of barfing in the lobby plants and passing out until early afternoon. And if they’re college-age interns, that’s what they do when they drink anyway.

          Personally, I think drinky work parties are pretty unprofessional as a general practice, and I’m kind of aghast that your employer sponsors them. I’ve never worked anywhere that organized anything harder-core than the occasional after work happy hour where they paid for a plate of nachos. If your interns are confused about professional norms working at a company that provides unlimited booze and tells them to get hammered, I don’t think that’s 100% on them.

        9. kittymommy*

          I see it as encouraging, fwiw. This isn’t something that should need to be said to any adult. Also, I think it sets a bad precedent for any future work expectations for them as it is highly unlikely behavior like that would be okay in many work places, even those with an open bar.

        10. Marzipan*

          I definitely also read this as encouraging people to get drunk, rather than reminding them to use their judgement. And, as someone who basically doesn’t drink, I’d point out that it’s also rather distancing language for anyone in my position. ‘Alcohol will be served, please use your judgement’ kind of wording wouldn’t concern me at all; ‘Go and get as drunk as you want’ wording sounds as though I’m expected to get drunk.

          1. SarahTheEntwife*

            Yeah, as someone who occasionally has a cider with dinner, this pretty much conveys “this will be full of rowdy drunk people and you are Not A Good Cultural Fit if that doesn’t sound like a good time to you”.

        11. Joie De Vivre*

          “We told our team repeatedly over the course of multiple days they could go and get as drunk as they wanted…”

          Count me as someone who views that as encouraging people to get drunk at work events.

          Off topic a little bit – but two of my son’s friends were killed by a drunk driver during his freshman year of college. Even your statement “have the judgment not to get too drunk” bothers me.

          How did they get home?

          1. M*

            If they live in a big city, public transit and Uber/Lyft are easy options. Even drunk, I can call a Lyft and go right home.

            1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

              But it’s still a legitimate concern. Joie is suggesting that the marker of “don’t get too drunk” is not “be able to show up tomorrow AM” but also “don’t hurt other people or put yourself or others at risk the night before.”

          2. Queen of the File*

            For anyone reading this who might find it useful, our company used to reimburse taxis home for everyone or organized car service after these events & actively encouraged everyone to take advantage.

          3. Iris Eyes*

            And as a few people I know have found out, how did they get to work in the morning? (Binge drinking can easily leave you too drunk to drive even after sleeping for 6 or so hours)

        12. Gaia*

          My company often has alcohol at events. Because we trust our employees to behave as adults. We would not – ever – tell people they can get “as drunk as they like” because that is unprofessional and would be unacceptable. Your company encouraged this behavior. Yes, the interns should have known better, but part of having interns is teaching them professional norms and your company failed at that.

        13. Optimistic Prime*

          Great for working adults who have some years of work experience and knowledge! Bad for interns. If you were to do it, I would do it during a time of year that you don’t have interns around.

        14. neverjaunty*

          Reminding people over multiple days that they can drink a lot for free does not sound like “encouraging” or “work hard play hard”. Bluntly? It comes across as “we all drink way too much, and we want you to join in so we feel comfortable doing so.”

          That’s not the message you want to send.

        1. SaturnRed*

          I took this to be “We’re not going to look down on you or fire if you get drunk, but you still need to be professional”, i.e. “Drink as much as you want, but don’t behave badly or show up late tomorrow.” I actually found it kind of reassuring, like, “Oh, okay, I can have three drinks and be really chatty and no one is going to think poorly of me for doing that.” “Get as drunk as you want” means “get as drunk as you feel comfortable doing” not “Get plastered immediately!”

          1. Snark (formerly Liet)*

            These are interns, which are typically college students or very recent grads. “Get as drunk as you want” might mean “get as drunk as you feel comfortable doing,” but my wager is that they feel pretty comfortable getting pie-eyed schwasted because that’s how college social drinking goes.

            1. SaturnRed*

              I admit, I never got drunk in college, so my take on this might be skewed. If I’d gone to work event where there was drinking, I probably would have abstained unless someone told me I could drink as much as I wanted. Then I’d feel better about having a drink or two, knowing that others were likely to get buzzed.

              1. Snark (formerly Liet)*

                I’m the same, but I’ve always been a “wow, this double IPA has a delightful hop character” kind of drinker rather than a “If I do not wake up without pants and in someone else’s yard, I have dishonored the graves of my fathers and the temples of my gods” kind of drinker. That said, there’s a lot of college drinkers who binge four nights a week.

              2. De Minimis*

                When I was in college, I would have overdone it at an open bar, and it would have been even worse if I’d been told it was okay to do it so long as I made it in to work the next morning.

            2. BF50*

              Agreed. That might be they way you interpret it mid career, but at 22, fresh out of college, the interpretation is probably different.

              1. AfterBurner313*

                My 22 year old nephew would have read office memo that like Belushi in the movie “Animal House”, “WOOT! PART-TAY!”.

                I had to actually tell him drinking does not equal drink until you can’t walk. Smart kid. No common sense.

          2. Intern Manager*

            Yes, this was the underlying intention, but I find it very enlightening that hardly anyone else seems to interpret it like this. I suppose my manager’s wording was more something like ‘I don’t care what you do, you can get sh** faced drunk for all I care, but I want you at your desks between 9 and 9.30’.

            That doesn’t make it much better, honestly. I am very interested in reading all these responses and hopefully calibrate my ‘work-toxicity-meter’ a bit more to ‘functional’ instead of ‘alcoholic’.

            1. Snark (formerly Liet)*

              That’s how you and I would interpret it, but I think interns just needed a bit more context.

            3. Morning Glory*

              I think you actually don’t want them getting sh** faced though, right? Apart from the other concerns Alison mentioned, that level of drunk would mean that even the interns that manage to show up to work on time won’t be functioning.

              Why not say ‘nobody would mind if you have a few drinks/enjoy yourself but it’s mandatory to be at work between 9 and 9:30’? That puts the emphasis on what you actually want to communicate, that they need to show up on time regardless of how much they drink.

              1. AfterBurner313*

                Interns are usually just barely 20 something’s, sometimes with marginal common sense and judgement.

                When Ivy or Ivan Intern winds up ER from the stupid human tricks drinking challenge, I would not want to be fielding a phone call from Mommy Helicopter Bear why you basically green lighted them to get hammered.

                Because that’s exactly what little intern will tell Mommy Bear.

                Not enough Xanax on the planet to deal with that swarm of hornets of fun.

                All you need is one little charmer to wind up with alcohol poisoning…it is so not worth an open bar.

                I can’t even recently remember a company/charity event having an open bar, unless its the $500+ plate/donation deals. No one is power slamming Jeager at those.

                1. Observer*

                  You know what? It’s not just Mommy Helicopter. It’s going to be ANY mama bear on the planet. I mean, I’m someone who expects a 20-something to behave with some awareness and responsibility. But who in their right mind tells a young person who is calibrating their expectations “you can get falling down drunk, for all I care. The only thing that matters is that you show up the next day on time. Oh, and take advantage because we’re paying.”

                  This is not just green lighting. I’m going to point out something else. In the US, if one of these interns (or even other staff) caused damage, hurt someone or even, heaven forbid, killed someone on their drunken way home or to work the next morning, the company would ABSOLUTELY carry liability for this. That’s in addition to all of the issues that Alison mentioned.

                  OP, I’m glad you are re-calibrating YOUR expectations. This IS going to come back to bite someone. It’s not “if”, it’s “when”.

                2. Optimistic Prime*

                  It’s not even just the Mama Bear. Tech journals and even regular newspapers salivate over the idea of doing exposes of tech company culture these days. An irritated enough parent could tip off some journalist who then writes an article about the Drinking Culture at Hooli. (Or, god forbid, something bad happens…then you have a field day!)

                3. Observer*

                  @Optimistic Prime – if something bad happens, it’s not going to be just the journalists. In the US, at least, this kind of thing would be huge liability.

            4. NPOQueen*

              I think the manager’s wording works (somewhat) for experienced workers, who will understand that they can do what they want as long as it doesn’t affect their work. But for interns, that context is missing. Even if they understand the words, the underlying meaning (both for the present and how they’re viewed in the future) isn’t there. At your company, would it be okay for interns to get massively drunk at every party as long as they came to work the next day? Would that reflect badly on them when it comes time to be hired full-time? Would your boss pick an intern with a bit more restraint if that were the only differentiating factor? Interns don’t yet understand that perception, whether right or wrong, matters long-term.

            5. Becky*

              I’ve spent my entire career working in software, just-after-the-startup phase companies. There is definitely an office culture that involves drinking in this type of work environment (i.e. the communal refrigerators contain beer and wine, employees buy supplies for the hard liquor cabinet together, all company outings involve company-purchased alcohol). However, in all of these companies, the explicit language used by managers and C-level executives is always along the lines of, “Yes, there is alcohol. Yes, we all want to have a lot of fun. Yes, this is still a work event, you are still a professional, and workplace policies apply to your behavior even though we’re off the clock. You’re expected to be at your desk no later than 30 minutes after your normal arrival time tomorrow and you’re expected to be as productive as you would be on any other day.”

              Based on your posts, Intern Manager, I suspect your calibration of what’s normal regarding workplace drinking is skewed. Especially when you’re managing interns, it’s important to keep this in mind – if they leave your company for another company in your industry, these experiences could cost them some serious professional capital.

            6. Bagel Lover*

              At the start of my job they bring all of the fresh-out-of-college new hires to a central city for 2-3 months of training. While there the company would organize and pay for a few after work events, usually at a bar or fun restaurant.

              There were incredibly serious and stern conversations before each event about drinking and behavior expectations. I remember being surprised that they had to be so direct about it (since I thought it was obvious that you still needed to be professional) but I think the company rightly thought that instead of assuming people knew how to behave, they’d just be very clear and upfront. The comments usually went something like: “The drinks and food will be on the firm at our event tonight. We want you to have a good time and socialize with each other and senior leaders that will be attending. Though we definitely promote having fun and getting to know each other, this is still an extension of the workplace. You are expected to be at work tomorrow on time and be able to fully function. We trust you to know yourself and your limits when we’re at the event tonight.”

            7. Jaydee*

              It’s a matter of life experience and knowing what the unspoken expectations are behind the words. Interns are usually college students or recent grads, so they are both fairly new to the world of drinking (legally, at least) and to the world of professional expectations. If you’ve been working there for a while, you know how much you can drink and still be able to function at the appropriate level. Your interns don’t. And it sounds like your boss has forgotten that there ever was a time when she didn’t know those things and can’t imagine why the interns don’t know it too.

            8. Dee*

              Thanks for being open-minded and taking everyone’s comments into account.

              I have never been much of a drinker, but I don’t think anyone should ever be that drunk at a work event. I know it happens, but it just seems like a recipe for disaster. There have definitely been letters here about how someone got drunk at the company part and did something/said something stupid, and are now worried about losing their jobs. And beyond that, there are safety considerations that others have mentioned.

              Yes, the intern should have had better judgment, but you guys left the door wide open and stood on the other side of the door, beckoning him to come in. All he did was walk in.

            9. LBK*

              Once when a friend in another department came to get me from my desk so we could go out for drinks after work, my manager happened to be there and she jokingly said “I just need him coherent by 10am tomorrow morning,” so I can kind of see this line of thinking. But I’m an established professional with a good reputation and relationship with that manager, not an intern who’s likely already embroiled in college partying culture and who potentially lacks a good grasp on reading between the lines. To some extent, being an intern is about taking everyone at their word because you don’t have much experience to tell you otherwise and you don’t have much latitude to do your job the way you see fit. If someone tells you you can run wild at a company party, you’re probably going to interpret that pretty literally. Also for what it’s worth, when I was in college with very limited disposable income an open bar was like a gift from heaven, so you can bet I’d probably have taken full advantage if my boss had repeatedly told me it was acceptable to do so.

          3. Amber T*

            As a young professional who’s been in the work force for a few years, I can read it that way too. But as an intern who’s still figuring out professional norms, I can see where the miscommunication happened.

          4. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

            Eh, I don’t find it reassuring, and I suspect that that’s not how the interns heard that statement (and honestly, I think a lot of experienced working adults would not interpret the statement as “it’s ok to get tipsy, and we won’t judge you!”).

            I think it’s weird anytime an employer suggests that it’s ok to get sh*t-faced, so long as you’re reasonably professional the next AM. Under most professional norms, it’s not appropriate to be that drunk at a work event, regardless. That’s something that the interns should be learning from their employer, but instead, the employer is saying things to the effect of “get sh*t faced drunk for all I care; just be functional the next morning.” That’s not helping the interns develop a sense of what’s appropriate or inappropriate in the workplace. And if employees are frequently getting sh*t-faced drunk, I think that’s alarming, as well, for the reasons Alison has mentioned.

            1. neverjaunty*

              Especially when the employer repeatedly encourages them to get sh*tfaced over multiple days. The message then isn’t ‘we like drinking’, it’s ‘we *expect* you to get hammered’.

      3. New Bee*

        Yeah saying, “Get as drunk as you want” specifically, as opposed to “Have a good time” or “Enjoy yourself”, says some not-great things about the office culture. Interns are the last people who need to be taught that getting blotto at work events is OK as long as you show up on time the next day.

      4. Seal*

        Since internships are supposed to give students (I’m assuming these are students) real-life work experience, it stands to reason that part of that is teaching them how to behave in the workplace. That includes social events as well. On the one hand, you did give them permission to get “as drunk as they wanted”, so in a sense they were more or less following directions. On the other hand, is that really what you want to teach your interns about how to behave at workplace-sponsored social events? That type of behavior may well get them fired in the real world.

        As far as the intern who showed up at 1:30PM, since you describe him as an otherwise hard worker I wouldn’t consider this a fire-able offense, given the circumstances. And I wouldn’t be so quick to give intern 3 a pass either, particularly since you came down hard on intern 4. In my misspent youth I remember calling in at least once with “food poisoning” when in actuality I was badly hung over. I was super-reliable otherwise and hard-working otherwise myself, so of course they believed me. Little did they know!

        You might consider sitting all of your interns down and discuss how to handle themselves at future work-related events with unlimited alcohol. Getting as drunk as you want is definitely not good advice.

      5. Really*

        Even my 21 year old daughter knows this is not something that is going to turn out well for everyone. She had something similar occur on a college trip for class. There is always at least one who will drink too much. Remember this people may legally be adults but they are not always capable of making adult decisions.

        1. Snark (formerly Liet)*

          Yep. As Alison noted above, this is a few tequila shots away from a DUI, a sexual harassment/assault case, alcohol posoning, a serious injury, and then Everybody’s Gonna Have a Bad Time.

    2. ZSD*

      What kind of company specifically mentions to people that they can “get as drunk as they want”?
      I wouldn’t end the internship over this. I’d sit down with intern 4 and explain why this is not professional behavior and that it shouldn’t be repeated in other work places. But then I’d talk with all your interns and apologize for telling them they could get drunk and let them know that *that* isn’t professional behavior, either, and it’s not something they should expect elsewhere. Part of the point of an internship is for the employer to model professional behavior to the intern, and they need to know that it’s not normal for employers to be encouraging them to get drunk.

      1. Snark (formerly Liet)*

        It’s not uncommon in the tech world and other startup-y industries dominated by young educated males who think they’re changing the world.

        1. Kyrielle*

          But it’s also not guaranteed. I’ve worked for medium and large tech companies, not startups, but getting drunk at a work event was not something that would fly (unless maybe you were the CEO, but even then, not all of them).

          You can’t know where the interns will go in life, so making it clear to them that getting drunk is acceptable *for this company* and may be acceptable at others, but would be enough to call your judgement into doubt or even get you fired at some other companies, would be good. They don’t need to be told “never get drunk” so much as “be aware that at some companies, this would be a very bad idea – make sure you know the company culture first”.

        2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          Yes, and it’s a real problem. Many of those start-ups are now facing significant complaints regarding a predatory culture that enables things like sexual harassment. I find it ridiculous that those companies think “bro culture” is somehow a good thing, or a sign of coolness, and only back off on it after already creating a significant headache for their lawyers.

            2. Observer*

              Yeah, but anyone who thinks that “toe stepping” should be one of a finite list of “core company values” doesn’t care about the headaches to employees. Not every bro culture SAYS this as blatantly as Kalanik at Uber, but they sure as anything act it.

              None of the high flyers who are getting pushed out even thought of apologizing, much less changing, till things started blowing up in their faces.

      2. Job Huntress*

        As others have said, tech companies, but also professional services & finance: consulting, investment banking, private equity / venture capital, maybe big law…industries with a large analyst/associate class of overworked young people who will take any opportunity to let loose on the company’s dime. I left consulting recently and OP’s situation sounds exactly like something that would (and did) happen at my old company.

    3. Falling Diphthong*

      Why was this on Wednesday and not Friday?

      And I think both you and your manager have suggested acceptable consequences, tilting toward yours for a first offense for someone who was otherwise a reliable employee who does good work. It’s not bad for him to learn now and young that getting really drunk and forgetting to set an alarm and not calling in and being unreachable and not showing until 4 hours late–or just a subset of those–can get you fired. Even by people who were telling you all through the preceding week how totally wasted you could get at the work event, no consequences.

      1. Intern Manager*

        Good question, the same one everyone’s been asking… :) My guess would be cost. Friday venues are 3 times more expensive than Mon-Wed.

        1. The Other Dawn*

          Maybe a good thing to do would be to suggest a limited-time open bar. As in, open bar from 7pm to 9pm, and then it converts to a cash bar. That would save the company some money and hopefully cut down on the drinking. A friend of mine is All Over It when there’s an open bar, whether it’s work or her personal life, and it’s pretty much a license to get as sh!tfaced as she can for free. Being college-aged interns (I assume), they’re likely thinking, “Unlimited free booze!”, as well as, “I can get totally hammered! My manager said so!” I think it should have been explicitly said to them that yes, they can drink as much as they want, but it means knowing their limits, keeping in mind it’s a work event, and being a fully functioning adult the next day. Perhaps what was told to them wasn’t explicit enough. (Or it was and they just didn’t care.)

      2. Becky*

        I’ve also seen it used a type off employer butt-covering – if everyone has to show up to work the next day, then employees will regulate their behavior accordingly. In reality, it doesn’t work.

    4. Triangle Pose*

      My opinion is that you should not be telling anyone, especially not interns to “go and get as drunk as you want” at a big company sponsored party with open bar and unlimited alcohol and definitely not REPEATEDLY over the course of MULTIPLE DAYS!

      I urge you to see that these interns who are newer to the workforce and have an unbalanced power dynamic with the rest of the team (not to mention with you and your boss) saw this as MAJOR pressure to drink and participate in the work culture. It’s also likely they don’t have as much adult experience drinking and with the added pressure, didn’t know their limits or act accordingly. This was a serious mistake on the company’s part and I would sit the interns down and explain to them your mistake, apologize and everyone should put this behind them.

    5. My name is Inigo Montoya*

      Since your interns are (I assume) lacking in other jobs to compare this experience to, you would do them all a favor (all six since I’m guessing they talk) to let them know – this is NOT normal. In most companies, getting drunk with your co-workers is never a good idea, no matter how good the open bar is. You would be wise to share both your office norms, where they didn’t meet those expectations, and how most other offices approach alcohol in general.

      And for what it’s worth – maybe consider revisiting the practice of encouraging people to get drunk at corporate events? It’s not going to end well.

      1. Trout 'Waver*

        It is normal in some areas and in some professions. Definitely not normal in most, though.

        1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          It’s not really normal for a company-sponsored event, though. It certainly happens in tech start-ups, and there are definitely companies/sectors where there’s a culture of socializing outside of work with your coworkers and getting drunk (law, investment banking/finance). But the vast majority of companies do not endorse or encourage getting drunk on company time at a company event.

          1. Lucie*

            It absolutely is the norm in some company sponsored events in some cultures. I work at a Japanese company and the American’s who don’t make the effort to hang at the drinking parties and socialize don’t get the same respect as those who do. Is it fair? Not so much, but it’s a serious cultural thing that’s not going to change even though they aren’t in Japan.

            1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

              I feel like you’re not reading what I said? I didn’t say it’s not a norm in any company. I said it’s not normal for the vast majority of employers in most industries (not all industries) and that it’s out of step with prevailing norms in the economy as a whole. And I’ve provided examples of industries or companies where it is considered normal to promote heavy drinking through company-sponsored events.

              If 95% of companies do not sponsor or participate in Mad-Men-style drinking/partying culture, it’s helpful for people who work at the remaining 5% of companies to know that they are out of step with other companies, as a whole.

              1. Trout 'Waver*

                It’s not really useful to say it’s not normal overall, though, if it is normal in your industry.

                2. LBK*

                  But it’s better to err on the side of assuming your company is not one of those places where it’s normal because you’re more likely to be right and if you do turn out to be wrong, the consequences are likely to be less detrimental than erring in the other direction. I’d rather be the guy who’s seen as not a team player because I didn’t get smashed than the guy who’s seen as an unprofessional mess because he got blackout while everyone else nursed one drink the whole time.

                3. Myrin*

                  Of course it is. If you know that something that makes you miserable (for example; it could also be something you simply don’t like, that isn’t a good fit for you, etc.) isn’t normal overall/simply “what the world is like”, you now know that you can leave and aren’t likely to run into it again somewhere else. It can also serve as a reality check to reassure you that you aren’t the odd man out. Just in general, once you have that knowledge, you can act accordingly. But someone who doesn’t know that might resign themselves to having to live with it forever or thinking that they’re just whiny and don’t have any right to have problems with it, which is usually not the case.

              2. Anonny*

                Agree. And there’s a big difference between attending and socializing in an industry (which can be pretty normal) and getting sh*t faced/black out drunk. I work out politics/government and all one had to do is attend a legislative session to know aides can drink. A lot. But the ones who have been around know where the line is

            2. neverjaunty*

              If all those other companies jumped off a bridge, should OP’s company jump off a bridge too?

    6. The Rat-Catcher*

      Interns tend to need things spelled out a little more clearly than what it sounds like they were here. It might have been worth an extra conversation with them to let them know that yes, they can drink, but as they are not known quantities, it would be wise for them to err on the side of restraint. (And that this should probably be the norm for any internship question that they have – possibly inserting “professionalism” in place of “restraint,” in other situations.)

      1. Newby*

        I think this is what it really comes down to. You can’t trust interns to use their professional judgement because they don’t really have any yet (or at least it has yet to be calibrated correctly). You need to be very specific about what is and isn’t acceptable, especially when they are put in a social context where they may not intuitively know that they are still expected to act professionally.

      2. kb*

        And telling interns, who are probably young and not yet susceptible to the crippling hangovers of adulthood, that all they have to worry about is making it in on time the next day is really risky. In college I knew people who could be drunk enough to puke on a table and fall asleep in a park, but they’d still be at their 8 am the next morning and be semi-functional. Having some clearer boundaries for level of tipsiness permitted in a professional setting would be very helpful to students.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      This is a case of “drink as much as you want” does NOT mean “drink as much as you want”.

      The employee did what management told him to do. He drank as much as he wanted. Now the boss wants to fire him? Brilliant.

      People tend to go toward what they are told.
      This sounds like there is a lot of pressure in this workplace to drink hard.
      Not my thing.
      It puzzles me though why the company is deliberately trying to increase its health insurance costs by driving unhealthy behaviors.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        The employee did what management told him to do. He drank as much as he wanted. Now the boss wants to fire him? Brilliant.

        He did the opposite of what management told him to do, which was to show up at work between 9:00 and 9:30 the next day.

        (I agree that “drink as much as you want” is encouraging behavior that should not be encouraged, but the intern isn’t under fire for getting drunk, he’s under fire for not showing up afterward.)

        1. Observer*

          But that was an outcome that the boss should absolutely have foreseen. It’s one thing to tell someone with years of experience that the ONE limit on their drinking is that they need to make it into the office the next day. That’s problematic, but at least such a person is likely to know what they need to do to make it happen. And intern? No way. You told them to drink and get passing-out drunk. So they did. They didn’t realize that it might impede their ability to get in the next day? Why would you expect anything differently.

    8. Delta Delta*

      Seems like the intern might’ve had a lapse in judgment in drinking that much, but it also seems unwise to encourage interns to drink as much as they want/can.

    9. CatCat*

      Pretty harsh. Aside from the org’s encouragement of “getting as drunk as you want,” intern 3 is a very high performer and made one mistake with this alarm thing. If anything, I am sure intern 3 has learned that if you’re going to accidentally be very late, just call in sick.

      1. RAM*

        This is exactly what I was thinking. Intern 4’s “food poisoning” was quite possibly a hangover. Both interns 3 and 4 didn’t follow the rule you set. Intern 4 woke up.. felt sick and called in saying he had food poisoning. Intern 3 forgot to set his alarm, woke up late, but went in to work anyways and told you the truth about what happened.

    10. kb*

      I know your intention behind the statement “get as drunk as you want” was not “get plastered y’allllll,” but that may have been how it came across to the interns. I would rethink that phrasing in the future, especially for interns.

      I think you should make it known to the intern that showing up 4 hours late is unacceptable and would easily get him fired from any position, but since he’s an intern and learning you’ll let him off with a warning.

      Also, I know your question was specifically about the tardy intern, but I want to add that heavy-drinking work cultures can end up creating more issues than they do meaningful bonds between coworkers. They also can be more alienating than people think– not just to people who don’t drink, but to good employees who don’t fit into the social scene of the company.

    11. zk*

      If nothing else, they’ve learned the really important lesson that you can’t expect managers to mean literally what they actually say.

    12. JustaTech*

      Here’s another piece of data I’d like before decideing if this is a firing offence: what was intern 4’s attitude when they did show up to work? Panicked and apologetic or totally blase? People do oversleep if their alarm doesn’t go off even when they’re not hungover (although they usually don’t sleep that late); would the intern have risked being fired if he’d overslept badly on a day when there hadn’t been a party the night before?

      And if being late is a firing offence, was that clearly stated at the beginning of the internship?

      Going forward I would tell all the interns to have non-phone alarm clocks so it doesn’t happen again (assume an honest mistake) and then seriously reconsider how you and your boss talk to the interns about drinking.

      1. Anxa*

        This is one of my greatest fears. I’m so scared I’ll have a good job one day and lose it all. My natural sleep cycle skews late and I am completely dependent on alarms

    13. Hannah*

      I feel like if you put the fact that the hangover was from a company event aside — it’s a pretty common occurrence for an intern to oversleep and be late to work during their internship. They should learn from it and never let it happen again because of how embarrassed they are, but sometimes people need to learn that lesson the hard way. I don’t see a first offense here as fireable. I think your manager is being really unrealistic.

    14. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      What’s the basis for the distinction in how y’all treated Intern 3 v. Intern 4? You mentioned Intern 3 is super reliable and hardworking, and Intern 4 is also hard-working. If Intern 4 had called out with food poisoning, would your boss also have wanted to fire him on the spot?

    15. New Bee*

      This actually happened to me once, from the intern’s perspective (I was Intern 2, and “Nina” was Intern 4). Nina actually showed up so hungover she vomited on herself, so our boss sent her home and talked negatively about her to me afterwards.

      From the perspective of a rule-following intern, I understood his frustration but also rolled my eyes internally a bit. The night before, heavy drinking had been encouraged; interns, trainees (this was a teacher preparation program), and managers were blatantly hooking up; and several people underage drinking company-sponsored alcohol. I ended up working for the program later on and the drinking culture persisted and did result in liability (including DUIs and financial audits).

    16. paul*

      Your company told interns to get drunk

      Your company told interns to get drunk

      Your company needs a sanity check. Yikes.

    17. The OG Anonsie*

      Aside from all the stuff mentioned above, I agree with you. Sometimes otherwise reliable and consistent people make mistakes, and giving a warning in those situations to people who have earned it is entirely appropriate.

      Alcohol or no, sometimes people oversleep (however dramatically, I guess when I was younger I could have been dreaming solid past noon and not realized it though that seems like a far away time to me now…) and unless it’s part of a pattern of being unprepared or careless I think cutting folks some slack on rare screwups is the smart thing to do… Particularly for something with as little an impact as being late once on a regular day. Intern or otherwise, cracking down on high performers in these cases is something I only really see in very dysfunctional environments. Nothing is as demoralizing as coming in and giving it all every day, consistently doing a good job, then having management treat you like you’ve betrayed them if you do make a mistake. You gave him a serious warning, he took it the way he should. That seems wholly sufficient.

    18. Optimistic Prime*

      First of all, I don’t know how old your interns are, but at my very large tech company most of our summer interns are < 21. Therefore, I would NOT be throwing a big party with open bar and unlimited alcohol with summer interns at all, much less telling them they could get as drunk as they want! That's a recipe for disaster in so many ways! Not the least of which is that interns – and people in general – tend to post about that kind of thing on social media when they are drunk late at night ("Look at how cool TreeFruit/MacroHard/Hooli is") and all it takes is one journalist/blogger/YouTube personality to make a big deal out of serving underaged interns.

      But I agree with you. Part of being an intern is learning, and people have to remember that often all interns really know of the world is college. Waking up at 1:30 pm after a bender and missing all your morning classes is pretty normal and consequence-free in college. And particularly with the muddiness of big party with an open bar and the encouragement to drunkeness…I'd understand in this particular case if the intern got a bit confused.

      1. Akcipitrokulo*

        In Europe so legal drinking age won’t be 21… they wouldn’t be underage.

    19. OldMom*

      I realize I am late to the party but I am confused about what “as drunk as you want” means. To me, “drunk” is not something that any adult who doesn’t have a drinking problem would ever want to be. Tipsy, tiddly, pleasantly buzzed, mildly lubricated, these are all states that someone might enjoy. To me, “drunk” means staggering, slurred words, inability to remember one’s own actions, poor judgment, dangerous behind the wheel, possibly abusive to loved ones…all undesirables. I am mystified why any employer would encourage or condone “getting drunk.” The term seems synonymous with “had too much to drink.” Unless your company is based in a frat house or 1955, why is the phrase “get as drunk as you want” ever said aloud? And what on earth would it mean when “drunk” is not something anyone (outside of a country music song about trying to forget) would ever want to be? Is it a trick to find out who has a drinking problem?

      1. Toph*

        I think your interpretation of the term is adding more specific connotations than most would assume. To me “drunk” means “intoxicated enough to feel it”. So your list of tipsy, buzzed, mildly lubricated, these are all degrees of drunkenness, most of them mild. Whereas “smashed”, for example, is another that means very drunk. So (while I absolutely agree the choice of phrase “drunk as you want” was not a good idea in this situation, or any work situation), it does not inherently mean falling down drunk or have anything to do with a drinking problem. As drunk as one person wants might be “slightly buzzed” and to another might be “staggering” or anything in between. Certainly the invitation as phrased in general seems to imply heavy drinking was expected at the event, but use of the word “drunk” alone does not inherently imply all the stuff you just listed.

        1. OldMom*

          Ok, I think my biases are showing. Just trying to picture anyone telling me “I got drunk.” The very term seems to imply “I drank too much.”
          I’ve never been in an industry where drinking was allowed much less encouraged so the scenario described reads to me like a nightmarish time warp.
          (Perhaps it’s just a little folk dancing…nothing to be alarmed about.)

        2. Observer*

          Yeah, but “drunk as you want as long as you get into work on time” implies more than “buzzed” or the like. And, the OP actually posted clarification that indicates that OldMom is actually pretty correct – the manager said something like “you can get sh**-faced drunk for all I care”. For anyone who is not familiar with colloquial English usage, that translates to falling down drunk. So, yes, all the things OldMom said.

  6. Nervous Accountant*

    Hi all,

    I need advice on negotiations & maybe just a reality check as well.

    I plan on negotiating a significant pay raise. It’s evaluation time and we get our bonuses (in the form of PTO) and pay raises around this time.

    Right now Im getting paid 48K. I started at $38k 2.5 years ago and received two raises since then during the annual evaluations. I quickly saw that new hires with my background and experience were coming in at 65-68k.

    My range is 60-66. From what I’ve read, I learned that I should talk about what I bring to the table. So far it’s:
    -New accountants w my experience level that I will be training will be getting this amount.
    -I’m a known quantity–I improve every year. SO MANY new hires bailed during tax season, burning bridges–I’ve proved that I won’t do that.
    -Company knowledge–we have a lot of processes that I’ve seen were started.
    -I’m high producing. Each year I’ve increased my output while keeping my hours at a consistent level. Even though the bonus PTO doesn’t reflect this and I understand why, I’m working smarter/harder, not longer hours.
    -I was given addl duties (no formal title just extra work) during tax season and I took those very seriously–got verbal praise from my boss, upper mgmt, and colleagues.
    -Most recently, I’ve helped manager & team leader with new writing materials for the company >> im trustworthy

    Here are my questions:

    Am I on the right track with my points? For the most part I don’t care about what others get paid but I do feel I’m valuable and if the’re willing to hire new people who are unknown and could quit in months/weeks (so many have done that), why not?

    I plan to look through payscale, Glassdoor salary indeed. Reliable? Any other sources I should use to determine the market value of my skills? If it comes up shorter, I’ll adjust my range, but right now 6066 is the range in my head.

    On another note-I’m feeling a little paranoid. My degree isn’t in accounting but english and i have an EA license. For a long time, this never came up, until recently. Recently, a few coworkers started to tease me (not in a bad way) and that doesn’t bother me, and in a more serious way, I’ve helped with writing materials for new projects. It’s just that in the back of my head I have this thought that what if this is an excuse nto to pay me more? It was never an issue but now it is a problem?

    What if they refuse my raise for that reason or any other? I truly don’t want to leave but I don’t want to be taken for granted and lowballed. It would feel like a huge blow to my ego and confidence to be rejected.

    If I take the lower than low end, am I losing face or lack self respect by staying here?

    And this is a little emotional and maybe irrelevant? but 3 years ago I was in a desperate place and I took this with every intention to do better and grow (not to bail at the first opportunity). I’ve written about how I dont’ want to leave, but I feel like it’d be a huge blow to my ego and confidence to be rejected.

    2. Here we go again*

      On your last point, I don’t think it relates to trustworthiness, but I do think it is the strongest point you have. Your English degree, combined with your accounting knowledge and experience makes you so valuable that you have the technical knowledge of accountants with strong writing skills that you add extra value to the company.

      1. SoundtheBell92*

        Go for it! The more reasons you have to quantify the salary the better off you are. I’ve used Indeed & Glassdoor myself. I would recommend that you shoot higher; knowing that you will likely get where you’re shooting for. Good luck!

    3. Senior Staff Accountant (Public Practice)*

      If new hires are coming in at 65-68 to your firm, your range should be 72-78. As you said, you’ve been there for 2 tax seasons, and yes, doing what you do is incredibly valuable. You’ve also acquired a vast amount of client knowledge, which even if well documented, will not be easy to replace.

      I was in a similar situation a couple of years ago – we’re a small firm 2 CPAs, manager, me, 1 staff accountant, 1 bookkeeper, and 2 interns. We brought in another manager (CPA) whose duties and roles were approximately the same as mine, but at double my salary.

      So, I went to lunch with the managing partner, and we chatted. I came away with a 20K pay raise in that year, and 10k a year later. The major difference then was that I didn’t have a professional designation yet and the new manager had 10 years of experience on me. That manager has since left.

      Truth be told, I asked for a cheeky amount, and was told yes. If I’d been told no, I would have seriously considered my options.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      “If I take the lower than low end, am I losing face or lack self respect by staying here? ”
      Just speaking for my own experience. If I catch myself asking that question then I am starting to slide. In a little bit I will get mad at myself for selling me short.

      When all is going well, I do not even think of that question. So the sheer fact that I thought of it indicates the answer is probably yes.

      1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        Exactly this. OP, I suspect you already feel like you would lose self-respect by not asking for the raise, because the significant pay differential signals (to you) that you are not being appropriately valued by your company. I also agree with Senior Staff Accountant that you should look at the market rate for your job with your level of experience—not lowball yourself with the entry-level salary, which would still leave you below-market in terms of compensation. (It’s ok to be paid below-market if you’re ok with it and there are other compensation factors that make it worth it, but it doesn’t sound like that’s the case, here.)

        I don’t think you should feel bad about yourself if they say no, but I do think you should start job searching. Whether they say yes or no does not really have any bearing on whether you are a valuable and marketable person. It says something about the company and its priorities, and you can reject those priorities (and leave) if you feel like they’re out of sync with your own values/priorities.

        tl; dr: Don’t look to your company for validation of your worth; you have to convince yourself that you’re worth it, first, and that should be the case regardless of your company’s decision re: pay.

    5. Friday*

      Check the Robert Half Salary Guide for a gut check – it has market adjustments too, so you can modify whatever the base salary for each position is based on where you’re located.

    6. Amber T*

      Wow I could have written this. I’m making $50k, though the national average is mid $60s and the local average is high 60s/low 70s. I’ve been trying to figure out how to best approach the bosses on this but have been so nervous doing so. Thank you for posting, I’m looking forward to the responses.

      1. Amber T*

        Different field than accounting though, hence the average salary differences. But same boat negotiation wise!

    7. BF50*

      They should pay you more because it would cost the company more to replace you than to give you the raise.
      Not only would they have the increased salary that they would be paying a new hire, but they would also have to added risks of 1) a potential bad hire who leaves quickly or otherwise may need to be replaced, 2) the lost productivity while the new hire is in training, 3) the lost productivity due to the institutional knowledge.

      You hint around this stuff, but i think you should explicitly say it. You have all the reasons why you want more money, but you aren’t specifically saying why it’s in their best interest to pay you more.

      Also, you are undervaluing yourself. You are asking for the new hire wage, not the wage of someone who has performed well for 2 years.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Well the new hire wage is for someone who has a license and has at least 2+ years of experience as I’ve seen, so these aren’t fresh out of college graduates with no experience.

        You hint around this stuff, but i think you should explicitly say it. You have all the reasons why you want more money, but you aren’t specifically saying why it’s in their best interest to pay you more.

        THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SAYING THIS! I think this is what was swimming in my head but I couldn’t really articulate it well. Thank you so much!

        1. BF50*

          Though, below, they rightly point out you need to be careful of your tone, because you want it to be more of a sales pitch than a threat.

    8. Althea*

      “What if they refuse my raise for that reason or any other? I truly don’t want to leave but I don’t want to be taken for granted and lowballed. It would feel like a huge blow to my ego and confidence to be rejected.”
      —
      I once had this conversation with my employer. She at first was saying that they couldn’t afford much in the way of raises. I said, “The question isn’t how much can you pay me. It’s, ‘How much would I have to pay someone else to do the same things?'” Considering I was doing a huge variety of tasks and had lowballed myself when I started there, I knew, and she knew, that a replacement would cost a hell of a lot more than what I was asking. They didn’t meet my full request, but they did come up enough that I stayed.

      So, you don’t have to say the same thing. It can sound like a threat to leave if said in the wrong tone, and a crappy enough employer might not like hearing it. But you should still keep it in your head, especially if you are wavering. It has an official term, actually – BATNA or “Best Alternative to Negotiated Agreement.” If you fail to agree, their BATNA is to pay several thousand more for a less experienced person. Yours is to leave an most likely get paid several thousand more than what you are asking them to do, although it means job searching. Your BATNA is honestly way better than theirs, and that means you have a lot of the leverage. The employer just has to be smart enough to see it. A lot of them are not, and they realize it only after you’ve given notice.

      1. Happy Lurker*

        Yes, exactly Althea. Nervous Accountant…be very conscientious of your tone. As an English Major I know you will be.
        I knew someone that was let go over tone. When push came to shove they were an awesome worker but the attitude killed them.

    9. Nervous Accountant*

      Thank you all, I so appreciate the responses and definitely got a few gems!

      1. Rocky*

        I love your points, but I would not lead with the fact that new hires get paid more. Lead with ‘company knowledge’ and additional duties’.

    10. Former Retail Manager*

      Late to the party, but hopefully you’ll see this. Based on the pay you mention, I assume you are at a mid-size or Big 4 firm in a decent sized metropolitan area….all that said…I’d definitely start interviewing elsewhere. Quite frankly, I’d get out of public accounting entirely if you can. I’ve paid attention to most of your posts (as I’m in accounting as well) and I don’t get the impression that you absolutely LOVE what you’re doing or perhaps don’t love where you are. My apologies if I’m off base in that interpretation of some of your posts. Either way, I’d definitely be 80% toward moving on, whether you stay in public or transition to corporate. Public accounting experience is very desirable on your resume and will certainly be an asset to you. Most of the other accounting folks I’ve known have all put in 3-5 years in public and then transitioned to either corporate or Government, and a couple started their own firms (I don’t recommend that).

      Also, everyone I’ve ever known in public has told me that the partners, and sometimes managers, are typically very well aware of the salaries of those below them. So whoever handles this decision likely won’t be blindsided by your raising this issue. The suggestions of the other commenters are great. However, if you don’t really love the environment/culture, I’d definitely look outside the firm as well and see if it’s time to get a raise and move on to a place where you might be happier. Best of luck and please update us on a future thread.

  7. Junior Dev*

    The question yesterday about writer’s block made me think: how do people in other creative jobs get unstuck? (I’m using the word “creative” very loosely. If your job involves creating something, even if that’s not the primary thing you do, I want to hear from you.)

    I’m a programmer; my current job involves rebuilding an internal website that’s quite unique in what it does, so there are no out-of-the-box solutions to much of what we’re trying to accomplish.

    Here are some things I do when I am having trouble with a technical problem, or am unsure how to approach some feature, and feel stuck.

    * Boring chores like people mentioned–read email, clean desk

    * Go through my open tickets and write updates on them, and make sure their status is accurate. This is sort of a “boring chore” but has the added advantage of sometimes shaking something loose in my brain.

    * Look at a co-worker’s merge request. Usually this is something that interrupts my flow, so it’s nice to get a lot of code review out of the way during slow periods.

    * write up outlines. This usually involves making lists of “what I’ve already done” and “what I still have to do” in a text file. Sometimes I can identify some separate task on the same ticket to switch to for a while; other times, the act of writing it out helps clarify what I should try next.

    * Doing non-coding programming work, either on the current ticket or from the neverending list of stuff I keep meaning to get around to. Writing documentation or comments for my own code. Reading documentation for a software package I’m using. Researching the best approach to use for a given task.

    * Identifying and/or correcting technical debt (stuff like “this section of the code was written in a messy, redundant way” or “this function needs more test coverage”–stuff that wasn’t really done correctly the first time in the interest of getting something done quickly or trying to articulate what we even wanted to do.)

    * Drawing out page mockups by hand. We don’t have official graphic designers for web, or any sort of user interface person, so it generally falls on coders to make those decisions. I don’t mock up everything before building it but sometimes it can help me to get out some colored markers and draw as a way to explore what I want a page to do.

    1. Christy*

      I’m a SharePoint developer. When I’m stuck, I talk to a coworker to bounce ideas off him. (I’d say “her” or “them” but I’m the only woman on my team.) I’ll talk through my problem, and usually a second set of eyes or brain will either help me find the problem or solution or my coworker will have a suggestion I can try. It’s the #1 thing that saves me. I’ve been codeveloping this tool with one coworker and constantly having two sets of eyes has been awesome.

    2. Eric*

      It depends on why I’m stuck Sometimes it’s because I’m trying to do too much at once. In this case I’ll try to identify a very small thing that I can do to move the project forward and set a goal to do just that part.

      If that doesn’t work I’ll sometimes branch with the intention of writing whatever hacky solution comes to mind to solve the problem. It can be freeing to write code that you never intend to ship and it usually gets me back on the right path.

      If none of those work and I’m really truly stuck I’ll start reading documentation to see if I missed something. If that doesn’t help I’m off to find someone to talk the issue over with and see what I can come up with that way.

    3. The Photographer's Husband*

      As a writer, I think of writer’s block as just being a sign that I don’t have enough ‘fuel’ in the creative tank. By fuel, I mean knowledge/research/understanding of whatever it is I’m writing about. So usually my first step is to get a deeper understanding of the product/service/teapot I’m writing about and that will usually open up a few new angles to think about.
      If that doesn’t work and I’m still stuck, I’ll go search out interesting advertising on AdFreak or elsewhere and see what creative solutions others have come up with to complex problems. Usually between those two things, I end up writing something I’m happy with.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Sometimes if I help someone else for a short while, that gives me back my power to think. Incubation time is the time away from a project. Even if we are not consciously thinking about Project we might be incubating ideas subconsciously.

    5. AVP*

      My work involves a lot of little projects,someofwhich are creative and others that involve budgets or paperwork or keeping in touch with clients. I break everything down into small pieces and, when I’m stuck on one, I work on something else for awhile until I have a new idea or fresh eyes. It helps that I think my brain is naturally wired for ADHD so I don’t mind jumping around a lot.

    6. Louise*

      Go for a walk! I do grant writing and some copy writing and when I’m feeling really stuck, moving around can really help. I find when I’m getting a creative block, it’s usually because I’m too in my head, overthinking, anxious, etc. When I work from home, I’ll sometimes even put on really loud music and dance around at my desk to get the thoughts flowing.

    7. sarakg*

      I’m a SF developer, and am the only front-end person at my company, so I end up having to figure out a lot of things that no one else I know has really figured out before. When I’m blocked on something, I like to go for a walk (even just to get a glass of water), or like you said, clean up other tickets/code/etc. Or, you know, scroll through AAM for a while. I was stuck/intimidated by something earlier, and what helped me get started was literally copy-pasting the current file so that if I break anything, I can easily go back and retrieve the working code (or compare the working stuff to what I’m trying to change). We use git (source control), so it would be fine, but somehow the manual way of it really helped me feel more confident with the change.

      Actually, doing things manually, like writing out some pseudo-code or drawing a flow map, those are also really good ways for me to get unblocked on something.

    8. Duck Duck Møøse*

      I’m a programmer/IT person. I sometimes do heavy ‘net surfing, but starting at the point where I’m stuck. I try a websearch, trying to describe the problem, or what I’m trying to do, and see what pops up. Most of the time, I’m not lucky enough to find a solution. What usually happens is the search results will make me curious about something else tangential, so then I go off following links. Often I end up pretty far away from my original problem, but I don’t see it as a waste of time, because I usually end up learning *something*. Then I really see it as time well spent when that “research” experience ends up paying off somewhere down the road, by being related to some later things I’m doing. Synchronicity. :) And the time spent also gets my mind off my original block, because sometimes you can’t move forward because you are just thinking about it too hard/too much, and you need to just stop it for a while.

    9. KAG*

      One of the things I do is print out the code, take it home, and read through it, writing out any corrections or thoughts. I think it’s because I’m using the other side of my brain and changing environments.

    10. LS*

      I’m the user interface person (UX specifically) :D

      If I get stuck on something, I park it for a short while and work on something else // move from whiteboard to paper to digital or vice versa // speak to a colleague to get a new perspective // find a different environment to work in (eg meeting room) // look for examples of how someone else has tackled the same type of problem.

  8. Green Tea Girl*

    How to deal with an obsession with my heel height? I wear heels every day to work when no one else does regularly. I wear dresses and have nice shoes and great legs plus I’m super short so I wear heels to feel good.
    I am constantly fielding comments about my heels. “I don’t know how you wear those every day. I don’t know how you walk in those. I can’t believe you wore those in this weather.”
    Yesterday I wore a kitten heel and it was like a huge deal and excitement how “maybe (I’ll) wear flats next.”
    Anything I can say to stop the excessive shoe shaming?

    1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      I’m 5′, so to reach anything average height I need a few inches. One way I got people to shut up was by taking them off and showing how short I was, then slipped them back on.

      I had my grandboss make a comment that “she didn’t know how I was able to walk in these” so I looked at her and said, “Like this” as I took a few steps ahead. Obviously – this one is dependent on how close you are with your coworkers.

      Other than that, I just shrug it off and say that being 5′ it’s necessary and always have.

      1. Sylvia*

        I looked at her and said, “Like this” as I took a few steps ahead

        This is cracking me up.

        1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

          The woman sitting across from me at the time snorted and said, “Oh, that was good.”

    2. Purple People Eater*

      It’s the awkward pseudo-intimacy of the work place. People want to have something to say to you that shows they “know” you. You wear heels. You must like them and want to talk about them. My favorite color is purple. When I don’t wear it, I get asked, “no purple? guess it’s laundry day!” “Did you BUY that? It’s not purple!” Yeah, I know. Thanks for pointing it out. To. Every. Body

      1. MegaMoose, Esq.*

        Yeah, this. I really don’t think there’s much you can do to stop it. Try and re-frame it in your mind as awkward banter, not obsession or shaming, because I really think it’s the first, not the second.

        1. MegaMoose, Esq.*

          Plus, you note that your legs are a great feature and I assume your shoes are too – it makes sense that people notice and comment. To put aside all humbleness for a moment, I happen to have really great hair, and often get comments on it when I wear it long or in a more creative style. Sometimes it gets kind of tedious to go through the same script, but hey, I’m proud of my hair and it’s nice for people to notice. Just be glad that people don’t randomly touch or grab your shoes (presumably).

      2. k.k*

        All of this.

        I wear skirts to work 95% of the time, because I have yet to find a pair of dress pants that I like. I live in jeans outside of work, but my coworkers don’t know that. I’ve got comments asking if I own pants, ever where them, etc. On the rare super cold winter day I’ll wear pants and get “You’re wearing pants!!!” It was a bit annoying until I changed how I looked at it. It’s basically small talk. They also ask about my pets a lot; not because they think I’m a crazy cat lady, but because that’s just the thing they know about me.

        1. MegaMoose, Esq.*

          I get the skirt thing too! I wear skirts 100% of Monday through Thursdays, and maybe 75% of the time on Fridays. That once a month when I wear jeans someone is almost guaranteed to comment on it.

          1. Jessie the First (or second)*

            Ha – that happened to me today. I wear dresses and skirts 95% of the time. Today, I wore jeans. I walked in the office and instead of “hello” my boss says, in an amazed tone of voice, “Hey! Look at you!”

        2. 2 Cents*

          I admit, I’d totally be that “you’re wearing pants/a skirt” coworker, not out of shaming or anything negative, but because I see my coworkers nearly more than my family, so I notice that Janice in accounting is never in a dress or that Scott in HR is always in a tie (and never a polo).

          I am the coworker who never eats salad in a very-salad-eating office. So when I pull out a random green every 6 months or so for lunch because the stars have aligned, it’s the talk of the lunchroom. Maybe it’s a small office thing? (40 or so people)

        3. The Expendable Redshirt*

          Are we the same person?

          I wear dresses most work days because I can’t find a proper pair of jeans. And I’m also a dedicated cat enthusiast.

          For the OP, this may not be a shoe shaming situation. As others have said, this could be annoying small talk. If shoes are of your defining interests, people may reference that as a topic of conversation. If one of my coworkers wore heels often, I’d be very impressed with their footwear. In any case, how are these scripts?

          Co Worker:“I don’t know how you wear those every day. I don’t know how you walk in those. I can’t believe you wore those in this weather.”
          Answers: “You get used to it/ With practice / They are very comfortable in this weather.”
          Other Answers: “Talking about shoes is boring, how about the dolphin races this weekend?” / “Haha! So funny! I’ve never heard that joke before.” / “Want to try them on?”

        4. Kat*

          At least they aren’t asking if in you’re in one of those ‘religious groups that only wear skirts’. -.- I wear skirts and dresses almost exclusively, and have been asked that multiple times. Even weirder, it’s mostly knee length or above dresses, or fitted ones – like, the complete opposite of ‘modest dressing for religious reasons’.

    3. T3k*

      I’m not sure how they’re saying it, but I know when I say these types of things, it’s not to shame the person but more along the lines of “wow, that’s amazing that you can wear heels everyday/in this weather!” (sort of like the running in heels scene in Jurassic World) On the other hand, if you’re getting these comments on a regular basis, I can see that coming off badly. My approach would probably be direct like “I love wearing heels.” and leave it at that and repeat if necessary. They’ll probably grow tired of it eventually if you keep responding the same way, though might come off as cold, so maybe you could soften it a bit like using a friendly tone or something.

      1. Saturnalia*

        Yep. I stood out in my last office in a handful of pretty noticeable ways, and when I reached the limit of my polite jocular responses, repeating the same boring answer did the trick. Of course by that time I didn’t actually care about social capital or what randos in an office of almost 600 thought of me, so pick a repeatable response that can be warm if you want to stay friendly with the shoe shamers (the term was so perfect lol)

    4. anna green*

      I can’t imagine commenting on the type of shoes someone is wearing, and if I did, it would only be to say they were cute. So it’s totally weird that people keep doing that. I wouldn’t even mention height, who’s business is it why you are wearing what you are wearing. I would use the scripts that Alison has mentioned in the past when people comment on things that are none of their business. “why do you keep asking about that” “its weird you care so much about my shoes” and such and such.

      1. Snark (formerly Liet)*

        I love the question approach. “So why do you care so much about my shoes?” “Why do you keep asking me about my shoes?” “Are my shoes bothering you for some reason?”

    5. Solidus Pilcrow*

      For commenters you are close to (i.e., work friends), you could try the “you keep commenting, can you drop it” speech to them. (Check the archives for any other examples of “my co-worker/boss keeps commenting on my clothes/food/appearance/bathroom breaks”, the basic pattern is pretty much the same.)

      Everyone else (or if you don’t want to do the “drop it” speech) gets either ignored or a breezy dismissal (or humorous/smartass dismissal if you’re feeling up to it):

      I don’t know how you wear those every day. —
      * I don’t either! They just appear there every morning!
      * By putting them on one foot at a time.
      * Eh, you get used to ’em.
      * Huh.

      I don’t know how you walk in those. —
      * By putting one foot in front of the other.
      * Eh, you get used to it.
      * Hmmm.

      I can’t believe you wore those in this weather. —
      * I’m not having any problems with them.
      * They work for me.
      * Whatever.

      Maybe you’ll wear flats next. —
      * Maybe I won’t!

    6. Fiennes*

      The issue may not be so much the heel height, more the divergence from company dress norms. Our culture specializes really high heels–anything more than about 3 1/2″ or so–and if you’re going over that, the shoes aren’t going to read as “businesswear” in every setting. Your office appears to be one where they come across as a deliberate fashion statement instead. If this is the case, all you can do is keep your appearance professional (and maybe otherwise fairly conservative?) and wait for your shoes to become accepted just as something you do.

      1. WellRed*

        I kind of wondered this, too. Some shoes are just sooooo high or the style is just a bit outside what I consider office appropriate. Otherwise, yeah, this must be really old to listen to, OP.

    7. Triangle Pose*

      Busybody: “I don’t know how you wear those every day.
      You: “I love them! Isn’t it crazy how different shoe tastes can be?” Breezily walk away.

      Busybody: “I don’t know how you walk in those.”
      You: “It’s easy! I’ve never minded them and I love them!”

      Busybody: “I can’t believe you wore those in this weather.”
      You: “I love these shoes, actually! They are find in the weather”

      Yesterday I wore a kitten heel and it was like a huge deal and excitement how “maybe (I’ll) wear flats next.”
      You: “Whoa, are you guys on shoe watch or something? Calm down, they’re just shoes I wear on my feet and I love them.” Move on to next topic or breezily walk away.

      People are ridiculous. I love and wear comfortable high heels all the time They need to mind their own business.

      1. Jessie the First (or second)*

        Or, just:

        Busybody: “I don’t know how you wear those every day.
        You: a smile, a bemused “Huh!” Breezily walk away.

    8. Emi.*

      How long has this been going on? If it’s a recent thing (say, if you’ve only been wearing dresses since the weather warmed up), is it possible they’ll just get over it once the weather warms up?

      Otherwise, I would either ignore the shoe comments and just pretend they said “good morning,” or say something like “They’re just shoes. Let’s talk about the new rice sculptures instead.” But unless people are saying these things in a really nasty way, it doesn’t sound like shoe-shaming to me, just shoe-obsessing. That’s still obnoxious, but it might be easier to bear.

    9. HannahS*

      You could try having the same boring response to each comment.
      Them: WOW YOUR HEELS ARE SO TALL
      You: Yep, I like nice shoes. How’s your day going?”

      Them: HOW CAN YOU EVEN WALK OMFG I’D DIE
      You: *shrug* Yep, I like nice shoes. How’s your day going?

      If there are follow-ups, like, “BUT DON’T YOUR FEET HURT?” you can politely deflect by saying, “Oh, don’t worry about my feet. Was there anything you needed to discuss with me?”

      I actually don’t advise saying that it’s a necessity (like someone else suggested) or giving any reason other than that you like nice shoes. One, because saying, “I do this because I like it” is hard to argue with, so it can end a discussion easily, and two–well, I’m a short person who doesn’t wear heels and it really annoys me when other short people say, “I’m [same height as me], so it’s necessary.” It’s not necessary, it’s a choice, and just saying, “I like nice shoes” is a sufficient justification of wearing nice shoes to work.

      1. A.*

        I actually used this tactic for office busy bodies. I walk to work every day and I field questions about walking to work every day.
        Them: Wow you walked to work today? It’s raining.
        You: Yes I walked to work. I have an umbrella.

        Them: Wow you walked to work today? It’s snowing
        You: Yes I walked to work. I wore a hat.

        Them: OMG it is so hot out. How did you walk to work?
        You: Yes I walked to work. I carried a water bottle.

        Rinse and repeat every single day.

          1. Bobbin Ufgood*

            Oddly, I share this desire, and it’s a part of why I recently moved back to Iowa from [elsewhere]

    10. asfjkl*

      I live in a state with harsh winters. Our summers are mostly mild but do hit some hotter temps with high humidity. Once we reached the 70’s I made one off-hand comment that I enjoy the heat. My coworker goes for walks during her lunch break. She comes back and says, “It’s a real hot one today! You’ll love it!” Every. Single. Day.

      It drives me insane. I don’t know how to respond. It doesn’t feel worth it to correct her: “Actually no. 95-degrees and 100% humidity is obviously unpleasant.” It’s just weird office life. I feel for you. People are annoying.

    11. Working Mom, Keeping Her Kids*

      I’m 5’9 and have an ankle that rolls easily so I never ever wear heels. I sit at a desk all day. My coworker is 5’3 and does outside sales and is in/out of the car all day. We love to compare our Fitbit steps. A few months ago, she got 10k steps and I gasped and said “I can’t believe you got 10k steps in wedges!” Now it’s our little joke.
      Bottom line: wear what you want to wear, don’t take it so personally. It’s just small talk. People say to me all the time, “I don’t know how you do everything you do AND have 3 kids.” I choose not to take that personally and /or a suggestion to get rid of my children. :)

    12. Not So NewReader*

      I don’t think anyone is shaming your shoes. I think they are just noting that high heels are difficult for them to use.

      I have big, fat feet. When I buy sneaks I end up with men’s sneaks sometimes because they are just more comfy. Manufacturers do not make high heels for my big feet. I have tried wearing low heels and I end up with blisters and blood.
      It used to embarrass me that I could not wear heels like other women. It took a while for me to get a grip. Even now, I still occasionally wish I could wear dressier shoes. If I commented on your daily high heels, it would be my little bit of jealousy showing through. I hope you can see that some folks aren’t putting down your shoes but rather they wish they could wear them, too.

      1. the gold digger*

        This. If I comment on your gorgeous high high heels, it is out of envy. I can no longer wear anything higher than about two inches without screaming in pain. It hurt so badly to send my teal leopard-print heels with the tangerine ribbon to the consignment store. I am still in mourning.

        (However, I did find some Clarks leopard-print heels with a 2″ heel that are 1. gorgeous and 2. comfortable, which was a combination I thought did not exist.)

      2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        It could also just be the most obvious thing they can think to comment about that is not otherwise socially unacceptable. Sometimes people latch onto one part of your professional demeanor/appearance, and it’s because they’re trying to find a shared topic of conversation and are flailing at finding a better or more interesting one (the comment upthread about warm weather is a good example of that phenomena). But it may not be out of a desire to shame your footwear choices.

        I did once tell a colleague who wore high heels to class every day that I was impressed with her heel collection. (I was! I was also impressed by her ability to walk effectively in shoes that would make me look like a baby deer just learning to walk.) She laughed, winked, and said that it came from years of living in Manhattan and working at legal organizations. And I never brought it up, again, except to tell her how much I liked her shoes.

        1. Kat*

          Exactly! Small talk can be hard, and OK, if they repeatedly make these comments then that’s bound to be annoying, but it’s not really the worst thing in the world. I worked in Lush and everyone who came in asked how I could work there with the strong smell. It was slightly irritating to hear so often, but they were just saying it for something to say.

      3. Beachlover*

        Same here! Many years and pounds ago, I could go all day in heels. So when I see a co-worker, and we have a couple that wear pretty high heels, without any visible discomfort, I am soooo envious. But I usually do not comment, other than to complement the shoe. On the other hand, I also do not really like any attention drawn to me ( introvert here). Our office is very casual. Jeans and Tees are the norm, I rarely wear skirts, because I get anxiety thinking about people noticing and commenting.

    13. BadPlanning*

      I think its that you get stuck on weird things about someone at the office. Like, people are trying to be friendly, but get stuck on one thing. I had a coworker who runs a lot and does marathons. I found myself only asking him about races. While I’m sure he did like talking about races, I didn’t want to seem obsessed with his races. I tried to branch out on other topics. It’s an easy trap to fall into.

      1. Kat*

        Or you have little in common with them. One guy at work I have *nothing* to say to so I only ask him about things I’m sure he must find boring.

    14. Temperance*

      I think it sounds more like lighthearted teasing? I’m super short, too, and generally stick to flats because I don’t care much about being average height. YMMV, obvs. It’s a running joke in the office that I need a normal-height person to reach the coffee.

    15. It's all Fun and Dev*

      I get the same thing, only the opposite – I’m 5’10” without heels, so my 2″-2.5″ shoes regularly push me over 6 feet. I get a lot of “You’re so TALL! How TALL are you??” My standard answer is “about 8 feet” and then I’ll either smile and humor their question with my real height, or I’ll walk away. I try to see it as a compliment, except when folks do it EVERY DAY – then I go for a dry “yep, I’m a freak of nature”. That usually shuts them up :)

      1. Snark (formerly Liet)*

        My wife is about the same height. Her go-to is to point out the obvious.

        “Ahmagad, you’re so TALL!”

        “And you have brown hair. Can I help you?”

        “How tall are you?”

        “Pretty tall. What’s your neck measurement?”

    16. Actuarial Octagon*

      I have literally this exact problem, (also super short) and my go to response for literally any comment on my shoes is: haha, yeah, so how is [insert random work thing] going?

    17. Nervous Accountant*

      are you sure it’s shaming and not just envy? I know I’d be totally jealous bc it’s not something I can do easily.

    18. Catalyst*

      I’m not sure I would take it as shoe shaming. It sounds like you are diverging from the cultural norm at your company and people are noticing. It’s something different to them, most of them will get used to it, others will never stop commenting, don’t take it personally. I got this at my last company a lot when I first started and it eventually tapered off….. then when I did wear flats people would comment.

    19. Hannah*

      If it’s the same person all the time, I would just say can you not comment on what I’m wearing please? You don’t have to be aggressive, but you can be direct.

      But if it’s someone new every time, then that’s just people looking for something to make small talk about other than the weather. I think you have to either accept that your shoes are interesting :) or wear more boring shoes.

    20. Nan*

      I used to wear heels all the time and got a lot of that. I just tuned it out. Now I wear mostly Chuck Taylor’s (super casual office) and no one comments. I don’t get it, either. Granted, my heels ran the gamut from plain black to pink with pink glitter heels and with unicorns and ice cream on them. But the boring ones got just as many comment. I dunno… People just need something to talk about.

      Now, my question is how do you wear kitten heels? I love the way they look, but for whatever reason they kill my knees. You wouldn’t think so, but they do.

    21. Avocado Toast*

      One time I was wearing heels and someone I guess was trying to make conversation while we waited for the elevator and said “Wow, can’t sneak up on anybody with those heels!” It was the weirdest thing. I didn’t even know the guy.

    22. Gwen*

      What someone is wearing is generally considered to be a safe topic of conversation, so I don’t think it’s shaming…your coworkers are just trying to make small talk about a choice you regularly make that is different from the office norm. I have very quirky fashion sense and unnatural hair (this is fine with my work!), and coworkers/peers/random strangers on the street comment on what I’m wearing regularly. I just say thanks or make a little “haha, you know me~” comment to coworkers. I would try not to take it personally, they’re most likely just trying to be sociable.

    23. Mananana*

      I would go with a breezy “It’s my super-power!”. And as others have pointed out, perhaps reframing the comments as just comments, not shaming, may help.

      I love my high heels, and get comments when I’m suddenly 3″ shorter because I chose flats. It’s never crossed my mind to think of these comments as an attempt to shame my choices. In fact, I’ve never given these comments a second thought. They’re just a part of the small talk that connects coworkers.

    24. The OG Anonsie*

      Honestly, I think there are certain workplaces where this type of constant commentary on some people is normal, and I don’t know if there’s anything you can do about it. I find it gross and I usually see it as part of an overall crappy culture.

      1. Confused*

        I’m really not trying to say this in a rude way, but how can these comments be taken as offensive, gross, crappy, etc? What on earth do some of these people actually speak to others about if they feel the need to shut down a simple comment on shoes, or something equally banal. I’m sorry, but I really don’t get it.

        1. Toph*

          It’s the repetition. It’s not inherently creepy or anything else negative, but if the person feels the need to constantly, every day, say something about the shoes (or any other one thing about one’s appearance) can be irksome. In part it’s because it’s banal. If it’s one offhand comment once just making chitchat, I wouldn’t even notice, but if the only thing someone ever talks to me about is what I wear, at a certain point it’s like “why are you so focused on this”. THAT SAID, other commenters who mentioned the person isn’t actually focused on that and might just be stuck on the one thing they know about the person, and thus it’s the only thing they say, really helped me recently. So having that perspective that the person may not actually be focused on this one aspect, but may be just making a poor attempt at chit chat having no other jumping off point, I found to be really helpful and an observation I would not have come up with on my own. I do still think it’s reasonable to try to shut it down if it’s vexing though. Especially if it turns out it is coming from a poor attempt at chit chat and not an actual interest in shoes (or whatever it might have been) the cut-off can redirect the person to stop harping on the one thing.

  9. Art Interviewer*

    I have an interview at an art gallery next week doing sales and helping with events- I have no experience or knowledge of the art industry though! I’m studying as much as possible but any advice from art consultants/gallery workers would be appreciated!

    1. Erin*

      I’ve done extensive gallery work in college and just after graduation. I’m not in the industry now because of distance, I make the same amount where I currently work than working in a galley and I have an hour shorter commute.
      You’ll be a little bit of jack of all trades. Read some websites on how to set up an exhibition. It’s very similar to merchandising in retail. Otherwise it’s a lot like event planning.
      Also measure out the space, and keep those measurements handy. Everything must be centered on the wall. Also read up if they have the walker system for hanging art. If not you’ll love this stuff for painting walls called onetime.
      Most of my experience is with 2d art.

    2. Art world survivor*

      How high-profile is the gallery? When I first got into the art world, I read Blouin, ArtNet, Hyperallergic, etc., all of which were really helpful in explaining relationships: which artists work with which gallerists, etc.
      Like Erin said, you’ll be doing a bunch of different things. Be willing to dive in, be willing to learn. And be positive–a calm, upbeat, unflappable personality is a huge advantage in this industry!

    3. Art Gal*

      Hi! I’m an artist and long-time art industry worker (I currently work for a nonprofit contemporary art museum, but have worked for commercial galleries in the past).

      I know I’m starting this off with a negative, but it’s true, no matter where in the art world you work: The art world is INCREDIBLY abusive. It’s a small world – not everybody has the skills or knowledge to make it here. Because of that, nobody really has the luxury to decline jobs or leave when it turns out the gallerist/exec. director doesn’t know anything about management or boundaries. This is just the way it is. Galleries are often passion projects by people who have no experience running a business or managing people. They’re often not profitable. Which brings me to:

      The pay is generally low, because NO ART GALLERY OR MUSEUM ANYWHERE has any money, no matter what front they put forth. The exception is blue chip galleries like Zwirner, Gagosian, and Hauser & Wirth (though I’ve heard through the grapevine that Gagosian is having problems, and wouldn’t doubt it if the others are, too). The Met, one of the biggest, most-visited, most famous museums in the world, is currently experiencing a financial crisis. MoMA has had a partial hiring freeze for like 15 years. Galleries that have been around for 50 years are closing all over the world. You probably won’t get paid what you’re worth.

      What the other commenter has said is true: you will be expected to wear many hats, whether or not you’re qualified to do so. You can take this as a negative or positive, because you’ll have to gain a lot of skills very quickly, and this could help you get a better position somewhere else in the future.

      Here are some resources I suggest you look into if you’re doing research:

      http://www.paccin.org/ (organization for preparators, who are the people who actually handle art and install it)
      https://www.arcsinfo.org/ (org for registrars)
      http://hyperallergic.com (probably the most-read art blog)
      http://artfcity.com (another blog)

      Ultimately, the thing that will keep you going is a love of art. If you don’t love art, I think the art world is one of the worst industries to be in.

  10. TheyCallHimFlipper*

    So I’m having one of my front teeth extracted today. It broke off at the gum line last week. I’m getting a dental flipper with a front tooth on it to wear, but I’ve been told I should remove it when I eat. I often go out to lunch with clients and I’m not sure how to handle this. I could eat with the flipper in if I stick with something like soup, but not everywhere I go has soup (and I’m a vegetarian, which makes this even tougher). I don’t want to remove the flipper and be without a front tooth in front of clients. Does anyone have any advice or been in this situation before?

    1. ZSD*

      I’m sorry you’re facing this issue. I’m unfamiliar with flippers, so can you clarify whether this is the permanent fix, or just a temporary filler for until the permanent repair is done?

      1. TheyCallHimFlipper*

        This is temporary for the next 7-10 months. I’m beginning the process of getting an implant. Today following the extraction, I will get a bone graft. The bone graft needs to heal for 4-6 months, at which point I can get the metal rod inserted. That has to heal for another 3 or 4 months, at which point I can get an abutment and crown.

        1. paperfiend*

          Implants are awesome! Bone grafts are not so fun. Seriously, it’s the most painful part of the whole process (I’ve had 3 implants with bone grafts). So once you get through the graft healing, know that you’re through the worst of it!

        2. Optimistic Prime*

          A flipper for 7-10 months? That seems…odd.

          I’ve broken both of my front teeth repeatedly at various times in my life, and my dentists have always used dental bonding to build them back up to look like teeth. They can do that in the same visit. In fact, when I finally got crowns put on the two teeth in my mid-20s, my orthodontist used bonding to temporarily make my teeth whole until my crowns were made – and that was only for a week.

          There are lots of different options besides temporary partial dentures/flippers. I am not a dentist, of course, so I can’t speak to the feasibility of one, but I’d be really upset if my dentist expected me to use a removable flipper for almost a full year.

          1. TheyCallHimFlipper*

            So both my front teeth were/are capped. This one also had a root canal. I broke it off at the gum line, so there wasn’t enough tooth left for them to try to save it, by doing a crown and post or anything of the like.

            It turns out I managed to crack my other front tooth when I broke this one. But luckily that tooth is still solid and can be saved. Once I go through the process of letting my tooth heal, I will get new crowns on both teeth.

            The 7-10 month period is because after they pulled this tooth, they had to pack bone material into the roots, and that needs 4-6 months to ossify. Once it’s ossified, they’ll install the metal rod. That’ll need another three months to heal. Then they can do the actual crown.

            I didn’t want a temporary bridge as they have to compromise the integrity of the two neighboring teeth to do a bridge. (And my other front tooth is hanging on by a thread right now). I suppose I could have gotten the Invisalign style flipper for this tooth, but I don’t have a lot of money, and my insurance doesn’t cover any of it.

    2. paperfiend*

      If by “flipper” you mean something like an old-school plastic retainer with a tooth on the front… you can totally eat with those in. It takes some getting used to, and cleaning afterward is a beast, but you can do it. Just avoid super crunchy or sticky foods (anything you would avoid while wearing braces) and take smaller bites than you might otherwise. That’ll allow the suction between the plastic part and the roof of your mouth (or the lower gums, depending if top or bottom) to hold.

      I had one of those as a teenager, and there was no way I was taking the thing out when having snacks with my friends!

      1. TheyCallHimFlipper*

        The dentist’s office told me that since this is my top front tooth, attempting to bite down or chew with this tooth could break it. They didn’t specifically prohibit me from eating with it in, but if it breaks, it’s another $450 for a replacement, so I’m sure they’d be thrilled if it broke.

        1. paperfiend*

          Ok. Mine was my top next-to-the-front so maybe it didn’t get as much pressure on it. You might still be able to use a fork to put bites of food into your mouth so that tooth isn’t being used for chewing — but obviously, whatever you and your potential budget are comfortable with.

        2. Anna*

          It might be an annoying thing where you’re making food choices when you go out based on the toughness of the food. Maybe the next 7-10 months will involve a lot of pasta lunches?

        3. Snark (formerly Liet)*

          If it’s your front tooth, I’d just fork bites into molar range. No subs or burgers or whatever, but you can work around that.

          1. Kelly White*

            This might work. My kid has a facial injury now, and will be loosing teeth, and currently can’t bite with her front teeth, and it’s remarkable how she can work around it. She spent a lot of time cutting things up at the beginning- but now, she is pretty adept at using just her molar-y teeth.

          2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

            Yes, agreed. I would just avoid foods that require you to use your incisors (burgers, sandwiches, etc.). I’d eat things that are soft, like pasta, or able of being delivered, by fork, toward the back of my mouth/molars.

    3. Fiennes*

      I’ve had extensive dental work–not this in particular but virtually anything else that can be done to teeth. So please understand that I’m not being flippant when I say: Stick to the places that serve soup.

      Just own it. Probably if you steer clients to those places, they’ll be fine. If they aren’t? While you don’t have to go into details, you can say something like, “I need something soft – dental work!” and everyone will understand that.

      This is a much better strategy than testing the limits of your temporary dental stuff. TRUST ME on this.

      1. TheyCallHimFlipper*

        This is what I was thinking, though one of the problems is that I am the most junior employee having meals with clients, so often what I want/need isn’t considered as important as what the higher-ups/clients want/need. My managers are aware of the situation with my teeth, but I know if it came down to it and a client wanted to go to Crusty Baguette Sandwiches R Us, that’s where we’d end up.

        1. k.k*

          In that worst case scenario, eat the bits your can, push the rest around on your plate? Or just order a small side or nothing. Depending on the situation and what you feel comfortable with, you can just say it’s due to dental work, or use the old excuse of having had a big meal earlier. Hopefully that situation will be rare enough that it wouldn’t cause much notice.

        2. Saturnalia*

          Is it terribly weird to only get a drink or side if you end up at The Crunch Castle, and claim to (and/or actually) have something before or after? Since you’re veg you probably have had some meals like this anyway, right? I’m vegan and worked in a pretty meat-loving group, so I’m wondering if you can just treat it like they brought you to one of those BBQ joints that adds meat stuff to all their side dishes?

        3. Spice for this*

          I had to have both upper front teeth extracted in 2007 and I had to wear a flipper until my gum healed. This is what I did when I had to have meals with clients, co-workers, etc.
          – I would always order foods that I could eat with a fork and knife. I would then cut the food into very small pieces and then used my fork to place the food in the back of my mouth so that I could use my molars and chew with my mouth closed
          – order soft foods from the menu
          – explained to clients or co-workers that I have had dental work done and have to eat very slow
          – if possible I would skip the lunch and eat at the office
          Good luck and I hope you love your implant.

      2. LKW*

        Yup, avoid anything that requires significant chewing. Italian restaurants are your friend as pasta and risotto will be easy to manage as long as they don’t have proteins.

      3. pahcad*

        I been using a flipper for my front tooth for about 40 years and have no trouble eating with it. I’ve bitten into hamburgers and sandwiches using the opposite side of the mouth. The trick is to avoid using the false tooth to bite into food. You eat just about anything except the really hard stuff (I avoid that since I don’t want to break my flipper). I keep my flipper in all day and remove and clean it at every night when I go to sleep.

    4. dyinginbiglaw*

      I had a friend with a flipper! We ate together a ton and I didn’t even notice it until over 6 months after we met. She was really skilled with her discretion. She’d take a napkin up to her face and turn away to take it out and leave it on her lap. She’d cover her mouth if she spoke as if she was talking with a bit of food in her mouth or use a napkin. She’d also go to the bathroom after she was finished with her meal to put it back it. She had great finesse; I was oblivious.

    5. Newby*

      When eating with a client I suggest avoiding anything tough to chew and cutting things up so that you do not need to bite down on them. That way you can chew using only your back teeth. Soups, salads, pasta and stir fry would all allow you to do that. Avoid sandwiches and pizza since it would be weird to cut them before eating.

      1. TheImpossibleGirl*

        Psh I cut my pizza all the time. My manager made fun of it as something no one does until he noticed one of my co-workers does it too. #vindication

    6. SQL Coder Cat*

      Unfortunately, I have! A upper front tooth broke off at the gums, got the flipper for the 12 months of setting up my implant, the whole deal. Unlike the plastic retainer I had during high school, the flipper covered the whole top of my mouth and didn’t have the open part in the center, so it took up a lot more room! Eating with it in was basically impossible unless it was super soft food and I took very small bites. I practiced my closed-mouth smile a LOT that year. At meals out, I would excuse myself to go to the restroom and ‘wash up’ and put the flipper in its case in my bag. A lot of people were surprised to find out afterwards that I’d lost the tooth- they’d never seen the opening even when eating with me multiple times. It definitely takes some practice to keep it hidden though. Maybe have some practice meals with a trusted friend/coworker who you trust to give you honest feedback about if they can notice it or not?

      Also, you will love the implant.

      1. Red Reader*

        Yep. I had no front teeth (and no fakes either) for two years – at the end, when I finally got my implants and arch, like 80% of the people I know had never noticed. One of my coworkers at the time saw my graduation pictures from the previous weekend and wanted to know where my big cheesy toothy grin was, and I was ticked because I thought she was making fun of me – she felt super bad about it when we figured out that no, she just never noticed, and she was trying to make a cheerful joke, not a mean one.

    7. LostACrown*

      I can understand if you have a really formal relationship with your clients and you wouldn’t want to be honest– but if it were me I think I would be honest about it in a very brief, matter-of-fact way, perhaps as you excuse yourself to go to the bathroom and remove it. I’d be worried about taking it off in secret and the person realizing halfway through lunch that your tooth had disappeared, leaving them to wonder what, if anything, they should say to you.

      FWIW I once had a temporary crown pop off my back tooth in the middle of a large lunch meeting in front of all three of my bosses and the co-founders/execs of another company… at *their* place of business. I had no idea where the bathroom was, so I calmly stated that I thought my crown had been dislodged, faced away from the group, carefully fished it out of my mouth among the food, directly placed it into a napkin, swallowed my food, and then asked to be shown the bathroom. Totally gross, probably could’ve handled it differently, but then again, how does one prepare for that?!

      I was mortified at the time. It’s been a couple years, but I jokingly mentioned it to my boss the other day and she could barely remember the incident. So… if it helps, it’s really just a temporary embarrassment!

      1. Rainy, PI*

        I have a friend who, during an interview, had one of those spontaneous, horrible fountaining nosebleeds, and in reaching into her suit pocket for a tissue, knocked her music player, which started music blaring out of her earbuds, also in her pocket.

        She got the job.

        She asked the interviewer, who was also her new manager, about it after she’d been there a few months, and he not only hadn’t noticed the music at all, he thought her reaction to the nosebleed was full of, you should excuse the term, sangfroid, and was very impressed. Given that a big part of the job was responding calmly to sudden crises, he thought that being chill about suddenly having a ton of blood jet out of your face in the middle of an interview was a good indicator of the correct temperament.

        Which is all to say that I think moments of extreme embarrassment are never as prominent in the memory of others as they are in our own. :)

    8. DaniCalifornia*

      Would your clients be okay with going to more coffee meetings? Or breakfast meetings? Where you could drink coffee and have a soft muffin?

      If not, I’d practice discreetly taking it out while eating, and just eat normally. I wouldn’t risk chewing with it and breaking it. Maybe you could go out with a friend or family member, eat something you’d normally eat with a client and see how it works? If the other person can even see your top teeth while eating.

  11. Eugenie*

    My office nemesis just got let go (most likely for being generally terrible) – it’s really hard to contain my glee today.

    Happy Friday!

    4. Alli525*

      Good for you!! This happened to me twice at my last job (one an incompetent and vindictive colleague, and one a vindictive boss) and I remember both days as being Very Good.

    5. Clever Name*

      Congrats! When my office nemesis moved on, my mentor asked me how I was feeling about his departure. I said, “I’m trying not to be openly gleeful”. So I know how you feel. :)

    7. Willow Sunstar*

      Congrats! I wish they would let mine go, but he is being protected, so I have given up and been looking for another job instead.

  12. KiteFlier*

    How do you handle a low performer who is having family issues? Both of his parents are very ill and I have been accommodating in taking time off work, leaving early, etc. There are a lot of performance issues going on that have not been improving over time, and I am ready to start the PIP process. I can’t help but feel as if I’m being “mean” because of the family issues that are going on, but at the same time, we need him to perform at a higher level. Has anyone ever been in this situation?

    1. Here we go again*

      Did the performance issues start at the same time as the family issues or are they not related to each other?

      If it’s the former, I would start by suggesting your EAP. If it’s the latter, then go with the PIP.

      1. KiteFlier*

        So both preceded me – I inherited him when I got to my current job a few months ago. There were some documented performance issues in the fall/winter, and I believe the family issues started later in the winter, waned, and have since picked up again.

        1. NylaW*

          Issues starting in fall/winter (November) and then a family issue starting in late winter (February), may mean the family issues actually started at the same time, and you didn’t hear about them until they built up to needing to use PTO and family leave. Not everyone is going to tell you something is going on that’s stressing them out and causing them work issues until they realize that it is. This is definitely something I’d talk to him about if for no other reason then to make sure he realizes the performance issues are as critical as they are prior to starting the PIP.

    2. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      I agree with the above comment regarding when it started. If it started when the family issues started, I’d recommend even just talking to them. A little over 18 months ago my dad died (suddenly and unexpectedly). It was right before Christmas and I only had 3 days off before having to be back to work. My performance suffered. Instead of anyone talking to me, I was immediately called into my boss’s office and reprimanded. I’d been there nearly 5 years and it was extraordinarily off-putting. I get that companies need to function, but people should be treated like people and not robots. (Obviously if they’re unrelated and there’s been conversation this situation does not apply.)

      1. KiteFlier*

        Thanks, WDB. As noted above, they both started before I came on board. I was aware of some performance issues from the prior manager but wanted to observe for myself for a few months before taking any action. I have had a few different discussions with him on the issues, but I haven’t seen any improvement, or even the effort to make any improvements. The fact that others have commented on the performance (my boss, managers of departments he works closely with), backing up my own concerns, have me feeling that it’s time for a PIP.

        I’m sorry about your dad! 3 days off after a parent’s death is just not enough time. That sounds like your job and boss didn’t have your emotional well-being in mind at all.

        1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

          No, no they did not. My coworkers did – I will say that for them. They all did what they could for me, so it was a very odd Twilight Zone sensation.

          But in this case, definitely, you are not being mean starting PIP. And…who knows? Maybe this will be the appropriate kick in the pants he needs to either step up or find somewhere else with a lighter load that he can handle with everything going on.

          1. NPOQueen*

            Did you end up leaving that company? If your boss can’t be compassionate at such a time of need, I wonder what you suffer through for smaller issues…

            1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

              I haven’t – yet. I wanted to take a year before making any life changing decisions. Plus, there is NO WAY I could have adequately interviewed. I was doing good to know my own name for the first six months. Let alone have a clean suit and updated resume. It wasn’t pleasant, but at least it was the devil I knew.

              Now, I’m applying like crazy, and have gotten a few nibbles. So far they’ve been incompatible or just didn’t pan out. To keep from going crazy, I volunteer with an animal shelter. It’s good for my soul. I also mentally leave everything behind as soon as I walk out the door. I know life is too short to get worked up about it outside 8 -5.

              I could go on for HOURS about how dysfunctional it is. But I won’t. I’ll only state my daily motto: Paper trail, paper trail, paper trail.

        2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          How direct were you when discussing the performance problems? Unless it was crystal clear that these were big deals that could affect his job, I would be loathe to start a PIP without at least having that crystal clear convo. But if you’ve done that, then you are not mean for starting a PIP.

          But it may make sense to remind him that he may be eligible for FMLA leave (in addition to an EAP referral), with a comment that when he comes back, you need to see concrete improvement in performance (and then be very specific about what the performance indicators and improvements must be). When he comes back from leave, reiterate the conversation re: performance improvements. And then PIP accordingly.

        3. MillersSpring*

          You need to have a clear conversation that you have not seen any effort to make improvements and ask him what is going on. Make it clear that his job is at risk and that a PIP (one last chance) is imminent.

      2. Rebecca*

        I’m so sorry for your loss. My Dad died on Easter Sunday this year. He was sick but we didn’t realize it would be so fast (final diagnosis was on Thursday a few days before). My workplace was great. I had already taken off Thursday afternoon to take him and Mom to the doctor, and then Friday to spend with him, so on top of the 3 bereavement days I was granted, I took 2 PTO days so I at least had a week off. My coworkers covered everything for me. When I walked in the following Monday, all my work was done, emails read and filed, unrelated emails deleted, and my desk was clean. They were so kind to do that.

        I’m sorry your boss reprimanded you. That was a crappy thing to do. The first day back, one of our managers stopped by, sat down, and asked me if I needed anything. I started to tell her my work was caught up, and she said no, do YOU need anything, I wasn’t asking about work. That meant a lot too.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Can you offer family leave?

      OTH, low performer may not care. He might think the job is a bad fit anyway. People can be surprising with what they tell a boss. He may say, “I know. I am sorry. It’s for the best, I understand. Stuff is just not coming together for me.”

      1. KiteFlier*

        He is aware of family leave, and has taken several days off as needed with no issues, I’m happy to grant that time.

    4. Lily Rowan*

      I put someone with family issues on a PIP. The performance issues preceded the family issues as far as I knew (I’m sure I didn’t have all the details about the family). In the end, she resigned before the end of the PIP and seemed to genuinely feel relief that she would be able to focus on the family issues before looking for a new job she’d be more suited for.

      Good luck!

    5. SC in SC*

      I had a similar situation although mine wasn’t quite as tragic for the employee. One of my managers was just a bad fit for her position. Team morale had fallen off a cliff, projects were not moving forward and overall she was having a seriously detrimental effect on the performance of a large and critical group. The mitigating personal factors were that her husband had a spotty employment record at best, they had two kids in college and money was running tight. Long story short we had already gone the coaching for improvement route and did not see much difference in her performance. In the end I had to make a call whether I was going to continue to damage both my department as well as my own reputation by not addressing the situation. As painful as it was I had to let her go. The actual termination went much better than I expected but leading up to it was very stressful with lots of internal struggles.

      In the end there were a few things that I helped me come to grips with a very difficult decision: focus on the long-term company and team needs as opposed to the immediate situation; as managers it is our responsibility to make difficult decisions; is the employee having a detrimental affect on others; what is the likelihood that the employee will improve in a reasonable time; are there any other options; if you don’t terminate the person now are you just going to be having the same conversation 6 months from now. One last thing that helped was something I believe I read on AAM, “If the person you’re thinking about terminating quit today, would you be relieved?”

      All that being said I also had the advantage that we were willing to offer a very generous severance package. We also tried to manage it as humanely as possible to maintain the employee’s dignity. Regardless, I still wrestled with the feelings of being mean.And although it would be nice if I never had to fire another employee I expect that won’t be the case and I hope that I don’t become so jaded that I don’t have some regrets about it.

    6. Jadelyn*

      A PIP isn’t “mean” – used correctly, it’s giving someone clarity on the gap between where they are and where they need to be, specific actions they must take to close that gap, a timeline to do it by, and support in the form of periodic check-ins during the PIP period.

      If you’re just doing it as a precursor to firing him, then that would be mean. But there’s nothing mean about saying “I sympathize with what you’re going through as another human being, but as a manager I need you to be able to do [whatever performance things aren’t currently happening], you’re not doing [things], and I can’t bend those needs any further than I already have. How can we resolve this?”

      I mean, I wouldn’t recommend it as your first reaction, but if you’ve already worked with him and talked about the performance stuff and aren’t seeing improvement, then there’s nothing “mean” about starting a PIP.

      1. KiteFlier*

        Thank you, Jadelyn! These are easy fixes that I have no doubt he can turn around, but it seems that mentioning the issues without any formal documentation was not working. Definitely not a precursor to firing if I can help it!

  13. AdAgencyChick*

    Update on my freelance pay saga (for those who don’t know, I do some side work unrelated to my day job, and one of my clients, who I knew had had a history of not paying my predecessor on time, but who paid ME on time, missed a payment right after he fired his business manager in May):

    Those of you whose instincts were to cut ties were right. I was paid a few days late last month. This month, I asked twice for confirmation of payday. No response. The usual payday was a Saturday (7/1). First business day in July also went by with no pay. So I deleted all of my work from shared servers.

    On Wednesday morning I emailed my resignation. I said that I would replace the files, which represent work I hadn’t yet been paid for, as soon as I got the direct deposit.

    No response until yesterday afternoon, when he wrote back with some excuses about major expenses that had come up in the last month and how he should have included me on those decisions. (Huh? I’m not the business manager. I certainly would have liked a heads up about difficulty making payroll, so that I could have said, “OK, I won’t do any work this month,” but it’s not like I want to be the business manager and I wouldn’t have had anything to say about whether or not a particular non-payroll expenditure was necessary!) He also asked whether I would reconsider.

    I said no, just pay me and I’ll give you the files back. He said he could do it through the normal payroll direct deposit system, or that he could pay me faster by Venmo. I said yes to Venmo.

    Fortunately, after accepting the Venmo payment (which was short by about 5%…really?!) but before returning the files, I learned that Venmo works like a check in that Venmo payments can bounce. I’ve decided not to make an issue of the 5%, but I did reply to the Venmo payment saying he could have the files once the transfer to my bank goes through.

    I’m just really disappointed. I thought maybe he was just horribly disorganized (which he is), but I can’t help wondering whether he intended to reverse the Venmo payment as soon as he got the files, since I also found out yesterday that he has bounced checks to his former business manager.

    I’m considering emailing all of the writers (I was the managing editor, so I still have all of their contact info) telling them not only THAT I quit, but WHY I quit. This is partly because I know that at least some of them have not been paid either (wouldn’t surprise me if none of them have), and they’re good people and they should know what they’re dealing with so they can decide how best to pursue what’s owed to them. I also admit it’s partly because I wouldn’t mind at all if the owner finds himself with no one wanting to write for him.

    On a happier note, the business manager who was fired ended up putting me in touch with a potential new client, whom I’m going to talk to tomorrow. Not that I needed this side work financially, but I really enjoy it and there aren’t many paying markets for it.

    TL;DR: Deadbeats suck.

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      I think it doesn’t matter much whether the employer (or employee) is doing crappy stuff out of malice or incompetence–you need to be paid, regardless of any hoped-to-be-extenuating circumstances below the level of “a hurricane has wiped out all the online banking in the area for a few days.”

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      He also asked whether I would reconsider.

      “Sure, but I’ll require full payment upfront.”

      1. AdAgencyChick*

        I thought about that and decided I didn’t even want to offer him that, much as I enjoy the work. When I was getting paid regularly and on time, I had the editing work down to a science — what I would get done on what days so that I would always be editing things a certain number of weeks ahead of their actual use date. (There are more steps that happened to the work after I finished my part.)

        If I had to stop work while waiting for my retainer to come through and not start again until paid, I’m pretty sure my cushion of weeks-ahead work would quickly dwindle to a much smaller number. Knowing this guy, he’d expect me to maintain that cushion (even though that would mean huge bursts of work hitting right after I get paid). My day job is my priority, though, so I didn’t want to have to deal with that and I didn’t offer him that option.

    3. Newby*

      You might want to just tell the writers that you quit and leave out why unless asked. It seems like this might fall under the “don’t badmouth a former employer” umbrella and it wouldn’t really serve much purpose. If they have not been paid either then they already know that this is an issue. It doesn’t sound like it is a new issue either.

      1. AdAgencyChick*

        It’s not a new issue, but it is new to most if not all of them, since most of the writers started working for the company after the now-fired business manager started and had pay under control. (I myself had never dealt with the issue until the last two months — I was only aware of the previous problems since my predecessor gave me a heads up.)

        I ended up getting a couple of questions related to the work this morning, so I did exactly as you said and emailed all the writers that I am no longer with the company, but didn’t say why. A couple have responded privately, and I have told them why.

        I do hope the writers as a group will be wise enough not to do any further work without first being paid for what they’ve already done.

        1. MsChanandlerBong*

          Sorry you are dealing with this. I’ve been freelancing for almost 15 years, and I am lucky that I’ve only had to deal with this two or three times. But one of those times was with an invoice for $1,310 (my rent, my utilities, etc.). I wrote a bunch of sell sheets for performance fabrics made by a company in Canada. However, I was not working directly for them; I was working for a marketing company retained by them to prepare for a trade show. I never got paid. I should have contacted the fabric manufacturer and told them they were using materials that had not been paid for, but I was new to the industry at the time, and I wasn’t sure if that would be the right course of action.

      2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        I somewhat disagree, because we’re not talking about late pay, only, or an interpersonal problem. This sounds like this guy has a culture of stiffing people, and for freelance writers, that can really jeopardize their safety. I think the situation is closer to someone being exploited/fleeced. In that case, I would want to know.

        But I’m struggling on what the best approach or medium would be for letting others know that someone is not paying for work. I’d hold off on sharing the Venmo story about bouncing payments, just because it’s not 100% clear that that was his intention (although it happened to the business manager). This is tough—I wish I had better advice :(

    4. The OG Anonsie*

      Whooo yeah, don’t give him anything until you have cash totally secured. Whether he’s disorganized or shifty (probably both, but shorting your payment and doing it via Venmo is definitely super shifty) doesn’t really matter so much. You can’t trust him either way.

    5. JulieBulie*

      I think you should tell the other writers. If I were one of those writers, I would want to know just how much of a deadbeat this guy was.

      And yay for the old business manager!

    6. This Daydreamer*

      Just curious – have you checked out clientsfromhell.net? It’s a site for freelancers to vent and they do have a lot of advice for dealing with deadbeats and the other crap that comes with creative freelancing. And the stories are highly entertaining.

  14. Whoopsy*

    Today’s my last day at my first real job out of college. I’ve quit so I can have more time to put together my upcoming move. I gave standard notice, we’re all on great terms, I’ve got the reference on lock, et cetera. But my boss didn’t tell me until this morning that he needs a resignation letter from me as per HR requirements. Can it just be the sentence “I resign from Company effective today”, or does it need to read like a letter I might have handed to him when originally giving notice? Should I backdate it to that date? The way he said it (and the fact that he didn’t tell me til today) seem to militate towards it being so pro forma that I can probably do the one or two sentence thing, but I just wanted to be sure.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Even if you’d been asked for a letter originally, it would still only need to be one or two sentences. “This is to confirm my resignation, and that July 7, 2017 will be my last day. I’ve enjoyed working here and wish the company the best.” The end.

    2. C in the Hood*

      Personally, I’d say something like “Per our conversation on [whatever date or timeframe], I will be resigning effective today.”

      1. AdAgencyChick*

        Yeah, exactly. Just in case anyone ever interprets the letter as your not having given notice.

        1. Whoopsy*

          That actually touches on another concern I had, which was whether the paper trail was just about the letter existing, or if the text actually mattered as well. Sounds like option 2?

      3. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        Yup. This is what my last resignation letter said.

        Whoopsy, you can address it to your boss and add a line at the bottom noting it’s CC’d to HR. Or just address it to your boss. It’s really ok for resignation letters to be very short—they’re usually just for internal housekeeping.

    3. Newby*

      You could always ask him what he needs in the letter. It sounds like you are on good terms and it is in his best interest to make sure the letter is sufficient for whatever it is that they need it for.

  15. straws*

    I have what is probably a dual problem going on. First, I’ve been in my role for a year, but coworkers from other departments still go to my predecessor, “John”, (his dept was split and I took over the half he let go) when they need to discuss my projects. Second, John passively dislikes me. He’s made a career of getting comfortable, whereas I’ve made a career of getting ahead. So although we’re counterparts and he’s been here longer, I outrank him in the company due to additional responsibilities and both a broader and deeper skillset. I know that he has some fairly sexist personal viewpoints and I’m female, although I don’t know if he allows that to affect his workplace behavior (did I mention he’s passive? Extremely. Passive).

    Either because of this or in addition to it, when coworkers go to him about my work or with relevant info, he gives them answers (that are frequently wrong because they’re a year or more out of date) and accepts information without telling me. So I only find out when the information crosses my boss’s plate down the line and nothing is done about it. My boss does recognize this as an issue, but he seems to still think that having discussions with John will be effective. I don’t know what exactly is said in these discussions or how. I try to make an effort to be proactive about information gathering and about updating other departments regarding relevant projects I’m working on. I end up feeling more like a messenger than the resident expert, however, and nothing seems to change. I’ve also spoken to John directly and asked him to redirect people to me or at least inform me when he has discussions. He always agrees with me and goes on about how it will be great for him to have fewer people contacting him, and then nothing changes. I suspect he does the same thing to our boss, which is why he seems to think the discussions go well. Is there anything I can do beyond waiting for my boss to catch up to the impact this is having or giving up on it ever happening?

    1. Aunt Margie at Work*

      Question about the impact. Is this just affecting you? It needs to affect your boss and he needs to toss it back to the people who are making it happen.
      If someone gets outdated information from John, proceeds with it and gives your their boss the final product, are you expected to correct it? You need your boss to stop wasting his time talking to John and to start talking to the people who going to him. “Nope, this is wrong. Please get the correct information from Jane and resubmit by end of day today.”
      John is a jerk. He’s a problem; he’s not the solution.

      1. straws*

        We’re kind of a cusp where these issues are starting to affect my boss. He still seems convinced that conversations will fix everything for now, but I’m betting that won’t last much longer now that a couple of important issues have been dropped. So to answer your question, initially it was just me, but it’s creeping out of my personal zone at a fairly swift rate now. To my boss’s credit, he just suggested that he speak with one of the coworkers going to John, so there’s some progress already! John has a lot to contribute, but he’s definitely a problem right now.

        1. Aunt Margie at Work*

          That’s good. Maybe you boss is reading AAM! I wonder if he did mention to someone that he’s having a problem with people going to John and getting wrong info and that person said, “tell your staff to stop doing that!”

          1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

            Yes, agreed! I think it’s ok to also speak directly to John, but don’t expect him to be useful. Hopefully your boss will step up, but it’s also ok to speak directly to coworkers and cut John out. But I do want the boss to get on the same page about backing you up. It’s not about avoiding conflict and pretending that’s somehow more “effective.”

            I had a similar situation when I took over for an outgoing editor who took something akin to quasi-retirement for a few months before his final departure date (there was a 2-3 month overlap). People went behind my back to speak to him for reasons that were all unreasonable and unprofessional. He loved feeling needed and like the resident expert. When I raised the issue with him, he was like, “but isn’t it rude not to answer questions?” (his answers, btw, were directly sabotaging our work as a department and my work as lead editor because, to be completely honest, he was a little incompetent). I had a firm but direct conversation that he needed to redirect people back to me, and I gave him sample scripts so he wouldn’t feel “rude.” That worked because, unlike John, he was not trying to be a jackass and didn’t dislike me—he was pretty neutral and, after thinking it through, realized why/how his involvement was undermining.

            And I put the EIC on notice about what had happened, because sure enough, some of my problem editors wanted to go around me to complain that I was “interfering” with their “right” to speak to the old editor. (Sidenote: They’re allowed to escalate to my boss, and I encourage folks to do that if they’re uncomfortable raising issues directly with their boss [me].). It looks pretty stupid when your complaint is, “My manager wants me to direct management questions to her instead of the prior department head, who btw, isn’t even part of the leadership team anymore and will be gone in 2 weeks.”

            But, it helped that the EIC had my back. I really want your boss to have yours.

            1. straws*

              My boss definitely is on my “side”. I think the only issue in his court is that he’s extremely busy and at a loss as to why anyone would be behaving like John is. He tends to think the best of people and gets thrown off when they don’t fulfill his expectations. Usually he has a good recovery, it can just take awhile. He’s been very supportive during discussions so far though, and although having my back won’t prevent issues from starting, it will prevent them from compounding at least.

              The “rude” issue rings a little true to me. I think at least part of John’s problem is an inability to say No to anyone. I don’t think he’s purposely sabotaging me, but I also don’t think he has any respect or care for me (professionally) either. So, he’d rather feel comfortable in the moment than avoid undermining me. I’ve had a couple of conversations like you did with your editor, but it never helps. He agrees and then goes back to his old habits as soon as the discussion is over. I suspect all of this will backfire spectacularly at some point, but I’m hoping to minimize the effect on me!

    2. anna green*

      Can you notify the coworkers directly not to go to John anymore? (again and again until it sticks?) John sounds like he just doesn’t care about anything, so maybe circumventing him is the only option.

    3. rubyrose*

      I would start bringing it to the attention of the people who are going to John as soon as you find out. You want this documented. Start with an email straight to the person, requesting they no longer contact John and point out whatever problems were caused by contacting him. If it occurs again, another email, including your manager and theirs, and perhaps John.

    4. Menacia*

      Just like others have said, cut out John as the middleman and go directly to anyone who needs the information, or needs to provide you with the information. And keep on reminding them.

      You never know what John is saying to them but it’s obvious that there are balls being dropped all over the place, and he does not care.

      If you want to get ahead, being proactive is pretty much a requirement.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Let your boss know that you have had numerous conversations already. Then ask how many more conversations you should have before something else will be done. Nail him down on a number. “Oh so you are saying to try three more times and then we will build a different plan?” Repeat back to him what ever he says.

      Then write down the dates and the incidents. When you collect up the number of incidents go back to the boss and say, “I have here a list of three incidents of the same problem that have occurred since the last time we spoke on this. We had agreed that we would do something different if these incidents did not stop. I think we need to make that plan.”

      I have done this and it has worked okay for me most of the time.

      1. straws*

        I do need to be more consistent with documentation. A lot of our correspondence is via email, so that makes it easier to compile at least.

    6. Been there*

      The good news is that this is generally self correcting. When Bob comes to you because his project is in chaos because of the bad information he got from John, you can then calmly say, “Hmm, that’s interesting, I’m not sure where you got that outdated information. If you would have come to me I would have been happy to explain all the recent developments.”

      Word usually quickly gets around that going to John will cause more work for people. You will also start gaining the expert credibility.

      Of course there’s a stick to this carrot/stick solution. When Bob comes to you with his project in chaos because of John’s information, you can always refer him back to John to help him fix it. That one teaches both Bob and John who should be the one to go to for information. I generally only use the stick when people offend multiple times.

      1. straws*

        Thank you, these are some good scripts/ideas. I think some of the upcoming situations will lend themselves well to the stick method, so I’ll see if I can work that in.

    7. Lora*

      OMG do you work at a pharma starting with M? You’ve described my workplace nemesis perfectly, and I’ve spoken with the boss twice about it now, plus I have an appointment to discuss with the boss AGAIN Monday because I am ALL SET with this nonsense. This guy. Arrgh. Boss has spoken with him but to no effect, so we’re back to “things have not changed, he still sucks and it affects my work by X Y and Z, please do something to make him just go away.”

      I keep thinking he will get canned because he’s flushed enough of the CapEx budget and several months’ worth of development work down the toilet on bad designs and foot-dragging and general incompetence to fund a small island nation and establish a dynasty thereupon, but it hasn’t happened yet. And I’m out of patience.

      On a positive note, the people who used to go to him are gradually starting to come to me because they are tired of his incompetence. So, there’s that.

      I got nothing but sympathy.

      1. Anon for this one*

        I work at a Pharma starting with M and while I don’t have anyone directly sabotaging my work, the level of dysfunction that I see in certain individuals or departments, the inefficiency, the reverence for people who do things half-ass backward and cause others extra work just because they have been around forever, the overly bureaucratic nonsense and the sense that everybody is happy with their little fiefdoms and closed off silos will eventually drive me stark raving mad.

        1. Lora*

          Well heck, it’s time to go drinking at A4 if you’re in Cambridge. I just wrote up my mid-year metrics and I’m useless for the rest of the day.

          1. Anon for this one*

            Lol nope in the US, but I would imagine you might work for the same company.

      2. straws*

        I do not, but you have all of my sympathy as well! I’m glad to hear that people do tire of incompetence though. There is hope!

    8. MillersSpring*

      I had a similar issue–my role was created by carving out work from a guy who then became my peer. Multiple external contacts continued to go to him, and he wasn’t redirecting them to me; he enjoyed being a resource and building the relationships.

      And like your John, this guy was Oh So Passive. So the third time he didn’t redirect a contact to me, I was extremely blunt and pointed with him, e.g. “WHY are you not pointing people to me? I KNOW you like talking to them, but that’s NOW MY AREA. I have to be able to DO MY JOB. I don’t want this to happen AGAIN.”

      It worked, and he was a pussycat for the rest of the time I worked with him. Still is and we look back and laugh about it. Good luck!

  16. Antti*

    I already know what I’m going to do with this, but I’m curious what y’all think.

    My company, in applications for internal candidates, only has a slot to upload a resume, no cover letter. Would you consider saving a cover letter in the same PDF/Word doc as your resume to be not following directions, etc., or would you be more surprised to receive an application without that?

    My own thought: I’m including the cover letter because it’s such a normal thing to submit, and I feel like it would be even weirder for me to not submit one than it is for the system to not explicitly ask for one. I know it’s an internal applicant situation, but this is a *huge* company and you absolutely can’t assume everyone is going to know everyone else, and I’d really like to expand on achievements in a way I just can’t with a resume anyway.

    2. straws*

      We don’t have an internal process like this, but for external candidates I would only see including a cover letter as a positive. If there’s only one attachment field and you have important information to convey, I’m not sure how else you would be able to pull that off.

    3. Toph*

      It depends on if the application system anywhere it mentions cover letters at all. If it’s ambiguous because it has no spot to attach one and there is no mention of it anywhere, I don’t think I’d be bothered by it being in the same pdf as the resume (but it’s also neither a plus nor a minus in this context).

      If the application system, or the job posting itself, or basically anything official in writing about how to apply says where/when to include a cover letter, then having it in the resume pdf would strike me as not following instructions. However that only applies if there were some explicit contrary instructions somewhere.

    4. Sualah*

      In my big company, when I’m applying, I attach my resume only through our jobs system. Then, I send an email “cover letter” to the hiring manager listed on the job posting and also add that I’ve already applied through the jobs site and I’m attaching my resume for convenience. I’ve had really good luck with it–most have thanked me for reaching out and I’ve almost always gotten a phone screen at least.

    5. Jessica*

      I just dealt with this, and I attached a cover letter to my resume and uploaded it as a single attachment. I knew who the hiring manager was (it isn’t included on job listings, but the position was within my department anyway) but I personally felt it might be better to keep everything within the system.

    6. Optimistic Prime*

      Nope. My current company only had one slot for attachments and I attached a cover letter and resume in the same PDF. I found out after the fact that my manager doesn’t like applications without cover letters and didn’t even realize that the company application site doesn’t have two slots!

      Unless the directions specifically say not to include a cover letter, you’re not NOT following directions.

    7. Nic*

      I think your logic is good there. I recently applied internally and submitted a cover letter. In this case the people doing the interviewing know me, but if it had been a department where I wasn’t known that could have been a helpful boost. Not to say it wasn’t even with people who know me; I was able to highlight things they don’t see in my day to day that would be pertinent to the other position.

      Good luck!!

    8. JulieBulie*

      More often than not, in situations like this where the instructions seem incomplete or vague,, I consider “following instructions” to be a losing proposition. I agree with your decision, and I feel that a hiring manager would have to be awfully petty to hold a cover letter against you.

    9. MillersSpring*

      Yes, include in same PDF. I have done this in the past. Only upload PDFs, not Word because it can be edited.

  17. DecorativeCacti*

    I would like to know if anyone has taken classes through Coursera and if you/employers consider it a legitimate way to learn.

    I have my eye on a couple but don’t want to end up basically putting an ITT Tech or Phoenix University equivalent on my resume. Thoughts?

    1. Christy*

      I mean, take the class so you learn stuff, but don’t bother putting it on your resume, if you ask me.

      1. Newby*

        Exactly. It is a good way to learn things, but it isn’t a degree. I have found it very helpful but I only put how I used the skill I learned on my resume, not the course itself.

        1. DecorativeCacti*

          I already use the skill in question on a limited basis but I want to move into using it on a not-so-limited basis. So I would just be supplementing and formalizing (is that a word?) my knowledge. What I know now was learned on the job in a kind of hobbled together manner.

          1. Toph*

            You don’t need to formalize it though, and I don’t think this type of course would actually formalize it. If your resume currently indicates some familiarity with The Thing and after taking the course you become very comfortable with The Thing, then you could change your resume to make that more clear. If one couldn’t tell by reading your resume whether you’re kinda sorta familiar with The Thing or if you are totally comfy and experienced in The Thing, then completing the course won’t change your resume at all, but will boost your skills and thus your candidacy.

      2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        Yes, this. I don’t think it helps to list Coursera classes. To be honest, I’ve seen candidates take formal classes through University Extension (seen as a more legitimate education provider than Univ. of Phoenix), and it looks strange/off. It basically looks like the applicant thinks that the courses are very important and that they somehow signal pedigree. As an employer, the skills are more important to me.

        List the skills and competency levels, but don’t list the coursework. For many skillsets, it’s ok if you learned it on the job or in an informal manner as long as you can accurately assess your proficiency. Even if you had a skill that requires certification to prove proficiency, I don’t really care how you qualified for the certificate—I only care that you have it.

        1. Becky*

          I recently sat in on an interview where the candidate had a year and a half resume gap due to moving from a different country to the US and getting a visa to work in the US. When asked what she did in that gap she mentioned, among other things, online courses to enrich and expand her skill set (she didn’t name the specific source–could have been coursera, could have been code academy or something else) –it isn’t something that I think would have been appropriate on her resume, but it was certainly appropriate to bring up at that point. If there are specific things you have learned that can apply to a interview question or such, by all means bring them up, but it isn’t really something you list on the resume.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      We had a resume come through that had a bunch of these classes listed and we thought it was odd. There was no relevant work experience and no traditional education…not even a certificate from the community college. Anything would have helped legitimize these freebie classes. But you don’t know if they even finished the class.
      If you have a solid work background or traditional education, then I could see adding this class if it was in a specific area that the position required.

    3. Beth*

      It depends.. a single class, I’d say no. A certificate or something, maybe. I have seen a few job postings that reference “knowledge of X skill, including from MOOCs” or something like that, implying that they thought Coursera counted.

      Personally, I received an online paralegal certificate from a program that wasn’t ABA approved, and is primarily known for its use by inmates for learning paralegal skills. I have no legal work experience, so when I apply for jobs at law firms, I list it at the bottom of my resume under “continuing education” — for me, listing it at all says “Hey, I am so interested in this topic that I did an online certificate, that I completed at the same time as my ‘real’ degree!” But the fact that I put it at the bottom, and not with my “main” education, says, “Hey, I know this isn’t totally equivalent to an actual degree, don’t worry.” One recruiter at a law firm told me I should list it higher up, which I thought was strange, although I’m not applying for actual paralegal jobs, so that could certainly have something to do with it.

    4. Alex*

      I wouldn’t put the course on your resume, but if you actually learned a skill from it, put that on it.

      1. Jillociraptor*

        I would say to not even include it unless you can demonstrate that you can successfully employ the skill. I took a physics class in college, but ask me to explain anything related to physics and it’s gonna be a rough day for all of us. A possible exception is if it’s an entry level position and you want to show that you at least have a little background in the topic at hand.

        1. DecorativeCacti*

          The class in question is related to what I already do but it’s deeper into the subject. So, say I currently proofread and edit teapot designs but want to move more in the direction of the actual designing (which I already do on a limited basis). I’m having trouble finding a continuing education course that doesn’t require previous degrees in teapot designing so I am trying to get further knowledge however I can.

    5. Alli525*

      I’d say don’t put it on the resume, but if it’s a natural fit to include it in your cover letter, definitely do – and be sure to mention any relevant skills in your interviews too!

    6. CC*

      I’ll buck the trend and argue that it depends at least a little on the field. I work in software development and I see Coursera/other MOOC courses on resumes a fair amount, especially for roles where we hire mostly people who are newly transitioning into the field. It doesn’t prove that you’ve mastered a technical skill, but it at least demonstrates a sustained interest (especially if it’s in conjunction with related projects) and certainly won’t count against you if you’re a strong candidate otherwise. And if you are faking your technical skills, you’ll get busted in the phone screen regardless. :)

  18. Audiophile*

    Happy Friday!

    It’s payday for me, which is always fun and exciting until it comes time to pay bills and then you have that moment, at least I do, where you think “where did my paycheck even go?”

    No real weekend plans, still trying to coordinate my vacation for next month. I’m getting a laptop from work, so I can work from home during bad weather. I’m excited about the prospect of that.

    1. DietCokeHead*

      I call pay day money exchange day. The money comes to me and then I send it to its various final destinations.

      Yay for working from home! I have a laptop and could easily do my work at home but my company does not allow work from home for hourly employees.

      1. Audiophile*

        I like your way of thinking. I thinking I’ll start using this and calling it that around work.

        I understand your jobs hesitance in letting hourly employees with from home. They have very few ways to monitor how many hours that you actually work.

  19. The Photographer's Husband*

    I’m currently a copywriter with but am looking to change careers, as I’m just not passionate enough about writing for marketing/advertising to be really great at it. What other careers are out there that would utilize the same type of skills? I thought Project Management might be a good alternative, but I’m curious if anything else is out there.

    For clarification, these are what I’d consider to be my skills gained from working as a copywriter:
    Excellent writing/communication skills
    Good attention-to-detail and organization
    Good research and interviewing skills
    Comfortable with (and really enjoy) public speaking/presenting
    Passionate about making an impact on people’s lives and building into/developing those around me whether professionally or personally
    Deep knowledge/understanding of the real estate industry

    1. hermit crab*

      What about grant-writing or proposal-writing? That could be a way to apply your communication and organization skills to an organization whose mission you support. Community colleges, public libraries, etc. often have short courses on grant-writing where you could pick up some basics and see if it seems appealing.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      I’m a project manager, and I think that you could potentially move into it if you focused on the real estate field. My cousin works for a real estate developer as a PM, but she came into it by being a PM for commercial projects for a big telecom company. (Basically, she managed construction of retail stores for the company.)

      Otherwise, I think it is hard to break into PM in an unrelated field without direct PM experience. (Even with direct PM experience in one field, it’s not easy to move from, say, construction to IT.)

      1. The Photographer's Husband*

        Interesting. Thanks for the insight. I’m definitely going to look into PMing in more detail It’s not a field/role I know a lot about, but judging from what the PMs I’ve worked with do, it seems like my skills would translate fairly well.

    3. GarlicMicrowaver*

      What about copywriting for the marketing department of a hospital? It’s not very “advertise-y” and you’re doing good for humanity.

      1. The Photographer's Husband*

        That’s not a bad idea, but I think ideally I’d be getting out of copywriting. Still something to keep in mind though, I sort of like the idea of working in a hospital.

    4. the.kat*

      How do you feel about fundraising? This sounds like the raw skills to work in Development or Fundraising at a non-profit.

      1. The Photographer's Husband*

        I’ve thought about that, and I suppose this might be similar to grant-writing/proposal-writing that was suggested above, but now that I see it in this light, I am not real keen on the idea. I hate asking for money/stuff personally, so I can’t really imagine doing it professionally. I’m sure it’s much different, but with what I know of it, it doesn’t sound that appealing.

        But I greatly appreciate the comment/suggestion!

        1. Audiophile*

          If it works for a larger organization, chances are good that your wouldn’t be directly asking for money. The org I work for outsources all their fundraising to a firm, the firm creates, does the copywriting, tests, and mails the campaigns. The donations come to us directly and occasionally I have some donor contact, but I’m not directly asking for money.

    5. Dee*

      Public information/outreach for a non-profit? I interned at a performing arts organization, and it involved writing press releases, editing program notes, putting together the program magazine, organizing events with the performers, some educational outreach, and so on.

    6. Bostonian*

      Teaching/training was the first thing that came to mind (hits all the bases except… real estate, I guess)

      1. cornflower blue*

        Do people have to take classes to become a licensed Realtor? Teaching said classes would count!

    7. JBPL*

      You sound like a librarian (other than the real estate thing, I suppose). I’d love to have someone like you at my reference desk or helping with our marketing.

    8. Optimistic Prime*

      What about market research, user experience research, personnel psychology/industrial-organizational psychology, etc.? Bonus points if you have a social science degree. I am a UX researcher and my job requires all of the above, except for the real estate stuff.

      1. LS*

        What about UX writing? UXBooth explains it simply – “UX writing is the act of writing copy for user-facing touchpoints”. I think it would be a great fit for your skill set. I’m a UX generalist and I’m seeing more and more need for writers who understand UX.

    9. MillersSpring*

      In my experience, copywriting is a great entry to mid-level job in marketing. Yes, some people make a career out of copywriting, but you also can take that experience and apply for a job as a marketing manager, PR manager, corporate communications manager, social media manager, etc. Then the copywriting becomes just one task out of many. You’re managing projects and analyzing metrics more than actual writing. Also, you often end up editing more than writing.

  20. T3k*

    Well, I’m supposed to have an interview early next week, but I haven’t yet got the e-mail with the interview information (they do this weird thing where they send a confirmation email, I respond saying I got that, and then supposed to send me the details). So I’ll probably end up calling them this afternoon if nothing shows up, otherwise I won’t have the information until the day before my scheduled interview.

    Also getting nervous about if I’m going to hear from another place. Long story short, I know someone who knows the people there and talked to them about it, and so I know they’re expecting to get the hiring ball rolling very fast (they want someone in before the new school year starts up). I know I’m not a guaranteed sho0 in but just to hear something would be nice.

    1. extra anon today*

      This exact situation happened to me once. I think I got the email at like 5:55 on Friday night for a Monday interview. It was stressful!

      1. T3k*

        Oh god, that would stress me out to no end. I’m practically having to sit on my hands right now to keep myself from calling, just in case they plan to do it this afternoon.

    2. Bostonian*

      Well, from the inside of things, considering the fact that I just today got an invite to interview a candidate for Monday, the place you are interviewing with might not have the schedule ready yet. I don’t think it would hurt to follow up now, but you might not get that information until the day before the interview. (And this isn’t necessarily due to a general lack of organization; if there are a lot of different people that need to be scheduled for interviews, it could take some coordinating.)

  21. Jimbo*

    Just found out through Linkedin that the previous person who held the position I am interviewing for next week only held it for ten months. That is a yellow flag for me which indicates potentially a problem with the boss, the work environment, or just a bad fit (which may or may not apply to me if I get the job). What questions would you recommend to ask in the interview to determine if this short tenure is a red flag about the boss, department or organization or not really? Would you recommend reaching out to the person in their new job or would that be strange? FWIW I checked out the org’s Glassdoor reviews and saw no consistent pattern of complaints about organizational dysfunction.

    1. straws*

      Perhaps you could try inquiring about how long employees typically stay in the role, and what types of roles they move onto next?

    2. MechanicalPencil*

      Honestly, it depends on your field, and you also have to consider that the other person may have had personal situations necessitating their need to leave, particularly since you can’t find any causation via Glassdoor. I’d certainly ask why the position is open though.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        My predecessor only lasted 3 months. I was cautious when interviewing, but it turned out they were fired for stealing. No one could tell me while I was interviewing, but someone told me a while after I was hired.

    3. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I would be very weirded out if a candidate for my old job messaged me on LinkedIn asking me for the inside dirt, unless I happened to already have a relationship with that person.

      I think it’s fine to ask why the position is vacant, or what the organizational challenges are that someone in this role might face, or what the boss’s management style is.

      But, to me, 10 months is not that big of a yellow/red flag so long as the interviewers are able to satisfactorily answer these questions.

    4. T3k*

      Are there any other past workers you can find that held the position to see how long they were there? I learned too late at my last job (aka, after I started) that they’d gone through at least 3 designers in just a couple months. The red flags I missed was not asking how many held the position before, the fact that they wanted to hire me during the interview (means they typically don’t do their due diligence and just need someone to fill the spot that may not work out after a few weeks), and of course you can always ask why the position opened up. But the good news is you have glassdoor reviews to look through (I’m assuming more than a handful) and if you don’t see a pattern of dysfunction, it could be a sign the person left for other reasons.

      Also, I wouldn’t message the person unless you know them (or they’re friends with someone you know). If I ever got that kind of message from one of my successors, I’d be giving a serious side eye if I left for personal reasons rather than dysfunctional.

    5. dyinginbiglaw*

      I usually ask the common career trajectory of people who held the position and why the last person left. Both have given me really interesting answers! For example, one had left to open an event barn (wedding venue, etc) on an apple orchard! If they say someone left because it wasn’t a good fit, you can inquire what traits area good fit, etc.

      1. dyinginbiglaw*

        I will say read the room before you ask these questions. If these people seem touchy about people who leave, don’t ask (and also that’s a pretty big red flag, imo).

    6. Carla*

      I was burned twice by jobs where the managers pretending like everything was going great, but the company was hemorrhaging employees–people would leave weekly. During the second interview for my current job I straight up asked them about the turnover rate. I also asked if the position I was applying for was brand new or if it was filling an existing position. Mine was brand new, but if they said it was filling an existing position you may have room there to ask about how long past employees have stayed in the role.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      I had 3 people in 8 months doing my job before me.

      Knowing this what made me take the job?
      When I spoke to my boss she was very candid about where the problems were.
      I realized that I could help with those problems. And I was impressed with her open discussion of the problems. No head games going on. No rose colored glasses.

      Also in speaking with the boss, I could see that we were of similar personalities. I could see that we had similar work ethics and it looked like we would match up well.

      I was very impressed that she had a plan to get me training. That told me she understood the learning curve would be steep.

      For my own part, I made a commitment to getting through the learning curve. It was tough but I knew I could ride it out.

    8. Rhodoferax*

      I’d say at the interview, ask “Why is this position available?” It’s a pretty common question, and in a case like this the answer will hopefully be something mundane like “The last person decided to follow their partner to a hippie commune in Australia.”

    10. Optimistic Prime*

      I’d ask how long people typically stay in the role or the last few people have stayed around. I also generally ask something like “when people leave, why do they typically leave?”

  22. Kristinemc*

    When do you give up on having an employee complete a certain task, and just acknowledge that they won’t be able to do it?

    We have an employee that is new-ish to the admin/accounting side of things. She’s been here for over 6 months, and we’ve trained her on a lot of our processes.

    There are certain monthly tasks that she does that she makes errors on almost every month – sometimes they are the same error, sometimes not. I’ve tried walking her through the task, sitting and doing it with her, giving her a list of items to look out for.. I’m not sure what else I need to do in order for her to realize what she needs to look for.

    We like her, she has a good attitude, and there are other tasks she does for us that she does a good job on, so she is definitely capable of doing the job. She’s not overloaded, and has time to do the task correctly – I’ve emphasized with her that taking the time to do it accurately is more important to us than her finishing quickly.

    Currently, I’m reviewing the task each time, before questions are sent out to other people, so that I can catch her errors, but ideally, she would be able to bypass me on these tasks and just ask questions directly.

    My only other thought is that I either take her off the task completely (which isn’t ideal, as someone needs to do the task, and we don’t have another person that can take it on), or I give her a list of things to check for each task, and make her give me that checklist with the completed task.

    Am I missing any other options on how to train her to complete this? I feel like I am failing as a manager. She says she learns more by doing, so I try to give her verbal and written guidance, let her try the task, and then go over it with her, and have her fix it.

    1. New Bee*

      Can you have her lead the error analysis? Either a broad conversation about why she’s making mistakes and how she can proactively avoid them, or in the moment have her reflect on individual mistakes and where she went wrong.

    2. WellRed*

      I don’t know what the task is, but can you instead of reviewing it with her, can you flip it so she’s reviewing it with you?

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Do you ask her to build a plan not to make that mistake again?
      If you need her to do the work then it’s better to say so very soon. Let her know that it is part of mastering the job.

    4. TheImpossibleGirl*

      When I work with people who do this I help them build a checklist of the task steps including things to be reviewing along the way. Grow it as needed.

      1. Chaordic One*

        I love having a checklist of the task steps. It really helps a lot when you are learning a new job or taking on a new task, dealing with a new computer system or something like that. Unfortunately, lots of times my supervisors would get really annoyed with me for taking a few extra minutes to document the task steps. But still, it really works for me and it saves a lot of time down the road.

    5. Toph*

      To me, six months of continuing to do it wrong, assuming this has been on her plate the entire time, is too long. If it seems like the number of errors is decreasing (but still too high), maybe she’ll get there, but if it’s a revolving door of mistakes, some repeated some new, and you’ve been over it and done all the things you mentioned, I would recalibrate my expectations. At that point she’s probably either unwilling or incapable of improving at this thing. You mentioned she’s good at other stuff and therefore capable of doing the job, but if the job requires this and there’s no one else’s plate to pass it to, then she’s not really fully capable of doing the job. If you haven’t already it might be time for a hard talk to see if that makes a difference. If it’s expected to be hers and there isn’t a good person to shift it to, it’s probably time to make sure that’s super clear to her. If it still doesn’t improve in probably another two months, I’d say your options are seeing if there is something else currently on someone else’s plate that you could swap this for so it gets done. Is there anything you could take from someone else to give to her before giving this to them? If that’s not feasible then I’d come to terms that she’s not actually doing the job. But it depends on how unmovable an object these tasks are.

      In my experience when working with people who couldn’t do a major component of their jobs, and were given the “but she’s new!” treatment for over a year, my experience has been six months is about when you should see that comfort level sinking in. If their improvement velocity isn’t spiking sharply at that point, it’s probably going to flatline and more chances and more training and more coaching and reviewing of mistakes is unlikely to fix it.

    6. Hillary*

      Once a month is hard – the tasks are just far enough apart that it’s easy to think you remember it when you don’t actually. I won’t get into detail about how many mistakes I made during my first six months doing financial closes (and I already did finance work for a living).

      Is there a way to give her more frequent practice with less pressure? Maybe ask her to redo some old ones from before she started handling them and develop her own checklist for her mistakes.

      That said, some people who are very good at other aspects of work aren’t great at details or accuracy. I work with people who are fantastic at their jobs and aren’t allowed to anything resembling data entry because they get details wrong. I couldn’t do their jobs even if I wanted to.

      1. MillersSpring*

        Amen to this. It’s hard to remember the steps of something you’re only doing monthly. I really agree with the suggestion to have her do her own checklist. But at this point, you’ve got to warn her that you’re sensing the role is not a good fit for her and she could be reassigned or terminated (if those are possibilities).

        You’re not failing as a manager. She says that she learns by doing, and she’s had (presumably) six times to learn this task. You’ve addressed this in multiple ways, and as a manager, you have the responsibility to ensure that the task is done accurately. You’ve spent a significant amount of time training and coaching her, when what you need by now is just for the task to be done accurately with little managerial intervention. At this point the failure is hers.

    7. Mark S*

      Take this from a man who has committed more errors than I wish to admit.

      The main reason why employees make mistakes is either a missing piece to the puzzle (something they do not fully understand) or a misunderstanding of what’s being asked. It’s usually the first. Try giving an example of completed work (error free) or show your employee how you found those errors. There is also the issue of conflicting/ambiguous information. I applaud you on being a good manager though!

  23. ANON4Today*

    Do you know of any websites to find part time admin. / office manager type of work? I usually check craigslist and indeed.

        1. ANON4Today*

          Yes, I have contacted a few temp agencies. They don’t get many part time assignments.

  24. intern supervisor*

    My intern is, um, not a great writer. I probably think too highly of my own writing skills, but I honestly kind of cringe when I read items that they’ve prepared for me. Their grammar is *technically* mostly correct, but very verbose and convoluted (lots of passive voice). I’m torn as to the extent to which I should go into documents and rewrite them, versus giving feedback primarily on content. These are mostly internal documents – if their writing was going out to the public I would not hesitate to rewrite in order to represent the organization well. But I still don’t know if I want my manager to see this writing, since it is reflective of me as well as the intern. For context, this is my intern’s second year here (first on my team), they are paid, and they have just finished a graduate program and are applying for entry level positions, including one on my team. This is my first time supervising an intern.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Writing is generally hard to teach in the amount of time a manager has available, but you’ve named two issues here that are among the easier writing problems to give feedback on — the passive voice and the verbosity. I’d say give very clear, direct feedback on those things and see what happens (including when she turns in a document, giving it back and telling her to edit out all instances of passive voice, and/or telling her to cut the length in half, or whatever makes sense).

      1. Snark (formerly Liet)*

        Also, I think a lot of people think verbose, convoluted language sounds more professional. In addition to telling them to cut the length in half and cut the passive voice, you can say, “Professional writing needs to be simple, direct, understandable, and functional. Your writing is so convoluted that it comes off as unprofessional. I need you to focus on communicating ideas in a straightforward and direct manner, and I suggest you focus on shorter sentences and a more thesis-driven paragraph structure.”

        1. CityMouse*

          I actually had an employee I was training push back when I edited down his verbosity. It was really tough to get it through that using 10 words when one was necessary was a bad idea.

          1. Snark (formerly Liet)*

            Yeah, I’ve had the same pushback, to the point that I had to make it clear that this was a job performance issue and that I was willing to fire over it. And I was.

      2. blackcat*

        Yes to this! I have taught students where it just took one conversation and an example of the type of writing I want (so I can say “X, not Y”) and BAM! Good writing appears next time. It may not be so easy for you since you’ve already been working with this intern for a while, but I do think this is an easily coachable thing.

        In my experience, the hardest part of teaching someone to write is how to organize ideas and have good “flow.” As a teacher/professor, I have to address that sort of stuff. But I don’t think that’s your job as a supervisor.

        Also, I have a “story” (relayed to me by another teacher, probably more of a teaching fable) about the passive voice:

        Student: “Should I use the passive voice?”
        Teacher: “Tell me, which of the following sentences is more clear? ‘If this paper is written in the passive voice, ass will be kicked.’ or ‘If you write this paper in the passive voice, I will kick your ass.'”
        Student: “The second one?”
        Teacher: “Indeed! In the first, it is entirely unclear from where the paper will emerge. Both the subject and object of the ass-kicking is unclear. In the second, there is no room for doubt.”

      3. intern supervisor*

        Thanks for the response – I have to remind myself that direct feedback is a kindness as it’s the most likely way to improve. I think it’s that *I* would take it personally if my manager criticized my writing but I think that speaks to my own vanity more than what is normal.

    2. Courtney W*

      I would definitely just give direct feedback. It sounds like they might be stuck in college writing mode – my English professors generally require passive voice and prefer complex, very detailed writing. I get that isn’t something to carry over to general writing in the workplace, but some students may need that spelled out for them. I think you’d be doing them a favor by having a discussion with them about it.

      1. Lady Jay*

        O lord. Those were bad English teachers then. In general, passive voice is only used for scientific writing, where the results need to be stressed above the scientist getting the results; active voice is clearer & packs a greater punch.

        And don’t get me started on English teachers who tell students to never use the word “I”. Grrr.

        1. blackcat*

          This even depends on the scientific sub-field. In my sub-field, we are gloriously pro-active voice. Because it *does* matter that I (a fallible human being) did X, while someone else (also a human) did Y, and these are consistent because of Z (which is good for both of us, yay!).

          Such explanations are much less clear in the passive voice. And the passive voice in scientific works thing is a pretty recent phenomena. If you read some of Einstein’s stuff, for example, you’ll find plenty of “I” and “we” throughout.

          1. Lady Jay*

            Hurrah! I love hearing that science sometimes uses the active voice. I like reading science stuff & find it more accessible written in active voice.

        2. intern supervisor*

          My spouse protested when I complained to them about my intern’s passive voice usage – spouse has a physics undergrad degree so their response was that passive voice is requisite to formal writing. I definitely gave them a hard time about that.

        3. Had it up to here*

          At my high school we couldn’t use any form of the verb “to be” in papers. It was hard to do, but it did reduce our use of passive voice.

          1. Jessica*

            My freshman college professor limited us to 3 uses per page. A very handy tip, honestly.

      2. Optimistic Prime*

        Yeah, you know, it’s funny but a lot of college and academic writing is actually bad writing. I used to write scientific journal articles when I worked in academia and those articles are full of passive voice, verbosity, and jargon. Writing reports for my current job is so refreshing compared to that.

    3. Lady Jay*

      I actually love hearing that you’re having this problem. I teach my students to avoid verbosity & the passive voice, so I’m glad to hear that people working “real” jobs (I teach writing, of course I’m bothered by bad writing!) are bothered by it too.

      But my satisfaction doesn’t help you. As a recovering wordy writer, I’d suggest you might try a word count . . . and hold to it religiously. My professors in college had both minimum & maximum length requirements on papers. My first draft was *always* super long, and I had to trim and trim and trim in order to get it under the maximum requirement. This effort taught me how to use words efficiently.

      You could also try a little “modeling”. Sit down with your intern (or create a screencast for her) and show her how you personally would change her writing. Then expect her to change the writing similarly: not necessarily using the same methods, but reaching the same goals (active voice, efficient language use). This could take 10 minutes; that’s about how long meetings with my students are.

      There are also plenty of resources about this online with a quick Google search. Direct your intern towards them. She can even take practice quizzes to improve her writing skills!

    4. Lily Rowan*

      If you have time, what I try to do is rather than re-write myself, add a lot of comments like “This paragraph is unclear – please simplify,” or literally highlighting all the passive voice and getting them to re-do it themselves. It makes every document take way longer to get out the door, but I don’t know that people learn from accepting my tracked changes.

      And then make sure you’re really clear on what’s good enough, even if not up to your own standards.

    5. JBean*

      Seconding the recommendation for providing feedback. How else are they to learn? And nothing is more demoralizing than submitting something, when given little direction (that might not be the case here), and then your supervisor simply rewrites it without giving you feedback. If you don’t build the capacity of your team members to do certain tasks, you end up doing those tasks. Over time, you will not be able to effectively delegate and your ability to move to more senior-level work will be hampered.

      Also, send them resources on plain writing. Let them train on something concrete.

      1. intern supervisor*

        This is a great point. I unfortunately dropped the ball here with the first assignment they did for me – I tried to restrict myself to giving comments rather than rewriting (I definitely know that it sucks to have someone rewrite your work!), but I wasn’t direct enough, I think because I felt bad about criticizing their writing since I know I take my writing skill personally. By the time they gave me their second draft, I didn’t have time to give more feedback on their writing since I needed to pass it on to my manager, so I edited it myself. Next time I’ll work on being more direct from the get go.

        1. MillersSpring*

          Don’t feel bad about criticizing their writing, when it’s literally your job to supervise their work, including their communications. When I’ve had interns or other junior staff, I’ve had them sit with me while I edit their work, and I comment aloud on why I’m making each edit, or I’ve printed it out and sat with them to explain each edit. They may cringe, but ultimately they find it helpful.

          Also, +100 to providing resources on clear, concise writing. A couple of classics are Elements of Style by Strunk and White and On Writing Well by William Zinsser. I also have enjoyed a couple of books by Paula LaRocque, the former writing coach of The Dallas Morning News.

      2. LibbyG*

        If you can give the intern an example of what you’d like to see, that’s both effective and efficient. It’s hard for wordy writers to see words and phrases as extraneous, but a good, clear example might help them a lot.

    6. Anon16*

      I had a manager that sounds a lot like you, but I was a full-time employee, not an intern! The problem was more designing materials (brochures, pamphlets, etc.), though she had some issues with my writing style. I think it’s very, very related to academic writing and is something that will be improved upon over time. As others mentioned, I don’t think it would be hard to fix.

      Every time I write (professionally), I re-read the writing and try to reduce as many unnecessary words as possible. Could you encourage her or him to read back their writing and do the same? My English teacher in high school always recommended removing “is”, “was”, etc. from writing to encourage active voice. I recommend showing them examples of writing you do like and seeing if you can get them to replicate it.

      Also, I encourage you not to re-write the work! This (I believe), really did such a disservice to the organization. My manager started designing/writing brochures entirely on her own because she didn’t feel she could explain what she wanted. As a result, she was overworked, I didn’t have enough to do, and I felt stunted professionally. I never improved because she never gave me room to improve. I also would push back on the idea that this reflects badly on you, unless you reviewed their writing samples before hiring them. That’s just my $0.02, I’ve never been in the management position in this scenario.

      1. intern supervisor*

        Thanks for this reminder. I definitely don’t want to be that manager so I will take to heart your advice. I do think the intern’s work products reflect on me – although my manager will likely recognize that it’s not my writing, they will expect me to ensure that the product is up to the organization’s standards. That doesn’t require it to be the best writing, but it does need to be clear and communicate effectively.

        1. Anon16*

          I totally get it. It’s also not personal, writing is a skill – it takes time and work to master. I think it’ll only appear personal if it’s believed it’s personal. I understand, I take my writing very personally too. It’s an art form, but when it’s for a professional reasons, it needs to be seen more as a skill than an extension of yourself. Hope that helps and good luck!

    7. JustaTech*

      My whole company had training on these two specific things (passive and wordy) so while it’s not just your intern, it does need to get fixed and they can’t fix it if they don’t know it’s a problem.
      If you want two rules I got with 1) No passive voice. 2) No sentences of more than 20 words (unless the name of the thing you’re talking about is 5+ words long).
      I might also say “In the working world you don’t need to write in an academic style to prove you’re smart. You show your skills by being clear and concise, which is harder.”

    8. MS*

      Also if you have examples of documents with similar tone that you’re happy with, that would be useful to provide. I’ve had 3 different managers at essentially the same job and they all had different expectations about writing.

    9. over educated*

      Ask your intern to run their writing through Hemingway app dot com before sending! It highlights passive voice, overly complex language, and long sentences, and it estimates reading level. You can just tell the intern to aim for no red highlighting and whatever grade reading level is appropriate for your internal communications and it will probably help quite a bit. (I find it helpful for my own writing, and I also find it works better than “I’ve been writing for the public for years, trust me” when I have to explain to technical specialists that the language they’ve provided me is not appropriate to publish for general audiences in its current complex form.)

    10. Ghost Town*

      It sounds like your intern is used to writing for the academy and not the real world. Academic writing can skew to verbose, passive, and convoluted (especially when you’re trying to reach a minimum word count on a deadline!). My UG and first MA were in literature, and I still find myself writing as though I were writing for grad school. Close to a decade in university administration and 6 education courses later, I’m finally getting better at writing succinctly.

      Does the intern have good examples of the kind of writing you’d like to see? I found examples to be very helpful when I was first transitioning from MLA to APA writing (and citation) styles.

      If you have the time to do this exercise, it might be helpful. Take examples of their writing that contain these errors and rework them to better and/or best alternate options. Now, either show them the examples side by side so they can see the difference or go through an editing exercise with them, holding your reworked text back till they’ve already taken a turn at editing the passages. Feel free to crack a few jokes about writing for school versus writing for work.

    11. Humble Schoolmarm*

      I think some specific feedback would be kind here. It’s not entirely impossible that this would be a new critique for your intern as many teachers tend to encourage students to write more and use more complex vocabulary. For most students, that takes their work to an acceptable level of complexity, but the odd student gets carried away and becomes a verbose and convoluted writer, as you’ve said. It’s hard for teachers to push back on this since, technically, the students are doing what you’ve asked. This is a great opportunity to explain that, in a work setting, clarity and conciseness are more important than word count.

    12. Em Too*

      I’ve asked people to cut a specified section by half without losing any info (they did and it was much better). And I mentioned that’s how I edit my own work too so hopefully didn’t come over as too patronising.

    13. Chaordic One*

      In my first jobs my bosses frequently returned my letters and documents to be revised (complete with red copy editor marks). It was a bit frustrating and disappointing at the time, but I really learned a lot.

  25. BDS*

    How do you handle a lax culture at the job?

    I work in an environment where people are very comfortable not doing their jobs, not being detailed or efficient and it’s a daily issue.

    We had new printers installed in November and many are having major issues. It’s finally gotten to a point that people are talking about maybe replacing them but nothing is moving on that and people are more apt to make a joke that ‘someone must have gotten a golf trip to have these put in’ than to actually deal with the issues.

    I was asked to reserve a car for my manager and given the corporate car rental account number. I asked two people in Finance who provided it if I needed anything more than that, any special instructions – they both didn’t think so. Well without a pin and not being authorized on the account, there’s nothing I can do, I of course find out on the phone with the rental company after wasting time getting transferred and trying to get things done. I reached out afterwards and was told someone will get back to me from the Finance dept, they will “ask around”. I bet I won’t hear back today (a Friday, and you want people to work??? are you crazy?!?!) so I made a regular reservation (manager is traveling tomorrow) – no one cares either way.

    Every day, every single day things take so long to get done and it’s really starting to get to me. How do you detach and not let it phase you? The whole environment is like this and so I have never ‘gotten in trouble’ due to the inefficiencies, I always work around it and people don’t get in trouble here, but I just don’t want to work like this day in and day out.

    Thanks.

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      Your workplace is not going to change. Start job-hunting? That’s really my only advice. I’m sorry.

      1. neverjaunty*

        Agree. Lax cultures like this have a way of becoming parasitic – not only are they lax, but when you’re efficient, they expect you to do all the work and then become even more lax.

      2. JulieBulie*

        I agree also.

        In the meantime, just keep in mind which things are your responsibilities and which things are the responsibilities are someone else. Sometimes I used to get stressed out trying to solve problems that other people were responsible for, but in time I was able to force myself to let the failure be theirs.

        I don’t know if that will work for your situation or not. It worked for mine, but it was very difficult to do and I’m glad I don’t have to worry about that any more. (Different employer where people actually want to get things done.)

    2. LAI*

      I used to work in a similar environment, and it drove me crazy. I had to learn to let go of some of my own standards and accept that sometimes things wouldn’t get done, or wouldn’t get done well. I tried to use it as an opportunity to show others that things *could* be different and be a good model even if I was the only person working hard. I ended up building a really strong reputation for myself, but eventually, I did leave for somewhere where I thought that would be more appreciated.

    3. zora*

      This is a perfect example of what we were talking about on the “culture fit” thread yesterday. Some people prefer a place where they can just phone it in and stuff basically gets done eventually, some of us (me included) want things to be operating at a high-level and feel better when we can actually get things accomplished every day. This is not a good fit for you! I would start looking for a job now, but knowing that you are okay to stay at your current job and aren’t desperate to get out is a major benefit to you! You can take your time and look for something that is really great.

      And this is something to ask about in interviews! Think of some ways to ask questions about this kind of thing so you can really know that the culture fit in the next place will be good for you.

      1. JulieBulie*

        I’ve been wondering for years exactly how to gauge this in an interview. What is the tactful way of asking if people in this office are a bunch of lazy slugs looking for an industrious new host?

    4. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

      Oh wow – I totally feel your pain. This is exactly how things worked at my last two jobs (both at smaller companies – one tiny-family owned the other just a small firm). I felt like I spent more of my day figuring out work arounds than actually doing work.

      Honestly I could not detach or not let it phase me. I hope you can figure out a way to make that happen, but I just couldn’t.

      I just knew I had to move on. What did work for me was screening for a large company that runs “lean” (in the hopes that “lazy” employees would be let go/driven out) and one with a certain degree of structure (I wanted to work for a company with solid policies and procedures in place, but that was also thoughtful in its approach and valued efficiency). It seemed to work – my current company is so great! I feel like I have the proper support so that I can focus on my actual job instead of playing receptionist/admin/PA/IT/HR/MacGuyver/Janitor/Detective/Referee to just get the smallest things done.

      Also, I do value the resourcefullness that those companies taught me. Maybe you could try to focus on that (reframing your current experience and all)? In a more functional environment you would (will!) be seen as an ingenious, go-getter.

      1. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

        This is really helpful to read for me. I am currently in a place where its shall we say, far less than efficient, and its driving me up the wall. I am struggling mightily with this, and my last place was like this too. Screening for running lean sounds like a good plan – my buddy just got a new job (we had been at the prior job together) at a very lean place and so far its working out great for him!

        I thought it was just me being cranky but I really do have a drive to get things done and ensure they are impactful, and if you aren’t in a place that supports that well… I guess you end up where I am at mentally right now.

        1. JulieBulie*

          Just keep in mind that a small staff is not in itself evidence of “running lean.” In the aforementioned place where I worked, I thought they were running lean, but it turned out that they had literally nothing to do most of the time. So they became even leaner, but that only meant that there were fewer people watching cartoons on YouTube all day.

    5. The Queen of Cans & Jars*

      I wish I had the answer to that! My company is very much like that and it drives me up the wall! My only solution is to job hunt.

    6. A Person*

      If the workplace perpetuates the lax culture, not a lot.

      At my job, the higher ups don’t care as long as it looks like a good job is getting done. Unfortunately, it can be very difficult to tell the difference between an actual good job and something that looks like a good job but is actually ok at best especially in the limited contexts we are likely to be observed (See also: A good job done well can be near seamless in its execution so unless you know its happening, it’s not always easy to observe). Compounding things are a couple of ‘part of the furniture’ staff that have a grip on the office culture and well, I’ve been fighting an uphill battle for the past 15 months.

      Due to circumstances, I’m basically biding my time until I can leave. I’m in the process of getting the next qualification so I don’t want to leave as I need to have accrued holiday and management cachet.

      Things that have helped me:
      Picking a few hills that I intend to defend seriously and letting some stuff go (the second part is a work in progress)
      Not engaging with co-workers I find draining unless I need to
      Giving in to the occasional sarcastic/pointed comment and passive aggressive impulse
      In situations where I need other people to do something, being willing to be very clear and explicit how I want things done and providing lists/materials as needed
      Documenting BS

      I’ve somewhat accepted that I’m probably regarded as the office bitch but one, for me, it’s the price of making sure I keep doing a job I’m proud of and two, the clients deserve to get good service, that’s what I intend to give them.

    7. Chaordic One*

      I totally understand where you are coming from. It sounds like my old job at Dysfunctional Teapots, Ltd. It was never really clear to me if I was better off trying to teach someone (who would probably be quitting in another month or so) how to do something the should have been taught, or whether it was quicker to just do it myself.

      The other really bad part was having to follow up with people who didn’t get their paperwork returned or approved in a timely manner. No one else there seemed to have any sense of urgency about the work, even it meant losing sales.

  26. Sandi pariso*

    My boss asks me every week: what are you managing?” I find it difficult to say interesting & new things each week when I’m always managing the same thing.

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I’m confused why your boss doesn’t already know what you’re managing as presumably, your boss is the one who assigns it to you? I think I would start falling back on, “as usual, I’m managing the Teapot Project. Everything is going great [or whatever the actual status is].”

    2. Emi.*

      Can you give updates on that thing? Like, “I’m still managing the Teapot Lacquer Development Project, and this week we closed out that pigment issue.”

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Consider it similar to “What is going on this week?”
      Your answer could be “I am doing A, B and C like last week. But A has issue X and B has issue Y which prevents me from doing a lot about finishing C and C has no problems. I think that X and Y will be solved Tuesday or Wednesday. Meanwhile I will fill in with finishing C, maybe I can get that done in between.”

    5. Jessica*

      Is this a request for you to sound exciting and innovative, or more of a status update? The former sounds kind of excessive, but the latter is pretty standard.

      If it’s a status update, I’d just do a quick run-down of everything currently on your plate.

      “I’m wrapping up Project A, which just needs some final copy edits before it goes to the publisher. Project B is 50% complete and is currently having mock-ups completed. The first review is on Monday. Project C just kicked off, and I’m working on the research before I start on the initial draft.”

      Because sure, your job is pretty much the same from week to week (mine is, too) but you no doubt have individual tasks within that job, so talk about that. You might even consider sending your boss a weekly email with “5-second update” that includes a bulleted list detailing the statuses of the things you’re working on. It keeps your boss in the loop, but isn’t a hassle to put together.

  27. LAI*

    I just started a new job, and my physical office space is in a different building than the rest of my team. I can use the kitchen and printer in their building but that means walking downstairs, outside, and back upstairs. I asked about access to these resources in my own building, and was told that it should be fine to just use them. However, as far as I know, no one has told any of the staff in my current building about this, so I’d just look like a stranger using their area. Should I contact the office manager myself and ask? This feels so awkward!

    1. anna green*

      Yes, that’s what I would do. Either ask the office manager or if there are people in the copy room or kitchen etc. just starting talking to them and explaining who you are and why you’re there. They’ll likely get used to you pretty quick!

    2. MillersSpring*

      I would go ahead and use the resources in your own building. It’s 100% justifiable, and they will get used to seeing you. And you could introduce yourself! Word will get around.

  28. Snarkus Aurelius*

    I need help trying to deal with a co-worker who has anxiety. I’m at my wit’s end, ready to give up on interacting with her.

    Ever since she got hired, she has been trying to prove herself and it’s turning people off to the point they don’t want to work with her, which perpetuates this cycle where she needs to prove herself to them. She inserts herself into things, and she spends all her mental energy on the process rather than the substance. It’s pretty common for her to spend hours planning a simple meeting only to have nothing to say on the subject matter because she hasn’t thought about it.

    Things got worse when my employer got sued over an incident that occurred the week before she was hired. We had meetings to discuss the lawsuit as well as closed door meetings, nothing out of the ordinary, but she called me that night convinced she was going to get fired because she was sure she was being talked about in those closed door meetings. I know she doesn’t mean to be self centered, but it was a selfish thing to think about.

    On top of all of this, she works nights and weekends, expending energy writing and rewriting simple stuff like one page documents. Again, she misses the substance of things because she’s scared to talk to people she’s pissed off so her work is low quality. So she’ll do it herself and get in trouble for it.

    I finally drew the line on emails over the weekend, especially last weekend. I told her I don’t work outside business hours and I’ll look at whatever she sent on Tuesday. That will result in her stewing in her thoughts and rewriting things over and over again.

    Seriously, I’ve never seen someone work so hard with little reward. And she keeps doing it!

    How can I redirect her anxiety to another source???

    1. Christy*

      Stop accommodating it. Telling her you’d look at her email on Tuesday was a great step.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Yeah, I think the thing here is that the onus isn’t on you to find a way to redirect her anxiety. It’s just to set appropriate boundaries for the way it impacts you. Beyond that, it’s really her thing to manage.

    2. Snark (formerly Liet)*

      That’s not on you. I’d establish some boundaries – I will not read your emails on weekends, I do not want you to call me outside work hours, I don’t have time to reassure you about this right now.

      When she blows a meeting, I think that’s actionable feedback. “You spent too much time planning the meeting and not enough time working on the subject matter. Moving forward, I think you really need to work on the substance, not just the process.” “Working endlessly on this document is not productive. You need to reach out to Wakeen and get his input.”

      Personally, I think she sounds like a basket case, and I think she’s going to be let go.

      1. Carla*

        I’d appreciate avoiding terms like “basket case” about people with mental illnesses.

        1. Snark (formerly Liet)*

          Her mental illnesses are entirely notional at this point, and Alison would prefer that we not assume that diagnosable mental illnesses are in play unless we’re told they are. And basket case does not denigrate mental illness; it’s used broadly to describe organizations and people who are completely dysfunctional and disorganized. It sounds like she is.

          1. Louise*

            It’s an offensive term. It came from WWI to describe soldiers who lost limbs and now signals mental or physical helplessness and a loss of function. As someone who struggles with pretty severe mental illness but tries to keep it out of work, if I found out someone called me a basket case, I would be very offended, mortified, and angry. It’s also a really good way to diminish the very real emotional struggles that people with or without mental illness go through.

        2. an.on*

          also, the origin of basket case is about soldiers losing their limbs and literally having to be carried around. it’s not historically or even generally regarded as a slur against mentally ill people – it’s about something that’s out of control, unable to move/work independently, etc.

          1. Louise*

            Right… and to metaphorically imply that someone with a mental illness or someone struggling with intense emotions of out of control and unable to work independently is incredibly offensive and can lead to a culture where people who do struggle with mental health issues (diagnosable or not) are afraid to speak up for fear of being perceived as helpless or incompetent.

    3. NPOQueen*

      Do you have examples of what good, quality work looks like? If she’s afraid to talk to people because they might not like her, it might be helpful for her to have a resource to check. But also, you can set expectations. If she spends hours planning a meeting but doesn’t think about the substance of the meeting, can you tell her how to structure her day? As in, she has three hours before the meeting, so one hour planning it and two hours figuring out discussion topics?

      I’m saying this because I assume she’s young and might not know how to set these boundaries up herself. However, if she’s an experienced worker, this might be far more difficult to solve. You don’t want to get in the habit of hand-holding, or have her come to you for every little thing. I’d also want to set boundaries on how long she can work (nights and weekends shouldn’t be acceptable in the long term, she’ll definitely burn out). But as others have said, it’s ultimately her responsibility to deal with this. If you are giving guidance and she’s not listening, that’s the bigger issue.

    4. AcademiaNut*

      You say she’s your coworker, so you don’t manage her, is that right? If that’s so, all you can really do is set limits on how you behave (you don’t have time to reassure her, you will not answer emails, phone calls, texts or telegrams outside of work hours), and to lower your expectations of what you can get from her – assume that she’s not going to contribute useful content in meetings, for example. It might be appropriate to bring this up with her manager – particularly that people are avoiding working with her, because it’s so draining.

      If you are her manager, I think it would be most kind/useful to address it head on, from the practical viewpoint of how it is impacting her ability to do her job. And if you have an EAP, make sure she knows she can access it to help with work related anxiety. Would it help to give her shorter deadlines? If she gets an assignment in the morning and has to submit it that evening, she can’t re-write at night. Or when there are discussion meetings coming, ask her to give you a written bullet-point summary related to the content of the meeting before hand (again, with a fairly short deadline), to focus her attention on important things.

      1. JulieBulie*

        The shorter deadlines are a good idea. I used to sweat over things a lot more when I had more time to do them – and the extra time was not necessarily well spent. Having to do things much faster taught me how much I was really capable of doing in a day, and it made me a much more effective worker.

  29. CatCat*

    A person on my team is suddenly gone this week. I found out via perfunctory email that Tim is no longer working here. I’m in a satellite office so I don’t really have a good sense of anything underlying at the main office. It makes me anxious :-/

    1. Lumen*

      That’s rough. :( Maybe send your manager an email asking for a time to talk (over the phone or Skype, preferably, if in-person isn’t an option).

      Things I suggest in that conversation:
      – Don’t focus on your anxiety, but on your goal.
      – Presumably your goal is to be more aware of/involved in the office, team, and what’s going on.
      – Use Tim’s departure as an example of this, not as the main point of the discussion.
      – Come to the table with a few ideas of your own about HOW you could be more ‘in touch’ with the main office, and ask your manager for some additional ideas. You two can brainstorm and collaborate.

      On your own, it may be worth taking some time to write down or talk with a friend or professional about why this causes you anxiety, and what you can do to manage those feelings so they don’t impact you at work as much.

      1. CatCat*

        Good tips, thanks! Because to me, this looks out of the blue, I really just want to know that if my job were in jeopardy, my manager would be crystal clear about that.

        1. Jessica*

          In my company, an abrupt departure accompanied by an email saying “Effective immediately, So-and-so has decided to pursue opportunities outside of Company. We wish them well on their future endeavors” = they got fired.

    2. On Fire*

      Do you feel that your workplace is generally functional or dysfunctional? Has there been a high rate of turnover (historically/lately)?

      In a generally functional workplace, there is probably a good reason for someone to be abruptly gone. And your manager may or may not be able to talk about it. For example, in my workplace, someone was dismissed, and literally the only thing they could say was “Sally no longer works here.” I only knew because of personal connections that Sally had been retrained and counseled about X issue, to no avail. So although it seems out of the blue, it may really not be. Unfortunately, you may not ever know that.

      Lumen has good suggestions for the conversation. I emphasize the mention of making this conversation about how to get YOU more plugged into what is happening in the office (this has both work-social benefits as well as strictly professional – you’ll know more about professional development opportunities, promotions, etc., if you’re plugged in).

    3. MillersSpring*

      Tim could have resigned with two weeks notice, but your manager felt it important that he not have access to critical systems (or clients, whatever) during the notice period, so they had him leave the same day.

      Or Tim could have gotten counseled/been on a PIP, so that it wasn’t out of the blue for him.

      Or Tim could have had an urgent personal issue that necessitated resigning without notice.

      My point being, you really can’t be anxious that your own job is at risk. It’s simply too likely that Other Reasons are the case.

  30. Anonosaur*

    I interviewed for an in-home care type job. The parent was the interviewer, and I’d be working in the home. I didn’t disclose that I am in a same-sex marriage and I learned that the family is religious. I’m kicking myself. I normally would never worry about this but I feel like the dynamic is different when I’m working in the person’s home and there’s no HR to protect me and I’m working with their child. I got the job. I don’t think that the employer is going to be biased or freak out and fire me if they (the family) gets to know me better and it comes up in passing because they seem like they will be professional and may not even care, but there’s always that “what if” thing. There’s nothing to be done now and if I’m wrong and the family reacts poorly if they find out at some point, the worse thing that can happen is I’ll be out of a job. But I just needed a place to put this down because it’s been taking up residence in my brain.

    1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

      I mean, I am in a same sex marriage and I have had people react badly- but religious doesn’t always mean anti-LGBT.

      I had a similar problem to yours when I was in college; I had a job, in exchange for rent about 50% below market rate, in a campus ministry building. Easy enough, do yard work, clean, cook for weekly student meals. Well, I was already out to some friends at the time and was worried (some were Christian) that it would get back to pastor/boss and I’d be evicted if found out. So I nervously decided to beat that gossip and tell her.

      Her response was that God had obviously made me that way, so why should it matter or she care? And then she told me to finish th dishes.

      2. Chaordic One*

        I think that being out like this really does help promote LGBT equality. It contributes to minds being changed and hearts being opened.

    2. Falling Diphthong*

      In addition to religious not necessarily meaning anti-LGBT, a whole lot of people who might be anti-X as an abstract theory have no problem with a person X they actually know. The huge shift in opinions toward same-sex marriage (which isn’t just old people dying off, but every age group shifting about 10 points toward in favor over the past couple of decades) has a whole lot to do with people coming out. So rather than gays being mysterious people one has heard live in NYC, it’s the choir director and chief accountant and they’re all really boring and how would their getting married impact one personally anyhow yawn?

      1. Amber T*

        This. I think this is a really a really big struggle and detriment overall (“I don’t approve of *insert discriminated against group here* overall, but you’re ok!”) but it can work out in the individual’s favor.

    3. Temperance*

      To be totally blunt, if it’s an issue for them, they should be the ones asking about it.

      2. Newby*

        Can they ask about it? I thought that LGBT was a protected class (but I could certainly be wrong about that). I hope that they are not anti-LGBT but not asking about it is not a guarantee that it is true.

        1. blackcat*

          No, it’s not in the vast majority of states in the US. Some additional municipalities also have LGBT non-discrimination laws, but, by and large, it is 100% legal to fire someone for being gay in the US.

          1. Natalie*

            Additionally, anti-discrimination laws usually don’t apply to businesses under a certain size, which would absolutely include someone hiring one individual in their home.

        2. Temperance*

          Sadly, it’s only true in certain states and municipalities. We have no federal protections for the LGBT community.

    4. MS*

      Depending on my other job prospects, I would consider outing myself before starting. It would take up space in my brain until it does come up, and I feel like working closely with someone in their home and with a child it would be more likely to come up. I’d rather know up front if they’re uncomfortable with it than to be worried about getting fired or the dynamic suddenly changing later on. That said, a job’s a job and it sucks to have to think about these things.

  31. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    Earned sick and safe time ordinance just went into effect for my city as of the 1st! It’s pretty skimpy, but for my total work hours/year, I will get 5-6 days of PTO now.

    I am literally never missing work or seriously sick, so is it okay to use it for doctor’s appointments or a mental health day?

    1. ASJ*

      I say yes – I have taken some mental health days before (usually when I am literally so exhausted that I know I won’t be able to function at work) and typically average 3-4 a year. But since you don’t have many days, you might want to look at keep at least 1 or 2 until the end of the year… just in case you really do get sick.

    2. hermit crab*

      Nice! Good for your city (and you)!

      At places I’ve worked, doctor’s appointments (and dentist appointments, physical therapy appointments, etc.) have always been a 100% acceptable use of sick time. Mental health days can be more of a know-your-office thing — I think there are a few posts about that specifically. (That’s mental health days of the “I need a break to avoid burnout” variety, rather than the “I can’t work today because of mental health symptoms” variety; the latter always counts as a legit sick day in my opinion.)

      1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

        I know, right? I’m excited. My church was actually a major backer of the ordinance- they saw it as a social justice issue, because for them it comes down to not forcing people to choose between caring for their families and having enough to eat and pay rent.

    3. Emi.*

      I would say probably, but check the ordinance to see if they have specific rules about it.

    4. InternWrangler*

      If you live in the same city as I do, the ordinance actually spells it out. Yes for doctor’s appointments and to treat mental health symptoms.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Please do this. I very seldom miss work myself. So once every 18-24 months I take a day. Usually it is snowy or I worked a long day the day before, something like that. But yes, take a day every once in a while.

    6. Nic*

      Every job I’ve worked that has included sick time has told me that it’s expected to be used for doctor’s appointments. One place actually DID NOT want us using it for unexpected illness, and we were required to give multiple days’ notice when we were going to use it.

      Congrats on the time! Please use it for your health.

  32. Pepper*

    I had a meeting with my manager this week where I got some (warranted, in retrospect) feedback. I was essentially told that a) I needed to focus on being time to work, b) my productivity levels had dropped, and c) I need to work on presenting a friendlier/more helpful attitude (particularly so that no one ever felt they were being a burden by bringing things to me). This was initially presented to me as a “chat about workload”, but I noticed that some other people in the office also had meetings set up – so it may, in fact, have been a quick check-in/review for everyone, even though my manager’s never done them before.

    I’ve taken this feedback to heart, or tried to at least. For the past three days, I’ve made it a point to get up ten minutes earlier so that I can leave the house earlier and get to work about five minutes early (two of three mornings I was the first one here, the third morning I met another coworker in the hall). A coworker remarked to me today that she’s noticed I’ve been getting in earlier, which made me feel good. I’m also trying to be more aware of how I’m speaking and reacting to people (I tend to think before speaking, so I’m trying to learn to bite my tongue while also being more welcoming), while also focusing more on work.

    My question is, does this sound like something I can come back from? This is my first long-term job (what I’ve had before was temp work/contracts) so I feel like I’m navigating new territory and I legitimately don’t know if this is “your reputation has been permanently tarnished” territory or more of a “bump in the road you can easily recover from”. Compounding the issue is that my manager is on vacation for the next two weeks, so it’s harder to “prove myself”, though I realize this is something that you can’t prove you’ve changed overnight.

    My other question is, can I ask for a meeting in early August to “check in”? Is that too soon? She doesn’t seem to do one-on-one meetings often, and when she does I suspect they tend to be bad news. So does it seem needy, I guess, to want to make sure I’m progressing well or that I’m performing to her level of expectation? I struggle with anxiety (and this has been a very hard week for me, I’ve basically been on a “you are trash and suck” spiral since our meeting on Tuesday) and I don’t want a reputation as someone who needs to be ‘handled’ or anything like that.

    1. Dahoo Dores*

      I think you can come back from this, definitely. Congratulations on taking steps to improve the situation!

      As for the check-in meeting, I’d say wait till the end of August. Just keep trying your best in the meantime. Good luck!

    2. MechanicalPencil*

      Given that your manager is out for 2 weeks, asking for a meeting in August is too soon. I would give it until at least the end of September so that you can show a pattern of sustained “good behavior”. Continue making an effort to be on time/early to work. Work on being more productive and completing projects/tasks in a timely manner with good efficiency.

      The thing I try to remember as both an employee and a coworker when people seem to be short/not as welcoming is that people have things that they’re going through in life, so maybe their temperament is part of that. We all have bad days/weeks. While that may not be the case with your situation, it does apply in that I don’t think this will follow you around permanently, especially if you take strides to improve how you interact with people.

      I’m also a “think before I speak” person, so when I feel like I’m taking an especially long time to respond, I say something to the effect of “hang on a sec, I’m thinking” or…something. Or make a “Well, if we do…” and then trail off. Something to acknowledge that yes you did hear them and aren’t just staring at the person awkwardly while you think about how to respond.

      This feedback is not the kiss of death for your job. It’s just feedback; we all get it. You’ve already mentioned that you weren’t the only one to get called into the office. Take what you heard, work on it, and know that it’s all things that are fixable.

    3. LQ*

      I would definitely ask for a meeting to check in. I don’t think early August would be too soon, I wouldn’t do it immediately after she gets back from vacation, but absolutely by early August. And yes, I think this is something you can come back from. It sounds like you are making efforts and as long as they become habits, I think it is entirely reasonable to overcome.
      I had to overcome something similar not for myself but my work area, getting people to come to us because it had previously been that people who brought problems weren’t treated great. It was a lot to overcome but we’ve swung so hard we’ve gone too far the other way. Entirely possible to overcome, but takes some effort and sometimes being a little more than normal. (I have to check myself still when people bring a really complex or pita problem, so I make it really clear that even when I seem annoyed or more often distracted that it’s about the problem and I’m really happy they brought it to my attention.)

    4. Falling Diphthong*

      You can absolutely come back from it.

      The annals of AAM have many anecdotes of people who had X bad habit right up until it became a problem in an early job, at which point they managed to change.

      And I agree with Pencil that you want to give it two months to demonstrate a sustained change.

    5. DaisyGrrl*

      I think this is something you can come back from in a reasonable workplace with a reasonable boss. Your boss gave you feedback, and now you have a better idea of what she expects and can adjust your behavior accordingly. She didn’t put you on a PIP, or tell you to pack your things.

      That said, one thing almost every manager wants to see from their employees is an ability to take feedback constructively and act on it. If you improve and meet her expectations, she will be happy. You’ve already mentioned that people have noticed your improved timeliness, so keep up the good work!

      As for requesting a check-in for early-mid August, I think that’s reasonable. It doesn’t have to be long (15 mins should do). At the check-in, your goal should be to thank her for the feedback, express openness and commitment to changing your behavior, explain what you’ve been doing, and see if you’re on the right track or if you need further course correction. If it goes well (and it should), no further follow-up needed.

      It takes maturity to accept feedback and act on it with grace and poise, so tell your anxiety to shut up. You’ve got this!

    6. NPOQueen*

      Haha, I received this exact feedback from my boss. I came from an environment where they didn’t care when you came in, as long as you got your work done, but it seemed like this new job had the same attitude. But then I missed an 8:30am meeting (my start time was at 9am though), and I definitely got reprimanded. However, it did no damage to my reputation. It’s good that your coworker noticed though, those things tend to get back around to your boss, one way or another.

      I’d say this is just a bump in the road. Continue coming in on time, but setting a meeting in August might be a bit too soon, only because she’s on vacation. Maybe look toward the latter half of August or early September, just to give her time to evaluate you. Though anxiety often clouds your judgement, if it were a really big issue, she probably would have said so. I also have bad anxiety and I’ve obsessed over meetings and talks and my own mistakes, only to find out that no one else thought anything about it. Work hard, and check in with your boss. If you’re new to working permanent jobs, setting up weekly/monthly check-ins is not a bad idea, just to see how you’re progressing overall, not just for your attendance.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      FWIW, it sounds like you are handling this just fine and so that means YES you can come back from this. It’s not the end of your reputation. Matter of fact, you keep doing what you are doing and you might get a solid rep as a person who is approachable and willing to address problems. That is a GOOD thing.

    8. Jessica*

      If other people also had meetings, it sounds to me like it could be part of an office-wide recalibration after a general trend of people getting a little too comfortable. In my experience, some periodic level-setting is pretty normal, and even healthy. In your case, these are all very measurable items that you can tangibly demonstrate successfully.

      I personally would keep up the trend for 2-3 months before asking to check in. It’s easy to put in a special effort for a few weeks and then slack off again, but it’s a more powerful message to have kept it up long enough to have not been a fluke.

      In terms of seeming more helpful, I work in a pretty helpful office culture, and people do a lot of the following: 1) Sending out emails saying, “Hey, I’ve got some free time while I wait for this project, anyone need a hand?” 2) When someone helps, the helped person invariably thanks them, fairly specifically. “Thanks for helping me on that email thing. I really appreciate it.” 3) When helping someone else, finish up with, “Just let me know if you need anything else from me.” 4) If someone needs help, but you’re in the middle of something or not available, “I’m currently working on XYZ, but I’ll be finished in about 10 minutes, can I stop by then?” Which lets them know when you *will* be available. Or if you just can’t break away (which happens!) then, “I really have to focus on this right now, but check with Wakeen, he should have that information for you.”

      It all sets expectations and also makes people feel like their efforts are acknowledged. As a result, we all get along pretty well, and things get done! And it takes almost no time to say these things, either, but those few extra words make a difference.

  33. First day*

    I start a new job on Monday! I’ve had a few weeks off to decompress and now need to get back in the swing of things. It’s been a while since I’ve had a first day of work, and I don’t know very much about the new position (kind of taking a leap of faith that I’ll like it, but career-wise it’s undeniably a great opportunity). What should I keep in mind on my first day, or bring with me? Anything you’d suggest doing this weekend/next week to prep myself/mitigate some of that first-week fatigue that often happens?

    1. peanutbutter*

      I recommend bringing an afternoon snack for energy. Usually by 2PM, I’m drained on the first week of the job

      1. twig*

        And your favorite Headache medicine! I usually get a headache the first day or two at a new job — just from the sheer amount of information that I’m taking in. (I’m not normally a headache-prone person)

    2. Jessica*

      Plan your first day outfit and your lunch, if you plan to bring one, the night before. Whatever you don’t need to do in the morning will give you extra time to get ready. Go to bed early and make sure you get a full 8 hours! In fact, go to bed early all weekend so your circadian rhythm is on track Sunday night.

      Make sure you have two forms of ID in case you need to fill out official documentation for whatever reason. If it’s a place that issues badges, wear something that looks good in photos. (E.g. Clothing in solid colors or subtle patterns as opposed to large florals, etc.)

      Expect to not know things. You’re new and that’s to be expected. It feels awkward to not have any context, but you’ll learn that quickly enough. Don’t be afraid to ask questions.

      1. Chaordic One*

        Yeah, the kind of things you’ll need to fill out an I-9 form (usually your driver’s license and your social security card).

        When I started my new job I had to list beneficiary information for the 401k plan and for the company provided life insurance. They wanted the names, addresses and social security numbers of my beneficiaries which wasn’t something that I had at my fingertips. (I had to call my sisters to ask them their social security numbers).

        Fortunately, they didn’t want the beneficiary information the first day, which gave me some time to research the different investments that were part of the retirement plans offered.

  34. peanutbutter*

    Story Time! What’s the oddest thing you’ve seen a coworker during a video conference?

    My company is pretty casual and has a fair amount of remote workers. Some of the departments will insist that people have their cameras on during a phone call and as a result, I’ve seen people do laundry in the background.

    1. Junior Dev*

      I took an online community college course and sometimes the instructor’s cat would wander on-screen.

      One of my coworkers works remotely and we sometimes hear his toddler in the background.

      1. blackcat*

        My cat is the worst about this when I work from home and do web-meetings. And if I shut him out of the room, he just yowls. Maybe 2/3s of the time, I can get him to sit quietly on my lap if he’s in the same room. The other 1/3 of the time, he must be rubbing the monitor (which has the webcam attached), or smack between me and the computer.

      2. an.on*

        my cat occasionally makes an appearance in my video conferences. my boss’s boss once stopped a meeting to comment on her presence (positively, not that it was a problem.) she laid down on the back of my chair with her head on my shoulder and stared into the camera with me entire meeting. she’s usually not interested but that day she stayed the entire time. :)

        1. catsAreCool*

          This wasn’t on video, but recently while I was in a work meeting (I was at home, calling in), my cat threw up on some of my stuff, and started doing this while I was unmuted (I muted the phone before people heard much of it.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      I have several coworkers who work remotely. One time we FaceTimed a colleague so she could participated in an onsite training. When we were all saying hi to her, she had to duck out of the frame to rush to the bathroom (pregnant and nauseous).

    3. The IT Manager*

      A man’s video came on during a telecon accidentally; he was sitting at his desk shirtless.

      My laptops video camera is covered.

    4. Falling Diphthong*

      My dog knew that I was talking to people inside the computer (context: the past few times this was my husband, as we skype when he’s on overseas travel, and daddy loves her and will talk to her on those calls), yet these people were not paying attention to her, and so she joined in with a long comment on the theme “no one is petting me.”

      Fortunately everyone laughed.

    5. JustaTech*

      I had a classmate who’s office smoke alarm low-battery beep was going off in one of our calls (everyone could hear it and finally someone asked whose it was). The weird part was in our next call several weeks later it was *still* beeping. I could not imagine how he could ignore it all day every day for weeks!

    6. Kowalski! Options!*

      Not a co-worker, per se, but when I was still doing language instruction and writing coaching over Skype, I had one guy whose index finger spent a fair amount of time up his nostrils.

      I just told him not to use the camera any more because the video was eating up too much of his bandwidth.

    7. cornflower blue*

      During my last online class (so technically not work, I guess) my professor had a huge grandfather clock, and when it would toll the hour, his beagle would howl along with it in the background. Everyone had to pause for the caterwauling.

    8. Chaordic One*

      In one of my previous jobs, one of my duties was to turn on the camera and monitors for video conferences that were originating from the company headquarters. If there were going to be a lot of people in our office attending I’d adjust the camera to show everyone present, but if it was only one or two people I’d focus the camera on those people or that person.

      One time I set up the camera a woman who was the only person from our office attending the video conference. She must have forgotten about the camera being present because afterwards she was a little upset with me because people at headquarters had seen her yawning and scratching herself during the conference and afterwards they teased her about it.

    9. Nic*

      I didn’t see this, but a friend of mine has a green cheek conure who sits on his shoulder all day while he works from home. Including on video calls.

      As someone who has birds, I cannot fathom trying to get a meeting done with that, even with a relatively quiet bird.

  35. extra anon today*

    I am fairly new to my office and I am in a very quiet, reserved group. There is another group (from a different department) that sits near us. Whereas my supervisor is generally cordial and mostly makes requests and comments via email, there’s is the opposite. Whenever he speaks to his two reports, he is berating them, being extremely condescending, and often times just MEAN about things that don’t even matter. He has been especially bad this morning and I want to say something but I don’t know who I should approach. We work in government, and I’ve never seen this behavior tolerated at other gov offices where I’ve worked. I know my supervisor is also overhearing this but she is very non-confrontational, so I have never heard her speak of it (that doesn’t mean she hasn’t reported it, but I know she’s never addressed him about his behavior directly). He is senior above me in a different department, so it seems like none of my business but I have to hear it every single day and it is stressing me out! If I were either one of those two I would have filed a complaint already. Should I contact HR and have my concerns on file to back them up in case they have? I’m not sure what to do.

    1. jes*

      I’m curious to know what others think about involving a supervisor or HR, because if it’s distressing to you, that’s definitely an issue – you shouldn’t have to listen to other people being mean, even if it’s not directed at you. However, one other thing could be to approach his reports privately and say, ‘I heard what he said there/the other day, and was taken aback by his words and tone. I just wanted to check in with you to see how you’re feeling, and how things are going’. Showing a supportive ear and acknowledging what you see as happening could open up a conversation, and let them know that they have support if they decide that they want to raise it.

    2. Frustrated Optimist*

      Rather than addressing the situation directly (which is not mine to step in, so to speak), I might try just being extra kind and supportive to these particular colleagues. I’m not sure how much your work overlaps with theirs, but if it seems appropriate, you might also add that you appreciate their work, etc.

      I’ve been both the abused worker, as well as witness to abuse of others by a manager. Totally understand how it’s stressing you out!

    3. MillersSpring*

      Document, document! Keep a little journal in your desk drawer. “Friday, 07/07, 10:30 a.m., Fergus yelled loudly at his team in my area. He used the F-word and was ranting about spout alignment. I later saw one of his team crying.” Etc.

      Or during one of his rants, you might rush over and ask, “I heard yelling–is everyone OK?” Repeat ad infinitum.

  36. jes*

    Advice warmly welcomed! What is the etiquette for thanking an interviewer for whom you don’t have an email?
    I interviewed for a job I really want with the senior manager (it was a screening interview – the full interview comes later, but we had a nice conversation), but it was arranged for by the organization’s administrator. Do I (a) use logic to deduce the email address of the senior manager and thank her (I feel like this is creepy), (b) write to the admin and ask her to convey my thanks?, or (c) do nothing?

    1. Morning Glory*

      I am the admin (assistant) in this scenario on a regular basis. It’s pretty common for candidates to ask that I pass along a note to the interviewer, that’s what I would recommend in this situation unless by administrator you are referring to a much more senior position. It’s not a big deal to forward it along, and it avoids that awkward ‘how did you get this email’ dynamic.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      I was in this situation while interviewing for my current job. I just emailed the admin and said “Please pass on my thanks to Jane, Fergus, and Felicity for the interview. I really enjoyed getting to know them and am looking forward to discussing the role more.”

    3. SL #2*

      Definitely write to the admin! Speaking as one myself, and knowing the other admins in the office, we’re happy to forward nice notes to our bosses, especially if you ask politely if we’d forward the note along because you didn’t get the senior manager’s email.

    4. Lily Rowan*

      I don’t actually think it’s creepy to deduce the email address of the senior person — if it even occurred to me that I had never emailed the person, I would just think they were smart enough to figure out that if jane_smith@company.com had set up the appointment, I must be lily_rowan@company.com.

      1. Jessica*

        Be advised that in large companies, there can be more than one person with the same name. I am Jessica.Commonlastname@company.com and there have been as many as 5 other Jessica.Commonlastnames employed at the same time. Subsequent me-s are assigned emails like Jessica.Commonlastname2@, 3@, etc. but people don’t necessarily have visibility to that subtle nuance. When in doubt, go for the sure thing and email the person whose contact info you already have.

  37. peanutbutter*

    My husband and I are thinking of relocating back to my hometown which is across the US. My husband can work remotely, so it will be up to me to find a new job back home. What are some things I should keep in mind while doing the job search?

    Some additional background, I work in IT in NYC and I’m looking to return to the Pacific Northwest. I do have contacts in the pacific northwest that I could reach out to for job leads.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I’d suggest leaving your address off your resume and just including a phone number/email address. A lot of people will dismiss an out of town candidate.

      2. msroboto*

        This is a good start but I found that people saw my last position on other state and it still works against you. I had never given up my current state cell phone number and had the same email account for years but it’s hard to overcome the you last worked in NY and now want a position in PNW.

        1. OtterB*

          When I was doing something like this, I put it in my cover letter as “expect to be relocating to [new place] for family reasons” which means they don’t have to guess about the change.

    2. zora*

      I wouldn’t actually just leave off an address or location, that actually can look odd like you are hiding something, and as msroboto said, they will guess when they see where your last position was located.

      I found the best thing was to bring it up in the first paragraph of my cover letter and be as specific as possible to make it sound like a foregone conclusion: “I am currently in the process of moving to [Town] by mid-September. I am extremely interested in this position and can be flexible with my move and start date, and am willing to travel at my own expense to interview.” Of course, only write those things if they are true, but the idea is to be really clear about the specifics of your situation, because that is much more believable. If you just say in passing “relocating to [Town]” most people will assume you want them to handle relocation and that you aren’t really local and it will seem easier to just move on to someone local.

      In my situation, my move date coincided with their desired start date, they did go ahead and pay for my travel for the interview even though I offered, and I got the job.

      1. jes*

        I agree with keeping your current location what it is, but making your goals very explicit. I’m doing the same thing right now, and have a line near the end of my cover letter that says “Originally from HOMETOWN, I am actively looking to return and am able to relocate immediately”. Once I made it clear that (a) I had lived there before so I knew the city and what it was like living there, and (b) that they wouldn’t have to wait for me to go through a lengthy relocation process, it completely changed and I started getting a lot of interviews in that city. That said, I also live not unreasonably far from hometown so interviewing there is expensive but feasible, and I also work in a sector where remote interviewing is relatively common. If they’ll struggle to interview it, that could still be a problem.

  38. Hershele Ostropoler*

    I suddenly remembered a job listing I saw a while ago, that asked for resume, cover letter, and two pitches. Completely reasonable, except that nothing in the listing gave any indication of the publication’s tone, subject matter, or name.

  39. ARB*

    I don’t have a driver’s license, and I want to ask in an upcoming job interview if that will be a problem for the job. What is the best way to bring it up? I would really appreciate examples of language I could use. The job description did not mention a requirement to have a driver’s license or a car, but due to the nature of the work, I suspect that this position will be expected to meet research participants at different locations sometimes (which requires driving in my city).
    (FYI I can reliably travel to and from the workplace, so that won’t be an issue.)

    2. extra anon today*

      I agree with Fabulous that it is just a straight forward question. You want to know as soon as you can so that if it is a requirement, you don’t get too far in the process before you find out.

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      You could also ask more broadly “Is there any kind of travel involved in this position?”

      2. Persephone Mulberry*

        Rather than “travel”, perhaps “off-site component,” or “location visits,” as when I hear “travel” I don’t necessarily think of off-site work happening entirely within the typical business day.

        1. Newby*

          That is a good way to put it. If there is, ARB can follow up with asking how often that would be required. If the distance is not too far and it is not too often, they may be able to use a taxi or uber without the expense being too high. If it is far or often that would probably not be feasible.

  40. Going Solo?*

    I provide specialized in-person services to a niche client base. I’m a FT employee (salary only, no benefits) working remotely. My employer is a small start-up, and there is only one other employee in my geographic territory – a supervisor who has another FT job and limited time.

    The company funnels new clients to me. They do an “ok” job on screening and a good job with invoicing/billing. There is high attrition in the client base, so a steady pipeline coming in has value. On the down side, I am essentially working as an independent expert without any opportunity to benefit from shared network, mentoring, etc. I also have to use company materials and follow company policies that at best, I don’t love (and at worse are a little embarrassing bordering on unprofessional). I’ve made suggestions for improvement before, and very little of my feedback gets incorporated.

    I am based in the US. There is no non-compete clause. In fact, employees are free to provide the same services outside of their employment or clients that come through the company.

    I’m thinking of starting my own business and consulting back with the current employer – switching to independent contractor for them for some clients. I’m looking for tips on negotiating this, handling existing client load, and pitfalls to be wary of. Also looking for scripts that maintain a good relationship when my motivation is:
    – wanting to be able to market myself, while not wanting to be ‘branded’ with their stuff/approach
    – maintaining creative control and ownership over new content I create
    – more flexibility in working with clients than their policies allow
    – believing that they are not pricing services correctly in our geographic market
    – disagreement about the amount of time different projects or client services take

    Thank you for your advice!

    1. Kristie*

      I saw that no one had commented. I don’t have any advice. I’m a school teacher, so I wouldn’t be helpful to you! But good luck with your idea of doing your own thing!

  41. Forensic scientists?*

    I’m curious to hear from anyone who worked or works as a forensic scientist. I realize there’ll be a lot of possibility for variation (especially between states, if you’re in the US like me), so I’m just curious to hear what kind of things you did each day, the balance of slow times and fast deadlines, the culture in your lab, etc. The prosaic stuff.

    One thing I’m curious about that I’d never ask about in an interview is cellphone/Ipod use. Is it generally unheard of to permit those in a lab? I’m wondering if the camera capabilities are considered a security risk.

      1. jamlady*

        It’s very similar. I’m in a related field that has way more jobs, and my field is also full of unemployed graduates.

  42. Dahoo Dores*

    I’m not very happy in my present position. There is literally nothing to do here. Sure, I could sit here and ride it out till I retire, but that’s a good 15 years in the future. I took the job because 1) I was unemployed for two years; and 2) I thought I wanted to pursue a master’s in the field, but found the work wasn’t for me.
    So I am thinking of applying for an office assistant job within the college for which I work.
    I’m wondering: Do I owe it to my supervisor to tell him that I’m applying? Suppose I don’t get the job, or I do the interview and I don’t think I even want the job. Will this hurt my relationship within my current department?
    I’m after more money and better working hours. I can’t get the hours within my department. I’ve been here five years and the place changes at the pace of frozen molasses.

    1. Lady Jay*

      Don’t tell your current supervisor! Over the winter, I applied to graduate school; it was a prestigious place, several states away, and would have meant the end of my current position. I toyed with whether or not to tell my boss, out of courtesy, and came down on the side of Not.

      I didn’t get into graduate school. I’m so thankful that I didn’t say anything; I would have strained my current working relationship for nothing.

    2. dyinginbiglaw*

      Don’t say anything until you have an offer in your hand. You could risk being seen as a flight risk which would potentially ruin your relationship or your work life as it exists right now.

      1. Dahoo Dores*

        Thanks, everybody. I’ve been leaning toward keeping my mouth shut anyway. I definitely will now.

    3. LaterKate*

      Wait, this is an internal transfer, right? In some companies, it’s a requirement to notify your current supervisor before applying, and in many others, your supervisor would be made aware, either formally or informally, at some point in the process. I would look into policies, and maybe discreetly ask around to find out what the case is in your place of employment. If your supervisor is going to find out anyway, it’s better coming from you.

  43. Ella Minnow Pea*

    I’m a new manager of a small team, and I’ve inherited an employee who unfortunately is just not a good fit for her role. I’ve worked with this person closely during the two years she has been here and she has struggled with meeting deadlines, being proactive when it’s called for, prioritizing her time, and understanding what types of things are/are not appropriate for our market (we’re in a creative field). As soon as I became her manager we met to discuss the problems and devised a course of improvement, and I have provided tools to help. She has made strides, but I need her to have a level of drive and industry savvy that I am not sure she can easily attain. Any tips for navigating this?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      If you’re pretty sure she doesn’t have the inherent qualities she’ll need to meet the bar for the role, you may just need to have a candid conversation with her about that and jointly figure out what to do next, which could be (a) transitioning her out of the role in some agreed-upon timeframe or (b) if she thinks she can do what you need, giving her a limited amount of time to show that (like a month, not six months). There are some good resources on this from one of my clients here (mostly written by me):

      http://www.managementcenter.org/article/talking-employee-performance-shifting-youre-terrible-heres-need/

      http://www.managementcenter.org/article/getting-away-from-a-check-the-box-improvement-plan/

      http://www.managementcenter.org/resources/coaching-sample-script/

  44. Skint Anon*

    Does anybody have advice on how to find short-term part-time work with flexible hours? I work a standard 9-5 job but am having elective surgery in a couple of months that’s not being covered by insurance. It’s going to be a major blow to my savings so I’ve been brainstorming ways to make some extra cash to offset the cost. As part of that I’ve been looking for potential side work (preferably stuff that can be done from home) but am having a couple of issues:

    1) It’s difficult for me to tell which companies are legit and which are scams.
    2) Over the next few months I’ll be working several weekends and a fair amount of overtime at my regular job, so the hours need to be flexible.

    Anyone have suggestions?

    3. dyinginbiglaw*

      I waitress part time. If you get in with a good restaurant, hours can be pretty flexible and the money can be really good. You’d have to know your hours ahead of time, so there’s no taking off work short notice. If you coordinate a set schedule and you just build those shifts into your calendar, it feels like blocked off time anyway.

      1. k.k*

        My only caveat to that would be to ask your doctor first. Servers spend a lot of time on their feet, so if you plan to be doing this job after the surgery, make sure it won’t impact your recovery.

        1. Skint Anon*

          Yeah I’m not going to be able to be on my feet much at all for almost a month afterward, which is why I’m mostly looking for at-home stuff (that I can possibly continue doing from the couch while taking recovery time off from main job).

    4. Maya Elena*

      I worked as an over-the-phone translator without any prior relevant experience, but very good language skills.
      I just applied online after finding the job on a job board. I got to pick my shift and just had to do a minimum of 16 hours, which I did across 4 days in even-sized blocks. I didn’t change the shift often (once or twice in 12 mos) but the ability to do so was implicit.

      I’d assume there are tons of customer service or other call-based jobs like that (e.g., credit card customer service or basic outsourced IT help desks).

      If you have specialized training as a nurse, social worker, billing coder, etc. you can almost certainly find analogous positions for your specialization, and for better pay than generic phone jobs.

      But expect the employment process to take a while, esp. if the company has federal agencies as a client.

  45. cornflower blue*

    Sooo grumpy today. Last week I cleaned out my desk area and took home a bunch of things I never used, including a spare pair of shoes. Today we had unforecasted downpours, and I had to wade through an ankle-deep river in my company’s parking lot. I have been sitting in soaked-through leather heels all morning. Grrrrr.

    1. Emi.*

      Arrgh, I’m so sorry! Can you take them off under your desk and stuff them with paper towels?

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      Ugh, it’s always the way! I took my spare lenses out of my bag and the next day I ripped a lens for the first time in years.

  46. Elle the Bell*

    A bit late to the party today… but does anyone have resources (blogs, books, apps, anything else) for people working remotely full time? I was able to move to a remote job with an office I was in for 2 years, but I’ve been struggling to stay connected to my team and my office since then. I knew that I’d miss the watercooler talk and off hand conversations, but it is really impacting how involved I feel and ultimately how valuable I feel as a contributor. There’s a handful of us that work remote and we support each other as much as possible, but just looking for other ideas and resources from others.

    We do already use an IM app and video conferencing for meetings (when it’s working.)

    1. ToodieCat*

      I worked fulltime remotely for a couple of years, and even though my boss (who had herself worked remotely fulltime) did her darndest to keep me in the loop, it was difficult. The two things that worked best for me were (1) scheduling regular trips to the main office, always centered on dates when we were having team activities. This happened about every four to six weeks. (2) Signing up for a course at a local college for a class that was related to my job (just so I could get paid tuition). I was a tech writer and the course was a linguistics thing. That course was a great thing for me because it got me out of my house and talking to other grownups about words.

      Today I have a better work setup: on Mondays and Fridays I get to work from my home, and Tuesday-Thursday I work at the main office. I actually find this is a better setup for me, because I need (limited!) human contact. I hope you’re able to find something that helps you, because remote FT can be tough, no matter how much laundry you can get done at the time time. : )

      1. Elle the Bell*

        Thanks! I think the regular trips to the office is a good idea… currently there only 1 all staff training per year but I’m close enough that I may be able to go in more often.

    2. Never Nicky*

      I agree about actually physically keeping in touch. I work remotely full time about 4 hours away from the rest of the team. I am the only person doing this – some people are closer and maybe work one or two days from home.

      I do an overnight about once a month for the main team meeting. I previously worked out of the office so I have an excellent relationship with many of the team. They are great at keeping in touch but we’re expanding and new staff aren’t quite used to me and the working pattern . Face to face is especially helpful with them.

      We also do a “10 at 10” every week – just a stand up meeting/conference call where we cover the top 3 things we’re up to.

  47. Henrietta Gondorf*

    What are the “best” answers you’ve heard to interview questions asking about a candidate’s weaknesses? What kind of information has that question yielded that’s been most helpful in hiring?

    1. extra anon today*

      I think the most helpful answers, regardless of the weakness itself, include an example of how that weakness has hurt them in their work in the past and what they did concretely to make changes and improve themselves. I think being able to recognize weakness and improve on it purposefully is an important quality in a worker.

    2. cornflower blue*

      I once sat in on an interview in which the candidate said he’d previously gotten feedback that he ‘didn’t seem to care enough’ about problems that came up in the workplace. He pointed out that he was a combat veteran, and he found people running around freaking out about things like deadlines to be melodramatic and silly (my paaraphrasing, I can’t recall his exact words).

      He did come across as a weird combination of overly stiff and overly calm, so hearing his background was useful in sussing out this mindset. He ended up being a good fit for a job under a manager who liked to leave his reports to work mostly independently. If we had placed him under the alternate option, a micromanager, I doubt it would have gone well.

      1. over educated*

        It’s ALL relative! I’m no combat veteran, but my old supervisor used to say she loved how I was unflappable and nothing could upset me…actually, I’m one of the most anxious people I know, and I hate uncertainty and worry about my career and future constantly! But when I worked for her I was also in a very stressful graduate program, and that job was my sanctuary where I felt competent and appreciated.

  48. Jessen*

    So I know this was covered in a more general post, but I have a fairly specific question. I’m looking to switch from one call center job to another. From what I know, the 2nd job is almost certainly a busier and more stressful working environment. My primary reason for switching is that I hate my benefits at my current job – I’m forced onto a high-deductible plan. Given that I have medical issues that require regular care, this is taking a giant chunk of my income. I honestly don’t care about either company either way, but I put in my time at work and do a good job, and I’ve had consistent outstanding monthly reviews as well as a commendation for catching an error that would have cost the company money. The new company would pay better and has better benefits.

    My question is, what do I do with the questions of “Why do you want to leave your current job?” and “Why do you want to work here?”

    1. Elle the Bell*

      What about focusing on the “challenge” of working at the new call center? Especially since you have outstanding reviews at your current role, you could talk about how you are looking for the challenge to grow in your role.

      1. Jessen*

        I’m worried that talking about the “challenge” when I’ve been at my current job for less than a year (and in my current position for only 6 months) might look a bit off.

        1. k.k*

          What’s the turnover at your job like. I did some work in call centers and they tend to be super high turnover. At one I was there 9 months, and had been there longer than anyone else.

          1. Jessen*

            It’s not as high as some, but it’s fairly high. A lot of it’s just being a call center – it’s the kind of work a lot of people take when they can’t find something in their field, or (like me) they’re trying to go back to school, or something.

    2. Rhodoferax*

      Maybe you could say “I’m on a temporary contract and I really want something more permanent.”

      1. Jessen*

        They know where I currently work, they’ll know it’s not a temporary contract.

        2. Rhodoferax*

          In that case, if the work is sufficiently different, maybe something like “From what I’ve seen, I think the work you do here is more interesting.”

          1. Jessen*

            Honestly it sounds like pretty much the exact same job I’m already doing, probably a little higher volume, but that’s about it.

            1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

              In that case, is the new company’s overall industry or product different? Customer service can sometimes be a good foot in the door to learn about an industry, so that’s something else you might be able to position.

  49. Jubilance*

    I’m pretty unhappy in my job and my family really wants to relocate, so I’ve amped up my job search. A former colleague told me about a position with her new company, so I applied and the recruiter reached out. We agreed to speak this morning and then… Nothing. I emailed and called, thinking maybe I had the wrong time, but nothing. Maybe she’s out sick? Either way, I’m bummed :-(

    Also related – if I talk to one more recruiter who is looking for someone with 5+yrs experience, and an advanced degree for a position paying $50k,im gonna lose it. I made more than that in my first job out of school, TEN YEARS AGO. Some companies are seriously out of touch.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      if I talk to one more recruiter who is looking for someone with 5+yrs experience, and an advanced degree for a position paying $50k,im gonna lose it. I made more than that in my first job out of school, TEN YEARS AGO. Some companies are seriously out of touch.

      That depends a lot on the location. Salaries in big cities like New York or DC are going to be significantly higher than salaries in Columbus, OH. You need to make sure that your expectations are in line with the regional norms.

      1. Jubilance*

        This isn’t a location thing, it’s an out of touch company thing. I’m looking in a large city (one of the top 10 largest cities in the US) with 2 degrees in STEM & 10+yrs of technical expertise. Some companies are simply out of touch with the market, which is why they have job reqs that have been open for months.

        1. Jessica*

          A lot of companies are also super cheap. My sister is in San Diego, and she was astonished at the number of start-ups and new companies that were offering egregiously lowball salaries for the skill sets they wanted. And these are new technologies and new companies, so it’s not like they’ve been around for 30 years and haven’t updated the job description since 2002. Ridiculous.

        2. Elizabeth West*

          That’s what I figure when I see job postings that have been up for MONTHS. They’re not paying enough. Around here, that’s basically the reason. And I keep seeing the same ones over and over. It’s because the good people they hire into the roles are probably leaving. There probably isn’t anything to advance to, either.

    3. Frustrated Optimist*

      I don’t think this is even about the specific *amount* of the salary you mentioned. I know exactly what you mean: Companies will want someone with an advanced degree, with years of experience, and a very specific skill set. Yet the salary is only above entry-level.

    4. AnotherAlison*

      I hear you. . .I think other folks here need to know that in a STEM field, with an advanced degree, $50k is insulting for a mid-level person, no matter where you are.

      Granted, I am in a field which is known for being a highly paid undergrad degree, but our new grads with BS degrees are making in the mid-60s. In flyover country.

      Good luck with the search (and hopefully the move).

      1. Anxa*

        I don’t think that’s a stem thing, but a subfield thing. There are plenty stem fields where mid 60s its entry level in flyovercountry, but mid to advanced in a high cop area.

    5. OtterB*

      We have a cartoon on our refrigerator door from the last time my husband was job searching. Recruiter, talking to potential employee: “We’re looking for someone with the wisdom of a 50-year-old, the experience of a 40-year-old, the drive of a 30-year-old, and the payscale of a 20-year-old.”

    6. Iris Eyes*

      Last time my dad was job searching in a skilled trade the pay range several companies were offering was lower than what he had been making in the early 90’s. Sometimes I wonder if companies forget the axiom that you get what you pay for…

    7. LabTech*

      I can relate on the wildly out of touch salary thing. I’m job searching too, and have been seeing lab tech requiring a chemistry BS and several years of experience at $15/Hr in very high cost of living major cities. Do they just expect us all to be independently wealthy or something?

  50. Anne*

    Slept through my alarm and woke up at 8:05 before a 9am interview. Managed to throw on a suit and get all my crap together and get out the door by 8:13, got to the train station just as the train was arriving, spent the ride drinking coffee and trying to slow down my racing heart, got to the stop at 8:40, put on makeup in the train station, and arrived at the interview right on time.

    I think I did a credible job in the interview, but mostly I’m just happy I managed to GET THERE ON TIME. Good lord.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      That is seriously impressive! Well done! You probably perform well under pressure. :)

      1. Anne*

        They want me to come back for a final interview!! (This was a second interview following a phone interview.) OMG today has been emotionally bonkers

  51. Aspie*

    I’m on the spectrum. Do you think it’s wise to tell people when starting a new job? At old jobs sometimes it helped people not get frustrated at me — but the people at my new job are also more mature.

    2. Falling Diphthong*

      This is sooooo office dependent, where the perfect answer in one office might not apply at all in another. Is there someone you can ask–your manager, or the person who has been there several years and knows the ropes and is helpful with your questions?

      I lean toward telling people because it can provide context, so rather than wonder “Why did new person do that out of the ordinary thing?” they can answer for themselves “because she has trouble standing for long periods” or “because she is on the spectrum” or “because she has a bird phobia.”

      (Thinking here of someone’s example of a senior manager who told people she had a bird phobia, so three years in when she suddenly tore out of her office they all figured it out and stepped out of her way.)

    3. Lumen*

      As you say, the people at your new job might just be less impatient. I’d give them a chance to prove it, and not say anything right off the bat. For one thing, it is really none of their business.

      For another: other people’s frustration is their problem to manage, not yours. I am not on the spectrum, and I have coworkers who get frustrated because I do things differently than they do, or struggle to understand a new concept, or just because they’re in a bad mood that day. That is their problem. We’re at work, and we all have to manage our frustrations and stress like adults. You would not have gotten the job if you hadn’t shown that you were capable of doing it just fine.

    4. neverjaunty*

      No. Do not tell people unless you want to find out the hard way all the stereotypes people have about being on the spectrum.

      You can instead tell them the specific issue if it comes up. “I’m sorry, I sometimes find it hard to follow X without clear instructions. Can you explain that one more time and I’ll take notes so I remember?” kind of thing.

      1. Aspie*

        Hmm. Ok thanks everyone. I think this new place is way better anyway and people are better at managing their own emotions. So I won’t say anything.

  52. Graphic Designer*

    Since my company has trimmed employees back to bare bones I find myself doing more copy writing for email blasts, websites, Facebook, sales materials etc. While I can come up with really clever copy every 10th time, I did not study writing back in college. The question is this: how can I sharpen up my writing skills without taking classes plus practice, practice, practice? Is there any books out there for people like me ( like Copy Writing for Dummies?). Muttering “dang it Jim, I’m a graphic designer not a…” doesn’t get me very far. Help!

    1. alsoadesigner*

      I just listened to a podcast (Creative Pep Talks by illustrator Andy J Miller – I recommend) that kind of touches on this. Start journaling! Get used to putting thoughts into real sentences! It doesn’t have to be work related copy, but just flexing your writing muscle will make writing copy a little bit easier. He suggested that we should become part time journalists to create stronger and more compelling visual narratives, which I found very interesting.

      My first degree is writing related, but since I haven’t written anything in years I’m now terrible at it (relatively speaking). Anyway, your situation sounds challenging. Good luck!

    2. Lumen*

      When it comes to creativity: fill the well. Watch movies and documentaries, read anything and everything that catches your eye, sketch some random thing, etc. I think it’s more about putting your brain in a receptive “I might write about this later” state.

      And going back to basics doesn’t hurt. Make sure you keep a copy of Elements of Style close by. Do writing exercises and prompts made for grade schoolers. Keep a journal and commit to a goal of 3 pages per day, longhand. No typing. There’s more about the ‘why’ of this in The Artist’s Way by Julia Cameron, but I have found it incredibly helpful. Even if all you do is write “I don’t know what to write about” over and over, eventually your brain will crave stimulation so badly that it will start making stuff up.

    3. Falling Diphthong*

      Read. Widely, including stuff you might not have thought would be interesting. (For myself, I like The New Yorker for precisely that reason.) But also stuff that’s being produced by people in the same or related industries doing this work.

      (As an example: TVTropes will have tons of examples of a storytelling trope being put to reasonable and terrible use. A theme they hit repeatedly is that tropes aren’t bad–they are an integral part of storytelling. So if there is some sort of guide to the tropes of your field, like a widely read blog or book, that’s a good place to look for blueprints. Of what to do, if you want to spit out something adequate on a deadline; of what to twist, if you want something that feels more original.)

    4. book designer to be*

      I also save examples of things that I like and pick apart their style – email blasts, facebook posts, etc. Usually looking at my little inspiration library will give me some ideas. The NYer and the other ideas are of course good too, but when you need to post something to facebook NOW, you might need a quicker solution!

      I find a lot of copy inspiration from Refinery 29 for some reason- go figure…

    5. Jessica*

      I know you said you don’t want to take classes, but what about just buying a textbook or two on writing, and reading through them and doing the exercises? That’d be a pretty minimal investment but still be good practice.

    6. Graphic Designer*

      Thanks for all the suggestions – I have a hold on the Elements of Style and the Artist’s Way at the library. Also noticed on Amazon that a reprint of Elements of Style offers the book and a set of writing exercises so I may order that. The podcast sounds interesting and will listen to that at work. Woot!

  53. Burningwoman*

    I know this subject is not new but I’m hoping for new ideas (also partly venting): have you ever come back from burnout?

    I am a previously high performer who got burnt out about 18 months ago, after my previous manager piled more and more on me until I broke. I moved from that job a year ago into a promotion with a lighter workload (same department, different boss). The workload IS lighter, but the rug got yanked out from under us immediately after I started and I haven’t been able to effectively set or achieve any meaningful goals primarily due to role ambiguity and conflict. I’ve tried to find small and large ways to contribute but often fail because I bite off something only to find out later that someone else is already chewing it. I feel unproductive, exhausted, and disconnected, and am at the point where starting anything just seems pointless. My manager is a nice person but is so overwhelmed herself that she hasn’t been able to help me figure this out. We’ve met twice in the last six months and she knows I’m struggling, but my fire is never the hottest one burning.

    There is dysfunction here—I know it’s not all me—but most people are managing to work through it, turning out projects and staying productive. So I feel weird and needy that I want my manager’s input to help me fix this! I am not used to underperforming and I hate hate hate this feeling. I have 12 years of seniority here, really good benefits, and am pretty intimidated by the idea of starting over in a field full of fresh interns and open-concept offices, especially when I feel like a broken employee. My motivation and resiliency are MAJORLY low and job-hunting just ugh guys. Ugh. What if I just drag the burnout with me wherever I go? I shouldn’t have let it get this bad.

    Is there any way to get my head to a place where I can start finding some solutions *without* support from my boss? So far most of the advice I’ve been getting is of the preventative or symptom management variety (deep breathing, positive thinking, eating healthy), but it has not been enough. Any ideas on how I can start baby steps on an action plan?

    1. J.B.*

      So, for me, the inverse of burnout is that when things are slow I have a much harder time focusing. For the short term, is there anything you can focus on and work on independently? Is there anything you could partner with one of those employees who are accomplishing something to work on something as a team? Or take classes?

      For me, finding something specific to focus on and get that accomplishment feeling was necessary. I am planning to leave, but am in a better place with that feeling in place.

      1. Burningwoman*

        I gave this some thought and I think you’re right that even temporarily feeling focused and accomplished would reduce my stress levels. I did the time off thing and, while I mostly enjoyed the time away, it actually stressed me out because I felt even more disconnected and behind when I returned. Maybe I’ll look for a few really short-term items I can tackle just to remind myself that I am in fact capable of finishing a thing. Thank you.

    2. Another person*

      You sound as exhausted as you say you are. Honestly the best thing I’ve found in positions like that is just take some time off to breathe before you start making a plan. After 12 years I imagine you can get some paid leave. I also found it helpful to talk through my burnout with a therapist before even starting on making a plan. Best wishes to you.

      1. Burningwoman*

        Thank you! I’ve considered talking to a therapist, if even just to avoid laying all the emotions on my manager and coworkers (and internet strangers). So hard to find the right fit though!

        1. Jessica*

          I went through a tumultuous period that sounds similar to what you have gone through, and it helped me a lot to make sure I was taking care of myself. Healthy food, vitamins, plenty of sleep, exercise, brain downtime where I am not doing something even remotely work-like. Making a point to do one thing at a time and not multitask. Baking. Cleaning. Taking walks in the woods. Sitting and listening to music. But only doing that one thing, and then moving on to the next–not trying to juggle multiple things at once, even if it would be more practical. The purpose was to recondition me to not split my focus in so many directions.

          It couldn’t hurt to get a physical, either. I was experiencing some health issues and finally saw a doctor about it, and unsurprisingly my several months of high stress, and coincident eating garbage and not exercising, made me anemic and put my thyroid out of whack.

          The upshot is, don’t underestimate the physical effects of mental stress, and as a corollary, the benefits of physical self-care on mental health.

          1. Burningwoman*

            Thank you! Yes, I have seen my doctor, and the stress is certainly causing/exacerbating some physical issues. Eating well and making time for exercise are big challenges for me.

            The idea of paring down is pretty appealing, and I do have a tendency to multitask a lot in my off-hours (a misguided way to feel work-life balance?).

    3. Lindsey*

      Wow, I definitely feel you here. Same deal – high-performer, overwhelmed boss, in a side department that the CEO directly told me about two months ago would always be lowest on the totem pole. A couple things that have helped:

      (1) Taking some time off. Seriously. I was just in a bad headspace and that really helped. I’m also repeating a coworker in my head “We’re not creating world peace here, guys.” It was said in a nice way, but just a reminder that everything isn’t the end of the world.

      (1a) To be perfectly honest, I’m pulling back at work a bit and focusing on outside projects. Getting in and leaving exactly 9-5 every day definitely isn’t my modus operandi, but scheduling stuff I have to leave for after has helped my focus shift a bit.

      (2) I’ve started fun side projects with other departments. It started by asking a lot of other people what they’re working on in the guise of getting more training (which might not work as a higher/senior level), but it ended up with finding a couple of cool coworkers that I didn’t even know existed (my company is 90% remote workers) and we set up some informal “working groups” that meet once a month or so to share experiences and ideas, like a structured watercooler (i.e. I plan in-person events, so I found some people who were working on virtual events). That gives me something to look forward to and helps me not accidentally take on other people’s workloads. (We found out at the first meeting by suggesting everyone invite someone else that SIX different departments were working on the same project.)

      1. Burningwoman*

        High-five, burnout buddy. I work remotely and it is part of the challenge–I love that you started up some informal meetings like this. We’re in a bit of a weird space right now in that people are nervous about losing their jobs and are much less inclined to cooperate and share information than they used to be, and that’s definitely part of what’s making things difficult for me.

        I think concentrating on goals outside of work again would also be good for me. Just have to find a way to be less dead at the end of the workday/week! Maybe it’s time for me to try taking that time off again after all.

        Thanks!

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I would have to have a serious sit down with the boss. Make your fire the hottest one burning.
      “Boss, I cannot work like this. My efforts have no meaning. Other people are working on the same thing I am and my work gets chucked. I am seriously floundering. ”

      Maybe you can work beside your boss and clean up what she misses. I think it’s fair to point out to her that you are floundering and she is overloaded, why don’t the two of you team up? You can take her excess or do her follow ups once she gets the ball rolling.

      In the right setting, I have said, “I am afraid that the higher ups will want to fire me if they find out that I am contributing nothing. We have to fix this.”

      1. Burningwoman*

        Thank you for your wording! I am going to give this another go and I think asking if she has a task she can offload to me could be helpful. I will probably avoid going so far as to say I’m nervous about being fired in this setting (she’d be the one firing me–and there’s a good chance people here are going to be laid off) but I am generally a fan of this direct approach.

  54. Exhausted Anon for this*

    I posted on the 4th of July open thread about being burnt out at work try to keep up with coworkers working hours and hours off the clock to keep billable hours down and I already have an update!
    I sat down with my manager and we had an honest conversation. They were completely understanding and agreed that the environment has changed and it was no longer a good fit for me – but due to no fault of my own and not for a lack of skills or effort. So I’m now officially wrapping up my projects and on my two weeks notice! Being unemployed won’t be ideal, but they’re not going to fight unemployment and they’ve offered me references and to put me in contact with anyone in their network, so I’m leaving on excellent terms and starting off on a good foot.
    I’m a little sad, but mostly incredibly relieved. I honestly should have realized things weren’t going well long before I got to the point of dry-heaving from stress every morning.
    Wish me luck!

    1. Another person*

      Good news about them not fighting the unemployment and offering good references. I hope you get some much needed rest and wish you the best of luck with future endeavors.

  55. A-nonny-nonny*

    Anybody work in corporate training? I’m a teacher, I love teaching, but the finances may not work long-term for me
    & possibly interested in getting into a job that lets me keep teaching, but also pays better.

    1. A-nonny-nonny*

      Should clarify: I’m interested in what you do, how you got your foot in the door, whether I need further training beyond what I have (an MA in the humanities from a state university, plus seven years’ experience teaching first-year college courses).

    2. anna green*

      I don’t have much advice, but I am also looking to get into corporate training! I am currently an environmental consultant/trainer, so its a bit of a career change for me too. I recently went for a graduate certificate in instructional design (although with an MA already, that prob won’t help you) and I joined my local Association for Talent Development (ATD) group to network. Other than that, I am still working on it. Good luck!!

    3. Kowalski! Options!*

      I work in corporate training, having made the move over after 16 years in language training and curriculum planning. I know that there are organizations and programs that people can join/take, but to be honest, if you’ve already got experience teaching, reading stuff by people like Julie Dirksen, Michael Allen and Jane Bozarth will help round out your previous knowledge nicely. Julie, in particular, has a great Facebook community named after her book, “Design for How People Learn”, and Jane hosts (or helps facilitate, not sure which) a #lrnchat (learning chat) Twitter discussion Thursday nights around 9PM EST. Both are good resources for getting a bead on what’s involved.

    4. whichsister*

      I am in training. I actually fell into it. My master’s is in Advertising and Public Relations but my first job out of school was actually a training position and it turns out they have a lot in common and I love it! I have done it in manufacturing, but am currently in the food service industry. I was also in academia for a while where I developed and taught a leadership soft skills course.

      I would definitely join your local ATD and would look at training coordinator positions as entry level. Play up your instructional design skills, facilitation and project management skills. I would also play up any diverse audiences you had , as well as the whole ADDIE process. Its all about ROI!

      1. periwinkle*

        I’ll note that you should be familiar with the principles of instructional design but you do not necessarily need to know how to do it. In larger orgs, instructor and instructional designer are separate roles. These are two different skill sets so it makes sense. Our IDs tend to be very analytical and precise to ensure that the course content is accurate and the course structure follows sound adult learning principles. Our instructors tend to be real people-people who are also skilled in managing the classroom (not an easy task as you know!).

        In our org, most of the instructors moved into that role from their functional roles; they were subject matter experts, not professional trainers/facilitators, and use their deep knowledge to make the training materials relevant using real examples/realistic hypothetical scenarios. Not sure how common this is, but considering the kind of knowledge taught in most of our courses, a SME has to be the instructor.

        I’m thinking you should be looking at companies which are focused on offering courses/programs to other organizations. For example, a big concern in HR is the impact of unconscious bias. Our HR org contracted with a company that develops & delivers corporate programs; that vendor delivered a (terrific) 1-day course on the subject using their materials and one of their professional trainers.

        The aforementioned ATD is a good place to start – look at what vendors are advertising their services and find out if they’re hiring!

        I’m a former instructional designer who was a terrible trainer and admires the ones who make it look so easy and fun…

    5. krysb*

      I’m actually moving into corporate training within my company. We’re hoping to create a new role for me this fall that will be to manage the training and development of all employees. I’m coming into it from an HR/Ops management direction, using my supervisory experience and my soon-to-be finished college degree.

      (My only hope is that I can get my company to agree with my preferred pay…)

    6. ronda*

      I was a project manager in an accounting dept and took on responsibility for the systems training. I hired 2 trainers to do the classes and update / write materials.

      #1 was a great instructor but did not have any accounting background or accounting systems background. personality wise, people loved her.
      #2 had an accounting background, had worked on a systems implementation, and was a good instructor. She didnt have the personality of #1.

      If I had to choose between them I would choose #2
      #1 struggled with feeling comfortable with the materials since she didnt have the background. And the systems training was very specifically accounting related, so it was a problem.

      So…. I would think about what kind of training programs you could work on and see if there are opportunities for that.

  56. Cece*

    I’m coming to the end of a fixed-term contract at the end of this month. Three management layers have all told me that they’re “trying to sort something out”, but it’s the fourth layer (my boss’s boss’s boss’s boss) who’s blocking a quick renewal. It’s frustrating knowing that there is work that will need doing over the next few months/year – and it’s not possible to double-up other people’s duties, believe me – but I might be made redundant in a few weeks because the higher-ups can’t agree to keep me around. My boss is sympathetic/annoyed on my behalf, and my boss’s new boss was sympathetic when I introduced myself and advocated for myself, but I’ve still had to have an official “have you noticed your contract is about to end” meeting.

    (Job searching in a competitive industry hasn’t been fruitful. There was a fairly entry-level fixed-term job I went for, but a friend with almost a decade more experience was hired. :S)

    Just, cross your fingers for me?

  57. Roza*

    This is mostly a vent, but I’m also curious as to whether others find this as odd as I did.

    I worked a year and a half at toxic job, then found a position at an amazing new company where I’ve been for about six months. The worst thing about toxic job were the managers and directors who had been there forever, and were condescending to at best and borderline abusive at worst to newer staff (not just in my head–turnover has been massive and some junior staff have had to go on mental health leave). However, there were a couple of “lifers” with whom I had a decent working relationship while there. I was always a little confused about how seemingly reasonable people were oblivious or indifferent to the toxicity, but figured they had there own reasons for staying.

    One of them, let’s call her Alice, contacted me out of the blue about a manager opening at new awesome job. Because she seemed like one of the sane ones, I happily referred her. Throughout the interview process she emailed me repeatedly about how great the company seemed, she’d take an offer if they made one, whatever happened we should grab drinks some time as a thanks for the referral, etc. The company made her an offer and she immediately went to radio silence–no acknowledgement of the offer until a couple days later, when she came back with a counter offer. She ultimately declined without giving a reason, ignored further emails from awesome company, and didn’t even bother emailing me to tell me she’d declined.

    I still have friends at toxic job (which I guess Alice doesn’t know), so I know that the second she got the offer she used it as a bargaining chip for a shiny new title and I assume more money at toxic job. That’s fine, people use outside offers to negotiate, but am I right in feeling annoyed at her rudeness as soon as she got what she wanted? And also at the fact that I’m pretty sure she was negotiating in bad faith and had no intention of taking offer from awesome company (hard to prove, but some of the details that could de-anonymize this post really, really make it seem that she just wanted an offer, any offer, in hand as a bargaining chip), and so, despite being a former mentor, had no compunction about using me and discarding me professionally?

    Again, I’m not upset per session at her turning down the offer–it fact, if she’d just sent me and/or awesome company a quick email after declining along the lines of “Thanks for the offer, but my current company made me a counter offer I couldn’t refuse/this just isn’t the right time for me to move on/literally any polite reason for decking” I’d have no hard feeling at all. But the way she left it, totally ghosting both me and the hiring team as soon as she had what she needed, I’m feeling very angry and this bridge is VERY burned. Although the joke is on her, because now she can continue to work at toxic company, which I guess she likes because she’s also a jerk. Am I overreacting, or is this actually weird behavior?

    1. Roza*

      One more bit…I guess I’m taking it kind.if personally because Alice was one of the few people I genuinely liked working with at toxic job, and I thought of her as something of a mentor. Really stings to feel like she lied to me and manipulated me to help her get an offer she had no intention of taking.

    2. anna green*

      Yeah, you are right to be angry. That sucks. She had no reason to ghost everyone like that. Definitely bridges burned!

    3. J.B.*

      That’s rude, but if she’s a more senior person a bullet probably dodged. Maybe talk to your boss about how rudely she treated you, and that you feel burned by making the referral. More from a position of “should I have done anything differently” but also so s/he knows that you weren’t expecting that treatment either.

    4. Frustrated Optimist*

      Yup. She played you, and you have every right to feel manipulated and used.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Stockholm Syndrome type of thing?

      Maybe she assumes all companies have their pit falls. If given two equal companies she would rather stay where she knows where the pits are?

      It’s not just in work/jobs. You can show people an easier path and they will say, “No. I’m good here. Thanks.” I think it is sheer disbelief that things can be different.

    6. LKW*

      Yup, consider it a bridge burned (by her). For whatever reason she preferred staying at toxic job than moving on. If she contacts you in the future you can ignore or just vaguely non-respond. She’s a jerk.

    7. Chaordic One*

      I can sure relate to your feeling burned, and yes, an email along the lines of “Thanks for the offer, but blah, blah, blah… ” could have done so much and saved the relationship. It’s so sad that your one-time mentor turned out to be such a jerk.

  58. anon today*

    I’m afraid that I’m not smart enough, or at least not well informed enough, to apply to this job.

    There’s an opening for a position that sounds like an amazing fit for me, based on the duties of the job. The organization is a nonprofit media outlet that is very political leaning. I have nonprofit experience, and the job aligns perfectly with experience and skills. While I agree with their values and political stance, I’m no news junkie. I’m sending my resume in, but I’m a bit terrified of what will happen if I get an interview. The job is on the admin side, not producing content or anything like that, but I’m afraid they’ll still think I’m a complete idiot for not knowing more about current events. I mean I keep up, but not as much as I would like. One of the things that draws me to the position is that it would keep me more up to date on issues that I care about and I’d like to know more about. But I find myself feeling like a fraud writing on my cover letter that I’m passionate about their mission. Does anyone have experience apply to or working for a news outlet, or very political organization, when they feel out of their depth?

    1. Anne*

      There’s nothing wrong here at all, you just need to reframe it in your head!

      1. You ARE passionate about the mission, in the sense that you care about it.
      2. You do currently keep up with current events.
      3. This job would be a great opportunity for you to keep up to date on issues that you care about.

      I do development for an NGO that works in a pretty specific subject area, one that I knew absolutely nothing about when I applied. I just spent some time before the interview reading about recent developments in the field, and also specific projects that the org was working on. And it worked! I was able to say, here’s why I agree with values X Y and Z that your organization holds and why I think your work is important, without having to act like I was some sort of expert. I’m doing the same thing now in my current job search, and I’ve gotten calls back from two places whose missions have NOTHING to do with my work history.

    2. Lumen*

      ALWAYS apply for the jobs you are interested in. Literally the worst thing that could happen is that they don’t call you. Can you survive that? Then you should apply for the job!

      It sounds like you really want to work there. Be passionate in your cover letter. Don’t drag yourself down or apologize in advance for ‘not knowing enough’. If they ask you in an interview how many hours of news you consume a week, be honest. (I doubt they will ask this, by the way.) You can also say, just as you did in your post: “I keep up, but not as much as I would like. One of the things that draws me to the position is that I could get more involved, directly, with issues I care about.” Boom.

      You are NOT a fraud. You care about what they do and you want to be a part of it. That matters more than knowing every detail of the G20 summit.

      1. Queen of the File*

        Agreed! Someone gave me the advice once not to screen yourself out of jobs–that’s someone else’s job :)

    3. anon today*

      Thank you, both, for that. You’re right. I think I’m just psyching myself out because this job sounds perfect, and I don’t want to get my hopes up. I work at a nonprofit now and knew NOTHING about the cause when I applied….just wasn’t so worried because I wasn’t as excited about the job.

  59. Grey*

    Sharing Hotel Rooms

    My job requires travel in the summer months and the hotel costs are taking a hit on my finances. My company will pay for a room but only if I share it with another colleague. The problem is that I’m disabled, so this has its disadvantages: I talk and sometimes yell in my sleep because of the pain. I’d rather my colleagues not know this about me and I don’t like wondering the next morning if they do (and who they might tell). Sometimes I need to sleep on the floor too. It’s a great way to get stepped on or tripped over if I move there in the middle of the night. Plus, I don’t want to become known as the guy nobody will room with because they’re unable to get any sleep. It’s embarrassing.

    I can’t really go the Reasonable Accommodation route because it’s not me who needs the accommodation. It’s the poor sap who has to deal with me in the middle of the night. And my actual disability is still undiagnosed beyond “back pain’ so it’s going to look like I’m just trying to score a private room.

    Any suggestions?

    1. Christy*

      Oh, you can totally go the Reasonable Accommodation route. Please, go the Reasonable Accommodation route. This is a medical issue stemming from a disability and should be very straightforward for your office to handle.

    3. RVA Cat*

      Maybe get with your healthcare provider and see if you can get an accommodation for it as a Sleep Disorder? Many people use a CPAP for sleep apnea which IMHO would justify having a private room.

    4. AnonAcademic*

      While I appreciate your consideration of your coworkers, it sounds pretty unambiguous to me that you need the accommodation for your own comfort and health. Back pain sounds like a diagnosis to me. I think you are overthinking the optics of this personally. I would not envy a coworker whose medical issue meant they got their own room so much as I’d be grateful to not be woken up by the sleep talking or what have you (as a light sleeper).

  60. Should I offer to travel, or something?*

    Was waiting for the thread this week!
    I work on a team of 7 in a larger institution. We have a great boss, it’s a great place to work, non-toxic, we get along, etc etc.
    The other 6 people on my team have to make day trips for their jobs, a couple or three a month. These are paid for by work, of course. The reasons they have for traveling make sense.
    I do not travel for my job. There is just no reason for me to, as I don’t work with any of those off-site partners. I wonder how this is perceived by the others on my team. No one has said anything to me about it, but I wonder if they think it’s unfair. It is fair, in fact, since I have no reason to travel.
    What I’m wondering is, should I ask my boss if there is something I can do to make up for this disparity? I have no ideas what hat might be. I volunteer for all the projects I can, and my evaluation was good and I was complimented on being a team player. If I bring this up, do I look like I just don’t get it and am overthinking? Or would it be good to notice this disparity and comment, to see if there is anything I can do?
    Hope this makes sense. Thanks!

    1. Squeeble*

      I wouldn’t say anything–from the way you describe it, I doubt anyone notices or has an opinion about your not traveling. Sounds like you’re doing well and your boss and team are happy.

      If it’s really bothering you, maybe you could offer to take over a coworker’s trip if they are unexpectedly sick or out of the office (I have no idea if that would work in your situation, though).

    2. anna green*

      It doesn’t seem like you need to say anything. As long as your job descriptions are different and there isn’t a need for you to travel, I would guess they understand that. I travel for my job and some others don’t because it’s not what they do. As much as I hate the travel, I certainly don’t blame them for it, I have to do it, its my job.

    3. KR*

      If you have any chance of getting then into the event can you suggest they just put giant sharpie X’s on their hands? That’s what clubs, concerts, and bars do that allow people under 21 and it makes it so that even if they get their hands on a drink people can clearly see when they hold it that they are under 21. Really, to exclude all interns because they aren’t 21 seems really. . Babyish?

      1. KR*

        Oops, that was supposed to be a reply to intern supervisor. I don’t know how that happened.

    4. Ramona Flowers*

      We have people who need to travel and people who don’t. It’s really not a problem if you don’t travel when you don’t need to!

  61. intern supervisor*

    I’m supervising two interns that are part of a program at corporate (includes about 15 interns total). Our company has a fun event next week and the interns are not allowed to participate (beach day, it includes alcohol and not all of the interns are over 21). They already do some pretty boring work in our dept so it feels mean for them to be excluded from the fun stuff. What can I do or buy them as a small treat to make up for the fact that most of the dept is taking off that day to have fun? My scope is limited, I can’t change pay rates or give time off, but these are nice guys and I don’t want them to feel totally slighted.

    3. SL #2*

      When I was a fellow and one of us was leaving for the Peace Corps, we decided that we wanted to have a farewell happy hour for her, but just the 5 of us and we figured we’d all just split the bill. Our manager got wind of it and handed us some petty cash that afternoon to cover it on behalf of the company. It was enough to cover a couple drinks each and quite a few appetizers. Since your interns can’t drink, do you have the ability to do something similar for them? Order a nice lunch for them to be delivered at noon or even leave behind some petty cash so they can go out for lunch? You’d be surprised at how appreciated a free meal can be.

    4. The Foreign Octopus*

      I’m really glad you caught that they might feel excluded!

      Something like this happened to me at a job that I worked at whilst at university. I was part-time and the only part-time employee in a section with full-time workers. Whenever there was a special event or an in-office activity, I was always excluded. Although I hate work activities and forced fun, it still rankled to be completely overlooked. One particularly galling memory is when the manager bought in cream cakes for everyone and omitted me. She laughed it off and said that she’d forgotten I would be there but I still felt excluded.

      So do something a little different that afternoon. Pizza is a great idea, maybe some cake as well. Then they feel a bit more relaxed and like they’re part of the team.

  62. Ihmmy*

    In my office, we often get emails addressed to “ladies”, referred to as the office “gals” or “girls”, I get emails from people addressing me as “Ms./Mrs./Miss” with some regularity as well. I’m finding these are all super grating and while I’m not non-binary, a lot of the gendered titles don’t sit well with me. Is there a reasonably polite way to ask people to stop using them? I may not have as much success with people outside of our office (likelier to use ms/mrs/miss) but it makes me incredibly uncomfortable each time I read “Hey Ladies, here’s that email about…” and increasingly so.

    1. Lumen*

      I’d love to see an answer (especially from Alison) to this. I am particularly bothered by things like “girls” and “gals” – very casual, often diminutive addresses for women and femme-presenting folks. How do I stop my coworkers from calling me “Miss Lumen” or “girlie”, especially if other women on my team aren’t bothered (or are the ones doing it)?

      1. Natalie*

        “Girlie”???? Blech.

        The fact that no one else objects doesn’t matter one bit. Exactly what tone you strike is up to you, but there’s really nothing wrong with some version of “Oh, I actually don’t like that, stop calling me ‘girlie'”.

        The trick is not to back down if they apologize excessively, challenge you, or keep doing it. I have to do this with people calling me “Nat” all the time. Mostly it’s the excessive apologizing which gets one “it’s okay, you didn’t know and now you do” from me and then gets ignored.

    2. The Queen of Cans & Jars*

      Ugh, so annoying! We have a department of 4 women who are regularly referred to as “the copy girls.” Drives me crazy. I have been using “crew” and hoping it will catch on.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      You could role model alternatives:

      “To all:”
      “Hey, folks,”
      “Everyone:”

      1. Ihmmy*

        I do! I always address emails as “Good Afternoon everyone/all/FN, FN & FN” when it’s to more than two people. The unit I work for in academia is mostly women. Sigh.

    4. curmudgeon*

      as much as I dislike group emails addressed to “Ladies” , not sure what to substitute..
      I’m a Jersey girl, a dancer, in a world where unless you are the lead dancer, you are referred to as the “girls” & “boys” … just used to those I guess

    5. Alice*

      I know that lots of people don’t like being called ladies, and certainly if one of my colleagues asked me not to use “lady” for her, I would take note. But I routinely email a pair of women colleagues and start off “Ladies” – just as I routinely email a pair of men colleagues with the greeting “gentlemen.” “Hi everyone” for two people grates on me, and some of the other alternatives are too informal for our culture.
      I think there’s a big difference between dismissive gendered language (girlie, Miss when men are greeted by first name, Miss/Mrs after someone has asked to be called Ms, Ms after someone has asked to be called Dr, actress after someone’s asked to be called actor, lady in the singular as a form of address) and gendered language in general.

    6. FinePrint*

      My convention is to use ‘Dear Colleagues’ for everyone. ‘Ladies’ grates on me too, as does ‘Hi Everyone’ or ‘Hi All’, especially when it addresses people up the hierarchy chain. My only exceptions are a few office friends, and I’ll use ‘Hey’, ‘Hei’ or ‘Dear Fiends’. I would stop immediately if anyone of my office friends didn’t like it (and vice versa).

  63. Lynne879*

    I had a job interview for an event facility few days ago & I think I did pretty well. There were maybe one or two questions I could have answered better, but I didn’t do anything too embarrassing. I’ll hear back to see if I have a second interview on Monday or Tuesday.

    I liked the people I interviewed with (they would be my coworkers/supervisor) and the facility itself was pretty, but I’m going back and forth over whether not this job might be for me.

    Positives: I’ll be paid better than what I’m making now (roughly $400 more a month); the commute will be shorter (30 min at most compared to 1 hr); the grounds are gorgeous (seriously, it’s unlike anything I’ve ever seen); my potential coworkers seem like good people; I no longer have the stress of working with my micro managing boss at my weekend job

    Negatives: I’ll be working 35-40 hours with no benefits (other than MAYBE health insurance?). I find this disappointing considering the facility is owned by the county government & that there will be days where I would work 13.5 hour shifts when working events; I will be working with 3 other people, so hours aren’t flexible which means I won’t be able to volunteer as much as I have been doing; because the hours aren’t flexible, it seems like it’ll be difficult to take time off; but most importantly, I’ll be working with customers more than I would at any other job I’ve ever had. If I have to work with a bridezilla, then I have to work with her for at least 4 months until the big wedding day. I don’t know if I can handle any of that stress; even though I will be making more money a money, it’s still not enough money to live on my own in my county without sharing with other people & I’m too old to still be living with my parents :/

    Typing all of this done, there are definitely more negatives than positives, but I also think it’s time to move on to finally work one full-time job instead of working 2 part-time jobs. Honestly, this is the first job I’ve seen within the past few months that’s peaked my interest enough to apply.

    1. Beez*

      To me, it sounds like there are more positives, though of course ymmv.

      I would definitely ask at a second interview how time off, both planned vacation and sick time, work in this position. And definitely figure out the health insurance situation.

      There is also the potential for a negative client, but if it’s for an event at least it (mostly) won’t be a daily issue, and I’m sure your co-workers will have advice on handling the negative people. But the commute, stable full time job, and gorgeous location would sell it for me.

      1. Jessica Davison*

        I never worked for a venue, but I was an event planner for about 8 years and honestly taking time off can be a little tricky – especially if your employer isn’t particularly flexible. I knew plenty of coworkers and colleagues in the industry who planned their weddings and even babies a little bit around their event calendar. You’re going to sacrifice some of your personal life, at least at the beginning. But as you move up in the world, you’ll have more control and flexibility. I promise I’m not trying to bum you out! I just wish I had a head’s up on what to look for when I was job searching. I agree with Beez that the second interview is the time to ask them about work-life balance and the flexibility for taking time off. I also second Beez that having good co-workers will absolutely help with dealing with difficult clients.

  64. ReluctantTraveler*

    Hi all! I’m about six months pregnant, and I work at a primarily fundraising job that usually has minimal travel (maybe one or two trips a year that require flying or driving over 3 hours or so), and then a handful of day trips a month.

    However, in the last month, I’ve been told that the travel requirement was increasing (after being told for months it was being cut in half), and I needed to have 20 donor visits before I go on maternity leave in early October. For context, all last year I only had 54 visits, which was on track for my metrics (which have been purposefully lower than other fundraisers I work with because of the nature of my job and all my other job responsibilities).

    I think there may be some illegal stuff going on (beyond this, I’m also just being treated differently in a few ways since I got pregnant), but that isn’t even my concern today. I don’t think I’ll be returning to this job after maternity leave because of all the changes they’ve made to the position (it’s been rewritten several times and they’re threatening to rewrite it again), but I can’t know that for sure since it depends on me finding something else, and I certainly can’t quit before maternity leave at this point — I couldn’t afford it, I have great insurance here, etc.

    But I also physically just can’t travel as much as they want me too. I’m planning a week-long trip to Georgia at the end of the month, and I’m dreading the heat. This pregnancy has already been incredibly rough on me physically, and beyond day trips, travel just feels exhausting right now.

    Is there anything I can say or conversation I can have that would mean less travel? Or am I stuck?

    1. Amtelope*

      Can you get your doctor to recommend restricting your travel to day trips because you’re late in your pregnancy? I know doctors’ notes aren’t legally binding, but a lot of companies will honor them anyway, and it might be helpful as a way to open a conversation with your employer in which you say “I can’t physically do this much travel in my third trimester, let’s talk about alternatives.”

      1. ReluctantTraveler*

        Yeah, I have an appointment with my doctor today and I’m going to ask her for her input.

        Even if my job changed to just more in state travel, it’s still just stressful the more pregnant I get. My last pregnancy ended with me being high risk and working from home for a month, but there is no way that would fly now. I’m not sure it’s possible to do everything they want me to do, at this point.

    2. LCL*

      You’re six months along and they want you to travel more? This is the time to pull the pregnancy card. ‘My pregnancy is making me ill and exhausted and sick, my and the baby’s health are in jeaopardy already, I can’t travel more.’ Get your doctor to put something on paper for you, if possible. What glassbowls.

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      Talk to your doctor and get a note from him or her saying you cannot travel more than X hours per week, no flights after X month, etc. Take it to your boss, and say “My doctors’ orders… per these requirements, what can we do about the travel you are planning for me?”

      Can someone else travel on these trips for you? Is that an option?

      1. RVA Cat*

        There’s also the fact that airlines may not let you fly in your third trimester due to liability concerns.

        1. Natalie*

          I don’t think that’s a common rule anymore. Some airlines might limit people in the last weeks, but not the whole third trimester.

    4. Graciosa*

      Have you explored ADA accommodations? It sounds it might be a possibility if you need changes to your work (travel restrictions) in order to manage your current medical condition.

      Not my area of expertise, but I think it’s worth having a candid conversation with your doctor (who is probably better versed in this and knows what letter to write for you). Doing something formal may also provide a bit of notice to your employer that mishandling this presents a legal risk.

      Best wishes

        1. Graciosa*

          I was inferring from the comment that this pregnancy had been incredibly rough that perhaps there might be other factors at play. There may not be, but I thought it worth mentioning to the doctor as some “impairments” resulting from pregnancy do require accommodation under the ADA.

          There is also a PDA, but I know even less about that one than I do the ADA –

    5. J.B.*

      Do you think they want to get rid of you? (Changing your metrics now would certainly suggest that and the doctor’s note wouldn’t apply after you came back.) If they do they will probably find a way to do it. Consider finding the name of a lawyer. If it comes to that, try negotiating severance including health insurance/not having to pay insurance costs for while out of FMLA.

      1. ReluctantTraveler*

        I do think they’re managing me out, yeah.

        And honestly, if I had any other option, I would quit. I just can’t do it without anything else lined up. I’ve applied to a few things, including something really promising (I know a lot of people there who think my chances are good), but clearly there are no guarantees, not to mention who knows their timeline; and again — six months pregnant.

        They would have to put me on a performance improvement plan and jump through a lot of hoops to fire me, and I don’t think they will. They just want to make me miserable enough to quit.

        1. neverjaunty*

          Talk to a lawyer ASAP. You should not have to give up your job and unemployment because these people are jerks.

    6. CityMouse*

      I am so sorry, my mom had preeclampsia with me and kept working and… she ended up very sick as a result (everyone is okay now). I thought it was common knowledge women in their third trimester are not supposed to fly; an airline could actually deny to fly you. They are so unreasonable if isn’t funny. If you can I would talk to HR. Pregnancy discrimination is so common but you might be protected by some of the laws (I can’t say for sure).

  65. JustaTech*

    Last week we (finally!) interviewed a candidate for a position that’s been open for months. The candidate was really good, but just ended a contract at another company so is understandably anxious to get a new position.
    The thing is we haven’t been able to come up with anyone else to interview. It’s a somewhat niche position and our company has a rocky reputation, so there aren’t a lot of candidates in the first place, and at least some of them are put off by “oh, you guys” thing. (Our recruiters have been *terrible*, but they’re gone now.)

    So my boss wants to hire the candidate without in-person interviewing anyone else. Now, I like this candidate and think they will do well, fit the team well and so forth. It’s just the last time we hired someone when they were the only person interviewed they haven’t fit in well at all. (They were hand-picked by their manager.)

    I don’t have a lot of control in this situation, but do I push for us to interview unsuitable people, or do I say yes, let’s grab the only suitable person and hope that it works out and that there really wasn’t anyone else out there.

    1. Graciosa*

      I’m in favor of getting both the best available candidate and also ensuring that the candidate is a good one (meaning not hiring a bad candidate even if they are the best so far), but if the position has been open for months and the candidate is solid, you have met that criteria.

      I don’t see any point in pushing for another in person interview just to have had one – it’s a waste of time, and it’s solving the wrong problem retroactively (the previous issue sounds like a manager making a bad pick rather than a process problem).

      I wouldn’t push for more interviews.

    2. T3k*

      My question would be, are you just considering “unsuitable” people just to say you interviewed others so you can come back and hire the first person, or are you genuinely wanting to go into the other interviews with the mindset that they could be better? If the first, you might as well say yes to hiring the first person because otherwise you’ll just be wasting your time as well as anyone you interview and could leave bad feelings in its wake (the one being interviewed may realize you’re just interviewing them to fill a mandatory quota or something).

      1. Frustrated Optimist*

        Anyone who’s read my comments on this site previously knows I’ve been that “filler” candidate. Please, please don’t do this to people!

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I would not push for more interviews just because it feels like you should.
      It really sucks to interview people and privately know you have probably already made a decision.

      Rural area employers are prone to getting one or two applicants. It’s pretty clear cut that no one else will be applying so they make their decision accordingly. If the candidate seems to fit, then go with it. It can go the other way also. I have seen some employers just get rid of the position because of problems like this.

    4. Ramona Flowers*

      Why would interviewing unsuitable people help ensure this candidate is a fit, or do anything except waste the time of everyone involved?

      1. JustaTech*

        You’re right. (Everyone who said the same thing also). I think it’s a bit of “once bitten twice shy”.
        And while the position has been empty for months the job was only posted about a month ago (I think the first recruiter put the ad in the back of the Retired Luddite times).

        Maybe I’m just sad we didn’t get anyone else because sometimes our company feels like the butt of the industry (locally).

  66. Not Today Satan*

    I’m a new supervisor and it’s the worst. I manage people in a client services role who need to be at work at a certain time, leave at a certain time, etc. I hate having to scold people about crap like that but it’s the nature of the role. The worst part is, someone on my team transferred from a more flexible, “as long as you get your projects done everything’s fine” type of job, and she still has that mentality and gives me a hard time. I haaaaaaate it.

    1. Emi.*

      Ugh, I’m sorry. Have you told her straight-out that she needs to take a new approach in her new job, with your expectations laid out really clearly?

    2. Lumen*

      When you say she gives you a hard time, do you mean that she snarks/talks back or just that she is particularly bad about following the requirements of her current position?

      If it’s the former, that’s inappropriate and out of line. If it’s the latter, then Emi is correct: it’s important to sit down with her and make sure she is very clear on the expectations of her current role. She’s not at her last job. She’s at THIS job. And she needs to understand that (and also see that you take this seriously.)

    3. Snark (formerly Liet)*

      “Jane, I realize your last role had a lot more schedule flexibility, and that’s a nice perk that’s easy to get used to. In this role, however, coverage is important, and I expect you to be punctual and arrive and leave as scheduled. Can you do that, moving forward? I need you to undstand that if this continues, we’ll need to re-evaluate whether you can continue in this position or not, and I’d really like to avoid that. ”

      And if she gives you pushback, “Jane, I’m not sure how I can be more blunt: you need to be here on time, every time, because in this role tardiness is a performance issue.”

    4. The Queen of Cans & Jars*

      I sympathize! I work for a company that handles food, so we have a whole raft of rules that seem pretty ridiculous to most people (so much so that the requirement to be here exactly on time never gets any pushback). When supervisors have said they feel ridiculous writing people up for not following those rules, I tell them to reframe it as, the employee is actively disobeying a direct order from their supervisor. Even though they may feel ridiculous about the write up, the employee is the one who refuses to do something as simple as leaving their phone in their locker.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      The next step for me would be to stop taking the push back from her.
      “Jane, this job requires everyone to follow a time schedule because of the nature of our work. Everyone, including me follows the time schedule. It’s part of the job. Not a one of us is fond of a strict schedule but it’s not going to change. I need you to be able to do this without complaining about it. Can you do that?”

      I tend to grow impatient with complaints about things that will never change. And I can get even more tired of the complaints when I am following the same rules myself. It sounds like Jane has forgotten her audience. She is asking to do something that even you can’t do. You might point that out to her.

  67. NJ Anon*

    This may seem like a dumb question but here it goes: I have an interview tomorrow for a high level position tomorrow. I was asked to bring 6 copies of my cover letter and resume. Should I staple them together? (my resume is 2 pages), paper clip? None of the above? I know I’m overthinking it but just wanted to get some opinions.
    Thanks!

    2. Squeeble*

      Probably no one will care, but I’d staple them so you lower the chance of papers coming undone from the paper clip.

    3. Morning Glory*

      I would collate them so that your cover letter is next to to your resume (and maybe paperclip), to make it easier to hand out to the 6 people you will be giving them to – but don’t staple them.

      That way it’s easier for them to look at them side by side if needed.

  68. Tuckerman*

    Time sheets.
    In my role, I wear the office manager hat. I’m responsible for verifying staff enter their time off in our organization’s time tracking system. We’re all exempt and people just have to enter exceptions (4 hrs vacation Thursday).
    Each week, 10-30% of staff forget, despite receiving a system generated reminder. Our manager has reiterated that staff must fill out time sheets. Yet people forget.
    A little background. We have an extremely generous PTO package and people can use their vacation/sick time pretty much whenever they want. Our work/life balance is as close to ideal as you’re going to get. So this is not a case where people are neglecting to enter time off because they think they are being nickled and dimed. They just don’t see it as a priority.
    Any suggestions? The only thing left I can think of is to suggest to our manager that time keeping affect the “communication” section of their annual review, but to set a low bar (i.e. if you miss 10 occurrences, you’ll receive a “needs improvement” rating). But I am hoping I can avoid that!

    1. NJ Anon*

      I feel your pain! There is a reminder on our shared calendar and I email a reminder as well. I’m still chasing people around. My new tact is that I tell them if they don’t get their stuff in on time for me to process payroll, they take the chance that they may have a delayed direct deposit. That seems to be working. Unfortunately, my boss is one of the worst offenders.

        1. NJ Anon*

          Most of us are ad well but its a nonprofit and we have to “bill” our time to certain grants and contracts. So I can just pay staff but crucial info would be missing. I dont have time to chase them around after the fact.

    2. rubyrose*

      I know this is evil and would not be agreed to by your payroll/finance folks. But has anyone ever tried just not paying?

      I would not let them miss 10 occurrences – I would go for 5.

      3. Observer*

        Seriously? That’s illegal.

        Besides, stiffing someone is not an appropriate response to someone not filling in their paperwork properly.

    3. Kowalski! Options!*

      Have you found that it’s the same people who forget, over and over again? Is it worth sitting down with them and asking them what’s preventing them from getting their timesheets in on time? Given that timesheets are related to getting paid, and everyone likes to get paid (I’m assuming…!), is there a glitch or a misunderstanding that might be holding things up?

    4. Natalie*

      I have this problem with a couple of my exempt staff and, honestly, at a certain point you have to just let it go unless you’re somehow being dinged for their failure to complete their time card. If their managers are aware and aren’t addressing it, and there are no natural consequences for failing to document their time, they basically have no motivation to do it.

    5. Toph*

      I think it’s an entirely reasonable thing for it to impact the performance reviews for consistent offenders, but that assumes that the managers are on board with the time entry process and are putting some active effort into communicating to the offenders ahead of time that, yes, you need to do this. If the managers aren’t helping with reinforcing the policy, you’ll get nowhere.
      If they are and it’s still a significant problem, you might need to find other ways for there to be consequences. For example, I know of a couple companies that do, sometimes, give out bonuses. They tied time entry to that. So if someone doesn’t submit timesheet by deadline three times, they’re not eligible for the annual bonus anymore. You’ll probably still have some people who just can’t be bothered to do it, but I’d expect that 30% to drop and stay much closer to 10% if you had some sort of incentive for being on time, or disincentive for not doing so (presuming just telling people “this is your job and not doing it is a performance issue” is not enough to change them).

    6. Ann O.*

      I am a terrible offender of this at my job. The reason why is because the time sheet requirement is silly for my position (truly, it’s not payroll connected). Since it affects nothing, it is constantly my last priority and I’m almost always caught up in more important things.

      I would guess there’s something similar at your workplace. People are busy; the time sheet is an annoying requirement; and there are minimal consequences to forgetting. If so, the only thing that’s going to change that is some kind of incentive for completing the time sheet or penalty for failing to do so. At one of my side gigs, I used to be horrible about filling out my time sheet even though it was connected to pay that I wanted to receive. But I didn’t need the pay on time, and the payroll person didn’t seem to mind when I turned it in late. Since a new person took over, I’ve been scolded and I have to use a different form if I’m late. That combination has been enough of a penalty to get me better about timeliness (although I’m still imperfect because I am truly very, very busy. I’m trying to make time for it now, though, whereas before I was just doing it whenever I remembered and had the time).

      So IMHO, you need either consequences, incentives, or to accept that part of your role will be chasing people down.

      1. Mark S*

        Most of jobs I’ve had in the past do not have a track sheet for time but, the ones I have had I’m very diligent about filling out. I think my main concern is not having a process in place to catch my errors or the errors of others. I notice there is no real answers out there or even studies showing how to reduce errors other than the SOP approach which I have implemented in my routine.

        Still even then it seems like I commit an error on my reports.

        Thank you again for your response :)

    7. Government Mule*

      I’ve seen this handled two ways. Manager fills in vacation time, or some generic office charge code. Then employee goes back to file correction later.

    8. Observer*

      As others have said, make sure that people know why this is important. And, yes, some carrots and consequences may make sense here. This is especially true if you have repeat offenders.

      1. Observer*

        Another thought. How well does your timekeeping system work? If getting in and recording this stuff is fiddly and makes you jump through hoops, or the system doesn’t always work or something like that, you are going to have a much lower compliance rate than something that just lets you do what you need to do in the minimum amount of steps and works all the time.

        1. Tuckerman*

          Fortunately, our system is very quick and easy to use. And they don’t need to record their hours per day (that pre-populates). They just need to enter exceptions (2 hrs vacation Thursday). The problem is if they do not enter their time, they still have those hours in their time bank. So they’re getting “extra” vacation time. Or, if they leave, we pay out vacation time. They would be getting extra money that they should not receive.

  69. The IT Manager*

    Asking for a friend since I have no relevant experience.

    Where to look for general job postings besides indeed and monster in a medium sized city?

    Friend is doing office admin, customer support, and graphic design and printing in a small dysfunctional family business. Education in art and graphic design but their job is about half graphic design and the printing of labels and flyers. Rest is helping the other front office employees with that stuff – answering phones, customer questions, taking orders.

    Is indeed and monster to way to go?

    Friend is not even sure what they want their career path to be (not necessarily all day at a desk) but they want/need out ASAP.

    1. Beth*

      Linkedin and Glassdoor also have job postings..
      I would also suggest going direct to the employers’ sites. If your friend isn’t sure what type of offices they want to work at, they could even look at a map and see what kind of businesses are around, and then go direct to the site.

      They could also try searching for “biggest employers in X area” or “Best employers in X area” lists to get ideas of specific employers to look at.

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Look into local temp agencies. Friend can try out some different things without committing to a career path.

      1. zora*

        Seconding this. And I usually have gotten a gig, at least a short-term one, within a couple of weeks of registering with a temp agency. I’ve had luck in a few different cities, some of medium-size.

  70. No more death*

    I am in the UK and I have a question about the equality act and redeploying to a different role.

    I have been in my role for 17 months. I am not well suited to my role. Trying to be vague and suffice it to say I work at a large health oriented place that um teaches about medicine, makes curriculuns and regulates it and investigates it. And my particular role involves with um information about incidences where um some things do not go how they should and sometimes thats fatal. I was not told this is what the information would be about or warned at all in my interview.

    I suffer with mental health issues and its just getting worse and worse and I cant do it anymore. I want to ask about moving to a different role as we are a massive organisation. I have a wide variety of experience and I think something else would suit me better.

    But I dont know how to ask or who. I am afraid it will jeopardise my employment and I will be pushed out but at the same time I dont think I can keep on. The care act mentions retraining/redeployment into a different role as a potential adjustment but I dont know how to go about doing that.

    Does anyone have any suggestions?

    1. Serious Sam*

      Any “large health oriented place” in the UK will have a union. Join it, and ask them about this problem.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        Sorry, but unions won’t help with problems that start before you join.

        However you could contact any or all of the following organisations for advice:
        ACAS
        Equality Advisory Service
        Remploy/Access to Work mental health support scheme
        Mind

        It sounds like you may be experiencing vicarious trauma? I also recommend contacting ASSIST Trauma Care.

        Links to come in follow up comment.

        2. Serious Sam*

          Officially, obviously not. Assistance from the full-time union officials will not be forthcoming. Unofficially, the local lay representatives may be quite willing to discuss the situation with you, let you know how similar situations have been resolved in the past and have informal discussions with HR for you.

          A good lay representative will have good relations with local HR, because both know that it is far easier to resolve an issue before it becomes official. In this case it will be far cheaper to the organization to get No More Death moved to a different role before they start clocking up sickness absence (a measure that HR is probably judged on). HR will not know that you have only just become a member, but the lay rep will understand that union membership depends on their reputation for actually helping people, so probably will not turn away someone with a problem and a signed membership form. Just don’t leave the union as soon at the issue is resolved.

          Are you sure your organization has no workplace stress procedures?

    2. Not So NewReader*

      My heart sank as I read this. I hope you can get to something different very soon.

      Does your place have a job board that says where there are new openings?

      1. No more death*

        Thanks.

        Yes it does but a lot of the roles aren’t posted on it. Many roles are filled straight through temp agencies directly for several months as getting new postings approved is difficult.

    3. misspiggy*

      It would be completely reasonable to ask for a transfer based on finding the work distressing. Particularly as it sounds like they don’t offer professional debriefings or counselling for staff. You wouldn’t have to disclose a mental health issue if you didn’t want to (and, also being in the UK, it might be better not to if you don’t have to.) I’d say definitely join the union, but don’t disclose mental health issues to your employer before joining.

      It all depends on how much longer you feel you can stay. You could ask for a transfer to a less distressing role and that should be taken reasonably. But it might take a while to arrange. However, you could also use the organisation’s job board or HR webpage to see if there are any short term roles that you could apply for while waiting for a more permanent role. That shouldn’t affect your employment rights if you’re continuously working for the same organisation, but you might want to check the ins and outs with the union.

      I’m also in the UK, and for a few weeks years ago I did temping which involved typing up distressing case hearings. Those cases still haunt me and I wouldn’t have been able to do it for long. No mental health issues to write home about – it is completely reasonable and common to find working with these issues unbearable. So don’t worry that you’ll be outing yourself by raising your need to transfer, or anything like that.

  71. Erin*

    I have an employee with transportation issues. Here’s the backstory. I work in retail and it’s coverage based. So only one person on the clock, until someone comes to relieve them. One of my employees doesn’t have her driver’s license or permit, and no plan in place to get them. And no plan to improve her transportation issues. She’s just turned 18 and a recent high school graduate. She’s been frequently late and having to rely on dial a ride friends and family to get to work. Which is unreliable in our area. we don’t have any other options for public transportation in our area. Work is not in a pedestrian friendly area either, think industrial side of town without sidewalks and 55 mph highway and on ramp for the free way. She’s been running late for work having to call in because she can’t find a ride, etc. Which means people are having to work doubles without breaks and other issues. It’s becoming a serious work problem. The only work around is only scheduling her on the weekends when she has reliable transportation. But our corporate wants the manager and assistant working on weekends when we’re busiest. Corporate will not Budge on scheduling her more on the weekends, and management less. I don’t know how to address this issue. How do I tell her that she needs to find more reliable transportation than dial a ride and friends that cancel on the last minute, and how should I go about it if there isn’t an improvement?

    1. Snark (formerly Liet)*

      I think you’re most of the way there. “Jane, as you know, this is a retail position and it’s coverage-based. That means we need you to have transportation that is reliable enough for you to arrive on time and ready to work for every shift. It’s up to you how to make that work, but if you continue to arrive late and inconvenience other employees because you can’t find transportation, we’re not going to be able to move forward with you in this position. At this point, I’m prepared to give you two weeks to have reliable transportation arranged or a solid date on which you plan to take your driver’s test.”

      1. Erin*

        In my state, if you’re over 18,
        You need to take a written test to get a permit, then you need 6 months to get 50 hours in of drive time before you can take a road test. This problem cannot wait 6 months to be solved. Also that doesn’t solve the issue of her not having a car.

    2. LCL*

      You will end up having to let her go. Her problems as you described aren’t solveable now, and she is aware of them. Telling her to find more reliable transportation won’t help, because if it was possible she would have done it already.
      Be nice, offer to give her a good reference if her work warrants it. In many areas in the US, (I’m assuming US because of what you write) it isn’t possible to work varied hours without a car, or access to one.

      1. Snark (formerly Liet)*

        This, too. You’d also be 100% in the right to terminate her right now. Tardiness is a performance issue.

    3. CatCat*

      She’s not showing up to work. It doesn’t seem like one she is interested in fixing this since it doesn’t sound like there are consequences. I’d meet with her about her performance issue. I’d tell her that she has pattern of failing to show up to her work shifts on time (if at all), this is a serious problem for the company, from now on she needs to show up to work shifts on time, and failure to show up on time going forward means that her job is on the line. If she is late again or cancels, let her go.

    6. Rebecca*

      I’m voting to let her go. She needs to find a job closer to home where she can walk or use public transportation if she won’t get her license. Even if she would get her license, that doesn’t mean she could afford a car or there would be one available to her. Insurance at that age can be pretty steep. It looks like you need to hire someone else.

    7. CityMouse*

      I was a teenager working in retail and all my former bosses would have fired me by now. I would give her a final warning but you cannot let your other employees keep having to cover for her. It is miserable.

    8. The IT Manager*

      What if she had a car and a driver’s license? Would you have fired her by now?

      It doesn’t matter the cause. She is consistently late and not doing anything to fix it. Being at work on time is important for this job. It’s past time to fire her.

    9. Rusty Shackelford*

      Do exactly what you’d do if she were missing shifts or showing up late for any other reason.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      Being on time is a standard in the retail industry. She can expect to be fired from any retail job when she is not punctual. The reason for the tardiness has little bearing here.

    11. Observer*

      She’s been consistently late and has no plans to fix the problem? How is the rest of her work? This doesn’t sound like someone who is very contentious.

      Which means that a conversation is a waste of time. You really need to let her go. Be kind, but explain why you are letting her go. Not as in “this is a discussion or negotiation.” But “I’m giving you two weeks notice. I just want you to know why so you can do better at your next job.”

      And, by the way, I don’t blame corporate for not budging. For one thing, unless you schedule her ONLY for the weekends, this is not really going to solve the problem. For another, it doesn’t sound like she’s the best employee out there.

  72. Fishcakes*

    I think my co-workers might be threatened by my skills. One in particular has been acting strangely toward me since I got hired. It gets worse whenever I reveal a new skill (I have a… multi-faceted background and education). I’ve been ignoring it and continuing to work to the best of my ability, but I think I might be hurting my chances of ongoing employment here. I’m kind of frustrated, because this has happened to me before. I swear I’m not arrogant! I’m friendly and smiley and often underestimated.

    1. No more death*

      Hmm I think it would help to know more about what skills and the context? And why do you feel it might affect your employment?

      I mean a receptionist who speaks 8 languages, does impressive graphic design, and can play the piano with her toes would intimidate me but I fail to see how that would risk their employment? My jealousy shouldnt be their problem…

      1. Fishcakes*

        I was hired as a general admin, but I’ve been doing a lot of writing, copyediting, web design, database management, and graphic design. My writing and editing is much better than anyone else in the company, and the high level staff who were hired to write and edit aren’t super thrilled. There is one employee who has been pushing to get moved into a design and communications role, but she has no skills in that area (yet).

        When this happened to me in the past I was bullied out of the job.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          It’s hard to know what the extent of the problem might be. What is she doing, like ignoring you or something?

        2. Morning Glory*

          Because this has happened twice in two separate offices, I wonder if you may be inadvertently coming in an off-putting way about this?

          It may not be fair, but I think in a lot of offices there is a difference between an admin being really good at these skills, and an admin coming across like she thinks she is than everyone else else at these skills (even if it is true).

          Not saying that is necessarily the case, you may just have had bad luck a couple of offices in a row.

          1. Fishcakes*

            It’s not “in a row.” The last time was over ten years ago in a very dysfunctional office.

        3. Ramona Flowers*

          “My writing and editing is much better than anyone else in the company”

          Are you making it very obvious that you see it this way?

          1. Fishcakes*

            No, but the Big Boss had me create a style and writing guide for all employees, which rubbed some people the wrong way.

    2. Liz*

      I have been in the same situation. I have asked if I am doing anything to communicate I think I am better than others but the answer is more just my competence. For example, once a head of a dept in a state university felt I threatened her job when I was a student worker! She only calmed down when i pointed out that it would have been impossible to hire me for her position even if i wanted it as i had none of the educational or experience requirements (state job, no flexibility on this). I think a solution is I should make others the beneficiary of my skills rather than feeling like they look worse bc of it. That might help here but often once people feel you are or act “better” than they are, they see everything in that light.

      1. Fishcakes*

        “I think a solution is I should make others the beneficiary of my skills rather than feeling like they look worse bc of it.”

        I’m doing that, too. My goal isn’t to try to make myself look better than everyone, but to show my benefit to the organization. One manager is slowly coming around because he’s realized that he can get me to plow through his huge backlog of reports that he has to write. And, of course, it’s much faster and cheaper to get someone to design something in-house than to go through an outside designer.

  73. Green T*

    It’s mid-year review time and I have a new manager again. This is my 4th manager in 3.5 years (frustrating). And this one is not great at writing reviews. Meaning he’s only ever done his own and he is not a wordsmith. Problem is neither am I. Does anyone know of any resources that will help me craft a better self review? I’m not great at the pretty, professional language that you usually see in reviews. I have a few old ones to look through but I’m wondering if there is anything else I can read that might help me craft a better sentence or two. Thanks

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I would aim for clear and understandable rather than pretty. For me, pretty can get vague/ambiguous really fast. Write in direct language. Say what you mean.

  74. Excited for the Future :)*

    I’m the OP earlier this week asking about when to approach your employer about whether they’d consider making accommodations when starting a family. A lot of you ended up pointing out issues with my relationship rather than answering the question at hand, which is understandable, albeit a bit annoying. But whatevs!

    I had commented months ago on a few non-work related open threads when the relationship was starting out and I was even more head over heals about everything. Y’all told me to Slow Down, which I really took to heart, I swear! In the short time we’ve dated – it’ll be a year next month – we’ve certainly had our issues, and I’ve already recognized many of the same potential problems that were brought up in this week’s thread. Ultimately, I weighed everything and I’m willing to take the chance that it’ll all work out for the best. Coupled with the fact that there may not be another chance anywhere in the near future and I’ve got a biological clock to think about (no comments plz!) I think it’s the best route for me right now.

    Bringing this back to be work related, I’ve been keeping an eye open on new mothers in my office to see what accommodations they’ve received. I’ve actually covered for a couple 12-week maternity leaves, so that’s one of them! The girl who just came back at the end of June has had afternoons off and later starts, which is also promising. And I’ve also noticed there’s a dedicated Mother’s Room here! As for remote work, there are a lot of people who already work at home, including my supervisor. Granted they’re all more tenured than me, but I have a good relationship with my supervisor and I think if I broach the subject with her down the road she may be receptive.

    I mentioned in one of the comments that the SO and I both have retired parents nearby who may be able to help with childcare too if I do end up working from home, though we haven’t talked to them about it yet (I haven’t even mentioned to my parents that we’ve been looking at rings!) I’m trying REALLY HARD not to get too ahead of myself, LOL :)

    1. RobertG*

      I’m saying this to you as a guy – if you want to have a child with your boyfriend at any point in the future, you need to have countless conversations about what it will involve. Get into the details about what it would be like for each of you, how you would split up the responsibilities, what your values and priorities are. I saw you use phrases like “I’ll cross that bridge when I get there,” which is troubling. You two need to be a team before you can even think of creating a human life together. He is clearly not on the same page with you. You said you have to wait for a good time when he’s not in one of his moods so that you can talk to him about the realities of having children. Unless something dramatically changes, I can guarantee that you will be unhappy as a new mother due to his attitudes. It’s not fair to you or to your future children. I have seen it happen with my good friends. Some of them are excellent fathers but a couple are terrible because they didn’t actually know what they were going into and continue to expect their wives to do all of the child-related emotional and physical work. If your boyfriend were one of my buddies, I’d have a talk with him about what it means to be a responsible and communicative partner.

    2. Kage*

      Since you’re not yet pregnant, I would recommend getting really clear on what your company offers and how that will work for you. It is never too early to start planning financially for this shift.

      You know folks who have had 12-week leaves, so that sounds like your company is held to FMLA (assuming you’re in the US). As a reminder, FMLA is unpaid. Can you afford 12-weeks unpaid? This lack-of-income period would also be right after you hit the big expense of your healthcare deductible so money can be really tight. And while out, your company can make you pay for your share of insurance premiums/etc (the stuff normally deducted from your paycheck, but since you aren’t getting a paycheck, still needs to be paid).

      Does your company offer Short Term Disability (STDis)? STDis will cover a portion of your pay (60-70%) and only for a limited time (I’ve seen as little as 2 weeks and as long as 8 weeks of actual payments after waiting periods). Can you store and roll over your PTO to cover/pay you while out to help supplement that coverage? If so, start limiting your use of PTO now to build up that stockpile.

      Don’t depend entirely on family being willing to consistently watch your kid. Getting stuck in regular babysitting duty limits one’s ability to travel/do other things. Your parents/in-laws might not want that lifestyle at this point in their lives. Better to plan for if they aren’t going to provide childcare. Look into infant daycare costs in your area. If you can, start putting that amount aside now into savings. This would let you build up a nest egg to help cover any income-loss while out on maternity leave and will also help you adjust to the reduced disposable income you’ll have after baby and once it starts daycare.

    3. Clever Name*

      Love is wonderful, and you aren’t wrong to be excited. Don’t let your biological clock do all the thinking, though.

  75. Sunflower*

    Can you note on your resume that you took over your manager’s role of overseeing everything while they were hiring someone else? Is there a certain amount of time you’d need to have taken it over for it to be noteworthy on your resume?

    1. WellRed*

      I totally plan to put filled in for my manager while she was on maternity leave (3 months).

    2. Graciosa*

      My first test is whether whatever you put on your resume would be immediately verified by HR or your manager. If you’re the 2IC at all times, you can note that (perhaps on the same line as your title) without specifying how often you’re called into action. On the other hand, if you covered for short absences – for example, those on my team who cover during my vacations or business travel – that’s not really a resume-worthy item, and HR or your manager may be thinking hard for a moment to remember your time in that role.

      I would also caution that you should be focused on accomplishments rather than duties in your resume. If you’re thinking about adding covering for your manager as an accomplishment, I would expect you to have something else to say about it beyond simply providing the coverage. There is a difference between “Achieved 1200 teapot per hour production rate while leading teapot line #2 in manager’s absence” and “Covered for manager when manager was out.” The latter wouldn’t merit space on a strong resume.

      You should not be discouraged even if you lack the kind of accomplishments that would lead to including this as a line item. It’s a terrific thing to mention in interviews as you segue into examples from your time in the leadership role.

      Good luck

  76. Kowalski! Options!*

    Not so much a question as a funny observation:

    I just came back from doing some testing for a new job I’m applying for, and part of the application process was a behavioural/business acumen examination. After reading the situations on the test pages, it was hard not to have Alison’s voice ring in my head: “Yeah, that might not be the best approach….”; “It depends on what your corporate culture is like…..”

    FWIW, Alison sounded a bit like Courtney Cox with a hint of Mae West slyness. I don’t know if she sounds like that IRL…. I might be spending a bit too much time on here. :)

    2. mreasy*

      Alison’s voice is a delightful surprise! I recommend listening to one of the podcast episodes she’s been on.

  77. Junior Dev*

    I am going to talk to my boss about this at some point, but…we are rebuilding a website in a framework that I am more familiar with than a lot of my co-workers, even though I’ve been at the company the shortest time. They are making a lot of mistakes characteristic of people who don’t understand the framework, and are writing code in a very disorganized way that’s duplicating a lot of the same problems that led us to rebuild the site in the first place.

    How do I deal with this as the most junior person? I’m thinking of sending out some articles on the correct way to do things in this framework but I can’t make anyone read or use them. My only real opportunity to influence other people’s code is via code review and I don’t have time to thoroughly review everything anyone writes. How do I get them to do this better?

    1. Incognito*

      When you talk to your boss offer to give your co-workers a presentation/training session to share your lessons learned with them. You are probably right people are not going to take the time to read articles. They might read a quick one page tip sheet. Can you boil down the most common mistakes and best practices into a quick reference list? I’ve done this as have other co-workers and people find it really useful in conjunction with a training session.

      Another thing I have done for others and have also found helpful for myself is to have examples of code and other things. I have made templates for things that I use over and over again and shared them with co-workers. Those are things that may help people to be more organized in the way they are writing code.

  78. blank*

    My old manager left for greener pastures and my new manager is… interesting. Manager A was really laid back, kind, and supportive. Manager B is controlling rude, and dismisses my career aspirations. He just sent an email to my department demanding to know our vacation days for the rest of the year. Is this normal?

    1. KiteFlier*

      It makes sense that a new manager wants to know the vacation schedule for his team.

    2. rubyrose*

      KiteFlyer is right – it makes sense for the manager to know what vacation has been scheduled.

      With such a vast difference you describe between your old and new manager, is it possible that the company was not happy with how the old manager handled your department and brought in someone with another style on purpose? I’m not saying that bringing in someone who is rude and controlling is the right thing to do. But your old manager should have left the vacation schedule for the replacement.

      1. blank*

        Oh, Manager A left over 6 months ago. My coworkers and I just found the request bizarre as neither of us have ever had to get vacation time cleared over 4 months in advance.

    3. Liz*

      Do you mean already scheduled vacations or does she want to lock you into planning all the vacation time for the rest of the year even if you don’t know yet? From reading AAM, I would say your new boss is not atypical even if she is not what you would hope for.

      1. blank*

        The latter. They want to know intended vacation days from now until the December 31.

    4. Ann O.*

      I would not find it normal for a manager to want to know the vacation days for the rest of the year in July, no. Other workplaces may vary, but in tech, I’ve never worked anywhere where the expectation was that people would plan so far in advance. My managers have always worked on a per quarter basis.

      1. tigerStripes*

        Where I work, they usually want vacation days planned that far in advance, but they do allow changes.

  79. KarenT*

    I have officially found the downside of having a company car. I hit a pole yesterday, and scratched the car pretty deeply. Now I have to turn myself in–I feel like a teenager about to confess to her parents.

    2. Clever Name*

      Ha. I’ve dinged a company car before too. It’s never fun to have to fess up.

  80. Prying coworker*

    How can I politely tell a coworker to mind their own business? I have a coworker that covers my essential tasks if I take PTO. Whenever I tell her I’m going to be out so she can plan on covering for me, she tries to guess what I’m doing or outright asks me. I’m only telling her so she knows to do the tasks not have a conversation about my plans. I don’t want to tell what my plans are but I also don’t want to be rude.
    This is complicated by the fact this coworker thinks we are friends and she knows family members of mine so she knows more about my life from them than I would like but I have tried to keep my distance as I only see her as a coworker, not a friend. Suggestions on how to politely get out of answering?

    1. Snark (formerly Liet)*

      “Jane, I know it’s not intended this way, but it feels a little intrusive when you try to guess what my plans are when I take PTO or outright ask. Please don’t do that. If want to share my plans, I will, but I generally like to be more private with coworkers.”

      And she will have Feelings about that, and may seek to guilt-trip you about that, but you can just reply, “Really, it’s nothing personal, I just don’t want to discuss my plans outside work.”

    2. Kasia*

      I think you can just give really vague answers whenever she asks. The less information you give the less she’ll want to ask.
      “Just hanging around the house”
      “Just catching up on some errands”
      “I don’t have anything planned, just wanted the day off”

    3. LCL*

      Just because someone asks a question doesn’t mean you have to give them a straight answer. A question is not a magical compulsion spell, where you have to answer truthfully and completely. Likewise, there isn’t any one size fits all magic response (a ‘script’) that will make questioners shut up and be happy about it.

      ‘Vacation’ or ‘away from here’ works well. That is straightforward, direct, not disrespectful and meets your needs.
      Asking someone their plans after you are told they will be out of the office is normal, not rude human behavior.
      Not wanting to tell someone your plans, especially if they involve medical leave or personal stuff instead of vacation is normal, not rude human behavior.
      Answering with a vague answer is normal, polite, human behavior.
      Turning these questions into an opportunity to reinforce MYOB principles is passive aggressive.

      1. Anon and alone*

        A question is not a magical compulsion spell, where you have to answer truthfully and completely.
        Unless of course you have the Lasso of Hestia wrapped around you (or your wrist). lol. I’m sorry I couldn’t resist.

  81. KR*

    Dear AAM community, this week my workload by 90%. Also I’m supposed to have my office renovated this summer and be in charge of it but contractors are. not. calling. me. back. I just want to give you money! Please! Just give me a quote! I have a work trip coming up as well so I’m going to have to shell out $100+ for a pet-sitter for my cat. Luckily the dog can stay with a friend. UGH.

  82. MysteryScienceEmployee3000*

    I was hired as a non-exempt employee and my position has grown and grown into what should be classified as an exempt position. I talked to my boss and he agreed and he suggested that I re-write my job description so he can bring it to HR for review. I’m not sure if there is anything special that I need to say to make it clear that I have a completely independent role. Should I just put lots of “manages ___” and “Independently does ___.”
    For background, I was hired as a clerk that moved data around, and now I’m a developer and I manage 100% of my business’s reporting. I do all the research, builds, and monitoring of current systems.

    1. Graciosa*

      I would google the factors used in FLSA evaluations and use that as a source of guidance.

  83. Paul Jameson*

    I manage an often production-oriented university marketing office that develops promotional materials for other departments on campus. My project manager is growing increasingly hostile towards our internal clients because of missed deadlines on their part or last-minute emergency requests (that the client may or may not even end up using). To most people in the office, this is frustrating, but an unfortunate business as usual. We incorporate policies and try to be proactive when we can to mitigate these issues, but ultimately we are asked to produce materials for people we have no direct supervisory role.

    My project manager now frequently questions the university administration’s leadership ability for not holding people accountable and isn’t very customer friendly. How do I set clear guidelines for customer service while still being a supportive supervisor to someone caught with a responsibility but no authority? It feels like it is growing to a level of general verbally insubordinate behavior towards the university president and his cabinet members. “Why can’t they hold people accountable!? It’s not right. Is there no one who can tell these people what to do?”

    I wish people were held accountable for their responsibilities too, but aside from what the university is already doing with employees to encourage de-siloing and healthy confrontation, there’s not going to be a massive purge of all the people who miss deadlines. She seems incapable of realizing this is an industry-wide issue of little fiefdoms and strained resources. While the projects are central to her, they’re only one tiny bit of other people’s workload.

    I worry this is affecting morale for everyone else in the office who have to listen to her complaints or endure when meetings get taken over with her venting sessions. Again, I want to be supportive, but I think I take a wider perspective of the challenges faced by the institution. Any ideas? Thanks.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      It’s hard to argue the point when she’s basically right.

      So rather than trying to tell her she is wrong why not borrow from Alison. “This is the way it is and it’s not going to change.” Then ask her if she can learn coping tools for when things fall through the cracks. Explain to her she is not going to change an entire Empire.

    2. Chaordic One*

      Yes, your project is basically correct and the situation sucks for her. She is probably getting labeled as someone who has an “attitude problem,” even though it is understandable under the circumstances. I hope she’s started a job search because the situation isn’t going to get any better.

      In my previous experience, the conscientious (but crabby) program director ended up being fired for her attitude. She was replaced by a more easy-going person. Under the replacement, missed deadlines resulted in late promotional materials, sometimes too late for the actual event. The replacement was very good at offering apologies for the late materials.

  84. Incognito*

    If I leave my current job without anything lined up, how do I explain this to potential employers?

    I have interviews lined up, but really just want to leave my job regardless and ASAP. The stress is making me ill, and I feel like it is having a negative impact on my interviews. It is definitely having a negative impact on my ability to work at my current job. It is also killing my self-esteem and self-confidence, which I feel are really key to have intact when interviewing. I feel like I need to cut my losses and save my sanity, but there’s that old saying “It’s easier to get a job when you have a job.” Sure, but how much is that also working against me when my job has me so stressed out I’m hardly at my best in just about every aspect of my life. Last week a woke up and starting crying before I even got out of bed. It’s just not good.

    I have the savings cushion, and the job market right now is really good. Economic conditions are favorable for leaving without anything lined up, but I struggle with how to explain that.

    1. Snark (formerly Liet)*

      I don’t think you need to explain anything proactively. If someone asks, you could say, “I did some planning to give myself the time to focus entirely on my job search,” and I think that’s all the semi-explanation anybody needs.

      It’s maybe a little easier to get a job when you have a job, but not so much easier that you should tolerate stress levels that leave you crying in bed.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      You don’t have to explain it at all. Say “I’m taking some time to work on personal projects” or something to that effect.

      I feel for you! I worked in a toxic environment once too, and had to quit for my mental health. I was out of work for about a month, and it was a good month for me. I was able to take good care of myself and get back to a healthy place.

    3. Lily Rowan*

      Especially if you do it right now (and you’re in the northern hemisphere) — you can say how glad you were to have had the ability to take the summer off between jobs! if you do anything specific, all the better, but that should be enough.

    4. Roza*

      +1 to all the comments here! Toxic work environments take such an enormous toll on you. I was in one once too, and even though I was intellectually aware that crying all the time wasn’t the best sign, I’ve been amazed at how much happier I’ve been since getting out. Enjoy a beautiful summer off and get yourself back to a happy, healthy place.

    5. Incognito*

      Thank you folks for the reality check. I’m really struggling with this one.

      I ended my day on an up note with positive feedback from a recent interview I felt sure I had failed miserably. They are not going to offer me that position, but it really just made my day to hear I didn’t suck nearly as bad as I thought I did. It was a really hard interview for a stretch position in a company that is in a related field/industry but not where my experience and expertise is. I struggled with unfamiliar questions in an unfamiliar environment. I was under consideration for more than one role. It was important to make a good impression on that first interview whether or not I remained a top candidate for that specific job. So no offers yet, but going into the weekend on a positive note.

  85. NotoriousMCG*

    After about a year of working multiple part time jobs in my field after relocating for my spouse’s work – I got a job with a large company doing something field-adjacent this past March. I like my coworkers, I enjoy the work, but it’s not what I want to do long-term. I have an interview today for an amazing job at a organization in my field and I think I have a good shot. My question is two-fold:

    1. If I move to the second stage of interviews the timing isn’t great. I had to schedule today’s skype interview in between coming home from a work trip for Current Job and going to the airport for vacation. Luckily I live five minutes from the airport, so I should be able to make the flight. Then I am out of state for 10 days, home for two weeks, and then out of state for another two weeks for a Current Job work trip. I am a local candidate, but I’m afraid I’m going to have to interview as if I were remote because of scheduling issues. Any tips to mitigate?

    2. If I am hired, it’s looking as though my notice would be either right before or right after I am gone for the previously mentioned work trip for Current Job. I am also likely to get a promotion to a manager salaried position (currently hourly coordinator) almost immediately upon my return. If it looks as though I may get New Job but it takes longer than I anticipate, is there a way to gracefully delay a promotion?

    1. em2mb*

      Honestly, if you explained this, my organization wouldn’t bat an eye. It’s July. It’s a time a year when half our employees are out at some point or another for their own vacations. If you have experience in your field and are qualified for the job (and this is a good place to work!), then they’ll understand that you have to keep living during your job hunt.

  86. Sophia C*

    What’s the best way to list kind of a strange major on your resume? Like, an interdisciplinary humanities major that has a particular name at your school that nobody not from that school would recognize (but is very similar to the English major at a school that also has an English major)? Hope the employer asks about it? Put something in parentheses by the name of your major?

    1. Snark (formerly Liet)*

      Maaaaybe put something in parens?

      BS, World Teapot Studies (interdisciplinary study of geopolitics and teapot design), Darjeeling University, 2017.

      Hm. Not in love with that, but…

  87. Aunt Vixen*

    Friends,

    Circumstances have shifted in such a way that starting next month, I will be teleworking two days a week (and still permitted to do so at unscheduled times if necessary for other reasons). I’ve been wishing for this for three years as my commute has got worse and worse (I haven’t moved; it’s just that Metro is determined to make all our lives miserable, am I right, fellow DCers?) and now that I have a little baby I’d like to spend any time at all with on work days, being able to realign my schedule in this way is about the happiest thing that could have happened to me.

    \o/

    1. Emi.*

      AUGH, I missed two buses this morning while they worked to resolve an issue as soon as possible, so I feel ya. Congrats on the new arrangement and the adorable baby :)

    2. Anonymous Poster*

      Everytime I hear “We’ll be moving momentarily” I wonder what universe they live in where a ‘moment’ is 15 minutes.

      1. Aunt Vixen*

        My rage is generally reserved for the message “We apologize for any inconvenience.” As if there were a chance there weren’t any. (The word they should be using is “this.”)

        But! Yesterday I was on a train whose operator said “We are holding momentarily for a schedule adjustment,” and I was so chuffed by the [prescriptively] correct use of “momentarily” – usage changes, but historically “momentarily” means “for a moment,” not “in a moment” – that I almost didn’t mind the extra TWO MINUTES EACH AT METRO CENTER AND DUPONT CIRCLE. (Ahem. Almost.)

      2. My name is Inigo Montoya*

        I’ve officially given up on DC public transport – as long as Uber / Lyft remains cheap. When my bus / metro trip is $3.80 and an Uber or Lyft is $5.00 but I save 20+ minutes… That said, on random days it’s crazy more expensive to Uber in and I’m back on train, it’s super rough to not knowing if you’ll be 20 minutes early for work or 45 minutes late.

        That being said – I’m thrilled you’re having some telework days! I never thought I’d be OK teleworking (and I still prefer coming into the office) but there are just some days where the idea of quiet time to focus and avoiding the commute sound amazing!

        1. Bea W*

          Wow. I live in Boston 6 miles from work at most, and to get an Uber or Lyft the entire way during rush hour is over $50, often closer to $75. It’s about $20 other times. I did that on the 2 miles between South Station and Kendall Square during morning rush because it was just too damn cold to walk it, and that was $25. Definitely not a cheap alternative here. I do it only as a last resort (or when I run out of f**ks).

          I recently got a mass email from the Metro (DC – I visit frequently) bragging how they finished 3 years worth of track work in 1 year. I LOLed and thought “This is not going to end well.”

      3. CityMouse*

        My favorite awful is when you get stuck downtown in a tunnel and you realize you could have walked from say, Archives to Gallery or judiciary square to Union in the time you have been waiting.

        1. Anonymous Poster*

          Yes, I’ve had this swarms of times. Hoofed it from Farragut West to L’Enfant because it was faster than waiting for who knows what to clear in the tunnels.

        2. Bea W*

          I do this all the time in Boston. Did it yesterday. Got through the turnstile and saw the platform was packed, and turned right around. BTDT. It’s 2 miles to my connecting commuter train home. I was not going to make it in time walking, but I certainly was not going to make it in time waiting either, and the weather was awesome. Why waste it. When it’s that bad, it is often quicker to just walk the 2 miles. Heck, if I was a bit braver (or had a death wish) I could join the bike share for this sort of thing.

          There had been no delay announcements, but what I saw on my way over the bridge was one inbound train sitting half out of the tunnel on the Cambridge side, another inbound train sitting on the Boston side, and a packed platform on the outbound side. Apparently someone fell into the track pit further into town, and power had been cut while they rescued the guy. This had been going on 20-30 minutes. Really, couldn’t someone made an announcement as soon as it was known they’d be cutting power. Why it so hard? WHY?

  88. Deinonychus*

    I am currently covering for my boss and doing the work of 2.5 people. My boss sucks and isn’t going to change.
    I am not good with confrontation or arguing and I am very worried this time when she comes back there will be more yelling and recriminations about how I could have managed the department better in her absence. I need strategies for dealing with difficult managers here and keeping my cool in the face of irrationality.

    Last time I did this there were multiple fires and surprise projects that she hadn’t finished but needed to be done that I had to put out and subsequently dropped the ball on others – I apologized for not having everything done. I tried to suggest ways we could cover for her next time that would be better, or at least moderate expectations – I can’t be expected to do her job better than she does, and my job on top of it. Her response was just that I should have tried harder. I should have walked out then, but I did not. Did I mention my boss sucks and isn’t going to change?

    1. Deinonychus*

      Actually, let me clarify a bit – I am doing the work of an entire department, including administrative tasks, managing projects with other departments, doing the work itself, and handling clients. We are overwhelmed when both of us are here, let alone when she leaves, and she does not delegate well and is not organized.

      1. LCL*

        I can offer some suggestions of things to say. I used these when I was doing extra duties. But these things won’t solve the problem of disorganization and overwork. First, stop apologizing.
        1. There is only one of me. I work M-Fr, 40 hours a week.
        2. That’s on my list.
        3. I will do that on X day at X time.
        4. I can’t stand here and be yelled at, it makes it impossible for me to work. Then walk away.

        When she is calm, you both have to talk about the workload and what can and can’t be done. Sounds like she knows you and her are overworked, but for whatever reason she won’t bring this to her management. Maybe if you kept a list of tasks you did during one week you could show her how much you are doing.

        1. Deinonychus*

          Thanks for the advice. I’m used to being a pleaser and get overly worried about when I’m “failing”, as a former studious kid and academic.

          We share an office, and she’s the owner, so I can’t run it further up the pole, unfortunately. I have a full list of everything on the go currently – it’s not short. I’m trying to decide if I can “walk away” to my corner of the room or if I should just go home, if things escalate. I fear it’s the nuclear option and will be interpreted as quitting, but after 8 years it’s not going to change.

          1. LCL*

            Your analysis is really clearheaded about what is going on. You know her best. You are in a situation where your best will never be good enough. You are stuck with her if you stay, sounds like.

          2. neverjaunty*

            She’s not going to fire you. You’re doing the work of 2+ people and putting up with her abuse, and on some level she’s aware that a new person has not been acclimated to her nonsense.

  89. Bend & Snap*

    How do I gracefully bow out of an interview process with a major company based on conversations with hiring managers, without burning a bridge? They used the word “intense” like 87 times and said it’s a 24/7 on-call job and I’m like nooooope but IDK how to word the email.

      1. NotoriousMCG*

        It’s inconsiderate of the interviewer’s time if you continue in the process with no intention of taking the job. I would go for ‘Due to changing circumstances I need to withdraw myself from consideration. Thank you for your time and best of luck in finding the best candidate.’

        1. Snark (formerly Liet)*

          That’d be the way to do it, but I don’t think it’s a waste of their time. The interview already happened, everybody is considering next moves, and frankly I think it’s likely that Bend made their disinterest pretty clear.

          1. TCO*

            Bend might be a great actor! Plus, if the next step involves calling references or doing some sample work, that’s taxing on the candidate’s time and/or network. Best to avoid that.

            1. Snark (formerly Liet)*

              Ah, yeah, that’s a good point. OK, definitely bow out with an email.

          2. NotoriousMCG*

            Well we don’t know what part of the process they’re in. There could be several interviews following

        2. Detective Amy Santiago*

          I think Snark’s point was that Bend doesn’t need to proactively remove herself from consideration. If they reach out and either want to schedule another interview or with an offer, she can decline at that point (using your script).

      2. TCO*

        I’d bow out now if you’re really positive you wouldn’t accept an offer. Why waste their time when they could be pursuing a candidate you might actually want the job?

        I’ve bowed out a few times. I just use language like, “It’s been a pleasure to get to know you and XYZ Company during this process. I don’t believe this is the right opportunity for me right now, so I’d like to remove myself from candidacy so that you can focus your time on other candidates. Thank you for interviewing me.”

    2. Willowbough*

      I’d write something like: “Thank you for considering my application for (position). After careful reflection I have concluded that the position would not be a good fit for me, so I have decided to withdraw my application. Thank you for taking the time to discuss the role with me, I really appreciate it.”

    3. Bend & Snap*

      So this interview was last week, I verbally expressed interest because I have a GET THE JOB mentality sometimes, and then I hung up and was like WTF no. It was a second phone interview, next step would be to go to New York and meet the team, but I don’t have an indication that they’re going to advance me or not. I didn’t write a thank you note.

      This is a company that has jerked me around in the past so maybe I’ll just wait it out. It could very well fizzle.

      1. Graciosa*

        It’s much more professional to bow out gracefully, regardless of how the company behaved in the past. Even in companies with less than stellar systems (I just spent two days fighting to get a form letter sent!) there are individuals who notice these things – and sometimes they remember, and sometimes you encounter them later at other companies.

        Everything you do contributes to your reputation. Take a few minutes to withdraw gracefully and enhance yours.

    4. Lumen*

      Short, to the point, don’t explain your reasoning (or making up a fake reason). “Changing circumstance” is enough. If they are desperate to know why, they will reach out to ask. But chances are they will go “Aw, too bad” and move on (and appreciate that you did not keep them on the hook).

  90. chickadee*

    I’m looking at going back to school to become a CPA (through a masters of accountancy type program) and would appreciate any advice/comments. For some background, I am currently a law librarian (I have a JD and a library science masters), but am realizing that I don’t really want to stay in this career for a variety of reasons. Because it is a small field, promotion requires relocation, and I’m not interested in relocating anytime soon. Also, I don’t think I’m suited for academia in the long run (I can write well but I don’t have the interest or drive to publish).

    I don’t have a finance background, but math doesn’t scare me and I do really like tax law, so I’m thinking I could translate the JD and the accounting degree into working on taxation in some capacity. What I don’t know is if these masters programs are a viable way to break into the field and how difficult it would be to get a relevant job for the year of experience my state requires to become a CPA.

    1. De Minimis*

      The main value in accounting graduate programs for people changing careers is access to a recruiting pipeline, if there are a lot of employers who interview the school’s accounting students then it may be worth doing. It seemed like a lot of employers are only interested in new grads.

      A lot of it also depends on your overall goals. Are you interested in pursuing a Big 4 career or something smaller? A lot of Big 4 tax people have JDs. The big difficulty with tax is that there are fewer opportunities outside of public accounting, depending on where you live. Some cities have a lot more options for tax professionals.

      I went to grad school for accounting for a career change, and I think it’s worth doing depending on a person’s goals and how good the career options are at a particular school. I started out in tax but wasn’t a fit for public accounting and now do non-profit accounting work [after working in government for a while.]

      Accounting is not that math-heavy, it’s mainly arithmetic and basic algebra. A person should have a good head for numbers [as one prof put it, “If you can’t give me 10% of a number without reaching for a calculator, you may have a problem.]

    2. CityMouse*

      FWIW I have a friend whose degree was in classics and she is now an awesome Cpa. If there are extra requirements, you can usually pick them up before. A JD/CPA can be valuable in the right field too.

    3. Anon in IL*

      That sounds exciting — with a JD & a CPA, you can pretty much write your own ticket.

      I work in tax. It is rewarding but grueling. I essentially do not see family or friends from January until May. It is physically, mentally, and emotionally challenging. Summers and autumns, on the other hand, are much more relaxed.

      Many tax firms hire extra help during the season — evenings and/or weekends. Before committing to the CPA, maybe you could try out the field with a part-time job in addition to your current job. It would probably be office/reception work, but you would get a good feel for what a tax season is like. I would recommend to anyone considering tax as a career that they see a tax season first-hand before investing the time and money in a degree.

    4. Hibiscus*

      I would also consider the auditing branch of accounting too. JD plus research plus writing ability is a good match for either financial or performance auditing.

    5. ronda*

      I would say to try to get a few contacts at your states society of CPAs & ask them about the specifics in your area.
      this is the website for the one for GA http://www.gscpa.org/Content/Home.aspx

      Do a little bit of checking-in on what is avail in your area and if you think it would fit before investing in getting your masters. There are even masters of taxation if you are that specific in your interest.

      My sister is a sales/use tax manager at a company. She has monthly filings instead of the yearly filing that you get with being in income tax. So the schedule does vary based on the sub-field of taxation.

  91. Robert*

    Weird situation at my new job.

    We had a summer intern start a few days ago. Because I work at a state government agency, things are slow to get set up. Our intern doesn’t have his own computer yet. So I’ve been printing stuff and fielding questions for him.

    Today I got a call from his manager saying that I’d made the intern uncomfortable. Manager didn’t elaborate on that.

    Intern has some weird mannerisms that make me uncomfortable. For one, he’ll stand in my cubicle, next to my chair (as in, legs in contact with my chair), shifting his weight from foot to foot and not talking. If I ask him if he needs anything, he’ll just say no. He also grabs stuff off my desk and looks though it (paperwork, mouse and keyboard too) without saying anything.

    I’ve tried to be polite but it’s possible that that my discomfort with his lack of personal space unconsciously came across when I was talking to him. But I’m not sure how to proceed. Any advice?

    1. Rebecca*

      I think I’d ask the manager for specifics. This sounds sort of strange. Here’s an intern, standing so close to you that he is right up against your chair, yet when you ask him if he needs anything, he says no, and picks up things from your desk without asking. That would make me uncomfortable, but yet he’s telling his manager he is uncomfortable. I’m puzzled by this.

      1. Robert*

        He’s a kid. I can understand him being nervous at this place.

        But I’m not sure how to open that conversation with him. The lack of personal space is really weird to me. I haven’t said anything like “you don’t need to stand so close to me,” and now I’m disinclined to because he’s reported that I did…something…to his manager.

        BTW, everyone on this floor realizes he’s nervous and new to office jobs (we’re not judging, because we were all kids once), but his boss works in a different location.

        1. Natalie*

          I don’t think you need to make it into a huge conservation. “Hey, don’t rifle through the papers on my desk.” “Sorry, can you back up about a foot? I have a bigger personal space bubble than you.”

      2. Liz*

        I would suggest someone else field the questions and print stuff for her. Stop helping if not wanted. Someone else can be involved and find out that the intern is a bit off, needs more direction, or whatever.

    2. Fabulous*

      “I wanted to follow up on your call earlier when you mentioned I’d made the intern uncomfortable. Could you elaborate a bit on when he felt that way? I’d like to help him feel more comfortable here, but truthfully I’ve been a bit put off by some of his mannerisms too. He may not realize when he’s intruding too closely in others’ personal space, so it’s possible that my discomfort brushed off a bit onto him.”

    3. Been there*

      This is one conversation I’d have in person with the intern’s manager. Depending how the conversation goes I think I’d bow out of direct contact with the intern in the future.

      “Bob, I wanted to follow up with you about the intern. Do you have more information you can share? ” Depending how the conversation goes you could at the end say “Hmm, I certainly don’t want anyone to be uncomfortable at work including me , perhaps Jane could take over the work that I was preparing for him”

      It would be odd to me if the manager didn’t already see the odd behavior the intern is exhibiting, and you’ve given the manager a great out and/or made the intern their problem.

      1. LCL*

        He’s new and weird and unsure, that’s all forgiveable, we’ve all been there. But he’s already complaining about you, and it’s something as vague as ‘uncomfortable’? Stay far far away from this one. Push it back on the manager ASAP. When you do have to interact with him for work, do it out of your cubicle and in a neutral public part of your office. Manager is also being a bit of a tool by telling you something this nebulous.

    4. Fresh Faced*

      I’d ask for specifics with the manager, and maybe the intern afterwards as there may be a miscommunication there. It might be a case of the intern being uncomfortable with the whole situation rather than you specifically. (New job nerves, not having a computer, having to ask you to print things for him, having to be in your cubicle a lot and not knowing what to do when waiting) I can see how for example the intern telling his manager “I’m uncomfortable asking Robert for printouts all the time” could be taken as you being the reason he’s uncomfortable, as opposed to asking for printouts being uncomfortable to him. I mean it could just be him being weird, but with everything else you described I lean more towards miscommunication.

  92. Sup Sup Sup*

    I don’t have a real question. I’m wrapping up getting a degree (in another field) and I’m finding that the closer I get to the graduation the less I care about my job. I’m coasting and eventually I think I’m going to get found out, which will be a problem, because getting a job in my chosen field is likely to take a lot of time and I need my current job until I get my future job.

    1. JustaTech*

      I’m totally in that place and I’ve found that working on my resume and writing cover letter has actually made me more motivated at work. “Oh, if I do this thing I can add it to my resume” or “how would I demonstrate this skill? Can I do it here?” That kind of thing.
      But yeah, changing careers takes *forever*, at least for me.

  93. Nutella Jar*

    I wanted to give an update from last week’s post: https://www.askamanager.org/2017/06/open-thread-june-30-july-1-2017.html#comment-1541700

    I told my father about my two week notice, and things have not been going well. Before I had told him on Monday, I had received an email from him that he hated the work I did for a project and redid it all himself, so this week started on a bad note. The two week notice made everything worse.

    I don’t have another job lined up, but I want to leave to help my poor mental health. I also want to move to the city where my boyfriend lives because I don’t feel emotionally safe at home. My parents are furious about the whole deal, and they’re really furious that I don’t have another job lined up. My boyfriend said I can live with him temporary until I get back on my feet. My parents believe that living together is a sin and it would be stupid to even consider living with him, so they want me to get a job first so I can get my own apartment. There was more to this talk to me, but it was about religion and how my boyfriend and I probably won’t have a good marriage because we’re different religions, but that’s not work-related so I won’t mention more about it here.

    My dad made a “compromise” that I can work part time so I have time to go do interviews. I don’t know how to feel about it. I also find the compromise strange since I had to beg to get my paid vacation and have gotten in trouble for using sick days. My mind is really frazzled, and I would really like some advice. Please help.

    2. Anne*

      You don’t have to keep working there, he can’t make you do it. And you have a great escape plan – you will be able to move to another city and have a place to stay there while you look for a job!

      You’ll be happier, healthier, and less stressed out if you quit this job, and you’ll be happier, healthier, and less stressed out if you move out of your parents’ house. In six months you’ll wonder why you ever even thought of staying.

    3. Snark (formerly Liet)*

      You don’t need to compromise. I strongly, strongly suggest you get out from under the thumb of these hypocritical, gaslighting control freaks and build your own life without their interference and in a place where you feel safe and valued – and where you don’t feel you’re complicit in ethical violations! The religion talk is just them attempting to exert control. Your dad doesn’t need you at this position, regardless of what they say, and you don’t need you at this position either. Go with a clean conscience. Your parents will rage and threaten and insult and guilt-trip, and you can let them have their tantrum at a safe distance. I’d even advocate cutting contact for a while.

      As Amistad Maupin said: there’s your biological family and there’s your logical family. Go find your logical family. Start fresh.

    4. Ann*

      Get out, go, move away! Leave yesterday. As the others said, you will be healthier and happier and you will get a fresh start.

    5. animaniactoo*

      How do YOU feel about living with your parents for longer?
      How do YOU feel about relying on boyfriend while you get back on your feet?
      How do YOU feel about “living in sin” with him?

      Have you and bf hammered out an agreement about what getting back on your feet looks like and how much effort you will be putting in around the house and jobhunting? If not, I would start here. Because this is the place where efforts to separate yourself from your parents are likely to go wrong if misunderstandings create issues in the place you’re counting on for a soft landing right now.

      Finally – do you trust your father to keep to the “compromise” agreement without giving you further grief about it?

    6. Temperance*

      LW, what do YOU want? I see a lot about what your parents believe, and what they demand of you, but nothing about what you want.

      Totally not work related, but my parents are evangelical Christians and are hardcore opposed to cohabitation or anything less than side-hugging, basically. I … am not that.They whined, stewed, and threatened me, and in the end, living with my boyfriend was a much happier place than living with a bunch of tyrants who wield their Christianity like a hammer. You do realize that your dad isn’t going to pay you normally, right? He wants that control.

    7. CityMouse*

      This is all your choice. Of course there are risks with moving in with your boyfriend with no job lined up, but there is a danger of you not getting away from a toxic situation otherwise. I don’t know how.long it will take you to get a job, but I will say your situation sounds awful and some distance from your parents sounds like a good idea. I would.make sure.boyfriend is 110% on board before.moving and play put the what it’s if you have trouble finding a job.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      You know, when I go shopping I want at least half of what I see in the store. It’s hard to decide. But when I am home alone and things are quiet, I can write a good list of what I need. Once I get to the store, I can stick to my list. Knowing what I want, planning carefully, helps me to stick to my list.

      Likewise for yourself. It’s going to be very hard to decide what you want if you have one parent screaming in each ear. Their constant chatter fills up your brain space and there is no room for your own thoughts.

      Take some quiet time and really think this through. Your parents are showing you how they will continue to act in the future. Think about what it is you actually want here. Think about what it will take to get it started.

    9. JustaTech*

      Good on you for putting in your 2 weeks! And good on you for having a plan for a place to stay. That takes real strength and you should give yourself credit for that, and the good sense to leave something that isn’t working.

      Good luck on your job hunt!

    10. neverjaunty*

      Your dad is losing control over you and he is trying to get it back by bearing down harder.

      You do not have to let him.

    11. Relly*

      Get away from your parents ASAP.

      This letter really hits home for me, so I’m just going to say that I moved in with my interfaith boyfriend out of college. My parents weren’t thrilled, but they got over it.

      We’ve been happily married for over a decade. Our house is a safe place full of kitties, love, and trust. Go and find your sanctuary. You deserve a place where your feelings are okay and you don’t have to be afraid.

      I send Jedi hugs if they’re at all welcome and I am tempted to leave you my email address in case you want to talk.

    12. Observer*

      I’d say no to the compromise. But I’d also try to find my own place. Not because of “living in sin” but because you need some time to re-calibrate what’s “normal”. Also, to get to know yourself a bit better. If this relationship is meant to be, it will be stronger for the fact that you will have worked on your mental health.

  94. Zathras*

    I mentioned in a previous open thread that I just accepted a new job. I applied for it after a former coworker who already left my current place reached out about an opening on his team. I mentioned this to my boss when giving notice, and she told me that it’s bad form to recruit away former colleagues and not to do it because it reflects poorly on you.

    That sounds wrong to me, but am I off base? My boss is not really a good authority on professional norms but she does have a lot of experience. But isn’t this how networking works? It’s not like there was a hard sell involved.

    1. animaniactoo*

      It depends. It’s bad form if there’s a malicious element to the recruiting (i.e. wanting to hurt the previous company vs knowing they’ll survive fine), and it’s bad form if you’re at a company that’s in direct competition with the old one.

      Other than that, it’s fine to reach out and see if there’s interest.

    2. Connie-Lynne*

      In my industry (tech) waiting a year before actively recruiting old colleagues is the norm. After that, or if the colleague reaches out to you, it’s totally A-OK.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      It’s bad form to HER.
      Reality is that it happens a lot. And reality is that as a boss she should have a plan in place as to what to do if any of her employees leave for any reason.

      My read on this is that she looked for a way to throw this back on you or your friend, and this is the method she found.
      You got the job, so yea! Keep moving forward.

    4. Zathras*

      Thanks to all who replied! I meant to come back at lunch to engage but was too swamped wrapping up at the old gig.

      A year sounds about right. I’d be hesitant to recommend a company if I’d only been there short time, some of the pros and cons don’t become clear until you’ve settled in a bit. This guy was a little under that, but not much, and he knows how underpaid we are.

      In general my feeling is it’s on the employer to make it hard to tempt people away.

  95. E*

    I’m an intern at a large federal agency, and there’s absolutely no work for me to do here (I sometimes sit at my desk for eight hours and do nothing). I’ve asked around to see if I can help people, but no dice. What should I do/should I talk to my boss? I’m afraid of being annoying by pestering people for things to do, but I’m so bored and my unhappiness is starting to spill over into my non-work life.

    For future government or nonprofit interns: something I wish I’d known is that if your employer is not paying you directly, they have no incentive to give you work/keep you busy, unless you’re working at a small nonprofit that’s trying to replace full-time employees with interns.

    1. Imaginary Number*

      Research things the people around you are working on. If someone is working on teapot tax credits, use google and make yourself as knowledgeable about teapot tax credits as possible and any relevant current events. Ask questions about it when that person isn’t busy.

      Find out what kind of software your coworkers use on a daily basis. Find free online training relevant to that software (e.g. turn yourself into an excel wizard.)

      Are there any events coming up in the office? Find out who’s planning the event. Chances are it’s an annoying side task for them. Offer to take on some of the planning.

      Find out what certifications your coworkers have and which they find most useful. Research the requirements and find one or two you can work towards.

      Ask coworkers for final presentations of completed projects that you could read through.

      1. Emi.*

        Do you have access to any kind of agency training portal? Otherwise, what about signing up for something relevant to what your job is (supposed to be) on Coursera?

    2. Morning Glory*

      I work at a large non-profit. I am not sure how the laws different between nonprofit and federal internships, but I know for our unpaid interns, we need to make sure they have projects to work on that allow them to learn and develop new skills – – and to fill out paperwork to allow the unpaid interns to receive college credit, stating which educational things they have learned.

      I think going to your boss to ask about projects is a good idea, and maybe go into the meeting with a couple of ideas for things you could do that you think would benefit the department you work for.

    3. Temperance*

      You need to talk to your boss, but make sure you aren’t coming across as whiny about being bored but wanting to help and take on more projects.

      I have a paid intern, and TBH, I don’t always have *time* to give him an assignment. It might be the same for you. It’s easy as an intern maybe not to appreciate how busy people actually are. For example, my awesome intern asked me to review something and I had to tell him that I didn’t have time until 2 days from then because of events that we had going on.

    4. E*

      Thanks for the advice, everyone! My boss has previously told me that she can’t give me anything to do because it’s so slow in the office, so I’ve started taking an HTML/CSS CodeAcademy class; I’ll also look into doing one for excel or photoshop.

      1. Junior Dev*

        Ooh, have fun! Kahn Academy and Mozilla Developer’s Network also have good programming and web development classes. Let me know if there’s a particular coding or web development topic you want to learn and I’ll see what resources I know about for it.

    5. CityMouse*

      I had the same experience as an intern. The other interns and I created projects to work on. I was a legal intern so I did a case review and wrote up summaries of recent decisions in the relevant field. But some days I ended up.reading the news all day. I am sorry, I know how agonizingly dull and frustrating it can be.

  96. Ann*

    In a job interview, what is a good answer to questions about times you had a conflict with a coworker? I think I know a good “best case” answer, talk to coworker, things improve or do not, I adjust or talk to supervisor if it is something that is impeding work or hurts the company. But in real life, things have not gone that way. For example, I have a bullying coworker who does the scheduling and I am never going to say anything to him about what most see as his bullying behavior (management told him he is not management material so they know). I no longer have to interact with him on a daily basis and if my schedule is not good I request time off or suck it up.

    Another example, supervisor wanted something organized one way, I wanted another, she was like, ok, if you want, I thought about it and decided, ok, if she wants it that way. I would not even call that a conflict.

    So what is a good example?

    1. anonykins*

      I think the second example could work for what you’re going for. Managers are looking to see how you resolved the “conflict,” and reconsidering and deciding that your supervisor’s method was best is an example of “resolving” the “conflict.”

      1. anonykins*

        To answer your original question, though, I always bring up annoying habits of coworkers that I just had to learn to live with – ex, open office and a coworker who would NOT. SHUT. UP. Good responses: asking them to give me some quiet time to work, putting in headphones, then finally moving to another part of the open office.

  97. Sadie Doyle*

    In the past couple weeks, I have gone into serious “I hate my job this place is toxic I need to get out of here” mode. I am working on my first job application in seven years and I keep waffling on whether or not I should apply at all. I’m not a perfect match or even a great match, but I’m a good match with the possibility for greatness (well, I think so, at least – I just need them to think similarly!). I’m just psyching myself out and need my jerkbrain to shut up for a while :)

    1. Anne*

      It took me a billion years to send out my first application, but after I was done, I sent out like six more in a week! Just have to take that first step. It doesn’t even matter if you want the job or not, just applying for ANYTHING is a huge step.

    3. Emi.*

      If they want to tell you “no,” they can, but don’t make that decision for them! :)

    4. Another person*

      I have been there! I’d say if you match at least half of what they want, just apply. You don’t know until you try. I’ve applied for jobs I was a perfect match for with no response and gotten calls for other jobs I was sure would pass me over.

      The first application is the hardest. It gets easier the more you do them.

    5. animaniactoo*

      Remember that potentially getting the job doesn’t mean you have to take the job – but applying is the only way to figuring out what else is out there and if you want to take a chance on it.

    6. Beancounter Eric*

      A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. (Laozi, Tao Te Ching)

      “Just do it!” – Nike

      Apply, with great haste.

    7. The Queen of Cans & Jars*

      This is something I needed to hear today (even though y’all weren’t actually talking to me). Thanks!

    8. Junior Dev*

      I was most productive at sending out applications when I was on unemployment and had to send out two a week. Can you make a goal of applications to send out per week (maybe tracking them with Habitica or having a friend hold you accountable) and just try to send them in without worrying it you’ll get the job? Set a time limit for working on each part of the application it that helps.

    9. Chaordic One*

      Of course you should apply. If only to get the experience of applying. Hopefully, you’ll get an interview (always good practice even if you don’t get hired) and maybe even a job offer. If you don’t apply you won’t get anything and these are the kind of things that you’ll get better at the more that you do them.

  98. Doubting Thomas*

    Hi folks. I wrote a couple of posts about how my new job has bait and switched me on my duties and benefits: https://www.askamanager.org/2017/06/open-thread-june-30-july-1-2017.html#comment-1541688

    The last thing I wrote was that I’m getting the run around with pay now. The payroll team is asking me why I haven’t submitted a time sheet yet. No one told me about time sheets before, and payroll is unresponsive when I ask them. Not replying to emails, “I’m not the person who handles that” on the phone.

    I did get my first paycheck, but it wasn’t for the right amount. Silence from the people in payroll who did contact me, “I’m not sure who to talk to, sorry. But they’ll probably fix it” from my boss.

    I’m not sure how to escalate this without coming off like a confrontational jackass. Help!

    1. Another person*

      Someone should be able to tell you who approves the time sheets. HR would be a good place to start. It could be someone didn’t get your hours in correctly.

      You’re not being a jackass, you’re trying to get paid for the work you did. If they are trying to make you work for free for some of the hours you worked, it might be worth filing a complaint with your state labor board or whoever takes up these matters in your area.

      1. Doubting Thomas*

        Here’s the thing: I got overpaid.

        HR pressed me to give one week’s notice. I said no, and they moved my start date back a week. But they gave everyone different starting dates: I was told one, payroll was told the original date, and my department was told the week after HR told me. I’m sure this is why I was paid for that extra week.

        HR was also supposed to schedule me for orientation my first week, but they didn’t. They told me they don’t do that. Turns out that’s not true.

        I have cash in the bank, so I’m not depositing the check until this gets sorted out.

        The problem is that I have no clue how to get it sorted out.

        HR says they don’t handle that and can’t point me to who does.

        My boss says he has no clue.

        Payroll says it’s the time reporting division, and they don’t know who to give me to contact.

        Only thing I can think is saying “this seems like it could possibly be a legal issue around pay and time reporting, so who do we get involved to solve this today?”, but bringing up The Law seems overly adverserial considering I just started.

        1. Beezus*

          How does payroll not know who to contact about time reporting? Surely they have questions on timesheets frequently, she says as someone who does payroll. Your situation is a barrel of WTF and I have to wonder what is going on at the company!

        2. Anonymous Poster*

          What a complete and utter mess, so much not-my-jobism that it’s making my head spin. I can’t even come up with a clever quip here, this is beyond bad.

          You have a few options, because this seems like such an odd corner case I’m not surprised no one knows where to point you. They should be able to escalate it though:
          – Ask your boss if their boss knows who can handle this. Let them know that you’re looking for someone in the time reporting division to contact about this to get it corrected.
          – Ask your HR contact who to report the overpayment to. They can (and likely will) come asking for the difference later, and you’re trying to get it solved now.
          – Contact someone in your accounting department, if that’s an option. They’ll do an audit at some point I’d bet, and it’ll get caught then. You aren’t trying to pocket the money, but trying to get it resolved before it messes up their audit.

        3. Another person*

          Still, they are expecting you to accept whatever sum you are given for that pay period without question?? What if next time they short you? Or the next time after that? It does not sound like the kind of workplace that you can get basic questions answered without being adversarial to some extent.

          Is there a secretary or admin assistant around that you could ask, by chance? They tend to know more about these things than management.

    2. animaniactoo*

      Document like mad and call the labor board for help navigating this is my thought process.

      I would suggest getting out job applications now since from reading last week’s post and this week’s it doesn’t sound like this is going to be a good place to stay even if you manage to hardline it and get your stuff worked out.

    3. CatCat*

      Can you afford to quit?

      There are already huge problems with this org., but screwing up payroll is mega serious. I’d also be concerned that they aren’t handling tax withholdings correctly, especially since they’ve been dishonest with other things with the job.

      If you can afford to quit, look into your state’s laws on when your final pay must be given to you. My state has penalties for failure to timely pay final wages and you can file a wage claim with the state’s labor office.

      1. Doubting Thomas*

        The tax withholding is a good point…stuff like that is what I’m concerned about, because I was actually paid for time I didn’t work (see last comment).

        This is a very, very large organization which is not publicly traded, so I think that’s why there’s so much not-my-job-ism. That and diffusion of responsibility.

        At my last 2 jobs payroll went like this:

        Last job (startup): “have your bank account and routing numbers ready, so we can set up direct deposit. If you start in the last few days of the pay period, you’ll receive your first paycheck as a paper check.”

        Job before that (large financial institution): “We pay every other Friday. You can set up direct deposit but if you don’t you get a paper check mailed. Call payroll at 555-5555 if there’s any problem.”

        That this place is so much bigger but so much less organized confuses me.

    4. Anonymous Poster*

      Payroll is the one thing that companies that succeed do not screw up, or if it happens, they very quickly resolve the issue.

      You are not confrontational for expecting it to be sorted out, either. Is there someone in the payroll department you can escalate to, and anyone in HR you can contact about these processes? HR knows that payroll also puts them into a serious legal bind and they’d want to avoid that like the plague, so I’d suggest talking with a contact over there too and asking for what to do next, and explaining the situation.

      1. Doubting Thomas*

        I managed to get HR to start pressuring the payroll people. However payroll didn’t get back to them. Which is — obviously — worrying.

        Given it’s 5:30 on Friday I don’t think I’ll see anything on this. Payroll will “forget” about it because HR sent their email after payroll mentally checked out for the week and it’ll take forever to resolve.

        There’s part of me that wants to march into my boss’ office on Monday morning, lay out every single thing they’ve messed up so far, and tell them I’m quitting if it’s not fixed by the end of the day. But that won’t do anything, because no one here has any initiative.

    5. Beancounter Eric*

      Bail. Now, not later.

      From your earlier post and today’s, it’s not going to get better there.

      They are either poorly run, corrupt or both.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Bring your boss the check and say you can’t cash it?

      Do you have a nice coworker who has been there awhile? If yes, maybe the nice coworker will help you find the phone number. Don’t lose the number once you get it, sigh…..

      1. Doubting Thomas*

        My boss was way too cavalier about it. His response: “they’ll probably figure it out and take the extra money from your next two or three paychecks.”

        When they could also go “he didn’t bring this up, so we can’t trust him and need to let him go,” that’s just ridiculous. I think everyone here is afraid of actually taking responsibility for anything at all.

  99. Imaginary Number*

    This is more a rant, not a question, in regards to senior people dumping things on very junior people when they go on vacation.

    A senior teapot designer I used to work with identified a huge issue with a teapot spout I had previously worked on (I’ve since moved onto another role.) Instead of looping in his manager, he dumped this issue on an intern just as he was leaving on vacation.

    The intern did exactly what she should have done, which is reaching out to the relevant experts. Eventually one of them asked me to step in and help guide her, since I was familiar with this particular teapot.

    What I discovered is that the senior teapot designer had been given bad numbers. Which someone at his level should have caught. Or his manager could have caught. Instead, the intern (who didn’t have the experience to realize the numbers didn’t make sense) got multiple people to spin up a problem that didn’t exist.

    I think senior guy thought we’d screwed up previously and was hoping that would fly under the radar by dumping it on intern. He has a habit of doing this in the past, basically wiping his hands of something and feigning ignorance when it goes wrong.

    2. Observer*

      One of these days this is going to come bad and bite him, hard. As it is, it’s probably not doing any good for his standing with anyone who actually cares about getting stuff done, and done semi-correctly.

  100. Connie-Lynne*

    A friend just got out of an interview for a project manager position and other friends are advising her to send both a thank you email AND a card. I think that’s weird and will make her look desperate.

    Opinions?

    2. SL #2*

      Just an email will suffice. Cards don’t arrive until a few days later, what else could you say in a card that you can’t say in a thank-you email, and frankly, I’d find it so weird to receive a thank you card after an email that I’d consider it a very tiny flag against the candidate (that they don’t seem to have a handle on certain communications norms).

      Your friend should save the thank-you cards for personal use, not professional.

      1. Connie-Lynne*

        This was my feeling! If a candidate thanked me twice, I’d wonder what was going on that made them feel they needed to.

    3. Anon Anon*

      I wouldn’t. An email is more than adequate provided it’s sent within the first 24 hours.

    4. Emi.*

      I did that and I still got a job (bc I didn’t know better), but in retrospect it was probably really weird (and I don’t even know when they got it, because no one ever seems to look in their mailboxes around here).

    5. Jujubes*

      I also know someone who was given this same advice and I had the same reaction! I just wanted to share that because this is only the second time I’ve heard this advice be given to someone, and yes I find it to be weird. In my opinion once you have thanked a person, you don’t need to thank them again.

      I know with the field I’m in, people are kind of obsessed with the handwritten thank you note. However, I’ve always opted for email and I haven’t had any problems. I would advise her to consider the timeline that they indicated (are they making a decision quickly? Then I’d probably email. Will it be a couple of weeks before a decision is made? Then handwritten would probably be fine). There may also be an industry specific preference that she could gravitate toward, but in my experience that hasn’t mattered.

    6. NJ Anon*

      Email only. A card will be too slow and look like they are not up to present norms.

    7. Rincat*

      A card is weird. Emails are perfectly fine! It’s a business meeting, not a wedding shower.

  101. Anon Anon*

    Honestly, every time I hire for a position I understand why some people can’t find jobs.

    This week I encountered the following:

    1. A candidate who was asked one question (tell me about yourself), and then spent the next 45 minutes going through their life story in agonizing detail. The interview was an hour long. We wrapped it up after the 45 minutes, otherwise I would have been there until next Tuesday.

    2. A candidate who’s bitterness towards their past employers made everyone else in the room deeply uncomfortable.

    3. A candidate who came in and had done zero research about the organization and acted as if they were doing me a favor by interviewing.

    4. A candidate who was clearly not interviewing for the job that we were hiring for, instead it was clear that the candidate was hoping that the organization would be so wowed by their experience and skills that we would create a new C-Suite role for them.

    5. A candidate who sent their application materials not only to HR, but also all our C-Suite employee’s and their respective assistants.

    6. A candidate who indicated that the salary range we posted was very low (it is on the lower end of market rate, but not out of the range), but that they assumed that for the right candidate that we would increase the range by 50-100%.

    So fun times. Apparently, our vetting of materials (of which I’m partially responsible as the hiring manager) isn’t that great.

    1. The Queen of Cans & Jars*

      Oh Em Gee, do I feel your pain. The bulk of people I hire are unskilled production workers. If I can’t hire you, you are officially unhireable, and there are a shockingly high number of people in that category.

      1. Anon Anon*

        I’m hiring for a mid-career management position. I’m in a niche industry which narrows down the number of qualified applicants, but I’ve been a little in shock at how bad it’s been.

    2. nep*

      Wow — some of those are reeeeeallly bad.
      (So should that give some of us — who would not pull any of that craziness — a little bit of hope?)

      1. Anon Anon*

        Absolutely. A well qualified candidate who answers the questions posed and seems interested in the position seems like a novelty these days. So I think that you should have a lot of hope.

    3. Ramona Flowers*

      How on earth did that one answer go to 45 minutes without being stopped?!

      1. Anon Anon*

        I tried to interrupt and redirect the conversation, but I got ignored. And to be honest after I did that twice I gave up. It was like watching a train crash, horrific and stunning all at the same time.

        The worst part was that this wasn’t a new graduate or someone who had been out of the work force for many years, someone who perhaps wasn’t used to interviewing or even workplace norms. It was from someone with a couple decades of experience who should have known better.

    4. Lindsay J*

      I was amazed when I recently did interviews at how many people seemed to have not looked at the job description at all. Quite a few people seemed to think that it was a customer service position, despite the job description not mentioning anything of the sort.

      If they had spun their customer service experience into saying that they would be great in dealing with other departments within the company, that would have been one thing. But nope, they seemed convinced they would be dealing with outside customers.

      These same people also could not answer very much about our company when asked what they knew about it. I guarantee that everyone in the states has heard of us, and we have a website that explains a huge amount about who we are and what makes us unique in our industry as well as a Wikipedia page. Yet we got answers that were basically just stating the industry that we are in. Or that were incredibly off-base.

      I’m not really sure how those candidate even got through the phone screen to be honest. And since those were the people that did I really wonder about the people who didn’t.

  102. Anonfornow*

    So a couple weeks ago, I applied for a position on a Sunday, was contacted by for a phone interview on Monday, had the phone interview on Wednesday, and came in for the interview on Friday. I was told I needed to do some skills testing and came back in the following Thursday, and I did very well on it. The primary HR contact I’d be working with wasn’t in the office that day, but someone I believe above her was in. While I was headed out the door, she told me they had a cafeteria in the building, and mentioned that right now it was under construction.. but “if you are hired.. WHEN you are hired, I’m rooting for you!” it would be much larger. Then she told me I’d be hearing by that Monday (a day before a holiday) about the job.

    I think I *knew* that was unlikely, but it got me all up in my head about it, and I was so excited, and I thought I did so well on the interview.. but of course I heard nothing by Monday, and none of my references told me they were contacted. Now it’s Friday, and the situation hasn’t changed. I’m trying to do what I know AAM would say, which is.. assume I won’t get it, and move on. I applied for something else already, and I’m trying to tell myself I probably won’t get it. But I’m so ready to be out of my current place, so it’s hard to do that! I’m also trying to tell myself that I shouldn’t read anything to what the woman in HR told me, etc. But.. it’s so.. hard.

    I’m mostly venting, but I guess if I had an actual question, it would be, if I don’t hear from them by say end of next week (making it two weeks after testing) should I contact and see what the timeline might be? Or is that too soon? It seems like forever due to the fact that the other HR person told me I’d know already, but of course, two weeks isn’t that long at all.

    1. Anonymous Poster*

      It’s reasonable to ask for a timeline, especially if you forgot. Just a simple thing like, “Good afternoon, I realize I forgot to ask about your timeline for hiring. Do you have an idea of what that would be?”

      You aren’t pressuring for a decision, you’re just trying to understand what their impression of their timeline is. But also keep in mind they break these timelines all the time because hiring just takes more time than most people realize. It’s not them trying to mislead or anything, it’s just a bad estimation.

    2. Anon Anon*

      I think the end of next week sounds reasonable. Did they give you a time frame of when they would be making a decision?

      I know when we hire we sometimes interview people that we think might be good, but keep interviewing for a few more weeks (as applications comes in), in case we get a stronger applicant.

      1. Anonfornow*

        The primary HR person didn’t give me a timeline. One of the hiring managers replied to my thank you note and she told me they “hoped” to finish the interview process that week (last week). The HR person I mentioned above who I saw when I came in for testing told me I’d know something by the next day or Monday. She is above the primary HR person I’ve been talking to on the totem pole, but who knows if she’s involved that much with this particular position. I completely knew, especially with the holiday, that contacting me within the next couple of business days seemed unrealistic! But, it certainly skewed my expectation of the timeline.. even though I of course “know” better.

        I think if I don’t hear anything, I’ll send an email next Friday to my primary HR contact — I like the suggestion of asking that I “forgot to ask about the timeline.” Thank you!

  103. ella*

    Anyone have ideas for an awkward person who’s bumping (not literally, but socially) heads with another awkward coworker? We’re just non-compatible awkward, I think, and I’m trying to find ways/reasons to be friendly, but he’s trying my patience. I am not talkative, and he for some reason is super invested in making me chat with him, and will ask me questions that I think he thinks are ways to open conversation that are just…not. For example, he’ll ask me what I’m reading on reddit (?!), or comment on my clothes, or other suchlike things that I find either nosy or uninteresting. He only ever asks me questions, he doesn’t volunteer to share anything from his own life (which would be a better way to start conversation). I deflect basically all his advances, but I waffle between “I should try to be friendly” and “I don’t owe this dude anything as long as long as we work together cordially.”

    1. Emi.*

      Have you tried asking him questions, especially about the kinds of things he asks you about? You mind find something to talk about (maybe he reads about octopuses on Reddit and you read about them on NatGeo?), or at least it would feel less like an interrogation.

    2. Beth*

      I find it interesting that you think that the best way to start a conversation would be if he volunteered from his own life.. a lot of the “advice” on making conversation is actually to ask questions, which is what he is doing. I mean, if he just told you his life story, and didn’t ask you anything, that would be pretty awkward, too, right? Or are you asking questions yourself, and he’s avoiding them?

      As a fellow awkward person, I completely understand how this is awkward, but .. I can also tell you that the more you tell yourself it’s awkward, the more of a self-fulfilling prophecy it is. I go back and forth on whether or not I feel like talking at work, and when I don’t feel like talking, I’ll just bounce back the questions to the original person; “Nah, I didn’t do anything special this weekend, how about you?”

      If you find the conversation starters boring and/or nosey, you could try taking the reigns and bringing up things that you consider less boring or less nosey. If he’s just firing questions at you and you are barely replying and not asking HIM anything, that could make him feel more awkward — self fulfilling prophesy! — and make his questions even weirder.

      This isn’t to say that you owe him any “information,” because you don’t, but at the very least you can attempt to steer the conversation to anything you might be willing to talk about, and ask him some questions as well. Even if they are work related, etc.

    3. AnonAcademic*

      Offer one or two superficial details in response to his queries, and then indicate you need to get back to work. This is how I appear friendly to all my chatty/extroverted coworkers, even the ones I don’t particularly gel with. They ask how my weekend was, I tell them I enjoyed the weather and sleeping in; they like my shoes, I tell them I got them on sale at DSW; stuff like that. Viewing your coworkers questions as “advances” rather than small talk makes it seem like he has an ulterior motive, but lots of people like to “bond” via small talk and I find engaging a little bit before apologetically getting back to work comes across far less cold. “Cordial” is fine but I do find having a rapport that is not 100% about work tasks (a shared favorite TV show, etc.) really does help my work relationships.

  104. anonnynon*

    I’m getting frustrated with stuff that is being implemented from our merger. Yes, we needed more/better support/processes/standardization but so much that is happening just seems like corporate BS and I’m not here for it. It bums me out to think about looking for a new job.

    1. Too expensive and experienced for new world*

      I hear you. Have suffered under this for about a year. Many seasoned people have left, which makes mgmt happy because — cheap offshore replacements. But coworkers share their frustrations with each other and that helps.

  105. Insert Witty Name Here*

    I interviewed for a job and after 2 weeks, received an e-mail yesterday that said, “If we were to hire you, when could you start?”

    This was from the supervisor. Is this a good sign? I don’t want to get excited because it isn’t a formal offer.

    2. soupmonger*

      I ask this question of every candidate I interview for every job I have on offer. Because I need to know when the candidate would be available to start work with us. It’s not an indication of likely employment, it’s a fact-finding question for me. So – don’t read anything into it.

  106. Soially awkward programmer with value set to anon*

    What good books/websites/etc are there for someone who’s socially awkward to succeed in the workplace?

    I’m looking for work in designing teapot software, if that helps.

    Thanks!

    1. Junior Dev*

      This one, if you haven’t read it! Check out the archives.

      Captain Awkward has some good advice on a lot of topics but some of her questions are specifically about work, I’ll post a link below.

      I am a programmer and here are some tips I can give you:

      * Being kind is just as important, if not more important, than being smart. If you think someone is being stupid, try your best to think of the most generous possible interpretation of their behavior before responding. Ask open ended questions until you understand where they’re coming from.

      * Non-technical employees are not less smart than technical employees. They have a different skill set. I can build websites but I know nothing about accounting or HR. Do not treat anyone (either the person you are currently interacting with or a third party) as stupid or less intelligent than you.

      * Don’t underestimate small talk. To the extent you have time and energy to do so, aim on the side of getting to know people a little better in these exchanges. A good template for “how are you” is to respond with one sentence of interesting but not overly intimate information, then ask a question in return:

      Co-worker: how was your weekend?
      You: good! I went hiking at Teapot Falls, have you ever been there?

      Co-worker: how’s it going?
      You: good, enjoying this nice weather. How about you?

      * by default, keep things positive and easy to understand. A lot of nerdy types (of which I am one) have a tendency to default to complaints, sarcasm, or complicated inside jokes as their default mode of interaction. Those things aren’t inherently bad, but they’re pretty easy to overdo in a way that alienates people.

      Some smart and socially conscious tech people, Twitter accounts, podcasts etc: Anil Dash, Sarah Mei, Sarah Jeong, Scott Hanselman, the Stack Overflow podcast. I don’t think any of these are directly about social skills, but they have smart things to say about the experience of being a person in community with others as a tech person.

  107. Emi.*

    A while ago, a man from a different department (same building) asked me out, and I turned him down (“I’m married.” / “Oh, you are? Oh.”). He said something vague about “well maybe we can still get coffee as friends some time” and I said something vague like “yeah, sure.” In my entire experience of being asked out, pretty much no one has actually meant that–I thought it was just a polite thing to say. Well, I ran into him in the hall again later and said something friendly so it wouldn’t be awkward, and it seems he actually does want to get lunch as a non-date. He gave me his cell number, and another time called my office and offered to buy me takeout (I declined).

    Is this weird? It feels weird to me–not in a creepy way, but still odd. I said I’d like to grab lunch sometime, but then I got really busy, so I think I’ve been giving him, like mixed friendship signals. I guess I don’t have a specific question besides “is this weird?” but what are all of y’all’s thoughts on the situation?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Weird. Listen to your spidey-sense. The offer to buy you takeout takes it over the edge for me (unless you said, “Man, I am SO busy I can’t even eat!” and he said, “I’m going to the deli, want me to get you a sandwich?”. The only way I’d go out with this guy is if it was as part of a group.

    2. Here we go again*

      How well did you know him before he asked you out? If he had just seen you randomly, then it is super weird because they only reason why he spoke with you is because he found you attractive. If you had conversations ahead of time and had something in common, then I don’t think it’s weird. He could’ve thought “Oh, Emi. and I have a lot in common and she’s pretty, so I should ask her out… Oh, she’s taken? We still have a lot in common, I would like to get to know her better in general.”

      1. Emi.*

        We didn’t know each other at all! I guess we said “good morning” in the hall, but we didn’t even know each other’s names.

        3. Here we go again*

          Oh wow, yeah, that’s definitely weird then. Sorry…

          Maybe do a general, “I really try to keep my personal and professional life separate…. blah blah,” and see if that gets him to leave you alone, since it doesn’t seem like you’ve said no to the offer of friendship.

  108. Teapot Librarian*

    Thanks everyone for your feedback last week on schedule adjustments for my employee having trouble with paratransit. We finally had a chance to chat yesterday and it turns out that paratransit pretty consistently gets him to work at or around 6:30 for his 7am start time, so we agreed that he should just switch his work schedule to 6:30-3 instead of 7-3:30. His pick-up and ride were infinitely more consistent when he was leaving at 3, and the occasional time when he’ll get here closer to 6:45 or 7 is totally fine in contrast to having a 3:30 scheduled pick-up and not being picked up until 6. (Which is precisely what happened last Thursday.)

  109. Ramona Flowers*

    I feel guilty and stressed. Today a peer from another team confided that they are experiencing extreme levels of work-related stress (think bordering on suicidal feelings). They do a very difficult and distressing job and there are some serious problems with their line manager. I am not a manager, this felt way too much for me to handle myself and I ended up looping in Jane, a manager in my own team (my actual line manager is on holiday) who gave me wording to suggest approaching Jane for support without letting on that I already told her about the issues. Jane is going to offer to support her in going to HR.

    Jane has also been really supportive to me, has checked in with me etc – and I feel horrible because I’ve had more support with the experience of supporting my colleague than my colleague is getting though hopefully that will now change. I don’t really know what I’m asking here. I think I just needed to offload.

    1. Emi.*

      Ooh, that’s tough, but it sounds like you’re doing the right thing! Supporting other people can be really draining, so please don’t feel guilty for getting support yourself. It also illustrates that Jane was a good person to loop in!

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        Thank you, that’s really kind. And yep Jane was fabulous and could not have handled it better.

    2. Observer*

      Also, ultimately, the fact that you got the “extra” support actually benefited your coworker, because it means she’s likely to finally get the help she needs.

  110. Teapot Librarian*

    I just had a meeting with my grandboss. I have not had a fully positive impression of her from our previous interactions, which have never been one-on-one, but I have a newfound respect for her after that meeting. It was an hour of implication that I need to shape up (I do) yet I left the meeting feeling positive and energized rather than deflated and self-loathing. I have no idea how she did it. I want to learn her magic.

  111. LAC*

    Any tips on how to approach the “I’m leaving” conversation with my boss when it’s a really awkward time for it and I’m transferring within the company? Although it’s an internal transfer, he doesn’t have any control over it – in some ways it’s more like being offered a new job.

    It’s a bad time because we’re in the middle of hiring and I oversee the entire onboarding process. We have three starting on Monday and then a further three starting at a to-be-determined date and it’s going to be extremely problematic if I leave before their first week because we have this over-complicated onboarding program that nobody but me is trained on or even allowed to be trained on. This would be no big deal if someone else would take over my position, but I know for a fact that nobody wants it.

    So I know that my timing is going to come up, and while I have a lot of valid career reasons for doing this, I’m doing it NOW because I can’t take this dysfunctional nightmare anymore. Otherwise I would be waiting till next year, because I’m gonna be breaking my lease to get away right now. The stuff that has pushed me to the breaking point involves treatment of the team by other members of management (but not my boss himself). Should I mention this or just tell the polite lie that I’m moving up my future plans because an opportunity came up that I couldn’t refuse? I’d rather do that, but based on what I know of my boss I think he might actually find the real explanation more palatable. He won’t DO anything about it (god knows I’ve tried that already) but I think he’d take it less personally if I just tell him I’m fleeing the rest of management. They all hate him and don’t make his life much fun either (but he does not do anything, so). I think he’ll be pretty angry with me for leaving at a time like this unless he knows it’s leave or quit. But I don’t know that I want to have that kind of conversation with him.

    I should note that the team will know exactly what’s up regardless of what I say, but my boss is so checked-out that I can tell him whatever I want.

    Thoughts?

    1. animaniactoo*

      Tell boss that it’s a combo of an opportunity that was really hard to pass up, particularly in light of how long it would take for it to come up again and how much you can’t take another year of mgmt.

    2. Zathras*

      I would emphasize that it was a great opportunity that you couldn’t pass up, but if you think it would help you can also say something like “I think you also know I’ve been unhappy with the upper management here for a while, and that was definitely a factor in the decision.” Assuming that’s true that he knew, but it sounds like it is.

      Then express regret that the timing sucks, and do whatever you can in your notice period to make it easier for them to carry on without you, even if it feels like a drop in the bucket.

      Also, the reality of situations like yours is that sometimes even when you leave with plenty of notice before the next Big Event (onboarding, in your case) it doesn’t help – because they just let it ride until it’s two weeks away, then freak out and try to frantically hire or train someone to do it. So try not to feel too bad about it – this is your company’s bed that they made by not cross training and having management that drives people away. Let them lie in it.

    3. Observer*

      The fact that no one is *allowed* to be trained on the process is a sign of dysfunction, all by itself. What one earth?

      Don’t be scathing or scorched earth, but is there a chance that by telling him the truth, politely, you’d wake him up a bit – and that it would help?

  112. Liz*

    ack! I posted in a forum and used my email address so i could catch any responses.
    1. It put my picture in so now a coworker will know it was me and I wanted to be anonymous
    2. And I am getting email notices for all comments, not just replays to my posts.

    Can I delete my post, remove my email, or remove my picture?

    1. Emi.*

      1. That sounds like Gravatar–I think (I’m not sure) that if you log into Gravatar and change your picture there, it will change everywhere you’ve used it, so you could try changing your Gravatar to something anonymous, at least as an interim.
      2. There should be an “unsubscribe” option in the emails you get. If not, can you create an inbox rule to just dump them all?

      Whether you can delete your post depends on the forum. Have you asked the mods/admins? (I think Alison once removed someone’s Gravatar from a comment here.)

    2. Matilda Jefferies*

      Depends on the site, I would imagine. Do they have a help feature, or a way to alert the moderators?

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Are you talking about this site or another? It’s not clear from your post.

      If this site, it pulls your photo from your Gravatar if you include your email address. If that was a mistake, email me with info about what comment it was (your user name or a direct link to the comment) and I can fix it for you.

      To unsubscribe from comment notifications, click the “unsubscribe” link at the bottom of the emails.

  113. Anon on Friday*

    The culture in Dysfunctional work place bites. The owners are not on the same page. They don’t communicate with each other. They disagree with each other’s decisions.

    My boss emailed me earlier saying he wants to meet with me at 3:30. (he is not here right now.) As usual, no hint to what its about which probably means I am in trouble. Again/still. With constantly shifting expectations and priorities it is difficult to stay on target.

    We are running lean – we lost two managers this week alone. And Two last week. So I suspect he is going to move me to a site. (with this kind of attrition, obviously it is not in my head that the culture is bad.)

    Think of me at 3:30

  114. Janelle*

    I could use some sites for work clothes shopping that you women like. I have lonnng legs and a large bust. Work clothes tend to make me look a bit naughty librarian, which is fun at home but less so at work. Ha.

    Button ups don’t fit without insane amounts of tailoring plus I just hate them. Also I can’t pay to alter ever single item of clothing I ever buy. I prefer dresses with a blazer or cardigan but always get some comment about my legs. My dresses are always appropriate length but since I simply have more legs it looks like I’m showing more skin.
    I live in CA and don’t take well to heat so also why I like dresses. When I leave the office I can pull off the sweater and not melt.

    A lot have recommended Mod Cloth but I am not into the kind of childish, retro patterns. Nords is my go to shopping but I can’t constantly find work appropriate there. It’s more of when I find something I get it.

    If anyone has some good places I’d love to know. Always looking for more options! Shift dresses are great but usually also require a good amount of tailoring on me, not that I won’t do it for a good dress. They seem to always be made to make me look pregnant. I am short waisted also.

    1. Emi.*

      Lands’ End has a good selection of tall sizes and a lot of sales. I’m also long-legged and large-busted, and their dresses and blouses fit me (although I don’t generally have a problem with button-ups so I’m probably not as well-endowed as you).

      Also, what about eShakti? You can customize the length as well as usually the neckline and sleeves. I think they have some kind of rewards set-up, as well.

      2. LCL*

        Lands End now has tall plus sizes! I found this out yesterday and was going to wait until the weekend thread to post, but, tall! plus! sizes. Their clothing is more casual, I don’t know if they have what you need, but it’s worth a look.
        I’ve been getting catalogs from a company called Eloqui that look really good, lots of professional type clothes, but I haven’t ordered from them yet.
        Simply Be has some cool stuff, more youthful but some things might work for you.

      3. TheTallestOneEver*

        Another vote for eShakti. It’s an extra $10 to have items custom made to your measurements and they have a range of styles.

    2. Kyrielle*

      I haven’t used it, but I have friends who swear by eShakti. You can customize things like sleeve and skirt length, as well as giving it your exact measurements in the first place so you don’t have to guess how long you need to ask for in order to have it fall below your knees. They charge $9.95 per item that is made to a custom size or style – so a little more expensive than a stock size and default styling, but not much. (Per item, not per change to an item.)

      1. Volunteer Coordinator in NOVA*

        The only caution I have about eShakti is to leave plenty of time for your item to arrive as it’s not always the quickest but they do a good job on their customized items in my opinion!

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      I’ve had good luck at Talbots (mostly for basics, some of their stuff skews older than I am) and Ann Taylor. The Macy’s the is close to my work and the financial district always seems to have nice suits and things available. The Macy’s out in the suburbs does not, so your mileage may vary.

      If you are in the south, I have consistently found lovely work dresses at Belk, which is a regional department store.

      Also, as weird as it may sound, I’ve also had good luck with QVC, specifically their cardigans from Issac Mizrahi. They have one of the most flexible return policies of any company I have dealt with.

    4. Maya Elena*

      I am very short-waisted with large bust, so I feel some of your pan, You need to shop in Petite sections, where the cuts are more short-waisted, not just smaller all-around.

      For DRESSES specifically, I have had the best success with Macy’s Ralph Lauren dresses (petite section). Not so much with suits, but you cant win ’em all. Calvin Klein stuff isn’t short waisted enough for me, but their dresses ALMOST fit me and arr really nice styles. So invest a day at a LARGE Macy’s (which will still even have its petite section – they’ve been closing them!) trying on different brands and see if one fits you. (I also had good luck with Charter Club jeans and random business pants…. but that’s not what you asked about.)

      I have a bunch of filmy stretchy Macy’s INC petite blouses that I wear often,

      For general wear, Ann Taylor and loft have long specialized in Petites, though lately their cuts don’t fit me as well – but your body may be different from mine.

      Also, try Lands End: sensible clothes and a pretty generous return policy, a wide range of sizes, and constant sales.

      Finally, White House Black Market is soon coming out with a petite section, and they just have nice things….

    5. Janelle*

      I will have to look at eShakti. I should mention I am 5’4”, not tall just all legs. I feel like I just have to accept that I will never like office clothes :( Bums me out because I am clothes obsessed but everything I am looking at is just so not my style.

    6. anon for this*

      Lularoe is great for maternity. Stretchy clothes that you can wear afterward and don’t scream maternity.

    7. TJuerg*

      Loft! It’s been my saving grace since The Limited closed (rest in peace!). Lost also has tall sizes!

      Also, Target has been tinkering with their business-wear and they have a fairly wide range of sizes. Lastly, have you tried Kohls? It can be **very** hit or miss but I have found some decent separates!

      1. Janelle*

        I had no idea Limited closed although I haven’t shopped there in about 15 years now that I am realizing how dang old I am! Who knew! I just ordered these great Theory slacks online since they were on sale. Also will do some Nords anniversary sale shopping on the 13th. Cannot wait for that fun. 50% off new fall clothes. WOOHOO!

        I may have been bad and also just ordered these new Gucci loafers which I sooo don’t need shoes but really did need loafers. Bad Janelle.

        The St. Johns is just out of my price range unless for a really good classic item but that style is really my favorite.

        I actually think this would be a million times easier if it wasn’t always so hot here. Business clothes and 100 degree weather tend to not go together. My office also happens to stay insanely hot compared to the rest of the building. When my boss walks in he always complains…so at least no one questions when I work in the chilled conference room.

    8. neverjaunty*

      I am a huge fan of MM Lafleur but MAN they are not cheap. Great quality, great design, all sizes, but save your pennies.

  115. Batshua*

    I have been denied leave for Rosh Hashana due to undue hardship. Two other coworkers have also requested the same days off and were granted leave. Neither of them are Jewish. My boss implied she would cover my shift if need be when my coworkers made noises about rearranging their plans, but then my leave request was denied. I’m not sure where to go from here, but this *is* a hill I would die on. Rosh Hashana is a super major holiday and work is forbidden, and I seriously can’t handwave it to be “okay” for me to work on those days. It’s not like I just want the time off to celebrate and eat cake; I’m gonna be in prayer basically 12-16 of those 48 hours. I’m not sure if HR is trying to be “fair”, or if they legitimately don’t care, or if they don’t understand that this isn’t a vacation for me. I don’t want to “cause drama” or “make trouble”, but this is a HUGE problem for me, and I have made inquiries with my union.

    (I had requested the leave MUCH earlier, but was told to revert it by my previous boss due to problems with the time and leave system, so there’s no evidence that I’d requested the days off months in advance. I don’t care if they pay me for the days or not. I just can’t be working those two days and I don’t want to get fired for not coming in.)

    I guess the good news is it’s only July?

    1. CityMouse*

      Gosh I am so sorry. I would definitely follow up with the union. If you can’t get anywhere I would see if one of the coworkers would switch with you. The high holy days are not many and it is not much of an imposition at all to ask for them off, it is 2-4 days a year max. They are 100% being unreasonable and possibly running afoul of legal religuous protections.

    2. Emi.*

      Ugh, I’m sorry. If it’s HR who denied your leave request, can you get your boss to back you up? It sounds like you haven’t explicitly asked for this time off as a Religious Accommodation. If not, you should definitely do that, and remind your boss that she said she could cover your shift.

      1. Batshua*

        My boss SENT it to HR. HR is backing HER up.

        I’m not sure if she meant she was going to cover my shift or not, but that is how I interpreted it.

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      I think you have to approach this as a religious accommodation. And until proved otherwise, I would assume they just don’t know. I had a similar situation at another job, so I went politely to my work and explained that I could not work on Yom Kippur or Rosh Hashana.

      Once they realize this was a religious issue, they immediately apologized and gave me the leave I needed. Most folks who aren’t Jewish don’t follow our holiday schedule and they can easily not realize that it is a big deal. I often say that it would be like asking a Christian to work on Christmas.

      1. Nana*

        Nope…it’s not like asking a Christian to work on Christmas: for most, it’s just a happy, fun-filled day. Asking a Jew to work on Rosh Hashana (2 days) or Yom Kippur (1) day would be like asking a Christian to work on Easter. More people give more thought to the holiness of Good Friday / Easter.
        [says the Jew who worked at an Episcopal school — and was always accommodated most graciously.]

        1. Anxa*

          Is it really comparable? I cannot imagine getting off of work just because it was Easter. Caveat: I am not actually religious, but don’t recall many religious christians getting off. I would think more Christian holidays are built into the calendar, so it’s s non issue for people in those types of jobs. Maybe it’s because Christians were the majority where I worked so if everyone took off there would be undo hardship.

    4. Menacia*

      Are you a new employee? If so, did you tell the company up front you would be needing certain religious holidays off? If you are not a new employee, what have you done in past years?

      Were you given reason why your request was denied?

      1. Batshua*

        I had them off last year, and I told them up front, but the boss I have now is not the boss I had when I was hired. I’ve actually been through 3 bosses in like 2 years.

        HR just said “undue hardship” due to two people already having the time off.

        I’m pretty sure I *can* get this resolved, I just don’t want to be That Coworker Who Is Bitchy And Causing Drama, even though this is SRS BIZ.

        1. Emi.*

          As long as you’re not actually a jerk about it, I don’t think anyone is going to think of you that way (unless your office is already dramatic and dysfunctional). Just explain politely that you can’t work on those days, so how are they going to plan around that.

          1. AnotherLibrarian*

            Yeah, no one should think you’re causing drama. As I said above, this is a big deal. Most people just don’t know and, honestly, the times I have explained it to folks, they have always been understanding.

            Here’s what I might say, “I saw that I was not able to get leave on (DATES). You may not be aware, but those are are (BLANK) which is a major religious holiday for me. I can not work on those days, because Judaism forbids work on (BLANK). Is there any way that my leave request can be reconsidered?”

            I’d start with your manager and them move up to HR as needed. I’ve used language like this myself before.

            1. Batshua*

              HR definitely either doesn’t know or doesn’t care. I think my manager just thinks I’m being difficult, so I’m starting with the union. I don’t want to butt heads with my manager directly if it can be avoided.

              1. misspiggy*

                Depending on how awful your manager is, it might also be worth explaining what you will be doing on those days, as you have in your post. Until I married a Jew I had no idea that the high holy days were anything more than most Christian holidays – visiting family, eating food and maybe one or two hours of religious observance for the very committed.

          2. Batshua*

            My boss was basically like “You’re expected to show up to work. If you don’t, you’ll be AWOL.”

        2. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Have you explicitly said to HR, “I am requesting this as a religious accommodation because my religion forbids me working on that day?” If you haven’t said that yet, you need to say it now. They’re not mishandling this until they’ve heard that explicitly.

          1. Batshua*

            I said that to HR this morning, and the person I spoke with said he’d done a *lot* of research and determined that yes, they can call this an undue burden and unless my boss finds coverage, I have to come in or I will be AWOL. They strongly recommended my boss do her best to find coverage. She says she cannot, which may very well be true, but it puts me in a rather a large barrel of pickles.

            (Not just one pickle, you understand. And full-sour, too!)

          2. Batshua*

            So far, I’ve talked to an HR specialist, I emailed the head of HR, I talked to my local union rep and emailed my regional union rep, and talked to our EEO person.

          3. Batshua*

            I spoke with EEO and they said that everyone is claiming stuff I said (putting in leave well in advance and having to revert them, people offering to change shifts) didn’t happen.

            She suggests I go up the chain of command to my boss’s boss. I’m not sure exactly what to say to him at this point.

    5. Sled dog mama*

      Do you by chance have e-mails discussing this with the boss who asked you to revert it in the old system? or an email confirming that it had been submitted? Those could go a long way towards helping you with people who are saying that it’s first come first serve on days off.

      I hope you’ve got someone reasonable in a position of power who sorts this out for you.

      1. Batshua*

        No, it was a verbal discussion, so I don’t have that, and foolishly I deleted the confirmation because I didn’t know we were going to have a change in power lead to this sort of problem. The leave system is janky which is a major factor in how this whole thing ended up happening, but sadly I am thinking there is no way for me to prove any of it, unless my ex-boss is willing to vouch for me, which she may not, since it seems she often doesn’t remember conversations we’ve had. I wish I’d known THAT earlier.

    6. Teapot Librarian*

      Oooooooohhh, this makes me ANGRY. I take ALL the holidays off (first and last days of Sukkot and Passover, both days of Shavuot, and RH and YK, and leave early on winter Fridays) and my boss has made snide comments, but so far I haven’t had any leave requests denied. I imagine that since you are in a union, this will get resolved in a snap, but I still wish you a lot of luck and truly hope this is just a misunderstanding. Shabbat shalom!

      1. Batshua*

        Someday, I will have enough leave to be able to do all whole holidays and such, but as a baby employee, I make waves very slowly. I usually do R”H, Y”K, all of Pesach, and the morning of Purim and/or Simchas Torah.

  116. NSH*

    I have an interview next week (thanks to Alison and the contributors here for all the information and advice that got me this far). I live in a desert climate and the interview is for an administrative assistant position at a public university. Must I wear a suit or would a dress (or separates) with a thin buttonless cardigan (think sleek unstructured lines like J. Jill or Eileen Fisher) be okay? Any advice about dressing formally in very hot weather for a size 16, fiftyish woman? The thought of putting on a suit is making me very nervous.

    1. KR*

      I think a dress and cardigan or Blazer combo would be appropriate if you make sure your hair/clothes/shoes are on point and reasonably formal. I would recommend wearing as little as possible out of the house and in your car and then putting it all on right before you go inside. It’s going to be 110 today where I am. Any reasonable interviewer knows it’s hot out.

    2. PB*

      I’ve worked in public universities for the last ten years. Everywhere I’ve worked, the outfit you described would be completely appropriate for an interview, especially in extremely hot weather. If I’d change anything, I might swap in a more structured top, or skip the cardigan and wear a blouse instead.

      I suspect that this might vary at different institutions, so YMMV, but this sounds fine to me.

    3. Rincat*

      Another higher ed career person here – that outfit sounds just fine. I agree with KR that you should put on as little as possible until you get there. In fact when I’ve seen people interviewing for staff positions in suits, it just looks weird to me. However to make it a bit more formal, I’d wear some heeled shoes – don’t have to be stilettos or anything, but just don’t wear ballet flats if you can help it. To me, ballet flats look like house slippers.

    4. Ghost Town*

      I work at a public university, as professional staff, previously in the College and now in the Business school (as of early May). You don’t have to wear a suit and the outfit you described is very nice and appropriate. Perhaps take extra care with your styling and grooming day of to polish it up. Previous commentors are right, though, wear as little as possible before you get there to minimize sweating. I’d also say to build an extra 5-10 minute cool down/rest room buffer into your commute time so you can walk more slowly and spend some time mitigating the inevitable sweat before entering the offices.

      Good luck!

  117. Denise biscuit*

    What’s the general protocol where you all work when someone decides to leave the company, and gives their two weeks notice? Not like an exit interview, I mean in process and culturally…in terms of wrapping up projects, meetings with their manager, telling people they will be leaving, transferring long term projects, etc. It seems like where im currently at we do nothing (and as a reault the person leaving does little to nothing) and that doesnt seem right… but i have no idea what to suggest as an alternative besides “this isnt working”.

    1. Rincat*

      I work at a large state university so this process is all over the place, but when I left my last job, there was…nothing. I took it upon myself to create a spreadsheet of all my responsibilities, processes, projects, database connections, etc, before I left and cross trained some coworkers on my duties. My former manager would have done absolutely nothing if I hadn’t done that.

      So in terms of a process, I think having a document like that would be very useful. Just something to say, hey here is what I was doing, here’s how to do it, and here’s who to contact if you have issues. Start with that document and then perhaps you can extend the process from there.

    2. Ghost Town*

      I’m a public university and moved from one school to another recently. A previous person who held my OldPosition had compiled a fairly thorough (then) binder for the position, which was updated by her successors. I updated it every couple of years or so. After I gave my notice, I went into full overhaul mode and updated the entire binder, which basically meant I rewrote it since the position changed between the early 2000s and 2017. I tried to incorporate as much information as possible on processes and who to contact and general timelines, used the navigation pane, clearly indicated sections, and provided a table of contents. As my notice period coincided with the end of the semester (and I didn’t have to start working on next year’s stuff for them), I had more time to do these things than I would have at other times.

      As a part of my notice giving conversation with my Director, I identified who I thought was the natural person to cover certain project-areas until my replacement could be hired. That conversation continued for a bit and then I met with each person to go over the project-areas, generally. Most to all the information is in the binder and I’m still on campus. (They’ve been pretty good about not asking too many questions.)

      I also drew up a shorter, more immediate document that covered projects that were not complete and things that would have to be taken care of over the summer/early fall semester. I told my immediate co-workers and our graduate assistants that I’d be leaving in person, and drafted an email to send out to the student and faculty lists about my impending departure (which I also sent b/c I was in charge of the listservs).

      slightly off topic: I gave my notice in late April and now, in early July, the announcement for my old position *still* hasn’t been posted b/c of back and forth about adding duty language to the announcement, essentially codifying an extra bit that I did as an official part of the position.

  118. Anonforthis*

    I wanted to vent and get some advice.

    My spouse’s job basically involves signing off on whether something is safe. That is a massive oversimplification but you get the idea. He has been fighting with his boss recently because someone who say, supplies the spouts for their teapots has some serious problems and spouse won’t brush the concerns under the rug. He wants to pull the safety certification from that spout company. His boss thinks it is no big deal even though the organization they sell the finished teapots to also has concerns. Yesterday he told spouse that he either certifies the spouts or he is going to force spouse and spouse’s closest coworker, who also refuses to sign off on the safety into a different office in another state so he can keep an eye on them (spouse said he meant tell at them in person until they agree). He also ordered spouse not to tell coworker about this, and coworker is in the process of closing on a house (boss knows this). Fortunately both have other job offers and both are quitting imminently, but seriously, who does that? Either they violate their ethics and put people at risk or they get forced into a move he knows they can’t do (my job doesn’t work in other location, neither does coworkers spouse’s). It is an effective firing. We are lucky my salary can cover any gap (which there is not likely to be, he just needs a background check finished and it is official).

    What would you guys advise? He asked me if I thought he should tell HR about the conversation or his friends at the teapot buyer.

    1. Emi.*

      That’s terrible! Is there any kind of safety reporting system or ethics hotline he can report this too, either in his organization or in some kind of industry body? If not, I’d definitely report it to HR and then the buyer, if HR doesn’t smack the boss down. If he has a union, I’d talk to them to. (If the buyer is a government agency, they almost certainly have hotlines he could report to.)

    2. Trout 'Waver*

      Telling the teapot buyer could come back to bite him. Is there a compliance or safety group elsewhere at the company?

      1. Anonforthis*

        He is part of compliance group, unfortunately. He will actually be working in the same industry when he moves jobs and the spout certification issue will still be a part of his new job.

        1. Trout 'Waver*

          I’d wait until he was in his new role and then talk to whomever to specify in the safety features. Based on what you’re saying here, clients will want the safer product. If it’s written into the specifications, either old company complies or loses business to companies that comply. Be mindful not to break any NDAs or anything.

    3. Rincat*

      I’d tell HR. His boss is threatening retaliation for refusing to do something he knows is unsafe and wrong. They should definitely know!

      I’m glad your spouse and his coworker are getting new jobs! That really sucks.

    4. Chriama*

      If this is safety stuff, isn’t there some sort of whistleblower protection? Also, if his company is big enough, there should be an anonymous ethics hotline. In order of priority I would tell
      1) any external ethics/whistleblower hotline or organization
      2) a company ethics hotline
      3) HR
      4) I would not tell the teapot buyer friends anything except “I hear your concerns, and I think they’re valid ones. I can’t say anything else but I am leaving company X over disagreement with my supervisor about these concerns.” And I would only say that in person, not in writing, and only if I trust these friends (not just to not say anything about me but also to not accidentally bring my name up in context at all.

      1. Lindsay J*

        This. If this is a function of his role, I would imagine that there is a procedure in place to deal with those that are pressuring him.

        In my company, once someone puts the brakes on something for safety reasons, the only person who can override that would be the director of quality control (and that would not be the DQC requiring the individual to approve something they felt uncomfortable with, that would be the DQC putting their own name on the line as approving the part/procedure/replacement, etc.)

        If I were being pressured by my boss or someone else to approve something that was not safe, my first order of recourse would be to escalate past them up to the DQC and let him know that I was being pressured and that my job was being threatened due to my judgement that the part was unsafe.

        If I felt that the DQC wouldn’t protect me from retribution, I would go to our ethics hotline (which is a combo of internal/external. It is managed by an external company, but all the info gets funneled back into the company.) We’re all given cards with this number on it and it’s posted prominently around.

        If that didn’t rectify the unsafe situation, or if my job was under threat because the unsafe situation was dealt with, I would escalate to the relevant government agencies that deal with my industry.

    5. Observer*

      If there is a governing agency for the work the company does, notify them. Since your spouse is heading to a new job, I’d wait till he’s started in the new job. And he should absolutely bring it up with HR in the exit interview, if they do those. If not, again, let HR know after he leaves.

      I don’t think your spouse has any legal, professional or ethical reason to keep this a secret from co-worker. On the other hand, if the co-worker is just waiting for confirmation to quit, I don’t see any point, unless there is any chance that co-worker might be convinced to rethink the position. In that case, this is actionable information.

  119. TTE*

    I’m thinking of getting a new tattoo (on my back/shoulder area). The area would be a bit ill-advised to wear a bra immediately after, so I’m thinking of getting it a Friday after work and then go through the weekend. However, I don’t know how much it will have healed by Monday to know if I could make it work without irritating/damaging it.

    What are the thoughts on using sick leave for that Monday?

    For context, we can take sick leave for doctors appointments. Also no bra is no go because I am large chested. I could also ask if I could work from home that day (whenever it is), but I don’t know if it would be approved and I would rather not use one of my 2 PTO days or vacation.

    1. KR*

      Can you wear a halter style bra or strapless? Depending on how loose your straps can go you might be able to wrap some soft cloth around the strap and take care not to jostle your bra/chest.

    2. LK*

      You’ll need 7-10 days for it to peel completely and it shouldn’t have something as load-bearing as a bra strap rubbing against it for that time as you could “rub out” paint and ruin the design.

      I would say using sick leave is fine for that if it was only Monday. But you need a 1-2 week solution, not a 3-day solution. Can you wear strapless bras (UGH I KNOW, but just for a week?) or a loose-fitting sports bra or bralette type thing?

      1. LK*

        ohhhh maybe a halter-style bra? I know those can cause neck pain but I’m at a loss. I do know that you run a very high risk of damaging it if you have a bra strap rubbing against it before it peels….

    3. Rincat*

      Other tattooed people please weigh in on this – but could something like Saniderm be used for the entire week? If you aren’t familiar with it, it’s a microperforated film bandage. I had it applied to my upper arm tattoo and left it on for about 6 days and things came out beautifully. I think the upper back is a perfect spot for this type of bandage, and if you could leave that one for a week, maybe reapply after 7 days or so, and then wear some sort of soft strap bra, then that might help.

      1. periwinkle*

        Yes! My last tattoo (#4) is on my upper arm and I was concerned about it rubbing against fabric. My tattoo artist put on a clear Saniderm-type bandage and told me to leave it on until it started peeling off on its own in a few days. It protects the healing area well while also allowing you to go on with normal activities (like wearing clothes and showering!). There are several bandages like Saniderm – 3M makes Tegaderm, which I think is less expensive. Amazon carries both.

        I had the bandage on for four days. Not only did it protect the tattoo, it healed faster than my previous ones did.

        If you get the tattoo on Friday, ask the artist to apply the bandage. By the time it’s ready to come off, you should be okay to wear a bra again.

        1. TTE*

          This is a great idea! I will have to look into this, but this gives me more hope that I think I can finally put some of my anxiety to ease and move forward with the process.

          1. Rincat*

            Saniderm was a god-send for my last tattoo. I did old school bandages for my first and hated it (especially since it was on my back). The Saniderm was basically just a piece of tape. I didn’t have to worry about changing it or cleaning it out or anything, and like Periwinkle said, my tattoo healed much faster and looked better. It also shortened the peeling stage drastically. And it was great to be able to shower normally!

            My only issue with it was that it would come detached on the edges where the skin moved a lot, like the lower part of arm towards the inside. Then it rubbed my arm a bit and made a bit of a scab. But typically your upper back skin isn’t too mobile. The shoulder blades area might be, but that was it. The redness/scabbiness went away in a couple weeks with some regular application of Aquaphor.

  120. Blue_eyes*

    Tips for learning to delegate?

    I’m the only person in my position at work. I have a few direct reports and there are other people who are one level below me, but not my direct reports, who I can also assign work to. I’m having trouble delegating for a few reasons. One is that some of the projects are so small or require so much background info that by the time I’ve explained what to do, it would be easier/faster for me to just do it myself (a lot of these are on-offs so I can’t train someone once for a repeated task). The other reason has to do with not trusting people to do things correctly/not wanting to let go of control over things (our staff are generally fairly competent, so this is definitely a ME problem). My boss wants me to delegate more since my workload is pretty heavy right now. We’ve also talked about delegating being necessary to moving up in my career, especially as a manager.

    Any tips? Suggestions? How do other managers out there choose what to delegate to their staff?

    1. Trout 'Waver*

      It will always be easier to do one-offs yourself at first. But dealing with one-offs is a skill that can trained like most other things. I don’t really have any advice. You just gotta do it knowing it’s going to be more work in the short term for long term payoffs.

      Personally, I tend to delegate projects or one-offs that don’t have office politics ramifications. Things that have definite endpoints, deadlines, and specifications are great for delegating because it’s easy to clear and concisely communicate what success looks like. Open-ended non-recurring investigations I take care of myself generally.

      1. AdAgencyChick*

        This is right…but I think there’s an added complication here because the people being delegated to are not Blue_eyes’s direct reports.

        Basically, I think you need a system to ensure that you can give the same types of work to the same people each time. If these people can say no to your requests (which may be the case since you’re not their boss), then you may end up having to assign things piecemeal to whoever has time to pick something up. And then you’ll be stuck with assigning a lot of one-off tasks which it indeed would be faster to do yourself, rather than assigning the same type of task to the same person each time, with the expectation that she will learn how to do the work faster and better with practice.

        Has your boss made it clear to these people that even though you’re not their direct boss, they need to behave as though you are?

        1. Blue_eyes*

          Generally the people who are not my direct reports are fine with doing the tasks I assign them (these tasks usually come directly from Big Boss, and they know that). I can see how assigning the same kinds of tasks to the same person would be helpful, I’ll try to keep that in mind. One complication is that I work M-F but the people I’m assigning work to work 2-3 days per week including weekends, so tasks usually get assigned to whoever is working that day, which isn’t always the same person each time something comes up.

    2. animaniactoo*

      1) Faster in terms of the timeline of the project, or faster in terms of your time?

      Think about that hard – sometimes you can get it done faster, but letting someone else get it done slower while you get something else done faster is optimal for the company as a whole.

      On the background requirements stuff… how much of that info is cumulative? I.e. these pieces apply to this one off now and that one off further down the line but not the others in the middle? And would somebody else who was doing said one-offs gradually absorb enough info to figure out most of them faster on their own in future despite not being exact repeats of each other? Because if so, then yes – it will take more time now, but if you don’t put in that time now, they will never learn and it will never leave your plate.

      1. Blue_eyes*

        Great questions.
        I don’t mind delegating things to people even if they take longer to complete the task than I would. The real issue is that for many of the tasks the explaining really would take longer than me doing the task myself.

        I think you’ve hit the crux of it with the cumulative info. Over time, someone else who was doing one-off tasks for me would pick up some things that would make future tasks quicker. It’s just hard to see right now what those take aways would be, so I can’t necessarily train them in those specific things. A lot of background requirements come from extensive conversations with Big Boss and also just knowing her preferences really well at this point and being able to make judgement calls based on my experience.

        Thanks for pointing out what I sort of knew but needed to hear from someone else – that the time spent now on handing things off will pay off in the long term. It’s hard to see that right now in the middle of a busy period when it feels like a hassle to spend more time handing things off. Maybe the real lesson is that I need to be proactive about delegating when I’m NOT busy, so that it’s easier to hand off tasks quickly when I AM busy.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          You can also train one person, watch how they do with the process and then allow them to train others. It sounds like you are spread too thin to be able to train everyone.

          When you do settle in on training, I always put stops into the training. “When you get to page 2 let me know.” That gave me a chance to see how they did with page 1.
          If the task is lengthy and repetitive you can do spot checks while they work.
          I have also had luck training two people at once and letting them work off each other.

    3. Dzhymm, BfD*

      I, too, had problems delegating until one day I had no choice. I was in a position where I literally needed to be two places at once: I was elbow deep finishing up an urgent order for cozies when the customer rang up: “Remember that teapot that you said you’d have done today?” I had to quickly look at my staff, size up who I think could do what, and say “Okay: YOU – start working on that spout; YOU – get going on that handle, then circle back to me and I’ll tell you how to do the lid”. We got it done, the customer was very happy, and my staff got to brush up on their skills.

  121. oranges & lemons*

    I’m curious to hear from anyone who sells at craft fairs, either regularly or once in a while–it’s something I’ve contemplated doing for a while and I was wondering how people have found it. Is it hard to make a profit from it? Is it fun or tedious? Is it a huge amount of work? Is it hard to break into? I don’t really know much about it, and I’m wondering if I’d like to give it a try.

    1. Persephone Mulberry*

      It is expensive on the front end – you’ve got the costs of your booth/table setup, displays, the time and cost that goes into amassing an inventory, packaging, marketing materials (signs, business cards, etc.), and of course the actual fee to participate in the show (anywhere from $50 – $200+ depending on the size and reputation of the show). Applying to juried shows – meaning a committee reviews all the applicants and decides who gets in and who doesn’t – requires GOOD photographs of your product, possibly a photo of your booth setup, and usually a nonrefundable application fee on top of the booth fee if you are selected. The plus side to doing juried shows is that you are usually not competing with MLM booths for sales.

      Your craft needs to be something that is unique enough that there won’t be 5-50 other booths selling the same thing, but not too niche. You need to offer an item that is in a comfortable price point for your audience – you’re not going to sell $500 quilts at a church bazaar, but you might sell loads of $10 quilted potholders. IME, volume is where it’s at with craft fairs. I display a few pieces of my higher end artwork because it’s eye catching, but what actually SELLS are my $5-10 cards, ornaments, etc.

      How do you define profitable? Some people hope to make 2x their booth fee in a weekend, others 10x. What is the opportunity cost of sitting behind a table for a day or a weekend – what could you be doing with that time instead?

      Are you prepared to smile and say “hello/good morning/how are you today” 500 times in a row, or does the thought of engaging with strangers make you freeze up?

      I love doing them, I think they’re loads of fun, but they are a TON of work. Packing, setting up, engaging with people, tearing down, packing up, unloading at home. I try to do 2-3 a year but that’s my limit. I don’t know how people who do them every month or even every weekend, do it.

    2. LK*

      1) Hard to make a profit? YES – you need to cost everything out – supplies cost, table/space rental cost, setup cost to purchase your initial table/display stuff, transportation cost. If you are able to estimate YOUR cost per item, then guesstimate how much you can sell said item for, and said item will sell for at least double what your cost is for the same item, then you’re on the right track. if you’re only make 10-20% profit per item, you will not make money. Your sale of each item should be at least 50% recouping costs and 50% profit.

      2) Fun/Tedious? Do you actually enjoy crafting? If it’s something you can do passively (while watching Netflix or chatting with friends e.g. knitting) or something you already do for a few hours a week, then it’ll be fine. If you’ve never done it before…. make some samples, put up photos around your facebook or office etc and see if you can get some orders on a small scale. If filling those orders are tedious, it’s not for you. If it’s neutral or enjoyable, you’re good to go.

      3) Huge amount of work? Depends how many orders and how profitable it is (busting your butt for $10/week profit gets old fast). But it’s definitely a part time job (5-15 hours/week is reasonable to guesstimate depending on what you’re actually selling and how hard it is to make – also what the process is e.g. do you have to wait overnight for glue to dry or something, causing a minimum of 2-4 days/week on the craft as opposed to one 6-8 hour stint on a sunday afternoon?

      4) Hard to say if things are hard to break into because this varies by what craft you do and what city you’re in. Is your craft already oversaturated in the market in your area, or is it in demand?

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      This is super dependent on what you are selling. It is hard work and it is hard to make a profit. I’d recommend checking out, “Dear Handmade Life” which is all about the business of craft and “While She Naps” which also focuses on that topic.

      I have sold at craft fairs and I hated it, but other folks seem to like it. I prefer to sell my stuff online.

    4. oranges & lemons*

      Thanks for the advice everyone! For a little context I do like to craft already but what I like to make is amigurumi (crocheted dolls) and there’s only so much of that stuff that I need for myself.I like customer service work and hate packing and shipping stuff, so I thought I might prefer fairs to selling online. But I’m not concerned about making a profit–I would like to at least break even. I wonder if amigurumi is a little niche though as it doesn’t really serve a purpose.

      1. twig*

        Of there are any funky little shops in your town, you might look into selling your stuff there on consignment or something.

    5. BadPlanning*

      Hard to make a profit? Generally, yes, but it depends on your goals/product/process.
      Fun or tedious? Depends on your personality I think. Putting a deadline/perfection/etc on a hobby can suck the fun right out of it.
      Huge amount of work? I think the more work you put in, the better it is. My observation is that you’re always tweaking things. Your products, your process, your show setup, your labeling, your pitch, your theme, etc
      Hard to break into? Yes and no. There are a lot of fairs out there. Some are juried and require applications and have a wait list for “new” people. Some are just, “Send us a check” and show up. This can be a “get what you pay for” sort of gamble though.

      One big tricky thing is to find shows that bring in not just people, but people who are in the mindset to buy handmade items. Some craft shows allow MLM sellers which don’t actually mix well with crafts, despite what anyone things. Some shows say they want only handmade, but don’t actually police it. Some shows don’t do a good job of limiting types of crafts or worse, spacing them out. Like only so many jewelry people and don’t put them next to each other.

    6. This Daydreamer*

      Is there a shop near you where they sell locally-made crafts? That might help you find out how much of a market there is for what you’re making.

      Good luck! I’m thinking of going the Etsy route but I keep putting it off.

  122. Anon Again*

    I’ve complained about this before, but I’m still struggling and frankly just need a reality check. This is absurd, right?

    Last fall, I was offered a new role (a promotion, with a 30% pay increase) in my organization. I accepted and negotiated a lengthy transition (splitting my time between my old role and new role) so I could wrap up the projects I was working on in my existing role. I agreed with my manager that the formal promotion wouldn’t take place until January, when I finished my old projects. In January, my manager (our division VP) announced a reorg of our division that would roll out in February, and told me that my promotion would go through with the rest of the changes in February (even though I was fully shifted into the new work; it was just the raise and title that would be on hold until February).

    Many more shenanigans ensued (a promise of back pay that never materialized, my manager leaving the organization, etc.) and long story short, it’s July, and the promotion never happened. Wellllll, that’s not exactly true. I got an entirely different new title and salary (which didn’t previously exist and went into effect on July 1, with our new fiscal year) at a (much) lower level than the title and salary I had originally agreed to.

    … I don’t even know what to do. I don’t really need advice — I’ve done all the things (many conversations with my manager, and her manager [our CEO], and my new manager, and HR). I’m just angry and frustrated and unfocused and worn out and I’m not sure that I can ever be happy here again, even if suddenly everything were resolved tomorrow.

    Ugh.

    1. CityMouse*

      I am so sorry. I don’t have any advice other than maybe take that new title for a spin and see if you can get any better offers out of it. But you are not wrong to be upset, 100%. They have treated you badly and jerked you around and that is unfair.

      1. Graciosa*

        Agreed.

        It doesn’t feel like you’re going to be able to trust them again. I would cut your losses and move on.

        1. neverjaunty*

          Yes. This smacks so much of “but we gave you SOMETHING so you should be happy!”

    2. Toph*

      That sounds crappy, but I think the lesson learned here is the requested long transition was probably a bad move (unless they pushed that on you too? It sounds like you requested it, not them but I can’t really tell). Reorg is always possible, so if you theoretically get offered a promotion/raise it’s a good idea to get that done officially asap so it’s done. Even if you might still be wrapping up some old-role stuff during the transition, you’d be doing so as your new role and with your new rate. If it was their idea originally to not make anything official right away, that’s red flaggy to me from the start.

    3. Lo Flow*

      Can you ask for a lump sum payment to make up for the delay in your pay change? Say, what the 30% amount you were promised between January and June?

  123. Jessi*

    Hi AAM internet team,

    I would love to tap into your collective wisdom.

    My best friend can’t figure out what to do with his life (work-wise). He studied physics, maths and geology at uni, and is one paper away from finishing, though he dropped out in 2013 due to personal circumstances. He has since worked at a beverage company, doing everything from day to day delivery, through to supervision when the manager was away. He was there three years or so. Last year he moved cities and he currently drives a van, again doing deliveries though he helps out in the factory as and when needed. He has excellent references and is well liked by both peers and supervisors

    He wants to move into something new, but doesn’t really know where to start. I fell into my first job and liked it so much I’ve made a career out of it. Where are some good places to start figuring out what you might like to do? How does one work out what to do with the rest of their life?

    Thanks!
    Jessi

    1. CityMouse*

      That is really, really tough and hard to know without some kind of direction. Maybe informational interviews or volunteering. I have found career aptitude tests massively unhelpful, personally but they might give him ideas. He should try to narrow it down – what does he like to do all day? Even though it isn’t his field he should consider finishing up the credits just to have a degree, often jobs don’t 100% care about major if skills are transferable. It is silly but a bachelors can often me an entry card into different kinds of jobs.

      For a completely random suggestion: teaching science or math? It is a tough gig but with a science background and degree he could be valuable.

      1. LK*

        seconding finishing the degree. The piece of paper can make a big difference on a resume.

        1. Jessi*

          Yes, all of his friends are encouraging him to go back and finish off his final paper! Seems a shame to have such giant student loans and no degree to show for it

    2. LK*

      Many people completely change careers multiple times in their lives, so the first step is to change the question away from “rest of their life” wording and towards “for the next few years” – what is satisfying to them, what provides advancement opportunities, and what lifestyle do they want (workaholic but huge bank accounts? 9-5 with lots of paid vacation or flex time/work-from-home to backpack in asia for 2 months a year? etc) – I would think about what they want their non-work time to look like, and then figure out what income bracket they need to be in to fund that lifestyle (debt payments, rent, travel or recreation costs, etc), and then figure out what fields could give them both the lifestyle/culture they want and also pay them what they want.

      From there, it’s all about figuring out what you think you’d enjoy enough to do 40+ hours a week for a long time (I am a firm believer that the idea of “working where you’re passionate” sets people up for failure more often than not – I spent 3 years working seasonal contracts for various nonprofits after university and kind of regret it as it was me doing what I was told to do – work doing what I LOVE! – so I spent a lot of that time wondering why I wasn’t happy…. turns out living below the poverty line and not being able to go on weekend trips out of town made me miserable, even when I was “doing what I loved” as a career).

      I have a BSc in earth/geo sciences and a 6-month legal admin certificate and I am 100% happier as a legal admin than I ever was working in my field for charities (enviro education park ranger type stuff). So, this is my VERY subjective advice that I wish I received the day I graduated uni.

  124. Mockingjay*

    Ergonomics!

    I meant to post about this on Wednesday, relating to the thread on employee chair size.

    I got relocated abruptly last Friday. Moved from a cubicle onsite at the Big Government Agency (BGA) back to a shared office in the corporate building. (Space allocation – Government staff get preference. Life of a Contractor!)

    I am trying to make the best of it, but I honestly prefer the cubicle. It had more work surface area which could be adjusted in height; I had a great, new computer chair, two fabulous monitors, good lighting, and tons of storage. Most of all, I was front and center with my team members. (It should be noted that my “building” was a trailer!)

    Office is dimly lit, chair is not adjustable at all, desk is small and fixed height; only one monitor is adjustable. I already have neck and wrist strain, and my lower back hurts. I’ve asked for a LED desk lamp and an adjustable computer chair, but I don’t think I will get them. I have no shelves for storage and the whiteboard behind me is falling off the wall.

    Why don’t my managers believe that ergonomics are important? Maybe because both are tall men and the desk fits them fine?

    (In other news, my project is still terrific and I get to do all kinds of interesting work!)

    1. Undine*

      Footstool. If the chair is so deep that seat hits your lower legs when you sit all the way back, some kind of pillows or padding for the back. Bungee-cord it on, if you have to. Reams of paper or several books for the monitor height. None of it’s ideal, but it can help.

  125. OlympiasEpiriot*

    I need to vent. My kid (young teen, but employment laws allow work for this age with certain restrictions) had an introduction to the manager of a location of a facilities management company that seems to be a functioning corporation, not some fly-by-night or casual operation. It manages facilities in an industry that my kid is interested in. Kid would have been happy with either unpaid internship or lowest-rung-on-the-ladder job (like cleaning things). Kid sent email with a resume in May, had an interview with same manager about two weeks later (time lag due to high school, other part time job & schedule of said facility manager). Got told … and so did contact at company who provided introduction … there was a job, would email kid with schedule for starting *this coming monday*. (Delayed start due to school ends last week of June in this town and kid had to go to family memorial service in ano there state immediately after school ended.)

    Kid sent thank you email with scan of working card from state and asked if it would be helpful to mama her if kid came by in advance to fill out paperwork.

    Note, I have stayed out of this except as background advice giver when asked and helping kid brainstorm contacts for getting job.

    Kid didn’t get reply to thank you email. Waited a bit and called manager’s mobile (only way to contact him given nature of job). Left voicemail. No response. Waited another week and a half, called again, got a totally different person who said manager didn’t work there anymore and new manager didn’t know anything about kid. Told kid “send me all the emails”. Kid did, and called to confirm they were received and to offer to answer any questions. Left voicemail. At this point, there’s finals and leaving for other state looming.

    I talked w/ original contact who works at different location of same company. He followed up on kid’s behalf. Lots of back and forth and now it turns out old manager left to take a job closer to his home (this region can have very long commutes) AND general manager (who would have signed off on hiring) of facilities in this area went back to main office in another country and new facility manager and new general manager apparently have no interest in giving a hoot about any verbal promises made to a high school kid AND old manager apparently didn’t do a proper handoff or lied to my kid or did a handoff but the new people just don’t want anything to do with old guy’s hires. Old manager could have done the right thing and let kid know…this facility isn’t employing that many people that it would have been onerous imo. Our neighbor and contact is a super mellow guy and I was seeing him annoyed for the first time ever and given how many times I have seem him not fussed at all about all kinds of major annoyances and even problems, I am assuming he is really angry. He is now asking more friends to see if he can get kid a position somewhere else.

    BUT, in meanwhile, I won’t see kid until Sunday and will have to say then it is a case of starting all over.

    I think I’m going to state baldly that there’s a helluva lotta a$$hole$ out there.

    Over the last couple of years, I’ve also seen close adult friends get jerked around by plenty of companies. Most of them just seem badly organized in the hiring process. Some seem to enjoy wasting everyone’s time, including theirs.

    Ugh.

    1. OlympiasEpiriot*

      Um, correction due to a really bizarre autocorrect insert:
      “Kid sent thank you email with scan of working card from state and asked if it would be helpful to mama her if kid came by in advance to fill out paperwork.”

  126. Liane*

    I posted last week that I was interviewed for a seasonal retail job–& I got it. It’s at one of the stores that a big name retailer recently announced was being closed. As far as I can tell they are sticking to their standard hiring/onboarding process, maybe speeded up, through Brass Ring. I had a good interview last Thursday and checked in Tuesday with Awesome HR Person, who told me she was annoyed because she saw Brass Ring hadn’t emailed me with the drug test address and she wanted/needed me now. Also volunteered I had passed the background check, since she’d given a longer timeline. So now it is all done!
    Did I say how much I liked working with Awesome HR Person? Good interviewer & everything under her direct control has been glitch-free.

  127. Artemis Fowl*

    Can anyone tell me if writing samples should be double-spaced? Should they be sent as a pdf or .doc?

    1. Maya Elena*

      Follow directions if any are given. Otherwise, I’d do the default spacinv in MS word (1.1 space or so), with default margins and font, and as PDF so nothing can be modified by the recipient.

      But double-check it before sending it!

      Definitely make it a PDF if using a weird program that isn’t MS Word.

    2. OlympiasEpiriot*

      Send as pdf, always.

      Follow their style guide, if provided. If not, single spaced, left justified, a clear font w/o weird kerning (calibri and garamond are nice to read), double space between paragraphs.

      2. Lady Jay*

        Calibri & Garamond? Those are my least & most favourite fonts.

        I cannot see what makes Calibri a nice font to read; if you want sans serif, go Arial. But I love the elegance of Garamond and do almost everything in it.

        I had a prof in undergrad who told us all that his favourite font was Courier New – and then half of us turned stuff in in Courier New (including me).

        1. Graciosa*

          I hate Calibri – I now strongly prefer Arial and use it whenever possible, although I default to Times New Roman if a serif is absolutely required.

    3. Undine*

      In my universe, I assume font was dictated by someone else, and it’s not something I pay attention to. Unless it’s Comic Sans.

      PDF & make sure to embed your fonts.

  128. NylaW*

    I have finally started looking for a different job. I thought it would feel less stressful knowing I don’t have to leave my current job for any strong reason, I’m just finding the work not as engaging or interesting after 10 years of doing it and after 15+ at the same company (in 3 different jobs). But I find myself getting anxious about submitting applications and writing cover letters. I’m also feeling like I’m not qualified for some of the senior positions at other places even though I’m definitely senior where I am now simply because they are larger entities that use software and systems I haven’t. Basically, I’m second guessing myself on everything and job searching sucks no matter what situation you’re in.

    1. Zathras*

      It does suck! But try to reframe it to yourself – because you’re searching from a comfortable place, it’s less about finding jobs that you can maybe do, and more about finding jobs you *want* to do. Don’t worry whether they will hire you if you don’t know Software X – think about whether you would be interested in the job if it said “Experience with Software X preferred, will train the right person” or whatever. Some places will be looking for a Software X Guru because the only person who knows how all their stuff works left, but those places just aren’t a good fit – no harm no foul. But plenty of jobs don’t need you to have seen the exact software before as long as you have a solid understanding of the tasks the software is accomplishing.

      It’s also not unusual for a senior position at a small shop to be equivalent to a slightly more junior position at a larger shop. So I wouldn’t rule out applying to jobs with more junior titles, if you can point to concrete ways that it’s still a move sideways or up – e.g. look at the number of direct reports, the size of the budget, the amount of product, or whatever metric makes sense for your work. This was common when I worked in retail – people would go from manager of a small store to department manager of a large store but the number of people and the amount of product they were responsible for increased.

  129. pat benetardis*

    Another department in my company has a grad school summer intern (paid), but not enough work to keep her busy. I am the grateful recipient of the intern’s spare time and she has been a huge help to me. Looking ahead to the end of her internship, i would like to get the intern a gift to express my appreciation. Any suggestions for things that might be appropriate?

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      I’m sure she’d appreciate a reference letter or willingness to serve as a reference, if appropriate. Maybe a linked in recommendation. Some will say no to money gifts but I think a gift card to amazon or visa wouldn’t be horrible.

    2. Mouse*

      I’m a paid intern who has done the extra-help thing. The guy offered to buy me a coffee. I demurred, because for some reason it made me a little uncomfortable- I didn’t do him a personal favor; I was doing the job that I was being paid to do. He persisted, sending me daily afternoon IMs asking if I wanted that coffee. Finally I just said something along the lines of “I’m trying to stay more hydrated throughout the day, so I’m avoiding coffee and sticking to water instead. How about this- would you be willing to give me a reference as I apply to jobs?” He said yes… but then also said that if I ever changed my mind about the coffee, he’d be happy to buy it. Sigh.

      That kind of turned into a long story, but to summarize- references or glowing feedback with the boss CC’d are always better than monetary things, at least for me.

    3. SL #2*

      When I was an intern, gift cards were always useful (Starbucks or Amazon or Target were always put to use), but if you have the time/inclination, perhaps taking her out to lunch for some 1:1 time outside of the office would also be an excellent choice. I know when I interned, the full-time staff who took the time to mentor me and give me advice about the working world were the ones that I looked up to and the people I try to emulate even now.

    4. Morning Glory*

      You could find out if the intern’s main supervisor is planning on doing an end of internship-thank you gift and offer to contribute.

      Also seconding the recommendations that you offer to be a reference down the line – those can be incredibly valuable. If you’re in the field she’s hoping to break into, offering to sit down with her and talk about her goals/give some advice could also be helpful.

  130. Rebecca*

    I think flip flops in any office, even one as casual as mine, should be banned unless the person wearing them can demonstrate they can walk properly and not FLAP FLAP FLAP FLAP down the hall in an annoying fashion. Just put on regular sandals already!

    1. AnotherAlison*

      I agree with you. That goes for ALL noisy shoes.

      Right now, there is a guy in my row who shuffles his feet. He’s 60-ish and these are Rockport-like shoes, but the noise is maddening. He also gets up to go to the printer more than anyone I’ve ever worked with. I’m always silently thinking to myself am I the only one who is going crazy from hearing him walk back and forth all day?

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      YES! A couple of women in my office wear “dressy” flip flops at work. I’m sorry, I don’t think they’re professional or appropriate, especially when I hear FLAP FLAP FLAP every time they get up to go to the bathroom!

    3. Here we go again*

      I hate feet in general, so I would like to see a ban on flip flops, with the exception of the beach, period. :-)

      That being said… I don’t know how flip flops are that different than high heels… They do both make a distinct noise.

      1. Rebecca*

        Well, our floors are all carpeted, so high heels make no sound, nor do other shoes. But those flip flops, seriously, all day long FLAP FLAP FLAP FLAP. It’s almost as if she purposely flaps them to hear the sound.

        1. Janelle*

          I am sorry but unless you are at the beach, around home running simple/casual errands, etc. are just not ok…and I live by the beach in CA! I think it is so gross. I have “fancy” flip flops but I cannot even comprehend wearing them to work. I used to work with a bunch of women who did and I just could not deal.

  131. Die Forelle*

    I’m at total BEC with my co-worker. She has had a persistent cough all week. It’s not big loud gross coughs, but she literally coughs every two minutes or less ALL DAY. We share an office, it’s a very slow time of year for us, and I’ve already completed every task outside of the room that I can think of. The lack of stuff to do, period, is exacerbating my annoyance, since there’s nothing to distract me. I am seriously considering leaving at lunchtime today because it’s just so annoying and there’s so little work to do, but I also worked an abbreviated week already this week due to the holiday and a vet appointment for my kitty. I wish I could ask HER to leave, actually! (That’s definitely not reasonable, right? I’m not her manager or anything.) No advice needed, I guess, just needed to vent to someone.

    1. Crrreeeaaakkkkk*

      I’m at BEC stage with several things this week. Ladies’ room door that lets out a loud, LONG crrreeaakkk every time it opens. And since it’s on the main floor and we have about 80 employees on this floor (mostly female), that’s a long of creaking. All. Day. Long. Facilities has been asked multiple times to do something, but to no avail. Someone who works down the hall has a really annoying laugh and it drives us all up a wall. We’re all constantly saying to each other, “DO NOT make him laugh under ANY circumstances!” And it’s like the Arctic Circle in my office, and my team’s area, in terms of temperature. They’re wrapped in fleece blankets and jackets with their heaters on, and I’m in a winter shirt and sweater. No can seem to get the HVAC system balanced.

    2. Rebecca*

      I hear you. I share an office with 2 other people. Both of them had coughs a few weeks back that lasted a week and a half. The smoker’s cough was the worst, wet, heavy, and gross. It was all day, every day, and even with earbuds it was driving me up a wall. I cope by realizing that I’m not sick during the summer, and it has to be miserable to have a cough like that when the weather is so nice, and I’m not the one trying to sleep through the night with it. Neither one of them had fevers or any other symptoms, and I didn’t catch it, so it may have been allergies (?). We only get 5 sick days per year, and it was June when they had this, so I can understand not wanting to use a bunch of sick days when they’re not really sick, but just annoying.

      I wish you strength! It’s only a few more hours :) You can do it!

      1. Die Forelle*

        Thanks for the encouraging words and reminding me to aim for the sympathetic perspective, not the BEC one! I am easily annoyed sometimes (kind of a crank, not my best attribute) and definitely need to be reminded to relax and let things go.

        1. Rebecca*

          Me too :) I’ve been actively working on looking on the bright side since I tend to be easily annoyed by things too. It’s always too hot in my office, and the other two are freezing constantly, so I bought a stronger fan and wear really lightweight clothes. I have noise canceling ear buds, and listen to podcasts when they chatter on or other people come in to visit. When they complain, which is a lot, I sympathize, offer to help (they always turn me down), so now I just say “oh, that must be so hard for you, I’m sorry” and go back to my work.

    3. animaniactoo*

      As the child of a persistant cougher and a current persistent cougher (will be cleared up within a week), if it helps any, we know. And we wish we could fix it (sooner). We really really do.

      1. Die Forelle*

        Thanks for reminding me about that! I should focus more on being sympathetic about how much it sucks to have a persistent cough.

        1. animaniactoo*

          It’s alright – one of my hesitations about going to my parents’ house for a few days while my husband did stuff around our place which would help clear up my cough (addressing some environmental stuff that was going on), was that I didn’t want to bring my annoying sick/cough over to their place for them to deal with. Then I had to remind myself that’s what family is for sometimes.

          But if you think you’ve got it bad – my poor father had to deal with both me and my mom doing the persistent cough thing for 3 nights and all of Tuesday. He claimed he couldn’t sit in the middle of us, because that was just getting it in stereo. So, see? It could be worse! (I’m not helping, am I?)

    4. Bea W*

      I have a co-worker who was coughing constantly. She wasn’t sick, but wasn’t sure what it was either. Her doctor hadn’t been very helpful. I noticed it was seasonal and was followed my own allergy symptoms pretty reliably. So one day I brought her some of the OTC allergy medication they sell in the cafeteria. I get awful post nasal drip from seasonae allergies that makes me cough, and it worked great for me. Problem solved! She was very grateful. :)

  132. ScaredtoLeaveNYC*

    I was asked to relocate from NYC to Chicago for 4 months to oversee opening a new delivery area for our on-demand ecomm startup. My title is currently Operations Manager. I have not been offered a raise, a title change, or any assistance with finding and paying for an apartment in Chicago. My question is: when asked to relocate, what should an employee ask their company to provide in turn? Off the top of my head, I list: apartment rent, flights to and from (plus one or two extra flights for personal weekend trips back to NYC?), transportation in Chicago…what else is typically provided with relocation? There is no precedent at my company since I’m the first person to do something like this. Thanks so much!

    1. AdAgencyChick*

      I think it’s reasonable to ask for:

      * Corporate housing (make them pay for a FURNISHED apartment). If they want you to stay in a hotel, insist on one with a kitchen, or else they should pay for meals too
      * Flight to and from; not sure whether you’ll get reimbursed for personal trips, but I think it’s reasonable to ask
      * Reimbursement for the cost of shipping any belongings to Chicago that you need but won’t fit in your luggage

      I think transportation falls in a “maybe” category. Since you presumably pay for mass transit in NYC, I wouldn’t expect to have it reimbursed in Chicago, unless they ask you to live somewhere that causes your monthly transit costs to go up; in that case, I think it’s reasonable to ask for the difference.

      1. AdAgencyChick*

        BTW, if they’re not willing to give you these things, I think you can push back and ask for a (sizable) bonus. It is a massive inconvenience to ask someone to uproot for four months; you can push back and say that you’re not willing to *lose money* for the privilege of doing that.

        1. ScaredtoLeaveNYC*

          Thanks a lot for the advice!! I have been feeling ‘massively inconvenienced’ and it helps to hear that : D

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      This was presented to me as a possibility many years ago, and I sent my boss a list of “demands”:
      – Furnished short-term rental, paid for entirely by company
      – Rental car (they wanted me to move to LA from NYC for three months)
      – Personal travel back for two weekends plus travel back for Jewish High Holidays

      I think those things are pretty reasonable, and of course your travel to and from Chicago should be covered. Basically, anything that would incur major extra costs for you. As in, I wouldn’t ask for your meals to be covered, but if you’re paying rent on an NYC apartment that you can’t use for four months, then you definitely shouldn’t be paying extra for housing in Chicago.

      1. ScaredtoLeaveNYC*

        Thank you! I’m going to follow suit and present my demands this afternoon.

  133. Anon Intern*

    Our HR person just made a comment that she had to pass on a resume, saying “what a shame, they have a really strong background,” because the applicant used “learnt.” She thought it wasn’t a word. I let her know that “learnt” is acceptable, but geez… this makes me so anxious about job searching! It’s hard to stay optimistic when a resume can get thrown out for something that tiny- not to mention for something that isn’t even a real mistake!

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      Your resume can be thrown out for any reason. It can be that the person hiring is having a bad day. It can be that you went to University of X and they don’t like University of X. It could be that you used “utilize” and they secretly hate that word.

      The trick is to let this go. You have no control over why someone skips over your resume. What you have control over is what you write and how well you write it. Once the application is out the door, the smartest thing you can do is just pretend you won’t get the job and you will never know why.

    2. Not Karen*

      Ugh, some people can be so petty… Once a proofreader aggressively criticized one of my creative writing samples because I used “awe” instead of “aww.” Like… hello… it’s not a big deal…

    3. Not So NewReader*

      It rained in my life for almost a week because of the word “sic”.

      When I was younger it used to embarrass me not to know a word. I would secretly look it up so I would know. I never realized to what degree that was the exact correct move as opposed to say “correcting” the word and resubmitting a many page project to the prof because of ONE word. Sigh.

        1. This Daydreamer*

          Learnt is proper British English but I have no argument in favor of coz. Unless, maybe it was supposed to be short for cost per ounce? No? Didn’t think so.

          1. Valeriane*

            In Shakespeare’s plays, it’s short for cousin. I don’t think I’ve ever seen it anywhere else, though I’m guessing that’s what Janelle’s complaint refers to.

    5. Oz English*

      “Learnt” is the correct spelling for British English (and more countries – Australian here!). It’s definitely not equivalent to slang (someone mentioned ‘coz’ below).
      If I saw ‘learned’ in a resume, I’d notice, and mentally mark it as incorrect, but nothing so egregious to throw the candidate out!

  134. periwinkle*

    There are no dream jobs. But there are ones that certainly come close, and I’m trying to shift over to that role now. My manager is hugely supportive even though it creates a vacancy that will take some Musical Chairs shuffling to fill. Her manager is hugely supportive. The current person in that role is anxious to have me take over, as is her manager’s manager. Only her manager is in the way – not out of malice, but it’s typical of how he operates (or fails to operate). I don’t really need (or want, TBH) much guidance, and know what projects will be immediately on my plate, but it’s a concern to know that I’ll be going into a situation with almost no guidance or feedback from the manager.

    So what happens when your semi-dream job comes with a not-so-dreamy manager?

    Our function is going to be re-org’ed yet again soon, and I know this particular team was added to this manager’s oversight as a temporary measure that wasn’t supposed to still be in place (thanks to the previous re-org). This person is not likely to be the manager in a couple months, but it’s a possibility. Arrrrgh.

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      Honestly, I’m not convinced it’s that much of a dream if it comes with a sucky manager.

  135. Revolution*

    Is it weird to not wear shoes in the office? We’re a non-client facing office and dress code is casual. Sometimes I take off my shoes at my desk and might go to the supply cabinet a few feet away in my socks. Other people in the office do this too.

    One of my coworkers has started doing this in her bare feet, on carpet. I think that’s a lot more unprofessional, but does that make me a hypocrite? Is no shoes in general not professional? Is bare feet worse?

    1. AnotherAlison*

      Your bare foot coworker is the worst, but I think y’all need to put your shoes on when you leave your desk/personal space, and when people come into your desk area. Walking around without shoes is unprofessional.

      1. Revolution*

        Thanks! We are very casual and a tiny office (less than 5 of us), and I haven’t done it in any other office I’ve been in, but I’ll stop doing it outside my desk.

    2. The Queen of Cans & Jars*

      I have to agree that it’s too casual for a casual office, even if you have socks on. At the desk is no problem (as long as it’s not bare feet up on top of the desk like the poster talked about last week), but slide your shoes back on before you get up.

      1. Revolution*

        Haha, I definitely keep my feet underneath the desk. I certainly keep my shoes on if I go outside my desk for any amount of time (like the break room) but I find myself sometimes running to grab something and straight back to my desk without my shoes. I’ll try and stop.

    3. Ramona Flowers*

      Are you talking about me? I went to the stationery cupboard bare foot today, sorry…

  136. Shirley*

    I’m interested to hear how others indicate language proficiency on their resumes. A former coworker recently sent me a job posting, for which proficiency in a specific language would be a plus (but is definitely not required). I have studied that language for a few years and have some opportunities to use it in my current job (there has been less need for me to use it recently), and so I’d like to indicate that on my resume…but I don’t want to either overstate or understate my proficiency and end up looking ridiculous.

    Suggested terms to indicate proficiency levels? Guidelines or rules of thumb? I’m not actively looking for a new job right now – I’m employed and my current job (of 3 years) is fine – but the posting that was shared could be a good opportunity and I think I’ll probably be looking to move up or move on in about a year anyway, so this would be good information to mull over.

    1. H.C.*

      Generally, I use “[language] proficiency” followed by conversational, read and/or write – depending on what you are able to do (for read/write, a good reference is a newspaper in that language, and whether you can comprehend/write at that level.)

    2. Ghost Town*

      In this case, I would include it in a “Skills” or equivalent section and probably mention it in my cover letter.

      As for how to indicate proficiency levels. I am assuming you are job searching in the US. Are you familiar with the American Councils of Teachers of Foreign Language (ACTFL) or Interagency Language Roundtable (ILR) proficiency guidelines and ratings? If so, great! If you have an official or educational rating on an official scale, use that. Perhaps had a brief explanation of what the rating means.

      Generally, I find that people who have a decent to high level of proficiency are more likely to under or accurately estimate their level on an application. People without a grasp on what proficient or fluent mean are more likely to self-identify with these terms.

      I’m hesitant to out and out say use limited working proficiency or novice or intermediate w/o an actual rating, but you want to use a descriptor that actually describes what you are able to do in the language. In your cover letter, this will be easier to accomplish by talking about how you used the language in the course of your job.

      1. Lily Rowan*

        That’s a great point about people overestimating their fluency. I’ve never had anyone who was a native English speaker actually be fluent in the other language they were claiming, and they were generally not even proficient enough to be useful for our purposes.

  137. ThatGirl*

    I am eagerly-anxiously awaiting a call or email about an offer… And I know the office has summer hours so now I’m worried the HR rep might be gone for the day already. I CAN wait until Monday, of course, but I don’t want to, I wanted to be able to celebrate this weekend… gah. :)

    1. ThatGirl*

      In the meantime I actually just got an offer from a *different* company that I’m a little less excited about, but would still be a good job… managed to politely ask for an official offer letter and a couple days to consider to buy myself a little time. :)

  138. female but I'd been lucky on this one up till now*

    Help!
    I just started a new job as a mid level scientist with a healthy side dish of technical writing. So far most of the work my supervisor has given me has been secretarial, and I have not been able to find more than a couple hours of work in my field in the two weeks I’ve been here. It’s a billable hours environment – if I am not seen as a scientist I will not succeed in this role. I’ve spent a lot of time trying to track down projects, and I met with my supervisor earlier this week to gently encourage him to let me do what I was hired for. He seemed responsive during the meeting, but there has been no change. There is plenty that needs doing but he does not seem to be willing to hand it off to me, and it is not an environment where I can jump on to a project without being invited.

    I am not sure I can afford to just be really bad at using the copy machine, but I don’t know what to do.

    1. Morning Glory*

      I see this as two separate problems. 1. That you are being given secretarial work and 2. that you are not being given scientist work.

      For problem #1, who was doing this work before you joined – are there admins on the team, or was it shared by other staff at your level? This is the kind of thing that it’s worth bringing up in the moment when he asks you to make a copy of something, and referencing your conversation with him, to remind him that this was not what your role is supposed to be.

      For problem #2, this one is more difficult because there is no ‘in the moment’ when it comes to an absence of assignments. How specific did your conversation get when it came to him being receptive? Is your boss the only person with the authority to assign you to work on a project? Are there other team members you can talk to for advice?

    2. Undine*

      Was anyone else involved in the hiring process? Who else did you interview with? Maybe they can give you some direction or someone else to contact.

    3. neverjaunty*

      You need to sit him down for another meeting and be clear and straightforward, not “gently encouraging”.

      1) You were hired to do [science stuff]
      2) You are being handed secretarial stuff instead
      3) You thought this was resolved at the previous meeting

      “What is the current plan to make sure I am given the appropriate amount of science stuff, instead of secretarial work?”

    4. Zathras*

      Good advice above. In the meeting with your boss, maybe it would help if you can point out any assignments that other people got which could have / should have gone to you? You want to be careful, because you don’t want it to sound like you’re whining about not getting a particular assignment, but if your boss says “well we just haven’t had anything for you yet” you could say “well, we’ve had X, Y, and Z actually.”

      If you are aware that there are tasks waiting that you could be doing, can you say to your boss, “I’d like to take on A and B over the next week, how does that sound?”

      It’s possible your boss isn’t deliberately not assigning you stuff, so much as not properly integrating you into his assignment thought process. So X is the kind of task Fergus is good at, Wakeen usually does Y, and Z is really similar to that thing Bob did last week. Oh, Jane is asking for something to do, hmm, she might as well take of these photocopies while I figure out what to give her. If this is what he’s doing, maybe getting him to realize it will help.

      And definitely push back in the moment when he asks you to make photocopies or whatever.

    5. female but I'd been lucky on this one up till now*

      Thank you all for the incredibly helpful advice – you have given me a lot to work with here.. I think the part of the problem is that he is seeing me as less skilled then I am, and therefore isn’t quite sure what to do with me. I’m coming from a workplace that heavily rewarded less assertive behavior patterns, and I’m realizing that that may be contributing to his underestimation my abilities and experience. I’ll meet with him again, and continue to pursue other project managers. I am hesitant to push back too hard on the administrative work as I am so underutilized. I’ll push back there if addressing the billable hours problem does not solve it on it’s own.

  139. Relosa*

    Quick opinion/rough poll/first gut feedback question for anyone, and a quick gripe about how to not treat new employees:

    Weird or not weird that my newjob a) uses handwritten timesheets and b) mails live checks directly from the payroll processor on the opposite coast? First check was lost entirely and so I only just got my first check 2 days ago, over 10 days late.

    We oversee a few companies with a total staff under 200 but they’re in different entities. This particular office is one company has 7 people on payroll–my sheet was missed as I was new and out of the office for nearly two weeks while we aligned training/new work schedules. Kind of frustrating that even when I asked I got no answer about how to handle submitting timesheets when I was out of the office immediately preceeding a holiday, and in the end my timesheet was still missed, so I have to submit it myself.

    It’s just a weird alienating feeling having to track down your own first check and then be literally forgotten/ignored on the second payperiod…so now i will probably be scolded for turning it in late when I’m not the one responsible for processing payroll to begin with?

    1. The Queen of Cans & Jars*

      The mailed checks is super weird. It’s way cheaper and more efficient to do direct deposit, and it makes me wonder if they don’t have quite enough money to make payroll?? Making it difficult for people to get paid would buy them some time.

      1. Relosa*

        Ohhh i didn’t mention that lack of DD is my choice temporarily, just due to a few logistics (my bank and I are very much in disagreement about which certain fees they charged me are legal or not, so we’re still working on that), but otherwise I have never heard of live checks being mailed directly.

        the company is really well-funded, i’ll put it that way. For me it screams organizational oversight and just lack of awareness in general.

        1. Emi.*

          I got real checks when I worked for a newspaper, my brother gets them for his lifeguarding job, and my husband got them when he worked retail (although that was his choice–he could’ve set up DD but he didn’t really like his job and taking an actual paycheck to the bank made him feel better).

        2. Dzhymm, BfD*

          I *strongly* enourage all of my staff to go with direct deposit after one incident we had where the pay packet was several days late and was feared lost. I had one staffer who got a hard check, so I called the payroll processor and had them express mail a replacement check. You can guess what happened next: the replacement check came, then a couple days later the pay packet came in and the staffer deposited that check as well. Much hilarity ensued (not!) as we tried to straighten out this mess. So from now on the policy is that we strongly encourage direct deposit. If you insist on a hard check, then it gets here when it gets here, even if it ends up being a week late due to mail snafus.

    2. Librarian*

      Ehhh a lot of places still do paper timesheets. Getting a paycheck through the mail would be more annoying to me. I love direct deposit!

    3. Sibley*

      They’re not the most organized, but new employee + holiday, I can see it. Sucks though.

  140. Had it up to here*

    How do you transfer important knowledge when no one else seems to care or they are so intimidated, they don’t even try?

    Background: I’ve worked at the same place for 4 years. I have been on the team longer than all of my co-workers. I hold A LOT of the workplace knowledge at my job- honestly, everyone should know the stuff I know, but for a variety of reasons, they do not. I recently went part-time to focus on my side business (with manger’s blessing- this is not unusual in my profession or company). My problem is I get called on my days off to be asked questions about things everyone should know. Sometimes they ask me to come in and fix things and I say no and direct them to resources. But generally, they don’t even try to solve it on their own or if they do, they get it wrong and I have to fix it when I get back (objectively wrong- I’m not just say it is wrong cause I didn’t do it).

    Since my side business is doing well, I’m looking to leave in a month or two and I am afraid they are going to be upset when I walk away and leave them with gaps in knowledge. I’m also afraid this will hurt clients (clients are people who are vulnerable in a number of ways) and I am afraid this will hurt my professional relationships if they say I left in the lurch. Any advice for how to say to my manager “No, really, you have to take this seriously” without pissing everyone off? My manager is nice, but doesn’t always see the gaps because I’ve filled them for so many years.

    1. Ghost Town*

      This may not help till after you’ve left, but could you compile their questions into an FAQ document that you share with them as you transition away?

      As a part of your transition, could you write up some of the institutional knowledge you have as a position history/position how-to?

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Not that anyone reads documentation when they should, but at least if you write up documentation, you can wash your hands of this and say “Read the docs. It’s all in there.”

    3. BadPlanning*

      That’s really frustrating — going part time is a great opportunity for them to “have” to do the things you do, but still have you as a resource.

      Do you have any vacation time that you could take? Like 1-2 weeks and be on a “can only respond sparingly” — perhaps that would be a wake up call for them and/or the manager?

      The last time I left a job, I did some formal-ish skills tranfers where I did a series of hour long meetings. I had a presentation with links other places, gotchas, etc. I was training remote employees so we could record audio/presentation, so in theory people can listen to it again. I don’t know if any “official skills transfer” type training might help them.

    4. Uncivil Engineer*

      This is extraordinarily frustrating but, unfortunately, you can’t force people who are not your staff to learn things.

      This happened to me three years ago when I transferred to a different Department. I left copious notes. I trained my replacement. I even worked on some small tasks on and off for 6 months after I left. My new job is distant enough that they couldn’t continue to ask me to fill the gap but close enough that I could watch my old group descend into chaos. I’m not the only one who has noticed the change either. It used to bother me a lot because I’d think, “They’re ruining my work!” Now I realize it ceased to be my work long ago and I can’t waste my energy caring more about their work than they do.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Unless you have an agreement that they can call you on your off hours, I would stop answering the phone so readily. Answer every other call or something.
      Or you can start your answer with, “What have you tried so far?” where it makes sense to ask.
      If you have left written instructions you could ask them if they have looked in your instruction booklet.
      Make them work at it, instead of rattling off the answer they need.

      It’s really not your problem. I understand that you are concerned about the clients but they will find a path through this. This is the type of thing that could give you ulcers/migraines/etc. if you don’t try to use a big picture perspective.

      1. Had it up to here*

        Honestly, this job had already given me migraines, so this is just adding to the load. I do ask what they have tried and they usually haven’t done much, other than send an email or two. I think I need to accept that my leaving means some stuff will get done less well and that it is not my responsibility. But I have a hard time accepting that!

        Thanks everyone for validating that I can’t change them. I’ll shift myself away from being as responsive and see what happens.

  141. StartupLifeLisa*

    Trying to decide what to do about a temporary contractor here – I think I have to let her go, but it sucks because I feel like she started out well and I wasn’t able to keep her at the level where she started. All of our temps are obviously job-hunting for permanent roles, and I hoped she would find something else after I started warning her about low performance, but that hasn’t happened.

    She is in a role where productivity is tracked objectively and she is sometimes only 20% as productive as the top performers on the team. Other days she is right up there with the top performers, but after three written warnings about productivity she has not consistently raised her numbers. She also asked at the last minute (the day before her trip) for permission to work remotely while traveling internationally. As she is not an employee and the work does not have to be done from a fixed location, I legally don’t have the right to tell her where to work, but everyone else on the team gives ample written notice if they plan to change their hours or to work while traveling.

    I had a serious chat with her after the last-minute request to work during her trip to a developing country (where she has Wi-Fi but no cell service) and told her I will have a hard time justifying keeping her on the team if she continues to underperform while requesting special treatment, such as not having to give us reasonable notice that she will be working from another country. She confided that she is dealing with severe anxiety due to not finding a permanent job yet and career changing in her early thirties, not being where she wants to be in her career, etc. However, others on the temp team – who have the same lack of security and same lack of pay – are dealing with equally serious life challenges and remain reliable. One person on the team is physically disabled with numerous medical appointments weekly and is performing better than the low performer.

    Today I found out that she only worked two hours of her scheduled shift yesterday without informing anyone she was signing off early, due to an emergency with her bank card during the trip. I’m shocked that she didn’t think to be more responsible and communicative after the serious conversation we had about how her contract would be affected if we don’t see real improvement in both her numbers and her level of responsibility around her work.

    Am I making mountains out of molehills, or is it high time to let go?

    2. Relosa*

      I think you have both mountains and molehills but they are separate. You have a contractor who is being worked and supervised as an employee, from what I read. I’m not sure of the terms of it anyway but that seems like the underlying issue itself.

      I kind of go hmmm when people express surprise over something like what you mentioned with the card issue. Firstly she is in a foreign country and there are a number of other logistical issues that you may not know about. I was once robbed in a foreign country and we were left with just an iphone that only had wi-fi…in the Andes (i mean we still had our luggage but in terms of technology and whatnot). It took us a full day and a half to get everything settled and delayed our itinerary by another 3 days.

      When you mention you’ve had serious discussions with her, how do those go? Do you actually say something along the lines of “your contract with us is at risk of termination if we do not see improvement in x, y, and z?” and describe what that improvement should look like? If they don’t, then I will bet she doesn’t know she’s on thin ice, even if you mentioned the bit about special treatment–and especially if that was the first time her employment with you was mentioned being at risk.

      1. StartupLifeLisa*

        I mean, she had a landline phone – she said a 4 hour phone call with her bank was part of the reason she failed to call me to tell me she wouldn’t be working her scheduled shift – so I couldn’t believe she didn’t, at some point in those 4 hours on the phone with her bank, think to call work and let us know where she was. Being approved to work during her international trip, for which she only gave us one day notice, was dependent upon her being able to fulfill assigned tasks, so I don’t really see the logistical issues as something I should expect/accommodate beyond what I would if she was working from her usual location.

  142. Dealing with burnout*

    I think I am facing burn-out in my job and I’m not sure what to do. I’ve read the articles on this site about burn-out, but I have a pretty unsupportive manager who I don’t feel comfortable talking to and the culture of the company is one of those that throws people under the bus.I’m not in a position right now to quit my job (we have a full-house renovation going on, a major move, and an upcoming wedding) and with my upcoming wedding, I can’t take any vacation time. Does anyone have any tips for how to deal with burn-out on the job in an unsupportive environment?

    1. kj*

      If you can, use a sick day for burnout.

      Turn off/block any way work has to contact you on the weekends.

      Take your full lunch break off-site and take any other breaks you are entitled too.

      Plan a daily treat for yourself for getting through the day without screaming- a nice bath, sitting outside when the weather is nice, a walk to the park, ice cream, something along those lines.

    2. pineapple*

      take your lunch AWAY from your coworkers. don’t check your email/slack/whatever.

      if possible, leave the building and eat lunch somewhere nice with a book.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Self-care is a biggie. Eat good foods, rest, and hydrate.
      Look around for supportive people. You might be able to put something together like puzzle pieces. Sue will help with X, Jane will help with Y and Bob will do Z.
      Then at home do the same thing. Ask for random helps with things.
      Prioritize, what is a must to do and what is a nice to do. Some things are not as important as we think initially.

      Can you take vacation time in the near future? If you know you are working toward some time off that may help also.

  143. AnotherAlison*

    I go to the gym before work, and accidentally left my makeup at home today (2nd time ever). I keep forgetting about it until I go to the bathroom and see myself in the mirror. I’m a low-maintenance person anyway, but I like foundation to even out my skin and eyeliner to look alive. I look tired and splotchy, but not too bad.

    Either my coworkers are oblivious or too kind to say anything. . .I’m hoping it’s the first and I found a way to shave 10 minutes off my daily routine. : )

    1. anon for this*

      Other people are oblivious. I have gone without makeup since June 1 at work and no one has even noticed. And I work with the kind of people who would say something if they had!

      1. AnotherAlison*

        Interesting. . .I may have to test this out some more intentionally. I’ve worn foundation for probably 25 years, so it would be nice to NOT for a change. I work with male engineers so they probably don’t/won’t notice.

  144. MyInnerDemonNeedsCoffee*

    I need some insight/advice/etc please —- I work for a large-ish organization and I share an office with someone that I have come to really dislike. When I joined the organization, he was my manager but thanks to a promotion a year ago, I am now on equal footing (also a manager). When I worked for him, I felt like he often didn’t give me credit for work or even notice a lot of what I was doing (although he got weekly updates and monthly reports for me). Personally, I think he’s ok (although I have moments where I just don’t find him likeable), but I’ve grown to feel a lack of respect for him and his management style. I’m aware that my feelings about him are tainted from what happened after my promotion, where my old position was not filled and I wound up doing 2 jobs for 10 months (with no support from him at all) and I started feeling overwhelmed and resentful.
    I know this is my problem and have been aware of that and working on changing my mindset, approach, etc. However, my supervisor mentioned to me this morning that whenever I say this guy’s name, I have a certain tone in my voice . . . and I was absolutely horrified, apologized and said I appreciated her letting me know so I can be more mindful.
    Does anyone have any advice on how I can either turn around my mindset (difficult, but I’m trying) or at least try to make sure I don’t have a certain tone? I freely admit that I am always trying to be a better person (better than I was the day before), and I have moments when I’m not as gracious as I could be. However, I really do want to work on this and I feel like I’m getting stuck on the fact that I both don’t like this guy professionally or personally. Any advice is appreciated. :)

    1. Not So NewReader*

      These things are tough, once we get to BEC stage it’s tough to draw back.

      I do have a very odd suggestion. Quietly, just to yourself, wish him well. I know, through clinched teeth and choking, right? Keep doing it. “Bob, I wish you well.” It’s very hard to keep wishing a person well and remain through the roof angry with them.
      He needs to eat and have a roof over his head. Just like you.
      You won. This is another thing you can tell yourself. You actually won here. And he is aware of that every minute of every hour.
      If none of this works, here is a sledge hammer you can borrow from me: “Is he worth derailing my job/career for?” He can unravel himself quite well. You don’t have to help him.

      I had a job where I fixed a lot of people’s mistakes and found other mistakes and pulled rabbits out of hats. The more of this I did I realized that things were changing for me. People wanted my help/advice/opinion. Management would ask me my opinion on a given thing. It seems to me that confidently cleaning up messes and effectively dealing with jerks is part of what makes an employee a super star. None of these changes are happening for him, he is backsliding. You aren’t.

        1. MyInnerDemonNeedsCoffee*

          Yes, thank you!! I’m going to try the little mantra you suggested and just keep working on it. :)
          I’ve also thought about making sure I get out of our office from time to time — just walking around the building for a few minutes can help re-set my mind.

  145. over educated*

    Next week I’m meeting with the director of the program that funds my term job. He’s going to want to hear how things are going. The meeting will be private but in my office. I’m not sure how to say nicely that even though we’ve made a few baby steps, the organizational culture of this place is keeping me from making progress on most of the goals and focus areas I was brought on to tackle. I’m incredibly frustrated by it, if I’d known how it would be I would’ve taken a different job instead because I’m afraid this is going to hold me back in my career, and I am slowly working on an exit strategy. But I don’t know how to say any of that professionally and I’m not sure if I can or should anyway. Thoughts?

    And then regarding exit strategies…do all consulting firms require working crazy hours? They’re probably my best bet in this area but I have a family and am not willing to work daily overtime.

  146. Potatoe*

    I’m an admin at a small law firm that I suspect is about to be acquired by a larger law firm. I… don’t really know what to expect? Our associate attorney tells me that when stuff like this happens, they usually retain the original employees (or at least pay a hefty severance if they don’t), but does anyone have first hand experience (good and bad) on how things shook out and how they handled mergers and acquisitions as an employee?

    Specific stuff I’m wondering about:
    – Whether this means I should (or shouldn’t) impact the sort of raise I ask for, as my annual review is coming up soon.
    – I’ve been at my current job long enough that I know when and how I can slack a little and when and how I should be bringing my A-game. If I get a new boss, I’ll probably be wanting to bring my A+ game for a while, at least, but any specific recommendations?
    – Should I start tentatively putting feelers out, job-hunting wise? My understanding is that when law firms are bought out, the employees are figured in as part of the package, and I don’t want to leave my boss in the lurch by taking off in the middle of things– but times are uncertain right now, and I feel like I ought to keep my options open.
    – If they choose to lay us off, what sort of severance is a reasonable one?

    1. EA*

      I use to work at a law firm, and watched this happen twice.

      In the first, everyone was brought to the new firm. Support staff, everyone. In the second, no support staff was kept, and they were all laid off. The severance policy was the firm standard (two weeks severance for every year of service). It really depends on what the lawyers chose to negotiate when they were figuring out the merger, and what they were willing to accept.

      You know what sort of a place you work for. If I didn’t trust who I worked for, I would aggressively job hunt, if I did then I would start a passive search.

    2. Naruto*

      Ask for the raise. First, the acquisition may not happen. Second, and more importantly, whether you get the raise is not going to affect whether the acquiring firm keeps you on. I mean, I could be wrong, but I just really doubt that. They might keep everyone, or they might keep no one (on the admin side; they are obviously acquiring the lawyers), or they might keep some people but not others based on certain criteria. But those criteria are going to relate to experience, responsibilities, the wishes of the people whose practices really matter, and the firm’s needs — not whether an admin is making an extra few thousands dollars a year.

      And start stealth job searching now. It would be ideal if you can make some progress on that but keep your options open until you see how things are going to play out. But this is something that may significantly impact your job security, not to mention what your job will actually be. Now isn’t the time — or these aren’t the circumstances — for you to be taking on that kind of enhanced risk out of a feeling of loyalty. This is not like a normal operational time, and your role is directly being cast into doubt; don’t be caught flat-footed.

  147. Rhodoferax*

    Just something I want to get off my chest.

    Fornicate recruitment agents who ask for my CV in MS Word format.

    My CVs are all PDFs generated in LaTeX, which I find gives REALLY nice results. Once in a while, a recuiter asks me to send it as a .doc(x). This is irritating for a couple of reasons.

    First up, there’s no reliable way to convert PDF or TeX files to MS Word. LaTeX handles complex formatting billiantly, but trying to so the same thing in a word processor is annoying, fiddly, and takes longer than it should.

    Also, you can’t just buy MS Office. You have to rent it, which costs $70 PER YEAR. Paying once for a piece of software is fine, but expecting me to pay regularly just to keep a deadman switch from closing everything is, to me, extortion. Plus, that’s $70 I could spend on other things.

    Plus, I use Linux, so I can’t use MS Word even if I wanted to. (Yes, I know about WINE, but that’s always been iffy when it comes to new programs). As such, all I can do is make up an MS Word doc in LibreOffice Writer and hope the awesome people at the Document Foundation have managed to reverse engineer Microsoft’s file formats so that it looks the same on someone else’s PC.

    1. Morning Glory*

      There are online pdf to word converters, some free, some that cost way less than $70 a year.

      A larger concern would be, if these are third party recruiters, whether they are making edits to your resume before submitting them?

      1. Fabulous*

        A lot of 3rd party recruiters delete all your contact information from the resume so the company cannot reach out to you directly and circumvent the recruitment process to avoid paying finders fees.

      2. Rhodoferax*

        I know, but those mangle my fancy formatting so badly I have to redo it again anyway.

        Yes, they’re making changes, but just to delete my contact info and replace it with their own. It’s hardly an ideal arrangement, but it’s common and I understand why they do it.

          1. OlympiasEpiriot*

            I’d vote for this. And, if I were a recriiter, I’d create a “stamp” for the pdf with my logo and address etc on it to put on the resumes. No big deal.

    2. Emi.*

      In my experience, .doc files out of LibreOffice get messed up when they open in Word (all the footnotes disappeared off a paper I submitted that way in college). I’m sorry, this sucks!

    3. pineapple*

      Also a linux user, and this is what I keep my google docs account around for. The google docs save as docx is a lot more reliable for me than libreoffice.

    4. Fabulous*

      Maybe you can get around their request by saving a copy of your resume without your contact info. That’s usually what they want to alter on it anyway. It also keeps them with “fornicating” with your formatting. Once had a recruiter forward a copy of my resume with all formatting deleted (or something) – the hiring manager had something 3-pages long in front of them that looked absolutely horrid! So glad I had a copy of my *actual* resume with me that day!

    5. Bea W*

      You can’t buy Office anymore? I know they had changed their model to a subscription when I went to buy a couple years ago, but they still had a buy option. I have no interest in paying $70/year to MS. Luckily many places are still using 2010 or 2013 and even older versions so I can milk those purchased copies for while.

    6. Chaordic One*

      I’ve gotten to where I also send PDFs for everything now. I have been using the free “OpenOffice Writer” as my word processing program and it will let me save OpenOffice Writer odt documents as MS Word documents, although it is possible there might be some minor formatting issues. (Because I don’t have MS Word I really don’t know what they look like when opened up in Word.)

      Does LaTeX give you the option of saving documents as an MS Word file like OpenOffice Writer does?

      Also, in my experience you can usually open “OpenOffice Writer” documents with MS Word.

    8. Observer*

      Actually, you can buy MS office, you just have to jump through some hoops to do it. If you have an older version, you should be able to use that, too.

  148. not the usual me*

    Does anyone here work in systems or service design? If so, what kind of companies or organizations are the main employers? Where do you recommend someone should go to teach themselves more about the field?

  149. Sibley*

    A coworker went home earlier today with pink eye. Now my left eye is red and irritated, and the doctor at the clinic downstairs confirmed I’ve got it too.

    It’s work related. I got it at work.

    3. Snickerdoodle*

      That’s awful. Ugh. Hope it clears quickly. We had someone knowingly bring one of their children in with it and allow said child to follow them around the break room while the rest of us were getting our lunches ready. o.O

    4. Tris Prior*

      Oh god. Yesterday, Co-Worker A and Co-Worker B were talking loudly about how red and gross A’s eye is, and how she should really get it checked out, and maybe shouldn’t have come in because it’s probably pinkeye….. and then A proceeded to work for the rest of the day. I spent the entire day trying hard not to touch anything and compulsively washing my hands. WHY do people come in to work with pinkeye? (other than not having paid sick time – WHICH WE HAVE along with the ability to work from home!)

    5. Sibley*

      The coworker didn’t know she had pinkeye when she came in (she’s young, and I don’t mean agewise). My eye was fine in the morning, though I had some trouble putting my contact in. I had to stay for an important meeting at 3, but left right afterwards at 4, and spent the time trying to avoid people and not touch things.

      I’ve got eye drops, just have to put them in every 2 hours while I’m awake. I caught it very early, so it hasn’t had a chance to get bad and should clear up quickly as a result. I’ll work from home until it’s cleared – I don’t want to pass it to anyone else!

    6. Anastasia Beaverhausen*

      Ha! My boss totally expects you to come in to work with pink eye… and I work at a hospital. Despite all the employee heath hoorah and generous pto… you better have one foot in the grave before you call in sick. Of course Corporate vocalizes the opposite, management is a different story. And if you complain about anything you have a target on your back. So what happens is you come to work, tell the whole place you have pink eye, and everybody gets very assiduous about washing hands and wiping things down with cavi-wipes. Same goes for pretty much all communicable illnesses that I’ve seen in my many years here. Those who call in for pink eye, flu, bad colds, low fevers are bad-mouthed and shortlisted for next one out the door as it deems them complainey, not a team player, lazy, unreliable etc. ya know. You can run to HR all you want and they will always side with management.

  150. Amanda2*

    When applying for jobs, is there any acceptable way to find out if the company is still accepting applications for a posted position or if it has already been hired and the posting just not removed yet (for positions that say “Open until filled”)? In the past week, I’ve just started applying to new jobs after a relocation. I filled out 5 applications and sent them out. In less than week, 2 of the postings were removed and, I assume, filled. The field I am in requires a substantial application, including the following provided up front: transcripts, letters of rec, copies of certifications, resume, CV, and, of course their completed application packet. Compiling and completing all of that can take up to a couple hours per application.

    Had I known the application process was just about completed for both those positions and, I assume, both organizations had a candidate that they had already hired or were ready to hire, I obviously wouldn’t have spent all that time. For one of the jobs, I had to send in a paper application packet via snail mail, and I don’t think they had even received it yet before the posting was closed and removed.

    Is it worth reaching out to HR and asking if a position is still open and applications being accepted prior to putting all the time/effort into preparing an application? Or is this one of those things that I have to just chance it and apply in hopes the positions is still open? Thanks!

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      I don’t think you should reach out to HR and ask. Chances are, they won’t tell you whether the position is filled or not, if they’re even able to disclose that information.

      Job hunting sucks! This is one reason why.

      1. Amanda2*

        Yes, I can imagine there’s really nothing they could say or reveal about where a posting is in the hiring process. So frustrating!

  151. pineapple*

    Our boss recently changed how we track PTO (including sick time), claiming it was due to a change in city regulations. This would be fine except that the city regulations don’t require this change in tracking. The city regulation requires X number of sick leave, and we have unlimited PTO. Most we’d have to do would put a line in our handbook saying you get AT LEAST x hours. Previously, PTO was scheduled with our team, and if you needed to take something unexpected, you scheduled it as soon as you knew with your team. Now we have to email our PTO, down to the hour, to the office admin.

    Obviously, the company can do whatever it wants to our PTO, but this is really skeeving me because of the claim that it’s due to local law. I’d really just rather have our boss say that this is how he wants to do it now. Am I overreacting to this?

    1. Emi.*

      If the policy change came at the same time as the law, it might not be a cover story–it might just be how your office is interpreting the new law/updating their policy to make it obvious that they’re in compliance. That is super annoying, though.

    2. Natalie*

      I wouldn’t assume lying/malice if you have no evidence. Genuine misunderstanding or an abundance of caution regarding being in compliance are way more likely.

    3. KR*

      I think you’re overreacting a little. Just copy the office admin on your emails to your team.

  152. Purple snowdrop*

    Reality check: if I’m planning life changes that will involve a period of turmoil, possible house moves, and immense stress, I probably shouldn’t apply for internal jobs at the mo…. right?? My team loves me and I’m good at what I do and when my depression plays up they accommodate me.

    I kind of feel like I should be looking for my next post, but it won’t do any harm waiting for 6 months or so… will it???

    I’ve been in my current job 2 years, my colleague who started at the same time got a promotion to a different team a year ago, and my current colleague has been open for ages about the fact they are job searching (have been on current grade a long time even though they’ve not been in my team for long).

    1. Manders*

      I did pretty much the same thing–I even interviewed for the job I currently have right before rushing home to meet the movers. So it’s possible, although it’s not pleasant.

      To be honest, I don’t recommend it if you can avoid it. I started searching too early and had to turn down a job offer because I had no idea whether my commute would be feasible since I didn’t know where I’d be living. I also didn’t take into account how much moving and general turmoil would cause my normally well-managed mental illness to flare up. There were some months where I was having kind of scary memory problems from stress, and while I don’t feel like I’m running on fumes anymore I’m still not 100% back to my normal energy.

      You’ve already got a great reputation with your team and they’re understanding about your depression. Those are probably more important in the short term; you don’t want to rush into a new job when you’re not feeling good enough to make a strong first impression.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      You can have any feeling you want and it’s okay.
      I also agree now is not the time for you to find a new job.
      Six months is a hiccup. It’s a moment.
      As you go through your life changes you will probably be grateful that work is remaining a constant. It’s still familiar while other things are different.
      Set yourself up so that you have the best chance of success with everything you are doing.

      1. Purple snowdrop*

        Ooh good points all. And I’ve found in the past that even when this job has been turmoil-y it’s stayed somehow pretty constant. Thank you!

  153. I hate reply-all*

    I work at a large organization ~1,000 in my division, ~240,000 worldwide. We are encouraged to participate in community activities such as Relay for Life fundraisers and other walks, races etc . There is a fundraiser coming up in a few months (October) for a specific disease and one person at the facility sent out an e-mail (to the facility-everyone email) several months ago saying she was participating and inviting anyone else to who wanted to participate to form a team with her, since then there have been many updates (to the entire facility) about how much has been raised (like weekly updates). I’m on the point of emailing back and saying I’ll donate if you stop emailing me! It’s not that I don’t care but I’m not interested in your Lularoe fundraiser and I don’t want to hear weekly about how much you’ve raised. I’ve got my own pet disease I donate to and I don’t put it in your face. I had no issue with the first hey I’m doing X any body else want to form a team but that should have been the only all facility email, form a list of those who were interested and email them about what’s been raised.
    I’m also irritated by the announcement emails that get sent out, well not the announcement itself just the misuse of the reply all feature that inevitably accompanies them. Things like “Person X has just been made director of Y” then 3 billion Congratulations X! emails. Send your congratulations to the person not everyone and stop clogging up my inbox!

    1. Michelle*

      I just click ignore once people start that reply-all business. I’m busy enough without notifications popping up constantly. Due to nature of my duties, I have to keep my Outlook calendar open all day.

  154. Fresh Faced*

    Late to the thread but could use some advice. I’m in the middle of applying to Company A and while writing my cover letter 2 specific projects of A are what stood out to me as the reason I want to apply (beyond them hiring and me being unemployed =)) On their site they mentioned Company B who they collaborated with on the projects and I looked up that company. B seems to have done the section of the projects that I’m actually interested in/ specialize in ( Company B made the core of the product, Company A made an app related to the product) in addition Company B just seems more put together and a better fit for me than Company A.
    Here’s the snag. Company A actually has an open position, whereas B is only open to speculative applications, else I’d just apply for B.
    I’m not sure whether to apply to both as the cover letter would be extremely similar (the projects they collaborated with are the most interesting project A has and the only project B has) and both companies seem to be located in the same city (potentially even the same office) so they might be close enough to see my application pass through both. Do you guys think that would that count against me?

    1. Chriama*

      If they’re 2 different companies it’s probably fine. People typically apply to more than one job.

  155. Death Rides a Pale Volvo*

    ARRRRGH! Husband has had 4 really good interviews but they didn’t go anywhere. ARRRRGH! If anyone has any leads for IT nonprofit jobs in the Portland/Salem OR area, hit me up. In the meantime, I’m trying to keep him from sliding from “feeling blue” into “despair.”

    1. nep*

      Man, that’s got to be nerve-wracking — Hope one of those works out. (Or more.) Let us know.

  156. Lenina Huxley*

    Thoughts on internet/technology addiction as an actual thing? I spend a ton of time on social media, games on my phone, etc. – both when I’m supposed to be working, and in my free time when I could certainly find better ways to occupy my time. This is definitely hurting me at work, as some days I think I’ve spent more time doing nothing than actually working. I’m at the point in my career when I really need to start ramping up the productivity in order to secure a better position for myself going forward. Procrastination has always been a problem of mine, but is this procrastination or something more? Or am I just THAT lazy and loathe to do actual work? I’ve tried site blockers, taking a break from social media, things like that. I inevitably just find some other new website or app to waste my time on. I have, it seems, very little willpower. Thoughts/ideas/advice?

    1. Manders*

      I worried about this at my old job. To be honest, I didn’t have enough work to do, I didn’t have much oversight or feedback, and my boss seemed to be annoyed when I finished projects ahead of schedule. Plus, the work I was doing was routine and boring, so even though mindlessly reading the internet didn’t feel good it was more appealing than working.

      I’ve found that I can get around it by either 1) making sure I stay in a career where I have lots of opportunities to learn new things and 2) keeping a podcast on while I work/clean/do whatever needs to be done. I also deleted the social media accounts I found too addictive (for instance, the Reddit karma system hooked me in for hours every day, but I can check Tumblr once every few days and be fine). If you never do new stuff and you’re not allowed to have headphones on at work, maybe you’re not in the right environment.

      I still do have problems with procrastinating on stuff like writing projects at home, but that’s more about my unhealthy perfectionist attitude.

    2. Rincat*

      I ran into this problem in my last job and it was due to burnout. I really needed to move on to a new position/department, but I was reluctant to give up my benefits (telecommuting, private office, etc). However I realized that I basically just didn’t care about my job, the department, or the mission anymore, and nothing I could do culled the procrastination. So I got a new job, and found that my productivity went through the roof! I don’t even feel tempted anymore. So try to analyze what is driving you to procrastinate. Do you not have enough to do? Do you feel uninspired by the work? Do you hate your department? Just things to think about.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      What are you escaping from?

      OTH, do you get enough rest? Tired minds and bodies have lower will power.

    4. Observer*

      Addiction is a real thing, so it’s good that you are looking at that. But, I’d probably start looking at the procrastination first – it sounds like you need more than some tips on how to stop procrastinating. Also, as NSNR pointed out, take reasonable care of your physical health, and look at what you may be running away from. That’s a good idea regardless of whether this is addiction or not because if it does turn out to be addiction, you’re going to have to do that anyway.

  157. JennyLou*

    I’m going slowly crazy after applying for my dream job. It’s at my alma mater, in the department I worked in as a student, and I have a recommendation from the VP of a related department. He’s in on the hiring process and has been in touch just letting me know some people were on vacation. But! That was 2 and a half months ago. Luckily I have a job I like, but how do people who need a job survive these kinds of waits?

  158. nep*

    Perhaps a naive question / approach here. But interested to hear anyone’s thoughts, insights. Do you apply only to jobs you’re completely sure you want in every way? Or will you also apply to some that have some disadvantages you’re still weighing? I know there are trade-offs in everything. (And that we can never really know just how a workplace/job will be till we’re in it.) Just wondering — perhaps you have a set list of absolute deal breakers and then and proceed accordingly?

    1. Rincat*

      I have an informal ranking of disadvantages from show-stoppers to minor things. My biggest show-stopper: a stressful commute. I live in the DFW metroplex so I just cannot have a complicated, stressful commute. A long commute might be fine if it was just easy highway driving, but here in DFW, it typically means multiple highways with terrible traffic.

      But even if the commute was horrible, if they let me work from home most of the week? Then I’d suck up driving across the metroplex for 1-2 days a week, and the job was pretty great. So to answer your question – not even my showstoppers are absolute, but I have to consider the total package of the job. But when I’m job searching I tend to stay away from companies that are too far away from me, for example.

      1. nep*

        Thanks. Interesting this is the factor you mention, as it is the main downside of one job for which I’m considering applying. I, also, was thinking that maybe it would turn out they’d allow for telecommuting most of the time, particularly in inclement weather. Anyway your and Emi.’s comments are helpful in this case.

    2. Emi.*

      I’d say apply even if you’re not sure, because going through their interview process will give you more information so you can make a better decision either way.

    3. Anon Anon*

      It depends on how much I want to leave the job I have. If I’m pretty desperate then I’ll apply to most things that I think I’m qualified for, and don’t have any major turn offs. If I’m not then I’m very selective.

      1. nep*

        Great point. My hours where I’m currently working are down to almost nothing — so I am pretty much in ‘I’d better apply everywhere I can and take anything’ mode.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I try to limit the amount of those jobs I apply for. This is because in the past I have taken anything that was doable for me.
      You know you the best. If you have a habit of not being discerning or grabbing whatever, then slow down. Watch what you are doing and know WHY you are applying to a place with a deal breaker or two. Be able to explain to yourself why you are applying.

      Think of times you have taken jobs with deal breakers and you just could not jump that hurdle. Why did that not work out for you? Perhaps the people were nasty on top of the deal breaker. Perhaps the pay was too small for the long commute. Barest minimum, try not to repeat settings that did not work for you in the past.

      It’s confusing because there are so many variables involved. Ask yourself, “Given X, Y and Z do I have a chance of succeeding at this job?’ Did you ever notice there are some jobs where you can catch yourself saying, “Yep. I will be okay here, I will understand the job and I will become good at it.” For me, if something feels off going into the job, I usually do not bounce back. The job feels off for the duration. Once in a while, when it feels off a disaster follows.

    5. Ramona Flowers*

      My take is that I don’t only apply for jobs I’m completely sure I want, because I cannot be completely sure at application stage – it’s just not possible. I apply if I’m reasonably sure I want it, which is all I can be if I haven’t visited the premises, met the people, etc.

      I have learned this from experience. For example I really wanted one job until I actually went there. I withdrew from consideration because the whole place was so eerily weird and miserable that it felt like a prison camp.

      On the other hand I wasn’t sure I actually wanted this one freelance job, to the point where I regretted applying and felt stressed about wasting time on the interview, until I got there – I left feeling like I really wanted it and I absolutely loved working there.

      So I just don’t think it’s possible to be sure. I do have deal breakers in mind, but the main ones are simply decent money and work I’ll enjoy.

  159. Sparkly Librarian*

    It seems likely that my local union for public service employees will call for a strike soon. I’ve never been on strike. Any tips from those with experience?

    1. AfterBurner313*

      Hunker down and don’t spend cash unnecessarily.

      Do you have a sub fund? Figure out what is required qualify for that. Usually it’s walking the picket line.

      Don’t be a scab and cross the line. Everyone I know who has done that gets bit in the behind eventually.

      Do you have workers who don’t have to join the union, but benefit from contract? UGH.

      Hope you have good negotiators who won’t crumble at the table.

      My father worked for a Big Three autocompany. Strikes where just a way of life back then.

      1. Sparkly Librarian*

        Thanks; that was helpful. I quizzed a steward tonight and got basic answers plus assurance that someone (not the same person who is bad at sending emails to the membership) is on top of FAQ/songsheets/PR and all the logistical support. Sounds like we’ll be getting support from Teamsters, etc. to bulk up our picket line numbers and maybe augment the union fund. I guess I forgot it was bigger (and maybe more functional?) than just the library.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Check your union handbook and/or website to see what the union’s expectations are for its members.
      If you are not sure who your union rep is, find out. Keep her contact info handy like on your cell or in your wallet. Definitely NOT in your desk.

      1. Sparkly Librarian*

        You’d think that would be my first stop! I don’t recall getting a handbook, and the website is less than helpful; however, some basic googling brought me to strike FAQs from other chapters. I will be suggesting that an FAQ sheet be distributed to members prior to the strike. My experience over the last few years is that while the union leadership does a good bargaining job, they’re terrible at communicating with members en masse.

  160. Dee*

    I work as a contractor, often through recruiters. A company wanted me very short term but after the initial interview it seemed like a bigger job than the recruiter had briefed me on. I asked for a bit more $ to account for this (pay rate was less than i usually make still but i was ok with that).

    Instead she set up a 2nd interview for the client to go through the work and they argued the rate with me. I’ve never been in such an awkward and unfair situation. It was bizarre. It’s been a day and i haven’t heard from the recruiter. I haven’t called myself as i am so mad as how could i even work there now? It’s tinged the start with negativity. Payment talk is why we use middle people! I’ve never had this happen before and i don’t know how to handle it with the recruiter at all. She has 10 years experience and i suspect doesn’t care which is why this happened.

    1. valc2323*

      Honestly? I’d drop the relationship with the recruiter, if you can afford to, and make it clear that this is the reason why. (Unless the second interview was “to discuss further” and she truly had no idea the company would use it as a sales pitch, and was horrified when she found out – she could be not calling you because of how embarrassed she is, in which case the remainder of this post is a bit strongly worded.)

      “Jane, I was concerned about the pay rate for this job, and very surprised that your response was to set up a meeting for the client to try to convince me that I should accept what they are offering. It was a very awkward situation for me, and one of the reasons I work through recruiters to help me find contracts is so that we have a layer of separation for this type of negotiation. I appreciate the efforts you’ve made for me in the past, but going forward, I will be working with other recruiters.”

      You and the company seeking contractors are both clients of the recruiter, because she doesn’t get paid if she doesn’t place someone with the company, and she can’t place someone if she doesn’t have anyone to place. That gives you just as much power to walk away if the situation warrants it.

      1. Dee*

        Thank you so much, your words are perfect, I’ll post an update if I get a response.

  161. nep*

    Anyone have fairly recent experience with Randstad? I temped through them many years ago — just would be interested in any reviews, thoughts.

    1. De Minimis*

      I can only speak to the employer side, we had a temp receptionist through them that we hired full time about 8 months later. They had a fairly reasonable policy on converting people to full-time [fairly minimal fee if the person had worked at least 600 hours.]

      However, we tried using them for other candidates [more technical positions that involved more knowledge of Excel, etc] and never could find a fit. It seemed like most of the candidates were trying to make a transition out of retail/service industry into office/clerical work–most did not have college degrees, and that was a problem for some of our roles. I don’t know if they’re like that in every market though.

      1. De Minimis*

        But anyway, as a candidate, I’d probably try to go with a different company [or at least additional companies] just because I’d be afraid an employer might not even look at Randstad if they were looking to fill certain positions.

  162. Delta Delta*

    Still figuring out this self employment stuff, but it was a lovely day today so I used my freedom to take a walk in the park this afternoon. What’s life if you can’t take a walk in the park on a beautiful day?

  163. Me*

    An online friend has some interns in her office this summer and she got a doozy. She said he lazed around the entire time and actually fell asleep on the floor once in the back of the office. She wanted to fire him, but I think she just had a discussion with him about his behavior. After this, and before the program ended for his group and he (fortunately) left, he stuck a drawing of a turtle into every single document he scanned. Like a whole day’s worth. They had to go through all the documents individually and delete the picture.

    She did report the guy to the internship program director. I felt bad for laughing because she was so exasperated. We all agreed she was lucky it was ONLY a turtle!

    2. AfterBurner313*

      Turtle? At least it wasn’t a picture of his “short comings”.

      Then MamaBear’s cub will be wondering why he’s still a basement dweller.

      Dodge a bullet with that one…

    4. tigerStripes*

      Terrible but so funny! I’m also glad it wasn’t a picture of his shortcomings :)

    5. This Daydreamer*

      Don’t feel bad for laughing – you know she’s going to see the humor of this later! Point her here next time there’s a nightmare intern thread.

      o(O)~ (pathetic asci turtle)

    6. Observer*

      I’m laughing, too. But heavens!

      I hope he gets zero credit for this internship. Out of curiosity, why didn’t they fire him – at least after the turtle incident?

  164. nep*

    I am not on social media. (I know…it’s like saying I don’t have indoor plumbing.)
    I’m not interested in it for myself, but I should know the basics as some jobs I’d apply for would call for basic knowledge. Suggestions on how to get started, just to learn the ropes a bit? Some ways to ‘practice’ and just have a feel for it?
    (And the other day I read a column that held that one has absolutely no chance of finding a job unless one has a social media presence…..A quite heated debate / comments followed.)

    1. nep*

      (Just in writing my question and thinking about this, it occurred to me..I could do a blog that’s related to my career interest and expertise — I’ve got a pretty good idea of what I could do for this. I know blogs are a dime a dozen and I’m not looking to make a big splash or anything — just for the purpose of the practice, as well as something for a prospective employer to see.)

        1. Toph*

          If the jobs you’re applying for specifically want basic knowledge of social media, they probably don’t mean blogs. They probably mean FB, twitter or instagram. However, I don’t think you necessarily need to have accounts on any of those things. If what you need is just familiarity, you can go to the sites in a web browser without having an account and have a general sense of how they work. If your job will require you to manage corporate accounts on those platforms, you probably need to know a bit more, and it’d probably register as odd to an interviewer if you’d be in charge of one but don’t use it personally. But unless the job actually requires you to use those platforms, I’d say you don’t need to. Plus they tend to be fairly straightforward, by design.

          1. Colette*

            It’s not just about the technology, though – it’s also about the culture. What’s #tbt or #ff? How can you see what’s trending and, if you’re a business, when is it appropriate to tie what you’re saying to a trending topic? Why is one of the most popular twitter accounts a dictionary?

            If the job is just being aware of social media, that’s one thing, but if it involves representing the brand on social media, that’s another.

    2. Liz*

      Get a facebook profile and join a group related to your industry or a hobby. Maybe start a page to use as a place to blog. That will give you a basic sense of how these things work.

  165. Liz*

    I got a substantial raise this week, and the way it came about was extremely amusing (to me) so I thought I’d share:

    I work as a PA for a group of individuals who rent rooms on the same floor. There are about 20 people in this occupation on the floor, and I work for a fifth of them. It’s an unusual job, in that there are times when I’m very, very busy, but there are also times when I have nothing to do, and have to occupy myself while being ready to spring into action at a moment’s notice. (I read a lot of AAM and Reddit, I blog, I’ve written 20,000 words of a novel — I’m very good at seeming productive.)

    One of the things that I don’t do is offer to do work for other people on the floor. If they need a hand with something, I’ll help them out, and I do some low-level technical assistance, keep the photocopier running and the coffee machine functional, but I don’t do PA work for others. I got the impression very early on that my bosses would rather that I didn’t, so I’ve set very clear boundaries with the people who don’t employ me.

    Well, about a month ago, my predecessor stopped by for a visit. She was a student when she had my job, and she has now graduated and is working in the same field as my bosses. I guess that’s why she blanked me — career admin professionals aren’t worth her attention.

    But her attempt to schmooze my bosses backfired, in that it reminded them of how difficult she was to work with, and how much I was an improvement. My second-most-senior boss called me in after she left, and basically gave me the rundown on her time in my job: she was competent, but not overly so (I spent my first month in the role fixing her filing), she was very into office politics, and she just … stopped speaking to or working for our most junior boss. Instead, she accepted gifts of cash from other people on the floor to do their work.

    And yet, when she was leaving, she cried because the junior boss didn’t contribute “enough” to her going away gift, and also lobbied hard against my hiring, because she wanted a friend to have the job.

    Her brief visit so irritated my bosses, and made them appreciate me, that they set the wheels in motion to give me a raise. Of ten percent.

    Me: “I feel like I’m already well-paid for a job that isn’t especially demanding, are you sure?”
    Them: “Shut up and take our money.”

    (Realistically, I was rather underpaid for the type of role I have and the prestige of the people I work for, but given how much downtime there is, I was effectively being paid extremely well to sit at my desk and write a novel. A friend once joked that, without even being published, I’m one of the highest paid full-time novelists in the country.)

    ANYWAY, I don’t think it’s possible to replicate this particular situation, but it turns out there’s a lot of benefit to be had from keeping your head down, doing your job, not being a jerk, and treating people well. Even if they are career admin assistants.

    8. Zathras*

      I love this story. Sounds like your bosses had the sudden thought “What if she leaves and we get someone crappy like Previous PA again? Quick, let’s pay her more so she doesn’t leave.”

      It’s good to know they value you, too – it can help later if personal life happens and you need to ask for flexibility around it.

      I can totally see myself having a similar knee jerk reaction – “You want to give me a raise? Why?”

    9. tigerStripes*

      Treating people well is important, no matter who they are. Someone who is snooty to you because you have a job they think is “lower” somehow is not a nice person. Good for you!

    10. Observer*

      This gave me a good laugh. Your bosses sound like decent people.

      It’s just the reverse of the letter this past week from the guy who never thought that being nice to people was important for his career.

  166. Jess*

    Dear hive mind:

    I would love ideas for signs to put up in our office kitchen that convey “OH MY GOD JUST CLEAN UP AFTER TOURSELF ALREADY FFS” only in a professional way. Maybe with *slight* humour without tipping over into twee or condescending?

    My manager is getting increasingly irate, so signs are an unfortunate necessity. We’re a small office, only 15 people, but it’s just things like cups and bowls left in the sink (instead of the empty dishwasher right next to it) crumbs or sprinkles of instant coffee on the bench, microwave splattered. All very usual annoying things in the office environment, alas.

    I’m want wording that makes people actually DO what we’re asking without being condescending or dictatorial. Any examples out there that were effective in your office?

    1. zora*

      Sorry, but in my experience, signs don’t make any one do anything.
      You need to actually talk to people, face to face, send reminder emails, regularly give verbal reminders, and politely correct peoples’ behavior in the moment. And have consequences ideally, but this often is part of office culture to me, either the office has a culture of pulling your own weight, and gentle reminders regularly help nudge people back on track… or, there is a culture of avoiding doing your part, and no amount of yelling or consequences will make people keep the kitchen clean.

      The other alternative is to just make cleanup part of someone’s job description, and compensate them fairly to make up for them having to clean up after people.

      There are no easy shortcuts on this, IME.

      1. NJ Anon*

        Warn everyone that anything left in the sink at the end of the day was going in the garbage. And then do it. We had a similar issue with “science experiments” growing in our fridge. I gave everyone notice that anything left in the fridge at 3:30 on Friday was getting tossed. So at 3;30 I threw everything out. The office cleaners were finally able to give the fridge a good cleaning over the weekend and everyone one loved it

        1. Zathras*

          This is really the only solution, in my experience. There is a certain type of person who will always leave the bowl if there are no consequences. They think “I’ll wash it later” and then forget. So when they read the signs, they don’t even think of themselves as Someone Who Leaves Bowls In The Sink. They are just Someone Who Forgot To Wash Their Bowl That One Time*.

          (*Every Week)

  167. Effie, less broken*

    Is it weird for me to feel iffy about this situation? I need a reality check.

    I just moved across the country and have a part-time job that I love. In looking for another job, my friend A recommended me to a friend of hers (Friend B) who is opening a new lifestyle gym (first of its kind in a state full of lifestyle gyms) and looking for trainers. Friend B emailed me about three weeks before my move to touch base, which was basically, “heard you’re interested, here’s the corporate website for more info, let’s touch base when you move out here”. I’m not sure if I’m interested, so I want to meet up with her and chat about her vision for the gym, her marketing plans, etc. She asked me to text her when I got here and I did, asking where and when she’d like to meet up for a chat. She responded by letting me know when/where and that she’d send me audition material.

    Audition material? I’m not even sure I want this position. I want to learn more about this concept from a human being (not a website) before I commit to an audition. Is it okay for me to respond saying, hey, while I’m open to chatting, I’m not sure I want to put in all this effort yet? I don’t want to waste either of our time, so I really want more info.

    Thanks for any input!

    1. Zathras*

      It might be just a misunderstanding. Sometimes when people are talking about possible jobs, they use kind of delicate language – “It sounds like an interesting opportunity” can mean everything from what it says, to “OMG please hire me yesterday”. So, she may have misinterpreted.

      I think it’s fine to reach out and say “Actually, before I spend the time putting together an audition, I’d like to ask a few questions to figure out whether I’m interested in applying. Do you have half an hour to chat sometime?”

  168. paul*

    After today’s experince dealing with a vendor I am going to need to know how to tell a provider that I am unbelivably pissed without coming across as rabidly unprofessional.

    Factors: Vendor is state selected to manage part of our equipment that the state provides.

    We were switching offices (literally, down and across the hall) in our building.

    We reconnected said equipment early afternoon only to be given an error message that said we had exceeded our maximum licenses.

    Our local IT contractors were there and went and did basic trouble shooting (this stuff is power over ethernet equipment and they wanted to be sure there wasn’t a kink with the wiring or the servers or w/e) while we started to try to get ahold of them.

    Emails and phone calls and no response for several hours; we gave up at about 6:15pm local time after initiating contact at ~3pm. Not so much as an automated response to my damn emails!

    I’m planning to ask my boss and possibly our CEO about officially complaining with the state, but I want to make clear how unresponsive, disorganized, and damned worthless these people were, without coming across as as mad as I am right now. They wasted our staff time, our clients time, our IT contractors time, everything.

    Any suggestions on how to go scorched earth when you’re dealing with a shit vendor that’s state selected and kind of crammed down our throats? is there a chance it’ll matter if I do?

    1. Toph*

      Before you go scorched earth, have you reviewed the support agreement? I’m assuming if you’re this pissed that it’s definitely outside the terms stated in the support agreement that you get a response in under 3 business hours (and/or that support goes past 5pm or whatever).
      If this was a prearranged thing, as in, the vendor knew specifically today is cutover in new office day, have someone on call in case something comes up, by all means, scorch away. But if that is not the case, and this may have been in queue as a regular service issue, it may be worth double-checking what type of response times are outlined. I still think they treated you poorly here because the nature of your issue is clearly urgent and probably should’ve been escalated or at minimum an autoresponse that someone would get back to you, but before you rip them a new one, you probably want to be certain about the terms. For example, if they promise a response within 4 business hours, but between 8a-5p, then your initial contact at 3p might mean they’re still technically within bounds.
      I’m also wondering specifically if the devices are POE and you moved offices and got a license limit if the issue isn’t you plugged them in elsewhere, and they talk back to the provider but in a manner such that the device isn’t reporting itself as itself, but it is registering as you having devices from more (ie new) IP addresses, so the software thinks “hey that’s too many” rather than “hey this one device moved”.

      1. paul*

        This has been on the calendar with them for about 2 weeks (short notice but stuff changed in the building we lease in).

        And that last paragraph is exactly the sort of crap we need them check on and see; we literally *can’t* AFAIK.

    2. AMPG*

      Honestly, unless you’re one of the major users of said vendor’s services, going scorched-earth with them is unlikely to do anything other than get you even crappier service in the future. At the end of the day, you don’t employ them. On the other hand, I would pursue all available avenues to complain to the state directly. Attach a dollar figure to the loss of time – even better if you can tie that dollar figure directly to state dollars.

  169. NoodleMara*

    Advice on moving from a good job to a more relevant and interesting job?

    I like my job. I’m paid decently for it and I do a good job. I interned there for two summers in college and they hired me full time and it’s been three years. It just hasn’t been as interesting to me on a personal level because of my long term career goals (not a standard work enviroment, agriculture). I’m finding two issues. 1. I don’t want to leave this job until the end of the year. We get year end bonuses based on the company profit and that is where my raises have been. We are already through the worst of the season. When should I start applying for jobs? Most companies I’m aiming for would be around the same size. I was thinking september but it’s hard to judge.
    2. What should I do about references? I don’t want to put current coworkers or my boss because if I don’t get any job offers, I’d be fine to keep working there. There are no former coworkers who have worked with me because there isn’t much turnover with people leaving. Most get moved to different areas. My biggest issue is that word spreads very very quickly through the company and there are some notorious gossips that would spread the word. A coworker who left (not someone I would ask for a reference), had his leaving reach other coworkers weeks before he put in his notice. It’s in a rural area and everyone knows everyone. I’m planning to move out of the area but I want to tread lightly. Any advice would be great!

  170. allison*

    Has anyone else had a job they hated, but couldn’t leave for some reason? Any tips for sticking it out? I accepted a job cross country with relo/bonus benefits and am stuck for another 11 months unless I pay back about $30K. My fiance hates the new city and the work environment is awful, so it hasn’t turned out as I’d hoped.

    1. nep*

      Sorry you’re having to face this.
      Any redeeming qualities of the job at all?
      Does the job allow you much time to pursue other interests that might help make your situation a bit more tolerable?
      Would cutting your losses and leaving ruin you financially? Have you toyed with the idea at all?
      What has helped you cope up till now?

    2. Amanda2*

      In my field, we sign 1 year contracts. Sometimes it feels endless waiting for that year to be up. One time, my fiance and I were moving cross country at the end of the year and both of us were pretty unhappy with our current contracts. It was very challenging making it to the end of the year and sticking it out when we had an exciting cross country move ahead of us.

      In the past, I’ve tried to focus on preparing myself for what’s next. I really just tried to keep my eye on the prize (the cross country move) and do a lot of planning and research about the new location. I would think to myself that yes, I was stuck in that position for the remainder of the year. But, I was going to use that time to really fully prepare myself for the next job and next location. Sorry, that’s no major tip for you… but really, just get yourself in the mindset of your move and think of your current location as just a temporary holding place and use your time there to fully prepare for (and possibly even improve yourself) for whatever comes next.

    3. Zathras*

      Do you have to pay the whole $30K back if you leave 10 months from now, or does the amount go down over time? Either way, figure out the point at which you can safely start job searching. Mark it on your calendar. Come up with a step by step plan to have everything ready by that day – resume updated, new suit bought / old suit tailored, practice interviews, cool side project finished. Taking baby steps the whole time toward getting out will help. Basically what Amanda2 is saying, but you may find it helps to set specific milestones, that help you feel like you are getting closer to launch.

      At work, manage your energy. You aren’t planning to stay here long term, so as long as you leave on reasonably good terms with a good reference, that’s all you need. Do a good job, but don’t go above and beyond when it won’t help you. Leave work on time as much as possible.

      This last one isn’t possible for everyone, for many reasons, but: if you can, start socking money away. Figure out how much you would need to quit your job, move, then 6 months to find something in the new place. If you can save that in a reasonable time frame, pick an appropriate Absolute Last Day at your current job where you will give notice even if you don’t have something lined up.

    4. allison*

      Thank you, nep, Amanda2, and Zathras, for your kind comments. :-) Setting milestones and using the time to get fully prepared for moving back to our home state is a good idea. So is leaving work on time as much as possible, though for whatever reason, that’s so hard for me to do (I tend to get over-invested in work and put in very long hours).
      Unfortunately, I would have to pay back the entire 30K if leaving before 11 months (it’s a 2 year contract, and it’s not pro-rated). It’s possibly do-able, but it would basically mean using up the entire wedding/honeymoon fund.

      Here is one more question. If May 15th could theoretically be my last day (as in, that is the date at which I would no longer have to pay back the relocation and bonus) and presuming I have another job lined up, when would you actually give notice? I am not happy with my new employer and don’t relish staying any longer than I have to, but don’t want to leave them high and dry. At the same time, I wouldn’t want to give the notice too early and run the risk that they let me go before the 2 years are totally up and I end up stuck having to pay back the benefits anyway!

      Talk about a lesson learned the hard way… don’t accept relocation benefits (especially with a 2 year clause) if you are not 110% sure you will be happy with both the new job and the new location… I had no idea that a cross-country move was so expensive since we basically only had an apartment’s worth of stuff!

      1. zora*

        set yourself an alarm on your phone, and when it goes off, it’s time to pack up and leave. No exceptions. You can start by just doing it one day a week, but find ways to set boundaries for yourself with external triggers, like alarms.

        I would give notice on the 15th. It’s true, you just never know if they are going to walk you out that day. I know what you mean about giving them more time than you absolutely have to, but once you are at that point, 2 weeks is not much time, you can handle another 2 weeks to get to the 15th.

        But then I would also start now, planning for something you really love that will make you happy for May 16th. Or as close to that as possible. This was a common strategy on political campaigns, not that people hate the job necessarily, but it’s hard and exhausting and most people hit a point where they don’t think they can keep going. Someone told me, all of the leadership plan a trip to Mexico every year, leaving 2 weeks after election day. So, it was August, but I bought myself a cheap flight to Ecuador for November, just after election day. That way every day that I wanted to just breakdown and cry because I was so tired, I would remind myself about my trip, look at some pictures of Ecuador and remind myself: i just have to get to November 10! It doesn’t have to be travel, but something you really love that is special and gives you something to focus on and look forward to.

        I know it’s hard but I stuck out a job I was hating for 2 more years, and while it wasn’t easy, I did make it, and now it doesn’t seem that long looking back. I’m glad I stuck it out. Good luck!!

        1. Allison*

          Thanks for the advice. I will have to try the alarm method to get better about not working excessive hours (I guess that is contributing to both my and my fiance’s unhappiness in this already-crummy situation). Planning out a “reward” for making it through the clawback period is also a great idea.

      2. Zathras*

        Are you 100% sure you have to pay it back if they let you go? It could be worth checking with a lawyer about that. Otherwise, what’s to stop them from letting you go on May 14 for no particular reason and taking back their $30K?

        I guess either way the safest bet is to give notice May 15 and just work at least 2 weeks notice after that. If 2 weeks would be kind of short but you can’t/don’t want to stay longer, you may be able to subtly work on getting things ready for your departure ahead of time, so even though you don’t actually give notice until 2 weeks out, you will have already done a lot of the documentation and other self-directed parts of wrapping up at that point, and can focus fully on the other-people parts in the last 2 weeks.

        1. Allison*

          The terms of the relocation package state that I have to stay 2 years or pay back 100% of the costs if I voluntarily resign or am terminated with cause. Ideally, I would give at least a month’s notice since it’s a specialized job role, but in these circumstances, I’m just trying to make it to May. So I guess giving them my 2 weeks notice on May 15 will be the way to go. Good call on getting documentation ready ahead of time.

      1. Purple snowdrop*

        Ooh, can I ask why? It’s very similar to the dress I wore with a jacket to the last two interviews I had, both of which I was offered. Only thing I can think is the colour but the jacket would tone that down.

        Also, I love this dress!

          1. Jessen*

            I think I’m worried that traditional dark colors plus a severe/masculine hairstyle plus minimal/no makeup (allergies) would end up looking too severe. And I absolutely cannot wear anything that isn’t either dark or bright without looking ill.

            1. Observer*

              Well, there are other choices between red print and dark severe colors.

              If you can do pastels, that can work quite nicely. Or even a red blouse with a dark skirt and blazer.

              The other thing is that cut and material can make a difference – a softer blouse vs a crisp collared cotton shirt, for instance, can make for a more feminine look.

              It shouldn’t really matter, but the description really threw me off – this thing is NOT intended for work (unless you are working in a Mad Men type office.)

    2. Chaordic One*

      Depending on the job and the workplace it would work. I tend to be a bit conservative, but I’d wear it with a white or black jacket depending on the season and situation.

    3. Sneaky Spy*

      I can see it working in a casual office environment, but the red is too bold and might not be the best interview outfit.

      If you are going for feminine, try slacks and a blouse with a floral pattern, some jewelry, and soft makeup like a berry lip. Have some eyeliner and neutral eyeshadow. Make sure your brows are done. I’d do this to keep the attention on my face and in particular, my eyes. So keep up normal eye contact.

      lol, just found this video- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3meszUFA9GI

      Maybe a top like this https://www.macys.com/shop/product/calvin-klein-pleated-shell?ID=4629360&CategoryID=39096

      1. Jessen*

        Generally I have to wear either very dark or bright colors – anything that’s at all pale or midtones makes me look completely washed out and grey. A shell like that would almost certainly make me look ill. I’m also having allergy issues, so makeup is likely right out, unless you want me to be going to the interview with a red splotchy face.

        1. Jessen*

          I should add that my worry is that traditional dark colors + severe masculine hair + no makeup is going to lead to a too severe look. But I just can’t pull off soft or midtone colors, I’m too pale and they just kind of make me look sickly. So I’m not really sure where to go that’s acceptable.

          1. Lurker who knits*

            Can you try a different bold color like royal blue or emerald green? Is a skirt-suit an option? A solid fabric would also be better, IMO.

            Also, what about earrings to soften your hairstyle?

            1. Jessen*

              A skirt suit would definitely be overkill – a suit would be more like “what are you doing applying for this job?”

              1. Observer*

                What about a skirt / pants with blouse and jacket – so less formal that a suit, but gives you a chance do a pop of color without going overboard.

                1. Jessen*

                  Probably still a bit much – the skirt and the jacket matching would still be overkill.

                  It feels weird describing the field as casual, because it’s not, but…it’s very entry-level and not career track, so I feel like doing too much signals “I’m not really here for this job at all.” I’ve already got a BA and an MA, which is two degrees more than most people I’ll be working with, I think going too business would just not work.

                2. Observer*

                  Not matching, but coordinated. For instance, I generally wear a dark skirt with a shirt and cardigan.

                  As others mentioned, jewel tones can be good for people who can’t wear cream / off white, or really light pastels.

                  Also, if you want to skip the jacket / cardigan, wearing a skirt, especially if you go a-line, presents as feminine. Same for wearing a softer blouse vs a crisp shirt.

    4. Amanda2*

      I think it would be fine with a blazer or cardigan, however the field I am in is not overly formal (more business casual).

    5. ScarlettNZ*

      I disagree with Ramona. I think it’s perfectly acceptable for an interview outfit. I used to work in recruitment and wouldn’t have blinked an eye if someone wore that to an interview (even without a jacket on top). Disclaimer: I’m speaking with experience of NZ and UK workplaces – the norms in the US may be different.

      1. Kate in Scotland*

        I work in a conservative industry in the UK and I think it would be fine with a black blazer if the job isn’t super-formal. (In my exact field I’d wear a suit for an interview, but this would be OK for normal workwear. I’d wear a top in that fabric to an interview.)

      2. Ramona Flowers*

        I’m in the UK and this wouldn’t be interview appropriate anywhere I’ve worked.

        What about bright colours like magenta, fuchsia or emerald instead?

        1. Jessen*

          I don’t know – I guess I have a hard time seeing any shade of pink as something I’d wear to an interview (or anywhere else, for that matter). And most of this stuff doesn’t come in those shades – it’s hard enough to find one dress that’s in a shape that fits me, sadly.

    6. This Daydreamer*

      I’m not an expert, but my immediate thought was lose the print and pick out something a little less flowy. I really like the red. I think it will make you stand out a little bit while still being professional.

      1. Jessen*

        My main worry on the “flowy” is dresses and skirts tend not to work very well on me if they’re not kind of flowy. The result of your average straight skirt is that there’s a 2-3 size difference between my waist and my rear, sadly.

  172. As if*

    I’m late! For the night owls…
    My brother, after years of being an independent consultant, has taken an office job. The change in environment is stressing him out big time. He’s not used to being surrounded by office mates, or having a boss throw new projects at him, or all the other the day-to-day stresses of office life. Are there any recommended books out there with techniques for handling professional stress? (A good book on handling big life changes might be helpful also.) TIA!

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Not really a direct answer. But stress/anxiety/etc. can have some of their roots in lack of knowledge or lack of facts.
      Each time he encounters something stressful encourage him to look around for more information so that he can be better equipped to handle the stress.

      Another good thing is to remind him that at least the first six months of any job is going to be stressful. Sometimes it can take a year for people to finally exhale. Self-care is super important. Anticipate that the work day will be demanding because everything is so new. Get extra rest, eat well and hydrate. Yes it matters, tell him.

      When I started the job I have now, I read materials related to the work each night. I set a time limit so it did not turn into a grueling marathon of self-teaching. Usually it was about 45 minutes to an hour. But because I did it every night, it added up. And it helped my confidence. I knew I was working at the learning curve and in time things would improve.

  173. Mark S*

    How do I prevent errors:

    I am currently working in a very detail oriented position and want to know how everyone else prevents errors and ensures quality of their work, whats the most effective way of double checking your work? It seems no matter how much effort I put in something always gets left out or some small error slips through.

    What helps you?

    Thank you

    1. Mazzy*

      Make a checklist of past mistakes and check for them every time you do the same report, or whatever.

      Audit your report (or whatever) against past copies you know are 100% accurate

      Take a walk or break for ten minutes between finishing the work and checking it and or between checking it and sending it out

      And what I do is export my work into Excel and audit it all different ways – I look for duplicates, for missing fields, for city and product type matches that don’t make sense, I count the number of columns to make sure its the same as last time, etcetera

      1. Mark S*

        Mazzy,

        I really appreciate this advice! I really wish there was a resource, software, or procedure to check for errors.

        Thank you again!

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      Team up with a colleague and give each other’s work a once-over, if you can.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Agreed with everything here.
      I have found that deciding not to make the same error twice has been very helpful. Other people DO notice that.
      If I know I am having a bad day or a groggy kind of day, I increase my double checking practices.

      Sometimes there are ways you can do two double checks. For example if you have columns of numbers you can add down and you can check the subtotals going across. The subtotals should equal the number you get from adding down.
      As you become more familiar with the work and common pitfalls you will be able to build in more stops so that you can catch yourself.

      1. Mark S*

        Not so NewReader: I really appreciate this! it also helps to know I’m not the only person who makes errors :).

  174. Golda*

    I got an offer today from a great company paying me $15,000 more a year! I don’t know that I would have gotten it without the advice from this site. I’ve made so many changes to my resume and completely redid my cover letter. It feels great to have this opportunity after haven been denied a promotion two times in the last 6 months.

  175. Beyond Fashionably Late Here*

    Any recommendations on how to deal with the office Know-It-All? OMG this guy just will not stop one-upping people, and things start to go towards a heated debate. And to add to it, half the time, he doesn’t even know what he is talking about, but will still keep insisting his viewpoint. He is new, and maybe he’s trying to make a name for himself. But on his first day, he immediately began tearing his old job apart!

    Another coworker already reported this to the boss, but nothing was said to him yet. Should I say something to him? It is frustrating, and he tends to be condescending especially towards me (plus I’m female which might help your advice).

    Thanks.

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      Dont get into heated debates. Just change the subject and don’t engage. Ignore him if need be and turn back to you work.

      Reporting it to the boss though, really? And why would you know if anything was said to him?

      1. Beyond Fashionably Late Here*

        It had been reported because it is consistent, like in every conversation you have with him. He tries to always have a correction with what you have to say, and it doesn’t matter if you are already 100% correct. On top of that, he is very condescending. If he realizes I have a task that I have done since I began at this company, he’ll try to tell me how to do it. He’ll even say how I could do the most simple thing (a basic know-how) on the task and offer to show me how to do it. But like I said, this behavior is consistent. He has been told by each of us in varying degrees that we are capable of doing our jobs. One has even told him to dial it back.

        We can sometimes tell if the boss says something to someone because of two things: the behavior changes and a generic message is given to the group (usually after something has been said directly to the individual). We’ll see.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I would respond to the parts I see.
      “Please don’t tell me how to do my job. Thank you.”
      “Please stop explaining and start listening.”

      I am not buying the idea that he is new and trying to make a name for himself. I think this is just the way he is. That is why you guys have not been able to get him to stop. He would have stopped by now if it was just new person jitters. If it were me I would start speaking to him more directly.

  176. Basketcase*

    My boss just left for better things. We were very close, and others saw me crying after our final goodbye. In fact,someone tried to ask me a question after our goodbye, and I was too emotionally overcome to answer. She noticed that I was overwrought and suggested i just carry on with what I was doing ( a welcome distraction). I pulled it together and did my job. Have I lost all creditably for being “too emotional?

    1. bunanza*

      I don’t think so. It’s not unusual to form close work relationships, and most people will understand that. I’ve seen coworkers cry both for personal reasons and when a beloved coworker or boss leaves. No one has ever mentioned the crying again afterwards, let alone formed negative opinions of each other for it. It sounds like your colleague wanted to be sensitive and give you space–that’s a compassionate and non-judgey reaction imo.

  177. bunanza*

    For the last few weeks, I’ve been covering for a few hours a week at a sister office. Last night, my supervisor at that office was hospitalized, and my boss asked me to cover the full day there–and at the end of the day, asked me to work overtime next week to cover the sister office as well as my home office.

    I’m friendly with the sister supervisor, so there was a brief moment in which I wanted to call her and ask where X, Y, and Z were (still a little new to the office setup). But as soon as it crossed my mind, an AAM hammer smashed the thought: don’t bother people who are on leave! I found what I needed myself, and she can recover in peace. Thank you for the wisdom, Alison :)

        1. Ramona Flowers*

          And it’s made me feel pretty great – the only person on the thread with a similar job to me has 6 years more experience, twice as much responsibility, and earns 1k less than me.

  179. Anon for This*

    I just learned that a very good friend of mine was let go from a new job after only 3 weeks. He’d been unemployed for several months and was really enthusiastic about the new job. He says he feels kind of sucker-punched because he really hadn’t gotten very much actual work done and was busy doing a whole bunch of new employee orientation stuff.

    He says he thinks it was because his Excel skills weren’t as good as his new employer would have liked, although he seemed to be learning fast. He says he thinks his ex-boss didn’t really know much about Excel and thought that all you did was input some numbers into cells and then push a couple of buttons and out comes a chart complete with labels and everything and that it was a bit more complicated than that.

    (Personally, I always wonder if some of his problem might be that he’s obviously gay, but I don’t say anything about that to him and I try to be encouraging. We live in one of the many states where there is no legal protections for LGBT people.)

    The really bad part is that he cancelled his Affordable Care Act health insurance because he thought he’d be covered by his employer, and now he’s worried that he won’t be able to go back to the ACA coverage. I’ll do some research tomorrow and see what I can find out for him.

    1. Sneaky Spy*

      I think it was good that you refrained from voicing your suspicions because there’s no proof or indication it could be due to that and your friend is likely aware that people can probably accurately guess what his orientation is. This is a tough situation. On the issue of his insurance, usually changes in employment are part of the criteria for being qualified to enroll. I wish your friend and you the best of luck.

    2. zora*

      yes, losing his job is a qualifying event so he’ll be able to get back on ACA. It should be pretty easy.

    3. Cap Hiller*

      If his employer offered and your friend accepted health insurance, he can enroll in an ACA plan because losing the employer insurance creates a new enrollment period for him. If his employer didn’t offer or your friend didn’t accept, I’m not sure. He can always enroll in a plan and just not take a subsidy for the rest of the year until open enrollment or until he gets a new job (but I understand that may he cost prohibitive).

  180. Amanda2*

    Have any of you taken a new job (same type of position as previous job) and accepted a lower salary than earning before? I was definitely taught that each new position should be an increase in salary so I’m having a hard time with this one.

    I may have been over-paid in my previous position. I lived in an area where people who are in my field are harder to come by so my company may have raised their salary for the position to be able to attract candidates. I am moving to an area where people in my field are MUCH more common and there are more candidates, causing salaries to be a little lower.

    Anyway, just wondering how common or uncommon it is to take a new job for a lower salary.

    1. Allypopx*

      People do that for all sorts of reasons. It’s super common when you’re moving – it might be like your situation, where the job market for your field is different, or cost of living might be different, or a number of different things.

      Sometimes people move into lower paying positions because they like the culture at the new company better, or for a better commute, or because there’s more opportunity for growth…it’s really not that uncommon. Do what’s best for you, don’t get too caught up on overgeneralized conventions.

    2. Here we go again*

      How does the cost of living compare between the two cities? It’s very possible once you factor in your expenses, the salaries will be comparable, or you will indirectly be making more with the new job.

    3. Kyrielle*

      Having the number go down when you move is a little different. How do the costs of living compare?

      For example, I’m in an area right now where a studio or one-bedroom apartment (a small one, obviously) is going to be $1000 or more. A decent two-bedroom in a good complex can run double that.

      I picked an arbitrary other city – the same studio or one-bedroom, on the small end, goes down as low as $575. The same salary will go a lot further there. (Not moving there, though – I like my job and where I live. But if I were, I might take a dip in salary and still have my standard of living go up!)

    4. Chaordic One*

      After losing a really great job during the big recession of 2008 I took a significant pay cut out of desperation to have a job with benefits. It’s now a good nine years later and though I’ve had several significant raises in that time I’m still not quite back to where I was back in 2008. It’s just the way it is.

    5. LS*

      I haven’t moved for less (although maybe with benefits it would have come out less) but I’ve moved at the same salary several times, for a good opportunity, or to get into a new field. I wouldn’t do it now, because I have a family and my costs are much higher than they used to be. I don’t think it’s something to do lightly, but you have to look at the big picture and not just the number on your payslip.

  181. Willow Sunstar*

    Had interview Thursday afternoon for promotion, would be at an office location I can walk to. Really hoping I will get it, but I had so many “practice” interviews last year that I am starting to lose hope. They didn’t ask me anything I could not answer. However, I was a bit put off that they kept pressing me on the “Did you ever have an unhappy customer?” one. I explained that since part of my job is dealing with PLUs, those are govt. restricted and I cannot always give people the item descriptions they want because we have to go with official descriptions or the company might get fined. I have always explained this to internal customers who keep pushing back, so they won’t get mad at me. No one has ever gotten really mad. So is that a bad thing? I do the best I can to give them what they want, but I have rules to follow, too. We cannot always bend the rules.

    1. Allypopx*

      They probably pushed because they expected you to say yes and wanted to followup by asking you how you handled it. It’s unusual to never have unhappy customers. It’s not inherently bad though.

      1. Willow Sunstar*

        Well, it’s not that I never had an unhappy one. But I was always able to clarify why they couldn’t have xyz, so they quit pushing back. However, they were never really angry with me. I do think communication skills help.

  182. S.*

    Hello,

    I’m at a loss and would love to hear your thoughts on the following:

    I work in a small office where the working hours were 9-6 and there needs to be someone until 6. After the office was relocated last fall, Jane has been starting at 10am since she does the school run and then has an hour commute. It was recently decided that the hours would be reduced by an hour for the rest of the team to match Jane’s. We were all told that Jane was to do 10-6 as usual and the other person and I could either do 9-5 or 10-6. It’s been a few weeks now and Jane is now saying that it’s unfair that she is always finishing at 6 every day and she wants to finish at 5 several times a week.

    It turns out that her husband got laid off a couple of months ago and therefore does the school run. She could have gone back to the standard hours, but she kept it quiet and is saying that it just happened now. She can also work in a different office a lot closer to her home a few times a week, and she always goes there at 10 even though she could be in at 9. This week, she texted our colleague and I the night before to tell us that she’d start at 9 the following day and we both told her that it was too short notice and couldn’t change plans. She did this twice and the second time, she showed up at 9.

    She complained to a manager who said that we all needed to be flexible. The thing is that I have an hour of commute each way too, and I don’t have the option of going to a closer office. She also told this manager that she would spend a entire month this summer in the other office which is 10/15 minutes from her house because of her commute was being disrupted temporarily. The other team member agrees that Jane should keep doing 10-6 as decided initially by the boss, but as she lives close to the office, and is friends with Jane, she is reluctantly willing to be more flexible.

    I feel that I’m right and that should not have to accommodate my schedule for Jane who’s been having less hours since last fall. And I know it’s only an hour a day, but it’s a lot nicer for me to finish early, and I don’t think it’s justified for her to impose her schedule whenever she sees an opportunity to get more advantages. I’m curious to know what is your opinion on this situation? And how would you recommend to act considering that the manager is siding with her?

    1. CM*

      I think that regardless of all the ways that Jane has been sneaky and has been working one less hour in the past, the facts now are (1) somebody needs to be there until 6 and (2) Jane is no longer willing to be that person every day. Could you talk to your manager about working out a fairer schedule so you can share the load (or ideally, have somebody else be the 6 p.m. person)? You could think about a phase-in period where Jane continues being there until 6 every day for the next month or so while everyone else has time to adjust their schedule.

  183. Stardust*

    I have a second interview Monday! Ah! I really want this job, and hope I get it. Any second round interview stories?

  184. risk analysis*

    Career advice needed: Does anyone here work in a job that requires them to do policy-related risk analysis/build risk models? If so, how do I get in on this and what skills do I need?

    Thanks!

  185. Desperate for Work*

    I am having a very difficult time getting interviews. There are huge gaps on my resume that employers apparently don’t like (I haven’t worked 1 day since a brief temp jobs in 2013). It’s getting to the point where I’ve been thinking of fudging the dates on my resume so that it looks like I haven’t been jobless for that long. Otherwise, I really have no clue of how to get employers to notice ME and not my gaps.

    1. Liz*

      From everything I have have read here, don’t do it, it will come out! But I understand the reason you want to. There is advice here about this, I hope some of it helps you.

    2. Chaordic One*

      Don’t fudge the dates. Allison has provided some good tips about how to return to work after having a gap in some of her previous columns. Here are links to some of the stories:

      https://www.askamanager.org/2014/03/returning-to-work-after-10-years-as-a-kept-woman-should-i-let-my-manager-know-about-my-crippling-anxiety-and-more.html

      https://www.askamanager.org/2016/01/8-tips-for-parents-returning-to-the-workforce.html

      https://www.askamanager.org/2014/10/i-took-a-year-off-to-travel-and-now-employers-are-holding-it-against-me.html

      https://www.askamanager.org/2013/02/job-searching-after-being-a-stay-at-home-mom.html

      I would also advise you to consider doing temp work. Most temp agencies will screen you to see if your typing and clerical skills are up to snuff and if so, in my experience, they’re happy to place you in a temp job that will allow you to pick up experience.

      1. Desperate for Work*

        I’ve been trying to get temp work, but the agencies I’ve signed up with don’t call me about them. One hasn’t called me about any jobs since I joined them in January.

        Also, none of those links apply to me. I’m not a parent and I’ve never had anxiety. Just been jobless for most of my adult life.

        1. Dienna Howard*

          If the temp agencies aren’t contacting you, try contacting them.

          In terms of gaining experience, look into volunteering at different organizations. That’ll help boost your resume.

  186. Liz*

    Does anyone know how long HR at a large state university keeps records? I had an issue as a student worker about 10 years ago. I would like to work there someday and have no idea if I am blackballed. And any suggestions about how to ask?

    1. Chaordic One*

      This is something that is likely to vary from school to school. In your place, I would probably apply for the job and see what happens. There’s no real way of knowing if you would even get an interview or not, even if the issue doesn’t come up, but if it is a good job, it is certainly worth the effort to apply for it.

      If you get an interview and the issue comes up you might consider having a response along the lines of
      that you’re now older and wiser and would handle the issue differently or something like that.

      1. Liz*

        I did apply for a job, got an interview, it did not come up in the interview but I do wonder if there is a big, “do not hire for any job,” notice in my HR folder, assuming I have an HR folder.

        1. Chaordic One*

          If there were a big “do not rehire” notice in your HR folder they would not have bothered to interview you and since the matter did not come up in your interview I would imagine that there was probably something else, like a different applicant who had more experience or who interviewed better or who was a better fit for the job.

          There really isn’t any way to know for sure, but don’t ask and don’t beat yourself up about it. Just keep applying for jobs. If another job at the university opens up it wouldn’t hurt to apply for it, but don’t get your hopes up too high.

  187. Turtledove*

    My partner has been talking a bit, recently, about how it might be good for me to get back out into the working world. It would help our finances, but we’re also not in a situation where it’s a necessity for me to get a job and contribute that way. (We’re very lucky, I’m aware.)

    There’s a few problems with this, for me: the last time I got a job, it was in 2013 and that was after about a year and a half of searching after having graduated from college and then completed a paralegal certification course. The job was at an inbound call-center and only lasted until February of 2014, when I was encouraged to quit because my voice was too quiet.
    I haven’t had any employment since then, and that was also my first real job. And I don’t have any references that I can think of who aren’t obviously friends or family. (After this long, I don’t know if anyone at the call center would even remember me.)

    Additionally, I am on the autistic spectrum and I have always struggled with interviewing. And I’m not entirely sure how good an idea going back into the working world is for me – by the time I was shoved out of the call center job, I’m pretty sure I was starting to burn out, but I don’t have enough experience to know if that was just normal stress or if it’s a sign that *if* I look for work outside of self-employment, I need to be looking at something with flexible hours or low customer interaction (or both).

    If I decided to go back out into the workplace, how would I even create a resume that looked decent? Only one job, and gaps between when I graduated, when I finally got a job, and when I started looking again, is going to look weird – I know that. I’m not sure I could even get a job that isn’t going to be similar to my last one (although a housemate works at a local grocery store, so…well, there’s that option, if necessary? They’re usually hiring, I think).

    1. Chaordic One*

      I would give you pretty much the same advice that I gave to “Desperate for Work”. Allison has provided some good tips about how to return to work after having a gap in some of her previous columns. Here are links to some of the stories:

      https://www.askamanager.org/2014/03/returning-to-work-after-10-years-as-a-kept-woman-should-i-let-my-manager-know-about-my-crippling-anxiety-and-more.html

      https://www.askamanager.org/2016/01/8-tips-for-parents-returning-to-the-workforce.html

      https://www.askamanager.org/2014/10/i-took-a-year-off-to-travel-and-now-employers-are-holding-it-against-me.html

      https://www.askamanager.org/2013/02/job-searching-after-being-a-stay-at-home-mom.html

      I would also advise you to consider doing temp work. Most temp agencies will screen you to see if your typing and clerical skills are up to snuff and if so, in my experience, they’re happy to place you in a temp job that will allow you to pick up experience. You’ve got your education to promote and you should have some good personal references, if nothing else.

    2. Adele*

      Chaordic One has offered you lots of good advice and I wish you the best of luck. From your message you sound like an intelligent, introspective person.

      I am responding to you to strongly encourage you to get back into the working world because you need to look out for yourself and your future. While I realize people of your age have a bleak outlook on Social Security, it is still the system we have and you are paying nothing into it and will not be entitled to take anything out of it. You refer to your “partner,” not your “spouse.” If you are not married, you will not be entitled to your partner’s benefits. You are not paying into any other sort of a retirement fund or putting away savings of your own. I realize this all seems a long way off, but you need to prepare for the future now. One never knows what the future brings and everyone should be prepared and able to take care of him or herself if the need develops.

      1. Turtledove*

        We’re common-law, and we had a marriage ceremony last year, but we’re not legally married right now. I’m also in Canada, so the situation isn’t quite the same – but your point is taken. (My partner has been taking steps to make sure that we’re both starting to get ready for retirement, even though it’s not planned yet – but I should still be taking some steps of my own.)

  188. Pamela*

    So, I have been in college for the past year in a healthcare program. I started an externship this summer and realized I hated the actual job. I’ve decided to go back to my old career and I have already had interviews. The problem I am having is actually quitting my externship. I need to send an email to my college externship coordinator, and I just don’t know how to word it. I sort of don’t want to burn bridges, but I feel that may be in inevitable as this particular person hasn’t been friendly and had been a bit callous to some of my struggles while in school (but she’s been supportive to others – I think she just doesn’t like me.)

    Anyways, anyone have any ideas on how to word an “I quit my externship” email?

    1. CM*

      Dear Coordinator, I have decided to resign from the externship effective [date]. I appreciate the opportunity to work with you/organization, but I am planning to pursue a different career path. Please let me know if there is anything I need to do to follow up.
      Thanks, Pamela

      1. Pamela*

        Nice, thank you. I had something similar, but yours sounds much more professional.

    2. amanda_cake*

      Is this externship required for graduation from your healthcare program? Are you going to finish the program or no?
      I would finish the externship even if I hated it if I intended to finish the program, regardless of if it was required or no to avoid burning bridges. If I wasn’t going to finish the program, then I would say exactly what poster CM says.

      1. Pamela*

        Sorry for the wall of text below.

        Yes it is required for the degree. But, I have too many hours to go to finish it. I’m only have about 40% done. It’s been long enough though for me to realize the terrible mistake I made in pursuing this career path. I don’t want to finish it because I have zero desire to ever work in this particular healthcare field. And because of the nature of the externship, I am not allowed anywhere near my phone. Even if I could sneak a look at it, the building & healthcare equipment jam any cellular signal. So, if a recruiter/employer calls me, I won’t get any voicemails until either lunchtime, or until after 5pm that day…and then I have to wait until lunchtime the next day to return the call. I had to use my lunch hour one day just to have a phone interview. It left me only 10 minutes to eat my lunch.

        Thing is, I made a schedule and everything to be done with the externship by a certain date…because I might possibly be starting a job the following Monday. But, it was like the universe spoke to me…when the acting practice manager ordered me to go home early on my first day of the schedule [Short story: she’s crazy and I did nothing wrong. Really. She just didn’t want me around anymore for the day. I begged and pleaded to stay. Nope. Sent home.] So, even if I kept to my schedule, I wouldn’t have been able to get the required hours in now. So, it was pointless for me to keep to the schedule and keep going to the externship. I just really want back into my old IT career and I’m so sorry I ever left it.

        I’ve done some reading into the “Sunk-cost fallacy” and I realize that I am just holding onto something that I don’t need to…and that it is robbing me of potential opportunities. I feel putting in the hours would be giving up much needed time to be available for interviews – like being able to answer my phone and return the call within the same day. I also am studying for additional IT certifications that would increase my qualifications so I could be more desirable as a job candidate and even be paid more.

  189. This Daydreamer*

    Ugh. I need to vent. Normally I love this job, but today the Drama Llama showed up drunk and has been swinging from the chandelier singing Mmbop at the top of her lungs for the past ten and a half hours. I think she may have finally gone to bed, but the gods only know what her mood is going to be like when she wakes up hungover.

    I should note that the above isn’t a precise description, but I have to maintain confidentiality.

    Well, I guess I’m getting the second complaint filed against me in the past week. Luckily, my bosses and coworkers know exactly what’s going on and there’s not much chance they’ll even chide me for it gently. I may even get another apology. But still, right now, I’m feeling a bit overwhelmed and questioning my ability to do this job. *sigh* I’ll stop my middle of the night whine now. I really shouldn’t feel sorry for myself when all of the residents are here because they’ve been through hell but there are days that just leave me flattened.

    1. Turtledove*

      Don’t feel like you’re whining. You had someone show up who was disruptively drunk (from what you’ve been able to share without violating confidentiality). That’s miserable to handle at any point. And don’t try to compare yourself to what other people have gone through – not everyone handles things the exact same way, and something you could shrug off could be devastating for them and vice versa.

      If it’s at all possible right now, do some self-care. Take a day off, if you can afford to, or spend your time-off doing something you particularly enjoy and find relaxing. Do some things that make you feel happier.

      1. This Daydreamer*

        It wasn’t so much one person showing up drunk as it was DRAMA EVERYWHERE!!!!

        But thank you. It’s been a long night, and I still have five hours to go. I won’t be back for a couple of days but I have doctor’s appointments on both days off. After that I’ll have a nice, long break. I’ll need it if my next shift is like this one!

  190. Eric*

    I’m pretty late but I’ve got a question.

    How do I handle recruiters pushing me to interview for places I already know I don’t want to work? This has happened a couple of times and I’m not sure I’m good at firmly putting my foot down.

    Example: Recruiter sent me a couple of job descriptions, one of which is for a company way outside of my commuting range. I said I was interested in all the others and sent him my resume. Recruiter also sent my resume off to the company I wasn’t interested in, and they want to do an interview. I politely declined, repeating they’re way out of my commuting range. Recruiter asks me to interview anyway … by blowing up my voicemail with messages begging me to, because he’ll look bad if I don’t go in.

    I really don’t want to work with this recruiter anymore after that. Not sure if I should say that or how I’d say that.

    1. amanda_cake*

      I would politely tell the recruiter that I am not interested in interviewing for said position and that I’m no longer interested in working with him.

      1. Eric*

        Sounds good, thanks! I was overthinking that.

        I guess he’s having a hard time finding people because of the distance, but that’s not my problem, especially not after he started pressuring me to interview there.

    2. CM*

      It’s unethical for a recruiter to send an application on your behalf to a company without your permission! And pressuring you to interview so HE doesn’t look bad? This guy is terrible.

      The recruiter’s reputation, and his happiness for that matter, is his responsibility. Not yours.

      Since you said you’re not great at putting your foot down, here are some phrases for you to practice:
      “No, that doesn’t work for me.”
      “No, I’m not interested.”
      “No, I’m not willing to do that.”

      As for what to say to this recruiter, do you still have active applications open with him? It sounds like you do. So I would say, “I’m unhappy with how you handled Company X. I did not agree for you to send them my resume and it’s not appropriate for you to leave me repeated messages pressuring me to interview to make you look good. I’ll continue with the applications I already have in through you with Companies A, B, and C, but except for those I’m no longer interested in working together.”

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