open thread – December 29-30, 2017

by Alison Green on December 29, 2017

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. Now what?*

    I was just let go from work without warning this morning. I’m pretty stunned, I was not expecting this at all.

    I need to find work again immediately – they gave me a last check and claimed they paid out my PTO, but didn’t now that I’m home and actually looking at the check they gave me, and no severance. I unfortunately had gone pretty overboard with Christmas gifts this year because I was so excited to finally have a really “stable” and well-paying job, which is a pretty big life lesson for me right now!

    Anyway, I was at this job for 4 months. My manager seemed very sad to let me go (essentially they have no idea what they want from me or what they want from the position so I’d been having a lot of roadblocks, never got to actually do the things I was hired to do, etc) and said she’d be a reference for me.

    So I’m not sure what to say about this on my resume – do I not list it all and explain in my cover letter or interview why it looks like I haven’t worked since August? If I do list it, how do I credit my “accomplishments?” I did some good things, but nothing that was really tied to the level of projects or work that should have been done for my title.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I’d recommend registering with some local temp agencies for potential short term work just to have some money coming in.

      As for listing the job, do you want to use your manager as a reference? If so, then you kind of have to list it. What was your work history like before this? If you don’t have a history of job hopping, having one short term job might be okay, especially if you can spin it that you were hired for a specific project that never came to fruition.

      1. Natalie*

        And apply for unemployment! It’s not going to be your full paycheck but it’s more than nothing. If you earn something through temping, gig economy stuff, etc, that will usually reduce your unemployment but not by a 1-to-1 margin. That is, if you earn a dollar, your unemployment check for that week is typically reduced by $0.60 or similar.

      2. Anony*

        If you are on good terms with your manager (which it seems you are) you could ask her for advice about listing this position and explaining why you were let go. That has the added advantage of making sure she will be saying the same thing you are when called as a reference.

      3. Anion*

        I am so sorry to hear this, Now What?. That sucks. But I second Amy Santiago’s advice; sign with a temp agency asap. My husband found his (great) temp-to-perm job through one this summer (he is now perm), but even if there’s nothing permanent available it’s a good way to bring in some money and make some connections.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          I third the advice about signing up with a temp agency STAT. There may be some companies looking for seasonal work at the moment, so now would be a good time to get in the door. Try to look for places that do temp-to-hire or direct placements. Good luck.

    2. Happy Lurker*

      I am so sorry to hear this. I don’t have any advice on the accomplishments. I would leave the job off my resume, if there is enough history that it doesn’t raise questions. Best of luck.

    3. KR*

      I would list it until you get a new job, and then after you’ve been at the new job for a while leave it off. Four months is a normal amount of time to be out of work. As for your other questions, maybe some of the other commenters will have better ideas on how to phrase it for your resume. Could you list that the position ended/was eliminated as opposed to you being let go – I think that may sound better and it sounds like your manager might be on board for that. I think after this weekend and you’ve had time to process this you should call up your manager about that and the missing vacation days. I’m sorry – it’s a rotten time to be out of work.

      1. voluptuousfire*

        I agree with this. Keep it on your resume until you find another gig and remove it once you’ve been there awhile. It does sound like you were more laid off/let go than fired, IMO. Hell, it could probably even be spun that you were let go due to a reorganization–letting you go because they don’t know what to do with you.

        Sorry to hear that, but you will get another one.

      2. T3k*

        This. I had a similar situation (let go 6 months into first job after college) so I couldn’t exactly leave it off. After getting only a couple calls, I rewrote my resume to say beside the date like “position eliminated” and I got a lot more calls after making that change.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          I did this too with the first job I had out of college that I was let go from (had nothing to do with performance, they were sad to see me go, and they gave me severance even though I had only been there four months). I don’t include it on my resume at all now.

      3. Natalie*

        This is absolutely a layoff or position elimination. OP, do not say you were fired! In this case wording matters a lot.

    4. LO*

      Wow.

      I am so sorry.
      It seems like such a short amount of time that I wouldn’t include it unless a project you were involved with was a major deal.

      Mostly, I am sorry. I was in a similar position last year and know how you feel.

    5. Teapot Librarian*

      How terrible. I don’t have advice on your resume question, but I am just so sorry that this happened to you.

    6. MissDisplaced*

      I’m sorry, this sucks. Unfortunately, a lot of companies do this at the end-of-year to make their numbers.
      If you were laid off not for any cause (and it doesn’t sound like there is) you will be eligible for unemployment. Use it! At the least, it will give you some cushion for 3 months or so to find something. And I second the temp agencies… Maybe not what you want, but they may have some short-term gigs that pay.

    7. AshK434*

      Omg I’m so sorry to hear this!
      I don’t really have advice about the resume stuff, but please reach out to your employer to check about the PTO

    8. Nita*

      I’m sorry. The timing is pretty awful, not that there’s ever a good time to lose your job. I’d absolutely list it and list whatever accomplishments you can. It’s better than a gap in your resume, especially if you plan to use your manager as a reference. Good luck in your job hunt.

    10. Liane*

      I am so sorry. Since you now know that they didn’t pay out your PTO, you do need to address that with ExJob. You might start with Manager, but you may have to go to Payroll. Since she seems supportive, do talk to Manager to get an agreement on what will be said to reference checkers as well, both by her and HR.
      You need to be very clear on that, preferably in writing, because reference checkers may talk to someone besides Manager. I have a good friend who, years ago, was let go from a job “Because X.” He got a new job quickly–and was fired from it within weeks. They apparently hired and then did reference checks, and guess what? LastJob told NewJob, “We let him go because Y.” I don’t know what X or Y were, but they decided Friend had lied to them and he had no proof otherwise.

    11. Susan K*

      Wow, so sorry this happened to you! I think how you handle your resume depends on a few things. Do you have a lot of previous experience, or is this job the only relevant experience you have (in other words, if you omit this job, would your previous jobs show what skills you have?)? Are there other long gaps on your resume? Is there anything unique about this job that would make your resume stand out (e.g., a prestigious title, company, or project)? Since you were not in this position very long, you wouldn’t be expected to have a long list of accomplishments.

      Can you ask your manager how she will describe your departure? It looks like you were laid off because your position was eliminated. If your manager agrees with that, don’t say you were “let go” because that implies you were fired.

      P.S. If they didn’t pay out your PTO, definitely contact them about that. In some states, they are legally required to pay out your PTO.

    12. Now what?*

      Wow, thank you all so much for your kind replies! I was going to go through and respond to everyone individually, but since I’m feeling a little overwhelmed right now I hope this blanket “Thank you!” counts!!

      I’ve been in the workforce for about 6 years, with a small gap previously where I voluntarily paused working to tend to a family emergency a few years ago. This job was the third company I’ve worked for, and I was promoted several times and had many great accomplishments at my prior two jobs, so I feel good about that representation! This was a more impressive title, but since I was essentially given mostly busy work/completely unrelated work to my field because they didn’t want to do any projects that were actually in my specialty I’m not sure if the title still carries much weight?

      1. Now what?*

        Oh, and yes, they told me I’ll qualify for unemployment so I am filing, and I reached back out to the recruiter I had worked with to find this job (we had kept in touch since I was hired and I had told her my concerns with the flipflopping and contradicting assignments I was getting, so she’ll hopefully understand what’s happened here).

        1. Natalie*

          One great thing about working with a recruiter is that they can fill prospective employers in about your situation without worrying so much about how to word it in a cover letter or what have you. I used a recruiter when my job was being eliminated after approximately a year, and I’m sure it smoothed the path to getting interviews.

    13. Not So NewReader*

      Right in between the holidays, too. I am so sorry. Sending you buckets of good vibes that this set back be very short for you.

    14. Erin*

      Since your former boss offered to be a reference for you I would go ahead and include this on your resume, especially if you have a solid work history behind that (and haven’t only worked at jobs for four monthsish). The good news is that you were laid off without cause, which a reasonable employer isn’t going to hold you accountable for. The fact that they’re offering to be a reference for you is huge. I’d use that.

      And just do your best for the accomplishments. I’m sure there’s something you could include. For instance, at a prior job of mine I literally answered the phones and scanned paperwork – that was it. But I said something on my resume like I completely reorganized their hard copy filing system (which was true), was trusted with sensitive financial information, etc.

      Good luck!

    15. Stellaaaaa*

      List it on your resume because the reference will be valuable to you. It sounds like this might have been one of your first professional jobs? Was it at a small-ish or new-ish business? In my experience, it’s totally common for stuff like this to happen at that type of business. Interviewers understand when you’ve been the victim of a small business’ lack of focus.

      1. Radio Girl*

        I agree with Stella. Small or new businesses are notorious for being unable to plan a straight course or upward trajectory. People know this. I was let go from one, too, but not at Christmas, a month later. It actually turned out to be a happy time for me. The job I lost was stressful.

        I patched together a variety of jobs working for two nonprofits and teaching noncredit classes. Of course, I had no benefits for a while. Temping is a great option.

        There is lots of good advice here. I’m so sorry, thought. Keep us updated.

    16. Gadfly*

      Ask them about tbe PTO. If they said they paided and didn’t, it could just be an error. Just approach it as confusion (“I understood it was being paid but I don’t see it on the check, can you explain?”)

      Best case is they fix it, worst case is nothing changes. Unless they are weird and crazy and resonable questions cause them to have a melt down?

  2. The Cosmic Avenger*

    I can’t get into too many details without risking outing myself, but I put in a very mundane request recently, and the responsible internal department kicked it back to me, stating that I should change something. However, changing that one thing means that we (I) would be overcharging the government…at least, in my take on the policy. They got back to me, but it included a chain of dismissive, sniping emails back and forth.

    I don’t want to make the person who sent it to me feel bad about it, because I know him and actually like him, but I feel like maybe I should state that I don’t like feeling like I’m a bother for trying to get this right when the consequences for getting it wrong could be dire.

    Any recommendations on how to approach it? I’m thinking I might wait until Tuesday and talk to my supervisor, or talk to someone in that department in person, either of which might turn out better than continuing to email back and forth when we seem to kind of be talking past each other.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      If you seem to be talking past in each other in email and it’s not time sensitive, then I would say your best bet is probably to discuss it on the phone or in person.

      1. RabbitRabbit*

        And I find in my line of work that phrasing it as something like “not wanting to trigger an audit by the Feds” or similar wording tends to serve as a reality check. Hold it out there as a “we’re trying to protect ourselves” rather than “I think you are wrong and/or bad.”

      2. neverjaunty*

        Normally I would agree, but when the potential consequences are very serious, it’s critical to keep a paper trail.

        2. Liane*

          You can do both, Alison has recommended that several times. Call him or go by his office and talk it out. Then email him, with any needed CCs/BCCs, “As we discussed this morning, using Form 4F instead of Form A1StK is a problem because XYZ…”

          1. neverjaunty*

            Absolutely, but that’s best for situations where you really have to talk in person. Given the snippiness and having to go up the chain, OP is probably better off keeping everything in writing so there’s no “I never said that!” later.

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      I wouldn’t say you don’t want to be a bother. It’s not personal, it’s not about you, it’s just about the process.

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        Actually, some of the chain that was forwarded was somewhat derisive about the question, and by extension me for having had the nerve to ask it.

          1. The Cosmic Avenger*

            Not at all! I actually know all of them fairly well in person, and like them, so I think the forwarded messages didn’t have my name on it, but then the last person who knew it was me forwarded it back to me without reading the rest of the chain. That’s another reason I don’t want to reply, although I do really want to call them out on it, because I think they’d take it better from me than from most people.

      2. Rat Racer*

        And also about that person, who clearly showed his tush by berating someone over email when the issue you’re championing is about honesty and transparency. He looks bad, not you.

    3. dr_silverware*

      I think you should do both of those approaches, actually. Talk to your supervisor–at least to advise them of what’s going on–and also go in person to that department to explain why you’re taking it so seriously and what the reasoning is for the change they requested.

      My guess is that going in person to the internal department, or at least talking with them on the phone, will be the most effective, but your supervisor should definitely know just in case you’re about to get stuck in a pile of politics.

    4. CM*

      Is the issue resolved? I would separate the issue from the negative communication. Over email, I would be straightforward and focused on the issue: “Here is the request with the changes you asked for,” or “Thanks, here is the original request as we agreed.” And in person, I’d talk to the person who sent the emails to you and say, “Hey, I felt like that email chain got out of hand and want to talk about how we can improve our communication next time.”

    5. The Consultant*

      Are you sure it would be overcharging? We have government contracts and sometimes with the weird accounting they do with overhead costs, etc. it looks fraudulent but it isn’t. If your sure, ignore me, but if not I would suggest asking how the math works instead of automatically assuming you’re being asked to do something wrong. I’m not saying you’re out of bounds here but it might be worth a little more research.

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        I’m not sure, but it would cost the government more to do it the way they asked than the way I calculated it, and I can’t find anything that clearly states to calculate it their way. My way is documenting everything by the book, their way requires a little creative documentation based on how they are interpreting certain rules.

    6. tigerStripes*

      Where I work, once e-mails get bogged down (and if they get snippy), we’re supposed to pick up the phone or go to the office and talk to the other person. I usually dread doing this, but it tends to work.

  3. Jan*

    I’ve talked about this before, but I’m at a new job and I work with another woman who is also training me, “Marsha”. We have to enter data into Access and it can be tricky if there are no numbers for certain entries. Marsha figured out a way to do this, but didn’t tell me. (She played dumb when I asked her.)

    Then, when I figured it out, I was really excited and told her. She faked happiness and I overheard her telling someone later that she was surprised that I figured it out. (Um, thanks.)

    Marsha always bangs on about the importance of “teamwork”, but I’m beginning to think that she doesn’t always practice what she preaches. She’ll also throw me under the bus on things, even though she claims to “have my back.” (My boss was jokingly giving her a hard time about something and she shouted out, “Well, Jan also has the same issue.” ) Ugh.

    Other times she seems to avoid me or wants to get away from me- I try not to bother her too much with questions. She’ll then go off and talk to someone else- it’s hard not to feel hurt.

    She also seems competitive with me and I think just wants a reaction half the time or is bored and just toying with me- I’m getting sick of it! Why can’t we all just be friendly and polite to everyone?

    Any advice?

    1. Jen RO*

      She seems like a lovely person… not.
      I wouldn’t say anything right now… maybe Marsha is the boss’s most favoritest person in the world and you’d end up in more trouble complaining about her. When you are more established and you know you work for a reasonable person, I would raise it with your boss because this behavior is the definition of “not ok”.

    2. Second Lunch*

      I think this is an interesting question because I’m a Marsha. Well, without the throwing others under the bus.

      All I can suggest is that you don’t let her get under your skin. Keep throwing out exceptional work, and hopefully she’ll grow to respect you.

      I have a coworker that I can feel myself getting frustrated with because I feel like answers to questions should be obvious or easy to find. I’m a little bitter because I didn’t have anyone to go to my job, so I had to do research to find answers myself, so I kind of expect others to do the same to be resourceful. Personally, I’ll avoid my Jan if something particularly upset me, so I’ll remove myself from the situation to avoid snapping at my Jan or becoming passive-aggressive.

      If she still doesn’t see you as an exceptional worker that she should respect, don’t worry – others (including your manager) take notice in your great attitude and work ethic.

      1. Jen RO*

        This is interesting… I had the same experience when I first got hired, but it pushed me in the other direction: I tend to over-train people and hold hands too much!

      2. Mike C.*

        You expect others to reinvent the wheel? Come on now, if you never pass on your knowledge you’re just causing others to become bitter like you and you’ll be unable to move onto the next big thing because there’s no one trained to replace you.

        Be the change you want to see.

      3. Pollygrammer*

        Agreed. Thinking you’re in competition with your coworkers is going to lead to a toxic workplace. Unless your coworker is really infringing on your time, what the heck does it matter if she gets her answers from you or from personal experimentation?

        I really think you should rethink your attitude.

      4. neverjaunty*

        Why take your bitterness out on others? Possibly if a predecessor had been less bitter, you wouldn’t have had to do so much on your own.

      5. Rat Racer*

        Ha! Interesting – I am the opposite but for the completely ignoble reason that I like to be useful to people because it makes me feel important. Therefore, I’m inclined to give away all my secret tricks of the trade for the little dopamine burst of “look at this clever thing I have figured out, and will now pass on to you, ta-da!”

      6. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

        Wait, I don’t get it – are you responsible for training this person? Asking questions in Jan’s situation is completely normal and reasonable. Withholding Access data entry tips on principle from the person you’re tasked with training is not reasonable.

      7. Jadelyn*

        I feel like perhaps “I had to suffer in this way, so should you” is not the healthiest approach here? It’s a very common thing – witness the people who resist changing broken systems because “I had to deal with it that way, why should the rest of you get a free pass?” – but it’s not healthy or productive for your relationship with the person or people you’re stymieing out of whatever sense of karmic justice.

        I would be interested to know, what do you actually gain from this? How does resisting sharing your knowledge benefit you, the coworker, your team/department, or the company?

        I sympathize, because in my own work I do often feel like a solution to a problem is self-evident, so why the hell are you asking me? – but that’s me speaking from a position of knowing the system and being very tech-savvy in general. My team is not as tech-savvy as I am, and they don’t use the system as often as I do, so it stands to reason that what’s self-evident to me is not equally self-evident to them. So while I may roll my eyes after I hang up the phone, I still politely hand-hold them through it and try to leave them with enough answers to be able to do it on their own going forward.

        Basically, just be patient with people who know less than you do, all it costs you is a few minutes here and there and maybe a fake smile or two, and it builds goodwill you may need later.

      8. Not So NewReader*

        In doing as was done to us, we become the very people we complain about. This is why it is so hard to break abuse patterns. It’s almost in grained in us to feel the heavy weight of the unfairness of how we were treated. The why-bothers creep in. Why bother being that better person? Why bother helping this stranger who was foisted on me as a cohort?

        The answer is because every time we do Less than what we can do, a part of us dies. Additionally, this dis-ease is contagious. Our actions encourage other people to act in a similar manner.

        In my own personal life for decades, I sincerely believed that life was not about the fairness I received, but rather it was about the fairness I GAVE. I know that can be a long, cold road. BTDT. I can honestly say that in the last ten or so years I have been paid back 100 times over for the times I tried to remain fair when everyone else was in meltdown. The people we extend fairness to are not necessary the ones who pay us back in the future. It is worth our while to be fair as often as possible.

      9. Second Lunch*

        Replying to all to clarify. I have never been horrible to my Jan. I understand where OP’s Marsha might be coming from, but I have never acted out like she has.

        I thought that throwing myself out there as a Marsha could help OP Jan get some insight onto what might be going on with her Jan, which could help their relationship. I actually have a great relationship with my Jan – we chat daily and laugh together. I have a good control over my emotions, but clearly OP Marsha does not.

        I’ll gladly help pass on my knowledge – I don’t withhold knowledge because I do want my team to succeed. My Jan is actually senior to my position and uses the good ol’ “You should do it because you’re better” to avoid tasks instead of learning, which is the source of my bitterness (manager has now put a stop to this). Being new in a job is 100% understandable and I taught a lot to my Jan (without being bitter), but we’re 2 years in now and it’s still happening.

        OP, I think other commenters pinpointed on something key where Marsha probably feels territorial, possibly scared that you’ll outshine her. Again, keep on taking the high road and keep on being your wonderful self. Hopefully, she’ll figure out that you’re not out to get her and she’ll lay off her weird defenses.

        2. Fortitude Jones*

          You’re not a Marsha. You’re dealing with someone who’s purposely being obtuse so she doesn’t have to do the full duties of her job while the Marsha described is purposely not training her despite Jan wanting to do her job. These are very different situations.

    3. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I would not be backstabbing like her, but I would be pleasant and noncommittal, while covering my ass and telling her nothing. That should be enough, because she apparently thinks everyone but her is an idiot and a sucker, so she’ll assume you’re not doing anything she doesn’t know about. For example, when you figure stuff out, tell people who help you, or who you need to know. There’s no reason to share stuff like that with Marsha. If she wants to succeed by backstabbing, let her fail in isolation.

    4. Mike C.*

      CYA. This person is trying to climb up by using your back. Don’t trust this person. I would have asked her in the moment “why are you so surprised”, as I find that things can actually cool down once the plausible deniability goes away. Most reasonable people will realize they can’t get away with that sort of thing and stop.

      As for your own performance, find a niche and do it well. If things get really toxic speak to your boss.

    5. June*

      Oh boy, have I been there!! It’s not fun and I feel for you. I have a few suggestions that have helped me over the years (and will hopefully ease your pain/frustration).
      1. Research, research, research. Find your own answers for the software. This will get Marsha to stop avoiding you. She might see every chat with you as an opportunity for you to ask questions. This would get old for anyone, even if she is your trainer. Bonus – create a training manual for the next person. This will show you as a trainer, not a trainee (even if that is your current status).
      2. She might be jealous if you have a better relationship with your boss/coworkers than her. She might be insecure. She might be competitive. She might be out to cause a negative reaction. Either way, learn to be an expert at your job. Keep the great rapport with your supervisor/coworkers. Later on, when she makes those types of comments, everyone will not put stock in her comments because they know you are the expert at your job/relationships. She will come across as insecure/weak. This is not to make her look bad but to build your reputation above the negative comments.
      3. Make friends outside of the work area (maybe other departments) so when Marsha is in her “don’t want to talk to you” phase, it takes the sting out of the situation.
      4. Read the books, “Nice Girls Don’t Get the Corner Office: Unconscious Mistakes Women Make That Sabotage Their Careers” and “You Are a Badass: How to Stop Doubting Your Greatness and Start Living an Awesome Life “. Both books were life changing for me and I read them annually so I don’t fall back into bad patterns (being too nice, doubting myself, etc.).
      5. Find ways to collaborate with others on projects. If your whole world is Marsha, then her actions have a greater impact on you. Less Marsha = less impact.
      6. Keep being excited about learning something new. It’s important to challenge and grow as an employee (and person). These newly acquired skills will move you up in your career.
      I know it’s hard to rise above the Marsha’s in the world but I have no doubt that you will succeed!

      1. Mockingjay*

        I like the idea of a training manual. It is a great way to help yourself, help others (teamwork!), and completely uninvolves Marsha!

    6. Jadelyn*

      My only real advice on this boils down to, do not trust her. At all. Do not give her a single inch, a single iota of knowledge about you or your work that you haven’t already freely shared with others. She’s made it clear how she deals with coworkers – gossiping, sniping behind one’s back, throwing people under the bus, etc. – so take that for the big neon sign it is and just understand you can’t trust or rely on her. I’d honestly try to work independently as much as possible, build my own documentation for the processes and systems you’re using, and rely on her only in extreme necessity – go to your supervisor first, and if they ask why you aren’t asking Marsha, explain that you feel like she gets frustrated when you ask questions and she doesn’t seem to want to share information openly.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      The only inroad that I know of in situations like this is to figure out what it is like to be Marsha.

      I am thinking that probably the boss treats Marsha like crap. More often this is why we see CYA behaviors like this.
      It could be that Marsha is burned out on jobs/life and believes everyone is out to get her. You may find that the boss is a fine human being who is stuck with Marsha. I had a boss like this. He is in my top three favorite bosses. He had this dingbat of an employee. EVERYONE in the company avoided her. In the end, she started threatening people with a mob hit if they did not do the simplest task on top of the 37 other simple tasks she just asked for. You needed a chain saw to cut through the stress.
      So figure out what it is like to be Marsha.

      Some things that I have done:
      Never ask the same question twice.
      Line up resources where you can find your own answer.
      Take the time at the end of the day to line up what you will do tomorrow. This is a subtle one. You will have the rest of the night and the early morning of the next day to incubate how you will handle these tasks. Down time is powerful stuff. You might leave with a question at night and when you wake up in the morning you realize your answer.

      You might find ways to handle some of Marsha’s hot/cold behaviors. One thing you might try is asking her if you grouped your questions up would that be better? Is there a better time of day to ask questions?
      You can also say things like “I appreciate you answering my questions, I know it gets tiring training people. So I appreciate the effort.” There, now you have opened the door about how it is tiring to train people. So this means you can say, “Have you had enough of questions for the day?” if is it late in the day and she has been ignoring you. It’s a subtle way of calling out the behavior.

      OTH, I might find three instances of where she walked away and did not answer me and I would go to the boss. This person is supposed to be training me and they don’t want to. I would read the three examples to the boss and ask how he wants me to handle that. This is how I found out the boss in the above story wanted to replace Mob Woman but needed to get someone with her level of skill. I was not that person. I could not fix the situation.

  4. Nervous and awkward*

    I’ve been at my job for 3 months and try to be cheerful and friendly to everyone. (I’m shy, so this is difficult for me, but I’m trying!) But there are still a few people who either don’t make eye contact or only talk to others when I leave the room. This makes me feel awkward and uncomfortable- is this a normal reaction to someone new? Or is it me?

    1. BadPlanning*

      It’s probably not you. Sometimes people forget how to let in new people.

      I have people that I’ve worked with for a couple years and when we pass each other in the hallway, they don’t look at me to do at least a “hey” head bob. I think this is just them either being shy or oblivious.

      1. BadPlanning*

        Another idea — is this a high turnover office? Did you replace someone that wasn’t there very long? Sometimes groups feel sort of burned and want to see if you’ll stick around before they invest in getting to know you time (which is silly because you’ll probably drive people away while waiting to see if they’ll stay around).

    2. selina kyle*

      Is it a bigger work place? That seems odd to me (the people who don’t make eye contact – not you!), but I’m pretty outgoing so maybe they’re just shy. I wouldn’t take it personally.

    3. Jen RO*

      Some people are just rude. Some people are just unwilling to spend the energy to get to meet the new person. Some people are just self-absorbed. Most likely it’s not you, it’s them.

      (And keep being friendly! I also struggle with shyness, especially in a new environment, but cultivating relationships has been invaluable in my current job.)

    4. All Hail Queen Sally*

      Sometimes it takes a while for people to warm up to new people in the office. Every person changes the office dynamic a bit, so it just may be that they are waiting to learn more about you and to see how you fit in with them.

    5. Alternative Person*

      I’d say keep doing your best to be cheerful and friendly. There’s any number of reasons why some people are keeping to themselves/their circle so let them do them and focus on doing the best job you can do.

      1. Jen RO*

        I was going to add this to my reply! I realize that sometimes my shyness/social anxiety probably comes across as arrogance. For example, someone new joined a sports team I am part of. She was very good at the sport, while I am mediocre. I felt insecure, so I barely talked to her. Fast forward a couple of years, now we are coworkers and she admitted that she felt left out when she initially joined the team. Of course, she is a lovely person so I didn’t have any reason to feel insecure… but my brain didn’t really care about that!

        1. Not So NewReader*

          OP, this is probably often the case with new people. I have seen it done to me and in a few cases I have been the one doing it. I could have been intimidated by the person. I remember one time where I knew what the person was walking into and I felt so, so sorry for them that I couldn’t find words.
          Getting more work experience in definitely helped me to over come that hurdle.

          Your best bet is to pretend not to notice. This way you don’t paint yourself into a corner where you have to act a certain way or play a certain game. Just pretend you don’t notice and enjoy the people who do talk with you. You are at the 3 month mark, which I tend to think is still a rocky point for relationships at work. I say give it a year before deciding that you have a real problem with anyone. In the meanwhile, treat everyone in a similar manner- be helpful and friendly. And if your company is a decent size, look around and see if you can build a friendly working relationship with different people. Keep building things up.

    7. Pollygrammer*

      Try doing something just a little out of the norm/memorable. Like “howdy” instead of “hi.”

      Extreme story: I had a coworker who was extremely eccentric. When I was new, he pretty much ignored me besides a vague morning “hey” or a head nod. On impulse one day I responded by casually meowing like a cat. He immediately recognized a fellow weirdo and our relationship skyrocketed in terms of warmth.

    8. MissDisplaced*

      Meh. People can be odd and/or feel comfortable with those they know. 3 months isn’t that long really.
      I highly doubt it’s you, and I’d just keep being friendly.

      I’ve been told I’m not a strong eye contact maker. This doesn’t mean I don’t like people, it’s just something I guess I do (I tend to look down a lot–sometimes because I don’t wear my glasses and it’s a blur). Also, sometimes people may not remember your name and might feel awkward to address you.

  5. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    So, I actually have an issue I hope I can discuss here without breaking the “no politics” rule.

    One of my coworkers is…I think, alt-right.

    Usually we don’t know each other’s views, but I have to walk by his desk to get to the break room and see that he often reads the Drudge Report (a really conservative website) on the work computers. One is allowed to use the normal Internet at work, as long as work gets done, so that’s not the issue.

    The issue is I literally have to work next to him and talk to him daily to get things done, and I’m always out at work. Queerness aside, I also don’t conform to gender norms, and I/my car were attacked twice around the time of the election last year. So he frankly scares me, seeing is that website seems to be just as extreme politically as Breitbart, et al. Coworker has been ok to me so far, sticks to work talk, and even seems to be avoiding me by shifting his hours later in the day since I start earlier.

    I guess I’m just anxious, and wonder now whether I should be closeting myself more for safety.

    1. Sparkles*

      Besides looking at that website, has he done anything or vocalized anything to you that concerns you about your well being?

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Ugh. Is it possible he’s doing “opposition research”? I know a few of my (overwhelmingly progressive liberal) friends regularly read up on alt-right sites to know what they’re up to and what arguments they’re trying to bolster as a group. The shifting of hours might indicate that that’s not the case…or it could be coincidence based on some outside factor.

      Above all, please do stay safe! I guess as long as you stick to being civil and business-like, you can hope that you might make him a little more accepting just by humanizing us to him.

      1. Pineapple Incident*

        Seconding the possibility of opposition research, because I’m SUPER liberal and not that obvious about it at work- I suppose someone could walk up behind me while I have a similar website up to fact-check things and formulate a response if I hear that kind of stuff in public. I don’t know what it’s like to be in your shoes, but I do sympathize with wigging out at cues like these when you’ve been through the experiences you have – I’m sorry you’ve had to go through that, by the way (internet hugs).

        There could be loads of reasons why someone shifts their hours later (my SO has found that he operates better in the latter half of the day, and chose to work the later shift at his previous job, for example) or is on the quiet/avoidant side (again my SO is my example for everything- he is much more reserved at work than he is at home, and prefers not to have even work-level friendships).

        1. TardyTardis*

          Every once in a while I make a strafing run through Breitbart because it feels like fun, though it does throw me off to see Klan members trying to recruit in the comments (so not joking!). But I want to inform myself on what is going on with that part of the population and not isolate myself in my own bubble.

    3. RubyMendez*

      I hope it’s okay to jump in and say that I’m sympathetic — this is really hard. I’m glad this colleague at least sticks to work talk and is okay to you so far. How is the work environment in general? How is the management? Is this colleague at the same level/pay grade as you vs. being your supervisor?

      1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

        Work environment is good, although pay could be better! Management is pretty approachable and politically liberal (one complimented my “nevertheless, she persisted” shirt), with strong discrimination protections. I live in a state that protects gay and trans people from work discrimination.

        The colleague and I are at the same level.

    4. Rachel*

      If I were you, I’d definitely write out my feelings and try to determine what is actually happening. You wrote that he sticks to work talk and isn’t trying to spend more work time with you. Sticking to facts, rather than trying to imagine what he believes (and how he might act on it) might help bring down the anxiety.

      FWIW, I don’t consider Drudge Report the same category as Breitbart. Breitbart actively posts hateful articles, where Drudge Report – while conservative – is more of an aggregation website rather than editorial. I saw a lot of mainstream sources linked over alt-right websites. I’m not sure if that makes you feel better.

      1. Christy*

        Strong agree on Drudge. I don’t read it, but my dad does, and he’s far more of a Ron Paul guy than a Trump or Bannon guy. I would put it as conservative, for sure, but I wouldn’t class it as alt-right at all.

        1. Grace*

          It’s really more a compendium of quick links to lots of media and news sites. I wouldn’t be too quick to assume the co-worker is on Stormfront because he’s using Drudge to get to the NYPost horoscope.

    5. selina kyle*

      Ack ack that’s scary. Sending comfort across the internet to you for what it’s worth.
      Was your car/you attacked at work? (I’m so sorry it happened at all but if it happened at work that’s another level of stress)
      I would say just avoid him as best you can (without hurting either of your work/jobs) but also keep an eye out/record anything he says/does that is HR worthy.

      1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

        The first time, I was on a break at work, and was walking to a nearby bodega. Two guys in Trump gear shoved me, and I spent the afternoon picking gravel out of my palms.

        The other time, it was at home. Apartment and I park outside.

        2. KatyO*

          So, nobody at work has attacked you or made any negative comments? Honestly, I’d say you’re overreacting but I’ve not seen how you 2 interact so maybe I’m wrong. You don’t want folks to stereotype you but sounds like you’re doing that to others.

      2. Melanie*

        Avoid him as best you can and keep an eye out/record anything you can use to go to HR about him? Are you serious? Poor guy is allowed to have conservative political viewpoints and you are acting like he’s Hitler! Also actively trying to record any little thing he does to try and get him in trouble with HR is pretty crummy. Sounds like YOU have a serious problem with anyone who doesn’t fit in with your beliefs.

        1. Liane*

          And I think you are out of line. Starting with the Hitler thing. Alison expects us to be civil. Go read the commenting rules–the link is right above every Reply/Comment box.

        2. selina kyle*

          Thanks for asking – I am very serious! I think it’s a bit harsh to say I imply he’s “like Hitler”, but I do think that avoiding spending time with someone who doesn’t value queer people as people as best you can is a healthy practice for us queer folks. It’s not a matter of different political views, it’s a matter of ‘does this person view me as evil/bad/gross for a facet of my being that is beyond my control’. As to recording for HR, I meant that in reference to if the attack incidents had occurred at work. But I can see how that was unclear, so I apologize for that.

        3. Not William Buckley*

          +1 to Melanie. This co-worker has done ZERO that is “HR worthy.” You’re allowed to read conservative websites.

        4. Health Insurance Nerd*

          While this comment comes off as unnecessarily harsh, I agree with the context of what you’re saying. Aside from seeing this coworker on a website that promotes views outside of their own, it doesn’t seem that the original commenter has any issues with him. People are entitled to their beliefs, whether you agree or not. It would be one thing if this person were actively speaking out against issues of equality (gender, gay marriage, etc…), but it doesn’t sound as though that is happening here.

          1. Anony*

            I agree. Reading a website or article does not constitute an endorsement of the views expressed in the article. If he makes the OP uncomfortable, for any reason, then avoiding him when possible seems like a good call. But anything else is premature.

    6. bunniferous*

      That website is an aggregate for a lot of links. Unless I am missing something (and I could be, granted) I do not think that would be a marker for alt right unless you had other concerns regarding this worker. I mean, I go straight there when I hear a celebrity died because they are quick to confirm if true. And I am politically unaffiliated.

      I get why you feel nervous but if he is respectful to you and does not show any other signs I would give him the benefit of the doubt for now.

    7. Todd*

      seriously? You are fearful because someone is politically opposite of you? Here is a reality check. Most conservative people(myself included) don’t attack people.

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        Here is a rules check: “please be kind to fellow commenters”. overcaffienatedandqueer said they have been physically attacked because of their presentation, so it’s not an unreasonable fear, and even if it was, it would still not warrant that kind of derision.

        2. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

          Thanks! Also, this summer, a conservative group spread “stop the [homophobic slur]s flyers with awful misinformation about how diseased we are and what bad parents we are, in my own neighborhood. And alt-right meeting flyers on a nearby college campus. There’s a lot going on around here.

          1. Safetykats*

            It seems like the world is becoming a scarier place. I can’t decide if at least some of that is just in my head, but I do think that people who are basically intolerant feel like they can say and do more than they could a year ago. I’m fortunate enough to see only a little of that, but I have friends who are not so fortunate.

            I think there’s not much you can do about a coworker who might have really objectionable beliefs but keeps them to himself.

            I hope you can find the confidence and courage to remain publicly the person that you are. I think the world gets smaller and sadder every time we decide we have to hide ourselves to fit in or to be safe.

            I also hope you have some good support elsewhere at work. If so, maybe some of those people could give you a read on what to think about your coworker.

            And I’m very sorry you’re in this situation. Nobody should have to be afraid in their home or workplace – or anywhere. It’s easy to tell from the comments who haa never has to be afraid simply because of who they are. Some of us do understand.

        3. Not William Buckley*

          Not to put a fine point on it, but labeling anyone who reads a conservative website a potential attacker isn’t exactly “being kind to fellow commentators.” Lots of people on this site are probably conservative. Others may be liberal but sometimes read conservative media.

          1. Louise*

            I don’t think that is what OP is doing. OP is in a marginalized group and has physically been attacked for being in that group, and is now anxious that someone in their workplace might share the belief that queer folks don’t deserve the same rights as everyone else. And it may be that coworker doesn’t share those beliefs, but I think it’s a stretch to say that someone who has been assaulted and is now anxious about their situation and wants advice on handling it professionally is saying “all people who read this website are potential attackers.”

        1. Todd*

          Unless the alt-right website viewer was one of the attackers, I’d say the number of times isn’t really relevant. If I was mugged twice and both times the mugger was black would I then have just cause to fear all black people? Come on people, be adults. Unless this “alt-right website viewer” has done or said something to you that’s derogatory you are the one being the fascist.

          1. Aunt Vixen*

            If you were mugged twice and both times the mugger was someone who had chosen to be in a gang, and then you started feeling like maybe a co-worker was showing signs of making a similar choice, it would not be unreasonable to be a little apprehensive around that co-worker.

            There, I cleaned up your false equivalency for you.

            1. TL -*

              There’s a huge difference between being in a gang and holding or consuming conservative/right-wing political views (and plenty of people are socially liberal and fiscally conservative or vice-versa.)

              He was not reading neo-Nazi or Westboro type websites, which would be infinitely more concerning for coworkers and a better fit for you “fixed” analogy. He just has an interest in right-wing political views and the good sense to not talk about politics at work.

          2. The Cosmic Avenger*

            Did you seriously just make an equivalency between a person’s skin color, and the belief that people of certain races, religions, and sexual orientations are less than human? We don’t know that he believes that, but she has reason to be concerned. All of us who are in some kind of marginalized group have reason to be concerned, as hate crimes have spiked by 20% in the last year, and of course those who have the luxury of never having been marginalized think there is nothing to fear.

          3. Louise*

            Calling someone who is reaching out for advice on how to handle a situation professionally when they’re feeling anxious about their safety a “fascist” is inflammatory and goes against the ethos of this community. I would recommend taking a look at how we like to conduct ourselves here. It certainly does not involve attacking people asking for help because you don’t think their situation warrants it.

          4. Jonny*

            Todd is absolutely right. And if the only thing bothering you is that he’s reading a website you don’t agree with, I think you are WAY overreacting. I’m sorry you were attacked, but this guy has given you zero reason to believe he’d actually hurt you. If he’d wanted to make a disparaging remark, he’s had plenty of opportunity to do so- but he hasn’t. Last time I checked, this is still a free country and people have the right to read what they want. And it’s not like he’s reading Men Kampf. Seriously, chill out a bit. There’s no need for you to be afraid at work. You’ll make yourself crazy if you focus on a non-issue like this.

      3. Louise*

        I think there’s a difference between being politically opposite and consuming media that promotes/condones violence or hate against a group of people. And overcaffeinatedandqueer says they’ve been physically assaulted and had their property vandalized because of how they present, so I don’t think we should judge whether or not they have a “right” to be fearful (people get to have their feelings, whether or not you believe it to be justified). I don’t think it’s helpful to shame someone looking for guidance on how to handle a stressful situation.

    8. Lehigh*

      If this is the only thing that makes you think he might be alt-right, I would try not to worry too much. Some “regular” conservative people read the Drudge Report. TBH I’m not super familiar with it, but if it is far-right he might not realize just how far-right it is. Sometimes there’s this information divide between the left and right in the US which can lead to people reading far more extreme sources than those that would reflect their actual views.

      1. Archie Goodwin*

        Yeah. If all he does is read Drudge, I wouldn’t worry. I’m fairly conservative myself, and while I don’t tend to read it myself it doesn’t strike me as being in the same league as Breitbart. (Though to be fair, I tend to read very little of either…in fact, I don’t think I’ve visited either one in years.)

        As long as he remains civil to you at work, I wouldn’t be concerned. Should that begin to change, then I might take steps to mitigate, but not until then.

        1. Artemesia*

          I am liberal but regularly read right wing outlets; you gotta know what people are hearing and seeing to understand the world we currently live in. I read the NY Post daily and have used the Drudge report as a site to access multiple other conservative sites (although it pains me to use that description since there is nothing ‘conserving’ about most of their policies.

    9. OlympiasEpiriot*

      Do what you have to to feel safe. I understand how that could make one feel really ill at ease.

      Personally, (and, truth-in-advertising, I’m *not* queer and I’m gender-conforming to look at, although my behaviour is nothing like that, so this is all fwiw) I’d think that it was too late to go back into any closet. I’m pretty quick on the physical reactions, even at my age, which gives me a thick layer of bravado to my interactions with potentially scary people. Would it make you feel more secure to take up a martial art? Depending on where you are, you may have access to a wide variety.

      I think it is possible that Cosmic Avenger could be right about opposition research. It is also possible he fancies himself secretly some powerful edgelord. As long as he stays courteous and professional with you, this is good.

    10. Brigitha*

      You have my sympathy. It can be hard to determine danger levels in this situation, and in this climate it’s understandable that something like this would send up a red flag. It’s kind of like a woman determining if an overly friendly colleague will become a little harass-ey. Most of the time no, but you can’t help but put up defenses if you get an uneasy feeling.

      If you have the spoons, and generally feel like others around you are supportive, please don’t closet yourself because of this one thing/person. Being yourself, a kind, hard-working queer person, and not letting this guy’s possible judgement of you affect you is the best thing you could do, imho.

      If you feel like you need to put up a tiny defense, I’ve found that becoming scrupulously polite and professional around people who get my back up makes me feel like I have a little more personal power in a situation.

      And if you have the extra cash, get you a little spy cam for your car.

    11. Kuododi*

      Oh my… I’m sending warm thoughts to you. I’m much more liberal leaning than the typical person in my line of work. The closest experience I had to what you are describing was a few years ago with a psychiatrist I consulted with on a regular basis at my job regarding client medication needs. I would from time to time come in his office and see political and religiously very conservative website on his computer. (This was a few years ago before issues in society had become so….heated?) I decided to not address the websites at all and just stick to business. He turned out to be a phenomenal MD- very compassionate and knowledgeable- an excellent resource and mentor and was a reference for me after I left that mental health center. I wish you good luck and a clear head in your decision making process.

    12. Sled dog mama*

      Do you have a trusted person (or persons) at work (same company or building) who could go with you when you are walking to the store or to your car to at least feel physically safer? And to have a witness if someone attacks you again?

    13. Kate*

      My 80 year old FIL reads Drudge, brietbart, and has Fox News blaring 24/7. He would never harm you, but he might irritate you at dinner conversation.

      My aunt re-posts all kinds of horrific Facebook memes- really vulgar things about how straight, white US citizens are superior to others. But she wouldn’t raise a finger toward you (worst case she’d talk about you behind your back but…she seems to love her queer niece and nephew just fine!)

      Just examples to say that unless you have some other evidence, you shouldn’t have to live in fear of physical attack.

      1. Brigitha*

        I don’t know about this. What evidence do you think would be acceptable point at which to worry? Most often, a person isn’t a threat until they are actually assaulting you … and then we look back and wonder if we missed any red flags. I don’t think it’s abad idea to follow your instinct and protect yourself when you have an uneasy feeling.

        1. Archie Goodwin*

          If I may jump in…I think the question I would ask is, rather, “what is the evidence and what does it tell me?”

          Because to me, that’s the more critical thing here. If overcaffeinatedandqueer had said “I see him reading Breitbart” or…some other site (drawing a blank on which one it might be), then my answer here might have been different. Something along the lines of, “if that’s all he’s doing, then it’s probably nothing, but even so you’re wise to remain alert”. I don’t tend to view Drudge as being nearly as much of a red flag…which is why I’d say that, if all he’s doing is reading Drudge, then it’s probably nothing.

      2. Brigitha*

        And just to be clear, I’m not arguing about your assessment of you family members. I’m sure you know them better than any of us. Just like I’m sure overcaffeinatedandqueer knows his coworker better than any of us.

      3. Louise*

        I don’t think #notallconservatives is particularly helpful here. We’re not here to judge OPs feelings, we’re here to help them navigate a sticky professional situation.

    14. Not So NewReader*

      This is just general approach type stuff.
      Fear often comes from what we don’t know. I am very sorry about the crimes committed against you, I was robbed once and scared out of my mind, I cannot imagine what I would be like in your shoes. It’s scary stuff.

      I assume you went to the police on this stuff. I hope you did. Can you call periodically and see if they figured out who did these things to you?
      Going the opposite way, how is your personal security? Do you carry a phone with you at all times? Do you use a buddy system where it makes sense? It might be time to install an extra lock on your home. This is one of these times where we have to take care of some basic stuff so that we feel more secure.

      Yes, this general stuff matters. When we know we are taking steps to protect ourselves we tend to help ourselves remain calm and remain sharp. A calmer mind can better assess how much concern a given situation or person actually is.
      In short what I am driving at is to use that worry about your coworker to assess everything around you and beef up your own safety. This is an on-going thing, too. Technology changes, the world changes and there is always something we can add to our personal safety plan. This is just general advice that I would give to anyone who has any concern.

    15. LQ*

      I have a coworker who is …Alex Jones level. A few things came up in meetings while we were waiting for everyone to show up or waiting for the projector to connect or whatever. I tried to shut it down pretty hard but I wasn’t successful. I had a pretty bad one where I basically said, hey knock it off we need to talk about work that’s not appropriate. One of his direct coworkers basically said I feel the same way but I don’t talk about it at work dude knock it off. He has knocked it off since and doesn’t talk about it.

      I don’t like having to work with him, but he does a fine job and as long as he doesn’t go off on an infowars rant in a meeting again I know that it’s likely better that I work with him as deeply uncomfortable as it is. I keep an eye open for some of the more insidious things that might happen that I’m concerned about. I don’t think he’s (or your guy is) likely to go onto physical violence.

      I hope that by being visible I become more of a person and less of a caricature.
      This all said, I trust that my workplace, my boss, will 100% stand behind me if something happens and he crosses a line. (I already talked to my boss who said if it was a big deal he’d see about having this guy removed from the team I’m on. I said I would wait and see if it comes up again or if him hearing from someone he considers a peer (and yes, read ALL the problematic things into that) shut him down he would stop, and he has.) If my workplace wasn’t I might behave differently.

      (Just giving you my perspective on this from being in a similarish situation at work, I also feel safer at home I’m in a very liberal immediate area. Safety is critical. If you don’t feel safe that matters a lot.)

    16. Myrin*

      I think the difficulty with situations like the one you describe is that they can be indicative of basically nothing, of basically everything, and, somewhat weirdly, of a rather large spectrum inbetween.

      What I mean is this: Reading this website could be
      1. indicative of basically nothing: He might be interested in politics in general and likes to be informed on all kinds of matters and read different viewpoints; he could have someone he knows writing for that website and be on the lookout for any shenanigans by them; he could be passionately hate-reading the site (yes, that is indeed a thing. It seems to be a bit like an addiction form what I’ve heard); etc.
      2. indicative of basically everything: He’s a die-hard nazi and his reading that website is just one symptom of that.
      3. indicative of a spectrum inbetween: Now here I need to admit that I don’t know that website at all (I’m not in the US) and don’t particularly feel like checking it out but some other comments said it’s some kind of links storage more than anything else? But even without that, he might be conservatively-leaning but not have any problems with queer people in particular; he might also be like a surprisingly big number of people I know who, somewhat strangely, keep saying “X people are weird” but then continue on to be perfectly nice and pleasant to X people, like a strange inverse of what you’d generally expect; etc.

      What I mean by all of that is: You probably can’t glean a lot from the sole fact of his often reading this website. I don’t want to tell you to think the worst of and fear him but I don’t want to tell you to just handwave it away and ignore it, either. I personally think that, since you say you work somewhat closely with him and have been doing so for some time, had he wanted to actively harm you, it probably would’ve happened by now or at least you’d have more to go on to think that than just his visits of a certain website. But that’s just me and I absolutely don’t want to downplay your feelings or quench your instincts – after all, I could be totally wrong in my assessment!

      But do keep an eye out – if he says or does other stuff of the alt-right variety, remember it! You don’t want to be blindsided in case my point 2 above is true. On the other hand, if he is kind and considerate to you, remember that, as well! Finding out that point 1 or even 3 is true may put you at ease infinitely!

      As for the closeting question – I’m not sure if you’re refering to your coworker or your broader situation, so I’ll comment on both. With regards to your coworker, I think that ship has sailed anyway, so there’s not much to do there, if you ask me. In general: Do what you feel you need to do do feel safe and comfortable. I personally don’t feel that the closet is a nice place to be and I wouldn’t ever want to go back (although my situation is admittedly different from yours in that I’m cis and also straight-passing) but that really is a very individual decision.

      I wish you (and you wife, btw, who I remember had health issues) all the best – I’ll be thinking of you!

      1. Hrovitnir*

        I think this is a really great comment. Sending you what internet support I can, overcaffeinatedandqueer.

      2. Lissa*

        Love this comment, Myrin! I am a “1”. I am a political moderate (would prob. be liberal in the USA I think) and I like to read all kinds of things, including extremes on both sides, and I really don’t think it’s #notallconservatives, to make this point. It’s more that currently I think not enough evidence exists.

        I mean I kinda get it though. A few months ago a guy friend of mine “liked” on Facebook a few …questionable MRA-ish articles, and I cringed pretty badly. I considered saying something to him about it but thought it would be really dumb to say “oh you liked this thing on Facebook, now we’ve gotta talk about it.” We did end up having a discussion a couple months after that that touched on it, and from what i can tell he’s not an MRA and I enjoyed the discussion, but it still raised my eyebrows pretty hard!

    17. Circus peanuts*

      When other people ask about situations like this, the book The Gift of Fear, is often recommended. I haven’t read the book myself, but I thought I would put it out there. Jmo, I would be a little cautious. Treat the guy professionally of course but keep your eyes open.

    18. TL -*

      I would not assume him shifting his work hours is about you, honestly. That’s a big leap for a relatively common decision- you’re probably not that important to him. It sounds like he’s perfectly pleasant to work with and respectful/professional to you. If that changes, of course talk to your boss/HR (without mentioning the website.)
      Otherwise, it sounds like he’s probably not someone you’d want to grab a friendly coffee or drinks with, if conservative views are a deal-breaker to you, but it also sounds like you weren’t doing that anyways.

    19. Fear is Ok*

      Two key terms here.

      1. “I think.” You don’t know. Yeah, he’s looking at a website… but what does that mean? Maybe he eats up every word of it, maybe he just likes the site, maybe he was randomly sent a link to it one day and looks it up, maybe, maybe, maybe. You don’t want him to judge you, maybe start by not judging him right away.

      2. “He’s ok to me and sticks to work talk.” Great. That’s really some ideal stuff. You don’t need to be BFF’s with everyone at work. You don’t even have to like everyone at work. One of my best co-workers was one that never brought in drama. We stuck to work talk, we got work done. Sometimes we still don’t talk. It’s wonderful.

      Look, you’re right to be scared. Unfortunately, a very scary world has been created for you. If I were in your shoes, I’d be on my toes all the time, too. I’m not blaming you for your mind going right to this. But let’s say he is Alt-Right. He is treating you like a co-worker… be the best co-worker he’s ever had. Be yourself around him, don’t walk on eggshells. Show him that if he is Alt-Right, he’s wrong. It’s really easy to hate faceless group of people. It’s harder to hate a person. (obviously, you should still be careful, and keep that guard up… but use this opportunity.)

      The problem is that if you do start logging every interaction or treating him anything other than a co-worker while he is treating you like a co-worker, YOU become the problem. If he’s doing his job, and leaving you alone, then there’s nothing you can do. What’s the end result, you get him fired? So then, even if he’s Alt-Right then he has his story he gets to go back to his Alt-Right buddies and tell… I got fired because of this vendetta when I didn’t do anything?

      Truth is, you aren’t going to like what all of your co-workers do. But right now on the side of you having to worry you have… a website. On the side of not worrying, you have a co-worker who is treating you like a co-worker. Don’t jump to conclusions. Treat him with the respect you want him to treat you with. If there’s a real problem, go to HR. Keep your guard up.

    20. So not using my regular name for this*

      I keep writing posts and then deleting them for this. Especially after Myrin’s excellent post. But I want to speak to the conservative people on here who seem appalled by the idea that someone who appears conservative and reads The Drudge might be a threat. I am sure it is because you are all nice people who would never even think about behaving badly due to bigotry.
      That might have been me 12 years ago, I was a middle-aged, middle class, Talbots wearing, straight, white woman. Then I fell for a man who was not white. The Loving Case was over about the time I was born. But still even now I have seen so much crap as his wife, I can’t even begin to list it, from overly rigid rules enforcement (that only happen when he is with me) to slurs to outright threats of violence.
      Yes, there are big difference between conservatives, bigots, and bigots who like to hurt people of the wrong whatever. However, in my experience, most people in all three groups self identify as conservative and read the Drudge Report. It is only after a harm has been done that an outsider knows who is who.
      I wear my seatbelt every time I get in the car, not because I expect to have an accident every day, but because the consequences of not having a seatbelt on if an accident occurs are so severe. I am watchful around strangers, especially conservatives, for the same reason.

      To Overcafinatedandqueer, I suggest that hoping for the best while preparing for the worst is a good plan.
      At work, be pleasantly professional, follow all best pratices, document everything, back up everything, never leave your logged on computer unattended, use good password hygiene, check your bag and coat pockets every time you take it out of the building.
      Outside of work, take a self defense class, get a law enforcement officer to do a home safety in section, get a home security system, and pay to park in secured or escorted lots.
      I don’t feel like the best qualified person to speak about being closeted. Other than to say ideally you shouldn’t have to be closeted anywhere.

    21. Todd*

      While some of the responses here have gone off the rails I think the bottom line here is that you have
      a coworker who has never been anything but cordial to you, works with you.

      If you are scared of him, that’s a you issue, not a him issue. (because he hasn’t done anything, you said that)
      Your being “triggered” by you suspecting his politics is again a you problem, not a him problem.

      I suspect your history of being attacked is clouding your judgement and that you do need to talk to someone about it, just not HR.

      1. Jonny*

        Another excellent comment by Todd, especially the clouded judgement part. I’m starting to feel bad for your coworker – please don’t get him in trouble or cause people to think badly of him when he’s been nothing but nice to you.

        1. CorruptedbyCoffee*

          I don’t think anyone’s really suggested she “get him in trouble.” Let’s not make this more than it is, on BOTH sides.

  6. Mouse*

    I got a new job! I’m going to be an executive assistant. I’ve been working with the company for a while now and have good relationships with the executives, but I’ve never been in this kind of role before, and these executives have never had an assistant before. So, my questions:
    -Assistants: What are your tips and tricks to being great at what you do?
    -People with assistants: What do they do that you love? What do you wish they would do? What makes a great assistant?

    Thanks everyone!

    1. EA*

      I use to be an EA, and I think it’s a tough job. It’s also tough that the execs won’t know what to expect.
      On your first day, I would have a list of possible things you can do:
      -Calendar (get their calendar’s access your first day)
      -Travel
      -Proofread/Presentations
      -Meeting Prep
      -Special Projects
      Ask about their preferences. How do they want to communicate with you? How frequently? What are you authorized to do on your own? What do they see you working on?
      I would say to be a good EA, you need to learn to anticipate needs (does your exec have a conflict on his calendar in 2 months? Take care of it proactively; Does he need materials printed for a meeting? Do it without being asked). You have to kind of get in there to see what needs you can anticipate. Most of my execs were jerks, so learning not to take it personally, and learning what I could control was important.

      1. Real Estate EA*

        I think EA is right. It’s critical to sit down and chat with each person you’ll be supporting to determine their preferences. They may not feel comfortable with you having access to their calendars (my VP doesn’t), but would prefer instead if you helped them with travel/expenses. Some execs are more self-sufficient than others.

        Speaking of calendars, be sure to keep their calendar appointments confidential, too (even from each other, unless explicitly told otherwise). If someone asks, “Where is Donna?”, don’t tell them, “She’s meeting with So-and-So”. I’ve learned to say something like, “She’s not available right now. Did you need to schedule some time with her?” My exec team is fiercely protective of their time and calendars and are not comfortable with others knowing their schedules, even their boss.

        I’ve read some advice elsewhere on this blog, too, about sitting down with them and asking how success in the position looks to each individual. Some execs might need you to help with managing projects, some execs might not. It just depends and it’s good to know where each person stands.

        Congratulations and good luck!

    2. KR*

      Former assistant: one thing I tried to do was look for mundane and routine parts of my managers job that I could easily do and offer to take them over. If they needed his signature I would do all the work and leave them there for his approval.

    3. Neosmom*

      Many congratulations. On to the tips:
      Be professional and helpful with everyone.
      If you are on a critical deadline for your boss and someone asks you for something, gently let them know “not now” plus when you can help them.
      Learn as much as you can about what new boss does so you can anticipate needs and help new boss become more efficient.
      Write a “bible” (or add to the one your predecessor prepared) so you learn and document various aspects of your job (I am not a coffee drinker, but how to use the coffee machine is in my “bible”).
      Keep a small sewing kit at your desk – needles, threads, shirt buttons, safety pins, plus a Tide stick – for emergencies.

      1. Pineapple Incident*

        Seconding the “bible” – I wrote one as a secretary in a hospital clinical unit at ExJob, not as an EA, but the same concepts applied. The one I wrote had step-by-step directions for everything and was definitely useful- especially for things we didn’t do often but were a real pain if we forgot about. Got a tub full of dead batteries that need recycling? I had the number for the guy who handled the pick up. Have a patient whose family needed to mail something and be picked up that day? My “bible” had the locations of the mail drop boxes in the hospital and the pickup times for each one. My unit ended up using it to train my replacement since she was hired after my notice was up.

        Being able to anticipate needs, as EA indicated above, was huge as well- the people I supported liked knowing I would have the phone number to any department they needed on hand (I eventually had the list memorized), and be able to find/reorder obscure supplies we didn’t order very often.

    4. DivineMissL*

      Congratulations, Mouse! Longtime EA here. Just some tips –
      — Your job is to make your boss’s job easier. If you have the time, you can take on small tasks to free up your boss’s time for the bigger tasks.
      — It’s great if you can make your boss look good, or keep her informed when you know about things going on that she should know about. You don’t want her to be surprised or caught off-guard if she doesn’t know something; you are her eyes and ears.
      — Remember that everything you see and hear in that office is confidential. You always want your boss to know she can trust you, that you won’t share information with co-workers (and believe me, they will try to get it out of you).
      — It sounds like you’re going to be working for several executives, not just one. Sometimes more than one of them will be asking you to do tasks at the same time. I used to work for a VP plus 4 directors; the VP’s work generally took priority. If I had multiple work requests at once, I would usually ask them to discuss the priority order among themselves and let me know what they had decided. Once you have them “trained”, the work will start to fall into place.
      Best of luck to you!

    5. Assisting takes a lot of pre-planning*

      Every single day, I pull open all the calendars I monitor and go through them looking for conflicts or things that can be fixed before it ever becomes a problem. I go out at least 2 weeks every day (calendars change daily) and up to 1 month. I use this time to put reminders on my calendar – order lunch, send out agendas, etc.

      You want to be able to answer questions before they’re even asked, supply materials that are needed before your supports know they need them. I never answer, I don’t know – instead, let me find out for you. It’s my job to smooth the path and make their lives as easy as possible so they can focus on their jobs.

      If you find out things that you think they should know, tell them! You never want the person you support to be blindsided. If you see a meet and greet on their calendar, get the resume/CV/bio sketch so your support is prepped for the meeting. It makes you look good if the person you support looks good. If you are looking ahead on the calendars, you can almost always anticipate what is needed for particular meetings. Especially once you get to know your support better.

      I recommend keeping a preferences file. You can note any allergies, travel preferences, etc. for each person you support and also the people they often interact with. Remember, anyone can schedule meetings and make folders, what makes you stand out is the ability to know what they’ll need before they need it and the ability to go with the flow. The best administrative support people aren’t easily flustered by things not going right. Have a plan B and know learn how to pivot to the plan B quickly and without panicking.

    6. Happy Lurker*

      All great advice above. If this is a repeat, sorry. Get their personal contacts. Right away. Spouse, kids and ages, parents, siblings. Then their biggest clients. That way when they are in a meeting or whatever and need to be interrupted you already know who is important. Also, the first time the spouse contacts you you will not feel awkward asking who they are, etc.

      1. Artemesia*

        And explicitly find out who can interrupt them. Does she want to be interrupted by any call from the spouse or child? Or only under certain circumstances? The boss? etc.

  7. Corky's wife Bonnie*

    Well, working while pretty sick (bronchitis after having the flu 3 weeks ago) and there’s a skeleton crew here. So, I need something to cheer me up. What are some of the unusual cubicle/office decorations you’ve seen at your past or present places of employment? Doesn’t have to be holiday (or can be, whatever).

    2. Teapot Librarian*

      I had a pet frog at my desk at my last job. Not sure if a living creature counts as a “decoration” though :-)

      1. hermit crab*

        I had two pet frogs at my desk for a while, in a previous office! They were getting rather up in years when I transferred to another location and I didn’t want to stress them out with the move, so one of my coworkers adopted them when I left. They were a lot of fun and seemed to do well in the office environment!

    4. All Hail Queen Sally*

      I once had a co-worker that kept a book of crime scene photographs on her desk– thankfully the pictures were all in black and white so they didn’t seem so gory.

    5. NoMoreMrFixit*

      One place I worked at as a programmer there was a Jolly Roger hanging on the wall above one person’s desk and a tribble sitting on the top of another person’s monitor. The manager there was the best boss I had in my entire career.

    6. AwkwardKaterpillar*

      Before I started, but I saw pictures, they used to do a holiday decorating event at my work – dept to dept. Apparently the dept I am currently in decided to go with a “redneck Christmas” theme, which included toilet seats being used as décor.

      We no longer hold this event.

    7. Yetanotherjennifer*

      My yearly calendar used to have pictures of porches and I saved my favorites for cube decorations. On a stressful day I’d take mini breaks by picking a porch and imagining myself there.

    8. Pollygrammer*

      Something silly–one of those little battery operated robot fish tanks, maybe.

      A pillow, or something else to make your chair as comfy as possible.

      And plants! Amazing how much better plants can make you feel.

    9. Brigitha*

      I used to work for one of the largest corporate hog farm companies in the Midwest (in the admin/accounting building). Everyone had at least one stuffed pig in their cubical. Many people had multiple little piggies, and pigs were a common decorative theme in thank yous and awards.

    10. Red Reader*

      I’ve worked for hospitals for the last 15 years, and I have a plushy MRSA who always lives on my desk. He has a cape, because he’s a SUPERBUG!

      I also have kakamora (the little coconut pirate guys from Moana) sitting on top of each of my monitors.

      3. Kuododi*

        Ooh!!!Reminds me of quite a few years ago when the drug reps for a well known anti-psychotic medication would come through. One of their marketing knick knacks was a bright purple squishy foam model of a brain you could use as a stress ball. Very popular among the staff when the rep came through!!!

      4. Jemima Bond*

        I got my dad (a retired chemistry teacher) a plush penecillin for Christmas. He ADORES it. He named it, carried it around in the breast pocket of his shirt all day and in the evening made his new friend a home sitting in a crystal port glass – very carefully considered so he could see out (he has little eyes, for the cuteness).

      5. valc2323*

        I work in a place where almost everyone has a collection of stuffed microbes. My favorite is regular staph aureus (flesh-eating bug) because of the embroidered knife and fork.

        For cube decorations, a friend had a “snowflake a day” calendar a few years ago where each page had a cutting diagram on it and the backs were bright colors like origami paper. Our entire row of cubicles had snowbanks on every divider by the end of the year and they were so very pretty.

      6. valc2323*

        I work at a place where nearly everyone has a collection of stuffed microbes. My favorite is regular staph aureus (flesh-eating bug) because of the little embroidered knife and fork. Cracks me up every time.

        As for cubicle decorations, one year a friend had one of those page-a-day calendars that was paper snowflakes, with a cut diagram on the date side and a bright-colored back like origami paper. By the end of the year the entire row of cubes had drifts of cut-out snowflakes on every divider.

      1. LavaLamp*

        There were fake Canadian geese in various states of dismemberment upstairs before my works remodel. I’m still not sure why.

    13. Louise*

      When I worked at the front desk of a preschool we used to print out coloring pages of princesses and color and laminate them to stick on our computers.

    14. Pineapple Incident*

      The Friday before Christmas, my boss was out of the office all morning. Someone in my department must have strung lights around his office and draped them haphazardly around his chair on Thursday after my boss had left, which started a ball rolling. Over the course of the morning, other people put a bunch of other stuff in his office- 2 Christmas tree stars on his chair, garland across his desk, etc.- basically once he returned in order to sit at his desk and work he’d need to unwrap the lights and remove at least 3 other items from his desk area. He’s an entertainer, and likes to joke in the office in an appropriate way, so this was all taken in good fun :) as well as to the amusement of the rest of the office.

    15. Tongue Cluckin' Grammarian*

      The top of my PC tower is “Gotham”. I’m a known Batman fan, and over the years here I have been gifted with various little Batman-related toys. (Things like the mini-POPs from Funko, or the Dorbz, or keychain/LEGO figures). I also have the Best-Three villains in mini-POP form hanging out on top of one of my monitors (Maleficent, Ursula, and Queen Grimhilde).
      My office-mate has Star Wars and Dr. Who stuff, and then the office in general is full of plants. Our pathologists’ offices are practically arboretums too. We’re big on plants here at the lab, haha. Most of them are pothos, and are the descendents from the original pothos brought to us when the laboratory first opened in 2007!

    16. JeanB in NC*

      When I used to work for a children’s hospital fundraiser org, I had a tall stuffed giraffe (about 3 feet high, maybe?) that I pointed towards a tall plant that was in my office so he looked like he was grazing on the plant. I also had all kinds of books and beanie babies that stuck around for a month or two before heading over to the hospital, but I loved my giraffe!

    17. As Close As Breakfast*

      A couple of years ago my company moved into a new building. The decor style is a sort of late eighties / early nineties… thing? All of the second floor offices have wallpaper boarders. My office has a retro woodland creature motif with an endless line of caribou trudging through a stream. It’s the best one I think. Without walking randomly into peoples offices, the other ones that I can clearly picture are a repeating pattern of random lighthouses, framed images of Norman Rockwell Saturday Evening Post covers, heads of vintage golf clubs, billiards room stuff (dart board, pool cues, etc.), and a sort of random lot of old sports memorabilia (baseball card, football, gloves, etc.) It all goes well with the green carpet.

    18. Elizabeth West*

      At Exjob:
      Lots of plants.
      A very large collection of little tchotchkes, mostly frogs.
      Someone had a tiny row of action figures on the wall at the entrance to their cube.
      Bobbleheads.
      I had a plant named Horace and posters–the original Star Wars: A New Hope one with Luke and Leia, a poster of the Enterprise, and a huge Gryffindor Quidditch poster. My home screen was the TARDIS flying in space. Nobody else in my section of my floor had nerd stuff. One time I went down to the IT support area in the other building to talk to someone, and they had saw Star Wars stuff everywhere. I was like, I am sitting with the wrong group, LOL.

    19. Tuna Sandwich*

      At my desk I have:
      a Shakespeare action figure with moving quill pen
      a Dudley Do-Right poster
      a small pink fan that plugs into my computer tower (decorative and useful)
      assorted Minions

    20. Ramona Flowers*

      One of my colleagues has a big plastic T-Rex. His name is Mittens.

      I have some terrariums (terraria?) with figurines in. They’re pretty fun.

    21. TardyTardis*

      I know someone who had a lot of delightful cut out snowflakes pasted around their cubicle (till we had a couple of feet of the white stuff come down, and then we asked her to put up a nice bright sun as a Subtle Hint).

  8. Ramona Flowers*

    I have a fairly new colleague who is more social and extroverted (or just more needy?) than me. They keep inviting themselves along ‘for the walk’ if I go out to buy lunch, which I often do. 

    I have issues with food and don’t want someone always coming with me and seeing what I buy, or asking me where I plan to get lunch. It’s really, really stressful for me. I am also introverted enough that I need time alone and don’t want someone coming along with me so frequently like they are my shadow. But the food aspect is the bigger problem.

    This person sits next to me and I am beginning to feel like I can’t get away from them. I just cannot imagine sitting next to someone all day long and also following them out on their lunch breaks, so I’m having a hard time working out how to address this. We work closely together and get on well but, hello, give me some space!

    I wouldn’t mind them coming along once in a while, but it’s become a regular thing and I really wish I hadn’t let this happen. Unfortunately I have let it happen. I have been way too accommodating and I just don’t know how to claw back this space I’ve given up.

    They almost certainly know I have some kind of problem relating to food, as we work in an area relating to mental health and I noticeably don’t work on projects relating to eating disorders or read research about them and have once briefly mentioned that this topic isn’t okay for me when they tried to discuss a TV documentary. 

    So if all else fails I can tell the person I need to buy lunch alone as it’s affecting my mental health, as this wouldn’t actually be egregious here (you’ll have to trust me on this), but I’d obviously prefer not to have to.

    They’re part-time and I now dread lunchtime on the days when they work, which is obviously less than ideal. I don’t know what to do. I NEED to set new boundaries in the new year. Do I just breezily say I want to go alone? How do I word that – I can’t think clearly about what to say as I’m so stressed about it? I can’t just get up and go out, as they often ask what I’m planning to do so I need to head them off somehow. I don’t want them to think it’s never an option, just to stop invading my breaktime on such a regular basis. 

    If this was you, what would you want me to say to you? I can’t think like a person who can’t just go for a walk on their own and always needs someone to go with. I do realise it’s probably not normal to be stressed by other people potentially seeing your food choices. I also realise they probably don’t notice or care what I buy (they certainly don’t comment on it) but it’s very stressful for me, I need to make it stop and I don’t know how.

    (Please note: I would appreciate it if people don’t suggest I bring lunch from home more often. My food habits and choices are absolutely not up for discussion. I also do not need advice on treatment or support, just on dealing with my colleague. Thank you for respecting these boundaries.)

    I may not be able to read replies until later and this was stressful to ask but I’m so so grateful for any advice.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I think it’s perfectly reasonable for you to say that you need time for yourself in the middle of the day to recharge. You can frame it as a new year’s resolution to meditate or have more solitary time or whatever if you’re afraid that you might hurt her feelings.

      1. Not a Real Giraffe*

        I love framing it as a New Year’s resolution – it gives you an easy excuse for what might appear to be a sudden change in behavior. A breezy, “Oh my new year’s resolution is to give myself more ‘me’ time during the work week, so I’m planning to spend my lunch breaks on my own. Enjoy your lunch!”

      2. Mints*

        Oh I like this, you can frame it a little more formal too, like “For New Years I’m committing to using my walks for mindfulness. (But I’ll see you when I’m back!)”

        1. Ramona Flowers*

          This wording is great – I love “I’ll see you when I’m back”. Simple but effective and boundary setting. Thank you.

    2. anyone out there but me*

      How about something like, “Oh, you know… I just really need to spend some time alone today. I have some things I want to think over. Maybe we can go together tomorrow!” said breezily as you walk away…..

      If you aren’t comfortable with that, how about telling them you are going to run some personal errands?

      1. anyone out there but me*

        Oh another thought… could you leave just a few minutes before they do and slip out unnoticed?

        I get wanting to be left alone. I am big on alone-time, and when I worked at an office (I work from home now, yay!) I would often times slip out quickly without a word to anyone and take my lunch in a nearby park, or sit in my car in the parking lot while listening to music.

        1. Ramona Flowers*

          Unfortunately I can’t slip out unnoticed as we sit together – and I’ve tried, unsuccessfully.

    3. BadPlanning*

      Is it plausible to add, “Oh I have to also run some errands at lunch today” ? At my work location, it would be pretty normal for people to do a Target/drug store/etc run while getting some lunch to go. At least at my job, people take this as “I’m getting lunch alone” and don’t try to jump in and volunteer to ride around for errands.

      1. Snark*

        I’d be honest. “I need some time in my own headspace, but I’ll let you know when I’m up for company!” is fundamentally more straightforward, and doesn’t require the maintenance of any pretenses.

        1. Captain Obvious*

          Exactly. Perhaps invite her along every so often to be sociable, but tell her exactly what you’ve told us.

          1. Snark*

            And I think it’s worth it to invite her along every so often – it’s worth it to build the social capital.

            2. Ramona Flowers*

              Yep, although not too much given we sit together every day and already spend plenty of time together…

        2. The Consultant*

          Agreed. Also, making an excuse implies you would like to hang out if you didn’t have this thing to do. So now you just have to make another excuse tomorrow and the next day…..Seems better to just lay it all on the table all at once.

    4. Collie*

      If I was your coworker, I’d want to hear it straightforward. Next time she invites herself along, a simple, “I appreciate the offer of company but I really need some introvert time. Thanks for understanding!” Repeat as necessary. Once you get to the “once in a while” of her coming along (whatever, whenever that means for you), invite her. At that point, I’d still be fairly specific to avoid any understanding that this will be a standing thing — something like, “Hey, I’d love some company today. Care to come along this afternoon?”

      I know this would be a hard thing for me to do — I’m very protective of my alone time at lunch, too. Good luck!

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        I like this – although I might feel kind of bogus framing it as an offer of company when it’s more a request for company. Might have to just push through that.

        1. Lissa*

          I find sometimes pretending people mean things in the absolute best way possible can really really help, tbh. I know this sounds sort of weird, but it sometimes means they then don’t want to challenge your assumption of how awesome they are. I really wish I could think of some good examples of this right now but think, if someone’s asking for a bunch of details because they are being super nosy, and you say “Oh, thanks so much for thinking of me but we actually have it all covered!” sometimes the person will not want to keep going and say “oh I actually didn’t want to help you, I just want juicy details.”

          1. Ramona Flowers*

            I know what you mean – I once shut down a toxic complainer-gossip by repeatedly saying “thanks for letting me know but that’s not a problem for me”.

    5. M*

      Tell them you’re doing a mindfulness exercise resolution for New Year and you have to walk alone to fully embrace the exercise.

      1. RabbitRabbit*

        Good plan, or just frame it as a New Year’s thing in general – if not mindfulness (hanger-on may want all the details, your progress reports, etc.) then something about making a resolution to break up the work day with some away-time.

    6. Courtney*

      I think it would probably be best to stick to a short script here along the lines of, “Thanks, but I generally prefer to go to lunch by myself – it’s my quiet time to recharge.” Or something along those lines.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I have used this one. I think once they see that no one else joins you, they realize you meant what you said as you stated it. It’s not a personal slam, in other words.

    7. SLF128*

      When you get up for lunch, maybe tell them you have some errands to run instead and aren’t going to a restaurant.

    8. Colette*

      I think it’s fine to say you want to go by yourself (“Oh, I’m not up for company today”, or “Sorry, I need some quiet time so I’m going to go by myself”). Can you also give more vague answers when your coworker asks what you’re doing? (“Oh, I’ve got some stuff I need to get done”).

    9. Foreign Octopus*

      Hey Ramona,

      First of all, I’m really sorry that you’re dealing with this. I’m like you in the introverted sense, and I would be clawing at the walls going out of my mind if this was happening to me, so I feel for you.

      As for how to handle this, you’re absolutely right. You need to establish boundaries, and the person probably doesn’t realise what they’re doing. I once had a housemate who kept coming into my bedroom and hanging out with me. If I was watching a programme on my laptop, she’d squeeze onto my single bed with me; if I was cooking in the kitchen, she’d join me. She had no idea how much it was bothering me.

      How I handled it was to sit down and talk with her. The conversation barely took a minute but I think I spent days agonising over it. What I said (more or less) was:

      “I don’t know if you realise this but I need a lot more time to myself than everyone else here. I get really stressed out if I don’t have time to myself, and I’d really appreciate it if you’d start knocking before you come into my room, and give me a little space when I’m doing things.”

      She agreed, and we had a great relationship after that without any problems.

      If your colleague is an adult, then they’ll be able to follow the boundaries that you put up without any problems. If they’re not, then that’s a whole other problem.

      Suggested scripts for when they say that they’ll come along on your lunch break:

      “Oh, thanks, but I really need some time to myself today. Can I pick you up anything?” (Temporary fix)

      “Actually, [insert name here], this is a little awkward but I actually want/need to spend my lunch break alone. It helps me relax and sets me up for the afternoon. Thanks for understanding.” (Permanent fix)

      I’m sure others will have suggestions as well but a variation of that might work.

      Good luck!

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        This was so helpful. Thank you for sharing your own experience and being so empathetic.

        I was so scared to read the replies. All the kind and supportive responses have made me cry (in a good way). Thank you.

    10. AnotherJill*

      Politely say that you just need alone time for lunch in order to have a real break. No one who is sane would have any issue with that.

    11. bunniferous*

      I know I am not you but in my case I would be honest. Your coworker just thinks they are being friendly. I assume you like them okay except for this?

      And to be honest-I do not have your issues but this would annoy me as well. If I were your coworker I would want you to speak up because I cannot imagine they would want to distress you this way!

        1. Not So NewReader*

          If you honestly like her then tell her that, too. “I am glad I work with you and I enjoy it. However, I need down time, it’s not you, it’s everyone…”
          For myself, I might say, “I get grumpy if I don’t take some quiet time.” At the job I have now, we have two days a month where the demands on me are super high. My boss knows this. I tell her I need quiet time to clear my head and organize my thoughts for after lunch time. She knows I come back more put together because of the time out from everyone.

    12. Snark*

      “Do I just breezily say I want to go alone? How do I word that – I can’t think clearly about what to say as I’m so stressed about it?”

      So, you can totally do this. “I need some me time, so I think I’ll go alone today.” “I need some time in my own head to recharge today.” “I’m flying solo today, need to recharge. See you when I get back!” Delivered in an upbeat, kind tone, I think you’re in good territory with stuff like that.

      But I think, at this point, the breezy in the moment brush off might not be quite enough. In that case, I think you might want to say, again in a kind and upbeat tone, something like “Hey, you’re really good to work with and you’re great company, but at lunchtime, I usually need some time alone to recharge/keep my own headspace a nice place to be/spend some time in my own headspace/do personal errands. I’d love to have you along occasionally, but most days, I’m going to head out for lunch solo. Can we leave it that I’ll let you know when I’m up for company? “

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        You are all so kind. Telling me I can do this, you have no idea how helpful that is to hear. Thank you.

        1. Snark*

          You totally can! This is really normal, ordinary boundary setting, and delivered with a smile, don’t worry about it feeling fraught. Us awkward folk agonize about this, but have faith that this is totally normal and will be received without drama – “Oh sure! Let me know”

    13. Auri*

      I think that saying you want some alone time is perfectly reasonable and if you are comfortable doing that it is a great option, but if you’re like me and feel kinder having a “reason” they can’t join you I use this one all the time.

      “I can’t today, I promised my (friend/mom/dog) that I would try to call more often and lunch is the best time that both of us are available.”

      Then pop in a bluetooth and carry on. Even if it is only a few minutes you can explain that neither of you are big on phone conversations but you make a point of trying to talk regularly (or something to that effect).

      1. Captain Obvious*

        This is the wrong approach. All that tells the coworker is that ordinarily Ramona would love to have her tag along for lunch, but she can’t do it because she needs to call her mother. So what happens on the next day, when she no longer needs to call her mother? What happens if coworker goes out on her own and runs into Ramona sans phone? I don’t see any need to make up a white lie here. Being straightforward is the best solution.

          1. Captain Obvious*

            I don’t agree. Kind fiction will lead coworker to wonder why Ramona is avoiding her, and what she did wrong.

    14. Solaine*

      I think the above suggestions are all great. I think it’s also okay to make up some excuses like you’re having lunch with a friend, need to make phone calls or have errands to run.
      Maybe after a while they will understand that you use your lunch breaks in a different way.
      Can you say something along the lines of ‘I usually do x during my lunch breaks but let’s have lunch next Wednesday together’? You are of course not obligated to ever eat with your colleague but this might help not to get asked every day.
      Good luck!

    15. dr_silverware*

      It sounds like you need two things–a way to say “not today” and a way to get back any sense of control over this relationship.

      To say not today, this is what I’d do–I’d have a quick conversation in the morning to bring it up. “Coworker, we’ve been getting lunch together a lot, but I’ll probably be getting lunch on my own more often. I’ve realized that I need some alone time in the middle of the day to get a break. I’ll definitely let you know when I am and am not open to having company during lunch.” And then when it comes time for lunch and your coworker makes an uncomfortable joke about whether you’re eating alone today, you can laugh a bit and say, “I’m going to lunch alone today. Of course I’ll say hi if I see you out there!”

      To get back a sense of control, you could also pull the approach of scheduling a lunch or an alternate break with your coworker. “I’m going to lunch alone today, but let’s catch up at our Friday smoke break this afternoon!” You know when/if you’re going to take breaks with her.

      Right now I think you’re on shaky ground because you thought your boundaries were clear–“this is how I do lunch”–but your coworker is making that seem uncertain–“oh no, I guess it’s not clear that this is how I do lunch?” That uncertainty can be poison because you’re not sure where she’ll happily tread next. But if you let her know where your boundaries are, it’s honestly very likely that she’ll be happy to know; so then you know “she won’t tread here, and likely won’t tread on my other, more important boundaries either.”

      Good luck!

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        It sounds like you need two things–a way to say “not today” and a way to get back any sense of control over this relationship.

        Yes I think you are right on this.

    16. MommaCat*

      Do you have a work friend you can ask to take the new person on for at least some lunchtimes? And have your friend invite the newbie. That way, when newbie invites you, you can say something along the lines of, “No, this is great, I actually prefer to eat alone,” but something a bit less passive aggressive.

    17. MissDisplaced*

      It’s generally best to just be honest but kind. People all use lunchtime differently. If your coworker is an adult, they will understand. And if you genuinely DO like there company sometimes, make a “lunch date” every other week or something.

    18. periwinkle*

      Don’t make excuses because they sound like one-off reasons (running errands, “need a little time today”, etc.). I like Collie’s phrasing and use something similar myself. “Oh, lunch is my introvert time. See you when you get back!” Luckily most of my colleagues are fellow introverts so this is a rare problem now, but it’s worked well when I’ve worked with more social teams.

    19. Nita*

      If you really don’t want to get into why you need to go alone, or if they just aren’t the kind of person to get the hint if you say “oh, I feel like going by myself today!” just invent some urgent errands that you need to run on your lunch break. And run errands every day until they back off. Doing what you want on your lunch break is an important thing for your mental health and stress level, never mind the food issues.

    20. fposte*

      “Sorry, I need a people break–I’ll see you when I get back.”

      I think the food stuff looms large in this discussion for you, but I think the situation is really common for people just on general principles. Not everybody wants company all the time.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        I agree the people aspect is quicker to explain and move on than the food aspect. I like taking the easier route, don’t feel guilty about using the easier explanation, RF.

    21. it_guy*

      I’m in the same position where I’m at. The solution that I have come up with is, “I’m going to sit in the park and enjoy the peace and quiet.”

      Dandelion breaks work wonders!

    22. Context Clues*

      The trick is to make it clear you want alone time without negatively impacting your working relationship. When your coworker pops up to come with you, say something like…

      Oh, not this time okay? I like taking lunch time for myself to decompress a bit.
      I’ll be running errands so I’m popping out by myself.
      I can pick something thing up for you but I’ll be reading XYZ and relaxing by myself today

      If all else just tell them you prefer going to lunch by yourself, but you’re happy to do a once a week lunch together.

    23. Shiara*

      Looks like some other people have chimed in with some good in the moment scripts, so I’ll just reiterate that I think a “Oh, actually I was planning a solo walk today, thanks though!” or “Sorry, not today. This is going to be an introvert recharge lunch run!” shouldn’t cause any hard feelings while reraising some boundaries. Treat her inviting herself along as if she’s asking if you want company, and breezily decline the pleasure.

      One thing you might consider is designating one day a week as the official get lunch with coworker day, either out loud with her, or just in your head. So if she asks Wednesday, you might say “Oh, I was planning a solo walk today, thanks! Maybe tomorrow” and then Thursday, make a point of asking if she wants to join you. This might help you feel more comfortable declining on other days, and let you prepare for her presence with you on Thursdays, instead of the current nebulous stress of will you have company, will you not have company, will someone be watching/judging your food habits, will you be alone. Obviously, if this seems more stressful than always declining don’t do it. I just know that for me, scheduling away the uncertainty around whether anxiety causing thing might happen can make anxiety causing thing much more manageable.

      1. ainomiaka*

        I agree that scheduling whatever amount works for you as “with coworker” lunch time will make this go down easier.

    24. Ramona Flowers*

      Thank you so much to everyone who replied. I’m going through them quite slowly and might not have the bandwidth to reply to everyone but I am so grateful to you all. Thank you.

    25. SC Anonibrarian*

      No excuses or reasons – they just open an opportunity for negotiations. You don’t want a negotiaton, you want this to be totally normal and settled.

      ‘hey, actually I need an introvert moment, thanks tho!’

      IF (and only if) you’re up for it and otherwise like this person, i suggest picking a day where you generally have a few spare spoons and going ahead and adding that to your comment ‘but i’d love to catch up with you on x day for lunch (or whatever you’re up for)

      Repeat as necessary until they internalize that it’s always going to be a ‘no’ (except maybe on x day). Don’t be frustrated (visibly) if they keep asking for a while – you ARE changing the pattern. But you don’t have to make it a big hairy deal either. Just friendly and open and …
      ‘nope, sorry – I need a bit by myself to recharge’
      ‘thanks, but this is my introvert time!’
      ‘no thanks, see you on x day tho!’
      ‘i’d be happy to grab you something (if you really truly are) but i’ve gotta drop it and run – need some me-time’
      ‘sounds interesting, but you know me – I need that recharge time. Remind me on x day?/send me a link?/post it to the employee intranet?’
      ‘sorry, no company allowed, introvert moment!’
      ‘me time! catch ya later!’
      ‘yep, still an introvert – see you at the meeting!’

      good luck and happy boundary-building!

    26. Too Witches*

      Your reasons for wanting to go to lunch on your own are so perfectly valid, and I’m another vote for having a quick, no-big-deal conversation with that colleague explaining you need the downtime to be completely away from work (because let’s be honest, even if it isn’t about the food, and even if you don’t talk shop over lunch, you still never get to just *be* when you’re out with a colleague. You still have to be on enough that it’s not relaxing). I love the idea up thread about framing it as a New Year’s Resolution, whatever shape that takes for you – easy out for me would be “I’ve committed to reading more books this year and I really want to take my lunch to get in a chapter or two, I won’t be good company”, and then I’d take a book and not even feel compelled to read the damn thing. If I were in your position, I would also ask your colleague to let you approach them when you want company, so then you don’t have to stress about “oh are they going to ask again today??”. I would hate having to turn them down every day, so I’d nip that right in the bud, and then make a concerted effort to invite them to accompany me in manageable intervals – maybe once a week, maybe once a month, maybe spontaneously on days where you don’t feel stressed around food, whatever works for you.
      You don’t have to justify your feelings around food and eating, and you get to manage your life the way that’s right for you, and I really hope your colleague is chill about it.

    27. H.C.*

      I was in a similar scenario with you when I started CurrentJob (our team is a small one, and the co-workers are used to lunching together, I guess.)

      I’ve used variations of:
      “I have some errands to take care of, so can’t lunch with you today – sorry!” (even if that errand is really just self-care via solitude)
      “I don’t know where I’m going to lunch yet, was planning to walk/drive around and see what I feel like” (which is actually true some times, but I’ve used this when I’ve already decided where I want to solo lunch at)
      “Oh, I’m meeting with a friend for lunch today. Another time!” (even though the meeting might really be just texting over lunch)

      Of course, the more direct “I’d like to lunch alone / recharge in solitude” that others have suggested are totally fine too, but just throwing out some roundabout options for you to use too.

      Over time, my co-workers stopped asking about my lunch every day and basically “see you later” when I announce my lunch break (and on my part, I still lunch with them occasionally — about once every other week — to build rapport.)

    28. Me*

      I would just say that you were running errands. I also think you overestimate how much coworkers pay attention to others’ assingments. It may be noticeable to you that you don’t work on food related topics, but I’m pretty sure that wouldn’t be noticeable to many others

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        I get what you’re saying but trust me, it’s obvious. I work in an area relating to mental health, I work closely with a couple of people including this colleague and it is very clear that I don’t work on projects relating to eating disorders (not food but eating disorders specifically). Please trust me when I say this person knows this.

      2. Ramona Flowers*

        Also I have redirected them to other people when they want to ask about or discuss anything to do with eating issues. I’m not overestimating and really appreciate people taking me at my word on things! Thanks!

    29. ..Kat..*

      Please don’t say “…maybe tomorrow” if you don’t mean it. This is stringing her along.

      Do you know people who would like a lunch buddy? Since she is new, it would be a kindness to introduce them.

    30. Ramona Flowers*

      Thanks again for all the replies. I really appreciate it. My relationship with this colleague is not as boundaried as I’d like, and I think it might be a relief for me if I set some boundaries. I need two separate things that had got muddled into one: to stop answering or inviting questions about what I’m eating, and to have alone-time on my breaks.

      I’ve thought of a couple of solutions that might help me take control of this situation and also the wider problem of feeling quite stressed by the communal and public nature of eating at work:
      – I’m going to start spending more of my lunchtimes outside the office.
      – I’m going to ask my manager for an adjustment/accommodation where, if needed, I can take my lunch outside of the official timeframe. I’m going to ask for the option to either take two half-hour breaks, or take my lunch hour much earlier. I know this won’t be a problem.

      I may also tell them I’ve realised I need alone time at lunch and house it as a general issue with being in a workplace with lots of other people / the break room being full etc. If I tell them I’ve changed my lunch times as I need alone time I think that gets the message across.

      I may also tell this colleague that I’ve realised it’s better for me not to answer questions about what I’m eating and that I’m trying to do better self-care around that. I’m willing to name that particular issue to get the result I need and it’s not an egregious overshare here (we work with very difficult subject matter and situations and we all have things we find difficult). But first I’ll try saying I’ve changed my lunch schedule as I need alone time and that might remove the problem.

      Thank you all for helping me find the headspace to figure this out.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        Well I read that back and thought: do I really want to change my entire working pattern just to escape one person? No, I don’t think I do. Time to use your words, Ramona. They’re away in early January, but I’ll let you all know how it goes in due course. Thanks again.

        1. Anon for this*

          That was what I was thinking reading this last comment…that’s a complicated way of solving what might be solved with an uncomfortable, but simple, conversation. I think you’re on the right track–use your words! If they don’t work, THEN you can go to the more complicated solution.

    31. WillowSunstar*

      I had a coworker who acted very judgemental about food, and I also have food issues with eating in public. Since being subtle several times did not work, I eventually had to tell him outright that I preferred to be alone at lunch so I could read books (I always brought my iPhone along with me). It worked.

    32. Observer*

      I haven’t read all the replies, so I hope I’m not repeating something that someone said.

      I think it’s important to remember that it does NOT matter why you don’t want to do your lunch runs with him. You don’t owe him an explanation, as long as you are not rude or mean. And you don’t need to have an “adequate” or “good” reason. You just don’t want to do it and that’s all there is to it. The only thing you shouldn’t do is make it about him. Iow “I prefer to do my lunch runs alone” vs “I don’t want to do my lunch runs with you” or whatever wording works for you.

  9. Sunflower*

    How do I sit down with my grandboss and have a real talk with her about my position at the company and where it’s going and what I want? FWIW my boss has only been a few months so my grandboss is the main one evaluating my performance, etc.

    I asked to move to HCOL city that I travel to frequently. It was turned down due to compensation issues but I’m being told my grandboss is still fighting for it. I’m starting to wonder if other things are in play and they just don’t want ME in that city. I also watch people around me in my department (but not on my team) get promoted every year. I kind of got the short end of the stick since I had a crappy manager for my first 1.5 years here and that reflected badly on my team overall(we support the other people in my department). I’m only recently starting to be able to show my skills off but I have a new manager who other folks in the dept are not impressed with yet.

    Moving to HCOL is a dealbreaker at this point. I’ve made it clear I would like to move there but I’m not sure if it’s clear that I will be moving there even if it means finding a new position.

    I value my grandboss and think she does provide me with good feedback but there is nothing concrete there- just a lot of ‘you’re doing a great job, ‘i get great feedback about you’.
    I would really like to stay in my job but if it’s leading down a road to nowhere and this move to HCOL is all talk, I need to get out sooner rather than later.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      If you are planning to move to HCOL regardless, I think you could reasonably sit down with grandboss and say “I know we’ve discussed this before and it doesn’t seem to be on the table at this time. I want you to know that I am still planning to move [within timeline] and I’m wondering if you think this might work out by then. If not, I’m going to start looking for other positions in HCOL.”

    3. ainomiaka*

      I think these are actually two separate conversations. What do they see your future and moving to HCOL city. It sounds like they don’t see your future as a transfer there. Is there any other future you would be happy with? What would you need to be happy with your job in 5 years if that transfer doesn’t happen? If your grandboss says “we’re creating this new department for you to manage, and it’ll be here” would that appeal?
      If the answer is you want to move no matter what and nothing they can offer would make you stay, I think Amy Santiago’s script or something similar can work, but you should be prepared for the response to be “I’m sorry to hear you are leaving us, when is your last day?” Dealbreakers do mean you sometimes just have to walk away.

    4. Anony*

      I would start looking for a new job in that city. If you get transferred there then that’s great and you can withdraw your applications. But you never know, you may find something you like even better.

    5. Where's the Le-Toose?*

      Sunflower, I have two thoughts. The first is in relation to your future at the company. I would only sit down and have a conversation with your grand boss about your future with them if it was about promotional opportunities, new duties, etc–something other than the move to the HCOL city. If the only purpose for the “future” discussion with grand boss is so you can get to HCOL city, then I agree with some of the other comments to just apply for jobs in HCOL city. I manage a crew of 19, and if someone asked to discuss their future but only wanted to talk about moving to New York or San Francisco, then I would be turned off by the discussion and I would feel more like a travel agent than a boss. But if my employee was excited about that Master Llama Wrangler position that just happened to be in San Francisco, I would go to bat for the employee.

      Second, can you move to HCOL city and live off your current salary? Or are there changes you could make to save the office money that would offset the cost of the increased compensation to send you to HCOL city? If there are changes you could make to make that move happen for you, then it would be worth a conversation with the grand boss to discuss alternatives that would allow you to go to HCOL.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Agreeing with this.

        I think I would open the conversation by asking if there were any updates about an opening for me in HCOL city. Since the answers Yes or No are definitive, the only real problem answer is Maybe/Not Yet. That indecision leaves you in limbo. Plan out what you will say if he says maybe or not yet.
        Showing him how it would be to the company’s advantage to move you is an excellent idea.

  10. SLF128*

    I went to college for education. It took a few years into the job to realize it wasn’t a good fit. After that, I didn’t know what to do, so I took a temp job. That turned into a full time position which in turn has turned into promotions & other jobs within the same area of the financial industry. Every quarter we have progress meetings and I always get asked the “where do you see yourself going next” question. Before, it had been easier to answer as there were other steps to take in my area, but now I am at the end, where I need to move to a different division. My company encourages job changing every couple of years. I cannot keep answering this with I don’t know or this is all new to me, but the industry really feels foreign to me. I am good within my area and have that knowledge, but beyond that, I just don’t know. We have corporate wide meetings where I feel at a complete loss, because the concepts they talk about are foreign. Moving to another area where I might not like it or be good fit frightens me, since you cannot apply for another job within 1 yr. So I guess my question is, how do I answer these questions honestly, but also let my boss know that I wouldn’t mind the move if it would be a good fit. And how do I know it will be a good fit. Job descriptions are notorious for not really fitting the job roles here.

    1. Grits McGee*

      Sounds like informational interviews with staff in other divisions would be a good option here, especially if changing job is something your employer encourages.

      Think about what kinds of tasks you excel at or skills you enjoy using, and ask your boss or a mentor about areas or positions that might be a good fit based on that. Try to take some time to research your industry- professional associations often have educational resources, or your colleagues might have suggestions for reading material that would give you a broader picture of the industry.

    2. [insert witty user name here]*

      Do you have some colleagues that used to work in your area but have gone on to other things in the company? Trace their paths to see what skills are transferable, maybe.

      I can totally relate to this. I also went to college for education – and didn’t even end up teaching at all. I also work in a financial setting now and am doing well, but still feel like a bit of an outsider sometimes. No helpful info there…. just wanted to let you know you’re not alone :)

    3. periwinkle*

      If you have a good manager – especially if she’s done several of those internal job movements – ask for her help!

      First, sit down and think about what you enjoy about your current role, what you don’t enjoy, what you’re better at than most people, and what skills/knowledge you’d like to improve. Do this for every job you’ve had, even those early education jobs (figure out why exactly the field/job was a poor fit). Look for patterns. What are the common threads? Is there something you were really good at in each role that, although they were different tasks, share a common skill or environment or outcome?

      Once you have a good idea of your strengths and preferences, talk with your manager or maybe some other folks who have rotated through the organization. “This is what I’m good at, where do you think I might fit?”

    4. Arjay*

      In addition to informational interviews, ask about shadowing for a few hours in areas you think you might find interesting.

    5. Hillary*

      Some business classes (if you’re interested and if the company will pay for them) might also help you learn what’s out there. My undergrad was in poli sci, and I ended up working in business. I didn’t realize how much I enjoy some aspects of accounting until I went to business school and my career ended up shifting directions.

  11. AlexandrinaVictoria*

    My large company has a procedure that states that any qualified internal candidates who apply for jobs have to be interviewed. I applied for a position (that I had actually interviewed for twice before in different groups, and was second place) in November, and received an email about a week ago that it had been filled. No interview. I contacted our HR contact to find out why, and she palmed it off on a junior member of her staff, who has been quite snippy with me in emails. I have a sneaking suspicion, though no way to prove it, that it’s because I have intermittent FMLA for a chronic health condition. Was I wrong to ask why I wasn’t interviewed? And how do I get them to pony up the truth?

    1. Not So Super-visor*

      You weren’t wrong to ask, but you might have to face the fact that you might never get the truth that you’re looking for. It could be an innocent mistake; it could be more nefarious. It’s unlikely that someone would admit that they did it on purpose.
      FWIW, at my company if we have recently interviewed an internal candidate for a position, and the position re-opens (lets say 6 months or so after the interview), we don’t re-interview the person. We put them back in the candidate pool and use the old interview.

    2. WellRed*

      If it’s company policy, it’s not wrong to ask. However, I am not sure you will get a satisfying resolution to your attempts to get them to pony up the truth.

    3. Samata*

      I would say you were definitely right for asking, but I echo what others have said about not getting the answer you want. Any savvy HR person will not admit to denying you a job based on your medical condition – whether they did or not.

      It could be that (unfortunately) you came in 2nd again – though you would think if HR was open to telling you that last month they’d be open to telling you again.

      Like No So Super-visor we have the same policy, but if you apply for the same role within 6 months (even in a different department) we don’t re-interview that quickly because likely not much has changed in that time frame. maybe you couldn’t get clarification on that?

    4. Anono-me*

      1. You were not wrong to ask why you didn’t get interviewed.
      2. Unless they’re dumb as a box of rocks, there’s no way anyone is going to admit to illegal behavior.
      3. Although you didn’t ask, I’m going to suggest being very careful about pursuing this, as it could come back to cause more trouble for you. Especially if you are correct and these people already behaved illegally once.( The first time is the hardest.)

    5. Sam Foster*

      As others have stated, just because there is a policy doesn’t mean it will be followed. Balance carefully your desire for the truth versus repercussions regarding your continued employment.

  12. DoctorateStrange*

    I’m reading The Invention of Angela Carter by Edmund Gordon and I find it to be one of the best biographies I’ve read. I’ve been an admirer of Carter’s work for awhile and I love how meticulously well-researched and well-written this book is. So far, I like how Gordon shows Carter as a fully-realized person, flaws and all, and not some mystical being.

    I’m also going to start on Mervyn Peake’s Gormenghast series. I hope to have good fun with that.

    1. DoctorateStrange*

      Oops! Apologies! I did not see that this was for work-related stuff, please disregard my comment!

  13. silvertech*

    I want to share my experience with you all: I used to work office jobs and I was constantly anxious and frustrated about everything, office politics, clients, coworkers, etc. I was laid off and I now have two jobs, one being a cleaning person in a high-end mountain holiday resort. I would have never in a million years thought I would enjoy it but I do! My boss is great, it’s a task-based job where the only measurable goal you have is getting homes clean is a reasonable timeframe, which is rather easy to verify (boss even gave us cleaners a detailed task list with tips on how to clean efficiently, so we know her expectations clearly). Once I’m done my job doesn’t follow me home! I can relax and take a shower without stressing about deadlines and stuff like that. I’m very surprised by this turn of events.

    1. selina kyle*

      That sounds…amazing? Work has been a little slow lately which makes it taxing in a different way (if that makes sense). How does the pay compare?
      I’m glad you find joy in it :)

      1. silvertech*

        Pay is good, I’m in a different country so I can’t really compare with my previous jobs, but the consensus is that cleaning jobs here are paid well, this one is no exception. I find it refreshing, as in my country of origin cleaning people are often underpaid and looked down upon.

    2. BadPlanning*

      I work in software, but I used to cover maintaining some of our testing computers. We started to phase out those computers so every couple of weeks, I would wipe drives and then package them up to get recycled. This was surprisingly satisfying to me.

    3. GriefBacon*

      I used to clean hotel rooms in a national park, and I loved it! I just buckled down and did my thing, didn’t have to think about it too much, didn’t have to be fake-nice to anyone, got great tips (and SO much unopened booze that was left behind!), and was done when I was done! And, because I wasn’t dealing with difficult people all day, I was 100% ready to hang out, hike, go to bonfires, etc in the evenings because I didn’t need any time to decompress.

      1. silvertech*

        Yes to everything you said! I’m allowed to take any food and beverage that guests leave behind, I’ve been seriously stocking my pantry lately. Also, I had a side hustle as a server and oh boy, cleaning is so much better, no to little interaction (sometimes I clean with a coworker or a client stops by to make requests)… I’m an introvert so that’s fantastic!

        1. GriefBacon*

          Yep, my roommates LOVED me because I was always bringing back groceries! And sometimes people would tip me in food specialties from their corner of the world. So fun. I spent a number of years in retail, and cleaning hotel rooms was soooo much better (I’m an extrovert, but I don’t suffer fools gladly, so I do better in introvert-type positions).

          1. H.C.*

            I used to work in catering in college and ditto for roommates loving me for bringing in so much extra food back, which is pretty common since my employer works in a 5-10% margin of extra food for every event (in case of send backs, additional last minute guests, etc.) which typically wounds up being for the staff to eat/take home if it’s left over.

      2. under pressure*

        I have a job where I’m on my feet 6-9 hours per day, and I find I have to physically decompress after work before I can do anything fun OR useful, ARGH. I’m 35 and fit/active but I think my feet and knees are just cruddy.

    4. All Hail Queen Sally*

      It sounds like the job is more physical. Perhaps that is helping with your attitude. I have been an office worker forever and have been thinking of doing something more physical for health reasons. My Dr. keeps telling me that “sitting is the new smoking.”

      1. silvertech*

        Definitely… I gained a lot of weight since I started working office jobs after university and my health declined (not dramatically, but my mental health took a nosedive). Being physically active is difficult right now, as I just started, but I already see little improvements, such as less shortness of breath and foot pain.

    5. MissDisplaced*

      Well… yes.
      There is something to be said for jobs that don’t require a lot of abstract thinking and goals are very clearly defined with start and end points you can see. (And I don’t mean that in a bad way). I worked in a factory when I started and it was very physical, but not mentally challenging. My mind was free to wander and I would actually “write” stories in my head and then go home and write them! Now I work in office environments and career is often life, and you tend to live it all day and night and it’s hard to disengage.

      I think office jobs are like this because the tasks/duties/goals are NOT defined or clear and often feel pretty useless (like why am I making this 200th TPS report for anyway?). Plus with my job, it’s also very subjective and you can work your ass off only to have some higher up say they hate the color blue (or something of that nature). I find in offices, many people like to assurt their authority for no particular reason over silly mundane things. Sadly, it’s often like Kindergarten.

      This was kind of a long rant to basically say that you should do what makes YOU happy. Jobs are just a means to an end. There is nothing wrong with wanting to leave it behind at the end of the workday.

    6. periwinkle*

      When you work an office job, your deliverables are often intangible and not all that satisfying. Cleaning has tangible and highly visible results.

      I enjoy washing dishes by hand because there’s a real result; you start with a pile of food-soiled objects and end with a dish drainer neatly filled with clean dishes and flatware. On a sunny day they sparkle just like in the commercials and it’s truly satisfying.

      A lot of people would grumble at having to take a cleaning job. It’s awesome that you’ve found all those positives to celebrate!

      1. amy l*

        I have two college degrees, am an accountant and one of the most satisfying jobs I’ve ever had was a dishwasher at a popular resturant. It was fast paced, a little physical, and required minimal mental effort. If it had paid more, I would probably still work the dish room.

        1. nep*

          I can relate to this so strongly. I have often thought of getting a slightly physical job, very hands-on (literally), one that I would never have reason to take home…I can imagine being quite at peace with that.

    8. Ramona Flowers*

      After I burned out in journalism I had a job that involved sorting and shredding pieces of paper. It was utterly blissful.

    9. Mints*

      I’m always happy to see these because white collar circles tend to be all “Your job must be amazing because it will be all consuming” and like, I like working in an office and typical jobs but I don’t get my major life satisfaction from it. It’s refreshing to see this acknowledged

    10. copy run start*

      Yes! I daydream sometimes about going back to being a retail slave. If the pay and benefits weren’t so bad, I’d do it. There was enough routine vs. new to keep me interested, I got to move around, the hours were great (I’d rather do 28 hours a week at odd times, especially evening shifts, than 40 hours 8 – 5) for me, and the worst thing that’d happen on a bad day is a customer getting grumpy over something ridiculous.

  14. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

    Anyone in the entertainment industry: does anyone do background checks on extras/background actors? What kind of screening process is there?

    1. OperaArt*

      Speaking only as someone who occasionally does background/extra work, I have never had a background check or heard of anyone having one. The time between being cast and showing up for work is usually 1-3 days. In the US, we do need to bring ID along because of all the paperwork—a passport, or a driver’s license/social security combo. I bring my passport.

      That said, reputation does matter. Background casting agencies do learn who is reliable and professional, and who is not. I know I got cast one time because I show up and am not a problem on set.
      The main criteria are that one looks the part, shows up on time, pays attention, is patient, doesn’t bug the cast or crew, follows directions, and helps the process move along.

    2. Louise*

      There uh… isn’t really one. But it’s a very reputation-based industry, so if someone knows someone you’ve worked with, there’s a decent chance that person will be contacted.

      I’m not sure what types of checks happen when you join actors equity or SAG, so I’d be curious to hear if those unions run background checks or anything similar.

      1. OperaArt*

        That’s a good point. I’m nonunion doing background/extra work on both union and nonunion productions. (It’s not easy to get into the performing arts unions, especially in a smaller market like San Francisco.) All I can say is that I’ve never heard of background checks, and can’t think who would pay to do them.
        But essentially, whenever we work on a new project, even if only for a day, we are starting a new job. Therefore, all the tax and right-to-work paperwork has to be filled out just as for any office or retail job. So we do need valid documentation.

  15. CT*

    I think “I need some me time” or “I’m sorry, but I need some time alone” is perfectly acceptable, especially for someone who works in the mental health field.

    You could also talk to her during a non-mealtime and tell her that you enjoy her company, but like doing lunch alone. Maybe arrange for lunch together on a regular day each week, instead of every day?

  16. Teapot Librarian*

    Accomplishments! What have you managed to do this week at work because it’s been otherwise slow? I found my desk under the piles of paper. Cleaning my desk has been on my to-do list since July. Anyone else get stuff done?

    1. anyone out there but me*

      Since I am blessed to work exclusively from home…. I got all my laundry done and cleaned/organized my kitchen pantry, my linen closet and my utility room :) :)

    2. Jadelyn*

      I cleaned out my inbox – I’d been on a work trip for 2 weeks and by the time I got back, despite trying to stay on top of it while I was gone, my inbox had something like 600 emails in it. And having a super-full inbox is very stressful to me, I feel like I’m probably forgetting things that got lost in my inbox or just like the sheer volume of communication is weighing on me. So I went through yesterday and deleted, filed, noted, everything so that I could get it down to a manageable number. I now have 49 emails in my inbox. *relieved sigh*

      1. Teapot Librarian*

        Well done! I’m at 108 but I’m completely with you on it being stressful. One of my employees has *unread* messages in the 5-digits and I don’t even want to think about the things he’s missed.

    3. KR*

      I went to Walmart with my corporate card and bought office supplies to use up my budget this year :) New pens, multicolored hanging file folders, new expo markers, packing tape, zip drive, and a fancy clipboard. :)

    4. LCL*

      I was able to let go of obsessing about my job for a week and enjoyed my vacation. I prepped really really well for my relief so he isn’t floundering, and left him enough time to do some tech writing.

    5. Tuna Sandwich*

      Got caught up on paperwork. Cleaned out my “don’t know where else to put it” drawer. Researched training sessions and webinars I might like to take in the new year.

  17. Sparkles*

    So this might be the pettiest question ever, but I want to see what others think.
    I am not a fan of my job. I work in an office of almost all women, so naturally, there is a lot of gossip and drama. I don’t love my job and I am just sticking through until I know I will have to move again. I am friendly but keep to myself.
    There is this lady who I work with that is the office busybody. She knows everything about everyone and will tell you everything about everyone’s business. Since I work in the city, I have to park 6 blocks away from work and walk to and from my car every day. We both happen to park in the same parking lot, and we both get off at 5 pm. She waits for me at the elevators every day and obnoxiously calls for me until I let her know I am coming. I have never told her that I want to walk with her, and frankly, I dont want to. I want to use that walk to decompress from my day. She chatters non stop and asks really invasive questions that I dont want to answer. I try not to answer the questions, or sometimes I deflect it back to her. I don’t want to come across as mean, but I dont want to walk with her. I cant change the time that I leave. Do I just suck it up and walk with her? I dont know!

    1. BadPlanning*

      Does it work if you tell her you’ll be a few minutes and she should go ahead with you (you, of course, don’t want to hold up her commute home)? Or is she likely to come over and loom at you?

      1. Sparkles*

        She hovers over me and waits for me because I have been doing that lately. I am the same age as her children she has told me she feels that she needs to “be a mom” to me so I am not a female walking alone. I know she means well but UGHHHHH SHES ANNOYING.

        1. BadPlanning*

          Ah, I was thinking she might think you have to walk together For Safety. That’s trickier to disengage.

        2. Rat Racer*

          Could you make something up like: “I’m trying to get through an audiobook for my bookclub, so I’m going to have my earbuds in – sorry! Way behind! Totally understand if you don’t want to walk with me in silence….”

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I’ll give you the same advice I gave Ramona Flowers above. This is a great time of year to set boundaries. Tell coworker that you’ve decided to use that time for [insert solitary action here].

    3. anyone out there but me*

      Make a bathroom stop before hitting the elevators. Wait long enough for her to go down first. Or tell her not to wait up. Tell her you’ll catch up… then don’t. Pretend you are on a call and can’t leave right at 5pm. Pretend you are on a call on your cell and motion to her to go on without you. Sneak by her somehow, take the stairs down a floor or 2, then get on the elevator there.

        1. Sparkles*

          We pay for our lots, and I am in the cheapest lot around. So unless I want to pay double, I cant park somewhere else.
          I have made bathroom stops before I leave and she will wait for me even when I tell her to go ahead. She feels she needs to “take care of me”. Note- I am a grown, married woman who has never said anything about feeling unsafe. I have no idea where she gets that idea from.

          1. RabbitRabbit*

            Would brightly saying something in response like, “No, you don’t!” work? Or similar?

            I had a colleague who would harangue me about going outside without a coat (!) to a meeting the next building over, and she kept this up until I started pushing back with not-actually-joking “OK, Mom…” references. Since this woman seems to relish the position, I’m wondering what would work to push back on. Maybe the opposite, like “jokes” about how you only have one mom, your mom would get jealous/sad?

            1. Anna Held*

              She isn’t being nice. This isn’t about her need to take care of you — which you patently don’t need — it’s about her need to feel needed. And to be nosy. She’s pushing boundaries, and you’re not wrong to push back. You’re a grown woman.

              And I also work in an office with women, and there is no gossip or drama. That is not the norm.

    4. bunniferous*

      This is where you make a stop at the restroom before you go. Metaphorically bring a book if you need to.

    5. CatCat*

      “Hey, going forward, I’m going to start walking to my car alone. I need that walk to decompress from my day. So no need to wait for me at the elevator at the end of the day. Thanks for understanding.”

      I’d start wearing earphones (regardless of whether actually listening to something) for those times when you end up leaving at the same time anyway. If she tries to chat you up. “Sorry, I’d like to listen to my music/podcast/whatever. As I said, this is my end of the day decompression. Thanks for understanding.”

      Also, just FYI, an office of almost all women does not “naturally” lead to a lot of gossip and drama.

      1. Pollygrammer*

        “Somebody recommended [X podcast] so I’m going to start using my walk time to start catching up.” Polite, permanent.

      2. Sparkles*

        I like the headphone idea, and honestly, I dont know why I didnt think of that. I have called people the second I walk out of the elevator but she will walk all 6 blocks right next to me as I talk on the phone. She doesn’t take social cues very well.

    6. PlantLady*

      You have my sympathy, because I’ve been in similar situations before. It’s no fun. But something occurred to me…you say you “work in an office of almost all women”, but it’s not clear if you are a woman. If you are one of the few men in the office, could she want to walk 6 city blocks to her car with a male coworker for safety reasons? If you are a woman, it could be the same issue for her – safety in numbers, etc. Just a thought. (And even if that is the case, I realize it doesn’t change the fact that she’s someone you don’t want to walk with.)

      1. Sparkles*

        I’m a woman! I should have included that, sorry! She has voiced concern about letting me walk alone because I am the same age as her children and she feels she needs to protect me. I am married and not a child and I have never expressed concerns about walking alone. So, I get that she is coming from a good place. She just doesn’t pick up on social cues well. I think I am just going to start wearing headphones on my walk and hopefully, she will get the hint.

        1. Arjay*

          Please forgive me for this, since I’m not your mom either, but do be careful wearing the headphones. Seeming distracted or unaware of your surroundings could actually end up making you a target for something dangerous.

          1. music*

            this is so unnecessary to say to someone. It seems like Sparkles is a grown woman, and as such is perfectly capable of walking down a street and being aware of her surroundings, with or without headphones.

              1. TL -*

                Sparkles is not particularly concerned about the dangers of her walk and I don’t think it’s necessary for us to engender fear in her because she is a woman walking alone.

                1. Elizabeth West*

                  This–I take my walk with headphones every day, and I know enough not to turn up the volume so loud that I can’t hear cars or people approaching. I assume Sparkles knows that too.

                  It’s good to be aware of your surroundings, true, and to project that you are, though you can do that with headphones easily.

        2. TL -*

          Being married doesn’t make you any more or less an adult/able to care for yourself than being single.
          Having a majority of women doesn’t make your office any more prone to gossip/drama than having a majority of men.
          In more practical terms, it is super inappropriate for her to mother you and I second everyone saying asking for alone time/wearing headphones and saying you want to listen to music/finish a podcast/whatever.

    7. Oops*

      I also work in office full of women and in fact it is not ‘natural’ that there should be gossip and drama. That is a misogynistic prejudice. Please try to stop spreading that kind of thinking. Hang back and when she starts calling for you, you can tell her what you told us ‘[you] want to use that walk to decompress”.

      1. Sparkles*

        I mean, I didn’t mean for it to come across as misogynistic prejudice. I guess I have just had terrible luck with my work history since every place that I have worked has had that history. I am never included in it, but it still affects me. My problem will be solved when I finish school in a year and I will be freelancing and working from home :)

    8. June*

      I flinched when you said that women = gossip and drama. It’s a shame that your office is that way but let’s not spread the assumptions that all offices are that way. I am sure you don’t gossip or cause drama and that is great! Hopefully the rest of the office will see your example and will cause a cultural swift.

      1. Sparkles*

        I think I have had terrible luck with my workplaces. I am back in school for another career path that will completely remove me from the current field that I am in.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          I’ve been in offices of both mostly men and mostly women, and men are just as bad with the gossip and Regina George crap. I think it’s just a people thing. And yes, some workplaces are definitely worse than others. In my experience, sales offices can be really nasty and back-stabby because everyone’s competing for customers/commissions.

    9. music*

      I would try to disengage your brain from the idea that just because there are a lot of women that it’s therefore natural that there is a lot of drama.

      I work with plenty of women, and we’re no more or less dramatic because of it.

      I also notice you think she’s trying to “mother” you, which makes me think your whole office has some bad ideas about gender norms? It is absolutely not ok for her to treat you like her child, and good lord where do you live that walking somewhere at 5pm is in any way unsafe?

      It seems like there are a lot of unfortunate habits and old-fashioned thinking here here, and the predicament you’re in is stemming from them. Simply tell her to leave you alone, draw your boundary, and don’t worry about whether she feels offended or not. It’s really that simple.

      2. amy l*

        Could you say something like, “Please, just go. I will be fine and I really need a people break today.”

        1. ZarinC*

          Have you considered that maybe she is the one who feels uncomfortable/unsafe walking alone–therefore she always waits for you?

        2. ClownBaby*

          This is how I got out of eating lunch with coworkers. So I definitely support this.

          I prefer to use my lunch hour to sit in my car to decompress, read, or just browse dank memes on my phone. Occasionally it is just way too hot or cold to do this (I am not about to turn my car on for ac or heat), so I sit in the break room.

          The same two people would always try to sit with me to talk or gossip…the worst is “HEY WHAT ARE YOU READING?!” Well…I’m not reading any more because your stupid face is making noise at me. After trying to suck it up hoping they’d pick up on my picking the corner table with my back turned toward everyone, the book, and the headphones in my ears, I finally just told them “Hey, I talk with people all day. I use my lunch hour to decompress and get some reading done. Thank you for understanding.” No more lunch time interruptions from those two. And any other lunchers at that time seem to have picked up on the fact that unless I initiate or join an existing conversation, I want no part in their lunch time babbling.

          1. Elizabeth West*

            I had to do that at OldExjob–I wrote at work and the guys in the office would come all the way into the break room where I sat behind my personal laptop, with big giant headphones on and my lunch right there, and ask me to do stuff. I would say “I’m off the clock right now; please email me and I’ll take care of it as soon as I come back,” and they would get pissy. I just kept saying it until they finally left me alone.

    10. Bowlos*

      “I work in an office of almost all women, so naturally, there is a lot of gossip and drama.”

      That generalization is offensive.

      1. Frankie Bergstein*

        I am with you on this — I work in a field that’s very, very skewed towards women, and I happen to not have had these experiences.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      Eh, tell her that you need the time to decompress. If you like you can tell her that if she is willing to walk in silence she can decompress/walk with you also.
      It might be helpful to point out that you both decompress in different ways. she does it by talking and you do it by being quiet. This is not a matter of right or wrong, it’s just differences in people.

    12. WillowSunstar*

      Is there a separate exit from the building you can use, like a back door or a side door? I would use one of those. Or perhaps try sitting in a bathroom for a few extra minutes, once your shift is over, until she gives up and goes home.

  18. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

    I’m nervous about the new year from a professional standpoint…

    I am a mid-level supervisor for a special collection of an urban public library system. 2018 will mark 12 years of doing essentially the same job here, and for various reasons, it feels like it’s time to move on and try something else. That being said, I’m comfortable and safe here, with a good salary, great benefits, a favorable schedule, and a short commute.

    There are promotional opportunities to become a branch manager. Since I could use both the change of scenery and the money, I’m thinking about hurrying up and applying for one before the economy inevitably downturns again and the positions dry up. The problem is, the branches in our library system are like the Wild West. The buildings are barely maintained, and the aging technology that patrons rely on is rarely fixed in a timely way; both of those things are also true at the main facility where I work now, but at least here, they get priority to be fixed immediately. I’ll have to work multiple evenings per week and, especially if I’m placed at a far branch, would see my spouse seemingly half as much as I do now. Most problematic is that while there is ample security at the main building, the branches are not provided with any public safety personnel whatsoever, and any urban public library system is full of, well, patrons with many needs. Even if I start at a “good” branch, branch managers are sometimes involuntarily transferred to what some staff colloquially refer to as the “war zone” branches to fill staffing needs. All of the branch’s many problems are going to fall on me, the branch manager, including security. This makes me extremely uncomfortable.

    If I want to move up in this particular system, this is unfortunately the only route I can take. I want to challenge myself in the new year, and this would certainly be one way to do it, but this position would be fraught with problems. My spouse suggests I do an end run around this issue by looking for librarian jobs outside of this system entirely, but I’d almost definitely be looking at a pay cut that we can’t absorb. On the other hand, if I become a branch manager and get a year of real management experience, that might not be true when we ring in 2019. I’m not sure there is an actual question here or if I’m just using a public forum to think out loud, but in any case, thank you all for listening and Happy New Year!

    1. Christy*

      Do you actually want to be a branch manager? It sure doesn’t sound like it to me.

      My wife was a branch manager For 18 months and she hated it. Her situation sounds like yours. How’s the staff at the branches? Hers were challenging, which didn’t help when combined with security and building issues.

      1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

        Thank you for your comment. There are some aspects of being a branch manager that appeal to me, which definitely didn’t come through in what I posted. In a perfect world, I’d love to have the chance to put my imprint on a neighborhood branch. I also think I’ve become good at managing people in the limited opportunity I’ve had so far and wouldn’t mind a further challenge in that area (to answer your question, the staff at our branches are pretty variable; many branches are lovely and a few have some real challenges). But in an imperfect world where I might end up in a very difficult community with limited to no resources, after re-reading my post and the responses I’ve gotten, perhaps I should re-focus this energy in a different way.

    2. AshK434*

      After reading through your description of what being a branch manager in your current system would entail, I would probably seek outside opportunities if I were you. Are there any universities nearby that would offer better positions? A few hospitals near my also have librarians so that could be a possibility.

      1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

        The thing I’m concerned about with academic/university library positions – there are plenty of schools near where I am, not sure how many are hiring – is that I don’t belong to any professional organizations (I know this is a poor attitude that I need to change, but I hate meetings and politics and would rather spend my money in a different way) and have never published anything, which I suspect might be a deal breaker. That and a significant pay cut, which all of the academic positions I’ve seen so far would entail. But I’m certainly going to keep my eyes open anyway. “Special libraries” (such as the hospitals you mentioned) are a great thought – thank you for reminding me of this!

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Look into corporate library positions as well. I knew a few who had great pay, decent benefits, and totally loved their jobs because they were never doing the same thing each day (they work in insurance).

    3. Christy*

      Could you look for jobs outside of the system that have a guaranteed promotion system? My wife took a pay cut to leave her job but is due to make more within a year of starting because she’s on a federal career ladder. “Can’t absorb” probably means that this wouldn’t work, but maybe you could absorb it for a year only.

    4. Temperance*

      My local library system has some branches in really rough areas – so rough that they have to pay for full-time security and the librarians end up reviving people who OD on a weekly basis.

    5. Anon librarian*

      It sounds like you would mostly be in it for the money and it’s probably not worth the many drawbacks you’ve noted here.

      I’m in a similar situation myself where the next logical step is to become a branch manager and I’m unsure if I want to take that when a position does open up.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      My vote is for not doing this. Trust your gut. There are too many things wrong with this picture.
      You have the luxury of time, you can look around and be strategic about what you do next. Dig deeper and look for settings where you think you stand a good chance of success.

    7. Library Manager*

      It sounds like there are more drawbacks for you than advantages–being a library manager is not for everyone. I think back to what Alison says about being promoted to management because you are good at your job and it’s the next step and not because you are a manager, where management is essentially a different job. As a library manager I end up dealing with a lot of stuff that I would not have to consider as a librarian–the building maintenance is a big one, security is another, budgeting, staffing, and there are all kinds of bureaucratic paperwork and politics to go through.
      My system is more responsive to the branches, and I view my position as one where I can make changes happen in my community and in my branch. I relish the chance to work in an area where they really need libraries, and I enjoy the challenges of working with diverse populations. However, I’m at a branch close to where I live, I only work one night a week, and have control over the schedule in case I need to switch. In your system, I imagine the branch managers spend a lot of time running from one crisis to another, which makes it hard to see things from a broader perspective–when you have an OD every day, the roof is leaking, and it is hard to keep staff in place, it is harder to focus on making changes.

      If you want to move on, besides trying special libraries, could you consider a more rural library? Sometimes just outside of major cities there will be smaller, independent systems, where you have fewer of the security problems and have more time to address the various problems that inevitably come up.

      Another suggestion might be to see if there is a way to do a job trade or acting in position with a manager to see what it would actually be like. This is something we do at my system in case of medical leave or when there is a vacancy. It is a good way to see what working at a branch might be like as a manager.

      1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

        Thank you for all of this. I’m not sure a job trade is possible the way our system is set up (extremely bureaucratic) but that sounds like it would be a terrific thought if it were. Moving to work in a rural library is not an option for many reasons… and a former colleague and friend of mine who did says she has the exact same problems in the middle of nowhere as we do in the big city, for what it’s worth. Lots to think about here! But as Not So NewReader mentioned above, I definitely do have the luxury of time.

  19. Teapot Translator*

    On the Christmas open thread, I posted about how I’d been offered a job in my chosen field out of the blue, but didn’t have all the details yet. I now have them. If I choose this job, I would have to accept a pay cut and lose all my benefits (I would be freelance, but with a guaranteed income). So, I’m sad because reasonably, pay cut+no benefits, not a great move; but on the other hand, I would be working full time in my field (and gaining experience). Everyone I’ve discussed this with has said it’s a bad idea. Plus, I recently started a new job (not in my field) because I was made redundant at my old one. I took the job in good faith and stopped my job search immediately.

    So, anyone else ever had to chose between what reason told them and what their heart wanted (professionally)? And what did you decide?

    Thank you to Observer, miyeritari, AnonAndOn and Ramona Flowers for their advice on the previous thread.

    1. Pollygrammer*

      I made one of those impractical moves once, and I don’t regret it. Think about what you’re willing to sacrifice–luxuries, a cheaper living space, etc. (But health insurance definitely can’t be sacrificed no matter what).

      How long would you have to stay in this particular position until you feel like you have enough of a foot in the door in the field? Will there be benefits that don’t exist on paper, like networking, training, mentoring? Is turning it down going to leave you miserable for more than a couple weeks? Have you been at your new job long enough that leaving wouldn’t look terrible, or short enough that you can leave it off your resume? Any way you can fill in with something else part-time to supplement?

      There’s a lot to consider without dismissing it outright as impractical. It definitely might turn out to be TOO impractical, but it might not.

      1. Teapot Translator*

        Thank you for your comment.
        I live in Canada, so while health insurance is not as much of a worry as in other parts in the world, there are a lot of health expenses that I would have to shoulder 100 %.
        This job would give me training and mentoring, which I feel like I really need to assuage some of my “Am I good at this job” fears.
        On the other hand, if I turn down the job, I think I could still freelance for this company (no hard feelings).
        I don’t know why, but I am having an overreaction around this decision (lots of crying today when I’m not much a cryer). I think I’m putting too much weight on this decision, which I always do, but now I have enough distance for some part of me to calmly realize that, while still crying.

        1. Pepsquad*

          Sorry to hear this is really upsetting you. Perhaps it’s too much of a stressful leap to make at this juncture? Or perhaps you feel you would be letting the current company you’re working for down? You mentioned you were made redundant, but didn’t get into the details – is it possible that really kicked your confidence? That would possibly make this a much more stressful decision, especially if you feel like this current company you’re working for ‘saved’ you and now you’re leaving them. I may be entirely projecting, as I think I stayed too long with a bad fit, as the previous company let me go with no warning and severely dented my confidence and my belief in my self-worth.

        2. Pollygrammer*

          Oh, I absolutely agonized over my decision! And after I made my choice, I spent plenty of time kicking myself over it—what if I never worked back up to real security again? I am a fairly neurotic person, and I don’t make big decisions easily.

          Could you ask about freelancing for a while before moving to full time, framing it as you’d be thrilled to work with them but like to transition out of your current role as effectively as possible?

        3. Not So NewReader*

          It’s one of those so near and yet so far decisions, “it’s near where I want to be but so far from what I need right now…”

          It’s very important to remember that this is not the last job on earth. It could be an indicator that the tide is turning in your life and something even better will appear.

          Your solution maybe to freelance for this company while staying at current job. While not ideal, it’s not forever, either.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            It’s very important to remember that this is not the last job on earth. It could be an indicator that the tide is turning in your life and something even better will appear.

            This. I personally wouldn’t take the job (the no benefits thing is a deal breaker for me, especially when you have a job that’s giving you said benefits now), but would see this as my ability to get a similar one in due time – I would wait it out and keep applying elsewhere to see what I could get.

            Your solution maybe to freelance for this company while staying at current job.

            This. I would look into whether or not this is a workable solution for both companies. Never sacrifice your 80 for a 20.

    2. Brigitha*

      If you don’t take this Freelance job now … how likely is it that you’ll have other opportunities to work in this field? Can you freelance part time around your current New Job? Can you continue applying for other jobs in your desired field, and is it reasonable that you could get one with better pay/benefits with your current level of experience? Or maybe teach a workshop or find a volunteer position in your desired field? How much of a lifestyle change/strain will a pay and benefit cut like this mean? Do you trust the other people telling you this is a bad deal with other opinions about this desired field?

      Sorry, that’s a lot of questions, but answering some might help you figure out the right move here. Good Luck!

    3. AshK434*

      Can you reasonably do both? You said the job in your chosen field is freelance so I’m assuming the hours could fit your schedule. Do you have the bandwidth or desire to juggle that? That way, you could get the best of both worlds, benefits and a job in your field.

      1. Teapot Translator*

        Unfortunately, both jobs are full time during the day, so I couldn’t do both of them. :( That would have been nice.

    4. Pepsquad*

      I guess it depends on whether you can afford the pay cut. If you took this job for say a year would it lead to you getting paid within the industry at a more reasonable rate? If it’s officially freelance I guess you can keep looking. If you have savings and can afford to do this then I’d consider taking the leap but are you doing yourself a disservice – this job has been offered – if you actually applied or checked with your network could you get something better ?
      If you were going to take it I’d try and make sure you know as much as possible about the company so you’re not jumping from one short term thing to another although with it being freelance you could also keep looking.
      I’m kinda thinking you might regret not taking it but that’s only if you’re not well established in your industry and are desperate to get an entry point. Otherwise this isn’t a great offer – and only do this if know a lot about the culture, can afford to and are looking around for something else.

      1. Teapot Translator*

        I accepted a full time job recently and, in good conscience, I couldn’t look for another job without giving the full time job a chance (this job is not in my chosen field). My plan was to see after 6 months if I liked it; if not, I could then look for another job. If I liked it, then I would stay 2 years to honour my commitment (this is all in my head, there’s nothing in writing).
        I do feel like I need to establish myself in my chosen field. Maybe I should pass on this opportunity and take the time to put a lot of savings aside so that when I choose to go freelance, I can do it from a more secure position.
        Thank you for your comment. It helps me analyze my situation.

    5. Ramona Flowers*

      I can’t remember what I said before, so I’ll give you the advice my husband gave me when I was deciding about my current job. Ask yourself this: which opportunity will make you look back and wonder ‘what if’ if you don’t take it?

    6. AnonAndOn*

      You’re welcome! I hope you find the answers you’re looking for in regard to making a decision about this job.

    7. ..Kat..*

      One thing to help decide is to make a budget of your current expenses plus additional expenses that you would have to pay because this job has no benefits. Can you meet these expenses at the offered pay? Would you have enough left over for a cushion for unexpected expenses?

  20. Elisabeth*

    Are any of you freelancers / career wafflers that can give me advice? I’d been freelance writing successfully for several years when I got freaked out because of health insurance / stability / tbh a little lonely at home and I applied for a few jobs.

    I ended up at a government project management job and it’s super not for me. I knew it from day one. I miss freelancing SO MUCH. It’s not a bad job but every day I go in I want to cry. I desperately want to quit but I feel awful because I really fill an important role here (it’s been a year) and the people really aren’t bad. Plus the benefits are pretty decent although the pay is meh.

    I also know I’m such a job hopper. Freelancing was perfect for this bc I could always find new work – I just desperately wish I hadn’t even bothered looking at full time jobs! (I was originally looking for part time staff writer roles that would provide steady income and this just kind of fell into my lap). All of my other positions have been 2 years or less – for good reasons. (Got an AMAZING job offer at my dream job…then moved cross country) but I’ve been freelancing for 5 years. I’m just scared if I ever really do need a full time job they’ll see my resume and say no.

    Are there any other creative types that have struggled to commit to the freelancing plunge? I’m really struggling and desperate for any advice!

    1. Pepsquad*

      I’m in a both similar and opposite position, in that I’ve left a full time job which I hated but felt I should have and am now considering freelancing. However will need another role to support me doing this. I stayed at my role 2 years because I believed that my resume looked too much like job hopping. But realistically it probably doesn’t and I was miserable and later became sick in my role. Firstly the org will recover they’ll hire someone else – I learnt that immediately they sought two new ppl when I left when previously I’d been told if I stayed we’d get no further help.
      Secondly freelancing for five years is commitment. Do you have a company name, do you have regular clients (or did you)? Most people see being a freelancer as being hard, and to build up enough work to support yourself takes dedication, drive and skill – as well as discipline. That’s not being flighty. You originally wanted a part-time role – Could you look at that again? Or could you for instance join an organisation or board – to give you a long term commitment? Don’t stay in a job you dislike to satisfy some resume ‘should’ especially when you had 5 years as freelance and 2 years before that. Alternatively would this role consider you moving to part time or reduced hours?

      1. Elisabeth*

        I’ve thought about part-time or reduced hours. They have a lot of contractors. I just worry that with only one year’s experience (in this role), they wouldn’t even consider the option. But I suppose if I present it as “I’m leaving one way or another, but I’m willing to keep on as a contractor” (but with more wordsmithing…!) they might be willing to entertain me. Sounds like a good question for the next open thread!

        1. Pepsquad*

          Whatever you decide, I don’t think a year looks like job-hopping, it’s a significant amount of time to discover that a job isn’t right for you, or at least the way it currently works isn’t for you.

    2. Elizabeth West*

      I just can’t, not yet. I don’t have enough experience doing freelance work to make enough to afford ACA and I do need health insurance at my age. My blood-red state did not expand Medicaid so as a single adult with no kids, I am not eligible no matter how little I make. Plus I would need to be making enough to pay someone to help me with the financial stuff (thanks a lot, dyscalculia :P).

      My dream is to write books all day, but I only know one published writer who does that and doesn’t have a day job and he’s been doing it for over twenty years and has multiple irons in the fire. And he doesn’t make much more than I did at Exjob.

      However, I have some freelancing stuff on my resume, and I HAVE been asked about it by employers, so I think many of them do think of it as actual work. I wish I had more so it looked like I’ve been doing something. I tend to stay in jobs for an average of four years unless something happens, but I don’t think a year is too short.

  21. Guacamole Bob*

    Do we get to find out how Snark inadvertently bought an AK-47 today, or do we have to wait for the weekend open thread?

    2. Snark*

      I lol’d, because I forgot I’d brought that up today. Uh…well, I was traveling for my research in grad school. Is that close enough to job related for today?

    3. Foreign Octopus*

      I’m sorry. What?

      How did I miss this?

      (And I’m also not surprised that this happened to Snark, of all people.)

      1. Snark*

        It was just in passing – regarding the person whose business travel had been increased to once or twice a month yesterday, and someone posted something about jeeez it’s no big deal OP, suck it up. I posted something like, I love to travel, I have weird stuff happen traveling, I once inadvertantly bought an AK-47, and monthly business travel STILL sucks.

    6. Snark*

      So here we go. It was in grad school, I was drawing a salary to be there, it’s job-related enough.

      My research was on soil microbial communities, and I had field sites in various mountain ranges, the Peruvian Andes being one of them. We stayed in a little town with like 250 people in it and nearly as many alpacas, situated near a pass at like 17,000 feet, along with some homesick Peruvian Army (or possibly some kind of national police?) fellows who ran a checkpoint. Almost everybody from the area spoke Quechua, Spanish was everyone’s second language, and life was sufficiently hard there that drinking was the preferred coping mechanism, social activity, and pastime when the wind cranked up to 60mph. One drink at 17,000 feet is completely suffient to make even a large fellow with a tolerance a bit loopy.

      So one late afternoon when it was actually sunny and pleasant out, I was enjoying one of our last beers and the warmth when I heard gunshots coming from near the checkpoint, and lots of laughing. I walked down there, and the soldiers were annihilating empty bottles with an assault rifle, as one will. I wandered over and asked if I could take a turn. The inherent danger of hanging out with drunken persons armed with assault rifles and a language barrier did not occur to me.

      The sergeant, who was like 19 but very proud of being in charge, said that ammunition and guns were very expensive, senor, and of course it was his responsibility not to waste government funds. We all stood there for a moment, contemplating the irony of that, while he quietly but visibly panicked that I would point out the obvious. I shrugged and pulled out some sols, offered to purchase the “items” I used – since I couldn’t remember the word for bullets – everybody visibly relaxed, and haggling started.

      Now, at the time, it was something like 0.25 sols to the dollar, but….well, my mental math skills deteriorate with hypoxia and drunkenness, so I quickly argued myself up to something like $25, thinking that I was in the $5 or so range. Money changed hands, and Sarge went over to his motely arsenal, selected the oldest and most battered AK-47, and handed it to me. Beer bottles were obliterated, everyone was quite merry, and as the sun set we all got ready to go inside. I handed back the rifle.

      “Oh, no, no, senor, es tuyo.”

      “¿es mio?”

      “Si….? Te pertenece, por supuesto, lo compraste.”

      “….oh.”

      *much laughter*

      And that’s how I inadvertantly bought an AK-47.

        1. Snark*

          My friend’s comment, on first hearing this story: “See, the thing is….this is exactly the kind of translation error that anybody traveling runs into. It’s just that you somehow mananged to take it to the most ridiculous possible extreme.”

          And my wife, without skipping a beat, is like, “And knowing him, this surprises you why?”

          1. Teapot Librarian*

            Yeah, I bought two sweaters having mistranslated the sign as “two for the price of one” when it was really something like “buy two and we’ll upsell you on jeans.” Ending up with an AK-47 really just takes it to the next level.

          2. neverjaunty*

            Thank you for this comment, because your story sounds EXACTLY like something my husband would have done.

      2. Grad Student*

        This is delightful and I am laughing aloud–and glad everything turned out well! Thank you for sharing.

      4. Not that Anne, the other Anne*

        That’s one of the best “lost in translation” business travel stories I’ve heard recently. It definitely beats my Hot Pink Hotel Room.

        Thanks for sharing!

          1. Not that Anne, the other Anne*

            It’s not nearly as good, where good is defined as involving the inadvertent purchase of assault rifles. However, it’s good enough to be requested to be retold at most office discussions of “crazy business travel stories”, much as I suspect yours is. Everyone needs at least one of those.

            Maybe I’ll tell it on the weekend open thread.

  22. Talia*

    I’ve mentioned Mr. Classified Job here once before, but I would like to invite you to continue to boggle at him with me. I don’t actually work with him, so I don’t need advice, but every time he talks to me about his job I feel like I’m reading an AAM letter from the perspective of the problem employee, so I wanted to share.

    Previously mentioned: He has a Classified Job which he is very proud of, which causes him to have many enemies and which is so secret that he’s technically not even supposed to tell people that he can’t talk about his job, but this job didn’t give him a cover story of any kind. He also can’t date “foreign nationals” (but was fine with the prospect of one as a roommate).

    New: all the “girls at work” hate him. He doesn’t seem to see this as a problem of any kind; indeed, he sounded rather amused by it. (There are no women on his team. At all.) He also went on a long rant about how everyone in a few other departments is currently angry at him, supposedly for things he has no control over and had nothing to do with and it must be because they see him as a symbol for decisions that were out of his hands.

    Since his job appears to follow the academic schedule of the Big Local University where he works, I’m waiting for it to turn out that he’s actually in IT or something and has no classified at all about it.

    1. hermit crab*

      Ha, I love how he’s bragging about how he’s not allowed to tell you things (while telling you about them) and also telling you all sorts of details about his supposedly secret colleagues.

      1. Snark*

        I’ve actually known people with Secret and Top Secret clearances, and [SPOILER ALERT] they have about NINE THOUSAND TIMES more chill than this dweeb.

        1. Talia*

          Oh, people with clearances are a dime a dozen in this town. He’s the only one I’ve met who acts like this about it.

    3. Fiennes*

      This sounds like the infamous “mall cop” who spent so much time online insisting that civilians could have no idea how much danger was involved in patrolling the Rocky Mountain Chocolate Factory.

    5. only acting normal*

      Research universities can sometimes do classified work, so…
      But yeah, the “enemies” associated with classified work aren’t supposed to be your colleagues. :D

      1. Talia*

        Oh, this one definitely has classified work in its research programs– it’s known to work with Homeland Security. But I can’t imagine people on those projects are out in an open room where people with non-secure work can hear them like he says he is. Classified stuff is worked on in vaults. He claims that the people not on his team are not on the classified projects and can hear everything they say.

    6. Suddenly Free*

      Hmm. At our local college they post jobs as either “Faculty” or “Classified,” the latter meaning support staff.

      1. Snark*

        ……oh god what if he doesn’t know? What if he was hired for a “classified position” and he thought it was sekrit spy shit! AAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    7. Mints*

      Oh god I know a guy like this! He works at Lockheed and whenever someone asks “What do you do there?” he’s incapable of saying something mundane he’s always hemming and hawing and then “It’s classified” which is bonkers because I knew someone else who worked at Lockheed who said that he worked on satellite software which sounds true enough and it’s boring enough that nobody asked follow up questions.
      The annoying guy ALSO takes pride in being prickly Mr Tell-It-Like-It-Is especially to women.
      These personality traits sure seem correlated.

      1. Plague of frogs*

        Reminds me of a guy at my mom’s church who, when she asked him what he did for a living, looked down his nose at her and said, “You couldn’t possibly understand it.” Turns out he is an electrical engineer. Now, my mom isn’t an electrical engineer, but her father, sister, and daughter are. We have all told her about our jobs, and she certainly has no trouble understanding.

        1. Mints*

          Ha! Electrical Engineer is a job that people have heard of. Even if the details are way beyond their understanding, those are normal sounding jobs

        2. Not So NewReader*

          When I asked a friend’s husband, he answered with, “It’s complicated. You wouldn’t understand.”

          I said, “You’re probably right.” And I walked away. I was going to explain that was rude but then I realized, the explanation was complicated and he probably wouldn’t understand.

  23. Violinist on the Titanic*

    I tend to lurk here, but I need some help. I feel like I’m working on the Titanic as a musician. Literally all of my co-workers at my level have left/ been replaced in the past year. Most people are leaving indirectly/ directly because of bad management, and administrations LOVES. Administration is not seeing the big picture, and I’m alone, in a place where I can’t easily leave like the others.

    Here’s the kicker for me, administration keeps messing up other people’s schedules, and them writing up the person for the issue. More people are going to move on, as they get reprimanded for other people messing up. And we will be shorter staffed. If I bring this up, I am told it is hard to do the schedule and none of my business. I feel like if I’m the one person who can fill the gaps, so it is my business. I can’t plan to do anything on work time, because what I’m scheduled to do will change daily. I’m making errors and missing other tasks because I’m required to step in for other people and do their tasks manning a public facing desk. This will hurt us as we are a tax payer funded organization. As we make missteps, it looks bad and support from the community depends on us being there when needed.

    We are down two full time and one part time people in a 5 person department (3 full time, 2 part time). There is no urgency to fill those positions, and the other part time person and myself have said we can not take on anymore responsibilities. We get platitudes of “you are doing a great job/ we will fill those positions soon/ the work load will lessen” but one full time person left in July, and has not been replaced. The other two have left in the past month, and we were promised they will be replaced by the summer.

    Any advice on a rare slow Friday to help keep me afloat??

    1. fposte*

      Yikes! At least the musicians on the Titanic weren’t told they had to handle the dining rooms and the engine rooms. When you say you can’t easily leave, is it because your job history is spotty enough that you don’t want to move on quickly, or because there aren’t that many jobs of this type in your area, or something else? Because I think that’s the thing you have the most control over here, so I’d go back to reconsider that.

      1. Violinist on the Titanic*

        I can’t easily leave because while there are full time jobs in my area they pay a lot less, and have less benefits, especially sick leave and vacation time . I would leave for the right job, and have applied to a few positions with no success. It doesn’t help that I’ve been at my current employer for most of my professional life, and have few supervisors from the past in my current field. I also have family close, and moving out of the area is not a real option. I am always looking for better jobs, and next year might be my tipping point, as salary and benefits become less important than my sanity.

    2. chica*

      You say you can’t easily leave, but why? Please look carefully at your skills, commute, $$$, whatever you think the issue is and at least try to leave. Your job sucks and is not going to get any better. You can change your attitude about it (not be so invested, if that’s possible! remind yourself that this is NOT you, and you cannot fix it!). Or you can change your job. Please look at the possibility of changing your job. There are many many stories here of people who thought that they couldn’t leave for whatever reason who eventually left toxicjob and are now happily employed in a normal job, they got a raise or better benefits, and are treated like actual people. Please try!

      1. Violinist on the Titanic*

        I’m kind of having a little mental crisis at work now. It’s kind of clear that 2018 should be my year of disconnect and get out. Currently my reasons for staying mostly tie to family, and location. However, it would not be impossible to leave, again for the right opportunity, with the stakes lowering exponentially. Due to insurance reasons, I’m not going to quit without something on the line, and me leaving will not be earth shattering to anyone. Thanks for your clear thinking both chica and fposte!

  24. Junebug*

    I’m planning to try to move up within my current company next summer, but I think they may lowball me because I’ll be an internal candidate. If they do and won’t budge when I try to negotiate, would it be a bad idea to accept and then start job hunting externally after a year?

    For background, I tried to negotiate (rather hesitantly, as the offer was pulled the only other time I’ve tried) the salary for my current position, but the HR rep told me that she’d never seen a higher offer and they wouldn’t go any higher. I accepted because my old workplace was a dumpster fire and the offer was still a significant raise, but recently I found out that two of my coworkers who were hired around the same time are being paid 20% more for the same work than two other coworkers who were internal candidates and me. If it matters, the two higher – paid coworkers are both men, I’m a woman, and one of the lower – paid coworkers is a man who I doubt wouldn’t have tried to negotiate. I’m a grad student with several years of unrelated work experience and will have a much higher earning potential once I’m close to graduating, hence why I want to start applying for those jobs sooner rather than later, but I don’t want to be undervalued in my first one as I know that could put me on a lower trajectory long term.

    Also, my performance review is next week and my supervisor has had nothing but positive things to say about my work. Should I try to negotiate a raise based on my performance and the higher – paid coworkers?

    1. [insert witty user name here]*

      It is ALWAYS OK to job hunt. Unless you sign a contract, you have made no guarantees to your employer to stay for a certain amount of time.

      You absolutely should make a case for getting a merit based raise, but you need to leave the higher-paid coworkers out of it. However – does your company have salary bands for your positions? Do you have any way to get this information? You want to try to be at least the mid-point of your salary band and that’s what you should target. Or, if you’re at the upper end of a salary band, make a case for moving up to the next higher labor category (ie, Senior Teapot Designer, instead of just Teapot Designer).

      1. Junebug*

        I’m not sure- is this something it’s normal to ask HR? And out of curiosity, why would mentioning the disparate salaries be a bad thing to do?

        1. Jadelyn*

          I wouldn’t mention the disparate salaries, since that raises the question of how you know that, and it can put your employer on the defensive because they may take it as an implied accusation of unfair pay. As far as asking for salary band information, it…depends on organizational culture. Some orgs don’t share that, but others believe in salary transparency and do share that info freely.

          Just be aware that if you do ask, that’s going to put someone on notice that you’re looking critically at your salary, which they may interpret as a sign that you’re leaving or at least considering your options, so it may prompt some other questions about why you’re asking. Be ready with an answer to those – I’d probably just say, I’m looking at the long-term earning potential in this role, to assuage fears that you’re about to leave.

            1. AAM fan*

              There’s a lot of info on AAM about this very question. I don’t have a link, but do a search and it should pop up quickly. My memory is that talking about others’ salaries is not considered a strong argument, but then maybe being a woman paid much less than a man triggers discrimination considerations? I know Alison has talked about both of these issues recently. Good luck!

            2. Jadelyn*

              If you have a wide professional network, you could try asking people in similar roles/career levels how much they make – phrase it carefully, cause some people get weird about being asked that – to see what’s market for your role/industry/region.

              There’s also payscale and glassdoor, which have salary calculators where you can put in your title, years of experience, education, location, etc. and get back a range for similar people in similar roles – and assuming you’re in the US, you can check BLS OES (government wage surveys) data, which you can filter down by region.

  25. Jen RO*

    I wanted to give a little update for the people who offered advice regarding my friend’s report (low performer who is really trying, but nowhere near where he is supposed to be; he also claims ADHD but doesn’t seem to be doing anything about it). I wanted to help her with suggestions on how to help him succeed. Two things happened in the meantime:
    * She gave him a 0% raise and told him that his performance was the cause. He said he knows that he has not been performing as expected.
    * She met with our boss who recommended the same thing you guys did: one more shot at helping him succeed (starting a daily checklist of tasks, checklists for the steps of each task, etc) and then managing him out. (Firing someone is very difficult because the legislation here is pro-employee; in general, it’s easier to have a frank conversation with the person and ask them to look for a new job.)

    Other than that… I’m in the middle of a 2-week holiday and I’m enjoying the hell out of it. I got Rise of the Tomb Raider for Christmas, I’m finishing the Portal games I had bought a while ago, Black Mirror just came out and the cats are cute and cuddly. Life is good!

  26. anonymous for this*

    What do you do if you see the writing on the wall? Im a bit in over my head in a small company handling accounting stuff with a system that doesnt work. I spend all of my time trying to get reports to match vs analysing things. I know my boss isnt happy. This is my first corporate job in over 20 years. Help?

    1. Former Retail Manager*

      Are reports not matching due to human error or because the system is flawed? If the system is flawed, I’d ask a peer how they do it. I’d also see if you can ask a peer how the person in that position before you did the job. If there is an issue with the system, I’d be straightforward with your boss and admit that you did not intend to spend so much time just getting reports to reconcile, but the system threw up some roadblocks for you, and ask if they have any suggestions for you, or better yet, come with some suggestions of your own if you have any. Maybe they don’t care if reports are off by a few dollars/hundred/thousands…..I’ve seen that at some small & mid-size companies.

      I think most importantly, you should admit that you know you haven’t met expectations recently, cite your challenges, propose solutions if you have them, and clarify their expectations of you, if needed. And then move forward. Keep the lines of communication open. If the reconciliation issue can’t be resolved, then I’d just tell the boss that there isn’t time to both reconcile the reports and perform the analysis and inquire as to which he’d like you to focus on.

      Best of luck!

      1. anonymous for this*

        system is flawed because the person who created it was not competant. Person I replaced was let go because he couldnt not handle system upgrade. Reports are off substantially in many cases (think, P&L not listing a major account) kind of stuff. In every other way, this is an ideal job and I HATE to feel so defeated by it but it just seems like the issues Im having are not really in my control. Had my review and boss said I needed to be more agressive with programmers. er. ok?

        1. JeanB in NC*

          I was in that kind of a situation and frankly, what I did was just start over fresh. I got the last audited financial statements, used that as a starting point, and just re-entered all the transactions after that point. Now granted that wouldn’t work with a huge company (I work for a small private school), but the amount of time I spent arguing with the old system was ridiculous.

    2. chica*

      if you can see it’s not a good fit, you start looking around for another job. You can also address it with your boss honestly (“this system is very challenging, how did the previous person handle this?” “what are the expectations?”) But if you are getting the vibe that this is not working out, then start looking now

  27. Roseberriesmaybe*

    Just wondering what I should have done differently here…I was volunteering at one of the games of a children’s fun fair. It was a certain amount for one go, and a reduced amount for 3 goes. A woman came up with 4 kids and tried to give me less than it was for 3 goes, saying I could give her a deal. I told her I was a volunteer (with the meaning of ‘I don’t want to rip off the man whose likelihood this is’) to which she replied, ‘So it won’t be a problem’. I let them go and told the owner, but I still feel uncomfortable with it. What should I have said or done differently? There was a big queue behind her and I didn’t want to embarrass her in front of her kids

    1. Antti*

      I’ve found the only way to deal with customers who are being blatantly unreasonable is to just hold firm and stick to the facts of the matter, i.e. “I’m sorry, I cannot give you a special deal. The price for 3 goes is $XX.XX, will you be buying this today?”. Assuming you know owner would back you up on that, anyway. And then if there’s really a problem from there, manager/owner/etc. can hash it out. Your volunteer status isn’t germane to the situation.

      And if it helps, she should be embarrassed. It’s the natural consequence of trying to pull a stunt like that. You’re not responsible for guarding her pride or for her emotional well-being.

    2. Matilda Jefferies*

      I think you did the right thing. If the woman’s family is getting four goes and only paying for 3 (or 2.5), the cost to the owner is probably pennies, or less. Most cost structures have enough flexibility built in to cover this kind of discrepancy, usually dozens of times over. So I wouldn’t worry about ripping off the owner for that amount. I can guarantee it made more of a financial difference to the woman and her children, than it did to him!

      The only thing I think you could do for next time is to do something now, before it comes up. Go back to the owner and ask him how he would like you to handle it, if the situation comes up again. Unless he’s Ebenezer Scrooge, chances are that he’ll tell you not to worry about it. No way he wants to see a bunch of crying children at his fair, over the cost of a dollar or two.

    3. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

      When I was cashiering (paid, not volunteering) and people tried to do things like that, I would say the customer would need to talk to the manager because I didn’t have the authority to do that and just stick to “Sorry, I can’t do that” and direct them to the manager if they pushed. It seemed to work pretty well. (The job was pretty independent for a cashiering job in most respects, but my managers were very comfortable with us punting to them for that sort of thing.)

      Also, I kind of doubt that she didn’t have the money. The use of the word “deal” (if she did use that word) reminds me of some of the customers I dealt with at that job who were really just trying to manipulate their way into spending less money. (And, yeah, I didn’t know their financial situations, but there’s an “I don’t quite have enough money but I desperately want this thing and am hoping for kindness” vibe and an “I just want to manipulate someone” vibe. They are not the same.)

    4. Pollygrammer*

      She tried to give you the money BEFORE trying to confirm it was okay? I’m a lot less sympathetic there than I would be for somebody who asked (nicely) “is there any way I can pay for just three of the kids?”

      “You can give me a deal” leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I might have caved in the moment too though.

    5. Pepsquad*

      I think this is where you use the broken record approach and keep stating the price and particulars and says you don’t have authority/permission to arrange, she can always talk to the manager – he’ll be back at x. You are also allowed to say sorry I’m not able to do that.

    7. Jessica*

      I would recommend cheerily saying, “The prices are listed on the wall, please pay or step aside for the next party!” on repeat while ignoring any further attempts to negotiate. If she tries to cause trouble, ask her if you need to call security. You’re not embarrassing her in front of her kids, she’s embarrassing herself.

      1. Mints*

        I like to give difficult people these sort of choices too. Like “I can issue the check for the one you have paperwork for, or you can wait until next week for both when you have paperwork for both.” Like I’m still saying no but it feels a little better to give some semblance of choice even if it’s variations of no

    8. Not So NewReader*

      If this was for charity, I would say, “aww, it’s for cancer/homeless pets/starving children, I can’t take money out of their mouths.” Play the guilt card.

      If you thought the woman had a tight budget, perhaps you could have countered with “for x amount, everyone gets two tries”.

      If you want to just end the conversation, then say, “I am sorry I am not authorized to make any changes in pricing. You will have to talk to the manager and he will inform me what he wants me to do.”

    9. Dzhymm*

      “So, which one of your kids is not worth paying for? The one you love the most, or the one you love the least?”

  28. NaoNao*

    OneNote Power Users! Please give me your best tips! I’m planning on suggesting my team use OneNote as a one stop place to track our dozens of separate initiatives and goals and projects and plans and development, all in one place, and while of course I’ll do my own research and play around, I’d love to get those handy “secret” tips from power users!
    Thanks in advance :)

    1. Footiepjs*

      I am not a power user in the slightest, but one thing I would do straight off is have everyone go in the settings for the program and look at how backups are handled – how often it backs up notebooks and how many are retained. Sections in notebooks can get corrupted and there’s not really anything one can do about it except grab the backup and upload that version to the cloud.

    2. NoodleMara*

      Linking! Using the linking functions to reference other pages with info. I dont personally use it but I know of some people who do and love it

  29. Junebug*

    I’m planning to try to move up within my current company next summer, but I think they may lowball me because I’ll be an internal candidate. If they do and won’t budge when I try to negotiate, would it be a bad idea to accept and then start job hunting externally after a year?

    For background, I tried to negotiate (rather hesitantly, as the offer was pulled the only other time I’ve tried) the salary for my current position, but the HR rep told me that she’d never seen a higher offer and they wouldn’t go any higher. I accepted because my old workplace was a dumpster fire and the offer was still a significant raise, but recently I found out that two of my coworkers who were hired around the same time are being paid 20% more for the same work than two other coworkers who were internal candidates and me. If it matters, the two higher – paid coworkers are both men, I’m a woman, and one of the lower – paid coworkers is a man who I doubt wouldn’t have tried to negotiate. I’m a grad student with several years of unrelated work experience and will have a much higher earning potential once I’m close to graduating, hence why I want to start applying for those jobs sooner rather than later, but I don’t want to be undervalued in my first one as I know that could put me on a lower trajectory long term.

    Also, my performance review is next week and my supervisor has had nothing but positive things to say about my work. Should I try to negotiate a raise based on my performance and the higher – paid coworkers?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      The advice I have read here is to negotiate using the current rate for your area. You can use your performance along with the market rates.

  30. Covered in beeees*

    I have a resume question that is somewhat related to the one that Now What? posted. Like them, I was let go from a job after only a short time there (in my case, two months). I don’t plan on listing it on my resume in any future job searches, but the wrinkle is that I returned to my old job when I got let go. The timeline looks something like this: 2 years at Job A, 2 months at Job B, one month job searching, 9 months at Job A, and now I’m at Job C. How should I display this on my resume? Should I show the 3 month interruption in my employment at Job A, or just use my first start date and last end date?

    1. Jen RO*

      I would show the gap as well. I think it’s too risky otherwise – people may think you were trying to mislead them. Maybe list the job as:
      Job A
      January 2007 – January 2009
      March 2009 – October 2009

      1. Covered in beeees*

        That’s what I was leaning towards. Ideally, there would be a way to leave Job B off my resume that ensured that hiring managers didn’t ask about the gap, but since there isn’t it’s better to be more accurate.

  31. KatieKate*

    “In 150 characters or fewer, tell us what makes you unique. Try to be creative and say something that will catch our eye!*”

    Uhhhh help? This is for an events manager job application. I have no idea what they are looking for.

    1. GhostCat*

      If you were put up against a candidate with similar skills and experience, what is something that would make you stand out or would make you more qualified for the position? I find these questions kind of ridiculous because it’s hypothetical but I think they want to see what you can bring to the table using your own words.

    3. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Ugh, questions like this annoy me so much. I try to imagine the answer to Alison’s “magic question” (what makes someone good versus exceptional in the role) and summarize that in one sentence about myself.

      For events management, I would think this is about anticipating needs, being flexible and adept at making quick on-the-fly decisions, keeping your calm in the face of extreme stress, being meticulous and incredibly detail-oriented, etc.

    4. Matilda Jefferies*

      All work and no play makes KatieKate a dull girl?

      Kidding, obviously, don’t do this either. But honestly, it’s such a ridiculous suggestion that I would have a hard time taking it seriously! The only problem, of course, is that you’ll be competing against people who probably did take it seriously, which means you have to as well if you want the job. Ugh.

      Dear employers: don’t do this. It’s not a helpful way to analyze or screen candidates, unless you’re screening for pre-2017 Twitter users.

    7. Pollygrammer*

      #1: ughhh, that’s a really annoying question
      #2: I would try to come up with a story, and use it to illustrate a point. Have you ever done something super resourceful or found a really creative solution for something?

    8. NaoNao*

      I’d go with either a gushing quote from a “customer” ala “KatieKatie made our event memorable, seamless, fun, and touching, all under our tiny budget!” or I’d go with your “tag line” like “KatieKatie events are for making memories.” or “A KatieKatie event is the bright spot in a lifetime of memories” or “Perfect moments make perfect memories: KatieKatie events” 150 characters is not a lot, so include your name, what makes you stand out in one or two words, and something that is memorable and catchy. So easy, right? /s

    10. nep*

      I like to memorize Shakespeare soliloquies.
      (Any unique hobby or talent you’ve got — not necessarily related to the gig?)
      Just a thought.

      1. nep*

        Thinking on this more — I reckon it would be better to give them something that is relevant and shows why you’re the best one for the job. Something you do / a way you handle things that over time you’ve seen sets you apart from others.

    11. KatieKate*

      Update: I sent in a limrick. A poem application once got me into college, so let’s see if it works here

      1. Plague of frogs*

        Awesome! My brother and I used to write work-related limericks to each other (instead of actually, you know, working). Here is my favorite, after a rough day with some test equipment:

        “Though I like these new innovations,”
        Said the engineer in consternation,
        “I have to confess it,
        The tester can’t test it,
        And my life is full of frustration.”

    12. Arjay*

      I want to use my skills to create an awesome 500 person sit-down dinner that would exceed the expectations of both Judge Judy and Martha Stewart.

    13. Mints*

      I think I’ve mostly answered paraphrases from my “Profile” on things like this. Like “Recent grad from UCLA with a background in customer service, and experience in logistics.” It doesn’t sound like a “fun question” to me

  32. Courtney*

    I’m officially done with the last semester of classes for my degree, and I’ll officially be graduating with high distinction! I enjoy school (I better, since I’m going into education!) but am proud of myself for pulling off the high distinction taking 18 hours a semester with two toddlers at home and all the normal adult stuff to take care of. I know this m is kind of a brag, but I needed to share the good news somewhere! This is especially a huge relief since I’m the letter writer from earlier this year who managed to have a year of bad grades from a decade ago retroactively withdrawn from my transcript. Student teaching begins in a week and a half, and I’m a mix of nerves and excitement!

    Any good book recommendations for teachers? I’m doing secondary ELA. Currently reading The First Days of School and re-reading the literature I’ll be teaching this semester.

    1. Julianne*

      Read some stuff that the kids you’re teaching might be reading for fun! It’s great to be able to talk to students as one reader to another reader.

      1. Courtney*

        Great point! Fortunately, I am a huge fan of young adult lit so I think I’m set there. This is one of those times it’s to my advantage that I still love books meant for teens even though I haven’t been one in a decade, haha.

    3. Almost Violet Miller*

      Congratulations!
      I can’t recommend you anything unfortunately as I am in a different field but I wanted to say how great your comment/update is!

    4. New Bee*

      Congratulations! Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria is a good one. Teach Like a Champion is commonly recommended, though I think it’s efficacy depends a lot on the culture of your school.

      1. Courtney*

        I’ll check them out, thank you! My minor is psych and I focused on behavioral psych, often specifically around prejudice, so I’m hopeful that will also help me with some of the issues discussed in the first book you listed.

    5. CA Teacher*

      Our ELA teachers like “Read Like A Professor,” I also love “Culturally Responsive Teaching,” by Geneva Gay. Congrats!

  33. Beatrice*

    Does anyone have any tips on softening language when you really need to be pedantic about something, or a really great script for advocating for precise language?

    We’re undergoing major process/system changes at my company. We have some right-hand-doesn’t-know-what-the-left-hand-is-doing going on with process design, and I’m finding that the exact same thing goes by 2 or 3 or 6 different names, depending on who’s talking. We’re stumbling over communication because what one group calls a teapot spout, another group calls a pouring tube, and another group calls a liquid tea evacuation point. Sometimes it’s just semantics and I can understand what someone is talking about without clarifying, but often I can’t – either because someone who doesn’t understand the details is using legitimately wrong terminology, or because I’m honestly not certain that we’re talking about the same thing and clarity is critical.

    For example, now I have a problem with the term “TPS Form”. We’ve used TPS Forms for years to document routine operations changes, but with the changes, it’s recently become necessary to start using them to document certain personnel changes as well (if someone is entering/exiting a role that requires a change in certain system authority levels). HR has embraced the change and they’re beginning to send the forms now, but someone somewhere in corporate HR started calling it a “Personnel Authority Change Form” or “PAC Form”, and suddenly that is the name they are all using. Now my team is getting these forms from six different HR groups calling it a PAC Form, but a dozen other groups are sending in TPS Forms to document other access/authority/settings changes, and it’s the same form and needs to follow the same general process (intake/approval/execution). I’m finding myself re-educating a bunch of site-level HR folks – most of whom have never interacted with me before – by saying “thank you for submitting the form; by the way, I know your leadership has been calling it a PAC Form, but I need you to stop using that name and start calling it a TPS Form, because that is the correct name.” I hate that my first contact with some of these people is correcting a terminology problem they didn’t even personally create, but I’m worried that if I let it slide even once, the confusion will fester. (I’ve contacted corporate HR about helping me fix the problem, and they’ve agreed to…twice…and yet it keeps happening…)

    The above situation crops up a dozen times a day. Most of them, individually, aren’t a big enough deal to raise a stink about, but collectively, they pose a risk of death by a thousand cuts, as we’re all working to get our arms around all our recent changes.

    I feel like I have a pretty good handle on when I need to correct these things and when I need to let them go, so I don’t need help with that… What I’m struggling with is that I need to correct them VERY often right now, because so much is new to everyone, and I need to have people take clarity seriously, but I’m worried about developing a reputation as a difficult, pedantic person.

    1. NW Mossy*

      It feels to me like you’re tackling this problem at the wrong level – you’re working with individual contributors one-on-one, but the change needs to happen at the leadership level to stick. If leaders consistently send the message that precision matters because they understand why and coach their people on it, you’ll get the resolution you need.

      It’s not clear to me what your own position is in the hierarchy, which is important here because leaders (like everyone!) tend to be most receptive to messages from their peers or from above, rather than from below. If the leaders you need buy-in from are above you, this is a conversation to have with your boss about how imprecision impacts you and to ask for your boss’s advocacy in addressing it. If you’re peers to or above the leaders, you can do this yourself. And most importantly, do not try to do this over email – in person is best if possible, but videoconference/phone substitutes reasonably well for those not at your site. Email is a terrible tool for this kind of thing – you need to be able to hear how it lands (yay? ugh? snore?) to know if you’re getting traction.

      Assuming you’re the one doing the asking, I’d say something like this: “As you know, Project Fuzzy Kitten is introducing a lot of change, and one of the things I’ve learned so far is that we have a lot of similar/identical forms and processes that have different names depending on who’s talking. It makes it challenging for the project team because we spend a lot of additional time clarifying and it puts us at risk of [missing deadlines, X negative impact to customers, etc. – whatever fits your situation]. To address this, we’re recommending that we adopt consistent language across departments – can you help us implement that in your area?” From there, open it up to questions/concerns they may have about it and be prepared to help them address roadblocks.

    2. Matilda Jefferies*

      First question – DO you actually need to have them call it a TPS form? Is it clear what they mean when they say a PAC form? What’s the actual impact of them calling it by the wrong name? You say it leads to confusion, but what does the confusion lead to? Delays, errors, financial costs…?

      I don’t need the answers to any of the above, and I’m not doubting you when you say it’s important. But if you want people to change their terminology, you need to be really clear as to why. If there’s no actual impact other than you grinding your teeth and going “It’s CALLED a TPS form!” then it may not be worth forcing the change. (As a fellow pedant, I get it! In my ideal world, everybody would use the word “archives” the way I use it, which is the way it’s actually used in the actual archival profession. But it’s not my ideal world, and most people don’t use it that way, and I have chosen to not fight this particular battle.)

      If it turns out that there’s an actual measurable impact to the confusion, and you decide you are going to fight the battle, start by acknowledging the pedantry. “Sorry, I know this sounds really nitpicky, but it’s important
      that we call them TPS forms because…(reasons.) Can I ask for your help sharing this with your team?” You’ll probably have to say it a lot, but hopefully the message will get out eventually.

      1. Anony*

        You asked the question I was thinking. If there was already another form called a PAC form I could see why it would cause confusion, but that does not seem to be the case. Why not simply tell everyone processing them that PAC forms and TPS forms are the same thing?

        1. As Close As Breakfast*

          It’s also possible that the people using them are seeing them as something else, too. Like, “it’s a TPS form for people!! So we shall call it a PAC form to differentiate!!” I agree that a clear reasoning for how using 2 different names/forms will absolutely-positively-NOT-WORK will likely need to be repeatedly given to people. Is it at all possible to embrace the 2 forms? Could the process on your end be altered so that the 2 forms are acknowledged as nearly identical (one dealing with operations changes and the other with personnel changes) and are handled in the same way. I ask only because this can be a very difficult thing to change once it’s started. Particularly if there is anyone higher up on the HR side that is on board with/likes the PAC form differentiation from the TPS form. In short, good luck!

  34. GhostCat*

    TL;DR: Customer went on a social media rampage after a friend, who is also our employee, joked that she was not serving him any more alcohol after he tripped into another customer.

    Back in September my parents extended onto their restaurant with the opening of a craft brewery. We live in a small town and the residents have been so excited to put our tiny place on the map. Reviews on the beer, food, service have been excellent and everyone has raved about it – until last night. I’ll need some advice on how to handle this.

    A man who we’ll call “John” came into the Brewery last night with his wife and 6 other friends (according to John’s wife he had already had some drinks in him before they came to the brewery.) “Donna”, one of the brewery employees, has known John and his wife most of her life and have grown up in the same neighborhood. After an hour of drinking and socializing John came up to the counter and asked Donna for two water cups, which Donna handed to him. As John went to walk back to his table he tripped over his foot and stumbled into another customer who managed to steady John on his feet. The customer laughed and said, “Too much to drink, buddy?” and Donna laughed and replied, “Looks like we’re going to have to cut you off, John!” This enraged John, who threw the empty cups in Donna’s direction and shouted at her to cash out his tab. Donna obliged and began to get his total and run his card. John began shouting and cursing at Donna, telling her that she needs to watch her f***ing mouth when she speaks to him. Donna was shocked and apologized to him, and said she was just joking. John repeatedly screamed expletives at Donna and told her to hurry up and that he was never returning. Once Donna cashed out John’s tab he went back to the table with his friends.

    Immediately we start getting notifications on our phones and John is furiously sending Facebook messages to the Brewery’s “private” messenger account about how it was the worst beer and service he had ever experienced and that he will make sure to tell his friends and family about how awful it was. As we are discussing how to handle the situation we discover that John is still in the Brewery sitting in a corner going through all 250 photos on the Facebook page and commenting “Horrible” on each one. He also leaving 1-star reviews with the same generic message “Horrible beer/service/never coming back and tell all your friends”. Once John’s friends realize what’s happening they seem mortified and quickly come up to pay their tab and leave. As John is leaving he makes one more jab at Donna and tells her she’ll never amount to anything more than working at a brewery. My sister, who was the manager on duty, asks him to leave and he stands at the door and glares at her for over 15 seconds.

    We decided not to respond to the reviews or Facebook Messenger message for 24-hours to see if he sobers up and sees what a jackass he was. This morning the reviews had been removed but the 250+ comments on photos were still there. I feel that we still need to address his abusive behavior towards Donna in the private FB message and let him know that it is not tolerated and inappropriate in our Brewery. Others feel like we need to ignore it and only handle it if he comes back and starts a stink.

    Readers, what would you do?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I would ban John from my restaurant/bar. He sounds like an angry, volatile drunk.

      I would also delete all of his comments from social media and ban him from being able to comment there again.

      1. Fiennes*

        I think banning him from the restaurant is absolutely fair. However, I’d make it clear to him that this is about his treatment of Donna that night. Nasty as his FB tirade was, you don’t want to give him the ammunition to say you guys ban people only for negative opinions. (Which you wouldn’t be—I just think emphasizing his in-person behavior is key.)

        Probably he *is* mortified. But if that guy responded to a fairly mild joke with such ugliness—and toward an old friend, at that!—he’s at a high risk of causing trouble again.

        1. Snark*

          Yeah, someone who reacts that harshly to an inoccuous joke has clearly a) got some issues with alcohol and b) got some subconscious awareness that his drinking is not healthy.

      2. Caro in the UK*

        This is where I sit too. He wasn’t simply rude, he was malicious and vindictive. And the fact that he has yet to apologise, and has left up some of his social media comments is a problem too (he may well be too mortified to apologise in person, but a message to say sorry, plus deleting all of the comments on your photos would be VERY easy).

        I know it’s a small town, and you may feel pressured to serve locals, even if they behave badly, but if I lived there and heard what had happened, I would absolutely support your decision to ban him (and to protect your staff from abuse). I’m sure most would feel the same.

        1. Anony*

          Blocking him on facebook is probably a good idea. I also think banning him from the restaurant is reasonable. Someone who becomes unhinged when it is pointed out that he is drunk should not be welcome at a bar.

    2. Aunt Vixen*

      I tend to think if you never see him again, fine; but if he comes back, whether he starts a stink or not, you need to let him know that’s not okay. If he ‘s rude (or worse) to Donna in public, it shouldn’t be enough to apologize to her in private.

    3. WellRed*

      I’d wait a bit and see if he apologizes. Chances are, he was mortified when he sobered up. As was his wife and friends, I am sure, by his behavior.

      1. fposte*

        I’d ban him anyway, though. He wasn’t mortified when he was drunk, and a brewery is a venue where he’s likely to be drunk again.

        1. Pollygrammer*

          Second this. I seriously doubt somebody like that is going to be embarassed.

          If he makes any public reviews on Yelp or anything, I might respond–something like “we pride ourselves on a fun and welcoming atmosphere, but we do not tolerate verbal abuse and profanity towards our staff, and we believe most of our guests will agree that this policy does not reflect poorly on our establishment.”

          2. chica*

            ^^^^^ THIS “we pride ourselves on a fun and welcoming atmosphere, but we do not tolerate verbal abuse and profanity towards our staff, and we believe most of our guests will agree that this policy does not reflect poorly on our establishment.”

            And, YES I am on the ban him bandwagon. Honestly, I cannot believe he wasn’t ushered out that night!

          3. The Cosmic Avenger*

            Well, actually, the fact that they deleted the reviews was a big factor in my recommending they consider a measured approach. It’s possible John had a recent trauma and/or has a drinking problem — neither of which make what he did OK, but based on the long history between him, his wife, and Donna, and the fact that this is in a small town, they might want to give him the opportunity to apologize and see if it seems sincere and humble enough.

            1. Pollygrammer*

              Lots and lots of people do things they regret when they’re drunk, but an awful lot of them also double down on them when they’re sober even if they regret them, just so they don’t look weak.

            2. Observer*

              He didn’t regret it enough to apologize or take down the comments.

              Also, “regretting it” is not a “get out of jail free” card. He THREW SOMETHING AT SOMEONE. What if it had been a glass instead of a cup? What if it had hit her – or another customer? Someone who gets that unhinged when drunk is not safe to have in a venue where people drink. Even if they regret it later.

      2. Snark*

        Hard disagree. He should be mortified by his behavior. He should apologize. And neither of those things mean there shouldn’t be consequences for being threatening and deeply nasty.

    4. The Cosmic Avenger*

      It sounds like even those who weren’t there can probably tell that John is/was acting like a toddler, so anything he does or did is probably mostly going to reflect badly on him, and if it’s the standout in a sea of raves, most people will get the point in short order.

      With the reviews gone, I might wait a week or two to let him finish cooling down, then delete the comments on the photos. I checked a couple of FB pages I manage, and you have to hide the comment, then you can delete it. I actually deleted a comment from years ago, and asked that friend to let me know if she receives a notification. I’ll follow up when I hear back. Either way, I’d still delete them, but I understand that that information might influence your decision.

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        Of course I got distracted by the technical issue, and forgot to address the rest of it.

        Since you say Donna has known John most of her life, I would get her input before banning him, but make it clear that you are ready and inclined to do so, so she doesn’t feel that it’s on her. I know I would probably want to ban him outright. However, you might want to give him a chance to back down and apologize gracefully, especially in a small town. I’ve never lived anywhere like that, but I can imagine that grudges and ruined relationships take on an outsized importance when you can’t avoid someone very easily.

        1. CM*

          I was thinking that too — if it’s a small community and banning would seem too harsh (maybe this is John’s regular hangout and this was a one-time aberration), then contact John and ask him to apologize to Donna and take down all the social media posts. If he refuses, then ban him.

        2. Anony*

          Asking Donna could put her in a tough position though since she may feel pressure (real or imagined) to be forgiving. This isn’t her call and she shouldn’t feel responsible for it. Even saying that you are ready and inclined to ban him won’t necessarily make her feel like it isn’t on her. Instead, apologize to Donna for the fact that she was verbally accosted at work and inform her that you are banning John from the bar because his behavior was completely unacceptable. If anyone tried to blame her, make it clear that she had no say in the decision.

        3. Observer*

          I would NOT ask Donna – especially because of the small town dynamic that could be at play. It’s not really fair to put this responsibility on her.

          If nothing else, by making the decision without her input, they give her some social cover. And, there is really no downside for them.

      2. The Cosmic Avenger*

        BTW, if it matters, my friend did not receive a notification that I deleted her comment from 3 years ago on an old Page of mine, so John probably wouldn’t know unless he checked the photos.

    6. Snark*

      “Your abusive behavior towards our staff is not tolerated and you are no longer welcome at Brewery.” SCREW this guy. He’s an angry, volatile drunk and his behavior was not just bonkers and insulting but threatening. Stand up for your staff, stand up for your other patrons.

      And if he raises a stink on social media, let him. It’s perfectly obvious to reasonable persons when the 1-star review was written by a lunatic with a weird grudge.

    7. Todd*

      I would block him from facebook page, perhaps put up a note about abusive drunken behavior not being tolerated then let it sit for a couple of weeks. IF he apologizes I could see letting him back in, but make it clear on his first visit that he’s on probation. And monitor his alcohol intake carefully at your establishment.

    8. soupmonger*

      Ban him from the premises immediately on the grounds of ill-treatment of an employee. No-one deserves to be treated that way and if you back Donna up by banning him, it sends a good, strong message to the other employees.

      I’d not wait for him to come in and make a scene – tell him to leave and not return if he comes back.

  35. Really Need New Job*

    Hi all,

    I wanted to ask how would you handle it if you got a job offer from a new company, contingent to good references, and then your old employer suddenly refuse to give you a good reference because you are trying to leave their company when they were hoping you stay longer.

    I am trying to job search even though my current company is going to give me a promotion, because I just don’t like how my company is running things. My managers has always been kind to me even though I am just an “okay” employee who occasionally still make a few small mistakes. My company refuse to hire new employees when old ones leave, and they have us assigned with more workload because of it. Even though my managers are kind, I am not sure if they how they will take it if I announce I will leave after I got my promotion shortly.

    I don’t want to refuse the promotion because it might raise questions and I am not sure what would happen in the future.

    But I do want a chance to change to another job, if I can.

    Thanks,

    1. RubyMendez*

      Is there anyone at old employer who would be willing to give you a good reference? Or a former employee of old employer who would be willing to give you a good reference?

      Or if old employer is current employer — can you ask new employer not to take a reference from there? It’s really hard to get your current manager to support you in your job search (unless you’re a student or temp or somehow time-limited), because they’re acting against their own interests.

      1. Really Need New Job*

        Unfortunately, I do not have any other coworkers who might want to give me a good reference (we don’t talk a lot socially and we do not have a much friendly relationship–this is another reason why I want to change jobs).

        Would new employer be skeptical of me if I can’t get a good reference from my recent old employer?

        I fear their skepticism might cause them to rescind my job offer.

        1. o.b.*

          It is very, very typical (in the private sector—not so much education or public sector, I’ve been told) not to be able to offer your current employer as a reference, typically because you don’t want to let your current employer know you’re searching.

          1. Did your prospective new employer specifically ask for a reference from your current job?
          2. If so, do you have anything you can offer instead, like a performance review? Do you have an HR department that could confirm employment and the status of your record (no discipline or issues, etc.)?
          3. Do you have a few other solid references from past jobs/internships?
          4. Are you comfortable explaining to the new employer that you won’t get a good reference because they don’t want you to leave?

          In all of my private sector jobs no one has ever asked for a reference from my current employer; unless you were specifically asked, I wouldn’t worry—it’s totally normal not to provide that.

          1. Really Need New Job*

            I think I can get a good reference from my manager from my previous job that’s before my current one.

            But I did wrote my current job in my resume. In the past, my prospective employers have asked for references from the jobs that were on my resume. They asked for it after they wrote me my job offer.

            My performance reviews are kept by HR, and I am not too sure if they will give those out to me or to other employers. I haven’t asked them about it.

            My original question was a hypothetical question. I wanted to prepare for the worst case scenario.

            1. o.b.*

              In my experience, it’s super typical (almost expected) to put your current job on your resume but not be able to offer a reference from it. In your practice, it will depend on the company and hiring manager. Worst case scenario, I think, they ask for a current reference, you’re unable to give that or produce any performance reviews, I think you could just explain your perfectly reasonable situation and see if the employer responds reasonably.

    2. Rat Racer*

      Is this hypothetical, or does your company know you’re job searching and has indicated that they won’t give you a good reference if you leave? It’s pretty bad form for an employer to give a bad reference to an employee who leaves on good terms, just because they left! Especially if you give them fair notice and a transition plan… I don’t know your company (maybe they’re totally backwards and evil) but I wouldn’t worry about them sabotaging you unless you have a strong indication that this is their MO.

      1. Really Need New Job*

        This is a hypothetical question. I just wanted to have some knowledge of what I should do in case this worst scenario is happening.

        My manager is typically friendly, but he is not the best manager and the workplace is not an environment I like. I don’t have any other friendly relation with anyone else in my department.

        My manager wanted me to take on more workload, because we have fewer employees than we have in the past. He wouldn’t hire new employees. But I wanted to leave, even though I am needed.

    3. fposte*

      I can’t tell if this is a situation you’re actually facing or a situation you’re worried you might face.

      It’s pretty common in U.S. hiring that you don’t have a reference from your current job for the job you’re applying for. People use references from previous jobs, or clients at the current job who can be trusted to keep the search confidential, or supervisors at volunteer positions, that kind of thing. It’s therefore pretty unusual for hiring to be contingent on a good reference from a current job.

      I think it’s probably #2, so think about who else you might ask for references. Any managers no longer with that company? Who could you contact from previous employers? But above all, if it’s #2, don’t let the fear of your current employer keep you from looking for a new job if you want one. There are ways to work around this kind of situation.

      2. Really Need New Job*

        I know that most prospective employers won’t ask for references from current employer when you’re still in the interview process.

        But prospective employers might want to see references from the jobs you put in your resume when you interviewed them. I had past job offers when that was asked after I accepted the job offer.

        I will put my current job in my resume, since that job has relevant experience, so new employers might want to confirm about my role in my current job.

    4. Thlayli*

      Have they specifically said one of the references has to be from your current employer? If not use references from previous employers. Also there’s no law saying your reference has to be your line manager, anyone who can vouch for your work is acceptable.

  36. Foreign Octopus*

    So I’ve been sick this week but I’ve had to work (damn self-employment! I would have called in sick if I didn’t work for myself).

    I had two lessons yesterday where I thought I was going to fall out of my chair I felt so bad and I had to have a nap in the middle of the day. I’m really glad the weekend is here. I’ve finished work for the day, and I only have one class tomorrow morning. After that, I can curl up with my cat, my book, and my box of Roses chocolate and not have to think about work until Monday.

    Commiserations to anyone else with a December cold and having to work.

    2. Alternative Person*

      My commiserations. I was lucky in that I had already booked yesterday and today off because my voice had completely gone by the end of Wednesday and still isn’t back.

  37. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

    How helpful are language skills, really, on a resume?

    Last year I took and passed an official test for the B1 level for French (link for the explanation of the levels in followup comment), which is…good, not great (used to be fluent, can still read pretty fluently but am very rusty when it comes to speaking). I’ve been thinking of taking the test for the next level next year, but I’m waffling about it because it costs money and it would be a lot of work to study for it and I’m not sure how much it would really help me since, while I will be applying to jobs in a couple of French-speaking areas, I’m mostly not, although I’m planning to apply to a lot of multinational companies/organizations where it’s feasible that other French speakers could show up.

    So, for a job that doesn’t directly require a language skill (i.e., not in a French-speaking area and not to be, like, a French translator or anything), might these skills be helpful or not really? Library/information management-type jobs are what I’ll be applying for.

    2. Julianne*

      I’ve sat on a few hiring committees in a different field than you’re looking at, but I have seen applicants come through with language skills that don’t apply to the position (ex. French proficiency when we have no need for someone with French language skills). I would say it has never hurt anyone, but has never helped, even in a “This is an additional skill that could maybe have an extremely small chance of ever being useful here, I guess?” When it’s come down to French-speaking-candidate versus non-French-speaking-candidate, there has always been some other skill or quality more immediately relevant to the job that helped us make the decision.

    3. WellRed*

      I feel like unless you are absolutely fluent in a language, you shouldn’t include it. And, if it’s not a job requirement, it’s unlikely to strengthen your application.

      1. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

        There are different levels of fluency, though. You don’t need to be able to discuss foreign policy or quantum physics in detail in your second language to be able to perform your job duties well (unless your job actually deals with those). And you don’t need to speak perfectly grammatically, either (heck, most native speakers don’t do that–we’ve seen posts and comments here on AAM about native speakers who misuse words).

        I’m not trying to argue that I should absolutely be including it on my resume or that people should be wowed by my super awesome language skills, but the definition of “fluency” can be pretty fluid.

        1. Pepsquad*

          Do you enjoy doing it? Is it a crazy prohibitive amount of money?
          Not everything’s about job skills it could make visiting Quebec or France enjoyable, make you proud that you’d achieved something, improve on a skill you enjoy. I don’t think it’ll hinder you and i guess if you worked at a university library it could be helpful, or if you plan to work overseas. Or to try and gain Canadian citizenship!

    5. AeroEngineer*

      I always have a language section on my CV with the languages I speak and their level (and any valid tests), as long as it is higher than beginner level (so B1 or higher, maybe A2 if it is a less common language). My last language test I took expired years ago, so I just normally list “beginner”, “intermediate” or “advanced”.

      As an engineer, these skills are almost never required (except for some French or Spanish speaking locations as well as some Asian countries, not where I am now), but it has been at least discussed in every interview I have had, and I think actually helped me get my current job. As I wish to move to some more language restrictive areas in the next years, I will be taking some exams next year.

      In short, if you don’t need it and don’t want to spend the money (especially if the exam result expires), then don’t, you can always state “intermediate” or “advanced” as well as the exam and date.

    6. Thlayli*

      I have a section on my cv (resume) listed languages and levels if fluency. I do t go with the official categories, just a single line with all of the languages I speak and the level in brackets like English (fluent), German (good) etc. It’s only one line and doesn’t take up much space. It’s not going to harm your candidacy so if you can squeeze it in without dropping something more relevant I say stick it in there.

    7. Kuododi*

      I’m fluent in Spanish….not native….intentionally spent extra time growing up studying and practicing the language…. I actually have background providing mental health counseling in Spanish to immigrant clients with language limitations. Because of this, I also have a background in medical interpretation. All of the jobs Ive had since leaving grad school have been because of my language skills. There has always been a ghastly shortage of appropriately qualified bilingual healthcare provider in general healthcare as well as mental health care. The same holds for qualified interpreters. The worst mistake I have seen is when healthcare providers try to rely on bilingual children to help with evaluation. A big NO No!!!!

  38. FFS*

    Later this month, I have to have a serious, awkward, and potentially hostile meeting with senior management about a number of issues/problems that affect both me personally and many, many others (partner/principal promotion being dangled without any intent to award, petty lies from the director, lack of leadership planning, punishment for those who speak up, a Borg-like push for “assimilation”, and disrespectful and tone deaf messaging from leadership, mind games, a director who pits people against each other with rumors and lies, among so many other problems). This is new for our department – it has been building over the last two years due to leadership change overs, but is now coming to a head. One or two bad apples at the top infecting an otherwise really strong department.

    It’s one of those situations where people are leaving in droves to get away from to toxicity, but no one wants to burn bridges so they are not honest about the problems as they go. I essentially threw down a gauntlet during my end of year review about all the BS – put it in writing and submitted to HR. I have decided to fight for what I want this department to be (what it used to be) and especially for how I deserved to be treated in it. I have zero illusions about winning this fight.

    Finding another job isn’t an issue – my industry is very hot right now. It’s that I don’t WANT to leave the company – I love my work and immediate team, but short of a complete turnover with senior leadership, I don’t see a way out of the mess they have created. Without this leader, this company would be my forever-home.

    Any advice on how to structure this talk in the most productive way possible? The leader I will be speaking with is arrogant, dismissive, a bit sexist, and tries to rule with favoritism and fear. I’m not in his good graces currently, but he cannot ignore what I say because of the insane end of year turnover we are in the middle of. I expect it will be a pointless conversation that may result in me quitting (read: being fired) on the spot…

    1. fposte*

      1. You love your work
      2. You’re concerned about directions in the company that are making everybody’s work more difficult
      3. You have the following suggestions for action items (as objective and quantifiable as possible, and not requesting the firing of anybody)

      I think you’ve got the right mindset–you probably won’t win, but it’s worth using your leverage to try. Good luck.

      1. Em Too*

        Agreed. And can you pull out a relatively short list of suggestions for 3? That’s a long list (my sympathy!) and I think too long to get traction. Could you for example tolerate the lack of leadership planning if you had more honesty, truthfulness and openness ?

      2. FFS*

        All good points that would be received with pragmatism by a reasonable person (ha)!

        I agree point #1 is probably my ace that I can wield with some effect. I struggle a bit with corrective suggestions for culture issues. This would be much simpler if it were process/procedure. “Stop being an asshole” is going to be hard to communicate with any lasting effect, especially since he is trying very hard to discredit/sideline me currently. Luckily, I’ve been here 10 years and people know better than to believe the BS he spreads about me.

        If the worst happens, I won’t leave without discussing my concerns with the CEO. He used to be my grand boss, and I believe I still hold his respect. He’ll listen to my concerns at least, but I’ll be out so it will be up to him to take action or not. A part of me believes this is the only level of intervention that could potentially make a lasting change.

    2. Rat Racer*

      Oof. that is hard – and kudos to you for bravery and integrity, although personally, I don’t know how I’d navigate those political waters. I’d bet Alison does.

      I’m in a similar situation and have just decided to cut bait. My experience has taught me that there’s no use trying to change culture from the ground up. My company just hired a new VP who, while brilliant, is a hot mess of a manager, (read: unstable and vindictive) and we just brought in a CEO from a competitor known to have the worst work culture in our industry. I thought I’d found my forever home too – before all this went down. But in the past, when I’ve tried to swim upstream, I’ve just ended up with a bunch of water in my lungs. At this point, I figure, they’re a big corporation, and if they want to shoot themselves in the foot, I’m not going to stand in the way of the bullet.

    3. Fiennes*

      If it’s going to take a “complete turnover of current leadership” to fix your job…no, this isn’t a fight you’re likely to win. You seem to believe it’s impossible, and from the way you’ve described things, you’re probably right. So the question is: Why are you doing this? If you think/know it’s useless, why put yourself in this position? In your place I’d accept that this job can’t be your forever home, look for something else, and drop all this on them in your exit interview. Why put yourself through the ugliness and a period of unemployment (however brief) just to get this off your chest? But maybe this meeting would accomplish something I’m not seeing here.

      1. FFS*

        Why put myself through this? Such a good question… So many of my colleagues have made that decision (understandably so!). I’m not a quitter and have never been one to shy away from a fight when I think I’m right/believe in something. I don’t see a reason to start here. I really believe in the direction this company is going, and the growth here should mean this is a lightening path for me career wise (and has been until this year’s difficulties). We have been succeeding wildly despite the leadership turn over two years ago. My company does so many things well, but the sudden power trips (think Napoleon syndrome) and arbitrary weaponizing of process and new nonsensical rules have really worn others out (and me to!).

        I guess I just need to prove to myself that I did everything I could to make this be what I want/need it to be. I have several plan Bs in place, any one of them would probably be good opportunities.

        1. Frankie Bergstein*

          It sounds like the cost of doing this – personally and professionally – is something you are willing to bear.

        2. Fiennes*

          Then I’d approach this as more of a personal issue than a professional one, because this is mostly about providing closure for yourself. What will you feel best about having said, looking back? Go with that.

    4. FFS*

      Thank you, all. Very good thoughts for me to mull over. January will be in interesting month… Alison’s (in)famous “Your boss sucks, and that’s not going to change” can be very hard to come to terms with. Wish me luck (or at least a fabulous bon mot to peace out on!).

  39. BittersweetCharity*

    Week Two

    Thank you to everyone who graciously shared their stories of weird and/or awful onboarding! I read every entry and concluded that mishandling of office spaces and assignments is painfully common. Thanks, AAM community, for helping me put my first week into perspective.

    I’m currently finishing my second week at the new job and learning a lot about office politics and why I’ve been met with some frostiness. While I can attribute a portion of the sloppy onboarding process to timing (end of year holiday/vacation season), I now understand that I’m replacing someone who was let go under suspicious circumstances and am coming on during a time of leadership transition.

    After absorbing the information from my co-workers, I’ve tried to take Alison’s level-headed and professional advice to heart. I am not taking sides of getting involved in any office politics, but I am instead focused on being as pleasant and team-oriented as possible. I cannot waltz into the new job and immediately fill the void left by my predecessor; however, I can make an effort to ask questions and show appreciation for my co-workers’ knowledge.

    If you have any advice or suggestions on how to navigate this strange situation, please do share. I am open to any suggestions.

    Thanks!

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Probably too vague to be of major help, but take an attitude of service and try to be transparent in what you do. I have found service and transparency to be useful defaults in settings where everyone is acting strangely. Note, service does not mean you do it FOR them. Service means you offer suggestions where you can or you find ways to make processes easier.

      If you use this technique of being the “level headed, logical one” it will take time for them to notice and it will take a little more time for them to appreciate your professionalism. So gear up for a wait period while you run this strategy. Fortunately, with being new at a job you would have a wait period while they get acquainted with you anyway. You might be able to tell yourself that any job has a learning curve of some type.

  40. Rat Racer*

    Question to my fellow Chiefs of Staff who read this blog (or to executives who have Chiefs of Staff, or to anyone who has an opinion on this): is a COS job supposed to be a short-term gig, and if so, is it a liability to have been in this role for a long time – say 5 years?

    My story: I started this job hoping to parlay it into a leadership position in operations, communications or strategy. I wasn’t sure which way I wanted to go when I started. The problem is that in the 4.5 years I’ve been here, I’ve had 4 (4!) VPs. It’s hard to get direction and focus when you’re helping someone build an organization over and over (and over) again.

    The first 3 VPs in this department were phenomenal, this last one is unfortunately problematic. I’m looking to find something else at another company, and thinking that the best way to get a foot in the door is as a COS. I’m good at this job, experienced COSs are hard to come by, and honestly, I don’t think someone outside would hire me as a Director of Strategy or Operations or Communications when I’ve been doing all 3 things + a hodgepodge of org development, business process improvement and god knows what else lands on my plate. At this level, you’d look for someone with a track record of leadership in a specialized area.

    Here’s the Catch 22. I had an interview for COS job a few weeks back, and the hiring manager said to me “You know, we’re really looking for someone to fill this role for 1-2 years and then move onto a leadership role within this org. Given that you’ve been a COS for so long, it seems like this is your passion {note: I had been talking about how much I love my job, and why I’m good at doing it} which makes me wonder if this is a good fit for you.”

    Of course I tried to explain my situation, but I’m seriously worried that I have PERMANENT CHIEF OF STAFF etched into my resume. Moreover, I’m worried that if I take another COS job, it will only make it worse.

    How do you interview for a job saying “I don’t really want this job – I’m hoping to turn it into something else.”? That sounds like #1 thing NOT to do at an interview. Plus, I really do like being a COS, I just don’t want to do it for the rest of my life. Is it already too late?

    1. CM*

      I think you can say that while you are an experienced and skilled COS, your ultimate goal is to move into a director position and you’re looking for a position that would support that trajectory.

      I would be open about that — I don’t think I’d say it explicitly in the cover letter, but definitely in the interview you can say that’s what you want. It might make it harder for you to find jobs, but a job where they want you to be COS forever isn’t a good fit anyway.

      Also, if you’re not already, maybe apply for director-level positions anyway?

    2. periwinkle*

      I can’t speak from personal experience but from organizational experience… At my employer (Fortune 50 corporation), the COS role is a 1-year position for which applicants are expected to have prior leadership/management experience as well as experience in strategic planning. And yes, it’s expected to lead to a leadership position although it’s not automatic.

      Your situation seems unique because of the lack of continuity in your org; if each VP comes in and immediately rips up the existing strategic plan, how can you work towards becoming a leader yourself when you’ve got to work through the chaos?

      If another hiring manager expresses the same concern, perhaps you can talk about how you’ve stayed in the role for so long due to the frequent turnover in leadership. You’ve supported the organization’s goals through providing that stability and continuity even though it negatively impacted your own progress into a leadership role. However, you’ve found it worthwhile because it gave you the opportunity to enhance and demonstrate your skills in org dev/process improvement/strategic planning as well as your adaptability and responsiveness to organizational challenges. But now you are seeking a COS role in a more stable organization so you can focus as much on strategic execution as on strategic planning.

      [note: I think too many executives get so giddy at making strategic plans that they forget about the execution bit; our new VP has been phenomenal at moving from planning to execution, something our prior VP had never done in her 10 years in the role]

  41. I Love Thrawn*

    So going back to yesterday’s super vague “high end friend-business consultancy” letter… I almost feel bad for that person. Here she has an amazing wealth of commenters with tremendous professional experiences to draw from, and all she could do was insult most people. I don’t think I’ve ever read a letter here where the OP was THAT determined to provide no useable information to work with.

    1. KR*

      Yeah. Honestly I read the letter and I didn’t understand the job very well and when that usually happens I go down to the comments to try to see what other more experienced commenters think and I didn’t even really want to take another look at it and try to understand it better when I saw how rude the OP was. Hopefully they can find someone who can give them better advice – maybe a mentor or someone more experienced in the field they are in.

      1. Hellanon*

        I just went back to the comments and yes, that whole thing, including the OP’s meltdown, was hilarious. I cannot *imagine* living in a world where friends & business contacts were one and the same group of people – how ghastly their real dinner parties must be!

      1. EddieSherbert*

        I did too, but I just spent an interesting 10 minutes catching up (and staring at the screen with my mouth agape because, wow, unfriendly!)…

    3. Snark*

      They didn’t want advice, they wanted validation and and ego boost, and were frustrated and defensive when they didn’t get it. And I got the distinct impression they were younger and playing a much lower-stakes game than what they told us.

      1. Detective Right-All-The-Time*

        I got the same impression. I don’t know any high-level professional who uses “LOL” and “:)))))” or says things like “friend stealing” – it all sounded so juvenile.

          1. Ramona Flowers*

            And when we started mentioning mafioso and spies.

            My favourite part was when they started explaining that the analogy wasn’t real.

            I agree they missed a great opportunity to get advice!

    5. Plague of frogs*

      My personal theory is that it’s that woman who went to University of Phoenix and was so wound up about it.

    6. Ask a Manager* Post author

      After I blocked her from continuing to comment (because she was being rude and ignored my request to stop), she continued trying to post comment after comment (all of which just got stuck in moderation because of the block). She then told me that the job she’d kept so secret was that she was a journalist and that she was now writing an article on internet bullying for a major British newspaper and she’d taken screenshots of people’s comments to expose us as terrible bullies.

      It was very weird (and obviously false).

      1. Louise*

        Wow. Like… this is one of the most compassionate, best self-moderating places on the internet (thanks to the culture you foster here). What a strange, strange thing.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Nah, sometimes this place can get real negative real quick, but it doesn’t seem like that was the case from the commentariat’s side yesterday.

          1. Louise*

            People can definitely be negative, but compared to most other comments sections on the internet, this is a remarkably chill place.

      2. Detective Amy Santiago*

        Wooooow. What a weird situation. Sorry your vacation got interrupted with such craziness!

      4. Epiphyta*

        “It’s a social experiment”? Really? That’s her “get out of being held accountable for being an asshat on the Internet” card?

      5. Not So NewReader*

        Anyone who reads with an inquiring mind, would probably look at this blog and realize the writer was not in touch with what actually goes on here.

      6. JamieS*

        Well I just hope that once it’s published the fact all the comments that could be interpreted as bullying were written by her doesn’t harm her credibility.

      7. This Daydreamer*

        She thinks AAM is full of terrible bullies? Seriously? Was this the first internet forum she had ever seen?

      8. London Calling*

        I wouldn’t jump to the conclusion that it’s false. UK newspapers, especially the tabloids, regularly mine sites such as Mumsnet for stories for their papers. ‘Spot who is the journalist and which story will appear in the Daily Mail’ is a regular sport on that site.

        1. JamieS*

          It’s possible she may attempt to send an article to a newspaper or tabloid (waste of time IMO) but I doubt she’s a journalist by trade. Her letter and comments don’t really make sense if she were a journalist.

          Then again her story didn’t make sense anyway with vagueness and contradictions so maybe she is a lousy ‘journalist’ (or someone trying to break into the field) who made up a letter and followed up with inflammatory comments in an attempt to bait negative reactions for her article.

          I guess if we see an article within the next year about the horrific bullying culture Alison has fostered we’ll have our answer.

          1. Hildegard Von Bingen*

            My guess is she’s a free-lancer. I worked as a reporter and editor for eight years in the ’80s and early ’90s, and I saw an awful lot of people who called themselves journalists who didn’t have the faintest idea about what the job entails, who couldn’t write, and who couldn’t think straight (if you don’t understand what you’re writing about, it’s tough to write a coherent, interesting piece that readers want to read and that publishers want to pay for and run).

            Just like anyone can call herself an artist, anyone can call herself a journalist. It probably sounds better than describing yourself accurately: a floundering individual with unresolved childhood issues and lots of anger who hasn’t found her place in the working world yet. I wish her luck, but she seems pretty clueless.

            1. JamieS*

              My guess is if there’s even a drop a truth to it she’s trying to break into journalism rather than having already had ‘long and successful career”.

              Regardless I’m sticking with the theory the letter was bogus. Her story doesn’t follow if she were a journalist and some (most) of her comments were obviously meant to cause a negative reaction. Whether it was just a troll or her attempt to stir up a story remains to be seen.

              I know we’re not supposed to speculate on the validity of letters but while the letter itself seems plausible she was just so over the top that believing her would require a suspension of belief I’m not capable of.

        2. Observer*

          It still doesn’t make any sense. Journalism doesn’t involve the kind of work that the letter writer described in her letter. So either the letter was a troll or her claim that she’s a journalist was an attempt to bully or intimidate Alison.

  42. GG Two shoes*

    I wrote a few weeks ago about how to follow up after an interview. A couple days later I got the “thanks but no thanks” email. Bummed but not unexpected.
    Now I have a question for a few of you that work as program managers. I applied for a job a few days ago at an insurance company (same industry that I’m in now) as a program manager. I have the soft skills for it I think: good at managing others, organized, good at setting goals and reasonable deadlines, etc but I don’t have any experience in it per say. I also don’t have any program management certificates because from the research I have done, it seems like you need to be able to implement it at work to get the credits for the certificates and in my current role I can’t do that. I met the qualifications (a BA, 6 years of experience, 2 years managing, etc.)

    So my question is: Do I have a chance at all in this field? What do you look for in good program managers? and how can I make my self stand out since I don’t have any thing that screams I’m perfect for the job?

    1. Fortitude Jones*

      What’s your current job in the field? If you’re an underwriter, you already have experience to perform the role provided you write profitable business and said business is in different territories/regions. Are you a claims person? Well, then you have a unique view of the role because you see the end game, the fallout from what gets written and sold by your company. You could point out how that knowledge would lead you to spotting underperforming or just flat out bad business in your current programs, or could help you to know what business to avoid altogether.

      Do you have any industry designations like the AIC or the CPCU? Depending on your company, they may reimburse you for taking those exams. The latter especially is good for program managers to have, so you should also look into getting it even if your company doesn’t reimburse the costs (I will warn you that those exams are super expensive, both the materials and the exams themselves, and there are eight you’re required to pass unless you have an exemption).

  43. Amber Rose*

    I think one of my coworkers was just fired and I feel a little sick about it. On the one hand, I liked her and thought she was doing a good job? Also I know our shared boss finds it hard to give up work and she was hired to take on one of those tasks. On the other hand, there were some weird things about her.

    I don’t know, I’m just… People getting fired gives me anxiety fits. :(

    1. Pollygrammer*

      Wish her the best, and offer to be a reference? Be delicately honest is anyone higher up with real clout asks about the situation? There’s not much else you can do :(

      1. Amber Rose*

        I wish I knew why, because it would ease my anxiety that I’m next. Of course, it’s none of my business why and I have no reason to think I’m next except that I’m an anxious person.

        I couldn’t in good faith be a reference. One of those weird things about her was the time she introduced me to a supplier as the “office bitch.” Which, you know, not something to say to outsiders! So maybe she said the wrong thing to the wrong person. It’s just scary to me, since normally nobody gets fired around here, no matter how awful they are.

        1. Circus peanuts*

          I think if someone said that to your face and to an outside office contact, there is a very good chance that there were other problems as well. Good employees don’t say things like that.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Yeah, that is the tip of the iceberg. She probably had lost her filters at other times also.

            AR, why not go to your boss and just say, “I don’t want to be the next fired person. Is there anything you would like us to talk about so that I may continue being a productive employee for this company?”

            It’s fine to inquire on your own behalf if the boss has any concerns she wishes to discuss. You are not asking about what happened with the other person, you are only inquiring about your own status.
            I don’t know about you, but sometimes I realize that it is more scary NOT knowing than it is scary to ask a question. If the boss drifts into talking about Jane, then just say, “I am very sorry to hear that.” And redirect the conversation back to your own continued employment.

        2. Observer*

          I think that NSNR is right all around.

          If you don’t want to do that, I would just remember that this kind of comment is just so out of line, that I’d be willing to be that she said at least one or two things to the REALLY wrong person. This is almost certainly not a one off.

          Story time: We’ve had a contract with a support company for a function I manage for years. Some time ago they got a new support tech who was “interesting”. I talked to his bosses three times about him, each time escalating.
          1. Please tell Joe Tech to stop diagnosing stuff, especially when he has no clue and is just trying to make himself look good. It causes problems and gets staff upset.
          2. Please tell Joe Tech that if he has any issues with how I manage something, he should bring it to you and you’ll discuss it with me. NEVER bring up stuff in front of other staff or visitors – especially since he’s often wrong. And by the way telling people that their policy x is stupid is not a good way to convince them to change.
          3. Please never send this guy to anything that gets him near the CEO. He could really jeopardize your contract. (For background, this is the only time I’ve threatened to possibly go nuclear with these people. And my boss is not hard for service staff to deal with. But this guy had my boss just questioning the whole place.)

          Not all that long after the last conversation, he got fired with no notice. He did something stupid and when he was called on it, he essentially reacted by saying some really inappropriate things to the top people there.

    2. All Hail Queen Sally*

      I worked at a place once where people were being fired right and left. It was very stressful because we were all wondering when it would be our turn.

      1. Windchime*

        That was my last job. It was a super stable place where many employees had been there for decades, until they promoted a sociopath into a management position. She started taking aim and firing, one by one. She would decide that someone was a problem and then start picking at them and gas lighting them until they either quit or were fired. I decided to quit because she was starting in on me.

        It was awful. So, so stressful.

  44. Grouchy Old Lady*

    Perhaps I’m getting old because I’m getting really annoyed with an ambitious youngster on our team. We have a committee its like a “fun committee.” Its purely volunteer and we try and plan fun things for the staff (again purely volunteer for the staff as well). We have a new committee member and she comes up with these crazy ideas that know one will go for. I was that way once too. Only she appears open to feedback but then does not take it!
    I put out a monthly newsletter is a simple one page handout telling staff what’s going on that month. A lot of our staff don’t have email so this is the easiest way to ensure they don’t miss out. Think of a sheet that says-Free pizza on Friday in the lunchroom. Don’t forget to pick up you gift card from management. And a few photos from the last event. She asked if she could submit something to be included. I said sure. She sends me a TWO page article. Our staff aren’t going to read a two page article! Not to mention how is a two page article going to fit on a one page newsletter.
    How to get through to her that she needs to come up with ideas of things the staff are into not things she personally wants to do?

    1. Pollygrammer*

      Not to mention the time it takes to write a two page article is probably way more than she should be taking away from her actual job…

      1. Grouchy Old Lady*

        yes! I think that’s most of my frustration. I give her feedback and it doesn’t get done. So then I have to redo her work. And then her actual job doesn’t get done because she’s working on fun committee things. Which holds me up. Arg.

    2. Nanc*

      Curses, bah, humbug to all you young and enthusiastic whippersnappers! Get off my lawn! I was one of those folks, too, many many years ago when the department newsletter was typed up on a manual typewriter and we mimeographed it (did it really smell good or were we just weird?).

      That said, maybe you could guide her to better contributions. Could her two page article be broken up and printed over a few months? Six tips for great harmony in the singing teapots division–here’s one and two, three and four coming next month. Could you set up an internal blog so you can do a short version of the article and say for more info go here? If she has crazy ideas–put her in charge of a survey–what fun things would you, the employees like to see/do/read about? You might be surprised that folks are interested in trying underwater basket weaving once. And if nothing else, you’ll get actual data so you can show her that folks aren’t interested in wild and wacky adventures but would love to have the fire department come in and give a fire extinguisher training (boy that was fun! they set fires in big trash cans in the parking lot and we got to put them out with all sorts of different extinguishing methods–we even got to pull the wall hose thingy out the back door!)

      1. Grouchy Old Lady*

        The survey sounds like it would be up her alley. I’ve given her feedback from survey’s we have done in the past and she has ignored it. Maybe if she was in charge of the data she would be more inclined to use it!

    3. EddieSherbert*

      Can you just respond and tell her it’s a one page newsletter? And let her know that you can give her X amount of space if she wants to rewrite it?

      1. Grouchy Old Lady*

        I did. She removed 4 words and said that was the best she could do…. I always get answers like that.

        1. EddieSherbert*

          Yeah, at that point I’d just tell her I can’t include it then. I don’t think you should have to put much effort into this.

        2. Jessica*

          “Okay, well, it’s too long. I can’t include it until you cut it down by about 75%. See what you can do, otherwise we’ll be using other content.”

            1. Pollygrammer*

              “Take a look at some of the older newsletters. That’s the kind of content and length we’re looking for, and we’re not going to change the format.”

  45. Ruth (UK)*

    This is just a short thing that entertained me… My new job being at a university, I have been lucky enough to have a week off as it’s closed. We get milk delivered in our department on a Monday and as that’s New Year’s day and we return on Tues 2nd, I emailed the milk delivery company before we were off, to make some changes to our regular order (eg. letting them know when we didn’t need any, and when we were back etc – and asking them to deliver on Tuesday 2nd)

    As I live in a small city, I [socially] have some connections with people who happen to work at the same uni in other departments. One friend in another department complained to me that whenever they have a bank holiday on a Monday, they never have any milk delivered that week, as their milk is delivered on Mondays. I said “oh. I just emailed the company and asked them to deliver on Tuesday that week” and they honestly were like “wait, what? you can do that? We’ve never done that…”

    1. Ruth (UK)*

      (to add, in case it’s not clear, the milk delivery company will deliver on any day of the week that you like, except Sundays, as long as you give them at least 3 working days’ notice if you wish to start, change or cancel an order. So there’s no reason people are stuck with Mondays if they don’t want to be…)

      1. caledonia*

        My mind is boggling that you get milk delivered…we have a milk kitty and the Holder of The Kitty goes out and purchases milk for the week/however long it lasts. Mind you, we are only like 2 mins away from a shop and are based in a good location.

        Good for you for thinking of a great solution! I bet your friends will now be doing the same.
        (I also work at a uni and totally love the Christmas break. I don’t think I could ever go back to working in between).

        1. Curly*

          Our milk delivery comes in regular plastic pint or 2 pint jugs (also UK, but in a regular office building). It’s a thing here.

    2. Elizabeth West*

      Do you get the little tiny bottles? My auntie used to get milk in those when she lived in Chiswick. She had a tiny shelf outside her front door where the milkman would leave it (it was a Victorian house). It was awesome. Though I can drink a whole one in one sitting, LOL. Now she just buys plastic jugs at Sainsbury’s.

      Talk about jobs you don’t see much anymore–milk delivery. I haven’t seen that other than in the UK since I was a little tiny child.

  46. The Other Dawn*

    A very young family member posted on Facebook recently that he put in an application for a job (food service, I believe), and he said that he’s going to call to check on the status of the application and will keep calling. UGH NO! I told him, “No! Don’t call more than once! (And email is preferred.) It annoys the crap out of employers and you’ll likely be blacklisted or something.” He wrote back that he has to call otherwise they will forget he exists and you have to prove you want it these days. OMG I want to run screaming through the streets….

    1. Antti*

      I still have connections/2 administrative hours a week at my last food service job. Nobody forgets; just like anyone else we also have to keep applications on file. Also, if this is any moderately-sized urban area, they’ll be literally always hiring. Hopefully that’s some solace to him while you drive home the “apply and mentally move on” part of it.

    2. Ruth (UK)*

      Having worked a few years in a fast food store, I think that this isn’t as big a crime as it would be in an office or ‘white collar’ job. My experience (2 years full time in fast food, and 6 years on-and-off part time in other kitchen/food related jobs – between 2006-2012) has been that this type of approach (eg. going and asking about the job in person etc) is more likely to pay off in this industry – I got 2 of my jobs by literally going in person and asking for one.

      That said, it is becoming less the norm, but not as much less the norm as it is in office jobs.

      It also depends slightly if it’s an independent shop or a large business.

      I’m not saying I think he should call (and I think if he does, he should not do so more than once). But also, if this is a store anything like the ones I worked in, calling (once) would actually be preferable to emailing.

      1. Ruth (UK)*

        (decided to add: I live in a small city and one of these jobs was on a market stall. I think some small business just run in a more old fashioned way. For that job, there wouldn’t have really been anywhere to apply online or email. So… I mean I realise that stuff like this can depend on a lot of circumstances)

      2. The Other Dawn*

        I think it’s a job as a server, but I don’t know if it’s a restaurant with a website. From what I can tell, he walked in and applied, so maybe it’s not possible to email. Someone replied to his post saying that she got her job after calling repeatedly for a month and a half (!!) and thinks the manager hired her “just to shut [her] up. LOL”

      3. Not So NewReader*

        I see it here, too. Certain arenas and rural areas still go by these old methods. He might be okay, but I can’t be sure on that.

    3. caledonia*

      I had one of these recently and I quite bluntly said “Please do not keep on calling on a weekly basis because it will not change your status” and explained why.
      The next week he emails with further info for the interviewing panel *headdesk*

      Much like your family member, he was “recommended” to do this.

    4. Mar y Sol*

      My current job is fast food management and yeah, this is annoying. The first phone call isn’t so bad, but when they call back every day during lunch… yeah. (The reality, though, is that we are a very small town with a very limited pool of applicants, and often times we hire these applicants anyway. So it’s probably not a dealbreaker, but unless he is planning to work in the food service industry forever, I would still discourage it as a technique.)

    5. anon24*

      There are still people (like my mother) who insist you must call weekly and if you don’t you clearly don’t want the job.

      Then there are the teenage job type businesses that encourage you to do this. The place I worked at as a teenager we would get applications and tell them to call in a week to check in. If they didn’t call we wouldn’t usually hire them. If they did call and we weren’t hiring at the time we’d tell them to keep checking in every week or 2. Now I realize how terrible that was.

      Funny story though, we had one prospective hire who would call every Monday. And it was like he somehow magically knew when the manager was doing very involved, so I always ended up having the answer the phone, go to whatever obscure location on the property my boss was, tell him who was on the phone, and then relay the message for him to call back. I just wanted my boss to hire the darn guy so I didn’t have to talk to him on the phone anymore. He could tell from the other end that I was getting more and more annoyed when I talked to him, even though I tried to be nice. I would answer the phone and he would think “not her again, I hate talking to her.” How do I know this? Because he eventually got hired, we became best buddies, and now we are married :)

  47. Antti*

    I’m seriously considering a side gig. What other part- or quarter-time jobs are there for an office worker, aside from retail or food service? What do you all do?

    I’m not interested in returning to food service in any capacity (except maybe as a bartender? but that’s a big maybe, and also I have no experience there). I could do smaller retail, definitely no big-box stores, maybe. But ideally I’d prefer something else outside of customer service that could be done outside of the 8-4:30 office time. Any ideas on where to look or what to look for?

      1. Antti*

        Ooh, didn’t think of that. I can’t tell if certification is strictly required or not, something for me to research.

      2. Ariel Before The Mermaid Was Cool*

        I was coming here to say exactly this. I did it a few years ago until morning sickness and general exhaustion got the better of me from working full time in an office with an hour’s commute to and from work, 12 hours a week at Pharmacy, and course work for grad school.

        Now, 2 years later with grad school done and only a 30 minute commute, I’m actually starting back as a tech in January just to put some extra cash in savings.

    2. Alternative Person*

      Could you turn any skills you have freelance?

      I picked up various proof-reading/document building skills at a previous job that I use to get freelance jobs from time to time. It’s not much because I’m already very busy but if you pursue something diligently you can make a decent earner out of it.

      1. Antti*

        Perhaps. I’m pretty decent with proofreading and I have a good amount of foreign language skills, and I live a couple blocks away from a university. That might be a way to go.

        I’m also a classical musician and I pick up freelance gigs where I can, though lack of a car does hold me back because our public transit isn’t wonderful (this and living in an apartment are why I don’t currently have any students).

        1. Natalie*

          There’s always rideshare/taxi, or if you have short term car rental in your area (like zipcar or car2go) those might be worth checking out. People probably wouldn’t even notice a small increase in your rates if you needed to do that to cover the expense.

          1. Antti*

            Ugh, I wish we had Car2Go or Zipcar here, but we don’t. Otherwise, I’d have gotten on that long ago.

        2. Foreign Octopus*

          Teaching English? I teach online and I can set my own hours and own prices. It’s easy enough once you’ve brushed up on English grammar.

    3. Crochet Girl*

      I teach needlework at my local university’s continuing education program on Saturdays. I love it.

      1. Antti*

        Ooh, I do knit and I could potentially go that route. How did you get into doing that, if you don’t mind my asking?

        1. WellRed*

          In our area, there’s typically a way to submit your proposal to teach a class. Check their website, or class catalogue.

    4. Tableau Wizard*

      Maybe work at a local gym? I’m not sure what type of employees they hire or relevant skills you might have, but they have hours that extend well past the normal office work and aren’t food service or your typical retail.

      1. Antti*

        Good call. I definitely wouldn’t qualify to be a trainer or anything, but if there’s someone looking for like a receptionist or something I could definitely do that. Or cleaning, if they don’t contract that out.

    5. GriefBacon*

      If you knit, have you thought about Etsy? I crochet and started an Etsy shop a few years ago and it’s been great. It’s very much YMMV, but since I’m crocheting anyway in my free time, I figured I might as well sell it! People also apparently have a lot of success with Facebook buy/sell pages too.

      That said, when I was doing AmeriCorps last year, I started shopping/delivering groceries for Instacart. I wouldn’t want to do it full-time, but it was perfect as a side hustle — flexible hours, decent pay (I could make up to $20/hr on weekends, including tips), and just the right amount of customer interaction. You schedule your own hours, so you can work as much or little as you want. And evenings/weekends are the busiest time, so it’s great for that kind of availability.

      1. Antti*

        Oooh. I didn’t know Instacart was a thing! Do customers specify whether they want you to go to specific stores or anything, or could I set a geographical range? I won’t have access to a car for a few more months, and I wouldn’t even think about using a bike until maybe March.

        I’ve thought about Etsy. It might be something worth doing, especially since all my projects are smaller things like hats/scarves/mittens/socks. I’d definitely need to think about how to price my stuff so I’m not just breaking even but people would still pay for it.

    6. Natalie*

      In the gig economy department, if you are dog-competent you could check out Rover for dog walking or sitting jobs. As far as I can tell from using the site as a customer, you get to specify what services you offer and set your rates and calendar info.

    7. MissDisplaced*

      Well, there are many things you could do, depending on your skills/interests and if you can work weekends.

      Movie theaters
      Uber/Lyft
      School bus driver
      hotel desk clerk
      Auto dealerships Auto auctions (my husband drives cars around on weekends or delivers parts)
      Landscaping
      Lifeguard
      Events/Weddings/parties
      Gyms / Personal training yoga, etc.
      Weight Watchers meetings leader (my friend does this)
      Food stands at flea markets/fairs and the like (I once worked the Renn faire)
      Catering / Serving for a caterer on weekends
      DJ / Karaoke
      Baking/selling

      Creative skills: photography, design, illustration, writing, social media, website design and the like.

  48. Scaredy Cat*

    I’m starting a new job in the new year and have got so anxious about it that i’m not looking forward to it at all. I’ve been in my current job for several years and done really well. I think I just won’t be as good in this role, and am quite shy so I find it hard meeting a lot of new people. Feeling so stressed that I’m wondering if I should have stayed where I am, although it’s a really good opportunity! I don’t know how to feel better about starting somewhere new!

  49. Karo*

    Hey all! I have an interview coming up for a company with less than 20 employees. Is there anything you wish you had asked or known before accepting a job with a small company? I’m personally most concerned about whether they have an HR department (and how they handle issues if there isn’t one), but I’d love to hear all of your opinions.

    1. o.b.*

      HR (a person? a consultant? a folder in Dropbox?), benefits (my healthcare was an astounding $852/month…. I declined…), management structure (if your boss sucks, is there someone who can keep them in line? If that person sucks, larger, rinse, repeat), financial stability, office politics/culture, typical workload — basically everything you’d want to know about at a larger company. My experience is that the smaller the company, the more ability a bad manager has to run rampant and unchecked.

      That said, I have loved working for some small companies (even if they were crazy!). Good luck!

    2. Thlayli*

      If u are in the US ask to get a full breakdown of all benefits up front as part of any salary offer, since it’s my understanding that some things like FMLA don’t apply to small businesses.

  50. moql*

    What does business casual mean for a women? I was just hired into an office that is all men. They wear khakis and button ups with maybe a fleece or down jacket/vest. I hate wearing pants, so… dresses with tights and cardigans? I feel overdressed like that but maybe that’s just going to take me getting used to it? Can I get away with subbing leggings for tights on casual Fridays when everyone else is wearing jeans with their button up?

    Does anyone have any store or website reccomendations to help me thread this needle?

    1. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      My office is business casual, but leggings wouldn’t be acceptable at all, even on casual days. What you suggested about the dresses with tights and cardigans should be fine. If you do decide to wear pants at some point, slacks with sweaters and/or blouses should work too.

      1. Doodle*

        Leggings under dresses (instead of tights) = almost certainly fine. Agree on leggings not as pants in the office.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Yup, but my new company allows leggings as pants. It’s the only business casual place I’ve been in where that’s the case.

    2. KatieKate*

      My business casual closet includes:
      -sweater dress/tunic and leggings
      -blouse and khakis/ponte pants/skirt
      – sweater and khakis/ponte pants/skirt
      -dress with cardigan

    3. purple orchid pot*

      Leggings with dress or just leggings? The former, sure but the latter probably not a great idea. Some people get really bugged about the line between leggings and pants with more structure (though I personally don’t see the big deal).

      3. Karo*

        Ditto this. You may be able to push it to tunic with leggings, but I wouldn’t try that until you’ve been there for a while.

    4. Cloud Nine Sandra*

      I’m afraid leggings wouldn’t work at my office either. Skirts and tights and cardigans would be my suggestion. Also, if you have women higher ups, maybe see how they dress?

    5. AnotherAlison*

      I work in a similar environment. Dresses with tights and cardigans would work. You can dress up more if you want to, or wear a jersey or cotton type dress and still be fine. While some guys always wear khakis and a fleece, others that I work with dress up more (wool pants, dress button up shirt, sweater vest).

      Leggings are tricky. I think they’re fine if you’re wearing them with a dress or loose mid-thigh length work shirt (not a t-shirt or sweatshirt), but otherwise, I am a strong “no” on leggings in the office. The women who wear leggings-as-pants with waist-length shirts are noticed here and talked about for being unprofessionally dressed. (I’ve had senior men say things like “Those are not pants” and “I can’t believe they think that is appropriate for work” when women have walked by in such an outfit.)

    6. Lumen*

      I would disagree that leggings are never acceptable; it sounds like you mean wearing them under your skirt/dress, which seems perfectly reasonable to me on a casual Friday. In my office (also business casual) I see leggings in various outfits throughout the week, and no one is dressing inappropriately. We aren’t a “Ping Pong and Beer” sort of office, either; people dress nicely, but leggings are not some forbidden clothing item.

      When I began working at a similar office (all men, khakis and button-downs) I noticed that none of them took much notice of what I wore. However, it was a pretty dysfunctional IT firm and I think they were all just terrified that there were suddenly ‘girls’ around.

      I think what you described sounds nice. A cute skirt and a sweater would be a nice Friday outfit, too.

    7. Pollygrammer*

      If it’s all men, I doubt they’re going to notice the difference between dress-with-tights and dress-with-leggings. Your office sounds like it’s on the casual side of “business casual,” so I wouldn’t be too worried. Cardigans, sweaters, any top that isn’t a t-shirt should be fine.

    8. a girl has no name*

      In my business casual office, leggings are a big no. You can do dress pants or skirts and dresses with tights. I wear a lot of sweaters with dress pants or skirts in the winter. I get a lot of my clothing for work from LOFT or Express. I think it is best to err n the side of more formal than leggings at first.

      1. purple orchid pot*

        This person is talking about leggings only on casual Friday. She seems to have a good grip on typical business casual.

    9. Not So Super-visor*

      This is going to sound like I’m pushing a brand, but I promise that I’m not a seller/distributor. In an effort to minimize my wardrobe, I bought 4 different prints of the Julia dress from Lularoe (I actually bought them off of a resale sight so I didn’t pay full price but I made sure that they were new with tags). I picked prints that weren’t season specific and that I could easily pair with cardigans that I already owned for cold weather. With the cold weather, I through on thick tights/leggings (not LLR). On Fridays, it’s casual day so I just pull out my “nice” jeans and a nice blouse/sweater. I’ll tell you, this has greatly cut down on the morning “what to wear” time.

        1. BatteryB*

          Another vote for LuLaRoe dresses with leggings. They also have different styles of dresses if the Julia doesn’t suit your body type. I usually stick with the Carly dress with leggings and ankle boots (so it’s not apparent if I’m wearing leggings or tights). I’ve also been branching out with skirts, tops, leggings, and non-structured jackets.

          LLR prints can vary from pretty conservative to pretty out there. I have a mix. No one blinked an eye when I wore a Minnie Mouse print dress. :)

          I’m fortunate that even though I work at a Fortune 50 company, there is no dress code except cover appropriate parts. I asked when I was about to dye my hair two colors that don’t appear in nature.

    10. Red Reader*

      My general rule with leggings is that I only wear them in public with an outfit that would also be acceptable to wear in public without them. Under a knee-length dress: Okay. Under a waist-length shirt: Not okay.

      I have worn, and seen my boss and grandboss both wearing, leggings under knee-length skirts/dresses in our business casual office all days of the week, not just Fridays.

      1. Fiennes*

        Let’s just say it: leggings are okay for office wear *only* with tops that cover the crotch. That’s the line. If you have on a longer top, that falls beneath the hip, chances are no one will think twice. Any shorter and…no.

    11. NaoNao*

      I generally stick to skirts that are knee length or longer and are either a blend of knit and woven (like ponte) or woven (cotton, wool, suiting material, etc) with button down, collared shirts or if the shirt has no collar, it should be woven (not knit). Dresses can work but it’s hard to know the line a lot of times. Generally I think sheath, a line, shift, and fit and flare as long as they are knee or longer, are fine. Maxi, midi dresses, skater, “twirl” dresses, novelty fits, prints, or styles (cold shoulder, wrap, etc) may be harder to style for business casual.
      A few upscale looks:
      A crisp woven shirt with a pencil skirt, cardigan
      A sheath dress with blazer
      A midi-dress with cardigan or blazer
      A pleated wool skirt with pull over sweater
      A shift dress with a turtleneck under it and tights/boots with a blazer on top
      An a line skirt with a sweater set, button down, or pull over sweater
      A shirt dress in the summer

      Brands:
      J Crew
      Banana Republic
      Ann Taylor and LOFT
      Nordstrom Rack
      Eileen Fisher
      Chicos
      J. Jill
      Sundance (although they run casual)
      Madewell for casual Fridays

      Maybe TV shows set in corporate America can give you a very general starting point?

      1. fposte*

        I like the brand suggestions, but I think using TV as a guide for work anything is fraught with peril.

    12. moql*

      Thank you all for your responses! I feel much more confident now that I’ve got some advice from a variety of people!

    13. Seven If You Count Bad John*

      A couple weeks ago a teammate beckoned me over to her desk and asked me to pick up an item she’d dropped under her desk. She couldn’t pick it up herself because she was bare-legged under a tunic dress that was just barely decent standing upright. Pro-tip: No matter how relaxed your dress code is, if you can’t pick up a dropped item without embarrassment, your outfit is probably inappropriate for work.

      The same tunic with tights or leggings underneath would have been totally fine.

    14. Piano Girl*

      At my last job, I dressed up for the initial interview (dress, nylons, heels, etc). On the way out, I stopped by the receptionist’s desk and asked what most women wore to work. Monday came, and I was set.

    15. Thlayli*

      In my experience no one really knows what business casual means for women. You can basically get away with whatever you like. It’s one of the benefits of being a woman. I’ve worn jeans and never been told off.

    16. WillowSunstar*

      My office is so casual, people wear jeans & polo shirts during the summer months and jeans & flannel shirts or sweaters during the winter. The jeans must be clean and cannot have holes in them, but that is the only caveat. We also can wear sneakers, as long as they are clean.

      It always depends on the company, though. Some companies only allow pants/skirts during Monday-Thursday and jeans on Fridays. Skirts and blouses or casual dresses should be fine if you don’t like pants. In the upper Midwest though, you might regret not wearing pants during the winter months. Nylons don’t cut it when the high temp is -10.

  51. Alternative Person*

    So glad I took extra days of work off. The winter break this year is three working days. Just urgh. Thankfully missed out on the super awkward end of year pizza sit down too.

    I did get some potentially good info out of my boss when I managed to get a private meeting with him.

    1. He likes and appreciates the work I do and understands that I’m frustrated with the uphill battle I’m fighting regarding the work product at this branch.

    2. He was amenable to seeing if I could partially transfer away from the branch- I had a run in with two other co-workers where I made one quiet comment and they felt the need to make several loud ones in our open plan office full of clients. I told my manager I don’t want to be around if they think they can openly be rude about me- I don’t know if he spoke to them about it (and hey, I know I probably shouldn’t have said anything but the level of vitriol was way over the top for what amounted to ‘maybe take your own advice’).

    So I guess that’s good. I’m not exactly jumping for joy over the idea of renewing my contract with the company but the pay is good, hopefully I can spend less time around my current branch come April and I was accepted for the practical part of the professional development diploma so jumping to a new ship by April 2019 is looking like a decent possibility.

  52. Cassidy*

    I’m drowning in work while my manager browses the interwebs all day. I know this because we have an open office plan and my work station is directly behind her. Not looking for advice really, just need to vent so I can get through this GD day and go home.

    1. Not So Super-visor*

      Have you ever talked to her about your workload? Leave the part about her being on the internet out of it, but let her know that you’re struggling with your workload and see what can be done to make it more manageable.

    2. EddieSherbert*

      My workload fluctuates (when it’s product release time it literally quadruples), and during really heavy overload times I straight up ask my manager to help cover parts of my job.

      I’m also pretty blunt when laying out deadlines and saying, “okay, what’s priority because I can NOT do all of these by Friday” if manager is not available to help out.

      (My manager held my position before being promoted, so I am lucky in that they legitimate can do my job)

  53. Cloud Nine Sandra*

    I’m so excited, my temp job is turning permanent! (I was told twice this would not be happening but I guess minds were changed? I did make the argument a few months ago myself.) I have the offer letter and it’s not just benefits! paid vacation days! 401k! but I will be making 10% more than I made back in 2014, the last time I wasn’t a temp. (And this time it’s such a better work environment.) The job isn’t changing at all, though additional responsibilities will probably come later. So, YAY! And I hope everyone reading here hoping for a great job in 2018 gets it. :)

  54. [insert witty user name here]*

    General job search advice needed: how do YOU look for jobs when you don’t have a super specific focus? My husband is job searching and doesn’t really have a direct career path in mind. He’s had one office job (and is looking along those lines/in that industry) but did not complete his college degree (has also worked and is currently working in the restaurant industry – he wants to get back into a regular M-F, 8-5 type job). Aside from using sites like Indeed or going directly to websites for companies you know, how do YOU job search? How do you figure out what you know you don’t know (ie, we know there are jobs out there for applying – how do we find other companies that aren’t on the big meta-sites?)?

    1. KR*

      I went through this when I was looking for my current job because I had a wider range of experience and a Business Administration degree which you can use for a lot of different businesses. I looked at what type of business I would be able to do and industries that I would be interested in that I knew I had a good chance to be hired for (in my case: medical receptionist, dog kennels/day cares, administrative assistant, content creation/video media, low level IT work, customer service oriented work/customer service management, ect) and applied to jobs like that. I also looked at local businesses in the area and tried to imagine if I had the skills and experience to work there. Good luck

    2. Ruth (UK)*

      I job searched recently – I job searched (while currently employed in a call-centre style job) for around 5 months before getting my current job, which I started 3 weeks ago. I was looking for office/admin work.

      I job searched by specifically looking at the job-vacancy pages of particular companies/places/etc where I wanted to work. For me that included the county council website for my city (which also includes jobs based in schools), the university in my city (which is where I ended up getting a j0b), the main hospital in my city, and a few other places including a research park and a few other large (for the area) companies I knew about.

      You say, “Aside from using sites like Indeed or going directly to websites for companies you know, how do YOU job search?” but I actually can’t think of many other ways, unless you’re in an industry and/or at a level where you might have lots of personal contacts or something. I guess I chatted to people I knew to give me ideas of where I might not have thought of applying. I also did some google searches including my city name to try and come up with ideas of places I might not have thought of as places to work.

      In a previous job search (but not this one) I also registered with a recruitment agency. They mostly placed people in temp positions, but some temp jobs became permanent. That’s how one of my friends ended up working in the probation service.

    3. Mints*

      Yeah, I always just use Indeed and don’t foresee how I would use anything different. Like unless I’m headhunted, I wouldn’t know how to find secret network of jobs, and don’t think that’s realistic

    4. NoMoreMrFixit*

      I’ve been searching on job duties/tools/technologies needed rather than a specific role. Haven’t found a job yet but I found that I was seeing a wider potential pool this way rather than going for a specific position.

      Good luck with the job hunt.

    5. Ramona Flowers*

      When I was job hunting I spent some time looking at random people’s LinkedIn pages to see where they’d worked. That helped me get some ideas.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I have never had luck with this before, but in the last ten years my friends have helped me find jobs. I think the key is to look at who you are talking with, do they get out and around, do they know a lot of people? While these folks may not be close friends of yours you might notice that they always tell you something encouraging. These are the folks that he should let know he is interested in a new job. FWIW, close friends and family were not that helpful to me in job searching.

    7. Sam Foster*

      I start with skills and certifications and then work backwards. If a position has a certification or skill I possess I look to see if the rest of the job description aligns and then go from there.

  55. Real Estate EA*

    My boss is…interesting. She’s been here nearly two years and, at first, we got along. However, she’s started to exhibit some concerning behaviors and I need some advice.

    Primarily, she’s taking credit for my co-worker’s project and its success.

    My co-worker (CW) began a project over two years ago (before Boss Lady arrived, on his own [without being asked or assigned a task]) in which he submitted a grant for specialized equipment to make our work more efficient. Our past leadership “blessed” his efforts and let him run with it. CW received the grant and simply needed to follow through on the program’s requirements.

    Boss Lady approved the capital we needed to proceed (the grant would provide 90% of the funds, we had to come up with the remaining 10%) and let CW complete the project. This project is saving us a lot of money and everyone on our team is impressed and excited.

    Now, when speaking with others, Boss Lady is calling the project “her project” and essentially taking credit for the outcome (ex: “Did you see how much money we’re saving with my teapot upgrades?”). Her behavior is more than annoying because she didn’t assign him the task (she wasn’t even here when it started), nor was she involved in anything besides procuring the capital. She’s taking credit enough to where CW (a normally mild-mannered person) is getting pissed. I think the worst part is she doesn’t include or credit him in any way when making these remarks.

    Are we being too sensitive or is this something we need to bring up? If so, how do we do it?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      It’s his battle, unless he specifically draws you into it by asking for help. I might say something like “CW has been working on this for years!” I would pretend not to notice her choice of pronouns.
      At evaluation time, his eval should give him credit for the work.
      OTH, he could say to her, “You know, when you say ‘my upgrades’, I feel like my initiative and years of work are being ignored.”

      1. Real Estate EA*

        Thank you so much! I really like the last bit. I will go ahead and suggest something along those lines when he next brings it up. I think he’ll appreciate the non-confrontational phrasing.

    2. Ann O.*

      I can validate that your CW is not being oversensitive. My ex-manager did this type of thing, and it was one of the first red flags of the long chain of red flags that led me to change jobs.

      Unfortunately, I don’t know how you deal with it. I’m horrible at this type of thing and ended up changing jobs.

      1. Real Estate EA*

        Yeah, it’s not the best. Thanks for responding – it’s good to know we’re not overreacting.

  56. Lalaith*

    I had an interview yesterday that I’m pretty hopeful about. I want to send a thank you note, but I’m working with a recruiter. Is it still appropriate to send a note directly to the interviewer, or should I have the recruiter pass it along?

      1. Lalaith*

        Yep, the recruiter called me today to ask how the interview went so I asked him. He said it would be great if I sent them a note.

  57. Tableau Wizard*

    I love the idea of framing it as a new years resolution. It explains the “sudden” change while not making it a one-time thing. Eventually she’ll fall out of the habit.

    In terms of scripting, when they ask what your lunch plans are, you could say: “I’m working on a new years resolution to have more self-reflection time. I think my lunch break is a perfect time for it, and a much needed break in my workday. Thanks for understanding!”

  58. a girl has no name*

    I interviewed at a company that is not the right fit for me at all. I just have a gut feeling I would be unhappy. They called my references, and I think I might get an offer, but I don’t want the job. What is some verbiage for turning down the offer when they call?

    1. Interviewer*

      “I appreciate the offer, but I have decided to decline it. After careful consideration, I don’t this role will be the right fit for me. Best of luck in your search.”

    2. Seven If You Count Bad John*

      “Thank you, but on reflection, I really feel this wouldn’t be the right fit. I appreciate your time and attention and best of luck with the next candidate!”

  59. FD*

    Part of my job right now is setting out clearer expectations for our team. I want this to be genuinely useful, rather than the dry, boring, ‘other duties as assigned’ mess you usually get.

    What would you like to see when your managers discuss or set out expectations? What are common traps they fall into?

    1. Argh!*

      Where I work “other duties as assigned” usually means busywork.

      What else you could do would depend on whether your organization fears desk audits.

  60. Solaire*

    Hi folks, providing an update.

    I wrote in a couple times over the last few weeks about confiding my health issues (autism spectrum disorder, plus panic disorder) to my boss, who sent me a really nasty email about “excuses”, threatening to fire me (“we need to have a serious conversation in January about your future here”), and sent that all out to a bunch of other managers in our department. First two posts here ( https://www.askamanager.org/2017/12/open-thread-december-8-9-2017.html#comment-1754007 ) and here ( https://www.askamanager.org/2017/12/open-thread-december-15-16-2017.html#comment-1764416 ).

    I’m quitting next week. My situation has gotten slightly worse: I was written up for “disturbing behavior” with no explanation given, and I’m getting chastised for not finishing assignments that I finished weeks ago. Anything I send back like “I’m sorry if this got lost in your email, but we completed it on December 15th. Attached another copy for your convenience” is mysteriously ignored.

    It’sobvious that they’re simultaneously trying to bully me into quitting while building up a paper trail to justify firing me. While I know that, it’s still stressful, which is why I’m leaving. I have a few interviews coming up and I have plenty of savings. I don’t feel like putting up with abuse for longer just for a chance at unemployment, and I’ve judged the time and energy that a lawsuit or EEOC complaint would require would be more than I want to put into it.

    I told a few coworkers that I trust about the situation. One of them is trying to convince me to stay, but I’ve simply told him that my boss has burned the bridge between us. I’m considering telling him the whole story. I don’t know.

    Don’t need any advice right now, just wanted to let off steam. Thanks and Happy New Year.

    1. EddieSherbert*

      I remember your comments from the last few weeks. I’m so sorry to hear it’s gotten worse – my blood is boiling on your behalf! Your boss sucks.

      I hope your next job is AMAZING.

    2. caledonia*

      That sucks so much. I’m glad you have the option of quitting and best of luck that one of your interviews/things in the pipeline work out.

      I’ve never gone through a lawsuit or anything like that and can only imagine the amount of energy it would take up.

    3. Natalie*

      Ugh, that is such garbage on their part. But good for you! You’re being really proactive and reasonable in dealing with this, even though it must be annoying or upsetting. Best of luck finding a shiny new job with fewer assholes!

      1. Solaire*

        Thank you for your kind words!

        I would have a much better shot at unemployment if I wait it out until I get fired, but this is a very large bureaucratic org, meaning that could possibly take another month or two. It took over a week to get a “real” response to my request for ADA accommodations, and the initial part of making a complaint is mailing in a written description of the events to HR. So unless my boss completely flips out and accuses me of having a screaming violent meltdown, they’re going to take a while to let me go.

        The biggest reason I’ve decided to quit has been the level of anxiety I have when I need to go in to work vs. the level of anxiety I have when I leave. Once I’m done for the day, I feel a weight lifted from my shoulders.

        I have a lot of savings for someone my age and my expenses are very low. So I don’t see the value of wearing my mental health down for someone who hates me. Let him squirm at trying to replace me, especially when people know what my problem with him is and why I’m leaving.

        I left my last job on good terms and I see my old boss and co-workers from there regularly, so if I end up unlucky, I can literally walk back in there and go back to work there. I’d rather not (I liked the people a lot more than the job, if you get what I mean) but I have options. And I don’t think it’s good for my mental health to act as if I don’t.

    4. Observer*

      Apply for unemployment. You may be able to make the case that what you experienced was constructive dismissal.

      Also, it probably doesn’t have to take that much time and energy for a complaint to the eeoc, especially since you’re not worried about burning bridges. They are the one who are going to be doing the work.

      1. Solaire*

        On the unemployment front, you have a good point. I have copies of all electronic correspondence and a written log of what I experienced day to day. It couldn’t hurt.

        With EEOC, I might do that. While I would be happy seeing the asshole managers in this place squirm, and hopefully get some punishment for being assholes, I would prefer to get this over with ASAP and not have to worry about scheduling time off for appointments with mediators or lawyers and legal bills 6 months down the line. Especially when I already have interviews and a potential offer lined up. I know that the option of dropping the claim or whatever exists. I’m just not sure yet.

        Thanks for your encouragement in sticking up for myself!

        1. Close Bracket*

          I used the words “constructive dismissal” with regard to some job duties that I had ceded during an EEOC conversation, and it shut the attorney for my former employer right up. I ultimately lost the war, but I definitely won that skirmish, so I guess those words do carry some weight!

    5. Close Bracket*

      I’ve been hoping for an update from you, and I’m sorry to hear that things got so much worse at work. Speaking as someone who has been through similar, you have all my sympathy. I’m glad to hear that you have prospects. I hope to read an update saying you have a fabulous and challenging new job and coworkers who recognize that your differences are just part of human diversity.

      1. Solaire*

        Thank you so much! I’m lucky that I have a good support network, which includes folks here at AAM.

        I’m in a much better place than I was the last time I had a boss antagonizing me over my condition. Last time was a few years ago, so I have a few more years of experience in the work force, plus more experience understanding myself and taking care of myself as an adult (I’m still in my 20s). I also know more about how to talk to HR. My boss at that job was also a lot better at making himself look like he was doing what HR asked on paper while antagonizing me in more subtle ways. My boss here isn’t good at that. I don’t think that anything he’s done so far would actually get him in any worse trouble than HR quietly telling him to cut it out. I don’t think anything he’s done so far has been truly illegal (I spoke to a few lawyers) and I don’t feel like hanging around until he does, or provoking him into it for a future lawsuit or EEOC case would be useful for me in any way.

        My resume is much better now and I have plenty of savings. I’m not at the pinnacle of my industry but I can walk out of this job and be fine as long as my next job is for a year or more (again, tech, so there’s less stigma about “job hopping”).

        Since I’ve only been at this job for six months I can leave it off my resume once I find a new job. My only real worry is what I’ll say in interviews for that next job, since this company has a reputation for lifers. They have a pretty negative reputation right now, so I’ve been saying “I was sold on the position with Company X as it being a great opportunity to reform the company from within and work on something really meaningful to me, but unfortunately that was just the sales pitch. Five people in my department have left since I started and we haven’t done any interviewing for replacements yet, so I don’t think it’s going to work out for me there.”

  61. Really Need New Job*

    Unfortunately, I do not have any other coworkers who might want to give me a good reference (we don’t talk a lot socially and we do not have a much friendly relationship–this is another reason why I want to change jobs).

    Would new employer be skeptical of me if I can’t get a good reference from my recent old employer?

    I fear their skepticism might cause them to rescind my job offer.

    1. Argh!*

      I think they usually call references between interview & job offer, or maybe before the interview, but definitely before the job offer. If you get to the interview stage you could work in some kind of reasonable sounding excuse why you didn’t list your previous boss as a reference.

  62. Cranky and Broke*

    The blushing bride in HR yet AGAIN didn’t file my tuition reimbursement on time. I am so sick of her being too distracted by her frocking WEDDING to do her job right.

    I am thrilled and grateful that my company gives us a set amount towards college per year–I know I’m lucky. I couldn’t afford to go on my own. But I have to pay the bill, them submit proof of payment to get reimbursement.

    Last semester she “lost” my forms and I waited over two months to get reimbursed. Now she’s screwed up again, despite promising that my last check of the year would have the reimbursement. I can’t afford to float three grand until she gets around to doing her job! *primal scream*

    1. Snark*

      I think it’s time to approach her supervisor. “This is now the second time that I’ve had to float several thousand dollars past when I was told I’d be reimbursed, and I cannot continue to do so.”

      1. Frankie Bergstein*

        Is there a paper trail (your emails + lack of responses?) If so, maybe get that in order before talking with the supervisor? I watched my boss do this with a grandboss, and the conversation went smoothly. The paper had all of her email attempts, dates, and a phrase summarizing the content. Same for responses or lack of responses.

    2. Detective Right-All-The-Time*

      I second that this should go to her manager now. It’s a repeated pattern that needs to be resolved now.

      This is probably also a big deal for Payroll. They’re not going to be happy that they will have to do extra work to accurately record a reimbursement for 2017 during 2018.

      1. Natalie*

        It might be a bigger deal than that, even – taxes typically work on a cash basis rather than an accrual basis, so it doesn’t actually matter what year the money was *for*, what matters is what year you actually receive the money. I am NOT a tax accountant so don’t quote me on this, but if you receive the reimbursement next year I believe it would count towards your 2018 non-taxable reimbursement limit, even though the class was taken in 2017.

        Given all of that, if you have any possibility of getting a check today, I would get in touch with the HR manager and payroll and see if you can make that happen.

  63. Sera*

    I opted not to take the three days between Christmas and New Year’s off, so technically I’m meant to be working these three days…except my superiors all wanted to take these days off, and so also wanted all the work completed by last Friday, which it was.

    So yeah…not exactly sure what I’m meant to be doing these few days. Reading the archives here apparently. Jolly ho.

    1. Snark*

      Same boat. I’m a contractor. I’m saving my leave for Barcelona in March. EVERY SINGLE project I’m working on requires input from others to move forward, and they’re all on leave because they’re lifer Federal employees and have about nine thousand years of leave banked. So……*twiddles thumbs*

    3. Argh!*

      Knowing that I didn’t have to worry about running into my boss for three days in a row made it seem like a party this week!

    4. Fiennes*

      Before I became a contractor, I *always* volunteered to work those days. I never had more than an hour or two of real work to do, which meant I could catch up on anything backlogged and still count on spending an hour or two reading a book. The stress levels went way down, and best of all, I had vacation days to spend at other times of year, when travel wasn’t as frenetic and prices are lower.

  64. Lillian Gilbreth*

    Who do I ask about general stuff when I’m matrix managed? I started my first job in June at a small firm (~24 employees total) and I don’t have a direct supervisor. Junior staff gets passed around from manager to manager (sometimes a mid level person, sometimes a VP) depending on what project they’re on. However, because this is my first job I frequently have little questions about workplace norms and things like that that I don’t feel comfortable asking someone I don’t know well/have only worked with for a bit.

    I do have an assigned “mentor,” another junior person (1 level above me) but he isn’t the most approachable person. He’s good with specific questions about work stuff, but for things like “how do I request leave” I don’t feel comfortable asking him. I’ve struck up a close work friendship with someone at the very top level of what’s considered junior staff, and I generally default to asking him, but sometimes I feel like I’m being annoying and/or silly. Is there a way others have handled this?

    (Possibly feeding into this is that I am the only woman on junior staff, just as a side note.)

    1. only acting normal*

      Either ask your assigned mentor (and don’t feel awkward about it, that’s what he was assigned for, any awkward generated because he’s unapproachable belongs to him, not to you), or ask your top-level-junior-work-friend as part of your general chatting. I’ve been the bit-more-senior-work-friend/sounding board for several people, and I’ve never minded being asked that stuff (even though we assign formal mentors like yours to new hires – people don’t always gel, and that’s ok).

      1. Lillian Gilbreth*

        Thank you! This is helpful. I know I shouldn’t feel weird about going to my mentor, but I do. He also shares an office with another level 1 person so I feel like I then look silly in front of another person, while work buddy has his own office.

    2. periwinkle*

      Is there someone in the firm who is in an administrative assistant type of role? A good AA is a fountain of useful knowledge and can generally either get you the answers or direct you to the right person to ask.

      Otherwise, ask your work friend if this kind of info is documented anywhere (employee handbook, intranet page, etc.). How did he get answers to such questions when he first joined the firm?

      1. Lillian Gilbreth*

        I have the handbook and the intranet, generally I’m asking him more logistical things. He is one of the few people in my firm who didn’t start right out of school, so I assume he was better about some of the day to day realities of being in an office that I’m still not so great at :/

    3. fposte*

      First: I love the username so much!

      Second: I think it’s probably fine to ask either your mentor or the person you usually ask. (I presume we’re not talking a ton of questions every day here.) But can you figure out what it is that makes it uncomfortable about asking your mentor? Is it possible there’s a format he’d rather be asked in, and can you find out what it is? Alternatively, you can just ask the person you usually ask if he can answer some procedural questions or if there’s somebody else you should be asking.

      1. Lillian Gilbreth*

        Honestly, I think my discomfort comes from the fact that he is just super work focused. Like, once a month or so we all go out and get drinks or something but my mentor never comes. He even skipped our company holiday party!

        It’s not many questions per day, maybe one per week at this point. More if something specific comes up, like when I was supposed to do some very last minute travel or when I was put in charge of my first project (in both of those situations, work buddy came up and asked if I needed anything and said to come to him with questions. In the second instance he actually called me several times when he was on vacation to see if I needed anything!)

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Then when you are around him, do as he does, be that super work focused person.
          Sometimes these folks make the best mentors. They know the biz like they know how to breathe. He sounds very nice. Probably he feels formidable? Try to push through that. I had a cohort that was all biz, but damn she was GOOD at her stuff. So I mirrored her attitude when talking with her. It was not long and that wall came down we were talking like friendly coworkers. She even gave me a ride once.

  65. Anom*

    This week’s career question: anyone working in a role that is primarily about education but is *not* being a k-12 teacher? I’m thinking things like college teacher (not necessarily professor), private tutor, corporate trainer? I’m sure there’s other stuff but I can’t think of any.

    Going on vacation for 2 weeks and I’m actually anxious to leave because I’ve got a lot of work undone. I hate it when I’m here but also when I’m not.

      1. Anom*

        I think I’d like to do the college ESL thing some day. Right now I’m in a completely unrelated field (IT). I figured I’d go overseas and see how I like teaching before I commit to further education. Eventually I’d like to teach part time at the high school or college level.

        Can you let me know about how you got into it? Did you enjoy it or was it a part time thing? And any tips or advice for someone planning to enter the field (or even just, don’t do it!)?

        1. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

          Sure! I got into it because I wanted to go overseas (even though, funnily enough, I never did teach overseas although I have doing other things), so the first thing I did was get my CELTA certification. I did a month-long course through Teaching House (link in followup comment), which is a pretty well known and (as far as I can tell) well regarded organization.

          I know you say you don’t want to get further education before you know whether you like it or not, but it miiiiiiiiiiiiight be worth getting your CELTA now if you can afford it and have the time (mine was full time, 8ish hours a day, for a month, but there are some part-time courses; I absolutely WOULD NOT recommend doing an online course because of the differences in instruction between teaching in person and teaching online). The reason I say this is because the CELTA will open you up to better and more reputable jobs depending on where you’re interested in going; I’ve heard lots of horror stories about people having to work extra hours or even having their passports held by their employers so they couldn’t just leave. I don’t know where you’re interested in going (and this does vary a lot by country), so I can’t really give specifics, but a CELTA might really help you if you want to go abroad. For more specific country-related questions, I’d recommend the TEFL subreddit or Dave’s ESL Cafe (link in followup comment).

          Another thing to note, though, is that you probably will not be able to teach high school in the US with just a CELTA (or without a CELTA if you decide not to get one). Colleges seem to have more flexibility there (given that I taught at one with a BA and a CELTA), but most high schools have other certifications that are required. This will vary a lot by state/county (and if you have a lot of charter schools nearby, they might be good places to look because they seem to be more flexible regarding certification, although I’ve heard a lot of horror stories about working at charter schools as well), so look into the specifics of where you want to teach, but you’ll probably need some kind of further certification to teach at the high school level in the US.

          I hated teaching, but then I struggle a lot with planning. What would happen with me is I’d plan a lesson that looked really good on paper and then wind up not being able to execute that lesson in reality (I have ADHD and was undiagnosed when I was teaching, which probably didn’t help). If you’re a planner by nature, though, you probably won’t have that issue, or at least not to the extent I did; I was practically having daily breakdowns by the time I had to quit because I just. couldn’t. work that way. I also hate having to repeat myself constantly, which meant that I got irritated (although I didn’t let it show) with students who struggled with certain concepts more quickly than other teachers seemed to. But if you’re okay with planning and repeating yourself, you should probably be in good shape, lol. I also had a hard time with having to spend so much of my non-work time creating lessons and grading papers (which comes with the territory when you’re a teacher).

          I taught part time in the US; I would probably have needed a lot more experience to teach full time anywhere because there just aren’t that many ESL jobs here. That was another frustration because I wasn’t making enough to live on even though I was spending so much time outside of work and dealing with all that extra stress.

          So in conclusion, teaching was very, very wrong for me, but that doesn’t mean it’s wrong for everyone. I have a lot of friends who are teachers who are incredibly passionate about their jobs and really love teaching.

          2. Anom*

            Thanks a lot, that was really helpful. Pay and stability are both pretty big concerns for me. I’m actually working on an online TEFL certificate now. I totally get what you’re saying about quality of online vs in person but I’ve already paid for it so I’m going to finish it. Is it something where you think you could have cobbled together enough part time gigs to make a decent living? When you were a private tutor was it with a company or did you get your own students? How did you find that? I’m thinking some combination of university courses and private tutoring is the way I’d go, just wondering if it’s feasible.

            1. Foreign Octopus*

              I hope David doesn’t mind if I jump in here but I can answer some of these questions as well as I teach ESL online.

              I actually make enough money through teaching online that I don’t need any in-person gigs. Admittedly, I live in Spain where the cost of living is much, much cheaper than other places, but it’s enough for me here.

              I work through an online website, which is great for learning languages as well (iTalki – link to follow). I uploaded my profile, for which I did need a certificate, and had to wait about 2 weeks before they confirmed me as a teacher on the site and then I was off. My students found me and I now teach about 30 hours a week, sometimes more, sometimes less, but at the end of the month it all balances out.

              As for teaching via companies, it’s not for me. I don’t like working for other people, and seeing some of the issues that my friend has gone through with one particular company, I’m happy to avoid it. They wanted her to share all of her teaching resources while only paying her an hourly rate for her lessons with no benefits, and if you’re early in your career, then that might seem like a good idea but it’s not. That isn’t saying though that all companies are bad, they’re just not for me.

              I think your idea of university courses and private tutoring is a good way to go. Online teaching could maybe provide you with extra stability because it takes a while to get your financial feet under you.

              2. Anom*

                I’ve heard of italki, but many people say it’s a race to the bottom with lots of non-native speakers charging <$10/hour. How do you find it? How much are you able to charge? With 30 hours/week, I'm assuming you have a lot of repeat students? What did you do to get to that level, and how long did it take?

                1. Foreign Octopus*

                  Yes, non-native speakers do charge less but simply because they can’t get away with charging what native speakers charge.

                  I’ve found that people will always, always prefer a native speaker teaching them over a non-native because they seem to think that it’s better. There are debates about that, and I personally consider non-native teachers better at teaching the grammar because they’ve actually learnt it from (in many cases) a young age whereas native teachers don’t always have that advantage.

                  I charge $17 an hour (no one really charges more than $18 because that seems to be the limit for what students are willing to spend) and I do have a lot of repeat students. One guy has been with me for four-six hours a week for the last six months, which is fantastic.

                  Honestly, I didn’t actually do much. It started out slow, obviously, but people book trial lessons (which they pay for) and then, if they like you, they keep coming back. I’ve found that two-three months is the normal length of time to have a normal student with me but some do stay longer, like my guy.

                  As for how long it took, I started in the summer (stupid time to start, no one wants English lessons then for some reason) but it only took me about two months to get to a comfortable level. Had I started in January or February, it would have taken less time.

                  If you’re a qualified, native teacher then people will come to you.

              3. Julianne*

                I thought about taking on some tutoring a few years ago and actually got a job offer to do 1-on-1 tutoring from a company that only paid for actual teaching time, no prep. I declined because I felt the hourly rate was too low to “stretch” it to cover my prep time, too, but also because I just object to unpaid prep time on principle. I do realize that not everyone has the option to turn down work, or has the same objections I do, but I think it’s preferable for individuals, as well as for teaching as a truly professional profession (regardless of what one teaches), to not accept unpaid prep time as the norm.

            2. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

              I probably could have cobbled together 40+ hours of gigs (classes plus private tutoring), but I probably would have had to work 7 days a week, and summers/other school breaks might have been tough.

              I tutored with private companies to start with, which I think is probably the best way to go if you’re a beginner/new to tutoring. If I’d decided tutoring was what I wanted to do long-term, I would have branched out into finding my own students. I didn’t have the same issues with private companies that Foreign Octopus’s friend had–one had workbooks that they wanted us to tutor out of when we weren’t doing homework help, and the other had no expectation that we would be creating our own materials and definitely never tried to make us share anything.

              I found the companies I tutored for through Craigslist, which is apparently crap in a lot of areas but which was good where I was (and presumably still is, I’m just not looking for jobs there anymore). So if you happen to be in the DC area, Craigslist is a good way to go. :)

              I never taught or tutored online, so I really can’t comment on experience with online companies.

              1. Foreign Octopus*

                This is great though. It gives Anom two different sides of the experience.

                I can’t speak to Craigslist but there are always websites out there where you can find classes. And if you do look into online teaching, don’t limit yourself to American websites. Look into foreign websites and advertise there as a native, online teacher (use Skype), but be careful of the time difference!

                Full confession: I did spend a year teaching at an English Academy in Spain when I just qualified and it really helped me as a teacher. I hated teaching children but it taught me a lot about the physical act of teaching so I do recommend doing in-person teaching for a while if you can.

          3. Julianne*

            I taught English in Peace Corps and considered continuing to teach abroad after I completed my service, although ultimately I did not. (I teach ESL in a public elementary school in the US now, with state certifications in elementary education and ESL [and also other areas].) The advice above about the CELTA is 100% consistent with the advice I read and received when I was considering that path. I spent a lot of time browsing the Dave’s ESL Cafe forums too; there is a lot of good advice there.

            Teaching in US K-12 schools will require a credential separate from CELTA, although the hurdles to getting that certification may vary by state or even by district. Two years ago, my district was basically offering state waivers (emergency teaching credentials) and PD for anyone with a pulse who wanted to get certified to teach ESL, because we lost a huuuuuuge lawsuit and suddenly needed well over 100 new ESL teachers. Now it’s harder to get those waivers and the need is less, so not so much; we’re by far the largest district in our area, so there’s been a bit of spillover and most of our neighbors are tightening the requirements as well. However, there are still many places where getting your foot in the door can be relatively easy. Charters, as pointed out, are often more flexible regarding certification, but the pay is lower, the hours are longer, and opportunities may not even be there, since it’s not uncommon for charters to enroll fewer ELLs (though this can vary depending on the local demographics).

      1. Anom*

        What did you teach? And how did you find the experience? I get that a lot of instructor positions are part time with little or no benefits, but I think I’d be ok with that since I’m in Canada. I’m more worried about the pay and the job opportunities. Do you have any advice?

        1. Snark*

          I taught a couple of biology/environmental science seminars and a supplemental seminar for first-gen college students. This was in the US, so your experience may vary, but the benefits were excellent (as we were state employees) and the pay was so abysmal I worked nearly full time in a retail store just to keep my head above water – $18-19k, US, per year. I made almost as much selling spices and seasonings to foodies (and had more fun).

          Overall the experience was mixed – I enjoyed the role, I enjoyed teaching, but the amount of hours (office hours, prep, and actual lecture) I had to work worked out to a sub-minimum wage hourly rate, for skilled work requiring a masters’ degree or higher. It was pleasant, but no way to make a living, and not ultimately worth it. I went to work for the Environmental Protection Agency and nearly tripled my salary, working no more than 40 hours a week and with equal benefits.

        2. Horizons*

          What is your masters degree in? Accrediting agencies require college instructors to have a certain amount of hours at the masters level in that field. In my region, you need 18 hours of that discipline.

          Then, take a look at the HR site for local institutions; they often have a call for adjunct pools. You can also try “cold calling” by email the chair of the desired department.

          If you are looking for a full time instructor position… your best bet is if you have a professional degree and experience. Nurses with masters level degrees can get a position without blinking. If your masters is in the liberal arts, well, the job market in the US is abysmal.

    3. periwinkle*

      HR training & development person here. I’ve done instructional design for corporate training but am now focused on the strategic side of shifting our focus from training to learning. There are a lot of people in this field with M.Ed degrees and K-12 experience.

      1. Anom*

        What does HR training and development typically involve? I’d like to be doing actual instructing, not just creating course materials. I’m willing to go back to school to break into this field but would prefer not to if I don’t have to. What sort of experience do you need to get into this, and what does pay look like in this field?

        1. periwinkle*

          If teaching is your passion, this isn’t the right direction for you. We do have full-time trainers but most of them are subject matter experts who moved to the instructor role.

          However, if you’re interested in training in a corporate environment… there are many companies out there which specialize in delivering courses to their corporate clients. For example, our company wanted all HR personnel to go through training on unconscious bias in the workplace. We hired a vendor to provide the course and trainers rather than try to do it ourselves. So if you don’t mind traveling, this is an option to explore!

    5. Horizons*

      I’ve done adjunct teaching- no benefits, and pay is minimal ($2700-$3500 per class per semester.) I enjoy it as a side gig and a way to keep my teaching chops, but there’s zero stability. In a budget cut, the first thing to go are the adjuncts. You can get fired (or hired!) the day before the semester starts depending on enrollment.

    6. School Psych*

      I went from working as a K-12 teacher to being a school psychologist. It was a great change because I still get to work with kids, but don’t have to do any planning and very rarely do work at home. With the degree I have I can work in schools, hospitals, clinics, teach at the university level, do educational research ect. I also do some consulting with teachers and administrators. I’m interested in direct service, but there are people with my degree who work as supervisors in schools and mental health programs and do more program development work. If you’re interested in working in education and willing to go back to graduate school, I would recommend looking at school psych programs. If you only want to do a limited amount of graduate school, the Board Certified Behavior Analyst credential can completed in around a year. BCBA’s do program development and research, parent training, supervise therapists, work 1 on 1 with students and do a wide variety of other mental health/education related work. Some BCBA’s who do their field placements in corporate settings also do corporate training and workplace development.

      1. Anom*

        Thanks! That’s something I hadn’t considered but it seems interesting. I was also thinking of speech language pathology.

        1. School Psych*

          Speech language pathology is a great career with a lot of flexibility, but from what I’ve heard, it is extremely competitive to get into a graduate program in this field. I work with some very good school-based speech language pathologists, who were rejected from every program they applied to on their 1st round of applications. The number of training programs hasn’t really kept pace with how popular the field is or the number of job openings.

  66. Kikishua*

    How many commentators on here are librarians. Because it seems like there are quite a lot… (this includes me).

      1. Evilduck*

        This makes me laugh because I’m working at my library today and as I walked in, I was pondering if any of my librarians followed AAM. Then I wondered if they were to look at my “Want to read” list on my account if they could tell that I follow AAM based on all the Alison recommendations on there.

    3. Matilda Jefferies*

      I’m not a librarian exactly, but I do have an MLS and have made my career in a related profession. Does that count? :)

    5. Circus peanuts*

      I am a library paraprofessional. So that means my family and friends who do not know the library world think that I am a librarian no matter how many times I explain it.

    8. Library Manager*

      Typing from my librarian office, wondering if I should ask a librarian manager question. (how does one encourage organization of storytime closets?)

  67. Camellia*

    tl;dr – Would you want your husband to give up his only income of $1000 a month in order to become a consultant with no guarantee of income because he’s disabled and can’t keep a fixed schedule nor sit in an office chair eight hours a day forever-and-ever? When you may not be able to work much longer yourself and you have very little in the way of retirement? I want to be supportive of him, but I’m scared.

    Long story:

    My husband is disabled due to severe nerve damage. Fifteen years ago his surgeon told him, “You can no longer perform meaningful labor.” On a GOOD day, his pain level is 7 on a scale of 10, and there is no pain medicine that can even reduce the pain much less make it go away. He can’t sit in an office chair for more a couple of hours at a time, he can’t stand for more than 20 minutes, and he can’t walk for too long – a trip to the grocery store is about it. On bad days he can’t get out of bed; on good days he needs a two or three hour nap in the afternoon (dealing with constant pain is very tiring). Nerves don’t heal, so short of a medical miracle there is no possibility of him being able to work a standard 9 to 5 job ever again.

    It took us four years of going through the process to get him Social Security disability, which is $1000 a month. Which was okay; I work in IT and earn a decent salary. I have a small pension from a former company, but other than that, we don’t have anything for retirement. I once had a 401K, but in some years our out-of-pocket medical expenses are as much as $25,000 (I also have some medical issues), so that went, along with any other savings. We manage to keep about two paychecks’ worth of money in savings, but that is it. And I am five years from “Social Security retirement”.

    Still not too bad because I always thought I would have to work until I die anyway – no retirement for me! But five years ago I had eye issues that cost me the sight in one eye. And this past year, those same issues have started to occur in the other eye. Now the concern is whether I will
    retain my eyesight long enough to work until I qualify for “Social Security retirement” (assuming it’s still around 0_0).

    Back to my husband – he is both brilliant (IQ of 157) AND smart, knowledgeable in a wide variety of areas, determined, focused, does what he says he will do, and not only that, his EQ is unbelievable. He connects with people, and connects people, in a way that I have never seen before. For example, the “single-owner, one truck-one trailer, this will be my business when I retire from my real job” landscaper that has worked for us for the past year does a great job and my husband recommends him whenever he can – and my husband knows so many people in places like HOAs that, in just six months, this guy had enough work to buy two more trucks and trailers and hire people for two more crews. Same for the realtor who sold us our house, and the fireman with the side job of doing home inspections, and the lawyers for the various HOAs, and the police officers who do our security, and on and on and on. Children we don’t know wave at him from across the store or restaurant, and ‘unfriendly’ dogs come over and lean against his leg while their owners are explaining how unfriendly they are and how they won’t, uh, do that…and I am seriously NOT exaggerating. My husband is the only person I know who can move twenty miles away, walk into a random grocery store there, and have someone in the line behind him say, “Hi, [husband’s name]! How are you doing?” (It was the cashier of the McD’s take out window, back where we used to live! And he knew her name, even without her nametag.)

    Everyone who talks to my husband for any length of time wants to hire him. The best job offer he’s had to turn down so far was a written offer from a tech company across the country, for $150,000 a year with a complete relocation package including buying our current house so we could move – it started with him talking to a person he met on-line gaming, and he didn’t encourage them, they just kept pursuing him thinking he just wanted a sweeter deal. He had to turn them down. He framed the offer letter.

    So the past year he has been helping (think ‘research’; I can’t tell you how he got involved) with a lawsuit that will wrap up in March. These $500-an-hour lawyers have dropped a hint that they might be interested in hiring him when this concludes. That, and the (unpaid) work he has done with businesses like the HOAs, has him thinking that he could become a ‘consultant’, for lack of a better word, able to be flexible enough in his hours to accommodate any issues he has. But any significant income at all would mean he loses the Social Security $1000. And of course, as mentioned above, there’s no guarantee of income, especially consistent income, but on the other hand, there might be lots of income.

    I want to be supportive of him, but I’m scared. What do you all think?

    1. NaoNao*

      The first thing I would do is work out the budget. Can you survive without that 1000? If you can, I’d say support him and just go with the flow.
      If money is too tight and you absolutely need that 1000, maybe sit down with him and show him exactly where it goes. Are there *any* areas of the budget you could squeeze for a few months while he tries it?
      The things is….many wonderful, personable and amazing people don’t get hired or don’t get steady work (just a spin through these archives will make an optimistic person blanch at times) or take a risk and wind up getting burned. Being smart, and well loved doesn’t always equal job skills and the savvy, experience, and skills/knowledge to get a consultancy business up and running. It is a *tremendous* amount of work for even the most qualified people.
      Can he start doing this stuff “officially” for free in some capacity and see how well it goes? Could he invest in some credentials, classes, or webinars and get a feeling for this?
      I am thinking of Anthony Bourdain’s classic chapter about the well loved, rich, and well connected people who started a restaurant and flamed out in less than 6 months, and the cautionary tale he writes thereafter: “But you know everyone! Everyone loves you! You’ll do great!” It’s worth a read (I think it’s in Kitchen Confidential). Same for books like “Ground Up” about starting a coffee shop with this idea “I’ve got people, book, and street smarts, what could go wrong?” Heh.

      1. Camellia*

        Great points, and we’ve started discussing them already – what it would take to get up and running, sources for info, and so forth.

        “Squeezing the budget for a few months while he tries it…” Unfortunately, since the income is from Social Security, you can’t just drop it and then pick it up again whenever you want. It took us four years to walk through all the steps to have them officially recognize his disability and start payments. Not sure what happens if he starts earning money again, that is one of the things we have to research.

        Love books so will be looking for these. Thanks for the recommendations!

    2. only acting normal*

      It’s a tough call. All I can think of is to make sure, if and when he’s deciding his hourly rate, he doesn’t undersell or undercharge for the skills that come so easy to him.
      At the *right* hourly rate he could far exceed that $1000/month within his acceptable levels of exertion. But you’re quite right about the unpredictability of contract work. (I do know people who’ve been “contractors” but essentially worked exclusively for one client, including part-time with flexible hours.)

      Knowing the (un)predictability of his condition might factor in. E.g. Does he have bad/good days, but would typically be able to do a certain limited number of hours within any given week (so negotiate deadlines to account for this). Or does he have extended bad/good patches (harder to plan deadlines around) impacting income and possibly future work offers.

      1. Camellia*

        So many things involved on setting rates! One of my concerns is tax brackets, especially with the new tax laws now. Our taxes are already high since we don’t have many exemptions. How would different levels of earnings affect our taxes, etc. If additional income would bump us into a higher tax bracket we might have a net result of minus income instead of more!

        1. Megan*

          Additional income *shouldn’t* work out to a net decrease because of taxes because tax rates are marginal, ie if the rate up to $50,000 is 10%, and the rate for the next tax bracket is 15%, then if you earn $50,001, you only pay 15% on the last dollar and your taxes will be $5000.15 (10% * $50,000 + 15% * $1). Of course, actual taxes have more complicated things going on, and it’s never a bad idea to research.

          It seems pretty risky to give up guaranteed disability payments because those are difficult to impossible to get back from what I understand, but there’s a pretty good potential upside here so it might be worth it. I’d definitely have a plan for a nearly-worst case scenario here if you decide to go for it – could you survive on just your income? And then on social security retirement benefits?

    3. Amber Rose*

      It sounds to me like if this doesn’t pan out, getting a job after will be easy enough, so why not try. If you’re worried about income management, maybe you could talk to a financial advisor?

      Also like, talk to the guy. He loves you. If you say you want to be supportive but are scared, you can probably start a useful conversation.

      1. Camellia*

        I’m not sure what you mean about ‘getting a job after will be easy enough’. If you are referring to my husband, he can’t work a regular job at all. That’s why the thought of being a ‘consultant’ is so tempting. If you mean me, I already have a job. :)

        Yeah, we talk about it, and he knows my feelings. He is not sure 100% he wants to try this either. One reason I wanted to share on here is to get some different input that neither he nor I have thought of yet; y’all always have good input!

    4. Helpful*

      He sounds like a guy with a lot to offer, but it sounds too risky for my level of risk tolerance. I suggest getting him involved with volunteering at a highly intellectual level. Mentoring start up founders? Continuing to network and help people grow their careers? He sounds talented and like he has a lot to give. It just doesn’t have to be paid work.

      1. Helpful*

        And just to keep thinking outside the box— perhaps you could operate on a friendly barter system instead of cash. I’m not advising acting fraudulently, but perhaps there are other ways to look at this.

      2. It happens*

        I will second Helpful’s suggestion. Maybe look into SCORE – retired executives volunteering with small businesses. I don’t suggest this because I don’t think your husband could make money – only because the risk of losing the guaranteed income and not being able to get it again makes you (justifiably) uncomfortable. Also, though you pointed out a number of examples of businesses he has helped, that doesn’t mean that any of them would have been willing to hire and then pay him to do what he did. There is also the element of moving from the social favors realm to the pay for service realm, which affects both the social and business relationship (there is a lot of economic work on this.)
        He could end up liking the volunteer work, hating it, or even finding that it allows him to build a portfolio of business connections that would provide sufficient income to replace the DI and leave your family in a better position
        It sounds like the two of you communicate well and will come to the best answer together.

    5. E*

      Check with Social Security, there is a way he can try working for a few months and unless he works x months receiving more than $y amount, he won’t lose his benefits. They’re pretty well set up to encourage folks to try to go back to working but not lose benefits if it doesn’t work after a few months. My husband also is on SSDI and tried working for a buddy because of flexible hours around his painful days, but in the end it just didn’t work for him yet he didn’t lose SSDI.

    6. Ann O.*

      It’s hard to say without knowing what the lawyers may actually offer, but I think if $500-an-hour lawyers are interested in bringing him on, it sounds worth pursuing. Being a contractor can mean so many different things, but if he has a client and contract to start with that would exceed his SSID income, it’s very different than if he’s starting with a twinkle in his eye and a hope. The lawyers are presumably already familiar with his health issues, so it sounds like the least risky of risky things.

    7. ..Kat..*

      Well, a few questions. Realistically, how many hour per month does he think he can work (and will be given work) at $X per hour minus taxes? Is this more or less than his $1000 per month? How reliable will his ability to get work be?

      How far away from retirement is he? If he goes off his disability payments, what will his Social Security benefits be when he retires? How does this compare to his current benefits?

      It sounds like he wants to do meaningful work for pay right now. But, if he is shooting himself in the foot long term with respect to income, volunteering might be a better avenue.

      Personally, I am rather risk averse when it comes to long term income streams for my family. But, I recommend you run the numbers, because this is what you two will be living on.

      1. Camellia*

        “Realistically, how many hour per month does he think he can work (and will be given work) at $X per hour minus taxes?” Yup, we haven’t gotten this far yet, I will put this on my list.

        He is only 50 years old so he has a long way to go to SS retirement. And I vaguely remember something like, they pay based on your last 10 years of work??? I seriously doubt he can earn as much in the next 10 years than he earned in the last 10 years in which he was able to work. Will definitely find this out, it is so critical!

        And my situation is what is so scary; if I go blind before I reach retirement age (I am 62, my SS retirement age is 67), then we are in serious trouble.

        1. ..Kat..*

          I’m so sorry. This sounds scary. Would going blind qualify you for disability payments? Is there anything you can do ahead of time to modify your home to make your life easier after you lose your sight?

          Could he teach? I believe K-12 teachers have their own, separate from SS, retirement plan. (You would need to find out if paying into this plan would at all diminish his future SS payments.) I apologise – I sound as if I am giving you a big to do list. These are only suggestions to try to increase your options.

          Internet hugs if you want them.

  68. I'm A Little TeaPot*

    2nd week at the new job, and my manager asked yesterday if I’d taken my laptop home to test the vpn yet. I responded I was taking it home to test that day, and she said if it worked then I could work from home today. Given the weather, yay!

    Working from home today – all the training that is the only thing I have to do doesn’t work if vpn is turned on. I don’t get it. So I do a training, log into vpn and check for email, turn off vpn do another training… at least I’m warm.

  69. Dainty Lady*

    Let’s talk about professionalism. My previous boss was a model of professionalism — absolutely discreet, focused on work, one hundred percent appropriate at all times, followed every rule, completely confidential, made excellent decisions, apparently never made a mistake or put a foot wrong. And not super approachable. She smiled but never laughed. If she made a small joke, I wondered if there was a hidden message. Privately I thought of her as the Stepford Boss.

    I want to be professional…but I don’t want to be Stepford-like. So, sometimes I know I veer too far in the Messy Human direction.

    What are examples of boss behavior that you’ve seen that are professional but approachable and even perhaps slightly endearing?

    1. NaoNao*

      My boss plays music in her office at a low volume. She also comes around once a day and talks to each of us, just catching up, saying hi, and cracking jokes.
      She is pretty open about any appointments she has “taking my kid to the doctor” and so on.
      She expresses frustration with TPTB occasionally and is honest about “look, we all know this isn’t ideal, but let’s make it work.”
      She shows emotion within reason (excitement, frustration, sadness or disappointment).
      She gets excited and shows it over work successes.
      She uses IM to communicate rather than always a formal email.

    2. writelhd*

      My boss is amazing. He is direct, discreet, relentlessly positive, approachable but still has boundaries, fair, clear (well, most of the time), challenges his employees to their appropriate capabilities, he asks Socratic questions, he works his butt off, he takes time to get to know everyone, he thinks along a big, optimistic vision but puts real, concrete steps into place to get there and enlists the support of his management team to do so. He makes us feel inspired, challenged, directed, but not stifled.

      I suspect he is being Machiavellian too–in the sense that’s holding up a mirror to everyone and adapts himself to match the personality of the people he works with to make them really feel like he gets them, and feel they can relate to them. It’s small things, like playing up a particular hobby or interest he has when he knows someone shares that one, even changing his body language or manor to mirror the person he’s managing at the time. So yes, there is the right balance to be maintained of approachable and willing to listen, but still aloof enough to make it clear He’s The Boss. I see that as him sometimes sharing the decision making, and sometimes just making the calls himself, and explaining a little bit (but not too much) as to why.

      He holds a mirror up to me personally be being sort of a smart ass. Not in a mean way, but in a “lightly challenging an obviously note fully thought through thought, or an obviously ironic situation” way or a “fun wordplay” kind of way. I actually kind of thrive on that–if I say something dumb, I don’t mind someone calling me out on it in a way that cleverly reminds me of what I forgot or didn’t think about, because that’s what I do to myself. Somebody else, that would not be appropriate and he knows it. He laughs a lot, but not at people. With people, at situations.

    3. designbot*

      I used to have a boss that was overall incredibly professional–for example I worked with both him and his long-term partner on a project and flat out did not realize they were in a relationship until much later–but was clearly really personally invested in my growth. Like, he’d give me a heads up if a meeting was for someone extra important, or if someone was sensitive to certain types of interactions, and he’d tell me inside info on how to navigate our organization. He was never unprofessional, he didn’t disparage our company at all, he just approached everything like hey, every organization has its quirks and I’ll help you with what you need to navigate ours.

    4. Mints*

      My boss now is great, probably on the formal/less personable side but we chit chat enough that it doesn’t feel Stepfordsy. He’ll ask me about holiday plans or when I have PTO if I’m doing something fun. He’ll admit when something was hard to learn (technical stuff we work with) way back when he was new; this is important because he’s so experienced it can feel overwhelming that he knows everything. He’s smart, sure, but he’s also just old enough that it’s nice to see the path that can get me there too. Telling jokes (more like light hearted anecdotes) during blank time is also helpful

    5. Argh!*

      Oh. My. Gosh. I actually started reading The Stepford Wives in order to understand my boss better!

      One thing former grandboss did that I always appreciated, was stopping by in public areas that were remote from his office (but in the same building) and just saying hi and asking how things are. I doubt that he wanted to hear any complaints, but it was a good chance to talk about ideas that worked or how busy we had been to have a little bonding time. We only let our hair down a smidge but in our repressive environment it was really welcome. (Coincidentally, since he left, staff morale has been really low and we’ve had a lot of turnover)

    6. Anon anon anon*

      I’ve been thinking about the same thing. Professionalism is great when it means considering oneself a role model, treating other people with respect, adhering to standards of integrity and decency, etc.

      But there’s this gray area where it encroaches on other aspects of life and encourages people to hide anything potentially controversial about themselves, to be less colorful characters, so to speak. I think that can be a negative thing because it stamps out some diversity. But where do you draw the line?

      I think it’s a matter of being yourself, but a kind, honest, and respectable version of yourself. And you have to figure out how to do that. And it can take some time.

      I struggle with it personally. What can I do while still being professional? I’m starting to think it’s not even so much what I do but how I talk about what I’m doing. Controversial art projects? Ok if you use thoughtful language to explain what you’re doing. “My art deals with mature, sensitive subject matter and therefore I keep it separate from my role here.” You get the idea.

      Kind of a tangent, but, yeah, express yourself but find the professional way to do so.

  70. EddieSherbert*

    Oh my goodness, anyone else struggling to focus today?!

    My work had Mon/Tues off for Christmas and has NEXT Mon/Tues off for New Year’s – so you can only imagine how many people actually were in the office this (three day) week.

    1. designbot*

      yep. There’s only about 5 people in my office (out of over 100), plus two dogs. I’m doing the most mindless work I have in my to-do list.

  71. DayVee*

    Not sure how I feel about going back to work on Tuesday. I’ve been on “holidays” all week but actually working every day. We had a new “teapot architect” start a couple of months ago, and then she became involved in a new project I was on as a “teapot strategist.” We usually have a pretty collaborative shop, but things have been tense lately. We’re going into meetings and she is communicating what to me sound like decisions about project direction and scope though typically the strategy would direct her activities. The trouble is, she is senior to me, and her manager seems really pleased with her work so far. Whenever there has been disagreement, he seems to be coming down on us to fall into line (but has never heard our side of the story).

    My biggest concern if I am being honest is that I know our team was on the bubble during a recent restructuring and was barely saved. If her manager decides that our team is unnecessary because hers can do our job (as well as theirs) it would be easy to drop us and save a lot of money. So I’ve spent a few hours every day on my holidays trying to get way ahead on this project producing documentation that ultimately I don’t think she’ll pay attention to anyway.

    Sigh. I’ve started updating LinkedIn, but there are no other employers in my city that really have the kind of role that I do. The sad thing is I really like the work I do when I get to do it. But this is super frustrating.

  72. Gala apple*

    I’m thinking of applying for a promotion at my current job (it’ll be posted in January). However, I’m not sure how ethical it would be if I took it, since I’m also looking to move out of the area, leaving the job, in the next few months. Thoughts?

    1. AnotherAlison*

      I’m not sure it is an ethical issue. . .more like being a jerky coworker.

      I think it depends what the promotion is and how certain you are that you’ll move, and selfishly, if it would help you in your next job search. I would say if you’re fairly certain you will leave, do not apply if it is managing people in any way. It would suck for your staff. If it was an individual contributor role where you could come up to speed quickly and learn something new that might help you in the future, I wouldn’t be encouraging you to do it, but I wouldn’t get mad at you either. I actually see that fairly often. People seem to be unhappy in a current role. Transitioning to a promotion or lateral move takes too long, and they start looking elsewhere, then they get the internal opportunity and quit anyway.

    2. Argh!*

      Is this one of those places that won’t do references & will only verify your employment dates? If so, maybe not so bad….

      Is this in a profession where your boss & colleagues will be mingling with your future boss & colleagues at professional conferences? Eh…. don’t do that.

      Would you want to use your current boss as a reference? Then no, don’t even think of it!

  73. Kali*

    I’ve been rewatching The IT Crowd over Christmas and I’d love to see an analysis of that scenario. There’s not a problem with getting their work done…so are the other shenanigans okay?

      1. Kali*

        :D

        Sure. But, since they getting their work done, some leniency is okay, like decorating the basement how they like and maybe even working on other projects, like the phone vibration. Jen crosses a LOT of boundaries, like by telling them all about her period, having a girl’s night in with them, having them over to a dinner party and out to the theatre and so on. But then, even some of that stuff might be okay. She definitely should have put a stop to Richmond having sex in his little room though.

        2. Foreign Octopus*

          Douglas isn’t exactly a model of professional boundaries either. It makes me wonder what the other departments are like.

          1. Ramona Flowers*

            They’re full of people having affairs and not doing much work, according to Denholm…

            I highly recommend the IT Crowd Manual documentary on 40D.

  74. Me--Weeeeeeell f**k it*

    Heard back from that copy editor job, the one that called me initially.
    I didn’t get it.
    A receptionist job called, but “additional duties” is lots of spreadsheets. That seems to be a thing in real estate/property management offices. So no more apps there. Also, when you hear a range of $10-$15 an hour, you know they want someone for $10.

    Welp, off to my doctor’s office to drop off my poor-person medical program re-enrollment form. Back later. Happy Fecking New Year.

    1. caledonia*

      :( I’m hoping this is the last of the 2017 c*ap making way for great 2018 things.

      What feedback did the copy editor job give you?

      *internet hugs*

      1. Me--Weeeeeeell f**k it*

        Me too, dammit! >:(

        None. It was just a generic “While we were very impressed with your qualifications, we were faced with a difficult decision, finally selected another candidate who more closely matches what we are looking for in the position, we’ll keep your resume on file,” yadda yadda yadda.

        Yeah well maybe I dodged a bullet–they had Fox News playing on the tv in the waiting area, so perhaps I didn’t want to work there anyway. :P

    2. Mimmy*

      Aww Elizabeth, I had my fingers crossed for the copy editor job.

      Here’s hoping 2018 is a better year for you!

    3. AnonAndOn*

      Here’s to you having a better 2018. I’m sorry to hear that you didn’t get that copy editor job.

  75. KR*

    School question: I’m looking at getting my BA. I have an Associate of Science in Business Administration currently. I’m most likely looking for a BA in business finance or management. I heard a podcats on women’s colleges recently and was wondering if anyone knew of a women’s college that has a good online program.

    Also, what do people that aren’t from the New England regional area think of SNHU? It is an accredited private college in NH with a very robust online program. I know several people who have gone there and I know it’s good but I’m curious if others have negative feelings about the college since they advertise their online program on TV nationally a lot.

    Thanks in advance.

    1. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

      I’m from the Mid-Atlantic, and I’ve seen a lot of the SNHU ads. I can’t say I have a good sense of the quality of their programs, although I do know they’re not in the same category as U of Phoenix.

      1. KR*

        I’m not living there right now but I’m a New England native and resident, so I’m familiar with SNHU. I’m really looking for a school with a great online program so I can attend from afar. It doesn’t have to be NE based.

        1. Okay then*

          Ok! I was going to suggest CCSU if you were in CT, their business program is (from what I understand) well regarded. I don’t know how much of it is available online though. I have heard of SNHU but I have no idea how well they’re regarded, I just know them from commercials.

    3. Peanut*

      I’m in New England, so can’t speak to its reputation outside of the area, but I used to work in accreditation and SNHU’s online learning programs are seen as far more legit than U of Phoenix. The president of SNHU is very visible, speaks at conferences, and has done a lot to get his and SNHU’s name out there – yes, it is for marketing, but I will say that he is taken seriously by people who have worked in education their whole lives.

      That being said, definitely ask any program you’re interested in to give you stats on how many people enroll, complete the program, and find jobs in that field within a year (or whatever) of graduating.

  76. Reluctant Volunteer*

    Hello all,
    How do you stay motivated when you are on the volunteer board of a professional organization when you are finding the mission and work 1. less and less relevant to your day-to-day position; and 2. dealing with a number of other personal and professional competing priorities? Against my better judgment I just renewed my term for 2018 (after which I cannot run again for my current position, so it is a natural exit point), but I am definitely feeling some “senioritis” especially given some of the initiatives for the coming year. Quitting after just renewing would be seriously poor form. Anyone else been in this situation?

    1. Anon anon anon*

      Similar, but not the exact same thing. I had some leverage because they had promoted me without really asking if I wanted to be promoted. I had signed on for a two year volunteer job doing something I enjoyed. After a year, they promoted me to a new two year term doing a bigger job. They just called me at work, on my work phone, gave me the spiel, and didn’t really let me respond. “We’re promoting you, ok? Great. See you at the next meeting.” I was flattered, but it wasn’t something I necessarily would have said yes to, had I had more time to think about it.

      And the org wasn’t relevant to my career path. And there were tensions around that. Sort of like, “Oh, you think you’re too good for us?” “No, I’m just on a different career path.” “But we’re relevant!” Eventually, I wrote a resignation letter, and I think I also called the president and left a voicemail. It was ignored. She acted like I hadn’t quit and meanwhile used my affiliation with the org to get a co-worker of mine to speak at one of their events, which did some damage to my career because I was considering a transfer to his team and these people misled him about my background and area of specialty. He was high ranking so I couldn’t reach out to him directly to set the record straight.

      Anyway, I eventually sent a reply to my former email, and it came up either by email or in a meeting (not sure which happened first). They finally accepted my resignation and I left the whole field not long after. My experience with that org and similar ones had made it clear that it was all a bad fit.

      Long story and I’m not sure how relevant it is to you, but I don’t think you should feel guilty about resigning as long as you give a reasonable amount of notice and are respectful about it.

    2. Honor Harrington*

      Can you identify why you volunteered in the first place? If you can define that, and identify elements that have given you fun or satisfaction along the way, concentrating on those may help with the motivation.

      Burn out is no fun.

  77. writelhd*

    We needed to get our updated 401K contributions for 2018 to HR by yesterday. I replied to HR’s reminder email telling her the percent to deduct into my roth, which, was pretty high, because I intended to contribute the legal max next year, and I said as much to confirm my intentions.

    Several minutes later my office neighbor knocked on my door and gently revealed that I’d accidentally hit “reply all” instead of “reply.” So I had just emailed *everyone* my contribution percent and a comment that this meant I was aiming for the entire 18500 max, which basically meant that fast math could have told the entire company what my salary is.

    The IT manager was away, but I got him anyway and he graciously went into the server and deleted the email out of people’s inboxes, though there were only 15 out of 40 that were still unread by the time he could do it. As he was doing this, I sent an email to everyone that said “I am sorry, I have sent an email that meant to be personal to the all staff email instead. I am incredibly mortified by this”, as I felt I needed to address it. I talked to HR and apologize profusely, trying to address the weird situation this might be putting me and the company in by having revealed my salary inadvertently to EVERYONE, she told me I shouldn’t worry about it that much, most people don’t really know what the max 401k contribution thing means, except perhaps the directors, but that the manager’s (I’m a manager) salaries are on the P&L report they already get anyway. My boss, the CEO, (who knows my salary, of course), was out for the week, so he won’t have gotten the original email and will only see my apology email, when he comes back in. I suppose I’ll need to drop that bomb on him when he gets back, in the sake of transparency and honesty? I’m not entirely sure how, or if he’ll agree with HR’s sentiment that I did not really create a worry-able delicate situation. He’s quite fair and reasonable (and also not above poking slight, companionably fun at moves of utter stupidity like that either) but uhggg. It still just makes me sick.

    1. EddieSherbert*

      I’m sure HR is right and it’s not a big deal – and if I just go the second email (sorry sent personal stuff), I’d probably be curious about what you sent… but not expecting an explanation/apology (even if I was your boss).

      On the other hand, I would also be totally mortified and going WAY above and beyond to “fix” it if I did that :)

    2. Nacho*

      Personally I think income transparency is a good thing, and I’d like to know my manager’s if only to have a better idea if I should be aiming for her position or not. At the very least though, I agree with HR that it’s not a big deal.

      1. Mints*

        Yeah I wish more places were transparent about money, and while I get that it’s uncomfortable to know that in a social relationship, it’s super not a big deal for random coworkers to know (plus the actual number is hidden under some math, which most people will be too lazy to care about)

      2. Swimmergurl*

        I don’t see the downside of having others know your salary. If you’re paid about the market rate for your level of experience and responsibility, then no one is likely to be surprised by the number anyway.

    3. AnotherAlison*

      Ugh, I feel like you could be me. Sounds like something I would do, although the nice thing about working in a big company is that I can change my contribution online anytime. I actually had a sickening feeling that I was going to exceed $18,000 this year when I was looking at my pay stub info in mid-December. (I rechecked my math, and I was okay. I had gotten a mid-year raise in October, ran the math then, knew I was good, but it was getting really close at the end of the year and I thought maybe I had screwed up.)

      I do think generally most people would ignore and/or not understand, but I know my coworkers would have calculated it immediately. Similar to you, though, a lot of salary info is out there for certain levels/roles to see for cost reporting.

      Outlook gives you a warning now when you mention an attachment but don’t have one. Why oh why have they not added a warning to confirm you really want to reply all? At least add it as a feature you can turn on and off.

    4. Observer*

      I don’t know why you are treating this like a “bomb”. Sure it’s mortifying when you hit “reply all” when it should have been “reply”. But, you didn’t do anything bad. In general, employers may ABSOLUTELY not do anything to prevent you from (voluntarily) sharing your salary information. They can’t forbid, discourage or “subtly but unofficially discourage” the sharing of this information. And considering that your salary information is public information anyway, it’s really not something you CEO should get bent out of shape about. I don’t even know if I would bother to bring up with him – it’s not something that could cause him problems down the line.

  78. General Organa*

    Attorney help wanted, please! I’m clerking after a few years of experience as a litigation associate at a big firm and considering my next move. There are a couple of federal government job postings that look intriguing, but I’ve heard (probably here) that navigating the USA Jobs site is tricky and that there are certain things one should and shouldn’t include in an application. Does that apply to attorneys, and does anyone have any recommendations for books or sites that discuss the best way to frame an application? Also, if any lawyers have more general tips for transitioning into government work, I’d really appreciate it. Thanks!

    1. Snark*

      Former fed here! Yes, the hiring process applies to most attorneys, and yes, it is insanely difficult to navigate. I recommend Ten Steps to a Federal Job by Kathryn Troutman, because otherwise you will be sending resumes and applications into a black hole. She really walks you through the KSA process, building your federal resume (which is not the same as a resume you’d submit literally anywhere else), and how to handle the long and multistep process.

  79. Laura*

    Sick with the flu… wish I wouldn’t get dinged for it tho- contagious till Tuesday and will have to call out some shifts… but that’s what the points are for and that’s why I’m so focused on not being late- so I have em when I need em.

    Good news is I’ll be ready to go next week (doc says I’ll prolly still be tired after Tuesday so maybe giving up on this next week isn’t such a bad idea- don’t wanna catch something else because I’m too gung ho and wear myself down)

    I hate missing work though! Also glad it was nice enough to wait till after Christmas.

  80. Nacho*

    How does one escape the pit that is customer service jobs? I’ve only ever had CS jobs since college, so I feel like that’s really all of the skills and experience I have.

    Any suggestions on how to transition out of CS, or what kind of jobs I should try to apply for if I’ve only ever worked in call centers?

    1. Okay then*

      Mind you, this decision was informed by the fact that I wanted to go into non-profits and was so used to living in poverty from working retail for years that it wasn’t a huge adjustment for me to do this, but I quit and did an AmeriCorps service year with VISTA. It got me the connections I needed to “break into” nonprofits and I was able to speak candidly about what I thought the limitations were with my service year when I was asked about it afterwards while still saying how it benefited me/the community.

      1. GriefBacon*

        I second the AmeriCorps VISTA suggestion! I did a VISTA term last year as a way out of my CS/hospitality rut and it was just wonderful. I learned a lot about myself, picked up some really great skills, developed new interests, and made amazing connections. I’m still figuring out what direction to go in post-VISTA, but I have a lot of options, particularly in the non-profit sector.

        And VISTA now (as of 2015, I think) allows you to have a part-time job on the side, so you can always do evening/weekend CS work to help supplement the stipend. And, if you have any student loans or are interested in further schooling, you get nearly $6k in an education award when you’re done.

        1. Okay then*

          Yes that started in 2015 – you just are technically supposed to get permission from your on-site supervisor. Where did you serve?

    2. Tongue Cluckin' Grammarian*

      I don’t know about how to drop CS altogether, but what happened to me was going from retail to pathology. While still being Client Service in the beginning, I also began learning and taking on other roles and projects (that don’t require any degrees or certifications, btw, since I’ve no medical background at all). As time has gone by, I have less direct CS requirements (I’m the Lead for the CS group, but I handle specific calls, and troubleshooting, vs routine calls now). My plan when I move on from here is to find a job without the CS portion, now that I have background in areas that aren’t solely CS.

    3. Health Insurance Nerd*

      A good customer service background can transition really well into account management, which is still essentially customer service, but you get more specialized experience in relationship building because you typically have an assigned portfolio of clients.

    4. Anon anon anon*

      A lot of people transition via an office-based customer service role. Call centers are great because they tend to have a lot of openings and pretty minimal requirements, and some offer opportunities for advancement. But the ideal way is to land a customer support role in an office with all kinds of positions. Join the support team at Wakeen’s Teapots, respond to phone calls and emails, learn about the industry, network within the company, and then apply for an internal transfer.

    5. This Daydreamer*

      Try volunteering for a cause you really believe in. You can do some good, extend your network, and may even be offered a job where you volunteer. If nothing else, it will at least give you something to care about. Customer service really can be a soul killer, especially if you don’t have something else in your life.

  81. Tongue Cluckin' Grammarian*

    Our newest employee (just completed 90 days probation period before getting FT benefits) up and quit yesterday without warning, and in the weirdest way. She just taped the key to a note that said, basically, “Due to family issues, I’m quitting” and left it on the Director’s desk. No call, no text, no actual professional method of communication…

    She was doing great here, and it’s not an atmosphere where people are punished for speaking up on anything. This company is hugely on-board with helping employees in difficult times, and/or finding ways to help people thrive if they aren’t. So we’re totally blind-sided that she decided ghosting was the way to go about quitting.

    And now we’re back to finding someone for the position we hired her for…

    1. Matilda Jefferies*

      So weird, I hope she’s okay! Can you call your second choice person from the same candidate pool, and see if they’re still available?

      1. Tongue Cluckin' Grammarian*

        Yeah, that’ll be the next step. We keep all applications sent to us indefinitely.
        I think we’ll be posting the position again and see if we can get a new pool. The previous pool wasn’t the best, but I think that’s because the posting was basically just to the FB page and word-of-mouth. We’ve found better ways to spread the word since then (are currently in-process hiring for a completely different kind of position).

        I don’t know what happened with this employee, but it’s just baffling. Hopefully, whatever her family issues are, things work out.

        1. Anon anon anon*

          Yeah. I know the problem probably had nothing to do with your organization, but, to cover all bases, it might be good to look into her working conditions a bit. Keep an eye out for any signs that one of the people she was working with was part of the issue or anything else like that.

  82. The Sassy Social Worker*

    I have a couple questions:

    #1. How common is it for you to start a new position internally and lose all your accrued vacation time? I started a new position last April and I started a new position in the agency and I lost all my vacation time. I was disappointed having to come into work the day after Christmas.

    #2. My agency is scent free. We are not allowed to use any scented products like lotion or perfume or body wash. We cannot wipe our desks with scented wipes or use scented cleaning products. With this comes some consequences. The bathrooms often smell atrocious. There’s a terrible fecal scent that comes out of the bathroom. We know who the culprit and it happens nearly every single day. I’m not at liberty to say anything because she’s a supervisor, but the foul smell makes me want to vomit. Is there anything I could do to help minimize me feeling sick?

    1. MB*

      For #2, maybe instead of singling out the supervisor, ask management/whoever handles these things if there’s *anything* you can do for the bathroom scent. The last company I worked at was scent free because it was a small office and one of our coworkers had severe allergies, but for the bathroom we had poo-pourri and potpourri and a vent/fan in the bathroom as well. What I would say is something like because bathroom stuff is naturally stinky that it smells & you recognize the scent free nature but that it’s making you sick at the same time, and see if you can work with them to figure out a solution.

      1. Anon anon anon*

        Some things absorb scents. Coffee grounds and bowls of vinegar are two methods that I know of. Air purefiers would be another option. You can get rid of bad scents without masking them with other scents.

    2. H.C.*

      #1 Depending on the state, it may be illegal for you to just lose the vacation time (at least without paying you out for what’ve already accrued) – but otherwise, yes, highly unusual if you lose the time due to an internal transfer. Unless it’s specified by some policy (in which case, REALLY LOUSY policy that HR should reconsider), you should consider appealing to HR about getting your time reinstated or paid out.

    3. A Non E. Mouse*

      Is there anything I could do to help minimize me feeling sick?

      Could you get an air purifier for that room?

      It then theoretically wouldn’t create an odor, just help eliminate one.

    4. Arjay*

      If the rule is strictly about scents, you could try an unscented product like Oust to help eliminate the odor. It’s full of chemicals of course, but technically unscented.

    5. copy run start*

      #1. That blows. The only time I promoted internally everything transferred over for me, I didn’t even have to go through a probation period.

      #2. I used to have a desk in a public area that was often plagued by scents (cigarettes, people with hygiene issues, heavy perfume, etc.). I picked up a small desk fan a Target. It has a USB adapter for power, so it could run off my PC for optimal positioning. Whenever something stinky wafted by, I’d just point the fan so it blew the scent away. Made a huge difference in my quality of life.

      Also, is there a fan in the bathroom? Maybe it’s broken or doesn’t actually vent anywhere. Might be something facilities can look in to.

  83. Anon for this one*

    I’m wondering how much weight to give the comments of a colleague who has, unquestionably, been treated badly, but is also so negative about the job as a whole that it’s taking a toll on my ability to be cheerful and upbeat at my job.

    I work in higher ed at a small college. This colleague has clashed with the administration, been personally insulted by them, been urged to take vacation that could have put his job at risk, told that his accomplishments “don’t count,” and had multiple screw-ups with his paycheck. He believes (and it seems likely to me as well) that this is because he’s Jewish and the administration people he clashed with, although not all the people who ever held the role, are extremely Christian. He’s understandably upset with these people.

    However, one of the people involved in screwing him over has now retired, and the other made himself unpopular enough that he was demoted and will probably never hold any position of responsibility again, including ones that faculty members can be elected to. My colleague remains negative about their replacements and possible replacements, counts the days until retirement, wants to gossip about other people he dislikes, and also bashes our students. It’s gotten to the point that my perception of the place is starting to be seriously affected- especially since I’ve only been there a couple of years and he’s tenured- and I’m wondering, when I am happy with aspects of it, if I’m just being naive.

    Is there anything that would tell me if I’m being naive? Any way to get past some of the negative talk without stopping the conversations with my colleague entirely? When he’s not being negative, he’s funny as hell, he’s given me valuable advice, and he’s much more comfortable around me than around the majority of our other colleagues because I’m the only other one in our department who’s not Christian, so I don’t want to just abandon him.

    1. fposte*

      I have a friend in an unhappy marriage. Her husband is a jackass and always has been, so her unhappiness is utterly valid. And yet I can’t have a friendship built on her just bitching about her husband all the time, and I’ve had to say as much to her; I redirect her when we get into that mode. Can you be similarly candid with your colleague? You can agree that he’s gotten screwed, like him, and still want to make your day less negative about all the general stuff.

      Can you also let go of the “abandon” notion? I know it can feel that way, but you’re not Arctic explorers here; you’ve got a job to do, and that’s more important than making your co-worker feel supported in his unhappiness. If he thinks it’s really important for you to stay friends, he’ll modify his behavior when asked; if he refuses, he’s not that worried about retaining you, so there’s no reason why you should be.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      There was a similar AAM post on much the same thing a while back. In general, the advice was to acknowledge that the person has valid points, but then cut them off/shut it down politely.
      So…
      “I understand why you’re upset Fergus, and I’m sympathetic, but I really need to quit discussing this as it’s not the same situation for me and I have a lot of work to do.”
      “I understand that you’re unhappy Fergus, and I hope your situation improves. But I need to focus on my job right now and find dwelling on the negative is distracting.”
      “I’m sorry you’re unhappy Fergus, but there’s little I can do about it and I have work to do.”

      You know, that sort of thing.

    3. Argh!*

      I worked with a colleague who was a chronic complainer, undercut management authority, and was in general the opposite of a productive, helpful colleague. I simply told him that I was happy to be in my position, and I don’t want to let negative talk affect my day. He kept trying to draw me in, but I wouldn’t play along. I thought the problem was over, but then I had another problem — he started telling people that I’m not a “team player.” Eventually I found the colleagues who agreed that he’s a downer (vs. his cabal of admirers) so I had validation & friends.

      Meanwhile, he sucked up to the boss and when she had to cut the staff by 2/3 she laid off me & all his cabal and kept him on. He wound up quitting because he really didn’t like actual work, just self-aggrandizement through pontificating to a sycophantic audience. With them gone and my job duties to fulfill, he lost interest in the job. Also, the boss who didn’t see through him died shortly after that.

      So… lesson learned: negative nellies may indeed have some political power, or at least a severe personality disorder, so tread lightly!

    4. Stellaaaaa*

      It really depends on the individual root causes of what’s going on with your coworker. If your coworker was treated badly because of his religion, while you’re happy there and not experiencing poor treatment AND you’re not Jewish….that’s what privilege is. You are kind of saying, “I know that my colleague was telling the truth about being discriminated against, but I still like the bigoted people because they’ve never been bigoted toward ME.” This school has actually messed with his pay because he’s Jewish. Please don’t defend the administration. It doesn’t matter how nice they are to you. This is why it’s so hard to stand up to bigots. Doing the right thing is hard; that’s why so many people don’t do the right thing.

      I’m not going to tell you to leave your job over this, because that won’t help anything. However, I would urge you to recognize what privilege/discrimination look and feel like in real life, because you’re describing a desire for permission to look the other way when it comes to antisemitism, and no one here can grant you that.

    5. neverjaunty*

      I’d advise your colleague to talk to a lawyer and redirect his complaints j to something tangible.

    6. Anon anon anon*

      Redirect him. Change the subject. Suggest other outlets. “Have you considered writing a book about this?” And be honest about it. Say you empathize, but that hearing about it brings you down. Tell him you’re on his side and you have his back but that you don’t want to talk about it too much because you need to stay positive. You could also look for ways to cheer him up and make working there more fun. Bring in cookies, or games, or something. Fun distractions.

  84. GriefBacon*

    I applied for a “dream job” 2 months ago, at a religious non-profit that I’ve been involved with for over a decade. I’ve been involved on a variety of different levels, sometimes more intensely and sometimes kinda loosely, but always been a big supporter of their work: I’ve been a participant multiple times, I’ve supported their participants, I’ve helped with recruiting, I’ve traveled to attend their programming, I’ve donated, I was even offered a “young alum” board position several years ago (before their current leadership joined the org).

    The job that I applied for involved some very specific experience that I know none of the other candidates had — in the Venn diagram of an extremely small, close knit, niche field and experience with this religious non-profit, I am the only person in the overlap. It would have been a mutual perfect fit in terms of the actual position/work (I obviously can’t speak to office culture fit, but I’m clearly a good fit with the overall org). I didn’t get the job — but the only reason I know that is because they announced the new hire in their Dec newsletter. I not only wasn’t offered an interview, I never even got a rejection email or any acknowledgement of my application. Just complete silence.

    Until I got a fundraising letter in the mail this week. And I’m livid. I get that they have their alumni list to solicit from, and it wasn’t meant as a personal affront…but the mail came directly to the address I moved to 6 months ago. The only way I can think they would have gotten that address is from my resume. Which means they looked at my resume long enough to update my address in their donor system, but didn’t have the decency to reject me directly. And then asked me for money.

    Am I wrong to be ticked off? And would it be totally wrong to explain how tone deaf the fundraising letter/offensive the lack of communication about my candidacy was? It makes me not want to have anything to do with them anymore, after 12 years of involvement — but I feel like they should know why. Or am I just being petty?

    1. Cloud Nine Sandra*

      As someone who worked in fundraising and maintained a donor database, we would get address updates through a number of ways when people moved. I wouldn’t assume they got it from your resume at all. I can’t address the other parts, but I did want to reassure you about that.

      1. GriefBacon*

        Normally, I’d agree. But the only interaction I’ve had with them since I moved that involved my current address was my resume. My checks still have my old address, and all other interactions over the past year or so have happened over social media/email. I never did a change of address with the post office, as my roommates still live there and hand deliver anything that’s not junk mail.

        1. Cloud Nine Sandra*

          Ugh, nevermind then. Some fundraisers are really bad at keeping track of things like that. Like, as a hypothetical example, sending thank you notes for contributions that former employees gave before they were laid off and treated shabbily, and sending that thank you note 4 months later. Overworked people make mistakes and forget to flag things. Which is hurtful and sucky.

    3. AnotherAlison*

      It seems unlikely that the fundraising department would even know about your application (unless it was in fundraising). I understand that you assume they updated your address from your resume, but as Cloud Nine Sandra said, it is possible that they got it elsewhere. If you take that assumption out of the equation, there is no reason to be angry with the fundraisers, only the part of the organization that ignored your application. And honestly, I wouldn’t be angry with them. You have a lot of ties to the organization, but it sounds like you may not have reached out to anyone. I know the advice here is not to pester companies about your application, but when you know people personally on the inside, it isn’t unusual to check into it with them. The system could have lost your application. Or, they may have known this was a low pay role for the experience required. There are a lot of possibilities.

      I wouldn’t write off an organization I’ve been involved with for 10+ years based on one interaction with unknown details. (And this is coming from a person who is hot-tempered and quick to be offended by any misinterpreted potential slight!)

      1. GriefBacon*

        They have a staff of 7 or 8, two of whom work almost entirely offsite recruiting. The folks who do fundraising are the same people who would have been looking at my application.

    4. MissDisplaced*

      I know its hard, but you simply can’t take it personal. Companies hire (or don’t hire) people for any number of reasons. Even though you “know” you had a specific set of skills, they may have wanted someone with more experience, or someone NOT right out of college, or heck even someone’s brother’s cousin! You just never know what their criteria was.
      And I’d be wary of those “dream jobs,” most of which turn out to be nightmares! AAM has had many a story along those lines that turned out badly.
      Were they rude to not reply at all? Sure. But again, a LOT of companies don’t send rejection emails or correspondence of any kind to indicate you did or did not get a job you applied for, however qualified or involved with the company you think you are.
      Get used to it.
      Move on mentally as soon as you apply. I’ve job hunted a lot, and it simply wastes time & energy getting angry or offended over a company not acknowledging you.

      As to the fundraising part: well, that is what nonprofits DO to survive. So of course, they’re still going to solicit from their lists. Don’t be petty to say you refuse to donate over your job application (that is assuming you believe in the organization’s mission and goals). That is likely a different part of the org anyway.

      1. GriefBacon*

        I’m not really that upset about them not hiring me — bummed, sure, but not mad. They hired an internal candidate who’s several years younger than me, which, fair enough. It was a “dream job” (again, with quotes) in that I’ve wanted that job for over a decade and it would have required ideal travel (a huge plus for me), but it also would have meant a long commute and I can only assume a salary would have been small. I didn’t have any illusions about the job being perfect, and not getting it frees me up to pursue higher-paying positions with more career options, but it’s what I’ve wanted for my adult life nonetheless.

        And I’ve been ignored by plenty of jobs. Annoying, but no sweat. I’ve also worked in staffing/recruiting, so I get that things sometimes fall through the crack. But it’s an organization of less than 10 — and I know for a fact that the fundraisers are also the people who would have been looking at my application. And any way you look at it, it’s an extremely careless move to ignore a longtime supporter/member and then ask them for money.

    5. Anon anon anon*

      I think you do have a right to be ticked off. People have made a lot of good, logical points. But you know the organization and situation the best. And I think instincts also come into play with these types of things. It’s good to listen to that.

      Right now, you’re in the emotional phase of things. Take a moment to sort through that before contacting them. Writing about things can really help. Or talking to a friend who’s not involved and won’t have any contact with them.

      Obviously, if you do contact them, you’ll need to be level headed and professional. So take some time to sort out what’s fair to address. Based on what you wrote here, the main issue is that they didn’t contact you despite the fact that you have a close relationship and long history with them. You can’t really criticize their hiring decision because they’re free to hire anyone they want. But you can say something about the way they handled it versus how it should have been handled. “Long time volunteers and donors should get a rejection email at minimum,” is a reasonable thing to suggest.

      It would be ideal to do all of this in a way that gives them a chance to respond and doesn’t burn bridges. But you know the situation best, so use your best judgement. Whatever the outcome, I hope you can find some kind of resolution and move on to better things!

  85. Fall Intern*

    I hope I’m not too late! I’ve had twitter updates turned on my phone all week so I can ask a question in this thread and somehow I missed it….lol, anyways!

    So I’m graduating from college soon (exciting! terrifying!) and I’ve decided not to go to grad school right away and am applying to jobs. During the fall semester I got to do a professional development type program through my school where I did a full time internship & took classes (it’s supported through the school and is a really awesome program!) I absolutely LOVED the place I interned at, and from what I can tell, they loved me too! On my last day we went out to lunch, they gave me a gift card, told me I was the best intern they ever had (which was the best part of my day), offered to recommend me for jobs, etc.

    On the company’s website they have a job board for members of theirs (because they’re a member based org) to post job postings, etc, and they list their own postings too. Shortly after I left the company listed a posting of their own that I want to apply for. It’s an entry level job and while I don’t have the degree they want–say, a degree in writing instead of a degree in teapot management–but I have the experience *because* of my internship there, and a LOT of the duties sound like stuff I was already doing as an unpaid intern! So I’m really eager & excited to apply.

    My only concern is if I don’t get the position–which is a possibility, I can’t start until I graduate because they’re in another city, and they may like someone who can start sooner–I’m worried it may put me in an awkward spot when it comes to future references. I like these people a lot & they seem to like me, but I’m worried that if I get rejected for this position it leaves my potential to ask for references up in the air in the future. Am I crazy? How should I handle this? Any thoughts/opinions appreciated!

    1. fposte*

      It absolutely shouldn’t affect any future references or even concurrent references, if you find another interesting posting elsewhere at the same time. You can say “Hey, Fergus, thanks for offering to be a reference! I’m applying at Calm a Llama Down; if you’re still okay with being a reference, I’ll give them your contact info” and never even mention the application at their company.

      1. Fall Intern*

        Thanks! My thinking was that because they’re a small team (under 10 people) everyone would know I had applied & been rejected, but I think you’re right and I’m just going stir-crazy (or..trying to find a job before graduation crazy) haha, because they’re all very nice & reasonable people!

        1. fposte*

          This is absolutely part of the hiring game; be matter-of-fact about it and they will almost certainly be the same. Good luck in your search!

    2. AnotherAlison*

      I would actually reach out directly to the people who managed you during your internship to talk about the position, and let them know you plan to apply (if your conversation makes it clear that you should). It’s not likely that they are going to hand you the job without interviewing other candidates, or even interview you if your timeline doesn’t fit theirs, but I would find it weird to see your application come through without a personal heads up.

      If it was a big organization and you were in a different department than the hiring department, the prospective hiring manager is going to go talk to the people you worked with before. It will be better if your manager isn’t blindsided by that.

      Regardless of how it turns out, none of it should affect your references. We have people we worked with here who have left and unsuccessfully interviewed for different positions years later, and we still think highly of work they have done with us in the past and would recommend them.

      1. Fall Intern*

        Yes I agree, I actually plan on reaching out on Monday! I want to give them a heads up because this is a role I don’t know I would apply for at any other company but I would apply for here because I have the experience specific to this company, if that makes sense. I also recognize that they may not think I’m a great fit for th role which is why I want to reach out to see if they think I *should* apply, because I don’t want to waste anyone’s time, especially not theirs! Because t is a small company I didn’t actually have a direct supervisor (less than 10 people in an open floor office), but I adore the woman who typically handles hiring so I am going to email her on Monday to see what she thinks. I also have a question here—the role is for say, teapot sales, and I would be working under the sales manager who I know and have worked very closely with in the past (though I worked with everyone closely—impossible not to!), should I reach out to the sales manager, the person who handles hiring, or both?

        Just because I think I’m a good fit doesn’t mean they do, and I am trying to remain realistic (hence why I’m going to keep searching)! That being said though I’m definitely going to take your advice & follow my gut instinct to reach out to them :) I’ve just been waiting to do it because of the holidays & knowing they’re out of office. Thank you so much!

        2. AnotherAlison*

          I’ve only worked at large companies, so it would never make sense to reach out to the HR person handling the hiring because you would not have contact with them in your day-to-day work. In your case, I don’t think it would hurt to send one email and copy both of them. The sales manager would have insight into your fit for what he is looking for, but the hiring person would know to keep an eye out for your resume then.

          The great thing about your situation is that you are new to full-time work, so you get a little grace on these types of things anyway.

  86. Hilarity C.*

    With 30+ years in my industry, I am currently managing an aging team, ranging for their 40s to 60s. Team is mostly male, with a wide assortment of chronic ailments, and many of its members are unlikely to retire or quit in my lifetime. It is sometimes more than I can handle, and it’s spilling over to other areas of my previously well-managed life. I’d like to get better at it. Can you suggest some blogs, columns, books, etc. that could boost my skill set and confidence in the role?

    1. fposte*

      My first thought is Alison’s book and the archives here. But I’m also not clear what’s the “it” that you’d like to get better at. Keeping your work from spilling into private time? Handling ADA/FMLA issues more effectively? We might have more specific suggestions if we know what you’d find most useful.

      1. Hilarity C.*

        Belligerence is the thing I find most difficult, also “the rules don’t apply to me”, conspiracy theorists, sleeping in meetings, showing up late or not at all, ranting about worst-case scenarios that never played out, and misogyny so bad that closed-door coaching meetings are not currently feasible.

        1. Hilarity C.*

          I’d like to get better at managing this demographic. That’s the it. Also, I am sorry to not have stated it, but I am familiar with the askamanger site, Alison’t book, and the archives here. They have been helpful to a point. ADA/FMLA is not relevant where I am.

          1. Argh!*

            ADA/FMLA may not be relevant, but common courtesy is! They are old enough to know better!

            Performance management methods apply to all age groups. Discuss, document, dismiss!

          2. Anony*

            Do you have the power to put them on a PIP and eventually fire them if they do not shape up? Because the only way to combat a “the rules don’t apply to me” attitude is to show them that the rules do in fact apply.

            1. Hilarity C.*

              I would like to believe there are other tools at my disposal. I also see this as opportunity to develop some new skills. Under current circumstances, it is actually impossible to fire some of them for performance related matters.

        2. MissDisplaced*

          I take it these people must be “valuable” or have a very unique skill set to the company for this type of behavior to be tolerated?
          You threw me a bit with the “ailments” part.

          1. Hilarity C.*

            That is probably the root of it. There are actual ailments though, which would out me if I listed them here.

              1. MissDisplaced*

                I’m thinking something along the lines of “How to Manage Difficult People,” of which I’m sure there is a wealth of writing on.
                https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/communication-success/201309/ten-keys-handling-unreasonable-difficult-people
                http://www.masterclassmanagement.com/ManagementCourse-DealingWithDifficultEmployees.html

                I guess though the real question is how much power as their manager do you actually have?

                I would say that normally, a manager (along with help from HR) can issue warnings, PIP’s etc., and manage the difficult employee out if it’s necessary. But if you’re in a scenario where these people are considered “key” people you can’t fire (which I’ve seen with scientists and the like) this might prove difficult. Some of the things you’ve mentioned (lateness, sleeping, gossip) can be addressed fairly easy. But if you’re facing outright belligerence or hostility/harassment that’s a whole different thing. I don’t envy you if that’s the case. You really a) need the power to discipline and b) have someone higher have your back.

                1. Hilarity C.*

                  Thank you for this insight. Both (a) and (b) have been elusive to date. I’ll redirect my energy to get them in order as my next step.

            2. fposte*

              If what you’re saying is that you have no power to discipline or fire these people, then I think your tools are limited; it’s not so much a demographic issue as a situation where there’s no consequences for bad behavior, which will bring out the worst in a lot of people in every age group or situation.

              If that’s true, I think you can’t really expect to change them; your goal is to minimize the time you get sucked into folly. Belligerence gets shut down and people get pointed back to work or quitting if they’re not happy; if they won’t leave your office when asked, consider bringing in security. Misogyny gets a cool reprimand in the moment and a redirection to work. Not showing up means somebody else gets the credit for what got done. (If you have any power to reward good contributors, use it lavishly. If you have any power to hire new people, even if you can’t fire the others, do that too.)

              What you’re describing isn’t hugely different from some academic departments I know, and unfortunately people mostly wait for the problem children to retire or die and try to cultivate a group of actual doers amid them.

              1. Hilarity C.*

                So, yes, it runs in many ways like an academic shop and that is a fair analogy. I’m looking to change how I manage them for better outcomes. I am not seeing the best that this group has to offer. I also fear I have not yet seen their worst…. Still looking for resources for modern times that possibly could be shared and used to educate as I work through them myself. Thanks for the insight. Some of these things have been tried already to mixed reviews, I’m afraid to say.

        3. Jessica*

          If they won’t retire or quit, how about firing them? Sounds like any of those things would be firing offenses.

                1. fposte*

                  I got that. But you said it would be difficult to fire them, not impossible. So how difficult is difficult? Might be worth starting to take some of those steps.

        4. Frankie Bergstein*

          Maybe this says much more about me than you, but I am utterly shocked. I could never imagine treating a supervisor like this.

    2. Anon anon anon*

      This sounds challenging. And it sounds like negative consequences aren’t really at your disposal. So what about rewards for good behavior? Could you create something like positive PIPs for these people? Ie, “Cecil, if you increase your productivity by 10% and make it through the year without falling asleep in a meeting, you’ll be given a bonus/extra vacation time/fun project you wanted to work on/better office,” or whatever you can offer.

      But, yeah, reading up on this demographic could help. Maybe there are ways to improve communication with them and gain more respect from them. In addition to reading, could you ask for advice from friends and family members who are in that demographic? They might have some interesting insights.

  87. Btwixt & Between*

    I’m some months into a job and I really like my team. It is a very large global company, but my team is somewhat of an R&D type function that is outside of the core company business. I was hired to promote the team.

    This is all great, but the actual marketing department of the large company is Not-At-All-Helpful. My manager and the team know this, and it’s essentially why I was hired: to work on behalf of the team when corporate marketing, well, didn’t.

    But of course, I still have to work with this marketing department to get projects done. This department is slow to act despite their large numbers (think many meetings with many people to discuss the most simple of projects), but they still want to have total control and have all the projects run through their department. They also control all of the access to the tools, which effectively blocks me from completing the work myself (which I easily could do if I had access to things). In case you think I’m exaggerating, it has taken me over 4 weeks to simply get one social media post uploaded. The post was about attendance at a trade show, so it’s not like it contained anything that would have needed legal or regulatory review-approvals. By time it posted, the show was long over.

    It’s very frustrating. At my former job I did everything, and it was often at a fast and furious pace. I’m trying to take a step back from that, but this department’s controlling behavior really hinders the projects for my team and is making my job very difficult. Taking too long ultimately reflects poorly on me.

    I’ve worked at large companies before, so I guess I didn’t realize just how bad the situation was with this department, even though several people said that they were having similar issues. I thought the team just needed someone to drive, organize and be dedicated to helping them, but I see this was not fully the case. I’m seriously wondering if I can even make any impact here and worried that I may have made a huge mistake!

    Of course I’m documenting what’s happening to my manager and keeping her in the loop, but really how can one person stand against a whole large department when they’re stonewalling you like this? And if my manager didn’t get results before with this department, how would it make a difference now? Is there anyway to salvage this situation or am I just being used and played?

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      This sounds dreadful. I’m reminded of the company who wanted to have a discussion at their next board meeting before agreeing to give one 50-word vox pop in a newspaper supplement.

      Can you sit down with someone from this department and talk about ways of working together?

    2. Swimmergurl*

      I absolutely understand your frustration. Even though they have a large team, I bet there’s only a few people that actually do the work. Maybe you could try to identify and befriend those people, then softly ask them to get stuff done for you.

      Your other option is to be the squeaky wheel. I would over-communicate and send multiple emails to let people know something is coming and then pester when it doesn’t get done. If you’re professional about it, you’ll come across looking like you really care and are driven, especially to your boss and others in your department.

  88. Bibliovore*

    Still sick. Bronchitis morphed into a sinus infection. On the tail end. Super fatigued. Good news is that this all happened at the end of the semester so I have just stayed home. Trying not to be too anxious about catching up with things.

  89. AnonAndOn*

    Weekly unemployment support thread.

    Very few hits during my job searches this week due to the holidays. Someone offered to forward my resume to their network to see if it gets any bites. May get a long-term temp assignment that will start next week if things work out.

    1. nep*

      Hope that long-term temp job will work out, and the new network seeing your resume.
      Particularly after reading the comments above about loving a job that’s not necessarily the be all and end all or the most gratifying gig ever, I’m going to apply for a few jobs this weekend that are outside the industry I’ve been trying to get back into…I have been stuck for a long time and I think I’ve got to move on and explore elsewhere.
      All the best.

      1. AnonAndOn*

        Thanks, nep! And good luck to you. Your tactic sounds like a good way of thinking outside the box.

    3. AnonAndOn*

      I found out that I’d have to go on an interview for this temp job, so I’m hoping things go well!

  90. Not Otherkin*

    My coworker claims to be “Otherkin” and I just think she’s nuts.

    I had to read up on what “otherkin” means, and it’s people who think they are really animals/fictional characters/dragons/whatever. If it sounds like a sad delusion for a middle schooler, it probably was.

    “Barbie” who is in her early 20s, recently started working at our Teapot Firm in the summer. She is a “face” person, just like me…and we are often the first faces seen when one enters Teapot Firm. She started wearing cat ears around Halloween. Our boss let it go a few days (probably because its Halloween and our company tries to be “fun” by letting people dress up.) Then, after about a week, he emailed her and told her Halloween was over and she had to stop wearing the ears.

    She told me she was going to get him fired for insulting her religion and then told me she was “Otherkin.” I told her to grow up and do her job. Well, that didn’t go over so well because the next thing I know, HR calls me to ask if I’m being “insensitive” to someone’s religion. When I explained the story, HR guy kind of laughed and told me not to worry about it.

    Well, just before Christmas…Barbie started hissing and meowing at me at work. I told her to cut it out. Now I have to work this delusional cat-girl. Send chocolates or coffee. Because I’m about to start claiming I’m really a dragon in a human’s body and I eat cats.

        1. fposte*

          Though from an EEOC standpoint, it doesn’t have to be an organized religion; if she says it’s one and if it’s a sincerely held belief, it’s quite likely it could qualify. I’d still tell her to keep her ears in a drawer, though. Which sounds weird.

          1. Mints*

            What would the employer have to do, even if it is classified as a religion? She identifies as a cat, but the ears and hissing are inappropriate so does it really matter?

            1. fposte*

              Keeping in mind that IANAL and Catgirl is unlikely to do anything but sulk in her litter box–I think that there are jobs where the cat ears might be considered to be a reasonable accommodation, because, roughly speaking, they don’t hurt anybody. (Meowing and hissing I don’t see any traction for.) Whether the public nature of a receptionist position factors in here is beyond my lay knowledge, but it’s quite possible that it wouldn’t, since other religious symbols or garb would be accommodated.

              But this is where things get really advanced and need real lawyers and probably a state and maybe even wouldn’t be known without a court judgment. As I said below, I’d be willing to take the risk if I were an employer, because…well, I don’t think I really need a because.

          2. Ann O.*

            Otherkin isn’t a belief in a spiritual divine. It’s a belief that one is another species in a human body. I don’t see how that could be argued to be a sincerely held religious belief. (and if it it is, most places don’t employ cats so…)

            Also, it’s not like it’s that easy to make an EEOC claim and win. I have a real tough time believing someone who takes Otherkin behavior to the point of meowing and hissing at work is going to go follow through on an EEOC process.

        2. MeowMeowNow*

          Definitely not a religion. From what I’ve read, it’s more of a mental illness, so she may be a protected class there…

    4. Mints*

      Oh god, these are the people that give regular weirdos like me a bad rap. (Is regular weirdos an oxymoron? I’ve fostered cats and like cosplay, they don’t need to overlap)

    6. fposte*

      There are many interesting aspects of this, but here’s the one I’m stuck on: cats don’t need to wear costume cat ears–they come equipped with cat ears.

      1. Anono-me*

        For me it is the hissing.
        When cats hiss, to me it always sounds like they are cussing me out something awful in ‘Cat’.
        Surely cussing out your coworker(s) in any language is inappropriate and if someone is doing so regularly, it needs to be addressed by management and or HR.

        1. fposte*

          I like the way you think. Also, it is unlikely that the EEOC would require an employer to accommodate an employee by allowing them to hiss.

          1. Anon anon anon*

            I agree that the hissing could be a good place to start.

            But, really, she needs to have a conversation with her boss in which she requests a religious accommodation and is told what can and cannot be granted. It sounds like that hasn’t happened yet. But you have to deal with the unusual cat stuff and the uncertainty around it. Since it affects you, it would be fair to ask if a religious accommodation is in place and if so, what the ground rules are. “Boss, I understand that Kitty identifies as Other Kin and that it’s a religion. I’m not sure how to reply when she meows and hisses, and what to say when clients ask about the ears and feline vocalizations. I’ve asked her but didn’t get a clear response. Could you offer some guidance?”

            1. Ann O.*

              I would change your script to not include the “that it’s a religion.” That’s giving kitty co-worker’s claim an unearned legitimacy. Otherkin is not a religion, as in literally that is not what the term ‘otherkin’ means. If the co-worker wants to assert it as a religious belief, she should have to do the work of doing that herself.

              1. Anon anon anon*

                Yeah, but at work, it’s best to take the highest ground. If she’s said that it’s a religion, I would honor that. Let the boss decide how to handle it.

        2. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

          Yeah, hissing at your coworkers is not okay. I’d shrug off meowing as just “I want to annoy Not Otherkin,” but hissing is more…aggressive, I guess?

    7. Circus peanuts*

      Document and alert your manager. I can’t see this getting any better without others knowing what is going on because this is just too bizarre. Good luck.

      1. Swimmergurl*

        Maybe she’s just bored at work and messing with you. Regardless of her motive, I wouldn’t let the situation escalate. Maybe you could record her hissing and meowing on your phone, so you could have some strong evidence to show HR and your boss?

        1. fposte*

          I really would advise against recording your co-workers without their knowledge. It’s going to be illegal in many states, and it’s going to raise eyebrows nearly as much as hissing and meowing.

          The boss already knows she wears cat ears. If she doesn’t knock it off, share the info about the hissing and meowing.

    8. copy run start*

      Wait… are cats allowed in the building? Because if they’re not, and she’s a cat, then… she can’t be there….

    9. CatCat*

      Hissing and meowing is not okay. It’s disruptive. Good for telling her to cut it out.

      But her religion doesn’t sound any weirder than any other religion to me. (I mean, most strike me as weird and nutty… but also not my problem if not rammed down my throat at work.)

      1. CatCat*

        I mean, just plop in a mainstream religion and that might make it clearer what is worth addressing and what is not:

        My coworker claims to be “Christian” and I just think she’s nuts.

        I had to read up on what “christian” means, and it’s people who think they have souls saved by a god/resurrected son of a god/whatever. If it sounds like a sad delusion for a middle schooler, it probably was.

        “Barbie” who is in her early 20s, recently started working at our Teapot Firm in the summer. She is a “face” person, just like me…and we are often the first faces seen when one enters Teapot Firm. She started wearing a crucifix around Halloween. Our boss let it go a few days (probably because its Halloween and our company tries to be “fun” by letting people dress up.) Then, after about a week, he emailed her and told her Halloween was over and she had to stop wearing the crucifix.

        She told me she was going to get him fired for insulting her religion and then told me she was “Christian.” I told her to grow up and do her job. Well, that didn’t go over so well because the next thing I know, HR calls me to ask if I’m being “insensitive” to someone’s religion. When I explained the story, HR guy kind of laughed and told me not to worry about it.

        Well, just before Christmas…Barbie started telling me at work that I would burn in hell for all eternity. I told her to cut it out. Now I have to work this delusional Christ-girl. Send chocolates or coffee. Because I’m about to start claiming I’m really a dragon in a human’s body and I eat Christians.

    11. neverjaunty*

      Telling even banana crackers co-workers “grow up and do your job” is rarely going to end well.

      Why let her bait you? She thinks she’s a cat, that’s fine, you don’t need to discuss it or argue with her. I suspect the fun will go out of it for her when you treat it just like any other religious thing – not something that affects work or that you need to talk about.

    12. Yes I'm An Ass*

      I say leave a litterbox on her desk with a card that says “Meowy Christmas!”

      But then, I’m an ass.

      1. Me too*

        Or leave a litter box in the restroom. Don’t say anything. Don’t leave a note. Just leave it there.

    13. Shaun*

      Otherkin here, and while damage control might be out of reach on this one, it sounds like there’s probably more going on with this individual’s mental health. There’s the occasional one that takes things a little too far, and reality checks are necessary. Otherkinity can be part of a spirituality, but it’s not *A Religion.* I’m sorry you got one of the weird ones and hope she grows up quickly.

  91. Anon anon anon*

    You know what I need? A job. You know what I’m good at? Languages. Human languages and computer languages. I have some basic proficiency in four human languages and a few front end languages. I’m working on learning some programming languages too.

    You know what I really want? A job where I just show up and do the work. I don’t want to be the public face of anything. I don’t want pictures of me riding a zip line during a team building event on the company’s Instagram. I don’t want to write a blog about how great my job is and how awesome my employer is. I don’t even want my name and picture on the company’s official website. I just want to show up and do good work, get along with the people I work with, and befriend some of them if it happens naturally. And write about my job if I want to, but not as a requirement. And have some flexibility to work remotely in exchange for going above and beyond, staying on top of things, and doing really good work. I don’t mind responding to emails on weekends and staying late some days if it means I can also take some remote working vacations. I hope that’s a realistic thing to want these days. I guess I just need to find the right kind of company.

    Anyway, I hope I’ll find something soon. I’m in a big, growing city. I have skills that are in demand. I just need to connect the dots. And be positive. And find good places to network and meet people.

    1. nep*

      I hear you — can relate on so many of those aspects. Well said.
      Here’s hoping the dots will connect soon and you’ll land something that’s just right. Keep us posted, of course.

    2. Swimmergurl*

      Have you ever thought about working for yourself? You could be picky about your clients/projects, form relationships with your clients naturally, and work remotely as much as you wanted.

      1. Anon anon anon*

        Definitely. I’m going in that direction. However, right now, I need to pay off some bills, raise some capitol, and get health insurance. Whatever job I find will be a temporary thing.

    3. Anon anon anon*

      One more thing. Since it’s the open thread and we’re opening up about stuff.

      I’m pretty scarred from my last tech job. My boss and another manager on the team believed in old fashioned gender roles (they had not been responsible for hiring me). They were really mean about the fact that my skills were more technical than people oriented. I mean they called me names and things like that. They were also mean about my semi-visible yet not that obvious disability. And it was the kind of company where I didn’t think going to HR would help.

      I am really hoping I can find a company where I’ll just be a person who does work, and where they’ll be understanding about the disability stuff. It can be hard to tell what the deal really is until you’ve been at a new job for a while and are settled in. I don’t need accommodations unless it’s a team building day with physical activities; I just need people to understand that if I look a little off, it’s a physical thing that’s beyond my control, not a personality thing, and not fair game for on-going commentary (I’m pretty laid back about jokes and questions, just as long as people keep it friendly and within reason).

  92. Cassie the First*

    My friend works for the local tax collecting agency and half the staff were allowed to leave early last Friday (head start on Christmas) and half would be allowed to leave early today (head start on New Year’s). BUT, because of people trying to prepay their property taxes before the new year, they just found out that the employees who handle property taxes will have to work late tonight (overtime). Some managers want all the employees to stay until their regular quitting time, even those who have nothing to do with property taxes , but out of fairness to those who do have to work late. (Those who still want to leave early can use PTO and leave early). Some managers feel only employees in certain units should have to stay.

    So here’s the question – if it was your call, what would you do?

    1. Anony*

      That is a mess. Keeping people late (or not letting them leave early when you said that they could) won’t make it any better for those who have to work overtime. Let the people who were told that they could leave early and don’t have work that needs to be done today leave early. Anyone who works with property tax that had previously been told they could leave early should be allowed to leave early or come in late on Tuesday instead or next Friday.

    2. Swimmergurl*

      To be honest, management should’ve anticipated a potential surge in people paying their property taxes before the end of the year. This seems like the kind of customer/client behavior pattern that happens year after year. They should’ve either proactively communicated with customers/clients about your office closing for the holidays or made arrangements to have members of the property tax team available in the office despite the holiday hours.

      But since they’ve dug a hole for themselves, I would try to assign additional personnel to help the property tax team and try to minimize any required overtime. And if people did have to work overtime, I would try to smooth it over as much as possible by ordering dinner and/or providing comp time.

      1. fposte*

        It’s different this year because of the change in tax law–a lot of people won’t be able to deduct property taxes next year so want to prepay them this year. While it’s true that that’s been in the works for a few weeks, it didn’t actually go into force until pretty recently.

    3. CAA*

      I’d keep all the people who can actually process property tax payments, whether or not that is their current job. They all need to pitch in and get it done. It sucks that there’s a ton of work today, but it’s not the mangers’ fault that Congress passed a last minute tax bill that created this problem across the country.

      I’d let everyone else who is not able to contribute to reducing the backlog go at whatever time they were planning to leave.

      I would make sure that anyone who missed out on leaving early got equivalent comp time, and I’d also buy dinner for anyone who has to work late, even if I paid of my own pocket.

    5. Cassie the First*

      Sorry, I wasn’t clear in my original post – as @fposte stated, the problem arose because of the new tax bill and people trying to prepay before 12/31. For the normal deadlines (Dec 10th and April 10th?), the agency does hire additional help and the workers who normally process payments do mandatory overtime. As far as my friend knows, some managers told their staff they could leave early but to do so quietly – go through a back entrance (not where all the cashiers are), etc.

      Assuming half of the cashiers were originally going to leave early, I’d first ask for volunteers to stay late and then also tap into the group of people who have processed payments before or have been trained. And give comp time to compensate (in addition to the straight-overtime they’d get, because Christmas was a holiday so they wouldn’t get premium-OT). I don’t think they can let them out early before another holiday or other day because the agency head almost never allows early release.

      If I were an employee there who handles or could handle payments, it would be a minor inconvenience but I’d be understanding – sometimes stuff happens and that’s just how it is. There was a mad scramble all around the country, even though most people probably didn’t need to try to prepay. If I were an employee there who couldn’t assist, though, I’d be PO’d about having to stay for nothing other than “fairness”.

  93. Cristina in England*

    I saw this in a UK job ad today:
    “Any unsolicited CVs from agencies will be treated as a gift”

    Guessing they are referring to fees that agencies are trying to get by placing people. Regardless of the intention I think the wording is hilarious!

  94. Database Geek*

    Has anyone done any work for those “work from home” data entry websites? Are any of them legit? I was thinking of signing up for one while I continue to look for full time work. I know it wouldn’t be much money but maybe it would be “something” …

    1. Pollygrammer*

      I’m curious about this too. I’ve done amazon mechanical Turk, and I can make a few bucks a day (it just turns into an occasional amazon wishlist splurge) but there has to be something a little more effective out there

      1. ..Kat..*

        And if they want you to pay money up front for training, supplies, whatever, they are definitely not legit.

  95. Incantanto*

    Whats the best way to deal with people asking questions that are literally answered on the next slide when giving a presentation. Both my CEO and CFO interrupt really early in presentations to ask questions, and I can bever find a way to gracefully go “its on the next slide”

      1. Incantanto*

        I’m two years out of uni. They are the CEO and chieft scientific officer. Very very senior to me (tis a small company though)

    3. Anon anon anon*

      “Great question! That’s coming right up.” Don’t be afraid to be assertive with people who are far above you in rank. If you can do so while being polite and friendly, they’ll respect you for it.

    4. Argh!*

      “I’m glad you asked that!” *click*

      It’s a sign that your presentation is organized well, so take it as a compliment!

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        I’m not sure I agree. With respect, it might be worth revisiting how you order and structure things especially if you know to expect this.

    5. Champagne_Dreams*

      “Perfect segue, thank you!” *click*
      “You are really tracking with me, great question!” *click*

    6. Artemesia*

      I always tried to turn it into a compliment that suggested they were insightful or on top of things as this would be covered in a moment. Sort of ‘this is a great question and central to our goals here, but you are out ahead of us — can I get to that in a moment?’

  96. Research Person*

    I’m in my first Real Job and am three-quarters of a year in! So far, I generally like it. I like my team. My performance has been generally good, but there have been highs and lows. High: My manager has told me I’m a very good researcher. Low: I am realizing I suck at managing administrative tasks. Serious question: is it normal for research jobs to have a million administrative duties??? I suspect my role has more than is typical. We record everything on Excel spreadsheets (like contact lists), and keep track of accounting information for multiple projects. This is only the tip of the iceberg. On top of that, we actually have to write research reports (the main part of the job.) I have been called out a couple of times for forgetting to send an admin email (nothing urgent, but just necessary) because I was knee-deep in existing duties. I try to organize things on my calendar, but my schededule is always full, and it’s hard to accommodate last-minute requests. I end up taking my work home a lot.

    1. beanie beans*

      To be honest, this sounds pretty normal. I’m not in research, but it’s normal for a lot of interesting-sounding jobs to have a million administrative things associated with them.

    2. fposte*

      I am in research, and this sounds absolutely normal. Whether it’s too much to expect for that role will depend on the amounts of work, especially over the year, but the generous helping of admin is standard.

    3. Argh!*

      Writing is like 3% of my job, and my boss dings me on my performance evaluation for the occasional dropped punctuation mark or extra space between words. The last time I had to submit something I paid a friend I know to be picky to proof it for me, and I forgot the period at the end of a sentence I changed per my friend’s advice! I am a speed reader and I NEVER notice things like that!

      Those things are more measurable and obvious to the boss, so they are outsized in proportion compared to the main job duties, imho.

      Fortunately there are a lot of tools & advice out there for people like us. I have found it useful to turn off my email when I’m working on something like a spreadsheet or a document I have to share with colleagues (who understand that we are all human, unlike my boss!) Then I turn all the other stuff off when I work on email or something that I know will be nitpicked. I also print out my schedule from Outlook and make notes on it at the beginning of the day so that having Outlook turned off won’t make me forget a meeting or task. I turn off Outlook at about 30 minutes before I leave so I won’t misread (i.e. speed read) and miss something, then make a hasty & erroneous reply.

      There have been some times when the distractions around me are so bothersome that I set up “camp” on a laptop elsewhere at work so I can concentrate.

      1. Research Person*

        Thank you for the replies! This is truly enlightening for me (but probably laughable to seasoned people.) I’m also glad to know that I’m not the only person who struggles with this. I’ve always been a genuinely absentminded person (aka the complete opposite of Type A personalities) so this will be a challenge for me.

        1. TL -*

          Find a to-do list method that works for you! A simple Word doc or excel sheet can do, either every day, every week or every project (with dates.)

          Especially with research, it can be hard because you’re juggling big picture thinking with tiny little admin details. I find sitting down on Monday and taking 15-30 minutes to map out the week, plus 15 minutes a day to check/add to-dos is really helpful. (Though I was never happier then when our admin would be like, “oh, let me do that task.”)

  97. Too Old to Understand*

    My young employee found love with another employee under a different manager in less than a year after he first started his job. While the relationship doesn’t necessarily impact their work, they make no attempts at hiding their romance and act almost like high school students do when they’re in a relationship–minus actual smooching.

    Should I say anything about this, or their behavior is none of my business as long as they get their work done?

    1. CAA*

      Are they behaving in a way that’s inappropriate in the workplace while on company property? You said they’re like high school students, which to me, means that even if they’re not “smooching”, there’s probably touching, hand holding, walking with arms around each other; maybe too much deference to each other’s opinions to the exclusion of others; hanging out at each others’ desks and distracting their neighbors; favoritism; etc. If you see any of these things, then yes, you should have a conversation with the one who reports to you and point out the specific behaviors that should change.

    2. Anon anon anon*

      A lot of companies have policies on that sort of thing. If you’re not the owner, could you ask what the policy is? I think it would usually be determined in a company wide sort of way because if not, there’s a lot of room for things to be unfair. If you are the owner, which I’m guessing you’re not since there’s another manager who doesn’t report to you, it could be a good time to write a policy.

      If you’re not the owner and there’s no policy or guidance from the leadership, I’d start by talking to the other manager. Ideally, you want an outcome where both employees in this relationship have to follow the same rules. Personally, I don’t think anything that looks like more than a platonic friendship is appropriate for work. It alienates people and pushes people’s buttons. But I’ve seen companies take different stances on the whole thing.

  98. Bacon Pancakes*

    What process do you use when Documenting Questionable Things at work? Like I feel really weird writing down “Dear Diary, today Doofus told boss in a closed door session that I could hear the walls because the walls are thin and he was yelling that he thinks my job is pointless and worthless and that I don’t deserve to work here. Boss defended me and the work I do, but Doofus continued to berate me specifically and claimed that I was being given preferential treatment by others. I feel like he is creating a hostile work environment and this directly violates our bullying policy at work.” But also, it feels weird to email my boss a complaint so that I have a paper trail because…my boss was there. Being yelled at. About me.
    So how do you Document Questionable Things at work so that when you finally buck up enough to protest the hostile work environment you have proper documentation?

    1. Thlayli*

      Email is useful – if there are any relevant emails then copy them to a specific folder. If possible you can create emails to include e.g. “My understanding of our discussion this afternoon if that you want me to do x. Please let me know if I have misunderstood” but this is tricky coz theymight call you instead of replying.

      Other than that buy a notebook and write down everything that happens on specific dates.

      1. Thlayli*

        That’s for replied to Doofus, but also you could use it with your boss as follows;
        1 talk to your boss and tell her what you heard and ask her any questions you have (e.g. Is my job at risk). Then email her with something along the lines of “as discussed …”.

      2. Anon anon anon*

        Or send emails to yourself. Make it an on-going conversation with each email describing a different incident. That way you have irrefutable time stamps. The downside, of course, is that electronic communications aren’t always confidential. If that’s a concern, either use a non-work email account on a personal phone/computer/tablet or get a notebook and keep it hidden somewhere.

        1. Anono-me*

          You can also write actual letters and mail them to yourself with a stamp. Leave them unopened and the cancellation mark will establish the date.

    2. Honor Harrington*

      Excel is your friend. A spreadsheet can take a lot of emotion out of things.

      Column 1 – date
      column 2 – description of incident
      column 3 – people involved in incident
      column 4 – other witnesses of incident
      column 5 – impact of incident
      column 6 – any independent documentation of the incident (emails, docs, etc)

  99. Dzhymm*

    Hoping that people are still reading this… even though this is a “what-should-I-have-done” story from over 30 years ago:

    It was my senior year of college, and I was interviewing at the career center. I’d talked to several companies, including one major corporation that I *really* wanted to work for. It turned out that the interviewer was even someone I vaguely knew.

    So I had the interview, and got a letter back saying “Thank you for your interest, but considering candidates takes time”. I said to myself “Okay, take your time”, didn’t follow up, and never heard from them again. It would be another eight years before I’d get a chance to work for this company, by which time its best years were behind it and it was not nearly such a fun place to be.

    The question I have is: back when they said “These things take time”, should I have followed up more aggressively? Back then I kindof assumed that They Knew What They Were Doing, and that any attempt on my part to goose the process along would only annoy them and push my resume into the circular file. Was I mistaken?

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Yeah, no need for regrets. You did nothing wrong. That was a rejection letter, for sure. It should have been phrased more clearly as a rejection, but there’s no way they were thinking “Let’s say we need more time, and if Dzhymm gets back to us after a while, we’ll for sure offer the job.”

    3. Anon anon anon*

      Yeah, it sounds like a, “We’re probably rejecting you, but there’s a slight chance we’ll be in touch,” letter, which is not ideal. It would have been better if that line had been followed by, “We’ll be in touch if you’re chosen for a follow up interview. If you don’t hear from us, it means that you were not selected for this role, but thank you for applying and we wish you the best in your search!” or something like that.

  100. Ann O.*

    I am proud of myself because I hit my self-imposed milestone on New Job before leaving on my (pre-approved) vacation. I am sad that I don’t think anyone at New Job actually understands the significance of my milestone, and I also have many concerns about long-term viability of New Job (for directly related reasons.)

    OTOH, I am so glad to have left former manager. As I was leaving, I had many conversations with co-workers wherein I learned that my suspicions that she’s just flat out bad at managing are widely shared. She’s been the cause of multiple people leaving. I’m mystified by why she’s still in a manager role (although I’m not keeping up with the job, so maybe she won’t be much longer!). It’s mind boggling to me the way incompetence can be seen, can negatively effect a team for an extended period of time, and yet be left undealt with.

    1. Fortitude Jones*

      To your last point, I think a lot of people are conflict avoidant. If they can get away with not addressing problems, they will. The AVP who hired me into my last position at my now former company told me during my informal interview that his least favorite aspect of his job was the administrative part – he didn’t like dealing with personnel matters and preferred to still assist with the actual workload and claims issues if he could. That was a red flag that ultimately did end up hurting the division in the long run. His utter lack of desire to actually manage his management team led to four people under one supervisor (his friend) either transferring from our division or quitting the company altogether. He finally moved his friend to another position, but the damage had already been done by then.

  101. Honor Harrington*

    My employer is trying to do a massive cultural and organizational transformation. Think moving from hand-made pottery teapots created in a waterfall method with direct customer interaction to machine-made glass teapots created in an agile method with customers only talking to a machine.

    If everything goes well and according to today’s version of the plan, there will be massive layoffs in multiple job families. All individuals with my job would lose their job, according to half the plan. The other half the plan says that we would all have jobs, they would just be kinda different than what we do now. No one is sure what will really happen, as there is no unified vision or agreement on what we should become across management. There is no single leadership driving all the changes, and no overall collaboration. People are stressed and worried but trying to do a good job in the meantime. Rumors are constant.

    Any tips on how to survive or thrive in this sort of environment?

    1. Graciosa*

      To answer the question you actually asked, you thrive in this environment by embracing the change with great enthusiasm and developing new skills in agile method machine-made glass teapots. If you’ve seen the movie Hidden Figures, you want to be the woman who learned how to program the new computer.

      However, in an environment such as you describe, I would also be looking for a new job (assuming you need one). Typically in these scenarios, the machines are paid for with permanent reductions in force – which is already part of some plans at your employer. Believe that unless you are the only one who can program the new computer, you will be out of work with everyone else.

      Once that happens, the pool of teapot makers in the local market will skyrocket, and a lot of them will be desperate. Your best chance to find replacement employment is to land your new job before everyone else is on the market. Start searching now – not in a desultory “guess I’ll glance through the want ads this weekend” way but with the intensity of “no food or shelter if I don’t find a new job NOW.”

      Another good step would be to make sure you are in good financial shape (stop spending and start saving if you can’t manage comfortably while unemployed) and have what you need from the office (for example, personal photos stored on an office computer, your password for LinkedIn, etc.). Assume you will have no computer access and very limited time if/when the company lays you off.

      I am sorry to write this and don’t want to upset you, but preparation is the best protection.

      Good luck

  102. Blossy*

    Can anyone explain why curly hair is sometimes seen as unprofessional? I am job hunting and have seen anecdotes from curly-haired people about interviewers and managers informing them that curly hair is not “business professional,” or “distracting” and that they should straighten their hair for the next interview/high-profile work event/rest of their life.

    I have curly hair myself and decided to stop straightening it weeks before I was laid off. I do not want to go back to straightening it (even “just” for interviews) but I do not want to be seen as unprofessional. Thoughts?

    1. valc2323*

      disclaimer: I do not have curly hair.

      I’ve never heard this from any of my friends with curly hair, and I’ve never seen it be an issue anyplace I have worked. We have lots of natural and styled curls in our conservative, professional field.

      I would treat it as a red flag – anyone who complains about curliness or straightness of hair (I’ll leave out cut and color, since those sometimes could be an issue) is someone I don’t want to work for.

    2. ..Kat..*

      Can you pull it back into a chignon or french braid type of hairstyle?

      It sucks that you have to even think about this.

    3. Someone else*

      “Curly hair= not professional” is usually thinly veiled racism, as far as I’ve observed. If you don’t want to straighten your hair, don’t. You probably don’t want to work for someone who’d insist you do.

    4. WillowSunstar*

      I have never heard this ever. Perhaps it depends upon the industry one is in, but if you’re in a typical office job, it shouldn’t matter.

  103. Ruffingit*

    Friday was my last day at my job. I have a week off before starting a new job closer to home with more pay. YAY!

  104. WillowSunstar*

    Update: I have finally received confirmation from a former co-worker that the manager Cersei, the one who was reading my private messages over my shoulder (and yelling at myself and my other co-worker in front of everyone for little things constantly) got fired. Whatever she got fired for was apparently worse than her bullying behavior. I am not sad to see that Karma has finally come around.

    However, I did hear from my replacement that Monday is now trying to boss her around even though technically she is a higher level than him. I advised her to talk to new boss, especially since old boss never did a thing about him. Hopefully new boss won’t feel personally connected to Monday, so maybe he will be eventually let go. I never thought anything would come of Cersei, as the old managers seemed to be protecting her so much, and also Monday so much.

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