open thread – August 3-4, 2018

by Alison Green on August 3, 2018

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. anon today and tomorrow*

    I’m going on a two week vacation shortly. Would it be in bad taste if I gave my notice at work the week I came back from vacation?

    I thought this would be a great time since all my projects will be in good shape or finished by the time I go on vacation, so there won’t be much in production when I’m back to give my two weeks. I’m in the last stages of a job offer and will most likely hear whether or not I received the job while i’m on vacation. I’ve had people tell me it’s disrespectful to go on a long vacation and then quit, or that it causes the company issues, but the way I look at is that employers aren’t thinking about how those things when they lay people off.

    Thoughts?

    2. Kir Royale*

      There isn’t much choice because you don’t have the offer yet, so you can’t give notice before vacation.

      1. anon today and tomorrow*

        I will, obviously, I guess I was just speaking of the best case scenario so I could get advice on what to do?

    4. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      I don’t really have any advice, but just wanted to say, I totally agree with your last point regarding employers.

      1. anon today and tomorrow*

        Great! That makes me feel so much better and less stressed. I gave them my references today, and they’ll be contacting them next week, and said I’d most likely hear by the end of next week or early the following week.

        I just wanted some advice on how to handle it since I wanted to go into vacation free of guilt. Thank you!

        1. TCPA*

          I hope you get the job! I know you’ve already gotten your answer, but I just wanted to share that I went on a three week trip out of the country (so, no work contact at all) and gave my notice soon after I returned. No one said anything about it and it didn’t seem to be a problem! Hope you have a fantastic time on your trip :)

          1. Life is good*

            I did the same thing (three weeks out of the country, then gave notice the first week back) many years ago! It worked out just fine. Have a great trip!

      2. steppingout*

        I have a similar question. I received a job offer and my boss is on vacation. I want to put in my two weeks. I would have preferred to wait until he is back but is it okay to do email and put in my two weeks now?

        Follow up question– i have had a weeks long vacation planned for awhile now and it would be one of those two weeks. Is this okay? I don’t believe my company has a policy against this.

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          There was a letter recently about your first question and the response was yes, do it ASAP even if he’s on vacation. I believe Alison suggested that you verbally give notice to someone in the office (HR or grandboss) as well.

          As for the 2nd question, eh… that’s dicey. The whole point of the notice period is for you to wrap up your work and make sure you’re not leaving any loose ends for the person who succeeds you. So, I’d suggest giving three weeks notice since you’re going to be out for one.

          2. The Other Dawn*

            I agree about giving three weeks notice if possible. I’d be pretty annoyed if someone gave their notice and then expected to still take one of those weeks as vacation.

            1. Triumphant Fox*

              Often there is a policy against this at companies. Some companies want to have you take any remaining PTO as part of the two weeks, many others need you to be there for any transition. It should be in your employee handbook.

            2. Bobbin Ufgood*

              me too — the two weeks is for a reason — to wrap up projects and transition work. If there is a week of vacation in there, that wouldn’t count towards these activities

        2. AdAgencyChick*

          If you can, I’d resign to your boss’s boss, and ask her how she’d like to proceed with informing your boss.

          1. Fact & Fiction*

            I had to do this when I accepted my current position. My official immediate supervisor at that time was out on maternity leave, so I gave my resignation to her boss–who was actually the one who hired me and was previously my immediate supervisor. It worked out just fine. Of course, you have to know the dynamics of your company to decide whether you’d prefer to give your resignation to your own boss via email or to your boss’s boss in person.

    6. Penny pen pen*

      I’ve done this, it wasn’t ideal but sometimes the timing falls that way. I’m still in contact with old employer and don’t seem to have burned any more bridges than others who left around the same time as me, so I would do it again if I had to.

      1. anon today and tomorrow*

        I know my boss will be annoyed because I handle higher volumes than most of my team members, but we’ve had three people leave in the past month, so I think he’d be more annoyed that I went on vacation knowing this might happen than surprised that I’m leaving.

        1. JS*

          You probably had this vacation planned for months though so if he is reasonable he will be annoyed at the way the universe timed it all but cant fault you for going on vacation.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          It could be that he would find a reason, any reason, to be annoyed no matter how you handle this.

          “You deliberately bought a winning lottery ticket while you were on vacation KNOWING full well that if you won the Huge Jackpot, you would give notice. And you won the lottery. What is wrong with you?!”

      2. Happy Lurker*

        I have too. My immediate manager was disappointed in the moment, but ultimately got over it just fine. No one else in management gave a hoot.

    7. Camellia*

      Disrespectful? Eh, not sure about that. You could mention that the offer came through WHILE you were on vacation, but some will believe you and some will still think you already had the offer and just wanted to take your vacation days before you left. You can’t control what they choose to believe.

      And you need to do what works for you. You will still be giving them a notice, probably, and that’s all any company can really expect.

    8. OhGee*

      My partner did this just a few weeks ago, because his new employer wanted him to start as soon as possible, and he didn’t want to stay at his last workplace any longer than necessary. His boss wasn’t happy, but they’ve had three open positions on his team for months and have been dumping all of the most difficult work on my partner — they could have set themselves up to be less screwed when he eventually left, but they didn’t try. His final week was tough, because there was a huge emergency that only he had the skills to handle, but he handled it and left with a clear conscience and full of relief. Good luck/congratulations to you!

    9. Kix*

      I don’t believe it’s disrespectful at all. Have a great vacation and here’s hoping the job offer comes through!

    10. AdAgencyChick*

      If it’s in bad taste, I’ve been in bad taste three times in my career now! In fact, once I did it and my boss said “I was afraid you were coming in here to resign.”

      Because companies so often don’t allow taking PTO after you have given notice, I think it’s pretty common to wait until you come back from a vacation so you don’t lose that time.

      2. anon today and tomorrow*

        Because of our workload, the very end of summer and most of the fall is usually the only time I can take vacation. So I was stuck between not taking a vacation at all in 2018, starting a new job and getting paid out for my vacation time from my current job, or just taking my vacation before quitting.

        I’d have liked the money from the two weeks of vacation time, but I also didn’t want to start a new job and then not have had more than a day off for over a year. So this seemed like the best option all around.

    11. mkt*

      Provided you give full notice I don’t think it’s disrespectful.

      Whatever stress or additional juggling it may cause your manager / team / etc is really not your concern, it’s strictly business and should be seen as par for course.

      Enjoy your vacation!

    12. VeryVeryVeryAnon*

      I am in a similar spot – the job offer I was excited about in a previous open chat did come through. I expect final clearance on the background and reference checks to happen early next week, so I’ll be giving notice as soon as I get back from representing the company at a conference. I expect my boss to be annoyed, but he’ll have to deal.

    13. mark132*

      I wouldn’t do it because I wouldn’t want to give them a reason to contact me on my vacation. And I think this may cause this.

      1. anon today and tomorrow*

        The only people contacting me on my vacation would be the company offering me a new job. My current company has no reason to contact me on my vacation, especially if they have no idea I’m planning to quit when I return.

    14. seller of teapots*

      I had a manager who gave his notice the day he came back from his honeymoon. I was also on my honeymoon at the time (different honeymoon!) and it was surprising news to come back to because he was a great boss, but it didn’t seem to lessen anyone’s opinion of him.

    15. Database Developer Dude*

      Employers aren’t thinking about these things when they lay people off or terminate them. You’re fine. It’s not disrespectful.

      1. Anon for this comment*

        I got told my job was being eliminated a couple years ago, with no plans to transfer me into a new position. I got the news the day before I was leaving for vacation (which meant I got to spend my vacation fighting bouts of panic about how I was going to be out of a job in a few months.

    16. Been There, Done That*

      I don’t think it’s bad taste or disrespectful. Sometimes that’s the way it happens. And if you don’t have a firm offer before your vacay, you don’t need to violate your own privacy or tip your hand until you’re sure.

    17. Shuvon (Wakeen's sister)*

      It’s fine. I just did this myself — I applied for the new job and started interviewing in June, and the offer didn’t come through until I was on vacation in July. The job I’m about to leave has a policy of “once you resign, you may not take any sick or vacation days”. You are expected to give two week’s notice and work those two weeks to wrap up projects and transfer work. They won’t be hiring my replacement any time soon, so I’m focused on leaving instructions for three months from now when a new person might start.

      1. Barbara*

        How can they prevent staff to take sick days ? When you are really sick you can’t work.

    18. Traffic_Spiral*

      It seems convenient for the employer – they’ve just had a test-run in how to have people cover for your duties.

  2. NYC Nonprofit*

    Is anyone here involved in the criminal justice reform, non-profit, or social services industries want to give me career and/or grad school advice? Sorry in advance if I sound all over the place!

    I currently work for a criminal justice social services agency, mostly around Housing and Behavioral Health, and want to stay within criminal justice reform / work that serves those with CJ involvement. I’m in my late 20s, have a Bachelor’s in English, and have been working for the past few years in program operations, data management, and process improvement. However, I’ve also been given feedback that I would be good at a lot of other things – grant writing, advocacy, etc. I feel sort of like a “jack of all trades, master of none” and am really looking for direction on where I want to focus on for my next steps.

    The only thing I know I want is versatility – I’m looking for something that will give me the most ability to move from different areas in the sector. I’m not sure yet whether I want to stay with non-profits/CBOs, or work on the government side, or public health; I’m not sure whether I want to focus on direct service provision, administrative/executive work, or advocacy. — But ideally, I would like to have the versatility to be able to move between those areas if I see a niche or a gap I can fill.

    A bunch of degrees have been suggested to me (JD, MBA, MPH, MPA, MSW). JD has gotten the most votes by far from those around me for its versatility in the industry – essentially I am told everyone is always looking for someone who can understand law, especially contract law. But does anyone have any insight they’d like to lend? NOT going to grad school is also an option; just looking for any and all advice on how I should be looking at my career.

    1. Rulesfor*

      Social work is super flexible, more than people realize! I’m a social worker, and a lot of people in my program had a macro concentration, which was more focused on advocacy and program management and that type of things, rather than clinical work.

      1. strawberries and raspberries*

        Absolutely- and especially in New York, many of the better schools (Hunter, Columbia, etc.) have policy and organizational management tracks for people who are interested in the side that has more direct interaction with legislation. I also think that in many non-profits, having an LMSW is extremely sought after and very flexible, whether you decide you want to do direct service again or want to focus on the grant-writing and organizing part. It gives you a more nuanced and sophisticated understanding of how to approach program administration.

        1. College Career Counselor*

          Some MSW programs also have a policy/law component. This might be a more useful/faster/cheaper way of doing the grad degree that keeps you in the field than taking three years (and however much debt) for law school. If you can pay for law school (or your employer will, part-or full-time), then it could be worth it. Look carefully at the debt for ANY program that you are considering and bump that up against the salary increase you’re likely to make with the new credential and factor that in to your decision. I know a lot people who regretted the $100k private school social work degree (instead of the $40k state school version) because they wound up making $45k afterwards.

        2. Spero*

          This track is uncommon in some areas of the country which could be a disadvantage. In the South, I constantly have to clarify that I do not provide counseling or case management. I leave MSW out of my email signature and even chose to pursue certification in connection with another degree because the other macro practice social workers in my area advised me that LMSWs are even more strongly tracked to client facing roles (ex: someone whose work experience was exclusively in program planning and grant writing was hired for Grant writing and showed up first day to find the org transferred her to residential foster placement as a “better fit for her background”.)

    2. ZSD*

      I wonder if an MPP might be more useful. The advice I’ve gotten is that a JD teaches you to read laws, not legislation, so if you’re wanting to go into any kind of *advocacy* around criminal justice reform, the JD might not be for you.
      Of the degrees you’ve listed, I think the MBA might be the least useful, unless you specifically want to go into financial administration/HR in a CJ organization.

      1. PolicyWonk*

        I have an MPP and have friends doing this kind of work with an MPP. MPP’s (or MPAs) are also shorter than JDs and I think you can tailor them more.

    3. chickadee*

      As someone who went to law school and works in law schools, I would never suggest getting a JD unless you are a) planning to practice law or b) going for another career that REQUIRES the JD (not simply recommends). Law school is very expensive and doesn’t train you for anything that isn’t practicing the law (and not even that sometimes). If neither of the above points are true of you, I’d only go if you have a full ride scholarship or nearly so.

      There are law-adjacent masters’ programs (stuff like Master of Legal Studies, varions compliance programs, etc.) that might be a better choice if you don’t want to practice law but want some legal knowledge. Most of these tend to be aimed at working professionals, and there won’t be a lot of financial aid for them, so you’d have to find that investment worth it.

      1. PDXJael*

        This is absolutely the same advice I give. Do not go to law school if you do not want to practice law, that career expired long ago. Ironically, the loans from getting a JD (or any expensive grad degree) can price you out of jobs that you’d then have the skills for. And even though the legal job market is good right now, a lot can change in the 3+ years it takes to get a degree. Just ask someone entered law school in 2006 only to watch the field’s entry level jobs evaporate circa 2008. Signed, Post-Recession Class of 2009

      2. Emmie*

        As a lawyer, I give you the same advice. If you want to try these cases in court, go to law school if the debt is manageable. You can absolutely understand law and legislation by earning a paralegal certificate, which I recommend. They can be earned quite affordably at local community colleges. I actually wish I would have done that.

      3. Joielle*

        Yep, another lawyer here, and I agree. No need to spend all the money on law school unless you actually want to do something that requires bar admission. Although I will point out that there are careers that involve practicing law and do require bar admission, but don’t involve trying cases in court!

        I agree that “everyone is always looking for someone who can understand law,” but everyone is NOT interested in paying what they assume a lawyer wants to make. Even if you’re willing to work for a low salary, a JD on your resume will make you look overqualified and too expensive for some orgs.

      4. Pippa*

        Just to add my agreement here – don’t get a JD unless you intend to have a career practicing law. If the legal aspect of policy and advocacy is what’s most interesting to you, consider Chickadee’s suggestion about law-related MA programs (I’d include the general area now called “law and society”); it’s absolutely possible to study law and develop expertise in particular areas of law without a JD. If you do decide to get a JD, you might consider a joint JD/MA program so that you have advanced training in a particular subject area like social work or public health.

        Other commenters’ suggestions for MPP or MPA degrees are good, too – some MPA programs have specialisations in nonprofit management or similar subjects that might be a good fit for you.

        1. TheOtherLiz*

          FWIW I found my MPP to be relatively useless in my career in social justice advocacy. I had a full ride and still don’t believe it was ultimately worth my time.

          1. Pippa*

            Yeah, there seems to be considerable variation across programs, and I wouldn’t recommend them to everyone interested in policy issues (I’m an academic, but a social scientist not connected to an MPP or MPA program). Sorry yours didn’t turn out to be helpful!

    4. Meredith Brooks*

      I work at a large urban library — we work with local and state governments and also are a non-profit. There are lots of different avenues that someone like you could potentially be involved in. But, I wouldn’t actually go to grad school until you have a more solid idea about what kind of role you want to play. I know lots of folks who went back to school to get a JD, and while it’s not a bad idea to have that feather in your cap, it’s also an expensive feather and may not apply to where you want to go, which would mean you’d need to get an expensive second feather.

    5. Anonygrouse*

      (Background: I work in a human services/public health nonprofit and have an MPA.) IME, for most nonprofit career of the types you describe — whether operations/data management or more advocacy/policy — you need a master’s degree to be able to advance to most mid- to upper-level positions, but the distinction between MPA and MPH, for example, doesn’t matter a whole lot. (MSW with a policy/advocacy focus is probably similar, but I have less familiarity with those programs). I would like at specific program requirements, coursework, money, and timing/structure of programs rather than put a lot of weight on the specific credential.

      Practicing law is a very different type of work, and the financial burden of a JD can be significantly higher than a professional masters degree ( 3 yrs full time vs 2). To me it’s a degree for people who are interested in a career where a JD specifically is required, not one you get just to widen your pool of options. You can get experience with certain areas of law in some masters programs (my MPA program had its own contracts courses and cross-listed several courses from the law school). It is also much rarer to find JD programs you can do while continuing to work, if that’s a concern for you.

    6. BlueWolf*

      I know someone who works in criminal justice reform at a university (I’m not sure of what department exactly, I think maybe in a research center), and now she is basically getting her master’s paid for by the university since she works there. If you’re thinking of getting an advanced degree, you might want to look into getting a position at a university that would then pay part or all of your tuition.

      1. Anonygrouse*

        Yes, this too! University staff jobs also usually have good benefits/pay overall (compared to the rest of the nonprofit sector, at any rate), and in my experience can be pretty flexible with accommodating your class schedule, especially if your program is related to the job you have there. Try to research the specific tuition benefit as much as you can — is there waiting period before you can use it, do they make you commit to staying at the university X years after degree completion or you’re on the hook for part/all of the benefit you used, how much the benefit would be taxable income, etc.

      2. StudentAffairsProfessional*

        YES this is what I was going to suggest. I wish this is what I had done! I have an MSW and I rushed into grad school in 2007 and took out student loans without a full understanding of what it was like to live on a social worker’s salary and how crippling my student loan payments would be. I now work for a university and could have easily pursued a Master’s using our professional development benefit.

        One of my friends earned her MPP nearly for free by working at GWU and taking classes part time. She works in Gov’t Oversight now. A lot of students in my MSW program were part-time students working in traditional social work jobs and I think their jobs were paying for some/all of their degree. I do think MSW is a very flexible degree and I have been able to move around from nonprofits, social service agencies, and now Higher Ed with an MSW. I would try to find a job with an organization or University that will offer you either tuition reimbursement or professional development funds that will help you start a part-time degree program. Good luck!

      3. Yvette*

        Many universities do, however it can vary widely how long you have to work there to take advantage.

      4. NYC Nonprofit*

        This is something I will definitely look into, thank you! I initially had Yvette’s concern – that there must be restrictions around how long you have to work there to qualify for those benefits – but will definitely keep it in mind.

    7. Kix*

      If you’re interested in learning contract law, you can get a federal job writing contracts starting at a journeyman level. They train you from the ground up and promote quickly if you show aptitude. However, it sounds like you might be looking for more “boots on the ground” work, which would lead me to cattle dog you toward social work. There are so many social work tracks in graduate school now that I believe you’d find what you’re seeking. Don’t go to law school, there are already too many unemployed/underemployed JDs unless all you want to do is practice law.

    8. Faith*

      Since you’re in NYC, I’ll share my experience with getting my MPA at CUNY Baruch. I started my career in social services-related nonprofits, and after a few years realized I needed a master’s degree to be able to move up in my career and make a salary that I could live on :) An MPA made by far the most sense for me since at the time I thought I wanted to stay in nonprofits and eventually move up to manager/director-level positions. I went to Baruch because I planned to continue working full-time while studying part-time and the school is set up really well for that because the majority of students do the same thing – most classes are in the evening. Also because it was far cheaper than the other schools I looked at, NYU Wagner and the New School (Wagner didn’t give me any scholarship money; the New School gave me some but not enough).

      About a year through the program, I realized I really wanted to switch my career focus from nonprofit services work to policy/research, and I changed my concentration from Nonprofit Management to Policy Analysis and Evaluation (I was still taking the required classes and hadn’t gotten to electives yet, so this wasn’t a big deal). I ended up getting a job as a policy analyst in city government, which I couldn’t have gotten without the MPA.

      I do think the MPA is a really versatile degree; my classmates worked in a wide range of positions in nonprofits, government, and the private sector. If I decide I want to go back to nonprofits, having the MPA will help me even though I didn’t end up concentrating in Nonprofit Management. I also agree with another commenter that the MPA vs. MPH doesn’t matter that much – most of my current coworkers have MPAs but a couple have MPHs.

      1. NYC Nonprofit*

        Interesting! I’ve heard a wide range of mixed things about Baruch (though most people I’ve talked to went there for business). I’m glad it worked out well for you. I guess my curiosity would be – apart from the career, how do you feel now about your decision to switch? Do you feel that you’re making the kind of impact you wanted as a policy analyst vs. whatever you would’ve ended up in if you’d stayed focused on non-profit management?

        1. Faith*

          I’m definitely more removed now from the potential impact of my work than I was when I worked in nonprofits. It’s also more of a long-term than immediate impact, i.e. if my work were to be used to change policies, it wouldn’t happen right away and I wouldn’t be able to see it happening on the ground. I’m ok with that and the work is a better fit for me in other ways, but I totally understand that many people (it sounds like maybe including you?) need to be able to actually see the difference that their work is making.

    9. here we go*

      I at a NYC criminal justice reform nonprofit, although my projects are actually nationally focused. I have an MPA and I think it’s done me very well in my career, especially if you go to a school with a large professional network. Funnily enough, the people with JDs on our staff are often not high performers – I think the programs prepare you for a different type of work (unless you want to do legal work work for Legal Aid or something similar) and are SO expensive, you don’t really want to come out of them on a nonprofit salary. If you are positive that you are going to stay in the criminal justice field, a really helpful degree is a MA in Criminal Justice, particularly from the University of Cincinnati (I think they have an online option). In NYC, I don’t think we hear a lot about Masters in CJ because programs in this region are more focused on law enforcement jobs, but a UC degree is extremely well respected among practitioners across the country and would open a lot of doors.

      Funnily enough, sometimes I do think an MBA would have been an extremely helpful degree for me. For my role in particular, I’m helping criminal justice agencies adopt new practices (and let go of old, punitive ones) and more training in organizational development and change management would have been helpful (I got some in my MPA program, but it wasn’t my focus).

      Also, I do think MSWs are extremely valuable degrees, but sometimes people with them get pigeonholed into direct services work. If you knew you wanted to do work on behavioral health related to CJ populations, I might direct you that way, but if you want to leave all of your options open in terms of roles, I would go for a different degree.

      1. here we go*

        I work* at a NYC criminal justice nonprofit. haha, of course my first comment on here has an immediate typo.

      2. NYC Nonprofit*

        Thanks so much for your response! What you do sounds super interesting (helping to reform the practices of CJ agencies) – I’m really mostly familiar with the social service, behavioral health CJ agencies in NYC and had no idea there was something out there like what you’re describing. I’d love to hear more about it if you’re willing to share somehow!

        1. here we go*

          I would be super happy to chat with you offline, but not sure how to do it as i don’t want to post my email publicly. If you have a way, let me know!

          To get you started, though, here are some organizations that do similar work that you might be interested in:
          https://www.vera.org/
          https://csgjusticecenter.org/
          https://www.urban.org/policy-centers/justice-policy-center
          http://www.pewtrusts.org/en/projects/public-safety-performance-project
          http://www.crj.org/divisions/crime-justice-institute/

          I also started at an NYC-based CJ direct services organization and then ended up transitioning to national policy work. I think if you want to go into the policy side of things (include the process improvement/implementation of EBP/improving practices that you mention below) a grad degree may be a really good fit for you. I do think that at some point your opportunities for growth will get limited without one – most people at my org and doing this type of work generally have advanced degrees, including PhDs.

          1. NYC Nonprofit*

            If you’re still reading, thank you so much for these links!! I am familiar with Vera but not any of the others that you listed, so that is super useful.

            If you’d still be happy to chat offline, you can shoot me an e-mail at the link in my username; it’s an anon e-mail account I keep open for random things like this. Would love to hear more about your work if you get a chance!

            1. NYC Nonprofit*

              Sorry, looks like it didn’t take! Here is the e-mail address you can reach me at: cwgates4@gmail.com (Alison, feel free to delete the other glitchy comments if they’re cluttering things.)

        2. here we go*

          I tried to post this earlier, but it never showed up – not sure if it got eaten up or just delayed because it had links in it. Apologies if this becomes a double post!

          I’d be happy to chat with you offline, but I’m not sure how as I don’t want to post my email publicly. If you have a way, please let me know!

          In the meantime, here are some organizations you should checkout that do similar work (without links, this time):
          Vera Institute
          Council of State Governments Justice Center
          Urban Institute Justice Policy Center
          Pew Charitable Trusts Public Safety Performance Project
          Crime and Justice Institute (part of Community Resources for Justice)

          I also got my start in the field working for an NYC-based CJ direct services organization before I moved into more policy-focused work. Getting an advanced degree is a good way to go for you, especially if you’re interested in the type of work you listed below – process improvement/implementation of EBP/improving practices (QA/SQI). I’ve observed that at some point people without advanced degrees have limited opportunities for professional growth. Most of my coworkers have masters degrees or even PhDs, along with people I interact with at sister organizations.

      3. Yorick*

        I have a PhD in Criminal Justice and do research in a criminal justice agency. We have many different positions that might interest someone like you that don’t require a graduate degree. I think a lot of people think police agencies only have cops and corrections agencies only have COs, but that’s not the case. Look around at some non-profits and agencies to see what types of jobs they have and what experience the people in them have.

        I always tell people not to go into a graduate program with only a sort of vague career plan (unless you have money burning a hole in your pocket or your job will pay). I didn’t have a firm career plan when I went for an MA, and it worked out for me, but I’ve seen many people mess up their lives a little with student loans for degrees that didn’t help them find jobs or even teach them new, marketable skills.

        The University of Cincinnati online MS program: It’s a good option in some ways and not good in other ways. It’s true that it’s well respected, and you’ll learn more about the criminal justice system from experts. I would definitely recommend it for someone who needed a Masters to get a specific job or a raise/promotion. But in an online program you’ll only learn the basics on conducting research (and get no experience) and you certainly won’t get experience with writing grants or all that. If that’s the sort of thing you want to do, I’d suggest looking into Masters programs that are on-campus and have research assistantships for students.

        I agree with commenters above who recommend looking into research centers connected with a university. There are some great criminal justice departments around NYC (off the top of my head I’m thinking John Jay and Rutgers Newark).

    10. Tina*

      I agree with the other commenters about law school, but if that’s something you’re really considering I’d look into either a) do you think you can score high enough on the LSAT to get a full scholarship somewhere b) check out CUNY Law in LIC – they are openly social justice oriented and it’s much lower tuition

    11. Smitty*

      Agree with the others – I’m a 2012 JD of a great NYC law school and am terribly burdened by enormous law school loans. Even if you get a law school scholarship, they are all GPA-dependent (you have to maintain a certain GPA to keep your scholarship, but law school classes have a steep GPA curve so it can be very difficult to be a top performer). Often people who have law school scholarships end up taking out student loans.

      My own law school loans are over $3000 a month. I live in NYC and work in finance, not big law.

      Also, there are public service loan forgiveness programs and IBR (income-based repayment programs), but with the current administration, there is no guarantee these programs will remain in place by the time your loans are up for forgiveness.

    12. Cakezilla*

      I am a social worker working in reentry right now! I say definitely go for an MSW if you can. I studied both direct and community practice in grad school, and right now I do direct service and volunteer with an organization that does criminal justice reform policy work.

      The university I went to also started a dual MSW/JD program the year after I left, so it may be worth looking into to see if you have one of those nearby?

      Good luck on your journey!

    13. MPH*

      I have an MPH and work in data management/analysis at a university. I might be biased, but if you would pursue an MPH I would really recommend finding an one with a concentration in biostatistics. At least where I live it can be difficult to find a behavioral health job with decent pay if you don’t have an additional skill set like statistics or nursing.

    14. epi*

      So, I work in public health in cancer disparities. (I have an MS Epi.) I know tons of MPHs obviously, and from where I sit it is a versatile degree because so many social issues are related to population health. Depending on the program you can concentrate on something like epidemiology, biostatistics, or community health sciences; or you can have a more general degree that gets you some exposure to all those areas.

      Before doing this, I was really interested in medical and research ethics in general, and like you looked at paths where there were a lot of different graduate degrees floating around. I considered a JD.

      I really would not recommend getting a JD unless you want to practice law. This was the advice I got and I’m really glad I took it to heart. Public service legal jobs are competitive, because lots of people go into law hoping to do advocacy work, and there is loan forgiveness for an incredibly expensive degree. While there might be roles where it would help you, it’s rare in my experience to see JD required non-lawyer jobs. There are way cheaper ways to get a degree that would mean something in your field.

      First it sounds like you really need to determine that you need a degree at all. Is there anyone you consider a mentor in your field that you can talk to? It sounds like you need to understand the day to day work you could expect in different roles. Some things to think about could be, do you want direct contact with clients? To communicate with people outside the field? Do you need the satisfaction of knowing how you directly impacted someone, or do you like working on big picture projects and you’re OK with knowing they are important even if you may never meet someone who can say you caused their good outcome? Do you prefer inventing/discovering/inventing, or do you want to translate/implement/evaluate?

      If you can figure out in a general way what types of role would work for you, and start looking up the bios of people who do that, you will probably see a much smaller variety of degrees.

      1. NYC Nonprofit*

        Those are great questions, thank you. It gives me a lot to think about. Here at my agency, I definitely have mentors who have been able to advise me on what it would mean to be in a leadership role at a non-profit/community-based organization. But I’m pretty lacking in exposure to what a leadership position entails in another part of the sector (e.g. the government or advocacy side).

        My first thoughts are that, no, I don’t necessarily need to directly see the folks I’m impacting. However, it IS important to me to be able to quantify the impact of my work, if that makes sense. My hesitation with bigger picture projects isn’t really not being able to see who I’m serving – it’s more a fear of losing touch with the ground and getting too stuck in an ivory tower to truly understand the lived experience of those I’m trying to serve.

    15. NYC Nonprofit*

      Thank you everyone so far for the replies! Don’t have a ton of time to reply in detail yet, but I’ll just say quickly that I’m grateful for the reality check on JDs. I think in my little corner of the industry, we might be a little bit inundated with recovering attorneys and people with JDs – maybe to our detriment – so I was wondering if that was coloring the perception of those around me on what degree is most useful.

      One project I’ve halfway started is looking around at different organizations I could see myself ending up in, and looking at the backgrounds of their leadership – but it seems like there are so many different paths to get to a leadership position (which is a good thing!).

      I think part of my struggle, too, is that I’m not yet sure *what* area exactly I think is the most impactful use of my skills. If I stay on the service provider side, will I always feel at the mercy of the policies and resource constraints affecting me from above? If I move up the chain, will I lose touch with what really makes an impact on the ground? etc. I’m definitely interested in process improvement, optimization, and change management generally speaking, but really have no idea yet where I want to apply that, or what angle would be the best way to achieve reform in this country (or city).

      1. policygeek*

        Hello from non-profit land. Chiming in a little on the late side, but in case you are still following comments, I would emphasize what some other comments have noted: don’t get a JD unless you really want to be practicing law. I do have have colleagues with JDs, but as a few others have pointed out, they are not actually the strongest performers. They are trained to think in a certain way that doesn’t always allow them to successfully shift gears. I have seen many instances where a candidate having a JD is considered a detriment by a hiring committee.
        I would also suggest delaying grad school until you have a better sense of where/how you’d like to focus. I agree that in non-profit and related fields, you will likely need a graduate degree to advance, but you don’t want to make that kind of investment until you have a clearer sense of your direction.
        Finally, I would echo what many others have said: an MPP/MPA sounds like it may give you the range of skills and flexibility you are looking for. I have an MPA and do spend a lot of time analyzing laws, regulations, and related — so glad I did NOT go for the JD :-)
        Our most senior criminal justice person — very successful, very highly regarded both in our organization and nationally– has a PhD, but began with an MPA.
        Best of luck to you!

    16. iheartcoffee*

      My first M.A. was in Legal Studies which is a far cheaper alternative then getting a JD, and it’s what I suggest if you’re not interested in becoming a lawyer.

    17. Sarah G*

      I’ve worked social services for 14 years, in a wide variety of mostly direct service positions (including housing & behavioral health), but currently in quality assurance/program improvement/staff development. I worked for NPOs for a lot of that time, and have been working for county gov’t for the past several years, which has been great!
      1. I have a BA in English and Psych, but no grad degree, which sometimes it can be a little bit of a disadvantage in the hiring process but oftentimes not, because I have a ton of experience and skills. Do not go to grad school based on other people’s suggestions/votes — do your own information gathering, talk to people who have the jobs you’re interested in (including informational interviews), and find out about their education and career paths, and what they recommend in that regard.
      2) If you go to grad school, go because you know what you want to do with that degrees, and will be more qualified at it because of the degree. Don’t get a JD unless you want a career for which it’s a requirement or strong qualification. Same with the other degrees. I would not recommend an MSW unless you want to do clinical work. I know people who got an MSW despite not wanting to do clinical work, and regret all the time and money invested as they don’t use or need the MSW.
      3. Seek out workplaces where’s there’s room for growth, and orgs who invest in the professional development of its employees — training opportunities, etc.
      4. In many places, working for the gov’t is where it’s at. My gov’t job pays much more than NPOs pay, and is a great employer overall. Getting government jobs isn’t easy though — make sure you know the application process and read all the available information.
      5. Good luck!

      1. Sarah G*

        p.s. There may be other MSW jobs/careers besides clinical work, but my point is, don’t just go to grad school to get a degree unless you know what you want to do with that degree!

      2. Mimmy*

        Gonna echo you on the MSW. I got mine in 2007. While there was a period when I thought I wanted to do clinical work, I later realized that I was more interested in mezzo or macro-level work. Unfortunately, I was already on my last classes, so I didn’t change my track (I probably could have asked…).

        I’ve heard people say that the MSW is very broad, but the field seems very focused on development of clinical skills or nonprofit management. Now I’m having qualms about whether I’m back to square one, especially after reading this thread.

        Moral of the story (for everyone, not you specifically :) ) – If you are considering grad school, especially if you’re looking at specific degrees, make sure you ask questions!

        In terms of the MSW:

        – Ask about the coursework–including concentrations and specialization tracks–and field placements. Sure that information is often included on school websites and brochures, but I think you can get more by digging a little deeper. Even better, see if you can find current students or graduates and ask about their experiences. If you talk with graduates, find out about their career paths and whether their coursework was helpful

        – Look at the research interests of faculty – I believe this can offer some idea of whether faculty focus more on micro issues (e.g. clinical treatment modalities, mental health conditions, case management) or macro issues (e.g. social welfare policies, community building, nonprofit management).

        (This advice applies for anyone considering grad school, but I’m basing this from my knowledge of MSW programs.)

  3. CBH*

    SHORT STORY VERSION:
    I started an online networking site for a specific industry. I had wanted to get a few industry experts’ opinions on a few things. This was all voluntary. In exchange for said experts’ help, I offered they could to write a post that would be beneficial to them (for example an advertisement for their company). Three of these experts ghosted me when I had a delay in starting things up. Now that this networking site is up, running and exceeding expectations (without any opinions or help from them) suddenly these experts expect me to let them write this post that they personally benefit from. I feel a little frustrated that I did all the work and was scrambling when they ghosted me. How do I say too little too late?

    LOOOONG STORY DETAILED VERSION
    I don’t know if I am being petty or holding a grudge or taking this too personally. I started a local online networking group for people who work in a specific industry in a specific geographical area. It’s a laid back group where we discuss different aspects of the industry and in the same post, did anyone catch the game or see that movie. While I have some strict guidelines to keep things overall topic focused, anything goes as long as you are respectful. The group is free. While the group is small, it is growing beyond my expectations in the two months it has been running.

    I took about three months to set the group up before officially “going live” two months ago. I reached out family, friends, former and current coworkers, acquaintances and even some informational meetings in the industry to research areas of discussion so I would have a plan of action. I was surprised at how enthusiastic people were. I offered many a more prominent role in this group as a thank you for their help – some wanted to write posts about their companies, others wanted to post job listings, advertise company discounts – something that would benefit them directly that I normally would not allow as a sole topic of discussion.

    During this time I had a health issue where the recovery took longer than expected, two months instead of the typical two weeks! I ended up having to push out some timing deadlines to get things off the ground. I kept everyone informed of my situation and new timelines throughout my recovery. Most responded with well wishes, they were still on board and asked that I reach out to them when I was back in the game.

    After my recovery, I reached out to said people. Three of these contacts never got back to me; radio silence; no communication; no response to emails or phone calls. OK, I get that is all voluntary. Not all contacts work out as we hope. I moved on. I rushed to make alternative arrangements for the areas they were to help me in. Just an FYI, while these three experts made a commitment (in writing) to help me, no work was done yet beyond a 5 minute phone call or swapping a few ideas in one-line emails to organize everything.

    When I did go live, since I never heard from any of these three contacts, I did not use any ideas, emails or discussions we corresponded about in the group. In my personal opinion the contacts never gave me permission to use our joint ideas/ conversations in the group; so I didn’t. For me, this group is a professional hobby so I didn’t want to get into a he said she said situation.
    It seems that suddenly since this group is taking off, these contacts want to now join. No problem, the group is for anyone locally in the industry. However these contacts still want me to give them an influential role in the group.

    For some reason this is leaving me with a bad taste. I feel like they had their opportunity to help out. I’m happy to have them in the group and look forward to however they want to participate, but they seem to want more control over the group. I guess I’m a bit angry that I did all the work and doubled my efforts when they stopped communications. Now it seems like every correspondence/ communication to me has them speaking like they are in a larger role than that as a member of the group.

    I am trying to look at this from another angle… what if this networking group had been a startup company. Maybe the contact didn’t want to take the risk. Maybe they didn’t have the time. However no matter how I look at the situation, a simple communication would have made me feel a little more confident to continue working with them in a more leading role.

    How do I put a stop to this? How do I say you had a chance? Am I being petty and stubborn?

    1. WellRed*

      You’re being petty. No one owes you anything, particularly for free. Also, it was only 3 contacts out of how many that didn’t get back to you? That sounds like a pretty good rate of return to me.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        It sounds like they may have figured there was no point in writing the post since the site didn’t seem to be coming to fruition.

        Either they helped you before that, in which case you owe them their slot, or they could be helpful in the future and so the reasonable thing is to let them make the post.

      2. JS*

        I disagree. I think you have the wrong idea, it’s not that they ‘owe’ him help but they went back on their commitments to help. Also its not ‘for free’ the poster mentioned they would have an influential role and get to advertise things about their business in a growing networking space. This has the potential to be worth so much more in business opportunities than anything you would be compensated on to help get the site off the ground.

        I can see why CBH would be upset/annoyed and I agree with others think they should think about how keeping in their good graces good effect their future opportunities. That said I would be wary about including them in the future endeavors.

          1. Auntie Social*

            “Gee I wish you’d gotten back to me. The position of Teapot Advisor is filled for now, but you can keep contributing and we will keep you in mind. . . .”

    2. Artemesia*

      Are you better off having these industry experts ‘on your side’ and having good feelings about your efforts or as enemies? Fairness is really not the issue; your own professional interests should take priority, annoying as they were.

      1. CBH*

        One of the things I did contemplate is that it is just a post. You are right in looking at the big picture. I was frustrated with the situation but can see where your point of view is coming from.

        1. Artemesia*

          I thought I posted this remark but it isn’t here: another idea, is there anything these laggards could do for you NOW in exchange for these advertising posts. e.g. could they share your blog or whatever links in their own networks? Think about how to make use of these experts now. And no hint of disparagement. Swallowing this is part of being professional sometimes. I have a hard time with it too.

        2. Havarti*

          The part that concerns me more is about them apparently trying to take more control of the group. Are they looking for the same privileges as the ones who got the right to post jobs, discounts, etc. as a thank you for their support? Or are they trying to get more?

          2. CBH*

            However please see my post below about letting them post. In addition Artemesia gave me something to think about. Perhaps if I let them post (something to their benefit) they would be more willing to continue to help the group in other ways or in their original way too.

    3. Kir Royale*

      If you forget about what already happened for a moment, what would they bring to the group? Would their expert opinions and experience be valuable to the group? Or can they cause trouble by setting up a competing group? Saying you had a chance, too late, would not be best course of action. It might be a good idea to set specific criteria that would earn participants the right to place an ad for their company, so then you can say to them, that X contributions will earn them Y advertising space.

    4. CBH*

      Hey everyone, I appreciate all of your opinions. I think I am taking this too personally and too seriously. When rereading my post I feel like I was taking professional and personal frustration in setting up this networking group out on a few people. I plan on letting them do a post to benefit them in whatever way they choose. At one point, these contacts did agree to help me. If anything I owe them for taking the time to listen to me. It’s just the timing that didn’t work out. I would be burning bridges by being so stubborn. The few comments posted thus far made me see that. I wanted this group to have a business happy hour feel to it, so I should be grateful for all who participate in the group. Thank you again for all your insights.

    5. MagicToilet*

      I am petty and hold grudges. But I would take all the help I can get by giving everyone a second chance. If they burn you again: gone.

    6. MuttIsMyCopilot*

      Is there anything they could still help you with now? Maybe you could respond with something like “The main purpose of the group is conversational/networking, so [advertising/company profile/promotional] posts are limited to being a perk for participants who help me [moderate/develop content/research]. If you’re interested in investing that kind of time I’m looking for someone to [specific task request], but I understand if you’re too busy. We’d still love to have you in the group!”

      1. CBH*

        I posted above. These posts made me see I am taking things waaay too personal. However I am going to try to “renegotiate” their input. I’ll let them post (afterall they did speak with me originally and I did have to change the deadline) but can they help me now for a future discussion topic.

    7. LilySparrow*

      I’m not really clear on what help they were supposed to give you, or whether this was handled as a transactional exchange, or as a more nebulous goodwill exercise. You seem to place value on certain tasks or material, while they probably place value on the time they spent talking to you, whether you used the results of those discussions or not.

      If it was explicitly set up as a transaction with fairly specific deliverables, then we’re talking about sponsored posts that haven’t been paid for (even if the “pay” was in time or favors).

      If the deliverables were ideas or language that you already have and can still use, you could tell them something like, “Since I didn’t hear from you in the startup phase, I refrained from using your contribution. If you’d like to take up the sponsorship option, I will use that material now. Agreed?”

      If they were supposed to perform some task or you can’t use the material anymore, you could tell them, “I’m so glad you still want to be involved! Since I didn’t hear from you in the startup phase, I had to make other arrangements to cover the contributions you offered. I’d be happy to give you space – let’s talk about how you can contribute at this point.”

      However, if they didn’t agree to anything specific up front, they probably feel that they already “paid” for the posts by taking time to have those discussions with you. And if that’s the case, I agree with others that future goodwill is a good investment.

      1. CBH*

        I like your wording on asking for help. I think I will include that when corresponding with them.

        The industry I was setting up the group for has a lot of sub industries, some of which I have never worked in. From the ghosted contacts, I was basically wanted to get a better overview of the sub industry and to brainstorm a few topics (even if general) that could be discussed in the group. I was looking to do this over a cup of coffee.

        I was very clear that in exchange for helping me they could do a personal post. Unfortunately, I did not specify the definition of help.

        I can see where my opinion in the comments above is flip flopping/ backpeddling a bit. I just don’t want to burn any bridges personally, professionally or networking wise. I liked your suggestion in wording things in that it reminds them that they agreed to help in some capacity in exchange for their personal post. However as others have pointed out technically they did help me. I will allow them to post but hopefully can get them to meet up to further discuss or if they would like to do something such as monitor a discussion.

    8. Tina*

      I’m a little confused. If you’re running this site, and it’s successful now, and they want to advertise their businesses on your site, why wouldn’t you be charging them? I have no idea what the industry is or how you are monetizing the site but shouldn’t you have a policy on how you handle companies wanting to advertise? This by the way has nothing to do with them ghosting you – clearly you should have some uniform response or ask to companies that want to advertise on your site now that it’s up and running and you don’t need the “exposure.”

      1. CBH*

        it’s a small site – about 150 members. As a site rule I tell people this is just for discussions. There are opportunities to post personal posts throughout the year (such as a advertisement for your company) but it’s not a daily thing. I agree that this is growing faster than I thought and I do need to set some sort of rules for advertising.

        1. Trisha*

          Another option would be to say something along the lines of, “I welcome your contributions to the site. To manage the posts and ensure that each is read and given attention, I am moderating the frequency with which these types of advertisements are posted. Consideration is being given first to those organizations (or people) who provided extensive assistance in the launch of the site. If you provide me with your post by XX date, I’ll be happy to include it.”

          This allows you both include their work (no bridges burned) but articulate why you aren’t posting their stuff right away. Make sure that those people who did help you out are recognized first; minor contributors (or at least people who you did speak with) should be thanked/rewarded secondary. While you don’t want to burn your bridge with these people, rewarding those who did help you should be a priority.

  4. Detective Amy Santiago*

    Been at my new job for 3 months now. Supervisor told me yesterday that I’m doing great and we talked about some potential other projects I can take on since my current workload is fairly light.

    Thank you so much to Alison and all the commenters here for the wonderful advice and support this past year during my search!

  5. MagicToilet*

    Can we talk about US labor laws, y’all?
    Just kidding. For the first time, I have a sit/stand desk! For those of you that have one: how much time do you stand vs sit during a long day of point, click, and typing?

    1. Corky's Wife Bonnie*

      It depends actually. I have a lower back issue, so I stand when it starts to hurt, and I sit when I start to get stiff. I’d say I probably stand a bit more than I sit, about 60/40. I love it though, my back improved immensely since I’ve been using the desk.

    2. Anon!*

      I recently got one as well- I’ve had it for a couple months and love it! At first I downloaded a widget to remind me to stand for 20 minutes (and then sit for 40). That grew old pretty quickly but it helped me ease into things. Definitely noticed more fatigue (esp in my back) when working out those first few weeks. Now, I usually stand for anywhere from 30 min to over an hour at a time and then sit as long as I feel like in between (usually 15-30 min). Some days if I’m tired or not feeling well I stand substantially less. I haven’t invested in an anti-fatigue mat but will put one foot on my footrest or sometimes put my foot on the seat of my chair behind me when I’m standing. Hope you love your desk too!

    3. seahorsesarecute*

      I’ve had one for about 5 months now. I asked for it because of some low back pain that would get worse just from sitting. I’ve found that if I stand about an hour in the morning and an hour again in the afternoon, I go home with no low back pain. I’ve also found that there are some tasks my brain can’t seem to do standing, so I just have to save those for sitting times.

      1. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

        Im in a similar boat to the point where I head to the gym right after work to get the kinks out and stretch before going home. We just got standing desk options at work (we hot desk), but I was concerned that standing would just cause different back pain. I really like this idea of breaking up the standing throughout the day – will give it a try!

    4. Mlergh*

      I have one! But I’m very bad at actually using it. Piggybacking off of OP, does anyone has any recommendations for building the standing-at-your-standing-desk habit? I’ve tried alarms and notifications on my computer, but I always tell myself I’ll do it in five minutes because doing it now will “break my stride” (total cop out, I know).

      1. Nessun*

        I’m in the exact same boat! Don’t use my sit/stand desk nearly as much as I know I could/”should”. I’d love to hear people’s suggestions for building the habit.

      2. fish feud*

        I find that if I start the day standing, I stand for more of the day, or sometimes the whole day. If my desk is raised when I walk in the morning, I won’t bother lowering it, and barely even think about it until maybe 3pm when I start to get tired.

          1. Research assistant*

            Same here – every day at COB I raise it so in the morning i stand automatically

      3. Tmarie*

        I’m looking for this type of reminder information as well. I have a Varidesk, and rarely use it, but need to!

      4. Anon!*

        I take all calls standing- if you have longer phone calls/conference calls throughout the week, this could be a good way to get started! I also leave (or put) it in standing position at the end of the day so I start off my day standing. I sit for lunch and then raise it after. I also used to remind myself to raise it if I left my office to get water or something like that- then I’d just automatically stand when I came back (for a bit, at least!).

      5. CW*

        I usually start my day sitting (because morning, coffee, waking up, etc) and work through my emails, top priorities, etc. Once I’m through my coffee, and I’ve returned the mug to the kitchen or gotten up to wash it, I come back and raise my desk to stand until lunch. Since that’s a natural break for me anyways, it’s easy to just raise the desk back. Usually this means I am sitting for about an hour in the mornings before I start standing.

        Post lunch, I’ll start off standing – I typically feel more alert when I’m standing so the post lunch itis doesn’t start to come in. Depending on how I’m feeling, I usually stand for the rest of the day, or I stand until the mid afternoon and end the day sitting. This usually works out to something like 75/25 or 60/40 standing, depending on how I’m feeling that day.
        I work from home full time and have a Fully Jarvis, with a fatigue mat and standard chair for sitting.
        Also side note, does anyone else stand like a flamingo when they’re working? I tuck one foot up on my knee and bang out emails. It oddly feels very comfortable.

      6. Teapot Tester*

        This is me too. I tend to use it after lunch, usually when I notice my butt getting numb from sitting too long.

        Our sit/stand desks kind of suck though, if you put any pressure on it, it lowers, and apparently I lean a lot when using the mouse. When I notice I’m constantly raising it up again, I realize it’s time to sit.

        1. CW*

          Ugh that’s awful. Usually there’s a locking mechanism so that you can lock it in place but if you don’t have that I can see it really being a safety hazard!
          Do you have any choice in the type of desks you guys get?

      8. SavannahMiranda*

        I find using my desk in sitting mode more difficult now, which reminds me to stand.

        If I have to crank on something, really bang out some draft language and document assembly, it’s now easier to type while standing. So I pop my desk into standing mode.

        When sitting my keyboard is now in a semi-awkward raised location, about elbow height. Workable (I’m typing on it now) but not preferable for really banging out the work. But not uncomfortable enough or un-ergonomic enough to fight with the platform. Just enough to remind me to stand.

    5. Linda L*

      We moved offices in June of this year, and had stand/sit desks at our new location. I actually have never used my chair once since we’ve been here. I sit for lunch and meetings only. I’m the only one in the office who does this, most sit all day or stand for an hour at most. I asked an ergonomic expert who visited about this and she said as long as I’m not feeling fatigued to just do whatever I’m comfortable with. I just prefer standing.

    6. KX*

      It turns out, I prefer standing, too. Our office switched to all convertible desks, and I was surprised that I was one of the perpetual standers. I don’t get tired from it, either, but sometimes I do sit when I really have to concentrate.

    7. CS Rep by Day, Writer by Night*

      I sit most of the day. I would never use a standing desk as standing for extended periods of time actually hurts my back, whereas I never experience pain from sitting.

      1. New Job So Much Better*

        Hurts my lower back to stand for any length of time. And when I sit, the monitors are too high on the standing desk and I end up with shoulder pain.

    9. PDXJael*

      I usually use mine when working on mundane tasks that I’d be easily distracted away from (it’s easier to stay focused when I’m not just chillin’ in my chair mindlessly reading another AAM posts…). Also, I bought a cheapy balance board for under my desk. I LOVE IT. It helps prevent fatigue in my feet and legs because they are moving rather than static.

    10. Jadelyn*

      I mostly sit, maybe two or three times a day I’ll change it to standing for 15 or 20 minutes. I really should do more, but tbh I have to be working on something that is relatively light in terms of concentration required while I’m standing – I tend to lean on my desk and stare at stuff when I’m trying to work out tough problems, which is not particularly feasible while I’m standing up.

    11. The Tin Man*

      I usually stand for the first 1-2 hours of the day. After that I’ll usually stand another 1-2 hours later in the day if I’m feeling good or antsy, though that habit has died.

      I always set it to “stand” when I leave though, so it is waiting for me that way when I get in.

    12. Qwerty*

      I highly recommend easing into use of the standing desk! When I had one, I used it for 2-3 times a day for 20min the first week, then increased the usage each week. The coworkers who were tempted to go full force standing for most of the day working up to ended up being in pain after a couple days and never using the standing part again (same goes for yoga ball chairs)

      How much I used mine depended on how much of my work I could do while standing up. Generally I’d use it for 1-2 hours in the morning and for another hour mid-afternoon to counteract the post-lunch slump

    13. cherylblossom*

      Ladies with sit/stand desks – what kind of shoes do you wear when you are standing? I just got a sit/stand but am finding my work shoes not a viable option for standing more than 15 min at a time. I wear fairly practical work shoes (no heels, mainly flats, sometimes oxfords) so am surprised by this and also have an anti-fatigue mat.

      1. Corky's Wife Bonnie*

        If I am wearing shoes that aren’t the most supportive, I keep a pair of Dansko chef’s clogs under my desk to use when I’m standing. I can easily slip them on and off.

      2. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

        Today I’m wearing a pair of Mary Jane style shoes from Clark’s. I’ve also worn athletic shoes (we have a casual office). I haven’t had my desk long enough to try with any of my other shoes. It’ll probably be a couple of weeks until I do – I’m recovering from a knee injury so there are a lot of shoes I’m not currently wearing.

        On the bright side, the standing doesn’t appear to be any worse for my knee than any of my other normal activities (and is still easier than stairs).

    14. Goya de la Mancha*

      Have one, love it.

      How I spend my time completely depends on what my workload is for that day. Computer work usually has me standing for at least half the day. If I’m working with papers then I’m generally sitting.

    15. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      I got mine this week! (Well, last Friday afternoon.)

      I find I’m standing about a third of the time. More likely to use it in the morning, and more likely to use it when I’m writing code. If I’m trying to analyze something, or read something, I’m more likely to sit.

      I’ve already found that I really need to keep my core engaged while standing to keep my posture appropriate, which is probably good for me. I also fidget differently when I’m standing versus when I’m sitting, and I’m less likely to twist myself into a pretzel (which I will do while sitting, no matter the surface).

      I’m still trying to figure out what to do with the anti-fatigue mat when I switch between sitting and standing. I don’t like to have my chair on the mat, but it’s annoying to move the mat back and forth when I change. Definitely keeping the mat, though.

    16. SavannahMiranda*

      I just got one too, aren’t they great!

      Reluctant joiner here. Having worked many years in retail and service, I would have cried good tears at any of those positions if I was given chance to sit down at my jobs. It seems the definition of a certain kind of privilege to me that us white collar workers are actually flocking to stand up at our desks, and having our companies pay very good money for fancy contraptions to do it. Darkly hilarious. Satirical.

      I finally got a standing desk and I am quite shocked and chastened that I love it.

      I stand and sit about 50 / 50. When my feet hurt, I sit down! It’s probably the fact that I can sit, that it’s a choice, that makes the standing desk not so laughable.

      I got it for purposes of focus, and running back and forth on print jobs. I simply focus better standing. Damnit. I hate it but I do. When it’s a focus project, I stand up.

      And every few days I have complex print jobs on multiple paper stocks with color, duplex, special enclosures, and a bunch of variations that make a person crazy. Sitting down, printing, standing up, running to the printer, coming back, sitting down, printing, and standing up again got reallllly old. I figured if I have to do this I should just stay standing until the print jobs are done. It really does help.

  6. Clorinda*

    I am partway through the school district’s mandatory video training program and just came here to let everyone know: it’s called Safety Awareness and Prevention, which makes me laugh a little bit. Have a great weekend!

    1. CBE*

      Please do share with us exactly what we need to do to prevent safety, now that we are aware of it.

      1. Clorinda*

        Essentially it boils down to, let the custodians clean up all the blood, and never be in a room alone with a student. Something about ladders, but I dozed off for a minute.

        1. Lora*

          If you walk under them it’s very bad luck, because it’s bad luck to have a maintenance guy drop a wrench, wire dikes or paint cans on your head.

        2. Quackeen*

          Police officer: Detective, we found a pool of the killer’s blood in the hallway!

          Detective: Hmm, gross! Mop it up. Now, then. Back to my hunch

          /john mulaney

        3. Annie Moose*

          Oooh do you have to watch videos on blood-borne pathogens?? That’s the “favorite” of the teachers in my family.

          1. Clorinda*

            Just finished blood-borne pathogens, now on to staff-to-staff sexual harassment … It’s a long day of four hours of poorly acted video with occasional quizzes randomly inserted to make sure we pay attention. It’s running on a different window so I’m just listening and hanging out here.

            1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

              Be sure you learn how to sexually harass your coworkers correctly.

                1. Clorinda*

                  wow, I just realized that might come off sounding like a complaint about Pay No Attention’s comment, which is not what I meant at all–so sorry, I’m a little woozy from all these videos! I meant to say that the videos really focus on social media and creepy text messages.

                2. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

                  You’re good.

                  Creepy text messages ARE in style. But part of that, I think, is you really have to know your audience before trying to be witty in text. Tone and facial expressions add a lot to the context of words and when they are absent, what’s meant to be funny or sarcastic might come across as creepy or threatening.

          2. Quill*

            My mother has to recertify every so often. She comes home, puts on a mock terrified face, and tells me “Don’t touch blood!”

            This was extra funny when I worked with biosamples.

        4. Anonymosity*

          Just make sure no black cats walk under them. You might fall off if you’re climbing down hastily to pet the kitty.

      2. Auntie Social*

        And I was unaware that we needed to prevent safety. Tells you how much I need to see that training video!

      1. TGIFTGIF*

        My Mother was a first grade teacher for many years. This reminds me of a mangled sentence in a memo she received before a scheduled tornado drill one year… Students will no longer be required to protect their books with their heads.

        2. MagicToilet*

          Are you sure that was a mistake? Books are expensive, people keep making children.

          It reminds me of a memo that went out a few years ago at work about appropriate casual clothing in the workplace. It ended with something like “If you’re not sure if you should wear something, don’t.” I never took them up on the instruction to wear nothing, as the office is too cold to go naked.

        3. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

          Although to be fair they don’t say the children should stop protecting their books — just not with their head. Heads aren’t protective enough — they should hug them closely to their torso.

    5. SoCalHR*

      Its like when everyone calls it “sexual harassment training” – you know, if you’re going to harass someone, we want you to be trained properly! (And of couree its actually “sexual harassment PREVENTION training”)

      1. Climber*

        I had to take training that was about how to spot and respond to racist or abusive situations (training for a college campus). They didn’t want to offend anyone so they had scenarios of people talking but instead of people they used dinosaurs. And the dinosaurs had little talking bubbles that had random inoffensive images in them. So in one scene a dinosaur was saying something racist about a pineapple. I think.
        It was amusing and made for more interesting training.

        1. General Ginger*

          That actually sounds like a video I’d be able to pay attention to just because of the novelty and the weirdness. What a great idea!

        2. Anonymosity*

          Hahaha, I would like that one. Usually it’s really bad actors squeezing women’s shoulders. In one I saw, a guy in a break room setting was making suggestive remarks about a banana. I knew I was supposed to take it seriously, but I could hardly keep from giggling like mad, it was so stupid.

      2. Specialk9*

        I had a friend who volunteered with a counter-human trafficking nonprofit. She was taking or giving training frequently, but she always left the “counter” part out.
        “I had the longest human trafficking training yesterday!”
        “So now you’re adept at it?”

        I felt kinda guilty because it was really noble work, but I couldn’t resist the joke.

      3. blackcat*

        See, I’ve been to such a training that really was a training. It was basically a lesson in how to sexually harass without it breaking the law and/or get caught. The university is aiming to minimize it’s liability, I think.

  7. Anon Today*

    TLDR; how do I tell my boss that I’m not interested in taking on an additional responsibility? At least not without appropriate compensation.

    My coworker put in her two weeks – she had a specialized skill set, and I (along with another coworker) have been asked if we are interested in taking that on. Just on the face of it, it’s something I’m not particularly interested in. Additionally, it requires certification (training is provided), liability, continuing education. It’ll look good on my resume, but it’s also not something I want to be stuck doing as a primary responsibility. I don’t mind doing it as part of a rotation with others.

    So, any good scripts for letting my boss know I’m not sure this is for me, that want to help (but only as part of a rotation), and can’t commit without revisiting compensation?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      It doesn’t sound like your boss is being adamant that you take it on, so I’d simply start with “Thank you for thinking of me, but I’m not interested in going through that training and taking it on as a new responsibility.”

      If boss pushes back, then you could say something like “This would be a fairly significant increase in responsibility that doesn’t seem commensurate with my current salary.”

      1. Anon today*

        My boss and her boss both sat me down to discuss it, so it definitely seemed like more than “are you interested?” I’ve only been here 4 months so I just don’t want to rock the boat!

        1. Nessun*

          That could be a good building block for the conversation then – “Thank you for thinking of me, but I’m not interested in taking further training at this time, as I am still growing comfortable with my current workload and your expectations.” Maybe you could mention that you’re open to re-examining the ask further down the road (if you are).

        2. Havarti*

          I guess they’re not open to hiring a replacement? When you started, was there any indication during the interview or after that what your departing coworker does would land in your lap? If not, I think it’s fair to say “When I started here, I was hoping to do XYZ, not ABC. I’d be happy to help out with ABC but I would need guidance on how to prioritize my responsibilities. If you want me to take it on top of my existing duties, is there an opportunity for a raise after successfully completing certification?” Or something. How long would you like to stay at this job? Would it be worth it to have it on your resume for a future job down the road? Would you and other coworker split the duties? Have you talked to the other person that was asked?

    2. Thlayli*

      Two ways to put it:
      1 I’m not interested thanks for thinking of me but it’s not my cup of tea
      2 I would be interested but it depends on how much the pay rise would be.

      Note that in 2 you are not asking IF there is a pay rise, you are assuming you are being offered a chance to apply for the job, including a pay rise. If he says “oh there’s no pay rise” then you go straight to option 1 “in that case I’m not interested thanks”

    3. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      Depending on your relationship with your boss, I think that your last sentence is just fine, “I want to help, but only as part of a rotation and taking it on as a primary job duty. But if this is going to be a required part of the job going forward and I will be expected to get trained and certified, I would like to talk about a pay increase.”

    4. Zennish*

      Sounds to me like “We’re going to dump ex-coworkers duties on you, but we’d feel much better if we pretended we gave you a choice and you agreed to it”. Every time I’ve had a boss ask “Are you interested in taking this on?” It’s meant “You are interested in taking this on.”

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yeah, I was thinking about that also.
        “Since that will require certification, continuing ed and such which means an increase in responsibility. I think that increase in responsibility should be reflected in my pay.”

        In other words, you’re going to make me do this, so pay me.

      2. SavannahMiranda*

        Ah ha, the good ole “voluntold.”

        Depending on the workplace culture, OP may be getting voluntold to take this on.

    5. AliceW*

      I realize every industry and company is different but the way to get promoted in many large corporations and to obtain larger pay raises and bigger bonuses is to volunteer to take on more responsibility, even things you don’t want to do (within reason of course). It shows you want to take on more responsibility and have created capacity by being super efficient in your current job. And after you take on extra work and if you demonstrate excellence, a good company will reward you. It seems like it rarely happens that you get a raise for taking on more responsibility at something until after you’ve demonstrated you can handle that responsibility. That said, there are crappy companies who do not recognize your extra workload and obviously if it is something you have absolutely no interest in doing even if they paid you a lot more, then you can feel free to decline.

      1. Not a Dr*

        It’s nice that you have had experiences where bosses notice or reward you for taking on more tasks. In north America at least that is very rare!

  8. Multitudinous*

    I need a conversational script or something to help with a coworker who constantly interrupts me to make jokes at my expense. Sometimes this will be in a casual conversation, i.e., “Sorry my phone started playing music at my desk this morning, I was listening to it on the way to work and-” “You call that music? I thought there was a dying cat in here!”
    But other times it’s in a more serious work conversation, i.e. “I was thinking it would streamline the process to send this year’s llama reports directly to grooming instead of-” “Remember when you went to the grooming office looking for HR? Ha ha!”
    I’m always flustered when this happens and I don’t know if I should laugh at the jokes, try to think up a snappy comeback, or just plow through. Sometimes the joke derails the conversation enough that the group has completely forgotten whatever I was trying to say. I can try to live with it in casual conversations, but it’s more of a problem during work discussions. This coworker and I are 2 members in a 3 person team and in a small office overall, so avoiding them isn’t really an option, and they don’t seem to do this to anyone else. I just want to get through a conversation without being interrupted and laughed at.

    1. Clorinda*

      Silent frowning stare, followed by, “As I was saying..” (and everyone can mentally fill in the “before I was so rudely interrupted” on their own. And don’t ever, ever laugh.

      1. samiratou*

        Yeah, I was going to go with “confused look, shake head slightly “so, anyway….” but same concept.

    2. Reba*

      I agree with Clorinda that a big part of this is mastering your flustered-ness. Stony stare, then continue. That sounds so difficult and also strange.

      Depending on your relationship with the person, I also think it would be worth a conversation where you point out the pattern of derailing–without assigning any motivations, staying neutral and friendly–and ask him to stop and/or let you get to the end of your sentences when you are working. He will quite possibly not appreciate the feedback, so again, don’t get flustered. Feel free to say, yeah, sure, you’re right, I’m no fun and I don’t have a sense of humor when I’m trying to talk about Work Topic.

      So then when it happens in future you can say, “see, this is an example of the thing we talked about.” Or, “you’re interrupting me again.”

      Hope you see some changes.

    3. OtterB*

      Don’t laugh at the “jokes” unless they hit on something you actually think is funny.

      In the work example you gave, I’d try responding with a blank look (“Why would you ask that?”) and immediately go back to what you were saying, with or without an explicit acknowledgement of the interruption. So either after the blank look and a beat of silence, continue “I think it would streamline the process to send this year’s llama reports directly to grooming, what do you think?” Or say “That doesn’t have anything to do with my question. I think it would streamline the process…”

      This could also work in casual conversation if there’s some place for the conversation to go. In the example you gave, I think you could just shrug and say, “Different tastes” and then continue to a work topic, or just back to work.

    4. Thosetaxreturnswontfilethemselves*

      +1 co-worker is rude. Don’t ever laugh. If people try to do this to me, I typically give a surprised annoyed look, and say “anyway” and start speaking again.

      I usually give a look similar to if you saw a co-worker eat something out of the trash, like okay, you do you, but I am not going to pretend I didn’t just seem something very out of the ordinary.

    5. Notthemomma*

      Stop all speech. Pause, look at them directly in the eye with your head slightly cocked to one side. Blink three times, then turn away and resume exactly where you left off.
      It acknowledges that they are the center of attention they so desperately want to be, while not verbally engaging or giving them an ‘I was just joking’ opening. If they do say something to that effect, reply with “oh?” Slight confusion in your voice and resume.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        Notthemomma: I love that you’ve got such specific guidelines for the time – that’s actually helpful to me.

        Multitudinous:
        +1 to the ‘Do Not Laugh’
        Since he’s doing this to you, and not to others, you naturally want to figure out why, thinking that’ll help solve it. It won’t really – the actions everyone is suggesting here cover all the reasons. Focus on his actions not motivations.

    6. Rusty Shackelford*

      “Interruption.”

      Pause. Confused stare. “Okay.” Continue as if you weren’t interrupted.

    7. Camellia*

      My husband is this guy. Most people love him; in fact, we just came from a doctor’s visit and when the PA came in she said, “Aw, my favorite, you always cheer me up!” But sometimes it does interfere. I had a talk with him a long time ago and explained that sometimes this “impedes the process”, and we agreed that I could call him out if this was the case. And I do literally say, in a kindly manner, “You are impeding the process.” and he says, aw, you’re right, and then things go quicker from there.

      Can you have a similar chat with this guy and agree on a key phrase like “Let’s stay focused,” or some such, to signal him when he needs to shut up and, you know, stay focused?

      1. Multitudinous*

        When you said “most people love him,” I realized that’s a similar thing to what’s happening here. Most people really like this guy, so I feel even more awkward addressing it and being the wet blanket. I tend toward RBF anyway, so being the one who shuts down the jokes on top of that…

        1. Clorinda*

          He can make jokes at his own expense if he’s so funny. And do most people really like this guy because of his sense of humor or in spite of it? If you think he’s a reasonable person, then by all means try the private conversation first, and then, go with the nuclear RBF.

        2. Quinalla*

          I too would talk to him about it when work is involved, when it’s socializing, I’d probably mostly give it a pass unless he’s doing it A LOT, but for work, he’s just derailing the conversation so much.
          I’d go with the “Anyway, as I was saying…” and don’t laugh, but I wouldn’t act too stony at least at first as yeah, that comes off as too cold as a woman. If he keeps doing it, I’d get cooler and then cold and call him out more explicitly “Why do you keep interrupting me?” “Stop interrupting me.” as reasonable people will understand you gave him a chance to cut it out. It’s always fun to try and balance being too cold and too warm as a woman in the workplace, isn’t it!?

        3. MusicWithRocksInIt*

          If you are uncomfortable calling him out on the joking just make it about the interrupting. Not liking to be interrupted is universal. Next time he does it just ask him not to interrupt you when you are speaking. Just a plain, straightforward “Guy, please don’t interrupt me when I’m speaking.” Then call it out every. single. time. he. does. it. “Guy, you interrupted me again, please don’t do that. Try to sound as calm and matter of fact as you can. “Guy, I’ve asked you several times today not to interrupt when I’m speaking.” Other people will realize he is the one crossing lines. Even try “Guy, when you interrupt me it usually derails our conversation about work that I need to have with you. Can you please focus until we get work issues resolved?”

          1. SavannahMiranda*

            I like this. A lot. It circumvents the red herring of whether the jokes at OP’s expense are ‘funny’, and it entirely sidesteps questions of whether this is latent aggression or oblivious stupidity in the person’s behavior. This approach doesn’t get mired down in either of those things at all! No armchair diagnosis. No opinions about humor. Simply a factual focus on the acts themselves. Her approach can be “stop interrupting” or it can be stony stare, either way the agenda is “stop interrupting me” and there are no other points on the agenda to get dragged into. This is perfect.

        4. samiratou*

          Ugh, if everyone loves him it does make it a bit harder than if he were the office blowhard that people roll their eyes at, anyway. It sucks that you could come off looking as the bad guy shutting his shit down, but there you are.

          I revise my statement above from confused look to “very brief, tight smile and continue talking as though he said nothing”

          Or, if he tends to make his comments on the same topics, come up with a few snappy comebacks you could use before continuing with what you were saying.

        5. Library Land*

          I was horrified when I realized my husband is this guy. He has no clue, he just wants everyone to be happy and at ease. He doesn’t realize that it’s hurtful and not always welcome (evident by the fact that when I do it to him, he gets upset).

          I also had to do this with my boss who thought of it as good-natured teasing but had no clue that he was doing every half-hour to hour. If you feel comfortable enough, pull him aside and say something, like “Hey, I don’t know if you notice but every time I come in you make a joke at my expense. That’s a lot, can we take it down or stop those all together? Or even just joke about subjects that are not me?”

          1. Not So NewReader*

            This is why I find it hard to believe everyone likes OP’s cohort. Nobody likes being the butt of a joke over and over and over.

          2. Lissa*

            I think that sometimes it can actually be really helpful to point out that a particular interaction is happening a lot. I once had to say to a coworker (we’re both women) “Hey, do you realize that every time you see me you make a comment about my appearance?” She sort of cringed and said “always negative?” and I was like “yup” and she apologised. I also recently did this to a guy who had said to me, two or three times “I have no sympathy for you!” when we were discussing various work frustrations (of which his were worse by many standards, but it was a “shooting the shit” type conversation and just felt kinda mean).

          3. Gumby*

            A couple of times I have had jokes that I thought were “in jokes” between me and a friend / sibling – “remember that time when” and to me those were things that showed I knew her well, remembered our long association, and the thing I was referring to was a small peccadillo and didn’t reflect badly on her. I’d reference them from time to time (like maybe once a year at most). Until the person had a mini-blow-up at me. And I totally get it. It bugged them, so I stopped.

            I absolutely want to know if I am doing something that annoys you or if you feel I’m speaking badly of you. But I’d also appreciate it a lot more if you said something when it was a small annoyance rather that yell at me when you reach boiling point. I had NO IDEA it bugged either person. Neither had ever said anything to me about it.

            1. Marthooh*

              These people did something stupid and you’re still bringing it up years later? Yeah, that’s annoying. From now on, if you want to reference an inside joke, make it about your own peccadilloes.

        6. LF*

          As a fellow “Wet Blanket,” I just had to reply to say- UUUUGGGH! We have one of these, too, and he bugs the crap out of me.

          I like all thr advice here, especially giving him a neutral-to-negative look (e.g., blinking, confusd expression) then getting back to the conversation.

          I want to emphasize: don’t try to come up with some snappy reply to the “joke.” If you’re like me at all, you’ll just end up flustered, cranky, and the center of negative attention!

        7. ..Kat..*

          But, do they really love him? Or are they just laughing nervously? This kind of thing may be funny in small doses (or if you aren’t trying to get something done), but it quickly gets old and annoying.

      2. SavannahMiranda*

        That’s a wholllle lotta emotional labor for a workplace class clown. It’s a really good solution with your husband. That sounds like a great win-win in that arena. You guys sound healthy for each other.

        I love my partner too and may occasionally choose to do tons of emotional labor for him, including acting as a hidden radar system that alerts him to his egregiousness in an inoffensive and ego-protective way.

        But coworkers? Especially a coworker who only targets me with this behavior? Nah. Not so much. No requirement, or attendant payoff, for preserving a clown’s ego.

    9. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      I would get her by herself and say: “You know, I really don’t think the jokes and snide remarks are appropriate–in general but especially when I’m/we’re discussing work. I would appreciate it if you would refrain from doing it. Ok. Thank you.” Be prepared for her to say you can’t take a joke. If she does, then say “I love jokes, but not snide remarks and insults. “

      1. Catwoman*

        +1 for this. I think the stare/non-response and continuing are great for an in-the-moment reaction, but you should also pull this person aside and have the private conversation as well. This also puts her ‘on notice’, so to speak so that if the behavior continues you can respond with a more direct, ‘Delores, we’ve talked about this. Please stop interrupting me.’

      2. SavannahMiranda*

        +1 too. There’s also the closing method recommended by Captain Awkward. “No, I can’t take a joke. Stop interrupting me in work conversations.” Or “Nope I have no sense of humor! Don’t interrupt me at work.”

        In other words, it prevents being baited by a bait-loving person into ridiculous dignity losing back and forths about who can and can’t take a joke and other drivel. It takes the wind out of their sails. While enforcing them boundary.

        And it tells them their their opinion about your sense of humor, or whatever the topic may be, means pffft to you. It puts the uselessness of their accusation in perspective as exactly the meaningless childish comment that it is. It doesn’t even warrant a conversation.

      3. Specialk9*

        I’m fascinated that you read the co-worker as female and I was so certain the pronoun was male. But nope, carefully neutral. I feel like people don’t generally laugh when women make that kind of jokes, but they do for men, and I’ve known several men like this but no women. Always good for me to check assumptions.

    10. LilySparrow*

      This is like trying to have an adult conversation with kids around.

      It works well for me to hold up one finger and keep talking like you didn’t hear him. Then when you’ve finished your thought, turn to the interruptor and say, “Okay, now, you were saying?”

      That might not fly at the office, but it’s a pretty effective training method.

      1. Formerly Arlington*

        I was just going to suggest this! Or kind of what you do when you’re at a meeting and there’s a loud ambulance outside— pause briefly and keep going. Treating this as more than a momentary irritation gives it too much power and encourages this class clown type to engage further.

    11. Lora*

      If he is in his 70s and still not retired, is his name Ren? Cause he sounds like my uncle.

      Yeah, what others have said, just have an uncomfortable silence and redirect. He won’t ever get tired of it though, I think my uncle still hasn’t gotten over his “if that’s The Cure I’d hate to see the disease!” joke about the Robert Smith poster on my bedroom wall in college.

      I also favor the following responses:
      -Fake-smile, pause. “Are you enjoying yourself? Good, I’m glad you’re entertaining yourself.”
      -Fake-smile. “Thanks for coming in today! Really appreciate your contribution.”
      -“What would we ever do without you? I can’t imagine.”
      -Uncomfortable pause. “Anything else? Are you all set?”
      -Uncomfortable pause. “I just want you to be happy. Are you happy, with yourself? Good, I’m glad I was able to provide some joy in your life. I WANT YOU TO BE HAPPY, BECAUSE I CARE. I hope you know I care.”

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        That works socially (I would say, work *gloriously* socially), but professionally, no smile and ‘Please stop interrupting me’ + ‘As I’ve asked before, please stop interrupting me’ are the right responses.

    12. Photographer*

      These response ideas would make you look super rude if you said them. Just work on your ability to hold onto your train of thought and continue on. Some people are interrupters—which is bad manners, I get it— but these responses are over the top. A “ha ha, as I was saying” will be smooth and won’t make you look like a wet blanket.

      1. CupcakeCounter*

        but why should they have to deal with a coworker making jokes at their expense – this seems to be a pretty good time to be a wet blanket

      2. Zona the Great*

        I don’t agree that not looking like a wet blanket should be anyone’s concern when in a professional place.

    13. Agathe_M*

      I agree with a lot of the above, but I’m also a very self-deprecating person who is usually the butt of jokes, my own and others, which I rarely mind or take seriously. My entire family is this way; our house is a permanent sitcom, and people who don’t get that sort of humor think we’re all just really mean to each other. In reality, insulting jokes are our love language, so I may have some perspective from your co-worker’s side. (I would be more careful bringing this kind of humor to work, but anyway…)

      If this has been going on for a while, your coworker may honestly not realize that you aren’t enjoying his humor, or think it’s just a bunch of in-jokes that you have. You don’t have to respond harshly right away–if you ‘laugh’ at the jokes, or even just go ‘ha, yeah, anyway, what I was saying’, that’d probably be the easiest option. I mean, yes, he’s being rude, but you’re two of a team of three.

      But to get onto the same page humor-wise, you’ll probably need to talk to him, especially because this happens in work discussions. I’d say something like, “hey, Bill, can I talk to you about something? I’ve noticed that you often interrupt me to make a joke, and, especially when I’m talking about something work-related, I find it pretty jarring. Do you think you could try to cut down on that?”

      I wouldn’t bring up that he’s making you the butt of the joke, although I do get that’s an issue too–but focusing on that first risks framing your request as “you’re being mean” rather than “you do a weird conversational thing”. The second one is easier for people to hear and act on than the first. If you need to, you can add in, “one thing also, I find that a lot of the jokes are about me, and I’m not usually sure how to react to that. What’s that about?” Hopefully, he’s just clueless, and will cut back, and (if he’s generally a good guy) will be mortified that he’s made things awkward. But his reaction to this will help you figure out next steps.

      Like others have said, if you want to try an indirect method before a “can we talk?”, I’ve found that a dead facial expression coupled with a “hmmm” usually conveys, “You said a thing. I heard the thing. The thing was neither interesting nor funny.” But that’s pretty harsh, and depending on your dynamic might be way too cold. (You can add an empty smile in there, if you want to lighten it a little, but still.) It might be better to save this level of response for after the “can we talk?”, if that doesn’t go well.

    14. CupcakeCounter*

      This is where everyone needs to perfect The Rock’s eyebrow rise. Mine don’t work that way (unfortunately) so my resting bitch/husband’s in trouble/son what did you do face works pretty well. The key is to stare them down until they pitifully wind themselves down.
      Then follow with the “As I was saying” language below.

      But for real – work on the “why are you talking little adolescent peon” face

    15. EditorInChief*

      I had a coworker like that. Straightfaced I would wait for him to finish and then say “Are you done?” then go back to the discussion, “As I was saying….” After a few times with that he stopped doing it. I like it better than saying something like “Please don’t interrupt me”, which leaves it open for him to argue, I’m not interruping you. “Are you done” really shut down the conversation.

      1. ronda*

        I second this one… but I am for being a little more direct….. ” are you done interrupting me” , but I can see why you might leave out the part about interrupting.

        This might not be the kind of person who understands the death stares….. you need to use your words.

    16. Camellia*

      All the versions of ‘…interrupted me/don’t interrupt me…” sound harsh to me and too much in-your-face.

      I find that looking toward the person and giving a tiny little nod toward them, at the same time saying, in a calm, low-key voice, “Let’s stay focused,” and then continuing with what I am saying, works well. Only if that failed a couple of times would I then start resorting to an ‘interrupt’ script.

      1. ket*

        In the same vein, a mini-fake-laugh and “Let’s save the joking around for after the meeting!” with a touch of that preschool teacher tone of voice could redirect back to the work conversation.

    17. Not So NewReader*

      Are you female and young and is he older? Or is there just a good age difference, like 20 plus years between the two of you?
      If yes, I hated this crap. It went away when I got older, but still. Condescension to the max.

      I’d ask him why he only talks to you that way and not everyone else.

      In my experience it was older males who did this to me. (I am female.) It was like someone throwing rocks at me, only it was verbal rocks. I got so I had a knot in my stomach every time I had to deal with such a person. One guy pushed too hard. He thought it would be very funny to lock me in the walk-in freezer. I think that was the most angry I have ever been at work. Once I got out of the freezer I let him know in no uncertain terms that he was never, ever to do that to me again. I was so angry that basically the relationship as coworkers was over. He avoided me like the plague.
      Don’t wait until you are beside yourself angry to deal with this crap. And it’s crap, it’s not cutsie, it’s not endearing rather it is just plain crap.

      Perhaps you can enlist your other coworker to help you tell this guy that his jokes at your expense are tired and are so over.
      You might start off easy such as, “Bob, you always crack jokes at my expense. Is that like a nervous tic? Is there some way we can stop doing this?”
      You can build up to, “Bob, there you go again with jokes at my expense. I am asking you to stop.”
      “Bob, why do you not do this with the boss and big bosses?”
      “Bob, I know you are looking for me to laugh, but all your jokes point out my failures. It’s just not that funny.”

      My last card would be, “Bob do you think this is okay to do because of my age/gender? If yes, I think we ought to sit down with the boss and talk about this.” He might stop before you get that far. I ended up being able to handle the worst Mr. Clueless myself and never involving the boss. I think my temper scared him, though.

      1. Specialk9*

        Yeah. This just all felt so familiar to me too. There’s something about being female and being/looking young that makes people – older men especially – pull this crap.

        It was actually really reassuring to learn that the “it was just a joke” was so often a self aware ploy. I could see it for the camoflaged weapon it was and not make excuses for them.

        1. only acting normal*

          Agree. It was predictably two older men who interrupted me during a presentation I was giving a while back to make fun of 1) the way I was pointing at the slides (?!) and 2) a symbol I’d used in a graphic *that they also use in all their graphics*. I mean WTF?!
          I only read as young these days; I’m actually in my 40s. When I was young this would have derailed me completely, as it was I just gave then a confused look and carried on. (Reason #273 I would never be 20-something again.)

    18. Saskia*

      I’m sorry you have to deal with this coworker.

      If they don’t treat other people this way, it seems like you are being bullied.

      If you want to look up snappy comebacks, I hope you may get some suggestions for resources from other posters.
      You might try searching Captain Awkward posts if you haven’t already.

      Please check your workplace policies regarding bullying and harassment, so you know what processes to follow if you try to resolve the ‘joking’ and interruptions without success.

      Start documenting the ‘jokes’ and interruptions so you have concrete examples to refer to. If your employer doesn’t take bullying seriously, you can point to the number of interruptions and derails in meetings that lead to a loss of efficiency.

      The coworker wants you to feel flustered, they are interrupting you and trying to humiliate or embarrass you on purpose. It’s okay that you don’t feel collected and cool as a cucumber – you’re under pressure, what they are doing is designed to make you feel bad.

      I don’t know how coworker will respond to being called out. But if you were prepared to try it, you might speak with them once away from other coworkers, and say something like ‘I notice that you interrupt me and tell a lot of jokes at my expense. It’s not cool, and I want you to stop doing it. I’m not going to play along and pretend it’s fine anymore.’

      If they continue the behaviour, you could try ‘are you finished? as I was saying…’ or ‘Huh. As I was saying…’

      You don’t deserve to be treated this way, it’s not okay, and I hope you have access to effective HR.

  9. RockyRoad*

    Was hoping someone involved in HR or recruiting could explain a confusing and weird thing I’m starting to encounter.

    I’ve applied to few jobs where I had to upload a resume and also manually input everything from my resume in a zillion separate fields, and then when I did a phone screen with HR or a recruiter from that company, they wanted me to repeat everything verbally. It sounded like they were retyping everything while we were on the phone.

    Like, they’d ask the following for each job: “So you worked at Teapots Inc for a while? Okay…And you were a Teapot designer there? Alright…And you worked there from March 2014 to December of 2017? Great…And what did you do there? Uh-huh…”

    I’m wondering why they need the same information in three different forms? It seems very inefficient.

    1. nep*

      Wow that sounds like it’s got inefficient written all over it, for sure. I’ll be interested in any insights here.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      When I was doing recruiting, we always verified information verbally. A lot of people leave out significant details on their resume/application.

      1. RockyRoad*

        Thanks for explaining! It’s very unfortunate that needs to be done. :/ I hate following rules and instructions and then being punished because other people couldn’t. (Like being well behaved in elementary school and the whole class getting punished because a few kids wouldn’t shut up.)

        1. Database Developer Dude*

          RockyRoad,
          You hate following rules and instructions, then being punished because others couldn’t? Try being a junior enlisted Soldier in the Army. When I first joined up in active duty, that easily made the top 5 list of my pet peeves, every. single. day.

          1. Specialk9*

            It kind of sounds like you’re invalidating their experience by turning it into a competition that you assume you already won.

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              Can I ask that we stop this kind of chastising of other commenters? There’s been an increasing amount of it lately and it makes the site less pleasant.

    3. Cass*

      I’ve worked in multiple applicant tracking systems and have been on the implementation side as well. It allows a company to standardize the way they receive the information and also requires information that may not necessarily be on every resume. For instance we may want to know if the job was full or part time, maybe a resume only listed years at a company instead of months, etc. Is it redundant and a pain in the ass? You bet.

      Personally, I think there’s a balance to be had depending on the type of job being recruited for. Entry level administrative assistant where we can expect a couple hundred applicants? I’d prefer the applicant tracking system. But for a more specialized role where we might only attract a dozen applicants? I’d much rather just get a resume and cover letter.

      1. RockyRoad*

        But if they wanted to know if something was part time or full time, wouldn’t that be include in the section where you’re retyping your entire resume? It can’t be that hard to add another field if you already have fields for company name, supervisor, address, phone number, position title, month/year started and ended, job duties, reason for leaving, etc. for each job.

        It seems like it would be easier to just reject anyone who can’t fill out the application correctly rather than having people who filled it out correctly repeat everything over the phone.

    4. MagicToilet*

      I can talk to the upload-then-type reasoning. One step is uploading or typing your resume. This document is not necessarily a legal document: you can leave jobs off, maybe do interesting things with dates or company names. The idea is to showcase your best work and why you’re best for the job.

      The application where you have to put data in millions of little places is more for legal reasons. We need complete information so we can do proper pre-employment checks and there’s some laws that the application satisfies that the resume doesn’t.

      From my time in HR, I’ve seen that most of the times we make things repetitive or overly complicated, it’s usually to satisfy some law. Employment law is b-a-n-a-n-a-s.

        1. Natalie*

          I don’t think there are specific laws mandating what’s on an application (there are no specific laws mandating applications, in fact), it’s more a legal compliance thing. That is, the company’s attorneys have decided that doing things a certain way is the easiest way for the company to prove that they are following other, related laws.

        2. Jadelyn*

          It’s not laws, at least not in all situations, so much as certain CYA habits that have collectively developed.

          Think of it like asking about someone’s marital or family status in an interview. The law only covers *making your hiring decisions* based on those factors – it’s perfectly legal to ask about, you just can’t let those factor in your decision to hire or not hire someone. But if someone makes a claim that you broke that law, and you have to try to convince a labor attorney or judge that you didn’t, it makes it a lot easier if you can say “I couldn’t have made my decision based on that – I didn’t even know they were married/pregnant/living in sin/whatever!” because you never asked the question. Information you don’t have, can’t be held against you as easily. So to cover their butts, employers shy away from even asking the question, and people wind up with the misunderstanding that it’s illegal to ask those questions at all despite there being no law on that topic.

          But I don’t think the redundancy between resume, ATS, and phone screen is like that. Requiring a candidate to fill out a full application form even though we already have your resume, is done for two reasons in my experience: first, to get all the information into a consistent format between candidates. You can make a much fairer comparison between people when their work history is laid out identically side-by-side, versus looking at two different resumes that might have things in different order, or one is just more visually appealing than the other. Putting it all in the application strips away the fancy stuff. It also makes it searchable – keyword searches are a lot more reliable when they’re run against a database than against a word or PDF document, which can trip up keyword searches with formatting or weird OCR on the PDF.

          And second, as Alison reminds us from time to time, a resume is a marketing document. An application form is not. Most applications include a checkbox or verbiage somewhere near the submit button that says “I certify that this information is true and complete” or whatever – which a resume doesn’t have. You can be held accountable for information on an application form more easily than stuff on a resume.

          The phone screen part, though – yeah, that’s kinda dumb. My first question in a phone screen is to ask the candidate to walk me through their resume, but it’s more in the sense of “tell me the stuff that didn’t fit on the resume, and give me a sense of what your career trajectory has been and where you’re trying to go with it.” than just “repeat the dates and titles.”

          1. Binky*

            Wait, for the online applications you’re supposed to fill out your entire work history? How far back? I only fill in my permanent positions, none of my internships or short-term work, and nothing prior to grad school. I figured that stuff was just cluttering up my resume and employers had no interest. (I always put it in on background forms and the like, where I’m supposed to fill in a complete work history.) Is the expectation that while filling out application forms you’ll be exhaustive?

            1. Someone else*

              It depends. If the form says something like “all” or “complete history”, they probably want that. If it’s more vague, probably not crucial.

            2. Jadelyn*

              If the app doesn’t specify, I’d go with perhaps your last 3-5 jobs – depends on how long you were at each. If you’ve done a lot of short stays, I’d try to go back at least 3 years with it even if that means including a bunch of separate places. I wouldn’t include internships, as they’re not employment, but I would include short-term work if it was an employment relationship (ie, not freelancing or independent contractor).

              Like, for me, if I’m filling in an online application I’ve got my current employer (4.5 years), my time with a temp agency doing a variety of things for different companies, but I lump it all under the temp agency because they were my actual employer of record (2 yrs), and my last retail job (8 months because the store closed and we were all laid off). Prior to that I’d had a long break in employment for medical reasons, so I stop there rather than going back to my college jobs. Use your best judgment, basically – but I wouldn’t leave positions out the way you can on a resume, if they were actual jobs that fall within the time period you’re covering.

              1. Database Developer Dude*

                I’m 51, been working since I was 16. The last job I applied for before this one (5 years ago, when I was 46)….wanted to list jobs going back to 18, and schools going back to elementary school. Thank GOD for Booz Allen Hamilton. They at least have a saner hiring process.

            3. RockyRoad*

              I did a few internships, so when I have to fill out a work history where they’re relevant I’ll add an entry for “Various Internships” and then write out more specific information for each one in the large “list your duties” section. I figure the employer might be interested in knowing I did them, but they’re not important enough to warrant filling out three separate job sections for them.

          2. RockyRoad*

            I hadn’t considered that you want all the information in a consistent format to make it easier to compare candidates, to do keyword searches, and to hold people accountable for the information. That makes having to manually enter my whole resume more understandable, as annoying as it can be. Thanks for the insight!

      2. Anon Job Seeker*

        Then why are the application forms so poorly thought out and refuse to allow for you to properly enter your information when it doesn’t fit their mold? I am currently job searching for the first time in 5 years and I am senior level (but not c-suite). Last time I looked for a job I was off the market in two weeks. I’ve been following AMA since before I left my last job . This is the first time in my career that I’ve had so much trouble getting an interview. And I’m starting to suspect it’s because my resume doesn’t neatly fit those Jobvite style applications that are so popular now. My degree(s) are almost never included in the drop down list, and manually entering them has rarely been an option. So unless I want it to look like I have a 3 degrees in nothing, I am relegated to choosing “proxy” degrees. Which means I have to lie. I’ve also been forced to change Job titles on many of those systems as well, because apparently they don’t like it when you have a compound job title. I’m starting to think people are coming across my profile, think I’m full of it and then instantly disqualify me.

        Sorry, I’m just so frustrated right now. I’ve gotten to the point where I’ve just stopped applying to those jobs because they refuse to allow me to properly enter my information. I’ll have written a cover letter. I’ll get pages into the application, and then I get to the education section and they refuse to acknowledge my education and it feels like it was all for not.

  10. Snarkus Aurelius*

    What’s a good way to get out of my big boss’s monthly “voluntary” book club events? Every month, the club has to read a management book of his choosing — a genre I already hate because the bulk of the advice is aimed at white men in positions of power. (I’m neither.) I’ve been skipping out, but my immediate boss wants me to start attending in an act of good faith.

    Here’s why I don’t go:

    * Despite loving these books, my boss pretty much does whatever he wants. This approach has caused a lot of damage and alienated a lot of people.

    * I’m underpaid in comparison to my counterparts. Not by a lot, but enough to make me job hunt.

    * Our office has terrible support services — namely IT and accounting. Those two departments make my life ten times more difficult. They are consistently ranked lowed in internal surveys year after year yet nothing is done.

    * If my boss is confused or has a question about something, he never asks me. He will go ask the (usually) men at his old job instead.

    * There are a number of bad apples the big boss was supposed to take care of when he was hired, but nothing has changed. Those people continue to cause lots of damage.

    So, yeah, I’m not interested in spending any more time with him than I have to. I’ve never been to these book club events, but I’ve heard what’s supposed to be a discussion is just him talking.

    My immediate boss knows how I feel, but I’m not sure she cares.

    Oh and I’d take my laptop and phone to these things and do other work, but big boss banned those devices in meetings. (Thanks management books!)

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Are they going to give you time on the clock to read the book? If so, then I’d say do it. If not, “sorry, I won’t have time to read the book before the meeting.”

    2. MuseumChick*

      I would be tempted to have some (professional fun) with this. Like, you read book A that is geared towards white men in power and then processed to make the entire book club meeting mildly awkward for those in that demographic. Saying things in a neutral tone like: “The authors says X but as we all that disproportionately favors white men for Y reasons so I found myself really disagreeing with that section of the book.”

      1. Snarkus Aurelius*

        I’m tempted to do so. I’ve read some of this management advice. It’s totally ridiculous and tone deaf.

        One CEO said something like, “Oh I never hire someone I don’t like. Always surround yourself with employees who do good work AND you get along with.” Um, I don’t hire my coworkers. I get what I get. Also likeability penalizes women more than men, but I guess you don’t have that problem.

        Another bit of advice, “If two employees are having issues with each other, always have it out. It’s healthy and productive.” Well my boss can be terrible, but I’ll be sure to let him know that to his face. Also that passive aggressive coworker next door? She’ll never, ever admit she has a problem with me to my face.

        I especially loved this one, “Always take vacation every year. Vacation time needs to be mandatory.” I love that this guy thinks paid vacation leave is something everyone AND can use freely. I’m pretty sure 100% of workers would take PTO of their own free will if they could. They certainly don’t need to be reminded.

        1. MuseumChick*

          OMG. This guy has no clue. Me being selfish here: PLEASE go to this books club and and (professional) kick some ass and report back to us.

          Off topic: If you haven’t, I highly recommend watching GLOW on Netflix. *Spoilers ahead!*

          Particularly the second season there is a great episode where one of the female wrestlers, because she comes from some money and her husband is a lawyer, is able to push back on a contract each woman has to sign that is pretty unfair to them but none of the others think to have lawyer look at it. As a result she becomes a producer of the wrestling show. The two other producers, both men, make decision without her because you know, they just happened to go to a bar after work and got to talking and she had to go home to her baby and probably wouldn’t have wanted to come any way. She tries to play the game by inviting them over for dinner after work which of course both men blow off.

          1. Specialk9*

            That show certainly didn’t pull it’s punches on gender and race.

            For that contract signing, my read was that it’s that they didn’t think of it – they talked about their awareness that they were being screwed in the contract. It’s just that she was the only one with any *power* because she was the star. The rest of them were disposable. (And it’s not a coincidence that she’s a white blonde bombshell.)

            But even so, she was only a woman, even with that bit of power, and so as you said the two men ignored her and blew her off. Despite both being hugely failure-prone, at least they had dangly bits and bobs.

    3. WellRed*

      Go to the meeting, raise your hand and ask the big boss thoughts on whether he thinks the advice is good for everyone or mainly white men. I am not clear on who you don’t want to spend time with, immediate boss or big boss.

      2. Specialk9*

        I highly recommend this as a very detailed fantasy only, until one has the new job.

        If 2016 taught us anything, it’s that rich white men hate being challenged on their own privilege, or being asked to share the toybox.

    4. Lala*

      It might be worth it just to build more of a working relationship with the big boss. It’ll be easier for him to go to you for things (the way he’s supposed to) if he sees you more, and this is an easy way to do that. Just being seen can be worth the time, especially if the big boss is super into these book club things. Face time is important. Take a notebook and pen so you have something to occupy yourself with if you get bored.

      And I would keep the job hunt going.

    5. AshK413*

      I’m sort of confused. A lot of those reasons don’t appear to have anything to do with attending a book club (at least as an outsider).

      In either case, can you think of an excuse whenever he asks. Like you have to work on X project or whatever. if you feel comfortable being honest, just say you’re not interested in the club.

      1. Snarkus Aurelius*

        Because it’s hard to respect someone who says all the right things yet does absolutely zero to ensure that those right things become a reality for his staff and, in fact, does a few things to make life worse.

        1. Lora*

          I’m guessing that if you said something was a good idea and should be implemented, it would somehow be your job to do all the actual work of implementing it anyways…

        2. Not So NewReader*

          So implementation would become your talking point. You can bring the practical side to the discussion.
          “Okay so if we do this what are the steps involved to start it up?”

          I do agree that going is a great idea. However, it is also something a person has to be “up” for, the on switch has to be in the on position. You know you. If you are going to come out of the meeting feeling more beat down, then do not go. But if you think you can find that kickin’ part of your personality it might be worth your while to go and give pointed inputs. What is the point of sitting around talking about ideas and never using the ideas? There is no point and you are on solid ground with this objection. For myself, there have been times where just knowing I was on solid ground was enough and I was able to walk into the thick of things. (I don’t always feel confident, so I tend to drop back and observe in those instances.)

    6. Nessun*

      Could you suggest books that are different from the majority (white/male/leadership), but in the same genre? Or if you haven’t the power or influence to suggest them, could you read them as a counterpoint to the boss’ choice, and then discuss the alternative point of view? Not suggesting you start a huge conversation, but perhaps it would help them inform their choices on what books to read, or show them you are reading related material (but with a perspective that you value more).

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        Suggestions:
        _The Power of Broke_ by Daymond John (General marketing / managment)
        _The Little Black Book of Success_ by Brown, Haygood, McLean (Success for black women)
        _50 Billion Dollar Boss_ by Porter, Hoffman (Black women entrepreneurs)
        _Daring Greatly_ by Brene’ Brown (Using vulnerability to be a better manager / entrepreneur)
        _Own It_ by Krawcheck – I like it better than Lean In, because I felt Lean In had a ‘be more like men’ subtext.

        I’ve only read Own It and Lean In, but I’ll probably pick up Power of Broke. I usually submit lists to my local library of newer non-white male business books that they don’t have, just to up the representation.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          That said: If this is not your thing, you shouldn’t have to go. These things are only really useful to people who are interested in either following these paths OR making these paths more open to people who aren’t white men (my angle).

        2. A Non E. Mouse*

          I like it better than Lean In, because I felt Lean In had a ‘be more like men’ subtext

          I am glad I wasn’t the only one who didn’t like that book very much. There was such an undercurrent of…I don’t know, privilege?…that I just couldn’t find much useful in it.

          I leave you with this: http://dilbert.com/strip/2015-04-30

          1. Database Developer Dude*

            I’m a man, and I quite agree with the assessment of ‘Lean In’. We men as a group have enough bad habits, society doesn’t need women to pick them up too.

        3. Indigo a la mode*

          Mindset is by Dr. Carol Dweck, and it’s applicable to every part of life, not just leadership. The business leadership chapter does largely feature white men as examples (both good and bad), but she calls that out and discusses it.

          And EVERYONE should read The Power of Habit (it’s by a white man, but not your Typical Leadership Book). It’s basically Life Hacking for Dummies.

    7. Secretary*

      If you get paid to go, I’d say go. It’s true there’s a lot of management advice out there that’s geared toward white men in positions of power, but you can treat the books like a grocery store and take what you like and leave the rest. It also can’t hurt to build the relationship while you’re there.
      Also, if you build good enough rapport while there, you can recommend the Ask A Manager book!

    8. Havarti*

      “…but enough to make me job hunt.”
      Do it! Get out! I’m reading this list and none of it sounds good. Go to the book club and be polite so you can keep earning a paycheck while job hunting. Things will probably not get better here.

    9. AliceW*

      Unless they are going to fire you for not attending a voluntary book club, a simple, “I have no interest in book club and will not be attending” should suffice. Life is too short to be “forced” to do something you really don’t want to.

      1. Decima Dewey*

        The “as a show of good faith” is unsettling to me. As a show of good faith in what regard? For what purpose? I suspect the boss wants to be able to tell their boss that of course people in their department are interested in the “voluntary” book club.

        1. RockyRoad*

          I wasn’t sure about “act of good faith” either. My first thought was that a lot of people weren’t attending and Big Boss was putting pressure on Immediate Boss to get more people to attend to look better.

          Is this something were the book club books are provided for free? If not, could you just say that buying a monthly book just isn’t in your budget?

          If they provide the books, you could just attend without reading it and doodle or write notes on something else while Big Boss is talking. (You said it’s just him talking with no discussion, so he probably wouldn’t “call on” you to discuss the book, and if he did you could just claim you were too busy to read the book this month but came to be supportive, as an act of good faith, whatever.)

    10. emmelemm*

      Unfortunately, I don’t have any good advice. However, I want to say I love your username.

    11. Mike C.*

      It also doesn’t help that just about every single one of these books is just gut-level bullsh!t that lacks any supporting evidence, ignores serious systemic issues and justifies decisions that hurt the vast majority of employees. Much like fad diet books, the authors of these books often completely lack the skills to properly analyze what they see in the field, evaluate evidence, mistake short term variation for “actual results” and do little more than flatter the reader.

      Like in all seriousness, the only good book out there might be, “The @sshole Rule”. There might be others, but this genre is a complete cesspit.

    12. SavannahMiranda*

      FWIW this reminds me sooooo much of the CEO who was insisting all of his employees to come to him for special, personal life coaching sessions where he could overbearingly and condesceningly teach them all about success and reaching your goals.

      Original here: https://www.askamanager.org/2013/04/my-boss-is-requiring-us-to-let-him-be-our-life-coach.html
      And update here: https://www.askamanager.org/2013/10/update-my-boss-is-requiring-us-to-let-him-be-our-life-coach.html

      It did not end well.

      Ayup, get out OP. Aggressively interview and head right on out that door. And know that this kind of massively tone deaf, in bad faith, book clubbery is not normal and not okay.

    13. Not So NewReader*

      A good way to get out of the book club: Tell them to let them know when it is your turn to lead it and then bring one of Alison’s books in.

    14. Anonodoodles*

      I would go to the book club, at least for a while. You might find that once the Big Boss sees you at the event and gets to know you, some of your complaints–all completely valid and frustrating–may lessen. You may be able to at least get other people thinking about things they just take for granted.

      You could also ask questions or throw things out for discussion. When the book says do X but boss or the company does Y, ask about it. “We handled it this way, Y. What might have happened if we had done X? What were the reasons we chose to do Y?” Challenge the assumption of the book that everyone comes from the same background or that everyone is in a job in which people have PTO. Act respectful and (appear) genuinely interested in Boss’s and other people’s opinions. You *might* learn something interesting or you might confirm everything you now feel about Boss and the company.

      But, to be honest, you seem to far gone in your heart from this job for any of this to matter. You should probably put your energy into finding a new job. I wish you the best of luck.

  11. Mockingjay*

    Dear Golden Children of the Office who Telework:

    It is your responsibility to be able to log into the network system from home via VPN. If you cannot access the databases that we use daily for all our work, you should not be allowed to telework.

    The solution is NOT to send ME everything to post for you, or to download and forward, as well as track and reconcile all of these disparate files.

    Signed, your colleague who already has enough work to do without adding yours

    (Yes, I’ve looped in my manager, but nothing’s been done yet. In the interim, sigh…)

    1. CBH*

      That is so frustrating! Have you thought of keeping track of how much time you do this and then present this to your boss. One person’s benefit is causing you to take on additional tasks you didn’t sign up for!

      1. Mockingjay*

        Oh, yes. I have monthly stats. Last month’s total for just document tracking was an all-time high.

        1. CBH*

          wow! If your boss isn’t doing anything can you go to your grandboss or HR. It’s a petty issue but not part of your job and takes a lot of time.

        2. CBH*

          Or simply don’t “check” your email or messages for a while. If asked you can say you were consentrating on task A and was not expecting any correspondence.

    2. hermit crab*

      I’ve so been there! Some people have a lot of learned helplessness around this stuff, and it’s infuriating for everyone else.

    3. WellRed*

      Hit return to sender and and say you don’t have time to do it, and direct them toward whatever resource they need to be able to do that from home. If that’s not possible, the fact that it hit an all time high last month makes it an ideal time to sit down with your manager.

    4. Free Meerkats*

      Cheerfully – “I’ll get to that ass soon as I have a moment.” Then when you have the moment, it may be a couple of hours, do it. But don’t go out of your way to do their job for them (unless of course, that is your job.)

      Of course, think about how you can defend your (lack of) actions before you do this and have load of your time-sensitive stuff lined up when you know this is coming.

    6. Allison*

      Ugh, I feel this so hard! At my old job I had a colleague who would ask me to go into this or that system and pull information for her, because she either didn’t know how to log onto the VPN (and decided she shouldn’t have to learn?) or just didn’t wanna deal with it. She thought I was our industry’s version of a paralegal. I was not.

    8. Lora*

      Your IT sucks and isn’t going to change…

      Why can’t they access things? I hate literally everything about Current IT Department, but they did one thing exactly right and it’s the VPN which works like a charm as soon as you map your home WiFi.

      I would just not do it. They can submit an IT ticket like a person. If IT is overwhelmed in tickets…bummer, but not your problem.

      1. Mockingjay*

        I would classify this as Operator Error/Learned Helplessness. They just don’t want to use the system.

        BTW, our IT Dept. is the best I have ever worked with.

        1. Jadelyn*

          IT could walk on water and turn the water cooler into wine, and there would still be Those People who just don’t want to take the time to learn something new and scary-sounding like “VPN”. It’s really, really not an IT problem.

          1. Lora*

            Then you don’t get to work from home if you can’t VPN.

            Don’t know about it not being an IT problem – sometimes the permissions for things get set weirdly and then the only person in IT who knows how to do that one database quits/gets fired/gets laid off and you’re hosed, or there will be some security rule like No External Connections To Sacred And Holy Database! and then you can’t do your job because public Wifi is full of cooties or whatever.

            1. Thegs*

              Using a VPN should give you an internal IP address, but of course that doesn’t preclude the VPN’s subnet from being blocked from accessing the database. We do similar things here.

              But also yeah, if someone cannot perform their work remotely, regardless of whose fault it is, they should not be allowed to work remotely until the issue is resolved.

              1. Specialk9*

                Our VPN makes Skype audio not work. I have back to back Skype meeting all day, usually that I’m facilitating (remotely). The fact that I then can’t VPN into our Intranet or certain files or databases while on Skype makes me nutty.

                But if someone refused to even learn how to work remotely, whole being allowed to work remotely?! Poppycock.

    9. A tester, not a developer*

      Wow! I thought that was a pretty fundamental part of working from home. I’ve definitely had days where I’ve come into the office ‘off schedule’ because one tool or another I needed to use wasn’t playing nicely with with home computer.

      Here’s hoping your manager acts on it quickly.

    10. LizM*

      Has your manager told you it was part of your job to do this?

      If not, “Sorry, I’m slammed and probably won’t get to this today. You should be able to access the database through the VPN if it needs to be uploaded this afternoon.”

      If they reply that the VPN isn’t working, “Huh, that’s weird. Have you put in a ticket with IT?”

      I have a few coworkers who have a learned helplessness with computers, and usually turn to me as the resident millennial, so I end up using the “Huh, that’s weird,” and redirecting to IT a lot, rather than jumping into providing solutions.

      1. Mockingjay*

        I manage the project document library contents and work tracking tool, but not the site itself. The site is functioning just fine. Plenty of other people remote in from all over the country without issue. We all have standard laptops configured identically with up-to-date software.

        I have three offenders on my team: hapless, helpless, and jerk. I’ve done all of the above suggestions, provided instructions, redirected to IT, even brought in the head of the web development team to conduct a formal training session with live demo “here’s how you do X” *follow mouse clicks on the big screen.*

        Manager is has been busy with setting up new projects (we got more work, yay for us), so this hasn’t been high on his radar. But assignments on this existing project are falling through the cracks because these three won’t use the tracking system to see what they have to do; documents have to be re-edited because they didn’t pull the latest version from the server; and so on. He’s been briefed that their behavior is jeopardizing our ability to make deadlines to our customer. Late stuff is a hot button with the customer, so manager is finally motivated to act. Hopefully this will be addressed next week.

    11. jackers*

      I don’t have quite the same problem but similar. My counterpart works from home and lives out in the sticks. She saves everything to her hard drive rather than the network because it is faster. But then I can’t access files that I need to and have to request them from her and it’s a pain. She constantly says “oh yeah, I need to save those out there for you” but it rarely happens. I’m newish to the role and she’s operated like this for years so creating change has been slow.

    12. Not So NewReader*

      Tell your boss that you will be telling these people NO from now on.

      You have provided your boss with an easy out and as long as you continue to ease the situation no change will happen.

      Dear Golden Children and Boss,
      As the requests for loading information on the the network are at all time highs, I find I cannot do my own work as well as keep up with the inputting. What was once a minor problem has grown to a substantial issue.
      I will be forwarding all your requests for assistance to the boss so that she may redirect that work to someone who is available to help.
      Meanwhile, here again is the instructions for logging in and the contact info for IT if you have any problems.
      Sincerely,
      Your Ever Lovin’ Coworker

      Put your foot down. Seriously.

  12. Anon for this one.*

    No advice needed, just a wild work story. Our boss has a lot more bark than bite, but I can hear him saying this.

    We have a new hire (22 yr old male, fresh out of school) at our home office, where Big Boss is, that came to our office to train yesterday. He told us that he went to the bathroom the other day and Big Boss asked him where he’d been. When he replied I went to the bathroom,” he said that Big Boss said, “You’ve already been today!” We are hopeful he was joking, his sense of humor can be hard to read, but most likely he wasn’t.

    I’ve been here 10 years, and I think Big Boss KNOWS better than to ever pull something like that with me, but in addition, I have Crohn’s Disease, so I would immediately be asking for accommodations.

    1. nep*

      Oh, man. Is there a chance Big Boss was not joking? In which case, it’d be back to the job ads for me.

      1. Anon for this one.*

        He’s demanding and says unreasonable things that he then realizes were unreasonable. I have no doubt he was serious at the moment, but not in the long run.

    3. Thlayli*

      Unless there are other signs of big boss being a crazy person, I would chalk this up to a joke that fell flat.

      1. Anon for this one.*

        He’s demanding and says unreasonable things that he then realizes were unreasonable. I have no doubt he was serious at the moment, but not in the long run.

    5. CupcakeCounter*

      My BIL has absolutely no medical conditions but he poops at least 3 times a day (usually closer to 5) so no one asks him where he is anymore. He’d immediately quit any job that monitored and restricted his bathroom time.
      For what its worth he is also a very fast pooper so his breaks aren’t very long – maybe 2X the length of a normal, male pee break.
      Yes I know way too much about my in-laws pooping habits. It is considered dinner table conversation for them. For some reason they get all squicked out when I start talking about the medical stuff that was the norm for me growing up.

      1. Specialk9*

        Ha, my fire station guys would talk at great length about their jock itch, like AT LENGTH, but somehow when I brought up the my similar experience with yeast itch, it was the grossest thing ever.

    7. Pending*

      “You’ve already been today!”
      “And I liked it so much, I thought I’d do it again.”

    8. Not So NewReader*

      When I was in my 20s people would say things to me that they would never say to an older worker. This boss has no idea how foolish he made himself look to the new hire. Boss is killing his own credibility and does not realize.

    9. Adele*

      This reminds me of an old job at a small , always-in-crisis-mode, management training company. Owner said, “Where’s Lucinda? Why isn’t she answering her phone?” and was told she was in the hospital Emergency Room. His response? “What? They don’t have phone reception in the ER?”

  13. BusyBusyKitty*

    I received my performance review and was rated as not meeting full performance in almost every category. I’m especially frustrated by this because my manager threatened to go in in change the rating of one of my direct reports if I didn’t rate her as exceeds expectations because she “works really hard.”
    How do I respond to this?

      1. SpaceySteph*

        I’m laughing at this because my company totally sent a bunch of us through an 8 week Jack Welch management training course and it was THE. WORST.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Did your manager provide any concrete examples as to how you are not meeting expectations? I would start by asking for details.

    3. Quackeen*

      So, I think you handle these as 2 separate issues.

      1. Ask for SMART goal suggestions on what Meets Expectations and Exceeds Expectations look like. If you’re being rated as Not Meeting Expectations, you need a line of sight between where you currently are and where they want you to be.

      2. Similarly, you need to provide justification and a line of sight for your direct report. If you’re rating her as Meets Expectations, what does it look like to Exceed Expectations in her role and how can she get there? Bring that to your manager and also remind him “working hard is not the same thing as achieving results.”

    4. Rookie Biz Chick*

      That’s so tough! I hope they’ll give examples of what was wrong and how they’d like to see you do better or different.

      The direct report thing, eeeesh. I imagine there’s other difficult stuff going on in that workplace.

      Hoping for the best for you!

    5. Jadelyn*

      Demand specifics and documentation. In what ways are you not meeting full performance? What are some specific incidents that illustrate this? What benchmark are you being judged against? See if your manager can answer any of those questions. Preferably in writing.

      Insist that if you’re doing that badly, your manager needs to work with you to develop concrete goals and benchmarks for the coming year to measure your performance against. If you can get them to do that, then you hold on to that document and you whip it out at next year’s review to demonstrate that you met all the goals you were given.

      Your manager sounds like an ass – sorry you have to deal with that!

    6. Autumnheart*

      Not to be an alarmist, but I would wonder if this was your manager’s opening salvo in “manage you out of a job” by giving you undeservedly poor performance reviews. If they say you’re underperforming but refuse to give you specifics on how to improve, I’d take that as a signal to polish your resume.

      1. Specialk9*

        Well either they’re underserved – in which case read the writing on the wall and start looking for another job hard – or it’s deserved and that’s why boss is inserting himself into the subordinate assessment.

        But either way, it’s writing on the wall that you need to find another position.

    7. Mike C.*

      Go to HR. This is incredibly unethical of your boss to expect and any serious HR rep would have massive problems with this.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Agreed. Your boss is using your eval to manipulate your behavior. In this specific setting here, your boss is removing your authority as a boss. If you cannot write your own evaluations your leadership position is just there for decoration not for real utility. Yes, please talk to HR.

    8. CleverGirl*

      I once had a job where in my very first annual performance review I was given “less than satisfactory/developing” in EVERY category. My manager said I should “cross out the ‘less than satisfactory’ part and focus on ‘developing'” because I was new to the job and it was a slight field change for me, so “of course” I was still developing skills. But like, is HR going to cross out the “less than satisfactory” part? No, they are just going to see that for an entire year I was doing unsatisfactory work. I was upset that no one had raised any specific issues with my work prior to the review and this was the first time I was hearing that I wasn’t doing satisfactory work. It was extremely demoralizing and I quit that job soon after–I got a new job that paid 30% more and had a better schedule, and in my first performance review in the new job I got amazing reviews and “exceeds expectations” comments in every section.

  14. ThatGirl*

    This week has been BANANAPANTS.

    I moved into a customer-facing role about a year ago, and there’s been a lot of flux here since I started; there are supposed to be 4 people on my team but one got moved to a new team, one got fired, so we were down to two temporarily – and my only co-worker got the flu. She’s been out sick all week. I am one person, and although it is slow, it’s still too much for one person. We are getting so many crabby, cranky, angry callers who have no sympathy or are just totally nuts. I went home last night and self-soothed with a beer and 10 Things I Hate About You.

    I do feel like I have now won Customer Service Bingo, though – I had a lady fill out our survey and then proudly tell me she recommended I be fired. (The surveys, I should note, are purely to gauge customer satisfaction and do not affect our performance reviews or anything.) What was my heinous offense? Politely declining to replace an $80 item without any proof of purchase.

    2. Clorinda*

      People who are rude to customer-facing workers are the WORST. A couple of years ago I was at a restaurant with my mother, and the waitress forgot to bring a spoon with my soup, no big deal, I asked for a spoon and she brought one. On the way out of the restaurant, my mother made a point to speak to the manager and explain that she thought the waitress was probably on drugs!!!! So I had to go back, double the tip, and ask the manager to please ignore my mother.

      2. roisin54*

        Those kinds of people are the worst. It’s even more annoying when you’re a public employee, it adds an extra layer of entitlement to their interactions with you. Recently I had one guy write three separate emails to complain about me. My offense? Telling him we can’t do the thing he wants us to do, that said thing isn’t really possible for anyone to do, and that a specific alternative to the thing would be much easier to accomplish. Among the ten-dollar words he used to describe were obstructive, obstinate, and impertinent.

      3. General Ginger*

        Thank you for going back and talking to the manager after. That is just… yikes. I’m sorry.

    3. Sully*

      I’m sorry you have to deal with that! I hate the customer service aspect of my job, but it is 95% over the phone so at least they don’t see me rolling my eyes and gritting my teeth.

      1. Jadelyn*

        Gods bless the mute button. I’m fond of hitting mute while someone is in the middle of going on about something and providing snarky commentary to myself until I have to actually reply.

        1. tangerineRose*

          Be careful. There have been some epic stories about times when the mute button didn’t work.

      2. ThatGirl*

        Mine are all over the phone or online, at least, so I definitely turned around and snarked to my manager about my imminent firing. I definitely have been known to IM people during weird calls, too. I don’t know if I could handle it in person. Phones are not my favorite, and not how I want to spend my days, but it’s an unfortunate necessity right now.

    4. EA in CA*

      We had a member of the public come into one of our offices and demanded that we cancel her cable bill. She was so irate that we couldn’t help her process the cancellation or give her any money back and she demanded to our manager that we must comply and that we should all be fired. HOWEVER! The reason we couldn’t help her was because our company isn’t the cable company. Cable company’s name is on our building because they purchased the naming rights, which is the only link between the two. The lady was in our office screaming for half an hour and it wasn’t until security was escorting her out (and pointed out the clearly visible signage on our front door that this wasn’t cable company) that she finally stopped yelling.

      1. ThatGirl*

        I love when people call and rant about our products for 10 minutes and then I check the SKU and tell them we didn’t make it.

        1. Sully*

          But then I bet they still continue to argue with you even after you prove them wrong, right?
          My coworker likes to “take the path of least resistance,” but I prefer to be correct and not encourage bad behavior on the customer’s part. If I let them get away with it, it just encourages them to do it again to someone else.

    5. Hmmmer Simpson*

      Thank you for the expression “bananapants.” I use the expression “Crazypants” a lot but have been trying to get out of the habit of saying crazy. I also enjoy the phrase “bananas” (as in, “that meeting was bananas!”) so this is such a good combination of my fave methods for describing ridiculousness.

      1. ThatGirl*

        It is one of my favorite words. I told my husband the week was bananapants, and he said “that sounds way more fun than it probably was.”

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I had one that was just the moment in work life that you wait for.
      A lady came in, “Do X”, where X was against company policy. I explained to her that we could not do X and I explained why. What followed was a parade of f-bombs at the top of her lungs. Removing the cuss words she basically said she was going to report me to my district boss.

      My district boss was standing 20 feet away from her watching everything. Calmly, I said, “You are welcome to report as you wish. My district boss is right over there, you can talk to him now if you would like.” She slithered back to where ever she came from. It was a beautiful thing.

    7. RockyRoad*

      I’ve never worked in customer service before, so my only ridiculous customer experience was when I sold one of my college textbooks on eBay and the customer requested that I cancel since they already had the book. I submitted a refund, canceled the postage I’d printed, and sent them a quick note to warn them that the refund probably wouldn’t be instant since I’d already moved all my profits from PayPal the day before and PayPal would need to get the money from my bank account. They became irate about how I was lying and trying to steal their money and they supposedly reported me to the FBI.

      I think customer service is one of the toughest jobs so I try to be as understanding as possible when I’m a customer with a problem (and if they need help at work I jump on it and do whatever I can).

    8. Aphrodite*

      A few days ago I was in our local See’s candy store. As I came in a woman in her sixties (or possibly fifties) was berating and baiting the saleswoman who finally responded with a couple of semi-sarcastic remarks herself. She said nothing I’d consider out of line for a frustrated CS agent, but you could see she was infuriated. As the customer stomped out she stopped and demanded the employee’s name and said, “I’m going to report you.”

      The other woman in the shop and I exchanged glances and I immediately decided that I was going to contact See’s myself when I got home because I especially hate petty injustices. I did. I hate the way so many companies are not just accepting of abuse toward their employees but actually encourage it by not setting standards for customers to complain that require politeness. It’s as if they want to drive the nice people away by catering to the nasty ones. What is this trend? Why does cursing and abuse get customers farther than niceness seems to? Why do managements think that CS agents should be abused? I hate, hate, hate it. (And I am not in any form of customer service.)

      1. Anon for this comment*

        I was on a late-night flight from Atlanta to Baltimore a few years ago, and my seatmate’s carry on luggage was removed for being slightly oversized (it fit on her flight out, apparently, but we were in a slightly smaller plane for this leg) and put into checked luggage. She went ballistic about how she had been mistreated and how they had no right to have touched her property without her permission and so on. They apologized profusely, explained that her earlier flight had probably been on one of their larger planes (to which she went off about how she is not obligated to know the specifics of every plane she rides), they offered a drink coupon…no dice. She was bound and determined to be pissed off, and she spent the whole flight making loud, passive aggressive sighs that made it hard for me to sleep.

        I made sure to note the name of the flight attendant who’d had to bear the brunt of her ire so that I could contact customer service for the airline the next morning to say how diplomatic and calm he’d been in the face of this unreasonable passenger.

  15. Genny*

    Anyone have any experience with job placement companies for permanent positions? Do they add any value or is traditional job hunting a better way to go?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I’ve gotten a couple of jobs through I guess what you’d call “job placement companies.” I prefer to call them “recruiters,” though, because they aren’t working to place you in a job—they are working to find candidates for the hiring companies. Just remember where their incentives are and their paychecks come from. Their job isn’t to place you in a job. Their job is to find candidates and hope one of those candidates gets the job.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      As long as you don’t pay them any money (if you do, it’s likely a scam) and as long as it’s not exclusive (if they claim any kind of exclusivity, it’s likely a scam), just try it as an avenue. That doesn’t stop you from applying to jobs directly.

    3. TheWonderGinger*

      I worked through a employment agency to start as a contractor at my current job, I was hired full time within three months. But on the other hand, one of my friends/coworkers also started as a contractor through the same agency (at a later date than me) and had to wait a year before he was hired full time.

    4. Lora*

      Hit and miss. The good ones were really good and how much they got paid depended on how much I got paid, so it was a tremendous help that they sort of pre-negotiated the pay range for me and pushed for better pay. I think they got more money than I would have gotten myself (female in male dominated industry – we tend to be lowballed). I got some very good pay bumps that I know I wouldn’t have gotten otherwise, and had some jobs presented that I wouldn’t have even considered but turned out to be immensely useful later on in my career.

      The crap ones had no idea how to read a resume, no clue about the field, and constantly pestered me about wholly inappropriate positions.

    5. She's One Crazy Diamond*

      I got my permanent current job because I was a temp through a job placement agency first. It’s a good way to figure out if you like the organization and position before committing, but you don’t get the benefits permanent employees get so it’s not for everyone.

    6. AliceW*

      I have gotten every job I have ever had through a recruiter. I have never sent out resumes for any job except for my first job out of college. Job hunting through a placement agency was very quick and easy for me. They sent me job descriptions of open positions they thought fit my background and I told them which ones I was interested in and they set up the interviews. In a good job market I would never hunt for jobs on my own anymore.

    7. Sunflower*

      The biggest value IMO is you can be a little more upfront about what you’re looking for and non-negotiables. Especially with salary, most of them are incredibly upfront with salary expectations and won’t waste your time. But if you want a job where let’s say, telecommuting is a must, you can be more upfront at the early stages with an outside recruiter as opposed to in house for the job where you might need to wait for a later stage interview to bring it up.

      1. Specialk9*

        Yeah for some reason jobs will tell *recruiters* the salary range, but not applicants. Good recruiters dealing with seasoned professionals will just state the salary upfront, which saves ever so much time and effort all around.

    8. Mrs. Picklesby*

      I think it will depend a lot on your industry and location. I’m near New Orleans, and there are tons of jobs here and in the surrounding metro area. There are between 30-40 employment firms here that focus on different industries. On the other hand, one of my relatives lives in central Mississippi, where she says there are only 1-2 placement firms because there isn’t much available.

      My situation is similar to AliceW. I’ve been in the legal field for 99% of my 25 years of working. My first job came through my high school (anyone remember Cooperative Office Education as a class?), and after that I connected with staffing agencies that specialized in legal placement. They’ve helped to place me with a solo practitioner, a small specialized law office, and a giant full-service firm. My recruiters even keep in touch after placement and send notices of other opportunities.

      I’m a BIG fan of placement companies!

    9. Chaordic One*

      While I’ve had some great experiences while working as a temp, I’ve never had any luck with placement agencies for permanent work. All of the agencies had contingency clauses that if you went to work permanently at a company that you had previously temped at within a six-month period the employer would have to pay the agency a “finder’s fee” and none of the employers I worked for as a temp wanted to pay it.

      In one case, I did get a call exactly six months later from a place I had temped at, but by then I had moved on and found a permanent position.

    10. I'm A Little Teapot*

      if you mean recruiters, in my industry, they’re the norm. But it depends on the industry and sometimes location.

  16. MuseumChick*

    I’m considering leaving my field and it is breaking my heart. I love working in museums but the lack of growth (you basically have to move anytime you want position), low pay, limited benefits, ect. are becoming to much.

    1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

      I’m in the same boat as you. The (closely related) library world is the same thing. I’ve hit a wall professionally, and unlike some of my younger coworkers, can’t just pick up and become a library director somewhere in Idaho or Tennessee if I wanted to. (And I don’t want to–I love where I live more than anything, and my family is all here.)
      I’m sorry I can only offer commiseration and not advice!

      1. MuseumChick*

        Yes, libraries have the same issue. I knew what I was getting into when I started in this field. It’s my passion. But I have to accept the reality money does make life easier in some ways. Honestly, if it wasn’t for the absurd amount of emotional labor, I might be able to hold out but I’m tired of having to give way on best practices just so I don’t upset a long time volunteer or someone up the food chain who knows nothing about museum work.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          Really different issues there – is there *any* chance you can find something else in your field and location, just to check whether your frustration at the emotional labor *in that job* is coloring your view of the field?

    3. mkt*

      I’m sorry to hear your struggle.
      On the flipside, I do think that money, opportunity for growth/learning, benefits, etc do really help to accept working in a field that you may not otherwise love. Being happy and secure in all those ways makes me better able to thrive outside of work. So, here’s hoping you can find similar type of middle ground of work in something that you may not be passionate about, but can help fuel your life satisfaction in other ways.

      1. MuseumChick*

        Some kinds of records management, either at a university (like a registrar for example) or corporate archive work.

        1. Lora*

          Have worked a handful of jobs that had corporate libraries. They paid better than nonprofit, for sure. And everyone showed up at 9 and went home by 4. As I understand it, it was mostly helping people set up automatic article delivery for certain things, or the occasional “quick! I need to know everything there is to know about (weird odd disease) by Wednesday!”

          We have a lot (A LOT. SO MUCH.) cGDP records management, which would require additional training but the company typically pays for it. Normally they pick people with a QA background but my impression is that candidates are pretty thin on the ground at the moment and there are places which would be willing to train new folks.

    5. I feel you*

      In the museum field as well. I’ve been thinking a bit about switching fields, though I am not even sure what fields to look into/how my skills can be transferable….

    6. Climber*

      I am in academia and it’s the same thing. Low pay, insane hours, no health insurance, no set schedule, no vacation. If you really want full time it’s be ready to move to rural Texas and then find out the contract was 9 months only. I just found out yesterday that my cash cow Fall job doesn’t have enough classes to offer me any so I’m losing half my income for Fall.
      I’m already taking classes to move to another profession. I still have years to go but it feels much better to be working on a way out. I LOVE teaching, but I just can’t anymore.
      I have volunteered heavily in museums and have seen the struggle of the workers there. Good luck with moving on. Once you get a private sector job you can join a museum board and still be MuseumChick.

      1. The Other CC*

        “Once you get a private sector job you can join a museum board and still be MuseumChick.”
        This.

        Not making your full-time living in a particular field doesn’t mean that you love that field any less. And in fact, if you go do something that will make you more money, you can then give money to your old organization and support their work in another way (perhaps by creating a fully funded “MuseumChick Curatorship” position so whoever replaces you has better pay and benefits than you did? At least that’s my plan – to make a ton of money and then establish the “The Other CC Teapot Designer Fellowship” at Old Job)

        1. DustIsAnOccupationalHazard*

          Yeah, the utter joy I felt at being able to give money to my Museum (former workplace), without handholding of the volunteers really was a thing. And I love the volunteers! I just hated being told that I shouldn’t lift heavy things, “because you haven’t had your babies yet.” Note: I was not pregnant.

          1. The Other CC*

            That is so utterly bonkers (and rude!) but it sounds exactly like something I can imagine some of our more…filter-less volunteers saying.

      2. Lady Jay*

        Out of curiosity, what corner of academia are you in, and what are you moving into? I always find these stories so interesting.

        1. Climber*

          LAte to the party but I was instructor level teaching in Coms/Film. So I have an MA in the field but don’t want to pursue a PhD because it doesn’t really help job prospects. I’ve worked community college and university level. It’s just tough, under valued, becoming more customer service (at one school 60% of my standing was based on student reviews which are shown to be biased towards women and minorities).
          I am going into Speech Pathology. I was always interested but wasn’t brave enough when I was younger (science scared me, too hard). But I’m taking Post Bacc Classes now and hopefully in a grad program by 2020 for another couple years. And so far I am finding I am finding everything FASCINATING. It’s good to be going into a field that is growing and pays well AND helps people.
          Plus, I would have a number of skills that would be valued during the zombie apocalypse. Not much call for film analysis in the rebuilding phase. :)

    7. The Other CC*

      Hi there! I am going through the same mourning process of leaving my corner of the arts, which has all the same problems you cited. I had a little crying spell on the couch the other day about it, actually. But I’ve decided that sacrificing giving up savings for retirement, buying a house, having kids, staying near family, etc. is not worth it to follow my dream anymore. It’s weird, but it feels like a breakup of a really bad relationship! And it is a grief process with a lot of feels, at least for me, since I started in this career back in high school and all my professional development has been in this field. But exploring other work outside of my niche showed me that I was employable in other fields, and also that other work could be interesting, fulfilling, and pay more than my old job. Perhaps explore another field you’re interested in via side hustle or volunteering to get your feet wet?

      I hope you’re able to figure out what’s best for you and your goals and find the next open door soon <3

      1. Specialk9*

        It sounds weird to say to a stranger, but I’m so proud of you. It’s really hard to make that kind of decision, but you really do need to take care of yourself in this world. Freedom opens doors.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        I am liking your answer here TOCC.
        I had a job that I absolutely loved and I had to leave it. Gosh, you would think I was having the job surgically removed for the amount of emotions I felt.

        It caused me to step back and think about what I was doing. I was way too invested in that job. I realized I needed to be more detached from the job and get more connected to my life goals. It was hard, but I do think that what finally tipped the scales was my own success at starting other life long goals and working on those goals. Once I saw my new plan starting to work out (this was a matter of months) I started gaining a fresh perspective that I never had before. Imagine my surprise when I figured out that maybe Favorite Job was not good for me in ways that I had been ignoring.
        It was years later I ran into a favorite cohort from that job. She added to my resolve on this whole situation by telling me about things going on at that place that were Not Good. My rose colored glasses were off and I never put them on again.

        This is all to say, what breaks our hearts today may look totally different in years to come. Time can be very kind. I’d like to encourage you to follow your instincts here.

        1. CopperBoom*

          So needed to hear this! I’m interviewing next week for a job that aligns with my career goals, but it would mean leaving my beloved workplace. I love my place of employment, the students, my coworkers, etc., but my position is not challenging (it’s entry level, and I was told at my interview that I would outgrow it). I’m a wreck just at the possibility of leaving my kiddos, but I know I’m not happy in this role, so it is time to move on. Glad to hear about your experience!

    8. DustIsAnOccupationalHazard*

      Oh! It me! I left an energetic, high-performing, dysfunctional but beloved museum a year ago, and I sooooooo miss the GLAM world, but working there was a luxury I couldn’t afford anymore. I switched to corporate records management, coming out of being a Collections Manager, and genuinely enjoy it. And I can continue complaining about climate control…

      1. DustIsAnOccupationalHazard*

        Also, if anyone has questions about records management as a field or how museum experience translates, I fricking love talking about it!

          1. DustIsAnOccupationalHazard*

            I’m actually thrilled you’re interested—-your posts have really spoken to me over the years! And I want to hear your most bizarre museum stories. At my interview, they were like, “Oh, why would you want to quit working at a museum?!?” I responded with the tale of the time I opened a Rubbermaid tub with a huge Nazi flag jammed into there. Like, sometimes you want to open a box without thinking, “Is there going to be a war trophy or a bag of hair in here?”

            1. MuseumChick*

              Oh, that a tough question. Hmmm, I’ve gotten plenty of “Is the fire real?” type questions. I’ve have *knock on wood* never found any body parts but I know that is not an uncommon occurrence in this line of work.

              Have you ever watch Ask A Slave on youtube? It funny no matter what but when you have worked at a museum it’s even better.

              1. MuseAnne*

                Oooh! I found a body part!

                I’m also curious to hear about records management. I love my job, and am lucky to have one I can live on, but the other parts of it are getting to me.

                2. MuseAnne*

                  First week of the job, I’m exploring the collection (first professional staff in decades, so there’s no real orientation) and there’s this old white cardboard box labeled “human hand.” Containing a naturally mummified, surgically removed human hand (and partial forearm). Cue denial followed by panicked research. It’s cataloged and everything, including a partial origin story. Non-NAGPRA, though. I have since built it a beautiful archival, cavity mount box. With lid. Clearly labeled.

                  ….. I hope you find a place that makes you happy. This is a rough field to get into and stay in. I feel really lucky where I’m at, but it’s still not perfect. I’ve been in the field for about 13 years now, and I see the struggle all over.

      2. MuseumChick*

        I’ve been thinking of looking for a corporate records management job. I think I would need to get a MILS or similar degree but it would be worth it, I am as in a collections management/registrar/curator role.

        1. DustIsAnOccupationalHazard*

          Honestly, I just slid right over—I don’t even have any formal museum training (Economics major). I work for a midsized utility company and I really enjoy the satisfaction of turning a pile of….stuff (papers, binders, manuals, microfilm) into usable information. There’s a pivot toward electronic data, but the organizational parts carry through. I’ve found that my intake/cataloging process from the museum of assessing whether this artifact/information is useful for the public or the future or is actually irrelevant is a huge asset. And my researching itch gets scratched looking for parent company or merger histories.

          In practical talk, I make $45,000, which is not huge, but is 3 times what I was making at the museum and my benefits A. EXIST! and B. are dope! I think most records managers make a significant amount more? I’ve put my email in the name/link area, if you want more details.

          1. selina kyle*

            I’d love to get involved in that type of work (information organization, etc) – would you be willing to expand on how you got into that field of work?

            1. DustIsAnOccupationalHazard*

              Brace yourself for an extremely AaM response: I had a really good cover letter that dug into how my skills, especially from museum work, applied into records and information management! I talked about how I get real satisfaction from organizing things and cataloging artifacts taught me about the importance of accuracy for stuff that would be needed for a long period of time.

          2. Anonymous75*

            Are you in a very urban area? I wonder how many records management jobs are in my area, but I think it’s something I would enjoy and would love to know more about. You mentioned a bit about taking a pile of stuff and organizing it. Are their other aspects, like disposing of outdated material, creating an inventory list or database record of what you organized, etc? My background is libraries.

            1. DustIsAnOccupationalHazard*

              I’m in Northwest Indiana, about an hour outside Chicago. Most counties and government bodies have records managers, what with land titles and deeds, taxes, all that information that goes back for decades and is still used.
              Hoo boy, this might get long.
              We have a records repository software, which streamlines the database/inventory work. I looooooooooooooooooove doing annual destruction, because I’m also the sort of person who gets a boost from culling my closet and sending it to Goodwill. We have a retention schedule, which lays out the business/regulatory requirements for how long to keep each type of record (invoices get kept so long for tax reasons, for example; project files get kept through the end of the project plus so many years), so once a record hits it’s retention requirement, we reach out to the department which created it to approve it for destruction, and destroy it from there.
              We also work really closely with the legal department for discovery requests or contract review.

              1. DustIsAnOccupationalHazard*

                I got a real thrill out of tracking which companies acquired a smaller company over the past hundred years, to see who was actually responsible for cleaning up a site, which saved the company a few million dollars. Also, our department set up rules for email, how it gets handled (PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, IF IT’S IMPORTANT SAVE IT SOMEWHERE THAT IS NOT YOUR INBOX), advises when we can delete stuff off of servers, how to let people access digital content without being able to edit it.
                If you’re really curious and want to dig into the field, do some research into GDPR. It absolutely is changing how records and information management works.

        2. Algae*

          You may be able to look into getting a CRIM (Certification in Records and Information Management) without going back for your MLIS. I’d check into that.

          I work in RM for a HIGHLY regulated industry and it does help to be able to push back on people that just want things done “however” when we have regulations we can point to. I like doing RM in regulated industries because what to keep/how long/how to keep is so clearly laid out.

    9. Charlotte Gray*

      I got out of the orchestra side 2 years ago (one year in my current job) for the same reason. I really struggled with “How do you apply for a job when you don’t feel passionate about the subject matter?!” but I’m here to tell you that you have transferable skills and there are non-profits that pay better than the arts if you want to stay mission-based. People at my city-wide association office complain about the pay (so maybe I won’t be happy about it in a few years, but for now it’s more than fine) but it’s $12k more than I made at either of my arts jobs with the same position title (manager). Do you have a passing familiarity with fund development or grants? A visual arts background that you could use in a marketing department?

    10. Marion the Librarian*

      Not much more to add, just that I am also in the same boat. Archivist/Librarian for most of my professional life and tired of the low pay and lack of professional development. I’ve done two major moves for jobs and I can’t do it anymore. I’ve started putting out feelers in other fields and had some interviews, which was exciting! I ultimately passed on the positions for various reasons, but it was helpful to know I can make the transition to other work. I would also agree to look into volunteering or a side hustle to expand your network.

      It does feel like I’m ending a significant relationship because my priorities have changed. And that is so painful because my passion is still there.

    11. BahahaBlackSheep*

      I’m in a similar spot in your sister industry! I work at a zoo. I volunteered in high school, worked summer camp in college and am now a seasonal staff member in the office I once volunteered in. I love the zoo so much and I credit it with a lot my personal development and interests. But I am almost done with grad school and only working here seasonally isn’t going to cut it anymore and I’ve been wrestling with the likelihood that I’m going to have to go elsewhere in order to reach longterm fulfillment with my career. I’ve basically been hanging around seasonally as a foot in the door to apply for permanent, full time positions, but those don’t pop up often in my department and when they do they get 300+ applicants for one position and I think I’m nearly done hanging around :(

    12. Specialk9*

      I think it’s a very good idea to switch careers, even if you will likely have lots of feelings.

      Money isn’t happiness, but money sure fixes so many problems, and gives you so much freedom. ESPECIALLY as a woman.

      And good benefits have kept me from losing everything when I got sick.

      They’re worth pursuing. There are joys in so many jobs and careers.

      1. Specialk9*

        To follow up, the traits of people I see succeed in corporate positions:

        -Organized and follow through / follow up (this is SO key)

        -Personable enough to work with people across the org

        -Interested in learning and taking on new things (without overcommitting and dropping prior work)

        -Reliable – they can be trusted to do what they say or alert mgrs about a problem

        I suspect that all of those are traits of both museum workers and librarians.

    13. Dr. Vanessa Poseidon*

      Oh, I feel ya. It’s not exactly the same, but a little over a year ago, I abandoned plans to enter the museum field. I did a PhD in art history and along the way realized I liked that side of things more than the academic side, so I did a bunch of museum internships, fellowships, freelance work, etc. I went through a grueling job search for 18 months and then kinda just decided that I needed to give up and do something else. Making that decision was tough, because I was a really competitive applicant, got to the final stage of several searches, and probably would have ended up with something if I had kept trying, but I also knew that that was how the field is and how the rest of my working life would be…and I just couldn’t see putting myself through multi-year job searches and cross country moves every time I wanted to move up.

      Anyway, I’m in the corporate world now. My job is far from perfect, and I’m still very much feeling out my new field, but I can’t really say I regret switching paths. I still understand the heartbreak, though.

  17. MassholeMarketer*

    After months of job searching, I FINALLY have two places that seem to be extremely interested in me!

    One place wants to reorganize the job description based on my qualifications. I’ve never had anyone THAT interested in me.

    The second place I interviewed with on Tuesday and they already got back to me about a second interview! The manager is on vacation next week but said she wanted to follow up with me before she left. So sweet – I’m really hoping I get this one!

    Does anyone have any advice when it comes to emailing prospective employers? Wednesday I received an email from the first company about doing a Skype interview sometime next week. This would be my second interview with them. I answered within an hour but haven’t heard back since. Should I email them again to make sure they received my email?

    1. mkt*

      How exciting!
      I would wait until early next week, maybe Tuesday, before reaching out again. And provide your availability to confirm on interview, that sort of thing. Good luck!

    2. I can't even*

      I personally would wait until Monday; a lot of times people do scheduling for the week at the beginning of that week. If you still don’t hear back on Monday, a polite check in is probably fine – I usually like to put some of the onus on my self in the form of “I want to make sure this interview is my top priority this week”, which demonstrates commitment on your end but also that you have your own week to plan. Good luck!

    3. Specialk9*

      That’s awesome! I’ve never had anyone rewrite a job description for me either. That’s a big deal!

      Good luck. Go back through the archives here, and Alison’s ebook on interviewing, it’ll help you fill the time and make you feel prepared.

  18. Nervous Accountant*

    Evaluations done and over with. No surprises. Maybe I need to seriously consider the Summers Eve method of asking for a raise LOL (link in reply in case anyone’s interested).

    Oh and I didn’t sit in on new guys eval that I was so torn up about lol…my mgr made that decision before I even mentioned it for various reasons. We collaborated on the written review and he had the conversation with him. Our boss also sat in on it at the very end.

    Turns out he was perfectly fine with manager, but gave boss a hard time. Boss finds him to be a sexist creep. I couldn’t put my finger on it before but it was spot on.
    I found out that he was complaining about how I don’t talk to him anymore.
    he aggressively hits on nearly all the females here (ugh) and his past annoying/aggressive behavior w me —I’m even more glad I made the right decision.

        1. Nervous Accountant*

          Oh we all make so many inappropriate-for-this-forum jokes at work about this. Just between me and 1-2 close people.

    2. Thosetaxreturnswontfilethemselves*

      Oh yuck – yuck – yuck

      I hate your co-worker even more now, like he’s entitled to you being more than professionally courteous to him. The hitting on is extra creepy. I don’t understand how an associate can give “the boss (partner)” a hard time! Can ya’ll just collude to assign him only the most devastatingly horrible assignments until he quits?

      Also – the easiest way to get a raise is to jump to industry. I got a *literal* 50% bump when I left.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        I wanna say it’s bc he’s a sexist POS. And yeah I can’t stand him, he doesn’t report to me and I have no power over his $$ so I will literally pretend he doesn’t exist. I’ve been more than fair with him.

        1. Thosetaxreturnswontfilethemselves*

          I’ve been reading along, and with the new color you’ve provided, I don’t know how you were so civil for so long. He would have been iced out a LONG time ago if he worked on any of the teams my friends manage.

      1. Goya de la Mancha*

        To be fair, I think they were trying to go along the lines of the Secret deodorant commercials talking about stress sweat and not wanting to be sweaty/stinky when talking to your supervisor.

  19. B*

    I did a Skype interview the other day for a firm based in a different country. We have had HORRIBLE heatwaves here the last couple of weeks . When I did the interview, it was 36 degrees outside and about 42 degrees in my apartment because we don’t really have air conditioning. I told them this in the early small talk we made before starting.

    I just got some feedback that I was “unprofessional” because on a couple of occasions during the 40 minute long interview I had a couple of sips of water from a glass of water next to my computer on the table, and I was holding a band-held fan that you couldn’t see much off to try and keep my face cool and not bright red.

    Am I crazy or are they? Like, I am glad they don’t want to hire me now because they are clearly unreasonable, but surely, if someone is in 35+ degree weather, the hill to die on is not them trying to keep their face cool and have the occasional sip of water….

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I can maybe see the fan thing being flagged as unprofessional, but regardless of the temps, I wouldn’t fault anyone for sipping water during an interview. You’re talking a lot and it makes perfect sense that you might need a drink.

      1. B*

        I usually wouldn’t and would suck it up if it was just on the warm side, but with the weather being THAT hot and having to close all the windows to have a quiet environment, I was dying lol, and it was either the fan or be a sweaty, beetroot faced mess, which I thought would reflect even worse on me.

        1. B*

          No, it was a very quiet handheld one. Very normal in my country of origin, they don’t make any sound.

      3. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

        42 degrees Celsius is pretty close to 110 degrees Fahrenheit. A fan is not weird or unprofessional at those temperatures. I disagree with the commenters above. The employer in question here is absolutely out of their mind and I think you dodged a bullet, B.

        1. B*

          That’s the thing – if it was 28 degrees, I’d suck up being a bit uncomfortable. But at 42, I was not a bit uncomfortable, I was EXTREMELY uncomfortable and my face going to get read and sweaty if I didn’t try and keep it cool. I don’t know if I am being a bit defensive, but I am sitting here thinking “at 42 degrees, SURELY, you’d understand someone trying to keep some cool air on their face”.

          1. Totally Minnie*

            Does the country you’re interviewing in use Celsius or Fahrenheit to measure temperature? If the people you were interviewing with are more familiar with Fahrenheit numbers, they might not have had a context for how hot 42 degrees actually is.

    2. Annie Moose*

      I can’t imagine how the occasional sip of water would be unprofessional! Even if it wasn’t that hot, it seems perfectly reasonable that in 40 minutes of talking, you might want to drink something.

      2. Specialk9*

        Yeah that’s bonkers. BULLET DODGED.

        As in interviewer, I always offer water, because most people are nervous and water helps with dry throat. And if you were coming in, you’d have A/C so a fan seems reasonable – and if for some reason A/C was broken we’d definitely have fans going!

        Next time, I recommend you sit on an ice pack, and put a bottle full of ice water between your legs (if not visible) up against your femoral artery. (So against your underwear.) That’ll cool your core down.

    3. Corky's Wife Bonnie*

      I don’t think you were unprofessional. If you had interviewed in person, they would likely offer you a beverage anyway so what’s the difference between that and your interview on Skype? They are being unreasonable. Stay cool!

    4. Myrin*

      I can kinda see the fan as, well, not unprofessional exactly but unusual enough that it would stand out (unless the fan specifically was also mentioned in your “early small talk”, not just the general heat) but drinking water? This might be cultural but I’ve been actively offered something to drink at every job interview I’ve ever been at, so there’s that.

    6. LilySparrow*

      Um, 42 degrees is well in the range of temperature where healthy, typically abled people can have serious health issues.

      I’d consider it far more “unprofessional” for you to pass out or start talking loopy from heatstroke.

      They are totally out of line. You do not want to work for anyone with such fundamental disregard for basic safety for their workers.

      FWIW, I live in a hot climate, and it’s normal practice for schools or offices to close if they can’t cool the building to liveable temperatures. But then again, air conditioning is standard here, so the lack of it would be a temporary “something is broken” situation.

    7. Herder of Teenaged Cats*

      It could be a cultural thing, too. For instance, in Japan, it’s considered extremely rude to drink something during an interview or meeting or lesson. Fanning yourself can be okay in certain situations, but it can also come off as rude. For me, these are two cultural differences that I have had a real hard time adjusting to as a lifelong desert-dweller–when I’m lecturing, I really want to drink water,and when I’m hot, I want to do what it takes to cool myself down.

      1. Mad Baggins*

        I was thinking this as well. I would absolutely not fan myself in an interview, and refrain from drinking water if at all possible (but sounds like it was impossible in this circumstance)(also I think it’s ridiculous to judge someone for drinking water in an interview)

    8. Laura H.*

      Omg no,

      That’s not unprofessional at all. Gulping down your water- maybe. But discreet sips? I say reasonable.

    9. LGC*

      So – um…first things first, I would have done the interview somewhere else or sometime else, if I were in your position. 42C is roughly 107F – which sounds pretty dangerous. (I’m hoping things have cooled off for you by now!)

      That said, the only way I can see their feedback making any sense is if the role relies heavily on looking as polished as possible. But the issue there isn’t that you had a fan and were drinking water – it’s that you were basically doing an interview from a sauna.

      But yeah, they’re REALLY crazy.

      1. B*

        I didn’t really have anywhere else I could do the interview – the lack of AC is a thing for the whole country, and anywhere with it will be a public space like a shopping centre or a cafe, with lots of noise and not to mention weird and uncomfortable for me. The heatwave has also been going on for nearly 2 weeks now with another week coming. There wasn’t much I could do.

    10. Nancie*

      If you specifically told them at the beginning of the interview that it was 42c in your apartment, and they’re familiar with Celsius, they’re jerks.

      If you have a decent suspicion that they’re not familiar with Celsius, it might be worth while to send back a quick “sorry, of course I wouldn’t usually use a fan during an interview, but as I’d mentioned it was 42c (107f) in my home.”

      I wouldn’t even mention the water. Unless there is a strong cultural thing against casually drinking during an interview and you’re willing to deal with that, consider it a bullet dodged.

    11. a heather*

      I have had an entire glass of water during an in-person interview. (And got the job.) That’s bull.

    12. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I mean, the last interview I was on I had an allergy attack that resulted in me coughing uncontrollably and required water to calm down. They hired me.

    13. WorkerBea*

      WTH? When I go to in person interviews they OFFER me water or coffee, and I personally wouldn’t begrudgee anyone a fan in the heat. You dodged a bullet.

    14. Jennifer Thneed*

      Hah! I judge interviewers poorly when they don’t offer me something to drink. We’re about to TALK for an hour. Of course we need water to sip so our mouths don’t dry out.

      They’re crazy, not you.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I have a similar thing that I do. If employers do not allow employees to drink water on the job then they go on to my “No, Not Ever” list. Prolonged dehydration can trigger so many problems. If an employer does not understand this basic concept, I am not willing to work for them.

        So, OP, they would have had you working in an office that probably did not have AC and you would not be allowed to have water. They showed you who they are and how they react. No job is worth ruining your health over.

    15. only acting normal*

      Reeks of “B is actually more suitable than the candidate we want to hire (for biased reasons), so we will pick on completely irrelevant things to use as reasons to reject B.”

  20. Just1L*

    I volunteer on a board for a nonprofit industry trade organization. We are looking to get an intern for maybe 10-15 hours a week to assist with social media, recruitment of new members, a little research and help on site at events. As a nonprofit we are unable to pay the intern and would like to work with a local college or university and offer the position as a for credit internship.
    I am not sure where to begin. I am not worried about interest in this as we are a very popular industry that people really want to break into. It’s more a matter of I don’t work in HR and need help setting it up. This internship will offer the candidate a lot of exposure and face time with our members, and could very easily parlay into a fulltime job offer after graduation. Many of our members are hiring managers and we are known for our networking and helping our own.
    Any advice on what area/department of the schools I should reach out to would be appreciated. And any other advice on internships would be most welcome. Thank you in advance!!!!

    1. Hey-eh*

      Most universities will have a Career Counselling office. You can start there. Also, universities have like a bazillion clubs and organizations. There are likely one or two that are similar to your nonprofit’s mission that you can reach out to and chat with. They may have members that are interested. If the universities don’t have a credit internship program you may still be able to find someone (or two people) who would be willing to volunteer to build their resume.

      1. AnotherJill*

        Yes, this. It would be pretty rare these days for a college or university to not have an office dealing specifically with internships.

    3. Artemesia*

      I would be cultivating contacts in the department of the local college that trains students in your field. Are there programs in business especially non-profit business, or HR, or leadership? Sometimes if you contact the department head, they will send you to a faculty member who facilitates internships or there may actually be an internship coordinator. Once you build these relationships you will be able to get good interns, but first you need to clarify with someone who manages interns what they are looking for in experiences and what you need and then help them provide appropriate intern feedback during the first experience. Make sure you stress the academic growth components as well as networking connections. The coordinator or faculty member may know particular students adept in social media or who are hoping for a future role in event planning and have just the right person. ONce you find the right connection they will be eager to work with you.

    4. Washi*

      We always had a good amount of traffic from posting on Idealist, if you’re willing to pay a small fee.

    5. Jules the 3rd*

      Definitely Career Counseling. Make sure you’re reaching out to more than just the first tier schools, such as HBCUs in your area.

      1. disney+coffee*

        I would definitely recommend reaching out to Career Counseling. However, my college’s career center was pretty awful so you should probably consider other methods as well. I would reach out to the Communications, English, and Political Science/International Affairs departments, if they’re at the school. There’s probably some department coordinator who can send out information to their students (at least that’s what my dept. coordinate did for us in terms of internships).
        I was an intern at a non-profit in college and I just found the position by searching for “non-profit internships near ___ university” online. Even posting an application on your website and social media would probably generate some traffic as well especially if you’re in an area with a lot of college students.

        1. disney+coffee*

          (also sorry that I replied to another reply, I meant to reply to the main post. I totally wasn’t paying enough attention and hit the wrong button!)

  21. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

    A resume was recently submitted to us for a librarian position, and one of the bullet points listed under a previous job was “Provide extreme customer service to library patrons.”

    Um. What is “extreme customer service”? In a public library setting, would that mean challenging a disorderly patron to a duel? Or giving a troubled patron a box of chocolates and a massive hug? I can’t even imagine.

    1. Myrin*

      That’s hilarious.
      Could it have been some kind of typo/autocorrect kind of situation, like “external customer service” or similar? I much prefer imagining them hiking up the shelves at high speed, though.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Or doing parkour over the shelves while taking out the exact books being asked for in mid-flip.

        1. Nancie*

          Not gonna lie, that would impress me. I’d have to offer to tip them for an excellent performance.

    3. Murphy*

      HAHA! If that’s what they meant to say and it wasn’t a typo, maybe they mean a lot of hand holding? A lot of “basically you have to do everything for them?” Otherwise, I have no clue.

      I hope it’s dueling though.

    4. Lemon Sherbet*

      I think they probably were going for “superior” and just didn’t use the right word.

    5. MuseumChick*

      You know, with the level of emotional labor expect from those who work in libraries, museums, archives, etc “Extreme Customer Service” is a pretty accurate description, lol.

      If every thing else on the resume was good I would probably interview this person.

      1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

        The rest of the resume was average overall, and we got several above average resumes, so sadly, we probably won’t interview him and get to find out. (Which really is too bad, because I’m VERY curious and am laughing out loud at many of the comments here)

        1. MuseumChick*

          Ah, that is unfortunate. If his resume was in the above average category I would totally interview him.

      2. Treecat*

        Ugh, right?

        I know I’m the worst but when I get a student in on week 8/10 in the quarter crying that they’ve not yet started their final paper I’m like “well, sucks for you, doesn’t it!”

        But no I don’t get to say that, so I grit my teeth, put on my least rictus-like smile, and do my best to help them, all while imagining the giant martini I’m going to drink when I get home.

    6. Multitudinous*

      Parkour across the circ desk to help little old ladies with stacks of books.
      Have book cart street races to transport ILLs.
      Let patrons bungee jump from the top of the stacks to reach their holds.

    7. Decima Dewey*

      Pressing books or DVDs on a patron minding their own business until they either check the stuff out or run screaming out of the building?

      1. AnotherJill*

        Maybe he’s full-on-Oprah. Here’s a book for you! And a book for you! And a book for you!

    9. JeanB in NC*

      I used to put “extreme organizational skills” on my resume. I actually really believe that and it got people asking questions. I don’t do it anymore though.

    10. WellRed*

      I bet it wasn’t a typo, just more of that weird rock star/ninja language. I saw some sort of office manager job that called for “maniacal attention to detail.”

    11. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      I’m imagining someone jumping out from between the stacks yelling in their loud overly dramatic cheesy school assembly motivational speaker voice “Let meeee find youuuuu the book that will chaynge your life foreverrrrr!”

    12. Logan*

      This sounds like something an acquaintance of mine would say (any chance the applicant’s initials are EZ?)

      He’s not very polished in a written format, but I do know that he goes overboard helping out library patrons, especially in comparison to other employees. Giving tours of the library, or answering questions about the local community (outside the library), or… you name it, he’ll find a way to help you. I helped him rewrite his resume, and that was one of the lines, but maybe the changes didn’t propagate to all versions…

    13. Middle School Teacher*

      Throwing books at them, playing loud music, and skateboarding? To the extreme!!!!

    14. Falling Diphthong*

      I’d be inclined to give them an interview just to find out.

      In real life, a political race in Virginia now involves Bigfoot erotica. This is not a time in our nation’s history to assume that weird things must just be typos.

      1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

        That just put a horrible, horrible visual in my head.

        I’m really curious, also. The way our luck is going with filling this position, it would not surprise me if our top candidates all either flake or are terrible and we have to circle back to this person eventually!

    16. Treecat*

      I was thinking more like x-games extreme… so customer service while rail grinding on a skateboard, or something.

      Now I’d work the ref desk more if I got to see that kind of thing!

  22. Emma*

    I didn’t get the job (that I was specifically asked to apply for & the application/interview process took nine entire weeks) and work this past week has been a struggle & a half. I’m so tempted to quit even though I don’t have another job lined up (or enough savings to support myself unless I take money out of my IRA). I’d love some good vibes!

    1. nep*

      So sorry to hear that, Emma. That is so tough to take.
      Sending the best vibes I can conjure. All the best in your search.

    2. CBE*

      That’s happened to me a couple times, and it’s the worst! When someone comes to you and says “You should apply for this job, it would be perfect for you!” and you go through the whole process and don’t get the job. Or (as happened to me one) don’t even get an interview!
      I hope you can hang on at your current job until you get a better one. And I hope that’s SOON!

      1. Artemesia*

        Oh yeah. I am cool with, ‘I applied but didn’t get chosen’ but when they seek you out for something that you weren’t even looking for and then reject you it cuts. It reminds me of those actors who are told ‘we are looking for someone like Big Name and when Big Name, says ‘I’d love to audition’, they say well LIKE Big Name but not. . . .’

        1. Emma*

          It’s the worst!! Especially since the job was exactly what I had been looking for (database support for a nonprofit development team without actually BEING Development™) and it seemed like a great fit. Applied to work the front desk on weekends at a tattoo shop on a whim yesterday though so maybe this is the beginning of my new career as a body piercer??

    3. As Close As Breakfast*

      This happened to me once and it was awful. My boss and her boss both told me to apply. It was government so the process took FOREVER. It came down to me and one other person and I didn’t get the job. I was miserable. My boss’s boss even cornered me in the bathroom to talk about why they choose the other candidate, which I will never for the life of me understand. The bathroom?!?!? I cried. It sucked. Anywho… it ended up okay because I did quit. The whole mess ended up being that last thing I needed to look for another job. I was super underemployed (as so many of us where in 2010ish) and I luckily found a way better job within 2 weeks of being rejected. I turned in my resignation with glee. I laughed at home over how shocked they were that I was quitting. I found (petty) joy when I learned about 6 months later that the person they hired over me wasn’t doing that great of a job. Because I would have rocked that job. But I’ll be forever grateful that they didn’t hire me. I’m sending you extra big good vibes! And I hope one day you can look back and be glad they didn’t hire you too! Good luck!!!

      1. I❤️Spreadsheets*

        I’ve had a similar experience. I was asked to apply for my managers job when they handed in their resignation. I applied and at the closing date was the only applicant, so they extended the deadline for a few weeks. They got a few more applicants and I was one of the shortlisted candidates.

        After the interview process I was told that I hadn’t got the job which hurt. I’m still in my old role and had to support the new manager when they started. Two years later the new manager is facing a mutiny from the staff and an investigation by the higher management. Depending on the outcome of the investigation we may be looking for a new manager – it will be a shock to some that I will not even consider applying this time!

  23. Ask a Manager* Post author

    Has anyone else noticed the sudden emergence of the phrase “not a good look”? As in, “don’t shave your legs at your desk — it’s not a good look” or “charging an employee for business cards is not a good look.” In the last six months, it has been everywhere in the comment section. I just searched to see how often it came up a year ago, and the answer is almost not at all — but it’s been practically daily recently. What is going on with this phrase? (Full disclosure, it drives me batty for some reason, probably just because of its sudden frequency.)

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Is it possible people were using NAGL and you didn’t know what it meant? I didn’t for a long time.

    2. Annie Moose*

      Please tell me that shaving legs at your desk is not a real thing a real person has really done.

    3. ZSD*

      Interesting. I can say that I’ve been familiar with the phrase for much more than a year, but I don’t know why it would suddenly be showing up in your comments. How many different commenters have used this phrase? Is it just one or two new people who happen to use it often?

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          Were some of the initial uses you found by popular/prolific commenters that others may have taken a cue from?

          1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

            Or Alison herself.

            I’ve noticed it too and thought it might just be some of the commentators parroting the verbiage that Alison has used.

            1. Detective Amy Santiago*

              I’m thinking not Alison since she mentioned not liking it. But it’s possible it was included in a letter or something and that’s where people got it.

        2. LawLady*

          Do you think maybe it’s because there’s an increased awareness (on this site and in the world broadly) of how some other terms might be problematic or stigmatizing? I think people are now a lot less likely to call something “crazy”, or “psycho”, or “insane”, or the r-word, etc. than they were even just a year ago.

          “Not a good look” means that something is bad, but doesn’t make reference to a disadvantaged group.

            1. No Tribble At All*

              Right, and it’s also blameless. It’s not that you’re doing something /bad/, but the thing you’re doing /looks/ bad. My guess is it came from advice on how to criticize an action without criticizing the person.

        3. Rhiiiiiiannnnnnnon*

          Is it possible that you’ve started to reach a new age/location demographic recently? My Midwestern mother who’s turning 60 soon has been using “not a good look,” my whole life. Its one of her favorite phrases! I remember her friends also used it frequently.

        4. schnauzerfan*

          It was posted in Urban Dictionary in 2010, It’s acronym is even earlier “”NaGL” Not a Good Look –
          “NaGL” a stage play written by an Australian- Polish playwright/director Lech Mackiewicz in 2004. Submitted to the Sydney Theatre Company and to the Griffin Theatre Co. programs and rejected it was further revised in 2006. It will be staged in Sydney at The Tap Gallery in September 2010.
          Cast of 5 ( 2 females , 3 males ). Two acts.”

          I heard it years ago. I thought it died out… don’t know why it’s back

      3. Cambridge Comma*

        If you look at it in Google’s n-gram viewer, it started to be used in 1990 (at least in that corpus).
        I personally use it was a gentler way of saying “you may be a massive bigot, but don’t think that being one doesn’t make you look bad”. And massive bigots seem to be less inhibited to express their views recently.

    5. Tableau Wizard*

      I haven’t noticed it here, but I do know that has been more popular in my conversations over the past year. Do we know what the origin is? Is there some show that made it more prevalent or something?

    6. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

      I used to hear it a LOT when I worked for a major financial services company (2014-15). Freaking EVERYONE there said “This is a good look” or “That is not a good look”….I dated a guy who worked there and he used it so often I finally snapped…..”No, you’re right. Getting upset about that isn’t a good look, in fact it’s not even a look because being upset is a feeling and feelings don’t have looks unless you’re taking acid and we’re both too old for that these days!” Took him a minute, but I don’t think he ever used that phrase again around me.

      I haven’t heard it much lately, though. Which is odd. Usually Floriduh is centuries behind any emerging trend.

      1. whistle*

        Hm. This isn’t an expression I use a ton, but I think I can only say “That’s not a good look”. I don’t think I would ever say the positive version “That’s a good look”. Anyone else have this distinction?

        (Sorry, Destroyer, I know that’s not what your comment was about, but I find it really interesting that people say “That’s a good look.” (when not talking about clothes))

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          You’d say, ‘that looks great’ instead. ‘A good look’ – maybe in the fashion industry. I think I’ve heard it on some makeover show years ago, like ‘what not to wear’.

          I wonder if it gets used a lot on Queer Eye or RuPaul’s Drag Race? I think I’ve heard it on QE a couple of times, I know I’ve seen people use it in discussing QE shows.

          1. Decima Dewey*

            Back in the day, Tim Gunn used to say of some contestant’s overdone designs “That’s a lot of look.” So much subtler than “My eyes!”

    7. Phoenix Programmer*

      It seems to be part on parcel with social news pieces. I’ve seen hiff post and Slate ise the term In their social justice opionions or articles and I think it’s been picked up in the general vernacular more

    8. hermit crab*

      I think I’ve only ever seen it used in the AAM comments!

      I don’t know the first thing about approaching an analysis like this — but it could be a fascinating case study on how popular phrases get sparked and then spread and change a group’s language patterns over time. Like when a cool new kid moves to town from Boston and suddenly everyone in the fifth grade is using “wicked” as an adverb, until it spreads too much and isn’t hip anymore.

    9. Pollygrammer*

      I’ve heard this phrase mostly from teenagers.

      Josie is totally stalking Dan’s Insta even though she knows he’s into Britney. It’s not a good look.

    10. k.k*

      That’s a phrase that’s entered my lexicon radar in the last year or so as becoming more popular. I know it’s been around longer, but I’ve particularly noticed it being used more by the demographic of people over 30 who are also using phrases like “YAS queen” and “on fleek”. (Not to say those are the only ones using it, but that’s my indicator for when slang has reached critical mass).

      1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

        Me too. I think it might be a next stage evolution of that phrase.

      2. CMart*

        I was going to suggest that people have adopted it en masse after what seemed to be a huge influx in the use of “optics” half a year ish ago, which drives ME batty.

        Alison–was there a drop off in “optics”, or a similar spike in “optics” at some point? I remember it felt like I was seeing it everywhere in the comments on this site for a while.

      3. Windchime*

        Yeah, I was thinking it had taken the place of “bad optics”. For some reason, the “not a good look” phrase bugs me, too.

    12. Myrin*

      Off-topic (which seems somewhat ironic with your other comment down below), but this site can be searched that precisely? Is that through the “custom search”/”search this site” feature to the right or is it something only you as an admin can do? Because I’ve used the search bar for certain topics where I remembered some phrases exactly/word-for-word, but the post I was looking for still didn’t show up. Is there another way to search the site that I’m somehow not privy to?

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Yeah, it’s an administrative feature — I can search all the comments from the back-end of WordPress.

        But also, when I want to search everything all at once (posts and comments), I go to Google and type in:

        site:askamanager.org (search term, without these parentheses)

        That way you can restrict by date, etc. and I find it better than the site search engine (which is weird, because the site search engine is also powered by Google).

    15. Funbud*

      Alison, I have to say that I find your questioning of the increased use of this phrase to really be “not a good look”…

      Just saying.

    16. Sack of Benevolent Trash Marsupials*

      “Not a good look” bothers me because it sounds so condescending, I can always see/hear it in my mind with a little pursed-lip pause immediately preceding it. I don’t mind “optics” as much because while it sounds a tad pretentious, it does efficiently describe something in the business world, and “we need to consider the optics” or “the optics are bad” sound less accusatory, when you’re using it with higher-ups, than “this makes us look bad.”

      1. Persimmons*

        Agreed. I feel like it’s often used for office dog-whistling. As in, “Jane is in loafers today, it really isn’t a good look. The executive admins know they’re supposed to wear high heels.”

      2. Sally*

        This kind of business-speak drives me nuts! There’s already a phrase for that – “we need to think about how this looks.” I use these words and phrases because everyone else does, and I don’t want to seem like the stick in the mud I sometimes am. It’s difficult to walk the fine line between “grammar has rules!” and “humans invented language, and we can add to it or reinvent it if we want.”

    17. Tara S.*

      I’ve heard that phrase for a long time, but not in a work context. Phrasing like that can pop up communally though, like Detective Amy Santiago mentioned, it might have been started by some and then picked up by others. It’ll probably taper off and die out, though I don’t know on what time frame.

    18. Emmie*

      Posters pick up jargon from others on the board – much like we did with the duck club, Waukeen, and teapots. Popular posters create a language, and we have a culture to the AAM page. It’s probably the same reason why language evolves in real life. We see others use it and it becomes part of our vocabulary. The “not a good look” is a little behind IRL times. That phrase was pretty popular about five years ago in my IRL city.

    19. Tina*

      I wonder if a lot of the commenters here crossover with being “in the know” with social justice oriented Twitter lingo, which shifts (like using terms “do better” until it becomes almost cliche). I feel like “not a good look” is an iteration of “do better.”

    21. Applesauced*

      This feels like something JVN would say on Queer Eye… which began in February of this year

    22. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Honestly, I’m not sure it would have stood out to me if it did; it’s a phrase my family uses pretty often, so it seems normal to me.

      That said, if it just suddenly became a thing on the website, that’s interesting! (And weird.)

    23. post-it*

      funny that it bugs so many people because i find it FAR preferable to “optics”

      *shudder*

    24. JamieS*

      Haven’t noticed. Think I may have used it recently but I’ve known the phrase for years so maybe there’s just been more letters recently where the phrase is appropriate. Is there a pretty even distribution over the last 6 months or are most sightingson a few letters?

        1. JamieS*

          At this point commenters are probably using it because they’ve seen others use it on this site so it’s now a cycle. Similar to “gentle reminder” which drives me up a wall.

          There’s probably a trigger thread (maybe a couple) that was pretty popular where someone used it, couple others saw it and decided to use it too, and eventually it grew to daily usage.

          1. Windchime*

            Auuuuggghh, “gentle reminder” sounds *so* condescending to me. I think people use the word “gently” when they mean “tactfully”. It’s OK to tactfully remind me of something or tell me that my skirt is tucked up into my undies, but there is no reason to approach me gingerly or tell me “gently”.

            1. JamieS*

              Yes exactly. The condescension is maddening. Whenever I see “gentle reminder” I instantly read the post in a tone that should only be used when talking to young children which is part of my hate-hate relationship with the phrase. Everyone here is an adult, or close to it, so if you have something to say just say it. An adult doesn’t need to be “gently” talked to.

              The other issue I have is that I think it’s sometimes used when a poster is trying to shut another poster they disagree with down but that other poster didn’t break any rules.

    25. Snork Maiden*

      I’ve always used this phrase, as far back as I can remember – but I had the same reaction to when everyone started using “optics” in a similar context, all at once. My spouse even used it in conversation with me! I found it bizarre. Where did it come from?

      In related news I am a word worm vector. I accidentally had my old workplace saying “theoretically” and “ostensibly” for about a year. They’re good words, Bront…

      1. JessicaTate*

        “Optics” is the one that caught me when it started being heard in everyday conversation. I always assumed that it’s common usage started with season one of Scandal (I swear that’s the first place I heard it, and they said it ALL the time).

        But I can’t think of a pop culture genesis of “not a good look.”

    26. smoke tree*

      I can’t say I’ve noticed others using it, but that’s probably because I’m an unapologetic user myself (sorry!) I think it’s more diplomatic than just telling someone they are coming across as a bigot, which is the context where I use it most often.

    27. Someone else*

      I’ve definitely noticed it increasing in frequency (not specifically here just in general in my experience), but it hasn’t seemed super sudden to me. A pretty steady increase in the past 2ish years.

    28. Like what even*

      From my understanding, this phrase comes from queer comunities, esp black and latinx drag communities! Similar to “serving looks,” etc. And I think with the advent of RuPaul and mainstreaming (or appropriation depending on how you wanna slice it) of queer poc culture, it’s becoming more common. I’ve heard it/used it for quite a few years now.

    29. Yorick*

      That’s so funny, just the other day I was thinking about how much it’s used here.

      I find it offputting, it feels a little too sassy or something to me. But I guess I’m imagining actually TELLING someone what they’re doing isn’t a good look, but that’s not what people are doing.

    30. amanda_cake*

      I don’t think I say it often, but it doesn’t bother me.

      I played softball for years (at the college level as well) and one of the things ball players say is “good look” when the batter doesn’t swing at a pitch that is a ball. Having heard that a gracious plenty, it doesn’t bother me.

    31. Not So NewReader*

      The only place I have seen it used much is on here. But I don’t get out as often as I should.

      I think I remember a thread with people discussing their dislike for the phrase. We tend to move through topics and we moved on from that discussion. It was quiet for a while, then I started noticing people were using the phrase.

      Some work places gravitate towards understatements. Not a good look can be an understatement for many negative messages. Some people don’t like delivering negative messages so this could be a way to get the point across with out saying, “hey, dunderhead, don’t do that again”.

      I think that some people would not get the message if told, “Not wearing socks is not a good look here.” I am not a fan of statements that do not tell the person what to do. A more effective message might be, “Hey, just to let you know, everyone wears socks here. It’s a quirk of our culture. I thought you’d want to know.”

    32. Iain C*

      I am pretty sure I’ve seen you writing about ‘optics more than a year ago. It’s not really all that different…

      1. Iain C*

        Of course I did the thing others do that annoys me – not refreshing before posting…
        Not good optics…

  24. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

    Just wanted to pop in and give y’all a little update…with some news that is very very bad for my former employers.

    The government agencies have started landing. OSHA has accepted my whistleblower complaint and they are initiating the government’s penalties for violating whistleblower protections. Things are progressing nicely on that front. My former employers have received my attorney’s “F&ck You you’re being sued” letter. Oh, my attorney has also filed a discrimination complaint with the EEOC. I love my lawyer.

    Things have taken a very serious turn for me, however. On Saturday, 7/21, I was taken to the emergency room. Untreated bronchitis (no insurance and no job to pay for a doctor). Was home five hours later. Woke up Tuesday morning, at 435. Ran to the little girl’s room and then back to bed, but I needed a breathing treatment. Primed up my nebulizer, strapped on my face mask, turned on the nebulizer and went to take a breath and…..there was nothing there. My lungs were not inflating (I have asthma, COPD and emphysema). I pulled on my robe (inside out…SMH), grabbed my cell phone and headed for my car. I turned on the a/c so I could breathe (forcing oxygen into my lungs) and called 911. The ambulance came but they wouldn’t give me the Solumed (steroid) push so I could breathe. They kept saying “Defib paddles are ready” (they were talking to the hospital). I’ve never had them talk about the paddles before when I’ve had to go to the hospital. I kept saying “Ok” and they would say “We’re talking to the hospital.” I started getting very scared.

    Long story short, all of the stress related to losing my job, the lawsuit, all the federal/state/local agencies, wondering how in the hell I’m going to pay my bills…all of that stress caused stress-related cardiomyopathy (aka broken-heart syndrome or takotsubo cardiomyopathy). Apparently, when they hooked up the EKG in the ambulance, my heart was all over the place, no rhythms or patterns whatsoever, just all over the place. Thank God they didn’t tell me that then. I had no idea how serious it was until the nurse came into my ER room with an 81mg aspirin and a nitroglycerin patch. These were to protect my heart while they transported me to my room, I was being admitted to the cardiac care unit. At that point, I completely lost my s&it. “I have bronchitis, what heart damage are you talking about?” I just kept saying that over and over again, practically screaming at them. That was when they told me I had blown out the wall of the lower left ventricle of my heart.

    My doctors are putting me out on total permanent disability, the best I can currently hope for is a 70% cardiac recovery. I left the hospital with 30% cardiac function. I had to undergo God knows how many EKGs, a cardiac CAT scan, a cardiac ultrasound, AND a cardiac catheterization which necessitated a phone call to my 85 year old father, thanking him for a good life and for everything he and my mom did for me. There was a chance I would not make it through the catheterization. That was, hands down, the single hardest, most difficult phone call I’ve ever made in my life. Obviously, I survived but I still had to make that phone call.

    My doctors are going on record that all of the stress related to my wrongful termination caused 100% of this cardiac issue. My attorney’s justice boner has punctured the stratosphere so we could probably blame him for global warming at this point.

    So I am in some kind of recovery. I can’t work for the foreseeable future and will probably never work again. I rest a lot, I take my meds, and I try really hard to not think about the lawsuit or my former asshole employers. My neighbors make sure I eat (the benefits of living in a 55+ community, they’re all busybodies and I am their project now, LOL) and check in on me throughout the day. My struggle right now is how I’m going to pay my bills….due to all the ins and outs, I can only claim unemployment for a very short period of time so it does not affect my disability/Medicaid…..so I’m hoping this all irons itself out much more sooner than later. I just received my USPS Informed Delivery Digest for today and I have three pieces of mail from the State of Florida Disability Determinations….fingers crossed it’s good news for me!!!!

    (But just for fun…..of course this week I start getting calls for interviews! I’ve gone on two of them, but they exhausted me so thoroughly it took me two days to recover. Some folks believe in “Carpe Diem!” Seize the Day! I subscribe to “Carpe Somnum!” Seize the Bed!)

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      You are my hero!

      I am so sorry to hear about your medical problems. Sending you positive vibes.

      1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

        Thanks Amy. This is a setback, I will not be deterred from my intended course of utter and total destruction. THEIR destruction, not mine own!!!!!!!

    2. MechanicalPencil*

      Oh my. Your story has been turbulent from the start, but I never expected this. Internet hugs if you want them. Good neighbors are blessings in disguise, so I hope they smother you in well intentioned casseroles. And justice boner. There’s a turn of phrase. Please keep us updated and yourself healthy.

      1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

        I didn’t either. Coulda knocked me over, but how happy was I when my doctors agreed to go on record!!!! Couldn’t stop smiling at that point in time. Hugs are always welcome, thank you!! Yesterday, pastries were delivered and my neighbor had me over for homemade fried chicken and it was good!!!!!!! Om nom nom…..my cats were licking my fingers for hours!!!!!! (Thankfully I have my babies, including 5 kittens, who keep me laughing which is good stuff!)

        1. hari*

          I’m not from the US but in my country it is very hard to get doctors to go on record and say medical problems were caused by stress because it is very hard to prove that was the cause sometimes they say stress exacerbated a condition but they won’t say it caused it (it does happen but not often). So I’m glad it worked for you.

          So sorry to hear about your medical problems hope you feel better soon.

          And I am stealing the phrase “justice boner”.

          1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

            The thing I have going for me is that “stress” is actually in the name of the condition: “stress related cardiomyopathy.” I have zero history of this type of cardiac condition, and a well-documented recent stressor. I had a very very minor heart attack about two years ago, but that was even more mild than this and I was recovered from that in 2 or 3 days (the lung paralysis took me 5 weeks to recover from). I was leery as to whether or not they would go on record, but all three agreed that they would. I was thrilled!!!!!!!!

            Justice boner is a beautiful phrase…..sums everything up very nicely! :)

            (As a side note…..what I find kind of interesting about stress related cardiomyopathy is that it affects mostly women (90%) and it just pings the feminist in me….what? we’re such delicate little flowers that only *we* can have stress related heart issues? Something along those lines…..)

            1. Not So NewReader*

              I think that women run out of vitamins and minerals in a manner that men do not experience. I am thinking in terms of our monthly cycles and how that translates to loss of nutrition in the blood, when the body is already at full capacity for stress. However, I know more men who have had stress related heart attacks than women. I think part of the problem could be that it’s frowned upon to label a man with a stress related illness.

              FWIW, I think you are a very strong person. I would have been flat on my back long before now.

              A tidbit that may/may not help. I was helping a friend with her lawsuit. We visited an attorney who explained in painful detail what the process would be. I said, “A person could get sick doing this.” The attorney blurted out, “No. A person WILL get seriously sick doing this, it’s a certainty.”
              So it must be that some lawyers are already aware that their clients will become seriously ill given their setting. They are used to seeing it.

              1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

                Wow, that’s frightening! (What the attorney said.) I never expected anything like this, I’m usually pretty darn strong.

                All of the research I’ve done (and I really need to stay away from the Google sometimes) says that it affects post-menopausal women so it definitely has something to do with either the hormones or vitamins and minerals. Of course, I’m 7 years younger than the lowest average female age so it’s one of those “Figures!” things for me.

                1. Not So NewReader*

                  The problem with lawsuits is that they force a person to focus on the past and keep reviewing Ugly Thing and then review it some more down to the finest detail. It’s the psychological equivalent of having your leg caught in a leg trap and you cannot move on. And the stupid a$$ things people think of to say is only gas on the already blazing fire.
                  Strategically, start adding enjoyable things to your life. Create a portion of your life that is a no-fly zone for court talk and court related stuff. I have used different techniques. One time my no-fly zone was based on time of day. After 9 pm I did not allow myself to think about All Consuming Problem. If I slipped up, I would just redirect myself. This worked well because there is not a lot a person can do at 9 pm anyway.

    3. Corky's Wife Bonnie*

      WOW!!!! Holy Moly!! I wish you much luck through this whole process, medical and legal. Your phrase “My attorney’s justice boner has punctured the stratosphere” has been the best thing I’ve read all day. Hang in there, rooting for you!!

      1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

        Thanks Bonnie. As I told Amy, this is just a setback for me. I’m just stubborn enough that there is no way I’m gonna die until I win this thing. I have HAD IT with those jokers, and asshole employers in general. I have a really great Valium scrip now, though.

        So I’ve got *that* going for me.

      2. Mary (in PA)*

        Yeah, I feel terrible for all that you’ve been through, but that phrase made me laugh extremely hard. Best of luck to you and I hope you feel better soon.

        1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

          Thanks Mary, I appreciate that. At least they didn’t take away my bacon! I told my cardiologist that he could have my bacon when he pried it from my cold dead hands. He wasn’t amused.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Drink plenty of water. Some folks get some results with water and just keep their bacon.

    4. Annie Moose*

      Oh no. That’s awful. On top of all the stress you were going through already…

      But! It sounds like you have some great neighbors and a great lawyer, and that has got to help a lot. If I’ve read your previous posts correctly, all the legal stuff is already in motion, right? So you’re not having to get a lawyer, make various reports, etc. ON TOP OF the medical stuff.

      Praying that your recovery goes as smoothly as possible and that those Disability Determinations contain good news!!

      1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

        Hi Annie and thanks. Yes, you are correct. My attorney was retained approximately two hours after I was wrongfully terminated and all the complaints had been filed by then as well. So yeah, nothing for me to really do except respond to further inquiries for information. All the footwork is done. I’m not a patient person, by nature, so just sitting here and waiting for the wheels of justice to turn is not easy!!!! And I have to stay away from inflammatory posts so the political stuff I used to screw around with online is off limits…..puppies and kittens are fun, though.

        1. Annie Moose*

          Kittens always make things better!

          …until they adorably climb up your leg and adorably poke a bunch of holes in your new pants, but they’re still so cute I can’t get mad at them.

          1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

            These guys are at that point right now. Fortunately, they are settling for climbing up the couch and snuggling/playing with me there. Kitten energy is so awesome…one second they are in full attack mode, gnawing on my hand, rabbit kicking my wrist and then…..asleep with their teeth around my finger. They’re so cute…..with bigbigbig motors!

      1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

        Yay I made someone laugh today! That’s my one daily goal, to make at least one person a day laugh, and I’ve met that goal early today! (He really does have a justice boner now…..I could almost hear it growing while I was telling him about my hospital stay. When I told him my doctors would go on record, that was when I heard the stratosphere “pop” as it was punctured…..)

    6. Ali G*

      Wow – I really hope you are feeling better soon! This is a lot to take for just one person. I’m glad you have some people for support (even the busy bodies!).
      I have no advice – just sending good vibes your way!

      1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

        Thanks Ali, good vibes, prayers, it’s all welcome. It’s not easy, I’m single and don’t date, don’t have a lot of friends, so relying on/calling on others is difficult for me. I’m learning to suck it up!

    7. Nita*

      I am so sorry that happened to you! Try to take it easy, and wishing you a really good recovery. I don’t know how you’re coping with the possibility of never working again… that’s a tough one. I hope that works out the way you want it to.

      1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

        Thanks Nita. Some days, I’m ok with not working again, others I get angry that I’m only 51 and some jackhandle who thinks he knows how to run a company ran me into the ground. I’m still trying to figure out how I feel about it. I’m not a freeloader, I want to work, I have a good mind…..but ah hell, I don’t know any more. I wish it wasn’t like this. I really do. That’s probably the best I can come up with right now.

    8. Indefinite Contract Attorney*

      POMPOMS! Best wishes for a good recovery; I’m so glad surgery was successful and you have a wonderful community around you!

    9. Thlayli*

      Holy shit. Not sure what to say. Umm… get well soon? Hope you recover from your heart attack.

      1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

        Thanks Thlayli……if I can get the lawsuit settled, that will go a long long way to my recovery! Just knowing my bills will be paid……and my medications. *eye roll*

    10. RabbitRabbit*

      Dang! That’s the second time this week I’ve heard about a case of takotsubo cardiomyopathy. Glad to hear at least the feds and your lawyers should be raining down sweet, sweet justice.

      Glad to hear your neighbors are helping take care of you, and that you are trying to pace yourself. My husband was recently hospitalized for a near-death experience due to a condition exacerbated by work stress (and first diagnosed in the hospital), and it’s amazing how many people – including his boss – assume because he didn’t die or get maimed, he should be 100% fine now. This isn’t TV! Instead it’s surprising how many issues keep popping up along the way.

      1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

        I had never heard of it before…..my exes think it’s hilarious that it’s also known as “broken heart syndrome.” There’s a reason they are exes.

        I sure hope your hubby is ok!!!! I am also amazed at the willful ignorance of some people. My mom, of all people…..while I’m in the hospital, hooked up to a bunch of machines, she wants to talk about my job search and when I’ll be able to go on interviews. The nurse came running in (because my heart monitor was going crazy) and ended the call. She told my mother that this was NOT the time for that conversation, and that THAT was part of the problem. To her credit, my mom backed right off and has been supportive ever since. My father probably also chewed her a new one, as well. Love her to pieces, the best woman I know, but doesn’t have a compassionate/empathetic bone in her entire body. Absolutely amazing.

    11. Tau*

      Oh my god, I’m so sorry to hear about your health problems! That’s absolutely terrible. I haven’t comment but I’ve been following your story on the open thread hoping for karmic comeuppance to hit your company. All the best wishes for your recovery, really hoping it’s all good news from here on out because you deserve it!!

      1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

        Thanks Tau. Karmic comeuppance, and a rather large meteor, could hit that company and I would throw a party.

    12. Discordia Angel Jones*

      I am really sorry to hear the troubles you are going through, and I hope you astound medical science and make a full recovery!! You definitely don’t need any more stuff to deal with right now…

      In any event, I have to say, I’ve been reading your saga and your writing style is fantastic. If you can’t work work, maybe you should write books instead!

      Jedi hugs if you want them

      1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

        Thanks Discordia. I’d be happy to get to 90%…..I think that would make my doctors happy, too.

        I actually love writing (and I type really fast 104wpm…LOL)…..but I wouldn’t have a clue where to start. I’m in my “second lifetime” right now, having done my “career thing” and having a blast until about age 30. Tons of great fun stories and experiences, I’ve met lots of interesting people and worked some very interesting jobs (automotive service manager for a supercharger company, I can rebuilt a supercharger with my eyes closed!; guard/counselor at the California Youth Authority–that was my “career job” that I went to school for) but I would have no idea where to begin. I’m not sure I could handle the rejection, either!

        All hugs are welcome and I thank you for them!!!!

    13. Tiny Teapot*

      I’m so sorry you’re going through this horrible health situation. That is so, so scary and I am sending good thoughts to the universe for your speedy and thorough recovery.

      I looked up your previous posts after seeing your first couple of sentences and I find your situation fascinating on so many levels. The amount of WHAT THE FUCK that lives in this space – leadership in that company, scamming those who are less fortunate than them and taking the last vestiges of their pride and life – I just…it is horrible. It hurts my heart, and so I can understand on many levels how it broke yous (except…also…literally it did so to you!). I am so glad you chose to pursue an option that would put a stop to some amount of this horrible situation.

      Again, many wishes for your speedy recovery and best of luck in the future. You seem like a cool cat and I look forward to reading your updates.

      1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

        Thanks Tiny. Yes, that’s the best way to put it: the amount of WTF…..everytime I thought it couldn’t get worse, it did! I was rereading AAM archives of really really bad workplaces just to keep perspective. ha ha. (but not really!) I just got pushed too far.

        Hoping recovery is somewhat speedy and maybe I can at least work part time. I’m hoping to be able to give all the deets once all is said and done…….so much interesting stuff happening!

    14. CupcakeCounter*

      Justice boner is my new favorite thing.
      Also glad you are still with us – heart issues are no joke. My husband got a defibrillator/pacemaker at 31 due to catching a cold.

      1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

        OMG! 31?!?!?! That’s horrible!!!!!!!!!!! I am so sorry y’all have to go through that.

        I’m hoping for a more than 70% recovery. I’m no good at stagnation and I can only do so much laundry. The cats are sick and tired of me washing their beds.

        1. CupcakeCounter*

          Honestly it was probably a good thing since “the incident” happened when I was home and could help him out. His grandfather essentially dropped dead of what he was diagnosed with and his uncle was diagnosed so late that his quality of life isn’t great. He’s made a few jokes since we met that he would die young (40’s-50’s) so make sure my 2nd husband was really rich. I noticed a couple of years after he got the device that he stopped those jokes. When I asked what changed he said that they probably already found what was going to kill him and sort of fixed it so he will most likely be sticking around longer than he originally thought.

          1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

            Did you then tease him that it was time to start making more money, then? That’s probably what I would say but I sometimes go a bit too far in my quips.

    15. straws*

      I’ve followed your saga silently, but had to pop in to wish you well! I’m so glad you have a community to help you with recovery. Good luck with your mail delivery today!

      1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

        Thanks Straws. The mail was requests for more information. I mean, no freaking wonder everything is so expensive. Four different envelopes from the State of FL Disability Determinations. Send it in the same envelope….good Lord. My little mailbox popped open when I unlocked the door! Sorry. Had to vent that one.

    16. Merida Ann*

      Oh my goodness gracious. I had to go back and search to find all of your previous posts about this and this has been an amazing and horrifying story! Especially when I realized that I’m only a couple cities away (and very grateful that I’m not job searching, so there’s no chance of accidentally stumbling into this mess). I’m so glad to hear that you are out and that you made it through the hospital incident! Best of luck in your recovery and I hope you get some good news on the financial side of things soon!

      1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

        Thanks Merida. If you ever find yourself job seeking in this area, reach out and I’ll steer you clear (if these clowns are still in business when I get done). LOL…..

    17. Evil HR Person*

      This will probably go without saying, but you are now, definitely and without question, eligible for SSDI, so please make sure that’s in the works toute de suite. I’m in Florida too (although on the other side from you) so I’m sending you (relatively) short distance good vibes!!

      1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

        Thanks Evil! ::waves across the state::

        I have a caseworker through the hospital who has initiated everything and is handling all of that for me. SSDI/Medicaid/Disability/Food Stamps/State Disability and more have all been initiated. I had my Medicaid phone interview last Monday and today’s mail was State of FL Disability with four different requests for information so I have to dig into that……unless my hospital caseworker wants to handle it, which she might. I signed a bunch of forms giving her permission to act for me (it was a limited POA for disability/Medicaid/etcetcetcetcetc) and also to handle appeals. My attorney is handling the wrongful termination only (under the FLSA and the FPWA, as well as the EEOC discrimination claim) and now the medical claims arising from that action. I feel like I have really good delegates working on my behalf so I can just rest and get well.

        And pray for the almighty karmic and legal screwing my former employers deserve.

        1. Jillian2*

          So sorry about the medical nightmare you are going through! I’d really like to read your previous posts and learn more about the lawsuit. I can’t figure out how to find your old posts. Do you have a link you can please cut and paste? Thank you.

          1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

            Hi Jillian….hmmmm……I don’t know how to link to specific posts within threads but Alison posted a search feature above. The way I read it is that if you go to google and type in site: askamanager.org username you can find my posts. This screen name was bestowed upon me in the July 4 open thread, prior to that my screen name was BAL or BLA(h)….depends on the day. All of my comments appear in the Friday open threads. I think I first posted about this workplace in the beginning of May. I was fired on 7/2 and posted that news in the 7/4 open thread. I’m sorry I can’t offer you a direct link, but try the search feature. If I understood Alison’s post above, you should be able to find it using that.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          My husband applied for disability in his 50s also. It was interesting because it went right through once they had their info. What the case worker said was very informative. My husband had a long history of employment on his social security earnings record. That combined with his age meant quicker approval because it appeared that he would prefer to be working. She said it also helped that we provided so much of the info. (It took the two of us eight hours to complete their form. They kept asking the same questions over and over, it’s probably actually a two page form if they only asked once. It’s embarrassing that this is our government.)

          1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

            It is a total embarrassment! My mailbox was full to overflowing today!!!!!!

            I’m hoping that, between me and the hospital caseworker, we can get this pushed through pretty quickly. I’ve had folks tell me that once they hit 50 it was much easier. I do have a 35 year work history, and I do want to work. Hopefully this will all be enough. I don’t want to sink a bunch of cash into an attorney just to get $1400 per month!

    18. tab*

      So very sorry to read about your medical issues. But, I’m delighted that you’re proceeding with your lawsuit. Take care of yourself while you fight the good fight.

      1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

        Thanks tab. Nothing is going to deter me from my path of complete and utter destruction. My folks have been ordered to proceed if anything happens to me. And they will. My father is quite upset. And when dad is upset, worlds move. He suffers no fools.

    19. Tabby Baltimore*

      I read this earlier today, at work, but couldn’t respond at the time. I just want to tell you my heart is so full for you. And your attorney sounds pretty wonderful, too.

      1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

        Thank you Tabby. I am so grateful for the support of the AAM community. My attorney rocks!

    20. Mimmy*

      I’m going to have to go through and look for your previous posts because I’m curious about the backstory.

      I love your spunk! I really hope everything goes smoothly for you and that you have a good recovery.

      1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

        Hi Mimmy. Look in the Friday open threads. I think I started in the beginning of May and that was under the screen name BAL or BLA(h)……Depends on the day. This current screen name was bestowed in the 7/4 open thread. That was a good one, cuz I was terminated on 7/2.

        1. Mimmy*

          Okay, just spent the morning getting myself up to speed. Not many people have the courage to do half of what you did. And this is your second go-around! Again, I hope things go better for you.

    21. ..Kat..*

      I am so sorry that you are going through this. Those strong enough to be whistle blowers have made employment better and safer for the rest of us in so many ways. Thank you for doing this. Be strong!

    22. Woodswoman*

      You are an amazing, heroic person and I’m so sorry to hear about your health difficulties. I’m glad to hear you’ve got multiple advocates–your rockstar attorney, your parents, your medical team, and the social worker working on all your disability paperwork, and even the agencies coming down on your former employer, seem to comprise an A-list team all working in your behalf.

      While I haven’t had a heart issue, I did have a significant medical challenge with a prognosis that I wouldn’t get my full function back. For me, I decided the statistics for success–or lack of it–would freak me out too much. Before I had a necessary surgery, I specifically asked my medical team not to tell me how far they anticipated I would get. I just vowed to heal as best I could. I ended up healing better than expected, and only long afterward did I ask them what they had anticipated and find out it was less than I had achieved. I hope that this is the case for you as well.

      Thanks again for your updates here. While my West Coast time zone and schedule often have me commenting late in the day, I always look for your posts. Here’s another AAM fan wishing you healing, speedy paperwork, a big settlement, and the satisfaction of justice.

    23. Jaid_Diah*

      *Hugs, chocolate, and a blanket burrito for you*
      I’m glad you’re alive and still kicking ass. I wish you well.

    25. Alli525*

      I’m late to the open thread, but I’ve been Ctrl-F’ing you in every open thread since you first started posting because your story is so fascinating to me. I’m so terribly sorry about your health problems – that must have been absolutely terrifying. But I’m glad you made it through, and SUPER glad that your doctors have your back and your former company is most certainly going down, and going down HARD. Sending you love from afar.

      And I’m also glad “justice boner” has started proliferating across the internet, not just on reddit, because it’s such a perfect phrase.

  25. Regular commenter*

    Vocal fry, should I say something?

    Background, I’m a 50-something male manager and one of my reports is a 30-something female engineer. She’s good at what she does, but over the past couple of years has adopted a vocal fry form of speaking, sounding like a late career Johnny Cash had a daughter with a frog. I think she thinks it makes her sound more authoritative, but it does the opposite. I believe it will negatively effect her prospects for advancements here, the partners have noted it in discussion.

    But, this is highly gendered and age related, so I am treading carefully. Any advice?

    1. Reba*

      I think what you could do to help this person is to try to push back when partners comment on it negatively (if you’re part of the conversations).

      You could point out that it’s a really common speech pattern for both women and men, and that having a voice that is judged to be pleasant and gender-conforming doesn’t have anything to do with the engineers’ work.

      I don’t think you have any standing to talk to the engineer herself about it.

      The bosses need to be corrected, not her.

      1. Reba*

        sorry, “standing” isn’t quite the right word, but I hope my intended meaning is clear enough!

      2. Anonymous Educator*

        Yes, there’s nothing wrong with vocal fry, except people being super judgy about it.

    2. NowWhat@25?*

      As a younger female who once needed to be told I wasn’t in college anymore, please say something. There’s a way to say it delicately (i.e. don’t say vocal fry, which is a very gendered phenomenon) but explain that a few people have commented on her tone and inflection, and that she would come across better if she went back to her more even tone. IIRC there was a viral video about three years ago that discussed the vocal fry and how a lot of successful women in business have it (granted their example was the Kardashians). She may honestly think she’s doing something to further her career.

      But tread lightly; it could also be a medical issue that doesn’t affect the quality of her work but does affect her voice.

      1. MakesThings*

        I’m not sure what the problem was, or why someone was so rude as to tell you to modify how you speak. It’s the audio equivalent of telling women to smile more. No thank you.

        1. NowWhat@25?*

          I was told I was too perky with my responses (and I am one of those abnormally perky people) in emails and in meetings and I needed to tone it down. People have taken me a lot more seriously since then.

          1. MakesThings*

            That sounds like an age thing, but not vocal fry, specifically. I wouldn’t tell people to be less perky, but I realize that your industry might be very specific about this.

          2. Logan*

            I have been told that it sucks the world works this way, however my lower tone of voice will be helpful to me in my career.

            I wouldn’t pick on that particular person’s vocal inflections, however I might make a comment to them that if they want to appear more authoritative in a workplace (especially large meetings) then they would do better to speak in a lower register. If I find the reference to studies which confirm this (if I get the opportunity to look today) then I will post them.

            1. Washi*

              I was just in a presentation given by a young woman who had a good amount of vocal fry and had this conversation with my (female) coworker:
              Coworker: She really needs to learn to eliminate her vocal fry in order to be a much more effective presenter.
              Me: I guess I didn’t find it distracting. That’s just the way she talks.
              Coworker: I teach speech, and you can’t be an effective communicator with vocal fry.
              (and so on)

              Yes, I think we should stop policing women’s speech, but people WILL judge, and some women would prefer to change their speech rather than deal with the judgment, as much as it sucks.

            2. Jules the 3rd*

              Vocal fry *is* the lower register, and Regular Commenter is talking about asking her to stop it.

              I have to agree with Reba – note to the commenters that it doesn’t affect her work, and ‘it’s a wide world we live in, enjoy the differences.’

          3. Thlayli*

            There’s a difference between speaking in a lower tone of voice (which it has been well established makes people sound more authoritative – Maggie thatcher being the most famous example), and vocal fry. Vocal fry is a totally different way of speaking – you hold your vocal chords in a different way. It’s a different register entirely – like speaking in falsetto.

            1. Like what even*

              That’s not true. Vocal fry is typically caused when there’s not enough air being used to speak, so your vocal chords aren’t able to vibrate as clearly or your soft palate collapses. It has more similarities to whispering than using a falsetto. It often happens to men when they “pitch down,” or force their voice into a lower tone than natural. But it never gets called out when that happens, because we’re trained to hear lower registers and hear authority.

              1. Thlayli*

                Ok it seems like everyone hasn’t different definitions of what vocal fry is. I’m stumped.

                Op, if your coworker is running out of breath then maybe suggest she see a doctor!

              2. Jennifer Thneed*

                Thayli was actually more right than you are allowing.

                From Wikipedia (link in username):
                “The vocal fry register […] is the lowest vocal register and is produced through a loose glottal closure that permits air to bubble through slowly with a popping or rattling sound of a very low frequency. […] The register (if well controlled) can extend far below the modal voice register, in some cases up to 8 octaves lower”

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      Ordinarily I’d say you shouldn’t do anything, but if you think she has affected this *deliberately,* believing it gives her authority, and you know for a fact it’s doing the opposite? That’s tricky.

      What would you do if it were any other habit she had acquired over the past couple of years? What if she’d changed her way of dressing, or her hairstyle, or the color of ink she uses when she takes notes in meetings? If the partners had commented negatively on any of these traits, would you tell her?

    4. Seltzer Fan*

      Hmmm… this feels difficult to weigh in on without actually hearing how she’s talking now (and how she was talking before). Does she do it all the time, or just when she’s leading a discussion or giving a presentation or something?

      If it’s only at certain times, I think you could mention something about her vocal affectation during presentations. And also if it’s only in public-facing situations, could it have something to do with nerves?

    5. What? Like it's hard?*

      If one of your 30-something male engineers who’s good with what he does but has adopted what you deem to be an “unprofessional” vocal habit, would you say anything? Or would you even notice? Be honest with yourself. Because men have been using vocal fry for a lot longer and people don’t seem to notice or care.

      My advice is to not say anything. It’s tough enough being a woman in a male-dominated field. Don’t add it to by critiquing something that is unrelated to her work. You’re also making assumptions about this supposedly new habit she’s “adopted”. Leave it alone.

    6. En vivo*

      You’re very brave attempting to discuss this here!

      If you must say something, please be sure that 1) she has deliberately changed her voice in an attempt to accomplish something, and 2) you know it’s doing the opposite and 3) you’d do the same for a male employee. Speak to her respectfully and in private. But be careful; she might see it as gendered bias or harassment. I hope it’s not on your part. I personally wouldn’t say a word.

    7. Thlayli*

      I had no idea what this was so I just YouTubed vocal fry.

      What a really really weird affectation. Why would someone do that? How strange. Are you sure she thinks it sounds authoritative? It definitely sounds the total opposite of authoritative, it sounds like someone putting on a weird voice like 2 year olds do when they are learning to speak.

      I think you would probably be doing her a favour by telling her the partners have mentioned it. I don’t think she would thank you for this though, since apparently vocal fry is common in young women according to the YouTube video I just watched (I can only assume this is an American thing because I have literally never heard someone older than 2 do this in real life). So given that it is apparently a gender and age “thing” in America, I think you should stay well out of it in case you get accused of sexism or agism.

      I don’t agree with previous poster that you should stand up to the partners for her. She’s choosing to put on a strange voice for reasons best known to herself. You don’t have to join in when they laugh at her but you definitely don’t have to defend her decision.

      1. Reba*

        I don’t know what video you watched, of course, but it sounds like it might have been exaggerated to illustrate the phenomenon? I hear (mild, I guess) vocal fry every day, in ordinary speech. Although it is more used by young people than not, it simply isn’t strange.

        It sort of became a thing to criticize young women for doing it a few years ago, I guess since the battle over uptalk was done and there needed to be new ways of policing how people, especially women, behave. Then there were also quite a few articles etc. defending the practice — or at least pointing out that criticizing it was ageist and sexist, since men also do both those things but don’t usually catch flak for it. Here is a piece from NPR about the whole thing and its implications https://www.npr.org/2015/07/23/425608745/from-upspeak-to-vocal-fry-are-we-policing-young-womens-voices

        And to me it seemed reasonable to go with the conclusion that the Big Bosses’ complaints about it, in this situation, are ageist and sexist.

            1. MakesThings*

              This video is exaggerating for the purpose of demonstration. You’ve heard vocal fry a lot. In real life, it’s the little dip that comes at the end of a sentence or a phrase.

            2. MakesThings*

              Also, the guy in the video obnoxiously makes it sound like some crazy thing that nobody knows the purpose of, that only young women do. So there are two thing wrong with that:
              1. Apparetnly the young women who do it are “nobody”
              2. It’s pretty well known that it’s sometimes done to make the speaker sound more authoritative (whether or not it actually helps is another matter)

        2. Thlayli*

          I’ve never heard anyone male or female do it in real life, except kids when they are learning to speak. Most kids go through a phase of speaking in silly voices including vocal fry. And of course, Danny in the shining. “Red rum! Red rum!”

      3. LilySparrow*

        Well, it depends on the YouTube video. There is at least one complaining about the “epidemic” of vocal fry that also exaggerates the pronunciation of words in an extreme, Valley-Girl way. Most people with vocal fry sound nothing like that. Certainly if the engineer has started affecting a bizarre fake accent, that’s something that should have been addressed a long time ago.

        I personally don’t like hearing constant vocal fry from anyone, because I was taught in my high-school and college voice classes that it was a sign of insufficient breath support and would damage your vocal cords. So when I hear it, I have an instinctive “ouch!” response. But speech pathologists and vocal experts now say that is not true, and it’s not at all harmful. It’s just allowing the vocal cords to be open and relaxed as you speak.

        Here’s an NPR “Planet Money” podcast with a male and female host. The male host has a lot of vocal fry going on, and the female host has less, but some when her intonation drops.
        https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/08/02/635129556/grey-poupon-and-the-cultural-divide

      4. Ex-Academic, Future Accountant*

        It’s not an affectation. Most people who do it don’t know they’re doing it. (I certainly didn’t, until I heard a recording of myself.) It has to do with your lungs being low on air, as they often are at the end of a sentence.

        1. Thlayli*

          Maybe see a doctor? You shouldn’t be running out of air when you speak. That sounds really concerning tbh.

    8. LilySparrow*

      Has she changed anything else in her demeanor or presentation that’s working against her? There might be room for an overall discussion if she’s shooting herself in the foot with a poor take on professional norms in general.

      Vocal fry can sometimes (sometimes!) make people of any gender sound disengaged, bored or dismissive. If that’s the impression she’s giving, then that’s something you can address without making it specifically about the fry: “I’m getting feedback from the partners that you don’t seem fully engaged in meetings” or “I’m getting feedback that you’re answering the partners’ questions in a way that seems dismissive of their concerns.”

      But if those aren’t real issues and it’s just a vocal mannerism that you and the other guys find annoying, I agree that it makes more sense to push back on the partners.

      1. RockyRoad*

        I’d never heard of “vocal fry” before, but when I YouTubed it and listened to a few videos my first thoughts were definitely that the people using it sounded disengaged, bored, or dismissive like you said, and even conceited, or flippant. Now that I’m thinking about it, I know women personally and through work who do this. Very strange!

    9. Lora*

      How do you know she “adopted” it?

      Reason I ask is, I had several bouts of pneumonia, flu and bronchitis in a couple of really awful years and it definitely affected my voice. I used to have a normal voice, if plagued with a nasally rural Pennsylvania accent, and now most of the time I sound like what would have happened to Janis Joplin if she had survived to age 70.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Agreed, the video link above just sounded like a tired person to me. A REALLY tired person.

        OP, I think your coworkers should talk to her about or quit commenting about it among themselves. One or the other. I would advocate for the latter.

    10. General Ginger*

      It’s probably unlikely that you’re dealing with something like my situation, but I am a trans guy, on testosterone, and once my voice started to change, it sounded like terrible vocal fry for a good six months before abruptly dropping into a typical male register. I wasn’t out at the time, and if someone tried to address it with me, I don’t know what I would have done. Probably panicked.

    11. disney+coffee*

      I’m a 20-something female engineer, so I do (vaguely enough) understand her position. Overall I think you do need to bring this up with her in a very, very respectful manner. If I was in her position and had this conversation, I would probably be embarrassed in the moment but eventually thankful for the comment. As long as you’re respectful and treat her like any other employee, you’re doing the right thing.

    12. Evil HR Person*

      I’m a woman. I’m also evil, so vocal fry is in my array of evil ways to drive someone nuts.

      Honestly, I hate it. I’ve noticed it more in women than in men, but men certainly can be heard doing it and they both drive me nuts. I’ve also heard it on young-ish celebrities, most recently Ivanka Trump (who’s not exactly young, so I don’t know what’s going on).

      I’m guilty of doing it sometimes. I’ve caught myself affecting vocal fry on the phone with someone who was soliciting business. I didn’t want to speak to that person to begin with and then… VOCAL FRY. I don’t know what to make of that; take from it what you will.

    13. EB*

      I think with vocal fry being “in the news” lately it’s being presented as gendered and age-related but it’s really not if you start listening for it in men and women of all ages. As such, I don’t think it’s appropriate to ask someone to modify their voice because a few people find it personally unpleasant (because I think that’s the real issue here). BUT– I do think it’s possible that there are other things at play here that might be within your right to mention– is it not just her voice but also her word choice? You’d be in the right to point out language that’s not office appropriate, for instance.

      1. spock*

        It’s not that doing it is gendered, it’s the reactions that are gendered. You’re right that both men and women do it, but it’s often presented as an issue with how women speak. I’ve never heard any men criticized for vocal fry but have heard women criticized for it quite a lot.

    14. Merida Ann*

      Can you bring it up without using that term? Because if someone told me that I was doing that, I would have no idea what it meant or how to change it, even after looking up several Youtube videos, none of which sounded the same or sounded bad, so I’m really confused. Is it that the voice sounds gravelly or like she has a cold? If so, just say that (ideally in the form of asking if she’s okay, not telling her that she’s doing something wrong).

    15. Totally Minnie*

      I was in a seminar with a business consultant who recommended that women with high voices make an effort to pitch their voices lower, because people don’t take high voices seriously enough.

      (I did not take this advice, as I am a performer in my personal life and I don’t feel the need to damage my primary instrument just because some people find high voices irritating.)

      The thing about giving a woman advice about the pitch of her voice is that there are people who will be irritated by EVERYTHING. Some people think a woman with a high-pitched speaking voice is flighty and annoying. Other people think a woman with a low-pitched speaking voice is wrong and unnatural. It can end up feeling like a no-win proposition.

      Please, for all that is good and proper in this world, let your coworkers decide how they feel comfortable speaking, regardless of their gender.

  26. Pending*

    Can I get some advice from people who have more experience teleworking? Specifically, with setting up some boundaries. I’m a first-time supervisor, and I’m managing someone who lives about 3 hours away and has been commuting back home on the weekends. I found a way for her to take some work back with her so she doesn’t have to choose between overtime and her regular life, but teleworking is new to both of us and I really feel like this week things got out of hand.
    What kind of rules/guidelines have you found make teleworking work for both the manager and the employee?

    1. ItsMe*

      I telework occasionally, but we have VPN to log into, so I always have access to anything I need to do my work.
      If your company doesn’t have that, I don’t think teleworking makes much sense. How about a 4-day work week for her instead, with Monday or Friday being one of the days she’s off.

      1. Emmie*

        Security is super important. Good point about the VPN. I’d think about maintaining company confidentiality (i.e. trade secrets and customer lists), and maybe an encrypted computer.

    2. Emmie*

      I am a 100% work-from-home (WFH) director who manages WFH employees in different time zones. I applaud your creativity here! What are your main concerns? How did things get out of hand? I am happy to share my experiences with you. I do not think in terms of “rules,” but these are items I find helpful.
      – How will you monitor work completion? I asked my employees to come up with an appropriate method. I could have implemented a solution (and had plenty of ideas), but it could be accomplished a lot of different ways. This will be important for performance review time, and also precedent.
      – What will her schedule look like? Will it be steady?
      – Since this is your first time doing this program, I’d let her know that your expectations could change as you navigate this first-time accommodation because it’s a learning curve for both of you.
      – You may wish to look at some sample Teleworking policies, which you can find on google or via SHRM.
      – I’ve been WFH for the past two companies. Both have required that I’m available via instant messenger through the day, and I keep to regular company hours.
      – What are your responsiveness expectations? Email? Phone?
      – I have regular check in meetings with my group. You should also have dial ins and / or virtual conference platforms (like Skype shared screen, Blackboard Connect, or Zoom) for meetings.
      – How will both of you manage relationships with in-office people to complete her work? Since this is your first time, be careful about doing her work when people come into your office. Refer people to her. Encourage people to build that relationship. How will she maintain those relationships?
      – WFH has to be more responsive to requests in my opinion. It’s not easy.
      – I suggest letting her know this is not always promised and it’s continuation is contingent upon how well she handles the WFH situation.
      – Do you have mandatory on-site meetings? I’d set the expectation up front that she may have to work in the office on some of those days. (This may not apply to you.)
      There are a million more things I’d suggest too, but don’t want to overwhelm you or discuss an irrelevant tangent.

      1. Pending*

        Thanks for all the advice! I’m sorry for being so broad in the beginning, but a lot of what you mentioned is already helping me think more in depth of how I want this to work.

        One of the big problems with how things went for me this past week was communication; this project was modified quickly to bring on people to help me complete it, so we don’t have a lot of the standard tools. (I have Skype, she doesn’t, and google hangouts seems to be permanently down for everybody.) We usually text or call, but after she texted me that she was too sick to come in (I gave more details down below) it turned into just me texting later in the day to ask how she was doing. The low point was when I texted her to ask if she was done with a report and she told me she’d send it as soon as she was out of the doctor’s office– which was the first I’d heard about her seeing a doctor.

        Right now we’re working on a project that’s got about a 6-week life expectancy, no meetings, and the work is mostly data entry-style. The only reason to keep to regular hours is because she needs to ask me questions or receive assignments from me, otherwise our office lets people set their own hours based on what they need to get done in a typical day.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          So, you don’t really need to hear about her seeing a doctor — it’s not weird or alarming that you didn’t know that, and you should not consider that a low point. What you need is to be kept in the loop about how work is progressing and how she expects it to progress; to check in as things unfold; and to lay out milestones she’ll need to hit and make sure she hits them. You need to lay out for her clearly how you want that to work.

        2. Emmie*

          AAM has given you excellent advice, and so did the other posters. I agree with the regular check in points, and I’d document that in writing for the benefit of you two. I’d also acknowledge that this is a learning curve for both of you. I’d ask if she has any other concerns, and if she has any solutions to these issues. She might have new ideas too.

    3. BRR*

      Is there a specific issue you’re having? I telework a few days a week. When my manager started a year ago I don’t think he was super on board at first but then got more comfortable with the situation. As the remote worker, I try to respond quickly to emails and IMs and make sure to set my IM status as away when I step away for lunch.

    4. Falling Diphthong*

      Seconding questions about the specific issue you’re having. I’m very much a “the work gets done by the deadline, or (rarely) you give a reasonable heads up that it will be late, why, and the likely timeline” sort of worker.

    5. Bend & Snap*

      I’m a fully remote employee. My rules/my manager’s rules are be accessible and get your work done.

      What happened and what exactly are you looking for as far as rules?

    6. Thlayli*

      I think the problem here is less about telework, and more about the fact that she doesn’t have enough time to get her work done Monday to Friday and has to work overtime on weekends. That’s the key issue. Either she is not good enough at her job or you are asking her to do too much work.

      1. Pending*

        I should mention for context that I was specifically hired to work on a project that’s about to get dropped thanks to a policy change that had nothing to do with me. Since the project has tons of funding and little time, all of us are being given the option of overtime, which in my line of work is rare and considered a huge windfall.

    7. Pending*

      I’m getting that I should have way more details, but honestly I was pretty embarrassed. I didn’t really set up any boundaries with her, since we’re both pretty similar in age and work ethic I went with a “just let me know what hours you spend on this, I trust you” approach. Here’s the low-down:

      Last week, her dog got sick mid-week and I had a big report on the to-do pile that could be handled out of the office. I told her she could take the report to do at home and got all the materials together for her. It was a more extreme version of what we’d done the previous weekend, where after her regular 40 hours were done she left to drive home, and then worked her allowed 8 hours at home on the project I’d given her. (What we’re doing boils down to a lot of data entry, so she’s able to do it on her issued laptop and then bring it back to me so I can enter it.)
      On Monday, I got a text from her that she was too sick to drive back to the office, but she hadn’t finished what I’d given her so could she continue working on that? Getting that report done was a priority for me, and I didn’t want her trying that 3 hour drive when she was so sick, so I agreed. More than that: I kept telling her to take it easy and to make sure she was getting plenty of rest.
      That wouldn’t have been a problem if the pattern didn’t keep repeating until (this is the “got out of hand” part) she hasn’t been able to make it in all week, and I just got the work I needed from her this morning. What I regret the most is not telling her at the beginning of the week that if she’s that sick, she needs to focus on getting better, not on trying to get her full hours in. But I don’t think she even knew how sick she was, or that it was going to continue on for so long. And even if she did, the message I gave her was that she could stay home and work on the project until she felt better.

      She’s a hard worker and takes the job seriously, so I don’t believe that this was intentionally taking advantage of me, but the field and office that we work in tends to be pretty freewheeling. The priority is getting the work done, and nobody minds much when you do it as long as you do it well, but the fact that I spent the last week with barely any idea what was going on with her is freaking me out.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        I think what you were missing was language like “Please let me know by Tuesday if you’re not on track to have this fully completed by Thursday” or “Since you might not be working normal hours this week, keep me posted about your progress so I know if we need another plan for this work — let’s check in about it tomorrow morning and again on Thursday” or other specifics about how in the loop you wanted to be.

        1. Pending*

          I definitely know I need to talk to her on Monday because our expectations about how her working remotely would go were pretty mismatched. One thing that’s still bothering me though, is after she told me Thursday she was seeing a doctor, I told her I didn’t feel comfortable with her still working on this when she was clearly seriously ill. I told her to check in with me about how she was feeling the next (this) morning. She texted me at 11 that she had finished and was sending me the report.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            You’re actually overstepping. It’s not up to you to decide that she’s not well enough to work; people see doctors all the time without being too sick to work. Unless there are really unusual circumstances, you need to let her make that call. Same thing with your mention above that you kept telling her to get plenty of rest — she’s a grown-up! You’re putting yourself in a paternalistic role here and you shouldn’t.

            1. Pending*

              You’re right– I think I got so upset that I wasn’t being a good supervisor that I started going totally overboard. I’ll try to stay focused on the work.

    8. CL*

      Develop a clear plan with your employee: telework schedule; availability expectations (answering phone calls, Skype messages, emails); work product/timelines/outcome (some may consider this productivity expectations); if a situation arises in which the employee needs to be in the office for a meeting, etc, how much lead time do they need to change their plans and be in the office; and equipment needs. You should review company policy and work with HR to ensure there’s nothing else to consider (for example, some companies require the employee have a secure wifi connection to VPN into the network).

      1. CL*

        Ah, I posted a response before seeing all the other answers. I see you received more in-depth responses to some very specific situations.

        1. Pending*

          No, this is a really great short version. I was too focused on the idea of rules, when what I really need is a plan and expectations we’re both clear on.

  27. Trout 'Waver*

    I’d like to give a special “Fuck You” to the people who interviewed me 4 times and then ghosted on me after requested a fifth interview.

    2. nep*

      We’re with you on that one.
      (How long ago did this happen? Any chance they made some mistake? Keep us posted if you hear anything more.)
      Onward!

    3. RabbitRabbit*

      Totally behind you on this. I get that not everyone who applies gets a response, but after two interviews, even an impersonal automated email notification would have been nice. I can’t imagine it after 4 and a request for a 5th.

    4. whistle*

      Time to put on that Lily Allen song and sing along as loud as you can. Or Beck’s “Soul Suckin Jerk”. Either one can work wonders!

    6. Goya de la Mancha*

      You should send them a glitter bomb thank you gift, if you’re ok with burning bridges ;)

  28. Allison*

    Need to vent.

    I felt like I had a great boss, and she seemed to really like me, just gave me a good raise and said I was getting a bonus. Then this morning we got a meeting invite with a vague title like “team update” and I started to worry, but reminded myself that my boss usually gives me a heads-up when these updates are expected to impact me directly. So I felt better, until I realized her office was dark and empty.

    Yeah, you know where this is going. The meeting was to tell us she’d left, and yesterday was her last day. I am so disappointed that she left so abruptly, and without saying a word to me, especially since she was so upset with my former boss putting in his 2-week notice last year! And no one thought to figure out who I would report to while we look for a replacement, until I asked, and they’re still not sure. I have no reason to believe my job is suddenly in jeopardy because I’ve gotten nothing but praise from those who work with me, but this is really stressing me out and I have started to put the feelers out, just to be safe.

    On the bright side, another executive left with her, and she never liked me, so I’m at least glad she’s gone.

    1. NonSequitor*

      It sounds like she either gave notice to her boss and was told to leave ASAP or she was fired. Neither of which would give her the time to give you a heads up.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I’m guessing she didn’t leave voluntarily. An after-the-fact meeting is usually a sign of that, especially if it wasn’t just her.

      1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

        This is what I would think too.

        Generally the clues are…

        Person already gone
        Terms such as ‘no longer with the company/an employee at/has left/seeking other opportunities’
        Short message
        ‘Team Update’ meeting w/short or no notice.
        “Still working out the short term details”

    3. Quackeen*

      This happened to me in March. Even though the higher-ups alleged that it was “mutual” between my manager and the company, I connected with him later and it was very much not mutual. Can you reach out to her via LinkedIn or something?

    4. Darren*

      I had pretty much the same thing happen last year. It was as the other commenters are saying very much not a mutual decision. Situations that look like this are in my experience almost exclusively a result of your boss having been terminated for one reason or another.

      Given the two leaving at the same time likely both were let go for similar reasons. It’s way too early to tell one way or another about your position unfortunately, you’ll have to look for clues and keep pay attention to how your new manager is handling you (in my case my new manager was very enthusiastic about having me and was giving me extremely important work, and it was clear they wanted to keep me). If you appear to be being sidelined, or don’t get a new manager than I’d definitely look at job searching aggressively since if that happens likely they aren’t sure what to do with you and a layoff is a fairly high probability.

  29. NonSequitor*

    Welp, I was promoted. This is somewhat interesting given my history – My position was restructured, a colleague was promoted over me last year, I’ve played acting Director twice while folks were out on family leave . But, my boss told me she made a mistake and promoted me. We just had a meeting about what she wants to accomplish this year. And to be quite frank, I’m not sure I’m the best person to achieve the goals she has in mind. Similarly, I was kind of ok being a worker bee and biding my time until I was able to change my career path. And I also don’t like change. So, I kind of don’t want the promotion now. Though I recognize that the ship may have sailed and not taking it wouldn’t change the fact that she wants to make changes that I would have to implement.

    I feel like an Eeyore and I wish I were Pooh

    1. mkt*

      Does the promotion come with perks – money $$$, visibility, flexibility?

      Like you said, if it’s not going to change the direction that your boss wants you to take in terms of responsibility and stuff, then why not go for it? You can always look for a change on the side and see how things work out too. It may even help in finding a new role if you’re so inclined.

      1. NonSequitor*

        It comes with most of the perks – a raise, a title change with more visibility and authority… not sure about more flexibility (it’s likely less flexibility given that I have more responsibilities, so less opportunities to be flexible)

        I already accepted the promotion. I’m just having second thoughts. Some of which is caused by the fact that a senior colleague mentioned she was worried I’m suceptible to burn out (my projects are known to be difficult) and my boss mentioned she noticed I had lost some of my joy (though also made a point of saying I should think about the projects I want to work on). The issue is that I’ve made a career for myself of being the go-to person on difficult, not fun projects and I also have imposter syndrome (or maybe I’m the exception and really not good at my job). I’m worried if I don’t work on difficult projects, I won’t have excuses to why I’m not as good at my job as everyone seems to think.

        1. mkt*

          I think if you have the self-awareness to note everything you said about your skills and work history, as well as the external colleague comment on burn out – which in my experience happens more often to people who are good at what they do and invested in work quality and output- than it’s likely a confidence thing and you really are fine where you are.

          Again, if you don’t like the projects or your actual work, that may be reason to start looking. Especially with the comment on losing your joy. If you don’t thrive on the challenge and spend more time being stressed than not, than yeah a change may be good.

        2. Trisha*

          Buyers Remorse. Many of us have it. My advice as someone who has “been there, done that, and has the tacky souvenir from the experience.”…suck it up, stick with it for at least a year, then figure out if this is where you want to be / what you want to do. Put forth the effort to learn the job, ask for feedback and if you’re really not good at it…then have the heart to heart, “not the right fit” conversation. My guess is you’re not really one of those people who is bad at their job, you just need to recognize your own strengths. I went several years with my team telling me I was a great manager and didn’t believe them (because I didn’t consider that I was doing anything extraordinary); time and perspective allowed me to see what I do differently and why they think that. Now, it’s all I can do from getting a big head about it. lol.

          1. NonSequitor*

            That is my plan. Without getting into the specifics, I basically owe my company another year of employment. So, my optimistic side tells me, take the job, do the job for a year, get your extra money, save a little nest egg and then leave the big city, find the lower paying job you want, and live in peace. (I won’t tell you what the cynical side of my brain ist telling me — but that’s the side that makes this promotion more fraught than it aught)

            As for my imposter syndrome/self-assessment — I’ve been told I’m great and I’ve been told I’m beyond terrible. I’m a middle of the road type of person, so I usually don’t believe either and tend to believe I’m just average. And average doesn’t warrant promotions or responsibility. (I would absolutely believe someone telling me, hey you’re ok moreso than someone spelling out all the reasons why I’m great)

  30. Amber Rose*

    I had a meeting with my boss about the future of the program I run. He said he feels like it’s been slipping to the side since we moved, and that he expected me to take over the space for it and make it my own, and I didn’t. So I pointed out that I didn’t want to step on anyone’s toes while we were setting up, and that I didn’t know how much power I had. To which he basically said, step on toes and do whatever you have to and if they have a problem they can talk to him. So that’s nice. I have some firepower, I guess?

    But it was a little frustrating to hear all this stuff anyway, because one: I have zero training in running something like this (or managing in general) and I’m doing my best to learn as I go, but I don’t really know HOW or where to start. And two: he said we needed all these inspections and shit and he doesn’t think we’ll pass, but he never TOLD me we needed these inspections, so how was I supposed to prepare for them? There so many rules and laws, I can’t possibly know them all unless I know to go looking for them.

    Also he said I should be spending more time on this stuff, because my other responsibilities aren’t 8 hours a day, but he trivialized that down to “processing orders and labelling” which is not… I mean, orders aren’t THAT time consuming usually, but also I do all the RMAs and am the only person who answers the damn phone and I’ve been taking more of my boss’s work (which IS time consuming) and training my backup.
    So on the one hand his feedback is valid (my program has been sidelined lately and I need to step up), and on the other hand his feedback feels unfair, and it’s becoming a significant source of stress for me and I don’t know what to do about it.

    1. mkt*

      it sounds like you got feedback on what he prioritizes and what he wants you to work on. I get that it can be frustrating because it sounds like a criticism of what you aren’t doing when you don’t exactly have a roadmap or guidance – but to be frank a lot of roles don’t.
      Are you able to pass along your other responsibilities or let him know that you need more support in order to focus on the stuff he wants?

      1. Amber Rose*

        But I didn’t really. What I got was that everything is equally important. I’m somehow supposed to be everywhere, and also at my desk. If I don’t answer phones I get shit, and if I don’t wander around and get everything done I also get shit. We don’t have voicemail and our phones are not portable.

        I am training someone to help me out, but he’s honestly going to be taking the easiest and least time consuming part of my job. :/

        1. mkt*

          Oh sorry, i misunderstood that part then.

          In that case, really, I would want him to list out priority and set out that something’s gotta give because it’s just not possible to execute on your program if you keep getting sidetracked with other responsibilities. Also to think about what’s on your plate and give suggestions as to what you want to happen and how those changes will also free you up in order to deliver on XX for your program, etc.

          1. Amber Rose*

            Weirdly enough, shortly after I posted this rant and my distress, I had a chat with my supervisor who kind of laid it out for me a bit better. So I have power, and a budget, and the right to say “I gotta do this so someone else has to do that.”

            Also I got a little bit of coaching on how to throw my weight around and it sort of worked.

            So we’ll play with these new rules for a bit and see where this goes. My stomach still hurts because of the uncertainty of it all though. :(

    2. Jessi*

      Can you not simply say to him “I’m having a bit of trouble prioritizing? Here is a list of all of the things that I am being asked to do, and a rough time estimate of the time it takes. Of course every time I answer the phone (happened x times on Friday) that takes time as well as having to refocus (this might help shift phone answering to someone more junior than you).

      {{{But it was a little frustrating to hear all this stuff anyway, because one: I have zero training in running something like this (or managing in general) and I’m doing my best to learn as I go, but I don’t really know HOW or where to start. And two: he said we needed all these inspections and shit and he doesn’t think we’ll pass, but he never TOLD me we needed these inspections, so how was I supposed to prepare for them? There so many rules and laws, I can’t possibly know them all unless I know to go looking for them.}}

      A script could be something like: “I was hoping you could also help me with industry regulations. As you are aware I’ve never run something like this and I’m not even sure where to start in figuring out how to do so. Last week you brought up all of these inspections – which I’d never heard of. This made me think that unless I can find out all of the rules/regulations/backstory that i need to be doing I’m always going to be missing them and unable to prepare for them.” combined with “I want to a great job at program and be really great at my job but I need some help/support in learning how to do that

  31. Tiny Seamstress*

    Seeking advice and also needing to vent. This is really long, and I’m sorry for the length.

    I work as a seamstress for a family business where it’s just the owner, another full-time seamstress, and me. I’m in my mid-twenties and have been working here for a year. We work out of the owner’s home. The majority of our work involves bridal gowns, and there is a lot of tedious handwork involved.

    Early last month, I was diagnosed with carpal tunnel syndrome in my right hand/wrist, and I immediately told my boss. My boss put me on light duty. I’ve also been seeing a chiropractor since last week to see if it will resolve my CT before deciding I need surgery. The doctors agreed my job caused my carpal tunnel. When I decided I wanted workers comp, I had to researcher it myself, as my boss doesn’t have workers comp information available (and I only have figured everything out since last weekend). According to my state law, every employer must carry workers comp insurance, and employees have 90 days to notify their employers about the injury. The employer has then up to 4 days to file the claim.

    My boss has not filed a claim (I didn’t know she was the one responsible for filing until last weekend), and she has been trying to blame my family history on my condition. My mom, aunts, and grandpa all had carpal tunnel, but not in their twenties (ages forty and up). I’ve been wearing a wrist brace at work, and every time a client asks what happened to my wrist, I tell them I have carpal tunnel. My boss immediately follows, “She has a family history of it!”

    On Monday this week, I was going to tell her that I wanted workers comp, but that morning her camper caught on fire. With that, she was very emotional that day, so I decided to give her a few days to calm down. Wednesday was the day I planned to ask her. And then that day during lunch… I developed carpel tunnel syndrome in my left wrist/hand. I told my boss about my left wrist and told her I wanted workers comp. She said she didn’t know how workers comp works, and I told her all employers are legally responsible for filing the claim for their employees. She then said she would talk to the accountant and left the room. When she returned she said her spouse would call the insurance agent and she would be in touch with me. I then left to see my chiropractor and didn’t return to work that day.

    Wednesday night, my coworker and I talked over the phone. She said after I had left, my boss and her spouse had a very hushed conversation in the corner (normally my boss tells her everything since they are almost family) and my boss spent a lot of time crying as she worked. My coworker told me she was concerned that my boss did not have workers comp insurance, or if she did she would not file the claim or lie on my claim.

    My chiropractor told me not to work yesterday and today. Yesterday, I swung by work to drop off doctors’ notes from my chiropractor and orthopedic and a workers comp form. Both my boss and my coworker were busy with a client, so I told them I was dropping off these papers (didn’t want to say in front of a client they were work comp forms) and left.

    Last night, my coworker told me my boss refused to look at the papers herself and had my coworker tell her what I had brought. When my coworker told her, my boss apparently said, “Why doesn’t Tiny Seamstress get another job? And why would she choose a job like sewing since she knew that she had a genetic issue.” (Been trying to get a new job! And like I said earlier I didn’t know carpal tunnel ran in the family until I got it).

    I definitely feel now that my boss doesn’t have workers’ comp insurance. I plan to get an attorney, especially since I don’t get paid sick days and I’ll soon get hit with medical bills. Also, I’ve recently looked up the OSHA guidelines for sewing jobs, and my boss doesn’t follow any of them, which makes me wonder if that contributed to me getting carpal tunnel. Now that I have CT and may have to get surgery, I at a last with my job search, and I’m worried employers will overlook me if I have to have surgery in the upcoming months. I’ve gotten in contact with a recruiter and told her about my carpal tunnel, so I’m hoping she can guide me.

    So regarding job searching to getting workers’ comp, if you guys have any suggestions or advice I’d deeply appreciate it. I feel really overwhelmed with the whole experience.

    (Side story about the camper on fire: The camper was parked next to the house, and when her spouse told her the camper was on fire, they rushed outside. I then grabbed my phone and purse and went outside as well. My boss then asked why I was outside. I told her because of the fire, and she then said, “The fire’s at the camper! Not in the basement!” So I guess I was supposed to keep working when there was a fire right next to the building?)

    1. Reba*

      Sounds to me like you are doing everything right (up to an including running away from fires!!). Your boss seems to have a lot going on but her denialism is not going to change things, nor should her stress keep you from filing what you need to file to get taken care of. I have no experience with this, even second hand, so I don’t know what may happen if she doesn’t carry the proper insurance. I hope you will be ok financially. See if your state has an Uninsured Employers’ fund. NOLO is a good site for legal info, although obviously not a substitute for a lawyer’s advice.

      One positive is that of the small sample size of people I know who have had the CT surgery, all had really good results (mostly musicians). Wishing you the best with treatments.

    2. WellRed*

      Your boss doesn’t have worker’s comp, which is why she’s laying the groundwork against any action by you by constantly bringing up family history, genetics etc.

    3. Artemesia*

      Why does she know you have a family history? This would be good to not share in future. Hope you get some compensation but odds are pretty low that it will be possible without spending more on lawyers than you could get.

    4. Natalie*

      Workers comp varies a lot depending on what state you are in. I would check with your state labor department (they likely have a website and/or hotline specifically about workers comp). A lot of states have an ombudsman office to assist workers in navigating the workers comp system.

      One comment on the lawyer. In many states you can sue your employer, and I’m not saying you shouldn’t do that. But lawsuits are time consuming, and winning a lawsuit doesn’t guarantee that you actually get any money – it’s on you to collect. To be blunt, small employers like yours frequently have limited insurance coverage and basically no assets, so you might find yourself with a nice big judgment and not a single penny. Before you sue, I would at least check if your state has an unemployed insurers fund, what you might get from that, and whether you can collect from that and sue.

      1. Natalie*

        Oh, just for your peace of mind – having a genetic predisposition for carpal tunnel might (MIGHT) complicate a workers compensation claim but it doesn’t somehow invalidate it. Don’t fall for her attempt to convince you that your family history means you shouldn’t bother pursuing this.

      2. DCGirl*

        If you file under workers comp, you can’t sue. The workers comp system was established specifically to provide workers with recourse without having to go to the time and expense of a law suit. It’s called an exclusive remedy. The OP can sue if the employer should have had workers comp coverage under state law (some states set a number of employees for triggering coverage, and this is a small business). But, as noted, if the employer has no assets, the OP is unlikely to get much if anything.

    5. Clorinda*

      I don’t even think that relatives getting carpal tunnel in their 40s is a family history, medically speaking, since it is an overuse injury that can strike anyone; it would be like saying someone has a family history of broken bones. You should push back hard on that. Get as much medical information as you can, and by all means, nave all further communication through a lawyer. It’s sad for her if she doesn’t have the legally required insurance and has been running a legally unsafe workplace, but don’t let that distract you from taking care of yourself.

      1. BlueWolf*

        That’s a good point. Maybe the OP’s relatives have a history of working in jobs that result in carpal tunnel from overuse, you can’t necessarily determine the causation without additional research/medical advice.

      2. WellRed*

        It could show a predisposition toward carpal tunnel. Lots of people work similar jobs and never get it.

        1. pcake*

          I have friends who have gotten carpal from working on computers, playing guitar or holding up heavy lenses during photo sessions. Everyone has a predisposition toward carpal as it’s a very weak area. Saying you have a family disposition toward carpal is pretty much like saying you have a family disposition toward needing air.

    6. jukeboxx*

      I worked with a state’s Worker’s Comp department and my best advice is to definitely lawyer up if it looks like your boss is going to make your life hell over this. My job mainly involved helping self represented claimants file their medical motions, reporting companies that refused to file injuries with workers comp, bickering with adjusters…etc, and honestly, even the best self repping claimant hardly ever won against even an ill prepared boss/company.

    7. Evil HR Person*

      Get a lawyer immediately, one that specializes in worker’s comp – you’ll see plenty if you watch TV midday. You did everything you were supposed to do on your end, now it’s your employer’s turn. A good lawyer will do one of two things: 1) force your employer to pay for your medical care; 2) sue your employer to give you the money you’ll need for your medical care. Don’t expect to become rich from a worker’s comp lawsuit; that only happens in movies (and if OSHA gets involved, which usually means there was a very serious accident and/or fatality). If a lawyer gets involved, it might solve the “not having worker’s comp insurance” portion of this problem, and it might just take a letter. But your employer will certainly drop what she’s been saying about your family. That said, carpal tunnel is a uphill battle when it comes to worker’s comp, so getting a lawyer *even when your employer has worker’s comp insurance* is a good idea all around.

      1. DCGirl*

        Anything that involves repetitive motion is an uphill battle for workers comp, and the OP can expect to have the other side explore that. I developed De Quervain Syndrome in my right hand, which is sometimes called Gamer’s Thumb because using a mouse a lot will trigger it. My attorney really had to fight to prove it was caused by my job and not by anything I was doing outside the job.

    8. cactus lady*

      This is nuts! I’m really sorry. I had success earlier this year of finding a new job when I had a surgery scheduled that I couldn’t easily reschedule – it was literally the Friday of my second week of the new job. I was upfront about it when I got the offer and my boss was really accommodating. I’d originally asked to start after I’d recovered a bit, but he wanted me to start ASAP. It was hard to start a new job and then immediately be out, and not at my peak when I returned (it was my shoulder on my dominant arm). If there is any way you could swing having surgery between this job and your next, I’d recommend that instead. Good luck!

    9. Kuododi*

      I can’t comment on Workers Comp issues. Miles out of my wheelhouse!!! It does sound like your boss is looking for a reason to bully you out of filing claim… Don’t fall for that nonsense;(. I will say having recently gotten the surgery on my left hand with plans to return to take care of the right at the beginning of Fall, Id say, do it as quickly as possible. It’s the easiest surgery I’ve ever experienced with the fastest recovery time. I had my left hand done approximately 5-6 weeks ago and I can’t find the incision site. Right now there’s just some minor skin discoloration on the base of my palm. Very best wishes

      1. Stinky Socks*

        Jumped in to add my two cents on surgery: the recovery is not bad at all. Just plan to baby your hand as much as possible while the stitches are in. Don’t put off the surgery longer than necessary, either– I foolishly did that on my left hand. There was a decent amount of scar tissue built up that the orthopedist was (thankfully) able to clean up, but his initial word to be post-surgery was that I might not get 100% relief from waiting so long.

  32. NowWhat@25?*

    I’m currently working in higher ed and was a finalist for a job at another school I was excited about. I was just rejected yesterday, so now today I have to email my references and let them know it did not work out.

    But now I’m kind of at a crossroads: do I keep applying elsewhere (maybe outside of higher ed) in hopes something sticks, even though I plan to go to back to grad school in a year or two? (Side note: it would be a degree that is not typically covered by tuition assistance since it is outside the realm of responsibility for most positions). Or, do I make the most out of my current job. Even though I’m not that happy in my position, it’s believed I could “get promoted” (aka show my job description does not match the work I am doing and have my role reclassified to a slightly better title & pay). The former is difficult since I don’t have too much time off I can actively take for the 1 days notice to come in for interviews, but the latter also has its challenges since my team has not had a manager in over a year and they have yet to post that role or appoint someone as interim manager that could make the call on reclassification.

    I just feel kind of defeated where I am and for the first time in awhile I don’t know what path I should try and take.

    1. Tara S.*

      I would keep job searching. My boss at my last job felt like I was qualified for a promotion, and worked with me to write up the packet, but grandboss wouldn’t approve it. I felt defeated, and started job searching in hopes that I could land an offer to force the promotion (I know Alison, not a good move). I ended up taking the new job I was offered and not only has it been a big bump in pay (more than the old job promotion would have been), but I have way more responsibilities and opportunities to grow now. I also wouldn’t necessarily stay where you are unhappy just because you are planning on grad school, esp. since it sounds like you aren’t planning on getting tuition remission. Plans change or can be adjusted, but no reason to waste time in a job you’re ok at when you could be developing skills in a field where you want to be.

      1. NowWhat@25?*

        Thank you! I agree; it’s just difficult because my work is seen as very niche (higher ed development and volunteer management) and when I’ve applied outside of this track, I don’t find much success. I’m trying to get more project and program management experience within higher ed and non profits. I eventually want to go to law school but taking a paralegal or legal assistant gig without any experience in that field would be a $10-15K pay cut that I can’t necessarily afford :(.

  33. LGC*

    Okay, so I meant to post this last week but got to the thread late (as in, after 11:05).

    Anyway, so one thing I’ve been struggling with is…being more assertive with my employees. I can do it to an extent, but I often find myself slipping to be more passive.

    What makes things a little more complicated is that most of my team is made up of women. (I’m a man, for the record.) I have read a lot of Alison’s scripts for dealing with employees, but…somehow, hearing them in my voice makes them sound more threatening than they should be. I’m not sure if it’s all in my head, but I think at least part of it is that I’m like, “I’m a really tall black dude, I need to be as non-threatening as humanly possible.”

    So…kind of rambling, kind of looking for advice to get out of my head and realize that it’s not going to be a disaster if I put my foot down.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Ooooh, would you want to talk this over on the AAM podcast? We could actually role-play some of it (I hate role-play so we’ll call it something else). I think this would be really interesting. (If you’re interested, email me – podcast@askamanager.org .)

      3. LGC*

        Perhaps! I’ll think it over tonight and this weekend.

        (And for what it’s worth, I HATE the term “role-playing” myself unless it’s about a game!)

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Did you listen to Alison’s podcasts on tone? Or the audio version of her book? That might help. Also, practicing with a woman in your life that you trust (a former colleague, a mentor, a friend, etc) who would be honest about how you are coming across.

      Also, I think word choice will as important as tone. Make sure you’re not using any language that could be coded as sexist.

      1. Artemesia*

        I think we make a big mistake ignoring things like up talk and fry because ‘it is gendered’ when we know it will hold women back and of course most female executives and those in authority don’t have these vocal tics. As a manager it is the OP’s job to provide feedback including about ‘tone’ and ‘authority’; yes be tactful and talk about how to rather than how not to, but don’t let concern about gendered feedback prevent feedback.

    3. Logan*

      Have you listened to Allison’s podcasts? I really like the fact that we can hear tone, and I think it would work reasonably well in your situation, despite the fact that you are a different gender. The idea of “be serious, but not emotional” works well, and I think a lot of her scripts start out with an ice-breaker comment (such as “I’ve noticed this problem, and we need to talk about it. Is there anything you would like to say first?”) which hopefully redirects away from a threatening vibe (not necessarily a physical threat, but anyone being disciplined by their boss is not going to feel good about it).

    4. LGC*

      So to answer the question about the tone episode: I have listened to that episode! (And all the episodes, actually – every Wednesday morning.) That’s actually part of what I was thinking of – I’m not quite sure if I can nail that sort of tone.

      I’ll definitely consider all of the suggestions given so far since they’re great – and pretty easy to put into action!

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        The other issue, I think, is that you’re right about being perceived differently as a black man, and that perception will play out differently at work, and maybe you *shouldn’t* nail that tone.

        My thought is that Alison’s tones are very good for women, but a little cold for men, and maybe a lot cold for black men. Women face the ‘overly emotional’ stereotype, while men face the ‘unemotional’ opposite, and black men face a ‘scary’ stereotype.

        Alison, you might want to have help / feedback for this one – either a black male manager you respect, or some audience feedback, people who hear the voice and say, ‘yes, that works’ or ‘no, it doesn’t.’

    5. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      I think one bit of advice might be to be conscious of your body language when you give feedback too, more so than your tone of voice (although that’s important too). Try and avoid standing over your employees when you talk, especially if they are at their desk — if they’re seated, take a seat, don’t lean in toward them, don’t cross your arms, don’t stand behind them. My grandboss is a large man with a booming voice although a very nice man. I’m taller than average myself, and it’s still intimidating when he’s standing over me while correcting my work no matter what his tone of voice.

  34. Estelle*

    I’m currently on maternity leave and planning to return to work around February 2019 (year long leaves are standard in my country). My question is: I’m about ready to move on from my current job and have seen one posting pop up that looks fabulous.

    Would it be too weird to apply to the job and include on my cover letter that I understand my long timeline probably won’t work for them, but that I’d be interested in chatting or being kept in mind for possible future positions. For reference, I’m a software designer so the company likely has multiple software designers on their team and while we’re by no means rare, companies do sometimes have trouble recruiting enough tech workers… so they might be willing to be a bit more flexible? Wishful thinking?

    2. Flower vase*

      I am in the exact same position and I say just go for it. It is worth a try. The worst case scenario is that you’ll end up exactly where you already are. I think mat leave is a time of life re-examination for a lot of us.

      I applied to a new role 7 months (!!!) from the end of my mat leave. (Even though all of the advice was online was “that’s nuts! You are wasting your time and theirs!”) I acknowledged really clearly that the timing sucked but that I was super interested. Didn’t hear anything, but then they re-posted the position 3 months later. I overhauled my cover letter and re-applied. I’ve had three interviews and am just waiting to hear re: the final decision. I wouldn’t be able to start until November, but they told me they’re willing to wait if I am the right candidate.

      My point is, you don’t know what is going on on their end, and it is always worth a try. Even if I don’t get this role, I am really happy I applied and got so far in the process. It has been a really good learning experience for me and a great opportunity to re-evaluate some things about my working life.

    4. A tester, not a developer*

      If you’re willing (or able) to be flexible on the timeline for your leave, I’d mention that in the cover letter. For example, my son’s daycare was willing to have him attend part time before I went back to work – if I’d been looking for a new job I definitely would have mentioned that I’d be available X times a week beginning in December, ramping up to full time in February.

    5. straws*

      Yes! Keep an open mind, but do it. I hired someone who did this for a relocation. She contacted us about our timeline when we had a job posting up, and we definitely wanted to move faster than when she’d be relocating. We liked her so much that we ended up finding a role for her by the time she moved.

  35. Violaine*

    Quick question before I am out for the rest of the day for 40th birthday shenanigans:

    I have a job starting soon as a federal contractor. Am I beholden to employment/labor laws where my contract agency is located (Texas) or where I will be physically working (Virginia)? Do federal guidelines on hours worked, breaks, etc supersede any state regulations?

      2. zora*

        OMG today is MY 40th, too!! (which i apparently “forgot” until just now, haha) High Fives!!!!

    2. Natalie*

      There is no single answer to that question, but as a general rule it’s the law wherever the employee is physically working.

    3. whistle*

      The laws where you will be physically working apply. Between federal and state regulations, the strictest regulations should apply. (e.g. State mandates paid sick leave that is not mandated at the federal level – you get the state mandated leave.)
      Happy 40th! I’ll join you in a couple months!

  36. Ask a Manager* Post author

    I’m going to need to do a standalone post on this as well, but while I’m figuring out exactly how to handle it, I’m putting this here meanwhile in the hope that frequent commenters will see it and it will help the problem: Please stop with the off-topic comments and lengthy strings of off-topic replies to off-topic comments! (I’m not talking about in the open threads, of course, but in all other posts.)

    In this morning’s short-answer post, I had to remove three separate long off-topic threads, one of them about books (which started based on a comment about someone’s user name) and two of them after I’d already asked people to stop the off-topic discussion.

    Comment threads here tend to be long and unwieldy as it is, and some people won’t even read the comments when they see a high comment number — so lengthy off-topic threads directly contribute to people getting less out of the site (and I really, really don’t want this to become a Corporette-like site where the comment section is a free-for-all).

    So for now, I’m asking for everyone’s help in being more cognizant of that and not contributing to the problem, while I figure out if there’s something more I can do about it. Thank you!

    1. Murphy*

      I apologize for my contributions to this! I appreciate your level of moderation of the comment section.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Is it helpful or does it make more work for you if someone points out that people are getting off topic?

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        It’s helpful, if it inspires people to rein it back in rather than continuing on for another 25 posts! That said, I’m hesitant to encourage that because I also really don’t like the amount of chastising one another that’s going on in the comment section recently so …

        1. Lillie Lane*

          Oh my gosh yes. And some of the chastising has been really nasty, with both sides insisting that Alison’s commenting policy is on their side.

          1. Falling Diphthong*

            The only way I know to flag things is to reply with a link to an xkcd cartoon, so it will pop up for Alison. Which would be an extra post, so counterproductive if the post isn’t “c9me see my $$ making fRoM homE cyst.” But even if we had a “report comment” button, the exact line between “pleasant aside that gives site character” and “derailment” is going to be fuzzy.

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              Yeah, people do flag things for me sometimes (by including a link so it goes to moderation and then a note like “Alison, just flagging this for you”) and I appreciate it. But it’s also true that sometimes people flag things that I think are fine so I’d just be aware that it won’t always lead to action — it will lead me to at least take a look, though.

        3. Wannabe Disney Princess*

          It’s been pretty awful. So much so it’s made me shy away from commenting as much.

        4. Not a Mere Device*

          Is it ever worth flagging these for you by dropping in an URL so my comment will go to moderation, as I sometimes do with obvious spam?

    3. Lillie Lane*

      I’m one of those people that, when trying to say something, gets talked over or others derail the conversation to a point where it’s not even worth continuing my thoughts. That’s what I feel a lot of the threads have come to. Thanks for trying to address this.

    4. Myrin*

      Would you encourage other commenters who see this happening to step in? Because of my timezone, I can usually spot the off-topics developing from very early on but I don’t want to seem like some random self-important busybody who tells others what they can and can’t talk about, at least not without your express wish!

    5. Tau*

      Thanks for the reminder! I’ve tried to keep my own tendencies on this front in check after you mentioned it a while back, but I’m pretty sure I’ve failed in the past. Shall try harder.

    6. Admin of Sys*

      Related question – would you prefer we limit the +1 or ‘I agree’ or ‘good comment’ comments, if they’re not more substantial than that? Obviously, I assume that if we have something specific to agree with / disagree with it’s permitted, but I’m wondering if the straight ‘I also agree with the above’ comments should be limited? Thanks!

    7. Jemima Bond*

      I’m afraid I’m guilty of that once in the comments about the LW who had lots of vacations booked. In my defence I just couldn’t leave it because a big generalisation had just been made about UK working practices that simply isn’t trrue and I couldn’t bear to let it lie with US readers thinking it was! But I didn’t realise it had spiralled into fifty-odd more comments and I was part of that, so apologies.
      I guess sometimes there are wrong things on the internet and one just has to get over it!

    8. Joni*

      Would it be helpful to post a starter comment at the top of the comment section reminding people to please stay on topic?

      1. Grapey*

        There’s already a “stay on topic” reminder when you type out a comment, which off topic commenters already ignore.

        I find it useful when Alison starts off with that kind of comment for a controversial thread, but doing it every time will just become another thing to ignore.

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          There’s already a “stay on topic” reminder when you type out a comment, which off topic commenters already ignore.

          It’s like a metaphor for the group email.

    9. straws*

      I’ve really liked when someone recognizes a potentially off-topic comment and makes a cheery suggestion to start an open thread topic about it.

      1. Rosemary7391*

        It would be nice if there was a more systematic way for that to happen – I don’t know if it’s possible, but Alison, can you move comments between posts? Then you could move the off topic comments and direct further comments there. Could like a current open thread from the sidebar too, to make it easier to move off topic discussions out of the way?

    10. caledonia*

      My concern about this is that you will have frequent commenters saying this which is nice but also kind of clique-y.
      TBH, more frequent moderation might help but the way the comments and the blog are these days, it’s a big beast to control.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      Suggestion:
      Indicate that each person should ask themselves “how does my post help the OP?” If it’s not obvious perhaps explain why the post might be helpful OR consider not posting that particular comment.

      For the most part, the derailments seem to happen because people actually enjoy talking with each other. I have seen some posts where a person makes a joke and the next several posters expand on that joke. It’s very funny and it’s so cool to watch. It’s also a mini-derailment.

      Unfortunately so much of this is subjective. Alison, you know I LOVE this place you created but it is you and it is the result of what you see and what you value as important.
      Sometimes I don’t understand why something is an okay derailment and something else is not. Perhaps a different angle to consider would be for people to ask themselves have they contributed something that has not been said already. I see dozens of posts that start with, “I have not read all the comments…” I caught myself doing that, too. Then I decided, either read all the comments or don’t post. Because there is no other way I will find out if someone already said the point I liked.
      One thing I had thought of is to have some posts with no comment section. Especially if you know the post will open the flood gates.
      I think in the end your best defense is to say “Rope it in folks or I will have to take early retirement because this is a lot of work.” I hope you don’t have to go there.

  37. Arya Parya*

    I’ve got a job interview monday. Wasn’t really looking, I’m happy with my current job. However this is a good job at a company I love in an industry I’m passionate about, so I figured I’d throw my name in the hat.
    So here’s what is different: I’ve already applied for this job before about 1,5 years ago. I was their runner up candidate, that’s why I felt I could try again. Now I’ve got an interview with the same two people as before. Does anyone have any experience with this? Because this is new to me. What do we talk about? They already know me a little bit and I already know about the company and the job. Any advice?

    1. Kendra*

      My closest experience was having to interact at a university club event with a recruiter from a company that had recently rejected me, but that was just an awkward “Oh, you should apply to Llama Incorporated!” “I just did and got rejected… But I like the free t-shirts you guys give out!”

      In your case, though, I would just play up your enthusiasm about the company and treat the past application as more of an unfortunate happenstance of timing rather than a personal rejection or you not being good enough or something. So if you having applied before comes up, you can just say something like “Yes, I applied about a year and a half ago. Unfortunately that time didn’t work out, but since then I’ve done ___ thing that makes me more valuable and I’m excited about this new opportunity to apply!”

    2. Quackeen*

      I would talk about experience you’ve gained in that 18 months and why you are even more qualified for the role. I would also ask why the role is open now.

    3. FaintlyMacabre*

      I’ve been in a very similar position-I applied for a job about 2 years ago, interviewed, but due to finances it was never filled. When it popped back up I applied again and interviewed. When I went into the interview, I had met two of the four interviewers before and they somewhat remembered me. When first coming into the interview, rather than the “nice to meet you”type things, I said “it’s nice to see you again” to the people I had met previously. Otherwise, they had regular interview questions to ask and I wouldn’t assume they remember you super well. In my case, some of the questions were similar to ones I had before, but others were different. I did mention previously applying to reinforce my interest in the position and how my skills had changed since the first application, but in the most part, it was just like any other job interview.

      1. Arya Parya*

        Thanks, that’s really helpful. I did mention being interviewed before in my cover letter, so they should at least be aware of it. But good to know they will probably not remember a lot of the previous interview. Which makes sense, because I don’t remember every detail of it either.

        1. FaintlyMacabre*

          Also, since I had a better idea the second time around of what the job was/challenges/etc., I made sure to think of some questions that reflected that deeper knowledge.

    4. Arya Parya*

      Thanks for all the advice. I will prepare the interview as I would any other over the weekend and just see what happens on monday.

  38. AnonyAnony*

    Things at work have been…bizarre. Lots of transition, including leadership, and reorganization. While I’ve been employed here for decades, my current role was newly created a few years ago. The leadership at that time had a clear vision for the role and responsibilities. Two years later, all of those leadership positions have turned over at least once.

    The scope of my role has changed, narrowed, and been ambiguous. When I’ve asked for clarity recently, I’m told the decision makers will talk about it, but there’s not yet been any follow up or follow through. My direct boss is brand new, only weeks into the job, so I want to be patient. But I’d also like to know what might happen with my position here because I’ve been job hunting and have interviews coming up soon (though I’m not at a point yet to have shared that I’m job hunting with my current boss). Clarity around how my current role may change will best help me consider other options more fully.

    Things are so fuzzy right now, I’m having a hard time discerning which words are true and which actions should be speaking louder to me than the words. Do I hang in and wait to see how things settle out over the next year?

    I’ve worked for the same employer for my entire career (decades) and am a bit scared to leave here at this point in my career. I’ve built up a good retirement and accumulated PTO. If I leave, much of that is gone. But I also don’t want to bypass good opportunities elsewhere now and then find myself out of a job in six months. When I mention I’m concerned about continued employment, I’m told not to worry, but then later actions lead me to believe I’m not needed or wanted.

    Any thoughts for how to balance words and actions from higher ups?

    1. Kathenus*

      This depends a lot on your position, culture, etc. but could you write up what you want your role to be, including the reasons why it’s good for the organization and why you fit that described role? I had success doing this once in a period of transition, with a coworker. We wrote up a proposed slight reorganization including our two positions, along with what we proposed our adjusted positions would be, and it was accepted. Sometimes in periods of change it’s a relief for management to have someone offer this type of idea/recommendation. But as mentioned in the first sentence, it does depend on your organization and thinking that it would be accepted positively (or at least neutrally). Good luck!

      1. AnonyAnony*

        Thanks for the suggestion. Not sure it’ll work here, but I’ll give some thought to how I maybe could broach this type of approach.

    2. JessicaTate*

      I’d say give it some time, but also keep looking for other jobs, and if a good one comes up, go for it with gusto (unless things turn around). I’ve had bad experiences with that level of turnover at the top and constant reorgs and fuzziness. Usually, actions by management are much more important than words, in my experience. But there’s also merit in giving a new boss a little time to kick butt and take names on your behalf. The longer the leadership lacks direction and gives mixed signals, the more worried I’d become.

      Basically, I was once one of the leaders who left in the tulmult, and advised one of my former staffers (who had been at the company for many years) to hang in there, but be looking and pursue other opportunities.

      Good luck!

  39. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

    How do you get to a place of serenity around the things you can’t change at work?

    I’m struggling with coworker problems, there’s nothing I can do about it, and at this point I’m not interested in leaving my job over it. I just want to get to a place of more peace about it.

    Help?

    2. J.B.*

      It depends on how these problems impact you. If you can get your own work done without being impeded, I’ve practiced focusing on doing as good a job as I can FOR ME because that is how I want to perceive myself. There can also be the challenge aspect of jumping through bureaucratic hoops or strategy to get what I need from coworker most easily.

    3. Not All Who Wander*

      No answer, just empathy!

      I’m in a “not horrible but continuously irritating” job where my manager is not the most competent person I’ve ever worked for (to say the least), the position isn’t at all what I was told, I hate the location, and the mission isn’t very fulfilling. But for various reasons to do with my specialty being very out of favor in the current administration, I probably won’t be going anywhere for at least a year or two.

      Trying to not to join in the continuous venting with coworkers and to shrug of the near weekly drama over something that fell through the cracks or the blatant favoritism (mostly related to gender) is something I’m struggling with for sure!

    4. Tina*

      I recommend looking into mindfulness and meditation – I know Oprah has a podcast my mom keeps suggesting to me.

      1. nd*

        Was going to suggest meditation. I have a very difficult co-worker (and I can usually work with anyone). Within a few weeks of starting a regular meditation practice, the co-worker suddenly became much less difficult. Really, it was my own perception and relaxed way of coping with the co-worker and issues caused by the co-worker. Amazing.

    5. Kathenus*

      You’re already halfway there in that you recognize that there’s nothing you can do about it and that you want to come to peace with that fact. This is an example of where something is simple, but not easy. Simple in that you acknowledge the situation, have evaluated and determined that you can’t change it, and have three main choices – you can’t accept it so you leave (which you don’t want to do), you can’t accept it but you stay and are unhappy and frustrated (which hurts only you), or you accept it and try to ignore/minimize it as much as you can since it’s a fact of the situation that you have no power to change. Simple and straightforward, but not at all easy to do in reality.

      Sometimes it helps me to do the pros/cons lists like when evaluating a new job, which can help you identify and re-focus on the things that you do like and try to give them more ‘power’ than the negative things that you can’t affect. And maybe think of a coping strategy, depending on the nature of the coworker problem – headphones, schedule breaks/lunches at different times to minimize time around them, view their behavior like a scientist studying an odd species, or whatever. Basically it comes down to acknowledging and accepting that this is the situation, you can’t change it, you want to stay, and then trying to lessen its power to make you unhappy.

      Best of luck, I wish I could do it easily myself. Sometimes it works for me, other times it’s a lot harder, but since I’ve tried to look at it more analytically it’s helped me cope.

    6. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Here’s what I do, and have varying amounts of success.

      *Force myself to gain perspective. Sometimes it’s physically saying out loud. “Well such and such sucks, but nobody else seems to think it’s a problem, so I won’t either”
      *Embrace my inner apathy (this round is usually following a burnout cycle)
      *Focus on doing what I can, sometimes it’s just continuing to bring to the attention the problems to those that can do something about it. (I spent years doing this about a coworker, and finally something was done about it)
      *Make your problems someone else’s problem. Related to above… So if you have a coworker who is not performing or not doing their job then make sure that their boss is engaged and make sure that they are feeling some of that pain.
      *Not serious but sort of serious… start finding the gallows humor about your coworker…
      Bob bingo – with a card full of Bobisms that frustrate you.
      Laugh inwardly at the things that drive you up the wall (usually accomplished by internal snarky
      comments)
      Gather ammunition for “Whose Coworker Sucks More” competitions with friends.

    7. Admin of Sys*

      I try to embrace the ‘not my circus, not my monkeys’ mindset as much as possible. If their actions are not directly impeding your success or your projects, then try to disassociate their actions from your concern. They are a random person that you are forced into nearby cohabitation with for the length of the workday, but they’re not your problem.
      If they’re doing something that makes their own life harder, let them do so and hope they’ll figure it out soon – everyone has to learn on their own not to touch the hot stove. If they’re doing something that makes someone else’s life harder (but not yours), then assume that they’re both adults and the other person can handle the conflict themselves, or ask for help if needed. If they’re doing something that’s making /your/ life more difficult, then it sounds like you’ve decided that it’s not worth the complication and you’re not going to rock the boat, so embrace that attitude (but make sure to re-run the cost / gain equation occasionally, lest they get elevated to a BEC while you’re silently enduring).
      And if they’re doing something that you think is damaging the company / project / group / etc but no one else seems to agree, consider that the other folks involved may have more or different data than you do. I’m generally inclined to go the route of : express and document your concerns and then let things continue, secure in the knowledge that either the situation will evolve and eventually prove you right, or that whatever information you don’t know makes the coworkers worth it.

    8. BRR*

      I’m not sure if this applies to your situation but for my coworker issues I’ve employed sort of not caring about things. My coworker’s work quality is poor. I’ve taken the necessary steps to try and fix it and nothing has happened I’m letting that fire burn when their are mistakes. I’m also asking for more since it’s impacting me (aka a direct report). My cubicle neighbor is constantly shouting across the entire office so I don’t care if I ask them to either get up or use email so I can focus.

    9. zora*

      As someone who struggled with this while in a nonprofit, I basically developed a visualization. I imagined an actual Caring Button. Like a big red, flashing, lit up button in my brain, and when I found myself getting frustrated, I would turn it off (and the light would go off) while I would silently verbalize “I am turning off my Caring Button for the day! And just focusing on XYZ instead.” And sometimes I would have to reup it during the day, but it really was about emotionally distancing myself and the intentional reminder really helped.

      And then the breathing and the headphones/music would help me focus on my work and ignore those distractions.

  40. rosenstock*

    re: legal nonprofit jobs

    i’ve been working at a corporate law firm (biglaw, financial stuff, etc.) as a litigation paralegal for a few years now. i’ve done mostly typical biglaw stuff but have worked on a few pro bono cases. i really want to transfer to a legal nonprofit similar to the aclu or something in that family. i live in a major city where many nonprofit branches live. for nonprofit folks: are these skills transferable? i feel like a lot of job postings want a background in human rights work, but i know i am a great paralegal/litigation support person. thank you in advance!

    1. The JMP*

      Generally speaking, yes, those skills are transferable. I think this is where a really great cover letter will help a lot. Use the cover letter to demonstrate that you have the larger, overarching skills (organization, prioritization, legal research, etc.) that are relevant to the nonprofit role. You may have slightly better luck applying to positions where paralegal work is similar to the private law firm world (something like Legal Aid), but I think you can make the case that those skills transfer to most kinds of nonprofit legal work.

      One of the things that I screen for most closely when I’m hiring from outside the field is that the person knows what they’re getting into – i.e., they understand, even if they don’t have experience with, the day-to-day realities of our work. So for a paralegal coming from a BigLaw background, I would want to make sure they can excel in a job with much more limited resources, where they’ll be expected to wear various hats, where the environment is a lot less structured and a lot more fast-paced, and where they’ll be expected to take a significant amount of initiative. Of course not all hiring managers will focus on that, and not all nonprofit paralegal jobs are similar to the ones I hire for. But I do think it’s worth demonstrating that you understand the realities of the job.

      If possible, I’d also suggest you use your network. Your firm likely has great connections with the nonprofits in your city.

      1. rosenstock*

        thank you, this is SO helpful! i’ve been fortunate enough to work with some partners who are well connected to a few big nonprofits so i will try to capitalize on that when i’m ready to move on :)

    2. PDXJael*

      Yes, the skills are transferable. In my experience having the legal background is actually more attractive than the nonprofit stuff, because “human rights” type work can be so varied (like people counting spring break mission trips as experience). But it will depend on who is hiring and where their head is. Be prepared for more erratic work environments and lower pay, though!

    3. nd*

      Yes! Very transferable. In my experience (director at a non-profit), many organizations are funded by a variety of grants with various compliance requirements. Someone who is able to read and understand contracts as well as laws and regulations is very valuable. Many non-profits will contract with law firms for actual legal work, but having someone on staff who can deal with the day-to-day compliance work would be super helpful. This type of position would be most likely an administrative position.

  41. PX*

    Any product owner/managers around? How much involvement do you have in ‘minor’ details of the product (eg UI elements; wording of help messages etc)? Cant tell if part of my frustration with my current role is that because our team is small I’m more involved than I would like to be (eg we have no real UI person so our BA and I am left to our own devices) – or if this is just part of the role?

    Am also struggling mightily with just wanting this to be done. Learning that while I like a lot of this role, I also like variety, and just being stuck focusing on one thing is…driving me a bit crazy.

    1. I guess I am a product owner*

      Product owner here! I can’t speak to how standard this is, but my team definitely provides guidance, review, and sign-off to UI design and error messages, although we don’t actually create it.

      1. I guess I am a product owner*

        (Also yes, variety is key and it is not crazy to want it or think you might be able to get it. Make sure your management knows you value diversity in your work.)

      2. PX*

        Ah this. This is what I’d like. Someone to just come up with the draft and I can review it. Currently I’m stuck doing a lot of this from scratch and…it just takes up so much time. Good to know that in an ideal world I could just review things!

        And re:diversity, yes. I definitely plan on letting my boss know that for next year I’d like to have a bit more variety in my work…

    2. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      If it helps at all I’m considered a business owner on my web project from hell and I am involved in all of this.

      Personally I think it’s crazy that I’m allowed darn near 100% control of our customer facing, very public, web portal. But hey… what could go wrong, right?

      1. PX*

        Ahahaha I feel your pain. At least our team acknowledges that we do need a proper UI person (and are finally getting one…alas, a bit too late for me, but still). But yes, part of me is like – I am not equipped to do this. I do not have the skills. But I guess its happening!

  42. nep*

    I used the word ‘cacophony’ in a cover letter the other day.
    Yup.
    I hadn’t set out to do so…it came to me (to use in the opening graf, no less) as I was finishing up the letter.

    Good luck to all the job-seekers out there. It seems as if nothing will open up, until it does.

      1. nep*

        Ha. Didn’t see it coming but I had a moment of inspiration for a sentence up high, and it seemed to fit. Hope employer / hiring manager likes it.

        1. The Dread Pirate Buttercup*

          I would want to work for a place that liked that I used “cacaphony” in my cover letter.

    2. The Dark Fantastic*

      Is that unusual? It doesn’t seem like a surprising word to me, but I’m not in the US so maybe it’s a context thing?

  43. Blue Eyes*

    Currently unemployed and have been job hunting a few months. I don’t find many good jobs I can apply to (ones that I meet all the requirements for, that I think I’d be good at, that should pay about what my previous salary was, and that don’t have any of my deal breakers like a super long commute).

    I know the longer you’re unemployed, the less desirable you become. How many months can I safely continue to look for a good job before I become blacklisted?

    1. Amber Rose*

      Any amount of months as long as you are doing something in that time that you can explain in an interview. Volunteering is a good one, but lots of people spend time unemployed for one reason or another and employers understand that.

      1. Blue Eyes*

        I would hope employers would be understanding about long periods of unemployment, but I worry because I’ve seen posts/comments here that said after 6 months people start to wonder what’s wrong with you that you haven’t been able to find a job yet. All the posts/comments were several years old, so I figured maybe the number of months has lessened/increased in the current job market. (I keep hearing about how unemployment rates are supposedly low, so I’d think that doesn’t bode well for people who remain unemployed long term.)

        1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

          To give you at least one hiring manager’s perspective. Yes, I’m going to look at gaps, under 6 months I’m not going to look too hard. 6+ I’m going to start to wonder what’s going on. If it’s helpful here are the questions that are going through my head for the 6+ gaps…

          *Has there been a relocation, can be harder to establish oneself in a new area
          *Is there anything that indicates the reason for the large gap (I used to live and work in an area where a large cell provider was located. Seemed like every 6-9 months they had a significant lay off, I would assume if your previous position was that employer you had the bad luck of trying to find similar jobs of 200 of your previous coworkers at the same time.
          *Do you bring something significant to the table skill wise.
          *Unemployment rates/trends. As you say, in an established hot employee market the longer the gap the more I’m going to wonder what all the other employers know (think of it when you are in a strange city and on a Friday night a restaurant parking lot is empty… without anything else, I’m going to figure the locals know something I don’t about the place and pass)
          *Are your skills stale (more important in tech, but still important in other roles)

          All that being said, if your resume shows the right skills then I won’t let a gap become a deal breaker, but it would be topic in the interview and I’d need some convincing that there isn’t an issue.

        2. Bend & Snap*

          It took me 7 months to find a new job as an employed person. 6 months from employed to unit sounds insane.

    2. nep*

      Dude if it’s only months I’m already blacklisted to infinity. (Well I’m working VERY part-time–been severely underemployed for a couple years now.)
      I feel your frustration. It’s been a good month or so I’ve not seen any openings that are suitable.
      Best of luck.

      1. Blue Eyes*

        I’d been underemployed (before becoming unemployed) for a long time too. Really takes a toll mentally.

        Virtual fist bump of solidarity for the lack of suitable jobs!

      2. Artemesia*

        If it is at all applicable to your work that is what free lance and consulting are made for.

          1. nep*

            (Did a good bit of freelancing in the past–just has not panned out during this period. Again–yet.)

    3. Indefinite Contract Attorney*

      10/10 recommend volunteering. Not only is it an answer to “what have you been up to,” but you never know who you might meet–who might know someone who is hiring.

      1. Blue Eyes*

        I was always unsure about the volunteering suggestion. I did a couple unpaid/volunteer positions as internships in school, and it generally took a couple months to get one set up (most places that had volunteers didn’t have any openings). And it seems unkind to have organizations invest time in training me, only to leave as soon as I get a job. (I can’t make any long-term commitments since I have no idea what my hours will be like if I find employment again.)

        1. Artemesia*

          Many places will continue to have a role for people who can volunteer part time and occasionally while they are working. Pick a place that you might have a continuing relationship with.

        2. Indefinite Contract Attorney*

          There’s a HUGE difference between an unpaid internship and volunteering, even when they could be related, they aren’t really the same. While it’d be bomb to be able to volunteer in whatever your career path/role is, there are still THOUSANDS of nonprofits that need help with routine daily stuff–landscaping, walking dogs, serving breakfast at a shelter, reading books to kids, cleaning and organizing, driving a van, the possibilities are endless. When volunteers step up to help with little things, it frees up staff to handle the larger items they have to handle, but are usually too busy with the day-to-day to take care of.

    4. PieInTheBlueSky*

      I hope I’m not nitpicking here, but I think you should consider applying to a job posting that you like even if you don’t meet _all_ of the requirements listed. Of course it depends on the type of job and which requirements you do or don’t meet, but if you met 75% of the requirements you should definitely consider applying. Even if it’s only 50%, I’d suggest you consider it.

      1. Blue Eyes*

        Not nitpicking! I did read a few articles on how and why you should apply for jobs that you aren’t a perfect match for when I first started job hunting.

        But anytime I’ve applied for something I’m not 100% qualified for I either don’t hear back from the company, or I end up doing a phone screening where they grill me on the experience or knowledge I don’t have and didn’t claim to have (and then I don’t hear back from them unless it’s a rejection). It’s hard to muster up the motivation to go through the whole application process for something where I’m likely going to end up explaining how I’m unqualified.

    5. The New Wanderer*

      I’ve now been unemployed for 13 months. I was a finalist for a position at Very Well Known Tech Company at the 8 month mark and only had two questions about the time off – one was the standard “why did you leave your last job,” and the other was a casual “so how’ve you been spending your time off” type question. Several times in 2018 interviewers seemed to think I was still at my previous job even though my resume clearly indicates it ended during 2017. They didn’t seem put off when I clarified that I was laid off in 2017 and am fortunately able to wait for the right opportunity.

      So, I don’t think it always matters to employers, and it shouldn’t because some fields are just harder to find jobs in than others, and it’s not like I can just … stop looking forever if I’ve exceeded some kind of expiration date.

    6. Crylo Ren*

      Can you do some freelancing through Upwork or similar during this time? Otherwise, seconding the volunteering option. If nothing else, it will be something to fill your time, and it may lead to another opportunity.

      Yes, it will be harder to explain as time goes on, but as long as you can explain what you have been doing and come up with ways you were adding value to some organization during that time, I would think the employer you’d want would understand. Good luck.

  44. BirthdayWeek*

    What’s the protocol for sending a thank you email to a phone screen ‘interview’? Overkill or couldn’t hurt?

    1. nep*

      Did the person doing the phone screen talk about next steps? Perhaps just an email acknowledging that/noting that you look forward to next steps/speaking further, and adding a thank you.

      1. BirthdayWeek*

        That’s a good point. She mentioned ‘following up if we choose to move forward’ which is pretty boiler plate.

        1. nep*

          Yes–I wouldn’t think it would be overkill to send a quick email saying something along the lines of pleasure talking w/ you, look forward to speaking further, thanking her for her time…
          Short, matter-of-fact.

  45. Marina*

    A coworker was promoted and there is a lot of petty gossip, jealousy, and remarks about it…. sheesh, shouldn’t we be happy? What is wrong with people? Can anyone relate?

    1. Morning Glory*

      Is the coworker a good performer, and generally a good colleague? I’ve worked with many people where I would be happy for them, but a few people where I definitely would not have been happy to see them promoted.

      1. Ashlee*

        Agreed. We have had a good bit of staff turnover recently, which is very unusual for us, and unfortunately, the nepotism has kicked into overdrive. Long term employees with excellent records are being overlooked so managers can get their friends hired/promoted, so it’s hard to be happy when the people who get promoted spend 95% of their time gossiping, on their phones and taking long lunches and their responsibilities get pushed onto coworkers who were overlooked.

    2. mkt*

      I also have a few coworkers who constantly complain, gossip and waste time on mean-spirited speculation about other coworkers and why they are rewarded/recognized/promoted and not them. And I mean in the vein of comments on appearances, gross favors, that sort of thing.

      So yeah, some people are just miserable, petty and not fun to be around.

  46. psychresearcher*

    Is it okay that I leave for lunch even when my team doesn’t? I am lead on a team of four. We typically don’t have time to leave for lunch, so we’ll bring our lunch and eat in the office–everyone on the team is fine with this. Once or twice a month, we do have time to leave. On these occasions, I always remind the team that we do have time for them to actually leave for a full one-hour lunch break, but often no one will take advantage of this (mostly because they already brought a lunch, it’s cheaper not to buy something, they’re used to just staying at work for lunch, they have no errands to run, etc). I can’t force them to leave of course, but I appreciate the opportunity to get out of the office occasionally, whether to buy lunch or (more often) run errands. But since I’m the team lead, are the “optics” of this such that I shouldn’t be leaving if they don’t?

    1. Annie Moose*

      I’m inclined to say that the optics are better if you DO leave the office when you have the chance, to make it clear to everyone else that that’s a valid option for them as well! If my boss was like, “you can leave for lunch” but never left the office herself, I might question whether she actually meant it (or if she’d secretly be judging me for leaving).

    2. Batty Twerp*

      Other people might differ to me on this, but if my team lead did this, I’d take it as a sign of encouragement. “Look, if I do this, it’s fine for you to do it too.”
      I’m wording this badly, but essentially, some people will be reluctant to do something, *unless* their team lead/manager/supervisor does it too – just hearing it isn’t the same as being shown that it’s okay.

      (please could someone who’s not at the end of a very long working day put that into words that make more sense?!)

    3. Free Meerkats*

      I don’t see any reason for you to not leave.

      But, do you know these days are coming so you can give them a head’s up? I know if I’ve made my lunch I’m likely to stay and eat it fresh rather than letting it stale overnight and eat it the next day.

    5. CBE*

      If you WANT them to use the ability to leave, then you need to model that it’s okay for them to leave. So get out of the office when you have the chance!

    6. CMart*

      Leave! Please!

      I eat at my desk and “work through lunch” most days, but I do that because I tend to flit back and forth between actual work and dithering around (see: AAM dithering at this very moment). When my supervisor actually leaves his desk for lunch I feel a lot freer to dedicate my lunchtime to taking a true break.

      Just because they’re still in the office doesn’t mean they aren’t taking a well deserved break. Besides, not having to go anywhere means your break feels longer!

  47. Ailin*

    I’m trying to decide whether I should report a thief when I don’t know who the thief is and I don’t have proof. I work as a CNA for a caregiving agency. Basically my job is travel to different clients’ houses and provide personal care and also do basic housekeeping and errand running. It’s not a fulfilling job, the pay is low, and it’s not my passion. I’m just doing it while I’m in school to do something better. Anyhow, I have a client who I only visit work for about a week for 12 hours but has 24/7 care by somebody in the agency. Anyhow, I notice things go missing suspicially sometimes. For example, on the Valentine’s candy was 2 days after my client purchased it. My client’s whisky disappears faster than she could possibly drink it. And most recently is the coffee. Last Friday I bought her 4 boxes of instant coffee packets. I come back today and there’s 2 packets left. That’s it. All the boxes are gone. She drinks coffee once per day, so in 6 days, it’s not possible for her to have had all that coffee.

    The problem is, I’m not here when the other caregivers are here. I have a hunch on who is doing it, but no proof. How can I bring this up when I don’t have evidence? I feel like it should be discussed with management, but I don’t want to be a boy who cries wolf. Whoever works here also has easy access to narcotics, so I do believe it can lead to a serious problem. Any advice?

    1. Washi*

      I think you should say something! 1. It’s not fair to your client that someone keeps stealing her stuff 2. It won’t look good for you if someone else notices and you don’t say anything. I don’t think you need to accuse anyone, just provide the facts calmly, including any patterns you’ve noticed, and let management do what they need to do. (I’m sure they have a procedure to follow and it will not be the first issue of this type that they have investigated)

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      You bought coffee that disappeared faster than she could have drank it. That is evidence, unless she has personal visitors that you’re aware of. It’s not crying wolf to say “I’ve noticed some of Jane’s food and drinks are used up more quickly than she’d be using them on her own, and I just wanted to make you aware of it.” Especially since whiskey and narcotics are part of the mix – it’s one thing to “borrow” some coffee, but if there’s a possibility someone is “borrowing” alcohol while they’re providing care, that definitely needs to be investigated.

    3. Nita*

      Considering you’re seeing food/drink items go missing, is it possible that your client is treating one of the caregivers to them? Or their own family members, when they come to visit? Back when my grandma was well enough to walk around (but sick enough to have a home health aide) she took great offence if one of the grandkids stopped by, and left without something to eat.

      1. Ailin*

        That’s why I’m reluctant to bring it up! I’m worried there’s a reasonable explanation somewhere. But if she is giving it to caregivers, that’s actually in the rules of our agency. We’re not allowed to eat any food that belongs to the client. I’m sure it’s to avoid things like this happening. Also, her family all lives hours away. She also insists that she didn’t give the coffee out to anyone and was as surprised as I was to find it all gone.

        1. Nita*

          In that case, it does look someone is stealing from her. I do think you should put the agency on alert, and if you have any evidence who it may be, share that also – if not, only tell them what you know. It’s possible someone already has mentioned the problem to them, and they may be able to narrow down who it is. Or maybe they can just switch the suspect to another case where they’re less likely to do damage (no access to narcotics, more involvement by the client’s family…)

        2. Rusty Shackelford*

          She also insists that she didn’t give the coffee out to anyone and was as surprised as I was to find it all gone.

          Then you have evidence. Tell someone.

        3. That Would be a Good Band Name*

          The only other thing I would consider is if she is in the beginning stages of Alzheimer’s or dementia. My grandmother would hide things or use things and not realize (remember) that she had done it. So, where a morning cup of coffee was normal, she might have that morning cup three times because she didn’t realize she’d already made it. I’d still mention it to your boss, because the cause of this things disappearing still needs to be figured out – whether there is a thief or if your client might start needing different care.

    4. Notthemomma*

      I feel you have a duty to report and document what you have noticed. Maybe ants got into the candy, or your client had company that used up the coffee ; trying to say there could be a valid reason. However, there could be other item and/or clients being stolen from and if someone else reports, then you would be a suspect as well. Does your company have documented procedures? If not, alert your supervisor and document that you did so.

    5. CBE*

      Say something! Maybe mention it to the client. “Wow! You went through that coffee fast. Did you have guests?”
      If client doesn’t know what happened, take it to your boss.

    6. Tina*

      You should do your due diligence and see if you can ask your client about it – especially if it’s something you bought. Ask her if she drank all of the coffee! And then talk to your manager about it – unless you’re the manager with no one above you.

    7. Artemesia*

      You need to say something immediately. It is happening; it is just the worst for caregivers of vulnerable people; only thing worse is actual abuse. It is not your responsibility to figure out who is doing it. But it is your responsibility to note precisely what you have observed. The coffee packets are perfect — someone could argue that the client drank the whiskey, but a couple of boxes of coffee packets gone very quickly when the client rarely drinks a cup — not possible. And if it turns out the client gave them to someone else (not a caregiver) or whatever that will come out. This is a terrible pattern and the agency needs to investigate asap.

    8. LCL*

      I’m sure your agency has a policy about who to report to in these situations. And I’m sure you have an obligation to report this. So ask your supervisor what your next step is. You don’t have to prove anything. You don’t make accusations, even. You report what you witnessed. Reporting these things is just like writing a story for the newspaper, you only report the facts as you know them. It’s the obligation of the person who takes the report to start the process.
      And thank you for being a decent human and handling this. My dear friend did in home care for a while. If she thought this kind of thing was happening she would report it ASAP, even though in her personal life she wouldn’t contact any authorities for any reason.

    9. Evil HR Person*

      I worked for a company that had an ethics compliance hotline, and you could call in an anonymous tip and the company HAD to investigate. Does your company have this? If so, use it – the company pays good money for it. I’m bringing it up because most healthcare companies do have this. The number should be in your handbook. Otherwise, if they don’t have a compliance line, tell your supervisor what you’ve noticed and then your ethical obligation is fulfilled. I would write everything down that you’ve noticed because, remember, your license is as much in jeopardy as someone else’s until they can pinpoint the culprit. It might not even be someone in your agency! It could be a neighbor or family member. There’s no way to know, though, until someone above you investigates.

  48. BottleBlonde*

    Update on my intern who wanted 6 work days off for his dog dying – after posting the question in the last Open Thread and reading the responses, I realized I was letting my childhood memories of losing a dog cloud my judgment and that of course this was not a reasonable request from a five-week intern. I reached out to him (using recommendations from commenters and Alison’s script – thanks again, everyone!) to express my sympathies but to let him know that we would really need him back in the office sooner than next week. I did decide to allow him an additional day off since doing so wouldn’t be a hardship and seemed in line with my organization’s culture.

    His response was less-than-agreeable, which I sort of expected given my experiences with him to date. He told me that there was “absolutely no way” he could even think about work while “completely grief-stricken.” At this point I let him know that I understood his pain, that everyone in the office would understand if he was a bit quiet or not quite himself, and (gently) let him know that this expectation was not far outside the norm – employees at our organization only get *three days* off for the death of an immediate (human) family member. He insisted that it wouldn’t be possible for him and instead let me know he would just work “super-long days” next week to fit in his final 60 required hours before the end of the internship. Despite the tempting offer to spend 12-hour days in the office supervising an intern all next week, I restated the expectation and again asked him if he could make it work. He again said there was “no way” and so we decided it made sense to end the internship there.

    Honestly, I feel like he’s been kind of “done” with the internship and was looking for a defensible way of getting out of finishing it, so I’m not totally surprised. If it were me and I’d already gone through all the trouble of applying to internships, interviewing, and then actually showing up and working for most of the session, I’d probably do whatever was necessary to make sure I could finish strong and have the class credit and reference to show for it. But alas, we are not our interns!

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Good for you standing your ground. He’s going to have a hard time navigating in the professional world after he graduates.

          1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

            He learned that it doesn’t fly in this instance, as an intern. Whether or not he’ll apply the lesson more broadly will remain to be demonstrated, but if nothing else, he’s got an undeniable datapoint to work with.

            1. CMart*

              I think it depends how “we decided it made sense to end the internship there” actually went down, and how the intern is telling himself that story.

              It’s possible he learned that taking time off for something that’s so far outside a company’s norm will cost you your job.

              It’s also possible (and imo, more likely) his takeaway was “my internship employer was completely unreasonable and so I stood my ground and quit on principle.” Or perhaps “they fired me because my dog died, can you believe it??” Or even “well, it’s nice they let me finish my internship early.”

              1. BottleBlonde*

                Yes, with this particular intern, I do believe his takeaway will be, “I was forced to quit my internship because the heartless company wouldn’t give me time off to grieve.” At no point did I want to let him go; if, after all the blown-out reactions, he acquiesced and agreed to come into work this week, I absolutely would have let him finish out the summer session.(It would have affected the way I evaluated him, but I would have still let him finish his hours and earn the class credit.) I’m sure he thinks I’m the unreasonable one here, but with a little distance and perspective, I hope he’s able to learn something from this.

      2. irene adler*

        I agree. Good for you. Interns should come away from internships having learned something about the work world. You imparted a very important lesson.
        Not easy sometimes. For you and the intern.

        I bet there’s more to this time off. And that’s why he’s so adamant in having 6 days off. Perhaps he’d planned a getaway somewhere?

        1. BottleBlonde*

          This was my boss’s guess, and while I don’t *want* to default to assuming he was lying, I think it’s a pretty likely scenario. Otherwise, why would you ask for a week-plus right off the bat?

          1. Artemesia*

            We’ll probably see him at lollapalooza. He probably didn’t even have a dog. Next time he will make it a grandparent.

      3. BottleBlonde*

        Thank you. I agree, he really seemed surprised when I told him he couldn’t just squeeze in his hours whenever it pleased him. Not how I like to end things, but what can you do, I guess.

        1. Nonna*

          Sounds like you did the right thing! Still not great it had to go down this route. (And shame about the missed credits, I would definitely have sucked it up and gone into the office, but alas not the whole world is like that.) (And I would also be tempted to be a bit of an internet stalker and check his social media whether he’s on holiday or not….)

          We had an intern who also was very confused about the concept of showing up to the office on time. He was the last one in, every day, by 30-45 min after most everyone started. It just didn’t click he had to show up on time, even after telling him multiple times. He also didnt perform all the tasks given to him (mostly the more boring tasks were simply never done). Instead he was very much into other things, like getting qualified for a special kind of paid leave (ironically the only topic that he ever researched very well). But yeah he was let go. And then in the exit interview he complained about not getting any interesting projects… it was not a great experience and wish it could have gone differently but indeed what can you do sometimes (first time an intern was let go there) but I do sincerely hope intern learned something from it. Sometimes you just can’t talk sense into people; or make them see how something may look from the other side.

          1. BottleBlonde*

            Thank you! I am a bit tempted to check social media haha. I really don’t feel like he cared about the credits at all. The first time he called me to ask for time off for the dog (initially he just asked for last Friday off, then it morphed into last Friday + this entire week), I offered to call his university’s internship coordinator to discuss the process for excusing absences, and he was adamantly against it, saying he could “manage his own time.” Ok? We could have at least explored other options but he wasn’t interested. Honestly it reinforces my suspicion that he was being dishonest.

            Sounds like a tough situation with your intern as well. I did have one intern last summer who was fine, she completed all of her work and was pleasant to work with, but at the exit interview, she told us the internship was “mostly boring” and she was disappointed she wasn’t allowed to work on more exciting projects. When I asked her what she had in mind, she described something that did sound exciting – far more exciting than anything we actually do in my department! If she had told me how she felt at any of our check-ins during the summer, I could have at least tempered her expectations. Not exactly sure what that intern is up to now – I hope it’s exciting her though.

  49. Bee's Knees*

    This week in a Small Town Newsroom

    After about two weeks of trying to track down an answer, I finally found out how to order our office supplies. The person who was the Purchaser of Pens and Paper left, so it’s now part of my job, but no one knew how to do it. Thankfully, we now have most of the stuff we were supposed to get. Also, I’m thinking about quitting and going into the office supply business, because $20 for four plastic binders seems like quite a profit margin.

    Fergus is insistent that yellow legal pads are the only ones that will work, not white. I really wanted to order white, because I’m mean and petty like that, but did not.

    I was out sick yesterday, and forgot that it was Election Day. On Election Day, we have to stay late so when the reporters call in the numbers from the different precincts, we can post them to the website. Boss did not mention anything about it on Wednesday, so I don’t feel too bad that I missed it.

    It’s really hard to talk on the phone when you can’t breathe. I answered the same as I always do, and one of the funeral homes I deal with regularly didn’t’ believe it was me for a minute. Even though I have a stuffy nose, I’m pretty sure I still sound more or less like myself.

    Farquad was on the phone this morning, talking to someone about our archives. Due to a computer error, they only go back to the early 90’s. The library had the older ones on microfiche. He’s insisting to the person on the phone that if he checks our archives, he can find what he’s looking for from the 60’s. I’m waving my arms to get his attention, and when it looks like I’m trying to land a plane, he finally turns to look. I explained to him that we don’t have them. He then does an about face on the phone, and acts like he’s said to check the library the entire time.

    Fergus finally explained to me his phone call system, and I no longer wonder why a great many people won’t deal with him anymore. He starts by calling every 10 minutes (At around 7:30 a.m., mind you) and does that about three times. Then every five minutes, then every three. Ugh. The more I work with him, the more I’m glad he doesn’t call me.

    One of my coworker just told me she feels like she should tell me to go lay down, so I must not be holding up as well as I thought. This afternoon might find me snoozing on the couch in the ladies’ room. That’s right, we have a couch in the bathroom. We’re fancy like that.

    Finally, I leave you with an election night story from Neighboring Small Town where my parents and I live. Mom says they saw all sorts of people they knew when they went to vote, then were reminded to get a corndog for dinner on their way out.

    2. Funbud*

      I had to chuckle reading your posting. I once worked for a small town(ish) newspaper. It was over 100 yeas old butt was owned at the time by Gannett (probably still is) and today it’s reduced down to a four or six page sheet. When I worked there it had two to four sections covering local news, local sports, lifestyle, etc, plus a thicker Sunday edition. It covered a fairly large suburban area around a small city. The paper was originally located in the city, but relocated to the ‘burbs in the wake of the racial unrest of the late 1960s. Local residents remembered this and held a grudge against the paper. They would literally (and constantly mention) this when they called up requesting something. Phone calls went like “Hello, I’d like to place a for sale ad in the paper. By the way, your newspaper sucks ever since they moved out of Anytown…”. This happened every day! But they did still have the archives on microfiche right in the office. Part of my job, when I had time, was to go in and look up requests for obituaries, etc, which came in by mail. Snail mail. This was how long ago I worked there. It was fun to look up the old newspapers, particularly the advertisements! Some of the type setting was still done by hand and some by those new fangled computers. The typesetters (who were unionized) were in a constant battle with the advertising staff as to how the size of ads, what type faces could be used, clarity of artwork, etc. Screaming matches, cursing were routine. I think they would sometimes sabotage the ad copy (subtly) of sales people they didn’t like. Fun!
      I eventually moved on and moved away . I hadn’t thought about that job for years when I happened to be back in the area and drove by the location of the offices/printing plant. It was gone. Demolished. Not a single brick left. I looked at the newspaper website and their offices are now a couple of rooms on some sad side street. Don’t know where it’s printed these days. Every mention of “working for a newspaper” brings back memories of that place! I hope the archives went to the public library.

    3. Mrs. Picklesby*

      Bee’s Knees,
      I eagerly await your weekly updates. Sorry to hear that you aren’t feeling great this week.
      Question: why does one get a corndog after voting? I could totally jump on that bandwagon. I mix up a fancy-pants sauce of mostly mustard and some ketchup, and I especially enjoy when the bottom part (where the stick meets the dog) is crunchy and almost burnt. Yum!
      Hope you feel better soon.

      1. Jaid_Diah*

        I know that my supermarket sells ’em in the frozen case. Once in a great while I get a craving…

        Ooo, I just remembered that Reading Terminal in Philadelphia has a corn dog stand. They fancy it up something awesome.

    4. Princess Scrivener*

      Bee’s Knees, I doubt you’re mean and petty. Acerbic and droll, maybe. In any case, I’ve got a recurring Outlook task set up to find your posts every Friday. Thank you!

  50. Saradactyl*

    Just a bit of a vent/rant about job hunting and unemployment – I resigned from my job (planned months in advance) a month and a day ago exactly and I’m still looking for work. I’ve applied to temp stuff, retail stuff, and full-time work without much more than a couple nibbles. I had a phone interview and a video interview the day after with a brand-new startup and I was supposed to hear back by this week; the manager never responded to my follow-up/thank you email but did post the job opening in a recruitment Facebook group I’m a member of. I’m trying not to take it too personally, but I am really frustrated and kind of hurt that he had the time to do that but not send a cursory rejection email to me too. Then I had a phone interview scheduled for a youth ministry position (something I actually care about a lot) and the rector canceled on me the day of and hasn’t responded to my email asking about rescheduling.

    I just…I’m frustrated and pretty hurt, y’all. It’s like online dating but maybe even worse. I’m tired of getting strung along; just reject me or email me back one way or another so I can move on!! I need to start planning because I’m moving out of this apartment next week too, and I’m trying to get a feel for whether or not I’m going to have to relocate home with my folks for longer term than just a couple weeks. It’s so demoralizing. Trying to keep my chin up but there’s only so much I can do.

    1. The Dread Pirate Buttercup*

      ARG I WISH I DIDN’T KNOW HOW YOU FELT.

      Hang in there!

      My mantra comes from the fable with two frogs drowning in a vat of milk. One realizes all is hopeless and drowns with dignity, and one just keeps kicking. Eventually, the thrashings of the “stupid” frog makes butter and uses it to hop out. Keep kicking, fellow froggy. It will take a while to get there, but every day you go through this is one day closer!

  51. The Other CC*

    Happy Friday everyone!

    I posted last week about agonizing over the decision on whether or not to take the offer of a legal assistant position at the law office where I am currently a part-time contract admin. Everyone who responded was very nice and said that it was a great opportunity, I should definitely go for it, and to use the flexible schedule to work on building my other skills if I decide to leave the legal field.

    I spoke with the lawyer I’d be working with on Monday to get all the details, turned it over in my head for a few days, and then formally accepted the offer on Wednesday! I start full-time sometime in November! I’m really excited and feel much better that I’ve got a clear path forward. Now I just have to figure out how to juggle my FIVE part-time jobs between now and the (which, uh…anyone got a calendar for that?)

    1. Logan*

      Glad to hear that you feel much better – always a win when you feel better about the decision after it has been made!

  52. Spegasi*

    I have a job interview at an art gallery tomorrow and I’m super nervous. It would be a dream job but I don’t really know how to handle the interview portion since its so different from the one I had at my current job (I work in goverment). I also don’t know what to wear which sounds a bit silly but its a real concern! Any advice? I also appreciate any good vibes you have to spare.

    1. The Dread Pirate Buttercup*

      Good vibes inbound! I don’t know how helpful this is, but I look up the pictures of profiles in the “about us” section of the company’s website and try to aim thataway— the advice I’ve always been given is “try to dress like the boss,” and people dress like their idealized version of themselves on portrait day.

      1. Admin of Sys*

        Ooh, that’s a good idea! I’ve mostly always been at office jobs and defaulted to classic business-interview clothes (not quite suit but close). But for an art gallery, that’s a much harder evaluation, and I could see a lot of jobs where there are less consistent styles.

    3. Anxious Cat*

      A question I am qualified to answer!!

      It really depends on the kind of gallery you’re interviewing with – is it a high end commercial gallery (e.g. Gagosian and Pace aka places that sell artwork of big name artists/art that you’d see at the MOMA or the Guggenheim) or is it more of a local gallery that feature local arts and crafts?

      For high end galleries, I’d definitely dress a little nicer or more formally. No need for a suit, but a nice form-fitting dress with a blazer, flats/heels, and maybe a nice necklace would do. You can wear this to lower end galleries as well, but I’d maybe swap out the blazer for a nice cardigan, or just take away the blazer all together. As long as you look polished, it should be fine.

      As for the interview portion, definitely emphasize the following skills:
      – customer service/client interaction/sales
      – knowledge of the art field (who are the major artists in your area? who are the stakeholders in your local art community? do you already have connections with people, like curators and collectors, in the art world? that last question is particularly important for high-end galleries)
      – event planning skills (galleries often host exhibit openings, lectures, cocktails, etc)
      – administrative abilities (data entry, emailing, talking on the phone, etc)
      – art installation skills (more of a bonus skill. It’s unlikely they’ll ask you, since many galleries will hire professional art preparators to handle this, but it doesn’t hurt to know the basics)

      The important thing is demonstrating your ability to communicate with people, either clients or staff. If you have a genuine love for art and for interacting with others, this shouldn’t be difficult at all! Be sure to go through the gallery’s website and look at all the artists they represent and be able to talk about those artists (or similar types of art) in the interview! You don’t want to be talking about your love for traditional Chinese ink paintings when the gallery is representing contemporary American artists.

      I hope that helps! I’m happy to answer any additional questions!

      1. Spegasi*

        Thank you so much! The gallery is sort of commercial and they represent mostly international artists, although no one super big. Its sort of young, only four years old and the owners are two young ish women who seemed very polished in a non traditional way.

        I thankfully do have some costumer service skills, been refreshing stuff about the current art scene and I think everything else is fine.

        I was thinking about wearing this really cool trousers that have a black and white checkered patter with a simple top OR a mint midi skirt with a simple top. Simple make up and maybe an interesting necklace. Which one do you think is a better idea?

        Thank you so much!

        1. Anxious Cat*

          I am more of a skirt girl, but either outfit sounds good to me as long as you look polished and put together. (Definitely add the necklace if you’re wearing a plain top!)

          Even if it’s a new gallery, be sure to read up on the artists and be able to articulate why you’re drawn to the artists and the mission of the gallery. Other than that, it seems like you’re good to go! Good luck!

  53. Chameleon*

    I’m an adjunct at a community college. For the last two years, I’ve had a quarter-to-quarter contract but a pretty stable position at .75 FTE at the lowest-paying school in the entire region. The stability has been great, but I’d like to eventually get a full-time position.

    If I stay where I am, I will *never* end up anything better than full-time adjunct, because they just don’t offer tenure-track at this school. If I leave this school I’m going to end up having to scramble for classes at multiple schools to just get to what I’m already making…I’d get paid about the same for .5 FTE at other schools, but the commute between the schools would probably eat up a lot of the extra time. However, I don’t know if I adjunct a class or two at another school, maybe I’d get offered more courses at one school and wouldn’t have to commute…

    I guess I just have no idea what my best path is at this point–keep with stable but low pay, or take a chance at maybe making more elsewhere but maybe not getting any classes whatever. Ugh. Adjuncting sucks so hard.

    1. Lady Jay*

      I hear you! I left a higher ed position recently because of low pay/few opportunities for advancement, and while I’m doing something that moves me forward in my field, it comes with a lot of uncertainty. Hard times!

      A couple (hopefully) helpful questions:
      1) Is there an adjunct or higher ed group on social media in your area? You could potentially pick their brains for ideas about whether moving to other schools is worth it.
      2) You say the school doesn’t offer TT but does it (or others like it) offer full-time, long-term non-tenure-track? I worked seven years at an institution where jobs were permanent (e.g. not temporary/visiting) but also not tenure track. It was fine.
      3) You seem to deciding between adjuncting at your current school and adjuncting at other schools; have you considered other options? Maybe administrative work or moving out of higher education altogether? I know it’s hard, but stability is worth a lot. Are there people in your field you could talk to about making the jump outside of higher ed?

    2. Persimmons*

      I had several professors in grad school who were semi-retired and were teaching virtually from another state. Is it feasible for you to seek out virtual classes when cobbling together multi-school options? That could solve the commuter scramble aspect, though of course the finances would still be a problem.

  54. Jayne*

    My neighbor in the cube next to me listens to podcasts or comedy or something on his headphones, and he constantly laughs out loud at everything funny (and he comments and responds to it out loud as well). It’s really frustrating and annoying. Management is very aware of this, and he’s moved cubes several times due to the complaints. I’m not one to complain, and I hate confrontation, but it’s getting to the point where I’m going to say something directly to him. It’s moments like these where I panic for speaking out, and I tend to either be too aggressive, or chicken out. What’s the best way to approach this? Should I talk to my manager (again), or say something to him, and if so, what should I say? I’m getting nervous thinking about it, but I think if no one says anything he’ll just keep doing it, and I’ll just keep getting more frustrated.

    1. Logan*

      He’s been moved several times for the same reason. He’s not going to change – I think the only way to address this is to say something to your manager so that he gets moved yet again.

      1. Thlayli*

        Yes. They are probably thinking “Jayne never complains about anything – let’s stick the annoying guy beside her”. Raise it with your manager.

    2. Pollygrammer*

      I’m the nonconfrontational type too, so I feel for you. I think, at least once you should make an attempt to talk to him. (Good practice asserting yourself, if nothing else). Feign ignorance of his previous issues and ask him if he realizes he’s doing this and to please stop. Don’t call it frustrating and annoying, though. Tell him it’s distracting, interfering with your work and affecting your productivity.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      There’s probably no reason to talk to him about it. I’m sure someone talked to him before they moved him, and moved him, and moved him. I’d just go to your manager and say “hey, that guy who keeps getting moved because he drives his neighbors crazy? is driving me crazy.”

    4. Kathenus*

      Maybe bring it up with him at a neutral time, when he’s not doing it. Maybe first thing in the morning – ‘good morning Fergus, I wanted to mention that your laughing and commenting on podcasts is distracting to my work. Please listen quietly so that I can concentrate, thanks.’ Then if it happens, a quick reminder to Fergus once. After that when you talk to your manager you can say that you’ve addressed it directly, twice, and ask her to please intervene.

    5. Admin of Sys*

      I support the folks suggesting speaking to Fergus and to management, but there’s also a slightly passive aggressive option, which is to interrupt him every time he does it and asking him what he’s laughing about and / or commenting on. For the short term, this will disrupt your work even more, but I doubt he wants to have to pause his podcasts to respond to you, so it may train him to be quiet about it.
      (a coworker trained me 90% of the way out of muttering to myself when I was coding by doing this – they just worked under the assumption that if I said something it must have been to them, and took to asking for details or clarification. Since that invariably distracted me, I learned to catch myself before vocalizing unless I was /really/ deeply focused on something.)

    6. Someone else*

      If you wanted to go the ultra-benefit of the doubt route you could try something like “you may not realize this, but you said that outloud” when he talks back to his podcast. Like assuming he thinks he’s thinking his reactions and not talking to his own headphones. It might make him more aware of it. But if he’s been moved multiple times for this, unless they moved him and didn’t tell him why (which makes no sense) he knows and he’s incapable or unwilling to change.

    7. Denise*

      Please talk to him. It’s not unreasonable for him to listen to something when he is working, but if he is bothering people, he has an obligation to listen to one of the many, many hours of audio content that are not funny so he can contain himself.

  55. Logan*

    Any suggestions on asking for accommodations during a job interview? I have a friend with vision problems who will be required to do a technical test (analyzing data) as part of the interview. We’ve recommended just telling HR that they will either need time to set up the computer to what they need (reset font sizes and reposition the monitor and keyboard) or can have the employer add magnification software.

    For those with HR experience (or any experience with accommodations): What is the balance between needing help, and not wanting to be viewed as a potential burden to an employer?

    In this case I’ve pointed out that data expertise is sufficiently hard to find that the employer should be helpful, however I would appreciate insight from those who are more familiar with hiring. Thanks!

    1. Tina*

      Not someone in a hiring position, just an employment lawyer, but I think making it really clear that your friend has everything they need to set up what they’d require to be accommodated and just need some time for set up is really reasonable and an employer that is decent would have no problem with that. If it involved an employer purchasing something or going out of their way to the point where there’s an actual “burden” it would be a little different. Like (“hey, i have some vision issues so I’ll just need an extra few minutes so i can increase the font sizes – would that work?”)

      1. Logan*

        Thanks! I’m glad to have someone sanity-check the plan. It’s often hard for someone with a disability to sort out what to do, as many employers will find excuses not to hire them because they are worried about even a perception of added burden, no matter how much they are reassured otherwise.

    2. Thlayli*

      Not a hiring person but I can tell you that one of the best engineers I ever worked with was almost blind. She had to zoom in to excel files until she had only about 6 cells on her specially large screen. If available accommodations for a disability are sufficient to enable you to do you the job properly then it shouldn’t affect a hiring managers opinion.

      If all he needs is a bit of time to change fonts etc before the test even starts then that’s a really easy thing to accommodate so he should just state clearly up front what he needs. In writing (eg email) preferably.

    3. Evil HR Person*

      The key here, as with any accommodation, is that it’s reasonable. Adjusting the monitor is plenty reasonable. Your friend should definitely ask for the accommodation because accommodating for disabilities is part of an employer’s responsibilities to applicants as well as employees. If your friend encounters ANY type of pushback (doubtful if they speak with HR directly) that’s an EEOC case right there. But, like I said, a good HR person will make it happen. I also want to point out that what you said (“data expertise is sufficiently hard to find”) is very relevant here. HR is in the business of getting the right person for the job, no matter if that person is able-bodied or needs an accommodation. We *want* to hire people, so we make these things happen for the right candidate! It’s all good.

    4. NorCalifHR*

      We habitually ask candidates if an accommodation would be needed to demonstrate a required skill level or job-related test. We’ve adjusted monitor screens, had IT temporarily install magnification software, provided wider/deeper than normal seating, and have an adjustable-height workstation set up for use as needed. Reasonable accommodations are not a black mark for a qualified candidate – roughly 1/3 of our office personnel have requested and received workstation accommodations of some sort!

  56. ZSD*

    Raise your hands: who else is kind of excited to change their LinkedIn background now that Wednesday’s letter told us it was an option?

      1. nep*

        Oh, I see–a letter on AAM? You mean a personalised background instead of that weird blue thing? Right–it always throws me when I see people who retain that generic background. Mine is one of my favourite photos.

  57. The Dread Pirate Buttercup*

    How much loyalty do I owe staffing agencies?

    I was sent on an assignment last week. They advertised an accounting clerk position, and didn’t have one when I interviewed. I told them I was flexible with regard to assignments, but I did not want my primary responsibility to be phones. I told them “no more than a ninety-minute commute, please.” I was placed in the phone room, and the position was three hours away each way, and I was too exhausted to concentrate or learn. (It kind of goes without saying that the advertised pay was much lower.)

    I feel like I should fire them before I start looking at other staffing services? And it is okay that I look at other positions, for future reference, when the assignment is temp-to-perm but maybe not the best fit?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      You can sign up with multiple staffing agencies and of course it’s okay to look for other positions. I would not suggest you ‘fire’ the agency. They may get a perfect job for you in the next two days and you shouldn’t burn a bridge unnecessarily.

    2. Free Meerkats*

      When my first wife was transitioning to disability – she first moved to part-time, then when that became too much, went onto SSDI – she started by going with 3 or 4 temp staffing agencies. AS time went on, she stopped accepting assignments with the agencies that didn’t listen to her needs. When she finally stopped working, she was working exclusively for one agency.

      Sign up for several and you’ll find the ones that work for and with you.

    3. Beth Anne*

      Ugh I hate staffing agencies because of this. I feel like they post fake jobs just to get a ton of people in their database. I had such bad experiences with staffing agencies I really don’t want to work with them anymore. They’d send me to jobs that weren’t what I wanted at all.

      1. The Dread Pirate Buttercup*

        I’m sorry ou went through that, but I’m weirdly relieved it’s not just me. Thanks!

    4. LilySparrow*

      I did temp work off & on for years to support a creative career. It’s normal to work with multiple agencies unless you signed a non-compete agreement when you registered with them.

      You can also refuse assignments that don’t meet your specifications (if you are in a position to do so).

      Especially over the pay. You have a right to expect that the pay will be what you agreed to. If I showed up at an assignment and didn’t get paid the rate I was promised, I’d be on the phone to the agency like a shot. I might turn around and leave, and certainly wouldn’t go back for a second day.

    5. Dr. Johnny Fever*

      I recently worked with multiple staging agencies on my job hunt and it was fine. Just don’t play them against each or apply directly to the jobs they recommend. Otherwise, enjoy having them so the legwork for you.

      If they repeatedly ignore your requirements, then fire them.

  58. Anon anony*

    My boss wants me to apply for a position that I don’t know if I can do… My coworker seems upset by this and I don’t know if I have the skills for it or want to do it. Boss told me to ask grandboss about it by this week and I did, so we’ll see. I just don’t like the pressure by my boss. Has anyone else experienced this?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Read the job description and find out what it entails.
      Point out to the boss the parts that are your weak points. Listen to his responses. If you feel like your concerns are being brushed off then pay attention to that feeling. Ask again if you wish or point out to him that this may not work as well as he thinks it will.

  59. Anon-A-Llama*

    Negotiation question- I’ve heard from multiple people this week that when negotiating a job offer, you can only negotiate for one thing. Is this true? Specifically people have told me that you can’t negotiate both start date and salary, because a hiring manager will consider you “difficult” and may pull the offer. I find this hard to believe that if you need to negotiate the start date, then you have to accept whatever salary is given, and vice versa. Any truth to this?

    1. Tableau Wizard*

      I think that you should always be able to negotiate BOTH start date and salary. However, it may be too much if you are trying to negotiate salary AND vacation for example – or if you’re really far off on your requests for any one of the three.

    2. LadyByTheLake*

      I don’t regard setting the starting date as “negotiation.” That to me is logistics unless there is something really out of the ordinary about the starting date — like it has to be months away. Negotiation is the terms of the ongoing employment — salary, benefits, vacation etc. and it is normal to negotiate any of those terms (although not all of them). I’ve never heard the advice that you can only negotiate one — that sounds silly. My advice would be “pick your battles” — and certainly negotiating everything is a bad idea.

    4. Hatty*

      You should try to negotiate both, but you might have to give one up to get the other. Hiring managers who consider people who negotiate “difficult” probably will whether you negotiate one or more things.

  60. Batty Twerp*

    I’m actually in a semi-good mood with work this week, at least now we’ve reached the end of it.
    It’s taken a surprisingly short amount of time for my manager to offer an internal applicant the position to replace Nice Guy co-worker, although, because it’s internal and there are handover policies and HR are known to drag their collective feet signing off the paperwork, we won’t actually get him until September (*sigh*). Better news, I know this applicant well – he’s been at the company longer than me, is more industry knowledgeable than me (although I’ll be training him on the technical aspects of the job that are unique to my department that he’s never covered in his current/soon-to-be-previous role), and is generally an easy guy to get on with. Not sure how he’ll cope being sat next to Mr Mumbles, but that’s not my problem! :-)
    All this means that my career path, temporarily derailed by the sudden departure of Nice Guy, is only stuck in a siding for a short amount of time – it’ll all be back on track by Xmas (sorry for using *that* word in August!)
    And… it’s my birthday this weekend. Not normally a big thing, but for the first time in my employment at this company, I’m actually able to take time off (Monday) during the first 5 working days of the month! I’m still not quite sure how I got that one past my manager, but hey, I’m not complaining! (again, for possibly the first time in my employment here…)
    Things are finally looking up.

  61. hermit crab*

    Who else around here just started a new job? How are you feeling about it?

    I started on Monday, after nearly 10 years at my previous organization (my first permanent job out of undergrad). It’s awesome so far and the people here are fabulous, but also CHANGE IS HARD, YOU GUYS :)

    In my case, I’m switching from a consulting environment where everything was about billable hours and producing deliverables to a nonprofit where a large part of my job is things like “keeping up-to-date on recent research” and “maintaining relationships with partners” and other things that don’t necessarily result in tangible products. I think this is going to be an interesting adjustment! Anyone have similar stories to share?

    1. The Ginger Ginger*

      I transitioned from a department with very strict timelines and concrete deliverables to the product management team in March, and THIS IS MY MAIN STRUGGLE TOO. OMG. Competitor Analysis, and learning about the products I own, and brainstorming product direction, etc. It all feels so nebulous and, half the time, like I’m just making things up. Only the responsibility and stakes are way higher, which makes everything feel so much more stressful. So, I feel you SO HARD right now. Some days I go home and I’m just not sure what I accomplished because I feel like there’s nothing tangible to show for it.

      Change. It IS so hard. I’m hoping the adjustment phase ends soon, because yowza.

      1. hermit crab*

        Some days I go home and I’m just not sure what I accomplished because I feel like there’s nothing tangible to show for it.

        Yes, that’s exactly it!!

      2. The Ginger Ginger*

        And actually, I’m trying to be reeeeeaally good about identifying and tracking accomplishments and keeping a record of my products/projects, because….what do I put on my employee eval when the time comes?! How do I measure this?! Or talk about it on a resume? If you haven’t put any thought into that yet, I encourage you to do so- even ask your manager/mentor about the eval part, because, at least for me, it feels like there’s not much to say about my role right now. Even after 4 and a half months.

        I don’t know if I feel so adrift because I’m learning this role on the job (no previous training) or what, but yeah, it’s a humdinger of a thing. My jerkbrain is having a field day with it, trying to convince me I’ve made some DIRE mistake in changing my department. Which is absurd, because I am literally not even 5 months in; there’s just no way to know that yet. What helped me a couple weeks ago was to take advantage of my 1-on-1 to ask my manager specifically for feedback. I couched it in terms of “now that the first 90 days are up, do you have any feedback or constructive criticism about how you see me adjusting to the role? If there are blindspots or weak areas I may not be addressing quickly enough, I’d like the opportunity to get on top of them now”. He seemed to think I was doing well, so I felt a lot better.

        1. PX*

          Interesting because my team is basically about product management and none of us really struggle with this. So for instance for me, goals this year were about getting customer feedback (something we struggle with, not sure if its applicable for you); ensuring new product updates were delivered on time/to scope (something we struggle with!); and a lot of goals in previous years were about internal process improvements as well. Not sure if what you deal with is public facing but in general goals can also be around metrics (ie did customers use more/less of your products and if so why) and as I said earlier, feedback on the actual product/level of service.

          1. Product person*

            +1

            Also in product management and was thinking the same thing. Product managers have lots of tangible things to document regarding their performance!

            Accomplishments in my case might include, “achieved consensus across all stakeholders for the roadmap despite initial conflicts between internal groups”, “visited 5 clients for customer discovery activities”, “achieved 95% user satisfaction, up from 70%, with the new release”, “established requirements walkthrough with developers which cut in half the number of questions received during sprint planning”.

            Start from the desired outcomes and goals for your product, and you should be able to identify many tangible accomplishments to track!

          2. The Ginger Ginger*

            I think some of my confusion on this right now is just that I’m brand new to product and coming from a much more regimented and concrete department, so achievements just look different. And I’m on internal product lines, not client facing. Once I figure out what’s what, I (hopefully) will struggle less with this.

    2. LDN Layabout*

      I just started on Wednesday and that was an ‘induction’ day, so really started on Thursday.

      It’s a big change, I’ve gone from private to public sector and…yeah, there are already differences (I miss the much nicer tech and the ability to get program licences…).

      On the other hand, people care. Like, genuinely care. They want things to be better for people and for things to improve (vague, I know) and there’s SO MUCH scope for improvement on data and analysis and they don’t have many people with the skills I have and want to develop (my line manager is clearly a data science geek and it’s so exciting).

  62. Dzhymm*

    To what extent is it an employer’s place to counsel a young job-seeker in the ways of professionalism?

    Yesterday a young man came to my shop seeking employment. I wasn’t there but my staff spoke to him and was reasonably impressed with his specific skillset. He wrote down a note with his contact information and a little bit about his skills, and quite frankly the handwriting looks like it was done by a six-year-old. This is a guy who’s going to be entering his senior year of high school. Should I tell him “You’re going to have to figure out how to clean this up if you’re going to be taken seriously?” (not to mention the fact that we often hand-write notes on work orders… these would need to be legible too!)

    Today I was texting him to set up an interview, and at one point he said “Oh, I have to bring my brother to a friend’s house at 3 but otherwise I’m available”. Again, should I tell him that this would better be phrased as “I have a conflict at 3…” rather than going into details?

    1. Murphy*

      That second part seems really minor. Especially for someone in high school! Cut him a little slack.

      The handwriting…I don’t know. It’s hard to say without seeing it if it was sloppy, or if that’s just his handwriting. I know some intelligent capable people who just have really crappy handwriting.

      1. Reba*

        My relative has THE most awful handwriting, and it’s actually a diagnosed, learning-differences-related thing! He is smart, he just really needs to type everything. :)

        Luckily we do not live in countries where handwriting analysis is a thing (???).

      2. Decima Dewey*

        This is me. I have horrendous handwriting. If I have to take a message, I’ll write it down, then email the person it’s meant for while I can still read what I’ve written.

    2. Tableau Wizard*

      I would say that you may address these things AFTER he’s been hired, but it’s not really necessary during the interview process.

      For the handwriting, it would make sense once it’s relevant for his job.

      For the over specific details, that’s a common mistake across generations – some people just give you more information than they need to. Especially if you’re texting, which is an informal communication channel generally, I wouldn’t think twice about it.

    3. Trisha*

      If you’re going to interview him, I would bring it up then in the context of “part of your role here would be to add hand written notes on work orders. The one sample of your writing that I’ve seen concerns me. Can you tell me if this [note] is typical of your writing?” If he says something along the lines of “oh I was in a hurry.” that would be a better opening to give him tips like – when you’re giving/sending/writing/etc. anything for a prospective employer, you want to put your best foot forward, even if it appears to be something minor – you always want to appear professional and ensure that what you’re presenting is the image you want.

    4. AcademiaNut*

      The conflict thing – I think that’s just being a teenager. When you’re that age, you usually have to justify things like that in details to the authority figures in your life, and the idea that you can just say “I have a conflict” to an adult and have it accepted is pretty novel.

      The handwriting – does it matter? As in, in the job you’re hiring for, will terrible handwriting actually be a problem, or is it just that you think it looks bad? I don’t think I’ve had to hand write anything for work, other than nearly illegible notes to myself, in at least 15 years.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Seventeen year old me would not have done well with all these corrections if I did not even work for you.
      I’d wait until he was working for you. He’s a newbie employee, some of this is normal stuff.
      The hand writing thing may not be fixable. My husband had awful handwriting and as he aged it got worse, which I could not imagine until I saw the progression. I honestly think he had some type of problem in his hands/wrists that just made writing too hard. If you hire this person you may have to settle for legible over neat. People have to write so others can read. My boss can make War and Peace fit on a post-it note. I told her that if I can’t read it, I get really concerned because I know I am missing instructions I need to follow. She did understand and all is well. However, the example holds, people have to be able to read what someone wrote and there is nothing wrong with pointing that out.

  63. ThatLibTech*

    I have my first ever office! Imposter syndrome is rising to all new highs!

    How do I go about making it mine? Apparently I am free to re-organize furniture at will, add whatever plants (real or fake) that I want. Literally as long as I don’t attempt to paint the walls or throw out particular important documents without running it by my direct manager at work … I am free to do whatever?

    How did y’all handle this the first time? Any suggestions? Tips? Sadly it doesn’t have much/if at all natural light so I’ll have to avoid things that require it.

    1. Batty Twerp*

      Apparently adding mirrors, or mirrored surfaces can help bounce around whatever natural light does make it into your space. You might also want to live with the current arrangement for a short time while you work out the natural flow (sorry, sounds a bit….), just like moving into a new apartment.

      I can’t say I have any other tips or suggestions; I’ve been stuck in open plan spaces my entire 20+ year career!

    2. M. Albertine*

      A lot depends on your office culture, so my recommendations are for a semi-professional office. I recommend starting with a philodendron and bamboo. They are almost impossible to kill. I personally do not like fake because you eventually have to dust them, and I would much prefer to try to keep something alive than dust a bunch of leaves, but YMMV. Filling the walls is really important to make an office look “complete”. Big box craft stores often have innocuous posters, if you keep an eye on selection, you can often find something that fits your personality yet is appropriate for an office setting (I buy my poster frames from Wal-Mart). College diplomas and framed family photos. If you’re looking for a homey touch, a non-florescent lamp goes a long way.

    3. Natalie*

      For what it’s worth, if you have fluorescent lights plants usually like those just fine. You just want to avoid anything that needs more than 10 hours a day of sunlight since you won’t (hopefully) be at your office 24/7. I would also avoid anything that really enjoys misty or damp air, since in my experience forced air makes the environment too dry for them.

    4. Tara S.*

      Put a picture up on the wall! Put a tchotchke on your desk or bookshelf. Bring in something non-functional that makes it yours – don’t need much, a postcard or two will work to start. Have fun!

      1. OyVey*

        I also thought about art.

        For a starting place, you might enquire with galleries/museums in your area if they have loaner programs. The one I’m familiar with, they’ll ask you about preferences (photographs/canvas/other media; colors/line drawings; style) and bring pieces and hang them for you. A year later, you get new stuff. There’s a small fee associated and the business does need to carry enough liability insurance so definitely counts as something you run by your direct manager before signing anything but it can be a pretty simple way to add a bit of color to your space without having to go out and actively look for it yourself.

    5. Admin of Sys*

      +1 on the folks saying check out other people’s desks – if everyone else has decorative executive fidget toys and you pile your office with stuffed animals, it might look a little bit odd.

      If you like natural light, consider getting a desk lamp and putting in a grow-light bulb. Even if you’re not trying to keep plants alive, it can really help with ambient comfort. If you do want to keep plants, I find pothos is pretty impossible to kill. Mine doesn’t have any real light (warehouse), and it hasn’t really grown in the last year, but it hasn’t died either. It will try to take over your cube if you do give it light to crawl towards though. Also – depending on how likely you are to remember to water, getting one of the plant nanny bulbs will cover for a lot of neglect.

      Grabbing a few fun / inspirational / pretty magnets and something decorative to hold your pens is always both useful and a quick way to personalize. I also have some industry applicable comics I’ve printed out over the years that go up immediately.

      Also – If you can get a bookshelf, do so. Bookshelves are always useful. Sometimes even for books.

      Have fun!

    6. Aphrodite*

      It’s not my first time having one but I have my own office now–and it’s huge. I think it’s the largest office on this satellite campus. How I got it I’m not sure, but I suspect my boss did that.

      I don’t have or like clutter so there are very few things I can bring in from home (and of course nothing valuable or deeply sentimental). I moved in here on November 1 and so far I have two photographs–a long narrow one and a huge (4.5 ft by 3.5 ft) one. I also have two lamps and a couple of books on the built-in bookshelf. I tend more toward minimalism than maximalism but I do want more. I want to be able to look at things that give me pleasure. But I do not want to go out and just buy things. They have to be things that mean something to me rather than clutter to fill the spaces. So it may well take me two or three years to get there. That’s okay; I can wait. It took me at least five years to finish decorating my home.

    7. Chaordic One*

      I picked out some nice cheap prints at allposters dot com from their sale items. Nothing too out there, but things that made me feel comfortable. I picked a print of “Woods and Undergrowth” by Van Gogh and some travel posters of U.S. National Parks. If I leave the job, I’ll probably just leave the posters there.

  64. Persimmons*

    It is so, so obvious that I’m a techie who spends most of my day dealing with others techies. This week in a meeting, a mid-level manager requested that we make a change, and I said it would be feasible if we were given leeway to retcon a few adjacent items as well. He asked why I was making up words, while the rest of the room (also techies) smirked. Oops!

      1. Persimmons*

        Second oops! That would help, right?

        Retroactive continuity — a sci-fi/comics/geekdom term that means changing previously established facts in order to support plot points in a later publication. Basically, taking plot inconsistencies and writing a way to make them work. Tech folks in my company heavily support the stereotype of being into fandom.

    2. General Ginger*

      LOL. I had to read your paragraph three times to figure out what these potential made up words could have been.

    3. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      I think someone used the word “retcon” in one of our meetings this week, too!

  65. Searching, searching*

    On tailoring resumes for positions: Do you do this even if you’re looking at admin jobs? Because they all ask for the same general things (calendars/travel/ability to use Word/thick skin/handling difficult people/multi tasker etc), and my resume already has the projects where I improved processes highlighted. I feel like reorganizing it to put more general stuff like makes travel plans or handled multiple calendars and scheduling for x people or whatever they list first only takes focus away from specific accomplishments that show the depth of my skills.

    I do tailor my cover letters to address the skills they seem to be highlighting in their job descriptions.

    1. Chaordic One*

      It depends on the the quality of the job and how badly I want it. If it sounds like a great job (with things like an advertised salary range that would be a definite step up), then yeah, I tailor my resume and cover letter to it. If sounds only “meh,” the I send them a more generic resume and a less detailed cover letter.

  66. That Glass Ceiling*

    Looking for tips for breaking into the Old Boys Club. I’m a younger female who has just made it to the C Suite. I have a few allies, but I’m the youngest at the table by at least 10 years. And the only female. They golf, they hang out…how do I get in on that? Is there a way?

    1. Reba*

      Take up golf? Get into Scotch or even more rarefied booze like amaros or something, if you drink? Ugh. Congratulations, though!

    2. Indefinite Contract Attorney*

      Golf is actually a really interesting sport if only for this reason: you learn A LOT about the type of person you’re playing with when you go even just 9 rounds. And you learn a lot about yourself and dealing with adversity, frustration, consistency, and feeling as though you are not meeting expectations.
      All from a sport that involves wailing on a little ball with a tiny metal stick. -shrug-

    3. writelhd*

      Sympathies. Asking to go golf or hang out with them when they do it is probably the first step.

    4. Tara S.*

      I had a female boss who literally was learning to golf because she has C-Suite ambitions. I thought it was a little ridiculous but looking at these responses I guess she was right.

    6. Thlayli*

      Learning to golf is a time-honoured way of getting in with golfers.

      I am so glad I have no interest in being upper management because I can’t stand golf!

    7. PDXJael*

      Rather than asking to be included, how about asking them to join *you*? Take a couple golf lessons then sign up for a local charity tournament and say you want your company to sponsor it and form a team.

    8. Chaordic One*

      The most successful women leaders I’ve worked under all played golf. The only exceptions were women who worked for the government.

    9. PX*

      Ugh. This is so hard. Unfortunately, like the others, I would say picking up some golf knowledge will probably be a good thing, if not taking up the sport completely.

      Otherwise like Reba said, the flipside is start inviting them to something that you do. Obviously there will be bonus points if its something ‘stereotypically old white man’, but flipping it in a completely different direction might also work (eg I used to climb lots, its a booming sport, perhaps proposing that as something new/different/fun to try might work). Basically frame it as ‘oh lets do something different instead of always golf! might be a way in? The challenge ofcourse is that if this is an established social thing that they do, trying something else might not go down well.

      Tough situation, but either way – kudos to you for making it all the way up there!

  67. CityMouseMaybe*

    How much room for negotiation is there in a city level government job? I assume the stated pay range is pretty set in stone, but what about benefits/vacation time/etc.? Or does it vary from place to place?

    1. Tableau Wizard*

      I’ve never interacted with City level, but every government entity I’ve ever dealt with has been unable to negotiate much of anything. It’s basically – you get what you get.

    2. Nita*

      Actually, in NYC there may be more room to negotiate salary than benefits. There is typically a wide range (and it’s probably in the job posting). Leave and benefits are often governed by union agreements, and pretty much set in stone.

    3. Government worker*

      In my government job (which is state, not city) you’d be unable to negotiate benefits at all – those are set in stone. You’d actually have more luck negotiating the salary. You’re not going to get out of your “band,” but you might get higher up in it.

      1. Natalie*

        You can also sometimes negotiate for having some prior experience counted towards your seniority, depending on precisely how related it is.

    4. not really a lurker anymore*

      There’s usually some wiggle room on salary, oddly enough. Benefits, I don’t think there’s room. Vacation time, maybe. It’s going to depend on your location.

    5. ONFM*

      It depends on where you’re coming in at. If you’re coming in as a dept director, negotiate everything. Mine negotiated additional vacation time, a new city vehicle every 2 years, etc. Any other level, salary will probably be your only area that’s up for discussion. I was a front runner for a position with a locality (not entry level, a specialized administrative position) and negotiated my salary. I ended up not taking the position for completely unrelated reasons (something happened in my personal life that changed my situation entirely), but the department I was interviewing with was going to have to go before city council to request the…deviation? (can’t think of the word right now) because I was asking about 10k above the midpoint for the position.

  68. Wants more wrangling*

    I’m a senior llama groomer. When oldBoss left 3 years ago, I went for the job. Didn’t get it because job was llama wrangler and grooming manager – and while could do the grooming, and that definitely includes a measure of wrangling, didn’t have enough experience or training.

    So when they hired newBoss, bigBoss gave me training and the opportunity to get experience as it was something I wanted to get into.

    Now newBoss is leaving. Because of changes to structure, we’re not going to replace his position exactly; duties are being spread out in meantime, and in a month or so will determine what kind of position we need (probably a herding manager). The manager of a neighbouring team is taking over line manager duties for my team.

    I’m disappointed won’t get to go for position – because it no longer exists – and also very disappointed when neighbouring team and us got together, and all of the wrangling duties which I really want to take on were put to “to be assigned when necessary”. I got impression neighbouring team don’t realise I am very capable of these.

    Many of these duties do really need a single point of contact.

    Will be having meeting with my new line manager next week, and going to bring this up… what is best way to say “I want these responsibilities, and if you could change my title as well that would be nice…” Not necessarily wanting more money (obviously wouldn’t say no) but for career, I think I need to move up a stage now.

    Thoughts?

    1. Clorinda*

      Just say it. You have the relevant training and skills but nobody knows except the boss who’s leaving. Tell everyone who’s in charge of this process that you can do these things.

      1. Wants more wrangling*

        Actually most people know :) certainly BigBoss and new line manager were involved at the time. But yeah, just say it is good…. trying to find right words and get up nerve is hard!

        1. Clorinda*

          “Just as a reminder as we re-organize here, I went through XYZ llama wrangling training last year, and I’d love to put these skills to use.” And your very own words: “I think I need to move up a stage now.” You’ve got this.

        2. Artemesia*

          You need to say ‘as you know I can do this, but I want you to know that I would also really like to do this’ — in your own way of course.

    2. Jessi*

      When you meet with New line manager why not just straight up mention it? “I wanted to talk to you about the wrangling duties. Old boss was trying to transition some of these duties to me so I’ve been trained to do X, Y and Z. I would love to take on X, Y and Z as part of my permanent duties (of course it would be wonderful if I could then be called Senior wrangler and groomer) as this would be the next natural step for me. I’ve heard it suggested that these tasks might just be assigned at random as needed but i think they would benefit from having one person permanently do them because of reasons A, b and C”

      I think even if you get no raise out of it at your next evaluation you can say “Last year I took on X, Y & Z and have done amazingly”

      1. Wants more wrangling*

        Tjat structure helps, thanks!

        Yeah, raise isn’t the issue.. I want to move forward is main thing.

  69. deets*

    I’ve made it to the reference checking stage for a grant-funded research position at a public university. I’m currently working in a similar job, but at a small company (<10 people) doing contract research that's more like consulting.

    Questions I am pondering as I wait for their decision:
    1) If they make an offer, is salary negotiation a thing for grant-funded positions at universities? My guess is no, but I also don't want to needlessly short myself, especially since I'm sure I'll be taking a pay cut. (But picking up benefits like health insurance!!)
    2) How hard will it be to transition to a much bigger organization? I think spending 4 years at a small company that is eternally in chaos/start-up mode has broken my normal meter on a lot of things and I know I'd be walking into more bureaucracy and policies (not necessarily a bad thing), but for folks who have done the tiny-to-huge move, or private-to-public move, was there culture shock?

    1. Murphy*

      It would depend on the grant and the university…but in general you’re right that there’s not going to be much wiggle room there, if any.

    2. Tara S.*

      I wouldn’t expect too much wiggle room on grant-funded salary. They likely budgeted for the position when they wrote the grant, so if you ask for more money than they budgeted, they probably have to take it from somewhere else in the budget. It doesn’t hurt to ask, but I wouldn’t hold out too much. Benefits are also probably off the table (as far asking things like asking for more vacation) because those tend to be set by the University, not the department or researcher.

      I never worked in a small company like that, but I think the biggest change when moving to a big University is just that there will probably be more people you have to talk to to get things done. Things get spread out, but if you’re lucky your department will have a great admin who can help guide you through everything (signed, former uni admin ;).

      1. deets*

        All good to know. My understanding is that benefits are indeed the standard university package for full-time/non-professor staff – though that package is really good (especially compared to my current lack of benefits) so I’m not worried about that.

        I’m amazed at how quickly the interview process has gone so far, and suspect there’s at least one amazing admin person involved who is moving everything forward. Will endeavor to make friends with that person if I get the job. :-)

        1. SciDiver*

          As far as benefits go, double check that your job category is eligible for the benefits the university offers! When I accepted my grant-funded research job at a public university, I was told the position came with benefits in the form of health insurance, but found out after the fact that only permanent employees can get coverage through the university (not 1-2 year contract positions like mine). I also theoretically get paid sick time, but that doesn’t kick in until my 1 year anniversary with the university–both things I wish I had known beforehand.

          That said, I do think it’s worth asking about pay in the simple way that Alison has described before: “I was wondering if there’s any flexibility in the salary on your end?” Odds are they will say no, but it likely won’t hurt.

  70. Jack Be Nimble*

    I’m on a seven-day assignment at a non-profit and the executive director offered me a job out of the blue on day 4. I told him that I’d have to chase down a few leads and I’m so glad I didn’t agree to anything because now (day 6) I’m realizing how little I want the job! ED is really demanding and high-handed and there’s a lot of miscommunication and a pretty high turnover and I think he’d make me pretty miserable in pretty short order.

    I’ve got an interview for a different role next week (one that would have a shorter commute, more growth potential, and pay at least 15k more) , wish me luck!

  71. Union job questions?*

    I’m being recruited for what turns out to be a union job. I have zero union experience (& don’t yet know which union), what questions should I be asking about the union & contract?
    Thanks for your help.

    1. What? Like it's hard?*

      As in you’re working for the union itself or you’re working for a company and you will be a part of the bargaining unit?

    2. Tara S.*

      Not all unions are the same (entertainment vs teaching vs mining, etc all have their own ways of doing things). Get the name of the union and read through their stuff online. It should give you a much better idea of what role the union plays and how it will affect the job.

    3. Thlayli*

      I think it’s illegal to force someone to join a union. So you don’t have to join if you don’t want to. But that may depend on where you live.

      1. Bea*

        Absolutely depends on your location. There are states that are “right to work” states, that means you can’t be forced to join. But others who aren’t “right to work”, you can be told “join or you’re not working here”. There are some professions that are strictly union and so you’re SOL if you don’t want to join.

    4. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

      Research what is in the union’s working contract regarding layoffs. Months after I was hired, the economy crashed and since our contract has a last-in, first-out clause, I was handed a layoff notice. This repeated several years in a row and while the layoffs were averted each time (albeit just barely one or two years), it was extremely stressful. Some of my librarian colleagues in other systems were not quite so lucky.

    5. msroboto*

      You should be able to ask for a copy of the contract. Just be nice..Would it be possible to get a copy of the union contract? They should be able to send a file or point you to a URL.
      There will probably be subtle things in it that you won’t be able to figure out but the basics or how much vacation or bereavement leave and stuff like that should be clear enough.

    6. SpellingBee*

      First find out what union it is, and get a copy of the contract – you can sometimes find them online, although not always. If not, ask for one. Read it carefully and ask for clarification on anything you don’t understand. The contract will lay out vacation accruals, holidays, premium pays, health insurance provided and who pays what for that, the disciplinary process, pay rates, seniority, and a host of other things depending on the industry. Ask how much the dues are (that most likely won’t be in the contract, just that you’re obligated to pay them if you’re a member).

      You can’t be forced to join a union, but you may be required to pay an “agency fee” to the union depending on where you live (whether or not it’s a right-to-work state) and the terms of the contract, since even if you aren’t a member you’re still benefitting by the terms that the union has negotiated. That may be less than full union dues, but you wouldn’t have access to some of the members-only benefits such as union representation in disciplinary matters.

      1. Union job questions?*

        Thanks much. Pretty sure she’ll point me toward the contract if asked. I’m happy to join the union if we agree on the role & terms, just want to be sure I’m asking the necessary questions as part of that assessment.

  72. Older Millennials Update*

    I posted a few open threads ago about how I feel like older millennials get the short shrift when looking for a job–that when I apply or interview for something and look to see who got it, inevitably it was a 24 year old. (And trust me, my salary requirement are NOT the problem, lol.)

    I removed some jobs and my graduation year from my resume, so it looks like I’m 27 rather than 32. And I swear, I’ve been getting way more callbacks since I’ve made that change! It might be worth trying if your first job or two aren’t directly related to what you’re doing now (or trying to transition to).

    1. Older Millennials Update*

      ETA: it pains me to do it! I’m proud of the maturity that has come with my age and the work experience that I’ve had. I truly think that every job I’ve had has made me a stronger, more valuable employee, even if the field I’m in how is different. But you gotta do what you gotta do.

      1. Library Land*

        Not to take away from the very real issues with ageism (because we all know it’s true), I might lean more towards what Secretary says below. Having every job on your resume may have been the issue – especially if they’re not directly related to what you’re applying for and you did more than list them.

        And honestly, I can’t say that I’d even care if someone was 32 and not 27 – that wouldn’t factor into my hiring decision at all, it’s just 5 years apart. Then again, my field is notorious for people going back to school mid-career, and I don’t know your field and you could be 100% right.

    2. Reba*

      Interesting!

      I worked for a while (sortof relevant, sortof odd jobs) before going to school. Now I’m out and I feel both reasonably experienced AND like I’m just starting out at 32. It’s a weird combo.

    3. Secretary*

      It might also be that the resume is shorter. I know Alison has talked about how resumes should not list every job you’ve ever had, but it’s a marketing document for that particular job.

    4. Kat in VA*

      Oh, honey (not said sarcastically). It only gets worse as you get older…I’m 47. /sigh/

  73. Junior Dev*

    I am really shaken up after getting reprimanded yesterday. On Wednesday I kind of lost my cool in a meeting where my boss was advocating for putting a system in place that would make a lot more work for me, be less effective, and annoy the people in other departments we would be imposing it on. I raised my voice and was visibly frustrated. Let’s say I yelled, “you want to wash all the teapots with q-tips instead of putting them in the dishwasher? Oh my God!” I recognize it was not a great response and I’m sure it was upsetting to others.

    On the other hand…I was panicking at the thought that my job would go from teapot design with the occasional teapot washing, to a full-time experience of hand-scrubbing the teapots one square centimeter at a time. I’d been trying to explain this to people for a couple days and no one seemed to get it. My boss was acting like my objection was about laziness or something, and was weirdly attached to her q-tip washing plan.

    Today she talked to me about it, I apologized, I feel like it’s mostly resolved. But I’m really tense still (I got fired from my last job after similar things happened) and also resentful because I feel like no one was listening until I got upset, and my job was about to become unbearably tedious. (Because I can only stretch the teapot metaphor so far: boss’s proposal would have involved tracking info by hand on a spreadsheet that could just as easily be looked up instantly from online metrics, and would have involved haranguing others in the organization to do a bunch of extra work to support this scheme.)

    How do you get heard when no one seems to understand or care without yelling? I think this particular situation is ok but I want to know for the future.

    1. MuseumChick*

      My comment may come off a bit blunt, I apologize in advance.

      I understand where you are coming from because I am currently in a position where no one else at my job really understand what I do or why I want things done a certain way.

      A couple of things:

      1) Being heard and getting what you want are two different things. One does not imply the other.
      2) There are professional ways to handle frustration and worries at work. I don’t know if you’ve tried any of these so I’ll put them here just in case: In the meeting, in a neutral tone saying something like “How will this effect processes X and Y? I’ve worried it will increase the length of time it takes to do X which would effect Y significantly.” Or, after the meeting going to your boss “I was giving some thought to what was discussed int he meeting yesterday. I would like to discuss how these changes will effect my position here.”
      3) Your company has the prerogative of changing the nature of your position. You have prerogative to sticking it our for while while you job hunt.
      4) Baring an EXTREME situation (this is not one of them) it is not ok to yell in a meeting. Or at work in general.

      All this is part of what sucks about being an adult. If you can’t control your frustration/temper/attitude in a meeting I am going to have some serious concerns about you as an employee.

      1. MuseumChick*

        Additionally, sometimes managers/higher ups need to see how inefficient something is in practice before the understand. It’s the nature of the beast sometimes.

      2. Jessi*

        I think sometimes it pays to go away and calm down some.

        So get upset, go home, complain to your roommate, dog, cat, best friend. sister ect and then come back the next day or on monday and say to your boss
        “Hey, I’ve been thinking about scrubbing the teapots by hand and I’m concerned about X, Y and Z (its going to take 4 times as long, have you thought about the fact that we don’t own dishwashing liquid. I was wondering if you could tell me a bit about how this was decided?” give the other person a chance to say their piece and then. “I hear that this is what you wanted – have you considered that tracking the metrics by hand would take 4 times as long as it does currently as we are able to track those via x software”. So that would be my advice going forwards.

        As for fixing your current situation I think its ok to say to your boss something like “hey I just wanted to quickly appoloigse for my reaction last week. I didn’t mean to get upset. I’ve been thinking about why I reacted that way, hopefully by working it out I can work out better ways to react in the future. I think I panicked as I carefully chose this job due to its high amount of teapot design work, which is really important to me. I understand that this role requires some teapot washing and while I’m happy to do my fair share that isn’t what I was looking for in a position. Now that I understand what happened I can work towards being calmer about changes to the role. ” Thats what I would do. Lets your boss know that teapot design is really important to you, and lets her know that you are working towards not outbursting/ yelling again

    2. Murphy*

      It depends on what you mean by “heard” because sometimes they will hear you and understand, but still decide to go a different way, and there’s not much you can do in that case.

      You might have been doing this, but I would just be really clear in your language. “I have some serious concerns about this plan.”and then be explicit about what those objections are. “I think it would be less efficient because of XYZ, and I’m worried about the effect it might have on other departments because of ABC.”

    3. MechanicalPencil*

      In my experience, yelling isn’t a way to be heard. You have to speak the person’s language. My manager is very visual, which is beneficial as a Teapot Designer. If I’m describing verbally what I’m thinking about doing and I see the blank look, I’ll do a quick sketch or wireframe and send it over. If it’s an issue of how the data aggregation is more difficult or the Chocolate and Vanilla Swirled Teapots won’t work because of a lack of structural integrity, that will take a metaphor to bring it to a workable level. In essence, find some common ground and speak a common language. I’ve found that yelling just makes people defensive and less likely to want to truly listen.

      1. Junior Dev*

        Do you have any suggestions for getting people to wait on making any big decisions until you can draw up the teapot diagrams? Like if you’re in a meeting and people are saying “I think we should do xyz” and you know it’s a bad idea but you can’t articulate why verbally with what you currently have in front of you?

    4. The Winter Rose*

      You can: use more “intense” language (e.g. I am extremely concerned that doing x will…”), speak more slowly and in a deeper register than your usual speaking voice, keep repeating your point until the person addresses your concern, explicitly point out (calmly and cooly) that your concern has not been addressed yet.

      You can’t shout. You first say you raised your voice, but then compare it to yelling. Raising your voice slightly is one thing, it can add emphasis and intensity, but if you actually yelled then that is a problem. My concern if an employee yells in a meeting is going to be their lack of professionalism, self-control and awareness.

      Does the plan your boss proposed have advantages from a business perspective? All you mention is the impact on your job role, which is understandable since that affects you directly, but there is likely a reason why this suggestion was made that isn’t “make your life miserable”. And your boss can make that decision even if it does change your role in a way you don’t like. You not liking something really isn’t the main deciding factor, IF there is a business reason for the change.

      The other thing is, you say your concerns were not being heard. If you’ve been trying to explain something for a couple of days to multiple people and they’re not getting it, chances are it’s not them. That’s an opportunity to step back and reconsider how you are expressing yourself and see if you can change something to make it more effective before you get to the frustrated yelling stage. But also, not being heard is not the same as not being agreed with. Is it possible they heard your concerns but just disagreed with you? Or thought that the proposal was worth continuing with despite your concerns? It’s worth considering whether people are not understanding you or not agreeing with you, as that will change how you adjust your communication style.

      1. Junior Dev*

        I really think it was a case of not understanding. And the consequence to the company would be that I would spend all my time wrangling spreadsheets instead of doing the work they hired me for, therefore less would be getting done and my department as a whole would be less productive.

        I think I wasn’t articulating myself well at all, looking back. I am going to do some thinking on why that was and why I didn’t feel empowered to wait until I had a chance to articulate myself. I think a good phrase would have been “I have a meeting scheduled with (boss) to discuss this, let’s wait until then to make any decisions.” It felt like decisions were being made around me and I was scared because I knew they were bad for the team as a whole, but they would impact me most directly, and I couldn’t seem to get across why to anybody.

        1. Junior Dev*

          Realizing too that a lot of this is not trusting decisions will be made in a consistent or transparent manner because that’s been my experience in this and past jobs. I truly have tried in various situations to say things like “I really don’t want to make decisions on this until I’ve had a chance to get some thoughts together” and sometimes it works but sometimes people just forge on ahead. And that’s terrifying to me because it’s led to my job transforming into something I hate and I have this fear of it happening again.

          I am really looking for strategies to articulate my concerns well, get other people on board with at least understanding them well enough to be informed when they agree or disagree, and buy the time needed to get materials together when I’m not able to explain something verbally.

        2. Artemesia*

          No one wants to hear about why it makes your job harder and that is what they are hearing. The case is that it makes the department less productive: this other department will now have to do X before the task can be completed, on top of whatever they are doing; the ABC tasks that I am currently focussing on are not going to get done (take 3 times as long?) and probably using the electronic system in place will be more accurate than lots of hand entered spread sheets. I am concerned that it not only makes me less productive but will make the department less productive/look bad to the rest of the organization and it will make us depend on another department whose agenda and priorities we don’t control.

          Always the business case. I got my boss to literally BUILD me an office not by whining about my desire for an office and my concern with huge loss of status moving from a really great office in another department to his department and my status and my seniority — but by saying ‘my job for you will be to do XYZ and to do that I need an office with these characteristics in order to ABC.’ (and then when I got the fancy new office, I made sure I very ostentatiously demonstrated I was using it for XYZ during the first 3 mos on the job — everyone walking by could see me doing this job they didn’t want to do. After that, I could have gone bowling. I didn’t of course, but reputation is established early on and it pays to think about a ‘performance’ as well as performance during that initial period.)

        3. NW Mossy*

          Remember, too, that asking questions can often be a very effective way of stopping a runaway discussion – the act of having to formulate a response will prompt someone to pause and think, and you can use their answer as a jumping off point for the point you want to make.

          I often like to ask someone to describe how they envision a particular scenario working after the change they’re asking for. It can definitely be a leading question (in the sense that you already know that it’s a Danger Will Robinson scenario) and a way to draw someone towards seeing what you see, especially if you follow up with further probes (what if we change this parameter, what if a customer doesn’t like it, etc.). You will likely also get openings to air specific concerns and gauge how they’re reacting – anything that gets a “hmmm” or an “oooh” is probably a concern for them too and your hook into your larger case.

          All that said, sometimes people are going to make decisions without all the facts and that’s just how business works sometimes. You’ll never be able to save yourself or anyone else from all the fallout all the time, so recognizing that a certain amount of this is inevitable can free you from the sensation that you’ve failed if you didn’t prevent All The Bad Things.

    5. ItsMe*

      Junior, I really got a lot out of a book called Crucial Conversations. They also provide training, which is helpful, but too $$$ if your company doesn’t cover it.
      I really liked it and got some good information from it.

      2. RockyRoad*

        I’ll second Crucial Conversations! My company hosted the training a few times, but if you went your department had to pay like $500 for each person who wanted to attend, which wasn’t doable in my case. Bought the book for $10 and it really made me see conversations and perceptions differently. Ended up taking like 5 pages of typed/bulleted notes.

  74. In it for the $$$*

    Any advice for someone experiencing “Golden Handcuffs”? My job has amazing benefits (high wages, great health care, onsite daycare and health clinic, generous 401K match, steep discounts on a desirable product from a sister company, etc.) but I’m really not interested in being here. I’m not passionate at all about the business, I don’t love the culture and I came back from maternity leave to find myself in another department, in another position (without a job description) and without a manager. I’m back 4 months and I finally have a manager and job description but not for anything I want to be doing. There aren’t a lot of positions in my company for what I do (communications/marketing) and to leave would really have a huge impact on my personal life. I’m looking around but I feel really stuck. Advice? Thoughts?

    1. Tableau Wizard*

      1) Take advantage of as much of the golden handcuffs as you can while you actively search for something else.

      OR

      2) Decide that you’re comfortable where you are for the stage of life you’re in (congrats on the new baby!) and that you can pursue more career interests at another time.

      It’s honestly okay to be in it for the $$$ for a little while (or a long while) as long as you’re weighing the pros and cons and not sacrificing your happiness/fulfillment/etc. for the money.

      1. J.B.*

        I have spent several years being ok with a lame job because of the lifestyle and am now moving on to something else. Even if this isn’t what you want to do, having a paycheck and keeping your expertise up is worth a lot. If you dread going to work every day that’s something else.

      2. In it for the $$$*

        It’s good advice but part of my problem is that I feel like I’ve already been settling for a few years (I’ve been here for 12 and haven’t felt valuable in at least 2 years). I guess I’m struggling with how long is too long to settle. How much longer can I stay and stick it out doing something I don’t care about for the sake of my kiddos (because the daycare is probably the biggest draw, followed closely by health benefits and salary).

        And thank you for the congrats!

    2. KX*

      Yup. I work with nice people in a great location with tons of flexibility and lots of time off but the work is dull and the prospects of advancing slim and the pay awful. And yet… when I job search, a non-flexibility job farther away and in traffic and with less vacation seems UNBEARABLE, even with the piles of extra money that would come with it. I am getting too old to make this salary (I don’t have that many years left before retirement, and college tuition is looming on the horizon) but BOY have I gotten USED TO THIS. Even as I worry and fret and complain.

    3. Nita*

      Me! I have plans for my own business. I feel a little burned-out and stalled (career-wise and in general). The commute is 2-3 hours a day. I’m getting seriously depressed, and work is a big factor in it. But if I quit to start my own business for relative peanuts, the people “close” to me will never let me live it down, and I’m 200% sure that no other job I find will have this level of flexibility. I’m quietly hoping I’ll get fired or laid off, but so far that doesn’t seem even remotely likely.

    4. What? Like it's hard?*

      I think the majority of people at my organization is experiencing the syndrome because they realistically can’t go anywhere else and be paid anywhere close to what they’re making here. I’m lucky because I’m in a specialized area that pays more if I were to leave so I’ve already started my exit plan.

      Have you taken a look to see what different career paths you can take with your experience? When you leave, it may be taking a bit of a step back (I’m looking at a potentially 20% to 30% decrease in salary) but you may end up in a better position in the long run. Like another poster said, take advantage of your compensation and budget accordingly while you look for something else. My organization is filled with people who are “stuck” and it is a bitter bitter place to be.

      1. In it for the $$$*

        I’ve started to think about what I’d really like to do, if money and childcare weren’t an issue. It would probably be a complete career change and a significant drop in salary so it’s not a move that I could make quickly. But I definitely don’t want to end up stuck and bitter because there are a lot of people here like that. Or people leave and then they come back because they realize that we’re one of the top paying large employers in the city.

    6. Natalie*

      Admittedly, if I was in your position the freaking daycare would be the biggest single reason for me to stay (stupid childcare crisis). If I were in your position I might decide that I was going to commit to staying here for X years, because I was getting what I wanted out of it.

      That said, whether you decide to do that or keep looking around, what if you started racheting down your budget a little bit and banking more of that high pay and cost savings? One of the main ways the golden handcuffs trap people is lifestyle creep – the extra stuff is a luxury at first, but over time it starts to feel like a necessity. If you can gradually increase how much you’re saving in both cash and retirement, you’ll benefit both in two ways. For one, you’ll be accustomed to a more affordable lifestyle, which will make moving to a lower paying job feel less painful. And, you’ll have built up a big pile of money to swim in like Scrooge McDuck.

      1. In it for the $$$*

        TBH, the daycare is probably the biggest draw after the salary. Both my kiddos go there and it’s literally a 2 minute walk from my building and it’s a fantastic center AND it’s subsidized by the company. It’s still expensive (because childcare just is) but it would be considerably more anywhere else. My oldest will be in kindergarten next fall so I’m hoping to stick it out until then to get him through because he deals really poorly with change. My youngest might be okay with a local preschool closer to home but then I worry I’m shortchanging her.

        As for the money situation, we don’t live too crazy. We don’t take extravagant vacations (or really any except a short weekend one during the summer). We have very little debt beyond our cars and our mortgage. There are probably some places we could cut and that’s a good suggestion to start doing that and to start saving up for when/if I leave. And I’d be totally okay with a big ol’ pile of $$$, ala Scrooge McDuck! :)

        1. Natalie*

          For the budget/money stuff, I would actually look at the little trickles more than big ticket purchases, just my experience. My spouse and I have had a bit of a rollercoaster in his career so I have some recent experience – when we’re both working, the amount we spend on stuff like eating out and TV subscriptions and random little junk for the house all just increases slightly, but when you add it up it’s hundreds of dollars. And obviously, some of that stuff is a natural consequence of, say, not having a stay at home spouse, but a lot of it is just us feeling like we can afford XYZ so we might as well buy it.

          I’m not sure how you and your spouse budget, but automating the savings is a really easy way to go about it, and after the first couple of checks you probably won’t even notice. Most direct deposits can handle multiple bank accounts so you could have a small amount saved every paycheck, or set up an automatic transfer with your bank. If you’re not at risk of hitting the max, bump that 401K percentage up by 1, too.

      2. nd*

        This is great advice and similar to what I would suggest. Sock away as much as you can, which will go a long way towards flexibility/freedom in the future. You would be surprised at how much you can cut without really impacting your lifestyle. When I lost my job in 2011, which was 2/3 of the family income, we did some serious cutting to survive on the other income and pathetic unemployment. With the income situation improved, we have added back very little of what we cut and are now saving more than ever.

    7. AliceW*

      One day while working in a “Golden handcuffs” job I realized that if I kept on saving I could retire very early and then do whatever the heck I wanted to and not worry about bills. I liked my job a lot better after I came to this realization.

      1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

        This is where I am right now. I like my job, some days better than others, but I’m in a really comfy position benefits and pay wise now and have decided I don’t really want to rock the boat.

        Husband and I are talking about the next phase in our lives, which officially begins when he retires with his pension in about 10ish years. We’re in the mode of saving like crazy and if all goes well* we can have some serious discussions about retirement, we’re in our mid-40s right now.

        In other words, I’m content now to put all of my efforts into saving and taking advantage of the benefits as a trade off to super exciting passion careers (which I’m not sure I would even know what that would look like for me).

        Heh… on my not so great days at work I start to ponder ‘retirement jobs’ jobs that I plan on taking after I leave my current one to pass the time, but I can leave at the door.

        *I am under no illusions that everything could go kerfloowie tomorrow, in fact I generally count on the unexpected happening.

      2. In it for the $$$*

        I’m still a good 15 years away from retirement and even that would be retiring about 10 years early. If I were closer, I’d probably suck it up but 15-25 years is way too long for that, sadly.

    8. Thlayli*

      I think there are far far more people working a job they don’t care about for the money and the benefits than there are people who have a job they love.

    9. Goya de la Mancha*

      Empathy as I’m in a very similar situation! I personally am branching out with my hobbies trying to find something that I really enjoy. Even if it’s expensive, I’ll be able to justify working at a “blah” job to be able to fund that hobby.

  75. Tableau Wizard*

    Our department recently interviewed a candidate. (well LOTS of them, but i’m speaking of one in particular, I’ll call her Jess). My boss and I spent about 45 minutes with Jess, than we gave her the regular test/case study that we give all candidates and she presented her findings and finished the interview talking to me. My boss was unavailable to stay because of a family emergency – normally she would’ve been there the whole time.

    I really liked Jess and thought she’d be a great fit for the team. She was more experienced that anyone else in the role, but she wasn’t looking to work at a higher level than we needed – a rare combination. She and I honestly hit it off and I was so excited to find someone that I super wanted to work with.

    My boss was afraid she wouldn’t be a good culture fit (read: ageism) and kept coming up with small comments that Jess made and twisting the interpretation into something that I genuinely felt wasn’t accurate. We kept looking for candidates and when there weren’t any ones even worth considering, my boss finally brought Jess back in to meet some of the other team members – to assess for culture. I personally think that my boss set Jess up to fail and get defensive, but either way, the team agreed that Jess wouldn’t be a great fit – my coworkers believed that she wouldn’t work well with boss even though she’d be great at the job. Fair points, and I moved on.

    Jess recently reached out to me on Linkedin, which I was thrilled by. But i’m not sure how to respond. She really wants to work at our mission driven org, but i’m not sure there will ever be a role here while boss is still around (she retires in about 4 years). Any thoughts? Specifically my boss used her standard language to “keep watching for other postings at our org” and jess is asking me what that means. How do I answer her without saying: “My boss doesn’t think you’ll work well with her, but there aren’t really any roles that make sense for you where you would avoid that”???

    1. Pollygrammer*

      If you know for sure that she’s going to retire soon, I can kind of understand some hesitance. I’d feel the same way if I knew someone was going to be moving out of the country in four years.

    2. AnotherJill*

      I would be leery of getting into a situation where you are communicating about a position outside of the “official” channels. I would simply tell her to keep her eyes open for other positions and wish her luck.

      1. Tableau Wizard*

        I am less interested in communicating about the position than I am with actually connecting with her. I really liked her and I’d like to keep in touch if I can. I imagine our paths may cross again in our niche field in the city that we’re both pretty rooted to.

    3. kw10*

      (Late response- hopefully it’s still helpful!) I was in a similar situation as Jess a few years ago: namely I got the sense that the main person in charge of hiring/interviewing wanted to hire me and was overruled by the higher-ups at her organization. She sent me this message:
      “I am writing to let you know that after a lot of discussion we decided to offer the position of X to our other candidate. But I wanted to let you know that I was very impressed with your background and abilities. If you would like I am available to help you in your search for a position that returns you to the X field. I believe you have a lot to offer and wish you the best in your search.”

      After that we met for coffee and she gave me suggestions for job searching in the field, offered to put me in touch with a few of her connections, etc. It was truly very helpful, not to mention very encouraging at a time when I’d been job searching unsuccessfully for a while. Shortly afterwards I did indeed get another job in the same field. I’ve stayed in touch occasionally with this woman since then, and we’ve run into each other at industry events a few times.

      So my suggestion for you is to reach out to Jess and offer to meet with her (if you think it would be appropriate). I would suggest steering away from details on why she wasn’t hired at your organization (definitely don’t talk about your boss not liking her), and focus on suggestions for job searching at other organizations in the field.

  76. Partly Cloudy*

    Questions about letters of recommendation:

    Should LoR necessarily be written by supervisors or is it okay if they’re written by peers? I saw an online application requiring a LoR and I’m wondering if it would be in bad form to submit one written by someone who is also one of my professional references? Is that overlap a bad thing, like I can’t dig up another person to say something positive about me, or does it not matter?

    1. Forking great username*

      I think this depends on the field and how much experience you have. I’m new to the teaching field, so for me it is expected that supervisors will write the letters.

  77. stitchinthyme*

    Just need to vent/whine a little…

    I’ve definitely had some issues with impostor syndrome, especially at my current job; even though I’ve been here five years, I still feel like I don’t know anything, and I’ve generally relied on my coworkers for help when I had questions. (Of course, I do try to find answers myself first if I can, but that often only works with general questions, not always for questions specific to the company and our actual products. We have some documentation I can look at, but not enough.) I also often don’t have enough to do; during my first year working here, I’d go to my boss a lot and tell him I needed stuff to do, and he actually made a negative comment about my going to him too much on my first performance review, so I stopped asking him anything at all after that. It got a bit better once they appointed project leaders, since I could just go to them when I needed something to do.

    Last month one of the three people I’ve worked with most closely left the company, and yesterday another told me he’d given his notice. (I jokingly threatened the third if he should get any ideas!) They were both project leaders who often helped me find stuff to do when I needed it, and I also learned a lot from both of them. Now I wonder if I’m going to end up being bored out of my skull because I can’t think of anything to do. I’ve taken a lot of initiative and done some cool stuff on my own mostly because I didn’t have anything else pressing, and my boss likes that, but the main reason for it is because I’m kind of out of the loop and just have no idea what direction things are going until someone tells me. In an effort to change that, I started going to the weekly meetings I’d previously been avoiding, but it hasn’t helped a lot.

    But anyway, I’m concerned that the loss of my two colleagues will mean I’m even more directionless at work. There are still a lot of things I like about working here (when I have work it’s usually pretty interesting; I like my coworkers; I have my own office; it’s a nice, casual, relaxed atmosphere; I can carpool with my husband since he works in the next town), so I’m not quite at the point where I’m ready to start looking yet, but I’m wondering how long before I get there.

    Bottom line: I hate change, especially at work. I know it’s inevitable, but in general that’s also one of the things I like about this place — there’s usually very low turnover and there have been no layoffs, so it’s been pretty stable. Just some rotten timing at the moment.

    Not really looking for advice, although as always, if anyone has any or wants to commiserate, feel free.

    1. WellRed*

      You are five years in and still looking up stuff regularly? And, do you have a job description with duties? Or, why don’t you know what they are? Do they exist? Or is it one of those roles the company thinks it needs but really doesn’t. Finally, if you don’t have enough to do and you are out of the loop, why are you skipping meetings? You wonder when you will get to the point of being ready to start looking? I think you passed it several miles back.

      1. stitchinthyme*

        I’m a software developer. I don’t have every single command in every one of the several languages I program in memorize, and it’s usually easy to find answers to those kinds of questions with a quick Google search. As for the software we write, much of it is not documented, the organization is kind of crazy making stuff difficult to find, and it can be hard to figure it out just by looking at the code, as I seem to be one of the few people around here who comments things. And although there are often things I know need to be done, like bugs I’m aware of and can fix, there’s also often times (like now) when the main project I’ve worked on most of the time since I’ve been here is on hold, but I haven’t been involved enough with other projects to know what needs to be done on them without guidance.

        I stopped going to the meetings a couple years ago when they appointed project managers; the understanding then was that the PMs would attend the meetings and let people on their projects know what needed to be done. That worked great for a while, until my aforementioned main project wound down and I never really got pulled into another one except peripherally. So that’s why I started going to the meetings again.

        And as I said, I hate change, and inertia is a powerful thing. I did discuss these issues with my boss recently and he said he’d work on making sure I had enough to do. He did give me one thing that was interesting, but that’s all so far. Anyway, it goes in spurts. It happens that right now I have enough to do, but I’m worried that in a week or two, I’ll be back to trying to come up with more improvements to stuff I’ve already spent many hours optimizing again.

      2. stitchinthyme*

        I would also add: in computer programming, there’s probably at least a dozen ways to do any given task. Some of those ways are simple, elegant, and straightforward, and others work but are convoluted and hard to understand. Each programmer has their own style, and those styles are as individual as fingerprints. I tend to try for readability in my own code, and when I can’t, I try to make sure there are comments indicating what it’s supposed to be doing. Not everyone does that — I’ve known programmers who use single letters for variable names rather than descriptive ones that tell what the variable is, programmers who don’t bother to indent or space consistently, and programmers who have never written a comment in their life. The people here, like everywhere, run the gamut, although most of it isn’t too bad. But until you’ve tried to find the one module out of several hundred that has the function you’re looking for, when you’re not even sure what that function is called, you shouldn’t blame me for asking questions of the people who actually wrote it originally.

        1. Paquita*

          I am not a programmer but I did take some classes. What the company needs is some kind of standards. I know there is a technical term but I can’t remember. The indentation/spacing thing, commenting the code, variable names, parens/brackets on their own line or at the beginning/end, all that should be consistent. That is a managerial problem. Doesn’t matter your opinion, the shop guidelines rule.

          1. stitchinthyme*

            There is a document with some coding standards, but they are not enforced. They’re given more as guidelines.

  78. Introverted Manager*

    I’m curious if anyone has any thoughts on kids in the office. It’s the end of summer, so two of my employees have kids who are between camps/summer programs and the start of the school year (I’m a parent too, but have never brought my kid to work with me), and they’ve been They are quiet and well-behaved (one is 9 and the other is 5), but I’m a little concerned about it becoming a habit, rather than an exception.

    By way of background, I’m relatively new (3 months in my position) and one of the employees in question has been pretty hostile to me as her new manager, so I’m trying to pick my battles a bit. And our institution is generally family friendly and accommodating, and we are non-customer facing back office. Would you say something now? Any suggestions on wording?

    1. Nita*

      I think it depends on company culture. In my office bringing in kids on gap days is normal, and it’s not a problem unless it becomes a habit, or interferes with one’s work, or the kids are really disruptive. If it’s just those two employees though, you may have more grounds for pushing back. For what it’s worth though, it may not be a battle worth fighting if the kids’ presence is not causing a problem, and they’re not in the office a whole lot.

      Are they? I mean… it’s the beginning of August. It’s another month until school starts. Are the parents planning to bring them in for an entire month?

      1. Natalie*

        I think history matters as well. If this has been allowed in the past, than rightly or wrongly the employees have come to rely on it. If you decide to forbid this, make it effective next summer, so they have the whole school year to figure out an alternative.

      2. LilySparrow*

        Our school starts the middle of next week.

        I agree that the impact/precedent issue depends on how many days we’re talking about.

    3. AdAgencyChick*

      I’m cool with it if it’s for, like, a day at a time at most, and the kids are chill.

      I once worked for an agency whose managing director brought her kids in quite a few times, and they were holy terrors. I’m pretty sure the one kid knew he could have me fired because his mom was my boss’s boss, and ordered me around accordingly. That…no thank you.

    4. Thlayli*

      It’s really really unusual in my country. I think it’s ok if it’s a once in a while thing for emergency childcare. But it’s really unfair on the kids long term.

  79. beanie beans*

    I haven’t been on AAM since starting my new job, which I guess is good since I’m busy and engaged, but man I miss all the stories!

    I’m definitely still in the “overwhelmed and questioning my competence” phase of the new job transition, but I’m out of the old one, so it’s progress!

  80. Happy McGee*

    Hooray for me! Earlier this year, I received a certification and should have received a bonus for passing the exam. However, it involved me reminding my boss to submit the paperwork. After waffling about reminding her and nervous that she would turn it down, I finally sent her a message reminding her to do it. She’s going to submit the paperwork today!

  81. Ann O'Nemity*

    Advice for purging & organizing your office?

    I’ve been at my current employer for 6 years and have accumulated a lot of stuff – files, folders, binders, etc. I have run out of storage space in my office, and run out of space for more cabinets or bookshelves.

    Does anyone have a good system for organizing or purging at work? I’m not the most organized person anyway, and my “just throw it away” philosophy at home doesn’t seem appropriate for work papers.

    1. Teapot librarian*

      Does your organization have a retention schedule? If it does, that will tell you what you can throw away after XX number of years.

      1. Ann O'Nemity*

        There’s a few specific kinds of files that we keep for 7 years. No guidance on everything else.

    2. Annie Moose*

      Couple things that come to mind–if you have an electronic version of anything (e.g. a manual or design document), toss the physical copy. You can always print it out again if you really need it later.

      Go through documents and separate them out by how much you use them/how vital they are–e.g. “stuff I use regularly” (don’t toss that!), “stuff we don’t need often but it would be Very Bad if we didn’t have it later” (don’t toss that either!), “stuff we don’t need often and could get by without”, “stuff I will never need”, “stuff I’m not even sure why I saved it”… and toss the less-vital ones.

      Also look at the date on documents; if something is more than two or three years old, do you really need it anymore? Maybe make a rule for yourself that you’ll keep everything in the “essential” category forever, everything in the “useful but not essential” category for three years, everything in the “might not need but not sure yet” category for a year… etc.

      Obviously if you have specific guidelines at your company/in your industry for preserving stuff, ensure those are met first!

    3. Fishsticks*

      Legally you may have to keep it for a while back. I think for where I work we legally have to keep it for seven years. My purge goes along the lines of keep contracts and stuff like that, throw out old receipts travel plans and anything that involves purchases from companies that no longer exist. Obviously with personal information make sure to shred stuff!

    4. Admin of Sys*

      I always seem to fix that by having to move – even in jobs I’ve been at for a decade, I end up losing the desk / office / reorg every 2 or 3 years.
      But on a more helpful note – definitely check the retention policy! Your company should have some official documentation regarding how long to keep certain paperwork, and may have rules about keeping things that aren’t part of the above category. (as in: keep financials for 7 years, hr for 5, and everything else gets removed at 1yr)
      If a lot of things are notes on creation of a project, see if you can strip down the file to the end result. It may not matter a year later that Sue wanted red teapots and Bob wanted green, especially in the end result was Fergus insisting on blue ones. You can just keep the ‘blue teapot order made by Fergus’ bit.
      Also – don’t be afraid to rewrite / summarize things that aren’t legal paperwork. If you have 15 pages of documentation on how a project came to be, and you really don’t need the meeting minutes anymore, see if you can rework that into 1 page of documentation about how the project currently stands. This can take a bit of extra time, but can be really useful, not only because you’re reducing paperwork but also to better summarize where you currently stand on projects and such.

  82. MakesThings*

    I’m in the middle of job searching, and this has been bothering me: am I completely misunderstanding the word “Analyst”?

    Like, I see job postings that have nothing to do with analysis, and it’s still has “analyst” in the title. I specifically looked at the job duties, and there is no market analysis, no business analysis, no data analysis, and no analysis of any kind.

    Any idea what this means, and how should I approach job openings where the duties sound like something I can do, but the title has the word analyst, and I have never been an analyst?

    1. Reba*

      IME it more or less means “junior or entry level position” not the actual job function!

      You could try to look at other positions and get a sense of the overall organizational structure.

      1. MakesThings*

        Thanks, good to know. I come from non-profit and science backgrounds, and this is weird and new to me.

    2. Echo*

      Yeah, it is a generic term–it implies “this role will involve some kind of analytical thinking or interpretation of info” but nothing more specific than that. My partner and I often laugh about the fact that our titles both include “Analyst” and we work in wildly different fields with almost no shared qualifications (law vs. consulting).

    3. The New Wanderer*

      In general I would trust the description more than the title. It’s not you, it’s misuse or overuse of a popular term.

      For example, I’m very qualified to do UX Researcher roles, but not UX Designer roles. However, I’ve seen many UX Researcher roles that list as requirements years of coding experience and wireframing, both of which are typical of Designer, not Researcher, roles. I even saw one UXR posting where the job description was straight up data scientist responsibilities with nothing resembling typical UXR responsibilities. And don’t get me started on “Research Scientist” roles!

      1. MakesThings*

        Oh yes, there never seems to be a standard. I’m always so pissed when I see what looks like a professional job in my field, only to discover that it’s a fundraising job.
        I have nothing against fundraising, but it needs to be in the title. “Project Officer” doesn’t clue me in that I’d be expected to hobnob with donors and manage fundraising campaigns.

  83. KE*

    Does anybody have experience with taking a leave of absence or temporarily moving to part-time or project based work, then returning to full-time?

    Back story: I’m newly back from FMLA after having a baby. I don’t feel ready to be back. (Besides my sweet baby, I have a parent undergoing chemo and my older child is having some challenges. It’s a tough time.) I know from experience, though, that I’ll be glad I’m working once the baby is older.

    I keep thinking it would be perfect if I could work less (or not at all) for 3 months or so, then return to my regular, full-time role. I usually like my job and am a high performer. I’ve used up all my FMLA and PTO from maternity leave.

    I know a lot of this is wishful thinking. But I thought I’d throw it out to the wise commenters of AAM to see if anybody’s done something similar or has creative suggestions. Thanks in advance!

    1. SoCalHR*

      some companies may approve an unpaid Leave of Absence. You could start there and see if that’s an option…

    2. Nita*

      I’ve both requested a longer leave in the past, and worked partly from home and partly from the office. Both made a big difference. I knew going in with the requests that my office is fairly flexible with these things. If yours also is, go for it! I hope things look better for you soon.

    3. Kerr*

      Someone in my office did exactly this: maternity leave, then went part time for several months before transitioning back to FT, so it’s possible! I’m not sure how it was structured, but it worked for her.

  84. Nichole*

    I’d like tips/thoughts on the following situation. I value negative feedback and want to continue to get that sort of feedback from my manager. I think that sometimes his feedback for me on my communication style is influenced by sexist societal patterns that criticize women for behavior that is considered entirely acceptable or even desirable when men do it.

    The most recent thing is he asked me to work on not interrupting people, citing specifically a circumstance in which…someone else interrupted me. I have a very good relationship with my manager and generally can be candid and open with him, so I do want to talk with him about this. I think as long as I can come at it from the right angle he’ll be receptive, but I really want to make sure I’m not making him feel like I shouldn’t get criticism. I just want…things that are more useful and fair. (For reference I work in an industry that is 90% male and my boss agrees that I’m generally very good at my job.)

    Any advice/thoughts?

    1. Reba*

      What did you say when he cited that example? Were you able to push back some in the moment? Is interrupting or speech patterns the main subject of the corrections?

      I agree that it would make sense to have a chat with the manager about the pattern as you see it. Make sure you reassure him of just what you have said here, that you value feedback both positive and negative. And that you know you do not have the perspective and context that your boss does. But then cite examples of when you are penalized for things that your male colleagues are not. Hopefully your boss will be receptive to this negative feedback ;) But it can definitely be presented in a collaborative way, rather than a call-out or an accusation.

      1. Nichole*

        I did mention in the initial conversation that I was being interrupted. My manager ended up saying that the other person didn’t realize they were interrupting me so therefore I should be more aware of how my speaking could come off. I think the hard thing is I obviously don’t know if these are things that are mentioned to my male colleagues or not, since I’m not aware of their performance feedback.

        In general I think my manager sometimes struggles with giving negative feedback, so I definitely don’t want to do anything to make him hold back on it. At the same time communication style is the only thing I’ve gotten feedback on and I really would like feedback in other arenas/to not have to try to second-guess everything I say.

        1. Reba*

          I guess it’s probably out of line to ask if he gives the same feedback to men about “being aware of how their speaking could come off” since they don’t “realize” they are interrupting you? SMDH

          Maybe in the next chat you could say that: “You have given me a lot of feedback on improving my communication style, and I have been working on that. Could we shift the focus a bit? I’d like to get feedback from you on other areas of my work so that my efforts can be more balanced with the priorities for this position. ” … or something?

          1. Nichole*

            I really like that sample wording, especially because my position is very technical in nature. So while communication is a big part of every job there are lots of non-communication related job responsibilities that I want to be improving on. Thanks!

    2. M. Albertine*

      Did you listen to Allison’s last podcast? It had a lot of great suggestions on soliciting critical feedback (which needs to be a separate conversation from the gendered criticisms). If you are having separate discussions on feedback that is genuinely useful to you, then you have more capital to push back on the criticisms that are unfair. It may even curb those other criticisms, because he may be floundering looking for things to “help” you improve on and offering them misguidedly.

      When he does offer gendered criticisms, be open to him, but there’s nothing wrong with pointing out that you were actually the one interrupted, and if you interrupted right back, you can tell him the reasoning behind the technique. From your description, it sounds like he might be one of those men who are horrified when it is pointed out to him how often it happens to women and he might become an ally in supporting your efforts to assert yourself. Maybe have a few articles in your back pocket about gendered office dynamics (I’ve been reading the archives and came across the discussion on men repeating women’s ideas on their own and the Obama staffers solution to that problem, for an example).

      1. Nichole*

        I did listen to it, which is part of what got me thinking about how I want to be careful that this isn’t stemming from defensiveness, but when I’ve thought through it really does seem to fall right in line with some very gendered concerns. I see what you’re saying about the separate conversations, and I appreciate the advice.

    3. writelhd*

      I think I am in a similar situation sometimes. If your boss is open and receptive, then it seems possible to bring it up but preface it with exactly that “I value feedback from you, including constructive criticism, so please continue to do it.” But then go on with something like “However I have considered the feedback you gave me on Y issue, and and will admit I did not find that particular feedback relevant. My perspective saw that really differently, and here’s why.” Maybe some discussion. I think it can be fine to even say “you may not realize this but in male dominated spaces women are often seen negatively when they have the same communication styles that are seen positively in men, and I do think that is part of what we are navigating here.”

      1. Nichole*

        Thanks. I think it’s worth mentioning the gendered element to him, because I want to get better at things and improve, but I also don’t want to be being judged harsher than I deserve.

  85. Ops manager*

    Hi- I am an operations manager, and sometimes employees are matrixed to me to manange. I am not responsible for their work, and it usually takes on a role of administering/facilitating reviews more than formal management. I give feedback if someone comes to me and wants me to (usually if they don’t know how to phrase it), but again I am not involved with the work.

    We have an intern who is managed by someone who has zero management experience. The intern does good work, but sort of acts like they are in college. All work becomes a long- winded discussion and conversation. Sort of like he gets input instead of just doing it. He also gives a lot of advice on how to improve things in an I’m in college and should always give my opinion sort of way. It isn’t intentioned to be rude, I think he just doesn’t get how work goes.

    His supervisor doesn’t know what to say – so I get to have this conversation. I don’t want it to come across like he needs to sit down and shut up, and can never give input, he just needs to give less. Any advise? I know it’s un-ideal for me to be doing this and not the person who gives him work, but that isn’t changing.

    1. Jessi*

      “I’ve noticed a lot of the time when you are given work to do it becomes a long winded conversation. Part of being an intern is learning the culture of the workplace – in our workplace thats too much imput. As you go through your career its really important to learn more about the company before throwing so many ideas out there, which since you have been here only x weeks you are still in the learning stage” Could also add “this is one of those things that can be very hard to judge when you are still new to the working world”

  86. J.B.*

    Paid IT (or IT adjacent) internships. I have a great problem to have – am going back to school and may have a part time job available along the way, and am in a strong position for some paid government fellowships. I have been working for govt agencies for a while and would like to pursue internships in private industry, related to project management or database design. I need to stay local though, and be paid something. I’ve also seen some ads “we’re offering you this great opportunity”…which isn’t great.

    Would college hiring fairs be useful to a grad student? When they ask for a particular technology are they looking more for “I’ve seen it and can handle software generally” or “I did my thesis on this exact thing”? Are meetups worthwhile?

    1. Kimberlee, Ranavain*

      I have a newsletter where I aggregate internship postings in the DC area (my website is linked in my name) if that’s of use. If you’re not in DC, I will say that project management and database design in particular might be hard to find internships for, just cause they’re not things that are easy to structure internships for. Dice dot com might be a good place to search for internships, or Idealist.org has a lot of internship postings right now.

      RE: fairs and meetups… eh. I think meetups are generally worthwhile for meeting people in your field, but those sort of networking approaches tend to not pay off as well if you’re looking for a job *now*. But at the very least, people there might know where the best places to look for internships in your field are!

  87. College Career Counselor*

    I’m currently serving on a search committee for a position with a candidate pool that was….less than robust. In fact, only one applicant had significant direct experience in the type of role (was not interviewed for other reasons), but this is a position where personality and transferrable experience are potentially qualifying. I’ve been disappointed in the candidates’ ability to articulate how they would transfer their experience/skills to the new position. Very frustrating, as I work at an institution that is willing to look beyond strict/rigid interpretations of degrees and experience, but you’ve GOT demonstrate that you understand how to make the connections!

  88. Decima Dewey*

    Yesterday my boss gave me my copy of the City’s new sexual harassment prevention policy. It’s eleven pages long, detailing what constitutes prohibited conduct in nine different areas, procedures for making complaints, procedures for investigating and resolving complaints, and emphasizing that all City employees and officials have a duty to cooperate with any such investigation. The last page is a form I had to sign and submit to HR indicating that I have received and read the new policy. The original goes into my personnel file. The City is serious about this, and a good thing too.

    In other news, Matthias the Crazy Part-Timer will not be returning to our branch or our library cluster. No shock there: after what he said to Mr. Lastname and Grandboss, there’s no way he could work with either. Unfortunately, he is still employed by the City. Although the library powers that be wanted to fire him (and had documentation of recent antics), HR is protecting Matthias. My thought is fine, so let him work in HR. It’s too bad Matthias didn’t have his meltdown before he passed his probationary period, but that ship has sailed.

  89. Rosemary7391*

    Does anyone have any advice on introducing systems that work for paper based and computer based access – specifically because they have to work for people who have no access to a computer, but it’s also driving me mad that I don’t have things like a schedule online. It’s a church if that helps – so more complicated in that we’re not all in the same room all day, in fact we only get everyone involved in the same room at the same time about once a quarter. We’re also lacking in established procedure generally since the two people who mostly ran the place for years are no longer doing so, so I’m trying to introduce systems that will work for everyone…

    1. LilySparrow*

      Are you talking about an interoffice system for scheduling staff meetings and resources like conference rooms, or a public-facing schedule of events for members?

      It seems fairly straightforward to use something like a Google calendar as the “ledger”, which one or two people can update but anyone can view, and then print copies for the offline people.

      Using collaborative calendars has made it standard for scheduling to change on the fly. Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, we had to make a lot more phone calls to reschedule things, or check with the “keeper” if we needed a resource.

      The churches I’ve been in recently use online public calendars and put weekly notices of upcoming events in the bulletin. Others I’ve dealt with use online calendars, snailmail a monthly newsletter with a calendar, and also use weekly updates.

      But what it comes down to is having a point of contact. Someone has to be in charge of what goes on the schedule, and they have to communicate changes on a regular basis.

      For public events and scheduled staff meetings, the onus is on the calendar keeper to push information out. For things like using resources, the onus is on the requestor to check if the resource is free.

      Those things are more about behavioral “systems” than tech systems, but it’s still a system.

      1. Rosemary7391*

        Thanks LilySparrow – that’s helpful.

        With the schedule, it’s mostly for the building – what rooms are in use when. We need a better system than collectively trying to remember who has agreed what with whom! I think part of my problem is that people who are in charge of things don’t know what discretion they have, so they want to check everything with me (no idea why me!) or take it to the quarterly church meeting. And we don’t have good systems for communicating between the various groups in charge of doing things, let alone groups who just use the premises. It’s all a bit of a mess. A very good natured mess, but still!

        I think you’re right that it’s more about behavioural systems than tech… I want to get more useful information on the website, but that’s more of the nice to have end goal than a priority. Apart from the schedule, it’s things like keeping track of pastoral groups, repairs, decisions get made but not implemented and rehashed 6 months later.

        Maybe I should write up a document for certain routine decisions (like renting the church hall for example), and what procedure they should follow to make sure everything happens as it should – who to notify, what documents to use, what the normal parameters are etc. I’ve already done similar for CCTV since that’s my responsibility to make sure everyone who accesses it knows what they can and can’t do. I don’t know if I could make it so that people followed it though… but if they did, that would be some stuff out of my hair!

        1. LilySparrow*

          Oh, my gosh. It’s worse than I thought.

          Yes you absolutely need a single ledger calendar for room rental/use agreements! Even if it’s a spiral-bound planner from the office supply store marked “Room Bookings,” that’s a start. You also need to have people signing forms to take responsibility for damages or liability, and make sure you’re meeting the building insurance requirements. It’s all “good natured” fun and games until the guest of a renter slips on the stairs, or somebody walks off with the bank deposit bag.

          You also need to keep minutes from meetings where decisions are made about repairs, status updates from subsidiary ministries, long-term projects, capital expenditures, etc. If you are incorporated as a nonprofit in the US, you have legally-required governance meetings, and these minutes may be subject to audit!

          Check out the site freechurchforms.com for some sample operating policy & procedure manuals – they have a facilities use policy, wedding policy, guest speaker policy, and a bunch of others. All free to download and modify to your situation.

          Gee whiz. I’m sorry it’s such a cluster. The people who used to be in charge did the organization a terrible disservice if they left it with no structure in place. I know it happens all the time, but it really makes me angry to see that. It’s like those parents who feed their kids until they weigh 500 pounds and can’t get out of bed, just so they feel “needed.” It’s selfish and abusive.

          1. Rosemary7391*

            It’s not quite that bad! Sorry, I made it sound worse than it is. I am somewhat surprised that we’ve not had any double bookings yet though (helps that we’ve two large spaces and they’re not often both in use except by very longstanding arrangements).

            I’m the secretary so all of these meetings are properly recorded and we have the finance stuff done properly according to local law (Scotland in this case). I make sure we stay on top of that! It’s just that smaller things slip through the cracks. I’m actually redoing the minutes format at the moment to help us at least see what is and isn’t being done from meeting to meeting. Building compliance is a problem though – we’re actually putting together a major project to address some longstanding issues there, so the other very capable person is busy with that. It’s the day to day stuff I’m trying to address.

            Good shout on checking for sample forms, policies etc – we’re actually part of a larger denomination so I could find a lot of the legalistic stuff there I reckon. We do get good advice so I’m reasonably confident that most of the major things are reasonably compliant apart from the building.

            I hold no ill will against the previous folks – they did their best in some difficult circumstances, and we’ve an ongoing problem with not having enough folk around to do what needs done. Actually one is still around – just her health and memory has declined to the point where she really struggles :( I took over the secretarial stuff from her. And I’m trying not to fall in the same trap of just doing it all myself! Tempting as it is, I don’t have the time…

            1. Ron McDon*

              I work in a school, and we let our facilities to local clubs etc.

              We have a lettings calendar. Recurring bookers are asked to let us know their upcoming dates at the start of each term (September, January and April), and we write these on the calendar.

              We ‘cribbed’ a booking form from the Church we are associated with. This lays out the date and time of hire, who the contact is for the booking, what the charge is, what room set up is required etc. Bookers fill this form out and return it to us to book the facilities.

              We also send bookers our lettings policy (which they acknowledge receipt of and confirm they will abide by on the booking form). This lays out everything from the condition the facilities should be left in, what is/is not included, what to do in an emergency etc.

              When we receive a booking enquiry we check the lettings calendar. If the facilities are free, we send out the booking form and policy.

              When the completed form is returned, we enter the booking in the calendar, put the completed booking form into the lettings file, and email anyone who needs to know about the booking (caretaker etc).

              This works pretty well – we only ever get a double booking when teachers book our hall for a parental meeting etc without checking with us first. If we didn’t have a calendar it would be a hot mess, I don’t know how you’ve coped this long!

              Happy to answer any other questions – this has turned into rather a lengthy reply!

              1. Rosemary7391*

                Thank you! This all sounds very sensible and reasonable.

                I think we’ve mostly coped by not changing things – most of our regular bookings haven’t adjusted times, we haven’t had many one off bookings etc. That’s not sustainable though.

  90. Anne, Not Anna*

    What’s the nicest way to tell someone they’re calling you the wrong name? Especially over email, as we’ve never met and don’t talk on the phone. It’s a common mistake, like Elle instead of Ella, or Alec instead of Alex. I’m not offended. Mildly annoyed maybe, I mean my name is in my signature at the end of every email. But I don’t know how to say ‘That’s not my name’ in a nonverbal way without it being misconstrued. Suggestions?

    1. Murphy*

      This happens to me a lot. “Ella” is a lot more common than my “Elle”. If it’s a one-off and/or someone I’m not likely to encounter again, I just let it go. But if it’s repeated or I know I’ll be contacting this person a lot, I’ll just add “It’s Elle, actually.” and then proceed with the rest of the email.

      I feel the same way though. My name’s right there! Like my email address is elle.murphy@company, and my signature says Elle Murphy, Llama Wrangler.

      1. Anne, Not Anna*

        Exactly my feeling! One time occurences I usually let go, however I didn’t catch it in time the first time we were put in contact. Someone forwarded his info to me for work, she introduced me as Anna and I didn’t catch it in time before he and another person were 3 emails deep. So I had to eventually be like P.S. I’m not Anna. It felt awkward at that point.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      I’d try to either nudge it into an opening and then immediately change the subject, or put it at the end of an email. Either way, don’t make a big deal about it, just calmly correct and move on, just like you’d do if they had any other information incorrect.

      “Thanks for your reply! BTW, it’s Anne, not Anna. ;-) Do these recent changes to the secret recipe mean blah blah blah…”

    3. Nessun*

      Dear gracious organizing principle of the universe, if you ever find a way to make this work, let me know!! It happens to me all the time, and I’ve basically given up. (Someone emailed me the other day, separately from a thread which included three other people, just to say “I’m sorry, I realized I’ve been calling you Nicole instead of Nicola, and I apologize for that in my earlier emails” – and I just about fell out of my chair!!) Nobody ever seems to read an email sig with enough perception to realize which name is mine.

      I just make it a personal mission to use everyone’s exact name as I see it on their sig, and hope they’ll somehow learn to do the same.

      1. Anne, Not Anna*

        You may have found the one decent, self-aware person in the universe. Congratulations!

    4. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Honestly? It’s probably not worth it via email.

      My mom has a common name, but uses the less conventional spelling (think Ashleigh instead of Ashley). People who have known her for her entire life still spell it wrong when they comment to her on Facebook, despite her name being right there.

      1. writelhd*

        I do too, with both my first AND my last name. It can be helpful to phone screen out solicitors who don’t really know me when they read it and pronounce it wrong–oooh, straight to voicemail. But randomly some of my colleagues who I’ve been working with forever still occasionally say one of the names slightly wrong, or spell them wrong, even though it’s spelled out on our work instant messenger and my nametag’s on my door and everything. I usually don’t bother with someone I’m not going to talk to again, but I do by either phone or email (just an, “actually FYI, it’s SFJLEFSDF”) if i’t someone I probably will talk to again because I talk to a fair # of clients and vendors who will also talk to my colleagues, and they might learn from those colleagues that they had it wrong and feel bad, so I don’t mind just issuing the correction.

      2. Anne, Not Anna*

        I understand the misspelling and I get that as well. However, this is a different name from mine. Similar, but still different. I see it as calling somebody Jon instead of Joe. To me, I feel it does warrant a heads up.
        I found a work around to nicely say it, given to be by a coworker. By chance, there is an actual Anna in my office. My coworker suggested I clarify my name, as ‘there is an Anna in the office, so we won’t have any confusion with future communication.’ I then played it off with happens all the time, as it does.

        1. JessicaTate*

          I find correcting and automatically adding the “don’t worry, it happens all the time” is always a good approach. It acknowledges that they may feel embarrassed and that you’re not mad, just correcting, and the correcting is important. I’m a Jessica that’s been called Jennifer so many times I can’t remotely count. (It happened last night with a guy I’ve known for years!)

          Don’t get me started on the assumed nicknames! Did I say you could call me Jess???

    5. M. Albertine*

      My last name is also a woman’s name, so I get called by my last name a lot. I usually let it go, but if I’m annoyed enough, I very sweetly tell them “Feel free to call me by my first name!” It’s nice, but just passive aggressive enough to make it satisfying.

      I wonder if signing your emails with your first name in addition to your email signature would draw enough attention to the spelling of your name to fix the problem.

      1. Bunnykins*

        I get called by my last name a lot too. It’s really annoying, isn’t it. Not only are you being called by your last name, but you’re also being identified as being the completely wrong gender.

        One mistake is one thing, but when someone keeps doing it, it gives me the impression that they don’t have an attention to detail.

        Signing my first name in addition to my signature also doesn’t work.

    6. Jack Be Nimble*

      I get wrong-named a lot, usually with names that are not even remotely similar to mine! If my name is Eve, I’ll get called Emily, Adrienne, Ashley, etc. I think I just have a generic face and people just call me by the name of someone else they know who looks kinda like me.

      I’m usually able to correct them by very warmly going “oh, it’s Eve, actually–I get that all the time!”

      1. Anne, Not Anna*

        How odd! I’m sorry that happens to you. A similar mis-naming is one thing, it’s a whole other thing to be basically renamed!

      2. SpellingBee*

        Okay, relatively brief funny story about mis-naming. Many years ago, when the rocks were still warm and there was no email and no direct-dial extensions, a job required occasionally calling a large company to get a piece of information. (What I’m getting at here is that you almost never got the same person on the phone, and the info was something they looked up and told you on the spot.). One time I called and identified myself and my workplace as usual, and told the rep what I needed. He responded by saying “Hold on, Carol, I’ll look that up for you.” My name isn’t Carol, doesn’t sound like Carol or even start with the same letter, and no one named Carol worked at our firm. I thought oh well, it’s one phone call; doesn’t really matter. So when he came back on the line and said “Carol?” I sweetly replied “yes?” At that point he went on to explain that he would have to call me back with the info . . . which had never happened before. And then he asked me “it’s Carol, right?” and of course I had to say yes because I had already dug myself that hole. THEN I had to dash out to the receptionist and tell her that someone was going to be calling and asking for Carol, and that would be me. Fortunately she was a friend so I could explain and we had a good laugh about it.

    7. BRR*

      My name is the less common version and it happens all the time, not the hill I would die on especially via email. It’s frustrating when outlook says it, it’s in my email signature, and I usually sign off my emails with my name as well.

      1. Anne, Not Anna*

        I agree, this isn’t an issue that I am up in arms about. Mild annoyance at worst. But seeing as I will most likely be talking with this person for a while (if only by email) I think it’s fair to correct.

    8. Kuododi*

      Oh goodness, that’s so low on the list of things I concern myself with….it’s probably priority 1005!!! Here we go…irl I would simply smile brightly and say something to the effect of”My name is actually Jane not Janet”. Same basic principles for email I would just put at the end something to say “FYI my name is Jane not Janet.”. Thanks so much… Best wishes

    9. Denise*

      “Oh, by the way, my name is Carlotta, not Carol. A lot of people have trouble with it.” Help people out. Sometimes the brain makes the word it expects to see; it’s not 100% carelessness. And some day one of these poor idiots is going to go nuts for twenty minutes searching for that important email from Carol.

      1. NewBee*

        Bleh, ignore that one. For me, it’s spelling, and I just correct it in my closing, e.g.,
        Thanks,
        Ann (no e)

        I’ve yet to have anyone do anything other than apologize or fix it moving forward, and I would find it…bizarre if they took offense.

  91. Indefinite Contract Attorney*

    My boss has asked if I want her to advocate for me to get a full time role at the place I’ve been temping for several months.
    But this place is dysfunctional and can be toxic.
    But…I am also criminally underpaid right now by the staffing agency and have no benefits. I’ve been applying for other jobs, but haven’t made much traction.
    I can’t decide whether I should go for it or not. I have no idea how their compensation is (but can guess it’s OK since most of the office has been here for 10+ years?) however, I know they nickle-and-dime their vendors and negotiate hard on that. So I’m not sure the best COA here: stay temporary and hope something else pops up, or go for it and hope they are willing to pay well?

    1. Reba*

      If you “go for it,” you’ll have more information that can answer some of your questions and help your decision. And even if you take the fulltime (if it materializes) you are not locked into staying in it, either!

      1. Indefinite Contract Attorney*

        But if they aren’t willing to pay anywhere near market rate, I don’t know that I could or should take it.
        However, even if they pay 30% under market rate, it’d be more than I’m making now and I’d still get benefits at minimum…

        I think part of it too is that it’s not an industry I want to stay in. But I’m learning a TON that could theoretically be tweaked and applied to my goal industry. So maybe that’s less of an issue than it is in my head.

    2. LadyByTheLake*

      It never hurts to have a conversation. In other words, it doesn’t hurt to get more information and consider it. Right now, you don’t have enough information. Go through the process, get more information, then make a decision.
      PS. Do we work for the same place, because we might.

    3. Jack Be Nimble*

      Continue the conversation, but don’t commit to anything just yet! You’re in a really good position to gather a LOT of data about the benefits and why people have stayed in their roles, which you can use to make your own decision. You may also be able to negotiate with the temp agency and ask for an increase in your hourly pay, or see if they have anything higher-paid available in your area now that you have a proven track record with them!

    4. Thlayli*

      Take it but continue to look elsewhere. If you end up leaving quickly you can just leave it off your resume.

  92. Be the Change*

    I’d like to get some perspective here….

    My husband wanted to go on a spontaneous vacation last week. I said yes, but that I *absolutely had* to be back at work on Tuesday morning for a major responsibility (staff evaluations). So we planned for me to fly back late on Monday night and he would stay a few more days.

    Well, I kinda anticipated that something would go wrong, so I wasn’t surprised when my plane was diverted to Las Vegas, which is driving distance from home. There was no way I could get a flight back that would get me there on time, also it would have been 12 more hours between airplanes, hotels, shuttles, etc. So, I got off the airplane, rented a one-way car, and drove home to arrive at zero-dark-thirty. Caught some sleep and made it to my meetings on time.

    My husband thinks this was bonkers, and I should have got the next flight — driving in the wee hours so I could arrive at my meetings was foolishly over-scrupulous if I had made a good-faith effort to get back on time (like scheduling an appropriate flight). *I* think, probably influenced by AAM here, that One Makes One’s Important Meetings If At All Possible, and it was possible. Plus, it was a *vacation*, not an emergency, that took us away.

    It’s of note that we work for the same organization, and his experience with it has been almost entirely negative while mine has been almost entirely positive. So he’s pretty jaded and unwilling to go to any extra effort, while I still feel a deep responsibility to our mission and I appreciate the people I work with.

    What say you — who is more “right” here? (I won’t repeat to my husband ;-) . It’s for my own information.)

    1. Graciosa*

      I think it’s the difference between what really good employees do (make every effort) and what may be done by reasonable employees who don’t actually care that much about their careers.

      I promote more of the former.

    2. Teapot librarian*

      Hindsight being 20-20, I might have discussed with my manager what she would want me to do in the event that something went wrong with the flight. In REALITY I probably would have done the same thing as you. Also in reality, I would have then proceeded to second-guess that decision all the way home and would have wished for another adult to have talked through the decision with.

    3. AdAgencyChick*

      I think there’s so much context that affects the answer. I’m on a team right now where a senior person thinks that my attendance at quite a few client meetings is necessary, but it’s really more about the optics and opportunity for face time with the client than my actual contributions at said meeting. So when I have travel issues (and thus far they haven’t been travel issues of *my* making, but rather things like my flight to the meeting getting canceled), I just cancel my attendance. The client can’t argue with “AAC’s flight was canceled,” right? I do think this senior person wishes I would try harder, and I would if I thought my actual contributions to the meeting were important.

      There’s a continuum between, say, “face time with client but little actual contribution” and “I am running this meeting that involves several senior client team members” and I would adjust my efforts to get there from “almost nonexistent” to “Herculean” based on where I think the meeting sits on that continuum.

    4. Not All Who Wander*

      I would have done what you did.

      Yes, things happen…but if I decide to add in a last minute fun thing when I know I already have a Really Important Thing already scheduled, then I feel it’s my responsibility to make sure I make that prior commitment. If that means spending extra money or inconvenience for me, that’s what I do.

      Now, if I have a trip scheduled months ahead and my boss arbitrarily schedules something the day I’m supposed to get back & something interferes with my travel schedule…no, I’m not going to bend over backwards to make it. (Not that this just happened to me recently or anything. And there wasn’t anything I could do about it because I was spent the night on an airport floor 1,500 miles away.)

      1. Jadelyn*

        I think this is the key distinction. You were on a spontaneous vacation, not something that you’d been able to plan around for awhile.

        Basically, I think the planned even should take precedence – if the vacation was planned and a new meeting was scheduled for the first day you got back, I wouldn’t worry as much about making it. But if it’s a meeting that was already on the calendar and you were gone on a spur-of-the-moment thing, yes, the meeting should take priority and I think you were right to make it happen.

    5. Secretary*

      I think you’re right not to be taking your husband’s perspective because his view on the organization is more negative.
      As for driving, eh. I think you’re the best judge of what *absolutely had* to be back on Tuesday morning is. Could the staff evaluations be moved by one day due to unforeseen circumstances without negatively impacting you professionally? If so, driving was a little over the top. If it would have hurt you professionally even if it wasn’t your fault, then driving was a good call.

    6. Rusty Shackelford*

      It’s of note that we work for the same organization, and his experience with it has been almost entirely negative while mine has been almost entirely positive.

      Gee, I wonder why. ;-)

      I agree with you. Emergencies are one thing, spontaneous vacations are another. And I don’t think “But I scheduled a flight that would get me home at 11 pm the night before my Important Meetings” is exactly making a good-faith effort. I think it’s more like “this scheme would have worked if everything had gone exactly right,” and is kind of letter-but-not-intent-of-the-law, if you know what I mean.

      1. Be the Change*

        He really has had a series of bosses who don’t care about him and his work, don’t respond to his ideas and often not even to needs for timely communication, and throw up roadblocks…plus has to work with incompetent departments who are non-responsive, etc etc. So, his negative attitude does have roots in real, actual, long-term bad experiences. He is certainly in a downward spiral, but I tell you, if I got drunk and could say to a couple of his former bosses what I think of them……! I don’t blame him. Whereas I have had extremely supportive bosses, lots of kudos and appreciation, etc., which accounts for our differences in reaction.

    7. LCL*

      I think you were right, given the purpose of the meetings. Is your company one of those where raises are dependent on evals? That would be really inconsiderate to postpone, if you could reasonably get there. And you said it was driving distance and you were OK with it, it sounds like the right choice to me. Obviously if conditions were bad and driving wasn’t safe, you would have had to postpone.

    8. Come along Ponds*

      I would have done what you did. Because it’s in keeping with the spirit not just the letter of the law, as it were.

    9. Kendra*

      Only sort of related, but your story reminds me of the lengths that the Brooklyn 9 9 *warning spoilers ahead*) team made to get Captain Holt to his commission’s interview.

    10. nd*

      I would have done exactly what you did. Maybe not necessarily to be able to attend the meetings, though that would have factored into it. But I live in Southern California, and knowing I could drive home in 4-5 hours versus being stuck in an airport etc for 12 or more hours, no question.

      1. SemiRetired*

        Interesting example. I want to ask what you consider “driving distance.” My theory is that this could be a regional perspective. Since you mention Las Vegas it might be a westerner’s perspective. As a westerner you probably consider several hours to be “driving distance.” I’m a Midwesterner; I think it’s less than 3 hours. An easterner might think less than two. The calculation of urgency vs feasibility might come out differently on your husband’s scale due to the latter.

    11. Denise*

      I would have done it. I almost always schedule a slush day at the end of my vacations for that very reason. I remember being in an airport line behind a frantic doctor on Christmas Day when our flight was canceled and she realized she had to cancel 20 or 30 patients the next day. Likely the first few would already be on the road by the time her office could call them. I had the next day off, so my patients were fine. Just a gift I was able to give to myself and my anxiety.

    12. WellRed*

      If the evals are That Important, I would not have chanced a night before flight. Is it that awful to push them back a day? (I, mean, were the evals curing either world peace or cancer?).

  93. The New Wanderer*

    In the category of people trying to be helpful during my job search:
    My mom read an article about continuing education and job transition training. It specifically called out a cert program in Data Science at the local state university, so she thought I might be interested. During our weekly phone call, she describes this whole article to me as I keep trying to tell her I’m literally doing that cert program online (different school, same topic) right now and have been for a couple weeks now (which I have told her about). She continues to say she’ll send me the article and link in case I’m interested in the local uni’s version. Okay.

    Found a few more jobs to be motivated about enough to apply, so that’s heartening. Not hearing back is less good, but I haven’t given up entirely!

    2. Jessi*

      wait for her to send the article – send back
      “How funny! interesting that the universe should bring this in front of you when I’m covering this right now in my cert course! Local state university and My school must offer the same program” ?

    3. Kivrin*

      I lost my job in March, and I’ve been taking some time off before starting to search again.

      My father interrupted a phone conversation I was having with my mother (and talking to Dad on the phone is tough because of his hearing loss), to tell me that he looked online and found that Teapots Unlimited (a Fortune 100 company) was in my area and maybe I could get a job there! Thanks, Dad. There’s no way that it would have occurred to me, a teapot designer, to notice that Teapots Unlimited was fifteen miles away. (He didn’t even find actual teapot designer listings, just noticed that there was a large company in close proximity to me.)

      I couldn’t decide if it was more maddening or sweet.

  94. Friday Anon*

    I still interact with my old horrible company at times. My old company is contracted with my new company (they work for us). I notice that when we need something from oldjob and I am involved, my old boss becomes unresponsive. For instance, I manage a mailbox that has a general address such as TeaPot.Department and everyone in my department can answer questions from it but it’s my duty to answer the bulk. Every now and then a question comes in from oldboss of which my reply needs follow-up from them (oldboss). I notice that if I am the person replying to the email, she will not respond. For instance a higher up sent an email with her CC’d saying: Hello Teapot department, what are the requirements for the monthly memo, I want (old job) to write an article about their New Teas and I want it published next month. I gave the requirements of the memos which is another of my duties. She never responded and never submitted the memo.
    Recently I was working on another of my projects and they were to submit data to me for a meeting with a lot of higher ups. This time I followed up with someone else, a manager at my current company, and said can you reach out to (old job)? The document you sent me said (oldboss) would supply additional data for the upcoming meeting. The manager forwarded my email and she never submitted the data for the meeting. Higher ups asked where was the data and I simply replied: Oldjob didn’t submit it.
    Having worked under her I know she is VERY invested in responding to EVERYTHING from this company. It’s a really important account. She seems to be responsive but only if I’m not involved. I’m not the only staff that has come over to this company. Weird.

    1. rubyrose*

      Sounds like old boss has some heartburn about your leaving.
      I think I would explain to my manager what is happening. Not so much to ask your manager to intervene at this point, but just so she knows the situation. Your old company works for you, and if they can’t respond appropriately, there is leverage there.

      1. Friday Anon*

        I agree that if it continues I will need to escalate. I need to be able to do my job and expect a response just as everyone else responds promptly (or provides a response as to the hold up). I am always nothing but professional in any interaction as if I had never even worked for her. I’m starting to wonder if there is some sort of hidden issue she has with answering to me in any capacity.

    2. ..Kat..*

      You are nicer than I am. I would have emailed the boss of oldboss and told her that old boss is unresponsive.

      I agree that the professional thing to do is explain to new boss what is going on and ask her how she would like you to handle it.

  95. user41268*

    I’m so depressed.

    I have a toxic job, where there’s no communication, all possible manipulations are used against you, where you are treated aggressively by both boss and other people. You are accused of doing things you haven’t done and nobody cares you didn’t.

    Then, I have no real tasks. I’ve been asking my boss for the clarification what I’m responsible for for months. Without success. I’m doing things several levels below my level of education and experience. I got employed to control something I don’t control.

    I’m looking for a new job but it takes time and in the meantime I’m being offended, shouted at and laid about. I’m incredibly frustrated. I hate every second of being in the office.

    2. Secretary*

      Good luck with your search! Don’t let a toxic job get in the way of aggressively looking for a new job. Also remember to check your resume/cover letter with Alison’s advice to get you more interviews!

    3. Jadelyn*

      Ick, that sounds awful. The only advice I have (other than GET OUT NOW, but you already know that part) is to try to stay detached from the crap as much as you can. I’m fond of the “pretend you’re an anthropologist studying a fascinating new culture” approach. Bonus points for narrating documentary-style in your head, double bonus if it’s in David Attenborough’s voice.

      “Here we see the Common Middle Manager posturing at another of his kind. This display is intended to establish a pecking order between Middle Managers, as well as to maintain his dominance over the Basic Peons, who are watching closely for any signs of weakness in the Manager that might allow one of the Peons to move in on his territory.”

      “These vocalizations are quite common to the Middle Manager species. Although loud and obnoxious to the human ear, they serve the important purpose of making the Middle Manager feel better about his sad lot in life.”

  96. Rookie Biz Chick*

    Hey there! I’m trying to gain some perspective on a potential biz issue – our employee is moving. I’m supportive for him personally, but there are some biz impacts to work through. I think I’ve figured out most of them – remote working, workload management, more thoughtful check-ins – but there’s the mileage issue. Most of our current projects are in our home state, and we typically ride together when we visit. Now he’ll be driving separately as well as about 300 miles or more farther roundtrip. We’re a super small biz and just not in a place yet to absorb those costs (and rental costs aren’t much less).

    Any ideas or experience in structuring an agreement that keeps him able to travel to meetings but without the impact to the business? Thanks, awesome AAM peeps!

    1. Rosemary7391*

      Could you indicate that travel reimbursements will be calculated from the home office? Although realistically, how long are they going to be happy with travelling all that way at their own expense?

      1. Jadelyn*

        That might not be an option depending on where they are – California law is fussy about that, for example. If the employee regularly commutes to the home office, then you could do reimbursement from home office to event rather than employee’s home to event since employers are not required to reimburse regular commuting mileage; but if their regular worksite is remote, the mileage must be calculated based on that.

        1. Natalie*

          California is the only state that requires employers reimburse employees for business related expenses, so they’re probably the only state with rules about how that reimbursement is determined.

          The IRS does have specific rules about what reimbursements can be excluded from taxable wages, and this would probably qualify since it is not the employee’s normal commute.

          1. Jadelyn*

            Really? I didn’t figure all states would have it, and I know there are no federal regulations on it, but not even like…NY or something? Huh.

            (Every time something like this comes up I am grateful all over again that I live and work in California. Both because yay employee protections, and because after this doing HR in any other state has got to be a breeze, relatively speaking.)

    2. Undine*

      If he’s moving out of state, I believe you have to comply with employment law in the other state. Are you set up for that?

      1. Rookie Biz Chick*

        A question I have as well – state labor laws and taxes. I’ve asked our accountant and insurance folks for their take first, as they are both small business owners and work with many small businesses in our region.

        1. rubyrose*

          Hoping you include work comp in the state labor law piece of this. I can attest from hard experience that he would be covered by work comp in his state, not yours.

          1. Rookie Biz Chick*

            That’s the plan so long as it’s not overly cumbersome in that state, and I don’t think it is. I’m not sure if there’s a real definition of remote and if this set-up counts? We’ve been super flexible from the beginning, so we’ve both just worked from wherever we area. But, yes, planning to comply with the new state requirements on workers’ comp as required and/or as it makes most sense.

    3. Natalie*

      Did you really want to keep him on post move, or did he really want to stay on, or was it a bit of both?

      1. rubyrose*

        Excellent question. Depending on the cost of keeping him (dependent on state laws) vs his worth to the company, is it worth it to keep him?

        1. Natalie*

          Cost & ethics, IMO. I’m probably not going to check back so cards on the table: in general, I think it’s unethical to make employees shoulder the costs of a business, no matter how small of a business this is. I don’t believe anyone is entitled to be a boss at the expense of their employee’s paycheck. Feel free to disagree, but that’s where my opinion is coming from.

          So, if you wanted to keep this employee on despite the move, it is incumbent on you to figure out a way to pay his mileage. If you can’t afford that, well, then, you can’t afford to have a remote employee with this set up, and you should figure something else out. Perhaps you get a Go Pro and he does a virtual site visit or something.

          If this is something he pushed for significantly, than you are more or less off the hook on the ethics, but I still think it would be the right thing to reimburse his direct costs for these visits (that is, gas). The mileage reimbursement rate takes into account indirect costs and so is substantially higher than that.

          1. Rookie Biz Chick*

            @Natalie and @rubyrose – definitely want to keep him on forever! or as long as possible. It was his idea to move for a partner, and I totally was in for making it work. The reality of it all is beginning to set in and the tax and insurance and compliance parts are it are emerging for me to figure out.

            I totally get and agree with the premise that I should find a way to manage all the costs if I want him to stay. I know he wants to stay, because the gig is soooo good, personally and professionally, short term and long term.

            We aren’t meeting just to do admin stuff; I really want him to be in on client and agency meetings because that’s where all the technical understanding and recommendations he develops meet the gritty execution for the client. For us, that’s mostly modeled in person.

            I don’t want him to miss out on that because we can’t afford an extra $1500 per month. But, we can’t really afford an extra $1500 per month right now. Projections say maybe this time next year, but ???!!

            I’m trying to fast-track the ideas and biz plans to market more in his new state – because it’s definitely been on the list – but a zillion other priorities make it tough right now.

            We’re in an old-school industry that’s fairly resistant to tech, but we’re making a solid push for dragging ourselves into this century, so maybe there’s something more to that.

            Thanks, y’all. Really appreciate the ideas!

  97. Teapot librarian*

    I had a meeting with one of my employees yesterday (NOT Hoarder Employee–that was a different meeting) during which he said “you’re beginning to see just how much we do here!” I was very proud of myself for responding in the moment, calmly, that I have been his director for almost three years and I have known how much the office does since the beginning. What I *wanted* to say was “if you didn’t spend so much time justifying to me how busy you and everyone else is, I’d believe you more.” (My staff is unquestionably responsible for five times the amount of work that we have the time to complete. I don’t actually doubt this employee’s busy-ness or commitment to doing a good job. But he does bring it up every time we have a meeting and every time he wants to skip a meeting.)

  98. Chloe Denmark*

    How to work with people in other time zones when you have issues with project-direct reports meeting timelines or project needs?

    I have a project direct report, Mark, in another office. He is an expert in his field, while I am not and I try to let him work on project requirements as autonomously as possible. However, it is my responsibility as a project manager to make sure that client requests and requirements are met by my company’s staff that is working on the project. Oftentimes, when I pass on information, directly, such as, “The Client has requested us to use Arial font, size 8 in our reports,” the immediate, whether through phone conversation or email, feedback from Mark is “but I did it in Times New Roman 10.” Mark’s tone comes off as defiant and cross so I try my best not to get defensive but it constantly feels like he’s second-guessing or trying undermine me. I generally try to continue to make the request and reinforce that this isn’t a special request from me but something from our clients. Sometimes the request gets completed, sometimes it doesn’t, and sometimes it doesn’t get completed in a fashion to meet overall project deadlines. How do I work with Mark, and other reports from offices, to get them to understand these client requests/requirements? I have in the recent past used, “I understand how the work has been completed on past projects, but that’s work for a different client,” or “I know this is potential rework for you but to meet contract requirements we need to do X,” or some variation of those. However, I continue to get pushback with each slightly different request or request made down the line.

    It is important to note that Mark does not report to me in terms of HOW to do his job, vacation, salary, and typical managerial things, only in terms of items specific to the project(s) that we work on. Mark is in a different office than me so meeting face to face or even getting phone time with him is difficult. The phone time is a byproduct of office culture at our specific locations as well as different applied work hours at these offices, unrelated to time zones. I have learned that when possible to address an issue in person but obviously that’s just not possible in every case.

    My past strategies are not working and I’m curious if anyone has any suggestions. I try to stay level headed, but when I receive these comments from Mark, even after saying things like “this is a client requirement,” the work still does not get completed, or completed on time. I have spoken with Mark’s manager about this as well and nothing has changed. Any help is appreciated.

    1. Jadelyn*

      Is this the kind of thing where you can send wrong stuff to the client, let them send it back, bounce it back to Mark for correction, and then make sure Mark and his manager (and any higher-ups) are aware that Mark is responsible for the delay and costs incurred for it?

      If not, how firm are you being? It may be time to pull out the in bold, underlined, everyone and their mother on the CC line, “This is not an optional request. This is a requirement for your deliverable, per client specifications. Please ensure that your final deliverable meets this requirement along with the existing spec.”

    2. Thlayli*

      You need to contact marks boss. Mark is basically refusing to do key parts of the job that his boss has assigned him to, and his boss needs to know that.

    3. rubyrose*

      Agree with the other commentators.
      Also, is there any way you can make a quick check of his work when he first turns it in, so you can immediately send it back and emphasize the deadline? Of course cc his manager.

  99. seller of teapots*

    Help! I’m a new manager an I’m totally overwhelmed. I’m two months in, and I’m afraid of burn out.

    I recently was promoted to manage my team–a team of 16, and we’re hiring another 15-20. (These numbers would not be my choice, and I’ve pushed back where I can, which is why the range is 15-20 vs the previous 20, but largely this is the size of the team.)

    As a sales manager of a remote team, having regular 1-on-1 calls is one of the most important thing I can do to support my team, so I do 30 mins alls on alternating weeks. I lead three regional team calls, which are also very important. And then I’m pulled into a bunch of meetings for related issues–customer service weekly call, managers weekly call, etc. Then there’s meetings for one-off-projects (we need to build a teapot user guide for customers, we need to improve the way we process leads and feed them to reps, etc.) AND now there are interviews for this huge new group.

    As you can tell, there’s very little time for me to do the non-meeting work. And when I do get to that time, I often feel so burnt out I can’t do much beside answer a few emails and read AAM until my next meeting.

    I’ve tried turning down meeting invites, with some success, and I’ve tried delegating when appropriate, but I’m just feeling….tired.

    Before my, there wasn’t anyone in this role! Which was a serious problem (as you can imagine) but there’s no precedent for how someone else managed it. On the downside, I do not think my boss, who I *really like* would respond well or be helpful to me asking for help prioritizing. On the upside, she’s hands off enough that if I could figure out *what* boundaries to erect and what to say no to, she wouldn’t even bat an eye.

    Any advice or insight? I really love this work; I just want to find a way to do it without feeling so burnt out.

    1. sometimeswhy*

      My first couple years in management were so hard (and they were hard ON TOP of difficult personal stuff). I ended up seeing a therapist for a year to sort through all the complexity. She kept reminding me that it takes at least one, maybe two years to get good at/comfortable with new things. The first year is never the forever-normal. Mine was sort of the inverse of the honeymoon phase.

      And I’ll be damned. When the second year passed, there was an almost palpable lifting. I’m still looking to be better and do better every day. I still screw up. The job itself is still hard and stressful but it’s no longer compounded by the unavoidable ignorance of doing an entirely new thing.

      1. seller of teapots*

        Ah, this is such a good reminder that it’s not my job to be perfect at everything 2 months in. I have a real complex about wanting to do everything just right, the first time, so this is a really helpful reminder. And I’m a big fan of therapy, so maybe this is a nice gentle reminder to get back to that.

    2. Rocinante*

      One direct manager for 30 employees seems very unsustainable. Especially since it sounds like you don’t have any dedicated support. You should try to push for some of the people you’re hiring to be dedicated to helping you manage. I don’t know which of these makes sense for your environment but the solution could include:
      1. Assistant managers that split the sales team into groups so the assistant managers will do the one-on-ones with staff and you do more of the higher-level meetings and one-on-ones with the assistant managers.
      2. A “special projects” person who does one-off projects full-time so that you don’t have to devote time to projects and you can focus on managing.
      3. An administrative or executive assistant who can help you with scheduling, fielding calls, etc. if you’re overwhelmed with administrative tasks.

      Whatever you decide you do need to let your manager know that if nothing changes (and possibly even if it does) you personally don’t have time to do any special projects. When you’re managing 30 people (by yourself!) it’s just not possible.

      1. BRR*

        I also think that’s way too many direct reports. There needs to be a little more hierarchy. I would also see if you can have other people sit in meetings for you and block off time on your calendar to get things done.

        1. seller of teapots*

          I agree that it’s way too many. But I also don’t see having any leverage to change that for at least a year, if not longer. On the upside, I know I’m making a positive impact for my team, and after I do this for a little while, I’m very confident I could go on to get pretty much any teapot sales vp job in my industry if I don’t want to stay here.

          1. Troutwaxer*

            Maybe there are some ways to set this up which don’t require a larger budget. Can you people up as “team leads” or some kind of informal title, with the idea that once you get the budget/permissions there will be formal titles and perhaps raises? Then your “team leads” handle the day-to-day stuff and report to you, and you’re available to make policy and do the higher-level stuff?

      2. seller of teapots*

        This is very helpful advice. And, honestly, I hadn’t even thought of this as an option before. I think, especially with some of the special project stuff, there are probably people I can designate to attend the meeting in my stead and represent our team. That’s a pretty easy thing I can implement right away, actually. Thank you!

    3. Thlayli*

      Would a 30 min call with each team member each month be ok? Is it absolutely necessary to do it every 2 weeks?

      1. seller of teapots*

        I’ve thought of this! And it may end up being what I do. But during our busy season things move so fast, that even every other week is a little bit of a disservice to my team. Every month turns the calls into something of a status update, but when they are more often they are more about problem solving, if that makes sense.

    4. Kimberlee, Ranavain*

      I’m always a big advocate of getting more folks involved in hiring. If you’re hiring so many new positions, maybe you can identify 4-6 folks on your team that are interested in developing their leadership skills and would like to get involved in hiring? Obvs you’d need to provide guidance, make final decisions, etc, and there’d be a training lift, but if you could get some of your team handling a bunch of candidate interviews while also giving them positive professional development for free, that’s a win-win to me!

      1. seller of teapots*

        Oh, yes, thank god I have a lot of support! Someone else is screening resumes and doing first round interviews, two other folks are involved in the 3rd round, and we make decisions (pretty easily, it turns out) as a group of four. I think I’d actually lose my mind if I had to take the lead on hiring. Haha.

        But your comment makes me think–there are ways re: hiring I’m feeling responsible to take on more than I need to, when there’s this larger team deciding. Maybe I can lean on them a bit more through this process!

  100. Erika22*

    I got an informal job offer and and am feeling optimistic about a second one for a different position at the same company. I should be super happy, and I’m definitely relieved, but…. I’m not super crazy about either position, and they both pay decently but not well enough to increase the excitement. I could decline and keep hunting, but I’m also worried about the gap this is leaving on my resume (3+ months unemployed due to a move) and extending my search into the holidays. And really, I’m not feeling excited about any of the jobs I’ve been applying for, so it feels like I might as well just take one and give it a year? For what it’s worth, the hiring manager for the optimistic second offer explicitly talked about how the person in this position would have opportunities to see other parts of the organization and will have plenty of professional development opportunities. And I know this is a good company to work for. I think I’m also just feeling guilty because the first hiring manager is putting in the work to check my visa status (which isn’t straightforward right now because I’m waiting for my new visa in the mail) to get me the formal offer, which I may just turn down if I get the second. I know this is all part of the hiring process so it’s not a huge deal, but still. And regarding the jobs themselves, I’m just reminding myself that I wasn’t very excited about my previous job when I first started, but it turned out to be a fantastic experience for me.

    tl;dr I hate all the different forms of uncertainty that come with job hunting

  101. anonMW*

    A couple of questions that I’ve been curious about. First, is there any relationship between the time an employer makes you wait for their decision and the time you can expect them to wait for yours? Specifically, if the employer moves very slowly and you have to wait a long time, would that make it OK to ask for more time to make your decision?

    Second, is accepting a conditional offer any less “binding” than accepting a firm offer? For example, if you accept a conditional offer, and during the time they’re finalizing it, you get a firm offer, would it be bad to just take the firm offer?

    1. Nicole*

      Unfortunately, in my experience no. Usually time frames for making a decision are pretty similar no matter how long the process takes.

    2. BRR*

      1) No. It’s pretty much set at a couple days.
      2) Depends what you mean by conditional but I think a firm offer trumps a conditional offer.

  102. Antifashionista*

    Scripts and tips for coaching someone to be more extroverted?

    My organization is extremely collaborative and relation-based. My newest hire, Violet, is smart and hard-working, but very quiet. I’ve encouraged her to set up meetings with people and to join committees. She’s admitted it’s difficult for her to reach out to people, although I get the sense it’s plain old fashioned shyness, not a mental health challenge. She doesn’t say hello to people in the hallway, when she gets to a meeting she doesn’t make small talk unless someone else initiates it, and in a group she tends towards silence. I’m now getting feedback that people are taking her silence as dislike, and colleagues are hesitant to ask her to work on projects with them. Being friendly and a team player is essential in this position. Previously I simply asked her to work on meeting people, but obviously I need to do more to help her succeed. In these earlier conversations, Violet has not been adverse to the suggestion or disagreed with the need, so I think she just needs a more structured coaching. Any ideas?

    1. Nicole*

      Is she good at speaking up in a professional setting? One of my old co-workers joined my company right out of school and was quite shy. My supervisor at the time did a great job of giving her oppurtunities to speak- if we were in a meeting with a lot of strong personalities, he’d interject to say something like “Jane, we haven’t heard from you yet? What do you think?”- and then he’d value/consider what her response was. He’d also do this with small talk- if everyone was asking about people’s weekend plans, he’d ask her in order to get her involved in the conversation.

      What this lead to was my co-worker becoming a lot more comfortable and confident at work, and she soon started letting a lot more of her personality show. I won’t say she became an extrovert, but she’d communicate enough and in such a way as to develop relationships (you don’t have to be an extrovert to build relationships!)

      So maybe just start looking for ways to boost your emlpoyees confidence and let her know that her voice is being heard and respected?

      1. MechanicalPencil*

        I would agree with Nicole.

        I’m an introvert who is mildly quiet, though hardly shy. I like to observe and watch people before I engage. You’ve admitted Violet is a new hire, so she’s already adjusting to a new workplace in which there could be different norms and faces to remember. Is she a team player in that when asked she helps? Does she offer assistance proactively? There’s nothing wrong with being quietly helpful and dependable. She was hired for a reason.

    2. Secretary*

      Don’t tell her to “be more extroverted” because that’s a personality thing.
      It sounds like the real issue here is that she doesn’t have the people skills. Shyness is a habit not a personality. If she’s brand new it might just be her getting used to a new workplace.

      What I’d say is to talk to her about building friendly relationships with her coworkers, and offer if she would like coaching on how to do that to come ask you. IF she asks, you can tell her things like smiling more or saying hello to people when you see them.

    3. LQ*

      For me one of the things that helps a lot is to simply frame it as a requirement of the job. Part of the job is building relationships, here’s some tips on how to do that. Part of the job is speaking up in meetings, here’s some suggestions that might make that easier, are there tools she can get/you can get her that would make it easier. Part of the job is being approachable, here’s a few cheater ways to do it and a few good long term ways.

      (Tips for her might include things like greeting people briefly in the halls, learning names of people she’ll be working with (I highly recommend a let me take you around and introduce you briefly if you haven’t done it formally yet – because it does like 6 good things, you get to compliment someone in front of them to Violet, you get to compliment Violet to person in front of her, you get to do introductions, you get to have a tour, and ideally Violet will get a chance to see how you interact with people in a collegial and warm manner that is expected – find a time when it is slowest to do this), candy/doodle paper at her desk for people to stop by and eat/doodle on, writing thoughtful thank yous to people after a project is over, complimenting others to people when they can hear it, complimenting others when they can’t hear it, getting an agenda ahead of time and coming up with 3 good questions, having a set of go to “small talk questions” the weather, people’s pets/children, sports, awesome science thing, “how’ve you been”, “did you see” which is something in the building physically or near by)

      2. Artemesia*

        This. I am an introvert and my jovial project partner in the workplace was also. You would never guess from his behavior in conference or group settings and I am pretty good at being outgoing and initiative taking as well — but both of us recharge with solitude. Shy is a behavior. There was a time when I was ‘shy’ in group settings. You change it one interaction at a time and naming it as a behavior and giving lots of examples of how to behave is the way to go. Don’t call it ‘shy’, indicate that she needs to ‘greet client with eye contact and a handshake’ and initiate small talk. e.g. some work appropriate examples. She needs to initiate discussions of the project, so go into the setting with specific observations and then needed input or next steps or whatever is appropriate. Prime her with examples and make it simple for a trial or two and be encouraging.

    4. periwinkle*

      She cannot become more extroverted but she can learn to be a more socially comfortable introvert. It’s a challenge, but it can be done.

      Toastmasters gets good reviews from colleagues who have joined to improve their presentation skills; I’ve noticed that their “small talk” skills have also markedly improved.

      As a shy introvert, I still struggle with things like conferences where I don’t know anyone. However, at work I’ve become very good at the chatting and speaking up because I have practiced it. Started small, developed confidence through those small efforts and successes, and now I love being an active participant in committees. I had a meeting with an established vendor earlier this week and they brought in someone who hadn’t worked with our project before. He piped up towards the end of the meeting to say that this was the first time he had talked with a client who treated his team like well-liked team members rather than for-hire outsiders.

      Me. I did that. It took practice to get to that point, but yeah, I did that.

      What might help Violet is to re-shape how she looks at her participation. I think it’s common for introverts to feel more comfortable when they’re in control and have a role to play. I started thinking of myself as a contributor to the meetings rather than an attendee. Contributor is an active role, right? I’m not there to fill a seat, I’m there because I have some knowledge to share with others and/or have a responsibility to find and bring back knowledge to my own team.

    5. ..Kat..*

      People are telling you that they believe her silence equals dislike. Please give feedback to these people that some people are just quiet.

      Also, as her manager, why not just assign her to projects?

  103. Firsttimecaller*

    I recently accepted a leadership position in another field and organization and it includes supervising one employee who will also be new to the office. This will be the first time I’m supervising an employee who isn’t a student intern. Any advice for first time managers?

  104. CTT*

    tl;dr: need advice on how to manage expectations at new job

    long version: Prior to law school, I worked as staff for a large firm in a fairly niche department. When I started, the attorneys in the group could handle the work, although I did some associate-appropriate work (with tons of supervision, obviously). By the time I left, the amount of work had increased, and it seems like it’s grown since then. I’ll be rejoining the group as an attorney next month, and I get the sense that they think that because I know the practicalities of the job from when I was staff, now that I have a law degree I’ve emerged fully-formed and ready to close deals on my own. There’s been a lot of “we’re counting down the days till you get here, can you start now,” etc. I’m hoping that this is all hyperbole and they realize that it will take me a few months to get up to speed, but just in case they don’t, how can I best manage their expectations?

  105. KX*

    There is a Giant Company of Great Repute in our city, and they open up positions for a certain job title all the time, and I have applied three times now, and not even gotten a phone call. I even have a friend on the inside (in a totally different department) sending me that Refer a Friend link.

    You can log on to the application system and see my three failed attempts that list me as “reviewed and not considered.” If I can see them, I know the internal hiring people can see them. Is three in one year the limit? How many of these have to pile up before I look pitiful and ridiculous and it counts against me more and more each time? Am I pissing people off if I keep trying because I can’t take a hint? Or will they think of me sadly, as if I were a little song bird flapping against a clean window?

    Or is this all in my head?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Whether or not they think you look pitiful seems to be a moot point. They’ve reviewed your application for the same job three times, and have decided not to consider you three times. If nothing has changed on your end, is there any reason to think something will change on their end?

      1. KX*

        I don’t know. They employ upwards of 6,000 people, and 200 to 300 job openings every day. There are scores of departments, and they are all hiring project managers separately–from marketing to manufacturing to clinical research. Is it the computer I can’t get past? Or three recruiters for three positions turning me down is a coincidence?

        I’ll probably keep throwing myself at the wall as I see things I am qualified for, but will it hurt my chances to keep trying? Is there some grace period where I have to wait for six months or a year or something? I want to know if there are real rules or guidelines about this. Or if this is really just between me and the applicant tracking system and nothing more.

        It’s not just this company. There are applicant tracking systems everywhere, and they all keep my job history, and I’m not just going to stop applying. Unless I should? And that is the Great Bummer of Our Times?

        1. WellRed*

          Are you applying for different postions or is it all the same one? Also, any chance there’s something funky going on with anything that comes through the refer a friend link?

          1. KX*

            These have been three different positions, in three departments, since April. They pop up about once a month. I don’t know if there is really an advantage to getting an internal referral (besides the bonus an employee might get if I am hired), and the delay between me seeing the job and asking my friend for the internal referral link and the getting it was stressing me out, so I am not going to use that anymore. I am just going to apply directly and soldier on!

  106. kracken*

    I really hope I’m not crazy for thinking this is crazy.

    I have been working at a new law firm for a few months and I am the legal secretary for a managing partner. He’s pretty particular about language, which I knew to expect. If he agonizes over the placement of a comma for 3 days I get it. But he has an issue with the word “plaintiff’s.” See how the apostrophe kind of blends in with the f? He’s concerned someone reading the document will miss that it’s possessive, so I have to go through all his documents and expand the spacing between the f and the apostrophe. I’ve set up Word to do this quickly, but I think it’s ridiculous.

    But maybe I’m wrong? Maybe it has happened that someone missed that this “plaintiff’s” was possessive and it messed up a case? I get a little stressed out whenever I see that word now, and I see that word a lot during the day. He’s my boss and I’ll keep doing it. It’s so readily accepted at this firm that I feel like I might be the weird one for not seeing the issue with it.

    1. CD*

      So this might be a weird thing, but kerning is a weird topic. Do you have to use a specific font for the manager’s reports? Is this for correspondence or legal documents? There are other fonts that exist that the kerning (the spacing of letters and symbols) is different than what you see in default documents.

    2. What? Like it's hard?*

      You’re not the weird one. They’re the weird ones. Lawyers are weird. Law firms are weird.

    3. Partly Cloudy*

      I agree with you that it seems crazy. To me, intentionally making it incorrect by adding the space would drive ME crazy. People should just… have reading comprehension. If they’re missing the possessive, it’s their own fault.

      Can you maybe use a different font?

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        I don’t think kracken is adding a space, just adjusting the spacing between the apostrophe and the letters.

        1. Partly Cloudy*

          Ah, gotcha. I misread the original comment. Speaking of reading comprehension! Haha.

    4. LadyByTheLake*

      Speaking as an attorney, I second your feeling that that is ridiculous. But if that’s the firm culture, whatever. There are worse things.

    5. CTT*

      This seems crazy but I think you might be onto something thinking that it messed up a case in the past; there are some super-particular judges out there and maybe one laid into him about it once and it’s made him really sensitive to it now and everyone else just rolls with it.

    6. LilySparrow*

      Legal secretary for about 15 years, several different firms.

      This is his personal quirk and has no basis in reality. But on the scale of attorney quirks, one that can be fixed with an autocorrect setting is pretty minor.

    7. Ann O.*

      I honestly do not think it’s weird, especially given how precise law is. The apostrophe really does blend in with the “f” and it is very likely that someone will miss it.

  107. Anon for this*

    Asking for a friend! What is the best way to list your withdrawal from a PhD program on a resume?

    Backstory: a friend who was set to defend in September was recently asked by her committee to withdraw from her doctoral program. This was shocking, since concerns of this magnitude hadn’t been shared with her (she was told at the outset that her topic was ambitious, and was working with a writing coach to streamline her writing style, so it wasn’t that she’d heard zero concerns, just nothing that would seem to merit this sudden decision right before her defense). She was told she would be failed if she went ahead with the defense. She’s in job searching mode now, and is wondering how to list this on her resume.

    It is also true, if unrelated, is that she has been working remotely from her program as a family member has been ill and she has been helping care for that person. So my suggestion is to list herself as in a PhD program from date to date, (withdrawn). Then in her cover letter, she could say that she withdrew for family or medical reasons. I am not sure there is a way to say “I was kicked out for concerns that were not shared with me by my committee” without that seeming a bit odd or something of a red flag.

    Any advice?

    1. Murphy*

      Ouch. I’m so sorry for your friend. I can’t even imagine. I’m not sure of a good way to explain it…covering it up might not go well. If she wants to use any references from grad school, it might come up. I assume she doesn’t want to do that, but not having a grad school reference might look bad as well. Maybe say she was having issues with her dissertation project (e.g. it was ambitious) and ultimately she left? Mentioning the family issues could help as well…but it wouldn’t explain why she didn’t go back to finish her PhD after the family issues were resolved.

      For my experience: I left a PhD program voluntarily. I got a master’s along the way, so I was able to put that as my “graduation date”. Careful reading of my resume will show that I had graduate assistantships after that date. It’s come up twice. Once, the interviewer was pretty displeased, but I could tell that she had already decided she didn’t like me before she picked up the phone. The other time, they weren’t concerned at all, and were satisfied with basically “it wasn’t for me.”

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Has she completed all of her coursework? As in, could she possibly list herself as ABD (All But Dissertation)? I’ve usually seen this in liberal arts fields, so it might not work for her field. Though I guess she can’t do that if she’s actually withdrawn, which surprises me unless there’s some kind of time constraint.

      1. Reba*

        ABD works! And it also leaves it open-ended and not negative-looking. Plenty of people are ABD for years.

        But it is probably not meaningful to people outside of academia, if that is the audience for the resume, in which case it will need to be explained, in which case, still the same problem.

          1. Undine*

            Usually you have some coursework and qualifiying exams, so that you are “Advanced to Candidacy”. After that, the dissertation is all.

          3. Dr. Vanessa Poseidon*

            Given the typical structure of US PhD programs, no. ABD signifies that you’ve done significant graduate coursework in your area of study, passed exams, and developed a dissertation proposal and gotten it approved. So you’ve done all of that, but not the dissertation.

      2. Murphy*

        When I was in school, I remember being told not to list yourself that way. But I don’t know if that’s field dependent, or if that’s changed.

    3. Reba*

      I would describe it as “PhD Coursework” or “Graduate coursework” optionally adding “(no degree)” or something. To me “withdrawn” sounds too… negative? IDK.

      Was there a Master’s degree? In that case there could be a note of “Additional coursework, no degree 2016-2018” below the Master’s line.

      When she describes what happened I think she really needs to frame it as her CHOICE–even if it was more or less involuntary. No mention of the committee, of concerns, of problematic ambition or disagreements or struggles with the topic, nada. Those will sound like excuses when what she wants is to be more forward looking. “I realized it wasn’t for me, and decided I’d rather do X instead, which the coursework has still prepared me for in XYZ ways” has direction and will to it. Even if it is “I decided to leave in order to care for my family member, and now that’s done,” that is better than “I had to” or “I couldn’t give enough time and energy to my program” or “I lost the support of my advisor.”

      And WOW, how shocking for your friend. They really did her a terrible disservice. You hear about things like this and I just feel more and more lucky for the experience I had, in which my faculty seemed like they actually, like, wanted me to succeed. I want to believe that that is more common than advisor mistreatment like this.

      1. Photographer*

        Agreed, this happened to someone I know and that’s how she listed it: PhD coursework in Subject at University of X.

      2. Dr. Vanessa Poseidon*

        Agreed, I’d advise her to just leave the fact that she was asked to withdraw out of the story and if asked specifically about it, make up another reason for leaving the program. If she’s applying to jobs outside academia, there’s no reason to use her professors as references, so it’s unlikely that something like this would be verified.

    4. Rosemary7391*

      I can’t even… that’s horrible! I’m so sorry for your friend :(

      I’m in the UK so less familiar with US PhD norms – but does she have a supervisor or advisor who could suggest something? Presumably such a person would also be a referee for her so it would be important to get their take on what is going on…

      1. Reba*

        If my advisor let me get to the point of nearly failing like this, I’d consider that relationship fairly well burned.

        But the point is well taken — she will likely need someone to speak about the years in the program, so figuring out who is still a trusted mentor would be important!

        1. Rosemary7391*

          That’s true – neither would I probably – but then I don’t understand the role of the committee? So it might not.

    5. Kate R*

      That sounds so terrible. I’m sorry for your friend. I agree with Murphy that I wouldn’t recommended claiming she withdrew due to family or medical reasons because that’s not really the truth. Even if she doesn’t list anyone from her grad program as a reference, you never know who knows who, and if she’s listing any of that work on her resume, hiring managers could end up contacting them anyway.

      I know that PhD programs tend to be really different, but personally, mine did not include much coursework, so if listing coursework is not an option, could she try listing something like:

      Graduate Research Assistant Start Year – End Year

      And then list her accomplishments/expertise/relevant experience from doing that work. And this would be listed under relevant experience rather than education.

    6. BRR*

      Wow, I’m so sorry for your friend. Her advisor failed if they let your friend get this far before saying that. It’s honestly very off to me that she was asked to withdraw instead of just postponing and revising her dissertation. I might suggest making sure the dept chair and or dean know that the advisor messed up like this (nothing will likely come of it but I would feel better).

      To answer the actual question, I think if possible I would leave it off or list it under education as graduate/doctoral course work completed in X. I think it’s ok to say she withdrew to take care of a sick family member but I don’t think I’d put that in a cover letter, I would save it for interviews. There’s obviously the chance of repercussions.

    7. Artemesia*

      If she is at the point of candidacy then her ‘terminal degree’ is PhD Candidate. This is a step — it means basically ABD. Then she just has to have a reason she chose not to continue. She does not have to say she was barred from continuing. Realizing you don’t want to devote the next 3 to 5 years of your life to a tiny arena of knowledge and that you really don’t want to be in academia is likely to sound pretty plausible to people outside academia. ‘I realized that ultimately I wanted to be involved in XYZ and not in the ivory tower and so decided not to pursue the dissertation.’

    9. Trot*

      I voluntarily withdrew from a PhD program. I’d reached candidacy, so under Education I listed it as PhD Candidate with start/end dates. Then in Work Experience I listed both ‘Doctoral Researcher’, with my writing/researching responsibilities listed there, and ‘Teaching Assistant’ with all my TAing responsibilities. (I was paid separately for each so I listed them as separate jobs.) I didn’t treat it as something I withdrew from in a negative sense; I just treated them as employment that was coming to an end. Grad school blurs the line between student and employee, so I recommend just framing it as the latter rather than a failed former.

  108. Cute Li'l UFO*

    My contract was not extended or converted from my recent contract and my boss was livid. She fought very hard for this and my role has been rewritten for a “junior” role in name and pay grade only. My boss and coworkers know that this is setting up my replacement for failure and that wonderful endless hire cycle.

    I got out of there with some great work and great references and it’s nice to have the support of nearly everyone behind me. Already had one interview this week that I feel hopeful about.

  109. roisin54*

    I would love to get some outside perspectives on something (apologies for the length.) I work at a fairly large library system in one of several reference departments; my department covers two public desks and also answers about 70% of the emails and phone calls that come in from the public. We are very short-staffed right now and frequently have to rely on assistance from people outside our department to cover all the hours on the desk and phones that we have to. We’re also basically at the bottom of the hill in terms of the crap-rolling-downhill metaphor.

    A couple weeks ago, Manager Beta, who is my department head (Gamma)’s direct supervisor, sent my department an email saying that she was taking over scheduling from our department head and her second-in-command, Delta, (which we knew was coming) and was making several drastic changes to how our schedule works (which we did not see coming at all.) The changes, should they go into effect, will (and I am not exaggerating) cause us all to reach burn-out levels very quickly. Beta asked for feedback several times in this email but those of us who did email her back got an auto-response saying she would be out of the office for two weeks. Manager Alpha, Beta’s boss and the de-facto second-in-command of the whole place, is who we all suspect was really behind these changes. He was also out of the office that week. As was Delta and our department’s union rep. None of which we think was a coincidence.

    Beta has since emailed back twice walking back a couple things (so someone has clearly been tipping her off about how mad we all are.) Alpha, meanwhile, came back from his vacation this week. Gamma met with him to share our concerns and he basically does not care. A bunch of us have already contacted the union, the union reps have met with our lawyer, and Gamma met with HR after her disastrous meeting with Alpha. Everyone’s waiting for Beta to get back on Monday (when the changes are to take effect) before they really get into it. I will not be here because I’ll be on my own vacation, but a co-worker has promised to let me know if everything goes to hell.

    So…are Alpha and Beta shady as hell or is it just me? Also, why would someone so high up on the food chain here think that they should handle the scheduling for a department that they’ve never participated in the actual work of, and thus have no idea how it actually functions? Beta’s official reason for taking over scheduling is so Gamma and Delta can focus on “exciting new initiatives,” the nature of which none of us have been informed of. We are all very perplexed and annoyed.

    1. Nicole*

      That is a really crappy way to make a decision, and I think it speaks to how much Alpha and Beta respect you and your co-workers as human beings….I don’t know if they purposefully scheduled the announcement around their vacation or if it just worked out that way (it’s pretty usual to try to get big things out before vacations) and just didn’t care about the impact their vacation would have.

      Either way, not good. That really sucks.

      1. roisin54*

        Alpha at least does not respect us as human being at all, he actually said he doesn’t care if people quit out of frustration with the new scheduling system. I think we’re all just names on a spreadsheet as far as he’s concerned. I honestly don’t know what Beta’s deal is.

    2. Annie Moose*

      Regardless of what’s going on, I bet Epsilon knows all the secrets… (sorry, obligatory RvB reference)

      Anyway, that does sound pretty shady. Especially announcing something major when everyone involved was out of the office? I can see some plausible reasons why Beta might want to take over scheduling–maybe it really is something that she doesn’t want Delta spending time on, maybe Delta is secretly leaving, whatever–but everything else around it seems strange. The lack of transparency, the fact that Beta’s making major changes that were intended to go into effect very quickly that nobody knew about, the supposed asking for feedback but not actually responding to it… I’m side-eyeing it all pretty hard.

      I’m kinda curious how it will all shake out next week–update us next Friday!

      1. roisin54*

        They do this kind of thing a lot here, making big changes without telling people and not taking any feedback on it. Management’s poor communication with the rest of the staff is basically a running joke among us peons. However, this is the first time that I’m aware of that the staff’s reaction has been so bad that the union AND HR are getting involved.

        1. Artemesia*

          The choice will be burnout or letting many queries from the public go unanswered. You have a government union job — I know what I might be doing i.e. my best but not so much that I burn out. Turnaround is long? Well that new schedule determined that.

    3. LCL*

      Ha. Management tried to impose a unilateral schedule change on you all. This is totally a negotiable item. Union contracts address wages, hours, and working conditions. Some managers think any fool can write a schedule, and they can write a better one, without knowing the labor agreements and other factors behind the current schedule. Since you are short staffed and needing help, manager said ‘if they were only more efficient they wouldn’t need help. I’ll fix it.’ The funniest part-depending on your labor agreement, people who have received a cut in hours, may be eligible for back pay.

      1. roisin54*

        I think you hit the nail on the head there. What they want to do is something they have to negotiate with the union, and they’re trying to ram it through anyway. It’s a definite change of working conditions.

        And they’re not cutting our hours or anything like that. Mostly what they want to do is have one person staffing a desk by themselves for four hours straight with no break scheduled. While answering emails and the phone at the same time (desk and phone/email work are currently separate.) Alpha apparently thinks the public desks aren’t that busy [insert hysterical laughter here] so we shouldn’t mind this idea.

  110. Nicole*

    I have a silly question about haircuts and perceptions for women in a corporate environement

    I need a haircut, and I am finding myself torn between a $20 cheap and “fine” haircut and spending real money on a nice cut and maybe highlights etc.

    I usually do not spend a ton of time on my hair- at most I’ll straighten it in the morning. It spends a lot of time in a ponytail. What I’m trying to decide is if a nice haircut with highlights or a little bit of color could make it look more polished and like I’d put more effort in than I really had? I have a new role where I’m spending a lot of time dealing with people up the chain from me, and I’ve been getting feedback from upper management that they think I have lots of potential and are keeping an eye on me. My dress is already very professional – I tend to wear dresses and blazers a lot (comfy + warm!), so I am not worried about that, but I sometimes worry that the fact that I am generally not someone who spends a lot of time on their appearance will hurt my career progression. While I couldn’t care less about the haircut from a personal perspective (and am normally very frugal), I’m wondering if it would be worth it to bite the bullet and get some color in as a replacement for spending more time on my hair on a daily basis?

    Thoughts? Other women, how much do you notice your co-workers hair? Have you noticed any difference in how you are treated based on your hair?

    1. Fishsticks*

      So I’d argue the $20 haircut might be the same as the nice haircut depending on what texture, thickness etc. your hair is. If you like the $20 haircuts and it looks nice, stick with those. I have extremely thick, coarse, wavy hair so I have to go to a more expensive place that has stylists that have experience with my hair type to make it look nice versus my partner who goes to Supercuts or cuts it herself and it looks great.

      If you like your haircut, stick with it, because a more expensive look might require more upkeep. Also if you start coloring your hair, it will add up quickly due to having to recolor it every month or few months.

      1. writelhd*

        I don’t think your cut style or highlights or even how you wear it makes a huge difference generally, but some people are probably going to notice or care more than others. And industry specific perhaps, etc. Also some people are just more judge-y of appearance than others, whether consciously or not, and I don’t think you can predict who those people are or how their judge-y will be applied to you.

        I will say if you’ve never tried the more expensive salon experience…life is short, it’s worth doing at least once to see how your hair can be really different for fun. I have long and extremely curly blonde hair and the $20 haircut was always the bane of my self-image. A salon trip to someone who was trained in curly hair was life changing, I didn’t know my hair did that! But also super pricey, so I’ve learned how to do the curly girl routine on my own and I cut it myself, and some people would probably say my hair is still too frizzy to look professional and polished for some jobs, but they can shove it. :) I did once have someone: another woman, a huge mentor to me in my specific subfield, and also with about a decade of experience on me in that field, comment that my having long curly hair made my appearance as a young woman in very male dominated settings makes me even unusual, which I thought was kind of a weird thing to say. She has really long curly hair herself, so who knows what she meant by that. And I’ve had a couple of people comment interestingly about my hair at industry networking events. Just sort of awkward things, like, “wow, you hair looks just like this other girl (of curse he said girl…take or leave from that what you will) at my office!” which makes me wonder if that’s good, or bad, or him just trying to find a banal way to strike up a conversation?

    2. Not All Who Wander*

      I was always of the “$20 haircut is fine” camp…right up until I got my first haircut at a higher-end salon and discovered that with a really good cut, I didn’t HAVE to style it or do anything much with it for it to look polished…unlike the cheap cuts that required work each morning to look nice.

      Personally, in your shoes I’d try getting a couple higher-end cuts to see (go twice because it frequently takes them more than once to get to know your hair & for you to figure out what you really want). I’d skip the highlights for now…they look great when they first go in on a lot of people, but they look awful growing out if you decide not to keep up with them.

      1. Reba*

        Seconding this!

        Also, I am strangely vain about my hair even though I rarely actually style it.

      2. Artemesia*

        This. Years ago I went to the salon featured on a high end make over show when we were in the big city it filmed in. I couldn’t afford the big name, but my very expensive cut did improve the look of my terrible fine slightly wavy hair. It really was the best haircut I ever had. I would get a great cut and see if it makes a difference. I personally don’t like highlights and would forego that to start — you can always add that in if you like the look. It is an expensive look to keep up.

      3. Long Time Fed*

        This was my experience too. I’m pretty low maintenance and have gone to the cheap places. I always thought I had hopeless, bad hair until I decided to try a regular salon. The difference is amazing and my hair looks great every day with minimal effort.

    3. CD*

      I don’t think cut or color in a professional office environment is going to be more polished or not, depending on what the cut and color is of course. I think what’s important is to look put together. I have previously worked with a woman who had long, unkept hair. It was frizzy and messy and honestly got in the way of things. That, combined with how she looked gave off an unprofessional appearance. I would say to generally be careful of putting your hair in a pony. I too love putting my hair up and most days, by the end of the day it ends up there. If I intentionally choose to do on I try to make it look more stylish. It also depends on who you are more likely to be meeting with and working around too. If you’re in front of clients and other higher up internal management a half pony or weekend hair is probably going to be a different look than they are used to. Remember, always dress for the job you want, not the job you have.

    4. Temperance*

      There’s really no right or wrong answer to this. I have wavy, difficult hair, so I can’t go to Supercuts and look okay. My straight-haired friends absolutely can.

      A good haircut also doesn’t cost significantly more than a chain salon haircut, in most places. The salon where I go charges $35+ for a women’s haircut. The chain places here start around $25. That $10/$15 difference is a huge quality difference, though.

    5. AnotherAlison*

      I went to one booth-lease guy for 10 yrs, and he was reasonable. High-end salon quality, mid-range chain price. He was technically good, but then he moved across town. I went there for a couple years after the move, but got tired of it. I’ve been bouncing around different Ulta stylists since then, but my last cut was by the $37 guy and was better than the $54 senior person. I don’t think you need a $200 haircut, but I personally can’t get away with a $20 one.
      (I am another thick, wavy haired person.) I don’t think people really notice your hair & say, but I think a good haircut subtly contributes to your whole “executive presence” in a way that those of us in $20 jeans and clearance shoes and a Target purse probably don’t appreciate.

    6. Thlayli*

      In my experience People definitely base their first impressions of you on appearance. However once they get to know you, they don’t really notice your appearance at all.

    7. LilySparrow*

      In my experience, a good-quality haircut does look better with less daily attention, and hold up better during the day, than a really cheap haircut, because there is skill and time involved. When you pay more, there’s less pressure on the stylist to get through more clients.

      But there’s a point of diminishing returns. I’ve seen a big difference between a $15-20 cut and a $50-75 cut. Not so much difference between the $75 cut and a $200 cut, except that the salon was more luxurious and the shampoo was infused with – I dunno, albino acai berries or unicorn blood or something.

    8. Jessi*

      I occasionally go to a nice place and get them to do a cut and take pictures of it freshly cut and ask the cheap place to “cut it like this”.

    9. Traveling Teacher*

      Since your feedback sounds really positive already, why rock the boat? I notice other people’s hair, but I wouldn’t ever judge them for styling/not styling. I only judge when the hair is visibly dirty day after day.

      Ponytails can be perfectly professional, especially if you wrap some hair around the elastic to hide it/if it’s nicely pulled back, etc.

      For me, I’ve started cutting my own hair because cuts (even at spendier salons!) are so hit and miss in recent years that I’d rather take my chances with my own salon-quality scissors that I bought for 15 dollars and some Youtube videos. Also, I don’t like the pressure from stylists in recent years to chop off all of my long hair just because I’m over thirty/because they think it should be donated.

      Also, I think that dyed/highlighted hair really depends on the colorist and chosen colors–it sometimes looks really amazing but sometimes looks a lot worse for being dyed, in my opinion! If you get your hair colored, it’s a good bet to go to a better salon or to ask around for a good colorist. If you’re a frugal person who would only be doing this to “get ahead” I would say to skip it. Colored hair can take a monstrous amount of upkeep and $$$; but, if you think it will make you feel confident about your other hair choices, then I say go for it.

  111. anonykins*

    I have a coworker who has worn skirts two days in a row that are short enough that you can see her black biking shorts underneath. I do not care about whether they show, but one of the skirts is too short in the back so I’m not sure whether she’s aware they’re visible. We are not particularly close. I should say nothing, correct?

    1. Anonykins*

      Addl context: we are both similar aged women and although she is technically more senior than me, we have pretty much the same functions and she is newer and still learning some of the ropes.

  112. HigherEdPerson*

    Not really a question, per say, but just a general vent. I had an open position for the Assistant Director of Teapot Events. The individual who had been the student assistant for this role expressed interest, and I knew they would be a perfect fit. I have known this person for 2 years, and I thought we had a good and open relationship (like, in terms of good communication). I jumped through many hoops to get this posted as an internal-only search, interviewed this person, offered them the position, and negotiated a full-time salary for them while they finished their degree. They were slated to start this week.
    1.5 weeks before their start date, I GET AN EMAIL basically saying “SO SORRY, but I took another job. It’s a better fit for me. Hope this doesn’t cause an inconvenience!”

    Y’all. I died. Not only did that leave me with a huge vacancy at a crucial time of Teapot event planning, which means I now have two jobs to do, but they emailed me instead of picking up the phone to call me. I was SO disappointed in them – and while I’ll let it go at some point – I’m just…UGH. Like, who is giving these people bad job advice? Why do you think it’s okay to EMAIL someone you’ve known for that long, and tell them you won’t be coming to the job you accepted (in writing, BTW), 1.5 weeks before your start date? BLAAAAHHHHH

    Now I’m ear-deep in resumes for the re-opened search, and dealing with doing this persons job while I still try to manage my own.

    August in Higher Ed sucks.

    1. Anonykins*

      That BLOWS. Much sympathy. I think, if you can do it without getting too upset (hard to do!), it would be a service to this person, who it sounds like you otherwise would have given great references to, to let them know that this was unprofessional and indicate how it will change your relationship going forward. Sadly, I could see myself using email like that as a new grad a few years ago because a lot of students these days have no phone etiquette and many have a HUGE aversion to talking on the phone at all. But this student needs to know they should have bitten the bullet and called.

      Also in higher ed. Sympathy for your August woes.

      1. HigherEdPerson*

        I actually did speak with them – eventually. And was very honest about how disappointing and unprofessional it was to do it via phone. They said they got that advice from a lot of people (email instead of call), but after hearing my response to it, they realize it would have been better to call immediately or at least reach out with a follow-up call after sending the email.

        yay August. :-(

        2. AdAgencyChick*

          Not that it helps you now, but I hope this person actually learned something and will be better at professionalism because of you.

    2. Ali G*

      Well they just lost a future reference. I’m sorry that sucks! Can you bring on a temp until you get someone up and running?

      1. HigherEdPerson*

        Considered it, for sure, but by the time I train a temp to do this very specific work, I might as well have hired a full-time person with the degree and experience.

        I’ve got some good (and some TERRIBLE!) candidates, so hopefully we can get someone in by October.

    3. Murphy*

      Oh damn. That’s really not cool. I’m sorry they did that to you, and that you have to pick up the slack now.

      How did you respond? Or did you?

      1. HigherEdPerson*

        They were a bit taken aback by that feedback, I think. I lead the convo with “I don’t begrudge you finding a position that probably pays you more, is a better fit for your degree, is more in line with what you want, etc. But what was so disappointing to me is how you went about doing it.” This person has really been the golden child for many departments b/c they are such a great worker, awesome personality, super creative, etc. I know they just got bad advice, and were too young to know better, but that doesn’t make it okay.
        We talked about intent vs. impact, and they understood that their actions have a HUGE ripple effect on me, my dept, my division, and the university as a whole. I don’t think they were looking at the bigger picture when deciding to back out 1.5 weeks before starting.
        I mean, overall, I wish them the best…but, yeah. I was *just* keeping my head above water, waiting for them to start and be awesome, and now I’m so overwhelmed that I can barely think straight.

    4. Middle School Teacher*

      Wow. Hopefully that other job is AMAZING and pays gold and clears up their skin because they just nuked their bridge with you.

    5. Hiring Mgr*

      I’m sorry you have to deal with this, but wouldn’t it have been equally as difficult for you if they had called vs emailed? I get why you’re upset and it’s certainly not professional, but in the end what can you do if they found a job that they’re more interested, better fit, etc?

      I say this as somone who has done the same, and had it done to me as well. It’s not pleasant to have to renege on an acceptance, but sometimes these things happen… I’m sure you will find someone

      1. HigherEdPerson*

        Yes, I still would have been in the same position. However, this was someone that I had worked closely with for 2 years, and we had a very good relationship. While it’s never fun to have someone back out a week-ish before starting a job, it’s more mature and professional to suck it up and make the phone call, rather than cop-out via email. What if I hadn’t checked my email all weekend? What if it got lost in the email shuffle? How does she even know that the message was received? If she wanted it secured in writing, send the email and then close with “I am available to speak anytime later today/Monday/whatever if you’d like to discuss this in more detail”…or make the call and THEN follow up in writing.

  113. Age is Nothing But A Number*

    Looking for age-sensitive advice on how to gracefully work with an older client/partner whose struggle with her workload is affecting my ability to do my job. I am in my late 20s and she is in her early 60s, and she confided in me last week about the challenges she’s facing. She is privately worried her job is in jeopardy for a combination of ageism/sexism, and she’s definitely overworked — doing too many tasks and not receiving support. I would be overworked in her role as well, although I would not face her technological struggles.

    She is very slow with technology, almost never responds to email or uses Microsoft Outlook scheduling, which my company depends on. She frames it as “can’t be bothered to check it” but in observing her quietly I think she actually struggles to process information on the screen. She will maybe answer 1 in 3 emails, often ignoring time-sensitive deadlines. She will answer phone calls but not necessarily deliver on promises made. This has repeatedly put us behind on projects. We’ve brought it up but nothing changes.

    My supervisor knows and is equally frustrated. She doesn’t work for us so there is no one to “report up” to. I don’t know how to balance tact with firmness here as I don’t want to see her fired, she has too much institutional knowledge to lose, and this organization would not replace her anytime soon. Getting her an assistant would solve a lot of problems but is obviously not something I could accomplish. We want to continue the relationship both with her and with the organization.

    What do I do?

    1. LCL*

      I have posted variants on this before for the ‘older people not using computer tech effectively’ question so if this seems repetitive, it is.
      Windows is (almost) infinitely configurable. The default font size for windows is tiny, and I can’t read it. Sit down with her and start with her Outlook screen. The default outlook has all of the columns and features visible all of the time. Help her customize it for her functionality. Delete all of the columns unnecessary for her work. Show her how to turn the reading pane on and off. Help her adjust the font sizes, colors, and choices so it is readable to her. I have no doubt she is struggling to process information on screen, if she hasn’t customized it to her processes. I won’t bore you with describing the details of how I adjusted my outlook page, just know that it is stripped, with big fat fonts, and some minor color coding. Show her how you can find all of this on google. Show her how to sort emails different ways, and how to restore. If she is using reading glasses, suggest she try a different pair.

      And now, getting up on my soapbox…the modern computer keyboard sucks so hard. Google a picture of an IBM selectric. That’s what a functional keyboard designed for typing looks like. If someone is having trouble typing on a computer, it’s because the keys are too close together. Get her an ergo keyboard, make sure it isn’t flat, and that there is space for your hands. I don’t advise the Microsoft one, that’s what IT provided me after my last better one stopped working.

    2. Temperance*

      How dependent is your job on hers? It sounds like she’s very difficult to work with, and while I don’t doubt that she’s dealing with sexism and ageism, it also sounds like she’s not competent to fulfill whatever this role is.

      How valuable is her “institutional knowledge”?

    3. BRR*

      In general I don’t like ignoring the actual problem but could you frame it as office frequently introduces new features (not entirely untrue) and offer to show her them and say how helpful you’ve found them? Those features could be some of the basics.

      Is she bad with technology or just unorganized/unreliable though?

    4. tab*

      I’ll be 63 later this year, and don’t have any problems using technology (I’m an engineer). My 87 year old father can use calendars and spreadsheets. I don’t think age is an issue. She doesn’t want to learn to use the tools. If it’s part of her job, she needs to learn to use them. She can do it, and I think you should tell her that she can.

  114. AvonLady Barksdale*

    Two months ago, I was asked to be stricter in one of my tasks, so I stepped up the strictness. Today I was asked to be looser. Same task. Sigh.

    1. Artemesia*

      LOL. My favorite memo which I saved forever was a tongue in cheek from a former boss. He asked me to get a new program accepted in a very delicate political environment and stressed it should be ‘cutting edge, show leadership of the field, be innovative’ etc. So I wrote the proposal. Then I got the memo after he had gotten feedback from the top of the organization, he wrote something like ‘it has to be cutting edge and innovative but every top organization we view ourselves in competition with must already be doing it.’ I wrote that proposal and it was accepted and the program literally saved our division.

    2. Jessi*

      this week my boss asked me to sort out the warehouse and all of the teapots in a cohesive way for us to move warehouses, toss out unused teapots and designs etc. I spent time doing this and reported back “we have double of the chocolate teapots and the strawberry teapots and we’ve not used the vanilla strainers in the 18 months I’ve been here.” the response? No keep them all just in case. What can you do?

  115. mreasy*

    I am so happy it’s Friday that I could cry. This week: our head of shipping broke their arm, I had to let someone go, we have multiple leaks in the building, I have houseguests (who are great! I just forgot they were coming)… Surely next week will be less eventful? It’s coming in one of the craziest months we’ve ever had, so I’m just biding my time ’til things slow down. halp.

  116. NACSACJACK*

    Hello – its been a while since I posted and I find I need some advice or a kick in the pants.

    We have moved to Agile Methodology and are now expected to fit our work into two week increments. My type of work doesn’t quite fit and the pieces aren’t all there when we do start the work (That’s agile), but we have some strong personalities that are banging on me and making me feel like I’m doing it all wrong. On top of that, I’m trying to grow out and gain more skills in a different area, but the team decided its not necessary. I’ve been trying to get into that area for 20 years but every time I bring it up, the responses are: “You’re a Sr Developer here, we cant justify your pay if you’re going to be a Jr Developer here”, “We don’t have enough people with your skillsets for all the work that needs to be done. We have work for the next 10-15 years.”, “We will try and get you on a project where you can gain that skill” and then the next project just needs my old skills. Others with the new skills get promoted, but not me. I asked for a skip level meeting two months ago and the big boss said, “I”m busy, I”ll get back to you.” on top of which he is having a family crisis.

    (Sidenote: A) If you trained the incoming developers in my skillset, you wouldn’t have a shortage and B) What if I don’t want to do that work for th next 10-15 years? end Sidenote)

    Am I crazy? Is this a toxic workplace? Is it just for me? I’m beginning to think I’m in the wrong career.

    1. H.C.*

      Does your employer have an annual review process that allows for self-evaluation or feedback? That’s one place where you can point out & document your desire to develop skillset B and/or you’re being overtaxed at work because you’re one of few people with skillset A. And if that needle hasn’t changed over the next year, you can and should bring that up with your supervisor in the next review.

      That being said, it might come down to you having to develop skillset B in your time outside of work. Or switch to another employer that’s more invested in their staff’s professional development.

      1. NACSACJACK*

        Thanks H.C. I like your thoughts. Both thoughts have occurred to me. (Big excuse coming up) Up until recently, developing skillset B outside of work required an outlay of money, about 2-5% of my income or 1 paycheck. If I had thought about it economically, developing the 2nd skillset could have paid off big time, but I am one of the highest paid people in the dept. (2nd excuse) Developing a skill outside the work place doesnt prove you can do in the office. What do hiring managers think when people say, “Oh yeah I worked on that outside of work.” when its the skill they need to hire for.

    2. msroboto*

      Is your skillset a newer skillset or something that would be considered “legacy”. Would a newly minted developer have any school experience in this skill? I’m guessing no they would not have even rudimentary experience in your area of expertise.
      Time to look for a job that will help YOU grow.

      1. NACSACJACK*

        Thanks MsRoboto, given today’s post (Tuesday) on “Don’t say you want to grow”, I think you’re right. Look for a company that wants me to grow beyond what I can do.

        To answer the question, yes, my skillset is in the legacy realm, but when I graduated college, I didnt have the skills I needed to do my first job. Though, in hindsight, at least I knew what a mainframe was, had used one and was familiar with green screens. So maybe I was more qualified than I thought, than new graduates today.

        Thank you.

    3. Jessi*

      Well i don’t think they will fire you for the two week thing – document why it doesn’t work like that and carry on.

      Your workplace has shown you over and over again that moving you into the different area isn’t a priority for them. So now that you know you are never going to get moved in your company what are you going to do? I would look at other companies and try and get a position doing what you want to do

  117. SQL Coder Cat*

    How do you handle working with an unreliable vendor?

    Shortest version: On Monday, they delivered code that was DOA three(!!!) times in the same day.

    Still short version: I am project manager for a specialty IT integration. The vendor is known for having the best product around- once you manage to get it working. So far they have missed every deadline (including ‘new’ deadlines they set themselves after missing the first two or three target dates for a delivery), regularly ghost on meetings, and generally have been driving me up a wall. Unfortunately, their product will solve an ongoing issue for my university and we don’t have the option of cancelling the contract and finding someone else for various reasons.

    We’re now past the planned project end date and if there are no other major mishaps, it will be two more months before we’re through. My boss and the project sponsor have both been supportive of me, but I’m increasingly frustrated by the vendor’s continued unreliability. Any suggestions?

    1. Tina*

      I feel like cancelling the contract or renegotiating here is the only option, otherwise the vendor has complete power to keep screwing up knowing that it’s a contract they can’t lose. No?

      1. SQL Coder Cat*

        Unfortunately, due to the amazing politics of public higher education in the US , that’s exactly the situation. If we cancel the contract, it would be a minimum of 3 years before we could get funding to try again with another vendor.

        1. Tina*

          OY I figured it was something like “boss won’t let us cancel” not “the government won’t let us cancel” lol. I guess you need to find someone who will intimidate the person in charge into changing things… like someone high up.

    2. BRR*

      Is there anything in there about penalties for them messing up? Can you ask for them to lower the cost or throw in something extra? If not, I would just bug the living day lights out of them.

  118. The Dread Pirate Buttercup*

    Second question for this thread: I have had a disability in the past (major depression/ PTSD). Should I self-identify in the application process? I don’t feel it’s going to be a liability; in fact, the fact that I’ve gone through it and found my way out is a strength (plus, I kept doing my job throughout, and since one of my “triggers” seems to be having things that feel like a corpse fall on top of me, I think it speaks to my dedication, if nothing else). I don’t want to lie, but I don’t want to identify out of a position I’d be great for, or worse, take a slot in a diversity-minded company from someone whose disability is active (although I would really prefer to work at a diversity-minded company). Any insight from the hiring trenches?

    1. Ali G*

      All the applications I have filled out have an option of “I do not wish to answer” which would probably be your best bet. That way they can’t claim you lied if you check “no” and then need accommodations later if you have a flare up, and you don’t have to worry about unintended bias if you check “yes.”

    3. Penguin*

      My experience/understanding (which is likely niche and/or may be incorrect) is that (non-governmental) organizations that ask for disability status do so only for demographic purposes and that the information is anonymized and separated from the personally-identifiable information in your application.

      If you trust that explanation to apply to your circumstances and/or don’t fear discrimination, I don’t think there’s any reason not to include the info.

  119. Disposable Name*

    I frequently change my username on her (mostly out of paranoia that someone from my work will find me on here, lol), and a few weeks ago I posted about a new coworker “Becky” and how my boss seemed to dote on her when she completes very basic tasks (i.e. making a spreadsheet with fancy features, a well designed power point, etc). I don’t remember the username I used, so I’m using this throwaway today.

    A few people commented that my boss may be overly impressed by flashy things, which I thought might be true. However, I made a flyer for a recent event I hosted and I decided to see if taking extra time to make it more visually appealing would get the same reaction. My boss took one look at it, said “this is a nice flyer,” and then that was it. No accolades in a staff meeting or bringing it up at a happy hour like he typically does for Becky. Now it could be that the flyer actually was terrible (I’m not a designer), but there have also been some other things that have come up that make it seem like my boss is just playing favorites.

    The primary thing I’ve noticed is that my boss is still very hands on with Becky’s work despite her being here for several months now. Becky is not new to the working world. She came to this position with close to a decade of experience. Maybe I don’t know what training/orientation should look like, but in all of my previous positions I was close to completely autonomous by this point. He checks up on her multiple times a day, almost everyday. Yesterday I think he visited at least 8 times. If Becky has questions, he will sit down in her office and spend 20-30 minutes walking her through processes that I know she has been trained on already. He does not do this for the rest of us.

    The other thing (which is even weirder in my opinion) is that Becky recently went through a significant life event (the kind where there is a celebration(s) that family, friends, etc are invited to). Becky invited all of us to attend the celebration. Several of us had to decline due to already having plans, but my boss attended. He has since made snarky comments about how some of us didn’t attend Becky’s event. I think he thinks it’s coming across like a joke, but it’s started to become really annoying.

    I have another coworker who has noticed all of this as well, but is reluctant to say something to my boss. I’m also not sure if it’s a good idea to bring up with my boss that it’s obvious that he treats her differently than the rest of us. My boss will frequently turn the times that we point these types of things out into jokes that are used against us
    that aren’t really funny (kind of like what he’s already doing with those of us who couldn’t go to Becky’s celebration). I’m thinking it’s best to let it go, but it’s making an already toxic culture more toxic knowing that my boss does not view us equally.

    1. The Dread Pirate Buttercup*

      It could be that he thinks Becky is the sort that thrives on positive reinforcement, and you don’t necessarily want that. (Some people find it embarrassing, etc.) Is there some way to neutrally ask about what the boss is hoping to accomplish with uneven feedback? If not, maybe say something like, “Hey, I really appreciated that you recognized my hard work on that flyer!” I mean, if you want recognition from him, maybe recognizing wanted behavior from him is not a bad way to go.

      1. Disposable Name*

        I normally wouldn’t want that kind of feedback, which is part of why I find all of this weird. I kind of treated the flyer as a test of the “he just likes flashy things” theory. The funny thing is that my other coworker (the one who is reluctant to approach our boss about any of this) IS the type of thrives on positive reinforcement. And my boss is not like this with him at all. This seems to be unique to Becky.

        1. The Dread Pirate Buttercup*

          I note that many people are seeing this as a “crush.” Whether or not that’s a fair criticism (I don’t know your boss), it may be a favor to him to diplomatically bring up the optics of his uneven-handed feedback, depending, of course, on your relationship.

    2. Ali G*

      Ick.
      It sounds like your boss is a little too interested in Becky.
      How does she respond to his lavish praise? Does she look/act embarrassed or does she revel in it?
      Either way it sounds pretty inappropriate.

      1. Disposable Name*

        I honestly can’t tell. She’s never said anything. She has one of those “generally pleasant” personalities that is really hard to read how she actually feels about things (or if she’s just truly always nice and happy). I’ve thought about trying to find a way to subtly bring it up in conversation with Becky to see if she would say something, but my other coworker thinks it’s a bad idea. The more I think about it, the more I also just want to keep my head down for the sake of my reference and get out of here.

        1. ronda*

          This is reminding me of the movie 9 to 5. Becky = to dolly parton’s character.

          It is possible that does not realize what everyone else is thinking about this and maybe she is uncomfortable with it, but does not have a way to say it.

          I don’t know what to say but maybe something to the tune of……
          Becky, I have noticed boss seems to take a lot more interest in you personally than other employees, so I just want to check in with you and see how you feel about this.
          I want to make sure that you know if you are uncomfortable with this, these methods to stop / report harrassment.

          But this is not your problem to fix, so you can also stay out of it (that would be what I would do)

      2. Clare*

        This was my first thought too. Boss sounds like he is veering into inappropriate territory.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Yeah, that sounds like a situation at my previous office where one of the (male) managers was very invested in our Becky (who was relatively new, female, bubbly personality), and clearly did not show other equally new-ish employees (who happened to be male) the same level of interest. Blech indeed.

        1. Disposable Name*

          Did you bring it up with the manager (or someone else in the office) or let it go? I’m just curious what the outcome was because it sounds very similar.

          1. The New Wanderer*

            I did not bring it up before I left. The interested mgr was two levels up and our direct manager was new and not someone I trusted enough to talk to about it. Also there were some confounding issues that made it less clear cut at the time, so I wasn’t confident it would sound like an objective observation. Mostly my interpretation of the situation is based in hindsight. In any case, Becky left two months after I did so it was kind of a moot point.

  120. Jane*

    Curious to know others thoughts on this.

    The President of my company works down the hall from me. She is out of town and had some VIP event tickets that she told her assistant to give away. The assistant e-mailed a note to everyone on the floor saying “Hey, these tickets are available for this event. She can’t use them. Whoever wants them, come on down. First person here gets them.” I was the lucky person. I went to the event last night with a friend. It was fantastic and I had a great time.

    Should I give a thank you note to the President? Or just see her in passing and let her know that I was able to use the tickets and really enjoyed the experience. I mean, they weren’t given to ME personally but it was really nice that they were offered to everyone.

    1. Fishsticks*

      Maybe email the assistant and ask them to pass along your thanks to the President as you enjoyed the event a ton? I’m not sure lol

    3. The Dread Pirate Buttercup*

      Always thank people! My thinking is a quick note is less intrusive on her time than stopping her in the hall, and you’re thanking her on behalf of everyone that had the chance to try for these tickets, as well.

    4. Artemesia*

      Absolutely send an email or note that says you were the lucky person to get the tickets and how much you appreciated being able to attend. Mention this to the assistant i.e. ‘I loved the event and was grateful to get the tickets’, but thanks go to the boss. This is one where I think there is no question about the correct thing to do. I don’t see any downside for a quick thanks (if you run into the CEO often, it could be oral) and a possible downside for neglecting this basic civility.

  121. Pantone*

    Mangement-type question. How do you know the difference between someone doing something correctly—just not how you would have done it vs. someone doing something incorrectly so you need them to make changes?

    My situation, I’m a designer with a part-time report and I struggle separating things that aren’t my design preference/aesthetic vs things that are not effective design and need to be polished a bit more.

    1. Kendra*

      You probably already know this, but I feel like looking at it from the angle “Is this design making things easier for the user or not?” might help a bit to have a more objective look at it.

      1. Pantone*

        I do need to approach it more from that specific angle. I think I’m getting a bit caught up in my head because aspects of design can be subjective…so framing in terms of efficacy of communication may help distill what I’m really looking at.

    2. LilySparrow*

      Well, there is the perspective of “does it meet the purpose” and user experience as Kendra pointed out. And that’s useful.

      But there’s also the value of your experience and judgment. I don’t see why you need to erase your aesthetic preference, unless it’s holding up the workflow unnecessarily. Your design preference is part of your job.

      If you are in a position to supervise this person’s work, it’s because the firm respects your judgment and your taste, in order to keep the work in alignment with the overall vision and branding. There needs to be consistency of tone.

    3. raktajino*

      I used to do a lot of editing at my job and goodness, I fell into that a lot. If your company or even your field has a shortlist of best practices, use that as your guide. For instance, I dislike “data” used singularly but I’m not going to die on that hill because our company’s preferred manual of style and dictionary allow for both usages, and our internal style guide is mum. A lot of punctuation is a matter of preference unless the meaning is significantly ambiguous. Of course, since manuals of style are by definition nitpicky, you still have to decide when to pick your battles. But they’re often a good source for “not my preference” vs “not acceptable.”

      I also turn the writing over in my head, trying to empathize with the writer and appreciate why they chose to write something that way. I can imagine that certain things are glaringly terrible to someone with design training but that are totally fun/fine to a newbie. Try to determine why they made that choice. Did they just want something colorful? Did they simply not realize the fonts were different? What is an intentional choice that I should try to honor and what is just a best-guess mistake that deserves to be fixed? In editing, I learned to walk the fine line between wasting all my time rewriting something and simply changing the one sentence that bugged me. The first is a waste of time, the second honors the work of the person who did it originally.

      I love that you’re asking this question. It’s so important when collaborating, and so tricky to learn.

    4. Sunshine on a Cloudy Day*

      Don’t have much advice here, just commending you on tackling this issue. It’s the one thing that really makes me lose respect for my manager – when it’s obvious that they can’t distinguish btwn personal preference and actual issue. It makes me think that they don’t actually understand the core of the subject and are rather just working from rote memory.

      Granted – I think this is a bit trickier/”greyer” when it comes to creative work. I think being very clear with yourself why, exactly, you’re requesting the change is a good start. Like before saying something get clear on what would be the problem if the work went out as is.

      That all said, I do think it’s ok to require your report to do certain things as per your personal preference – just be upfront about that fact (and make sure it’s something that does actually effect you). If your report is giving you a spreadsheet formatted horizontally, and you find vertically formatted spreadsheets easier to read, don’t tell them they’re doing their spreadsheets wrong, say “hey, I find vertical spreadsheets easier to read. Can you format it vertically instead?”

      Might have a bit of baggage surrounding this :-/ but really, I think the fact that it’s on your radar and you’re proactively trying to address it means you’re self-aware enough to do a pretty good job at this.

    5. JessicaTate*

      I don’t know if this would work in design, but a boss once gave me her method when it came to reviewing documents from her team — set a stopwatch/timer. Decide how much time you want to spend reviewing the document, and the time pressure helped her discern whether an issue was just something she’d say differently or whether it was incorrect or hampering understanding by a reader.

      No idea if time pressure would help with commenting on graphic design though. But thought I’d share the idea in case.

    6. ronda*

      when i was reviewing training documents my trainers wrote, I would discuss the things that were bothering me about it with them and see if we could come to agreement. These were documents they were going to be presenting to end-users in classes, so I really wanted them to be comfortable with them.
      My biggest concern was overall structure of the training info presented (redundancy really kind of bothered me), were the statements true and clear, were they easy to understand. Then there was noticing typos and formatting cause that is easier for a new reader to see.
      In lots of areas there is a style guide in that you want product to have the same look, so make sure they have any of that info needed (in accounting it was things like how numbers where formatted, what font to use, what things to bold and italize, etc.)

      But discussing it so if they feel something is an important design feature they have a way to say that and maybe change your mind about it.

    7. Pantone*

      Thank you all for the thoughtful feedback! I appreciate it more than I can say. We do have branding and style guides to follow, so those help.

      I like the timer idea a lot, that will help me stop playing the designer game of “what if I move this here…” This has also made me realize I need to stop looking at the source files unless I have to take over the project due to constraints based on time and staffing. I’m realizing when I mark up a paper proof, it’s much faster and to the point and feels a lot less based on personal preference. When I get into the source files I’m realizing I start redesigning which negates the whole point of having someone help with my workload.

      I will also focus more on explaining why when it comes to things that may seem idiosyncratic. I have a specific way I like my files set up to send to production and I think training them on that will make more sense if I explain it can cause less confusion when sent to a printer and that it looks more professional to our vendors.

  122. MissGirl*

    What small adjustments in your behavior at work have you made as a result of reading this blog?

    For instance I worked at a small company for ten years where we didn’t have any LGBTQ coworkers. I was in the habit of assuming straight relationships.

    I started at my large corporation about the time I began reading this blog. When I met people at my new company, I almost asked about someone’s wife when I saw a wedding ring on a man. Because of this blog, I tried to keep it gender neutral.

    Turns out two of the people I report to are gay, and I was glad to not have made any assumptions. But even if they weren’t, waiting to learn more before assuming is a good lesson.

    I also don’t microwave fish even though I love salmon.

    1. Kendra*

      I try to default to female pronouns whenever possible like Alison does now!

      This might not count as a small change, but I’m working on an undergraduate degree and this blog has helped me not be as worried about graduating and entering the actual adult world.

    2. Middle School Teacher*

      I’ve been more assertive. I push back more against unreasonable behaviour, especially because I work in a place where “we’ve always done this” is central office’s motto.

    4. ..Kat..*

      I have struggled with how to say things in a professional manner that will get me the results that I want. Alison’s scripts are very helpful for me.

      Also, much toxicity in previous jobs, so this blog helps me sift the normal from the abnormal.

  123. strawberries and raspberries*

    So I’ve spoken before about my work environment at my current site and how I’ve been trying to move on. As it happened, I was approached a few weeks ago about a different (director-level) position at a different site within my agency, which I interviewed for, and which I am completely qualified for, and which everyone at the director and beyond level is extremely excited for me to take, and it was offered to me officially yesterday. We announced it to the team today. Earlier this week, unbeknownst to my director, this ongoing conflict with another manager had come to a head (I made a mistake which I owned up to, but I was certainly not the only one at fault), and although he and I seemed to resolve it and he said congratulations to me for the new role, he made a point of going to my director in front of me and stage-whispering, “Hey, can I talk to you privately when you get a chance?” which makes me think he’s going to try and torpedo the promotion for me. I don’t think he actually will succeed, because my director knows what kind of person I am and what I’m capable of, but now I’m steeling myself for a discussion with my director regarding “concerns” about my ability to excel in the role because of all this petty nonsense I’ve had to deal with for months.

    Meanwhile- I applied in mid-July to a position that I heard about through a colleague at a different agency, and only today I got a call from someone there to discuss setting up an interview. I’ll have to call him back regardless, but would it be prudent to set up an interview with the other agency anyway just as a contingency plan in case something somehow goes wrong with this promotion? I don’t want to waste his time, but I also want to be prepared in case I’ll be put in an extraordinarily uncomfortable position here. Thanks in advance! (trying not to freak out)

    1. MissGirl*

      Go on the interview. It’s not a commitment and you’re not 100% sure you wouldn’t take it. Congrats on the promotion.

  124. LibraryBug*

    Kind of a low-stakes question for today, but how do you explain doctor visits to your boss?

    My boss is pretty personally distant (never shares anything about herself, even if you ask about her weekend or something) which is fine. We don’t have to be friends, but she asked me how my doctor’s appointment went this week. I had no idea how to answer. After my initial “Uhh…” she said “Not good?” I said “Well…not ‘bad’ but not great. It is what it is for right now.” She doesn’t know why I’m going to the doctor more often recently but the appointments are covered with sick time and my absences aren’t affecting others. I specifically schedule them in the least intrusive way possible. It is for diagnostics and management of a chronic condition, but I don’t particularly feel like sharing that with her.

    I’m sure I’m overthinking it, but is there a way I could have responded better? Do I need to fill her in?

    2. HannahS*

      I’d treat it as the same as “how was your day?” It was “fine” until she needs to know that you’ll be absent for one reason or another. Unless you want to give more details right now, of course.

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      I don’t even say “doctor’s appointment” anymore. I simply say “medical appointment” when requesting time off. It seems to have helped quell questions.

    4. LilySparrow*

      It sounds to me like she was showing you some personal concern/empathy rather than prying for details.

      You certainly don’t need to fill her in on everything, but you could either say, “fine,” or some version if what you did say – “holding steady” or “about like I expected,” or “seems to be on track.”

      I had a rather distant boss who was also a good and caring boss. If I took off for a medical appointment, he’d say, “everything okay?” And I’d answer, “routine maintenance.”

  125. Vacation Negotiation*

    How does negotiating for vacation time differ from negotiating salary? I’ve been successful in negotiating salary in the past and am now at a point where time is more important to me than money. I’d think the principals should be the same but something about asking to be paid for not working as opposed to be paid more for working feels different. Ideally I’d like to negotiate more time with my current company but this is something I’d be willing to leave over. Thoughts/advice?

    1. J.B.*

      My husband has never been able to negotiate vacation. It may depend how high on the totem pole you are. Another option would be to see if you and your boss can work something out – working from home at slow times, when (s)he knows you’re available but not focused completely on work.

      However, since it is a big deal to you you could always say – I want x (if standard is 3 weeks, ask for 4) and see what they say.

    2. nd*

      I am in California and I do not know anyone who has ever successfully negotiated vacation time. And here is why: California law requires payout of any accrued vacation when employment ends. This could result in a very large vacation payout if an employee who negotiated for more leaves the company before using it.

  126. TheWonderGinger*

    Good News on the Northern Front:

    I am now in the third round of interviews ( phone, in person, job shadow) for TWO separate positions within the local bigger name healthcare systems. Same job description, two different departments. I would be happy in either department and both are quite the pay bump from my current corporate h-e-double hockey sticks position. One department has been moving through the process faster than the other on the 6th week for one and the 2nd for the other, so hoping to have some good news very soon!

    On a related note, I had my mid year review with my current job. Went as well as I expected (need to shape up or annual review will not be great but it’s not anything I didn’t see coming, I was ready to leave this position 8 months ago). I did have a good chat with my supervisor and she’s excited for me for the opportunities I have coming up.

    I am very thankful I have above average immediate up-line team, where I am able to candidly discuss my concerns and reason for wanting to leave. I have no qualms with my supervisors or manager, and I make sure to let them know how much I appreciate their leadership and guidance. My issues are with the powers that be above them.

  127. Computer says no*

    My job role has been reduced and im no longer allowed to do what i have been trained to do. I am saving up to move and find a new line of work.

  128. Cruciatus*

    Just need to vent. Anyone else have that one coworker you can’t stand? You can’t even really put your finger on your reaction but you just dislike them? And it all sounds so lame as I have it typed out. Like “what’s so bad about that?” Our supervisor was out this week and I had to deal with the new guy alone (note, I’m not a supervisor. I just train him in some things I do so that if I’m hit by a bus life can continue reasonably well in the library). He’s been working here for over a month now I think. Fortunately just part-time. He hasn’t done anything so truly God awful but I just hate the guy (and normally I am chill. But my spidey senses are picking up something with him). I didn’t want to hire him because I got “the vibe” in the interview but he was the only person who had any sort of skills required and it’s part-time library work so what could go wrong? In the interview I could sense he thought this job was more than it was. And he kept talking about his tech skills. We don’t need tech skills (we have IT for that) We need to know if you can use Word and other computer programs.

    I feel stupid even writing out the stuff that’s happened because it feels so inconsequential. How can I already be at BEC mode with him? He calls me “boss”. This week it was “boss lady” and I just about blew a gasket (managed to do it not at him, I saved it for ranting later. I was going to tell him to stop calling me boss but then he said “boss lady” and all thoughts flew from my mind in the moment). He is awful to watch use a computer. I’m more frustrated watching him than my mother. I figured someone with all these “tech skills” he has could type and use shortcuts and understand opening more than 2 tabs in a browser instead of going back and forth from one browswer to another browser (I know this is a bit stereotypical, but this is not an old man–maybe late 40s). He hasn’t been trained in one task, though he gets the requests like I do in email and I told him we would work on it soon. So after everyone has left (he works evening hours) he decides to do the request with no training. Then the next day asks “if he made a boo boo?” and I had to answer, “Well, yes. We don’t do those that way because there is a procedure to follow to ensure(insure?) X, Y, and Z. He said “Figures”. No apology of any kind. And the thing he did was awful. JUST AWFUL. It was just making scans of pages from a book. You see a good page, then you see a pages of black, black, black, black, then more good pages then black, black, black. How could you send that out to the requester and think it was good? Gah! He’s always threatening (to me it’s threatening) to “find something to do.” After the scans I (truly, as politely as I could) said to just stick with the things you’ve been trained in so far. He actually had a look of surprise on his face. I think he thinks he’s showing “gumption”. He has zero library experience but has started telling me what the library should do about things to improve relationships with students (who are on break at the moment) or other things that apparently he already knows needs to be improved. He has listed his job on Facebook as “Assistant Librarian.” Just…no. I’m also not a librarian. He disregards my requests after telling me “however you want me to do it is how I’ll do it.” He’s done that a few times. OK, then go do all the book requests all at once (meaning, collect the books all at once) but instead he did them all separately which means he saw the request, went into the stacks to find the book, processed request then read next request, went into stacks to find the book, processed request then saw next request….and so on. So he made 4 separate trips into the stacks when he could have just done it once (as I requested). No reason to not have listened to me (and the irony is, if he had just done it my way I would have had time to train him in the scanning that he ended up doing so awfully. But he ran out of time since I had to leave.) He has shown a complete lack of efficiency in other areas. I have never seen anything like it.

    There are other things, just little, but every fiber of my being is saying he’s a bad fit for our library. And I don’t get that a lot so it sucks to not be in any position to do anything about it. Once we change to our academic schedule I’ll only have to see him for 2 hours once a week. It can’t come fast enough. Thanks for the vent…

    1. Cruciatus*

      Annnnd you ever write things out and realize how long they really were? Jeez. Sorry for the novel. Guess I had a lot to get off my chest this week!

    3. JeanB in NC*

      “do all the book requests all at once (meaning, collect the books all at once) but instead he did them all separately which means he saw the request, went into the stacks to find the book, processed request then read next request, went into stacks to find the book, processed request then saw next request….and so on. So he made 4 separate trips into the stacks when he could have just done it once (as I requested).”

      This alone would be a deal-breaker for me. He sounds terrible – I hope you can either get rid of him or he quits soon.

      1. Artemesia*

        That is just stupid but the deal breaker for me is people who can’t see that bad copies can’t be used so you had me at ‘scanning black pages.’ I had a grad student once who was to prepare readings for a meeting and cut off three quarters of an inch on each page. I sent him back to redo it and he whined to my boss that it was ridiculous he had to do ‘all this over again, because Artemesia is so demanding’. My boss took one look at the material and said ‘in what world would this be appropriate to give to people to read?’ So yeah boss — but the definition of time to fire is ‘can’t xerox (or scan) and when screws it up doesn’t realize he needs to fix it.’

  129. swingbattabatta*

    I just found out that my small company may be being bought out by a very large company, and that one of the three owners is strong-arming the deal through over everyone’s objections. Morale is low, people are incredibly upset, and the communication has been seriously lacking. They were supposed to decide today, and we just found out that they are pushing the decision another couple of months, so this is going to keep hanging over our heads.

    I am just so frustrated. The large company environment is not what I (or most of the employees) signed up for when we came on board, and the lack of communication is so disrespectful and self-interested. My husband and I are trying to make some pretty major life decisions in the next couple of months, and now I have to deal with the POSSIBILITY of a changing employer, salary, benefits, etc on top of it??

    1. Thlayli*

      Sounds like the owner needs to sell for some reason. It’s not personal, it’s business. She’s not sitting there going “heehee how can I make my employees lives miserable?” Companies get sold. That’s life.

    2. Artemesia*

      I found out my career was toast on the front page of the morning paper when I was 7 mos pregnant and had heard not even rumors of a major merger (in which many departments including mine would be cut.).

  130. Anxious Cat*

    In desperate need of some job search motivation….

    I’m trying to leave my current underpaid dysfunctional job, and I’ve been job hunting for two months now. I was a finalist for three different jobs I applied to, which gives me confidence that I certainly have the qualifications, but was rejected for two jobs. For the third job, I had actually turned down the final interview because I had realized it wasn’t a good fit (and had actually burned a bridge with the company in the process…)

    So, now I am back at square one, looking for job postings and applying. It’s really hard to keep myself motivated after going through all those rounds of interviews and getting myself all excited. And I know hindsight is 20/20, but I feel silly for turning down the final interview for that third job. I should have at least explored that option a little more. Sigh.

  131. inlovewithwords*

    Hi, so I have what may sound like a really naive question but I’d like perspective.

    I’ve been sick most of my adult life and have only just gotten started on, like, the adulting-jobbing-thing. Result being that I don’t have a degree or much job history–some solid volunteering on the resume, though, and I recently started working with a temp agency so I’ve got recent work and when I get back from travel will probably have more. I’m hoping to start poking around for entry-level administrative or similar type jobs once I’m not, like, CONSTANTLY TRAVELING and do also have two star-shot-level positions I’m gonna apply for because they sound awesome even if I don’t expect to get it. It’ll be slow going, but I think I’ll be okay eventually. I just need time and to build up a reputation, I guess.

    My question: Some of my friends have suggested getting a LinkedIn account. I’m not sure I see the point, as I have almost nothing to actually put on there. My friends have suggested that the whole professional-networking-thing I’d get out of it (and they’re all in tech so like tons of good connections actually) would be super helpful looking for entry-level stuff, and that it might help lead recruiters to me to have a profile there which could also help. Should I do this? And if I do, then like, how do I handle that considering I have very little to fill it out with? I feel it’d be weird and awful and possibly damaging to have just, like, this profile going ‘hi I exist but actually I have almost nothing to say’

    1. Reba*

      Even if the profile is super minimal (lord knows mine is) it can be a way for people to get in touch with you, if nothing else. I’d say do it.

    2. Havarti*

      I’m an admin. I got rid of my LinkedIn account because, well… I’m an admin. All I would get from them were emails with “Do you want to be an admin in Chicago for $12/hr? Apply today!” No, no, I do not want to be an admin in Chicago for $12/hr. I suspect it’s more useful for those in a specific field, like your tech friends.

      1. inlovewithwords*

        I mean, I do want to move tech-wards at some point? But at the moment I haven’t had long-term professional work, so entry-level wages are kind of where I will be for a while.

        My thing is that right now I have no professional network built from experience, so I am wondering if it is worth it at the start.

        1. Thlayli*

          Just FYI If you want to move into tech you probably won’t be able to start as an admin and move into tech. You will have to do some sort of training. If you can afford to, just do the training now. I doubt youl be able to save up enough to pay for a degree while working as an admin anyway, so I’m assuming you have some other plan for transitioning into tech, like student loans. Just apply for them now.

    3. Miami101*

      A tip – not sure if you speak this way but try to not use the word “like” in speech or in writing. It’s very unprofessional and people notice it. Once you become aware of how many times you use it in speech/writing, you’re able to slowly remove it from your vocabulary.

    4. Penguin*

      It varies a lot by field. I have generally worked in scientific fields, and most everyone has LinkedIn profiles. On the other hand, I know several authors and evidently LinkedIn is so little used in their fields that it’s laughable. Maybe try looking up people who are in or adjacent to your field(s) of interest and see if you can tell what the norm is?

    5. ronda*

      i find linked in good for keeping a way to contact people I have worked with. (even when not looking for a job) and even find some people from the old jobs before linked in existed.

      So at your temp job, send connection invites to the people you work with. Later, if something comes up at a company you might be interested in, you can see if these people know anybody there and if you had a good working relationship with them, they may introduce you to somebody at the company you are interested in.
      You can get some intellegence on the company you are interested in applying to from this introduction, or if you are really lucky it might be someone close to the hiring for the position you are interested in.

      Lots of recruiters use Linked in to try to find candidates, so that is most of the contacts I get, but most of them are not something I am interested in, so I ignore, but once in a while something interesting does come up.

      Lots of profiles just list Company and Title. If you are looking for a specific type of job, add some details about things you have done that are related to that, and perhaps recruiters will contact you.

  132. Summer Peach*

    I’ve been waiting ALL WEEK for this because I wanna hear from the commentariat if this is as wild as I think it is.

    Friend of mine was looking into a job recently where they advertised a regular hourly rate, but then told her in the interview that you only make that for the hours you’re doing the most hands-on work. At all other times (all meetings, admin time, getting assignments from management, traveling to client sites from their office during your scheduled work day, anything they can twist into calling training time including when they check in on how your hands-on work is doing) they pay federal minimum wage. Federal min is the legal min here.

    This isn’t a job where there’s some dramatic distinction between billable and non-billable hours, either, and it’s an entry level thing.

    This is wild, right? I know plenty of positions out there where your total compensation is related to the number of revenue-generating hours you have, but not like THIS. Is this a more common niche thing than I realize, or is this place wacky? The talk about them online does say that they are rock bottom pay compared to similar companies in my city, fwiw.

      1. Summer Peach*

        You wanna know the worst thing? They kept up with the higher hourly rate during the phone screen and didn’t admit the drop to minimum until she went for an in-person interview. Shady as hell.

    4. Anxious Cat*

      noooooooo don’t do it!! That company is definitely trying to be as stingy as possible. This is not normal!

      1. Summer Peach*

        Nope, not at all. I would find it less weird (though still undesirable) if it was since you get lame arrangements like this in sales sometimes.

    6. JennyFair*

      There are offices in my company that do this. I think it says a lot about how they value their employees. My boss put his foot down on travel time so that our technicians get paid full rate for that, and he tries to make up for the non-billable time issue in other ways, but it sucks all around. The real stunner was when the HR person came from an office that followed the policy to the letter and was like ‘wow, your employees are so much happier here.’ Like…yeah, people get that way when you pay them.

  133. T3k*

    Just updating. Going on 4.5 months unemployed, have had 6 interviews in that time, one that was yesterday. Unfortunately I don’t think I stood out very strongly in that so I’m expecting to get a rejection email next week once they finish screenings with the rest.

    At this point I’m looking at jobs with the local Amazon warehouse, but they’re all part time (24 hours or so a week) and the shifts aren’t doable (I live with others so coming home at 4-5am isn’t practical). Not to mention the pay is so sad, it even if I didn’t have student loans, car payments, etc. I still wouldn’t be able to cover all my bills with it.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      the shifts aren’t doable (I live with others so coming home at 4-5am isn’t practical)

      I don’t understand this part. Are you saying you can’t come home at 4-5 am because you’d be waking other people up?

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          Okay, you’re going WAY overboard to accommodate them. First, unless they sleep on the floor in front of the door, it’s likely you can get home without waking them. And second, if you need a job, you need a job. Someone expecting you not to take one because it might briefly disturb their own sleep is being completely unreasonable.

          1. WellRed*

            Respectfully disagree. It’s not unreasonable to seek roommates with somewhat similar schedules/lifestyles what have you. I don’t care if you bartend, but if you have a closing shift, and then get home at 2am and have dinner and unwind you are going to wake me up and then I will not get back to sleep for hours (yes, this is my issue, but that’s why I screen). Then, when you are sleeping during the day, I worry that my washing my dishes will wake you. It’s not really different from wanting roommates that also have same ideas towards cleaning, etc.

            1. T3k*

              This. My roommate unfortunately doesn’t sleep well as it is and has told me there’s been several times where I woke them up by accident (like going to the bathroom) and then it takes an hour if not more for them to fall back to sleep. Combined with the fact that we have an alarm near the bedrooms that constantly beeps when the front door is open (until the security code is punched in to turn it off) and yeah, they’ll definitely be woken up by me returning early in the morning everyday.

              1. Jessi*

                If someone is such a light sleeper than going to the bathroom wakes them then they either need to use ear plugs, a white noise machine, both or not have roommates. Part of having roommates is that sometimes they will come home late!

            2. Rusty Shackelford*

              Yes, but this isn’t someone who could have any job they want, or even someone who’s deciding whether or not to go to a bar and come home in the wee hours. This is someone who’s been unemployed for 4.5 months. There’s consideration for your roommates, and then there’s unnecessary sacrifice, and I think this crosses that line.

            3. Rusty Shackelford*

              (sorry if this posts twice; the site keeps telling me I already posted it, but I didn’t)

              Yes, but this isn’t someone who could have any job they want, or even someone who’s deciding whether or not to go to a bar and come home in the wee hours. This is someone who’s been unemployed for 4.5 months. There’s consideration for your roommates, and then there’s unnecessary sacrifice, and I think this crosses that line.

      2. Thlayli*

        Rusty is right. Not taking a job because it doesn’t suit your roommate is insane. She doesn’t want to be woken by people coming and going from their actual job? Tell her to get a new flat. It would be different if you were going out clubbing till 4am and having loud parties with guys you brought home afterwards, but to actually expect you to remain unemployed and turn down a job because they don’t want to have to listen to you opening the door? That’s nuts.

  134. Confidence Conundrum*

    My partner has been job hunting for several months and it’s not going well. Using many tips from your site he’s revamped his resume and cover letters which has resulted in quite a lot of interviews but no offers. Really his issue is confidence. He doesn’t interview well because he has no confidence and he has no confidence because he doesn’t do well in interviews. It’s a vicious circle that I don’t seem to be able to help him break. Does anyone have any advice or resources to recommend?

    1. Just Me*

      When my partner was job searching and not so confident (being laid off will do that to a person) I would practice interview with him a lot and give him really positive feedback. I kept it honest but phrasing it as “that is exactly what they want to hear” and focused questions on his abilities where he would shine. It helped him feel more confident and he did land a job at a company he loves.

    3. Penguin*

      As someone with lifelong self-confidence struggles, I have found it helpful during job searching to focus on what I know, for an absolute fact, I can do well and/or others value me for being able to do. A lot of the time, this means thinking back to previous jobs and making lists of qualities and skills I demonstrated or was commended on.

      My self-confidence issues are often driven by uncertainty, so if I can remind myself 1) that there ARE some things of which I am certain and 2) of what is certain (i.e. “yes,I can definitely do that, here’s when/how I did it before”) and it helps me feel more confident and twist that cycle around in a positive direction.

    4. Mariella*

      I am extremely anxious, and a job interview is so so nerve wracking to me i usually just sit there nervous with nothing to say.

      However, i am confident in my work, and my ability, and have been going in to the interviews with the mindset of ‘this is a business meeting’, and ive even had a job offer for the first time ever doing this.

      It helped me prepare better, as i wouldnt go into a meeting without knowing as much as i could about the company, what they were offering and what i could offer them in return. This led me to ask some insightful questions they were impressed with. Dont get me wrong i was still nervous, but i was extremely well prepared and clearly able to demonstrate my organizational skills and rational thinking in the process.
      I was able to name the companies they partnered with, the profit margins of each, annual turnover, date of incorperation, potential expansion plans they were considering and how this would affect the role directly.

      I was worried i would go blank if they asked me a question so i wrote some answers to some common interview questions down in a notebook, along with some questions i was planning to ask at the end if they werent covered. I didnt get it out, but i was 100% more confident because i knew it was there if i really really needed it.

      Perhaps this would help your husband if he’s lacking confidence?

      Because technically it it is a business meeting and they need to sell themselves to you as well.

  135. Environmental Compliance*

    Somehow, after recommending that we stop storing chemicals (used oil, mostly) in unmarked, uncovered random five gallon buckets, and that we don’t leave piles of water-collecting things (usually buckets) laying about outside….. all the buckets are gone.

    Of course, all the plant floor staff are now asking me where their buckets have gone. Where are my buckets? Why are the buckets not in my area? Why don’t I have my buckets anymore?

    I have no idea where the buckets are or why they got collected. If I hear the word bucket one more time, I think I’mma go a little insane. I have nothing to do with bucket activities. I just wanted us to align with requirements on chemical storage & labeling. Did not mean for all the buckets to get kidnapped.

    On the plus side, Hubs just accepted a new job offer, and we are now looking for a realtor to buy a house, so that’s pretty exciting.

    1. Annie Moose*

      This sounds like someone in upper management having a Brilliant Idea–“buckets keep getting left everywhere? Obviously we should get rid of the buckets!” With zero thought about whether or not the buckets were necessary for other purposes or if there’s some middle ground between “buckets everywhere” and “buckets nowhere”.

      Reminds me of the couch letter from yesterday, where people from another office complained that they didn’t have a couch so the managers just took the couch away from the letter writer’s office. Um, there are some other options here!

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        Yeah, one of my lovely colleagues apparently is the bucket “thief”, because it was exactly the “no middle ground, no couches for you” approach. I have successfully ransomed the buckets, and the Useful Buckets have been returned. Extraneous Buckets are still locked in a shed. I assume with the scrapers, brooms, shovels, etc. that I keep hearing are also missing. I am strongly considering spray painting the equipment with a color and assigning a color to an area.

        Bucket Queen? Perhaps.

    2. WellRed*

      What I want to know is, is were the kidnapped buckets full of chemicals and will they turn up somewhere as part of a mystery dump job?

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        No kidnapped chemical buckets! Just empty, laying around, won’t move out of the basement and get a job already buckets.

        The chemical buckets were already sent off to the correct disposal facility, we just had to pay extra for testing because they had no labels. Fun fact: the required labels live on a spool literally within 3 feet of where the Unlabeled Buckets were all kept.

  136. Snakes are Scary*

    I work at a place with an extremely casual dress code. T-shirt and jeans, spaghetti straps, tattoos and piercings are all okay. As long as it’s not obscene or showing off body parts covered by a bikini, it’s fine to wear.

    So, since our dress code is so lenient, I got a half-sleeve tattoo of a snake over the weekend. The snake’s body wraps around my arm and the head is on my collarbone. I didn’t think this would be a big deal. But I got back and one of my coworkers *freaked out*. Apparently he is terrified of snakes. He told me I should have checked with everyone before I got the tattoo. I was sympathetic because I’m scared of spiders, so I offered to wear different shirts than my preference so the head would be covered. He told me that wasn’t good enough and he wanted me to completely cover it all up.

    This would require me wearing long sleeves all the time. It’s 107 degrees where I am currently. Is this a reasonable ask? He’s mad at me and refuses to look at me. What can I do about this?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      What *can* you do? Lots of things. What *should* you do? Tell him you’re sorry he’s afraid of snakes, but your tattoo is within your employer’s dress code and you aren’t physically comfortable wearing what he wants you to wear, so you are unable to comply with his request. And politely refuse to discuss it further.

      1. BRR*

        Bingo. You offered a reasonable solution, he countered with an unreasonable solution. Sounds nice right now that he refuses to look at you.

    2. Murphy*

      No, that’s not reasonable! There’s no reason to check with everyone to see if your body art is OK. That would be really weird. I think your offer to cover up even part of it is generous. In that kind of heat, asking you to wear long sleeves is not OK.

    3. General Ginger*

      That’s not reasonable. You shouldn’t have to check if your body art is OK with everyone, and you’re already offering a solution. Maybe you could cover a little more than just the head of the snake, but you shouldn’t have to wear long sleeves. He can just, you know, not look at your arms.

    5. AnotherAlison*

      Ridiculous. We know some people are terrified of dogs, and I would say you should acquiesce and not bring your Doberman to a dog friendly office if you had a coworker like that, but I would also say you could have a tattoo of your dog, or a picture on your desk. Same thing here. He needs to manage his phobia, not you. It’s a picture.

    6. HannahS*

      It’s an unfortunate situation, but you didn’t do anything wrong by getting a tattoo, and you don’t have to wear long-sleeved shirts to cover it up. And it’s absolutely ridiculous to think that you should check with everyone before getting a tattoo, and he shouldn’t be MAD at you. If he can’t function, he needs to move his desk. I’d be VERY unhappy working with someone with a tattoo of a spider (or OMG a centipede) but if it was giving me a lot of anxiety the correct approach would be for me to start therapy to help with my phobia, move my desk so I’m not looking at it, or be silently miserable. But I wouldn’t be angry at someone for thinking spiders are cool. To be honest, if we were talking about a giant picture that you’d hung up above your desk that rendered him so anxious that he couldn’t enter your office, I think it would be ok to politely ask you to take it down, but this is inked on your body! Rusty Shackelford is right.

    7. LilySparrow*

      Does your coworker think he is in charge of everyone’s body, or only yours?

      This is like that letter a while back where the coworker with unmanaged OCD wanted to dictate what colors her co-workers wore, and how they lined up for the bus after work.

      It sounds like having this coworker refuse to look at or speak to you would be an improvement.

    8. Delphine*

      He wanted you to consult with your coworkers before getting a tattoo on your own body? He’s being ridiculous.

  137. SemiRetired*

    The routing slips on the journals have been updated. Now I don’t have to cross out my predecessor’s initials to put mine in anymore. Two years in. A little thing but I like it. That is all.

    1. b gordon*

      Oh, lucky! I’m 6 months in and am annoyed to get All The Mail sent to my predecessor. Apparently she loved to get brochures from every publisher, ever. Sigh.

  138. nep*

    How does your workplace do with recycling? If not great, do you ever say anything about it? Our office goes through countless Styrofoam cups a day and they all get tossed in the trash, even though a recycling facility in the same city accepts Styrofoam. I suggested to the director that we recycle them, but employers who’ve been there longer than I say ‘we’ve been down that road–it didn’t work…’

    1. Reba*

      Not using styrofoam would be a much better route! But if they’re not willing to consider changes to what happens after the cups are used, they’re probably also not willing to change the kind of cup.

      I am That Person who will carry recyclables a long way so I can bin them at home if there’s no recycling where I am. So I get it!

    2. LadyByTheLake*

      Get rid of the Styrofoam, have everyone bring their own mug. Have a couple of mugs with the company logo for visitors.

    3. JennyFair*

      Styrofoam is awful. Could you get the company to switch to something else instead? If previous attempts didn’t work, it was likely lack of employee cooperation.

    4. nep*

      Yup–agree that eliminating the Styrofoam is the thing to do. But I don’t see that happening, unfortunately. I’ll continue to suggest putting out some other kind of cups (the organisation puts them out for the public), but I don’t see them changing that. Big drag.

      1. BRR*

        My previous employer provided a reusable mug for everyone. While it didn’t eliminate the disposable cups, it at least cut down on them.

    5. Morning Glory*

      Is there any option to switch from styrofoam to paper cups, or better yet, reusable cups? Is there one person making these decisions that you could talk to about the issue? I work in a really eco-friendly building, so we are militant about recycling everything.

      1. nep*

        Yes–I’m going to push for something like this. It’s really ridiculous to keep pumping out Styrofoam when there are so many other ways to go. Hate the stuff.

  139. Just Me*

    Hello all! I have recently decided I need to find a new position. I have been with my current company a long time. They are very not-tech friendly. As in 20% of the people refuse to use email because it is “too technical”. (This is not industry-standard, just a small company.)

    How much is my lack of skills with any kind of modern productivity / communication software going to hurt my future employability? (Slack, Google and others ??) I see it being listed as skills to have in job descriptions. Would taking a Lynda.com course on this and listing it my resume be a good thing? What can I do to mitigate this lack? There is absolutely no way to change my office. I have tried for 15 years and have given up. :-)

      2. Rosemary7391*

        Given that I’ve posted about coping with a similar technological situation upthread, I think this is probably not as uncommon as we might hope…

        Just Me, what have/haven’t you used? Can you use any of these tools in a personal capacity? For example, trello you can sign up for and use alone. Slack, you could maybe see about joining an industry related slack group if such exists? It’d at least get you the basic idea.

        1. Just Me*

          Good to know I am not alone. Sad, but good. :-)

          That is a good idea, a podcaster for hobby group I am into has a Slack channel (how I heard about it). I will re-join and try to be more active as well as seeing if there are any industry boards.

          I am going to have to google Trello this weekend – yup, we are out of it. :-)

        2. Just Me*

          I use Asana for my personal workflow, but using it alone isn’t taking advantage of the features.

          1. Rosemary7391*

            I just had to google Asana, looks similar ish to Trello :)

            I know it’s not the same as using it with a team, but it is a start. To be honest I think if you’re familiar with the way online tools work generally you should pick it up pretty quickly – just like all photocopiers are slightly different but they do the same thing so you can figure it out.

    2. BRR*

      From what I’m getting, if you tend to pick up technology at least mildly quickly I think you’ll be fine. If you want to take a course there’s no harm in it but I wouldn’t list a Slack course on my resume.

    3. ..Kat..*

      Where I live, there are courses in this stuff at the library. Also, adult learning courses (often in the evening) at the community college. I recommend taking some classes and then going for a new job.

  140. Tina*

    Anyone here a lawyer who went from litigation to policy/legislative/lobbying work or anything similar? How did you transition? Any advice?

  141. Anonymous Cowpath Paver*

    So the dreaded Restructuring is happening.

    I work in back office operations for a regional bank. We only went paperless 3 or 4 years ago. Our procedures just mapped over from paper – as my handle suggests, we “paved the cowpath.” A lot of my job is creating Excel spreadsheets with data exported from our mainframe system through a web-based front end, and my team spends way too much time transcribing info from the mainframe to Excel. Our job is highly regulated so we need humans but it should not be this hard.
    The great-grandboss has a new IT team to automate as much as possible over the next two years. He’s very candid that this will decimate jobs. He promises better jobs including a group being insourced from an outside vendor.

    How do I skill up for this? I’m a gen Xer who took some programming classes years ago but I’ve forgotten most of it. I have a ton of business knowledge both of my current group and relevant to the division being insourced. Meanwhile we are too busy to innovate and I can barely keep up with my current workload and I am burning out.

    2. ronda*

      since this is the great grandboss’s promise… can you ask him.

      say you are excited about the improvements, but not sure what will be needed in the future. can he give you guidance on what things he thinks will be important in the future jobs (or who is the right person to talk about this more with). Then think about it and see if you can align with it.

      once you have done that, come up with some things you think will help you get there. Classes? Work on some specific tasks? ask for time to do these things and company paying for them as appropriate (classes etc).

  142. dovidbawie*

    I would just like to say how happy I am to have the green light to COMPLETELY IGNORE truck drivers who show up after the warehouse crew leaves. I’m on the creative team, not the warehouse team. They’re supposed to have appointments & if a single car in the parking lot doesn’t alert them, sucks to waste four days.

  143. anon.*

    If you haven’t checked your privacy settings on LinkedIn recently, you should do it ASAP. Loads of new features, 100% of which I found disturbing and immediately opted out of.

    1. nep*

      I’m not on any other social media so perhaps it’s common–but wow it’s crazy how all of a sudden there are changes on LI, no notice, no announcement, just there and in effect.
      Thanks for the heads-up.

      1. nep*

        (Now that I think of it…I don’t want to overstate it. There have just been a few times I’ve noticed changes in design, features, and the like. Just a bit off-putting sometimes.)

  144. YRH*

    I got an offer for a new job that I feel like I would be crazy to accept and crazy to decline. I like the content of the work I do currently. However, despite liking them personally, my current boss is a terrible manager. I am also really undercompensated currently both in terms of pay and benefits. The new job would open some doors I really want to open and would be a huge raise ($25K in salary and paid time off, plus easily another $5K-$10K in health insurance and retirement benefits). However, it is a 60 mile commute each way (largely reverse commute traffic-wise) and I currently walk to work (I will likely be losing the walk commute and switching back to public transit in the next few months regardless because a family member of my landlord’s want to move into my apartment). I would be able to vanpool to work, telework one day a week after six months, and telework 2 days a week after a year. I could maybe move 5-10 miles closer to work, but not much closer than that. My husband is super well established professionally in our current city and the commute is much worse in the direction he’d be going. Anyone have any insight? Would your advise change if the telework days weren’t on the table?

    1. she was a fast machine*

      Is vanpooling every day? Is that horribly untenable to you? Can you afford the extra time the commute would take? If it were me I’d jump at the idea for that kind of raise and opportunity, especially if there was not horrible traffic to take into account and the option for a carpool. Of course, how much your raise would get eaten into by your transportation costs is important to consider.

      60 miles where I am (Texas) is not uncommon. I have multiple coworkers who drive that distance one way every day, but they have their own vehicles and by and large have grown children and few family commitments.

    2. blue canary*

      I currently have a 50-55 minute commute and it is *very* frustrating. I have a young family, so I hate missing so much time with them. However, if I didn’t have young kids, I think the enormous salary bump and other benefits would make up for the commute, especially if you will get two telework days a week after a year.

    3. YRH*

      Vanpool would be 4 days a week and the job would pay for about half of those costs. Maybe somewhat naively, I think I’d be fine with vanpooling. I sleep pretty easily in cars and think I’d use that as my reading time instead of before bed like I do now. I think I would hate driving myself every day, but 1 days a week for 6 months seems fine to me. I don’t have kids. I imagine I would dislike that type of commute if I did. However, that’s still a few years off most likely.

      Thanks for the feedback!

      1. Muriel Heslop*

        No kids? I would totally take that, especially with the vanpool option. I’ve had a 45-60 minute commute before and the driving was what killed me. If I could spend that time reading, napping, or listening to a podcast I would be in heaven.

        Good luck and congratulations on the new opportunity!

    5. Antilles*

      Few thoughts:
      1.) There’s a world of difference between being in the driver’s seat for an hour in traffic versus sitting in the back reading a book or on your phone or whatever. Even if you still have to drive occasionally for whatever reason, not having to drive most of the time goes a long way towards making the commute more feasible.
      2.) How certain is the telework? Is it very common within the company? I’d be a little wary if you’re the *only* person who’s supposed to get this future benefit since it’d be very easy for them to change their minds and/or for a new manager to come in and cancel it. But if it’s fairly common, then I wouldn’t worry about this at all.
      3.) The way you’re describing your current job (bad manager, wildly underpaid) doesn’t sound like something you’d really want to stick with for a while anyways. So regardless of #1 and #2, it seems like there’s strong incentive to take it anyways.

      1. YRH*

        Telework is pretty common. The job is a state government position, so a new administration could theoretically change things I guess (I’d be shocked if the person I expect to be the next governor changed this based on his track record).

        Thanks everyone for your feedback. I appreciate it.

  145. Woodgrain*

    Any tips on how to gauge the culture or work life balance of an organisation before joining it? I’m thinking about small companies and non-profits where you’re unlikely to know someone working there through friends.
    Are there any interview questions that might help me suss it out?

    I’m luck enough to already have a job I like but that has limited opportunities for progression. Prior to that I had a job where I hated everyone and everything and I’m at a stage in my life now where ‘culture’ and work life balance are important to me. Because I quite like my working environment now (awesome colleagues, good hours and a nice atmosphere) I’m hesitant about making a leap in case I end up somewhere that isn’t a good fit for me. Thanks.

    1. Miami101*

      I love glassdoor.com. I’m not sure if it has companies outside of the US (besides international ones) but it’s a great site that has reviews from real people working there. The reviews vary from work life balance to salary to benefits.

    2. Antilles*

      Well, it’s possible to just ask outright, especially if you can fit it in as a natural part of the process…but the key is that you need to pay close attention to how they respond. Very few companies would come out and say they expect 90 hour weeks, *but* you can usually find good information in exactly how they react and say it.
      Do they seem surprised that you asked, like you’re the first candidate who has ever had a family? Do they sort of blow it off and not really answer the question? Do they make any jokes about it*? Did they get awkward? What tone do they use in answering?
      *This is probably the absolute worst one – If they make any sort of a joke about how they love to work or work too hard or anything of the sort, it’s a pretty clear signal that they really do have an unbalanced environment. Especially if they go into any sort of detail in that joke – in a normal and healthy environment, it wouldn’t even cross someone’s mind to make a joke about “haha, we’re so dedicated that people call into meetings from Caribbean cruises” or “haha, don’t worry, we won’t be expecting you to buy a sleeping bag for the office or anything”. So even though the wording of their joke says ‘it’s fine’, it’s a giant red flag that they’re close enough to that level that the joke even came to mind.

  146. fromscratch*

    During my salary negotiation for my current job, my now boss agreed that I would receive a 10% increase after 90-180 days at the company due to a pending round of VC funds that would be closing after I was hired. They couldn’t provide my desired salary at the start date but I was assured in writing that the increase was “the plan” for that time frame. I agreed on the condition that the increase would be happening and made it very clear that I could not sustain working for the lower salary for more than that amount of time. I love my job – it is the best job I’ve ever had – so I don’t want to leave.

    It has now been 194 days since I started working and I approached my boss about the raise. I’ve been told that it won’t be happening for at least another two months and maybe even longer due to issues with other staff members not performing well. However, my performance has been “exceeds expectations” at both quarterly review meetings.

    How would you proceed?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Since you don’t want to look for another job, I point out that this raise was agreed upon before you took the job, and request that when it does come through, it be made retroactive back to day 180.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      Since you don’t want to look for another job, I’d point out that this raise was agreed upon before you took the job, and request that when it does come through, it be made retroactive back to day 180.

    3. The Ginger Ginger*

      I’d also seriously question why your raise is contingent on the performance of others. Was that clearly outlined in the written promise? If not, I’d point that out explicitly. Something like – we agreed to this timeline in writing, and there was no indication that this pay increase would be contingent on the performance of the department/team as a whole. (and depending on how firm you want to be) If that had been the case, that would seriously changed my calculations for accepting the role, as I have no control or influence on the performance of others. (Or even) This feels like a change to the terms of our hiring agreement.

      Or some variation on that. Because, unless they mentioned that your salary was dependent on how other people on your team were doing, this feels like a pretty serious bait and switch to me.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        I’d also seriously question why your raise is contingent on the performance of others.

        I assumed they literally meant they couldn’t afford to give you a raise because they weren’t making enough money due to the performance of others. But if it’s anything else… yeah, tell them that’s not what you were promised.

    4. Thlayli*

      You have it in writing. Show him a copy of the written statement saying you would get this and say if I haven’t received what I was promised within the next 2 weeks I will be discussing this with my solicitor.

    5. The New Wanderer*

      I think if you’re in the US, even having it in writing isn’t worth much. There have been letters here about people having their WFH privileges revoked or not honored after they were negotiated in the offer stage.

      I’d go with arranging for the raise to be retroactive, clarify why the performance of others is impacting your raise, and … seriously consider job hunting again if the current salary is really not going to cut it long term. A job you love is worth a lot, but I’d plan on not getting that raise for quite some time (and let it be a pleasant surprise if they do come through!).

    6. Jerry Vandesic*

      Start looking for another job. This job is just a job, a job that isn’t willing to follow through on its commitments. You should look for another job that you will love, and will not lie to you.

  147. Courageous cat*

    I got my dream job! And a written offer!

    This is after my last job offer was rescinded halfway through my 2 weeks because they had not gotten approval for my salary.

    Now, a question: I had planned an in-person meeting with the CEO of a company that I have tried to work for many times, but the timing never worked out (mainly on my end – I turned down a job with them twice for timing reasons only). She still really likes me and wants it to work out someday, but now there’s no real reason to meet because I got this job.

    I feel terrible cancelling after all we’ve been through and I want to keep that line of communication open. Does anyone have a good script for this? It’s particularly tricky to me since I’ve already turned her down before so it’s hard to do the whole “I hope we stay connected in the future” spiel for the 3rd time. I dunno! Maybe I’m overthinking.

    1. Reba*

      Why don’t you share your news and ask if the CEO is still interested in meeting up, as a general networking and talking about the field news meeting, rather than a job-possibility meeting?

      Congratulations!

      1. Courageous cat*

        Thanks so much! That’s a good idea buuut the bigger issue (I guess) is that we’ve already done that! We’ve met a few times for similar reasons, so that’s what makes it tricky. She’s also quite busy because it’s a big brand in my state so I don’t want to waste her time. And then to add to that, I’m meeting with my new company on that day now too.

        She told me recently it felt like we were “destined” which makes me feel even sadder about this email. So basically I don’t know how to gracefully phrase “I got a job and I love you and would have loved to meet but… no real reason to now? Sorry!”

      1. Courageous cat*

        Thanks so much, nep!! I think the positive vibes you sent me from your comment on it last week were a good omen. :) I’m so relieved I don’t have to keep trudging through the job hunt, because I think this one really would have gotten me down if I had been rejected, haha.

  148. Fishcakes*

    I need a good, honest critique of my portfolio and skills, but I don’t know where to get it. I would pay! Is there a service like this? Is this something people do?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Since you say portfolio, I’m picturing something like graphic design? Do you have a former professor or a colleague you trust who could take a look in exchange for coffee or lunch? Or maybe a friend in the field– or an adjacent one– who is more experienced?

      1. Fishcakes*

        Yep graphic design. I graduated 15 years ago and have always worked as the lone designer, so I don’t have any connections I can ask. This is also why I need a really good critique, since going that long without input from other professionals has been detrimental to my growth.

        1. Pantone*

          Are you a member of your local AIGA chapter? Maybe look into Behance and some professional groups on FB and LinkedIn? I hear you on the solo designer thing. I’m typically the only designer as well and it can be hard to step back and take an objective look at your work.

          1. Fishcakes*

            I was a member of the RGD and I think I will re-join. Good idea! I haven’t had much luck online. I’ve found people very competitive/gatekeepy and unwilling to help each other out. The critiques I have gotten are too vague for me to really work with.

    3. wingmaster*

      Maybe you can reach out to companies or people in your field that you follow and make it an informational interview too? Most people who do respond are more than happy to meet with you. I am not in your field but in fashion design. Just simply reaching out to small, local brands that I follow has helped me get good comments on my portfolio. And they usually will refer me to one of their contacts and so forth.

      You said you’ve worked as the “lone designer.” I assume you’ve been freelancing. Would your clientele have other contacts too?

      You should also try some online forums. Reddit, GraphicDesignForums.co/uk, maybe Behance?

      1. Fishcakes*

        I’ve tried those avenues and the critiques I’ve received haven’t been of the quality that I’m looking for. Very vague and it seems either people don’t want to hurt my feelings or they don’t really have the knowledge required. I like the idea of paying for a service because then I can vet the person and their qualifications and I’m more likely to receive a comprehensive, useful critique.

        1. wingmaster*

          Sorry for the duplicate comment below. It didn’t show up when I posted it.

          All I can think of is AIGA..is there membership to those who finished school?

          Best of luck with everything!

    4. wingmaster*

      Maybe you can reach out the companies or designers that you follow for an informational over coffee? I am not in your field (I’m in fashion design), and this is what has helped me make my portfolio stronger. Most people who respond are more than happy to sit with you. And usually they will have contacts that you can reach out too, so you’re also growing your network.

      You say you have worked as “the lone designer.” I assume you’re freelancing. Would your clientele have any other contacts you can reach out to?

      Also try online forums for critiques like Reddit, Graphic Design forum, Behance, etc

  149. trying to be an office worker*

    I’m trying to get into entry level office work. I recently graduated from a trade/technical school. I’ve applied for bank teller at a branch of the bank I have an account with but messed upon the assessment(it didn’t show up right on my laptop until it was too late) My question is: would y’all apply for bank jobs at a bank you don’t have an account with? would it seem weird if they had asked me if I did and I said it was with a nother and they wonder why I was applying?

    1. LadyByTheLake*

      Most of us in banking have our accounts at a different institution. It would be really, really weird if they even asked if you are a customer.

      1. LadyByTheLake*

        PS. Many of us in banking purposefully keep our accounts elsewhere so we (1) don’t run into Reg O problems (for those of us who are senior) (2) can see what the competition is doing, and (3) keep our work and personal lives separate. I can’t even begin to tell you how common it is to not have accounts at the company you work at in this industry.

        1. trying to be an office worker*

          Thank you so much! I don’t really have friends who work in the field so I wasn’t quite sure how it would seem.

    2. King Friday XIII*

      Agreeing with the Lady above! I didn’t have an account here until I got the job, and I still have accounts several other places. Nobody’s gonna think twice about it.

    3. ..Kat..*

      Many trade and technology schools have job placement centers that can help you find jobs. Good luck.

  150. The Babiest Babyface*

    I have some difficulty with, obsessive compulsive handwashing. (It’s not to the point of being a disorder, but it’s definitely something people notice— as evidenced by my current boss having a sit down conversation with me about how I “over-sanitize.”) This isn’t a big problem in my current workplace, as I’m in a quality role in a food plant, but today is my last day (woohoo!!) and in wonderinrg if this will this reflect badly on me once I enter an office environment. My thought it to switch to hand sanitizer, but I also know that with the amount I use it, the smell gets to be overwhelming to some people. Any tips, especially from people with similar problems?

    2. Kendra*

      I think hand sanitizer would be more noticeable than handwashing because it would happen at your desk, but could you disguise the handwashing trips as something else? Maybe deliberately bring a small water bottle or mug and drink a lot of water/coffee/tea/etc, so there’s an evident reason for a lot of “bathroom” trips that are a disguise for handwashing, going to the break room to refill your bottle / make another cup of coffee and you just happen to wash your hands while you’re there? Then maybe you could find hand sanitizer that smells more like lotion, so it wouldn’t be as noticeable that you apply it so often?

      1. Muriel Heslop*

        There are antibacterial hand lotions available. My student with formally diagnosed OCD uses a Purell lotion that is pretty moisturizing to combat dryness. He keeps spares in my desk and the smell isn’t too bad (but I’m probably immune to it now.) I’m sure there are others.

    4. ..Kat..*

      The International Obsessive Compulsive Disorder Foundation (iocdf.org) may have helpful information for you.

  151. Miami101*

    Anyone know of medical device companies that have flexible remote work policy? My goal one day is to have a remote work schedule such that I would be able to spend a few weeks working abroad and then return to the US.

    1. Lizardbreath*

      There are serious tax implications to working outside the US, so even if you found a company that allowed remote work (or was mainly remote) it would likely be difficult if not impossible to work abroad.

      My best friend just got a job with Medtronic and it’s 100% work from home, though she does travel to her study sites every few months I think.

  152. Anon for this one*

    Y’all, I need some advice on coming out trans at work.

    I work in a pretty LGBTQ-unsupportive office that is also a small business, and am fully aware that I will most likely need to find another job soon after, which is fine. I’ve outgrown this job, and the pay, as is, but I would still like to get out of here with decent references and no seriously burned bridges. Ideally speaking, I’d just leave without coming out, ASAP, but my job search has been slow. I’m on HRT, the physical changes are harder and harder to hide, the mental and psychological strain of pretending to be someone I’m not is immense, and to top it off, I’m about to have pretty obvious gender confirmation surgery. I don’t want to keep hiding after surgery, and am not looking forward to a really awkward conversation with my manager.

    I’ve already gotten some insights from other folks who’ve gone through this, and hit up the relevant subreddit, but I am still unsure as to how to even structure this conversation.

  153. she was a fast machine*

    Advice for dealing with some really demoralizing blows would be a lot of help. Long story short, lots of people have recently “resigned without notice”, people who seemed to be doing fine and had no issues, there’s been tremendous stress as we’re rolling out a new initiative in August that requires all hands on deck, they’ve not rehired two positions that were lost, bringing the staff who did that job from 8 to 6(including myself) while increasing our workload by about 50% in addition to the jobs we took on when we lost our two staff members. Our manager is patronizing us by offering us lifesavers candy instead of actual help and pulling us into mandatory meetings to remind us that everyone is under a lot of stress and sometimes we just have to suck it up. Due to the new initiative, a lot of people are being told they can’t take leave in August, the traditional time people have scheduled things.

    Things are nearly untenable for a lot of us who are left; my husband is encouraging me to look for another job. I just don’t know if I should wait for things to die down a little and see how it is then, or if this is all a signal of the culture changing and the first of things to come and I should get out before it gets worse. I just don’t know how to cope and leave my work stress at work, juggle the demoralizing nature of all of this, and determine if I should start looking for another job immediately or wait and see how it goes.

    1. OhGee*

      Oh, that sounds very stressful indeed! I’m sorry you’re going through that.

      I would probably start looking now, but not aggressively – review your resume and update it if needed, see if you can find any job postings that really grab your attention, and apply to those. That way you’re not stressing yourself out with an aggressive job search, but if things *do* continue to be terrible at your current job and you decide you *must* leave, you’ll already be in the swing of things as far as job searching goes.

      As far as coping, do you have any healthy coping mechanisms you’ve used to get through past times of stress? I do things like journal, make extra sure to exercise/care for myself in other ways, and try to set boundaries about who I can vent to and how much (that is the hardest for me).

      Good luck – this definitely sounds like a pretty challenging situation!

      1. she was a fast machine*

        Thank you for the sympathy. On top of all of that, this kind of position is hard to find, especially at this pay, which is market average in an area where nobody wants to pay that. My last job search took almost a year, and I’m actually planning on moving to another city in about a year, which complicates things because even if I got a new job tomorrow, I wouldn’t be there very long. But sucking it up here for another year of what this past month has been like seems like a literal nightmare.

        I’m really trying to get back to my healthy coping strategies, which is really hard because I come home from a day at work and have zero initiative or energy to do anything. I wake up and dread going to work. It’s horrible, especially since I used to love this job.

        1. OhGee*

          This is all really familar to me, from having a position that will be hard to replace at a similar salary to feeling drained after work and dreading going there. All I can say is identify who will be most supportive of you as you figure this out and be sure to talk with them, and start small as far as caring for yourself goes. I started just a few weeks ago doing short daily meditation and stretching (maybe a 25 minute commitment total) before work, and sticking with that has helped me start to incorporate other little things I can do for myself. You’ll find what works for you.

    2. Birdbrain*

      Personally I’d say take a look at some job boards and apply to postings that appeal to you. If things improve at your current job, you can withdraw from consideration. And if they don’t? You’ll have a head start on job hunting, an updated resume, and a sense of the job market.

      I totally understand feeling “but what if this disaster is just temporary?” and the tendency to prefer the status quo over the unknown. But at this point you’re not choosing the unknown, you’re just opening your options.

      (I’ll take “Advice I give to other people but am terrible at following myself” for $500, Alex.)

      1. she was a fast machine*

        LOL your last aside I think is key. I’m absolutely wonderful at giving advice and this is the advice I’d give myself…but taking it is so scary! I live in a relatively rural town and while my position isn’t uncommon it’s also not typically an easy one to find, and it’s usually very underpaid, which my current one isn’t(I’m underpaid for the level and amount of work I do, but not the position itself, I just do more work than I’m supposed to). I know if I don’t start looking now I’ll never find another job; my last job search took almost a year. But at the same time, I’m looking at moving to another city in just under a year, and if this job search takes another year it will be pointless.

        1. Paquita*

          Is there a reason for the year timeline? Can you look at moving that up and just look for jobs in the new city? That would seem to be a better option.

          1. she was a fast machine*

            I’m going back to school in the fall next year, so I’ll be leaving working full time for a period. My kind of work is not something that you find part-time very much, and when you do the hours don’t mesh with classes.

  154. OhGee*

    How do *you* stay motivated when you are unhappy with your current job and actively job hunting?

    I’ve been at my current org over 3-1/2 years, and have been pretty dissatisfied for a while now. It’s a combination of things, but the big one is that the culture is toxic and unlikely to change due to entrenched nonprofit leadership. (I have done a lot to try to improve things, and they’ve gotten better — but our leadership is not something I can affect.)

    I’ve been interviewing since the beginning of this year, and am stepping up my search again. The job search part is going ok, but my major issue is staying motivated at work. My productivity has tanked this year, and it’s starting to dawn on me that, while I can get away with doing just the basics at my current job, I feel very, very concerned that I will bring this attitude to a new job. Also, feeling motivated at work helps me stay motivated in other aspects of my life. So what do you do to keep going, stay focused, and get things done when your heart isn’t in it?

    1. Kendra*

      This is more of a cautionary tale, but I had a similar situation with a research project in college where I hated the project and didn’t do a good job on it, and now I need to apply to grad school and I really regret that I won’t be able to get a good reference from the professor I worked for. Maybe the thought of wanting a good reference in the future could help?

    2. AeroEngineer*

      Wow, your situation sounds similar to mine, except that I have less time at my current org.

      I hope to be able to take a couple of weeks off in between the two jobs (if I ever make it to an offer stage -.- ) and give myself some time to recharge and try and lose that attitude. As well, I currently push myself to go every week to do sports (or another club) that I am passionate about, so that I still have passion about something and will not start at 0.

      I’ve found that the new environment itself can sometimes be enough to kick-start the motivation again.

  155. Nervous Nellie*

    I’m hoping for advice on supporting my boyfriend while he goes through a job search. He’s just finished up a 1 year fellowship (so we knew it was a temporary position) and he’s looking for his next opportunity, but his fellowship ends this week and he hasn’t found anything yet. I know job searching is incredibly stressful and I want to be there in a way that keeps him optimistic and doesn’t add pressure for him. Does anyone have any ideas?

  156. Nervous Accountant*

    Oh. Wonder if this is a weekend post or Friday post.

    Our office microwave is gone. No idea when it’ll be fixed or replaced.

    Any ideas for meals to eat? There’s a fully functional fridge as well. Just can’t heat anything up.

    2. Nita*

      I usually bring in sandwiches with cold cuts, fresh fruit, cut veggies, maybe a pastry if I’m really hungry.

    3. Corky's Wife Bonnie*

      There are some great recipes out there for cold summer salads. I’ve made one with a lemon vinaigrette, cooked quinoa, cucumbers, grilled veggies, etc. and put whatever leftover meat in it that I’ve had for dinner that week (usually chicken) and maybe some goat or blue cheese and walnuts. I didn’t tell my hubby what all was in it and he came home from work and said, “that was yummy and my co-workers were jealous!”

    4. Not All Who Wander*

      Egg salad sandwiches
      Hummus & (crackers, carrots, pita, whatever)
      Salad (I do spinach, goat cheese, walnuts, & balsamic that I make up myself in a giant tupperware)
      Sliced cheese & apple/pear slices

      with a stash of…
      Little Debbie Nutty Bars
      Belvita Bars
      Fig Newtons
      dark chocolate Twix

      Will they let you bring in a toaster oven? My last 2 offices had those and quite a few people would cook Tortino pizzas in them which actually worked really well as long as there aren’t too many people trying to do it!

    5. zora*

      Big salads/grain bowls with chicken or other protein. keep the dressing in a separate container until eating. These are basically my lunch and dinner every day because I can prep a bunch of ingredients separately, and just throw them together in a bowl when I need to eat.

    6. Annie Moose*

      In addition to what everyone else suggested, cold pasta can be delicious if it’s the right kind (e.g. not spaghetti and meatballs, probably!)

  157. Nita*

    Thoughts on negotiating a longer (unpaid) maternity leave than the 12 weeks covered by FMLA? I’ve got to have this discussion with my boss in the next month or two, and am thinking about what cards I could possibly lay on the table. For context – longer leaves are not unusual here, but this is my third kid (I only took 3 months for my first, but 7 for my second) and we’re short-staffed, as usual. Seriously desperate for some time with the family. All the plans I’ve made to be with them more this year have crashed and burned, and I’m getting to the point where I don’t think I can keep living like this.

    I realize how much of an inconvenience this will be, so I’m perfectly willing to give up my bonus for this year, the usual raise (everyone gets at least a small one), and my office (whoever is doing my work is welcome to it!). Would it be weird to also ask for a pay cut, or offer to come back at a lower billing level as field staff? We’re more or less OK with project management, but permanently short of field staff, and I think this would help. I’m a little nervous because this means a lot of odd hours that will prevent me from helping with day care drop off/pick up, but if that’s the price I have to pay, oh well…

    1. Jillociraptor*

      You’ll know your context best, but honestly it’s often easier to plan for coverage for a 6-12 month absence than a 2-3 month absence. You might be surprised by how amenable your leadership will be for this, especially since you’d be taking the leave unpaid. I would start by just asking for the amount of leave that you want and seeing what their response is. I wouldn’t put any of the other stuff on the table, except maybe to articulate that you realize this is a longer than typical leave and would like to discuss what might be possible to make that happen. I don’t think you should proactively offer to come back at a lower level, unless you want that.

      Good luck negotiating the leave! I hope that you’re able to settle on the right thing for you and your family!

      1. Nita*

        I didn’t even think of it that way! I hope you’re right and a long leave will actually be easier to cover.

      2. b gordon*

        One word of caution: at my place of work, unpaid leave=no benefits=no health insurance. That may not be an issue for you, but would be a deal breaker for many.

  158. Leo*

    So we have a running slideshow at the front desk at my job that includes the month’s birthday. At the monthly staff meeting, that’s used to quickly announce all the staff birthdays and birthdays also get a $10 amazon gift card. My birthdays this month and I got my gift card in my mail box! But my birthday was left off the slide. I’m surprised at myself for feeling a little sad about this; I’m really not a huge birthday person. But I found myself being a little disappointed at the thought of my birthday being left out at the meeting and not getting the tiny moment of applause lol. Am I being too sensitive? Can I bring this up to the coordinator who puts the slide together?

    1. SoCalHR*

      but other people’s names were on the slide and announced in the meeting? I’m sorry that sucks (I know how it feels to feel a little dumb for it mattering, but these things do – which is why employers needs to be so careful about consistency)

    2. Emilitron*

      If you do, figure out what you’re asking for. Do you want them to put your name up next month? (Hey, I know you didn’t forget me because I got my card, but did you notice my name wasn’t on the ppt? Can you add it to next month’s?) Do you just want them to remember next year? (wait till next June: Hey, just wanted to be sure my name was on the July chart, it got left off last year) If you just want an apology and sympathy, that’s actually a more difficult conversation, because it will involve a lot of awkward, “no really, it’s ok, I just wanted you to know” and there won’t be a clear point at which to conversation is complete.

    3. Adele*

      I understand the twinge but you are being too sensitive. You are an adult and it is a birthday acknowledgment at work. It is not like your mom forgot and it surely wasn’t intentional. Maybe there were other people whose birthdays were accidentally left off, if not this month, then other months. If it really bothers you, say something to the person who puts together the slide show. I wouldn’t ask or expect it to be corrected next month, but that person can make sure it is correct on their master list for next year.

    4. Bagpuss*

      I don’t think you are being too sensitive but I do think it could look that way If not carefully handled.
      I’d speak to the coordinator but frame it as “I noticed that my name wasn’t on the birthdays slide for July. I got the gift card so my birthday must be in the system but I thought you’d want to know so you can check whether the list you work from is accurate or whether there might be other people whose details aren’t correct “
      That way, you are treating it as you would if your name was left of any other kind of list, like an internal directory- as an admin issue not a ‘you forgot my birthday’ one.

  159. Anonybus*

    I’ve been having an issue with some odd behavior from coworkers, snd wondering if anyone has any insight or explanation.
    The pattern seems to be: identify people’s benign habits and preferences (favorite color, hobbies, media, anything), and try to badger or prompt the person into changing them via unrequested suggestions (complete with repeated phrases and weird googly eyed stares), denying or contradicting other people’s statements about themselves, etc.

    The trouble is, pointing out that it’s odd or annoying doesn’t make it stop. Asking what they’re trying to accomplish gets no response. There’s a lot of overlap between the people acting like this and people who are big into “strategic communication”, etc., so my sense is that they may have gotten the same bad advice from somewhere about this kind of thing being a leadership skill (instead of just intrusive and annoying).
    Because asking them what’s going on hasn’t worked, I wonder if some of you might recognize it.

    1. LadyByTheLake*

      Whaaaa?? Can you provide examples? I’m imagining someone arguing with me that my favorite color should be red instead of blue. Yeah, that isn’t something you can actually have an argument about.

      1. Anonybus*

        That’s actually pretty accurate: i like neutral/monochrome colors. One of these people repeatedly, with no prompting, will tell me how much they like the color blue. Ok, cool.

        But then: *leans in, does stare* “like a deep, cobalt, or navy blue”.
        Me: …ok.

        This will be repeated in some fashion. Anything from a few days to a week later, i’ll get: “you’re still wearing black and grey all the time”, or some other such comment, in a disappointed tone.

        Um, yeah. What did you think was going to happen?

        1. Anonybus*

          Things besides cothing/arsthetics that this has applied to include: food preferences, being a morning or evening person, preferred physical activity, personality traits and domain knowledge.

          It’s genuinely jacked-up.

    2. Quill*

      I only recognize this from middle school as the type of power play tactics that people use to form little cliques.

      (But based on that and the fact that you don’t have to be good at leadership to write a book on how to lead… I wouldn’t be surprised if they got it out of some book on that.)

      1. Thlayli*

        It sounds like they read a book on neuro-linguistic programming and are now trying out the techniques… and realising they are mostly bollox.

    3. CM*

      It sort of sounds like… they’re trying to hypnotize you??
      Could there be some connection with a specific “strategic communication” book/philosophy that’s cult-like or similar to negging or other strategies where you try to psychologically manipulate people?

    4. Adele*

      Learning to be direct is a very important skill. Just say “Dude, knock it off. My clothes/food/hobbies/music is not up for discussion. It is weird that you care so much about it.” And I would start with “weird” but would escalate to “creepy” for repeat offenders.

      1. Anonybus*

        That’s more or less verbatim what i’ve been saying for the past year or so. “That really isn’t up to you”, “i’m confused about what you’re hoping to accomplish, here”, “will you please stop that, it’s getting really old”. Usually that buys me about a week before the next installment.

        Admittedly, it did take me a while to speak up at first, because it was so odd that i’d been too startled to know what to say in the moment. So, you’re correct that being very direct has helped, but i’m still mystified by why something that’s this unsuccessful would still persist, even when the person on the other end calls it out.

    5. LilySparrow*

      I think if this had been going on for a year, I’d move on to naming the behavior instead of just pushing back on the intention. The intention doesn’t really matter.

      “Look, cut it out. You keep coming over here to stare at me and get up in my face and give me your opinions about my clothes and my food and everything else. You are seriously out of line. Are you going to listen to me this time, or do I have to make it official?”

      If you normally speak in a more formal way, or if this person is so senior that you can’t talk to them that casually, you could say “Please stop staring at me. Please stop leaning so close to me. Please stop making comments about my personal appearance. This is unwelcome and intrusive, and it needs to stop right now. Can you stop this on your own, or do I need to make it official?”

      And then document the conversation and follow up with HR if need be. This is a seriously creepy power play. IME, most bullies back down if met with sufficient clarity of purpose.

      They will probably make noises about “overreacting” and being “oversensitive” and all kinds of bs. I’d let them make all the bs noises they want as long as they stop the behavior. It’s going to damage the illusion that the two of you are friendly, but it’s only an illusion anyway, because this person is not being friendly at all.

      1. Anonybus*

        Thanks, that’s good, actionable advice. Nobody involved has direct authority over me, so that should help.
        I’m glad that I brought this situation up here. I wasn’t sure if I was just overreacting, but having some confirmation that other prople find this to be as creepy as I do is kind of a relief.

    6. ..Kat..*

      I like blue. “Okay.”
      Really deep blue, like cobalt. “I see.”
      You’re still wearing neutrals. “Yes.”

      Invest as little energy in this as possible. Asking why they are this, telling them to stop, etc are not working. Just ignore it.

  160. Quill*

    How do you find a non-contract job in the sciences?

    I’ve turned 26 and contract jobs aren’t working for me anymore, based on the insurance availability (negligible) and that it’s pretty much impossible in my area to relocate for a 6 month contract. Most of my jobs have been in an at-will state, and I work in R&D, so I’ve had contracts get cancelled early before.

    How do I present myself as a strong candidate when I don’t have job experience in my field of studies (because whenever I’ve looked for a job no opportunies have been available that I could afford to relocate for – it’s a slow field overall,) I don’t have a degree in my current line of work, and I’ve got chronic health stuff that has impacted my performance at previous jobs?

    1. zora*

      What kind of science, and what do you really want to do?

      I work for a Communications Agency that has a lot of health industry and food/nutrition industry clients, and people with science degrees who also enjoy communications are very appreciated here. And well paid. I’ve heard the same about tech firms that work in science sectors, or provide services to the science industry. Have you thought about tangential opportunities and what kinds of actual day to day tasks you would be happy doing?

  161. HereKittyKitty*

    I’m curious about thoughts:

    I have a coworker that’s not great at her job. I think one of the issues is that she seems to need a lot of direction and has a hard time strategizing her own. When she does strategize her plans are a little off the wall and have clear issues with them. However one of the issues is that she doesn’t have a manager. She is the only teapot glazer. She reports to the CEOs of Teapots Incorp, but she doesn’t have a direct manager that provides guidance and direction.

    Sometimes my manager, who used to be in charge of teapot glazing, tries to help her or give her direction. Except teapot glazing isn’t her job anymore. However the current teapot glazer does such a poor job, it really distresses my manager to not be able to give feedback. (Note, my manager wasn’t removed from teapot glazing for poor performance, it just became a big enough job that they needed to hire someone else to be in charge of that department.) Anyway because the teapot glazer has no one she really reports to and no guidance a lot of her mistakes end up going unchecked. My manager feels weird about giving her feedback because she’s technically not her manager. The CEOs of Teapots Incorps don’t have much knowledge about how teapots are supposed to be glazed, so as long as it’s glazed they’re fine even if it’s glazed poorly.

    The current teapot glazer is also very sensitive and does not take criticism well. When my manager was tasked to give her feedback when she first started, she would become distressed or even cry when given feedback. I realize this is a multifaceted problem, but I’m curious to hear people’s thoughts on this. Do we carry on ignoring bad teapot glazing as long as the CEOs are fine with the quality of glazing? Should my manager try and help more or just let it go? Have any of your been in this position before?

    1. HereKittyKitty*

      Oh I also want to say my manager and I aren’t in a position totally different from teapot glazing. Technically it would make more sense if she was included in our department, but for whatever reason, she’s floating in her own ether.

    2. WellRed*

      Is your manager senior to her? Also, if your manager was tasked with giving her feedback, and has the knowledge to do so, I think she should. (The distress and crying is a separate issue).

      1. HereKittyKitty*

        The problem is she’s not. They’re technically supposed to be on the same level, so she’s not senior to her. She was tasked at giving her feedback when the new person just started, but is no longer tasked with that. She’s not been explicitly told to /not/ give feedback, but she has stepped away from all projects related to teapot glazing after the transition.

  162. Purple Jello*

    I have a colleague whose position is being eliminated. She is well-loved by the staff. Normally we have a good-bye gathering at a bar/restaurant after work, or a cake on their last day in the breakroom. She doesn’t want either.

    It doesn’t feel right to do nothing. I’m looking for suggestions of what else might be meaningful without being intrusive.

    1. nep*

      Follow her lead all the way. Think about whom you’re looking to satisfy with a gesture–in this case I think it’s got to be all about her. If she wants nothing, do nothing.

      1. Purple Jello*

        I agree with and am okay with no gathering, I just don’t want to “ignore” her leaving us. She did great things for the company, and is a wonderful person.

    3. zora*

      I would focus on personal and heartfelt, then. Get a card and circulate it so that everyone gets a chance to write a note. Multiple cards, or add some inserts of nice paper depending on how many people there are. And ask management if you can spend the money budgeted for the cake on a small gift or a gift card. I personally would go with something inexpensive but useful, like a nice throw blanket or a potted plant. Something easy for her to carry home.

      And then put those things quietly on her desk early on her last day. So that there isn’t a public deal being made, but you are quietly showing her how much people appreciated her work.

      1. zora*

        Another idea just occurred. We’ve been printing these little books through Shutterfly. You could have each person write a message, and then either put each message with that person’s headshot, or over an image relevant to the company, or photos from company activities. (We work on food issues, so each page could be a food photo) and have that printed and bound with the company logo on the front cover. It’s a small thing, ours are like 6″ square, so it wouldn’t take up a lot of space, it would be easy to slip in her bag to take home, but it would be a tangible reminder of her time there and how much she was appreciated.

    4. Not All Who Wander*

      Framed photo of something she likes with the matting signed by everyone
      Card signed by everyone with a gift card inside
      does she like plants? if so, a nice easy plant like a phal orchid or a jade plant

      Whatever you do, have her supervisor deliver it informally rather than making a production BUT make sure everyone knows that this is the employee’s wish…we just went through this at my office and it was widely believed that her manager was just blowing her off rather than following her very, very strong preference so there was a lot of confusion and frustration to clear up after the fact.

      1. zora*

        Oh, I agree with the letting everyone know this is the employee’s preference.
        And I wouldn’t even deliver it. I would just have it quietly waiting on her desk when she comes in. It can be hard to accept a gift directly from someone if you are a private person.

    5. Purple Jello*

      These are all good ideas, thanks. I know they’re talking about a gift card, but I’ll mention that we should make sure everyone knows she doesn’t want a production. People have been stopping by already to talk to her, so it won’t be a surprise.

    7. The New Wanderer*

      When this happened to me, I did accept the offer of cake/gathering in the breakroom and that was nice. But the really nice things were when some coworkers came over to chat with me individually in the weeks before my last day and let me know that I was well thought of and would be missed. I can be chatty so I enjoyed that, but others might not. However, even a short conversation mentioning that you really enjoyed working with her and will miss her might be appreciated. Maybe a card if she’s not into good-bye conversations (I preferred convos over cards, myself).

  163. Sally Sparrow*

    My job has been exasperating my anxiety and depression in just the worst ways (which is a separate issue). Because of this occasionally I need to take one of my sick days to prevent a total breakdown – one every few months, about 3-5 (total) a year. I don’t say what they are for, just a general I’m not feeling well.

    However, my boss and one of my CWs seem to make a big deal out of it any time I take a sick day. They tell me not to breathe on them because I could get them sick and somewhat jokingly tell me to stay out of their offices.

    Short of just ignoring them – any ideas on the best way to handle this? I’m thinking of just claiming I get migraines since that will stop the line of questioning and isn’t contagious.

    1. SoCalHR*

      Could your response be a very objective statement like “there are tons of conditions that make you feel sick and that aren’t contagious” And hopefully they get the hint? Allergies, cycle-related, mental, chronic pain of any kind, IBS, headaches, ear aches, food poisoning, etc. etc. etc.

    2. WellRed*

      Ignore it or joke back. Or, is the joking making you more anxious? But otherwise, I see no need to make up a story when they aren’t even asking for details.

    3. Adele*

      Why bother? The joke is common and harmless. Do you need to spend time in their offices? If not, don’t worry about making up a fake illness to cover up the not-your-illness that people think you have. Plus, headaches can be very misunderstood and people who don’t have them sometimes think those who do are malingerers. Much better to think you have a delicate immune system and to prefer that you NOT come into the office.

      1. Sally Sparrow*

        Sorry, the problem is I have to work very closely with CW and my boss. So I have no choice but to spend time int heir offices.

        Obviously, I don’t think the joke is harmless otherwise I wouldn’t be asking about it. I mean it’s not funny to be treated like a leper.

        1. Jerry Vandesic*

          Since they have no right to the information, simply tell a small lie. Headache, toothache, asthma. Something simple that they will not feel threatened by.

    4. Jessi*

      “Oh” pause “You cant catch what i have”. Or

      “Hey I might be a bit oversensitive to this, but it really bothers me when you say that. Would you mind not saying that anymore? I wouldn’t come into work if I was contagious” You could even add “there are tons of things where one might need a sick day and not have a bug – like migraines ” Might misdirect them

  164. Asking for a Friend*

    I’m having a slight feeling of unfairness at work, but I’m not sure if I’m being overly sensitive or not. I apologize for how long-winded this got.

    I’m a Llama Groomer that shares my title with one other person. We both started at our llama company on the same day, so we’ve been here the same amount of time, had the same training, were assigned the same responsibilities, and are paid the same (despite experience differences, but that’s besides the point). We work under two Llama Wranglers and, as our work tends to ebb and flow, we all tend to have downtime. I don’t like being bored, so when I don’t have work, I go to the Wranglers and ask if there’s anything they need done and do that. If they don’t have anything, I go to other Llama people and ask if they need anything or just research new grooming techniques. My fellow groomer does not. He tends to just watch LlamaTube or do homework for his Alpaca farming degree.

    Recently, my wrangler boss told me that he’d like me to start doing some wrangling as well. More internal wrangling, but starting somewhere. I took this as a sign that my hard work was paying off and I was being given more responsibilities. But then my fellow groomer complained that he wanted to have more opportunities too and wanted to wrangle. So the wrangler boss’s response was to just assign us both to the beginner wrangling. Which also means that, as fellow groomer wants to spend more time wrangling, he’s pretty much blown off the grooming duties. And I feel like I’m having to spend more time grooming so we don’t fall behind and I don’t get time to really wrangle anymore.

    Is it wrong that I feel like I’ve been short-strawed because I didn’t complain enough? I’m feeling pretty overlooked now and not sure what to do about it. I’m afraid if I talk to my boss, it’ll just come off as whining.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      No, you’re not wrong. Do you have a separate Groomer Boss? If you tell Groomer Boss that you’ve been asked to do more wrangling, but you can’t keep up with the grooming because Other Groomer is no longer doing it, and ask for some help prioritizing things, will Groomer Boss put Other Groomer back in line, or will they pull you off the wrangling? (I’m assuming you like the wrangling and don’t want to stop.) Or, since Wrangler Boss chose you to wrangle, what would happen if you told him that you were having to cut back since Other Groomer wasn’t keeping up with his part of the grooming?

      I know you’re worried about being whiny, but this can work if you say “Other Groomer’s amount of productivity is causing this issue; what should I do about it?” instead of “Other Groomer isn’t doing enough grooming and I don’t like it.”

      1. Asking for a Friend*

        Your question wording makes sense. There’s no Groomer Boss. We, as groomers, work under the Wrangler Boss. And yeah, I’d rather do the wrangling, because that’s basically the next step up from grooming. But since Other Groomer complained about not getting as many opportunities, Wrangler Boss just started assigning us both to the wrangling. But I can see how your wording might help. Thanks.

  165. TheWanderingRabbit*

    Anyone have experience with a Master’s in Healthcare Administration/Healthcare Management? I have my bachelor’s in a humanities field, and currently work in the healthcare setting. I would love to go back to school and possibly pursue this field further. Any tips, stories or advice would be so appreciated!

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      I have a relative with a graduate degree in hospital administration. She is currently doing a year-long fellowship and loves it. She’s working in an area that really needed the help so they are basically letting her take the reins completely.

      I do think she found it helpful to have a bachelor’s degree in the hard sciences, but it’s not necessarily a requirement.

      1. TheWanderingRabbit*

        Thank you, this is helpful! I don’t have a science degree, but science has always been a love of mine and I tend to pick up hard science topics quickly. Sounds like it might make sense to do some refreshers if I wanted to go this route.

    2. Red Reader*

      What are you looking to end up doing in the long run? I’m in HIM as first-rung management with an MBA and an MPA (and I didn’t have them when I started in management). My boss only has an associates in HIM, the other two managers at her level have one associates and one bachelor’s in HIM between them. The directors above them, one has a bachelor’s in HIM and one has both a bachelor’s in HIM and a MHA. My experience in HIM departments, at least, is that for quite a ways up the org chart, it really is your experience rather than your education that drives your progress. My boss, with the associate’s only, also has something like 30 years of experience.

      1. TheWanderingRabbit*

        I think I’m still exploring! Do you see either your MBA or MPA being more helpful in your area of work? I’ve seriously considered a MPA before and wonder if this makes more sense because it is more broad. If I ever wanted to get out of healthcare I would still have options. Right now I seem to be more drawn to the hospital administration side of things, but would give some serious thought to HIM. Do you like what you do? And my experience in healthcare reflects yours, many of our admins do not have higher degrees but have been with our organization for dozens of years.

        1. Red Reader*

          My MBA program was fairly finance/quant heavy; I expect to get a lot more use out of the MPA. Point was though, I don’t actually need the masters degrees for anything for at least three more levels up the org chart. Looking this morning, our exec director also has “only” a bachelors. The VP above her has an MPA. So unless you really just like school (which is mostly why I did mine), I’d think hard about whether you really need it and whether it would actually offer any benefit.

          I love what I do; I’ve been in HIM for almost 15 years now and am actually working on a second bach (I told you I like school ;) ) in HIM (my first one was in public health, and the certification exam I want to take requires a bach in HIM specifically).

          1. TheWanderingRabbit*

            Excellent, thank you! I, like you, LOVE school so I’m planning on getting a Masters regardless. I was originally wanting to get my PhD. but life changed and I’m so glad it did, otherwise I never would’ve stumbled into healthcare. Just trying to figure out which degree makes the most sense for me. I have also thought about going back for a second bachelors in public health ironically…I have some good friends who work in public health and love it. I feel like I’m needing to play catch up though since I’m coming in with a history degree and not something in the sciences! Maybe I need to look into some certifications as well. I’m so glad you like what you do, and your comments have been very helpful! Sorry for my long brainstorming ramblings :)

  166. WorkerBea*

    Is this rude? I have a new co-worker who has both social and work related conversations not in English with other co-workers while I am also with them. I don’t speak their language. I find that in these situations, I feel like this is really rude as I can’t participate in the coversation. There are 4 of us, and I am the only person who speaks only English. Normally when I hear non-English conversations around me, I’m not bothered, but those are all times I am not part of the conversation or part of the group.

    For example, we (4 of us) will have lunch together, and he’ll started talking in his native language. Or he’ll come to our desks and start talking about work in his language. At first I thought he must be having personal conversations that had no relevance to me so I didn’t find it rude, but it turned out he was talking about work, sometimes asking questions. We all work on the same projects.

    He speaks English fluently and has been in the US for years. He went to school here. It’s not a matter of being uncomfortable with the language. I am used to people speaking in other languages around me everyday, but this is the first time I have ever felt someone was being rude. So I need a check from my fellow readers. Is what he is doing rude? I have never experienced this, and work mostly with foreign born people for mire than 10 years.

    1. Nita*

      Yes, this is rude. For what it’s worth, English is not my first language and I used to feel weird speaking English to someone I know also speaks my first language. Only it felt even more weird to leave others who only speak English out of the conversation, unless it was clearly a private one-on-one conversation.

      1. Camellia*

        Agree, this is rude and I work with many ESL people. I think you need to start politely saying, “Please speak English.” If you get any weird looks or push-back, remind them that the topic is work and you need to be able to participate.

      1. Natalie*

        Although it’s worth noting that (US) employers that are subject to civil rights law cannot prohibit their employees from speaking other languages in the workplace without a bona fide business reason.

    3. BRR*

      I think especially for work conversations it’s rude. Most of my coworkers are bilingual while I’m not. I figure whatever for personal conversations even if I’m there but I got over asking them to speak English.

    4. Thlayli*

      Yeah when you’re in a conversation with people it’s rude to speak in a language that not everyone understands. It would be different if one of them didn’t speak fluent English.

    5. Crylo Ren*

      Yes, it’s rude if he’s purposely speaking in his native language for work conversations that you should be a part of.

      Is this new person the only one to initiate the conversations in the non-English language? Maybe there is room here to chat separately with the other 2 coworkers to express your concerns and see if you can’t get them on your side. Maybe they could respond to him in English even if he is speaking in his native language to give him a hint that he should be including you. If nothing else, if the others respond in English that could at least help to give you an idea of what they’re talking about.

    6. Jerry Vandesic*

      There was an interesting article in the Washington Post last week looking at one of the few non-immigrant workers at a Pennsylvania chicken processing plant. One of the points was that the worker “often feels alienated and frustrated because of the language and cultural barriers between herself and her co-workers, most of whom are Latino and speak Spanish.”

      https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2018/07/30/feature/majority-minority-white-workers-at-this-pennsylvania-chicken-plant-now-struggle-to-fit-in/

  167. Friday*

    I just graduated a month ago with a biology degree. I’m considering several career options. Does anybody here work in GIS or regulatory affairs? Can you tell me what your job entails? What’s a regular day of work like? What do you like and dislike about your job? How did you get started on your career path? How much do you get paid (if you don’t mind me asking)? I think I want to do a year-long post-grad program in GIS, but I’m not really 100% confident, so I look forward to reading any comments!

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      I worked in state regulations at a state agency (from permitting side and compliance/enforcement side) for a few years. I have a bio/envsci degree and finished my MS in envsci during those years. I started as an intern with a state environmental agency just doing sampling.

      When I was a permit writer at State Agency, I was 100% in office. Business wear, on a computer in a cube. Hours were very regular. I enjoyed it because that agency had really good training, and I was allowed to work at my own pace. I was paid $38k if I remember correctly.

      I then moved to a compliance inspector position at the same agency. Same pay, same ranking, but hours were much more variable, I was travelling constantly. I did like seeing all the different industries & how they worked. But the travel got real old for me pretty quick. I also couldn’t work at my own pace. They forced me to do only very few inspections – because no one else had automated their inspection reports, so I was apparently working too fast.

      After that I moved to a county health department – inspections & permitting for state/county regulated entities. Pay was now $42k, but it was hell on earth because the department was so small, and it’s a huge, huge difference between Professional Public and General Public. As a state inspector, I worked with facilities. The individuals at the facilities were paid to be nice to me, in essence. No one was downright rude, maybe just a little terse. As a county health inspector, I worked with just an average person. I got yelled at a lot. Usually daily. Usually for some completely ridiculous reason that had nothing to do with me. I was in gross, dirty, unsafe places. I did not like it at all.

      I do regulatory compliance now at a private facility and make nearly double what I did at the health dept. No one yells at me. I do a mixture of report writing, interfacing with state/federal regulators, environmental sampling, project management, etc. I like that it keeps me busy, I have a lot of variety, and I have a lot of say to improve processes. I manage myself, and I like that too. I feel like I’m using my MS a lot more in this job as well.

      Hope that helps. I’m not GIS, but all I’ve really done (apart from a teaching stint) has been regulatory.

  168. Summer*

    I’ve gone back to school to do a master’s in an international setting and back in June accepted an unpaid internship for this fall. It’s supposed to start next week. However, without going into too many details, I’ve just found out that my financial situation has changed somewhat and that I will probably have to work during the fall semester to support myself (the country I’m in has strict rules on how many hours foreign students can work and I can’t do both). Should I tell the unpaid internship now? Wait until I get a job and then cross that bridge when it comes to it? Accept that I’ve committed myself to the unpaid internship and just live like a pauper for the next few months (doable after some number crunching but definitely getting close to the danger zone)? The internship is VERY relevant to my future career interests and I definitely don’t want to burn any bridges here, but it is also unlikely to directly lead to a job after I graduate and I do have to eat and pay rent for the next six months. Any advice would be appreciated!

    1. Almost Phinished*

      Does your school have a student support/counseling center? Or career services? They can be very helpful in providing guidance on how to navigate something like this. Sorry, don’t have better advice, but at my school I have heard of several cases where the counseling center gave the right advice in tricky situations.

      1. Summer*

        My school does, but career services is on vacation this week! I’ve been hearing a lot of different opinions from people I know personally so I was curious to hear what the community here said, but it might be best to wait and see what they say.

    2. OtterB*

      I second asking the school. Even if it’s an unpaid internship there might be some kind of stipend/scholarship available to help with financial support.

  169. AnonForThisPost*

    The store I work at for my weekend job (I also have a part-time job I work during the week) is closing in 2 months. (I’m taking it harder than I thought I would, but that’s probably gonna be talked about in tomorrow’s open thread).

    How should I address this in my cover letter & resume? Should I mention I won’t be available to work until mid-October? In my resume should I put something like “Teapot Maker, July 2010-Oct 2018” even though it isn’t Oct 2018 yet & just explain in the cover letter that the store is closing?

    1. SoCalHR*

      Is there a reason you can’t/don’t want to jump ship early if you get other work? I feel like that has to be understandable from an employer’s perspective – that some people may cut out early if they find other permanent employment (or did you make a commitment or have a bonus in place if you stay?)

      1. AnonForThisPost*

        I promised my boss at the store that I’d stay on (On top of the store closing, he has health problems & I feel bad for him), but I can always just work weekends instead of the schedule I originally said I’d work. I also work an additional part-time job where I can increase the hours I work, so I still have some form of income.

  170. Almost Phinished*

    Hey there – looking for some motivational “you go girl” and “you can do it” for this weekend. I am at the tail end of STEM PhD that I am have been working on while working full time for a few years. Got about 2months left including final defense. On my (hopefully!) final dissertation edits. The end seems so close but on other days so far away, esp. when committee/supervisor says “gotta tweak this eqn to account for the gap in your data” arrgh! Lol. So yes, given that many readers here are well familiarized with academia, I am hoping for empathy and motivation, pretty pls :)

    2. Rosemary7391*

      I can do a snap – I should be done in a couple months too! Just gotta keep putting one foot in front of t’other, or one more word after the previous…

      1. Almost Phinished*

        Oh gosh, then a 1000 cheers for you too! BEST of LUCK and perseverance. Love the “one word after the previous” attitude, will keep that motto too.

        1. Rosemary7391*

          The foot version got me up a coupla mountains – you can always take one more step no matter how tired you are – here’s hoping the word version will get us both through the PhD end zone! Love your username btw :)

    3. Overeducated*

      You’re sooooo close! Three months from now this will all be a memory. Possibly a blurry one if you aren’t getting much sleep or time to think. Keep plugging, this is the home stretch!

      1. Almost Phinished*

        Thx so much!!! You people are all so awesome and kind :) Sending positive vibes for whatever goals you are working on:)
        An aside – these comments are an even greater boost given some annoyances today with a few less than stellar, unfairly promoted co-workers. Ha! None of them will be PhDs in a few months (insert smug emoji).

    5. Vitamin C*

      You can do this! You’re so close! Soon all of this will be behind you!

      Also, a friend of mine who did a STEM PhD told me that the quality of her writing was directly proportional to the quality of the chocolate she was eating at the time. Something to consider if you eat chocolate!

  171. Overeducated*

    This is a quietly crying at my desk kind of week. Management has released a new plan for distribution of work and I am pretty unhappy with it. A lot of people are not happy, for very different reasons, but I have no poker face whatsoever so I had a heated discussion with a coworker at lunch over conflicts between our areas of unhappiness (both of our perspectives are both totally valid). I think I am not doing well at managing my emotions at work. Any tips on swallowing it, smiling, and acting like a professional? And how to raise issues with management in a way that doesn’t sound like “make me feel better or I’m leaving”? I think my boss is here before traveling for a week but I’m a little reluctant to try to discuss given my said lack of poker face.

    1. H.C.*

      If you do want to bring it up with your boss, wait until they return from the trip so you have more time to process through this change, and also time to plan out what you want to say without it being so raw & emotional. If it helps, draft an outline/script so you make sure you hit all the important points on how this new work plan negatively impact your functions and, if possible, the business’s bottom line (longer delays? more expenses? etc.)

      1. Overeducated*

        Thanks. Waiting was my instinct. My coworker also talked to me about the lunch thing and I think there is a way to work out a compromise around our specific overlapping concerns, so I feel a little better about that.

    2. Almost Phinished*

      I second H.C.’s advice. Always better to be cool as cucumber with a plan for discussion. As for the bad mood, when I am raging about something at work, I will usually go grab a coffee and go for a walk. Not sure if this is an option where you work (we have a cafe on site, and lots of walking space outside), but any way that you can physically remove yourself from your desk even for 10 mins of fresh air should do you good.

    3. Penguin*

      Would talking with a therapist or other mental health professional be an option for you? “I’m going through some rough stuff at work and need some help working on managing my emotions in a work setting” is totally something that a therapist or mental health social worker could help with!

  172. Batshua*

    Yesterday I was issued a warning for a request of formal admonishment for tardiness. They dinged me 15 minutes AWOL every time, even when I was two and four minutes late. Apparently I can appeal, but frankly, I’m not going to bother.

    Since it’s known that I am struggling to make ADHD medication work and then find the right dosage and we are nowhere near ready for that, and because HR’s idea of accomodation was tocondescendingly tell me how important it was to be on time and to tell me to be on time, I am looking into legal options.

    To circumvent my new biggest issue, the parking, I have asked my rheumatologist to consider giving me a placard. Several people have firmly suggested I might qualify, although I am unsure. Were I to get it, at least the parking nightmare would no longer be my problem.

    I’m really not concerned for the safety of my job right now; it might give me an unfairly shitty performance review score, but while I’m not superwoman (that’s my supervisor), I *am* a badass at my job. The fact that they are observing me regularly and don’t like how I do my job for the nitpickiest of reasons no longer concerns me.

    My greatest concern is not my performance evaluation or my job security. It’s being able to serve our patients to the best of my ability and be damn good at it. I’m certainly not perfect, but I’d say that despite lots of small things to keep track of, I do very very well.

    I am working hard on not caring what my boss thinks. It is not easy.

  173. JerryLarryTerryGary*

    So- does anyone actually use the kitchen work sponge on anything they eat? A brush? I don’t even use sponges at home, so maybe I’m biased, but…

    1. Havarti*

      Oh heck no. I use paper towels. Who knows where those sponges and scrub brushes have been. Ugh.

    2. Temperance*

      I’ve seen people in my office do it, and it disgusts me. I don’t like them at home, but I will use them under limited circumstances.

      I rinse and air dry my stuff at work, and then run through the diskwasher.

    4. blue canary*

      I do, but we have a very conscientious office manager and cleaning crew that keep things fresh, moreso than I do at home!

    5. Rusty Shackelford*

      Absolutely not. I wash drinkware with a clean paper towel. Anything else that needs to be washed just gets stuck in a plastic bag to be brought home. I will occasionally rinse and paper-towel-wipe a dish, but they always get washed at home.

    7. Yes to Sponges*

      Yes? What is the sponge there for?

      Granted, I work in a small office that also has a full-kitchen/dish washer, so I use the sponge for getting crusty things off and then stick items in the dish washer.

    8. Annie Moose*

      Ew ew ew absolutely not. I have no idea what other people in the office are using it for, how they’re cleaning it, how fresh it is, etc., and it just grosses me out. Sponges are delightful harbors of plague at the best of times; I can only imagine how awful the work one is, based on how well my coworkers can handle other tasks such as “pick up the trash that they threw toward the trash can but fell on the floor”, “wipe up the coffee they dripped on the counter”, and “move an extra foot to put their mug in the dishwasher instead of the sink”.

    9. Crylo Ren*

      We have a few different brushes so I do use them; I figure they’re circulated often enough that it doesn’t matter. Our cleaning crew and my coworkers are pretty conscientious so I’m not concerned about grossness.

    10. LilySparrow*

      I will use a brush or the scrubby side of a sponge to get anything sticky off the plate or scrub coffee stains out of a cup, but I still consider the dish “dirty” at that point. Then I do a proper wash with soap and hot water and rub with my hands. As long as the debris is gone, the hot water and soap are enough to get it clean.

  174. Courageous cat*

    Anyone who’s ever run an inventory system or set it up: any good resources to look into to learn more? I need to learn everything I can to add to my on-the-job experience (managing an inventory that’s already set up)

    1. Mariella*

      Oo, this is tricky. I think this depends if they already have a management software in place or not.

      If they already have one or strongly considering one, i would take a look at tutorials for the software first to get a better understanding of it’s limitations. Then start looking at articles on what it is you’d like to do with the current stock. Ie if you’re looking to slim down the stock, there are management companies that can be outsourced for this and often have very interesting articles/blogs on this.

      If its a completely new software, i would research some different types of software or if its able to be intergrated into the current erp systems etc. Identify a couple, and perhaps do a similar thing as above.

      Personally i use an inventory management system intergrated into my exsisting software, which i find very helpful. If i had to start with this new system, it would be to divide the items into catagories as the products where i work are in fixed price bands, which products need barcoding if any, & evaluate by turnover, warehouse space, if the products require in house work after arrival. (Which im sure you’ve already considered :))

      1. Courageous cat*

        They have nothing! Nothing at all. No sotware, and probably not anytime soon. The initial solution will likely be crude and maybe on Excel. If you have any thoughts on where you’d start with something like that, I’d appreciate it!

        1. Mariella*

          Oof! Ok so a bit tricky then.

          If the amount of products they have is low, id go for an Excel spreadsheet, with Sku, Sku description, sales, current stock, quantity ordered, supplier info and lead time, warehouse info such as warehouse location and maybe with a worksheet at the end with some calculations for reforecasting, profit margins, biggest sellers etc. It would be quite crude but get the job done.

          If its a large amount of SKUs or you would like to build up a more comprehensive data set, i would maybe take a look at Microsoft Access for building a more all round database. I believe you can set it up so each table of data can relate to each other so could show things like supplier due dates not being met etc. And have seperate tabs going down the side etc. I know its possible to do this in excel, but i think i prefer the format of Access as it has a more Software type user interface if you set it up like that. You can also import excel into access if that helps?

          I had a quick google for ‘access database for stock control’ and there were quite a few tutorials on it which seem quite informative.

          1. Courageous cat*

            Thank you for this!! Wow, I have a lot to learn, but this gives me a good place to start.

  175. zora*

    Our mid-size agency (300+ people) has just been acquired by a Global Holding Company. This only 2 years after the small agency I was hired by was acquired by the mid-size agency. So far leadership is saying all the right things and seem to be responding honestly to questions and concerns, but I have no context for this. I spent my whole career in nonprofits before this.

    I’d love any advice, red flags to watch for or stories from those who’ve been through something like this. Both good and bad appreciated.

    1 hand: The leadership, including my boss, are very excited about being able to add/move into additional areas and services, and some of those might be exactly what I am interested in moving into to transition out of admin. So, that could be really good for me.

    Other hand: Global Holding Company. And more bureaucracy and administrative complications and confusion than we already have (and I feel like we have a lot). So, I should be polishing up my resume and looking elsewhere for opportunities.

    1. AnotherAlison*

      Early in my career, I left a big firm for a small one. The big one had 3,000 people in my office, which was the HQ and an international presence. The company I moved to had about 200 people. They had been acquired about 7 years before, but they retained their name and operated much as they had before (limited bureaucracy).

      Well, after about 3 yrs there, the corporation shifted to a much more integrated approach and successfully tried to get all 20+ regional/division offices moving in the same direction and following similar methods, and a ton of things changed, including the leadership of my division (2x in 2 yrs). I thought I would hate it, because corporate-ness was a big factor in leaving my first company, but instead this was the best thing that ever happened. I like my company a lot, and I’m actually proud to work here. We’ve been very successful and had a lot of growth, and the corporate and division leadership seems to make really good decisions. (I also like it better than my first company, even though at this point I’m working for an even larger company).

      An independent 200 person firm doesn’t survive in my industry, and if they do, the employees individually have to scratch and claw to win work. I wouldn’t be happy somewhere like that. I feel like I got really lucky, so I would advise to hang in there for a while. There will be confusion while you try to implement new systems and integrate to the new company, but if the company overall looks like it is headed in a direction you want to go, stick with it until the dust settles.

      1. zora*

        AnotherAlison, this is so helpful, thank you so much!! There are a lot of mid-sized agencies in this industry, and we definitely haven’t been struggling. But it is good to know that there are bigger companies that are still functional and successful and positive for the employees. I have been very hesitant about larger corporations, so that in and of itself was worrying me. But this confirms that I should give it some time and not immediately assume this will be a bad thing. Thanks again!

  176. Triplestep*

    Update: Thanks again to everyone who responded to my post last week about an upcoming phone interview (I’ll post a link in the comments.) The interview went well and I was invited to meet face-to-face with the hiring manager who had conducted the call, and then some of his team members.

    But can I stop panicking now? No – no rest for over-thinkers!

    I felt I needed to tell the hiring manger that i had interviewed for a role on his peer’s team as recently as Jan 2017. I was planning to do this via e-mail once I had been invited back for a face-to-face, but the call to schedule that came less than 24 hours after the phone interview and before I’d even had a chance to write my thank you note! (I try to write them that night, but sometimes I am so wrung out by the interview, I need to do them the next day.) So I ended up mentioning it as part of my thank-you note. Not great, but I couldn’t write the note from the perceptive of “I hope I get a face-to-face interview with you.” it was already scheduled by then.

    He may have already known this since presumably they have access to previous applications. (That application didn’t get past phone interview). What I *didn’t* tell him is that someone his peer hired within the last year interviewed me for a role in another (similar) organization in 2013. I was a finalist back then, actually. She will not be on my panel interview, but someone who WILL be on it may remember me from college, and also from one of my many previous interviews at this organization. College was about 30 years ago (!) and the interview was about 10 years back. I have her frozen-in-time from a class we had together in which we butt heads during discussion – hopefully she does not have me frozen in time as well!

    So to recap:
    1. I casually wrote about my previous application as something that “seemed worth mentioning” in a note that was majority thank-you note. (Began and ended with “thank you note content”.)
    2. I am fearful that my knowing other people there – and the ways that I know them – will hurt me. (It highlights that I have lots of job interviewing experience and lots of rejection experience as well. Plus one of them was kind of a mean girl.)
    3. I am fearful that there are a bunch people there with first hand knowledge of my expertise in THEIR field and attempts I’ve made to work with them in that capacity. It is related but dissimilar enough to the role I am pursuing now that I would not want to be associated with it. (Think “Teapot Designer” vs “Teapot Production Manager”. I do both which is common in many places, but this place divides the functions.)

    Once again, good thoughts are welcome … crossed fingers, too!

  177. lost33*

    Has anybody been in this situation? I’m in the EU.

    I did a big part of my studies abroad, in several countries, but most of them in Germany. Now, after spending a few years working abroad I’m trying to find a job in Germany in business consulting. This results super difficult, although I speak fluent German and several other languages.

    In my home country, I’m one of the best. Good studies, good international work experience. In Germany I get plenty of rejections.

    The rejections don’t have to do with my applications. My CV and cover letter are good. I received feedback on them from several sources. But in the German consulting there are very few women and they prefer Germans. I hardly ever meet non-German and female consultants.

    I’m quite depressed already. I do have a job currently, but it’s toxic and I’m dying a bit every day I’m spending there.
    At the same time, I like German culture and I would love to stay here. I have more friends here than in my home country.

    Should I go back or stay? Finding a good job in my home country won’t be difficult for me, although I will earn about 50% less – the costs of living are 20% lower too. For me my work matters a lot. I’m quite ambitious and don’t like being underwhelmed.

    1. Nita*

      Maybe you can set a deadline. Let’s say, you’re going to try to land a job by the end of the year – if it doesn’t happen, you’re out of there and it’s their loss. Maybe you can try to break into the German market again in a few years, with more experience on your resume. It would probably help to keep up with whatever business connections you have in Germany now.

    2. SoCalHR*

      Can I just say I totally empathize with you. I’m from the US and wanted to get a job in Germany. Spent a few months there and got discouraged pretty quickly because I realized it would be really hard to just up and get a job with a US Passport (I think starting at a company here that could send me over there is the best way to make it work). Since you’re also in the EU, the work visa thing shouldn’t be a problem though. Anyway, sorry no real advice but I fully relate. Viel Glueck!

    3. Whatsinaname*

      I don’t know how old you are, but when I tried to get into a consulting job in Germany, I was basically made to understand that I was too old (mid-thirties). Also, who is checking your CV/cover letter? I’m American, also speak fluent German, and found that German CVs definitely had different norms than the US ones. Also, put some effort into the photo that goes with the resume. Unfortunately that can be a determining factor in whether your CV even makes it to the review process depending on the number of applicants. I know that to be a fact as I was involved in several hiring actions during my time there. Best of luck with whatever path you decide to take.

      1. lost33*

        I know German norms very well and as I say my application documents have been checked by several German specialists.

        The problem is more passing interviews and getting hired than just getting invited to interviews. When I get invited and meet other applicants I’m also normally the only woman and the only foreigner out of several (sometimes almost 10) people.

        I’m in my mid-thirties too, but I have worked in consulting before.

    1. Triplestep*

      Hmm … this was not supposed to end up here; must have neglected to click “reply” to my post above.

  179. IrishEm*

    I start my new job on Tuesday after the Bank Holiday! This is huge! Retail work usually takes places over the Bank Holidays but not this one! Woo!

    My jerk brain is being a jerk and turning new job nerves into “they’ll hate you, they’ll regret hiring you, you can’t do anything right etc.” Any advice on how to shut the jerk brain up? And any advice on how to make a good first impression? I already know the store manager from my interview, but not the rest of management.

    1. Havarti*

      Congratulations! Oh man, jerk brain sucks. Pretend it’s an obnoxious little kid? No one takes those seriously. “That’s nice, dear. Now go play with your toys.” You are awesome. Tell jerk brain I said so. For a good first impression, dress nicely, be friendly and smile. If hand shakes are a thing, practice doing them so they’re neither bone-crushing or limp. I’ve seen people get nervous and they start babbling about their fertility treatments or something so try to avoid that. And pay attention to your body language. You want to seem as confident and relaxed as possible even if you don’t feel it. Stand up straight, don’t wring your hands nervously. You got this!

      1. IrishEm*

        Thanks!

        I tend to be a gesticulator at the best of times, so I’ll be working on not fidgeting or hand wringing over the weekend. I may also be getting a housemate over the weekend, hopefully that will take my mind off the jerk brain and nerves.

  180. Kat in VA*

    Well, after the job offer compensation fiasco last Friday (applied for and interviewed for a job at a set hourly rate, only to be lowballed at the end), I got an email on Tuesday morning – after emailing and asking for an update – saying that they “tried” to get me to a higher rate but nope, we have other candidates who’ll take less money so go away, you greedy woman.

    In a fit of pique, I composed a (probably ill-advised) email to the executive I would have been mainly reported to, detailing in very factual and professional language the whole situation and the breakdown at the end. I wasn’t begging for the job, as I imagine it’s already been offered to one of those other cheaper candidates who have juuust as much experience but weren’t their #1 pick, or asking him to reconsider.

    More of a “Hey, this is what went down, and how it went down, and here’s my reasoning and why I didn’t take the initial and ONLY offer, and you’re probably already aware, but it kinda sucked and maybe you should tell your recruiters to be more transparent about your comp package so people don’t feel jacked over at the end of a very long interview process.”

    I sent it to him more as a catharsis than anything. Imagine my surprise when he replied, thanked me for the synopsis, informed me he’d just gotten back from a big conference, and that he would make inquiries and loop back with me.

    Is this unusual – for a hiring manager (C-suite) to be this ignorant of the hiring process? Did they just tell him, “Nah, she didn’t take the offer and gave us the finger, so we’re going with #2” and he was never given any more information than that? Is that how things work these days? I do know at my last job, my boss literally had no idea how much money they offered me or how much I was making, so maybe this is how things go these days in bigger companies?

    Of course, his reply email could have just been to assuage my feelings (Why? He’d never talk to me again), but I can’t help wondering if maybe he, himself, is a little confused why Recruiting is going with #2 and not the candidate whom he clearly chose (that would be ME). The one who was the “top candidate”, the one whom HE decided yes, after 7 weeks, this is the person that I want to work with!

    If nothing else, clearing up the situation with the head guy made me feel a little better about the whole mess. I may never hear back from him again, or I may get a non-apology and a “Good luck in your job search”, but at least I feel a wee bit vindicated that he was able to hear the story from start to finish about how I’d been misled throughout the entire process and that the person(s) who torpedoed my candidacy at the finish line was not ME!

    Onward and upward!

    1. CM*

      I could believe that the C-suite hiring manager didn’t really know what was going on. I don’t know if it will make a difference to the hiring decision, but at least I think his reply to you is a good sign that he’s actually taking the time to think about what you said.

      1. Kat in VA*

        I am reasonably certain that I torched myself with regard to HR/Recruiting since, quite honestly, I went over their heads to the actual boss. I don’t see a job offer materializing out of this, but if one does – I don’t hold the recruiting process against the company (and I do think it would be a cool place to work).

        Do C-suites just let Recruiting/HR handle the hiring of their EAs? The reason I ask is because it’s such a personal job and for it to be successful, in my opinion, you really REALLY have to have good energy between the two of you (as well as whoever else you’d support).

        It seems a little reckless to let other folks make a final decision on something like this. Now, him being at their big yearly conference definitely threw a wrench into things with availability on his end. That, and I have no idea what he was actually told with regard to me turning down the offer. I seriously doubt they’re going to say, “Yeah, we kinda strung her along letting her believe that we’d offer no lower than X amount and then we undercut that by 10% and she TOTALLY UNREASONABLY said nah…”

        I figured that even him reading it was a win for me, in an intangible fashion. To have him actually reply and say he was going to investigate made me super happy – even if I don’t get the job (and I’m 99% sure I won’t).

    2. Lissa*

      I love that you wrote the email! Like you said it could’ve been ill-advised but I think if you were professional, it can actually be really useful to lay everything out like that. And in this case it seemed like there’s a big possibility the exec actually wasn’t aware, so it seems here there’s more of good results than bad!

      1. Kat in VA*

        Thank you! Honestly? I was advised by damn near everyone NOT to do so (including OldBoss and others in hiring manager positions). In a situation like this, you’re supposed to work the problem, and not the emotion, but I was pretty pissed off to have been treated so poorly. I figured what was the harm in writing him? Either he knew about it, in which case, it’s not really a bridge burned because that’s awful.

        Fortunately, I have much practice in business correspondence and the art of stripping all emotion from fraught subjects (my typos here notwithstanding).

        And if BossMan didn’t know what happened, well…now he does, right? And maybe my sacrifice *music swells in the background* will save some other poor soul *tear rolls down cheek* from enduring the pain and suffering….*dramatic pause*….as I did. *thunderous applause*

        Then again, it’s pretty much end of day and I haven’t heard anything from him. :P

        1. Kat in VA*

          Speaking of bad writing, that sentence should say:

          “Either he knew about it, in which case, it’s not really a bridge burned because that’s awful. Or he didn’t know about it, in which case perhaps changes will come about?”

          I blame it on not having enough Red Bull today. ;)

      1. Amadeo*

        I wasn’t on the offical committe for the last round of hiring, but the group as a whole got to talk to the candidates and offer our input to the actual committee. The best stories out of that one was the guy who wouldn’t stop talking about all the amazing things he did while never once answering anybody’s questions and the the other one who brought samples including an ‘inspired by’ and the ‘inspiration’ that was basically a direct rip-off.

        I can’t wait to see what interesting things await me beyond these applications I’m reviewing.

  182. Tacocat*

    Does it look unprofessional to have headphones in for the majority of the day?
    If it matters, I have my own office and the door is open.

    1. Hixish*

      I don’t think so. If you were to keep them in when people came to your office, then sure.
      To me, headphones mean focus.

      1. Kat in VA*

        I use wireless earbuds that have the battery integrated into the earpiece – which apparently makes them look a lot like a bluetooth headset. I usually leave one side out, tucked into my collar, because I don’t like being startled and I don’t like making people repeat themselves when they talk to me (I have long hair that usually covers the earbuds).

        No one ever commented on it, except to ask what I was listening to, or, more often, ask if I was on the phone.

        “Nope, not on the phone, um, right now it’s Mozart!” Even though it might have been Mozart and now it’s Metallica’s “Master of Puppets”. *snort chuckle*

  183. Jennifer Thneed*

    I need to ask advice about dressing professionally. Below you will find some paragraphs of explanation and then (finally!) the actual question.

    My question really boils down to: do I have to wear synthetic fibers?

    Background: I dress casually by choice and have often been able to do the same at work. My preferred outfit is jeans and a long-sleeve t-shirt (striped or solid-color) and there have been plenty of places where that was fine. (Before anyone chokes, I’m not wearing fashion jeans: not artifically faded, no rips or tears, not tight. Just blue denim pants with 5 pockets, you know?) The last few jobs (=contracts) I’ve had, this style of dressing was fine. The last year or so I’ve been working from home a ton. But I’m heading into interview season and will probably be working in an office again and would like to appear a little more professional because I know it affects how my work is perceived.

    Usually in the past when I have had to dress more nicely (interviews, some jobs), I have worn khaki’s and a button-up shirt. There are some very attractive fabrics being used as shirting these days and I enjoy wearing them. But the khaki’s are seeming not so much the thing anymore. Cotton fabric just isn’t as dressy for pants as … as what?

    And there’s my problem. Once upon a time I thought “Well, I’ll just drop into Nordstrom and see what a pair of wool slacks would cost me.” OH MY. I don’t think anything was under $200. So now I am asking y’all: what are your clothes made of? For women who are wearing slacks, are they wool slacks? Are they rayon or polyester or other synthetic fibers? I really dislike how a lot of those feel on the skin. How are y’all handling this?

      1. The Ginger Ginger*

        I love linen, but man is it hard to keep looking sharp and pressed. Every bit of linen I have ever owned has been a wrinkle magnet. If someone could solve this problem, they could have all my money.

    2. It happens*

      Natural fiber girl here. Some random thoughts for you-
      Look at Nordstrom Rack instead of regular Nordstrom for wool slacks.
      Boden has a sale right now on summer cotton khakis.
      Also, (wool or cotton) ponte is the new thing (not my thing, but definitely a popular thing)- kinda like double-knit fabric.
      And, Amazon’s new Lark & Ro clothing line has a whole wear-to-work pants section…
      I wish you good shopping!

    3. Hixish*

      Hi!
      I have a polyester allergy, so it’s hard for me to find clothes that don’t have any. Old Navy has pants I think you’ll like though. They’re pretty much different colored khakis and if you wore your regular outfit with a cardigan, it would look more business like (it’s literally what I wear as a first contact at my university). I hope this helps!
      (https://oldnavy.gap.com/browse/category.do?cid=5475&mlink=5151,13518818,flyout_w_Pants&clink=13518818)

      That’s the link to take you directly to the pants!

      1. Kat_Map*

        I would also vouch for these Old Navy slacks. I have a pair and they’re my favourite work pant. They’re really soft and super comfortable.

      2. AeroEngineer*

        Yea, Old Navy has a good assortment of work pants, and even in tall (if you need that like I do). Banana Republic is I think also owned by the same company now (as well as Gap), and I have been successful at finding workpants at all three depending on what exactly I was looking for and the season.

        Eddie Bauer sometimes has some nice pants. I actually have a really nice wool skirt from them as well, but their selection can be really hit or miss depending on the season and what they actually decide to produce.

    4. The Ginger Ginger*

      I’m with you on hating synthetic fibers, but one synth fiber is not necessarily like another. I usually look for the crinkle factor or that plastic feeling that happens when you rub a super cheap synthetic between your fingers – Those 100% are no goes for me. I pretty much nix polyester out of hand.

      Have you tried blends though? A wool blend, or a cotton/rayon blend especially? Those can feel really nice, and are often easier to care for than 100% natural fiber. If you look for blends with higher percentages on the side of the natural fiber, you may have more luck (and lower prices)

      With slacks or skirts with a lining, it’s the lining that’s the real issue. A wool skirt with a polyester lining is worse than useless :/ But in those cases, you can buy the item, and pay to have the lining replaced.

    5. AnotherAlison*

      In the cold months, could you do silk tights or longjohns (whichever is actually A Thing) under synthetic pants & be comfortable, if it’s the feel on your skin that you dislike? I have one pair of wool pants, & I’m pretty sure they have synthetic liner. My other pants are all some synthetic blend, but some are nicer than others. I’d stay away from the lower cost ones at the fast fashion stores and go for the ~$80 ones from Express. They have some heavier fabrics that I like (maybe only in winter–I’m not a frequent shopper.) I think a casual cotton look is more forgiven in summer at many offices.

      1. Jennifer Thneed*

        Absolutely there are! I was thinking in terms of slacks that are part of a suit, and I know that a good suit lasts longer than a crappy one, and … and I worked near a Nordie, and I knew I could find someone to ask questions of, and I just felt so lost. And still do.

        And in answer to other folks, I was totally unclear about the synthetics. It’s about how it looks, not how it feels. I keep seeing work clothes for women that are made out of thin fabric and they look more like dress-up clothes than work clothes.

        I guess what I’m looking for is the female equivalent of what men normally wear? I’m not butch at all, I’m just super un-girly. So what are men’s clothes made of? (Oh, and I’m in the SF Bay Area and next to the water, so we’re never very cold or hot here.) When men wear slacks, are they always part of a suit? If not, where can I get pants like those? (It’s truly never going to be a skirt, for me. I got married in a dress, and so did my wife. But for work-clothes? PANTS PLEASE.)

      2. Lady Kelvin*

        Seconding this. Nordstrom is only a step down from Chanel and Gucci in my book in terms of price. I got nice wool dress pants from Banana Repbulic for ~$60 (on sale, regular price they were $100). I’m definitely the type of person to still be wearing the clothes I picked up from SalVal 10 years later, so that was a huge splurge for me. And the first time I’d shopped in Banana Republic. And the first time I found petite pants that were a good length and weren’t way too wide (somehow I find petite clothes are made for people who are short and curvy, finding petite clothes for people who are short and skinny has been a challenge).

    7. Nita*

      For tops, just natural fabrics – they don’t seem to wrinkle too much. For slacks, I prefer cotton with a little bit of synthetics added in. It seems to be enough to keep them from wrinkling (though they do need ironing after washing, or spending some time in the back of a drawer). And for skirts, I care more about the look than the fabric, because I’ll usually wear them with stockings so I don’t get that polyester-on-skin feeling anyway.

    8. Kathenus*

      Not sure if these would work for your organization’s culture or not, but I work somewhere where many of the jobs are outdoor and/or active, mixed in with office folks and those who do a combo of both. I’ve come to really love the hiking pants from REI, Columbia, and Eddie Bauer. They can be a bit pricey, not $200 but in the $60-90 range, but they are so comfortable, cool, and look good with lots of types of tops.

      1. It's Pronounced Bruce*

        Oh yeah, I also do this. I have a lot of clothing from Eddie Bauer and Land’s End and people are always surprised that I have nice-looking workwear from notoriously frumpy places heh, but them performance fabrics are great even if you’re just in an office.

    9. It's Pronounced Bruce*

      Once upon a time I tried to invest in better fabrics, and nowadays doing that is so heinously expensive and the quality is so extremely low that I’ve just said eff it and dove deep into fast fashion for all occasions. Screw it. They’re only slightly less durable than the stuff that costs exponentially more and the fibers are all synthetic anyway, but that makes my laundry easier.

      FWIW, I buy all my nice workwear (especially things like pants) during December and February when things go on deep discount and promo codes are rampant. I go to the websites of brands I like and just go to the sale and clearance section and try to make scores. I have a ton of very nice things that were very inexpensive. Earlier this year I got a mid-calf length 800 fill down coat with a waterproof outer layer for something like $65, and that’s pretty par for the course. Pants will never be outrageously cheap (what’s up with THAT) but at the very least you can go under $100 a dang pair for some nicer fabrics.

    10. Hellanon*

      Talbots, Lands End, and LLBean all offer work-friendly options in natural fibers – a good choice might be pants in wool or cotton plus a sleeveless top and cardigan. They also do a variety of cuts and styles on the tops.

      Another suggestion is JJill, which is a bit more casual but still work-friendly. I’ve had things from all these companies & they wear really well…

    11. Kat in VA*

      Also, if you’re someone who likes sifting through things, local thrift and consignment shops can be absolute GOLD MINES for professional wear that doesn’t cost an arm and a leg. And since the clothes tend to be from past seasons (and sometimes a lot older than that), you can find really well-made, classic items from higher-end brands for a fraction of the cost.

      My favorite full-length wool/cashmere topper coat was probably made in the late 60s. It stung a tiny bit having to buy a bigger size as everything was cut smaller then (I wear a size 8 in shirts/coats, and this coat is a 16…ouch) but it is beautifully made and will probably last longer than I do on this planet. Price? TWELVE WHOLE DOLLARS.

      Checking out thrift shops in higher cost-of-living areas can definitely yield some treasures, as *ahem* more well-heeled folks often turn over their wardrobes faster than us “regular” folk…who tend to hang onto things until they disintegrate (I’m speaking of myself here).

      I once found a 100% wool Brooks Brothers suit (I’m a woman) in a mismatched size that I wear (8 on top, 4 on bottom) with no holes, no damage, and no wear…for $25.00 at a Goodwill in the DC metro area. Sadly, the moths got to it (I finally got cedar hangers, derp) but it was definitely a score!

  184. Detective Amy Santiago*

    Tell me about Trello and Asana and other project management type apps. I’m in a group of five people who manage a hobby group and it just occurred to me reading through the comments on this post that we might be able to make use of this to keep ourselves organized.

    Something that has a free version please :)

    1. Jillociraptor*

      I’ve used both Trello and Asana and like both. I’m sure both can be used for a ton of different kinds of projects, but I’ve found Trello more useful for managing processes and Asana more useful for managing tasks or projects. We use Trello to track our hiring process and development plan, for example. I’ve also used it in the past to design content for a toolkit. The draw for me in Trello is being able to easily visualize where each item is in the process and quickly identify what needs follow up or next steps. I’ve used Asana to manage daily to-dos and more linear projects like events. It works really well as kind of a checklist, but less well when a single item may have multiple steps. We check in on our Trello board as part of our weekly development meeting (actually it guides about half of the meeting!), and I would definitely recommend doing this with whatever system you end up using. It adds accountability for using the system and keeps individual work aligned to collective priorities.

      I’m also super intrigued by Airtable, but I haven’t really figured out how to make use of its additional features. I think I’d just use it like Asana or Trello.

    2. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      I’ve used Trello to track a bunch of my personal projects*, and similar kanban-style boards at work to track team projects. (I haven’t used Asana.)

      The thing I like about Trello and similar tools is that you can see where everything is in the process. So at work, our columns will be things like Backlog, In Progress, Ready To Test, Testing, and Ready for Production. Sometimes cards will move backwards (In Progress to Backlog, or Testing to In Progress) if there are issues.

      For my personal boards, I set up the columns based on the project. A conference talk I gave earlier this summer had To Do, In Progress, and Done. My knitting-and-crocheting board has Planned Projects, Stitching in Progress, Finishing Needed, and Completed Projects.

      The first thing to note is that the cards won’t move themselves – you (can mean you as an individual, or you as in the whole team collectively) is to remember to move them to the appropriate columns. The second thing to note is that being able to assign a person (or people) to a card to track who is working on it is almost as important as where the card is in the process. Labels and due dates can likewise be helpful in providing information at a glance.

      *Note to self – update the craft Trello board.

    3. Penguin*

      Airtable is another freely-available kanban-style app you might look at!
      For project-management specifically (which might or might not be quite what you want) Essential PIM, Trichord, and 2-plan are all programs with free versions you could try.

  185. Fabulous*

    I found out yesterday that my promotion, which was supposed to happen this summer, has been delayed by at least 6 months because of company restructuring and cutting costs.

    They’ve already cut a number of roles so as to reduce redundancies, so I guess I should feel thankful that I’m still around, but I’m still disappointed that I’ll only be getting a regular merit raise next month rather than the full promotion and new pay scale.

    I’ve been severely underpaid for several years (think mid-30’s, been in the workforce for 10+ years, mostly in a corporate environment in consistently progressing roles but not management, and still have yet to see a $40,000 salary) so I was really excited to potentially double my salary – especially since I’m planning a wedding and have a kid on the way to boot.

    My boss says I won’t be disappointed with my raise this year, but I guess we’ll see. I’ll find out the final number in a couple weeks…

    2. Jerry Vandesic*

      Have you considered looking around for a new job, maybe casually? A company shows their colors by how they act, not what they say. If they aren’t treating you well, look to the market to see if there is something better out there. In today’s job market, moving can sometimes be the best way to get paid what you are worth.

  186. Hixish*

    Is it wrong to care about your job and try to make it better? I ask because I work for a university. We’re a site located in a city near the main university, but about 45 minutes away. Our campus is convenient for a lot of students in this area who happen to be non-traditional students. I want this place to look good – to look like a university and to look like we care.
    We have 12 full time employees and I’m the new hire (about 9 months ago) and I have ideas! But every coworker I have says our boss and his boss doesn’t care so nothing’s going to change. And so now, the coworkers don’t care.
    For example: We hosted another college and an area in my department wrote “Counselor’s Lunch” when it should’ve been “Counselors” – it’s small but significant ESPECIALLY when hosting another educational institute. Nope. I told ‘Carrie’ who was in charge and she said “I don’t care.” I told my boss that security has no idea what’s happening in the building and neither do I (“Admin” doesn’t tell anyone what’s happening until after it happens/while it’s happening – I’m the main switchboard, I need to know what’s happening). My boss’s response: “I don’t care”.
    We had a crew in here rehanging items that were removed during reconstruction. I asked if I could get them to straighten up a frame in our area. Boss says no. When asked why, because it was weird to deny that, he said “because I said so.”
    Whenever I want to do anything, the coworkers tell me to stop because it’s either not my job area – so “not my circus not my monkeys” is what they tell me all the time. If you have an idea for a different area (say, ideas to update bulletin boards which is someone else’s job), my coworkers say that the higher ups will either make it my job or say they don’t want it. If they make it my job, they’ll say I volunteered my ideas, therefore I volunteered my time and am not going to get a raise.
    I was sexually harassed (me and my assistant) by another university employee and when I told my boss, he said “go back to what you were talking about with the IDs.” That was his response word for word. He completely ignored me.

    What do I do? I have a boss that doesn’t care about his job or his employees. I have coworkers who’ve been here for 20+ years and are just… defeated.

    1. Havarti*

      No, it is not wrong to care about your job and try to make it better. What you do is you get out as quickly as possible because you cannot fix this single-handedly. And since no one else cares, you’re not going to get help. Also, to heck with your boss. Find out who you can report the sexual harassment to! So either stay and learn to not care or get out ASAP. I vote for get out. Find a place where people do care. Good luck!

      1. Jerry Vandesic*

        Talk to a lawyer. Tomorrow. Document everything. Save copies of emails and other communications.

    3. WellRed*

      Well the job is not going to change. Also, I am sure your boss is a big problem, but your coworkers are also a drag and I wouldn’t say it’s morale. As to the sexual harassment, you are a university. Report it to HR.

    4. Temperance*

      Your coworkers are right. I wouldn’t make suggestions that you aren’t prepared to follow through, and stuff like bulletin boards and making things look “nice” isn’t something that matters on a career path.

    5. Friday afternoon fever*

      I think you should reframe “Is it _wrong_ to care about your job?” and ask yourself some more specific questions about qualities of your job that matter to you:

      Is it _good for my mental health, motivation, and sense of fulfilllment_ to care about my job?

      Is it _valued by my coworkers and managers?

      Is it _important to me?

      etc.

      Also, if your coworkers are responding to your suggestions with “It’s not your job,” genuinely and open-mindedly interrogate what you’re suggesting. Your coworkers and your boss may be checked out and uninterested in improving, or you may be overstepping a bit. It sounds like you might be, depending on your job description. So you should also unpack what “caring about your job” means to you and how it translates into actions.

      But also, yeah, if you feel comfortable, escalate the sexual harassment above your boss, who is a jerk.

    6. AeroEngineer*

      Blegh. This sounds like my workplace. I tried to care, but it burned me out so fast that now I am just trying to get out and throwing applications left and right. Management at my place is also not very effective, if effective at all, and we also have the long term employees which have no motivation.

      Based on your boss’s attitude, save yourself and find an environment which actually values you and your passion. This is way more than just morale, it is dysfunction at every level. Don’t mentally and perhaps physically damage yourself trying to change what can not be changed.

      Escalate the sexual harassment if you feel able, as that is completely unacceptable.

  187. Aphrodite*

    Yesterday, I was blown away (again) by my boss–who is without question the greatest, most wonderful, most considerate, most supportive boss I have ever had in a lifetime of working. If I could crown him king I would. (I could also easily fall in love with the man he is but that is not going to happen on either of our parts and I rarely think about it. It’s just that he’s such a great person!)

    Ken, I adore you and I nominate you to be the Boss of the Century. I am so fortunate to work with you. (He won’t see this but he doesn’t need to; I let him know regularly how much I love working with him.)

  188. Kat_Map*

    I’m curious what the community thinks about this. It’s mundane, but I’m still curious about it.
    Earlier this week a part-time colleague submitted her final report and bid her adieu in an email sent to 5 people. She’s a student and we all knew that she wouldn’t be with the organization much longer.
    I replied to her, wishing her well, that it was a delight working with her, etc… A short while later 2 other folks also expressed their well-wishes but both those replies were ‘reply-all’ replies. One of them actually went to far as to suggesting they meet up for coffee and x location at a specific time. When I replied it was just to the original sender.
    I usually avoid ‘reply-all’ unless it’s obviously required, and I don’t feel like the rest of the group needed in on my well-wishes, however I’m also left feeling like I come off as cold for not publicly wishing her well. Where do you stand?

    1. Triplestep*

      I’m with you – I feel that those public responses are done partly so people can “get credit” for the well-wishes. They could just as easily have hit “reply” and made their sentiments private. I wish I could say we don’t come off as cold for not issuing a public response, but we probably do.

    3. Persimmons*

      I think it’s good for very-high-ups to reply all when they’re offering kudos to the leaving person. Praise in public, and all that.

      For peers, I think private is more appropriate.

      1. Kat_Map*

        This is actually really consistent with what happened. She and I were on the same level in terms of the tasks we collaborated on, while those who hit reply-all were higher up.

      2. The New Wanderer*

        I agree with Persimmons, and I also had two other thoughts. One was that without Reply-All, it wasn’t clear if anyone had emailed back/acknowledged the good-bye email, so someone hit Reply-All to make sure that everyone knew it had been acknowledged in some way (not to get credit themselves, necessarily, more like acting as a just-in-case group representative by responding publicly).

        I also thought maybe the person suggesting a meet-up did Reply-All so it wouldn’t seem like a more personal invitation than it was (aka definitely not a private invitation), and also implicitly open the invitation to others who might want to do that too.

  189. anon30sworker*

    I’m thinking about the next 6-10 years of my career and trying to plan for how to advance. I’m early 30’s, female, can do a range of work in project coordination/communications/events. Have been in work force for about 6 years (as I went to college in my late 20’s). I go through phases of being frustrated with my salary (decent mid 50s) in a very high COL city, but unless I made a giant career shift, or explored private sector (which I have recently, and seems like there wouldn’t be much of a bump) there’s not much I can do here. Wishing I had known more about what types of work would provide me with the remuneration I really want/need to exist here. Also feeling this hard at the moment as the men I know all earn at least double, if not quadruple my salary. Feeling like I set my own self up for this inequality given what I studied at college. Trying not to be too hard on myself, I really didn’t know or have anyone in my life then that could offer strategic advice back then. I keep thinking at least I can provide for myself, which is a pretty big deal given my upbringing.

    I guess the question is: has anyone doubled their earning potential in 5-10 years? If so, how did you do it? Any advice?

    1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      I think you need to take a hard look at what you want to be at salary wise and if your current profession/industry/career will support that. You’ll need to evaluate this in the short, mid, and long term. You mentioned that you’ve looked at the private sector but don’t see much of a bump, but is that for your current level? What do future levels look like? If you are in a career where people max out at $X, but a similar career in the private sector max at $X*5, then it might make sense to take the side step now.

      If yes, then you need to look at advancement within your area and what you’ll need to do to prepare for it. Talk to people in those positions and ask them what they think you’d need to advance.

      If no, then you need to figure out what skills you have that are transferable to other professions/industry/career that will pay what your goal is. This one is going to be a little more difficult because you may need to get some outside help figuring out what will transfer and what won’t.

      The other thing to do is make sure you’re comparing apples to apples. You say you got a later start, that does usually mean that you will be behind similar aged peers, in that they have had more time to build up the salary. Also make sure your apples and oranges comparisons are realistic. Yes you know people who make double than you, I’m sure they have very different careers than you do. I mean I’m pretty happy with my salary right up until I hear on the news about Actor Bob or Athlete Jane who just signed an $80m contract. Suddenly I’m a pauper in comparison. I’m not going to make as much as some people, but I will make more than others. That being said, I don’t buy into the whole poverty=nobility thing. You can do a lot of good in the world if you can feed/house/and clothe yourself comfortably.

      1. anon30sworker*

        Thank you for this – these are really good points. You are correct in that a lateral move to private now would be similar, but I hadn’t thought to compare the max in 10 years. It may actually be worthwhile to do a move in the next year or so to private. I really appreciate your thoughts!

    2. AnotherAlison*

      I doubled within the 5-10 year range, but that was from my starting salary out of college. I’m 18 yrs out of school & have tripled my starting salary, but I don’t think much I have to say would apply because this is what’s expected with my educational and experience background.

      However, the rumor is getting into sales can give you a big boost. I worked with a guy here who was able to go from a post-military job in HR to business development coordinator to BD manager to taking a regional territory manager job with another company. I don’t know his specifics, but he was probably triple in a 5 yr time frame.

      I would advise to target the type of job that makes the money you want, move laterally to a company that has that type of job by taking a role similar to your current one, then getting the training/connections/experience to get on the track to get to that new type of job.

    3. Thlayli*

      The answer seems obvious. You know loads of men in well paid jobs so you already know what industries and roles are well-paid in your city. Try to come up with a plan to transition into one of those roles / industries.

      1. Anon30sworker*

        When you put it that way, it does seem obvious. However, I wouldn’t be qualified to enter those fields without going back to school and getting another degree (which means going into debt, and at that point I’d be 10+ years behind my peers). This is not a particularly viable option.

  190. Forking great username*

    I had a job interview on Monday, and last night realized that I screwed up and somehow completely forgot to send a thank you note. I immediately sent them out, a different one to each member of the interview panel (well, not immediately, I literally realized this as I was about to fall asleep at 1am, so I set them up to send at a more reasonable hour.) But I’m beating myself up a bit about it being 4 days after the fact. Considered apologizing for the delay in the e-mails, but decided against it. Hopefully that was an okay decision.

    1. Catwoman*

      I think you’re being too hard on yourself. If your emails are individualized and well-written then I think this will come across more as you taking the time to digest the interview and personalize the emails rather than forgetting about them. I think as long as you sent them before your received more communication back from the interviewer then you’re good.

  191. Looking for Insight*

    A friend of mine received an informal job offer by email earlier this week. A few hours later, she received another email saying that two more interviews for the position had been scheduled for this week (by the supervisor of the person she’d interviewed with) and that those interviews had to be completed before she could receive a formal offer. It seems like requiring these interviews is all part of the normal hiring process, and that the person she’d interviewed with had acted too quickly by sending her the offer. My friend responded to the email rescinding the offer by asking if he could clarify whether or not the additional interviews were just a formality since she had already let her landlord know she’d be moving out due to her new job. He hasn’t yet replied to that email, and part of me thinks he’s holding off on responding at all until he can send her a formal offer, but another part of me thinks she shouldn’t have asked for that info about the other interviews and that it might have hurt her chances of getting the job after all.

    It seems like both parties here kind of jumped the gun…I guess I’m just looking for an outside perspective on how you think this exchange might’ve impacted her odds of getting the job. I feel like it’s still her’s to lose since they were willing to make her the initial offer, but I’ve never been in an HR/hiring manager position so I don’t have that perspective!

    1. LadyByTheLake*

      Never take any actions until a final, written, agreed job offer is in your hands and has been accepted.
      Never take any actions until a final, written, agreed job offer is in your hands and has been accepted.
      Never take any actions until a final, written, agreed job offer is in your hands and has been accepted.
      Never take any actions until a final, written, agreed job offer is in your hands and has been accepted.
      Never take any actions until a final, written, agreed job offer is in your hands and has been accepted.
      Repeat.

    2. CM*

      I agree with you that both parties jumped the gun. It was a jerk move to make an offer and saying they’re actually still interviewing other people. But your friend should have really made sure the offer was formally accepted before making major life changes, and I don’t think it helps her to say she already told her landlord she was moving — it might make the interviewer feel bad, but I don’t think it will change anything. And it’s possible her email could make her look like she is a little desperate or doesn’t have great judgment.

      1. Kat in VA*

        That happened during my saga as well. I was told verbally they were making me an offer, then told via email a few days later that – oops! – they had more interviews to conduct AFTER they told me they were making me an offer. Then…you know the rest. ;)

  192. LQ*

    My promotion is pretty much on hold until after the election this fall. (And likely until February or so thereafter.) It’s a bit to protect me and my role long term here, which I appreciate. But I also wish I wasn’t in a spot that required making sure I’m not on someone’s attack first radar.

  193. newjobandsick*

    So, if you were a month into a new job and came down with hand foot and mouth disease and had to take a whole week off on doctor’s orders for recovery ….. would you tell new job what you came down with, or just be vague? So far I’ve just been vague and my manager has been fantastic. However, I’m thinking about what to say when I go in next week. I’m sure my coworkers will ask what was wrong/what I had/why I was sick. Do I tell them or is it too gross? Also, if anyone else out there has this – my greatest sympathies. It’s the worst but I promise there is a light at the end of the tunnel. You will get better!

    Also, I don’t technically have any sick time accrued … I’m curious to see how this plays out. Not sure if taking time off without pay is better than new job being awesome and letting it slide. I say this because I’m hoping to go on holiday in the fall, and not sure if I’d be comfortable asking if they’ve already been so generous with sick time. For this reason, I’m tempted to say what I came down with so it’s obvious there was no way to avoid this rando disease.

    1. Forking great username*

      I would just tell them – your coworkers and boss will surely appreciate that you didn’t risk spreading it around the office!

      1. newjobandsick*

        Good point. I would HATE it if I found out I picked this up from someone in the office!!! They’d probably be more grateful that I didn’t come in. I think my worry was by being evasive it would seem like I was just out having a lark in the summertime.

    2. CM*

      I don’t think it’s too gross. Either people will know what it is and be sympathetic, or they won’t know and you can give a vague explanation like “It affects the skin and is highly contagious, so I had to be out for a while.”

      1. newjobandsick*

        Thanks for this – I had heard of it offhand from my friend with toddlers, but I had no idea you get the worst sore throat (and mouth sores!!!), fever and chills you’ve ever experienced on top of the rando rash. I like this vague explanation — I don’t want to seem evasive, but too much detail is maybe squicky.

    3. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Yeah I’d make sure at least my boss knew it was something highly contagious, if you’re ok with sharing with your boss I would name it specifically, if not just vague is ok. With coworkers I’d probably go light…

      Fergus: Hey good to see you back Newjobandsick, we thought we’d run you out of here with all the craziness (Yes this would be a worry at my company).

      Newjobandsick: Hahaha… no worries there. Trust me I’d have rather been here. I managed to pick up a contagious grunge, and thought staying home would be best till it was noncommunicable… I don’t fancy trying to live down a ‘Typhoid Mary’ nickname in my first month. Oh hey, while you’re hear, I was looking through that report you sent me, is that something I work with Bob on?

    4. Susan K*

      I don’t think anyone would be particularly grossed out to hear that you had hand, foot, and mouth disease (it’s mainly gastrointestinal illnesses that shouldn’t be discussed), so you can tell people if you want to. If you would rather keep it private, though, you can say that you were severely ill with a highly contagious illness and you stayed home under doctor’s orders to avoid getting anyone else sick. I think people will be more understanding, and maybe grateful, if you mention the contagiousness.

      I had never heard of this until a coworker got it last year, and it sounded horrible. He said it was the worst he has ever felt in his life, and he had to go to the hospital. I definitely have sympathy for anyone with the misfortune of catching it. Glad you’re feeling better now!

      1. newjobandsick*

        Thank you so much! I luckily didn’t have to go to the hospital, but it was pretty bad. The mouth sores are excruciating. I’ve had a bad string of health luck lately so this one felt like a pretty low blow, especially since it’s only supposed to affect children. I am on the mend though, and just so grateful it happened a month in, instead of like one week in. At least I’ve proven myself a bit at this point.

    5. newjobandsick*

      New question- would you choose leave without pay if you could technically afford it, or going into a deficit with yet to be earned sick leave? I’m torn.

    6. LilySparrow*

      Just say it’s a virus. The doctor said to stay home for x days to be sure you weren’t contagious.

      Hand foot & mouth is really, really common but yeah, it’s gross. And people without kids (or who didn’t have their kids in group care/preschool) have no idea how common it is or how easily it spreads.

      Everybody is familiar with viruses going around.

  194. Anonymous for this*

    Got an email about a previous employment test I had taken for a government customer service type job. I kind of felt like I had blown at least one answer, but the results said I received a “Superior” rating. (But then elsewhere in the email it, I said that I was receiving the notice because I had received at least a passing grade and was still being held in consideration for the job.) Now I just have to wait until the gov’ mint gets its shit together and goes to the next step.

  195. Book Badger*

    Well, I took the bar exam! So now my job search that’s been on hold while I prepped is starting up again.

    And of course, in the time it took me to prep for the bar exam, a bunch of opportunities opened and closed very quickly. And so many jobs require experience I don’t have, fluency in a language I don’t speak, or won’t actually start for another year. I’m applying but I’m also super frustrated and wondering if I made the right decision to go into public interest/immigration law.

    1. CM*

      Congratulations on getting through the bar exam! Your job search sounds frustrating but I hope something comes through for you — if opportunities opened and closed very quickly during your prep time, it seems likely that will continue to happen now that you’re done, right? Public interest immigration law is such an important area, I wish you the best.

  196. MeowYorker*

    Hoping I’ll still get some responses… A 3-week vacation request from a department of one – yay or nay?

    I’m a manager in a small company. My direct report wants to take 3 weeks off in September to go on vacation. A part of those days off would be unpaid. A big part of me wants him to be able to take the 3 weeks off for a bunch of reasons (he’s a great worker, super-reliable and conscientious, and he’s had a long stretch of life suckiness and is finally in a good place where something like this is possible, which makes me happy). My problem: There’s no one else to cover for him but me for these 3 weeks. I’ve covered for him for his past vacations, but they were 1-week vacations (i.e., 2 weekends plus 1 workweek), which I could manage. However, I think my job would suffer significantly if I had to cover for him for 3 weeks.

    There’s a possibility to ask my boss to direct someone else in a completely different area of responsibility to cover a part of my report’s functions. This would lessen my load. However, it’ll be a bit difficult, because we are understaffed everywhere. We’d need to train that temporary help, too. It also feels wrong to deny his request when a whole bunch of people have been taking 2-, 3- and 4-week vacations this summer. These people are in departments where multiple people hold the same positions, so it’s less of a problem. (Does this make me jealous? You bet. The longest I can wing is 1 week for my own vacations. Ugh.)

    What would you do?

    1. Persimmons*

      Is this something like tech support or customer service, where you need butts in seats? Or could your direct report work ahead to give you some breathing room?

      1. MeowYorker*

        Ahh, great question–I should have included that info. He’s in customer service, so I do need butts in seats. Or, butt in seat, since there’s only one! :P

    2. AdAgencyChick*

      How receptive do you think your boss would be if you went to her and said, “Fergus is asking for 3 weeks off. I’d love to be able to say yes because there are so many other people in this organization who do that, but I also don’t want to be the only person covering his work for three full weeks. Do you think we can solve this or should I tell him no?” (And you can bring some ideas to the table, like asking for help from other departments.)

      If the answer is no, I think you can explain to Fergus why his situation is different from that of others in the organization, and that 2 weeks, or three 1-week vacations spaced out more in the year, is more realistic.

      1. MeowYorker*

        My boss is hard to read, but I think this is the route I’ll take. Like you put it in the script, I think the fact that so many others have recently done it will be in his/our favor!

    3. CM*

      I would let him go because I’m always in favor of keeping good people happy and making workplaces more humane.

      But, that’s causing hardship for you and the obvious solution, temporary staffing, doesn’t seem like a great option. Is there a way you can get your direct report to make your life easier either before he leaves or after he comes back? Since some of the time off is unpaid, would it be possible for him to put a few extra hours in before he leaves or after he comes back, and maybe get some comp time for his vacation? Could any of his functions be put on hold, temporarily automated, or triaged so that you’re only handling the highest-priority issues and the rest can wait for him to come back?

      1. MeowYorker*

        That’s where I’m landing–I want him to be happy! Thanks for the suggestion re: asking him to do some extra work to build up the “reservoir” so I won’t have to spend as much time doing things that could be done ahead of time. Even though he is customer service and a lot of his daily tasks can’t be done ahead of time, there are a couple of things I can think of that can be, and I’m sure he can think of more. That’s brilliant. :)

    4. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Oh I hate being in the position that you are in. Yes, I would go to bat with my boss for other department help/coverage. Just for the reasons you described. Before you do that, I would talk to the employee, and say “I really want to be able to approve this, but here are the things we’re going to have to work out first, let’s think about some options do you have any ideas and I’ll work to line them up… I was thinking of asking for help from other departments, blah blah blah” This will help you understand from the employee’s perspective what they think will be critical, what they could feasibly arrange to farm out on their own, and where you will need to step in and make arrangements.

      I can almost guarantee that employee already has some ideas on how to make this work. Great employees who are contentious are always thinking ahead.

      To be clear this isn’t the case where an employee is going to be expected to wander around and ask people directly to cover their time off, it’s more about “I want to do this, but it is a longer leave than I normally cover so you and I are going to work together to see what we can come up with”.

      Now on to your boss. You need to frame this in the correct way. And here’s how I would do it.

      Meow: Boss, need to talk to you about a request from Fergus. He wants to take 3 weeks off in November. This is longer than normal and I’m not sure that I can cover it by myself, so I’d like to talk to you about seeing what we can do about getting some temporary help from another department. It’s actually good timing because I was starting to think about contingency plans in general, and coverage options for unexpected vacancy’s in that role. We’ve been pretty lucky that we haven’t had this come up. Maybe we want to look at cross training someone else so we don’t have any lapse in coverage or for the busy season.

      So all that was really long… Here’s the TL/DR
      1. Talk to employee and ask if they have any thoughts on coverage
      2. Talk to boss- frame it as an opportunity to cross train for future needs as well as this vacation
      3. Take the opportunity to look at the rest of your department functions and think about cross training for any other single sourced functions

    5. Thlayli*

      If some of the time off is unpaid, you might be able to use some of the savings to pay for a temp admin to take some of the load off?

  197. Anon4this*

    I’m currently being onboarded for an on-call shelver position at a library. There’s no hours that are guaranteed or scheduled. A part-time position just opened up for a reference assistant at 20 hours/week. I really want to apply and my internship supervisor at a different library has even encouraged me to do so (she caught wind of the position before it was posted), but I’m afraid it will reflect weirdly on my part since I haven’t even started my on-call position yet. Additional context: I was originally interviewed for a part-time library assistant position (different from reference) but said yes to the possibility of being hired as an on-call person.

    1. Thlayli*

      I don’t get theproblem? You have no guaranteed hours at jobA so they must realise you are going to keep job searching.

      1. Anon4this*

        To be clear: I’m not nervous about job hunting in general, I applying for a different job at the SAME location, before even starting the on-call one.

        1. Reba*

          Yes, but Thlayli is saying that should make sense to them, and not reflect badly on you. They should understand that for most people a more-regular job would be more appealing than a no-guaranteed-hours one! And in fact, you applied previously for another job, so they already know that you want one with more hours.

          When you apply, I’d mention — if they don’t already know, which it seems like they might because it’s probably not that big — about your history with the jobs. And you can consider alerting your new supervisor for the on-call that you are applying, just so that they hear it from you first, if that makes sense.

          Good luck!

    2. Yup*

      I would go for it. I work at a public library and people move around a LOT. I got a new job 2 weeks after starting as a shelver. They know that people want more hours and better jobs. If you’re in the internal job system, but just havne’t worked any shifts yet, then go for it.

  198. AdAgencyChick*

    Late to the party, but I’m gonna ask anyway…

    Has anyone here ever had harassment training that was actually any good? I want to set my brain on fire now that my agency has sent around another required round of training because this one is videos with a bunch of painfully bad acting and writing , and a quiz that won’t let you select your answer until the audio (which is just a reading aloud of the question) has finished playing. Doesn’t matter whether you’ve read the question and answers faster than that. By the time I was done, I wanted to fling my computer out the window.

    Just curious whether this ever gets done well. There was one live Q&A session my company had about a year ago where I felt like I learned something (since the Q&A was focused on less-obvious situations). But that’s about it.

    1. Nita*

      Well, our formal harassment training was the usual useless nonsense. However, last year we had informal harassment training nestled into one of our department meetings. The head of HR came in, gave a quick speech, and then opened the floor to the staff for them to bring up tough issues they’ve encountered. That was really useful – we’re consultants so the staff gets sent to a lot of construction sites, different neighborhoods, lots of working with strangers (sometimes one-on-one)… People were bringing up some really difficult situations, and there was a lot of good discussion on how to handle them. I’m sure there were things that weren’t brought up, but management and HR were very emphatic that if there’s something else that needs to be discussed in private, we shouldn’t hesitate to talk to them afterwards.

    2. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Well, depends on how you define good. I’ve had some that wasn’t terrible at least. But I don’t think it would qualify as good.

    3. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Haha.. sounds like the training I have to do.

      So the answer is always “Tell HR”, no you can’t drive by your coworkers house really creepy like in the middle of the night, and Barbara who’s blind should be asked if she wants you to open the door for her. Oh and I don’t think you’re allowed to call your coworkers ‘old dinosaur’ because they don’t know what a web browser is. Although maybe Barbara and the Dinosaur are from our diversity training. They are made by the same company so it all blends together.

      Nope, they are terrible. I have to tell myself that my company wants to pay me to sit through this… Ok with me.

    4. alex*

      We had an ENDLESS one of these video/audio program things on harassment last year; it took hours to complete b/c you couldn’t skip.

      To be totally honest, I put my computer on mute and graded papers during the whole tiresome thing…. Still aced the “quizzes” woohoo…

      You have my sympathies.

      1. Beatrice*

        This is what I do, too. Ours doesn’t allow the computer to be muted, but I put headphones in the headphone jack and don’t put them in my ears, and then I do something else while the audio is running and flip back to answer a question once in a while. The answers are all common sense anyway.

    5. CM*

      We had a great one (exactly once) where it was in-person and the trainer had us talk through scenarios that were (1) very customized to our setting and industry, and therefore very familiar, and (2) genuinely open to discussion and something where you could imagine somebody doing that without being (or at least thinking of themselves as) a total monster.

  199. FaintlyMacabre*

    Just have to vent about a co-worker. I don’t work directly with her (thank the merciful heavens). She is someone whose inner thoughts apparently become her outer thoughts. I was in the bathroom when she came in and started her monologue: “Oh thank goodness, I needed to pee for a while I should have come in sooner, Oh that toilet has pee on the seat I’d better wipe it I don’t want to get pee on me, oh right I need to do laundry tonight, I don’t want to cook dinner but it’s not payday so I probably shouldn’t go out, man we don’t get paid enough…” and by this point I had done what I needed to do as quickly as possible and escaped. From what I know of her she keeps up a monologue at most times… yowza.

    1. alex*

      EGAD! That is so strange.

      Maaaaybe she’s wearing some sort of covert communication device so somebody’s on the other end (like her cat?) or she’s like the guy in that movie Memento who needs to document everything! But probably she just has a very, very strange habit….

      1. FaintlyMacabre*

        We just passed each other in the hall and she said, “Hi, Faintly, haven’t seen you lately!” and it took all my self restraint not to say “Nope, but I’ve heard from you!”

        1. alex*

          HA that’s awesome. Or, like, “Hey, how’d the laundry go?”

          People’s weirdnesses usually delight me, but this one is a bit beyond the pale.

    2. Tabby Baltimore*

      Your co-irker sounds like what I’ve heard described as a “verbal processor” and, for the record, these people drive me nuts. They think out loud. All the time. About. Every. Little. Thing.

    3. Chaordic One*

      Yes, the poor woman is one of those people who “think out loud.” On top of that she’s neurotic. It’s one thing to have an inner dialog like that going on inside your head, but quite another to actually say everything that pops into your head. I don’t know what to say. You have my sympathy. She would drive me up the wall.

  200. Disappearing Benefits*

    In the beginning of the year, my company rolled out profit sharing and put it in our employee handbook. The profit sharing was to be based on each of our profitability. The profitability results were posted each week on a shared platform, and we were to get our profit sharing in our paychecks. The results stopped being posted (I think there were only results posted from Jan through March), and I never heard about it again. This month, I asked if this was something we were still doing, and it turns out we’re not. I personally never got any extra in my paycheck. I don’t know if anyone else did.

    Is this kosher? Is my company required to send out a notice of cancellation? What about past instances of where employees met profitability but didn’t receive profit sharing? I love my company and don’t want to be *that* person, especially since we’ve undergone a lot of structural changes/stress lately, but we don’t have a lot of benefits in the traditional sense. It feels like this was one of those incentives to get us to work harder and then swiped right away from us.

    1. DCGirl*

      Profit sharing can refer to a type of retirement vehicle. Are you referring to seeing those contributions reflected in your pay stubs when you refer to your paychecks? Or are you referring to profit sharing as a bonus program that is, in fact, reflected in your paychecks. If it’s a retirement plan, it’s regulated by ERISA and the employer is required to provide a summary plan description which will spell when and how much the employer contributes to the plan. The employer is required to provide the SPD to employees upon request. It’s possible that the employer has significant discretion on when to contribute based on when it feels it has reached a comfortable level of profitability. I worked at a place that did not provide profit sharing one year because it was a bad year in a down economy.

  201. Goya de la Mancha*

    Useless co-worker is GONE!!!!!

    She got a job in a different city and is O-U-T.

    The problem is that I’m fearing the replacement. My Supervisor wanted to make changes to the job posting and HR wouldn’t let her. HR is the one who “chose” this last hire who was such a disaster. I’m afraid it’s just going to happen again. Our industry has a networking website in which it would have been great to place the job posting there so that people with this interest/experience could apply, but nope, HR didn’t do that. So now we have people from random degrees/backgrounds applying for the position and who will probably end up being interviewed/hired. Grrr HR, just GRRR!

    1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      What kind of place doesn’t let the Hiring Manager actually make the hiring decisions?

      That’s crazy!

  202. Lissa*

    Does anyone know if any issue written about here ever also made a news article? I don’t mean something like the dress-code interns letter being picked up by other media, but someone writing in about say, an outrageous boss issue and then later on separately it made the news? I wonder, because it seems there’s an increasing frequency of horrible things like harassment actually making the news, with names etc. There have been a few times where I could really see it escalating far enough to legal stuff that there might be an article written about it somewhere, at least in a local paper.

    I just think it would be awesome (or horrifying, or both) to see some local story written about like, spicy food stealing guy, and think “whoa, I read about that in the comments!”

  203. Janine Willcall*

    This is probably too late for real advice, so consider it a vent:
    I absolutely hate when coworkers “telework” and then drop off the face of the earth!

    I have a coworker who I emailed this morning with a very high priority request, and even though her status was ‘on but away’ and she wasn’t on leave, she didn’t show up in the office or answer my email. Finally, hours later, I called her and she says she saw my email, but she’s unapproved TW (?) so she can’t work. Which apparently means she can answer her phone and read emails, but not respond with a quick explanation!

    Argh! This is not the first time she hasn’t been responsive, so I’m going to have to talk to our mutual boss about how she’s unreachable sometimes. I’m not looking forward to that.

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      I work with a woman like this. She is remote and although we are on different sub-teams, our work occasionally intersects. I have given up on asking her to do anything because it never gets done. I really think she doesn’t do much of anything.

    2. gecko*

      Makes sense to talk to your boss. At least they should give you a few options for workarounds if you have a request and she’s unavailable.

      1. Annie Moose*

        Ha, Alison talks about exactly this sort of thing in her book! Her suggestion is that if you approach it from a “I have a hard time getting a response from Sally when she’s working from home, how should I handle high priority requests if I don’t hear back from her in [an hour, two hours, whatever]?” sort of angle, which both lets your boss know that Sally isn’t available when she’s teleworking (if your boss doesn’t already know) AND hopefully will get you the boss’ approval to use a workaround.

    3. alex*

      I’m not in a field where this is a thing and may be missing something, but I don’t understand how you can claim to be teleworking but unapproved to do so and therefore unable to work. Isn’t that just…. not working?

      Sounds super annoying for you; I’m sorry.

    4. MissDisplaced*

      I work at home 1-2 days a week and really make more of a point to respond quickly. Especially to calls.
      I don’t know what she means by can’t work, to me like a sick day without being sick???

  204. I'm A Little Teapot*

    Well, this is fun. At work. Currently suffering through an allergy/asthma attack. Asthma is under control, so just waiting for the rest of it to pass. Getting there.

  205. Kimberlee, Ranavain*

    Question for other folks hiring out there:

    In the last few times I’ve been involved in hiring processes, I’ve found that it’s *really* hard to get a solid candidate pool. This is for jobs like Executive Assistant, Admin Assistant, Operations Assistant… the kinds of roles where we used to get like 125-200 applicants, I’m now seeing half that (or less)! This includes positions with titles like those that pay at or above market, and which post the salary range in their job description.

    Is anyone else experiencing this? I know it’s becoming more of an applicant’s market, but the contractions I’ve seen are much bigger than I would have thought.

    1. Work is Weird*

      My workplace is experiencing something similar. It’s not that there are no candidates; it’s that most of the resumes submitted are from people with totally different experience/skill sets than the position needs and is advertised for.

      I’m glad you said you’re posting the salary range and it’s at/above market. Right now you might have to stretch the pay band a bit to attract the best candidates; it’s definitely an applicant’s market.

    2. Chaordic One*

      I’m no longer involved in H.R., but I do frequently visit with a couple of people in our H.R. department. In my workplace we still have plenty of qualified applicants, however, management has had to be a bit less picky about the people who they hire. The people they hire are all qualified and most of the can do the job and do it well.

      But they are not ideal hires (at least in the eyes of the people doing the hiring). My current employer has a pretty good record for hiring and promoting women and people of color, but now it seems to be hiring more older people (in their 40s, 50s and 60s), more people who are obviously LGBT (although many LGBT people are now more out and obvious than they were in years past which is a good thing), more people with visible tattoos and piercings and more people who are overweight.

      I honestly believe that they would not be hiring these people if the labor pool were not tightening up. Personally, I think the fact that these people are being hired and that the labor pool is tightening up is a good thing. I just worry about them being laid-off when the next recession comes along.

  206. Amber Rose*

    And now, on the bottom of this massive thread where it will go mostly unnoticed, I confess this week’s greatest work sin: I stayed up until 2 am to pre-order the new Ninja Sex Party CD and then went to work the next day an absolute zombie.

    I did basically no work that day. I actually don’t remember much of anything from that day except coffee.

    2. TheWonderGinger*

      I mean, Steve Trevor and I have a bad habit of getting sucked into reruns of the Office till the wee hours of the morning and getting up at 6am to do backflips off of horses, so I can empathize. Coffee is life.

  207. alex*

    Does this sound weird for a resume bullet?
    “Handles all communication with tutors regarding policies, payroll, and performance issues.”
    The alliteration is feeling strange to me but maybe I’m crazy.

    (Job title is “Faculty Coordinator” of a college tutoring center, second-in-command to “Director” who doesn’t do much day-to-day.)
    Thank you.

    1. TheWonderGinger*

      “ Manages and communicates with tutors regarding policies, payroll, and performance issues.” ?

      1. alex*

        Ooh is “Handles” off? I used Manages in another bullet but could easily alter that one.

        1. Temperance*

          The word “handles” just sounds like you send emails to the tutors regarding these things. It’s not really bullet-worthy on its own.

          1. alex*

            AH OK thanks; yeah– that’s not actually the case, as I am the person who identifies and addresses performance issues and violations of policy and who approves all payroll (therefore identifying and addressing their mistakes).

        2. TheWonderGinger*

          Handles doesn’t carry much importance in my mind, could be interpreted as not as important as what you actually *do*.

          Oversees communications communication with tutors regarding policies, payroll, and performance issues.

          Supervises tutors regarding communications on policies, payroll, and performance issues.

          1. alex*

            Thank you! Yes, I see from this feedback that “handles” doesn’t actually communicate what I do.

            I’m not entirely sure it’s oversees or supervises communication either (though thank you for suggestions); I posted above what I actually do ( I am the person who identifies and addresses performance issues and violations of policy and who approves all payroll (therefore identifying and addressing their mistakes).) Maybe that should be 2 bullet points that are more specific…

    2. Fabulous*

      I don’t mind the alliteration. It’s the verb that needs adjusted, IMO. Oversees? Manages? Serves as communication liaison to tutors regarding…? I’d also suggest adding something quantifiable to the bullet, such as the number of tutors or how often performance issues arise.

      1. alex*

        Thanks so much; the verb issue seems to be the consensus.

        I wrote above– I am the person who identifies and addresses performance issues and violations of policy and who approves all payroll (therefore identifying and addressing their mistakes).

        So I don’t think “handles” is coming across accurately to you all. VERY helpful!

    1. alex*

      I’m pretty sure most people do this at some time or another (guilty). :) Just take zero action!!

        1. annejumps*

          Oh yeah, I’m not doing anything about it — and it is kinda fun. Just annoying, in its way!

    2. TheWonderGinger*

      I turned my work crush into my work husband who gets along well with Steve Trevor and now I just see him as an obnoxious brother who brings me coffee.

  209. Master Bean Counter*

    Petty or reason to pro-rate?

    Say a person started a new position with in the same company 3 months into the year. It’s time for annual raises. Everybody is going to get, say 5%, it’s been a good year. The person gets informed because their new position came with a significant raise that their raise is going to be pro-rated. So this person is now going to get less of a raise than the rest of the company. Petty or good reasoning?
    Now add into the equation that the person was actually performing the duties of the position six months prior to getting the actual promotion. Petty or good reasoning still?

    Thoughts?

    1. CM*

      My guess is that you are the person. Am I right?
      #1, I think the company can justify saying that — it’s kind of petty because they should err on the side of keeping people happy and loyal, but it’s not outrageous.
      #2, then I think it’s more petty but still not outrageous.
      Overall, I think it’s a mistake to treat people like this. Making an across-the-board improvement but singling some people out to NOT get it is not worth the bad will it generates, even if there are reasons.

    2. Kathenus*

      My company has a formula for raises that does involve pro-rating for people who start during the year. Ours doesn’t apply to people who transfer from one FT to another FT, but does for external hires or PT to FT promotions. But the formula is known and applies to all. Seems fair to me the way we do it.

    3. Beatrice*

      I think it’s a short-sighted decision and poorly handled. I don’t think the “performing the duties of the position for six months” detail is relevant, though – it sounds more like dissatisfaction over the delay of the promotion and amount of the raise bleeding over into the new problem of raise eligibility. Both the company and the employee missed the opportunity to clarify the issue when the original promotion was hammered out. The company really missed big – the whole point of promoting people from within is to reward and incentivize hard work, and their handling of it bred resentment instead.

      This happened to me years ago. I accepted a hard-earned promotion with a pretty minimal pay increase. I was thrilled with the title boost but not wild about the money and I got shot down hard for trying to negotiate (in a position that involved negotiating on behalf of the company – not that I’m still bitter, haha!) Then I found out six months later that my annual raise was nerfed because of the increase I’d gotten for the promotion. I was pretty resentful, but I’ve been careful to clarify my eligibility for the next pay increase cycle with every job move since then. I don’t really care whether I’m eligible or not, but if I’m not, I’m using that as ammo to negotiate for more up front.

    4. Anon non*

      In my last life we provided the last pay raise data and the length of time in the position as informational for the managers making the pay recommendations. Sometimes it mattered, sometimes it didn’t based on the specific circumstances. It was never an absolute formula. I hate the idea that info like that is prescriptive vs directional.

    5. BRR*

      I’m conflicted because if it was me I’d be irritated but if my coworker got the full raise I’d be irritated they essentially got a bigger raise than me. At 9 months it feels petty athough but possibly difficult to prove. I’d take a prorated raise over my company’s black and white policy regarding things like this. “Hey your merit raise is really big because we don’t factor in that cola you got two months ago.”

  210. Drama Llama*

    I’m not sure how to respond to this work email. Advice?

    I’m in HR. I emailed everyone in the teapot painting team to say we had some great customer feedback about their work. Less than half an hour later I get a reply from Head of Teapot Painting as follows:

    “Encouraging staff too much, too early is not healthy for their professional development. Your email is most unwise.”

    I’m….so confused by this. I wish she’d talked to me in person so I can at least clarify what she meant, or ask for some context as to why my positive feedback was inappropriate.

    Now that I’ve written this out I realise she sounds crazy. I would normally dismiss such an email, but she is someone whose professional judgment I usually trust. So it makes me wonder if I am in the wrong somehow in ways I don’t see; so I would appreciate your input.

    Not sure why she cc’d my boss in, either.

    1. Anon non*

      I would start by asking my boss if she has any insight that might not have bene obvious to me. Assuming nothing super forthcoming I would talk to the author live. Say what you just said – I really appreciate your professional judgment so I’m looking for some insight. Here are the facts and what i was thinking when I sent this out. How would you have handled this and why.

      If she still sounds crazy, mark the whole episode as crazy and move on. She sounds whacky.

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        Definitely ask your boss about it first.

        “Eleanor’s response to the email that I sent to the teapot painting team really caught me off guard. I’d love to hear your thoughts about it.”

        1. Saskia*

          Yes, try this approach.

          My interpretation is that HOTP has outdated and erroneous beliefs about human behaviour and psychology that leads to poor management of their team.

          But perhaps there is a long backstory explaining the email to you.

          Either way you need to know more before choosing how to respond.

    2. TheWonderGinger*

      This just made me whisper “what the f*ck” at my desk. Don’t worry my co workers already think I’m crazy.

      But yeah, that is extremely bizarre. The most unwise verbiage really throws me for a loop too, seems like it was a reach for sounding more important?

    3. Tabby Baltimore*

      I wish I could jump to the conclusion that the Head of Teapot Painting is probably miserly with her praise, but I can’t. Legitimate reasons *could* exist to support her concern about “too much” encouragement given to members of her team “too early.” But if she honestly thinks members of this team would get a swelled head after reading your praise, and be difficult to work with as a result (I’m trying to fathom what, exactly, she’s worried about, and that’s my best guess), I would conclude she’s having problems managing her team in general, which is on HER to handle. I think her asking you to squelch praise to make it easier for her to manage her team is inappropriate, because it looks like she’s trying to offload part of her job onto you.

    4. Kathenus*

      I worked with someone once whose philosophy was that it wasn’t his job to praise people for doing things well, it was his job to tell them when they did something wrong. And yes, he said it that clearly and directly. Several years later, I think in part just through osmosis, he had occasionally started actually complimenting staff – publicly. It was amazing the first time it happened.

      She’s nuts, and what a horrible management philosophy to have. Hopefully she’ll have her ‘aha’ moment at some point. I actually think cc’ing your boss might be good, because what you did was great, what she did was not, why not have your boss know that?

    5. Pending*

      This kind of vaguely reminds me of the letter from someone who was managing a problem employee who everybody else was praising (but only because I’m *really* reaching for an explanation since you say you trust her judgement) where the LW didn’t know how to tactfully deal with the praise. Maybe she felt undermined by somebody encouraging them when she was having trouble reeling them in?

    6. Someone else*

      If the person who said this has other knowledge/info of the people in question being praised already having some sort of performance issue…I could see where this might be coming from. I think the way she framed it makes very little sense and it sort of pointless. But if this were an example where the team had maybe been not following protocol or disregarding direct instruction from Head of Teapot Painting, but nonetheless the client was happy, and thus the client sent positive feedback….then yeah I can see how HOTP might not want them to have positive feedback from the situation overall because it’d be reinforcing the bad habits? But unless you were expected to know all that context the message you received makes no sense.

    7. BRR*

      As others said, there might be a reason but I’m pretty skeptical of anybody saying “your email is most unwise.”

  211. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

    There is a HR agency that is well known for its spammy tactics and lengthy and pointless hiring process. Basically, their modus operandi is to seduce people to send them their CVs, make them complete a never ending assessment and then fill their inboxes with ads for unrelated positions (for example, nursing to a retired social services worker). Up to now, it was enough to set a rule to delete such spam right away, but now I get calls from a call center in Costa Rica! I have no idea how they got my phone number, and I’m tired to repeat over and over again “please don’t call me anymore”. So I turned on the priority mode instead of checking the origin of every call.

  212. Michael*

    Hi Alison,

    I loved your info on the “work history” section of job applications. I really liked how you said that if the job application doesn’t ask for a full work history, then you don’t have to provide it.

    I have been seeing following question on a lot of job applications- “have you ever been dismissed or asked to resign from any position?” The follow up question then asks “if so, explain.”

    Could you use the same approach with this question with the “work history” section? Basically, if it’s not asking for all jobs I’ve been dismissed from, then do I really need to list all of them?

    The question is really vague in my opinion. I have been let go from several jobs in college, and some of them are pretty embarrassing. I’d rather not explain all of them if I don’t have to. Thank you for your help!

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      How long has it been since you were in college? I think if those jobs aren’t relevant to your current profession and you have a solid work history without them, you can leave them off and not mention them at all. Unless it’s a government position that is asking for a comprehensive work history.

        1. Michael*

          Thank you for the info! I worked several part time jobs after I graduated college. I got fired from one of them ( it was only 6 hours a week). It is somewhat relevant to my career. Six days later I applied to a job in my field. This question came up, I clicked “yes” and explained one situation when I was let go, I didn’t explain this recent one. In my field I’m pretty sure they only do criminal background checks- it’s not a government position.

          I guess since the question is so vague, I’m trying to use it to my advantage.

          I checked other applications in my field, and some ask a similar question, but are way more specific, like if you have to answer “yes,” they ask you to list employment dates, employer, reason for leaving, etc.

          1. Michael*

            Wait, I am a teacher so is that considered a government position? Or government employee?

            1. Michael*

              But then again the application just asked for “work experience,” it didn’t ask for a comprehensive work history haha

  213. Clementine*

    Does anyone want to discuss cases where you purposefully or otherwise started talking to your manager about other career opportunities without a firm plan to leave? Is this ever a good idea (I’m sure it is occasionally). How about if it was a career opportunity on another team in the same large company? I’m trying to navigate this, and in the past, I’ve always just sprung this as a surprise (and I think that was the right decision), but I’m waffling now.

    1. T*

      I’ve been pretty open and honest with my bosses about looking into other opportunities. I told my current boss about the last interview I had (I didn’t get it) and she’s all for me to pursue what I need to do in order to keep me from getting bored and keep me happy. If it means outside our group, it means outside our group. But we have a personal relationship too so I could see that not working out for other boss/employee relationships. I’ve also worked at places that were pretty short handed so what were they going to do? Fire me? Drive me to quit sooner? I just be as upfront as I can be.

    2. Clarice Fitzpatrick*

      I’ve done it before and it really depends on the vibe and context. For example, I’m in a student job where I have good rapport with my supervisors so me job hunting for something more permanent isn’t a surprise and they’re very supportive of me. In my other jobs, that weren’t student jobs and I wasn’t as friendly with my supervisors, I just didn’t talk about it.

    3. Red Reader*

      My boss knows that my long-term goal is to continue up the org chart in our department/organization, and is gung-ho to provide me training and opportunities toward that end. But she also knows that I adamantly am not looking to leave our organization (and even if I wanted to, which I don’t, they paid for half my masters degrees, so I’m contracted to stay in-house til at least May 2020 or face the clawback anyway :) )

      I probably wouldn’t have told her anything if my goal was to leave the organization though.

  214. cougar lamp*

    Is it appropriate to hint at the conditions of the organization in a resume?

    I ask because I’m trying to make my resume more AAM-friendly (talking about what I’ve accomplished in the role, not the job duties). Iit’s difficult for me because, while I don’t necessarily feel I was *great* at the job, there are definitely things I accomplished, and I feel like context is important.

    I appreciate any input!

    1. nep*

      Could you clarify? I don’t get what you mean by ‘hint at conditions of the organization.’ (And do you mean the organization where you currently work, or where you’re applying?) Thanks.

      1. Triplestep*

        Yes, I don’t get what this means. How do “conditions” relate to “accomplishments”?

        1. Friday afternoon fever*

          I’m thinking cougar lamp means that the organization is so dysfunctional that, in context, their accomplishments are much greater than they appear without context.

          And unfortunately … I’m not sure there’s a graceful way to say this, unless you can put it into really objective, specific terms — like instead of “managed payment records,” “managed payment records and prepare weekly updates for 800 clients.”

  215. nep*

    Tips for learning to edit video–short of finding someone who does it and shadow them? (I’m looking for someone I can work with on that.)
    Is Lynda good for that? I know that a tutorial is not the doing of the thing. But I’m seeing ‘video editing skills’ (esp with Adobe Premiere cc) desirable’ or ‘…a plus’ on job ads that are of interest to me.
    I’ve worked with people doing video but (foolish me at the time) I didn’t take advantage of that opportunity to pick up that skill.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Look for comminity college or evening extension classes if you want in-class time. This was how I learned + my own time with Adobe Classroom in a Book.

    2. nep*

      (It wouldn’t be to put something about it on resume–just to familiarise myself with it as it comes up a lot in openings I see. And it is of interest to me–would like to get good at it.)

      1. Pending*

        I second YouTube videos! You wouldn’t think of it right away (for me the first thing that comes to mind is funny animal videos) but there are really in-depth tutorials on there. The main program I use for work is notoriously user-unfriendly, but I taught myself how to use it in part through free 30min Youtube lessons.

      2. nep*

        Yes–looking at a lot on there. A wealth of information, for sure.
        And at some point gotta just do it, I suppose–take some footage and play with it. Then I see straightaway what I’ve got no idea how to do, and what my questions are.

  216. Baguette*

    Hey everyone. A couple of years ago, when I moved away from home, I got a waitressing job at a food place, but was fired after 3 weeks. To be honest, it was a saving grace that this happened – I loved the store I ended up working at afterwards, and the place that fired me treated staff pretty terribly (I was told to come in for an interview that turned out to be an unpaid 1 hour shift with no prior training, they told me my shift schedule and then changed it without telling me, managers weren’t very welcoming and outright mean at times, things like that).

    They fired me and another girl on the same day (and maybe others) with no prior warning, and at a table in the restaurant within earshot/view of staff and customers. I asked what the reason for this was (was I having performance issues, making mistakes, etc. – because to my knowledge, I hadn’t been, and had never had any problems in my previous job, or, for the record, in my job afterwards) and the manager told me there were no mistakes or problems, they just didn’t think it was the “right fit”.

    Obviously this job is not on my resume, nor do I use them as a reference. My question is – do I have to answer “yes” when asked at any future job interviews if I’ve ever been fired? The application form for the job I got afterwards asked this question so I put yes with a small explanation, but it seems so insignificant that I’m wondering if I should bother in future. The job was paid in cash and I don’t remember getting any payslips, but I do remember signing some paperwork of some kind.

    1. Baguette*

      Additional context: it was a part-time job. So within three weeks I probably did maybe 10 shifts or less.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I think you’re probably safe to leave it off unless you’re going for a job that requires a security clearance or something.

      1. Triplestep*

        Part time job paid in cash for three weeks? I’m not even sure I’d check “yes” that you were fired from a job for roles that require a security clearance. Seems like there’s no record of your ever having worked there.

  217. Just passing through*

    Long story short…I’d been interviewing for a long time, finally got an offer from a company I was really interested in, and have moved to a new state to pursue a career with this company. I loved what I did at my old job, but the uncertainty about its future and my employment there was a little scary. Fast forward to recently starting my new job, and I’m uneasy every day to the point of feeling sick. Even though I’m doing basically the same tasks I feel like a newbie. Everything is taking me longer, and I feel like I can’t learn all the new processes fast enough. Maybe I needed to eat a slice of humble pie and realize I’m not the best. Maybe it’s just hard to start over and be the low man on the totem pole? No matter what all the issues were with my old workplace I can’t help feeling nostalgic, and that’s making me feel like taking this job was a mistake. Am I crazy? Anyone else feel this way?

    1. Joanna*

      i currently feel the same way, at my last job i was the person that everyone turned to for help and now at my new job i feel so incompetent. I hate coming into work not knowing what to do and having to ask everyone a million of questions. They say it takes an average of 6 months to get used to a new job so hang in there! You are definitely not alone in feeling like this.

    2. Someone else*

      I felt that way when I got my current job, several years ago. It took me 3-6 months to feel like I finally knew what I was doing, and I felt like that took way too long. BUT the turning point was once I did have a handle on things, I REALLLLLY had a handle on things, to the point where I couldn’t even remember why I struggled so much or what was so hard because it all felt so completely obvious and intuitive.
      So I think the way you’re feeling is probably normal, but just remember, you left the last place for a reason and don’t give in to nostalgia. If around the six month mark you don’t start feeling more comfortable with most things (or if you’re not otherwise getting positive feedback from your supervisor) then be worried you’re actually not up to snuff. But if it’s been less than that, and the concern about how long things are taking is coming from you, and not the company, then you may just be a habitual high performer who is impatient about settling in.

    3. nep*

      At the organisation where I work part time, a few months back I took some shifts in a new department (having mastered things in my own department over a few years–being that person everyone turned to with questions). Well! The first several times I worked in the new area, I was immensely frustrated and demoralised. There were many times I got so flustered and just said, ‘I’m done. I shouldn’t be here. This is it–no more of these shifts for me!’ (Much of it was ego, much of it was feeling bad I was making clients/patrons WAIT as every task took me so much longer than normal.)
      But at the same time I knew I was learning new skills and I was still in touch with the part of me that was glad for that. I really didn’t think I was going to hang with it, but then there came a time I couldn’t wait for another shift because things were coming together and I was excited about progress and wanted to apply what I’d learned…I was learning.
      TIME and perseverance do it…and in the early days, we just can’t imagine we’ll be that competent person we felt like before. (Now, I’m helping train new people.)
      You’ll get there. You will.

    4. TheQ*

      Me too. I just moved onto a new job 3 months ago and I feel nostalgia of my old workplace. I was the go to person for everything! I was at the OldJob for 10 years and it’s like going thru a divorce. Except it was an amicable divorce you might say. I feel lonely at my new job because I’ve got no one to talk to. No foot traffic whatsoever. Coworkers are somewhat stuck up. Hopefully I get over this hump soon…..so let’s hang in there together!!

  218. Leslie*

    Advice needed! I started a new job 5 weeks ago and it’s been awful. The culture is very fast paced and everyone has a “learn on your own” attitude and i find myself barely holding my head above water. Not to mention, the person training me is awful. She is incredibly rude to me and answers every question I ask as if it’s the most stupid question she’s ever heard. Today she left me in tears because of how openly frustrated she was with me.
    I spoke with my manager on how overwhelmed I am by the lack of structure and the expectation that comes with my role. I told her I needed better training, much more thorough and slow paced especially since there’s no references I can lean on for help. I didn’t tell her how my trainer has been treating me because they are really close and I can just tell it’ll go nowhere. But so far the training has actually gotten worse, I keep getting asked about statuses on things I’ve never heard of or even knew it was related to me and no one is helping me much.
    I’ve never quit a job before so soon but I cannot take this environment any longer. I currently live with my parents and my finances are in great condition if I were to quit without a backup job. But I’ve never done that before and i’m freaked out at the possibility of being unemployed for who knows how long. Any suggestions?

    1. Baguette*

      When you spoke to your boss about feeling overwhelmed, did you indicate that you were considering leaving over it? If not, it might be worth going back to her and saying that you are having serious doubts about your ability to stay in the position due to X. She might tell you that that’s the way the company works and it’s not going to change – or, she might realise that she has to do something. I also wonder if you’d consider telling her how your trainer is treating you, even if you think she won’t do anything. If she does, then great, and if she doesn’t, I think that gives you a pretty big red flag that this is not a good place to be working.

      1. Leslie*

        I didn’t tell her I was considering leaving. She isn’t a great manager to be honest and we’ve barely communicated since I’ve been hired. She’s super quiet and doesn’t speak english well. When I told her about being overwhelmed about their “learn it on your own” training style she pretty much hinted that that’s how they operated here. The role I was hired for was more in line with my experience (which is marketing) and all i’ve done so far is handle inventory which I have zero experience in. I told her about this and she just said we’ll work on it more. She hasn’t. She’s just thrown more inventory stuff at me that I haven’t been trained on. I’ve gotten issues given to me from months ago that I’m supposed to memorize and provide updates for but no one has taught me what any of it means.

        I could talk to her about how my trainer is treating me but I’m worried it’ll be awkward. My trainer sits literally within arms reach of me and to have a discussion about her attitude will make me feel weird around her. If i didn’t rely so much of my day on my trainer than I would address it, but the fact that I not only sit so near to her but have to go to her for every little thing I need help on will just strain our relationship more. She doesn’t strike me as someone with sympathy or someone that will change because my feelings are hurt.

        1. Jennifer Thneed*

          Are you in a startup? It sounds like that, because they can grow crazy fast in unexpected ways.

          Is your manager the person who hired you? If not, go talk to that person. Say explicitely things like “In the interview we talked about XYZ and all I’ve done so far is ABC.”

          Is your manager also the trainer’s manager? If not, talk to the trainer’s manager. (Most people are crappy trainers because they are not taught how to train, they’re just good at the process they are teaching.) Say explicitely things like “She is rude when I ask questions. She brought me to tears and that is NOT like me.”

          But yeah, don’t be afraid to leave this job. Five weeks is nothing, it’s a blip, you can leave it off your resume. It sounds like an awful situation, truly.

          1. Leslie*

            it’s a a company that has been around since the 90’s but they’ve experienced a lot of growth over the past decade and our department has grown a lot over the past few years. but the name is really unrecognizable so it kinda feels like a start up. my manager was not the person who hired me. i had an interview with a guy who i think is the director (i honestly don’t know his title because he’s never there and when he is there he doesn’t interact with the department much.) I wished i had a better connection with him because i do want to talk about how the interview never mentioned how a big part of my job is handling inventory and traveling.
            My manager is also the trainer’s manager. She acts like a completely different person around our manager. During a meeting with them both, I said how i’m afraid to ask a lot of questions and the trainer was smiling and saying things like no don’t be, i love questions! and then today I asked her a question on this new assignment I was given and she responded to me in such a “what the hell are you thinking” way that i just kept my mouth shut for the rest of the day.
            i know in my heart that i should leave because this job isn’t worth the stress i feel and also i definitely deserve to be treated better. it’s just the not having a backup job to go to is what’s scaring me.

    2. Utoh!*

      Not sure what you are looking for here. The job is not what you thought it was, the person who is supposed to be *training* you is being a douche and your manager is of no help. It’s been five weeks and hate it, get out now before you are completely demoralized.

    3. Thlayli*

      Three options:
      1 talk to the guy who hired you. Tell him you haven’t done any marketing and it’s all been inventory, you know nothing about inventory and you’re not getting much training. Say specifically you’ve been asked for updates about things that were never mentioned to you before being asked for an update on it. If he’s any sort of a decent director at all, he will want to know this. Ask him if there is a plan for transitioning you into the marketing role you were hired for.
      2 start looking for another job immediately if you aren’t already doing so or step up your job search. In the meantime try to emotionally disengage from your work entirely. Just think of it as “I’m being paid to take crap so I’ll take the crap and take the money until I am out of here”.
      3: quit and put all your energy into your job search.

      I would suggest you do option 2 as long as you can bear it (not to the extent you are totally mentally destroyed thoug – go to option 3 before then). And try option 1 in the meantime as you never know something might come of it.

  219. Kobanya*

    I’ve got a coworker who looks into my office every. single. time. he goes by (there’s a printer right outside my office we share with several other teams). Other people do it too, but by this point (as I’ve been in that office for 1+ years now), most people just do a quick glance (if they look at all) and move on. At first, I thought it was because I sing (my boss/team really doesn’t care if I do that), but when I stopped doing it, he would still look in. Then, I thought it was because I use a low-light lamp, so he was confused if someone was in the office (esp since I turned my monitors so I’m angled towards the door, but not in a way that people can see me if they’re my height), but nope, he’s way taller than me and can definitely see me over the monitors. On like, Monday or Tuesday, when he was going by, he did this weird jerking motion to wrench himself back around to look at me. (Imagine like an extreme “Bigfoot sighting photo” pose It was so bizarre I almost laughed out loud.

    I haven’t said anything to my supervisor, and I don’t want to talk to his, because his boss a: doesn’t like me for a very petty reason and b: I don’t like his boss because of that reason, so for now I just ignore him. Still, it creeps me out something fierce. I haven’t talked to him about it, because I have no way on how to phrase, “Hey dude, as a lady, you’re kinda creeping me out by looking in my office every time you go to the printer, which is multiple times a day. Please stop.” without it coming out awkwardly, or him getting offended and then probably complaining to his boss or mine. Any suggestions?

    1. Work is Weird*

      Every time he does it, look up and say, “Did you need something?” When he says no you can say, “Just wondering because you seemed to be looking in on me.” I bet he gets the point pretty quickly.

      1. Kobanya*

        I would, but by the time I realize he’s looking at me, he’s gone by to the printer. It’s like this sort of “drive by” glancing, so like he walks by, quick glance in, but his feet are still moving. It’s like that quick glance you do when you’re walking down a hallway and you check to make sure the adjoining hallway doesn’t have a person you’re going to crash into. Like, my boss’ second in command does it too, but usually when we make eye contact, he nods and keeps going.

        1. Jennifer Thneed*

          Say something! I assume he has to pass your doorway again when he leaves the printer? So when you see his walk by, get up and stand in your doorway and stop him on the way back. And don’t be subtle: “Every time you walk by you look in my office. Every. Single. Time. Don’t do that anymore.”

          It probably IS gendered behavior, but I wouldn’t bring that up because it gives him a chance to derail your concern by denying that it’s about you being female. And it really doesn’t matter WHY he’s doing it, it only matters that you want him to STOP.

          1. Kobanya*

            That sounds like a good plan. I’ll have to wait a while to do it though, for job related reasons. :/

            Honestly, I’ve considered just going over to his office and asking him to cut it out. (I saw it once while someone was training me, and I actually accidentally looked into his office because the lights were off lol) My job kinda has a thing about asking people not to do things out in the open where everyone can hear (joys of an open door policy), instead of privately discussing it in their office.

            I wouldn’t be so shy about this normally, but a few previous bad experiences with asking coworkers not to do x or y has left me with a “welp better just not say anything and deal with it” approach to stuff.

        2. Jennifer Thneed*

          Also, can you change anything up physically? I know you might not be able to, but if you change so you’re not facing your doorway it might make a difference. Do you have a door you can close? (I recognize there can be issues with that.) Or if he’s looking thru a window, can you cover it with white paper? Can you move the printer itself? It might have to stay generally where it is, but if it moved 2 feet further along it might alter things?

          1. Kobanya*

            In order:

            1. I have my desk where it is because it’s the best angle to keep people from looking at me from the doorway. Unfortunately, due to the shape of the office and the size of my desk, my current configuration is the best method. (Previously, the desk was in the center of the room at such a weird angle that almost everyone looked in, and the lights were on then. Plus it wasn’t my office then, haha)

            2. Open door policy, otherwise I would have that sucker shut all day, every day. So putting up paper is out as well.

            3. The printer has to stay where it is, because it’s super huge and is in the hallway adjacent to my office. Image a reversed ‘L’ and where the short line ends is where the opening to my office is and the long end is the hallway the printer is on. When I got the office, I knew it was a high traffic area, but I didn’t want the other office for a bunch of reasons.

            1. valentine*

              Place a mirror behind you, at his height. A safety trainer said people behave better when they see themselves in action.

              1. Kobanya*

                Oooh, now that is a fascinating idea! I still have an empty bookshelf in my office, which I think is the right height for a mirror. If people ask, I can say I’m finally getting around to decorating my office. :D

  220. Collingswood*

    Any advice on what to say when people keep asking if you are pregnant. (Other than, no, just fat, thanks—which has been my go to.)

    Background, I just quit drinking and my stomach seems to be a bit bloated. I’m guessing a combo of diet change and my body reacting to having been a bit dehydrated for a while. While I’m happy about giving up drinking, the comment me have me a bit down. Advice would be appreciated.

    1. Kobanya*

      I haven’t had this happen to me, but for friends who have, they said they went with the “super intense stare” and then just walked off. My mom usually goes “no, just fat, but here’s a very long detailed infodump about my two kids”. Although that doesn’t work if there are no kids, lol.

      It really does suck when that happens. If it’s just random strangers, I really would go with the “stare and walk off” idea. If it’s friends (and jeez, why would they be doing that?) you could probably ask them to stop.

      1. Collingswood*

        So far it’s been from the cafeteria check out lady “oh, you’re pregnant! Congrats!!!” A
        and, following a long discussion in Chinese at a foot massage place, “you have baby?” It just seems so random. And it’s making me feel bad when I am trying to feel good about being (early days) sober.

        1. Kobanya*

          Sometimes doing a really long “nooooooooooooope” will clue people in that they’re off-base and shouldn’t have made the comment. With the cafeteria lady, I would maybe suggest something like (if it’s a repeated thing), “Hey, can you not make comments about my stomach? Thanks.” It’ll feel super uncomfortable, but usually doing that once or twice will make them stop.

    2. heckofabecca*

      Kobanya’s advice about initiating the ~intense stare~ sounds good!
      For questions, there are the age-old “What a strange thing to ask”-type responses that Captain Awkward recommends.

      Congrats on going sober :)

    4. Saskia*

      I’m sorry people are making assumptions about you and being incredibly rude.

      This has happened to me a lot at different times in my life, it’s infuriating and commonplace.

      The way you reply depends on whether you have ongoing contact with the person or not, or if it’s lots of separate questions from strangers.

      Flatly saying ‘no’ is fine. Refusing to reply is fine. Walking off is fine, or saying ‘what the …’ and ending the interaction.

      For some people you might like ‘wow, that’s a rude question’ or ‘why would you ask that?’ or *glacial stare* ‘what an intrusive and inappropriate question.’

      Congratulations on quitting drinking!

  221. How to Deal with Tone*

    I’m not sure if I’m looking for advice, or commiseration, or a check if this is weird or if I’m weird or if I’m a jerk. The situation is this:
    I have a coworker who always sounds condescending. It’s not just to me. It’s to everyone. It’s not just about work things. Even in the 1-2 minutes casual chitchat before a meeting start, everything in her tone is what I would normally describe as dripping with condescension, and it is all in the tone. If you saw a transcript of what she says, nobody would blink at it. Because she sounds like this on literally every sentence, I’m pretty sure it’s just her voice. That’s just how she talks.
    And yet I can’t help but feel icky everytime she talks to me. It’s an ingrained reaction to hearing that tone because in any other context, it would be an indication of something not good. I can’t really talk myself out of it. I mean, I try, and intellectually I am convinced she’s not doing it intentionally and try to just shrug it off and take the statements at face value. Still it’s really unpleasant to have that feeling every time she talks. Even though my brain has concluded this is just how she talks, my body still has the physical reaction I would if someone were being super condescending. I’m not sure if I’m even making sense, but if anyone has any ideas for coping mechanisms or something, I’m all ears.

    1. TheQ*

      I feel your pain. I work with a coworker like that. My mechanism of coping is putting on earbuds. Or I take a 5 min walk. When she’s on vacation, it’s vacation for for the entire department!! I wish she’d take more time off or go for other jobs!

      1. How to Deal with Tone*

        Unfortunately I can’t do either of those things. We don’t work in the same office. The only time I talk to her is phone or Webex, so if I’m talking to her at all it’s because I need to. The upside is, this isn’t every day. But it does mean I dread talking to her and every conversation is uncomfortable.

    2. Chaordic One*

      I don’t really have any advice, but you have my sympathy. I know how hard it is be around someone like that. In my situation with a former boss, I kind of became a BEC with a bad case of resting b**** face when I had to be around this person, which wasn’t great.

  222. Work is Weird*

    In a text exchange this week with one of the executives I support who joined our company a few months ago…

    His flight was delayed and, knowing him, he was at the airport bar about four drinks in.

    I asked if there was anything I could do to help with the delayed flight (which was a personal trip I didn’t book). He said “Yes, plan my birthday ;)” and gave me the date. (Which, of course, I knew, since I basically organize his freakin’ life!)

    Then he texted a date two days after his birthday and said, “At my place. Bring your Cuchi Cuchi.” I was taken aback and didn’t respond. The next day it was business as usual.

    How would you take the Cuchi Cuchi thing? Is there some innocent interpretation I’m missing? I’ve Googled and all I find is that it refers to ones ladybits…the most innocuous translation was British for “hanky-panky”.

    Feeling a little skeeved out here.

    1. Work is Weird*

      I should note – he is from South America, so I feel like maybe there’s some translation or cultural thing I haven’t figured out.

      1. Jennifer Thneed*

        I answered you already, but: nope. It’s not a cultural thing, it’s a skeevy arsehole thing. Please don’t try to excuse this behavior. It’s very much not okay.

    2. Jennifer Thneed*

      That was not an innocuous comment. You’re not missing anything. He’s new at your company? I’d mention this to someone, like your boss or his. If they try to brush it off, don’t let it be brushed. Do you have HR?

      Oh, and joke or not, don’t plan his birthday, ffs! And don’t offer help with personal travel. He has just lost all access to that kind of extra help. And DON’T erase that text. Skeeved is exactly the right reaction.

    3. Saskia*

      This person is skeevy and you can trust your reaction to his texts.

      Please document these messages just in case you need to refer to them in future.

    4. Thlayli*

      Yeah that’s creepy. Mention it to someone else before you address it with him in case he turns into an a psycho when you ask him to stop.

  223. Fake Name In Case My Boss Is Here*

    Reality check/input, please, on boomers working w/ millennials and Gen Xers.

    1. Fake Name In Case My Boss Is Here*

      Sorry, accidentally clicked before finished question.

      My younger coworkers often exclude me from workplace information and are often unbelievably rude to me (that’s a way watered-down version). It got so bad I spoke to Boss about it. I was told I read too much into things, I need a thicker skin, they probably think I’m too formal. Boss has also made thinly-veiled wisecracks about my age. One remark was so egregious I’m still considering consulting a lawyer.

      I know people of all ages outside of work and don’t experience Gen Xers and millennials as inherently rude and mean as a generational characteristic. Sometimes I think my boss just hires mean people.

      Your thoughts?

      1. Penguin*

        That sounds an awful lot like a boss/office problem, or at least a maturity problem (not on your part, to be clear!) than anything else. My perspective may be skewed (oddities with my upbringing mean that I don’t map well to my chronological generation) but I think that disrespecting your coworkers/subordinates is a problem completely outside of age/generation.

        This letter (and its original) may help provide perspective:
        https://www.askamanager.org/2017/08/update-is-the-work-environment-ive-created-on-my-team-too-exclusive.html

        1. Fake Name In Case My Boss Is Here*

          Thanks! I read that post avidly when it first came out because so much of it hit home and it’s very helpful the 2nd time around.

          I’ve made my share of mistakes and misjudgments along the way, but I’ve never treated anyone like this in my life.

  224. Anon because mental health*

    People with “invisible” health issues (mental health, insomnia, etc.) that require work accommodations, how did you handle getting a doctor’s note/documentation? Especially if your issues were complex and you didn’t have a longstanding relationship with a doctor? Was it easy, hard, did it take a long time?

    Context: I’m dealing with what are probably mental health and/or circadian rhythm issues and being late to work. But I’m hitting a wall with finding a solution or a diagnosis. TBH it’s hard for me to even set up appointments, especially after dealing with unhelpful psychs in the past.

    I don’t want to walk into a new doctor’s office and be all accommodation-note-seeking, so…how did this work for you?

    2. Thlayli*

      I’ve never had a problem getting doctors to give me a note if needed. However it seems like the problem might be related to the fact you don’t have a diagnosis?

  225. oxygen*

    I reached out to a former boss to inquire about job opportunities. We exchanged several emails, talked about my situation and priorities and he told me he wanted to help and would back to me when he reaches something.

    Should I and how can I reach back to him to inquire about it again? I would really love to go back to the company.

    1. Sarah G*

      If you haven’t already, send him an updated resume. Beyond that, it kind of depends on your relationship with him, but he said he wants to help so take him at his word. If you are between jobs (or miserable at your current job) and intensively job searching, I think it’s fine to check in with him once a month or so for a couple months. You could email him back (with your resume, or just to respond to his last email that he will get back to you if he sees something), and say something like, “Thank you for your time, and for willingness to keep your eye out for opportunities that might be a good match. If it’s okay with you, I’d love to check in once a month or so to keep you posted on my job search and stay on your radar.”

      If it’s a less intensive job search, I’d make it quarterly instead of monthly.

    2. Sarah G*

      Oh wait, I just noticed your last sentence about wanting to go back to the company, and thought you were just networking with him in general. If you’re ONLY interested in going back to that same company, most of the advice stays the same, but if that’s the case I wouldn’t check in with him more than a couple more times total, over the next few months, and then leave it at that.

  226. NervousPA*

    Hoping someone in higher ed/academia can guide me on program/curriculum review process. I’ve recently taken over a position as the program administrator and one of my duties is program review coordination. How do I get faculty members to submit their deliverables on time without nagging? I just started at this job so I don’t know each faculty member’s working style is like. How do I build rapport? I don’t want to screw up because my predecessor left unexpectedly and higher ups want to get this review process off their plate within this fiscal year….

  227. 1st time poster*

    Not sure if it’s too late to post to this Friday thread, but i need some serious advice. I was fired yesterday from a job I’ve had for 3 1/2 years. It was a position that really doesn’t exist anywhere else in this industry and i had the exact skill set for it. As the company grew the workload became too much fir me and things were slipping even though i brought up the issue multiple times. About a year ago after the owner blew up at me and i fought back, they brought over someone from a different department with no background in this to be my boss. He helped out for a little while and they brought another woman in to the department to work with me. I trained her and she took over all quoting while i still handled everything else. The boss then stepped out for about three months while he trained his replacement in his old dept. Helping us very little. He then came back to our dept full time and i sort of thought things were okay until 6 months ago when they without warning switched my role with the other woman and i took over her stuff. It was like a demotion for me. I had 1 sort of review in that time which i pushed for and it was basically here’s what we want you to do so we can actually review in 4 more months. The second review never came. Things deteriorated between me and the other 2, she would ask my advice several times a day and i would pick up her slack because there was too much work. They began to have meetings i was never involved in and he would send me terse emails even though he sat 2 desks away. He told me several times he thought i didn’t respect him. I was job hunting but not finding much. Anyway a job blew up while i was on vacation i was blamed for all of it. I did make some mistakes on it but was not the only one. Icame back from vacation to an extremly hostile atmosphere and on Thursday after lunch i was called into a room with the cfo and biss and told they were “reorganizing” and i was being let go immediately. Long story to say this place wss very dysfunctiinal and toxic. They have a huge turnover rate and the owner and president manage by yelling.
    Im devastated not to leave this place but to think i did such a terrible jib i got fired. How do you reassess and figure out how much was your mistakes and not working the way they wanted me to, and how much was just the toxic workplace. Im not returning to this industry, im going to take my skills somewhere else but i feel beat up and defeated. At the same time i want to learn from my mistakes so i don’t repeat them.

    1. Summerful*

      Oh no, what a mess, I’m so sorry that you’re hurting and being so hard on yourself too! Here are my suggestions:
      1) It sounds like you were (on paper, anyway) laid off due to re-organization, which means you should file for unemployment benefits. Do it right away as it can take some time to process! Unless you were fired for blatant misconduct, you should be eligible for unemployment, so if they fight you on this talk to a lawyer or some other type of expert.
      2) Toxic workplaces can skew your view of everything and make you question your own value. As for the questions in your last paragraph, there anyone who works there whom you trust and can get their perspective on things? Or if not, what about someone from a previous workplace, or any type of mentor in your life? Someone who knows you, values you, and will be honest with you. Based on your report, it sounds like this was mostly a toxic set-up that ensnared you in such a way you couldn’t succeed, regardless of your talents and skills.
      3) It will get better! Right now, this is all raw and fresh. Be kind to yourself, figure out your next steps, and seek support and guidance from people you trust. You will also need professional references, so talk to any trusted former colleagues who could act in this capacity for you. Or, if you were in school recently, professors could be references.

    2. Thlayli*

      It sounds like they very deliberately managed you out after you had an argument with the boss. It also sounds like an awful place to work.

      I know it doesn’t seem like it now, but it might be for the best that you’re out of there. I hope you find a new job soon.

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      The first part of your story sounds eerily similar to what I went through a few years ago. I was one of three people hired to create a new department to support an expanding program. Things started out well. The work load was well balanced and the person who was in charge was looking at the anticipated growth patterns. A 4th position was added about four months after the initial 3 of us were hired.

      Then it all went to hell because the person in charge left and the people who took over did not understand either the nuances of what we did nor the importance of what we were doing. Over the next year, the numbers we were supporting tripled, but they refused to hire more people or give us any kind of support. When we expressed concerns about not getting things done, we were told that we “could work as much overtime as we wanted”.

      In March, I took my supervisor into a room and I said “this is not sustainable” and talked about the various things I was doing and how it was basically two full time jobs. I flat out said “this is just going to get worse and things are going to fall through the cracks. I need help.”

      I got no help and I got fired in October because, guess what? Things fell through the cracks. I think I spent the first month basically sleeping and doing nothing else. I’d been working 10-12 hour days and was just completely defeated by the whole experience.

      My advice:
      1. give yourself time to wallow/feel your feelings
      2. ask your friends/former colleagues to tell you what they think you’ve done well
      3. when you are interviewing for new positions, ask questions about the workload and how it is evaluated so you can avoid getting into this situation again

      You are a valuable person who has a lot to offer a potential employer. Don’t forget that.

      1. 1st time poster*

        Thank you both for the advice. Im am smarting righr now and will take some time to relax. My kids are still home from school so i can be with them. I did talk to some of the ladies i was friends with and asked one who i know will be honest for some advice. In the meantime i guess ill start searching.

        1. Summerful*

          Good luck! Hope you get a fresh start soon. Enjoy your children in the meantime! And remember not to base your professional self-worth on your experience at this place. I think you will look back at this a year from now and be grateful you were let go.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Not sure if you will see this.
      I don’t think now is a good time to reassess this situation. You might find a couple ideas but I think your strongest ideas will come when you land a job at a healthy workplace and you are able to compare how things are handled.

      Hang on to the fact that just because an employer wants you to work a certain way does not automatically mean that it’s correct, ethical or legal. Also hang on to the fact that toxic workplaces muddy the waters in such a manner that some questions can never be fully resolved and for immediate answers there may not be any.

      Since they have huge turnover rate and they manage by yelling, my bet is that it’s not you. When most people are in a calm and orderly workplace will perform much, much better than they would in a chaotic, toxic environment. Part of the reason for this is the people in the toxic environment use too much brain space trying to figure out how to protect themselves as opposed to actually focusing on the work.

      The way it looks to me is that you went on vacation and the place fell apart. So they needed a scapegoat to avoid being held accountable themselves. You were just a natural fit. These people probably go home and spank small children and kick puppies. They are that type of people. So no, you will not win with this people, no matter what you do it will be wrong. Your best bet would to be work on training your brain that you do not need approval/recognition for a boss who is never happy with your work and blames you for everything. Whatever failures you had at this job, your boss had 100 times that.

  228. Elizabeth Blergh!*

    Where are you? Looking for an update on your job search. Hope you have been MIA from here because you are busy with a new job.

    1. CMG*

      She posted last week (or the week before?) that she’s still looking. She’s been using a different handle, which I won’t include here out of respect for her desire to remain more anonymous. I haven’t noticed any posts from her since last weekend (might have just missed them, I don’t always read comments closely during the week), but I, too, hope that’s for positive work-related reasons.

      1. #MaybeElizabethCanSpeakForHerself*

        Thanks CMG, but a bit confused why you think she wants to remain anonymous. Did she say that? I go through this site pretty thoroughly every day, but I must have missed her new ‘name’. Seems weird you would think she doesn’t want to be recognised. She’s just talking about her job search! Whatever; I was just hoping she would respond and let us know what’s happening, considering she has spent a number of years on this site talking openly about her life, personal issues, medical issues, fears, expectations, hopes, dreams and of course her many jobs & job search issues, etc.

        1. #SheCanAndHasButYouWerentListeningItSeems*

          She dud indeed say that, on more than one thread in past posts. There was an issue with her social media and posts here being connected, iirc, and for the sake of her anonymity she is no longer posting under that name. She will not, therefore, be responding to posts addressing her by that name her as that would defeat the point. CMG was speaking accurately and factually, so I’m not sure why you felt the need to be a snotty jerk to them!

          1. CMG*

            Thank you, I’m glad I’m not the only one who found that response to be a little out of left field.

        2. CMG*

          Wow. What an odd response. What do you imagine I would possibly have to gain from making up a story about another commenter changing her username?

  229. Minerva*

    I’ve been lurking for a few weeks (came on here to read up on the Pantyhose Debate as part of my job interview prep) and wanted to say that I GOT A NEW JOB and I’m giving my notice on Monday. The timing is great because they want me to start on the 27th, so I can give two weeks not and then have a week off before my son’s wedding on the 24th. Thanks for all the tips and the laughs!

    1. Tabby Baltimore*

      Glad you came out of hiding to give us the good news! Best of luck going forward.

  230. Trixie*

    Subscription boxes. I’ve had BeautyFix from the DermStore for a few months and overall enjoy the skin/hair care products at reasonable $26/mo. or so. Am now looking at Maple Blume but it’s $120/bimonthly? Yes, full size products but that would be a serious splurge for me. May try one time purchase and see if it’s worth adding to my monthly budget.

  231. Rick*

    Just want to vent about a recruiter interaction I had.

    I’m a data scientist, so I hear from a lot of recruiters. Since I know how frustrating it is to not hear back from a company after an interview, I try to reply to recruiters who contact me. Since I enjoy my current job a great deal, I either send a “thanks for reaching out, but I’m happy with my current position” note, or try to connect them with someone else I know who may be looking, if I know anyone who is.

    In most cases, I don’t receive a response. At most, the reply will be “thanks for letting me know.” But yesterday I got this:

    “Very disappointed to hear that. I ran your profile by the hiring manager, and they were very interested. But if you’re truly happy where you are, I can respect that.”

    I’ll forget about it in a day or so, but I think it’s rude to say you’re “disappointed” in me because I’m happy where I am now. The interaction was a cold email — I don’t work with this person, and I didn’t commit to anything. Nobody owes anybody anything in this scenario.

    1. Forking great username*

      While I think this was a weird email, I think you’re reading too much into the word disappointed. Disappointed is just a feeling; the “in you” part you added on afterwards wasn’t actually in his email, and changes the tone/meaning in a way I doubt the recruiter intended.

      1. Ron McDon*

        Agreed – I read it that they were disappointed for themselves as they thought you’d be a great addition to their team, not that they were disappointed in you.

        I think they meant it as a compliment, but obviously a bit ambiguous in the wording.

  232. TryingNotToCountChickensThatHaven'tHatched*

    Something medium strange I’d like to share: I think someone reformatted my resume at a company I applied to. I recently had an interview that went pretty well (fingers crossed I get the position) and noticed that the copies they had of my resume looked drastically different. I’m pretty sure everything was there since they asked some very detailed questions but just thought that was a little strange. I’ve already met with the HR manager at this company and she definitely had my current resume with her. My partner thinks that she liked me and made some tweaks to help me out with the big wigs at the top. I’m trying not to read too much into it but I’m quite hoping he’s right! I know nothing about the hiring side of things and am trying to manage my expectations…but this would be a game changer for me, so I think I’m clinging onto everything I can! :)

    1. Summerful*

      This is more of a thing with external recruiters tweaking peoples’ resumes, but I wouldn’t read anything into it one way or another. Maybe the hiring manager even asks that everyone’s resume be formatted a certain way for easy reading, or even just a list of experience for each candidate in a simpler format….who knows? Anyway, good luck, hope you get the job!

  233. SpchTch*

    How common are digital interviews? I am a high school speech/drama teacher and want to prepare a unit on interview skills. I’ve read some articles about interviews that are conducted not through Skype but by answering questions into a webcam and then submitting them. Is this a trend? If it is, I think I need to incorporate something to prepare my students for this type of interaction.

    1. Trixie*

      I am in HR office in higher education setting and we use this all the time. Whether faculty or staff position, this is a great way to present 2-6 questions for applicants and forward completed results to search committee or hiring manager. We allow up to three attempts and maximum three minutes per question. Candidates should focus on questions and think about the responses before recording. Thinking about testing the equipment for sound and picture quality.
      What is never impressive or encouraging is when candidates wait until the last minute to complete and have technical issues which are almost always user error because they are rushed for time.
      Also, some of our departments (Music, Theatre, Debate, etc) often specify including a YouTube or other link with their application materials.

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