open thread – May 3-4, 2019

by Alison Green on May 3, 2019

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Dr Horrible*

    Just got an interview with a non-profit I applied to! However, when I replied-all to the email confirming I’d attend, I received this out-of-office reply from one of the HR people who was CC’d:

    “I’m out of the office until Tuesday 7th May, when what passes for normal service should be resumed.”

    …Does that really mean what I think it means? Seems very unprofessional. Not sure whether it’s supposed to be a joke.

    Red flag, right? To me this is a red flag.

    1. Nuna Bizniz*

      I’m reading this as they don’t have normal service now but will on the 7th. Am I missing something?

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        It’s the “what passes for” normal service. Implying that their ‘normal’ isn’t very good.

    2. ghostwriter*

      I mean, I would love to work in an office that embraces sarcasm like that. I don’t think it’s a red flag at all, unless it’s in parallel with other unprofessional things happening.

      1. Dr Horrible*

        I mean, I would be totally fine with it if it was an internal away message. It’s more that this is an HR manager who deals with outside applicants to jobs.

        1. Semaj*

          Do they, though?

          They were CC’ed on your message to be kept in the loop, but you could be incorrect about the frequency with which they deal with external clients. They may very well expect their message to go to internal recipients 99% of the time.

          There’s just too much you don’t know to read into this, IMO.

          1. Someone Else*

            But it’s usually possible to literally set separate internal vs external OOO autoreplies at the same time. So if she put this up as the only autoreply, she knows it can/will go to external recipients.

            1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

              “So if she put this up as the only autoreply, she knows it can/will go to external recipients.”

              They may or may not know. I have colleagues who either don’t know or don’t remember to set an end date on their autoreplies, so even after they return to the office, I’m still receiving autoreplies from them. So, it’s possible this employee just doesn’t know how to set separate messages for internal and external audiences.

        2. Marion Ravenwood*

          I wonder if they did actually mean to set this as an out-of-office just for internal people (although that’s still not great) and accidentally set it for external emails as well; I know Outlook has an option where you can set different OOOs for different groups. It’s not super-professional, but I wouldn’t necessarily call it a red flag, especially as someone who’s worked in non-profits and knows what absolute chaos they can be under the surface – I’d just chalk it up to user error, especially if (as it seems) this is the first instance.

          1. Amber T*

            That was my thought. I have different ones for internal/external (external just says to contact my boss if there’s an emergency, internal people already know who that is).

            I wouldn’t necessarily see it as a red flag, but maybe be on the look out for the office’s sense of humor/culture and see if it’s something you’d fit with with.

      2. Falling Diphthong*

        Yeah, I’m not seeing anything but a mildly humorous out of office message. And as Semaj notes, they are not in a role where, say, clients would normally be emailing back and forth with them.

        1. Frustrated In DC*

          I love when humor is used in out of office messages. Don’t read too much into it, unless you aren’t a person who finds sarcasm/humor funny. See how things go.

          1. AnotherKate*

            “unless you aren’t a person who finds humor funny” –it’s 10 degrees cooler in this shade and I’m here for it.

          2. Aggretsuko*

            I used to know someone who had an away message along the lines of “If you have an emergency: (a) there are no emergencies in this line of work, (b) Google for “goats in trees”…. etc. to basically chill out until she could respond.

      4. Public Sector Manager*

        My first reaction was to laugh at the out-of-office message. So I agree that if the message is the only concern, it’s not a concern at all.

      5. Kj*

        I once worked with a high powered doctor who left his out of office in olde english. It was funny if you knew him, but I’m sure some who didn’t thought he was unprofessional.

    3. Daniel*

      Eh. I wouldn’t say anything like that myself…but I don’t know if I would call it a red flag. It’s very trite, so if you have low tolerance for trite humor, maybe it’s a red flag.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        I think it would depend on the industry. If it were a creative one, I’d probably be fine with it. But when I worked in tech services for the financial industry, my OOO was straight as an arrow because I knew client banks would sometime see it.

        I’m with everyone who would assume this was meant to be internal and a joke.

    4. Anon for Layoffs*

      Wut?? Hahaha! Only innocent thing I can think of is she has the same message for internal v external emails and it’s supposed to be a joke for her co-workers. Otherwise, IDK.

      1. Dr Horrible*

        Yeah, that’s what I thought – maybe an internal away message got mixed up with an external away message?

    5. Overeducated*

      I think it’s funny! Wouldn’t fly in my workplace but we’re very formal about communications.

    6. A Simple Narwhal*

      Meh, it’s not great to have on your auto-reply, but for me personally it wouldn’t be a big enough deal on its own to cancel.

      I wouldn’t call it a red flag, maybe yellow if it really rubs you the wrong way (and that’s fine! Maybe a jokey culture isn’t for you, and it’s totally fine if that’s not an environment you want to work in). Seems like a misplaced joke to me, but definitely use it in your overall appraisal when you go in for the interview.

      1. Antilles*

        Yeah, that’s where I land too. It’s worthy of an eyeroll, but I wouldn’t take it as anything more than that.

    7. Annie on a Mouse*

      Yeah… That’s not great. It could just be one person on the staff who has a bad attitude, but I’d be wondering why management hadn’t stepped in—a statement like that in an OoO message is pretty unprofessional. Then again, it could also be that person’s attempt at a joke. Still not professional, but less indicative of a major culture problem.

      I don’t know that it’s enough of a red flag to cancel the interview, but I’d definitely make sure to ask questions about culture and (to the extent you can put out subtle feelers) morale. Would your role require you to work closely with HR?

      1. Jadelyn*

        I disagree that it’s inherently “unprofessional” – some workplace cultures are more jokey in nature, more casual about communication, and this kind of message would give someone a brief chuckle when they saw it and that’s all.

        It might be an in-joke about something, too – I could see that if their HR department is understaffed at the moment due to people being out on leave or something, and it’s a mildly self-deprecating dig at the situation and having to try to keep up with everything with less support than usual.

        I’m honestly kinda baffled by people seeing this as any kind of flag at all. It’s just a bit of silliness. The only thing it tells you is that the culture is one that’s open to jokes and mild teasing like that. Now, if you’re not interested in working somewhere like that, then that could be a sign that this place would be a poor fit for you – but I really don’t feel like there’s anything inherently flaggy about that message.

        1. MsM*

          Ditto. At most, I’d take it as a mild warning that this person probably gets a lot of email, and phone calls might be better if you need something urgently.

          1. time for lunch*

            Yeah, I see this as “I’m doing the best I can in our imperfect world, as we all are.” I would vastly prefer this very human, wry co-worker (and the workplace that would welcome them) over someone who would *Stepford face* NEVER EVER JOKE ABOUT LESS THAN EXCEPTIONAL SERVICE.

        2. Aurion*

          I am a wiseass, but I keep it on the down-low when I’m communicating with external customers; I raised my eyebrow at this. Someone with a more casual dress code often have to dress up when external contacts or customers are visiting, right? Same idea. I’m all for light joking between coworkers but not to external contacts because that joke might not land well, and you don’t want to convey to external contacts that your workplace is a madhouse even if it is.

          That said, this might be a case of the HR person making a mistake with their OOO message and this joking one was meant for internal contacts only. I would consider this a yellow flag.

        3. soon 2be former fed*

          This kind or snark would never fly in my government office. Not the place for humor. I would consider it interesting and wonder if the place was chaotic.

          1. Jadelyn*

            Going from “humorous away message” to “wonder if the place is chaotic” seems to me to be quite the leap. Maybe it’s just a matter of what you’re used to.

    8. irene adler*

      Well, maybe. Go on the interview and see what else occurs.

      There could be all kinds of innocent reasons for such a response, including not realizing how someone’s snarky sense of humor won’t be readily understood by outsiders. Maybe this was an inside joke for other office members or someone who emails them regularly. In fact, if this is the case, this person would be mortified when they realize how this played for those not familiar with the situation.

      4. soon 2be former fed*

        I disagree. It’s a snarky, unprofessional remark to go to external contacts.

    10. De Minimis*

      Bit unprofessional, not exactly a red flag but may give you an idea of the culture. Then again, it may just be the person who created the outgoing message. Hopefully you’ll get a better idea at the interview.

    11. Lucette Kensack*

      If it’s bugging you, I’d consider it a yellow flag (or pink flag or whatever color the taxonomy of flags would consider an indicate to note something and move on).

      It could indicate a seriously toxic environment where staff are outwardly, publicly snarking about the quality of their work. Or it could be mild, silly sarcasm and self-denigration.

      I’m a little surprised that your reaction is so strong (or perhaps you are using “red flag” differently than I do; to me, “red flag” means “slam on the brakes, there’s a big problem here,” not “hm, this is odd, I wonder what that’s about”).

      1. Dr Horrible*

        Mmm, yes, I think I am using it differently than most people seem to assume – I was using it as “that’s a weird/unprofessional thing to do, better watch for other weird things in the interview in case it’s indicative of a bad culture.” Whereas others seem to interpret it as a “cancel the interview” type thing. But I’m not in the US, so could be a language difference! Or could also be a me difference :)

        2. Lucette Kensack*

          I don’t think it’s just you — I think there is a wide variation in how people use the term.

          The etymology (is that the right word when we’re talking about an idiom?) of the term comes from car racing, where a red flag means “everyone stop, something dangerous happened, the race is on hold.” So that’s how I think of it — but others clearly use it as “flag this as something to pay closer attention to.”

    12. Fergus*

      You think that is bad, I got this today.

      Hi Michael,

      Thank you for your interest in ********. I am happy to inform you that you have made it to the next step in the process! Congratulations!

      The next phase includes a 30-minute pre-employment assessment. Our priority is to ensure that all our team members are set up for success, and excel during their time here. We find this assessment gives us an additional avenue to assess your readiness and compatibility with the role you are applying for. In fact, it is so valuable to us, everyone at ******, from our CEO to our Interns, has completed the assessment! Check out these tips to ensure you’re ready to go.

      Here is what to Expect:

      The assessment is split up in to 2 parts – cognitive and personality – and will take 30 minutes total to complete.
      For the Cognitive Assessment:
      US & UK Candidates: You have 15 minutes to answer 50 questions across 3 question categories: math and logic, verbal ability, and spatial reasoning. The goal is to get as many answers correct as possible.
      Australia, Singapore, China Candidates: You have 20 minutes to answer 40 questions across 2 question categories: math and logic, and spatial reasoning. The goal is to get as many answers correct as possible.
      Don’t spend too much time on any one question. To get through all 50 questions, that’s an average of 18 seconds per question.
      There is no penalty for a wrong answer, so if you aren’t sure of the answer after 1 minute, just make your best guess.
      You may use a pen and paper. You are NOT permitted to use calculators or any other problem-solving device such as Google.
      We do verify test results with a follow up assessment if you move further in the process.
      For the Personality Assessment:
      You are responding to statements about yourself; answer in a way that most accurately describes you. Please don’t feel pressured to answer how you “think” the system wants you to answer.
      There are no right or wrong answers.
      This section is not timed, but will take about 10 – 15 minutes to complete
      After the assessment, our hiring team will review the results and follow up with you on the next steps.
      Eeecks! We understand that testing can be stressful. Below are some resources to consider if you really want to ensure you’re prepared. These are only suggestions, and by no means do you have to practice before taking the assessment.

      JobTestPrep.com: This is a paid service to take a simulated assessment with results
      JobFlare: This is a free app that gets the gears in your brain spinning with 6 mini games that measure the same skills the cognitive assessment: math and logic, verbal ability, and attention to detail
      Criteria: See examples of the assessment from the test makers themselves
      We take many factors into consideration when we make hiring decisions, including this assessment. Make sure you have 30 minutes set aside with no distractions. The best thing you can do is prepare yourself as much as possible. We are here to set you up for success! If you have any questions let us know by reaching out to your Recruiter, or emailing: talent@*******.com.

      ______________________________________________________________________________________________

      Please use the following information to access your test.

      Test Event ID: LOG7707AWUX

      Website : http://www.ondemandassessment.com/home/index/company/107577

      ______________________________________________________________________________________________

      Disability/Special Accommodations: In the event that you have a disability or require special accommodations, please notify your Recruiter or talent@*******.com

      Note: Please use Chrome, FireFox, Safari, Internet Explorer 8 or newer to complete this test event. Please do not use your mobile phone.

      For Help, please click the orange ‘Get Help’ button located at the bottom of the Testing Center screen.

      Thank you again,

      The ******* Talent Team

      *************************************************************************************************

      Please do not reply to this email. ******* will not receive the reply. Instead, please email: talent@*******.com

      2. Linda Evangelista*

        OOF. I would have looked at the sheer length of the email and quit at “cognitive and personality assessment”. Hard pass.

        1. Zennish*

          This. I’d be out of the running simply because I would have deleted it before I actually read all that.

      4. Marina Magdalena*

        A little perplexed at the split in categories between UK/US and… Australia? What?

        1. Environmental Compliance*

          Right? I was assuming at first read that it was for non-English speakers, maybe, but then Australia got lumped in.

          1. Fact & Fiction*

            Could it be…factoring in average internet speeds in those nations or something? Other than that, it seems super odd!

      5. Elizabeth West*

        Gross.

        I got one of the personality test things–you literally had to apply THROUGH the personality assessment website. It was one of those “choose all the adjectives that apply to you; now choose the ones you think you need to succeed at the job” things. I sucked it up and did it because I need a job.

    14. JJ Bittenbinder*

      I put it at “weird but not a dealbreaker.” I’d keep it as one data point and gather others during the interviews.

    15. Weegie*

      I think it’s hilarious. Definitely someone with a sense of humour. A bit trite, as someone else has commented, and maybe actually intended for internal use only, but I’d rather work in a place where people gently poke fun at themselves than take things entirely seriously all of the time.

      The thing you *really* want to worry about is colleagues who are very correct all of the time but also completely useless. I mean, a truly incompetent person would never write something like that as their out-of-office.

    16. Princess of Pure Reason*

      It made me think of a quote from Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy: ““We are now cruising at a level of two to the power of twenty-five thousand to one against and falling, and we will be restoring normality just as soon as we are sure what is normal anyway.”

      I’d probably read it as intended sarcasm that isn’t clear due to lack of context. In the extreme, in the other direction, someone could be very passive aggressively trying to say something about the state of the company.

      Wouldn’t call it a red flag – the interview may add the necessary context.

      1. Nessun*

        That is exactly where my head went – “hmmm, must be a Hitchhikers fan!” I’d have assumed it was a weird sense of humour (like my own), and just proceeded as usual.

    17. Akcipitrokulo*

      To me, it’s someone trying to add levity to their message. Maybe needs a bit of advice about internal vs external out of office messages… but no, I wouldn’t see it as a red flag. It’s, at worst, a misplaced joke.

    18. Exhausted Trope*

      Coming from an HR person, I think the response is a tad unprofessional but I also find it funny. I don’t think it’s necessarily a red flag though.

    19. Federal Employee 167590*

      This shouldn’t be a red flag. Maybe something to note, but that’s it. For all you know, this person could be excellent and this is just a little self-depreciating humor that is acceptable within this particular office’s culture. In fact, you would hope that someone who really does provide poor service to their colleagues would be self-aware enough to not use this type of message, though that’s not always the case. Unless you see other real red flags, or you really don’t want to work in an office with this level of informality, I think you’re reading too much into this.

      (Which is normal since when we’re interviewing we really don’t have all of the information we want to make what is really a big decision, so we tend to try to read between the lines of every interaction – this person was running late today, so it must be an extremely disorganized office, major red flag! Or, there was a joke that didn’t quite land right with me, so it must be a horribly unprofessional office, major red flag! I think the key is to take everything together before we jump to conclusions.)

    20. LaurenB*

      The head of IT in my workplace sends emails like this. No one else, out of a few hundred people, does the same. If you got an email from him and expected us all to have senses of humour and a penchant for carefully crafting emails based on that sample of one, you’d be sorely disappointed.

    21. PB*

      No, I don’t think so. I think it was just a failed attempt at humor, but not a red flag.

    22. Parenthetically*

      I immediately snort-laughed at this. Pretty clearly a joke, IMO.

      I’m amused by people’s different takes, because to me, this would indicate an office where people don’t take themselves too seriously and wouldn’t be a red flag at all.

    23. Lilysparrow*

      Of course it’s a joke. If it were serious they wouldn’t say it.

      It’s only a problem if you think having an HR person with a sense of humor is a bad thing. If you are very put off by this as an indicator of the corporate culture, you should look closely at other indicators of whether you’d be happy there.

      But if it’s a good job otherwise, it would just be foolish to take this as a major red flag.

    24. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I love it and find it hilarious. To me, it signals a casual, warm, humorous office. If that’s not what you’re looking for, it might be a flag that you could be out of sync with this particular culture.

    25. That Would be a Good Band Name*

      I’d say whether or not this is a red flag is entirely up to what sort of culture you want to be in. I think this is great and I have the same sarcastic sort of humor. Others prefer a much more professional work space and this would not work for them.

    26. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Are you likely to be working with HR? If not… well, I suspect that their HR staff department is running a little too lean and they’re starting to get slap-happy about it.

    27. Language Lover*

      Nope. Not a red flag. At tops a yellow depending on how serious you read it. I don’t read it as serious. I saw it as a joke.

      It was probably meant to go internally only but because you were CC’d by someone internally, you got it too.
      You can certainly ask about their crazy week at the interview but this is not a cancel this sign IMO.

    28. Llama Face!*

      I didn’t know Bad Horse ran a nonprofit. ;)

      But more seriously- I’m with the other commenters who think it’s a bit flippant/sarcastic but not a red flag.

    29. Evil HR Person*

      I think it’s hilarious! Unprofessional to send to non-coworker contacts, though…

    31. A tester, not a developer*

      I’d assume they messed up the email options that allow a different message for inside and outside the office, or replies vs. new messages.

    32. Avery*

      Your standard for a red flag is very low, then. This is barely worth noting to me, and certainly nothing to worry about. It’s pretty clear that it’s a slightly sarcastic joke, not a serious gripe about their job.

      But if this is enough to make you feel this way, you’re probably not going to be a good fit for a culture where this is fine. I see it more as a red flag for them that you are reacting like this, honestly.

    33. LGC*

      …whoo!

      Although, I’m not quite sure this is a red flag. In Outlook at least, you can set internal and external OOO messages. The default, at least in my organization, is to use the internal message for all senders, so the HR person could have just been careless and not set a separate, more acceptable external message.

      I’d call it a yellow flag, at most. It’s slightly alarming (to use a turn of phrase Alison used yesterday) because this is an HR person’s OOO. On the other hand…I’m not going to lie, I’m okay with a somewhat snarky HR person. Although it’s an interesting window into the culture you’ve gotten – or at least that HR person’s personality!

      1. LGC (I go by Barebecue IRL)*

        (Man, 70 responses, and I think I’m the first to point out that it could be an accident?)

        I might as well put in my OOOs for when I took off a couple of weeks ago for comparison. Here’s my internal (details changed):

        Hi everyone,

        I’m off this week – I’ll be running the Boston Marathon on Monday, April 15! (If you want to track me, my number is 54321, and I’m starting at 10:02 AM.) Other than that, I’ll just be taking some time off.

        Happy Easter to those who are celebrating – I’ll be returning on Monday, April 22.

        -Princehoward

        And my external:

        Hello,

        I am currently out of office, and will be returning Monday, April 22 at 8 AM. Please contact the following individuals for any immediate inquiries (as always, the company phone number is (999) 555-1234):

        Llama Grooming (including employees)
        · Jizyah Shorts (Grooming team lead) – jshorts(at)org, ext. 654
        · Chastity Gooch-Fant (VP of llama presentation) – cgooch(at)org, ext. 789 (main office)/732 (satellite)

        Llama Presentation Billing
        · Storm Duck (business analyst) – sduck(at)org, ext. 732
        · Pope Thrower (COO) – pthrower(at)org, ext. 808
        · Chastity Gooch-Fant

        Of course, you can always contact me directly for anything not urgent, and I will respond as soon as I am able.

        Thanks, and have a wonderful day.

        -Princehoward B. Yee

        (Why yes, I read way too much Deadspin for my own good, why do you ask?)

        1. Marina Magdalena*

          Maaaaybe not use Jizyah Shorts for your external? It’s a bit crass. Otherwise it’s pretty funny, but yeah, as a woman, having sexual references thrown in my face by a man is a little much.

          2. LGC*

            In my defense, that is someone’s actual name! (The real Ms. Shorts is a beauty queen from Houston.) I’m referencing the Name of the Year Final Four in that message.

            (The name I used for myself was also in NOTY, although it lost to Pope Thrower in the first round.)

    34. Aggretsuko*

      I feel like we need that up at my office today. We are extremely short staffed, some computer issue came up, and there is literally nobody left here that can actually answer and help with those problems.

    35. Jamies*

      It’s just some tongue in cheek humor. Red flag if you don’t want to work somewhere that has that type of humor in emails. Otherwise no.

    36. MommyMD*

      It’s jokey. Which is kind of off for a work place. But I would not worry too much. They are trying to be funny.

    37. Dr. Anonymous*

      Or could be someone using a figure of speech without actually understanding what it means.

    38. CatMintCat*

      Big green flag for me.

      Humanity and a bit of humour are very important to me.

    39. Boomerang Girl*

      I guess I am the minority in thinking this is a red flag, though not necessarily a deal breaker. It’s funny, and not meant in any bad way. However, if I were the head of the non-profit, I would not want that message on anything representing my team.As a donor, it would give me slight pause about the professionalism of the individual. A culture of fun is good, but even a suggestion of complacency is not. More importantly, the fact that OP was concerned that it might be a red flag means that it requires some follow up. Do you see any other signs of complacency or apathy? If not, then give it a small chuckle and continue moving forward.

  2. Sunflower*

    Has anyone used a service or other resource to get an idea of a next career step? I want to make a career change and I know what I’m looking for and what I want to avoid in my next job. I feel like a lot of this stuff can be quite fluffy or useless so I’m wondering if there are any reliable resources out there.

    1. Mr. Tyzik*

      When I was laid off, I was given paid 6 months with a service. I didn’t find much help from them. Their resume “rewrite” was changing the formatting on my submission (thanks, Alison, for the resources to write a great resume!) and they gave me some pointers for my Linked-In Page which I didn’t follow (they wanted me to hit up everyone I knew for a rec, and I felt that was too intrusive).

      The most valuable resource was the job board. I found several potential leads there, but not anything earthshattering that I couldn’t find on LI or Indeed. I ultimately found my job through LI when a company recruiter reached out to me.

      Honestly, I’m glad I didn’t pay for any of the placement service given what little I got out of it. I found Alison’s advice to be much more valuable.

      1. ThatGirl*

        I got three months of outplacement services after my layoff and honestly, even though a lot of it was just pep talks, the resume service really helped, and I did make a connection there that led straight to my new job.

        1. Mr. Tyzik*

          Good! I’m glad it worked for you – it may have just been the service I was with.

    2. Falling Diphthong*

      I know some people have gotten really good advice from career counselors or life coaches, pointing them at fields that weren’t on their radar but for which they are well-fitted; it varies widely, and local recommendations are your way to go.

      1. OtterB*

        I used to work for an organization that did this. I wasn’t one of the counselors – I did background computer stuff – but I sent my husband there when he was career changing and my daughter when she was heading off to college. A lot of the value depends on the knowledge of the individual counselors. If you want in-depth specific industry knowledge, they may or may not have it. If you want, as Falling Diphthong says, some ideas for fields that might suit you that you haven’t considered, or help weighing some possibilities, I’d recommend it.

    3. Earthwalker*

      I was laid off after many years with my company and had totally forgotten anything I ever knew about career planning in the outside world. Luckily we were given career counseling as a benefit. I expected advice on updating a resume and interview dress and so on, but the focus was on deciding what I did and didn’t want from a job and how to decide whether to accept an offer or pass on it, things I had hardly thought about in my panic to grab the first decently-paid opportunity that presented itself. It was more helpful and thought provoking than I expected.

    4. AudreyParker*

      I haven’t had any luck with the resources I’ve tried so far but YMMV. Most have had similar types of exercises to go through in terms of looking at values, interests etc which I’d already done, but no help as far as actual suggestions of things I might want to consider. I would LOVE to find someone who provided input!

    5. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      YMMV, but I’m an Employment Counselor for a Dept of Labor career center in the US, and OMG the stuff I give away for free!

      If you’re in the US, find your local career center … you don’t need to be unemployed to use them. All centers are a bit different in their offerings, but you should be able to do a sit down with someone to sort out what your next steps could be. All at no cost.

      1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

        Your mileage may vary indeed. Where I live, the Department of Labor gives egregiously bad resume and jobseeking advice. It’s sad to say, but much of the work I do in the public library is undoing the damage done by Department of Labor counselors.

      2. AudreyParker*

        Unfortunately, One Stop/America’s Job Center/whatever we’re calling it these days in thte large city where I live is woefully understaffed – my “case manager”/counselor has 500 clients and I couldn’t even get her to reply to my emails most of the time (I eventually gave up, mostly in sympathy for her and her inbox). I did get to meet with her once, and she had some ideas she was going to send over… which never appeared. Understandably, if she has 500+ people to keep track of plus leading (basic) workshops, but absolutely no use to me in my job search. There’s no way to get 1:1 assistance there.

    6. Boomerang Girl*

      My school offered free support for alumni. The career advisor was avery helpful sounding board. Sometimes it’s helpful to get the perspective of a disinterested third party.

  3. Anon for this*

    Apologies for the length! I’m bad at being concise, but I wanted to make sure I didn’t forget anything.

    There’s guy who works in my building in a different department who I never see except passing him in the hallway in the morning. He is leaving for a new job soon in a nearby city. During a huge employee appreciation lunch last week, no one else from my department could go, so I went alone and this guy offered me to sit at his table. The music was deafeningly loud, so I couldn’t really talk (i.e. scream) to anyone besides him since he was right next to me. He was generally nice and we had a conversation that lasted about an hour about various things, though I was a bit put off when he mentioned he was recently divorced and ragged on his ex-wife; he must’ve said “I don’t mean to badmouth her, but…” or some variation at least three times.

    Additionally, I was put off when he told me that when he first met me, he thought I was “someone’s daughter” instead of an employee. I definitely look and sound young, but I wasn’t sure how to take that. I also mentioned offhand that my dad was turning 70 soon and he exclaimed how my parents had me really late like it was a fact. I’m pretty confident I never told him my actual age, so I’m not sure if he really thought I was closer to late teens/early twenties or was just obsessed with how young I was. Also, at the end of that day, he came by my office to tell me he had a nice time talking and that he hoped he didn’t come off like a creep or anything.

    However, since that lunch, I feel like he’s acting too familiar now. Earlier this week, I was talking with someone in our building’s break room and when he walked in, he called me “missy” and jokingly took offense when I forgot something he had mentioned to me during the lunch (there was cake nearby and I asked if he was going to get some; I apparently forgot he doesn’t like cake). He also dramatically mentioned that we talked about this during our “walk” together in a way that made it sound intimate. (By walk, it was looking around at some of the activities they had at the appreciation lunch and then back around to the office.) And yesterday, he also came by my office to say hi quickly, calling me “kiddo” upon greeting me.

    I know there’s nothing inherently wrong with him assuming I’m younger than I actually am, but there’s just something really off-putting about him fixating on it and how chummy he’s now acting. Aside from the two instances above, the lunch was our only conversation. At one point during the lunch, he mentioned he was 40 and said he’d have to get my number before he leaves for his new job, but I don’t want to keep contact with him after he leaves.

    FWIW, a couple years ago, I had a traumatic experience with a man his age who I was very friendly with before he took advantage of me, so maybe that’s playing into my uneasiness. However, even though I think he means well, I’m just unnerved with how he’s been acting. I think part of it it loneliness, but while I absolutely don’t think there’s anything wrong with two adults who are far apart in age being friends, I guess I’m also a bit put-off by the stuff I mentioned above. I’m also trying to figure out how to say no if he does ask for my number before he leaves. I don’t want to be mean, but I’m not interested in staying in contact after his last day.

    1. Clorinda*

      Sounds like your instincts are good and he seems creepy. Don’t give him your number. If he asks for your number: “No, I’d rather not,” and then don’t. He can try to weaponize your female social training against you to make you be nice, but don’t.

        1. Beanie*

          I agree too. Maybe he’s not a creep, but it all reeks of predatorial behaviour. He’s hoping you’ll be too worried about rocking the boat to question him. You could wait him out, but if it’s this bad, it might not be a bad idea to report him to your HR department for getting too personal.

    2. Overeducated*

      At least he’s leaving? Sounds annoying but short term. If he asks for your number you can say something like “oh, you can always reach me at my work email if you need anything!” If he says “no, your personal cell” just act confused and say you’re very responsive at work. If he still doesn’t get it you’ll just have to straight up say “oh no thanks but it was nice working with you” and remember the awkwardness is on him for being pushy.

      1. Cat Fan*

        This is probably how I would handle it. He is coming off as creepy and you do not have to give him your personal phone number. I think I might even change “it was nice working with you” to “it was nice meeting you,” since you didn’t actually work with him.

    3. Psyche*

      It sounds like he knows he came off as a creep and is hoping to push past that. If possible, you can try to push him off by staying firmly professional. If he insists on getting your number, give him your office number. If he says he wants to stay in contact, direct him to Linkedin. Essentially, act like of course he is trying to network. If he pushes then say, “I like to keep work and my personal life separate.” If he keeps trying to push, straight up tell him that you don’t know him well enough to feel comfortable giving him your personal information.

      1. Emi.*

        He’s banking on your automatically being “nice” and accommodating: he says “I hope I’m not coming off as a creep,” and you say “Oh no no no, you’re perfectly fine!” and then boom, he has permission to keep doing what he’s doing, which is being a creep.

        1. blackcat*

          Yup. It’s this! He knows his behavior isn’t okay, so he asks for your approval.
          Slimy.

        2. Psyche*

          Exactly! People who are not being creepy do not feel the need to “hope” they aren’t being creepy.

        3. Lia*

          When people say, “I hope I’m not coming off as a creep” run. They absolutely know what they’re doing and are looking for permission. Your best bet is to call them on it.

          1. Procrastinatin'PastSelf*

            *Trigger warning* Reading this comment reminded me of something that happened shortly before a former co-worker assaulted me. He took off his shirt at one point to show his sunburn (it was in a field of work where you live with your co-workers, so there tends to be more intimacy) and said something like “Not to be weird” or “I hope this isn’t weird”. I thought it was slightly, but also dismissed it in my head, because the way this guy looks, he should have kept the shirt on, so I just told myself it wasn’t sexual. Like a friend of mine says, some guys are very good at intentionally bringing things into a gray zone, so it’s not clear at what point you say “stop” or, “this is weird”. And I agree with Lia that guys who say this know what they’re doing (or at least, the majority of them do), and I think he’s doing this to make you doubt that he’s doing something creepy. Trust your gut, and don’t be nice to this guy because you feel you have to be (or because the first conversation was nice…there are many creeps in this world who can pull off an interesting and non-creepy conversation, at least in the beginning).

      2. MsM*

        Yeah. Since he opened the door to feedback on that, I don’t think it’d be out of line for you to tell him he’s pushing it.

      3. Jenny P*

        There is absolutely no need to give him your number whether he pushes you or not. DO NOT give him your number!!

    4. Rey*

      Good for you for listening to your gut instinct here. You get to choose whatever path a) you can execute and b) meets your needs. It sounds like at this point we’re in freeze-him-out mode until his new job starts. It doesn’t sound like you need to work with him in your role, so just don’t. You don’t have to answer questions like, “how was your weekend” or “remember that one time…”–he is trying to build a rapport and you don’t want to. And if he addresses it head-on, “Why have you gotten so chilly lately?” agree and move on, “You’re right, I have been. I gotta go.” And employ whatever tactic when it comes to your number, except for actually giving it to him–give him a fake number, demure, etc. You don’t own him your number, or anything else for that matter.

      1. Liane*

        Please DO NOT give out a “fake” number or advise anyone else to do so!! OWN your refusal by saying, “Sorry, I don’t give out my number” (and advise others to do this).
        That “Fake” phone number probably belongs to someone else who doesn’t deserve or want to be bothered. Years ago I got a call from some guy who had been given a “fake/made up” number by a woman, but was really MY home number. He became verbally abusive, calling me a liar and worse, when I politely told him he had the wrong number.

        1. NotMyRealName*

          There are quite a few fake numbers that are designed for this use – including these:
          1-888-447-5594: Easter egg number for finishing God of War.
          605-475-6968: Standard rejection hotline.
          866-740-4531: Only responds with “I Am Groot”.
          206-569-5829: “Loser Line.” (If they leave a message, it might get broadcast in a Seattle radio station.

          1. a*

            Thank you, NotMyRealName – I know what numbers I’ll be giving to stores from now on!

          2. JenRN*

            Heard a “loser line” segment in a Lyft the other day. What a horrendous thing to do. Just be direct people.

            1. Quinalla*

              Sometimes you can’t be direct, it isn’t always safe. In this case, I think it is safe to be direct especially since she can make it clear that this is a professional contact only, but there are times when it isn’t safe to directly reject someone. Giving out a fake number like this is a good plan in that case so you make sure it isn’t going to someone’s real number.

              Giving out a fax number would work too, then they get that nice screechy noise!

            2. MommyMD*

              It is terrible. Just have some balls and say “I don’t give out my number” and leave it at that.

              1. Pippa*

                “Have some balls” as advice to a woman dealing with a creepy man is really …something.

              2. Middle School Teacher*

                Clearly you have never been harassed by someone when you refused to give out your number. Maybe be nicer.

          3. JunieB*

            Thank you for this!

            I know people are always saying “Just OWN the rejection!” or “Put the awkwardness back on them!” but depending on the situation, there are times when a straight rejection feels distinctly unsafe. At that point, I say give out a random number if you’ve got to—but numbers like these give you a chance to defuse the situation without inconveniencing anyone else.

              1. JunieB*

                At which point I am no longer alone and cornered, and have options to defend myself.

                I have been in situations where a direct rejection turned violent, once with a colleague, and I will not apologize for making whatever decisions I deem necessary to protect myself, so long as those decisions don’t cause undue harm. The cheesy message played on the rejection hotline isn’t doing undue harm to anyone.

        2. Caramel & Cheddar*

          At least we know the person who gave out your number had a good instinct about this dude, though!

      2. Lilysparrow*

        If he says “why are you so chilly lately,” he is delusional or seriously trying it on.

        The way to answer that is, “We barely know each other.”

        1. Working Hypothesis*

          You’ve repeated that multiple times now, but given absolutely no serious reasons as to why. It’s definitely a bad idea to give out a random number which could be somebody else’s, but there are good reasons why the “official” fake numbers exist. It is not always safe to reject someone in person to their face; if a false number can help ensure that the rejection occurs while you are miles away, it may literally save lives.

    5. Venus*

      Definitely seems inappropriate. He reminds me of the type of guy who seems mostly okay, so you think it’s just awkwardness, until you realize that he’s acted the same way with many other women in the office. If it were me, I would avoid him as much as possible until he leaves. The fact that he has a new job makes it much easier. If for some reason he gets weird and pushy about the phone number then suggest that he gives his to you, and then you can ‘lose’ it, although the best would just be to say that you are too busy.

      Good luck. These things are work are just such a pain!

    6. Not A Manager*

      If he’s leaving soon, I think you can just maintain a polite-but-cool demeanor. Look puzzled when he calls you “kiddo” and the ilk, or have selective hearing about it.

      I’d dodge the request for contact info for sure. Tell him that you don’t ever cross the streams between work life and personal life. “I’m sure you understand.”

    7. Rainy*

      He doesn’t mean well.

      He’s already verging on hitting on you, if not just frankly hitting on you, and if you give him your number he’s going to call and text constantly once he’s out of the job. He made a point of mentioning his divorce to signal he’s available, and he came by to tell you he hoped he didn’t come off like a creep because he is, in fact, a creep, and he knows it and fully intends to escalate once you’re no longer coworkers.

      He’s gross. Go with your gut.

      And ffs, why do men still do this shit. It’s transparent, it’s gross, and it’s so freaking offensive.

      1. Phoenix Wright*

        If I had to take a guess, I’d go with something I read on the internet about email scams. They tend to be so obvious and ridiculous because that way they can ensure to only lure people who may fall for it in the end. They purposely filter out people who are savvy or aware enough to realize it’s a scam and will waste the scammer’s time.

        In OP’s case, it seems to me this guy is using a similar tactic. He’s probably looking for victims (because yes, to me this is borderline predatory) who don’t realize what he’s trying to pull off, or who don’t dare tell him to stop. As many people already said here, I suggest that OP cut contact with this guy as much as possible in the meantime, and don’t give him her number so he can’t reach her after he’s gone.

      4. Grapey*

        “why do men still do this shit”

        because it works if the recipient is interested.

        2. Batgirl*

          Forced teaming only works if you listen to the perpetrator; “We are so close! We have intimate walks! Don’t be mean now and dump me!” Rather than yourself.

          If someone is truly interested

          1. Batgirl*

            you can ask a yes/no question with zero mind games or pressure. Hell you can even do this when you’re not sure of their interest. If you want to go super crazy you can even assure them that a no is acceptable.

        3. MommyMD*

          No. This is far and beyond gauging of interest. This is weird creepy behavior and the majority of men will agree. This guy is a creep.

        4. Observer*

          Interested is not the issue here. In fact, this kind of behavior is designed to avoid the need for interested on the part of the victim.

          Creeps do it because it allows them to push unwilling people into doing what they want. That’s why it’s being tagged as predatory.

    8. C in the Hood*

      IMO, I think he’s being an overly-familiar creep. If he asks for your number, please don’t worry about being “nice”. You owe him nothing. Just say “I don’t like to give out my personal number” period.

    9. Mbarr*

      You’re allowed to feel uncomfortable. He does sound clingy.

      1. Regarding the name stuff (Missy/Kiddo), try using some of the Allison’s scripts, “Thanks, I prefer Anon for this actually!”
      2. Just because adults of different ages can be friends, doesn’t make you obligated to be his friend or make the effort.
      3. For the phone number, definitely don’t give it out. Maybe try a script of, “I prefer to keep in touch with former colleagues via LinkedIn – I’ll add you!” then you can choose to add/not add him as desired.

      If you want to start distancing yourself now, go for it. You could try making excuses to get out of conversations, “Oh, I have to prep for meeting X” or “I’m actually on my way to meet a friend!” etc.

    10. Anon for experience with this*

      Just based on what you wrote, this guy is coming off as a creep who does not mean well. Regardless of whether he’s recently divorced and lonely, his actions do not read as benign.

      He’s infantilizing you (“kiddo, missy”). You yourself think he’s “fixated” on how young you are compared to him. He’s using forced-teaming tactics (the whole “walk” thing and dramatics attached to it to make it “sound intimate” including that you should have remembered he didn’t like cake when you’d only spent a small amount of time with him). He’s going out of his way to come by your office when he never did before. He’s assuming he has a right to your phone number (“he said he’d have to get my number before he leaves for his new job”), which he does not. He immediately began denigrating his ex-wife to you, a younger female colleague he barely knows.

      And his deliberately swinging by your office to say “he hoped he didn’t come off like a creep” is a huge red flag to me.

      You are NOT being mean. Your instincts are serving you well. He does not have a right to your phone number; please do not give it to him. If this keeps up, I would consider going to your HR or whoever you feel will take this seriously.

      1. cmcinnyc*

        YES FORCED TEAMING. Thanks for naming that. He’s framing this like you two already have some kind of friendship or understanding or common experience. You don’t.

    11. Little Pig*

      In this situation, I would just go with being super cool towards him. If he says, “Hey kiddo, how’s your day going?”, keep your chair and your shoulders pointed at your computer to signal how busy you are, give him a polite smile (not a genuine smile), and say, “Oh I’m keeping busy, thanks Tom,” and go back to work. Repeat as necessary. Personally, I like to go with cool-but-professional, not out-and-out ice queen, because it’s easier to resume a collegial relationship in the future.

      I expect that some other commenters will say this isn’t strong enough, but I’ve generally found it to be very successful in managing over-enthusiastic coworkers, even ‘interested’ men. Some men are overly aggressive and need a stronger tactic, but 95% will lose interested if you’re clearly stiff and formal with them. If he turns out to be one of the 5%, you can escalate to stronger and clearer language.

      1. Anne Elliot*

        Adding to this, I also have employed puzzlement — not just failing to pick up what he’s laying down, but being puzzled by it. “What walk? We’ve never taken a walk. Oh, you mean when we wandered around the room at the luncheon?” :Confused: Jokingly accusing you of forgetting he didn’t like cake: “Why would I remember that you don’t like cake?” :Confused:

        I have found it handy to selectively not understand things that make me uncomfortable but that are not so clearly done with malicious intent as to deserve a smack-down.

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Yep. From someone I like, “How’s your day going?” gets a story & a chat. But someone who sets off my alarm bells? They get “I’m on deadline, so sorry I can’t talk.”

      3. Batgirl*

        I advise stronger language downthread but I like this too; used it myself very successfully. Narcissists don’t enjoy bored or distracted reactions. Besides, a good toolbox needs tools of varying strengths.

    12. EditAnd EditOr*

      Yeah, I agree with the other commenters – trust your instincts. (To be honest, even if you hadn’t included all the detail to illustrate how he appears to be behaving objectively creepily… the fact that his behaviour is making you feel this way is enough for you to draw the boundaries you need to draw.)

      Keep your distance, use the ‘vague but busy smile then do something else’ manoeuvre, respond “oh, no thank you!” if he does ask for your number.. all the other suggestions that you use to avoid unwanted attention in other areas of your life too.

      He’s leaving soon, and hopefully that will resolve the issue… but if it doesn’t, or it becomes too weird in the meantime – remember, you don’t owe this man anything. You don’t owe him the benefit of the doubt, you don’t owe him kindness that you don’t want to give – you’re allowed to have boundaries around who you interact with on a personal level. Professionalism and basic human decency yes- anything above that, he is not entitled to, no matter how much he tries to finagle it.

      You got this!

      1. MoopySwarpet*

        “the fact that his behaviour is making you feel this way is enough for you to draw the boundaries you need to draw.”

        100% this. It doesn’t matter if he is being creepy or not. The fact that it makes you uncomfortable is enough to shut it down, or at least not encourage it.

    13. AnonEMoose*

      Your instincts are good – trust them. This guy is being creepy.

      Something I read recently that really resonated with me: “Don’t believe apologies. Believe patterns.”

      Now, this isn’t completely applicable to your situation…but I think the essential point about believing patterns absolutely is. This guy’s behavior is fitting the pattern of the other guy’s behavior, and you’re absolutely allowed to learn from that experience and apply it to this situation.

      You’re not obligated to be friends with him, give him your number, or be anything other than civil and professional. And he can feel how he wants to about that, that’s not your problem, although he’ll probably try to make his sadfeels your problem. Don’t let him.

    14. B. J. Salinger*

      …so don’t give him your number. Square up girl and hold your ground. You don’t even have to be nice about, just matter of fact. “It was nice to talk to you, but I have no interest in staying in touch — I have a meeting that starts soon. Good luck with your new job!,” then leave. You don’t have to rationalize his behavior or question yourself with so much doubt. Your instinct is telling you this guy is a creep — listen to it!

    15. De-Archivist*

      You don’t ever owe anyone your friendship.

      There is clearly something about this man, whether he is a creep or just an awkward guy, that does not mesh with your preferences for the personalities and behaviors of your friends. There’s nothing wrong with not wanted to be friends or even friendly with people you don’t really care for.

      If you don’t want to be friends, then follow the really great advice of the commentariat for professionally, blandly disengaging with the relationship.

    16. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

      Uh, yeah, dude wants a date. He is leaving soon, which will make him no longer your coworker, which in his mind makes it OK for him to ask you out the moment he leaves! (saying this as someone who had a coworker leave on Friday and send me a “now that we’re no longer coworkers, wanna date??” email from his personal account Monday morning. Do not give him the contact info, he intends to use it.

    17. LuckySophia*

      I’m rolling my eyes hard at this guy’s behavior/word choices. I can see why you’re not relishing the attention!
      Especially since you mentioned your past traumatic experience may be stirring up extra uneasiness.
      For whatever its worth, my take on this guy is…mainly I think he’s just (woefully) socially inept. Given his recent divorce, yeah, he’s probably lonely, AND he’s probably long out of practice at remembering how to conduct an appealing type of “single-man social interaction with a single woman.” And/or, maybe he’s just floundering around trying to figure out if he’s “still got game” after being off the market for so long? (LOL, if indeed he ever had “game”!!) Regardless, none of that is YOUR problem.You have no obligation to shore up his social confidence!!!!

      Your last sentence says it all. If he asks for your number, you can smile and say “I enjoyed making your acquaintance at the employee lunch, but I’m not interested in pursing anything beyond that.”

    18. Falling Diphthong*

      You’re allowed to be vague and busy. This is a problem that should resolve itself if you let him escort himself to his new city and job.

      I’d suggest reacting to requests for your contact info with vagaries about how he has your work info; if you feel backed into a corner and emit them you can always later respond with “Thanks; afraid I’m too busy” ad inifinitum.

      Anecdatum: I recall meeting a newly divorced dad at the tot lot when my youngest still hung out there, and it was like he knew he could recalibrate his interacting-with-women barometer now that he was single but didn’t remember enough about being single to know how to do that and sound relaxed and normal. Or he’d never practiced doing it with a toddler in tow in the late morning. I don’t think he had any actual intention of picking up me or the nanny sitting by the sandbox; he just didn’t quite know how to socially interact with female persons as a newly single male person, and so was fumbling. So feel free to blame this all on newly divorced awkwardness, if that’s reassuring.

      1. Observer*

        Why? The OP doesn’t need reassurance, she needs advice that reflects likely reality.

        Keep in mind that this guy is interacting with the OP in a professional setting. If he doesn’t know that what he’s doing is out of line in that setting, that’s not about “newly divorced awkwardness.” And if he does know that it’s out of line. . . Reassurance is not a good idea.

    19. Red5*

      I’m sorry to say, I don’t think he means well. “Also, at the end of that day, he came by my office to tell me he had a nice time talking and that he hoped he didn’t come off like a creep or anything.” This is the action of someone who WAS creeping on you, who KNEW he was creeping on you, and followed up to essentially determine how much he can CONTINUE to creep on you in the future.

      Seriously. How many people need to follow up their conversations with, “I hope I wasn’t being a creep.”

      Since you are uncomfortable, decline to give him your phone number. When he runs into you again and calls you pet names, say, “Actually, I prefer that you call me AnonForThis.” Or, “It’s AnonForThis, thanks.”

      You aren’t being mean. He’s taking advantage of the social contract of being polite to creep on you and make you uncomfortable. It’s okay to shut it down.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yes, please correct the way he addresses you. This is one of those you give an inch and they take a yard situations. “I have a name, you need to use it.”

        I also like the idea of sounding confused when he talks about “our walk”. You will see more ways that he is “taking a yard”, so feel free to pull back those inches you let go by earlier.

    20. PizzaDog*

      He sounds so weird, that even without your referenced traumatic experience, I would advise strongly against giving him any way to contact you. Thank your lucky stars that he’s no longer going to be in the office.

      A simple ‘No thanks,’ when/if he asks you for your number again should do fine. Make him uncomfortable if he continues to ask… “why would you need that?” type of thing, since he doesn’t actually.

    21. Marcy Marketer*

      Wow what a creep. Next time he makes a kiddo joke be like “Wow, still being called kiddo at 30!” or something.

      I once had a coworker say he was twice my age and I was like “oh you look much younger than 60!” which was a really good way, in my opinion, to tell him my real age (people often think I’m younger than I am, and also that coworker was closer to 35/40). When people mention college and stuff too, and imply that it was really recent for me, I’ll say something like “oh that was so long ago! Who could remember that far back?” And stuff.

    22. ten-four*

      Adding to the pile on: he’s acting like a creep and you should absolutely cold shoulder him until he goes and send him off without your number. Either “I don’t give out my personal number” or “oh, let’s connect on LinkedIn” should work, with the follow up “I like to keep my work and personal life separate” as needed. And if he STILL pushes forward and says he wants to become friends outside of work you can go with, “thanks, but I prefer not to” and then leave/turn back to what you were doing. Definitely stop talking though – don’t get drawn in to explanations or engagement. Just let the silence sit there, getting Really Uncomfortable.

      Also, screw this guy for being a creep in the workplace.

      Also also, I don’t think I ever could have done this but how fun would it be to respond to “I hope I wasn’t creepy the other day” with “Oh, you definitely were!”

    23. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      “Hey, can I get your number?”
      “Oh, no thanks, I’m good!”

      In my (admittedly somewhat limited; god bless RBF) experience, this will put him on his back foot long enough for you to go back to whatever you were doing and then he can’t follow up on it farther without emphasizing the creep factor.

    24. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      Every time he calls you anything that isn’t what you prefer to be called, just correct him matter-of-factly “It’s Anon for this” if you want to get “jokey” back pretend he keeps forgetting your name and you’re helping him, “oh, haha, I guess my name is hard to remember (add in “at your age” if you really want to go low in this game)? It’s Anon. I hope the transition to your new job is going smoothly.” In fact, making a habit of forgetting any of the little details he may have told you during the lunch is a way of putting him back in his place as just a guy at work whose leaving soon and you couldn’t care any less; I double dare you to ask about his wife and kids (+ points if there aren’t any) as though you don’t remember he’s recently divorced.

    25. Anonforthis*

      Apologies if someone has already brought up “The Gift of Fear” by Gavin de Becker. Your instincts are telling you that this guy is not someone you want to be around. Listen to them. DO NOT give him your number or other contact info. This is how creepy pushy guys use our socialization to be “nice” against us. (I’m a woman and am assuming you are as well.) You can be polite and still shut him down – “I don’t share my personal contact information with co-workers. Thanks.” Also, please remember that “no” is a complete sentence!

      Best of luck to you.

    26. workerbee2*

      I’m going to play devil’s advocate a bit here. This thread makes me sympathize with men who say that what makes a guy’s advances “creepy” or not is whether or not they’re welcome. Complaints that unwelcome advances automatically make a guy creepy, and that that’s not entirely fair, do seem to have some degree of merit. (I’m a woman.)

      So let’s not make this about whether or not the guy is creepy. He’s getting more familiar than you’d like and making unwelcome advances. He’s trying to gauge your interest, and you’re not interested, so shut it down, but be kind (note: “kind,” not “nice”), which to my mind means swiftly, firmly, and in a straightforward fashion (no fake numbers, etc.). If he persists after you’ve unambiguously shown your disinterest, THEN you have a creep on your hands, but I think 99% of even dense guys would back off if you make it clear that you’re not interested. But even then, if he has no way of getting in contact with you after he leaves, I think this situation will resolve itself unless he’s truly unhinged.

      1. Consuela Schlepkiss*

        No, no, he’s plenty creepy now, and there is no reason to play devil’s advocate. Don’t advocate for women to ignore what their guts are telling them, whether you are a woman or not. Why are you invested in preserving this guy’s reputation this way?

        1. Watry*

          Agreed, the devil has enough advocates. Fixating on age, denigrating an ex*, apologizing “if” he seemed creepy, all major orange flags at minimum, on their own.

          *Remember that “my ex was crazy” usually means “my ex didn’t put up with my BS”.

      2. Frankie*

        Eh, this guy seems to be rapidly squandering any benefit of the doubt he’s given.

        He’s not creepy just because he’s flirting with her. He’s creepy because he’s fixated on her age (thinking she’s much younger than she is), complaining about his ex-wife, and doing it all within a professional context which, as we see above, puts pressure on her to be more polite than she might be in everyday life if this were happening in a bar. Someone who’s looking this actively for much younger women are typically very aware of power dynamics. He’s not just showing interest, he’s testing and pushing boundaries in an environment where she has limited options for how she responds.

      4. Yorick*

        Personally, I have met many creeps who were handsome and I would’ve been interested if they had been normal humans. But this is at work, where it’s inappropriate to act this way.

      5. Phoenix Wright*

        As a man, I disagree with this. This guy is severely overstepping his bounds, and he’s using tactics that I consider almost (if not already) predatory. Whether he’s truly a creep or not, he’s definitely acting like one, so wondering if he’s a bad person or simply behaves as such isn’t helpful to anyone.

        1. Batgirl*

          When I worked with a really similar creep the other men had no problem at all identifying it as far too predatory and letting the women in the office know they’d had words/what they knew of his back story. There were however a few women who still felt they’d go to ‘not nice’ jail unless all the empathy moves were exhausted first. A friend put me in a really dangerous position like that.

      6. smoke tree*

        Let’s not lower the bar this far on our expectations of men’s social abilities. Most men are perfectly able to figure out another person’s level of interest, or are capable of being direct and asking if they’re not sure. Men who engage in the kind of predatory behaviour described in this story are perfectly aware of what they’re doing. Any men who are honestly confused about this and concerned about inadvertently coming off as creepy can work to educate themselves about feminism.

        1. Observer*

          Any men who are honestly confused about this and concerned about inadvertently coming off as creepy can work to educate themselves about feminism.

          This is not remotely about feminism. It’s about being a decent human being and not taking advantage of people.

      7. Beanie*

        General rule of thumb is that if you’re working with someone, this kind of behaviour is inappropriate. It’s has nothing to do with whether or not she was attracted to coworker or not. He should know that work is not a place to try and pick up a partner.

        And FYI, what makes an advancement creepy is not whether it was initially welcomed or not. It’s when it’s rejected and someone persists even when you’ve made it clear you aren’t interested. The first advance isn’t creepy, the second, third, and fourth one after I’ve told you I’m not interested is.

        I’ll reiterate my advice from above. Tell someone. It doesn’t matter that he’s on is way out. Make someone aware of the situation so you are protected. There is no shame in coming forward. God knows I’d wish I’d done the same when I dealt with a client who didn’t respect boundaries. Either he’ll be forced to back off because the company has your back, or they’ll tell you it’s not an issue, in which case you’ll have everything you need to know about the company for future reference.

      9. Workerbee*

        I disagree, and others on this thread have already expressed the excellent reasons why.

        I also like to think of it this way: This man is in the working world and is to all appearances an adult. He’s been able to navigate all manner of direct and indirect nuances. He can, I therefore assume, understand his own motives and detect when he himself is pushing boundaries.

        He’s not accidentally baiting a hook. He’s casting a net. OP, trust your instincts, always. I’ve found it’s been my own misplaced benefit of the doubtisms and societal mores that have led me wrong, not my gut feeling. Which is, of course, what predatory people want you to doubt most of all.

      10. Batgirl*

        This is the exact playbook my poor friend’s horrible, oft-divorced, serial cheat dad uses. We used to hear him teaching his son: ‘Don’t take no for an answer, insist that you’re ‘friends’, always go for the very young, target daddy issues, recent break ups; scold the ones who aren’t nice.’ Like it was a war.

        He tried his worn out scolding, patronage, fake friendship and favour sharking on me about 15 years later as I was going through a divorce. Some of the same exact wording as OP’s creep. Oh, and being kind doesn’t work.

      11. Observer*

        You really think that any of what he is doing falls into the realm of reasonable advances? Each one alone is out of line, but together? No.

        I suggest you re-read the thread. People are naming quite specifically what is wrong with what he’s doing. So, I’m not going to rehash. But just keep in mind that your defense is exactly one of the tools people like this use against their victims.

    27. Frankie*

      creeeeeeeeeeeeeep

      Listen to your gut. Reading this made me vicariously and deeply uncomfortable. He sounds like he’s hitting on you and that makes his fixation on your age even creepier. Really unprofessional.

      I would just say something like “Oh, email is better for me, I’m not really a phone person” if he really tries to follow through with the number. You have absolutely nothing to feel guilty about by rejecting his advances, even if they are just for friendship (which I doubt).

      1. Anon for this*

        He sounds like he’s hitting on you and that makes his fixation on your age even creepier.

        EXACTLY! That’s the part that weirds me out the most. I’m in my mid-twenties, but the way he talks about my age, it’s like he thinks I’m late teens, early twenties at the oldest, but he as someone nearly twenty years older wants to become closer? Again, nothing wrong with people being friends who are far apart in age, but if you’re interested in someone, that’s a bizarre thing to fixate on…

        1. Batgirl*

          He’s stressing it because he believes in daddy issues and is shopping for that. He’s also hoping you’re vulnerable and overly nice enough to put up with pushiness and craziness ‘unlike that bitch I was married to’. Everything you’ve mentioned is straight off those courses about how to spot a potential abuser. There ARE women who don’t see these flags (you’re not supposed to) and if it’s any consolotion youre not the droid he’s looking for.

        2. Workerbee*

          Grooming in process! He’s counting on you not being old or experienced enough to recognize this. How wonderful it would be for him if he could shape you into exactly what he wants! /s

          I’m so glad you wrote in about this; getting a true reality check before anything worse happens is priceless.

      2. Pebbles*

        Usually guys who want to trade their wives in for a younger model find the younger model before they get the divorce. This guy is going about it all backwards! [/snark]

        1. Working Hypothesis*

          Sometimes they don’t get the choice; their wives get sick of their behavior first.

    28. Anon for this*

      Thank you so much to everyone for their input! I’m glad to know I’m not crazy for feeling put-off by his actions. I know that it’s 100% my right to not be interested even if he did absolutely nothing wrong, but I just wanted to make sure I wasn’t judging him overly harshly and to see if anyone had input on how to handle it.

      As of now, it’s mostly in my head regarding how big of an issue it is (it’s really not), but I hate upsetting people and am mostly dreading how to say no if he does ask. I do feel bad because I did genuinely initially enjoy our conversation and I initially thought he’d be a cool work friend to have (prior to learning he was leaving), but I was honestly put off by some of the stuff he said and realized later that I didn’t really want to keep contact after he leaves. I’m all for being polite while he’s here, but my mom suggested being icy and avoiding conversation as much as possible.

      She had also suggested that if he did ask for my number to go with the cover story that I’m dating someone. Personally, I want to avoid lying if at all possible. I like a lot of the wording here and am leaning towards just saying I’m not comfortable giving my number out and leave it at that. I also came across a great article about how to deal with people who want closer friendships than you and various ways (with varying degrees of bluntness vs. using covers) to let them down.

      Thank you all again! Happy Friyay~

      1. Not A Manager*

        I recommend against saying you’re dating someone. He’ll gaslight you and act all offended. “You thought I was asking for a DATE har har!” I think you can just say that you don’t give out personal information at work.

        1. valentine*

          it’s mostly in my head regarding how big of an issue it is (it’s really not)
          It’s as big a deal as you think and feel it is. Don’t discount the impact on you.

          Are you sure he’s leaving? If you only heard it from him, he may be walking you down the garden path of “I like you so much I can’t leave and it’s all your fault for being so [positive adjective] and so incredibly young” or “I thought you wouldn’t date a colleague, so I fibbed and it’s all your fault for being so [positive adjective] and so incredibly young.” If so, you’ll feel stuck because you’re still colleagues and you don’t feel you can report him. But you can. You can tell your supervisor “After a brief conversation in which Youth-obsessed Creep was fixated on how young he thinks I look, he has taken to visiting my desk every [frequency], calling me child-related pet names, and chastising me for not recalling his small talk. I’m going to tell him not to visit and not to call me pet names. I just wanted you to know in case anyone mistakes it for rudeness.”

          1. Anon for this*

            I’m fairly confident he is. The job is in the city he lives in, which is just under an hour away from where we are, so it makes sense (though it is a bit weird because he’s only been at this job for six months). However, I’ve heard him say he’s leaving to others as well, so I doubt he’s making it up.

            Otherwise, I appreciate your take on this!

      2. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

        “She had also suggested that if he did ask for my number to go with the cover story that I’m dating someone. Personally, I want to avoid lying if at all possible.” Yes, please do not use the cover story of dating someone because the subtext he’ll hear is that IF ONLY you weren’t dating someone, you’d be interested in him. You don’t want him hanging around on the fringes of your professional life just waiting for you to be “single again” so he can make his move, or asking colleagues about your relationship status to find out if you’re lying.

      3. straws*

        Saying that you’re dating someone also comes with the downside of him potentially checking in to see if your relationship has failed. Maybe not an issue in this case if he’s leaving, but I’ve gone that route before and it only resulted in continued conversations to get “updates” on my dating status. In one case, it was the truth that I was in a relationship when Persistent Suitor tried to connect with me. Said relationship then ended and I met someone else. I then got chewed out by Persistent Suitor, because he wasn’t informed that I was single for a time and it wasn’t fair that he wasn’t given a chance. Better to be up front on this, IMO.

      4. Anon for experience with this*

        If you use the “I’m not comfortable giving my number out” phrasing rather than the firmer suggestions people have offered or a simple “No,” I’d be prepared for pushback from him about “But WHYYYYY aren’t you comfortable giving out your number to ME?”

        (Been there, gotten that exact response. Sigh.)

        He might not. But if he does, “Because I’m not. Excuse me, I need to get back to work” is a completely acceptable answer. You don’t owe him an explanation for why you’re not comfortable giving your number out. You don’t owe him anything.

        You initially thought he’d be a good work friend and he repeatedly acted in ways that made you rethink that. That is your prerogative and you don’t have to feel badly about it. And if he tries to argue/rules-lawyer/whine at you about you not wanting to give him your phone number, that is NOT okay.

      5. blackcat*

        I really like “No thanks, I’m good.” said cheerfully in response to a request for a phone number. You can add you’re not comfortable, but “no thanks” is pretty blunt and firm. I think “I’m not comfortable” is more likely to get a “BUY WHY?!” response. “No thanks” followed by “I’d rather not” provides less to argue with.

        1. ayahbanaya*

          This is what I say at stores–cheerful and as though they are offering me something (rather than collecting my data). It always takes them aback just enough to move on without follow up. It works in a situation like this, too, because there’s nothing to push back against. I would practice saying it, though.

      6. ErgoBun*

        You’re concerned about upsetting him, but he is NOT concerned about upsetting you — at least, he’s not giving any sign that he is. Consider that. Is he giving you the same consideration that you are giving him? If so, then he has earned your consideration. If not, he has not. You deserve the same level of concern and politeness that you are showing him, and if he does not return it, your conscience is free and clear to be cold and rude.

      7. Anon for this*

        Also, though I don’t have the nerve to do this, if he calls me a similar nickname again, there’s a part of me that’s tempted to snidely tell him “Oh, I’m actually not an underage minor!” Not that it’s acceptable in ANY work context, but it’s not even like I’m a student employee or intern (we’re at a university). I’m an adult who is financially independent with a couple years of work experience and it’s just ridiculous to me to call someone a name like that, especially someone you’re not remotely close to.

        1. Marthooh*

          I wouldn’t put it that way. It won’t discourage him unless he’s actually trolling for teenagers. The problem isn’t that he doesn’t know how old you are, it’s that he’s being weirdly familiar.

      8. Anon for this*

        Also, I’m 100% with all of you saying not to use my mom’s cover story!
        1) I don’t want to lie if it’s not necessary.
        2) I’m pretty confident I wouldn’t be convincing.
        3) He could very well pull the “I just want to be friends” card, which doesn’t solve anything.
        4) He could act offended that I didn’t bother telling him earlier, even though we’re, again, not close.

        She recommended this the last time I turned someone down (who was a genuine friend who had treated me with nothing but respect, so I refused to be dishonest with him whatsoever).

        1. Lilysparrow*

          It also implies that he is a potential date prospect. Which he is not.

          If you aren’t comfortable hoping out directly, then give him you work extension.

          He is a co-worker. Your only connection is professional, and you want to keep it that way.

          Do not buy into his premise that this interaction is social. Not on any level.

        2. Batgirl*

          He will deny that getting your number is for a date. I had my creepy older dude go from “You look amazing and we should get a drink some time, alone” to “Well I didn’t mean we should have sex, I just thought we (two almost strangers) should go out and talk about our divorces”. Yeah.

          So go with either:
          A) “Only old friends and family members have my number I’m sure you understand” or any other variety of ‘we’re just not that close’
          B) “Oh I don’t know it. I dont use my phone much. I get a lot of creeps. Email is so much easier to block.”
          C) Or call him on how the whole patronising pushy deal doesn’t strike you as friendship (you can just say it pleasantly, you dont have to snarl!) and when he denies it, just say “Nevertheless it was inappropriate” as many times as you want.
          Feel free to say you thought he could use the free advice on working with women.

      9. ket*

        “As of now, it’s mostly in my head regarding how big of an issue it is (it’s really not), but I hate upsetting people and am mostly dreading how to say no if he does ask.” This sentence stood out to me because it was an issue I had especially when younger. I had a lot of feelings about being nice, being fair, saying no, appearing cooperative and pleasant — being “good” and “not causing trouble”. Even when our conscious minds know “that it’s 100% my right to not be interested even if he did absolutely nothing wrong”, it’s these unconscious scripts that give a person anxiety and even render them unable to follow through with their conscious wishes in the moment.

        I don’t really have any advice. Over time, I’ve been able to calibrate my it’s-ok-o-meter better (no, you don’t have to accept that wrong dish at the restaurant even though it’ll give you indigestion because you don’t want to bother the server; yes, you can just say with a laugh, “Oh, I want to keep work & personal life separate, but I’m flattered!” and it’ll be ok; yes, you can just cut someone like this guy off and never talk to him again and he’ll be annoyed in the moment and also that’s ok and he’ll be fine! Good luck.

      10. Workerbee*

        I understand your feelings; there are a few too many times when a “Hey, this guy seems like a cool work friend to have!” have turned into exactly what you’re dealing with. It makes me treasure the ones that don’t even more; they are very few.

        Please keep us updated!

      11. Observer*

        I see that your mom has this guy’s number. Good.

        While I disagree with her advice about the boyfriend, I see where she is coming from. It does make sense in that people like this often try to avoid people who are “taken” as it doesn’t work as well. But, I agree with the others who say that in practice it has its own drawbacks, so it’s not worth it.

    29. Mk*

      He’s testing your boundaries. That’s the reason why he hasn’t done anything yet that doesn’t have an innocuous explanation – he’s giving himself plausible deniability. Your instincts are good, trust them and don’t give out any personal info.

    30. agmat*

      I’d find it unnerving, too. He’s trying to chat you up and it’s not welcome. You have to be clear with him because he has already made it known he wants your number to ask you out on a date.

      Don’t explain, don’t mention the age difference, don’t mention that you’d rather not stay in contact, don’t waffle about anything. “I’d rather not.”

      He may say he just wants to “be friends.” Don’t buy into it. “That’s okay, I’m just not interested.” Because you aren’t interested in being his friend either.

    31. Lilysparrow*

      Best case scenario: he’s trying very badly to flirt with you in the hopes that it’s mutual, and it’s not.

      Worst case: he’s a creeper.

      Just let go of all this rationalization about “there’s nothing inherently wrong with him assuming I’m younger than I actually am,” and “…while I absolutely don’t think there’s anything wrong with two adults who are far apart in age being friends.”

      You don’t like him. He’s annoying and kind of a jerk. You don’t want to be his friend.

      That’s all the reason you need. You don’t have to pretend that he “means well,” or whatever. You are entitled to distance yourself and shut this down for absolutely no other reason except that *you are not enjoying it.*

      Here’s what you do. This will probably feel very rude, but it is not. It is perfectly civil and professional.

      He calls you missy or kiddo, you say “That’s not my name.” Do not smile or act like it’s a joke. Do not continue the conversation with him, just turn back to what you were doing before.

      He acts offended over the ridiculous cake thing. You say, “Okay.” Again, do not open the door to any further discussion, just turn back to what you were doing.

      He comes to interrupt you at your desk, you don’t chitchat. Don’t smile or pretend that you are glad to see him. You say, “Are you looking for somebody? Because I have to get this done.” Let it be clear that he is interrupting you.

      He tells you he’s leaving for a new job, say “congratulations, I hope it’s a great opportunity.” If he asks for your number, say “That’s not necessary, but I wish you the best.”

      The key to all of these is to show with body language that the conversation is over. Walk away. Turn away. Go back to your work.

      You’re not being “mean.” You’re being clear by drawing a line and demonstrating unequivocally which side he belongs on.

      If he ignores these extremely normal, easy to understand, mainstream and non-mysterious social cues, then he is not confused. He’s ignoring them on purpose.

      I guarantee that if he is 40 and gainfully employed long-term, then he can understand these cues from a boss or peer. He can jolly well understand them from you, too.

      If he does ignore them, say, “Look, it was nice to meet you that one time at the luncheon. But it seems like you’re trying to make it into some kind of close friendship. I don’t see that happening. I’m sure we’ll run into each other professionally at some point, that’s great. Let’s leave it at that.”

      And in the highly unlikely event that he won’t behave like a grown-up about that, it’s time to call HR.

    32. L. S. Cooper*

      This set off ALL of my creep sensors. I’ve found that a neutral but firm “I’m not interested” or “Do not do/say that” works well. The secret is to be neither friendly nor angry/aggressive. It’s just a statement of a fact, and if you’re generally cheerful and chipper, like I am, the switch from friendly to neutral registers as harsh enough to convey how serious it is. (However, I’m also a large person with a loud voice, so people probably take me more seriously.)

    33. dumblewald*

      You are right to feel uneasy – he is being really inappropriate. Unfortunately for the world, his behavior sounds super familiar. He is trying to do exactly the guy in your previous encounter did – he is testing your boundaries and trying to groom you into a more intimate relationship through gradual friendliness. If he works in your company and you have a sympathetic manager – either in your dept or HR – go talk to them. Also, feel free to start ignoring him, even to the point of being cold and unfriendly.

    34. emmelemm*

      Just want to add to the chorus of “he’s a creep, he does not mean well”. Have been there, done that. Do not give him your number.

    35. Boomerang Girl*

      I had a colleague who called me “missy”…until I started calling him “pops”. Then he stopped!

    36. Batgirl*

      Be mean! “Honestly I find it inappropriate when male colleagues patronize my age and then ask for my number. I don’t think it’s professional”
      He won’t expect it (these guys love youth because youth doesn’t talk back) and he knows he’s wrong, hence a) youthful target and b) trying it on when he’s leaving soon.

  4. Game of Thrones OP*

    I’m the OP who asked the game of thrones question and I’m so tickled that everybody jumped in with nerd comments. My biggest fear writing to advice columns is that the audience will find the question boring or say I’m making too much of a big deal out of something / the solution is obvious and I’m an idiot. Thanks everybody who jumped in to either commiserate or fangasm :P

    1. Move Over Thrawn - Florian Munteanu is BIGGER than you!*

      That was fun. I’m a Browncoat, love Thorin from the Hobbit (I have three lifesize cutouts, one is on my wall, I did NOT intend to have three, but it’s a long story), and of course, Grand Admiral Thrawn from Star Wars. I live and die by my pop culture lifestyle.

      1. WrenF*

        I just finished THRAWN: ALLIANCES earlier this week after happening on it at the library. What an interesting character. I was very prepared to not like him because he was such a sinister villain in Rebels.

        1. WrenF*

          But I did, even more than Padmé (who I usually support as she got such a raw deal in Sith).

          1. valentine*

            I’m making too much of a big deal out of something
            This is good information to have, especially from a diverse group. The obvious/idiot bits aren’t meant to be done here and someone will usually say so and defend you.

            There are OPs who think their issues were too mundane to update, but I wish they would because it’s always good to know how things turned out.

        2. Move Over Thrawn - Florian Munteanu is BIGGER than you!*

          They cartooned him in Rebels. He’s much more complex than that.

          1. WrenF*

            I knew nothing about the Chiss, his abilities, his loyalty…so that was awesome to pick up. Also, neat to get some backstory on his art collection.

            I miss Rebels. But am looking forward to the continuation of Clones with Disney streaming later this year!

            1. Move Over Thrawn - Florian Munteanu is BIGGER than you!*

              What I liked most about Rebels was Maul. Nice to see him fleshed out as a character.

    2. Sack of Benevolent Trash Marsupials*

      I wrote in too late for you to see probably, but our office has a standing meeting now on Monday mornings for 30 minutes in a conference room for all the GoT fans to get it out of their systems. Really helps as there are no longer hour-long hallway conversations all the time! If I close my door, my office heats to a million degrees so I love this solution.

      4. Marion Ravenwood*

        In my old job we used to have Game of Thrones Lunch Club on Tuesdays (I’m in the UK, so most of us would watch the episode on Monday nights). Basically we booked a meeting room, everyone brought their lunches and we’d sit round and discuss that week’s episode. I’m the only GoT fan in my current office and I really miss having people at work to talk about it with!

    3. Rainy*

      :D

      Weirdly enough, my coworkers have thus far been a LOT more low-key than they have in previous seasons! I’m not sure what changed but I’m pretty happy about it.

      1. your favorite person*

        probably trying to avoid spoilers. It’s such a huge season with so much crammed into only 6 episodes it would be a bummer to spoil anything for someone who is not a ‘night of’ watcher.

    4. Liane*

      I enjoyed the question and responses, even though I, too, am not into GoT. I enjoyed his earlier Aces/Joker novels but I quit the GoT series after 1 or 2 books because they were way too dark and violent for me, so stay away from the show. I am kind of familiar with it between 2 novels and friends who do like the series. (They let me talk about Geek Things they don’t care for, so I return the favor.)

      For the record Alison, even though I don’t do GoT (and prefer Star Trek or Star Wars names when I post), I love all the GoT names used here and find they are usually apt pseudonyms. Yes, I did have to think about who the High Sparrow was, but it was still fun.

  5. Teapot Librarian*

    Question about nudging/nagging bosses: what is an appropriate frequency for following up with one’s boss on things that you need their action on? I apparently do not nudge/nag frequently enough, according to my boss, but I have an employee who nudges me daily, and it drives me a bit nuts with its frequency. Is there a happy medium that I should be striving for on the one hand, and suggesting to my employee on the other? I really do appreciate that she stays on top of the things she needs from me, I just would like to breathe between her requests!

    1. Anna Canuck*

      It kind of depends on whether things are at a standstill until someone gets what they need, or not. I’m guilty of not following up enough because I have the assumption that if I respond quickly and do my job, other people also do that.
      It also matters how long the task takes. Do I need two minutes of your time? Two days? If it’s short, following up in a day is appropriate. If it’s a big thing, no more than once every week or two.

      1. Matilda Jefferies*

        It also depends very much on the boss! Some bosses need more nudging than others, and some appreciate it more than others (regardless of how much they need it.) So it’s totally appropriate to ask your boss how much is appropriate for her, and also to tell your employee to knock if off with you. There’s no one standard here, it all depends so much on each individual situation.

    2. Psyche*

      Everyone has a different frequency that they prefer. Generally, the boss gets to determine that frequency. I think it would be perfectly fine to tell your employee the frequency that you prefer. “I’ve noticed that you are emailing me daily asking for X. I need you to trust that I have not forgotten and will get to it as soon as I can. Please try not to check in on it more than (insert frequency here) unless it is truly urgent.”

      As for your boss, ask her how often she wants you to nudge/nag when you need something and adjust accordingly.

      1. Ashley*

        I like asking in the moment. When I ask my boss if he has an answer on X, my response is when do you think you might or when should I ask you again? This is assuming I don’t know the urgency. When it is urgent he gets texts — y due in 1 hour what are we doing? (I have projects with super strict time limits sometimes so a hour timeline is no joke for us.)

    3. TacocaT racecar*

      What has your boss said about your not nudging enough? I think it depends on the turnaround time for the action: if you need this 250 page report back in a month vs. needing her signature by the end of the week. Do you feeling comfortable asking her what she’s looking for?

      As for your report, be direct! You’re doing her a favor by helping her not annoy her boss by just letting her know. “Hey, while I appreciate the reminders, I prefer not to get them daily, unless it’s something you need the same day and I haven’t already talked to you about it. Can you try to compile all of the reminders for the week in a single email and send it to me on Friday morning? Thanks.”

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s going to vary depending on person and position.

      I have to nag people frequently because my turnaround time is slim most days. However there are things that are non-urgent and get to be held off for a weekly 1:1 situation!

      Your frequency with your boss and your frequency with your report are going to be different. If you don’t need her checking up daily, how about suggesting a 1:1 setup every other day or once a week? It should never be a hard and fast rule, things come up and some things are “now now now”others are “Just make sure it gets done before the month is over.” kind of thing.

      1. Teapot Librarian*

        I think part of what is frustrating me about my employee’s daily checks are that we also talk regularly, and she asks about things during those conversations AND by email, and it is the email that is daily in addition to the in-person. It isn’t a huge deal, of course, either way.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Ah it seems like a peeve issue in the end. You can certainly ask her to choose a ONE! mode of communication.

          It could be her way of reminding herself as well, perhaps she doesn’t do well with verbal reminders so she’s like “okay so I’ll also do a daily recap email as well!” and it’s just over the top because you don’t need it specifically.

          Curiously, have you worked with her for a long time or is she new-ish by chance? Or perhaps there is a change in leadership for your role so she’s used to having to pester the living heck out of her last boss to get things done? Old habits die hard like that.

          I’m going to assume that it’s not because you regularly need more reminding than you think ;) Look at that letter from awhile back where the boss never reads emails and then gets made AF and chastises the employee for missing a monthly bank transfer for not “reminding” her but she did! Maybe your employee had that boss before and she’s covering her own butt.

          I would honestly bring it up in passing and ask her to stop if I were you, just to cut down on your frustration. However if she doesn’t seem to be able to stop, just let it go because again, just overkill more than anything which I agree, is super frustrating to me. I don’t need 75 reminders but sometimes I do need 2.

        2. zyx*

          My company has a culture of using email as our todo lists, so your employee is following our standard procedure! When I talk to my boss about something I need, she generally asks me for an email too so it stays on her list.

          If you need something different, you can just say so. As the boss, you get to determine how your employees communicate with you.

        4. Owler*

          Perhaps you can ask your employee to replace the email reminders with a shared to-do list with due dates. It doesn’t have the in-your-face feeling of email because you can check it when you feel like it, but it also shows that the items are on both of your radars. It could be an electronic version or a physical one, like on a white board.

          That way, you talk about the progress in your check-ins (and maybe update the to-do list jointly), and the employee gets the satisfaction of seeing that things haven’t been forgotten, but you aren’t dealing with the email issue.

    5. cmcinnyc*

      Does your boss have an EA so you can outsource some of the pestering? I usually set up tag-team nudging: Employee A will nudge, get no answer, so I’ll nudge, and then kick it back to A if no action.

    6. Evil HR Person*

      With my boss – who happens to be the CEO therefore, super busy – I like to ask her when I should follow up with her on whatever subject. She’s pretty good at acknowledging that she needs follow up and giving me a good, “If you don’t have an answer from me in two weeks (or whatever), remind me.” Alternately, you can say to your report to please curb the checking-in to once a week (or whatever makes sense). Use that same spiel, “If I don’t give you an answer by the end of the day, come see me first thing tomorrow.” And, if your employee keeps nagging beyond that, you have standing to say, “It’s not the end of the day yet…” or [insert length of time here].

    7. Tortoise*

      I would be asking your employee to save those up for one email or one check in, say weekly or even daily but all in one!

    8. Not So NewReader*

      Definitely do tell your employee what you do and do not need reminders on. Likewise with your boss. I used to tell my crew when I wanted to be reminded. More currently, with the boss I have now I can pick out what has slipped by her and other things she point blank says she wants to be reminded.

      My boss and I use notes with each other for most things.
      The things that suddenly come up AND need her immediate attention, I will interrupt her to get those things done.

      As the years have gone by the sudden interruptions have lessened. For one, I am better at anticipating what is coming next so I can prep the paperwork and just put it in her “do immediately pile”. But I also know what she will say regarding this or that, so I can just handle it myself.
      As we grew used to working together, I would ask about specific things. “Do you still want to sign all Xs or can I start signing them for you?” So some things were put in a group of similar things and we created our own SOP for that group of similar things. She later said she felt very comfortable doing this because I am unusually good at spotting when something appears it might be similar but it is NOT similar, therefore I ask about that one-off.

      I used the idea of one-offs with people I have supervised. “If you see something different than the usual, then ask or tell me.” When they brought me the unusual example, we’d talk about it. Gradually, their questions and needs were lessened substantially.

      The recurring things are the easiest to get a handle on. It’s the once a year things or the unusual things that take a bit more time. And to some extent there will always be things that need reminders.

  6. Move Over Thrawn - Florian Munteanu is BIGGER than you!*

    The Great Outsourcing Experiment has been deemed a failure. Last June we switched to an online bookkeeping service, and laid off the only other office person, our bookkeeper. The result was to overwhelm me with work, far more than I could do successfully, especially considering that I have zero finance experience or aptitude. The service did the bookkeeping, but I was the one who had to process and send them bills, etc. I have learned to hate credit card statements with a fiery passion, too. Matching up line items with receipts and budget codes sounds like such a simple, bloodless process but it is NOT.

    Bills were often paid late; we had to constantly remind the church member assigned to approve bills to do so; then it took two days to process, plus 7-10 days to get a paper check to companies or individuals. They have absolutely no flexibility in their process, and the human assigned to work with us often sounded like a bot. She wouldn’t say a word that was not scripted by her company.

    So now we are hiring an in house part time bookkeeper. And the final cost for this past year? Just my nerves, which are completely wrecked. My reputation, somewhat tarnished by having to tell people constantly that I simply do not have time to do their thing. And the laid off bookkeeper is still without a job. She’s 58, long list of health problems, and is unlikely to find one again, I guess. One of the pastors mentioned the other day he thought that would be the case – and I just looked at him. Nice of you to care so much, guys.

    1. k8isgreat*

      Ugh, my new job surprised me with a lot of reimbursement work and no real training. I HATE having to try and figure out other people’s receipts and which items have alcohol and all that crap. And we use 2 very different systems for different reimbursements and they both suck and are both so tedious. There’s a reason you hire people to do this instead of dumping it on the nearest admin.

      1. Move Over Thrawn - Florian Munteanu is BIGGER than you!*

        Oh, amen, amen, amen. All they cared about what saving money. I was just the nearest, and only, warm body to dump it on.

      2. Bunny Girl*

        Same!!! And we have a couple of our team members who travel abroad and bring me back receipts in a different language and then get snippy when I ask wtf it says.

        1. k8isgreat*

          Yes! And then you have to deal with exchange rates and foreign taxes. No thank you.

      3. JustaTech*

        One time my company got bought by the Evil Overlords (TM) and fired the entire purchasing department and told us that each department would have to do our own purchasing. There was very little training on a very complicated process. During one live (phone) training that had to be *begged* for, the trainers were very rude. “Why are you all finding this so hard? These are standard purchasing processes!” to which my coworkers responded “We’re not in purchasing! We’re scientists! We don’t know any of these codes!”
        The trainers were taken aback and slightly less rude but getting anything ordered was a nightmare for years.

    2. Rainy*

      One of the pastors mentioned the other day he thought that would be the case

      Living those values, I guess.

        1. only acting normal*

          A family friend is a professional musician (and deeply religious): he is being totally exploited by the local churches who are *vastly* underpaying him for his organ and piano playing. Eventually a new vicar sorted out some of it, but others in the area are still delaying/skipping payments.

          1. Rainy*

            One of my friends who’s a professional musician has Things To Say about the way churches exploit church musicians.

              1. Decima Dewey*

                My branch’s guard is a musician. He told me recently that he no longer plays Gospel, because churches except him to play for free. Which doesn’t help any with his mortgage, his utility bills, etc.

        2. Federal Middle Manager*

          Except that many many many churches keep on poorly performing staff for just this reason and the organization as a whole suffers.

          I was on the board for a church that was struggling financially (near bankruptcy) but had a beautiful classic 150 year old building located in a popular destination wedding market. Renting the facility for weddings on Fridays and/or Saturdays only (with no interruptions to Sunday services) would have almost completely alleviated the financial problems.

          The board decided to allow the cheerful but inexperienced church secretary market and book the weddings for a small commission. Based on our market research, 50% of weekends booked would have been easily attainable because we were priced competitively, with the opportunity for both Friday and Saturday double weekends during high seasons. The third year of the this arrangement, the church had only booked 13 weddings for the year. She was given plenty of time to get the hang of it, try new things, ask for more seed money, etc. But clearly she wasn’t a good fit. And the church literally almost folded due to the board’s reluctance to hire someone else or contract this out to an event manager (the larger state organization had to provide emergency loans by the third year).

          1. Move Over Thrawn - Florian Munteanu is BIGGER than you!*

            You’re right, staff has to be able to perform their jobs adequately. But she had been their bookkeeper for over ten years …. Left the banking industry after twenty. She knew what she was doing.

    3. $!$!*

      Is there any chance the laid off bookkeeper will be offered the part time position ?

      2. Move Over Thrawn - Florian Munteanu is BIGGER than you!*

        No. They don’t want her back. It’s true that she was out a lot – I mean a LOT – and that was frustrating, but she did know her trade. They could have worked around that, they just didn’t want to. She’s filling out her disability paperwork now; she has macular degeneration, legally blind in one eye, the other is going too. But, we are a church, we should be taking care of our own.

        2. TooTiredToThink*

          But if she was out a lot and they only want to hire a part time person…. *sigh* Hope everything works out.

        4. FloralsForever*

          i know i’m a little late to the conversation but YES. a place that believes they care about people but then let go of someone who offers value (and needs to be valued) because its “inconvenient.”

      3. Auntie Social*

        So when do they go back to the bookkeeper with hat in hand, and a sincere apology??? And have you said ‘I can’t take much more, we gotta get Miriam back!!”???

        1. Move Over Thrawn - Florian Munteanu is BIGGER than you!*

          Oh yes, I’ve made it known I’m drowning. They just didn’t care. They only paid attention when they started realizing my OT was costing… Now I can’t work OT anymore. I’m so behind it’s impossible.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            It sounds like her MD is progressing far along. It might be that she could not do the work any more, anyway. Not comforting but looking at another solution might be wise. My friend has MD and it takes her forever to read something. She has also lost her ability to scan a page, she has to read every single word to know what is on a page. It’s tiring for her.

            1. Move Over Thrawn - Florian Munteanu is BIGGER than you!*

              She has a special computer bought for her by a state Dept that deals with the blind and often uses magnifying aids. It’s true that long term disability is her only real option, but she’s got a few years left on the other eye.

    5. Grace*

      So they laid off a bookkeeper, then a bit later hired a new one, but they didn’t rehire the old one who was still without a job? Bit harsh. I suppose she might have wanted full-time rather than part-time, but please say they at least offered her her job back!

        1. Move Over Thrawn - Florian Munteanu is BIGGER than you!*

          She would come back if offered. I wanted them to work around her with part time status, maybe flexible hours, but they didn’t want to. I’ve tried to help her.

          1. I See Real People*

            I have heard, so it may not be true, that if you lay off someone due to cuts or outsourcing, and within a certain amount of time you refill the position without changing it, that you must offer the laid-off employee the position first. They practice this at my current company.

    7. Jadelyn*

      CC reconciliations are the WOOOOORST. I used to have to do a similar version of that for a larger company – get the report from the processing gateway, line-by-line to the transactions in the internal database, make sure it all matches up. It was the most tedious and frustrating thing. You have all my sympathies.

    8. MissDisplaced*

      Ouch! That just really sucks for the former bookkeeper. Why can’t they hire her back?

    9. Master Bean Counter*

      Don’t feel bad. Those of us who deal with credit card statements everyday hate them with a fiery passion as well.

      1. Move Over Thrawn - Florian Munteanu is BIGGER than you!*

        The funny thing – years back, different church, I mentioned to our bookkeeper that I thought CCs would be so easy to deal with. ha. She set me straight, now I understand totally. They are EVIL.

    10. Hamburke*

      I’m an oursourced bookkeeper. Just so you know, I often feel the same way when we first bring on a new client. It really takes about 6 months before the process is smoother – I’ve only had one client that onboarded without a lot of stress. But it sounds like you didn’t click with the person you ended up with and they weren’t invested in making the transition and forward process smooth.

      As an fyi, there are things you can do to make credit card statements and bills easier (expensify is one of the products we use for our clients).

      1. Move Over Thrawn - Florian Munteanu is BIGGER than you!*

        I didn’t click, though she seems nice enough. I suspect this particular company probably just focuses on cut rate work and attitude… but I admit I’ve been resentful from the start of this. For my co worker, and for myself.

    11. Mazzy*

      Omg they’re not hiring her back? How much money could this outsourcing have been saving?

      1. Move Over Thrawn - Florian Munteanu is BIGGER than you!*

        About half her salary per year.

    12. Anono-me*

      Maybe I’m too cynical. But if I was the former bookkeeper; I would be wondering about the whole process that resulted in me being replaced by a younger healthier person and consulting an employment lawyer specializing in age and disability issues.

  7. Anonny*

    How long is too long to stay at a job? I’ve been here 10Y but have only received one promotion because there is NO ROOM for growth. There are pros, like a good work/life balance, flex time, fun coworkers. Pay is meh but job is stable.

    I’m thinking this looks bad on my resume through no fault of my own… it’s not my fault the higher ups won’t leave so there’s no room for me to move up. Thoughts?

    1. irene adler*

      Get out while you still can.
      Interviewers will wonder why you haven’t progressed promotion-wise.
      You’ll need to counter this with a show of all the skills you’ve obtained.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It will vary depending on the hiring manager that it lands in front of.

      My boss was thrilled with my shown “loyalty” and that I stay put until it just isn’t feasible any longer! Others would ask why and start digging at it even more, like it was absurd to them that anyone would leave after ten years and there was some kind of weird underlining reason that I was hiding.

      I just interviewed a person months ago who was at the same company for 25 years and was only looking because of some management changes. We were cool with that, it happens, companies can change a lot in all that time and cause people to want to leave.

      If you’ve tapped out at 10 years, it really shouldn’t look bad for you, you have a very reasonable explanation.

      The only reason it brings some kind of worry into minds is that you may have a harder time acclimating to a new environment but that’s standard stuff in most cases. It’s been something I stay aware of and think “well they haven’t had any change in so long, it makes sense.” more than a flag saying I shouldn’t hire them.

      Please, cast your fishing line and try out the waters. You don’t have to leave just because you start sniffing around but it gives you more ability to know what you may or may not be missing out on!

    3. Natalie*

      I would (and did, when I was in the same situation) prioritize how this feels for your life over how it looks on your resume. It’s okay to not want to grow in your career – plenty of people are happy with a sort of “steady eddie” job that they’ve mastered – and if that’s you then who cares how it looks on your resume? If someone is happy without changing jobs, it doesn’t make much sense for them to get a new job just to strengthen their resume for a theoretical new job in the future.

      But, it does sound like you might be a little bored? Maybe not unfulfilled, but not as fulfilled as you could be? If that’s the case, why not look around and see what’s out there? Other jobs have work/life balance and flex time and fun coworkers, and better pay and growth opportunities. But you won’t know about them if you never look. And if you don’t find anything better, well then, you’re right at the same place you were without looking.

      1. Steady Eddie*

        This is me. I’ve been with the same company for 12 years. In that time I’ve has 3-4 different roles. I’ve had the same role for 5 years. I have continued to advance my skills in that time and don’t feel I know everything there is to know. i can continue to get better. I love my boss, my company and my job. I have a ton of flexibility, great benefits and decent pay (especially for the area I live in). I know a promotion is unlikely unless I move states. I worry a little about if I ever were to have to leave the company what my resume would look like, but right now my work-life balance and flexibility is important for my family. I continue to work on improving my skills, performing well and enjoying my job.

        1. Jen*

          It’s nice to hear that someone else is in the same boat. I’ve also been with my company for 12 years in about 4 different roles, with only one promotion. But there aren’t really any other promotions I could get unless I wanted to go into management.

    4. ECat*

      No good advice, but wanted to say I’m in the same boat! Love my work and coworkers, but I’m in an entry-level position and it feels like I’m continually running into a wall. My workplace is great about encouraging people to try new things, learn stuff, organize events, etc., but not great at providing feedback or higher-level support. I’ve done a lot that I’m proud of, and I’ve learned a lot of procedures, but none of that seems to translate to promotion.

      1. Spreadsheets and Books*

        Do you work at my old job? That’s exactly what I experienced. I was great at day to day tasks and the company was very encouraging about new opportunities but my direct manager was new to management and wasn’t able to give the feedback I needed to move forward, which unfortunately translated to the people above him failing to understand where I stood.

        I left a month ago. I miss my old coworkers and parts of my old job but it was absolutely the right call for me and my career trajectory.

    5. Lady Jay*

      Depends on what you want out of a career. I left a job last year where I loved the work & which was semi-stable (very small org so could go under but I wasn’t super worried about being fired) because I knew that if I were still there in 10 years, I’d be doing the exact same thing as I was doing then. I decided that I didn’t want to spend my life doing the same thing, even if I loved that thing.

      While I miss the work, I know I would have missed the opportunities to try something new as well.

      Ask yourself where you want to be in 10 years. What do you want your career to look like? Then proceed accordingly.

    6. TacocaT racecar*

      I worked at one agency for 10 years and every place I’ve interviewed at since then has been impressed. However, that’s state government (maybe all government/academia?) in general, so I think it also depends on your field, how up to date you keep on the current technology, procedures/policies/practices of your field, etc.

    7. Spreadsheets and Books*

      This can depend on your field. For example, if my field, you’re expected to jump in title every 2-3 years in the early years with a path that slows to every 5-7 years after reaching a certain level. I recently left the job I’d been at for around ~2.5 years for the purpose of a title bump because I didn’t think it was coming where I was and if I managed to stay there for the 5 years my husband and I will be in this city, I thought it would be a huge red flag. If you’re in a field where promotions are at least relatively common, I’d cut bait now. There’s no way to say “I wasn’t promoted because there’s no room to grow” on your resume so on first glance, you just look like an average performer at best.

    8. Mike C.*

      There are two issues here – lack of promotions and length of time. It shouldn’t matter how long you stay at a particular company so long as you are progressing in some fashion.

      Some folks do get really stupid ideas about how “someone who spends a long time at a particular company can’t adapt at a new place”, but that’s stupid and goes against everything we know about someone’s ability to adapt, neuroplasticity and so on.

    9. Alternative Person*

      It’s hard to say because it depends so much on industry norms. 10 years in one job is nothing in some industries and three times too long in others, so you need to work out what is acceptable in your field/area.

      But, if I was recruiting, I think evidence of continued progress/improvement would something I look for in someone who spent a long time at one job. So the promotion looks in your favour, but are there any continuing education opportunities you could take advantage of? Have you delivered any big projects or similar? Can you demonstrate how you have improve from when you started?

      In some cases, people stay in jobs because of other people. Have you had family/health reasons that kept you around for reasons?

      As long as you haven’t rested on laurels for the whole of the ten years, I don’t see a particular issue that can’t be solved with a well written CV and cover letter.

      (Also, I so hear you on limited opportunities. The place I contract for has a severe bottleneck when it comes to management and higher level responsibilities, and there are so many people who deserve the chance but they’re stuck because management is basically bedded in (they’re great but they’re also not going anywhere soon) and the company is basically top of the industry in the area which means going anywhere else would be a pay cut. Your choices are basically stick it out or transfer elsewhere. It’s not ideal)

    10. Southern Yankee*

      I’ve been at the same company 25 years, and I’ve thought about how that might be interpreted on a resume. I have had diverse experience and moved up the ladder during those 25 years, and I am confident I can tell a convincing story about it if needed, so I’m not overly concerned.

      Having interviewed people that had been with one company a long time, the difference in who I hired and who I didn’t was their take on that experience. If I got the sense that they thought very narrowly (this is the only right way!) then I passed. If they seemed aware of and excited about a new opportunity and learning new ways of doing things, and if they were a great candidate otherwise, they got hired. Also, lack of a chance for advancement is a pretty common reason people give in interviews for job hunting.

      If you are happy where you are, I wouldn’t worry about it too much. Of course, you don’t really lose anything by keeping your options open and looking to see what’s available in the job market. You might find the benefits you list plus room for advancement somewhere else, but only if you look.

    11. MissDisplaced*

      I don’t think there is a right or wrong answer. If the company is otherwise a good one, many hiring managers would consider this loyalty and stability. But on the other hand, it may not show that you are growing professionally. However, some roles don’t really require growth and new skills as much as others.

      If you haven’t changed job in a long while, I would make sure that you are still receiving professional development of some type, be it keeping your skills updated or participating in your field via networking or professional organizations and the like. You would fill in your resume with these rather than a standard job progression.

    12. Pebbles*

      My situation is similar: I’ve been here 18 years and have only been promoted twice. It took so long between the first and second time because I had the same manager for 13 years who believed that he couldn’t have (or didn’t want) too many senior level people on the same team. When he left and I was assigned a new manager, I was promoted within a year after I showed my new manager that I deserved one. I still get people who I’ve worked with a long time express their surprise that I do not have a more senior title.

      But, here’s the thing, I can show on a resume that I’ve acquired new skills during that time, that I’ve had leadership opportunities and been successful, I’ve mentored others, and I’m working towards (hopefully!) another promotion soon.

      I’ve stayed because I love the people, the work, and some of the benefits including being paid well. I’ve passively looked elsewhere during some frustrating management changes, but ultimately I’ve found that so far this is still the best place for me. If the pros are enough for you, then there’s nothing wrong with staying a long time. But whether you are looking to get out or not, keeping working on your personal growth by taking on new tasks and learning new skills.

    13. Qwerty*

      You can make this work for you, it all comes down to how you present it. A lot of managers would jump at the idea of a quality employee will stick around for a long time and become an expert in the department.

      It’s easy to cover this when they ask why you are leaving. “I’ve really loved working at my current company, but there isn’t any room for advancement.” You could also emphasize the culture of staying a long time (“Most of the next level managers are lifers, which is great for the company, but can be limiting for professional growth”)

      The people who stay for many years can be invaluable. While there is much advice recommending people change jobs every 2-3yrs, this really only works if there are also people with long term knowledge sticking around to help train them. When someone wants to ditch the weird X process, they need someone to explain that it is necessary because of Y and Z.

    14. Quinalla*

      I was at my first job for 13 years with no promotions as we were too small to have any until the current boss retired anyway. I could still show that I learned and grew in my role taking on more responsibility even though I did not have a promotion. I did earn my engineering license while I was there which is not a promotion, but definitely showed growth in a tangible way.

      As small as my company was, it would have been easy for me to explain why I had not gotten a promotion, but it didn’t ever come up as a question. I was asked why I stayed for so long and then why I was now leaving, but that was a pretty normal question.

      So my answer is there is no right answer, only what is right for you. If you are happy but just wondering, am I missing out? Maybe take a look around at available jobs, maybe even polish your resume and apply if something looks promising and go on a few interviews, sometimes that will help clarify that yup, I’m happy where I am or wait, I am actually pretty excited about trying something new. Sometimes sitting down and just thinking about it is enough too.

      Good luck!

    15. Therese*

      I have this problem right now. I have been here since 2015 and have gotten a few small raises. No PTO or medical is offered. But I have a super flexible schedule. Can get off for vacations unpaid whenever I need to. Can easily get off for doctor appointments. I really need to move on but there are no jobs without having a 2-3 hour round trip commute.

    16. Help me Rhonda!*

      I need some advice, HELP ME RHONDA!

      I a young individual that has have been on the job hunt for a while looking for a permanent career in the professional field and have had numerous phone/in person interviews for administrative assistant positions. I seem to struggle a little bit with my general overall presence during an interview and I am still having a hard time gauging how I should behave in an interview.

      By that I mean – today, at a small indie gaming company I interviewed with, the interviewer cracked open a beer and hung out on a bean bag chair during the entire interview. None of that is an issue for me but it instantly threw me through a loop because it made me feel like I had to be a bro gamer who’s only goal in life was to play video games for a living and not a professional looking for a well-paying, high responsibility job. I have notice this is actually fairly common with modern young companies I’ve interviewed with that have a “lax” atmosphere and it really makes me wonder if I’m to “uptight” for these companies and makes question my demeanor.

      My question is should I maintain the upmost professionalism during an interview (regardless of the type of work), that I’ve been taught to have my entire life even it makes me look like a stiff or should I conform to these “lax” office atmospheres and be “chill” during the interview? I want to show them I care about the job I’m applying for and that I am qualified professional but I don’t want to look like a boring person that can’t have fun.

      1. Batgirl*

        I honestly think that’s pretty rude. If the interviewer wanted a more relaxed feel he should have intimated that ahead of time or at least focused on your comfort as much as his own.

    17. JulieCanCan*

      If you like your job and aren’t itching to get out, why the concern? This site is full of people writing in about leaving jobs because they think it’s what society and work culture tells them they should do. I’m in a job now that is stable, secure, suits my strengths and abilities, gives me autonomy and a nice work/life balance. Pay is fine ( a bit less than I’ve made at MUCH more stressful, crazy environments (ie, places I have no desire to re-live)) and honestly if I stay here forever I’ll be happy. Good benefits, ok commute, nice associates……yet if I were to think about it in the way the “better, bigger, more money!” work culture mind frame, I should soon consider moving to on to a higher position somewhere else. Where I work has no other jobs “higher” than mine in my department.

      I’ve seen the grass on the other side and trust: it is definitely NOT greener. I thank my lucky stars every single day.

  8. Programmer*

    Any suggestions for asking for more money when a temp contract is extended? They want to extend the contract another six months.

    The benefits (health/dental) weren’t described before I agreed to it (my fault) and it takes a pretty big chunk out of my take-home pay. I know I’m underpaid for the market, too.

    1. TacocaT racecar*

      Well, as long as you’re polite about it, the worst they can say is no, right? How long have you been in the position already?

    3. Lepidoptera*

      First, are you an in-house temp or an agency temp? If agency, you need to find out how your contract works. If the company pays a flat amount and the agency takes a slice, then any raise you negotiate is cutting into their profits and they will act accordingly. If the agency gets a percentage, then a raise for you might mean a raise for them as well, and they will be motivated to help you.

      More generally speaking, I’d come prepared with talking points and clear measurable stats/goals you’ve met. Also have market research for market rates (the Bureau of Labor Statistics is great for U.S. stats). Point to your track record, bring up the initial lack of transparency regarding the cost of benefits, and ask for more money. Depending on how your request is received, you could emphasize the merit raise over the COL increase, or vice versa.

      1. Laura*

        Yes. I negotiated a raise as a temp. I had been unemployed for 51 weeks when I got the job. The pay was very low but compared to unemployment I took it. The first time my contract was extended I asked for more as it was my skills that was prolonging their commission. I consulted my boss and she put some feelers out to HR to come up with a number. They tried to lowball it but when I “forgot” to call back one day, they decided to come up to my number.

      2. Programmer*

        I’m pretty sure I’m a flat-rate temp. I’m in the US, so thanks for the information on the Bureau, and all the additional tips!

      1. 1st in Corporate*

        Yes, as a contractor you should negotiate your rate if possible when you are extended. At a minimum every year. Plus if they really need you and ask you to extend, great time to ask.

  9. Wesley*

    So, question on how I should’ve handled this situation better.

    TL;DR: recruiter and company lied to me about where a job was located, and then got offended when I withdrew my candidacy because of it.

    So I’m looking, and a recruiter reached out to me about an interesting sounding job. They said it was located in downtown Manhattan and sent along the JD for it.

    In the interview with the company’s internal recruiter (first one was an agency recruiter), they told me their offices are actually in New Jersey, and they say they’re in the financial district of Manhattan “because it’s just a short PATH train ride away.” She also said that they don’t allow remote work. I was annoyed by this but I let the conversation finish and sent an email saying that I appreciated the conversation but I don’t have any interest in jobs outside of NYC proper.

    I got an email back from the external recruiter saying he was “disappointed in [me]” for “not trying harder to make it work.” And yesterday I got a text from the internal recruiter asking me if I’d reconsider.

    So what should I do? I don’t think telling them to tell the truth on their JD would go anywhere, and I’m averse to giving criticism in writing in case it bites me in the butt in the future — email last season forever, after all. I’m thinking ghost them and leave a negative Glassdoor review.

    Thoughts?

    1. SOAS*

      That sucks! No t the same but I hate They have no right to say they’re in FiDi when they’re in NJ, even though many people commute, it’s literally 2 different states. Many JDs I’ve seen have said “Greater NY/lower-Manhattan area” and are vague about it.

      That’s unprofessional from the recruiter too.

      1. Wesley*

        I’ve lost count of the number of recruiters for “NYC area” jobs who go silent when I say “can you be more specific? I’m not looking for anything outside of Manhattan or north Brooklyn like DUMBO and the Downtown Brooklyn area.” Understandable why someone would say “NYC area” but straight up lying is a different thing.

      2. SOAS*

        Sorry that was supposed to be, “not the same, but it happens with apartments as well”

    2. Overeducated*

      Maybe just say “thanks but it turns out the commute just won’t work for me”? You don’t have to outright criticize them to send the message you need.

      1. Lead, Follow or Get Out of the Way!*

        I agree with this. This is a great way to be gracious and get your point across and possibly not burn a bridge as some industries can be small.

    3. A Simple Narwhal*

      Wow rude. I see no reason to follow up with them again, but if you’re going to leave a negative review I would only do it on the external recruiting company’s page. It sounds like the internal recruiter was for the company was honest with you – told you the actual location, was up front about the lack of remote work options. The external recruiter was the one who told you the job was in Manhattan, and then followed up with that incredibly rude response.

      1. Wesley*

        No, the internal recruiter explained that they say downtown Manhattan because “it’s a quick train ride from the financial district.” They both lied about it. The job description was from the company themselves.

        1. A Simple Narwhal*

          Ah I missed that part, apologies!

          My only thought would be to place some weight on how the internal recruiter said it. Like if it was apologetic, “yea, I know we’re called the Manhattan office, sorry about that, that’s just what the bigwigs tell us to say” maybe cut them some slack, but if it was a genuine “we can say we’re in Manhattan because we’re a train ride away, that’s the same thing and you’re dumb to think otherwise” then yea I’d be frustrated. I’ve worked in places that called themselves “the [big city] office” when we were actually located in a town a 20-30 minute drive away, mostly because no one but our non-local clients would know where we were actually based.

          But honestly those companies were always upfront about it not being in [big city]. I think you can just repeat that the location is a dealbreaker and note to never work with the external recruiter again. And yea, go for those glassdoor reviews.

          1. Wesley*

            They weren’t mean about it, but they were also pretty chill with admitting they lied. IIRC, what she said was “well, we used to be in NYC, but we moved to Jersey, and it’s just a short PATH ride away so it’s almost the same thing.”

            I think I will fire off a response to them (internal recruiter) but keep it cordial. Something like “I’m sorry, but I am not considering anything outside of Manhattan and downtown Brooklyn because of the commute. I wish you and $COMPANY_NAME the best of luck!” And this response will be over email—IMHO it’s another breach of regular courtesy to text me. The only people I expect texts from are friends and family. With colleagues it’s all Slack and email.

            1. A Simple Narwhal*

              I think that’s a great idea, closes the loop in a professional way.

              Also they texted you????

              1. Wesley*

                I work with small and mid size tech companies. There’s a move for them to seem more laid back and “cool” employers, which you probably know. FWIW, I think it’s silly because it’s very forced. This extends to people sending memes in recruiting emails and in some cases, getting texts about interview/application details.

                It’s doubly weird to me because I’m a professional — I try and respond as promptly as I possibly can to everything, and if I’m heading to an interview I’ll keep an eye on my email so I can send/receive any updates, like if there’s a transit delay.

                I’m considering adding a line like “I can’t speak for anyone but myself, but texting comes off as overly direct and familiar, especially as I’ve already expressed a disinterest in continuing the process.” Might not, though.

                1. A Simple Narwhal*

                  Yuck, I dislike even current coworkers having my cell #. Also, I can’t stand companies that want to seem hip and cool. The more you try and seem cool the more I think you’re hiding something! Beer taps and ping pong tables and funky bean bag chairs and food delivery just makes me think you never want/let me leave the office.

                  TBH it’s probably not worth mentioning the texting at this point.

            2. leya*

              yeah, i think this is your best bet, since you probably won’t actually be able to get them to change what they’re telling people – even though what they’re telling people is completely ridiculous. “oh it’s just a PATH train away! oh it’s just another $2.75 on top of the $2.75 subway fare to get to the PATH! what? oh, no, you can’t use an unlimited metrocard for the PATH, silly, you have to pay an additional $89 a month!” ugh. they’re jerks.

        2. Manhattan*

          This happened to me. The job said Manhattan but it was in New Jersey — a part of New Jersey that the PATH doesn’t reach. My commute had 3 transfers and was 1.5-2 hours long. I took the job because I was a bit desperate and they said they were “about to close on a lease in Manhattan.” Surprise, surprise, there was no lease. I left the second another offer came up.

    4. Jimming*

      I think you handled the situation well. You let them know you weren’t interested since the location was different than you were initially told. If you wanted to, you could let the internal recruiter know the only way you’d reconsider is if you could work remotely but it doesn’t sound like that would get anywhere. Location is an important consideration for people and they absolutely pulled a bait & switch.

    5. Natalie*

      Just because they reacted poorly, it doesn’t necessarily follow that you did anything wrong. They lied, you called them on it in a professional and relevant way, and now they’re acting salty. Put it out of your mind, and maybe strike this external recruiter off your list.

      1. OlympiasEpiriot*

        +1.

        Being a short PATH ride away from Wall St. still is adding compleity to a comute for someone who is looking for downtown Brooklyn or Manhattan. That means getting to the WTC and transferring to another mode of travel. Someone could be coming from SI on an express bus or something similar. Just because it isn’t that far as the crow flies doesn’t mean it “isn’t that far”.

        Nope. Location bait-and-switch.

        1. Wesley*

          Also, NJ Transit doesn’t go to Jersey City Or Hoboken IIRC (think the only transfer points between NJT and PATH are 33rd where you walk from Herald Square to Penn, and Newark), so if you live further out in Jersey, you’re also out of luck.

          It’s a big pain unless you already live close to a PATH station. And going against rush hour traffic means fewer trains, meaning if you miss yours you’re later for work than you’d be if you were going in the direction of rush hour traffic… it sucks for them that they’re not getting as many candidates as they’d like, but it’s not my problem. It’s theirs for lying.

          2. New ED*

            This is irrelevant to how ridiculous the recruiter is but, in case it’s relevant to someone reading this, I wanted to clarify that you can transfer from NJ transit to the Path train in Hoboken. I used to do it regularly.

      2. Blue*

        I agree. It sounds like Wesley handled the situation very professionally – made it clear why they had an issue without going off on them for lying, which would’ve been very tempting to me. I’d consider this done and avoid that particular recruiter in the future.

    6. LCL*

      A different state? The recruiter had the gall to lie about the state the office was in? Me on the left coast is amazed anyone would try this.

      1. Wesley*

        Plenty of people commute from NJ to NYC daily. I don’t know for sure but it’s probably around a million. There’s a good number of public transportation options for it. A smaller but still significant number do the “reverse commute” from NYC to Jersey City. It’s not hard but it’s also an extra step that’s an extra transfer, 20-30 minutes more each way, and you need a different transportation pass for it (you can use a MetroCard on PATH trains but if you get a weekly, usually the better option, you can’t).

        It’s inconvenient enough that most NYC residents don’t want to work in Jersey, hence a lot of job postings will say “New York area” to hint they’re actually in Jersey. The thing is this company straight up lied.

        1. Jennie*

          Plus you can end paying more in income taxes, which can negate any potential extra bump in salary.

      2. Buffay the Vampire Layer*

        I had a similar bait and switch where I applied to a job in SF and when I got the interview info found out they were actually in San Rafael.

    7. Akcipitrokulo*

      “how I should’ve handled this situation better.”

      You couldn’t. You did nothing wrong and were professional at every point.

      You don’t owe them any response. If you wanted to, you could say to internal recruiter “I appreciate that you felt I was in contention for this role, but unfortunately it isn’t possible for me to work in your location.” If you *really* like the role, you could say to internal recruiter that the distance and lack of remote working is a dealbreaker, and see if they come up with any options for you… but be careful with that and make sure it’s in writing what is agreed re remote working.

      And yeah, negative glassdoor review for the accuracy of the JD is reasonable.

      1. Wesley*

        It’s also a tech startup, and I’m a programmer! Something like “we want new hires to work out of the office for the first 4/8/12 weeks, but we allow WFH for X days a week after you pass your probationary period” would make sense, but what I was told is straight up nope, no WFH.

        1. Akcipitrokulo*

          Yeah… from what you’ve said, in your position, I’d give it a miss – but main point is that you were professional throughout, and don’t let their weirdness convince you otherwise!

    8. MsManager*

      Their reaction is so bizarre. Surely this must happen to them ALL THE TIME.

      I would just put t out of my mind and move on.

    9. JJ Bittenbinder*

      I got an email back from the external recruiter saying he was “disappointed in [me]” for “not trying harder to make it work.”

      Of course he is; now he can’t make a commission off of you.

      I had a similar situation where a job was listed as being in my major city, when actually it’s 35-40 miles outside of that city, accessible by car only. I hate that shit.

    10. Psyche*

      I would probably reply that the location really doesn’t work for you and that is non-negotiable rather than ghosting. And leave the Glassdoor review.

    11. Rusty Shackelford*

      I got an email back from the external recruiter saying he was “disappointed in [me]” for “not trying harder to make it work.”

      “And I’m disappointed that you wasted my time by lying about the company’s location. What a sad, sad day for both of us.”

    12. Rui*

      Some recruitment agents feel so entitled these days. Agree with the comment above, you don’t need to show displease with the internal recruiter; just say the commute is not practical for you and leave it there.

    13. Jadelyn*

      You did absolutely nothing wrong. Nothing whatsoever. Both recruiters are being jerks.

      The external guy is “disappointed in you” because he was hoping to make a nice commission from sending you to this company. This kind of thing is why I’m exceedingly wary of external recruiters in general – they are super motivated to place you somewhere, anywhere, because they make money off of your placement regardless of whether you’re actually happy there or do well. I’ve seen a LOT of external recruiters fudge details and sometimes outright lie to hook candidates and reel them in, then get mad when the candidate learns the truth and bails because of the bait-and-switch.

      I wouldn’t ghost them. Just a polite, brief reply to both of them saying “I appreciate your interest, but I’m just not interested in jobs outside of this area, and I don’t anticipate that changing in the future.” If they push after that, then ghost them. But either way – I would leave a glassdoor review, not necessarily being super negative but just being honest that they pulled a bait-and-switch on you re the location, letting others know to be wary of the stated work location and verify that early in the process.

      1. Wesley*

        I think the internal recruiter may merit a response, but I’m still unhappy with them because they texted me. That’s a little too personal, IMO.

        The external one isn’t worth responding to. “I’m very disappointed in you,” coming from an almost complete stranger, is on a totally different level. He had all the time in the world to compose and review his email. I’m not going to bother responding, but I’m going to be warning other people to not work with him or his agency.

        1. Jadelyn*

          Eh, texting is getting to be a pretty common way for recruiters and candidates to communicate. It’s not at the level of ubiquity that email is, but it’s not seen as intrusive by most people anymore.

          1. Robbie*

            I think it’s fair to be put off by it and voice that, especially if you have options. Since Wesley dropped out of the interview process, I’d bet $5 it’s an intentional pressure tactic from a company that’s struggling to get applicants and/or decent candidates.

            IMHO jobseekers, especially if they have options, shouldn’t feel afraid to speak their minds (in a polite way of course). I’m also in tech, and I’ve told recruiters who cold call or text me that I don’t appreciate that and to not do it again. Have those people told other people in their networks “Robbie is kind of abrasive?” Probably. But I also don’t want to work with that type of hyperaggressive, faux chummy, go-getter recruiter, which Wesley’s also alluded to so I’m OK with it.

    14. MissDisplaced*

      Honestly, that recruiter can go pound sand!

      New Jersey is NOT downtown Manhattan. I wouldn’t want to do that commute either if I lived in downtown NYC.
      The company is being misleading. And they KNOW IT. Glassdoor and Indeed reviews!!!!!

    15. Narvo Flieboppen*

      Yeah, I’d leave a review for both and the review for company will make clear to any other job seekers who see it where the job is actually located.

      I had a recruiter email me the other week with an exciting opportunity for employment growth in my local area.

      I look at the job, it’s 1 step below CEO, which is several steps above anything in my job history, in a role in which I have no experience, and only 1,800 mile commute each way. O.o I suggested to the recruiter they had contacted the wrong person, at which point the guy called me in my office to discuss the job.

      He was not overly happy when I told him my very blunt thoughts on the prospect and my lack of interest in commuting most of the way across the continent every day. (We own our house and my wife won’t move away from her parents.)

      This thread reminds me, I should go leave a Glassdoor review for the recruiter’s company…

    16. 99 lead balloons*

      Ugh, I’d be tempted to tell the external recruiter “I’m disappointed that I was led to believe the job was located in NYC only to learn in the interview that it’s actually in New Jersey.” but that’s probably not a great idea.

      It wouldn’t hurt to tell the internal recruiter that the location really is an issue for you and you wish to be removed from consideration (best of luck etc. etc. etc.) once more, though.

      1. Allypopx*

        I was gonna comment almost exactly this lol. Be nice to the internal recruiter so as not to completely burn a bridge but the external recruiter I would say something snarky and stop working with them.

        I am not desperate for a job right now though, job hunting changes your appropriate snark levels.

    17. blackcat*

      I don’t see how “At this time, I am only looking for jobs in NYC proper.” as a response is pretty neutral and you can send it without worrying about it coming back to bite you. But I also agree ghosting is totally fine.

      1. Wesley*

        So I’m in tech and in NYC. This market is very favorable for job seekers right now, because there’s more openings than there are qualified applicants. There’s also a certain type of agency tech recruiter who will not take no for an answer—with them, your only hope is to either go silent or send off a very firm note like “I am absolutely not interested in changing jobs. Kindly remove me from your list as I will not be looking for a new job in the foreseeable future and I will not be working with you or your agency.”

        Feels like the winning move here is to not play.

    18. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Just let them stew over it, they are not smart humans to put it as nicely as possible.

      They don’t get to choose what is and isn’t a reasonable commute for you, I don’t care if it’s a “quick train ride”, I don’t do trains personally. If I’m looking for a job in This Area, I want it that area, if it’s actually in That Area, say it. They did this to themselves and you owe them nothing more!

    19. L. S. Cooper*

      I found a job listing for a company that claimed they were in Denver, CO.

      They were recruiting for an office in POLAND. The country Poland.

      Shame, too, because I fit all the things they were looking for. I’m open to relocation but…not THAT far.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        LOL I’ve seen confusion among the different Manchesters (UK, Connecticut, Massachusetts, and many more) but Denver to Poland is pretty huge.
        I don’t suppose they’d let you telecommute all and bring you to HQ 2 weeks a year, would they? That could be interesting!

        1. L. S. Cooper*

          I could work with a couple of weeks a year travel! Heck, I could give them a couple months– I’m a single young person, the only reason I wouldn’t want to move overseas is because I like being able to come home from holidays.
          And also I don’t speak a word of Polish.

    20. only acting normal*

      Er… are they counting the “short ride” from Manhattan to New Jersey as on the clock?! Because 20-30min each way daily *on top of however long it takes you to get to the start of that ride* is a not insignificant portion of your life that they’re being cavalier about.

    21. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Oh my no. The transportation difference between Manhattan and NJ is huge if you’re coming in from one of the outer buroughs, Long Island, or Connecticut. It’s even a big deal if you’re lucky enough to afford to live on Manhattan itself. “JUST” the Path train means you’re at the mercy of a second transportation network.
      Assuming that you stated that clearly at the outset, “I am not interested in dealing with the transportation issues” is more than polite!
      Signed,
      -former New Yorker

      1. theguvnah*

        especially with the poor state of both NY subway AND NJ Transit – i’d be tempted to say “if your company’s execs are financially committed to only supporting NJ governors who actually fix NJT I’d be willing to consider.”

    22. Lilysparrow*

      That external recruiter has some nerve. Disappointed in YOU?

      I’d probably reply that I’m disappointed he ignored my clearly-stated parameters and misrepresented the job.

      What a lunchpail.

    23. designbot*

      Honestly, I’d probably say something like, “Well I’m fortunate to be in a position to be looking for something that works for me as well as it does for my employer, and this situation just doesn’t. If the job location had been accurately represented I just never would have applied for it in the first place. Best of luck with this strategy.”
      Probably too rude for most, but GD I’d be pissed about that! My equivalent is jobs that say they’re “centrally located” and it turns out they’re actually on the westside, which would take almost 2 hours each way for me.

      1. Wesley*

        I think a better way of expressing the same sentiment is “you may get fewer applicants if you update your job postings to reflect that you’re in Jersey City. But each of those candidates will be more engaged and more likely to want to continue the process if they’re given that knowledge up front.”

        But I’d even shy away from that, because it still sounds like I’m telling them how to do their job. If anything, I’d convey that message through someone I knew at the company, which I don’t, in this case.

    24. AnotherKate*

      You did everything fine. This company/recruiter is the sketchy one and I don’t think you need to worry about burning a bridge with them. I don’t think you’d want to work for these jokers anyway.

      Sincerely,

      A Brooklyn-dweller who would not consider the PATH a viable daily commute.

    25. The Ginger Ginger*

      You could always reply, “And I’m disappointed in you for lying to me about the office locations. Guess nobody’s happy right now.”

      I mean, don’t do that. But man it feels good to think about it.

    26. Kat in VA*

      See also – “greater Washington DC area” and recruiters who won’t tell you what city the job is in. That “area” encompasses Ashburn to Manassas to McLean to Fairfax to Arlington to Alexandria to DC proper to Georgetown. That’s a relatively small area on the map but with traffic here at absolutely Biblical proportions, the difference between a 20 minute commute and a 3 hour commute is huge.

  10. SOAS*

    I got promoted. It’s an expanding department w/in my team/company and I”ll be managing it. I’m nervous but excited too.. A lot of details need to be fleshed out but I will be involved in the recruitment process which is something I Have really wanted to do for a long time.

    Biggest thing on my mind right now…any tips/advice on how to be a good interviewer???

    I’ve been thinking A LOT about the last few people we had that weren’t good hires. I was not at all involved in their recruitment process but I feel like MAYBE if I’d been part of the interview, I might’ve picked up on something? Of course hindsight is 20/20.

    I have been managing a team of 6 remote workers for a few months now but it was more of a slow transition where I was in-between roles, took over from someone else etc. I didn’t interview my current remote team but I have interviewed a few people during the busy season. One was a rejection and two were given the green light. One of them is working out fabulously but the other one quit a few days after training. During the interview, she asked “will I do X?” I said “eventually, but right now we would want you to focus on Y, and X will come after several months.” When she quit she said she thought she would be doing X. I felt bad about it but was told not to and it wasn’t my fault. I just feel like there is way more riding on this.

    I just really want to hire well the first time around. This will be the first set of people I hire as a manager and there won’t be any ambiguity or confusion about my role.

    So, any suggestions? I’d love suggestions on books too, I have Alison’s guide but would love more recommendations.

    Thanks!

    1. fposte*

      It’s great if your first hire is great, but it’s not the end of the world if they aren’t, either; it happens. Learn from the past but don’t just fight the last war–you’re looking actively for capability and competence, not reactively for somebody who isn’t like the last bad person.

    2. EditAnd EditOr*

      The most helpful things I found when interviewing:
      – Phone screens.
      A 15-30 minute chat really helps narrow down your shortlist. I tended to ask fairly bland questions, just to get a sense of the person – what interests you about the role; tell me a bit about your career to date, and how it led you here; that kind of thing. But a very quick chat, giving them opportunities to ask more questions too, honestly gave such a better sense of the person than just their CV and cover letter.

      – Practical exercises.
      Simple things like: here is a situation, please write an email to the client that suits the situation. Or: here is a dataset, please manipulate/present it how you think best. Or: Please give a brief analysis of this bit of client work. I used to really stress that it wasn’t a test per se, and there wasn’t a right answer – but that I wanted to see how they would approach it, and what their thought processes were. The key is that last bit was true – for every exercise, I genuinely wasn’t looking for a right answer. If they did something that we’d never have sent out – fine, as long as they can demonstrate their thinking behind it, and that their thinking was along the right kind of lines.

      1. SOAS*

        That’s a good idea about the practicals, I’ll bring it up. This would be for a remote position, so we’d be doing skype interviews. I’m not sure if it’ll be one or two interviews, thing sare still being fleshed out.

      2. Middle Manager*

        I really wish we had the opportunity to request a writing sample or give a brief assignment like you are suggested (especially drafting an email that is appropriate to the situation)! That would be so helpful! I’m in government though, super rigid hiring process. Best I can go on is how they write on their application form, which sometimes rules people out for me, but doesn’t feel like enough to say “this person can write well and make it appropriate to the context audience”.

        1. SOAS*

          I like the idea of practicals. This would be for bookkeeping so I am not sure what a brief assignment would look like as I never had to do that when I was job searching. I guess I am focusing more on the soft skills/attitude rather than the hard skills? The last few people just had really bad attitudes.

          1. Kira*

            If you do practicals, please keep them a reasonable length. I’m currently doing one that is supposed to take 6 hrs. 6 hours! Almost a whole day of work. I’m afraid they’re going to use my work or code somehow. Keep the practical simple – maybe 1 hr of work max.

      3. Minocho*

        Re: Practical Exercises

        I had one interview where there were a few of these, and I didn’t realize that what added value to the interview was them hearing my thought process, not just me getting some technical detail correct in this off the cuff tech test at an interview. Now I would better understand that, of course, but it frustrated the interviewer.

        So the stress that you want to hear their thought process and how they consider / prioritize / organize things is as important as whether they come out with a reasonable solution can really help the interviewee understand what’s happening better, and give you both a better experience!

      4. Loubelou*

        I agree practical exercises, they have been the deal breaker for me between two otherwise similarly strong candidates. It showed that one who could really talk the talk actually didn’t know how to do a critical task, and the other who had less (but more interesting) experience did a great job. But I would warn you not to look for quality formatting/grammar/spelling in these kinds of things if you are giving people a short time limit. As Minocho said, the important thing is that they can walk you through their process. In reference checks you can ask about the general level of quality of their work.

        Something else I have found hugely helpful is scoring. Give each essential and desired trait/experience a value and then score candidates accordingly. This has shown me that candidates I really *liked* actually didn’t have the skills needed, and has demonstrated competency in less interview-savvy candidates.

        Best of luck!

    3. Mr. Tyzik*

      Have a few questions prepared, but also be prepared to not ask them. I’ve found that keeping the interview somewhat conversational helps a great deal. Listen to the applicant and don’t be afraid to probe deeper for details or to ask followup questions on an answer. You may not get through all your prepared questions, but you’ll have a sense of how this person ticks.

      Congrats on the promotion!

      2. Federal Middle Manager*

        Similar idea, my best two pieces of advice are: Don’t ask leading questions and give the person time to think and answer. If you ask a question that clearly has a “right” answer, then you won’t learn much about the person when they give you some variant of the “right” answer (like, What would you do if you saw another employee do something unethical?). But also, interviews are WEIRD. It’s not a normal conversation and there’s a lot of pressure on both sides, so give the applicant time to think about your question, don’t just jump in with clarifications to fill the space if there is a pause.

    4. Putting the "pro" in "procrastinate"*

      I’m still learning how to hire, but here are a few bits of advice that help me:
      Think carefully about what type of skills you want the candidate to have for the particular job, and ask *specific* behavior-related questions that will help elucidate those skills. For instance, are you looking for someone trainable? Ask them to tell you about a time when they had to learn a new subject or a new skill, what was their approach to learning, how did they go about it, and what lessons did they get from that experience that they will apply the next time they had to learn something new. Or, ask them to tell you about a time when they got feedback they didn’t agree with. What did they do about it? Or, are you looking for someone who can keep a lot of different balls in the air and be self-driven about time-management? Ask them to tell you about a time when they had to manage several projects under time constraints. Ask them to tell you how they kept themselves organized and made sure nothing got lost in the shuffle. And again, ask them what they learned from the experience that they will apply next time.

      An important piece here is that you are asking them to tell you about how they behaved in situations that already happened, not to speculate on how they would behave in hypothetical situations (except for the “how will you apply this next time”) part.

      The tricky part is narrowing down the two or three skills you really want the person to have for the job. Is it an editing or accounting job where attention to detail important? Is the job customer-facing so that keeping a smile on even when having a bad day is important? Is it a job where priorities change on a dime so being flexible and responsive is important? And so on.

      One last piece of advice: Check references before you hire. If you have doubts or questions about any specific skills, it’s a good opportunity to ask the reference about them. Ask the reference how the person rates relative to other people they’ve worked with at the same level. Ask the reference if they would hire the person again.

      Good luck!

    5. Southern Yankee*

      Half the battle is wanting to hire well, so kudos to you. The other suggestions so far are great. I like detailed questions about key skills (i.e. “tell me about a complex Excel spreadsheet you created” will give you a much better idea of their skill level than “intermediate Excel” on resume).

      Best advice I can give after a lot of hiring experience: Pay attention to your spidey-sense. Sometimes you just get an odd vibe that makes you think something is going on under the surface. Hiring can seem very judgmental, especially when you can’t put your finger on what is making you pause. But when I’ve ignored the spidey-sense, it has bitten me. It really helps to have multiple people interviewing. Usually, we could figure out what caused that tingle once we compared notes. I’ve known groups that use multiple people to interview, but the hiring manager would essentially discount a negative opinion if they didn’t share it, which more often led to a bad hire.

      Just be careful that the unknown discomfort is not do to culture/race/gender factors. If you do have diverse interviewers, it helps avoid an unknown bias.

      Also, no matter how good you are, you are going to get it wrong sometimes. I’ve had a few people that were excellent at interviews but were terrible employees. I’m better at spotting it now, but it happens.

    6. Jadelyn*

      The biggest piece of advice I can give is, be super, super clear with yourself about what you NEED this person to have in order to be good at the role, vs what you’d like them to have. Maybe you’d like someone with a degree and 5 years experience, but the degree isn’t strictly necessary. Maybe you’d like someone who’s worked with this specific software, but what you really need is just someone who’s used this type of software before.

      Then, arrange your questions around those must-haves first of all. Ask follow-up questions where you need to, in order to get a good idea of what the person really brings to the role. “Tell me about a time when” questions are your friend. Steer clear of the gimmicky questions like “What fruit would you be?” and stuff like that. I’d stay away from “what are your strengths/weaknesses” also, they’re not *gimmicky* per se but they also don’t tend to net very useful info.

      Would it be out of place at your organization to ask a more experienced manager to interview with you? My org does that for new managers or less-experienced managers; we’ll have either the hiring manager’s manager, or another manager with more hiring experience join the interviews and work with the primary hiring manager. They don’t make the decision, but they can help make sure critical questions get asked and appropriate needs get screened for.

      Lastly – if you have a hire that doesn’t work out, don’t beat yourself up too much. Even great hiring managers sometimes pick a dud. It just happens sometimes.

      1. SOAS*

        What if my boss and I are at odds with each other over what’s nice to have vs must haev?

        I don’t think I will be doing them straight off the bat, I believe others will be involved so it’ll be nice to have that.

        1. Jadelyn*

          Then the time to discuss that and get clarity on what you need and want is now, before you even start interviewing folks. Have the conversation with them – lay out what you see as must-have vs nice-to-have, explain your reasoning, and ask them why they’re prioritizing different things.

          If you can’t come to agreement, then the real question is, does your manager have/intend to exercise veto power over your hiring choice? Because if so, no matter what you think, make sure your candidates meet the boss’s must-haves, even if it means they’re short on some of the things you feel are must-haves, otherwise you’re going to find someone you love and your boss is going to veto them because they didn’t meet the boss’s criteria. I’ve seen that happen before, unfortunately.

          1. SOAS*

            Got it, thanks! I just finished and sent over the JD to my boss and we’re going to meet sometime next week, so hopefully I can get more clarification. I did mention that the JD wasn’t final it was just a firs tdraft and I can retool it to their specifics.

            1. Loubelou*

              Scoring! See my comment above. If both interviewers do their own scores it is really helpful for objective discussion and comparison of candidates, and also helps specify why you think a certain candidate is particularly strong.

    7. Fortitude Jones*

      I just really want to hire well the first time around.

      This is a nice goal to have, but it’s not always realistic. Sometimes people who look amazing on paper and who interview well completely fall apart once they’re on the job. Then there’s the fact that, from a candidate’s perspective, you don’t really know for sure if you’re going to mesh well with a job until you actually get in and do it. The person you hired who said she thought she’d be doing X probably took the job thinking she’d be okay doing Y for a while until she could do X, but then realized that she hated doing Y in practice. If you keep hiring and every single person you pick ends up being a dud, then I think you should start looking at your hiring practices closely. But for now, it sounds like you’re doing a decent job.

      1. SOAS*

        Yeah.. my manager just told me I’m going to mess up once in a while , LOL. that it’s normal and not worry too much. I just came out of a busy season stuck with 3 bad team members so that experience has made me sore. Also I jus t learned that the company never really checked references before…explains a lot.

    8. Working Hypothesis*

      A few things to prioritize, IMO:

      1) Preparedness. Ask them about what they know about your company and see how much research they’ve done. Give them some of the interview questions ahead of time to see if they come in ready to knock those out of the park. Try brief practical exercises that can be done with minimal effort or with a lot of effort and see how much they put into them.

      2) Represent the downsides of the job bluntly. Tell them what excites you about the place, but also what drives you crazy about it. Don’t try to sell them if they aren’t easy to sell because they like what you’re offering. DO make sure they know the good sides of what you’re offering, so that they know what there really is to be excited about… but you actively want them to self-select out if this isn’t going to be a place they’ll love to work. (If there are simply not enough people who will love to work on your team, that is its own problem, and you need to figure out how to make your team a more attractive place to work.)

      3) Unless you absolutely have no choice, forget about people who already have the specific skills for the position and instead find people who love to learn, who want to expand their skills in your direction. Learners are going to go beyond what you need of them right now, and be ready for what you’ll need of them down the line, too. And they’re usually loyal to those who give them a chance to expand their range.

      4) Do not hire assholes under any circumstances, no matter how perfect their skill set. Ever.

  11. It's all a chimera*

    Well it’s Friday and they may have a reduced workload or schedule by today.

    Some find this therapeutic for them, to help others. There’s always time for that.

    When at work, does one really work all the time? Not really. I find this is a great diversion from even the most casual Friday.

  12. Dame Judi Brunch*

    At Old Job, we vented (complained) to our coworkers a lot. A lot. Now that I’m not working there, it’s really jarring to hear complaining of that level.
    So I try really hard to curb myself. It’s difficult but I’m working on it! My current coworker is still experiencing PTSD from the old place (we work together at awesome new place) and is still stuck in complain mode. Should I talk to her? Or let it ride and figure she’ll eventually snap out of it?

    1. Phighting Phlox*

      Some people move on. If it’s really a post-traumatic experience they need counseling (perhaps Short-Brief Focused Therapy that focuses on a specific issue to move forward). It’s not ok for her to take you with her down the negative journey due to your association w/ the previous organization. It’s ok for you to set boundaries such as, “I hear that XYZ was traumatic and upsetting. I want to support you as you move through this transition. But the complaining makes it hard for me to move forward.” If she says, ‘You don’t care,” try to show you care in other ways that don’t include entertaining her complaints. Physical boundaries may need to be implemented such as if she comes to your desk, it’s a no complaint zone. If she starts out with a complaint, you have to stop or re-start the conversation in new way. Perhaps your positivity about the job, her work, your work will help override her negativity.

      Put your O2 mask on for both of you

    2. Anna Canuck*

      Talk to her. Leaving a bad work environment is like getting out of a bad relationship – if you don’t learn from it, you repeat it.

    3. Venus*

      I would talk to her. Complaining that much isn’t healthy for her mental state, and it’s going to make everyone else less interested in spending time with her.

    4. MissDisplaced*

      Yes, you should say something to her. You don’t need to be harsh, but she needs a push to reframe her mindset after the OldJob.

    5. Blue*

      I would probably say something, but I would make it my issue. Maybe something like, “I’ve decided to make the effort to be more positive about work so the crap from Old Job doesn’t keep dragging me down or poison me for the new job, but it’s been hard to break that habit. I’d really appreciate it if you’d help me minimize the complaining about work happening around me. I think that would help a lot.” It sounds like that fits with what you’re trying to do, and if she goes along with it, it’d likely end up breaking the cycle for her, too.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Great script. This should let the coworker know that her endless complaining is no longer welcome without you being mean.

      2. Loubelou*

        Yes, this is great! There’s the potential there that you could inspire her to do the same, and even if not she hopefully won’t feel judged or maligned for expressing her feelings.

  13. Queen of the File*

    Just wanted to say that although the OP’s situation regarding Mandatory Trauma Poetry at work was horrifying, the comments that resulted were the highlight of my week. So many people here are hidden talents!

    (I hope this is appropriate for the Friday thread–my apologies if it isn’t!)

      2. OlympiasEpiriot*

        But, I don’t think I’d want to hear them. I’ll bet they’re made up of a ukulele, spoons, and an accordion with a guest clogger for special occasions.

        3. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

          I bet I can learn spoons! Who wants to join me on the ukulele and accordion?

  14. Cameron*

    Help me find a new career path! I am so sick of sitting in front of a computer or in meetings all day, every day. Criteria:

    *Pays at least $60k in the DC area
    *Doesn’t take more than 2 years or $60k in student loans to enter the field
    *Good work/life balance (I want to have some flexibility for my kids)
    *Involves interacting with people/patients/kids/community
    *Ideally in the areas of health, education, science, environment, or community

    Does such a unicorn exist? What kinds of roles are less about sitting at a desk, more about interacting and helping people? (FWIW I already have my MPH, but am willing to pursue another certificate or degree.)

    2. Argh!*

      Check usajobs.com where you can limit by DC area & by salary. Maybe something will be there that appeals to you.

      1. Cameron*

        I’m actually currently a federal government employee. So far, every single government job I’ve encountered at GS-13 level is just sitting at a desk, but I’ll keep looking. ;-)

    3. Hooray College Football*

      Medical or pharmaceutical sales perhaps. I did it in the 80’s (pre-law school). Jobs are posted, but I was recruited by another sales rep (he got a commission). Base pay plus commission, so be certain to review that. I was lucky enough to get in on the ground floor at Glaxo (before they were GSK).

    4. Not today*

      What kind of work have you done? Have you considered a government job? I work for the Commonwealth, albeit in Richmond. Been a state employee for 12 years-ish, over the last 15. Got into my current field in 2012, from a customer-service/data entry role. I didn’t surpass $60k until this year, but NoVA pays a lot better than the rest of the state. There are state certifications you can get, but you usually have to already be in a job performing procurement functions to take the classes to get the certifications, so that can be difficult. Also, the state does base salary offers on previous salary, so if you’re making way under $60k, they won’t offer that much. Most commonly, they’ll offer 5-10% raises, but occasionally more.

    5. SezU*

      What is your degree in? That might help determine how much additional schooling you would need, if any. If you don’t have a degree, can you share a little about your experience level? You’d be surprised what you can parlay into other industries!

    7. dealing with dragons*

      one of the things I’m looking to move in to is product ownership/management – for the most part the requirements are field knowledge and some kind of technical expertise in what the product is made out of. For me that’s websites, but can also be a physical product.

      I like it cause I still get to solve problems but I’m also not enjoying being a glorified code monkey, even at a senior SE level.

    8. NightQueen*

      What about a school speech-language pathologist? Healthcare, pays well, interactive. If you can find an opening in a school, it could be great for working the same hours as your kids.

      1. College Career Counselor*

        Cameron would need to return to graduate school for at least two years (not sure of the costs), and then do a clinical fellowship year under another SLP to earn the Certificate of Clinical Competency (potentially at far less than $60k). Make sure you look at how many SLPs are in an area first (and what the pathway is into the schools.) There are places where SLPs are very scarce, however, so it can be a good path!

      2. School Psych*

        I’m not an Speech and language pathologist, but I work on teams with school-based SLPs. Working in a school related service job(SLP, Psych, OT) is a fun, interactive job, but we also go to lots of meetings and spend a good amount of time doing paper-work. Report writing, meetings with parents and meetings to collaborate with other people on your team are a big part of all the healthcare type jobs that are in school settings. I actually think paper-work and documentation is part of many jobs where you’re interacting with kids, patients and the community. I work with several people who spent part of their career working in hospitals or community settings and transitioned back to working in the school setting because the paperwork and caseload requirements were similar, but schools had much better hours. There is good work life balance working in schools and having the summers off is really nice. I don’t think working in any of the school related service roles would get the OP away from spending a lot of time in meetings and in front of a computer. I spend all day in meetings about 2 days a week and most of those meetings also include our school speech-language pathologist.

    9. OtterB*

      I work for a not-for-profit in DC that, among other things, runs programs for graduate students to encourage diversity in our field. I don’t know about the salaries for the program staff, though I suspect they are lower than your target. But those staff are out working with students, with the faculty volunteers who present the workshops, with hotels etc. We like people with some knowledge of our field but we’re usually happy with someone with a knowledge of any kind of STEM. So maybe some kind of “program associate” position at an organization relevant to health or health education?

    10. CheeryO*

      With an MPH, I would look into local health departments and state health agencies, in addition to federal agencies. I do think you may be looking for a bit of a unicorn – I’m in environmental public health, albeit on the engineering side of things, and everyone wants a well-paying job with a lot of field time – so think about what’s most important to you. Higher pay and more flexibility generally comes with more meetings and emails, even in a role where you’re highly engaged with the community (either the public or a regulated community). I will say that even being able to get out of the office once or twice per week makes the desk time SO much more manageable, especially if you have control over your own schedule.

    11. sange*

      1) Advising or working with a healthcare/MPH graduate program at one of DC’s many universities
      2) Medical billing or administration
      3) Working as a patient advocate at a hospital
      4) Grantwriting for a hospital, lab, or university – or administering grants
      5) Visitations for social service or adoption agencies. Not sure if you would need additional credentials, but a family member used to do this and she had an MPH background. She visited foster homes and potential adoption families and interviewed/screened them on behalf of agencies. She loved it.

    12. Accountant*

      Nursing? You can get your RN with an Associates degree, high demand, good paying and can be working with patients all day.

      1. Loubelou*

        I agree. I work at an NGO as a programme manager (in my role this is managing programmes remotely and also grant writing, but all of this is bearable because the subject is so interesting and I know I’m making an impact on something I care about. I am about 80% behind the desk/meetings, 10% out and about in my city and 10% international travel. My salary would be around $60k in dollars.
        The added bonus is that NGO offices tend to be far more casual in tone than business/government offices, and the work-life balance can be great (as long as you get a place that is good at this – ask lots of questions at interview!!).

    15. Working Hypothesis*

      Licensed massage therapist! I’m in Seattle, so not sure what the DC-area training requirements are, but nowhere in the USA requires more than two years of training, and it typically pays between $45-$75/hour depending on whether you’re working in private practice (and therefore paying for your own studio, liability insurance, laundry, marketing, etc) or hired by a clinic or spa. You can make over $60K pretty easily if you work even a moderate number of hours. And it’s an awesome job for people who want to help others and don’t like sitting behind a desk… you’re the one health care professional whom EVERYONE wants to come see! :D

    16. Christina*

      This is a very specific suggestion, but what about working at one of the Ronald McDonald House houses? Definitely interacting with people, health background could be helpful, though I’m not sure what the salary would pay for a house role

  15. Art3mis*

    Are there reputable resume services out there? I have a friend that really should get help with her resume. I’ve tried to help her and make suggestions, but she thinks there’s nothing wrong. It’s overly detailed and has jobs that are irrelevant going back to when she was a teenager.

    1. irene adler*

      Would she listen to the resume service if they told her the same things you’ve told her?

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I would never pay someone to review a resume, I think they’re all scams. You’re putting a lot of faith in a stranger who may have little to no training or bad advice, like we’ve seen here countless times. It’s all so subjective, it’s not something you want to waste money on. She won’t listen to a friend but would if someone pretends to be a “professional”? Yikes, that’s her real problem right there!

    3. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Honestly, the best option you can do is to give her this website and let her figure it out. Because if she refuses to listen, that’s on her. Some people just have to fail on their own.

    4. Middle Manager*

      Does she have a college degree? I know sometimes college career centers can be a mixed bag in the type of advice they give, but I actually had a really good experience not to long ago with an Alumni Career Services Staff person at my alma mater. There was nothing terrible about my resume (I don’t think, anyway), but it was helpful to get a second opinion and she made a few suggestions that I think helped improve it.

    5. Drago Cucina*

      Your public library may free resources. We have an online resource where you submit your resume and a live person reviews it and gets it back within 24-48 hours. We also have periodic resume labs where we review and help format resumes. My youngest son has used the online resource. He didn’t believe me when I told him he didn’t need an objective on his resume. Look, the professional stranger said the same thing!

    6. ContentWrangler*

      I think you’d have a hard time convincing her to pay for a service if she thinks nothing is wrong with her resume. Have you tried showing her yours as a comparison? Or do you think she would listen if she just heard about the problems from an “objective” third party?

      Ultimately, you can’t fix this for her and it’s not your responsibility. It sucks to feel like you could help someone but they won’t let you. But, you can’t make her do anything.

    7. Not My Real Name*

      Try your state’s department of labor. They usually have a free service for this.

  16. Mbarr*

    Hey – how can I support my friend? We work at the same small IT company, but on different teams.

    My friend/coworker is a gorgeous woman. She wore a t-shirt with a fox on it last week, and overheard someone from afar (from a different team) joking about how it was appropriate cause she was a foxy lady.

    She told me that it made her uncomfortable (fair), but that if the comment had come from someone on her own team, she’d be alright with it. (For context, her team is filled with Good People we’ve known for nearly a decade, and she feels safe with their sense of humor – e.g. if someone made the same joke, she’d know they were teasing her, and not commenting about her personal appearance.)

    1. How can you reconcile accepting these kinds of jokes from one group of people at work but not the other?
    2. How should I have responded? (I just told her that her uncomfortableness is understandable, and their comment was inappropriate.)

    For context: She’s had a couple of instances at previous workplaces where men have made inappropriate comments or done inappropriate things that made her uncomfortable enough she started to dress “protectively” (e.g. switching from nice dresses to jeans and sweaters). She even had to lodge and HR complaint against one employee. So she says jokes like this trigger her.
    Further context: I’m also a woman. I definitely want to support her, but I don’t know how to address the double-standard.

    1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      1. It’s pretty reasonable to have different boundaries with people you’re close to than with people you’re not. It’s not fundamentally different from, say, how I will tease my coworker about how long she spent using a phone with a very badly cracked screen — I wouldn’t dream of saying such a thing to someone I didn’t know well, because it would be rude as hell and potentially tread on uncomfortable financial sensitivities, but I knew that for her it was just inertia and we’d talked for weeks about how she kept meaning to go get her phone replaced but kept deciding at the last minute she didn’t want to go do it yet.

      2. It sounds like in the moment you responded just fine. You affirmed that the comment was uncomfortable and validated her discomfort. I don’t think you need to do anything differently.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      It’s not really a double standard. Do you accept teasing from family members that you wouldn’t from total strangers? Do you have making-fun-of jokes you share with your friends that you don’t with acquaintances? It’s really quite normal that she would be okay with her own team making a joke that some rando from a different team shouldn’t be making.

      2. AnonEMoose*

        Agreed. Having different boundaries with different people is entirely normal.

        In the context of the science fiction convention I volunteer with, I’m very fond of wearing corsets as part of my evening attire. I have male friends who can walk up to me, give me a hug, and comment on said corset in…let’s say…frank terms. And that’s ok with me, because they’re my friends, and I know they respect me and my boundaries.

        Someone who doesn’t have that relationship with me…it wouldn’t be ok. Your friend’s situation is similar. With her team, she knows it’s a well-intentioned joke from someone she knows respects her. She doesn’t know that with this other person.

      3. Kiki*

        I agree that it’s not actually a double standard. It also sounds like the commenter did not intend for your coworker to hear the comment, which makes it extra uncomfortable. It makes me wonder how often these people are talking amongst themselves about your coworker’s looks.

        I think you’ve done a great job of being supportive so far. And maybe lay-off commenting on her looks for a while? Or at least make sure you’re not commenting on her looks more than you are about your more average coworkers? Even if it’s good-natured and received just fine, I imagine it could get old.

    3. Rainy*

      It’s not a double standard to be okay with something from friends that you aren’t from strangers.

      I’m fine with hugs from friends, but I don’t want every rando on the sidewalk to come up and hug me. That’s not a double standard, it’s having boundaries. She’s allowed to have boundaries.

    4. Coffee Bean*

      I think it is completely reasonable to have a double standard, and nothing you need to address.

      Those that called her a “foxy lady” were being inappropriate, and that is uncomfortable in a work environment especially from people who she doesn’t know well. Like you said, if someone from her team or someone she knew well called her that then that makes it less problematic because she could then sense if it was a comment on her appearance or meant to be a joke.

      As another woman myself, I think this is a case of asking her what she would want from you as support. I would ask her what she wants you to do. You can let her know that in this context you agree that it should make her uncomfortable, and then ask what would make her feel more comfortable. Would she like you to say something to them? Mention it to HR? Take her out for coffee and try and just forget about it for an hour?

      Best of luck to your friend! Comments like that really suck.

    5. A Simple Narwhal*

      I think your response to her was fine. But I don’t think there’s a double standard to be addressed, it’s just the natural difference in meaning a comment has when it comes from different people with varying levels of closeness.

      Like if a good friend/significant others says “hot damn your butt looks amazing today” to you versus a stranger off the street – with a friend/SO, they know you, there’s a connection and history, and you know them well enough that it is a genuine complement, and they know you well enough to know that you would take it as a complement and be flattered. Whereas with a stranger, there’s no history or connection, they don’t know you, they don’t know you as a person, and you don’t know if they see you as a person or just a piece of meat. You also don’t know if there’s danger or expectation behind that comment.

      Same thing with the coworkers she knows vs those she doesn’t. If the complement came from a close coworker, she knows that they see and treat her as a competent coworker, a person with skills and thoughts and feelings. A complement from them says “hey person that I know and respect, here is a comment on your physical appearance, it is just one of the many good things I know about you”. The coworker she doesn’t know? None of that background, none of that acknowledgement of her as a complete person, no comfort that they’re just teasing, and no guarantee that all they know or think about her is her looks.

      So yea, I don’t see a double standard. I hope this workplace works out better for her than her previous ones.

      1. A Simple Narwhal*

        Ah sorry, didn’t mean to pile on! There weren’t any responses when I started mine.

        But yes, I agree with what the others are saying, plus what Coffee Bean said about asking what she would like for support.

    6. Mbarr*

      All the replies are helping!

      My panic right now is realizing that *I’m* probably the inappropriate one. I tend to have a very joking sense of humor, and I take my queue from others.

      E.g. If I hear Jose tease Jane about something and they laugh, I think, “Oh, they have a good sense of humor.” Then I’ll use that as a gauge for my own sense of humor. (I start small, and depending on the reactions, I’ll figure out if they’re comfortable with my humor, or if I have to dial it back.)

      This makes me wonder how many people I’ve horrified/offended. :| But really, how else do you figure this stuff out?

      1. Akcipitrokulo*

        Taking your cue from your own relationship with them helps :) and starting small is probably good – also as well as paying attention to their reactions, pay attention to the jokes they make in return.

        But in general, it’s best to err on careful, and remember in the workplace even if you aren’t offending the other person in a conversation, you could be upsetting other people around you.

      2. Jules the 3rd*

        Well, if you’re doing offensive humor (aka insult humor, eg, referencing people’s appearance, personal attributes [eg weight], race, ethnicity, gender), you could just not do that. Even if the person you target has a ‘good sense of humor’, bystanders can easily misunderstand. Try humor based on your pets or other animals, or on sportsball teams.

        Insult humor normalizes harassment, discrimination, and abuse, just like ‘locker room talk’. Do you really want to be part of that?

      3. Batgirl*

        I think you’re ok because you’re starting small which means building a relationship. If there’s a relationship you’ll know their preferences. You can’t go in cold and joke about something potentially problematic like someone’s appearance or sexuality if the person concerned isn’t able to tell you, as a friend, those jokes are no good as far as they are concerned.

    7. Akcipitrokulo*

      It’s not a double standard :) Friends get to tease me about things strangers don’t, and my partner gets to tease me about things friends don’t. It’s OK to have that!

      The important point is that you don’t make jokes unless you KNOW that the person involved is OK with it. And, tbh, that means in this situation making sure not only that it would be welcome, but that it is said to them, not to a third person.

    8. buttrue???*

      I have to disagree with the double standard issue or maybe point out that there are nuances. It’s not as simple as if it’s from people you are familiar/comfortable with/know it’s okay but not okay from others. Everything is about context, tone, and subject. I worked with a woman years ago who would accept much higher level of flirting, sexual innuendo from those she liked than from those she didn’t. And this was from people she worked with every day. So to accept Foxy Lady from your office mate but not from random guy who works in the next office is okay. But it’s not okay if she will accept it from John but not from George who you work with equally.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        But it’s not okay if she will accept it from John but not from George who you work with equally.

        Yes it is – if she doesn’t like George as a friend, but she sees John as a buddy, then sure, she can want George to not be too familiar with her in the workplace due to the absence of that relationship. Basically, everyone gets to make their own boundaries when it comes to stuff like this.

      2. M*

        Yeah so, this is nonsense, and dangerous nonsense at that.

        Flirting is a two-way street, and if you’re going to flirt with someone, it is on *you* to ensure that they’re on the same page as you – and to be alert to the possibility that may change. If you’re not doing that, it simply isn’t flirting – it’s harassment. That’s because women – *and* men – get to have different boundaries for different people, based on the nature of their relationships with people. Sometimes, that’s simply about a relationship being more jokey and close – having a different shared history, more overlapping interests, personalities that just vibe better together. Sometimes it’s about a relationship being more *fraught* – that one party feels the other party has a poor sense of boundaries, for example, and needs to have them clearly drawn and never blurred. The thing is: people *get* to make those decisions, because flirting – or light-hearted mocking humour – is something that has contextual meaning: they’re shared communications, and the implications they carry depend on the nature of the relationship between the two people.

        The furphy that flirting is just a thing you put out into the ether – rather than a thing that’s directed *at another human being*, who has a right to have opinions about it – causes real harm. It devalues the lived experiences of those being harassed or bullied, it often causes workplaces and social groups to fail to take action against harassers and bullies and it makes it easier for harassers and bullies to self-justify their behaviour. It’s not OK, and you need to stop.

    9. Qwerty*

      1. I’m guessing if her teammate made a joke she didn’t like, she’d be more comfortable telling them to knock it off. It’s also has an element of laughing *with* someone instead of *at* them. A teammate would have been saying it to her, including her in the teasing, and which also gives her the option to say she doesn’t like the joke or the teammate to see if she liked/disliked the joke. Instead, it was overhearing someone talking about her and her body, which made it inappropriate. They weren’t teasing her, because she wasn’t even in the conversation.

      2. Affirming her feelings was a good first step. Beyond that, it might be good to ask her what kind of response she would like, since she’s run into issues with this before. Some people just want a friend to vent to, other people would appreciate suggestions on how to address the problem. Would she be comfortable saying something to person who made the comment? Or her boss or their boss? Would she like you to go with her for support? Or she may just want you to do exactly what you did – be there for her and care about her.

      I do recommend documenting this and any other instances/comments that you see. Not because I think this will turn into an incident report, but if down the line a pattern emerges or things escalate, it is helpful to have. Usually people don’t start documenting issues until they reach the point of wanting a report, and having something that says who made the comments and who else was part of the conversation helps speed things along. (Or shows that the commenter is different each time, but the same manager is always in the conversation encouraging that kind of talk, for example)

      1. Qwerty*

        Also I would encourage you not to think of it as a double-standard! Everyone has different relationships for each person in their lives, but that doesn’t erase the base-line standard.

        Since you are in IT, think of it in terms of permission levels. You set permissions for users as a whole, specific user groups, and sometimes individual users get exceptions. The coworker is in the general user pool – he has to obey standard workplace norms. Your friend has elevated her current teammates to a work-friend user group, where she’s more comfortable with them making jokes that cross into friend level. If her significant other happened to be working for the company, no one would call it a double standard that her boyfriend/girlfriend could kiss her but other coworkers could not!

  17. What did I get myself into?*

    I’m almost at the end of one week into my new job as an Executive Assistant. This is my first time as a true EA – I have held senior admin positions before where I supported several senior staff, but I usually had other responsibilities and projects I managed at the same time.

    My new boss seems like a nice person but she is also very, very busy. I feel like I have barely spoken to her all week and I am constantly questioning or second guessing my actions. I try to touch base with her when I can, but we are both back and forth between two offices, and she commutes back and forth between two cities. She is out of the office almost as often as she is here, and when she is in the office she is almost always in back-to-back meetings.

    I just received word that I will be given access to my predecessor’s old email inbox, which I feel will be immensely helpful. In a previous job I would use downtime to look through old emails to figure out if I was missing anything important, and often times I was! However, I’m wondering if there is anything else I can do at the moment to better support my boss in these early stages, while I’m still figuring things out?

    I don’t know her preferences or all her needs yet and am trying to learn. I already messed up once and made a scheduling error but fortunately it was fixable. My boss’s schedule is jam packed and I manage her calendar, so I’m trying my best to stay on top of things and be aware of all upcoming appointments and meeting requests. I’m feeling a little overwhelmed because I haven’t been given much direction, but I suppose this could be normal for this position. If anyone has advice for me, I’m all ears!

    1. Four lights*

      One week is such a short period of time–and with the amount of work it makes sense that you feel overwhelmed. I would try to keep the lines of communication open with your boss as much as possible. Maybe see if you can schedule some sit down time with her. You could also directly ask the best way to approach her if you have a question about her preferences.

      1. What did I get myself into?*

        Thank you for your input! We are scheduled to meet this afternoon, however a member of the Board just called and will be dropping by so that visit may cut into our time considerably. My boss told me she prefers text and she seems pretty responsive so far, however I also do not want to overload her. I try to limit texting when I know she’s driving or in an important meeting (however I’m still trying to figure out what constitutes an important meeting!).

        1. Four lights*

          And that’s where you can say, “Let me know if I’m texting too much, let me know if I shouldn’t have interrupted you…” She sounds like a good boss, and I’m sure she knows that there’s a learning curve. As long as you’re actively trying I’m sure you’ll figure it out soon.

    2. AudreyParker*

      I just had a temp gig that put me in a similar situation and really stressed me out – even after a month there I was still learning new things and ways to keep up with the exec’s schedule, so while it’s frustrating, it’s not strange you’d feel this way after a week. I realized people often forgot that I was starting from scratch, so wouldn’t always give me direction or background that I really needed, which meant I had to force myself to ask way more questions than I was used to having to ask. One thing I did was keep a list of questions I had rather than count on remembering; if I had been a permanent employee, I’d also have asked to set up some 1:1 meetings so we’d be guaranteed to talk. I’ve also had positions where I just had to send an email “digest” of questions periodically so I didn’t feel like I was barraging them all day long, you might ask if that kind of thing would work with her. Writing things down in general helped: I started creating a reference doc for whoever came next and that turned out to help me figure out where some gaps were as well as serve as my own ongoing reference. I had access to my predecessor’s inbox and that turned out to be SO invaluable that I made sure the (permanent) employee who took over from me had both that and my inbox to reference. Is there another EA there that worked closely/frequently with the previous EA? If so, they might have some insight as to how they worked with your boss or how she operates (I was fortunate to have this resource & it was helpful as well). Ultimately, I think it’s par for the course that there’s going to a learning curve as you adjust to a new boss & company, especially if they’re not always in the office, and there’s just a certain amount of trial and error that figures in… and lots of deep breaths.

    3. Da Lizzy*

      Are there other EAs that can give you a sense of what the priorities are and give you a sense of the lay of the land, who’s who, etc.? It’s a challenge to try and get information from someone so busy and some people work better with an EA than others. I say that cause I’ve been an EA for years but for the past few years I work with someone who is very self sufficient and not a great communicator… it’s been a challenge…

      That being said, it’s been a week. I would give myself a break, these things take time, to build a relationship, learn all the information that you will need and also build trust. Use your time with her as efficiently as possible and try to get a sense of what she needs most, what is most important for her in providing her support and you could maybe ask her if she has any tips or anyone she would recommend you ask for information or questions when she’s not available. Maybe a weekly one-on-one to check in in person, see if that sounds feasible to her. What did her previous assistant do well that she’d like you to continue doing? I once had a boss who in-between every meeting wanted to check in, when he came back to his office… I had another who asked me to not to come into his office more than once a day. Some are callers, others are more email, text, IM…

      I’m sure looking through the emails and hopefully getting some direction from her will be helpful. Best of luck and congrats on the new job!

    4. ManageHer*

      Former EA and former manager of EAs here.

      Since your executive is in so many meetings, I’d spend a significant portion of your time right now scrolling through the past year of her calendar. Take note of:
      *Recurring meetings she’s in
      *The people she meets with most often
      *Themes (lots of meetings about the budget in July; a recent focus on the strategic plan, etc.)

      If you don’t know what a project is, poke around the company intranet or shared drives until you find some documentation. If you don’t recognize a name, look them up on the org chart. It’s way easier to make informed decisions when you know that – if you know she has 3 check-ins with Anthony every week, you can probably cancel one if there’s an emergency board meeting, but you wouldn’t punt Anthony if they’re working together on a budget that’s due in 3 days.

      Even when they have time, it’s often difficult for executives to proactively articulate what they want – good admins make their work look effortless and feel seamless, and it can be hard to give explicit instructions on how to do that. So I’d honestly recommend just doing the thing you think makes sense when possible, then checking in later on whether you handled it correctly. You’ve got admin experience, so your instincts are likely strong. This is hard! But very worth it.

      1. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

        What MangeHer said. Get familiar with your Exec’s calendar–learn the recurring items. Do the same with phone calls. Take note of who calls often. Then when you do get time with her, ask her what’s very important and what’s sort of important. When you get access to your predecessor’s inbox, take note of what was asked of her and who did the asking. Introduce yourself to those folks. Explain that you are new and still learning the ins and outs of the job. Get to know your Exec’s rhythm and how she does things. Also observe how the others in the office approach her. It sounds like she doesn’t need a lot of hand holding (which, imo, is good. ). By the second or third month into this, you should be comfortable with the job. I’d be interested in an update :-)

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Try to remind yourself that the first weeks and even months into ANY job is challenging and a huge learning curve. So you have to be kind to yourself and know that there will be things to learn but once you have the knowledge, it’s in there for good and then your toolbox starts to fill up as you go.

      Keep your eyes and ears open, talk to people and do your research [you’re doing that it sounds like, so remind yourself nothing happens overnight and you will never pop into a role you’re going to grasp immediately, even with decades of training]. I’ve done this, I’ve fallen into spots where there’s a lot to pick up but after the ball starts rolling, it collects all the bits of knowledge you’ll need along the way.

      Look at files and notes from the previous EA if possible. Ask others if they’re available. Work with your executive to carve out even small bits of time to touch base and know what she expects from you.

    6. EA in CA*

      Congrats on the new role! It sounds like your executive and mine could be interchangeable. What I found really helpful early on was making it a point to routinely sit down with her at least once a week (either in person or remotely) while you are learning the job. That way there is a dedicated time for both of you to connect. That would be your opportunity to review outstanding items, get your answers to tasks, etc. Her success depends on you being successful in your role and as her primary support, it super important that you get as quickly up to speed as possible. Having access to your predecessor’s emails will be super helpful. See if you can also get access to her calendar as well. Then you can see what her rhythms are like (did she had regular 1 on 1 with executive, what other meetings was she attending, etc.)

  18. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    Wicked fast typing skills, knowing things off the top of my head due to the experience and being absurdly efficient in my general daily duties. I streamlined procedures and we’re mostly automated, I just have to catch glitches or special circumstances. I’m usually here on “stand by” and unless we’re hiring for a role or fish out a special project, I’m just twiddling thumbs until things land on my desk.

    We all work at difference paces and have different jobs, so it really depends on the size of a company, how theyr’e staffed and if we’re dead with work or not.

    Two years ago, my job would never have allowed this kind of downtime. I was working 60 hour weeks and all that time was running and processing the workflow of 3 people, no joke.

    2. blaise zamboni*

      I knew this was a nesting fail when I started reading, but part of me hoped you were just confidently starting a post with a list of things you’re awesome at. I’m not sure what the post you replied to was, but that’s a mood we can all get behind.

  19. Gene Parmesan*

    Update on my job situation. (I’ve posted here the last two weeks because I was negotiating salary and deciding whether to accept an offer.)

    I decided to take the offer. Although the highest salary they could offer ($63K) is lower than my current pay ($72K), it was a good move for me for several reasons. One, the new place has a very generous retirement plan that allows me to scale back my 403b contributions quite a bit and still come out ahead on retirement contributions. Two, the new job is much closer to my house and I’ll be saving on gas/mileage. Three, I see a better future at the new organization because I’ll have more opportunities for career advancement there, plus the organization is doing better and my current organization is struggling.

    Thanks for the comments and insights.

    4. Lucille Bluth*

      GENE!!!!

      (sorry. I had to.)

      Good luck in the new gig, I hope it goes well for you!

    5. Fortitude Jones*

      Congrats on the new job! It sounds like you made the best choice for your situation – well done.

  20. TheseOldWings*

    I have a question about temp agencies. I have spent the last 2 years home with my kids, and now I also want to make a career change. I thought that temp agencies would be a good way to get a job fairly quickly and get some current experience back on my resume, but it seems I have basically been ghosted by both agencies I spoke with. The first one had a marketing position available (I have an advertising background), but the company said they weren’t interested in interviewing me. She said she would send me jobs that I may be interested in, but I never heard from her again. The second agency had what I assume was a “bait and switch” ad to get me on board with them, and they sent me another job possibility, but then when I followed up after a couple of weeks of no contact, they said it had been filled internally. I asked about another position that was listed on their website, and that had also apparently been filled internally. She then sent me another job and said she would get my information sent over, but it’s been over a week and I haven’t heard back. I

    t’s been several months now that have gone by, and I guess I assumed that with temp agencies, they basically confirm you aren’t a total idiot and more or less just place you at a job. Even if that isn’t the case, I at least assumed that they would be frequently sending me open positions and off to interview with companies, so I’m really confused. Am I wrong about the nature of temp jobs, or is there something about me they aren’t interested in? I have an excellent employment record and have never been fired or laid off from a job, so other than the 2 year gap I have, I’m kind of at a loss.

    1. RainToday*

      I don’t know much about temp agencies, but just wanted to sympathize. Any time I’ve applied to a job with one, I’ve gotten a quick call back saying they wanted to discuss an “exciting opportunity” with me. The exciting opportunity is just a chance to confirm everything on my resume and answer a few questions so they can supposedly find a job that fits my interests. Then they never get back to me. The two times I actually went in for an interview it was a bait and switch for a much worse job than what I applied for.

      The last time I applied for a job with a temp agency, the guy e-mailed me four times and called me four times over two days about a job he was “working on.” He was being annoying and desperate, so I told him I could schedule a call if he wanted, but he needed to send me information on the job first (salary, title, location, responsibilities) so I could see if I was actually interested in it. His response was “Forget you! You can find your own job!” I don’t see why anyone likes temp agencies at all.

      1. irene adler*

        Actually, what you wrote about asking for salary, job title, location, responsibilities is a very good way to determine if you should spend time with the recruiter contacting you. Only spend time with one if they actually have a job opening to discuss.
        I’ve noticed that newer temp agency recruiters do a thing where they call persons they have resumes for, just to get an update on their situation. Then they switch into a “tell me what kind of job are you looking for” mode. A total waste of your time. I gather they may have to meet a quota on these calls. One guy left me close to a half dozen messages, using the very same script each time, imploring me to call him back to discuss “opportunities”.

        1. That Girl From Quinn's House*

          Yes, this. Back some years ago, I applied to a temp agency. They offered me one day’s temp work (a day I had a doctor’s appointment scheduled, with too short notice to reschedule it) and when I didn’t accept it, I never heard from them again.

          Except every 8 months or so for the next couple of years, I’d get an email saying, “Hi, this is [name of new person]! I’m handling your resume for Staffing Group now!” wanting to redo my intake meeting.

    2. irene adler*

      The job search is really up to you- even with a temp agency.

      Does your resume exactly match the skill set indicated in the job description? Or does the resume reader need to make the connection between something in your background and the specific item in the job description?

      IOW, are you viewing the job description in hopes that they will train you for much of the asked-for skills? Or do you specifically possess the skills asked-for? An excellent employment record is nice, but your resume must answer the question: “what can you do for the employer?”

      FWIW, what you experienced with the temp agencies is normal-given you don’t match the job description. Ouch, I know.

      Suggestion: find a professional organization(s) in the industry you wish to work in. Then find out if they have regular meetings in your immediate area. If so, attend. Network. Ask for advice, mentoring, resume suggestions, job tips, where to go to pick up needed skills, etc. Folks will be happy to give advice.

      1. TheseOldWings*

        So, my resume definitely does not match up exactly with what the job descriptions are, but most of these positions are entry-level or low-level administrative jobs. I have excellent soft skills, and I’m highly proficient with technology, Office, etc. but I may need some training on specific programs they may use in other industries. I guess my point is that if they want someone who already has more dedicated experience, that’s fine. But I would rather them tell me that!

        I will check out the professional orgs, thank you!!

    3. Garland not Andrews*

      It has been a while since I worked for a temp agency, but all the ones I worked for required you to call or email weekly letting them know that you are still available.
      Most handle a lot of people and keep an updated list of “Who is available this week”. Of course this is for true temporary work and not so much for temp to hire.

    4. AudreyParker*

      I’m working with an agency right now, but it took me for.ev.er to get one to even call me back and put me in the system. I’ve found it works a little differently now than it did the first time I did temping (when I got a couple of full time jobs through temp-to-perm opportunities) – I don’t know if there are just more people doing it, or companies are more selective, but it’s been harder to get connected AND get assignments. Once I signed up, I periodically got calls from random people there presenting opportunities that were often not my skillset – I think sometimes (for temps) they just want a butt in the seat and aren’t looking at your full profile. Eventually, the guy I initially interviewed with called with a longer term opportunity that I had to do a short phone interview for and did get placed in; once that ended, it took a few weeks to hear about something else that I’m still waiting to hear back about.

      So, things to remember about temp agencies: 1) total numbers game with them, they are focused on serving their *clients* not you, so you are one of probably many with similar qualifications, it just depends on how many job orders they receive that fit your skills how often they’ll reach out 2) definitely keep checking in with your primary contact (or however they’ve directed you to do so) to remind them of both who you are and your availability so you’ll be top of mind 3) the positions on the website are often filled soon after they’re posted, so don’t reflect real availability, unfortunately 4) the more specific or high level your requirements are, the longer you might wait for an opportunity (i.e. I said I was open to admin positions and a fairly low hourly rate for temping-only just to make it more likely I’d get temp work). If I was waiting for a permanent or temp-to-perm gig that actually totally fit my skills & permanent pay needs, I’d probably still be waiting.

      Best advice I can give you is to make sure to stay in touch with them and try to connect with several, but don’t count on them to guarantee opportunities. I’m lucky I’ve had some good chats with my contact so he remembers me, and between that and getting good feedback on my last placement he’ll keep reaching out with (sometimes) random things so that I know he’s looking out and maintain the relationship, but there are a lot of variables in play.

      1. TheseOldWings*

        I’ve been following-up every week or so and I’ve also told my contact that I’m open to really any position they are looking to fill and any contract length. These mostly seem to be low-level administrative and entry-level jobs. Thanks for your thoughts!

        1. AudreyParker*

          Yeah that’s pretty much my experience, too – I was getting calls for $13/hr on the other side of town to be a receptionist (yeah…nope). I think the majority of the need is at that level, and then you have a random collection of higher-level positions that it is a crap shoot as to whether you match the specs and are pulled in before other similar candidates. They may be more likely to hit up people who actually ARE at that level than people like us because they think they’ll be happier in the low-level placement or their needed experience is more immediate (i.e. I can’t remember the last time I had to use mail-merge!)… these are my theories, anyway. Wish I could be more helpful, but at least you are not alone in having this kind of experience with them.

    5. PhyllisB*

      I haven’t used a temp agency since the 90’s, but the two services I used were slightly different. At both you submitted a resume and had an initial interview so they could get a feel for what positions you qualified for/were interested in. After that, at Agency #1 if you weren’t working, you came in and signed a log indicating that you were still interested. They would contact you if they had anything come up they thought you would be successful in. If you didn’t sign in, no contact. Agency #2 after initial interview, you were expected to call in every Monday and let them know you were available and to see if they had anything for you. Perhaps they are expecting you to contact them?

    6. PhyllisB*

      Reading this reminded me of an experience I had with a temp agency. Not the two I already mentioned. This was some years later. When I went to sign up they didn’t seem very welcoming. Perhaps they didn’t really want older applicants. (I was mid forties at this time.) Anyway, they wanted me to take a competency test(fine) so they asked me to format a document. While I was in the testing room some woman came in and sat down close to me and start fiddling with the keyboard on a word processor and then turned to me and said, “I don’t want to interrupt you, but did you hear about that wreck?” I was trying to concentrate, but be polite at the same time so I just said no and continued what I was doing. Well, then she started adding details. I don’t remember what all but something about a ten car pile-up and multiple injuries/fatalities, ect. Well, of course this upset me and made me lose total focus. Then she got up and left…and I had made a complete mess of my test. And to make matters worse,I discovered this “accident” never occurred. I never could figure out what the motivation was for this. If this happened now I would probably request another chance citing the upset, but I was so thrown off by the initial attitude they seemed to have toward me, and the fact that what she was saying was so horrifying that it really didn’t occur to me to make such a request. Has anyone ever had an experience like this?

      1. TheseOldWings*

        Wow, that’s crazy! Maybe someone who saw you as a threat to getting temp work? What a truly bizarre situation.

      2. Da Lizzy*

        no… I thought it was pretty bad at one agency, while one of two in the waiting area that someone who worked there went up to the receptionist in front of us and starting acting like they were begging for a job… the guy never looked at us and the receptionist looked very uneasy but it was a true low moment for me, in what the paradise of looking for a job and thinking maybe temp to perm would be a good idea.

        but nothing like you describe… wow.

          1. PhyllisB*

            Oh, and surprise, surprise. I never heard a word. I did call once and was told quite rudely that if they had anything, they would contact me. I really never understood why they seemed so set against me.

    7. Lilysparrow*

      The things that helped me work successfully with temp agencies were
      1) To be open to a wide range of positions and industries in the short-term, even if it doesn’t match my long-term goals.

      2) Be very direct that your first priority is getting some work quickly. Then back that up by checking in frequently and accepting anything you possibly can.

      Seniority/track record, and convenience, drive temp placements. They always try to fill a job with someone they already know, and won’t work their way down the list to you unless everyone else is booked or unavailable.

      If you want to get further up in consideration, you have to call or email and check in frequently. If they can match you to an open job without having to work down their roster, they will.

      They are being paid by the employer to fill seats. The way to get the best roles is to make their job as easy as possible.

    8. Frankie*

      It really, really depends on your particular location, situation, and temp agency, sorry to say. I had great luck with one temp agency and terrible luck with a couple of others. Some agencies (or the companies that contract with them) are just looking for warm bodies who will work for very little pay. Others are looking for quality temp-to-hire candidates with specific backgrounds. It can be tough to know from the outside what an agency’s MO is. A few years ago one agency reached out repeatedly but then never contacted me again after I told them I’d be looking for “x” hourly rate, which was kind of low for the position and my career experience. Some of them are really looking for the bottom of the barrel, unfortunately. The less they have to pay you, the more they get to take home.

    9. Moonbeam Malone*

      I’ve had very mixed experience with temp agencies. Some of them do have jobs ready to basically “hand out” to competent candidates, for places that do large volume hiring (call centers, manufacturing, temp data entry) but especially if they’re hiring for a bunch of smaller companies they do tend to get less responsive. They often have a TON of candidates in their hiring pool and lose track of them easily. If they haven’t had contact with you in the last two weeks, even if the ball was in their court, they often assume you are no longer available. I actually had a job through an agency once I was all ready to go for, was supposed to start, but then never heard back with my start date after I’d completed my on-boarding stuff. When I did follow up with the agency they casually told me there’d been a processing error on the employer’s end with one specific thing that could’ve easily been corrected if they had just..let me know… Ultimately I did wind up doing that temp job but it was weeks after I could’ve started and only because I called them to find out what was going on! Definitely keep following up with your agencies, and doing so often. It’s a very different case than when you’re following up with a potential employer. They actually do need the nudging and reminders. BUT. You might also want to look for another agency if neither of these are working out for you. (And continue job searching on your own.)

    10. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      Wow!! I can relate. I can remember back in the mid-’80’s -Early ’90’s you could just call up a Temp agency, make an appointment with them. They would test you on your skills and sign you up. Sometimes that same day, they would call you and tell you that there was a temp assignment available, ask you if you wanted it, you said yes and off to work you went (for a day, a week, a month or Long Term). In most cases, no interview was required. And if the Client Company liked you, they would hire you. Things are soooo much different now. trying to get signed with a Temp agency is like applying directly with a company for a full-time job. Then IF you do get signed with an agency, trying to get an assignment is another chore. You now have to interview for a temp position. I say all of this to say. Don’t give up. Try and sign on with a few more agencies. Hopefully, you’ll sign with one that will be proactive in getting you assignments.

      1. AudreyParker*

        Exactly! I was coming at it with memories from the 90s/early 2000s and it was a real shock to discover how difficult it is to even get in the door now when I was thinking of it as my easy fallback if other avenues didn’t pan out… At least a lot is done online & via Skype now, so the logistics are easier :|

    11. Deb Morgan*

      I skipped over using temp agencies and just looked for temp positions on job boards instead. I got a temp-to-permanent hire job that way.

      1. 1st in Corporate*

        Exactly. This is actually exactly what temp agencies do. They often Troll the job boards to see what companies need help, and then their sales team contacts the company to see if they can provide candidates. You’re actually much better off in many cases just contacting the company directly. Then if they hire you I will pay you th troll the job boards to see what companies need help, and then their sales team contacts the company to see if they can provide candidates. You’re actually much better off in many cases just contacting the company directly. Then if they hire you, The company will pay you through an agency.

    12. Elizabeth West*

      I sympathize also. I had a great gig at one temp agency here about ten years ago; they sent me on all kinds of assignments and I even worked at their office now and then. But the last time I tried, they and all the others just took my info, gave me the clerical assessments, and then *crickets*.

      Except for Kelly. They kept calling me for logistics jobs where I’d have to figure people’s mileage, after I already explained about my stupid f**king dyscalculia and for which I was in no way qualified for due to many other reasons. God, what a waste of time they were.

    13. LJay*

      From what I’ve heard about temp jobs you need to be aggressive in following up with the recruiters. Like, calling every morning to ask if they have anything for you sort of aggressive.

      Then, once they place you once or twice and they see you’re not a flake or an idiot, you won’t have to be so aggressive because you’ll be a known quantity that they want to place and get paid for.

      I think it also probably depends on the types of positions you’re looking for. The method I mentioned worked for friends, but they were looking for basically any sort of office work – data entry, receptionist or admin assistant, etc. If you’re specifically looking for something in your degree area it will be more difficult for a couple reasons. First, it’s a narrower set of jobs than just anything. And second, if your marketer is out for a day or five days, whatever they were doing will likely just wait until they come back and no temp will be hired. However, if your receptionist calls out for one day or 5 days they likely need someone to be brought in to cover because it’s not like the line of people calling on the phone or waiting to enter the door can just be put off until they get back.

    14. Executive Assistant to My Dog*

      I’ve had really mixed experiences. I’ve had a temp agency bring me in for an interview, act really enthused when the interview went well, have me sign an I-9 as well as other papers so they could set up interviews for me, and then totally ghost. Wouldn’t even reply to a check-in email. On the flip side, I have also had a staffing agency flood my voicemail with so many interview offers that I woke up to a full voicemail inbox and they started sending me emails about it. BEST DAY EVER. I loved them. Clearly their employees were paid a great commission for placements because there were 5 people competing to send me on interviews ASAP. (I’m not trying to humblebrag here – they were obviously racing to get their commission. Everybody wins!) This was only a few years ago, so my first point is: try another agency if you can! Bigger agencies are usually better.

      Here’s an important question: are you using a temp agency or a staffing agency? IMO, staffing agencies are more likely to be helpful for what you’re looking for. They will have more things you’re looking for, like temp-to-hire jobs and entry-level permanent placements.

  21. Kimmy Schmidt*

    Inspired by this week’s “why can’t I wear shorts to work” post.

    What items of clothing do you see as Not Professional (the more irrational the answer, the more fun). What professional clothing norms do you break, or desperately want to break? What item of clothing were you shocked to learn wasn’t professional?

    You can pry my maxi dresses from my cold, dead, unprofessional hands.

    1. Emi.*

      I don’t know how irrational this is, but I believe that for work clothes, once the fabric starts it should keep going continuously until it’s completely done. Things like cutouts, keyhole necklines, cold shoulders, etc somehow look way more unprofessional to me than even off-the-shoulder tops.

      1. fposte*

        Oh, that’s an interesting way of phrasing it–I was thinking that strappy backs can look less professional, too. (I also think maintenance is a pain on clothes like this, so I’m happy to climb on board.) But does this extend to shoes too, or do Mary Janes fly below the radar?

        1. Emi.*

          Flat or with low heels, especially with a sort of hippy look: I don’t think they’re unprofessional although I personally find them ugly. But Mary Jane pumps look really sexy to me! They have for as long as I can remember. I think it’s Pavlovian conditioning from how common they are in sexy Hallowe’en costumes.

        2. Temperance*

          I’ve seen some gorgeous, work-appropriate flats with an ankle strap, although I’m not sure that crosses into Mary Jane territory.

          1. fposte*

            Though ankle-strap shoes used to be beyond the respectability pale, which I don’t really understand.

        3. Lepidoptera*

          I think the Mary Jane strap is “extra” in that the shoe would otherwise be a plain flat. A slingback shoe has a strap at the back that replaces the heel of the shoe, so that seems different. Thus, “adding versus taking away” is the mental barrier for me.

          (Note that I find this more of an interesting thought exercise than anything else, so please excuse the pedantry.)

          1. fposte*

            Oh, yeah, I’m totally going down the pedant hole on this myself. For me I think I just don’t see shoes the same way as body clothes; Mary Janes are actually pretty conservative to me (I mostly also see them with a lower, chunkier heel).

        4. stellaaaaa*

          Can someone explain to me how you wear Mary Janes? Do you wear socks that show underneath or nothing? Many years ago I found a pair of Mary Janes that were so comfortable and beautiful… But I didn’t buy them because I just couldn’t figure out how to wear them in a work environment.

          2. SignalLost*

            Over tights, or you can get ankle socks or the nylon foot covers and wear them without tights. The ankle socks I get are not the one with the little ruffle; it’s a low sock that rides below my ankle bone. I wear them when I want to wear closed shoes but no tights.

            1. CatMintCat*

              Every time I’ve tried those socks, they end up in a crumpled uncomfortable bunch around my toes. I have no idea how to make them actually stay on my ankle!!

      2. Anonish*

        I’m probably old before my time but we have a lot of very young salespeople who sometimes shock me with how they dress in the summer. If your dress is backless and hip-length, and might actually be a bathing suit coverup, I think it should not be worn to work. (Also our office is aggressively air-conditioned so I don’t know how these women aren’t FREEZING.)

      3. Sled dog mama*

        I completely agree, something about cold shoulder shirts in particular just screams un professional to me. Then again getting me into an even knee length skirt without tights, or leggings underneath is impossible (I don’t care if others wear them, I’m just not comfortable). I seem to have a the more skin covered the more professional I look attitude towards my own wardrobe.

    2. KatieKate*

      Sneakers!!! I will wear sneakers all day unless I have to talk to people who aren’t my co workers. My feat are under my desk, who cares???

      1. OtterB*

        Me too! Or even if I have to talk to non-coworkers, unless it’s really important. When I first started this job, I commuted in sneakers and then changed when I got to the office, but after a while I realized that nobody ared and happily stay in my sneakers-with-custom-orthotics. My feet thank me.

      2. Marion Ravenwood*

        Absolutely yes to sneakers. I do keep a pair of smart flats to change into if I need them for meetings etc, but I wear my Converse pretty much constantly at work otherwise.

      3. CheeryO*

        Yes! My office is on the more casual end of biz cas, but most of the women wear flats or nice boots or sandals. At some point I noticed that half of my male coworkers wear dad sneakers (you know, white New Balances) on the daily, so I started wearing sneakers too. My feet are much happier for it!

      4. JustaTech*

        Yes this! When I’m in the lab it’s sneakers or flat boots. If someone tried to make me not wear sneakers I would wear Danskos (chef/nurse clogs).

      5. SusanIvanova*

        Nobody has ever noticed that I’m wearing solid black Reeboks with my choir blacks.

      1. Drago Cucina*

        +1 For some reason they irritate me. I’d rather see a nice sleeveless top than the cold shoulder look.

      2. Nye*

        Me, too! But that might just be because it’s such an obvious trend that very clearly will run its course and then be forgotten. Much like zoot suits and legwarmers, I think cold-shoulder tops will become an invaluable tool for carbon-dating photographs in the future.

        I think where I come down is that ideally, work clothes should be more on the classic than on the trendy side unless you work in a particularly trendy industry.

        1. Rainy*

          Cold shoulders come in and out. They were really popular back when I was in high school, and then again about 6-7 years ago, and now they’re back.

        2. Dowager Countess of Downton Abbey*

          Wow, zoot suits. That’s really a throwback, hepcat.
          Of course, leg o’mutton sleeves were considered scandalous in my day…..

        1. Snarktini*

          I will NEVER apologize for wearing sandals to work! I’ve worked in multiple states and environments and never worked anywhere that open shoes weren’t ok. (Except when I had a “hosiery policy” way back when. It wasn’t a rule we couldn’t wear open toed shoes but it was a personal rule for me since it looks dumb to wear hose/tights with open toe shoes.)

        1. fposte*

          Oh, I had really nice pumps that I donated after I walked down an echoey utility stairway in them.

        2. Seeking Second Childhood*

          For the record I hated wearing corduroy pants as a teen because I swear the bullies could hear me coming.

      3. Lepidoptera*

        Agreed, but for context I often use PPE at work. I’ve spent over a decade needing steel toes for parts of my job, so it’s hard to reprogram my brain to see open-toed heels as work appropriate!

        1. Curmudgeon in California*

          This.

          My first jobs were in laboratories, and then I did field work, with appropriate PPE. Close-toed shoes, preferable leather, not fabric, are my “standard” by habit.

          If I’m in a total geeky t-shirt & jeans office, I might wear sandals. Maybe.

        2. Incantanto*

          Same. So much women’s fashion advice is on skirt based outfits, and I cannot wear that in the lab!

      4. Kittyfish 76*

        I have a few people where I work that will walk around in bare feet! Yes, they have shoes, but they’re kicked off under the desk. I find this both unprofessional and dangerous.

        1. A tester, not a developer*

          Ew! I see the stuff that gets kicked up from the carpet when I’m walking in black shoes. I don’t want that crud on my feet!

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Exactly. But I have coworkers who treat the office like it’s their home and don’t seem to care.

      5. WellRed*

        I loathe flip flops with an unreasonable passion and they have no place at work. Unless you work at a pool.

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          Even then. Flip flops are groooooosssss! (Sorry, flip flop fans! Know that I don’t judge you for wearing them, I just have a visceral physical reaction when I see them—or mandals— being worn, but I do my best to not let it show on my face.)

        2. Batgirl*

          (don’t read this while eating) I used to sit next to a rival reporter at local council meetings and not only would she would wear flip flops but she would pick her toes if bored.

      6. Person from the Resume*

        Flip Flops are not professional. I don’t care how you might dress it up.

        I’ll admit, about 15 years ago I wouldn’t even wear them in public (except for beach/pool). I’ve totally accepted that they have become acceptable in public and embraced them, but they are never above the most casual and shouldn’t be worn into work or church or anywhere dressy.

    5. Rainy*

      Cargo shorts. I wouldn’t want to wear cargo shorts in the office, but it irritates me that the men in my office wear cargo shorts in the summer but the women in the office cannot because they aren’t “professional enough” on women, somehow. Men can go buy a $5 pair of cargo shorts at Old Navy and wear them all summer, but the only shorts that are acceptable for women are the suit shorts that cost $60 or more.

      (I work in a more casual higher ed office so the summer dress code is even more relaxed than the regular dress code but…CARGO SHORTS?!)

      1. Drago Cucina*

        No, I have explicitly said, ‘No cargo or denim shorts.’ I have told men and women they may wear nice, knee length shorts at the library. One of my sons used to be a legal runner and in the summer the law firm encouraged him to wear nice shorts and a polo.

    6. Nanc*

      I don’t know that it’s really unprofessional but the cold shoulder and slit sleeve tops for women drive me nuts! If it’s cold enough for long sleeves, have actual sleeves! When they first started popping up I always assumed some poor soul had accidentally torn their shirt and didn’t have time to run out to the store.

      1. Kimmy Schmidt*

        I don’t like the cold shoulders either. It’s a personal hang-up but I think they’re so unflattering and weird.

      2. Sam Sepiol*

        You’ve reminded me: short sleeved jumpers (aka sweaters). Is it cold enough for a jumper or is out warm enough for short sleeves?! IT CANNOT BE BOTH.

        1. OhGee*

          I am a person who needs torso warmth more than arm warmth, so I love short-sleeved sweaters.

        2. Seeking Second Childhood*

          If my shoulders get cold, my neck tends to cramp up. If I get hot I tend to get cranky.
          Shirt sleeved light knit cardigan for the win.

      3. Temperature Keeper*

        You know the “warmth value” of sleeves (a term I just made up that means “how much it warms the wearer” COMPLETELY depends on the fabric of the sleeve, right? So, I mean, the cold-shoulders top is likely not made of flannel, you know that, right? It’s usually light rayon or polyester, and adds little to no warmth to the wearer?

        1. Nanc*

          I’m in the Pacific Northwest. Trust me, there are flannel cold shoulder tops in the workplace!

    7. Kimmy Schmidt*

      I will say that I work in an academic library, and both higher ed and libraries are fields that are not exactly known for high standards of what is considered professional.

      1. fposte*

        Yeah, similar, and you have to go pretty far before I’m an actual “no.” Decent shorts are fine, sandals are fine, and those aren’t gendered allowances. No workout clothes, I guess, including sports bras on their own and leggings as pants. Oh, and no pajamas.

    8. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      My co-worker was so thrilled about the boots her sons bought her for Christmas she wore them in the office one day. They were high heels and went above the knee. My first thought was “stripper boots.” She hasn’t worn them since though. As for myself, I don’t break the norms much but will occasionally wear sneakers when the foot problems I have are acting up.

      1. CupcakeCounter*

        I wear knee high boots all the time to work but over the knee boots are stripper territory and highly unprofessional. I wonder why that is????

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          Srsly – because strippers would have a hard time getting out of thigh-high boots. And do boots really work well on poles? Inquiring minds want to know.

          I see them and think ‘superhero boots’, but I am a geek.

          1. Hobbyist poler*

            Depends on what the boots are made of. Vinyl or leather? Sure. Cotton? Not so much.

        2. designbot*

          because knee high boots meet a standard office-length skirt, but knee high boots need a much shorter skirt (or perhaps leggings?) to see their full length. Plus, they just make you think of someone’s thighs, and thighs are an outside-the-office topic for sure.

      2. WellRed*

        I had a coworker come in wearing stripper boots once. She had gone clothes shopping with her 18 yo daughter after losing some weight. She only wore them once, I think she realized they were not the best office choice.

        1. Overeducated*

          I have one coworker who has pulled them off, but I think the keys were a) they were plain other than the silhouette, b) she is quite tall so they didn’t look as ridiculous as they would on someone my height, and c) the rest of her outfit was very modest, low key, and appropriate for a business casual environment (something like dark leggings, a long professional looking sweater or tunic or something with a high neck, and nice jewelry). Most of us couldn’t do it.

      3. PhyllisB*

        Not work related, but I bought a dress that I knew would look great with boots, so I asked my husband for black suede knee high boots for Christmas. My two daughters were shocked!! They kept saying “Mom!! You don’t REALLY want knee high boots, do you?” I mean, I know I’m 68 years old, but does that mean I can’t look stylish? Well, finally I lost my temper and said, (yelled) “It’s not like I’m asking for thigh high red leather boots and a bullwhip!!” My (88 year old) mother cracked up. BTW, I received the boots, and they look lovely.

    9. LaDeeDa*

      That is one of my favorite topics we have ever had. I really love fashion.

      I love maxi-dresses and wear them all the time, but they are in my “Not Professional” category. I wouldn’t wear one to work.
      My offices are business casual, depending on who I am meeting with I wear anything from jeans to a suit. I often will wear my suit with a solid white, black or gray, high-quality v-neck t-shirt with my suit, tucked in, with a statement belt, and usually a bright or patterned heel.

      1. Yorick*

        I sometimes wear one on a casual day. Or I have one that I think looks professional enough with a cardigan.

        1. LaDeeDa*

          Can I ask what kind of shoes you wear with your maxi dresses? I think because all mine are casual and I wear them with a really casual sandal (almost always a flip flop) I have a hard time picturing them with anything nicer than what I wear with them. LOL!

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            I wear mine with wedges and espadrilles, sometimes strappy, open toe sandals with a chunky heel. It’s a very cute, put together look and isn’t at all super casual.

    10. Amber Rose*

      Shirts without sleeves. Even if it’s not spaghetti straps but a couple inches wide. Cover your shoulders. :<

      1. Kimmy Schmidt*

        I think this particularly topic is one of the more fascinating to me. I cannot seem to locate “professional” tops I like with short sleeves. They all look frumpy as heck to me. Every single work shirt I own is either long sleeved or sleeveless.

        1. Coverage Associate*

          I am finding professional short sleeve shirts are more rare and more expensive than long sleeve.

          1. Jules the 3rd*

            SRSLY. I think it’s a fashion thing. 15 years ago, I could find the exact short sleeved shirt I liked in 2 – 3 different stores. It was 1/4 – 1/2 sleeve, with styling like a jacket – medium heavy fabric, slightly fitted, tailored hem at the hips, 4 buttons, neckline around the collarbone. I had red, brown, grey, and 2 black ones. Wore them all the time (with occasional scarves for variety) until I gained too much weight.

            I have been hunting for replacements for them for at least 6 years now, and nada. zilch zip nothing. I got close with a brown one, but the neckline is too low. They’re all made to go *over* something, and yeah, US South, that’s just not realistic.

        2. Snowglobe*

          I agree! All of the short-sleeved tops I find have absolutely no shape to them and just hang down. But I can find sleeveless tops that are fitted at the waist and look really cute. Why?

          1. CheeryO*

            I think because the idea is to wear them with a cardigan or blazer on top, so sleeves are just added bulk. This drives me crazy too, because I work outside in the summer but still need to look semi-professional. I absolutely hate exposed armpits, so I’m always on the lookout for nicer short sleeved tops.

            1. Snarktini*

              Armpits! It’s totally ok in my field to be sleeveless but I am not very comfortable with it. I don’t have good arms, so that’s a reason but at the end of the day not wanting bra or armpit to show is ultimately what keeps me from wearing tanks professionally. Once in awhile when it’s super hot, maybe.

        3. KX*

          Cap sleeves look perfectly professional on the right blouse, I think, but perhaps you read those as “sleeveless.” Or perhaps my standards for professional are too SoCal!

        4. ClumsyCharisma*

          Yep, I resort to a sleeveless dress shirt and a shrug. Our dress code says shirts need to go to the end of your shoulder but I still don’t reel right wearing sleeveless in the office.

        5. Fortitude Jones*

          I can. Calvin Klein makes some really lovely shells that are sleeveless and very professional looking when worn with a blazer or cardigan.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Nevermind – I read that wrong, lol. Yes, short sleeve professional shirts are indeed hard to find these days. It’s either long sleeve, three quarter sleeve, or sleeveless.

    11. Not today*

      I don’t think it’s bad unprofessional, but I have a rather delightful story from a terrible time in life. My husband (now separated) had stage 3 rectal cancer in 2015. We went to see his radiation oncologist pretty regularly, as one does during cancer treatment. And this doctor (Dr. Eichler for any Richmonders!) would be professional dressed from neck to shoes…except he’d always have “fun” socks on. They weren’t professional at all, but when you’re seeing cancer patients all day, I guess he got to bring in a little bit of fun on his socks.

      1. Bananatiel*

        My oncologist always wears fun bowties (cancer-free now just have regular check-ins). I dated a resident briefly and he was workshopping what his “fun thing” was going to be in his otherwise conservative uniform. Apparently it’s a thing among some doctors!

      2. LaDeeDa*

        This is a thing at my company. All the men who are in areas of the business who have to dress more professionally, they ALL wear funky socks.

        1. Bostonian*

          Yep. My husband is in sales and he calls them “power socks”. The crazier, the better. I call it peacocking.

      3. Anonish*

        My periodontist always wore fun socks! I think it’s nice to know that the person doing your gum graft has a sense of humor.

      4. Kimmy Schmidt*

        I love this!

        My boyfriend is a pretty snappy dresser in a more conservative industry and always has fun socks.

      5. RandomU...*

        I guess this is one fashion and professional rule I break.

        I dress fairly boring at work most days: Black dress pants, patterned but neutral color silk blouse, neutral cardigan/black blazer (Why yes this is my work uniform). Here’s where I break the rules… I love mary janes with funky heels and I wear them with bright patterned wool socks. Now neither the shoe nor my socks are typically visible by anyone, but I’m not ashamed if they do peak through. (How’s that for being a rebel (with cold feet in the winter)).

        My ridiculous pet peeve in professional wear… men who don’t wear undershirts. Yes it’s usually apparent. Yes it drives me up the wall… No, it shouldn’t… and yes I’m judging you for this.

        1. Buffay the Vampire Layer*

          I’m with you – undershirts are extremely necessary in the workplace

    12. Justin*

      We are more casual on Fridays and jeans are allowed. I don’t really do it because I don’t prefer it but they can look fine on others.

      But my coworker comes in with a button shirt (obviously fine) which he always proceeds to leave unbuttoned with a t shirt (usually with superheroes on it) showing. I don’t care about the superheroes (it could be anything), but I feel like we just come off looking sloppy if that’s how we represent ourselves. Fully understand that we live in the time of hoodie CEOs but we don’t work for such a company.

    13. NicoleK*

      Leggings. My workplace prohibits leggings, but many women still wear them. Myself included.

      1. Middle Manager*

        I don’t mind leggings under a dress, as a substitute for tights, particularly for people with modest dress standards. I do agree that they are disqualified as “professional” when they are a substitute for pants though.

    14. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Leggings by themselves (under dresses, long tunics, etc is fine). Unless you’re working out or we’re sleeping together, I do not want to see your butt in full resolution. Work, home, etc.

      1. Bostonian*

        Hahahaha. Or your cameltoe. I recently started doing the leggings/boots/long tunic look, and I am always looking for long shirts to add to my wardrobe specifically for that reason. It needs to cover everything (which isn’t hard for someone 5-feet-and-change tall).

    15. Bananatiel*

      I totally wear yoga pants to work every Wednesday and I don’t even care anymore. We have an office yoga class that day and I can’t be bothered to change my entire outfit, especially the way our bathrooms are. I wear long tunics over the yoga pants and just change into the sports bra/top for the class. I noticed that even my boss has started doing it!

      On the shorts topic though– I started this job in October and I’m really curious to see how casual it gets in the middle of summer. Hoping I might be able to pull off bermuda shorts if I can get away with yoga pants in the winter!

      1. Kittyfish 76*

        Office yoga class! That sounds awesome. Where are these work places? Certainly not near me.

        1. Batgirl*

          My school does a free yoga class for staff on Fridays which is really helping stress levels. We can’t do casual dress but we have proper changing rooms.

      2. MeMeMe*

        I wear yoga pants every single day, but always with a long top and cardigan that cover my butt (usually to mid-thigh) and “business casual” shoes (like Clarks). (Hey, I’ve gained almost 50 pounds in the last 3 months due to medication and no other pants are comfortable, and I don’t like wearing skirts.)

        No one has ever said anything to me about my pants being inappropriate, but I do work in academia in a non-public-facing role, and there’s no official dress code here.

        The yoga pants I prefer are Reebok’s Fitness Essentials Regular Fit Pants, because the fit is slightly loose in the thigh, the inseam is 32″ (my inseam measurement), and the material is sturdy and opaque, so they look like, well, “non-gym-wear” knit black pants. (JJill and Eddie Bauer sell similar, more professional, knit black pants, but their inseams are too short for me.)

    16. Schnoodle HR*

      I’m an HR Manager and wear hippie skirts all the time. Long, flowy, flowers and patterns. I work in manufacturing. I strap on my steel toes when I go on the floor.

      That said, I find cold shoulder tops or cutouts unprofessional, and really tight jeans. At the same time, I don’t care that much about it. As long as you’re mostly covered, meh.

      I’m glad sleeveless shirts/dresses are getting more common.

      1. SignalLost*

        I mean, that’s thing. I just usually can’t be bothered to get worked up about what people are wearing, as long as they don’t do something as egregious as show up in swimwear (don’t ask) or with obscenities, threats, or exceptionally violent language on their clothes.

          1. SignalLost*

            I worked at an Amazon fulfillment center. They had a pretty minimal dress code, which they didn’t enforce AT ALL other than PPE (closed shoes and they provided gloves, vests, eye protection, etc). They also don’t cool the building – we were lucky to be in a newer building that was supposed to stay at 60F – so heat was a real issue, especially if you were picking on the 4th floor. One woman wore shorts (fine) and a bikini top (highly not fine, even for Amazon, where people wore basically anything). It’s an arbitrary line, and that was the only instance of them enforcing their stated dress code I know of, but they went for the fact she wasn’t wearing a bra and it was very obvious, I heard. They treated it as her wearing underwear as outerwear. I’m not convinced they would have said anything if she had worn a bra under it.

            It was frustrating all around. I tried complaining about the guy with the Oathkeeper shirt, the guy with the band shirt that praised sex with dead women, and the guy wearing A CAPE AND BANE-STYLE FACEMASK IN A HEAVY-EQUIPMENT FACILITY, and got nowhere, because apparently if the dress code was enforced it might be unevenly enforced and then someone would sue. Because a largely immigrant, ESL workforce making $14.00/hr in the era of ICE is gonna sue, and meanwhile, again, here’s Warren with his pro-necrophilia shirt.

    17. SignalLost*

      Due to working in overly casual industries on the west coast, I can say with certainty that pajama pants are unprofessional, by which I mean “you can certainly wear them to work but I will judge you hard and you will be found unprofessional.”

      Bustle dresses are in between (yes I know someone who wears them; I’ve worn one to work for Halloween once). If you can sit down without it becoming a production, you’re fine. If you long for a chaise longue so you can sit more comfortably, you are OTT. Trains are right out. Corsets depend on how much skin you show and whether you can drive in them (bench seats help). Basically, you should not have to change INTO your work outfit when you get to work unless you’re going in early to use the gym.

      SCA garb can have the occasional place, if you are not client-facing. Tudor gowns are only for exceptional events due to sleeve length (that was another Halloween). Fannish items are fine. Swimwear is a hard no. Fannish swimwear is still no. Sarongs over leggings are awesome.

      I don’t know. I dress like a goth businesspunk Disney princess, so I have no answers. (I was going to wear my tiara today but I have a dr appointment and my blue, teal, turquoise, green, and pink mohawk is Quite Enough.) But I do have a great tee shirt I got at a thrift store that’s hot pink with three giant lilies on it that I’d love to consider professional but I can’t because it’s got a LOT of glitter on it and the glitter sheds.

      2. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

        ….fannish swimwear? All I can think of in this category is mermaid tails. (If you can’t walk in your outfit, and you can walk when not wearing your outfit, your outfit is not work appropriate.)

        1. SignalLost*

          I have seen some things, man. I have Seen Some Things.

          (Granted, it was an Iron Man swimsuit that I would have bought in a hot minute if I swim ever, but I have still Seen Some Things.)

        2. Nerdling*

          Her Universe has a number of fandom-inspired swimsuits (there’s one patterned after Ariel from The Little Mermaid, and I’m pretty sure I saw both Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel ones, too).

        3. JustaTech*

          Think Geek had (has?) a line of Star Trek The Next Generation themed swim suits (one- and two-piece). I kept meaning to get one.

      3. AnonoDoc*

        Physician here.

        Please wear your tiara with your multicolored Mohawk.

        Please!

        2. SignalLost*

          Ha! I have 7 years of healthcare to catch up on (today was the starter pack where they took All The Blood, gave me a surprise!EKG, and did some other stuff I hadn’t expected). I will be back in soon, and I will wear my tiara!

    18. boredatwork*

      Shoes that make a “flip-flop” sound.

      My favorite thing I do is basically wear a glorified blanket around the office all day. It’s very lumpy/unattractive and no one’s idea of business casual.

      1. Lepidoptera*

        My boss bought me a leopard-print Snuggie for Christmas, which I wear to the printer across the hall as a fabulous cape. The A/C in here is insane.

    19. Garland not Andrews*

      The norm I break is wearing black lace up shoes (sensible shoes) with all my dresses and also several times a week wildly patterned stockings.
      The stockings are just for fun (who know they make compression hose in wild patterns!). The shoes are a non-negotiable. I very had feet to fit and these are about the only comfortable shoes I can find.

    21. Fuzzy Pickles*

      Slippers are unprofessional to me. I’ve seen people wear them in the halls at work, not just their desk and I just don’t understand how that’s a-okay. But, I try not to be so snarky because the unprofessional thing I want is a side Fanny pack when I don’t have pockets and don’t want to carry my full purse. Wallet doesn’t help cause I have to hold it in my hands. Sigh.

      2. Bostonian*

        OMG this reminds me of a former coworker in a lab who would wear slippers. Definitely not the dress code, but it was night shift, so nobody cared.

        And, yes, there need to be more dress pants with pockets!

    22. Middle Manager*

      Cold shoulder shirts are a professional pet peeve of mine. I personally think they are kind of ugly in general, so I’m taking that bias into account, but I just don’t think they are appropriate for professional office wear.

    23. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Rompers. They remind me of over-alls. Cute AF casually but please don’t in the office.

    24. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I don’t do maxi dresses, but I live in full-length maxi skirts when I have to go on-site for work. (A-line, not the flouncy boho type, and longer than ankle-length but not floor-dragging.) Those seem to get a general no-no when asked? I tend to pair them with solid tops and either cardigans or blazers. Never had any problems at my office, even when we still had the 8 page super picky dress code.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        I love my a-line tea-length skirts – nice neutral plaids in good material, they ought to be fine. They work as business casual in autumn with sweaters and boots, but for some reason I wouldn’t wear them in summer, and I wouldn’t wear them if I were trying for a really formal professional look. I think it’s the ‘tea length = social’ image.

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          I love that look (especially the autumn one you describe) on other people, but my proportions are such that if I wear a skirt that hits between kneecap and ankle, I immediately look dumpy. I don’t even know. :)

    25. Tinker*

      Last week I painted my fingernails matte grey and then went to spend the weekend in the woods pretending to be a not-an-elf (long story), camping in an ultralight tent, and playing the ukulele. What remains of the nail polish is still on my fingers. Otherwise, really, I look more or less like any other Denver-area software guy (in this case: flannel shirt, tech fabric cargo pants, mostly-enclosed sandals, almost all the facial hair I can produce groomed just enough to make it clear that it’s intentional), which is to say mostly conforming to one particular set of professional norms while rampantly violating many others.

      Back in the ancient days when I was in undergrad and interviewing for internships and the like, there was a point early on where I was still under the impression that “more formal” was “basically anything that involves a dress instead of pants”.

      (Yes, implication that there’s a set of norms applied to me that I have set on fire and merrily danced on the ashes.)

      Unlike how this stereotypically goes — the answer to what I was doing when I was 21 on a Saturday night was, in general: studying — the resulting problem was really more wearing things that my mother thought was “cute”. In particular: a stonewashed denim skirt that came down to mid-calf, a form-fitting cheerful yellow sweater, and marching band shoes.

      That was an awkward time.

    26. Brownie*

      In my workplace it’s more acceptable for women to wear a graphic t-shirt than it is to wear a cold-shoulder or shoulder/arm cutout tops. I’ve worn video game, roller derby, and brewery t-shirts and gotten fewer odd looks and reactions than I got for a full-length long sleeved cold-shoulder dress, which is slightly mind boggling considering my usual attire in the office is elbow to long sleeved full-length dresses.

    27. Sneep Snoop*

      Oof at this point I have no right to judge anyone. Ever since I was diagnosed with IBS I’ve been so uncomfortable in everything that my casual-professional-trendy wardrobe was entirely scrapped in favor of a mix of formless sweatshirts and stretchy pants. Fortunately my boss agrees that wearing clothing that doesn’t put me in pain physically is important (and we have a very casual environment).

      Only things I’m still able to consider unprofesh are clothes with inappropriate words on them, or clothes that are visibly worn out/full of holes/stained.

      1. Cheri*

        I was in a similar situation a year ago after surgery. An infected incision site meant I couldn’t wear anything with a snug waist (jeans were the worst) and grand-boss told me just to wear pajamas (I’d been mostly wearing casual dresses). The ONE day I took him up on the offer was the day I had to go fix something for our CEO. Who didn’t say a word. It’s nice when people are reasonable and don’t cling to ~~professional~~ for no real reason.

    28. Canonical23*

      I absolutely hate that jeans aren’t seen as business casual (at least in my industry). Jeans, cords and khakis, apart from color, have pretty much the same cut, so why are the latter two acceptable and the former isn’t? Give me dark jeans and a blazer with a necklace over cords and a sweater any day of the week.

      1. Kimmy Schmidt*

        In this vein, why are dark jeans seen as more professional?

        It’s so hard for me to even compute never wearing jeans to work because every place I’ve ever worked has been more on the casual end of business casual. But in my brain, I definitely categorize jeans: everyday professional jeans, Friday casual jeans, and off-limits for the office jeans.

        1. Canonical23*

          For me, I just have a tendency to get pen ink everywhere, so dark jeans are preferable as they hide stains better. As long as jeans aren’t holey or tattered, I think they fit in with bizcas dress codes (though many of my workplaces disagree). I feel that a lot of people associate lighter washes with a more relaxed look though, so there is that mindset.

    29. Plain Jane*

      Those camis/shells that have lace or other detail that makes it look like you’re just wearing a bra under an open sweater or blazer

    30. Cold lawyer*

      I’m not allowed to have a space heater, so I have a lap blanket and fingerless gloves that plug into my PC and warm up. It’s really awkward to have conversations with other lawyers while wearing a blanket, but I hate being cold.

    31. MissDisplaced*

      Not Professional:
      Anything with rips, tears, frays or holes, intentional or not.
      Daisy Dukes
      Full-on Goth or Vampire looks (but all black is fine)
      Fishnet stockings (though some were trying by layering)
      Costumes (unless it’s your job to wear a costume)

      Break the Norms:
      Leggings as Pants (sturdy, non-see through ones)
      Graphic T-shirts (non-offensive ones)
      A great pair of Very Fine Boots
      Converse sneaks with a formal Suit (channel the Tenth Doctor or Ellen)
      and
      ONE piece of something fabulous, outrageous and fun, or punk or goth your can incorporate: Such as a unique necklace, shoes, boots, scarf, hat, vest/bodice, shirt or jacket. I think this shows personality…. HOWEVER you must keep everything else toned WAY-down or else you are wearing a costume. It’s a fine line.

      For example: I do some cosplay and have a wonderful steampunk pirate coat. It’s far too costumey for the office proper, but I occasionally do wear it as an overcoat to work so I can have more enjoyment of it. Same thing with my Vivienne Westwood pirate boots, if I wear them to the office, I make sure the rest of the outfit is very plain and tailored as the many-buckled boots stand out. You have to be careful, but this can be done and still be very professional looking.

      1. SignalLost*

        Totally agree. I do corporate steampunk on occasion (pencil skirt with a flounce at the hem, white button-down, pinstriped vest, one of three frock coats or the tuxedo coat) and hitting business is more a matter of only emphasizing one statement piece

        Where I work now, we have no dress code, so I sometimes wear three statement pieces, but I like to yell.

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        I used to wear fishnet stockings to work all the time with sixties style A-line/fit and flare dresses that came a little past my knee, and I looked very professional, especially when donning my pearls. In fact, my boss used to tell me I didn’t have to dress so corporate all the time – and she was a director in the corporate office, lol.

        1. MissDisplaced*

          It’s been a while since I’ve seen them, so maybe I have a certain type in mind, with the wide holes that show a lot of skin? Thinking more like stripper type stuff.

          I do remember there were some types that had a smaller weave, and were sort of filled in with nylon, so they were more like textured tights really. Those options could be made office appropriate.

    32. Evil HR Person*

      I really can’t understand the difference between a flip-flop and a sandal that looks like a dressed-up flip-flop. They’re BOTH flip-flops! For context, I’m in Florida, where flip-flops are the de rigeur footwear. In my (very laid back) office, most of us will wear sneakers, boots (the guys, mainly), and slip-on shoes of some kind. I don’t have a problem with closed-toe, closed-heel shoes. I DO have a problem with any kind of sandal that doesn’t have a back. But, honestly, it’s my own personal problem. Nobody else cares, unless we have clients coming in – and we send out emails letting everyone know to dress a bit more business-like prior to the visit.

      *end rant*

      1. Person from the Resume*

        I do not understand your distinction of “sandal that looks like a dressed-up flip-flop.” They are the same thing. Flip flop isn’t a brand. It’s a style and even if you make it fancy if it’s still a flip flop.

        1. JustaTech*

          There’s sort of a difference between a leather flip-flop style sandal and plastic shower flip flops. Material quality and price sort of thing. Though Chanel will happily sell you plastic flip flops for $200, so who knows.

    33. designbot*

      Backless/low-backed things are super unprofessional to me. Are you not wearing a bra? Why am I even thinking about whether you’re wearing a bra at the office? I don’t want to think about your undergarments or lack thereof! Also leggings, unless worn under a dress or super long sweater. Leggings with a normal/waist-length top are super no go for me.

    34. Moonbeam Malone*

      Maybe a bit identifying, but I went to a professional women’s networking lecture where the topic was professional dress. One thing I remember specifically the speaker set as off limits: bows on your shoes. No one will take you seriously if you’re wearing ballet flats with bows on them! Who would promote you?! No one! Bows are for little GIRRRRRLS, obviously!

      Anyway, I feel a just a little bad for the speaker because I guess they got so many complaints the organizers, for the first time, as far as I know, sent out a mass e-mail apologizing for the quality of the lecture.

      1. RebeccaNoraBunch*

        Yeah, well, I’m a professional woman in her 30s and I’m very petite so I have to wear kids’ shoes and it’s VERY hard to find flats that don’t look juvenile. Almost all of my ballet flats have bows because they are, in fact, kids’ shoes. I’d have been really offended and would probably have said something to the presenter myself, actually. For me, it verges on being discriminatory and, because I’m small as a result of a breathing disability, perhaps even worse.

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        I’ve been promoted a couple times in my career, and I wear shoes with the occasional bow. No one was looking at my shoes, lol.

    35. Free Meerkats*

      Fursuits.

      Capes/cloaks.

      Though come Halloween, Gandalf the Pink will come to work.

    36. ThursdaysGeek*

      I’m pretty sure my black crocs don’t fill the bill, but they’re comfortable and little else is, so I’m wearing them.

      I wear black jeans and pretend they are slacks. And if anyone objects, I claim I’m a geek and don’t know how to dress myself. But my boss is in another state, and so far, no-one has objected.

    37. Minocho*

      I hate cold shoulder being sold as work appropriate. I don’t like it at all. I can’t wait for it to be less popular.

    38. JHunz*

      I wear Hawaiian shirts to work every day, summer or winter. I also keep a pair of comfortable slippers in the office and change into them in the morning from the boots or shoes I walked in.

      It will probably surprise nobody here if I follow that up by saying I’m a programmer. The clothing norms here are basically that you need to be wearing clothes.

      1. Daniela*

        This is my dream (minus the programming job)…if only our HR department would see it this way!

    39. Lady ALF of the House Perogie*

      Ha, I was just thinking about posting a rant about the boots my coworker is wearing today as a separate post when I saw this one.

      My coworker is wearing a pair of ankel high suede boots with a square chunky heel. The boots are fine, they go very nicely with her outfit. I just don’t know if they are too big or what but she is just *CLOMPING* whenever she walks. She usually has a regular quiet walk that I never hear but I just keep expecting to feel the floor vibrate through my calves as she clomps by today. AND, to make it more annoying, she is making like 50 trips passed my desk today which is WAY more than usual. Today is a relaxed cleanup day as we wind down from personal tax season (I’m in Canada)

      My faux pas include black sneakers almost every day, super Mario Bros. branded socks on days I do wear flats, wearing said socks mismatched (Mario on one foot, Bowser on the other), crinolines under my below knee and tea length sleeveless/cap sleeved dresses, wearing my sneakers or socks&flats with said dresses, two maxi dresses (in crisp no stretch cotton blend) that are always getting caught in the wheels of my chair, and let’s not forget everyone’s personal favourite: the oversized, slate grey, loose-weaved, waffle knit cardigan that I wear with everything when the office is feeling chilly. It’s looking the worse for wear but I haven’t found a replacement yet. It would help if I actually went shopping but I can’t remember the last time I went clothes shopping for myself.

      1. SignalLost*

        I’ve been considering getting a crinoline for a couple of dresses I have; one is a cotton rockabilly style and the other is a knee-length black knit skater dress. Any recommendations where to get one? I always see that Leg Avenue thing that’s clearly six inches long or else stuff that is suspect in quality.

        1. Lady ALF of the House Perogie*

          I ordered mine from modcloth.com. The sizes ranged from 0 to 5x. I bought the 5x (usually 2x-3x) and it’s a little tight but I wear it slightly above my natural waist and it works fine. I think it was around $50US by the time shipping was done. I’ve had it for six years, wear it at least 3 or 4 times a month and depending on my mood, it could be 3 or 4 times a week. I machine wash cold water gentle, hang dry and it still looks brand new. I think it’s technically dry clean only but I don’t have time for that.

      2. Batgirl*

        I have Mary-janes that clomp. They’re a small cute heel but my teacher neighbour nextdoor to my classroom tells me that I sound like an Ofsted inspector who’s coming to get her.

    40. Cheri*

      I am from the South and was raised by my grandparents with rules like “No white after Labor Day’ and the like. I’ve been in the PNW for ten years now and work in IT at a tech company where the dress code is essentially “Please be dressed.” My usual wardrobe is mostly lots of flowy linen/silk/knits but I have to admit, it’s kind of fun to occasionally go full shorts-and-flip-flops and get away with it.

    41. Jaid*

      Blankets, fuzzy slippers and stripper heels. But then my office really isn’t what you’d call professional.

    42. Ms.Vader*

      hahahaha…I wear jumpsuits to work 3 days a week. I pair it with long cardigans and a necklace. Looks fine to me!

      1. Lady ALF of the House Perogie*

        There is a jumpsuit online that I’ve been eyeing for ages. It has short sleeves, a belted waist and those wide leg car wash pants without the extra guaze layer. I just think it looks so smart but I can’t send it back if it doesn’t fit and I worry about how it will fit around my ample middle. And I can’t find anything in my size locally to just try on.

        Point of my story, I think some jumpsuits look great for business wear, I just don’t know if my body silhouette would agree.

    43. Overeducated*

      Sequined flats are my only unprofessional delight in my main office, where I mostly just work in my office by myself, but last week I was in a workshop in what I thought was a more casual environment where around 20 of us sat around a U-shaped table, and multiple people commented on the reflections from my shoes being distracting. So, uh, there’s a mistake I won’t make again.

      I think if I want to move up and around into more visible positions, I need to pay attention to looking professional and somewhat conservative right now…but I have a colleague who is pretty comfortable in her job and may not change again before retirement, and she dyes her hair neon colors without bleach so that most of it stays brown but the white hairs give her blue streaks. It looks amazing and is the only thing that makes me look forward to going gray.

      1. Lady ALF of the House Perogie*

        I have dark hair and dying the awesome bright colours is an expensive, extensive, hair damaging exercise so I don’t. Now you are making ME look forward to going grey. Unfortunately, my family tends to not grey until we’re in our late 70’s other than the occasional fishing line that crops up out of nowhere. But in 45 years, I’ll be the rockin’ 80 year old granny.

        1. PhyllisB*

          Yep. I’m 68 and was a blonde in my youth, but it faded to that muddy color that no make-up or clothing color looks good with. I have some grey, but just enough to look drab. So I am now a redhead. My mother’s side they started greying in their 20’s. My dad’s family not until late 70’s/early 80’s. I so envy these women with beautiful silver/white hair. Don’t think it’s in the cards for me.

          1. SignalLost*

            If you’re comfortable with bleaching your hair, Féria makes a silver dye, but the lighter the base the better, as with all blonde dyes. Or you could do it the traditional way and bleach till as light as you can go, then use purple-toned shampoo to get the brass out. The Féria will give you a lovely silver colour; the bleach and purple shampoo will get you to platinum.

    44. Curmudgeon in California*

      I’m a bit conservative. Here are my pet peeves:

      * Layers where the lower shirt sticks out at the bottom. Looks unkempt.
      * Bra straps visible – too casual.
      * Heels higher than two inches – it’s a job, not a modeling runway or a night club. Then again, I consider heels dangerous.
      * Mass market sandals – think Crocs and flip-flops. If they look like they were poured into a mold, they are too casual for the office.
      * “Distressed” jeans – if it looks worn out and ripped, I don’t care if you just bought it, it’s looks worn out and too much like weekend cleaning clothes.
      * I dislike “cold shoulder” tops – I keep wanting to pull them up
      * In general, if I can see your underthings (men or women), you are not dressed for an office.

      In general, I am leery of stuff that fits too tight or too sloppy. If it looks like you borrowed it from a smaller or larger sibling, you probably shouldn’t wear it to an office. Also, clubwear and officewear are not the same. (I remember the late 70s – early 80s, when some guys were dressing like they just stepped off of the disco floor. Ewww.)

      Yes, I’m a curmudeon.

    45. CatMintCat*

      I teach primary school, so my idea of “professional” varies wildly from most other norms.

      If I’m spending the day on the sports field, you bet I’m wearing sneakers, shorts and a t-shirt (usually a school one). If there is a bigwig visiting, then it’s a nice dress and good shoes. For a normal classroom day, jeans and sneakers and a school branded shirt is my go to.

      Our playground is overrun with cathead weed (caltrop, goathead, it has lots of names; evil thing with really sharp hard spikes). We all take (students, teachers, other staff) our shoes off the minute we come inside, so these evil things don’t get into the carpet for children to sit on (it is not fun to get a cathead in your bottom), or put their hands on. So, indoors, we all roam around in our socks most of the day

      I wouldn’t do it in an office though.

    46. I Work on a Hellmouth*

      I have two tulle just-below-the-knee length skirts (one navy with tiny flocked navy polka dots, one blush with tiny blush tulle flower and butterfly cutouts tacked onto the outer skirt (along with pretty blush embroidery). They are only worn to the office MAYBE two to three times per year, and I take great pains to style them very “office-y” so I don’t get called out on them (conservative shoes, blouse, belt, and a jacket or cardigan that screams I Am At Work), but I know in my heart of hearts that I am wearing my Eff You, Work, Today I Am An Effing Ballerina Warrior Princess And You CAN’T HAVE MY SOUL armor and that the whole world can bite me.

    47. Receptionist/Rocket Scientist*

      Ripped jeans on casual friday. Nope! I don’t care if it’s trendy – you still have to wear your Nice Jeans.

    48. FloralsForever*

      TIL: people really hate cold shoulder tops. Like really, really hate them. LOL

      Also, I wear a necklace with an expletive clearly written on it. I got it because my workplace can be pretty toxic so its a nice reminder to myself that I am my own person. My closer colleagues know about it and laugh but I turn it around for meetings so its not visible. Professional? Nope. But it certainly helps me kick butt around here.

  22. MegaAnonInTinyField*

    Hi Canadian AAM!

    I have a question: My partner might be moving to Canada for work soon. If that happens, I will move too, but not before I find a job for myself. I’m a Salesforce admin / consultant – does anyone know how the market is there, and if companies are willing to fix paperwork for foreigners (work permit?)? In case it’s relevant, we’re Southern European, so not super easy but not hard to get a visa for me. Thanks in advance!

    1. Anna Canuck*

      “Canada” doesn’t have a single job market. Where are you moving? Companies will do work visas for the right person in the right field, but it’s not necessarily common. Larger companies will be more familiar with such paperwork.

    2. Venus*

      Employment opportunities are very dependent on city. If you aren’t comfortable mentioning the location, then maybe the province?

      I could be wrong (I’m not sure if this applies to everyone or just some jobs), but I think a company has to show that no one else in Canada can do the work? So they would have had to advertise the position, and had no good applicants, before they could hire you.

      1. Rainy*

        I’m pretty sure that only counts if the company is sponsoring your work authorization. If OP can get a visa/work authorization themselves, while the company might still prioritize finding a Canadian to fill the role, they don’t have to fill out the “we couldn’t find a single Canadian to do this job” paperwork.

    3. Peggy Olson's blues*

      Do you know where in Canada you’d be relocating? The markets change quite a bit depending on location.

    5. LaDeeDa*

      You are better to get a partner visa, which will allow you to work, and not expect a company to sponsor you. It is expensive and most companies won’t/can’t offer you a work visa unless they can prove your skill/position can’t be filled by a Canadian or a Canadian Permanent Resident.

      ( I am a dual citizen, I immigrated to Canada and became a citizen before moving back to the US)

    6. OP*

      Ha, sorry, I’m from a small country and didn’t realise – it will likely be Vancouver.

      1. Anna Canuck*

        Unemployment rates in Vancouver are about 5%, which is considered medium low for Canada. It’s a huge population center with a lot of employers. Cost of living is very high (highest in the city center, with people making long commutes daily to live in the suburbs).

    7. littlemissvan*

      There are tons of tech companies here (including a Sales Force office, I believe), so lots of opportunities. You’re definitely better off handling the visa situation yourself though, unless your skills are highly in demand. Also be aware that Vancouver has an incredibly high cost of living, and lower salaries than most tech hubs. But it sure is pretty here!

    8. quirkypants*

      I’m in Toronto (other side of the country) but typically its hard to get a company to do the sponsorship if applying from overseas.

      Your skills are likely medium demand but typically I find most hiring happens roughly when they need to fill the position so they may not be willing to do the paper work and wait the weeks it takes to get approved.

      I suggest getting your own visa and when you apply using a Canadian address (though, if you do that they’ll expect you will be available for local interviews within a week of the call).

      Unless, you’re highly skilled and in HIGH demand it can be difficult to be hired from overseas. Not impossible, but you’ll have a much harder time and likely have fewer options.

  23. Matilda Jefferies*

    I’m job searching, and realizing that one of the things that’s really important to me is being part of a team. In all the usual senses of the word – working together towards a common goal, good communication, and so on. In my current job, it’s really just a group of people working in the same space – although we share responsibilities and work on the same projects, I can’t say that we’re working “together” in any kind of unified way. Of course I also want to avoid the opposite scenario, and I intend to run screaming for the hills if I get any hint that the workplace expects everyone to be Like A Family.

    My question is, how do I screen for this? What questions can I ask in the interview? I have a feeling that the question itself is going to invite a positive answer regardless – I can’t imagine anyone admitting that no one in their work unit talks to anyone else, or that they have really unhealthy and invasive boundaries. Is there anything I can ask, or any clues I should look for, that would let me know what the team is actually like?

    (I should note that in my industry, it would be very strange to ask to see the office or talk to anyone outside of the hiring panel. I’ve never seen it happen at any of the places I’ve worked, and it probably wouldn’t be allowed at many of them.)

    1. Anna Canuck*

      I’d ask about the kinds of work social events, and their frequency. My work group is cordial but not “a family”. I’d appreciate a little more interaction but overall it’s pretty good. We go for lunch every few months, go for beers after work every few months, have a Christmas bowling party, and people walk to the coffee shop to grab (to-go) coffee most mornings. Oh, and our newest member bakes cake for us about once a month. We like her.

      People that like each other and work together will interact more than the bare minimum of getting work done.

      1. Matilda Jefferies*

        Thank you! I probably won’t end up in a job where we socialize outside of work, but I like the idea of asking how the group interacts, and do they tend to go for lunches and coffee together sometimes.

    2. fposte*

      Can you use the words “collaborate” or “collaborative” to get at this? Or “cohesion”? I’m thinking something like “Can you tell me about the communication style in the office–do people work more individually, or is the style more collaborative?” Give them two options, both of which are okay, and see how they skew.

      2. Matilda Jefferies*

        That’s a great idea, thanks! All I need now is an interview to try it out…fingers crossed!

    3. Tortoise*

      Ask how the team communicates about things like current projects. This should give you a good idea of how people work together, in my experience.

  24. Clare*

    Commenting from the UK, where sarcasm is a cultural norm. The report of a friend of mine had an out of office reply set to say (almost virtually) “I’m away now. My colleague xxx is handling all queries while I’m away. Please contact her; she’ll pretend to care and to help but she won’t.” She found it hilarious as black humour was what kept them all afloat in social services but was sadly unaware till HR brought it to her attention and areed with them that it had to be amended.

    1. Mbarr*

      That’s hilarious. We had a coworker who’d leave novel-length out of office messages that we always eagerly read… But it was only for internal replies, never external customers.

    2. Mouse Princess*

      Maybe it crossed the line once it suggested she wouldn’t actually help? And since it is negative at another coworker’s expense, not self-deprecating?

    3. fposte*

      Was this aiming for the first thread today with a similar autoresponse? If not, that’s a fascinating zeitgeist moment.

    4. Akcipitrokulo*

      Also UK – I’d laugh :D

      I’d also appreciate the correct use of a semi-colon.

      (Maybe not for external audiences though.)

    6. Lobsterp0t*

      Oh my god, if I got an out of office like this from a social worker I would be so unimpressed.

  25. Kat*

    What kind of summer jobs are you or your kids looking at for the upcoming summer? My daughter wants to work but is kind of stumped on how to start looking. She’s only 15 so her options are probably pretty limited. Other kids she knows who are working got jobs by “someone their parents know” but we are new to town and don’t have a lot of connections here! (One place that does hire a lot of seasonal teens she can’t work at because her dad manages the operations so no nepotism.)

    2. Anna Canuck*

      At that age, summer child care is common (that’s what I did at that age). The local indoor playgrounds are hiring to cover staff vacations. Summer food places (ice cream stands, etc.) will be looking for temp staff.

    3. Minerva McGonagall*

      My sister was a lifeguard for many summers, at the local pool or at the retirement home pool or the Y. She always had her pick of pools. The high school offered a training/cert class, and so did the Y and now a lot of pool companies are also offering the training. I worked in summer camps and we always had junior counselors (those under 16) working there and that would become full counselors once they were over 16.

    4. Spreadsheets and Books*

      Does she have any interest in lifeguarding? Classes only take a week and it’s a high-demand job in the summer. I lifegaurded all through high school and on summers home from college.

    5. Nanc*

      Hmm. Can you get a work permit at 15? I’m old–I don’t remember. Parks and Rec almost always hire a lot of summer staff. Daycamps, playground leaders, building attendants, pool cashiers, extra grounds labor. If she is too young for paid positions she could go the junior camp counselor route at Parks and Rec. Or volunteer. Does the local library have summer programs where they need help? The local senior center–if they have any kind of meals program they may need volunteer servers and dishwashers? Animal shelter need dog walkers and cat petters? Check with your local chamber of commerce–they may need volunteers or they may know of a volunteer network she can sign up with. Is there a county fair coming up? That’s short term work but they always need folks for the trash patrol and to wave parking lot flags.

      1. Kat*

        Our state allows work permits to 14 and up with some restrictions on hours they work. Parks and rec is out because of the family connection and since she can’t drive, the neighboring towns probably won’t work out logistically. I’ll definitely have her check out the libraries/senior centers – great ideas. Our county fair is in September during the school year but it might be an option if she could work evenings/weekends.

      2. Jules the 3rd*

        I was a Camp Counselor’s Aide at 14 back in the 80s. Basically, I ran errands and washed dishes.

    6. Fishsticks*

      Check your local library since they might need to hire shelvers. I started working part-time at 14 at mine and stayed all throughout high school.

    7. Kat*

      For some reason I was under the impression that you had to be a competitive-level swimmer to get a lifeguarding job? My daughter is a decent swimmer but doesn’t have swim team experience or anything. We’ll look into that!

      1. That Girl From Quinn's House*

        Your daughter should be able to swim 12 laps without stopping, face in the water/breathing to the side, and be able to tread water, swim front crawl and breaststroke, dive into the pool, and swim to the bottom of the deep end to lifeguard. There’s a nationwide shortage of lifeguards, so instructors are interpreting the swim requirements very liberally these days.

      2. Jules the 3rd*

        It helps (and may be required) to take a lifeguarding class, usually through the American Red Cross or YMCA, 25hrs of classwork, cost about $300. The list from TGFQH is the actual test. Spend 30 minutes swimming laps for a couple of weeks and it should be easy for a ‘decent swimmer’.

        If she does lifeguard, I strongly recommend swim shirts. I wish they’d been more common when I was a guard. And she’ll want to remember to sunscreen her feet, they’ll be in the sun a lot more than she expects.

      3. Spreadsheets and Books*

        Absolutely not. I never did swim team or anything outside of normal swimming lessons growing up. As long as she can do a few laps, handle deep water, and tread for a reasonable amount of time, she’s fine.

    8. Bananatiel*

      I’m from the midwest so a lot of ice cream shops are seasonal out here and almost exclusively hire teens for that reason. Just a random thought!

    9. Eleanor Shellstrop*

      My first job was a bagger at a grocery store. I was 16, but there were 14 and 15 year olds around as well.

    10. PizzaDog*

      Dairy Queen or another ice cream place, probably.

      Depends on where you’re living, though. Here the minimum age to work is 16.

      1. wafflesfriendswork*

        In my small hometown getting a job at DQ in high school was a time-honored tradition! I think in my area you could work at 15, though (possibly with different restrictions? parent permission? I don’t remember.)

    12. WJan*

      Watching people’s kids and mowing people’s lawns are classic under the table jobs that don’t have a specific age requirement because they aren’t technically legal anyway. :)

      Our school district sometimes hires a few kids. And the local produce stands/farms will hire under 16. Otherwise, it’s brutal before 16.

    13. CatCat*

      Around here, 15 year olds can lifeguard and its a popular job for teens. Also, a local ice cream shop is mostly staffed by teens and young adults.

    14. Cranium*

      One I haven’t seen mentioned yet is garden centers. It’s a very seasonal business, and a good bit of low-skill work (restocking, helping customers load plants, cashiering, etc.)

    16. Zephy*

      Have you been told that she wouldn’t be considered for a parks and rec summer job because nepotism, or is that something you’re assuming?

      Also consider volunteer opportunities. Animal shelters, public libraries, political campaigns, community service project groups (often but not always faith-based).

    17. Seeking Second Childhood*

      There’s a kennel up the road from us that does doggy day care in addition to boarding cats&dogs… my daughter’s already thinking ahead to applying for a summer job in a couple of years.

    18. nearly time to go home*

      My daughter is also 15. She’ll be working at daycamps. She recently got a first aid certificate to be more attractive/have more skills. I paid for it. Where I live, she’d also be able to work at a cafe, a friend of hers does, but I don’t know if it requires a food-certificate (there’s a standard “how to treat food” certificate where we live that restaurants require).

    20. Owler*

      Tell her to ask at her school, especially if her school has a guidance counselor or someone in a similar position. Some schools have a bulletin board where they will post job opportunities. I ended up working part time at a publishing company after they posted a request with our school secretary.

      Like others, I got my lifeguard cert when I was 15. I was a decent swimmer, but not on a swim team. If she does any outside work, tell her to wear sunglasses. (And I second advice from the person who mentioned a swim shirt and sun screening her feet.)

    21. Hamburke*

      I also have a 15 year old who wants to work but is having trouble finding any place willing to even look at her before she’s 16. Our older daughter works at the community pool/gym doing front desk & concessions. Camp counselors need to be 16 there. She’s looked for regular babysitting gigs for the summer but they all want drivers (no way was I putting my young kids in a car with a new driver but ok…). I told her to keep her eye out for date night babysitting jobs or get together with a friend or 2 and offer a parent’s night out on Thursday nights.

      Garden Center and local farms are a great idea but we don’t have any within walking distance and I’m sure it’s not going to be on my schedule or my husband’s…

      Library Pages aren’t paid here (they’re cutting a lot of library services, honestly).

      1. Kat*

        Library page jobs get thousands of applicants here! No way a teen with no experience could get those. But one library has a summer program job that would be PERFECT for my daughter (the program is in something she has experience/coursework in) but of course you have to be 16. Which I guess is fine because its a little further away and would be over 2 hours round trip on the bus.

    22. Kat*

      These are all such great suggestions! My daughter is working on applications for an arts daycamp, county (not city!) aquatics, movie theater and car wash places!

  26. RainToday*

    Just had some interview related questions.

    1) What kind of answer is the interviewer looking for when they ask, “Tell me about a time you had to build a relationship in order to get something done at work?” I’m helpful, friendly, and quick to respond to coworkers, which I guess builds good relationships, but that’s just how I am in general. I couldn’t think of any specific situations where I had to work to “build a relationship” with someone in order to get them to do something.

    2) Is it a red flag if an interviewer asks if you have a “bubbly” and “energetic” personality for a job that doesn’t involve customer service at all (like one that’s sitting at a computer and doing reports and data entry all day)? I thought it seemed weird.

    3) Is there a good way to ask what kind of questions will be asked for a phone screening or an in person interview? It seems like it’s always the opposite of what I expect so I’m either over prepared or under prepared. Like, I’ve been told a phone screening would be a brief call to discuss my interest in a job, but then they spent 20 minutes asking me situational questions. Or going to an in-person interview and expecting a lot of situational questions, and then only being asked what kind of salary I wanted and if I was okay with the commute.

    1. Kat*

      1- All the things you mention – friendly, responsive etc – are relationship building skills so turn it into a narrative. Think of someone you collaborated particularly well with and tell the story. Even if that’s how you work with everyone! (IMO, it’s ok if these examples are somewhat composites too.)

      2 – it’s always possible the interviewer is straying to screen out these traits! I do solitary data entry work and know that many people who consider themselves “bubbly” would be miserable from day one. I probably wouldn’t word it that way in an interview but I am looking for people who are enthusiastic about working with quiet sustained focus.

      3 – i dont think you’ll get very useful answers whatever you ask before a first interview. Sometimes asking who you’ll be talking with can give you some clue. Like if you are looking at a sales support job, the sales manager would probably have a different focus than the finance manager. I’ve found that by preparing for a situational interview I am almost always either well prepared or overprepared – both of which are preferable to underprepared!

      1. Bostonian*

        2- I was coming to say the same thing. I think the interviewer could have phrased it better. They asked a biased question instead of a neutral one, but unless the interviewer explicitly said that they preferred those qualities, it is possible they want to make sure the person being hired won’t be miserable and lonely.

        1. Kat*

          Totally! Bubbly is awfully subjective and energetic can mean 1000 different things (an hour of my job would put many people who have energy for physical or social activities right to sleep!). I probably would have asked something about how the interviewee stays focused on long detail-oriented projects or what kind of office culture they thrive in, but yeah, its possible that a previous person in the position got nothing done and left after a month because he was such a social butterfly and they don’t want to make that mistake again!

    2. Rainy*

      1) They’re typically looking for indications that you can build and maintain positive relationships. A specific instance is going to be a better sell than anything more general.

      2) Hard to say. It’s possible that it’s a red flag and that organization demands that everyone perform happiness constantly lest they be written up, but it’s also possible the last person in that role or their last hire turned out to be a Negative Nestor or a Cynical Cersei and they’re trying to avoid that.

      3) I’ll be interested to see other answers to this, because I have never found a good way to do this.

    4. fposte*

      1. It’s okay not to have a perfect example, but it would be good to talk about your experience with something similar, like a new co-worker. It doesn’t have to mean “things were dicey until I consciously fixed it.”

      2. It’s not a red flag. It may mean the job isn’t for you, but that’s not the same thing.

      3. No, there’s really no way to do that. There are a few hiring managers that send you the questions ahead of time, but mostly being able to think about them in the moment is a big part of the interview. You can, however, ask for a planned duration, especially with a phone interview. “How long should I be blocking out for the interview?”

    5. Not So NewReader*

      For #1, perhaps too general an answer but I think that we all have to build working relationships with everyone. Because this is my approach, when cohorts told me that one particular employee was creepy/difficult/weird, I just decided that the bottom line is we all have to work together. When ever I had to talk to him I lined up what I needed him to know before I went to see him. I carried a work-oriented demeanor, you know, business-like.

      I do think that because I had my ducks in a row and I was to the point, I got a different response than my cohorts who joked around and said things that were in a grey area. People tend to mimic what they see, not always and not everyone, but there is a pretty good chance that if I am on track and focused then the person I am talking to will also stay on track and be focused. I had no problems with this person that others complained about.

  27. Mr. Tyzik*

    Had an amazing thing happen this week!

    There was an HR change to my role. I didn’t have to repost, I was just being reclassified. As a result of the change my eligible bonus was cut, reducing my total comp. So the reclassification meant a pay cut. There were a number of us who were affected.

    My boss, who is awesome, and grand boss, who is equally awesome, went to bat for each of us who lost bonus money, and insisted that we get a salary bump. My boss calculated the loss and she demanded that we get a salary increase at least equal to the bonus cut. I got a raise in the end.

    I’m beside myself. I spent 20 years fighting to get paid what I was worth, being severely underpaid at one point, until I switched companies. Now I’m somewhere that pays at or above market value and that’s a huge change (not to mention a welcome change to my bank account; I’m the breadwinner of the family).

    I usually have something to complain about given my job history; it feels good to be able to share something positive!

    1. AppleStan*

      Congratulations! It’s awesome you work for such amazing immediate bosses who recognize your worth.

    3. Brilliant Mistake*

      Congratulations! I’d rather have a higher salary than a bonus, since those are often discretionary. And you get the salary all while you’re there — I’ve seen some people feel they’ve had to stay unhappily at jobs until bonus time, and you have to hope the bonus will be worth it. And it’s great your higher-ups evidently appreciate you!

  28. SOAS*

    Just a chuckle. My report is on teh phone with a client and said “Ok so I’ll send the email to – slight pause as he reads out the email – Thunder kitten 69” (not the real email). We all cracked up and have no idea how he said it w/ such a straight face.

    1. Rainy*

      When I taught university, sometimes the students wouldn’t want to use the uni email because “they never checked it” and also “had not figured out email forwarding/aliasing” and I learnt pretty quickly that I had to ask for the email people actually used, because emails to their uni email wouldn’t get to them.

      One student’s email was “big_dick_on_campus6969” at a common for the time host, and I told him I was absolutely not emailing him from my uni email at that userid, so he’d better get used to checking his campus mail. He was, unsurprisingly, a douche.

    2. Canonical23*

      One of my favorite moments in hiring was when I was working as a full-time library clerk. My manager was often out of the office so all hiring questions tended to come to me, where I’d either answer it using the policy manual, or tell them that if they were selected to phone screen, that was a question they’d have to ask there.

      Anyways, we had a guy call in demanding if we’d looked at his application and I could not get through to him that management looked at every application and he’d be contacted by email if he was either rejected or selected for each stage. So finally, I asked for his email and said “my boss will get back with you” and no joke, this guy’s email address was I_am_the_King_of_the_world_420 (slightly adjusted for privacy). I made sure to pass it on to my boss and tell her to never contact him.

  29. Master Bean Counter*

    I need a little help.
    Found out that upper management is getting their health insurance paid at 100% while the rest of the people are only getting 50% paid by the company. I know this isn’t right under the ACA, but they have delayed the enactment of that particular clause. But the ACA states that it’s actually pulling the law from existing rules on cafeteria plans. The problem is with all of my googling I can’t find a definitive answer on the matter. So can somebody point me in the proper direction?

    1. $!$!*

      If you’re in the states there should be an Insurance Department that handles complaints and general inquiries. Anytime I call them for my state they always give me enough tips to figure out who or what agency to harangue (I work in oncology so they’re on my speed dial lol)

    2. Middle Manager*

      I am familiar, but definitely not expert, at the ACA requirements and I’ve never heard of a requirement that employers pay the same percentage of the premium for all employees. If you find documentation on that, I’d be curious to see it.

    3. Construction Safety*

      10 years ago, companies were allowed to have different classifications of employees. The example I was given was salaried vs exempt, but was told that wasn’t the only way it could be done.

    4. Thrown into the fire new manager*

      I’m not an expert but I have seen that employee benefits can vary by level of job. Executives can have benefit packages different than others in the company. The rule I have come across is that everybody in the same level needs to be given the same benefit opportunity

    5. Natalie*

      Have you looked at the IRS regulations for cafeteria plans? That’s where a lot of benefit laws live.

      1. Natalie*

        Posted too soon. A quick skim of the IRS guidance suggests your cafeteria plan can favor highly compensated employees, as long as you include the value of the benefits in their taxable wages.

        You might also want to look at ERISA, which is primarily about retirement plans but has some clauses that apply to health plans as well.

        1. Master Bean Counter*

          Thank you! That’s the part about the law that just wasn’t clicking for me!

  30. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

    I’m about to start the CRPC (chartered retirement planning counselor) certification course, and I’m both excited and nervous! Has anyone else done this? Was it as good a career boost as it’s advertised to be? How difficult did the exam end up being for you?

    2. fposte*

      Oh, that’s really interesting–that’s one of the respected certifications in a field with a lot of crap. Are you already a CFP or is this something you’re doing on its own?

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        The CRPC is the first step on the way to the CFP, and I’m definitely doing this with an eye toward getting my CFP in a couple years if I don’t crash and burn here.

    3. Plain Jane*

      I used to work as an admin supporting financial advisers at an F100 firm. None of my advisers reported the test being particularly difficult. I worked for two directors who didn’t seem to care if their advisers had any designations and one who did. It’s something that made clients feel better (especially if you are younger than about 35 and your clients are around traditional retirement age or you don’t have a proven track record of bringing in assets as a financial adviser) but empirically wasn’t tied to success in the role.

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        Thanks! I appreciate the feedback about it. Among other things, I’m distinctly lacking in a finance educational background, so I’m hoping to help balance that out.

  31. AppleStan*

    I actually do have a situation I want to ask in an open-thread, but I need to get it framed just right.

    In the meantime, I wanted to ask am I the only person who reads a great situation / advice /comments on the site, and then marks it in an appropriate chapter in Alison’s book?

    For instance, we just had one recently about an employee who is hassling coworkers about clothes/language/etc. so I popped a reference right next to the chapter “Convos when You’re the Boss” #8. I carry the book all the time and it’s beginning to look like a well-worn and annotated family bible!

    Just curious if I’m the only one that does this?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s a good technique to use to keep things handy for later reference.

      I don’t use notes in that way, so no I don’t keep them but they are often filed in my brain filing cabinet marked as “maybe need this for later tho.”

  32. CollaborativeGov*

    Hey friends: I work in a govt agency and my small staff and I manage programs and contracts with 100+ nonprofits for the city. We try to be good partners and keep open lines of communication. Most people recognize that everyone is trying their best, and generally we get kind and thoughtful feedback on how to improve.

    However, there are several long-time leaders who are unnecessarily hostile and mean to myself and my staff- going out of their way to gossip and make snide remarks in meetings, or completely ignoring us whenever we attempt something beyond form emails and basic functions of our work. It is deeply unprofessional and cruel.

    Suggestions for how to confront this behavior for what it is? I’m not confident we would be friends, but I’m looking for basic decency.

    1. ashie*

      I run a program where I have to get people in different agencies who bear a lot of resentment to one another to play nice, and I have no authority of any of them. It always helps to relate on a human level. They see you as the Big Bad right now, you need to get to see each other as people with different goals. Tour their facility, take them to coffee, see if you can sit down in a small group and talk about how what you each do affects what the other does.

    2. Hapless Bureaucrat*

      Speaking as someone who has been in a similar position, this is a hard question.

      You mention two different points: public sarcasm and lack of respect, and ignoring communications. I’m curious about those communications. Are they technical assistance, or are they items needed for compliance?

      If they are ignoring compliance issues or data requests you’ve got a bigger problem than lack of respect, and should take a look at whether you’ve been using all the tools in your contracts to get them to cooperate.

      What I’ve found to be key with both compliance and respect is having your leadership support you. Our Director made sure to be seen with us and supporting us at meetings, and addressing snarky comments directly. That made it clear to organizations that they couldn’t disrespect us and continue to expect support from above us.
      If leadership hasn’t been visible or, worse, has supported these complaints, your first step needs to be internal.

      Beyond that, I did a lot of listening (so did leadership). A lot of signaling that we were open to hearing valid criticism… and a lot of building relationships with other organizations, so that the problem organizations ended up having fewer listeners for their gossip.

      It’s also fine to, in the moment, call out behavior- politely but firmly. I don’t have any great scripts for that. My own method usually involved raised eyebrows and a long pause before reframing their complaint in a respectful manner and answering that. That’s far from perfect, and I’m still working on this one!

    3. Not So NewReader*

      How do you frame your job when describing your work to others?

      This question fascinates me because of the answers I have heard.

      My friend had to take a drivers test. The official got in the car and the first thing he said was, “It’s my job to help you become a good driver.” With that my friend exhaled in total relief.

      The Ag and Market inspector came to do a health code inspection at a store I worked in. (Our store was covered under A and M, not health department.) He introduced himself and said, “My job is to keep you and your store safe.”

      Honestly, I have to believe in both cases because these people had a description of their job that involved helping it set a tone. For their part, they used a teaching/explaining tone to convey information. On the receiving end of their remarks people seemed calmer and seemed to be listening more than rebelling.

      I am not saying that you and your cohorts are not helpful, please don’t read that in this. What I am saying is that you might have to be more deliberate about putting that word out there. Notice in both my examples here the person introduced themselves and went right into one sentence describing how they help. It’s a preemptive strike that MIGHT change the tone of conversations.

      I do agree that meeting with the snide ones privately is a route to go. It’s much harder to be snide when they know you and can connect a name to an actual face and person.

  33. Strother*

    I’m venting here since I’m sure most of you will understand my pain. Our company just switched to an open plan office. It’s only been a few days but I really don’t like it. The noise and activity are very distracting. I do use noise- canceling headphones, but I don’t want to wear them all the time. It’s not just the noise, it’s hard to concentrate with people walking around all the time. I also miss my privacy. Hopefully I’ll get used to it.

    1. pharmacat*

      Just wait, it will get worse. We no longer have assigned desks. It’s not even hotelling because we cant reserve a desk.every morning we just find one.

    2. Bananatiel*

      If you have a supportive boss, keep them apprised of your difficulty and see if you can’t arrange some kind of remote work agreement– if that’s something you can do in your job. We have an open office and the managers are really understanding that it doesn’t work for everyone. I don’t work remotely FT (we wouldn’t be allowed to anyway) but I do have the flexibility to plan in advance and get approval for remote work days when I really need to focus.

    3. Anonish*

      Wash your hands A LOT. We’re open plan and everyone in my office is constantly sick.

      2. Introvert girl*

        The washing hands thing isn’t helping anymore in my Office since everyone is caughing (me included). I’m going back to my doctor next week. OP, please get out

    4. 30 Years in the Biz*

      I play “Upbeat Instrumental Work Music” (found on YouTube) through my noise-cancelling headphones. This has muffled the background chatter and helps me concentrate. I really dislike the open office at my new company. There’s room for 40 in here and even with the first 25 colleagues it can be too much. We also have two especially loud talkers in our area. It is so stressful that I actually breathe a sigh of relief when I go into the restroom. To have a quiet “cubicle” of my own for a few minutes is a pleasure.

    5. Curmudgeon in California*

      We got moved to open plan hell just last month. It’s not the worst open plan I’ve worked in, but that’s not saying much.

      The window shades are automatically controlled, so now my desk looks trashy with the sunshades I’ve put above my monitors to keep the glare out of my eyes.

      I can only wear headphones for about two hours a day, so I feel your pain there.

      The only good thing is that I can WFH twice a week.

      That said, I’m “soft looking” for a remote only gig. I’ve had it with the disrespect inherent in open plan offices.

    6. Purrsnikitty*

      Ack, this was my state of mind until a couple months ago. “Yes I can use headphones to compensate to a point, but it hurts and makes me very tired after a whole day like this”. Then I had one day where I forgot to bring the headphones to work and had to make do with my old trick of earbuds. WELL… I realized the headphones made a HUGE difference and that they had helped me be less angry at all the noise around me, by covering lots of it and making the rest softer, as well as muffling sentences.
      And weirdly enough, this made me fine with wearing headphones. It’s still tiring sometimes, and I still get angry when the volume of people is loud enough that I can actually understand what’s being said (meaning they’re *really* pushing it)… but overall I’ve accepted this as a survival solution.

      I use noise isolation headphones with background soundscapes from mynoise.net. It has lots of variety so you’re bound to find something your brain can ignore AND that covers the frequencies that bother you. I’m fond of White Rain when I need to cover pretty much everything, and forest/waterflow soundscapes the rest of the time.

      Another thing that helped a tiny bit was that I stopped caring about the noise I make and whether I might bother people when talking to a nearby colleague. I just could not reconcile “being respectful of silence” and suffering from all the noise at the same time. I don’t do it on purpose or louder than I need, but I don’t make an effort the other way either. No one else does anyway. It’s not like an effective petty revenge tool since they clearly don’t care about the ambient volume…

      Hang in there!

  34. Quickbeam*

    You can get a nursing license with a 2 year associates degree. There are a million jobs and all kinds of hours, not that they are all desirable. I went from an MA in Criminal Justice to a BSN (RN), doubled my salary. Nursing also has a lot of part time options.

    1. ArtK*

      From my friends (and wife) in the nursing business, most places won’t hire an AA; I’d do a lot of investigation before going that route. My step son had to move from SoCal to Peoria, IL, to find a hospital that would hire him while he worked on his BSN. My wife is inadvertently retired and unable to find new work because she has an AA. Her many years of OR experience count for nothing.

  35. Pinky Pie*

    I’m gloating here- the job that fired me when my husband was in the hospital couldn’t fill the position a year ago. They rewrote/relisted the position calling for a rare certification that I actually have. Guess who just relisted the position again? They are paying slightly more, but not enough for a master degree with the credential to leave the private sector. Those with the certification in the public sector won’t be able to afford to move for this job. I wish them well.

    I’m making more and have more flexibility since that but I’m currently job hunting. I hate my husband’s insurance and how much they will charge for it and want to be able to have a predictable pay check (mine depends on how much I worked and how quickly the company collects) . The reason when asked is that I’d rather be an employee than a contractor, even if it means more hours worked. Is there a need to word this better?

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I agree that you want to mention stability being an issue, you want a set schedule!

      Also I can totally fist-bump you for the glee you feel over the company that can’t fill the position now that they let you go for such asinine horrid reasons. I took great joy in a similar situation, the place that forced me out because their ownership was bad business people but also just horrible humans in general had to resort to some drastic measures to fill my spot when I left them. The community folks later confirmed that they had the worst reputation ever and were killing the place, it wasn’t ‘my fault’ like they tried hanging on me.

    3. Not A Manager*

      That sort of makes it sound all about you, which of course it is. But if there’s a way to fold in something about the actual company or the type of new work, so that it sounds more like “I want to work for YOU” and not “I want a different pay structure,” that might be a stronger sell.

    4. Autumnheart*

      “I’m looking for a full-time position with benefits, as opposed to a contractor position.” Honestly, I’d just leave it at that. You don’t have to justify why you want benefits and job stability.

      1. CDM*

        This.

        “I currently work as a contractor with an unpredictable workload. I’m looking for a full time position with benefits.” Most people will get the unspoken “and unpredictable pay” implied in that statement.

        When asked why I was looking to leave/had left OldJob, nobody batted an eye when I said that I was working 35 hours a week “part time” with no benefits, and was looking for full time with benefits.

  36. Tigger*

    Guys, it has been a week. Sorry for this vent. On Tuesday we found out that my company bought another company that has been our competitor for years and we will most likely be merging. All week my boss has been in closed-door meetings (really rare for this office) and on the phone discussing the future. All week everyone has been whispering and speculating and no hard timeline has been talked about so rumors are running rampant. I have been here for a year and had a great review, but I have no job security apparently. I talked to my boss about it and he has no idea what is going on (no one does) but he told me he is going to try his hardest to keep our division together since we are the most profitable. I am just so scared that since I am the last one in I will be the first one out.
    Has anyone been in this spot before? How did you keep yourself sane?

    1. Tigger*

      Andddd he is in another closed door meeting and the rumors are starting up again. I get that some stuff should be private but the rumors are making everything so much worse.

    2. Human Sloth*

      Bless your heart. I am going through something very similar. Yes, this is mind blowing. I have a great group of friends that I lean on since I am allergic to alcohol and pot is not legal yet. I kid, but, kind of not kidding. Start beefing up your resume. Quietly spread the word to you network and start looking. Do things that make you happy and less anxious. If you have a good/trusting relationship with your boss have a heart to heart to find out as much as you can. Good luck!

      1. Tigger*

        Ha. We are headquartered in a place where pot is legal and there is a line in the handbook that says “please don’t partake on the work grounds. Having non-prescribed cannabis on the grounds is subject to termination” even though it is not legal in this state.

        Honestly if Management was like” here is the rough plan, changes might happen but not before this happens” I would be fine. This sucks. I hope you come through your situation ok

        1. The Ginger Ginger*

          It’s new enough that they may not HAVE a rough plan yet. I know it sucks, but sometimes these things happen fast enough that for a little while at least, no one seems to know what the heck is going on. It’s kind of the nature of the beast, in my experience. The best you can do is limit the amount of brain space you give this stuff, especially at work. And while participating in the whisper gossip may feel good emotionally, it’s actually really unproductive and will gouge any anxiety you’re feeling through the roof. 100% do not recommend.

          1. Tigger*

            Totally agree. I am trying to get my coworkers to stop doing it around me it is just hard when they tell me “You are the first one out”. Management has not said anything about layoffs on this side , and the CEO pulled me aside after the announcement to tell me he thinks I would fit in well many departments on the new side, but I hate the way people are acting.

    3. The Ginger Ginger*

      I’ve been through a couple mergers, and yeah, they are very stressful. And yeah, sometimes your boss can’t share specifics or doesn’t even know them yet. The best thing you can do is continue to do your work to the same standard that’s always been expected, don’t engage in gossip, and start saving money. You can start putting feelers out if you don’t mind job hunting though you don’t necessarily have to, but you do want to add as much as possible to your emergency $$$ cushion in case the worst happens. I’m in a work situation right now that is very unstable and the fact that I continue to squirrel a bit of money into my emergency cushion is helping keep me sane at the moment because I just keep watching that emergency fund creep up by drips and drabs, expanding my safety net every paycheck. If there’s subscriptions you can cut back and cancel now to up your contribution to your savings, think about doing it until things settle down.

      The other thing I do, and this is more an anxiety coping strategy than specific to your situation (but it WORKS) – imagine your worst case scenario is happening, then instead of just sitting there and dreading it, actually PLAN for it. Even if you don’t need it, you’ll know exactly what to do JUST IN CASE. So instead of scrambling around and panicking if you’re laid off, you can calmly and immediately go straight to implementing “contingency plan A526”. In my case, if I come to work tomorrow to lights out and locked doors – I’m going home and taking a nap, then calling my family to get a couple people to come help me out with packing up everything, notifying my landlord to sublease my apartment, and moving in with my brother (he’s aware of the plan). I know which subscriptions I’m cancelling, I know what remaining bills must be paid in what order and which days they get paid on. I know where to go to research ACA coverage if cobra is too expensive. I know where to apply for unemployment. I know how many months I can afford to do all this at my current savings amount. I know I’m leasing a car (and how much I’m willing to pay to do it) so I don’t have to take out a big loan when I lose access to the awesome public transit I currently have. I know who I’ll ask to be my references. I have a plan to volunteer at specific animal shelters in my brother’s area, and I’m in the process of teaching myself html, css, and javascript so I can a) have something productive to do, and b) maybe broker a career change or at least volunteer in different and fun ways. I know exactly what to do and how to do it in the event that I have to pull the eject button on my current situation if my job dissolves. And the faster I execute the plan, the less money I will spend dithering around in a very expensive city trying to figure out what to do like I would have to without the escape plan already in place. And I have to say, once I figured this all out and took the notes I needed to take? I don’t think about this any more. When I get a little worried about my job, I remind myself that there is a plan in place if the worst happens – it makes me feel SO MUCH BETTER. I’m not nearly as stressed out as I was before. I may never need it, but I’ll know what to do if it happens.

      I will say this about mergers – in my experience, 1) layoffs AREN’T always necessary, or are not always necessary to the extent you are worrying. The work the other company was doing on their own still needs to be done, even though they’re part of your company now. People who know how to do that work a required. Same goes for the work your company is currently doing. 2) The company doing the buying lays off fewer of it’s own employees in a situation where layoffs are necessary. And 3) typically, if layoffs happen in this situation, severance will be a thing that happens.

      1. Tigger*

        This is a great way to think about this. I am going to start doing this asap.

        1. The Ginger Ginger*

          The other things to ask yourself is, how long are you good with this uncertainty?

          My emergency plan has an expiration date, which is me feeling skilled enough at the web dev/front end dev stuff I’m learning that I can shop around for a job in that vein (with a marketable portfolio to back up that search), and move on from my current role on purpose. If I was in limbo with current job on one side and emergency plan on the other with no clear plan between the two, I’d be a lot more worried. But that’s because I don’t want to stay in the role I’m in right now, so I don’t want to be job hunting on the sole basis of my current resume. If you like what you do, and can leverage your current resume into a similar position elsewhere that you would also enjoy, you can probably feel perfectly okay riding out your current situation with an emergency plan as back up.

          Just check in with yourself periodically to see if you really ARE okay. If you get to the point where the uncertainty is more than you’re willing to handle, fire up that job search.

    4. AliceBD*

      Hi! Last one in is not necessarily first one out! I was laid off in February after a “merger” (really the other company acquiring my company). I was new, and another person who got laid off was new, but the other two had both been there over a decade. Other people hired at the same time I was stayed. It was really to do with job function over time in.

      1. The Ginger Ginger*

        And also, if it comes down to a money thing, sometimes the FIRST one in is the first one out because their salary is the highest. I’ve made it through rounds of layoffs recently because, as the newbie, I was pulling the smaller paycheck.

        Point being, you don’t know (and can’t know) what factors are in play if layoffs are going to be a thing. You don’t even know yet IF layoffs are going to be a thing. So hang in there!

    5. dealing with dragons*

      my company also went through this – it was framed as a merger, but the other company was in a larger target market sphere and made about 3x as much as we did. both global but our target audience was low to mid-level and they hit mid to high-level.

      in terms of layoffs, really it depends on what you do. the first round is going to be redundancy – you don’t need two hr departments and you don’t need two CTOs, etc. In our case the company that bought us is in SF and we are not, so we kept some local people. the fact that your company bought the other company is probably good, since obviously you’re not going to spend a bunch of money and then let all the people who got you to that point go. second round will probably be re-org redundancy – when you merge finance you don’t really need two people/teams doing invoicing, etc.

      my company was publicly traded, so we had a lot of SEC things to get through. The merger was announced in May of that year but didn’t become official until December, so you should have time. Right now they still have to talk about it – there’s a huge difference between going to buy someone and then actually looking at their books and processes.

      I will add through all of this I did not get laid off and my department makes negative money in terms of our salaries. Most of our layoffs were either trimming the fat (it’s a good time to get rid of low performers and you don’t have to go through the trouble of a PIP) or getting rid of people who weren’t working out with the new processes.

      Depending on how large your company/department is, odds are a lot of people are polishing resumes off. You can also try to keep an eye out for where everyone ends up – in my case when I hear someone is leaving for a new job (even now, three years after the merger), I go “oh, are they going to Company A?” since so many people have ended up there. I think since your company is buying the new company you should be more secure? Our company was the one bought so a lot of it turned into political “our way or the highway” type things afterwards.

  37. mackie*

    What would you do if the job you took was significantly different than the job you ended up with?
    I negotiated my salary based on a few key things:
    Job was not supposed to involve any travel – it says this in my job description in my offer.
    Was not supposed to involve customer upsells or renewals because sales is compensated on this.
    Job was not supposed to involve any system configurations or account build-outs (I’m a client success manager in the tech industry). I’m supposed to be focussing on relationship management and customer strategy.
    Since starting, I’ve been required to learn and write PHP code and SQL. I’ve had to do all system build and configuration for customers. I’m traveling 1 – 2 weeks a month.
    I’m creating salesforce opportunities for upsells and managing invoices for renewals – and not getting the commission.

    I’ll have been here 6 months this month. I have a brand new manager. Can I ask for more money? I like what I’m doing but would never have agreed to do this for the salary I negotiated as it is significantly more stressful and demanding work.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      What would you do if the job you took was significantly different than the job you ended up with?

      That happened to me once. I left as soon as I could.

    2. pharmacat*

      Ask to see the JDs and salary ranges for the actual work you are doing. Sounds like your job should be reclassified, and of course the salary reevaluated.

  38. Phoenix Programmer*

    Is this salvageable or is my office full of bees?

    I’ve been at my job for 4 years and am a high performer, measured at the top 15% of employees each year. A major component of my performance is customer service, which means my coworkers since they are my customers.

    The thing is my coworkers complain about me all the time! 9 times out of 10 it’s either a flat out lie or something I can’t do anything about. This would not bother me except my boss passes all this feedback to me and even takes away privelages based on it!

    Some examples – while working from home a staffer complained that I did not answer the phone. Turns out that person did not even call me and I was able to demonstrate that. Well my wfh privelages were revoked anyway because “staff get upset when they can’t find you”. Never mind the fact that there is literally a sign at my desk with my contact info and meeting invites to leadership.

    Another example is I was spoken to about not helping a staff member… while I was literally on the phone in another meeting. I guess turning around politely to say I am in a meeting catch me in an hour was not enough? When I brought this up, and reiterated that it’s not even a task I am supposed to cover but I do it anyway to help staff, the line “other duties as a signed” came out. Other duties as assigned what? Like is an other duty that I bud on the spot to handle two tasks at once or? Plus I do help with the tasks even though they are not my job – so why even feel the need to say “other duties as a signed”?

    These are just a few examples but there are dozens more. Lies and yeah that’s true, but did they mention I was in a meeting and politely told them I would be available at 2pm? No they didn’t? Well that’s what happened and it really changes the narrative.

    My boss was supposed to be putting these minor personality based complaints back on the complainer, but isn’t for some reason.

    So is this salvagble or time to leave? I’m sick of the complaints being directed at me when I do fantastic work and go above and beyond.

    1. PX*

      SO. MANY. BEES.

      For me at least, your boss is not great. You say you’re a high performer, do you get rewarded appropriately? If your priveleges can be revoked so quickly, do you get them back as quickly? Do you get raises out the wazoo? A fantastic salary? Other perks that make this particular job particularly great for you?

      For me, the fact that your manager doesnt have your back is a massive red flag and definitely job searching time! You can try and have a conversation with them if you want, but I’d be mentally checked out already tbh.

      1. Phoenix Programmer*

        I am paid very well, but yeah one of the things that was keeping me here was the flexibility and wfh privelages. That and education, which is also revoked for the next year due to budget constraints.

      2. WalkedInYourShoes*

        I am encountering that right now. It’s time to look and look for a job whenever you have time. Spend your energy on that, because they are not worth your time. If they are doing this, that means they operate in a place of non-trust. You don’t want to work in that type of environment. Trust me, get out before it destroys your self-esteem.

    2. LCL*

      It doesn’t sound salvageable to me. People that think every complaint about another person must be acted upon after being listened to, and the person complained about must face some punishment, are horrible people. For your own peace of mind, you could meet with the boss and ask them why they believe every complaint must be acted on. But you probably won’t get a good answer. People like your boss enjoy the punishment aspect of the job.

      There was a question that came up in AAM earlier this week. A boss let some bad behavior pass because he considered it interpersonal sniping. All sorts of ideas were raised by the commenters, many accusing him of sexism and writing things off because the other parties were women, etc. I stayed out of it because I was really busy that day. But, for those who wonder why some bosses will try to downplay and ignore interpersonal stuff. Phoenix Programmer’s letter provides one of the answers. Decent bosses and human beings don’t want to manage like Phoenix Programmer’s boss.

      1. Bostonian*

        Nah, huge difference between “so and so didn’t pick up the phone” and “Jane called me a slut”

      2. Observer*

        No, PP doesn’t do anything of the sort. For one thing, people are saying untrue or unreasonable things about her. That was not the case with the other post.

        Also, Bostonian is right – some things need to be addressed, and some things don’t.

    4. Mr. Tyzik*

      I don’t know how long this has been going on but it’s a crappy way to treat you.

      If I were you, I don’t see how I could put up with it and would be looking. I’ve done this successfully with a couple of micromanaging bosses.

    5. A Simple Narwhal*

      BEEEEEEEEES

      I’d get out, I can only see this escalating and getting worse and worse.

    6. Ali G*

      I’d be looking. If you boss is treating these “complaints” like they matter so much, he’s not on your side. Sorry, I think it’s just going to get worse.

    7. Turtlewings*

      Nah man, get the heck out. People telling lies that get you into trouble even when you can prove you did nothing wrong? There’s no excuse and no reason to tolerate that. Get out.

      1. Phoenix Programmer*

        Yeah I’ve been called defensive more than a few times too. The crazy thing is my performance reviews are glowing! Everything that is official on paper is fantastic but the verbal behind the scenes discussions are very much like the above. They go away for a while then come careening back.

        2. LCL*

          Being called defensive when you push back against mistreatment is bullying 101. I’m sorry you are having to work under these conditions. I can only repeat, your boss is a horrible person.

        3. Windchime*

          I was in a similar situation. My reviews were also glowing (for years) until all the sudden they weren’t. This is the kind of crazy-making that doesn’t usually get better. I would probably start looking if I were you. I stayed to long and it took me a long time to recover from being in a toxic situation for too long.

          1. Anonybus*

            Yes, leave ASAP. I’m in a variation of that situation right now, and I get a bit panicky when I realize how much damage has already been done, and how much time and energy it will take to find something else before I can safely leave.

        4. Lemonwhirl*

          Are you in a “stacked rankings” workplace such that you and your coworkers are all rated against each other? That’s the only thing I can think of to explain why all the complaints. Also, if you are, that’s structural bees and should be fled as fast as possible. Especially if the few things that kept you in the job are now being taken away.

      2. MtnLaurel*

        They are treating you poorly and you deserve better. Get out and let those people stay there are attack each other…they deserve each other.

    9. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Steadily complaining over these kinds of this is NOT NORMAL and not acceptable behavior. They do it because they get pleasure out of “punishing” you for not being at their feet doing their tasks at a moments notice. That’s absurd on all levels.

      You’re a valuable person, with valuable skills that will be appreciated in a functional healthy workplace. It’s time to pack your stuff and let them deal with the bed they made for themselves. This is the kind of position that they’ll have a ton of turnover in, you’ve done them a great service at your own disadvantage by taking this ridiculous abuse.

    10. Drago Cucina*

      Killer Beezzzzs! Get out, because your boss isn’t backing you and the other staff will only get worse.

    11. The Ginger Ginger*

      I think you’re next step may be to go back to your boss and ask specifically (in a calm, collaborative tone) in X kind of situation (ex: I’m in a meeting on the phone with someone else when asked for assistance), what do they expect you to differently than what you did? Is their answer/expectation reasonable? Can they give you one? Or does it sound like they’re passing along all this feedback because it’s easier than pushing back on the person giving it in the moment. That’s going to go pretty far in telling you if anything about this is salvageable.

      Maybe you’ll find they wanted you to get back to the person right after the meeting or something else that’s achievable. Maybe they won’t be able to tell you what you should have done differently. Either way, you’ll learn a lot.

      1. Hamburke*

        being petty, you should try to ask this question while your boss is on the phone or in a meeting…

    12. Not So NewReader*

      Sorry, you’re hosed here.

      I had a boss like this, she either made up the lies herself or she borrowed other people’s lies. It was so rotten a situation, that proof of my work was in the computer and she would not look at the computer to see the proof. “No, I do not have to look at the computer. I know you are lying and you did not do this work.”

      With that, I quit. That is probably what she wanted. But she acted surprised and seemed credible about her surprise. Almost.

      Let me add one more piece here. When a boss is toxic you can expect subordinates to act this way. They may be pointing at you to keep her off of them. This happens in families also, where family members are constantly fighting among themselves because of a toxic parent or two.

      Get out while you still kind of remember what normal looks like, as Alison says. I say you can do better than work for these thankless people.

    13. Anonybus*

      It sounds like they’re actively looking for things to complain about, and your manager is either fine with that or too conflict-avoidant to back you up.

      Not good at all. I think you might be getting mobbed; usually, that’s not a salvageable situation.

    14. Been there*

      Just had a situation like this. I worked from home while my mother was sick and I had a coworker who would send things during off hours, while I was working with IT, and when he knew I was in a (previously arranged) pickup line for my sister at school. His bullying escalated into a verbal attack, which I reported to my manager, who didn’t believe me and took me off all assignments and refused to address his bullying. This emboldened him to verbally harass me whenever he thought no one was around. I found something better and handed in my resignation professionally and was able to leave with dignity. Get out, quickly. They are trying to push you out.

    15. DustyJ*

      Bees!
      You are getting mobbed by your boss, who is directing the swarm of stinging coworkers.

  39. Western Rover*

    My daughter turned in her resume at a job fair and got an interview with the teapot department, and then heard nothing for several weeks. Last week the milk jug department scheduled an interview with her, and a day later the teapot department said they were interested in sending her an offer letter, apologizing for the delay, and asking if she was still interested. She told them yes and they said they would try to push the process along.
    She plans to mention at the beginning of her interview with the milk jug department that the teapot department wants to make her an offer. Should she reach out and tell them before then? Should she tell the teapot department now that she has an interview with the milk jug department?
    She’s probably handling this correctly if these were two different companies, but should she handle it differently when it’s the same company (in the same building)? She doesn’t know yet whether she would rather work in teapots or milk jugs, but as of now only teapots is a sure thing.

    1. Not A Manager*

      Teapots is not a sure thing until she’s gotten her offer and accepted it.

    2. Anna Canuck*

      If there is no actual offer in hand yet, I’d go to the second interview and get a feel for it. Mention the probable offer with the other department, if they’re not aware. I wouldn’t bother with informing teapots about milk jugs, unless she ends up going with the second (possible) offer. I interviewed with 2 departments here, got two offers, and took the one I thought fit me better. No hard feelings – I’m sure I could transfer if I ever got a strong desire to do so.

    3. Mouse Princess*

      Is there an HR department? It would be appropriate for them to let both departments know ahead of time.

    4. Western Rover*

      @Not A Manager, @Anna Canuck: Thanks for the advice; she was very happy to read it.
      @Mouse Princess: appropriate for who to let them both know, the HR department or my daughter?

      1. Mouse Princess*

        Sorry! I meant it would be appropriate for the HR dept. to let their hiring managers know that they are both looking at the same candidate

    5. The Ginger Ginger*

      I wouldn’t bring it up as an offer, because it isn’t yet. I would say that I was also in the running for a position in the teapot department, but was interested in learning more about the milk jug role and was eager to talk to them.

  40. embarrassed strawberry without seeds*

    Is this normal or am I wrong? Someone in a junior position is hovering (literally and figuratively) over someone in a senior position to do something.

    In this case, it’s a call center. The rep’s job is to take the call and pass along the message. They pass along the message, but then they come up to them and will stand by them until “did you call them? Let me stand over you right now while you call them/do task for them.” They do not face disciplinary action if task is not done. They are not waiting on anyone to complete a task.

    To me it seems like they are trying to act like that person’s manager but maybe my thinking is wrong. I have a very “don’t overstep boundaries unless invited” mentality and maybe I am being too combative in thinking this.

    1. Four lights*

      Maybe they don’t realize that it’s not their issue to deal with anymore. In some jobs the junior person is still in charge of ensuring the work is done. If you’re not one of the people you should probably do nothing.

      1. Dust Bunny*

        This. I’ve had jobs where it’s not clear if the task has been handed off for good or if it’s temporary but I’ll still be responsible for finishing up, and I’ll be in trouble for “skipping out”.

    2. fposte*

      It’s not advisable, but unless you’re one of the people in this situation I’d say it’s not your circus, not your monkeys. If you’re the person being stood over, it’s fine to say “Jane, please don’t stand over me. Once you had the message over to me your responsibility is done, and I’ll manage the task in my own time.”

      1. embarrassed strawberry without seeds*

        I am the person being hovered over. I like that script. Thank u.

    3. Annie Moose*

      Eh, seems a bit rude/over-the-top, but maybe the junior person is just anxious about making sure things get done and feels more ownership over the calls than you’d expect them to have. At any rate, if it’s bothering the senior person, they should have a talk with the junior person about who has ownership over what part of the process and that it’s unnecessary (and, if contextually appropriate, distracting and unuseful) to follow up on every call.

      Is the junior person new? They may simply not have quite figured out how things work in your call center yet.

    4. L. S. Cooper*

      I’ve been in a similar situation before, and got very harshly scolded for not leaving– but I was waiting for confirmation that the other department could take it from there, and I wasn’t needed anymore. (It was also in a retail store, not a call center, so I was waiting for a point in the conversation where I could tell the customer that I was leaving but would help them again if they needed me.)
      If the junior isn’t being officially told that they’re not needed anymore after delivering a message, maybe that’d help?

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s obnoxious behavior and usually a learned one because previous jobs have required you own that project until it’s done in the end. So if the person didn’t get the message and didn’t get the response out, then it’s on the junior level employee and deemed a failure.

      Since your company doens’t do that, I think it needs to be addressed by management if it’s possible.

      It’s up there with people who email you and then swoop in on your office with “Did you get that email? You gonna answer that email??? Let me stand here awkwardly and wait for your response.”

      If you’re the one they’re doing it to, I would simply say “I see it here. I’ll get to it shortly, I will IM you when it’s done if you’d like.” or simply “Okay I see it, I’ll get to it later.” and then just stare at them until they go away.

      1. embarrassed strawberry without seeds*

        Dude that’s what these two do. Send a chat, and WALK OVER. They’re not responsible for the task or end, only passing along the message.

        Can’t tell their manager b/c they’ll say I’m shitting on them. So I silently stew and vent.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Argh that’s frustrating AF, I’m sorry! As if call center work isn’t hard enough, I’m sorry you are in that position. Just be chilly towards the person and don’t feel bad about it, it’s not your fault they’re so obtuse.

        2. Workerbee*

          Sounds like there’s more to these two than just this one annoyance, especially if any legitimate complaint leads to them saying you’re shitting on them.

          My perhaps-unprofessional take is that they’re going to say you’re shitting on them no matter how reasonable you are. So you might as well try to get your own space and time back from these hoverers.

      3. embarrassed strawberry without seeds*

        It’s like… “Dude I don’t report to you, I don’t owe you any explanation or update.”

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Grr. I’d be tempted to say, “I will not even start this task until you go back to your desk and sit down.”

          But if I was feeling pretty froggy, I might force the point. “Is there a reason why you are standing here?” Just so I could watch them struggle with their answer. “You know that no one else in this place does this, right? You know there is a reason why people don’t do this, right?”

  41. ThatGirl*

    I’m off today (just taking some pto) but next week my manager owes me a conversation. I have a strong suspicion the changes I want to make to my job are not going to pan out, and I have to decide whether to apply to a different internal position.

    (To sum up, I’m doing much more CSR work than I was hired for, or that my skills reflect, and my manager and her manager agree it’s not great, but they’re having a hard time getting the higher ups on board.)

  42. Janet*

    Is is unprofessional/awkward/kind of weird to ask someone to use their washroom before leaving a meeting at their office? I often don’t ask, then leave and go find a public washroom at a nearby mall or coffee shop before going back to my office. But it would definitely save time and hassle to just use theirs. I am kind of shy about drawing attention to it when shaking hands and walking out, but then I usually really wish I had after downing cups of coffee or glasses of water during a meeting. If it makes any difference, I’m talking about meetings at professional, downtown offices, not in remote locations. What do people think?

    2. dawnsname*

      Not at all. After meetings with outside people, we direct them to the washrooms (as they aren’t easy to find).

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I understand why this feels weird to you, I have had the same issue in the past due to my anxiety about being “rude” to people even though it’s seriously normal behavior.

      We have people use our restrooms before or after meetings all the time and it’s never registered with me as awkward or weird to ask. It’s a normal bodily function and the facilities are for guests and staff.

      It’s more weird to go into gas stations that you aren’t even purchasing something from and using their public washrooms in my opinion. I hated road tripping as a kid with my family and having to do that kind of thing. However if I’m a customer, then I feel completely fine by it.

      You’re an invited guest, you aren’t just dropping in off the street asking them if you can use their restroom [even then, I’m fine with it when others do it, I just don’t do it myself because of my own feelings as stated above].

    5. Frankie*

      You can just say, while shaking hands, “Can you point me to the restroom?” Super normal and nobody will think twice about it. Totally not something to worry about.

      1. Autumnheart*

        Or “Where’s the nearest restroom located?” if you want to sound slightly more like “Can you give me directions?” as opposed to “May I please use your bathroom?”

    6. Lilysparrow*

      I usually say, after the thank-yous and handshakes, “Where can I wash my hands?” Or “Is the ladies room on the way out?”

      The restroom is there to be used. You just need to he clear that the meeting is definitely over and you’re not expecting them to hang around and see you off afterwards.

    7. Budgie Buddy*

      It is not weird. They invited you out and if they are not jerks they will want you to freely use their available facilities. Do not restrict yourself to seeking out possibly icky public restrooms.

    8. Workerbee*

      When I have clients come in to the office, I always say, “Do you need anything–water, coffee, facilities?”

      But I don’t actually recall being as proactive AFTER a meeting. This is an excellent reminder.

  43. Toxic waste*

    In Toxic workplace, new evil boss yelled at me for taking my laptop and working in another room by my coworker. I was working on my laptop, so what gives? Who cares where I sit?

    2. Bananatiel*

      That won’t get better! Just in case you need to hear that. My job can be done anywhere my computer is but oldboss COULD NOT handle it if she didn’t know where I was at every minute of the workday. Not even after five years of trying to demonstrate that I was trustworthy and consistent.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      At least they let you know really early on they were evil and ridiculous! Since you said they’re your new boss, I’m assuming it’s pretty recent.

      The whole point of a laptop is mobility. I mean if you were BOTHERING someone by being in the office on their couch spread out and they didn’t invite you, sure that’s something to say “yo, you have a workspace, stop laying on your coworkers floor with your laptop, duncur that you’re working or not!”

    4. Jules the First*

      Is it possible that this is the first time your boss has managed someone whose work was not location specific?

      Early in my career, I spent a lot of time explaining to bosses that not being at my desk didn’t mean I wasn’t working because my work involved working with others and/or thinking. It was the kind of job where you’d think that would be obvious, but to my newbie managers, it was not.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      “Because I KNOW the two of you are friends and you just want to hang out together instead of WORKING! You should be WORKING!”

      But-but-but I AM working!

      “No. You are hanging out with your friend. You need to focus on your work.”
      Translated: “I am in control here. I want to show you just how much I am in control here. You WILL do as you are told because *I* am in control.”

  44. Super Anon*

    I have written before about working with my organization to address (gender) pay equity. In my small department, it really came down to one man who was clearly (and massively) overpaid relative to his job description, background, and the women who held equivalent or higher-level roles.

    Earlier this week, my boss’ boss pulled me aside and said “I know we’ve been talking about pay equity, and I want you to know that it’s taken care of. I can’t say any more, but it’s no longer a problem.”

    I… have no idea what he means. I don’t believe all the relevant women suddenly got raises (I am arguably one of the women who would be affected, and while I did negotiate a promotion recently it was around 3%, not the — literally — 40% it would take to bring me in line with this man’s salary). So… what happened?

    The man’s salary is not my business. I get that. Except pay equity IS my business, and I’ve been vocal about it, and his salary is a key element of the problem. It feels strange to know that something is happening/has happened, but not to know what or, frankly, to trust whether the problem has really been resolved.

    I don’t think I really have a question. I’m not just figuring out what my next moves should be.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Perhaps you can follow up to clarify “I know you don’t feel you can give me details, but when you say it’s taken care of, I hope you mean across the board and not just between me and this one other employee”?

    2. irene adler*

      Didn’t even give you a time frame within which the ‘problem’ will be resolved?

      I’m wary about any situation where the big boss pulls individuals aside to tell them such info. Shouldn’t this kind of information be shared with the whole dept? Or all the women in the dept? Or are they only giving out modest raises to those who have spoken up?

      The president of my company does this. His thing is to tell me how terrifically hard it was for him to come up with the $2K/ year pay increase I’ll soon receive. I’m not to tell anyone about it, of course, because not everyone is going to receive an increase. And oh my, it was so tough trying to find this money. Real tough. The sacrifices made for this salary increase… blah, blah, blah…

      I should point out that it’s been 2 years since the last pay raise.

      I don’t see why you and the other women in the office can’t compare notes. Cuz to me, it sounds like someone is hoping you won’t.

      1. Super Anon*

        I didn’t communicate this clearly in my first message: I’m quite sure that the women’s salaries have not increased. Which leaves me assuming that my male colleague’s salary has been cut, I guess — and that’s where the weird knowing-but-not-knowing thing comes in.

        1. irene adler*

          I don’t know the guy, but don’t you think male colleague would be “mad as hell” to have his salary cut? And would not be able to mask his emotion over this? Have you seen anything like this?

          Cuz, I wouldn’t stand for a big salary cut out of the blue. Not without some expression of frustration or anger.

          1. WellRed*

            I agree. If his salary was cut, you’ll learn about it sooner than later, like when he quits.

            1. Blue Eagle*

              Maybe he’s being fired or laid off and that is why it will no longer be an issue because he won’t be there. At least that seems more likely to me than him receiving a pay cut.

        2. Gumby*

          I assume that having your salary cut comes with some degree of shame (merited or not). But in any case – it would be information that the cut-salary employee would have to share himself not something his boss should be going around his back sharing. While I agree pay transparency is maybe ideal, it shouldn’t be forced on one person if that is not already the norm in the office. Particularly when it could be interpreted as something punitive (the pay cut – like it could imply sub-standard work).

    3. Darren*

      So basically there are 4 scenarios:

      1. The relevant women’s pay have been increased equivalent to what would be necessary. This is unlikely as you are arguably one of those that would be impacted, but you can check this one out by talking with the other impacted women and find out if any of them received larger raises (maybe they did get them but they didn’t feel you were equivalently impacted). Either you confirm this option (and them maybe have to argue a bit more about your own pay) or you can eliminate it. They can’t stop you from discussing this so I’d definitely start here.

      2. They cut the guys pay by 40%. It’s going to take some time to chat to the other women and if this happened I’m sure you’d find out in around 2 weeks when he either stops showing up to work or has a noticeable downturn in his attitude toward work (i.e. he is going to feel quite hard done by and is going to be actively job searching). Even the most professional person would be hard-pressed not to have a morale impact from such a change.

      3. They’ve terminated him for some reason, again you’ll find out in about 2 weeks when he is no longer here.

      4. A situation you haven’t considered but I suspect is the one that would concern you most which is promoting/transferring him. If he is promoted to a higher-level role they would be able to justify his higher salary (and reduce the amount of other salaries he has to bump), if he is transferred into a non-comparable role, or promoted into one they could keep paying him the same without changing anyones salary. This would no doubt be the most frustrating outcome but again is one that shouldn’t take very long to notice (he would likely be happy about his promotion, have a new title, or actively be working on very different things).

      In the end you should be able to work out what’s going on in the next 2 weeks one way or another. If you can’t then you’d definitely want to have another talk because something should have changed in that timeline regardless of the situation. Definitely chat with the other impacted women and find out what has happened with their pay though.

      1. DreamingInPurple*

        Yeah… somehow Option 4 seems the most likely to me given the way the boss talked about it… :/

  45. Master Bean Counter*

    Time for a Fri-yay moment.

    I took a long weekend last week. My boss calls on my first day off. Sportsball guy gave his notice. I keep a poker voice going while having the conversation with the boss. I hung up and did a happy dance in the seat of my husband’s truck, as we were on a trip through no-where Nevada.

    When I got back to work on Tuesday I found out I’m getting Sportsball guy’s position. A nice raise and promotion for me! I’m also getting to move from the office by the bathroom and get an office with a real window.

    For the first time in a long time I think I’m actually happy with my work.

    1. sammy_two*

      That’s awesome! Just your office location change alone sounds amazing. Congratulations!

      1. Master Bean Counter*

        Thank you! The move is literally 10 feet down the hall, but will be a world of difference.

    3. WalkedInYourShoes*

      Congrats! I wish that was happening to me. I learned that the HR Consultant who I detest working with is being extended as the VP of People for my company. UGH! He’s horrible. He has lied and manipulated conversations with me to lead me to believe that my performance is horrible and it’s the opposite. On top of that, he’s micromanaging. I started looking awhile back when he started this path. I am hoping that he doesn’t accept or someone tells our BIG Boss about how he operates. I was going to go to the BIG Boss, but now he has extended the offer.

  46. Peaches*

    Well, my new coworker (the one I wrote the long email to last with feedback on how she can improve at her job – you can see that in last week’s open thread) seems to still be having a difficult time still, despite seeming receptive to my feedback.

    I had mentioned last week that she had royally screwed up a big project for one of our account managers (lost a ton of data that she and the account manager had spent a week collecting at customer sites), which happened solely because she didn’t follow directions she was given and tried to do things her own way. The project should have been done at least a week ago and distributed to our customer, but because of her error, she is basically at square one. So, yesterday, she was out of the office all day supposedly going back to the customer sites to regather all the data (the account manager was not able to go with her this time). Then today, she was supposed to return to the office with the data and get together a presentation binder with the data.

    Well…she didn’t show up this morning (we have pretty set schedules of 7:30-4:30). In her absence, the account manager she had been working with had me look at the progress she’d made on the data collection yesterday (our website allows us to see live data of what is being collected on a mobile device). She…had not done ANYTHING yesterday. No data had been collected on the project in nearly two weeks (so, not sure where she was yesterday!) At that point (around 8:30 this morning), the account manager called her and asked for an update, suspecting she had up and quit and told no one. Surprisingly, she answered the phone, but was (according to the account manager), clearly still in bed. She told him she “was still working on collecting data” and “would appreciate if [account manager] would be more patient with her.” *face palm*. She’s already been given way more time than what should have been needed for this project because she didn’t follow directions.

    I was hopeful after I gave her some honest feedback that she would show some improvement, but her lack of motivation on this project has me thinking she has her foot halfway out the door…

    1. Peaches*

      On a brighter note, my husband and I are leaving on vacation tonight to do some hiking in Colorado, so I’m trying to focus on that. :)

        1. Peaches*

          It was just a short, 3 day weekend trip, so we got to enjoy the beautiful sunny, 70 degree weather. :)

    2. fposte*

      Whoa, yeah, she’d be on the outbound chute for me. Well, you tried your best to help.

    3. Myrin*

      Ooof! I was impressed with how she conducted herself in your last comment but I honestly didn’t quite trust it – seems like that feeling was actually right!

      I’m sorry you’re dealing with this (although yay for vacation!) and I always wonder how people like this manage. There was a guy like that at my part-time job in December (yeah, he was only there for a month) who just… always ignored instructions and feedback. He didn’t react negatively to it – like arguing or defending himself – but he just… didn’t do the thing.

      I’m wondering if there’s just a massive disinterest, a dislike for work and/or people, or something deeper, because this type of behaviour generally feels really alien to what we’re used to.

      1. Peaches*

        Thank you for your sympathies! Definitely looking forward to vacation though.

        I am super curious too how people like her manage…I just can’t get a feel for what she needs to be successful in a job (if anything at all!) I’ve tried to be encouraging and helpful, but it seems to have fallen on deaf ears.

        I tend to think it’s something deeper…not to get all detective-y and personal, but I do wonder what her life was like up to this point that made her the way she is.

      1. Peaches*

        This is my fear. I know it’d probably be for the best in the long run, but (being the former person in her position), I would hate to have to retrain another employee and fill in until we find another hire!

        1. valentine*

          Why quit when she just got paid for two extra days?

          How would you feel about stepping back and just redirecting her to her supervisor? No reason to let her waste your time.

    5. CatCat*

      Oh dear. It seemed like she didn’t want this job to then seeming like she did and now we’re back to really, really not wanting the job because she’s literally not doing it.

    6. Avel*

      My guess is she’s intentionally trying to get fired instead of quitting so she can collect unemployment.

  47. drives me nuts*

    Can I use sick time if my goat is sick? I don’t use sick time very much, maybe 1 day a year, due to being a fairly healthy person (thank goodness!!). I do get some vacation days and use all of them for traveling with my family. Outside of work, I have a small farm with goats and chickens. Occasionally, I might need to stay home with a sick goat or a pregnant goat who is in labor. This could happen once or twice a year and I can’t plan for it, so I would be calling out that morning. Would I be a terrible person to use a sick day? This is technically against company policy because the sick policy doesn’t extent to pets or livestock. But it would almost be a “mental health” day for me because there is no way I can focus on work if I think my goat is at home dying.

    1. Peaches*

      I think it’s fine. It doesn’t sound like you abuse your company’s vacation policy, so I think it’s completely fine to call out sick once or twice a year for a mental health day (even if you’re using that day to take care of an ill pet).

    2. Ladysplainer*

      Dude. It’s none of your employers business how you use your paid leave. It’s YOUR benefit.

      1. Venus*

        Technically this is not true. Sick leave should not be used for a trip when one is healthy.

        I had an awesome workplace which had family leave, and an awesome boss who told me that pets are family (which was kinda against the rules, because it listed valid family members). I had to be careful not to abuse the system, so I always did regular vet visits on evenings or weekends, but there were a couple emergencies where I used family leave and it was greatly appreciated.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      Ethically? Sure. But whether you can get away with it really depends on your company culture and/or your boss. I’ve read accounts here on AaM of people having to bring sick notes from doctors (WTF!) to prove they were sick. Fortunately, my boss has said if I even need to stay home to take care of sick family member, I should just call in sick.

    4. Turtlewings*

      I’ve done it for my dog. I think it’s one of those things where the letter of the law could still get you in trouble, but morally you’re fine.

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        Same, I left early for “medical appointments” (for my cat) while she was in decline. It’s a bit off-label but honestly as long as your total sick time usage is within your company’s general standard and you’re not skipping out on important work events, go for it.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I agree, but I am basing it on: you rarely take sick time; you know for a fact that this happens once or twice a year period and everything else is okay at work. If you know for a fact this will bite you hard later if found out then do not do this.

          Just to keep things on the up and up you may want to consider using personal time or emergency vacation time which ever the company allows.

          The advice about contingency plans way upthread is relevant here too. Have a plan for what you will do with a sick animal if you HAVE to go to work on that day.

    5. Lucette Kensack*

      I’m sorry about your goat!

      But I’m afraid that this is a vacation day, not a sick day.

    6. Drago Cucina*

      Once or twice a year. I wouldn’t blink. You’re not abusing the policy and as long as your aware of issues at work (multiple people out that day) that it could impact.

    7. LCL*

      ‘I was up all night with a sick animal and didn’t get any sleep.’ Since you have livestock, you can add ‘I tripped going in the barn, animal banged me against the stall and I’m hurting, I pulled a muscle moving hay/grain/wheelbarrow’ etc.

  48. Frustrated In DC*

    I am frustrated with my job search. I want to do more. I am capable of doing *so much more* than what I am currently doing. How can I gain more experience doing what I want to do (I do a small amount of staff recruiting/office managing already and I wish I had the ability to do more of it here, but we are Very Small).

    I state to recruiters/on my cover letter/on phone interviews/in actual interviews that I am looking to take the next step up, and that I am passionate about these things, so that’s not something I am hiding.

    Where are the employers who see potential in people and think “Hey, she’s got a lot of what we are looking for, clearly she’s passionate and bright and has the basics of what we need here. Back in the day, someone gave me a chance and mentored me, and now I am in a position that I can do that. I am going to pay that forward and give her a shot.”

    *I* have done this many times in my career as I have gained experience, and only once have I regretted it — the others are all thriving and happy. I don’t want to be stuck in this role forever. SIGH.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I’m job-searching, too, so I’m feeling similar frustrations, especially since I’m applying to jobs I know I can do, but I’m not the typical candidate that exactly lines up with the experience they’re looking for.

      Back in the day, someone gave me a chance and mentored me, and now I am in a position that I can do that. I am going to pay that forward and give her a shot.

      It’s because they aren’t looking at you as you. They’re looking at you against a pile of other candidates. If they see 6-7 people who could be good candidates, and 3-4 of those also happen to be “on paper” good matches, too, they’ll tend to go with the “on paper” good folks over the people they’d have to give a chance, too.

      That said, I have, in the past, gotten jobs where they took a chance on me. It can happen. It’s rare, though. People tend to hire conservatively.

    2. SezU*

      You have to make the personal connections and develop your network so that people know you and see that in you. Can you volunteer somewhere that might get you noticed by someone who is in a corporate position (volunteering there too)?

    3. AudreyParker*

      Totally share your frustration (though I am in a different field). If I had 100% experience doing the job, why would I be looking at it? Aren’t we supposed to want to grow?
      At any rate, are you connecting with people in the industry on LinkedIn & Twitter? Early in my search I determined I wanted to understand what was going on on the other side of the table, so started finding internal & contingent recruiters to follow and discovered there is an amazing community of helpers there (particularly in the Twitter chats I’ve gone by) that you should definitely be involved with if you aren’t already.

      1. Frustrated In DC*

        Thank you for the advice!
        I’ll definitely look into the volunteering aspect (the things I want to do though typically are not done in the evenings/on weekends — do you think there would be a company that would be willing to let me volunteer anyway)?

    4. 1234*

      Have you applied at staffing agencies? Have you listed those duties first on your resume?

      You stated that you are passionate about these things but have you told them what led you to determine that you want to focus more on recruiting/staffing?

  49. krysb*

    Had my performance evaluation yesterday. 3s, 4s, and 5s, with 3s meaning I’m performing at the level I need to, 4s being exceptional, and 5s being amazing. I got an entire 2% raise, equaling about $900. It’s good to know that all of the money I make my company, all of the money I’ve saved my company, and all of the new things I’ve brought in and implemented in the past year are worth $900.

    I love my company, but, damn, it’s like they want me to leave.

    1. ghostwriter*

      Yeah, probably time to start looking elsewhere. It’s not uncommon though… my SO saved his department over 100k by writing program code to do a task they were originally paying outside vendors to do. He got a nice plaque and a paid day off.

      1. Bananatiel*

        Yeah, just in case krysb needs another example– I automated like half of another person’s job at oldjob. That person got to keep their job at FT and my work enabled her to go on an extended vacation in the summer with her newfound free time. I got like a 2% raise and an unsustainable workload lol.

    2. Fabulous*

      This was me at the end of last year. My manager was gung ho about me being promoted with a substantial raise of around 20%. Then the end of the year rolled around and everything was frozen due to company restructuring, but she she was so excited that she got me a 5% raise (a $0.92 per hour increase). She seemed confused when I didn’t jump for joy.

    3. Southern Yankee*

      I get it…having small raises that don’t make much difference can be demoralizing and kill your motivation. However, I have to say that equating “all the money I make my company” and “all the money I’ve saved my company” with your salary or raise percentage is likely to drive you insane. Negotiate for a higher raise, sure. Find a job with better salary/raises, sure. Make sure your high performance rating is translating into promotions and other responsibilities which build salary faster than annual COL increases, definitely. But I don’t think it’s realistic to expect a full pay back as you are defining it. Companies have a lot of cost to do business that you are not including in that calculation. If you love your company and it’s a good place to work, don’t be too quick to take offense. 2-3% annual raises are pretty common in my experience, and the only guaranteed way to avoid being at the mercy of the company budget is work for yourself.

      1. krysb*

        Absolutely. I’m not really trying to equate my earnings/savings to MY earnings [I know, strangers on the internet, y’all aren’t in my brain], it’s that I work on a team of 10 – 12, but 90% of billable project work falls into my lap on top of the 75% of the non-project/non-billable work that I end up responsible for, plus the ideas that I bring in that allow others to perform their jobs better. Our raise-to-ratings scale has changed; previously, your rating was your raise, though getting a full-on 4% or 5% raise wasn’t really a thing. My boss actually had to fight for that 2%. Apparently the scale had me below that.

        And I know that a lot of my dissatisfaction is in the fact that I’m the one stuck shouldering the burden of all of these things with little reward. THAT is the problem.

        1. Southern Yankee*

          Great additional info. Yeah, if the rating scale just changed and you seem to have gotten the short end of it, definitely a hard pill to swallow. Do you have enough info about the new scale to know what caused your calculation to change/drop? For example, in my company, how where you are in your particular job grade range is one component and can decrease your % if you are too high or over the top range for that grade even if your performance rating is high. If you can figure out what’s driving the calc, I would address that thing. In my example, I’d be making the case for a job grade increase to reflect how much of the high level work I’m doing which would take the “over range” penalty out of the picture. That approach would probably be your best bet anyway – make sure your boss knows how much of that load you carry and that he shares that with other management. As long as you aren’t complaining but just sending the message that you enjoy your work but have to keep your eye on the long term goals, etc., the message should be fine. Hope that helps.

    4. dealing with dragons*

      well luckily inflation is down? haha

      we were bought and after previously getting 5-6% performance raises plus 5%+ promotion raises, we got, wait for it, 2.7% raises!!! inflation was about 3% that year? and they apparently think that bucket raises are good – so essentially your whole team gets enough for everyone to get an x% raise and you distribute it.

    5. Quiltrrrr*

      I could have written this…in the same boat. It’s incredibly demoralizing.

      1. Windchime*

        Yeah. I got the highest marks possible on my review and was rewarded with a 2% raise last year. Same as the guy who spends most of the day sleeping at his desk. And the guy who talks about bitcoin all day; he also got a 2% raise.

    6. Curmudgeon in California*

      At my job, the “merit increases” match the national inflation rate, barely, but not the local inflation. But they aren’t “cost of living increases”, they are “merit” raises. The subtext here, of course is that you have to perform well to just keep up with national inflation, and it sucks to be you that we all live in a high cost area where our policies mean we’re losing ground. (For reference, one city council member where I live got evicted along with his wife and kid and ended up in a smaller apartment that cost more money.)

      I have a “three strikes” policy with employers – if there are three areas where they consistently do me dirt, it’s time to move on. Strike one is the below market pay that is not keeping pace with local inflation. Strike two is going from real offices to open plan, with a longer commute on top of it. They’re almost at strike three with some political crap that is happening. I love my job, but the BS level is getting to be too high for what I get paid.

  50. Ladysplainer*

    Help ME find a new career path! I’m burning out on being a project manager in the digital and app dev space.
    Specifically, it’s the temp jobs only (sporadic work and constantly job searching) and constant at-work stress (I always seem to get brought in when a project is underscoped or intentionally being set up to fail).

    I’m good at written communication, organizing, research, building synergies between teams. Due to a Brain injury I do math at about a 7th grade level, but I am a management consulting alum.

    I have 2 smaller kids and health issues so I need work life balance.

    2. Fortitude Jones*

      Proposal management. There’s little math involved (at least at my company – they have pricing managers who handle the quotes), but lots of writing, lots of organizing info received from SME’s, and your background would fit perfectly in that space in the tech industry.

  51. Fabulous*

    They’re doing construction in our office and are boarding up the Mother’s Room in the next few days to make it into a mechanics room. While they’re in the process of building a new one down the hall, it’s not even close to being done; they only just have the framing in place. You’d think they’d have a bit more consideration for anyone needing to use the room, and as someone who uses it several times daily at the moment, I’m more than a bit annoyed about the situation.

    I was offered a supply closet in the meantime, but seriously? No thanks. Working from home until further notice… :/

    1. SezU*

      Not helpful, but I was told I could use the ladies’ room (it was a single stall bathroom) when I was nursing. I think they absolutely should have a better plan for you, but I’m glad that there are least facilities for this purpose now.

    2. JustaTech*

      My office is being renovated and they decided that, to save space, the new mother’s room would also be the phlebotomy (blood drawing) room.
      We had that at the old building. It was so gross from the blood that no one would use it and had to pump in shared offices. I objected when it first came up, but no.

      1. only acting normal*

        Gross from blood? How were they drawing it? With leeches?
        I mean the dual use idea isn’t wonderful but the room should never be actively gross for either purpose!

  52. anony-Nora*

    So I have some chronic health issues, generally under control but can flare up from stress. Because of a toxic work environment (bad culture, poor or nonexistent training, lack of consistency and direction, a general crap-tornado) I’ve been under so much stress I’ve got chest pain, jaw pain, generally on the verge of breaking down, and last week I admitted as much to my boss, who keeps insisting she doesn’t want me to be stressed while doing exactly nothing to fix the problems, just adding more stress to the pile.

    This week we had a departmental meeting and some coworkers were semi-joking about how much stress they’re under and boss piped up with ‘heheh, Nora’s stressed too!’

    Had a 1:1 with her the next day and told her that was not okay, that I don’t appreciate my personal health situation being brought up in front of the team and treated as a joke, and she gave me a snippy apology but I’m still mad. Maybe if your whole team is stressed and miserable, management should… you know, do something?

    Had an interview elsewhere this week that I’m feeling hopeful about, but trying not to get my hopes up too high. Best daydream I have is the exact look my boss will have when I give her my notice.

    1. London Calling*

      *Best daydream I have is the exact look my boss will have when I give her my notice.*

      Gives you a warm glow, doesn’t it? me too. Very sadly, this is the job that two years ago I thought I would retire from (I’m in my sixties). Now I can’t wait to get out.

  53. Anonymous Educator*

    I’m on the job search, and I’ve mainly worked in schools in the past (one time corporate a conservative place), but I’m now also applying to tech companies on the West Coast that have casual dress codes. When the workers are dressed casually, how do you dress for an interview there? I obviously don’t want to go full business formal, but would business casual be overkill if people are wearing (*gasp*) shorts and/or flip flops and T-Shirts?

    1. Nicki Name*

      I’ve mainly worked at those casual-dress tech companies, and business casual is totally normal for interviews.

    2. irene adler*

      Next time you schedule an interview, ask what the dress code is for the company. If they aren’t very specific, might ask: What do the [position you are applying for] folks usually wear?

      Then dress one level above.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        My concern isn’t really what their day-to-day dress code is. They’re usually pretty clear about that. I’m more concerned about just the interview.

        1. irene adler*

          Knowing the day to day dress code tells you what they will be wearing when they interview you.

          1. Anonymous Educator*

            Yes, but my question was “Given I know the day-to-day dress code is casual, what do I wear to the interview?”

    3. Yuan Zai*

      I work for a not-for-profit in the human services sector on the West Coast. We’re SLIGHTLY more formal than tech companies in our dress, but not by much. You will not look out of place or weird in business casual. It’s likely (though not certain) that the person or people interviewing you will also be dressed in business casual.

    4. Snarktini*

      Business casual is just fine. I’m west coast and almost everyone I’ve interviewed with was in jeans (at best) and one level above felt right. Usually slim black pants and a sweater/blouse, something that feels nice, but not overly conservative.Can’t speak for the rest of the coast, but I live outside of San Francisco and find the vibe here, even among tech folks, favors cool/edgy/effortless over suburban corporate square.

  54. Amber Rose*

    Small office food rant (no, I won’t talk about my diet or judge the goodness or badness of food, don’t worry):

    There is always candy and cookies in this room. We’re apparently the place for this despite the perfectly functional kitchen. And I had a three hour meeting on Monday about inventory management software to which the presenters brought three boxes each of muffins and donuts. I have no self control around sweets. I didn’t use to care. Now that I care, I’m suffering. :(

    I can honestly eat sweets once or twice a week without too much trouble. But if I do this too much, I seriously impact my ability to manage what is basically an eating disorder. It’s only been a month since I realized that’s what was going on. It’s been a very difficult month.

    I also can’t bring my own snacks to have instead. All snacks are my enemy right now. Probably not forever, but definitely now.

    1. Lily Rowan*

      Can you move the snacks to the kitchen yourself? That seems like it should be non-controversial, but I don’t know your office!

      1. Amber Rose*

        Probably not. They’re put here so they don’t aggravate the mess in the kitchen, I guess. My grand boss always ends up bringing everything here.

        1. Nessun*

          Find out for sure! Ask your grand boss, “I’d like if we could keep all the food items to the kitchen, to stop my snacking! Is there any reason we need to keep these things in this room, or can I pick them up and move them if I see them?” Maybe your grand boss is just trying to put things where they’ll be picked up and eaten? Or wants to make sure everyone in the room sees what’s on offer? No knowing until you check.

    2. E*

      Could you bring something like flavored water or tea to drink during the meetings? I find it easier to avoid sweet snacks if I’m able to sip on a low calorie fruity drink.

      1. Amber Rose*

        I can try. I don’t like flavored water (and also the flavorings give me stomach aches) but I’m currently looking into making my own iced tea.

    3. dealing with dragons*

      what helps me is making a rule where I can only eat snacks/drink pop on a certain day. that’s usually wednesday since I have friends over weekly, so it’s kinda my “let loose” day. I think it’s a lot easier to be able to say “no, it’s not wednesday so I won’t eat sweets” vs having to daily try and not munch.

      and yeah, we used to have someone who would bring in 12 donuts for our 6 person team. whyyyyyyyyyy

      1. Amber Rose*

        I can’t. I binge. If I give myself an inch, I’ll take a box of donuts, and then shame spiral into a bunch of shit that’ll make me sick.

        Until further notice I can’t have anything at work I didn’t bring with me, except for water.

        1. Blue Eagle*

          That’s what I do to avoid snacks. I have a 32 ounce cup that I fill with water and drink that during meetings with snacks, then refill it and drink that. It works pretty well for me and I wish you well, too.

        2. Ethyl*

          It sounds like you’re working really hard on this and you are doing well! Even recognizing disordered eating is SO hard (ask me how I know), so go you! Can you check in with someone on your treatment team to line up strategies for these meetings? Maybe you can say, do some journaling or mindfulness before these meetings, or suck a hard candy, or some other thing that wouldn’t have occurred to you/me/us. I hope you can find a way to make these meetings less triggering for you and that you continue to improve your relationship with food. From one person who struggles with this to another — hang in there.

  55. HelpMeImPoor*

    I’m here for mainly a vent but will take any advice. I have been job searching for a while now and am having the worst job search ever, like worse than when I graduated college. I currently work in a small nonprofit and am looking to work somewhere a bit more professional now that I have a few years of experience and just finished my Master’s degree. Everything that could go wrong this job search seems to have gone full Murphys law on me. Some examples: I interviewed for a job that apparently did not exist, I had two different bait and switch job situations where the job they posted was not really the job they were offering and I had an offer basically withdrawn because I asked about salary and benefits, that’s all crazy right?! I’m not crazy?!

    1. Natalie*

      You’re not crazy! Sounds like you’re having some bad luck, though.

      You can always take a break if it’s feeling discouraging.

      1. HelpMeImPoor*

        Thank you Natalie! I took a bit to regroup, I don’t really love the job I’m in right now (it’s pretty rough here) but my job search has also grown into an uncontrollable monster. I might scale it back a bit and only respond to companies I really want.

    2. MostCake*

      Here’s my worst job search: Flashback to the 80s in Las Vegas. I was so young I don’t remember the economic or political climate, but literally 90% of the jobs in the newspapers were via agency, and the applicant had to pay their fee! I remember replying to one ad, being directed to an agency and treated very rudely (like a criminal really), and they then told me I had to stand by at all times and wait to be contacted by phone with a 30-45 window to show at an interview. That was so there was no way I could suss out the job on my own and them not get credit for it and make me pay their fee. In one instance I was offered the job and then told by the agency I had to pay something like 60 percent of my pay to them for several months! What??? It was ridiculous and I turned the job down. Fortunately, I ended up being eligible for reemployment at a company I’d worked for a few years before, and got a job with them after going directly to their HR, but the agency went mad and kept accusing me of using them to find my job.

      Years later I was in a different state and learned that employment agencies usually work the opposite way and the employer pays their fee. I don’t know if it was the time or the place, but who can work for months with less than half pay?

  56. stitchinthyme*

    Bit of good news to share! Boss came into my office and shut the door the other day (thus triggering my instinctive “Oh no, what have I done wrong?” reaction) and handed me an envelope. Inside was a notice that I’d gotten a pretty damn nice raise. Boss said something like, “Management has been reviewing salaries and decided to increase compensation for a few key people in the company.” The subtext (which boss confirmed): “Management is panicking because a good 20% of the total employees — including many longtime ones — have jumped ship lately, and they’re afraid of losing more.”

    Not gonna complain; I’ve been here 6 years now, and between this raise, another even more substantial one I got about 4 years ago in a counteroffer, and the other, more modest annual raises I’ve gotten, I am now making 45% more than my starting salary (which was pretty decent in the first place). And that’s with no promotions or increases in job duties. (It’s a pretty flat organization and I have never wanted to be in management.)

    So yeah, it’s been a good week.

    1. SezU*

      Love this! I had a similar experience at what sounds like a similar organization. Nice to be appreciated!

    2. Curmudgeon in California*

      Congratulations! Events like that are great to hear about. It gives me hope in a cynical world.

  57. Bad Coffee*

    How do you express you need time off from work (true time off, not working remotely, checking email, etc.) and then have it actually happen?

    I have a standard, salaried 9-5, M-F job. I do in-house design and branding work. I stay late almost every day, eat at my desk while working (company gives us an hour for lunch) AND I will come in early if I need to (though I am a night owl and hate mornings) plus work on weekends when deadlines loom (which is often). This year I have worked on my birthday (which was a Sunday), worked while out of town for the funerals of two grandparents, worked on my week off while I also had the flu (which I delayed going to the dr for and then it was too late for tamiflu, sob!), worked on easter and I’ll be working on my kid’s bday (this was is a given, their bday always falls on a big work event). It’s just all adding up.

    After each of these events I talk to my boss and reiterate 1) the work I do is never life and death, rarely high stakes, so can soft deadlines be pushed off until I return and/or I trust the judgement of my coworkers, can they handle more urgent things when I’m out unexpectedly (sick, funerals) 2) I really need to have true time off from work. For planned absences, I alway wrap up my work before hand and I also have to schedule them now when our contractor is working in-house with us, but emergencies always seem to crop up and I am seen as the only person who can handle them. It’s to the point that I don’t leave my office without telling our office manager where I’m going, how long I’ll be gone, how to get in touch with me, etc. (not normal for our company culture or the work I do).

    Boss is very understanding and seems to “get it,” but nothing changes. I’m so tired and burnt out and I just don’t know what to do but silently curse at people inside my head!

    1. Four lights*

      Wow, that is a lot. I would start with one piece at a time. Like before a vacation–“I want to really be able to relax, so I’m not going to be checking my phone or email while I’m away. In the past I’ve been contacted when issues arise, let’s come up with a plan for who will handle that while I’m gone.” The move on to weekends, and weeknights. If you do get a call you can say, “As we discussed it’s important to my health that I not be working on my day off-is something that Jane can handle or I can work on when I get back?”

      I think you’re going to have to stick to your guns and say no. Since your boss is understanding, I think they’ll be okay with that.

      1. Bad Coffee*

        I haven’t tried that, clarifying before hand who will handle the insanity that crops up while I’m out. I’ll give that a go.

        1. Dust Bunny*

          Do this. I use an out-of-office autoreply with the name and email/phone number of whoever else should be contacted, too.

        2. Seeking Second Childhood*

          The out-of-office message has been my friend: “I am out of the office without email access until $DATE and will read your email on my return. If this is time-critical, please work with Jane Grey (teapot handles) or John Doe (teapot spouts).”
          I suggest not working while you’re visiting family at hospital, attending funerals, or out with the flu — that’s when we make the most errors. I’ve learned that the hard way and spent more time picking out my knots than I like to remember.

    2. Semaj*

      Have you ever tried not responding to the messages you receive while you’re out?

      It’s a tried and true Alison recommendation to say “I’ll be out this day and unavailable, but I’ll catch up when I’m back on X” and then stick to it. It seems like you’re telling your boss that you need true absences but why are you then responding to communication as if you’re available?

      Try taking a true day out and see what happens.

      1. Bad Coffee*

        I have tried not responding or asking if things can wait and either get called out specifically “we need Bad Coffee to weigh in/handle this/whatever,” get text messages “I’m so sorry to bother you on your day off…” or I get told that the thing can’t wait and I do need to work while I’m out. This sometimes comes from my boss and sometimes from my coworkers (in my department, not from people in other departments that I may be doing work for.)

        2. Sunflower*

          I’d try to ask for an action plan from your boss. Remind him you have previously discussed how this isn’t working and how he wants to help but it’s still happening. And then ask him ‘what is the plan to alleviate this going forward’. Start putting up your OOO on the weekends.. If your boss doesn’t have a plan or it isn’t working, I’d put my foot down if you can do so without getting fired by saying ‘I’m off on Monday and wont be responding to emails, texts, calls, etc.’ And then don’t. I feel like your team has lost their ‘call me if it’s an emergency’ rights.

          Also- if you can, try to identify the people who can cover this stuff while you’re out. If there isn’t someone, then there needs to be. Offer to train them. IMO, I think they are doing this because you keep responding and it’s not really a ‘problem’ for them yet. It doesn’t sound like they will do anything until it becomes a problem for them which is when you aren’t there to pick up the pieces.

          I really do feel for you because I’ve been in a similar situation and realized that my other teammates were setting stricter boundaries than I was and that was why I was in this situation. I really think if you try to put your foot down, you will have better results. Good luck!

        3. Gumby*

          What would happen if you…. just didn’t do it? Didn’t respond to messages, didn’t check email, ignored phone calls? Think of it as training them to respect your days off and learn coping skills on how to deal with your absence. If you absolutely refused to do whatever work thing couldn’t wait – they would probably magically find that it could wait. Or that someone who was there could handle it.

          I had a manager who took an annual family vacation to a campground that had no cell reception and no internet. We were not nearly as boundary-crossing as your current workplace so I’m 99.9% sure it wasn’t a convenient lie – so such places exist and you should vacation at one of them.

        4. Curmudgeon in California*

          You might want to point out to your manager that if you burn out and don’t get downtime, you could get really, really sick, and literally unable to work for an extended period of time.

          Maybe ask him what he would do if you got hit by a bus or won the lottery.

          Being the indispensable person sounds great, until you’re the one stuck not able to be “off the clock”, ever.

    3. PX*

      I’m sure someone with more Google-fu can find some replies Alison has written on this, but the first thought that came to me was an answer Captain Awkward gave when someone had a similar problem. Start small by making yourself unavailable on evenings. Then weekends (assuming no true deadlines are looming). Dont look at your phone, answer your phone or emails. Blandly reply that you were unavailable if people ask where you were. And then build up to asking for a true vacation, and if it helps you, lie, or actually do take a vacation somewhere truly remote with no signal.

      Essentially its like setting boundaries and training yourself to say no, but also training them that you are not always available on demand.

      (I also find it interesting that you say you’re seen as the person who can handle the crises, but not whether or not you actually are the only person who can fix them, and in the timeframes demanded).

      Or consider cross-training someone to do some of your tasks?

      But I’m more of a fan of setting boundaries ;)

      1. Bananatiel*

        ^ This! Wasn’t a flawless solution but in my last design job I was you, Bad Coffee. Doesn’t help when you really are the only person that knows the software or has the creative ability but I made some headway. My boss didn’t like it but I started small like PX said. I reclaimed my evenings by ignoring text messages and emails from my boss until the next morning first (I let oldboss know that I was going to be unable to respond first, of course). She didn’t like that at all but sure enough we eventually came to an understanding. Then I moved up to weekends, half days, whole days over the course of like a year. She would still sometimes try to text me about “emergencies” on my days off but unless it actually seemed like an emergency I held firm and just didn’t respond.

        Unfortunately, this story doesn’t really have a happy ending because oldboss still had a meltdown when I took a week off to go on a backpacking trip where I was truly off the grid and couldn’t use my phone. I was maxed out on vacation time and the only reason she approved it is because I went over her head and talked about how excited I was about the trip to her boss who was “proud of me to take some time for myself” (LOL, the time I would have taken if I was allowed!). Not super proud of that but it was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. Shortly after that I started job searching and I was out of there within three months. Newjob has strict rules about after-hours emails, nevermind texts/calls!

    4. fposte*

      I’m with Semaj–what happens when you say “Sorry, somebody else needs to handle this or I can tackle it when I come back Monday?” I mean, if he wrote in we’d tell him to stop asking, but since you’re the one here, what we can suggest is treating being asked as a question, and saying “No” when it needs to be said.

    5. RandomU...*

      Book a vacation to a location that has crappy or no cell service. I’m not kidding. I discovered small boats (less than 25 passengers) in remote locations are notoriously bad for staying in contact. Once you do that and they survive without you, then you’ll have set the boundary for the not on vacation time away.

      Start small…. “Hey I’m going to be out of reliable cell coverage over the weekend, just a heads up.”
      Vacation days… Out of office msg “Thank you for your email, I will be out of the office on 5/3 and not available by cell. Please contact X for urgent or time sensitive needs during this time.”

      In other words, be very clear about the times you won’t be reachable but continue to be accommodating when you are ok with it.

    6. foolofgrace*

      These are all good advice but I’m not that nice. I’d just not look at my email or phone, well actually I’d look at it but would ignore it as if I hadn’t looked at it, and let the chips fall where they may. They are unlikely to fire you for taking time off that you are legitimately due, like weekends and evenings, *especially* if you truly are the only person who knows this stuff. Work on all those crazy days, especially your kid’s birthday? No way. Just stop being so available.

    7. Lilysparrow*

      If people are going to demand your attention on non urgent matters while you are at a freaking funeral, I doubt there is any way to ask permission to be left alone, and have them agree and respect it.

      You have trained them to treat your time off as negotiable, because you treat it as negotiable.

      You’re going to just have to set an out of office message with contact info for the person who’s covering, and don’t reply.

      At all. Not till you get back. And when you get called out after your return, the reply is, “I told you I was out and X was covering this.”

      You might try the gradual Captain Awkward approach, or you might go cold-turkey. But if you announce that you’re out, and then keep working, they will never, ever believe it’s real.

      You have to be the one to make it real.

    8. only acting normal*

      What exactly does an in house design and branding emergency look like? Because I’m trying and failing to come up with a branding situation of sufficiently high stakes that they should interrupt your evening let alone your grandparents’ funerals.
      I know people who work with actual life-and-death who’s managers take their downtime more seriously than this.

      1. Burner*

        I’m a lawyer and I started backcountry hiking for this very reason. Sorry, no cell service. I’ll reply when I get back!

  58. Vacay Baby*

    Ok… opinions needed! What would you consider too much vacation time (if you didn’t know anything about a company’s culture) ? I’m 6 months into my role and my last job people took copious amounts of vacation. This role, it’s a moderate amount. But I didn’t take any time off for the first 4 months of my job and now it’s wedding season for me, so I’ve had to take off at least one or two days off per month (a Friday usually so I can travel to these weddings.)

    From May to July I am wanting to go back home for another wedding (so…many…weddings…) and then just a vacation. But I do the weekend vacation where I take a long weekend.

    This adds up to taking one (or two depending on the travel, but that will be rare) day off per month for the next three months.

    Is that too much? I know some people save up their days for a longer vacation, but with the timing of things I can only do one day per month. This doesn’t conflict with my work schedule. But when I looked around the internet as to what’s the “normal” for taking off, I wasn’t sure if once per month was too much. Some people on the internet say at most they’ll take one day off every three months. What’s the normal/what’s too much?

    1. Four lights*

      That doesn’t sound like too much to me. How much vacation do you get? I think you should take the total amount.

      I think the only issue is that there are some companies that have a culture of frowning on taking vacation–but you wouldn’t want to work for a place like that. If it hasn’t been an issue yet then you probably don’t.

      1. Vacay Baby*

        We get 12 days total plus holidays (which is a lot less than my previous position, but you get what ya get.) I don’t think it’s been an issue as in no one has said anything to me. But I’m always paranoid about vacation! Like, I don’t want to look like a slacker but I know that that mentality is probably wack.

        1. Bananatiel*

          I was going to suggest that a good guideline is dividing your time out by the month. I get 24 days a year and it’s really not uncommon for people to take about 2 days a month here as a result. So with 12 days I don’t think it’d be abnormal at all to take 1 day a month!

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Do you have “unlimited vacation,” or do you accrue a certain number of vacation days? If it’s the former, I don’t think once per month is too much. If it’s the latter, I don’t think there is such a thing as “too much”—you have the vacation days you have, and you should be able to use them (as long as you get your work done and there’s coverage in your office).

      1. Vacay Baby*

        We accrue! Ok, phew. That’s reassuring to hear. Now I can stop being paranoid about it!

    3. Minerva McGonagall*

      In my industry, a day off a month is not too unusual. Especially with how “wedding season” has become A Thing, most will understand that it’s a commitment. Even taking a long weekend vacation shouldn’t raise eyebrows. You’re not taking off a day a week, you should be good!

    5. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      One day per month doesn’t sound excessive at all! Figure that an average amount of vacation time for the year (at least in the US) is between 2 and 3 weeks’ worth — one day a month would be 12 days a year, right in the middle of that.

    6. Annie Moose*

      One day off a month is 12 days total a year, which is not all that much vacation. Don’t worry about it.

    7. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I take a chunk of 3-5 days about four times a year (roughly February, April, July, and September, give or take), and then the occasional one day here or there in between. My boss’s big bugaboo is year-end, because that’s when all our deadlines are, so I generally don’t take time off between Halloween and New Years, barring the actual holidays. (Not because she’d tell me no out of hand, just more that I don’t have any pressing reason to do, so I don’t bother to ask.)

    8. Anu*

      This question honestly seems kind of nuts to me. How much vacation do you accrue each month? That’s generally the expected amount then. We get 3 days at the beginning of the year plus accrue another two each month up to a max of 23 days off – and I generally take all of it, and so do most people I know. That’s apart from company holidays etc. This is in the US. Unless you’re in a very dysfunctional work culture, 1 day a month seems more than reasonable!

  59. Katt*

    Hey everyone!

    About eight weeks ago, I was hired as a contractor to do industry-specific content writing; this was my first paid position in the field I got a degree in last year (though I do have other volunteer work in-field to speak of).

    Within about a week of seeing my writing ability firsthand, the company decided to make me an editor. While this did not come with a change in pay, only about 5% of their writers ever made editor (based on writing skill, etc) and I was told my “promotion” was the fastest that the company had executed in seven years.

    Fast forward to now– after a massive hiring push and a seemingly reliable and growing workload, the company shockingly and all-but instantly folded. My personal suspicion is that there’s a legal case afoot, probably related to the misclassification of its workers as contractors when we were by all intents and purposes performing an essential company function (writing/editing for a writing company) with all the control and oversight you’d expect in an employer-employee relationship. That said, there is no publicly-available information on any pending legal action at this time.

    My question is this– seeing as this is my first paid position in this field, and given how proud I am of the work I did there, is there any way to put my tenure with this organization on my resume without it hurting my chances more than it helps? Normally I wouldn’t even consider putting an eight-week stint on a resume unless it was a planned, temporary position, but this seems like a grey area. Does anyone have any advice?

    1. Troutwaxer*

      “February – May 2019, Company went bankrupt.” (And “see writing example 3” if you need to present a portfolio.)

    2. Autumnheart*

      I’d put it on your resume, and when asked why your tenure was so short, say that the company closed, which was very surprising to you/everyone. It’s not your fault that the company went down. Leaving a position off your resume is for when you’re not likely to get a good reference, and the employment gap is negligible. You don’t have to leave it off when you did a GOOD job!

    3. Seeking Second Childhood*

      You say you were a contractor but imply that it wasn’t a “planned temporary position” — which makes me think that yup they might well have misclassified employees as contractors.
      Regardless, you were a contractor — so put it down as a contract! One week contract as a writer… 7 week contract as an editor… ended by company when it went bankrupt.
      Good luck!

  60. SOAS*

    How does your company treat excessive absences? Or better yet, how do you define excessive absences at your company when WFH isn’t an option for majority of staff?

    To me it’s every week or more than every other week. A few people had bad attendance and we fired them, b/c the absences were part of the performance issues. For others, we came up with solutions so it’s really on a case by case basis.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Does your company have policies around vacation days and sick days? Presumably they’re using those to be out, and those will run out at some point?

      1. SOAS*

        Tax season and extension-deadline season are blackout dates, PTo will not be approved. otherwise, a sporadic day off here in off season is NBD. Some have negotiated extra time off, which isn’t an issue.

    2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      For us, if you have the sick/personal time available, there’s no attendance issue with using it as needed (assuming that it doesn’t turn into a worrying pattern like calling out every Friday all summer or skipping out on multiple important events). Once you’ve run out of sick/personal days, then that starts turning into progressive discipline.

      1. SOAS*

        One guy called out sick on deadline days AND frequently on Friday/Mondays. Let go

        One guy would call out sick at least every other week. Towards end of tax season it was really a betting game at that point to see if they would show up. We’d have ot reshuffle his work every single time. Let go

        A few others who were literally calling out sick one day a week for 3 months to the point it was unapid leave. One of them had 4 kids under 7, and she or they were getting sick all the time– for her we tried to change her role and allow her WFH at our discretion. Eventually she found something else that fit her, so I was really happy for her on that.
        The other, was fired due to many many other issues.

        I have a direct report right now who calls out sick every other week, but when he’s here, he’s great. Good attitude, good work. During busy season, he called out sick a efw days in a row. I tried to talk to him earlier to get a sense of what’s going on but he just kept saying “personal issues.” I wasn’t trying to get dirt but more like… hey I want to make sure you’re OK, but these excessive absences are becoming an issue.

        2. fposte*

          It sounds like you all are in need of a quantitative advance definition of “excessive” in your policy, because it seems like you’re running into this a lot and have to keep winging it. “Vacation will not be granted in March and April, and absences of more than a day during that time will be subject to counseling and possible warning.”

          If they’re running into the red on their sick leave, that’s unambiguous, but really do the math on the sick leave–would, outside of whatever tax season is (and that has to be defined pretty narrowly), they have enough sick leave for these absences? Then I don’t think you can hold it against them for taking it, Friday/Monday or no.

          1. SOAS*

            I think the only defined rule is no approved PTO during specific dates that are spelled out.

            I personally have no issue with them taking it on Friday/Mondays. Actually my mgr and I had a good conversation about it, I said that some places take it negatively that sick days are taken on M/F (not at our job just in general)..he said “it’s a good time to take it b/c that give s you the weekend to recuperate.” Also to his credit, he doesn’t really care if you’re sick or not and won’t press for details. It just becomes an issue when other things are coming up.

            We also have ppl who take scheduled PTO on Monday or Friday and that’s not an issue either.

            Just wanted to get a general sense of what’s normal.

        3. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

          Yikes, every other week during tax season is ugly, especially if it’s toward the end of tax season when you have all the procrastinators turning up the heat!

          We had someone on an extended LOA for almost the entirety of tax season, and while I don’t hold it against the dude, we definitely felt the pain of it.

    3. fposte*

      I don’t think it can be “excessive” if it’s within the allowable PTO days. It can be inappropriate–short notice vacation that screws other people, taking off during events or crunch times–but that needs to be spelled out as well.

    4. Construction Safety*

      Two tier: 1) the folks that they like can have as much time off as they want; 2) for the folks they don’t like, 1 day triggers snide comments.

  61. Pebbles*

    We currently have a donation campaign at work where we were given details about what it was for and asked to donate via email (“click here and enter your credit card details to donate”). Now, there was language in the email that it was completely optional to donate, anything (even $1) would help, but the emails that followed have really soured me on this campaign. Info such as “This is part of a larger campaign and every $1 donated is one point for our company. Let’s win this!” and “One of our clients is running this campaign so we need to impress them.” That’s when it became a reply-all fest with people saying “Here’s my $25!”, “Count me in for another $25!”, etc. I got 15 emails from various people detailing how much they were giving. Now, no one is going to go around checking up on people that didn’t donate, but it just feels, I don’t know, not the appropriate spirit and reasons to donate to a charity.

    (This may have just been me needing to vent.)

    1. SezU*

      My employer does this a couple times a year. I used to donate because both were things I support. However, I found out that the clearinghouse they used took 6 months to get the actual donation to the charity so I quit doing that and just send the money directly to the charity.

      People rarely ask, but those that have had the nerve got to hear why I don’t. I won’t participate in pushing the communication either. As you note, it tends to get more and more aggressive with each communication!

      Leave me alone and get off my lawn!

      LOL

      1. valentine*

        The company can just budget for this if they want to impress the client in this gross fashion.

  62. B. J. Salinger*

    Need some perspective on this: there is a coworker in the IT department who is very nice and helpful, but who constantly invites me to parties at his house with this family. He’s in his mid-40s whereas I am in my mid-twenties. He has a wife and kids and it’s all super vanilla — no funny business that he’s interested in me or otherwise. However, I am running out of ways to polite decline his overtures since I like to keep my personal and professional live totally separate with very, limited, rare exceptions when a colleague can cross that line some. This coworker and I are in totally different life stages and I find that we don’t have a lot of common ground. At work, we are very chatty about work related stuff, and I am generally friendly, but my patient is wearing thin. Any suggestions for managing this person? I have to work with them from time to time and I like him and would like to keep the collegiality, but that’s all I want from this colleague-ship.

    1. Natalie*

      I like to keep my personal and professional live totally separate

      Probably just tell him that?

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Yeah, honestly, I’ve said almost this exact thing to people at work, and no one’s taken offense. I love being friends with former co-workers, and I don’t really like being friends with current co-workers, and that approach has worked well for me for decades.

      2. CheeryO*

        Yeah, there’s nothing wrong with maintaining those kinds of boundaries. I’d be polite but honest, or else he’s probably going to just keep asking forever.

    2. Glomarization, Esq.*

      “Thanks, but I can’t make it because I have another commitment” is something you can use over and over again.

      1. Admin of Sys*

        The difficulty with that is you end up having to use it over and over again, because it implies if you ever did have a moment free, you would accept.
        I think a polite and good natured but clear boundary is needed: “I appreciate all these invites, but I’m not really up for socializing outside of work with coworkers. Thanks for understanding! ” And then if he invites again, repeat with an added ‘we talked about this, in case it wasn’t clear, I’m not going to accept the invites. I’m happy to be work friends, but I keep those at work’

    3. Batgirl*

      “You’ve asked me this a few times but I have literally no free time socially. I’ll let you know if that changes”
      If he wants to hear more “I could chew your ear off but I didn’t think X was your kind of thing?”

      I wonder if he’s trying to set you up with someone. This is unusually persistent from someone with different interests.

  63. SadMidwesterner*

    Ugh, can someone give me a reality check? Got an offer pending reference/background checks from a government agency. Filled out paperwork and submitted everything for the checks three weeks ago as of this coming Monday. Still haven’t heard about a start date or confirmation or anything. This is pretty normal timing for the government, right? I’m trying not to freak out, but yesterday I signed a lease that assumes I’ll have that higher income (risky, but I had to). So now I’m freaking out!

    1. Acctnt*

      Totally normal! I applied for one and the job poster said getting confirmation from the state could take anywhere between 30 and 60 days. My sister is going through a similar process and she’s at about the month mark right now. I wouldn’t panic since you filled out everything!

    2. SezU*

      Fed govt is notoriously slow. They have a backlog on background checks. It has taken up to 6 months! Which is one reason they have trouble hiring… people get tired of waiting and move on. Just try to be patient.

      1. SezU*

        Also, just to add, my background check took 6 weeks and I was already a Fed. Just changing agencies, and I already had a clearance level that was not needed at new job!

    3. Middle Manager*

      The government know no bounds when it comes to how slow something can move. It’s probably okay to check in with your contact, but three weeks is entirely normal in my government experience.

  64. in a profession pickle*

    anyone have tips for making connections outside your current field? i’ve been in the same industry for pretty much my whole career (12 years), and in the next couple of years have a goal to get a similar job in another industry for more stability/opportunities for growth – basically going from like, tea market analysis to soda market analysis, so similar outputs but for different audiences.

    big problem is my industry is pretty niche – folks who have been at it as long as i have tend to stay in it for life and i don’t really know anyone who’s made this kind if transition. i would love to do a couple informational chats with folks in the other industry about what kind of skills i should be focusing on or if i should pursue a master’s before trying to change jobs. i’m a couple years out from actually applying for anything (i like my current company and want to save up money since i’ll likely wind up relocating for a new gig), but also feel too old to be trying to ask for informational interviews! any tips?

    1. irene adler*

      Are their professional organizations pertaining to the industries you wish to move into?
      Might do some internet searches with different key words as they aren’t always straightforward to find.

      If you find some, look into whether they have a local chapter. And if they meet regularly. Then attend one of their meetings. There’s where you can get good advice on becoming part of the industry you are interested in.

  65. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    I guess my anxiety has been really bad lately, and I am still stressed from losing my grandfather and worrying for my grandmother.

    So for some reason I have been stuttering quite badly lately. Only with my wife, a friend, and one coworker, I don’t. It’s not an issue with my parents because I don’t do it in another language. And so far I have hidden it re: work because nearly everything is email and I have avoided saying much.

    It will probably get better as I work more on my anxiety. But more immediately, what do I do? And how do I do things like go to Starbucks, when one order for me may take much longer because of this? Should I write stuff down or should I keep trying so as not to avoid it? I don’t want to be annoying either.

    1. Four lights*

      As someone who worked as a barista, the only annoying person is the one who’s on their phone and finishing a conversation before ordering.

      If it takes you a while to order because of the stutter that’s fine. If you’d feel more comfortable just writing it down, that’s fine too.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      Can’t you order Starbucks online using their app? (Also, sorry you’re finding yourself at this point.)

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Normal people are not annoyed with a stutterer. Humans, especially ones who have to deal with the general public like a barista just wants you to be respectful to them and are happy to work with your speech impairment.

      They deal with accents and people who can’t speak the language at all or who can’t read, etc. They see this every day and you are not going to be an issue for them as long as you aren’t being rude, demanding and acting like they should understand you perfectly despite your stutter/accent/etc.

      I work with a stutterer, it gets worse with stress or later in the day when energy starts to dip. Just slow down, recognize that I may need you to repeat yourself and it’s business as usual. Be kind to yourself.

      Yes there are jerks in every walk of life and maybe a barista will be having a bad day and you’ll rub them wrong. So what. They can deal with it, welcome to life and coexisting!

      I have a speech impediment that gets heavier when stressed or tired as well. I get tied up with my tongue or stumble over works. I just say “I need to start over, I’m sorry, one of those days!” and start again. I do this with servers and customer service folks all the time when necessary. I’ve never had anyone react poorly. Perhaps a haggard soul may give you a dead-look but they’re not going to have their day shot all to heck and back because they had to have a customer repeat themselves or needed to be corrected if they heard you wrong.

    4. Grapey*

      I used to be a coffee slinger and a stutter might be embarrassing for you, but the vast majority will not have any problems with it.

      I had bigger problems with:
      – People that talk to their friends in a long line but only look at the menu when they’re next, and go “uhhhh, let me see…. hey fergus, what are you getting? is it good?…”
      – People that let their extremely young kids order and don’t clarify what they mean and then sigh if they’re angry that not all adults speak 4 year old
      – People who, halfway through making their drink, change their order without an apology

    5. LQ*

      I lost my voice for about a month and I was sick and felt crappy, but my coffee shop was great. Luckily I went there enough that they would just ring in the usual for me and I could just smile and they were ok with that. As long as you are kind (and if you are asking about making life easier for the person checking you out at Starbucks you are kind!) people are nearly always kind in response.

      Order online, self checkout are saviors. But also it’s …a little weirdly nice to see the kindness in others and sometimes can make bad things seem less bad. I do recommend having a note that you carry with you (I had it written on a business card sized paper I carried with me), you could just say “Voice trouble” or “Can’t speak” that plus a please be kind smile and a throat/mouth gesture will get you a long way. And if you want to speak with the stutter the only people who are going to be annoyed are jerks, serious jerks. Like avoid at all cost ones.

    6. Tau*

      So I stutter and this question is of interest to me! I’ve spent most of my life stuttering overtly, some of it covert/mostly fluent thanks to speech therapy, and am currently occupying a space where it runs the gamut from mild but noticeable to severe enough to render me close to incomprehensible depending on situation.

      My thoughts:
      – you are the only one who has to deal with the stutter 24/7, 365 days out of the year. That means that what’s comfortable for you is most important. The barista, the other customers behind you in the queue? They can deal with the twenty extra seconds your order might take. Focus on what’s best for you instead of what you think would make those others comfortable.
      – there are very, very few situations where those twenty extra seconds really, genuinely matter. Like, maybe don’t work as an emergency operator? But apart from that… generally, no one is going to die and nothing bad is going to happen because a conversation with you takes a little longer than typical.
      – anyone who would think less of you because of your stutter or make fun of it is an asshole who is not worth your time :)

      In general, I personally always try to talk as usual no matter how badly I’m stuttering at the time. Including at Starbucks! :) I will very occasionally write things down, but it’s rare – basically I’ll only write down a single word, if I’ve already tried and failed to say it comprehensibly several times. I find writing interrupts the flow of conversation even more than even quite severe stuttering, so I generally avoid it.

      Something else I do which was *terrifying* at first but which I find people react really well to is to address the stutter openly. I have a little spiel I often do when I first meet people – “by the way, I have a speech disorder which acts up sometimes, please let me know if you have trouble understanding me and I’ll be happy to repeat myself” and I think it goes over really well. If you’re up to it, you could try something similar at Starbucks – “sorry, my stutter’s acting up, would it help if I wrote it down?” (I actually started doing this in one of my more fluent phases post-speech therapy, because I wanted to avoid the lure of trying to hide the stutter – that just gives me so much stress and anxiety that I found it best to close that route straight off.)

      (also, can I say that I’m jealous you don’t stutter in your other language? I’m effectively bilingual and stutter equally in both, and I’ve been trying to learn Spanish and it’s been horrible – when I started I was basically unable to talk at all because I stuttered so badly on every syllable, and although it’s gotten a lot better since it’s still way more severe than in German or English.)

  66. Anon Librarian*

    I’m in Special Collections Librarianship and I think I need a reality check. I have been interviewing for jobs intensely for about a year. I’ve been a finalist 5 times and I haven’t yet gotten an offer. In any statistical examination of my search I am doing really well- the majority of my applications lead to phone screens. The about half of my phone screens lead to in-person interviews. However, I can’t help but feel like I am ‘always the bridesmaid, never the bride’ and with another in-person interview coming up, I really feel like I need to psyche myself up. Any advice on how to build up energy when I’m starting to feel deeply defeated?

    1. Argh!*

      Do you know who did get the jobs you applied for? If they’re internal candidates, that’s just the breaks. If they’re reasonably similar to you in credentials, it might be worth talking to your references to see what they’re saying about you.

      Do you have to make a presentation with powerpoint? Practicing in front of a trusted friend may help you gain some confidence.

    2. Overeducated*

      This is a marathon, not a sprint. You ARE doing really well in a competitive and highly specialized field. The next one could be the one, you’re just waiting for a lucky break and it could come at any time!

      But also, remember that it’s mutual. I feel like I’ve often done better in interviews where I’ve gone in relaxed, whether because I was seriously evaluating the job for whether I’d want it, or feeling like it was so out of my league there was no real pressure, or both. I think coming in with that attitude may subconsciously make me seem more calm, competent, and confident in my qualifications.

      Good luck!

    3. Dust Bunny*

      Archives employee: As far as I know, competition for jobs in this field is beyond cutthroat, especially in areas in which it is considered at all desirable to live, so I assume that you are very much not alone in this.

    4. GigglyPuff*

      I am right there with you (archivist). I’ve been looking for over two years now, and been a finalist 8 times (I think, I have Friday brain and can’t count them all). I finally got a job offer last month but after a massive realization that I didn’t just “want to get the heck out” of my current job, I wanted a better place and a job I was excited for, and it isn’t the worst job situation, I turned the job offer down (for several reasons). And it’s been hard, being excited for the next one, to keep the motivation going. I don’t really have an advice, just commiseration. But I know focusing on outside stuff helps, hobbies and whatnot on the weekends, so it’s not all about the job search.

    5. An Archivist*

      It’s a really difficult field right now. One paraprofessional position that pays an abysmal salary in my city got over 200 applications, and most of the applicants had an MLS.

    6. Drago Cucina*

      You’re doing well. It’s a competitive field and the internal candidates are often our strongest competition (I say this having done multiple phone interviews for other library director positions in the past 2 years.) You are obviously capable and impressing them enough to want to meet you face-to-face. Go in knowing you can do the job. Regardless of obstacles you can over come them. Think of your biggest challenge with a special collection and how that can be applied to other concerns.

    7. Spider*

      Hey, great timing! I’m a staff person with an MLIS at an academic library, and coincidentally, we’ve just finished the in-person interviews for our Special Collections Librarian position. Ask me anything! :)

      Some questions for you:
      1) How many years of professional experience do you have?

      2) Are the positions you’re applying for tenured faculty positions? If so, how much teaching experience do you have? Have you published any scholarly research? (If you haven’t published anything yet, do you have a good idea of what you would research and publish once you were hired?)

      3) How much experience do you have with, well, anything falling under the umbrella of Networking/Outreach/Collaboration with the Out-Group (so to speak)? Special Collections Librarians often have to initiate partnerships with donors, visiting scholars, campus faculty who (for one reason or another) have never brought their students into the library, etc. — even if you’ve never done this kind of work as a librarian, if you’ve done it in any capacity (like, IDK, as a music promoter, or a sales person, or whatever), be sure to bring this up in your cover letter and interview.

      If your in-person interviews involve a teaching demonstration, here are some tips:

      A) Make sure you follow the teaching prompt you were given! (I’ve seen so many candidates fail to do this, and it’s a huge mark against them.)

      B) Don’t stick only to Powerpoint, but actively use the hiring library’s website and OPAC and any other online resources like libguides during your presentation — in other words, demonstrate how you navigate these sources and perform searches in real-time, not through screenshots on a Powerpoint slide.

      C) Use the hiring institution’s resources as much as you can in your presentation, not your current institution’s. (For example, say your instruction prompt involves using digital collections of photographs to a History 101 class here at XXXX College — use XXXX College’s digital collections of photographs, not your current library’s!)

      Tying into (C) but also more generally: really do your research on the position and the hiring institution before your interview! Familiarize yourself with their library’s website, what collections they have, and how those collections tie into the institution’s history and current curriculum. This doesn’t just show your enthusiasm for working at XXXX College, it demonstrates your own research skills as a librarian! (This probably sounds so obvious it shouldn’t need to be said, but I’ve seen many candidates give canned, generic presentations they could give at any library anywhere. This is not a good look!)

      Above all else, good luck!!

      1. Anon Librarian*

        Thank you for your advice, though I wasn’t really looking for tips on the interview process as much as asking for advice on how to overcome a general feeling of ennui regarding in-person interview number 6.

        While I agree with most of what you said, I think B is fairly problematic advice, because in the various interviews I have done over the years (not including this current round, I’ve been on over a dozen in-persons over the years), I have been in situations multiple times where either there was no internet access available and/or where I was using a clicker (not a mouse) while the computer was across the room. So, while I think demonstration is all well and good, I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect candidates to make something that relies on often spotty technology central to their presentation. People use screen captures, because screen captures do not crash when the campus internet goes down.

  67. Long Time Lurker*

    Hi everyone! Long time lurker, first time commenter with a question:

    I was hired about 8 months ago. I replaced someone who had moved away. I am mostly enjoying the job, have gotten lots of positive feedback, and fit in well with the office culture.

    Anyway, our website has staff bios and the person I replaced is still up there, and my bio has not been put up yet. It’s very clearly a matter of them not having gotten around to it yet (there are always low priority things around here and there that need to get done but just haven’t been gotten to) and I don’t think that many people actually read the bios. I have, by now, introduced myself to all the outside contacts my predecessor worked with as part of this role, so it’s not like anyone is expecting my predecessor and being surprised that there’s someone new. The only reason I even know the bios section hasn’t been updated is because my dad went to check it out (probably to brag to his friends) and noticed.

    I know I should ask the website person to update it, because, well, the website should be accurate, and I’m part of the team now so I should be listed as such. At the same time, I feel so silly bringing up something so minor and I would feel a bit like I’m tooting my own horn. It’s not like the position is that special. It’s entry level, I’m new to the field, it’s not like I’m so special and important, and I don’t want to seem pushy about something minor. Should I say something? What would be the best way to bring it up? What should I do if the person says “right, of course we should do that” but then doesn’t get around to it for awhile? Thanks!

    1. LCL*

      Ask the HR person who worked with you on intake who is responsible for updating the website. Then contact that person and ask them to do it. Where I work it wouldn’t actually be the website person’s job, if I asked them to do it I would be waiting a long time.

      1. Long Time Lurker*

        We’re pretty small, about 20 employees. The HR person just does payroll and benefits. I’m pretty sure the website person would be the one to do it.

        1. Autumnheart*

          Are you the one who provides the copy and info that goes in there? If so, I’d just write your bio, provide a photo if you need one, and then send an email to the website person with, “When you get around to it, could you update the bios page to take out Former Employee and add me? I’ve attached my content.”

          I doubt the website person would take umbrage at that. Updating the code would basically be a pretty simple matter of cutting and pasting into the appropriate location.

    2. Mazzy*

      This reminds me of a few RFPs in my last role. We had to put bios for everyone, and honestly, it was awkward coming up with them for lower level employees. Some people had done non corporate jobs during the Great Recession and had nothing pertinent to put down. Maybe the party responsible wants to wait until you have more history?

      1. Long Time Lurker*

        I do have some history. I switched careers (though what I’m doing now is somewhat related to what I was doing before. For example, think along the lines of a teacher who starts working in Ed tech or something). I also took off a few years to be a SAHM, this is my first foray back into workforce, though I obviously would leave that out of the bio :-)

    3. Bananatiel*

      One way to broach it might be to ask the web person if there’s anything you can prepare for them to make adding your bio easier for them– do you need to schedule/provide a headshot? Do you need to write your bio? It at least skips over asking “Can you add my bio to the website now please?” and assumes that it should be up there. If *everyone* is on the website but you I do think you should have been added by now by most office standards.

    4. Rhiiiiiiannnnnnnon*

      Just email the website person and say: Hey my dad noticed I wasn’t on the website yet, and I wondered if we could update it?” Its a super reasonable ask. You should also email them your bio, styled the way the other staff members are, and any other materials they might need (Like a photo or contact info). Just make it super easy for them :) And if they don’t do it within a month, I’d follow up.

  68. Just us chickens*

    People who understand.

    I received a call the other day from a person who said they were told to call us to set up an interview. Granted, I work in education, and academia is a strange animal, but seriously?

    1. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Someone called you to set up an interview for a job you didn’t apply to?
      Dang. My first question would be if I’m the person they meant to call!

  69. Llellayena*

    So I’ve been (obsessively) reading the AAM archives, and noticed once again the recurring theme of badly organized non-profits. I had a bit of a ‘Eureka!’ moment when I realized I have a resource I can share for anyone here who has some control over the non-profit management process. So this is for all you non-profit readers:

    In Princeton, NJ there is a non-profit management 1-evening conference at the end of January called Community Works. This conference offers seminars (I think each participant attends 2) on various topics of non-profit management: everything from grant writing and fundraising to retaining and motivating board members to social media and more. You can google Princeton Community Works for more info. I’ll try to remember to post about it again in October/November when the registration is open for next year. I’ve got an ‘in’ with the planning committee so I’m a decent resource for info, though please try the website first.

  70. Argh!*

    Applying for an internal position, which would get me away from ToxicBoss and away from LoserSupervisee and have NoSupervisee and under MoodyBoss. Today’s challenge: writing a cover letter that sounds sincere.

    1. 30 Years in the Biz*

      Ask a Manager has some ideas and some samples posted! Using the same spirited vibe and basic construction shown in one of the samples, I wrote a cover letter for a recent set of job interviews. One of the interviewers actually told me it was the best he’s ever seen. They offered me the job (which would have been a great match for my skills/experience and very interesting), but unfortunately the pay was a little too low for the level of position. Soon after I accepted a position at another company and it’s been everything I’ve hoped for so far.

  71. Jan Levinson*

    I have a new coworker who is giving me really weird vibes.

    Our jobs don’t overlap, but we work in a very small office (<10 people), so I see him frequently, and his desk is only about 40 feet away from mine. He just started on Monday.

    I just always feel like…he's staring at me. To get to the bathroom and break room, he has to walk past my desk (with my back facing him). 4 or 5 times now, I've heard footsteps coming towards my desk, and then they slow down right as they approach me. I turn around, and there he is, just looking at me. He doesn't try to hide it either, or speed up his walk when I make eye contact with him. This morning, I was copying some papers at the printer (which is in the copier room right next to his desk; his desk is at eye shot from the printer.) I casually glance over to his desk, and again, he is just looking at me – no smile, no expression of any kind. Again, he doesn't look away when I look at him.

    It just strikes me as very odd. The only time I've spoken to him is when I introduced myself to him on Monday, but I've heard him chatting casually with other coworkers, and he doesn't seem like a weird dude at all in conversation. Is this just in my head?

    1. merp*

      Oooh weird. I think if it’s making you uncomfortable (slowing down to look at you??) then it’s not in your head, and could make ask a close coworker or your manager if they seem him doing that/someone above him could talk to him about it.

    2. Four lights*

      It does sound a little odd. When he’s staring at you at your desk try saying “Did you need something, Bob?” Maybe that will get him to move along and cut it out.

        1. Rhiiiiiiannnnnnnon*

          I wouldn’t be cool until I addressed it first. “Hey do you need something? You keep staring at me? Its a little alarming!” If he doesn’t cut it out after that then I’d be more chilly: “Seriously, its bothering me that you keep staring. What’s up?”

    3. INeedANap*

      Is it possible he sees these times as points where he should be saying something? Like, whenever I pass by this one person’s desk, I slow down and try to catch her eye because if she’s free, I’ll stop and chat for a second. If I don’t catch her eye, she’s busy, and I don’t interrupt her and just keep going. He might be seeing these as times where it’s common to say hi or chat, but waiting for you to take the lead on it?

      1. Lilysparrow*

        But he’s not responding when she looks directly at him. If he were trying to catch her eye to say something, he’d say it. Intruding on someone else’s space and expecting them to take the lead isn’t normal conversation.

        He speaks normally with the other co-workers, so he’s perfectly capable of doing so.

    4. Anonybus*

      I have a couple of coworkers who abruptly started doing something very similar about a year ago. In my case, I got the sense that they were trying to annoy or distract me for the LULZ, but they’re also the kind of people who have some kooky PUA-esque ideas about body language, so it has occurred to me that they may be testing out some batshit psycho/social techniques (I guess staring is supposed to be intimidating? I find it more annoying than anything else)

      I don’t know, maybe this guy got his hands on the same type of bad idea.

    5. Batgirl*

      I always find ‘Can I help you?’ cuts that out. If it’s a no then just say ‘okay well you keep slowing down by my desk like you need help. You can just walk by if you don’t’

  72. Peachywithasideofkeen*

    Is it bad I spend 99% of my time outside of my shared office? A few months ago I moved to a new job where a bunch of my old coworkers work. I share an office with a coworker who I did not know previously. We get along fine, but really don’t have anything in common and he is about 20 years older than me, so there isn’t much to chat about aside from “Good morning, how are you?” When I first started, my department was a complete mess from the last person who held my position, so I had a lot of work to do. He was always commenting about how hard I was working compared to the person who was there previously. I was not very talkative throughout the day because I was so focused on my work and getting caught up (and also I just have nothing to chat with him about and am pretty shy in general). Our building doesn’t have a lot of office space and the location of my office is slightly far away from where I spend most of my time. My boss recognizes my office isn’t ideal but there really isn’t anywhere else to put me. It doesn’t really bother me at all, because I really love my job. My boss recently bought me a rolling table that I have been using with my laptop which means I can pretty much work from anywhere in the building now. Since I’ve gotten this table, I’ve been spending increased amounts of time away from my actual desk to the point where I don’t think I was in there more than 10 minutes a day this week (I suppose I should also add that I split my time between two worksites and am only at this particular site 3 days a week). I’m worried my office mate might take my constant absence personally, but it really doesn’t have much to do with him. I spend the majority of my time in the office of two of my friends from my old job. I used to just eat lunch in there and spend a couple hours leaving my laptop in there while I’m doing work in that part of the building, but now sometimes I’m in there all day. We all refer to it as my second office. Should I spend more time at my “real” desk or say something? Am I worrying too much about this?

    1. RandomU...*

      I wouldn’t worry about it. It sounds like the places you work are organic and more convenient. If you did want to say something the next time you’re in your ‘second office’ with your office mate you can breezily say something like “Geez, I’m not even sure why I bothered to set up this space, I never seem to have the chance to sit here… Oh well at least I can’t be the annoying office mate this way” Or something similar to acknowledge or poke fun at the fact that you aren’t ever there.

  73. Elizabeth West*

    Dear employer who rejects me for a job I’m perfectly capable of doing and then keeps reposting it,

    You are looking for a unicorn. You are not going to find one.

    Instead, hire me and MAKE one.

    Love,

    Me

    1. HelpMeImPoor*

      I love this! I feel like many employers are looking for a unicorn employee, I have seen the same job posted on and off for multiple years. It appears they can never fill it. It is a great job, requires experience, a Bachelors and Masters preferred, I even applied for it myself once. The Kicker: the pay is 33k, in Massachusetts of all places. HAHAHA who they expect to take this job I don’t know but the unicorn search continues!

      1. Peaches*

        Haha, seriously! I frequently have recruiters reach out to me on LinkedIn about finance jobs that require long hours and rather difficult work, and pay about $30k/year (although I do live in a city with lower cost of living than Massachusetts, this is still extremely low!) I now work in a customer service/contract specialist role, which is fairly easy and stress free, and make $45k/year (I’ve been here for 4 years). I usually just ignore the LinkedIn messages, but I’d love to respond with, “LOL, you do understand that no decent prospective employee is going to take that sort of job for that salary, right?”

        Another humorous thing is that I also work in an industry where we are occasionally provided the salaries of head custodians at schools. Most of them make about $40k/year, which I would also like to tell these recruiters. (I don’t mean that as a slam on custodians at all, I respect the heck out of them!) But, more just to point out that those sort of jobs require little experience and no college background, but they are looking for someone with at least a Bachelor’s degree at 3+ years experience to pay them chump change.

        1. HelpMeImPoor*

          Peaches you get it! The non profit/ social services field is notorious for this. I am job searching now for something that pays a little better and is more professional (I just finished my Masters) than where I am at, but some of the postings I have seen, good lord! I went to an interview that looked promising but it was all fee for service, so if your clients don’t show up you don’t get paid, hint when working with people with mental illness or homelessness, etc a LOT of them don’t show up. They then told me the reimburse mileage at $8 a week, WHAT who is filling their car up with $8 a week. They offered me the job and I rejected, they wanted to know why. I said I was looking for something different but part of me wanted to be like because you don’t want to pay your people that’s why!

        2. Elizabeth West*

          It’s so annoying; if housing weren’t so damned expensive, I could make better choices. I can’t move anywhere I actually want to be not because food, etc. is expensive but HOUSING. I need to be able to know I can afford it on my own because I’ve had shit luck with roommates.

          I really want to reply to those the same way. Like “ARE YOU KIDDING ME THIS IS A JOKE RIGHT”

      2. Elizabeth West*

        That’s insane.

        I saw one today demanding 20 years of experience in admin/project management and it was only paying $15-20 an hour. 20 years of experience in project management would not even be an hourly position!

        1. Gumby*

          My sister keeps finding jobs that pay less than the starting wage at In ‘n’ Out that want college degrees, etc. When you are paying less than working fast food then perhaps you should cool it on the “requirements,” hmmm?

        2. Need a better name*

          Well, if they want a contractor rather than an employee, that would probably be stated as an hourly rate.
          The consulting firm from which I retired pays its lowest level people the equivalent of at least $50/hour; actual project managers, considerably more. And that rate is from five years ago, so factor that in, too.

  74. Caterpie*

    Is it acceptable to smell like sunscreen at work? Now that the weather is getting nicer in my city I’d like to start walking outside during my lunch breaks. I have a family history of skin cancer so protecting my skin from the sun is important to me and getting outside for a bit in the daytime really helps my productivity. The walking paths nearby are unfortunately not shaded the whole way.

    However, I feel like sunscreen can smell a bit strongly and I wouldn’t want to trigger migraines for anyone (is the scent of sunscreen a trigger for migraines or allergies?) or have it be distracting. Thanks for advice!

    1. Minerva McGonagall*

      I’ve found that some Neutrogena sunscreens aren’t as smelly! That plus a hat and maybe a lighter long sleeve shirt.

      1. Peaches*

        I was also going to suggest Neutrogena. It has a much more mild scent than most sunscreens!

    2. Dust Bunny*

      I think it depends on what the sunscreen smells like and how strong it is, and what your office fragrance culture is in general. My problem with sunscreens is that a lot of them smell like coconut, which is one of the few specific scents that turns my stomach (even though I love it as a food. Coconut and patchouli). But I also work in an office where we’re not supposed to wear a lot of makeup or lotion (antique documents). So I guess . . . ask if there is a fragrance policy? Or if anyone would mind?

      Or just wash it off when you came back from lunch.

    3. Peachywithasideofkeen*

      I don’t think it would be a problem unless someone brings it up. You can always rinse it off when you are done with your walk!

    4. Sales but not sales*

      I think the only reaction to sunscreen smells would be people asking why you smell like sunscreen. If someone does mention the smell in a negative way, there are less smelly sunscreens you can buy from Asia.

      1. Lepidoptera*

        Yes, stalk the Asian beauty subr3ddit and similar sites. I currently have Biore Aqua Rich Watery Essence in my desk, and apply it before my lunch walks. There’s a tiny hint of citrus, and I have to be holding it right to my nose to smell it.

        1. Autumnheart*

          I really like that product. It’s very light and absorbs completely, doesn’t clog my persnickety pores, and is highly effective.

    5. anon moose, anon mouse*

      I wouldn’t worry about it. Protect your skin. I have never once encountered anyone* so triggered by the scent of sunscreen that they couldn’t be around it. Sunscreen is there to protect you, so you have every right to wear it. It’s not something you don’t need to wear, like perfume.

      *I’m sure someone will now come tell me that they were once triggered by sunscreen, though.

      1. WrenF*

        Sadly, true!

        Not me but my mom. When my son was a preschooler/toddler and we basically *lived* at the parks and nature centers, she remarked on how I smelled of sunscreen All.The.Time.

        I think I finally started saying, “Right?”

    6. NotaPirate*

      I got the coolest present last year. It was from REI I think but I’ve seen them on amazon and the like too. They are sunsleeves that go from wrists to shoulder and are UV blocking. I slide them on for commuting and slide off when I reach work. No need for morning sunscreen, no need to change outfits in a bathroom. Pair with a floppy hat and you’re good to go.

      They have all sorts of UV blocking shirts and the like now too, I have a longsleeve pullover for kayaking thats SPF 50 rating.

      1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

        I am also a fan of UV-blocking clothing! I have a couple of long-sleeve UV-blocking shirts from REI that I wear as jackets when out walking so as to not need sunscreen. I find it much easier to remember to put on a jacket than it is to remember to put on sunscreen, with the added bonus that I don’t get sunscreen in my eyes. (I also have a wide-brimmed sunhat.)

        Coolibar is also a good company to look at for UV-blocking clothes. I have a great swim outfit from them that gets a lot of use in the summer.

        I’m thinking of getting one of those UV sleeves to keep in my car for sun protection while driving.

    8. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I am grateful that you’re thinking about this. I’ve switched to a product from the dermatologist’s office so I’m paying through the nose… but so far I’m not suffering from migraines from it. So yes there is an unscented pot at the end of this rainbow.
      But before you go all-out looking for an unscented sunscreen, ask around your office first — those are the people who are going to be around you most. Do THEY have an issue with scent-triggered migraines or flavors they find icky? You have a medical need to use sunscreen, so you’re kind to look for a compromise in advance.
      Thanks and good luck!

    9. Lilysparrow*

      Yes, it’s fine.

      You don’t mention anything about your office having a fragrance-free policy. If it doesn’t, then go ahead and protect your own health in the way that’s most feasible and convenient for you. No need to tie yourself in knots shopping for expensive imported products. And there’s no need to go around asking invasive personal questions about your co-workers possible medical issues.

      You don’t need anybody else’s permission to avoid cancer, for heaven’s sake.

      If somebody had an issue with the fragrance, they can advocate for their own health in the way that works best for them. Which might not include being willing to discuss their medical needs with you.

      Don’t borrow trouble. Just put on the sunscreen.

    10. ContemporaryIssued*

      A lot of pharmacy sunscreens don’t have a scent. Try Cerave or La Roche Posay sunscreens.

  75. merp*

    Y’all, I got the job!! One question for folks, my new office is much more business casual than my current casual office. A few of my tops are cotton but seem nice to me, not t-shirts or anything. But does business casual require non-cotton tops?

    I know this is a know-your-office thing and I’ll play it safe with things that are definitely nice for the first bit until I figure that out, but wanted thoughts here as well if anyone has them.

    1. Fortitude Jones*

      I wear cotton tops all the time at my business casual office, but again, the norms may be different depending on the field you’re in. Pay attention to what your peers are wearing when you start and then follow their lead.

      1. merp*

        Just… I don’t know how to describe them really, but I have a few button downs and blouses things that simply aren’t the same kind of material that you usually see worn with slacks. Softer, less formal, but perhaps with slacks could look dressy.

        My lack of knowledge about fabric names is probably not helping this conversation, I’m sorry, haha.

        1. Autumnheart*

          I think the description you’re looking for is “knit”. And yeah, knit tops run the gamut from dressy to beachwear.

          I would say that a business casual environment doesn’t require non-cotton tops. The style of the top is more important than the fabric, and there are tons of dress shirts and blouses and tops made of cotton and other knit fabrics. One thing my employer did was to send out a “lookbook” of what is and isn’t part of the dress code, to convey a sense of the level of formality they were looking for without having to specify “yes” or “no” to a particular type of clothing or shoe.

          At my work, dressy jeans + nice top with optional blazer is ubiquitous, as are khakis, polos, nice dress pants and dress skirts, even suits.

    3. CheeryO*

      I know what you mean. I think cotton button downs are always fine unless your office is super conservative. As far as other tops go, it’s more about the fit and structure. If you can throw a blazer or cardigan over it and look polished, you’re probably fine. If it looks weird, it’s probably too casual. I think you’ll be fine as long as you play it safe for a few days!

      1. merp*

        The blazer rule makes so much sense and I’ve never thought of it that way, thank you!

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      It is so totally office dependent. Just in this building alone it varies. Engineers wear polos and jeans –sometimes a cotton knit shirt under a sweater or blazer. Marketing & training tend to dress up more, but still polos and other heavy cotton knit shirts are not uncommon. I’d avoid graphic tees and anything with slogans or advertising…at least until they give you something with the new company’s logo on it.
      Congrats on the new gig!

  76. Fortitude Jones*

    Negotiation success story:

    So I was offered a job verbally (and in writing via email) on April 8th after four months of serious job searching (yay!). The opportunity is in proposal development in the software industry, and it’s a newly created role that I get to help define, which is awesome. The best part of this situation is what I was able to negotiate. This is a lateral move for me, but I was able to get a 26% increase from my current position, taking my base salary to $70,000 a year! They wanted to give me $59,000 as my base, but I had another job offer for $80,000 and asked if they could match it. They couldn’t quite get my base that high, so they settled on 70 (75 is the top of their range), but with my quarterly bonus incentives factored in, I will be making $82,000 if I meet all of my performance objectives and my department performs up to expectations. To put this into perspective, only nine years ago, I was making $8 an hour; eight years ago, I made $15.02 an hour; and just a year and a half ago, I was making a little less than $53k a year at a much larger company than the one I currently work at (and the one I’m moving too). I’m a journalism grad who never imagined I’d make this kind of money in my life (the average salary for a journalist is $39,571 according to Payscale), so I’m ecstatic! Oh – and I’m a black woman in my early thirties (my 32nd birthday is next week) who has been historically underpaid in almost all of my positions relative to my peers except for my current position (we’re all underpaid for our roles and I’m making slightly more than a coworker who has many more years of professional work experience than I do because I made more than her at my prior company and received a slight salary bump six months after I started). Now I’m finally being paid fairly thanks to everything I learned from reading this site on how to research market rates and negotiate.

    I was also able to negotiate five extra vacation days, so now I have 17 vacation days instead of 12. My benefits at the new company will be better than the ones at my current company, and I’ll be paying almost $123 less a month for my new benefits. My new company also has a generous tuition reimbursement plan for people pursuing graduate degrees ($7500 a year) and we have paid parental leave up to four weeks at 100% of our base salary.

    I’ve been reading this site for about five years now, and I just want to thank Alison so much for everything she does (and I did via email). Her advice has given me the confidence to just ask for what I want, and I did and got it (seriously, my negotiation was super straightforward and only took an hour)! The approval process for my hiring ended up taking much longer than I would have wanted it to, but it came, and everyone seems thrilled to have me come on board in the next two weeks, so I couldn’t be happier right now.

    One more week left at the old job!!!

    1. Librarian interview*

      Wow, huge congratulations to you!!! What a great birthday present :)

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Thank you so much! I said the same thing – this is probably the best birthday gift I’ve ever received, lol.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Thank you! I almost cried when I got the official offer letter this past Sunday. I’ve come so far in less than a decade, and I can’t believe this is my life right now.

        1. WrenF*

          This is such a wonderful success story! Thank you for sharing, and major congratulations!

  77. Mbarr*

    Here’s a fun/awkward story to share! 1.5 months ago, I gave notice to my old company. I promptly threw out my back (probable herniated disc/pinched nerves). Two weeks later, I started New Job. I’m still recuperating, so I’m gimping around with a cane. It’s a small office, so I’ve been making conversation with people, letting them know I’m healing from an injury etc. I’m making jokes about it all, and people are laughing with me.

    Well, apparently I missed telling some people about my injury. When I encountered a coworker on the way to the washroom, this interaction happened:
    Me: I’ll race you!
    Coworker: Forgive me if I don’t laugh. I don’t know what your disability is, but I don’t think people are being very respectful.

    Poor dude thought our coworkers were being inappropriate, not realizing that *I* was the one instigating the jokes. (E.g. My team is calling me Speed Racer, mimicking my limp – claiming it’s going to the team’s gangsta walk, jokingly yelling at me to move faster, etc.) I was embarrassed and hastened to assure him that no, we’re not working with jerks.

    1. Ali G*

      Aw! That guy is awesome! I’m glad you were able to let him know he doesn’t have to give them all a talking too :)

  78. Smidgen*

    I am traveling for business to India – tech company so my company’s dress code is pretty casual – and am looking for any recommendations regarding clothing, etc, for day to day business meetings and in particular for a semi-formal to formal event. I am female but tend to dress gender neutrally.

    Any other recommendations regarding business travel to India would be appreciated too, and I am doing a hefty amount of googling as well. If it helps, I’ll be in the same area of the country that Mumbai is in.

    1. The Rain In Spain*

      I would recommend you dress fairly modestly- no major cleavage or short-cut dresses. Regular western attire should be acceptable for regular work and any formal events.

      Avoid tap water at all costs- make sure bottled beverages are sealed, don’t eat salad/precut fruit/etc, avoid ice in beverages, etc. You’ll probably be fine at high-end hotels/restaurants, but food poisoning is no fun, esp for a business trip!

      Generally I would recommend you avoid traveling alone in taxis/etc to the extent it’s possible.

      1. Boomerang Girl*

        I would also recommend brushing your teeth with bottled water.
        It will be VERY hot in India. I would recommend skirt/pant and top, cotton or linen weave, rather than anything knit or synthetic. When you get there are see how people are dressed, you may want to buy a local tunic (kurthi) because there is a reason people locally where such clothes.

        For a semi formal event, a dress is good or a dressy pant suit if you prefer. If you’re daring, get a nice salwar kameez locally.

    2. Auntie Social*

      Look online for photos of “capsule travel wardrobe India”. Amazing, wear-anywhere clothes, most of which you already have. It’s my travel bible.

  79. MikeeBeth*

    I currently work part time at a public library and part time at a fast casual restaurant. I love my library and hate the restaurant. I have my MSLS, and want to work full time at the public library. What I’ve run into, though, is that since I’m a librarian and the position I currently hold requires an MSLS, the full time positions that have been open have been not MSLS required and thus pay much less to where it doesn’t make sense to apply.

    Recently a full time position opened up at an academic library where I worked as a graduate assistant doing the job I used to do. I liked working there when I did, but I like working here at the public library more and would rather get full time here. However, there doesn’t seem to be full time opportunity here. I’ve only been here for a year though and I was only at my previous job for a year as well. Should I talk to my boss at the public library and let her know I’m interested in full time work? (I did ask about the pay for the full time position that was open so she has an idea) Should I just apply for the full time job and take it if it’s offered? I’m very torn and frustrated.

    1. acctnt*

      In my experience in a completely different field, I would say it wouldn’t hurt to apply to the full time position and see what happens, and maybe use that as leverage for your current part time position. You could let them know that you have an offer to be paid x and have no choice but to move if you want to support yourself and your career. I did that and miraculously my current job found some more money and more responsibilities so I was able to stay and be more fulfilled in my position!

    2. Four lights*

      If you want to do this full time, I think it would be worth it to do both. You can ask your current boss about full time work, to get a feel for if that would be possible and if so when.

      And I think it doesn’t hurt to apply. I always say you don’t have to make a decision until/if you get an offer.

    3. Semaj*

      Definitely tell your boss that you’re looking for full time work that will utilize your degree and you’d like to stay where you are. Try not to be discouraged though, because it’s not too surprising for no FT openings to come up in the past year.

      Only you can decide if you should apply for FT work outside your current org, try talking with your boss first and seeing how it goes.

      You don’t need me to tell you that librarianship is a highly competitive, over-saturated field. Keep your eye out for opportunities and your chin up, something will materialize.

    4. Librarian interview*

      You should apply to the full-time academic position. I live by: “Just because you apply, doesn’t mean you will get an interview. Just because you got an interview, doesn’t mean you’ll get a job offer. Just because you got a job offer, it doesn’t mean you’ll take it.” Who knows, maybe if you get an interview, you’ll learn something about the role that makes it really appealing (or really off-putting).

    5. Drago Cucina*

      Talk to your supervisor/director. Depending on your system it may be easier to move you into a full time position that requires a library degree if you are full time. You may also learn that there will be no budget/slots available to do that. Some systems are very rigid. Others have a lot of flexibility, but no money.

      What aspect of the public library do you like the best? While you know the academic library from your grad assistant days, the feel and experience may be different as an employee. I know academic librarians doing great outreach work in their school communities.

      1. MikeeBeth*

        The full-time academic opening is essentially the same job as I had as a graduate assistant. A big part of the difference is that I prefer the culture here at the public library over the culture at the academic library. When I left, this particular university was going through financial difficulties and the department I worked with (I wasn’t in that department but worked in proximity with them more than the department I actually belonged to) had some drama going on. At my current job we don’t have any of that going on. It wasn’t horrible, but here I feel like I’ve found my people.

        Also I guess I’m not sure exactly what to say to my supervisor when I ask either. And writing a cover letter for a job you used to have is really weird!

  80. What’s with Today, today?*

    My co-worker just came in to ask our Office Manager and I if we currently have yeast infections (all women). She then went into detail about her raging yeast infection. I mean, it’s Friday, right?

    2. What’s with Today, today?*

      Clarification: apparently she thought maybe we had passed this yeast infection around the office through the shared women’s bathroom. She’s gonna buy Lysol.

      2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        … what part of her anatomy is she putting on the toilet seat?! o_o

      3. Anonish*

        I would be extremely worried about what she’s doing in the bathroom if she thinks that’s even remotely possible.

      4. Natalie*

        Weird trivia – Lysol used to make “personal care” products (like douches). For whatever reason that’s what I thought of before disinfectant cleaner and was really side-eyeing your coworker.

    4. Nana*

      No, no, no…ya don’t get yeast from the toilet seat. Just VD and/or pregnant. [Hey, I’m old…]

  81. Frustrated*

    My boss told me should would die before I got a promotion, and separately told a coworker that my position was going nowhere and my old boss did a real disservice to me for hiring me for this position. I’m looking for new jobs and am hoping one comes along quickly. My company does exit interviews, should I bring up her negative comments as part of the reason I’m leaving or just say something like it is time for me to move on? I’m not wanting to burn any bridges but I’m not the only one in the finance dept wanting to leave because of her management style (this comment, among many others, frequent eye-rolling when we ask questions, mean comments, etc) so I feel like upper management should know and understand that this is part of the reason I’m going. Or am I overreacting?

    1. Four lights*

      Did your boss say that to your face? I’d be very tempted to say matter of – factly, without emotion, “Well, I was looking to advance my career and Boss said she would die before I got a promotion, so I figured it was time to move on.”

    2. Mr. Tyzik*

      She would DIE before promoting you? And she told you this?!?

      Yes, mention this in the exit interview. This is a bridge that has already fallen – no need to worry about burning it.

      1. Autumnheart*

        I took it as, “This company is so bad at promoting, Boss would die [of old age?] before OP got promoted.” Which is certainly bad enough and worth exploring other jobs, because who wants to hit a dead end? But if Boss really *did* mean “You’ll get promoted over my dead body!” then I’d be putting my job search into overdrive.

    3. Grace*

      I don’t think I would have been able to stop myself from deadpanning ‘Sounds good, we can make that work.’ Like, I don’t think issuing death threats to a boss is in any way acceptable. But. When someone says something like that I don’t think I would be able to keep a straight face unless I played it completely straight.

    4. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Absolutely mention that at the exit interview! Holy smokes, that would make anyone start job-hunting.

    5. The New Wanderer*

      If you won’t need her as a reference (which sounds likely), you should definitely report those comments and her general negative treatment of her team.

      Good luck getting out!

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Absolutely. She’s flat out telling you to your face that she’s stonewalling your advancement at this company because she doesn’t agree with your previous manager’s hiring practices, which has nothing to do with you. If she believed your role was pointless, she should have started assigning you work she believed added value to the team. If she hasn’t, that’s her failing, not yours or your prior boss’s. HR needs to know your current manager is spiteful and not capable of being objective in performing her duties.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          I don’t read it as spiteful, more that the boss is frustrated that she can’t promote Frustrated. (Heh, I see what that looks like now.) I think Frustrated AND her boss should both get the eff out.

    6. RandomU...*

      I’m reading your bosses comments as she’s as frustrated as you are for lack of advancement opportunities for you.

      Let me explain a possible interpretation of the comments:
      I had an employee who was really good, bright, and was getting ready for the next step in his career. We had to have a frank talk about his prospects at our office (small satellite office of a medium sized company). I asked what he wanted to do/what job he wanted and he said that he wanted my job. I asked him if was going to be ok waiting for me to die, in order to get the chair I was sitting in. It was blunt, but he did realize that the only way he was going to advance was for me to vacate the position. We talked more and eventually I found him a position in another office with more advancement opportunity, which I’m happy to report he’s taken advantage of.

      I literally had no advancement opportunities for him and it wasn’t likely that there would be any for many years. So yes, I could see my comments being taken out of context. The one about the being a disservice to hire you could be taken in both ways… either old boss shouldn’t have hired you because there wasn’t any opportunities or that you weren’t good in the job. I read it as your old boss hired you to a position that was a dead end and that was the disservice to you.

      It’s a little hard to say in the context of your post, not knowing the background and how your boss is otherwise.

    7. foolofgrace*

      Keep in mind that exit interviews are shared with your manager, so why burn a bridge for something that will be of zero benefit to you? People often think HR is going to care about what exit interviews reveal, but there’s little they can do about any of it. This is my experience from working in HR for a short time.

      1. AnonForToday*

        It depends.

        At my place of work it is very common for grandbosses’ hands to be somewhat tied because bad behavior goes on for years because reports will never document (even informally report) bad behavior.

        1. AnonForToday*

          Even to the point of flat out illegal behavior not being reported on exit interviews because of fear of “burning bridges”

          Ugh. I was recently “promoted” to management and watching my boss deal with this and trying really hard to get the lay of the land in my new department and start DOCUMENTING everything I can so we can deal with problems as they arise and not when things are beyond crisis level.

  82. Librarian interview*

    I have an on-campus interview for a faculty librarian position next week. I feel pretty prepared, but I do have to put together my teaching presentation this weekend. I never thought I would get so far into a librarian job interview since I graduated with my MLIS in 2012 and never worked as a librarian. At this point, I just want to do well!

    4. Spider*

      Ooh, I just wrote some basic advice on teaching demonstrations for librarian candidates upthread! In case it helps you in any way, here’s the c&p —
      *********
      If your in-person interviews involve a teaching demonstration, here are some tips:

      A) Make sure you follow the teaching prompt you were given! (I’ve seen so many candidates fail to do this, and it’s a huge mark against them.)

      B) Don’t stick only to Powerpoint, but actively use the hiring library’s website and OPAC and any other online resources like libguides during your presentation — in other words, demonstrate how you navigate these sources and perform searches in real-time, not through screenshots on a Powerpoint slide.

      C) Use the hiring institution’s resources as much as you can in your presentation, not your current institution’s. (For example, say your instruction prompt involves using digital collections of photographs to a History 101 class here at XXXX College — use XXXX College’s digital collections of photographs, not your current library’s!)

      Tying into (C) but also more generally: really do your research on the position and the hiring institution before your interview! Familiarize yourself with their library’s website, what collections they have, and how those collections tie into the institution’s history and current curriculum. This doesn’t just show your enthusiasm for working at XXXX College, it demonstrates your own research skills as a librarian! (This probably sounds so obvious it shouldn’t need to be said, but I’ve seen many candidates give canned, generic presentations they could give at any library anywhere. This is not a good look!)

      Above all else, good luck to you, too!! :)

      1. Librarian interview*

        This is so fantastic, thank you! I didn’t think about using the library’s website in my presentation, but I can incorporate them easily. I don’t have access to their databases to practice with, so I’m going to be using mostly free databases (medical librarian position).

        1. ModernHypatia*

          Ask them if you can get a guest login for their databases for your presentation – not every place can do this, but the places I’ve interviewed (as a librarian for) and asked were all glad to do it if they could.

          The wording I used was something along the lines of “I’d love to incorporate a search of X database into my presentation, but I don’t have access on my own – is there a chance I could get a temporary login until the interview day?”

  83. Teapot Painter*

    So I work with a secretary to the CEO. It’s her job to input notes and numbers that I give her and produce contracts for the CEO. Fairly straightforward, not a rocket science thing. She also has to attach the right documents from a folder to emails. Again, not hard.

    Problem is, it seems to be SO DIFFICULT for her. I don’t expect people to have the industry knowledge that I do. But I don’t understand how hard it is to read a piece of paper, read a number, input said number into the system, and write the notes the way they are written. She gets so confused so easily, and it is beyond frustrating for me!!!! I try to see where she gets mixed up and explain it to her in a way that she understands. The problem is that she doesn’t even know how she gets confused. And I am SO SICK OF IT. She has been with the company for much longer than I have, so she performs well enough. But I get so frustrated with her and I don’t know how not to. She will say things like “It’s so confusing and difficult and I don’t know why I get so confused…” and I want to scream “No, Amelia, it is NOT. It’s not difficult at all. And I don’t know why you get confused either so I can’t help you!!!”

    Anyone else have similar issues? How did you deal with them?

    1. LaDeeDa*

      Can you type it out Step 1 and Step 2 with screenshots if needed?
      Tell her to do it exactly in that order, she is likely skipping all around and having trouble focusing on the right line/number and place….

    2. The Rain In Spain*

      I would recommend creating a step-by-step guide (with screenshots/examples if possible) so that she can refer to that each time she needs to do it. I’ve created these both for myself (for tasks I rarely d0) and others (for tasks I’ve been able to delegate) and all parties seem to find them helpful!

    3. Teapot Painter*

      it’s not a matter of knowing how to do the inputting – she knows how. It’s that often the wrong things get inputted from my notes, or if the contract needs to be edited, she has a really hard time editing it. She also will not think to check for a document in another adjacent folder. It’s always something, and it would often be faster for me to do her work for her than to tell her how to do it. (insert facepalm emoji)

      1. Gloucesterina*

        I’m trying to visualize the actual process. Is it fair to say that it involves taking a paper document with content in different fields, and typing (transcribing) the same content into the corresponding fields in an computer system of some kind? And to pull up the correct corresponding field on the computer, one has to type in a number that’s on the paper document?

        And what, ideally, would be the process for confirming that one has typed in the correct number in order to pull up the correct field?

        1. LaDeeDa*

          I am having a hard time understanding what it is too. My take is that OP is providing her with notes, and she is supposed to figure out what to input from those notes. It could be she doesn’t understand the note-taking style, or what is important — that might be solved by the OP highlighting the things that should be entered, or giving the person a better understanding of the whole process so she can figure out what is important.
          As far as the editing, either she doesn’t know how to edit the document or she doesn’t know what/why something should be edited.
          All of this sounds like a difference in communication styles and her not understanding the big picture. If she doesn’t understand the big picture, I am not sure how she could know what to edit or what to take out of someone else’s notes.

          1. Teapot Painter*

            I type the number of the item we need, the specific size of the item, and the type of the item.

            I.E.

            (4) 4″ diameter Oranges
            (2) medium Avocados
            (5) Large Strawberries

            And then something like “Place Avocados in the bowl first, then put the avocadoes, and top off with strawberries.”

            All she has to do is type the number of each item, find that item in the corresponding size. Then type the description in another box.

            That gets entered in fine. But then the client will come back and say “Can I have different contracts instead? One with just oranges and strawberries, one with just avocadoes, and one with Oranges, avocadoes, and blueberries instead of strawberries?”

            That is where the confusion starts. Splitting it up into different things, and then adding 1 more thing. I agree it’s a communication style, but I also think that it’s not all that difficult to just add another set of fields for 3 different groups of fruit. And sometimes she understands, but sometimes she doesn’t. I have yet to figure out what it is that is throwing her off.

            1. LaDeeDa*

              That is a really good explanation and visual of what you are dealing with. It is hard to fix a problem if she can’t clearly communicate why that is hard for.

            2. Elizabeth West*

              One of my dyscalculia issues is recognizing patterns (could never ever learn my key signatures in music school) and problems with working memory. A thing that helps me is procedural documents. I follow them until something is rote, but I still might have to check back from time to time depending on the task. Your description vaguely pinged me; maybe she’s got some difficulty with this.

              Whether that’s the case or not, I’m with Autumnheart below; she does need to talk to her boss about how they can work with or around it. Or the CEO needs to talk to her.

              1. Elizabeth West*

                It could also be what I call a struggle loop–you make a mistake, then you feel anxious about it, and you keep making mistakes because now you’re anxious about making mistakes.

                1. Kat in VA*

                  OMG I love this term. I’m dealing with a huge case of this right now, and it’s doubly stressful because I’m dealing with things like EXIM and ITAR and security clearance paperwork and that kind of stuff where if you screw it up, it’s A Very Big Deal indeed and can have Very Big Consequences.

                  STRUGGLE LOOP. PERFECT.

            3. Grapey*

              Sounds like she wants the input of “(number) (size) (object) (description)” which you start off with fine. (besides saying avocados twice in the directions)

              So putting myself in her shoes, I’d ask
              1) What is the updated description for the new contracts? “top off with strawberries” doesn’t work for the two new contracts that don’t have strawberries. Do they still want the oranges/strawberry order to be topped with strawberries?
              2) What are the numbers for the objects in the new contracts?
              3) What are the sizes of the objects in the new contracts?

              Are you the only person she has to interface with, like should she remember that the avocados are always medium for this customer or does she have to deal with transcribing 20 other orders where avocados are all different sizes?

              Splitting things and adding line items has the potential to be extremely difficult, coming from someone with a background in data management and batch tracking.

    4. Autumnheart*

      Don’t explain, don’t help her, let her flounder, don’t listen to her complain. She should know how to do her job by now without help. If she can’t figure it out, she should talk to her boss about training. But she’s engaging in massive learned helplessness and depending on everyone to hold her hand, which is ridiculous. Let her fail if she can’t do it.

      1. Teapot Painter*

        I wish it was that easy. The CEO often asks me to work with her to get it done.

          1. valentine*

            One with just oranges and strawberries, one with just avocadoes, and one with Oranges, avocadoes, and blueberries instead of strawberries?
            Is this correct?:
            1: (4) 4″ diameter Oranges (5) Large Strawberries (place oranges; top with strawberries)
            2: (2) medium Avocados
            3: (4) 4″ diameter Oranges (2) medium Avocados (#) Large Blueberries (place oranges, then avocados; top with blueberries)

            Is she updating your notes, then entering the info? If I tried to make the changes in my head, it’d drive me up the wall. Options: (1) You enter the info. (2) You rewrite the steps to reflect each change. She enters the info.

  84. Windchime*

    I am starting to feel the “3-year itch” at my current job. The commute is awful, but otherwise, I love my job. The people are really nice, the pay is pretty good and the benefits are really good. I work from home one day per week (the commute is fine that day :)). Another day or two working from home would be ideal; I think I could stick it out if I only had to drive to town 2-3 days a week. I’ve run it past my manager; she says it’s a no-go even though a department right next to us (still in IT) has a person who works 100% remote in a state halfway across the country.

    A lead in my area says that the 1-day work from home restriction may be relaxed after this Big Project is over (in 2 years or so). That’s good news, except I’m not sure that I can stick it out that long. I’ve started snooping around for other remote-work jobs, but honestly, I really like this job and I feel like I’m too old (late 50’s) to start another new job. I think I could get a new job; I just don’t feel like I want to.

    So……..what do I do? Do I just stick it out for another couple of years, or do I keep looking around?

    1. Four lights*

      As someone who has changed jobs a bit, I agree that it is more work to start at a new job, even if you already know most of what you’re doing. But maybe it’ll be worth it.

      I don’t think late 50s is too old to start a new job. I would say, keep looking at your leisure. Just because you do, or you interview doesn’t mean you have to leave. Who knows, maybe you’ll find something that gets you excited enough to make a change.

    2. Lynne879*

      Looking around never hurts. Even if you apply to a job, get an interview and get an offer you can always turn it down. You don’t HAVE to look if you don’t want too, but it also doesn’t hurt.

      That said, if a company promises something will get better, always assume it will never fall through.

    3. A Simple Narwhal*

      Could you suggest trying the 2-3 days at home on a trial basis for a month or two? Alison has said bosses are usually more likely to agree to a test drive than an outright change.

      But otherwise if the commute is really wearing on you, I’d look to move on – sticking around for another two years on the chance that things might change seems like too big of a gamble.

      I also don’t know your relationship with your boss – if she knew you were considering leaving over this would that matter to her? And definitely not in a threatening “I’ll quit if you don’t give me what I want’ way, more in a “the commute/inability to work remotely more frequently is making me reconsider my ability to remain in this job”. Or maybe ask if it’s true that the restriction might be lifted after the Big Project is over – if you think you could tough it out for two more years for a guaranteed change, that might be worth discussing (but get it in writing if she agrees!).

      Either way it can’t hurt to look around – you might find a job you like just as much with a better commute! Or maybe you find that the commute is worth it to stay in a job you like. That way you know you are choosing to stay where you are and aren’t stuck wondering if something better is out there.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Either way it can’t hurt to look around – you might find a job you like just as much with a better commute! Or maybe you find that the commute is worth it to stay in a job you like. That way you know you are choosing to stay where you are and aren’t stuck wondering if something better is out there.

        All of this. Fully remote jobs are out there for IT people – just keep looking, Windchime. You could land on something even better than what you have. I couldn’t live with the “what if?” myself.

    4. Not A Manager*

      “Maybe could change in maybe two years” isn’t something to rely on.

    5. foolofgrace*

      I’m about to start a new job at 63. I feel your trepidation. I wish I were ensconced somewhere familiar.

      1. Windchime*

        Yeah, I get it. I mean, I’m usually pretty lucky and haven’t had too much trouble getting jobs (right place, right time and all that) but it’s just a lot of work to get out there and look. But at the same time, how nice would it be to sleep in till 6:30 every morning instead of getting up at 4:30? How nice would it be to watch prime time TV when it happens instead of the next day because have to be in bed before 9? :)

  85. Dragoning*

    I think one of my coworkers is really (starting to?) dislike me, and I’m not sure what I can do about it. We work fairly closely together, in the same role–she’s senior to me and actually did the bulk of my job-shadow training when I started. So I definitely do ask her opinion and advice on things. Additionally, our cubes are neighbors, so we make conversation sometimes–I guess now that I think about it maybe most of it comes from me, but I’m pretty much an introvert so it’s not like I talk all day long or anything.

    She’s also in charge of our culture/community team thing that organizes the team-bonding type events, and many of them are potlucks. I am allergic to black pepper. She knows this. Everyone knows this. Nonetheless, no one ever brings anything I can eat to these things. Last time I brought the issue up with her, maybe to send a reminder beforehand? She told me she didn’t care if I brought me own lunch, that would be fine.

    A bit insulting for a team pot-luck thing. No one ever said this when we had a vegetarian coworker. We made sure she had food.

    She also seems to try to encourage me to job hunt–like a lot. And I’m not in the greatest position as a contractor, but I don’t need her giving me random suggestions that she doesn’t know anything about, and it’s weird that she does. Maybe she’s bad at small talk? I know I am. But it makes me feel like she wants to be rid of me.

    Maybe I’m just feeling sore because earlier this week we were talking (with another coworker!) about someone’s 30th anniversary, and being one of the only people in the department in my twenties, mentioned that she’d been working here longer than I’d been alive, and she made some comment about how “maybe [I] was too young to be working,” and when I said I had to pay rent somehow, she was like “Well you keep saying weird things so I’m just saying them back now.”

    And, IDK, that read as harsh to me?

    Maybe I’m overthinking it?

    1. Autumnheart*

      Why can’t you bring a dish of something you can eat, if it’s a potluck?

      1. Autumnheart*

        But apart from that, she sounds like a jerk. But unless she has authority over you somehow, I’d chalk it up to “This coworker is a jerk” and avoid engaging with her when that’s possible. If she’s saying jerky things like that in front of other people, I’d make sure to let the inappropriateness hang in the air as uncomfortably as possible. She’s making herself look bad here, not you.

      2. Dragoning*

        I can, I’m just not much of a cook and I don’t know how to make much of anything that gets served of potlucks and would be able to reheat well or sit until lunch time at work…I usually bring something pre-made or just get the forks and such.

        1. Blue Eagle*

          Wait a minute, you don’t bring anything to the potluck other than forks. You mention something pre-made – are you talking something like chips?

          If you don’t go out of your way to bring something nice to the potluck and are mostly a free-rider on what other people bring, then I kind of understand their not going out of their way to make something you can eat. It annoys me when folks who regularly bring chips (or some other minimal item) are the ones who fill up on all the good food that others regularly bring.

          1. Dragoning*

            I can’t cook; I don’t know what I’m supposed to bring. This isn’t an uncommon problem?

            In fairness–I’m also not eating anything they make, because they can’t be bothered to make anything I can eat. I’m not free-riding on anything. I’m just sort of sitting there in a corner with a mostly-empty or completely empty plate, trying to smile when people ask me why I’m not eating (again), and when I explain, they all go, “oh.”

            It’s not usually chips. I got like, dinner rolls from a bakery once, things like that. I’m trying to participate. Plenty of others don’t even do that.

            1. Elizabeth West*

              Forgive me, but I guess I don’t understand why you are sitting there with an empty plate.

              If she and others are okay with you bringing your own lunch, may I suggest you actually do that? They know you have an allergy; it’s not like they would think it’s weird. They may feel like you sitting there with an empty plate is a rebuke to them, and it could be contributing to their side-eye.

              Just bring your own food!

              1. Dragoning*

                Because that was suggested after the last one, and frankly, again, since I can’t cook, my lunch at work is usually like…instant ramen or pre-made soup or something that considering the location of the events, I can’t actually bring there without spilling everything.

            2. Tortoise*

              There are lots of things you can bring that don’t involve cooking. Make a fruit salad. Buy a fruit salad.

          2. foolofgrace*

            This. And everybody started out “not knowing how to cook.” Get a cookbook from the library, make it a research project and then, with shopping for groceries and following the recipe, make it an adventure. You really have to standing telling other people how to cook (“no pepper”) if you’re not willing to at least try it yourself.

            1. Dragoning*

              I’m not telling anyone what to do. But I feel like I’m allowed to be frustrated?

              Apparently I am not.

              I actually asked here once on “What to bring to potlucks when you can’t really cook” and people SUGGESTED things like what I am bringing, but apparently that is still not good enough?

              1. Lilysparrow*

                1) When you asked about stuff to bring to a potluck, I don’t recall it including the important info that you are accommodating an allergy and can’t eat any of the other dishes. Of course that’s going to change the type of suggestions you get, because the normal thing to do is make sure you have an actual meal for yourself.

                2) You included the potluck stuff in the context of a question about relationships with this co-worker and the team generally. So people are looking at changes you could make to improve those dynamics.

                Of course you’re allowed to be frustrated, but if you ask for help solving a problem, that is what people are going to offer.

                If you just want to vent, then say this isn’t a question, I’m just venting.

    2. Former Expat*

      Gently, a lot of people are not going to take it well if you bring up that they have been doing X for longer than you have been alive. Sometimes the value of experience gets sacrificed to the altar of youth, and that is rough for older workers. Again, gently, black pepper is so ubiquitous that it is a challenge for people to not include it. Honestly, I would be worried that I would make something, remind myself to separate a bit without the black pepper, forget, and then leap across a table screaming “noooooooooooo” when I suddenly remember what I have done. It is not fair and that sucks. Maybe focus on the desserts next time? The resident baker will appreciate it.

      As the relationship itself. My time-honored bullet-proof suggestion is to ask her for help. I think it is called the Benjamin Franklin effect. Basically, people are nicer to those they have helped (somewhat counterintuitive). I don’t mean have her do all your work, but ask her to suggest a blog about your industry to follow, or if she does the potluck because she is a foodie, as her for tips on that. Hope this helps!

      1. Dragoning*

        I was not talking to the coworker in question.

        And Trust me, I am entirely aware of how common the thing I cannot eat is. It’s also very rarely vital to a dish. People could just…not add it. It’s not like attempting to bake a cake without eggs, or something.

        I do eat desserts, but it’s lunch time, and I get a cookie and a slice of cake while everyone else gets actual food to eat, and it sucks.

        1. Dragoning*

          (I also think the fact that I come to her for help angers her more–she’s been really upset lately about feeling too busy and given too many things to do by our mutual manager, and I feel like she thinks I’m stupid and don’t know what I’m doing)

        2. AnonForToday*

          We have potlucks regularly at work and we always ask about allergies and food restrictions — every time, even if there are no new team members (because these things can change).

          While we can’t change anyone’s behavior but our own, I agree that your coworkers are being rude to not make any attempt to accommodate your allergy. Possibly to the extent of an ADA violation if your allergy is severe enough to be covered.

          1. anon moose, anon mouse*

            Would this really count as an ADA violation if the coworkers are doing this on their own and it’s not company sponsored, though? If the company was paying for the food, sure, but if the coworkers are paying for the food on their own, I don’t know think that falls under ADA.

            They’re not even required to accommodate it if they don’t want to. Based on OP’s comments, I wouldn’t want to go out of my way to make something for someone who didn’t even bother attempting to bring in food and instead sulked in the corner with an empty plate.

            Most reasonable adults will realize that their allergy means sometimes they can’t participate. Sure, it sucks, but grab a sandwich and go chat with your coworkers and enjoy the desserts they provide.

          2. Hufflepuffin*

            It’s rude to expect people to make food for you when you don’t do the same for them.

      2. Mouse*

        It seems like it was the coworker herself who made the age comment–something like “I’ve been working here longer than you’ve been alive!”

        1. Dragoning*

          No, the coworker who’d had the anniversary wasn’t around or part of the conversation at all. I don’t think that coworker has any problem with me at all.

          (I also don’t think she thinks about me much, but that’s fine)

    3. Admin of Sys*

      The ‘too young to be working’ comment is definitely out of line – age discrimination is not allowed in the US. I would consider actually bring that up with her in a very professional manner – if she’s your manager, you could ask if she has problems with your work, but I would definitely point out that age shouldn’t be a factor.
      However, on the black pepper side, it’s a /lot/ harder to cook for folks who have allergies than it is to cook for folks who are vegetarian, especially with something like black pepper. I would be tremendously hesitant to offer to make something because everything would have to be safe from cross contamination and made from scratch, because pepper is one of the things you don’t have to list on labels.

      1. What’s with Today, today?*

        The comment about the person working there “longer than I’ve been alive,” was also inappropriate.

        1. Dragoning*

          I didn’t realize that! The coworker in question wasn’t even in that day, so she couldn’t have overheard me, and I wasn’t saying anything about her skills–she’s very good at her job and I appreciate having her here. And frankly, everyone around here treats me like I’m their child because I’m the same age as their kids–and they admit it.

          It was more said in a tone of kind of wonderment like “wow, that’s such an accomplishment, I don’t even know how to fathom that.”

          That sentence was literally the entire statement–I wasn’t trying to discriminate. And I didn’t feel like anyone was discriminating against me, just annoyed that I was even trying to participate in the conversation.

          1. Myrin*

            FWIW, it read exactly like an expression of the kind of wonderment you’re describing to me.

      2. Autumnheart*

        The other factor is that, well, it’s a potluck. If it were a catered lunch paid for by the company, that would be a different situation and everyone’s needs should be accommodated as best they can. But with a potluck, presumably these employees are using their own time and money to contribute food to these events.

        Potluck culture generally means two things: 1) If one wants to eat, one had better contribute something, and 2) it’s SUPER rude to complain about what people made, especially if one didn’t bring anything themselves. It’s not Burger King, they don’t have to make it your way.

        1. Dragoning*

          I don’t complain! But I also sit there not eating every time while everyone interrogates me about what happens if I eat it, and it sucks.

          It just makes me feel entirely un-valued, which is the opposite of team-bonding.

          1. Admin of Sys*

            In retrospect, folks could at least be bringing in carrots and cheese plates or something? I got stuck a little on cooked dishes, but baby carrots and cheddar or brie would totally be doable. Would folks possibly be amiable to the idea of a dessert specific event? It’s a lot less likely you’d have to worry about ingredients in a cake.

            1. Dragoning*

              They are having a dessert specific event. It’s also scheduled…when I’m not going to be in the office due to furlough. The coworker who organized it didn’t even tell me about it until it was brought up by someone else and I asked what he was talking about.

              They actually once organized a chili contest, which I could barely even smell because of the pepper in all of it, and that was the only thing ANYONE brought.

              1. RandomU...*

                What else are you supposed to bring to a chili contest?

                Honestly, you seem a little over invested in the potluck thing. Bring your own dish that you can eat. Find a recipe and learn how to make it.

                As to the comment about the age thing… umm yeah. Not the greatest comment, it doesn’t matter if the coworker wasn’t there to hear it. In some ways that makes it a little worse. I get how you intended it, but that’s not how it comes across.

                Your coworker sounds busy and stressed and probably annoyed with you and your potluck fixation.

                My advice, forget the potluck and deal quietly. Offer to help your coworker if you can. And lay off comments that can be taken the wrong way.

                1. Dragoning*

                  It’s not like I talk about the potlucks at work daily. I’m just thinking about it today because I got four freaking invites this morning to the next one.

                  I mean, I just feel like…why would you make an event that people can’t participate in? Every time someone suggests sports, we’re reminded that no, one of our coworkers has a disability and can’t do physical activity, and it gets taken off the list. Which it should! That’s fair!

                  But it’s sort of frustrating that no one cares what I can participate in.

                  I’m…I mean, I’m awkward, I say the wrong things sometimes, but I try to be nice and friendly and apologize, but I’m frustrated and I feel like my coworkers all wish I was gone, and that’s not really a great place to be, either, you know?

                  I’m so sorry me posting a frustrated and upset comment to a thread you had no need to read annoyed you so much. Trust me, I feel thoroughly chastened.

                2. Dragoning*

                  It just feels to me like making a peanut butter cookie contest when one of your coworkers is allergic to peanuts. Just, why?

                3. anon moose, anon mouse*

                  Honestly, I think you’re being a little extreme. Black pepper is so hard to remove from cooking. I use black pepper in pretty much every meal and recipe I make. Aside from salad, I cannot think of a single thing I don’t use it for.

                  You’re basically insinuating they’re having potlucks and they shouldn’t because you can’t eat a common ingredient. I’m allergic to shellfish. A previous company had some coworkers put together a summer cookout that was predominantly shellfish. Just because I couldn’t eat it didn’t mean I was wilting in the office and throwing a tantrum about how they were doing it and I couldn’t participate. They weren’t doing it as an attack on me and they honestly didn’t have to accommodate my allergy when I was the only person who couldn’t eat something.

                  I just brought my own food, ate the desserts at their event, and talked to my coworkers. And I survived.

                  I think you need to let this go.

                4. Ro*

                  Dragoning, we have someone who doesn’t bring anything to our potlucks and while she’s welcome to show up and graze on the food we brought, there is no way in hell I would consider making something especially for her. You’re not making an effort but expect others to? That’s really unrealistic, sorry.

                5. Ro*

                  I also don’t understand why you can’t put soup or ramen in a thermos or Tupperware so it doesn’t spill? You really do need to try to help yourself here!

            2. Dragoning*

              (I’m also sort of stuck on the fact that this coworker wouldn’t even send out an email reminding people about the allergy, just to see if anyone would make something. There used to be email reminders about religious food restrictions for a coworker that isn’t here anymore)

              1. Tortoise*

                I don’t think I would want to use my capital sending such an email if the person wasn’t contributing anything themselves.

                2. Jem One*

                  Absolutely. Why help someone who won’t do the bare minimum to help themselves first?

              2. Autumnheart*

                Scheduling events that occur when you’re out, and making food that doesn’t accommodate your allergy, are both completely fine. Especially when you are not contributing food to these events yourself.

      3. Lilysparrow*

        Oh, dear. Making obnoxious cracks to your co-workers about each other’s ages isn’t discrimination. It has nothing to do with hiring, pay, working conditions, etc.

        It does have a lot to do with creating unnecessary tension and offense, in both directions. And bringing up discrimination to the senior person “very professionally” would be so extremely not helpful to this situation.

        OP unintentionally made a remark that the co-worker found insulting, for reasons that make perfect sense in hindsight but that OP didn’t think of at the time.

        The co-worker pushed back in a way that strongly implied there is a pattern of these type of unfortunate remarks, and that her patience is wearing thin.

        Best thing the OP could do is take a big step back from chatting with co-worker, and consider what other instances might be included in the category of “saying wierd things.”

        Focusing on how to avoid giving offense is going to be far more helpful than looking for ways to take offense.

      4. Modern gal*

        Age discrimination is allowed in the U.S. against younger people. Only 40+ is protected.

    4. Kelly*

      You’re overthinking it. With allergy/dislike/whatever situations, it’s more “team-building” to bring what you CAN eat, rather than complain and expect everyone else to remember your food allergy.

      Pull together a veggie tray with dip/hummus and be done with it.

        1. Ro*

          But you said your colleague seemed not to have warmed to you, and people are trying to reflect why you might not be getting on brilliantly right now.

    5. Deb Morgan*

      I think you have two options with your coworker:
      1. Say something along the lines of, “I wanted to apologize for that thing I said the other day that really seemed to bother you. It didn’t come out the way I intended.”
      Or
      2. Say nothing and give her a wide berth socially, while of course being available for work stuff. Just limit the amount you speak to her.
      This sounds like one of those cases where you are unintentionally rubbing someone the wrong way, and she is being rude to you because she’s frustrated. Sorry, this situation sucks. But it might be salvageable if you take a few steps back from her. You don’t have to be friends, but you do have to work together, so focus on a way to do that peacefully (on your end, at least).

      1. Dragoning*

        Yeah, I’ve been mostly trying to avoid her. I guess it’s nice to get some affirmation that that path might actually help some.

    6. Not A Manager*

      Hi Dragoning!! Do you have a mentor at work, or anyone outside of work who can give you some informal advice about some of these things? From reading your OP and the follow-up comments, I think you might be misreading the room sometimes. I’m sympathetic, because I do that too.

      It was SUPER helpful to me that some very good friends were willing to talk through some of these interactions with me, and explain them in words instead of me needing to “pick up cues” that I didn’t even know were cues. Once I’ve had something explained once (maybe twice), I can remember the explanation and then apply it to related situations.

      I hope this doesn’t offend you, and it’s not meant to. But you’re living in a world of people-as-they-are, not people-as-you-wish-they-were. You might be sure that you’re right, but that won’t get you very far if the people that you’re dealing with feel differently.

    7. Southern Metalsmith*

      Ah, Dragoning, you have been a bit dumped on here, haven’t you? May I say, in your defense, that it really isn’t that difficult to remind people that a colleague is allergic to a common ingredient when a potluck is being planned. So I agree, that does sound thoughtless on your coworker’s part. After all, the point of the potluck is not really the food, it’s the sharing. (The others are right, too. You learning to cook – and something really delicious! would be the best ~~revenge~~, I mean, way to handle it.)
      Also, when I was young (way back in the mists of time) I can remember being fascinated by the idea that some of my colleagues had been doing their thing before I even existed, and now that I’m an old crone, the diversity in our individual time lines is still interesting. So, no, you weren’t being weird, she was. My only advice is to always be polite, professional, and considerate and if others can’t give you the same respect – ~~fuck ’em~~, I mean, don’t give them room in your head.

        1. jolene*

          Yes, I have an allergy and to me this comes across as very much: “Cook a nice dish to my specifications while I bring dinner rolls which cost $0.99 and take no effort whatsoever.”

    8. Lilysparrow*

      It certainly sounds to me like this co-worker is irritated with you. I’m not sure what kind of wierd things she’s referring to, but it sounds like it’s been building up and isn’t just that one comment about the older person.

      Yes, I think backing off on how frequently you chat with her is a good idea.

      I think you could also make more headway with your team if you looked at the social events as an opportunity to get to know them individually, rather than a referendum on whether they like you as much as they like the vegetarian co-worker, or the religious coworker.

      If you sit in the corner by yourself, not eating, not circulating, and not initiating conversation with anyone, that is conspicuous. It’s going to read to some people like you need rescuing. And it’s going to read to others like you’re sulking.

      But the ones who want to rescue you kinda don’t have much to latch onto than, “Why aren’t you having lunch? Can I get you anything?”

      If you get testy or impatient with people who are trying to be nice, or make lots of complicated excuses why simple options are impossible for you, people are going to get irritated over time.

      Changing this dynamic is entirely within your control, if you are willing to try some different approaches. NotAManager has a good idea about finding someone to brainstorm with.

    9. SusanIvanova*

      I’m kind of boggled here by everyone who says black pepper is hard to avoid – I’m a good cook, but I think my pepper grinder has been working on the same 2 tablespoons for years. I just grabbed the nearest copy of Cooks Illustrated, and at least half the recipes are pepper free.

      1. valentine*

        I’m kind of boggled here by everyone who says black pepper is hard to avoid
        Me too, especially if these are homemade dishes.

        I loathe potlucks. Dragoning, I doubt your coworkers all dislike you. They simply don’t remember your allergy and no one’s reminding them. (The good news there is they’re probably not fixated on you (until they see you not eating).) Do you feel you can’t send allergy reminders? (You shouldn’t have to and I understand if you don’t want to.) Could you order in a non-soup dish for yourself and share? If you can’t afford it, ask your supervisor if it can be expensed. You could also eat your ramen wherever you usually have lunch without spilling, then join the group, but you’ll have to specify you already ate due to the allergy. A lone “I already ate” would seem confrontational.

        she was like “Well you keep saying weird things so I’m just saying them back now.”
        This is Captain Awkward’s return awkward to sender. Given you say you’re bad at small talk and you didn’t know your age-based comment was an insult, I am wondering if coworker is done with you. You both think you’re on the same page, but on her page, you know you’re saying “weird things” and on your page, she’s deliberately excluding you via your allergy. It might help you to run your small talk by a neutral third party (or this thread?). In the meantime, what if you chat to her less and see what happens?

      2. Myrin*

        Yeah, I’m astounded by that also – I cook a full meal almost every day and I use black pepper maybe half the time, if at all. And at least where I am, there aren’t a lot of canned foods or condiments or thelike which have black pepper in them, so it’s not like it’s in generally hard to avoid it (as it is with sugar, for example, which seems to be in everything, even if only in low quantities). Black pepper, to me, seems like something that’s quite easily avoidable by simply not adding it to one’s meal during cooking.

    10. No Name Jane*

      From what you describe, they’re not being harsh and you are overthinking. Your coworker’s reply to the age comment makes it sound as though she feels like you regularly make “weird” or “awkward” comments that could make others feel uncomfortable.

      You also describe making no effort to accommodate your own needs and be a part of the “team building”. Bring your own sandwich. Make a salad or pasta dish (little cooking required, beyond boiling water) that can be shared. If you are able to, get an inexpensive crockpot and find a couple of recipes that require little beyond dumping ingredients in and letting it simmer. Learn to make one dish (unless you have some kind of physical or cognitive limitation you’re not describing, “can’t cook” sounds like “won’t learn how to cook”). I’m an incredibly picky eater, so when a potluck or any kind of group meal comes around, it’s on me to make sure I have something to eat – bring my own sandwich, bring Mac & cheese to share, etc. People never give me a hard time about it because I don’t make it a big deal.

      Of course you have every right to feel frustrated. No one can tell you how to feel. The question to ask yourself is what is that frustration getting you. You cannot control the actions of others – at work or in life. If you want to feel differently, take action on things YOU can control. Choose to feel differently, provide your own meals (either an individual serving or by contributing something substantial to the group), or… try to find a job with people who you think will be more accommodating to your requests (though I suspect that will be a challenge if you aren’t willing to meet people halfway).

      You are early in your career. It will serve you well to figure out how to take others’ actions less personally and focus more on what you can do to ensure your needs are met than expecting others to know/remember/care to go out of their way to do things for you.

  86. Higher Ed Professional*

    I currently work in a Director position at a public university. It is a good university and prestigious job, but I am unhappy with my work environment.

    I’ve been offered an interview at a start-up educational company. The company/school offers a bachelor’s degree in computer science, and it is accredited, but it is for-profit. I know that for-profit schools (such as U. of Phoenix) often have bad reputations. However, when I googled this school, it had great reviews from both current faculty/staff and students/alumni.

    My question: would it be a terrible career move to leave an established university for a for-profit start-up? I am very interested in the job and Glassdoor gives good reviews about the management. My current management is terrible, which is why I’m trying to leave. However, I don’t want to damage my professional reputation. Thoughts?

    1. Willow*

      You should also consider whether you’re OK with leaving a relatively secure environment (even if it’s a screwed-up one) for a far-less-secure one. There’s no guarantee that a start-up will succeed. If they go belly-up, can you survive on savings till you find a new job?

    2. boredatwork*

      There’s been a lot written about questioning the professional judgement of people who get degrees from for-profit school, and that it may actually weaken their candidacy.

      Think long and hard about how this will be perceived by your peers if you wanted to go back to a non-profit school. Will having this on your resume make people question for professional judgement? I’ve read over and over again on here and other places about how impossible getting into academia is, so I’d tread with caution.

    3. Minerva McGonagall*

      I don’t think there’s any harm in going for an interview to see how true the reviews are. I’m in higher ed and I would personally not go to a for-profit just out of concern of how it would look on my resume. I also agree with what Willow said about the job security aspect.

    4. Former Expat*

      My spouse is in academia and has been on several hiring committees this past year. I hear a lot of stories over dinner. If you do leave for the start-up, just do it secure in the knowledge that a regular university might never take you back. There are some petty people on those hiring committees. Someone interviewed for as admin assistant job at my spouse’s school (no BA required) with a degree from a for-profit and they held it against her.

    5. Frankie*

      Mmmm. IDK. I guess it kind of depends on the area you’re currently in?

      I would really be wary of an educational startup, regardless of your background. Every one I’ve had to work with in relation to my current job has been a mess. I know that’s anecdotal, but truly, it’s a move I would never consider vs. going back to a corporate environment, unless I knew someone personally there very well who could assure me the place was well-run.

      I also just think the educational landscape is only beginning to feel what I suspect will be true and profound disruption over many decades. Educational startups, until they’ve really been around a while, feel like really short-term gambles to me.

    6. foolofgrace*

      it had great reviews from both current faculty/staff and students/alumni.

      Well of course it did — these people have a vested interest in protecting their choice of university. I wouldn’t chance it. Even Alison has, at least once that I remember, told someone to just leave their for-profit degrees completely off their resume.

  87. Mouse Princess*

    Hi All! I am finally leaving my toxic workplace! I got an offer at a much larger org. with a WAY better title – I’m going from Coordinator to Associate Director (what?) and for 20K than I currently make! YAY! I credit reading AAM religiously for the last 5 years for much of my success.

    I can’t wait for an exit interview. I probably won’t mention all of this to HR because it would burn bridges, so I’m going to dump some of the more absurd things here for all to enjoy:

    -The first red flag was when my manager hugged me after my first job interview with her.
    – Manager asked me to babysit her teenager and escort her to a concert in another city
    -Executive director belittles and bullies staff in front of others
    -The executive director leaves feces on the toilet seat
    -Executive director eats others’ food from the fridge (in an office of just 7 employees) including an uncut birthday cake (they had to sing happy birthday to her around a half-eaten cake)
    -Constant commentary on my appearance including male coworkers repeatedly tell me to “smile” or that I have “resting bitch face”
    -Male coworker told me I look like I “work for the man” and “aged myself 20 years” when I got a haircut
    -Older female coworker tells me I “look so grown up” whenever I don’t wear my glasses
    -Constant touching from female coworker including unsolicited back rubs, smelling my hair
    -The executive director referred to female interns as “honking heifers”
    -Manager (who I share on office with) constantly takes personal phone calls and does not leave office, uses voice to text on her phone, and generally has no personal/professional boundaries
    -Manager constantly discusses her children’s mental and physical health, including when her 12 year old is menstruating, PMSing, trying new depression medication, etc (I don’t think these things necessarily need to be taboo if you’re talking about yourself, but I do think her daughter deserves to have her own privacy)

    Well that’s just some of the anecdotes. Every day here has been an ordeal for me. I have boundaries! I’m not a cold person, I just don’t want to talk about people’s problems. I can’t wait to leave!

    1. Librarian interview*

      Oh my god, wow. All of these are bad but some are particularly awful. Consider writing a glassdoor review to warn others away too.

    3. Jan Levinson*

      Oh my…these are…yeah.

      The manager talking about when her daughter is menstruating reminds me of my manager who used to give my coworker and I daily updates on whether her daughter had wet her pants the day before. She also gave us explicit details of what caused the pants wedding, and that (I kid you not) told us that her daughter “has a crooked ureth** that causes her stream to be abnormal.”

      I wish you could mention all of this to HR and tell us what happens!

      1. Mouse Princess*

        It’s so sad for the daughter. The last thing she deserves is having her personal medical info shared with strangers.

      2. That Girl From Quinn's House*

        Her daughter is Hank Hill? “I have a narrow urethra!”

        Some years back, my dad’s admin came in and proudly announced that her daughter had gotten her period the night before. He was appalled.

    5. foolofgrace*

      Exit interviews are shared with the manager for the manager’s benefit. I used to work in HR, and they really don’t want to get involved in this sort of stuff. I don’t think mine was the only HR department to treat them this way. I mean, maybe the head of HR would want to see them, and I suppose other places are different. I think you’d be doing much better to share on Glassdoor. Why burn a bridge for no benefit to yourself?

      1. Grace Less*

        But if the office is only 7 people, they’re going to know who wrote the GlassDoor review. I wouldn’t write anything there that you wouldn’t say in your exit interview, because it’s the same bridge being set alight.

        1. Mouse Princess*

          Yeah, I think I’d even have to create the glassdoor profile for the office…we are a satellite site for a much larger organization.

      2. Mouse Princess*

        Yeah exactly, there is nothing here that can be corrected based on my input alone so there’s really nothing worth bringing to HR. I may just mention a culture with a lack of personal/professional boundaries and leave it at that.

  88. Belle of the Midwest*

    I have worked at my university for nearly 27 years and have moved offices 3 times. I had hoped that 5 years ago when we restructured and I moved offices then, that it would be the last time till retirement. Nope. Our department has grown and people are shuffling offices. My whole team is moving to the other side of our building. They gave us five boxes that the movers will handle for us. Today has been about 1/3 packing and 2/3 pitching stuff. It’s only noon. I’ve been at it 3 hours and I’m tired. I know this is a small problem in the grand scheme of things. I am fortunate to have a good career and people who respect me and a wall full of awards. (which reminds me. . .I have to pack those too. . .le sigh)

    3. LaurenB*

      Well, if 2/3 of your stuff could be pitched, then it’s probably good that the move is inspiring you to clean your office out. Honestly, this is really no big deal, and you have movers.

  89. Catherine*

    My department is launching an updated version of a form with a new field to capture estimate time required to complete a project. The form says estimated ‘mandays’. I hate that name and have been trying to get it changed to ‘workdays’ with no success. I get looked at like I’m crazy. It’s 2019, why would we introduce a new form with such outdated language? Am I being over sensitive here?

    1. OlympiasEpiriot*

      Nope. When I joined my firm, we used “Man Hours”. One day, I changed a heading to “Staff Hours”. No one noticed. Did it again. And again. Trained myself to use “staffing” in conversation until I didn’t screw up. (I’m female and had to retrain myself, okay?) Then, started pointing it out to others when the word was used and people weren’t in an insane rush and also explaining I had to retrain myself first but was now “on a bit of a crusade about it”. Slowly, it seems others are going along.

      Since you are at a launch rather than joining a firm founded before World War One, I say say something now.

    2. Jules the First*

      Workdays does not equal mandays, so I’m not surprised you’re getting pushback. If you have five people working on a project for a week, that’s 25 mandays but only 5 workdays.

      I go with “humandays” when I’m joking and “architect days” when I’m being gender-neutral. You could also try “FTE” (full time equivalent).

  90. How 'feminine' is too feminine?*

    So, after the shorts thread this week, I went down a bit of a rabbit hole with the appearance-related questions (you know what the ‘Questions you might like’ section is like, it’s a black hole of new tabs and procrastination!) and I noticed a bit of a running theme.

    Obviously, there have been women writing in and going ‘I don’t align with XYZ female grooming standard (shaving, makeup, etc), is that okay’, and that’s totally a concern that a lot of people want addressed, but I kind of have the opposite. A lot of comments seem to go the other way – basically saying that, at least in their fields, ‘excessive’ grooming for women is seen as unprofessional, like she doesn’t have her priorities straight, etc.

    I’m pretty damn femme. I enjoy makeup – not always a full face (aka not always foundation) but almost always lipstick and eyeshadow, so I know that a lot of people think I do wear a full face. I have long hair, past my waist, although I usually don’t wear it loose. I like having nice nails, usually not in bright colours, but I really like a dusty rose or a muted aqua. I much prefer skirts and dresses to the leg-prisons that are trousers.

    None of that means that I can’t be professional! None of that means that I don’t have my priorities straight! But scattered all throughout the comments in appearance-related threads are people mentioning that they think painted nails are unprofessional or that someone at their job had to start ‘dressing down’ because she was being perceived as being above herself, and stuff like that.

    So, femme women and femme-leaning nb folk of AAM. Is this really a prejudice/stereotype that I’m doomed to face sooner or later? (Or already face behind my back?) Do I really need to tone down my ‘femininity’ in order to be seen as competent? Are women not considered competent unless they conform to a more masculine presentation? (Looking at you, media coverage of female politicians wearing skirts…)

    1. Temperance*

      Honestly, I think there is a line at work. Wearing makeup is fine, but those gigantic false eyelashes (the ones that look fake) aren’t professional. Same with oversized fake nails.

      I don’t wear pants to work except on jeans days, and I am touch and go with makeup … but I don’t think that wearing skirts is a career killer.

    2. Semaj*

      Sadly, I think there’s always a chance that this will impact you, but you can do your part by seeking out organizations with cultures that aren’t so judgmental/conservative. I’m lucky to live in a pretty liberal place with coworkers who have nose-rings, tattoos, and unnaturally colored hair.

      I’m with you – my nails are always done, I wear make up daily, and I prefer skirts and dresses. But I also do my best to be a rockstar at my job and to be known for my professionalism and reliability. I’ve chosen how I want to present myself, it’s a part of my identity and I’m not going to tone it down for anyone. Will that impact me in interviews moving forward? Maybe, but if it does those aren’t places I want to work.

      Ultimately, I think it’s something you need to come to your own terms with.

    3. PB*

      I don’t think there’s an absolute rule here. A lot varies field-to-field, office-to-office, and region-to-region. To me, what you describe honestly sounds fine and would be 100% office appropriate for every place I’ve worked. I think my main question for you would be, how well does your look mesh with the rest of your office? If you generally fit in, or even if you’re slightly more styled, I think you’re fine.

      I’ve also noticed, on the flip side, that there are always some people in the comments who will say that you can’t be professional unless you have a manicure/full face/pantyhose/pant suit/etc. etc. etc. You’ll never be able to please all of the people all of the time. The best you can do is to dress in a way that works for you, and (as much as your able) take the temperature of whatever environment you’re in and try to dress accordingly.

    4. LaDeeDa*

      Women “have” to walk such a fine line — which is total crap. But there have been so many studies around this subject and it always comes down to- women need to be feminine or they are discriminated against, but not too feminine or they are seen as less competent. It is all BS and it makes my blood boil. I address this in the Unconscious Bias class all people leaders must go through. The men always object saying it isn’t true, just as the woman next them is nodding their head.
      As long as you are fitting into the standards of your company– your dresses aren’t summer casual dresses but work appropriate dresses, your skirts are a professional length… don’t worry. Just be you and be confident and hopefully you work with and for people who are judging you on your merit.

      FWIW I am a senior vp and I prefer skirts and dresses, currently, my nails are royal blue, and I always wear a full face of makeup.

    5. Anonforthis*

      One thing I will say is that this, like many other things, becomes less of an issue as you become older/more established in your career. I’m 50, and I’ve worked in a number of different industries that required dress codes pretty much everywhere on the spectrum from business professional to jeans casual. I now work at a biotech company where we can wear anything – my go-to choices are jeans, a nice t-shirt or sweater, and sneakers or Tom’s slip ons in a variety of colors and styles. I don’t wear a lot of makeup and I gave up getting manicures. I figure that as long as I am clean and appropriately groomed, it doesn’t really matter what I wear; I let the quality of my work speak for itself. But if someone else wants to wear skirts and full-on makeup, that’s totally their choice. I would just say it’s a careful line between what looks okay at work and what you might wear to a club.

    6. Bananatiel*

      So after about ten years of navigating offices I’ve come to the conclusion that the recipe for success as a woman is just to not stick out. Which is sad and stupid but in the last few years I’ve gotten really inconsistent feedback that is just baffling unless you summarize it as “just be more like us!”. One female boss told me I should wear tighter clothes!

    7. Cedrus Libani*

      I’m in tech, and…yeah, that prejudice is alive and well. There’s the practical issue: every new person you meet will assume you’re the receptionist, because femme office attire is what low-level admins wear. There’s also the cultural idea that anyone putting visible effort into their presentation is inherently suspect, because they are trying to borrow credibility and/or influence from their appearance rather than their skills. This goes for a dude in a sharp suit, too. The Platonic ideal of a tech worker dresses like he stole his entire wardrobe from the dumpster behind a thrift store, and nobody dares say a word, because his code basically prints money.

      As with everything, you’ll have an easier time if you blend in. But you can get away with standing out; you just have to own it, and accept that you might be underestimated at first sight. I’ve had very femme colleagues, and if they’re good at their jobs, people just shrug and accept it as a quirk.

    8. Elizabeth West*

      I missed a lot of that shorts thing (I can’t keep up with these monster threads anymore) but what you’re describing for your own appearance sounds perfectly fine to me. I wouldn’t even look twice at any of it.

      My hair is now past my bra strap and I DO wear it down (albeit styled as neatly as I can manage) and I don’t give two shits what anyone else thinks.

    9. MissDisplaced*

      There’s no hard and fast rule as to what constitutes “too feminine.”
      I guess my definition would be anything that goes too over the top beyond good grooming maybe?

      When I think about what that means to me, it is: overly heavy pancake makeup, or anything too sparkly shiny, girly-girl or excessively pink and frilly. Also, it could be clothing that is too short or low cut, or really high stiletto heels that give the effect of prancing instead of walking. Sometimes women who are really into fashion get this look… like EVERYTHING they wear sports high end designer logos or is an improbable runway type look (which is nearly always over the top glam). Then there are women who sort of want to look like a human Barbie doll.

      I mean, at some jobs (fashion, entertainment, music) a lot of this would be fine or even expected (think of Andi in Devil Wear Prada). But for most corporate jobs, looking too made-up or fashion-plate could be negatively viewed as being high maintenance, or seen as not having ones priorities straight, even if it’s rather unfair and sexist. I suppose it also does go for men too. A Patrick Bateman type is a good example of guy who’s too into grooming as a priority. LOL.

    10. Lilysparrow*

      If you look like you run a beauty channel on YouTube, or had a Hollywood hair & makeup team getting you ready for the Oscars, yes people are going to take you less seriously.

      If your nails are so long and decorated that they impinge on doing normal tasks like dialing the phone or turning pages, people are going to take you less seriously.

      There may be some fields where ordinary daytime makeup and nail color are looked down on. But I think in most offices, as long as you are wearing the makeup and it’s not wearing you, as they say, you’re fine.

    11. WS*

      I’m moderately butch in an office of quite femme co-workers (aged between 22 and 60). This is not a big deal in the office, but it’s always me who gets called for back-up when a client is harassing someone or being demanding or aggressive, because the client will listen to me when I tell them to back off and they will not listen to my more femme co-workers. Could it just be a personality issue? Maybe, but older men, in particular, seem to think they can bully the more femme women into getting what they want and they do not try that with me.

      1. Lilysparrow*

        I think you’re quite right that certain types are going to respond to you more as they would to a man (which stinks, of course). In addition to the butch/femme dynamic, I think there’s a signal sent by any type of visible non-conformity that you are less likely to bend under bullying.

        Particularly in a business situation, a demanding/bullying client is leveraging social obligations and disapproval. Non-conformity, whether it’s gender signals or pushing the boundaries on other norms, is going to say, “I don’t care about your approval and don’t feel obligated to appease you.”

  91. Rainy Friday*

    I need to have 1:1 with a direct report and I’m looking for a script that might help me convey the need to delegate.

    We’ve talked about it several times and it’s been ongoing since before I got here, he’s clearly overwhelmed and admits that, nothing has changed (won’t ask for help–it’s perceived as a sign of weakness), and I’m now at the point where I need to say he has to choose a couple things to offload, and if he won’t by next week, I’ll choose for him. I don’t like to have to do that, but I can’t and won’t give him anything else until I see progress. I’m thinking of mentioning work capacity (thanks to yesterday’s letter–that was a gem for me to read!) and how he needs to work towards reducing it down to under 100% so that when something unexpected comes along, it’s not a crisis. Plus it would give him time to think, plan, etc. I also liked what someone said about yesterday’s extra effort creating unrealistic expectations today–so true!

    I guess I’m hoping for some magical words that would suddenly make him realize that he needs to prioritize, delegate, and cross train without having it be an order. I’m hoping for a light bulb moment, but maybe I’m overly optimistic.

    1. LaDeeDa*

      I would start by asking him some questions… because to really address this problem you have to figure out why he refuses to let go.
      “We have spoken before about your need to delegate some work to other people, but that hasn’t happened yet. Can you tell me why? (why are you resistant to it?) ”
      If he isn’t able to give an answer you can probe to see if it is a matter of control- he doesn’t think anyone can do it as well. Is it that he is hoarding the knowledge and work to make himself indispensable- is he worried he would be let go if someone else could do some of the things only he can do? Is he having trouble prioritizing what he should do and what others should do? He may need your help to decide who else can do what.

      Not the magic words you were hoping for, but I hope it helps and that others have more words of wisdom.

    2. fposte*

      Yeah, it’s time for you to step in. You’ve told him more than once and it hasn’t changed.

      Some people like this are used to this characteristic being a virtue, and it’s hard for them to really believe you mean it when you say it’s actually a performance problem. This will be a good thing for him long-term and short-term.

    3. Autumnheart*

      What about a process change? Is there room for a meeting every week or every other week, where you go over the status of each of his projects, determine together what to delegate, and set some action items to accomplish over the week?

      If your report has an overdeveloped sense of responsibility where they feel like delegating is a mark against them (like they wouldn’t have to delegate if they weren’t so lazy and disorganized! Some people feel shame about having someone else do work that should be “theirs”), then this might be a good way to get him used to framing it more as being efficient, not as “giving people work that I should have done”.

      And you can make the executive decision, at least at first, to be like “Let’s delegate A, B and C. Steve has capacity for A, Jane has capacity for B and C, and that will give you plenty of time to finish the rest before Steve is out of office next Friday. Then you’ll take X from Steve if he hasn’t finished.”

    4. Rainy Friday*

      Thanks! I ended up talking to him today. I think he saw the writing on the wall because he came prepared with a plan and has already started delegating. He commented that it feels good and is a relief. I still mentioned that my original plan was to give him a week to start delegating otherwise I’d start taking things away, but that I won’t do that as long as he keeps making progress. It was actually a really good talk and his mood was much lighter the rest of the day. Mine, too!! I felt like I won the lottery, to be honest. Looks like we’re turning the corner!

      The background is that his former boss relied on him WAY too much and they both admitted that (Former Boss is elsewhere in the company by choice). He volunteered himself more than he should have, and Former Boss just let it continue because he was so swamped. Neither one of them could dig out so it just continued on. Plus, he felt that to delegate anything or ask for help was a sign of weakness.

      1. Kathenus*

        It sounds like you have a great working relationship with him – kudos on that! Sounds like this went really well and it’s good for him to know that you have his back on the overwork tendency.

        I can related, because I was an ‘overcommitter’ myself, and I had a manager who helped me work through this and ask myself about my workload before taking on new things, which was a really great thing for me to develop. Then, a few years later, I had a boss that almost derailed it all by supporting and promoting the ‘do it all’ mentality. Luckily my former manager’s lessons stuck, and I was even able to learn to push back on him when he asked me to take on new tasks, with a consistent – ‘of course I can do X, which project should I de-prioritize to fit it in’. It took a couple of years but he eventually even wrote on one of my appraisals that I was good at communicating to him what I could realistically accomplish! Still love that old manager, she helped me so much in my professional (and personal) development. I try to channel her today with my own team.

  92. moneypenny*

    I’m heading into the third round of interviews for a major company that will require travel at the beginning of each project (they last about 12-18 weeks), three days for the first three weeks of the project. What should I be aware of and specific concerns to think of or ask about?

    1. boredatwork*

      If you’re going to be traveling that much important things to consider:

      1) How much notice do you get? Knowing where and when you go somewhere is helpful
      2) What are the accommodations? Hotels? Air B&B? Sharing a room?
      3) What is the expensing policy? How generous is the per diem? do you have to keep receipts? Do you have to book the cheapest flight? Are you going to get hassled for getting guac at chipotle?
      4) What is the policy around reward points? Traveling that much should earn you quite a few nice vacations every year if you get to keep all the points.

      Number 4 is a sticking point for me. If you’re spending 40 nights and taking 13+ flights a year that is some serious reward $$ if you get the credit cards and play the game right. I’m going to Italy for two weeks entirely on a year’s worth of travel reward points.

      1. moneypenny*

        Thanks for this, very helpful. What of these would you consider deal-breakers? Meaning, at which point do I get the lowdown on travel details if I’m already into the third round? We’ve talked money but haven’t hammered out a number yet, and I don’t have details on benefits. I’m not sure when to bring all this up, especially considering the other company I’m interviewing with gave me those items during the first in-person interview (I’m leaning heavily towards the first one, but it was nice the second one gave me so much detail so early). I meet with the director of ops on Monday via WebEx.

        1. Lucette Kensack*

          It’s tough, because they’re not likely to give you this level of detail on the travel. I’m not sure why, but everywhere I’ve interviewed has been surprised (and not sure where to get the information) whenever I ask about anything other than salary and basic benefits.

          I think your best bet would be to discuss it once you get an offer. You could ask something like “Could you share more details about your travel policies? I’m thinking about things like how per diems are structured, how travel arrangements are made (and what discretion I could have in making those arrangements), and so on.” If you got a confused or otherwise unsatisfactory response, you could add: “I’m not concerned about the travel, but because it’s pretty significant, I do want to make sure that I’m clear on how it’s going to work. Could I have a brief conversation with whoever arranges business travel?”

        2. boredatwork*

          Honestly, all of it is a big deal. I wouldn’t accept that much travel without getting digression over where I stay (and that needs to be alone), getting to pick my flights and keep all travel reward points.

          In an interview, you can casually ask how travel arrangements are handled. Once you have an offer, feel free to ask for detailed information.

          1. moneypenny*

            Noted. I totally agree, I would much rather stay in a room alone since all-day conversation wears me out huge and then having to be social in the room with a coworker after, that’s a lot to take. Fortunately, a lot of people in my field seem to be the same way so I wonder if solo rooms are a standard as a result. I just asked for the benefits information if they’re able to share it at this stage, and they’ve been nothing but accommodating and great to talk to so far so here’s hoping the travel info comes as easily.

            1. boredatwork*

              Hopefully, at some point, you can speak to a future co-worker. I would ask them about the travel policies, I’m always very honest about how things work.

              My company builds in time for “informal” interview time, where you get to ask anything you want to a group of your future peers.

        3. Public Health Nerd*

          I would ask them how travel works at their company. That will give you a sense of how trips are scheduled and how much control you have. For the rest of it, you could ask to see or have them review their travel policy. In general, more control over arrangements will make your life better. Many companies who are tring to hire travel intensive roles will share this stuff as positive marketing.

    2. Lucette Kensack*

      You probably don’t want to ask all of these, but these are the things I would be thinking about (speaking as someone who used to travel 50% for work):

      Who books travel? (You, an assistant, etc.?)

      What are their policies around selecting flights? (Are you required to choose the cheapest option? What if it’s a red-eye, or has multiple connections, etc.? Can you stick with one airline so you can earn status and miles?)

      What are their policies around seating on flights? (What class will you be seated in? Do they require you use the cheapest class, that doesn’t allow for selecting seats in advance? Do they allow upgrades to business class for longer flights?)

      What are their policies around times of travel? (Can you decide whether to fly out Sunday evening or early Monday?)

      1. moneypenny*

        These are very helpful, thanks. I am tall so legroom matters but I’ve also only flown Southwest for the last 10 years or so (happily, I love them), but if someone else is booking it would matter to me if they took my comfort into consideration.

        How common is sharing a room with a coworker vs. having your own room?

        1. Lucette Kensack*

          Totally depends on your field!

          In nonprofits (my field), it’s very common, at least for non-executives. Apparently the same is true in academia. I don’t think it’s particularly common in other fields.

    3. RandomU...*

      Great advice already, but I’m going to add some things that are not negotiations related but nobody ever seems to mention or think about when starting a travel job.

      -My advice is to try and settle in to a routine that can be kept up on the road or at home (things like a nightly cup of tea… can be done at home or in any hotel). Keeping up on your favorite tv shows… etc. This helps the feeling of continuity.
      -Get in a fitness routine. Eating at restaurants is no joke when it comes to gaining weight. I wish I had done something sooner.
      -Invest in good travel gear.

      1. moneypenny*

        Great advice. What do you consider “good travel gear”? Like bags and luggage, or extras for comfort?

        1. jolene*

          Light spinner suitcase
          Eye mask
          Inflatable head cushion
          Lightweight shoes for exercise (they make amazing ones now)
          Comfortable yet smart shoes for travelling
          Lovely comfy cashmere sweater or scarf to help sleeping on planes and trains
          Travel socks
          Kindle
          Lavender etc bath and body products to help sleep
          Refillable mini products so you always have what you need to hand
          Good portable chargers

  93. DreadfullyNice*

    I am interested in hearing input from professional event planners or hiring managers – does having a CMP (Certified Meeting Professional), a CMM (Certificate in Meeting Management) or CSEP (Certified Special Events Manager) matter? Which one is more useful in terms of being an attractive candidate for an job as Director of Events type roles?
    I’m asking as someone who has experience in event management and am now looking ahead at how to grow.

  94. Lazy Cat*

    I’m having a second round interview with a religious organization (in a corporate/non-religous position). I do not practice this religion (or any religion, really).

    Any suggestions for questions to ask? Following the religious rules is not a requirement for the job.

    I know, professionally, the person I would be working under, and I like them.

    1. Four lights*

      You could ask if they can describe any differences at their organization because they are religious vs a secular organization. You could ask about what percent of workers are/aren’t of that religion.

      1. Autumnheart*

        Maybe do some legwork on whether they do things like donate to anti-LGBTQ groups, exclude birth control coverage from their healthcare plan, etc. I don’t know whether it would be a question to ask at the interview (no idea if you’d get an honest answer) but there may be information on Glassdoor or elsewhere that could give you a better picture.

    2. Drago Cucina*

      I would clarify outside the job expectations. Is there a “morals clause” similar to those in teacher contracts (in both public and private systems)? In some government jobs there are restrictions on how much one can endorse/politic/lobby for any person or cause.

    3. Anon for this*

      Heya, queer atheist who worked for the Catholic diocese where I live for two years. I didn’t work specifically with the religious aspect, but it really did touch everything done there. I was essentially an event planner fwiw, so SOME interaction with the religious aspect was to be expected (you can’t plan a Catholic youth rally without a Catholic speaker!). Surprisingly, I was great at the job — probably better than if I had taken the job based on being super Catholic. To be frank, I stayed closeted about EVERYTHING because I needed the job desperately, but here’s what I would ask/think about if I was doing this again:

      — is there a morals clause in the handbook or contract? In the US they can’t discriminate in hiring for not following their religion, but they may/can fire you for violating the morals clause by, say, being in a same-sex relationship, committing adultery, having an abortion, etc.

      — what kinds of team-building or other extracurricular activities are there, and do they involve a lot of prayer/religious activities? For example, at the chancery, we were expected to do things like pray before every meeting, attend funeral masses as a group for deceased priests, and do explicitly Catholic professional development. Also, the Christmas party involved a local Catholic stand up comedian which made me want to die of secondhand embarrassment.

      — what kinds of interactions will you be having with the religious leaders and community, and how much knowledge of the religion is needed to do the job properly?

      — is there any kind of “modesty” related dress code to be aware of?

      — also, be aware that at mission-driven employers, there can be a loss of work-life balance and sketchy boundaries, so keep an eye out for that.

      I hope this helps!

      1. Lazy Cat*

        Thank you so much – the job is actually in a Catholic chancery (what a coincidence!), so this gives me lots to think about and dig into on their website.

  95. Yo-non for this*

    I share an office with my direct supervisor (we’re low on space) and it’s seriously annoying me. I can hear her on the phone from across the office into the kitchen, so she’s loud. She’s been listening to presentations lately which necessitated me listening to earbuds to concentrate. So she decided to listen in her earbuds (which was kind) but I could still hear everything and needed mine. She is hard of hearing but uses a hearing aid, which seems to work. She’s also a loud chewer and snacks constantly.

    I’m just peeved. Not really looking for advice but a place to vent.

    1. Jaid*

      *hugs* The lady who sits across from me sucks her teeth, or something. Not all the time, but when she does….*cringe*

  96. Openish Minded*

    First time poster, hi! I’m looking for some brightsides. I recently applied for a senior Worker position in a different state, which was advertised as Worker/Senior Worker. Where I am, my experience makes me qualified for senior roles. I snagged a phone interview with the hiring manager (my would-be boss), worked hard to prepare, and it went well! At the end, they impressed upon me that I would be doing hands-on Work and they really wanted me to understand that. I said of course- at smaller companies, it’s par for the course for even Senior Workers to work side by side with Workers and more junior people, and the hiring manager agreed.

    Afterwards, I heard from HR Lady that I had advanced to the next level and they wanted an on-site visit, awesome! HR went through the benefits and asked me my salary. I deferred, but clearly mentioned the range my research had told me was reasonable in their market. She said that the low number in my range was high and told me the budget for the position was 20k lower than my low number. I said I was still interested despite the difference, as my dollar can go a bit further in this state than where I live. We scheduled the on-site for 2 weeks from now.

    Two days later, I heard from HR again and this time was told that the previous number was not actually on the table, and instead I was given a range 10k to 20k lower than that. This puts me 20K lower than what they first told me and 40K lower than what several recruiters tell me I can ask for in a Worker or Senior Worker role where I live now. They asked if I was still interested and I said I was interested in the visit (booked already), but politely said I was surprised given my experience that I was being considered for the lower Worker role. She told me that perhaps I would be given Senior Worker in title, but not in compensation.

    I’m trying to keep an open mind about this, but obviously tumbling down like this is tough on my confidence. I’m trying not to hold it against this company explicitly – or should I? In the initial phone interview, the would-be-boss mentioned that they had a hard time filling this role, with many interviewing from out of state but turning down their offers. HR Lady later told me the ranges these applicants wanted were “too high.” Doing the math, no cost of living difference might be able to make up for such a big pay difference – it’s really hard for me to estimate. What do you guys think? Salary isn’t everything, but benefits wise they’re not offering anything special. What can I focus on push all of this out of my mind when I go down there and have a 2-day long interview?

    1. OP*

      I should add: where I am, Worker and Senior Worker roles are all over the place – the market is highly active here. Where I’m interviewing, they’re the only game in town, with very few competitors. If I didn’t like this job, and wanted to quit, I might actually be stuck as there’s nowhere to go.

      1. Anonforthis*

        Just from what you’re describing, it doesn’t sound as though their budgeted salary range is a realistic reflection of the marketplace for Senior Worker. Frankly, if there’s a 40K difference between the low end of what you thought was reasonable and what they are actually willing to consider, there’s a good reason why it’s been so hard for them to fill the position. I’d probably take a pass.

        1. valentine*

          It’s okay to cancel the on-site. What could you learn that will make a $40,000+ (because your low end was based on a lower COL) loss reasonable? It’s insurmountable.

          If you’re going to accept a COL-based pay cut, factor in whether it’s so low as to leave you stuck should the job or location not pan out.

      2. Mockingjay*

        Consider too, how many years you would have work to make up the salary difference, to get back to where you are.

        Basically these people want Senior Worker skills at a discount. It saves them money, it costs you money.

      3. Autumnheart*

        I would pass just on the fact alone that the pay is significantly under market. But if you were to relocate and then be stuck there being underpaid? Forget it. If you’re going to relocate, you may as well do it where they pay decently and/or where the job market offers choices. Doubly hilarious that the HR Lady tried to tell you that the *applicants* are wrong about how much the position should pay. That’s not how this works.

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          Exactly. If every applicant’s expectation is “too high,” that means your offer is too LOW.

      4. Frankie*

        Is it really worth your time to go on this trip? This is a sign of a place that does not recognize their market and does not want to pay what they need to pay. They already don’t value your work appropriately and that won’t change once you accept the job and start working.

        Are you going because you are reluctant to admit that this opportunity isn’t panning out? Them offering you lower and lower pay ranges is definitely reason enough to cancel on this trip.

    2. LaDeeDa*

      That is ridiculous. If they are having a hard time filling that role, it is because they aren’t offering a pay in line with what they are asking for. I would be upfront, and I wouldn’t bother. A $40K pay cut isn’t something I would even consider unless I was changing careers or just needed a job.

      Keep us posted!

    3. acctnt*

      I agree, sounds like the issue with them actually filling the position is because the keep low-balling qualified candidates. If everything is booked for the interview it wouldn’t hurt to go but I wouldn’t put too much else behind this interview or this company.

    4. A Simple Narwhal*

      I would run from this. The fact that they would openly say you could be given the senior title in job but not compensation?? Combined with the low salary I would run fast and far. Unless you left something out, I see nothing positive about this position.

    5. Wishing You Well*

      Sounds like many other hungry job seekers turned down this job – screaming red flags there.
      Please don’t spend 2 days of your life on this. Getting the title and all the work but not the salary? Others did the interview and said no thanks. Personally, I’d cancel the interview and tell them their salary is too low for you to even interview.
      Hope you find a reasonable job opportunity soon.

    6. The New Wanderer*

      I agree with the others. You *should* hold this against the company. The fact that they are so far off market rate and would ‘generously’ offer you the higher title but not the money is pretty blatant. Either this company will learn that they need to pay market rate or they will just keep having applicants bail from their low ball offers.

    7. Lilysparrow*

      I’m not sure why you are still planning to go or considering this position at all, unless you urgently need to move to this new city for personal/family reasons.

      They lowballed you twice and are now talking about a salary that’s one entire middle-class employee less than you expected.

      They know they are underpaying, and seem to think it’s the employee who are being unreasonable.

      They are reluctant to give you the title bump that you were looking for, and flatly stated that they won’t pay you for a senior position even if they give you the title.

      There are plenty of opportunities to move up in title and pay right when you are.

      Why do you even want to push all this aside and keep an open mind? These are exactly the things that should be uppermost in your mind.

      What benefit would you get out of this job at all? What’s the upside?

      The whole scenario sounds like a colossal waste of time – unless you really, really need to move to that location and are desperate.

  97. Nacho*

    How do you know what market rate is for your job if it’s difficult to directly compare what you do to similar positions? I work in Customer Service, but my company has some unique business practices that mean our CS jobs deal with a lot more angry customers than most, and they pay accordingly. That plus the super high cost of living in Seattle means I’m being paid about 20-25% more than what Glass Door says I should be. I’m applying for a promotion soon though, and I’d like to know what I should expect/ask for pay-wise, and it doesn’t help that everybody seems to be telling me I’m already highly overpaid for my current role.

    1. Llellayena*

      Can you take your current salary, compare it to what Glassdoor says you should be making currently then look at what it says for the new role and factor an equivalent percent? Basically, if you make 50k, and Glassdoor says you should be making 40K, if Glassdoor says the new role makes 48K, multiply that by 50/40 (125%) and ask for 60K. Or use that calc as the top of the asking range if you’re in agreement that you’re overpaid where you are.

  98. Project Manager*

    My resume is project manager, project manager, executive assistant. I’m looking for PM work again. Someone I asked to look over my resume asked me about it, because they thought it was weird I’d become an admin.

    The real answer is: it’s easier to make more as an EA. There are less hours, less work, less responsibilities, and much much much higher pay.

    But I’m getting bored as an admin.

    How do I say this tactfully in a cover letter?

    I’m considering if it’s even worth getting back into PM. Even Alison’s spreadsheet shows EAs making more than PMs.

    1. Akcipitrokulo*

      “I was offered the opportunity to work as an EA, and while I have enjoyed those challenges and have gained valuable experience, it has shown me that I am truly happiest in a PM role.”

      1. Project Manager*

        That is tactful, but you think that’s enough? Maybe it is. The person who gave me the feedback was kind of like “wtf why did you become an admin after 10 years?”

        1. A Simple Narwhal*

          I think you could say “I was interested in making a change/it fit what I wanted at the time/a good opportunity came along/etc” and then reiterate what Akcipitrokulo said.

        2. Gumby*

          Is there any way you can spin it as wanting to work at the company at which you are an EA? Like the company was the draw more than the position name?

        3. Friday afternoon fever*

          I’ll be a dissenter (to what I’ve read so far which is just to this point in the thread). I think if someone is asking you really candidly “wtf did you do this for?” you can also be really candid in your answer. I would not find anything wrong with “the EA opportunity I had offered much higher compensation than my PM role at the time so I was interested in making the switch!” And then reiterate what Akcopitrokulo said.

          1. Friday afternoon fever*

            Also… being an EA is hard! It’s not the same type of work as a PM and may not be “as hard” to some people, but it’s still difficult and it’s impressive to perform well in that role. It should not be taboo or cast aspersions on your judgement that you made that switch. You’re not saying “tried PM, tried EA, now let’s try VP (or something else very different)”. You’re saying “tried PM, tried EA, had good reasons for both and discovered I liked PM better so I’m looking to go back to that”

    2. AudreyParker*

      I don’t really have advice but interested in replies since I may be in a similar situation: I worked hard to get out of admin work and last full time position was assistant project manager, so I’ve been looking to focus on the PM skills in the current search but coming up empty and considering switching to EA since the salaries seem so much better. But I’m worried a) everything I hated about admin will be doubly bad in EA work so not actually a good choice, b) once I go back to an assistant role, I’ll never be able to get away because people will think there was a work-related issue that caused me to switch from PM to assistant rather than a pragmatic one. Just writing this out is making me think looking at EA would be a mistake! ;)

      (Actually, one suggestion is just to talk about missing the challenges of project management and looking forward to an opportunity to apply those skills again, and focusing on any PM-related tasks for your EA position on your resume, which is where I’m always afraid people are likely to derail.)

      1. Kendra*

        EA depends on the exec. You could be babysitting a grown person. You could have a lot of admin work or mostly phones. It depends a lot.

        1. AudreyParker*

          Currently trying to mentally rank which of those I hate more ;) But I’m sure it’s one of those roles that’s HIGHLY dependent on who you’re working for, so possibly even harder to find a good fit despite the number of EA positions available. Must be tough to filter during a search!

          1. Kendra*

            Yeah you pretty much have to apply and just interview and see. Recruiters can help match personalities sometimes.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      There will always be someone who wonders why people take a step back in terms of title at any given time. A lot of time we do it for that exact reason, pay or opportunity or we need a break from the responsibility.

      Remember that ONE PERSON telling you that they think it’s weird and a flag is just one person’s reaction. Explain you’re looking to get back into project management after you took a break to pursue another job opportunity as an admin. Talk about the way the duties cross over in various ways and they’re transferable skills.

      You need to get this one person out of your head though, they’re poisoning you thinking you did something wrong or like you can’t get back into another role.

      I’ve bounced from full business management to office/accounting management to EA status at one point because I just wanted a person to tell me what to do, I didn’t want to make decisions or have that responsibility after a decade of it wearing me out. Nobody has ever said “oh dear, why did you go into administrative work though?” they go “wow we’re glad you’re back in the saddle, let’s do this, I see the magic you did at Old Job and the reference it carries.”

      Sure. Some hiring managers will pitch your resume or start getting into interrogation tactics, you don’t want to work for those people who are so pigheaded, to be honest.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Also we legit hired someone recently who had gotten away from their desired role due to circumstances. [It was a bait and switch setup mostly, like they were hired to drive sales/marketing and were cast into a different role because the company decided to swerve a different directly and their needs changed. So they took on the role because sure-why-not. So when they wanted to move on next, they sent their resume, they had sales/marketing a few years back and we were interested to see what they had to offer, they explained the situation, we understood, they got back into their desired role!]

  99. Kristin*

    What kind of data scientist job can I get with the Coursera certificates? Are there any additional projects I should complete in order to “prove” I’d be good at the job?

    1. Tabby Baltimore*

      The links below will force this into moderation, but you can see answers to a question posted by Long time lurker back in 2017 that could be related to your question: “To those who have gotten data analyst or data scientist jobs without a computer science degree … how did you get into data analysis and data science?”
      (https://www.askamanager.org/2017/12/open-thread-december-22-23-2017.html#comment-1774486)

      Also, you can check here for a detailed answer to a question I posted back in March 2018 “What kinds of interview questions would you be asking at an entry-level interview?” for entry-level data science positions: https://www.askamanager.org/2018/03/knowledge-swap.html#comment-1908963

      The answers the other posters provided might give you a better idea of whether the Coursera certifications you’re considering will be worth your while or not. You can also search the AAM site on the word “Coursera” and see what has popped up more recently.

  100. Mazzy*

    My well has run dry, I’m no longer able to keep up socializing with some people at work. Now everyone thinks I’m in a bad mood. I’m not, I just don’t want to talk. There are a few social climber types at my job that dominate the social scene here and I’m just tired of their comments that suggest that they are somehow different or better than the rest of the group. There is also that odd dynamic where someone is upper management, but they are your age, and you feel like you could socialize, but there is a wall between you. Any maybe some of it is my fault. Last week, I did call someone out for pretending to own something I know they don’t. I guess I shouldn’t have said anything, but it’s such a bad dynamic for me – on the one hand, management wants a “we’re all friends” vibe, but then higher ups make you feel other than or less than, so how can we really have a connection?

    1. Colette*

      Thoughts.

      1) Some amount of pleasant interaction is normal and expected at work – i.e. part of the job. Are you struggling with depression or some other condition? If not, it sounds like it is time to find a new job.
      2) If someone is suggesting that they are better than the rest of the group, that is their problem, not yours – but it does not negate the requirement to be pleasant to your coworkers.
      3) Social interaction at work does not require sharing anything you don’t want to share, or being friends with your coworkers. It does require being pleasant (acknowledging your coworkers, smiling on occasion, saying things like “good morning”, “how are you doing”, “please”, “have a good weekend”)
      4) There is no reason you can’t have pleasant interactions with upper management, but you cannot be friends. The wall is a real thing.

      I’m a little concerned about you calling someone out – that sounds really adversarial, and isn’t a good idea at work. You can point out when someone says something untrue, but you’ll get better results if you do it by asking for clarification. But also, if you aren’t talking to people at work except to call someone out, that is really, really bad.

      1. Mouse Princess*

        To back up Colette – and not to armchair diagnose – but I had the SAME problem. I have a pretty toxic work environment but I also was struggling with depression and couldn’t keep up the normal conversation that’s expected at work. I finally sought a therapist after someone at work (inappropriately) told me that my mood had changed since I started and I broke down crying.

        1. Mazzy*

          I don’t feel depressed I feel more worn out from playing a game I don’t want to play. I don’t feel like one upping everyone. I don’t want to build connections by avoiding those “below” me and pursuing friendships with those I perceive as higher status. I just want to enjoy life! And maybe I have a little money, but if I’m going to get social status, it’s going to be for reasons other than what I earn or own. I just don’t want to play the game if those are the rules

  101. Jimmy Crack Corn*

    Today in, “OMG, they replied all!!!”

    Grandboss to all staff, “Hi all. I put this form on our website. Check it out. Thanks.”

    Reply All from middle manager: “I was just at (client site). We need to talk about Peggy.”

    OOOMMMGGG. Side note, everyone knows Peggy is a terrible worker, fights with everyone, and is generally useless. This email about Peggy is not a surprise, but should have definitely been a private matter.

    MM has now attempted to recall the message multiple times.
    You. Are. Just. Making. It. Worse.

    3. Pebbles*

      Even if everyone knows about Peggy, and Peggy knows that everyone knows, I gotta believe this would be mortifying for her.

      I am of the opinion that the “Reply All” button should be removed. Most people have not shown themselves capable of using it correctly. I don’t care if you do have a valid need for it, type everyone’s name in and consider your efforts as part of the greater good.

      1. Middle Manager*

        Yes and no. Maybe buried in a sub menu…But I’m equally annoyed when people don’t reply all when they need to.

        Example: Broad question is sent to a group. One person gives the answer, but doesn’t reply all, so no one else on the chain knows it’s been addressed, and then proceed to duplicate the effort of answering the question.

        1. LaurenB*

          I truly believe there should be a default pop-up when you choose reply all, either when you first select it or when you hit send, that asks if you want to reply to all. Why does it double-check if I want to send an item without a subject line but not if I want to send this email to my entire organization?

          1. Pebbles*

            We already have this option (or a similar one) built in. Whenever we send an email to a distribution list, the popup tells us how many people the email will be sent to. A high number should tell you to rethink your email. But my experience has been that people just blow by informational dialog boxes without really reading them so that they can get to whatever they need to. It’s not just an email issue either. I fix software bugs and I’ll ask “what did the error message say?” only to get “I don’t know, I didn’t read it.”

            1. Decima Dewey*

              In my library system, when you check a book in and it’s supposed to go to another branch for a hold, a dialog box pops up. And every few months there’s a list of “long in transit items” that both the sending library and the receiving library are supposed to check up on.

          2. Middle Manager*

            Now that I would be on board with for sure! It is prone to abuse and error, but I think reply all has some legitimate functions as well.

    7. Autumnheart*

      Hoo boy.

      As a silver lining, that middle manager will never Reply All again as long as they live.

    8. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      On the bright side, at least everyone else on the staff list didn’t immediately start replying-all to talk about Peggy as requested…

  102. Virginia Plain*

    I need to nip this issue in the bud before I become the subject of a letter!

    I am support staff in a field that shall remain nameless (I doubt any of my coworkers read this blog, but who knows), they’re in a field that is well-admire and quite well paid in my country (but not well-paid everywhere). I am starting to HATE my job with the passion of 100 suns. The actual work I do is fine, I don’t mind it. I also just finished a master’s degree in the field I work in (but not the field I am support staff in). I am now way overqualified for my position and I am just starting a job search.

    Anyway, I don’t know what has happened, but slowly over the past few months I have come to HATE working with the profession I support. All they do is complain about how “little” money they make (when in fact they make 3X what I make in this position), obviously everyone thinks they could earn more money… but it’s pretty tasteless to complain about how much you earn in front of people who earn 1/3 of what you make. I’m probably projecting a lot, but in my workplace I find this profession to be so arrogant and clueless and just, ugh, disrespectful? They’re very inconsiderate of the space I work in, often leaving it messy, not cleaning up after themselves, leaving shit in front of doors. Once my assistant manager, who belongs to this profession, put a cart in front of my office DOOR when it was closed because I was on the phone!!! Her excuse was that she “didn’t know I was there” when you could see that the lights are on from the window!!! All of these tiny things have built up so much that I find coming to work to be unbearable some days. I feel like none of the work I do is BARELY ever truly acknowledged or appreciated (besides getting an ugly cactus on support staff appreciation day). A friend of mine told me that it’s foolish to ever expect to be appreciated in any position these days, and maybe it’s true, but it still pisses me off!

    In some ways of the work other people do in our workplace. Maybe I’m just ranting and raving and it makes no sense. I find that I *hate* coming into work so much these days because I hate working with that profession. I have become so ridiculously passive aggressive and I feel pissed off all the time. I probably sound INSANE. I’m probably super passive aggressive here these days, and it’s just too much. I can’t keep feeling like this and acting like this. I somehow need to harness these feelings to propel my job search, but I just feel like a petulant child.

    It also doesn’t help that a lot of the people in this profession are working in their “dream job” and are probably “set for life” in many ways. They’ll never have to apply for other jobs outside of the organization, for example. They can’t really get fired, have a good pension, an amazing salary, etc. I feel like I am sooo far from where I want to be that I am filled with so much envy.

    I guess my question is, how the fuck can I make working here more bearable? What needs to change in my mind? I actually have a therapist appointment booked tomorrow (thank god) to deal with some of this, but I also want to hear from other people who might’ve felt like this before and survived??

    1. NotAPirate*

      I think the only thing you can do is leave. You are very resentful of them. Complaining about wages is pretty common in any job, absentminded people are common too. I don’t think the cart was malicious (no “Ooo i bet we can block her hallway”), because that level of petty would be pretty extreme to reach. Appreciation is not really a thing most places, it’s an exchange wages for work, no thank you’s needed. Sometimes appreciation when people picking up shifts as favors etc, or landing impressive clients.

      Do you have savings to be unemployed while job hunting? If it’s truly unbearable that’s always an option, or temping. If your rage is coming through you might be better off leaving on a good note than burning up bridges here. What can you do that you enjoy that can help balance out your rage in off work hours?

    2. Frankie*

      To be honest, from what you’ve written, a lot of this sounds like you are just ready to move on and are taking a lot of innocuous things kind of personally. The cart thing, for instance, sounds really innocent. Your door was closed, she put something in front of it. I’m someone who can take things too personally sometimes, and it’s all about riding out the moment, doing some internal reality-checking, and looking at things maybe the next day and reconsidering how I reacted.

      I do think being support staff, anywhere, can be rough. The hierarchy is very real and those who are not in support positions can be blind to it whenever it’s convenient to them. Maybe you’re ready for a break from all that. Also, the people in these dream jobs–what have they had to do to earn their way to these jobs? Maybe they got these opportunities handed to them, but that tends to be an exception rather than a rule. They’ve probably had to put their time in at jobs that were dissatisfying in one way or another. Maybe I’m off the mark, though.

      I’m glad you mentioned you are going to see a therapist, because it crossed my mind to suggest it. Not because you sound OMG CRAZYPANTS, but because it sounds like a lot of this is coming from within and it’s probably helpful to have someone (not on the internet) to sort through some of this stuff with. From what you’ve written I’m having trouble seeing why you are at quite this level of frustration–not that that means you shouldn’t feel this frustrated, just that there’s probably more to unpack here than you are writing here.

    3. Mazzy*

      This is interesting. I think it comes down to whether you have a life plan where you’re progressing in some way, or that you know you’ll be earning more in the future. You seem to resent their security, and that, I will disagree with others, is OK, because it’s a sign you need to make a change in your life.

      I know this may not help, but as per their attitude towards money. Like many people, I used to earn very little and now make a very good salary. My attitude about money also changed. Having an extra $1000 used to feel like a lot, and now it feels like nothing. I’m older and in a different league. Now I’m looking at home prices and realize $1000 or even $10,000 means little if you live in a high COL area and want to save on the side for the possibility of ever losing your job or have a medical emergency. When I was younger, I told myself I was going to appreciate money when I was making it, but then life changed around me.

    4. MissGirl*

      I’ll echo what the others have said. You’re done with this place and you’re building reasons why it sucks. Sometimes we do that to make us feel better about leaving. Remind yourself it’s okay to leave and look for a new job, but also that every job is going to have things about it you don’t like. Putting up with the bad stuff is actually part of the job.

      Do you have a plan forward, goals for yourself? Is your personal life in a good place?

      I was fairly grumpy in one job towards the end but noticeably brightened once I made a plan to go to grad school and change careers. I’m embarrassed about the noticeably part. These last months are what people are going to remember about you and you want it to be good.

  103. Anonymousaurus Rex*

    Well I told my boss on Monday that I’m moving halfway across the country in July for my wife’s grad school. I told her I knew it was a big ask, but I would love her to consider letting me stay with the company and work remotely. She said she’s going to talk to HR about logistics and think about whether that’s the right thing for our department.

    I’m thinking she will say no, or at least, if I were in her position, I would say no to me. I have 1-2 meetings per month on average that I’m supposed to be here in person for, though I do already work remotely (from the same city as my company) the majority of the time. The thing is, I almost wish she would say no–I’d love the excuse to take a few weeks off of work altogether for the move and then start a job search in my new city. But I’d be insane not to at least attempt to take my West Coast salary to the Midwest, especially as my wife will be in school with only a small stipend to support us until I find something new. So I guess I’m not sure how much to push the issue.

    I also don’t know how long I should wait for an answer–my moving plans, including timing and things like whether we will rent or buy a house kind of depend on by boss’s decision. What’s reasonable? I’m thinking two weeks before I ask if she’s decided? Is that too long? too short? We’re visiting the new city over Memorial day to look for housing options, and it would be great to know by then at least.

    1. Lepidoptera*

      Would you be open to traveling back for those meetings? My company allowed several long-distance movers to go remote, on that stipulation. It seems to be working.

      1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

        Yes! I even offered to help pay for some of the travel. (Though as the job is located in California, I think it would actually be illegal for them to take me up on that offer.) It would work out to about 10 or so one-day trips back from July through December though. Unfortunately it’s tricky that the meetings are literally 1-3 hours long for a single day, but I’d have to fly in and out for them.

      2. Ali G*

        The bigger questions are:
        Will there be a salary adjustment given the difference in COL?
        Is the company willing to take on the added expenses of having a worker in a different state (it adds operational and HR issues due to varying labor laws among states)?

        1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

          There is already at least one remote employee in the state where I’m moving, so I know there’s precedent and operational issues have been worked out before for this state, so I’m hopeful!

          The salary hit, I imagine, will be huge if I leave my current position, though COL is much lower in the new Midwest city. I’m currently very well compensated, but I also know that I’d be fine on a smaller salary when my housing costs are lower than they are here in California. However, I would absolutely love to bank the difference in pay and really save–especially as we hope to move back to the West Coast in a few years!

        2. Anonymousaurus Rex*

          Oh, I think I misunderstood your first comment. I really hadn’t thought that they might adjust my salary! But of course, that makes sense! I’m over here Scrooge McDucking thinking of living on my current salary in a much lower COL area…but you’re right. That would make total sense to do from their perspective, and it might even out the travel costs of flying me out for the meetings. I’d have to see how big the salary adjustment would be to see if that made sense to me.

      3. A Simple Narwhal*

        That seems like a good idea! Especially if you could have those meetings close to each other so you only would have to come out once.

        And if she says yes to remote work, why not ask for a few weeks off for the move? Either with PTO or unpaid time, you might be able to get that “break” for moving and keep your west coast salary.

        1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

          Unfortunately, I am not at all in control of scheduling the in-person meetings, and they tend to be with 20+ people. They’re already scheduled through the end of the year, and it would mean 10+ trips back to CA between July and December. I’m fine with that much travel theoretically, but it could get expensive for either me or my employer. The meetings are also all over California, so I already travel to go to them, just not nearly as far. With a few exceptions, it’s a drive instead of a flight now.

          I’ll have to take at least a little time off for the move, but I just don’t have the PTO banked (or the capacity to have no one doing my job) to take more than a week if they let me go remote. If that happens though, I’ll deal. It will be much easier to justify paying for extra help moving, etc. if I get to keep my job.

          1. valentine*

            The meetings were based on your current location. If you haven’t already, make a plan for how you could call in to them and present that to your boss. If she approves the WFH, but wants you physically at the meetings, you can reassess for the new year.

  104. ANONTODAY*

    My nonprofit sector workplace is in the process of a union vote, joining a bunch of white-collar organizations in our sector who have unionized. However, there has been a real lack of clarity about what this might mean for people in the bargaining unit. Both sides are very extreme in how they describe what we might expect if the union vote is successful. My questions are these:

    -Is anyone here in a white collar, non public sector union?
    -What has your experience been like? Overall positive? Negative? Neutral? And why?
    -If you have experienced the same employer both unionized and non-unionized, what has changed for you?
    -Have there been any unintended consequences?

    I would love to hear some real world stories that aren’t coming from the union organizing committee or the management side.

    1. Penelope Pitstop*

      I’m in an unionized, white collar office and it has worked out great for me. Our bargaining unit has negotiated lots of PTO, health insurance with no premium and no deductible, and my salary has increased 30 % in the last 3 years. But the best thing is knowing that someone has your back if you’re treated unfairly by management. At my previous non-union retail job, everyone felt like they had a target on their back, if they were making more than the starting wage.

  105. Lauz*

    I resigned. I have never resigned from anything before.

    I have spent the past few weeks ignoring it and dreading it and worrying about whether it is the right thing to do and what reaction I’d get.

    I knew logically it would probably be okay. But the past few days I have been so anxious. Today was the last day I could resign giving full notice before the start date of my new job. I have been putting it off so much. Approaching panic attacks just trying to convince myself to do it.

    I got up the courage and did it. Held my breath, waited for the world to end.

    My boss was so happy for me. Grinning and almost teary. She said I deserve the career progression and the big pay rise, that my development over the past few years has been getting me ready for a move like this.

    I am so full of gratitude and relief. The tension has evaporated from my shoulders and I am smiling without worry at the back of my head.

    Dreading a thing is worse than doing it.

  106. L. S. Cooper*

    How long should I wait before following up with a hiring manager?

    For context: I applied to a position at this company almost a year ago, have interviewed a couple of times, but didn’t make it. Each time, however, they’ve reached out to me again to ask if I’m interested in coming in again. The most recent time, I told the hiring manager who emailed me that I was completing a course on full-stack web development, and that I wasn’t interested in the customer service role, but I would love to talk about any development openings. She asked me to email her again once the course was finished.

    Now, I did email again this past week– slightly before the course is over, but I made it clear that I was mostly seeking information. They seem to hire developers in batches, and their Glassdoor reviews make it seem like they like to hire people early in their careers. (It was actually a complaint about a lack of advancement, but I need those 3-5 years of experience that everyone else wants, and based on the salary reports they give it’d be pleeenty for a single person to live off of. Anyway.)

    The reason I emailed (and I did make this clear to her) was that I saw a job posting for one of these low-level developer jobs while hunting, and wanted to see when they’re going to be hiring for the next batch of new developers, because I don’t want to miss it. (I have a job, but not one that pays enough to live on my own, and while I’m grateful to my parents for letting me live with them, I am about to go insane.)

    Was I out of line to email a bit earlier than asked? I acknowledged it was early, but it isn’t by all that much, since the class ends on May 11th. I’m definitely feeling a tad impatient because I think this place is my best shot at getting my foot in the door, but I also don’t want to be forgotten. How long should I wait to follow up?

    Also, I think I may have given her the wrong date in my first email (graduation day instead of the day class ends)– should I email her again to correct myself, so she understands how close I am to being done?

    1. fposte*

      I wouldn’t, unless the grad date was December rather than May. You’re not going to be forgotten in a week. I’d email when the course is actually over, which gives you a reasonable two-week cushion and a valid new piece of information.

      1. L. S. Cooper*

        That’s true! I’ll also have my finished portfolio and resume, so I’ll have a finished project to show for my trouble. (And I can take this off the list of “stuff to worry about in the next week and a half”, which is getting to a stupidly long list indeed.)

  107. GriefBacon*

    culture?

    I was asked in an interview (I’m not the hiring manager) this week, and the answer I gave felt pretty common for nonprofits — somewhat laid back, but everyone’s serious about their job and passionate about their work. It got me thinking about how I’d describe previous company cultures, and wondering what other people say in that situation specifically.

    1. GriefBacon*

      Aaand, my phone cut off my actual question. Which was: How would you describe your company culture?

    2. De Minimis*

      I think the only times I really could give a good answer to that question would be in describing some of the negatives of places I’ve worked. I’d probably never do that during an interview. I had one of my worst experiences at my previous job due to poor cultural fit, but it’s doubtful I could have found that out [there were Glassdoor reviews, but they weren’t specific to my department/job.] People didn’t work together and it was exceptionally disorganized and inefficient even for government.

      I guess there’s language you can use that gives an accurate picture without being too negative. Competitive, team-focused, etc.

  108. Karen from Finance*

    So, I’d been trying not to come here to complain about StartupHell and focus on learning as much as I can while I’m here, and on an escape plan. But something happened this week that set me off.

    For context: it’s a tech startup of 80-90 people where I’m the sole person in a controllership position (no one else has “controller” in their title or duties), reporting to the male CFO and then to the (all-male) company founders (who are the “board”). Our main language is Spanish.

    This week, after some discussion of some financials, in an email thread where I’m copied, the CEO said to commercial: “tell the client we’re going over this with our Controllership Director”. But “director” is a male-gendered word in Spanish (“directora” for female). We do not have a Controllership “director”, but if there was, it wouldn’t be a guy, it would be me. If they’d meant my boss, they’d have said “with our CFO” or “finance manager” or whatever else, but also, my boss wasn’t providing the information, I was.

    I think the CEO thought it would sound more important to the client with that fancier title, but also, if the fictitious person who had that title was male. I didn’t do anything, I just ignored the email and went for a walk. It just feels so demeaning. This isn’t the only time something like this has happened, only the most recent.

    Do I have any room for action other than quitting?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This reminds me of the other day when I got a government notice that was addressed to “Dear Sirs”, I still get this in some cover letters as well. It’s always hard to know if it’s actual malicious sexism but often it’s just out of stupidity on their side, they have “stock phrases” or “titles” or whatever that they pick from and they end up being outdated or incorrectly gendered.

      I think you’re at the BEC stage is why it’s really sticking you in the ribs each time this kind of nonsense happens. I think you could push back and say “who are you even referring to, we don’t have a person with that title here, or did we change my title? If that’s the case, it should be “female-gendered” wording. They seem to think that pushing back and arguing with them isn’t bad by any means, they kind of like it because they’re bullheaded men in that regard. So just wave the red flag and challenge their wording [internally of course, don’t reply all and loop the customer in ;) as tempting as it may seem]

  109. Entry Level Marcus*

    Why aren’t managers changing their hiring practices in response to the good economy? You’d think it was still 2012 if you just looked at companies’ hiring and employment practices.

    We know that wage growth is still barely keeping up with inflation, and anecdotally, and certainly in my experience, employers are also still extremely picky when hiring: requiring 2+ years of experience for “entry level” jobs, posting job ads listing an unreasonably large number of skills as “required”, being unwilling to hire and train candidates with non-traditional/less experienced backgrounds who have potential (especially in the private sector), and so on.

    Maybe it’s different for mid- and senior-level positions, but for young people it still seems like the good economy has not improved the job market as much as you would think. I graduated college a few years ago, and so I know a lot of people who graduated college over the past couple of years. Everyone who didn’t have an engineering degree took 6+ months to find their first full-time job. But the economy was and is supposedly good when they graduated, and supposedly there’s a shortage of workers in many fields. It really doesn’t make sense to me.

    1. L. S. Cooper*

      It’s an issue even with software, which is astounding to me! I know I’m struggling to even get an email back or find a job that DOESN’T call for 3-5 years of experience, and I’m not the only one.

    2. Maya Elena*

      Is the shortage in the fields your friends are applying for jobs though?
      There are clearly some very struggling industries right now, like news and journalism.
      Tech and healthcare are growing, and certain areas of the latter will take anyone they can get.
      Also, a lot of the job shortages appear to be in the trades.

    5. Bananatiel*

      Could also be a location thing. I live in the midwest and the economy of my city is booming but as a whole the state is VERY MUCH not booming so it’s not uncommon for it to take forever for someone to find a new job.

    6. AnotherAlison*

      I work for a company that is extremely busy and having a hard time hiring. We are actually in engineering so YMMV. We’re hiring a lot of new grads, but we need experienced people. We’re so busy that you need people who can hit the ground running. I can barely get a warm body to staff my project, so the 5 engineers I have are working OT. A new grad requires a lot of one-on-one training and takes 6 months to a year to do much useful work.

      1. Entry Level Marcus*

        Sure, but if your company made it standard practice to hire new grads every year like clockwork and train them up you’d have a fresh supply of useful workers who could hit the ground running every year (my understanding is that many companies had programs like this before the recession). Sure, not all would stay, but that’s the price you pay for a strong (for the workers) labor market.

        1. AnotherAlison*

          We actually do that. We hired all thru the recession. Lot of people who graduated and started back in ’08 are in leadership roles. We are in kind of an unusual situation now. We had a large increase in market share and are not on a typical growth curve for our industry.

    7. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      To be honest, I think the “booming economy” is hiding the fact that most of the jobs that are booming are in retail, food service, or warehouse/delivery jobs.

  110. Seeking Second Childhood*

    When we moved to this section of the building, I put a small jar of hot sauce in the fridge… hadn’t had a reason to use it until today… and today it’s nearly empty.
    And so the kitchen woes begin.

    1. Sales but not sales*

      It doesn’t solve the dilemma if you have food that actually needs to be refrigerated but maybe buy hot sauce that doesn’t need to be refrigerated? Sriracha is one!

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      Ugh I hear that. I remember bringing in a thing of specialty creamer and put my name allllll over it, only to come back later and find most of it gone. I had gotten the bigger one that required refrigeration because getting a bunch of the small ones that could sit in my desk seemed wasteful (and was more expensive).

      Also for some reason I misread it as a “small jar of hot fudge” and I was like oh delightful! What a nice treat to have at the office. TGIF I suppose.

    3. Autumnheart*

      I think that storing large containers of something in the communal fridge for one’s long-term sole personal use is really pretty inconsiderate, honestly. The office fridge is not the place for one’s personal groceries. It should be limited to daily storage for things that will be taken home at the end of the day. Either keep the bottle at home and bring in a single serving with one’s lunch, or get the individual packets and keep them at one’s desk. Taking up communal fridge space is how you wind up with people using your stuff, and/or a fridge full of old yuck that nobody will throw out.

      1. Friday afternoon fever*

        This is so dependent on the size of the fridge and number of people using it…. definitely not across the board inconsiderate.

        However if it’s a condiment, it’s unlabeled, and your office has a habit of having communal condiments or milk etc OR your office is full of jerks and you know that, it’s not very reasonable to expect your condiment to go unused by others.

        Every communal fridge should have a regular full clean out to prevent old yuck. Our fridge is full of individual condiments, we have never run out of room due to condiment takeover, we clean it regularly, and we are all able to comport ourselves in a respectable and respectful fashion.

    4. Jaid*

      My coworker mummifies anything she puts in the fridge – plastic wrap, paper towel and rubber bands. It seems to work, because anyone would move on to a simpler item…

  111. MV*

    I think my work group is going to all quit and I’m having trouble trying to figure out how to manage. 2 people on my work team are totally overwhelmed with their jobs with no help or additional resources from management. I try to help as much as possible but I am junior to them and cannot take over a lot of their assigned work. I also have a pretty full workload. It has resulted in a lot of tears from them with me just listening and saying positive things while they calm themselves down. This reached a head this week when we had a person come in to teach a training and one of my group members asked for advice on how to handle it when things get very tough. The trainer did not realize this was a 2 year battle of constantly being overwhelmed and responded that sometimes you need to suck it up and get though it. My coworker left the room crying shortly after because she felt belittled and that the situation was hopeless.
    Any advice on what I can do? I try to focus on me and my work to avoid being dragged into the negativity but I don’t want to be uncaring.

    1. Friday afternoon fever*

      It’s awesome you are so supportive. It’s also not your responsibility to fix this. If this is the goal you want, next time someone gets weepy or overly negative and you want to exit, try saying something like – “That sounds really tough. I understand where you’re coming from and I actually have realized I need to spend less time talking about this because I get sucked into it and can’t focus on my work as well” (that can be a white lie) “But let me know if you ever want ….”

      And offer things like taking on discrete tasks / assignments where possible, or getting lunch together with a ban on all work related conversation

  112. Lepidoptera*

    Disagreeing with a friend over a job title.

    My bestie got hired for a cat herding job that was a step up in responsibility and pay, but not in title. She attempted to negotiate to Senior Cat Herder, but was shot down by her very-regimented boss. She likes the work and the staff, so she let it go. Two years later, regimented boss left, and replacement boss is open to the idea of making her title what it should have been all along. This will probably go through in the fall.

    Bestie thinks she should change her LinkedIn/resume/etc. to show that she was Senior Cat Herder the whole time, because no part of the job other than the wording has changed, and it’s what she deserved all along.

    I think she’s going to run into trouble down the road doing that, and should stick to the actual timeline despite the relative unfairness.

    Thoughts?

    1. H.C.*

      I personally wouldn’t do it, since reference/background checks might still turn up her old title w that org – which would then require some explaining from her, if she’s even given that opportunity.

    2. Gloucesterina*

      Won’t it look “better” to appear to have advanced at her current organization, if in title only?

      1. Bananatiel*

        This is what I’m thinking. I would have been tempted to do the same in my last job because I was essentially a director in my responsibilities but held an entry-level role (hello dysfunctional workplace!). Had I actually gotten a title change in that job it would have been nice to show that I had actually been “promoted”

      2. Rusty Shackelford*

        Unless someone wants “three years of experience as Senior Cat Herder” and her Linked In shows she only has one year.

    3. post it*

      What kind of trouble do you foresee? If someone somehow found out, the reasonable thing to do would be to ask, and she could honestly say these were her duties all along and her second boss agreed to change it to reflect that (and would also attest to that fact).

      On the other hand, I’m wondering how she would reflect the fact that her title changed but she had the higher level duties all along. Because if she puts both titles down as one job, with just the higher level duties, imo that’s confusing.

      1. Lepidoptera*

        Basically what H.C. mentions–reference checks and the like. Some rando in H.R. is probably going to know nothing more than the words on a page, so her history of being denied the right title may be entirely left out of the conversation. Getting more context requires extra time and effort, and people giving or getting references are often unwilling to bother.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      References ask about their last title usually, they don’t ask for a run down of all their title history in my experience as a person who receives employment verification notices.

      I also regularly get people who will ask me “is that the same as X?” and I have to correct myself because sometimes a title never gets stuck in an employees head, they’re just like “I ran the chop saw, I’m a chop saw runner…” “No bro, you’re a production worker but yeah, he ran the chop saw.” kind of ordeal.

      A senior title is vanity in most aspects and if someone confirmed “Cat Herder” then they’re not going to be all “BUT They said SENIOR, they lied/embellished”.

      So I think there’s a lot of overthinking and worry involved. I think she just needs to do whatever she wants to with that kind of added senior title.

      It’s different than when it’s completely different roles. I’ve had AP/AR clerks tell me they were full cycle bookkeepers having never touched the other segments of books other than their dedicated AP or AR status and I just tossed their resume out with contempt. Now that, that bites you in the face.

  113. Anonymous praise-shy manager*

    I have a conundrum about how to get my employee to stop complimenting me (and no, this is not intended as a humble brag). I’m in my late 20s but in a director role, and manage two people who are both around my age. We all have the same graduate degree. The employee in question has been on my team about 10 months and is a solid performer. We get along well on a personal level and he often asks me about professional development and recommendations on advancement, which I’m happy to discuss as I’m a couple years further out of school than he is. My problem is that he often gives me compliments about how I handle meetings, the work that I do, or being young and in a director role. He seems genuine about it but it makes me feel very uncomfortable as I feel that praise and compliments should generally flow down, and that employees shouldn’t need to compliment their managers all the time. I try to deflect when he says these things with language about how we have a great team and that we all work hard to get the work done, but anyone have suggestions for language to address this directly? I do praise his work and give specific examples about things he’s done well but I’m worried that since we’re peers age-wise he feels like he needs to do that in return.

    1. Problem Like Maria*

      Are you by chance female?

      I’ve experienced men who were not senior to me, or not in my field, extend compliments that ultimately just feel patronizing. I don’t know why they do this, or how to make it stop.

        1. valentine*

          I think there was a letter like this. It’s totally patronizing. Like who asked you?! Why are you making pronouncements?

          You can tell him to stop and that it’s patronizing and smells like sexism.

  114. Coverage Associate*

    Interview today. I was up twice in the night with stomach problems and only the fourth suit I tried on would zip. So the omens are not propitious. Hoping I can shake it off before the interview, while actually getting stuff done at my current job.

    I would appreciate tips on answering the inevitable “why are you looking for a new job?” question when I am usually pretty happy where I am, but want to keep my options open.

    1. Akcipitrokulo*

      If you reframe it in your head and answer “why are you interested in THIS job” – then mention the positives “While I’m very happy at teapots inc, I was excited by the opportunity this role would offer to branch into teacups…”

    2. Troutwaxer*

      You had a bad dress-rehearsal. That’s a good omen for opening night! (Just be prepared to handle sartorial issues with some elan so you can demonstrate that you’re good in a crisis!)

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      “I wasn’t actively looking to leave my current job, but I like to see what’s out there, and this one jumped out at me because of X…”

  115. Nessun*

    I got a promotion to manager in December, and one of the individuals in my group who was hired three years ago is having difficulty understanding that I am not her admin anymore. I’m constantly getting requests to please fax things or finalize things or book meetings which are no longer my concern – and there is another admin! I’ve asked her performance manager to explain my new role to her and I’ve said to her myself that she should send these things to the admin. So today, that admin is away, and I just got a request to send a fax “ASAP”. OH, the snark is now real. Managed to tone down my email to “If this is a rush, perhaps you should attend to it yourself, as my duties as a Manager unfortunately have to take precedence.” And copied her PM.

    I am so done with today. If I don’t bite someone’s head off by EOD, I will be stunned. Stunned, I tell you.

    1. Akcipitrokulo*

      “Sorry, but as previously mentioned this task is not part of my new position.”

      Rinse and repeat.

      But urg… so, so rude of her!

      1. Conversations I Don't Want to Have*

        Yeah, we’re in headdesk territory now. Apparently she doesn’t know how to fax something, hence the request. Did I mention she’s in a different office, in a different time zone?! There are at least 5 people in your building who could show you that – why didn’t you ask any of them?! (She did eventually find someone to show her.)

        I’m hoping this at least illustrates to her why I am not the right person to ask. Ever. Again.

        1. valentine*

          If you can, filter either all her emails or those with fax and the like to autoreply “Gentle reminder: If you need admin support, contact Star” and then to go into a folder you check weekly or monthly.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      This is delightfully snarky but probably too subtle, believe it or not, because “my duties as a Manager have to take precedence” does kind of imply that if you weren’t so busy managing, you’d be happy to fax for her. So if there’s a next time, I’d go with “As I’ve told you before, it’s no longer my role, and you need to take this type of request to Fergus instead. Please discuss with your PM what you should do if Fergus is unavailable.”

    3. Dr. Anonymous*

      Next comes, “oh, I think you sent this to me by mistake. It should go to an admin.”

  116. Sales but not sales*

    First time posting but I’m thinking about a career change so I’m seeking some advice. I’ve been working in sales ops for 4 years now but am looking to move into marketing when I get a new job as it more aligns with my interests of growth and my major (communications).
    My dilemma is most of the jobs posted for the salary range I want ($50-$60k Boston area) ask for more skills than I have right now. They want experience with html, HubSpot, google analytics, video editing, etc. I don’t have experience with those but I am familiar with marketing as I work with them on creating materials and helping with events in my current job.
    Is the salary range I want too high for someone with little experience in marketing? (I currently make $48k so that is why I don’t want to go lower than $50k) Should I take classes in html and get certified in google analytics before applying even though I want to leave soon?
    Any advice from people in marketing would be helpful! Thanks!

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Sadly, yes you are looking for a higher range than what your skill-set is worth at this point. To change into marketing, you’ll have to take it on the chin and take a lower salary in order to get those skills that they’re looking for.

      You may be able to find someone to take a chance and let you learn on your feet, so please don’t not send out a resume and fish for it. But just keep a reality check that it’s a stretch.

      If you don’t have directly transferable skills and still require quite a bit of learning of desirable skills, you will always have to take a more entry level role in the end unless you get that company that falls in love with you and has a lot of room to learn on the ground level.

  117. I Need a Snack*

    I am hiring two positions right now that vary in level of experience. I have a set budget for salaries and can slice it any way I want. For the higher level position, I offered a salary at the top of the candidate’s salary range, expecting them to come back and negotiate it higher (they are not new to the workforce, but have changed careers from a large corporation to a small/mid-size non-profits), leaving me $5,000 to play with. They ended up accepting the salary I offered! Now I feel bad because I have more money to give them! I could use it for the other lower level position, but if I offered the top of the range for that candidate – it still leaves me $5,000. I’d rather give it to higher level position since they have more responsibility, but how do I navigate that? Am I overreacting and shouldn’t feel bad about this? I am definitely not paying them below the market or anything. Thanks for your input!

    1. irene adler*

      You’d be ‘Coolest Boss of the Year’ if you increased the higher level candidate’s salary by $5k.
      Or, maybe wait for 6 months and then give them a little bonus-assuming they work out well.

    2. LaDeeDa*

      If you can’t use that $5000 for training/development/conference etc, then when the formal offer is extended just tell them, “we are able to offer $5000 more than the verbal offer, due to budgeting changes. I hope that is ok *wink wink laugh laugh*” They will be thrilled.

    3. Autumnheart*

      I don’t suppose you could hang onto the $5000 and use it to reward them at review time?

  118. Anon here*

    Ugh I hate posting so late, but I’ll try anyway…

    Do most people who apply for internal positions, going from non-exempt to exempt, get offers that are less than what they are currently making? This seems to be the rule and not the exception at my company. And we’re not making a lot of overtime where current salary would vary wildly due to excess hours.

    After a few months of interviewing, testing, etc., I was told I was going to be hired for a promotion. HR reaches out to say the hiring manager is thinking of offering me XX. I tell them, but that is less than I make now. They misstate my salary at what I am scheduled for (we are scheduled for a 35 hour week but everyone works closer to 38-ish) and only offered 1-3K more which comes out to less. I say offered but they seemed to be fishing to see if I would take a low offer, no official offer was made. I was also told the range, which would have gone higher and been acceptable but was informed they wouldn’t bring me in at the high end of the range. Funny, my current role I was hired at the higher end of that range but I didn’t want to argue and simply told them I would think about it and get back to them.

    I declined the position. I felt that was appropriate but I am curious, is this standard? Or is it my company that seems to feel comfortable treating internal candidates this way? Also, if anyone has any tips on how I go back to my current role and get past the anger, I’d love to hear them. I’m totally working a “Love The One You’re With” philosophy at the moment but am having a hard time not seething almost all day long.

    Thanks in advance.

    1. Troutwaxer*

      What is good, Anon?

      “To crush HR, drive them before you, and to hear the lamentation of the vermin!”

    2. Autumnheart*

      It’s pretty common to be offered a lower salary if one is going from a contractor position to an employee position, because the employer would be paying FICA and offering benefits instead of the employee covering those costs. So the salary is lower, but the net pay is roughly similar.

      Maybe there’s a reason for a job that would pay less than the level below it (e.g. skilled labor vs. people-manager) but it does seem pretty off.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s really not too common for a promotion to ever come at a cost to the employee. However I assume here they offer you a little less because that’s a guaranteed amount no matter your hours, whereas they can easily cut your hours if they really wanted to as an non-exempt employee. It gives them more spending control.

      That’s nonsense and to be honest, unless you’re making a healthy sum and a couple thousand more or less won’t really register to you, don’t ever accept exempt status, it’s a scam.

  119. siege mustache*

    Does anyone have methods for dealing with managers who blame their reports for things that aren’t their fault? We had a tech demo yesterday to get all employees in my department initiated into our project management system, and when a few of our junior employees signed in and had a different looking screen than everyone else, this manager said several times that they had “signed in wrong” in an irritated voice when in actuality the manager herself had neglected to give them the proper access. She apparently knew this was the issue, too, when she was chastising them!

    The junior employees confided in me that the same manager often blames them for not moving projects forward when she has neglected emails and messages letting her know her input was required on certain steps. These employees are keeping this department afloat in a very intense time for us, and I’d like to help make them more comfortable before they decide to cut and run.

    1. Naomi K*

      Sounds pretty similar to my manager.

      I have started sending follow-up emails to him regularly on items that need his attention. That way he can’t pretend he hasn’t heard of it, and “I sent you three emails” is a better rebuttal than “I sent you one email three weeks ago”. It has made me feel a lot less stressed and more like things are securely in his court rather than mine. Depending on if you all work in the same space, maybe the junior employees can pop in her office after sending an email, saying something like, “Hey, I just sent you an email with something that needs your OK – would you mind checking it over today so we can get to the next step by X deadline?”

      I hope things work out for your juniors!

      1. siege mustache*

        Unfortunately we’re all spread out across two different facilities and a remote WeWork space where the juniors are right now, so popping in isn’t exactly feasible. I’m not sure if they meant she ignores follow-up messages and emails as well as the initial email, though! I’ll let them know it’s okay to send nudges in case they aren’t. I’m having a meeting with them this afternoon about a new project and I think we’ll do a sidebar so I can get a better sense of how far this goes. Thank you for your help!

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      These managers don’t change and should be avoided, I wouldn’t put up with that kind of nonsense for long. Seriously. If you aren’t in a job where management changes pretty steadily, don’t hang around for very long and let them hang all these things on your necks. It won’t do you any good, you won’t succeed when someone is constantly pushing you down over that kind of stuff.

      It’s a lot of CYA in that setup. Keep notes and be willing to defend yourself to someone else in the chain if necessary. Don’t worry about throwing this dillweed under the bus since they love trampling over you at any chance they get. Bad. Manager. Bad.

      1. siege mustache*

        I was afraid of this. Luckily she isn’t my direct manager, but she’s unfortunately very high up in our small and nepotism-tastic company and unlikely to leave or hand off her department any time soon. I’ll pass on your suggestions to the juniors and hope they’re charitable enough to stick around long enough to get us in a better situation. Thank you!

    3. Me*

      I have a manager like this (among other non stellar qualities things) – I’ve been here 10 years and I’m preparing to walk because of him.

      I’m hoping you have power of this manager?

      Shut it down. Point blank. Give them specific examples of what they are doing, why it is bad and demoralizing and also makes them look like a jerk, and how they are expected to handle things – i.e. determining what the issue is and resolving it, not spewing blame.

      Also look a bit closer – I doubt you’ll find this is the only nasty bad manager quality this person has.

      1. Me*

        Oh and if you don’t have direct authority, but merely standing as a more senior employee, still do a version of the same except instead of telling them, suggest that they are undermining their own authority when they rush to blame without assessing the issue and that it makes them look incompetent. No one with that kind of ego wants others to perceive them as incompetent.

        My tactic is to without saying that my boss is wrong, say blatantly and publicly, actually it appears the issue is x. You, boss, will need to do y, to fix it. But then I’m gvnt so I can’t be fired for that.

        1. siege mustache*

          Unfortunately I don’t have the power of the manager. I’m managed by another person in the department who has equal power to her but is incredibly conflict avoidant. I do have a unique skillset that gives me some leverage to use your suggested language. Thank you for that, because I do want to support these employees!

          I have a meeting with them later today to talk about a project and will see if there are other issues they’re having that they feel comfortable talking to me about.

          1. Me*

            Sometimes just knowing that other see the bad behavior and are trying to stand up for you to the extent it’s in their power, is enough to make things manageable until an internal move or something else comes along. Plus dealing with that crap long enough has a habit of acclimating you to toxic=normal.

            So kudos for seeing what’s up and letting this junior staffers know that you both see them, the situation and affirm for them that it is not ok.

    4. Drago Cucina*

      Yeah, unless someone above the managers requires a change, it’s not changing. Toxic bosses rarely take responsibility for creating the problems. My only suggestion is to document, document, document so you can show that you did your part. I had a boss that I tried never to have a one-on-one meeting with. She would give approval to a procedure and then get upset when I did it. I had to have witnesses that could say, “Yes, we agreed to do this.”

    5. siege mustache*

      Update: I spoke with the junior employees in a meeting today and asked them if there were any other alarming behaviors. It was like a dam broke! I’m taking some of it with a grain of salt because I’m sure every employee gets frustrated with their manager, but even then it’s bad. It sounds like this woman has no understanding of how their particular jobs work which leads to unrealistic promises to our CEO about how feasible projects will be, in addition to other small things (getting PA when she thinks no one has told her a plan when it was discussed in an email chain she was included on, texting her reports’ personal phones about urgent projects she’s ignored until 10pm). I mentioned following up on emails with other emails and they confirmed she neglects those as well, and they are afraid to call her because then things she tells them will have no written record to point back to.

      One of the junior employees is already job hunting, and the other says she’s planning on doing the same after waiting a month to support her mentor’s workload while he takes his first vacation in 2 years. They both started less than six months ago! It’s very disheartening.

  120. Gloucesterina*

    Is it typical for larger employers’ HR sites (let’s say, a massive university system) to lack a means for applicants to withdraw their submitted applications on the site?

    I searched the help menu for this particular HR site, but the instructions for withdrawing an application instruct users to check a box that I cannot find for the life of me, so I’m guessing the help material hasn’t caught up to the actual site.

    Withdrawing my application isn’t critical, I’d just like to spare myself the small ego hit of an auto-reject email!

    1. Bananatiel*

      Because you specifically mentioned massive university system– my sister works in higher ed and she’s had to send emails to HR even for the largest of universities to withdraw her applications. Never heard her mention it another way.

  121. naha*

    hello all!

    i currently am the sole doer of a number of tasks in my org. when i first got hired, my org did these tasks in a way that both i, at that time, and the person who previously did those tasks (as well as everyone else in the org!) knew was insecure, slow, and error-prone, but they didn’t have the resources to do in a safer way.

    four years later, i’m trying to get the org to do them in a faster, safer, better way, because everyone agrees no one should do these tasks in this manner ever again, even the person who does my job after me. when i ask for resources to fix how the tasks are done, i get a lot of “are you leaving?” concerns.

    i’m not leaving *now,* but this speeds up my workflow and generally better! And yes, when i *do* leave, this will be better! GARGH!!!!!!! JUST MAKE BETTER ADMIN TOOLS!!!!

    1. Karen from Finance*

      Can you answer something like “I might leave, if you don’t make better tools!”? haha

      Honestly I feel you in this one, I’m on a similar boat.

    2. Ama*

      Heh, I have done a lot of this too, and also done a lot of documentation of our processes, but I have a built in excuse — four months after I was hired (six years ago) my then-manager had a serious health crisis and was completely unavailable for six months. I only managed to keep things going because she was obsessive about documenting so I could figure a lot out just by reading through the files. So now if anyone ever asks why I’m working on updating documentation, I just say “well I’m just making sure if there was ever another emergency and something happened to me you have the most updated instructions.”

      In your case, I’d just say something like “it seems like the best time to update this is now, while I’m here for the foreseeable future and can make sure we get the best tools possible, and not when I’m already in my notice period, don’t you think?”

    3. Dr. Anonymous*

      “What an odd question. Why wouldn’t We all want to have a more efficient and less error-prone system right now?”

  122. WJan*

    Part vent and part request for advice. I am a programmer/software developer.

    Vent:
    I’ve been in my job for 7 years. I was hired into what was, for several years, a really great team environment. The best I’ve ever experienced. People anxious to share their knowledge and skills and get the work done. Virtually no one-upsmanship or competition; great collaboration. Manager was very very hands off, but it worked. A couple of years ago, we got a couple of new team members and it’s totally messed up our vibe. One is a total loner (stereotypical code monkey) who resents the hell out of meetings and any sort of teamwork. The other is a total braggart who happily and obviously takes credit for any work he was even tangentially related to, always puffing himself up. Manager is still very very hands off, but now it doesn’t work, he needs to tell these people that what they are doing is hindering the team effort, but he is obviously not ever going to. It’s getting worse and worse over time, and I’m just so disappointed.

    Anyway .. methinks it’s time for me to move on. 7 years is a long time at one job for a programmer anyway.

    Advice:
    1. What am I going to do about references? Nobody wants tech industry references from 10 years ago, but I don’t want to ask my manager (or really even co-workers) at my current job for obvious reasons.
    2. How essential is it to have All The Profiles? I haven’t actually applied to anything yet, but the application forms all seem to have about 15 different fields for you to link to this (your website), that (linkedin), and the other (samples of your work at github). Am I expected to have all of these? Or is it just a matter of them wanting to make sure you have a spot to put everything? My small company is still taking resumes from craigslist ads, so I’m not familiar with current professional norms in this area.
    3. How important is it to have samples of my work available online somewhere? I work full-time and have three kids and manage a household and a couple of rentals. I don’t have much free time for side projects, is what I’m saying. Frankly, I already spend 40 hours a week coding, and when and if I do get free time, I’ve got other things I’d rather do.
    4. I have worked remote/partially remote on and off for 15 years and high on my wish list is for my next job to be one I can do from anywhere in the world. Any special advice for me around that?

    So what are my next steps here? I recently redid my resume and am working on a cover letter (based on a lot of information I gleaned from this site). Should I be putting my efforts into writing an mobile app? Write a react application and just stick it out on github? Try to bump my rating on CodeWars? Or does my work experience speak for itself and I should just start applying?

    I’m in the enviable position of having a “good enough” job to stay at until I find just the right thing, so I have the luxury of taking my time and doing it right. Thanks in advance for any suggestions you have for me.

    1. Nicki Name*

      Programmer here who has worked for 4 different companies in the time you’ve been at your current job.

      This isn’t going to be a satisfying answer, but: It varies.

      If you’re applying to a “we work hard and play hard” place where you aren’t supposed to have any life outside of coding, sure, not having work on GitHub is going to look bad to them. Is that a place you want to work at? Maybe not?

      I’ve never been asked for references. Most places I’ve interviewed at have done skill checks with whiteboard questions, though there was one that had a sort of pre-interview take-home test.

      Social media profiles: I’ve never come across an interview process where it really mattered. I think in most cases, the company wants to take a look at what you post publicly and make sure you won’t be embarrassing them. LinkedIn has been useful for me in keeping contact with former colleagues and recruiters.

      BTW, if you’re in the US: Tech recruiters! They’re mostly awesome! Talk to as many as you want! Make sure you look at the job descriptions they send you carefully, though, so you don’t get inadvertently get submitted for the same job by 2 different recruiters.

      1. WJan*

        Yeah, I’m totally OK with being passed over for a gig at a startup where they want you to throw your whole life into it. I was just worried that not having work on github is akin to saying, “actually, I’ve never written any code”.

        I’ve never felt in the past like references were a huge deal to potential employers (I’ve been asked for them, but largely they haven’t been contacted), but it’s been awhile, and Alison makes it sound like you might as well not bother trying if you don’t have managers willing to talk to you.

        Thoughts on how to find a good recruiter? Or just respond to any of the 300 messages I get that has a job attached that looks good to me?

        1. Nicki Name*

          Like Daughter of Ada and Grace below, mostly I’ve gotten in touch with them through job postings they’ve made. Dice.com has been my biggest source for that. I’ve also wound up talking to a couple that first reached out to me on LinkedIn with a “Hi, I see you’re looking, can I send you a couple listings you might be interested in?” sort of message.

          If one of those cold e-mails looks like the right kind of job in the right kind of place, though, it can’t hurt to at least find out a little more.

    2. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      Also a programmer, with similar experience in my current job as you have. I’ve also participated in the hiring process for our team.

      For references, would a previous coworker (ie, someone who worked with you at your current job, but is now working elsewhere) work for you? Otherwise, I suspect you’ll have to find a particularly discreet current coworker.

      I have a LinkedIn and a GitHub, but don’t have a personal web page. As long as the fields aren’t required, I suspect they just want to make sure you have a spot to put everything. That said, if you include it, assume someone will at least glance at it. If you have something particularly unique, expect them to do more than glance.

      If you’ve got a personal coding project you want to do, go for it, but don’t sweat it if you can’t think of anything. If there’s something you want to do personally that’s close to the types of jobs you’re looking at, do that. Don’t build a mobile app if what you really want to do is write printer drivers (and vice versa), just because mobile apps are “cool”.

      I agree with Nicki Name’s suggestion about Tech Recruiters. I worked with at least four when looking for my current job. Two of them were even with the same agency – one handled direct-hire positions, and the one who placed me handled contract-to-hire positions. The important bit is once you know one recruiter has put you up for a specific position (and you know the company), let your other recruiters know.

      You also have some room to push back on recruiters. I had one who wanted me to send them my resume so they could format it according to their template. I asked them to send me the template so I could put my resume into it myself. The recruiter agreed, and when we reviewed it afterwords, she said my version actually looked better than the one they would’ve made for me. (I also fixed a typo in one of their headers.)

      1. WJan*

        What kind of work do you have on GitHub? I have a few ideas for projects that I think would be neat (and would be in the line with the kind of work I want to do), but I just don’t find time to do them.

        Not one person in my department has left since I started there 7 years ago! My office mate knows that I am really frustrated with the way things are going; he might be willing to do it.

        How did you go about finding an agency you liked? I feel like I get so many cold calls/emails that I can’t imagine where to begin.

        1. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

          Most of my GitHub commits are to my company’s private repositories. I also do some public speaking, so my slide decks and sample code for my talks go up there. And I’ve got a personal project that I keep ignoring, but it’s a simple web page that does some calculations that are of interest to a hobby group I’m part of. (Or will, once I get the math correct.) It’s also an excuse to play with responsive design and various javascript frameworks.

          I think I found some recruiters by applying for jobs that were posted by various agencies. For me, these tended to be local, but I ended up being placed by RHT (they’re a Robert Half company, specializing in technical jobs), and they are national. I haven’t tried replying to a cold contact from a recruiter yet, but it could potentially work. This is another place I’d be picky – don’t just pick one at random, look for one who seems to have an opportunity that matches your interests.

          (I’m still annoyed by the one who sent me a post for a part-time, contract position, 100% travel to do hardware installations, at an hourly rate less than half of what I currently make if you converted my salary into hours. All the no.)

  123. Ellie*

    Requesting scripts on how to handle a bully who is sneaky and gotten in good with the person above her on the org chart …. I want whatever I say and however I say it to politely and professionally convey “Your foolishness is your problem, not mine. If you want to keep on wasting energy like this, go right ahead.” I already respond to every request and directive with a version of “Yes, ma’am – will do.” How do I also include the “you’re wasting your energy/time with this foolishness” in my responses?

    1. fposte*

      Compact and business-only, as in your example, is the best way of doing that–adding anything to what you describe is likelier to make things worse rather than better. So just keep on keeping on.

    2. Karen from Finance*

      Can you please give some context on the type of bullying this person is doing? An example of a situation where the script would be used?

    3. Yuan Zai*

      How do I also include the “you’re wasting your energy/time with this foolishness” in my responses?

      You don’t. It doesn’t matter how you word it, YOU will look unprofessional. If you return fire with fire, you’re likely to get burned.

      If you think this person is no more than an annoyance, then continue refusing to respond to their provocations (while keeping record of them in case you need to escalate) and hope that they grow bored soon. If they don’t – escalate. Go to your manager, if you can, to their manager, if you can, or to HR.

      If you think this person is causing you serious grief, go ahead and escalate to your/their manager and/or HR now.

  124. Combinatorialist*

    I’m looking for books! (Work books).

    I’m a computer scientist/data scientist/general math and cs person very early in my career. My current projects have me spending a lot of time waiting for a computation for 5-10 minutes. These computations are taking almost all of my RAM so my usual solution of poke on the Internet isn’t super feasible (and sometimes I am on a computer without network connection). I also don’t have access to my phone at work.

    I just read the AAM conversations book which was perfect for this purpose — could be read in short bursts and easily put down when my computation finished. I’m looking for more books I can read when I’m waiting on computations. I have tried podcasts but I have found them to be too distracting in between the computations when I need to actually work. I’m hoping for books (or magazines) that are justifiable to read in the office and can be consumed in short bursts with lots of interruptions

    1. CindiLouHoo*

      Please check out your public library; I just bet they have just the types of books you’re seeking!

      1. Nanc*

        Seconding this–and lots of libraries have e-books you can check out on your phone or tablet. I’m very fond of Ambrose Bierce’s The Devil’s Dictionary. It’s still funny after all these years.

    2. LaurenB*

      A manager was just raving about a site called Blinkist. The premise is that it summarizes books (management, self-help, general knowledge-type themes) to be read in 15 minutes.

    3. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      Could you get away with reading popular-audience math books like Math with Bad Drawings?

      Does your industry have any kind of trade magazines? I know there are plenty of academic journals, but I also know that I can’t really read an article in a math or CS academic journal in short, interruptible bursts. (More like “several hours with a whiteboard, a lot of coffee, and copious muttering.”) A trade magazine might have something less intense to read through.

  125. Pennalynn Lott*

    Halp! I have a good problem but it’s still a problem. I have two job offers for internal audit.

    (1) $63K, with decent health insurance and matching 401K, at a company full of really good people. The department I’d be joining is at the tail end of some changes. The current Sr VP was brought in a year or two ago (from another part of the company) to straighten it out. I’d get to rotate through different kinds of projects under five different managers (Ops, Finance, IT, SOX, and Fraud). I’d be working at the corporate headquarters, a solid 40 hours per week with rare exceptions going over, and very minimal travel (1-2 times per year, a few days at a time).

    (2) $75K, $2500 signing bonus, 20% annual bonus, some kind of vested equity bonus, with decent health insurance and matching 401K at a company with some dysfunction in the department I’d be joining. A new Sr VP was brought in 6 months ago to straighten it out and there are some growing pains. I’m interning there now. I like the Sr VP but don’t like my new director. I also don’t like some of the things the Sr VP is doing (like hiring people from her old company into Sr Director roles here without interviewing any internal people; plus she reassigned two directors to different parts of the company without discussing it with them first). I’d be working remotely at a small satellite office that will, initially, only have two of us. We would be adding 3-4 interns in the fall and spring, though. The standard workweek is 45 hours, and I’d be traveling perhaps once a month (most likely slightly less, but certainly more than Option 1). I’d be working on the same kinds of projects all the time — as sort of a consultant between the business areas and IT. The individual projects would change as we work with different areas of the business, but I’d never get a chance to do, say, fraud investigations.

    So, if I was choosing based on co-workers and environment, alone, I’d choose Option 1. But I’m graduating with my Master’s in two weeks and I have the student loans that come with it. I’m also 52 with no retirement savings. So the extra money would be very much welcomed. But. . . my last corporate job was at a place that was so toxic and dysfunctional that I ended up using all of my FMLA leave to try to figure out why I was so sick (and thought I was dying, honestly) only to be let go in a round of layoffs and have all of my symptoms magically disappear within two weeks. So I’m really, really scared of working in The House of Evil Bees again. So far, I’ve seen dysfunction but no Evil Bees at my internship. Also, the folks at Option 1 could have just been putting on a good show for my interviews. Maybe they’re actually all Evil Bees. I wouldn’t know until I work with them. . . for much less money than Option 2.

    Any thoughts??

    1. LaDeeDa*

      I chose people and culture over money… I’ll make do on the money, because at the end of the day not having to write in AAM about the messed up work environment is better.

      And congratulations on two offers!!!

    2. Lepidoptera*

      Working remotely with possibly-toxic people is (by my experience) not quite the same metric as working with them shoulder-to-shoulder all day. If option 2 was on-site, I’d probably choose option 1. But given the remote option, I’m leaning towards option 2.

      1. Pennalynn Lott*

        Being remote definitely helps. If I turn in good, timely work then there shouldn’t be any reason for me to get dragged into any politics or personality issues. And the managers of the projects that would be receiving my work all seem like decent enough people (based on my internship experience), so I’ve also got that layer of protection. Assuming they don’t quit or get managed out and replaced by Evil Bees, that is.

      2. Remote Cat Herder*

        I respectfully disagree. I have worked in all 4 quadrants of the remote/in-person/toxic/non-toxic alignment chart, and remote+toxic is just as bad as in-person+toxic. Dysfunction is dysfunction.

        I had a remote job that was a House of Evil Bees. To choose a few examples at random, they: failed to send me tax paperwork on time and then blamed me, penalized me very heavily for incredibly small errors that were few and far between (think: a single, non-crucial typo in a document of multiple single-spaced pages), changed the workload drastically without warning, pitted coworkers against each other in uncomfortable ways, etc etc etc. It was really intense. (I am now at a remote job that I love, thank god.) Evil Bees have internet access too!

    3. Autumnheart*

      If option 1 wasn’t on the table, how would you feel about the offer from option 2? How do you feel when you imagine working there for the remainder of your career? Would you feel good about it? Is the existing dysfunction and Senior VP enough to turn you off the prospect of spending multiple years there, or do you feel like you’d be able to influence the culture enough to turn it into something you would enjoy?

      If it were me, I’d probably take Option 2 and use my time to pay down my loans and maximize my savings ASAP. Keep in mind, as you’re working there, you may very well have the option to develop and leverage relationships with other areas, and expand your role. What you see today isn’t necessarily going to be the extent of your role.

      1. Pennalynn Lott*

        If Option 1 weren’t on the table, I’d be thrilled with Option 2. They haven’t proven themselves to be Evil Bees, they’re just going through growing pains during which I’ve seen a couple of things that I was like, “Hmmmm…I’d have like to have seen that handled differently.”

        And, being older and more experienced in pushing back on people, I think I can easily deal with the disorganization / dysfunction I’ve seen over the past five months. I’ve gotten really good at not taking on other people’s messes, asking for clarification and agreement, and getting things in writing. So even if this turns out to be like Remote Cat Herder’s experience, I don’t think I’d take on the mental / emotional burden [like I was prone to do in my early- and mid-career years] if, say, someone didn’t send me key documents on time and then tried to blame me. And if they pulled that stunt more than once, I’d immediately start looking for another job. . . that would, presumably, match the higher pay. Or, heck, would be $63K and I’d be OK with that.

        1. valentine*

          Go for 2. I think you will enjoy the challenge and travel. If nothing else, the financial cushion positions you better should you need to leave.

      1. Pennalynn Lott*

        Option 1 is at their max. They can’t go higher. I already went through a couple weeks of negotiating with them.

  126. Naomi K*

    Hoping for some advice from you savvy people:

    I’m leaving my first professional job at some point late this summer since I’m moving away for grad school but I have no idea when to give notice. I know two weeks is the rule, but I’m a contracted employee whose contract is up in June, and my employers will have to hire lawyers to write up a new contract (last one was not great for me) and I have known for months already that I’m leaving. I feel like the two-weeks thing will reflect poorly upon me if come August, I say, “Ok bye everyone, I’m moving in two weeks and yes it’s obvious this move required months of planning!” and leave my department in the lurch. Also, I feel like I should give enough time for them to hire (and for me to train) someone new, since I am the only person with the technical skills needed for our department of 3 to function. I would prefer to stay here until I leave, but I think it’s possible they’ll just let me go at the close of my contract if they know I’ll be leaving 1.5 months after anyway.

    Any advice would be MUCH appreciated – thanks!

    1. Angelinha*

      If you sign a new contract that goes until next June, what will be the penalty for breaking it in August?

      If you’re able to get out of the contract in August, then I think you have to decide how badly you want to keep the job until then. If you need the money until you leave and you think they’ll let you go, keep quiet and be apologetic about the timing when you give notice. You can always act like you didn’t know you were going to be leaving. You can say that you got into the program but only just decided at the beginning of August that you were going to go/got in off the wait list/only just found out about financial aid, etc.

    2. Autumnheart*

      Is there a way you can discuss this with your boss, and have them extend your existing contract until August? Then you’d have a definite end date. Yeah, the existing contract might not be great for you, but they might be more willing to just tack time on to the status quo, as opposed to going through the process of redoing the contract for only two months of employment.

  127. Paperback Writer*

    Why is it such a big deal/no-no to change jobs for more money?

    I know that a lot of companies seem to want to see that you’ve had longevity (2+ years) somewhere, but… I have a six-figure student loan, and 2-3% COL/merit raises every year for however long I’m “supposed to” stay at a company… isn’t going to cut it.

    (For background, I’m 30 and my first couple of years out of college with an accounting degree were spent working retail because entry level accountant jobs were requiring a master’s, a CPA, and 5 years experience. Job 1 was my first “accounting” job)

    For example-
    Job 1: 12 months, $X per hour
    Job 2: 13 months, 30% increase
    Job 3: 4 month contract, 5% increase
    Job 4: 23 months, 30% increase
    Job 5: 14 months, 15% increase

    In 5 years I’ve doubled my salary (I’m not rolling in the dough, I’m in the ballpark for median household average for my area, so solidly middle-class).

    Given that this DOES appear job-hoppy, how would you go about saying “I have no problem staying at a company long term but ultimately I’m going to follow the money”?

    1. Colette*

      From the company’s perspective, why should they invest in training/onboarding you if you’re going to leave in less than 2 years? It often takes at least 6 months to become competent at the job, and a couple of years to become stellar; why should they take a chance on you if you’re not going to stick around?

      Frankly, your student loan is not their problem.

      Why are you accepting jobs that don’t pay you enough to commit for 2 (or better yet, 3) years?

      1. Paperback Writer*

        Oh, I know my loan isn’t their problem! I was just telling you all to give a fuller picture.

    2. fposte*

      It’s not that it’s a big deal; it’s that in fields where people want a longer tenure or deeper explorations that’s not a history that gets you there. It sounds like you’re in a field where that hasn’t been an issue, or you’re performing at a high enough level that prospective employers consider you worth it for short terms.

      I think your resume says what you want to say all on its own. However, if it comes up more explicitly in the interview, I think it’s not something you need to bring up independently; it’s more if they say “Hey, you’ve moved around a lot, would you commit to longer here?” that you can be credibly candid with what’s basically a “Maybe.”

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      The reason employers judge people being job-hoppers is they don’t want someone who sucks and thus has to be fired or laid off, and they also don’t want someone who’s awesome and leaves immediately after being fully trained. If you’re awesome, they want to keep you. You could make the case, of course, that if keeping you was a priority, they’d compensate you more to keep you, but I’m merely explaining why companies or hiring managers sometimes judge people for job-hopping.

    4. LaDeeDa*

      Your job history wouldn’t be a red flag for me, it looks pretty much like I would expect for someone in their first 7 or so years of work.

      1. Middle Manager*

        I would agree on the first four, which look pretty clearly to me like typical out of college career building. But I guess I would expect it to start to level off now with job 5 and about a decade out of college. I would want to start seeing 2-3 minimum or I’m going to assume that they might not be worth my effort to train if they are likely to leave in a year or so.

        1. ExcelJedi*

          Agreed. I’d stay in Job #5 another 12-18 months before starting a job search. It’ll pay off in the long run to have more 2-3 year stays under your belt at this stage.

          Companies looking for people with 5-10 years of experience want to see a history of bringing in new ideas and effecting change in some way, and that’s easier after the first year or two, when you really start to learn the seasonal ebb and flow of a business.

  128. KatieKate*

    I posted a few months back about wanting to date a coworker. Y’all told me not to, and I ignored you and dated them. And now we’ve broken up. So…. you were right. I won’t be doing that again.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Sometimes you have to learn the hard way. I’m sorry you’re in that awkward space now!

    2. Karen from Finance*

      Oh, I’m sorry.

      I think sometimes there’s some mistakes we need to do ourselves and though the situation is going to suck now, hey, it’s a lesson learned.

    3. Me*

      Eh it’s human nature to think you’re going to be the exception/one-in-a-million. After all lottery and office romance does work out sometimes. Don’t beat yourself up about it.

      The good news is it’ll get less weird over time in most cases.

    4. Autumnheart*

      Don’t beat yourself up. Sometimes relationships with coworkers work out, sometimes they don’t. More than one of my colleagues are currently married to people they met here at work. Meanwhile, I work on the same team with someone I dated several years ago, with whom it did not work out to a ridiculous degree. It’s fine.

      As long as you stay professional on the job, it will blow over soon enough.

  129. :/*

    How do you tell if your in a toxic workplace (especially when you’re working with friends who are also your boss)?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      If you feel okay about it, it’s probably not toxic for you (could be for other people).

      What signs lead you to believe it might be toxic?

      1. :/*

        Like I’m getting dreams trying to figure out whether or not I’ve responded to emails (I’ve been at this startup for couple of years), a lot of the administrative/”ladies” work put on me like getting coffee or note taking. What complicates things is that there’s literally only a handful of us so if I don’t get it done, it usually doesn’t get done period.

    2. LaDeeDa*

      Does it feel bad? Is it disrupting your sleep, causing you stress, affecting your eating habits? Do you dread going to work?

      Do people call out sick a lot?
      Would you describe the leaders as narcissistic?
      Are people complaining/ negative?
      Are people plodding along and not showing enthusiasm?
      Is there a high turnover?
      Are there cliques, lots of gossiping, rumors?

    3. NicoleK*

      Are people quitting left and right? Do you dread going to work every morning? Do you feel demoralized and unsupported? Do issues you bring up get addressed? Are you complaining about your job?

      1. :/*

        Responding to both you and LaDeeDa:

        Yes? Mostly yes? There’s not a lot of space to gather myself and do routine tasks in peace since we’re so small. It’s also a high-stress environment so that doesn’t help.

        So my friend/boss is supportive of taking time off and constantly emphasizes mental health but that doesn’t mean he’s a good boss/manager. Not that he’s the worst boss/manager I’ve had but he’s not great either. I’ve always had the work ethic that a lot of first- and second-generation immigrants have if work is work is work – I should be grateful of having it and the only big reason to complain would be … Well, almost never, so it’s hard for me to distinguish between something that’s just not the right fit for me vs a bad workplace. So a of the questions you ask seem… Isn’t that just a part of work?

        1. valentine*

          Isn’t that just a part of work?
          No. If your workplace seems like a sitcom or you feel like the James McAvoy character in that movie where he’s an office worker who turns out to be some Chosen One, it’s a bad place. But does it matter if a place is a bad fit for you versus being bad itself? You can leave.

          Just because no one will do the women’s work doesn’t mean you should. If they’re not specifically your tasks, there’s no rota, and no men do them, you’re too busy. Take note of when people are pushing and when you are pushing yourself. Are you making up rules like if someone asks you to do something they are right to do so and you have to do it? It’s possible neither is true.

          A true friend doesn’t want you going someplace you dread and having nightmares about it.

  130. LaDeeDa*

    More fashion talk… For the women in the US who wear professional or business casual clothes- do you have a favorite store or stores?
    I swear 99% of my closet is The Loft and Ann Taylor with the other 1% White House Black Market. Their sizing is consistent so I can shop online and by shopping online I can watch for the incredible sales.

    1. Bostonian*

      My work wardrobe is 95% WHBM :-) I sometimes buy from Macy’s, too. They have a good petite selection. (I am short enough that “crop” pants- and even some capris- look like regular pants.)

      1. LaDeeDa*

        The only reason WHBM isn’t more of my closest is that they don’t have a Tall selection, and I can’t wear their pants or suit jackets. But a lot of my dresses and tops come from there.

        1. AnonForToday*

          Where do you shop?

          I am over 6′ tall, with a 36″ inseam, and most of the women’s tall clothing shops have clothes that are too casual for my profession (and unfortunately I work in the kind of place where people look down on polyester/rayon instead of wool or silk)

    2. Lepidoptera*

      I live in east BFE, so I mostly shop online. Nordstrom, MM.LaFleur, Theory, Boden, and Of Mercer are some favorites. I also stalk high-fashion sites, find something I like, and then Google for dupes.

    3. Me*

      Loft for me. It fits well for off the rack.

      Now I actually buy 99.9% of my clothes from Loft via Goodwill. I started when I was poooor and haven’t found a reason to pay more. Plus it’s environmentally friendly.My current outfit cost me less than $15 bucks – slacks, sweater and shell.

      It’s also a good way to find other brands that work without having to go to a billion different stores.

      1. E*

        Same here, I always hunt for Loft pieces at my local Goodwill, they are almost always perfect for my wardrobe style.

    4. L. S. Cooper*

      I’ve fallen in love with some of Torrid’s stuff, but I’m a young person in a fairly casual area– I wind up being slightly overdressed a lot of the time! I like the way their shirts fit, and they have some in their business-y line that are still a little quirky, which I love. (Might be less egregious at a future job, but my current job is for a shoe brand that’s the polar opposite of business casual– like, these shoes are full-on beach wear. Jeans with a blouse, a cardigan, and wedge booties is a little too formal for this office.)
      Lane Bryant has some pieces I enjoy, but most of their styles end up looking slightly bizarre on me.

      1. LaDeeDa*

        If I were young and cool I would buy so much from ModCloth- you are probably familiar with it, but wanted to mention it just in case. I love the quirky little patterns, I think they work so well because it is quirky but on a traditional cut.

        1. L. S. Cooper*

          I do love their styles! I tend not to wear a lot of dresses, which are really their bread-and-butter, but that doesn’t stop me from lusting after them…

        2. Emi.*

          Boden has a slightly “Modcloth for grownups” vibe to me — fun prints but not as aggressively quirky, and the silhouettes tend to be less cutesy.

    5. Middle Manager*

      As a plus size woman, Eshakti has been a godsend to me for professional dresses. It’s next to impossible for me to find a blazer, let alone a suit, that fits my hourglass shape. I’m super excited that they just posted blazers on Eshakti now. I can only endorse the dresses at the moment, but I can’t wait to see if they have mastered a blazer that can deal with cleavage, hips, and a proportionally small waist.

      1. post it*

        I have a blazer from Torrid that’s a thick ponte knit and fits better than any other blazer I’ve had, it might be worth checking out!

        1. Middle Manager*

          Good to know. I used to really like Torrid and then it seemed like the were trending really young and trendy for awhile there. I’ll have to check it out again.

      2. Drago Cucina*

        Lurve eShakti. Pockets!!!! I have one dress in three different colors and sleeve lengths. One is great for winter and another was my Easter dress. The only person who knew it was the same style was the person I mentioned it to when I ordered them. Elbow length sleeves are great for living in the south. They are wearable most of the year.

        Elloqui has been great for wrap dresses. Today I’m wearing a pencil skirt and peplum top from Elloqui. With my pear shape I never would have considered a pencil skirt before. The Viola fit is my friend.

    6. Kelly*

      I wear lots of CAbi, I wait till my consultant has her sample sale usually, then it’s all at least 50% off.

    7. Receptionist/Rocket Scientist*

      Express!! It’s especially great for warm weather because they have a lot of light blouses that are still flattering. I try items on in the store to get a sense of my sizing, and then buy them cheaper on Poshmark :)

    8. Kat in VA*

      Calvin Klein and Anne Klein, more so Calvin. I’ve got their size ranges down pat so I can buy pieces from Amazon or ebay, depending on mood, and know that they’ll fit.

  131. I Work on a Hellmouth*

    An exhausted hello from the Hellmouth! It is Day 5 of trying to cover three full time jobs (while my manager has mostly been absent for the week, so actually kind of covering 4 positions? I am so, so tired guys). Awesome Temp is still awesome, but also still can only answer the phone (and either hand the call off or take a message) and file stuff. But she’s lovely and sane and will talk about Endgame with me, and keeps me from being completely alone (or alone with Hell Boss, which would be even worse). The drudgery struggle is real. Some of you may remember me mentioning my boss engaging in some very strange interview behavior while trying to fill our two open leasing positions—well, my boss has (secretly, I am not supposed to know this yet) told Awesome Temp that she has hired the guy who had the two hour second interview. And he is starting in June. JUNE. She apparently hired him last week some time. To start in JUNE. There has been no movement in filling the other open position. I am drowning.

    No word from Local Big University yet, but 1) the day is still young, and 2) like some of you have mentioned, a decision by today was a pretty optimistic timeline and I wouldn’t be surprised if it takes two or three weeks longer than they estimated. I felt like I knocked the interview out of the park at the time, but none of my references have been contacted yet—however, I have had several people who work at Local Big University tell me that their references weren’t contacted until after the decision to hire them had been made, so I’m doing my best to just not think about. I’ve also been trying to apply to more jobs, but I’m just so wiped out by the time that I get home that I can barely string coherent thoughts together (and I keep walking into my furniture—so many weird leg bruises). I remain hopeful, and I also keep doing every silly good luck ritual that I can think of. If I actually DO hear anything today I will update in the replies.

    The HR investigation into all of the stuff that I reported about my boss (the hidden microphones, the bullying, making me do non-work things for her off property while on the clock, trying to force me to use PTO after telling me I could make up time and then coding it to my sick time when I pushed back on that, various other shady things) is still open and they have a scheduled long talk with The Good Leasing Consultant (even though he is now gone) this coming Monday. I have also reported some possible payroll fraud from yesterday–Hell Boss left me by myself for most of the day (well, Awesome Temp was there, but as previously discussed, she can’t actually DO anything) to go to a “very important conference” that was actually just a front for getting 4 hours of credit towards her personal real estate license (not a thing that is required or needed for her job… not THIS job, anyway…).

    And it wouldn’t be a Hellmouth update without at least one wacky story. I like to call this one Why Do I Have to Repeatedly Tell Someone to Put On Pants? Because I spent all day Tuesday telling a teenaged girl that she could not walk around the common areas in underpants, could not swim in underpants, could not lounge by the pool in underpants, could not swim in sheer shorts over the underpants, could not do Instagram photoshoots at the pool in her underpants, and finally had to tell her that she and her guests were banned from the pool for the day and would not be allowed to return without appropriate attire. Her response each time was to aggressively twerk. I finally had to resort to clapping my hands the same way I do when my dog doesn’t want to get in his kennel to get them to leave. This is my life now. But hopefully not for much longer!

    1. Parenthetically*

      Her response each time was to aggressively twerk.

      I AM BEGGING YOU to write a book!

    2. kittymommy*

      How does one aggressively twerk?? That’s so odd. And if you’re only wearing underpants I’d be afraid of something popping out.

      Endgame!! I’m still recovering and no one here has seen it.

      Hopefully you hear something relatively soon on the university job and happy that HR is still investigating. Sounds like they are taking it seriously.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        It involves uncomfortable eye contact and, at one or two points, also involves hovering the butt area millimeters over the water.

        I WANT TO TALK ABOUT ENDGAME SO MUCH, but I’m very cognizant of how crappy it would be to spoil it for anyone, so it is nice to have one other person around who has seen it!

    3. Environmental Compliance*

      I’m so sorry that I’m laughing so hard at the aggressive twerking. I really, really hope that you hear from LBU soon!

    4. PX*

      Hellmouth, I’m sorry for the situation you’re in and it sounds really sucky. But oh my god someone who responds to things by aggressively twerking is one of the most hilarious things I have ever read. I’m sure you were stressed/sad/tired/frustrated at the time, but just know that to me – an ocean and several timezones away – you have just provided an absolute gem of a story

      :’D :’D :’D (those are the laughing with joy emojis!)

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Oh, it’s even funnier when you picture my frazzled self finally going ” YOU NEED TO LEAVE RIGHT NOW !

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          (With claps punctuating each word and a vigorous pointing to the gate at the end.)

        2. Bee's Knees*

          I’m so glad I’m one of the only ones left in the office, because I am crying at the thought of the type of person that responds to literally anything by aggressively twerking.

    5. ECHM*

      When you get your new job, please send something to Alison to post as one of the daily stories, not just in the open thread!

    6. LaDeeDa*

      Her response each time was to aggressively twerk. *dead*

      You have to write a book or a script for a sitcom after this nightmare is over. The world needs this.

      Still got my fingers crossed for you!!

    8. Ama*

      As someone who was involved in many university hiring processes — if Big University is wrapping up their semester in the next couple weeks that may put things on hold for a bit, depending on who needs to be involved in the hiring decision. Even for administrative departments that you wouldn’t think would have a huge role in exams/graduation, the university I used to work for used to recruit from those heavily for volunteers to assist with managing graduation itself, and that meant a lot of training meetings and other time away from the office for a couple weeks.

    9. Anonforthis*

      Maybe this is a side-tangent, but I’m wondering why the teenaged girl wasn’t in school? For the love of God, put on some GD pants or at least a bathing suit, which is appropriate for a pool. Also I would have called the police.

      1. That Girl From Quinn's House*

        To be honest, this isn’t that weird (absent the aggressive twerking.) I lifeguarded for years in low-income neighborhoods, and a surprising number of low-income people can’t afford a dedicated swimsuit, so they turn up in their undies or gym clothes. I’ve seen swimmers in panties, regular bras, tighty-whities, softball uniforms, sports bras, boxer briefs, boxer shorts, gym shorts, t-shirts, light colored cotton tank tops (that go transparent when wet), polo shirts, and in one family’s case, softball uniforms.

        Depending on the program and the article of clothing, we’d do anything from give them a free swimsuit (we accepted donations), look the other way, or ask them to leave (particularly if it was see through or clingy to the point of obscenity.)

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          Definitely not weird in low income areas! Very weird here, though (we aren’t one of the properties for the mega rich, but we are definitely not low income). I honestly think they were trying to film something or take some risque pictures.

    10. bunniferous*

      Love your posts!

      BTW those four hours your bad boss took is part of Continuing Ed-something we agents have to take yearly to keep our licenses. And depending on the rules of your state, her job may actually require her to have a real estate license. That said, sometimes you can take the course at night or on weekends….

      On one hand I am rooting for you to get the heck outta there but on the other hand I am addicted to these stories….you are going to have to keep updating us on something once you escape the hellhole.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Ah, but I checked with HR first, and her job does not–and neither does the company. There were some other hinky circumstances surrounding it, too.

        I’m pretty sure I have stories until I die, so I can always pull something out of the vault for you–I don’t really hit on half of the weirdness that goes down here. ;)

    11. Nerdy Library Clerk*

      Come on Local Big University! You more than deserve a decent normal job with no lunatic managers or clients and no one wandering around in underpants. (Well, okay, in a university, you might encounter that in the dorms. But only in the dorms.)

    12. I Work on a Hellmouth*

      An update that will probably be seen by no one:
      In addition to my boss causing a terrible ruckus with a resident yesterday afternoon because she accused the woman’s teen daughter of dangerously careening around the property at top speeds with a man in truck with tinted windows while said teen was actually on a school bus and completely innocent (causing the mother to angrily come down to the office with her on-the-bus daughter on Facetime, yelling about assumptions and thinking all black teenaged girls look alike), a resident who had called me and shrieked at me over the phone about a past due late fee earlier in the day snuck into the office after hours while I was working late and slipped her rent check (sans late fee) into a check batch that was about to be processed, which might be the first ever case of Reverse Banditry. But I am much more hung up on the fact that I am working today (the office is open and covered by a single person every Saturday, and I always have to work the first weekend of the month–although I guess I am now working all weekends), and the office wasps are apparently back. Which I know because one JUST LANDED ON MY FACE.

      I hate this place.

      1. MommaCat*

        Sending all the good vibes your way that I can, that you get through this with a minimum of stress and with your wonderful sense of humor intact (and with no more wasps!). Also sending vibes that you’re able to quit *before* next dude is due to start working, thereby forcing your boss reap what she’s sown.

      2. EddieSherbert*

        Sending you all the good vibes! I hope the LBU job works out.

        (Missed last Friday, but had to pull up the thread to check on you when I got online today!)

  132. Post-College Unpaid Internships?*

    Late, but maybe I’ll get some bites with this.

    Has anyone here done unpaid internships after college? What were the benefits to you and do you have any advice about making sure that the employer isn’t taking advantage of the intern?

    Backstory: A friend of mine, D., who hasn’t worked since he graduated college back in 2015 (for various reasons related to mental health/physical disabilities that have become more manageable lately), was offered and took an unpaid internship as a copywriter for a small agency. The agency had previously been using people from Fiverr/Upwork etc. and claimed that they were taking on an unpaid intern as a pilot program so that they could prove that the workload was heavy enough to warrant an in-house employee. Seems kinda sketch to me to get an unpaid intern for this purpose, but maybe that’s typical.

    Our friend group cautiously encouraged D. to just take it and try it for a month or two, since he wasn’t getting any bites anywhere else, and it would at least give him something to do and give him some experience in an office environment. The company also verbally told him (yes, I know…) that if this pilot program worked out, they’d consider hiring him as their part-time in-house copywriter.

    However…the fact is, he’s still unpaid, and the company has started to ask him to extend his hours (from the agreed-upon 4 hours/day to 6 hours/day) and have drastically increased his workload to an unmanageable amount. D is grudgingly continuing with the internship because it’s not like he has anything else going on – but I’m wondering if there’s any advice we should be be giving him to make sure that he isn’t being completely taken advantage of and that he knows his rights even though he’s an unpaid worker. Thoughts?

    (Note: We have read the laws about unpaid internships in our state and we have sent links and other info to D. So he is aware on some level.)

      1. Post-College Unpaid Internships?*

        To be honest? Nothing – no other jobs, not even volunteering.

    2. fposte*

      This doesn’t sound like an internship to me; it sounds like they have an illegally unpaid employee, so I think he is being completely taken advantage of already. Is he still looking for jobs? Because that should be his number one move here; he’s only going to get in deeper there, and why would they pay him if he’ll do the work for free?

      1. Post-College Unpaid Internships?*

        Thanks – that’s what we were afraid of. We regret telling him to take it, but honestly it wasn’t like there were any other opportunities that seemed open to him.

        He is looking for jobs – and has been since 2015 – but halfheartedly. His problem is that he hasn’t had any work experience, volunteer or otherwise, since graduating. And he lacks the confidence/knowledge/leverage to seek out anything better, or even to realize that he’s being taken advantage of. We’ve told him to try freelancing so that he can actually get paid, but he balks at that for reasons I’m not totally clear on.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          Freelancing = doing your own marketing / dealing with strangers / constant new and different circumstances. I’d balk at it myself.

          What he needs to know is the timeline, and then he needs to *stick to it*, including leaving at the end of it. He can definitely ask how long is the internship / pilot project. If they say ‘a few months’, his response is, ‘ok, let’s set a meeting for August first to discuss whether you have a need for a paid employee, or whether I’ll be moving on.’ 3 – 4 months of interning won’t look short.

          He will also need to learn to have the prioritization conversation, which goes like, ‘I work 4 hrs / day. I am working on A & B in that time, they will be done in Y days. That means C & D will be done in Y+ days. Is that the order you want them done?’

          He may not have anything else going, but yes, this is sketchy as heck, and he may be learning *bad* work norms. If they respond to the prioritization convo with ‘we want it all in Y days,’ then he is definitely learning bad work norms. Better to spend his time volunteering someplace.

        2. Qwerty*

          I get why you told him to take the unpaid internship – I’ve seen multiple unpaid internships originally intended for students end up going to graduates who are able to leverage the professional experience to get a paid job elsewhere.

          I think the time has passed for being picky about getting work related to his field, and the search needs to be broadened to just getting a job. Nearly 4 years of unemployment is going to be tough to overcome in a professional field when the market is overflowing with eager writers, especially since a fresh batch are graduating college over the next month or two. At this point he needs to demonstrate the ability to work.

          Since summer is starting, I’ll pass along that my writer friends found their summer jobs at nature-y places like the park service or gardening/plant stores to be great because they came home feeling inspired to write.

          1. Post-College Unpaid Internships?*

            Thank you – that’s super helpful and a summer job at nature-focused places aligns nicely with his interests. I’ll pass that along to him.

    3. Overeducated*

      He IS being completely taken advantage of. And it seems like he has no leverage here, although he can certainly say no to extended hours – what are they going to do, stop paying him?

      The important thing is that now he DOES have experience and presumably some kind of portfolio, so he really needs to be spending the other 4 hours of the workday applying for jobs, freelancing, and/or networking, not working more for free.

    4. Former Expat*

      This is pretty outrageous to be honest. Unpaid copywriting? Any company that uses writing that they got for free is not great in any case. They are really flouting the law there. Would it be possible for your friend to do some volunteering instead to get some experience?

  133. Angelinha*

    Just wanted to share a little snippet of this rejection email I got today…

    “The Board wishes to extend special thanks for your willingness to pursue the position to the point of being interviewed. As you know, any search process is not possible without the viable participation of candidates willing to place themselves in a position of being rejected for what they may have felt themselves qualified.”

    1. Pebbles*

      *snerk* “special thanks…to the point of being interviewed”? How many people drop their candidacy BEFORE being interviewed? And “being rejected for what they may have felt themselves qualified”? No Board, what’s really “special” is this email you sent!

    4. Armchair Analyst*

      Were they by any chance offering an absurdly low salary and told you about it before you came in for an interview? So likely many people did not continue to the interview because they were not interested in the salary?

      Um, Thanks, Board. Thanks.

    5. Salyan*

      You mean you need applicants to fill your position? No kidding!
      …nothing like being condescended to and then slapped in the face.

  134. Madam Director*

    Looking for some ideas. I’m the director of a nonprofit with a wonderful volunteer team. I thank them with handwritten thank you notes and sometimes a small gift like homemade cookies or something fun. For volunteers who go above and beyond I try to give a gift card to a nice restaurant.

    Many of my volunteers are very regular and so I don’t know how often I should provide them little gifts/notes to let them know they’re appreciated. What do you all think?

    More than that, I feel weird being the only person paid to do this work. (I’m the only employee)

    1. Me*

      Can you set up an appreciation program based on volunteer hours?

      For example at the 100 hour mark you get a mug. At 200 hours you get something else. At 500 etc etc etc.

      I like hours better than years or months due to the nature of volunteer work.

    2. TooTiredToThink*

      As someone who has only ever volunteered; my gut reaction was – Send notes after each big event and do gifts once a year. But it also depends on how many big events you have per year and what the workload is like for your heavy hitters versus your more casual crew.

      My other gut reaction was – as often as you feel appropriate, but please don’t feel weird being the only employee.

    3. Colette*

      Write individual, specific notes telling them why you appreciate what you do specifically. I’d aim for once a year, with maybe another note if there’s some out-of-the-ordinary event they did a lot for.

    4. Overeducated*

      A professional acquaintance posted on Twitter yesterday that a highlight of her day was a phone call from one of her volunteers who was excited to have received a birthday card from the org – so that’s a nice once a year way to show appreciation.

    5. Former Expat*

      Handwritten note! I’m a regular volunteer and board member for a local NPO. They are so good at volunteer appreciation since they usually just do a handwritten note. It is perfect.

    6. Nanc*

      If you’re in the USA National Volunteer Week is usually the third week of April (I think). I volunteer at my local library and they always give every volunteer a bookmark, a card signed by all the staff, a potluck lunch with the dishes provided by staff (but your’e a staff of one so maybe not that!) and a $5 coffee card. They also give out birthday cards to volunteers. You could just plan on honoring everyone like that but if someone is going above and beyond a personal note is a great way to go.
      I’m pretty sure most folks who volunteer do it because we believe in the organization but we do appreciate kudos!

    7. Blue Eagle*

      I volunteered at a nature-related site. Every year they had a volunteer pancake dinner with real maple syrup where they gave all volunteers who put in over X number of hours (I don’t remember how many it was) a nature-related book – different book every year, in which was a hand-written note from the director. Most of the volunteers looked forward to the book and especially liked the notes – which were tailored to the individual volunteers and not a one-size-fits-all note. Best is I have a nice library of nature books. (and thankfully NO mugs!)

    8. Drago Cucina*

      We try and do an annual volunteer open house appreciation party. Light snacks and games and a little gift. It’s often been in February (We love our volunteers!) as April is crazy busy around here.

      If you have family volunteer projects you can earn Disney World park hopper tickets that can be used as drawings among your volunteers. https://www.pointsoflight.org/disneyrewards/

    9. Jaid*

      My parents are docents at a museum and get reciprocal visit privileges at some of the other museums in the city.

      Can a bunch of non-profits get together and celebrate their volunteers with a luncheon?

  135. GigglyPuff*

    Does anyone who works in a museum have any advice for a phone interview?
    I’m a librarian and have mainly been applying to academic, where I’ve worked before and am in government now, but a large museum has their own library department, and I got a phone interview, yay! But I’ve never interviewed for a museum before, I mean, I’m assuming it’s pretty much like other library interviews, but thought I’d ask.

    1. MuseumChick*

      Museums and libraries are basically half siblings so you I wouldn’t worry to much. What kind of position are you applying for?

      One thing, make sure you know their mission statement. Look through their website to see if they are, for example, accredited by the AAM, or are a Smithsonian Affiliate.

      You will no doubt get the question “Why do you want to work here?” and “have you ever been here before?” By knowing what I laied out above it can help your answer be very strong. For example, if you were interviewing for a curatorial position:

      Typical answer: “Well, I LOVE history and visited you guys once on a school trip in the third grade.”

      Your answer: “I was very impressed to see you’ve been accredited by the American Alliance of Museums. As someone who is passionate about curatorial best practices that really caught my eye.” (AAM sets the best practices standards)

    2. magnusarchivist*

      You might want to pay attention to or ask about their reporting structure and access policies. A library that reports to a museum curator or an education department might be run very differently than one that reports to a librarian at the top.

      Likewise priorities will shift depending on whether the library, the catalog, and the collections/stacks are accessible to the public. Some museums really want to get the general public into their reading rooms, some have restricted access for various reasons (some defensible some…less). But if you’re used to serving a defined community of academic users, switching to a museum that’s gung-ho about providing resources to general public might be a big change.

      Good luck!

    3. Anon Librarian*

      I have worked in both museums and libraries. I would agree with magnusarchivist that museums can have a very different structure, so you may try to see if you can find a staff chart on their website to get a feel for how they are structured as an institution. This might help you as you try to decide what to ask.

    4. Librarian In the Academy*

      The big difference between academic and special libraries has to do with a philosophy of service.

      In academic libraries you are trying to teach the students how to use the library at the same time you are helping them look for information, so you tell them how to find something and expect them to go do it.

      In a special library such as this one, your clients know what they want; they want you to find it and bring it to them. You might point that out if the subject of service comes up.

  136. Little Beans*

    Should I be concerned that my employee has non-work appointments scheduled when she’s working from home?

    I supervise an employee who works from home one day per week. She negotiated this when she was hired and I inherited the arrangement. Overall, she is a fantastic employee – very good at her job, great attitude, gets long with everyone. She’s also always willing to stay late, or work the occasional evening or weekend event when needed so I really don’t want to nitpick her hours. We’re all exempt, and we all work flexible hours. That said, I have recently noticed that she sometimes has non-work related events marked on her calendar on her work from home days, sometimes for a few hours each. Normally, any of us might leave early or come in late because of a doctor’s appointment or whatever, and still mark down a full day’s work but I’m wondering at what point it becomes too much? There was also at least one occasion when she said she would work on a specific project at home one day, and it didn’t get done. Is there a good way for me to start assessing what she is accomplishing on her work from home days that won’t be micromanaging? I definitely don’t want to start asking for a a daily log or anything like that.

    I know the traditional advice is to just look at if they are getting their work done but we work in an area where we will literally never get our work done. We could all work 80 hours a week and there would still be work to do. Basically, we are all always trying to find a balance between the work that is essential, the work that gives us fulfillment and the work that we are willing to let go undone.

    1. Psyche*

      Even if the work is never done, you can look at overall productivity. If she is doing less than you expect of her (less than her counterparts who don’t work from home) then you should bring it up. If there was only one occasion where a project didn’t get done I wouldn’t be too concerned. If it happens again you could always ask why. Odds are another project cropped up and took priority or the project was more complicated than expected and so while not complete, she did work on it.

    2. AudreyParker*

      I think the ability to schedule appointments during the day is considered one of the benefits of WFH, but agree that should not shorten the workday by 3 hours. When my last workplace started allowing more WFH they put together a full policy of how the employee should hold up their end of the agreement – do you have something like that in place? I don’t remember the full scope, but they did say the person needed to stipulate how they would be available for contact (i.e. via email and messenger), and I remember having to tell my manager what I would be working on that day and then close out the day with an email saying what I’d done/where I was with what I was working on. So maybe asking for something like an end-of-day check-in email from them would help?

    3. blink14*

      Coming at this from a different angle – I typically only work from home when I have an appointment in the middle of the day, a house related issue going on, etc. My job is really best suited to being on site and in the office, so I use the option of working from home when I really need to be home, or an appointment would be more disruptive to working in the office vs. working from home and stepping out for the time needed. Occasionally I will also work from home instead of taking a sick day.

      My assumption is that she’s likely treating her work from home days like this, except she may be over scheduling things for that one day a week, since she’s home, instead of spreading out appointments over a work week. I would say generally, if her work is getting done and is done well, probably not a big concern. However, if she’s missing tasks or projects specifically assigned for that day, it’s worth asking what happened – maybe something like “I thought you had planned to start X on Monday (work from home day), did something come up last minute?” or along those lines.

      1. Ali G*

        Yeah this. And do you know she left the house for the appointment? Because when you have a contractor coming, it’s normal for them to give you a window of arrival. So something blocked off for 12-3 pm could literally be an appointment where she just needs to let someone in and show them what needs to be fixed (I once stayed home to wait for a delivery with a 4 hour window. So I was home all day for what amounted to me not working for like 20 min).

        1. blink14*

          Agreed, you can’t take someone’s calendar habits as solid evidence, unless you can actually see the details. She also could be blocking time to work on specific work related items.

    4. TooTiredToThink*

      Would you be concerned if she had been working in the office that day and she’d stepped out for a doctor’s appointment mid-day and still marked down a full day? If not; then I think that’s your answer. I know I often schedule my doctor’s visits for days I telework but that’s simply because they are closer to my house than my office and so I actually spend less time out than I would have if I’d been in the office that day. Of course; I’m assuming that it was a doctor’s appointment that she was at for the couple of hours.

      And like Psyche said; if it happens again, just ask her why the project wasn’t able to get done.

    5. Angelinha*

      You say “We’re all exempt, and we all work flexible hours” as well as “Normally, any of us might leave early or come in late because of a doctor’s appointment or whatever, and still mark down a full day’s work.”

      To me, this says that she’s allowed to miss work because of appointments! I’d say the answer to “at what point does it become too much?” is however you’d answer that for someone who doesn’t work from home. If you’d be fine with an in-office employee taking off for an appointment you have to be ok with a WFH employee doing the same thing.

      Plus, she’s literally putting these things on her calendar. It might be one thing if she were pretending to be working a full day knowing you weren’t going to know if she was at her computer or whatever. But she’s being totally transparent about it, probably because she’s seen from the way everyone else is treated that it is fine to attend appointments during the work day as an exempt employee.

    6. MissDisplaced*

      Well, I usually do try to schedule my dentist or doctor appointments specifically on my WFH days because it saves an hour’s drive or more.

      Regarding the project: It’s hard to say. Was it clearly spelled out she needed to have this project DONE on that day? Did something else come up she needed to work on? I’m not sure if the one project you give as an example is really a good indicator that she didn’t work on it at all… just that it didn’t get completed? It’s possible, but I’d look at ALL of her projects and work overall. In general does she meet deadlines in a timely manner and produce the same amount of work as others?

      You might also want to review your sick time policy. Just because someone is WFH doesn’t mean they don’t have to follow the same policy. At my company, sick time must be taken in a 4-hour block, even if you only have a 1-hour appointment. So technically, even if I do schedule them on my WFH day and it only takes me 1 hour at the dentist, I’ll still be off 4 hours, so it can appear as though I’m not “working.” But that IS following the policy, I’m just not coming in and out of the office.

      I don’t know the nature of her appointments, but I’m assuming if she puts them on her calendar, she’s being transparent about it and/or following some policy. I think it’s best to continue to try and be flexible on this. And if something does definitely need to be completed on a WFH day, make sure that is clearly communicated it has a hard deadline that day or at a specific time so she can make adjustments if necessary.

    7. pharmacat*

      Well, you say this – she is a fantastic employee – very good at her job, great attitude, gets long with everyone. She’s also always willing to stay late, or work the occasional evening or weekend event when needed so I really don’t want to nitpick her hours.” — yet here you are, nitpicking her hours. If you go there, she could very well refuse all weekend work, overtime, evenings…think of the consequences before you start this.

  137. Job Hunting with Bell's Palsy*

    My husband retired last year and we are moving in about a month (house bought, in escrow, etc). He has decided that he wants to go back to teach once we get settled. About two weeks ago, he was struck with Bell’s Palsy – a temporary condition that paralyzes one side of your face, usually caused by a virus. He currently has a wear a eye patch, and is just now starting to regain some movement in the left side of his face (his ear moves when he grimaces). His language is also affected. There is no definitive timeline as to when he will recover – we have heard that it should take at least a few months. Has anybody ever job hunted with Bell’s Palsy? Anybody ever dealt with Bell’s Palsy? How long did it take for you recover?

    1. Armchair Analyst*

      I think teaching in general is an exceptionally generous and open-minded industry. There is a WONDERFUL teacher in my area with very noticable Tourette’s syndrome – he yells sounds and jerks his head as his tics. This has not stopped him from being nationally recognized for his teaching skills! Think of the MANY teachers in America who have learned English as a second language. Your husband’s awkward speech skills, as long as a student can generally understand him, will fit right back in, especially if he has references and his degrees and certifications, etc. He’ll be fine.

    2. Job Hunting with Bell's Palsy*

      Thank you for your perspective. Teaching is truly a generous an open-minded profession. A few of his old students have asked to come see him. Perhaps this would be a good trial run. I think we are both surprised at how much he has missed it.

    3. The Gollux (Not a Mere Device)*

      It took me about a month to recover most of the way, but it sounds as though my case may not have been as severe as his. (It’s been a dozen years, so the details are fuzzy.)

      I wouldn’t have wanted to job hunt with it, but that’s partly because I had side effects from the treatment: my doctor treated it with prednisone, which had stimulant side effects. The eye patch made it possible to sleep, but sleep deprivation plus the way steroids can affect mood were a bad combination as far as getting things done.

      I am not a doctor, and don’t know the details of your husband’s case, but if they’ve treating it with steroids and slowly decreasing the dosage, I’d suggest waiting until he is done with the steroids to start job hunting. (Moving can be quite tiring enough, even if he wasn’t sick.)

    4. Wulfgar*

      My husband woke up one morning, and his right side was sagging; he had Bell’s Palsy. It took him about a year to get back to about 99%. He’s still not 100% after three or four years. His right eye still has a little droop, but probably not enough for strangers to notice. He does have chronic dry eye in his right eye now. I don’t know if it helped, but he went to the chiropractor during the worst of it.

    5. First Things First*

      Sorry to hear that!
      It took me about a month to recover – what helped me was acupuncture. I understand it’s important to take Prednisone within 24 hours, and the acupuncture can alleviate any side effects of that and work on clearing the palsy itself.
      I definitely had hard time with pronunciation and felt self-conscious, so I would probably give interviewers heads up and explain a bit about Bells’ Palsy.
      Side note: I was struck with Bell’s Palsy after hearing about family member being hospitalized – for me, this was a scary reminder/realization of not having any control over the well-being and possible death of my loved ones. No control over that translated to no control over half of my face. It took me a bit to put it together but once I did, I believe that dealing with the emotional side of it all was helpful too.
      Best wishes for fast and smooth recovery and successful job hunting to your husband.

  138. AudreyParker*

    Still floundering in job search and kind of grasping at straws. For reference, my background is basically low level software/tech/serious games project management (did not run the whole project, ran parts of it, so not really a PM) with bits and pieces of other things attached that don’t really add up to “expertise” that I feel I can call out. I feel like I need to add to my skill set, but what that means is pretty ambiguous. I look at the General Assembly workshop offerings and there are several that sound interesting (I can’t afford the time/money for a full-time bootcamp), and of course there are offerings on Udemy, Coursera etc. Has anyone added a skill set or type of skill set to their repertoire that was a game changer in their job search? I’m at a point where I feel like I can only compete with the recent grads in the job market, despite having many more years of actual work experience, and desperately need to differentiate myself with… something…

    1. A Person*

      I would hope that while applying to PM roles your existing project management experience would give you a big leg up, likely much more than a recent grad who doesn’t have that sort of job experience! I can’t speak for other companies, but my company definitely seems to prefer even an “entry-level” PM to have other work experience rather than being straight out of school…

      1. AudreyParker*

        My problem has been finding any kind of “entry level” PM jobs to apply for (or at least ones that aren’t also entry level salary). There seems to be “admin” and “PM with 8 years experience and PMP certification.” Any search for “project coordinator” leads to construction roles, definitely not my industry! So it feels like my company was in the minority in having roles that are in the middle.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          A lot of tech companies are moving to Agile, and you’d probably be the equivalent of a Scrum Master. Take a couple of on-line classes in Agile and start mapping your experience to it, then job search using Agile terms.

          Even the ‘Project Manager’ offerings in my area (US South, tech hub) have ‘Scrum Master’ in the listing.

          1. Jules the 3rd*

            ps – most the programmers I know loathe the idea of being a project manager / scrum master, so you’re actually in a very good position, you just have to know the wider industry terms.

          2. A Person*

            That’s a really good idea!

            You could also look into something like a Project Manager if you’re interested in that, although it’s definitely a different sort of thing.

          3. AudreyParker*

            I’d been considering this as one option, since I am generally familiar with how Agile works, just not in a formal way – thanks! I actually don’t much like PM work and would rather find a way to eventually segue into something more hands-on, but am trying to focus on where I can get a more immediate win right now, and I know that’s not it…

            1. Darren*

              If you get (or already have) a degree (or at least a diploma) in IT, plus your current experience and you actually can do hands on development (so you can pass the technical screens) you shouldn’t have too much trouble landing an interview for a hands-on development role.

  139. DamnitIwishIhadcaughtit*

    I made a mistake today with the amount of money our client would be recieving in a letter to a client (boss did not catch it before it went out, but he emailed me and a client to note the typo)

    When he talks to me about this in person, I want to explain that I skipped all my breaks and lunch the day it happened and I now see that breaks are important to keep the mind alert to catch errors.

    However, I dont want to make it sound like I am using it as an excuse, it was my job to catch the error and I didnt.

    Script suggestions from commenters would be lovely.

    1. Adlib*

      I’m curious as to whether he will talk to you about it at all. You say he emailed you and the client about it. Is this something that is a pattern for you or is it just an anomaly and you usually are very conscientious at work? If you are sure he’s going to talk to you, and it’s not a usual error, you could just tell him you weren’t at your best that day and apologize sincerely. I don’t think it’s worth trying to explain all the reasons behind it (breaks, etc.) if you are normally not prone to many mistakes.

    2. CatCat*

      What about something like:

      “It was my job to catch the error and I didn’t. In reflecting about what happened that day, I realized I had skipped my breaks and lunch, which impacted my level of alertness when I wrote the letter. Knowing this impact, going forward, I will take proper breaks to keep my mind sharp and prevent repeating a mistake like this.”

      1. DamnitIwishIhadcaughtit*

        These are all great suggestions! Thank you everyone.

        Im still fairly new, second month in.

        Some skip breaks but its not generally the culture here and i definitely skip too many.

    3. blink14*

      Is skipping breaks and/or lunch a common thing in your office or for you specifically? If it is, that’s a larger conversation. If it was a one time thing, or happens only rarely when there’s an unusually high work load, I think it’s sufficient to say were buried with X and Y, even skipping breaks, and therefore your attention to detail slipped.

  140. Teach-Y-Oh*

    I am in an education field and have had a lot of education-related part-time jobs in addition to K-12 classroom teaching. I have worked at museums, other non-profits, mentoring/training jobs with adult learners, etc. These jobs have taught me important and transferable* skills, but I’m not sure about a couple things:

    1. Should I somehow make it clear that these jobs are part-time? Do employers assume that a job on your resume is full-time unless specified otherwise?

    2. My teaching jobs are taking up a lot of room for basically the same key responsibilities. It seems silly to repeat that I “effectively communicated with a diverse body of students and families” for every job where I was a middle school science teacher…..and yet if I only list that for one position does it make it look like I didn’t do that at my other teaching jobs? Is there a way to summarize all the generic teacher stuff into one description and then just have a list of schools and dates underneath?

    *I am hoping to move into a more full-time role in an education-related field, so I want my resume to highlight my skills in many areas.

  141. Adlib*

    Hi everyone and happy Friday!

    I know I can’t be the first to experience this.

    I’m a database administrator on a program at work. I have a friend I used to work with who works at the software vendor for that program. The software company wants me to come work for them, but because we have a client relationship, per their legal department, I would have to go to my boss and say “I want to work for Vendor, but I need your permission to talk to them.” How in the world does that work? I don’t think my boss would fire me immediately, but that’s almost akin to putting in my notice because I’m essentially saying I want to leave. (I am planning to leave anyway; I am also interviewing for another less exciting job.)

    Has anyone gone through this particular situation before? I’m going to the Vendor’s conference next week so I hope to be able to talk more intimately/off the record with them. I really do want to work for them as I know the software inside and out, and my friend tells me my potential new boss is highly interested in recruiting me. I guess I could always just quit outright and THEN go talk to them, but that’s a huge risk.

    1. TooTiredToThink*

      That seems really odd to me because it doesn’t sound like its a conflict of interest – but IANAL. That being said, could you phrase it as “You know, I really enjoy working with this software. I’m thinking that when its time to move up, I might look into working for them. What do you think?”

      1. techPerson*

        I work on the software side of a similar issue- the issue isn’t “conflict of interest” but instead that we basically have an anti-poaching agreement with all of our customers. We’re not going to attempt to recruit away their highly skilled workers unless they are happy with it.

        1. Adlib*

          Yes, I think that was how it was put: “anti-poaching”. It’s a bummer, but I understand it.

    2. Triplestep*

      In your shoes I would wait and see if you could have some off-the-record conversations at the event. Just be very careful. Sounds like they may want you enough for you to be sure before you go to your boss and mention it.
      As for this other less exciting job, I would judge it against your present job and on it’s own merits if they make you an offer. Don’t compare it to vendor’s job which might never come to anything. (I hope it does, but things fizzle for no reason all the time.)

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        no no no no no.

        Vendor’s legal department is saying he’s got to get signoff before he can talk to them about employment. Do not try to go around that and talk to them off-the-record, it could kill your chances of being hired. IANAL, but there’s anecdotes around about it.

        Have a conversation with your boss about career paths – what would you need to move forward at the current job, are there classes the company will pay for? As part of that, say, 2T2T’s script, ‘I really enjoy working with this software. I’m thinking that when its time to move up, I might look into working for them.” but add, ‘Can I discuss job openings with them?’ not ‘what do you think’. If he says no, you may have to either quit without something new lined up or hop to less interesting job for a year.

        It sounds like you’re stuck dealing with non-compete / non-poaching clauses, which are very common in Silicon Valley, Seattle, and growing in other tech hubs. If that’s the case, you need to be very clear when you talk about it with your boss. He should be aware of the chance you’ll be lured away, but yeah, some bosses are jerks about it. Save up some cash just in case you get pushed out before you’re ready.

        There should be more specific job boards for your area and industry, there’s weird things around the non-competes that people outside the industry / areas can only vaguely understand. I’m tech adjacent – work for a tech co and a lot of my friends are in Silicon Valley / Seattle, so I’ve heard some ‘argh, I lost that job because I talked to them in violation of the non-poaching contract’ anecdotes.

    3. techPerson*

      I work on the software side in a similar situation. We have a number of domain experts who are very knowledgable and work fulltime analyzing and giving feedback on our software and what features are important &etc. There are a number who were hired from basically your situation and it was very amiable and good. The customer side liked the idea of having someone they knew well and whose judgement they trusted on the inside while we enjoyed having their expertise.

      I’m not sure what exactly the process was but I would imagine it would be good on the customer side to talk to your boss, assuming a reasonable boss, and say “Hey, I’m not generally looking for just any other job, but I heard about X position over with Vendor, which sounds like it could be a good fit for me. I know it’s really important for us and them to have a good relationship, and I know we have an agreement requiring permission from the top if they were to hire me. Can I get your feelings about this, and whether you think I’d be approved from up top if I applied over there?”

    4. Adlib*

      Thanks everyone for your input. I’m glad to have the additional insight. I’ll see how next week goes. I know why they don’t, but I wish they’d assume some risk themselves instead of making me do it, but I know I’m not worth losing a huge client for!

      I am still looking at going somewhere so I appreciate the advice on that too from Triplestep. :)

  142. Environmental Compliance*

    Not sure if the little hairs on the back of my neck were overreacting or what.

    One day this week, I came into the office about 40 minutes late, because I needed to go to the Recorder’s office to get a copy of our deed & all easements associated with it for the facility. My supervisor was aware. We have a very flexible start/end time, and I am often out in the facility and not even at my desk.

    Apparently, starting about 15 minutes after I’m generally in, Coworker was freaking out to multiple other coworkers that I was not in yet. What if something happened to me? Where did EC go? (Note that our jobs do not rely on each other, we are peers, and while we often may need to work together, our work is still separate.) He then jumped on my supervisor and wanted to know where I was, why doesn’t anyone keep track of EC……in this though, he did not email or text me a single time.

    When I got back, the response was to lurch across the office and excitedly tell me that I wasn’t dead. Well, no?

    I’m a bit weirded out about this. It probably doesn’t help that he will come to me asking questions about health insurance (ok, I’m happy to tell you where to find information, but I do not want to discuss your dr’s appts thanks, I’m not in any way connected to HR or insurance, I do environmental things, please go talk to HR), he’ll just walk into my office, pause, say how YOU doin’, then walk away…. I don’t know. Perhaps I just need a Coworker Break.

    1. irene adler*

      Forty minutes and he’s freaking out??
      Please!
      I’d be bothered by this too.

      Coworker just needs to butt out of what isn’t his concern/business.
      Maybe he needs some additional work tasks to concentrate on.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        I can’t quite put my finger on *why* it bothers me, I think is what’s bothering me about feeling bothered about it. My schedule can vary over an hour, so 40 minutes isn’t even bat-an-eye level. If I’m not in by noon, maybe question it, but even then….I’m probably out doing something.

        And why not just text me directly instead of asking literally everyone else around??

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          It’s weird because he’s not someone who should care if you’re out, so showing this level of care means he’s over-invested in you on a personal level. It’s the first stage in stalkerhood. Might not progress to the later stages, but your Gift of Fear (to quote Gavin de Becker) is starting.

          1. Environmental Compliance*

            Thank you for putting it succinctly! I usually trust my gut pretty well (and will be forever thankful to my grandma for teaching me to listen to it). I just also couldn’t quite get to why (in words) I was bothered… in case it reoccurs and I need to do something about it.

    2. Ama*

      This is weird. And if your supervisor didn’t tell him to butt out when coworker talked to him, that isn’t great.

      I’d also stop telling him even where to find information when he talks to you about things that aren’t your job. Just a “I can’t help you with that, go ask HR.” Keep it polite but as short as possible. It sounds to me like he is overly invested in you and has decided your being willing to talk to him means you have a closer relationship in his mind than you actually do.

      But you also should feel free to go to HR or his manager if he continues to be super focused on your whereabouts because that’s inappropriate.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        Supervisor did! Thankfully he told him it was really none of his business. (Unfortunately Boss also forgot what I was out doing, but assumed I was working and doing something important, so there’s that I guess, lol. Apparently Boss looked rather aghast the question was even being asked.)

        Yeah, I’ve been very firm (recently) on the nope, sorry, ask HR. I think you zeroed in why I feel so uncomfortable with it!! Over-investment is exactly it.

        1. valentine*

          He’s also flirting with you. (And can anyone but Joey really pull off that line?) Maybe it’s all flirting. It’s definitely excuses to speak to you. It’s gross he’s making you work for him and wasting your time.

          Stop redirecting him. It’s scratching his itch. Shut him down. Tell him, “If it’s not EC, don’t come to me.”

  143. Language, please!*

    A question asked last week brought up an experience that I had several years ago, and I’d love to know how you would have handled it. I was working in a professional office as an accountant. There was a change in management, and a former employee of the firm was brought in to be one of my bosses (I had a direct supervisor who reported to my new boss). Anyway, my new boss had a salty tongue and would drop the f-bomb often. Not having the best poker face, I’m sure I cringed, as that’s not language I use or was used to hearing. (Full disclosure, I am about twenty years older than she is, and had been a SAHM for several years.) I never said anything, as she was my boss, but one day I was called into a private meeting with my supervisor and was asked as to whether or not I disapproved of her language, and I said yes. Going forward, she really tried hard to watch herself around me, and never disparaged me about it. My question is, how could I have handled it better?

    1. Triplestep*

      I don’t have a poker face either, so while “salty” language doesn’t bother me, I know I made faces when most recent former boss engaged in name-calling our partners in other departments. She stopped after she saw I wasn’t the right audience for that, and the first indication was my expression I’m sure.

      I don’t know if your handling of this situation needed to be better – was there a problem with her changing her watching herself and not disparaging you?

      In your shoes, I think I would have felt put on the spot – it would have been better for her not to ask if you “disapproved”. If someone asked me that, I’d probably say “I don’t know if ‘disapprove’ is the right word, but it took me aback just because I’m not used to hearing it in the workplace.” The outcome probably would have been the same, but you don’t come off as holding “approval authority” over someone’s language. But again, she put you in that position, so she probably was OK with your answer.

  144. Fat Baby*

    Advice on instilling a sense of urgency for staff?
    I ask about next steps on projects and get a vague “it’s on my radar.” I’m looking for a more specific update or at least let it be the nudge that gets them from radar to in progress… What’s a better way to say well get it off your radar and get working on it!

    2. fposte*

      “Jane, I need to be clearer on the stage of completion. Can you send me a one-paragraph description of what’s been accomplished and what’s left to do? Thanks.”

      It also sounds like maybe you should be meeting with them more often along the way rather than just asking them. A regular meeting would give you a chance to check on obstacles, clarify misunderstandings, create interim target dates, etc., without it being an out-of-the-blue deal.

      1. CatCat*

        Agree if Fat Baby is the manager!

        I definitely read it in a different way making an assumption based on my own context. (Like staff from one department asking staff of a different department where there is some overlap on the project.)

        2. fposte*

          Yes, I totally read it as her being the manager–this definitely wouldn’t be a plan for a colleague!

    3. Havarti*

      Do your projects have deadlines for the different steps? A concrete date would certainly instill a sense of urgency if it’s fast approaching!

    4. The New Wanderer*

      I think literally saying “I’m looking for a more specific update” is a good prompt in the moment, possibly coupled with a reminder of the deadline. These are your staff and you know them best, but as written it kind of sounds like they’re blowing you off. I can imagine saying it’s on my radar to a colleague, if I saw the question as a low-key inquiry, but if my manager asked about something I’d definitely be responding with actual dates or a time frame.

  145. Triplestep*

    In the earlier five questions for today, LW#3 referred to a “Case Study” as part of her candidacy for a job, and also mentioned a second language as a preferred qualification.

    Can anyone shed some light on what a “Case Study” with respect to a hiring process? Coincidentally, yesterday my son sent me a link to the job post for a role he’s applying to at a European company, and when I poked around the website, they list “Case Study” as part of the hiring process. They also want a second language. The job is in the US. I’m really just curious about this; is it a European thing? “Case Study” seems like it would be a work sample?

    1. Rainy*

      Depends on the field. In my field, we often use case studies in order to determine that someone is aware of best practices/knows what theories to apply in a given client situation/get an idea of how they work with clients.

      Case studies are also required for licensing exams, if one of the routes you took to our profession was through a counseling program.

    2. Environmental Compliance*

      I was also wondering what exactly that would entail! Not something you have in my field.

    3. leya*

      i think the term “case study” varies widely by field; as you probably already know, it has one meaning in medicine (not with respect to job hunting but with respect to research). i work in finance, and financial analyst candidates have to do a case study as one of the final rounds of the interview process. the gist is: they’re given a public company and asked to build a financial model (essentially a spreadsheet that serves as a financial snapshot of the company with their revenues, expenses, etc., all built out) and a presentation that gives their thesis on the company (an analysis of their business, what their biggest challenges are, whether they think it’s a good stock to buy). where i work, candidates have about a week to complete this, or they do a modified version of it in two hours in person. this work is pretty much everything that an analyst does, so seeing the way that they work and how they analyze companies is crucial. i know this is specific to my industry, but i hope it helps!

  146. Alice*

    It’s a bit late but I have an interview on Monday so I guess I’ll try asking. Any advice on how to handle the fact that I don’t have a certain skill that is pretty crucial for my job title? It’s something like… I’m an editor but I don’t use word processors in my current job because my manager prefers to use typewriters. (Not the actual example but hopefully gets the idea of how ludicrous this all might sound to a prospective employer.)

    I’ve used word processors in college and I’m slowly teaching myself in my spare time; my skills as an editor are otherwise excellent and I know I could learn quickly if I started working in an office that used word processors. A big reason why I’m job searching is I’m afraid of not acquiring skills that are fundamental for my chosen career. I am sure that, given the chance, I would quickly catch up with my peers who have more experience with word processors.

    There is going to be some discussion of how proficient I am with word processors during the interview. I’m not going to lie but I don’t know what to say so they don’t completely write me off. Most recruiters looking for someone with 3+ years of experience as an editor (which I have) implicitly expect 3+ years of experience using word processors (which I don’t have…)

    1. merp*

      I’m not sure how similar this is but I ended up in a role that might feasibly be expected to know how to build a large multi-user database with my only database experience being from one class in grad school. In my case, I emphasized my methods in teaching myself new things and technologies, the progress I’d made, and since they liked what else they saw in me (initiative, other experience, teamwork), they picked me knowing I’d have tech skills to learn when I get here. So it’s certainly about where the hiring manager’s priorities lie, but your plan makes sense. I think making it clear that you do have some experience (and are taking initiative on it yourself on top of that) and are a fast learner is a good way to approach it.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I’m going to step aside from the common euphemisms and use an example from my own work — I work with medical coders, and while training and education programs (and certification exams) use physical codebooks most of the time, my team uses primarily online databases as reference material instead. If someone comes in to interview for my team, I’m less concerned about the idea that they’ve done all their coding to date out of paper books and never really used an encoder database, as long as they can make it evident to me that they understand the process of code assignment. Like, I don’t care how they look up the right code, whether it’s in a book or an encoder program or by the grace of Google, I just care that they know how to interpret the documentation and determine what the correct code IS. I can teach them how to use our software – I don’t have the time in our training process to teach them how to think like coders.

      So for your purposes, I’d be looking for something like “My current employer uses typewriters, not word processors, but I have a pretty good history of picking up new technologies quickly, and the typewriter process is similar to the word processor process in that they have the same keyboards, so there is some carry-over. I’ve also, say, taken a few online tutorials about the use of word processors, and done some Coursera work with the Jones model, and I’m confident that I would be able to pick up the fine details quickly. “

    3. Weegie*

      You could say something like: ‘That’s definitely a gap I’ve identified in my skillset, chiefly because I’ve been required to use a different technology in my current position. So I’m aware of it as a training need – how do you usually support training for incoming staff?’

    4. irene adler*

      Find out how much you’ll use the word processing skill in the job BEFORE you volunteer anything about your level of experience with it.
      Get them to tell you how much it is needed or the level of proficiency will be expected.
      They may be rather flexible on the experience regarding this skill-esp. if you possess other skills they desire.

    5. Rust1783*

      I think you can frame this as a positive – you have SOME experience with word processors and you’ve taken the initiative to learn more about them, but you have 3+ years experience approaching this job from a different angle, and that can be valuable. If I were you, I would play that up. You don’t have to convince them that they should switch to typewriters, but you could point out ways that typewriters were or were not a successful choice for your current job and talk about how that gives you a broader perspective on the industry. I would also be very frank about how, as much as this perspective has been useful, you do want to move into a position that allows more sophisticated use of word processors, so you can reconnect with and bolster your word processing experience and training.

      1. Alice*

        Thank you! And to everyone else who replied too! I’m about to go out for a very much earned night out after a long week, but I just stopped halfway through getting dressed to read all the replies twice, I’m suddenly much more hopeful for my interview. Or for the next one if this doesn’t pan out. I suffer from impostor’s syndrome and a year ago I wouldn’t have dreamed of applying for a job if I didn’t fit every single requirement, so this is a big step for me. I will prepare some answers in line with the good suggestions here.
        (And lol I will not even try to suggest they switch to typewriters as… well… they are not working well in my current job /at all/ and tried to suggest we switch to the industry standard several times with no avail, leading to much frustration and my current job search…)

    6. The Ginger Ginger*

      I think you’ll want to be pretty clear about how much work you’ve done to close the gap yourself. What resources you’re using to teach yourself the skills you need (and you want them to be well-respected and standard resources). Show them it won’t just be on them to provide you with the training you need, but it will be a matter of teamwork between you, where you’ve already put in some groundwork. That will go some ways to address concerns they may have about your candidacy. If you go in and just tell them you know you need training and they’ll have to give it to you, they’re going to wonder if they’re going to have to spoon feed you that training and how motivated you’ll be to learn if they’re not holding your hand.

      Also, I think if you can work into the interview your comment about wanting to be somewhere where you’ll have to learn and use industry standard technology, and not wanting to fall behind because of your current position, I think that will be another way to spin this positively. Moving companies is another way YOU are taking initiative to address what you see as a deficit in your skill set. Obviously you don’t want your candidacy to be all about how it benefits you, but if you can frame it non-arrogantly I think it’s a decent talking point paired with what efforts you’re already making to address the deficit.

      Good luck!

  147. Yikes*

    Hey everyone!

    I’m not sure if this is the right place to ask this question, but frustration is starting to seep in, so I figured I’d ask.

    I’m about to graduate from a prestigious university on the East Coast with a BA in three weeks and I’m actively looking for a position in government, law, or policy. My plan is to work for a year or two before going to grad school. So far, I’ve had several good leads, but nothing has manifested into an offer. I’ve gotten two final round interviews, one of which I’m waiting for a final decision (but I’m not super optimistic) and one in which I was a “finalist” (which means I may get an offer if someone declines). Since I’m getting interviews, I don’t think my resume/cover letter are the problem, and I haven’t actively heard any negative feedback on my interviewing when I’ve asked.

    Most of these jobs are in DC or New York, but my problem is that I’m originally from Alaska. If I graduate without a job, should I go back to Alaska and apply for jobs from there? Or should I get a cheap sublet on the East Coast and apply for jobs from there? I’m worried that if I go back to Alaska, it’ll be nearly impossible to get hired in these types of jobs since I’ll be on the literal opposite end of the country and it’ll be hard for companies and agencies to fly me out for interviews.

    1. LaDeeDa*

      Congratulations on your upcoming graduation! If you can afford to stay in your preferred location for awhile do it– companies often assume that a person living out of state will want a relocation package and will pass them right over- even when you put that it isn’t necessary in your resume.

      1. valentine*

        Stay on the East Coast and get a really good lay of the land for where you want to live/work and how you want to commute.

    2. Less Bread More Taxes*

      If I were you, I’d try to stay somewhere close to where you want to work for at least the summer. Get an internship or other simple job and keep applying. It sounds like you’re a strong candidate, and I’m sure if you found a way to stick it out for a few more months, you’d find a job.

    3. blackcat*

      I’d find a cheap sublet with some college friends and try to pick up whatever work you can to make ends meet. Did you do a job in high school? Waiting tables? Babysitting?

      1. Yikes*

        I had three pretty solid internships in college, so I’m not super worried on the work experience front!

        1. blackcat*

          My point isn’t about work experience, but rather that there’s no shame in going back to the same gig you did in high school to make rent while you search for a “career” job.

    4. MissDisplaced*

      It will be much easier to find a job if you live near where you want to eventually work.
      If you were at school in say Philadelphia and wanted to work in New York City or Washington D.C., that probably isn’t too huge, as it’s a train ride to interview and eventual move of about an hour or two. But from Alaska… yeah, you’re a much harder sell compared to more local I-95 corridor candidates.

      I would try and find a cheap place to stay on for this summer at least so you can be more available for interviews in your field, even if it means another summer job outside of your field. Good luck!

    5. post it*

      I would suggest trying to stay on the East Coast, especially because you probably have loads of classmates moving to NY/DC/Boston right now so it’s a good time to find a cheap-ish place to live with roommates you at least kind of know. Congratulations! I know it’s a scary/frustrating time but it’s an exciting time too. :)

    6. automaticdoor*

      Check out Tom Manatos’s website. It’s the best source for DC govt/policy jobs I know of, and it’s a cheap sub.

      1. Yikes*

        I’m lucky enough that my university’s career services has a subscription that alumni can use, so I’ve been scouring that website pretty frequently.

    7. Gumby*

      Late reply but: also consider other short term housing options. I happened to be working as a nanny my senior year of college (paid way better than other part-time jobs) and was able to stay in that family’s guest room in exchange for nanny-ing for several months right after graduation. Or you could house-sit for people’s summer vacations. Just as other options while you don’t have much if any income.

  148. WellRed*

    In a disease specific healthcare group I belong to on facebook, someone posted that her boss with said disease asked her to find him information about the disease, etc. Lots of people directed her to links and resources which she was all excited to forward to herself, print off info and present it to boss. I, of course, replied with the AAM “Nope! Unless your job title is personal health assistant, what your boss is asking is totally inappropriate. Boundaries.” Naturally, I included a link to this site. Would it surprise you all to know it’s a small company where everyone is “like family.” That link may come in handy for her someday.

  149. LJay*

    My company just gave all of my non-HQ based employees 7% raises.

    They were already pretty well compensated for the industry, so the gesture was a really nice one.

    I am a little upset I didn’t get anything, but I’ll live.

    I’m more concerned that my 4 employees who are based at HQ did not receive anything, either.

    They already have the lowest payrate, due to being in the lowest cost of living area, and express frustration about that sometimes despite there being hard numbers behind it.

    There are no hard numbers behind this. I’ve just been told that they’re will likely get some sort of raise and it’s still in process.

    Meanwhile, they’re now making $4 less than the next lowest compensated area. I feel like this is going to get ugly fast and I don’t blame them one bit.

    Is there any good way to handle this? I can’t get raises for them pushed through any quicker than the company wants to do it.

    1. Less Bread More Taxes*

      What *can* you give them? Flexible schedules, work from home days, more vacation time? If so, do that! Sit them each down and let them know that you know they’re frustrated but that your hands are tied. Explain what you can give them, and let them choose what would work for them.

  150. LaDeeDa*

    “’ve used word processors in college and I’m slowly teaching myself in my spare time; my skills as an editor are otherwise excellent and I know I could learn quickly if I started working in an office that used word processors.”

    Is basically your answer. You tell them your proficiency level, and that based on past experience with processors and the self-learning you are doing, you are confident you could get your skills up to that required level within *time frame.*

    Also, if there is a free version of that software or if you can check it out from the library do so– or watch youtube how to videos- and tell them in the interview that as soon as you found out that is the thing they used, you started finding a way to learn more about it.

  151. Florida Man Anon*

    For interviewing – how can I NOT end up being called “bubbly and open”? During interviews, I’m running on anxiety and excitement since I really need a job to start paying the bills and to start a career switch (healthcare sucks, I want a desk job!). So I end up unconsciously being more friendlier than usual and with a higher pitched voice because paying bills is awesome.

    I’m worried that being characterized as “bubbly and open” will bite me in the ass later if I were to accept the position? Because I would never describe myself as that and I doubt my former coworkers would either (friendly maybe but not bubbly…). It’s just always been a “thing” where I get so nervous and worried about getting a job, that I end up being a little fake and interviewers then take it as me being uncharacteristically bubbly. Note that I CAN be bubbly and open by putting up a face for professional settings – I had to act like that all the time when dealing with horrible patients.

    This is just a little destressing to me, because people have told me that it’s OK to have a “fake” personality for work and that it doesn’t have to exactly match my own personality when I’m in private situations. But I would really want to start feeling more like myself in a new career, instead of sticking to my fake sweet friendliness that I built up from years of horrible customer service…

    1. MissGirl*

      I wouldn’t stress about this. First of all if you’re self-conscious about it, it’ll make you more uncomfortable. You’ll either get worse or you’ll go the other extreme and bury your personality.

      Also employees know interviewees are on their best behavior and that isn’t their everyday behavior. Unless you’re demeanor is at the complete opposite end of the spectrum as interview you, go forward with confidence.

    2. Psyche*

      Most people come off a little differently in an interview than they do normally because of nerves. I don’t think that it will really harm you if you accept a job and come across as “friendly” instead of “bubbly” after starting. You could try some breathing exercises while waiting for the interview to calm yourself down and pause for a deep breath if you find yourself “bubbling” more than you like, but that is really only if you feel uncomfortable about it.

    3. Alianora*

      I’m pretty similar. I don’t think anyone would ever describe me as bubbly, but I’m bubblier for sure in interviews due to a combination of nervous energy and trying to make a good impression. I don’t try to fake it once I’m in a new job — I just act like my normal self (friendly, but low-key). There’s a difference, but Interview Me and Work Me are both being genuine.

      The interview is just a chance to make a good impression. No one acts exactly the same way once they’re on the job — as long as you’re still friendly and professional, and you’re not intentionally putting on a fake personality in the interview, I don’t think it’s that big a deal.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      It’s likely that people won’t remember exactly how you were at the interview, or only vaguely “Florida Man seemed really enthusiastic!” rather than having established your reputation as bubbly. I doubt they’ll be phased at all if your standard daily work persona is Work-Pleasant (assuming your work persona is not, like, antagonistic loner) and not Bubbly.

  152. dorothy_parker*

    So I’ve had this ongoing frustration with someone on my team. I project manager a full time staffer and actually manage a part time staff member who work on this specific project under me. Sometimes I have a task or update and will send an email to both of them–if it’s a task that I send to both, I just typically ask that one of them take care of it. I’m not concerned with who does it because it’s a generic item that either can do. However, when I do this, I often get a response from the full timer who feels that I’m putting her at the same level as the part timer. I find this maddening as it is a task that both should be doing in their roles. She’s come to me about it before and I’ve tried to shut it down but I kind of just want to say “get over yourself and do your job”.

    It would be hugely inefficient for me to have to send two emails so that her ego isn’t bothered by looping them into one message (she’s said she doesn’t like that I start the email with anything like hey guys or hey both). I also don’t want to constantly go to one of them first because again, these are small tasks they both are responsible for doing in their jobs and it does not matter who does it as long as it’s handled (these are small tasks that take a few minutes). How do I push back on this in a way that won’t further upset her/acknowledge that I don’t view her as the same level as the part-time person (I roll my eyes at even having to write this because it feels so rude to the part time staff who, ya know, is a worthwhile human who does their job well and a key player on our team) but that I need to be efficient in handing off tasks that are in both of their job descriptions? ? ?

    1. Psyche*

      Let her be upset. I would tell her that for these particular tasks, they are on the same level. Obviously they have different jobs and you aren’t going to start delegating her work to the part timer, but you aren’t going to change your system for delegating these tasks.

    2. Michelle*

      I suggest having a 1 more meeting/discussion with her and say something along the lines of “I don’t view you and the part time staff member on the same level. You are full time and have duties/tasks to attend and they are part time and have different duties/tasks to attend to. This is task that either of you can do and it’s not a good use of my time to create 2 separate emails to get the task done. I’m also not going to start informal emails with ‘Hey Full Time Employee’ ‘Hey Part Time Employee’ because, again, it’s a simple informal email asking one of you to take care of the task. Knowing that this isn’t going to change, can you be reasonably happy working here?”. I don’t think that’s dramatic because the full time employee wants to be treated…special or like she’s somehow better because she works full time. She sounds like a lot of work.

      1. Autumnheart*

        “I don’t view you and the part time staff member on the same level.” I would absolutely not say this, or anything that would reinforce the idea that Full-Timer is “above” Part-Timer in status. That’s a dynamic you definitely don’t want to encourage.

    3. Alianora*

      She sounds really unpleasant. Seems like she doesn’t think these small tasks should be part of her job and the part-time worker is beneath her.

      I would probably stick to “I need both of you to be in the loop on this.” I wouldn’t apologize or acknowledge that you don’t view her at the same level as the part-time person because for this task, they are equals.

      If she keeps getting mad at you about it I would bring it to her manager. That could result in her manager telling her, “Yes, this is a part of your job, get over it,” or I could see them saying “Well, I actually think Coworker’s time is better spent on other things.” But a reasonable manager isn’t going to say, “She needs to keep doing the tasks but now you have to pretend that she’s better than Part-timer.”

    4. The New Wanderer*

      This isn’t specifically addressing the question you asked (which by the way I would address the emails to “hey team” to show that both people are on the team together, regardless of part or full time status). But it strikes me that it might be the open-ended nature of the request (“one of you please take care of this”), rather than the task itself, that might be rubbing the FT person the wrong way. As in FT might feel it’s more suited to PT and is thinking you should only ask PT to do those tasks. Is it possible to trade off specifically asking one or the other person to do the task (one email, but in week 1 you ask FT person to do it and week 2 you ask PT person to do it?

      Or if I’m misreading and it’s a task that they both have to do equally and FT is just irritated to be ‘grouped’ with PT in a joint email, … well that’s a different issue.

      1. valentine*

        Is it possible to trade off specifically asking one or the other person to do the task
        This is detrimental to the team. It has dorothy_parker assigning herself several extraneous tasks (including a variation to account for absences) to feed FT’s inflated ego.

  153. Ann Perkins*

    I returned from maternity leave (only 10 weeks, unpaid except short term disability) last month – how long do I need to wait before asking for a raise? For context, I’ve been at my employer for 5.5 years, 3 years in my current role. My last raise was 2 years ago after returning from my first maternity leave. I get rave reviews all around, and while it’s hard to research standard salary for my role because it’s specialized, my guess is they would be spending at least $15K annually more if I left and they had to hire someone new.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Are you all caught up with your role? I would just make sure you’re back at full-speed from your leave and then go for it. You don’t need to act like this leave is a huge imposition on them and should have ANYTHING to do with your value to the organization. You are due for a raise, health/life circumstances don’t count against you in a healthy employment environment.

      1. Ann Perkins*

        Mostly, but not completely. One of the frustrating things I discovered upon coming back was that the person who covered my role in the interim – and was given a bonus to do so – completely whiffed on one part of it that now I’m having to play catch up on. She offered to help once I brought it to her attention but got thrown into something else right around that time so I said I would do the catch up.

    2. Qwerty*

      When are performance reviews typically given at your company? That seems to be the best time to get raises, since you are already going over all of your accomplishments for the year.

      Ideally you’d want at least a few months after you come back from an extended leave (unless your annual review is during that time – in that case, go for it when the review happens). Part of the problem with being gone for a while is that people in the office learn to work around not having you there. Some people’s lives get harder when you aren’t around, but for other people they barely notice. You also need time to build up recent accomplishments that you can reference, since those carry more weight.

      1. Ann Perkins*

        It’s a small staff and we have no set review time unfortunately. I wasn’t given a performance review at all last year. That’s a good point about wanting some recent accomplishments to reference.

  154. Anonforthis*

    I’m super miffed by my job search. I thought my job search would get easier AFTER already having a job in my field, but I’ve been job searching in earnest since last August, and…still no job. I’ve done four total interviews – 3 final stage and 1 first stage. What do employers even want anymore??? I prepare hard for all my interviews – what else could I be doing? I got so burned out from interviewing last month I had to take a break from job searching – it’s a lot to have a full time job and job search full time, in addition to other life duties. Also, all my interviews are 4 hours long, and I have to take a sick day everytime I want to go in for an interview. It’s a lot.

    1. Autumnheart*

      I’m sorry. Try to keep in mind that you’re competing against candidates who are just as qualified as you are, for the one seat, and *someone* has to come out on top. It doesn’t mean employers don’t want you. or that you’re doing anything wrong. You wouldn’t be getting to the final stage if that were the case. Hopefully you get a win soon!

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      The fact that you’re getting interviews is a step up from a lot of folks in your field, considering how many applications most job postings receive and the small number that are shortlisted to be brought in for phone screens, much less interviews. You’re doing pretty well!

  155. A nony cat*

    Does anyone else find it strange that my colleagues and I are *not* supposed to discuss our salary or “conditions of employment” during our annual review? Or do other people have the same policy?

    I was recently reading my company’s annual review policy, and it says that our annual reviews are not the time to discuss salary or other “conditions of employment”, amongst other things (context: there is a list of things the review meeting should discuss, and then a much shorter list of the things it shouldn’t cover). It says that there is a separate procedure to cover these things.

    Does anyone else find this odd? I assume it would still be appropriate to ask “what do I need to do to get a promotion,” but I find being discouraged from asking about pay off putting.

      1. A nony cat*

        No.
        But I’m sure there is a policy document about it somewhere (we have a more is more approach when it comes to policy documents), but no indication of the name or number.

    2. Anonforthis*

      Wait, what? Discuss with each other, or your manager? In any event, at least in the U.S., it’s against the law to tell employees they can’t discuss their salaries and working conditions with each other.

      1. A nony cat*

        Discuss with our manager specifically during our annual review meeting. And it’s not saying it’s forbidden to discuss at all, just that it’s “not appropriate” for our annual review. We have salary scales, so while we may not know anyone’s exact salary, we do have a pretty good idea.

        I’m not worried about the law, it just seems weird. Like let’s say I get a great annual review, then I might want to say, (paraphrasing here) “well, hey, if I’m so awesome, could you make my salary as awesome as I am?” But apparently that’s not what the annual review is intended to do? It seems strange to me.

        1. Jules the First*

          We ask staff not to raise salary or compensation in their annual reviews. This is partly because we want to focus that precious half hour on their achievements, and partly because promotions and salaries are handled by different people than the annual reviews. Basically, I do my annual reviews of my team in January and then feed my boss Jane a summar of the individuals’ performance over the last year. In March, Jane gets a salary pot and a certain number of corporate promotion slots from her boss John. Based on my notes, Jane will propose raises and promotions to John, who will then review that proposal with his fellow execs and say yes or no. I then get a stack of letters from HR setting out what each of my team is getting. Very occasionally, I’ll get asked to input directly (for example, if I’ve recommended two team members for promotions but have only been assigned one promotion slot), but otherwise salaries are out of my hands. Not saying it’s the right call, but it is a way to do it…

          1. A nony cat*

            Ah, interesting. I think we might work a little like that. We have a much flatter organizational structure and a pretty informal hierarchy, but at the same time we can be weirdly bureaucratic on some things (e.g. officially, it’s not my boss but my boss’s boss who is the decision maker for new hires. Grand boss is supposed to “consult” my boss, but that’s it).

            1. Jules the First*

              Ugh. Don’t get me started on hiring…I have to get approval to recruit at a salary bracket from two execs, then once I’ve found someone I want to hire (within that salary bracket!), I have to get approval from my boss (who usually insists on meeting them) and then sign off from the same two execs for this specific human at this specific salary before I can even ask HR to start the new hire paperwork. Sigh. I have lost good candidates because I couldn’t get an offer out the door fast enough.

    3. Annnnnonymous*

      I found out very unpleasantly that we are not a salary-transparent company. After discovering a $50,000 a year disparity between someone who does a different job but is on my “level”, so to speak, I understand why this particular policy is in effect.

  156. Indiana*

    I hate my job, for a ton of reasons. So I’ve started looking for a new one. The one issue is that I go on vacation overseas for two weeks at the end of June. Should I wait until I get back to job search or is now an OK time to start? I’m assuming it takes most places 2-5 weeks to go through the hiring process, so ideally I’d land the job right before I leave and start in July?

    1. Psyche*

      Start now. If they ask when you can start, say July or tell them you can start earlier but would need two weeks off in June.

    2. Havarti*

      It doesn’t hurt to start looking sooner rather than later. Recruiters probably understand summertime = vacations. But would you rather take it easy heading into your vacation and then ramp up the search on your return when you’re feeling refreshed or be sending out resumes and cover letters while packing your bags? I only bring that up because sometimes I try to do a lot of things before going on a trip and sometimes it’s just not possible to finish all the things before leaving. Also, your chances of landing a job before your vacation even if you start searching now may be slimmer than you’re calculating so don’t be discouraged if the job search timeline doesn’t stick to your expectations. Good luck!

    3. KayDay*

      I agree start now…the hiring process is too unpredictable to really plan around anything. I would try to make sure you can access your email daily while you are away, however. You might want to either indicate that email is your preferred method of communication or maybe possibly leave a voicemail greeting saying to email you (although this could be a security issue depending on your living situation).

    4. Autumnheart*

      Now’s an okay time. If you get any promising hits, you can let them know that you’ll be unavailable for those two weeks, but there’s plenty of time to put yourself out there before your trip.

  157. olusatrum*

    I’m having trouble adjusting to my new office’s culture and I’d really appreciate anyone’s advice!!

    My previous office had a solid culture of keeping the mood generally pleasant and light. Not necessarily in a way that felt fake, just that people were generally conscious of the open office and usually kept discussion of heavy or controversial topics brief or took them elsewhere. My new office, however, is much smaller and a younger crowd with a large portion of people in sales, and it’s taking a lot of my energy to navigate the more lax atmosphere. A couple coworkers act like shock-jocks to get a rise out of people and entertain themselves, making sex and drug use weirdly frequent conversation topics. A TV plays all day on either the news or live police shows (like Cops), which opens up an absolute minefield of political and judgmental conversations. Just today, I had to find a way out of conversation disparaging “fatties” without snapping at my coworker that he was being cruel.

    On top of that, I’m REALLY not skilled at censoring myself, so a few accidental comments here and there that were always graciously ignored at my old workplace are becoming a real problem at the new one. I’ve only been here a month and people have already picked up that I’m not straight and that I don’t drink, but I used to. The latter is extra bad because my shock-jocking coworkers are starting to make jokes about my “alcoholism,” which is inaccurate, potentially damaging, and a little hurtful.

    Honestly, I enjoy most part of our casual atmosphere. The move to a smaller business is so far a better fit for my personality in almost every way. But I’m spending A LOT of energy trying to form friendly relationships with my coworkers while dodging conversational bullets. The other day I sort of jokingly said “wow, this conversation [about porn] is…. SO inadvisable” and I got kind of shamed and laughed at for being sensitive. Any ideas on how I can conserve my energy in this environment while still getting along with my coworkers?

    1. merp*

      This is not helpful, but honestly this does not sound like a culture to adjust to… It sounds like the shock-jocks are jerks who make your workplace pretty unpleasant. I don’t really have any advice other than what is frequently recommended around here, the slightly aloof, impersonal, observational tone. “What a weird topic to get into at work” and then redirect if you can.

      1. merp*

        (Or, like, leaving. For anywhere that coworkers won’t “jokes” about alcoholism and other people’s appearances. I know leaving isn’t always feasible, but I felt like it should be thrown out there.)

      2. Lena Clare*

        Came here to say just this^.

        You don’t need to adjust to this atmosphere, it sounds hideous. And the news on *all day* in the background?! Omg. It. Sounds. AWFUL.

    2. Havarti*

      Were there any red flags when you interviewed? Honestly it sounds like the “smaller business = better fit” isn’t worth the energy you’re burning dodging conversational bullets. You can try the “gray rock” approach. You can stoop to their level and become a toxic dumpster fire yourself. Or you can leave. It’s been only one month. I suggest getting out. Find another small business that isn’t toxic because this place is toxic. Leave this disaster off your resume. Unless you can mentally check out and just come in to collect a paycheck, it will wear you out and likely warp your sense of normal the longer you stay.

      1. olusatrum*

        Thanks for the reminder that this will warp my sense of normal, I really needed that. I should mention that I don’t actually work directly with anyone I’m sitting next to. My 2 managers share an office, most of the rest of my department is permanent remote, and I sit next to the help desk and a sort of department-of-one floater. The help desk and the floater are the problem. Everyone else, including the actual sales team, ranges from a bit quirky to perfectly pleasant. My ultimate goal here (explicitly discussed in the interview and onboarding process) is to shift into a more BI/development type role, where I’d have less work interaction with my problem people. It’s a great opportunity to learn hard skills I’ve always wanted, and I really want to try to make it work.

        I think for now I will try to stop worrying about if these people like me, and spend more time with my headphones in. One of my bosses was very excited about bringing me on board, and keeps talking about how excited he is for me to get my feet under me and start helping him with business development stuff. I also think he’d be really personally sympathetic about this. I’m not sure how much I want to push since I’ve only been here a month and space is limited, but I think my problem would be pretty much entirely solved if I could just sit in a different room. I just think I might have to wait because I’m new and with my current duties some higher ups want me to sit next to help desk.

        1. Havarti*

          Ok, if you want to stick it out, try going gray rock and see if this development role materializes or not. Pretend you’re a scientist watching strange aliens. Which unfortunately may require you to get better at self-censoring. If they know they can get under your skin, they probably won’t stop. Hopefully your boss is one of the good guys.

          Maybe wait some number of months that’s acceptable to you and revisit how things are going. Have the people grown bored with you and left you alone? Are you learning the skills you wanted to gain? Is your boss moving you into that role/separate room you want? If the answer is no, don’t let the trap of sunk cost fallacy keep you from escaping. Good luck!

        2. The New Wanderer*

          Your work environment sounds really toxic (a TV set to Cops all day would be a dealbreaker for me, no kidding), but if it’s just two people causing the majority of issues and the benefits of staying outweigh another job search…

          I would float the idea of working in another spot in the office now, with the added information that you haven’t found working near the helpdesk conducive to your duties. Get specific if you need to, I myself would totally call out “jokes” about my “alcoholism” and other unpleasant comments to my manager, especially if it was clear they didn’t want to lose me. It could turn out to be the kind of environment where they expect you to either roll with the punches (“they’re just joking”) or give as good as you get (“show a little spine!”), and then you’ll have to decide if the eventual future is worth putting up with that environment in the meantime.

    3. Rust1783*

      I would react with some surprise and a touch of disapproval every single time I was engaged in a conversation like that. You don’t have to snap at your coworker for making fun of “fatties” – you don’t want to be the schoolteacher – but you can make a face and say, in a surprised/disappointed tone, “I don’t speak about people that way” or “boy, what a cruel thing to say.” Don’t escalate it into an argument but make it very clear that you and your colleague are not on the same page.

      I would also have a conversation with my boss about this. “Hostile work environment” is a rather specific legal term but being subject to constant, ambient conversation about pornography and drug use is absolutely something I would raise with my higher-ups. If your boss is part of the problem, I’d consider cutting my losses and starting a job search.

      Finally, I would give up on trying to form “friendly relationships”. They are your coworkers and you should be professional and do your best to get along with them in a professional context, but they have proven themselves to be garbage people and you are not likely to want to go out for a bite to eat on friday evening with them.

    4. Quandong*

      I wouldn’t characterize the atmosphere at your new workplace as ‘lax’ at all – unless you’re describing the way your coworkers have been allowed to get so out of hand by their boss. It sounds Extremely Unpleasant and as though you will spend an inordinate amount of time documenting harassment and meeting with HR. You should not be subjected to conversations about sex, porn, drug use, politics, fat people, and *your imagined alcoholism* at work. I’m concerned that the company culture is a tremendously bad fit for you and that it will cause a great deal of stress to work there.

      Please consider seeking a workplace where you will be respected and NOT dismissed as being sensitive when shutting down inappropriate conversations. You deserve better than this! It sounds like you are happy with the change to a small business, which is good confirmation of your instincts.

      Don’t fall into the trap where you think there’s something wrong with your reactions to this gross behaviour. You shouldn’t need to expend so much effort to cope with the office environment as this, especially only after one month. In my experience, coworkers at new workplaces have always been courteous, friendly, and considerate as we get to know one another. If this is the best ‘getting to know olusatrum’ conversation your coworkers can muster it’s appalling and I shudder to think of what they will say next.

      1. Quandong*

        Gah!

        I forgot to say: before you commit to staying longer, get a copy of the policies covering harassment, including sexual harassment, and harassment based on sexual orientation.

        I think you should talk to HR about the disturbing and inappropriate comments you have already been subjected to. If the business has no HR, go to the boss you work with most closely.

        Don’t waste your time or effort trying to get along with these gross, disrespectful people. Be civil and keep interactions to the minimum when necessary.

  158. Rust1783*

    My partner has a friend, Chris, who lives in San Francisco and has spent the past few years moving into progressively larger roles doing marketing at various tech companies. Chris recently got a job doing social media for a huge corporation whose name rhymes with BallMart. I believe this is one of the flat-out worst big companies in the US, with terrible labor practices, a long history of gutting small town main streets, etc etc etc. This may be melodramatic but as far as I’m concerned, he may as well be working for the NRA or Liberty University – other controversial organizations that Chris and I AGREE are destructive forces in American society.

    Chris is urban, extremely liberal, gay, and very politically opinionated. I would wager that he has never shopped at this store and he’s certainly never lived in a place that has born the full brunt of its impacts on a community. (He has only ever lived in relatively nice neighborhoods of Los Angeles and SF.) I am shocked that he saw this posting, thought “huh, great opportunity,” and then went through a multi-month process to get the job. It’s not like it happened by happy accident.

    Chris has worked for top-name tech firms. It is VERY had for me to believe that this job is truly the next step in his career. I am baffled. I am not a scolding type but this strikes me as such an unambiguously wrong moral decision, made by someone who, while politically engaged, is rather disconnected from the real-world impacts of what this company does.

    I guess I wonder if anyone else has a perspective on this. I’m not going to confront him or anything but I am not going to go out of my way to congratulate him and I don’t look forward to the prospect of hanging out with him and having to engage in conversation about his work. I am trying to see if I can think differently about it.

    1. blink14*

      I would try to genuinely remind yourself it’s not your business or your life. He may very well have done some research before applying and before taking the job. There’s obviously something about it that appealed to him, maybe he sees it as a career move and just a stepping stone to another company.

      I also wonder if you come from a community that has heavy stock in the organization you’re talking about, and your own experiences are skewing your perspective of your friend getting a job there. I have a rural background, and your comparisons mentioned seem a bit over the top from my own perspective of growing up and living in communities that rely heavily on those types of stores, and often just one of those stores has a monopoly on the area.

      At the end of the day, his life is his business. Maybe he is totally in the dark about the organization, and if that’s the case, he may learn some things on the job that lead him to leave and go elsewhere anyway.

      1. Rust1783*

        He’s not in the dark. I am quite sure that if he were engaged in conversation about this company a year ago, he would indignantly talk about what a horrible place it is, across multiple dimensions. Frankly, I assumed my partner was joking when he told me Chris was applying for this job. I don’t want to go down a rabbit hole but I have enough experience with the tech industry (broadly speaking) to know the degree to which some people abandon their moral convictions when an attractive job offer appears. I have lost respect for a handful of close friends who have gone to work for union-busting, exploitative, or psychologically manipulative companies run by CEOs who are publicly known to be sociopaths.

        I know its not my business but it becomes my business if I have to spend time with him socially and he wants to talk about this. I am not going to bite my tongue.

        1. blink14*

          You’re judging your friend by the organization as a whole, and that’s unfair. You haven’t spoken to him about it, you don’t know what his reasons are. He could be trying to infiltrate the system for all you know, but if you respect him as a person, then give him that respect in trying to hear him out on why he chose it.

          If that answer is unsatisfactory to you, then you may well have to lessen the time spent together or not remain friends.

          For what it’s worth, I worked for a short time at a regional office of a large, conservative religious organization. While I am part of that religion technically, I didn’t take the job because of that, I took it because I needed a job. That organization, particularly at the regional level, was still recovering from a large scandal, and I had some friends who gave me side eye on it. I had no issues, encountered no judgement, and would have stayed on longer if that hadn’t moved to the other side of the metro area. My style is alternative, and at the time I had dyed hair that was an unnatural color. I had no one question my style (which I did keep conservative and office appropriate), ear piercings, or hair color.

          Shortly after, I interviewed with a temp agency, and the person interviewing me was in their mid-20s and male. He was openly judgmental of me, and could hardly believe I had worked at the religious organization.

          Judge as you wish to be judged, or not be judged.

        2. Psyche*

          Can you tell him that you are morally opposed to many of the company’s policies and labor practices and that for the sake of your friendship, you cannot talk about work with him?

    2. LaDeeDa*

      I have a friend who did something similar and when I asked him how he could work for such a company, he said “everyone’s soul has a price.” :/

    3. Havarti*

      You lose nothing by asking “Hey so what prompted you to apply to BallMart?” in a friendly tone over drinks and see what he says. I mean, people do all sorts of confounding things. Nothing is as black and white as we would like it to be. Maybe he did it for a really great reason. Maybe he did it for a reason that only sounds great in his head. Maybe he did it for a very bad reason and you shouldn’t be friends with him anymore. You won’t know until you ask. Also, how does your partner feel about it?

      1. Rust1783*

        My partner is even more of a liberal commie pinko firebrand than Chris is. When he told me Chris had applied for this job I reacted along the lines of my initial comment here, and my partner basically said “well, yeah, but he seems to think this will be a good move for him.” I was quite surprised. In some ways, my sense of concern about this situation is more related to how my partner did such a 180 on the topic than it is about my relationship with Chris.

        1. Havarti*

          Ah, so this isn’t really about Chris so much as it’s about your partner potentially being someone whose political views may not quite align with yours as much as you thought they did? But your partner’s response doesn’t really shed light on his personal feelings about BallMart. After all, he’s not the one who got the job. Your partner can’t change Chris’s mind for him. Maybe he’s decided it’s not worth arguing about so he’s just ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ over it. Sometimes for the sake of your sanity, that’s what you do, rightly or wrongly. Maybe ask your partner about that if you find it unsettling. See what his thoughts are.

          It’s hard when you have friends that do things you don’t quite agree with. Like some people choose to remain friends but avoid talking about the thing. Some view continuing being friends as morally reprehensible and distance themselves. Regarding Chris, you can try pulling a carefree “Oh, let’s not talk about work! How about that [TV show/movie/Broadway musical] though?” and change the subject. Hopefully he has good qualities to counterbalance the whole “selling his soul to the Devil/BallMart” bit.

          1. Rust1783*

            It’s not about our political views not aligning. I know they do, and even if they didn’t, it wouldn’t be an issue. It’s more about appearing to back off from your deeply held views the moment there is even an indirect challenge to them. I think you are right that my partner figures it’s not worth getting into it with Chris, but I was a tad surprised at how uncritically he presented the situation to me in private.

        2. LaDeeDa*

          I was being heavily recruited by a company that rents to own crappy furniture and appliances and electronics and they market to low-income people, charging really high-interest rates. I did not care how much they were paying me I could not morally do it. I tried to be polite to the recruiter, but she kept calling me and emailing me wanted to know why I wasn’t interested, and finally, I said “I cannot work for a company I believe takes advantage of vulnerable people. Please stop contacting me.”

    4. Overeducated*

      I live and work in the DC area and there are quite a number of people I interact with regularly whose work I strongly disagree with on a moral basis (parents of my kid’s friends, spouses of my coworkers, etc). Similarly, one of my good friends’ careers went in a direction I think is morally questionable at best (not just the company, the specific product she works on), and it makes me uncomfortable talking about work with her. I know they have considered these things and come to different conclusions, though. You could ask Chris if you are willing to listen to his own moral calculation about it, but if you feel pretty positive you’re in the right, you probably just want to minimize work talk as much as possible.

    5. MissDisplaced*

      Well… I’m assuming he must have done SOME research into BallMart if it took months to get hired. As he is working with their social media, he would need to be aware of both the positive and negative aspects of working for the company. Perhaps he thinks change can come from within?

      I’m concerned for your friend in that being “urban” and never shopping there or setting foot in a BallMart would make him sound really inauthentic about the company. This retailer is not as predominant in either LA or SF compared to other parts of the country, so he very likely didn’t grow up going there to shop. I’m kind of surprised they hired him to do their social because it doesn’t seem he’d have the best insight into what their customers want? But perhaps he is especially skillful or will handle a more technical component of their social media program and that’s not important. IDK.

      I know your perception of BallMart is not good. But honestly I don’t think most people put them on the same level as say, the NRA because they’re a retailer of many things. My company does have interactions with them, and while I don’t agree with some of their policies, I wouldn’t object to my company doing business with BallMart. Heck, I even shop there sometimes because there is one close to my house and it’s convenient. But I don’t think I’d consider working for them.

      1. That Girl From Quinn's House*

        There’s a good number of BallMarts in East Bay and South Bay, so there’s plenty of opportunity for him to have shopped at one, especially if he hasn’t always lived in SF proper.

        I’ve never lived close to a BallMart and have only been in one a handful of times in my whole life, so I just stay out of this particular debate.

      2. Rust1783*

        I agree that my comparison to the NRA was a bit much but I still put them in the same category. Also, it’s likely he made it to a store during his interview process so I don’t mean to imply he is walking in totally blind. But he is, frankly, a bitchy San Francisco alpha gay, the type of person who would openly joke about BallMart being full of fat poor people (although I don’t remember hearing him comment on BallMart, specifically, in the past.) Many things about this situation are glaringly out of place, which is definitely part of why my reaction may be a bit over the top.

        1. The Gollux (Not a Mere Device)*

          That actually fits together, imho: someone who jokes about BallMart “being full of fat, poor people” msay not be sympathetic to working-class people or those in badly paid jobs, like the workers his new employer exploits. That said, there’s some space between “the type of person who would openly joke about” who shops there, and “a person who I have heard joke about” those things.

        2. LGC*

          With all due respect – you’re making a HUGE and somewhat unfounded assumption about Chris. Namely, that since he’s a flamboyant gay man (or at least, that’s how I’m reading “bitchy San Francisco alpha gay”), he shares your contempt for BallMart. (Also, that because he’s flamboyant and gay, he’s the kind of person to express contempt for the kind of person that likes or needs to shop at BallMart, even though he hasn’t said anything about that subject.)

          Plus, the guy works in tech marketing in San Francisco for prominent companies. I imagine one of those may have a bird as a logo (and a notoriously toxic culture where minorities and women are routinely exposed to targeted abuse and little is done about it). And another might have a color scheme based off of the CEO’s colorblindness (and helped facilitate genocide in South Asia).

    6. NACSACJACK*

      I hope he is aware how anti-gay and religious Ball-Mart is. I have a friend whose brother’s wife works for Ball-Mart in middle/upper management. She had to unfriend my friend because for the good of their career, they cannot be seen associating with GLBT.

      1. Rust1783*

        I mean, I’d be lying if I said this wasn’t a big part of my confusion and concert about his decision, but it’s only part of it.

        1. valentine*

          If I felt the way you do, I’d end the friendship. (I’m assuming you’d feel differently if you thought Chris had fewer choices, but it doesn’t matter.) Do you see continuing a friendship with a Ballmarter, especially one in his role, as giving aid and succor to the enemy? Does the friendship now violate your moral code? You seem to be legislating his morals, yet you’re not going to confront him and I’m not sure what your objective would be. Do you want him to wake up one day and say, “I’ve joined the Dark Side. This ends today”? Do you wish your partner were angry? It makes sense for them to see Chris’s employment decisions as just that. It’s not a 180, unless they vowed never to have personal dealings with Ballmart employees.

          The way you describe him is wild. Does he use gay as a noun?

    7. KX*

      BallMart exploits INSTITUTIONAL problems.
      Chris is an INDIVIDUAL.
      Individuals have to navigate a society that favors institutions above people. It is a difficult world for individuals, and you could even say it is a dangerous world, and it is smart for individuals to gather as many advantages to protect themselves from institutional power as they can.

      BallMart’s success and power stems from institutional changes that destroyed small town main streets and takes advantages of laws that allow them to exploit labor and etc etc. Chris did not create this imbalance of power, and although he is working in a capacity to ostensibly allow BallMart to exploit its institutional advantages further, he–as an individual, with an urban, extremely liberal politically opinionated presence–could be working to undercut those power structures a different way (while protecting himself and his family with money via his career).

      Chris did not cause urban blight. The INSTITUTIONS in the United States did. BallMart is not his fault. Americans are criticized thoroughly when they personally lack financial resources to protect themselves or recover from disaster. He is an INDIVIDUAL taking personality responsibility for his family’s long-term security by taking the best job he can.

      How is that for thinking differently about it?

      1. Rust1783*

        I would just say that there are lots of problems in this world that need to be fixed at an institutional level. That doesn’t absolve an individual from choosing to be an active participant in perpetuating the problem.

      2. Annnnnonymous*

        That’s excellent. My parent company literally makes missiles. My company does not, but we’re still owned by a company that makes missiles. My own company does a ton of business with government agencies – all of them.

        It’s not a reflection on me. If Chris wants to work there, the onus isn’t on you to point out the hypocrisy. He has to deal with that himself.

    8. LCL*

      Reasons Chris would do this? I don’t know him, so I’m just guessing. You should ask him over his 3rd beer. Possible reasons I can think of, given your description of him are: pay is too good to pass up, he wants to get his foot in the door and remake the system, he wants to damage the company because of their past actions, he doesn’t have enough chaos in his life so wants to be a bombthrower while still being employed, he has long range plans to sue the company when he is discriminated against or harassed, or he is gathering material for his blog/sitcom/novel.

    9. Steggy Saurus*

      It could be as simple as just accepting not everyone believes that the personal is political. If you can’t hang out with someone who has taken a perfectly legal position within a legal company, I’d say you represent a large part of the problem with today’s society.

    10. LGC*

      Woof.

      So, like…I think you can congratulate him on getting a prominent opportunity AND also have questions about it. And to be honest, I’d congratulate him on getting the job, even though the retail side has terrible labor practices and development practices – it’s something he personally worked for.

      But also, you don’t have to talk shop with him! I’d treat it like if he had a boyfriend that was kind of a jerk, but not to him (like, the boyfriend yells at servers and never tips). You’re not going to get far by not acknowledging the boyfriend’s existence at all. And chastising him for dating a jerk will probably backfire. But really, he’s grown and can date Scrooge McDuck if he wants, even though he shouldn’t.

    11. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I have a close friend who works with big T, so who am I to judge anyone at this rate. I can see why that would cause you to pause and rethink how you view your friend, I can understand if you decide that friendship isn’t worth it because it shows you something about his moral fiber that you don’t like. It happens.

      I worked in the timber industry and grew up in it, in the spotted owl era. People could say the same thing about me.

      Every single mega corporation is disgusting in my book but people line up around the block and back again to work for Amazon, even though it’s ripped apart the world economy just like the company your friend is working within. That place also gave jobs to some of my family and friends on the store level and it’s allowed them to survive and feed themselves, so it is what it is. Taking such a hard stance against it is more to protect yourself in the end and it will not ever take down these giants, so you have to simply find your peace and either distance yourself and draw that line that “we cannot be friends anymore” or you have to just accept that others make decisions that do not work with your belief structure.

    12. Not A Manager*

      This is Not. Your. Business. Chris isn’t your partner, and Chris isn’t even your own intimate friend. You have no idea what his circumstances and motivations are. If he’s as liberal and thoughtful as you say, then he must have been aware of the nature of this company and why working there could compromise his ethics. He chose to anyway.

      I think your choice is “I won’t socialize with anyone who works there, period,” or “I’m going to treat Chris politely and be socially appropriate for whatever interactions we have.” That includes the general social lubricant of some amount of work talk.

    13. Autumnheart*

      I can speak directly to this, since I work for a competitor of BallMart. If he’s a techie and wants to break into enterprise-level retail or logistics, then BallMart is, well, probably the best place he could possibly work for that experience. Say what you will about their business practices, they are widely recognized as world-class in those areas. And once you work at one Big Retailer, then you are fantastically positioned to work at one of the others (Amazon, Target, Best Buy, wherever–doesn’t have to be in this country, Alibaba’s the biggest online retailer in the world), or pretty much anywhere that wants to scale up to that level.

      So, in short, for his career, yeah, it absolutely is a great move. With a pedigree like that, he could practically write his own ticket.

      A mutual friend of mine went to work for BallMart specifically to get experience in logistics. He stayed for 2-3 years, learned all he could, then moved on to the West Coast to use that experience at an environmental organization. He knew that he was putting a price on his personal morality in order to get the tools that he needed, accepted it, and moved on to a role that aligned with his ethics more closely.

      You don’t have to agree personally with his career choices, but nor do you have to assume that this is permanent, or that Chris doesn’t know what he’s really doing (I assure you he does, especially if he’s moving to Benton for this). And you also might consider whether you would be as critical about this if he went to work for Google, Facebook, Apple or Amazon, all companies who are as bad or worse about their business practices. I’m not defending any of those companies by any stretch (I work for one of the “good ones”, but we have our problems too), but a person has his whole career to consider too.

      Yes, voting with our dollars–and our labor–matters, and we should put a lot of thought into which companies we want to enrich. I totally agree. But on the other hand, if this allows Chris to have a far greater impact in the course of his career than he might otherwise have, is that a worthwhile trade-off? Chris thinks so, and it’s his decision. It doesn’t mean you have to start being a fan of BallMart in order to support Chris, but at the least, you should allow him the benefit of the doubt that he’s making an informed decision, and it doesn’t mean he’s necessarily gone to the dark side.

      1. Autumnheart*

        (When I said “enterprise-level retail”, I actually meant “e-commerce”)

    14. Maya Elena*

      There’s also the perspective that, with a lot of corporations – and big entities – it’s much muddier how much Actual Good and Actual Bad they bring to the table. (Uber here is a favorite example of how complex this can be.) Does lowering prices on a bunch of things for a bunch of people balance out closing all those mom-and-pop-shops and generating crappy jobs? For example, does enough corporate philanthropy expiate a highly visible Corporate Bad? I don’t know. my intuition is no, but the argument is probably nuaned. I’m not a big fan of Ballmart myself, but I remember seeing some show about a city fighting a Walmart in an urban neighborhood that could have really used the jobs (Chicago, I wanna say) and possible suffered from being in a food desert, where no Big Evil Corporations want to go sell their wares… so who was being the evil person in that situation? Maybe if you ask Chris, he’ll have something like that to say.

  159. super anon for this*

    I’ve noticed something come up now and I again in my job that is very annoying and I want to articulate it to see if I’m going crazy or not. I suspect that I’m being held to double standards in my job. Without going into too much detail, I’ve been penalized and held back in my job for making what I consider to be minor mistakes (if you could call it that) in my reports. Basically, I keep being told that while my writing is good, I need to do things more “xyz way” so that my supervisors don’t have to make “so many edits”. (For context, I consider “xyz” to be more subjective/arbitrary rather than the superior way of doing things, but whatever – I do whatever it is I’m told.)

    However, I’ve recently been in a position where I had to peer edit my coworkers’ reports (not usually the norm, but we’ve had some unusual scheduling.) Both reports were noted to be well-written reports, so I was very surprised to see that they both had the same exact “mistakes” that I usually get reprimaded for. It doesn’t seem like my peers got the same criticisms because their reports were approved by their directors before it got to me. (I’m editing these reports not for quality purposes, but to address feedback from the client.) Also, one of these coworkers got promoted, so they are supposed to be exemplary in the job. I’m just very confused, and possibly going crazy!

    1. Emi.*

      It sounds like they have different directors from you — is that correct? To some extent different bosses are going to enforce different styles, which is probably not worth pushing back on if you can adapt your style.

    2. Mockingjay*

      Are these typographical errors, content issues, or editorial preferences? I am guessing the latter. In that case, talk to your boss about what she wants to see consistently to set a ‘tone’ or ‘brand.’ Does your company or department have a style guide? If not, consider putting together a style sheet for consistency and run it by your boss for her agreement.

  160. Conversations I Don't Want to Have*

    I have to have a conversation next week that I’m not looking forward to. It doesn’t have to be a big deal, but – yeah, it could suck. We have a temp Wanda (we hired, not from an agency) filling in a mat leave position, Natasha. When Natasha comes back, we’d like to offer Wanda a full time permanent position, with a slight pay bump. I’ve discussed all this with the grand boss, and he agreed everything a week ago. Three days ago, Wanda came to me and suggested she’d like to work for us when Natasha is back – but from an office in a different state. Now, our group crosses state lines, and we do have a lot of telecommuting going on, and we have an office in the city she named, which is why she mentioned it. Good that she wants me to know in advance of any concrete discussions! I really appreciate her telling me this.

    Thing is, I mentioned that to the grand boss, and he’s a hard No. She’s not at a level where he’d expend the capital he’s got on her behalf, and he would definitely need to tapdance pretty fast to make it work. When we talked, he explicitly stated that for me, he’d make things work, but he couldn’t for her (he’s done something similar for me, so he was explaining how the precedent wouldn’t help here because she’s not a resource we can justify moving).

    I’d honestly thought it was a rather good idea, given the geographic makeup of the team. And I may have sounded enthusiastic when she mentioned it – I really thought he’d think it a decent idea. My boss agreed, she could see benefits to it. But grand boss noped right outta there. So – now I have to call Wanda next week to let her know that we value her, we want to keep her, and we won’t entertain a discussion on her moving. At all.

    I think I’m mostly just annoyed because she’s great, we want to keep her, and this could be a dealbreaker for her (she mentioned how she’s got some life plans and this move would fit so well – I’m not sure whether she’d put FT permanent employment above that plan, or if she’d take her good references and job well done from us and head off to the next big thing). If she’ll consider staying where she is – awesome, I get Natasha AND Wanda, who work well together. If she really feels she has to move, I have to interview for the position, hire a new FT person (we’re not looking for a temp now!), and break the news to Natasha.

    I thought I was pulling together a wonderful plan for the future of my team, and now I’m staring at a conversation I don’t want to have, which will undoubtably disappoint someone I have mentored and appreciate working with. Sigh…welcome to management, I guess.

    1. Rust1783*

      Do you think Wanda would be excited that there may be a job for her at the current location, and can you talk with her about how this would ultimately make her a better fit to work from another location? If she works for you for some period of time as a permanent employee, that would better set her up for success in moving to the other location, I imagine. As of now, getting a job in the other location is simply off the table, and she should at least know that. You’re right that you don’t know all of her mental calculus but you are doing the right thing by giving her more complete information to work from.

      1. Conversations I Don't Want to Have*

        She might – I’m trying to get my grand boss to confirm/decide if other offices might be possible in state instead of out of state (we do have quite a few options in state, so that might work for her plans to). Once I get a decision on that, I will have my conversation with her next week. Exactly as you said, I want to give her all the information I can. If she’s realy set on leaving, I want to know sooner rather than later – to give her planning time to find other work, and to give me time to find our next Wanda.

        1. valentine*

          Option 3: (Possibly after telling Wanda the offer is the current office and finding out if the location is a dealbreaker.) Your boss and you present to grandboss the breakdown of savings and other pros in moving Wanda where she wants to go versus losing her and hiring a new person.

          Option 4: You ask Wanda what it would take for her to stay and give her that.

  161. Non-profit BoD member for all-volunteer non-profit*

    I’m guessing this goes in the Friday rather than Weekend thread even though there’s no money involved. If I’m wrong, please let me know!

    I’ve recently been elected to the Board of Directors for a local non-profit that I’ve volunteered with for quite a few years now. This non-profit is entirely volunteer run. Past volunteer roles I’ve had with them have involved managing a team of 10 people to create a schedule of over 200 speakers for a weekend-long event, so more involved than what people often think of when they think about volunteer roles. The non-profit holds several big events a year and runs some niche-specific charitable funds and awards. (Being on the BoD is also unpaid.)

    Are there any good sites, kind of like AAM, but with advice more focused around being on a Board of Directors or how to wrangle this kind of organization? I feel like no one involved really knows what they’re doing and we could use some better processes to get things accomplished, but I don’t know specifically what those processes are. Mostly, I feel like this thing just sort of gradually grew from something much smaller being done by a group of friends almost a half century ago into the behemoth it is today, and it could use a dose of formality and general clue.

    1. Llellayena*

      Check out my earlier post on Princeton Community Works (or just google that). The website has some resource links for non-profits and if you can hold out until January (and are near or can travel to Princeton, NJ) the conference would be great for you.

      1. Non-profit BoD member for all-volunteer non-profit*

        Sadly, that’s the wrong coast for me. It does sound like a really useful conference, though.

    2. Glomarization, Esq.*

      No lie, Nonprofits for Dummies is a great resource for understanding the business side of charitable organizations.

      Your state government’s bureau/department that deals with nonprofits and charities is also probably a very good resource for making sure that your org maintains compliance with various registration and reporting requirements.

  162. Grace*

    Might be a bit late to get a response, but – https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48139518 was on the front page of BBC News today. “Peer-to-peer rewards: ‘Why I tip my colleagues at work’”

    What does everyone think? The article is pretty balanced but seems to lean towards it not being a great idea, given some of the quotes they’ve chosen to use.

    (Alison, since I know this will go through moderation and you’ll see it – I’d be interested to hear your take! I have a few suspicions about which way the general commentariat will lean…)

    2. Lunavesca*

      My workplace has this. It’s the only bonus system we have. I find it demoralizing more than anything. I am constantly told I’m the/one of the top performers at the company, yet I’m usually at the bottom of the received bonus list. You can clearly see that more money is traded between people who are friends in the office vs those outside that group (there’s a pretty noticeable office clique that comprises about 50% of my small office). I also work with a smaller team and with a manager less likely to give bonuses than the other managers overall. I’m frequently wondering why nothing I do ever seems good enough for praise outside of my yearly review. It’s basically just a popularity contest.

  163. rake policy*

    Hi! I’m trying to get into technical theatre and I’ve seen that some commenters work in that field, so I was looking for some advice. My problem is that I really don’t know where to start. I’m basically looking for some sort of apprenticeship or basic internship, which I’m not even sure I’m qualified for, because I have no experience (I’m a freshman in college and my high school didn’t have a theatre program). The thing is, I can’t figure out how to find this.

    I have a friend who told me that she has a friend working lights and sound at a theater in a city near me (there aren’t any theaters in my immediate area, I’d have to commute ~1 hour), but at some point she asked him about me and then told me that they have a class they’re offering. I don’t know what she said to him, or what the class is, but it sounds like this lead could be a dead end…? Which is unfortunate because it’s… my only lead.

    How can I get started in this field? I’m sure that there’s more I could be doing to start, but I don’t even know what direction to look in. I’d like to learn some practical skills this summer and get some experience, but I just don’t know what to do.

    (Also, don’t know if this is relevant: my college does have a theatre program, but stage tech wasn’t interested in letting me work with them because I have no experience. I was planning on giving it another go next semester regardless of whether I can get anything this summer.)

    1. Four lights*

      Not in this field–but are there any community theatre groups nearby? What about summer children’s theatre? Maybe you could volunteer at these places.

    2. D'Euly*

      It can be a *very* difficult field to make it in professionally. That said, if it’s what you want, go for it! Call the theater your friend was talking about and ask about the class; you wouldn’t need an inside contact for that. Contact community theaters for this summer and offer yourself as a volunteer: no experience, tons of enthusiasm. Do everything, no matter how boring, and be there whenever anyone needs a hand.
      Build up the skills you need outside the theater, and then bring them in. See if there are woodworking/electrical classes offered by a community college/adult ed center near you. Volunteering with Habitat for Humanity was one of the best things I ever did in terms of skills, and got me a carpenter’s apprenticeship after a year of steady work. Go to the workshops offered by your local hardware stores, even! Read books on theater tech, backstage management, costuming, whatever interests you, and don’t sound off about them until you’re able to actually put them into practice. Go back to your college program in the fall with whatever new skills you have. Good luck!

    3. PlatypusOo*

      I started out as a dresser but ended up working as a union stagehand and I’ve learned all my skills on the job-I have been doing this for 20 years now. I realize you are not asking if you should go into this line of work or not so forgive me for being kind of forward here. Would I want my kids to do this job? No way. The sexism racism homophobia and zero boundaries I’ve witnessed and experienced have been outrageous. The only reason I’ve stayed in this profession as long as I have is the flexibility and high wages I make from being in a union, any “normal” person would have bailed on this a long time ago. I feel like I’m too old and somewhat damaged to go into a new career. I don’t know if you are a male or female but working as a female in stagecraft is a rough road and it is crazymaking. If I could go back in time and change my career path I absolutely would. This is my personal experience and I’m sure others wouldn’t agree but most of my workmates would to some degree at least. Best of luck to you.

  164. Ada*

    Woo! Just got out of a phone screening with the literal second place I applied to (out of state, nonetheless)! And! I! NAILED! IT! They’re sending some proposed dates/times for the next interview by the end of the day. Fit seems great so far, so I’m excited! :D

  165. Boberto*

    Would it be wrong to assume that working a contract position for a big university could help me eventually get a permanent position? I haven’t had luck in getting interviewed for a permanent position for my alma mater ever since I graduated from my student-work position 2 years ago. But I recently had an interview for a 3 month contract position, to help the university’s health department for a community project for the summer.

    I got excited about the contract position since my main goal would be to work for the university and/or the university hospital (since they have great benefits) and I thought it’d be a way for me to possibly use the contract position to show my strengths and that I’m familiar with the university policies, etc. Would that be a wrong assumption and that hiring managers don’t care whether I was a prior employee? If so, should I instead focus on full-time, permanent positions somewhere else and later come back for the university job listings once my resume is better? The tuition reimbursement benefit is a big factor in my interest in the university job postings because I haven’t found many companies that offer it. Please note that I’m looking for entry admin/office positions (graduated from college only a few years ago).

    1. Utoh!*

      This is how I got my foot in the door at a university (about 25 years ago). I did not attend the school and was covering for someone on maternity leave (office position). I somehow got a hold of a paper with job listings (in your case, it would probably be an intranet with postings), I applied and was hired. One of my favorite jobs (stayed for 7.5 years). I wish I had used more of the perks back then, I did not even finish my degree until last year but that’s water under the bridge. Try to get out make as many contacts as you can during your tenure while doing a great job and you may get noticed. Good luck!

    2. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      It’s my understanding that temp or temp-to-hire jobs are a great way to get into positions at universities. My husband’s a professor and the non-faculty staff are always encouraging me to do this as a way of changing careers, and say it’s the standard way of hiring at the universities.

      You do get bonus points if your spouse is faculty, but they said that’s how they hire everyone.

    3. Alianora*

      I highly recommend it (I’m also an administrative office worker who graduated from college in 2017). That’s how I got my current job at an R1 university — applied to many full-time jobs here with a pretty low response rate. Then I applied to a temporary 6-month job and after I was able to put that on my resume, the response rate was much higher.

      The temp experience was also really great for me because I could see how the department itself was run, and now that I’m in a permanent position at a different department it’s easier for me to put policies and behaviors into context — is this a University thing, or is it specific to this department?

  166. Saz*

    So, I’m starting a new job Monday and today is my last day.

    I’m in a tech support role, and have permission from my supervisor to let some of the clients I have close relationships know.

    I need help with a subject line, of all things! Ideas?

    1. Four lights*

      It’s my last day too!

      “Last day at X”
      “It’s been a pleasure working with you.”
      “Leaving Job X”

      1. Saz*

        Congrats, I hope!

        And thank you. My brain is fried and I was deeply over thinking this.

    2. fposte*

      Usually when I get these they’re pretty depersonalized subject lines. “Transition information,” “Support personnel update,” that kind of thing.

    3. Alianora*

      I transferred departments last year. As an admin, I worked with a lot of grad students, faculty, and postdocs, so I sent out an email to the mailing list and titled it “A bit of news”.

      I had a hard time coming up with subject lines too; I don’t know if mine was great but I had to say something and I was probably overthinking it. Some people I’ve worked with have used “Leaving [University/Department],” which I’ll probably use in the future.

    4. KayDay*

      Most common that I’ve seen:
      “Update”
      “Person Name” (when coming from someone else)
      “Last day”
      “Thank you”

      1. Existentialista*

        I got two of these recently from internal colleagues.

        One said “Keep In Touch” and included the colleague’s LinkedIn and personal email.

        The other said “Good-bye :-)”. I think that colleague was less sad about leaving….

  167. CupcakeCounter*

    Weird rejection reasons.
    I applied for a position a little over a month ago and got a call from the internal recruiter less than an hour later asking if I have some time to talk about the position. I did and we went through my resume and the position for a little over 30 minutes. We both felt the position and I were a good match so she passed my resume on to the hiring manager and we set up a call for the next week. That went well and I was invited for an in person interview.
    That’s when things got a little weird. They had originally told me the week of April 15 which worked well with my schedule. Then they called and said it would be late the week of April 22 which was even better for me. A day and time was put on the calendar. They called back early the next day and said that HM’s travel plans changed and he wouldn’t be able to interview until April 29 or 30. That’s not a great time for me so I told them I needed Monday afternoon or Tuesday morning. Great they said – works out perfect. Got a confirmation and took the time off.
    Call back…
    Travel plans changed again, HM won’t be in town until after 4pm can I come at 4:30 for the 2-3 hours process.
    Sorry I can’t, can we do Tuesday morning.
    Nope that won’t work because of meetings.

    They literally ended up with a 4 hour window to interview 3-4 candidates . I ended up going in for 2 meetings, going back to work, then going back after hours to meet with HM. Lots of “thanks for being so flexible and coming back” talk.

    I didn’t get the job due to my lack of availability.
    Somehow managed not to bite the persons head off for that level of bullshit.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You dodged a bullet, they’re absurd and expect way too much out of a prospective employee, think about what they want from someone actually on their payroll!! Yikes. Just roll your eyes and think about how that place is a tire-fire factory.

    2. Annnnnonymous*

      So I work for a WILDLY busy set of executives, one of whom happens to be on a hiring spree. His calendar changes at a moment’s notice and sometimes I have a very shifting set of time frames for interviews.

      He is well aware of this, and would never bust down a candidate for “lack of availability” based on his OWN ever-changing calendar.

      Level of bullshit, indeed – I’m getting contact rage for you!

  168. Gaia*

    So I was so sure I was going to relocate and I received an offer today for a job I’d love and now I realize I really don’t want to move and would prefer to do the job from my current town. I know they have a few full time remote workers but I’m pretty sure this is a no go. Ugh. Would have been nice to realize this before I quit my current job (without another job which I don’t regret – current job is a disaster and killing my soul) and went through this whole process.

    Fingers crossed that they loved me enough to go for it!

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Good luck.

      Fair warning, this reminds me a lot of a letter at AAM where the letter writer tried to negotiate a work from home situation, without having brought it up before:

      https://www.askamanager.org/2016/05/did-i-mess-up-the-negotiations-for-my-new-job.html

      So, consider framing this as, “It would be great if…” rather than, “I have to be remote in order to accept this offer” (unless you’re okay with burning this bridge, then go for it, I guess?).

      Also, what changed your mind about being willing to relocate?

  169. Yikes*

    Sorry for spamming this thread, but I have another question: how do you deal with the frustration that comes with a job search? I’m about to graduate from a prestigious university in three weeks and never really had much trouble getting previous internships, so this job search has been kinda demoralizing. I’ve gotten to several final round interviews, but can’t seem to close the deal and it’s getting really frustrating. I know I’m not unemployable by any means, but I’ve been actively looking for about 2-3 months now and have gotten countless rejections. How do I keep myself from getting completely frustrated?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You’re just graduating and have had internships? Do you have any other work history to speak of along with your internships?

      What helps is to remember you’re competing against a lot of others for each role. Each of those roles have people from all experience groups, they could have five years of experience in the industry or have a specialized skillset that you don’t have. Therefore they get chosen over you, who is still relatively green/fresh and would need more work or be classified as more of a “risk”.

      It’s truly not always a “you” thing, you’re great and you’re going to get a job but right now, two to three months of active searching isn’t much. Lots of people go much longer to find a role, there are so many variables involved. You haven’t even graduated yet, that could also be a flag for people who don’t want to hire someone who’s still in school if they need you to start quickly, etc.

      Also remember not to put too much stock in your university being prestigious, there are some businesses where it matters but they’re few and far between

      1. Yikes*

        I was also pretty heavily involved in leadership positions in on-campus organizations throughout my time at college, but transitioned out of those roles midway through senior year so I could dedicate time and energy to my thesis (since I’m planning to go to grad school in 1-2 years). I also have held a few on-campus jobs, but those were mostly just minimum-wage administrative jobs that I held so I could earn some extra spending money. I don’t list those on my resume because they aren’t super relevant to the industry that I’m applying for.

        It is reassuring to know that this is normal and that graduating without a job isn’t necessarily the end of the world. If I’m getting interviews, it definitely means I’m at least on the right track.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          This is partly my grizzled old timer speaking and also my disgust for our society lying to students, they raise you to believe that you will find a job right out of university and that there may be something wrong if you don’t find something immediately post-graduation. That’s not true, it’s never been true unless you’re going into something like healthcare, where they funnel you into the system as a student or if you can luck out by getting an internship somewhere that you then go on to become a full time employee afterwards. That’s the outlier. Normally you graduate and you have to fight for an entry level job somewhere, anywhere to get yourself the “experience” that they want from even the ground level jobs.

          When they say “Degree or equivalent experience” a ton of places will want both, despite the shady advertising they put out there because in theory they will take a look at a freshly minted degree but depending on their organizational needs, they still are hungry for experience that they can draw on and invest less work in training you.

          You’re doing well though since you’re looking early on and you’re on a site that’s dedicated to helping those in the workforce with questions like these. So you have a leg up on a lot of others who will be in your graduating class one way or another. Just don’t lose hope. Ever. Life knocks the crud out of us left and right and rarely does it end in absolute devastation.

          I say that as someone with peers who all graduated during the recession and who only recently started finding jobs, none of which are in their area of study. They are amazing workers and great people but the struggle was real.

    2. Angelinha*

      For what it’s worth, I think it’s very hard to get jobs for after undergrad while you’re still in undergrad, unless you’re going for one of those jobs that actively recruits on college campuses and has a whole slew of recent graduates starting in the same cohort. A lot of my friends found that it was way, way easier to get a job once they actually graduated.

      1. Yikes*

        Yup, can confirm that I’m not going into consulting or finance, so this is probably why.

    3. KayDay*

      Either gin or ice cream. Find the option that works best for you.

      Job searching fresh out of school involves a lot of luck. You need to simultaneously target your applications (i.e. put in a good amount of effort to apply to jobs you have a reasonable shot at) while also casting a much wider net than you would later in your career, and finding that balance is hard. When I was fresh out of school, I had to nearly completely re-write my resume for a lot of jobs, because I was trying to stitch together bits and pieces of my life into something that seemed to show progress towards that particular job. Basically, it sucks, but it sucks for everyone.

      Are you currently working PT or interning? Volunteering? Going to some sort of extra classes (e.g. language)? Even if it slows down your job search a bit, the benefit to your sanity of having something else to focus on can also be valuable.

      1. Yikes*

        I think I’ll probably pick up a part-time job once I graduate and use the extra time to work on my French language skills. I definitely want to get to the point where I’m at least professionally proficient and having the extra time to work on that would definitely be beneficial.

    4. NerdyWordyBirdy*

      I was in this same boat a couple years ago. It was very frustrating. I looked starting the summer before senior year, which is what my school recommended, and it turned out to be a bunch of timing issues plus me not having real-world experience. I had to lower my bar a bit in the end, but it worked out really well for me, because I started out in an entry-level position doing the exact same thing I was doing as a summer job during college, but my degree got me a promotion a few months after I got the entry-level job, and having those few months’ experience in entry-level has made it way easier for me to do my new job, which I’ve been in a year now. You may not find exactly what you want right now, but it sounds like you’re driven, so I don’t see any reason why you wouldn’t be able to move up soon. Either way, you’re not the only one having this issue! You’ll get through it. Best of luck!

    5. The Ginger Ginger*

      Also keep in mind, 2-3 months isn’t that long for a job search, and if you’re making it to later rounds of interviews your materials are probably okay. I know it sucks to feel like you’re not getting anywhere, but you’re doing okay. Just in case, maybe take a look at Alison’s book and guide on interviewing and job hunting to see if there’s anywhere you can shore up your skills or materials.

      1. Yikes*

        Alison’s guide was actually super, super helpful in prepping for phone screens and my later final round interviews. I only had a chance to skim it over, but I’m definitely going to read it more closely before my next major interview.

  170. Mockingbird 2*

    Can anyone share experiences/scripts for how to deal with dress code violations? Especially more subtle things (eg awhile back saw someone wearing a terry cloth dress + sheer stockings and the combo looked very much fit for the club not work). I’ll be moving into a more managerial role soon so I’m sure I will have to handle this at some point!

    1. fposte*

      I think there’s material on this in Alison’s archives, but generally 1) be sure you know what the dress code is yourself and aren’t just exerting weight on preferences 2) articulate in concrete terms what the standard is (and make sure it would apply to people of all sizes), and 3) be matter-of-fact. Like, is terry cloth a problem? It doesn’t seem like clubbing material to me; if anything, it seems too housedressy, so I’m guessing it was the design of this dress. So is the rule that hemlines above fingertip length would require opaque tights? Is it that sleeveless dresses aren’t permitted? Those would be concrete to me. So “Hey, Jane, our dress code doesn’t permit sleeveless dresses. Can you throw a sweater over that one if you have one here, and take this dress out of work rotation in future?”

      1. Rainy*

        Probably French terry, which started out in workout suits and has become a fashion fabric.

      2. Environmental Compliance*

        Also curious. I am definitely picturing someone in a short swim cover with sparkly tights, which would boggle my mind if someone actually went to work in that.

      3. Mockingbird 2*

        Haha probably french terry? It was almost like a sweatshirt. So almost too casual.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Be respectful of the person, pull them to the side and don’t make a scene. Then you tell them “our dress-code is business casual and this outfit is outside the guidelines.” Give them a copy of the dress code and be ready to point out where it says ‘Knee length skirts’ or “no spaghetti straps”

      In this case, it sounds so far out of the norm that there may not be anything you can actually point out and it means you need to have them rework the wording to include this kind of thing, something about material may be helpful? There are a lot of “No t-shirt or t-shirt material” kind of wording in some dress codes I’ve seen. If it’s not spelled out and it’s a gray area, leave it alone and you don’t get to pop them for a violation, that’s on the organization to update their dress-code documentation. You need it to be something you can easily point out in the policy in order to not just come across as a tyrant who’s over policing others and using your judgement instead of what’s in the policy itself, if that makes sense?

      Sometimes people are going to really be right on that line, where it doesn’t say “no you can’t wear leopard print pants” but you’d expect your team to just know that’s not appropriate. This is where some dress codes mention “clubbing attire” or whatever so you could point it out as that. Or TBH it sounds like beach attire to me which is also usually forbidden.

    4. The Ginger Ginger*

      Assuming it’s not an egregious violation, tell them at the end of the day so they’re not worrying about it all day long.

      1. The Ginger Ginger*

        I mean if someone shows up in a swim suit, then send them home to either change or come back tomorrow, but for non-egregious, wait until end of day.

    5. A nony cat*

      Good suggestions from fposte and becky lynch, but at most of the places I’ve worked, we haven’t had a formal written dress code beyond that went much beyond “business casual”, so their scripts wouldn’t necessarily work at my office. If I had to tell someone their clothing was (not egregiously) inappropriate, but w/o hard and fast rules, I would take the approach of: (1) being matter of fact, (2) not making that big a deal out of it (it’s just clothes after all), (3) explaining the business rational as simply and briefly as possible.
      E.G.
      “Hey, I just wanted to give you a quick heads up that while we don’t have a formal written dress code, we are expected to dress appropriately for the situation. Given that we have clients coming into the office sometimes, the outfit you had on today really isn’t appropriate for work in this setting–basically, the material was a bit too “club-wear” for the office. Could you please not wear similar outfits in the future” (and be prepared to specify a bit more if they ask).

    6. Mockingbird 2*

      Thank you all! I’m definitely anxious to avoid comments that could be based on body shape (know wayyyy too many women including myself who’ve dealt with that BS!) and everyone has provided good script/methodical ways to approach this if it does become an issue.

  171. Kendra*

    I get shocked ALL THE TIME at work. ALL THE TIME!!! ON EVERYTHING! On the refrigerator, on the chairs, on the door handles. I get shocked even after I try to ground myself by touching something with my leg first and then use my hand. This is work-related because it only happens at work and sometimes I made a stupid noise. Is there literally anything I can do about this?

    1. Semaj*

      Keep a few dryer sheets in your desk and rub your hands and arms with them? I’ve heard that helps.

    3. Achoo!*

      I’ve had good luck with grounding by touching my whole hand to a wall first. Good luck – I hope your future is much less shocking!

    4. LCL*

      Carry your keys in your hand. Touch the metal with the key first. The spark made will be mostly on the metal and you won’t feel it. Touching something with your leg first isn’t really grounding anything. The locations on the outside of your body will be at basically the same potential. It would be worth asking if others are having this issue, and pinpointing the location where it happens.

      1. Kendra*

        Nobody else. Just me. ALWAYS on the refrigerator. Always my fingers. Everyone thinks I’m crazy

        I haven’t thought of the key thing. I don’t think that’s practical, but maybe a metal bracelet?

        1. valentine*

          Carry some sort of band or strap you can use to pull the doors open and the chairs out. Or a super-thick work glove you use like a pot holder. (Leave an actual pot holder or oven mitt in the kitchen for this.)

      1. bunniferous*

        This. More humidity will help. Heck, try using some hand lotion or something. But yes, dry air really affects this.

      1. fposte*

        Congratulations and/or commiserations, depending on the softness of the landing.

  173. Angry Engineer*

    Venting: I’m an engineer for an IT vendor. I am taking over a project for a coworker at the implementation phase, which is fine. (Typically we are assigned from start to finish but this does occasionally happen for various unrelated-to-the-vent reasons.) There’s another IT vendor involved for the end customer, so I asked the sales rep for the vendor’s contact info to reach out and make sure we are all on the same page prior to installation.

    Sales absolutely does not want me to contact the other vendor, or the customer, at all. Apparently this should never be done and we should know everything from the initial call in order to implement things perfectly. But the initial call is prior to the customer even seeing a quote, so it’s usually a very basic discussion that doesn’t cover everything we’d need. Why would we spend our time and the customer’s time before they’ve even committed to our product? And on top of that, the lag between pre-sales discussions and actual implementation can be months. Things change.

    My mind is blown. I think we all look a lot worse if we’re trying to fix issues/adapt the design on site in front of the customer when we could have avoided it with a 5-min call. That’s just common sense even to the tech-phobic. But apparently I’m forbidden from doing that.

    So I guess, since my manager is out and I don’t think this dumb squabble warrants Director/VP-level intervention, I’m exercising a version of malicious compliance. I will set it up how I guess and sales can pass along the info to the other IT vendor and the customer. Any issues or changes will be addressed during the installation. This site is a clone of another site with this customer, so that gets me 95% of the way there for what I need to know, thankfully. We’ll just have to see if I guess right on the other 5%!

    1. Engineer Girl*

      Since when is sales engineering? How can they tell you how to install something. Frankly I’d tell them I’m contacting the others with them or without them.

      1. Angry Engineer*

        Typically I would just go around sales because it IS ridiculous that they would tell me, or any engineer, how to install anything, but I couldn’t find the contact info. There’s a chance it was buried in some notes for another site, but spending an hour scouring various systems for someone’s email isn’t a good use of my time. I naively thought it would be faster to just ask!

        I did finally “get permission” from sales to contact the customer/IT vendor, but no actual contact info still (!!), so I’ll be talking to my manager when she gets back. I wasted far more time defending a basic request than I would’ve spent actually getting the job done.

        1. Annnnnonymous*

          Does your company not provide you with a detailed SOW before you do your install?

  174. Fey*

    I wanted to show my appreciation for the Friday open work thread and the readers who take the time to share their opinions and experiences. Your responses to my question last week helped me see the light about a job I interviewed at that would have most definitely made me miserable – so thank you all!

    I have a wee little sort of update on that: I didn’t withdraw my application immediately. I decided to conduct a little experiment just to see how the 5-hour second round of interviews would be structured. So I gave them my availability as requested (which would have been today!) and waited. This is what she wrote back with:

    You’re confirmed for your interview on May 3rd beginning 12:30pm.
    May 3, 2019 12:30pm with John L.
    May 3, 2019 1:30pm with Fergus T.
    May 3, 2019 2:30pm with Richard M.
    May 3, 2019 3:30pm with Jane F., via phone/Skype [People Manager/Recruiter based in Europe]

    First guy is the Financial Analyst while the second and third guys are Software Engineers. Two separate hour-long interviews with Software Engineers? So silly!

    I’m a jerk so I decided to send my withdrawal today, one hour before my interview. I shouldn’t have waited till the last minute, I actually feel bad about that. Anyway, she replied quickly, thanking me for letting her know and wishing me luck in my search. :) No drama whatsoever. They probably get a lot of withdrawals, hey?

    I have other job searching news, which I will post in another comment, otherwise this will read like an essay!

    1. Qwerty*

      If I recall correctly, this was for a recruiter job at a finance/trading firm with ~30 people, right? If so, the people you were meeting with make a lot sense for those stats. Most of the positions you would be recruiting for were likely for software engineers, so these are the people you would be working with / recruiting for (along with the finance guy). Software engineers have become hybrids with traders at these firms – odds are one was on the pure software side and the other was on the trading side. Considering how competitive it is to hire good software engineers with experience in the trading industry, I’m not surprised they would want to meet with the person who is supposed to be handling that. Odds are there would only be one or two other people in the HR/recruitment department.

      1. Engineer Girl*

        I agree. How can a recruiter recruit without having good communication with the people you’re working with?

    2. Kat in VA*

      I once did an exhaustive process where it was several phone/Skype interviews, and then a marathon 6 or 7 hour in-office interview situation (I forget – I just know I was exhausted from it).

      I’m an executive assistant. Yes, really.

      I did all of that and their silly assessment tests – which I had to take twice, the second time “proctored” which meant I did it over Skype with someone watching to make sure I didn’t “cheat” (glad you have confidence in me).

      They came in with an insultingly low offer and were shocked when I declined.

      It seems like the application process is getting longer and longer with more and more people taking a crack at you – I can see this for a director or VP position, but for admin? Come on!

  175. Anónima*

    So I’m not sure that this comment will get seen amongst the many other comments but it’s good to get it out anyway!

    What do I do about 2 changes in the team that are stressing me out?

    One is a new member of staff on the team who is really noisy and disruptive, and the other is we’re about to get 2 new members of staff with no extra space so we’re moving from having our own desks to hotdesking.

    With the desk issue I’ve spoken to the current team and said how stressed it’s making me feel plus I have some specialist equipment on my desk which I don’t particularly want other people using nor do I want do have to keep unplugging it and moving around the office every time I’m changing seats. So we’ve all agreed that I’m ok to keep my own desk. I guess I’ve just answered my own question and this is a solution to the problem but I’m still highly anxious about everybody else moving around in the office. How can I calm that anxiety?

    The problem with the new guy is a bit more pervasive. Because he is new he has fewer clients on his case load, but still… he constantly talks! He’s very, very tall and he will get up out of his chair to stand by his desk to talk really loudly to the person who is just behind him.

    He’s sexist. Not in an obvious way but in the insidious he doesn’t even realise he’s doing it way.

    When we run meetings it’s usually myself or two other women who lead the meetings. He will frequently interrupt us in the middle by turning around and talking to other people, then when we redirect him he’ll say “sorry what was that?” so we’ll have to go over it again.

    We once had a discussion about the correct Spanish pronunciation of certain words. He doesn’t speak Spanish. He insisted he was right. AAMers- I’m literally half-Spanish, I’ve lived in Spain, I have family there, I speak it fluently. Wth?! He’s dismissive of me coz I’m a woman I feel.

    Everything is a joke to him. You cannot talk about anything serious.

    So I don’t like him and I find it really hard to do my work with him in the room. Which, is all the time. My boss adores him and think he’s laid back and hilarious and is great for the team, but she worked in a different office so doesn’t see.

    Halp?

    1. Rainy*

      Don’t go over things again when he misses them. Redirect him immediately–let him get out two words max before you call him on it. You are going to have to talk to your boss as well, because he’s disruptive and sexist and she needs to know exactly how that’s affecting everyone who’s actually trying to get their work done.

      1. Anónima*

        Yeah, I’m going to have to speak to my boss aren’t I?! I was just hoping there was some other way of dealing with it without doing that.

    2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Desk issue: I think you’ll not be able to calm the anxiety completely until you’ve seen it in action. Sounds like you’re fretting in anticipation of problems. Maybe give yourself permission not to worry about it until 3 days in, or whatever. Just see how it goes. And then think about what piece of the hot desking you’re concerned about. Is it that you can’t find coworkers when you need to consult with them? Is it that you won’t know who will sit near you on a given day? Are you concerned about Tall Guy being too close?

      Tall Guy: You may need to get the other meeting leaders on board, but a consistent and quiet strategy of NOT catching him up every time he wants to wander away is the only way to stamp out the meeting behavior. “We can’t have side conversations please” and “I’m sorry you missed the information because of your side conversation, but we have limited time. Perhaps someone can catch you up after the meeting. — And keep going from where you were” (And then, you better believe that I, personally would be very unavailable to catch him up…)

      The standing up thing is a “Conversations in our shared and overpopulated space are disruptive. Please use the guest chair and low voices.” Over and over and over.

      Cold puzzled stares at jokes that aren’t appropriate in the context can extinguish some of it. But maybe a parallel campaign to be friendly and jokey during break time can help to keep from feeling like an ass yourself.

      I’m personally on a campaign to slowly extinguish my boss’s constant “I can’t wait until the day to be over” and “work is so terrible” jokes. It is demoralizing and irritating, even though I know he’s trying to be funny. In this case, I’m simply saying “I’ve got some great things to do today!” Just non-sequitur enough to change the mood.

      1. Anónima*

        Thanks, you’re spot on with the anxiety thing. That’s really good advice, I’ll take it :)
        I think with the whole serious/jokey thing it is frustrating because before he joined the team we all got on really well and joked together as well as were able to be serious when needed. Now it feels like the dynamic has changed and I’m always being serious because his jokiness is exhausting and I just can’t anymore.

        1. Introvert girl*

          Next time the pronunciation of a Spanish word comes up and he’s sure he’s right, just start speaking fluently Spanish to him.

          1. valentine*

            Too bad you can’t warn him, “No me busques.” I am thinking if this guy ends up near you, you’ll feel more able to tell him to shut up and sit down, as you won’t have to raise your voice.

            Think of your desk as a lovely island safe space in an oft-changing sea.

  176. Mimmy*

    Networking email troubles!

    I’ve had quite a few instances where I make a promising connection and they invite me to contact them but when I do email them, I get crickets. A lot of these are to people in one particular university. So I’m sure 1) these individuals are super busy and/or 2) the university’s email system blocks my email provider.

    So I have a few questions:
    1. I really want to reach back out to these people, but I don’t know what to say. There’s one person in particular who I really, REALLY wanted to connect with and want to try to contact again, but I don’t remember when I last tried to contact him (I think the email aged off).

    2. If I contact someone by email and don’t hear back, especially if they invite me to contact them, would it be appropriate to send a second email or even call them?

    3. Is it possible that certain email addresses are automatically blocked by certain organizations / companies, etc.? I’m getting to the point where I’m ready to ditch my current email and use my gmail full time. Ugh.

    1. Alianora*

      1. I think you need to have a clear reason to contact them. For instance, a specific question or inviting them to get coffee. Think about the result you’re after.

      2. Maaybe send a second email if you felt like you had a really good connection, but I definitely wouldn’t call them to follow up.

      3. It’s possible.

    2. ZSD*

      I actually think a phone call would be reasonable. You can remind the person where you met, explain that you think the university might block your email, and ask if they’d be willing to meet for coffee sometime.
      Alternatively, you might try connecting with these people on LinkedIn, and then requesting a meeting through InMail.

  177. N.J.*

    Just a vent I guess. Two of my coworkers are nice, helpful etc. and I get along with them but they have each done some ignorant things this week.

    Some of us were talking about the wide range of temperatures that folks are comfortable at and how I like hotter temperatures and am always cold. The one coworker said it’s because of that Mediterranean blood. (I’m half black and half white so…not accurate). I said I’m not Mediterranean, I’m black and white and I thought I had mentioned that before. She said “well where do blacks/the blacks come from?”… I said “…Africa?…” she tried to say something along the lines that black ancestry is from the Mediterranean, basically. Then she just tried to equate it with warm climates in Africa and I said my parent that is black doesn’t like it hot. Mercifully she stopped this line of conversation after that.
    The other coworker used “colored” in casual conversation today and had used it once before around me. She also used the “r” word (derogatory term for people with disabilities) to refer to herself awhile ago, which I did make a passing comment of the sort “You shouldn’t use that term” and the conversation just continued like I never said anything but at least she didn’t repeat the word.

    The kicker for all this is that we work in higher ed, a refuels that often attracts progressive folks who should know better, and we work with a very diverse group of students to provide our services. FFS!! As well, the coworker who used the r-word works with a local disability based non-profit as a volunteer and should really know better.

    1. Alianora*

      Sounds super uncomfortable! I’m sorry you have to deal with that.

      I’m curious, are they native English speakers? Some of the language you mentioned (colored, r-word) reminds me of how I’ve heard some non-native English speakers do a one-to-one translation of some innocuous word in their own language that turns into a slur in English. Since you said the one coworker is nice and friendly other than those word choices, it just made me wonder.

      1. N.J.*

        Yes they are native English speakers. For context both are in their 40s or 50s and white. We live in an area of the US that can be…challenging when it comes to stuff like this, but one of the reasons I got back into higher ed was to get away from the worst of this.

        1. Anonforthis*

          What???? I’m 50 and white, and I don’t use terms like this, ever. Ugh. Where are you located? I’m in the greater Philly/Wilmington area.

    2. annakarina1*

      This person really should have known when to shut her mouth and stop going further with racial stereotypes. I’m sorry she bothered you like that.

    3. Bostonian*

      My office is full of the “progressive folks who should know better” types. For example, they think they’re woke because they liked the movie “The Help” (but I doubt any of them would ever watch Blackkklansman). I’ve never heard anyone say the r-word, though. That’s really upsetting that that person volunteers at a disability based non-profit. Kudos for calling that person out at the time; I usually completely freeze whenever anyone at work says something ignorant. I’m sorry you have to deal with their comments.

      1. N.J.*

        Yeah that’s kind of how I feel. I froze with colored. Maybe because it’s offensiveness stems from its datedness and I just couldn’t compute why she would say that twice around someone she knows is black…

    4. LaDeeDa*

      What the actual F?! We recently fired someone because in one conversation he said to one new grad high-potential employee “Do you get hotter in the summer because you are so dark black?”, then to a woman from India “aren’t you glad you are out of that hell-hole?”, and then “I need to get me a confederate glad before the dems make them illegal.” The guy who said that is late 30s with a master’s degree.
      3 people who heard it came to me, and I took them to the head of HR, and the guy was brought in and fired right then and there.
      When people say things that are wrong/inappropriate I have no issue with telling them– granted I am a leader and much more confident doing that now that I am oldre and in a higher position, so I get why people don’t do it. I wish I had had this kind of confidence earlier in life to stand up for people/issues regardless of my level.
      For someone who said the r-word I would just neutrally say “you may not know, but that word has been deemed as offensive, and we probably shouldn’t use it in that context now.”
      And if people argue about everyone being “politically correct” I tell them “it isn’t about being politically correct, it is about being socially aware that things change.”

      1. N.J.*

        Yes, I agree. I just don’t have the emotional or political capital to correct all this crap or to report it up the chain, though I’m reasonably confident my boss or the one above him would talk to each employee. It’s just…I view some of this shit as microagressions (I might be classifying these wrong, who knows) and I’m tired of being the one to educate folks. I do that in spurts in my personal life and thinking about it is exhausting. It’s fucking everywhere.

      2. N.J.*

        That’s the thing. I don’t want to have to be the one who educated my coworkers about microagressions and acceptable terminology. I’ve tried that in my personal life once or twice related to immigration, Islamophobia etc, and a previous workplace when colleagues and superiors were being homophobic, sexist and discriminatory on a religious basis and had very mixed results. It always ends up with no one listening to me or backing me up in a meaningful way and me being made to feel like the ass for rocking the boat. It’s frustrating and kind of exhausting. Hence the venting here anonymously.

    5. Femme d'Afrique*

      I got the whole “you’re African so you must like/love/be used to the heat” comments All. The. Time. Thing is, I’m from a city where temperatures generally range from the high 50s to mid 70s with no humidity, but nope: Africa = sweltering heat 24/7.

      I couldn’t STAND US East Coast summers and always got incredulous looks. Not sure where this idea that Africa=heat and humidity, but boy did that get old fast. You have my sympathies. That kind of ignorance is really grating.

    6. Maya Elena*

      To be fair, every Russian person I’ve known who likes the cold, or just whenever it’s called, has received a “ah, must be those Siberian genes” type comment.

  178. Ace in the Hole*

    Those of you with government hiring experience… is a second interview usually the same format as a first interview? I.e: panel with rigidly scripted questions.

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      I never hired as gov’t, but when I interviewed to get into gov’t, I usually had a panel-esque first interview, and then the second one was some sort of technical test/one-on-one with the hiring manager, much more flexible and much less rigid.

    2. Brownie*

      Thank goodness, no. I hate having to stick to nothing but the formal interview questions with no deviation for the first interview. The second interview is more of an expand on things and a much more flexible interview. At least for the hiring committees I’m on, interview #2 is the chance to ask what we wanted to ask at the first interview but couldn’t due to Rules, questions like “why are you interested in this position” and “I see you’ve had llama herding experience, have you had experience herding any other animals? Cats perhaps?” Sometimes the second interview is by panel, sometimes it’s the whole team the candidate would be working with, and sometimes it’s only one person, but it’s always far less rigid than interview #1.

      1. Ace in the hole*

        Oh good, that’s a relief! I’ve never before interviewed for a position high-level enough to have multiple rounds… I’m used to the rigid script panel by now but the thought of doing a second round was super intimidating.

  179. Fey*

    So today I had a phone interview for a newly created role of People & Office Manager at a tech company. It went well. The role needs to assist the Finance person with payroll and invoices but it’s mostly HR and office management, things I’m familiar with and am great at. She also mentioned that I could branch out into Talent Acquisition if that’s where my interest lies (it is). Main thing is they seem to encourage progression, which is what my old job* was severely lacking, so that’s a good sign.

    (*Umm, I quit my previous job in April last year without a new job lined up. I don’t regret it but can’t say I recommend it. Your mileage may vary. I was pretty comfortable financially and travelled the first nine months. I know I’m crazy. Didn’t start seriously looking for a new job until February. I have enjoyed being at home a lot but obviously this can’t continue.)

    Quite a few of the questions I asked were met with “That’s a good question!” The interviewer (who would be my boss if I took the job) also paused for several seconds before she answered a particular question. I’d like to think I asked very intelligent questions? *grin* The call was only meant to be 15 mins too, but we spoke for 45.

    She later sent me a follow-up email stating she enjoyed our chat and to send her more questions if I had any more. She also included a “challenge” that “should take no longer than a couple of hours to complete”. I was like wtf a couple of hours?! I opened the questionnaire and yeah, they’re situational questions that would definitely require a couple of hours. Then when I’ve submitted the challenge and assuming my answers make the cut, there will be a 3-hour onsite interview with a still-unnamed person, and then a “culture lunch” with four to five team members across different teams.

    Not the biggest fan of this homework and the 3-hour onsite interview. It all just feels really excessive. But I suppose it’s not a bad thing they’re taking this job very seriously and not just give me simple questions and a super fast interview process (my old job did this) just because it’s “only” the People/OM role that serves mostly the internal employees and has not much to do with the company as a business.

    Actually… I don’t have a question. Just simultaneously hurrah! about this job prospect and bleh! about the tedious interview process. But hey – c’est la vie!

    1. Qwerty*

      How long do you think an onsite interview should be? 3 hrs is so very normal if you are meeting with multiple people. Your main complaint in both posts is the audacity of the length of an onsite interview.

      Practical assignments are best constrained to under an hour, but companies are just starting to realize their assignments are too long. Since it is situational questions it sounds like they just shifted interview questions into a take-home assignment to reduce the amount of time that you have to be in the office and that it probably used to be a full day interview.

    2. Angry Engineer*

      I do think that’s a bit ridiculous. It would be hard for anyone currently employed to find the time for all of that, and your time is just as valuable even if you aren’t currently employed.

      I do understand the “culture lunch” though. At my company we do a second interview over a meal that is more about enticing the candidate to accept the (coming) job offer than a continued vetting of the candidate. We usually have our whole team, an HR rep and our VP (if available) at the lunch and the talk is more about who we are and company benefits/perks. You don’t get to the second interview though unless we’re going to offer you the job or are very very serious about finding you a spot in the company, and you have to really mess up to not get an offer afterwards. Otherwise we just have a phone screen, first (technical) interview and reference checks. We seem to do fine!

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      That seems fine to me. It’s a phone interview, an exercise, an on-site interview, and a lunch with their team. That’s … normal and fine.

      The only excessive part is the length of the assignment, which really is too long. But the rest is reasonable.

  180. StillWaiting*

    How long is too long to wait for a yes or no after a job interview? I’m finding so many varying answers on Google about this.

    I had three very serious and promising interviews with a company, each with more members of the staff. At the end of the final interview, the manager asked me for references and said he would be in touch by Friday/Monday (2-3 days after the interview). He’s been so good about responding through the whole process, but now it’s been almost two weeks since the final interview and I haven’t heard a word from him. I sent a follow up email a week after the final interview, but still nothing. I have confirmed with my references that they never heard from him.

    I know things can come up that delay responses, but it doesn’t make sense that there is suddenly silence. And it seems like too much of a coincidence that after an extensive interview process of regular communication, suddenly after the final interview something major comes up.

    Thoughts?

    1. Qwerty*

      Try calling the recruiter who set up your interviews?

      There’s probably an innocent reason (your emails got caught by the junk folder, the manager got really busy on a project that week, the manager was out sick, etc). I get that its super frustrating! Hopefully switching up how you are contacting them should help you connect. Just keep it cheerful when you ask for an update. Good luck!

      1. StillWaiting*

        Unfortunately, the person who set up the interviews is the same person who is now ghosting me! Maybe if another week goes by, I can try calling but that just seems excessive!

        1. Autumnheart*

          I’d probably move on at this point, and if they get back in touch and you’re still interested in the position, that would be a nice surprise. It’s certainly likely that there might have been unforeseen hiccups in the process (a necessary person being on vacation, or something like that), but if the guy’s been responsive so far and now he isn’t, there’s no reason to think that he magically lost your contact info and is on a desert island with no email. (j/k)

          You had the interview, you followed up, the ball is in their court, and now you should explore other opportunities and not wait for them.

    2. Fey*

      Yeah, this doesn’t sound good. I’d be tempted to think they’ve changed their mind about me but are being childish about letting me know and resorting to ghosting. I guess I’d send another email and then mentally let it go?

      And I don’t know if this is good advice but is there a number you could call, perchance? I’d call.

      I went for an interview where the hiring manager was also really responsive. After I tried to reschedule the second interview, I was told they’d get back to me about the new date by a certain time. When the time came and went with no update, I sent an email and got no reply. He had texted me before (fwiw, I hate using texting as a communication tool during an interview process) so I texted him. I figured, it was the only way to catch him. True enough, he read my text immediately but did not reply. A few hours later he replied to my email – now 10 days old – that the priority of that hire had changed and so they can’t move forward with hiring until some months later.

      Not cool of him to wait that long to let me know. But sadly, it’s proof that a previous track record of responsiveness does not always mean they’ll keep at it. It sucks, really.

    3. fposte*

      When you say “too long to wait,” what is it you’re waiting for?

      If it’s closure, you have to make the decision to move on yourself, and it’s worth trying to do it immediately after every contact. Assume you won’t hear from them again, keep looking for other jobs, and be delighted when you do.

      I’ve been in hiring processes where this timeframe would be nothing, and I think the hiring manager’s timeline was wildly ambitious. I’m not sure I’m counting the days correctly, but if the interview was less than two weeks ago, that means the Monday they were talking about was April 29. It’s too early to consider missing April 29 a problem. But even if I’m counting the days wrong, there are no tea leaves for you to parse here–they might call you Monday, or in two months, or never. The only thing you can control is focusing your life on other things.

      Sorry about the tenterhooks and I hope something good, from this job or elsewhere, turns up.

      1. StillWaiting*

        The initial phone interview was actually March 17. I waited a week for follow up, then had a second video interview the following week. After that, two weeks passed (he told me this would be the case) because he had conferences and would be traveling. He got back to me just when he said he would asking for work samples. Within a day of receiving them, he scheduled the third and final interview, which was last Tuesday. After the interview, I sent my references as requested and responded promptly saying nice things about the interview and that he would “be in contact soon.” At this point, it has been 10 days since the last interview.

        I guess when I ask “how long is too long,” I mean before it’s reasonably safe to write them off as a job opportunity.

        1. fposte*

          Okay, then I had the dates right. They said they’d tell you hopefully last Friday or the beginning of this week. This is way too early to be panicking (or, frankly, contacting them to ask where they are on the process).

          It’s always reasonably safe to write them off as a job opportunity. I think your real question isn’t that, but “How long before I’m sure they’re never calling?” And the answer to that is “Nobody knows,” but in this case it’s way too early. They’re only four days behind schedule so far.

          Keep looking at other possibilities, because you always want to keep looking at other possibilities. But this is nothing in hiring time.

    4. Alianora*

      Since your references never heard from him, I’m leaning towards thinking he had something else come up (work emergency, illness, etc) that’s stopped him from moving forward on this. But yeah, I would call and/or contact someone else at the company, then move on in the job search.

      1. fposte*

        Or they don’t call references, or Still is a second choice and they’re checking the first choice’s references first, or, or, or. But it’s only four days and she’s already done one followup query, so I’d strongly advise against doing another.

        1. Alianora*

          I posted that before I saw her response to you (or your comment for that matter). That does change things — I was thinking this was a more extended timeline based on her original post.

          Anyway, my conjecture about why he hasn’t responded wasn’t really my main point, I was just trying to point out that this isn’t necessarily a bad sign. If they had contacted references after seeming enthusiastic and *then* went silent, it’s less promising.

  181. Somewhat Miffed*

    My job puts me in the position of constantly working on cost reduction projects throughout the company. I get a performance-based bonus each year depending on if I make my goal, and it’s an all-or-nothing bonus. At the beginning of the year, my goals are determined, but this year was different. The other week, I finished a project that turned out so well that it satisfies all of my annual goal by itself. There was no way of predicting it, just sheer luck, but last week my boss called me in his office to discuss my goals.

    He decided it wasn’t fair to have my goal already complete for the year because it’s supposed to be an incentive to do more…so he completely adjusted my goal to almost completely negate that project. Now I’m actually pretty far behind because that project absorbed six weeks of my life.

    Am I off base to think it’s completely unfair to change my goals like that well into the year? I seriously doubt we’d be having the opposite discussion of the project had turned out terribly, but I can’t think of any way to fight it except walk out.

    1. LaDeeDa*

      THAT is BS. There isn’t a problem with adjusting – editing goals because goals and priorities do change. But when it is a financial goal, it shows that you have exceeded expectations, and what he is doing is stacking the deck to make sure you can’t exceed, and maybe not even successfully meets. Additional goals are fine, but only if they agree that anything past X is extra. It isn’t like you are going to stop doing your job for the next 7 months because you met your goals!!
      I have been in performance and talent management for almost 20 years and I have never seen this. I think you need to ask your manager what the motivation is behind it and let him know you want additional goals, but he needs to agree the bonus is based on the original goals that were set and agreed on.
      I would suggest you submit this to Alison, so we can hear her thoughts.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        It was in fact in my queue to answer (submitted a few days ago) and I wish it hadn’t been posted here, per the note at the top of the page…

        1. Somewhat Miffed*

          Yeah, sorry that was my fault. I’ve been going over it in my head and didn’t even read the asterisk. I apologize.

    2. fposte*

      Yeah, I’m with you. If you earn it again are they going to yank it a second time and make you meet it a third time?

    3. Rainy*

      Can you go talk to HR? If your goals were totally changed mid-year, that’s a conversation I’d want to know that HR was looped in on.

    4. Psyche*

      Can you point out that that is actually very dis-incentivizing? He is sending the message that no matter how well you do, you can’t meet your goal because the goal will change accordingly? Why not offer an additional bonus or at the very least, guarantee a part of the bonus? Or trust that you are a professional who won’t slack off?

      1. Missy*

        No really, I do wonder how that happened. How did that happen? Do men not apply?

        1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

          To some extent, yes. I was part of a hiring committee for an admin/coordinator position and out of like 20 applicants only 1 or 2 were male. Culturally we place less value on “female” occupations such as administration, nursing, teaching, etc and men often self-select out.

          1. Missy*

            Uh so should I start doing something else? I make more as an EA than my friends in accounting.

            1. Rainy*

              That’s not even remotely what anyone is saying. If you enjoy your career and make plenty of money, stay at it!

      2. Missy*

        Also maybe! I’m actually a temp and was asked what I wanted my salary to be if I got hired on — I just gave the glassdoor range actually, and the HR rep looked like she was about to have a heart attack. It’s not higher than they pay in this city either.

        1. Kat in VA*

          When I was interviewing last year, the salary range for a seasoned EA in the greater DC metro area was literally $35k to $120k.

  183. NotAPirate*

    Tips for open offices and trouble focusing? Noise cancelling headphones are out of my budget.

    2. Even Steven*

      I just bought a little $40.00 MP3 player online for just this. Came with really comfy wired earbuds, and the player is barely bigger than a pencil eraser. I downloaded some ambient music and ocean sounds (the ultimate white noise) and now have a lovely barrier when I need it. Much cheaper than noise cancelling headphones.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      The consensus for open offices in my company is to use earbuds with either nothing playing or white noise or low-level music of your choice. FWIW, I have noise cancelling headphones and I’ve found that it filters the ambient sound and lets voices through clearly. I need to tune out the voices, not the ambient sound! Playing music really helps though.

    4. Em*

      passive noise cancelling headphones are like 10 bucks (the little silicone ear bud things). They work pretty well when you have some sound going through them.

      1. Em*

        I use a pair I got at Dollar tree for a dollar. Just had to cut off the ear molds (didn’t fit me – careful not to cut the cable) and put a dab of glue into the tube where the cable was coming out of (for strain relief-so the cable doesn’t get pulled out)

  184. Blurred Lines*

    I work in an office of three – a Director, Teapot Representative (me), and Admin Assistant of Teapots. This is a “collaborative office” which I’m learning that I actually dislike. :(

    The admin and I essentially share every task, but I’m in a higher pay grade and title than her. There’s one thing I’ve been the only one doing, Teapot Painting, but now she’s going to take on her first round of Teapot Painting soon and I just feel.. insecure about it? I’m in a “higher” position but I’m not being utilized on more important things or given direct, unshared tasks that aren’t small, unimportant things.

    I’m unsure how or if to bring this up with the boss. They’ve promised me a huge development opportunity next year, so I’ve been hanging around to take advantage of that, but I feel so weird about these linear job duties. Any advice would be appreciated.

  185. softcastle mccormick*

    Update on the coworker who runs a NSFW Twitter and smokes weed on campus during her lunches:

    I scheduled a one-on-one with our grandboss to talk about general issues our team has been facing. Like I said in the original comment, this coworker is very close to our absentee grandboss (our only true supervisor), and all issues with her have to be approached delicately. We met and I discussed her general flakiness (leaving hours early and “working from home” to make up time), the boundaries she regularly crosses in conversations at work (flagrant discussions of graphically sexual subjects), and her sense of entitlement towards knowledge and projects. I didn’t bring up the Twitter directly, despite going through it and finding tweets that directly name her (and show her in photos) as an employee of our company, because I know our boss, and she would have taken it as “too much all at once,” if you know what I mean. She promised to follow up privately with this coworker on the issues I brought up, as well as some other unrelated team issues I made her aware of.

    As of two weeks later, nothing has been done in regard to the problem coworker, but all other issues were immediately addressed. I feared that grandboss wouldn’t confront the much-beloved coworker, but really hoped she would take the multitudinous complaints (from at least 5 other coworkers) seriously. Nothing has changed. If behavior continues I’m going to bypass grandboss and go straight to HR, because she is smoking weed (no medical card) on company property. It’s hard not to feel guilty, or like a snitch, but truly she makes work so unpleasant at times (and has such an erratic schedule), something needs to be done.

    1. The New Wanderer*

      It’s been two weeks. I think you’re in the clear to go to HR now. The employee needs to be fired ASAP, they are a huge liability.

      1. valentine*

        You buried the lede. Had you led with, and possibly limited yourself to, the tweeted, on-campus, public nudity, sex, and drugs, she might have acted immediately. It’s egregious enough to compromise the coworker’s protected status.

  186. the flying piglet*

    I know I’m posting late but desperately hoping for advice. I applied for a job and got to a second interview. They rescheduled the interview and then cancelled it, telling me they had decided to offer the position to another candidate. They wrote that they were extremely impressed and would contact me if another role opens up in the company. Weeks later, I see the job was reposted as of yesterday.

    I’m incredibly confused. My interview was extremely positive. Could someone have given them a bad reference? (If so I would be shocked — I asked my references specifically and they were enthusiastic.) Maybe the person turned the job down — but if so, why wouldn’t they contact me if they were serious about what they said? Am I actually just not right for the job, and they didn’t want to say that?

    Finally, should I contact them and ask if I can reapply, given their positive feedback? I’m confused.

    1. fposte*

      There are all kinds of reasons why this might happen. While I think it’s worth reaching out to them, I’d keep expectations low–it’s likely they would have contacted you already if you were the solution to their problem.

    2. Psyche*

      It is possible that the position was automatically reposted and it is actually a mistake. We recently had a problem with HR reposting a filled position. Like fposte said, it doesn’t hurt to reach out and ask.

    3. LaDeeDa*

      Is it the exact same posting? Or did they add requirements? Sometimes after interviewing they will reevaluate and realize they weren’t looking for just the right thing.
      I wouldn’t reapply but I’d email the recruiter and say you noticed it had been reposted and would like some feedback on why you weren’t still considered a candidate. You might not hear anything but you might get an answer.

    4. Workerbee*

      I’d scrutinize that job position against the original one if you still have it. If it seems identical, then I’d just reach out to the person you were originally in contact with, say you noticed the job had been reposted, and indicate that you were still interested if the position is still open.

      I wouldn’t ask why you weren’t reached out to. That wording of “contact you if another role opens up” could be that they just didn’t see you in that particular role. Either way, you’ll find out based on how they respond this time.

      The fact that they said they were extremely impressed with you sounds like they thought you were a positive fit with the company overall. It’s what I’d say if I wanted to keep a prospective hire in mind, should a different opportunity arise.

      1. Workerbee*

        –Reaching out makes sense even if the job has altered slightly, and perhaps more so, unless it now seems out of your realm of experience/qualifications.

  187. Alex the Alchemist*

    This summer, I’m going to be working at my school’s library (I’m in grad school). I’m not taking any classes or anything, but I’m planning on staying on campus. During the school year, my boss says that when we’re not shelving books/helping people we’re free to do our homework and things of that nature, so long as it doesn’t impact our jobs. My question is, I did this last summer and I found myself getting really bored during my downtime. I’m the kind of person who likes to have something to do at all times, or I start to get down. I have a big list of books that I want to read this summer since I don’t have time to read for fun during the school year, but I was wondering if anyone had any recommendations as to anything else I could do during my work’s downtime?

    1. fposte*

      I think books are probably the perfect thing–they blend into the scenery and don’t obviously scream “Not working!” You can’t really bring in anything that wouldn’t be at home in the library, and your activity should look reasonably serious. If you’re a writer, you could write, as long as it’s SFW.

    2. Oldster*

      This is when I would be going shelf by shelf and making sure everything is shelved properly. A surprising amount of stuff can be out of order.

    3. Alianora*

      I had a similar student job with a ton of downtime where we were actively encouraged to do our own thing at work. I do closed captioning online with Rev, so I would sometimes bring my laptop and headphones to work and caption videos if I didn’t have enough homework to keep me busy. It was a pretty good feeling to be making essentially double pay.

      Of course I wouldn’t have done that without my manager explicitly encouraging us to do whatever SFW, quiet activity we wanted.

  188. Lunavesca*

    My company had a work from home and flex time policy that was recently revoked. All I need to do my job is a computer and an internet connection, so it’s very common to have such policies in my industry, and having a strict 9-5 in-office setup is actually rather unusual. I’ve been at this job for about 10 years; remote work was always at least an occasional option since I started and the full remote anytime / flextime policy started 3 or 4 years ago.

    The previous rule was that we had to work a minimum of 40 hours per week ( which we track with time tracking software), where or when we worked didn’t matter. Now we must all be in the office from 9-5 every day. We were told the change was made to better meet client needs (without specifying exactly what about the previous setup didn’t work) but privately I was told by the company owner that several people had been caught lying on their timesheets, and we have all been brought into the office so we can be watched. These people have not yet been informed of the owner’s knowledge of their transgression. I asked and was told I was not one of these people.

    I initially misread the email that informed us of this change and thought we were still allowed to work from home in special circumstances, with prior approval. I had such a circumstance so I asked for approval and was told by the HR person that no one was allowed to work remotely, at all, for any reason, and that if I could not be in the office during work hours I would be required to take PTO. Her response was delivered not very nicely, shall we say, and left me feeling like I had done something horribly wrong by asking. This is not the first time I’ve gotten that vibe from her. As a result I had to cancel plans that I had made before the no remote policy was enacted.

    Less than a week later, it turns out that one of my coworkers worked from home on a day that she had a meeting near her home. Also, 1/3 of the company’s employees live out-of-state and are thus permanently remote, and we just hired a new remote employee after the policy change was enacted. Other (management-level) employees have been missing from the office with no time off scheduled on the shared calendar where it would normally be, most frequently the HR person, who also tends to show up at 9:30 and leave around 4:15-4:30.

    I’m rather angry about all of this and the coworker that got to work from home when I wasn’t allowed to that very week is especially aggrevating. This coworker is part of management and I am not; the way our company is set up 50% of the employees are some kind on manager. Am I way off base here or is this whole situation kind of sucky and mismanaged? I feel like I’m being punished for something that I didn’t do, and that this “solution” doesn’t actually address the core problem(s) at all. I don’t want to go too far with assuming what’s going on with other people’s schedules when they’re not here, but so far the only people who haven’t done something that could be considered questionable are the few of us that were supposedly cheating on out timesheets, aka the in-office not-managers.

    1. Anonforthis*

      No, you’re not off base. They’re not addressing the real problem, which is that people were falsifying their timesheets. Ugh.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You’re right to be upset! I would escalate and ask your actual manager or even the owner since you seem to be close enough to do so about what’s going on and why you’re seeing others treated differently. It could be that others are going about their business and not running it by others and you made the ‘mistake’ of asking for permission, which then in turn was caught with the “oh no we don’t do that here anymore” nonsense. This kind of thing is exactly why people leave positions and I wouldn’t blame you for looking to leave with the chip it’s going to leave on your shoulder.

      1. Lunavesca*

        The kicker is that the person who worked from home IS my manager*, and was who I initially approached when I asked for a work from home day – I was then redirected to the HR person to be told off, basically.

        * At least, this is the person I see listed in the “manager” field on any official paperwork. In practice, this person is a project manager who manages the projects I work on. I am becoming increasingly convinced that I do not, in fact, have an actual manager in the traditional sense.

        I’m contemplating writing a big email about these (and other) issues to the owner as a last-ditch attempt to force some sort of action before I start actively looking for other jobs. I’m just a bit hung up on what is a valid issue vs what is a petty complaint, because my self-esteem tells me they’re all petty complaints.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      That sucks! Especially as they’re making everyone pay for the transgressions of a few.

      My ExJob also revoked WFH policy because they moved to a brand new downtown office they’d spent a lot of money on and they claimed it was to “foster company culture.” I called bullshit on that one, and walked soon after.

  189. softcastle mccormick*

    Nothing but sympathy. I work in an office that has a couple of Facebook-Wine-Mom types (love y’all, but…), and after a black coworker shared some photos of her family posing on the lawn during Easter, one of the aforementioned types said, “Oh, wow, that reminds me, I saw the funniest picture on Twitter of these gorillas posing with their guards!….No offense, but it reminded me, LOL.” I about fell out of my chair.

    1. softcastle mccormick*

      Oh good lord, supposed to be a reply to the commenter who had someone say something racist about her “european blood.” Apologies.

      1. softcastle mccormick*

        Yep. Reported it to the head of our department and nothing was addressed. Which is really disgusting, considering the majority of our office is POC.

  190. anyone make this work?*

    Can you ever make a job with good pay and amazing benefits, where you can work from home 2-3 days a week, work for you when you’re underutilized and work with people who basically ignore you? I know this may seem like a dream scenario for some but.. it’s really not… I feel a lot like I’m just withering away… starting to put more energy into interests outside of work…

    let me say that people don’t leave and don’t get fired, my evals are all high… but I’m miserable and it’s hard to feel so invisible… I used to try really hard, without thinking, hoping they would change and then end up angry and disappointed that I of course can’t change them… anyone able to make this healthy for themselves? my spouse may be leaving their job soon so I feel like I have many reasons to stay but… it’s not easy and am having trouble making my peace with it. thanks.

    1. fposte*

      If you’re miserable, why not at least look elsewhere? It doesn’t mean you have to leave. And sure, spouse may be leaving their job, but you also may be leaving yours; there’s no automatic hold on either of you.

      1. valentine*

        Looking may tell you if there is something better or if you should put your efforts into letting your job be what it is. It’s fine to have a job just to meet financial and other goals. What if you don’t expect more of it or of your colleagues? If you consider the cons a tax on the pros, are you coming out ahead?

        If you want a job, challenges, and colleagues you enjoy and look forward to, go for it. But there’s nothing wrong with making peace and being content with where you are.

    2. LaDeeDa*

      It doesn’t hurt to look. I have been in that place, and what made it bearable for me is I got the stimulation and collaboration from my professional organization- attending and speaking at professional events, going to professional events in my area. My company was paying me a ton, I was 100% remote, my hours were flexible, 3 months of the year I did what I loved… the rest of the time I hated it. But it fit my purpose for that time, and I found other ways to keep engaged in my industry.

    3. Lepidoptera*

      In that situation, I would likely stay. I would save the high-visibility work for days in office, and then use WFH days to do stretch projects/professional development. Study for a certification, read professional books, learn to code, whatever is relevant to your field.

      That said, I love being alone, and self-guided goal setting would be a dream situation for me.

    4. Catsaber*

      This was my situation about 3 years ago in my former department (I work at a big state university). I loved the benefits, telecommuting, and the pay was pretty good, but I was definitely miserable because of no growth (and no growth in the area I wanted to grow), the upper management was toxic, and our environment was just total stress, always putting out fires.

      What got me through it until I got a new job was to remind myself that this is what I do to pay for the things I love – provide for my family, do fun stuff, etc. I took my time on my job search so I could make sure I got into a really good job. I put myself in the mindset of: this is temporary, and this is just to pay the bills. That helped me see myself as more in control, and not just feel swallowed up with no end in sight.

      Also – it doesn’t matter whose dream situation it is – it’s not YOURS. It’s okay to want different things out of your job, especially in different seasons of life. hope things can get better for you!

  191. Phryne Fisher*

    I saw a former co-worker in the lobby of my office waiting to be interviewed. Former co-worker was a nice guy, but frequently showed up to work hungover and pawned busy work off to me. Would it be out of line if I talked to the hiring manager (who I’m acquainted with) and tell him my experience?

    2. The Ginger Ginger*

      I’d let hiring manager know about it, but be careful to qualify it with the amount of time it’s been since you worked together. For example, if it’s been 6 months, I’d be concerned. But if it’s been 5 years, that’s a lot of time to learn and grow and an employee, so I’d be more willing to potentially take a risk if they interviewed well and had good references.

    3. Blue Eagle*

      You definitely should talk to the hiring manager. A co-worker in another department noticed me interviewing something they had worked with previously and came into my office and told me of experiences with that person. What they shared jibed with what I observed in the interview, so I took it seriously and did not extend an offer to that person.

  192. TimetoGTFO*

    My current job of two years has really impacted my mental health to the point where I sometimes cry during the middle of the day for no solid reason. I’ve finally started therapy but I also realized that I’m just not a good fit for this team and culture. I gave it my best shot and tried to hang in (best pay in town, great benefits), but I know I deserve to not feel angry or unappreciated every day (the leadership has no plans to make things better and won’t fire the individuals making work miserable for people). So today, I applied for a new job and I’m excited to see what happens.

    1. Ssh*

      Good luck! Never stay in a place that is bad for your mental health. I was in the same position as you with what sounds like the same leadership. Best thing ever for my mind was to get out of there.

    2. Lettuce Mutton Tomato*

      I’m feeling pretty much the same way (random tears, feeling angry, feeling unappreciated, feeling frustrated, feeling like I’ve regressed to middle school with the social politics going on) but it took me way too long to realize that it’s affecting my mental and physical health to such extremes. It helps that I have supportive friends who keep reminding me that it’s not normal to feel this way about work and that I deserve better. I’m job searching too, which is a whole other emotional roller coaster but at least it feels like progress. I give you props for recognizing how unhealthy that environment is for you despite all of the supposed perks and taking the steps to get out. Just because something isn’t the right fit for you doesn’t mean you failed (I keep telling myself this too). Best of luck to you in your job search!

  193. Paralegal*

    How do you cope with burnout? I’ve been in school full time for three years to finish my bachelor’s in paralegal studies with a minor in history while also working full time. Thankfully, I took my last exam last night. However, I’m so tired and worn out that I’m in bed by 8:30 pm and asleep not long after. It’s not just physically tired but mentally, too.

    Any suggestions on how to deal with what feels like a severe case of burnout?

    1. Chi chan*

      Sleep as much as you need to. Sleep debt is a thing when you stay up late. Give yourself a reward. Visit or invite a friend over. If there is something fun you want to do but have been putting off because of studies see if you can schedule it soon. A new restaurant or trip to a beach.

  194. Sarah Tulley*

    Hi All,
    This doesn’t pertain to me but to my mom. A little background–my mom has been a teacher for 50+ years, with 49 of those at the same school (a smaller Catholic school). She found out recently that she will not have her contract renewed for next year, and is thus being forced into retirement. She’s in her mid-70s but still sharp, healthy and able to work. I guess I have a couple of things I’m wondering:
    1–Has anyone gone through/had a parent or significant other go through something similar and have any advice on coping once she’s done for the year or later summer when she would typically be going back to school? She seems ok for now, but I’m more worried once it’s all over. This will be a huge life change and I’m a little concerned.
    2– She wants to keep working but other than substitute teaching, do any of you have suggestions of where she could find some part-time work?

    Thanks!

    3. whistle*

      Hi Sarah. My Mom was forced to retire a year early from her job of 40 years due to illness (illness is all better now, but she was an RN and not able to be on her feet for full shifts). I also had the same concerns – that this would hit her really hard, etc. She is a year and a half in to retirement and loving it! I would still have your concerns of course, but I just wanted to share my story to show that maybe it won’t get that bad :)
      I also second the other suggestions of tutoring. I used to tutor through wyzant, and it was great. You set your own rates, subjects, etc. and only take on the clients you want. Many parents would love to hire a tutor with your mom’s credentials.

    5. Aphrodite*

      Is there a college near you with an adult/community education division that focuses on fun classes? Does your mom have hobbies or passions she likes and would enjoy teaching? The college where I work has two types of these classes: noncredit (art, music, English and theatre) and a fee-based division where classes include fitness, cooking, travel, culture, spiritual, and much more.

    6. Lurker*

      Tutoring. Private tutoring or If she doesn’t need the money she should look into doing after school homework help at the Library or a local homeless shelter or transitional housing place. My mom, a former teacher, does homework help at the interfaith housing where we live and she loves it, helping low income kids who without the program probably wouldn’t be doing their homework. She should also contact the local library they are often looking for volunteers to do homework help or to teach adults who have English as a second language to read and write.

    7. Kathenus*

      This depends on whether she wants to work for the interaction and activity, or if she needs a paycheck. If it’s the former, maybe training to be a docent at a local zoo or museum?

  195. ArtK*

    Oh fun. Just got off the phone with my boss where he tried to sell me on an “exciting new project.” It’s a major contract that the company signed, but they don’t have the budget to hire anyone, so we’re expected to pitch in. On top of that, the customer is one of the more repressive regimes in the Middle East. I so want to get out of this place.

    On the more positive side, I’ve got a phone call with an old boss this evening. There’s the possibility of a new job in it. Unfortunately, it’s in an industry that is highly vilified right now (and rightly so.) There are a lot of unethical players even though the core is doing really good things for people.

  196. Paquita*

    Good afternoon.
    I know I am late but I have a question. I am going to resign from my church pianist job. I originally told them I would commit until the end of June. However, because of many reasons I am ready to leave now. Like this Sunday would be it. I know I need to do what is right for me but I feel guilty.
    Thoughts and opinions please.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Do what you feel is right.
      I guess it’s kind of harder given it’s a church and all, but still you need to do what’s best for you.

    2. Havarti*

      Don’t feel guilty! You have to take care of yourself. They can find another pianist. The church will survive one way or another. Just contact whoever you spoke to and say “Hi, I know I originally said I could commit until the end of June but it turns out that won’t be possible. This Sunday will have to be my last day. Thank you for your understanding.”

    3. Falling Diphthong*

      There is a whole section upthread about miserably underpaid church musicians.

      1. Paquita*

        Thanks all! I am actually not underpaid for what I do. That makes it harder to give up the money. But God will provide.

    4. Quandong*

      It’s okay to leave now. They will cope and find another pianist, they will be okay.

    5. bunniferous*

      Depending on your church-is there someone who can take right over? My church plays contemporary Christian so when I needed a break no big deal-but if it is a more traditional church that leans heavily on the piano you may want to at least think about how easy it would be for them to get someone in your place that quickly. If you have people in mind to suggest as a replacement it might help you walk away guilt free. That said, you know your own situation, and the world will not come to an end if you truly need to leave.

      1. Paquita*

        Small church. (A few weeks ago there were 12 people. 5 in the choir, me, and the guy preaching. So 5 in the congregation.) They sing from the hymnbook. No contemporary stuff. The lady that is ‘self appointed’ in charge of the music can play.

  197. Project Overload*

    Anyone have suggestions for a project management program? I’m looking for something web-based and inexpensive, as I’ll likely be the only user. For background, I’m the office manager at a small independent insurance agency. The projects I’m looking to track are not necessarily insurance based, and often I’m the only one working on them. I have weekly 1:1 meetings with the owner, during which I give updates on current projects and – more times than not – additional tasks or new assignments are created. It’d be helpful to have all of these in one area, organized by project/topic – like education, personal lines, office supplies, etc. If I could track steps taken toward completing the project each week, it’d be incredibly helpful. I’m trying to keep a running list in my head and on a weekly to-do sheet, but it’s getting overwhelming and, quite frankly, difficult to remember what exactly I’ve done each week on all of my assignments!

    2. AudreyParker*

      OMG there are sooo many apps out there now that work in all kinds of different ways, it’s making my head explode. You may need to check a few out to see what would really work for both how you work and what you need. Do you need to track duration and task dependencies and assignments with gantt charts or just have a fairly simple spread only you refer to? For something really simple, check out Trello – I decided to play areound with it a little this week & I’ve just started using it for some personal planning. It’s basically like sticking post-it notes on the wall (kanban) with the ability to add comments and check lists. Asana is one widely used and would be more complex, so you might want to check that out as well. And I just heard of one called AirTable that could also fit the bill (also on my list to play around with, but seems highly configurable based on what you need).

      1. Project Overload*

        Thank you for all the suggestions! I like the visual aspect of something with a gnatt chart but since I’m the only one referring to it, basic is really all I need. I’ll be sure to check these out!

  198. Vertigo*

    Hey – how do normal companies handle reconciling expenses? Like, what’s the real process for getting the information on what projects people are charging what things for on their cards? I swear I lay everything out for each person and for half of them it’s like pulling teeth, and my boss is too much of a twit to ever enforce anything. At this point I’m just curious about how it’s supposed to be done (I’m not even actually a trained bookkkeeper, whatever he may tell other people), and how people are actually held accountable for doing it.

    1. AudreyParker*

      I’ve generally worked places that require people either use a system like Concur, where it’s basically on them to code everything if they want to actually get reimbursed for it, or they submit some kind of Excel form with the breakdown + receipts if they want to be reimbursed. Either way, the incentive is that they are responsible for the bill getting paid, and that’s coming out of their own pockets if they can’t be bothered. If they aren’t coding things properly, expenses (therefore reimbursement check) are rejected/delayed until they fix it and theoretically get sick of delays &/or being constantly hassled to fix things eventually… Sounds like you are at a small company, but I’m guessing these days there is some kind of app that works like Concur but is designed for use by smaller teams, so you might want to explore that. If there’s no downside for avoiding the process, it is wayyyyy harder to get anyone on board, for sure!

    2. Need a better name, CPA*

      These suggestions are based on each person having a separate credit card account, not one account with multiple cards. That’s definitely “best practice” for employee accountability and ease in recording expenses properly.

      Don’t pay anything that hasn’t been coded properly. Don’t chase people down: just send the expense report back to be corrected. That puts the onus back on the traveler, if they want their expenses covered.

      Keep a tally of when expense reports are received, when rejected, when received correct, when paid. You want an audit trail showing (a) that any late payments are NOT your fault, and (b) how often reports are submitted incomplete. You may see that the problem isn’t really ubiquitous, but just a few people, which would also be useful information for getting it fixed. You will also have concrete numbers to show management the scope of the issue.

      How good are the instructions for preparing expense reports? Could you improve the instructions?

  199. L. S. Cooper*

    Oops, sorry, double post, but…. Coworker just pulled me aside to comment on the fact that one of the people in our team is retiring, another quit a couple months back, and said he hoped I wasn’t gonna leave. (I’m a contractor, so it’s a reasonable question.) I deflected, but awkwaaaard, considering I’m actively job hunting. This place isn’t bad, the people are nice, and the work isn’t horrible, but it’s not what I want to do with my life, and what I want to do with my life pays waaaay better.
    Ah well.

  200. Not just another consultant*

    My younger brother is graduating college in a few weeks without a job. This is in sure common, but wasn’t the case for me and my immediate friends years ago. What advice would you have for a recent grad job hunting after they graduate (especially if different from when they are a senior).

    Also, in my profession (consulting) GPA on a resume is a must for recent grads. Does that rule hold in other business/office jobs like marketing?

    1. Alianora*

      I graduated in 2017, also without a job. I didn’t ever put my GPA on a resume and no one ever asked about it. I was applying mainly to administrative jobs in various fields (academia, government, industry).

      I’m really glad that I had a couple of short-term jobs and internships after graduating. I think they helped me grow a lot as a professional and it made me better at evaluating workplaces in an interview. I was also able to use the temp jobs as a stepping stone — they helped me fill out my resume and now I have several recent references I can use. Even though I worked all through college, I didn’t work closely with my direct supervisors, so even the good managers wouldn’t have made good references.

      1. Not just another consultant*

        I’ve heard lots of good things about temping on AAM, so I’m planning to suggest that. Glad to hear it worked for you too! Thanks!

    2. WellRed*

      For recent grads in any industry, I’d include the GPA. It’s a data point on a resume that is otherwise a little light.

    3. 1234*

      I was told to only put it if it was above a 3.0. I graduated with a 3.58 so I had it on there for the first few years after graduating.

  201. Help me Rhonda!*

    Help me please!

    I am a young individual that has been on the job hunt for a while looking for a permanent career in the professional field and have had numerous phone/in person interviews for administrative assistant positions. I seem to struggle a little bit with my general overall presence during an interview (which has gotten better thanks to your tips!) but I am still having a hard time gauging how I should behave in an interview. By that I mean – today, at the small indie gaming company I interviewed with, the interviewer cracked open a beer and hung out on a bean bag chair during the entire interview. None of that is an issue for me but it instantly threw me through a loop because it made me feel like I had to be a bro gamer who’s only goal in life was to play video games for a living and not a professional looking for a well-paying, high responsibility job. I have notice this is actually fairly common with modern young companies I’ve interviewed with that have a lax atmosphere and it really makes me wonder if I’m to “uptight” for these companies or if I am just being paranoid. My question is should I maintain the upmost professionalism during an interview, that I’ve been taught to have my entire life even it makes me look like a stiff or should I conform to these lax office atmospheres and be “chill” during the interview? I want to show them I care about the job I’m applying for and that I am qualified professional but I don’t want to look like a boring person that can’t have fun.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Go with the flow, maaaaan. Seriously, go in with your professional face on but if someone cracks open a beer and the mood shifts, you need to be able to be like a duck on the water, roll with it.

      I wish I could give you really good tips because I’m a little [not so little] chameleon, you feed off the other persons energy.

      Especially in administrative assistance, you want to mesh with whomever you’re working with. So if they want you to be buttoned up and proper, you go that way. If they want you to do beer runs for the team on Friday, you do beer runs on Friday.

      Yes, younger geared tech companies still have bro-mentality entrenched in them but you don’t have to be a bro to fit in, just let them bro down on their time and pick up their beer cans behind them when necessary.

    2. AudreyParker*

      This is definitely a common vibe with a lot of gaming and tech companies, especially smaller ones, although this is the first I’ve heard about beer in an interview. You may want to think about how comfortable you are with this in general since you’d be living with it & supporting it all the time if you were hired, and target the larger/more corporate companies if you realize it’s not really your thing. I don’t think you have to come across as a “bro gamer” to fit in, or compromise professionalism, but being too buttoned-up might come across as a mis-match with the culture, especially if your prospective boss is not (& it will also depend on what *they’re* looking for). If you’re an admin there, you’re probably the one who’ll have to buy the beer, organize goofy events, and kind of be a cheerleader at times, moreso than if you worked in insurance or something – is that a role you want to play? There’s absolutely nothing wrong if your answer is a big NO, I just think it’s important to know as you search as it will make a big difference on how happy you are wherever you land. I’ve spent a lot of time in environments like that, so I’m actually more comfortable there, which means I tend to avoid applying to companies that are obviously more buttoned-up – not because I couldn’t do the job, but I think it would wear on me after awhile having to adapt. If you really are cool with that kind of culture and just not sure how to deal with it in an interview situation, I’d say you’re smart in remembering it’s ultimately a professional situation (it’s easy to relax a little too much and forget you’re trying to impress them), so think of it like people describe appropriate interview attire and try to be a step up from the people who are already working there. Ultimately, the more experience you have, the easier it will be, and if you have to work too hard to feel “appropriate” it may just not be the right fit anyway.

  202. Horrifically depressed Master's student seeks advice*

    I’m working on finishing my Master’s thesis over the summer, defending in the fall.

    Thing is, I’ve got a huge problem.

    I had a couple of family deaths a couple years apart, right at the start of July. One of these involved me serving as a caregiver during the relative’s (brief) decline. It was brain cancer that basically deleted this incredibly smart person’s mind. At the same time, I was mulling over two romantic relationships that had gone really, really, really badly. I’d had depression for six and a half years through that point. My uncle helped me do caregiving, and helped me clean out the house and prep it for sale afterward, but he didn’t understand my depression, and was pissed off at me a lot.

    My degree got delayed, and I ended up basically suicidal for two years straight. My advisor’s been understanding of all this, because I’ve still been (somewhat) productive for those two years.

    And things have been turning around a bit. I’ve met a new friend group (after old one ghosted me) at a couple of art workshops I went to this year, and the teacher referred me to a sliding scale therapist, who I’ll start seeing next week. But it’s coming up on the three-year anniversary of the most recent death, and all my dumb bullshit about feeling like a failure and feeling like putting a bullet in my head is coming back. And I really, really wanna be done with my degree already, but the last two summers when this happened, I basically operated at 50% energy or less.

    I don’t know how I’m gonna do this. I just wanna die.

    1. Chi chan*

      Self care. Seriously. Set up a sleep routine. A warm shower or foot massage and a bedtime that gives you 7-8 hours of sleep. Something nice to look forward to everyday. Even if it’s just your favourite chocolate bar.
      Make a list of things that you need to do. Take another look at it and pare it down.
      Make a list of things you want to discuss with the therapist. Fear, anxiety, failure, grief.
      Do not compare yourself with others.

    2. Deb Morgan*

      Please don’t make any big decisions until you talk to your therapist. If you are really struggling and you feel like you can’t make it until your see the therapist, please call a suicide hotline. I wish I had something more to offer you. Sending Jedi hugs across the internet if you want them. I’m proud of you and how much work you’ve done for your degree, for your family, and for yourself.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      You had many griefs/saddnesses dump on you all at once. I’d recommend reading up on grief, all the causes (not just funerals), all the ways grief manifests and all the physical symptoms that come with grief. Knowledge is power.
      (This in addition to what you are doing.)

      Loss is huge. This means lost pets, lost loves, lost parents– almost any loss can impact our health and impact our lives. For the health component you can start to think about what you are eating/drinking. Make sure you hydrate. Lack of water can cause the brain to slow its ability to process. You might benefit from talking to a nutritionist. Maybe you could use a protein drink to increase your energy levels.

      Have a check up with your regular doc, check your heart and thyroid make sure that stress has not depleted them to the point they are adding to your concerns.

      See if some of your friends will hang out with you on or before the anniversary. Do something low key like snacks and bs’ing into the night. Nothing complex, nothing expensive. Personally, I need support before the anniversary date, the actual anniversary day I have pretty much tired myself out and the day itself becomes a lesser issue. Try to estimate where support would help you the best, make your best guess.

      Come back and tell us how it is going for you.

    4. Quandong*

      I’m so sorry you have had such a dreadful few years, and that you’re coming up to another anniversary already.

      While you’re waiting to meet your therapist, please consider contacting a helpline to talk to somebody about your feelings and your suicidal thoughts. If you’re in the USA this may be a good starting point:
      http://suicidehotlines.com/national.html

      You might also consider going to your institution’s student wellbeing centre for an emergency appointment.
      You won’t always feel this way, things can get better.

      Sending internet hugs if you’d like them.

    5. Horrifically depressed Master's student seeks advice*

      Thanks everybody. Will definitely do some of all suggestions. You’re the best.

  203. Thany*

    I know I’m submitting my question super late, but I’m hoping someone will respond.
    I started a new job at the end of March. I selected my benefits (which the benefit package seemed equal to what I received before) in April and realized that the cost of my insurance out of my pocket is substantially higher then it had been at my previous employer (even though the coverage is the same). I didn’t negotiate my salary to higher than what I received at my previous employer (due to confidence issues, etc), and now with the insurance being taken out, I’m realizing that my paycheck is going to be significantly less than I had initially anticipated when I accepted the offer. Is there any way I can discuss this even after I already started working?
    For context, my supervisor is new (started a week before I did) and our HR team of one just went on maternity leave.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It sounds like your new employer has higher rates than your previous one did. Rates depend on your group census, which takes into account all the people who are covered, age, gender and smokers vs non-smokers in most cases. So if you’re with an older workforce now or suddenly more women [screams inside], that’s why your rates went up. Or you aged up this year into a different insurance age band perhaps, that can make insurance a lot more…so you really couldn’t have known that they’d be charging you more regardless because you don’t know how their benefits packages are rated specifically, the data you had from Former Employer is pretty much worthless in that sense :(

      Sadly this is exactly the thing that companies aren’t going to take pity on you for and adjust your payrate this yearly on. You accepted a wage they offered and your bills in that sense are on you :(

  204. Jaid*

    I’ve been learning ASl, because a couple of ladies I ride the bus with to work (same agency, different floors) are hearing impaired. It started with the one lady and I felt bad that no one was talking to her while we were waiting for the bus.

    She taught me some signs and then another lady showed up and she eventually gave me a sheet with the alphabet.

    Eventually I’ll get the hang of F and maybe learn more than the alphabet. :-) But at least I can tell C. that yes, it’s freakin’ hot out without her lipreading it.

    1. RainToday*

      Neat! I’ve always wanted to learn sign language, but don’t know anyone who I could sign to so never had a reason to start. I hope you have fun talking with them. :)

  205. Marion Q*

    A few months ago, I applied to a company. Didn’t hear anything, until around a month ago they emailed me, saying that they apologized but the process is taking longer than they thought, and that they’d inform me of any further decision. Which was nice, since out of all the companies I applied to, this was the only one who bothered to give me any info regarding my application.

    Today I got a rejection letter from them. It’s unfortunate, but I like how communicative the company is and would love to reapply the in the future. I’m thinking of sending a short response, but I’m not sure if I should? I’ve looked around AAM’s archive, but the advice seems to be for people who’ve actually get to the interview stage, which I haven’t. Would it be weird if I reply to their email?

    As for the response, I’m thinking something along the lives of “sorry to hear that, really appreciate the information, hope our paths will cross again in the future”. Is that okay?

    1. RainToday*

      I wouldn’t say it was weird, but I would say it was unnecessary. I’ve never responded to any rejection letters before because there’s no benefit for me and it’s probably something they’ll immediately delete without much thought (but maybe a little annoyance if they get a lot of them).

      It was nice of them to be more communicative than the other jobs by letting you know the process was taking longer than expected, but I don’t think doing something that took minimal effort from them warrants a response on your end.

    2. Kathenus*

      While it’s not necessary, in that it won’t reflect badly on you at all if you don’t do it, I also see no downside and like your script. I’m a hiring manager and I do like initiative (but not gumption!) within reason. To me, someone reaching out like this wouldn’t get them the next job, but would stick in my memory and might get them to the ‘to be considered’ pile for a future position.

  206. Kate H*

    I wish I could throw my company’s VP into the ring for 2019’s Worst Boss. The entire company is unhappy and he’s constantly encouraging middle management to do something about it when he’s the cause of 90% of our problems. This week he sent an email to my boss and grandboss berating them for things he “noticed in ten minutes” that are my responsibility–things that I could’ve explained to him if he’d just asked about them. Instead, he accused us of not caring about the company, not communicating, and not doing everything we can to complete the tasks he sets. Some of these tasks are legitimately impossible asks because there are external factors in play that I have no control over. Clearly if he wants something, we should just wave a magic wand and make it happen.

    2. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      Teaching, as long as you pick a subject area that’s in demand.

      Graduate degrees are a weird beast, where some of them are completely vocational and some of them are more “milestone on the way to a PhD” type things.

  208. Confused*

    Hi all! This is really driving me nuts so I’d love input—

    This company has been in the process of interviewing me for around a month. The first two rounds went really quickly, and the final round was intense. I heard back from them 5 days later that they were excited about my candidacy and we’re changing the job a bit to match my skills, and asked if I would people manage too. We had a great conversation, and two days after that, they asked for references. Three days after that, I got an email not from the hiring manager (a Director) but the Chief officer, asking to talk. We’ve set a time but WHAT is going on??

    1. Buu*

      Seems like they are flexible on who they hire and what the job could end up being. It may be they are hiring to cover workload rather than a set vacancy. I think it’s easy to look at jobs as a set list of duties and skills but often these can be moved between jobs. So it could be you have skills like management they hadn’t thought to hire for and are now thinking about moving duties around a few jobs. But they still want to be diligent and check that’d be a good fit for you.

    2. Boomerang Girl*

      I am actually not sure what is bothering you. Speaking with a c-suite executive is an excellent sign. It means they have a greater interest in you than just the original job description. If your concern is the amount of time it’s taking, 1 month is perfectly normal, especially for manager positions. If you are having to make a decision on another offer, let them know of the timeline to make a decision. Most companies don’t want to lose a key candidate because they were forced to take another job.

  209. Problem Like Maria*

    I’m a manager who cares too much?

    My direct reports aren’t perfect, obviously, and I do know how to give “negative feedback.” But when another manager approaches me with feedback about one of my reports, I internally turn into a Mama Bear. I take criticism about my team much more personally than criticism about myself. My immediate reaction is to think of all the criticism I could give about the other team.

    Has anyone out there experienced and overcome this?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      My hunch is that at some level you see the Mama Bear thing as good — that it plays into a self-image of you protecting your team, standing up for them, etc. But it’s really not a good thing.

      Imagine if your direct reports reacted that way when you gave them feedback about their work. It would be really bad, right? But you’re doing that on an even larger scale. You should *want* feedback about your team, because it will help you manage them better, and help them do their jobs better. And even if the feedback is off-base, it’s important for you to know they’re being perceived that way. If you get defensive, you’ll stop getting that feedback — and at some point those people will go over your head with it, which will make it a much bigger problem for you (and you’ll get a reputation for being difficult to approach — not good for you or your team).

      1. Problem Like Maria*

        Intellectually, I know this. And maybe that is why I’m not perceived as being defensive—on the contrary, I get praise for seeking out feedback and for receiving it. But I absolutely *feel* defensive internally. I don’t want to feel so unhealthy about something that I know is, in fact, very healthy. And I don’t want my internal anxiety to ever get to the point that it does deep out, for exactly the reasons you stated.

        1. Problem Like Maria*

          That said, I’ll repeat your advice next time I’m feeling that way. Reminding myself of the consequences of not getting that feedback is bound to cure some of the demons. I’ve seen other managers in the scenario you described, and yeah—I do NOT want that.

  210. Cheesewaffles*

    Hi, I accepted an internal transfer position about a month ago. The position is brand new and will help out another coworker with his growing workload. I won’t be able to start my position until after we hire my replacement and train them. I knew this going in and know that we have a long training time. The reason for transferring is to learn a new skill, have a better work/life balance and leave a toxic position with a ever growing toxic teammate. Unfortunately no pay increase.

    The frustrating part is that we’re having a hard time finding applicants. Our department had a lady that gave a long notice, like more than 5 months, and her position is still not filled even after she left. Not many bites or good applicants. Any good applicant has turned the position down after the interview. About a month ago they attempted to hire two people, one for her replacement and one that would be for now mine too, but both turned the job down. There have been two more afterwards that have either turned it down or accepted then rescinded right before starting. Now we have another person who interviewed and management decided it would be for a new position, not for the other ladies or mine. Needless to say I’m feeling frustrated because now me being able to start went from months to tbd. My position isn’t even posted yet. All my peers feel defeated with no applicants wanting to accept as the work continues to grow and we become more and more burned out.

    The pay is a big reason for many to not accept. We are a pretty specialized niche in our job market so you would think we would get paid more for our expertise, but we’re on the lower side. Management swears that they’re competitive and they get mad when my peers keep bringing up the low pay. I think we’re on the verge of a mutiny.

    My dilemma is a position at a place I want to work for now has an opening. It will be in a position more suited to my skills as opposed to one I had applied to before and didn’t get. I know the starting pay will be like 5-6 dollar raise and that is around the top of my pay scale now. I have a friend who works there and is willing to give me a reference. Would it be wrong to leave a pending position with no start date in sight that I recently accepted?

    2. Buu*

      Not wrong it’s an internal thing so you’re not leaving them hanging, and since it’s ‘tbd’ it’s not as if you’re disrupting their schedule.

    3. The Other Dawn*

      I say go for it. I don’t think it’s wrong. It seems like there’s no end in sight and you can’t, and shouldn’t have to, wait around forever. This is what happens when employers underpay.

    5. Troutwaxer*

      Definitely apply. If your current boss complains, you explain that the transfer has taken too long, and nobody seems to take it seriously, and it’s time you were someplace with “greater opportunities.”

  211. Nervous around authority*

    I’ve been in the process of interviewing for this entry-level job and I knew the process was rigorous, but didn’t realize to what extent. I’ve essentially interviewed with someone at every (relevant) position up till directors as well as completed a writing assignment. To my surprise, I actually made it to the final interview with the CEO and Founder and I am beyond nervous to say the least. I’m confident in my skills to do well in this job and the company culture seems very supportive and nice, but I’m not confident at all in my interviewing skills. I tend to get flustered and a bit ramble-y, especially with very accomplished people. But I prepared a lot for these interviews and I think I managed to reign in the nervousness, but was also given quite a lot of leeway for some of my inarticulateness. (Imagine me using a lot of “really” in there).

    The CEO and Founders were already very accomplished before they started this company so I’m quite intimidated to say the least. However, everyone I have interviewed with has been beyond nice and these have actually been the best interview experiences I had up to date, so I’m hoping this last round will be fine as well. I also keep going from wtf how are they also having entry-level candidates interview with the CEO to wow they must really care that everyone they hire is competent and likable. Oh well, let’s see.

  212. FuzzFrogs*

    My supervisor is insisting that we have a meeting to “work on my interview skills” sometime soon outside of work. She literally wouldn’t let me say no.

    I don’t know if this is another symptom of how incredibly overbearing she is or if she’s heard something and she’s trying to help me. Her tone was…weird.

    1. PB*

      Interview skills, as in job interviews, or something else? If you needn’t to routinely be interviewed by be media, say, this would make sense and be appropriate. If she’s talking about your job interview skills, it does seem a bit odd and potentially overbearing.

  213. Batgirl*

    I have Mary-janes that clomp. They’re a small cute heel but my teacher neighbour nextdoor to my classroom tells me that I sound like an Ofsted inspector who’s coming to get her.

    1. valentine*

      You: “Something to be nervous about, Llewellen?”

      I can’t tell if you agree. Unless they’re disturbing her students, “clomp” away.

  214. Robbie*

    Coming in late with a quick question:

    I have a friend who’s quite smart, but has an erratic work history. As in, he’s only had one post-college job he’s stuck with for more than 9 months. We’re in tech, but that’s still a bit much. He has a habit of quitting a job without another lined up when something doesn’t go his way — say, he doesn’t get a transfer or raise he wanted. He’s also had multiple job offers pulled in the past, and I get the impression that at least one of those was because he demanded a higher salary after an offer was extended.

    Couple of weeks back, I found out he was applying for a job at my company. I have access to the list even though I’m not in the interview panel for that position, so I texted him asking about it, and we got together to catch up and tell him about this company. When we were grabbing coffee, he mentioned he quit his current job, but wouldn’t explain why.

    This week, he texted me that he has four (!!!) job offers in so he’s withdrawing his candidacy at my company. I’m a bit annoyed with him because I vouched for him. I’m also a bit annoyed with myself because I feel I should’ve anticipated this (hindsight is always 20/20 though). I don’t think I’ll directly address it, but I also doubt I’ll put in a good word for him anywhere else in the future.

    What would you do?

    2. Kathenus*

      Be glad that he withdrew from the process at your company so that you don’t get sucked into the drama you might have if he got the job and then followed his pattern.

      Be cautious about who you vouch for, work-wise, because their performance can reflect on your judgment in recommending them. Alison talks a lot about this, thinking of the difference in a reference from ‘I know them socially but haven’t worked with them’ to ‘I’ve worked with them and they exhibited X strengths and Y weaknesses’ to ‘I’ve worked with them and don’t know if they’d fit into the culture/position due to Z’.

    3. Psyche*

      In this particular case it doesn’t sound like he did anything wrong. He applied for a job and withdrew when other companies moved faster. It happens all the time and I don’t think that you vouching for him harms you in this instance. It doesn’t seem like your company has invested significant time and energy into recruiting him yet. I probably wouldn’t vouch for him at all given his work history though.

    4. Dr. Anonymous*

      Do nothing. Lots of people withdraw their candidacy if they get other offers, so you don’t look bad here. I think you dodged a bullet here, though, if you think he’d be a bad employee, so it’s fine not to vouch for him in the future.

    5. Ro*

      I wouldn’t vouch for him at all and I’m having trouble understanding why you did.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Right – it sounds like he presses for raises and advantages (like transfers) after he’s only worked someplace for a handful of months, and then quits in protest when he doesn’t get that. That’s not the sign of a good worker, no matter how smart he is, and definitely not someone to risk your reputation vouching for.

        In the future, if someone won’t tell you why they left their last job, do not vouch for them.

  215. Chronic PITA*

    I could use some outside opinions on my situation.

    I suffer from chronic pain and last year I moved to a state with legal recreational marijuana. It’s been a gamechanger. I experience pain daily, year round, but it’s particularly bad when it’s wet and/or cold. This past winter is the only one in about ten years that I haven’t spent weeks trapped inside because of the severity of my pain.

    As you can imagine, this has made it difficult to work in a traditional setting and now in my 30s, I’ve never held a non-entry level position or worked anywhere longer than three years.

    I currently WFH but make well under $20K/yr, no benefits, have to pay my own taxes. Money is… tight. I’m job hunting right now and a lot of places here drug test, including all of the temp agencies. I feel like I have to quit using marijuana, but doing so will mean my chronic pain will control my life again and I’m going to end up in the same situation I’ve been in again and again, taking 40+ sick days a year at a place with no sick time and no PTO and praying my boss will be sympathetic.

    I feel really stuck and like I’m just going to be here twiddling my thumbs, scraping by paycheck to paycheck, until I’m finally disabled enough to recieve benefits and then I’ll barely scrape by on those until my QoL drops below what I consider the acceptable threshold and I commit suicide because I’m not willing to continue living once I can no longer do basic tasks for myself like bathing.

    1. Kathenus*

      Can you get a prescription for medical marijuana? If so, some employers may accept that to allow you to use it (off of work) for your medical needs?

      1. Em*

        Once op has the prescription, it’s none of the employer’s business. The drug screen will show as passed/failed, and if you have prescriptions for everything they find and with levels that show you aren’t using more than prescribed, that’s a pass.

    2. Grace Less*

      My state hasn’t legalized marijuana, so this is hypothetical for me, but I don’t think it’s a hopeless situation.

      1. With your income, do you qualify for public healthcare/health insurance? If so, see what other options for relief may be available to you that would be acceptable to employers if you held a prescription.
      2. If there are stores selling it, there are many people buying and earning an income. Where do those people work? Look for names on trucks, on license plates, on shirts, jackets, and hats.
      3. Was there a group that pushed for recreational legalization in your state? Look at the people who were the “face” of the campaign; where do they work?
      3a. There may be a community (online or physical) of people who supported the bill. Connect to those people. Let them know the skills you have and the opportunities you’re hoping to find.
      4. Are your skills applicable to the marijuana industry? Surely those growers and retailers aren’t excluding users from their hiring pool.
      5. Honestly? A lot of places drug test, but definitely not all. I’d look for smaller employers and employers away from manufacturing and construction.

    3. Onyx*

      I wonder if you could find work at a marijuana-related company or dispensary that might be understanding of your situation. Especially at a dispensary, your first-hand understanding of the medicinal benefits would allow you to serve your customers with compassion and expertise.

  216. Steve*

    I email out our schedule every week on top of posting it in the office. An employee is requesting that I do not email them their schedule. Obviously it would be nice of me to honor that request but is there any type of law or regulation that prevents me from forcing the point and emailing them their schedule? It makes sense in this case to make sure they are aware of their schedule because it changes week to week and they are not always working in between the time it is posted and when they work next.

    There are laws that you need to be able to unsubscribe from spam/marketing emails, but can you unsubscribe from work emails?

    1. valentine*

      No to both. This sounds like personal email. While the law doesn’t allow you to harass an employee, you can penalize them for rejecting work emails. But why force it? Note the request, take them at their word, and hold them responsible if they forget, especially if they later blame you for not emailing them. You might ask whether they prefer it go to work email, in a merely curious, no-problem tone. In case of abuse, I’d also check whether their work email is autoforwarding.

      1. Troutwaxer*

        Maybe more generally, two things. First of all, “How do you receive your hours.” Second, “Is there some problem with your email or your situation I need to know about.” Then accept whatever you are told, possibly with a grain of salt.

      2. Ro*

        Even those laws allow for things like legitimate interest. I would just tell them that if they don’t want to see the emails they are welcome to set up their own email rule to manage this.

  217. Ralphston*

    This may be a little OCD but I have an etiquette question. I received a text from my boss an hour after work ends on the last day of the week and being that I’m someone who isn’t constantly checking my phone, I didn’t see the text until the next evening (on the weekend). The text message was very nice, complimenting me, and I wanted to reply and acknowledge it it so I simply said “Thank you _____!” Was it weird or a faux pas that it wasn’t until the next evening on a weekend that I replied? I’m not normally expected to monitor my phone for work messages.

    1. valentine*

      It’s perfectly fine. It would also be fine to respond when you got back to work, or not at all, or only if they asked whether you got it.

      OCD is a serious condition. At least one person who has it has asked that commenters not use it colloquially.

      2. Ralphston*

        Thank you for the words of advice Valentine.

        And I appreciate the point about OCD, and while I didn’t mean to be impolite, if I knew it would have bothered someone I would have chosen to say “I’m someone who can worry excessively at times” instead.

  218. Em*

    A year of unemployment, followed by a year and a half of underemployment, I finally found a company that seems like a great place to work. I’ve been here for a year now. My coworkers go on and on about how it’s such a great place and I won’t say anything out loud to contradict them but, well I disagree.

    Office conversations, when they veer close to “politics” (topics that have nothing to do with politics but are so politicized it may as well be) make it fairly clear that people take the local entertainment of choice (faux noose) very seriously when it comes to their opinions on things. I whitewash myself but I’ve been open enough about where I’m from and where my family is from, but there’s still someone who’s talked about how he’d move to Texas to hunt immigrants if he got cancer. He kind of backpedaled and said “legal” immigrants were fine after I reminded him about me. There have been conversations about how trans people are all perverts, one of the older guys in the office hosted a transfer student who was lesbian and he still took the TV’s or radio’s opinions on the matter as fact over what she told him about herself. In general, words get thrown out that clearly came out of Rupert’s Media/Propaganda Empire (toxic feminism anyone?) and I just don’t feel safe having them know more about me.

    I fit in at least 3 broad categories that these shows have decided are not worthy of basic human decency (counting the immigrant thing, because they tend to forget the distinction between undocumented and having made it through the entire process without losing documentation and because there was a period recently where I didn’t have access to it as I needed to send the only document I have in to get it renewed). Do I just deal? I’ve developed some massive anxiety regarding job searches and I don’t know that I can really go through that right now but this place is clearly for white people only.

    1. Been Around the Block*

      First of all I’m sorry this is happening. How awful!

      Although I’m not a lawyer, from what I understand the things you have described sound like they rise to the level of a “hostile work environment” which is illegal in the US, particularly your last sentence when you say, “…this place is clearly for white people only.”

      I think you should take your concerns to HR, and also start looking around for legal assistance to take this complaint to the EEOC (Equal Employment Opportunities Commission).

      This sort of thing is not supposed to happen in US workplaces, and we have laws prohibiting it.

      1. Troutwaxer*

        I both agree and disagree with you. On one hand, it’s definitely illegal and completely inappropriate and I would normally advise the OP to do exactly what you advised.

        On the other hand, OP’s employment record is not great, and probably the last thing they need is to have a major conflict with their employer. Perhaps now is a good time for the OP to update their resume and start searching. They can leave glassdoor feedback once they’ve got a new job. (And I kind of hate to be giving this advice…)

        1. designbot*

          Agreed. I’d also filter this through a couple of lenses: do you think this is normal for this area? What about for this field? I’d talk to people you know in the industry at other companies and without it becoming a complaint-fest, start to feel them out about how normal this sort of stuff is to them. There’s no point in moving or pushing for major reforms if it’ll be basically like this as long as you stay in this industry, or to a certain extent this area. But if it turns out that there are other options that could get you away from this, I’d use that knowledge to push back harder.

  219. Stalker*

    I’m preparing for my second interview w/ a national non-profit in a couple of weeks. During my first interview, I was given a flowchart of the general structure of divisions/departments along with people’s names and job titles. Out of curiosity (and research!) I looked up the 6 people in the division related to the job. I noticed that 4 out of the 6 people have only been there for a year; one other person only has 2 years. The only other person would be my boss and she’s been there for 4+ years. Is this a red flag? How can I follow-up on this during the interview without seeming creepy or too forward?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I don’t know if I consider this a red flag. Sometimes, several people will independently leave an organization, for different reasons. It’s worth asking about, though.

      Maybe phrase it as, “Could you tell me about the general tenure of folks in this position and in this organization/division?” or “Could you tell me about why there is an opening in this position?”

  220. Cassie*

    For those of you who keep notes at work of requests, decisions, etc – what works best for you? Paper vs electronic? How much detail do you get in to? How long do you keep the notes for?

    I’d like to start keeping (better) notes at work so if someone asks “why did you do this this way?” a year later, I don’t have rack my brain trying to think of the reason. At the same time, I don’t want to keep track of stuff that won’t matter in the long run (but sometimes it’s not easy to know what will be important later or not).

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