open thread – September 27-28, 2019

by Alison Green on September 27, 2019

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Kimmy Schmidt*

    How can I learn to better prioritize my work?

    I’ve been taking on more projects and more responsibility, but I struggle with effectively prioritizing everything. I work on the projects that I’m interested in, while the more mundane tasks go uncompleted for a week, then a month, then three months. This is compounded by the fact that most of my work doesn’t have true deadlines, it’s just a “this isn’t a top priority thing, you’ll work on it whenever you get to it”. But I never seem to get to it and I don’t know how to improve my skills in prioritizing.

    1. Watry*

      I block off so much time for those kinds of tasks. The amount of time changes depending on our workload, what needs doing, etc., but right now I’m devoting about two hours a week to office tasks (filing, shredding, etc.) Keeps stuff from sitting on my desk forever.

    2. nhb*

      Hi Kimmy! What I’ve done is ask my supervisor/boss or whoever is the one giving me the work how to prioritize. Or say “this is how I plan to get all of this done, but let me know if you need me to make any changes”.

    3. ThatGirl*

      Set aside a certain period of time every day or week to work on those things. Like, put it on your calendar if you need to. An hour a day? Couple hours on a Tuesday? Whatever you think works best, but stick to it, and just whittle away at it a little bit at a time.

    4. Norm*

      Google “eisenhower matrix” and find all kinds of videos and articles about one of the best approaches to prioritizing work in general.

      1. Clever Name*

        I was going to suggest this. If you’re not junior level, delegating those tasks that you just don’t want to do is magic. :)

    5. R*

      I tend to do a daily to do list. And if I realize something has been repeatedly on the list without getting done, it goes at the top of the next day’s list and as a result gets done first.

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I ran into an interesting twist on this recently. They say call the big nasty important task an elephant not a frog….because we all understand we have to break up an elephant into smaller parts to be able to eat it.
        Break the big task up into smaller steps. List the action plan. Set time limits for each piece. Be realistic. And don’t let yourself get interrupted on the small pieces.
        Link in a reply so at least part can get into people’s thoughts.
        Now back to my nasty little elephant.

      3. OhNo*

        Same. I also add in some external accountability, because that really helps me when there’s something I just don’t want to do. For me, that just means asking one of my coworkers to ask me about the status of the project at some point randomly throughout the day.

        Something about having to look a person in the face and say, “Actually, I haven’t done it yet” spurs me on more than any personal need or desire to get things done.

    6. Susan K*

      I’m not sure if this directly answers your question, but I use a to-do list app called Todoist to remember/organize everything I have to do. I think this app or something like it could help you because it allows you to organize your tasks in various ways. You can have different categories (color-coded) and also different priorities for each task. You can create tasks and then split them up into sub-tasks. You can schedule each task and then view a list of everything that’s due for the day.

      I use this app a lot to schedule the routine, mundane tasks I have to do, and spread them out over the course of the week. There are things I schedule for every Monday, every Tuesday, etc., the first day of every month, the 15th of every month, etc. I can also schedule individual tasks, so if I have a low-priority project with 4 subtasks, I can schedule one subtask per week.

      2. Atara*

        I use TickTick, which is like Todoist but better (and if you go premium it’s cheaper) as you can add notes and checklists.

    7. LGC*

      What I’ve done is to ask if there’s an ideal time for a turnaround! I’m not exactly the same – my initial response to a higher up asking me something is to DROP EVERYTHING IMMEDIATELY ALL HANDS ON DECK – but a lot of the time people just…don’t think about that.

    8. designbot*

      I try to give myself deadlines for these. Like I believe an email shouldn’t take more than a day to reply to, a quick sketch or rfi no more than 3 days, etc.

    9. Fortitude Jones*

      Can you do your mundane tasks during periods at work when you’re just not feeling it? For example, I usually start my mornings off with simple things like responding to emails and doing boring stuff I don’t have to think too much about and then work on the fun stuff when I’m fully awake and have energy to expend (so basically, during the mid-morning/afternoon).

    10. Artemesia*

      I worked on a list/reinforce system when I struggled with this as I had so many things to do and many of them had no deadlines or distant deadlines or could have been shirked altogether with only a long run negative impact on me i.e. they enhanced my career but were not required by my job — often writing projects.

      Big miserable projects were broken down into small bites and I would require myself to get a couple of pieces done before moving to the items on the list that were less odious to do. Once you have done 6 of 10 pieces of a big ugly project, it is soo0 much easier to get it done in a burst of energy.

      I find it really true that crossing things off a list makes me feel good and so when I am particularly stuck, I make sure I have lots of things that I can easily do so I can cross lots of things off. And making the list is a thing to cross off.

      You can assign a time of day — the hour before break and coffee for example to tackle the most difficult thing to get moving — or you can choose to alternate the easy and the challenging. But the key for me was identifying the specific things that had to be done in manageable steps and getting something, anything done.

    11. That Would be a Good Band Name*

      I have a task that I hate that I was putting off as long as possible (an entire quarter). I added it to my calendar as as a “must-do” for first thing Friday mornings as Fridays are a lighter day for me. I still only report on my findings quarterly, but now the report is built slowly over time so I’m not having to dedicate 1-2 days doing it at one time. It’s made it a lot more manageable. I’d try putting everything that tends to get put off on your calendar and make yourself work on it. Even if you just schedule 30 minutes a week, it will be more than you were working on it and then you can build as you need to from there.

    12. Cinna214*

      Eat the frog! Do the least favorite tasks first thing in the morning- then enjoy the rest of your day feeling accomplished and guilt-free.

      1. Autumnheart*

        I’ve found this to be a good weapon against procrastination. It not only takes care of the task, but it puts me on a more productive roll.

    13. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I schedule and put a deadline on EVERYTHING, even if it’s not something that has a real one. So you should take those mundane tasks and put either say the 5th of the month or Mondays or whatever works with your flow the best.

      Then I have a daily to-do list, so that this stuff doesn’t pile up either.

    14. Kiwiii*

      I figured out at my last job a couple hours x2/week blocked off for the “do eventually” tasks was enough to make sure nothing slipped off the list. And I only needed the time x2 week because it was inevitable that one of those days would have a new, high priority, short deadline task that would erase the organized time anyway. It sounds like you’re prioritizing everything fine, it’s just that you never do the things that aren’t a priority.

    15. Third or Nothing!*

      I like the ideas to set aside a time specifically for the mundane tasks. I’d also add that if you add a positive motivator to the tasks, it can help you want to do them. For example, you might find an interesting podcast or audiobook and only listen to it while you’re filing or archiving emails or whatever. It’s called temptation bundling and can be pretty effective.

    16. WellRed*

      I block off time for what I think of as “housekeeping” tasks. usually Friday afternoons when my focus is on the way out the door (things like updating website).

    17. Ali A*

      Much like others have mentioned, I block time off on my calendar. Anything on my to-do list (which for me, is Trello) gets 30-60 mins on my calendar – no matter how quick/mundane the task – and even if I know it’ll get moved around a bunch.

      I also have time reserved regularly for reoccuring tasks, career development (ie webinars, research). This has really helped my productivity and prioritization.

    18. Liz*

      I struggle with the exact same thing, except NOW I was just promoted so I do have certain tasks and responsibilities that have to be done in a timely fashion. Add to that we went from three to two staff, and its been tough. What I try and do, is make lists, on paper. May sound old fashioned, but i’m VERY visual, so if i see something on the list, it gets done. I also set up a bunch of outlook reminders for monthly and other tasks. and even the other stuff that really has no concrete deadline, I try and schedule as well. I do better with structure, and by trying to schedule everything, even the smallers, piddly things. its kind of helped me, although we’re still early in the whole process.

    19. AyBeeCee*

      I’ve told my boss that I don’t function well for stuff like that so I appreciate it when she imposes a timeline on me. We (my team) have developed general timelines for various tasks so she’s not having to spell it out for every little task, but other times she’ll say she needs out of the ordinary requests done by X date. Sometimes it’s a real date that she needs so she can do something else with it, sometimes it’s probably made up just for the sake of actually getting it done but I don’t know when it’s made up.

    20. zora*

      Someone posted this idea here recently, and I am totally stealing it! I didn’t save the name of the commenter who posted it, though, so thank you to whoever you were.

      Assign each day of the week a ‘category’ of work you have trouble getting to. And then on that day of the week, if you have any downtime, you know exactly what to fill your time with.

      Like Monday is expense reports and budget tracking/updating, Tuesday is updating documentation, Wed is database cleanup, etc.

      Then if I have a super busy day, I might not get to my backup work that week, but at least every couple of weeks I will have some time, and can keep that moving forward a little bit, instead of it falling through the cracks for months.

      1. Kimmy Schmidt*

        I like this suggestion! This could work really well for me because my schedule is never consistent and I often have last-minute things to do, but not always and not consistently.

        Thank you to all who have commented!

    21. Product Person*

      Here’s my suggestion:

      Get an answer for the following question:

      When will this deliverable be needed?
      Even if it’s far away (for example, it’s September and the task is to create a report that will only be needed in January), there should be a date by when the deliverable of your task will be used. Then, subtract a week from that date, and put it on your calendar, ‘Generate report XYZ’. If the tasks is going to take more than an hour, add several entries to your calendar, each with a 30min or 1h slot: ‘Collect data for report XYZ’, ‘Create template for report XYZ’, ‘Enter data in the template’.

      If the answer to the question is “we don’t know”, or “never”, they I’d just ignore the task until it become relevant and has a deadline assigned to it. Do what the folks from Manager Tools say, “delegate to the floor”. No point in completing a task whose deliverable is not going to be used!

      1. JSPA*

        For open ended tasks, where you have to do interim updates, but there’s no outside schedule, you can borrow the terminology from financial reports where there’s an “as of” date and a “postmarked by” date and a “due by” date.

        Say I’m having trouble writing: it helps me cut through the procrastination and tidy up what I have “as of.” Say I can’t decide what data to include: that’s solved by the “as of.”

    22. wittyrepartee*

      Bundle the bad tasks with something you like.
      “I get a yummy snack every time I do ___”

      I also like to keep certain tasks for when I’m tired, especially if I can wear headphones while doing them.

    23. Public Sector Manager*

      I do all my heavy mental work in the morning, and for the more mundane things, it’s the last 2 hours of my day (depending on more important work).

      If other projects have a higher priority, then it seems like a work assignment problem because you don’t have the time to work on the mundane. But if you’re just interested in the other projects more, then you do need to schedule time for the less exciting duties. Eventually, your supervisor or manager will notice.

    24. Hamburke*

      My uncle showed me how he organized himself and I copied it: in a notebook (I used a disc notebook), start a dated to do list – it can be organized however you like – I had a “priority/must do today” section, a “by the end of the week” section and a “long term” section. Take any and all notes in the notebook after your list – phone calls, messages left, meetings, things that you think of but can’t do at the moment, etc – check off things as you go and spend the last 1/2 hour or so of your day synthesizing the notes and making the to do list for the next day. Sometimes things would be be important but not need to be copied so I’d put a Post-It tab on the page.

      I like this method but to keep me in sync with my team, we use an online program called ToDoIst, which is fine but I’m losing my daily notes and it’s organized how my boss likes it, not me. I also find the “today” section to be a jumbled mess that causes me stress – I look at it first thing in the morning, late afternoon and before I leave.

    25. CM*

      I’m not sure this is a prioritization issue so much as a motivation issue. I know I always have an easier time doing tedious tasks that I actually want or need to get done, or tedious tasks that will really help someone else, as opposed to tedious tasks that also seem pointless. If you’re able to think of some reason why it would benefit someone to have these tasks done, it might be easier to convince yourself to work on them. If it honestly doesn’t seem like it benefits anyone, maybe see if you can cancel it.

      If you do think that the tasks benefit someone and you still can’t work up the motivation to do them AND the reason is not that you have anxiety about it or something, then, yeah, I agree with everyone else: you just have to decide that you’re going to make it happen and arbitrarily pick a day when you’ll do it.

      If you have a lot of them building up and they all seem equally un-pressing and uninspiring, you can also use a random number generator or something to just pick one from a list so you don’t have to try to decide which to focus on.

  2. Sunflower*

    Can someone recommend some books/resources similar to What Color is Your Parachute and Do What You Are? I’m looking to make a career change but am a little unsure on what exactly I want to do next. I’m trying to ultimately figure out which careers/jobs will work with my personality, my strengths and exclude as much of the kinds of work I hate doing. But first I need to figure out what those things are and I’m hoping to find something that will help guide me to those answers.

    1. lisalee*

      I have been reading Designing Your Life and I really like it so far. It is more general-life-direction than strictly for your career, but it’s really helpful in figuring out the kinds of things you really like to do and what will make you feel fulfilled. It has a lot of activities you do to hone in on strengths, likes, dislikes, etc.

      2. Belle of the Midwest*

        I’m a career counselor and would add my agreement to this suggestion. The Designing Your Life workbook puts all the activities into an easy-to-use format. I personally did not “get” the life design concept until I got the workbook.

    2. Urban Coyote*

      I did a Strenghts Finder test (through Gallup) and it was enlightening (as was my DISC assessment). It won’t necessarily help with job specifics but it helped me better understand my strength so I can focus on the right position as well as when I do get into a job with undesirable tasks, I can use my strengths to finish them

      Input – Learning – Analytical – Harmony – Connectedness

      2. Melody Pond*

        Seconding StrengthsFinder 2.0! I found it really helpful to understanding myself as a worker, especially in retrospect – why I’ve succeeded or struggled in past roles.

        My talent themes were:
        Maximizer – Analytical – Empathy – Relator – Responsibility

      3. Tedious Cat*

        Input — Woo — Communication — Positivity — Empathy

        StrengthsFinder helped me see the benefit of the particular strengths I can bring to the table (6 of my top 12 are Relationship Building) instead of knocking myself for not being the more stereotypical hard-nosed super-assertive worker. It’s such a relief to embrace what you do well instead of beating yourself up over the stuff you don’t have a knack for (and when I say you I mean me).

      4. Filosofickle*

        Strategic
        Context
        Intellection
        Individualization
        Input

        Mine made me a little sad — apparently I’m just a strategy/analysis machine! Which…is totally fair. But I would have liked something with a more human dimension. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

        2. Emilia Bedelia*

          What are your top 10, though?
          Those next 5 are also very important! Even though these might be your “signature themes”, the next 5 impact how you use those strengths.

          My top 5 are Learner, Responsibility, Analytical, Input, and Achiever, which make me sound like a Type A goody two shoes know it all (…not disputing that). But #6 for me is Harmony, and I think number 9 or something is Relator. So, even though I care about getting things done and being right, I am also good at working with people individually and making sure that we’re all on the same page.

          1. Autumnheart*

            My 6-10 were Responsibility, Ideation, Futuristic, Activator and Maximizer. Still totally a strategy machine, which I embrace! I’d love to get into a more strategic line of work, really.

            1. Filosofickle*

              Ooh, you have Futurist and Activator! Activation should make you an especially good strategist. I get a little stuck in the frameworks and theory and don’t tend to care much what happens next.

              My title is literally Strategy Consultant so at least I’ve got that covered ;)

              I can’t find what mine are beyond top 5. My documentation only includes those. I’ll see if I can dig anything else up…it has been a bunch of years, though.

          1. Filosofickle*

            Me too!

            I used to be more of an INTP but it’s shifted over time; I have cultivated a practice of acting on feeling/empathy over my natural thinking instincts. It’s still a bit inconsistent (I’m close to the center on all 4 variables) but INFP is the most common.

        4. Tedious Cat*

          YMMV, but I really believe just because something’s further down on your list doesn’t necessarily mean you’re bad at it; it may just be that it’s not expressed as strongly compared to other traits.

          1. Filosofickle*

            Agreed! I have very strong skills in the more relationship / feeling realms. Just because they aren’t my top 5 doesn’t invalidate them.

    5. new kid*

      I liked Finding Your Own North Star for thinking about both work but also general life direction. Curious if you didn’t find What Color is Your Parachute helpful though? That would have been my first suggestion for what you’re describing.

      1. Windchime*

        I used to own this book and I loved it so much. I read it probably a dozen times. Thanks for the reminder; I should go find it!

    6. Lora*

      I’m really glad you asked this. I have a couple of colleagues who need these recommendations desperately (STEM is definitely not their forte), and I’ve been trying to find something to suggest to them.

    7. ninabee*

      I second the Strengths Finder one, quite illuminating (it’s paid but . Also relatedly the 16personalities.com test for further personality type insight.

    11. Even Steven*

      Oooh, oooh, oooh – I know I am late to the game, but maybe you will check back and see this. I got so, so, so much out of a little book called Career Match, by Shoya Zichy. The quiz at the beginning helps you define the kinds of environments where you flourish, the kind of structure you expect, and so much more. It really clarified my needs and preferences for me, and helped me really craft good getting-to-know-company-culture-and-processes in interviews, and feel really confident about accepting my current job. The updated edition is well worth getting – if you check it out, I hope it helps you as much as it did me.

  3. Middle Manager*

    I’m currently thinking of applying for a lateral move in my company. Until now, the only way you could be at my paygrade was to be a supervisor, but they are creating a few new positions at the paygrade now that aren’t supervisory. I’ve been at this paygrade as a supervisor for about two years now and I really don’t feel I’ve excelled at being anyone’s boss. There were some complications, but nothing that doesn’t happen all the time (supervising my former peers, including those who also interviewed for the position, some long standing unprofessionalism that had been let go by previous supervisors and needed to be addressed). But the end of the day, I was definitely happier as an individual contributor and I would say better at the job (although my boss is perfectly happy with me as a supervisor).

    My biggest concern is if it would be seen as a step back. Even if they are the same paygrade, at least in my setting supervisors are clearly seen as ranking above non-supervisors. And this new non-supervisory position is now going to be the highest you can go as an individual contributor. Given that I’m only in my early 30s, I’ll almost certainly want to move up at some point, and then I’m going to be able to need to supervisor again. I can give them a legitimate reason for wanting the lateral move other than not wanting to supervise, the subject matter the new position is focused on is a genuine area of interest to me, but still, I’m worried that I’ll be setting myself up with a reputation as “can’t hack being a supervisor” and seal my long term fate in my current company to never be promoted again. Any advice?

    1. Norm*

      Are you a reader? If so, read FIRST BREAK ALL THE RULES by Buckingham and any of the FIRST 90 DAYS books by Watkins. Before you decide “never again,” make sure supervising/managing is not something you want to get better at. If you had more success at it, you might enjoy it more.

      If you’re sure you don’t want to boss anybody, then make the lateral move into the sole-contributor role at your company. If that skill is something transferable, even if the people at your current employer are disappointed that you don’t want to supervise others, you can prepare to move to other companies where that skill has enough value for you to move up by changing jobs.

      1. TooTiredToThink*

        I’ve not read these books but I also fully agree that you should exhaust all thought processes before making the jump. I worked at a previous job where after someone decided they couldn’t be a supervisor anymore and wanted to step down that they made a wide announcement that they would no longer allow people to step down (i.e. you’d have to find a new company); I’ve also seen where if you step down you can’t step up again at that job.

        I say all of this because I had people around me saying I’d make a great manager but I just wanted to be an individual contributor; but now, a few years later, I realized they were right – that I would be a good manager – and now I’m trying to take on duties so that I’ll have the experience when its time to move on.

        Basically – I believe you when you say you don’t want to be a supervisor anymore; I just don’t want you to shoot yourself in the foot *at this company* if you change your mind a few years from now.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      Is the new subject matter different enough that you could say “I wanted to move into teapots, and I felt like I needed to be an individual contributor for a while before I became a supervisor in that area,” or something along those lines?

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        I like that – it focuses the discussion on what you’d like to do versus what you don’t like to do, the latter of which could derail promotion opportunities at your current employer.

    3. Kiwiii*

      supervising takes a completely different skillset than other work. I think it would be fine to say “while i’ve enjoyed my time supervising and would be open and excited to do it again should the right opportunity arise, I’m really interested right now in pursuing This (optional because of X).” Then you just have to find an X that makes sense, if you want to include it.

    4. CL*

      I would recommend that you also look at whether you can advance from the lateral move at OTHER employers. Because while Teapot Twirler is the highest you can go as an individual/non-supervisor in your company, another company might have Teapot Twirler Trainer or Manager of Teapot Twirlers that would give you the chance to move up in salary and responsibility.

    5. Fikly*

      Why are you wedded to the idea of staying at your company if the only progression is being a supervisor, which you have identified as something you do not want to do? Are there other options for progression outside of your company?

    6. Mama Bear*

      Really depends on the company. Years ago I worked with a guy who had been there forever, made it clear he was not a manager and just kept doing his awesome work where he was happiest. We more recently had two people swap roles – one wanted to be out of management and one wanted in. Here no one cares. The former manager is an expert in his thing and still highly regarded. He just doesn’t approve anyone’s timesheet anymore. I’d discuss the optics with my boss before making the change, but if you’d ultimately be happier in that role and it’s new to your company, go for it. You didn’t have that option before.

    7. JSPA*

      Being recognized as higher-level individual contributor isn’t peanuts. You’ve nailed down “supervisory experience” for your CV, in case you need it later.

      You only get one life. And no guarantees about the economy, the longevity of your employer, or anything else. If you’re yearning to step back from supervising right here and right now, and it’s no financial pain, you might as well be happy.

      Regardless, don’t project your inner landscape outwards. You can be pretty sure that, unless you come in every day and yell, “so glad I don’t have to do supervisory shit anymore,” nobody but you needs to know that you actually kinda hated supervising. (It’ll also feel way more natural if you re-enter the supervisory path either after a break, or in a different company.)

  4. Ricky Rick*

    Hey guys, spin on an old question.

    I started a new job 3 weeks ago, and it was not what I was told it was. I’m a software engineer and I prefer to work in “back office” roles where I’m working on an internal product, and where I’m not fielding feature or support requests from the people outside the company. I know that’s what I’m good at, and I specifically ask about it at each stage of the interview process. This company said it was a back office role, but that was pretty much a lie; it’s more of an engineering support role where I handle lots of support requests from engineers at other companies who use our public APIs.

    I tried talking to my boss about it, but his response was basically “sometimes we all have to do things at work we don’t like.” So that’s a no go.

    Here’s the options, as I see them:

    * I am open to emailing my old boss and asking for that job back, but I don’t know that I’d be okay with working there for another 12+ months. I could always represent it as June 2018 – whenever I leave again, but that might not stand up to the scrutiny of a background check.
    * I could also just resign, send a “I am resigning today, thank you for this opportunity” note. I live pretty modestly and live in a city with a lot of software engineering jobs, so job hunting full-time isn’t a terrible idea.
    * I could job hunt while collecting a paycheck here. It seems dishonest and I’d rather not have a firing in my employment history, but they were also dishonest to me.

    What should I do? And how do I present it if I walk out? I was thinking of just directly saying that I was lied to, and specifically outline what I’m looking for, but I haven’t been on too many interview panels in the past and I don’t know how hiring managers, HR, or recruiters would take that.

    1. Picard*

      Its not a firing if you resign. And if there as many jobs as you report, you should be able to find something quickly and then just leave this job off your resume. I would collect a paycheck and ramp up my job search and get out of there as quickly as possible.

    2. Muriel Heslop*

      Is it dishonest to job hunt while working? If you were doing it on the clock, of course it is. But how is job hunting in the evenings dishonest? I don’t think it is. My advice is keep looking, keep doing your job, and make a change when you realize that you need to job hunt full time OR you get a new position.

      Good luck! It sounds like you are getting a raw deal.

      1. londonedit*

        In my experience it’s perfectly normal to job-hunt while still working somewhere! People don’t often resign and then look for a new job. Yes, there are some bosses who’ll take umbrage if they find out someone is looking for a new job, but it’s fairly easy to keep job-hunting to evenings and weekends and not mention anything at work. Everyone does the odd ‘doctor’s appointment that’s really a job interview’ thing, that’s just how it works.

      2. Ricky Rick*

        In my rush to get the original post out, I ended up being unclear by saying “job hunt while working.” I mean that I’d basically devote much of my time and energy to job hunting while working. The expectation here is that you work 11 hour days and eat lunch and dinner at your desk, so I’d be making tons of disappearances throughout the day for phone calls and face to face interviews. This’d definitely put me on the cut list with management so I’d be out of the job eventually.

        I’m trying not to let the bitterness show through, but I was lied to by multiple people about a part of the job that’s IMO critical. So while I don’t feel bad about it, I’m concerned about how it’ll look to colleagues and in the future. There’s plenty of jobs in my field and city where you can work on a completely internal product, and at the least the people asking about new features are the same people you see in the office and grab lunch with (say, an internal analysis tool for an insurance company).

        1. Parker*

          Gotcha. Man, your current job seems like a raw deal for a lot of reasons. If I thought I could pick up a new job within a month or two, I might just quit. Perhaps you could consult part-time with your old company for a paycheck in the mean time.

        2. Fortitude Jones*

          With this information, if you can swing it financially, you should quit and devote your days to looking for your next job. That’s ridiculous that those are your expected hours each day and the bait and switch they pulled on you to get you to accept in the first place.

        3. Brett*

          ‘This’d definitely put me on the cut list with management”
          You are working 11 hour days without real breaks. You are taking on tasks outside your job in the first few months.
          This all points to a serious serious staffing problem. They are not going to be interested in cutting anyone.

          1. Derjungerludendorff*

            And honestly, this job doesn’t really sound sustainable anyway.

            If you’re going to be out of a job soon either way, you should definitely start job hunting.
            Perhaps you can offload the pre-interviewing part to the weekends or something, but I would definitely take some time out of my workday to do interviews and such.

          2. ...*

            We fire people while being quite understaffed to the point it’s causing serious problems. If mgmt is mishandling one part of the job they might mishandle it all

        4. Observer*

          If you’re really expected to work 11 hours a day, it’s fine do job hunt while on the clock.

          Also, I agree with the others that say you’re not getting cut so fast. If you are as good as you say and the jobs in your area are as plentiful as you say, then you’ll probably find a job long before they are ready to cut.

          1. Consultant Catie*

            I agree. Them expecting you to work 11 hours a day is insane, so I think that gives you the leeway to take some liberty with how you spend your time there.

            However, if you’re uncomfortable job hunting while literally at work, you could also start pushing back on them and only working 8.5-9 hours a day, which would then give you time to job hunt off the clock. If you’re planning to leave anyway and not concerned with your reputation there, why put in the extra time?

            Good luck!

        5. Turtlewings*

          This job sounds miserable and presumptuous as well as being not what you were told. I don’t often think it’s wise to quit without a new job lined up, because you never know how things will really go, and I’m still hesitant to recommend it… but boy would it feel satisfying to just say “nope, you lied, I don’t want this job, I’m out.” I wish to goodness more people could afford to quit on the spot when a dealbreaker occurs, more bosses would actually make the connection between their behavior and their turnover!

        6. Anita Brayke*

          I’d recommend giving two weeks’ notice if you can stand it at at all; then you’ve done the decent thing which is good karma. Yes, I know they lied and were not decent to you, and I understand why you’re upset, but still…we don’t want to sink to “their standards,” as my mother would say.

        7. Notinstafamous*

          Are you in a high enough demand role you can outsource this to a recruiter? That’s what I did when I was looking – found someone who specialized in my industry, gave them my resume and my timeline and let them do the legwork of finding roles. You only have to step out for the actual interviews (“appointments”). Keep the pay check rolling for as long as possible, try to not get fired and land something new.

        8. wittyrepartee*

          Start the job hunt on the clock. Resign when you have a decent number of apps in or start to field interview requests.

          That’s awful. I’m sorry.

        9. JSPA*

          They misled you, despite intense attempts on your part to suss out the reality. You don’t owe them half as much as they want you to believe.

          in job hunting:

          Do not use their network.

          Do give the parts of the job that conform with what’s in you job description full care and attention.

          Do an honest minimum-and-a-bit of work on the aspects that violate both the job description and your “hard no’s.” (They told you that about 20% of the job was interactive, and it’s 90%? Spend at least 30% of the day on the interactive aspects.)

          Duck out exactly as much as needed, within those constraints, to job hunt.

          Do be honest, however, whether “back office” could have meant something different to them vs you. (Are the engineers elsewhere the “end users,” or are they an intermediate layer between your company and the true “end users”?)

          In an interview, don’t sound angry or sour about the job being “not as described” but do feel free to present it as fact. “Company A and I have a very different interpretation of what constitutes a ‘back office / engineering’ role. I excel in situations where someone else fields, collates, considers and passes judgement on necessary changes, and presents me with a list of improvements and features to incorporate. Handling front line support requests, including fielding support and feature requests from external engineers, are not my thing. Fielding [approx X number of] external requests daily, as I am now, uses 110% of my mental energy–it’s not sustainable. Ideally, I would never get an external phone request, and only rarely, an external email request. I believed I had made that clear at Company A, but either we failed to communicate, or their needs changed. I don’t blame them for having different needs, but I am committed to finding a role that allows me to excel by consistently and reliably allowing me to spend entire days working with [tools / code] to produce an agreed list of goals, and where my secondary duties involve internal meetings, not external support.”

      3. Kiwiii*

        I Always job hunt while employed, and usually only take about a week off between jobs. It might feel a little strange since you’re new-ish/presumably still learning the position and everything, but if you already know it’s a bad fit (bc they did a bait and switch!), I don’t think there’s anything dishonest about it. And tbh if you find a better fit in the next couple months, you could probably just leave this job off of the resume in the future.

    3. New Manager, Who dis?*

      Job hunting while working still is not dishonest and I am not sure why you think you would be fired for it. Its what i would do in your position, especially if i really didnt want to go back to my old company

      1. Ricky Rick*

        What I mean by “job hunting while I work” is basically just collecting a pay check. This job isn’t what I was told to do, and I specifically asked if it was client/general public facing, was told “no,” then found out that wasn’t the case. I’m not going to make a scene about it at work, but I’m unhappy that I was lied to.

        We also work ridiculous hours; 9-8 nonstop basically. So job hunting while working here would involve taking a 2 and a half hour lunch to pop out for an interview.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          ugh – well, ditch those hours for sure. They are in part a ploy to keep you from having time to look around for better work. If you’re willing to leave, then you really don’t care what your current bosses think.

        2. Natalie*

          11 hours a day? PASS. Given that you have a low cost of living and aren’t too worried about finding another job, I’d quit. Heck, you might even try filing for unemployment based on the job being misrepresented – worst thing that happens is they say no.

        3. New Manager, Who dis?*

          Oh, yea its hard to job hunt under those conditions. If you can financially handle a few months no pay then I would quit, especially if you hate it. Just apply heavy during your notice period, so hopefully you have interview lined up after your last day.

          1. Madame Tussaud*

            Yes, this for sure. Do as much as you possibly can during your notice period, and as much as you can leading up to it – start putting feelers out, looking online, calling old contacts, etc. Then once you start getting interviews set up you can put in your notice period and it won’t matter if you’re leaving throughout the day.

        4. Happy Lurker*

          I would absolutely job hunt while at work. I would give it a couple weeks to a month of job hunting and wait until I was either fed up with your employer or I find a new job. I wouldn’t go without a paycheck unless the position is crazy toxic. Once you are at toxic level and you feel comfortable money wise, I would run.
          Ten and eleven hour days is unreasonable compounded with the blatant lie regarding public facing position. I am seething for you.
          Good luck!

        5. JSPA*

          Other engineers, even if external, are not commonly considered the “general public.” So mentally, I think you need to leave room for them having used a different definition of that term, rather than a pure “bait and switch.” (It’s not like you’re dealing with “is the computer turned on” levels of PEBCAK.)

          Spelling out more precisely what your ideal day and your minimal tolerable day would look like, might serve you well, and you can probably get away with that, if your skills are in demand.

    4. samecoin*

      if you hate the job that much, and can afford to live while you search for a decent amount of time, quit now, don’t make yourself miserable if you do not have to

    5. Blob*

      Start job hunting again, and do not quit until you find another job. Please keep in mind that you need to be happy, or at least comfortable, in your new job. They will find someone else. When you quit, tell your boss that this is not the job that you were expecting, even though you are grateful that they gave you your chance, but that you won’t waste their or your time anymore, and that you are sure they will someone else.
      We need to stop feeling guilty about not being happy in our jobs! Your employer will find someone else, and you will find a more suitable job for yourself!

      3. designbot*

        +1
        And see if any of your legwork from the prior job hunt might be useful to you as a starting point. Was there anyone you turned down that seemed like a high quality option? Reach back out to them and let them know that your situation is unfortunately not working out and ask if they are still looking to fill the role.

    6. rayray*

      I’d suggest job hunting while collecting a paycheck, so long as the job isn’t truly miserable. It could be super risky to just quit with nothing lined up. I think too you can talk about it in future interviews just saying the job wasn’t what you had expected or been told it would be. Try to stay neutral though so you don’t come off as aggressively bad mouthing them. I think this happens to people a lot, and I’m sure they will understand.

    7. CoffeeForLife*

      A lot of people job hunt while employed; unless you are doing it AT WORK you shouldn’t be fired for cruising employment listings. Best of luck finding a position that aligns with your needs – make sure you ask all the probing questions during interviews to suss out the jobs that aren’t good fits!

    8. noahwynn*

      Personally, I would continue working and also look for a new job. It is not dishonest. You’ve expressed your desire not to do certain tasks during the interview process and you’ve mentioned it again to your manager. Sure we sometimes have to do things we’d rather not at work, but when the role evolves into you doing only the thing you hate there is zero wrong with moving on.

    9. ThatGirl*

      I think you’re being a bit black and white on this; you can definitely still job hunt while working there, though I would recommend trying to do the job to the best of your ability. If it’s a very short-term job you don’t have to put it on your resume, and it’s not dishonest to keep looking because the job you took wasn’t what you expected it to be.

      As for future interviews, if the current job does come up, you can just say “it turned out to be more engineering support than I was expecting,” no need to say you were lied to.

    10. Mama Bear*

      I agree with resuming the job hunt for something else. As long as you aren’t wasting company time on it, this is what most people do.

    11. rayray*

      One thing to remember also, because it seems you feel uneasy about job searching while employed-

      Just as much as an employer can decide if someone is a good fit for them, you also get to decide if the company is a good fit for you. If you messed up or were just a bad employee in general, they probably would consider firing you and maybe eventually let you go. You have just as much right on your end to make the choice to cut ties with them.

    12. Mama Bear*

      I agree to look for a job while keeping this one. If you are asked about it, you can simply say the role ended up being more customer facing than first represented and not what you were looking for. The world is small and I think that the less you try to throw them under the bus when interviewing the better. Remember that they are evaluating how you will work with their team, too, so you don’t want to immediately be seen as unfriendly and adversarial. When you get an offer in hand, give your 2 weeks’ notice. That’s pretty standard. I think it would look better than walking out/quitting on the spot, even though it’s only been a few weeks.

    13. Artemesia*

      I’d find a job while working there and then resign because the work was not what you signed on for. Drop it from your resume after you are re-established. I’d not resign and then search; even when things seem like they would be easy, stuff happens and it is harder to catch on somewhere else when you are unemployed. Obviously if you are so terrible at this new job that you are about to be fired, that would be different — so don’t be terrible — be good and then be gone.

      1. Ricky Rick*

        When I say “job hunting while employed,” I don’t mean the regular stepping out to your car or an empty meeting room to take a phone interview. I mean mentally checking out of the job and just having my butt in the seat so I don’t get fired for not showing up. We work crazy hours here, so I’d be taking a lot of suspicious long lunches and doctor appointments if I job hunt on the clock. I’d bet money that management is going to realize I’m not actually going for 3 doctors appointments a week (or even taking my grandpa to the doctor) and terminate me eventually.

        1. OperaArt*

          You’ve said this in several spots now. Yes, you’d have to take oddly long and/or frequent breaks, but why would you have to mentally check out of the job? You seem to be approaching this as all or nothing. Start job hunting, take time off when you need to, do your current job as well as you can when you’re actually there.

          1. Ricky Rick*

            I suppose it would be more accurate to say that I’m demoralized after the conversation with my boss where his response was “we all have to do things we don’t like at work.”

            1. Observer*

              Which has nothing to do with job hunting per se.

              Job hunt, but keep doing your job. Not for 11 hours a day, every day – that’s unsustainable. But most of the time.

            2. Jaydee*

              I mean, it sounds like you’re basically at the point where you’re not wanting to do the work anyway. So if you’re going to be physically present but not doing any work, yeah, you should at least fill that time productively by job searching. Because it won’t take long for deadlines to get missed or customers to complain and for you to be fired. So it’s better to have a head start on the job search in that case.

              But I would encourage you to rethink this. You’re the only one who stands to get hurt from this plan. Your employer is not going to learn from this. Your employer is not going to be hurt by this. And if they get to the point where they fire you, they’re not going to care a bit about how upset you were or how you were impacted by their bait and switch. They’ll just see you as a bad employee who slacked off at work and who they were justified in firing.

              A better plan is to still come to work and do your job. Don’t put in any extra effort. Maybe don’t even do your best work. But do an acceptable job 75% of the time and job search 25% of the time.

              You’ll also present better in interviews if you have the mindset of “This job turned out not to be what I expected in some ways that are a real dealbreaker for me, so I’m going to cut my losses and try to move on quickly to something better” instead of “My employer lied to me and I’m too demoralized to even do any work.”

              Now, your current employer won’t learn the error of their ways from you giving notice a few months from now either. But you’ll at least be able to smile in smug self-satisfaction knowing you were the bigger person in the situation. And you might empower some of your coworkers to do likewise.

            3. JSPA*

              That may be true. (It’s broadly true, sometimes.)

              If he’d made the case that this was an exceptional circumstance (which it could be, if you joined the day some major new product went live, and in which case, it does make sense to power through for a couple of months)…or if taking calls 15% if the time is throwing you off, to the point where you can’t do the 85% of actual engineering that you expected to do (in which case, you still need to leave, but it’s nobody’s fault that they didn’t grok the full extent of your aversion to distractions)…he might have a legit point.

              Unless you had said, prior to hiring, “I do not want and can not stand to get so much as one or two outside communications per day, as it breaks my concentration.”

              But deciding whether or not you were lied to; dealing with being demoralized; and deciding how and when to job search, are three, separable challenges. Divide and conquer.

        2. WellRed*

          You sound pretty checked out already to the point I’m worried it will affect your attitude at work. You know you don’t want the job and the hours suck. Don’t wait to be fired if you can afford to quit. Getting fired could hurt you; resigning with your head held high will not.

        3. Mockingjay*

          I’ve been in your situation – it’s the one time I job hopped after 4 months.

          You need to let go of your anger. Yeah, what they did sucks and it would piss anyone off. But a calm, rational mindset is needed for two things: 1) to thoroughly investigate new jobs so you don’t end up in the same situation. You won’t interview well if you’re seething with frustration. 2) to do the job you currently have to the best of your ability. You may hate it, but that job could end up on your references one day. And, they ARE paying you. So don’t burn the bridge.

          Leave an hour earlier each day. Build that time into your evening for job searching and resume work. Save the long lunch hours for actual interviews.

          2. wittyrepartee*

            And being that angry isn’t good for you. It’s work, you’ll leave soon, the anger isn’t serving you.

        4. wittyrepartee*

          So, I think the first thing you need to do is to start taking better care of your mental health. This job is clearly wearing on you, you should leave it ASAP, but while you’re still working there you should do medium quality work. You should do this partially because it’s a matter of self respect.

    14. OtterB*

      If you can afford to do it, and there are lots of jobs in your field around, I’d say go ahead and quit and just leave the job off your resume. Continuing to work to the best of your ability while also job hunting is one thing; clearly slacking off is another, and it seems to me it would be bad for your own attitude. If you leave it off your resume you won’t need to spin it to recruiters/hiring managers, but if for some reason you need to, I wouldn’t use the phrase “lied to,” as it makes you sound angry/bitter. Which you are, justifiably, but you don’t want to sound like it. I suggest instead saying that the job turned out to be much more customer-facing than you expected and didn’t use your strengths.

    15. macaroni*

      I’d do number 3 for some limited time, and then go to #2 if your finances can take it. Overall I recommend against staying in a job like this. I’ve been job hunting from a job that isn’t what I thought it was and as time goes on and on and on, my resume just gets gappier and gappier with the skills I want to be doing, which looks pretty terrible. I try to highlight how I’m “keeping up with the industry” but it’s now been two years since I did any work in it and it’s very frustrating. Don’t be me.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Bingo. The longer you’re not doing the work you want to be doing, the harder it will be to get back to it later.

    16. HowIMetYourFather*

      Wow, you sound like the kind of software engineer that we are looking for at my organization. Have you or would you ever consider working for a non-profit organization? We have an opening up on our career page right now! The work is exactly as you described, building and improving programs for internal company use (and we’d keep you busy for sure!). Let me know if you’d want to take a look, I’ll send you a link to our website.

    17. Heat's Kitchen*

      I didn’t read the other comments, but here’s my take.
      First, it’s going to be an extremely personal decision.

      – If you actually WANT to go back to your other company, you certainly could reach out to your old manager. A lot depends on why you left. And they might not take you back, you have to be prepared for that.
      – It isn’t dishonest to look for a new job while working. That’s what everyone does. Yes, ideally, you wouldn’t do it after three weeks, but sometimes bad fits happen.
      – I personally wouldn’t ever leave on my own without having another job lined up. I don’t think you’d get fired unless you actually suck at your job.
      – In the end, I think the question you need to ask yourself is if you can handle working there for the next period of time until you find something else. If the answer is “nope, i want to be done yesterday” then maybe job hunting is the right thing for you.

      1. MissDisplaced*

        Some people are very fearful of ‘the man’ and big corporate.
        But what this company did was very dishonest! It’s a two-way street people.

      2. Lilysparrow*

        If you read the comment replies, OP is talking about using work time to job hunt *instead of working.*

    19. Engineer Girl*

      There are always parts of a job we don’t like. The difference is that there are substantial parts of the job that are different than advertised. You even asked about it! Do not ever feel guilty for leaving under these conditions.

      It is OK to job hunt while employed – just do it on your own time (don’t steal from the company).

      If future employers ask why you are leaving then tell them the truth “the job was substantially different than advertised. They advertised a development position and then put me in tech support.”
      They’ll get it.

    20. MissDisplaced*

      I’m sorry, but this company sucks! And ESPECIALLY given that you were hired only 3 weeks ago for what you thought was something very different. The management saying “sometimes we all have to do things at work we don’t like,” when confronted with your VERY LEGITIMATE concerns is basically saying they don’t give a crap they pulled a bait and switch.

      I would leave ASAP.
      Depending on your finances, I would leave without notice, but if you need the money to survive, work it out for a paycheck. You might also approach them with this concept: This job is not what I interviewed for and I do not intend to stay in it long-term. However, I will agree to work contract for X amount of time. I was able to do that one time, but it is a risk they may let you go.

    21. Not So NewReader*

      What to say when you do leave: “I asked repeatedly if this was a back office role and repeatedly I was reassured that it was. It turned out that the job is not a back office role, it’s not what was described to me and not the type of work that I excel at.”

      If they object or try to pooh-pooh you, just repeat, “The job turned out to be something very different than what was described to me on the interview.”
      Here instead of saying “I was lied to” you simply show how you were lied to. They can figure it out or not. Most likely they will bamboozle the next applicant also.

      1. Koala dreams*

        The advantage of this script is that you can weed out future employers that expect the same thing. If they know up front that you would rather quit than do this other work, they can save both you and them pointless 2nd interviews and negotiations.

    22. fhqwhgads*

      I would start with the third option, but if you’re well and truly miserable and can’t take it any more while you search, switch to the second. It’s not dishonest to work for them and continue looking if you’ve decided the job is not a good fit.
      The fourth option is to raise it with your manager: hey when I interviewed we’d discussed X, but this seems be a lot of Y, is there any way to get the Y off my plate so I can primarily do X like discussed? If they say yes and actually do it, problem solved. If not, well, no one should be shocked you’re looking elsewhere.

    23. voluptuousfire*

      Resigning without having anything lined up is OK. Sometimes you ‘re given a false bill of goods with a job.

      If you’re a software engineer, you will find something much more quickly than the average person. Definitely look into some decent local recruiters (go a boutique agency if you can) and see if they can hook you up with some contract work. Better to work at a few contract gigs and build up your resume vs. stagnating at a different company and potentially being booted out.

      1. North Wind*

        I’ve stayed in bad-fit jobs for long periods of time while deciding what to do next, and it really stalled me out and ground me down. So personally, I would give two weeks notice immediately (not for their sake, for your own reputation) and get out of there. 11 hour days don’t give you the time or energy to job hunt (even if you’re checked out, it’s a hassle). And it sounds like you have a bit of a financial cushion and your skill is in demand. The caveat is, I know some people have very little tolerance for any hint of financial risk, which is understandable (and often wise), so they may be more stressed by being jobless than by being in a bad job. The decision is really subjective. But if I could swing it at all, I would definitely give myself the luxury of focusing solely on finding a great job.

        As for future interviews, if you ever need to speak about this job, I would be open that it was a bad fit and why. I wouldn’t speak bitterly about it, but I would matter-of-factly explain the situation. It could lead to a good conversation and will underscore to your interviewer that you are serious about this aspect of your next job. This just happened to me…

        I freelance, and this week someone (“Ed”) got in touch with me on LinkedIn and asked if I would do some subcontract work for his client. I had the sense that it was not the right fit and mentioned it, but Ed said he thought it was and did I at least want to have a conversation. I said sure, I was open to learning more about it. He sent my resume to the client, and forwarded back to me some additional questions they had.

        From the questions, I again had the sense that this wasn’t a fit. I wrote back to Ed and very explicitly (and good-humoredly) laid out the differences between how I work and what his client seemed to be looking for. At this point I turned the opportunity down and said I would be happy to stay in touch with him, but this particular project was not the right fit.

        Well, he came back and asked me to at least have the call. Sigh. I haven’t been busy this week, there is always a chance that I don’t have the full picture from our emails, and a call isn’t committing to anything, so I agreed.

        The call ended up being with a panel of three people. As an interview, it went great. We had a lovely conversation about their project and my background. I definitely have the skills and experience needed. After nearly an hour, we got around to talking about the part that I thought wasn’t the right fit, and… IT WASN’T THE RIGHT FIT. lol.

        I told them that I had expressed concerns about this earlier and I think they were vaguely aware of that. One of the guys actually said we should have discussed that aspect first. They then started to talk about compromises (like, if a potential employer tried to get you to do support if it were only 50% of your job). I responded that I didn’t want to try to force this to work or down the line we would both be unhappy. They seemed surprised I said that, but thanked me for being so open. The conversation really opened up after that and they became very curious about how I *do* work and excited about the possibility of maybe working with me in the future – but for something other than this project.

        Ed would have been happy to push me through whether it was right or not. I still don’t think he understands why it wouldn’t work. He’s hyper-focused on being the supplier to his client, no matter what he supplies. But his client cares a great deal how it will pan out, and was definitely grateful to have this “fit” issue out in the open so they can make a good decision.

        Anyway whatever you decide, maybe consider leaving a review for the employer on Glassdoor about the bait and switch.

    24. Lilysparrow*

      Job hunting on the side and making no attempt to invest in work relationships or perform at a “rock star” level because your mental energy is elsewhere? Totally fine.

      Job hunting on the clock *instead of* doing work for the company that’s paying you? Not okay.

    25. CM*

      If you’re willing to quit, you have nothing to lose by trying to force the issue. If you end up having to leave, you can just leave this job off your resume when you job search (if you’re worried that they’ll say something mean about you should somebody call them).

      If this is truly unacceptable to you to the point that you’re going to leave, tell them that in a normal tone of voice. Go back and be like, “Hey, so I thought about what you said, and I’m not sure I conveyed how much of a deal-breaker this is for me.” Explain that your understanding had been that this wasn’t a customer-facing job and that you wouldn’t have taken the job if you knew that’s what it was going to be, and you want to get a sense of whether this is going to stay a big part of the role because, if it is, then, thanks but this didn’t work out.

      You don’t have to pretend to be glad about it, as long as you can stop yourself from seeming rageful about it. You can say something like, “To be honest, this is pretty frustrating, because I thought that we’d discussed this during the interview.”

      They might be willing to back down or they might not, but, like I said, if you’re willing to walk out already then you have nothing to lose.

      1. Database Developer Dude*

        CM, if the OP goes this route, I would, in his or her place, explicitly cite the fact that they were TOLD in the interview ‘no’, while the reality is ‘yes’ about the part of the job they don’t like. They were misled, and would not have taken the job had they received the truth.

        The ball needs to be in the employer’s court.

  5. nhb*

    Ergonomics Question
    I have a lot of back and neck pain. I’ve been to physical therapy, been dry needled, take anti-inflammatories, take muscle relaxers…basically been through the gamut of options for muscle pain. Can anyone make any recommendations for ergonomic office solutions? I’ve heard the word a lot but I’m not really sure how it looks IRL. Specific recommendations or references would be extremely helpful to me. Thanks so much, AAM Community!

    1. Sharkie*

      A nice butt/ lower pack support pad works for me. I also have my screens on a little stand so I am looking straight ahead instead of down.

      1. SarahKay*

        The monitor stands can be surprisingly pricey for what they are. If your company won’t pay for them (they should – ergonomics is important!) and you don’t fancy paying for them yourself, a ream of paper (block of 500 sheets, which is the usual standard for office paper supplies to be sold in) is an excellent substitute. They’re cheap, sturdy, and unbreakable; you could even use two blocks if you really need lots of extra height.
        My company would pay for proper stands because it takes ergonomics (and thus, HSE) seriously but I used a block of paper temporarily, found it was the perfect height, and just never bothered to order a stand.

        1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

          Hardcover textbooks also work well for this, if you have some handy. I joke that I use precalculus every day in my job…

    2. Future Stay-at-Homesteader*

      My experience has mostly been with sciatica and lower-body issues, but I also have TMJ, which causes some neck/head stuff. My top recommendations are:
      1. Stretch as often as you can (you probably know this, thanks to the PT)
      2. Make sure your desk fits you. You want your feet resting comfortably on the floor (I am unusually short, so I use a footstool as well as a lumbar cushion that ensures I’m sitting forward in my chair but still supported).
      3. Make sure your monitors are at the correct level so you’re not straining/looking down at them.
      4. Get wristpads for you keyboard and mouse, and an ergonomic mouse. Having a vertical mouse can really help with wrist/elbow/arm pain.
      5. Set an reminder every half hour or hour or so to look up, stretch a bit, and recalibrate your posture.
      6. Google “office ergonomics” and check out Mayo’s guide for these things!

      1. nhb*

        I also have TMJ…forgot to add that to the list :)

        So when you say my desk fitting me, what does that mean specifically? I am actually reasonably tall for a female (5’9″). In my desk chair when I sit up straight, my feet are flat on the floor, and my elbows are bent at maybe a 100 degree angle with my forearms on the desk itself, where my keyboard and mouse are. My monitor is too low…and I only have one…so I can fix the monitor height, but I’m not sure what to look for as far as the desk itself.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Think about any classical pianist you’ve seen — that’s the seating & arm posture you want.
          Your forearms should actually be slightly above the desk — those “wrist rests” are about the right height, but if you lean on them you’re doing yourself a disservice.
          Swimming has been the best thing for ongoing “body maintenance” that I’ve found. Especially noodling around with the introductory synchronized swimming exercises I learned in a college PE class. Look up “feet-first sculling”, and scroll for the version where your arms are over your head.
          Is your company big enough to have a safety officer? My company actually has a contract with an ergonomics consultant come in , and it was eye-opening. I thought I knew where the monitors would be — and I was still too low. (I’m a hair under 5’8″ myself.)

          1. Seeking Second Childhood*

            Oh and be very careful of where you put any reference materials — too low or way off to one side, and your neck is doing a lot of extra work.

      2. Duckles*

        I’m petite so always have the problem of desk is too high, so arms are at kind of a 70 degree angle, but if I make my chair any higher, there’s no room for my legs under my desk? Anyone solve this?

    3. Miranda Priestly’s Assistant*

      I’ve also had to go to PT for back of neck issues. I always try to make sure I’m always facing straight ahead while keeping my arms right down my sides for posture. For this, I keep my laptop on a platform. I’ve also been advised to keep a rolled up towel between by back and the chair around where my bra line would be. I still haven’t done this but I think I should as it would help.

      1. nhb*

        Thanks so much! Would the towel be horizontal or vertical? I’m guessing horizontal based on the bra line, but just want to make sure since I’m not entirely certain what that would resolve.

        1. International Holding, Unlimited*

          It helps prevent you from curving your spine back into the chair – you sit up straighter. If fussing with a loose towel is obnoxious, look for a ‘lumbar pillow’ that straps to your chair. I’ve been using one for a few months and it helps, although I keep mine a little lower – just at the bottom of my ribs.

          If you can get one (my last office wanted a doctor’s note before they would cough up), get a standing desk and a squishy floor pad to stand on. I had a major back injury a few years ago and the difference between standing and sitting for 8 hours a day was magical. Once I was out of my brace, I went back to mixed sitting/standing.

        2. Miranda Priestly's Assistant*

          Yes – I agree with what International Holding says. It doesn’t matter which direction it’s facing as long is it closes that gap. It also doesn’t have to be a towel, but that was what my PT suggested since it’s more likely for people to own one.

          Another thing I would recommend – if you don’t feel too self-conscious using it at an office – is a theracane! (Google Image it). It helps you massage out knots on your back.

    4. noahwynn*

      Many workers comp insurance companies offer free or greatly reduced cost ergonomic consultants. Might be something to ask HR or whoever handles your works comp claims about.

      1. BeeGee*

        I definitely second the comments on making sure your desk and monitors are at a level so that you’re not constantly looking down at your screens. You can get a variety of different stands that can elevate the monitors so you can look eye level at them. I found out this is the reason I woke up one day with severe tightness in my neck/shoulder area!

        A desk chair with some sort of lower back support is a blessing as well, and if you can’t get a new chair, they have attachable lower back rests that are a good back up option.

        My last suggestion is also trying to add some sort of basic core workout into your routine, because boosting your core strength helps to keep you from slouching and strengthens your back muscles. (Note: if you have more severe/chronic pain, make sure you check with your doctor first and always start slow and work on proper form!)

    5. nhb*

      Thanks everyone! So for a little more detail: I have fibromyalgia and Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome. So while I can stretch some, I’m not supposed to stretch very often because of the EDS. I also have ADHD, so I often get very absorbed in my work and tune out everything else…until I suddenly look up from what I’m doing and realize I’ve been looking down, hunched over for 3 hours. I’m really grateful to hear about the placement of the monitor and the chair! I will ask for the ergo mouse and see how it goes :)

      1. BadWolf*

        Does you email or calendar program at work let you add alerts or reminders? Maybe add some to remind you to move?

      2. Anona*

        I’ve heard that fitbits buzz every so often to remind you to move. I’m not sure if you can program it to buzz at a certain interval, but that may be a solution if you want something to remind you to get moving while at your desk!

          1. Tort-ally HareBrained*

            You may find the reminder once a hour is enough. I often don’t stretch but walk to the bathroom or water fountain when mine buzzes.

        2. JustaTech*

          There’s also a device that you wear on your collar or shoulder that buzzes if you hunch over. My old safety officer wore one for a while to address some upper/mid back problems she was having.

        3. Not So NewReader*

          My boss sets her alarm on her cell to remind her to get up and move about. She too will become totally immersed in something and look up to find that hours have gone by.

      3. theoneoverthere*

        I am not sure if this would be something you cold given your conditions, but sometimes I do like 5-10 quick yoga moves. Enough to help me stretch my muscles and refresh my mind. I have an office so I can shut the door. In the past I have found a secluded spot in the building I worked in.

      4. Future Stay-at-Homesteader*

        Even if you don’t “stretch,” getting up and moving around a bit is a good idea. My husband also can get engrossed in work for hours at a time, so he sets timers (as mentioned above) to remind him to just stand up every once in a while.

      5. anonagain*

        Look up Lisa Howell from Perfect Form Physiotherapy on youtbe. Specifically episode 2: hypermobility hacks how to sit when you are hypermobile.

        My own PT taught me to give my neck /upperback stabilizers a break break by moving my head back and forth a bit when I start to tire. I’m not sure if the reasoning holds up, but it feels good. Moving a lot is the single most useful intervention for me. Both in the moment and as a broader life strategy.

        Even my really nice chair starts to hurt eventually. I change up where/how I’m sitting at home a ton. You won’t have as many options in the office, but experiment with doing what you can. I had one of those wobble cushion things that I put on my chair for a little bit and then took off the chair, so that’s two variations.

        The hyper focus thing is a problem and you just do what you can. With all of this. I find when I’m not absorbed in what I’m doing I fidget a lot. I tried to channel it into fidgeting that was nicer for my body — rocking back and forth when I am alone, rolling a ball under the desk with my foot, swinging my legs. (I have a rocking chair at home which is great for this.)

        Paul Ingraham’s writing at painscience.com has also been very useful to me. I find understanding more about pain very useful and his site helped me think about how I was trying and evaluating different pain management strategies. (That’s where I got the idea of using a wobble cushion to change my chair instead of putting it down and sitting on it forever.)

        Good luck. And, please come back and let us know what you found that works! I’m always looking for more things to try.

        1. nhb*

          That video was so great! Thank you for the recommendation. She had a lot of good tips on how to sit and help reduce the muscle stress.

      6. Paladin*

        I’m hypermobile and still struggling with all the aches and neck pains too…but I’ve found a sit-to-stand desk helpful to keep changing things up throughout the day.

        Could also be worth checking out The Trigger Point Handbook, and I really love my Supernova massage ball for rolling out those traps, also lacrosse balls. And regular massage if you can, heating pads/beanbags for the neck especially.

        1. nhb*

          I love the Trigger Point Handbook! Super helpful. I only have a cubicle, so I can’t really do any of the massage at work, although I can do minor stretching at my desk. I do have a heating pad at my desk. I can’t do regular massage, but I do need to ask about more dry needling.

      7. Seeking Second Childhood*

        If they’re willing to buy office equipment for you, look into a sit/stand desk. When I remember to stand it up it’s a good variation.

      8. Alexandra Lynch*

        Also fibro and ADHD. Set alarms to move, and definitely work in some low impact exercise, since you can’t stretch.
        I stretch formally twice a day and informally several times a day when my right hip gets tight. I have lordosis and if I don’t keep my hamstrings and deep hip flexors loose, I wind up with intense pain.

      9. Not So NewReader*

        I cannot say enough for regular hydration. Measure it out in the morning if that helps you keep regular amounts going into you daily. Not a cure all, by any means, but if you know you can knock out one or more annoying discomforts by doing this it might become worth the effort.

        I looove my track ball mouse. My wrists got messy there for a bit. I dragged out an old track ball I had and what a difference. At work I have a wireless regular mouse, that makes a difference also because I have greater flexibility in where I can put the mouse and in turn where I can put my arm. Anyway, with these two changes my wrist problem is a shadow of what it used to be and I thought I was heading for surgery.

      10. Q without U*

        I would also go for hours without remembering to take a break, but I found a solution that really works for me. There’s free software called “Workrave” that lets you set intervals for breaks – something pops up on the screen reminding you to take a break. I have mine set to take a 20 second mini-break every 8 minutes, and a 5 minute rest break every hour. You can also postpone the breaks if they come at a inconvenient time, but I try not to do that too often as it defeats the purpose.

      11. Nesprin*

        Honestly, if you have EDS, you have ergo needs which are not typical… This would be a good thing to talk over with your doctor or a physiotherapist instead of us ignorants on the internet.

      12. Cartographical*

        I really recommend one of those sculpted seat cushions with the tail bone cut out, especially if subluxations are an issue as with EDS. You might want to ask around about an appropriate one for your condition, of course. For me, one of those cushions made a huge difference to my neck/back pain even though it’s under my butt. I think of it like having a good foundation: if the pelvis is well-seated and the coccyx not compressed, it’s easier to maintain good posture all the way up.

        Some people also find a split keyboard can open up the shoulder girdle and reduce stress on the joints of the arm and hand. Good luck!

      13. Another Zebra*

        I am also EDS. I put a standing desk on my desk side table and alternated between sitting and standing – made a huge difference. I built my standing desk from a cheap IKEA end table with a keyboard shelf at the proper height, but you can ask if they will buy you one. I disagree with an earlier poster about keyboard height – your arms and wrists should make a straight line with hands slightly below elbows (I learned after permanent injury to both hands). I also suggest keeping ice packs, a heating pad and a TENS unit at work and take breaks every hour or so to stand, apply ice, heat or TENS if needed. Set a timer or get a Fitbit with an hourly reminder. And see if your company will do an ergonomic assessment. When I hurt my hands at work, my boss sent the environmental workplace officer and I got a new desk, a fantastic chair, and adaptive technology to keep me working.

    6. LadyTesla*

      You might want to try a standing or a tilted desk. Having my back be straight while working really helped me. You can get the desk adjusters for like $20 on Amazon that are basically a shelf. I also have seen people get foot stools or biking tools under the desk.

    7. BadWolf*

      Another desk jockey, no medical training.

      If you are on a laptop, I would suggest getting a docking station and full keyboard, monitor/s and a mouse. Don’t be crouched over a laptop all day.

      Where are your monitors? Make sure you’re not staring off the side — your main monitor should be in the middle. Make sure it’s at the right/recommended height.

      Where’s you keyboard and/or mouse? Bad placement of those could pull your shoulder which will pull on your neck. A couple years ago, I actually swapped to mousing left handed because my right shoulder/neck/etc was one big bundle of pain. Moving the load to my left hand for mousing really helped (I have some scoliosis issues, so still some right side issues, but this did help). It was a rough two weeks to transition, but now it’s totally natural (the brain is amazing).

      Are you able to access a sit/stand desk? Swapping between sitting and standing might help (I wouldn’t swap to 100% standing). We have desks that are motorized and have heights you can preprogram so you can set a “sit” and “stand” height for yourself and then it only takes a couple second to raise/lower your desk. But quality sit/stand desks can be pricey. There are some mods/DIY options out there.

      1. nhb*

        Thanks! I do have a laptop, but a docking station, monitor, mouse, and keyboard at my desk. This desk isn’t set up well, and I don’t have a keyboard tray. I need to face the entrance to my cubicle, so it’s a bit of an odd set up. But oddly, while I’m right-handed, my left shoulder and neck is where I’m the most painful.

        If anyone is considering dry-needling, but having hesitations, let me say that that was the most helpful thing for me. I would honestly get it every single day if they’d let me. I get a lot of muscle knots, and “crunchy” muscles, and I love deep-tissue massage (that’s the only kind I get because the other types I’ve had don’t really do anything for me). The dry-needling is like a deep-tissue massage for each muscle knot. It feels a little odd, but so good.

        1. Paladin*

          See if you can get a physiatrist who can do a trigger point injection – it’s like dry-needling except with a syringe. Ideally without the lidocane, since it’s the needle doing the work and not the drugs, but that can be harder to get someone to do. If you thought dry-needling was amazing (and I’ve done it too)… this is so much better.

          1. nhb*

            I’ve done injections before, of lidocaine and of cortisone (with lidocaine), but I have an adverse reaction to cortisone now (had WAY too much of it). The lidocaine helps, but I found dry needling to be much more helpful for me. I wonder why though, since it’s essentially the same thing…but dry needling me, the PT pistoned the needle in and out of the muscle knot, making it contract multiple times, whereas with the injections, they just do it once, and basically numb it for me.

            1. Paladin*

              Weird! I get allll the muscle twitches with the injections (no drugs), and not always with the dry needling. But glad it works for you! Unfortunately the only solution for me to really ever solve this is probably to get stronger, but that’s just so hard and so slow. Best of luck!

    8. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m not sure how your other conditions will appreciate it but my back/neck pain has been pretty much erased with my standing desk adaption. It’s one of the dohickies that lets you change positions. Sitting all day long is death on the skeletal system, we’re not built to do any one position for long periods of time.

      I also echo to talk to HR. They may have it through workers comp or another association they’re apart of. We’ve had access to the actual specialists before that can come in and measure your space and distances for you, then recommend the right equipment.

      1. nhb*

        I work for my state government, so we definitely do have a lot of wellness programs. However, my specific employer is rather tight with their purchases. I have a coworker who has had two back surgeries since she’s been here, and they denied her a new chair…she finally just bought a lumbar cushion herself. We don’t have anything like the consulting, although on the next employee survey, I will definitely recommend that! So in the meantime, I’m just trying to figure out what will help, and then I’ll ask my boss what (if anything) work will do to help, and then see what I can afford to get myself after I get her response.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Ew. That’s awful.

          I would suggest getting yourself a doctors note then. Press the fact that it’s going to turn into a work place related issue and will jack their workers comp up when your condition deterioration can be linked to your employer not accommodating your requirements.

          1. nhb*

            Ooh, thanks for that! Luckily my boss is great, so I know she will advocate for whatever I need. I guess I’m just trying to figure out what will be the greatest bang for the buck, so to speak, for relief.

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              I hate asking for things, I had a whole “proposal” put together about why I should get a standing desk going into my bosses office. Needless to say I was over prepared, he just approved it pretty much instantly, lol.

              But yes, you can always push back when it’s a medical issue like this! It’s not “I want this fancy looking keyboard because it matches my eyes!” it’s “This will save my body and also your pocketbook”

              It’s like I could start working somewhere tomorrow, after 17 years of working towards carpel tunnel. And if I’m diagnosed while on their payroll, they get the workers comp claim hit. So it’s in their best interest to not make me beg and plead and act a mess to take care of my wrists, you know? Just something to keep in mind when requesting accommodations when it is in your healths best interest :)

    9. san junipero*

      I work with an amazing yoga teacher who specializes in working around injuries, chronic conditions, etc. as well as posture. I slipped two discs in 2010, and in less than a year I’ve gone from being unable to sit in a chair comfortably for more than 15 minutes to typing at my desk for three hours without a problem.

      One thing she frequently suggests is a soft posture corrector — basically a fabric/elastic brace that keeps your shoulders back and your neck straight. There are hard-back versions as well, but I think the softer versions are probably better, especially with fibromyalgia. It might hurt a little at first as your muscles get used to it, but you should feel a lot better with time.

      Also, I know you said you’ve tried everything, but I had also done basically everything for my back including physical therapy and this has been the only thing that’s gotten me from 75% healed to almost 100%. If you live somewhere there are likely to be specialized yoga instructors, give it a try.

      1. nhb*

        Thanks so much, that sounds amazing! What kind of specialization is it, though, that I should search for? “injury specialized yoga instructor near me” or something like that…?

        I am very willing to try new things! I just listed what I’d been through as some background so those things weren’t suggested, since I’ve already done them :)

    10. Mockingjay*

      There are furniture stores specializing in ergonomic furniture for office and home. Many of them offer fitting services in which they come into your office or home and determine best fits for chairs, desks, and table heights.

      I have no idea what these services cost (probably not cheap), but if you are in a long-term environment (home or office), it could be worth it. I had a coworker with severe back injuries who got a special ergonomic chair, and a technician came to the office to custom adjust the chair and her cubicle worksurface height. She said it gave her immense pain relief and helped her heal.

    11. YarnOwl*

      If you work for a large company or one with any kind of manufacturing or factory setting involved, you probably have a risk management team that include someone with industrial hygiene experience (which include ergonomics) and they’d probably do an adjustment for you. There’s also a chance that whatever broker handles your company’s commercial insurance has someone who can do that (I work for an insurance broker with a safety team and one of them did my ergonomics adjustment). Kind of a long shot but worth looking into! From what I understand, it’s kind of different for every person depending on your desk, chair, height, etc.

    13. Usually Lurks*

      The things that have helped me the most have been a fully articulated keyboard platform (has a heavy-duty swing arm that is attached to the underside of the desk), a copy stand that is directly in front of me (hangs over the edge of the desk between monitor and keyboard), and something called Contour Rollermouse. The Rollermouse takes some getting used to, but I’m a graphic designer and I’ve adapted and wouldn’t go back (I’m actually on my third one) . This all lets me keep my arms/hands in a neutral position in front of me. (my problems are in the neck/shoulder, and started when I was holding my arm out awkwardly to access my track ball.)

    14. Clever Name*

      Specific recommendations will be difficult to give without knowing more details of your body type (height, general size, torso length, leg length, arm length) and the current set up of your workstation. Is your company big enough to offer ergonomic evaluations? I have similar issues with back and neck pain, so I definitely feel you. My main issues are I am a small person with a very short torso. Most office furniture is simply too large for my frame. My current set up is a desk that is mounted one inch shorter than standard, a keyboard tray, and a chair that lowers enough so my feet rest on the floor, and the chair does not have arms. Oh, and I have ergonomic wrist pads for my keyboard and mouse. The chair having no arms has been key for me. Even chairs with arm rests that adjust are just too tall for my frame, and I end up hunching my shoulders to put my arms on the arm rest. I also switch mousing hands, which I realize not everyone can do. It really only took a couple of hours to get used to it the first time I did it.

    15. Fikly*

      It’s going to depend on your specific frame and orthopedic issues. I would honestly meet with and get evaluated by an OT and get them to recommend something specific to you.

    16. Lobsterp0t*

      So the one thing I wonder, assuming you do all the PT and do some sort of exercise outside of work, is whether you’ve been to the doctor about it again?

      This is a bit left field but I know two people who described similar complaints and finally ended up diagnosed with ankylosing spondylitis!

      Making sure that you exercise and do some gentle stretching is really important though. I have noticed small changes make the most difference – I pause and do a quick check in to relax my neck, shoulders, tongue, and also do some work on paper or a standing white board instead of my computer. My wife likes a standing desk, as well. And my friend with a hamstring injury liked her kneeling chair (though I’m not sure she can use it now that it’s been officially diagnosed).

    17. only acting normal*

      A lot of recs for lumbar support and sitting up straight (which are absolutely the correct solution for most lower back problems), but you mention your neck and left shoulder.
      If you have upper back problems, then a properly supported reclined position *might* be better for you (it’s so you use your chest muscles to support the weight of your head, taking the strain off your neck and upper back).
      Get physiotherapist advice about your specific issue, not just generic “sit like this at a desk” advice, because it may need adapting for you.

  6. NYC Nonprofit*

    Project management people out there – what systems / tools have you found effective at keeping organized? Especially for those that have a lot of different conflicting tasks.

    I’m in a role where I’m sort of an informal project manager. I provide executive support, manage ad hoc projects, but also coordinate with team members at different levels to manage contracts at different lifecycle stages. I grew into this role so I don’t have access to any of the formal tools or trainings out there – would love to know what everyone else is doing!

    1. nhb*

      I’m not a project manager, but I do have a number of projects to keep up with at any time. I use spreadsheets and physical files with brightly-colored sticky notes on them to keep up with my tasks. A coworker of mine used a white board and had all of her projects listed, and would put the latest update on the project so she could easily see where any of them was at any time. I hope this helps!

      1. Ree*

        Seconding the white board to list all the projects, with a short detail of what they are and a contact(internal and external, if applicable)

    2. RavenclawShorts*

      Microsoft Project is helpful but complicated. Once you get the hang of it though it is a very helpful tool.

      1. peg*

        Trello, seconded.
        If you’re a more physical/visual person (like you prefer a paper notebook over Evernote), you can draw a kanban board on a white board and put your tasks on colored post-its! I can’t work that way to manage my complex projects themselves, but sometimes a physical board helps me wrap my brain around higher level project planning. Am going to follow this comment up with a link which’ll probably go to moderation but hopefully will show up soon.

    4. Future Stay-at-Homesteader*

      We use Basecamp at work, and the people who use it most intensively really love it. I’m on the fence (more of a spreadsheets-upon-spreadsheets kinda girl), but I also don’t have as much to keep organized. It’s definitely intuitive, though, and offers a lot of options and syncs across a lot of platforms.

      2. peg*

        yeah i wouldn’t recommend JIRA or Azure for someone who provides executive support and manages contracts. I use them at work as an agile PM but it’s kind of dependent on our whole team using them. She’s looking more to organize herself, sounds like. :)

      1. Tomato Anonymato*

        I am using Asana too. Once I figured out it doesn’t have to email me about each task which I dislike, and that I can highlight and move a deadline for a whole group of tasks with one click

    8. Kimmybear*

      The one other people will use. Seriously. If it’s for your personal use then see what works for you: MS Projext, Planner, Trevor, Excel templates, DevOps. If you need people above to get reports and updates or people below to provide updates, fit the tool to them. If no one else will use it, it’s not the right tool

    9. Ali A*

      Also an “informal PM” here – and Trello is my go-to. I also use a paid version of Boomerang for Gmail which bounces emails back up to my inbox at a time of my choosing, or if I don’t receive a reply in X days, and let’s me preschedule emails and follow-emails. Couldn’t live without it!

    10. ChemMoose*

      We use Smartsheet mostly at my work. It’s nice because you can access it from anywhere and link between projects. It’s not as powerful as MS Project but it works on all operating systems. In addition, we use Confluence to host our meeting minutes – it’s a decent wiki but can be really confusing and it’s not a great searchable platform. Otherwise it’s all gsuite. In addition, I use a hard-copy planner that is color coded in which types of meetings etc. where I can also take notes and list to do items.

      Finally, I use Timeular to track time on various projects so that I can log my hours for PMI certification, allocate my paycheck appropriately between projects, and also check to see if I’m spending too much time/ too little time on the various projects.

      1. peg*

        Love Smartsheet!! Couldn’t live without it honestly. If I had to go back to using MS Project I’d lose my mind – Smartsheet is everything I need!

        Confluence stinks. I had to use it for 4 years and we finally abandoned it. Good riddance!!

        1. ChemMoose*

          Confluence is a monstrocity really. But if I know where I’m going, I can usually find what I am looking for. It’s easy to link pages together and JIRA tickets too.

          I’m starting a class on MS project today, so hopefully I’ll become a master of the program in a few weeks! The instructor references mpug.com as a great learning site… we’ll see. There is a membership required – $129/year I think. Discounts for students. Free one week trial.

      2. HowIMetYourFather*

        Smartsheet is my go-to as well! Simple to learn and extremely helpful. Plus you can give others access to your spreadsheets without them requiring paid accounts. I’ve found it super useful for everyone to reference, but allow me to be the only one to edit.

    11. Nott the Brave*

      We use Monday.com! It’s got a lot of neat little features that come in handy, and is flexible enough to manage a lot of different types of workflows.

  7. ICantWrite*

    I have a small (not profitable) business – I make jewelry/silversmith.  I know I struggle with branding and content delivery because I don’t think I have an authentic voice/pov when describing my products.  It’s all fear based (what if I sound stupid? maybe I’m not good enough) and I have a difficult time “selling myself.” I can champion other people but I feel like such an impostor.  

    I have a website and I KNOW the product descriptions are all over the place.  Some are factual – size, material, price.  Some are story based, some have bullet points, some don’t. I’d like to use a writer to help me develop my message and give me a template for writing future product descriptions.

    How do I go about doing this?  What do I look for when web searching (freelancing website? what do I look for in the person I hire?) Can anyone give me a general estimate on what I would spend – I don’t want to waste someone’s time if it’s more than I can afford.  If it’s completely out of my reach then I can muddle through but I was hoping you all could give me a starting point.

    2. ThatGirl*

      I agree that you need a copywriter, the good news is, there are plenty of freelance copywriters out there. I would look around and maybe get a few quotes, rates are going to vary, but a copywriter worth their salt should be able to look at your existing site and give you an hourly rate and estimate of how much time it would take.

    3. Looks Like Tomatoes*

      I’m in a similar position– in addition to the copywriter suggestion, can anyone recommend some examples of websites like this done well?

    4. k8isgreat*

      Hi,

      Hope this is appropriate, but I would be interested in working on this project with you. I’ve done some freelance writing in the past, and while I do work a full time day job, I am looking for something to keep me busy in the evenings and make a little extra money. I could take a look at your website and we could talk about your budget. I think this would mostly involve deciding on a format and then updating everything to match that one format. It would really depend on if you want to spend more time (you do the work after the format is decided) or money (I would do the work after the format is decided)? Anyway, if you’re interested email me at 2k8thompson at gmail dot com

    5. Oh No She Di'int*

      You have already correctly identified both your problem and the appropriate remedy: hiring a copywriter.

      In terms of what to look for, I would go about it this way: Scan the web for writing that is in your general area (jewelry/arts/etc.). There will be loads of articles written by freelance writers with an affinity for the subject matter. Start there. Contact those people and ask if they take freelance assignment and if so, do they have a portfolio of writing that you can look at. If not, do they know someone who does take such assignments? I strongly recommend referral as the safest way to find a freelancer.

      At the same time, you might also contact your local writer’s club or writer’s group. Nearly every medium-to-large size city has one. Again, ask around for who takes freelance assignments in your subject matter.

      When reviewing writing or portfolios I would look for someone whose voice sounds like the one you want on your website. I cannot stress that enough. It is a common mistake to think: “Ah, this writer seems competent at writing in style X. I’m sure they could be convinced to write in style Y!” No! Good writers have voices; do not assume that they are interchangeable. Find someone for whom it would not be a stretch to achieve the style and voice you need.

      If at all possible, I’d also screen for subject matter familiarity. This is more to save your own sanity. If you get someone who already knows something about jewelry, you will save endless hours explaining why they can’t say that such-and-such a setting goes with such-and-such gem, or what have you.

      Finally with regard to price, I mean, generally you do get what you pay for. You can find someone you will charge you as little as 5 cents per word. But that person will likely not give you the product that someone who charges $1 per word would give you. If I have to guess, I’d say you should aim for someone in the 10 to 20 cents per word range. Someone else may have a better grasp on that than I do.

      But overall I would say this: I urge you to think of it as an investment in your business. You ask whether you can afford to hire a writer. From what you’ve said here, the better question might be: can you afford not to?

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You know who to look for now with the other comments.

      My only advice is to get quotes and look at your local options. Don’t feel like you’re wasting someone’s time by asking them if it’s a project they are interested in, this is standard practice when hiring any kind of contractor to help you out. It’s business! If it’s not something they can do for a price that you’re able to pay, then you shake hands and part ways. If anyone acts like you’re wasting their time, do not hire them, ever.

    7. ContentWrangler*

      My first job out of college was writing product descriptions for an e-commerce website. I was paid about $15 an hour, worked 8 hour days, and typically completed about 20 product descriptions a day. The descriptions had set stats in bullet points and then a 100 word max description/marketing language (why is this work boot better than all the other work boots). Edits or multiple drafts rarely happened – usually only if a factual inaccuracy was discovered.

      It sounds like this layout could fit your descriptions well. Put the facts up front in simple bullets (people want to be able to skim the size and price) and then take your story based descriptions, create a consistent voice and tone, and highlight the unique aspects of your designs.

      I found the job advertised on Indeed, had a brief phone interview, and completed a single product description as a writing sample. They required me to be in office, but for your job, remote work will give you a lot more flexibility in writers.

      Jewelry/Silversmith sounds a lot more interesting than some of the products I wrote about. It’s definitely a job posting I would notice and be interested in.

      1. Al*

        +1 to this format of product description! It’s the best of both worlds – combining relevant facts with more engaging descriptions. And your copywriter can create a basic template for it so there is consistency amongst your listings.

    8. littlelizard*

      Hire a copywriter! I freelance sometimes, and lots of people are looking for exactly this: website content, product descriptions, other branding stuff. How much it will cost will depend on what exactly you’re looking for (do you want someone to write a bunch of website content for you once, do you want someone who will update your brand awareness channels, are you often needing new product descriptions?). If you do choose to muddle through, consistency can be pretty important. At the very least, decide whether or not you’re using bullet points (I would lean toward not).

    9. Kiwiii*

      I wonder if figuring out where you’d like to come from isn’t first necessary. If you don’t have an authentic voice yourself, what about the people you envision buying your jewelry? What would they want to see when thinking about buying something (likely a combination of the factual and story-based descriptions). Addiontally, it might be worth it to find similar brands and see what their product descriptions are like. Are the really descriptive? only factual? very story-based? somewhere in between?

      A copywriter is a good option, and prices will super vary, but if you don’t know how you’d like to market it, you might just get more of the same confusion from them.

    11. TooTiredToThink*

      I’m a bit into jewelry making and I LOVE checking out what artisans do. But as much of a wordsmith that I am; I always notice the photos first. So first of all, I hope your photos are good. The tone of the photos should match the tone of your jewelry (like if it is fantasy/fantastical based, the pictures should be dreamy/if they are classical pieces – then the pictures should be no-nonsense, etc…). Also, please make sure you are on Facebook and Instagram.

    12. Not So NewReader*

      I think other people have covered what to do very well.
      I just wanted to comment about authentic voice. I have often thought that it’s a cruel irony that we have to sound convinced about ourselves when we actually aren’t so sure.
      My suggestion is to quote your customers and quote your friends. Yes, borrow someone else’s voice until you find your own. So perhaps the easiest point to jump in would be quoting a friend who told you that you were great with color or you have such creative ideas. Then you can move to what your buyers are telling you. “I bought from you because I knew I could get something that was unique, not a copy of what someone else was also wearing.”

      I hope you chuckle. I had one friend who actually asked me for comments. I said that I would be very happy to do that for her. She divided my comments up so it looked like she was quoting more than one person. I did not have a problem with this because she was actually doing the work she said she did in her ad. It wasn’t until I saw her do that, that I realized that a person could separate out comments and use the sentences individually.

    13. ...*

      That’s awesome!! I’m trying my hand at some jewelry creation as well and I’ve done jewelry and accessories copywriting as well. I would totally want to work with you but it would violate my current non Compete LOL! I think this is an easy fix though by hiring a remote freelance copywriter or even just brushing up on a few copywriting classes online. I never get why people need to hire copywriters because I’m like well just write a good description with appropriate brand voice that takes no time at all which is probably how people who actually understand things like math feel about me….. it’s not everybody’s forte and that’s sooo totally ok!

    14. Laura H.*

      I’d also add look at company websites that do jewelry too- they’re usually uniform and include pertinent info but also have descriptions.

      I work seasonally for a jewelry store and have never been unable to find what I was looking for on their website, on or off-season. That comes in handy.

    15. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      When you hire a copywriter, they will probably want a list of keywords to use, since that is a big part of making your product searchable online. Pay attention to making the “voice” of your written descriptions match the style of the photos and the jewelry — for example, if the pieces are boho, the photo should be styled that way with props or background, and the description should use keywords like boho, bohemian, eclectic, hippie…

  8. Anon for this*

    Part of my job is to review documents and reports submitted by other people in my department.  I recently discovered an error in one of these documents that resulted in a minor regulatory violation.  The managers in my department, as well as our branch VP, believe there’s a loophole in the wording of the regulation that would allow us to justify saying that it’s not a violation.  I believe it was a violation of the intent of the regulation, but I’m not a lawyer, so I told my manager I would defer to the legal department’s interpretation.

    Our branch’s legal department looked at the regulation and said (by email) that we did, indeed, violate the regulation and are therefore required to report it to the regulatory agency.  The managers did not like that decision, so they went to the corporate legal department.

    My manager told me verbally that the corporate legal department said we did not violate the regulation.  I asked him to forward their justification to me so I could file it with the document, and he said that they just said this verbally, over the phone.  I asked for the name of the person he talked to so I could get in touch with him or her, and he said he didn’t know because it was another manager who actually talked to the corporate legal department.  The other manager didn’t remember the name of the person but said that they expected us (i.e., me) to write up the justification for the file, as they were just doing us a favor by giving us a second opinion.  He said the branch VP agreed and would stand behind the justification for it not being a violation.  I kept asking for something in writing and my manager finally sent me the investigation of the error, but that was just about how and why the error occurred and had no information about whether or not it was a regulatory violation.

    I am being pressured to write up a justification for not considering this a violation, but nobody will give me anything in writing.  The only thing I have in writing is the email from the branch’s legal department saying that it was a violation.  I don’t want to be paranoid, but I feel like I am being set up to take the fall if the regulatory agency finds out about it and calls it a violation.  I’m puzzled about why management is so desperate to avoid reporting the violation, because it is a very minor violation, not something that we are likely to get fined or penalized for if we report it voluntarily.  It would be much, much worse to get caught covering up a violation.  I could literally go to jail for that.  But I also fear it would be career suicide to report the violation after management, all the way up to the branch VP, told me not to.  Likewise, if I were to report the situation to, say, the company ethics hotline or the ombudsman, it would be pretty obvious it was me, so that could also have bad consequences for my relationship with management.  How do I get out of this without going to jail or torpedoing my career?

    1. Picard*

      Nope. Don’t do it. Reach back out to branch legal folks, say youve been told that corporate legal doesnt agree with their interpretation and can they please review and get back to you.

      1. Ama*

        I like this solution. You can even say you aren’t sure who in corporate legal said this because you are only being told this secondhand. That way if they come back and say “well we’d need to know who said it in order to confirm” you can forward that to your manager, and if they say “well if corporate legal said it is fine, it’s probably fine” SAVE THAT EMAIL just in case this all falls apart later.

        1. MissDisplaced*

          I like this too. And provide your reasonings as you did here.
          >It’s a minor violation.
          >It is unlikely to cause a fine or penalty if reported willingly
          >It would be much worse to not report the violation or try to get out of reporting it

      2. Tea. Earl Grey. Hot.*

        “Reach back out to branch legal folks, say youve been told that corporate legal doesnt agree with their interpretation and can they please review and get back to you.”

        As a Legal Type Person, I agree with this 100%. Throw the fight their way and have them sort out – they need to be communicating with each other.

      3. PennyLane*

        Maybe another option is to write up the justification and tell your manager that you’d like him to sign it since you have not been told this directly by legal and they cannot provide you a contact to confirm this. If he isn’t willing to sign it, I’d let him know you’re just as unwilling to file it without a manager signing off on it as it could come back to hurt you if it ever is found as a violation. And don’t let him fall back on telling you he’d cover you if that happened; you can’t guarantee he’d be around at that point (or that he really would protect you, but I wouldn’t mention that).
        Disclaimer: I have no legal experience

        1. valentine*

          write up the justification
          No. This plays into the setup. Anon for this should not make any moves toward breaking the law. What’s going to help is documentation (either way, though it’s obvious TPTB only have it the one way) from legal.

      4. Lilysparrow*

        Yes, this is a good approach.

        I believe you are 100 percent correct about being set up to take the fall.

        Management probably doesn’t *intend* to set you up, because they are so busy denying everything and pretending it’s fine. But this story about the anonymous legal opinion from corporate, where nobody can remember who they talked to on the phone, reeks to high heaven. Super-super shady.

        If this is the way management operates, they are going to screw up something really serious sooner or later, and there’s going to be some kind of regulatory audit. And even if this particular violation doesn’t get caught, the next one will – and then it’s all going to wind up in your lap.

        I have had situations with bosses who liked to get all hand-wavey with the rules because “it’s going to be fine.” And on occasion, I have had to tell them, “Yes, it’s going to be fine for *you.* I’ll be the one going to jail. So I need to make sure this gets done right.”

        FWIW, that has always worked to make them back off and let me do my job properly.

      5. Free Meerkats*

        I write and enforce regulations that affect major corporations (you’ve likely flown on their airplanes and eaten the food they make) and am subject to a different layer of state and federal regulations myself. In short, I can send people to jail and be sent to jail for violations, not to mention fines that can range into millions of dollars – either way.

        You’ve received direct advice from your legal team and have second-hand information that a different set of lawyers disagrees. You need to take this directly to your local legal team and let them know what you’ve been told, then follow their advice; I expect they’ll be in contact with corporate legal before you’ve hung up the phone.

        And a bit of advice from a regulator; if you report a possible violation that turns out to not be a violation, you’re in the clear. If you don’t report a possible violation that turns out to be a violation, and I find out, you’re in for a world of trouble. If it were one of the places I regulate that did this, at a minimum I would impose a 5 figure fine for failure to report a violation you knew about. Then I’m going to come in and do a full, in-depth inspection and audit of all your records to see what else I can uncover. But before I scheduled the inspection, I’d contact Region 10 EPA criminal division and they’d get involved. I’ve done this with a company that wasn’t reporting violations they knew about; the owner spent time in the federal pen and they are out of business.

        As should be playing out soon, and Nixon and Clinton discovered, it’s not the violation, it’s the cover-up. To protect yourself personally, you need to document the Hell out of your actions. and store that documentation off-site.

        1. Kat in VA*

          My company is the same way with regard to reporting/non-reporting but with ITAR/EXIM violations.

          If you even think something is an ITAR violation, you best get on the horn/over email with Compliance or the FSO (or both) pronto. We’ve all had ITAR training, and we’re taught that when in doubt, ask.

          If it turns out that it is an ITAR violation and you didn’t report it…guess whose name goes on the DHS investigation?

    2. nhb*

      Can you make it clear that you cannot file a justification when the information you’ve received in writing is that it is in fact a violation? Or recommend that since the corporate legal department doesn’t seem to be able to provide you with something in writing, that perhaps you should submit the information to the regulatory agency and have them decide?

      I agree…feels like you’re being set-up. I’d push back on this, but I don’t know your full situation. Will any of the supervisors/VP put it in writing for you? That way then at least you can show that you were going off what they said vs. deciding it on your own.

    3. Urban Coyote*

      You say this, “Why are you desperately avoiding reporting the violation, because it is a very minor violation, not something that we are likely to get fined or penalized for if we report it voluntarily. It would be much, much worse to get caught covering up a violation. Why are you ok with me possibly going to jail over this?”

      If their answer isn’t “We care about you. We will fix this.” Then you move to leave. Their risk management meter is broken while yours is working fine. THis will not be the first or last time this happens.

      You can write your own memo documenting their avoidance and omission, re-ask your manager for the verbal instruction they believe they received from legal and then ask them to sign it. If they don’t sign in, for inclusion into the file, then write, “Manager FIRST and LAST NAME refused to sign in” and file it.

      Then go to legal and let them know what transpired and what you did, documenting it all the way.

      DOCUMENT EVERYTHING. That is all.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        No, you really can’t ask your management ‘why are you avoiding this?’ about regulatory violations. You really have to stay focused on ‘I need written documentation.’

        Anon, you’re doing the right thing, just keep on it. Picard’s advice is best – document ‘My manager told me he’d been told that corp legal said it wasn’t a violation, but couldn’t give me the name of the person who said it since it was second hand.’ and maybe ‘Could you check with corp legal to see if they’ve got a different take?’

        1. Urban Coyote*

          “” No, you really can’t ask your management ‘why are you avoiding this?’ about regulatory violations. You really have to stay focused on ‘I need written documentation.’””

          Why can’t you ask them? They’re humans, not gods. They can be confronted with their own mistakes. Why are they avoiding this? Make them own up to their preference for risk WHILE re-iterating written documentation as a requirement. Anon might find out that they’re avoiding it for a reason that is a pervasive issue affecting other parts of the organization. Or they’re just lazy and don’t think it’s a big deal.

          Stand up and be heard, all the way to the back row. Be the squeaky wheel before the carriage your attached to rolls off the hill.

          1. Yorick*

            You just can’t tell your boss what to do and make them explain themselves, as though they’re a subordinate.

            1. Anon for this*

              Yes, exactly this… I could raise a big stink about this in a lot of different ways, but I specifically want to resolve it without being (or coming across as) a troublemaker.

            2. Not So NewReader*

              I can if my boss says it’s okay for me to face jail time. Gloves off. Ask politely once or twice then go with, “I am unwilling to go to jail over this so what are the next steps here to make this right?”

              I found a question that did work sometimes. “This really isn’t that bad. All we need to do is A and B then it’s fixed. And NO ONE gets in trouble with government. What would you like me to do here?”
              Or I have gone with, “I am not going to sign this as is. I can’t. Do you want to sign it?
              No job is worth going to jail for and no boss is going to force me to give up my personal freedom.

          2. QCI*

            The way you phrased sounds very confrontational. Instead, just flatly say “I refuse to sign off/ send this in without written justification from legal/management”

            1. Derjungerludendorff*

              Or perhaps lay out the potential personal consequences for your managers: “We have no written guarantee from corporate legal that this isn’t a violation, and a written statement from our branch legal that it IS a violation.
              If the regulatory agency finds out and decides that it is a violation, then it looks like we faked approval from corporate legal to cover up a violation, which could at worst land us all in jail.

              If I have a written justification from corporate legal, then they will be held responsible instead as a faulty interpretation of the rules, which seems much less risky to the company and us personally.”

    4. Norm*

      If you’re looking for options, here’s another one: Send an email to yourself documenting the conversation, including the phrase “My manager told me verbally that the corporate legal department said we did not violate the regulation” and name that manager, and include other details that fix the conversation in context.

      This is kind of middle ground that might or might not work. It will depend on how things develop, It’s certainly possible that the branch VP has this right and you can rely on his good-faith assurance that you’re on solid ground. Documenting the conversation could be useful later if someone accuses you of covering up.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        With regulatory violations where one legal team has given a clear (hopefully written) opinion, this is not enough of a response. You really have to go back to branch legal, making it clear that your manager has gotten a different opinion elsewhere, and ask if branch legal can go up the chain to clarify this for you in writing.

        Branch legal needs to know that there’s resistance.

        1. LadyByTheLake*

          As an in-house banking attorney, I completely agree with this. It looks like someone went forum shopping, and when that happens and someone claims that another attorney gave a different opinion, it is almost always because different facts were presented. Go back to your branch legal, tell them that your manager said that they got a different opinion from corporate legal but couldn’t provide details, and let branch legal handle it.

          1. Anon for this*

            Yeah, that’s my suspicion — if someone actually talked to corporate legal (which I’m still not completely sure is true), maybe they didn’t give the full story and phrased it in such a way to make it easy to agree that it wasn’t a violation… “The regulation says X and we did Y, but since the regulation doesn’t explicitly say Z, we’re still good, right?” And maybe corporate legal said, “Yeah, that sounds right, but we’d need to know more if we’re making the decision,” and the manager who talked to them just heard, “Yeah…” and rolled with it.

      2. Consultant Catie*

        Could you also document your conversations with your managers and local legal branch in a follow-up email after you hang up? I do that occasionally anyway after conversations and meetings to keep everyone on the same page, so I think it would still seem ordinary to your managers. It would also hint to your management that you know something is shady and you’re taking steps to make sure you’re not liable. Something simple like, “Just wanted to summarize what we discussed on the phone today at 2pm. You have talked to [corporate legal, local legal, etc.], who said _____. My next steps are to confirm with local legal and then ____. If you have any questions, please let me know.”

    5. AnonAnon*

      I hear you. I work and have worked in this kind of environment for almost 15 years and have had to talk to a regulatory agency and justify things that were done. Your red flag radar is correct.
      I would go to the Ombudsman or Ethics Office. I had to do that once for something at work and I was terrified I would be found out. They were very professional and the situation was taken care of. Do you have any kind of anti-retaliation policy at work? If so, you would be protected.
      In the mean time, document the heck out of this and keep pursuing legal maybe on your own. And in the meantime say your manger you can not ethically write this up without the (accurate) information from corporate legal. If you have that conversation face to face or over the phone, I would send a follow up email re-documenting that conversation so that if this ever goes to legal and they pull the email records, you will be on record not conforming to this.

      2. Anon for this*

        Yes, we have anti-retaliation policies, and there are anti-retaliation regulations in the industry. I have never fully trusted these, though, because it’s very easy to punish someone without making it look like retaliation, and extremely difficult to prove retaliation unless the manager is stupid enough to say it is. For example, if I’m up for a promotion, they could come up with any reason that someone else beat me out for it (e.g., someone else did better in the interview… no way for me to know or prove otherwise since I wasn’t there for the other person’s interview). They could give me “good” instead of “excellent” ratings on my performance reviews so I get a lower raise.

        Part of the problem is that they are not outright telling me to cover up a violation. They are vaguely claiming that someone else told them it’s not a violation, and I don’t even know what to believe. For all I know, nobody ever even talked to the corporate legal department about it. Of course, I also can’t go around making that kind of accusation. I have never known my own manager to be unethical, but he also doesn’t particularly like rocking the boat, so I can see him going along with someone else telling him that corporate legal said it wasn’t a violation.

        1. Derjungerludendorff*

          Not a legal person, but being unable to produce any written evidence or details when they are dealing with something this important seems really suspicious.

          Right now you’re stuck between a rock and a hard place: Either you go along and do something legally shady with nothing to deflect responsibility, or you refuse direct orders from several layers of management and basically accuse them of lying.

          I would try to get this issue out of my lap and hand it to someone with more authority than me, or at least someone who can give definitive and legally provable answers. Going back to the branch legal as mentioned above seems like a good plan.

          And you have a good excuse: your local legal experts were apparently wrong about something important, and should be told this (apparent) mistake happened. If they still disagree with corporate, they need to figure that out before you can act. After all, two teams of legal experts are telling you opposite things on an important decision, can’t act rashly and get the company in big legal trouble.

          And if corporate legal does turn out to agree with local legal, that should trigger the legal departments to start investigating.

          1. Derjungerludendorff*

            TLDR: This is shady, get someone higher/the legal departments involved to clear things up one way or another.

        2. CM*

          I agree with you 100% on all fronts. You can’t trust them to follow the anti-retaliation policies, and there’s something really shady about this phone call. Either it didn’t happen, or someone from legal told them to do something illegal over the phone so that there wouldn’t be a record. Either way, it’s really bad.

          But I like the advice farther up to circle back to your own legal department — the one that told you this was a violation — and ask for clarification, given that you’ve now been told the other department disagrees. It’s not without risks, but it’s probably less risky than reporting them or writing the document.

    6. Kesnit*

      Is there a reason you cannot contact corporate legal yourself? Just say you are following up on what you are told. At a minimum, find out who your management spoke to so you have a name.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        This is the route I would go. If you want to give them the benefit of the doubt, call the legal department and inquire what happened. The legal team is going to have documentation if the conversation occurred and you can contact the representative that said everything was OK. If anything got back to your managers, I would feign that I was just doing everyone a favor since they all (mysteriously) forgot who gave the okay, and you are just doing the legwork to put your file in order.
        But, if the managers are making this all up, the legal team will pounce on it like a puma. Businesses that report to regulatory bodies do not want people who sweep violations under the rug. The OP is absolutely in line with standards that reporting violations is what you do. Most of the time it isn’t a big deal, it’s just part of what we do in the business. But hiding violations is wrong, wrongy, wrong wrong. Frankly, all the managers involved should be fired on the spot if that is actually what happened. If they hide a small violation, then they will (and may already have) hide big violations.

      2. Anon for this*

        I’ve thought about this (and that was why I tried to get a name out of my manager), but I don’t know anyone in corporate legal, or even in branch legal for that matter. I’m not sure how well it would go over if I just cold-called people in the legal department to go over my boss’s and great-grandboss’s heads. I’m a nobody and I have a hard time getting people to respond to even non-controversial inquiries, so there’s a good chance that I wouldn’t get any response out of the legal department. Of course I’ll do what I have to do to not go to jail, but I’d rather not make myself out to be a troublemaker in the process.

        1. san junipero*

          At a bare minimum, I’d think getting in touch with the department would help cover your own ass (document the contact in some way, obviously, if it’s not via email). I think going to them is absolutely your best bet. Isn’t there a general point of contact you could reach out to?

        2. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

          Do you have the contact email from the branch legal department saying it was a violation? There’s your contact point to go back with the “Corporate legal says it’s not” argument.

        3. AnonAnon*

          If you don’t know how to contact corporate legal, that is what the ombudsman or ethics office is for. When I had an issue, they did all the leg work for me and came back with the results contacting the appropriate people. In my case, it went all the was serious enough that it went way up to the head of the department (ex: legal) and it was taken care of. I was called into a brief interview with that person where I could present my evidence (emails, screenshots, etc). It was not intimidating at all and I am very anxious worry-wart :)

          Maybe you take a different approach. Contact Ethics and say you have an ethical dilemma that you feel legal needs to be involved with but you are not sure who to contact and are not getting responses.

        4. Lilysparrow*

          Who signed the opinion? There has to be a name on it somewhere, even if it’s only in the email chain.

          Print everything out and go talk to them in person, don’t email all over the place until you have more information.

    7. M. Albertine*

      Do you have an SOP on violation monitoring and reporting? There should be guidance on resolution and documentation requirements there. From your question, I’m assuming there isn’t, but if you’re dealing with regulatory bodies there should be. Maybe you can push back that way? That there is no clear procedure for documenting and if you were ever audited, that might become a problem.

      1. Anon for this*

        There is an SOP on violation reporting, but it doesn’t cover a situation where it’s not clear whether or not there was a violation. It’s more along the lines of, “If a violation has occurred, here’s what to do.”

        1. M. Albertine*

          I think you can still push back on the grounds of the inadequacy of the SOP. On our last FDA audit, we got dinged for flagging something, but not having the justification documented for not escalating it. In my career, I have found that borrowing the threat of auditors is VERY helpful in making my case to get things done.

    8. Myrin*

      Oh my, that sounds sketchy as heck – I don’t know whether they’re specifically setting you up to deal with a fall but at the very least they seem to be really, really intent on pretending this violation doesn’t exist in the first place which is Not Good.

      As for what to do now: I might be missing something, but what’s stopping you from contacting the corporate legal department yourself? Doesn’t need to be anything confrontational or something that would make them suspect you’re assuming funny business, just a formal, questioning tone along the lines of “Regarding [situation], I was told by Manager 1 and Manager 2 that you found that we didn’t violate any regulations. This was done by phone but in order to file it properly, I’d need a written justification – can I ask you to write something up for me?” or something like that.

      If everything happened like the managers told you, wonderful, then legal will be able to send you a written justification. If not… well. I assume it will stop being your problem very fast.

    9. Anona*

      I’d respond by email with a summary, and send it to the people involved. I’d also forward a copy of the email (or BCC?) to my personal email, just to have backup.

      Something like “There’s been a lot of movement around the recent issues with X regulation. I wanted to confirm that my understanding of the situation is correct. Branch’s legal department indicated that X was a violation. Per my recent conversation with Manager, Manager indicated that she had received verbal confirmation from another manager who spoke with the corporate legal department and confirmed that X regulation was not actually violated, and has indicated that it does not need to be formally reported. Manager has also indicated that Branch VP supports the understanding that the regulation was not violated, and does not need to be reported. I’m happy to type up this for the justification; please let me know if there’s anything that needs to be changed before I do.”

      1. Anon for this*

        The more I have looked into the issue, the more strongly I believe that there was a violation. I asked a couple of respected experts in the field (two consultants we have used for past projects, one of whom used to be in the job I have now) and they both unofficially said it is definitely a violation, and one of them even brought up a second regulation that was indirectly violated in the situation. They are also not legal experts, but experts in my field, and they said they would report it if they were in my shoes. So, I would really not be comfortable typing up a justification. If I’m not reporting this, I want someone other than me to put the explanation in writing.

        1. Anona*

          If I wrote a justification, I’d basically just write the justification that i listed above, making it clear that you’ve been instructed by XYZ people that this is OK. So it’s clear that you’re not justifying it (even though you typed it), it’s your manager. But definitely listen to the other people about ombudsmen/contacting the legal department! This was just to give you a way to CYA if you’re not going to to do that.

        2. CL*

          I suspect their reason for not wanting to report this violation is that it gives the authorities a reason to come in and check everything thoroughly for any other violations. That’s SOP for government oversight agencies (for a good reason, because if there’s one issue, there’s more likely to be more). And it is disruptive to business usually, whether or not anything else is found and whether or not anything in the way of fines or charges result, but them’s the breaks. This is why someone needed to be more careful that there wasn’t a violation in the first place.

          Also, if one of the people who is trying to cover this up is the person responsible for the violation in the first place, they are absolutely not to be trusted as a reliable reporter of what anyone else said about it.

        3. Mr. Shark*

          Based on your additional responses to this, I think I would definitely go to the ethics office or Ombudsman, and say what you’re saying. “I was told that corporate legal indicated this was not a violation, but I do not have anything written and was not given a name. I am not comfortable typing up a justification for this file, which is what I was told to do by my manager. What should I do here?”

          If you trust your manager you can go back to them, and basically say the same thing, “I am not comfortable typing up the justification without something written by corporate to verify this is not a violation,” and your manager would have to take action.

          But this is what Ombuds and the ethics office is for–to go to them and report an issue when your manager does not act after you have reported it to them. There are also laws against retribution on you in any way, if you report this.

        4. Owler*

          If you have to push back on writing up a justification that you don’t believe in, I would use your junior status on this to your advantage. Since you were the one to originally document the issue and bring it to your superiors, it would look (shady, unethical, not appropriate, etc), and you shouldn’t be the one to document the retraction.

          However the issue plays out, I hope you are able to keep your name out of it while getting attention to the issue.

    10. Public Sector Manager*

      If this documentation is something that you’d have to send to a regulatory agency eventually, then it should always be vetted by legal anyway.

      If this is your office’s own internal documentation, there is nothing that prevents you from sending a confirming email to your boss laying out the fact that they instructed you do to X. Also, as other as said, there is nothing that prevents you from reaching out to legal yourself.

    11. Jeffrey Deutsch*

      Consider this: Once you give in to something like this, management now has a blackmail hold on you. The illegal demands are likely to escalate and lock you in — good luck blowing the whistle down the road after having assisted in a cover-up.

      Sure it’s a minor violation — the thin edge of the wedge. The camel’s nose in the tent, if you will.

      Reminds me of a case I read about many years ago. An agency for teenage girl models offered them the “opportunity” to do bikini shots. Extra money for them…and their parents wouldn’t find out.

      Then it turned into nude shots…and ended up hard-core porn.

  9. New Manager, Who dis?*

    Any tips for a new manager joining a high producing team? What are the first things I should do? I am in the final stages of interviewing for a management role in a new company. My direct reports will be highly knowledgeable consultants located in multiple countries. although I have consulted for a few years and feel confident in the other aspects of this role, I am nervous.

    1. IL JimP*

      I would lean into your high performers. As a leader your job isn’t to manage but do what you can to make your reports being able to do their job the most effectively.

      I would even tell them that you’re going to be relying on them and that you value their experience.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        +1 gazillion

        The thing I hate most is managers who come in saying they’ll change things before they understand the processes (ie, we do that because Regulations, no I can’t just stop doing it!). Listening to your top performers, asking what their pain points are, asking what’s been tried in the past to fix it… these will get your team on your side, and will help if you do need them to change or put in special efforts.

        1. New Manager, Who dis?*

          Same! I have made a list of everything I hated about previous managers so I dont accidentally become like them. Ant that is on the top of my list.

      2. New Manager, Who dis?*

        Thank you! Any Tips for managing a global team or would you say its exactly the same with virtual check ins?

        1. International Holding, Unlimited*

          There’s lots of ways and cadences to stay in touch with your team members – ask them what they prefer. Phone, video call, email, task boards; daily, weekly, monthly. Obviously, set whatever boundaries you need (someone can’t ask for a once-yearly checkin and never speak with you outside of that), but within reason, try and work with their preferences.

          1. IL JimP*

            I agree with all of this, although I lean heavily on video calls because I seem to get better engagement in 1-on-1 conversations and during team meetings. People tend to drift on phone calls lol

    2. nhb*

      I’m not a manager, but I’ve had a number of new managers over the years, and one thing I’d recommend to do quickly is to get to know the team. What each of them likes/dislikes about their work, what their strengths and weaknesses are. Keep a log of this information if you can’t remember it all. Find out if there are any ongoing complaints amongst the team. Show them that you are there to support them in their jobs vs. showing that they are there to make you look good. I hope that makes sense, and the “you” is generic for whoever is in the manager’s position.

      1. theoneoverthere*

        Yes, get to know you team. Know about their work, but also know a little about their personal lives (obviously not too invasive). Ask how their weekend was and where they are going on vacation (if applicable). Its nice to know, management knows I am a person and not some bot that arrives at 8 and leaves at 4.

        Also if you have support staff, don’t forget about them. Treat them kindly, say thank you. make sure your team treats them well, too. If you do team building stuff, don’t forget to include them too.

        1. New Manager, Who dis?*

          This is great! I planned to ask them on their preferred management style so I can customize my leadership (within reason of course).

          1. Federal Middle Manager*

            I’m a little wary of this for two reasons: 1) Unless you’re in an area where everyone is fluent in corporate-speak, people may not be able to usefully articulate their preferred management style; and 2) people often push back against their own weaknesses, so someone may say they hate being micro-managed because they have a history of being micro-managed because they have a history of NEEDING to be micro-managed.

            However, there are lots of other ways to get at this same info, you’ll be able to figure out pretty quickly preferred communication methods, who speaks up in meetings versus who brings you their good ideas one-on-one, etc. Best of luck!

      2. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

        I agree on this. Be sure to meet each team member individually (phone or video conference if face-to-face is not possible) and ask a lot of questions at first. Don’t assume that you know anything about any of them, even if your boss or predecessor has given you a rundown. Be wary of the person who wants to immediately be your right-hand person or tell you ALL about problems (personal or job-related) because sometimes they’re the problem.

        1. New Manager, Who dis?*

          |Be wary of the person who wants to immediately be your right-hand person or tell you ALL about problems |(personal or job-related) because sometimes they’re the problem.

          This is the real gem! I have seen this happen so many times, I never considered this from the other side of the curtain.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      This is going to sound simplistic. Read their resumes, read their files and find out what they have done so far in their professional life and at work.
      I worked with a guy who had experience in X. Suddenly we needed a person to do X. My bosses went all over creation looking for someone who could do X. My cohort would not tell the bosses he could do X. Weeks turned into months of finding someone to do X.
      While I don’t agree with what my coworker did, I do understand that his point did have some merit. The bosses had no idea what our backgrounds were. They never looked. We worked with them for ten years and they never looked. When I went to leave I mentioned I had Y experience. The bosses were shocked. They did not know that either. (Y experience had no bearing on my work at that place.)

      For me, I landed on this conclusion, “If Cohort won’t tell them that he does X and just turns this whole thing into a head game then maybe he should not be doing X anyway. That’s not playing a fair game and is showing poor judgement. Maybe this is all for the best that someone else did X, which required good judgement. It was absolutely critical.” So I never said anything to the boss and I told my cohort he was acting foolishly, “Either you want the job or not, period. Who needs all this avoidable drama???” And I told him to stop telling me about it, he was making his own problem. If it were me, I would have just gone in and said to the boss, “You’ve never looked at my resume or file have you?”
      They ended up hiring someone to do X and that person was a Hot Mess. But, hey, he could do X.
      Know your people, get a good handle on their talents. experiences, education, training and other credentials.

  10. Second Jobs/ Side Hustles/ Passive Income/ etc.*

    I have been contemplating some kind of side business or just taking on a part time job somewhere but I’m having a hard time deciding if it’s worth it. I would prefer to invest in something but I don’t feel like I have enough I would be willing to put in (maybe $10-$20k for the right opportunity). And… I just don’t feel entrepreneurial enough.

    For those of you who have mastered side hustles and specifically passive income through investing in something or setting up a side business-How much time/ effort / money did it take? How long before it became profitable? If there were any times you thought about quitting before it became profitable, how did you motivate yourself to stay?

      1. Second Jobs/ Side Hustles/ Passive Income/ etc.*

        I think in this day and age, you have to have money coming in from multiple sources to achieve true financial independence. I would be willing to consider gig work if it allowed me to invest more traditionally in the stock market and that ultimately was the best solution, but I would prefer other multiple options.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          Passive income that takes no extra work = stock market index funds, *maaaybe* bonds in a year or two. Other incomes like house flipping or landlording take work, and / or paying someone else to do that work for you, cutting into returns.

          You’re missing some questions here, too, like ‘how did you find your side hustle’ – turning something you enjoy doing into money will be a lot easier than doing something you don’t.

          My husband’s got his own business. It took about a year to be profitable, at about 20 hrs / week. He kept going because he didn’t like the alternative, and he could see the solid things that his income brought. We pay the bills / save for retirement / college with my income, but special trips and experiences for the kid are mostly from his income.

          1. Sloan Kittering*

            Yes, this. A LOT of people start a side hustle because it’s something they love to do – an artistic venture, a creative outlet, whatever – and they would love to do it full time but aren’t sure the market will allow it. They plug along for a few years watching the numbers and waiting to see if they can make that a full time job. Some do, some don’t (ok, probably most don’t). But maybe they add creativity/excitement to the worker’s life and resolve their curiosity about “what might have been.” You’re asking a very different question so you’ll have to watch the responses carefully to filter out this type of side hustle if your real goal is diverse income.

    2. Drogon's sister*

      I don’t have any personal experience but when I’ve expressed a desire to have more than one income stream to others, someone recommended The Side Hustle Show podcast. If you’re a podcast person, it may be worth checking out and seeing if any of the episode topics would be of interest. Best of luck!

    3. AndersonDarling*

      For 8 years, I worked PT at a spa. Two evenings a week and on Saturdays. I made an extra $200-$500 a month, and it was at a time where that made ends meet. I would have no problem picking up a PT again, but I would make sure it was something I really enjoyed doing. I’d have no problem working at an Aveda store, or a Bath & Body Works over the holiday season. Employee Discounts!!
      It’s hard to get started with PT work because it completely changes your schedule. But once I got used to it, it felt like two jobs was just the same as one job.

      1. Liz*

        I worked PT in retail for just under 10 years. a couple evenings a week, Saturdays, and sometimes more around the holidays etc. I got into the groove, but then didn’t need the extra $$ and had some other things going on so it wouldn’t have worked out trying to do it all. At this point, i couldn’t go back. BTDT.

        what i do do is sell online. Started wth my own clothes, bags etc. and branched out to thrifting to resell. I love it. i make a decent amount, enough to pay for extras and save, but if i don’t feel like doing anything with it, i don’t have to.

    4. Kiwiii*

      I mean, if you do an index fund or something, $10-20k is plenty to invest in a thing and the sooner the better. As for the platform, check out what NerdWallet or other investment reviewing companies are saying about them/the fees? There are some app-based ones that are really cheap and take a flat fee rather than a percentage.

      1. Second Jobs/ Side Hustles/ Passive Income/ etc.*

        The thing is, I already have index funds… But I don’t feel like they are bringing me the multiple income streams I need for true financial security. I’m totally willing to put in the work on something else, IF I knew the right way to evaluate them. That’s my main issue….

        Maybe I asked the wrong question… If you have 10-20 hours a week you are willing to put in and/or $10-$20k, how do you best decide where to invest your energy or money for additional income opportunities?

        1. LawBee*

          Well, a side hustle is by definition a part-time job, really. So go get a part time job and throw every penny you make there into your index funds. If your goal is to get more money coming in, an additional paycheck will do that. But if you want passive income (aka money coming in that you don’t actually have to do to much work for), then your index funds are already in place.

          And get a financial advisor to help you figure out what your goals are and how to achieve them. You don’t NEED multiple income streams if the ones you have already are working.

    5. M. Albertine*

      Do you have any local Angel Investor groups? I think the requirements to join are varied, but it might be a good opportunity to join forces with other like-minded individuals and learn some things in the process.

    6. Ali A*

      Side hustle has to be something you absolutely enjoy, or any financial independence you may achieve will not outweigh the emotional and physical burden the extra hours/commitment bring.

    7. theletter*

      if you don’t have a 4o1k or Roth IRA, you should set that up immediately. Compound interest determines the size of your retirement yacht.

      If you have that settled, just putting extra cash you have into the stock market is always a good idea, assuming you can leave it in there long enough to manage the ups and downs of the market. It’s not a bad idea to just put that cash into something very reliable (like a big tech firm) while you research other investment opportunities.

      There’s a lot of side hustles you can do that don’t require much investment at all. Babysitting and pet sitting is just a matter of your time. If you’d rather sit at home on a saturday, you could be making money sitting at some other person’s home while they go out. I’ve had babysitting gigs that started late, the baby stayed asleep, I seriously wondered if there even was a baby (I checked, there was a baby) . .. . still got paid, baby!

      I hear stories of writers who’ve been able to set up some passive income with online platforms like Amazon, but I hear it’s pretty competitive.

    8. nicotene*

      I think if I had a bunch of extra money, I might look at real estate, like leasing property for businesses. In my area (DC) it seems like it’s just going nuts. I might stay away from rental housing or maybe that appeals to you but it seems like there’s a lot to be made there.

    9. AccountantWendy*

      You could look into Lending Tree or Lending Club or similar. You out in capital, they lend it out, you collect a return.

    10. Consultant Catie*

      I’ve recently started thinking about this – I’ve started microinvesting with Acorns, putting $15-$20/week into a moderately aggressive portfolio. Once that hits ~$2k I think I will pull it out and invest it somewhere real, and continue trading up that investment until/through retirement. Currently my portfolio is only up about 2%, but that’s still more than it would have grown sitting in my savings account so I see it as a win.

  11. How to be more charitable towards a new employee*

    I’m a second year associate at a law firm, training a first year, who started about ~4 weeks ago. In these past few weeks, I have learned that I am awful at training! I get way too frustrated with him when he makes mistakes. I get that a lot of the mistakes he makes are either because it’s a new concept to him, or something I or the partner forgot to explain because it’s second nature to us. But for every two of those mistakes, there’s one that is due to him being sloppy or not reading instructions, and that’s when I want to lose it. Any advice on not letting those minority of mistakes get to me?

    2. Lyys*

      I would keep in mind that he is probably equally as frustrated. If I started a new job and 2/3 of my mistakes were due to my trainers neglecting to tell me something important I’d be losing my everloving mind. I’d also be suspicious that any mistake I made that was purely my mistake might not actually be my responsibility. I’m hurting for this guy right now because this is pretty much my nightmare scenario. I’d start by creating standardized training materials and sitting down with this guy and explaining that this has been frustrating on both ends but now that you have these materials everyone is going forward with a clean slate.

      1. Mbarr*

        Agreed with this!

        Maybe having him start documenting everything he’s learning in a User Manual or Standard Operating Procedures so that:
        A. He has a set of written instructions that he can follow line by line. You can work with him to update the instructions when you realize something was forgotten.
        B. When you go through this with another new hire, you don’t have to start from scratch and are less liable to forget things

        1. Dusty Bunny*

          Mbarr – you took the words right off my keyboard! Document the process, but let the first year fill in to the granular level.

          My first thought was – Just because you know how to do something, it does not mean you can effectively and efficiently teach it to someone else. (Flash backs to my father helping me with algebra homework)

          1. Paquita*

            Yes! My father was an electrical engineer and I learned to NEVER ask him for math help. Also I can’t teach/train, I have no patience.

      2. littlelizard*

        Yes, this! Training that isn’t fully planned and thought-out can be very frustrating. If you can use some of your non-training time to write things down for training, it might help the whole thing go smoother.

    3. M. Albertine*

      How about using this process to develop a training manual/topic checklist/process documentation? If you are working together on something that’s going to be super-helpful for training the next new person, it will help the both of you put mistakes in the correct box as well as put you both on the same “team” toward process improvement, both for the new person and for the firm as a whole.

    4. ACDC*

      I think if you can remind yourself that at one point you were him will help a lot. There was a point when you were also making similar mistakes and it’s not reasonable to expect him to follow a process correctly when it was never explained to him. As for things related to not reading instructions carefully, that is an easy conversation to have where you just let him know that next time reading the instructions more carefully will be better for everyone involved. You also need to make sure you are approachable enough that he will come to you with questions along the way. If he feels like he’ll get chewed out or snapped at every time he has a questions, he won’t ask the question, and the final product won’t be what anyone wants.

      2. Jane of all Trades*

        I think you need to consider that at 1 year and 1 month, you’re probably not a great teacher right now (because that takes experience) and that you were in his shoes just a year ago. So before you instruct him, come up with a full plan of what that will look like. Do you have a 100% grasp of the project? Have you thought through every step of what you’re asking him to do? Have you communicated every expectation? You can certainly ask him to be more diligent, but do be open to the possibility that you’re still learning the job and are learning how to manage.

    5. LGC*

      So I have a question for you that might help provide the answer: what’s annoying about those situations? Do you expect him to know better? Does he make a lot of those kinds of mistakes, even though it’s not the majority by volume? Is he a slow learner overall? Are there other issues with him?

      And for your part, do you have any “baggage?” Are you a fast learner relative to him? Are you a perfectionist? Does he annoy you outside of his mistakes?

      I’m asking because thinking of myself, a lot of the time when I’m annoyed by someone’s specific mistakes, there’s something deeper going on. For example, I get a little annoyed by one of my employees who never stacks the boxes for our project correctly (for whatever reason, he stacks the last few in reverse order). But…he doesn’t take feedback well in general, and I’ll admit that I didn’t handle him well at first myself. (Basically, I was overly critical of him at first, and while I’ve backed off and make sure to give him compliments and let him know I appreciate his work, he still stonewalls me and sulks when I do give him critical feedback.)

      In this case, my annoyance is REALLY caused by me being a bad boss at first AND that he’s a bit unprofessional. (Well, more than a bit. But it’s a hazard of my job. And yes, we ARE working on this.)

      1. International Holding, Unlimited*

        So much this. What else is going on?

        One thing that I always tried to keep in mind is that very few people are doing the wrong thing out of malice. It’s either because they don’t know better (you didn’t tell them, it’s not documented anywhere, or you did tell them but they forgot and don’t have anything to reference), or the wrong thing is dramatically easier, or the wrong thing *is* actually documented somewhere and they were following instructions.

        Four weeks is still incredibly new and this person is trying to absorb a huge amount of info. Especially if you haven’t been very organized and are showing your frustration, they’re frustrated in turn (because of the disorganization) and probably scared that they’re just going to get canned. That’s going to make anybody’s work suffer. Find some empathy, let go of as much frustration as possible, and express the rest of it to someone else. For your trainee, you’re calm, friendly, helpful, and willing to repeat yourself – to a reasonable degree, and especially while you work on documentation.

        Two things that will really help are praise for successes and explanations. Feeling like your successes are recognized and valued is huge for combating some of the frustration. I wouldn’t give false praise, but find something(s) you’re genuinely pleased with and start remarking on that. Explanations also really help (especially when someone’s been told the right thing and forgotten) because it helps provide a framework to hang the rest of the knowledge on. Sometimes it’s “this is the process and here’s why we need to do it that way,” sometimes it’s “this is the process and I know it seems weird but this is the background of how it evolved/where it came from” – either one will give them more context and help guide them away from the wrong action.

        Start having this person document the stuff you’re training them on. You’ll need to have a more experienced person review it for accuracy or to provide more context, but the newbie perspective is actually really helpful because they will remember to include elements that you, with more experience, just do without thought. This will also help with forgetting, because they will have somewhere to reference (rather than just relying on memory).

        If the wrong thing is dramatically easier than the right thing, work on making the right thing easier, or on signposting that the wrong thing is wrong. This is going to be very dependent on the work, but the easier you can make it do to the job right (in terms of clarity, speed, number of clicks, information bottlenecks) the more it will get done right.

        As an illustration, my old company deployed a new internal program for building travel itineraries. In order to send a customer’s itinerary right, the initial version was something like twenty clicks and you got dropped back at the starting point halfway through for no good reason. The fast way just cut off that whole first loop where you organized the itinerary, and took about 5 clicks. I’ll let you guess how many people on our team took the shortcut and sent disorganized itineraries out to clients.

        We asked IT to route directly from the itinerary organizer straight to the invoice sender, and compliance jumped dramatically. Even though it was still a few clicks longer, the fact that you could now go from point A to B to C, rather than Point A to B, click OK and wind back up at A, then click over to C – it made all the difference.

      3. LGC*

        …by one question I mean SEVERAL. (I’m just as fun IRL.)

        I forgot to mention a huge thing – OP, you mentioned you were “awful at training!”, and that’s a really negative way to think about it. You’re new yourself, as noted, and you’re not handling this the best…but I don’t know if you can just say you’re bad at training people, or that it’s all your “fault”. (You might be bad at training this guy, but that’s not the same thing.)

        Definitely see where you could improve your training, but also – don’t put yourself down because that will make things worse. I’m sure you’re not THAT bad.

    6. LALAs*

      I use to train new attorneys, so I feel you. That being said, you are a second year associate – can you remember what you didn’t know when you started? The farther you go from being new the harder it is to remember the basics. Using this experience to write up a training manual is a great idea. It doesn’t have to be a big formal thing – just a word document: To run X report, go to Q, type in DJ, save in B folder, send to K(position name not person name), etc. If a client comes in with Y type of case, your first step is to A, then B, then C.

      In addition to helping you with future associates, you can use it when you are asking for a raise or promotion. Of course you can ask the newbie to slow down, read instructions, re-read documents before they turn them in (or whatever the sloppiness is). But you will lose a lot of credibility if you don’t own that some of the mistakes are because they are not being given the information they need.

      1. Federal Middle Manager*

        Yeah, as a second year you feel like you have VAST experience compared to the guy with 4 weeks, but really you have about a year on him, which is next to nothing in the trajectory of a career. Be generous. Take a deep breath and hope someone will be as generous with you the next time you are learning some new practice area.

    7. Coverage Associate*

      My advice would be to talk about any assignment before you give it to him. Don’t just email instructions.

      Give him edits in redline by email, then when he’s reviewed them alone, have a calm, short chat about how his work could have been better. Be as specific as possible.

    8. LawBee*

      Is there anything more terrifying than being a month into your job as a first year associate at a law firm? Yes, obviously, but probably not for him! So when you get something back with those sloppy mistakes (like bad case citation or misreading the memo requirements) just send it back to him with a brief note on the error itself (“please review the memo requirements, you’ve missed the boat here” or “Please review your citation formats, you can get a copy of the Blue Book from the firm library”), check it off your list, and go get a cup of coffee.

      I’m serious about that one. Leave your desk and office and take a stroll down to the kitchen or go wash your hands in the bathroom. Physically remove yourself from the space where you are on the verge of losing it, expend a little of that energy, and then go back to your desk. This also lets you go into your email later to see if this is really a pattern that needs addressing (this dude just does not know how to blue book, omg [neither do I, thank god I have a paralegal who was on Law Review]).

    9. Not So NewReader*

      I hate saying this but your frustration maybe adding to his tenseness and then he makes more mistakes.

      I do think that you are too close in seniority to him and that is part of the problem. Just my opinion and not helpful EXCEPT for the fact where you say you are awful at training. You might be okay at training but it is too soon to tell and you are probably jumping the gun when you say that. Give yourself some space here. Ironically by letting up on yourself, you may also find it easier to work with the trainee.

      On what you have here you have several types of mistakes that you have identified. I don’t think you realize how huge this is, you are doing great to be able to see things by groups.

      New Concept mistake. I am not in law so I am not sure what the correct answer is but you can talk to him about mentioning to you more often when a concept is unfamiliar to him. And you can do spot checks such as, “This case involves XYZ concept. Are you familiar with that, if not we can go over it.”

      You forgot to explain. Okay this one I can WELL relate to. How many times did I forget to explain? I can’t count that high. What I did was I apologized for forgetting. From what I saw it did help to ease tension/concern when I owned my mistake. People who are less tense make less mistakes. I worked at remembering stuff better. So what is your plan to help yourself forget less often?

      Sloppiness. Pass the mistake back to him and tell him not to hand you anything he has not checked and then checked again.

      Not reading instructions. Do a double check and just make sure that the problem is NOT misunderstanding the instructions. From what friends tell me, law can be a real brain drain. At the end of the day 2 plus 2 equals 5 and they cannot see the error. (Bonus points to those who caught that sentence!) Perhaps ask him if he had trouble with the instructions. When he says no, which he might do, then point out the errors and send him back to rework it. In my jobs I had that luxury that most of the time I could send people back to redo bad work. IF you find that you do not have time to make him rework it then consider padding your timelines so there is additional space for him to rework stuff.

      Now this one is for you personally: training is EXHAUSTING. People have endless ways of botching a job. Just when you think you have seen everything the latest trainee will show you a new and different way to botch a job.

      1) Get extra rest. A rested person is less apt to lose it over some small potatoes.
      2) Deliberately look for the things the trainee did right. You don’t have to praise them like they are 5 years old. You do have to say, “You got this part. You nailed it.” or “This over here is good, keep doing things this way.”
      3) If possible take them with you to do something new, or let them see inside your thought process such as how you break down New Task into doable parts.
      4) Use stories to teach. Most people love stories and will follow along quite willingly. They will remember your story of what you did in a tight situation much longer than if you just give them instructions on how to handle the situation.
      5) Let the trainees teach you how to teach. So far I guess you have this one person, so that does make it tricky. Watch his questions. If you can find patterns in his questions, those patterns may indicate something that you are routinely missing/not explaining well/ or other problem. I have trained a lot of people. When two or three people asked me the same question, I realized I needed to change my explanation to anticipate the particular question. The people may be random people but the questions have patterns. When two or more people ask the same question that is happening for a reason.
      6)Breathe. The world will not stop revolving if he makes a mistake. It’s his mistake, refuse to wear his frustration for him.

    10. CM*

      People get frustrated when something turns out differently than they were expecting, or differently than they wanted it to. One way to try to be less frustrated in this case is to adjust your expectations about new employees. A lot of the time, I think we all kind of hope that people will hit the ground running and immediately lift some of the burden off of us, and then we discover that, for the first few weeks or months, they’re sometimes MORE of a burden because now we have to train them and check their work in addition to doing everything else.

      It’s great if you get someone who helps you right away, but, most of the time people take a while to get settled. So, if you adjust your expectation so that you no longer expect him to be a real coworker for the first couple of months and instead expect that he’s going to be much less productive and much more dependent than you’d normally want him to be, it might be less frustrating.

      I used to train my new coworkers in a completely different field than law and, FWIW, the first month they were basically not helpful. The second month, they knew enough to be more independent, but they kept making mistakes because they didn’t know everything. The third month, they started to be a real teammate and do stuff on their own without any issues.

  12. Future Stay-at-Homesteader*

    Today is (almost) my last day of work! I’m leaving to stay home with my baby (who is actually now my toddler). I’m a little bit scared but mostly just super excited. I have no idea how I’m going to feel come next week, and especially no idea how I’m going to feel in five years or so or whenever it’s time to return to the workforce, but…it’s so weird to contemplate not having a 9-5 job for the first time in over a decade. I don’t even really have a question or a topic, I just…I don’t even know! I just don’t know anything and it’s freeing and exciting and also terrifying but also I’m happy!!?!

    2. Mama Bear*

      ENJOY! I left a FT job for a while when my kid was 18 months. Not working, freelancing and/or working PT got us through until kid was in 1st grade when I returned to FT work for various reasons. Things I do suggest are to remember to get out of the house without the kid sometimes, and to have very clear expectations with your partner re: household things, childcare, personal spending money, etc. When I spent all day chasing after a kid who was potty training and then got quizzed about “what did you do all day?” my head nearly exploded. But other than that I really enjoyed being home and am grateful for my overall supportive spouse.

      1. Future Stay-at-Homesteader*

        The advice is much appreciated! I’m definitely nervous about how this is going to play out, relationship-wise. We’ve talked about it a lot, so now all that’s left is to jump in and see how it actually goes!

    4. Kiwiii*

      I’m so glad you’re excited!! My sister recently quit her job to have baby time and the thing she found most helpful was to still give herself some sort of schedule, even if it was a walk with the baby every morning at 9AM and then play dates tuesday and thursday afternoons.

      1. Future Stay-at-Homesteader*

        Yes, I’m working on this! Going to spend the next month checking out all the local play groups and libraries. :-) Thank you!

        1. Mama Bear*

          I am still friends with some of the parents I met at the library or via a playgroup Meet Up, and our kids are in middle school. Great way to meet likeminded people.

    6. OhBehave*

      YAY! You will not regret this decision. It’s gonna be so fun and so hard some days.
      You’ve already got a plan to get out with your baby. Be purposeful about your days. The days will fly past and before you know it, kiddos are in school. Teach them how to play by themselves. This is huge and fosters imagination. If you are a joiner, Google moms groups in your area. Some groups are organized with speakers and sitters while others are informal. You can find your tribe here. Nothing better than PBJ and play dates.
      Make sure to have adult time. Have fun and be kind to yourself.

    7. Lilysparrow*

      Congratulations!

      I really liked “Heaven on Earth” by Sharifa Oppenheimer for ideas about building a child-paced but orderly rhythm to our days, with lots of emphasis on exploring nature and finding learning opportunities built into normal household tasks (like making food or tidying up).

      It’s a precious time.

        1. Wren F*

          Nature centers also have awesome programs for kiddos—generally starting around the 2yo stage.

          Also, are you someone who enjoys crafts? Some of my son’s happiest moments were when we’d sit down together with those watercolor sets (you know, the ones in a plastic case that have a brush and are non-toxic) and paint. Often on the same paper! He loved it.

          I also liked “The Toddler’s Busy Book” and “The Preschooler’s Busy Book.” These contain tons of activities (games, crafts, physical things, nature stuff) and we did a lot of them. These books gave us fun things out of the ordinary to add to our days that I wouldn’t necessarily have thought of on my own.

          Enjoy! We have very happy memories from those years (our boy is a senior this year!).

    8. Hamburke*

      Congratulations! I loved being home with my kids and went back when my youngest was heading to middle school (albeit, part time and in a different industry).

      I left full time employment when my first was born (gov job in an already lowpaying industry = not enough to pay for daycare). I was shocked at how both busy and bored I was. It got better as I found playgroups and activities to do with my little one and made plans with other adults. But those first few months made me question if I made the right choice for my mental health (and that’s coming from government where it’s not fast-paced).

    9. Anonny*

      I’m home with a baby now. Agreed on a routine and getting out. One thing that’s been great is the joining the local YMCA. They offer free daycare for a couple of hours everyday so I can get a workout and shower. They also can provide financial assistance for the membership if needed when you’re down to one income.

  13. So so anon*

    I just wanted to thank the people who recommended “Limbo: Blue-Collar Roots, White-Collar Dreams.” It was fascinating. I would have liked more of a spectrum of the middle class as I think this skewed toward the upper class, but I kept on having revelations as I read it.

    1. Future Stay-at-Homesteader*

      Oooh thanks for mentioning this! I’ve been wanting to read it but forgot to write it down anywhere.

    3. The Beagle Has Landed*

      I read it, too, after the recommendation. It made so much sense to me, because it’s about me. Blue collar parents, living in a white collar world.

  14. Bee's Knees*

    Removed because this turned into a mess and I don’t have time to sort through or fully moderate the responses. Sorry, OP! – Alison

  15. Overtime Ripoff*

    Earlier this week we were notified that we are “moving into a cycle of intense expense management”, and effective immediately management will not be approving any overtime. My department has a weekly on-call rotation, where the person on call takes support calls at home that come in after hours. We’ve been told that the extra hours we accumulate taking these calls will be comped as time off the following week in lieu of overtime pay. We also rotate a four-hour Saturday shift which will be comped the same way. Obviously we all know this is not legal. I’ve already asked my manager to verify/clarify via email, which she has, so I have it in writing that this is what they intend to do. Where do I go from here?

    1. Picard*

      Your states DOL once it actually happens. (I dont think you can do much until they violate – plans to violate dont count)

    2. Psyche*

      If you have a union, you can take it to them. If not, depending on how much overtime pay is at stake, you could consult an employment lawyer.

    3. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I think you should see how your state calculates overtime – some are over 40 hours in one week, some are 80 hours in two weeks, and in CA it’s anything over 8 hours/day. If your comp time comes in the same defined workweek as the extra hours, that should be within the law.

      1. Natalie*

        some are 80 hours in two weeks

        Federal law uses single work week basis in most situations and is the rule at play here, unless state laws are more generous to the employee. Overtime Ripoff’s employer is virtually guaranteed to be engaging in what the court’s consider interstate commerce, and thus subject to FLSA.

      2. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

        If I recall correctly, my state’s rule is 40 hours per pay week before you become eligible for overtime. When I worked a job that required rotating Saturday coverage (it worked out to about once a month per person), we would get one weekday off in the following week. This was because our pay week was considered to run from Saturday through Friday (mostly because the company wanted to end the pay week on Friday).

        So, I’d not only check your state’s rules, but also when your company considers one pay week/pay period to be, since there is no obligation for it to line up with anything on the calendar.

    4. AndersonDarling*

      The big problem is that this will create a snowball of under-staffing. All the comp time from the first week will be used in the second week, so the second week will be understaffed. The people that stepped up that week will use their comp time in the third week. Comp time from the first, second, and third weeks will all be used in the fourth week? Did anyone calculate the overtime and see if this is even possible in a comp time scenario? Eventually there will be weeks where everyone needs to use up their comp time and no one will be answering phones.
      In the meantime, make sure the comp time will be recorded in payroll, and not on some random spreadsheet that can mysteriously disappear if there is an investigation.

    5. halfwolf*

      you said you asked your manager to clarify – did you mention that this isn’t legal? if not, that might be a good step to take, provided you don’t think it will get you in trouble (if you think this will risk your job, obviously just report them to the DOL when they start this practice. employers who will fire you for politely pointing out that they’re breaking the law don’t get the benefit of prior warnings). alison has given language like this to use before; something to the effect of “as i’m sure you know, this is actually against federal labor law and we could get in a lot of trouble for this!” note, as alison has mentioned, the use of “we” and “as i’m sure you know” to make it less adversarial and more like of course they’ll want to rectify this obvious mistake. if that still doesn’t work, then the DOL is definitely your next step.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Actually, normally I say assume they *don’t* know — “as I’m sure you know” makes it sound like they’re intentionally breaking the law, which is more adversarial. In this case they probably are, but in most situations I’d recommend something more like, “Actually, we’re required by law to blah blah.”

    7. Overtime Ripoff*

      I sometimes get the feeling with leadership in this department that employees who point out laws and workers’ rights get stuck with the “not a team player” label, so I wasn’t comfortable mentioning directly to my manager that it isn’t legal, no matter how gently. I decided to forward the email to our HR manager “Beatrice”, whom I have dealt with before, and included this at the top:

      Beatrice,

      Would you mind taking a look at this announcement that was made to the teapot support desk this week? I thought I remembered from the eLearning course on the Fair Labor Standards Act that this isn’t actually legal, so I reviewed the course and I remembered correctly – time worked in excess of 40 hours in a given work week has to be paid as overtime and can’t instead be given as time off the following week. Could you please advise?

      Thanks,
      OT Ripoff

      I don’t think the company as a whole wants to break the law, so I’m hoping this will prompt HR to tap manager on the shoulder and say, “Uhh, you can’t do that.”

      1. just a small town girl*

        That’s great!! I’m a huge fan of how Alison always suggests people phrase it; “this is concerning because it could mean we break the law, and of course I don’t want us to do that!” because the we feels less adversarial and more like you’re concerned about the company getting in trouble and now how it affects you directly.

  16. MsMaryMary*

    I finally put in my two week notice on Monday to move to a new job I’m really excited about. Waiting for everything to be finalized with the offer and the background check almost drove me insane last week! I feel so much better now.

    NewJob does not provide a company cell phone, they expect people to use their own. This is a position with a lot of external client meetings and local travel, so I can expect to use my cell phone a decent amount. I still have the same phone number as I did for my first ever cell phone, many years and several states away. I don’t want to get a new number, but I don’t want to confuse people with an out of state area code. Does anyone have experience setting up a google phone number for work? Would calls from the google number look any different coming in?

    Thanks!

    1. Mama Bear*

      I think that it’s much less of an issue now. Many people keep their phone numbers and long distance isn’t the problem it used to be. I’d just make sure that you have all the relevant numbers on your business card. I don’t even look at the area code anymore.

    2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      Congrats! I have a similar role and have always used my personal cell phone (usually with a monthly stipend from the company). I try to use my desk phone as much as possible for initial calls, and always provide my cell number via email. If I know I’ll be calling someone from my cell I warn them that it’s a “4XX area code”.

      Honestly, I find that with the amount of phone number spoofing these days, people don’t pick up even when they recognize the area code. I always leave a voicemail (which a lot of people don’t listen to) and initiate the conversation and/or follow up via email.

      I’ve never tried a Google number, but I remember an old colleague got IT to set one up for her and it was very complicated to have her outgoing number show the Google number. It might be more complicated than it’s worth!

    3. Jules the 3rd*

      Google numbers do often have an out of state area code, but it really doesn’t matter these days. Since we’ve been able to port numbers across carriers, tons of cell phones are out of state. Google numbers don’t look any different coming in from my experience.

      Use a google # so that when you leave this position, people won’t still be calling your real cell.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        I was able to get a local area code Google number, and I was able to pick out a snazzy number too.
        I don’t know if you can change the settings, but all my google calls went through a robo screening process. The caller is asked to say their name, and then my phone rings to say “George Smith is calling.” So it would be annoying to regular callers.

    4. Kathleen_A*

      I agree with everyone else: I really don’t think the out-of-state area code will confuse anybody at all, at least not anybody who has experience with cell phones (that is, almost everyone). So I think you’re fine.

      A google phone number might not be a bad idea, though, just so you can keep your personal and work calls a bit separated. Or so I hear. I use one number for everything, but I’ve often thought about setting up a google number because I have a company-supplied cell phone, and when I leave here, I think I lose my cell number when I turn in the phone.

    5. Anonymous Phone Caller*

      I wish I had thought to get a Google voice number. (I may still.) Recently, my company moved us to temp offices while our new, larger spaces are built out. Rather than port our phones to the temp space, we have to use our personal cell numbers. Our VoIP office phones will be restored when we move to the permanent space.

      I have been beyond irritated about this. First, they didn’t ask, they assumed it’s okay. Second, they aren’t paying anything towards usage. Third, I do a lot of conference calls and I don’t have a headset (phone is bluetooth only). I asked the company to purchase a wireless headset; no, they don’t provide headsets for personal phones. (No, I’m not buying one; I don’t need a headset at home.)

      Overall, my company is really good to its employees, especially pay and benefits. It’s small, which is why they look for cost savings where they can. I think my main objections are a) a phone should be paid for or reimbursed the same as any other office equipment, b) I work in an industry in which can be subject to BYOD restrictions, which means personal info on my phone can be wiped or viewed.

      I’ve learned to let a lot of things go at work, but personal cell use – it hits all my buttons for some reason. (no pun intended)

      1. Bird Person*

        Can you pick up a cheap pay-as-you-go phone? It would have the same headset issues, but at least you wouldn’t have to worry about the data access issues.

    7. Product Person*

      Get your google phone! I give my cell phone to personal contacts and Google number to work contacts, and the advantage of the Google number is that I don’t miss any calls even when I’m a place with bad cellular connection, as long as there is WiFi.

      There is nothing different with Google number calls; you or your callers won’t be able to tell the difference.

      1. WheezyWeasel*

        You may need to initiate the call from your cell phone via the Google Voice app to have your Google Voice number show as the caller ID. I also recommend logging into the Google Voice website every few months to see what new features they have and to make sure checkboxes aren’t clicked by default when they update the software.

    8. just a small town girl*

      Definitely use a google number, but IIRC google will let you select a local area code when you’re setting up the number. Or at least a local-ish area code, depending on where you are. But I agree with others; out of state area codes aren’t that big of a deal anymore. I work with several people who have far-flung area codes for their cell phones and it isn’t an issue at all since cellphone plans no longer charge for long distance.

  17. What’s with Today, today?*

    I’m a reporter so this is work related.

    Our City hired a new City Prosecutor last night to prosecute municipal court cases. The hired the First Assistant from our county’s District Attorney’s office.

    In your opinion, wouldn’t that be akin to double dipping? Getting paid by City taxpayers to hold municipal court during the workday, while you are simultaneously being paid by the county to be the second in command at the DA’s office seems like double dipping to me. In addition, I’m thinking it’s a conflict of interest to prosecute city cases, where a city defendant (usually traffic & code enforcement tickets) might have more serious pending county cases.

    Opinions and thoughts please as I begin lining out this story…

    2. Alana Smithee*

      Are you sure that they will be paid double? If I heard they hired the First Assistant my thought would be “they were formerly at the District Attorney’s office, and are now the City Prosecutor,” like most job moves, not “They are now the City Prosecutor AND an ADA.” If I move to a new job, I’m not keeping my old one.

      1. What’s with Today, today?*

        I’m 100% positive. She’ll be paid $36,000 per year by the city, and makes about $78k from the county. The new position is in addition to the existing one.

    3. Miss Astoria Platenclear*

      Check with your state’s prosecuting attorneys council, or the state attorney general ‘s office. Some states may allow “part-time” prosecutors.

      1. What’s with Today, today?*

        City prosecutor is definitely a part time job. The issue I’m seeing is that the part time work hours at one position are during the full time hours of the other, and are both tax payer paid.

        1. What’s with Today, today?*

          Traditionally, this job has been held by a local civil attorney. Not one of our prosecutors.

        2. WellRed*

          “The issue I’m seeing is that the part time work hours at one position are during the full time hours of the other, and are both tax payer paid.”

          THIS aspect sounds like the problem. Which I realize is what you asked but it’s clearer here stated this way. (I am also a reporter).

    4. LGC*

      So my question is…what’s the arrangement with the new DA? Is this allowed under ethics laws in your state, and does this have precedent in other well run municipalities?

      From first glance…yeah, this does seem shady. But if the city switches to a night court and it’s common for other assistant DAs elsewhere to be city/town prosecutors, I don’t know if there’s a story there. But I’m not a reporter, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

    5. MissDisplaced*

      It does seem this moves into what is essentially “moonlighting” territory at the very least. The part-time job should not be conducted during the same working hours of the full-time position.

      Now, if both positions were part-time roles, OR the one role was only temporary until someone else is hired to fill it (like for 90 days), I suppose it could be arranged to do both, but you’re saying that is not the case.

      So, yes, it’s double dipping, and there is also a potential conflict of interest.

    6. CL*

      The first thing you need to find out is if this person will, in fact, still be working full time for the County DA’s office. They may be switching them to part time there or getting ready to retire or leave and officials just haven’t announced it yet. There should be no problem with getting an answer to that question, I’d recommend asking the County DA’s office, since they’re the ones who would be (presumably) making the schedule adjustment. You need to ask that specific question, so you don’t get caught with egg on your face if you write an article implying that this person is double-dipping when, in fact, they aren’t.

      You also need to find out what the law is on filling the prosecutor position. The law may state that hiring someone who is simultaneously a county employee is OK or it may be silent on the subject, but you need to find out if any rules or regulations are being violated and how. You probably want to check both city and county law, it could be in violation of one and not the other.

      The other thing I’d look into is what the normal salary is for both positions. If they are taking a pay cut for one or both positions, that might also solve any double-dipping concerns.

    7. AnonJ*

      If one or the other or both are salaried positions, it wouldn’t seem like double dipping to me. When you’re paid a salary, you’re being paid to do the job in whatever hours are required to get it done. As long as this person is getting both jobs done in the way they need to be, I don’t particularly see a problem with them holding both positions.

      I think I might be more concerned about the crossover of taxpayer resources being used. If the prosecutor is doing work for the city while in their county office, using the county’s resources, for instance, that might be a concern.

      As for the conflict of interest concern, the local/state bar rules would guide whether the prosecutor needs to recuse from a case due to a conflict.

    8. Lazy Cat's Mom*

      Maybe there’s a lot of overlap in the jobs. They could be trying to streamline things. For example, are the courts in the same place? Do many cases involve both? In some municipalities, some tasks are handled by local government while others by the county, though I’m thinking more of schools, etc.

    9. Sue*

      This seems very problematic to me. Prosecuting requires a lot more work than the actual court time. There is a lot of paperwork, interviewing witnesses, negotiations, trial prep. It’s not just show up in court.
      I would expect the DA to have rules on outside work as well, as the chance for conflicts could be there and often if a deputy is conflicted, the whole office might be as well.
      You need to find out what the DA has agreed to on hours/salary/potential conflicts and what the city was told to have them agree to this. With what you’ve said, it sounds bad but there may be more to the story…

  18. Anon anon anon*

    How to know you’ve read too much Ask a Manager…

    I’m a librarian, and I was doing an instruction session today for first-year college students, and when explaining why google is not the greatest starting point because of the vetting you have to do for everything you find, I used the example of finding a page by the National Association of Llama Groomers.

    So then you have to look up the NALG, and then you find information that they’re a splinter group of the North American Association of Llama Groomers, and they split over proper hoof care, and the NALG is considered radical and not scientifically sound and bad for llamas, while the NAALG is considered the authoritative source, so now you can’t use that site you found.

    If you use the library resources, you wouldn’t have found the NALG at all, it would only have been the NAALG… (the whole explanation is a little simplistic, but I only have them for 50min and we’re all doing our best here…)

    3. Derjungerludendorff*

      Excellent example!

      If this is what reading too much AaM does, then we cannot possibly read enough of it!

  19. Jan Levinson*

    I have a positive update!

    I wrote in about a month ago in the open thread. I had brought up the issue that I was having with semi trucks parked up and down both sides of the street that I work on. I felt very unsafe driving to and from work, as cars coming from both directions would blindly drive through the middle of the street, hoping no one was coming from the opposite direction. Often, cars would be coming from both directions, and one car would essentially have to back up, pull behind the semi parked on their side of the street, and let the other car pass before proceeding through the middle of the street.

    Many of you suggested I contact local law enforcement to see if ‘no parking’ signs could be put up due to the unsafe driving conditions. Before I even had a chance to do so, several ‘no parking’ signs were put up all over the street less than a week after I had posted on here. Now, the street is clear and no semis have parked on the street since.

    It’s so nice being able to drive to and from work without the fear of getting in an accident!

    3. Natalie*

      What a timely update! I drove by a truck parked in an unusual spot earlier this week, and thought about your situation. Glad to hear things got resolved!

    5. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Now I’m wondering which of the regular commenters is the secret identity of a fantastic law enforcement officer.

  20. Duke*

    Should a boss spend his/her personal money (that is not reimbursed by the company) for the benefit of the employees or department? Such as buying lunch, paying for parties, buying gifts/cards, or buying office supplies?

    Is there a difference between what is expected of a Team Leader, Manager, or VP?

    1. rayray*

      I feel like it might be okay to a point. When I worked at a law firm, sometimes the attorneys would buy us pizza on their own dime. It was very kind of them, and we appreciated it. One of the attorneys also gave me and at least one other person $100 bills as a little bonus/thank you for our hard work, an unexpected and untaxed bonus!

      BUT I also remember that letter a few weeks ago where the boss was spending lots of money all the time, and I do think it can go overboard. I think if a boss wants to treat or reward somebody, it’s up to them to do so, but it shouldn’t be done to bribe or favor anyone over others.

    2. Enough*

      It is not a case of should. In your example office supplies or any items needed to preform duties of the job are the responsibility of the company. The rest is up to the manager and their motives of doing so. As an employee I do not expect my bosses to gift me with any item. We are work colleagues not friends or family

    3. rageismycaffeine*

      I think it depends on the boss and the workplace. Mine spends his own money on this kind of thing happily, but we’re also a public university and don’t have a lot of “company” money to spend on that kind of stuff.

    4. Oh No She Di'int*

      Look in the sidebar (toward the bottom) and click on “my boss spends too much personal money on us”. You’ll find lots of opinions there.

    5. CupcakeCounter*

      I think it depends and should be quite limited. At my job, Boss will usually do out of pocket for our team Christmas lunch (usually the 2 bosses will split the bill), the first round of happy hour, donuts once or twice a year, etc….
      Lunch was expensed for the people who showed up to work during the polar vortex and a coworker who just had surgery was sent flowers on the company dime.

    6. Wulfwen*

      I think it depends on what you are buying. One of your examples was “office supplies.” Most office supplies should be paid for by the company – it’s a normal operating expense. I think people should only pay for their own if they have very particular and expensive preferences that the company won’t approve. Most common example I see is pens. If the company buys pens that are less than a dollar each, and the pen you like is five dollars each, you would buy that.

    7. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      No, for office supplies because that should definitely be a business expense, but the rest is discretional so if a manger wants to buy food or gifts in order to thank or treat their employees, and the company won’t reimburse that, then it’s fine. I know my university will allow petty cash for buying a card (for instance) but not a gift.

    8. tink*

      I think it’s fine for occasional small expenses (like bringing in a card or snack for someone’s birthday), maybe okay for a very rare non-working lunch (i.e. Lucinda’s been with the company for 25 years and is finally retiring, Frank’s been promoted to management at a different branch after being at this one for a long time, etc), and not okay for office supplies unless it’s something they want specifically that the budget doesn’t normally cover.

      My current manager usually buys a dessert to celebrate people’s birthdays, and we do a potluck once a quarter that everyone contributes towards.

    9. Alianora*

      Our director does from time to time (not office supplies, though!) and we do appreciate it. It isn’t expected, though.

    10. MissDisplaced*

      I think the office supplies ought to be provided by the company, as it is their expense.
      Personal niceties for your team are a bit different. For example, treating them to lunch or snacks or birthday cards/gifts on occasion as a thank you might be personal money. The holiday party ought not to be.

      I think there is a limit to this though. It’s one thing to spend an occasional $20-30 on pizza or Chick ‘Fil-A versus a large party that might cost hundreds. Holiday gifts may depend on size of your department and how many you manage. When I managed a team of three, I gave each a $50 gift and holiday card, and that was in addition to the company party. For birthday’s we just did potlucks that day.

    11. Person from the Resume*

      I agree with most people that sometimes being a manager includes spending money for lunch, party, or small gifts for your employees. It’s because its a thank you for being on my team, doing a good job, making me look good kind of thing. Gifts can flow down; they should never flow up.

      Office supplies, though? No. your company should provide the tools you need to do your job. Maybe fun, quirky office supplies could be a small gift, but not just needed supplies.

    13. Lilysparrow*

      Taking employees to lunch to build relationship = yes, appropriate for manager to pay personally if there is no dedicated budget for that.

      Bringing in lunch or dinner so everyone can stay in and work through a deadline – company pays, not manager personally.

      Parties – at manager’s house, after-hours? Manager pays. Cake in the breakroom? Could go either way.

      Gifts and cards? Could go either way.

      Office supplies – not appropriate for manager to pay, unless it’s something very specific as a personal gift to an individual (jokey stuff, sports team logos, things like that.)

    14. CM*

      I wouldn’t do it except in absolutely extraordinary circumstances. If you want to reward people at work, you should use the resources you have as a manager or VP — i.e., company resources — not the resources you have as a private individual. If your company doesn’t have any way to reward people, that’s a problem you should try to address.

      That said, if you’re particularly close to your team, and you all feel like you want to go out and celebrate as a group while everyone pays for their own meal or drinks — or even if you buy a single round of drinks and don’t pick up the whole tab — I think that’s fine.

      But, basically, the more formal it is, the more the company needs to be paying for it.

    15. stampysmom*

      No they shouldn’t. I expect nothing but I do appreciate when my manager buys my coffee sometimes when I see him in the office. I also get his coffee sometimes too. My team all work remotely and don’t see each other very much. So whoever gets to the register first pays when you grab a coffee with someone. Its a race!

  21. Stephen!*

    I am employed by my state’s government and a small portion of my job is to provide a service to a population that tends to skew conservative and have no compunction about bringing up their beliefs, completely unbidden and frankly undesired by me.

    That I can deal with. What drives me crazy is that they often complain about all the “free stuff” everyone gets and expects from the government, that comes directly out of the wallet of hardworking tax payers like themselves. Regardless of your political stance- they are saying this to me, a government employee providing them with a free service that comes out of the wallets of other hardworking taxpayers. Is there a good way to push back on this?

    1. JimmyJab*

      As a fellow gov’t employee, you probably can’t! It sucks, but I’m willing to bet learning to ignore it is your only option. I don’t even work directly with the public and we are very restricted as to what we can say to the outside world.

    3. Mama Bear*

      I think that other than reminding them occasionally that you are paid for by taxes “happy to help – your tax dollars at work!” there’s little you can do. I’d deflect and redirect as much as possible. “So, Mr. Smith, we were talking about YOUR tree, yes? Let’s get back to setting up that appointment.”

      1. Anongradstudent*

        Also a govt employee here! I really like the “happy to help – your tax dollars at work!” statement. Only if they bring taxes up beforehand, but that’s the kind of passive-aggressive response I like to see.

      2. juliebulie*

        If you happen to know the dollar value of what you’re providing to them for free, it might not hurt to mention that they’re getting a $xx service from you right now.

    4. Mainely Professional*

      I’m consistently amazed at how old grumpy conservatives complain about TANF and WIC and other government benefits but when it comes to their Medicare, it’s just their due.

      1. Derjungerludendorff*

        Well obviously they DESERVE it!
        They actually worked for it you see, unlike all those lazy good-for-nothings who all yada yada yada.

        A lot of people’s beliefs aren’t nearly as fair or just as they claim to be, especially when it comes to when they are held to the same standards that they hold other people to.

    5. Jules the 3rd*

      You probably can’t say anything because of your position, but you *might* be able to get away with some mild truisms.
      – Maybe joking about something that most people see as valuable, like ‘I know what you mean! Firemen and police too! It’s like fires and crime might affect more than just the people whose houses are burning or something!’
      – Or ‘we are all actually paying – everyone pays sales taxes’ (if that’s true in your area).

      Me, I’m not a govt employee, and I tell my farming cousins ‘oh, like those farm subsidies you get for the fallow front 40?’ All The Time. I have also been known to tell old people ‘you mean, like Social Security?’

      This has sadly failed sometimes relative to public education, because some people do not see this as benefiting them if their kids are not currently in school. Because no doctors or nurses or other service posts have ever come out of public education or something?

      1. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

        AEh, Social Security is earned. People pay into it. They are getting their money back.
        (Government employee as well)

    6. tink*

      No, because people like that only hate “free stuff” when other people they perceive as not contributing “as much” as they do are the ones receiving it. It’s a level of cognitive dissonance I’ve never been able to fully wrap my own mind around.

      1. Zona the Great*

        Right. I live in Arizona. Full of people needing and using really great social services but also complaining about other social services “others” need.

    7. Rusty Shackelford*

      No, you’ll never convince them they’re wrong, but it might make you feel better to say “Yes, that sounds frustrating. But on the other hand, if the government weren’t able to provide free things to people who need it, I wouldn’t be here giving you this free service, so I guess we all benefit in the end.”

    8. Cog in the Machine*

      Probably not, but I feel your annoyance. I get a lot of the same at my federal job, and we do a bunch of finsncial aid programs. The best I’ve ever come up with is to smile and nod and try not to roll my eyes.

    9. LKW*

      Unlikely to have an impact. A family friend was railing about the healthcare act and how the government shouldn’t be involved in health care. My dad asked “Oh, so you’re going off of Medicare? Good for you!” to which said family friend “No, I’m not! I earned that!”

      Cognitive dissonance is an interesting thing.

    11. QCI*

      I like to joke about how social security wont be around anymore by the time I get to their age, and then sigh and die a little bit inside.

    12. Sharrbe*

      I know a person who is profoundly disabled with a condition that has him confined to his house for the rest of life. He is on state assistance for his medical care – which he absolutely should be because there is zero way his family could pay for that level of care – it is extensive and it is costly. He’s also receiving disability. He’s also very very very conservative. And complains about how much of our taxdollars are being wasted on welfare programs. And how we shouldn’t believe those sob stories from the border, or people on welfare, etc. The level of cognitive dissonance is astounding.

    13. just a small town girl*

      Oh god, I would so want to say something like “Yep! Just like (X service they’re receiving), taxpayer funded programs can help a lot of people like yourself!”

      1. Auto Generated Anon*

        When Obamacare was being passed, my FIL proclaimed that the federal government better keep its hands off his Medicare.

        Nothing you can say to change them, but you can always amuse yourself by maintaining total pleasantness and offering that you *dont understand* do you mean this free service?

        1. just a small town girl*

          Yes! I do seasonal tax work for VITA and will occasionally get people who harrumph about how much taxes are taken out and how it goes to those f***ing *insert racial slur* blah blah blah and I just smile and say “oh yes, it’s so nice that taxes go to help people in need, like the people who need the VITA program!”.

          Nothing pisses those people off than someone politely disagreeing with them in a way they can’t shut down.

    14. Gatomon*

      I used to take those situations as an opportunity to discuss how the programs I worked with were funded, what the general eligibility requirements were and what factors went into benefit determinations, and how long you could receive benefits. If they were still grumpy, I’d give them the number for the fraud investigation department to report any fraud they were aware of and remind them that their government representatives would be the avenue to start with if they had ideas for reforming the program or felt that it should be abolished.

      I liked to plant the idea that government assistance is generally meant to be an investment: we would like to support John Doe with SNAP benefits for a year or two and connect him to other government programs that can help him train for a job that will pay better so that he get a better job. That increase in tax revenue from John Doe a few years later will cover the money spent on food and training for him and then some, because his earning potential is higher now that he has a desirable skill.

      Now if someone is giving you a bad vibe, I would just ignore the conversation landmines they lob out, but for those who come across as fairly reasonable, I think just letting them spew nonsense unchallenged further undermines the role of government.

    15. Windchime*

      I have a relative who used to work for the State Welfare department. His job was to speak with clients over the phone and help them iron out issues with their Snap (food stamps), rental assistance, etc. Some grumpy, mean person called and was yelling at Relative to “fix it; I am a taxpayer and I pay your salary!”. Relative replied, “Actually, right now I pay yours.” *

      * Don’t say this.

  22. MissGirl*

    I’m starting a new job next week! It’s a different environment than I’ve worked in before. Any tips on the following?

    –Working as a consultant with external clients?
    –Working for a mature start-up that’s growing rapidly?

    1. Kiwiii*

      I’m interested in this as well. I just joined an Old nonprofit that restructured significantly 20 years ago and then again about 3 years ago and has been Rapidly growing since the recent changes (it’s about doubled in size since then — and is slated to keep going at about the same rate as we just gained three new large contracts)(I only really realized this properly when I asked why everyone seemed to either have been here for 10-15 years or under 2.5 years.)

    2. WheezyWeasel*

      Startups: I like to say that it’s an interstate with a fast lane and a median, but no slow lane. Things either get done right away (fast lane), or they fall by the wayside and aren’t picked up again (median). The slow lanes are building processes to ensure consistency. It can be bewildering and frustrating to come from a company where there are lots of processes and documentation to a more freewheeling culture.

      – Be sure you can advocate well for what you need and are prepared to do it many times and to many stakeholders without getting frustrated. You may need to tweak your message slightly for each audience. If you don’t advocate for yourself and there are no established ‘slow lanes’ of procedures, it may not get done. This can be something as simple as getting your parking pass renewed up to why your 401K hasn’t been matched in a year, and anything in between.

      – Flexibility and adaptability to change is prized in some startups and rapid growth modes. If Procedure Y was in place last week and now Procedure Z is in place, forget about Y, the amount of time it took to get up to speed on it, whether it was a good or bad idea….etc. I’ve found it way easier to not try and pick apart why Procedure Z might have deficiencies, but start implementing it right away, then bring up those deficiencies weekly when you have data to back it up. “Procedure Z led to an increase of 5 hours of work for my team, meaning Procedures E and F were incomplete and affected Team Lamda”

      External Clients:
      – Client work expands to fill the time allotted :) Start setting up firm boundaries about when you will respond to them (hours of the day) your response time (24 hours min, even if it’s to say you are still working on it). If your company culture allows, do not send emails to clients on nights and weekends, program the email to auto-send when you are in the office.

      – Examine how you react to client criticism of the product or your own work effort. This is my weak zone, I feel the need to defend myself a lot about ‘why’ things didn’t get done, a bug that isn’t fixed, a functionality that doesn’t exist. I have reframed it to never say the word sorry on a call. I focus on acknowledging their frustration, explaining the next steps and what I’ll take back to my management team. Doing this consistently will keep your blood pressure down.

  23. Morning Glory*

    What are the fundamentals of being a good manager of relatively inexperienced recent grads or current students who will typically work on independent projects?

    I’m interested in how much explanation to give for projects, how much oversight during projects, how to give significant feedback without being demoralizing, and how often to do standing check-in meetings?

    2. Marion Q*

      (I’m six month into my first job after university) I realise this is probably more of a ‘me’ issue rather than ‘recent grads’ issue, but the one thing that I really wished my manager had done in my first month is for him to have explained the big picture/the reasons behind the tasks.

      To illustrate, I’m a llama groomer. During training, I was only trained on how to feed the llamas, how to brush their coat, etc. But I wasn’t given the explanation of why I had to use this brush only, or how my work will impact other llama groomers, things like that.

      It may seem obvious, but for someone who doesn’t have any prior experience working, it wasn’t. Especially because in school you’re only responsible for your own work; what you do only affect you and no one else, it can be relatively difficult to understand that someone else depends on you doing a good job on your part.

      Hope that helps!

      1. halfwolf*

        seconding this with the caveat that you want to do this kind of explanation on a rolling basis rather than all in the beginning, or it becomes way too much for a new person to absorb. i’m not a manager, but i’ve trained several people in my position and have had to try to strike that balance between giving context (that will ultimately be helpful but may be too much to remember all at once) and making sure the person knows how to do their portion correctly. one of the ways i’ve handled this is: i show the new person how to brush the llamas, focusing only on what they need to do rather than why. the first time they do it solo, i swing by to see how it’s going and ask if they have any questions, and use that as an opening to give the further context of “you have to use this brush because other brushes may damage the llama’s fur, and since we’re going to shear the llamas and sell their wool to a high-end company it needs to be as pristine as possible.”

      2. LKW*

        Also seconding (thirding?) this. Context. I’m working with a team now that is showing clear signs that they don’t understand the industry they are supporting. I start with, “Are you familiar with this process/concept?” and then pick a starting point based on their answer.

        But sometimes it’s just a reminder that if they don’t understand something – Google is a friend.

    3. ACDC*

      You can probably vary how often you do check in meetings. I’ve had times where I do a daily check in if I’m working on something really important/time sensitive. I’ve also just had weekly or bi-weekly check ins. It could be something where you start off doing them more frequently and then scale back later on.

    4. Anona*

      I try to provide written instructions that are really clear, so they’ll have something to refer back to. I then go through the written instructions with them in person. We then try a task together, ideally letting them “drive” (or do whatever on the computer themselves vs them watching me click through stuff). I make it clear what they need to do if they have questions. And then have them try a task on their own/meet with them briefly after the task to make sure they’re still OK, and let them know what was good, and what they need to work on. I would assume that they’re not going to get it right at first, and also tell them that. Tell them that it’s a learning process.

      This takes a long time, like sometimes initially a couple of hours for their initial training. I’d allot 1 hour to train, at least, for each new task. I would’t do more than 2 hours of intensive training a day. I’d do some training, and then let them do something independent (either practicing the task or doing some reading/own studying).

      I’d then meet with them at least once a week.

    5. Kiwiii*

      Re significant feedback without being demoralizing — framing it as though “of course you wouldn’t know, let’s work through what happened and what should happen next time” instead of framing it as “this is where you went wrong” is really helpful. They don’t have a work history yet and so they don’t have a lot of experience with office norms, how to research things on the job, or even sometimes how they’re expected to problem solve.

    6. Platypus Enthusiast*

      I did two internships at the same time- one was a perfect fit, while the other was a valuable experience in a work environment that doesn’t work for me. I agree with what Marion Q mentioned (actually, I’m also less than a year into my first career-related job out of university) about having the context behind a project. Indicating which tasks should be priorities and deadlines was pretty important to me- actually, clear communication is really, really important to develop people who may have less experience. In terms of feedback, be very clear on what they did well and exactly what areas they need to work on. When I worked retail, there was a supervisor in a different department who would come by and tell people “I don’t like how you did that”, and walk away. We’d have no idea what she wanted from us, and she always refused to elaborate.

      Please demonstrate good workplace practices! I’m still startled to think about toxic behaviors that were normalized at some of my previous workplaces.

    7. MeganTea*

      I work in a university office, and I supervise multiple graduate assistants (GA) and student workers. From the very first interview, I emphasize that working in our office means acquiring a lot of institutional knowledge, we know that it takes about a semester for students to get up to speed and learn the foundational info, and because there is so much to learn, and certain events/processes only occur a few times per year, we expect these students to have a lot of questions and even occasionally ask the same question again as they are picking up all this info.

      This does a pretty good job at setting the stage for encouraging new hires to ask me questions. The new hires also get to see the more seasoned student employees ask me questions, so when I do assign a project and end with “what questions do you have,” they don’t seem to worry about “looking stupid” when they ask questions.

      For each of our positions, we have a “manual” that outlines regular projects and processes for that specific position, as well as the important info for the person in that position to know. Whenever someone graduates and gets ready to leave, I ask them to update the manual, and I go through the manual, too, to to make sure info is up-to-date. Having this documentation helps a lot in getting the new hires going and doing projects/processes for the first time.

      Typically, new hires need a lot more hand holding and oversight, but as they settle in, I’ll back off and start asking more for them to use their judgement. However, from the beginning, I’m giving a lot of feedback — but it’s mostly a lot of small pieces of feedback and a lot of “let me give you the context” for how things work or why things are the way they are. Since this is how I work in general, and new hires can see this is how I manage everyone, it’s very rarely embarrassing or demoralizing for them. I mean, occasionally, they do mess up, but when they do, my attitude is “how can we correct this or prevent it from happening again?”

    8. AcademiaNut*

      I’ve worked a fair bit with research summer students (undergrads or recent graduates). Typically we get them for about two months, so it’s a fairly compressed schedule.

      – Start out with meeting daily, to talk over progress and provide feedback. Some students will be able to work fairly independently (good problem solving skills, reasonable judgement), others will need a lot of hand holding, and help learning how to solve problems, some will be overconfident and inclined to veer off in weird directions without checking first. Typically, I expect to adjust the project based on the students’ capability.

      – I usually start out with assigning background reading for the project (in our case, it would be some papers, and maybe a chapter or two of a graduate level textbook for some of the technical background). Students are often better at the finer details (do X then Y), than understanding the context of the project, so I make sure to explain what the project plans to accomplish, an overview of how we’re going to do it, and how it’s going to fit in with the larger research plan.

      – I don’t generally dump the whole project on them at once. I start with a manageable chunk (something that should take about a week), then work from there.

      – A lot of the feedback can come during the daily check ins. Having it in small chunks makes it more manageable than dumping a week or two of corrections and suggestions at once. If there are general trends, address them as you notice them – like, being more careful about details, showing up on time, getting them to search on stack exchange before coming in to ask me. If a student is demanding too much of your time, address it.

      – Go in knowing that they may be missing very basic things that would seem obvious to you, and be willing to explain stuff in a matter of fact way. Sometimes you have to explicitly tell a student that showing up for work hours or checking their email regularly during the work day are mandatory (really!) or explain basic workplace hygiene and dress standards (yes on deodorant, no on lounging pyjamas, ripped muscle shirts or short-shorts).

      – Give them a chance to ask questions, and ask them questions to check their understanding of their work. Some students will be shy about admitting they don’t know something, others will be inclined to bluff and make stuff up if they don’t understand, so watch for that.

    9. CM*

      From your question, I think that when you say “significant feedback” you mean “negative feedback,” but it’s worth considering that feedback can be negative, positive, and neutral — all it is is sharing your reaction to what someone did.

      However, if we’re talking about negative feedback, I think the rules with new grads are the same as with anyone else.

      1) Don’t wait until it’s all the way done to start giving feedback, and don’t parachute in unexpectedly. Mutually agree on a couple of milestones or check-in points that make sense, where you can have a look at the work as it’s progressing and give feedback on specific aspects of it.

      2) Use feedback as an opportunity to describe the issue you’re seeing and not to tell somebody how to fix it. If they ask how to fix it, you can suggest things or explain the thought process you’d use to figure it out, but don’t lead with a solution. So, instead of saying, “You need to go back and paint all the roses red,” you’d say, “The problem I’m seeing is that the roses don’t seem to match the Queen of Hearts’ aesthetic, which makes them look off-brand.”

      If the issue is more like “I hired this person as a writer and I think they are a terrible writer” … that’s not something that’s likely to change, but my advice in that case is to step through the difference you’d like to see one piece at a time, in order of priority, as an experiment to see if the person is actually capable of doing what you want. So, in the writer example, if you say, “I’d like the next draft you send me to be clean, with no grammatical errors,” or “I’d like the next draft you send me to be in the same voice as these other promotional materials” or whatever, and they literally can’t do that, that’s information you need to know, and you can get it without telling them the whole list of 500 reasons you think their copy sucks.

  24. Liking your coworkers but not the company*

    I like my team. I like my boss. I like my boss’s boss. I like other people at my level and a step above. But the senior leadership / direction of the company, not a fan (bad financial decisions leading to layoffs, rolling out required tools that prevent you from getting work done, etc). How do you decide to leave the company if the work, pay, colleagues are good / decent but you don’t like the corporation as a whole ?

    2. MissGirl*

      If the leadership is shoddy and makes bad decisions, your job isn’t secure. The status quo of everything else can change on a dime. Will your managers want to stay if they have to deal with bad leadership, your coworkers?

    3. Kiwiii*

      provided you’ve been there long enough to gain anything from it, i’d say it’s time to start looking selectively.

    5. MissDisplaced*

      It’s not an easy decision.

      If other aspects of your job are good, and you don’t have to interact with the upper levels, you can probably live with working there and taking your time to find a company you’re more in line with value-wise.
      But if the decisions impact you directly, and hinder your growth or job security, you might want to be more active in a job search. Ultimately though, you have to decide if you can live with the direction the company is going in.

    6. International Holding, Unlimited*

      I was here earlier this year (although steadily growing more frustrated with my grand-boss as well). I’d been there almost 7 years, climbed as far as I wanted to (any further up and there weren’t a lot of positions, plus I’d be getting much closer to upper management and wanted nothing to do with them), and the pay wasn’t great although the benefits were nice. I got out, but I was very particular about where I went.

  25. Quiltrrr*

    I am very frustrated with my workplace. My manager has been on medical accommodations since I’ve started here (about a year and a half). I’ve worked with him before, and I know he’s a good boss…very knowledgeable, low drama, supportive. But, he’s not been working at 100%, and he’s rarely in the office (he is allowed to work from home, and he usually is not contactable in the afternoon). This is very much a butts-in-seats place, and I know that his lack of being in the office plus his lack of focus is…not good. I don’t think it’s putting a very good light on our team either.

    I have no idea what to do anymore. Part of me is sympathetic…he’s in constant pain. Part of me is very frustrated because most of the time, I have no direction and our projects are not getting completed like they should be. I don’t want to talk to his boss, because we don’t have any relationship (this place is also very hierarchical). Have applied to other jobs, and had some interviews that the time to have heard about getting a job has probably passed (coming up on 2 months with no word back), and this is a niche role that only large companies would have.

    Any ideas to deal with the frustration?

    1. Kathenus*

      I understand the frustration, but my advice would be to focus on what you need to be able to do your job. For example, you need more direction – OK, what does that look like to you (written instructions/specifications, more deadlines, work assignments clearly spelled out, etc.). So that’s what you focus on, not that your manager is not physically there or his situation. The reason you’re not getting the direction you’d like doesn’t matter, what’s important is finding a way to get the direction you need.

      Also, for the bigger picture, look at the positives. Your company is supporting your manager with flexibility and accommodations during a difficult time. In spite of the challenges, this is largely a good thing about your company which might benefit you some day if needed. Instead of thinking that it puts your team in a poor light that he’s not there, look at the perspective of a supportive workplace.

      It’s absolutely reasonable to find ways to solve the problems that hinder your work, which also might involve building a relationship with your grandboss if that’s going to be a contact when your manager is out, but look at the bigger picture of what you need to be able to do your job well and ask for that, and not get lost in your manager’s specific situation. Good luck.

    2. ACDC*

      No advice, just sympathy for the situation. My previous boss (just moved to a new team internally about 3 weeks ago) hasn’t worked a full week since December or January and has been on FMLA off and on for about 6 months of this year.

  26. Goldfinch*

    I think I inadvertently trash-talked my husband at work yesterday.

    A pregnant colleague and I were walking to a meeting, and she was (jokingly) complaining about how her mother-in-law is obsessed with astrology and is predicting things about the baby. Another colleague, Jane, made a disgusted face as she passed us in the hall, and I made a mental note that Jane must not care for astrology. It wasn’t until later that I realized, based on her timing, that Jane probably only heard me say “My husband is a cancer” with none of the context. Oops.

  27. SwirlPencil*

    I got a master’s degree in llama care and did some llama grooming internships several years ago. I was never able to get a llama job, but still apply to related positions occasionally (ones that only require a year or two of experience) because it’d be great if all that time/effort/money I put into learning about llamas didn’t go to waste. I applied to two llama grooming jobs recently. I already interviewed and got rejected for one.

    The recruiter from the second company sent me a list of questions two weeks ago asking about my understanding of/familiarity with/knowledge of various llama topics, and my experience with specific grooming tasks and equipment (which I obviously only have from my grad school classes and internships). She left me a voicemail a week later saying to call her back ASAP, which got my hopes up, but she just wanted to know if I’d ever worked at the company before because the hiring manager thought I sounded familiar. (Wouldn’t I have mentioned that in my cover letter or listed it on my resume?!?!) Haven’t heard from her since then, so it’s not promising.

    All this is making me wonder: Should I stop applying to llama grooming jobs? I assume candidates with recent degrees and professional experience will always get picked over me, so maybe devoting time to applying, doing phone screenings, and going to interviews is just a big waste of time. If someone was going to hire me for a llama job, that would have happened by now, right? If I’m asked to interview, is there any questions I can ask first to get a feel for if I’m a serious candidate or not? I wonder if the only reason I get asked to interview is to fill interview quotas (like if they need to interview at least 5 candidates with the llama care degree).

    1. Norm*

      If llama grooming is what really makes you happy, you should keep trying to get into it. I wanted to be a llama groomer since I was about 10, did it as a amateur for a decade, majored in llama grooming and got my first job in a grooming-adjacent field.

      But I never caught on and decided after a while that llama grooming wasn’t really more fun than journalism and administration, so I moved along and I guess now I’m happier?

      The key thing I see in your post is that you never say you LOVE llama grooming and wish you could quit your soul-crushing job to make llamas your life’s work. If you’re really not that interested in it anymore, there’s nothing wrong with moving on.

      1. SwirlPencil*

        I do LOVE llama grooming and if I won the lottery I’d quit my soul-crushing job and find somewhere to volunteer with llamas.

        But I’ve already spent two years volunteering with llamas, invested 2 years and a ton of money into getting an advanced llama degree, did three unpaid llama internships, have been applying to llama jobs for several years, and I have nothing to show for it. And I don’t have the time or money to invest more into that career path (like getting a third degree, volunteering, or doing more unpaid internships).

        I’d still jump at the chance to work with llamas, but, realistically, am I just wasting time still applying to llama jobs at this point? How do you know when to give up on a dream that’s tied to your aging degree and experience?

        1. Mrs_helm*

          I don’t think you ever have to give up on it completely. But if you don’t have time to pursue it (volunteer, take more classes, do it PT/freelance) then…maybe don’t? How would it make you feel if you said ‘I’m gonna back burner this while I do this other job that supports my family…and maybe come back to it later.

          I say this as someone who got pulled into programming in the late ’90s – after getting a degree in English Lit and most of the quals needed for a teaching certificate. I do not regret it, because I feel good about the work I am doing and about supporting my family. Would I maybe like to teach Shakespeare at community college someday? Sure. Maybe I will! I just came back to musical performance after 18 yrs also. It could happen.

          But it isn’t a crime to do what is working and not what isn’t working. (Especially if you don’t have time to fix the unworking thing, assuming there even IS a fix.)

        2. AcademiaNut*

          The two reasons I can think of for giving up

          – pursuing it is taking away from time and energy you could spend doing other fulfilling things in your life, with little chance of getting anything in return.

          – pursuing it is keeping your disappointment at the front of your mind, and keeping you from moving on with your life.

          So I’d ask yourself the question – if you knew that you would never get a Llama related job, what would you do? Particularly in the context of not liking your current job. Then, even if you decide to keep on with it in the background, you can be working towards a happy life without Llamas in it.

    2. SwirlPencil*

      I reached out to the recruiter about the second job and they said the hiring manager thought my skill set was not a match for the role. This is the first time I’ve ever gotten any sort of feedback about my candidacy for these kinds of jobs, so maybe I should just take it to heart.

      1. Owler*

        I’m sorry. I’m sure that was hard to hear, but I hope that maybe it would help you crystalize your thinking?

        My only contribution is to think about whether there is a time limit to entering your llama career. Perhaps there is value in giving yourself time to step away, pursue something else, and reevaluate in a few years. I realize that there are certifications that can expire, so this path is not realistic for all interests. I like AcademiaNut’s advice above.

    3. Miranda Priestly’s Assistant*

      I’m literally in the same position as you in my own version of llama grooming. Did a degree, unpaid internships as well as a couple of short-term contracts, volunteer consulting, and I’ve made it to the final stage round of several interviews only to lose out to people with yet “more experience”. My understanding is that the field is very saturated, where there are far more qualified candidates than job openings. My current strategy is to continue applying (because applying never hurts!) but not to put all my eggs in one basket and pursue other alternative opportunities as well. I’ve made peace with the fact that I may never truly work in the llama grooming industry, but will still continue to contribute to the industry through volunteering and other ancillary activities. And you never know what those could lead to! If it’s your passion, I don’t recommend giving up totally – you miss 100% of the shots you don’t take.

  28. EmilyG*

    I have been approached about doing some consulting! I’m excited because I feel solid on the subject matter and my experience. Also have a sense of what I should charge and how to document the steps. But as I try to write the proposal, I’m getting stuck on things like how much background work is just mine to do, versus what I charge for. Like do I specify time for “thinking of questions to ask Person X when I interview them” and “looking stuff up on the web.” That seems a bit silly, but I don’t see how anyone makes money if they don’t charge for their time. Does anyone have any advice or resources?

    1. DataDiva*

      Congratulations! I started consulting for a university professor about a year ago, and I charge for everything, even research time (because that’s what you’re doing! Not just ‘looking stuff up on the web’ haha). I didn’t have to write a proposal up front; instead I just invoice monthly with a brief description of each time entry on the invoice, and I only bill in 15 minute increments, so I’ll try to roll a few short tasks like research and thinking up interview questions together so I’m not overcharging or shorting myself.

      Unsolicited advice: charge more than you think you should! One, you have to pay your own taxes and unemployment and such, about 30% of your income. And two, as an independent consultant you’ll still be cheaper than if they hired McKinsey or whoever to consult. For reference, I charge $50/hour for remote stats consulting, and that’s definitely low. If I were charging a corporate account (not academic or nonprofit), I’d say at least $75/hour, maybe more.

      1. EmilyG*

        The first thing someone told me was figure out how my salary works to hourly, and then double it. And yes, that has an immediate “?!” reaction from me, but I’m going to stick to my guns.

      1. EmilyG*

        I think my first mistake was getting too granular. I can make a list like that for myself but I don’t need to put it all in the proposal. In fact they said it would be easier to pay me a flat fee so I’m just doing this for estimation purposes, really!

    3. Filosofickle*

      I don’t charge for time per se but I do charge for what value / deliverables I create for them, and that includes a lot of time! Everything you have to “do” to do the work is part of what they’re paying for. Including background work!

      In proposals I always list a Phase 1: Planning that includes some of those background things.
      A. Project plan – Outline the process and schedule…
      B. Kickoff – meet as a group to align expectations…
      Content review – Review client provided materials and perform desktop research…
      Something like that. Your fee must account for all this time

      Further, I don’t typically document the minutiae because it’s not necessary, plus it avoids any arguments about what things cost. For example, simply saying “Review existing documentation and get up to speed on client context” covers a lot of ground, they don’t need bullets more detailed than that most of the time. They need to see enough to understand what they’re buying, and possibly to build confidence that you have knowledge/processes in place, but more words is not always better.

      I’m not sure if you mean the same thing by “interviews” but I do a lot of formal research interviews. In a proposal, I would not list the embedded sub-tasks, like creating interview questions before or typing up notes after. It’s more important to describe the purpose & process. What kind of conversations (group, 1:1); number of sessions and duration; what you want to learn; who, specifically, or what types of people you’ll be interviewing.

      1. EmilyG*

        Thanks for these helpful examples. I think I just needed some plausible verbiage to get the juices flowing. Overall it seems like I was getting too granular and that’s why it was beginning to sound silly to me. I won’t be doing research interviews–it’s more like management consulting–but I’ll need to talk to a bunch of different stakeholders and synthesize.

  29. Anon reader*

    Does anyone have any recommendations for where to buy women’s suits in store? Issue, I’m a size 18-20, so places like Express and H&M don’t work. Also, preferably, places with a younger style and not matronly?

    1. Coco*

      Have you looked at j crew, Ann Taylor, banana republic? I have liked suits at Ann Taylor Loft’s outlet in the past. Good luck. Suit shopping is not fun

    2. JimmyJab*

      Loft has plus sizes and while I don’t buy suits from them, they do sell suiting and I like the other clothes I’ve purchased there. Some of their things can be a bit matronly, but you can find youthful things as well! Good luck!

    3. DataDiva*

      I’ve heard good things about Zara and Asos suits, and I just checked and both have some extended size options. I know you said in store, but both are free shipping over $50 in case there’s not one near you. Definitely fresh, non-matronly cuts :).

      1. QueenoftheCats*

        Just to note: i think zara tends to run on the smaller side. Other than that, their clothes are nice and durable

        Maurice has a nice professional/work line of clothes and has a extended sizes.

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      Torrid has been awfully suity lately. The selection on their website is better than their in-store selection, but they’ll definitely have something for you.

      1. A tester, not a developer*

        I was just going to recommend Torrid! Even in store they’ve had two different cuts of jackets. And I’m in Canada, where we get the dregs…

      2. Filosofickle*

        “Statement Suits” have really taken over, especially in plus sizes. This is your moment if you like that sort of thing!

    6. CupcakeCounter*

      New York and Co has extended sizes that also come in petite and tall. I have found their tall jackets to be a godsend! I have very broad shoulders and large breasts with a small waist and with the tall jackets I don’t need to buy 2 sizes up just to be able to move.

    8. Fabulous*

      Agree with Coco that Ann Taylor LOFT is a great option – I got my most recent suit (that I’ve already unfortunately grown out of) from LOFT. You might also try Macy’s.

    9. CoffeeforLife*

      I bought a ton of suits at Macy’s -this was Las Vegas so it might not apply to other locations. Love Banana Republic but don’t recall them stocking past size 14 in store.

      1. Decima Dewey*

        Dress Barn is going out of business, though. I have a Dress Barn credit card, and I’m told it will become useless sometime in October.

        2. nym*

          I bought a pair of work pants at Dress Barn in 2005. I’ve worn them at least weekly for 15 years, and the only thing I’ve had to do is replace a button. They are amazing and I am very sad at the loss of sturdy work clothes.

    11. macaroni*

      Talbot’s saved me last year. I went to a bunch of different places and had some extremely wtf interactions with sellers who didn’t seem to understand that, yes, I wanted to buy a suit _today_ and not have it special ordered. Then I walked into Talbot’s. Ten minutes later, I walked out with a suit that fit me.

    12. Mop Head*

      I love JC Penny, they have nice suits and separates, like jackets and pants, in those sizes, and are not outrageously expensive.

    13. Em from CA*

      If you’re near a major metro area, check out MM LaFleur. They are my professional go-to, and they have a great range of items in the sizes you mention. They’re pricey, but the quality is great. (They also do one of those “we send you a box of items for you to try on” programs, if that appeals.)

    14. Tea. Earl Grey. Hot.*

      Macy’s and JC Penney have good stuff. Also, RIP Lord & Taylor, I always had good luck there (but they’re no longer in my city).

    15. DaniCalifornia*

      Second Torrid. I’m the same size and got a great blazer and pair of pants that were the same black and roughly the same material (pants were stretchy too so they are way more comfy than other pants I’ve had to wear.) And they are always having great sales!

    16. Coverage Associate*

      Macy’s. If you can learn your brands and sizes, I like to get them on eBay. It doesn’t save a whole bunch of money because of misses, usually with color or sleeve length, but it saves time and the selection is better.

    17. Ms Ida*

      If you are near NYC or Seattle Universtal Standard has some suiting. They are also online of course but theose are the only two store locations. I highly endorse as non matronly.

    18. voluptuousfire*

      Torrid! I’m roughly anywhere from a 16-20 and Torrid has some really cute suiting this year. Although some of the cuts may be a bit “sexy” for a more conservative office (i.e. very slim fitting suit bottoms in some cases), I think they’re worth a look. They also usually have decent sales so you can get a really good looking suit for around $80 or so. Not cheap but def better than other places. Sign up for their Insider. You get 5% off every item you purchase in addition to whatever sales you may get.

      I should also mention I’m a Torrid fangirl. :)

      The Avenue may be an option. Some of their stores are being closed down so you may find something. I also bought a few nice black ponte knit sheath dresses from Old Navy’s plus sized section for a song. Can’t go wrong with a LBD for $20.

      1. HoundMom*

        Dillard’s is wonderful for suits. Sadly, I do not have one near me, but my MIL finds me amazing clothes there and they have fabulous sales.

  30. Lizzy May*

    I have a coworker who came in sick two days in a row and I’m just very frustrated about it. On Wednesday she tells me she isn’t feeling great and I say to her “if you still feel like this tomorrow, stay home.” We’re short staffed right now, but I can handle it on my own. I get in on Thursday and she walks in coughing, sneezing and barely able to talk. I tell her to leave and I can process whatever she has one the go. She decides to stay until after lunch. On her way out the door yesterday, I again say “if you are still sick, don’t come in tomorrow. Stay home, take care of yourself.” I get here today and she’s worse. She left for the day about a half hour ago.

    My four month old nephew was born a preemie and has serious lung issues. He spent the first two months in the NICU and is still on oxygen. I was supposed to see him tomorrow. Now I can’t because I will not take the risk that I could have caught something and I’m not exhibiting symptoms yet. If you are sick, stay home people. I know jobs can make that very difficult sometimes, but this sort of thing is the reason why. You don’t know who you are putting in danger by spreading your germs around.

    1. DAMitsDevon*

      Uggh yes, I had to undergo treatments for a kidney issue that suppressed my immune system (and technically it won’t be back to normal until next month, though it has likely improved since I went off steroids), and in the past two weeks, a few of my coworkers have come in sick. Luckily, I didn’t catch anything, but I’d rather not see what happens if I catch something with a weakened immune system.

    2. Earthwalker*

      Some honestly sick people come in because they assume their boss will think they’re malingering when the boss never stated a position on sick time one way or the other. I had a very cranky boss whose one saving grace was that he insisted that anyone with an illness must stay home to protect our one team member who was on immune-suppressant drugs for his organ transplant. Is it possible that you could confess your situation to the boss and the boss might offer clear and open support for sick people staying home?

    3. Monican*

      In an ideal world, everyone would stay home when they have a cold, but you can’t control how your coworkers choose to use their time off. She may have reasons for choosing to work while sick. Also, you can pick up a cold virus anywhere at anytime. Being around a sick coworker does increase your chances a bit, but you could also easily pick up a virus at the grocery store, on public transportation, or anywhere else you go. A person can be contagious without showing symptoms, so even a seemingly healthy coworker could be a risk. If you want to keep yourself from getting sick, wash your hands frequently and wipe down surfaces you touch frequently.

    4. Former Govt Contractor*

      I hate, hate, hate this. On Monday, co-worker had been talking to me for about 10 minutes in my office before she says she’s still feeling SO sick, had been throwing up for hours right before she came to work! I got so mad, I told her to get out of my office, what the hell is she doing here! We get TWENTY sick days a year (plus vacation plus personal days plus holidays etc. etc. etc.). Two others in my small office have now come down with stomach flu. Seriously.

        1. Derjungerludendorff*

          Or seriously hesitant to take sick days for some reason.

          Either way, they should have stayed home, and management should have sent them home if they didn’t.

    5. Anona*

      I’d explain about your nephew, and also that you can handle stuff on your own. Something like “I don’t mean to overstep, but if you’re sick and have the leave, it would mean a lot to me if you could stay home. I try to visit my preemie nephew, and I have to skip visiting with him when I’ve been around people who are sick”

      1. ACDC*

        This is a good point, your coworker certainly has no knowledge of your schedule outside of work and the conditions around that. You are annoyed because she has compromised your ability to do something outside of work that she has no idea about. She can’t do anything about it when she doesn’t know about it.

        1. Lizzy May*

          I did explain, both yesterday and today, that I would have to miss my visit with my nephew if there was a chance I was sick. She also knows my sister, who she has worked with in the past, and knows all about my nephew and his circumstances. I get that my annoyance is mine to deal with, but I also just think we all need to do better about staying out of public spaces when we are sick and especially if someone expresses a clear reason for you to stay home.

    6. ACDC*

      Is this person eligible for sick time or PTO? Or does she not get paid if she doesn’t work? I’ve come into work sick at any job where I wouldn’t have gotten paid for taking a sick day. At that time, I couldn’t afford to miss a day of pay. I’m sorry you can’t visit your nephew though.

      1. Lizzy May*

        We get 5 sick days and 3 personal days that can be used as sick days if needed. I don’t know where she stands in terms of days remaining because I don’t count other people’s time away.

          1. Lizzy May*

            I’m sorry if that came across as snippy. Not my intent at all. Just wanted to add details to this specific situation.

        2. Mama Bear*

          8 days a year isn’t that much, so maybe she’s out or knows she will have to use them. Frustrating to be sure (we had a guy – HR no less! – who was always bringing plague to the office). I’d talk to the parents and see if there’s any precaution you can take for a visit. Sometimes we’ve worn face masks if we or they can’t be around germs. I’d also be upfront with the coworker “I can handle this on my own and I’d like to not get sick so I can see my premie nephew.”

          1. Lemon Squeezy*

            Agreed, and we don’t know if that PTO is already obliged to something else, so it’s only safe to assume the five sick days are available. (A family wedding, a vacation, etc.) You can be direct, but sometimes people have used their sick days and need a paycheck. Still sucks for both parties, tbh. (Companies, give your employees actual workable time-off policies!)

          2. AcademiaNut*

            Honestly, with a total of 8 days off for sick and personal, a lot of people are going to save it for something more than a cold. That time has to cover illness, personal day stuff like dealing with plumbers, doctor’s appointments, plus any care-taking responsibilities for ill children – a couple of days off for a cold can mean not being able to take time off for more urgent stuff later, or having to take unpaid leave.

            The only way you can really expect people to take stay home for run of the mill colds is to offer a *lot* of sick leave without any penalty for taking it (and having to catch up after you get back is a penalty) or to freely allow people to work from home when they feel under the weather.

            Also, keep in mind that the contagious period for a cold is about a week, and starts before symptoms show, so avoiding cold germs without avoiding people in general is really hard.

    7. JB*

      I was sick and my manager used very similar phrasing as yours to tell me to stay home. But, because she is unusually generous and kind and loves to give me opportunities to have little bits of personal time, I didn’t realize her true (very reasonable) motivation, that she was afraid of contagion. And all my previous jobs were super stingy with sick time and assuming workers were malingering, so we were discouraged from staying home when sick and expected to tough it out. You need to be much more explicit and clear in your directions to her, e.g., “Please stay home when you are sick; I don’t want to risk contagion in the office.”

    8. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I hear you on that one. I have immediate family on immunosuppressants, and it’s yet one more reason I truly miss our revoked work-from-home policy. We had a *LOT* less general illness in the office when people who were coughing could be productive off-site when they were sick!

  31. ES*

    I’m newly salaried and have some questions about work/life balance. I’ve worked with a few other people at my level and most of them work 7-6 5 days a week with no breaks, while I was told at hire that the role would typically be 40 hour weeks. The workload really doesn’t support these kind of hours, but when things are slow and I let me codirector know I’m heading out for lunch she always seems surprised! I know she’s working these hours in part to train me, but how can I get us both working more reasonable hours? Is there a way to do that as the new hire? For the record, it should be one of us working 7-4 and the other 9-6, but we’ve both been 7-6 for the past two weeks!

    1. CTT*

      Do you know for sure they’re not taking breaks? When you’re salaried it’s not “and here is your official one hour break.” Some people do do that, but others take 5 minutes here, 15 there, etc.

      1. ES*

        We sit in the same area, she’s definitely working through the entire day. We’re codirectors in a child care setting so sometimes we’re in classrooms but mostly we’re up front covering phones while working at our computers.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      It sounds like that’s the culture of the place (though it’s too bad they seemed to misleading about that when discussing it as a 40-hour position). You could ask your boss, “How normal is this schedule? Do you think this allows down or is this pretty typical?” I don’t think you have the standing to change it.

      I also wonder if your codirector is surprised because she thinks you’re asking permission versus just an FYI? Or maye she’s just feeling distracted from what she was doing?

  32. Tattletale*

    In my company, we  have a department of about 20ish CS/admin reps to support 5 teams (we’re about 100 or so in office employees). Hierarchy wise, they dont’ report to me directly but because I am a manager of another dept, I am allowed to give them tasks, and little bit of feedback herea nd there. The company has multiple depts and all pretty much intersect with each other so everyone’s pretty familiar with each other. 
    I sit next to the CS/admin manager and we have a pretty good relationship. He has made it clear that I (and other managers) can talk to them and assign them tasks directly but most of us always end up talking to him first though, as a courtesy.

    So what happened was that a ticket was created and it came into my depts queue. I looked in to it and it was supposed to go to a different dept. The admin who created it was on another task, and his mgr sits right next to me so I just talked to him. It was along the lines of “hey just want to confirm that this ticket goes to this queue, and not this queue right? I see this often and I’ve been communicating this to the other teams–I can talk to your team directly or–?” 

    So he called the admin over and the guy got offended saying I tattled, why did I tattle, I could have just talked to him directly. I’m like, “its’not tattling, this is what happened–” I kept getting cut off (again lots of joking and laughing) at the end I rolled my eyes and went back to my work. He just said “oh i’m just joking/teasing.”

    Given teh way our office is, this is def not something anyone would get written up for or even a “serious conversation”–he’s not my direct report, I wasn’t “tattling” and it’s all good. I tlk to the mgr like 50x a day about work and non work stuff, so it really wasn’t a “hey your guy messed up!!!” conversation. 

    What did raise my shackles was that after that incident, he (the admin) immediately reminded me of someone who I worked with several years ago. (The short version of that is that I was senior to him [but not a team leader/manager/supervisor] and we got along great until I told him to cut something out that might land him in major trouble. He got mad and things got really nasty after that. Eventually he quit and I got promoted but it was an eye opening experience). This guy gives off those vibes to me.

    1. International Holding, Unlimited*

      Sounds like your current guy really was just trying to have fun, but it didn’t land right. I would try and let it go. If it’s still eating you next week or if he seems weird towards you, send him a note or grab him for a sec and say something like “hey, I just wanted to check in about last week – you made a fuss, and I think it was in a jokey way, but I just want to make sure you aren’t upset.” And then see what he says.

      If he’s like ‘well, it was jokey but also why would you tell on me?’ then you can have a conversation about how it’s really not a big deal or something he’s going to get in trouble about, but also sometimes you as a manager are going to need to talk about mistakes with other managers. If he’s like ‘oh yeah, I was just playing, all good,’ then you can rest easy.

      1. Tattletale*

        I think he was just joking. I’ve let it go, it’s not really bugging me but just wrote this here to get other opinions. He’s behaving like he normally behaves, which is fine. He is young and I’m guessing this is his first office/corporate job, and he’s taking cues. from the people around him. I dont’ want to be too quick to write him off but I don’t want to ignore any vibes I get.

    2. Lilysparrow*

      Eh, I believe in reading vibes, and when people remind me of others it’s usually for a very good reason.

      There’s really nothing to be done here, but keep an eye on him. Don’t change what you’re doing, but if he starts this nonsense again, I’d be pretty direct with him about shutting it down. You’re a manager, you’re not in his department, and he’s being an ass.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I agree here – people who are actually joking or even trying to defuse tension with humor don’t usually interrupt other people repeatedly, especially managers. People who are passive-aggressively trying to deflect blame do that, and then claim it was a joke. I’d have made serious eye contact with the admin’s manager while this was going down – I’m surprised the manager didn’t shut it down in the moment, but either they were caught off guard or they’re used to this guy’s attitude. But if the manager isn’t going to shut it down, then you should feel free to if it happens again.

  33. Rebecca*

    Warning, rant ahead about email subject lines – oh, why oh why can’t people just be clear? I’m not talking about standardizing them, but seriously, if I get one more email with a blank subject line, or copied in on a formerly blank line “Re: ” or “Fw: ” and that’s it, I truly feel like my head will spin around on my neck. I am so frustrated with vague or obtuse subjects, and having to scroll down through pages of back and forth to determine if it’s something I need to address or not. And, since no one here seems to follow any rules about email etiquette, just because I’m on CC doesn’t mean it’s not an action item for me. And if I’m in the “To” field, again, it doesn’t mean it IS an action item. And sending an email with the word “Order” in the subject line is useless. No matter how many filters and rules I set up, I can’t catch every possible permutation. Which order? Just a few more keystrokes, like “ACME Anvil Order” would clear so much up. Oh, I don’t handle ACME, not for me.

    I realize I’m jousting at windmills. But it feels good to type this out.

    1. nhb*

      I also have a lot of annoyance about this. What I have found to be semi-effective is to reply with question after question after question until I get all the information I need. I don’t deliberately send one question at a time, but, for example, say in your ACME Anvil Order example: get the “Order” subject and then the sender asks a question about “the order”. My reply: “Good [morning/afternoon, Sender], I received this email but I’m not sure which order you’re referencing. [Department] has different people assigned different vendors, so I need some clarification to make sure we can get you the answers that you need.” Sender replies: “Oh I need to know the status of the anvils.” Me: “Thanks, [Sender]. Which company is the order with? Do you have an order number or any additional information so that we can look this up for you?” Etc. If you do that every single time, some of them will eventually start including it in the emails. But yes. It’s very, extremely annoying.

      1. Decima Dewey*

        It is annoying. One of the people most guilty of sending emails with blank subject lines is the person who’s supposed to be the floating Digital Resource Specialist. She’s (eventually) supposed to go from branch to branch, helping patrons with computer probelms.

    2. MOAS*

      Honestly, anything that’s FW or Re and blank? I delete it. It could be spam/fishing, whatever it’s called. It goes right in to my trash.

      If it’s from my boss/coworker, I’ll dig deeper and ask verbally if they sent something, but from an outside source…nah. Trash.

    3. Tea. Earl Grey. Hot.*

      This is SUCH a pet peeve of mine. If people would send me emails that talk about the specific Llama I’m training for them, it’s easier for me to organize, but I constantly get ones labeled “Llama Training”. Each sendee seems amazed that they’re the only one who thought to title their email in such a fashion. A few are changing, but jeez. What is even common sense anymore?

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      LOL I’ll join you in that rant. I’ve seen three different threads going this week where the subject line is ….oh let’s say “Approval”.
      -Fergus got approval for project A and is asking for help with release steps for project A.
      -Jane wants to know how to submit project B to the approvals department. (FYI, I’m not in the approvals department.)
      -Cersei is asking for my department to complete Project C for approval. (FYI we’re still waiting for content from a third department and she knows it.)

    5. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      I’ll joust the windmills with you. Why, oh why, do people start a new email rather than reply to the email I sent them? which has a subject line… and when I need to double check what’s been decided for a project I can just scroll down the back-and-forth. But no, they start a new email AND don’t put anything in the subject line.

    6. AnonJ*

      Oh, I hear you loud and clear. I have one colleague whose standard subject line is “Question”. This does not help me prioritize how I read the 100 or so emails I get per day.

      Worse though is I have clients who will respond to an email from weeks, months or literally even years ago with an entirely different topic in the body of the email. Then they will keep it up. They only EVER respond to emails, never initiate new ones with new subjects even when it is an entirely new topic. It makes it soooo hard to go back and find prior emails. I almost think they do this on purpose to make it harder for me to find the emails where they said they want to move forward with “thing A” but are now asking why we didn’t do “thing B”. With them, I’ve learned to change the subject line in my response to be the current issue at hand so I can more easily find things going forward.

      1. fhqwhgads*

        Yeah I used to do support and there were 3 or 4 clients who literally always emailed in with “question” as the subject. No variation on capitalization – never anything that specified what it was a question about. Once on a whim I checked and it was consistent across something like 5 years? Every. Single. Email. from those people.

    7. Stornry*

      Worse – I work in HR and we have one employee who, no matter the topic, uses his name as the subject line, literally, “From Bob Llama”. as though Outlook wouldn’t tell me who sent it. He does it every single time – for years.

      1. min*

        I’m in HR and one employee always emails be replying to whatever previous email chain of mine he can find. Most recently it was a question about his vacation time with the subject RE: Pension Contributions. Drives me insane.

  34. Parenthetically*

    Has anyone done a certification-based IT program online? A relative of mine just got accepted to one — it’ll end up after 2ish years with her getting a B.S. in IT but at each step along the way she’ll get a certification that can actually go on her resume! It seems ideal for her situation — single full-time working parent — but I’d be very interested to hear from folks who’ve done something similar!

    1. OtterB*

      What’s the institution? I would be careful of for-profit bachelor’s degree programs, but there are a lot of state universities and so forth with online programs now.

      1. Parenthetically*

        It’s definitely not a for-profit! I can’t remember the institution but it’s all fully accredited and seems very legit.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      Is it a WGU program? I received many certificates in my programs there. The certificates fill out my resume but the substance of the certs can be questionable. My COMP TIA certs were so outdated that they were laughable! My SAS certifications were brutal, but I can’t write a single line of SAS. I learned what I needed for the exam, and never wrote a line of code. So you get out what you put in.

  35. Watermelon M*

    Question: considering a long commute for a way to escape toxic job?

    Sad to report that work hasn’t gotten much better, but I’m hanging in there. I have a consistent workout routine to relieve stress. Karen still insists I call her ma’am, but I have now just employed the “Ok.” And go about not doing it later. Twice she has said “You people” to me now when she’s frustrated about something, and when I asked for clarification, she said “Oh, you know what I mean.” In an exasperated tone. I stopped talking to her unless I need something related to work. No more saying hello or goodbye in the morning/evening. She’s complained to my boss that I don’t talk any more, but my boss doesn’t care thank goodness.

    Anyways. There is an opportunity for a job that seems like a good fit and pays a bit more than I make now. I thought about jumping ship to temp work because there’s nothing in my field in my current city, but I’m waiting until I cannot take one more second here. I’m afraid that will set my resume back and I won’t find a relevant job. This position is an hour-1.5 hour commute one way in a bigger city. I currently commute 45 minutes one way. I know other people in my city commute to bigger city but they do say it’s not fun. I’m so ready to be out of this awful workplace. The other workplace is diverse too. Would I be trading a different kind of misery for a long commute? Anyone here drive that long for work?

    Moving down to that city wouldn’t be an option for another year, as my partner and I renewed our lease last month.

    1. Watermelon M*

      On a slightly related work, one of my ways to remind me that this time in this job won’t be forever and helps me laugh through the tears—I’ve changed my passwords at work to be motivational so every time I log in, I’m telling myself positive things. Phrases like “better things to come” or “nothing is forever” or “here for a good time not a long time” but you know, shorter and with random numbers.

      1. Arielle*

        Haha, at prior jobs I have absolutely set passwords to coded versions of things like “I need a new job” or “get me the eff out of here.”

      3. Seeking Second Childhood*

        A former co-worker used “FireMe!” ….and because of Murphy’s Law, that’s when her computer froze and she had to call in IT to help her and they needed her password…
        Luckily that IT guy had a good sense of humor.

      1. Mama Bear*

        It’s a lot out of your day, honestly. I used to have a commute that would easily stretch that long, if not longer. I did do an hour commute before this job because it was only 2 days in the office. If you can sometimes WFH, that would help balance it out.

        I also like the idea of moving if there’s more opportunity in the other area.

        1. Mama Bear*

          To add: You said you couldn’t because of the lease but I think the suggestion of trying to find new tenants might help. OR if it was an awesome job and you knew the commute was temporary, it wouldn’t be so bad.

    3. Donkey Hotey*

      I used to have a 90-minute commute. I got a -ton- of reading done with audio books. However, I had just moved to a new city and had -zero- social life and no family obligations. I can’t possibly imagine trying to do that now that I have a wife and friends (and no kids).

    4. Psyche*

      Would you move in a year? I have a very long commute (1.5-2 hours one way) and the only things that makes it bearable is that I love my job and there is an end in sight. A long commute indefinitely would be much more should sucking.

      1. Watermelon M*

        Possibly? I’m also just considering moving back to my home state in a year. But if I like this new job a lot, I could see myself moving to that city. Maybe it would look better on my resume to bear my toxic job for another year and up my therapy sessions, so then I could have two years at this position. Sigh.

    5. Elenna*

      Hmm… that’s about the length of my commute to my high school (I was in a specialized program) and it seemed fine then, but since then I haven’t had a commute longer than 45 minutes and over one hour just seems ridiculously long. So I guess there’s a possibility you’ll get used to it? (Either that or high school me was just better at working on little sleep.)
      On the other hand, in high school I was taking the bus to school, and I could at least nap on it and didn’t have to worry about driving, traffic, etc. If I were driving that long I’d be worried about being too sleepy to drive in the morning, but YMMV.

    6. A. D. Kay*

      Could y’all move if you could find someone to take over your lease? That’s a pretty common thing to do.

      2. Watermelon M*

        I think we could! It’s just that my partner couldn’t move at all for the next 3 years because of grad school and I think what’s keeping me here is loving living together. I’d have to go find a random roommate in new city. But we are still talking all this out so breaking a lease and finding a subletter may be something we could do.

        1. Mama Bear*

          Is there a city in the middle that would work for both of you – not too far for him, but shorter commute for you?

    7. OtterB*

      You know how you feel about your current commute. How would you feel about adding to it? Are there any vanpool sort of options that would mean you didn’t have to drive it yourself? Would you like audiobooks? How will it affect things you do outside of work, e.g., would you have trouble getting home in time for a weekly meeting of some organization?

    8. LawBee*

      First, apply for the job – don’t talk yourself out of it yet. Leases can be broken and it’s not something that should ding your credit score. It happens! People sometimes have to move. And long commutes are something that you can get used to, if the payoff is worth it. Audiobooks, podcasts, chill time in the car where your only responsibility is getting to where you’re going – those can be great. If you can handle a shorter evening at home before you have to go to bed, so you can get up earlier to get to work on time, then it could be worth it!

      And apply now while you’re still able to tolerate your current workplace so you’re not absolutely desperate later.

    9. ArtK*

      Does the new company have any commuter support, like vanpools? Is there public transportation available? Either of these can make the commute much more bearable. Being able to relax and read while moving is a lot better than having to stay focused on traffic if you’re driving by yourself.

    10. Parenthetically*

      Well, just to put a different spin on the advice — I know around here AND where my husband grew up it’s common for landlords to allow you to break your lease if YOU do the work to find someone else to take it over. You might lose your deposit but you’re going to be losing that much money in gas and wear and tear on your car in the next year anyway. Might be worth checking into.

    11. Sister Michael, Black Belt*

      I did this. I went from a horribly toxic job where my short commute was the only benefit at the end. I traded it for a job that I love and excel at, but my commute now runs anywhere from an hour to 1.5 hours. I’ve been doing that commute about a year, since we also rent and our house is close to where my spouse works. We’re in the process of buying a house that makes us have a more equal commute time.

      Commuting that far sucks, BUT my new job is so so so much better than where I was. And knowing that there’s a general time frame on how much longer I have to do this commute helps. My boss also let me flex my hours to be off of major traffic times, and lets me work from home when there’s bad weather. It helps that I feel appreciated and respected at my new job.

      Apply. You don’t know what will happen, but you won’t get the job if you don’t apply.

      1. Windchime*

        I did the same. I left a toxic job with a 20 minute commute for a great job with a 45 min – 1 hour commute (45 in the morning, 1 hour home). I used to take public transportation but now I drive. Because Seattle traffic is horrendous, I leave the house at 5:20 in the morning and work from 6 till about 2:30. I am NOT a morning person but it’s worth it to me to work with good people and great benefits. I eat a simple car-friendly breakfast on the road and listen to interesting podcasts and it’s really not so bad. I also work from home 2 days per week, so that definitely helps.

    12. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Is it a drive or public transit? I currently drive 45 miles one way, and it’s a mind-number. There’s only so many repetitions of that one NPR article and pop song you can hear in a day. In another part of my life I commuted on the train 75 minutes one way, and I could read, knit, write letters, etc. (I don’t recommend embroidery or hand-sewing unless you’re safer with a needle than I am.)

    13. E*

      So I do this commute daily. I spend 3+ hours in the car a day. I was planning on relocating, but quickly found out that this job and I were a very poor fit. Which means I haven’t relocated and am still doing this trip. I think if you do consider this position you need to do a really good job of interviewing the workplace and making sure the job and the people are a good fit for you. A terrible commute on top of a terrible job is soul crushing.

      That being said, you will get a lot of time to listen to audiobooks/podcasts/music if that is of interest. Everything else in your life you will have way less time for.

    14. Sandman*

      I had a commute this long years ago, and it was pretty wearing – but your work situation sounds so toxic that I would make that trade in a second. This sounds miserable; I hope it improves for you soon.

  36. You can call me flower, if you want to*

    I am a middle level employee working for a small SaaS company. We are growing rapidly and working on recruiting new employees. I think that if we added some additional benefits (we have health insurance and a few other little things) we could recruit more people. One benefit I really want my company to consider offering is paid family leave. However, I’m nervous about bringing this up. I’m a young woman (with plans for a family in the future, not now) and I don’t want to risk not getting big projects because “she’s going to be out for awhile.” I know it’s illegal but it happens.

    I did bring up paid leave to my boss and she mentioned that we have FMLA (we are owned by a bigger company with many more employees) but I thought FMLA was unpaid? (I know we need to take our PTO first and that’s paid but we only get a couple weeks and FMLA is 3 months right?)

    My question is should I try to fight for this? What is the best way to do that? Am I way wrong about FMLA?

    Thank you for your help. This community is awesome.

    1. Art3mis*

      You are right about FMLA. It guarantees your job if you’re eligible, it does not pay anything. You could also suggest offering short term disability for employees. That’s what most employers I’ve been at have vs a flat out parental leave policy.

      1. Mama Bear*

        We had Short Term Disability, but you had to use 2 weeks of your own PTO, then the disability kicked in. My last 4 weeks out were unpaid AND I had to pay extra for my health insurance because there was no check for it to come out of. Covering any of that with real paid leave would be a good benefit for folks, I think. This is probably something to clarify with HR instead of your boss.

    2. Mbarr*

      Canadian here who doesn’t understand American mat leaves… But do you have a friend at the company you could get to ask your questions on your behalf?

      E.g. At my company, we’re doing a benefits review and we were asked to submit our wish list for better benefits. No one knows yet, but my friend who works here too is pregnant, so I slid “Top ups for parental leave” into the middle of my wish list on her behalf.

    3. Margaret*

      FMLA is “unpaid” – but it runs parallel to PTO, parental leave, or other methods of having paid time off.

      E.g., FMLA means if you return in 12 weeks your job is protected. It doesn’t have anything to do with whether or how you get paid.

      While you’re out for those 12 weeks you’re not paid by anything having to do with FMLA, but you may be paid for that time via other things: if you have parental leave (my firm does two weeks – so dads/non-birthing parents take that, for birthing moms that covers the waiting period until short term disability kicks in). If you have PTO/vacation/sick leave. If you have short term disability insurance.

    4. Parenthetically*

      I think framing just as you have here could work, especially if you bring in information from comparable companies (or companies that are comparable to where your company is aiming). You could go to to HR and say something like, “Hey, as we are growing rapidly and wanting to attract quality new hires, I think adding a few things to our benefits packages could make us more competitive in the market. Similar Company A offers 6 weeks paid family leave, and Similar Company B offers 4 weeks paid family leave plus up to 3 months work-from-home benefits after that. I’d like to see us be able to attract people who might otherwise choose Company A or B.”

    5. AnonJ*

      Correct, FMLA provides for job protection during qualified leave but no pay. As your company is trying to grow during a time where the job market is really competitive for employers, not employees (at least where I am), adding benefits is a great way to go.

      At my small company (20 FT, 20-25PT employees) we’ve added company paid STD, LTD and life insurance, an EAP (via the STD/LTD insurer), 3 weeks of paid parental leave (not great, I know, but most companies of our size offer zero), and a gym membership reimbursement. (We also offer paid bereavement leave and jury duty leave in addition to our standard paid time off)

      But what I’ve found potential hires are most interested in are training and career development opportunities. We budget for each employee to go to one industry-related learning conference each year and encourage them to choose the one that best fits their interests, as well as offer a career development allowance of 3% of salary/year for employees to put towards a class/conference/training of their choice, on company time, in addition to the conference budget.

      I think it is the combination of benefits that works best. People associate paid family leave with having a baby and not every potential hire is in that boat. Offering a broad range of benefits that appeals to people in all stages of life is the best practice in my opinion.

  37. Anonforthis*

    Taking any suggestions or tips on how I should prepare a working paper/research design for a conference. I’m submitting one for the first time ever. I currently work in industry but do a lot of research, and conducted a lot of research during my M.A. program.

    1. OtterB*

      This is really field dependent. Can you look at papers that were submitted to the conference the previous year? Can one of your industry colleagues or your previous academic supervisor help with guidance?

  38. A Messy JD*

    How do you keep files organized in your workspace? I’m an attorney and my desk has exploded. I have 7 redwells, 6 pleadings binders, and 4 books out, not to mention 12 post-its, 15 legal pads, and piles of discovery.

    1. CTT*

      Also an attorney – I have a big bookshelf that I sort by assigning attorney so my files have some sort of organizational system. My desk also explodes, but I try to clean it off every other day (or if things are really crazy, just at the end of the week). Regular cleaning helps me from having too many things pile up to the point that it’s insurmountable.

      1. A Messy JD*

        I don’t have a bookshelf, but I have a wraparound work station so I treat half of it as storage. I try cleaning on Fridays, but that doesn’t always work.

    2. LawBee*

      The only way to stay organized is to stay on top of it. Are you using those books every day? If not, shelve those suckers. Are you looking at each one of those those binders every day? Shelve them. Redwells can be shelved. Basically, if you don’t need it right then, put it away. If you need to refer to one for a random call, pull it out, refer to it, put it away.

      Why do you have 15 legal pads!? That’s way too many. Even if it’s one per case, you’re not working on every case all the time at every moment – shelve them and curb your legal pad habit, haha. It’s ok to flip pages, you don’t need a new one every time, like the Former Coworker of Mine who had TWENTY-SEVEN legal pads in his office with two pages used on each one.

      Also a credenza or some other flat-top furniture behind your desk is a godsend, if you can do it. Keeps everything accessible but your actual workspace clear.

      1. A Messy JD*

        Good point on the books – I put away everything but the Rules. I don’t really have available shelving, but my workstation is wraparound so half of it is storage. I’m trying to figure out the most efficient way of using it. My office is “paperless” so we don’t have filing cabinets I can use. I find it easier to do some things on paper when a case is ongoing, then shred when I’m done.

        I use legal pads like your coworker, using only the top page. Multiple pages get buried and I forget about them. Same with the post-its. I did just condense all my to-do lists into one electronic file so we’ll see if that works.

        1. LawBee*

          Can you buy a small filing cabinet for yourself? I’m a handwriter and paper user myself, the person who pulls up the case on Westlaw and prints it out to read, so I get you there.

          Whatever you decide to do, the key to succeeding at it is committing to it for a set period of time. “I’m going to use an X system for four weeks religiously, and then evaluate” and sticking with whatever system you choose (Remember the Milk, Getting Things Done, Bullet Journal, whatever appeals to you). I found success with a hardcover notebook like a moleskine or leuchtterm that lives on my desk for my to-dos and mental notes, a legal pad (8.5×11, I hate legal-sized paper) for drafting, and a dedication to clearing off my desk at the end of every day. “OK, I’m done I can’t wait to get out of here – AFTER I CLEAN MY DESK”.

          (Why does the hardcover book work better for me? Index pages, easier to rifle through, looks tidier than a stack of legal pads which leads to a calmer state of mind for me, when I write down something I 100% need to get back to I can flag it with a small post-it, and the satisfaction of literally closing the book at the end of the day. YMMV.)

    3. Glomarization, Esq.*

      I try like hell to keep only one matter at a time open and on my desk. Everything goes away when I’m done working on a piece of work. “Away” means off the desk into a filing cabinet or on a shelf or whatever.

      I keep a continuing scratch pad for notes-to-self if I get information or an idea that deals with a matter that is not the one that is open on my desk because I’m working on it.

      Maybe you need to up your electronic case management software and/or calendar game? I keep a running Excel spreadsheet of where I am on various matters, and my calendar is full of ticklers. With these tools I don’t need to keep files open on my desk to remind me of my next steps.

      1. A Messy JD*

        I shift my attention between 6-7 cases a day as the deadlines/phone calls/emails come in, so having one open at a time isn’t really practical for me.

        I spent 2 hours cleaning my desk and pulling files to shred as a result of this thread. I converted all my paper to-do lists into an electronic file, so we’ll see if I can keep that up.

    4. LadyByTheLake*

      Pleadings Binders go back into the file IMMEDIATELY. I used to only look at pleadings binders standing there with the file drawer open. If I need a copy of something in the binder (like a copy of the brief I’m responding to etc) I make a copy, but the binders live in the file cabinet.

      1. LadyByTheLake*

        Same with most books. If I need a case or a statute, I copy it (or most are online these days). I am also a stacker — each matter had its own stack.

        1. A Messy JD*

          You can take the paper code from my cold dead hands. I hate having to click “next” to get to each section of the code when I need to read the whole title. I did put away everything but the Rules which live on my desk.

    5. Coverage Associate*

      I write the matter name and number in marker on a blank sheet of paper. The papers for that case go under the paper when I am not working on the case. Things look kind of neat this way, and privileged information is covered.

      Do you need all that at your desk? Like, if you’re waiting to hear back about something, can you still file the earlier parts? My boss keeps a clean desk by having files with just the key documents for each case by his desk. Everything else he files. If he gets a call, all he needs for the call is the key documents.

  39. MsMaryMary*

    Funny story about the background check for my new job. I got a copy of the report. About a year ago, I was cited for a noise violation for my dog. I let him out at night, accidentally fell asleep on the couch, and my neighbor called the cops because he barked until I woke up and let him in. Obviously, not my proudest moment as a dog owner, but I was awake and the dog was inside and quiet by the time the cops arrived. I had to go to mayor’s court and paid a fine.

    The noise violation is a minor misdemeanor and showed up on my background check. Except it just said “excessive barking or howling” and did not specify it was pet-related. Luckily my new job does not appear to care if I howl at the moon sometimes.

    2. Miranda Priestly’s Assistant*

      Hahaha I love this. I wonder if the employer is wondering if you will suddenly break out into barks.

      1. One of the Spreadsheet Horde*

        “Oh don’t worry, I’ve changed flea meds so the barking only happens after 10 pm”

    4. Llama Face!*

      Well, believe it or not, someone actually barked repeatedly at someone else at my workplace one time. It was an intimidation thing. Working with the public is so weird sometimes.

      But I’m sure you were barking in a perfectly friendly way. ;)

    5. Seeking Second Childhood*

      OMG I’m trying so hard not to bark with laughter.
      (There are a couple of bigwigs having a chat in the open area behind my cube…must not laugh…)

  40. No Tribble At All*

    Y’all, how do I deal with a coworker who doesn’t stay in his lane? Yesterday I led [big complicated event] that lasted several hours. Coworker was in a supporting role, implementing something I directed. At first it looked like we caused some customer problems, but it later turned out those were unrelated to our activities. After we finished troubleshooting, we confirmed to each other out loud, multiple times, in Coworker’s presence, that we didn’t actually cause any customer problems. Coworker does not have the technical background to troubleshoot these problems; we are the subject matter experts.

    And yet, at the end of the normal work day, before our SME team declared the event a success, Coworker sends out his email to his implementation team saying “the event is done, there were only a few minor customer problems and we fixed those quickly, good job guys.” He also cc’d his boss, grandboss, and great-grand-boss — who is also my team’s great-grandboss. Not only am I pissed he stole my thunder (on the success announcement) and didn’t credit our team, he sent factually incorrect information to our bosses. We weren’t even cc’d on the email — I only found out because I’m friends with someone on the implementation team. Now those bosses are going to harass us about those customer problems that didn’t actually exist. He also doesn’t have the technical background nor the authority to declare an event a success.

    We finally decided to reply-all to a forwarded copy of the email saying “actually there were no customer problems, please correct this for the records.” So how do we have this conversation about him staying in his lane? (His direct manager is a lunatic and is no help). I don’t want it to sound like “you don’t know anything, stop acting like you do” but that’s really what I’m feeling right now. Thanks!

    1. Witchy Human*

      That’s super irritating.

      If nothing else, “I know you were excited to share about our success, but it’s important that the only person who sends a wrap-up and end-of-day evaluation email is the event lead, because it’s important to make sure that every department is getting complete and consistent information.”

      1. Kathenus*

        I think this is great wording to use. You’re getting your point across that you should have done the summary email to make sure it’s complete and correct, but using the ‘presume positive intent’ angle for his intent in sending one out this time.

      2. The New Wanderer*

        I think Witchy Human’s wording is probably best for what you’re looking for. In the moment, though, I would treat his email as only pertaining to his participation, not the project as a whole. So I would definitely make a point of sending out my own project wrap-up email giving appropriate credit and an accurate recap, and cc up the chain without reference to anything that coworker sends out.

        As it is you have plausible deniability that he sent anything at all, since he didn’t include you. If there’s a discrepancy between the two versions, like with the fictional customer problems, and the bosses ask about it, you can say that you don’t know what he’s referring to, as you didn’t have any problems that affected customers.

  41. ramonaflowers89*

    Should I bother to follow up on a phone interview for a staff position at a state university since it’s been over 3 weeks since, 2 weeks past the deadline the HR person gave as to when he would get back to me? I have his personal email, so I would just shoot over a quick email asking what his timeline is. Part of me is annoyed I have not heard anything despite me giving him an additional two weeks to get back to me while part of me is just saying to leave it, they’ll contact me when they contact me. I don’t want to bother him, but at the same time, I want an update so I know if I should cross them off my list.

    1. rageismycaffeine*

      Work at a state university here: I see no reason not to give him a poke. I don’t know which state you’re in, but in my state HR is absolutely notorious for moving slowly – we often say that hirings “move at the speed of HR.” There could be all kinds of thins going on. Email him. :)

    2. k8isgreat*

      I would send the email. I’ve been a staff person in higher ed for about 8 years now and staffing can be ridiculously slow. There’s an excellent chance that for whatever reason a bunch of faculty/higher level staff with crazy busy schedules have decided they must be part of the interview process and someone is now trying to find times when fifteen different higher-ups will all actually be in the building to hold interviews. Or you didn’t get it, I also personally took part in a full day interview and after it was over the school didn’t bother to send me a rejection but just reposted the listing. Welcome to higher ed!

    3. Ali A*

      I would absolutely follow up once. If no answer, then you can probably assume they’ve chosen another path – but at least you can say you did everything.

      As rage said, HR/Sr. Leadership moves slow – even when they have the best intentions to stick to a timeline.

      1. Lurker*

        I’d follow up. I had a university reach out to hire me a job after 3 interviews followed by 6 weeks of radio silence. They are ridiculous!

    4. BRR*

      I wouldn’t follow up and assume I didn’t get the job. I think it’s annoying and rude when places ghost you but following up doesn’t really do anything the vast majority of the time.

  42. Hopeful DON*

    I just applied for a Director of Nursing position in a nursing home. What kind of questions can I expect?

    1. Kaitlyn Westlet*

      Check with the Health Care Association in your state. I bet they can give you some guidance on the day to day role of DON would look like. You can look at NADONA.org too. Good luck!

  43. See no evil*

    I’ve been back at work a week after being off a month for recovery from a detached retina. My vision is still not great and I have made some frustrating mistakes this week. So ready for this to be over!

    1. Fikly*

      I’m two weeks into a return to work after 7 weeks on medical leave for a concussion. I am also frustrated with making mistakes that I would not have made before.

      I have a great manager, and lots of safety precautions in place so my mistakes don’t cause problems, but it’s super frustrating.

  44. BirthdayBlues*

    My birthday was Tuesday of this week and my current firm does not celebrate birthdays. I don’t think anyone knows anyone else’s birthday and I have never seen any birthdays acknowledged. In general, I think this is a good policy, as it ensures that no one is stuck planning things, no one is left out, no one who doesn’t like birthdays is singled out and no awkward or problematic situations arise, as we have seen happen so many times before on this page. But on the other hand, I like birthdays because it’s fun to have a day to celebrate, and I honestly appreciate a verbal happy birthday because it helps me feel less alone in the world. My last firm did a simple card that everyone would sign which I think is cost-effective and thoughtful.

    My question is: what does your office do for birthdays? Do you like it or not, does it work or not? What have you seen work really well or totally implode before?

    If I had it my way, everyone would get the day off on their birthday without having to take PTO, or even just getting to leave a few hours early would be so nice.

    1. Donkey Hotey*

      First up: Happy birthday.

      – My current employer posts a sheet by the time clock every month, listing all the birthdays that month. (Month and day only). It’s ok, but not amazing.
      – Former employer would usually do things by department. Usually brunch snacks or sweets (shudder) and the obligatory half-hearted singing of Happy Birthday.

      I’ve never seen or heard of a place that gives birthdays off. But then again, I’m the weirdo who thinks veterans should be the only ones who get veteran’s day off.

      1. Retired SMSgt*

        ooooh–YASSS to the Veterans Day for us veterans… my current company doesn’t recognize that as a holiday.

        1. Donkey Hotey*

          Same here. Back when I had four weeks of vacation, I’d intentionally take it off every year. My new company, I only get two and I’d rather have new year’s day off.

      2. CupcakeCounter*

        My mom worked for a hospital and all of the employees got their birthday (or the regular working day closest to their birthday) off.

        1. BirthdayBlues*

          Awesome to know that some places do this! I feel like it would be such a great perk, even if you don’t celebrate your birthday, everyone likes a day off.

    2. Blob*

      Well, if I like my colleagues and if I enjoy afterworks with them, or in general if we have that kind of relation where I know I would enjoy hanging around with them outside of work, then yes, i would love for them to wish me a happy birthday. But if I have a cordial and “officy” relation with my colleagues, then I don’t really care, and I don’t even think that I would disclose my birthday date. I have been in my current job for 8 months, and I never heard anyone wish another someone a happy birthday (I am in a very very BORING office, and I don’t think I am going to remain here).

    3. MOAS*

      At my company, we have a monthly celebration where a card is passed around, and we have cupcakes in the breakroom. Our office manager is responsible for ordering and stuff. Takes about 15 minutes out fo the day. Our HR management website announces birthdays, so anytime someone comes to work and logs in they see the “it’s __ birthday/work anniversary today!”

      We used to give gift cards as well but I guess enough people complained (“I pay $6 a month only to get back $20 in a year!) that we got rid of those.

      Fun story, we used to be a smaller office, and birthdays were celebrated individually. Literally 5-10 minutes out of the day.

      6 months later, it was time for my birthday and I’d never had a birthday at work so I was excited. Right at that time, a new rule was put in to place that birthdays are a monthly thing now. A few days after THAT, a separate birthday celebration was done for our CFO. My boss said he’s C suite so..

      1. The Blue Marble*

        My friend’s birthday is Dec 24th. After celebrating all year long everyone else’s birthday (and yes, having to “donate” monthly toward the expense) her birthday went by with… nothing. After being butt-hurt as hell about it, she finally said something and was told because her birthday was so close to Christmas they felt it didn’t need to be celebrated. She quit contributing after that.

    4. Miranda Priestly’s Assistant*

      Every week, the HR dept sends out company wide “Happy birthday to the following people..” shout outs. Nothing else. I like it because it makes you feel special but it’s not too over the top. If you’re one of those birthday people who likes more celebration, you can always organize something yourself. I bring in cupcakes for mine.

    5. DAMitsDevon*

      Last year, we tried to celebrate birthdays on a monthly basis, but it stopped because it ended up that a few people got stuck with having to buy the cards and the cake and do cleanup, and they got sick of it. Also, my team moved to a different building from the rest of the organization, so there are less birthdays happening each month now in our space. We do get cards to pass around and sign though, and decorate the person’s desk.

    6. SwirlPencil*

      The week of someone’s birthday (on a day that isn’t actually their birthday so it’s a “surprise”), my manager buys a cake, tells everyone except the birthday person to go to a meeting room, sends someone out to get the birthday person, and then everyone sings happy birthday and eats a slice of cake. The birthday person brings home leftovers. It’s nice if you’re into celebrating birthdays, but I find it humiliating to be the center of attention and haven’t personally celebrated my birthday in at least a decade, so I don’t care for it and would request they skip my birthday if I didn’t think it’d look bad.

      Would requesting that we celebrate a historical day of my choosing instead of my birthday look less bad?

    7. rageismycaffeine*

      The department head’s admin has a birthday list. A helium balloon appears on your doorknob on your birthday, and people are acknowledged as having had a birthday at our monthly staff meetings. We didn’t used to send cards around, but it looks like that’s changed with our leadership change. That’s pretty much it. I like that it’s super low-key, personally.

      I always take my birthday off as a personal holiday. :)

    8. CB*

      We have an employee morale/fun committee that keeps a master spreadsheet of MM/DD birthdays and work anniversaries. Each person gets a signed card from everyone in the office for each of those two occasions, and sometimes a small food gift (like a package of their favorite snack or a fancy cupcake). I personally like this because it doesn’t make a huge deal. My team (fundraising), of course, also got me balloons for my birthday and took me out to lunch. That was appreciated but not the office norm.

      My old job at same employer used to do a full birthday celebration for everyone. Each employee had a “birthday buddy” that planned their party, including paying out of pocket for a dessert and refreshment. I loved that team but hated those celebrations. They were so incredibly awkward and in months where more than one person had a birthday, it was so excessive. I think they moved to doing quarterly celebrations shortly after I left, with refreshments purchased out of the office budget.

    10. Jules the 3rd*

      Large office, we do 1x/mo birthday party for everyone who submits their birth date to the coordinator, as part of a 1x/mo in office lunchtime ‘event’. Paid for by the company.

      imho, this is the only way to do it.
      1) Purely voluntary and no pressure to join
      2) Paid for by the company
      3) With a person whose job it is to coordinate

      If someone objects to bday celebrations, they can step away for the singing and forego the cake. I like this procedure so much that I don’t even complain that they do it in our open office cube farm, I just make sure I take any calls during that time in a conference room.

    11. Nicki Name*

      Current office: An e-card gets created for people to sign a few days before a birthday. The link is emailed to the whole office and it’s up to you to sign or not.

      Past offices have included:

      * Nothing at all
      * Monthly cake, with people who had birthdays that month getting to vote, and people who wanted treats on their exact birthday would bring their own
      * “Birthday holiday” that was really a floating holiday that you could schedule any day you wanted

      At one job, the person who had to cover for me if I took a day off, and who I would cover for if she took a day off, turned out to have the same birthday as me, so neither of us wanted to take it and leave the other person with extra work.

    12. LawBee*

      We pass around a card, sometimes order in a lunch that is put on the firm’s card (but not always, it depends on who is around at the time), and our admin picks up these delicious little cakes from a local bakery and leaves them in the kitchen for everyone. (also on the firm card). Very low-key but nice.

    13. OtterB*

      Small not-for-profit. We used to have a cake at monthly staff meeting covering birthdays for that month and circulate cards, but we mostly don’t do that any more. I think the number got to be a bit much for the admin.

      A previous job, also a not-for-profit, had a tradition that if you wanted to celebrate an event – birthday, graduation, Groundhog day, whatever – YOU brought in treats of some kind and left them in the kitchen. I liked this a lot.

    14. Mop Head*

      I have always hated my birthday and I hate having a big fuss made in general. I’ve gotten worse since my identity was stolen. Where I currently work they pass a card around with your date of birth printed in large font so everyone knows when your birthday is and they have a party on a specific day. In addition, a few years ago we got intranet and they put everyone’s birthday there. I specifically asked to not have my birthday included, but the mean office manager refused. A few years ago I was dragged to the party when I was busy with work and said something mean to someone and the mean office manager finally relented and has respected my request. Can I come work in your office please?

      1. Reba*

        I don’t hate my birthday, but I do feel like making a deal out of it is odd. Some people in my office know each other’s birthdays! People tend to send out email acknowledgements of others’ birthdays, though not office-wide. I was very happy when I skated by my day without anyone noticing :)

    15. Mama Bear*

      We don’t do anything at the corporate level.

      I might, if I feel like it, take someone out to lunch or bring in birthday treats.

    16. CheeryO*

      State government here. No birthday cards. Cake only if you have a very nice supervisor or buddy who takes it upon themselves. People sometimes bring in their own treats, although that’s more often to celebrate work anniversaries or promotions.

    17. Anony pony*

      Our company gives us the day off, paid.
      We also celebrate once a month for all the birthdays in that month with a card & a treat at either staff meeting OR some random afternoon when all BD people are in should they choose to have a non breakfast type treat. My birthday month there are 7 of us and we all send the sunshine club organizers what type of treat we’d like & majority rules.

      The paid day off is awesome though and we can choose to take it any day that month. I have a holiday in my birthday month so I always take them together for an extended out.

    18. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      We’re a small office, and we’ve tried various things over the years: social committee decorates your workspace, birthday treats on actual day, monthly birthday treats, quarterly birthday treats, nothing in particular but a few ad-hoc cards, and probably things I’m forgetting. Nothing works well because we have busy times of year and slow times of year, so no one (including the one with the birthday) wants to do one more thing during certain months and it will never come out evenly for people with birthdays at different points in the year.

      I never get to do anything “fun” for my birthday because I’m always up to my ears at work that time of year and so is the rest of the office. The only way that would change would be to switch fields, so I really rather than we just didn’t make a big deal about birthdays in general. I’d be fine with occasional “cupcakes for no particular reason” days during the slow parts of the year as a substitute.

    19. Seeking Second Childhood*

      When I worked at a place that had a “birthday holiday” it was called that — but pretty it was expected to be used for “that holiday that is not on the standard western Christmas calendar that you don’t want to miss.”
      Be that Yom Kippur or Eid al-Fitr or Lunar New Year or Orthodox Easter or Samhain or the day after the Big Game.

    20. Beatrice*

      We sing. Everyone gets a chorus of ~50 people singing to them for their birthday. It does not matter if you ask for it not to happen or clearly are embarrassed. We sing for everyone. Everyone claims to hate it but we still do it.

      We also have a morale committee that organizes things (the ratio of gender on the committee is consistent with the ratio in the department, y’all!), and they make sure everyone gets a birthday card signed by just about everyone on their birthday. A big envelope full of cards is routed around every month.

      1. SwirlPencil*

        OMG. I’m used to birthday celebrations restricted within teams of about 10 or less.

        50 people (presumably many of whom would be strangers) singing to me would be terrifying.

        1. Donkey Hotey*

          Just wait… My old boss was her church’s choir director. She gave direction, drawing out the last tooooooo yoooooouuuuuuuu.

    21. AnonJ*

      I actually worked at a place once that gave people their birthday off (or a day nearby) as an additional holiday. People liked it.

      Where I work now we have a monthly luncheon. We rotate through doing potluck, catered or a combination and we rotate through who coordinates the luncheon – everyone gets the job at some point. The coordinator, in addition to coordinating food and time/date, acknowledges every person with a birthday or work anniversary that month during the luncheon. We keep a spreadsheet of birthdays/work anniversaries that is accessible to everyone and also contains a summary of dietary restrictions for current staff (not at the person level, more like ‘2 vegans, 1 gluten free, no seafood due to allergies’) so we can be sure we’ve got everyone covered. Most importantly, the admin who maintains the spreadsheet asks every person we work with whether they want to be acknowledged for either/both dates and leaves people/dates off according to people’s preferences.

    22. Thankful for AAM*

      Mine does birthdays – but only one department in the large, open workspace does them. My department and the other one in the large shared space do not. Everyone can partake, just not everyone is feted.

      This means that on my birthday, a coworker in the birthday celebrating department with the same birthday as mine, has a party, but I don’t. I get to go and eat stuff, but the cake says “Happy Birthday other person” and there is awkward, happy birthday to you too Thankful! They all know it is my birthday and the person who shares my birthday brings it up a lot (in a fun way, I enjoy the comments) and there have even been comments all week like – hey, Thankful and Other Person both have a birthday on Friday, how amazing!

      I regularly fill the office candy bowl and bring food on all birthdays and events so it is not because I don’t do my part. Its just a weird thing about my office.

    23. Asenath*

      My employer does nothing. The small group of 7.5 women collect $2 every two weeks for birthdays and gifts for sickness or a death in the family. We have a little snack at coffee break – we do not normally take coffee breaks. It’s often a cake; when a diabetic joined the group, we started having something else instead sometimes. And that’s it – even I, never find of birthday celebrations, don’t mind it. We chat for a bit, remember to say happy birthday, and go back to work.

    24. Owler*

      My favorite workplace had a tradition of the birthday person hosting their own treat at the weekly Wednesday Fika (mid-morning coffee hour). You choose what you like (sweet or savory), how much you want to spend on a treat to share, and really, if we even acknowledge your birthday.

      It can feel weird at first that you have to bring something for your own birthday, but I think it’s a great way to avoid the favoritism or snese of unbalance that sometimes happens when a workplace tries to do a celebration as a group.

    25. Ron McDon*

      My new boss has instituted reading out upcoming birthdays in our weekly briefing, and – I noticed this week – including them in the briefing notes sent to all staff after the meeting.

      I hate this! I am very private, wouldn’t tell my colleagues when my birthday is, and don’t like everyone wishing me a happy birthday all day.

      Other people seem to love it, so I think it’s here to stay, unfortunately!

  45. Amber Rose*

    So I posted late last time, but my new title is Safety and Administration Specialist. Is that better than Safety Coordinator or does it still sound entry level? There’s still room to ask my boss to change it.

    That aside, I have a success story! My boss asked me if we have a procedure and policy for dealing with harassment, and the short answer is no. So she asked if it would be possible to set one up, and I said I could do it but I would very much prefer if I could take the course on it that’s offered. And she said yes.

    So instead of sadly googling lots of OSHA stuff that is completely useless to me and getting frustrated like I usually do, I now get to take an actual class and base my work off of real training. Huzzah! Ask and sometimes ye shall receive.

    3. Derjungerludendorff*

      Specialist definitively sounds like someone with a good deall of expertise. I would certainly not assume an entry-level role with that title.

  46. Mimmy*

    TL;DR – Looking for tips on functioning during meetings and conferences when you are prone to sensory overload

    I’ve dealt with sensory issues my entire life – my ability to filter out external stimuli can be quite terrible. I don’t function well in meetings due to all the distractions around me, both visual and auditory as well as tactile on occasion (e.g. if someone rests their feet on the back of my chair at a lecture). At my regular job, I have a really hard time during meetings when multiple people are talking at once or having side conversations while I’m trying to hear whoever is speaking. Another thing I recently noticed is that I cannot speak when others are talking. The weird thing is, when I did an outreach activity in a cafeteria with my internship supervisor, I didn’t feel overwhelmed, although I did have trouble hearing (I also have a slight hearing impairment).

    Any suggestions for managing my reactions to distractions would be so helpful. I really want to grow professionally but I get really discouraged when I can’t even function during a volunteer council meeting :(

    1. san junipero*

      This might be a weird suggestion, but I have similar issues with hearing, and I actually find that earplugs can be a big help. Not fully plugged ears, obviously — you want to be able to hear the things you need to! But I use the wax ones and put them in without fully sealing them, so that they muffle things without actually blocking them out. That allows me to focus on the sound I need to focus on.

      Also, have you considered counseling? Cognitive behavioral therapy might help you manage your reactions when you feel overstimulated.

    2. Jules the 3rd*

      ooog – I get overstimulated with tactile stuff (eg, that feet on your chair – RUDE!) but audio / visual so I don’t know how much help it will be, but:
      1) I do better if I have a fidget / outlet. They make silent spinners / fidget cubes.
      2) I do better at different times of the day, so see if you can get large meetings at your better times
      3) Sit closer to the people who will do most of the speaking
      4) For meetings where you’re not presenting, ask if you can do some of them (eg, 10%? 1 or 2 / week?) via phone.
      5) Cupping your ear – ie, palm under your thumb on your jaw, fingers up around your ear. Use it to block out people on one side (3 – 4 fingers), or funnel sound in (2 fingers). You have to sit at a table to do this discretely.

      If there’s repeating meetings where you notice a lot of side chatter, those would be good targets for #3 / 4.

      The ‘can’t speak when others are talking’ is something you’ll need to talk to a professional about, and / or practice with friends and / or a speaking group like Toastmasters. You will need to be able to do that to be effective in professional settings.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        Also test out your reaction to small bits of caffeine. I do much better while my ‘1/4 oz dark chocolate in the mornings’ is still buzzing through my system, to the point that if I have afternoon meetings I will sometimes grab choc at lunch. When I’m tired, I am way more prone to tactile and auditory overstimulation.

        (Above – I meant to put a ‘less so for’ in front of ‘audio / visual’. My tactile sensitivity is daily, audio / visual is maybe 2x/mo unless there’s illness or lots of stress / tiredness.)

    3. Trisha*

      Bring a notebook and start writing down as much as feel comfortable writing (i.e. as much as you can without looking like you’re trying to transcribe the meeting). It has been a game changer for me – I find I’m more focused during meetings and able to recall more of what was said. I create my own shorthand so I can denote a change in speakers or where’s there’s a question and answer. I am rarely distracted by others on their phones or giving looks to each other (or snarky side comments) because my mind focuses on the listening/writing actions.

      1. Auto Generated Anon*

        I’m also easily overloaded in a big room of people. For meetings/sitting events, I try to sit near a door or window wall. Or a aisle if that’s not possible. Knowing I can escape helps.

        Also, if it’s not something I need to be at the table for, I often stand in the back of the room for a bit, as though I have back problems with sitting too long. Best part of being a grownup is that you can get up and leave your chair whenever you want.

      2. juliebulie*

        Writing/doodling helps me a lot too. Notes, if there’s anything worth making a note of. Otherwise, I’ll make lists: grocery lists; animals that begin with each letter of the alphabet; Star Trek episodes; elements of the periodic table…

        If I’m sitting where someone can see what I’m doing and I don’t want them to see me listing Star Trek episodes or whatever, then I draw random shapes because that’s less likely to be judged as “not paying attention.” (Ironic that we have to do something like that in order to pay attention!)

        That doesn’t help much for concentrating on (or even discerning) one voice amid a lot of cross-talk, or speaking when others are talking.

        I often fantasize yelling “SHUT UP!!!!!!” on those occasions, but so far I’ve managed not to.

        1. Mimmy*

          You’re better than me – when too many people at work are talking during our morning meeting, it takes every ounce of discipline to not say something. I’m not always successful.

    4. LQ*

      For the side conversations something I’ll do occasionally is say, hey, I really want to make sure that everyone hears what Jane has to say. Or I value both Jane and Wakeen’s input but I can’t listen to both at once.

      The other thing to do is pull aside the meeting organizer or facilitator and just say that you’re really struggling with the side conversations. Everyone knows it is bad they just sometimes need a kick to shut it down.

  47. Donkey Hotey*

    Hello Commentariat and happy Friday.
    As background, I work for a small teapot assembly plant. Morale is hovering right around “gallows” level. Recently, our summer intern (Arya) left to return to school. At the same time, our office reorganized. Not in the “change of command” sense but in the “shuffling deck chairs” sense. I’m personally happy because now, no one can walk up behind me and my obnoxious, talkative, right-wing co-worker is now in a different room.

    Yesterday, one of the men on the assembly floor asked me how I liked the move. In a hushed tone, I said, “I dunno, man. They played music as we shuffled the desks around. When the music stopped, we all sat in our new desks, and you’ll notice that Arya’s not around anymore.” And he believed me.

    We are officially in the worst timeline if “Musical chairs” is seen as a valid force reduction technique.

    2. Kathenus*

      Awesome thinking on your feet, what a great response. Maybe not so good either about this person or the situation if he believed you, but it gave me a Friday morning laugh anyway. Well done!

  48. Marion Q*

    Thank you to everyone who advised me to ask for reimbursement last week! I took the advice and sent an email to the CFO asking for access to the reimbursement system (don’t ask me, I don’t really get it myself). We’re a relatively small company, around 500 people, which is apparently why we need approval from the CFO herself.

    Anyway, I sent the email on Monday … And I haven’t heard anything. *sigh* I’ll try sending another email next Monday, but I’m not crossing my fingers.

    1. Seeking Second Childhood*

      A co-worker just got out of a product-training training class because her project is behind schedule. (And it’s totally documented that it’s someone else’s fault too.)
      What boggles my mind? THERE IS NO TRAVEL BUDGET. They wanted her to drive 140 miles to an all-day class and then turn around and drive back. This was acceptable for the other co-worker attending, but SHE is only driving 20 miles!
      First time we’ve been glad that our Fergus missed a deadline and made one of us miss ours.

    2. International Holding, Unlimited*

      Dude, both my current and previous jobs were 150-170 people, and we had direct access to reimbursement forms. That’s not a small company problem, that’s a bureaucracy problem.

      Good luck getting reimbursed, though! I don’t think I commented, but I definitely was a silent vote for “request reimbursement.”

  49. Umbra Lup*

    I’m trying to get better at interviewing recent grads for our entry-level positions in a fairly analytical profession. Everyone we interview is already good at math – what’s more difficult to discern is stuff like attention to detail, project management, willingness and proactiveness in adhering to Q/C processes instead of cutting corners, strong writing, and actually learning the field, which involves a combination of legal knowledge and its own type of mathematics.

    The learning curve is pretty steep and it takes about six months to a year before we get a real sense if someone’s going to work out or not, so it’s important to hire well. We never give any exercises, math or writing, to candidates – I would, if it were up to me, but it isn’t. I’m not the hiring manager, just one of several members of the department who will participate in interviews.

    The people we interview all have bachelor’s degrees in our field or adjacent, have passed at least two professional exams, and typically have had an internship or even 1-2 years of previous work experience in an adjacent field, so there are things to ask about, but a track record of accomplishments isn’t really what we’re looking for. I usually ask about concrete examples they can point to that demonstrate how they learn and communicate, but I’m wondering if there’s more that I could do. Any ideas would be helpful.

    1. AndersonDarling*

      One of the most effective interview questions I was asked was “Tell me why you like working with ____?” where the blank was the main software I used. You could also substitute the field you work in, or the department’s work.
      This started a rolling conversation and I really had a chance to shine with my knowledge, experience, and some good stories. The interviewer would ask some prodding questions to steer me in specific directions. And it was a great chance to show off my communication skills and passion.
      Asking something open ended will separate the folks who just want a job and the people who really enjoy what they do.

    2. macaroni*

      I’d pull a bit on “how they learn” and ask “what do they turn to for help”. Do they look to the textbooks? Do they ask google? Are there various website forums known in your field? Do they ask people? There’s not necessarily a right/wrong answer here, but it would speak to their process.

      1. Umbra Lup*

        Thanks macaroni! That’s actually exactly what I do – sorry I didn’t explain that well! Good to know I was on the right track with that one.

  50. in the file room*

    I’m a Canadian fed, and I have just HAD IT with Phoenix issues. I became a permanent / indeterminate employee in December last year, and I’m still trying to get them to pay my MSP premiums and stop overpaying me fot something else. I call every week just to hear them tell me that even though my case is “assigned” nobody has taken any action. It’s enough to frustrate even the most patient person. Thankfully I’ve been granted a hold on my insurance billing by MSP, but it’s beyond absurd at this point.

    And all the while, you hear stories about how everyone employed by the pay centre is a temporary employee, that turnover is high, that they won’t hire more people to get through the 220 000 existing pay problems. I’m full of rage, and there’s hardly anywhere to direct it. Certainly not at the call centre employees, who probably have to take a wild amount of abuse over this while not being able to fix it. I can’t even really even be mad at the compensation advisors that are supposed to fix it, since they’re so overloaded. I’ll be taking it to my all-candidates meeting, but I’m not hopeful.

    (For those unfamiliar, I’ll reply with a link to the monthly backlog update.)

    2. paperpusher*

      I hear you. :( I haven’t had any major problems, but it’s such a big stack of minor ones that I just feel overwhelmed with the thought of trying to figure out what exactly they owe me. Last year I was hit owing a lot in taxes and I have no idea where that came from. If I enjoyed doing this stuff, I’d be an FI and make more money than I do.

    4. Canadian Jessie*

      Write to your MP. Copy your Ministers office. This has solved a few issues for people in my department. It doesn’t solve the huge backlog issue, but it may help solve *your* issue.

      It’s ridiculous that it needs to come to that, but, well.. paychecks are kind of important!

    5. Asenath*

      My sympathy. I’m not a fed, but I know a couple people who are. It’s absolutely appalling that they not only chose such an inadequate system, but that they can’t seem to solve the problems it’s created even now.

  51. Two week Holiday as an American?*

    My family is thinking about planning a solid 2-week vacation this coming summer. I’ve checked with the two co-workers who would be covering for me while gone and both said if I have the time I should take it. I’m still concerned with how this will look to co-workers and supervisor. My job is split across two sites and my schedule is inconsistent so most co-workers are actually not likely to notice that I’m gone that long since they’ll think I was at the other site for part of the time, but as an American how this looks still nags at me.
    Any advice or outside perspective is much appreciated!

    2. JimmyJab*

      I’m quite sure it will vary by work place. Personally, people do it here (US) and no one bats an eye! We have pretty generous vacation and it’s pretty common for folks to take a 2 week vacation.

    4. Donkey Hotey*

      Friend, I will respectfully offer to you that it has nothing to do with “being an American.” I’ve been lucky enough to take solid two-week vacations many times over the last decade and no one bats an eye. But that’s the jobs I’ve worked. It has everything to do with specific corporate culture.

      1. Mizzle*

        It actually has a lot to do with being American, because other countries have completely different norms for this. I’m “on the other side of the pond”, so to speak (i.e. Europe), and two weeks is seen as the minimum for a summer vacation. I believe there’s even a law stating that companies must allow their employees to take two weeks of their vacation consecutively at some point during the year.

    5. Anonymous Water Drinker*

      Do it! I take off 2 weeks every year and no one has ever said a word about it. Other employees do as well and again, no one says anything. (We are American company)

    6. ACDC*

      If you want to do it and your boss approves it, just do it! There’s nothing to worry about in regards to “how it looks.” It looks like someone is taking a vacation that they are entitled to.

    8. Mama Bear*

      If you have the time and Rome won’t burn without you, do it. We have managers here who take 3 weeks in the summer. Set up your backups/contingency plans and then check out of work entirely so you can enjoy your break.

    9. Seeking Second Childhood*

      American. It’s been a long time since I’ve managed to have a two-week holiday — but I’ve known people here long enough that they took THREE week vacations. I’m considering adding the first two days of January to my Christmas vacation which WOULD give me two weeks out of the office.
      DOOOO IT!
      The Europeans will say “why so short?”

    10. Lilysparrow*

      I think it’s less about the country and more about the field/industry.

      Two weeks off in a row has not been unusual in a bad way (though occasionally draws good-natured envious comments) anywhere I’ve ever worked (mostly law firms). My brother in tech does it every couple of years. My dad in banking/finance did it every couple of years. My husband in nonprofits does it less often, but has done it from time to time. Many of my inlaws in the auto industry do it fairly regularly, except the one guy whose entire identity is built around demonstrating how stressed he is as an excuse for his anger issues.

      The only obstacle or drawback has ever been making sure the work gets done, so it’s a crunch before and a lot of catchup after.

      I don’t know if norms in your industry are very extreme, but I really don’t think it’s a general expectation in American culture that a 2-week vacation reflects badly on you. I have been in the work world since 1993, and I have never seen it reflect badly on anyone.

      Enjoy your vacation!

    11. Asenath*

      Take it. I’m not an American, but I had such a habit built up of not taking the leave I was entitled to, that I was a bit anxious when I decided to take about five weeks for a trip to Australia. I did my planning – booked the time, got as much work done in advance as I could, typed up a kind of desk manual for my co-workers to use (my employer has a habit of never replacing anyone who’s away but leaving their nearest co-workers to figure out how to manage). I had a marvelous trip, the place didn’t fall apart without me, and no one even implied that I should have been taking my vacation time in smaller increments like everyone else does.

    12. LGC*

      Just because American laws allow employers to treat their workers like trash doesn’t mean they’re obligated to.

      My first hunch is that it’s fine to take that time if you have it available! Two weeks every so often (like every year) isn’t a big deal. Even your coworkers are saying it’d be fine. But that’s the general rule.

      I’ll speak as a supervisor – I’m fine with a two week vacation if I have coverage (which you do). I can’t speak on your specific company culture, but I don’t think that it’d be excessive for the vast majority of jobs (hell, in finance they MAKE you take two weeks off, right?).

  52. embarrassed strawberry without seeds*

    Just curious to see what people think of this.

    I read one of the last weeks’ posts about joking about abortion in the workplace–we have a similar work culture where people chat and joke around a lot but are for hte most part friendly.

    As a manager, where do u draw the line of what’s ok and what’s not ok to talk about while keeping the greater culture in mind where people DO talk and will joke around? 

    As a coworker/manager, I’d have no issue with people talking about whatever in their off time. But in the office, I’m a little stumped where the line is drawn. is it a personal decision? if someone is around to get offended?

    I sit beside a group of people who don’t report directly to me but I am a manager. Sometimes I join in on their non-work conversations and it’s all good, but sometimes I overhear their convos and i’m like WTF? A recent example is that one of the guys started talking about his favorite pornstar, and I was like…dude cut that out! He did back off and change teh topic but I can easily see this turning into something bigger where someone would get defensive and challenge their manager.. “if ABC is OK to talk about why not XYZ?” I’m questioning it myself (why was THAT uncomfortable to me?) but…I don’t know, it’s tricky.

    1. Emi.*

      Honestly, I think anything a reasonable person would classify as “edgy” is not a good fit for the workplace.

    2. Jules the 3rd*

      Basically: religion, sex, recreational drugs, bigotry and violence have no place in a professional work place that does not deal with these issues explicitly (eg a cannabis dispensary or porn website builder), though you can make *small* allowances for religion.

      The abortion stuff last week included punching a pregnant woman or throwing her down the stairs to cause an abortion, so you have both sex and violence. Porn star = sex.

      One thing to remember: when people push back, think before you respond about whether they are pushing in good faith or not. In good faith, engagement / explanation is ok, but bad faith and rules lawyering? You’ll never win, or even get to a decent resolution. They’ll only push the goal posts / boundaries until they trip you up or find a line that justifies doing what they want. For them, the response is ‘because I say so, and I’m the boss.’

      How to tell good faith from bad? The response relative to the egregiousness of the initial behavior. Porn star / ‘stop that!’ / questioning would be bad faith, as everyone should know porn references are not appropriate at most work places. Religion / ‘let’s not go there’ / questioning could easily be good faith in the US, where religion is often part of daily life. (My grocery store clerks often tell me to have a blessed day, US South…)

      1. embarrassed strawberry without seeds*

        One thing to remember: when people push back, think before you respond about whether they are pushing in good faith or not. In good faith, engagement / explanation is ok, but bad faith and rules lawyering? You’ll never win, or even get to a decent resolution. They’ll only push the goal posts / boundaries until they trip you up or find a line that justifies doing what they want. For them, the response is ‘because I say so, and I’m the boss.’

        How to tell good faith from bad? The response relative to the egregiousness of the initial behavior. Porn star / ‘stop that!’ / questioning would be bad faith, as everyone should know porn references are not appropriate at most work places. Religion / ‘let’s not go there’ / questioning could easily be good faith in the US, where religion is often part of daily life. (My grocery store clerks often tell me to have a blessed day, US South…)

        —

        that’s a really good way to look at it! FWIW the one who brought up the porn star wasn’t an ass about it. But I have def seen others who are like… “well your cat pictures are offensive too so you should stop taht” (that was said in jest, but I can see someone really thinking that way).

      2. Fikly*

        Politics should also be on this list. Simply because it’s waaaay too divisive, and unless you’re working on a political campaign or something, it’s not work relevant.

  53. NeonDreams*

    I can not wait until I have a job where I don’t have to be on the phone dealing with the public all day. It’s so stressful. Unfortunately it’s about to get much busier because of multiple events. I’m still applying to other positions, but waiting to hear back is maddening. (Sigh). Just feeling impatient right now.

      1. NeonDreams*

        Love the play on words in your screen name!
        Trying to hold on as best I can. I’m on year 5, combined between contracting and full time at the same company. I’m bored out of my mind because it doesn’t challenge me in ways I want to be challenged. I’ve figured out the ins and outs (except in one department but that’s a story for another day.) I go on auto pilot almost. I just want to have work assignments and be left alone to do them.

  54. annoyed at my core team and need advice*

    The other day I completed a work assignment. I am under no obligation to get it approved by anyone except 2-3 stakeholders. however i asked people on my core team, ppl with the same job as me, for feedback on it. they gave me feedback. i usually don’t, but since this was a high-stakes assignment, asked additional people on our greater team with different but very related expertise too. and i showed one of the stakeholders. after all their feedback, i went back to my core team as a courtesy and said i showed it to a few more people and here’s where I netted out. one of them was clearly annoyed that i went in a direction she didn’t agree with but said “the train left the station after all those final approvals.” they were all annoyed that i went to a few more ppl than usual and said this is not the way our work should get done. they were acting like i needed their approval. their opinion runs counter to the culture our leadership is trying to foster; one of collaboration, mutual trust, and assuming positive intent. i was so annoyed and now i feel like they put me in the doghouse. they want to talk about this in person. allllll the other ppl on our greater team and partners in other teams really like me and say i’m collaborative and i push for what i believe in at the same time.

    1. Jules the 3rd*

      well, if you’re going to ask for feedback, it does make sense to ask for it when it could be included in the final product. Asking after seems like you just wanted their time for a check off.

      1. annoyed at my core team and need advice*

        their final thoughts still could’ve been included in the final product if it didn’t change it fundamentally. i only got “approval” from the one stakeholder but it was far from being set in stone/delivered. it was closer to being done but they could’ve looked again at the next draft.

  55. Operation Glowing Symphony*

    I quit my job on Wednesday! Want to know what chaos and lack of leadership look like? People quitting!

    Background: I was hired in Oct and knew the Ex DIrector would retire at the end of the year. From there so many changes, chaos and unknowns arose that it became hard to do my job and connect with the mission. My co-workers are awesome and I love my responsibilities, but leadership challenged my desire to stay.

    Dec: ED retired
    Jan: Hired new ED whose nonprofit experience is only in marketing/communications (we’re a $1.8M nonprofit).
    March: Hired new Dev Director (after a 7-mos vacancy and during an ED transition). Has no fundraising or non-profit experience.
    May: Staff participates in SWOT assessment. It never referenced again so why did we do it?
    June: Coworker goes on maternity leave
    July: ED emails us that we’re losing 3 offices to downsize and save money. I volunteered to move to a smaller office to start the ball rolling. We don’t receive notice of the move until a Saturday email lands in our boxes noting we’re moving on Monday as the landlords will build a wall later in the week. We then realize our coworker, on maternity leave, isn’t allocated an office. Where will she sit? To say the least the transition didn’t go smoothly.
    July: Began a major fundraising event, for my coworker on maternity leave, that I’d never managed before (it’s hard – kudos to Event Managers)
    July: office manager retired; Program Director resigned (we’re down to 5 staff, 4 in the office)
    August: Office Manager not replaced, instead I’m asked to take over duties until they decide what they want to do (I negotiate a nominal hourly raise). Yet, I’m not able to do many of the tasks as I’m working on a major fundraising event. ED and DD help out
    August: Hire Program Director (has previous brand and program experience)
    August: wrap up the fundraiser
    September: Go on a week vacation
    September: Coworker returns from maternity leave. ED suggests she takes a newly created office in the storage room, but the coworker needs to pump and hold phone calls for her job, so I offer my office and move to the front waiting area (2nd office move in 2 months).
    September: I attempt to resume office manager duties but by that time the ED and DD, who have been doing some of the tasks, decide to hire a contractor instead and ask me to train her (* breaking point *)
    September: A coworker has a job offer

    The ED and DD formed a strong alliance, probably because they must rely on each other to get through the organization’s history and move forward. Unfortunately, this causes a wedge between them and the Program Director and staff. They don’t include the Program Director in leadership meetings/discussions until it’s too late (and she resigns) and now they’re treating the new Program Director in a similar manner. The DD and PD are often at odds with how things will be done while the ED fades to the background and doesn’t lead.
    We lack plans, direction, goals, and focus, something I asked the ED to focus on when she asked for her 90-day assessment in March. It never materialized. I’ve said the same thing to the DD so this isn’t new news. These things are important to me to be successful (I’m not the only person to be frustrated by this). Background note: I’ve been in non-profit for 20 years and worked every role to include ED and DD. My expectations aren’t high or out of bounds, but I know what it takes to join a new organization and lay the foundation and the foundation is missing here.

    While we’ve all voiced our frustration in staff meetings and one-on-one, we turn to each other for support which exacerbates the wedge.

    On Wednesday, I asked for a meeting to discuss the hiring of a contractor – they say it’s a ‘virtual admin’ but she works in our office and uses our computers? I’m sure my questions came across as investigative, but they want me to do something I’m don’t feel is appropriate for my role and responsibility as a part-time/hourly employee. I asked about the contract set-up. Based on their responses, I felt the risk was too great and I said I wouldn’t train her or spend time in that capacity. They were shocked as up to this point, I’d been their swiss army knife and team player to show them how it’s done since they weren’t doing it themselves. Yes, I went insubordinate and I knew it could lead to being fired or quitting. I also knew that if said yes, the situation would get deeper and murkier – it always did. Note: The virtual assistant has the authority to approval hourly staff online time submissions, access to online fundraising platform and donor database as well as our internal documents. She has an open-ended contract, an hourly wage that doesn’t reflect expansion or contraction of services provided, uses our office/resources, and requires ‘training’ to use our systems. That all negates contract concept and if she wanted to, she could file misclassified and the organization would be liable for the back taxes and/or fine if it were proven we did it with intent (but I’m chalking this up to the ED and DD’s naivete).

    So that’s when I said, ‘This isn’t working anymore. I can’t continue to work in this chaos. My last day is next Thursday.” Why not 2 weeks? I wanted them to experience the chaos we have. Yes, I thought about my coworkers but the one who would be taking up most of the slack has a new job but hasn’t announced it yet while waiting to sign the contract.

    Statements that stand out
    – ED: Well how many contractors have you worked with? Me: I’ve been a contractor three times, hired them, worked with them and prepared their taxes so I’m familiar with misclassified employees and the risk that comes with that. ED: Well you haven’t worked with the contractors I have! (That explains why we’re in this situation).

    – ED: You’re military, you know ‘need to know basis’ (um ok? What part is classified information?)

    – ED: If anyone wakes up every day in chaos, it’s me. To which I responded, You get paid 6-figures to manage chaos (and I turned to the DD) and you get paid a high 5-figures to manage it too. We (staff) don’t get paid to manage chaos (and the Prog Director gets paid a lot less than the DD and is a program manager and program director in one)

    Neither has talked to me since

    1. Operation Glowing Symphony*

      OH and we were also presented with our new job descriptions (in development) and mine is nothing like it was. While I expected it to change in order for me to do the 40% part which is communications (marketing, social media) I would need some training investment to improve and know the latest greatest. Apparently of the staff development budget (we don’t have a budget for individual professional development?), half has been expended on the ED and DD conference attendance and the ED’s year-long city leadership/networking course. Yet the remainder is allocated already and no one knows what it’s for.

      Worse for my coworker who went from primary event management to donor stewardship? She’s perplexed (but on her way out :)

    2. Auntie Social*

      I am SO proud of you!! And I’ll have cake and champagne for you next Thursday, so you can tell us the details about your last week.

    5. WellRed*

      Yes! I’ve been following this saga. I’m only sorry your coworker came back from maternity leave, I was hoping she wouldn’t.

      “If anyone wakes up every day in chaos, it’s me.”
      Spare us all from the managers who tell us how difficult they have it. As you pointed out, that’s what they are paid for. And hers is obviously her own fault.

      1. Operation Glowing Symphony*

        Hey there- yes you have seen the saga (once titled under highly adjectived fruit and veg)

        She has a 2nd interview on Monday (but the job is a lock) and could give notice as early as next week (and I want so much to be there, but of course it’s not in my decision).

        Our new Programs Director, only been with us a month, wants to leave but knows she’ll have to stay on for a bit in order to successfully do that. Our most established coworker has been wanting to leave, too.

    6. fhqwhgads*

      I’m still stuck on how the hell did this happen?
      Hired new Dev Director (after a 7-mos vacancy and during an ED transition). Has no fundraising or non-profit experience.

      1. Operation Glowing Symphony*

        We wonder, too. Theories are
        1. New ED didn’t know how to hire or what she needed.

        2. DD knows a Board member (we know this is true) who might have pitched her hard.

        3. A veteran DD applied for the job, but was passed over because she lived in a nearby city but didn’t know local players and didn’t have local area netwrok. FYI – the ED has been in this city all her life and has the contact list that the experienced DD could have used.

        4. Bamboozled: current DD pitched a glowing plan she can’t execute (I’ll give her that this place had some hidden gems to uncover and she had the business background to unearth them to discover we had over $100k in unfunded programs we were paying for).

        She doesn’t even know what AFP is and showed this when my coworker asked to renew her AFP membership in order to do her new job. The DD said she didn’t know enough about AFP to make a decision; so she’s not a member of AFP! ?!

        She also wants to outsource grantwriting and events because she doesn’t know how to do them and would rather focus on things she likes to do. Wouldn’t we all!

  56. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

    Any tips for surviving early pregnancy at work, specifically in a travel-heavy, client-facing role? I just found out last week and while I couldn’t be happier, I have no idea how I’m going to push through this fatigue and morning sickness and keep up a brave face at work!

    1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      Lovely news!

      Honestly, though? The first trimester is The Worst. Stock up on ice, gingernuts and hard mints. When you find out what you can eat (for me it was one specific sandwich from one specific deli, or pears, or plain pasta) Eat That Thing, even if spouse is bored with it and it isn’t perfectly balanced. Go to bed early. Take weekend naps. Take trains instead of driving, if you can doze on trains.

      And I’m reminded by an earlier comment of vapour rub products under your nose to block out triggering smells – that would definitely apply on public transport, but also in meetings with people who wear All The Cologne.

      Layers of clothing, if temperature makes things worse.

      Best of luck!

      1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        Fortunately I’m not having too many food aversions yet, and I’ve learned I need to just literally be constantly eating to keep the nausea at bay. Layers of clothing is a good idea, it’s cold already here so I work a thick sweater yesterday, then had a 90 minute meeting in a sweltering conference room.

        1. Bloopmaster*

          Needing to eat constantly to keep the nausea at bay sounds just like me (and it’s awful). As someone who put off using drugs for the nausea for much longer than I should have, I definitely think it’s worth trying unison+vit b and requesting the prescription version if it’s not doing the trick. Another thing: if you are traveling frequently, I’d take extra steps to prevent motion sickness (for me this make nausea much worse and at one point triggered unstoppable vomiting that got me hospitalized): those wrist band things or special glasses or anything else you can think of.

    2. Another JD*

      If you can nap during lunch, it helps. I ended up asleep on the couch by 8:30/9 most nights in my first trimester.

    3. Parenthetically*

      I:
      — kept a bottle of peppermint oil and dabbed it under my nose and on the back of my neck.
      — drank a caffeinated drink at lunch (it had to be COLD and FIZZY) to help me power through the afternoon
      — took a nap at every opportunity

      First trimester is so hard. Sending you lots of energy and persistence to power through it!

      1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        Thanks! So far I’ve found that lime sparkling water is the only beverage that helps!

        1. Arielle*

          If you have a Trader Joe’s, they have a lemon ginger sparkling water that was an absolute lifesaver for me in the first trimester! I also took B12 for nausea which I believe helped a lot. Best of luck and congrats! As someone sitting at 38 weeks, first trimester really sucks, so be gentle with yourself and take it easy.

        2. Parenthetically*

          With my son, I could literally only drink ice cold fizzy things! It was mostly sparkling water, but I’m telling ya, a frosty Coke or Dr. Pepper at lunchtime tasted like HEAVEN.

    4. Dealtwiththis*

      I’m going through this right now too so you are not alone! I have found that Starbursts work for me and I’m buying them almost in bulk. I put one in my mouth when I feel I am about to vomit and it distracts me for a while. Just looks like I’m snacking on candy to coworkers. The preggie pop drops also work but are much larger and hurt the roof of my mouth after a while.

      Lemonade sipped through a straw also helps and I try to have it constantly with me. I also constantly have ritz crackers and dry plain corn flakes with me and force myself to eat them when I feel I am going to be sick.

    5. Seeking Second Childhood*

      A friend figured out that when she thought “everything” was making her queasy, it was one particular spice. I’m not going to name it because power of suggestion is real. Just if you find yourself at that point, there could be a common element.
      Plan quiet time for yourself on the road, even if it’s as simple as keeping a snack & your knitting in the trunk so when you find a highway rest stop during rush hour, you can sit out the worst at a picnic table.

    6. Lilysparrow*

      When I was having a lot of nausea, my midwife looked over my food diary and told me that I needed more meat in my diet to stabilize everything (blood sugar, maybe? Not sure now). I was getting plenty of protein, but tended toward dairy and plant sources.

      I don’t know if you’re a meat eater or not, but if it’s possible for you, it absolutely worked. Drastically reduced the frequency and intensity of my nausea. I have heard since from many other people this also helped.

    7. Policy wonk*

      Congrats!! I used sea-bands (accu-pressure wrist bands developed for sea sickness) candied ginger, saltines, and kept a personal fan at hand. (Moving air made a difference for me.) Good luck.

  57. Simply Confused*

    My boss has a terrible habit of committing faux pas (ranging from belittlement to serious policy violations) and then asking me how I feel about her actions. I’m new to her department and in a very competitive field. I know this isn’t sustainable, so I’m job hunting everyday. In the mean time, how do I handle this bizarre behavior to make my life at work more tolerable? The more I challenge my boss, the more vicious she becomes. Help!

    2. Margery*

      You know you’ll be getting out of there – so meantime make it easier for yourself – agree with her all the time, kill her with kindness etc etc. I was in a similar position a few years ago and it was fantastic when I left. I still see her sometimes in town and I’m always nice to her face but she’s a manipulative, nasty woman. There’s no point in showing your hand though.

    3. juliebulie*

      Have you any idea what her goal is in asking “how you feel”? Does she seem insecure and looking for validation, or do you think she’s challenging you to disagree with her?

      (I just realized that “how do you feel” would be harder for me to answer than “what do you think.”

      Of course, “hungry” is a feeling, so maybe that’s an option too.

    4. Thankful for AAM*

      Can you just repeat her question?
      You want to know how I feel? or You want to know how I feel about what you just said/did?
      Answer: some version of, I don’t have feelings about work.

  58. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

    Techniques to reduce nerves while answering questions during a job interview — what would you suggest?
    I interviewed for a promotional opportunity last week, and my excess nervous energy definitely came through while I was answering the questions. I stammered at times, I spoke too quickly at times, I was overanxious at times. Even though I’m confident my actual answers were on the money, I could tell I lost the interviewers pretty quickly, and I didn’t get the job.

    I know that for prominent positions, my library system looks for people who are really self-assured and can present themselves well. I’ll be the most prepared person in the room every time, but definitely not the most confident! Every opportunity for promotion is going to go through these same people, who (like most interviewers, I guess?) might be more concerned with how I deliver the message than the actual message itself. I need to do better next time. But how?

    1. Overeducated*

      Being really exhausted or so positive I won’t get the job that I’m not even nervous has helped me in the past…ymmv, better luck next time!

      1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

        I kind of like that… for better or worse, I didn’t sleep much the night before this particular interview!

    2. Kat*

      I have the same tendency to come across as jittery even when I am feeling confident so I’m interested in tips too! Its very frustrating. I do LOTS of practice which helps somewhat. I practice out loud answers to the questions I think they’ll ask but trying to talk about 20% slower than I feel is necessary. And it still only helps a little.

      1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

        I’ve done mock interviews and they’re helpful to practice answers to common questions! The problem is that I almost never am able to correctly anticipate exactly which questions I will get. And you identified the exact boat I am in — I inwardly feel confident but still come across as jittery.

        1. Kat*

          Its like a purely physical response right? My hands shake, my face/neck turns red (I literally wear turtlenecks to give presentations) and my voice gets high-pitched and wavery as soon as I start talking. Emotionally I feel confident, prepared and often am even looking forward to the interview/presentation/training/whatever but my body decides to go into “nervous wreck” mode. I wonder if there is some kind of cognitive-behavioral therapy or hypnosis or something that could help?

          1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

            Yes, you nailed it exactly!
            Yikes though, I was kind of (naively?) hoping there might be a simpler answer than therapy or popping pills before the interview.

            1. Kat*

              I took a public speaking class in college and practiced and practiced my 6 minute minimum presentation. It ended up being like 3 1/2 minutes I talked so fast.

    3. Sassy Spacek*

      Personally I got very nervous in library interviews and had to ask the doctor for beta blockers. With their help I could finally focus on looking confident and outgoing which is what they really look for.

      1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

        Interesting. Somehow I didn’t know about beta blockers, even though I am unfortunately developing high blood pressure (probably from work stress). I learned something new. Thank you.

        1. Business Librarian*

          I totally agree with beta blockers. My doctor was very familiar with writing a prescription for a small handful for just this reason.
          I think your body is betraying you and then your anxiety spikes when you feel your face get red, etc., then you’ve got a feedback loop. I had to do a presentation for a very large crowd and I got the beta blocker because my voice will tremble under stress. I’ve given hundreds of presentations and had no worry about it going well, I just was worried about freaking out if I heard my voice tremble! I actually didn’t feel any different so it’s possible it was more me relaxing when I knew the voice thing wasn’t going to happen.

    4. LivingMyLife*

      Think about the common questions that are asked and think of examples for each one from my personal experience. That way you have a short answer and then a story for each question. This works for me. It shows that I have experienced this situation and was able to handle it successfully.

      Also, tell yourself that you already have a job, and this new job will be great to get, but that you are not desperate. I mentally distance myself and then see it as an exercise in communicating well. Good luck! I just got a job offer a week and a half ago. It was my first interview for this round of my job search.

      1. LivingMyLife*

        Another point, when I am asked to tell about myself, I create a five point answer focusing on what the position is requiring. Each point is short, but to the point. (Just realized I used too many “points” here. LOL)

  59. Emi.*

    So, new overtime rules! I had been waiting and waiting for the open thread to ask you all to help me explain Vox’s flowchart, which didn’t make sense to me at all, and discovered this morning that they just printed it backwards.

    Is this affecting anyone here’s pay or workplace? I remember some people saying they had gotten raises back when it was a proposed rule but some hadn’t, and some people were maybe going to get their raises pulled.

  60. Kat*

    I have my first student employee (work-study) and am wondering if anyone has tips for managing student workers. She works for me 10 hours a week. My job is a very low-level but very busy support position in an administrative department at the university and my employee is learning to help with some simple but time-consuming tasks – printing documents and tracking down signatories, compiling mailings, etc – as well as some database research. So far she’s been awesome – quick learner, asks good questions, very reliable. I’m just not sure what I should be doing beyond training her in the job duties. We are pretty much in constant communication about work when she is here, but should I also schedule regular check-in meetings as her manager? Something else? I know some of my colleagues become very close with their work-studies and serve in a mentoring role, but I don’t know if that is appropriate because, again, I’m very low-level and this is not a field that she would be interested in career-wise.

    1. macaroni*

      Regular check-ins are great. These can be low-key where she just asks questions and be short (15 mins if you don’t have much to talk about), but it can give a space to ask things that aren’t necessarily related to anything else or might not come up in the regular course of things.

    2. WellRed*

      Eh, not everything has to be all mentor-y. Model professional norms and check in with her, but even or especially with work study, sometimes a job is just a job. It’s not an internship.

      1. Kat*

        This is where I was leaning too. I love my job (because it is easy but interesting and requires 0% of my mental energy outside of a 40 hour work week) but it is nothing anyone would aspire to! These extremely bright talented students we work with should honestly be aiming much higher! I’m hoping that she has a good experience because she is earning a paycheck by doing work that is greatly appreciated in a pleasant environment with friendly co-workers.

    3. Long-time AMA Lurker*

      Something that helped me in college was having my supervisor model how I could describe my work on a resume so it seemed more appealing. Give her the best verbiage possible when she’s done to describe her time there, and be EXPLICIT that she can use you are a reference! Asking for references can be scary, and knowing that you have a fan honestly means the world, especially when you are looking for your first job out of college.

      1. Kat*

        This is a great idea. I’ll start a list of things that she learns and accomplishes so that she can walk away with great resume bullets.

    4. OtterB*

      Don’t go overboard with appreciation, but be sure to tell her, with specifics, what she’s doing right. Even if it’s not the field she wants to pursue, it’s still office norms.

    5. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Suggest she keep track of the tasks that she masters, things that were difficult, PEOPLE who were difficult, etc. That notepad (or text file) will be a resource to use in future “tell me about a time when” questions.
      Another thing that I wish I’d done is to work on time estimation: when assigned a task, write down how long you think it’s going to take, and then check your watch when you start & when you’re done. Write it down — and see if you can get better over the semester.

  61. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

    Writing a cover letter for an internal application: I have a talent acquisition contact name for the role. Do I do “Dear John Q. Hiring” as listed in the job req? “Dear John Hiring,” which seems less weird and formal? (Also, my company loves putting everyone’s middle initial everywhere, so I don’t know that John Hiring actually goes with the Q by preference.) “Dear John” as most coworkers address each other in emails? I’m overthinking like a champ here.

    2. Anobymous Coward*

      Sympathize — in the job req for one of my first temp jobs, “Margaret O’Hoolihan” was listed as the supervisor. When I showed up on my first day and asked for Margaret, I was greeted with blank faces all around. They actually took me to two different managers before someone said, “Oh, Peg!” Yeah, if you go by Peggy-o to everyone in the office, try giving the temp agency a heads-up.

    3. nym*

      When I wrote a cover letter to my current boss, I addressed it “dear hiring manager”. She told me later that she really appreciated that, because she had someone redact the names/signatures from cover letters and resumes before she saw them, and she would have known it was me if I’d used a name (we never publicize hiring managers’ names, and she knew I was in the applicant pool).

      Your workplace culture may vary.

  62. Overeducated*

    I think a coworker managed to pull something when I was on a work trip to take over our only interesting, high profile project entirely, leaving me with the routine messes and backlogs. This only became clear to me this week, as things appeared to me to be hold during a management transition earlier in the month, and now it’s a fait accompli.

    I’m so pissed off, and I’m afraid coworker is going to take my upcoming maternity leave as an opportunity to cut me out of more, given that I was only out of the office for two weeks this time! What’s worse, we’ll probably have a new manager come in during my leave, and who knows, maybe it’ll be that coworker. I need to figure out how to talk to my newest boss who hasn’t even had a full week on the job yet without sounding totally paranoid and petty. This project is probably too far along but I’d like her to know that before my trip our previous manager presented it as joint, and I am concerned about not being part of workload decisions that will be much longer term than the actual time I’m out of the office.

    Five former coworkers warned me about this person or had major issues with them, we’ve worked well together for over a year and now I’m like “….oh, maybe they weren’t all wrong.” Argh.

    1. WellRed*

      Five people warned you? Yeah, the coworker is a problem even if it took a while for them to reveal their true nature.

      1. Overeducated*

        Well, two said “coworker is lazy and takes credit for stuff” (not wrong, but not really my problem up until now as it hasn’t been hard to make it clear to my managers what I was getting done), one seriously disliked this person on a human level that I never learned the reason for…but two actually said words like “watch out” and “backstabbing.” I thought that was melodramatic, especially given that those two were both in a position of power over this person before they left. Now….

  63. Full of Wonder*

    I’m a professional who has a lot of skills that I’m good at, but I’m not specialized in just one thing. I’ve been reading about renaissance people, “humingbirds” and generalists, and am curious to know the best way to promote myself as I job search. From waht I’ve been reading, there seems to be a bit more of a need for generalists vs specialists, and I want to be able to really sell my strengths.
    Thanks!

    1. Nela*

      There are jobs that require a wide range of skills, so definitely aim for those when applying, and don’t bother with jobs that are clearly written with a narrow role in mind, or you will go bonkers in a job like that.

      The key to presenting yourself as someone with a wide range of skills and still being taken seriously is to have a dominant skill that you excel in. If you haven’t chosen which one that is, choose it now, learn as much as you can to improve, and lead with it. Demonstrate that you have plenty of experience and success with this skill. Then as you talk more about yourself, hint at your additional skills. Don’t leave the impression of someone who performs many different things at a mediocre level. Even if you’re good at many things, people may be skeptical of that.

      Small business, start-ups, and non-profits typically need folks who can wear different hats more often than corporations or governmental organizations. Having many skills is also very beneficial when starting your own business, if you’re at all interested in that. However even then, clients prefer to see you as someone really knowledgeable about one thing, with an added bonus of other complementary skills. That’s my experience, ymmv.

      1. Nela*

        To add: if you can’t decide what your dominant skill will be, don’t overthink it, just pick any one that you’re already very good at. You can change your mind and organically switch to a different thing. I know some folks of the older generation may think it’s flaky, but it’s not so strange in today’s economy.

      2. Filosofickle*

        Nela’s advice is right on.

        Here’s an example of the “dominant skill” suggestion:
        I used to be a visual designer. Later on, I moved into brand strategy, picked up content and research skills, then got an MBA. When I graduated and started looking for work, I said I was a Designer / Strategist / Writer, a “triple threat” I thought was a valuable combination. Nope! The response was usually…ok…but what ARE you? Being multiple things confused them. So I reframed the story to put one thing at the center and support it with the others: I’m a strategist (my dominant skill) and one of the reasons I’m great at strategy is I have experience with the business inputs to strategy (business, research) as well as the creative implementation of it (writing, design).

        So then I was “one thing” and everyone understood me a lot better.

        1. Nela*

          Great example! :)

          I too started my career off as a designer and front-end coder (a common combination among early website designers), whereas now as a part of my client work I do brand identity design, WordPress websites, brand strategy, content marketing strategy (not implementation as I only have two hands…), and training teams on these topics. However I still lead with the identity design role because it’s my top skill and I have the most proof that I do a great job in this area. Once you show them you’re really good at one thing, they believe you that you’re also good at the other things you claim.

          1. Filosofickle*

            Ugh, I remember a conversation with an agency guy. First, he said I had “potential” (I was 37 with 15 years of experience and a new MBA.) F- off, dude. Second, he said it’s “not credible” that I do all three things well. I could back it up with references and portfolio, but you’re right that people will not readily believe you can do lots of things very well. It was a frustrating conversation, but worth it to learn that something may be true but that doesn’t mean people will find it credible.

  64. EnfysNest*

    I’m looking for job suggestions. I currently work as a construction project manager for a government agency and while I’m very content with my pay and benefits… I’m really growing to dislike the work itself. I have a degree in architectural engineering, a program I chose because I wanted to combine my enjoyment of both creativity and math. But my current job is just reviewing contracts and checking up on basic construction projects – I don’t get to do anything particularly creative, I almost never get to use my higher math training, and often I don’t feel like my degree is even necessary to do the job.

    I want to start looking for something new, but I barely even know where to begin. I graduated nearly 7 years ago and went straight to work with this agency, so I don’t know that I would want to go back to an entry-level position with a standard engineering firm with no sense of normal hours, or if I’d even be considered compared to recent graduates who have all of their school knowledge more recently in their minds.

    The training I’ve been through for things like OSHA compliance and fire protection really fascinate me, and I’ve also been really interested in studying and applying ADA requirements to my projects, but I’m not sure how those would translate to a full-time job, again, other than trying to go back to an entry-level position with a firm. I love problem-solving, and I would love to find somewhere that I felt like I was really doing something productive.

    So are there any suggestions outside of a standard engineering design firm where I could apply my background and feel like I’m actually using my degree and coming up with solutions, rather than just sitting on the sidelines doing paperwork and organizing meetings? Or is my only real option to go back to entry level with a design firm?

    1. LadyTesla*

      I’m going through something similar. The advice I was given was to take time to identify the aspects of work you want.

      You mentioned here that you want to be a maker, or a creator. Maybe something such as being an architect or similar would be a better fit?

    2. AnotherAlison*

      I’m reading a lot between the lines here, but it sounds like you do more contract administration than construction management. I work for a big EPC contractor (engineering office side), and our construction managers are boots on the ground leading the team and solving problems. I’m picturing that you may be the person who comes from the client to make sure we’re doing what we’re supposed to be doing. Building the work is pretty interesting, and I wonder if that would be a fit that you find more productive.

      As far as higher math and using your degree, the degree is a starting point. Your job is not out of line for career paths for ArchEs, but it’s not too late to pivot. I do think there could be more opportunities to do different things in a firm like mine. Some people I know have migrated from traditional engineering towards careers building analytical software tools to support our project controls. One of my peers started as an structural design engineer, managed a multi-discipline estimate group, then managed our information management group. You could start back as an ArchE, but you may have to start close to entry level (probably like a 2 yr person) unless you network your way into a role. Most people seem to do the engineering for <10 yrs and then want to move on. We do interesting things, but after a certain amount of time, a building is a building, a pipe is a pipe, etc. If you're looking for something interesting and not entry level, I'd look for other lateral roles within the industry that use more analytical skills but are not pure engineering design work.

    3. Overeducated*

      Oh man, if you replace “architectural engineering” and “construction” with “science” and “field projects,” I could have written this post. I don’t really have an answer for you, but I think these feelings are really common in government.

    4. Llellayena*

      Maybe look at larger architectural/engineering firms that have internal qa/qc processes. Get into the firm as a design compliance reviewer and you can probably grow into a role where you also work on design solutions.

    5. Ranon*

      Since you mention you’re interested in the ADA/ OSHA/ compliance side, have you considered going the code enforcement route? On the receiving end of the enforcement sometimes it feels like they’re creating the problems, but some of the best ones I’ve worked with are also interested in working with me to find solutions. Plus government job with regular hours and benefits. In Texas there’s also the Registered Accessibility Specialist if you wanted to have an ADA focus, our favorite reviewer does design meetings with us as well as inspections so we can fix the problems when they’re still on paper and cheap to fix.

  65. Dotty*

    Is there a way I can put my hat in a ring for an internal job that’s not yet advertised?

    I found out today that a Department Director is leaving – after only 4 months in post. I didn’t apply for the role when it was advertised as there was another advertised at the same time. I didn’t get that post but was told I was second – I’m not sure if they meant it or were just saying it to let me down gently.

    Now that this role will be vacant, I didn’t know if I could signal interest in it. The reason I’m reluctant to wait for an advert is that the role was new – for the person to leave so quickly and it was difficult to recruit for (he was the only internal applicant) makes me wonder if they’ll post it or just scrap/re-focus the role but that if they knew someone was interested, maybe they’d consider…

    Don’t want to look like I’m trying to strong-arm my way in either…

    1. OtterB*

      I would tell the most logical management contact (the position’s supervisor, probably, but could be someone else depending on your organization and your relationships) that you’re interested in the position and do they know when it will be advertised?

    2. ACDC*

      I don’t think it would be an over step at all to email or talk to Dept. Director’s manager just saying something along the lines of “Hey I heard John is leaving, and I’m not sure what your plans are to back fill the role, but I would love to be considered!”

    3. AnotherAlison*

      Yes, it definitely makes sense to talk to TPTB about this proactively. Depending on how everything is structured, consider how you address wanting this role now and applying for the other role before. I think you want to make it known that you applied for another role and that’s why you didn’t apply before (assuming it’s different reporting structures and the new manager wouldn’t know your history), but also make sure you have the story laid out of why it was “X” and not “Y” at the time. (Esp. important if the roles are really different, like an SME vs. Department Director.)

  66. Steggy Saurus*

    I have a boss (who’s generally great and very hands off) who doesn’t really run meetings, per se. As a result, a continued area of annoyance for his direct reports keeps being brought up in our biweekly meetings during which everyone piles on the incompetent department that frustrates us. The problem is, it’s the same set of complaints meeting after meeting and our boss does nothing to shut it down. It’s gotten to the point that these meetings are ruining the rest of my day. Since it’s unlikely my boss is going to change and start running meetings in a more productive way, would it be out of line for me to suggest to my colleagues that we put a moratorium on what I’ve come to call “the standard [bad department] bitch session?” If you think it’s okay to suggest it, should I do it separately to my colleagues or propose it during a meeting?

    1. macaroni*

      Do the meetings have agendas? If not, can you bring up during one of those meetings that you feel it would get more done if there were agendas? If there are, can you bring up sticking to the agenda to make sure everything gets accomplished?

      1. Steggy Saurus*

        In theory there’s an agenda, and there’s usually something relevant related to the annoying department on it. The problem is, once the annoying department is brought up, we all descend into the giant pile on. I mean, I could bring up sticking to the agenda, but I feel like that might be overstepping my bounds and trying to tell my boss how to do his job. Honestly, most people in my workplace desperately need training on how to run a meeting, but I don’t think that’s for me to say. Hence, trying to find a polite way to stop the toxic spiral.

        1. Dr. Anonymous*

          I’ve heard a lovely expression I sometimes use for these moments: “gosh, I think we’ve chewed all the Chiclet off that gum.” Works if anyone’s old enough to remember Chiclet gum. It’s just mildly funny and also says you’re kind of done hearing this.

  67. WhiteBear*

    I’m just here to vent: I’ve applied for government position, and along with my resume they asked me to provide my high school diploma. Well, that document appears to be lost in the abyss of my parents’ house, so instead I provided my university degree. Since I was born in the same province I went to primary school, high school, and university, and is where the position would be based out of, you would think that completion of a university degree would imply completion of high school or a GED. But nooooooooo, for whatever reason that’s not good enough. Its just so bizarre. The funny part is, I’ve kept my university certificate, and I know exactly where in my parents’ home you can find a box containing my Grade 8 graduation certificate and my kindergarten certificate, but high school? Not a clue. We couldn’t even find report cards past Grade 9. Maybe I’m living in the matrix and never really attended high school, maybe it was all a fever dream. So now I’m chasing down documentation from my high school, unless this job will accept Grade 12 yearbook photos as proof I finished high school. Like, if this was really that important, most reasonable workplaces would simply ask for the name and location of my high school, and would call them up themselves to confirm I finished high school, or have it as part of their background check. All this for a job I’m not totally sure about, so it just feels like a lot of unnecessary hullabaloo. Thank you for letting me rant about my first world problem :)

    1. Jules the 3rd*

      That’s pretty weird – I’ve never had anyone ask for a degree below whatever my current terminal one was.

      1. WhiteBear*

        Right? At first I thought maybe the job requirements are more experience-based and they don’t care what kind of post-secondary education you have. But they really want to see the diploma, I sent my transcript and the person currently in the position was like “I hope this will be enough.” I mean, I can provide you with facebook photos from graduation but other than that I really don’t know how else I can prove I finished high school :p

    2. Mama Bear*

      Very strange, if you have a university degree. Will they take anything like a transcript from the school?

      1. WhiteBear*

        I got my transcript from my high school today (luckily I still live close by). The person currently in the position is hoping that will be enough for her superior/hiring manager, if not they can call up some of my school buddies I guess…

    3. Tau*

      Much sympathy! I found myself regularly driven mad by people demanding my high school results in my first job search after uni. Not only did I have not one, not two, but three university-level degrees to trot out instead (Bachelor’s, Master’s, PhD), but I’d gone to high school in a different country with a different grading scheme… meaning the certificate was pretty much meaningless to them unless I sent along a conversion key. Thankfully, that seems to have stopped now – and more thankfully, I hadn’t lost the certificate! Fingers crossed that you sort out yours.

    4. CheeryO*

      Oh hey, I think I had to do that when I applied for my state government job. I honestly can’t remember if I was able to find it or not, but I’d be surprised if they didn’t accept some other form of verification from your high school. I agree that it’s very unnecessary!

    5. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I’m very glad I never had that request. My high school had added two to the building without expanding the auditorium or the gymnasium. There were WAY more parents than could fit. So despite a rainy forecast, someone gambled on having graduation on the football field. The heavens opened up just before I was handed my diploma. Let us just say it was NOT waterproof. Mom offered to dry it out, but I never saw it again so apparently it was a lost cause.

      1. WhiteBear*

        See that’s something I wonder about: a lot of people are minors when they receive their high school diploma, and so a lot of people’s parents probably retain possession of those documents (usually so they can frame it, or in my parents’ case, intend to frame it but keep putting it off until its lost forever in the home office wasteland). What if your parents lose it? Won’t allow you to have it? They toss is accidentally?
        I love your story. No one thought to hand out fake diplomas for photos and crossing the stage and keep the real documents inside and protected from the elements? At least it was a truly useless piece of paper for you, I was hoping after university I would be in the same boat.

    6. Asenath*

      Very silly. In at least one province, high school graduation records ended up at the provinicial department of education (which I know because I used to work there). Education being under provincial jurisdiction, it’s pretty well certain that each province does its record-keeping differently, but try at the depatmental/Ministry level or even school board/district level.

    7. Stornry*

      “Government job”? Yep, unfortunately, they (we) have to go by the department/organization “RULES” as written or we risk getting accused of violating someone’s rights. It sucks but there it is – where would we be without our bureaucracy? It took years to get HR to update our official requirements to include non-US degrees.

  68. Moving Offices*

    My company is moving to an open office concept with no assigned desks (often called hot-desking or hoteling) in the next few months. I’m open to change but a little nervous about how it will work. Each station will have 1 monitor (most of us are used to using 2) and an outlet but not much else meaning we will bring our laptop, mouse, keyboard, charger, headset, notebook, etc everyday to our desks. Does anyone have any tips or recommendations for making this “hot-desking/hoteling” concept work well for them?

    1. Beth Jacobs*

      Oooof, pure hell I’d say. I had a similar concept at a part time job and what really helped were good headphones.

      I think the one advantage it had is that I didn’t have an opportunity to build up clutter on my desk. I had one binder for important documents but learned a lot how to keep everything else digital (notes, to do lists, etc.)

      I think it’s kinda like being in high school again. Keep the things you need (water bottle, mug, snacks, stationery, charger) in your locker.

    2. macaroni*

      Oh god, good luck.

      I’d ask for carts and lockers and stuff, so you can move things around and store overnight. And if you need a custom chair, make sure they know and you have a place to store it so no one else can use it.

    3. Jules the 3rd*

      And if you’re in a development role, ask them to switch to 2 monitors. Keyboards, mice, headset – everyone’s got different tastes, but 2 monitors is pretty standard for devs in my experience.

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      When I was the “wandering minstrel” trying to finish up a project despite earthquake damage to my building, I had a small cart for my physical materials. I set one filing box up as my “desk drawer” so I would have a place for the random little things we need during a day. A postcard somehow wound up in there one day and I took to propping it up on whatever desk I was working at that day. Silly, but helped me at least.
      I’d also suggest you pay careful attention to ergonomics — DO take company time to adjust the height of your seat & desk & keyboard because otherwise you’ll be taking PTO when your neck spasms. I found this out because one of the desks I was using was taller than normal… turns out it had been custom-made for a long-deceased 6’7″ executive. I’m reasonably tall, over 5’7″, but normal chair + huge desk = ergonomics nightmare.

  69. Miss Astoria Platenclear*

    Just venting:
    We were knocking boots in God’s country all week on the overhead radio . Company president apparently wants New Hit Country radio to be played, and the station has a teeny-tiny playlist.
    Come back, Kenny G, all is forgiven.

      2. Miss Astoria Platenclear*

        “Knocking Boots” by Luke Bryan and “God’s Country “ by Blake Shelton are two songs this station plays approximately every five minutes. “Knocking boots” means what you think it does. :-)
        It’s definitely not a “no repeat workdays “ type of radio station.

        1. Llama Face!*

          Oh my condolences! Repeat-y radio stations are one of my top pet peeves.
          Many years ago I worked for a small company and the guys in the office liked country (which I hate). I involuntarily memorized all the lyrics of that stupid song Picture by Kid Rock and whoever he dueted with. *shudder*

          1. valentine*

            Getting it on in Montana (regardless of the surface) sounds more appropriate than playing those songs at work.

  70. What’s with Today, today?*

    Rough 10 days in the small town news business.

    We had a 17-year-old old die in a car wreck last week. He hit a wild pig on his way to school and flipped his car. The guy that drove up on the scene, is a regular listener to our radio station, and he called for DPS and his second call was to me! I was on vacation, and its 6:45 a.m., but he only calls me with news stuff, so I answered, and he was screaming in panic and crying. It was not okay. I went ahead and worked because it was a bigger story and I needed to call the school district. Then, we had a horrific child abuse death this last week, a five-year-old. The child was on child support for several days before being removed, and his mom and her boyfriend are under arrest. It’ll probably Capital Murder but the charges haven’t been upgraded yet. The very next day, an 11-year-old short and killer herself, bullying a suspected factor. It’s just all bad.

    I’m just whining. It’s been a tough week. Not editing for grammar here, sorry in advance.

    2. Nessun*

      I’m so very sorry. I hope you have time this weekend for some solid self-care – blankets, warm drinks, pet cuddles, whatever that may look like.

    3. Anonymous Water Drinker*

      Oh gosh, you have had a rough 10 days. So sorry to hear all this. Take care of yourself and try to do something you enjoy or makes you happy/feel better.

    4. Miss Astoria Platenclear*

      Hugs, if wanted, from me too. Horrible events.
      Sounds like you are a respected local journalist and valued member of the community.

    5. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I assure you this is not whining — you’re mourning. It’s completely understandable. I’m so very very sorry for you & your community.

    6. Lilysparrow*

      Oh, that’s awful. I’m so sorry for all of them & the people who loved them, and for you being in the nexus of all that.

  71. Pam Beesly*

    I work on a small office. We have 7 outside sales reps who are in the office here and there, and 6 of us that are part of the interoffice staff (customer service, accounting, etc.) A new person, Angela joined our team about 2 months ago, and is part of the interoffice staff. She reports to the Sales Manager, Michael, but is in the office 100% of the time. The rest of us in the office report to Phyllis, who is the Operations Manager.

    Since Angela started, she has been wearing jeans every day. She doesn’t dress sloppy by any means – she pairs her jeans with a nice shirt and clean shoes. Everyone else in the office dresses business casual (i.e. no jeans) Monday through Thursday, but wears jeans on Friday. This is the dress code I was given when I started, which if I remember correctly was told to me by a previous manager, Kevin, who is no longer with the company. Angela asked me recently why no one else wore jeans, because Michael had been very clear when she started that jeans were acceptable every day of the week. I told her that when I started, I’d been told business casual was the dress code Monday through Thursday, with jeans being acceptable on Friday. Of course I told her to keep wearing jeans since her manager, Michael, had said that it was okay.

    My question is though, would it be okay for me to ask Phyllis if the rest of us can wear jeans Monday through Thursday too? If so, how should I pose my question? Phyllis can sometimes be power-trippy, and shut peoples’ suggestions down just for the sake of doing so. Other times, she is pleasant; you never know what you’re going to get with her. We all work in the office 100% of the time, and only see one or two customers a week (usually in passing – not for actual formal meetings). I feel like Angela shouldn’t be the only one allowed to wear jeans just because she has a different manager (to be clear, we’re all one team).

    The funny thing is that many of our outside sales reps who DO see customers on a regular basis wear jeans frequently. Also, we work in the jan-san industry, which is NOT considered a formal industry.

    1. Anonymous Water Drinker*

      I think you should ask and hope Phyllis is a pleasant mood. You can point out that the reps wear jean, too. I work in an office and we only get to wear jeans for special events (maybe 3/4 times a year).

    2. Submerged Tenths*

      What would happen if you just wore jeans to work one day? Worst case: Phyllis goes ballistic and you know jeans won’t work. Best case: nobody notices.

      I would lay money on nobody noticing.

      1. Pam Beesly*

        I should have included it in my post, but you are absolutely correct that no one would notice. I’ve considered many times just wearing jeans every day because I’m certain no one would notice, or give it another thought if I did. Maybe I’ll just start that way!

    3. Owler*

      I don’t know if I would ask Phyllis, because it might be hard to control the outcome as a real question versus tattling on Angela…which it sounds like is not your plan! If your goal is just to be able to wear jeans also, I would follow Valentine’s advice and just start wearing them. Agree with dark and keep the rest of your outfit inline with or slightly more dressy than what you’ve been wearing.

  72. Pieska Boryska*

    Advice on writing a cover letter for multiple jobs at the same company? Five total positions, two different job titles, but very similar responsibilities… My working strategy is to write one cover letter for all, noting that all of them look like a great fit and then get into my qualifications, which are pretty much the same for each one. Do you think that would avoid looking unfocused?

    1. BeeGee*

      I feel like I would avoid applying to too many roles at once at the same company, I did this recently and I think it ended up hurting me, even though all the jobs were applicable to my skills and experience. I would try and narrow it down to only two (or three at most), and typically most companies have practices where if they see you have skills applicable to another role they will reach out and ask if you have interest in that role.

      As far as cover letters, it’s probably fine to have them be similar, but I would tweak highlighting different skills/experience to exhibit how you would be a good fit with the job description/role in question if possible. That way it doesn’t come off that you’re just blasting any possible position they have a available.

      1. Pieska Boryska*

        Hmmm :( There wouldn’t really be any different skills to play up because they’re that similar, in qualifications and responsibilities. I’d basically just be serving different clients.

        1. Final Fantasy 3000*

          I had job interviews where I went for job A, but the HR manager asks if I would be also open to job B, which is similar in skillset with a minor differences. I guess you can perhaps write a cover letter for your most favorite position, but highlight that you are also open to similar positions.

          1. BeeGee*

            Hmmm…yeah, maybe just highlight in your cover letter that you would be a good fit for both for X reason/experience but would prefer one over the other. Since one role serves one client and the other a different client, do you have any experience in serving one client over another? It probably wouldn’t be a big faux pas if you sent the same for both, maybe just noting in one that you applied for another but feel like you could be a good fit for either position. But I would limit it then to two position applications for now, otherwise it will look to be a bit desperate instead of focused.

    2. Nonny*

      Depending on the size of the company, I’d just apply for each of the two with different titles and mention your interest in the other openings in whichever cover letter(s) would match the titles.

      If it’s a really large company (major corporations) there’s probably no issue with applying to each of them individually, since the various managers may not have any overlap, but with a small or midsize one it might look less unfocused.

  73. The Green Lawintern*

    I have a supervisor who is a lovely, friendly person, but is absolutely terrible at following procedure and often makes policy statements that are dead wrong. She’s also been giving me cases she started and dropped midway through, which I know for a fact grandboss has told her to stop doing. If anyone has any scripts I can use to politely push back on inaccurate assertions or turn down work she shouldn’t be giving me, I would really appreciate it.

    1. CheeryO*

      My supervisor does the same thing at times… he’s an amazing big-picture guy, but he loses the details sometimes, and we’re very much in a details kind of business (regulatory). I try to get everything from him in writing, and if I see something that doesn’t look quite right, I follow up right away with a correction and source. It’s harder to do on the fly, but you can always follow up with an email and say, “I had a little more time to think about X and realized that…” As long as you’re polite, I’m sure your supervisor will appreciate that you’re paying attention to the details.

  74. peachie*

    Work question on behalf of my partner, Mustardseed. He’s been working at a small retail store for ~7 months and is having a rough time with a coworker, Peaseblossom. The previous manager recently quit and Peaseblossom was promoted to the position. They’re now the only two employees and it’s wearing him down.

    Peaseblossom talks incessantly. If he manages to get a word in, she brings the conversation back to herself. (He once texted me saying “I’ll message you when she stops talking to me” — it was a full hour. This isn’t uncommon.) And… it seems like she’s not a good person? Quite a lot of “want to hear about the [monogamous] married men I’m dating?,” off-color comments that he tries to push back on, that sort of thing. She’ll say rude things about customers while they’re in earshot — more than one customer has told Mustardseed that they avoid the store when they see that Peaseblossom is working. Also, she frequently steals Mustardseed’s sales (e.g., he’ll be the one helping out a customer, and when they’re ready to buy, she’ll say “I can take you over here” and earn the commission). She’s lied about him leaving work early (I pick him up; he hasn’t), claimed he didn’t do tasks that he did, etc. And this was before she was manager.

    Mustardseed has tried the usual polite tactics — finding tasks to do out of the main area, saying “I’m sorry, I have a headache and can’t talk right now” or “I’d rather not discuss [x],” simply not responding, etc. But she gets upset if she gets any pushback or if she’s not getting “I’m listening” responses/validation. “I have to get back to work” doesn’t work as there’s not much to do when there aren’t customers in the store. And there isn’t really a “big boss” to report to — the company that owns the store is located elsewhere and aren’t especially responsive to concerns.

    Apart from “get a new job” (he’s trying), I’m fresh out of advice for him. Any ideas on how to make this tolerable in the meantime?

    1. Jules the 3rd*

      On the constant talking: Can he pretend it’s performance art? Or that he’s watching her to collect information for his award winning play? Some kind of mental story in his head to help him disassociate from her behavior, emotionally.

      On the rude comments about customers: document and report to upper management. Date, time, any audience, words as closely as possible. (DO NOT RECORD HER) I think I saw a reddit sometime about somebody who had a friend go in (without acknowledging the friendship), get treated badly, and complain about it to corporate as a customer. If she’s consistent enough, that might be an option.

      On the stealing customers: uuuuugghhh Peaseblossom is the worst. Just keep an eye on customers, and try to get the ‘I can help you here’ in first, I guess.

    2. Mama Bear*

      That’s a tough one, but I’d keep saying that x isn’t a professional topic and I wasn’t discussing it and finding almost anything else to do in the store. Who owns the store? Is there any regional manager above her?

    3. WellRed*

      I think if there’s a district mgr or similar, he should speak up about whatever he’s most comfortable raising, like the customer comments. She’s veering toward sexual harassment with forcing him to listen to her dating life. Maybe next time a customer complains to him, he could direct them to contact the hire ups. Or leave a google review. He should find a way to protect his commission.

  75. Deb Morgan*

    People who work for nonprofits that provide direct services: When someone reaches out to you asking about a service that your organization does not provide, how do you respond? Do some Google-ing to find an org that does? How thoroughly do you vet the orgs you’re directing people to?

    1. KeepIt*

      We have a list of places that provide the services we’re consistently asked about – does your org have something like that? If not, it might be helpful to start developing a list to have on hand when people call in! Otherwise, I usually ask my coworkers for a recommendation first, and then do some googling to find usually a couple options for the person. Depending on the services they’re asking about, sometimes state health dept/human services agencies will have a list available on their websites

      1. Ama*

        Our nonprofit doesn’t have a lot of direct services but we provide education and resources for a particular disease, so our helpline has a list of other orgs with similar aims if what the caller needs isn’t something we provide (i.e., we don’t have low-cost housing near hospitals but can refer to another org that does). Sometimes they are orgs we have worked with directly so we know they are quality resources and sometimes they are very large orgs with established reputations. My colleagues are also pretty well connected in the community around patients with our disease — if we start hearing regular reports that a certain org or one of their programs isn’t really all it is cracked up to be we’ll take them off the list.

        That said we’re also very careful with our language when we are referring people — we always tell people “these are orgs that MAY have those kinds of resources” and/or “these are some other places you might ask” and try not to say anything that implies they can definitely get help there (especially as those orgs may have certain eligibility restrictions we aren’t aware of). A year or so ago a major org in our disease unexpectedly discontinued a program that we referred a lot of people to so we try to make sure people understand that we don’t always have the most current info about what’s available.

    2. Bunny Girl*

      Whenever someone writes in asking for a service, I would make a list of what they are asking for. After a month, I would take a look at the list and see what the most popular ones are and have a list ready to go for those services. You can schedule a bit of time and look through the most popular ones in your area that do offer the service and you would feel comfortable recommending, and then you have something to go off of. It takes a little bit of time in the beginning, but it does save a lot of time going forward. The non-profit I volunteer for did this years ago and it’s been so helpful!

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Not non-profit but we see this in our line of business as well. They want something that’s in our scope but not what we offer. I always try to respond with some assistance, I keep lists around since we get the same kind of requests frequently enough.

      I do a little research on a company, if they have awful reviews or PR, I won’t send someone there but otherwise I don’t put that much effort into vetting them. This may be a thing that does matter in non-profit services though of course, so you may want to ask about your internal controls there!

    4. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      In a lot of the US, dialing 2-1-1 will connect you to an information line about community services that are available in your area. Per the FCC, 90% of the US is covered by either local or regional calling centers. So maybe, instead of looking for an org yourself, directing the caller to 2-1-1 might be the way to go?

    5. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Binder or database of referral organizations, and a plan for a someone to go through the list regularly to check on and update the information (names of organizations, the services they have, their contact information, their geographic service area, etc., etc.). In one larger legal services office where I’ve worked, we had two dedicated part-time volunteers whose only job was to call our referral organizations for the updating.

    6. Lilysparrow*

      Part of our service model is connecting clients with other resources that go beyond or tangential to what we do, so most of the time I encourage them to come in and talk with a care coordinator.

      For some questions that are really specific, I have a list of orgs where I can just give them the name and phone number.

      In the instances where the caller is trying to game the system to just get free stuff (which is less frequent but more blatant than I would have expected), I just tell them “Sorry, that’s not our policy” or “Sorry, that’s not in our scope of service.”

  76. Lalaroo*

    I’m in my Legal Practice class right now (I’m a 1L). My professor is telling us about functional/skills resumes and says they can be a good choice for legal jobs. I know they’re a definite no-no for other types of jobs, but can any lawyers tell me if they might good in this field in particular?

    I know law has some quirks (for instance, we have been told to DEFINITELY include hobbies/interests in our resumes for summer jobs); is this one of them?

    1. Glomarization, Esq.*

      I’d check with your career services office to see if they have a more reliable line on what your target employers are looking for. Law firms are probably looking for something more standard where you tout your class rank, law review and moot court memberships, and so on. But a “JD-advantage” job might be better landed with a functional resume.

    2. Fikly*

      I’d be wondering when the last time your professor used a resume to get a job working for a non-academic legal job was. And then I would follow the advice to ask your career center.

    3. Coverage Associate*

      I have never used such a format, nor have any of the people I have interviewed. No recruiters have wanted that format.

      I also don’t put hobbies on my resume, but it can be a good idea.

    4. quikaa*

      This was years ago, but we put 1 or 2 interesting hobbies/activities/unusual jobs at the end of the resume to have something to talk about in the interview and distinguish ourselves from all the other top grades, law review students they talked to all day. However, the law favors the standard resume – and without the top school, top grades, law review etc. you weren’t getting the interview in the first place.

  77. KeepIt*

    I just renewed my contract for another year with my job and I think I may have made a huge mistake. I’ve been here about three years. There’s nothing fundamentally wrong with the job or workplace, its a me problem. My work involves a lot of public communication, which I have a great deal of constant anxiety over. I thought after three years of just pushing through and doing it, I would feel more comfortable with it/it would get better but it hasn’t. Yesterday I basically had to go straight to bed after work just to stop the constant cycle of anxiety. I feel like I’ve tried every suggestion in the book and it’s just not going away and I’m not sure what to do anymore and I don’t know why I agreed to do this for another year. I guess I thought when I first got this job that I could “fake it till I made it”, and I always manage to do what’s asked of me (which is why they keep me around) but it’s completely destroying my health in the process. I don’t know

  78. Eliasaph*

    Any tricks to getting jobs at a temp agency? I sent several my resume through their website, but the only thing I’ve gotten back is automatic marketing emails. I have little experience and am looking for entry level admin type roles.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Call them.
      Call them.
      Call them.

      They never ever respond to resumes sent through their websites. Ask me how I know [You don’t have to, I know because I’m well versed in temping from years ago.]

      You have to stay on them and keep telling them how interested you are. Don’t treat them like an employer, they are actually different. They’re a 3rd party, who is a defacto kind of employer. Really, they’re working for you in a lot of ways, along with working for their clients that they’re doing the placements for. So you need to get in there and make yourself known.

      So give them a call and ask to meet up with them to discuss your resume and if they have any required testing involved. I had to do some basic testing years ago for skills tests so they could tell people that not only does my resume say This Stuff that my skills tests show that yeah, I do really know Excel/Quickbooks/how to turn on a computer, etc.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          No problem! It’s something a lot of folks don’t know. We’re taught to just send our resumes and the person on the other end is supposed to call us if they’re interested.

          It takes a bit more work to get into a temp agency. But believe me, once you’ve “proven” yourself to be a solid worker, after your first assignment comes back with good feedback, they will keep you working steadily until they get you a perm spot if that’s what you’re looking for.

          1. AudreyParker*

            I think this definitely depends on your market (and role). I had a long assignment at the beginning of the year, which I got excellent feedback on, and since then mostly crickets – one phone screen for something that was not a great fit, and that’s it. Still kind of surprised, as I’d been going on that assumption, too! Which definitely highlights the importance of trying to connect with multiple companies…

    2. AudreyParker*

      I’ve had a tough time with this myself, and was kind of surprised as I did a bunch of temping “back in the day” and getting your foot in the door was not really an issue (getting an assignment, maybe, but not getting on their radar). I’ve considered reaching out to the people on LinkedIn — often, if an agency posts an ad on Indeed etc, there’s a name attached, or you can get an idea of the hierarchy from the website. I’m sure they’re just inundated with a lot of people wanting to register who all look about the same at entry level, so you’ll probably have more luck being proactive on a personal level, and there they can easily glance at your profile.

      I’d also take note of the details mentioned in the job posts each agency publishes and the types of jobs/fields they tend to work with, that will play into it, too. For instance, these days, being able to say you know VLOOKUP and pivot tables will get you a lot farther than just mentioning Excel. My problem is that I am not entry level, and although I’m totally willing to do lower level jobs, my overall experience doesn’t really mesh with a lot of what they’re looking for, so it’s hard for me to get traction.

  79. Bunny Girl*

    Does anyone have any tips for getting up and getting out of bed in the morning? I wake up early enough, but I really struggle with the act of getting out of bed. I don’t take a long time to get ready, but I’d like to have time to make breakfast and get some stretches in before I head out the door. But basically without fail every day, I get out of bed with just enough time to wash my face and brush my teeth. Anyone have some methods for getting yourself going?

    1. Punk Ass Book Jockey*

      I have this problem, too. I plug my phone into an outlet on the other side of the room, that way I have to physically get out of bed to turn it off. Once I’m up, I find that I don’t want to return to bed (unless I’m really exhausted or not feeling well).

      1. Elenna*

        Not Bunny Girl but having the same problem – that might work for me, except I’ve developed the habit of playing on my phone in bed after turning off the lights, and I’m not sure I have the willpower to a) break that habit or b) get out of bed once I turn off the phone and move it. Maybe I should look into buying a separate alarm clock? But I really like the app I use for an alarm clock on my phone right now…

        1. InsufficentlySubordinate*

          I have the absolute rule that I must get out of bed as close to the start of the alarm as possible. The moment I hear the alarm I hit Snooze, but that’s to time me getting into the shower which i have to be out of by the end of the first Snooze. If I delay at all, I sleep longer and then I don’t have time for anything.

          1. Elspeth Mcgillicuddy*

            When I decided that Snooze was a stupid idea, since if I have ten extra minutes I should be spending them properly asleep not hitting the snooze button, my rule was I had to sit up. I didn’t have to think or move, but my top half had to be vertical. Worked pretty well for me. Only problem was that I trained myself so I could NOT fall back asleep whenever I woke up, even on weekends or vacations.

        2. Ears*

          I was in the identical situation for a while. Breaking the habit wasn’t as bad as I thought it would be! I find I sleep better and wake up earlier if my phone is across the room (I put it next to my bed on weekends though.) Maybe try it for a week and see how it goes.

      2. Bunny Girl*

        I will try this! I might just go buy an actual alarm clock and put it on the other side of my room. I think it will probably be louder than my phone alarm. Thanks!

    2. Nessun*

      How dark/warm is your room? I find that if it’s warmer, I have more issues, so I keep it cool. I also have a light which mimics the sunrise (I live far enough north that sunrise can be ages after I get up in fall/winter). I can’t sleep through the bright light, so I find I’ll wake as it’s changing from red to orange, and by the time it gets to yellow/white light, I’m up to shut the darn thing off. It’s also on the other side of the room, so getting up to shut it off means I’m upright, and can just plod off to start my day instead of returning to bed.

      1. Bunny Girl*

        I keep my room pretty cold. I also can’t sleep without a eye mask because I live near a busy street. I’ve thought about those too and then realized they probably wouldn’t make a difference through my sleep mask. But maybe I should start getting up and opening my blinds in the morning to let some sunlight in.

        1. Witchy Human*

          I use one of those sunrise alarm clocks and blackout curtains–total dark at night, and my “morning” light is the same throughout the year so the changing seasons doesn’t throw me off as much.

      2. Alianora*

        I’ve found the opposite in terms of hot/cold. If it’s cold in my room, I just want to stay in bed as long as possible. If it’s warm, getting up doesn’t seem so bad.

    3. Beth Jacobs*

      A seperate alarm is a great idea! I’d also look into general sleep hygiene.

      I’ve learned that I really need 8.5 hours a night, not 7. I’ve been sticking to a 10 pm bedtime and I do wake up much more refreshed, I don’t want to stay in bed any more.

      So maybe look into how much sleep you’re getting overall, darkness, temperature of the room, etc.

      1. Bunny Girl*

        I do know I get plenty of sleep! I’m go to bed really early and 9/10 I wake up naturally before my alarm. But I’m also one of those people that loves to nap so honestly I could wake up refreshed with plenty of sleep and I’d still be happy to laze around for hours.

      2. OtterB*

        I have a few simple stretches and exercises to do in bed. I’m not consistent about them, but I find when I do them, it’s easier to get on up.

    4. Goose Lavel*

      Have two alarms to wake you up in the morning, one next to the bed and one on your dresser that requires you getting out of bed to shut it off.
      Make sure the second alarm is very annoying, loud and does not shut off automatically.

    5. EmilyG*

      I got one of those light-up alarm clocks when I was living in a northern clime and now can’t live without it. It starts gradually lighting up 30 minutes before the alarm, and then I just pop out of bed because it feels like time to get up. I’ll avoid posting a link so this doesn’t got to moderation, but search “philips wake up light” on Amazon for examples.

      1. Bunny Girl*

        I mentioned this above, but I sleep with an eye mask on so those don’t really have any effect. But I have looked into them before!

    6. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      My husband and I both found leaps and bounds of improvement in our getting-out-of-bed-ability when we started taking 5000 units (I forget what the units are exactly) of vitamin D with our daily vitamins/meds. I used to be completely incapable of getting out of bed if the sun hadn’t come up yet, but now I’m up when the alarm goes off at 5:45 with no problems.

      1. Bunny Girl*

        This is another thing I struggle with – taking vitamins. I should be taking B-12, which also helps with energy levels too, but I don’t. LoL

    7. littlelizard*

      This is very specific to my recent housing setups, but if you have a way to turn on lights without getting up, do it as soon as you’re awake. I sometimes spend too much time sleepily browing the internet on my phone in the morning, but if the lights are on, that’s time I use to “wake up” and have enough energy to get up.

    8. ACDC*

      If you like books, I would recommend “Sleep Smarter” by Shawn Stevenson. He has a lot of science-backed tips for getting better sleep which will, in turn, make waking up a lot better.

      1. Bunny Girl*

        I will check it out. Thank you! I actually feel really confident about my sleep health and all that. I know I’m getting plenty of good sleep. I just really struggle with wanting to get out of bed.

    9. vanillacookies*

      Do you tend to browse your phone in bed? I do and a little while back I deleted some social media (for unrelated reasons) and since then I noticed I’ve been making it to the office a full 30 minutes earlier than I had been.

    10. E*

      Find something to use as a motivating reward for getting up in the morning. Whether it’s a fancy coffee on the way to work (even just for a few days), or a nice breakfast treat you look forward to. I like to treat myself to a quick cooking video on YouTube while I’m enjoying the few minutes of quiet before waking my toddler for the trip to daycare on my way to work.

      1. Bunny Girl*

        We are bringing home a puppy very soon that I hope will get me motivated to get up and get going! My boyfriend thought letting the cat into my room in the morning would get me going but the cat likes to get under the covers and sleep with me. I’m hoping a puppy barking to go out will get me up. :)

        1. Stornry*

          If not barking, he’ll be licking your face as soon as he knows you’re awake. That’s what my boys do – they’re real patient and happy to be lazy, too, until they know I’m a bit awake then they happily make it known they’re ready for a trip outside and breakfast. If not, all it takes is one canine “accident” to get you up just to let him outside in order to avoid a squelchy mess in future.

          1. Bring Hawkeye to the Details*

            Yep! Mine is blind, so he doesn’t see the sunlight, but we trained when he first arrived: no waking momma up until the alarm goes off. (Emergency bathroom needs excepted of course.) Once he hears that alarm though, I’m not getting any peace until we go for a walk.

            Do a real walk too. Don’t fall into the trap of just letting the puppy into the yard. It’s better for her mental state, and it will definitely wake you up fully.

    11. Fikly*

      I find it really helpful to start doing tasks that engage my brain. Sometimes that means putting on a podcast if I’m really out of it, or reading on my phone if I’m more with it. That helps me wake up enough to get my body moving. Keep whatever method you use for this within arms reach.

    13. AudreyParker*

      If you’re a coffee person, a coffee maker with a timer set to go off maybe 15 minutes before your alarm. I live in an apartment, so can smell the coffee once it’s brewing, and that plus knowing there is coffee waiting for me helps get me moving (…sometimes).

    14. Lilysparrow*

      I can’t stay in bed too long after waking because I need the bathroom. If you drink a big glass of water before bed, will you make it through the night? Or you could try keeping a water bottle on your nightstand to “kickstart” everything when you wake up.

  80. LovesCoffee*

    Wanted to share good news and also ask if any red flags might be in this job offer. After a year of searching (while employed), I finally got a job offer! I was plenty surprised though, considering I had been the last person of the day to be interviewed, so while others got a 30 minute session, I had to leave after 10 because the room was booked by a meeting! I guess my 10 minutes and the pre-interview assignment must have impressed them though, because the HR lady came back saying that informally they are think I might have the job!
    I do wonder though, as interviews go that definitely wasn’t the best I ever had. I wonder why I gotten the job anyway? Is a informal job offer after an unsuccessful interview a red glad?

    1. 1234*

      I’m glad they informally offered you the job but I would wait to jump for joy until receiving a formal offer letter. They could have given the informal offer to you for a few reasons:

      1 – They thought you were the most impressive candidate on paper and they liked you in-person.
      2 – You may have thought you interviewed “not as well” but they thought the opposite. True story – I thought my interviewers hated me at a first round interview and I ended up getting an offer and accepting.

      1. LovesCoffee*

        Woo, thanks 1234. Yes, definitely will be a good idea to hold off on the Town Cryer announcements and Airplane Fly Through resignation letter lol. Knowing the industry and current economic climate, informal job offer is far from secure. I read stories where the offer got stuck for months on the desks on some executive.

  81. Rainy days*

    Small rant: I was crafting a form job applicants would fill out with my boss and they asked me if we could ask applicants to write their race on it.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Wait.

      No.

      Wait….

      WHAT THE ACTUAL EFING EF.

      In what frigging planet do these people come from?! You’re on Mars, aren’t you?

    3. Final Fantasy 3000*

      Sure, they can fill that out right under the columns indicating their gender, politics and ETA to when they are having a baby.

    7. Llellayena*

      Well, you can…but if you base any of your hiring on the answer (or even have a HINT of basing hiring on the answer) you’re in some massive legal trouble. So it’s not smart. Some applications ask but only for diversity tracking and it’s not (shouldn’t be) referenced or used during hiring.

    8. OtterB*

      Before we get too snarky on the boss, I can think of one good reason (as opposed to discriminatory ones) to ask this. Sometimes you want or are required to know the demographics of your applicant pool. But of course the answer is not to put the question on the same form with the rest of the application; it’s to have it on a separate sheet of paper (with no name) or a later, separate online question.

  82. bubblegum*

    I was moved into a team that I think I’m a really bad fit for. My manager is way too busy to manage me or at least keeps telling me so. She has suggested several times that “Oh, it would make more sense if [Person A] was your manager.” or “You’d be a great help to [Person B]’s team.” I’ve always told her that I’d be happy to move to another team if she thought that it was a good decision. Nothing’s happened and I don’t think anything will. Am I supposed to lead this change? Who do I talk to, to get moved?

    1. Final Fantasy 3000*

      I think it will be good if you can approach either A or B first to check if they are in need of manpower for their team.

  83. Slutty Toes*

    Happy Friday! As an academic this is the start of my weekend.

    I teach at a community college. I’m part of a larger umbrella department and the only full-time facultymember in my discipline. I oversee a bullpen of adjuncts and have an emeritus who still haunts the hallways for a class each semester. (I’m a male in a traditionally male field, not especially young but younger than average in the department.)

    The emeritus is a wonderful man, an excellent teacher, and a ginormous pain in the ass. He hasn’t let go of his position – he retired solely because he crunched the numbers and his takehome pay is higher with his pension and adjunct pay than it was teaching full time. He stops by and offers helpful suggestions that aren’t that helpful, take up my time, and don’t go anywhere. All of this was fine until…. the Drunk.

    A few years back, the Drunk and the Emeritus were the whole of my discipline. The Drunk had some sort of Incident that led indirectly to my hiring. He had previously been excellent but went rapidly downhill over the past few years and ended up being politely asked to leave the department after the Incident. I have gone out of my way not to find out any details. However, his line opened up, the hires didn’t work out well, and eventually the third time was the charm with me.

    The Emeritus considers the Drunk a close friend and is trying to use his influence in the department to help the Drunk work his way back in.

    The Drunk disappeared for a while but then tried to come back to adjunct because he is bored and sad. I’ve spoken with him – he’s not going to work in the classroom. Not to put too fine a point on it, he’s elderly and showing the effects of isolation and alcoholism. He asked, for example, to be scheduled between 11 and 2 so that it’s safe for him to drive. His ideas are dated and he suggested running an event to leverage his connections that involved a speech by the manager of a band most of my students have never heard of.

    Our legal department has told us in no uncertain terms that the Drunk will not be returning.

    How can I kindly, gently, politely get the Drunk to go away and the Emeritus to stop advocating for him?

    1. Bunny Girl*

      Could you possibly get your legal department to send the Drunk something? If he knows it’s out of your hands, he might stop harassing you.

      Also, solidarity with the haunting Emeritus. We have quite a few that come back and think they should just be able to do whatever they please. We have one or two who come in and load up on office supplies.

      1. Slutty Toes*

        Ha! Funny story – he was miffed that he no longer had his office. One of our old timers who is still on full time status volunteered to share office space with the Emeritus on the two days a week he’s in the department. We don’t have a large enough contingent of emeritus faculty to implement my suggestion of replacing one of our three adjunct offices with a dedicated emeritus office, unfortunately …

  84. Freaked Out*

    Hey, does anyone have any advice on dealing with mangers who are taking steroids for medical reasons?

    While doing the part of my job that I struggle in, I got in a fight with them because I said they were being rude, and then they called ME out for being rude and having a bad attitude. I replied by saying I was calling them out on being rude ALSO. I ended up leaving in an anxiety attack and talking to the main manager.

    But I’m oh, so scared of another argument and fight, and it doesn’t help that I hate criticism because I was always getting in trouble as a child and have had toxic bosses in the past! Help!

    1. Jules the 3rd*

      People on the internet are too far away from this situation to have much useful help. Tone and context make a lot of difference on ‘who’s being rude!’ situations.

      However:
      ) Your goal should be ‘solve the problem’ of the part of the job you struggle with, not ‘win the fight’.
      2) Managers have most of the power in this kind of situation; ‘getting into a fight’ with them will not help you solve a problem, it will only cut you off from someone who can help you.
      3) Manager’s job includes the requirement to give you ‘criticism’ (aka ‘feedback’). It is very important that employees be able to hear feedback and take it seriously, and use it to solve the problem.

      So when you get feedback, take a breath and *think* about it – not about how it’s delivered, but about ‘will this advice help me be better at the part I’m struggling with?’

      I actually recommend you think about what your manager said in that light right now, and then go back to your boss about it. Maybe, ‘I’m sorry the last feedback session went off the rails, can we try again? You advised me to do X and Y – X will help some, but Y won’t work well. What do you think about Z?’ (Note – I’m not getting into ‘who was rude’ question here, trying to judge that won’t solve your problem)

      It really sucks that you’ve had such bad experiences in the past, ones that have made it hard for you to process criticism. There’ve been some posts in the past about how not to let that toxic past poison your current situation, and therapy is usually part of it. Good luck.

        1. JustaTech*

          Sometimes some steroids can cause people to get really angry. When I had to take prednisone for an injury I was warned that I might “Hulk out” and I should take the day off if I could.
          It didn’t happen, but I think it was listed on the side effects, so it’s a real thing.

    2. Fikly*

      So you don’t actually know that the steroids are causing this, unless the steroids are new and the behavior has changed. I’m on long term steroids for medical issues and they don’t affect my mood/behavior. They can, but it’s not a sure thing.

      Regardless, this is a behavioral issue. Steroids affect your mood/emotions/feelings, not your impulse control. And if they do affect his impulse control, and that makes him unable to carry out his job responsibilities (ie, manage you in a non-abusive way) then he doesn’t get accommodations under the ADA. Your boss is responsible for their actions. You are responsible for your actions.

    3. Lilysparrow*

      I don’t know that the steroids have anything to do with it or not, but here’s how I deal with unreasonable clients/managers/grandbosses who are grumpy or irritable:

      1) Don’t get in fights/arguments. Just don’t. There is no way to “win” an argument with someone who is both unreasonable and in a position of authority over you. You can only lose, because they can always retaliate or make your life miserable if they get pissed off enough. If you or they can’t disagree maturely and professionally, defer to them in the moment and find a way to work around them later.

      2) If they are rude to you, unless it’s really extreme like yelling, offensive language, or personal insults, ignore it and turn the conversation to focus on the work. If they are distracting you while you’re flustered, tell them politely that it’s hard to concentrate when they are doing (whatever it is). If they are extremely rude or offensive, tell them calmly that X was uncalled for and will make it very hard to work together productively.

      3) An unnecessary apology (even if you think you’re right) costs you nothing and is a great way to disarm potential conflict. If they say you were rude, apologize. There is no cosmic court that will judge between you who was right or wrong, and no prize for being the One Who Isn’t Sorry.

      4) If your reaction to criticism causes you to lose control of your words or behavior, think about getting some therapy. You need to take criticism in a professional, calm way. Even if it’s wrong or unfair, losing your cool at a senior person because you don’t like criticism is going to be a major, major problem in your work life and will hurt your reputation in the long term.

      Always keep it about getting the work done, not about your feelings. Rude unreasonable people don’t care about your feelings anyway. Focusing on the work will change the energy and tone everything down. Picture yourself as doing verbal Tai Chi. Your goal is to smoothly redirect all the energy into a calm place – their energy and your own.

  85. Final Fantasy 3000*

    To hiring managers out there, would you rescind a job offer if your applicant requested for 2 weeks off before they started work? I was hoping that I can quit my current job, take a quick holiday (not paid, of course) and then start my new job. But I don’t want them to mark this against me.

    1. Not Desperate for the Job*

      Not a hiring manager, but I gave a start date that was 4 weeks away. You don’t have to explain why you’re giving the date you are, and you can always blame it on needing to give your current job notice. I did that so I’d have a week for the background check to process, 2 weeks’ notice, and a week off.

      1. Final Fantasy 3000*

        Thanks for the tip, Not Desperate. I guess there is no harm in me negotiating with the HR rep if I keep a polite tone and am willing to compromise.

    2. 1234*

      Not if you disclosed this to them at the interview stage. If you already said “I can start on X date” and are now saying “I can start at this later date,” I would want to know the reason for the change.

      1. Final Fantasy 3000*

        Thanks 1234! Nope, I don’t think I really got the chance to talk about starting date yet, so hopefully that will work in my favor

    3. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      What you’re asking for isn’t two weeks off but to delay your start date by two weeks – which is almost always totally fine. Just tell your new boss you were hoping to start on Day X (aka 4 weeks from now) and see if that would be a problem on their end. Unless it’s something like retail or service industry where they expect immediate availability, or there’s some reason they need you to start sooner (like a training date or something), it shouldn’t be a problem at all. Congrats!

      1. Final Fantasy 3000*

        Oooh Thanks Tina. I’ll try to talk to them about this and see if we can come to a compromise. :D

    4. Drogon's sister*

      Congrats! I actually just asked a related question, below… a friend is having an issue with asking for time before starting a new job but in his case, this is an odd situation with a few other red flags so… don’t take that into account for yourself.

      I would echo that you don’t need to give details, whether it’s a holiday or taking care of some personal errands before starting a new job. I would focus on the date that works for you and see what they say. I have typically always taken a break of a week or so before starting a new job and it’s never been an issue (but I also didn’t tell anyone why).

  86. Rachel*

    So about a month and a half ago I started my first salaried position after always being hourly, and it is ~weird~. I always work for at least 8 hours, but I’m afraid that I leave too early (even though no one seems to mind/care – I’m a bit anxious about time in general). I’ve been trying to absorb and learn the culture here, but the company is in a period of growth/transition/change, so it’s hard to tell what the norm is now, and what people are holding onto from the past. Does anyone have any advice about making the transition in general (not just the time part)?

    1. Oh No She Di'int*

      I don’t know if I have a ton of advice on the transition in general, but I would say this: find someone to act as kind of a “silent mentor”. By that, I mean find someone in the company who seems well respected and/or well liked. The kind of person you’d want yourself to be in 3 years. Then follow their patterns of time management. That’s not a foolproof plan because people often do things you can’t see (i.e., take work home), but it’s a place to start.

      I’d also say that if you do end up ever, say, leaving early in order to finish up something at home, or coming in on a weekend, or doing anything out of the immediate view of your manager, make sure that they know you are doing that. Individual contributors often imagine that their boss must somehow magically know that they’ve been staying late for a week straight, or what have you. And the truth is that they don’t always know. Obviously this depends heavily on the mechanics of your particular workplace. This will ensure that they have a complete picture of all the work you are undertaking.

      2. Jennie*

        Totally agree with this advice! I used it for ages. I interviewed for an internal promotion and told the interviewer how much I admired the person. I got the job!

  87. BadWolf*

    I shared an industry thing we do as part of our job so it’s easy to get “credit” for doing an extra thing (people have done it before, I just posted a reminder it was coming up). An upper manager saw it, asked me about it and wanted suggestions for turning it into a competition for our area. Panic! I suggested one thing thinking I should provide something. Now I’m afraid I’ve been part of ruining a fun/optional thing by turning into a “fun” (not fun) competition.

    1. 1234*

      For it to be “fun” and truly “something extra” – I would make it clear that it is optional and make sure that there is a really good prize that people will want. Often times, I see these “competitions” and I had no desire to participate because the prize was not worth it to me.

  88. Mbarr*

    I’m currently measuring my blood pressure cause I don’t know if I have high blood pressure in general, or due to work stress… So many shenanigans happened.

    The players:
    – Francis (Wes’s old boss from several years ago, but recently promoted to head honcho of the office)
    – Bob (Wes’ peer, now promoted to Wes’ manager)
    – Wes (Superstar employee/team manager)

    The stories:
    It got announced yesterday that Francis is now the Director of a bunch of teams. Wes’ team (who I work with closely) is now being (incorrectly) reorg’d to be under Bob as shared resources.

    After the announcement, Wes pulled the team into a room to discuss the changes (he’d known about them for 24 hours before everyone else). He explains to us that he left Francis’ team for reasons (including disagreement of management style) several years ago and that there’s bad blood between them. He explained that he thinks the team was lumped under Bob as a way for Francis to put a buffer between him. So Wes explains that he’s going to fight the changes, and to engage with HR in case the “buffer” is a real reason.

    Meanwhile, while we’re having this meeting in a glass meeting room, Bob wanders by and pokes his head in (literally, just his head).
    Bob: Hey guys, what’s going on?
    Wes: We’re talking.
    Bob: Can I join?
    Wes: No.
    *Insert 15 seconds of staredown/silence between Bob and Wes*
    Bob: Why not?
    Wes: Because I’m having a discussion with the team I lead. I’ll talk to you afterwards.

    GAH! So much drama! Bob is a blowhard and I understand why Wes is unhappy being under him, and that he’s fighting the reorg change, but that wasn’t a great start to the new power dynamic.

    I’ve only been at the company for several months, but this, combined with my own discomfort (I’m woefully out of my depth) is making me question my decision to come here… But I love my pay cheque… There’s so many more politics happening too that I didn’t bother writing.

      1. Mbarr*

        There was already a lot of poor morale due to previous political shenanigans. And now we know our team isn’t understood/thought of highly by our new superiors (hence the reorg to the wrong position), so I think peeps are worried.

        I’ve only been at the company since April, and I’m struggling work-wise with just understanding what the team does and my own role on it. (The product they build is almost too advanced for me to understand, and I’ve never held this job title before, nor worked with someone with this job title before. I’m usually a fast learner, but this might be beyond me…) Now, coupled with the politics, I’m wondering if the move was a bad one.

        1. Cap. Marvel*

          That is unfortunate, friend. I’m sorry you’re struggling.
          I’m having some doubts of my own about my skills. But I reached out to a co-worker who has been here forever and picked her brain for ways to improve. She doesn’t do any of the same work as me, but she has a vague idea what the person who previously had my position did and knows who might be more suited to help me. And she has candy in her office so that helped a lot.
          Maybe there’s someone on your team who can do the same for you? Or maybe your team has a handbook that you can study and better understand the product (if that’s necessary for your job).
          And while you might normally be a fast learner, maybe this is just something that is taking you a bit longer to learn. I don’t know all what you’re working on, so you will have to decide this for yourself.
          If you still feel like this is too out of your depth then apply to other places.

    1. Business Librarian*

      Yesterday I helped a student who’s honors thesis is on the link between developing empathy (big part of emotional intelligence) and reading fiction. Believe it or not, this has been studied and demonstrated. I think the theory behind it is that reading fiction allows you to see into other people’s lives and struggles.
      You won’t be surprised at a librarian recommending this, but while you’re doing more targeted activities, I recommend that you read fiction, particularly about people who aren’t just like you. And if you’re not a pleasure reader, listening to audio books is a different experience and one you might like.

    2. Product Person*

      Mindful meditation worked wonders for me. What it helps with is making you immediately aware when you’re starting to feel frustrated, or angry, or impatient, or about to start crying, and recognize the emotion and control it so in the exterior you remain calm and professional, even though inside you may still be fuming. There are several apps where you can get lessons free, 10% Happier, Waking Up, Headspace.

  90. Not Desperate for the Job*

    Update! Not only have I been permitted to stay through my 2 weeks’ notice, but they (1) begged me to stay (“is there anything, anything at all, that would make you consider staying”), and (2) begged me for 3 weeks’ notice. XD

    I did consider asking for a stupid amount of money/vacation for a minute, but then really confirmed with myself that my complaints would still hold and I’d likely be looking for new work in 6 months anyway. So I might as well leave while I have the offer and am excited for the new company.

    But the 3 weeks was not happening. I am purposefully taking a week between jobs to decompress and reset myself before the new job. They kept pushing and pushing, so finally I told them I start midweek after my last day. I don’t like lying, but they would not stop asking about it. They wanted me here for the third week to have overlap with my hopeful replacement, but I highly doubt they’ll even have that person here. Not only that, but since I’ve been freed of basically all my meeting commitments since giving my two weeks (not sure why but whatever) I have been SO PRODUCTIVE. I almost have nothing left to do anymore, and next week is going to be so boring! XD

    1. Hello Cat*

      Good for you for holding your ground. I was in an admin position at a law firm awhile back and gave 4 weeks notice due to an out of state move and they got SO MAD that I ONLY gave 4 weeks and said I should have told them as soon as I knew I was moving. I got guilted into working an extra week, giving me a weekend and two business days before an OUT OF STATE MOVE. Oh how young and stupid I was. The kicker? I told them but [employee who was a lawyer] gave 3 weeks notice….apparently that was different because I was “more important.” Than a lawyer. If I was so important, how come I wasn’t making more than him? Hah.

  91. AITA*

    So, I need some outside opinions on whether I’m morally wrong in applying for this job. I am currently very content with my employment situation. I work for a reputable company that has been performing very well in this economy and has excellent track record. The team that reports to me is very strong and everyone gets along great. My boss is not perfect but fair, and thinks that I am a strong performer and has openly stated that they would name me as their successor if they get promoted. I am compensated fairly, and the company has a generous bonus structure. I also have a traffic free commute and I love the neighborhood where we currently live.

    However, a few days ago I was contacted by an internal recruiter about a similar position with another company. The company has a worldwide name recognition and is one of those places that would be “cool” to work for. The job description sounds interesting and challenging – something that appeals to me. However, this company would literally have to blow my socks off with their offer as well as their office/team environment/growth potential in order for me to even consider relocating out of state. In fact, I’m 99% sure they would not be able to convince me to do it. However, I still want to interview for a number of reasons. 1) There is a chance that they might actually make me an offer I can’t refuse. 2) I would like to know how marketable I am and what someone else thinks I’m worth. 3) I would like to learn more about the company.

    Given these facts, would I be a jerk for applying and interviewing and potentially wasting their time, or would you say I should go for it at see what they have to offer?

    1. Drogon's sister*

      Go for it! Why not see what they have to offer and what you learn? You’re not obligated by just going on an interview and who knows what may happen. Best of luck!

    2. SwirlPencil*

      Can you let them know that you are definitely interested in the job and company, but are less sure about the possibility of relocating out of state, and ask if they could give you their salary range and benefits details to see if it would make sense to talk? Then if you’re impressed, you could ask about their team environment and growth potential during the phone screening (or ask if you could talk to them about it before going for an in-person interview if they’re skipping the phone screening stage).

    3. Clementine*

      Just go ahead and do it. It’s up to them to convince you, and if they want you, they are sure to try. You never know either–your position right now seems totally stable, but sometimes things change.

    4. LilySparrow*

      Go for it!

      I imagine they aren’t planning to make an offer unless you blow their socks off, too. So you aren’t “wasting their time” any more than they are wasting yours.

  92. Plumcot*

    I work for a nonprofit with a lean fundraising department. I’ve been here for a few months and am starting to get super frustrated. I have a coworker “Dwight” who I cannot stand personally or professionally. Everyone on our team is in charge of managing a book of donors, as well as another specialty task (think major gifts, corporate sponsors, vehicle donations, etc.) Dwight struggles with everyday tasks. A mail merge that takes any of us 5 minutes takes him half the day. My boss “Michael” keeps taking tasks from Dwight and assigning them to me (ex: I am now in charge of marketing for his specialty, as well as my own). I feel like I am doing twice as much work and he just gets to sit around all day.

    Dwight has also been dishonest. For example, we come from the same industry, and he claimed to have a specific license. His story didn’t add up, so I checked the database available to anyone with this license and saw that he was not in there. The next time he mentioned it, I said I had checked and didn’t see him in the database. His story changed to “well I was in the process of getting it but then industry rules changed and I didn’t have to anymore” (also a lie). I have tried to gently broach the topic with my boss, but he just dances around the conversation with nonanswers. He seems to like Dwight and the two often go on long lunches. We don’t really have an HR department and I don’t think this would even be something to go to them with, but I don’t know what to do.

    Does anyone have some suggestions on how to deal with this unfair situation? And because I feel like this matters, I am a younger women while they are both middle age men. Thanks in advance!

    1. Kathenus*

      In my opinion the part to focus on is workload. So if your boss asks you to take on an additional responsibility, let him know what tasks you will be divesting or deprioritizing. Be clear that you can’t just add responsibilities to your role without getting rid of others. Dwight’s licenses and habits aren’t something you have the purview to deal with, so don’t let something you can’t control stress you out. Make it about how it impacts your work, and then let the rest go. Easier said than done I know, but best of luck.

    2. NicoleK*

      If you’ve discussed this with your boss several times and nothing changes. This may be a “your boss sucks and that’s not going to change” situation. In that case, you may have to learn to accept it or move on. My BEC coworker is incompetent. And our boss has been protecting and propping her up for the past 6 years.

  93. The Babiest Babyface*

    So, my favorite professor is up for tenure. Hooray!!! I was asked to write him a letter of recommendation, which is fine, except I’m not sure the tone I’m supposed to take? I’m worried I’ll be overly sentimental or informal. He’s absolutely the best educator I’ve ever had and I want to help him all I can. Any advice?

    1. Slutty Toes*

      I’m assuming you’re a grad student or advanced undergrad.

      Student letters are going to be informal. We expect that. If you want to do your favorite a solid, discuss specific things the professor did that improved your education and skills – I learned x valuable skill when we did y project, or z theoretical framework allowed me to understand ab. Feel free to mention the usual stuff we’d find on ratemyprofessor – if the professor is known for his sense of humor, for example, or a conversational style that makes material accessible, or exceptionally high standards that challenge students – but do try to pinpoint how these things have made you a better student or practitioner.

    2. OtterB*

      Field dependent, but in my area if you’ve worked with him on any research projects, talk about how he engages students in his research.

  94. Yorick*

    Yeah, if those were the exact words, he may not have known a photo session was needed and might have thought the badge would be waiting for him in the afternoon.

  95. Bee's Knees*

    I should have clarified. During the third set of us talking about it, I had taken his picture and printed the badge. That’s what brought about him telling me he didn’t think they last long.

    1. Bee Kind*

      You’re being rather unkind and fairly classist about this man. So he didn’t understand the badge. It doesn’t mean he’s a drooling idiot.

      I think you’re trying too hard to have the next Hellmouth. Nothing you’ve described over the past weeks is even remotely outside the bell curve.

      1. Peacock*

        I thought I was alone in thinking this – I can’t think of anything Bee’s Knees has posted that is at all Hellmouthy. Mildly annoying stuff happens in workplaces all the time, it doesn’t mean every workplace is a hellmouth or a hostile environment. I’m also not entirely sure that a person who works in HR regularly posting about co-workers on the internet is entirely ethical, regardless of how anonymised it may be, especially when it’s so disparaging and classist.

        1. :-)*

          I agree. I think it’s pretty off to come here and make remarks like this about people you theoretically oversee. It’s not very kind at all.

          1. voyager1*

            Honestly I very rarely comment on open thread days because the poster writes something like this. (I mean seriously set up a time to do his badge for goodness sake.) Or people write about situations that don’t have enough detail to really give an answer to.

            I too grow tried everyone trying to our blog each other on here… I would love to see the open threads moved to just Saturday and Sunday. I am glad that AAM has started doing the 5 letters on Friday. But in the end this blog is free and AAM can run it how she wants to.

      2. Bee's Knees*

        I never said he was a drooling idiot. I said he wasn’t bright, which is true. He does an excellent job keeping everything clean. He’s just not super smart, which isn’t the worst thing in the world to be.

        And besides, he makes a lot more money than I do. End of the day, it doesn’t really matter if he understood it or not. He got his badge in a timely manner, and is happy about it.

        1. Marigold*

          Honest question, why even post about this? It’s not a funny story, it’s barely a legitimate frustration, you’re just making fun of someone to a bunch of strangers. Doesn’t matter if you think he’s bright or not or paid well or not. He deserves respect. For shame.

        2. The Other Dawn*

          “I never said he was a drooling idiot.”

          You didn’t have to.

          I agree with others saying this is mean-spirited. Some people don’t get technology, or they do in general, but something like how an RFID card works, or even what it is, is unknown to them. Hell, I didn’t know what an RFID card was until my husband told me, because I’d never been at a company that used them.

      3. Deanna Troi*

        I agree with Be Kind that this is classist. Just because he doesn’t know how to use technology doesn’t necessarily mean he’s not bright. If he’s never had to use it, then he would have no experience with it and understanding it. I was confused when they recently switched our badge system, and I have a PhD.

        1. Stardust*

          It doesn’t sound like this is Bee’s first interaction with this guy. I didn’t get the sense that she came to the conclusion that he isn’t bright because of this incident but rather because she knows him in a general sense. It’s very possible to be not bright and ALSO not good with technology.

      4. Marigold*

        Thank you, I completely agree with you. I get that it’s fun to post wacky stories about work, but this poster’s stories have been neither funny nor entertaining. This one is just cruel and like the poster is trying very hard to have an oh-so-funny work blog. Except, nothing is actually happening to write about.

        I’m surprised Alison is allowing this ‘story’ because honestly, it’s super ableist and just plain mean spirited.

            1. NL*

              Alison has said over and over that she doesn’t read all comments and I’d guess that’s especially true of the open thread. It’s even in the comment rules. (Rules say – “I do not read and approve every single comment. The volume is far too high. I also sleep and work and do things that are not near a computer. So if you see a comment that seems problematic, please don’t do this: “I can’t believe this comment is allowed! Why has Alison approved this?!” Instead, assume I haven’t seen it and feel free to flag it and I’ll take a look (if you include a link in your comment, it’ll go to moderation so I’ll see it).”)

        2. Marcello Finalmente*

          Agreed. The stories are never funny, they just seem like really normal work stuff that OP likes to spend all week working up a post about and then gleefully trying to become the new Hellmouth on Fridays. I mean, if that’s what floats your boat, fine??? Be boring. Who cares. But this story today was mean-spirited. The janitor didn’t do anything to you except not understand something, and that’s your awful tale of woe? It seems like punching down and that’s always wrong.

    2. Jule*

      What are you doing here? I’m imagining someone writing this about my aging immigrant mother, who also cleans offices for a living, and I’m sick to my stomach.

    1. voyager1*

      If he is janitor and “not too bright”, you should have probably just printed the badge. Reading this exchange makes me think he has some kind of anxiety and you not printing the badge probably made it flare up.

      If he really has a cognitive issue you should try to make things as easy as you can for him, his issue is not something he can help or do anything about.

      1. Zona the Great*

        While a nice thought, that is actually not how you help folks who are not neurotypical. Explaining things clearly with direct language and allowing folks to handle their own emotions about it is probably best. LW seemed to do that pretty well.

      2. I hate coming up with usernames*

        How are they supposed to do that if they can’t print the badge without taking the person’s picture, and the person always says they’re not taking a picture right then?

  98. Nessun*

    Could use some thoughts & prayers – nothing bad is happening, but I put it out into the universe that I’m competent and useful and I’m having a little trouble believing it. My boss changed my role unexpectedly last month, and while I’ve come to terms with the change (mostly), I’m still very nervous about being able to do what he wants me to do – it’s nothing I’ve done before, and it’s currently very vague for both of us (he’s moving to a new role too, which caused the whole thing). After posting a few things in the past here and getting some feedback, I’ve realized that I was being pretty negative about it (internalizing fear and anger about the sudden shift), and I’m trying to be optimistic now. It’s hard though – I like to know where I stand! While I think I can probably do this (and I will definitely try my hardest), and my boss is pretty confident too so far, I feel like things keep shifting. I need a solid foundation, and that part’s missing.

    I don’t want a new job; I’m happy with my benefits and my salary, and my boss and team are great. But I wish I was a little more sure of myself. My problems are better problems to have than others…but still, to everyone who’s trying their best to figure it out today, I hope we can all find solid ground soon.

    1. The Original Karen from Finance*

      Sending you good vibes and thoughts! You are confident. You are useful. Hang in there.

    2. AnonJ*

      What a great and scary opportunity you’ve been presented with! I’ve found myself in similar situations and it’s so hard when there are both expectations and vagaries to contend with, let alone some self doubt. Better than putting it out to the universe though (I do think that’s an awesome step towards commitment to this process for you!), please try to put this opportunity on you and your boss to work through in a way that really sets you both up for success. If your boss doesn’t have fully formed ideas on how this will play out yet, or doesn’t have the management skills to make it happen without undue stress and anxiety for you, maybe you need to bring in a coach to help you both with this. Don’t shy from asking your boss if it would be possible for your company to make that investment in you to make this transition successful!

      Whether with your boss or a coach or both, you need to focus on: Define your new role and the goals associated with it – without that you’re lost; work through the steps that will need to be taken to accomplish those goals and define what success looks like; identify your strengths and take an honest look at areas where you’ll need training and support to achieve your goals and identify where that training and support will come from; figure out how you’ll offload your current responsibilities to create the space you need to thrive in this new role; create accountability points/milestones/measurements to track your progress.

      You can totally do this! It may seem like a stretch now but without discomfort we never achieve real growth. So go forward and be uncomfortable for a while. One way or another, the payoff will be worth it. Good luck!

  99. Am I being stalked? What to do? (Straddles work and life)*

    I’m a high school teacher. I work in a very rural, very small school and have been here for 15 years. “Dan,” my “across the hall mate” has been here 8. His son,”Leo” has some serious development issues, and attended the school until he graduated three years ago. Leo was somewhat of a legend at the school. Since Dan was the football coach, Leo would serve as a manager at the games and the kids treated him well. Leo would often visit his dad’s classroom before and after school and I got to know him as well. Leo became somewhat independent after graduation and is able to hold down a very basic, part-time job that he can ride his bike to from his home.

    This past summer, Dan and his wife went on a three week vacation for their anniversary. They asked me if I would be a source of support for Leo while they were away. While Leo was okay to stay by himself, he cannot drive, so I would take him to get groceries and drive him to work if it was raining. I also checked in on him every day with a text or a call. The last day I was to be in this role, Leo sent me a VERY inappropriate text that included a photo of his penis. I told Leo that was inappropriate and that I would be telling his father.

    I showed Dan the text and he claimed that Leo’s phone must’ve been “hacked” or “played with” while Leo was at work. I didn’t believe that explanation, but I accepted it and moved on. The next day, my phone started blowing up with texts from Leo (more than 100 inside 4 hours) asking me if he could “hold on to me” and “take me for a ride on his 4 wheeler” and “kiss me gently.” I forwarded the texts to Dan and did not response to Leo.

    Dan came to my house the next day and said that Leo was not sending those texts. He said he was going to take the phone and see what happens. Then, I started getting texts through some “unknown number” that were the same in tone and writing. A selfie of Leo nude was also sent. I called Dan, thinking this might be something happening at Leo’s job or something.

    This didn’t stop. I was getting 100s of texts a day from different numbers. As soon as I blocked one, another popped up. I went down to the store where Leo worked and spoke with the manager. (I taught all of his children). He told me that Leo had been spending a lot of time on a coworker’s phone and he had already talked to Dan about it two weeks ago! So, Dan knew this was happening and did nothing.

    I changed my number, then school started and everyone was sent contact information for all teachers. This included my new number. Dan, being in my department and a member of the faculty, got this information. The next thing I know, I’m getting crazy texts again. I said something to Dan at work. Dan said Leo was “harmless” and I should just respond to him because he liked me and the more I avoid him, the more miserable it makes Leo. Dan even said those days that my number stopped working Leo became very angry and Dan had to give him medication.

    Last night, when I got home from work, my kids told me that Leo had come by looking for me. I was surprised that he had ridden his bike all the way out here. The kids said he arrived in a car, but not Dan’s car. My son guessed it was an Uber. I don’t want to sound like a paranoid nut, but this whole thing is unsettling.

    Am I being stalked?
    Am I being unsympathetic to Leo’s problems?
    Is it wrong of me to expect Dan to manage his son’s problems?
    What do I do next?

    I’m not going anywhere, and I doubt Dan is, so we will be “across the hall mates” for another 10 years…

    1. Beaded Librarian*

      I think you are being stalked and someone needs to step in and stop Leo. It’s ludicrous of Dan to think that you should “just let Leo text you because not being able to makes him miserable” if that’s the case Leo needs to be in therapy to deal with it. Unfortunately I don’t have any good advice to give you on what to do.

      1. valentine*

        Hundreds of texts is intensely scary. If you haven’t already, document them. Contact your carrier for help with preserving them.

        Dan may be the stalker. (I suppose, though, that he may have given Leo your new number or Leo may have found it.) He’s definitely all kinds of wrong. If Leo has a crush on you, Dan took advantage of you by asking you to be his aide. That’s scary, too.

        Read the local law and school policies on stalking and harassment. Call the police before you make a report to the school. (Because the school has several conflicts of interest and think it’s great to give out everyone’s phone number.) You may also want to hire a lawyer, especially if the football makes Dan royalty.

    2. Ali G*

      Not wrong of you at all. Why is Dan not concerned that apparently someone has naked pictures of his son and is texting them around? Dan sounds like an ass, honestly. I would file a police report about the harassing texts and tell your kids and spouse that if Leo shows up at your house again to call the police. Tell Dan you are doing this and you expect him to make sure the texts stop and that Leo is not following you around any more.

      1. Kathenus*

        Hard agree with Ali G. Protect yourself here. I’d file the police report first then tell Dan, though, so you don’t have to get into a debate with him trying to convince you not to do so. Save the texts, including the ones with Dan where you’ve been telling him this and where he won’t deal with it (if this part is all in text too). This is completely inappropriate and you are 100% correct to be worried about not only dealing with it as is but escalation. Get the authorities involved to protect yourself. Good luck.

    3. BugSwallowersAnonymous*

      My jaw just dropped! You are absolutely being stalked, and you are not being unsympathetic or unreasonable! This is completely bonkers and not okay. Is there someone you can escalate this to? Maybe your principal?

    5. Jellyfish*

      Oh no, that’s terrible! No, you’re not wrong or overreacting. Leo’s developmental disabilities do NOT mean that he gets a free pass to harass people. It certainly doesn’t make it okay for him to make you or anyone else feel unsafe. He will need to deal with his feelings without involving you – just like anyone else must learn to do. It might take a therapist or social worker spelling it out for him, but that’s not your job.

      I’m sorry, I don’t have any good legal or job/social advice. This is a very unfortunate situation, but you shouldn’t have to deal with it just because Dan doesn’t want to. Do you think Dan would take it well if you were more insistent on describing exactly what kind of action you expect him to take?

    6. Llellayena*

      Yes, no, no, police. I know that last step seems extreme, but even if the police don’t do anything, you need the record of the complaint. Change your number again (sorry, I know it’s a pain) and directly inform Dan in writing that he is not to share the new number with his son (documentation). If your state has laws on harassment or electronic harassment/stalking, reference them in correspondence with Dan and the police. Leo needs help and needs to be told to not contact you (not by you, that’s what the police should be for).

      1. BadWolf*

        I would see if the school would withhold internally publishing your number and change it again. “I’m dealing with a potential stalking issue and I can’t have my personal number publish, even internally to the school. Thank you so much for understanding. I hope this won’t need to be permanent.”

        1. sacados*

          Agreed. And depending on the politics of your school, it could be a good idea to bring your Principal in on this. Assuming you trust them to handle it well, explain that Dan’s son has been stalking you/sending inappropriate texts, explain that it stopped when you changed your number and started up again once the faculty directory was shared, that you have spoken to Dan multiple times and he is not being helpful to resolve the situation.
          Hopefully you’re not in a situation where the Principal would take Dan’s side/dismiss your concerns or make this worse.
          But I agree with everyone else, you need to take concrete steps to protect yourself asap even if that means going to the police. This is definitely complicated by the fact that you and Dan work together, but if you have the support of the school you can hopefully continue to coexist by pretending the other doesn’t exist when possible and chilly professionalism any time you do have to interact.

          1. just a random teacher*

            In schools I’ve worked in, you’d need to give the office manager/school secretary a heads-up in order to actually keep your number from being released to other teachers. If it’s not politically possible to go to the principal, a quiet word in the secretary’s ear may also be a good middle ground.

            They’re usually the ones who do things like create and distribute the staff phone tree (every school I’ve worked in has had a phone tree so emergency messages could be passed along, although I assume that this will get less common now that texting is a thing – I don’t think we’ve every actually used ours in the past 5 years or so, but it was very common for weather emergency closures and such a decade ago to be communicated by phone tree). If politically possible, the more people in the front office know that you specifically need Leo (and thus, Dan) to not be able to contact you the more likely this is to work. To get policy changes (like Leo barred from campus) you’d need the principal, but to get those things actually enforced, you need to win over the office manager.

            This also feels like a “police” situation to me. You’ve tried to handle it informally with both Leo and Dan and that didn’t work. Leo needs to find a way to not do this, and it’s not your job to help him figure one out. It’s not a reasonable thing to expect you to put up with and it sounds like it may escalate in ways that are not safe. If he needs some sort of systemic help to stop doing this, that process needs to get started.

    7. BadWolf*

      Yes, No, No.

      I had a coworker who clearly was struggling with a mental illness. He latched onto me and started proto-stalking me. While I had sympathies (he was clearly having a lot of self doubt and feeling homesick and lonely) but man, lines were crossed. Fortunately for me, my manager talked to him and he stopped (after I had told him to stop and I did not want to be friends other than coworkers). I still felt awkward around him and altered some of my walking paths and made a mental plan of what to do if he showed up at my house.

      Even if you didn’t really care, Leo absolutely needs to be curbed of this behavior before he is in legal troubles or if he does this to someone else, might hurt him.

      1. BadWolf*

        Or if this isn’t Leo and someone is doing this to mess with him — or manipulating him into doing these things, then he is also a victim here and that absolutely needs to be stopped as well.

        1. LilySparrow*

          This is an excellent point. If someone is taking advantage of Leo in order to convince him to take nude photos, that is abuse and there’s probably a state agency of adult services that should get looped in. But that’s the police’s job to figure out.

      2. BadWolf*

        And if you haven’t already, save everything. Take screen shots of all the texts.

        Write down dates, times, things that happened even if it seems stupid to record it. At least do it for your sanity. Whenever you doubt that it was really “that bad” peruse the list of events and remember “Oh yeah, all this crazy bleep happened.”

    8. PlatypusOo*

      I am so sorry this is happening to you. This is very serious and will probably escalate, especially since he’s now coming to your home. You need to go to the police right now, file a report and get a restraining order. Don’t talk to your coworker anymore about his son, he’s clearly no help. Good luck and I hope everything will turn out ok.

    9. Dusty Bunny*

      Not to sound alarmist, but –
      Document all incidents, and report to the police, sheriff’s department, whatever you have in your small rural town. Dan is doing Leo no favors by pretending that Leo is not doing these things on his own. The fact that Leo has figured out how to get around his blocked number by using someone else’s phone, and possibly taking an Uber to your house? No, no, no.

      And check out the www dot captainawkward dot com archives for stalkers and Geek Social Fallacies. The Captain frequently has good scripts for these situations.

    10. CupcakeCounter*

      Actually it is wrong of Dan to expect YOU to manage his son’s problem, which is what he is asking you to do by responding to him.
      File the police report and alert your school administration since Leo should not be allowed on the property

    11. CheeryO*

      What a horrible situation. I agree with what’s been said, but also, I work on accepting that your relationship with Dan is going to go into the toilet. The fact that he seems to think this whole thing is NBD does not bode well for things to come. You need to look out for you.

      1. Witchy Human*

        Dan’s behavior is completely abhorrent. Deliberately placing someone in the path of sexual harassment IS sexual harassment, IMO.

        1. WellRed*

          And he’s a teacher! God forbid Leo fixated on a student. Let, you are being stalked. Dan is not helping his son. Leo needs outside help.

    12. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      You have a big Dan problem as well. That’s the route I’d take since you might get blow back over Leo due to his disability. Go to the school or union if you have one and tell them all about the phone number issue and that you’ve tried to work with Dan to get the texts and calls to stop, and tell them what Dan’s response was. I’m sure that giving non-employees numbers on that list is against policy — so Dan goes down for that. Also be clear that Dan is not your friend and you are under no obligation to be friendly with him or his wife any longer. They just burned the hell out of that bridge. If you go after Dan, he might decide it’s in his best interests to rein in his son.

      Also, yes, Leo is stalking you and you could file police reports for everything.

    13. Koala dreams*

      1. You are being stalked. I’m so sorry you have these horrible things happen to you. :(
      2. No matter how sympathetic you are to criminals, it shouldn’t stop you from taking steps to protect yourself.
      3. It was kind of you to give Dan a chance to manage his sons problems instead of going straight to the police, however Dan has showed himself to be an asshole so you don’t need to give him any more chances, ever.

      In addition to all the excellent suggestions above, I’ll suggest you find a lawyer to help you out.

    14. LilySparrow*

      Leo’s behavior is threatening, wildly inappropriate, and in many places would be illegal. If he is unable to live his life as a good member of the community and a law-abiding citizen, then he is not ready to live independently.

      You have already given the compassionate response, which is to alert his family that something is terribly wrong. Since they are unwilling or unable to help, involving the police is the next logical step.

      If you wish to invest further in your professional relationship with Dan, by all means let him know before you talk to the police, so he can support Leo and help him navigate the situation.

      I don’t mean giving Dan an ultimatum, just letting him know that it’s going to happen, so he can be prepared.

      If Leo is living as an independent adult, and his family can’t be responsible for his actions, then he must deal with society’s boundaries on his behavior.

        1. Lilysparrow*

          Oh, on a personal level of course! Dan already nuked any hope of a friendly situation by being a complete enabling entitled asshole.

          But they will have to have a professional relationship, in the sense that they will continue to coexist in the same workplace. So there is some value to OP in taking the high ground of intentionally doing everything in a very transparent way.

          It’s not a “have to,” and it may not be worth it. But there is some subjective value.

    16. 1LFTW*

      Yes, no, no.

      You are not responsible for Leo’s behavior, and you are not responsible for his feelings. It’s not your problem that Leo was “very angry” when your number stopped working, because Leo is responsible for dealing with his own feelings, and Dan did not “have to give him medication”, Dan *chose* to give him medication. Leo’s next target may not be a colleague of his father’s who can be subject to emotional blackmail in an attempt to sweep this under the rug, so in the long run, it’s probably better for you, your family, and Leo if to go to the police now. Unfortunately, that leaves you to cope with the fallout of calling the cops on a colleague’s disabled son.

      My only suggestion is to say to Dan, “You said you thought someone from Leo’s workplace was messing with his phone to send these messages, so I involved the police out of concern for him, because he’s vulnerable and I hate to think of someone using him to cause trouble in this way”. If it comes up at school, you don’t have to say that Leo was sending inappropriate messages, just that “inappropriate messages were sent from Leo’s phone”. Leo is innocent until proven guilty, and someone might be manipulating him into doing this, so keep it focused on “Leo’s phone” rather than Leo.

      Best of luck with this. My heart goes out to you, and I hope you (and Leo) find the help you need.

      PS: Dan sucks.

    17. Quandong*

      I’m so sorry you’re in this situation. Yes, you are being stalked by a person who is escalating. You are not unsympathetic to him.

      You also aren’t wrong to expect Dan to act as a responsible adult in managing his son’s behaviours. Dan has completely lost any credibility as a person who can be trusted to handle what is happening, and seems like he is in denial about the criminal aspects of Leo’s actions.

      What I think you should do next is document everything you can remember, and go to the police, today. Find out what you can do to increase security at your home immediately. Now you know Leo is prepared to travel there by Uber, it’s a more risky environment for you, unfortunately. Make a safety plan that includes your children, that maybe includes staying temporarily at another location unknown to Leo and his family.

      Search this site for ‘stalking name change’ to find a long thread with many suggestions for resources.

      Best wishes for getting yourself safely through this. Trust your instincts especially since Leo is escalating his behaviours.

  100. Jamie*

    I’m a good girl!

    That’s what the external auditor called me for having a correct answer during a week long audit from hell.

    You will all be shocked to know none of my male colleagues were referred to as ‘good boys’ when he liked their answers.

    But happy to know I’m a good girl! Woof!

      1. Jamie*

        I didn’t say anything but he recoiled a little from the look on my face so I think I looked less than flattered.

        Having to spend almost 40 hours joined at the hip to another person should be against some international human rights law.

        1. Aurion*

          Did he also say it in the high pitched squeaky voice people use with five-year-olds? (Happened to me. From a woman, no less. Oh, if looks could kill…)

          Sympathies and solidarity.

          1. Jamie*

            With a giant smile – like you’d praise a puppy for sitting on command!

            I have never been so happy for an audit to be over…I need food. And a nap. And a French martini.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I wish you had responded with “I’m not a good girl. I’m the BESTEST girl.”

      Then I’d start calling all the guys around me “good boys” because this would become a huge joke around here. It would be that record screeching, camera pans to Becky to see if she flips a table on an auditor.

      Some vendor once called me “kid” and it didn’t end well for that dbag.

    9. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      You’re a much good-er girl than I am. I think I would’ve bitten him for that. I second the Scooby Snack — equal parts melon liqueur, coconut rum, creme de banana, pineapple juice and whipped cream.

  101. Frankie*

    New open space is killing my morale. I can’t concentrate at all and leadership only want us working one day from home per week. This despite the fact that several people have individual arrangements to work up to 4 days per week from home. No one has made suggestions for how to actually be productive in this godforsaken space.

    On top of that, I’m right next to a room that sees traffic from several groups of random contractors most days, literally all day long, with drilling included.

    I can’t focus, can’t get work done. “Use one of our offices for an hour.” Thanks, but if I have to squat at someone else’s desk just to get a minimum of work done this setup isn’t working.

    Just a rant, I guess. Everyone seems to magically expect our work to get done at the same pace and same level of quality as before. I don’t know how I can stay a good employee in this space.

    1. Not a Real Accountant*

      Yeah I feel for you–open offices are definitely the bane of my existence right now… I’m sure there’s plenty of times where they’re a useful setup, but it’s definitely not a one size fits all type of arrangement (like sticking your accounting department right smack dab in the open! Putting aside my personal working condition preferences, I still think that’s kinda weird, but hey I’m not a real accountant, so what do I know).

      Unfortunately, I don’t really have any tips for you, just commiserating…

    2. The New Wanderer*

      We have that situation now and I’ve been in it before (complete with construction next door both times). My personal solution was to work from home, but that was better tolerated by management. The official policy is 1 day/week but pretty much all I had to say was, the drilling is giving me a headache – and I was far from the only person to do this (some worked from other buildings, some worked from home).

      Assuming the construction has a limited timeline, I would definitely ask for accommodation to work from home more than once a week for the period that the construction is continuing. If it would help your case, download a sound level app for your phone, take a screen shot when the drilling is happening, and compare that value to OSHA recommended limits for noise exposure.

  102. Drogon's sister*

    Quick question – I have, and many others I know, taken a little time off (typically a week) between jobs.

    I just heard from a friend, who was giving two weeks notice, that he told NewJob that he was taking a week off with his wife and would start in 3 weeks, that they really had an issue with it. They wanted him in right away even though it is their slow season (meaning OK to give notice but why do you need time off?).

    Is this common now? Just curious, I think it’s natural and healthy to want a few days, a week tops, if you can afford it. He doesn’t work for them yet… anyway, just wondering if others have dealt with this.

    2. Kathenus*

      I’ve taken some time off between jobs whenever I can, so it may not be universal but it’s very common. The new employer’s reaction isn’t great here, but the best way to avoid that in the future is not to tell them any details. Just negotiate a start date. They don’t need to know when you end the old job related to the start date, none of their business if there is/isn’t time off in between.

    3. Schnoodle HR*

      I fear his new employer is not a good one.

      Asking for 3 weeks isn’t bad. I took a week off in between once, and it was great. Would do again.

    4. BadWolf*

      I’m always surprised when people start right away — like last day was Friday at old job, start on Monday on new job.

      Taking a week between seems like it would be beneficial for many jobs (assuming your budget and health allows). Clear your head of your old job, get rested up, maybe spruce up your wardrobe if necessary.

    5. Drogon's sister*

      Thanks everyone, just checking.

      The new employer is also making an issue of seeing his non-compete agreement with his current employer and, last I heard, going back on another request that was made while negotiating his offer (around vacation time once employed – he asked for 2 weeks upfront which isn’t the norm for some reason at this company, I believe they want people to work a year before giving any vacation time)… so I think all these flags are making my friend reconsider after all. Better he know now!

      1. BadWolf*

        No vacation time for the year? Grumpy that he can’t start yesterday? Grumpy about non-compete? Yeah, that sounds like All Work and Shady Practice Job to me.

        1. Drogon's sister*

          I reached out to my friend, to check in, let him know what the folks here said. He had declined the offer today!

  103. Mona Lisa*

    Should you include or is there a good place to put conference presenter status on a resume/ LinkedIn? I found out that I was selected to give a talk at a major industry conference (tens of thousands of attendees), and since I’m job searching, I’m wondering if it’s something I should include anywhere once I’ve given the presentation.

    1. Antilles*

      That’s perfectly fine to include. Here’s a few options I’ve seen:
      1.) I’ve seen a few resumes with “Publications and Conference Proceedings” and it slots right in there.
      2.) If it’s based on work you did at your last job, you could work it into your written description of the work under that job – “Developed new methodologies of spout design that saved over $50 million and were presented at Teapots of America 2019 conference”.
      3.) Mention it in your cover letter not the resume itself.
      Note: You don’t really need to wait until “once you’ve given the presentation”. Presuming that it’s already set in stone that you’ll be presenting, it’s fair game to list it right now. Just date it as “upcoming, November 2019” or whatever so it’s clear that it’s coming up soon.

    2. Kathenus*

      I used to have most of my presentations in one resume section, something like “Publications and Presentations”. But now that I have some invited speaker and workshop organizer experiences I added a section above this to pull out these types of things to highlight them better.

  104. PBC no symptoms*

    I’m a HR manager, mid-50s, and have recently been diagnosed with a chronic liver disease. I’m trying to decide the best route to take in terms of work. My job is good, I’m relatively well paid and well respected, although the commute is difficult. Right now I’m feeling fine and don’t have a good idea of what to expect in terms of my health. The disease can “wax and wane” for many years.
    I’m going back and forth in my head between staying here and earning as much as I can for as long as I can, and looking for something closer to home with less responsibility. Of course I need the health insurance, so that’s an important consideration. Now that I’m typing this out, I guess I can start to look and see what’s out there, before having to make any type of actual decision.
    If anyone has been in a similar situation, I’d appreciate hearing how you handled it. Thanks!

    1. Fikly*

      I have a lot of chronic illnesses that have affected what jobs I can sustain.

      I would have a long talk with your doctor about what will support your health, what will stress your health, and what that looks like in both the good and bad periods.

      And then look at whether your current job will provide what you need, and if not, identify what jobs will do that.

      1. PBC no symptoms*

        Thanks for your response. I appreciate it. It’s very difficult to deal with all of the unknowns.

        1. valentine*

          I would stay where you are and save as much as you can, while looking for easier jobs with good healthcare.

  105. Kesnit*

    I’m in a field known for burnout and need for self-care. I’ve been doing my job for about 2.5 years, like the work and like my co-workers. In that time, I’ve never taken a vacation longer than 4 days (including weekend, so 2 days off work). I do have a 10-day vacation (Friday through a week from the following Monday) planned for next February.

    The past month has been difficult emotionally. I had two days off for a whirlwind trip to a city 5 hours away for the funeral of a long-time friend who had committed suicide. (The funeral was Thursday at 7pm, so I was off Thursday and Friday.) My annual eval (the week after the funeral) was OK, but there were some things that really confused me and that I know I’ll have to sit down with my boss and discuss. My wife and I were puppy-sitting for some friends for 5 days which meant 5 days of little sleep and tripping over dogs. (We also have a puppy and the two puppies play really well together. However, the play is rough and tumble, though there is no risk of serious injury.) I had a few work events (which I knew about in advance) which are always a little anxiety-inducing. (They are part of the job and things I will become more comfortable with as I get more experience.) I spent several hours this week having a client rant and rave about everyone except me. (Although I found out today he called our office to complain about me, too.)

    Now it is the weekend and I am going into an easier time at work starting next week. Does anyone have ways they calm down and de-stress which do not involve taking time off (which only works as long as I am off work). My normal de-stresser is reading or playing video games, but even those are not working very well for me.

    2. vanillacookies*

      I second the above exercise comment. You can get beginner yoga videos on youtube which can be good for light exercise.

    4. OtterB*

      Time outside. Long scenic walks are good, but I have physical limitations which means I’m better with finding a bench or taking a folding camp chair some place that’s fairly quiet and scenic but not too long a hike from the parking lot. Botanic gardens are good, too.

    5. AnonJ*

      De-stress for me that might help you:

      At home – planning and cooking good healthy meals, with an added side of freezing some of those good healthy meals for later when I’m totally slammed at work and I don’t have time to cook. One of my favorites is making lasagna with noodles that don’t have to be pre-boiled and loaded up with veggies in addition to the traditional meat and cheeses. I buy a 3 pack of foil mini-bread pans and the noodles (of a particular brand that rhymes with TheyFillYa) fit perfectly. I make homemade sauce and filling mixtures then layer them up in the 3 pans, one for tonight (and tomorrow), one to give to a friend/neighbor, one to freeze for another day when cooking after work is just not gonna happen.

      Also at home – I too have a new dog, though he’s a 2 year old rescue, not a puppy. A solid routine of walks, training time, and deliberate, involved playtime is such a stress reliever for me and great for Doug the Dog as well! With a new dog you can go all out on training – check out youtube videos. There’s so many directions you can go in beyond basic training – dancing, canine good citizen, search and rescue, agility – the possibilities are endless and so is the satisfaction and awesome bond you’ll build with your dog.

      At work during the rare downtime – making a list of all the less urgent/little things I’ve been wanting to get to, doing them, and crossing them off that list. It feels GREAT and I find I can really leave work at work feeling like I’ve knocked things down so tomorrow feels less dire.

      I encourage your trying to think outside your box of normal de-stressers. Try some new things and find the ones that are enjoyable even if they’re a bit of a stretch for your comfort level. Sometimes pushing ourselves outside of our regular comfort zones is a really great distraction from the daily grind.

  106. Beth Jacobs*

    I’m the kind of person who needs perfect conditions to concentrate.

    Issue # 1 – My office is kinda noisy.
    Solution: Listen to classical music on my phone with headphones.

    Issue # 2 – I get distracted by a phone pretty easily, I find myself unable to resist looking at a notification.
    Solution: Leave the phone in my bag or lock it in a drawer

    Do you see the problem? I’m thinking maybe wireless headphones might help?

    1. Goose Lavel*

      Turn off notifications on your phone while you’re listening to music. You can always check your phone during breaks and lunch.

    2. littlelizard*

      Can you not use your work computer to listen to music? I often have a YouTube tab open with something playing.

      1. AudreyParker*

        This. It has actually never occurred to me to use my phone to listen to things when I’m at work, sitting in front of a computer where I can stream things.

      2. Beth Jacobs*

        I guess I’m concerned about web usage being monitored, but working to music is so common it shouldn’t register as a slacking off activity.

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Set your phone to do-not-disturb and leave it face-down on the desk. But also, yes, bluetooth headphones might do the trick, assuming the connection is strong enough with your phone in a drawer or whatnot.

      2. Girr*

        The dnd on my phone is hardcore. My old phone would show phone calls coming in, but not buzz for them. This phone? I missed a few kinda important phone calls because I didn’t realize how literal it took dnd. So if you go this route, be diligent about taking it off when you leave work.

    4. KR*

      I got a cell phone stand for my desk and it really helps. I just put my phone on the stand and put it way in the corner of my desk and I leave it alone because that’s where it goes in my mind. But also silence your notifications during the day. It will help.

    5. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      I have a non-phone mp3 player for listening to music that does nothing but play music. I like it because it is cheap (so I am not worried about losing it or it getting stolen if I leave it sitting out on my desk at night), small, light, and doesn’t do anything else. For me, it also helps because that way the music is all music I’ve specifically selected and things I’ve heard before, so I don’t end up paying too much attention to the music.

  107. Dubious in the South*

    Question about a hypothetical situation wrt transitioning from salary to hourly:

    My (small, < 50 employees) company recently decided to transition the non-exempt salary people to hourly. That's totally fine with me, since we weren't getting any benefits from being salary: I once got talked to "only" clocking 39.5 hours, my manager more than once complained about how unfair it is that they have to pay for hours not worked AND overtime, and they still used the "half-time" calculation for salaried overtime pay instead of time and a half. (IE, you get paid half your "hourly" rate for any overtime. Yes, it's BS and our state workforce commission says it's not allowed, and yes I tried to push back against it and was told "this is how we do things".)

    So, I'm fine with going hourly. They announced it a few days ago at our staff meeting and said they would be meeting with us this week to "let us know" what our new hourly rate would be. An employee said, "well, that's easy, don't you just divide our weekly salary by 40?" and the owner of our company responded that it was more complicated than that and they have to "figure out" what our new hourly rate will be and some other things I can't remember that implied our hourly rate would be lower.

    That's….not how that's supposed to work, right? That sounds pretty damn shady to me.

    1. Jamie*

      That’s some illegal bs if they weren’t paying you time and a half for OT. That’s how they do things but if it’s against the law they’re going to pay for that with some serious backpay when it’s caught.

      1. Dubious in the South*

        YUP that’s how I felt, too, and I’m seriously wondering if this move is a belated reaction to my talking to the owner now that we’ve added employees or if someone else complained.

        (NB: per the state workforce commission, the half-time calculation is allowed if the employee’s hours are irregular. IE if some weeks they work 30 and some weeks they work 50, you’re allowed to pay half-time for hours over 40. My company owner’s argument was that “sometimes you work a couple hours over 40, so that’s an irregular schedule” which is…not correct.)

        1. valentine*

          they have to “figure out” what our new hourly rate will be
          Look for them to figure out how much OT they want, decide on a maximum, and set your hourly wage low enough that OT does not rise above that max.

          Report them for the OT theft.

    2. Susan K*

      There was a lot of discussion about this a few years ago when the new overtime law (which was later blocked) was pending. There was a post here on it titled, “the new overtime pay rules are here — if you earn less than $47,476, read this” (if you enter this in the site search bar, you can find the post).

      One of the possibilities that Alison mentioned in this post is:

      “If you regularly work more than 40 hours a week, your employer might choose to reduce your base hourly wage to account for the overtime pay you’ll need to receive, in order to ensure that your overall annual compensation stays about where it is now.”

      So yeah, it sucks and it’s not really fair, but you also have to realize the employer might not be prepared for a sudden increase in payroll and may want to deal with that by reducing the hourly pay rate. (But also, they owe you back pay from when they were breaking the law by paying half-time to non-exempt employees for overtime.)

    3. Nicotene*

      ugh watch your monthly paycheck like a hawk. there’s all sorts of ways they can screw with it but that’s where the crap really hits the fan

  108. Majestic Space Whale*

    So, after reading for a long time and learning so many useful tips, I have found my first full time job and I am starting Tuesday! I was wondering if anyone has any useful tips for my first day? I am looking forward to it, but still I’m kind of nervous…

    1. Jamie*

      Congratulations! When you have first day nerves just remember they are happy you’re there or they wouldn’t have hired you.

      Also, if you have options, check out all the bathrooms to find the good one.

    2. Susan K*

      Congrats on the new job! My advice is to turn off your phone before you go in and leave it off. It makes a bad impression, especially as a new person and even more so if you’re young, to be checking your phone, playing with your phone, texting, etc. You don’t want people who are meeting you for the first time to have the impression that the new person is “always on his/her phone.” Even if you’re bored and have nothing to do (which is quite likely in your first few weeks), resist the temptation to fill that time by pulling out your phone.

    3. Auntie Social*

      You’re going to be taking lots of notes. Stick a steno pad or whatever you like to take notes on in your bag, in case they don’t have such a thing. Bring a couple of your favorite pens, if you have them.

      1. CL*

        Adding on to this, take the pad and a pen with you anytime you go to see someone, even if they don’t say it’s a meeting. No one is going to think of it as a bad thing, and it shows that you are prepared in case there is anything you want to note/need to remember/etc. And definitely write down any project details you are given. It can be easy to forget or get things muddled in those first few weeks, with info coming at you from everywhere. You can always go over your notes at the end of the day and pull out what is essential and put the rest of the info away in a file.

    4. Majestic Space Whale*

      Thanks everyone, those are some great, very practical tips! I definitely try to keep on mind that they actually want me there (I even have proof, as I have actually turned down the role I have initially interviewed for due to very crappy shift system and they apparently really wanted me, because they instead offered me a different job, with flexible hours and even slightly higher pay!).
      I am also wondering about what to wear. I didn’t really catch the norms when I was in for my interview, nothing was mentioned about any dresscode so far, and I’m just really not sure! Would it be insane to shoot an e-mail to the HR on Monday to check, or does anyone have any ideas about the general level I should stick to? Obviously I won’t stroll in in anything ridiculously casual, but… yeah. I am slightly stressing out over that one.

      1. WellRed*

        Did you get a sense during the interview of dress code? Otherwise, I no jeans for sure. In addition to other advice, make sure you have life stuff in hand for the week. Bills paid, has filled up, laundry done, easy meals when you get home, whatever makes you tick.

    5. Nicki Name*

      Bring a lunch, and then find out where the fridge is as soon as you can so you can stick the lunch in there, in case it turns out that one of your new workplace’s traditions is “take the new person out to lunch on their first day”.

    6. Bring Hawkeye to the Details*

      When you meet new people, be sure to respond with their name in the first few sentences. It helps solidify their name in your mind.

  109. Lost in translation*

    Recommendations for learning Spanish in order to be considered for non-profit client services positions? In order to be considered for these positions, what level of Spanish would I need to know considering I’m not a native speaker?

    I’m considering positions in which I can serve Spanish speaking clients, in the non-profit financial stability and tax preparation field. I’ve been employed in this area, so I know the technical aspects but relied on translators to assist with Spanish speaking clients. I know enough Spanish to welcome a client and then transition them to a translator and/or Spanish speak client services provider.

    Are online programs sufficient? Should I be looking at a Rosetta Stone type? Would it be better to do an in-person course? I realize that knowing the language is one part, I would also need to learn cultural aspects of serving the Spanish community but that usually is available within the non-profit and of course, OJT.

    Can volunteering be a good practicum or would I need to be supervised?

    1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      You’re going to want to be fluent for client services. Online programs are definitely not going to be enough — you are absolutely, 100% going to need experience in speaking with real people before you start job-hunting with a second language. IME, solo language learning really doesn’t work to any functional degree — it will teach you words and some very basic grammar, but every program I’ve found tends to focus heavily on isogloss vocabulary, where you learn word-for-word substitutions that don’t actually reflect how languages vary. You don’t actually learn how to express ideas in another language, only how to do a find-and-replace that retains most English idioms. Plus, with a program that doesn’t include an instructor, you can’t ask for questions or clarification on anything you don’t understand.

      In addition, consider that if you’re looking at tax preparation or similar, you’re going to need both the high-level technical vocabulary and the ability to explain what that vocabulary means to the clients you’re assisting, as they may not be knowledgeable in that field.

      I would absolutely look for in-person courses, and be prepared to spend at least a couple years learning the language before you’re ready to use it professionally.

    3. Princesa Zelda*

      I’d highly recommend taking an in-person Spanish course taught by a native speaker. The fastest way would be an intensive language program, which may be available at a local college or uni. With an intensive program, it would probably take about a year to get up to Intermediate Mid; I’m not sure how high you need to go to do tax work, but I’m about an Intermediate Mid and get by alright in customer service positions once I learn the specific vocabulary.

      There’s also a lot to be said for learning by osmosis. If you can spend several hours a week in an environment where people only speak Spanish, that will help you out a lot. I took Spanish in school for 14 years, but never retained as much in all that time as I did from the couple years I spent working in a fast food joint where we all spoke Spanish in the kitchen.

      1. Princesa Zelda*

        Ack, it should read that I’m about an Advanced Low/Mid. I’m clearly not Superior in English, lol!

  110. Ali A*

    I’m not happy with how my regular 1:1s with director/management-level folks at my company (I am HR). Does anyone have any advice on regular questions/bullet points for meetings like this, that would prompt productive conversation?

    Right now it’s mostly me asking “Any problems?” and reminding them of any upcoming employee performance review dates. These meetings are every 6 weeks, for context.

    1. Fikly*

      One of my favorite parts of my 1:1s with my manager is that we both get to bring up specific examples of work product to go over and say, this worked, this could have been improved. It’s been super helpful. I work in a different field, but is there anything like that you could point to?

    2. Dr. Anonymous*

      What’s going well? What do you need help with? What took up the most of your time this week? What’s worrying you?

    3. Approval is optional*

      Late reply – time zones! – but I’d suggest asking them how you can best help them meet their department’s business goals, if this isn’t done at a higher level – by an HR exec or the like. So perhaps have this discussion when they are doing their strategic planning/budget bids -to help them, and you, finalise plans/bids, and then have a follow up discussion after approvals (so you can discuss amendments based on which plans/budget bids were approved).
      Between these planning meetings, check in on how the plan is unfolding, if your contribution is going as planned, if it needs to be changed etc. Also, as Fikly suggested, debriefing type questions (about ‘non-plan’ issues too) – eg did X training meet their needs?; was Y payroll issue resolved in a timely manner and if not what could you do to improve the process for them? And rather than ‘any problems’ perhaps something more along the lines of ‘is there anything we can help you with/you’d like to run by me’ – they might not have a problem per se (and one person’s problem is another person’s challenge, so they might not see a ‘troublesome’ issue as a problem), but might have issues/situations they could use your input on.

    4. LQ*

      Is it you or them asking for them? Every 6 weeks seems like a lot unless there is stuff happening. Part of this is what is in scope for you? Training? Compliance stuff? Discipline? Hiring? Benefits? It might be good to look at your schedule and identify things that are coming up.

      “We are looking at revamping the new hire orientation piece we do and are looking for feedback from you.”
      “Do you have any hirings you are thinking about in the next couple months?”
      “Do your staff need any information about benefits?”

      You could likely come up with a sort of touch base about what you offer support in and rotate through that yearly or so. January is for asking about training, February is for hiring support, April is for benefits updates….etc.

  111. PlzLeaveMeAlone*

    Hey, all. I have spent the last few years learning to cope with a very overbearing boss who has no work-life balance whatsoever. He has a very bad habit of texting me all hours of the morning/day/evening. Sometimes they are work-related, but in most cases (even when work-related), they are just him venting or making one-off comments… or about things completely unrelated to TV (random observations, what’s happening at home, something on TV, a tweet he saw, etc.). To protect my own boundaries, I have made it a point to just not respond if it’s not something that requires action on my part. But he obviously isn’t aware of social signals and continues to text. Is there anything else I can do, besides ignoring him? I’m hesitant to be confrontational about it because he’s *extremely* sensitive and will definitely take it personally. I also mute my notifications on his text threads, which has helped. But… any other suggestions?

      1. valentine*

        If text isn’t required for work, I would block him from texting. I think he’ll be less likely to leave rambling voicemails, especially if he doesn’t live alone. Wait until you’re in the office and on the clock to read/listen to his crap. Maybe get a Google Voice number for him.

        But, unless you think he’ll fire you on the spot, I would find a polite way to tell him to stop getting personal.

    2. OtterB*

      If he’s not complaining about you not responding on off-hours, then I think just muting him is the way to go.

  112. Can I hear a Wahoo?*

    tw weight issues

    I’ve recently put on a bit of weight that is making my work skirts/pants not fit great. I have no idea if/when I can knock the weight down (I just turned 27 and I have a feeling I am settling into myself, but I may just be over snacking, so who knows?) so I don’t want to go get new clothes since much of my wardrobe is new from the last year when I started a new role. Any suggestions to what to do in the meantime? I’ve looked at my pants and I don’t think there’s a way to let them out a bit. Should I just buy something while I figure out if this is my new normal? What have others done with weight fluxes?

    1. LawBee*

      Get new clothes. Sorry! But you’ll look better with clothes that fit, which will make you feel better. But you don’t have to break the bank to do it – two-three pairs of pants that fit (a black, and two other colors/patterns that you like and that fit the rest of your wardrobe), and 2-3 skirts if you want. If you can wear Old Navy/Target, go for that, especially if you think you may be back in your original size at some point.

      But yeah. It sucks, but it’s time to shop.

      1. House Tyrell*

        I also recommend thrift stores or Poshmark app if you don’t want to spend a lot! If you really truly don’t want to buy more, then you can sew a little loop onto the side of the pant that has the hole and that will extend the reach to the button, then wear a longer blouse untucked to cover that. But I agree you’d feel more comfortable in pants that fit!

      2. Can I hear a Wahoo?*

        ugh. I am such a minimalist that I only have two pairs of trousers that I wear almost every work day, so buying new clothes for me is essentially buying a new wardrobe. Maybe I’ll hit a thrift store and see what I can find…

    3. Kiki*

      In fall and winter, my weight shifts upwards and then back down as it warms up. I’ve found that intentionally loose dresses (e.g. shirt dresses, drapey sweater dresses) work best to accommodate this shift and still look really nice. I know you don’t want to buy new stuff, but if you’re a person who wears dresses, I’ve never regretted having these in my arsenal. Also, so comfy. Alternatively: elastic waist pants. The elastic waists aren’t always super polished-looking for more formal offices, but if you wear shirts or tunics that cover them up, it’s all good

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You should always dress the body you have now, not the body you may have later. Which means don’t buy clothes too small or not buy clothes because your clothes are now too small.

      I’m the same way, only a couple of pairs of pants and tops. [I gasped the other day when the person who lost their bags said the airline only reimburse you for like 1100 for lost baggage and it wasn’t enough to cover their loss. My entire closet costs less than that, lol.]

      Otherwise you can do some Thanksgiving dinner tricks, if they have a button, you can use a rubber band to earn yourself some more room in pants in the stomach region if that’s an issue.

      But honestly, you’re running a risk here by wearing too small clothes! That’s how you split them out in the middle of a meeting ;)

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Only rule is that you have to make sure that I don’t go back for another cold brew or it’s your job to peel me off the walls.

      2. CL*

        I gave myself a huge welt on my stomach with the rubber band thing once! From then on, I wear some sort of shirt tucked in under a larger shirt that hangs out. No more tummy burns.

        I have, right now, three sizes of pants and two sizes of dresses and tops. The dresses are either loose and flowy or fitted on top with a looser skirt. I have a poochy stomach, so I don’t tuck unless there’s something over it to cover.

    5. Nicotene*

      my weight is allll over the place rn (some kind of health / stress issue? I’m down about 30 lbs but not buying new clothes bc it’ll just go back up eventually). as others have said, I did hit up thrift stores to supplement – my shirts still fit ok, and any elastic waist skirts still fit, and looser dresses are a good option bc they can be belted or paired with cardigans that will correct fit issues. a lot of long midi dresses. tbh i look a little dowdy at the moment with too-long skirts and gaping tops but a year ago i looked like a little snug little sausage in some of my pants and pencil skirts. put those aside at the time, now they’re coming back out. you can create a wardrobe with a 50-pound swing if you’re careful.

    6. Bess*

      When I was dealing with weight fluctuations I bought a couple of dresses w/belts and skirts with some give, so they’d work for me with a ~15 lb variation or so. Can you buy some flexible clothes that would work whether you stay closer to this weight or not?

      But, yes, buy at least a couple of new things that fit you right, if you can afford it. A pair of pants that fits is particularly important, I think.

    7. AudreyParker*

      I just buy a few new clothes but try not to spend a lot – LOFT often has really good sales, but ebay is also good for this (and you often spend less on shipping than at Poshmark), especially if you know the brand/style you like and just want a different size. I don’t go into it like I’m planning a long term wardrobe (initially!), but I know I’ll feel better if I’m wearing things that fit.

    8. Policy wonk*

      Depends on how tight things are, but I’d go with Spanx. If they don’t solve the issue you need to buy a few things that fit.

  113. on the hunt*

    I need examples of nice phrasing to use in an email withdrawing from the job application process, but without burning a bridge with someone who I definitely need to keep on my side for networking purposes, but can be a little vindictive when she feels like she’s been played, however unfounded that belief may be.

    the tl;dr version is that I called her for job hunting advice, she recruited me to apply for her almost immediately (not the red flag that it sounds, trust me), I was interested and excited and did an interview with her boss, but have since realized that I don’t want the job for various reasons. (I don’t want to move, it’s doing the same work I’m doing now that I’m a little tired of, and even though the pay would be much higher, it’s just not worth it, etc.)

    Her hiring process is very slow due to ~reasons~, so I’m not actually anticipating an offer any time soon, although to my knowledge I’m the only person she’s been talking to. I like her personally and need to stay on her good side professionally, but I just don’t want it. How do I withdraw and maintain the relationship?

    1. OtterB*

      When you say “move,” is it just moving companies, or does it involve an actual relocation? If it would require you to relocate, I think that’s an easy out – you’ve thought about it and just aren’t ready to relocate at this time.

      1. On the hunt*

        Different state. I guess I do have the right to change my mind, don’t I? I did think I wanted to move but then I remembered (after going there) that I absolutely hate that city.

        1. OtterB*

          You absolutely have the right to reconsider. And you didn’t even set out to apply for a job, just to talk to her. I mean, she might get annoyed anyway, but I think relocation is less touchy than having to say “I don’t want to work for your organization.” And something you can reconsider at a future time without seeming weird.

          1. On the hunt*

            You’ll probably not see this, but I emailed her today and withdrew – saying that I wasn’t ready to leave my city, thanked her for being considered by someone of her caliber (because she is pretty impressive) and wished her the best.

            Thank you! Your comment definitely made it easier to send the email.

  114. Not a Real Accountant*

    Hello all–long time lurker, first time poster. :)

    I had an interview yesterday, that seems like it went really well–I’m trying not to get my hopes up too high (the job posting looked great, then the extra details provided during the interview made it even more great! Eeeeee!) while sitting on the urge to respond to her email (“thanks for your updated references, good to meet you too, HR will contact you soon regarding the status, enjoy your weekend”) and thought I’d redirect that energy into a positive comment here!

  115. Wing Leader*

    What do I do about being hangry until lunch time?

    I eat a big breakfast every morning, like I did today. Now, it’s a little after 11AM and I’m starving. I want lunch so bad and am having a hard time concentrating on my work. I don’t get a lunch break until 1PM.

    I know the obvious answer is bring a snack, but I’m not allowed to snack at my desk. I’m also not allowed to leave my desk for long periods. I can go to the bathroom if I need to but that’s it. If I brought in a snack or a little meal, the only thing I could do is go eat it in the kitchen. Which I’m not allowed to do until lunchtime.

    I go through this every day. It’s affecting my work productivity because I want something to eat so bad and I can’t focus. And, in case you’re wondering, I’m not diabetic or anything. However, I am one of those people that’s blood sugar drops super low if I don’t eat for a while, so I get very nauseous and dizzy.

    1. Me*

      My first question would be what are you eating for breakfast? Just because it’s a lot of food doesn’t mean it’s necessarily slow-digesting and high satiety.

      1. Not All*

        I solidly agree with this! Things that are considered traditional breakfast foods like cereal, yogurt, and most types of fruit will do NOTHING to keep me from feeling hungry. I definitely need things like hard-boiled eggs or leftover meat from the night before. Breakfast is far & away my highest protein/lowest carb/lowest sugar meal of the day.

        1. Me*

          Yup. Magic combo for most people is protein, fat and a slow digesting carb. “Breakfast” food tends to be none of those things.

            1. Aurion*

              Something with a low glycemic index that is digested more slowly and keeps your blood sugar levels more stable. Oats, for example, is a slow digesting carb.

            2. Jaid*

              Rice and beans are a slow digesting carb. Me, I get the multigrain bag from the Korean grocery (5 different rices, 5 different beans), soak a couple of cups of that for a couple of hours, then pop it in the Instant Pot using the porridge setting, six cups of water to two cups of the grain (milk would be better), dates, and ginger. It’s kinda mushy, but it’s congee.
              That will stick to your ribs.

              1. Arts Akimbo*

                OMG, this reminds me that one of the most satisfying breakfasts I ever used to eat was in Costa Rica, when every day I’d have gallo pinto, a beans and rice dish cooked on a griddle! Such great comfort food, and a long-lasting breakfast.

      3. Aphrodite*

        Yes, that is what I was going to ask.

        If you are not eating a high-protein breakfast then you are setting yourself up for this kind of thing. I now eat two farm eggs, one-half of one strip of WF bacon, a cup of plain Greek yogurt with some cut-up fruit, and a full glass of low-fat milk mixed in the blender with a couple scoops of TJ’s plain protein powder. I also have a single vegetable; a favorite is microwaved corn on the cob with no toppings. And, rarely, half a slice of un-buttered toast.

    3. Jamie*

      Sounds like it’s a medical issue and easily accommodated by letting you eat.

      If there is a non-crazy reason for not allowing you to eat at your desk taking a little break to grab a quick snack is a very easy accommodation for them to make.

      1. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

        Yea. Check with your doctor to see she/he is willing to assist you in getting a medical accommodation which would be protected by ADA.

        1. Miss Cheeks*

          Uhh, no. “Being hungry” is not a medical condition. It’s being hungry. This is exactly why people who seek legitimate ADA accommodations have a hard time being taken seriously.

          This is a scheduling issue (lunch at 1pm is late, OP has my sympathies), not a medical issue.

          1. valentine*

            An earlier lunch wouldn’t necessarily help. Wing Leader isn’t just hungry, but ill from not being allowed food. If I don’t eat every two to three hours during the day, I can have the same symptoms, as well as not being allowed to think properly and completely forgetting what I was doing.

            Unless you’re able to make or access a smoothie or other liquid meal, I would ask for the accommodation of snacking at the desk or 10 minutes in the kitchen. (I’d suggest eating a granola bar while walking to/from the bathroom, but that would give me heartburn.)

            The rules are preposterous and inhumane.

            1. Lilysparrow*

              Yes, they are just hungry.

              Getting nauseous and dizzy 2 hours after eating a full, balanced meal is not normal and you should certainly get medical advice – preferably from a licensed provider who knows the difference between the term “blood sugar drop” as a description of the normal digestive process that signals the brain to prompt hunger, as opposed to clinical hypoglycemia.

              If WL eats breakfast between 6:30-7:30 am and has to wait until 1pm to eat again, that is 5.5 – 7.5 hours. Being irritable, unable to concentrate, or even nauseous are completely normal hunger signals at that timeframe, unless they eat very calorie-dense, slow-digesting foods for breakfast.

              For a person with no health conditions, this level of hunger is annoying and distracting but not in any way dangerous or inhumane. It is not at all preposterous to expect a healthy adult to manage their food intake in such a way that they can adapt to a late lunch.

              1. sequined histories*

                None of us have done a medical exam of this person; it’s perfectly reasonable to suggest she consult a doctor and then seek an accommodation if there’s a medical issue.

      2. LilySparrow*

        Being hungry at 11am is a perfectly normal time to get hungry if you eat breakfast at home before an average commute to work. And feeling nauseous or hangry after being hungry for 2 hours is also normal.

        I don’t think having a fast metabolism qualifies for ADA.

        1. WellRed*

          Pretty sure you need a defined diagnosis that qualifies under the ADA. This is probably not the way to go.

          1. Lilysparrow*

            Right, can you imagine?
            “Doctor, I have this medical issue where I eat a meal, and then like 3.5 or 4 hours later, I’m hungry again! What is it called?”

            Doc: It’s called get TF out of my office.

            1. sequined histories*

              The fact is we have no way of knowing if she’s just very hungry or if she’s actually experiencing symptoms of an underlying issue; an actual doctor who responded in the fashion you suggest would be out of line. There are many physical symptoms (nausea, headache, various aches and pains, to name a few) that can be either the sign of an underlying, serious issue or ultimately innocuous. Dismissing symptoms and powering forward can sometimes result in medical crises that could have been averted.

    4. Not All*

      Are you allowed to have drinks? Could you get something like an Ensure protein shake that you can chug down mid-morning? Or even bring your own smoothie in an insulated mug from home?

      Otherwise, I’d consider getting a doctor’s letter noting that you must eat every X hours. I’ve had doctors in the past who would happily write up something like this without something like diabetes. (I’m also one of those people who MUST eat every couple hours…have been since I was a kid.)

      1. littlelizard*

        Seconding the protein shakes! I am also a person who needs to keep satiety up or else there’s nausea and other problems, and I’ve had days when I just drink protein drinks all day at work and feel completely fine. (Obviously you don’t need to jump to that extreme though).

      2. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

        If you’re someone who can digest milk, a glass of milk can be a good, quick snack too. I’ve started taking a pint of milk in a canning jar as a snack since my office went nut free due to someone’s allergy. I just put it in an insulated lunchbox with a cold pack. That might be less prep work than a smoothie or protein shake.

        I’m surprised that you don’t also get a short break of some kind – when I was hourly I seem to recall getting two paid 15 minute breaks a day, but that may vary by state. (I’m now salaried and in a job where I can just get up when I want to unless I’m in a meeting.)

    5. Ali A*

      Chug water. I aim to drink 40+ oz of water by lunch time each day and it’s definitely helped my pre-lunch and late-night cravings.

    6. Mediamaven*

      I get the same way – I swear I eat most of my days calories before noon. Why won’t they let you eat a snack? That’s ridiculous. No one does good work if they are hungry. Tell them you are hypoglycemic and need periodic snacks so your blood sugar doesn’t drop.

    7. LilySparrow*

      In addition to eating more calories and slow-digesting food at breakfast, can you time breakfast later? For example, could you bring something like a breakfast burrito on your commute?

      Or could you eat half a breakfast at home, and half in the breakroom immediately before starting your shift?

    8. The Other Dawn*

      I agree with others to go heavy on the protein if you can. If you’re eating a bagel for breakfast, add some hard-boiled eggs or maybe ham and cheese to it. The bagel by itself, while immediately very filling, will make your blood sugar crash hours later. I’ve learned I need to pair protein with most carbs I eat (breads, crackers, etc.).

      Also, buy some high quality protein bars that are lower in sugar (I like Quest) and cut them into pieces. When you get up from your desk, pop a piece in your mouth. It’s a small enough piece that you could finish it by the time you’re back from the printer or arrive at the bathroom. That could help.

    9. Earthwalker*

      Perhaps carry a jar of something milk-based and not too sugary? Cottage cheese blended with milk and a banana or some such thing can be pretty heavy on calories but discrete to drink.

      1. Arts Akimbo*

        Strong tea with full-fat milk is so satiating to me it’s practically a meal replacement (but don’t actually use it as a meal replacement)! It gets me through any hunger issues. If you’re allowed to drink at your desk, maybe carry some in a thermos?

  116. Everdene*

    Exciting times round these parts. Oak had a couple of promising interviews/meetings this week for jobs in BigCity and I found out Wednesday I have an internal interview in BigCity for a promotion on Monday!!!

    My organisation want to increase diversity so will be spending the weekend creating a paper on how to do that. And painting my nails to look super professional.

  117. Beaded Librarian*

    So I need some resume advice. I’m looking at applying to some grad schools to get my masters and one of them requires you to submit a resume. So I’m working on updating my resume for that an I’m not my sure how to put in some of my accomplishments. I have worked on several large projects in my library where I was not the main driver of the project but had an important if not large role in it.
    For instance we did our first inventory in 20 years about 2 years ago and while all senior level staff helped with scanning the books for inventory I’m the cataloger so I handled all the books that flagged as a problem to make sure any changes needed were done in the system and new spine labels were applied as needed. How would I put this in my resume?

  118. Nothingtodo*

    How long is reasonable to stay at a new job with nothing to do before quitting? I have been at my new job for 6 weeks. I’m bored to tears and have nothing to do. My coworker gets all the work assigned to her and I just sit here with nothing to do. I’ve asked my boss, team member, and other coworkers for work but no body has anything for me. Due to my position I can’t create new projects for myself. The two projects I have been given both got put on hold due to the authority of higher ups. How long is okay to stay before I get a new job?

    1. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

      If you don’t have any other short-term jobs on your resume, you can quit as soon as you have a new job lined up. You can just say that the job wasn’t what it was billed to be.

    2. Psyche*

      Have you talked to your boss about whether they are in a particularly slow period right now but expect to get more work soon? That could help you gauge whether it is worth waiting or not.

  119. Nk29*

    Any ideas/strategies for commutating in meetings? I’m getting invited to higher level meetings, but quite often I need a “translator” to explain to the audience what I mean. Help!

    1. The Other Dawn*

      I’m not what your industry or job is, but what has helped me is to pretend I’m training someone and imagine they’ve never heard the concepts I’m talking about. For example, when I first started my current job, I had to present at a board meeting, which included a new member from outside of my industry. I made sure to avoid acronyms and say the whole phrase, then mention the acronym afterwards. If I’m presenting a report, I give a brief explanation of what the report is and why we use it. Things like that.

    2. Lilysparrow*

      What exactly does the translator translate?

      Is there an actual language barrier, where you are presenting in a language that is not native to you? Or in a different regional version of the language? You can be completely fluent in a language and still use syntax or grammar that is too formal or too much like your native language, that makes it hard for people to follow you in everyday conversation. I recently worked on editing a book by a native German speaker who used English quite correctly and had a very high-level intellectual vocabulary. But he always put the subjects at the end of his sentences, and the thesis statements at the end of his paragraphs – it was terribly hard for a US English reader to understand, because everything sounded upside-down and backwards!

      Even native English speakers from different parts of the world use different sentence structure and terminology. You could take classes in “conversational language skills” in order to speak more idiomatically, or see if you can find training in “localisation” of the regional differences. You can do this informally by training your ear – listen to a lot of local radio or TV programs, or look for opportunities to have group conversation with local coworkers, and really think about how people would say the same thing at home, to see how it’s different.

      If you are using technical terms or jargon related to your specialty that the higher-level people aren’t familiar with, then reframe those concepts in your mind so that you can explain it in ordinary language.

      Do you have a very different thought process from the people you’re presenting to? Some people think in lateral ways, where related ideas branch off each other like a tree, or like a classic “mind map” of bubbles or concentric circles. Other people think very linearly, like an outline or a timeline, where everything must have a direct cause-and-effect order. Different thought processes work well in different roles, and it’s very common for a business’ leadership to think in a different way than specialists do.

      Most people can learn to communicate across these differences, in fact that’s what great natural communicators do all the time without thinking about it. But it is a skill you can learn. Does the “translator” reframe your information in a different order? Or do the higher-ups respond better to certain types of charts or lists?

      The way the question is worded makes me wonder if perhaps you’re having trouble calibrating what level of detail to include. “Communicating in meetings” is a huge concept with a lot of different aspects and a lot of different solutions. If you are leaving out important details, people won’t be able to follow what you mean.

      This would show up in the audience asking for more information on a lot of points before they address the substance of your contribution. On the other hand, if you usually hear your “translator” summarizing what you said in a much shorter way, the problem could be too much detail or going off on tangents that aren’t relevant.

      If you suspect thought process or detail calibration might be part of the problem, see if you can sit down with one or another of the people who usually “translate” for you, and ask them for input on how you could be clearer and more effective. If they are good communicators, they can probably see what’s wrong and explain it very well!

  120. Psyche*

    I am the same way. One thing I found that helps is to make sure I don’t eat anything sugary for breakfast. Actually, for me not eating carbs at breakfast works best so I stick to a cheese omelette. If that doesn’t help, can you sneak a candy bar or energy bar into the bathroom with you? Not ideal but better than getting dizzy.

  121. Probably Taking This Too Seriously*

    Help? I applied for a job and a recruiter hired by the company (he had a company email address but said he was independent) reached out for an initial phone screen yesterday. Everything was going great about the position matching up with my experience, but then we got to desired comp. I had heard this company paid well, so I named a figure that I THOUGHT was at the top of the range. He said what the range is then, and it turns out I majorly low-balled by maybe 50%. He did schedule a follow-up interview for next week but now I wonder if my low-balling makes me a less attractive candidate?

    1. Dr. Anonymous*

      Don’t worry about it, because there’s no point in worrying. Interview your very best, and then when it’s offer time, say, “Now that I know more about the position, I would be interested in $$$”.

  122. Moggulo*

    Would it be wise to ask my supervisor if I can start wearing earphones when I’ve been only here for a month?

    I do a lot of detailed data entry and sometimes it’s hard to focus when the office gets loud or people next to my desk can’t stop chattering. People talk loudly or about uncomfortable topics so it’s hard to block them out. We have small dividers but can easily see each other when we turn around.

    I was thinking of approaching it as “it’s hard to focus when hearing people talk but music helps me block voices out and improves my concrentration. So can I please wear earphones for just one ear?” Note that no one wears headphones/earphones in my department but only me and my manager have the same detailed data entry. While everyone else handles different type of work.

  123. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

    Hello from Still Not the Hellmouth! It has been a week of entitled creeps, crybabies, an unauthorized occupant having a temper tantrum in the office that was so bad we almost had to have them escorted out, the manager deciding to Teach Us a Lesson because he assumed that we failed to follow procedure for when a resident moves out and turns in keys (this was not, in fact, a thing that had happened, the residents in question simply did not turn in their keys) and thus decided to withhold commissions until our next pay period (we were supposed to get them today, I am VERY UNHAPPY ABOUT THIS DEVELOPMENT), and I may wind up holding down the office completely alone today, but in spite of that I am still kind of walking on air.

    For those who have been following along and may not have seen last Friday’s late in the day update: I GOT THE STATE JOB! They called me late last Friday afternoon to let me know that I am their pick and they are looking forward to working with me. Now I just have to wait out the reference checks (according to my references, they started getting calls this morning), the background check, and then I will receive my Conditional Offer of Employment/drug test/schedule my start date. My friend in the department thinks it will be about two-ish weeks before we get to the COE, my friend in HR says it better not take that long and she’s hoping to get the paperwork on me next week so I can be called in. Obviously I am hoping for sooner rather than later, but either way: WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! I’ve been doing the Snoopy Dance a lot since last Friday, guys.

    I’m trying to figure out when I will give notice—I had originally planned to give the longest notice possible because (anger over the yucky paternalistic tone of the delaying of my commission AND the actual delaying of my commission aside) I like my boss and really appreciate how non-Hellmouthy and (relatively) normal this place has been. However, this morning a maintenance guy gave his two weeks and they walked him out and immediately changed the keys. Now, that’s not what happened when the other leasing consultant gave notice, but… I think I had probably better dig a little and find out if there was a reason why the maintenance guy was immediately booted before I give anything beyond a standard notice.

    Anyway. In celebration of my most jubilant news, I offer up any property management stories you may want to hear, as soon I will be free of the industry FOREVER! (And also, if I am here alone all day and it stays slow, I may actually have time to type them up.) Huzzah! Happy Friday!

    2. Fibchopkin*

      OMG!!! I had a HUGE committee retreat last week and missed the update! I’m so happy for you! If anyone deserves job nirvana – it’s definitely you!

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        Gracias, gracias! Hopefully your shady circus will straighten up soon (and until it does, don’t let the sock puppet accounts get you down. ;) )

    5. Lives in a Shoe*

      I want to hear them all. I want you to write a book.
      And YAY!!! I’m so happy for you. Best wishes for the start to a new employment life.

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        Heh, I probably have enough material for a few tomes at this point! Even the nice property management jobs are at least a little cuckoo. :)

        1. tangerineRose*

          You might want to work on a list of stories you can tell, to make it easier to remember them all later.

    7. Bilateralrope*

      Congrats.

      One question: why do they think that holding onto money that they owe you for a presumably legal length of time will do anything useful ?

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        He assumed we “girls” had failed to follow his internal process and that by giving us “real world consequences” we would never forget his internal process again. It was kind of ickily paternalistic. Even if we HAD missed a step (we 100% didn’t), this would still have really upset me because move out paperwork has nothing to do with the commissions I earned leasing and moving people IN to apartments.

        2. Bilateralrope*

          I’d be tempted to let him hear that it’s not much of a ‘punishment’ because I wasn’t planning to use the money before {date a few days after the latest day he can legally delay paying me}. Just to see if that pokes him into delaying it further and letting me write a “my pay was intentionally and illegally delayed ” complaint to someone else in the company. Let him face some real world consequences.

          Probably a bad idea. But tempting.

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        Thank you! I actually just see the party popper emoji everywhere I look right now. So much happiness!

    9. Sarah*

      Congratulations. As someone who has eagerly followed along, I’m really happy for you.

      Also, I want to hear ALL the property management stories. Just start typing!

    11. Nessun*

      That’s wonderful news!! You certainly deserve it – I hope you have some excellent celebrations planned!!

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        I’m saving the official celebratory festivities for when I have my final offer and my start date is set, but there have been many Dance Parties of One held since I got the news!

    13. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!

      Property management must be a sucky job. I recently had a terrible encounter with my old apartment management, long story short they told me I didn’t owe anything when I called (multiple times! and visited in person!) yet sent a bill to collections that they never bothered trying to mail to me. I tried to stay polite but I can imagine how awfully a lot of people must react in that situation.

      I want to hear any stories you feel like telling!

      1. pcake*

        I actually almost had that same thing happen. One rent check didn’t clear for months. I talked to our onsite manager who contacted the management company repeatedly, asking what happened. They kept saying we didn’t owe anything and that the check had cleared, but our bank said otherwise.

        The only reason we didn’t get sent to collection months later – and it was about to happen – is that the onside manager liked us and gave us a heads-up. We immediately put a stop payment on the several-month-old rent check and paid them with a new one. And guess what – a few days later, they deposited both checks. Thank goodness for stop payments!

        Btw, I’m 99.99% sure that the old check was deposited through incompetence, not because they were trying to double charge us. But I’m not sure how much better that really is…

        1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

          Yeah, that sounds like terrible/sloppy bookkeeping and processing. I’ve seen it happen at properties where I’ve been a leasing consultant, and it was usually because the assistant accidentally misplaced the check or it fell behind a desk or something. The worst! That’s part of why I always pay through my resident portal.

        2. Bilateralrope*

          It intrigues me how long some countries are holding onto paper cheques when electronic transfers are better for everyone involved. This includes banks who make electronic transfers more expensive that cheques for their customers.

          Meanwhile it’s been about 20 years since I got an adult chequing account. I’ve never had a chequebook. My bank assumed I wouldn’t want one and they were right.

          1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

            You know, it’s interesting–on the property management side, we actually WANT everyone doing electronic transfers. It’s cleaner, secure, and eliminates arguments about whether someone paid late or not. But a large number of residents insist on paying only by check or (the bane of my existence when I was an assistant manager and in charge of running the money) multiple money orders.

            1. Bilateralrope*

              Multiple money orders ?
              Is there any explanation for that other than them wanting to annoy you ?

              As for cheques, I know there is a vocal group of people here who, when the banks started talking about ending cheques a few years ago, complained enough to get those plans canceled. I’m guessing the banks will try again when they die.

              1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

                You know, I was never really sure. I wondered if maybe there was a cap on how much some places could put on a money order, but then I had some people (particularly at the Hellmouth) who seemed to have ALL of their money put into money orders of various amounts that they used like cash. They would sometimes overpay because they didn’t have the exact amount. I also wondered if some of them maybe didn’t have bank accounts. And then there were a few very sketchy residents at the Hellmouth that we were pretty sure were drug dealers–I would usually get 6-10 money orders from them for each rental payment.

      2. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        It is very terrible. The people working in it fall largely into two camps: 1) Nice people who want to run things well and take a lot of abuse while trying to do so, 2) Rotten jerks. Man, it stinks that you never even got a letter! You’re generally supposed to get a final account statement after move out with a detailed listing of anything you owe or are owed.

        Let’s see, the unauthorized resident story this week was pretty amazing. This sour faced dude and his wife came in to the office while it was just me and the assistant manager (who was tied up in a conference call), I was finishing up with a tour at my desk, and another person was ahead of them and waiting patiently for their turn. I waved to them when they came in and told them that the gentleman on the couch was ahead of them, but that either the assistant manager or myself would be with them in just a few minutes. As soon as my tour left the dude tried to bum rush my desk and cut off the guy who had been waiting, and I had to gently say “Oh, this gentleman was actually here first, but either myself or my assistant manager will be able to help you in just a minute. While I was helping the first guy, the assistant manager finally freed up, went to help the sour faced guy, and was subjected to a rant about the hot tub and also the positioning of the pool chairs that began with “I PAY GOOD MONEY TO LIVE HERE, AND AS A RESIDENT I EXPECT…” and went on for about ten minutes.

        I was still finishing up with the first resident when Sour Face wrapped up, waited until the assistant manager went back to her office, and then VERY AGGRESSIVELY interrupted us because he “just wanted to let [me] know” that he had spoken to the assistant manager and he “felt confident she would actually do something” and “treat the tenant right.” It was very strange. Even stranger was when he came back in about an hour later and demanded that I go to the clubhouse with him to help him with the TV. You have to have a fob to access the clubhouse, but I found out that he had been making some poor resident who did not know him get up from her laptop (she’s a law student and is forever studying and working on papers in there) and keep letting him in. Then I found that he had somehow gotten a hold of a remote that residents are not supposed to have (there is a wall controller for the TV, the remote he had would in no way do anything but mess up settings) and practically had to wrestle it away from while explaining as kindly as I could that there was no way to pull up Netflix and I could not “put on the documentary about the guy in the air” for him.

        So after that intense exchange, I went back to the office and the assistant manager and I went and looked up the apartment number he had given us, and that apartment was NOT leased to him. We went to clubhouse to talk to him/have him leave, but he was already gone, and we figured we would probably never see him again… until he walked in the next day to use the fancy coffee machine. The assistant manager went to pull him aside and speak with him (we were trying to determine if he was living in the apartment or just visiting) and the guy (who, it turns out, is the dad of the leaseholder) went ABSOLUTELY SPARE. He started screaming and yelling and calling the assistant manager (an incredibly sweet and polite person) “VICIOUS,” yelled that I had turned her against him, and when the manager came out to see what on earth was happening and calm things down he started screaming at the manager, demanding copies of all of our business cards, numbers for corporate, the whole shebang. It was only after the courtesy officer was mentioned that he finally stopped yelling and left the office, vowing that we would rue the day and that he would make sure everyone knew what a terrible apartment community we were.

        So. If you aren’t a resident, you have to be WITH a resident in all of the amenity areas. But if that guy just hadn’t been… uh, I guess himself? and also fussing and fuming about how he lived here and paid good money to do so… we probably never would have noticed him using the amenities or looked into whether he was supposed to be here and he would have had a lovely few days at the pool and in the clubhouse.

    14. Veryanon*

      That’s so AWESOME! I missed last week’s update, so thank you for keeping us all posted! As for notice, I would advise you to wait until you know that everything has cleared, and then just give them the standard 2 weeks.
      Best of luck in the new job!

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        Yep, two weeks is what I’m settling on. The state rolls pretty slowly, so a longer one might have been possible and I kind of wanted to give my boss plenty of time to find a quality replacement… but I don’t think I want to risk being pushed out early.

    17. Gaming Teapot*

      Congratulations! Hope you’ll enjoy the new job!
      If you already know for sure that you will take the state job offer (it sounds like you do) and you have the finances to spare, why not give notice now? I mean, either you’ll be gone in two/three weeks or you’ll get a bit of unexpected vacation to help you detox from real estate before starting your new job.

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        Thanks! Well, I don’t really want to risk it since it could easily be a month/month and a half until my start date (the state rolls VERY slowly), and while it’s HIGHLY unlikely it’s still possible that the position could fall through/their final offer could be too low for me to accept/etc. I’d rather play it safe. This position has actually been a great place to detox from the Hellmouth–I’m actually grateful that I landed here for a bit first, I think that I will probably do a lot better in my new position than if I had just leaped straight from the horror show.

    18. Interviewer*

      I would wait to give notice until that commission is in your account. Sounds like you might have plenty of time with all the processing and waiting, but just hang tight. You earned it, but they may decide not to pay it because you gave notice. I’ve seen it all, unfortunately.

      But meanwhile: I’m so happy for you! Good luck!

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        Thank you! Yeah, I think I will wait. I don’t think my boss would fail to pay out my commissions (he has two small children and seems to apply his parenting techniques to employee management, delaying our commissions was supposed to make us “think about procedure and make sure we follow it properly”), but I just really don’t want to risk being sent off as soon as I give notice and wind up kicking around the house for 3-4 weeks.

        1. Arts Akimbo*

          So he’s giving you a commissions time-out. I guess making you move your desks to the corner was too disruptive?

    19. Forrest Rhodes*

      Waytago! Am performing my personal dance of joy on your behalf as we speak, to be followed immediately by ice cream!

    20. Not a Real Accountant*

      Congrats so much! I’ve followed along on your postings, and I don’t know, I’m just so happy that you’re happy. :D

      I want to hear ALL the property management stories–I thought I heard some crazy stories at my company, but the stories I’ve already from you definitely take the cake (not that that’s a cake we want…). You’re a great storyteller too.

    25. SAHM*

      Woot wooooot!!! Go Hellmouth!!! So happy for you! I really do hope you have time to sit down and write a book about your (mis)adventures soon though! You’re one of the major reasons I check in on fridays. Internet hugs on the job front though!!

    28. WoodswomanWrites*

      I was traveling and missed your post last week and I know I’m chiming in late here on the West Coast. Yippie, this is such fantastic news. I’m joining your happy dance!

  124. No name this time around*

    I’m attending a manuscript boot camp in a few months to workshop my novel. Four other writers are attending, and we’ve all had the opportunity to read each other’s books. I’m really excited about this; the workshop is being taught by one of my favorite authors, and most of the other attendees seem really talented as well. I’m looking forward to meeting them.

    But there’s one thing that’s worrying me. One participant’s book, a memoir, is just . . . not good at all. The subject matter is potentially interesting–it involves a cause that’s clearly close to their heart–but they tell rather than show, and they make a lot of grammar, spelling, and basic sentence construction errors. The book isn’t well-written at all.

    Their tone is also preachy and sanctimonious, as well as oblivious to the privilege associated with doing months of charitable work and still having a career and a home to return to afterward. (They repeatedly castigate anyone who read about the cause in the news and didn’t “do something.” During the time period in question, I was a barista and my “room” was a literal closet in a house, which I rented for $150/month. So no, I wasn’t in a position to buy a bunch of supplies and hop a plane to go save the world.) And they’re extremely critical of other volunteers and staff who didn’t do as much as they felt they did. It’s really unpleasant to read.

    They did some really important work toward their cause of choice, and I respect that a lot, but other than that I’m struggling to find much to like about them or their book.

    We’re expected to share feedback with the other authors, and I honestly have no idea what I’m going to say to this person. Have any of you been in a similar spot before? Do you have any advice?

    1. annony*

      I have never been to a manuscript boot camp and I am not a creative writer. However, when a friend or colleague asks for feedback on a scientific manuscript I try to focus on one major thing that needs fixing rather than making a big list which is somewhat demoralizing. So if the structure is a mess, I tend to focus solely on that and not really content. “These are really cool experiments! However I did find it a bit hard to follow as a whole. Have you considered organizing it (describe alternate organization) rather than (what they did). That way A flows better to B.” In your case you could tell them that the cause is really interesting and you respect the important work they did towards furthering that cause. However, it would be far more immersive for the reader if they try to show rather than tell (describe a specific example).

    2. Oh No She Di'int*

      I have been in several, several different writing circles of the type you describe. Most often these were based around short stories rather than novels. But I think similar issues apply.

      Yes, sometimes you get an atrocious piece of writing. But there are ways to give feedback.

      1. Focus on the writing, not the subject matter. I detected a hint of defensiveness in your letter, like you felt personally attacked by this writer. I think you need to let that go. Imagine what you would have told the person if you HAD flown off to wherever; chances are the writing would still be bad. Focus on those problems that aren’t related to your personal relationship to the subject matter.

      2. You cannot “fix” this person, don’t try. Don’t focus on the fact that this person is critical, privileged, etc. A writing workshop is not where these issues are going to get addressed in any useful way. Again, focus on what does or does not work about the writing.

      3. Be prepared for your criticism to bounce off this person. My experience is that such writers are nearly impossible to persuade. I know just the type you’re talking about! Depending on how the workshops are structured, I would simply give my feedback and when they inevitably argue that you are the one getting it all wrong, say “Ok” and let it rest. Now if someone else pipes up with the same thoughts, you might also jump in. But I would not count on changing any minds in this scenario.

      1. No name this time around*

        Thanks! This is really helpful. I tend to frequent places both online and IRL where questions of privilege get talked about a lot, and it’s honestly kind of a relief to hear that I both can and should remove that lens for this situation. And yep, you called that defensiveness piece exactly right. Thank you for that. I think it will help a lot just to be self-aware.

        I’ll focus on the mechanics and only the mechanics. There’s plenty to focus on there!

        A further question: I did a track-changes edit on each manuscript. (We were asked to do this. We’ll put the files on DropBox for each other at the beginning of the workshop and then we’ll share our verbal feedback in the sessions. I’ve done a lot of editing and a lot of collaborative writing, so this felt pretty comfortable to me.)

        For one, I made only minimal changes because the book was really well-written–I flagged a few typos, asked some minor continuity questions, and questioned a couple of formatting choices. For two others, I corrected typos and made a note about some capitalization and punctuation choices, asking whether these choices were stylistic or inadvertent.

        For all three, I feel confident that I left them in improved condition and that they’re basically presentable.

        For the final book, the one I described above, I corrected typos and misspellings and egregious grammar stuff, but let slide anything that would have required essentially a rewrite of the sentence or paragraph. So, despite a lot of editing, it’s still a mess.

        I can say to the first three, with a straight face, “Eh, I did a little cleanup, but this mostly looks great.” What do I say to the remaining one? “There’s red ink all over this thing and I didn’t even get to the big stuff?” (Obviously not really!)

        1. NotAPirate*

          We always called it the crap sandwich in college writing courses. Say something you liked, something critical, something good. Start and end good. All positive feedback isn’t always useful either.

          So for this one, maybe something about what a unique perspective on crisis the book was, I found a lot of typos that I’ve marked blah blah blah, I think with a good proof reader the grammar can easily be fixed and it will be readable. 2nd complimentary, go for something about how the timeline of events is nicely spaced out in the book and how you appreciate there not being weird chunks of time missing that some authors do.

          Also maybe suggest an editor program. I know I used editMinion a lot for catching my typos. I think when you read your own work too much it becomes easy to miss them.

        2. Oh No She Di'int*

          I mean, I think you can say what is pretty much true: I think there are a lot of grammar and spelling problems that deeply distract from the reading experience, and that is going to hamper any effort to get this into readers’ hands. That is both true and useful feedback.

          Also, to be clear, I’m not saying that you can’t bring up bigger writing issues, like the whole “show, don’t tell” feedback. I think that’s fair game. But that is presumably also feedback you’d give to this person even if you stood with them 100% on whatever this big issue is. In other words, you’re trying to help them improve the writing of the story they’re telling, not taking issue with their mindset.

        3. LawBee*

          Your job isn’t to make the book publisher-ready, right? And you’re not the only person who is going to be editing with tracked changes, right? You’ve done enough, and you did the same level of work that you did on the other three, honestly. I think you’re stuck because you know something that they writer doesn’t (her book is bad) but there’s only so far a workshop can take her – and that distance is determined by her willingness and ability to accept constructive feedback.
          There are times when a simple “I flagged some grammar and spelling errors, here you go!” is sufficient.

    3. SwirlPencil*

      I’d stick with saying you think the subject matter is interesting and has potential, but the telling rather than showing makes it less engaging and the grammar/spelling/sentence construction errors make it hard to read. They can’t really argue with those since they are facts, and I think saying one positive thing is enough. (You don’t need to gush over the book if it’s not worthy of gushing.) I wouldn’t mention the tone or privilege stuff, because I have a feeling they’d be offended and argue with you.

      I’ve given detailed feedback to both wonderful and horrible writers before. The wonderful ones are grateful and want to discuss it. The horrible ones (the ones that don’t even have basic grammar and spelling down) are usually argumentative and offended by anything that isn’t praise, so it’s not worth it to invest much in helping them.

    4. halfwolf*

      i majored in writing in college, and i LIVE for the workshop. that being said, i absolutely had classes with people whose writing i did not like At All. because it wasn’t (in my opinion, important caveat) good, or interesting, or well-crafted, etc. the thing to keep in mind with those pieces is that your role as a member of the workshop is to make the piece the most successful version of itself that it can possibly be. when you re-center your perspective in that way, it’s a lot easier to say to yourself “okay, i would never ever read this if i didn’t have to, but i can nevertheless see where they are trying to go with it, and the ways that they can change the piece to get there more effectively.” additionally, in terms of them getting defensive: i don’t know if you’ve done a lot of in-person workshops, but all of the ones i’ve done have the important rule that the writer being discussed isn’t allowed to respond during the discussion (because your writing must stand on its own, without you there to explain it, to be successful). i very much hope that this rule is in place for everyone – it’s immensely helpful both for yourself (in terms of letting go of ego) and others (not having to argue your own critique with a writer).

      1. Oh No She Di'int*

        Most of my writing workshop experience has the silence rule that you mention. I agree wholeheartedly agree with your support of it. It’s so common in fact that I am always surprised to hear about a workshop in which the writer IS allowed to speak. Such setups tend to be SO much less effective and SO easily derailed and/or combative that it makes me wonder why any facilitator would intentionally put that sort of discussion in place.

        1. halfwolf*

          exactly! the most i’ve been able to do in workshops is ask a question if (and only if) i genuinely didn’t understand what someone was saying or which passage they were referring to, and maybe – MAYBE – make a short statement at the end. it really only works if the writer isn’t able to speak.

    5. OtterB*

      One piece of writer’s workshop / beta reader advice I have read is to phrase things so that they are about your reaction, not a suggested fix. So, “I was confused when you said X because I wasn’t sure what order things happened in,” NOT “You should rearrange this in a different order.” It sounds like it’s harder with this writer, because some of the things you want to criticize will inevitably sound like personal criticisms.

      Do you have the option to ask the workshop leader privately for advice on handling this?

    6. Fact & Fiction*

      Ugh…I am a published author who used to donate manuscript critiques to charitable auctions from time to time. I would give thoughtful but honest critiques in as positive a manner as possible and then get rant-filled responses back from people who were clearly not ready to have others critique their writing. Other times I would offer to do similar for the manuscripts of online writing acquaintances who I truly wanted to help but they were just…not only not good, but terrible. But it would make me feel awful when I couldn’t really find anything nice to say amid the critical feedback and that would stress me out so much.

      Both situations got to be too much for my mental health, so I really don’t do that these days. I would be fine acting as a crit partner for a fellow published author who writes publishable material and is used to dealing with professional editing and critiques, but…I just can’t handle people who aren’t ready for that.

      All that to say I feel for you! I think others in this thread have given you very helpful advice. I think it’s better to focus on a few pieces of big-ticket items rather than a line-by-line edit or a huge list that could be overwhelming. Many of us writers learn best in pieces and stages, at any rate. So it might help to pick the few things you think they could either improve the most easily with work or that would be the most important for moving them to the next level, writing-wise.

      Good luck!

      1. Fact & Fiction*

        I meant to say that by no means were all the manuscripts I critiqued like that. I read a lot of great material, and it was always exciting to see some of the writers whose work I particularly enjoyed later published, whether with that or another project. It’s just that the other experiences tended to overshadow those, and for me it was healthier to avoid those situations.

        1. No name this time around*

          I particularly appreciate your perspective here. You sound like a mensch! I’m glad there are people out there like you who are willing and eager to help would-be writers improve and get their work out into the world.

          The novel I’m bringing to the workshop is my first (unless you count a very rough draft of one I did for NaNoWriMo a few years back), and I have no idea whether the other attendees will love it, hate it, or tell me to go back to the corporate world where clean, boring prose is valued. I want them to be kind and honest and I hope to be kind and honest in return–in this case, it seems, with the emphasis more on “kind” than “honest.”

          I think I may also be projecting some of my own anxieties onto my approach to critiquing or not critiquing other people’s work. There’s this terrifying element of “what if my novel sucks?” combined with an equally terrifying element of “what if my novel sucks and no one tells me my novel sucks and I keep Dunning-Kreugering forward obliviously?”

    7. No name this time around*

      Thanks so much to all of you! Your feedback has been super helpful.

      I’ve done writing workshops, but not since college, which was a reaaaaaally long time ago. In the interim I’ve done a lot of writing in the corporate setting, where clean prose is considered important. I’ve also taken part in some writing groups, where there’s been a lot of back-and-forth, some of it contentious.

      It’s a great relief to remind myself that a) I’m not responsible for the condition of anyone else’s manuscript; b) it’s possible that we may not be able to respond to feedback at all (I really hope this is the case); and c) I can, in good conscience, keep most of my thoughts to myself and offer only limited feedback.

  125. AnxiousLady*

    I’ve been going back and forth today about giving my notice. I don’t have anything lined up, but this job has severely impacted my mental and physical health (I cry multiple times a week, sometimes at work, my anxiety has spiked and I’ve had digestive issues the past 6 months that have kept me home from work) and it looks like I’ll be moving out of state soon for my partner’s job. (Unconfirmed but very likely) I know it’s not good to go back and forth about things like this, but this job has honestly made me that crazy. I know I’m having problems thinking about this straight and I just feel like getting out now is the only thing I can do to protect myself and get on the right path.

    I don’t have much money saved up, but I do have access to retirement funds and I wouldn’t mind hustling part-time until we move. My friends and family think I should hold out until I saved more or my partner’s move is confirmed, but they say it’s ultimately my choice. My mom said if all else bottoms out, I can move back home, but that would feel like a failure to me and obviously create issues with my partner. It sucks feeling so trapped, and I want to be rational, but this job is impacting my sense of reality and ability to even be rational.

    Does anyone have any advice? Thanks in advance!

    1. Me*

      I have been there, am there currently really, with a job I can’t really leave for financial reasons and yet its so awful I was having panic attacks.

      Medication and therapy have made it 1000 times better for me.

      If you haven’t seen a mental health specialist yet, that’s important. If for nothing else to help you figure out what you can and cannot do.

      Hang in there and best of luck.

    2. Smedley*

      I am in the same situation (see my post below)! Personally I would say that if your partner and family are supportive, you should give notice. You are not a failure and you are not alone. Many very successful people lose or quit jobs, so there must be a way to go on from there – we just have to find it! All my best to you – I know this is hard but we will make it.

    3. Bunny Girl*

      I was in this same situation, and I ended up quitting and just going to a part time job. I knew I was going to be moving soon, and my job was draining the life out of me so I ended up quitting and just finding a part time job that I ended up really liking. Plus it was really nice to have all that extra time to move when the time did come. And honestly that was what I told people when I moved from a part time to a full time job. I just said I had quit to focus on moving and no one blinked.

    4. myug*

      >My mom said if all else bottoms out, I can move back home, but that would feel like a failure to me and obviously create issues with my partner.

      Absolutely not a failure. You have a support network and a safety net. Do you think people who accept a job at their parent’s companies or accept money/mortgage- or rent-free dwellings from their parents are failures? No, they are using their resources to their advantage. I’d say quit – even if your partner’s job falls through, you cannot be working at this place any longer.

    5. Kathenus*

      There’s no right or wrong answer here, pros and cons to both approaches of staying or going. If it was me, and I was waffling on leaving without another job I’d wait until I was sure that was what I wanted to do. So I’d err on the side of staying until/unless I was sure that quitting was what I wanted to do at that point. But that’s just one opinion, yours is the one that matters here. Do you need the insurance coverage through your current job? That may be a factor to consider as well. Take care of yourself and hope you find the right path.

    6. NoLongerYoung*

      All I can say is, don’t touch the retirement funds. It’s not a savings account… and there are tax consequences. Worse, long term life consequences. I won’t go into detail, but in my first two jobs after college, I cashed out the retirement funds…and although “small” at the time, 40 years of growth would be making the difference now between being able to retire, and being stuck working years longer than my peers (other stuff happened too).

      Just… don’t. Please.

  126. House Tyrell*

    I’m pretty sure the project I’m working on is meant to make my job irrelevant and that I might be laid off. My boss stepped down this week from his role with my company, which is a subsidiary of a larger and well known company in our city and field. I’m the only employee who works solely for the subsidiary and everyone else who does work for us also works for the parent company (my cubicle is in the home office.) This subsidiary was really my former boss’ pet project and without him leading it, there has been talk of it’s future. Right now I’m working on a project to streamline the interactions with clients and I had thought earlier that this would get rid of the bulk of my job, but now I’m wondering if that’s kind of the point and my position is being eliminated. I don’t like the job all that much and was thinking of leaving maybe but now I’m worried I won’t really have much choice and will be laid off before I wanted to go!

    Any tips on inquiring about this with my new boss or should I leave it be in case they push me out even sooner? Also looking for advice on unemployment benefits. I’ve been laid off once before during a company restructuring but it was from one of my three part time jobs so it didn’t really impact my life all that much at the time. This is my only job now so I’m not sure how the lay off process works for full time employees.

  127. Llellayena*

    Alison, I’ve been reading the archives a bit lately and was wondering how you deal with letters that come in with very short response-need times? Like a letter that says, “I have to get a response back in two days! help!” I would think with the queue of questions you have, these would be difficult if not impossible to get to before they are “stale.” Is there a system for those?

    1. Nicotene*

      Honestly since Allison isn’t getting paid, I don’t think she’s obligated to respond promptly to people with short term needs – her interest is in running an interesting blog, after all, not providing free crisis services. BUT I will say that she does send private emails occasionally to people. I’m sure she’d like to do this for everyone who asks if she could. But (as a letter writer!) I’d ask us all not to be so unreasonable as to expect her to.

      1. Llellayena*

        Believe me, I’m not saying she should answer everything. But I see posted responses to things with short time needs and was curious if we actually see the responses within the time requested or if there’s a quick private response first or if it just doesn’t manage to get answered in time due to the long queue. Really just curious.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      It varies. A ton of my mail doesn’t get answered at all, just due to the volume of it. But sometimes with really time-sensitive questions, I’m able to send a quick response back (and occasionally will also do a longer one for publication later). Other times I end up publishing it quickly. Other times I end up publishing after it will be useful to the person, but figure it will still be useful to other people.

      (But my timeline for publishing — as a separate thing from emailing them back — isn’t based on when the person needs a response by, since that’s just not how advice columns work. Their primary audience isn’t the letter writer; it’s the readership as a whole.)

  128. Smedley*

    Please help! I know you aren’t supposed to quit until you find another job, but in the last few months, my job that was stressful has become soul-destroying and health-affecting. Our department head seems to have a psychological problem that includes mood swings and severe memory loss and my supervisor is afraid for her job so she can’t help me. At every second of the day I am afraid that I have done something wrong or stepped out of line in some new way, and I barely have time to breathe let alone make appointments to take time off for healthcare, etc. and at the end of the day I am too demoralized and exhausted to look for another job. I really feel like I am not going to survive if I stay there any longer I am just wondering what you say when looking for a new job if you quit your old one – or worse, if you are fired which I feel like I could be at any moment. Also if you have any words of hope or encouragement, they would really be appreciated right now. I feel extremely hopeless. Thanks!

    1. LawBee*

      Quit. If you can afford it, quit. Don’t stay in a place that is detrimental to your mental health if you don’t absolutely have to.

      I hereby give you permission to GTFO of that job and knock their dirt off your shoes.

      1. Smedley*

        Thank you! But when an interviewer asks why I left, what do I say that won’t sound like I am a troublemaker with a bad attitude? That is the only thing that worries me.

        1. AnxiousLady*

          I think a safe bet is to say you wanted to work somewhere with more opportunities for career development or training. But you can only say that if the company you move to actually does those things (room to move up , offers employee development, etc.). I would avoid saying anything about a toxic workplace or mental health because not everybody responds with understanding or compassion.

        2. zora*

          When I had a similar situation, I said I had resigned to deal with some personal issues that have been resolved and I’m ready for full time work again.

          I even have said “health issues” because it really was clinical depression, so that counts as a health issue in my mind.

          1. zora*

            Oh, and then pivoted to also talking about the position I was interviewing for quickly. If you keep a casual tone about the gap, it is unlikely that a reasonable interviewer will press you on it.

        3. Frankie*

          You could say something to the effect of “took time away from work to complete some personal projects, which are now complete, it was great!” I think your mental health qualifies as an important project.

          Hang in there, whatever you decide.

        4. Bring Hawkeye to the Details*

          “The future of the position I held was uncertain, but the dedication the job required, plus my duties to family and friends outside of work, made it impossible to spend time job hunting. I decided to quit so I could focus on finding the best new path for myself.”

    2. myug*

      Ironically, people love to hire folks who already have jobs (if you still like the company, maybe an internal move would work as long as it’s not gonna get back to your department head). However, I would look at the real risk of being fired and having to answer that question on an application and how you would explain it. Another factor to consider, can you afford to be unemployed for 7+ months, which is how long it can take in some sectors to find a job? Now that the negative Nancy stuff is out of the way, I would recommend just taking small steps. When you are too exhausted and demoralized, just go through job board non-noncommittally. Just see there are other things you can do. Read AAM posts on how to improve a resume and punch up a cover letter. Spend 10 minutes revamping one thing on your resume – don’t try to do everything at once. Little things like this make you feel a little less stuck.

      To make your current situation better, is there any telecommute options? Can you avoid your department head in any capacity by working in another part of the office? Can you get HR involved and especially, are you documenting more egregious behavior (i.e. memory loss that’s effected the bottom-line or mood swings that negatively impact outsider’s views of company)? Have others been concerned by these recent changes in department head? Can you use some PTO for a healthcare visit or even just to spend a day fine-tuning your resume and writing one cover letter or just to breathe?

      1. myug*

        “By looking at the real risk of being fired” – I do mean, if you think this person is gonna boot you, you might as well go! No point in having to deal with that question’s answer AND have your mental health destroyed in the process.

      2. Smedley*

        The problems have been reported to HR and documented by at least 6 co-workers in the two years since she joined our office (0ne of whom left after taking a three month health leave of absence), and I think some clients have also complained. My supervisor says they can’t fire the department head for a variety of reasons.

  129. coco oat cookies*

    New Boss is hiring and struggling to find a good fit. I asked them what kind of questions they were asking and they told me things like
    “Where do you see yourself in 5 years?”
    “What are you passionate about?”
    “Who made a really big impact on your life?”

    She said she’s looking for enthusiasm and no one has met her level of enthusiasm yet. I’m so so glad she wasn’t the one to interview me.

    1. LawBee*

      Those aren’t bad questions (well, maybe the passionate one is) – where are you in 5 years is a good question to see how the applicant views this job as part of her overall career plan, IF they answer it that way. Big impact on life isn’t bad. The problem is this vague enthusiasm metric she’s looking for!

      1. Psych0Metrics*

        Yeah I would question how much of an emphasis she’s placing on ‘enthusiastic’ rather than ‘qualified’, which is the metric that most applicants will be primarily prepared for IMO.

    2. Policy wonk*

      Enthusiastic, and its sibling energetic, are often used as code words for age discrimination. Boss is looking to hire people who are younger than the current applicant pool.

  130. myug*

    I am interviewing for new jobs for just over two weeks and after taking Alison’s advice, I’ve been getting interviewed out the wazoo – 4 interviews and one invite back for an in-person for next week and the rest of the applications at least are being forwarded to the hiring manager rather than outright rejected by their recruiters and HR. It’s great but also exhausting.

    The interviews themselves have also been pleasant? (Can never really gauge this for myself because I thought I bombed the one that moved me forward and asked me to come in for an in-person.) I know the first interview I did, which I really want, the interviewer mentioned they were swamped but did say she would reach out to find a time to come in. It’s only been two weeks but would it be prudent to send a quick “hi, still interested in coming in to meet everyone” email? I am not being pushed out of my current job so I am not in a rush to find something new and can afford to be unemployed for a bit, but since they are one of my top two choices, I don’t wanna let it slip through the cracks!

  131. AnonymousandHackedOff*

    Dearest commentariat, I need to vent. I am sorry but I have just had another day with an aggression by the boss, in front of my lead even. I had an interaction with an external client last week, and I did not know the answer to the client’s questions so like always, I said I would ask, and get back to the client. So I asked the boss, after asking my lead and another teammate – neither of whom knew. Well I get teh reply in front of my lead that I am “just trying to cover my a$$ and I don’t need to tell the client anything.” Um… how am I supposed to provide high levels of customer service to direct questions asked of me by people paying us monthly for a service? Esp. when they are part of our parent organization? I just was shocked. So I said, fine, I will tell them that I don’t have an answer and they should stay in touch and yada yada yada. wtf?
    I am so done with this crap. I have been aggressed by this boss for months. It is obvious and there were people in the room even this time aside from my lead who heard this. I want to leave by the end of January or Feb, and I am waiting on a certification I am currently taking to get done with classes, and trying to send out a few resumes and such. My lead after this came to me, and just said to reply gently to the client and tell them to keep in touch and we don’t know more than what we discussed, and that I would try to find out soon. It is just annoying as hell because this kind of aggression – anything I do, I get told that nothing I do is OK. My metrics for work are going really well, and yet other teammates don’t have to measure metrics for similar work. We are all in marketing. It is not a small team either. It is disheartening, morale killing, and I really dislike my boss a lot. Not even sure I want advice, as I am working on an exit plan and also just tired of the b.s.

  132. Ada*

    Just wanted to thank the person who suggested I check out children’s office chairs last week when I was looking for home office furniture recommendations for short people (read: average-height women). Thanks to that I came across the SitRite Kids Desk Chair. Looks like the dimensions will be just right, and it has a ton of reviews from women around my height who love it. And it’s only about $150! Won’t be ordering it until we move, probably around November, but I’m actually excited about this one. So, thanks!

  133. littlelizard*

    My company originally hired me into a role on the [area I work in] team that required very specific skills that I didn’t really have, and was given very little training on. The process for the work was fairly ill-defined, and it took a month or so for me to find a way to do that job effectively, using a method that was not used before. The process I came up with is fairly efficient, but it relies a lot on me using my personal LinkedIn for things, and I am not really equipped with any of the tools that would make this more efficient. I was moved away from this work toward work I was more interested in for a while, then back to it because “you were good at it and we need [results]”. During that time, we hired someone else who also had to do this kind of work, also with no background in it, and the process I used didn’t really work for her (and likely won’t work for many people).

    We are now expanding with a lot of people moving into a new office, and it looks like we’re hiring someone for a job with my original job description. I’m worried that if we don’t come up with a new process of doing that work, the new person will be just as lost and confused as I was in the beginning, and as my newer coworker still is. I also think it would generally help our results if we treated this task as its own job, and hired people with a background in it, rather than the current situation of it being a stepping stone for new people on the team. There are other people on the team who have to do similar work and it takes up a lot of their time, and I think a role that included all of this would help everyone. (On a more selfish note, I’m worried that if this person flounders without any process or resources provided to them, I’m going to be responsible for it again, and I’d really like to move away from it).

    I would like to bring this up to my grandboss (my direct manager likely won’t make any big suggestions and was okay with the non-process we had before, and was not aware we were even hiring). I’m not really sure how to present this beyond “if we hire like we did before, and “train” like we did before, this will be a mess”. Any suggestions?

    (Also, I’m lowkey plagued with paranoia that the job post means I’m going to be fired, which isn’t likely but still makes this all a little more nerve-wracking)

    1. littlelizard*

      TL;DR: My workplace has a job that’s pretty important but is set as the ‘stepping stone’ task for people doing other things, the process is really messy and there’s no training, and we’re about to hire a new person into the role. How do I talk to my boss about it?

      1. Evergreen*

        Late reply, but I think before you talk to your boss about it, spend some time thinking of a couple of solutions. The first one is to hire a dedicated person, but be prepared to hear that’s not possible (perhaps because it doesn’t justify a salary by itself, or it’s dull work that is hard to hire for etc).
        An alternative might be for you to volunteer to prepare formal training? Or become an informal manager of the task (you don’t do it directly but you make sure it’s done)?
        But also.. if you don’t want to get drawn into it again, it might make more sense just to not get involved at all. From your boss’ perspective the best candidate for this work would be the person most interested in seeing it done properly, which sounds like it’s you at the moment

  134. Dropping the ball - recruitment agency or NHS?*

    I’m an overseas nurse who has received a job offer from the NHS. I was referred/semi-headhunted by a popular recruiting agency, and they were extremely supportive and responsive straight until the point that I accepted one of the Trust’s conditional job offer. I was offered a tentative start date and asked to make certain it suited me, as they would be arranging my flight and accommodation. I got excited and told everybody.

    Anyway, soon there were endless lists of documents required for the pre-employment checks (my references, proof of address, DBS clearance, etc). I have been very responsive, replying to every request for additional information within the same day. The previously enthusiastic, assuring consultants now send me a curt email once weekly if that. Requests to update me on the process and tell me what is going on go ignored. When I attempt to contact the hospital, they have heard of me and know I’m coming, but direct me back to the recruiters.

    I was supposed to relocate to the UK on the 23rd and start this coming Monday, but here I am in my country, just waiting around to hear word of the start date. A tentative googling-about has shown that many Brits also wait forever for the NHS to give them a start date pending employment checks. Is the recruitment agency taking me for a ride, or are their hands tied by the pace of the NHS? I’m a ball of nerves constantly, and am already getting questions I can’t answer from people who thought I would already be out of the country.

    1. Bagpuss*

      I think it is probably the pace of the NHS, and especially the checks required about right to work in the UK, and police checks

      1. Dropping the ball - recruitment agency or NHS?*

        Thank you so much for replying! Any reassurance at all is more than welcome. I’ll try to be a bit more patient.

  135. NewBoss2016*

    I posted last week about having a weird week as a hiring manager for my department. We had a new employee have several medical issues and miss their first week, an employee ghost on their first day, and a candidate ghost on an interview. It kind of freaked me out that it all happened at one time. For more context– these were for professional admin positions and we have a fairly in-depth and transparent hiring process. Well, it is update time! The new hire that missed the first week was late their first 3 days. During the 3rd day they said they had to run to the restroom, but actually went out a side door, got in their car, and was never heard from again. I have seriously checked every online review sight like Glassdoor, googled our company name, checked for anything I could find! Our typical retention is 5++ years. Crazy week.

    1. Just Elle*

      I understand the weirdness, but I’m fairly certain its them and not you. There’s some kind of saying out there about “if someone shows you they’re a skunk, don’t try to make them a cat.” Their behavior is weird in other ways, and if someone was spreading rumors about your company it would probably show up in a reluctance for people to interview or accept, not actually come to work.

      1. NewBoss2016*

        I agree, this new hire was just a case of a “skunk” and we couldn’t have done anything to scare them off. We haven’t had many positions open recently in our dept., but due to overall growth and promotions we are trying to fill several at once. It has been interesting to say the least! Lots of learning, and ALWAYS reading AAM for advice.

    2. Veryanon*

      I’ve been seeing an uptick in this kind of behavior – it’s a very tight labor market, so people are feeling more comfortable about “peace-outing” from jobs. I wouldn’t take it personally if you can’t tie it to anything in your company’s environment. But yes, it’s frustrating.

      1. NewBoss2016*

        Another reader linked an article when I posted last week. It said that with the labor market there is a spike in people accepting jobs and not turning up, or leaving abruptly. It does make sense. Maybe totally unprofessional of me, but I a good laugh when the employee snuck out the side door. Without giving too much away, it was basically a Tom & Jerry skit trying to avoid detection. We are joking about how to access future candidates for their abilities to sneak out various entrances. But in all seriousness, it is part of it and I am not taking it personally.

    3. Turtlewings*

      That is really strange to all be happening at once! I don’t know that it means anything in particular, but yeah, that would weird me out.

  136. I edit everything*

    I applied for a full-time position this week, office associate for a small organization I deeply respect. If it had been any other employer, I probably wouldn’t have bothered. My husband works with them regularly and has strong connections there, as well, so I had him do the “Hey, my wife sent you an application. Could you keep an eye out for it?” thing. I’d be surprised if I don’t get an interview, though I’m over-educated for the job.

    I’m ambivalent, but I figured if I decide I don’t want to go back to full-time work, I can always turn it down, if offered. I’m actually surprised I’m as OK with this move as I am. I love freelancing, but I’m feeling a little burned out, a little bored, a little restless. I think this could be a low-pressure position that would let me keep my hand in with the editing on a scaled-back basis, but offer some social interaction and a regular paycheck.

    Has anyone else made this transition? How did it go? Were you glad you did it?

    1. Just Elle*

      When I was really burned out on a job, working too many hours and too high stress, I used to fantasize about being a receptionist. The low stakes nature, but still accomplishing something, and the social aspect all appealed to me. I ended up taking a job that was much more in line with my degree but less stressful and less high stakes with nice coworkers. It has made me very happy. I still wonder about the receptionist job, but ultimately couldn’t afford the paycut. I think it could be one of those situations where it was nice for like, a month, but then I went crazy without real “brain work” to do. My husband went from history to welding and gets really ‘understimulated’ sometimes, but is able to fix it mostly by listening to podcasts at work and writing as a hobby. So maybe you can strike a better balance with the scaled-back-but-still-doing-it version you’re considering.

      1. I edit everything*

        Thanks! The pay will definitely be a factor, but in part, it’s a positive for me, since freelancing is so feast-or-famine. I’m coming off a feast time right now (which also accounts for the burnout), but I’m always stressed about next month, next quarter, next year.

        If I have to choose, I’ll pick editing, because it’s good for my soul. But if I can do both, I’m willing to explore the possibility. I spent a summer working the stock room at TJMaxx between grad school and a relocation, and it was kind of soothing, I must admit.

        1. Just Elle*

          Oh man, I feel you. When I was in college I worked at VS and always volunteered to fold the panties, which everyone else hated, but it was so zen for me to just zone out for a bit. Like yoga I got paid for, haha.

          I think the good news is that with your freelancing, its not like you have the stress of finding a new job if this office position ends up not being for you. You have a bit more control over a slow ramp back up. You could also even potentially negotiate them down to more of a part time position – something like half day Friday or something – after you’ve proved your competence.

  137. STAR interview*

    I have an interview next week and from the Glassdoor reviews on the company’s page, it sounds like it will be a star (situation, task, action, result) interview process. Any advice on how to prepare for the interview?

    1. Just Elle*

      I have always had really good results by picking a few stories I want to tell that could generally be applied to many STAR type questions – a time I collaborated with others, a time I overcame a tough obstacle, etc. Then I rehearse telling the story out loud. That way, when its time to actually relate the story to the question, the story comes out with a lot of confidence and I can focus my energy on relating it to the question instead of remembering the details or making the story flow.
      I’m not saying pigeon hole responses into stories you’ve already rehearsed, but if you have 4-5 stories ready chances are you’ll have one that fits.

    3. new kid*

      Think of three or four specific situations that paint you in a good light in terms of your work ethic or management of a tricky situation etc, and then just adapt them to the specific questions that are asked. There’s no way of knowing exactly what scenarios they’ll ask for, but if you have several solid examples prepared, you’ll likely find that you’ll have something that fits.

  138. Maineiac*

    My boss discusses our conversations with her to one of my coworkers, who is not management nor on track to be management. I know my boss discuses work related info, at most it could be personal info as well. I can confirm because the coworker who she talks to has told me this herself. I feel trapped. Pertaining to me, my boss uses her as a liaison to get more information about how I might feel about certain tasks and even people within the company. I have since distanced myself from this coworker however I would like some advice on what to do. Everyone who has gone to HR with a complaint against my boss has been fired. To give context, this is a family owned and operated business with 150 people in my office and 400 globally. She is not apart of the family.

    1. NotAPirate*

      Start job hunting and practice grey rocking?

      Grey rock aka pass the beandip:
      Spy: Says something leading about a coworker/project
      you: Oh I hadn’t heard anything about that so I really couldn’t say, but have you heard about this new recipe of using avocados in dip?

      Tone is very bland, very clueless. Answers that give nothing but don’t sound defensive.

      “Wow Sally’s quitting? That’ll be a big change. Did I tell you about the show I saw ads for last night? Netflix is recruiting bad bakers for a TV show!” etc

      1. valentine*

        Start job hunting and practice grey rocking?
        Yes.

        Some bosses choose an employee confidant, just as some parents do to their kids. I don’t know that it’s HR-worthy, but the family’s treating her like family, and that’s your real trouble.

  139. Another Manic Monday*

    I will be seeing an EEO counselor on Monday afternoon to file a discrimination complaint against my federal agency’s HR department. I wasn’t referred to an internal position that I was highly qualified for. When I first talked to HR to get an explanation they said that I didn’t have the qualifications for the grade. I called BS on that because I have a strong resume that clearly demonstrate that I have the required qualifications. I was later told by HR that I didn’t qualify because I was Schedule A (disability hire) and in the excepted service. They claimed that the job announcement was only for the staff in the competitive service. I called BS on that too because I have access to the job announcement and can see in plain English that I qualify for the position as the announcement was posted. HR is basically evaluating all applications after a different standard than what was is posted in the announcement and they automatically disqualified all applications received from Schedule A hires. I don’t know how that is NOT a unlawful discrimination based on disability.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Drag. Them. I’m glad you’re going to file a complaint. I hope that things go well for you and HR fixes their nonsense.

  140. macaroni*

    This week featured someone from an old project reaching out to both me and some random dude I don’t know about a very minor issue with that old project. The dude chastised both her and me over how dare she even ask, lots of stuff like that, multiple e-mails. She and I resolved everything between ourselves on a quick phone call, where she mentioned that, yeah, that guy does that all the time, and it’s one thing when he does it to her, “that’s fine”, but he shouldn’t do it to anyone else. And that no one can stop that guy from doing it (they’re not in the same department, fwiw).

    And I just stepped back and marveled how there were two women verbally debriefing from a situation where a man just explodes over multiple e-mails over something so very simple as “we need to change this one tiny thing on this project and I don’t remember how to do it, can you help”. And how this is actually pretty normal to me. Does it happen every month? No. Does it happen regularly enough that I’m definitely very used to it? Yep.

    And it’s always men doing it to women. Funny that. Because, yeah, I don’t think that guy would have sent any of those e-mails if our names were, for example, Martin and not Marcia.

  141. Need more coffee*

    Good Morning! Long time fan and lurker of the site! I’m in my first job out of university (not first office job) and it’s mostly good. Pays good, adjacent at least to my field, regular hours so I can study for the higher certifications I need to actually work in my field, and good commute plus I get to live in the largest metro area in my state! My question is regarding a coworker: I’m the youngest on my team by 10 to 15 years and the youngest in the office by 5 years at least. I’m very much not a hugger but one of my coworkers (peer in the ranks, thank God, but like 15 years older than me) is. I think she kind of sees me as similar to her kids. The first few times I either stepped away if it was a hand on the shoulder or just stood there without reaction. Not the most mature reaction, but she picked up on it and doesn’t do it so much. Here’s the problem, everytime she refrains , she’ll say something along the lines of “oh yeah, you’re too gangster to be touched” no matter who we’re on front of including our team lead! How do I shut down the commentary?!?! I’m the only one on the team and in the office that got hugged in the first place and I REALLY hate being touched for all the fun reasons of anxiety and c-ptsd and insecure childhoods that I have NO desire to EVER disclose to any of my coworkers esp because I’m in an extremely good place rn.

    TL:DR hate being touched or startled, coworker makes commentary, how do I shut that down?

    1. macaroni*

      Shut it down by agreeing. You’re too gangster to be touched? “Yes, I am,” and move on. She’s trying to needle you and push it back into a familial relationship; keep it professional and enforce the boundary. She’s not your family member, and even if she were, she still doesn’t have the right to touch you whenever she wants.

    2. Kolin*

      I have the same issue with touching, so I don’t know what to suggest, but I wonder about her choice of phrasing. If you are a POC, the “gangster” thing sounds racist to me.

      1. Need more coffee*

        I’m not poc, but she is which growing up in the southwest with the current climate I’m highly sensitive to right now.

    3. Just Elle*

      Even if you didn’t have fears around being touched, its still a completely reasonable reaction. Grown ups shouldn’t touch other grown ups at work. So I’d just try to adopt the calm cool and collected “You’re being really odd about this.” “Its not me its you” type aura. Maybe even a “hmm, I didn’t realize ANYONE liked being touched” in a contemplative tone of voice? I even like Macaroni’s “yes I am” but it less about the words and more about the attitude: My request is very normal and yours is not

    4. myug*

      My other comment was eaten by the system but shut that “gangster” stuff down if you are POC. I had several “progressive” women call me and only me “homegirl” at work & coincidentally I happened to be the only black woman. Needless to say, I spoke up to our department head, who actually listened, and they don’t say it anymore (they probably think I was “sensitive” as they don’t speak to me anymore. Good riddance.) Otherwise, she shouldn’t be touching you at all. Work is like kindergarten in that regard – keep your hands to yourself.

      If she continues to make that comment, just say, “What an odd thing to say” or simply, “Wow,” and walk away.
      “Susan, I’ve made my boundaries around personal space pretty clear and yet you still try to hug me. Why is that?”
      “Going forward, I need you not to hug me. Can you do that?”

    5. SwirlPencil*

      Could you say, “It’s really strange that you keep pointing out I don’t like to be hugged or grabbed at work. Why are you so concerned about it?” Maybe the awkwardness of explaining why it’s so important for her to be able to touch you will make her stop?

  142. Pebbles Bishop*

    TD;DR: a job has opened up in my dream industry and I can’t take it, and it’s very bittersweet. Advice for moving on/commiseration?

    Long story: For most of last year, and on and off since, I was a volunteer at the contemporary art museum in my city. I got to know the small staff and general day-to-day operations and I loved every second of it. I’m an artist in my spare time and for a while I really, really wanted to transition into working in the arts.

    This June, I got married to a wonderful man who’s decided to go back to school for accounting. So, for the next few years, I’ll be the sole/main breadwinner – my office job provides the bulk of our income and our medical/dental/vision insurance. I love my industry and the niche that I have grown in to, and I really like my company and manager. Just a few weeks ago, I made the case for a raise, and it’s now in the works. Basically, my job is awesome.

    I still get the monthly volunteer email from the museum, because I do still try to volunteer when I have time. Yesterday’s email included a job opening at the museum. It’s for a volunteer services coordinator – they’re looking for someone to run the volunteer and intern programs as well as do general office admin and event planning/coordination.

    I do not exaggerate when I say this job is PERFECT for me. I know the museum inside and out, I know the current staff as well as a lot of the volunteers, I have admin/HR experience, I have event planning experience…I would LOVE this job!

    But I am not going to apply. It would be a huge pay and benefits cut, and one that I just can’t afford right now. And it’s been a really bittersweet decision. I do really like my current industry and company and plan to be here for at least the next three years (until my husband is done with school). But it’s hard to know that a door I’ve wanted to go through for a long time is closing, at least for now.

    So. It’s been a hard morning! I decided last night I wasn’t going to apply and it’s been hard not to think about it today. Just wanted to share to see if any of you have gone through something similar.

    2. Just Elle*

      Ugh, I know its so heartbreaking.

      When I was in school, I landed a highly competitive unpaid internship in my dream industry at my dream company… and I couldn’t afford to take it. I was really sad and really mad at the world for a long time. But it didn’t do me any good to feel sorry for myself. When I finally stopped moping and started focusing more at being good at my paid, less exciting, internship, life got a lot better. And then a few years later, I was in the position to take a job at the company… and I decided not to. I had come to realize that I really enjoyed doing important work at companies with a real operating budget, and the product being made mattered less to me.

      I don’t really know if I have any advice to offer, per say, just to say 1) there will always be another dream job opening and 2) sometimes we can make our own happiness in the mean time

    3. Kathenus*

      In case it helps, I left a really good position a while back for a place that had long been a ‘dream job’ goal. And for many reasons that weren’t foreseeable at the time (having to do with the director), it imploded badly and became a nightmare not a dream. So I was left without the really good old job and the dream job. I landed OK but in hindsight wish I had stayed with really good job. So maybe it’s fate telling you that you’re in the right place.

  143. jeweled tortoise*

    Help!! I’m filling out a job application and I have an unusual terminal degree — a doctorate in music, which is usually listed at “DMA” instead of “PhD.” This is an academic-adjacent job, and there is no dropdown option for music OR a DMA? How on earth do I communicate that I in fact have a doctorate? Right now my options are “PhD” or “Other,” and the discipline option that’s closest is “Fine Arts.”

    For context, this is a writing job for a large corporate company. I’ve been a writer and editor for various academic-related positions related to my field, and the job really speaks to my strengths. I’m beginning the search to transition from academia (I don’t hold a permanent position), and this is making things a bit harder!

    1. Long-time AMA Lurker*

      I would choose the PhD option and clarity in your cover letter that you have a TYPE of doctorate, AKA a DMA. My guess is most corporate folks won’t gristle at the difference and will instead find it interesting and have questions for you (take it from someone who has had to explain multiple times what an MFA is at a Fortune 50 company). The “Other” option might have them overlook your badass academic record!

    2. I edit everything*

      I’d probably pick PhD, since it’s at least the same level. Is there an “other” for the discipline? Otherwise, “Fine Arts” is probably close enough, since it’s a fairly broad category.

    3. jeweled tortoise*

      Thanks to you both! Great feedback. I will take your advice. Happy to hear from folks who have gone in a similar direction!

    4. Just Elle*

      I would pick PhD just to get you through the auto filters and get you sorted into the highest level. As long as its clear on your resume you’refine.

  144. Long-time AMA Lurker*

    Late to the game, but hoping folks have thoughts: what are the best ways to support a partner who is still healing from the lingering effects of a toxic workplace?
    Boyfriend has had a new job for over half a year now, but he still harbors so much anger and resentment about how poorly he was treated, how little he was paid, and how people he cares about are still treated like crap. I fully empathize with his concerns – the job was bad, like CEO was investigated for shady campaign donations bad – but I do worry he hasn’t worked through these feelings. He has a lot of literal and emotional debt. If you’ve been there, what helped you?

    1. Kathenus*

      What I try to do when I get into this mindset, which happens from time to time because of a really bad situation at my last job, is to realize that letting this continue to stress me out is just hurting me. The toxic workplace and toxic boss at the workplace aren’t being hurt or stressed, just me. So I try as hard as I can to consciously let it go because otherwise I’m giving someone I really despise control over my current happiness.

    2. Ali G*

      I’m going through this now (job was 2 years ago!) and what’s been really helpful to me was talking to a therapist. While I am not sure I agree, she is basically treating me for PTSD/how she would treat someone that was horribly betrayed and emotionally abused by a partner.

    3. Aspirationally Anonymous*

      I don’t know that my toxic job was as bad as this, but my buddies from the old job and I would get stuck in cycles of venting and complaining that made it impossible to get any emotional distance. If he’s still in touch with former coworkers and getting updates on whatever chaos is continuing to unfold, I would really recommend either not seeing those people for awhile or restricting those interactions to non-old-job topics. If you’re the one he’s venting to, I think it would be reasonable and healthy (for both of you!) to place some limits on this. Rehashing the same frustrations over and over was not good for me and just put me back in the same negative emotional place every time.

      I don’t have great advice for overcoming this, but I know that I also brought some unhealthy patterns to my current (non-toxic!) job. Sometimes I still get irrationally, over the top paranoid when my team is making a process change that affects other departments, because at the old job people would react in such petty and vindictive ways if they didn’t like a new process. Recognizing when I’m being irrational about something like this is definitely the first step to talking myself through it and trying to let go of the fears.

    4. Natalie*

      Honestly what has helped me with my husband is setting quite low limits for how much of an audience I can be for this, directing him to other friends or a therapist to do some actual processing (rather than just complaining), and being blunt that I certainly needed to emotionally detach from that workplace and he probably did too.

      It doesn’t take much “just venting” before you have diminishing returns or even emotional harm. Reassurance can similarly be addicting in a certain way.

      That said, you could offer some logistical support around finding a therapist and/or tackling the debt. Exactly what that looks like will vary depending on your skillset and interests, but those are pretty easy places for a person to get stuck and need a boost.

  145. Brazilian Hobbit*

    Any going from working full-time to part time success stories? How did you go about doing it?

    I live in a low cost of living area, don’t have rent and my bills are quite modest. My physical and mental health are at that point where not working would make me miserable (I’ve tried, and was losing my mind after that “resting from all the stress” period right after quitting), but working full time is also exhausting and leaves me not really having energy to have a life outside working and taking care of basic needs around the house.

    Any experiences would be more than appreciated!

    1. Long-time AMA Lurker*

      Just wanted to say I’m following this and hope you get good responses! As someone who deals with some chronic health issues, this is something I have considered – too bad I have a lot of student debt to take care of :(

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I have. But it was in order to take other part-time jobs, so not completely the same.

      However it was very easy to transition because the role I was in was easily made into part-time. I was sitting a lot and twiddling my thumbs for a lot of time that I could point to. So if your position needs to be full time it’s a different kettle of fish.

      It’s all about sitting down and figuring out what your weeks look like, what could be shuffled to someone else if it won’t bog them down completely and so forth. Or if you can condense your work or do some remote work as well if necessary. It’s a process and it takes everyone being happy to go that route.

      It may be good if you’re not fully utilized, since it saves the employer money as well. It just can’t harm their work flow or activities in the end.

      1. Brazilian Hobbit*

        I don’t think I’ll be able to transition where I am now. It would be possible, but very unlikely. But I’ll definitely look at something like that, see if I can talk to my HR people. At least they can’t say I never gave them a chance.

        I’m fully remote at the moment, but it usually means that I pick up slack for everyone and end up working overtime whenever needed (which is pretty often, because things get busier as it hits close to the end of the day). It’s still draining because I’m overworked, but who knows. Maybe my boss has a moment of benevolence and we can make it happen!

        Thank you!

    3. Asahi Pepsi*

      I had to leave a full time job after a mental breakdown. I didn’t have any useful skills and I’d had a large gap in my work history after mental health issues caused by the same line of work (customer support). All I knew was that I needed to get a better work history, away from customer support, while leaving time to take care of my underlying mental health conditions.

      I started with temping. I was caught by one of those misleading, generic job postings temp agencies use to get candidate information. However, I didn’t mind this, as I was hoping to get picked up by a temp agency anyway. Temping was one of the best things I’ve ever done for myself. It gave me experience in many types of offices, many WAY more functional than the ones I’d worked in previously. It also gave me ample free time to volunteer for different organizations around town, which was great for my mental health.

      Volunteering actually led to my current part time job! I was approached by an organization I’d worked with previously. I had the sort of skills they needed, thanks to my experience temping. It’s now been months and I’m generally happy here. I plan on staying here for a few years, so I can have a good long term stay on my resume. Ultimately I plan on moving on towards a data coordinator type role, but I wanna make sure my resume looks okay before I go for it.

      1. Brazilian Hobbit*

        I feel you so much there. I’m actually on customer support too, and that allied to a pretty messed up work culture, is driving me very close to a breakdown. I’m looking to get out before I lose my mind and quit without anything lined up.

        Thank you so much for sharing your experience, I’m gonna look into temp agencies and see if I can find any around here!

  146. Seeking Second Childhood*

    I have a gut level reaction that I don’t want to supervise people. I know I don’t want to supervise (and have to draw back from) a long-time friend who I knew long before we both ended up in the same department. Can you all help me remember that it’s *OK* to prefer to stay the technical expert?
    Worst part is I’d be happy to do organize & run the projects…but this place is miserable for not supporting its managers & supervisors, right down to making them responsible for all the work the hourly staff can’t get done within the 40-hour-max work week.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Our senior CSR has straight up said “no” to even a slight supervisor role because it’s not anything they want anything to do with! It’s okay to be in a comfort zone and stay in it. It’s okay to stay in the middle of the ladder. We need you there, there’s a lot of space in the middle to still stretch and grow a little here and there. You don’t have to get to the top. It doesn’t make you a failure or stunted, it makes you a happy person who is in a position that they’re comfortable in. It’s like those of us who only buy clothes when we need them, not just seasonally because everyone thinks they need to keep up with the fashion trends or else you’re dated and that’s a “bad thing”.

      Especially when you see that the next step is swimming with sharks, it’s okay to say “LOL nah sharks aren’t my thing.” Don’t throw yourself into a fire just because it’s what some of the “cool kids” are doing, you know ;)

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        >when you see that the next step is swimming with sharks, it’s okay to say “LOL nah sharks aren’t my thing.”
        I ….am rather thrilled with that sentence. Thank you!

    2. Just Elle*

      The best favor you can do yourself and your team is to play to your strengths. You know what they say about being promoted to your level of incompetence. And as an engineer, trust me, not every technical expert has any business being a manager. In fact, I’d say its the exception to the rule.
      My new company actually has split the role into technical project managers, and people supervisors. The actually good, helpful, people supervisors are the ones with very limited technical ability but who genuinely love supervising people. The worst are the technical ones who know how to micromanage but not how to help you grow your career. I’m not really trying to imply that you’d be bad at it – only you know that – but usually passion is closely tied with aptitude.

      Personally, I’m somewhere in the middle. I hated the isolation and detailed work of being an individual contributor. I was a supervisor for a while and people liked me, but honestly, I just found it so extremely draining and stressful. Now I’m a project manager which is the perfect balance of both.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I hear you on that. I enjoyed my previous project management position, and I’m perfectly happy being marginally managed and helping to wrangle the workflow within this department as the most senior member.
        But there’s no $ThisDepartment Project Manager role here — to manage this department you *must* tack on the personnel-related responsibilities. Not only is there a dearth of project managers in this place, there’s a dearth of training for new managers in how to manage people.

    3. Engineer Girl*

      There’s different types of leadership. Management is one of them. Technical leadership is another. In technical leadership the job is about influencing others and convincing people to work toward a technical goal. At some point in your career you’ll have to move into a leadership position. The question is the type.
      I’d question the company here. Many larger engineering companies actually accommodate the different career tracks. I’d seek out a new company if they are trying to force you into a management track.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        It’s not so much that the company is trying to force me into a management track. It’s that I know I could do a very good job at the technical portions of the job and that I know I would dread the people-managing portions of the job. And I’m already dreading what could happen if they bring in a bad people-manager.
        If we could merge with a related department and split supervisory vs technical roles with THAT manager, I’d do it in a flash. They’d do the reviews & people-wrangling for the alpaca team & the llama team, and I’d rework the llama development. But we’re related departments in very different management chains so it’s unlikely to happen.
        I actually am poking my resume with a stick trying to get decide what I want to do next, so there’s that.

    4. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Well, I had to ask my friend in HR for the information on how to report a manager who’s verbally abusing staff. And this is after it’s been escalated within my dept, but things just aren’t changing.

      I have a similar personality to this manager. I can 100% see why this is happening. And I’m also very sure that I’m capable of doing the same thing. Kinda makes you take a second look at that decision.

  147. PersistentCat*

    ARGH I’m stuck on the dumbest quandry. I’ve googled this, but I’m not finding much that’s relevant to the specific question.

    In our documents, if you change a low level document, you often need to change the documents upstream of it. In addition to directly upstream documents, occasionally documents from other systems will have references to the document that changed. Managing the upstream documents is relatively easy (which regard to changing them when the low level document updates), but the other system documents are being perpetually neglected.

    What kind of method do you use to keep track of “if doc # changes, check docs 1-10 for any required changes too”? I use Excel to keep a hierarchy map of certain document systems, but I’m wondering if Sharepoint or something would have a better method of doing this…

    2. juliebulie*

      If they’re all PDF documents, you can use Acrobat’s “Advanced Search” to search all of them for the document number at the same time.

  148. Do I smell?*

    Full disclosure: I can be paranoid, and I don’t know if I’m just overthinking it, but there’s a possibility that I’m the smelly coworker. I shower every day (and I recently heard it’s actually acceptable not to shower for 2-3 days straight), I don’t sweat, and I don’t have any medical conditions (that I know of), but I know I differ from most people in that I don’t wear deodorant/perfume or wear/carry anything scented. Could this in fact be the problem? If so, should I feel ashamed of myself or should I let those who do have a problem with my “smell” deal with it?

    1. No Tribble At All*

      Apparently the body adjusts to not wearing deodorant pretty quickly — I wouldn’t know, as I’m a very sweaty person so I need it. If you’re not a sweaty person, you probably smell fine. Are you concerned for any reason? Do you notice people sitting further away from you than from anyone else? Has someone said something? Because if not, you’re probably fine. Not everyone has to wear deodorant.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You probably don’t smell.

      It’s actually pretty rare to have the stinky-kid stank unless you don’t shower at all or have very restrictive showering habits and are perpetually dirty.

      I don’t shower daily either. I have hippie parents. With hippie parent unwashed friends for my entire life. Guess how many actually smelly people I’ve ran into over the years? One. One person. And it wasn’t because he didn’t bathe, it was due to those genetic issues you hear about! I had one person in school that also had odor issues but he was abused and literally denied regular bathing options.

      So I’d just stop worrying about it. You can always ask those trusted folks around you if they notice any unpleasant odors.

      I thought I was stinky at the doctors office awhile back during a physical and apologized to the doctor. The doctor was like “LOL gurl, I smell nothing and I’ve smelled some bad smells in this profession.”

      When you do shower, do you use soap? I know some people who are soap-free and those ones tend to be a little more ripe at times but it’s not that noticeable.

      However please note if you wanna smell stank, come on up to the Oregon Country Fair next year. *cough*

    3. littlelizard*

      Unless you’re coming to the office directly from a workout, I really doubt you smell. Normal human existence takes a while to build up a true stink.

    4. MissDisplaced*

      Sorry but I do not think it is acceptable to forego showering for 2-3 days! And especially if it’s hot.
      And if you’re not wearing deodorant or perfume, it is all the more important to shower. Now, that being said, you probably don’t stink if you are taking reasonable precautions. If you can’t shower daily, I hope you at least clean up a little?

      Note: I get on my husband’s ass about this all the time because he thinks he can crawl into bed after mowing the lawn and being all sweaty on Saturdays because he gets lazy and sleepy at night and doesn’t feel like getting a shower. I am like, nope you stink! Get in the shower! I don’t want to sleep next to smelly all night!
      I myself shower morning and night because I get hot and sweat. Plus, showering before bed makes me sleep better. I think I would die if I couldn’t shower daily, and I seldom miss that unless we’re camping or something. I don’t get the aversion to it.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        The problem with your husband is that he’s sweaty and not cleaning up afterwards.

        The person who posted this comment is doing manual labor and then foregoing showers! They mention directly that they’re not working up a sweat throughout the day.

        Also scents do not mask smells. You can tell when someone didn’t bathe themselves properly and just squirted extra perfume over it. Perfume isn’t Frebreeze, it doesn’t eliminate odors. Floral or woodsy or citrus smells over a sweaty work shirt is still not going to do anything to make it not smell vile.

    5. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Check how freshly laundered your clothes are. EVERYONE’S MILEAGE WILL VARY. But generally, shirts, trousers, skirts, and dresses can often go more than one wearing without being laundered. Suits can be worn several times, so long as they’re properly hung up, brushed off, and aired out. Sweaters can go a whole season if you have a lot of them in rotation.

      Underwear, socks — one wear only. Camisoles, t-shirts, and leggings/tights tend to be one-wear items as well. If you wear a bra, you don’t want to wash them too often. But if you aren’t using anti-perspirant or deodorant, be careful that they aren’t getting a little funky where the band meets your underarm.

    6. SwirlPencil*

      I know someone who doesn’t wear deodorant and who showers everyday, and I’ve never noticed a smell, so I’d assume you don’t smell either, especially since you’re not doing anything to get sweaty.

      Do you change your underwear everyday and wear fresh clothes? If not, then that might be a source of smelliness.

      Has someone actually told you they have a problem with your smell?

    7. CheeryO*

      What do you mean, “Could this in fact be the problem”? If someone told you that you smell, or if you’re catching a whiff of smell off of your own body, then you should start wearing deodorant. It’s not just about what your body is used to; some people do need it, even if they aren’t big sweaters.

    8. Bagpuss*

      Has anyone suggested that you smell?
      If you are showering daily you probably don’t, unless you are very sweaty or do a very physical job.
      Also, nasty smells are more likely to be related to not washing clothing enough – unwashed or poorly washed clothes, where you can get stale sweat smells, are much more noticeable and much more unpleasant than the kind of smell you get from relatively fresh sweat (e.g. the end of a hot day)

      If there is someone whom you trust, ask them.
      If not, consider taking off your clothes at home, having a shower then giving the clothes you took off a sniff to see if you notice anything (the delay means if you’ve been desensitised you should come to it with a fresh nose, as it were!)

    9. The Shirt Remembers*

      Check what type of fabrics you’re wearing. I have a couple of tops that I LOVE, but they are made of synthetic fibers and after a few months in the regular rotation they have a funky smell that just will not wash out (and that only becomes evident once they warm up i.e. when I’ve been wearing them just long enough to arrive at the office).

      I thought my body was extra stinky until I figured out it was the clothes…

    10. Aphrodite*

      Everyone has great ideas but I wanted to throw out the possibility that it might be your clothes IF you are going with cold water and less detergent. (Or possibly your washing machine needs to be cleaned. Read here: https://www.apartmenttherapy.com/search?q=clean%20washing%20machine )

      I know people are saying you can use less detergent than the manufacturer recommends, but I do not. And I’ve read that environmentally friendly means using cold water. Nope, not for me. Hot, hot water, two rinses if possible, and the right amount of detergent. Otherwise your clothes may take on a subtle smell over time.

      1. Sam I Am*

        I use white vinegar in the fabric softener opening in my washing machine, cold wash but 2 rinses. Gets all the smells out, reliably.

  149. zora*

    JOB HUNTING ACCOUNTABILITY THREAD
    Oops, sorry folks, meant to do this sooner, but here it is! What did you do this week to move on your job search??

    1. zora*

      As for me, I totally didn’t do anything :::facepalm::: kept letting myself get distracted by other things.

      But talked about it with my therapist this week and I’m going to take some steps by next week. I am even going to find a day I can use my lunch break to do some job search tasks, there’s some stuff I can do on my phone.

      And I’m texting with a friend/former coworker who also works in the industry I’m interested in, and we’re working on planning lunch. So, I’m hoping she’ll have some advice and ideas for me. Plus, she is a huge fan of my work from when we worked together, so I think that little ego boost will help to have a cheerleader in my court.

    2. SwirlPencil*

      I did a phone screening for a job I was really interested in on Monday, but I think I bombed it. (I hadn’t slept well in a couple days because of a severe cold, didn’t have time to prepare, and my brain felt fuzzy/foggy.) When I told them I was sick and apologized for any sniffing/coughing that might happen, they asked if I wanted to reschedule, but I declined to (I didn’t think I’d feel any better anytime soon, and when they scheduled the call they only offered time slots for Monday anyway–presumably they wanted to get it done on Monday). Just feeling really bummed about missing out on a possible job opportunity now.

      1. zora*

        Aw, don’t be bummed yet! You don’t know for sure yet. Self-compassion is important when job hunting, try to give yourself a break and figure out another step you can take in your search so you can keep up the momentum? Good luck and hope you feel better.

        1. SwirlPencil*

          I ended up reaching out to them after checking and realizing I actually talked to them last week (my days have been a blur since I got sick). I didn’t remember anything about the phone screening at all, so didn’t know if they’d given an estimated time when they’d give updates. They said they’re still screening candidates and will reach out if they want to interview me. That’s frustrating. If they’d planned on doing phone screenings for at least two weeks, why did they only let me chose from a few hours on one day? I get the feeling that they just don’t want to tell me I’ve been rejected.

    3. wingmaster*

      I applied to a few postings this week. Immediately got an invite to do a phone interview the same day I applied. It’s with a large, well-known company, but I am not that interested in working for this company, because it may go bankrupt like similar companies…I just got a bit desperate and just applied. I’ve noticed that this posting has been up for a while now, maybe 3-5 months. Maybe we’re both desperate.

      I also received 2 rejection emails this week :( but one of them was really great and encouraging, and she mentioned she would be on the lookout for other opportunities both within her company and outside. So I made a new connection.

      1. zora*

        Yay, a new connection! That’s something! Give yourself a reward for getting those applications out, that’s better than I did. :0)

    4. Princess Scrivener*

      I’m entirely happy with my FT job, but recently got certified as a personal trainer. My next step toward a PT job doing that in a group, bootcamp-style setting–I have an audition next week, so my prospective employer knows I can project my voice, wrangle the peeps, modify for those who need it, and don’t lose my cool if something goes wrong. I appreciated your post last week. It reminded me to keep moving forward, one hard step at a time, and prompted me to schedule my audition, so thanks!

    5. On the hunt*

      lol, posted a question here?

      There’s not much I can do at the moment. I’ve applied at the places that are hiring in my area and am waiting to hear back from any. I had a few interviews last week, waiting to hear back about those.

      I’m not sure what else there is to do right now, until more jobs open up.

      1. zora*

        Yeah, being in that spot is hard. Maybe figure out some self-care things you can do for now to keep your morale up? Exercise or a hobby, or whatever makes you feel good? Best of luck!

    6. Hopefully*

      I didn’t do much this week either, unfortunately. My girlfriend was working overnight shifts this past week, so life got a bit hectic and disjointed. I did submit an application last weekend, but got 2 more rejection emails in the meantime. My gf is back on a normal schedule (the overnights were a temporary thing) and we’re gonna work on more applications tomorrow.

  150. Kolin*

    Anyone have suggestions for accommodations or just general success strategies for getting through college with Tourette syndrome? I’m mostly worried about distracting others, especially considering that any given class may have other people with disabilities that are sensitive to noises/distraction. I can’t take all my classes online, unfortunately.

    Also, I recently said a slur as a tic. Thankfully, no one was around to hear it, but now that it’s happened, I’m afraid it will happen again. I’m the kind of person who swears at home but not at work and I don’t use slurs anywhere. What’s the best way to address it if I say a slur as a tic and someone hears me, especially someone who might think the slur is aimed at them? I don’t want people to think that it reflects my real beliefs.

    1. tamarack and fireweed*

      No first-hand practical advice, sorry. One of my friends has Tourette’s. He’s a highly respected researcher with a PhD. He’s lucky in that he doesn’t have swearing tics — until I knew about his Tourette’s I thought he was just a fidgety kind of person.

      For other people I don’t know personally so well but have observed, it seemed to have worked better to be really open about their conditions, what it looks like, and what tics are (and what they mean … or don’t mean!). It heads off students being weirded out because they just don’t have a frame of reference for you, beyond the usual ablist climate. Can you take the large classes online, where it’s unrealistic to expect everyone to get to know you AND it’s more likely that there are others with particular needs for quiet. And then work with the schools disability office (they are likely to have had students with Tourette’s before, if they’re any good!) and the individual instructors.

  151. Bee's Knees*

    We’d talked about it a few times before. I’d gotten him a new one just before we switched to the new system, and I explained the first time he asked me how it worked. And the two times after that. And these three times.

  152. Aspirationally Anonymous*

    Should I be honest on an employee engagement survey?

    My organization is launching a recurring employee engagement survey, and there’s no way to answer anonymously. Only HR can see the responses; our HR department is very small and has a high level of integrity, but putting my real honest feedback in writing still feels weird and risky to me. Should I share my actual opinions (which are currently mixed) or just plan on giving the same blandly positive responses each time?

    1. Let's Sidebar*

      I have some skepticism these types of surveys are ever as confidential as they are purported to be. How constructive can you be with your criticism? Feedback is important, but I wouldn’t put anything in a survey that is more explicit than I have been or would be willing to be if asked in person by those responsible.

    2. juliebulie*

      I used to give honest replies to those things, but one year our results were really low, and our department was tasked with fixing itself (never mind that our concerns were more about the corporate level and couldn’t be solved locally). This resulted in the formation of committees, mandatory focus groups, additional surveys, etc but no actual improvements (though if asked in a survey, we’ll say everything’s great!).

      At another place I worked, the company president (it was a small company) read and responded to all of the negative remarks that people replied to the survey. And his reply to each one was, in essence, “I disagree, so that’s not correct.”

      If you can give any feedback that is sincere but harmless (like “I wish we had an ice maker”), it doesn’t hurt to try. But don’t put “this place kills my soul and makes me want to bite people” because whatever they do in response to that (if anything) will probably launch your biting rampage.

  153. t. fire-weed*

    Mostly just to vent …. interviewing talk ahead.

    Background is, I’m an academic, but a geographically limited one. That is, looking for a postdoc job all over the world or country was not an option. There are local opportunities, but they require waiting (ok for a while – luckily my spouse’s job is quite good), relationship building (I am not good at this if it’s “just for me”!). Also, I first got permanent residency that includes full employability. (With the exception of the occasional job that requires citizenship.)

    Add to that that I needed to put some distance between myself and one of my ex-advisors, and the other one moved up in their career into university administration, where they are excellent, but it means loss of a potential PI to work with.

    So I did adjunct-teaching, some temp work. Right now, I have a part-time temp job with a project that is recruiting: One faculty member, one postdoctoral researcher. I applied for both, got interviews with both. Interviewing took a serious delay when the government (it’s a public institution) nearly enacted an absolutely massive budget cut, and no one knew what kind of hiring would still be possible, even for projects that are financed with grant funds. (Grant funds require matching funds etc.)

    Faculty interview was last week. Well… I guess this is why people don’t just apply for one faculty job and get it. It was humbling. Not /bad/ precisely, but 10 hard multi-part questions, and even though I anticipated most of the areas (except for one wide-open general opener that threw me a little), they were asked in a way that would allow a more experienced candidate to show themselves in their best light – and I am at the low end of the experience range they are considering. 5 interviewers out of whom I really like 3 and want to keep working with them in some form. Mostly I hope I didn’t disgrace myself too badly. (And if this should still be going forward, hiring/start would happen at the summer/fall 2020 horizon anyway.)

    The postdoc interview was supposed to happen in August, and then kept getting pushed out. My contract was to end after it, so if I get picked, I would be transitioned into the role, and if not I could transition away. So the contract also had to be extended twice. I know I am doing useful work, my specialty is what they’re looking for etc. AND I am already here, am already confirmed compatible with climate conditions given winter is at the door (that’s an issue). But I know they’d have the integrity to hire whoever fits best into their vision of the team, and we have had some excellent winter-hardy transplants from elsewhere (like myself originally!). It’s now happening this upcoming week, and a lot is riding on it for me.

    The usual advice in my situation would have been to be more aggressive applying elsewhere. But then I’d have (hopefully) had to make a yes/no decision elsewhere. Given the glacial speed with which the current round of hiring is progressing that would have been very hard. So I’m paying with income and lost alternative opportunities to further my standing for the chance to work with the project that is I think the best fit for me right now. Wish me luck that the gamble works out!

  154. Frustrated In DC*

    My coworker (we worked closely together and we got to be good friends outside of work) passed away very suddenly. I am so sad. And I am slightly furious with my boss (who has worked with her for many many years before I met either of them) at his lack of compassion about this – he seems more concerned with his image/clients leaving than anything else.

    2. Let's Sidebar*

      How awful. I’m so sorry. When it comes to the reaction from your boss try to remember that everyone processes these events differently. Expressing vulnerability, emotion, and grief are often tough and a professional setting adds some extra weirdness. If there is room for benefit of the doubt I bet you will find relief in giving it now.

    3. Kendra*

      I’m so sorry for your loss! We lost a coworker not too long ago, too, and it’s been rough, both on the day-to-day, “who will do X now that Sue is gone?” way, and also in the sense of having lost an important friend.

      Is it possible your boss is one of those people who has a hard time grieving in front of others, or just processes more slowly, and so that’s why he’s focusing on the shallower aspects of dealing with her absence right now? It doesn’t excuse him for not being respectful of others’ grief, but it could be a reason for the way he’s acting that’s at least somewhat understandable. (Or maybe he’s just a creep, in which case I hope he doesn’t make things too much worse on everyone else.)

    4. juliebulie*

      I’m sorry! What a rotten feeling.

      Is it possible that your boss is just as sad as you are, and trying to hide his grief in a very awkwardly stupid way?

  155. Sally G*

    I’ve been director/VP level of operations for the past 6 years. I’m moving to a new city and in my experience, roles at this level can take several months to hire. I want to look into temp jobs to stay busy. How do I get a temp job with my background? Will companies hire someone with my experience for temp jobs?

    1. Let's Sidebar*

      I think it would be pretty unusual for someone at your level to be hired in a temp position. What is drawing you to that over consulting or an independent project while you pursue a director/VP position?

      1. Sally G*

        I don’t know anyone in the new city. Do you mean freelance consulting? I just feel like it’ll take as long to get that as it would to get a new job. Unless you’re talking about something else.

    2. zora*

      Yes, definitely!! There are often needs for short term support, either as an interim position while hiring for a role, or to cover maternity/paternity leave.

      Look for staffing agencies that specifically handle your industry or operations positions, or even reach out to consulting firms that work in the industry you are in, sometimes they could use additional consultant/contractor support while you are looking. Some companies even use staffing firms to run their searches for that level of position, so definitely look for those and ask around.

      1. Sally G*

        Really? What makes you say that? I am asking because the other person commented that it would be an usual and I feel like it might be difficult and because I feel like companies might be more likely to hire someone right out of school for those jobs.

        1. zora*

          I’ve worked at 2 different workplaces where someone was actually hired for that kind of position. But I guess it wasn’t what people normally think of as a “temp” job.

          One was someone hired as an Interim Director for a crucial position where the person had left suddenly, and that person was brought on through a staffing agency and then did end up getting hired on permanantly. The other was a company that offered better than average maternity leave, and a high level Operations person was out for 6 months on maternity leave, and they brought someone as a temporary coverage for those 6 months. I even know of a nonprofit that brought in an Interim Executive Director while executing an ED search and that person worked for about 3-4 months.

          Maybe it’s more common in some industries than others, but there are staffing agencies that specifically handle searches for higher level jobs like this, so definitely look around for those. And like I said, consulting firms, I think that’s how people talk about temporary positions at higher levels is about bringing in a ‘consultant’ rather than a ‘temp.’

        1. WellRed*

          I think there are firms that specialize in executive temping though it may be dependent on where you live.

    3. AudreyParker*

      During a recent temp assignment I met someone at that level in HR who was filling in for a few months to cover a maternity leave. And while I am NOT at that level, my assignment was to bridge a gap between a previous person leaving and wrapping up the current hiring process to bring someone new on board, which I imagine could happen in any role where they don’t have the bandwidth for other people to pick up all of the duties during a period of transition. So definitely possible!

  156. i am samuel*

    Back when I was a student a few years ago I had a 3 month summer internship. Part of it involved going out to other places for meetings, events, visits etc. I ended up leaving the internship after only a few weeks because the person was such a horrible driver. It scared me to the point I couldn’t make myself get into a car with him. I’m talking speeding (and not a few miles over the limit with the flow of traffic, but excessive speed), texting, crossing solid lines, going the wrong way up a one way street as a “shortcut”, just to give a few examples. I raised my concerns to someone in HR and the person above my former boss and both told me I was wrong or imagining things. Since I couldn’t get in a car with him to go out when needed, my internship was terminated. I ended up finding a retail job for the rest of the summer until school started again, but I saved way less money because retail was minimum wage and the internship paid more, and it was too late to find another internship that summer so I came out with less experience than the rest of my classmates. I am working in the field now. This week I found out my former boss caused a collision recently. The occupant (driver) of the other car was killed, as were the 2 passengers in my former boss’s car. My former boss had minor injuries. He was arrested and is now facing vehicular manslaughter charges and a bunch of other charges because it was his fault. The 2 passengers in his car were the people I had raised concerns about his driving to all those years ago. The news reports mentioned how bad his driving record was, although he had never been arrested before his record was so bad the insurance company cancelled his insurance and he didn’t have any at the time of the crash. I am glad I trusted my feelings back then. I almost didn’t because I really wanted the internship. I can’t help but feel angry because if I had been listened to back then 3 people might not be dead now. The innocent loved ones of all involved are hurting so much and it all could have been prevented. Sorry this is so grim. I just had to get it out. I appreciate the good environment in the comments here.

    1. zora*

      whoa, what a horrible story. :(
      It’s such a good reminder, both to follow your gut, but also for those of us in management to check into concerns about serious things that involve safety. And I’m glad you made the safer decision even though it was limiting your career options somewhat at the time.

      You were right, and it’s okay to feel anger, it’s totally understandable. This is so sad, and I feel so terrible for all the victims and their families.

    2. Kathenus*

      Wow. That’s horrible. But so, so, so smart of you to make the decision you did to leave the internship versus putting yourself at risk. You might very well have saved your own life. You tried to raise concerns that might have helped others, so you did everything you could and protected yourself. I’m glad you made those decisions and are around to write this.

    3. WellRed*

      How awful! As an intern, you did what you could. Now three innocent people are dead. If this was a work trip, that company is now financially exposed as well, especially since if you don’t have insurance, you’re not legal to be driving (at least where I live).

    4. Koala dreams*

      What a sad story! There were so many warnings and yet he insisted on driving until the worst happened. It was brave of you to decline to ride with him when you was an intern.

  157. Roy G. Biv*

    When the badge seeker pointed out the letters/bar code wearing off the badge, that makes me think badge seeker was equating it to a barcode, like the grocery store check out. Especially if he always took the ID card out and waved it at the “reader.”

    1. Bee's Knees*

      I was mostly confused by that because he keeps it in his wallet most of the time. Just taps the wallet to the reader outside the door, and goes on in.

      1. Deanna Troi*

        Yes. And obviously the card reader is reading SOMETHING on the card. If you don’t understand anything about technology, then it is no more farfetched to think to think that the reader is SOMEHOW reading the numbers on the outside of the card than it is SOMEHOW reading a chip inside the card, even through a wallet. Because frankly, reading the chip through my wallet seems like magic to me. Acting as though “well, duh, obviously it has to be a chip because it can be read through his wallet” just seems so judgemental of someone who has different life experiences than you.

  158. JustaTech*

    Question about how to show leadership and be visible on a project while also not stepping outside the boundaries of my department?

    I’m on a technical project at work (as one of the technical people) that involves people from lots of different departments, groups I rarely work with like Purchasing and Regulatory. I’ve got some concerns about this project (mostly that it is going to be far more complicated than anyone seems to realize, and they don’t understand that all of the people who did this last time are long gone and didn’t share their knowledge), but I realize that doing well on it would make me more visible to assorted higher-ups.

    The problem is that in the last ~6 months the head of my department has periodically wigged out over any of us reaching out to other departments for information. (Wigged out as in, I asked the marketing team where to find a template we are supposed to use for posters and somehow this was spun by someone, not the person I asked, as “make my poster for me” and great-grand boss freaked out. The documented instructions on our internal corporate site *said* to request the template.)
    Great-grand-boss has said that (all of the sudden) we need to go through “proper channels” when asking about things, which in his mind is I ask my boss, who asks grand-boss, who, if he remembers (chancy) will ask either great-grand-boss, or the boss of whoever has the information I need.
    This is clearly insane, and a huge waste of a lot of people’s time, but he’s the boss.

    So, how do I balance actually getting the work done efficiently and well (and not looking like I need my manager for everything) and not upsetting great-grand-boss’ sudden need for hierarchy? (I’m hoping he’ll get annoyed with the constant pestering and give it up.) If I stick in-department and in-project group as much as possible will that suffice?

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Yeah, I don’t have much insight here. My company is kind of whacked that way too. My immediate team is good and we all keep each other informed, but the executives from other departments often butt in and don’t have the full picture, and will have a fit because something went out they didn’t know about. Well, why would they know about it? It’s not their department or area.

    2. Mike C.*

      Yeah, this is batsh!t crazy and I think the only way you’re going to make any headway is work to rule and pester them as much as they’re asking you to do up and until they get tired of it and let you go back to doing things the reasonable way.

      Ask me later about how I got out of printing massive reports every morning for a bunch of middle managers a few years back, it was a similar process.

      1. tamarack and fireweed*

        Yes, this.

        If great-grand boss has designed some sort of siloed Rube Goldberg machine of a process and is coming down hard on you for circumventing it, the way to get change is to get your boss, and maybe the boss above them, to do the pressuring for you. Because if THEY get bogged down in urgent requests for information they only half-way understand (BECAUSE THEY DON’T NEED TO) and that they can clearly see (BECAUSE THEY KNOW YOUR WORK REASONABLY WELL) could be handled on the individual staff-member level much more efficiently, they have a great incentive to clear that obstacle for you with your head-of-department.

  159. Jake Peralta*

    Just found out my manager is likely being incredibly misogynistic and I’m not sure how to proceed.

    I work in a team of three (my manager, my colleague, and I), all out of different offices in our global company. Nearly all of our interaction is virtual or phone based. I and my manager are male, my colleague is female. My colleague and I work on different aspects of the work under our purview, so most of our interactions are one on one with our manager, and not with each other. I have always had a really great relationship with our manager, he is solicitous and accepting of my feedback, supportive of my decisions, and allows me a good deal of latitude in both scheduling and performance to do my job how I think it should be done, defending my decisions to those outside our group. I recently found out from my colleague that she has had pretty much the opposite experience, with him constantly challenging her decisions, pressing her for more work but not allowing her the time to complete it, outright instructing her to no challenge his comments in meetings in front of others, and coming close to claiming credit for her work on several occasions. He is clearly sees her as a threat to his position despite constant mentions of counting down to retirement soon. She finally reached out to me to see if I had the same experiences interacting with him, which I have not. So clearly he is being a colossal sexist about dealing with her in private, but putting a neutral public face on it. I want to be supportive of her however I can, but I have not idea what that is. We both still have to work with him (until and unless he actually drives her away with his behavior), but as noted, he will be retiring soon, and I think it’s a no-brainer that she, not I, will replace him (which I wholeheartedly support).

    So. what do I do? I’ve been trying to make a point of emphasizing credit for her work as its come up and singing praises for her contributions in our weekly public forum, but I’m not sure what else I can do.

    1. Kendra*

      Have you actually seen any of this behavior yourself? If so, it would be a good thing to report to HR; if you haven’t, your options are a little more limited. You can encourage her to report it, and be willing to testify to anything you’ve directly experienced (whether that’s your boss’ treatment of her, or your own experiences with him), but without seeing it for yourself it’s a little trickier to call it sexism. That’s entirely possible, but it’s also possible that there’s something else going on there – maybe there are issues with her performance that you’re not privy to, or maybe she actually has crossed the line into insubordination, or who knows what. Have any other female employees had issues with him that you’ve heard of? Has your colleague herself actually called his behavior sexist?

      If it is plain and simple sexism, you can help her best by not engaging in it yourself (in other words, treat her normally, and – if you feel comfortable doing so – calling your boss out with a, “that’s a strange thing to say!” or “That’s weird, I’ve always thought Jane did a great job at X, Y, & Z!” if he starts to do any of this in front of you). Keep an eye out, and be willing to talk to HR if they come investigating (and make sure that your colleague knows that you are; knowing there’s someone to back you up in a situation like this is HUGE); beyond that, the ball’s kind of in her court on how to handle the situation.

    2. WellRed*

      It might be sexism, it might not. Is there other evidence of that? I admittedly don’t have the bigger context, but I’ve seen people treated this way by members of the same sex.

    3. House Tyrell*

      Being a man in this situation is a huge advantage! Since your boss respects you and your ideas, you need to use that to help her. If you see him claim credit for her work, question that- “I thought Jane worked on that” or “Wow Jane did a great job on that report.” In meetings, ask her directly for her ideas and thoughts. It sounds like you’re already doing this- which is great! If she already approached you about the behavior, you should feel free to let her know that if she wants to escalate this to HR you’d support her.

  160. Swiftie*

    How should I handle using my vacation time when I’m at my first job out of college?

    I lined up a job right after graduation at a medium-sized nonprofit and started about a month after my graduation in mid-June. I’ve been at this workplace for a little over three months now and have generally gotten positive reviews on my work, but have made a few mistakes here and there just while learning the company and the ins-and-outs of my role. As part of the vacation package, I get 11 days off my first year that increases to 14 after one year of service with the company. I’ve generally heard advice that it’s bad to use any vacation within the first 3-6 months and am already taking two days off in October to go to a cousin’s wedding, so I don’t want to ruffle any feathers by taking more vacation time than necessary. I guess my questions are:

    – When would it be acceptable for me to take a long weekend? I have friends in Boston that I want to see, but I would probably need to take one or two days off to account for the travel time.
    – What about longer periods of time off, like a week? Is that something that I should wait until my one year anniversary to do until next June, or would it be fine to do that in like March or April?

    For what it’s worth, my wonderful manager has told me that I should use all of my vacation time and not feel bad about taking it, but I also don’t want to do anything that might hurt my career in the very early stages when I’m still trying to prove myself.

    1. OG Orange You Glad*

      1. Definitely use all your vacation time. You don’t get that back (unless your company has a great roll over policy but usually that’s limited to a couple of days) and it’s part of your compensation package .

      2. Generally I’d say talk to your manager and see what the culture of time off is in your department. Do you need to request off x weeks in advance? Is it a hardship to take off a full week? It sounds like your manager is open to you taking time off, so use it!

      Normally it’s not a good idea to take a lot of time off in the first few months of a job, but you seem to passing that “probationary” period around now. It’s probably ok to start taking off a day here or there as long as you clear it with your manager and your work product is staying up to date.

      1. Swiftie*

        Oh, I should mention that unused days roll over, but you can’t bank more than 30 days at a time. I’ve seen people take two full weeks off without any huge issues, but those people are also much more senior than me.

        This is a super helpful guideline for thinking about this – thank you!

    2. Colette*

      They’re giving you vacation, it’s OK for you to take it. It makes sense to hold off a few months (which you’ve done), but I think you’re fine to take time off as your manager is encouraging you to do.

    3. blink14*

      100% use all of your vacation time. There is a really bad cultural precedent in the US that you “can’t” use all your vacation time and that if you do, you’ll look lazy, uninterested, taking advantage, etc. You’ve been there 3 months, mistakes are normal! Even after you’ve been there a year or even longer, mistakes will happen, we are human.

      Do not get caught in this trap. Your vacation is PAID TIME OFF. It is part of your benefits package and your salary. Be smart and use it wisely, and follow your boss’ lead. Take the long weekend, but don’t do it back to back the wedding. I would wait on taking a week until you’ve been there maybe 8-9 months, mainly because I like spreading my time out, and that way you aren’t taking all the time off so close together. Vacation time at my previous job wasn’t accrued, it was a bank of time per year, and nothing carried over. You better believe I used every ounce of it. At my current job I accrue vacation time each month, 20 days a year, and then you can carry it over into the next fiscal year and it has to be used during that time period. Again, I use every hour of it, which my manager encourages and my workplace – a university – heavily promotes its benefits package as a huge piece of compensation (its known for high vacation time and insanely high sick time).

      One thing you should do is read the vacation culture at your workplace. At mine, 1 week vacations totally normal, 2 week vacations aren’t unusual, but are definitely planned in advanced, and 3 week vacations are looked more critically. Figure out what people do and follow their lead, but make sure you use your time off.

    4. WellRed*

      We actually give three weeks to be used within the first year. When asked by a new junior employee the advice I gave was to pick a week for an absolute vacation (in conjunction with schedules and workloads, of course), and then use most of the rest on extended weekends or adding onto holidays, all of which is totally within our culture.

  161. Em from CA*

    Question for the commentariat about meeting scheduling and religious holidays.

    I have a more-or-less mandatory three-day out-of-town work trip that got scheduled during Rosh Hashanah. I’m not Jewish, so it doesn’t impact me personally, but I don’t know if that’s the case for others on my team.

    I’d like to come up with a way to encourage others in my organization to be thoughtful about meeting scheduling. I doubt we’d schedule a major work trip over Christmas, so I wonder if there’s an appropriate way for me to encourage folks to consider other major religious holidays when putting meetings on the calendar. Obviously, I can (and do) speak up when dates are first floated, but this particular trip was put on the agenda in a way I didn’t get a chance to do that.

    My initial instinct was to email the meeting scheduler, but on second thought I realized this might make her feel singled out. Is there a better way to do this? If I were in the private sector I might go to HR, but I work for state government, so my suspicion is that wading into religious topics might be a contentious thing for state HR.

    I’m a new hire here, and also a new manager. So I’m trying to tread cautiously. Any advice?

    1. Swiftie*

      This doesn’t help with this particular instance of scheduling, but maybe you could suggest putting major religious holidays on your internal calendars? That’s what my office does to make sure that we don’t accidentally schedule things during Rosh Hashanah or Eid Al-Fitr.

      1. noahwynn*

        Our office has the same. It is helpful to see them on the calendar, especially because we don’t have set holidays anymore. Instead, we use a bank of floating holidays that you can use anytime during the year to accommodate everyone. We also encouraged everyone to go in and mark their out of office holidays on their personal calendars similar to how PTO is done. That way you know when scheduling a meeting or event if a particular person will be out.

      2. Kendra*

        I sometimes have trouble remembering when my own religious holidays are going to be (ugh, Easter!), so I think putting them on the calendar is a great idea. Scheduling more than one person for a meeting is always going to be complicated, so the more information you can get into one place, the better!

    2. JSPA*

      Broadly avoiding major religious holidays isn’t considering promotion of religion, and certainly not of any one religion, so far as I know.

      I’d google something demographic about religion in your area (some religions are present at low levels nationwide; some are far most clustered), and combine that with a list of major religious holidays (with the understanding that if any employee follows some other religion, those will be added on request). Where you set the cut-off for “we take these into account by default” is, I suppose, up to you. So long as it’s defensible “by the numbers,” it really should be no problem to pre-accommodate for likely conflicts.

      Good on you for taking the initiative, BTW. And also for not assuming that everyone who identifies with a religion, adheres by following all the holidays, or that one person counts as a stand-in for all their titular co-religionists.

  162. How Professional and Competent is Your Workplace?*

    Many places I’ve worked, the company is a total mess and most workers are not professional at all. Things that I take for granted (for example, not talking or looking at my phone during presentations– a recurring theme since I’m a trainer) just don’t seem to be shared values. When someone’s incompetent there’s no accountability. On Casual Fridays people wear literal sweatsuits.

    What’s it like at your place? Are workplaces with majority competent, at least somewhat-professional staff a myth? Should I bother finding a new job or just get used to it?

    1. JSPA*

      I’ve worked in places with zero dress code beyond “covered genitals, covered splash areas and closed toed shoes” (hello, scientific research!) where people were driven, completely committed, incredibly competent by any metric, and every person was 100% accountable for their project. I’ve worked in or dealt with places where anything other than a suit was give side-eye (but actual competence and accountability were entirely hit-or-miss).

      If you’re conflating competence and accountability (absolute essentials of professionalism) with wearing sweatsuits (clothing being at best an indirect, culturally-agreed way to “signal” the intent to be professional), I’m frankly not very comfortable with you training people.

      I’m going to say that if you about competence and accountability, you might as well stay where you are, in that, given your stated metrics for professionalism, you’re not likely to end up someplace that’s actually “more professional,” if you do jump.

      On the other hand, if you don’t care all that much about competence and accountability, but feel more comfortable when people dress a certain way or uphold certain conversational norms, you should certainly be able to find workplaces that have a dress code and successfully meet your standards for SEEMING professional.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      If you think that dress codes and people looking at their phones is a huge deal, you’ll never be happy in just about any workplace.

      People breech etiquette all the time, everywhere.

      You would need to go into a very conservative profession if you want to limit your exposure to general rudeness that you’ve mentioned. Even then, you’ll end up with people looking at their phones during meetings, talking over each other, interrupting a speaker, etc. It’s sadly just part of being human, people tend to lean towards the self centered, rude behaviors.

      This is part of the on going changes involved in business as well. Most places have really steered sharply away from the old school idea of everyone shows up perfectly dressed to sit at their desk, perfectly attentive and saying “Ms. Jones can you please forward me that Teapot Report we discussed yesterday?” “Yes, Ms. Smith, it’s on it’s way.” We don’t sit with our hands folded in our laps and pay perfect attention during a meeting or training session. People wiggle around in their seats and play with their phones or fidget toys, etc.

      1. How Professional and Competent is Your Workplace?*

        Thanks for your response. I really just included the sweatpants and ignoring training because they had just happened and were fresh in my brain. I mean more basic incompetence like not returning assignments within weeks of the due date, failing audits, etc. I certainly don’t expect Mad Men standards of professionalism but I do think a general lack of attention is related to not being able to follow through with what you’re being told to do.

        I’m actually surprised by the response on this site in particular because I feel like the AAM crowd tends to have a high standard of professionalism–not discussing sex/politics/religion at work, being type A in general, etc. My workplaces have always been way more casual than what’s described and promoted here, even the ones with more competence.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Oh yikes. Okay yeah NO, it’s not normal just flake off due dates or fail audits. You get fired for that, everywhere I’ve been. I usually only work for very casual places [manufacturing, I had to explain to our exec more than once to stop expecting people to wear interview clothes to openings on the shop floor!] but when it comes to actual accountability and doing their jobs, that’s how you get terminated in regular places.

          People will act like kids in church frequently in an office setting that’s one thing and just happens. But having an office full of people who are not doing their jobs, no, just no!

        2. JSPA*

          If you present the essentials, then, Oh my! YES you can do better.

          You buried your lede in the first post. Two of your three examples (and the only two that were specific) were about surface / externals.

          I do actually get how if the core is rotten, the externals can seem like yet more evidence of that core rot. But really, they’re darn-near independent.

          The human mind has evolved to connect unrelated items if the co-occur in front of us. I therefore do (still) fear that unless you fight against conflating the two, it will be harder to find the company that runs well. Rather than the one that looks good.

        3. tamarack and fireweed*

          I’m somewhat stuck at “Mad Men standards of professionalism”. Of *professionalism*?

          You seem to be contrasting professionalism and a casual attitude, which, to me, are completely orthogonal. That is, you can have neither, both, and one without the other and no great correlation.

          Where I am, well-dressed means “clean clothes with not too much dog hair”, and you would be making a mistake to presume the nerdy person in a conservation or sporting event T-shirt with the purple hair is anything less than a consummate, high-performing professional.

          1. How Professional and Competent is Your Workplace?*

            I was specifically responding to “Yes, Ms. Smith, it’s on it’s way,” which has not been a mainstream expectation of professionalism for decades, and I was saying that it was not my expectation.

    3. CheeryO*

      They’re not a myth at all. The more people you work with, the more likely it is that you’ll run into incompetence, but there are plenty of employers out there who run a tight ship. Look into consulting firms or other client-based companies where people are more likely to be super polished.

    4. Fikly*

      Mine is professional, empathic and kind. It may be a unicorn.

      It is also majority women staffed, and our CEO is a women. Anecdotal, but I am compelled.

  163. just a small town girl*

    I have THE. WORST. luck. At the start of August I got a wonderful promotion to a position that was literally created for me that I begun doing full time Sept 1, and it included higher pay and responsibilities, and it’s so far been going good. There have been some growing pains and I’m having to learn out some of my new teammates which has been difficult for me. I had written in about my situation and had an update a few weeks ago for anyone who thinks this sounds familiar.

    Last week our IT department posted a job for help desk technician which I would be PERFECT for and I was even encouraged to apply by several people in IT because I’m good at IT work, just don’t have a degree, and they always joke and call me their junior technician. It has a starting salary that’s $7k more than what I make now ($30k) and might actually be less stressful than my current (new) job.

    I know the optics are terrible and so I’ve decided not to even attempt to apply for this other job. But god, it kills me. I know I’d be a strong candidate and the money would be amazing. I’m telling myself that the personal and professional references I’m getting in this position, from people who valued me enough to make an entire previously-non-existent position for me, are definitely worth something to me, and I’m telling myself that our IT department has higher than average turn-over and that there is probably a reason for that and maybe when this person inevitably leaves I can consider the position then, all this stuff but…still. Bad timing/bad luck for me.

    1. Anona*

      If you apply, do you think your current job would find out? I’d apply! That’s a huge pay increase, and you have good reasons. And even though you just got a raise.. you got a raise to $30K. That’s still tough to live on, generally. I’d frame it as something like “this is terrible timing, since I so appreciate all the work the department had put into helping me, but a twenty percent salary increase was something I wasn’t able to pass up” if/when you get the job.

      1. just a small town girl*

        Oh, absolutely. This is a small org with about 100 people in the building and a very active rumor mill. I’m sure it would be common knowledge within a week.

        The other side to this is that when I first started working here 3 years ago, a VERY similar situation happened. IT opened up a job posting I was highly qualified for, despite only having worked here about 3 months. I applied and even interviewed (very well) but the job went to someone else whose position was being phased out and they didn’t want to have to fire them. I used the exact “too good to pass up” language when I informed my boss I’d applied, because it was an even higher jump from about $22k to $31k. So this would be the second time something like this has happened…and I don’t feel ok doing it again.

          1. valentine*

            So this would be the second time something like this has happened…and I don’t feel ok doing it again.
            These are internal transfers that benefit your employer, who will be deciding whether they want you where you are or in IT. You’re oddly prioritizing your employer who is underpaying you. but even if you want to do that, you can frame this as helping them get the best person for each role. Seeking better for yourself isn’t disloyal or, if it is, it’s properly so because your loyalty should be to yourself first.

    2. JSPA*

      Not clear if those encouraging you were the hiring boss / the people who’d be doing the hiring, or just “other people in the IT department.”

      Go to the ACTUAL people hiring and say, “I would love to become qualified for this job, next time it’s open. What outside coursework would I need to complete in the meantime, and what additional skills would I need, to be completely competitive?” Make it clear–again–that you don’t have the degree they’re asking for.

      Best case scenario, the actual hiring team ask you to put your hat in. And then, do it. You don’t even have to take the job if it’s too much of a hit to your current team; just don’t leave them hanging while you deliberate. And, you know, I think it’s OK broach it with your current boss. It’s great that they made the job for you, but who knows, they may actually agree that the IT job is your ideal fit.

      1. just a small town girl*

        It’s just what would be coworkers, though senior to me and one of them is a lead who has the close ear of the hiring manager. They’re not asking for a degree for this position; I’m 100% qualified as is which is why he was suggesting I apply.

        I honestly don’t think I will apply right now unless something drastic changes. I’ve made my peace with where I am for right now, but if this job opens up again six or eight months down the road, I would probably apply then.

    3. Forkeater*

      While the money would be nice (I’m not sure what you do or where you are but your salary seems very low) from what I’ve observed help desk jobs have high turnover for a reason. You have to deal with everyone’s personalities and stress (when things go wrong with their computer and they’re under a deadline etc.). But is there any opportunity to have your own salary reassessed? Maybe even using this opening, like why is that position posted $7k more than yours?

      1. just a small town girl*

        Yeah, that’s what I’m telling myself. And that hey this is a great chance to see what the role (which is newly created) would be like before I try to put my hat in the ring for it.

        Honestly, we JUST set salaries and this one was a huge jump from before ($24k to $30k – but note the handle, I live in a relatively small town with the according relatively low COL – I rent a 3br house on the good side of town for $1260/mo). The reason this IT position is higher is because even here, IT people command a higher salary than Marketing Assistants, which is what I am now. But honestly, I plan to try to use this IT position, next it opens, as a talking point about why my salary should grow significantly in the next year, because I’m still pretty underpaid, just not egregiously so anymore.

  164. Mrs. Carmen Sandiego*

    Boo: Didn’t get the fedjob. Got a rejection letter, 5 weeks after the 1h15 min panel interview. Would’ve been a 48 min commute, better than what I currently have.

    Yay: Current job gave me an office to work from (previously had a loud cubicle). And they’ve been incredibly accommodating re: leave, etc. and have a potentially fascinating project ahead for me (teapot next-gen light saber project. can’t give actual topic lol). 1h from new home, but they do telework plus holiday telework, flex hours, and offer the best benefits in the county, even if it’s not govt.

    1. NeonDreams*

      Booo about not getting the fed job. I’m waiting to hear back from mine and the wait is killing me. It’s been 3 weeks or so. Good that your current job is giving you an interesting project to work on. Being engaged in the work you’re doing certainly helps.

  165. Manager Feeling Hurt (a lot less now)*

    I posted last week about an employee who took a 2-week vacation and extended it by a week without discussing it with me. (This one: https://www.askamanager.org/2019/09/open-thread-september-20-21-2019.html#comment-2657279) I wanted to thank everyone who gave me advice in that thread–reading the comments clarified a lot of things for me, and I’ve taken some steps, where I can, to hopefully prevent something similar in the future.

    1) Our (over-)reliance on this employee with lack of cross-training was a major issue, if not *the” most important issue. It’s hard to cross-train for their position because we are a small department that does something completely different from the rest of the (also small) company, but I’ve been discussing options with my boss to make cross-training possible.

    2) Some of you said the employee is probably burnt out and attempting to leave. The latter may or may not be the case (their pay is excellent for the type of position they are in), but I’m pretty certain the former is spot-on. There’s a lot of company-wide issues that’s leading to their burnout–and if I’m totally honest, I’m there myself–that I can’t do much about. My inability to do much about it aside, though, this definitely increases the importance of #1, which I’m using to push for substantial cross-training.

    3) I didn’t ask for proof that backs up their family emergency story, for multiple reasons. Many of you raised the possibility of setting a clear policy on PTO use, which I also discussed with my boss. It’s probably not happening (as a small company, we seem allergic to formal policies and systems in general), but at least the idea is out on the table.

    4) I also realized that I was taking the whole thing too personally. Yes, the employee probably did mean to hurt my feelings, but that’s also because they see me as a part of the “management,” “company,” “them” whatever. While that was disappointing and I don’t think I can see this employee in the same way I’d seen her before, it was also a much-needed wake-up call to act more like a manager than a friend. I have 7 years of existing relationship with this employee, so it’ll be hard, but I know that’s something I need to work on.

    5) The employee’s behavior making my ability as a manager look sub-par was an angle I hadn’t considered, and I very much appreciate that scary insight. (Scary, but an angle I absolutely should be aware of.)

    6) I did talk to the employee regarding how disruptive their sudden vacation extension was, and I think I got it across to them that they need to discuss any changes to their vacation plans with me as soon as they know that may be happening, rather than dropping the news in my lap the day before.

    This ended up being a much longer post than I intended, but thank you everyone for the amazing advice, and Alison for providing this space for the community!

  166. JSPA*

    A recent thread included a (truncated) discussion of the problems with, and alternatives to, the term “grandfather clause.”

    Most of us use it to mean, “a new / improved procedure or requirement with an exemption for people already in place at that time.”

    The original historical usage was stikingly different. After the civil war, to block minorities (and to a lesser extent, “carpetbaggers” and other newcomers) from voting, many Southern States instituted variably-difficult skills tests, knowledge tests, property-ownership requirements and/or poll taxes. These came with a “grandfather” exclusion, which exempted those men entitled to vote before 1867 and all their lineal descendants (from that point on). As “miscegenation” (procreation by people listed as being of two different races) was also illegal, this effectively meant a “forever” exemption for all white people who could prove their ancestry to the satisfaction of the local election officials.

    Some people have suggested using “legacy” (as a noun and verb) for the common meaning of “grandfathering,” but this actually suffers from several of the same problems as “grandfathering.” The term has long been used in education for preferential treatment afforded to the lineal descendants of past students. It’s still about creating a self-perpetuating class of people. (Also, de facto, in most circumstances, racist and classist.)

    Other languages do have terms to cover a one-time recognition that people present before institution of a rule accepted their position in good faith…and that it’s a bad-faith act to roust them out, upon institution of a new rule. Those terms mostly focus on before / after type terminology.

    As I posted there:

    French uses “clause d’antériorité.” “Anteriority clause” could work. Spanish uses “clausula de derechos adquiridos” (“acquired rights,” presumably in the same way that we have adverse possession or squatters rights) or “clausula de precedencia” (precedence, meaning, preceding, being before, being anterior to).

    We already use “precedence” to mean something somewhat different, legally and colloquially, in english. Anyone want to weigh in on whether “anteriority clause” has some other meaning, or would work? Or throw in a suggestion from some other language, that can back-translate into English? Can someome dig up what England used for this concept, before the US created the phrase, “grandfather clause”?

    So, anyone overseas, and have a good usage that we could back-translate? Any lawyers, on “anteriority clause”? Any historians, linguists, etymologists, lit majors etc who know how we labeled such situations before 1867?

    I’m pretty sure that “old fart clause” won’t fly.

    1. Kathleen_A*

      Fascinating – I had no idea. (Just to confirm what you’ve written here, here’s what the Online Etymology Dictionary has to say on this topic: “Grandfather clause originally (1899) referred to exemptions from post-Reconstruction voting restrictions [literacy, property tax] in the U.S. South for men whose forebears had had the right to vote before 1867 [thus allowing poor and illiterate whites to continue to vote].)

      1. Lilith*

        At the university setting, we also use the term “reciprocity” in the case of my college not having your degree program but the college in the next state does so students can go out of state but pay in state tuition. The 2 universities have reciprocity with each other for, say 10 slots. Think law school/dental school.
        I’m not sure the word “reciprocity” works here, but maybe .

        1. JSPA*

          Reciprocity is a good system : )

          But it’s a different sort of special case / special rule than “grandfathering” [as used].

          Reciprocity / reciprocal means that each institution gives and gets from the other in comparable measure. There’s no sequential temporal element; in fact, there have to be two or more institutions functioning concurrently.

          1. Lilith*

            Yes, that’s true I guess if we think we aren’t learning anything from the new student/person. I suppose I’m grasping at straws there. But your point is certainly more valid.

            1. JSPA*

              Ah, I get you, I suppose it’s indeed reciprocal in more ways than one! But still, I think, a distinct sort of special accommodation.

      2. JSPA*

        Yeah, I also checked the OED when presented with those statement as fact, feeling certain that there must have been some exculpatory prior usage, somewhere. And, uh, nope. So, uh, ouch. And, yuck.

        I’m still presuming that the SITUATION of “not binding someone to rules made post-hire” is not quite so historically new, and so must have had some other name. (But on the other hand, maybe that concept came far later that I’m assuming, with the rise of the nation-state, and rule of law etc. Hard to believe that Iceland or Switzerland or the Hanseatic states or the trade guilds wouldn’t have that concept codified somewhere, though.)

    2. No Tribble At All*

      FWIW, my USA-office-of-European-Company used ‘legacy’ for a while after mergers: “this new policy applies to everyone but legacy-XYZ Corp employees, who are still under XYZ Corp rules.”

      1. JSPA*

        Ah, the prior thread presented “legacy” as a verb attached to the individuals, rather than the individuals being the legacy of (prior company). I can see “legacy” making sense in the case of a merger. Not really in the case of a new policy, without a merger. (A legacy has to be left by someone or something.)

        And I’m still troubled by conflicts with the dominant usage of “legacy” as a free-floating noun:

        “an applicant to a particular college or university who is regarded preferentially because a parent or other relative attended the same institution.”

    3. Koala dreams*

      Thanks for explaining those words, I’ve seen the grandfather one but not known the meaning, the legacy one is new for me in that sense.

      For grandfather, could retroactivity clause or bridge clause work? Maybe transition clause?

      1. JSPA*

        Oh, I like those!

        In particular, Google suggests no other common usage for “bridge clause.” That’s brilliantly simple, and exactly to the point. “We need a bridge clause for the pre-existing staff who don’t happen to comply.” That leaves open whether they have no requirements, or modified requirements, compared to new hires, but that’s…not terrible.

        Same reaction towards “transition clause.” (But “Bridge” is shorter and sweeter.)

        I suppose it would be more of a “non-retroactivity clause” than a “retroactivity clause,” but I’m being super-pedantic, saying so. In the abstract, I think either would work. Looks like “retroactivity clause” is already in use for laws, however. And there, it means “a way of making the law apply retroactively.” So for our purpose, it would have to be “non-retroactivity clause.” that’s still a few syllables short of antidisestablishmentarianism, but I’m not sure it’ll knock “grandfather clause” out of usage.

        Founder exemption or clause? Pioneer exemption or clause? (those also have some overtones.)

        Antecedent? Antecedent clause?
        Precursor? Precursor clause?

        Both sort of correct, meaning “one who predates or comes before.” Both sometimes used in the sense of a progenitor or ancestor, so harking back to “grandfather” without being “grandfather.”

        Pre-existant? Pre-existancy clause?

    4. LilySparrow*

      I have seen this described quite clearly and easily by stating that the policy applies to all new participants from [Date] and after, while participants who joined before that date will be covered under the prior plan.

      The two plans/policies often named according to their dates, like the 1997 Plan and the 2018 Plan, and the individuals grouped or labelled accordingly.

      It’s not a one-word term, but it’s easy to understand and already in use. If you’re trying to eliminate a common word that most people have no idea is problematic, you’re better off going for clarity instead of trying to reverse engineer terms from other languages that are going to be meaningless to the people using them.

      I mean, the conversation is going to go something like,

      “What’s anteriority mean?”
      “It’s a grandfather clause, but we don’t say that anymore.”

      It’s not going to wind up in a good place.

      1. JSPA*

        Agreed! It would have to be something really brilliantly self-explanatory and compelling to uproot the false etymology / faux sociology of what we all presume “Grandfather Clause” to mean. None of these quite get there, for me.

        Even “bridge clause,” which is pretty brilliant, will make most people say, “OK, so under the bridge clause, how many of us have to eventually reach new standard, and how many of us are grandfathered in?”

        Still hoping for that flash, though.

    5. tamarack and fireweed*

      I found this extremely interesting, too, and looked up the German for it. In most cases, “Altfallregelung” — “old case rule”, as in, the rule to apply to “old” cases. “Old” is a little unidiomatic for this sense in English, though.

      “Legacy case” or something along these lines might work.

        2. JSPA*

          predating clause? (problem: depending how you look at it or say it, sounds like it’s related to “predator,” not “pre-date-er.” Or has something to do with dating.)

          “Existing employee rule” (vs “new hire rule”)?

  167. Dora/Dara*

    Hey all, if you have any advice I’d welcome it. I have a contact whom I”ve met only over email, and she does NOT get my name right. Let’s say my name is Dora Explorer, and my email is dora.explorer@company.com. In every email communication with me, she calls me Dara! A nice name, and close but no cigar. I’ve kept signing my name as “Dora,” and even once said “BTW, it’s Dora. :-) ” Yet she persists in calling me Dara. Any suggestions on how to correct her politely yet definitively are welcome.

      1. Kathleen_A*

        I agree. Just correct her pleasantly and matter-of-factly, conveying the idea that this something that you know that she of *course* wants to get right.

        1. valentine*

          Her: Hi, Dara. We’re changing our standard 70% foxglove/30% ivy order to 70% foxglove/5% ivy/25% apple blossom. Will we need to change the delivery date? Yours, Ampersand

          You: It’s Dora. [Also change the color of the O.]

          The delivery date still works.

          Best,
          Dora

    3. JSPA*

      Fair chance that her boss or some other frequent contact of hers also has it wrong, or says it so that Dora sounds like Dara, so that each time they remind her to “ask Dara,” that’s her default. Or it may be the display name she has for you on her email client, such that she doesn’t even see the actual “dora.explorer@company.com” text. I’d actually ask her to troubleshoot (whether that’s to correct it with her boss, or to correct what her email displays to her, when reading and writing emails to you). Even if she doesn’t successfully solve the problem, getting her involved in the process should make the correct usage stick. Unless it’s her mom’s or daughter’s or sister’s name, in which case, it’s probably always going to be 50/50, if that’s how her brain works. Unless you train her to call you “Dora with an O.” Up to you, if that’s worth it.

  168. Anony Mouse*

    Elbow pain: In the previous desk I had, the chair was too high for the table so I often found myself putting my head on my left elbow, holding my phone, putting weight on my left elbow at the gym.

    After googling, it seems I have tennis elbow–or similar. Anybody else have that? Any office-friendly remedies? I tried a heating pad and straightening it…the discomfort keeps coming back, sometimes radiating into my fingers (rare). Like, carpal tunnel but elbow.

    1. Amber Rose*

      A brace or compression sock will help with pain during the day.

      And then I would recommend a resistance band and doing some strengthening exercises to help it heal. At the very least, you need to keep making range of motion movements to keep it from freezing or stiffening up. Make sure nothing you do hurts, if it hurts back off, but keep moving it.

    2. Jaid*

      I changed my chair’s height at work and at home, but it helped to keep the arm straight at night. I have a long firm body pillow that I can rest my arm on when I’m lying on my side.

      There’s also elbow straps specifically for Tennis Elbow on Amazon.

    3. macaroni*

      I had tennis elbow and it’s gone now. What worked was the brace and wearing it a lot, even at work as well as at home. I also rested my hands from the aggravating activity (unfortunately it wasn’t playing tennis).

      However, my tennis elbow mostly presented as wrist weakness/pain. It wasn’t until the GP pressed down on the muscle beneath my elbow that I realized that’s where the pain actually was.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Echoing a brace! I’m having similar issues because I spent too much time leaning on my elbow and still have to correct myself all the time. It’s the worst.

      If you have insurance, go see a doctor and get some PT as well! The stretches they’ll show you can really help.

    5. juliebulie*

      I once had something very similar (tennis elbow, golf elbow, cubital tunnel syndrome? I forget which one). First thing I did was remove the arms from my chair. That helped a lot.

      But you don’t have that desk any more and you’re still having trouble. I had to avoid any pressure on my elbow and keep it almost-straight as much as possible. I did some forearm exercises with a spring-reinforced pool noodle and I even got into the habit of carrying my laptop on the other side. But the main thing was time; I don’t remember how long it took, but sad to say it wasn’t quick.

    6. Earthwalker*

      Company doc said I had that. He recommended one of those straps that fastens just below the elbow so that the fulcrum for the muscle is at the strap instead of the sore joint. He also recommended a trackball mouse instead of a traditional mouse. That solved the problem remarkably quickly.

  169. Catsaber*

    Recruiters & salary ranges

    Do recruiters often decline to give out salary ranges for positions in the early stages of discussion? I get contacted by recruiters almost weekly via Linkedin. I’m not looking for anything, unless they pay me a bunch more money and I get to telecommute (I have a pretty great job and environment now, so it would take a lot for me to leave it). I sometimes ask for details though, and I will include things like the following: technology stack, new implementation vs existing, team size, work focus, salary range. And so far every single one of them will answer my other questions and NEVER give out a salary range. The closest I get is “they are flexible with salary.”

    I state up front that I’m not actively looking but will consider positions if the salary & benefits are good. So why do they refuse to give even a range? Just looking for insight. Thanks!

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Lots of recruiters are awful. If they are refusing to give you the information you’re seeking on salary, it’s perfect timing to say “okay then I assume it’s not enough to make me want to leave my job, bye gurl.”

      Sometimes you can just throw a number at them too and say “I won’t leave for less than 1 million dollars.” and then see what they have to say [obviously given them a real number lol but you know what I mean]. “I’m only interested in moving if this job pays me 1 million dollars base, plus I require daily trips to the aquarium. Can they do this?”

      1. Catsaber*

        Update: A recruiter just gave me an actual range and also a technology stack! LOL I might actually follow up with that person. Some of them won’t even disclose the technology the company is working with (I do data warehouse development). Like it’s some big secret if you’re using Microsoft or Oracle. Most of the recruiters I’ve interacted with remind me of car salesman….I had the same issues with them when I was looking around to buy a new car recently.

  170. Jaid*

    My work fan died a horrible screechy death and is now in the trash. Thank FSM for Amazon and next day delivery. Also for my foresight in keeping a battery operated misting fan for summer use in my overhead bin.

    In other news, there was a drug bust at work. Dealing at work is stupid. Dealing in a FEDERAL building… *rolls eyes*

      1. Jaid*

        I don’t know how it started, but my source says there LEO’s posing as managers and office cleaners, and apparently someone decided to sell to his boss (asdfghh!!!!).

        There were arrests at some point and then the other day, we had a fire drill. The handicapped people were told to go to a different exit. This is because the powers-that-be wanted everyone out of the way, since they were letting drug sniffing dogs roam thru the building (!).

  171. Let's Sidebar*

    I’ve had a series of A+ interviews for a fantastic role and at the end of my in person interview last Wednesday the hiring manager indicated 1) wanting to have the hiring process completed by October and 2) their HR coordinator would be reaching out to set up the final interview with their team. All great, but I have not heard from HR yet.
    I have not mentioned this to them, but I will be traveling internationally October 10-18, so when start dates were discussed I mentioned October 21st being my ideal. Now I am worried that since we don’t have anything on the calendar yet, the interview invitation may creep into the week I’ll be gone. Would it be better to wait until they reach out and see what date they propose and hope it is doesn’t conflict, or proactively touch base to ensure my availability does not contribute to any delays in the process?
    I’m putting way too much brain space toward this and would love some input!

    1. Kathleen_A*

      You’ve still got a little time, so…why not wait until about a week before you’re leaving to get in contact with them again. Then you could just say exactly what you’ve said here: That you’re going to be traveling out of the country Oct. 10-18 and don’t want to miss an opportunity because of that.

      1. Let's Sidebar*

        Thank you. I’m not a naturally patient person and the waiting is making me so anxious! I’m so excited about this particular position that I’m jumping on every email I receive as soon as my phone pings like “please let this be the mf’ing invite already!”, nope, another promotional email from Express… :/
        I’ll hold off on sending a correspondence until next week.

  172. CatCat*

    Any advice for improving communication with someone you’re having poor communication with?

    Like, you’re both nice people, well-regarded, and don’t have this problem with anyone else, but your communication styles are just very different and don’t seem to go together well in your interactions. We both know this is a problem. The other person is much higher up the food chain. I get frustrated and defensive (and full of self doubt) talking to this person, which I know that person does not want either. The other person has committed to working in how she speaks to me. What can I do, mentally, to counter my own frustration/defensiveness? It’s like I go on “high alert” when I know I have to talk to this person, which I think is setting me up to expect to feel frustrated.

    1. Coverage Associate*

      Prepare as much as possible. Come with your questions or issues written out. Focus on that, but add one casual friendly comment or question. The weather and professional sports are the usual go tos. It will make you seem more like people than entities to each other.

  173. Quill*

    Hi Commentariat! I’m getting to use my hard won skills in making a poster in powerpoint, from all the way back during Thesis, today.

    … that and a bit of surrepitious use of GIMP to just fix this background I’ve been using…

  174. Please help!!*

    Hello! I need serious help/advice on the following situation.

    I have started my current job around a year ago. My boss is a bit of a special caracther, great as a person but always busy and has never time to discuss my project and when he does it its always a bit half assed. He did even told me once that the project i am working on is not the top of his priorities at all. So, havent been receiving much coaching (i am not a senior in my career), when i ask questions i never know what kind of attitude i get, i am almost never involved in anything, just at the end of it to do some admin stuff (i am not an admin) and he started asking me to do stuff like a personal assistant (which is not my job at all). So, this summer i spoke about this to my ex manager of my previous job and he told me to reach out to another person that they were looking for someone and that my ex manager was going there too. I was very frustrated at that point and i decided to try it so I had a call with the other person and one interview with hr, and i am believing that i will soon get an offer. However, in the past weeks my boss has started to behave more decently and include me in stuff, etc. so now i am torn on what to do. My current job is great in terms of work/life balance, great benefits etc and, coupled with the fact that i am still within a year there i feel super shitty to leave also because my boss doesnt expect it at all(i feel like a traitor, also a coward as i never confronted him on what are my issues). But if i in case i get the offer i feel i cannot refuse it as i will burn a bridge with my ex manager and the other person as well as the company itself. The industry is very small and i am afraid of potential damage. What should i do? Any advice please? Its been days i am stressing and stressing over this!

    1. Mama Bear*

      See what their offer is and think about the pros/cons of moving. Your boss may or may not stay on an upswing. You should think about the long term and where you will be happiest. If you get an offer that’s not quite what you want, either negotiate or professionally turn it down. I had someone offer me a job with a $20K pay cut that I couldn’t reasonably take. Make the decision that is right for YOU because either way you’ll be disappointing someone. I worked for someone I knew socially and leaving was not an easy conversation but in the end it was about me and not him. It’s all business. Just be professional about it.

      1. Please Help!!*

        Thanks a lot for your reply!!!! That’s true, I start to think that it was not a good idea to initiate this process with my ex manager, which in this past year that we have been working in different companies I started to know more socially. I will then have to wait for the offer then and decide at that time, I start to hope that the offer will be lower so that I will have an excuse to escape clean from this situation… when I think about what makes me happy, I feel my judgement might be clouded by the anxiety of changing job. I wish things were easier or I am making it more complicated than it should be..

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      First of all, get the idea out of your head that you can ever be a “traitor” for leaving companies. That’s not a thing! Unless you’re taking secrets to their competitors or something actually unethical. Leaving is not unethical.

      It shouldn’t burn a bridge if it takes them forever to offer you a job and you turn it down, since circumstances are always subjected to change! You asked this summer about it and now it’s fall. So they’re clearly not doing too much on their end to make things happen fast. They’re just waiting for a slot for you to open and then extend the option to you. It’s okay at that time to say “Thank you but after we spoke back in July, things have changed in my life and I’m not longer looking to switch jobs at this time.”

      However your boss has shown himself to be capable of being a flake and being someone you don’t like working for. So just because now he’s fixed himself for a minute, doesn’t mean you still don’t want to leave that messy mess behind you! So think about that before you decide that now the first storm that sent you looking to leave is passed, it doesn’t mean there won’t be another one in the future that will have the same impact or worse on you!

      You’re not a coward for not talking to him. Most people don’t approach their boss with their troubles. They just leave. That’s totally acceptable as a choice! Again, you’re not chained to any employer. They do not own you.

      Be respectful and professional. Give appropriate notice when the time is right for YOU. This is business, not personal. Always remember that!

      1. Please help!!*

        Thank you for taking the time to help me! Actually yes we initiated the talks in August but then I had my first call and hr meeting during September so it’s not going too slow and cannot use this as an excuse to bow out….

    3. Susan K*

      I think you may be looking at both situations much more personally than the other people involved. First of all, leaving your job does not make you a “traitor.” It’s true that it is not great to leave a job after less than a year, but it happens. People leave jobs all the time for all different reasons, and your employer shouldn’t take it personally. It’s not good to have a bunch of short-duration jobs on your resume, but if you have a good work history with other companies where you stayed longer, this one shouldn’t be a problem.

      Also, I doubt it will “burn a bridge” with your ex-manager, the other person, or the other company if you get an offer and decide to turn it down. You should make this decision based on what is best for you and your career, and as long as you behave professionally, don’t worry too much about what your current or prospective employer will think. They MIGHT be annoyed at first, but it is not likely that they will hold a permanent grudge or blacklist you just for leaving your job or turning down an offer.

      1. Please help!!*

        Thank you for your words and yes indeed I might be looking at it more personally that necessary… I am so afraid of taking the wrong decision and upsetting people that I feel paralyzed and constantly worried about this. Does this means that I am not ready to take this step? I just don’t want to mess with my ex manager because I love him as a manager and he has been instrumental in my career. I just wish someone could tell me what I should do :’(

    4. JSPA*

      1. At least in the US, your boss isn’t supposed to know if you’re leaving. I mean, it’s not horrible if they do, but it’s not the default.

      2. A place does not need to be bad, for you to leave it. Corollary: you leaving does not insult your old workplace.

      3. If you have a lot of short stays in a row, that can look bad. But leaving one job after a year isn’t strange.

      4. Unless you have some reason to believe that you are not good at your official job, making you even temporarily act as an admin or personal assistant, is not appropriate. (Heck, even if you’re not great at your job, it’s not appropriate.) Either your boss isn’t a very good manager, or the business really doesn’t have much work for you, or both. Either way, I’m not sure what staying there does to help you (or help your boss).

      5. I hope you’ll take this as intended, and I only add it because you say you don’t get much direction, and you’d welcome it. That “wall of text” post was hard to read. If you think in terms of paragraphs, not “chewing on a stream of anxiety,” you may find it easier to make a list or chart. That would be, “real reasons I should go,” “fake reasons that I feel I should go,” “real reasons I should stay,” and “fake reasons I feel I should stay.”

      6. important question, not addressed, but very reasonable to ask, before accepting a job: do you believe that new company will not have work/life balance and benefits?

      7. Do you feel comfortable that you are being hired as a benefit to the new company, or will you somehow convince yourself that you’re only there as a favor from an ex-supervisor? Make sure, whether you stay or go, that you feel comfortable with the idea that you’re not there because someone’s doing you a favor. Companies don’t do favors; they hire the people they need. And if they get people they don’t need, they give guidance, give a warning, put them on a PIP, or suggest that they look elsewhere; they don’t give them weird duties that are way, way outside of their proper job description. Believe in yourself a bit more, please!

  175. expanded but not promoted*

    In almost 5 years at my company I’ve been promoted once (about a year ago). They had been dangling the promotion for 2 years before it happened. However, I consistently get decent bonuses, and two years in a row I’ve received raises that are in line with what I would have gotten for a promotion because my (awesome) boss made a case that my role has been expanded.

    I am generally happy-ish here and don’t need to work insane hours, etc.

    However, one former colleague of mine left this company a year ago at my level and has been promoted twice since. I’m feeling a little bit jealous and unrecognized at my company that is slow to promote. Former coworker is great and I’m not surprised that she’s done well.

    Maybe the issue is that I’m struggling because I’m comparing my trajectory to hers and feeling like I come up short. But on the other hand, I enjoy a work balance that she doesn’t for approximately the same pay. What I’m struggling with is: lack of recognition, a title that I don’t feel matches what I really do, and boredom in my role that I feel I’ve mostly outgrown. My boss thinks I have a great future at this company but I can’t help but feel like that would be more apparent after 5 years? I’ve had the conversation with her and she just says the company is really slow to promote.

    Really it feels like a tradeoff. Do I want to go to a competitor that might be faster at promoting but doing significantly more work without a pay increase that reflects that extra work? Does staying here make me look complacent and like I can only do this specific role? Is the grass greener at the office down the street?

    I guess I’m just not sure at what point I should decide whether I should try to see what else is out there.

    1. Shiny Onix*

      FWIW I think being promoted twice in a year at a new company is wildly rare and quite possibly means she was massively undervalued in the first role she took there – especially as you say she’s (still?) on the same pay as you. I know it’s hard to untangle your feelings about her from the equation, but I think you need to stay or leave on the merits of your own position, not what’s going on with her.

    2. voyager1*

      You sound like you have a great boss who is looking out for you. I probably would stay. My biggest concern would be trading a known good boss for a unknown unknown.

      Stop comparing yourself to your friend though.

    3. Mama Bear*

      Promotions are often but not always a good thing/the right thing. My husband decided not to seek a higher promotion because it would be insane hours for not much more pay. He prefers his work/life balance. If you’re happy, then be happy for her but don’t feel like her promotions downgrade you in any way. If the crux of it is lack of recognition, talk to your boss about it.

  176. Jane*

    Our department’s intern informed me that she was “not comfortable” asking her supervisor (a senior member of my department) questions, because it seems to make him angry. She also confided that she couldn’t really follow what he was talking about and felt she couldn’t do the tasks he assigned.

    Now, this guy is a total incompetent a$$ and everyone else in my department knows it except, apparently, my boss. I feel terrible that the intern is subject to be paired with a guy she is afraid of and uncomfortable with, but I’m not sure if my gut reaction of “I should tell my boss” is being clouded by the fact that I hate this guy and think he is an idiot.

    I told the intern we were all happy to answer questions, that is why we were here, and I also went over with her the stuff she didn’t understand. I’m sure the reason why her supervisor couldn’t explain things well is because he himself has a poor grasp of our work, but I tried my best not to let on to the intern that that was my opinion, because I didn’t want to seem unprofessional.

    I expect that this intern will be coming to me more for help than she will with her supervisor. She told me that she was more comfortable talking to me and that I explained things more clearly. Her supervisor has a tendency to get defensive and has already asked me once why I was talking to the intern. I’m sure he’d rather I refer her to him for questions.

    Do I tell my boss (who is also the supervisor’s boss)? I’m not sure exactly what I’d say. The reason the a$$ is assigned to supervise the intern is because he is the most senior member of my team and is being given this “opportunity” to gain management experience.

    1. WellRed*

      Yes, you have to say something! We see letters here all the time from seasoned professionals who are afraid to speak up. Can you imagine what it took for the intern to speak up? That should highlight for you how serious the problem is. I’d mention what the intern said, that she’s coming to you for help, that you are concerned about her getting the most out of her internship and how would boss like to handle it.

    2. macaroni*

      I think you need to tell your boss, since the coworker was assigned to supervisor the intern and is doing a terrible job and the intern doesn’t feel comfortable saying anything.

      I do think also you should tell the intern it’s not her fault and that this guy is like this. It’s really easy when new in a space to internalize all problems as being your own fault, and especially with a man who is being abrasive, it can be easy to fall into patterns of “I don’t understand because I’m stupid, not because he can’t explain it”. I think it would be really great for the intern if you can take to the side and tell her that she’s not the problem, he is.

      Also, since she’s being used as an opportunity for the coworker to gain experience, I hope that at the end of the internship, she is given a real, safe chance to explain her feelings on the whole matter, in a way that won’t impact her future reference. The fact that she’s afraid of him is a _problem_. And it’s a problem with solutions, up to and including getting her a different supervisor for the remainder of the internship.

    3. Jane*

      You both make good points, and I’m glad at least I’m not overreacting.

      I guess part of it is that I’m not sure exactly what *could* be done about it. There’s no way that the a-hole is going to be removed from being her supervisor, and the problem is really his personality and ability, which can’t be changed. In fact, there was a complaint made a few months ago about him and the way he was interacting with some coworkers (including myself, although I did not file the complaint), and while my boss did take it seriously at face value, at the end of the day, all that happened was she made him give a public apology (which was a non-apology, really, more like “I’m sorry you were offended” kind of apology) and considered it dealt with. I’m worried that if I tell her what the intern said to me, she’ll tell the supervisor, who will say to the intern “I heard I made you feel uncomfortable and like you couldn’t ask me questions. You shouldn’t feel that way!” but won’t change his actual behavior. I’m not sure he can…it’s just the way he is.

      The whole point of even hiring the intern was for him to manage her, so…that’s not going to change. And if I say something, the intern will definitely know that I told everyone what she said, and I’m not sure if she thinks she was telling me something in confidence.

      Maybe I will speak to her and let her know that I can raise this with my boss if she wants me to, and that she isn’t the only one who he makes feel that way and that it’s not her, it’s him. If she says it’s OK for me to let my boss know about her experience, I will do so.

      1. macaroni*

        I’m worried that if I tell her what the intern said to me, she’ll tell the supervisor, who will say to the intern “I heard I made you feel uncomfortable and like you couldn’t ask me questions. You shouldn’t feel that way!” but won’t change his actual behavior.

        And if this happens, you no longer have a coworker problem… you have a boss problem.

        But yeah, talking to the intern about next step options and seeing what she thinks would be good.

        But I do want to highlight, and probably jump on the highlight is: the intern will eventually leave when the internship is over. What’s gonna happen to the next intern? If this coworker is promoted to a manager, what’s gonna happen to his direct reports? Him just “being the way he is” isn’t good enough if he’s going to manage human beings. If you need to wait until the intern leaves to bring it up, I understand, but this needs to be brought up and him sent to management classes or some other kind of training, because if it’s “just the way he is”, then he won’t ever change and this will continue happening.

  177. NewBoss*

    I’m interested in hearing from people who have at some point had direct reports who just didn’t seem to like you for no known reason…or who were rude, disrespectful, insubordinate, etc. How did you win their trust and turn their attitudes around – if you did? If not, how did you know when it was finally time to cut them loose?

    1. WellRed*

      I think it’s important to remember that part of doing a job is to be able to do it pleasantly and get along with coworkers above and below you. If they are otherwise performing the job, you could see if they warm up to you. It might require a conversation (Are they like this with others? Or their previous boss? Ask around!). But if not, I’d consider planning to transition them out. Work is challenging enough with dealing with childish BS. Plus, you don’t want other direct reports to see you treated this way.

    2. 1234*

      I had a new colleague who mentioned that a direct report at her previous role was rude/unhelpful because Direct Report thought they were due for a promotion and New Colleague was hired instead. Any chance your situation is something similar?

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You talk to them and you tell them to correct their behavior.

      Just like if the person was being rude and disrespectful to their peer, you should step in and say “we don’t speak to each other like that here, we need you to adjust your attitude.” They can’t talk to anyone, above or below them in that way.

      They get spoken to like an adult who knows they are doing something wrong and need to fix it.

      You manage them. They can hate you until the cows come home, that’s their own right. But they can’t be rude or disrespectful let alone insubordinate.

    4. Parenthetically*

      I don’t think it’s about winning their trust, I think it’s about managing them. They need to be clearly, plainly told that rudeness, disrespect, and insubordination (!!) are not okay ways to behave with coworkers or supervisors, and that, starting immediately, you expect them to interact with all of their colleagues and managers with politeness and professionalism — and give examples of both, if you like, but I think with some people it can sabotage your overall intent to get too specific. If you’re new, as your name suggests,, you could start with something like, “Fergus, I think we’ve gotten off on the wrong foot here. It’s vital to your success in this role moving forward to treat supervisors and coworkers with cordiality and professionalism. Instead, what I’ve seen from you is (several recent examples). Can you offer any kind of explanation or reasoning for that?” (I’m only adding this because maybe Fergus has just had a really shite month or two and is going to take this chance to say so and abjectly apologize for being a dick.) “Moving forward, I need you to behave with professionalism in the way you speak with me and others in the office. Can you agree to that?”

      This gives you pretty clear benchmarks going forward. If the behavior continues, you can give him reminders in the moment — “Fergus, this is the kind of thing we spoke about on Monday. I need you to be cordial and professional in all of our interactions. Can you agree to that?” And then if the behavior continues, you can escalate. “Fergus, you are not going to be able to continue in this role without being polite and professional in interactions with myself, other managers, and other coworkers. You are continuing to (examples of rude, insubordinate behavior) despite prior warnings. You need to know that this is just as serious a performance issue as if you were failing to meet deadlines or leaving work for hours at a time, and I will be handling it accordingly.” Then place him on a PIP or fire him.

      Alternatively, just fire him. Nobody needs a rude, insubordinate person working for them.

  178. Shiny Onix*

    It’s been a busy few weeks.
    I interviewed for but did not get a team lead role.
    I asked a really senior member of staff of I could meet her for a coffee to pick her brains about how she’s been successful while also being a parent (she had spoken to one of our staff networks about this and also about supporting people so it was a bit cheeky but not completely out of the blue). She said yes as long as her diary allows next time she’s in my location.
    I am thinking about standing for nomination for the LGBT+ network to get some different skills (and also clearly to represent my LGBT+ community. But I’ve only realised I’m LGBT+ (B, fwiw) very recently. You need to be LGBT+ to stand. Does this sound like a good/bad/other idea?

    1. Person from the Resume*

      There’s nothing wrong with realizing later in life that you’re queer. I have friends that did so in their 30s. And I didn’t understand myself until after 40.

      My only concern with you standing for nomination now is that since you’ve realized, how much have you plugged into the LGBT+ community? If you’re meant to represent them, I would want to know that you have contacts and a network in the LGBT+ community so you’re able to represent them well.

      1. Shiny Onix*

        Yeah that’s my concern. I don’t know if my lived experience is Enough for this role, yet. I’m going to speak to one of the current representatives and she what she thinks. Thank you!

        1. Meels*

          Hey, FWIW, I wouldn’t worry about “lived experience” that much, if by that you mean relationships, dating, etc. A person can define themselves as queer without any experience in that – it’s (pardon the cliche!) what’s inside that counts. But as Person from the Resume says, being tapped into your local networks might be useful. I’m a bi woman who set my work LGBT network, but my co-host is straight – I didn’t realise she wasn’t queer because she was so positive and supportive about setting up the network and encouraging people to join, and in the end she has a great understanding of what we need to offer to encourage people to be their selves in the office. It might be a more unusual situation but it shows that “lived experience” isn’t everything!

          1. Shiny Onix*

            It’s a prerequisite in this network that the leaders identify as LGBT+. I think I need to talk to them about it before I can decide whether or not standing is right for both me and, potentially, the network. Thank you!

  179. Panda panda panda*

    My mom and I work in the same industry and I don’t know how to talk about this to people without it sounding like I’m getting some kind of nepotism or like I’m a child.

    She isn’t in some kind of influential or senior role that can influence anyone unfairly, she came into this industry around the same time that I graduated college so we’re more like peers than anything. She also has a totally different line of work— let’s say she does corporate training on the area of teapot use she worked in before coming to this business, I’m a teapot design analyst. Adjacent, and because of her kind of work her network is huge while mine is small, but not something where she can put in a word for me somewhere and magic will happen. Because of her network, though, I regularly have connections to people I want to meet about potential jobs through her, or she’ll put me in touch with someone she knows who has told her they’re hiring for something I’d be interested in.

    I don’t know how to talk about this to people? For starters, I feel incredibly weird sending someone a message (at their invitation) that says “my mom told me you wanted to have coffee.” Then often when people ask how I know someone, I don’t like saying I met them because of my mom. That one I can brush off as a generic mutual connection, but that feels weirdly evasive sometimes, and it doesn’t work in the first scenario where I’m trying to give the person context about why I’m contacting them. Referring to her by name feels weird since they all already know she’s my mother. What’s the right way to talk about this without making myself look bad?

    1. Mama Bear*

      We frequently hire interns that are children of employees. They don’t run around with My Dad Works Here in sharpie on their heads, but if someone said, “Diana Smith said my skills might help your project, do you have time to talk about it?” I wouldn’t think it was weird, even if I knew Diana was their mom. If they ask, be upfront that she’s your mom, but that you are working on expanding your own professional contacts/network/interests/skills. I once went to school with a girl whose mom was our science teacher. She was the only science teacher for that grade and the way they worked it was that in class she was Ms. Smith, but outside of class she was Mom.

      1. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

        Ditto. I can understand how it can be weird but just get used to calling her by her first name.

    2. Shiny Onix*

      I really think you’re overthinking this :) In a professional context, your mum is (eg) “Rose Smith the trainer”. If you’re in the same office you would call her by her name in meetings, rather than mum. All you need to do is replace “my mum” with “Rose Smith”. Yes they all know she’s your mum but that’s still how it works in a professional context -and even though they know, they’re probably not consciously aware of it on a daily basis. I worked in an office my dad was based in for a few months, it’s weird but you get used to it, and the more you do it the less weird it feels.

      For starters, I feel incredibly weird sending someone a message (at their invitation) that says “my mom told me you wanted to have coffee.”
      “Hi Violet! Rose mentioned that you were interested in meeting me for a coffee to discuss x. When’s good for you?”

      For people asking how you know someone, “Rose put us in touch”.

      Simples :)

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Literally just take the “my mom” part out of the equation and say “Dorthy Zbornak gave me your contact information.” If they want to know how you know her, “She’s one of my colleagues.” because she is. She’s your colleague AND your mom =)

      It’s like if Nancy in Accounting hooked you up. Say that. Don’t say “Nancy in accounting. Who is also my mom.”

      1. tamarack and fireweed*

        Right, and also… you can’t expect everyone to know (or even if they sorta-once-knew, keep actively at the forefront of their minds) that she is your mom! I don’t have any intergenerational family binomes at my workplace, but I’m quite aware that several of my co-workers refer to their relatives by their names in professional settings (David said X…, Ken is giving a talk about Y…, Sonya is on fieldwork with Z…) when in social settings they’d have referred to their husband, brother, and wife respectively. Maybe.

        Now it’s true that they *call* these people by their names to their faces, but that’s secondary. Refer to your mother exactly like you would if she wasn’t related to you. “Rose” if it’s clear who. “Rose from teapot training” maybe. Or “Rose Rosewood, department 4B” if that’s more the style.

        If you’re both in the same room you can still call her mom!

  180. Haunted by Hyperemesis*

    I started a new job a few months ago and almost immediately got pregnant. In the past two months I’ve been to the ER twice for extreme dehydration and been hospitalized once for a few days. Now at home I have a PICC line (semi-permanent IV) and while I’m taking as much anti-nausea as I’m allowed, I am still sick a lot. I don’t eat, I barely drink water.

    Through this, my new company has been FANTASTIC. They’ve been allowing me flex time, I’m working from home, and my boss checks in with me every day to see what I can handle and what he needs to take off my plate. Even the CEO emailed me to say that whatever I need, they’ll help me get it.

    This is all amazing, but now I feel so guilty! I’m used to being a top performer and now I feel like I’m barely scraping by. How do I deal with the guilt of feeling like I’m taking advantage and the looming anxiety that eventually they’ll decide I’m just not worth the trouble?

    1. Ladylike*

      Your condition is temporary, and it sounds like you’re such a catch that they’re willing to support you through it. You’re worth their effort! I’m pretty transparent with my managers – always have been – and it would ease my mind, personally, to talk to my boss about feeling guilty and solicit his/her feedback. It might give you a lot of relief to hear your boss reassure you.

      Also, I’m so sorry you’re so sick!! That sounds truly awful. I hope you start feeling better and your little one remains healthy, too.

    2. Mama Bear*

      Don’t feel guilty that they are helping. I think if they felt you weren’t worth the trouble you’d know by now. Not every CEO will check on employees personally. Take care of your health and remind yourself this is temporary.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Guilt is normal. We experience it for a reason. Usually for self preservation reasons! It’s okay to feel that way but in reality, the best thing to do is to remind yourself how you’d react if this was a coworker and not you. A decent person, will treat a person who is experiencing medical difficulties well and want the best for them. It’s okay to be on the receiving end of this care and compassion! It is hard when these roles reverse like this though. I’m the exact same way, I happily take care of others but feel awful when people return the “favor”. It’s just how we’re wired.

      I hope you feel better. Rough pregnancies are awful to experience and since it’s not just about you, there’s a baby involved, it makes it even that much more awful to deal with. You’re also pumped full of hormones right now and that will also make you more emotional since you’re body is in in such distress! You may want to talk to a counselor as well, that can help you work through the emotional side of things.

    4. Fikly*

      I started a new job 7 months ago. 5 months in I got a concussion and had to take 7 weeks of medical leave.

      I too, felt guilty and like I was letting them down, even though they’ve been amazing.

      Crap like this happens. It happens to new employees, it happens to old employees. Even if you were planning on being pregnant (which you are allowed to do at any point!) you could not possibly predict that your health, and thus ability to work, would be so impacted. It’s not your fault.

      And can you have a conversation with your manager? Mine actually said to me (unprompted) do not worry, you will have a job when this is over. It was immensely reassuring.

      1. Natalie*

        Yep, my brother had a weird back emergency literally the first day of a new job, his first job after finishing his college program. I think he ended up being out for two or three weeks from a job he hadn’t even started. But he started when he was better and everything was fine.

        People get sick. Normal, non-jackass-types, can roll with it.

    5. Dr. Anonymous*

      Think of yourself as having evidence that you found a company that has a healthy corporate culture and cares about its employees. They don’t expect top performance from someone who’s working while puking so much they’re on a PICC. They know eventually you’re going to stop puking.

      One of my childhood friends was diagnosed with breast cancer just as she got a job offer. She called to withdraw and the head of the firm asked her to work for them anyway. He had had cancer himself and said he’d be a hypocrite if he let the company take care of him and then let her go. They put her on light duty until after chemo and then started using all her skills as she felt up to it. She worked her a$$ off for them and they stood by her as well.

      Just let them help you and contribute more when you are able. Let them know how grateful you are to have the support. Bask in the goodness of humanity. And enjoy your baby!

  181. Fed up anon*

    Last week my manager’s husband publicly filed for divorce and she was “outed” as having an affair with someone that works here [there is no reporting relationship and it was consensual]. She is pregnant and according to her husband he is not the father. He posted on social media after he left her. Apparently he will only communicate with her via his solicitor and not directly. The other man is single and my manager has already moved in with him and they are informally engaged now. It’s all anyone is talking about and I am sick of hearing about it but the gossip won’t stop and my manager is too wrapped up in things to notice or care. No one is engaging me about it anymore because I made it clear I don’t care but everyone else is talking about it and I can’t escape it. It doesn’t help that my manager and the other man are wrapped up in being the happy family/expecting parents. They aren’t doing anything inappropriate so no one could do anything anyway. The other day I was trapped on the tube with others from my workplace sitting nearby and I couldn’t escape the gossip there either. I can’t wait for the gossip to die down.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Yuck, how uncomfortable. I would hate hearing all that gossip too, just out in the open without any regard to the fact it’s not just between the gossipers. Just. Yuck. Thankfully it does tend to die down, it’s just the newest juiciest nonsense for people to babble to each other about.

  182. Twiddling Thy Thumbs*

    I literally have nothing to do multiple times a day, for 10-40 min periods. Anyone in a similar situation? What do you do during the idle period?

    My work is dependent on clients sending their files for processing so once I’m done with the batch, I just wait for more. If there’s nothing to process, I use the company computer to read news articles and use my phone for entertainment (messaging, viewing more private/entertaining articles – but no watching media like shows or videos).

    The director did mention that there would be downtime but I didn’t realize it’d be this excessive. I’ve asked for more work or if I could help with anything else but I’ve been told that theres nothing for me. I talked to the person in this role previously, and she admitted to spending a lot of her time just reading wikipedia articles…

    My only concern is that the director (our team consists of me, manager, and director) comes over to my and my supervisor’s desk to talk to us about work or whatever is on his mind, and I feel very self-concious about having my phone out. Not sure what I can really do to keep myself busy if there’s really nothing else?

    1. sacados*

      There may not be anything else, but I think you would feel a lot better if it was all out in the open. You said you asked for more work, but maybe try phrasing it like “Is there anything in particular you would like me to be doing during the downtime / How would you like me to handle it?”
      That may very well result in your manager telling you it’s fine to mess around on your phone/computer/do whatever you want– in which case you at least don’t have to feel bad about it.
      You could even ask your manager specifically about it– how you feel as if it looks bad when the director comes over to ask a question and you’re on your phone, you wonder if it’s giving the director a bad impression, and does Manager think this is something you should be concerned/careful about

    3. WellRed*

      Seconding the advice given but wanted to chime and point out that they do need you available to process client files so even though you feel you are doing nothing, they are paying you to be available and ready to go.

    4. Rick Tq*

      You are engaged to wait, I’d think anything within your company’s code of conduct/computer use would be fine. Perhaps start learning a new language or computer skill?

      Basically, anything you can pause when client files hit your desk should be OK with your manager.

  183. Kay*

    My boss / mentor has been implicated in several sexual harassment cases. Originally she was just put on paid leave while the firm investigated but now a colleague has brought proof forward (this colleague publicly accused her and has made no secret about it) and whatever the proof was, it was serious enough that the firm not only fired her but alerted the police and they are now investigating too. She has been implicated by a few colleagues and there are also now allegations coming out of the last firm she was employed at. Lawsuits are pending now too. This is selfish of me because compared to what her victims went through it is nothing but I am devastated. She took me under her wings when I was hired on and she has been my mentor. This is my first post-college job. She never once harassed me and I have been wracking my brain trying to think of any time I saw her harass anyone and I cannot recall. I feel stupid for being taken in by her and for not seeing the signs. Should I be worried about my own job and reputation? I am afraid of somehow being implicated even though I never harassed anyone. I was close to her and it was known she was my mentor. I am torn if I should start looking at other firms or not. I have been here for 10 months now if it makes any difference.

    1. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Sexual harassment can be a power move. She knew what she was doing, she knew whom to do it to, and she knew when and where she’d be able to do it to get the best result for herself. She also knew exactly when she wouldn’t be able to do it: for example, with her mentee present.

      I wouldn’t worry about your own reputation and job. If it were me, I’d keep a phrase in my back pocket along the lines of, “Wow, her situation was wild. I had a good [or] professionally fruitful mentor-mentee relationship with her and I regret that she spoiled it [or] I regret that this case has spoiled it.” Then swing into a change of topic, like “Right now I’m excited to be working at so and so” or “My current work doing such and such sure is keeping me busy.” Or even “How ’bout them sports team?”

    3. Asenath*

      It’s always devastating to discover someone in your life wasn’t the kind of person you thought they were, and many, many people involved in crimes or scandals have innocent friends and relatives who are devastated by their actions. It’s natural for you to react as you have – although you shouldn’t call yourself “stupid” for not seeing this side of your boss. None of us really know other people or can expect to be aware of everything they do. As for your job – I’d ride it out for a while, but remain open to the idea of job-hunting in a few months’ time if it looks like some of the managers are treating you differently from other workers because of your connection to your former boss.

  184. Also Known As*

    (Not exactly a regular, but using an alias for this just in case.)

    Next Wednesday my company is having a company-wide meeting — I’ve been calling it The Event.

    For The Event, we have to be down to a local convention center by 7 AM. They are providing buses, but even I (who live close by) am going to have to get up an hour early to make it to work on time to take the bus. Then we spend the morning (minus breakfast and lunch) listening to speeches and doing vaguely defined classes on ‘equity.’

    Then after lunch we spend the afternoon doing, ironically, charitable work. (Ironically because, since we’re being paid for a regular work day, it isn’t actually charity on our parts.)

    We have no choice about whether to attend The Event, and the only folks offered options for the charitable work are those who work from home out of state, who can spend 8 hours doing something locally — but they WILL spend the day doing charitable work.

    (me, I donate money and give blood, not time; we should all feel free to donate in our ways.)

    The consensus here at the workplace — unanimous among the couple of dozen workers, including some folks in management — is that this is a bad idea, that forced charity isn’t charity, that this is basically a way for management to make itself look good (they already have an excellent reputation in the community anyway, and justly so; there’s nothing remotely shady about them) and that the logistics of this thing are sure to be a debacle.

    (The company is full of decent, well-intentioned people, but major changes and major events rarely go off particularly smoothly. As an example, we were scheduled to pick up our t-shirts last Friday, and not only were they out of several sizes — including mine, which means I’ll have to change on the day of The Event, stuffing my current shirt into a lunchbox, I guess — they didn’t even bother coming to our building though they were scheduled to; I and several other folks had to hike over and pick up the shirts ourselves. That, we consider to be just a prologue.)

    They have something asking for preliminary feedback, with guarantees of anonymity; how much do you think they’ll pay attention to folks telling them it is, or was if you tell them afterwards, a bad idea executed poorly? I will, of course, phrase things civilly if and when I do. I don’t know if I need more advice than that, but I DID need to vent. so thank you.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I think that when solicited for feedback, barring you thinking it will negatively impact you if they don’t keep it anonymous, you should always give truthful feedback. Some places really do take it to heart and will appreciate the honesty! It’s worth a shot if it’s at no harm to you or others. Sometimes people with great intentions need to be told that they’re coming off wrong and should rethink their choices, most decent people won’t get mad when they find out that people aren’t happy with how things are being done.

      This is all built to make the company look good. In reality, you the workers, aren’t the ones doing the charity work. Your company is just loaning you out for their own image. Just like when my boss would “loan” me out to his friends who needed someone to do their books for them while they were between bookkeepers. He’d be all “Stay clocked in, go help Fred down at the cabinet shop get his payroll processed!”

    2. Koala dreams*

      I think it’s great that the company pays you to do charitable work. That way it’s the company that gives your work away, as opposed to you giving your pay away, as in those workplace donations we read about. Too bad it’s so badly organized. The super early morning, the speeches and classes and then the charity will mean a lot of people are going to be very tired when they get into the afternoon.

      The best suggestion I’ve read about workplace charity was a case study in school. The company let people volunteer for a nonprofit of their choice on paid work time, something like one or two hours a week. The employees could choose the nonprofit and when to do the volunteering, and as long as it wasn’t interfering with their regular work it was allowed. It was a minority of employees that participated of course, but those who did was happy about it.

    3. WellRed*

      You are being paid but the company is donating your time so yes, it’s charitable. It sounds annoying but I am unclear on what you most take issue with? Is it the disruption to your day? Is it the nature of the charity work? I’d personally like to be paid to do something for others for an afternoon unless it was like, digging ditches? I guess with regard to the feedback you give, really zero in for yourself what it is that is a bad idea and what about it was poorly executed?

      1. Also Known As*

        It’s certainly not charity on my part, then, no matter how the company tries to dress it up “you’re doing good”; it’s just hours on the clock. And if you’d like to get paid to something for others for an afternoon, then good. (No sarcasm is intended.) this sounds like something you’d enjoy.

        Me, there’s a reason I work in an office, primarily in a cubicle, where I have at least some control of whether I’m working with others, and choose to do my charity by donating money and giving blood. This is not something I’d enjoy, and it’s not something most of the people in the company will enjoy, if my sample is any indication, and it’s screwing with our schedule, and that really sticks folks who take care of schoolage kids (I don’t, so my inconvenience is I have to get up at 5:30.).

        The charities themselves, note, aren’t remotely problematic, they’re just not the kind of charities I typically support.

        1. Sam*

          Of course it’s not charity on your part – it’s charity on the company’s part, and you’re being paid to work for the company. Like if a venue decides to rent for more cheaply to a charitable group – it’s not like the employees aren’t getting paid, but it’s still a charitable act.

          It sounds like your problem is actually with the schedule, and you’re getting all tangled up in some sort of not-my-job-description type battle.

          1. valentine*

            I have to get up at 5:30.
            Is the shuttle mandatory? Because if these fools wouldn’t reimburse, it’d be worth cab fare to me to keep the hour of sleep and have the option to leave whenever, without having to go back to work to get your car.

            What happens if you become ill enough to leave at some point or if you call out sick that day?

        2. WellRed*

          So these points can be part of your feedback. They are all perfectly valid. Just drop the whole “ it’s not charity” vent which is off track and muddying your valid points.

    4. Asenath*

      Well, I wouldn’t like anything about this, but I suspect that they may not be open to negative feedback, especially in advance when it’s all set up. I mean, my employer can (and has) assigned me to attend days of talks and presentations – I suppose it comes under “other related duties” – and I’ve never found them a good use of time. I’d be really annoyed at being assigned to do work for their choice of charity – even if it was one I personally supported. I keep my charitable activities personal and private. But, again “other related duties”, I suppose. They’re paying me for my time, and deciding how they want to use my time. My time is not usually assigned to public relations activities disguised as charity, or even genuine charitable work. I prefer my usual duties.

    5. Dr. Anonymous*

      I’d suggest they ought to provide breakfast and/or condense the lectures so they can have a normal start time because of the complexity for people with families and the very early start for people with long commutes. They probably haven’t thought this part through and since it sounds like they’re used to operating by the seat of their pants, they can probably change it…although breakfast will probably be takeout bagels and coffee with no napkins.

  185. MsChanandlerBong*

    I invited a candidate to schedule a phone interview with me, but he keeps putting a fake name on my calendar. The only reason I was able to figure out his real name is because I looked at his area code, and he’s the only one from that city I have asked to schedule a call with me this week; otherwise, I’d have no idea who it even was. I canceled the call, and he has now scheduled a second call with the same fake name (and it’s not even a person’s name; he’s literally writing a string of random words as his “name”). Am I being unreasonable in thinking that if he can’t be bothered to take the call seriously and use his real name, then I should just reject his application? If I reject, should I tell him it’s because of his scheduling shenanigans, or should I just reject and leave it be?

    1. !*

      Maybe you can ask him first why his name keeps being added to your calendar as (string of random words)? Depending on his answer you can then decide to proceed or not.

    2. Kendra*

      Maybe give him one chance to explain what’s going on? It could be a technology issue (autocorrect can be evil), or something else along those lines. I’d give him a call or email and say, “Hey, just checking on something! I have this thing on my calendar and I’m trying to figure out who it’s from; was this you?” And then see what he says. If you get the sense that he’s doing it on purpose for some reason, I think it’s fine to tell him, “thanks, but no thanks!” and scratch him off the interview list (who has the time to deal with that?). If it was some type of glitch, though, it’d be a shame to miss out on a good candidate because their phone was giving them grief.

      1. Parenthetically*

        My immediate first thought was that this is the guy’s second email account and he forgot that years ago he set StringOfRandomWords as his “name” on the account, and he doesn’t even realize what’s happening.

    3. Parenthetically*

      Is there a reason you can’t just say, “Hey, your name keeps coming up as ‘Record Couch Phone Dog Shipping Container’ in my calendar, what’s up with that? Can you use your actual name, please, so I can have a clear record of who is on my schedule?”

      1. Mama Bear*

        Agreed. I’m thinking there’s a setting he doesn’t know about. If he’s doing it on purpose, that’s different.

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      That is soooo weird. Is there are any reason this would be automated somehow and not something he writes in manually? I feel like there has to be some explanation. How did you get in touch with him the first time? Any way to email him and say, “Meetings keep showing up on my calendar with an area code from your city but some random name– is that you? If it is, you might want to check how your name gets entered!” Something like that. I mean, it strikes me as strange enough that I would assume “glitch” first.

      Of course, if he gets back to you with some stupid explanation of how it’s a joke, then I’d consider rejecting him for not taking seriously. But for now, try to solve the mystery.

    5. snack_attack*

      Is the name different every time? I am almost wondering if it is some sort of embedded part of his email that he doesn’t realize. For example, maybe when he set up his email he set up his name on the account as something random rather than using his real name, and now doesn’t realize that when he accepts meetings via his email it uses that name he selected for the account years ago. I would bring it to his attention; I had a issue where I had a status (or something?) on my email that I must have done like 10 years ago that said “I do what I want”. Thankfully my boyfriend noticed it because I was mortified that any contact with recruiters or hiring managers might have seen that!

      1. MsChanandlerBong*

        You have to enter your name, email, and phone number to schedule the appt. The name he’s using is nounanvowel adverbanjunct–it’s not a common phrase that might have been autofilled. The email is nounanvowel@domain.com, which does not match the email he put in his application. I actually just realized that I am not sure if it’s the person I think it is because the person listed Chicago on his resume, but the area code in the appt. info is for Omaha, NE. Now I am not sure if it’s even who I thought it was.

          1. valentine*

            Couldn’t it be spam? Is there an email invite or can people just use an online form? Do they necessarily know it’s going on your calendar as-is, versus Position Candidate Interviews?

  186. NeonDreams*

    I’m back because I got a rejection email for one of the positions I applied for recently. Been crying silently at my desk for the past 20 minutes.

    1. snack_attack*

      Sounds like there is a deeper issue here…what’s going on with your current job or your job search?

      1. NeonDreams*

        I’ve been in my current customer service job for 5 years and I’m completely burnt out. But I can’t afford to quit or move financially. I’ve been applying to different positions in the company this year and all of them have been rejected. My town is mostly retail and hard labor kind jobs. Neither of which I’m interested in. I’ve been looking all year for positions here and in other companies. I have a federal interview I’m waiting to hear back from. It’s not the end of the world, but I’m sorely disappointed.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Disregard the idea that there’s a deeper issue going on. Rejection is hard, especially when it’s constant like in a job search situation. You will find something, I’m so sorry that it’s taking so long.

  187. Rikki Tikki Tarantula*

    This week I learned and important lesson: no matter how much work you’re trying to get on your schedule, do not take on a client who’s clearly delusional.

    I’m a full-time freelance whose husband is on disability so I’ve been getting in as much work as I can, but this is the one time I should have listened to my gut and said, “I’ll pass.” Luckily, I was able to do a small project at first and it was enough for me to say, “We’re not a good fit.”

  188. Emma*

    I hope you can help me.
    My boss has been fighting to have me promoted for the past 1,5 years. We have gone through a number of organisational changes that have been used as an excuse to wait with my promotion. Now finally, my boss was told by grand boss that my promotion would get announced in October. I was really happy.

    Today, I am on a call with grand boss who asks me if I would prefer Teapot maker as a new title instead of my current Regional porcelain manager. Turns out my promotion is not a promotion, it is a change in title. I work for the teapot department but my title sounds like I would belong to the porcelain group. Teapot maker is the most junior of all teapot titles. I have been here for 3 years and consider(ed) myself more senior than the teapot makers.

    Grand boss says he is fine with whatever I decide: a title change to reflect my teapot abilities or staying porcelain manager.

    I am so disappointed and feel ashamed to think I was finally up for my promotion. I want to discuss with grand boss and ask about my future and if he sees any growth opportunities for me.

    How should I phrase it?

    My boss and I had been planning for me to take over her role as Porcelain Director next year when she retires, but that won’t be happening.

    Should I just search for another job and realise I wasted 3 years in this company?

    1. WellRed*

      Start looking for another job but don’t consider your three years wasted. It’s experience to get you another job where you’re appreciated.

      1. NotAPirate*

        Echoing this. 3 years experience and good reference from your Boss isnt wasted, that’s useful! 3 years looks really good too, that’s more than standard and shows dedication, plus it segues into the why did you leave (wanted more upward mobility) discussion where you can find out more about potential new company’s options.

        1. Emma*

          You are so nice, both of you. I need to get a grip of myself and not let this drag me down.

          I took a lateral step (was a porcelain manager there too) into this position from a job I loved because I thought this job had more growth opportunities. A total mistake.

          I am actually a bit worried about being in the same position for 3 years without growing/getting promoted. It is a pretty clear signal that the company doesn’t think you are good enough.

          But as you say, I can get a decent reference out of my boss and try to find a better position elsewhere. Will be more positive tomorrow!

          Thanks!

          2. Dr. Anonymous*

            Come up with the name of the title that describes your current duties and will look nice on your CV and ask for that title. It costs them nothing. Then use it to job hunt and run away.

  189. QueenoftheCats*

    I thought I’d leave another story from my job searching.

    My school’s career center hosts informational interview-like sessions for students to connect with local organizations. Basically, you sign up for an industry you’re interested in and talk with representatives from 3 orgs. So, I signed up for non profits.

    The night before, I researched the people we were supposed to talk with and the organizations. One of the orgs had a “mission statement” page with “TBD” written on it. I’m really curious about this and want to address this without being weird about it. The next day, I and the other 3 students who signed up for nonprofits talk with the program manager (if I remember correctly). We were supposed to talk with the VP, but after waiting 10 minutes+, the program manager was like, “I guess we’ll start while we wait for the VP.”

    After the presentation, we get to ask questions. I ask, “What direction do you see this org going? What do you hope this org will accomplish in 5 or 10 years?”

    The program manager responds, “Well, we’d like to see this org become a youth org.” Y’all, this org did nothing with youth nor was making any attempts to. The org held scholarly and theoretical talks *during* school hours. Like, how are you going to become a youth org if you don’t hold events that youths would be interested in and ARE ACTUALLY ABLE TO ATTEND?

    Admittedly, I overstepped and asked if they thought about reaching out to local NHS chapters to advertise their volunteer events to high school kids. But the response was just so absurd: “Well, we don’t want to reach out to young people, because they tend to leave for college.”

    At this point, I’m so confused about what this org’s mission is and the direction in which it’s going but I decide to stop asking questions and thank the program manager for his time.

    Oh, and the VP never showed up.

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      I am….so confused.

      We want to be a youth org! But not for *those* youths, because youths leave for college! Bwhaaaaaa?

      I agree that they do not sound like they know what they want.

      1. QueenoftheCats*

        LOL, I know, right? Like, I think one problem was that the program manager wasn’t supposed to speak with us that day and was left to clean up the VP’s mess, in a sense. Second, the program manager was there for only 3 months, I think. So, he was still relatively new to the org. But the fact that he couldn’t articulate what the org hopes to accomplish was surprising.

        Out of perverse curiosity, I just checked out their website. They no longer have a link or tab or whatever to get to their mission statement page. BUT if you type “org, mission statement” into Google, you can get to the mission statement page, which still says “TBD.”

  190. Environmental Compliance*

    I think I’m a bit late for this…. but does anyone have any recommendations on a specific type of work shoe brand?

    Basically, I’m looking for a slip on women’s shoe that doesn’t look like a boat shoe, has plenty of toe room, and good arch support. I don’t need to wear dress shoes, but would prefer it to look nice-ish. Just need a nice set for around the office, since I’m usually in steelies out in the facility. My normal slip on shoes are getting old and making my toes hurt.

    Slip ons preferred mostly so it’s easier to jump in and out of my steelies but also because I am That Person who slips off shoes at my desk (mostly because right now my feet hate my shoes, but also because my chair is too tall and I like sitting cross-legged….I have my own office, fwiw).

    1. snack_attack*

      I like the brand Vionic, they have a lot of various styles and have amazing arch support! I have very flat feet so I need a solid arch in my shoe, but I detest most arch support shoe brands because most look too clunky.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Doh. Nesting fail originally.

      I always urge everyone to take a page out of the nursing handbook and get some Danskos. They come in a lot of options and have the support you’re looking for since they’re built for people who are on their feet for a million hours a day.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        I loooooooooove my mom’s Danskos but they’re so expensive! I feel weird dropping $150 on a pair of shoes that I sit around in an office with.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          You will probably find that with a comfortable “nice” set of shoes, you’ll wear them for more than the office.

          They also last forever. So they could very well be the last office-shoes you need. So $150 right off the top but how often do you buy shoes? If you buy them every year for $50, they pay themselves off in 3 years.

          1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

            Seconded — I have two pairs of Danskos (one black, one brown) that are both literally 15 years old and still in fantastic shape. I don’t wear them as much anymore, now that I work from home, but for probably ten of those fifteen years, I wore one of the two pairs for at least five days out of the week year round, and every day during the winter.

            That said – if you have weak ankles, I have heard from some folks that they find it’s easier to roll an ankle in Danskos than some other shoes.

          2. Environmental Compliance*

            TBH I hate buying shoes, so honestly I haven’t bought shoes for….5 years? With the exception of my steelies that I buy once a year through work.

            My riding/barn boots are about 10 years old. I’m awful about shoe shopping. I tend to wear them into the ground, and I don’t own many pairs. Off the top of my head I own two pairs of heels I never wear, my pair of running shoes, my pair of slip-ons, my barn boots, and then my steelies. And a pair of flip flops for gardening. Generally day to day I’m either in flip flops gardening, barefoot when I can, or in my barn boots.

            1. Lurker from ABQ*

              Delurking late in the weekend because of your “barefoot when I can” comment to mention Xero Shoes (google for their website) – they specialize in zero lift ‘barefoot’ style shoes. In the last few years, they’ve been expanding their selection significantly – I now own 5 pairs in 3 different styles (including my running shoes), and have been thrilled with all of them. They have a wide variety of styles, but for your slip-on focus, the Cassie is a Mary Jane style, and the Hana can be worn as a slide or not, maybe others as well. My recommendation is to make sure and check sizing for each style you’re interested in – I think with the increase in styles, they’ve had some sizing inconsistency, but I personally haven’t had an issue following their sizing recommendations, even though that means that I’ve ordered a couple of different sizes from them.

              In looking at their shoe options today in debating to post, I see that they now have lightweight water proof hiking boots, as well as tall boots that I hadn’t seen before….now I want to order more!

    3. Glomarization, Esq.*

      I travel by bus or on foot to work, so during my commute I’m in sneakers or boots. At the office, I keep a couple of pairs of slip-on loafers. One pair are some ridiculous spendy Italian brand that were hand-me-downs from a friend who didn’t like them; another are just plain ol’ Naturalizers.

    5. Lady Kelvin*

      I wear SafeTStep ballet flats. I got them from Payless before they went down and this particular pair I have been wearing for 3 years and still look nice/not worn. They have excellent arch support with real non-slip soles. I actually went back and bought 3 more pairs when they announced they were going out of business (Payless) but the shoes are still available on Amazon. These are the ones I have:
      https://www.amazon.com/safeTstep-Resistant-Womens-Black-Sasha/dp/B01J91G40U/ref=sr_1_44?dchild=1&keywords=SafeTStep&qid=1569614001&s=apparel&sr=1-44

      but they make several nice looking slip-ons and even a pair of heels (which I have and are relatively comfortable, for being heels).

  191. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    I always urge everyone to take a page out of the nursing handbook and get some Danskos. They come in a lot of options and have the support you’re looking for since they’re built for people who are on their feet for a million hours a day.

  192. Just had a really uncomfortable interaction with our postal carrier*

    I am really hoping for some sound advice because to be honest, I am a little shaken up. We have a new postal worker that has been coming for a few months. I sort of got a vibe that he was attracted to me, but nothing definitive. He comes by 3 times a week and always made an effort to give me the mail. My office is across from the main office and admin office. It is not my job to take the mail and we have an inbox. Initially, I helped when he was new since we get mail for so many past employees. He compliments my hair often (although many people do as it is blue and purple) and would ask about plans for the weekend. I was always polite, but tried to be curt. He asked me if I was married, and I said, “yes.” He continued to be friendly, and i just sort of left it alone.

    Fast forward to the incident that occurred an hour ago. I am a breastfeeding mother and was in my office pumping. I had a sign on my door that apparently fell. he comes to the door, not sure if he tried it, but it was locked. I said, “hold on!” and he walked away. A few minutes later he comes back while I am still pumping and knocks again, I say, “Hold on!” but he doesn’t leave. At this point, I am very flustered. I drop my bottles after getting tangled in the cords spilling some of my milk. As I am trying to cover my breasts and get adjusted to open the door, I see him putting his face to the glass on my door trying to peer in. (The glass is thick frosted glass, so unlikely he could see much beyond a figure.) I open the door, and say “oh my sign fell.” he says “You look beautiful! Were you just putting that on?” I respond, “no I have a baby I am breastfeeding and was pumping.” He sort of apologizes, then again he says “you look beautiful.” I just mumbled “thanks,” grabbed the mail, put a new piece of tape on my sign and shut the door to finish. Hindsight is 20/20 and i should have told him to go away, but I was truly flustered and caught off guard.

    My plan right now is simply to tell him that he can just put all mail in our inbox and our admin will take care of it since she will be back and try to just make myself unavailable. Beyond this, I feel torn as to what to do. He is here 3 days a week and my office is an an area that can be a bit more isolated in the building. He has always seemed harmless and perhaps had he only given the compliment, as uncomfortable as it made me, I would have been able to shake it off. But the pressing his face to my glass as I am trying to get myself covered has me feeling a lot of ick. I am hesitant to report as he knows where I work. In case it matters, he works for the USPS, not a mail worker in my building. Please be gentle everyone, this was a really unnerving experience and I am a little scared to poke the bear.

    1. WellRed*

      Constantly telling you you’re beautiful, trying to peer in your window like that. I think you have to report it (who knows who else he does this too?) but if you don’t want to, does he show up fairly predictably, timewise? Could you be absent during that time? A pain, I know. Definitely re-direct him to the inbox.

      1. Just had a really uncomfortable interaction with our postal carrier*

        Today was the first day he has ever been that overt with the whole you look beautiful thing. Before it was easier to just blow off his small talk and the random hair compliments which I truly do get a lot of due to the colors. I am having a bit of a delayed reaction, right after it happened, I had a whole “well that was weird.” Now I am feeling super on edge and to be honest, a bit violated. Pumping is such a vulnerable position to be in.

    2. Mama Bear*

      He shouldn’t have tried to get into a locked office or tried peering through the door. I’d be weirded out, too. I’d also change the mail so that the front desk or whoever should be responsible for it is getting it and be firm that he needs to put it there and leave.

      You can also talk to the post office nearest your office (where the mail is likely coming from) and tell them about this. If you feel like he’d retaliate or just don’t feel comfortable right now, make that known to your company. They should want to back you up and make you feel safe.

    3. fposte*

      I’m sorry that this guy is upsetting you! I’m not sure exactly what was transpiring with the breastfeeding thing–it sounds like he may not have known, but the “Were you just putting that on?” comment is to me weirder than the face to the window.

      I think the best thing to do would be to say something to him. What you say will depend on your comfort zone; if you might struggle with a more direct statement (“Please don’t knock on my office door when you’re here to deliver mail”) you can focus on the activity (“I’m dialing back the socializing and won’t be able to help you with the mail in future”).

      It’s also worth understanding that you don’t have to be nice to this guy, and it’s *okay* if he’s embarrassed or disappointed or hurt. If he says hello, you don’t actually have to answer, and you certainly don’t have to look up from your work or smile; you can also just respond “Can’t talk, working” without looking up from the computer. If he pointedly snubs you after you say you can’t socialize, that’s a *good* thing. Your goal here is not for him to change his behavior and still be happy and friendly; your goal here is not to have to talk to Mr. I Want Way Too Much of You, period.

      1. Just had a really uncomfortable interaction with our postal carrier*

        Thanks for this. I don’t believe he knew I was pumping since my sign fell. I was just in a very vulnerable position since I was pumping, so I am sure that is where a lot of my angst is coming from. I agree the “were you just putting that on” comment was super disconcerting as well. Made me worry he could see more than I think through my glass. Had I just been sitting here typing, I probably would just be all, “that is annoying, whatever.”

        1. Frankie*

          Yeah but your angst is valid even if you weren’t pumping. The “just putting that on” comment is 1,000 levels of ICK. If he didn’t know you were pumping he still seems to have assumed you were changing your clothes, which makes his behavior reprehensible.

          1. Just had a really uncomfortable interaction with our postal carrier*

            Thank you for this very valid point that I had not considered. I’ve been so flustered by the whole experience that I really wasn’t parsing out some of the meanings. I have been feeling like I am overreacting, and it is reassuring to see that I am not and his behavior was indeed creepy.

          2. Arts Akimbo*

            Reiterating this point! If he was PEERING IN THE WINDOW thinking you were changing clothes, that is full-blown creeper territory.

    4. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      On the one hand, I’d say file a complaint with your local postmaster. A couple of months ago, the mailman in my neighborhood tried to pull my front storm door open while I was holding it closed and yelling at him to go away, and I filed a complaint online I think before he even made it out of the subdivision.

      On the other hand, they never replied to my complaint and he’s still the same mailman (and he still sucks, but at least he stopped ringing my doorbell), so I have no idea how well that will work.

      1. Just had a really uncomfortable interaction with our postal carrier*

        It’s very scary to have experiences like that at your home and work. The fear of retaliation is real.

    5. Sharrbe*

      Yeah, tell him to put the mail in your inbox. A mailman should be dropping the mail and leaving. It’s not his job to give it to you directly when there are other places available for him to leave it. He especially shouldn’t be knocking on closed office doors (twice!) for something so simple. Your creep-o-meter is correct. If he doesn’t stop, let management know.

    6. Llellayena*

      Go ahead and poke. Call/email the postmaster describing the increasing levels of inappropriate and request that a different person be assigned the route. Inform HR and/or the office manager so they can run interference and back you up with the post office. It might require quite a bit of pushing and possibly a trip to speak to the postmaster in person (ask me how I know) but something should be done if you poke enough.

      1. valentine*

        Call/email the postmaster describing the increasing levels of inappropriate and request that a different person be assigned the route. Inform HR and/or the office manager so they can run interference and back you up with the post office.
        Yes. I would call so you can hear how seriously they take it.

        You simply don’t have to do this dance. Your colleagues can limit him to the front or request one of those white plastic bins to leave outside for him to use exclusively, so no entry, rain or shine. While it’s scary that he knows where you work, if they take your building or office off his route, he’ll be busy elsewhere. Is it possible to change offices, especially with a man? (Only if you can still have a locking door, of course.) And put a backup sign (with a solid, dark-colored backing) on your side of the door, over the glass.

    7. Buu*

      Talk to your coworkers and make them aware he’s being creepy, if you have a boss or friendly HR person tell them. Also perhaps ask HR for a more permanent sign holder to stop any issues with even non creepy people walking in. Hopefully they can head him off and perhaps have a male co-worker make a point of talking the mail while he’s there. He shouldn’t be wandering your building anyway so they could head him off saying it’s a security issue.

      Sorry you’ve had to deal with this it’s horrible. :(

  193. Princesa Zelda*

    I had to walk with the climate march in order to go to class this morning. I support them so I didn’t mind, but I wasn’t really able to ditch to join them; I’m not paying 10s of thousands of dollars in tuition and lost wages to not show up on a presentation day. Super cool to see that going around campus, though! I hope that they’re actually heard and that real change is seen.

  194. Cap. Marvel*

    I don’t know what’s going on with me this week.
    First, after reviewing documents for a very important conference I noticed that I made a major mistake. And to make matters worse, I had already sent it in an email to the meeting participants.
    Then I realized I had MORE than one mistake on two of the documents on the handout.
    My boss was really gracious (more gracious than I thought she would be) when I told her about the first one and I had someone else proofread before I sent them to print again.
    But I can’t help but beat myself up over it. I know I produce better work than this. I feel so demoralized and I really don’t have time to feel this way because the conference is right around the corner.

    1. Dr. Anonymous*

      Everybody who’s been to a conference without a major mistake in the documents somewhere raise your hand. Anyone? Bueller?

      1. valentine*

        Zero mistakes would be the real wowzer. My best friend’s sister’s boyfriend’s brother’s girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who’s going with the girl who saw Ferris pass out at 31 Flavors last night.

  195. MixedDrinks*

    So for those of you who followed my posts the last couple of weeks about my coworker who quit over being denied unpaid time off…the saga it at an end.
    For refresher, coworker (M) was granted intermittent FMLA for a chronic illness earlier in the year. Before the FMLA was approved (which happened on their one year anniversary with the company) they had to take some of their PTO to cover their time off. As soon as FMLA kicked in they took the sick time off as unpaid. Supervisor had granted some unpaid time off earlier in the summer since they felt bad that M had to use a good chunk of their PTO for their illness. M put in for additional unpaid time off for a music festival that is happening in a few weeks and supervisor denied the time off since it is technically against company policy (obviously there are exceptions such as family emergencies, etc…) and because M had made it very clear through words and actions that music festivals are a huge trigger and generally result in intense flare ups and a longer than normal recovery (about 2 days recovery for every day of the festival). M started bad mouthing supervisor and complaining about accommodations and eventually quit.
    This week was spent transitioning work and cross-training and it was rough! M did nothing but bitch and complain about management and how cruelly they were being treated. I was told how they stopped doing a particular task mid-way through the year because THE PRESIDENT OF THE COMPANY did not personally thank them for their help in hitting a particular goal (M contributed about 20% of the work) and they felt disrespected. Them not doing this task resulted in significant extra work for the people who completed the other 80% in order to maintain the goal number. What M did was completely behind the scenes so it was very hard to track that they stopped doing the job. It also takes about 15 minutes to do the job on a daily basis.
    Today was their last day and they decided to commit time card fraud.
    We’ve been receiving out of office messages starting at 2-3 pm each day this week and supervisor just received their final (electronic) time card and they claimed a full 40 hour week. They never came back from lunch today but their time card says they worked a full day. They owe the company for the nearly 1.5 weeks of PTO they borrowed against their accrual (there is a signed agreement stating they will have to pay it back if they leave before 12/31/19) so M wrote a check for the amount this morning. We just found out the check bounced because after the direct deposit cleared this morning, M closed the account on their way into work.
    Company is trying to decide if they are going to let it go, wait and see what M says on social media, or rain hell.

    1. WellRed*

      Why am I not surprised that M turned out to be like this? FWIW, I think the company needs to let it go and consider it money well spent to have her gone.

      1. Jamie*

        The pragmatic part of me totally agrees.

        The justice infused part of me is infuriated at the thought she’s going to financially profit from fraud.

      2. MixedDrinks*

        I think they are going to find out if they can legally withhold the entire last paycheck since it is less than what M owes the company and then take the loss and be done. We don’t have a reference ban here so HR is allowed to confirm employment dates as well as inform the reference checker that they are on our Do Not Rehire list.
        Just found out the bank provided proof of account closure that is timestamped 2 hours before M sat down to write the reimbursement check (on our security tapes) so that information is in the file if M complains about their missing check.

        Also just found out they are in the final stages of interviewing at my old employer and their potential boss is one of my husband’s cousins we will be seeing this weekend. I am anticipating a few questions.

        1. Rick Tq*

          The fact that M made a check out for a closed account I would think makes it fraud, and probably a felony given it was for 60 hours of pay.

          They should rain hell.

          And yes, your cousin should know about M’s shenanigans, especially the check fraud.

          2. Bilateralrope*

            The fun part is that the company doesn’t need to do much. Just file a complaint with the bank and/or law enforcement and let them rain more hell than the company can.

        2. Llellayena*

          Oh I would so prompt your cousin-in-law to ask, not just wait. “You’re going to want to ask me about ‘M’ since he’s applying to your company…”

  196. Auddish*

    Today is my last day at my job! I had my goodbye happy hour last night, where I got to hear a lot of the same complaints that I had echoed back to me by my coworkers. I was honest in my exit interview about the reasons why I’m leaving, and I also chatted with my manager a bit about it today. I’m hopeful that there is some change in the department/organization (turnover has been pretty high on our team for the past 5 years), but I’m glad that I’m putting my own oxygen mask on first and getting tf out.

    I didn’t have a job lined up when I left, but I ended up accepting a job at my favorite local café chain. I’m hoping that a more physical and social job will be a better fit for me than this current job has been and maybe lead to a fulfilling career in a different industry. Wish me luck!

    1. littlelizard*

      Good luck! Hearing others complain when you don’t have to deal with it anymore sounds kind of great!

  197. Snickerdoodle*

    About a year ago, I filed a complaint about a creepy guy on my vanpool. He’d begun his inappropriate behavior with invitations to lunch (always declined), escalated to trying to invite himself to hang out outside of work (also always declined and eventually forcibly shut down on my end), and eventually, when he realized he wouldn’t get anywhere, began constantly discussing sexual assault cases in a very victim-blaming or mocking manner. I documented and reported everything that happened, and he was promptly told to never contact me again and left the vanpool. I don’t know whether he were specifically told to leave vanpool or opted out of his accord, but I suspect the former because of the order to not contact me. (I’d also like to emphasize how much I love my employer; they listened to me and acted immediately.)

    A few weeks later, somebody else on vanpool who worked directly with that guy mentioned that he’d been quiet lately and also got in trouble at a recent meeting for spending the whole time on his phone. I suspected that his days were numbered. I still occasionally saw his vehicle in the parking garage on days that I didn’t take vanpool due to working an altered schedule, but I was able to avoid him mostly without incident. (I say “mostly” because twice he saw me and waited for a full minute for me to leave first, I think/hope out of paranoia on his part, but I sat in my car with the door locked until he gave up and left so as not to give him the opportunity to follow me out.)

    I had heard him mention job vacancies he’d seen elsewhere at our company or even at different companies, and while I thought it may have been all talk as he didn’t mention an interest in any of those positions himself, he must have been looking at postings for a reason. I remembered that when he got told to leave me alone and hoped he’d follow through.

    It took longer than I hoped, but I realized today that I hadn’t seen his vehicle in the parking garage for several weeks. I checked our internal directory, and he is no longer listed. I don’t know whether he were let go for something else or was sufficiently uncomfortable from my own complaint and the other stuff he got in trouble, but it doesn’t matter. I feel incredibly relieved. I felt guilty at the idea of getting anybody in trouble no matter how richly deserved, but whenever I have those thoughts, I glance over the spreadsheet where I documented all the nasty things he said about women, my blood boils, and I just think “Good riddance to bad rubbish.”

    1. SarahKay*

      Definitely good riddance. Also, please bear in mind that you didn’t get him in trouble! He got himself in trouble.
      Here’s the thing – I’ve never been in trouble for stealing. And why? Is it because no-one has reported me for it? No, it’s because I don’t steal. Also – no-one’s reported me for stealing because….ta-da …. I don’t steal.
      He made his bed and he can jolly well lie in it.

  198. Koala dreams*

    The challenges of modern life! It reminds me of card readers in stores. I’m always standing there, card in hand, looking for clues for how the machine should read my card. Is it by the tape, the chip or the touch thing? If I take too long to decide, the cashier will helpfully tell me, but the next visit to that store I’ll have forgot.

  199. Anonforthis*

    In case no one has had their fill of petty food wars:

    In my company, the sales division orders catering for every day of the last week of the quarter. Because it’s usually laid out in the common area and is an abundant amount of food, pretty much anyone in the company, in addition to the sales team, tends to help themselves to the lunches. (Personally, I usually wait until after the lunch hour to see if there is any food remaining, and take whatever is left.)

    Yesterday, a company wide email from HR went out reminding people that he catered food was for sales, and that any non-sales staff should wait until after lunch hour to help themselves to any leftovers. Well, this pissed off a lot of the non-sales people, who doubled down in taking the catered food. The rationale being that sales gets special treatment from the company, and that the rest of the staff who work late hours shouldn’t be denied the same perks.

    Being non-sales, I technically agree with the philosophy but don’t think it’s worth the fight?

    1. WellRed*

      Sales often gets treated differently than other departments. It can be annoying, but I’d hate being a salesperson so much I figure they can have it! The coworkers who doubled down taking food are childish.

      1. valentine*

        Well, this pissed off a lot of the non-sales people, who doubled down in taking the catered food.
        I can’t believe they did that. This kind of entitlement is gross.

    2. Mama Bear*

      If our business development folks have clients in, the food is for them. If our engineers work through lunch, then the food is for them. Any leftovers are fair game *once those meetings are over*. I think if this is an issue, they should utilize a conference room that is not so visible. Also, if other late night folks feel slighted, they should talk to management about getting in on/their own food. What may happen otherwise is nobody gets food.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      They need to stop laying it out in the common area. Hands down, that’s the problem here. It’s rude to put things in the common area and then go “JUST FOR SALES THO”.

      Yeah it’s generally not fair. Sales is a hard job but they tend to also get paid for that hard job, including commissions you’re not getting as a non-sales person.

      It’s pretty tacky all around and I dislike how everyone is handling it!

    4. Jamie*

      I think sales gets treated differently because the job seems like it sucks so much they have to bribe people to do it.

      Kidding, sort of. I know some people thrive in sales, but it’s my idea of a living nightmare.

      Is there a way to have their spread somewhere it’s not in the way of other people? Either way doubling down on taking it is incredibly rude and as others have noted, childish.

      I have known people who weren’t happy that some of us had reserved parking spots but if they had shown that by parking in them it wouldn’t have ended in a group hug. If people feel entitled to things that aren’t theirs they need to make a play to their manager to get the perk for themselves through proper channels.

  200. Kathleen_A*

    This is probably a weird thing to wonder about, but: How can you tell if someone’s behavior is based on their being a sexist or just their being an ass? And practically speaking, how does it matter?

    Some background: I’m a middle-aged female. I’ve recently had a couple of (now ex-) coworkers who are both male, both much younger than me and both extremely bad at taking direction from me. I didn’t supervise either of them (they didn’t know each other, BTW), but I do supervise projects that they contributed to, and while they weren’t actually disrespectful or anything and seemed to like me OK personally, they just…almost never did The Thing I Asked Them to Do the Way I Wanted It Done.

    For example, I’d say, “Please write this piece, and remember to follow these style guidelines.” And in each case, the individual guy would write it, but he wouldn’t follow the style guidelines even though he was supposedly familiar with them – i.e., he was doing The Thing but he wasn’t paying attention to The Way I Wanted It Done. So I’d edit it and tell him, kindly and carefully, where he’d gone wrong. He’d thank me and tell me he’d do better the next time. But then the next time would roll around, and once again he’d do The Thing but because he would also make exactly the same sorts of errors, it wasn’t The Way I Wanted It Done. So I’d edit The Thing again, and go over the problems again but in more detail, and he’d again thank me for the correction and promise to do better. But then the next time I asked him to do The Thing…

    And on and on and on! Guy A was here more than a year and Guy B was here for six months, and both almost never gave me The Thing I Asked Them to Do the Way I Wanted it Done, despite their supposed familiarity with the style guidelines and despite claiming to understand my instructions.

    When it happened repeatedly with Guy A, I figured I just wasn’t communicating effectively, so I tried harder and tried different communication methods (e.g., sometimes I’d go over the changes verbally one by one, sometimes I’d send him detailed notes on what changes I’d made and why I’d made them, sometimes I’d have him rewrite it rather than doing so myself)…but I saw almost no improvement. And that’s why when Guy B started working here, I was extra careful in my communications, but again, saw almost no improvement.

    I honestly never thought “Sexism!” I figured it was a combination of their being in over their heads, job-wise (neither was very good many parts of their jobs, which is the major reason why they’re ex-coworkers), some sort of mismatch in communication styles between me and them, limitations in their writing skills, and possibly stubborness.

    It was my boss – another middle-aged female – who said both Guy A and Guy B simply had big ol’ problems being supervised by women. That’s certainly possible (particularly with Guy A), but I never really picked up on it while they were here, and by the time they left, my boss was so fed up and negative about them for so many reasons (both justified and unjustified, IMO) that I don’t think she’s the most reliable of observers.

    So again, how can I tell if something is sexism or just general assedness? And if it is sexism, what should I do differently, if anything? I don’t care that much if in their heart of hearts they are sexist just so long as they don’t let it affect their work. I’ll let their parents, friends and significant others worry about their inner selves. I just want them to do The Thing I Ask Them to Do the Way I Want It Done!

    1. OtterB*

      I’m not sure it matters whether it was sexism or simple jerkery. But if it happens again, after the first time (and possibly even the first time) instead of editing it yourself to match the style guidelines, I’d return it to them saying that the content looks good (assuming it does) but that it needs to follow the style guidelines. I suppose you could ask, in case there was possibly a reason, e.g., that they followed a different style guide for other projects. But I don’t think you needed to do the detail-level fixing.

      1. Asenath*

        Yeah, I think I’d have done that. I tend not to worry why someone isn’t doing what I want them to do (because of sexism or jerkiness), but on what needs to be done and what (if any) methods I have at my disposal to make them do it – or work around them entirely, eliminating them from the process. I tend to take a rather concrete approach to things.

        1. valentine*

          I’d return it to them
          I think it’s definitely sexism and they would’ve dropped the varnish had you stopped doing their work for them.

    2. Mockingjay*

      At this point, whether they are sexist seems irrelevant. What you do have is a consistent pattern of inaccurate, poor work for a year with employees who are not improving regardless of coaching and tools available to help.

      Right now they have no motivation to improve because you are fixing their half-ass attempts for them.
      Get their manager involved as well (you said you don’t manage them directly, correct?). “Jane, I need Bob and Earl to provide the copy for the teapot sales ads that follows the company style guidelines. I haven’t been getting quality copy from them.” If they don’t comply, their manager should put them on a PIP or whatever next steps. This is their manager’s problem to solve.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      In your example of the two guys who stunk at doing their jobs, I think it boils down to just that. They weren’t good at the job, not just at the part that you were involved in! So it’s not sexism or jerk-attitude issues. They’re just incompetent due to the fact they’re not equip for the job at hand.

      I had this happen with one person, he wasn’t sexist, he was very much into “yay strong woman! yay!” and I’m like “Dude, I’m not going to give you a “honorary woman” label or something, so I don’t know why you keep acting like that but thanks?” But he was a-w-f-u-l at the job.

      The dbag that I had that was sexist? Would look me straight in the face and just go the other direction when I said something like “Hey Steve, can you clear this shelf over here, it needs to be free for deliveries!” Then I’d come back an hour later and the shelf would still be packed with sh*t that was supposed to be put away by then.

      Or when I said “You cannot do that, it’s a safety violation.” he’d roll his eyes at me and start climbing the ladder without the ef’ing safety equipment required.

      But if any of the dudes rolled in, who were all below me in rank and said “DUDE SAFETY VIOLATION!” that dbag would go “Oh shoot, forgot my harness” and go grab one before getting back on the lift.

      The way you handle people who don’t do it right is to toss it back at them and say “This is wrong, I told you X format. I need it redone. Please pay attention to the directions the first time.” This is how men talk to each other and if they don’t respond to you well, then they probably have some sexism rolling around inside of them.

      I rarely jump to “they’re sexist” until they really give me a GD reason to label them that way. Sure there are casual sexist behaviors that happen and it’s an issue that we’re always trying to flush out. But to assume that anyone and everyone is, is a problem as well. Let someone show you who they are in a real way before you slap that label on them. For both of your sakes.

      1. Frankie*

        Well “just a jerk” and “sexism” aren’t mutually exclusive, although the one doesn’t presume the other. I think we’re allowed to call a spade a spade. Women cautioning each other not to jump to conclusions when there’s still casual sexism aplenty can just be a form of gaslighting ourselves. Particularly because women can be just as sexist toward other women as men can. We all live in this sexist culture so we’re all a part of it, and it manifests at work all the time even among the well-intentioned. I have a particularly kind grandboss who still plays favorites with particular men in the department, when we’re mostly women. Should I not be naming that as sexist when it pretty clearly is?

        At the end of the day we’ll never know from this letter, but I wish I could go through one post asking “is this sexist?” without running into someone admonishing someone else for even suggesting it’s might be a thing without presenting 100% evidence it’s the case. We’re not in a criminal court here.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          That’s fair, you can certainly be both.

          My own grandmother hated me because of her sexism. She would constantly say how lucky it was that she had only boys because “girls blah blah blah.” so I totally understand that’s a thing.

          But you will also find things you are looking for most often. So if you start digging, sure you’ll find sexism in every single place you start digging in.

          The problem is that by hyperfocusing on it, it can create stress and for what exactly?

          It doesn’t help the problem to assume everyone’s the problem. So I’ll continue to caution people against continuing to spiral down that rabbit hole. If you want to think it’s gaslighting, fine enough, that your right.

    4. Yes Anastasia*

      In this case, I don’t think it matters much. If these guys weren’t taking your corrections seriously, they were only hurting themselves (well, and aggravating the heck out of you and your boss).

      However, I do agree that you weren’t obligated to give them as much editing and coaching as you did. Once you gave them feedback, it was ultimately up to them to ask for what they needed to improve.

      1. voyager1*

        Honest question, could the manager be terrible and that is blowing over on to you? Basically the two coworkers were both to a point where they just didn’t care?

        Also want to voice another vote for sexism isn’t always a male. The worst sexist misogynistic manager I had to deal with was a mid 50s white female who branded her self as a feminist boss type. She was notorious for holding back women with families and even told one her managers not to hire young woman into the processor roles because they get married and have kids and get unreliable or quit. The manager at the time (female) was trying to start a family.

        Good times.

      2. Kathleen_A*

        With Guy A, our boss definitely became a demoralizing force in the poor, albeit irritating, guy’s life, but she can’t have been the primary problem because she wasn’t our original boss, and Guy A was just as bad at giving me The Thing I Asked Him to Do the Way I Wanted It Done when our original boss was in charge.

        With Guy B, I don’t know how much of his problem was general demoralization (because he definitely became demoralized too, though his inability to understand The Way I Wanted It Done problems started before that) and how much was something else – general assery, sexism, so-so writing skills, poor comprehension skills, what have you.

        I do understand (from personal experience) that sexism isn’t always male, though I appreciate the reminder.

        I think I was just too easy on Guy A originally – those of you who said I should have jumped right on it in the beginning are almost certainly right – but I just couldn’t get it in my head that anybody could be so dang bad at/resistant to following a fairly simple, basic and sensible directive such as “Follow AP style, which you claim to already be familiar with.” (I may have been too easy on Guy B, too, although he was here a fairly short period of time, so it’s kind of hard to say.) I still have difficulty understanding it now, even after having gone through it two times. Why not just write it the way I asked for it to be written? Why why why? But I think this will be a valuable lesson when Guy – or Gal – C starts writing for me.

        Thanks so much for your input, everybody. What an interesting discussion!

  201. Jamie*

    I had an accidentally candid conversation with my boss today.

    After the audit was over we all vented a little (the guy was an ass) and I made a joke that’s not a joke about just being glad I still have a job at the end of it.

    My boss asked if I was serious, and I said kind of…that I assumed if he had issues with my work he’d tell me so no I didn’t exactly expect a pink slip, but the paranoid part of me was worried blah blah blah.

    Kind of surprised myself with my honesty, tbh.

    He popped into my office a bit later to make it really clear how happy they are with me, with my work, how he was surprised I’d have worried about my performance at all since the thought I knew how well I was hitting it out of the park. And then he gave me an impromptu bonus. Not major end of year type stuff, but super nice and a total surprise.

    I’ve been struggling with my self-confidence last year or so and while I’m sure anxiety will be back soon…can’t tell you how relieved I felt and now I’m just exhausted. From the worry, the audit, everything…I’m so ready to go home.

    Anyway – I just wanted to share my relief.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I don’t have to deal with our auditors but the stories I hear from the people who do deal with them…lord help me, if it makes you feel any better, they’re always a kooky bunch from what my team says. Every one of them. Not usually actually a “Good girl” and jackhole kind of person but just…very…odd ducks.

      It’s usually in that kind of slap-happy state that the best conversations come around! I’m glad that it happened and that your boss is on notice that he needs to give positive feedback along the way. Some bosses really just assume that you “Get it” and that if they’re not chastising you or giving you bad feedback, of course you’re doing well. It’s a huge fail in management that a lot of them really need to work on.

      1. Jamie*

        He’s actually a great manager and before my crisis of confidence I wouldn’t need more than what I’d been getting.

        I’m just super wary of telegraphing by own insecurities to anyone outside of my own head, house, or this comment section!

        As an auditor myself I usually get them, but not this guy. Just a smarmy, sexist, jackass.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          You’re an internal auditor though, which is different than those weird outside ones. Those auditors seemingly have so little roots and so little social relief outside of whomever is their captive audience. So they tend to just go on and on and on about some of the weirdest things. Which works in some ways since it’s only a 2.5 day audit for us, so we’re like “Yessssssssss use the time doing whatever you want, dude. Talk about your begonias!”

          It’s super unhealthy to live in your head like that. Something you already know, it’s okay to let others in the real world do their full jobs of being fully supportive of their staff! I def don’t think he’s a bad manager but just lacking in one of the areas that lots of managers aren’t very good at, everyone has room for improvement.

    2. Kathenus*

      That is so great, congratulations! And I mean that as much if not more than having the candid conversation, accidental or not. The bonus of course was great, but the communication is priceless. I suffer from that paranoia a bit myself, some of it I come by honestly because of past experiences, so I know how it can eat away in the back of your mind at times. So what a great outcome here for you.

      1. Jamie*

        Oh, I come by mine honestly, too. Past toxic work situations have messed me up to a degree I’m ashamed to admit irl. And thanks – yeah, hearing that he thought my fears of being fired were crazy means a lot more to me than the money…I’m going to try to hang on to the relief for as long as I can.

  202. Itsaa me, Mario!*

    I have a fairly new coworker who has been great – bright, listens well, learns quickly, etc. She sits in the cubicle next to me, so we socialize fairly regularly (work and otherwise). This is fine. However, she has been doing one thing that I find quite annoying (but I don’t know if my annoyance is justified).

    By the nature of her position, she has occasional free time. Our company’s website has a plethora of resources for new and existing employees in EVERY role in our company. My new coworker uses her free time to scour this website. This would be great (and even encouraged), but the problem is that she looks through documents that have absolutely nothing to do with her position, then comes to my cubicle and asks me questions about them several times a day. I rarely know the answers to her questions, as the documents she is looking at have nothing to do with my job, either. For instance, let’s say she works in accounting. She’ll ask me questions about the process of assembling parts onto heavy machinery. Obviously, this is not something that she will EVER have to know in her role.

    I get that she wants to show initiative and learn about the company, but these questions are so off base from what her role entails. I don’t actually even mind her reading up on these things if she really wants to in her free time. However, it’s frustrating being interrupted from my own work several times a day to answer questions from my coworker that are irrelevant to her job (and usually mine!)

    Is there anything I can do about this, or should I just forget about it? To clarify, I’m not her manager, but I have done a bit of training with her.

    Another thing to note: she’s not great at taking social cues when I’m busy. She’ll often come to my desk while I’m furiously typing an email, and just stand there until I acknowledge her.

    1. Miranda Priestly’s Assistant*

      I don’t think there is anything wrong with her wanting to learn about other functions at the company of time allows, but it does sound annoying that she’s bugging you with frequent questions about it. You can clarify to her that you do not do anything regarding what she’s asking you, and that if she wants to learn more, she will have to find someone in the other team to do so.

      I personally have perused training materials from other teams, but I study them on my own time. It wouldn’t make sense for me to bug my boss with questions about them.

    2. fposte*

      Time to use your words :-). “Jane, now that you’re in a good groove here, I’m going to be less available for questions during the day. So when you’re digging around in the website, I’m going to ask you to jot down any questions you have and find the right person to ask them on your own rather than turning to me.”

    3. Kathenus*

      Along with the other comments so far, the problem is her bothering you, not her looking at things out of her position on the website. As was already suggested, that’s the part you should address – just let her know that you don’t have time to field questions from her unless they relate to work that the two of you are doing together.

    4. Jane*

      I think I might say something like “I think it’s cool that you want to learn about things that are not related to your job, but I have to ask you to keep the questions that you direct at me related to just [areas you know about and are willing to teach her about], because I need to keep my focus on that work. While I’m happy to spend time answering questions that you need to know to do your job, I can’t spend my time going down rabbit holes that are unrelated. But again, it’s cool that you’re interested and I’m not trying to discourage you from learning from our internal documentation.”

  203. Ermintrude*

    I’m in the middle of finishing up a humongous application form and have reached a bit where I need to demonstrate prioritisation skills from my previous jobs.
    Now I love written lists and outlook reminders but I’m guessing that’s not to write. But – I don’t have any strong memories of Crucial Prioritisation Moments in former jobs – what do I write?????

    1. littlelizard*

      When you have a lot on your plate, how do you decide what to do first? Use examples from your previous jobs I guess (what your workload was like and what got done when)

    2. Lemon Squeezy*

      Has there been a time when you felt like your plate was overflowing, and you tackled it? How did you decide what to do first? Did you find any items you could delegate to people?

  204. snack_attack*

    Hello everyone! I have two questions:

    1. Is it a bad idea to apply to another job opening at a large company when I am somewhat deep into the hiring process for a different position? To further elaborate, I had an HR screening phone call/interview, a phone interview with the hiring manager, and recently completed an in-person interview with four people in the department (30 minutes for each person) last Thursday. I am excited at the possibility of getting an offer for the job I have been currently interviewing for, but I am realistic of the reality of being rejected. I would like to apply to the other position just in case I get rejected from the position I am interviewing for, but I could see how it might be a sort of “faux pas” to do so.

    2. How have people approached applying to positions outside of their current city? I understand why an employer would not want to court someone from another city given all the hassle and costs involved, but has anyone had success with at least getting some phone interviews for jobs in other cities? On a related note, I have a SO who is getting a PhD in another city and have been occasionally using his address to apply to jobs in that city (if the job is a good fit, I didn’t want to uproot myself for a job that I didn’t love or wasn’t good for my career) but didn’t know if that is too shady?

    1. wingmaster*

      1. I would apply. Keep applying until you have a written offer in your hand.

      2. I have had luck getting interviews in different cities and even states. I have even made it to the final, in-person interviews for a couple! I just mention that I am open for relocation in my resume and cover letter. If I do have family in an area, I will usually mention that too.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m pretty useless in terms of #1 but I can help you with #2.

      You tell them in your cover letter that you’re looking to relocate to their city. If you’re up front that “Hey I know I’m not there right now, this is my plan.” they are more willing to talk to you! Just know that they will usually assume you’re going to foot the bill for interviewing with them in person if you get to that stage. They’ll often do a first phone interview but you will have to “Get there” at some point.

      Don’t just use his address if you’re not present or not letting them know that you’re not able to schedule an interview within the usual 2-5 day turn around time in some positions/companies. Most places don’t assume you need time to arrange travel as well as time off! It’s not so much that it’s shady, plenty of people do it but it can bite you. Nobody is going to want to give you a phone interview over an in person interview if that’s their first step if they don’t already know that you’re currently out of the area, you know what I mean? So be transparent.

    4. Llellayena*

      It sounds like the far-along position and the new position are with the same company? I’d ask your contacts for the first position if they think you’d be good for the second position if the first doesn’t work out. Wait a couple days then apply to the second position and mention in the cover letter that you’re currently interviewing for the first position. It should trigger at least one of them to respond reasonably positively.

  205. ismileenoughthx*

    I have a weird situation at work. Here’s the relevant info: I am still in my probationary period. I am in California.

    I had a review with my boss and one of two reps from HR. My boss told me I need to smile more. HR agreed. I am polite, never rude, never intentionally ignore anyone and they would be hard pressed to find a client who would say I am not pleasant and helpful. Do I greet every single person who walks by my desk? No. But I am frequently trying to block out ambient noise to concentrate because I’m in a high traffic area and have trouble concentrating. Because I’m still on probation and because I’m in an at-will state… is there anything to protect me here? Am I crazy for thinking this is inappropriate?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      No, you aren’t protected, even in California. Unless you have a medical condition that makes it so you can’t physically smile more, then you could ask for an accommodation in that case. They are able to set rules about smiling, greeting people and general behavioral kind of things like that for their “optics” nonsense.

      It is ridiculous. Their priorities suck. I would not want to stay in that place if I were you. I’ll smile when I want to, bro. Unless the laser beams coming out of my eyes are scorching you, shuddup.

      1. Jamie*

        Yep – all of this. And I, too, have been officially instructed to smile more. My response, at the time, was to explain that I don’t smile when I focus and I was sorry I wasn’t decorative enough.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Thankfully nobody has the sack on them to ever try to tell me to smile more.

          I get “smile” for pictures more than anything and I’m like “Nope, I either look like a grump or I look like a deranged axe murder. I’ll go ahead and stick with grump to avoid scaring anyone.”

          1. Jamie*

            Oh – speaking of pics I had to provide one this week for parent company org chart.

            Couple of years ago this would have sent me into a tailspin based on my hatred for pics of myself and absolute invasion I feel it is for companies to require them. But this time I just tossed them a kinda shitty selfie…not smiling.

            I think I’m entering my give no f’s season of life.

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              Welcome to the best season of life.

              My f’s ran out about 5 years ago. I’m like “Does it really matter though? In the long term, tell me how this matters?”

              Granted, I can attribute my change to when my dad was in total health crisis. My brain finally went “You stress out about the wrong things. Care about what matters and let the rest of the crap blow into the wind.”

      2. ismileenoughthx*

        Would it be fair to ask them to create a specific set of rules that must then be emailed to the entire company? They can’t create rules that only apply to me, right? There are 100+ people here and lots of them haven’t/won’t smile at me. Should I be reporting them?

        1. WellRed*

          It depends on the role. If you’re say, a receptionist or customer service person facing clients all day, yes, they can ask you to smile whereas IT, it might not matter. If you are female and your male receptionist coworker isn’t required to smile, that’s another ball if wax. Bigger picture? This job is not a good fit for you.

          1. WellRed*

            And they certainly can’t require your coworkers to smile at you. How do you know they aren’t required to smile when dealing with clients?

          2. ismileenoughthx*

            I’m not a receptionist. We rarely have clients in office and when we do they are typically with their own coordinators and not milling around on their own or being handled by the office as a whole. My disposition with clients is obviously different and they’d be hard pressed to find one who would say I have been anything other than pleasant and helpful.

    2. Dr. Anonymous*

      Ask them if there’s a particular coworker who smiles enough that you should be emulating. Is there a metric you should hit? Is there some deeper issue of cordiality they’re trying to get at? You’ll look like you care and also give them the opportunity to realize they’re being stupid. Or you can keep a little log of your smiles at your desk to present for your next review. “I took your feedback to heart and I smiled in 95% of my interactions last week. Mary got kind of upset when I smiled at the news of her miscarriage, tho. Maybe you should tell her to smile more.”

  206. Fikly*

    Concussions, they continue to not be fun!

    Had a bit of a work brain fart. Had a task come in that had a complex part that involved a less timely response, and a simple that needed a faster response. I got so distracted thinking about the complex part that I completely forgot that the simple part even needed to be done.

    It didn’t cause a problem, it was fine, but I’m just frustrated, because I would not have made that mistake before the concussion.

  207. Fiona*

    My partner is going back to school for a boot camp (coding/UX/UI, etc). I want to make a little back-to-school package for him. For adults in school, what were some things you would have enjoyed as little treats? I’m thinking new notebook, maybe some caffeinated snacks/drinks (espresso beans?), fresh new pens, etc. He’s a minimalist and tech-y so I’m trying not to go overboard with “stuff” but all ideas are welcome.

    1. NotAPirate*

      New USB drive. Loved having empty one that could be just school stuff. Didn’t like the one with my music and photos getting passed around when sharing files. Also kept it easy to separate stuff out. And you can get a fun one! I’d try for minimal 1 GB, that should be <10bucks. Some of the novelty ones are too small to be useful.

      Notebook + pen is good. Even if you type notes it can be useful to have around. If he's more a tablet guy a new stylus might be fun, those are pretty cheap.

      Post it notes and the post it flags were my favorite gift to get. Never had enough. Especially when working on code, useful to jot down bugs to fix later on a post it note. If there's any reading post it flags (the see thru ones) are so helpful. They make little highlighters with post it flags in the handle, one of those might be nice.

      Snacks, I'd steer away from stuff that makes crumbs. That can be annoying in computer labs. What about fruit snacks or something chewy?

      Does he have all the gear he wants for transporting his laptop? They make cable wranglers and organizers.

      No functional use but thinking putty or other fidgets (cube, tangle, etc) can be fun.

      2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        If he’s a tablet guy, think useful apps – I lived on Notability in grad school for both taking notes from scratch and annotating provided PDFs. Or maybe a small gift card to his app or online music store of choice, to go toward useful materials or study tunes.

    3. QueenoftheCats*

      Fun snacks! Anything he likes or might like, but you guys don’t normally buy. Maybe instant coffee packets and/or drink packets, like lemonade or poweraide? And protein.

  208. Amethyst*

    For the last couple weeks, I’ve found myself flushing during intense conversations with coworkers or my supervisor. I’m pretty sure I know why: I’m averse to conflict, have PTSD, & in the case of my supervisor, I’m afraid I’ll be found out as not doing a good enough job & I’ll be back to being unemployed again. I know the last thing isn’t possible, but I can’t help but feel like I’ll be told I can’t hack it.

    I’ve had to tell my supervisor about another girl’s mistakes, particularly today when I found a $155 invoice in a batch that hadn’t been accounted for in the total she’d provided–which also happened to be 30 cents off, & that set me off into adding & re-adding multiple times. So that was an instance where I got red-faced… For context, this girl & I have had words because she’s a sneaky, underhanded, manipulative & conniving woman who hangs her backups out to dry, so I was concerned that I’d be seen as trying to get her in trouble (I wasn’t; I was just bringing this to my supervisor’s attention).

    I also flush when I’m questioned on something related to my work out of the blue, like I’m doing something wrong. Also for context: I’m damn good at my job & I’ve heard nothing but little nitpicky things here & there that I can improve on, which I’m working on, & they’re happy overall with what I’ve done so far. But when someone comes over & just starts asking me about why I did X, etc., it feels like a personal criticism & I’m gonna lose my job.

    Same thing for a confrontation between my supervisor & me a couple weeks ago in which she’d accused me of stealing company time for taking my 2 15 minute breaks together to have a lunch. I’d left at 11, she came by at 11:28 looking for me (of course I wasn’t there, I was eating), & left a note asking me where I’d been. Come to find out, the policy is only 1 15 minute break for a 7 hour shift, but they’d never told me any of that so for 2.5 months I’d been taking 2 15s. I wasn’t in trouble for that as they recognized it was their own fault for not telling me of the policy, but the conversation was extremely intense to the point where I turned red.

    So… How can I calm this phyislogical response so I’m not always red-faced in these instances? I’m also getting pretty tired of responding like I’ve done something “wrong” when I haven’t, so anyone with tips & tricks for getting over those two things would be really appreciated.

    1. NotAPirate*

      You survived being unemployed before. if you ever did get fired you’d survive it again. It’s not enjoyable but you’d survive. Keep that in your back pocket.

      It really doesn’t sound likely, sounds more like anxiety talking. Do you have insurance to go see a therapist? 7cups has free “online listeners” you can talk to too. Best “trick” I ever got for anxiety was to pretend the anxious thoughts are a separate toddler. “Okay brain, that’s super unlikely but if we did get fired we’d be okay now lets think about whether we want carrots or celery first with lunch today”. In short, acknowledge the scary thought (fired!) and train your brain to redirect to harmless. Deep breathes. Can you have anything on your desk? Or wear jewelry? I find having something to poke at helps me calm down. Chewing gum sometimes helps too, focus on the taste instead of the panic spiral.

      Physically, red face go run cold water over your wrists or stick a wet paper towel on your face, and blame allergies if anyone asks lol. Hang in there!

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Sadly there’s no way to stop this from what I’ve experienced personally, unless you can really “fix” or at least work towards a fix of the anxiety triggers that are causing the physical response. In my situation, breathing and refocusing internally has helped a lot. My stomach still drops but I can breath and help keep the blood from rushing to my face now. Now I usually just feel it in my ears. I’m also a ginger so blushing is a frigging life long struggle no matter what.

      I’m really pissy about the fact they only offer one fifteen minute break and would ever get upset that someone took a second one. I’m from a state that requires rest breaks though, so I’m ice-cold towards jurisdictions who act like you don’t need rest breaks as an adult. Any time someone says “Time Theft” and it’s not someone writing down their hours egregiously wrong, saying they were there all day but leaving an hour early kind of thing, it turns me into a full scale dragon, ngl. So I kind of hate your employer and want to scream at them for being inhumane.

    3. Parenthetically*

      Ooohhhh boy yep this used to be SO me. In my case it was undiagnosed and uncontrolled anxiety, so therapy was really helpful to connect with my body and learn to sort of short-circuit that lightheaded, red-in-the-face response. I’ve been looking into EMDR which several of my friends have found helpful for their anxiety and PTSD. Meanwhile, helpful things for me:

      – rehearse the conversation beforehand whenever possible
      – mantras. “We’re all adults here and can have calm adult conversations.” “I am competent and can respond accordingly.”
      – from therapy: noticing the response starting to happen, taking a deep breath, locating the feeling in my body, and visualizing putting it inside a bubble or something else, and then putting on my bright cheery Competent Working Person face. I’ve had a lot of success with saying, “Yeah, I’ll come back to that feeling later.”

  209. Tired of this place*

    I’m considering starting to look for a new job, and trying to figure out how to avoid the things I don’t like here in the next place. Here’s one that I’m struggling with: my boss has a tendency, from my point of view, to overpromise. Our company produces a platform which our clients can use to create certain types of digital products. Some clients do this themselves, and others have us do it for them. Also, any time Boss is trying to get new clients in, he’ll want to show them demos, so we need to create demo products that integrate with what the client already has. This is all fine. But… Boss doesn’t always seem to think about what it’s going to take to produce these products. Even if it’s a standard set of things we’ve already made for other clients, it might not work as well with the new client, and it could take time to integrate – not to mention that the way we demo has its own issues. It’s hard to explain without being more (identifiably) specific. Or he wants things done but doesn’t give us the appropriate assets for them. Anyway, he often seems to want things that are difficult or not really possible, but he’s promised them to the client already, and usually wants them done in a day or two.

    Also, he… fibs a little, to clients? Handwaves things? Makes things look standard when they really took a good bit of custom work. Sometimes this is ok, like when we’re going to have something available out-of-the-box in our next release. But sometimes it seems like he’s making things look easier than they are to clients who may want to try it themselves, and it won’t be that easy. Or making it look like it does something that it doesn’t really do. I dunno, I get that there’s a certain amount of salesiness to it. We gotta make it look good. But how much is normal?

    Any idea how to screen out employers like this?

    1. Bananana*

      It sounds like it’s time for a meeting to remind him that while this has worked so far it may not always in the future. Explain that you don’t want the company to look foolish if a customer comes in and their demo isn’t ready, or they’ve been promised something on a certain date and now you have to call them back and delay. You want to make sure everything is put together properly for a professional and seamless presentation.

      As far as how to weed out leadership from other companies doing the same thing, who knows! I think that’s something you can never really know until you’re committed. I thought I was extremely thorough with my last interview, but after accepting the job and being here a couple months I had a rude awakening. Even talking to the other employees doesn’t help. Who is going to tell the truth and bad mouth their boss to a potential hire? I’m guilty of the same thing when interviewees were being marched around the office. It’s an awkward position to be in. Maybe look for someone blinking a morse code message in your direction…

      1. Lalaith*

        Well, he’s the CEO, so I don’t think I get to tell him things like that :-P He knows better than I do how the clients will respond. Also, I’m not entirely sure whether my counterpart is just that much faster than me, and has taught him to expect things faster. And whether she’s just extraordinarily fast or I’m slower than I should be. Sigh.

        I wish more interviewers did what one place I worked did. We had a small team, and the boss would do an interview and then bring the interviewee to the team and leave them there with us for a bit. So it was on a much more peer-to-peer level, and more relaxed, and I think a bit more honest than if the boss was standing right there.

  210. BobbyBob*

    I think I mostly need a reality check here. This week, a member of the leadership team at my organization announced her very unexpected retirement. She is someone I work very closely with and I manage or work on several projects in which the two of us are the only people on the project team. Most of the other projects I work on are solo projects in which I will occasionally go to her for guidance. I consider her a mentor and she was often my de facto supervisor even if not officially.

    After a large meeting this week, she tried to spontaneously wrangle as many people as she could into a room afterwards and ended up with only me and a few high-level external partners (presidents/CEOs of very large companies). She told us that she wanted to give us a heads up before “the email goes out” that she was leaving. The email to our entire organization (about 7,000 people) went out less than two hours later.

    I’m feeling really upset about the way I was told – with no warning, in an environment where I could not really have any reaction or ask any questions, in the company of external partners we work with only a handful of hours a quarter. Is this just one of those weird work-world norms that I should just expect when a leader announces they’re leaving? This couldn’t have been unplanned – there is a full succession plan in place that took planning and coordination, determining who will replace her (an internal person – no hiring process), etc. She also is staying on for 3 months to help the transition, so it wasn’t like there any major urgency that wouldn’t allow her time to have conversations with people beforehand. Given her position, I respect that it wasn’t something that could be shared widely before the announcement, but I think I deserved a one-on-one conversation given how closely we work together and how much it is going to impact not just my day-to-day work, but also potentially my trajectory and approach (she has been a strong advocate for the kind of work I’ve been doing, which goes in a somewhat unique direction within the organization).

    I’ve been avoiding her all week (not dramatically, just being off-site a lot) just to have some space to have my initial reaction and reach an equilibrium before I interact again, which will be next week. Regardless, I’ll get over it and be professional and find my way, but I’m just wanting to know if this is typical or not for receiving this kind of news. And, if it’s not, is it worth acknowledging that it sucked to her or should I just suck it up and take it in stride. I’m trying to keep emotions out of it because people leave and it’s not her problem, but I’m really sad that she’s leaving and I’m pretty freaked out professionally – I don’t know how much of my reaction to the way I received the news might be a projection of that. Thanks for any feedback.

    1. Colette*

      This line concerns me:
      I think I deserved a one-on-one conversation given how closely we work together and how much it is going to impact not just my day-to-day work, but also potentially my trajectory and approach

      The thing is, her choices are not about you, or what you deserve. She’s allowed to retire without considering how it affects you, and she is allowed to communicate it in the way that makes the most sense for her. It’s not about you in any way.

      Now, I also think it is reasonable to have a follow-up conversation where you explain how much you’ve appreciated her support, and where you talk about how the work will continue in her absence. You can also ask her for career advice in the coming months. But I’d stay away from complaining about her choice, or how she communicated it – it just won’t help you.

      1. Jamie*

        Totally agree. Many factors likely went into her choice on how to handle it and she doesn’t need to share any of them.

        I agree with Collette to use the time to flesh out how to prepare your work to move forward without her, but I would take care not to imply you feel she owed you a more personal approach.

      2. BobbyBob*

        Thank you. That’s exactly the reality check I needed. It still feels crappy, but you’re right that that isn’t her responsibility. To be clear, I’m not at all upset *with her* that she’s retiring (disappointed and sad personally, sure, but genuinely happy for her), just about how I was told. I won’t make her deal with whatever my reactions are to the fact of her retirement and will solely show 100% support and happiness for her. And I’ll get over feeling upset about how she told me – you’re right that it’s not about me and she has every right to do this the way she needs/wants to and I need to steer away from bringing that up. Thanks again.

    2. Kathenus*

      I can understand the way that you felt, but from an outside perspective it sounds like a pretty normal situation. As you mention most organizations have some guidelines as to how things like this are shared that she might be following. She did try to give you along with others a heads up versus just the impersonal email announcement, which is good. I don’t know that it’s realistic to expect one on one discussions in instances like this. From my reading it does seem like a work-world norm, and not necessarily a ‘weird’ one, but pretty typical. She may be happy to talk to you separately now to answer any questions you have, but I don’t see anything out of the ordinary in the situation based on my past experiences. If it was me I wouldn’t say anything to her about the way it was handled, because to me it seems within workplace norms. I’m not at all trying to minimize your feelings, and I’d have some of the same feelings, but I would recommend that you don’t take this personally as I don’t think it was meant that way at all and that it doesn’t reflect on the relationship between you and your colleague.

      1. BobbyBob*

        Thank you. I really appreciate your read on this being a pretty typical process. I’m giving myself permission to have a few days to feel how I feel about it in private, but knowing that it is very typical in how these things are done (in addition to her having the right to do this however works for her/the organization without it being about me) helps put it in perspective and not get stuck in feeling slighted somehow. And I definitely won’t bring it up with her and will stick with just the congratulations and transition planning.

    3. Parenthetically*

      Just sympathizing with how jarring this must have felt! But yes, her decision making had to be about her, she certainly had reasons that made sense to her for doing what she did, and she actually did work to soften the blow. (Or, on the other hand, it may not have been 100% her choice how this all played out! There may be policies in place regarding notifications.)

      1. BobbyBob*

        Thanks – jarring is a good word for it. And you’re right that she did try to give me a heads up and I should appreciate that instead of spinning it as not being good enough. And it’s very true, especially in my workplace, that there were likely pieces of how this was handled that were out of her control (including who she could tell what and when).

    4. Not All*

      I think she handled it remarkably well. If she has been there for quite awhile and is good at her job (which it sounds like), there are probably quite a number of people who feel like they have the type of relationship where they would have liked to be told one-on-one. But realistically she 1) doesn’t have time to go around and have that conversation over & over and 2) if she did do it, inevitably someone would have told someone who told someone…stuff like this is never kept secret long once more than a couple people know. Once it gets out that way, then there’s even more hurt feelings about “she told Jane before me…how could she?!”

      Telling only the people with true need-to-know, followed by in person with those she could, followed by all-staff before rumors swirled is about as good as it gets.

      1. BobbyBob*

        Those are all very good and accurate points I don’t think I truly put together until seeing it all laid out like this. Thank you.

    5. BobbyBob*

      I am really glad that I posted this – thanks for the feedback and the reality checks. I’m already feeling more able to keep it in perspective and not take it personally. I think I have been getting caught up in a specific thing I felt more “right” in being upset about instead of just having to be with the complexity of being happy for someone while at the same time feeling sad about the loss and anxious about the future. So I will let this little resentment go and just focus on next steps. Change is hard. Thanks again.

  211. Princess Peach*

    I’m hoping I’m not too late to get some responses here! Just wanted to share my frustrations with a coworker, John who NEVER reads emails. He is a sales rep, and I am in customer service. Thus, he frequently forwards me orders from his customers, that I in turn enter in our system.

    Last Friday, he forwarded me an email from a customer wanting to order a chocolate teapot, with PO #123456. This customer has multiple sites, so I replied to John asking him to please clarify with the customer what address/location he wanted the order sent to. Instead, John replied to the customer (CC’ing me) asking him to please provide a PO #. I emailed John and said, “John, I don’t need the PO # – he has already provided that. I’m just needing the address that he wants the order sent to.” John then emailed the customer clarifying that it was actually the address we needed, not the PO #. The customer hadn’t replied as of this Tuesday, so I emailed John again to let him know the order hadn’t been placed, because the customer still hadn’t provided us the shipping address. John then emails then customer (CC’ing me), and says AGAIN, “Customer X, we still haven’t received the PO number for this order.” (!!!) The customer replies and says “John, I already provided the PO #, please see below”, and attaches a screen shot of his original email, STILL not providing an address.” I reply to John again and say, “John, once again we already have the PO, we are needing the ADDRESS that the order needs to be shipped to. Finally, John sends an email to the customer asking for the address, and the customer provides it. John does not apologize.

    I just could NOT get over John’s attention to detail when reading emails. I’ve been here for four years, and he has always been terrible with emails, but even worse as of late (just to note: he almost never answers his phone, either, so it’s not ever any more effective to contact him that way). He almost always replies to emails with an inappropriate response that indicates he didn’t actually read the email, or doesn’t completely answer any questions in the email. Anyway, I was super annoyed with this situation, when a similar situation popped up that my manager was looped into…

    John sent over another order last week for a different customer. One of the items on order had never been ordered by the customer before, and I had reason to believe it was an error on the customer’s PO. I emailed John before entering the order (in a chain that my manager happened to be CC’ed on) saying, “John, the customer has never ordered X before. Are you sure they didn’t intend to order Y?” He replied with, “Go with what is on the PO.” So, we sent out X. Several days later, the customer emails John saying, “John, we accidentally ordered X on our PO instead of Y. We will need to return this and order Y instead. John forwarded the email along to my manager and I, to take care of the return (which by the way was a special order item, and now John’s customer is having to pay a restocking fee!)

    My manager was very irritated since I had indicated to John initially that the order was possibly incorrect. John replied with, “I didn’t know anyone had flagged that, I would have told you to ship Y had I known.” At that point, my manager showed John the email train in which he had specifically replied to me, indicating to ship X (the incorrect item that was now being returned!) He had NO idea he had even replied to my email the way he did. Anyway, my manager told John’s manager about the whole thing, gently nudging him to talk to John about his email issues.

    It’s frustrating though, because John is our longest tenured sales rep, and brings in a lot of money. He is the kind of person that will scoff and his manager trying to correct his email etiquette, and tell everyone in the office “how ridiculous [his manager] is being to care about his email etiquette.

    I just think John has no idea what an inconvenience he can be to his support staff. Sigh.

    1. Jamie*

      I don’t have any advice, but you have my sympathies! John is a nightmare that exists in most offices and for some reason they are usually good enough at sales to let them get away with it.

    2. Aurion*

      When John cc’s you on an email with the wrong request, you should be able to reply all back with a cheerful “thank you Wakeen for the PO#. In addition, can you provide the ship-to address?” Don’t call John out in public, keep the tone light and breezy, just ask for the information you want in addition to the information John requested (that you already have).

      Ideally all communication to the customer is funnelled through the sales rep, and it’s a bit feather-ruffling to go around the rep. But your sales rep is a giant flake, and honestly the back and forth with John constantly cc’ing you on emails asking for the wrong information from the customer is probably offputting/unprofessional either way, so short-circuiting that email chain will probably end up with a less pissed off customer anyway.

      I’m in procurement and occasionally I’ll contact the customer directly (though obviously most of the time I get the sales rep to do it). But you’re sales support, it’s less odd to have a follow up request to customer of this stripe than it is from someone like me.

      1. Princess Peach*

        “Ideally all communication to the customer is funnelled through the sales rep, and it’s a bit feather-ruffling to go around the rep. But your sales rep is a giant flake, and honestly the back and forth with John constantly cc’ing you on emails asking for the wrong information from the customer is probably offputting/unprofessional either way, so short-circuiting that email chain will probably end up with a less pissed off customer anyway.”

        Yeah, we’re encouraged to let the sales rep handle all the communication with the customer to build their relationship. However, at some point you’re probably right in that I should just contact the customer directly!

        1. valentine*

          I should just contact the customer directly!
          This may be what John is hoping for. You seem annoyed he cc’ed you on correspondence to the client, but I think it’s good for them to know you’re on the ball and John’s the one dropping it.

          Is he any better on the phone? (I know you want a paper trail, but that’s not really helping you because John doesn’t care and no one’s going to insist he stop wasting everyone’s time and clients’ money.) If you called him, would he conference in the client right then?

      2. TechWorker*

        +1 – unless there’s some written in stone rule that says you’re not allowed to email this person directly you save time by just responding to the client all on one thread.

    3. SwirlPencil*

      I had problems with sales reps and e-mails too. If the sales reps offered to give customers a special discount, they were supposed to enter the discount information into our system so that the discount could be processed, but sometimes they just didn’t put it in the system for whatever reason. So customers would reach out to ask why they hadn’t gotten a discount on an order, and they’d forward me the e-mail from the sales rep that promised the discount as proof. I’d then have to forward that to the sales rep and ask them to confirm that the customer should be getting the discount before setting it up in the system and giving them a credit myself. It would sometimes take weeks of reminders before getting a response, and the response was often asking for details about the discount (which I summarized in my e-mail, and pointed out that the sales rep’s original e-mail with more details was attached below).

      It’s like they read the title of the e-mail and then ignored everything else. Really sucks to have to keep telling customers that you’re still waiting to hear back from the sales rep about the discount they were promised.

    4. Asenath*

      I have no solutions, but as someone who uses email a LOT, I have noticed that many people either skim them or don’t look at them at all. I have tried various strategies to deal with this, but none of them work all the time.

    5. Bring Hawkeye to the Details*

      I have one of those. “Camilla” is my main point of contact for 90% of what I do. It’s incredibly frustrating. I have no advice, just a ton of empathy.

    6. Dr. Anonymous*

      Do you think you’d get any better response by putting the question in the subject line? (“What address to ship to?” “Should this order be for Y?instead?”) He’s probably reading the emails on his phone as they come in and never looking at them again. I mean, sure, he’s still a pain in the behind, but you probably can’t change that.

  212. sigh*

    Yesterday, at a quarterly meeting, the topic of whether or not we should start allowing employees to donate PTO was brought to the table. My manager spoke out in opposition of this by saying “Ideally this would be useful for employees who need additional time beyond maternity leave and in case of health issues, BUT what’s really going to happen is someone’s going to beg for PTO from coworkers when their dog dies.”
    I was so hurt by this comment. My childhood dog that’s been with me for the past 15 years passed away very recently. The timing of the comment just felt so directed at me. I did not come in the day my dog passed but I was in the office the next day. I’m struggling to not take this personally.
    Should I bother bringing this up with my manager or should I suck it up and move along?

    1. Jamie*

      I am so sorry for your loss. I don’t know how to get through to your boss, but know there are many of us out here who know exactly how heartbreaking and real the bereavement is.

      1. tangerineRose*

        I don’t know what you should do here, but I’m sorry about your dog. I took a personal day the day after my kitty died.

    2. Jan Levinson*

      That’s really hurtful, I’m sorry.

      It’s also weird that your manager would be against donating PTO because she’s worried about HOW someone would use their PTO time. PTO time (especially if classified as vacation) is meant to be used however the employee wants to use it. It’s not really her call to say whether your day off work was for a “good reason” or not as long as you used PTO.

      FWIW, I also took off work the day after my almost 15 year old childhood dog died.

      1. CupcakeCounter*

        While the comment about the dog was cruel, I think the manager is more concerned about employees using all of their PTO and then begging for extra from all their coworkers (similar to the people who crowdfund at work for their IVF or adoption funds where a one time “fundraiser” event is fine but not on a quarterly cycle) not policing how they use it.

    3. Nanobots*

      I’m so sorry! I took a day off when my sweet precious cat died, so I understand.

      It may not have been directed at you, unless she has a history of passive aggressive bullshit.

      FWIW: donating PTO days has complicated tax implications. That seems to be the most common reason why employers don’t go for it.

  213. ZarinC*

    I’m a college professor and I have student interns who work for me as lab aides. They assist with preparing solutions and reagents and setting up for lab classes, and often help out other students during the actual classes. There is no formal “dress code”–it’s a lab, after all. The only rules are legs must be covered (long pants) and no open-toed shoes. Generally, everyone, students and instructors alike, wear very casual clothing.

    My problem is one of the student lab aides has started wearing what I can only describe as “night out at the club” type outfits. Every day. She wears super short mini dresses with tights to get around the “legs covered” rule, and claims that heels are “comfortable” even though I think they’re a hazard in the lab. But since the heels are closed-toe, they technically don’t violate the rule.

    Please help me navigate this. I don’t want to be the fashion police and/or shame another. For the record, I am also a woman. But I find her dress very unprofessional and other professors have noticed, the students in the class notice, and I wonder if it affecting other’s perception of her work. What can I say when she’s technically not breaking the dress safety code? Feel free to tell me it’s none of my business and to butt out also. I am just unsure if there’s anything I could or should say.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Yes, she’s skirting the issue with the dress code. (pardon the pun)

      Unless there is specific language about the length of the skirt, or the safety of shoes (beyond closed-toe), I fear there isn’t much you can do here other than to address her specifically and in private that her clothing is too ‘clubby’ for the lab.

      I think you might have a better chance addressing the shoes though, because if it’s your lab, I would assume you could set a rule for no open toe and heels as they would be unsafe or a slip hazard in your lab (depending on what you do in there). Labs generally do have certain rules above and beyond the office dress code. Where I worked, one could not enter the lab without safety glasses, a lab coat, and closed toe shoes, even if you were just visiting the researchers to take photos. I’ve worked in other places where hard hats and long hair being tied back was the rule on the factory floor.

    2. Aurion*

      Is she not wearing her lab coat? In a past life I worked in chemistry labs and I’ve seen the gamut of clothes in labs. Most dress really casually in labs because clothes still can get damaged despite PPE but I’ve seen people wear nice stuff too.

      You probably can’t do much about the heels if she’s walking well in them (not tottering, tripping, or otherwise unsteady), and I’ve seen plenty of people wearing high heeled boots in labs. I would look askance at miniskirt and tights because you usually want something thicker, so that if you splash something corrosive that isn’t protected by the PPE (she is wearing that, right???) she has time to strip down before it eats through the fabric. I would bring that up if that’s a safety concern (not sure what kind of labs your students are doing).

      But if she’s following all the safety requirements, they’re her clothes to ruin.

    3. Robin Q*

      It seems like this isn’t really a safety issue-every lab I’ve worked in allows tights with skirts to count as legs covered. Plenty of people wear heels in lab safely (boots, etc) so it seems again like its the style that’s the problem. Student on-campus jobs are typically done for short periods of time a few days a week, and students usually go to them wearing their daily outfit. It seems like this student chooses to dress daily in clothes that you and your colleagues judge. There’s no need to share your judgement of her outfit with her.

      1. Parenthetically*

        She’s a student intern, though, and it’s reflecting on people’s perception of her professionalism. Surely it’s the job of the intern supervisor to highlight that for the intern, who is not out in the work world yet and hasn’t been introduced to professional norms. I don’t think it should be controversial to tell a student intern that it’s expected in professional environments to dress in attire that reflects the tone of the office/lab, and not in something one would wear out to a club, regardless of the gender of the person.

        1. gwal*

          I am not convinced that your post is even true. Plenty of people dress in attire that does not reflect the tone of a given office or lab, in my experience. Looking at a single individual in my office who wears a suit and tie every day would give you a very odd perspective on a place where almost everyone else wears khakis/button-downs or slacks/blouses/sweaters. Similar with a grad student in my lab who always wore athletic clothing. In some offices it’s clearly very homogeneous and sticking out could do an employee a disservice, but this sounds to me like the PI is actually being judgmental (particularly with reference to “night at the club”–maybe the outfits are too feminine and unserious for a True Scientist?)

          Plus the idea that students and professors notice a student’s outfits is…obvious? That’s not a definite ding.

          1. Parenthetically*

            Plenty of people dress in attire that does not reflect the tone of a given office or lab, in my experience. Well, the existence of individual outliers in your observation doesn’t make it bad advice to say “dress generally like the people in your office so your work stands out and not your clothes.”

            Miniskirts and super-high heels aren’t going to be appropriate for most offices. I’d say the same about men’s clubwear — super-tight pants and slick-looking, overly-unbuttoned, loud shirts or whatever are also inappropriate for most offices. It’s not “judgmental” to point that out, and I’d argue that allowing a student intern to continue in their career thinking their closet full of “night out” clothes is appropriate for office wear is doing them a disservice. If an intern were coming into the lab in elegant evening wear that technically followed the rules but was still… you know, evening wear, it wouldn’t be judgmental to say, “Hey, this doesn’t align with most office norms, and it’s going to stand in the way of people taking you seriously if you show up to work in a tux/gown because it comes across as so unusual.”

  214. AudreyParker*

    Late in the day, but thought I’d ask anyway: is anyone here involved in the “Salesforce ecosystem”?
    I have been job hunting for ages, and part of the problem is I never landed in a specific field or position where I developed a real focused expertise. Salesforce themselves really pushes the availability of training for Administrator and Developer roles and talks about how much opportunity there is in that job market, and I’ve spent some time in Trailhead. Just wondering whether getting this kind of cert is really as marketable as they position it. And/or whether it depends on what your background is — I’ve never had any exposure to it before, so would that mean my past experience does not position me well for getting involved in their certifications? Are you more likely to find them useful if you’re already in a role that works with the software?

    Trying not to spend a bunch of time getting Salesforce badges that are actually totally useless for someone in my current position, I’m just trying to find *something* I can learn with minimal financial outlay that will help me in the current job market!

    1. Nanobots*

      I’m interested in these replies. I specialize in a similar software, but wouldn’t mind making the jump into Salesforce.

      1. AudreyParker*

        I may have to try to remember to ask earlier next week! If you’re already familiar with similar CMS, it may make even more sense for you — it’s just hard for me to tell how much is SF hype about themselves vs reality for someone starting from scratch…

    2. Lemon Squeezy*

      Are you a dev? If so, I’d focus less on certs and more on a solid portfolio/maybe a small project or two you place on an app store if you’re feeling froggy. It’s always impressive if you can show that you understand the build process and can take the initiative to create/contribute, either with your own product or to open source.

      If not a dev, disregard, I only have minimal experience with Salesforce as a vendor, and on the tail end of the contract.

      1. AudreyParker*

        Unfortunately no :( My background is kind of project management, admin, and some other bits and pieces. I’ve been interested in some dev stuff, but think I’m probably too old to get a foothold there, plus looking for more immediate rewards on the job front right now. Honestly still trying to understand who uses Salesforce so much it’s this big a thing, so may not be the best candidate!

  215. Ann Onny Muss*

    Can anyone recommend a good pair of over-the-ear noise cancelling headphones? My officemate, while a very nice person, is very sniffly and it’s driving me batty. I figured some noise cancelling headphones, playing music, would help drown out the “sniff, sniff, snnnniiiiifffff.” TIA. :-)

    1. Nanobots*

      I admit, I sprung for one of the cheaper Bose sets. “Cheaper” is relative, I think they were about $200. they work like a dream.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      I just went though this. I tried a few pairs (got a small head) with mixed results. I recommend going to a BestBuy and trying a few higher end ones out as well and take note of the features you like. The factors for me were:

      >Active Noise Cancelling (for white noise/no music)
      >A separate microphone and not a mic built into the earpiece
      >Must work on my computer for work calls
      >Wired and Bluetooth options
      >Fit my small head! (that was harder than I thought)
      >Reasonable price

      After buying and returning two pair, I finally settled on a Plantronics Voyager Focus UC B825 unit. It does not work with my iPhone, but that’s OK, I mainly need this for the noisy open office. The Plantronics and Jabra headsets work better for VoIP calls and were cheaper than the Bose unit. There are a lot of nice headphones out there, but SO MANY had the microphone built into the earpiece, and when I tried to make calls, no one on the other end could hear me. Also, once I narrowed it down, I purchased used on Ebay for $90 (new was $159).

      Like I said, lots of options. I tried Active Noise Cancelling pairs that were $40 to $350, but the better ones run about $100-$150 range. If you don’t need the microphone and don’t want the the ANC and just want headphones, the price will be lower end (about $40-$50). But the ANC block was for me as I don’t listen to music at work and want to block distracting voices/noise.

    3. SarahKay*

      I like Shure earphones. They’re not actually noise cancelling, but the fit in your ear is very close so they act as earplugs. They come with earbuds in a range of sizes so you can find a size that’s comfy in your ear. The current pair I have were about £70 (so $100-ish) although you can pay a lot (lot!) more for the high-end ones.
      I’ve not tried noise-cancelling so I can’t compare them, other than the fact that these will use less battery as they’re using fit rather than electronics to deaden the outside sounds.

    4. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I have a pair of AmazonBasics Bluetooth headphones, ran about $50, and while they’re not actively noise cancelling they do muffle sound well enough that my husband comes in and starts talking to me and I jump three feet in the air about two minutes later because that’s how long it took me to realize he was there. (And he is not a quiet dude.)

    6. zora*

      I splurged on some nicer ones, the Sony noise-cancelling over ear bluetooth: WH-H900N was the model number. They are a little cheaper than the Bose, but still like 250, I think?

      But they are mentioned as being more comfortable than the Bose and if I am going to wear them pretty much all day, I need ones that don’t feel like they are squishing my head.

      And I am really happy with them. They are comfortable, they block out a lot of noise (Super annoying loud-talking office neighbors who just won’t stop talking all day). Even the noicecanceling feature without music playing blocks out a lot. But I do listen to music most of the time.

    7. Anon Phd*

      Bose QC35, yes they’re pricey, but omg they are worth EVERY SINGLE PENNY. I work in an open office that is LOUD like a bus terminal. They won’t block out human voice, but if you put on some music while the active noise canceling is on, the combo works well to partially mute even the loudest speaker. It will drown out the sniffler, GOOD LUCK.

  216. Coverage Associate*

    Email stuff has calmed down, but I still don’t like my job anymore. I have some applications out, and I feel it would be good to change before I hate my job. But I am the sole earner and my husband has taken the attitude that the devil I know is better than the devil I don’t.

    Also, I am up for partner next month if I stay but just don’t feel like I have the energy or qualifications.

    1. Dancing Otter*

      So your partner, who is not bringing in money, wants you to stay in a job that makes you unhappy? How’s the relationship otherwise?

            1. valentine*

              the devil I know is better than the devil I don’t.
              Is that his attitude about not doing paid work?

              If you need a partner who does paid work or who supports you emotionally, especially around your major stressor that he’s part of, are these things this guy is willing to do?

        2. Shiny Onix*

          He doesn’t get to tell you to stay in a job that’s making you miserable.
          Doesn’t he want you to be happy?!
          If what he’s saying is his opinion and he’s fine with your not listening, fine (although I still give it side eye) but if he thinks you should abide by his opinion, that brings me out in hives.

  217. Nanobots*

    Hey Open Thread,

    I’m really bad at humanning. When a coworker is visiting my satellite office, am I supposed to invite them out to do things at night like dinner or a basketball game or local sights? Am I missing out on a part of common courtesy?

    When I’m on work trips, I love nothing more than to steal away in my hotel room or explore placed on my own. But I realize that I’m weird and wasn’t raised with common social graces.

    1. Bunny Girl*

      I think how far away your coworker is from home would factor into this a lot. If they only have to drive an hour or two home, they might just want to get going. If they are spending the night, then maybe offer them stuff if you’re getting along with them. Make it very open ended so if they don’t want to go, they can easily back out.

    2. Kiwiii*

      Unless they really seem to express a want to go to dinner together, I wouldn’t assume that they’d want to do Extra activities with someone from work. Have lunch together and call it good. The exception would maybe be if they’re in town for 3 or more days — then a dinner or drinks out on the first or last day and/or maybe an activity might be more warranted.

      Taking queues from them is probably fine! And a soft offer like “hey do you want to get dinner at [ cool place] or are you looking forward to a night off?” might be fine also.

      Though, I’m definitely in the same boat as you, in that I want to hang out in my hotel room by myself with the best rated asian food within 10 minutes and a bottle of cheap wine. I know when I was last at a conference, a couple of my coworkers dragged me along to drinks and then were weird about me going off for dinner on my own, but they’re also Very outgoing/extroverted and can’t personally imagine spending a night not doing anything lol

    3. Pennalynn Lott*

      I think you can cover your “socializing with coworker” bases by just inviting them to lunch. At least then it’s not after hours. And you can give them tips like, “If you’ve got extra time, you really should check out the Llama Teapot Museum. Their collection of llama-shaped teapots and accessories is really something.”

    4. Jamie*

      I am more asocial than most, but fielding social invitations while on a work trip is my idea of hell.

      The only time I’ve seen this done on a regular basis is the upper levels of management entertaining the upper levels from the parent company when they come in from another country.

      1. Ann Onny Muss*

        ^This right here. About seven years ago, I was traveling back and forth to another state for work. I liked my coworkers but wanted nothing more than to get to my hotel room at the end of the day to relax and unwind. Fortunately, they also wanted to get home, so we would go grab lunch once a week, and on my last trip out there, they took me out.

    5. MissDisplaced*

      Hm,when I travel for business I don’t expect to be entertained in the city I’m in because I realize the people who live/work there have lives. But, usually a few people will go out to dinner one night, which can be nice.

      So when you have associates visiting, I might suggest you offer dinner one night, and maybe get a small group to go. But I don’t think you have to be obligated beyond that.

      1. Filosofickle*

        When I’ve traveled solo on business to another site, I’ve really wished someone would invite me to dinner. Just one! On my expense account! At least give me some recommendations on where to eat/go.

        I realize these are business colleagues with lives and maybe any socializing is too much to expect, but it would be a kindness. FWIW, I’m not someone who has trouble being or eating solo. I’m generally very comfortable with extended time alone, and I need a LOT of downtime. It just always feels like a missed opportunity.

        1. Filosofickle*

          Worth noting that it might make sense to ask if they want it. “Would you like us to arrange a lunch or dinner while you’re here, or would you rather explore the city on your own?”

          I have a friend that is forced into team dinners every night when she travels and HATES that. She’s like me, one would be nice but the rest can be downtime.

    6. AvonLady Barksdale*

      This depends on a ton of things! I once had co-workers visiting and we were friends, so I invited them out for dinner. (I actually invited them over to my house, but we were too late for me to start cooking so we just went out.) I’ve also done post-work drinks. At that company, visiting co-workers stayed at a hotel that was essentially in the middle of nowhere and they weren’t allowed to rent cars on the company dime, so we would all trade driving duties and I thought it would be nice to take them out. But there’s no obligation there. If they drop hints that they would like company and you like them, then invite them for drinks or dinner, but it’s really ok if you leave them to their own devices.

      1. MissDisplaced*

        I think it depends too on who comes and from where. Associates coming from overseas for a week might get a bit more entertainment or activities arranged than say associates from the US or Canada.
        Of course, many companies now are in cost containment mode, which puts the nix on too much discretionary travel spending.

    7. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I agree that lunch or at most asking them if they’d like to hit happy-hour after the office closes is enough! You are coworkers, you’re not schmoozing a client who’s in town visiting.

      So I would assume that they’ve traveled, they’re out of their element, they probably want to do less than more.

  218. Chronic Overthinker*

    Not sure whether I need advice or just need to vent. Been at NewJob for just over two months and getting close to 90 probationary period/mandatory meeting. Earlier this month I had a lot more side tasks, but due to medical leave and a few other things I have noticed my extra tasks have been a little on the lighter side and I have much more down time. I did end up having a informal meeting with the head admin and she said while I am doing fine at the [llama check-in] side of things, they are not seeing the progression they’d like on the [llama data] side of things. I asked for specifics and she was not able to provide them. So I feel like now the status of my job is in jeopardy due to the fact that the rest of the staff don’t trust me. She said I probably wouldn’t be getting a raise. Then she said we would be getting some new equipment in five weeks and learning it together.
    Then just yesterday I had a big event that while it was late to get started (out of my control) it went over well and I feel like I contributed and it was an overall success. I’m maybe just feeling overwhelmed by the lack of direction and no real manager to speak of. Essentially everyone above me is my manager and the person I am supposed to report to doesn’t work directly with me. Wondering if I’m just waiting for the other shoe to drop or if I should be more hopeful that promotion could come in the future with more training/diligence?

    1. Kiwiii*

      I wonder if there’s anything you can do to make sure you’re learning as much/interacting as much with the llama data as they’d like? Maybe specifically asking your manager to help you find people to help and/or if there are any materials you read up on if there’s nothing active you can help with. Also, if the down time is bothering you, it may do to ask if there’s any backlog you can help with or meetings you can sit in on, even just to shadow or take notes.

      Additionally, while you don’t work directly with the person you report to, maybe they’ll have a better idea of who can help you improve the skills you need to. I’ve started a few new jobs in the last couple years (a contract position, a foot-in-the-door position, and then the step-up-from-that position that that helped me get) and sometimes I really had to be proactive in making sure I learned the skills and got the work I needed.

    2. SarahKay*

      Is there a reason you would expect a promotion or raise so early in the job? It’s the sort of thing I wouldn’t expect until at least a year in, I guess. Is it something you were told would normally happen at the 90-day meeting?
      Nothing you’ve written sounds horribly alarming to me for a two-month-in-a-role person although your head admin doesn’t seem to be giving you very useful feedback. Just enough to worry about and not enough to be able to do something about! On the other hand, the fact that she clearly expects you to be there in five weeks time (and thus past the 90 days) sounds hopeful.
      Is there anyone else there that you get on well with that you could ask for tips on the llama data side of things? Or even just clearer feedback.

  219. Pennalynn Lott*

    Why on earth would a manager hire someone(s) and then treat them as if they are incompetent and untrustworthy? I mean, that’s a direct reflection on their hiring practices and ability (“I think this person is perfect for the job, they’re lazy and untrustworthy!”).

    I had a 1:1 with my VP in which I expressed my difficulty working with my Director (who is, as he looooves to point out, my “direct manager,” even though he doesn’t manage my day-to-day work — that’s done by a Senior Manager). She told me that “he is slow to trust people” and so I would need to “manage up.” WTAF. She didn’t seem to realize that “slow to trust people” means “treat them as inherently untrustworthy.” I’m only in my 4th month here and being treated like a criminal who is trying to get away with something has me looking for another job already.

    I just don’t get it.

    And, to be clear, it’s not just me. Three of us were hired at the same time and he treats two of us like we’re slackers who just want to steal the company’s time and money, despite our packed calendars and the work we’re obviously producing. (The third is a cutesy 2o-something who flirts shamelessly with him, so he doesn’t micromanage her time or require her to ask for permission to work from home occasionally, etc).

    1. MissDisplaced*

      I hate the ‘manage up’ mentality. No, it is not my job to manage the managers. If they’re that crappy at managing people, why are they managers then? If they’re good at some other aspect, then have them do that without managing people! So, I’m with you.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      To be fair, you do have to earn trust. But the person has to be readily willing to start trusting you at some point! So this Director sucks the big suck.

      I have made a career dealing with mostly independent business owners who have been burnt and burnt bad in the past by the person in charge of their financials. Yeah, embezzlement. So they’re so to trust and it’s taught me to be transparent AF in the end, which in turn gets them to trust me and adore me in the end.

      And especially since it sounds like to get his trust, you have to flirt with him…he’s a pile of frigging trash on another level. That kind of person uses trust as a weapon. Your boss sucks and he’s never going to change.

      Your VP is weak minded and bad at managing as well, since instead of doing their job and managing this person, they’re like “Nah just deal with it yourself.” Classic.

      1. Pennalynn Lott*

        I’ve always been of the impression that, by choosing to hire someone out of a pool of qualified candidates, you have already extended trust and it’s up to the new employee to not abuse that trust. But, damn, my boss’s attitude is “Tell me why I shouldn’t fire you right now.”

    3. Human Embodiment of the 100 Emoji*

      Ohhh my god, I’m literally having this exact same problem. I just started a job three weeks ago, my manager is the person who hired me, and he is constantly second-guessing my work and acting like I’ve proven that I’m bad at my job (which he knows next-to-nothing about my field, so I’m not even sure how he would be measuring my competence at the job…)

      I’ve gotten the feeling that he might be trying to cover up his lack of knowledge with this sort of posturing and criticism? Anyway, I’ve already written in to Alison asking about how to deal with the work aspect of this, but I just wanted to commiserate.

  220. Thankful for AAM*

    Mine does birthdays – but only one department in the large, open workspace does them. My department and the other one in the large shared space do not. Everyone can partake, just not everyone is feted.

    This means that on my birthday, a coworker in the birthday celebrating department with the same birthday as mine, has a party, but I don’t. I get to go and eat stuff, but the cake says “Happy Birthday other person” and there is awkward, happy birthday to you too Thankful! They all know it is my birthday and the person who shares my birthday brings it up a lot (in a fun way, I enjoy the comments) and there have even been comments all week like – hey, Thankful and Other Person both have a birthday on Friday, how amazing!

    I regularly fill the office candy bowl and bring food on all birthdays and events so it is not because I don’t do my part. Its just a weird thing about my office.

  221. Lemon Squeezy*

    Just wanted to reach out and give a big thank you to all the advice on negotiating here, both on the blog and in the comments. I’m a software engineer, and had been employed for a few months with a utility software company that was throwing up bouquets of technical red flags (NO UNIT TESTS. NONE.).

    So a recruiter reached out to me for a job that I felt was way above my level (SE3, I view myself as a high-level SE1/low-level SE2 and advertise myself for my varied backgrounds and ability to learn) for [Absurdly Large Company]. I decided to view it as practice and interview anyway. (Ways you guys rock #1)

    Recruiter comes back a few days after a second interview. The team I interviewed with said that they didn’t want me as an SE3 (totally fair, I completely agree). However, they liked me enough they wanted to open a position to me as an SE2 as a half-dev/half-documentation specialist workload (which is honestly a flippin’ DREAM).

    And instead of immediately giving in to the salary offer, which was admittedly fair for my low COL state, I decided to ask for 10k more. Ended up with 6k more and an extra 1000 of the annual stock distribution, which I wouldn’t have had without asking. (Ways you guys rock #2)

    In short: believe what you read! Negotiate!

  222. Therese*

    Does anyone feel like the interview processes at a lot of companies are just weird? I’ve had several interviews where I have this 15 minute phone screening with a random HR person that doesn’t really say much or know much about the job.

    They ask me about myself and then tell me about the company and ask if I have questions. Sometimes ask me why I want to leave which I hate b/c really the only reason I want to leave is b/c i’m severely underpaid.

    Then they tell me they will send my resume to the manager I would be working with who will want to interview me. And it just is like well if you can’t get past this gatekeeper I’m screwed. It also seems like a waste of time…like why can’t this other person just interview me?

    1. Lemon Squeezy*

      Ugh, I hate the “why are you leaving?” I always answer that I believe in considering an opportunity and seek chances for growth. (I just leave off “salary growth”)

    2. SwirlPencil*

      The phone screenings with random HR people are helpful because they cut down on the number of people who make it to the interview stage. It’s better to find out if there’s an obvious reason you wouldn’t be a good fit for the job before you and the hiring manager invest time in an actual interview. (Like, with the “why do you want to leave your current job?” question, if your answer is “I am severely underpaid,” then that might prompt them to ask what kind of salary range you’re looking for, and then if what you want is much higher than their salary range, then they’d know it wouldn’t make sense to interview you.)

      I’m wary of companies that don’t do phone screenings, because then the first interview is usually basic screening questions, and that feels like a waste.

      1. Mimmy*

        I agree with this, although the phone screen I recently had (with a large university) was with the office administrator at the department I’d applied with, not with HR. The only bad thing was that it was an unscheduled phone call during my lunch hour!! I felt so unprepared. Maybe companies feel it is too time consuming to have to schedule all of these phone calls, but still…. /end rant.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Interviewing in general is awful on every level, even as HR and a hiring manager, I promise you. It’s of course lower stakes over but we’re still all strangers, talking to each other and trying to do this stupid song/dance that is so awkward any way you slice it.

      It’s like going to a frigging speed-dating place sometimes it seems like!

      A reason behind HR being the gatekeeper is also to keep from wasting the hiring managers time. In reality, hiring managers rarely only spend their days interviewing/hiring people. These folks are running departments or at least teams along with doing important duties that make sure that their department is operating at their highest capacity.

      So HR is there to try to save them some time and energy. So they’ll do the first phone screen to make sure that you understand the listing, company and what we’re looking for. It’s hard to wrap your mind around as a job seeker who is very in tune with the fact you’re looking for a job, you’re doing your research and already read about the company right? So why are they wasting your time? It’s because about 4 out of 10 applicants I’ve ever dealt with don’t read the posting. They’re shocked when given the salary/hourly pay or what the job entails. I have to constantly make sure people understand they’re going to be dealing with large machinery and power tools and so many are utterly shocked, I tell you.

      So we are here to weed out the really confused bad-fit folks and pass the actual ones who will actually probably show up to an in person interview to the hiring manager to sort through on their own.

      1. Therese*

        That makes sense. I wish more jobs posted a salary range b/c I don’t even know what to say anymore b/c I’m so underpaid…like I should be making $15k more than I actually make a year but there are a lot of job listings that don’t want to pay that so it’s frustrating….so I want more than I’m making but don’t want to lowball or high ball them either.

        I’ve also been looking for new jobs for almost 3 years and just frustrated I still haven’t found much.

        But I’m with you especially as an introvert job interviews are just awkward.

  223. LGC*

    So I just found out two things this week:

    1) I’m going to our trade group’s state conference because…
    2) I won an award from them.

    I’m pretty happy about it but…I’m a little bit nervous since this will be my first time going to any sort of professional conference. Any tips? I’m just going for the day, since it’s about an hour away from me.

    2. juliebulie*

      Tip: If you see someone who s standing around alone and doesn’t look busy, introduce yourself.

      I am normally not a very outgoing person, but that’s what these things are for, and you can met some neat people that way.

      1. LGC*

        I’ll try to do that! Part of what’s a bit nervewracking is that…it seems like the conference is more for business development, and the bulk of my public-facing role is accounts receivable. I’m also introverted, so while I don’t think I’m bad at introducing myself…it is exhausting to me.

    3. WellRed*

      Bring business cards, just in case anyone asks. I’d also bring a snack in case the food is awful. If they have multiple sessions, plan in advance what you are most interested in and don’t be afraid to sit one out if you need a breather.

      1. LGC*

        Thanks for the advice!

        I don’t have business cards – formally, I’m a line supervisor (although at this point I’m also the accounts receivable department and a production analyst, and if you’re asking how I managed to end up doing all that it’s because I work at a nonprofit), and my position isn’t that public-facing for the most part. I’ve taken a look at the panels list and while I need to be at the awards luncheon – which is just going to be yet another experience, although I’m kind of used to just looking gangly in front of crowds at this point – it looks like there’s four for each block and at least one that I’m interested in during each block.

        And I’ll try to figure out a snack situation! It’s a bit more difficult for me, being a guy – I have more pockets, but fewer bags.

  224. Maureen*

    Advice on pushing back work tasks in a small team: recently I pushed back on taking on a one-off task as I genuinely didn’t have the time to do it. I was told by my boss to just do it and that the colleague wouldn’t ask if it wasn’t urgent. But in the same vein – I would not have pushed back if I wasn’t too busy. I have occasions when I get so many of these requests, I don’t have the time to do my proper job. (I am not the team secretary or support staff.) My boss often plays the ‘but we’re a team’ card and that I have to support the team. But the support isn’t reciprocated. And when we do project work, I’m often dumped with more than my fair share, if not all, of the low-level tasks, but not given a chance with the interesting parts. The team leave on time, I often don’t have that luxury. Any good phrases on how to get my push backs actually taken seriously?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I shivered at your description of your boss. Are your team members the opposite gender as you are, by chance? This reeks of sexism to me and that we can give you phrases all day long for you to throw at him but that boss is going to never bend and listen to you…

      The last boss I had that didn’t take “I’m actually way too busy to handle this task” ended up threatening to fire me. So I quit. There is no reasoning with psychopaths.

    2. Kathenus*

      Maybe change your strategy. Instead of pushing back on the task, let your boss know what you need to take of your plate or push back a deadline on to accomplish the additional job.

      So instead of “No, I don’t have time to do that”, you could try “Boss, I’ve been asked to do X task by Fergus. Just letting you know that Y task will be put on the back burner by a week to accommodate my getting X done.”

    3. annony*

      Have you tried pointing out how late you end up staying? “To be honest, I don’t really feel like we are a team. I end up having to stay until X to get all these tasks done while everyone else leaves at Y. If this task is urgent, I really need the rest of the team to pitch in and help.”

  225. Ann Onny Muss*

    I’m curious on what people consider to be job-hopping. I’ve been with my company for ten years. But I’ve moved internally five times now. My shortest stint was a year, but that was always a shorter-term stretch assignment. My longest stint has been three years. At around the three year mark, I start getting bored and want to do something else. A coworker says this is job-hopping and he would not hire anyone with this kind of track record. I say times have changed and it’s common to change jobs more frequently. A former manager, current manager, and a manager who I do not report to agree with me. So, I’m curious and throwing this out to the AAM commentariat: what do you consider to be job-hopping and why?

    1. EA in CA*

      Internal moves doesn’t count as job-hopping in my books. It’s been within the same company, just different departments/teams. If you were moving around to different companies that would be more like job hopping.

      1. EA in CA*

        Ooops, hit enter too fast.

        If, for example, in the span of 10 years you changed companies 5+ times and only had short stays at each company (under 2 years), and it wasn’t explained as either a temp or contract position, I would see that as a pattern of job hopping.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      If it’s the same company and it’s upward motion, then it’s not job hopping. If they’re a bunch of lateral moves, it’s not necessarily job-hopping but it does start sending off some bells about why you’re dancing around the same level in so many locations.

      Times have changed and people do leave jobs more often and frequently than before. However, job hopping is still an issue that some hiring managers will see as a huge flag and simply pass on candidates due to that track record.

      It’s one of those things, like just about everything else in hiring, it drastically depends on who is hiring and what they’re looking for. Sadly there’s no universal playbook we go by, we go by gut and a wing and a prayer at times it seems. So it may or may not be an issue to whomever you send a resume to next! You will probably never really know either way in the end. So I’d just continue to do what you want and find the places that respect your decisions!

  226. CSmithy*

    I’m not sure if I’m just looking for someone to tell me this will all work out or what, but anyone have experience transitioning from a small, highly flexible startup to a large, rigid, corporate firm? I just did it and I’m struggling tremendously with the culture shift. Any suggestions on how to adapt, AND, importantly, things that you didn’t realize would be positive shifts in switching to a more corporate environment?

    I’m terrified that I’ve made a huge mistake, and I know I should give it time, but I’m already crying about how uncomfortable I feel, and I am NOT a crier.

    1. AudreyParker*

      Not exactly the same, but my most recent full-time history was at a small, flexible startup-like place and after leaving I ended up with a temp assignment at a Very Large Corporation. I hadn’t thought in advance about what a change it would be. I was lucky my immediate supervisor was pretty chill about a lot of things, at least. But just mastering the sheer volume of systems needed to function within the company (forget about the job) was pretty overwhelming, so you may be feeling some of that? Especially since it all gets dumped on you at once if you’re a permanent new hire. If so, just know it does get better, you do eventually start figuring it out, and it’s ok to ask for help or look into training resources. One of the positive shifts was finally *having* resources: I’d gotten so used to never having money for anything, often having to be my own help desk, it was nice to have someone to call when I was having technical issues, or actually be able to order something I needed. They also had a ridiculous amount of training opportunities and workshops, discounts, events. If you were at a well-funded startup maybe this wouldn’t be as noticeable, but for me it was like OMG YOU HAVE A CAPPUCCINO MACHINE :D Can validate your culture shock, though, I think I was just starting to get used to it by the time I left, 6 weeks in.

      1. CSmithy*

        Thank you for this. The resources element is a really good point — there were definitely things we couldn’t do at my last company due to both human and budgetary resource limitations, and I don’t think that’s an issue at the new org.

        Thank you for the validation, though. ;) It makes me feel better to hear that you were starting acclimate before that position ended.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I can’t help you out because moving into a big rigid corporate firm is literally my nightmare.

      But I do say that you have to trust your heart and trust yourself. If it turns out you’re not a fit for that culture it’s OKAY. It’s okay to have made a mistake. Startups and small companies are still here!!! YOU CAN ALWAYS COME BACK! So try your darndest to make that job work but don’t feel lost and hopeless if it turns out that it’s just not what you’re cut out for. Time will tell.

      These are the things you don’t know until you’ve given it a spin. You aren’t stuck. Just remember that and it tends to lessen the fear factor involved.

      1. AudreyParker*

        Exactly. Part II of my post would be that it was also a good experience because I realized I was way more comfortable in a smaller company, which is a good thing to know moving forward. But I never would have fully understood that had I not spent some time in the corporate environment. It also gave me exposure to some things I had no experience with in the smaller environment that is helpful moving forward, even if I move back to a startup. So it’s all good in the end, either way.

      2. CSmithy*

        Thank you so much for the advice. I think it was the “feeling stuck” that was really hitting me, and I think keeping that in the back of mind will definitely help me acclimate better (and keep my eyes open if it turns out to really not work for me).

    3. The Other Dawn*

      Unfortunately, I don’t have anything good to say about my one experience with a large, rigid, corporation. I live for the small company where I have flexibility and I know my coworkers (I don’t mean I’m friends with them. I mean I’m friendly with them and know their names.)

      I spent many years at very small community banks. Although things were tough at the first small bank–a one branch start-up–because of lack of resources, that was also a plus for in the long term for me, because I learned SO much and got to do lots of different things. There was tons of variety and lots of flexibility. The bank closed and I went to a bigger bank, though still considered pretty small–only eight branches. It was a HUGE culture shock to me, because it seemed impossible to know everyone, know who to call, etc. Then I moved on to an even bigger community bank (still small–24 branches) and it was much easier. The down side was being focused on only one area, rather than being Jill-of-all-trades like I was at the first bank. The upside was having resources, a good budget, and a great culture with lots of perks. That bank was bought by what is bordering on a large bank–multi-state, though not national. UGH, I hated it. I was so glad I didn’t get a job offer from that bank (I was there for about eight months after the announcement). It seemed like one job was broken up into three different people. Departments were huge and it was hard to figure out who to call for what. The approval process was just so long and drawn out. It took forever to get one document signed. Terrible communication. When an employee had an issue with their own debit card, they were told to call the 1-800 number. And that department was DOWN THE HALL! It was hard to feel like I was an important part of the company. Unfortunately there really wasn’t anything I liked about that bank.

      I would say give it several months, at least. It’s most definitely a huge culture shock and it’s tough to work through. See if you can job shadow a few people in different departments so you can see what they do and get to know them. If they have social events, go to a couple. Yes, it’s awkward, but you’ll get to meet a few more people and see what the company is really like.

      1. CSmithy*

        Thank you for this! All really good advice (and relatable observations — huge departments are definitely throwing me for a loop. My new team alone is like 4x the size of any I’ve worked on, hahaha.)

    5. Miranda Priestly's Assistant*

      Sort of. I never worked at a start up, but historically worked at small organizations and companies as a contractor before transitioning to a bigger, moderate sized firm with departments and stuff. I dislike a lot about it, but not sure if I would call it rigid? To its credit, the company is pretty lax/flexible about schedules (like if you come in at 9:02, no one is going to flog you.) However, the staff structure is such that you do have to give multiple supervisors minute-by-minute details all day every day. As someone who was basically working as an independent consultant in the past, I find this very annoying and micromanaging. I don’t feel like I have as much autonomy in my work as I did in the smaller orgs, and thus can’t exercise as much creativity. I find it pretty stifling and am definitely looking for another job.

  227. yams*

    This is very dumb, but for two years I’ve been working with only a 13″ laptop–no mouse, no keyboard, no external monitor– because the GM is too cheap to authorize buying equipment for people (unless it’s for him, of course). A month ago my boss sent around an email asking who wanted a mouse, a keyboard and a monitor and I said: “Sure, I would like some.” I got them in the mail today, I was way beyond overjoyed! (The GM was pissed, but my boss is from corporate and all my expenses are billed to corporate anyway). I’m not going to lie, it’s a very dumb thing to be happy about but I’m very, very happy to finally have something other than my 13″ laptop.

    1. Frustrated Assistant*

      That isn’t dumb. 13″ is really small and can be a challenge to work with. You did good pulling it off for two years! Sad that the GM didn’t think that his employees deserved the appropriate tools to perform their jobs.

      1. valentine*

        Especially if we are talking about your personal laptop, why not call your boss and say you never got a proper computer and how soon could he make that happen? And can he politely tell off the GM in a way that doesn’t blow back on you?

    2. Bilateralrope*

      I’m impressed you put up with it for so long.

      I’d have probably purchased a cheap keyboard and mouse within the first month, with no intention of being reimbursed. Or the weekend after my first request for my employer to buy one gets turned down.
      A small price to ensure good posture and avoid later health problems.

  228. Frustrated Assistant*

    VP is going out of town and normally have managers serve as delegate. All of the managers were going to be out of office. I sent out an email saying he’d be out of town and that there wasn’t a delegate. Went on to further say he could be reached by email. Of course it was worded more professionally, but he took offense to it. Thought it made him look bad and that others would think “you couldn’t get anybody in your department to be delegate?” Well, he could have but he chose not to (I asked).

    I’ve struggled with this VP for the time I’ve worked with him. He was talking to me a certain way until I had a talk with him. He micromanages all the time and recently threw me under the bus. He repeated something I told him regarding another employee that I asked him not to repeat. He told him!! He tends to not give his employees and others credit for having sense. When discussing how It came across, it was his own perception/opinion of how things would be perceived. He wants to tell me EXACTLY what to say or how to say it….I am serious word-for-word. He wanted me to say that I agreed that it was wrong sending the email but I didn’t feel it was. I let him know that I understood his position and that it wouldn’t happen again.
    When he does things towards me that have been disrespectful or rude, he expects me to let it go. But today he was still mad about the email and didn’t interact with me with the exception of a text – two words.

    This position is a promotion for me and I have over 30 years experience. I’ve been in this role almost 2 years. There are things that are new for me and I am open to learning. But with this person I find myself questioning a lot of what I do. It doesn’t feel like a fit.

  229. StuckInScranton*

    I’m a middle manager at a paper company. We recently hired a new person, Pam, to cover the phone during meals. I oversee sales and have been desperately looking for a new team member. We’re incredibly short-staffed and the paper business really picks up this time of year.

    I see some wonderful qualities in Pam, so I approached her about moving to our department. She seemed genuinely excited. We spoke with Toby in HR to get the ball rolling.

    The next morning, the head of our branch, Michael, called me into his office. He said that I “need to stop fishing in my own pond” for a new team member. He told me that Pam cannot move to my team, as there has been a hiring freeze for her department and the role cannot be filled again until next year. I was taken aback, as Toby hadn’t mentioned this. I knew that seasonal freezes are approaching, but was under the impression that all departments freeze at the same time in about two weeks.

    This morning I planned to meet with Michael and plead my case. My department makes the majority of the money for our branch and needs a full team to maintain this standing. To elaborate, we’re the only department that is “in the black”. However Michael unexpectedly went to the Bahamas for a long weekend. I also found out that the freeze does go into effect for all departments in two weeks. This means Michael lied to me about his reasons for keeping Pam.

    My question is this: should I call Michael out on his lie when he returns? Can I leverage this, plus the fact that my team is the most valuable to the branch, into a position for Pam on my team? Finally, I have another manager, David Wallace, who oversees my business but not our branch. Should I get him involved, as this affects him too?

    1. StuckInScranton*

      Also, Michael manages our branch and David is the regional director of paper sales. They both work for Dunder Mifflin, but don’t answer to each other. I’m not sure if David can have any say about staffing at our branch.

    2. annony*

      Is it easier to find someone for her current position than for the position on your team? If so, treat his lie as a misunderstanding and tell him that you confirmed that the hiring freeze goes into effect in two weeks. Then say that given the time constraints, it would be easier to find a replacement for her at her current position than on your team. If he still won’t budge you should probably give in. If you aren’t sure that David has the authority to overrule your manager on staffing issues I wouldn’t bring him into it. Trying to go over someone’s head and failing rarely ends well.

  230. Trainingwoes*

    Feeling frustrated. I’m training someone and I thought they were a lot further along. He has trained in a couple other departments before mine and they do similar stuff so I made an assumption that he knew more than was is fact. Some of the questions I’m running into are very rudimentary and honestly just stuff that my brain couldn’t have anticipated especially when I’m the last place he’s supposed to be at before being done with all his training. He’s also leaving right on the dot, with stuff needing to be done. Had to stay very late cleaning up a mess. I have a 1-1 with my manager on Monday and planning on bringing it up then.

    1. WellRed*

      Is he paid to stay beyond the dot? Does he have an obligation that means he can’t stay beyond the dot? Even if the answer to both is no, please focus on the learning aspect.

  231. Dr Useless*

    Thank you to everyone who responded to my comment about having to postpone a job interview because of sickness. I had the interview on Wednesday and have already received an invitation to a second round interview :)

  232. Zephy*

    My bosses have now both, separately, outlined the transition plan to move me up from being a Coordinator to being an Analyst. We’re bringing in a transfer from another site to take over most of the QA work that my boss is currently mired in, so as to free up some time for her to train me. Their plan is to train me first on new accounts, focusing on a group that I’m already partly responsible for anyway, and the timing should work out such that by the time my review rolls around in January, I should be trained and that’s a convenient opening to file the paperwork to promote me.

    What I’d like to avoid is spending any significant length of time doing the Analyst work with the Coordinator’s title and salary. I don’t think it’s going to be a problem, necessarily, like I don’t believe my bosses will let me trundle along doing Analyst work and continue putting off the official promotion indefinitely, but I do know that my predecessor was basically an Analyst in all but name (and presumably pay grade, but I have no way of knowing that) by the time she left. I don’t know if she maneuvered herself into that role or if she was pushed in that direction, but she also left to go backpacking around Europe or something along those lines. A primary reason I’m interested in this promotion at all is that it will give me a clearer title (“coordinator” is vague enough on its own; in context, it’s really not obvious what I actually do if all you see is my title and place of work) and a pay bump. It’ll also show advancement, but I’ll likely have to explain that the next time I find myself interviewing. Which I hope won’t be for a while, but I expect will be sometime in the next five years or so.

    Just in case anybody’s still looking at the open thread on Saturday, for the sake of discussion: how would one negotiate salary when receiving a promotion, if that’s even worth doing? I kind of get the sense that it’s not something I can or should do in this situation. I don’t really have anyone I could fairly compare myself to when it comes to judging my compensation package. I’m the most junior person in the office with the least experience as an Analyst. My boss gave me a number when she asked if I was interested in the promotion initially, so I know what they’re planning to pay me, and it is about a 15% increase from where I am now, which isn’t terrible. I know Alison has said the best time to negotiate is when you’re initially offered a job, and I’m a little worried that I’ve hobbled myself at this job by not really negotiating anything wrt salary and benefits when I started. This is my first full-time job with benefits; I had no real context to know if the offer was fair, and definitely could not leverage what I was getting at my last job as a comparison.

    1. WellRed*

      You can still negotiate for a raise when it’s a promotion but if they are already bumping you 15 percent that’s a pretty big bump, unless you know you are severely underpaid. I’d make sure you have a clear understanding on both sides what the timeline is for all of this.

  233. Sanity Lost*

    Getting a job when you’re “overqualified”.

    HELP! A few years ago, my life fell apart (sudden divorce) and I am now the single parent/breadwinner. I decided it was time to get my act together and get into a career vs. Temp/retail work. Already had my MBA and with my parents help, studied and obtained my SHRM-CP. Having found and followed your site’s excellent advice on resumes and cover letters, I landed an awesome job with great prospects. Due to the previous management, the back office and HR was almost non existent or at best a total disaster. I rolled up my sleeves and for the 1st year built the HR and overhauled the operations systems. Then 3 months ago, the company closed its doors. The owner had overextended the company credit and it could no longer sustain itself.
    So back to the drawing board.
    Due to the fact that I only, technically speaking, have 18 months recent experience in HR. I decided that it would be best of I looked for Generalist positions, as I know there is still a lot I dont know. Therein lies my current dilemma. The company’s I interview with, as well as recruiters keep declining me stating that ‘you have too much experience, and will be unhappy here after a year”
    NO I Won’t!!! I’m working retail again to make ends meet.
    I’ve left off my MBA and don’t even bring it up anymore. I REALLY want to work HR again, but don’t know how to overcome this hurdle.

    Help?!

    1. Bstar0306*

      ugh this is so frustrating and I hear about it all the time! I hate how companies are making decisions for employees. Like how do they even know? I have no advice just solidarity.

    2. WellRed*

      Not clear on how 18 months translates to too much experience, especially since that isn’t stopping them from interviewing you. Is there something about your interview style? Not sure what that would be…over confident? Dunno but worth asking yourself.

      1. Sanity Lost*

        I’ll work on the possible overconfidence. Maybe I bragged a little too much on what was accomplished? In that 18 months A Lot was done. Granted this was a small company (only 6 employees), however the owner wanted to look at expanding and asked me to write the policies towards that. Plus wanted it ISO compliant. So I wrote the employee handbook, all HR policies were documented, a full filing system for the company (that was fun) was implemented, and documented all operational tasks.

        I am very proud of that work, but it seems to be turning employers off. Should I scale it back?

        1. WellRed*

          You sound amazing but to get your foot in the door, you may have to dial it back so they don’t think you’ll get bored. Or, apply for higher level positions.

  234. Decima Dewey*

    So at our cluster(f**k) meeting on Thursday we had Sexual Harassment Prevention Training. Except for a few announcements at the beginning, the entire 10 to 12 meeting was devoted to explaining the policy. After the meeting someone sent all attendees the Powerpoint Slides.

    The policy is ten pages long, gives examples of things employees shouldn’t do, and each list of examples includes the words “including but not limited to”.

    The main takeaway is that we should all be mindful of the effect our words and actions have on coworkers. And that the days when what you did after you leave the workplace had nothing to do with the workplace are gone. If it has an impact on the workplace, it doesn’t matter if it happened at the circulation desk or at a bar a group of coworkers went to after the library closed, the City may be liable. If something is reported to a manager or supervisor, they must listen *without judging* to the complaint. Managers and supervisors have a duty to take affirmative steps when presented with an issue–they have to report the issue themselves. Telling the employee to contact HR is not sufficient. Managers and supervisors are also held to a higher standard, and discipline will be stricter for them.

    Also, sexual favoritism is a component of sexual harassment. If a manager and a subordinate are romantically involved and the subordinate gets special treatment, you know who has a cause of action for sexual harassment? Every person in the department whose latenesses aren’t getting excused, who get the crappy schedules, or who get written up for things the lover gets away with. So if you are a manager/supervisor and are in a relationship with a subordinate, own up to it and one of you will be moved. You cannot professionally evaluate someone you’re having sex with.

    There was pushback in the room during the training. “So you’re saying that we have no private lives at all?” No, that’s not what labor relations guy said. This is *where the law is now* and is subject to change.

    All in all a good training, but I can foresee trouble ahead. And have a fair idea who’s likely to cause it.So at our cluster(fuck) meeting on Thursday we had Sexual Harassment Prevention Training. Except for a few announcements at the beginning, the entire 10 to 12 meeting was devoted to explaining the policy. After the meeting someone sent all attendees the Powerpoint Slides.

    The policy is ten pages long, gives examples of things employees shouldn’t do, and each list of examples includes the words “including but not limited to”.

    The main takeaway is that we should all be mindful of the effect our words and actions have on coworkers. And that the days when what you did after you leave the workplace had nothing to do with the workplace are gone. If it has an impact on the workplace, it doesn’t matter if it happened at the circulation desk or at a bar a group of coworkers went to after the library closed, the City may be liable. If something is reported to a manager or supervisor, they must listen *without judging* to the complaint. Managers and supervisors have a duty to take affirmative steps when presented with an issue–they have to report the issue themselves. Telling the employee to contact HR is not sufficient.

    Also, sexual favoritism is a component of sexual harassment. If a manager and a subordinate are romantically involved and the subordinate gets special treatment, you know who has a cause of action for sexual harassment? Every person in the department whose latenesses aren’t getting excused, who get the crappy schedules, or who get written up for things the lover gets away with.

    There was pushback in the room during the training. “So you’re saying that we have no private lives at all?” No, that’s not what labor relations guy said. This is *where the law is now* and is subject to change.

    All in all a good training, but I can foresee trouble ahead. And have a fair idea who’s likely to cause it.

  235. Decima Dewey*

    So at our cluster meeting on Thursday we had Sexual Harassment Prevention Training. Except for a few announcements at the beginning, the entire 10 to 12 meeting was devoted to explaining the policy. After the meeting someone sent all attendees the Powerpoint Slides.

    The policy is ten pages long, gives examples of things employees shouldn’t do, and each list of examples includes the words “including but not limited to”.

    The main takeaway is that we should all be mindful of the effect our words and actions have on coworkers. And that the days when what you did after you leave the workplace had nothing to do with the workplace are gone. If it has an impact on the workplace, it doesn’t matter if it happened at the circulation desk or at a bar a group of coworkers went to after the library closed, the City may be liable. If something is reported to a manager or supervisor, they must listen *without judging* to the complaint. Managers and supervisors have a duty to take affirmative steps when presented with an issue–they have to report the issue themselves. Telling the employee to contact HR is not sufficient.

    Also, sexual favoritism is a component of sexual harassment. If a manager and a subordinate are romantically involved and the subordinate gets special treatment, you know who has a cause of action for sexual harassment? Every person in the department whose latenesses aren’t getting excused, who get the crappy schedules, or who get written up for things the lover gets away with.

    There was pushback in the room during the training. “So you’re saying that we have no private lives at all?” No, that’s not what labor relations guy said. This is *where the law is now* and is subject to change.

    All in all a good training, but I can foresee trouble ahead. And have a fair idea who’s likely to cause it.

  236. very grateful person*

    I’m enrolled in one of the 100+ federally recognized Native American tribes in California. Yesterday was California Native American Day, and so I’m feeling good about having been among some friends who got to put Native culture front and center and be celebratory.

    I’m posting to follow up on the September 25th, 2019 discussion about the use of the expression ‘low man on the totem pole.’ I do want to encourage people to find other ways to express being on the bottom of a hierarchy, the bottom of a ladder, having the lowest priority or prestige. The expression shows ignorance of Native cultures that do have totem poles in their culture. The expression originated and was popularized by the 1941 book, “Low Man on a Totem Pole,” by the non-Native, American author H. Allen Smith. The expression has nothing to do with any real information about totem poles, and each use is one more tiresome instance of seeing Native culture minimized and misunderstood.

    Here are three Native composed collections of expressions we’d like to see go obsolete.

    1. very grateful person*

      My links went missing, so I’ll just cite one of the sources for now.

      Reese, Debbie. “Problematic Phrases.” American Indians in Childrens’ Literature. Blog. 2016.

  237. Shay*

    My department head told me that she thought my BFA thesis exhibition was going to be too much work, it involves building false walls in order to gouge scars into them.

    I’ve been involved in building walls before, but that was before I was disabled.
    Now I have to write up a new proposal.

    I really understood what I wanted to do with this one, but, ugh.

    I’ll also be presenting the proposal to the entire department Wednesday. I’m so tired.

    1. Woman of a Certain Age*

      It sounds interesting and I can understand your disappointment at having to start over. True creativity has to do with finding creative ways of working within limitations and I’m sure you’ll think of something that doesn’t involve building false walls. I’m not sure if being tired is a help or not, but maybe take some time to brainstorm and sleep on it before starting on that new proposal. You’ve got a couple of days, still. That said, don’t wait any longer than Tuesday to get the proposal done.

  238. Anon Phd*

    Folks, I need some survival strategies and a good assertive response. I’ve posted before here about my completed PhD (yay x 1000). I also work full time at, let’s say..teapot manufacturing, in an engineering role, kind of close to quality control (I cannot specify further because my job is kind of niche). And folks, the pressure at work is BRUTAL lately and toxic to complete a project that ppl are losing their minds over, mostly grand grand bosses, and likely because there is a bonus attached as the customer won’t see this advanced teapot until well into next year for many reasons. There’ve been multiple layoffs in the first half of this year. Many dotted line grand bosses are slinging mud at each other because they know one will probably be let go next year. The antics of those grand bosses are stressing out my direct boss and grand boss; they’re good guys but partly spineless. The dotted line grand bosses wanted me to generate a daily report on the progress of a major project. I do it, but sometimes there are small inconsistencies because it contains A LOT of info and some of that info flows very quickly mostly via panicky emails from ppl scared of their angry grand bosses and I don’t get notified or I get notified late of updates. Plus my workload is heavy so honestly, it is almost impossible to catch some things..not making excuses, the place is chaotic, last week was particularly bad. And yes, I am actively job searching, networking, you name it, but as we all know here, job searching takes time.
    So, that daily report – my jumpy boss asked to make it “as perfect as possible/please make it perfect so angry grand boss doesn’t email me”. How do you respond to something like that?? Assertively and firmly. The boss usually backs down when I use logic, facts and a serious tone….I mean he himself has made mistakes in it (the daily report is a shared document and sometimes he makes small updates). And perfection is impossible in this environment, I really do the best I can, but the demands are over the top. The angry grand bosses also get mad when I don’t forward emails within like 15 mins from an outside quality entity…which tbh is a tall order if I am working on another project that is also time sensitive. And no one will relieve me of my duties, I can’t renegotiate the workload because my teammates are all overloaded and they’re not hiring new ppl. The place is a mess, it’s impacting my digestion and sleep, not exaggerating. The only partial respite is that I do get thank you emails for my effort from my boss and grand boss, so I’m not at risk of getting fired or anything, but OMG THE STRESS.

    Also, any other survival strategies would be appreciated. I meditate, and exercise, but not always daily. I’m working on finding a new therapist (my supergreat one retired).

    Thanks very warmly for any advice.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I hope you see this.
      “So, that daily report – my jumpy boss asked to make it “as perfect as possible/please make it perfect so angry grand boss doesn’t email me”. How do you respond to something like that??”

      I know how I’d handle that. Productivity is a moving target. It’s not always possible to count things in process.
      I worked in a manufacturing setting, so if this sounds simplified it’s because this is what I have. Around 2-3 pm the boss would come out and look at the completed units. So her check point was 6 hours of the current day and 2 hours of the previous day. That became her comparative basis.

      You could do something like have everyone collect their status info at 2 pm and get it emailed to you by 2:30. Compile the report and pass it over to the boss at (whatever your time frame is for compilation.) This would give the big boss a solid basis for comparisons, as they would have outputs from each day as of 2 pm. (My times assume a work day from 8 am to 4:30 pm. You might have to adjust your time frames.)

      Tell your boss since people are constantly producing, the outputs are in constant change. The best you can do is give him a snapshot of where things are at for a given time. In order to have perfect numbers people would have to stop entirely and wait for the Big Boss to read his email. Then the numbers would match what is happening right now. Once read, they could resume work.
      If you think this is too complex and the bosses won’t get this, then calculate how much time goes into everyone making their tallies and reporting to you. That was time that could have been spent doing something meaningful.

      As to how to survive, the number one thing is to recognize this is what abuse of power looks like. These aren’t bosses, these are abusers. They thrive on beating people with their words and their mood swings. In short, they have absolutely NO management skill whatsoever. Zilch. People who lack management skills resort to these techniques.

      Sadly, I became aware that there are bosses out there who sincerely believe that angry people work harder. You should have seen the look on their face when I said, “That’s not true. Angry people make more mistakes and have more accidents.” The boss had never heard this before. You might point this out to your boss to give her words when she argues with her own boss.

      If you are using a therapist to cope with work, then probably others are also. You might point that out to your boss if you can work it into conversation. “People are going into therapy to cope with all that is going on here.”

      Another super important thing to realize is from what you say here, I read it as, “This is a company that is going under.” This management by chaos is not a long term plan and it is very self-defeating. The company will unravel itself.

      If you can quit without a job lined up, do so. No job is worth ruining your health over. Here’s a secret. The damage stays inside your body long after you have quit the job. There is no salvaging these people here. All you can do is salvage you and your future health.

      Check out some natural ways to help with digestion and sleep. Barebones, get something for your stomach. In protecting your stomach you may find that your sleep issues get a bit better. Stomachs can mess up a lot of other stuff, for example, if you get something to help your stomach, you might find yourself feeling like you are making stronger decisions. Odd stuff is all connected.

      I can hear the panic, okay, “terror”, in your writing. I hope you get out of there soon. Life does not have to be this hard.

      1. Anon Phd*

        I saw your response, and I hope you see my sincerest thank you. I am sending you a big internet hug for your advice; your advice is so thorough and full of compassion, it’s heartwarming. So I can’t afford to quit the job without another one lined up, unfortunately. I have bills to pay along with substantial student loans. I’d have to move in with my parents if I quit my job and that would drive me bananas on many levels (they’re generally good people but behave like children, which is draining). I thankfully have good friends and connections that are onboard with helping me out to find a new job; I recently got an especially good job lead so I am hopeful (and will likely post here about the job search too sometime :) ). The fact that you described what’s happening at my work as abuse of power is so SPOT ON. Many ppl there are weirdly brainwashed and think that these grand bosses do a good job…yikes. Anyway, as you say I am out to save myself, not others. THANK YOU so very very much again, have a good week.

  239. CrazyKetoLady*

    I’m a bit late to the party here, so hopefully someone can help.

    Is anybody familiar with the laws regarding the timeliness of contributions to simple IRA retirement accounts (not 401K)? My employer is not making timely contributions. (As in since I have opted in, there have been an average of 2 or 3 contributions made to my account, plus a large deposit with the employer’s contributions at the end of the year.) My contributions are still deducted from each paycheck.

    My employer is obviously aware that I have noticed, as I have brought it up before (when my account had a zero balance after I’d been enrolled for five months, I asked whether I had forgotten to sign something). My employer is having cash flow problems, but that shouldn’t have an impact on my contribution, should it?

    If it matters, I work for a small company (there have never been more than 20 regular employees at a time since I’ve worked there) in WA. I’m trying to figure out whether I have any recourse that doesn’t involve confronting my (very defensive) employer. I know that if this were a 401K, I could request a form 5500 (I think that’s the number).

    (Also, I suspect that I know the answer to this, but nothing good would come from asking my colleagues whether they’ve had the same issue, would it?)

    1. Enough*

      Did a little google.
      IRS info on simple IRAs.
      wwwdotirsdotgov/retirement-plans/simple-ira-plan-faqs-contributions

  240. The Kat*

    This week I was happy to have met a potential employer at a networking event who has open positions in my line of work. She gave me her card and said to email her and she would send me an invite to apply for the position online. I went to the online application, and was met with a pre-qualifying question that threw me. It stated that if they were extend a final job offer, I will be asked to arrange reference calls. In the case that I were currently employed, I would have the option to schedule a reference call after having accepted a job offer.

    Has anyone ever heard of having to call your own references beyond the typical heads up you would give them that you’re job searching and that they should expect to hear from the employer soon? Why would they not just accept a list of references with contact information and reach out themselves?

      1. The Kat*

        Regarding my second paragraph, I would like to think that’s what they mean. If that’s the case, it seems weird to spell it out and ask you to agree to it before you apply. The candidate will agree to “schedule” or “arrange” a reference call with past managers (or the current, if you accept the offer) has me reading it literally. How does a candidate do that without knowing the potential bosses’ calendar because you don’t work for them? Would you say to your former bosses when you are giving the head’s up, how is 3pm on Friday? Let me check with the potential boss/hiring manager if that works for them. It seems like an unnecessary extra step.

        I do have the contact’s email.

        Assuming I’m reading it right, do you think that’s unusual?

  241. valentine*

    You can agree and figure it out later,but their insistence on contacting your current employer could leave you without either job and what’s the point, post-acceptance? They should be getting references prior to making offers.

  242. Hoarder's Coworker*

    How would you emotionally deal with a co-worker who is your superior, but not your boss, and is a hoarder? Coworker’s boss won’t do anything about it even though some aspects of the hoarding does create a bit of a safety concern (frustrates me to no end). My coworker refuses to get rid of anything, or let others have anything, because “we may need it some day” (it never gets used, we order what we need). I get tired of spending 10 minutes moving things so I can get to the equipment I need to use and then 10 minutes putting it back. We have so much unneeded stuff in our small storage area that we don’t have enough room for files now! I try to grin and bear it as this coworker does have retirement on the horizon. I know the boss will not address the situation so I guess I’m asking if anyone has any ways for me to let it roll off my back until retirement eventually comes along.

    1. valentine*

      What does your manager say? Hopefully, they don’t want you wasting 20 minutes each time. Can the hoarder be tasked with that?

    2. WellRed*

      Stop putting stuff back. For that matter, say you can’t get to the equipment. Make it boss problem to the limited extent you can.

        1. WellRed*

          One more thing; this is not your coworkers personal stuff, correct? You don’t need his permission to toss a few things out here and there. Won’t solve the bigger problem but might feel good.

  243. Dove*

    I got a job! I got an actual offer to be a registration officer, for the upcoming election, and training is on the 8th!

    I’m happy-dancing so much, I’ve had *so many* interviews lately that led to nothing, and I’d just gotten a rejection a couple days previous to this.

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