my employee wasn’t respectful enough after the company messed up her paycheck

by Alison Green on October 19, 2021

A reader writes:

I’m not comfortable with one of my new staff members and how overconfident she is. Her work is great and she needed very little training but she’s got very big britches.

“Jane” has only been with us for two months. Just today she asked for a meeting with me and our payroll manager. It turns out payroll made an error entering her direct deposit information that resulted in Jane not getting paid, not once but two times.

Our company requires potential candidates to complete sample assignments during the interview process and we pay them an hourly contractor rate. It turns out she didn’t get paid for her assignment period, or for the next full pay cycle. The payroll employee apologized directly to Jane in an email, because it was their error in entering her information and not following up/fixing it that resulted in Jane not getting paid. Jane was able to show emails back and forth where she checked in with the payroll employee and asked if it was fixed, which they confirmed it was. Today was payday and Jane didn’t get paid. She checked with the employee again and they acknowledged that they “thought” it was fixed. It’s upsetting for Jane, I understand, but I think she was out of line about the whole thing. People make mistakes.

Neither payroll nor I knew anything about it until today. We both apologized and assured her the issue would be handled. After that, she looked at me and the payroll manager and said, “I appreciate your apology, but I need you both to understand that this can’t happen again. This has put me under financial strain and I can’t continue to work for COMPANY if this isn’t corrected today.”

The payroll manager was heavily in agreement, but I was speechless that she’d speak to management like that.

Payroll handled the whole thing and cut her a check with the okay from HR. Jane had referenced that not being paid put her in financial hardship and unable to pay bills, so HR allowed the use of the employee hardship fund and gave her $500 in gift cards so she can get groceries and gas and catch up on bills. I’m just kind of floored that she’s getting gift cards after speaking to her superiors like that. I’m also uncomfortable because why is our company responsible for her fiscal irresponsibility? Her personal finances or debts are not the company’s responsibility. I just don’t think it’s the company’s responsibility to give her more than what she’s earned (the extra $500 from the employee emergency relief fund) to fix things for her if she overspent or didn’t prioritize her bills or save smartly. We also don’t know if she is actually experiencing a financial hardship or just claiming she was.

HR allowed her paid time to go to the bank today and deposit her check. I told our HR person that while it’s not okay Jane didn’t get paid, the way she approached it was uncalled for. HR told me, “She’s right, it can’t happen again and it shouldn’t have happened at all.”

I’m getting tired of the respect gap I’m seeing with younger staff. I think Jane would be better suited in a different department. I’m not comfortable having her on my team since it’s obvious she doesn’t understand she’s entry-level and not in charge. Should I wait a while before suggesting she transfer to a different department?

I’m going to say this bluntly: you are very, very wrong about this situation, both as a manager and as a human.

Your company didn’t pay Jane money they owed her in the timeframe in which they were legally obligated to pay it. They did this twice.

Your company messed up, and their mistake impacted someone’s income. That’s a very big deal.

The payroll department handled this exactly as they should: they apologized, cut her a check immediately, and helped repair the damage their mistake had caused. Jane shouldn’t have to suffer for their error, and their remedies were appropriate and warranted.

Your objection to this because the company shouldn’t be responsible for Jane’s finances is nonsensical. Your company is responsible for paying the wages they’ve agreed to pay in the timeline they’ve agreed to pay them in. They didn’t meet that obligation, and so they fixed it. That’s not about them being responsible for Jane’s debts; it’s about them being responsible for adhering to a legal wage agreement and treating an employee well after failing at a basic responsibility and causing that person hardship.

Suggesting that someone who needs the paycheck they earned to be delivered to them on time “didn’t prioritize her bills or save smartly” is wildly out of touch with the reality of many people’s finances in this country and how many people live paycheck to paycheck (particularly someone entry-level who just started a job two months ago and may have been unemployed before that). But frankly, even if Jane didn’t save smartly, it’s irrelevant; your company’s mistake is what caused the problem, and it’s what’s at issue here.

Your speculation that Jane might be lying about her financial situation is bizarre and reflects poorly on you. It’s irrelevant and you don’t seem to have any reason for wondering that other than an apparent desire to cast Jane in a bad light.

You’re absolutely right that there’s a respect gap in this situation — but it’s from you toward your employees, not from Jane toward her employer.

There’s nothing disrespectful about Jane advocating for herself and explaining that she’d be unable to stay in the job if the payroll mistakes weren’t corrected. She gets to make that choice for herself, it’s not an unreasonable one, and it’s not disrespectful for her to spell it out. In fact, I’d argue it’s actively respectful since respect requires clear, polite, direct communication and she gave you that.

When you say Jane doesn’t seem to understand she’s entry-level and not in charge … Jane is very much in charge of where she’s willing to work and what she will and won’t tolerate. Every employee is, regardless of how junior or senior they might be.

Corporate power structures require deference in things like decision-making on a project, but not the sort of obeisance in all things that you seem to be looking for.

Somewhere along the way, you picked up a very warped idea of what employees owe their employers, but you don’t seem to have thought much about what employers owe their employees. You urgently need to do some rethinking and recalibration if you’re going to continue managing people.

You may also like:
{ 2,125 comments }

{ 2,125 comments… read them below }

  1. Littorally*

    Man, I hope Alison’s going to have a tight rein on the comments on this one — ‘be kind’ is hard when someone’s this high on their own farts.

        2. Not a robot*

          Are kidding me? Leadership at this company has to be toxic af. If I missed three pay checks in a row and it wasn’t immediately fixed I’d sue the company. You’re lucky she just had a meeting.

          1. Rric*

            Probably why they offered her the gift cards. They know they’d be on the hook for more money if she made a wage complaint with the state.

          2. ThatGuy*

            She’d be very well within her rights to not have that meeting and just sue immediately. She didnt get paid twice, went through the correct channels to get it fixed, doublechecked and was assured it was fixed, and then did not get paid AGAIN.

            Its hard to not constitute malice at that point and the company is lucky with the outcome.

          1. farn*

            I’ve heard of several companies being unable to make payroll several times, with checks either not delivered / direct deposits not occurring, or paychecks bouncing. They sounded very similar. They resulted in employees who were much less forgiving, and well within their rights.

          2. Josie*

            This sort of situation is unbelievably common. You don’t have to be competent to run a business, just have access to the right resources. The world is full of terrible bosses.

          3. arizhel*

            This happened to me at my company when they switched over to a new payroll system. They pulled a list of direct deposit accounts months in advance of the change (a mistake, for obvious reasons), and in the meantime, I had closed that old account and moved my direct deposit to a new one. For six weeks, my direct deposits went to an account that had been closed for months and I had to fight tooth and nail to get checks issued to me in a timely manner. I went through my supervisor, his manager, and finally just started going directly to payroll because I was tired of the runaround. The manager got peeved that I went over his head, and I told him that the problem obviously isn’t getting fixed when I go through him, so I decided to go straight to the source. Three pay periods of having to wait several extra days for my check (we get paid on Fridays, and as per the usual Payroll isn’t in on weekends) messed up my finances pretty bad for awhile.

            1. Dennis Young*

              If I was the managers boss, he/she would only have ONE more meeting with HR: the one where I immediately fired him/her.

          3. Daniel*

            I’m assuming in the US, but no, had the initial compalint been EEO related then yes, but simply a payroll error isn’t unless the reason Jane didn’t get paid was based on “Age, Sex, Gender, Race, Religion, Country of Origin or Genetic Background” its not EEO related.

            Retaliation as a separate complaint is only illegal had the employee taken part in a eeo related case/ activity. ,

            1. Splendid Colors*

              If Jane had made an outside complaint to the local agency handling wage theft, then that would also qualify to protect her from retaliation. Luckily for OP’s company, Jane didn’t make a wage theft claim because Payroll was at least going through the motions of fixing the problem.

              If Payroll agreed with Jane that she was handling their error properly, but OP made punitive management decisions regarding Jane, that wouldn’t stop Jane’s manager from deciding OP is being a bad manager even if Jane doesn’t have legal protection.

            2. Pellucid Ear*

              The law of what constitutes unlawful retaliation varies with state law. As a general principle, retaliation is unlawful if it violates public policy. Often, but not always, the public policy is codified into a statute. For example, if employer retaliates against employee for filing a worker’s compensation claim, there is typically a state statute forbidding it and providing employee a civil claim against employer.

              However, some retaliation claims arise in circumstances that violate public policy but aren’t specified in a statute. Let’s imagine employer is doing something illegal. Employee discovers this and reports the illegality to law enforcement (which includes gov’t agencies that enforce the law). Employer then terminates employee. That’s retaliatory termination in violation of public policy. Courts recognize such claims, even in the absence of a statute forbidding employer from doing such things.

      5. The Spitz Gang*

        Jane sounds like someone who gets things done—which means she’ll probably have her boss’s job shortly.

        3. beebot*

          Jane sounds like someone who gets things done — which means she’ll be trapped in her job for years, with M. Letter Writer blocking her every attempt to move iinside the company for years. Mazel tov!

          1. Jolie*

            Nah, she’s good the “If you’re crap to me, I’ll walk” attitude, so if OP tries that she’ll be soon working in an entirely different, better job soon”.

          1. Rob*

            This company seemed to go out of their way to fix things with this employee and they all seemed to wholeheartedly agree with the employee too which pissed the manager off to the point of making this post. One bad apple can spoil things but I don’t think that’s the case here. It just seems like it’s that single individual that is the problem not the company itself. Given enough time she will probably end up with her bosses job anyhow.

            1. The Otterman*

              Wholeheartedly agree with your assessment. Manager just got his “britches” in a bunch after a “lowly” underling was assertive with him and HR.

              Even HR took no offense, likely due to her having the upper hand and could have sued them for a lot more. They also realize she was being more than reasonable in her demands and didn’t want to go the legal route. That’s a good employee and idiot ~~couldn’t ~~ wouldn’t see it.

            2. overconfident_engineer*

              I agree to a point, but a bad direct supervisor/manager can completely ruin an entire company for a person. I’ve experiences many times the “boss” versus the “leader” — absolutely terrible person to work under, but an amazing company… and I couldn’t be asked to deal with that leader. I made sure to let the company know, during my exit interview, exactly why I was leaving though — and the great company I had worked for shifted that particular manager out of their position into a literal, but without direct reports, position shortly after.

              Funny because he thought he would be the President of the company eventually.

              1. overconfident_engineer*

                Sorry, I couldn’t be asked to deal with that “boss”* — a boss being the barking order type, the leader being the lead-by-example type that is amazing to work for.

            3. Britney*

              The fact that the manager is so sure of themselves in this is alarming, because it m and they’ve likely enforced that kind of obeisance for years without anyone successfully speaking up before. This is the kind of toxic leadership the company needs to cut, and if they’ve been allowed to maintain their dominion long enough to normalize it then it tells me that the company is not paying attention. If anything happened to the manager at all, it would be a shift into a role without direct reports– likely a promotion– which further encourages that behavior among other members of leadership. One bad apple is an early red flag for the tree, and storing it with the rest allows spoilage to spread.

            4. TardyTardis*

              Is this the same guy who wanted to hunt down an employee who quit over not getting to go to her own graduation?

    2. AGD*

      I began sympathizing with Jane in the third paragraph and by the end thought she’d handled it remarkably well.

              1. too many too soon*

                Another form of ‘uppity’, which iirc refers to black people not acting how white people think they should.

                1. Yvette*

                  You mean “knowing their place”? Yet another hateful expression. I have to wonder if there is anything other about the circumstances other than “she’s entry-level and not in charge”.

                2. Brooklyn*

                  After reading that line, I immediately thought that Jane is a black woman. It reeks of “stay in your place” vibes which oftentimes is still very much how black women are treated in Corporate America (and beyond).

                5. banoffee pie*

                  I thought uppity was a bit of a no-go word due to racist connotations. I wouldn’t say it and I’m not even American. Is it not as bad as I think, or worse?

                6. Observer*

                  @Banofee pie, it’s as bad as you think. That’s what people are trying to call out here. The OP’s language and attitude about “Jane” reeks of the kind of attitude encapsulated in the word.

                7. FrenchCusser*

                  One of my coworkers made a remark lamenting that ‘it used to be a compliment to say that someone knew their place’ and I ripped into her but good.

                  At work.

                  In front of witnesses.

                  I am not ashamed.

                8. Gumby*

                  I have no idea whether Jane is a BIPOC or not; she certainly could be and LW is wildly off base either way. But I definitely heard “so-and-so is too big for her britches” when I lived in the South and it was almost always directed at white children, mostly girls. Or one not-well-liked adult who had just said something legitimately kind of insulting and snooty; I don’t think I was supposed to hear that comment though. Something like, “Well isn’t that one a little big for her britches…” said under the breath.

                  (Of course, the town I lived in had a very small Black community and was not at all well-integrated which was another problem entirely, and one of the reasons my family moved to California when I was a pre-teen.)

                10. Super Anon*

                  As a Southerner (born and raised – never lived anywhere else and has about and equal mix of races), that has nothing to do with race. At all. It’s directed at anyone who doesn’t know their place in society, white or black or anything else. Don’t try to throw in race baiting where it’s not required. Seriously, this world is effed up enough without that.

                11. Observer*

                  @Super Anon “doesn’t know their place in society”? For real?!

                  That’s pretty messed up no matter who it’s addressed to. But let’s get real. Who is the most likely to have that thrown at them?

                12. Fed-o*

                  Another Southerner here and, yes, it is often used in a racial context but also sometimes in a gender context (and often–both!). I’ve never heard a white straight man referred to as uppity.

                  It’s gross.

                13. Ettakit*

                  Southerner here. While Jane could be BIPOC, “too big for their britches” is most commonly used towards children rather than having a race-based tone. This manager is infantilizing Jane definitely when they say that.

                14. Joe Alabama*

                  100% team Jane here, but I’m a southener and I say somebody is getting “big for their britches” and “uppity” and never has it been in reference to somebody being black. The first time I heard somebody refer to somebody being “big for their britches,” it was in reference to a male, white NFL commentator.

                15. Doomsday*

                  Yup! “Too big for their britches” told me all I needed to know about the Mgrs real problems with the employee.

                16. KFabe*

                  While I wouldn’t be surprised at all if this was influenced by Jane being BIPOC or even just female I’ve found that when someone is lost this far between their own butt cheeks that they’re usually pretty awful to work for no matter who you are, it just tends to manifest in different ways. Sometimes the same ego and myopia that causes them to be bigoted can also cause them to act particularly threatened and insecure when someone like themselves around, so everyone suffers, just in different ways.

                  For example, one of my first and worst jobs after high school was working at a restaurant where the owner liked to creepily hover around and show unwanted favoritism to the waitresses while making it pretty clear that us men doing the back-of-house work should never even be seen, much less heard. I think I would have been even less comfortable working there as a woman but it was definitely bad times all around.

                17. Sara*

                  As a white millennial female, I understand where people are seeing racism and other prejudices in this letter. I’m certainly not going to try and defend the guy or pretend that racism and prejudices against older people don’t exist in the workplace. At the same time, I’ve had this exact language directed at me. “Uppity” and it was “too big for my britches” in the South, and comments about not “understanding my place” in the North.

                18. a southern linguist y'all*

                  @Super Anon

                  Linguist and Southerner here. The etymology of the word “uppity” does indeed begin with white Southerners talking about Black Southerners. It’s an outdated term rooted in racism.

                  Please catch up with the times. I pray for the time when the inherent classism of “know your place” dies in a fire.

              2. Rebecca*

                This manager is a piece of work. Why is she even making a direct comment to HR? The one who is a little “big in the britches” is the manager herself. Wow. It wasn’t any of her business, it really is between the employer and the employee missing her paycheck, no one else.

          2. Koalafied*

            Same. That was the first flag, and I was disagreeing with LW’s take throughout the letter, but when I got to the part where they describe this whole situation as “her fiscal irresponsibility” I’ll admit some choice words not suitable for the comments section left my mouth about what this person could do and how far they could do it…

            1. Charlotte Lucas*

              Wasn’t the company being fiscally irresponsible by, you know, not paying someone? (I think HR handled everything perfectly.)

              1. Elenna*

                Yes! I really appreciated that HR pushed back and was like “no, actually Jane handled this fine”.

              2. Stina*

                Hopefully, HR also painfully and clearly explained the issue with the LW’s Snobby & Discriminatory Attitude to him (my own assumption) and applied equally effective reparative measures to it.

                1. AKchic*

                  I read the LW as an older woman. Very WASP wannabe, if you catch my drift. Very old school of a sort, and has not kept up with the norms.

              3. Marzipan Shepherdess*

                That was my thought exactly! The company deprived Jane of TWO paychecks and the OP is whining that JANE is financially irresponsible?! Hmm…seems to me that I once read something to the effect of “Why is it that you can see a speck of dust in your neighbor’s eye but you couldn’t see a plank of wood in your own?”

                Also, side note to “French Cusser” (since I don’t see a “Reply” option to their apt note about “keeping one’s place” being a compliment): Well, at one time, it WAS a compliment to say that so-and-so kept their place – but that time was well over a hundred years ago! Frankly, anyone who NOW thinks it’s a great thing to say would be far happier in the distant past (and the rest of us would happier with that person in the distant past, too! ;)

                1. Sue ELLEKER*

                  “The rich man in his castle,
                  The poor man at his gate,
                  God made them, high or lowly,
                  And ordered their estate.”

                2. Sorcia Lawson*

                  I was almost waiting to hear how LW wondered why Jane’s husband didn’t already have things taken care of – in the most awful sexist way.

                3. Rob*

                  Yep I saw her as an older woman too yet more often than not I see these people referred to as men. I just don’t see this particular one being a man though I could be wrong. It just seems like an older woman with insecurities.

              4. Nancy*

                I agree with you 1000%! Re: The big for her britches comment. It was incredibly ageist and inappropriate.

              5. DriverZero*

                Precisely what I thought! How dare that manager accuse Jane of not handling her debts properly, when that company had a debt to Jane that they handle improperly, TWICE!!

            2. Camolita*

              I’ll admit some choice words not suitable for the comments section left my mouth about what this person could do and how far they could do it…

              Same here, Koalafied. I’m seriously appalled at… the entire letter. Yikes!

            3. MissBaudelaire*

              Yeah, I was trying to see where the disrespect to LW came in. I looked high and low and couldn’t find it.

              I literally snorted when I got to ‘her fiscal irresponsibility’. Um, no, it’s the company’s irresponsibility that she didn’t get paid.

              1. Talenyn*

                Honestly, including her in that meeting at all was showing respect to LW bc she really didn’t have to. It could have been just Jane and HR.

            4. Lady Meyneth*

              I was already side eyeing OP when I read the title. By “fiscal irresposibility” I was already wondering if this was the return of Graduation Boss…

              1. Chaordic One*

                Yes, we haven’t seen a letter from a boss who was so “out-of-touch” in some time and it does remind me of the boss who wouldn’t give her star employee time off to attend the her own graduation.

                1. Marzipan Shepherdess*

                  Did anyone else wonder if the OP is a trust-fund baby? The way they refer to Jane’s statement about the TWO missed paychecks made me seriously wonder if OP has never had to worry about money in their life! OP seems unable to comprehend that not being paid for a month (!) puts almost all employees – especially entry-level ones! – in a very shaky financial bind. What’s worse, they seem to assume that anyone who IS in a financial bind is there due to extravagant spending habits and scatterbrained irresponsibility. That might hold true for born-rich people who outspend even THEIR (totally UNearned) wealth, but not for anyone else. The OP’s attitude throughout this letter is so out of touch with reality that I really question their ability to manage anyone who isn’t exactly like them.

                  Note to OP’s company: You have two employees of note. One is a young woman who advocates appropriately for herself and has the backbone to speak up when it’s necessary. The other is a “manager” with a spoiled-rotten attitude. Keep the first, fire the second and your company will be all the better for it!

                3. Kal*

                  @Marzipan I think its may actually be worse than that. LW said that Jane has worked there for 2 months now, and hasn’t been paid for even the assignments from the interview process. So that makes it sound like Jane hasn’t been paid for at least two months of work, not just one! Two months without any income (especially when you’re working and that money should be coming in) would be a serious strain on nearly anyone who doesn’t come from a wealthy family.

              2. Betty Broderick-Allen*

                Yeah, I was wondering if self-righteous pizza-skipper (“my coworkers won’t cut expenses”) got a promotion to manager at some company out there.

            7. Worldwalker*

              Yeah … if I had to pick an example of “fiscal irresponsibility” between an employee depending on their paycheck to pay their bills, and a company not paying them on time/at all, I sure as hades would *not* pick the employee.

              Maybe the LW has thousands of dollars in the bank and can afford to miss a few paychecks without issues, but that’s not the case for most of us. Especially a lower-level employee and new hire, who for both of those reasons is probably already stretched financially, with low pay and possibly extended unemployment, or at best lower pay.

              1. Candi*

                One of the reasons I picked computer stuff, later narrowing it down to IT, for my Bachelor’s is the paycheck. I’ve lived paycheck to paycheck, had state help, was on WIC, done the food stamp thing, etc., etc., and I am sick of it. In my area, IT of any level pays really well.

                I am so on Jane’s side, and side-eyeing OP so hard.

              2. Anon for this*

                I’m job hunting because I’m being walked all over, constantly, in my current job. I have plenty of money saved, enough that I could go months without drawing a paycheck if I had to, but my response to this scenario at a new workplace would be exactly the same simply because this situation implies a complete lack of respect for the employee. Whether she’s actually living paycheck to paycheck doesn’t make a difference.

            8. Koworker*

              If my manager told me that I needed to be more “fiscally responsible” so that I would be prepared when my company randomly decided not to pay me, I would definitely be looking for a new job. That would be a giant red flag that my company is planning to not pay me what I’m owed when I’m owed it.

            9. Missus H*

              Years back, when I was training on payroll, the very first thing I was told was “don’t f*** with anyone’s paycheck”. I took that to heart. It doesn’t matter if you have a million dollars in the bank, or 10. That paycheck is theirs and they expect it to be in their bank account when they wake up Friday morning.

              1. Mysteresc*

                Years ago I was observing an exercise on Compensation with a group of executives. The first thing the facilitator did was have everyone stand up and put their wallets on the table. Then he had everyone reach forward and take the wallet of the person in front of them. The discomfort level in the room shot through the roof.

                The facilitator’s message: the wallet is the most sensitive part of the human body. When you fiddle with it, your people will expect it to hurt.

          3. mars*

            the minute an employer fails to give a check to an employee, the employee should be allowed to burn the employer’s house down, you want free labor like they had in antebellum atlanta? you should be treated the same.

            1. Greg*

              This. At my first job out of college, one of our competitors had some major problems with payroll, and one of their employees ended up coming to my company. I was talking with her about it once, and she was telling me how it’s a trap, because once they miss the first paycheck, you have a strong incentive to stick around and not lose out on the money you’re owed, but if they have continued problems you dig yourself deeper and deeper into a hole. I resolved at that moment that I would never tolerate any employer that missed a paycheck, and would push back very hard if it ever happened. Fortunately I have never been placed in that position.

              All of which is to say that I am very sympathetic to Jane’s reaction. She needed to demonstrate that she took this very seriously, and I admire her willingness to stand up for herself despite being so new to the workforce.

              1. MCMonkeyBean*

                Well hold up–you don’t have to stick around to not lose out on money you’re owed! Even if you leave a company they would still owe you that money!

                1. Greg*

                  Well, her point was that she figured if she stuck around she’d have a better chance of getting paid. But in retrospect, yes, I’m sure she realized it was a mistake to stay as long as she did. I should also add that this was in a developing country where she wouldn’t have had the same access to the legal system as one might expect in the US. In fact, given that we expats were generally paid in cash and didn’t have work permits, I’m not sure she would have been able to sue even if she had wanted to navigate the legal system.

                2. Litterae*

                  Well, sure—but being owed money isn’t the same thing as being PAID money. The litigation necessary to get, say, $2000 in back pay from a bankrupt or shady company is very often not worth it.

                3. Barbara Eyiuche*

                  This could be a problem in some countries. I didn’t get paid at a job in South Korea, but I kept working there because my work visa was tied to my place of employment. I also thought that maybe I would get paid when things improved, as the boss promised. I have to advise that in South Korea, if the boss is late with pay, with some sob story, it is a test. If you pit up with it once, they will get worse and worse. Twenty years ago, there was no point complaining to the labor board – things might be better now.

                4. Princesss Sparklepony*

                  Sunk costs. You want to get what owed to you. The idea being that it’s just a glitch that gets worked out and you then the pay rolls in on schedule. Which is fine if that is what it is. Sometimes honest mistakes happen. But if it’s not a honest mistake… then you got decisions to make. How much in the hole are you willing to go for this company? When do you cut the cord and realize that small claims is your only option (or Judge Judy!)

              2. Lisa*

                I once worked for a company that was struggling and paychecks were delayed weeks. It was horribly illegal but they were counting on a lot of friends-and-family working there that no one would sue or report them. I’d been there less than six months and I called BS, and pointed out that an employee who leaves must be paid in full immediately to comply with labor laws. They finally coughed up all my back pay and I lived on it while I found a new job.

                The people who stuck around longer got shafted when they company more or less went under. I later found I was the only person who ever got their full back pay.

              3. Meh*

                Jane was spot-on.

                The attitude, and very probably the behavior, of the LW is appalling. The fact that LW is considering suggesting a transfer for Jane for asserting herself and demanding that the problem be fixed, not ‘I thought it was fixed,’ suggests that LW should not be in management at all.

                When an employee has been hired by a company to work for a given salary or rate, and the company abrogates that agreement, it is entirely reasonable for the employee to tell the company that if the situation is not resolved immediately, the employee will seek other employment that is actually gainful.

                I also read this as Jane very possibly being BIPOC – the LW’s tone reads as ‘this should consider herself *lucky* to have a job, she won’t find another as easily, and she should be grateful and patient and suck up our mistakes.’ I ran into that a lot working in a few very specific regions of the country where the people seem to feel entitled to free labor, and it led to contract terms such that late fees were assessed very, very fast.

            2. Catgirl*

              This happened at my old workplace, they fixed it and apologized and nobody called me uppity. And it WAS serious, I was a student and had $9 in my bank account.

              1. JKateM*

                There have been a few errors here and there at my company but our bookkeeper always fixes them as soon as she learns of the mistake. And as the HR person in a small business I’m usually the one people come to about this; I always take those as serious and urgent as does the bookkeeper. We know people need their money and they EARNED it. This manager is just. . . Badly in need of training in a few areas, but first of all empathy.

            3. cacwgrl*

              I will admit I once made this mistake and very nearly caused an employee to miss a paycheck. I was being cross trained to run payroll and missed one person when I transmitted the file. Luckily (for me and employee), the actual payroll person caught it the day before actual payday and was able to immediately remedy the situation as best we could. On the spot, a manual check was cut and copy paystub generated and I personally delivered it to FedEx to ensure 1000 overnight delivery to employee, who was across the country. The stars lined up for me that day and nothing happened in transit and employee received their funds on time, since pay day is actually noon for the company. I am forever grateful at how understanding and forgiving that employee was and that I was not fired for that mistake. The guilt I felt was massive and from that point on, I was extremely careful. I understand the pay check to pay check life and would have been in a terrible position had I been the one who missed out on money. Anyway, the whole reason I relived the horror is to say, it is entirely possible that it’s an honest mistake once, and its entirely possible that a good employer will move mountains to take care of their person, which it sounds like OP’s payroll and HR did as well.

              1. FrenchCusser*

                I work at a small community college, and yes, we sometimes make mistakes and someone doesn’t get a check when they’re supposed to, but when reported, we run a manual check IMMEDIATELY and apologize for the error.

                I just can’t get behind someone who thinks, ‘Well, we didn’t pay you, but it’s your fault for needing money’.

          4. Allornone*

            I tried to withhold my judgement, but the sucker escaped at the headline. By the time I got to “big britches,” my judgement was on the loose, doing its judgy-judgiest to judge everything worth judging. He judged all over OP’s yard. It was a mess.

            1. Empress Matilda*

              Same. I do my best to give LW’s – and everyone – the benefit of the doubt. But I started giving side-eye at “my employee wasn’t respectful enough,” and was in full-on judgement mode by the time we got to “big britches.” Yikes, OP.

          6. Sleeping Late Every Day*

            I’ve never sworn so much AT a letter writer before this. I was shocked at how many times I could say “Fv<k you!" in a variety of tones, one for each sentence, started with the britches comment. I do believe I have to go swear some more just thinking about this turd purveyor.

            1. Meh*

              The company needs to review this manager; the manager, by their own lights, has already made manifest her opinions to others in authority. If others in authority share the LW’s opinions, Jane should bail; if not, the manager should be demoted or fired. There’s no middle ground.

              1. Fayman*

                Imagine a manager like that handling any part of your company. The lack of basic sense implied here can be a huge liability.

                If anyone is too big for their britches, its LW here. She doesn’t know her place or understand her role very well if this is how she sees people reporting to her.

        2. INFJedi*

          I’m not a native English speaker/writer, can someone explain me wat “big britches” are? I do get from the LW’s “tone” that it isn’t something nice, but I have no clue to what it might refer.

          Thanks in advance!

          1. chocolate lover*

            INFJedi – it basically suggests that the person thinks they are more important or special than they actually are. Often used to indicate a person seems unrealistic.

            1. Stina*

              And almost always applied to sassy children or adults who are historically marginalized like Black Americans or Women when they step outside of their historically assigned roles. Sometimes applied to poor whites as well but less often.

                1. Jessie*

                  Says who, based on what evidence? Believing that there’s not even a chance of such implications takes a willful effort to refuse to read between the lines, the kind of willful effort usually usually made by people who are on the privileged side of such interactions and therefore don’t want to admit that such things still happen with much regularity.

            2. Justme*

              Britches is slang for pants. So you’ve put on pants that are way too big for you. You are thinking much too highly of yourself.

              1. Shannon*

                I’m a historical costuming nerd. Britches were male underwear before boxers or briefs were a thing. They were very wide and worn by wrapping it around yourself and then tying them on with strings. Each leg was big enough to fit both your legs in, basically.

                So the comment is sort of a historical version of “pull up your big girl panties” and since britches were so huge, and there’s no way to grow out of them…

          2. Ange*

            The phrase is “too big for (his/her/their) britches” basically meaning acting like you’re more important than you really are.

          4. kittymommy*

            Basically it’s being full of yourself or looking at one’s self as more important than they are. Inflated ego.

            1. A Former Freelancer*

              A Reader, one wonders if you are a business that has customers or clients. What has happened here is equivalent to a restaurant diner attempting to “dine-and-dash,” with a promise to “get you next time,” and then pulling that same stunt a week later. It is the equivalent of a customer trying to walk out of a store — twice — with a product with a vague promise to “pay you later.” It is the equivalent of a client accepting your products or services and then ignoring your invoices. Oh, I’m sorry — does that sound a lot like attempted theft? Because that’s what we call it when someone avails themself of a product or service without paying for it at the customary time, in the customary fashion. In this case, the product/service was Jane’s time & labor. It sounds like she comported herself with more than the level of restraint I would expect her to show a shoplifter, or a two-time delinquent client who was ignoring the bills. What is your company’s policy for handling delinquent clients or customers? Why would you expect any greater level of deference or respect?

          5. kathyglo*

            From dictionary.com:
            People use the phrase too big for one’s britches, or too big for one’s boots. Conceited, self-important, as in Ever since he won that tournament he’s gotten too big for his britches, or There’s no talking to Jill anymore—she’s just too big for her boots. This metaphoric idiom alludes to becoming so “swollen” with conceit that one’s pants or boots no longer fit. [Late 1800s]

          6. OtterB*

            I have heard the phrase as someone being “too big for their britches” meaning they think too highly of themselves. I’m not sure where it originally came from.

          7. Merci Dee*

            In some English-speaking parts of the world, “britches” is another word for trousers. So the phrase “too big for your britches” brings with it the idea that someone is acting like they’ve outgrown their “station” in life, or what other people believe their station in life should be. Like the person has become so inflated with their own ego that they can’t even fit into their own trousers anymore.

            2. Sharpie*

              I believe the older spelling, and the one more commonly seen in the UK, would be ‘breeches’.

              (Which is also where the phrase ‘breech birth’ comes from, to describe a baby born legs first.)

              2. Carol the happy elf*

                We have a comment in my family; “He was born breech”, or “She came in acting all breech-y”.
                A lot of breech births are actually BUTT first.

                1. Lenora Rose*

                  Kind of? I mean, the bum is usually what’s facing, but to actually get a breech birth out without a caesarian, you apparently need to get a hold of a leg. (Which I know from the maternal side, not the medical side… my firstborn was a natural breech. Apparently she was very cooperative with offering her legs at the first tries, but the doctor who’d been there forever and seen everything stayed past the shift change to talk the relatively new doctor through it, because younger doc had literally never done a non-Caesarian breech.)

                2. Alex*

                  Yep, can confirm – my son was a breech birth (nightmare situation) and before I’d even started pushing the doctor’s first words were “Welp, he’s definitely a boy”.

                  The fact he was born butt first is absolutely his favourite thing about himself – funnily enough it’s not mine!

                  (Also can’t reply to Lenora below but feet first is called footling breech and my understanding is that it’s way more dangerous than a “full breech” baby)

                3. fhqwhgads*

                  If they’re butt first that’s call “frank breech”, assuming the butt is coming out first because they’re folded in half, rather than just backwards.

                4. Lenora Rose*

                  Alex: My understanding is if the legs are first they often get folded in a way that makes them jam up and not go through the canal (Think of the second leg lying crosswise and with the knee the wrong way around to bend…), while with bum first, if they can manoeuvre a leg, they can get it where they need it.

            3. Chilipepper attitude*

              That is how I understand it, britches are pants.
              It originally referred to breeches as far as I know.

            4. turquoisecow*

              It’s often used to refer to children, I think. A kid who’s too big for their britches thinks that they’re ready for grown-up pants (kids wore short pants and grown-ups wore long pants) or thinking like they’re older/smarter/better than they are.

            1. Candi*

              Can I point out that OP is saying this about Jane standing up for her legal rights?

              This does not reflect well on OP at all.

              1. Observer*

                Well, the OP clearly doesn’t understand the obligation that the employer has here. The idea that only people who “are in charge” get to expect that their pay is handled correctly and timely is … NOT managerial.

              2. Quill*

                OP has got some serious disconnect about how much, legally, the ball is in her company’s court to get Jane paid on time. (If this was tennis practice she’d be pelted with the ball chucker…)

          9. Blushingflower*

            Usually the expression is that someone is “too big for their britches”, a way of saying that someone is conceited or full of themselves. “Britches” is another way of saying “breeches” or trousers. I tended to hear it as something said to/about kids, so I often think of it as someone who thinks they’re grown-up but is still wearing kids’ clothes, but I don’t think that’s the actual origin. It basically just means that someone’s ego has gotten so big they can’t fit their clothes (like getting a big head).
            So in this case the LW is referencing that saying and basically saying that Jane is conceited or thinks too highly of herself.

          10. Butterfly Counter*

            I’ve always heard it as “Too big for their britches,” (britches are an old way of saying “pants”) or that they’re acting out of line for their level. I always heard it in the context of children, so it was always “they’re acting older than they are.” But in this case, I take it to mean that they’re acting too much like a boss or manager for being in an entry-level position.

          11. Rachael*

            It means that her ego has gotten so big that she can’t fit in her pants (britches) anymore

            – Origin: Too big for your britches is a term of ridicule, used as far back as the 16th century. It is indicative of people who feel that other people, things and projects are below them… as in feeling so important, prideful and swelled-up that their britches/clothing may well burst off their bodies.

          12. JB*

            What a lot of people are missing in the definitions below is that it’s infantilizing. It’s something you say about children.

            Britches are an item of clothing (pants) – which children outgrow quickly. If a child gets bossy, you joke that they must be getting ‘too big for their britches’, i.e. they think or are acting as if they’re older/bigger than they actually are.

            It’s really not something you can passably say about another adult or even a young adult, except maybe in very limited situations, like talking about a younger intern? It’s extremely rude.

            2. KittyCardigans*

              Yeah, I might say this (ruefully) about myself or (jokingly) about a close friend or sibling. I could see myself using it in reference to children, but even by the time they’re high school-aged it can be a little too much. I’d never use it in relation to a work peer unless we were explicitly joking about egos or something.

              I have definitely used this phrase in reference to my cat, usually when he acts overly confident and then fails spectacularly.

            3. HarvestKaleSlaw*

              I think this is important too. It’s not just the basic meaning, where you are saying someone is acting above their station and needs to know their place. There is also the implied meaning: that the person being described is a snotty child.

              There is a history in the US, especially the Southern US, of using infantilizing language toward adult people of color. So depending on the context, this could be anywhere from unbelievably shitty to “In the Heat of the Night” shitty.

            4. turquoisecow*

              Yeah, it’s incredibly infantilizing. (As is the rest of the letter.) OP clearly doesn’t think Jane deserves to be treated with the respect of a fellow adult.

              1. Candi*

                I caught that with the “but she’s entry-level! She’s obviously irresponsible with finances if she’s out of money after her paycheck was missed twice!”

                Entry-level =/= child or juvenile, and a good portion of the population would be screwed over if two checks in a row weren’t paid out.

                1. Midwestern Scientist*

                  In America 54% of all people and closer to 70% of millennials (25-40 year olds so presumably just about anyone “entry level”) live paycheck to paycheck. As in they do not make enough money to save much if any after paying their living expenses. This LW is so wildly out of touch I can’t even

            5. Observer*

              What a lot of people are missing in the definitions below is that it’s infantilizing. It’s something you say about children.

              That caught my eye, too. Even if Jane’s behavior has been inappropriate (which it was NOT), the OP needs to treat her and think about her as an ADULT! She’s not a child.

              It’s especially galling in that she’s ALSO complaining that Jane hasn’t managed her money well. (Which is outrageous all on its own.)

          13. Clisby*

            I’m a native English speaker and have never heard the term exactly like that. I’ve heard “XYZ is getting too big for her britches” – meaning a person has an exaggerated idea of their own importance. But in that case, the “britches” aren’t big – the person’s idea of their importance is big.

          14. Federal Worker Drone*

            You got plenty of good answers, but in this case, the LW thinks tge employee failed to apologize sufficiently for needing her paycheck and bothering people over it.

            Thus demonstrating that SOMEONE in this letter IS too big for her britches, but most of us think it’s not the employee

            1. Candi*

              I got the impression OP also thought that Jane was making far too big a deal over not getting paid.

              “This can’t happen again” is, under the circumstances, perfectly acceptable language, and the implication Jane will find new employment, file a DOL complaint, or both is perfectly understandable and acceptable. Reasonable hiring managers will find “they kept messing up my paycheck” as a perfectly good reason to leave a company after a month or two.

              Of course, in my opinion a reasonable manager would have written in on how to make this up to Jane.

              1. Observer*

                Of course, in my opinion a reasonable manager would have written in on how to make this up to Jane.

                Yup. This reminds me of the boss who wrote in about how to give a bad reference to someone who quit after being pinched twice, rather than asking how to make sure that no one ever gets pinched in the office again or how to apologize to the victim.

                1. Candi*

                  …I missed that one.

                  I would ask “are you kidding?”, but between AAM and NAW, I’m pretty beyond that point.

                3. Candi*

                  Thank you dawbs!

                  My junior high banned the pinching at around the same time a couple of the worst bullies got outright expelled -don’t know if correlation equals causation.

                  My kids’ elementary school considered pinching a form of bullying, the middle school called it bullying and harassment, and the high school… pretended it didn’t happen. (They didn’t have the best record. On a lot of things.)

              2. Don P.*

                I wonder who this person is who knows AAM well enough to send this in, but not well enough to predict the reaction of Alison and every single commenter.

                1. Dave H*

                  I’m wondering if they related it to a friend and when they wouldn’t listen to the friend telling them they were in the wrong, the friend suggested this site and the LW wasn’t familiar enough to know what they would get… But the friend was.

          15. paxfelis*

            The explanation I’ve seen for it more or less unfolds into “you’re acting like a toddler trying to wear Daddy’s britches and being bossy because that’s what you think Daddy does.”

            Basically, you’re trying to assume or use authority beyond what you deserve to a ridiculous degree, you’re doing it badly and to an enraging degree, and you should be spanked and put down for a nap.

          16. AKchic*

            So, “britches” is a slang term for “breeches” or “short pants”. It used to be that small children (boys) would start acting too grown up/in charge and the “adult” would say they are acting “too big” as if they’d outgrown the need to wear such an item and were ready for “adult trousers”, but really they were just sassing and acting in a manner the adult deemed inappropriate.
            In the south (US), as “britches” became the more common term, it also became more common to use as a colloquialism against all children, women, anyone of lower standing, people of the global majority (read: non-white) as an insult.

          17. Anonymeece*

            I heard it a lot in the South – usually directed at me when I was a little girl.

            It essentially means that you’re taking on power that you don’t/shouldn’t have (according to the person saying it), or too confident in yourself. It’s inherently patronizing, so I wouldn’t ever recommend using it in a work setting, but to give a work example: say you had someone get put in charge of a project, and then they decided that meant they were your supervisor and started giving you orders and bossing you around. That person would be “too big for their britches”.

            As others have commented, it’s usually a race and/or gender thing, so I did a hard side-eye when I read that line and was proven right as I read on. The reason it was said to me so often as a little girl was because I stood up for myself, urgh.

          18. Nikki*

            Saying that someone is too big for their britches means that someone is acting conceited or full of themself. (This person was definitely not conceited for expecting her paycheck on time, but apparently that’s what the OP thinks of her)

        5. Paris Geller*

          Yeah, at that phrase I knew this was going to be a comment section that laid into the LW (for a good reason).
          I hope the OP realizes that Jane is not the one with an attitude problem here.

        6. Lacey*

          Same. I knew the moment “big britches” was used that this person was going to be wrong. I was still floored at HOW wrong they were.

        7. clearlyMillennial*

          makes me think the LW is the same age as my great aunt who still thinks leaving a $1 tip on a full meal is acceptable. it’s so embarrassing.

          1. a tester, not a developer*

            Same – I picture him thinking that Jane should either be living with her parents or her husband. In either case she shouldn’t *need* money. She’ll probably just spend it on soda pop and getting her hair permanent waved.

            2. AnonEMoose*

              And the thing is, even if she did, it is NONE OF HER EMPLOYER’S BUSINESS. Their part of the agreement is to pay her the agreed amount at the agreed time; not their job to judge how she spends it!

        9. Becca*

          For me it was a combo of that and the second paragraph. By the time I got to the fact that the letter stemmed from Jane not getting paid properly I looked back up at “big britches,” thought, hmmm, then looked at the title which I hadn’t read properly and thought, ahhh, yeah, Jane is probably fine.

          2. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

            That did catch my eye. OP couldn’t even insult Jane correctly. But sure, Jane’s the one who is full of herself.

        13. DJ Abbott*

          Haven’t heard it since childhood. My father used to say I was “ too big for my britches“.
          When I saw it I thought this person never grew up to adult expressions.
          My father grew up in Texas and South Dakota and is not BIPOC.

        15. GrooveBat*

          It’s not even accurate. The correct phrase is, “Too big for her britches,” so when OP says Jane has “big britches” it’s actually the opposite of what OP means.

        16. RubberDuck*

          Wasn’t even used correctly! The full phrase is “too big for your britches” implying that having big britches is, in fact, fine…

          And it bothers me so much more when people are both snooty and also Wrong.

      3. Wanderland*

        When I saw big britches, I envisioned someone from Bridgerton wearing a smokers jacket puffing with a pipe.

      4. Sandangel*

        I kept waiting for the big Unacceptable Behavior Moment, and instead I got…a young professional standing up for herself after a difficult time.

        1. Aerin*

          Honestly the way that Jane handled it, firmly and professionally, is exactly the way I think Alison would advise her to handle it had she been the one writing in.

      5. Athena*

        So many contridictions here.
        First op admits that it’s the company’s fault then proceeded to backtrack when the company used company resources to fix a issue they caused.
        Then op complains about how Jane stood up for herself to a manager as “disrespecting superiors” and in the same breath talks back to HR and Payroll as if they were out of line to fix a issue they caused.
        Sounds like op needs to go back to entry level and get a reminder of what the other side of the high horse taste like

    3. DANGER: Gumption Ahead*

      Yeah, I may have to sit this one out because, hot damn, talk about failing at the basics of being an employer. If a new employee, especially are really, really good one like Jane (e.g. “Her work is great and she needed very little training” – this is a freaking unicorn entry-level employee) who reported to me hadn’t been paid I would have been bending over backwards for them to help fix the situation. I’d have been mortified about how it made the company look. Missing payments to an employee is absolutely the biggest failure an employer can make. Jane handled it splendidly. Payroll handled it splendidly. HR handled it splendidly. The LW did not.

      1. Fran Fine*

        THIS. OP’s reaction is deplorable. The HR rep was absolutely right that Jane’s tone and statement about how this shouldn’t have happened a second time was on point and wasn’t disrespectful. They messed up AGAIN after claiming to have fixed the problem the first time, and that’s unacceptable.

        1. DANGER: Gumption Ahead*

          At an old job our paychecks were a day late once when we transitioned to a new payroll system thanks to something technical going catawompus. The biggest boss sent out an apology email, anyone who wanted could go and get a paper check, and everyone was given $50 in grocery gift cards as an apology. It was considered that big a deal because it is a big F-ing deal.

          1. RJ*

            This happened to us once but it was an error on the bank’s side. Same thing: the CEO sent out a company wide apology, offered to cut cheques for anyone who requested it, and went to bat to get the bank to cover any NSF fees caused by the issue.

            1. Charlotte Lucas*

              Happened where I worked once, too. Since we had an office in a state where there were very specific legal requirements about payroll, they were kind of obligated…

              1. Candi*

                It’s the apologies and the added help that really make it for some of these stories. FLSA, DOL, and state law says they have to make sure their employees get paid; it’s going the extra mile that says the corporation understands it’s a big deal, not just something they need to legally comply with.

                1. Mongrel*

                  It’s true of so many things in life, people are going to get things wrong at some point, that’s a given.
                  It’s what they do afterwards that’s the test of character.

            2. Worldwalker*

              Back in the early 90s, my employer did direct deposit by sending physical tapes to the payroll company. One month the tape got lost in the mail. They massively apologized, in writing, to everyone affected, and arranged with our banks to supply temporary funds because they recognized that we needed our paychecks.

                1. Susan Ivanova*

                  Reel-to-reel computer tapes, probably. My first high school job was to come in on Friday night and swap tapes for a couple of hours for the weekly backup.

          2. Remedial Chaos Theory*

            Even at my Awful Old Job, when Awful Old Boss realized direct deposits weren’t going to go in on time one week, due to a conjunction of holiday and switching payroll systems, he immediately sent out an apology, arranged for paper checks for anyone who didn’t want to wait, and bought us lunch as an additional mea culpa. Trust when I say he was not a “buy lunch on his dime” kind of guy, but even he understood it was a big deal when it came to getting people paid on time.

            1. JKFecke*

              Having worked at a company that was regularly late with payroll, nothing is a bigger red flag than a company that doesn’t treat payroll as their highest priority. The people who work for you are doing so because you pay them money. If you aren’t good about paying them money, why would you expect them to work hard for you? Why would you expect them to work for you at all?

              1. Candi*

                The love of the job! The mission! The bigger picture!

                Yeah, no. I’ve seen all of those on comments here, and they can all go hang. Hand over that physical/digital check, thanks.

                1. Keelhaulrose*

                  I LOVE my job but if they fucked up my pay this badly I would walk. I have mouths to feed and lights I have to keep on, not to mention the gas it’s costing me to get to work, if you can’t pay on time I’m gonna find someone who can. I am in a VERY in demand field right now, I could quit at 9 and be hired by 5.

                2. Recruited Recruiter*

                  @Keelhaulrose,
                  I am in the same situation as you currently. I still have people trying to recruit me because they “heard that I was looking” (4 months ago).

            2. leefe*

              These stories sound bizarre to me. When I was still working here in Aus. if public holidays interfered with normal payroll, the employer was obligated to pay early. Even our Social Security (welfare) system does that, and there are few things government likes less than giving money to people who actually need it.

          3. Mr. Shark*

            Yeah, at very old-job, I didn’t get my direct deposit. I was living paycheck to paycheck, so checks bounced since it wasn’t deposited.
            My employer worked closely with the bank, so quickly fixed the situation by depositing my check, and go all of my overdraft fees rescinded so I could get back on track.
            That was the least they could do.
            LW1 is being completely unreasonable, and obviously doesn’t understand how stressful financially this can be for someone just starting out or who may not have had any income for months before getting this new job.

            1. Just Jane*

              First job out of college and I had little money. I confirmed with Personnel (yes, way back times!) when I would be paid. The first bi-weekly check would be deposited to my new checking account at their bank on Friday of my first week. At orientation on Monday of that week, they announced that they were switching over to a new payroll system that day and the first payday for us would be Friday of the next week, That left me with no money for food and just enough to pay for my train fare to get to work; I had no way to get to my meager savings since my bank was in the city where I lived and had no evening hours. That and my miserable roommates made it one of the worst times in my life.

          4. bookworm*

            Yep, a similar thing happened at a former (government!) job of mine where we had a delay over a weekend, and the entire staff was ready to mutiny after an initial mealy-mouthed apology from leadership without a real effort to address the hardship for folks. Middle managers started taking things into their own hands to make sure entry level staff were OK, and also I think reamed out the leadership team in private for not doing more.

          5. turquoisecow*

            I worked for a retailer and transferred from working in the store to working in the corporate office. First pay period ended and the person who handled payroll for our department came over to confirm that I’d gotten my direct deposit. I hadn’t. She got on the phone with the people who were responsible, who erroneously still had me in as getting paid by the stores and hadn’t fixed the system. She came back to me with an apology, got them to cut me a paper check, and promised it wouldn’t happen again (it didn’t.)

            THAT is how payroll issues should be handled. Not by the boss griping about how employees should budget better on zero income.

          6. Kyrielle*

            We had a temp accidentally assign some spot bonuses (given to a fairly large group on completion of a major project) as pay because they messed the system up. A $200 bonus is nice, a $200 paycheck is…not.

            The payroll hit bank accounts on Friday, we had an apology email on Friday (someone spotted the deposit fast somewhere!), and they said they couldn’t get it out Friday but would get it out Monday and cover any fees/etc., just let them know. I feel like that is the absolute bare minimum for that kind of screwup.

            It is not bad budgeting to plan on spending your pay, shortly after you get it, to meet your bills!

          7. GrooveBat*

            My employer effed up payroll a couple of times. Once, they underpaid a number of my team members on their bonuses. Everyone got an immediate direct deposit correcting the error and a personal apology from me.

            The other time, they neglected to put through a raise that I’d been given and, due to the various deductions etc. that also hit my paycheck, I didn’t notice the discrepancy for like…two years. I forget how I finally uncovered it, but when I pointed it out our CFO paid the entire back amount due in a single direct deposit with a sincere, heartfelt apology. No one lectured me about how lucky I was that they were paying me what I was owed.

          8. Agile Phalanges*

            Yep, same. Except in our case it was the payroll person’s fault. The company fell over themselves fixing it, and of course those of us with direct deposit were going to have to wait another day after they caught the mistake for the file to go through, so they offered to pay any late fees (on mortgages, etc.–we were paid semi-monthly and I believe the errant payment was the one at the end of the month, right before most people’s mortgages, and possibly other bills of course, were due) that resulted, and didn’t question whether it was REALLY due to the payroll error or because you were just irresponsible–any screen shots showing late fees with a date around then were honored. It’s the least they can do. I don’t think the payroll person was fired over this particular incident, but not long after due to a pile-up of multiple incidents.

          9. JKateM*

            When our bookkeeper was working part time they once accidently put the wrong date on the checks (we didn’t have direct deposit at the time). They came in immediately when notified and rewrote all the checks and then made sure everyone was able to get it by the end of the day. Payroll mistakes are not the employees’ fault regardless of their financial status or responsibility.

        2. ArtsyGirl*

          The OP is completely out of touch. He claims that the payroll department didn’t know about the situation before the sit down, but Jane has been trying to rectify this with payroll so obviously they did. He claims that she should not speak to managers in this way which really rubs me the wrong way because it sounds like he is suggesting that Jane should respect her “betters” despite the fact that they screwed up repeatedly putting her in a tough spot. She isn’t doing the job out of goodwill, this is her career and needs to come with payment for her work. Since the OP didn’t mention what the pay schedule is but said Jane has been at the job for two months, that likely means they are paid monthly. There are tons of people (especially in entry level positions) who cannot easily pay all their bills for two months without a paycheck. This whole thing smacks of classism and agesim and possibly misogyny.

          1. Miss Muffet*

            And i didn’t read her response to this as particularly rude. It’s not like she went in slamming the tables and calling names. She is factually escalating a thing that is indeed a BFD and telling them she can’t work for them until she gets paid is not hugely disrespectful or anything. It’s a natural consequence to their actions.

            1. ArtsyGirl*

              Absolutely Miss Muffet. Jane was the model of professionalism. She tried to resolve an issue and when it wasn’t she escalated it to her manager and the payroll manager. She clearly laid out the situation, furnished emails, and told them point blank that this was seriously impacting her ability to pay bills. Honestly she was far more poised and calm than I would be in her situation. The payroll employee and the OP are the rude people here. The payroll employee because it sounds like she just shrugged her shoulders when she screwed up a second time and the OP for thinking it was unreasonable for Jane to require them to pay her salary.

            2. turquoisecow*

              Agreed. “If you don’t pay me I’m not going to keep working here,” is not disrespectful in the slightest. It’s very reasonable! It is standing up for herself, though, which OP seems to have a problem with.

            3. The Starsong Princess*

              Yes and how respect did they really deserve as “management”? It’s not like they were actually paying her.

            4. Elenna*

              This. She stated that if she’s not being paid, then she’s not going to work. That’s just a factual statement. The whole point of being employed is trading work for money. If the company isn’t holding up their end of the deal, deliberate or not, then she shouldn’t hold up hers, that’s literally how deals work.

            5. laowai_gaijin*

              Seriously, Alison couldn’t have scripted her response any better. She did exactly what she should’ve done in that situation, and I am deeply impressed.

            6. Mockingjay*

              As I read the letter, there were three,/i> distinct pay problems: the contractor pay for the writing sample, then two paychecks.

              Three incidents of nonpayment is a BIG DEAL. Jane handled it in a very professional, direct, but nonconfrontational manner: calling a meeting with the appropriate people, laying out the facts, and making it clear that this mistake cannot be repeated without consequence.

              I applaud Jane.

          2. Worldwalker*

            And probably a few other sorts of -isms as well, if we knew more about the situation.

            There are a *lot* of people who would be hurting financially if they missed two paychecks. Maybe the OP isn’t one of them, but I’d bet most of the people they manage are. And not just entry-level new hires.

            I’ve had a stressful day already and now I want to scream at this person.

            1. ArtsyGirl*

              It absolutely could be a woman writing in (someone further down mentioned how “bigger than their britches” tends to used by women). I read it as a man because of the connotations of a woman calmly advocating for herself being seen as rude and not knowing her place felt very gendered. Of course, women can also be misogynists too.

        3. Elizabeth West*

          Yeah, I said in my comment below that if a new job screwed up not one but TWO paychecks right off the bat, I would seriously be side-eyeing them and wondering what the hell kind of company I’d agreed to work for.

          1. Kat in VA*

            Not to mention that for a lot of us, two paychecks is literally an entire month’s salary!

            Blessed are those who are so fortunate that just shrugging off an entire month’s worth of pay is no big deal…

        4. fueled by coffee*

          Yeah, this happened to us once (new computer system that got thrown off by a leap year, I think?) – direct deposits were supposed to come in at midnight on March 1st; it took 12 hours for them to fix the issue. We got a company-wide apology, an offer for for letters explaining the situation printed on company letterhead to give our landlords in case anyone was late on rent, and any late fees for overdue rent or overdraft fees to our banks. It was a huge deal.

          I’m relatively stable financially and holy moly not getting my paycheck on time would put me in serious cutting corners mode. I have some money in savings, but that’s meant for emergencies, not “work hasn’t paid me — twice.”

          1. Candi*

            When was this? It’s a fairly simple method (programming segment) to handle leap years -even I can write it in Java, and I’m not good at programming. It’s been around for at least a decade, so I’m thinking older system, or someone effed up the programming.

      2. Coder von Frankenstein*

        I’m going to disagree with part of that: Payroll did not handle it splendidly, because payroll was in charge of making sure it didn’t happen in the first place, and it happened not once but *twice*.

        It’s good they recognized their error, but recognizing error is only the first step. There should have been alarm bells going off the first time it happened, and an investigation to figure out how it happened, and changes to prevent that error from recurring, and somebody double- and triple-checking to see that it didn’t happen again.

        1. OhNo*

          I can only hope that the payroll person in the meeting with Jane is going to be going back to the other payroll employee she’d been in contact with for further training. Obviously we don’t know the whole story here, but based on their (appropriate!) reaction to being called out, I have high hopes that they’re following up appropriately.

          OP, though? …. Not so much.

          1. Observer*

            Yes. It’s quite possible that the Payroll head will take appropriate action. OP? Not unless someone whacks them with a clue by four.

        2. Red5*

          This! The company should have cut a paper check the very first time it happened. The fact that they let it ride until it happened again is unacceptable. HR bending over backwards to make it right by giving her the extra funds from the hardship fund as well as Payroll immediately cutting her a paper check were the exact right things to do. This woman would have been within her rights to notify the state labor board that she wasn’t being paid timely in accordance with the law. Instead, she was kind enough to continue handling this internally, and her boss is MAD about it?! Yikes.

          1. Lea*

            The first time! Absolutely. Payroll employee who messed up probably didn’t want to admit it up to their bosses and Jane acted because actions were necessary.

        3. MCMonkeyBean*

          Yeah, I’d say payroll handled it poorly, but was at least appropriately apologetic. Jane and HR handled it perfectly.

      3. Momma Bear*

        Agreed 1000%. Wow. How OP can give Payroll so much grace and offer zero to Jane is…astonishing. Jane handled this way better than a lot of people would. Jane had every right to make it clear what her limits are. Not being paid twice is a big deal.

        I think Jane should transfer because OP doesn’t have respect for her or value her work. Jane needs a better boss and staying in this department under OP would be more of a punishment than moving. But it also sounds like that would be OP shooting themselves in the foot because Jane is otherwise a good employee.

        HR told me, “She’s right, it can’t happen again and it shouldn’t have happened at all.” – OP, please listen to HR. They are right.

        1. Observer*

          Wow. How OP can give Payroll so much grace and offer zero to Jane is…astonishing.

          That would be bad enough. But the OP is doing worse than not offering grace to Jane. They are actually criticizing behavior that doesn’t NEED grace – what the OP describes is perfectly appropriate and acceptable.

      4. Pork Rind*

        >If a new employee, especially are really, really good one like Jane (e.g. “Her work is great and she needed very little training” – this is a freaking unicorn entry-level employee) who reported to me hadn’t been paid I would have been bending over backwards for them to help fix the situation

        If I were her manager, I would have offered to give Jane a damned piggy-back ride to the bank if I thought it would make her feel better about my company.

        1. OhNo*

          Right? Shoot, I’d have been offering her a couple hours of PTO to drive to the bank in the middle of the work day, if she wanted to, or even offering to drive her myself if she wanted. The fact that she was still handling this internally was a huge concession on her part, and deserves to be recognized as such. The company should be bending over backwards to not only make it right, but to say thank you for not reporting them to the local labor board and getting them slapped with fines or legal complications.

      5. Lego Leia*

        Honestly, it sounds like the company needs to look into why this happened *3* times in a row to the same employee, and come up with a plan to make sure that this doesn’t happen in the future. Like the deposit of a dollar, just to see if it goes through.

      6. Gothic Bee*

        I had an old boss who didn’t process my hours correctly one time and she was worried I wasn’t going to get paid on time and she literally started crying when explaining what happened (it ended up that I did get paid on time). The tears were a massive overreaction, but frankly, I think I’d prefer crying to going in the opposite direction like this LW.

        Like, is this employee supposed to subsist on air until the company deigns to pay her? Of course she’s in a financial hardship. Living paycheck to paycheck is incredibly common, especially in entry-level jobs in the US, and even if you’re good with saving, moving to a new job can be a rough financial transition on its own, even if the new job pays well. Plus, she doesn’t have any experience with how the company handles these kinds of problems, so of course she feels like she has to put her foot down because she needs to be paid!! And she wasn’t even rude, she just made it clear this couldn’t happen again, which is more than fair.

        1. Amethystmoon*

          Especially considering that rent costs are very high in most of the U.S., and I think the eviction moratorium that had been imposed last year has ended. Also, considering the rising cost of food in general, not even talking about other stuff.

        2. Remedial Chaos Theory*

          Agreed wholeheartedly, but want to add: even if Jane is not living paycheck to paycheck, there could have been any number of reasons she needed that money exactly when she was supposed to have it. Frankly, “payday is Day XYZ” is enough of a reason to expect to be paid on Day XYZ!

        3. LizM*

          I don’t even live paycheck to paycheck and missing a check would cause major issues. Most of my bills that auto-debit from my bank account on payday, if the check isn’t in there, I’m going to get hit with overdraft fees even if I have savings in another account to cover it, since it can take up to a couple days (more if it’s a weekend) to transfer funds.

          1. DJ Abbott*

            If that ever happens, try calling your bank and explain what happened and ask them to reverse the fees. My bank will do that if it doesn’t happen too often.

          2. Aerin*

            Same, we’re pretty stable but I’ll sometimes schedule a bill to come out after one more paycheck just in case. If that paycheck isn’t there when it’s supposed to be, that’s not a failure of planning on my part.

      7. Meg*

        THIS. I have been in a similar situation, only HR and management’s roles were reversed. Payroll was extremely lackadaisical about the fact that I hadn’t been paid in two pay periods (one month), HR had promised to fix it after the first pay period, but nothing happened, and made the same promise right before the second, so when I didn’t get paid then I explained it all to my manager and the fact that I could not afford to work there under these conditions and he walked over to payroll and got it sorted by the end of the day and I had a big fat direct deposit in my account that very afternoon. Letter Writer is a terrible manager and shouldn’t have a position managing other human beings.

        1. Junior B*

          I had the same thing happen to me. I moved across the country for a new job for a large regional bank. Didn’t get my first biweekly paycheck; payroll explained it was an error in not having my info in the payroll system at the time payroll was calculated. But then I didn’t get paid at the next payroll date. Payroll “apologized” and said they were sure to get it right the next time- ie 2 more weeks (6 in total) without getting paid. I told my manager, and I asked him if I should come to work the next day. He told his boss- I’m not sure what happened, but I got a check overnighted to me the next day… No one complained about me taking this very seriously!

      8. MissBaudelaire*

        Precisely. If one of my team wasn’t getting paid right, I would be sorting out that situation real big real quick.

        My team isn’t there out of the kindness of their hearts, and their paychecks aren’t a door prize I give them. It is money earned.

        1. SeluciaMD*

          Some people need this on a great big sign over their desks. And/or potentially cross-stitched on a sampler or a pillow so that it stares them in the face EVERY DAY.

      9. wittyrepartee*

        Jane is sitting there sweating it out and trying to figure out if she just signed up for a company that’s never going to pay her.

      10. The OTHER Other*

        I was appalled by the LW in so many ways, but do think they were right about one thing: Jane WOULD be better off on another team. Probably true of the rest of the OP’s reports as well.

      11. Candi*

        I’m gonna tell a story about a nice manager, to offset the bad taste in everyone’s mouths.

        I was working for a small business when I dumped my abusive, controlling ex. I needed money fast for a credit check so me and my then very small kids could move in with a friend.

        I asked the owner, my boss, if I could take out a loan against my upcoming paycheck.

        She cut me my entire paycheck, three days early. Then she told me that if showed up, to tell him he was trespassing and call the police.

      12. DoggoMom*

        They really are fortunate that Jane handled it the way she did. Many people would assume two missed paychecks that the company can’t make payroll and jump ship.

      13. jy3*

        Absolutely. Even if Jane had been the worst employee on the planet, the company signed a contract and failed to uphold their obligations, which put her at risk of defaulting on her own. Telling the department responsible that they made a mistake and can they please fix it is appropriate. After they continued to NOT PAY HER FOR WORK, it would have been appropriate to go as high as necessary and say things like “wage theft”, “federal non-compliance”, and “lawsuit” if that had been what it took.

        Yes, LW, people make mistakes. The correct response to being harmed by a mistake is to tell whoever made it. The correct response to harming someone by mistake is to set it right and apologize. That she is entry-level has no bearing on this.

    4. The Gnome*

      I am stealing “high on their own farts” for personal use.

      Just thought I’d do you the courtesy of telling you first. :)

    5. Just Another HR Pro*

      I agree – all I am going to say is this: This is precisely why I never want to go any higher up in any company. You tend to forget what it is like to live paycheck to paycheck, and really rely on your paycheck to survive. Even a day late can really hurt someone – so the blasé attitude blaming her? I have seen this so many times.

      In all fairness – not all managers are like this, and not all people who are junior live paycheck to paycheck, and no all people who make more than junior wages are comfortable financially.

      1. More anon today*

        Right? I fill in for our payroll clerk sometimes and I’m always terrified I’ll screw it up and someone won’t get paid. The only thing letting me sleep at night is knowing that we have an established method for giving pay advances in cash and our managers would absolutely understand and do one if someone couldn’t wait until next week for an error to be fixed.

      2. Allornone*

        THIS. I was Covidly-unemployed for a long time, and also experienced some unexpected health issues (not-Covid) that resulted in high hospital bills (yay u.s. health system!). I lost my apartment, my car, pretty much everything, and resorted to staying with my dad and fortunately very supportive stepmother. I’m employed now, in the best job I’ve ever had, saving for a car and a new place, and just now allowing myself the luxury of buying shampoo without having to ask someone. Before this all, I had been very responsible with money. But life happens. I didn’t ask for a global pandemic to cause my lay off and make getting a new job that much harder; I didn’t ask for a series of health issues to nearly bankrupt me. All I can do is save now, work hard, and move forward. My bosses know nothing about my financial situation (except that I take the bus for now), because well, they shouldn’t. I work; they pay me for that work. It’s simple enough.

        1. RJ*

          I am so sorry all of that happened, Allornone. I am happy to hear you found the best job you’ve ever had!

          1. Allornone*

            Thank you. I admit it’s been a tough year, but I’m very happy to be coming out the other side. Looking forward to the future!

        2. OhNo*

          This is exactly why this letter has me so mad. The OP has NO IDEA what Jane’s financial or life situation is outside of work. For them to call her “irresponsible” because she ran into issues after not being paid twice? That’s a fudging MONTH with no pay. Exactly how long is she supposed to be working for free before she’s allowed to experience hardship, I wonder?

          1. Remedial Chaos Theory*

            Sounds like it actually happened THREE times, which is utterly ridiculous (assignment period, first full pay cycle, and “today”). Jane has been more than patient working a month without pay; at what point would OP have been fine with her experiencing hardship enough, or was she just magically supposed to have budgeted to work without being paid indefinitely?

          2. GammaGirl1908*

            AND THEN the sniffing that she should have saved smartly. She’s entry level. This is possibly her first job out of college or close to it. She’s a brand new employee (so maybe had a gap before starting). Where was she supposed to get the money to save? Most of us get that from, y’know, our PAYCHECKS. Which she hasn’t gotten. Because your company screwed up.

            LW apparently thinks Jane should just magically have other money from some nebulous source, and is mystified at people who need to get paid to have the money they’re supposed to be saving.

            Just, facepalm.

            1. Sandangel*

              Well Obviously she should have rich parents/spouse/sibling/patron to cover any such costs. /s

              Seriously, I was expecting a tantrum. OP should be cultivating Jane into a great employee, not tearing her down like this.

            2. Ally McBeal*

              Also, was this letter written during the 80s/90s boom? Somehow this guy missed the fact that the Great Recession in 2008 was not all that long ago, and we’ve had a global pandemic recently too. Sounds like one of those people who think the stock market IS the economy.

          3. laowai_gaijin*

            Yes, how dare she base her personal budget on the assumption that she’ll be paid for her job!

      3. Koalafied*

        Yes, I was well into my 30s before I wasn’t routinely seeing my bank account balance drop below $50 in the days leading up to payday, or routinely having ACH drafts processed 1 day after payday, because I didn’t have enough in my account to cover the charge until payday. I just didn’t earn enough to save much, and I chose to prioritize my pre-tax retirement account over having more than a couple hundred bucks at a time in cash savings because 1) my employer matched my contributions and 2) I understood the power of compound interest and that deferred taxes on retirement contributions have the most benefit the younger you are. When emergencies arose, there was always a 0% credit card deal around that I was able to pay off before it came due.

        Others may have made different choices in that situation, but I would not appreciate if someone tried to come along and just look solely at my bank account balances and act like me not having much cash savings/buffer was obviously the result of me just faffing around like the metaphorical grasshopper frittering away his days without a care in the world while winter looms, as opposed to me having carefully weighed my options and decided saving for retirement and carefully leveraging my excellent credit rating to get me through rough spots was the smartest option I had for the salary I was earning.

      4. ThatGirl*

        We are financially stable – we have 6 mos of our joint salary in savings, could survive on it for a year if we had to, and keep a cushion in checking for unexpected things. And yet. I definitely would panic if I was working and missed two paychecks.

        1. Empress Matilda*

          Right? I mean, I could do it if I had to, but I would absolutely be telling the payroll people it can’t happen again.

      5. NotAnotherManager!*

        I work with a lot of people who grew up upper middle class and have NO idea what it’s like not to be financially secure or even comfortable. I am higher up in an organization now, but I was raised in a lower middle-class home where a lot of things the people I work with take for granted were not thinkable, much less a given.

        I have to remind people of this all the time – no, you cannot ask the staff to float $100s on their credit card, even though they are paid back within a week or so; remember when you pick lunch places that, unless you are treating, you need to pick somewhere affordable for everyone; no, not everyone has a car in DC to run over to the client, they’re going to need to cab/rideshare over and charge the company; hey, maybe we can talk about something at the company lunch besides your luxury vacations and second homes.

        When I was first starting out, I was broke and thought I was lucky just not to be in debt. I am excellent with my finances but I had an entry-level job in a HCOL area and could not have gone a month or more without pay — the only people I know who could do that were being subsidized by their parents, which was not an option for me. OP’s comments are so gross that I’m appalled their company lets them manage people.

      6. Jackyw*

        This does not have to be true. I’m a senior manager and everything I do with regards to my employees is with the understanding that almost all of them probably live pay check to pay check. It’s also why I fight tooth and nail to get all of them raises every raise cycle (6 months) and to make sure I expense everything I humanly can to the company (transport, food, drinks, gym, electronics, school etc etc ). If you can actively put in effort to keep in mind what it used to be like, you can make a difference in your employees lives.

    6. Darsynia*

      Yep. My first instinct is ‘Jane needs a better boss.’

      If I force myself to be gentle, I’d alter that to say that it makes me cringe when someone thinks a direct speaker (especially a woman) is out of line for being direct, particularly when the situation warrants it. This was the best response Jane could have had. She didn’t pitch a fit, she didn’t quietly go bankrupt to save face, she simply pointed out that as a new employee, her desire to continue with the company is as directly affected as her finances when she’s not paid on time.

      I’m fully on Jane (and Alison’s) side here.

      1. Fran Fine*

        it makes me cringe when someone thinks a direct speaker (especially a woman) is out of line for being direct, particularly when the situation warrants it.

        Yup. Nothing Jane said was disrespectful; in fact, her response was incredibly restrained given the fact that this was the second pay period where she wasn’t paid on time. I would have been less polite, lol.

        1. GS*

          Right?? I’m so impressed by how calm Jane stayed and how well she handled it. A total model of professionalism.

      2. Clisby*

        +100. I was fully prepared to hear that Jane had gone postal, started throwing things, and was cussing out the payroll manager. Instead … she politely but firmly said this better not happen again. Good for her.

        1. generic_username*

          Same! OP seems offended that Jane was clear and direct about her rights and the employer’s obligations. WILD

        2. Misslucy21*

          I was also expecting that Jane had thrown a hissy cow and got violent about it from the way the letter started, so I was very taken aback when her actual reaction was described. Good Lord, manager person, that’s not a “respect gap”. Unless we’re talking about the gap between your respect for her.

        3. doreen*

          When I read the headline, I was expecting to find that Jane was one of those people who can’t tolerate anyone making a mistake ( and thinks they don’t make any themselves) and was unsatisfied with the company’s reasonable efforts to fix it. Instead, it happened multiple times, and the OP thinks she’s disrespectful for expecting to be paid.

    7. kittymommy*

      Hoo boy are you right. There is A LOT that could be said but to be calm, this LW is amazingly in the wrong here. While it would be great if everyone had the even the capability to have an emergency fund, it most certainly not the responsibility of the employee to cover the (on-going) errors of the employer, intended or not.

      LW, your company needs to get it’s crap together and YOU need to take it upon yourself that this is corrected from now on.

      1. The Rural Juror*

        I went out of town once on a Friday that also happened to be payday. I had had some unexpected expenses leading up to that and needed to make sure my payroll went through (small company, owner’s wife handled payroll, she was prone to mistakes). She was very huffy when I called to tell her mine didn’t go through and I needed her to go the bank a few blocks away from the office and deposit the check directly into my account since I was traveling.

        1) I was out of town for a friggin funeral, 2) this was probably the third time this “mistake” had happened over the course of a few months, and 3) I highly suspected they were having trouble making payroll and thought I was the one who could wait since I seemed more “financially responsible” than others. I was the only one who this ever happened to and it was especially odd since we were on direct deposit and my bank account didn’t change.

        I agree with you that it is ABSOLUTELY the company’s responsibility to make it right when things like that happen – without delay! Yes, mistakes happen, but don’t mess with people’s money and then act flippant or put out about it. Geez!

      2. Uranus Wars*

        I mean, my emergency fund is a little more than a missed paycheck…but if my paycheck doesn’t go in I am SOL with NSF fees because the accounts aren’t able to be set up for auto-transfer. On purpose.

    8. AnonInCanada*

      You just gave me the LOL I so desperately needed after reading that smug boss’s letter. Really, what high horse did he ride on before he got in front of his computer to write that?

    11. INFJedi*

      Yes… I don’t understand LW’s opinion at all.

      Jane is young, and apparently a great asset (LW’s own words!! Her work is great and she needed very little training) , according to LW Jane is supposed to have already saved quite some money to help her when she hasn’t received her salary for not one but two months? Even though she is rather young and at the start of her career? I mean, to me Jane kept her cool and was rather polite in her interactions with management and the payment employee. I’m not sure how I would have handled that in Jane’s position… i doubt it would have been as polite as Jane…

      Yeah… I don’t have anything nice to say to OP, so I’m trying not to say anything at all… because: WOW!!! My jaw is on the floor.

      1. Caliente*

        I mean even if Jane had NONE of those factors – she’s mature, she’s married, she’s got savings – she STILL needs to be paid ON TIME and would likely be pissed if she wasn’t. I know I would.

    12. UK girl*

      This is an interesting one. The employer is a good one because they give Jane compensation and did their best to put their mess up right. I think that Jane handled the situation very well calling for a meeting and being clear about the position. The manager involved needs to seriously check their attitude, when managing people you need to also look out for them, she failed in her duty towards Jane. Jane deserves a better manager.

      1. Jasper*

        Not that good an employer, because they gave her significantly less compensation than the department of labor might have gotten her.

        1. Candi*

          They made her whole and apologized. DOL would have taken longer and she might not have gotten more then the absolute minimum she was owed. And that depends on if the DOL in her state gives a faff.

      1. wittyrepartee*

        But like… the paycheck is the bootstraps. You can’t bootstrap yourself into the heavens if they took away the laces!

        1. Kella*

          This was my thought. I don’t understand how you can call someone financially irresponsible for using the money *you owe her* in her budget.

          1. Kat in VA*

            I mean, gosh, doesn’t everyone have six months of living expenses saved up in the bank for situations just like this? -my dad, probably

      2. Worldwalker*

        And remember that the original meaning of “lift yourself by your own bootstraps” was something that was *impossible* to do. It’s only recently that people of one political stripe have *expected* people to do the literally impossible.

        1. Lily of the Meadow*

          No, conservatives do NOT think one should be able to lift oneself up by one’s bootstraps, and you are showing your bias by saying so. Just because you disagree with either political party does not excuse making snap judgements like that.

          1. GovernmentEmployee*

            Obviously not all conservatives think that way but to be fair the ONLY people I have ever heard say that expression were staunch conservatives.

          2. Broadway Duchess*

            It’s absolutely not a snap judgement. It’s based off of a long time of watching, listening, and absorbing. Do all conservatives think that way? No. Do many of them? Yes.

            And Worldwalker’s point was how the meaning was corrupted from “impossible” to something wholly opposite of that.

    15. Public Sector Manager*

      OP’s letter makes me mental. In a lot of states in the U.S., failure to make payroll on time is treble damages. Why? Because getting paid on time for your labor is a HUGE issue! I think Jane, as a new employee, handled this splendidly. Accounting needs some remedial training on what it means to fix a problem, but at least they acknowledged that getting paid on time is a HUGE issue! The OP is living in the 1920’s. OP, your response is so tone deaf that you need training on the basic ins and outs of what it means to be a manager. If I was your boss and read this, best case scenario is you’d be on a PIP.

      OP, you need to check yourself.

      1. Candi*

        Yeah. The company didn’t give Jane the hardship stuff just to be nice -they also do not want her going to the DOL. That would cause the company some merry havoc if the DOL in their state gives half a rat’s tail about the situation. (The DOL in my state would be very unhappy. Granny Weatherwax level very unhappy.)

        1. SykesFive*

          This was my thought as well. The company likely had some potential legal exposure here. Besides an enforcement action by some state agency, there could also have been the risk of the employee herself suing. It’s not uncommon for wage theft to carry treble damages, court costs, attorneys’ fees, and possibly even statutory penalties, plus antiretaliation rules. So imagine having to fork over the equivalent of a year’s salary plus walk on eggshells around Jane because any adverse action could be characterized by her as retaliation.

    17. Nayo*

      Letters like these are why I love the word “Yikes.” It conveys so many emotions in one syllable!

    18. Yikesyikesyikes*

      I’m counting three times not paid…first paycheck, contract work during interview process, and now second paycheck.

    19. bellalye*

      Tangentially related: when the Roman Emperor Claudius died, he apparently did so with a such monstrous fart that some poet (I think it was Martial?) immortalized his death with the phrase “he farted out his soul”.

      2. Bibliothecarial*

        The pumpkinification of Claudius! I haven’t thought about that since Latin class. It’s technically called the Apocolocyntosis of Claudius and was written by Seneca. That’s how I learned vulgar Latin ;)

    21. VGar*

      Thank you for your thoughtful and important reply to this person! Companies and organizations run on the contributions of the Janes of the world. Bravo Jane!

    22. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

      I don’t think I’ve ever seen 1400 comments accumulate over a 5-hour time span in the several years that I’ve been following this blog. Really hope OP learned something today!

    27. ITisnotEZ*

      Yeah, one thing I’ve learned, having been on both sides of the conversation at one time or another, is you do not, EVER, f*** with an employees paycheck. That is the fastest way, bar none, to lose an employee.

    28. fixen2vixen*

      Last paragraph sums it up beautifully.

      —-
      Somewhere along the way, you picked up a very warped idea of what employees owe their employers, but you don’t seem to have thought much about what employers owe their employees. You urgently need to do some rethinking and recalibration if you’re going to continue managing people.

    29. Danny k*

      This employer doesn’t even deserve employees if they even believe one percent of what they wrote in this article

    30. Ricama*

      I think I can manage to be kind. I learned something from this article, I learned how to dress someone down respectfully and politely. Allison has of course done a wonderful job I just wanted to add a little something.

      LW says he doesn’t think she managed her money well, I will counter with: his company did not manage her money well. I really feel the need to point out that not getting paid on time is a huge red flag to a new employee, there is no way to tell if it’s from an honest mistake that should never happen in the first place or if it’s an indication that the company is in the process of failing and they’ll find themselves with no job or last paycheck 6 months down the road.

    32. Grace*

      That’s extremely unprofessional of management! If anything the person doing payroll should get fired! Also, superiors??? You’re so full of yourself! How about get off your high horse and treat people as equals!

    33. Database Developer Dude*

      I, for one, hope Alison’s -not- going to have a tight rein on the comments, but will completely understand if she does, because if she lets this one go, just because it’s egregious and an immediate candidate for worst boss of the year (decade? century?) then that’ll make it harder for her to have a tight rein on the next one.

      But this…..this letter takes all the cakes….. If the LW gets vitriol, they deserve every single bit of it. As a black man who’s been in the corporate world (federal contracting as software and database engineer) for 20 years, I so feel Jane’s situation.

  2. Emi*

    You guys are super lucky she didn’t file with the Labor Department, which might have resulted in things like treble damages, depending on the state.

    2. zuzu*

      Absolutely! OP, *this* is why HR fell all over itself to cut her a check and give her $500 in emergency funds — they were trying to keep the company from having to pay her 3x the withheld pay!

      1. RabbitRabbit*

        Yup. It’s a legal requirement to get paid promptly, and screwing it up TWICE is just asking for trouble. This is one of the few slam-dunk easy complaints to make about an employer to one’s state Department of Labor.

        1. Worldwalker*

          Legal requirement.
          Ethical requirement.
          Religious requirement.
          It’s pretty hard to find any kind of requirement that it isn’t.

        2. Amy*

          It does make me wonder exactly how the payroll employee screwed up because I know at my job if our direct deposit doesn’t go through a check is automatically cut. Since I’m not in payroll I don’t know how automated that process is but it seems to be pretty standard at most places I’ve worke

          1. Bex*

            Interesting, that is not at all automated at the company where I work in payroll. We automatically get a notification if a direct deposit bounces back (generally on the Monday after a Friday check date) but everything after that (or before, if they employee already reported the issue) is done manually, from correcting the account info. to cutting a check if that’s the employee’s preference (often they prefer to wait and be reimbursed on the next week’s check, rather than having to deal with picking up and depositing a check).

          2. Sarah*

            When this same issue happened to me a paycheck was cut. It was just left in a To Be Delivered mailbox in the payroll department which was located in an entirely different city and that no one knew that it was there. Big company incompetence.

          3. lailaaaaah*

            It wasn’t automated at my old employer, but if an employee wasn’t paid we would have manually sent them an emergency deposit as soon as we were notified + marked their next payslip as high priority for payroll checking processes. If we’d fucked up and not paid someone twice, the consequences would have been Bad.

      3. thisgirlhere*

        She also may have incurred late fees or interest that the company absolutely should be paying for

      4. Daniel G*

        Wish I had known about this.

        I worked for a top tier university as a research assistant. They strung me along delaying my pay for over a month.

        It got to the point that I wrote a very tense email to HR and felt called out by the department because they where doing me “ a favor” since I was not a student in their university with an endowment that might rival the GDP of some countries.

        Little did they know but I had absolutely no other source of income (actually they should have known this detail which is why the professor was advocating for me to work on his project). I felt forced to eat food that had gone well past its expiration date and got severely ill. Still worked while with the stomach flu and not getting paid.

        Literally had to make $40 stretch for like 3 weeks this being my first job and my family living 1000 miles away.

        This story hit very close.

        1. Ally McBeal*

          Ooh, I had a similar experience in college. My university was big enough that there was already a grad student with the same first name, middle initial, and last name there when I arrived on campus, so my pay got stuck in the system for a couple weeks. I was low-income and on work-study, and had to follow up with them constantly to get things moving while subsisting on Easy Mac.

        2. Finner*

          I had a similar experience in grad school. I got a research fellowship my second year (yay!) so I was going from being paid as a Teaching Assistant to the fellowship (which paid once per month). Well, the university grant admin screwed up the first fellowship paycheck. When I went to talk with them, she told me I’d just get paid double next month. I asked her how I was supposed to pay my bills and she actually said “What bills do you have?” Um, ALL OF THEM. ALL OF THE BILLS. PLUS FOOD, GAS, ETC. I was so pissed. My advisor lent me money. At the time I felt so embarrassed to borrow money from her, but now I realize I should not have felt bad at all.

    3. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Yes, Jane was INCREDIBLY gracious in this situation. Much more professional than I think I would have been after not getting paid for that long.

      1. HoHumDrum*

        Yeah, no kidding!

        Two pay periods in my job = a month with no pay. I would absolutely not be able to pay rent after missing a month of pay, and my savings would be utterly depleted meaning that I would be unable to weather any financial hardship or emergencies for months to come even after they started paying me again. I would have been in absolute hysterics and raging, I suspect Jane is both very controlled AND a savvy saver who is careful with budgeting if she handled all this with such grace.

        2. Koalafied*

          Yep, and there’s also that lag when you start a new job where you work for 2 weeks Monday-Friday and then get paid for those 2 weeks on the third Friday, so the first paycheck actually takes 3 weeks.

        3. CCed*

          Worse…LW mentions she’s been there for 2 months!!
          When the financial advisors usually say 3-6 months, the fact that Jane has managed to weather that long (plus however long she was unemployed beforehand) shows she is amazingly fiscally responsible.

          1. Your Local Password Resetter*

            I completely forgot about that!
            At best the company missed like a quarter of all it’s payroll dates. At worst they missed literally every single one. That is astonishingly bad.

      2. PolarVortex*

        Same thoughts I had. I would’ve been kind for the first week after the first missed paycheck. Then I would’ve started raising hell and speaking about the legal responsibilities of the company.

        1. EPlawyer*

          Especially after they said it was fixed and it wasn’t. So not only did they not pay Jane but they lied about the problem.

          Sadly we will never get an update because the LW didn’t hear what they wanted to hear from Alison.

          1. JB*

            I mean, ‘lied’ is a strong term. It sounds like the payroll employee genuinely thought they had fixed it. And when it turned out they hadn’t, head of payroll (I assume? Since LW says this person wasn’t aware of what was happening, they must not have been the same employee that Jane was corresponding with) made things right immediately.

            Honestly, the only person behaving out of turn here is LW, which makes it even more bizarre.

            And you never know – people have been upset by Alison’s reality checks before but have still come back with updates. Like that whole saga with the LW who bullied one of her reports off her team.

            1. Eldritch Office Worker*

              I have a few other thoughts about the reading that the head of payroll wasn’t informed about a serious legal infraction that the payroll employee clearly didn’t know how to properly address (a check should have been cut long before this) but that’s a different letter.

            2. Avocado's Number*

              That one sounds like interesting reading. Can you link to it? I remember the one who wouldn’t let the employee have her birthday off, that was a fun one.

              2. Candi*

                There’s also:

                “I’m jealous of my attractive employee, working for free when changing careers, and more”, #1. That OP reacted badly at first, but got better update by update, especially by the second one.

          2. RealPerson01*

            >So not only did they not pay Jane but they lied about the problem.

            I don’t think we have the information to know this. It very well could have been a mistake that lead to more mistakes, and that the employee working on fixing the issue truly thought it was solved, but was incorrect.

            That doesn’t make it acceptable, but I don’t see any reason to think the payroll or HR employee was acting in bad faith through this ordeal, they seemed to be the ones trying to actually solve the issues, especially since they went and got the approval for a cheque to be cut, and using the employee relief fund to help out the new employee after their screwup.

            1. MeleMallory*

              Yes, especially if they use an outside payroll service. We have a dedicated Payroll Specialist at my office, but she sends all the information to an outside payroll service who actually dispense the checks/direct deposits. It’s possible the Payroll employee sent the correct information (or what she thought was the correct information) to the outside service and *they* didn’t fix it.

              If it’s all done in-house, it could have just been a typo, or payroll entered the information but forgot to press save, or it was done after a deadline. There are a lot of things that can go wrong with payroll.

    4. Rayray*

      Definitely. She handled this super well by having a meeting with her manager and payroll. She was firm because it is a very big deal to not get paid for her work on time. She even tried handling it just with payroll but had to escalate it when they dropped the ball.

      She absolutely would have been within her rights to file with the labor board but she went to her company first which actually was incredibly respectful and definitely the right thing to do.

      1. Krabby*

        Not even mentioning that this is her first pay, so she has seen no track record other than them failing to fix the issue (while saying it was fixed), and no way of knowing if late payments are par for the course with this company. Either way, she deserves immediate recourse, but she also had no reason to give her employer the benefit of the doubt.

        1. Carol the happy elf*

          Especially the first few, and ESPECIALLY if you’re new to the area.

          No excuse for not getting it right, out of the gate. Absolutely no excuse for not getting it right after the first total screwed up payday, and a SECOND payday?

          This is the time for everyone in the chain to fall on their own swords.

          Did HR/Payroll give her letters of apology to mail or email to ALL of her creditors and her bank, plus one to each of the major credit reporting companies??
          Because this rock in the pond has more ripples than OP can comprehend, and Jane is going to feel the effects for months!

      2. Candi*

        In my state, each missed check (including the independent/contractor assignment) would have been a separate charge and a separate set of fines, if the DOL wasn’t feeling generous. They love clear-cut cases like this.

        Worst place I ever worked, violated OSHA and other laws and regs all over the place, still didn’t cross the DOL.

    6. Warrant Officer Georgiana Breakspear-Goldfinch*

      I hope she does. This is straight-up wage theft.

      Also I hope she is on the alert for retaliation from OP. (OP: do not retaliate. That is also illegal.) Good news is, Jane seems to have a good understanding of her rights and responsibilities and boundaries and I hope she continues to!

      And yes, people make mistakes, but this isn’t the company newsletter going out with “the boob club will be reading Thinking Fast and Slow”, this is payroll. If one person can make a mistake that screws up someone’s income for two pay cycles, your system is a problem and needs to be fixed immediately.

      2. M2*

        They should get rid of the person in payroll who keeps making this mistake. Mistakes happen, but if the same person made the same mistake 3X time for a major PiP or let them go!

        1. Fran Fine*

          Yeah, that person clearly doesn’t know what they’re doing. They either need to be retrained or moved to another department because payroll isn’t for them. That’s entirely too important a function for this many mistakes. Then you have to wonder, is this person even processing withholdings correctly? Will the employee be on the hook for taxes not paid or lose out on benefits because the payroll employee doesn’t know what they’re doing? I’d be very concerned if I were the HR rep.

          1. Properlike*

            This happened to me when I started a new job. The HR person did not have attention to detail and misspelled my name putting it in the system — the system that generated all my logins, etc. I reported for a full day of (unpaid) training and couldn’t access any of the systems! Finally figured it out, HR person did not exercise any urgency. Then she used the wrong name when and birthdate when she sent in my information to the state retirement system, and that became a rigamarole. I forgot what the third thing was, but the HR manager was very anti-humans. Finally I had to introduce myself to the VP for HR (gotta love academia) who quickly got it sorted.

            This HR department did a ton of illegal crap that the employee union had to fight, but that’s a whole other story. The HR dept at the LW’s company is *amazing*, but I have the sense that the one person whose mistakes caused this may not have very good judgment if everyone else was completely unaware of it until it reached a critical phase.

          2. Observer*

            I’d be very concerned if I were the HR rep.

            I’d also be concerned that the OP didn’t make sure that their employee’s information was properly entered into the system. That’s part of basic in boarding. Just like making sure your people have their building access, computer / equipment, log ins, etc.

            1. HQB*

              I manage nearly 2 dozen people, on a few different teams. I have nothing to do with any of those things, and my company is set up so that none of it is remotely under my purview. What I can do is escalate issues like this if they are brought to me. We have plenty to fault OP for, there is no need to expand the scope to things they may not have anything to do with. :)

              1. Observer*

                Well, that’s just the thing. The manager may not be the one entering people in the various systems, but it’s part of their job to make sure that it does get done. And it’s almost unheard of for a manager to not at least basically sign off on people’s timesheets / timecards. If that’s not standard practice at the OP’s company, then they have some pretty big governance problems.

                1. StlBlues*

                  I disagree. I’ve managed many people. I have never once had to approve timecards. I have also never once been involved in an employee’s payroll.

                  Would I help if there was a problem? YES! I’d escalate to everyone and make tons of noise to get it fixed. But I have ZERO official role to play in any of the set up.

                  I’m with HQB. There are many many things to blame the OP for, but trying to tack this on without more information is unhelpful.

              2. Candi*

                I find it telling that Jane didn’t loop in OP until that meeting with payroll and HR. I wonder what she was observing or hearing from other people in the department that she didn’t at least give OP a “FYI, this is happening”. From reading AAM, it seems slightly odd -most people here would tell their managers “just so you know, payroll’s screwed up my pay. I’m working with them on it.”

            2. Elsajeni*

              I don’t know, that’s getting into stuff that I wouldn’t expect the manager to be able to check, let alone correct — like, if the issue was a typo in her bank account number or something, not only do I not expect my manager to catch that, I don’t want my manager to know my banking information or have access to where HR/payroll/whoever has entered it in the payroll system. Making sure that stuff is set up, or that you know where to send your employee to get it set up on their first day, sure — but making sure that it’s set up correctly and no one has, like, entered the wrong date of birth or made a spelling error, I think is beyond what you can reasonably expect of the manager.

              1. Observer*

                It doesn’t sound like a simple typo in the direct deposit information or anything like that. Although I suppose it’s possible that the Payroll person was just flat out knowingly lying about fixing the problem. But in that case, it should be clear to the OP that this is totally NOT just a matter of “people make mistakes.”

                Then again, it’s possible that the OP’s dislike of Jane and her really weird attitude about pay is skewing her point of view, so I won’t say that it’s not possible. Either way, something that competent HR should be worried about.

        2. lailaaaaah*

          Exactly this. I’d also be taking a hard look at company payroll processes, because clearly *something* must have gone majorly wrong for this to happen twice in a row.

      3. RosyGlasses*

        And wage theft is now criminal in California under Grand Theft – so huge whammy if they are in Cali.

    7. Snarkus Aurelius*

      That’s precisely why HR is bending over backwards here for Jane.

      Management is clearly aware of the legal consequences here!

    9. Mona-Lisa Saperstein*

      Yeah, I am a lawyer, and this was my first thought, too. The company MAJORLY screwed up, and they’re paying a small fee ($500 emergency fund) so that they might try to avoid paying her salary twice over.

    10. Tib*

      Yes, plus it seems payroll didn’t write her a make-up check after the first catch. I’ve done payroll and if we/I made a mistake underpaying someone, we cut a check to fix it that day. It did not and cannot wait until the next pay period. The law says you must be paid within x days of the end of a pay period. Entering a check cut out of the paycheck run can be a pain but it’s significantly less pain than causing the company trouble with both the Labor Department and other employees. I had to squash enough rumors of no pay on pay day as it was.

      1. Lifelong student*

        I was looking to see if anyone had said this. There is no reason an emergency check could not have been cut immediately after the direct deposit failed. Actually, the fact that that did not happen makes me question the professionalism of the whole company!

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Just two: the payroll minion, and our LW.
          HR and the head of payroll are doing fine.

          1. Observer*

            I wonder, though. Because the incompetence of the payroll person is pretty bad. So I wonder about training, supervision and processes here.

        2. rl09*

          “There is no reason an emergency check could not have been cut immediately after the direct deposit failed.”

          There’s no *good* reason. But the actual reason is most likely that cutting an emergency check like that usually requires the signatures of upper management (at one company I worked at, the check had to be signed by the CFO), so whoever made the mistake would have had to (1) own up to it immediately, and (2) escalate their own mistake to the C-level at their company. (Which, of course, would have been the right thing to do.)

          I feel like the fact that the manager of payroll didn’t know about it until now is very telling. Someone on that team made a mistake, and instead of alerting their boss they tried to correct it quietly on their own, hoping no one else would find out.

          1. Candi*

            Since payroll manager knows about it now, I suspect someone’s on a PIP. If they didn’t just get booted for the whole not handling important legal stuff properly, and not escalating when the first mistake happened.

            (It’s payroll. I expect management to be looped in at the first foul-up, as a CYA move if nothing else.)

            1. Lexi Lynn*

              I wonder if the OP is on a PIP. I would expect the head of payroll or HR to mention that one of their managers was considering retaliation. I’d be terrified that the OP would try to influence their direct reports to not complain about errors and put the company in more legal jeopardy.

              1. Candi*

                I think it’s payroll audit time in OP’s department. I think it’s reasonable to wonder how many of OP’s reports have problems they’ve been discouraged from reporting because it’s “questioning management”.

      2. Aitch Arr*

        I used to run payroll and what Tib says is spot on.

        When I messed up the couple of times I did (e.g., paying commission as the whole payment for the pay period instead of in addition to the base salary; ah, ADP when we sent the file via modem!), as soon as I figured it out, I was at my VP’s door with a check request form to cut the employee a live check that day to either be handed to them or sent via FedEx.

        I also emailed and called the employee and apologized; letting them know a live check was on its way and if they incurred any overdraft fees to expense them.

    11. David*

      Plus, depending on the state, she might have been able to come after the payroll agent personally for damages + fees. (Or go with the defense of “careless & inadvertent non-payment”, which this might well be, but opens up an another can of risk)

      1. Governmint Condition*

        In my state, you have actually have to sue your immediate supervisor. They are primarily responsible to make sure you are paid. Even if the payroll department screwed up. Even if the courier with the paychecks got stuck in a blizzard. Or, in my case, even if the government shuts down and your employees still have to work because they are essential, but they can’t cut the checks until the shutdown ends.

          1. Working Hypothesis*

            “I don’t know what young people are coming to these days! In my era, we were expected to accept wage theft from our companies whenever they felt like it, and would never THINK of suing our superiors!!”

            Which I mean, is probably true, at least if LW is old enough. But there are reasons we have better workers’ protection laws now.

            1. Carol the truly pissed off elf*

              We were so grateful to have a job that we dug our own coal out of the mountain for heating!
              We brought our own goose to pluck quills to write with, and we made our own paper.
              So Jane should kiss our- feet- in gratitude.

              1. Candi*

                “We were so grateful to have a job that we dug our own coal out of the mountain for heating!”

                Which the company then charged the workers chunks of company scrip for. Reminds me of the song:

                Saint Peter don’t you call me ’cause I can’t go
                I owe my soul to the company store.

                1. Governmint Condition*

                  This reminds me of Monty Python’s Four Yorkshiremen sketch, in which four men each tried to top the others’ hardship stories with their own. It culminates with one man saying they actually had to pay the mill owner for permission to work there, and work for 29 hours a day!
                  (It’s better if you just search for the video online.)

                3. Candi*

                  It seems to be the level of deference they expect. Even Titus Salt, who treated his workers halfway decently, did it to incur loyalty and have the pick of the best workers.

        2. Observer*

          In my state, you have actually have to sue your immediate supervisor.

          Maybe for things that are only a problem on a state level. But Federal law does not require you to sue your supervisor. The ultimate responsibility is on the employer and that’s who you / the Feds go after.

    12. Bilateralrope*

      Yeah. She cut the company a lot of slack here. I’ve done the same when my employer messed up my pay because they have always corrected it reasonably quickly after I informed them of the error.

      Had she heard any of the attitude in this letter, I’d expect that slack to vanish.

    13. BaalLikeBocce*

      At an old job, I switched from contract to full time and in the transition I stopped earning annual leave. I alerted Payroll and they fixed it for the fourth pay period but I was missing the 18 hours from those initial three pay periods. Not quite as serious as not getting paid, but I still wanted my hours! (both to take and to get paid out when I left) After *a year* of both me and my department admin emailing HR and Payroll asking them to do a leave audit and give me my missing leave, I mentioned the problem offhand to a coworker who turned out to be the VP of the Union. One email from her and the problem was not only resolved within the next pay period, but they discovered that they’d been calculating my accrual rate incorrectly and I was actually owed *81* hours of leave. Not DoL, but even just the perception of Union interest in the issue was effective. OP’s Payroll department sounds amazing and definitely something that should be commended and appreciated.

  3. H.H.*

    Wow… good for Jane for sticking up for herself!! I can’t even imagine the stress I would be under if I missed multiple paychecks without any info about when they’d come in.

    1. Office Lobster DJ*

      Agreed. Good for Jane!

      As for the rest, it’s so out of touch that it’s a good thing I’m wearing a mask, or flies could have flown in my open mouth.

      1. kittymommy*

        I will say the one thing the LW said that I agree with is yes, Jane would be better off in another department. The utter lack of understanding or empathy from her current manager is mind-boggling.

        1. Frally*

          Good point! Jane should move to another department with a different manager- I would not want to work for a manager who had these views. And good for Jane for sticking up for herself! OP, you are utterly, completely in the wrong. Please don’t treat Jane badly because of this.

        3. JB*

          I’d argue that Jane is fine where she is, but both she and the company would do better with a more competent manager leading this department.

          I mean, if this is how LW reacts to something as serious as a payroll mistake, what does their day-to-day management style look like?

        4. Captain America*

          Imagine not being completely mortified that your new employee has not received pay after a month or so of starting, and taking it further by suggesting the employee is being rude by wanting to receive her pay. Yikes. Like her “superiors” are actually superior to her in real life.

    2. JustaTech*

      Seriously. This happened to another student worker in my lab one summer and he was too embarrassed to say anything until he ran out of food. Our professor was horrified and spent the rest of the day hunting down the finance people and buying the poor kid some groceries.

      If I was risking being behind on rent or utilities there’s no way I would have been as composed and professional as Jane. Good on her!

        1. Blackcat*

          Unfortunately, it is *really* common for this to happen to graduate students.
          Really, really common.
          It puts many in financial hardships.
          I think it’s the decentralized nature of payroll at large universities where many graduate student roles have different structures of pay (untaxed fellowship, stipend, normal W2 payroll, etc). But my department always warns graduate students that they may not get paid the first pay-cycle when their role changes and to please, please, notify the department administrator ASAP if that happens. The department does what it can, but the payroll folks don’t always keep up.

          1. KHB*

            Oh, I know. When I was in grad school, there were plenty of payroll snafus where our paychecks would get lost or delayed. Fortunately, they were always transparent about what was happening and worked quickly to make it right, and my adviser told us that she would gladly give us an interest-free loan out of her own pocket if we ever needed one. I was lucky.

            1. AnonEmu*

              Lucky! Us TAs once all had to wait more than 2 weeks for our (monthly) paycheck and when we marched en masse to the door of the person who could fix it, we got a lecture about “fiscal responsibility” and “we should all be more frugal, and have roommates to save money”, etc. Which we were already doing! (Except me, but I have a health issue that at the time made finding roommates tricky and I’d just gotten out of a situation where a bad roommate had been making my health issues worse). And this was in Bay Area CA, and it was widely known you had to live in town to get campus jobs bc people who lived even one town over got lower priority bc “what if you’re late bc traffic”, and that meant paying the insane rents bc NIMBYs concerned about traffic also voted down new apartment buildings (but were fine with more McMansions). I remember being SO MORTIFIED I had to call my landlady and explain the situation and ask if I could get an extension just that once, which she agreed to, but it was an absolutely mortifying experience.

          2. kt*

            One reason I left my university is that they kept dropping *health care* for grad students and postdocs. It made me afraid that there was another layer of financial mismanagement approaching the criminal, frankly.

      2. KRM*

        Every year my grad student department would fail to remember that I was a part of their department even though I worked for a PI in a different department. So I would not get my once a month paycheck in May. Luckily I 1-had a very close friend in the administration who ALWAYS caught the error and made them cut me a check a week late and 2-had a mom who could help cover my rent for a week (because let’s be honest, as a grad student, I didn’t have extra $$ for that). And it prevented me from having to deal with notoriously stupid bursar’s office (fellow grad student didn’t get a check, got the 80% advance from the bursar, got no check, and then they tried to take the 80% advance out of the NEXT check. Lather, rinse, repeat for 3 months). It was awful and you better believe that I would not have been as composed as Jane had I needed to fight for this myself instead of having my admin friend catch it, get it fixed ASAP, and then give me the heads up at least 3 days in advance.

      3. Worldwalker*

        I need more caffeine. My mind presented me with the image of the professor hunting down the finance people *for* groceries. Hot roast accountant!

      4. Kella*

        I just wonder how long Jane’s boss expected her to just… go along with not being paid? How much free work would have been the “respectful” amount to offer as leeway for their mistake(s)?

      5. JustaTech*

        To clarify, this student was an undergrad, so his “rent” (dorm costs) were covered, and I assume he was still on his parent’s health insurance (an assumption but not unreasonable).

    3. Sharkie*

      Right?!?
      My old company once missed payroll (small company, it was the first paycheck of the year so there was the weirdness of having time off for the holidays and the payroll person was out sick) causing me to miss a rent payment. Not only did HR cut me a check, they contacted my landlord directly ( with my permission) so that the company was charged for all the late fees.

      I haven’t seen a manager so illogical since the Leap Day letter.

      1. Fran Fine*

        Not only did HR cut me a check, they contacted my landlord directly ( with my permission) so that the company was charged for all the late fees.

        This is awesome and exactly what companies need to do when they make a mistake of this magnitude.

          1. Koalafied*

            Posting links will hide the comment until Alison gets a chance to review and approve, so I’ll post in the next comment for future readers’ ease but if you search “is it rude to shush someone” it’ll be letter #3 in that post. Essentially the company had an employee perk where you got your birthday off as a bonus PTO day and the manager was using Pirates of Penzance rules.

            So many parts of it were enraging. First there was the fact that when other employees’ birthdays fell on weekends, they got to take the following Monday in lieu – so the LW weren’t even being rigid about it having to be the exact date of your birthday, she just was willing to die on the hill that people born on Leap Day don’t have birthdays and that this somehow mattered when it came to benefits entitlement.

            Then came the update some time later where the LW doubled-down and reasserted their belief that their interpretation was correct and Alison and the entire comments section were simply wrong.

      3. A Poster Has No Name*

        My company had some kind of payroll issue once, many years ago and we didn’t get paid (big company, not sure if it was everyone or just certain departments, but it wasn’t just me). They cut us checks by Monday and paid any overdrafts or fees anyone had incurred for the paychecks not arriving on time.

      4. Fabulous*

        OMG I forgot about the Leap Day letter! I still can’t believe that manager dug in their heals in their update either – so bizarre!

      5. RJ*

        “I haven’t seen a manager so illogical since the Leap Day letter.”

        This was my exact thought, along with “I wonder if OP will write an update and double down”.

      6. Elizabeth West*

        Oh my gosh, that was really good of them.

        OldExJob had a couple of payroll snafus one time. I think they changed companies, and there were some glitches, but they cut checks for those pay periods. Bosswife liked to pass out pay stubs herself and she wrote “LIVE CHECK” on the outside of the envelopes, too.

        It was inconvenient to have to go to the bank—there wasn’t time to go at lunch so I couldn’t do it until after my skating lesson on Saturday, and that was cutting it close since the bank closed at noon. At least we didn’t have to deal with not getting paid at all!

      7. jy3*

        Seriously.

        When you make a mistake that harms someone, you apologize and fix it. When someone makes a mistake that harms you, you tell them, and then if they ignore you, you find someone who can make them fix it. Literal kindergarteners are expected to have a better grasp of how this should have been handled than LW does.

    4. MissGirl*

      This isn’t even all about not being able to pay immediate bills. I have a six-month emergency fund so if I lost a paycheck I’d survive fine but I would still be adamant about being paid on time. I would also be very, very concerned if I asked for it to be fixed, told it was, and still wasn’t paid. I would wonder about my job security and if I should start job hunting immediately.

      The big reason I work and everyone else works is for a paycheck. Take that away and we’re not happy. I’m very glad HR and the company handled this appropriately and hope the OP learns from this.

    5. Antennapedia*

      Based on time worked and the math, it sounds like Jane had not been paid by the organization IN THE ENTIRE TIME SHE HAD WORKED THERE. Which… that’s huge. I’d also be polite but firm in explaining that I would not be working for free.

    6. Linds Gee*

      I had this happen to me and my colleague CONSISTENTLY in the first 2 years we were at our job. I got better at handling it and advocating for myself, but I wish I’d had the confidence of this employee. She sounds like a badass who knows her worth. Our HR made similar comments to OP, more or less “Oh it’s only $300, it’s not that much so we’ll just add it to your next paycheck” . Like no, $300 is not an insignificant amount of money and nobody gets to decide that for you. I insisted I be cut a check that afternoon and they eventually did.

      1. Iron Chef Boyardee*

        “Our HR made similar comments to OP, more or less ‘Oh it’s only $300, it’s not that much so we’ll just add it to your next paycheck.'”

        My reply to that would be “Okay, HR, if $300 isn’t that much, then you give me my $300 right now, and when I get my next check I’ll give it back.”

      2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        “Oh it’s only $300, it’s not that much…”

        Arrrggggghhhhh!!!

        In the US, there was a 2021 study that suggested something like 40% of people can’t afford an unexpected $1,000 bill. $300 is a lot of money for many of us, especially when we budgeted for it.

        Blargh…

    7. lcsa99*

      Absolutely. I’ve been where Jane was. My first job after moving across the country to the big city, I basically had to beg for my check every pay period. If I wanted it ON pay day and not the day (or week later, if it landed on a Friday) I had to stay after work off the clock to wait for the big boss to get around to signing the checks. I had no clue how bad or illegal any of that was then.

      This woman is in an entry level position and was able to speak up for herself confidently and with a cool head. LW has no idea how professional and competent her employee really is.

  4. Girl Alex PR*

    I am flabbergasted that anyone could think this way. I am much further along in my career and make good money, but two months without a paycheck would still put me in a tight spot. OP, you need a lesson in leadership… and empathy.

      2. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

        I’d actually in all seriousness recommend that OP sit down and seriously think how they’d cope if they had a situation of not being paid for longer than their savings/borrowing can hold out.

        Because it’s a situation that can happen to anyone. Try to think how you’d cope with no money in the bank, bills due, rent/mortgage falling behind and no hope of acquiring the money. It’s not pleasant, I’ve been there and there are no magic bootstraps to pull yourself up with.

        1. KHB*

          It’s not, necessarily, a situation that can happen to anyone. Some people really do have enough resources they can draw on (either in their own bank accounts, or from helpful family members, etc.) that they’re pretty much immune from almost anything life can throw at them (at least financially speaking). The way OP talks about Jane’s supposed “irresponsibility” makes me think that she might be one such person.

          And if she is, your exercise, unfortunately, might backfire, because it would just reinforce her thinking that she’s one of the good, responsible ones, whereas everyone else’s problems are all their own faults.

          1. Candi*

            Totally, 100% spitballing here -but I’ve heard “should budget better” talk like OP’s from people who believe in prosperity gospel, about people for whom the concept of a budget involves hoping you have more than a dollar in change left the day before payday.

            I have a whole rant on stupid the concept is and how it misapplies cause and effect, but now’s neither the time or place.

          3. Worldwalker*

            A spouse with a good job is a common one. But even that can come to a sudden and unexpected end when the spouse becomes ill, loses the job, divorces them, etc.

          1. Your Local Password Resetter*

            While their boss lectures them on how incompetent they are and refuses to help.

    2. Presea*

      The common fiscal wisdom that I’ve seen is to have 3-6 months of emergency savings, depending on factors like what your personal expenses actually are, how quickly you think you could get another job if you lost your current one, and if you have any dependents. So even if Jane is at the right intersection of fiscal responsibility and privilege to have a 3 month emergency savings (neither of which are her employers business) – two months without a paycheck is still a massive hardship that completely justifies her needing to jump ship if it continues for a third month!

      1. Presea*

        Oh, and also – I have a 3 month emergency savings myself. If I lost my income, I would definitely be letting whatever bills I could go as long as I could to try to make it stretch as long as possible. Because prioritizing how you use a limited amount of money /is/ a form of financial responsibility in the right circumstances.

        (And none of this is to say that Jane is obligated to be a certain amount of financially responsible! She’s not. I’m just trying to illustrate that nothing in this letter suggests even a little that she /isn’t/ a reasonably financially responsible person)

        1. DANGER: Gumption Ahead*

          Thing is Jane didn’t lose her income. She was working for pay and thus should not be obligated to tap her savings. That is for emergencies, not for covering employer incompetence.

          1. Presea*

            I consider not being paid for any reason a form of losing income for the purposes of having an emergency fund, which is also why I said ‘lost income’ instead of ‘lost job’. I absolutely agree with your overall point that she shouldn’t be obligated to tap her savings, but the company still put her in the exact same financial situation she would have been if she was fired or laid off – a worse one, actually, specifically *because* she had the reasonable expectation to be paid – and tapping into her emergency savings/whatever emergency net she has is exactly what she had to do.

          2. AnonInCanada*

            Bingo! Why is the company’s ineptness in getting Jane her legally required pay into her hands on time her problem? And this OP is an ass for even vaguely suggesting Jane should be on top of her finances. Like I said in another thread: what high horse did this ass step off before writing Alison?

        2. Just Another Zebra*

          Before the pandemic, our household income was $100k (ish). Then my husband lost his job (catering manager at a hotel), and my hours got cut. We had very healthy savings. We were OK. Then our roof had to be replaced. Again, we had healthy savings and family who was able to assist us. We were OK… but much less so. Then our cars needed servicing. Another “thing”, and we would have decidedly NOT been OK. My husband eventually got a new job nine months later. If his new employer didn’t pay him for two months, it would have been a disaster. OP’s assessment that Jane is “fiscally irresponsible” stinks of privilege. I do hope OP reads these comments and takes what is being said to heart.

          1. LizM*

            Exactly. When I started my first job out of college, I had to pay to move myself cross-country. Some of it came from savings from my part time job I had during school, some came from wedding gifts (we got married 2 weeks before we moved), some came from a loan from my parents, and some got put on a credit card.

            My car got hit in the parking lot of my new apartment 1 day before my first paycheck, and the person who hit me didn’t leave a note. It did enough damage that I couldn’t safely drive it. Had my paycheck not come through, and had I not lived somewhere where public transportation was an (albeit non-ideal) option, I’m not sure what I would have done at that point.

          2. Kella*

            I have heard of similarly wealthy people losing their job due to health issues and they spend ALL their savings within a few years because of medical bills. It really can happen to anyone.

            1. BelleMorte*

              For sure, I had a friend who had a great job in the mid-six figures, ample retirement and emergency fund savings, a house etc. Her husband announced at the start of month 1 he fell in love with someone else and is filing for divorce and expected alimony from her as she was the breadwinner and he was the stay at home dad, Month 2 she was laid off from her job due to the company being sold and everything downsized, two weeks later while doing a routine check with whatever was left of her health care before it was cut, she was diagnosed with an aggressive cancer.

              By the end of the year, she had no job (no one is going to hire someone actively fighting cancer), her retirement savings were halved with her ex, her house was sold and halved, she needed to pay child support as it was based on her pre-firing income due to the filing date (she later contested and changed it), she was dealing with legal fees, and she had literal millions in medical bills that she couldn’t get health coverage for as all the companies argued it was pre-existing. She went from a net worth of several million dollars to -several million dollars in the span of a year. It was insane.

              1. Candi*

                That he “expected alimony” when he’s running off with someone else rubs me really, really the wrong way. The point of alimony was to support someone when they needed it -often due to patriarchal rules restricting when and how (respectable) women could get jobs and whether they should still be the primary child raiser. (Almost always yes.)

                That he’s demanding alimony while intending to be with someone else, possibly moving in with them? It’s grating. Plus I don’t see anything in that text that makes him less employable than a woman who’s taken an equal length of time out to raise kids -with embedded societal biases, it’ll probably be easier for him to return to the work world.

      2. General von Klinkerhoffen*

        It’s also perfectly reasonable to use up your buffer when you’re job hunting. If Jane had been working for LW for a year, say, then you’d know she had income right up until the mistake. But we have no idea how long Jane had been waiting for that paycheck.

        2. Butterfly Counter*

          Or even moving, if that might have been something she had to do for this job. My SO and I pretty well drained the cushion I had made while working as a temp while he had been finishing school and looking for a job full time when we had to move across the country. Right up until his first (very nice) paycheck cleared, I was biting my nails watching our savings account.

        3. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

          Agreed. My experience of being jobless from 2018-2020 (lots of medical stuff went seriously wrong and pandemic made it worse) meant that I now have no safety net. At all.

          Any spare money left over from my current salary is going to paying back to debts I incurred during that time (and my credit rating is in the toilet)

          1. TiffIf*

            I know that position all too well. For a number of years I was trying to work and go to school and pay my medical bills (this was pre-ACA and so I couldn’t get health insurance for my pre-existing conditions); I racked up a ton of credit card debt. I moved a few years ago and was throwing out old paperwork and came across a bunch of overdue billing notices (the bills had long sense been paid I just found the old paperwork) and just seeing them, even knowing I am in a much healthier position financially, it just brought back all the old anxiety.

            Objectively, I have now built up a good safety net–but always in the back of my mind is that looming horrible anxiety.

            I hope your situation continues to improve. I know its so hard sometimes.

      3. Sandi*

        That was my first thought too. How is Jane supposed to have at least 3 months (her first paycheck would be after 3 months, assuming they don’t mess it up again) when entry level positions are targeted to people who have just started to work and haven’t had an income to save? I have been lucky and could easily go a few months without pay if I were laid off, but I was living on the edge at first!

        2. Iron Chef Boyardee*

          “entry level positions are targeted to people who have just started to work”

          One would find that hard to believe given the minimum qualifications required for some entry level jobs.

          (Sorry for the sidetrack.)

          1. Candi*

            I blame part of that on employers getting spoiled for choice during the Recession, and then they never dropped the habit.

            Covid’s kicked the pendulum in the other direction with a vengeance.

      4. Oxford Comma*

        I have a 6 month emergency fund, but 2 months without pay would put me at hardship too.

        Plus the little fact that Jane worked for TWO MONTHS without being compensated.

          1. Butterfly Counter*

            It looks like it’s monthly pay periods because the Jane has been working there 2 months and hasn’t been paid.

            1. bookworm*

              Monthly pay periods are already stressful from an employee budgeting standpoint at a new job, and not getting paid for two months is absolutely atrocious (any amount of missed pay is, but TWO MONTHS!?!). Even making a comfortable salary and some savings it stressed me out to see my bank account dwindle over the month, knowing rent was due before my next paycheck would get deposited.

              1. LC*

                Seriously. This is a perfect example of how awful monthly pay schedules can be. Even if everything goes as planned, it just doesn’t sit well with me that people are expected to work a full month before they’re paid. And like you said, it is a nightmare for employees to budget. I don’t even like biweekly or twice monthly, but even that is way better than monthly.

        2. LC*

          Omg it took me until literally right now to realize that they didn’t just miss paying Jane for the contract/assignment time, but her entire. damn. paycheck. I was 10000% on Jane’s side already, even when I thought it was maybe “just” a couple hundred dollars. But her entire paycheck. Twice. No pay at all for over two months. I just….

          OP is absolutely right that someone in this situation is disrespectful and overconfident and out of line, with an approach that’s completely uncalled for. I am also speechless at how this person handled this. I would also be uncomfortable having this person on my team. I just think that OP is the only confused about who this person is though. (Hint, it’s not Jane.)

          On another note – Go Jane! Holy cow, I am so impressed at how she handled this. Gracious but firm, direct and honest. Advocating for herself to get what is morally and legally owed to her. Going to Payroll directly at first, then escalating appropriately.

          I think if I were in that situation, even if I took the same steps, which I hope I would, I probably would have been a lot more sheepish and apologetic (“I’m sorry for the trouble, I don’t mean to bother, but I didn’t get paid again, it’s totally fine! But can I get paid soon? No worries if it takes more time!” etc etc etc), which I am not proud of.

          I’m actually thrilled OP wrote in and shared this story of how incredibly Jane dealt with this shitty situation. This is genuinely an inspiring story to me. That sound you hear, Jane? That’s just me over here loudly applauding you.

          1. Presea*

            I’m sure you know this LC, but for the sake of OP’s perspective and the perspective of anyone who might agree with OP – there is no “just” about a couple hundred dollars to the majority of US workers.

      5. Darsynia*

        While this is true, the pandemic has at this point likely wiped out most people’s savings in that regard. Particularly people who have needed to seek new jobs, like Jane.

      6. Magenta Sky*

        Even if Jane has enough money in the bank to retire on, screwing up a paycheck is illegal, and a *big* deal. Blowing it off as “not being respectful” is a bigger deal.

        1. Willis*

          This! It doesn’t matter if Jane’s a millionaire or not, the company has to pay her and she has every reason to advocate strongly for herself when they don’t. She’s not running a charity where the OP’s company gets to mooch off her savings. It would be fiscally irresponsible NOT to advocate for herself, her paycheck, and whatever other funding may be available to right to the wrong of 3 pay errors (which likely is more than $500 if she made a legal claim rather than accepting some gift card).

      7. Xena*

        I would be furious if I had to dip into my emergency savings, not because of an actual emergency, but of paperwork errors. Twice.

        I hope Jane does decide to file a complaint with Labor.

      8. learnedthehardway*

        And – if Jane is a junior employee, had an income issue at all in the past year or two (which a lot of people have had with COVID), etc. etc. – she may very well not have had an opportunity to put together that 3-6 months of savings!

        And in any case, that 3-6 mo of savings is supposed to be an emergency fund – NOT a “my employer has screwed up my payroll” fund.

      9. NotThatLucinda*

        It’s definitely common wisdom to have three months of savings, but as others have pointed out, it’s really no business of her employer whether Jane does or not.

        And I should say, it’s extremely common not to have three months of living expenses saved, especially among those in entry level jobs. Even for people from financially secure backgrounds, it’s really common not to have that buffer. I’m in my first job out of grad school – and I skipped a rung, it’s not entry level, it pays well, and I’m relatively frugal, but I don’t have those savings.

        1. Midwestern Scientist*

          And even if you do, there may be a fee/loss of interest for pulling money out of those savings. My grandparents bought me savings bonds for Christmas/birthday as a kid which now account for most of my savings (I keep about one month in the bank but the rest as those bonds). I would lose out on quite a bit of future money if I had to cash those to cover for someone else’s mistake

        2. Elizabeth West*

          Agreed. At those wages, it’s very very hard to save anything, or even if you manage to put something in your bucket each paycheck, it takes AGES to build up that kind of cushion. One thing breaks, and it’s gone–*POOF*–and you have to start all over again.

          I can’t even with how many times I’ve had to start over.

      10. Worldwalker*

        Plus we don’t know how long it’s been *before* this job. Jane might have burned through that 3-6 months of emergency savings when her former company closed down due to the pandemic. It’s not impossible that she had a year’s worth saved and has had a year out of work.

      11. Darren*

        I have probably two years worth of expenses saved up, so I probably wouldn’t call it a hardship but I’d still be quite peeved that I’ve worked for two months and haven’t been paid. I’d be wondering if the company was intended on ever paying me, and like Jane on insisting that it be made right “today” or I wouldn’t be working again until it was (and in that case would be notifying the appropriate regulator to make sure I got paid plus that appropriate fines and penalties were levied).

        The buffer isn’t there to absorb a company not paying me what it’s owed, it’s there to deal with things like sudden unemployment (like having to look for a job that will actually pay me).

        I would have been tempted (but don’t know if I would have done it) to ask that the head of payroll that person that screwed up my pay twice get an appropriate talking to on the seriousness of getting these things right rather than merely thinking they are fixed. Which sounds like further than Jane actually went.

    3. MistOrMister*

      This was so weird to me. Why does OP think Jane is fiscally irresponsible…for not being able to pay her bills when she didn’t get paid?? Granted, even if Jane WAS fiscally irresponsible, she still would have every right to insist on being paid on time every single time. But what rock is OP living under to not realize that so, so many people don’t have enough cushion to be able to not get paid month after month and still pay their bills? My goodness!

      I have to wonder if OP just doesn’t actually really like Jane and this is coloring their perception. Regardless, if I was Jane I would hope OP would put me up for a transfer because no way would I want to work under someone who showed so little empathy over this sort of problem and blamed me for speaking up about it. Makes me wonder what kind of manager OP is over all….I would kind of assume not a very good one if you dont kowtow to them constantly. Wow.

      1. Pants*

        That part – the condescension regarding bill priorities – flat out offended me. I do not offend easily or often. I just….

        I’m trying to temper what I’d really like to say to and about OP but it’s really, really difficult.

        1. AnonInCanada*

          I could think of a lot of things to say to and about the OP.

          But I’d sound like Sam Kinison, Lenny Bruce and George Carlin (RIP to all three) all on stage at once doing a stand-up act that involves reciting their version of The Aristocrats.

      2. Mirily*

        Because OP is quite a bit older than Jane and has several decades of income to pad out her net worth so can’t identify with anything else.

        I’ve run into this a few times: bosses who are just unaware of how little entry-level (or mid-level even) actually is nowadays. At one point I had to literally tell a manager (while she was essentially saying we should all just be thankful to be getting such nice paychecks) that my salary didn’t cover all my bills. She was stunned — particularly because I was known for being FRUGAL. She used to wonder why my nails weren’t always done or my hair perfect. But if your entry into the workforce was during the 70s or 80s (or 90s), you didn’t have any student loan debt, you married early and had dual incomes coming in for the bulk of your life … I think it’s just hard for them to readjust to the world as is now. Which is … maybe why it’s time to not be managing people …

        1. Observer*

          Because OP is quite a bit older than Jane and has several decades of income to pad out her net worth so can’t identify with anything else.

          That’s pretty ageist. You don’t know how old either Jane or the OP are. There are also plenty of older people who ARE living paycheck to paycheck, or who don’t have tons of savings. And lots of people who don’t live paycheck to paycheck who totally understand how not getting paid for two months, especially going into a new job could create a major hardship.

          Which is a long way of saying that this has nothing to do with the OP’s age. It does have to to with that kind of person they are…

          1. Mona-Lisa Saperstein*

            I agree that it has more to do with the kind of person LW is than with LW’s age, but in Mirily’s defense, the LW closes the letter with a complaint about the “respect gap” with “younger staff” (ie, Jane). It’s clear that the LW is from an older age group. Mirily isn’t saying that older people don’t also struggle to pay bills, they’re just saying — based on the info given by the LW — that the LW has more work experience and are obviously detached from what it’s like to be a young entry-level employee.

            2. MarsJenkar*

              Not just Jane, potentially. The comment was delivered shortly after the line about the HR rep telling OP that Jane’s reaction was appropriate for the situation. This suggests that the OP may be older than even the HR rep, who has presumably been a part of the company for significantly longer than Jane.

          2. Em*

            Actually, LW basically says “kids these days are disrespectful”, indicating that they are likely at least 15 years older than Jane. So, while we don’t know exactly how old either of them are, we do know that there is a significant enough age difference that LW sees Jane’s actions as “young people have no respect for their elders”

            1. Observer*

              True. But that still doesn’t explain her attitude. There are plenty of people who are older and are not jerks, and plenty of younger people who have similar ridiculous attitudes about “respect” and deference to authority.

        2. Ms Afleet Alex*

          I had to explain to a well-off small business owner that I couldn’t continue in his industry because it paid too little and I needed to save for retirement. He said I was too young to worry about retirement. I was in my late 20s/early 30s at the time.

          1. MarsJenkar*

            My response to that would have been, “If I can’t start saving for retirement now, I’ll never be able *to* retire!”

        3. Blackcat*

          YUP.
          As a second year graduate student, I and a bunch of my labmates all went to a long conference that was $$$$. University policy was that we had to front the money for travel and then get reimbursed. Everyone was able to put airfare on their credit cards (which was lucky), but a bunch of people couldn’t pay for the hotel on top of that. And the university generally took 6-10 weeks to cut reimbursement checks, that you could *only* file for *after* the travel.

          Having had a professional job prior to grad school, I had both the credit limit and the ability to immediately pay for the hotel rooms for the lab group (3 rooms for 6 people for 7 nights adds up!). I got approval from the department admin that I could get reimbursed for rooms for other people. My advisor was SHOCKED while I filed for this FOUR THOUSAND DOLLAR reimbursement. I explained I had paid for a bunch of people because I was the only one who could afford it. He genuinely had no idea of the financial hardship of fronting those sorts of costs for young graduate students. He was just really clueless that asking us all to stay in the conference hotel meant that if I hadn’t paid, my labmates would have been choosing between going to the conference and eating or their rent.

          After that, he started paying for student travel on his credit card and getting reimbursed.

          1. fueled by coffee*

            The whole practice of making grad students operate on a reimbursement system for conference travel (and for us, research participant payments) is absurd.

            1. Candi*

              There’s discussions on this site on the practice of paying to do stuff for work and then work reimburses the person. Alison’s nicest comment on it calls it an interest-free loan to your work, and she’s very clear that unless the worker takes the option to be reimbursed, the company should be the one fronting all costs. (Some people like fronting costs due to goodies they get for using their credit cards.)

              A university forcing an interest-free loan on grad students is even more heinous in my eyes. If they want their degrees, they have a choice of going along with it and playing havoc with their finances., or losing out on the networking and career-boosting opportunities. Scylla and Charybdis decisions have no place in education or the work world.

          2. Rock Prof*

            I’ve taken undergraduates to conferences before, and I was given so much hassle that I paid for their rooms on my university card instead of them paying for it themselves and getting reimbursed. I think in one instance, things got bounced back to me so many times, i just ended up paying out of pocket.

        4. Janet*

          Not quite. I graduated with student loan debt in 1982, so did plenty of others. However, we had a subsidized interest rate and 10 years to pay it off. A few years later, that subsidized rate went away, so college students were paying a much higher rate.
          And the salaries now haven’t gone up as fast as the cost of living.

          I am continually amazed at other people my age who are totally clueless about the reality facing our new employees.

          1. Gumby*

            I’m not saying it’s not harder now than it was then, but anyone looking at college costs should still try for a subsidized loan! Subsidized student loans still exist, but you have to qualify to receive them, based on financial need, and the amounts that you can borrow are limited. (I wasn’t aware of subsidized interest rates on private loans, as opposed to the federal loans, when I was in school so maybe I missed out on that.)

            Also, check a school’s financial aid policies. Several schools have amazingly generous financial aid. My alma mater changed their policies about 5 years after I graduated such that, had I still been a student, I would have attended entirely tuition-free.

            1. Kate 2*

              I have a subsidized loan. I have a roommate and the loan payment is almost as much as my rent! Subsidized loans don’t really help much. It’s better than a private loan, but not that much better!

      3. KateM*

        And how was Jane supposed to know that she will not be paid? If you plan your finances you do take into account your paychecks, won’t you?

        1. Observer*

          Not according to the OP – According to the OP, junior employees don’t get to expect that they will get paud on time because they are “not in charge”.

        2. LRL*

          “I’m also uncomfortable because why is our company responsible for her fiscal irresponsibility? … I just don’t think it’s the company’s responsibility… to fix things for her if she overspent or didn’t prioritize her bills or save smartly.”

          In what universe is it fiscally irresponsible to assume you’ll be paid when planning out your spending?

            1. Worldwalker*

              +1

              Budgeting around your paycheck: fiscally responsible.
              Not paying said paycheck: fiscally irresponsible.

      4. Czhorat*

        If Jane didn’t need the income to pay her bills she probably wouldn’t be working there.

        There are few jobs that one does simply for the love of it; almost none of those involve working for a company with a payroll department. Jane is there for the check. So is OP. That’s what work is FOR

      5. Stop whining*

        There’s no “if,” Not a good manager if you don’t kowtow to them” = not a good manager period.

    4. KHB*

      And even if you DID have enough emergency savings to weather two months without a paycheck, that doesn’t in any way lessen your employer’s obligation to pay you in full and on time.

    5. hmmmmmmmmm*

      Yeah, especially since they sound like…the first paychecks, based on the mention of paying for interview work. The transition to a new job is always financially precarious, and going 2 full months without a paycheck would make anyone question why they hell they’re coming in to work if they’re not getting paid. In the context of a new job, Jane is right to bring up her expectation that she be paid on time in the future. This issue is her only experience re: the job and getting paid, so she probably has understandable concerns about the company’s stability and consistency, if they can work her for 2 full months without paying her, period, and her boss doesn’t see it as a serious issue.

    6. Pants*

      Remember the woman who owned the Red Flag Factory a while back? This reminds me of that letter.

      I feel like Jane should get a copy of this letter so that she can request a department transfer herself. Obviously, it would be better for Jane.

      This is just… whoa.

          2. Observer*

            I remember that one! Yes, red flags galore! At least the OP figured it out after everything blew up on her.

      2. MelonHelen*

        I didn’t know we were hereafter referring it to the Red Flag Factory, but I do know which letter you’re talking about. Very fitting.

        1. Gracely*

          I didn’t know we were calling it that either, but I instantly knew *exactly* which one they were talking about, so…

        2. Your Local Password Resetter*

          I was wondering if there was an actual company called the Red Flag Factory.
          It sounds kind of cool, if you ignore all the implications.

          2. Pants*

            I must credit Maria Bamford. If she didn’t say this exactly, she at least said something close enough that I just started calling that rollercoaster the Red Flag Factory. :-)

    7. President Porpoise*

      As a general rule, showing a bit more compassion for those around you never hurts. OP, please, sit down and think about what it was like for you when you were just starting out. Think about how you could have behaved then to improve your situation, and what you would have liked to see in your management. See if you can do some of those things for your team. They will be happier – and perform better – if you treat them well.

      1. Julia*

        I’ll bet LW’s response would be “when I was entry-level, I would never have dreamed of talking to one of my superiors this way! I knew my place.” That’s the problem with rigid hierarchy – people at the top think it’s fair because they had to pay their dues when they were at the bottom, so the unfair system becomes self-perpetuating.

        1. tangerineRose*

          And yet what should have the LW done in this case? Most of us can’t keep working for free. I have some savings now, but when I started out, I had college debts, a car payment, and debts incurred from living expenses. Also, the LW probably doesn’t know what Jane’s obligations are. What if she has parents, siblings, or dependents she needs to help?

    8. Single Noun*

      Exactly- and tbh, I have well over a year’s worth of emergency fund, and I still would quit over this. I like my job but I’m hardly going to do it for free.

      1. Meg*

        Right? When I was in this situation the words I used were something along the lines of “I enjoy working here, but if I’m not getting paid it’s not work, it’s a hobby, and I don’t need another one of those, I need a paycheck.”

    9. QuinleyThorne*

      I’ve had the misfortune of having a few managers in my past who thought like this, the whole “your generation is just entitled!” And it’s always meant to be dismissive of employee’s concerns, but is egregiously so in this specific instance. Like, yes, Jane is entitled, entitled to her paycheck. That’s kind of the foundation of this arrangement. Jane works, and you pay her, and do so on time. And your employer hasn’t held up their end of the bargain not once, but twice.

      More generally though, I’m amazed that anyone even remotely familiar with this column would send in a letter like this to begin with.

      1. Ace in the Hole*

        Yes, people talk about someone “acting entitled” as a character flaw… but it’s only wrong when you’re acting that way about something to which you are not actually entitled. A sense of entitlement would be bad if it were about something like, say, getting a corner desk or using the company car for personal errands.

        It is completely legitimate to act entitled about being paid on time because legally (and morally) she IS entitled to that!

        1. Dr Wizard, PhD*

          This is an incredibly important point.

          People do in fact have rights and entitlements, and there’s nothing wrong at all with insisting on them.

  5. ChemistryChick*

    Ooooof, OP. Please take Alison’s advice to heart. Jane was absolutely in the right here and she handled it as she should have.

    1. BethRA*

      I will go further and say Jane was actually merciful. Your company is lucky Jane didn’t file a wage complaint – because if I’m reading correctly, Jane didn’t get paid for a month or more.

    2. What's in a name?*

      I hope we get an update from OP about how they had a realization over this and will be so much better.

      1. Nowwhat465*

        I am hoping from an update from Jane, letting us know she has switched departments after figuring out how her supervisor REALLY feels about her.

        1. RealPerson01*

          Could you imagine if you were a reader of this site and just happened on this article and realized it was about you? jeez, I don’t think i would even know how to react. I certainly wouldn’t be motivated to show up to work…

          I think I would just send my boss, their boss, and HR the link in one email with a ” This you?”

        2. Iron Chef Boyardee*

          “I am hoping from an update from Jane”

          Jane didn’t write the letter. Her supervisor, the one who felt Jane was in the wrong for expecting to be paid on time, did. And the way everybody’s been coming down on the supervisor (and deservedly so), I doubt we’ll get any kind of an update.

          Of course, it’s always possible that Jane will realize that we’re all talking about her (assuming she reads AAM) and share with us her side of the story.

          2. Aerin*

            Jane’s response was so good, especially for an entry-level employee, that I wouldn’t be remotely surprised if she were a regular AAM reader. (Not gonna lie, I’m this deep in the comments hoping there’s been an update.)

      2. TrackingCookieMonster*

        There’s 3 likely scenarios for the update:

        1) We hear nothing, because OP couldn’t handle the slice of humble pie. (The disappointing Sopranos ending)
        2) The update where OP reads the response and comments, realizes they were in the wrong, and makes effort to be better (The warm and fuzzy ending)
        3) The update where OP didn’t follow the advice and/or didn’t read it until after they doubled-down and escalated their wrongness to the detriment of themselves and possibly the company as well (The schadenfreude ending)

        1. AnonInCanada*

          You mean like that letter writer who doubled down on why Leap Year employee didn’t deserve her birthday off and the gift card when February 29th wasn’t on the calendar that year?

          Actually, I hope this OP writes back defending their smugness. Then we can all really let ’em have it!

            1. Gingerblue*

              Possibly the most orthagonal-to-reality letter I’ve ever seen here. Not the worst, just the most wtf.

    3. TrackingCookieMonster*

      I will agree with the letter writer on one thing: Jane absolutely would be better suited in a different department.

      Just not for the reasons they think.

    1. Princess Flying Hedgehog*

      This line made me laugh so hard! But seriously, there’s so much out-of-touchness that you can’t confine it to just Tuesday ….

    2. I'm that guy*

      I wonder if the OP has ever read AAM because if he did he would have never written this letter. (And while the OP could be a woman it just sounds like it was written by an out of touch middle-aged man from the 20th century)

          1. Snitches get Britches*

            I did too, and I think it was the britches comment. That’s a phrase I’ve only ever heard from my dear departed grandmother and my sainted but thankfully not departed mother. Am I off assuming it’s a gendered kind of saying? Entirely possible but that’s how I read it.

            1. Mona-Lisa Saperstein*

              LOL on your username. And yes! I use this phrase all the time, and it’s common where I am (the Southeastern US). I think I’ve only ever heard it used by other women, now that you mention it.

              1. COHikerGirl*

                My dad also used to say this! For this letter, I pictured a woman, though (I don’t know if I’ve ever heard a woman say this…it’s not a common phrase in my non-Southern state). It kind of read, to me, as the older woman who had to say nothing because that was the culture back when she was hired trying to put that onto the current generation.

            4. gemliza*

              Not defending the OP at all, but I’m from the Appalachian mountains in NC where breeches is commonly used instead of “pants”. Its a colloquialism left over from the brits that’s never died out there.

              1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

                Whereas in the UK we’d say “too big for [her] boots” rather than britches.

            5. Ace in the Hole*

              It’s regional. The phrase is much more common in certain parts of the US. I (30 years old) have used it myself, although never about a coworker in a situation like this!

              I also think LW is using it wrong… the implication is someone who’s full of themself, overconfident, and thinks they’re more important than they are. For example someone going on a power trip acting like they have authority because they’ve been put in charge of coffee runs for the book club. Or a little kid bossing their younger siblings around about things that are really Mom and Dad’s place to say.

              1. Freelance Everything*

                Well that’s exactly what LW thinks of Jane in this situation so he’s using it right.
                He’s just wrong about Jane.

        2. Jo March*

          I’ve never heard a man use too big for one’s britches. That was always the older women in my family, so I immediately pictured a little old lady.

        4. Urban Fervor*

          I’ve found that I *always* assume the letter writer is female. I realized that I subconsciously think that only women write in for advice in general. It’s my good ol’ internalized misogyny at work.

      2. WomEngineer*

        I also thought this was a male narrator when they described the coworker as bossy when it seems like she’s just advocating for herself. I wonder if they’d feel the same if a male coworker did this.

        2. SpaceySteph*

          It’s true that women are more likely to be described as “bossy” when standing up for themselves while a man would get more favorable adjectives, but this is true whether the describer is a man or a woman.

          That said I also pictured a woman, but that may be because it’s how we usually do on AAM.

      3. Ata*

        I had this same thought about whether OP had ever read AAM! It doesn’t seem like they would be interested in Allison’s opinion or like they had any idea how Allison advises.

        1. lol*

          Based on the last sentence, seems like LW was hoping for semi-legal advice? A person above mentioned that Jane was possibly BIPOC, and if so it makes sense that LW doesn’t want to be accused of discrimination (but notable that no skin color was mentioned at all, since that’s how some racists operate).

      4. Rusty Shackelford*

        It’s one of those that makes you think “This is fake, right? Jane wrote this herself and she’s going to leave a copy on her manager’s desk, right? Because people just don’t own themselves like this.” And yet they do.

          1. Bazinga*

            There’s nothing to say that hasn’t been said. I want to post the “flames on the side of my face” gif.
            Did the OP ever comment? I can’t imagine they would have, but you never know.

        2. Stormfly*

          Yes, this is probably the letter I’ve seen here that appears most likely to be fake to me. The LW seems un-self-aware to a cartoonish level. And the way that a female junior employee’s justified directness is regarded as being over-confident seems tailored to getting a reaction out of Alison.

          Of course, it’s possible it’s not. Truth can be stranger than fiction. There was another one sent in by a legal secretary about her bosses that I thought sounded over the top and fake, but there were a ton of comments talking about how they’d had similar experiences in that industry.

          1. SeluciaMD*

            This seems entirely too plausible to me. I’ve definitely worked for bosses who thought that we lowly employees should be “grateful” for our jobs like they were so much largesse and that there were exactly ZERO instances where standing up for ourselves with anyone higher up the food chain was warranted or remotely acceptable.

        3. Starbuck*

          Oh, they absolutely do! I’m first thinking of Brian Wansink, who accidentally/unknowingly admitted to blatant scientific research fraud in his very own blog post. I just listed to a whole podcast episode about it, and it’s WILD. He basically bragged about it!

            1. Starbuck*

              Yes, I’ve been going through all the episodes lately and oh boy, what a trip! I am learning a lot too. I even went back and read the archived blog post that the researcher wrote, and all the comments and his replies… it’s a trainwreck

              1. i will do it anon*

                He’s not leaving Maintenance Phase, just You’re Wrong About :) and that podcast is continuing too with guest hosts! As far as I know Maintenance Phase is continuing with Michael and Aubrey

        4. Lizy*

          Nah… honestly, it reminded me of my mom. Which, to be clear, my mother is very generous and helpful just… very out-of-touch. I wouldn’t expect my mom to be THIS out-of-touch, but it honestly would not surprise me at all if she landed more on “yeah Jane shouldn’t have threatened the company like that!”

        5. Stopgap*

          I think the over-the-topness makes it more likely to be real. Someone writing a fake letter would have enough sense to find the “too big for her britches” and such too excessive for their fake character. A real person who thought like this wouldn’t see that, because there’s no limit to how non-self-aware people can be.

      5. Koalafied*

        I read it as likely being a man too, mostly because the letter opened by describing the problem as “an employee who is overconfident” and I thought the story that followed would be about an employee’s inflated assessment of her own skills that was leading her to make errors or rub her coworkers or clients the wrong way. Instead, Jane was too confident that she deserved to be paid for her work. I feel like most women who had the same sort of problem with Jane’s attitude would call her “disrespectful,” but would be less likely to use “overconfident,” which is a term very frequently applied by men to women who don’t show deference.

      6. Colormebad*

        Yup. I was wondering about the age/gender/and race dynamics at play here. It just read so much to me like the stereotyping black women face about being disrespectful and bossy. Ugh all around.

        1. OhNo*

          I was wondering something similar. The talk about a “respect gap” just… really rubbed me the wrong way, and made me think there might be some other dynamics at play here, aside from just age and work experience.

        2. generic_username*

          Yeah, I pictured OP as a 50+ year old white woman and Jane as a 20-something WOC. Just the dog whistles about being “too big for her britches” and the “respect gap”, and the immediate jump to this being about Jane’s fiscal responsibility/poor spending habits.

    3. Professional Homosexual*

      Can “Out Of Touch Tuesday?” be a real thing, pretty please? My favorite letters are the ones where the OP is wildly delusional and Alison (kindly) slaps them back into reality.

  7. Katie Porter's Whiteboard.*

    LW lost me at “she’s got very big britches.” It’s terrible because managers like these are the reason many people are afraid to stand up for themselves. Thank goodness HR knew the company was in the wrong.

    1. kittycatcorn*

      EXACTLY! As soon as I saw that, I knew what would follow would be wildly over-wrought and breathtakingly of touch. I was not disappointed.

    2. LizB*

      Seriously, thank goodness for HR. OP, your HR department is the only department responding to Jane’s extremely valid and properly-expressed concerns responsibly here. Payroll was way too laissez-faire about correcting their error after that first missed check, and you are wildly off-base in your whole perspective.

      1. not a doctor*

        It’s a little wild to say “thank goodness for HR” when all they really did was fulfill their legal and ethical responsibility to Jane. I mean, given the alternative OP has shown us (and their extremely negligent payroll department), yes, thank goodness for HR in this instance, but… man, is that a low bar or what?

        1. LizB*

          Very true, but I guess I don’t know if I’ve ever had an HR department who would have given someone $500 in gift cards to help make them whole like this.

          1. Rodrigo*

            As someone pointed out above, they’re probably doing that so that Jane doesn’t file a complaint with the Department of Labor, which would be far, far more expensive (treble damages) to the company.

            2. Siege*

              So what? It’s still the right thing to do, and they could probably get away with it if she did file a complaint, given how high the dollar value of wage theft needs to be for a state DOL to pursue it. And it wasn’t theft in the sense that she NEVER got the money, either. They would totally have gotten away with it if it went to the DoL. Good for them for doing the work to make things THEY screwed up right.

              1. Candi*

                Depends on the DOL. Some states, they’d consider it settled. Other states…? Well, my state would be like “you didn’t give her the full amount of damages, did you“? (2x-3x pay and maybe some more.) Since the business did try to make it right, they’d probably get off with paying out the remainder of the 2x-3x and a warning.

        3. Observer*

          Thank goodness that they are basically competent. How many insane HR departments have we read about just on this site?

          It also sounds like the head of Payroll does get it. Hopefully there will be some significant consequences for the negligent payroll person, and some examination of how such a mistake could be allowed to go on for so long.

    3. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

      I’m a fat lady – I got *huge* britches! :p

      (And the temperament of an old battle axe)

              1. Pants*

                Of course. I’m an EA. I’ve always said Don’t piss off IT, reception, or admins. Rule 1. We can make your life utter hell. I think that counts.

                1. Candi*

                  As I’m learning in my IT class, IT could make a single “typo” and make life difficult, and you’d never be able to prove it wasn’t an accident.

        4. Selina Luna*

          I only wear pants occasionally (leggings and skirts or dresses most of the time), but I’m available for anything that requires someone with experience teaching teenagers.

      2. HereKittyKitty*

        If you’ve ever heard both “big for your britches” and “battle axe” you might be from the south XD

    4. Heidi*

      I also think that this is not the right way to use this phrase. If you’re “too big for your britches,” it means that your ego is larger than your capabilities. But if the britches are big, they can hold the bigger ego without a problem, right?

      In any case, the OP should not be blaming Jane for saying that she can’t work without pay. She also seems to be going one step further on the out-of-touch highway by blaming Jane for needing the money, which is why most people are employed. If anyone was fiscally irresponsible in this scenario, it was payroll. I’m also detecting a bit of resentment over how good Jane is at her job and wanting to take her down a peg (since we’re going with old-timey sayings). Not nice.

      HR actually handled this pretty well, which is a silver lining, I guess.

      1. Catty Wampus*

        In my family we would say someone has big britches if they were thinking about trying something overly ambitious. Like when a 16 year old cousin just started a minimum wage job and was talking about how many promotions and raises they were going to get and how they would be able to buy a brand new, high dollar sports car by the end of the summer. They had “big britches” (ambitions well above where they could reasonably expect to be in life) that they were planning on being able to fill quickly and we were saying we didn’t think they’d be able to fit those britches like they thought they could or in the time frame they thought they could.
        But to be fair I really only ever heard it called that in my family, so may have just been an “us” thing.

        1. Heidi*

          Thank you for this. It doesn’t seem like it’s just your family if the OP is using it that way also.

          It’s hilarious to me that there are two such phrases that involve britches. As if the seat of ambition is in one’s pants.

          2. Rebecca L Latham*

            If OP is using it that way makes me wonder if they are a little intimidated by Jane, worried she has ambitions to move up the ladder (possibly into OP’s job or one above them).

    5. BRR*

      The lw lost me when they described the situation and jane’s professional response. I don’t think it’s a dramatic response to say that the lw shouldn’t be managing others.

    6. Pants*

      I’m running a panel at work today about great managers and crap managers with a guest speaker who has written books about the subject. (One has a fantastic title I’d love to share but it would make it too easy to google.) I wish I could volun-tell OP to attend.

      1. Pants*

        Speaker just said a good manager has:

        –EMPATHY
        –Humility
        –Curiosity
        –Integrity
        –Coachability
        –EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE

        *cough*

    8. Just an autistic redhead*

      I mean, I thought we were going to then read about how Jane asserted that she should be the payroll manager or that she knew the system better than the existing employee or department… But then that wasn’t what had happened, so from my perspective I didn’t see where OP was getting the impression that Jane was overconfident. I could understand the reaction if (alternate reality) Jane had requested advance (future) pay and the company had not done it and then she said she couldn’t have it happen again, assuming she had been paid normally (i.e. in a legally compliant manner). I can only imagine Jane’s fear and uncertainty and huge effort to remain that professional after an incredibly vital ball was not just dropped, but fell into a rabbit hole like that. Not having your (actual received) money line up with your financial obligations is incredibly scary.

    9. Jack Bruce*

      Yes! This reminds me of something my old boss would have said! One of the first red flags I had from her was when she described my report as “needing to put on her big girl panties.” It was all downhill from there.

    10. First time listener, long time caller*

      Until the payroll employee who failed to pay Jane EVEN AFTER AN EMAIL EXCHANGE CORRECTING EVERYTHING gets on a PIP or fired, the company is not handling this correctly. This is gross incompetence (at best) at a core job function in a critical job.

      1. Fran Fine*

        Sadly, I agree. That payroll employee is astoundingly incompetent. Their manager should have been looped in from the very beginning and a live check should have been cut the very first time this happened.

  8. Ana Gram*

    I think Jane handled this beautifully and her response was exactly what I imagine AAM telling her to do if she wrote in.

      1. Anonym*

        I think it’s worth noting that Jane’s approach was extremely respectful in that she informed them that they were at risk of losing her over the situation. I would want to know any time a strong employee was considering quitting over a solvable issue!

        1. Jenny D*

          I *have* quit over a similar issue. Like Jane, I got overdraft charges because I didn’t get my full pay. Unlike the company in this story, my employer didn’t fix it until I’d asked several times, and they didn’t pay for my extra bank charges due to their negligence.

          At the time, I was employed by a temp agency, and the client was very happy with me. I called a few other big agencies in the area and ended up getting employed by one of them, taking the contract with me. During the following 4-5 months, about 75 % of the temps followed me to the new agency…

    5. ecnaseener*

      I thought the same thing! Ballsy move by LW, complaining about a damn-near perfect script that’s probably exactly what Alison would’ve recommended. Maybe LW hasn’t read the site.

    7. Not That Kind of Lawyer*

      Agreed. I am hoping Jane reads AAM and will recognize this letter. If so…”Hey, Jane!! Stay in your power!!”

  9. Canucklehead*

    I can empathize with Jane and I am glad for her that payroll saw how serious this was. My own situation (for anyone who isn’t Canadian search Phoenix pay system failure) took more than a year to get fixed and me and so many of my colleagues suffered and are still affected.

    Your answer here was spot on Alison. I know the rules here so all I will say is that this person needs to do a serious rethink.

      1. Captain of the No Fun Department*

        It was the Canadian federal government, one of the largest employers in the country. Working for the federal government are typically pretty well paid kushy jobs with an awesome pension plan. It would be rare that someone would quit over this.

        1. Observer*

          I know that it was the government. But “this” was not some minor snafu. People not getting paid for months (which was not rare with that whole mess) is a REALLY big deal even for a “cushy” job.

    4. Portmanteau*

      My sympathies to you, fellow Phoenix-friend!

      I was not paid for two paycheques (which is actually not as bad as some), and when I finally got to talk to a real payroll person to request emergency funds, they said, “Well, you’re getting paid next cycle. Do you still need emergency funding?”. Well, yes, yes indeed I still needed it, especially since I was only getting into the system to get paid and they weren’t going to include my missing pay!

      1. Candi*

        “they weren’t going to include my missing pay!”

        …I’m pretty sure Canada has laws about that.

        1. Sleepy unicorn*

          It was the Canadian Federal government itself that wasn’t paying it’s employees due to the Phoenix system failure. It was bad.

    5. Shergak*

      Ah, good old phoenix. A system that created so many ashes, and devastation. I still have issues they have yet to resolve.

    7. Lenora Rose*

      I could NOT believe that they let it just keep going… and going… my sister-in-law AND brother-in-law are civil servants and she was one of the lucky ones who got it straightened out relatively fast. (I seem to recall he had more issues but not the details). And thankfully they had savings, but you shouldn’t need to have savings because your pay gets that messed up. Especially if you work for the freaking government.

      1. Vancouver*

        A good friend of mine was managing a local department in one of the bigger federal agencies when Phoenix launched. It was about three managers under her and each had about ten staff when the ramped up for the summer (lots of student workers). Pretty much the only thing she did from April to November was sort out payroll issues for 30 people. Her staff were able to get paid every pay period thanks to her persistence, but she said it was the wrong amount about half the time… I know there were many departments who’s managers had less time or were less successful, and many people had to sort it out themselves. It was/still is insane.

    9. Ramm*

      I mean, for what I can see, you know nothing about leadership and understanding other people problems, problems caused by the company you attend… if you see her attitude rude is maybe because no one wants to work for free and they have the right to inquire about it!

    2. 3DogNight*

      I agree with this so hard! I’m coming in late, but man am I glad that guy is not my boss! (I’m assuming man, could be wrong). What a nightmare!
      I would LOVE to work with Jane. That kind of direct communication is very hard to come by, and it makes work so easy.

    3. Anonymouse*

      I know, right?

      Like OP if your company skipped your next 3 pay cheques and you suddenly had trouble paying things (mortgage / rent, car or other loan repayments, utilities, food, fuel etc)

      Would it be because you’re bad at saving? Have spent too much? Or would it be because your income has failed to come in as expected?

  11. hiptobesquared*

    So this is the one you referenced in the tweet yesterday. YIKES.

    LW also lost me at the word “britches.”

    1. Old Cynic*

      I saw the tweet yesterday, too, and just couldn’t wait to read this post. I was not disappointed!!

      1. SeluciaMD*

        Same here. And it was just as infuriating as Alison said it would be. What is wrong with people?!?

    2. CM*

      Yes, calling people “uppity” or “too big for their britches” is a very clear signal that you think they need to be put in their place. And if you think people have a place that they need to be put in, instead of legitimately having their own wants and needs as human beings, that’s a problem.

      1. Observer*

        You know, this makes me wonder at whether Jane is Black and the OP is White? Because “uppity” seems to be a word that gets applied to Black people who are “over-reaching” (ie just being ambitious or assertive in ways we applaud in white males).

        1. Zillah*

          Fwiw, I don’t think the OP used the word “uppity,” but I also wonder about possible racial dynamics here based on the overall tone.

          1. Observer*

            No, they didn’t but it’s VERY much the vibe of the letter. They use a derogatory comment used for children, they reference Jane’s “superiors”, and complain that she doesn’t “understand” that she’s “not in charge”.

            That’s why so many people pulled up the word. It fits how the OP is talking.

        2. cassielfsw*

          If that is the case, it would also make it *extra* shitty that LW apparently expects Jane to be OK with being made to work for free. Y’know, I think there might be another word for that… It’s on the top of my tongue…

    3. Heidi*

      This letter might become AAM lore, like liver boss, Leap Day birthday employee, and cheap-ass rolls. It will be the big britches boss.

      1. Nom*

        i wasn’t aware of cheap ass rolls thank you for sharing. Leap day birthday will always be my favorite.

        1. Heidi*

          My pleasure. Cheap-ass rolls seems to be less well-known than some of the other famous posts, but it’s such a gem.

    4. HereKittyKitty*

      “britches” was a word my grandma always used for “pants” when I was young. “Big for britches” is something I heard occasionally growing up from my parents who are now in their 60s. Definitely an older southern thing (interested in other regions that say it too!) but reading it definitely made me feel like I time traveled this morning XD

  12. Que Syrah Syrah*

    Oh my goodness, the entire time reading this I kept saying to myself “….oh no, OP is about to be served a truth bomb that he/she is NOT AT ALL EXPECTING.” I was CRINGING.

    Perfect response. OP, there’s a lot of entitlement and poor behavior here, but as Alison said, it’s from you, not you report. Please learn from this and rethink your stance/ideology, or you’re going to lose good people.

    1. Rayray*

      These are some of my favorites to read, when managers are just SO sure they’re right and that their subordinate is disrespectful and horrible but then they get put in their place.

      Still, nothing will ever beat the manager that refused to give the employee a day off for her graduation ceremony and they were so sure they were right.

      1. LKW*

        That recently made the rounds again on Reddit under the Anti-work subreddit… four years on and people are still (rightly) outraged.

        1. Van Wilder*

          Yeah that was a good one. But at least the employee quit.

          The one who wouldn’t give the leap day birthday person a day off still makes me the most angry.

          1. A Wall*

            I wonder about the leap day birthday weirdo all the time. Like, with the power of hindsight, do they have any new thoughts now that it’s been years, or did they dig in so hard on this that they will never emerge?

      2. Coder von Frankenstein*

        I still dream that one day the graduating employee will run across that letter on AAM and write in about it.

      3. Observer*

        Actually, the manager wouldn’t give her *2 HOURS* – and it was 2 hours of *reduced mandatory overtime*

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      Still hoping Alison adds a category for these… “truth bombs” or “this is not going to be the answer you expect.”

  13. Busyness of Ferrets*

    OP, you need to stop seeing her an an issue and start realizing you’ve got a fire-cracker on your team with confidence.

    That’s a good thing.

    Be respectful to her. She advocates for herself and there’s not a thing wrong with that.

    2. President Porpoise*

      A different viewpoint…

      Perhaps Jane should be transferred to a different department. I worry that OP will double down on this, frankly, bananacakes superiority complex thing she’s got going. I don’t want Jane’s self confidence and personal advocacy to be crushed, or for her to face potentially long term unreasonable resentment and the million tiny ways that can make her long term work life miserable.

      1. El l*

        Honestly, I’m deeply impressed with Jane. She communicated clearly, honestly, and with full regard for the stakes. For an entry level employee, that’s fantastic. I think she’s got great things ahead of her.

        It’s better for everyone that this manager has nothing to do with Jane. OP doesn’t deserve someone of Jane’s caliber.

        1. Rodrigo*

          OP should be transferred to unemployment benefits, especially if she’s hinking about retaliation or complaining about Jane not filing a very justified legal complaint. She’s not only a poor manager –at this point and with this attitude, she might be turning into a legal liability.

      3. Observer*

        I worry that OP will double down on this, frankly, bananacakes superiority complex thing she’s got going.

        Unfortunately, you are making a good point here.

      4. Elenna*

        I’d suggest that rather than transferring Jane (possibly to a job that she enjoys less/is less good at), they should instead transfer OP to the department of People Who Should Never Manage Anyone, Ever. Maybe even to the department of People Who No Longer Work At This Company. Get Jane a decent manager, please!

      5. Pobody’s Nerfect*

        Different and likely correct. The last time I told my Managers I was going to advocate for myself and stood up for my strengths, I was shot down and they doubled down on their negative opinions of me because they couldn’t handle a strong lower position employee being assertive, they wrongly interpreted it as aggressive and overconfident so that they could keep me shuttled into their narrow old fashioned viewpoint of what a peon should be and act like.

    3. JustaTech*

      Exactly! Jane did everything right here. She took the initiative to get the payroll thing fixed promptly, then looped in her boss when it wasn’t getting fixed, was polite but firm about the company’s responsibilities regarding pay.

      That’s exactly the kind of person I’d want on my team: someone who stands their ground on what is right in a calm, respectful and factual way. Why would you want a total pushover on your team, unless you like pushing people around?

      1. Threeve*

        That’s where my thoughts went too. Her work is great and she’s easy to train, but it’s almost as if that makes her insufficient bootlicking even more offensive.

    5. Jamboree*

      Yes! OP’s actual question was, “She’s great and needed very little training but how fast can I get her off my team?”

  14. Legal Rugby*

    Holy… OP – you are making an entry level mistake – respect doesn’t mean bowing before the person with authority and never saying anything that upsets them. More than that, Jane doesn’t even come across as aggressive or angry in your own comments. Why do you assume that someone else asking for pay for work they did somehow reflects badly on them?

    1. Pierre*

      Missing paycheck twice is actually the lack of respect here. Being paid is not a privilege, it’s the reason we work.

      Employment is a trade. you give them my time & skills, in return they give you money.

      1. Yellow Rose*

        Exactly this! As a former payroll professional my screen saver was a scrolling text that read “Payroll is Why People Come to Work!”

        The company handled this very appropriately with the immediate check and an emergency allowance.

        Thank goodness OP isn’t in charge of payroll at that company.

    2. Generic Name*

      Exactly. I’m agog at this letter, and by the end my mouth was hanging open in shock. I’m a person who really appreciates traditional manners. Using “sir” and “ma’am”, men opening doors for women, children addressing adults with the titles Mr/Mrs/Ms/Mx, handwritten thank-you notes, etc. Call me old-fashioned. But respect and manners does not equate to groveling to your boss/employer. Your employee was very respectful, and HR handled everything correctly. You did not. Workers today (young and old) are Fed. Up. Back in the day when a boss might demand that type of groveling folks could expect to get a job out of college that they stayed in for 30 years. They could support a whole goddamn family on one person’s (okay, a man’s) income. They got good health insurance, and they could expect a pension upon retirement in 30 years. So yeah, maybe an entry-level person in that environment should have been very solicitous of their superiors. But now nobody’s job is secure, health insurance is unaffordable, employers no longer have pensions, raises are often nonexistent, and many folks cannot make ends meet with one full-time job (if they are lucky to find full time work, lots of folks cobble together 2 or 3 part time jobs). Plus, jobs these days are plentiful. There is nothing stopping your employee from going elsewhere. Are you actually expecting her to kiss your boot while she works for free?

      1. Le Sigh*

        Eh, I take your point but I still say entry-level didn’t need to be overly solicitous back in the day, even with everything you describe. Polite and professional, sure, but decent wages and benefits doesn’t mean people aren’t suddenly equals who lose their right to advocate for themselves and must be eternally grateful for fair compensation for their labor. In fact, they still did for many reasons, because that structure often came sexual harassment/racism/sexism/bigotry with far fewer options for recourse, among other issues — so there was plenty to push back on.

        But I do think your larger point is right — it is much harder to make ends meet and survive in this job market and it is wild of OP to think she should show fealty in this situation. In fact, the Janes of the workforce are pushing back and advocating for a reason, and good for them.

    3. LC*

      More than that, Jane doesn’t even come across as aggressive or angry in your own comments.

      This is an excellent point. It’s very common for people (even people not nearly so out of touch as OP) to paint themselves in the best light possible when telling a story like this. If Jane comes off this well in OP’s own version of events, I wonder how Jane or the payroll manager would tell it.

    4. Van Wilder*

      I’m getting tired of the respect gap I’m seeing with younger staff.

      LW, I think you laid out your problem in one sentence here. This doesn’t seem to be about Jane but more about your general frustration with what you perceive as a shift in workplace norms. Try not to take it out on Jane just for needing to be paid for her work.

      1. Yes!*

        I hate that LW made that comment! I’m a boomer and would be absolutely mortified if something like this happened to one of my employees — of any age. It sounds like Jane was completely professional in this situation.

    5. Ali*

      …respect doesn’t mean bowing before the person with authority and never saying anything that upsets them.

      Louder for everyone at my workplace, please. *sigh*

      1. Lexi Lynn*

        I don’t think that the OP realizes that this wasn’t a discussion between unequal people. This was a discussion between equals about an agreement. Jane agreed to work for money and you agreed to pay her for that work. The OP doesn’t have authority over that agreement.

    6. Anonymous Hippo*

      The idea that saying “if I’m not paid I won’t work here” being disrespectful is CRAZY. Honestly, it’s crazy it even had to be said. I wish there was a way Jane could see this, because I’d be job searching ASAP if this is how my boss felt about this.

  15. Stackson*

    I kept waiting to see where Jane had been disrespectful, and then I realized that she hadn’t. But OP, you are being incredibly disrespectful towards her. Respect flows both ways, and it has nothing to do with what rank someone holds in an organization or how old they are.

    2. I'm just here for the cats!*

      I thought the same thing. When I read the title I thought, Oh an employee blew up at the payroll person because of an error. But no. She is not wrong

      1. The Rural Juror*

        Exactly. It’s not like she stood up on top of the conference room table and showered the payroll person with insults. I mean…she probably wanted to…

    3. ..Kat..*

      I wonder if some of the OP feeling ‘disrespected’ is because Jane is female and women are not supposed to be direct.

    2. Perfectly Particular*

      Oh that sounds so harsh – to nominate a letter writer for the bad boss award!

      But also… wouldn’t you think that the LW would be a regular reader if they were writing to Allison? I feel like they should have had some idea where she would stand on this issue.

      1. Alldogsarepuppies*

        I believe, in fact, Alison has a rule against nominating letter writers because then these people that really need to hear the truth, won’t write in.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Yes! I also think a lot of LWs aren’t regular readers of the site — they’re googling for info on how to solve a problem, come across AAM, and send in a question.

          1. Lizy*

            How many LWs do you think ask others, on average? Do you think/feel that LWs find one site to write into, or choose many to get a wide variety of opinions?

            For me, I’d just write to AAM, but I’m the type that once I find something I like, I won’t deviate and everyone else just doesn’t know what they’re talking about HA!

  17. Goodbye Toby*

    Oh Lord. Just. Yes to everything Alison said.
    At old job, they missed 2 pays and I had just graduated so money was already tight. I brought it up the first time, not fixed, then again the second time. They said, can you just wait until the next pay period? I said, no I cannot go 6 weeks with no pay, can you? They paid me but they were clearly miffed about having to cut a check off schedule. Run Jane, run.

    1. NeonFireworks*

      Same with me. First job out of school, great offer from a major player in a competitive industry, didn’t get paid for 2 months, would have had to quit if it had happened again. Also didn’t have health insurance for a while either. Good times.

      1. Goodbye Toby*

        Did we work for the same place?! I was told not to take health insurance because it made me too expensive and looked like I was a difficult employee. Tf.

        1. Raine*

          Sounds like the kind of b.s. a lot of toxic workplaces try to feed to new/young/inexperienced employees.

          I’ve had one boss ask me if it was okay if they didn’t sign my timesheet that week, and I was temping, so I said, “No, if you don’t sign this, not only will I not be here next week, but I’ll tell my agency you refused to sign it so I can’t get paid and they’ll call you to ask you why.” Learned a hell of lot about standing up for myself, temping for five years.

    2. Pants*

      Jane also likely has student loans she needs to pay as well.

      The average American would not be able to come up with $400 to $1,000+ in an emergency.

      1. Candi*

        Especially with lockdown, covid, etc., pretty much flattening even hefty savings.

        Hopefully Jane is just out of school and was still in the six month grace period. (I don’t plan to start paying until that period is over or I have my first check in my bank account.)

    3. Just a Thought*

      I had an internship in University (for a Government department no less), where payroll made a data entry mistake and had my tax withholding at the highest level, instead of the lowest. In other words, Poof, there goes over half my paycheck. Payroll’s response was that I would get the money back as a tax refund so it did not really matter.
      They were a little miffed when I insisted that the matter be corrected immediately, and the fix be back dated because I could not afford to wait 10 months for my money (and the University would not wait that long for the tuition).

      1. Generic Name*

        “Why don’t you pay me out of your own pocked now, and I’ll pay you back when I get my refund. NBD, right?”

      3. Candi*

        I thought the “you’ll get it in your next check 7-30 days from now” comments were bad. That’s dismissive to another level.

    4. Lily Rowan*

      The day after a direct deposit doesn’t hit, someone should be cutting a manual check. That is outrageous!!

      1. SnappinTerrapin*

        A few jobs back, my direct deposit was messed up once. The employer was in another State, but my bank had a branch in that city.

        Before the day was out, a senior manager delivered cash to their local branch of my bank.

        The company suffered from a lot of dysfunction, but they at least demonstrated a modicum of common sense and decency in that particular situation.

      2. Selina Luna*

        I would still be pissed. I don’t have a physical version of my bank where I live, so I’m dependent on either mobile deposits or ATM deposits, and a manual check rather than a direct deposit would still mean at least 2 (and up to 5) additional days of waiting for a deposit to clear for me…

  18. Metadata minion*

    Wow, from the title I’d assume she’d yelled or sworn or something, which would be a reaction that I could sympathize with while still thinking it wasn’t ok to talk to Payroll that way. But no, it sounds like she stood up for herself admirably calmly and professionally.

    1. Littorally*

      Exactly.

      And — WTF at those payroll people!! Like, everyone’s human, mistakes get made, but they’ve repeatedly messed up a specific person’s pay, and given the power structures in place here, I’d be willing to bet Jane isn’t the first person who’s gotten stiffed on those contractor payments, just the first one to stand up for herself over it.

      1. Jill of All Trades*

        I used to work adjacent to payroll and managed a number of related calculations. I’ve been chewed out over mistakes less severe than this one.
        Payroll requires an intense attention to detail and extremely prompt resolution of problems whenever possible. Mistakes happen. This one was easily fixable and was not fixed right away.
        Good for Jane for calling it out.

        1. Lime green Pacer*

          +1
          Many years ago, I was a new payroll minion. I made less serious mistakes, and was absolutely mortified, and did not hesitate to go to my manager to get them fixed ASAP.

        2. Observer*

          Mistakes happen. This one was easily fixable and was not fixed right away.

          THIS. The first mistake. OK. But back and forth, “confirming” that the problem was fixed and then “Oops, I thought it was fixed”? That’s just jaw droppingly lackadaisical. If I were going to be expressing “discomfort” over any employee’s behavior, THAT is who I would be going after.

      2. BRR*

        Even in places I’ve worked where people in charge of payroll were idiots the one universal rule was don’t mess with peoples paychecks. Any mistakes in payroll were taken very seriously.

        1. More anon today*

          OldBoss was on the disaster planning team. He told me the order of priority in disaster recovery:
          1) Make sure people are physically safe;
          2) Make sure physical plant (buildings, etc.) is as safe as you can make it, e.g. not actually on fire;
          3) Restore that which is needed to process payroll.

          1. AVP*

            When Hurricane Sandy hit NYC, my company was using an outside payroll operator who required physical timecards which we would either messenger up to them at the end of the week or *maybe* email over and they would print them out onsite. Both our office and theirs were in the “no power” zone and I had *many* calls to their California office explaining that even if they had no access to their office, they still needed to process payroll!

            People were rightly freaking out about paying their rent which was due that week. They were like, we just don’t have access to the paperwork, sorry! Omg. Finally I convinced someone in CA to re-run the payroll from the week before and promised to sort out any OT inconsistencies when we were back in offices, but I couldn’t believe how long it took and how low a priority it was for them.

          2. Observer*

            Yes. The one and only time I have ever been given basically carte blanche to spend what I needed to was post Sandy to get our payroll processing back up and running. Everything else required SOME level of discussion (although I was given a pretty free hand).

      3. NerdyKris*

        That sounds like only one person in payroll was making the mistake, the payroll manager was immediately apologetic and understanding that this was unacceptable.

        1. Coder von Frankenstein*

          I mean… yes, but who trained that person? Who checks their work? What procedures are in place to ensure that one person’s mistakes do not leave another person without their paycheck (and the company on the hook for substantial damages)?

          It’s good that the payroll manager understands how significant this was, but it should never have gotten this far. Nowhere near this far. And that *is* the manager’s responsibility.

          2. NerdyKris*

            I was replying to yet another comment that didn’t seem to understand all the players in this story. Nobody is checking everyone’s work all the time, that would be absurd. The process would be to escalate it to their boss, and the employee did, and the manager immediately took responsibility and fixed it that day. I would also assume, given their reaction, that the employee in question was talked to and will be watched more closely.

            Where do you think the process failed? You can’t guarantee no employee will ever make a mistake or act irresponsibly.

            1. Coder von Frankenstein*

              Of course you can’t guarantee that no one will make mistakes. But you certainly can plan for it. When you’re dealing with critically important things, like people’s paychecks, you don’t just wait for stuff to go wrong and hope to clean it up after the fact–you take measures ahead of time to prevent it.

              Speaking as a software developer, the point where somebody gets entered into the payroll system is an obvious high risk for human error. It is also a relatively rare event–you don’t have onboardings every day or even every week. So it’s a no-brainer to put checks in place to ensure it’s done properly. Ideally, this would be an automated check where you can’t even set somebody up in the rest of the company’s IT systems unless they were set up in payroll. Failing that, requiring a review and signoff, say by the hiring manager, would at least mitigate the risk.

              That’s off the top of my head. I don’t work in payroll, so it’s possible they solve this problem a different way… but they *do* solve it at most places. I’ve never once had an employer miss a paycheck, no matter how dysfunctional they were in other ways, and I’m damn sure it wasn’t because no one in the payroll department ever screwed up.

        2. Observer*

          Yes. But something is still badly off.

          There are a number of issues here. For one thing, I’m trying to figure out how the OP could not have realized that their employee was not in the payroll system. So that says that something is off with the process here. Typically, supervisors need to sign off on their employees times sheets in some fashion, and those time sheets should be tied to the payroll system. So, that’s one issue that I’d be looking at.

          Secondly, the payroll person was epicaly careless here. Is this the first time this person has messed up this badly? Is this person new? (In which case someone should probably have been doing closer supervision.)

          Also, why is the policy not that the company cuts a paycheck manually the FIRST time someone’s paycheck gets missed? That would have also forced the issue as well and insured that there would not be a second time. Or is this the policy and the payroll person has either not been trained in the basics or is just soooo bad that you have to wonder how they are still employed?

          So, I’m seeing a number of possible areas where the company’s management needs to give a good hard look at what’s going on here.

          1. Recruited Recruiter*

            At a prior job, I was payroll adjacent, and my manager was also the payroll person’s manager. My manager did a payroll review, after which no changes were supposed to be made. The top things that my manager checked were: new employees, all timesheets approved by managers, and were all changes made that were supposed to have been. (400 employees) Payroll person started making changes after her review, and we had multiple people with severe pay issues, including one person severely overpaid that had to be paid back.
            Procedures and excessive access can cause huge problems.

              1. Fran Fine*

                Yeah, the procedures in this case were crystal clear, it’s just the new hire ignored them, lol.

                1. Candi*

                  There’s nothing about the payroll person who screwed up being a new hire. And they did screw up the minute they didn’t escalate to get Jane a check the first time.

                  It’s likely Jane followed proper escalation procedures within the company; she’d been there long enough to look them up. We can’t take OP’s word for what correct escalation is -she made her views abundantly clear on the idea of peons putting their foot down with their betters. And if Jane went around OP in this? I think it’s easy to say why.

          2. Cj*

            My first paycheck didn’t get direct deposited because I bank in a town quite far away from where I work, and their routing number was never entered in the payroll system. So even though the payroll person entered it correctly in my file, it didn’t go through. (Seems like a dumb way to program something, but whatever).

            I let them know, and they said they could cut me a check that day. They were able to get it direct deposited on Monday (payday was Friday), and I was fine with that, but at least they handled it well when I brought to their attention.

          3. Candi*

            My guess is the payroll person Jane originally dealt with would have had to go through channels to get a make-up check authorized, which would have been a “bother” and also documented the PP’s error. (More than it already was.) So they fixed it for whatever value of fixed, and made soothing noises at Jane.

            The cynical part of my brain popped up with that maybe they didn’t expect someone from OP’s Dept to stick up for themselves. /Snark

    2. Richard Hershberger*

      Yup. I was expecting someone who just wouldn’t let it go even after the mistake was fixed. No, it was someone who wouldn’t let it go until the mistake was fixed. This is an entirely different matter.

      1. Recruited Recruiter*

        This is what I was expecting as well. I once had an employee throw a fit over a rounding discrepancy of $0.01, who then wouldn’t let it go because I wouldn’t cut her a (at a cost of $0.80 ish) payroll check for that $0.01. Instead, I handed her a penny.

    3. BRR*

      I was also expecting from the title Jane maybe did something unprofessional and the answer would be more nuanced. This is so black and white of what is right and wrong though.

  19. Dust Bunny*

    Also: Respect is earned, not commanded. If your payroll department screws up a paycheck and a manager doesn’t jump in to support the wronged employee, neither of them has earned the respect the LW seems to think she’s owed just because she, what, got hired longer ago?

    3. zuzu*

      Jane’s ONLY experience with this company is that she works without being paid. Why shouldn’t she speak up and say she can’t work there any longer unless this is fixed? Why sink more time in if that’s the norm?

    4. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

      In my experience a lot of people mean ‘this person didn’t acknowledge that I am a superior human being’ when they say ‘didn’t show enough respect’.

      2. Brisvegan*

        I read somewhere that people operate with two meanings of respect:
        1. inferiors (for whatever value of inferior they assign) must show deference to superiors. or
        2. people treat other people with basic decency.

        The problem with OP’s attitude is that some people expect type 1 to be shown to them and won’t show type 2 to anyone who doesn’t show deference.

        (I read it in the context of bigots or arrogant people twisting “I will show them respect when they show me respect” to mean, the bigot/arrogant person might treat the other person with basic decency if they are sufficiently deferential to the bigot/arrogant person. It’s an excuse for treating perceived “inferiors” badly.)

    5. TooTiredToThink*

      I remember one year when I didn’t receive my paycheck right before Christmas. Thankfully I had gotten my end-of-year bonus (which was about the same amount of money) so I was ok, but you know what happened? My manager went to a senior VP and the VP *marched* down to HR and demanded them overnight a new check to me. *That’s* what a manager should do the second they find out that their employee didn’t get paid.

    6. SnappinTerrapin*

      It’s not even like she had been paid to show any respect to the arrogant entities who think they are buying her loyalty, obedience and humble subservience.

  20. Mat*

    Well now I need surgery to reattach my jaw which dropped until it fell completely off. I think I know one person who would be able to continue to pay all their bills without being paid properly not once but twice.

    Whatever the employee spends their salary on and however they manage their money is 100% not the employer’s business. Their only business is to make sure their employees are paid on time.

    Lordy.

    1. Jasper*

      I know plenty of those people, and am one of them, to the point where I used to be a little bit too cavalier about submitting my timesheets — more than once they ended up being way too late for that week’s pay run. But that’s *my* fault and responsibility, and I wouldn’t blame payroll for that, but them screwing it up after I did it right is not the same thing at all: *they*’re literally getting paid — assuming they don’t screw up their own payroll — to do that stuff right.

      1. LizM*

        I’m just going to jump in and say that our payroll bends over backwards to get people paid on time, even when it’s the employee’s fault because they didn’t get their hours in on time. I have a friend in payroll who will check her email at 9:00 the night that payroll is due to make sure that anything submitted late still gets in (technically the cut off is noon for the automated system but she can manually input until later in the evening).

    2. Elenna*

      I wouldn’t be able to pay them from my own savings, but I’d be able to borrow from my parents if needed. Even then, though, a) I’ve got the common sense to know that not everyone has that option and b) I’d still be raising hell to get my paycheck so that I could, y’know, pay them back. Not to mention that even if I was filthy rich and had billions saved, I’d still want my paycheck eventually because that’s literally the reason I go to work.

    1. CM*

      Except that HR handled it appropriately: apologized, offered Jane some compensation, made sure it got fixed right away, and emphasized to her manager that Jane was in the right and the company was wrong. Which is also a smart way to keep the company out of legal trouble because wage theft is a gigantic liability.

      1. Pants*

        Eh, not quite quickly. It should have been remedied after the first mistake. Jane should have been cut a check right then.

        1. I'm just here for the cats!*

          as soon as HR knew they appologized and gave her a check and the extra. I think the whole problem is on the one person in payroll who said it was fixed and it wasn’t, only to say they thought it was fixed. Why did they go to whoever and offer to write a check the first time Jane talked with them. And why didn’t they bring the issue up with their management so they could confirm the issue was fixed.

          If anyone is in the wrong (besides op) its the payroll clerk.

          1. Coder von Frankenstein*

            If the company has set up their system so that an employee can go unpaid, for multiple cycles, because one single clerk is bad at their job… that is a bigger issue than that one clerk.

            People make mistakes. That is part of employing people. When it’s important to get something right, you put in checks so that you aren’t depending on one person to be perfect all the time.

    2. NerdyKris*

      It sounds like only one person was acting like that, literally every other manager in the story was bending over backwards to apologize.

    3. Kazu*

      Based on my experience, it’s all too true. All my past horror work stories have happened with small employers. As awful as big corporations are, it’s much more comfortable on staff financially.

    5. Observer*

      Unlikely – most small employers don’t have HR, a payroll person AND “Head of Payroll” who is a different person.

        1. Candi*

          I get the feel of either:

          A business that is still sort of small in comparison to a corporation, but has grown large enough to need all the positions involved and makes enough money to have such a fund. Say, 500-1000 employees?

          or

          A smaller branch of a corporation, again at less than 1000 workers.

          Both are large enough for the resources mentioned, and small enough that there’s not a whole lot of local bureaucracy to wade through to get things fixed.

    6. Sarah*

      I had this same thing happen to me when I worked for a Fortune 100 company with 85,000 employees. Incompetence happens in all sizes.

  22. Exme*

    “I’m not comfortable having her on my team”

    I’m also not comfortable having her on your team. Or anyone.

    1. Legal Rugby*

      This. If Jane was aware of OPs objections, she’s probably looking elsewhere, now that she knows that her manager is more concerned with appearances than employees.

    2. Office Lobster DJ*

      Yeah, I think that’s one thing we can all agree on: Jane would be happier reporting to someone else.

    3. Librarian of SHIELD*

      This.

      LW, I’m not trying to be rude or mean, but I’m truly concerned about your ability to lead a team and provide them with the respect and support they deserve. Your complete lack of compassion here is a big, big red flag and I think you need to talk to someone about why you reacted this way to Jane’s incredibly reasonable and professional behavior.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Not only compassion, but awareness of employment law. Someone who thinks Jane should have just rolled with it is likely to think Jane should just roll with a lot of things.

        1. La Triviata*

          I wonder how patient OP would have been with a client who didn’t pay their bills … for two months. I assume the company could weather a brief lapse in payment, but would they?

          Many years ago, when I was young and living pretty much paycheck to paycheck, my bank suddenly started putting a hold on my paychecks (payroll was handled out of the company’s central financial office, which was in a different city). I bounced checks not realizing what had happened … it was bad.

          1. Heffalump*

            Some years ago, before the pub trivia scene fell victim to COVID, my team used La Triviata as a team name. Great minds think alike!

          2. Your Local Password Resetter*

            And clients not paying their bills is way less serious than missing payroll.
            Companies usually dont rely on a single bill being paid on the exact date it’s promised.

    4. EvilQueenRegina*

      Jane might well not feel comfortable being on OP’s team herself after that and I wouldn’t blame her!

      Seriously, OP is assuming “fiscal irresponsibility” on Jane’s part when a) I don’t see how she could know or justifiably assume that, b) even if she was that’s not any of OP’s business and c) the original error was through no fault on Jane’s part in the first place. Sorry OP, I’m Team Jane here.

    5. VivaL*

      Was coming to comment this! I HOPE the OP gives Jane up – Jane deserves so much better.

      Frankly, based on the attitude in this letter, Jane won’t be there very long anyway. So the OP doesn’t have to worry.

      1. Empress Matilda*

        Definitely. If OP is half this condescending in real life, Jane is going to be job hunting again pretty quickly.

        Also, to Jane – hi! I think you’re awesome, and I would totally hire you!

    7. Jamboree*

      Yes! OP’s actual question was, “She’s great and needed very little training but how fast can I get her off my team?”

    8. Sara without an H*

      This. OP, if you reported to me, this whole episode would give me serious doubts about your ability to manage people. Did it not occur to you that YOU should have been the one hounding Payroll until they acknowledged and corrected their error? If anybody had shorted any of my team, they would have heard from me loudly and often.

      Your insistence on deference at all costs will eventually leave you with a team of mediocre “yes creatures.” Hope the results are worth it to you.

    9. NotAnotherManager!*

      I was just coming here to say this – Jane needs a new boss stat, and OP should not be managing people with their current attitude.

      Our payroll, who is usually wonderful, screwed up my folks’ checks twice in a row (I guess at least they got paid something v. Jane who got stiffed entirely?), and you’d better believe they got the delta amount, an apology, an explanation of how it would never happen again, and a gift card for their troubles. You do not mess with people’s pay – that’s the entire reason they show up every day.

  23. Elle Woods*

    I’m gobsmacked anyone could think the employee has an attitude for insisting on being paid on time for the work she has completed. HR was dead on: it shouldn’t have happened at all. Good for Jane for sticking up for herself and making sure she got is rightfully hers.

    1. Gobsmacked*

      I wonder if OP is white and Jane isn’t. There is a common dynamic where “attitude” is perceived where there is none. Racism might also explain OP’s bizarre expectations of deference and “respect” from Jane.

      1. Aspiring Great Manager*

        THIS! I immediately wondered if Jane was perhaps a black woman, indigenous woman or another marginalised group that is supposed to “stay in their lane” and simply be grateful to have a job and that others “don’t look at them as black (or whatever)”. UGH

        1. Database Developer Dude*

          In this day and age, sadly, there is a better than 90% chance of Jane’s being black.

  24. Rayray*

    This was about Jane’s money. She is asking her labor to you for money so she can pay her bills and eat. She had to be firm because this kind of mistake is a huge deal. She probably feels screwed over, it’s a new company for her and this was a very bad impression.

  25. Rikerousness*

    I had a very similar situation with an online job I was working until quite recently, where I was contractually due to be paid on the 15th of every month. I didn’t get paid in August and spent the next couple of weeks dancing around with my employer, going to see my bank, waiting while they investigated, and finally had to tell them essentially what Jane told them up here. To their credit, they paid me immediately and were receptive. When I failed to get paid on time AGAIN in September, they once again suggested that i might wait but were entirely receptive when i said i couldn’t. I no longer work there and the pay snafus were a factor, but I appreciated that they didn’t accuse me of being ~disrespectful~ for pointing out that I needed the money I was due right away.

    My husband lost his job during the pandemic and was unemployed for eighteen months – I only took the job (it was my third concurrent job) to help keep a roof over our head. As of this morning actually, he is once again employed in his field and making more money with better (read: any) benefits! If this lady had been my manager, she’d have had me out on the street. To take this stance at any point is frankly inhuman, and to take it DURING THE PANDEMIC is callous on a scale I can’t conceive of. Unbelievable.

    1. SeluciaMD*

      Exactly! This is just bad on every level but it’s freaking EGREGIOUS during a pandemic that has seen even some otherwise very financially stable people fall into very hard times. I’m just baffled by her attitude.

      1. EmmaPoet*

        Exactly. Accusing Jane of being “too big for her britches”for the serious crime of wanting to get paid on time for the work she’s done is bad enough, but saying she must be financially irresponsible- during a pandemic- and blaming her for being concerned about the financial hardship the company caused is so far out of line that the line just fled and requested sanctuary in SanityLand.

        1. Candi*

          “that the line just fled and requested sanctuary in SanityLand.”

          I’m in the lobby of the building my next class is in, and the snort I gave at that got a funny look from the janitor.

  26. Jay Gobbo*

    Bravo, Alison… I would have LOST IT. Idk how you can reply so calmly to these people!!

    Also can we talk about this part?? ‘HR told me, “She’s right, it can’t happen again and it shouldn’t have happened at all.”’

    The letter writer actually put these words in their letter and STILL DOESN’T GET IT jfc. So at this point they’re not respecting their employee *or* their HR department. Y I K E S

      1. Lime green Pacer*

        Exactly. PR and HR are the experts here, OP should be taking note of what they did and following suit.

    2. Batty Twerp*

      We dont necessarily know how long this was sitting in Alison’s inbox waiting for her calm to come down to reasonable levels to enable her to write such a kind reply!

    3. Robyn*

      I always imagine Alison sitting at her computer, writing what she *really* wants to say in a Word doc and then deleting that and writing calmly.

  27. KateM*

    “I can’t keep working for your company if your company doesn’t pay me for my work” is… what now?

    1. Rayray*

      Apparently entitled and rude. And people like OP wonder why people are quitting their jobs in droves and refusing to work for places that treat them like this.

      It’s stuff like this why people are so fed up with the corporate world. Managers on power trips thinking employees need to be submissive minions and that their well-being doesn’t matter – only the company does.

      Seriously would love to see how this person would feel if it happened to them.

    2. DG*

      How dare these young whippersnappers not respond with gratitude when their wages are withheld! Kids these days!

        1. NotAnotherManager!*

          +1

          Someone doesn’t pay my team on time and correctly, I would be livid and investigating on their behalf. Missing a month’s worth of pay is beyond unacceptable. I think everyone but OP handled this situation appropriately.

    3. Hotdog not dog*

      Totally reasonable. There is an agreed upon business transaction wherein Jane supplies Company with labor (which according to OP was happening quite well with little training or oversight) and in return Company supplies Jane with income.
      I imagine that if Jane weren’t holding up her end of the bargain Company would certainly call her out on it and ask for more training or put her on a PIP, so Jane had every right to remind Company of the parameters of their agreement.

    4. Your Local Password Resetter*

      Basic business logic? A normal consequence for the company’s disastrous failures? Very levelheaded and reasonable?

      I dream of having Jane’s levels of composure and professionalism.

  28. Person from the Resume*

    OMG, LW. Sorry, but I could tell you were in the wrong by the title and first paragraph.

    My finances can handle a few missed paychecks and I’d still be irate after the incompetence of a payroll employee caused me to miss 3 paychecks. This is a huge deal. That payroll employee needs to be disciplined. You HR person was correct that this is a huge problem to be corrected immediately and making it right includes the time of to deposit the paycheck right away since money should have been automatically deposited a month ago, two weeks, and today.

    Also that first paragraph sounds like it was written by my deceased grandparent, “very big britches.” Almost like the LW was trying to be over the top old fashioned, fist shaking, not on my lawn type.

    1. Richard Hershberger*

      Yup. I could handle a few missed paychecks, but then again I am not working for entry-level pay. Back when I was, this would have been a different matter.

    2. Observer*

      The title is so ridiculous that I’m wondering if this was actually what they wrote or Allison’s title based on the OP’s ridicuslous description of Jane’s “disrespect”.

  29. MuseumChick*

    OP, Alison is absolutely right. If I was not paid TWICE and had tried multiple times to have the situation fixed I would have responded much more strongly than Jane did. It sounds like she was straightforward and professional. You say, “I’m just kind of floored that she’s getting gift cards after speaking to her superiors like that. I’m also uncomfortable because why is our company responsible for her fiscal irresponsibility?” She didn’t get gift cards as a reward but as an apology for a very real wrong done to her by the company. This also isn’t her being fiscally irresponsible. This is the company *causing* her very real harm.

    May I ask, are you in a situation where two weeks without pay wouldn’t affect you? If so you are very lucky.

    1. PhysicsTech*

      Was it two weeks, or two months? I know it’s unusual but I am paid monthly, and if I went two months without being paid even with my good savings I’d absolutely have to move some money around and maybe think long and hard about how much I could spend on some medical treatments i have coming up.

        1. PhysicsTech*

          Oh no problem, I’m not even sure if that info was in the letter, but I’m so glad people are reacting as if it’s dire (because it is!) if it was 1 month vs 2.

      2. Moira Rose*

        This is what I keep wondering about. When I worked in a shop, I was paid weekly. For government (Executive Branch), semiweekly. But a friend in the Legislative Branch gets a paycheck monthly. How bad this was really depends on the frequency of the paycheck! (It’s always going to be *bad* but two weeks is so much less horrifying than two months.)

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      “Oh, it’s FINE, take your time! I’m sure you’ll fix it when you have a moment. Thank you for paying attention to l’il ol’ me!” THAT’S what the LW seems to expect.

      Aaaaannd…NO. That’s (the first part) what I say to the front desk at my building when they’re out of dog treats. That’s low priority. Not getting paid for over a month?!?! Ugh. Seriously, this manager is either a coward or out of touch. Or both, perhaps.

    3. JustaTech*

      A thing that confuses me is also the idea that payroll is Jane’s “superior”? Or did the OP mean HR? Or just to talk like that in front of the OP?

      Does the OP think of all entry-level employees like sorority pledges? For goodness’ sake.

      1. Jasper*

        I’m pretty sure LW meant themselves. Also because LW sounds like exactly the kind of person to only think about themselves.

    5. Observer*

      are you in a situation where two weeks without pay

      Not two weeks, two MONTHS. Payroll needs to be right, every time. If you are paying only monthly, then you don’t even get have a potential safety net, legally speaking (at least in the US). And morally? Don’t get me started.

    6. a user*

      She was also getting gift cards because HR probably realised that she could have filed a labor claim instead, which comes with treble damages (so x3) and a huge fine for the company. They’re probably thanking their lucky stars right now that she only talked strongly to a manager instead of filing a wage claim, which she would have been totally in her rights to do.

  30. Chairman of the Bored*

    Given that the employer missed two paychecks, Jane’s response here is an absolute model of restraint and tact.

    I’d be *at least* that direct with some payroll department that’s jeopardizing my income, and would be entirely justified in doing so.

    1. wittyrepartee*

      Especially when this is your first few months at the company, and you’re sitting there wondering if anyone will ever pay you.

  31. two snakes*

    I’m really glad that this company’s HR seems to be on the ball and pushed back on the LW’s complaint to them. As someone who’s dealt with bouncing cheques from an employer (more than once!) it’s really nice to see payroll issues be handled so professionally.

    LW’s speculation that Jane is lying about her financial hardship is incredibly unprofessional and ungenerous and they should rethink their way of thinking about their employees.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Same! Especially since when you screw up and get called for it, it’s very easy to lean in when someone disparages the other party. Payroll was beautifully professional here.

  32. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

    Holy cats.

    My first post-college job, way back in the long ago, your first paycheck was on paper and then direct deposit kicked in. They accidentally sent my paycheck to the wrong building. HR, payroll, and my manager moved heaven and earth to get me my paycheck that day, instead of waiting for inter-office mail to shuffle it over the next morning. That’s the way to handle things like this.

    The higher ups in payroll and accounting should have been mortified that they screwed this up so badly, and gone out of their way to apologize right away and do whatever was necessary to get this woman her money. And OP should have gone to bat for her as well.

    The fact that she didn’t come to OP the first time they failed to pay her – not even CC’ing an email – indicates how little trust there is between her and OP.

    1. Bagpuss*

      Absolutely. People are human and mistakes happen, but you need to then fix them.

      We had a situation where a combination of someone being sloppy at our end, and someone junior at the payroll company not checking things they should have checked, meant an employee whose hours had changed didn’t get their increased pay when they should have. The change has been just after the cut off point for submitting payroll in the previous month so they were due about 5 weeks worth at the higher rate, and they had gone from 2 days to 4 so it was a significant change.

      My business partner and I were in different locations so dealing via e-mail and we both had the same response which was “work out the shortfall, pay that by bank transfer today, and if that means we pay a bank fee so that the funds clear today, then do that – *then* go back and work out what paperwork needs to be done to ensure that the tax and NI work out correctly, and that everything is up together for next month’s payroll, and make sure it’s double-checked so it is right”

      Our employee was not as polite as Jane when they saw the error, but they didn’t do or say anything egregious either, nd they were very stressed (they had additional child care costs and because of the timing they were already stretched because our pay roll cycle and the billing cycle for their child care were out of synch, so they had paid of some of the extra time before they were due to be paid for their extra work, but I don’t thin their finances were relevant – it was our mistake, and we needed to fix it, and that would still have been true been if they had had vast savings and were merely mildly inconvenienced.

  33. Joan Clayton*

    I am confused as to why you’re confused letter writer… would you have preferred Jane sit and suffer in silence and hope that payroll would get it right, after her numerous emails?? From your letter, it seems that Jane gave payroll the chance to make it up once before and they didn’t, which caused her to miss another pay period that is almost TWO MONTHS with no pay (if you guys are bi-weekly).
    Honestly, Jane handled it correctly, and better than I would have (admitted Petty Patty). And that extra $500 is owed to Jane respectfully because your company frig up!
    If I was Jane, I’d be job hunting on the low, sorry, not sorry! #WorstBossEntry

    1. Joan Clayton*

      After a second reading: “We also don’t know if she is actually experiencing a financial hardship or just claiming she was.”
      Ma’am/ Sir, she was experiencing financial hardship, because she was without wages for two months!!

      “Her personal finances or debts are not the company’s responsibility”
      Yes, it is! Because you are supposed to pay her in a timely manner so she can pay her personal debts!
      Like, what world do you live in!?

      1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

        “Her personal finances or debts are not the company’s responsibility”
        The personal finances are EXACTLY the company’s responsibility. Her finances are FROM the company.
        How does one plan better than having a full time job with scheduled pay days?

        1. Joan Clayton*

          EXACTLY! I don’t even know how LW set her fingers to type this letter, proofread it, and hit send.

          1. Fran Fine*

            LMAO! Some people truly have no amount of self awareness. It would be comical if it wasn’t negatively impacting someone else.

            1. Candi*

              The ghosting boyfriend whose three-year girlfriend He abandoned became his boss ten years after that, anyone?

            2. Anon government bureaucrat*

              Guacamole bob! Fretting over paying an extra $500 to try to make right with your great new hire when you royally screwed up is some guacamole bob logic

      2. NyaChan*

        Interesting how OP doesn’t consider the unpaid wages a debt owed by the company to Jane. Pay your own bills before you judge her finances!

    2. Not Mr. Collins!*

      This is where I was. What _exactly_ was the response that the LW would have accepted as correctly sized for their britches? Even if I was Scrooge McDuck, I want to be paid for my labor. Thinking about it, Scrooge McDuck wouldn’t have been as polite as your employee.

      Would having becoming homeless been respectful? Would not having food be respectful? Car repossessed?

      I can remember being in my first professional job and having to put bills in a drawer to wait for the next paycheck. If I hadn’t gotten two paychecks in a row, that drawer would have been almighty full and I would have to borrow money, if I could. I didn’t have much of a credit rating at that point, so I would have been down to relatives and friends that were at the same stage of career. At that stage of someone’s career, fiscal planning is simple and dire. No amount of prior planning would be able to cover not getting paid.

      Further, no matter what stage you are in your career, the Fed survey for 2020 shows that only 55% of American have a 3 month emergency fund, 36% of Americans would have difficulty paying a $400 unexpected expense and 12% would not be able to pay a $400 unexpected expense.

      Respect goes both ways. If I had a supervisor that was more concerned about my obsequiousness than my financial well being, I would be doing anything to get away from them. Have you looked at the turnover in your area, LW?

      1. Candi*

        Speaking of Scrooge McDuck, he is an absolute skinflint about wages -but he still paid them. And the calculations on his wealth show he can buy and sell his world’s governments if he wants to. (Why do you think he never has to wait on paperwork when he and his family are off on an adventure?)

  34. Anonomatopoeia*

    Is there a category for where the letter writer is wildly off base?

    Employment is a two-way agreement: The employee provides her time and labor, and in exchange you pay her on an agreed schedule. She held up her end of the agreement by doing her work. The failure to live up to the agreement is wholly on your side. Of course she said that it can’t happen again! This is her letting you know that you need to uphold your end of the deal.

    Your employee owes you her end of the agreement, not some bizarre posture where she has to pretend it’s fine if you aren’t holding up your end.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I would enjoy that category but wonder if it would fall under the same logic as “don’t nominate LWs for worst boss of the year” where Alison doesn’t want to discourage people from writing in by disparaging them. We want the bad bosses to write in and improve!

        1. Observer*

          Not going to happen. Generally when someone is THIS off base and gets (justifiably!) blasted, we don’t hear bask.

    2. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      The category could be called “reality check” and could also be tagged in when LWs have been worn down by odd work practices and need to be kindly nudged back on track. It wouldn’t need to mean the LW was in the wrong.

  35. MCR*

    I was really preparing myself for the issue to be that Jane flew off the handle when she complained about not getting her paycheck – like berated the payroll person or something. Alison touched on this but I think it bears emphasizing that Jane reacted remarkably appropriately and maturely in this situation – a polite but firm response. There is nothing “entitled” about demanding on-time compensation for hours worked.

    1. Data Analyst*

      Right?! She had the grace to say “I appreciate the apology” as part of her reply! It sounds eminently measured and professional, given the circumstances!

  36. Snarkus Aurelius*

    OP, your company committed theft. I’m not sure you understand that. It’s no different than leaving the grocery store without paying and then feeling disrespected when security tells you that you can never do that again.

    You cannot take something without paying for it. Period.

    If nothing else, you should switch places with this employee and see how sympathetic your credit card company would be if you couldn’t pay your bills due to someone else’s error.

    Finally, since you referred to her age, you need to look up the definition of respect. When I see older generations like my parents making similar complaints, they use the word “respect” when they really mean “unquestioned obedience.”

    1. LKW*

      Or reverse this – it’s no different than paying for your groceries but getting nothing in return. If the OP bought something, the company charged the credit card and returned no goods, would the OP consider that acceptable? Would the OP call the company and demand either a refund or goods be delivered?

      That’s what Jane did. She appropriately addressed the situation each time. She also made it clear that it had now happened three times and it should not happen a fourth.

    2. kbeers0su*

      +1000 to everything here. I love the analogy you gave to explain the theft aspect. OP totally doesn’t understand.

    3. Lab Boss*

      Regarding the definition of respect, I’ve seen various versions of this floating around:

      Respect can mean “treating someone like a fellow human being” or it can mean “treating someone like they’re more important than you.” A lot of people say “if you want me to show you respect, you have to show me respect” when they really mean “if you want me to treat you like a human being, you have to treat me like I’m more important than you.”

      1. Stopgap*

        I don’t use the word “respect” anymore, because of that ambiguity. Instead I use “courtesy” or “deference”.

        “If you want me to show you courtesy, you have to show me deference.” Sounds much less reasonable worded like that, doesn’t it?

        1. Brisvegan*

          Ooh, I really like your rephrasing!

          I made a similar comment above, but yours is so much clearer.

    4. bamcheeks*

      There is a Tumblr screenshot that floats around twitter, which is something like, “Some people say, if you respect me, I’ll respect me, but they’re using two different versions of respect. They mean: if you treat me like an authority, I’ll treat you like a person”. That’s really the definition of respect that OP is using here: she’s not looking for respect, she’s looking for deference, and she’s refusing to respect Jane as a person unless she gets it.

        1. Snarkus Aurelius*

          I find the people who have genuine respect from others don’t sweat whether or not they have it or keep it.

  37. Occasionally Engineer*

    I’m speechless, utterly speechless. In what world is it ok for a company to have 2 skipped pay periods? Honestly, HR did the right thing by cutting the cheque right away. As for OP, I don’t know what you think is appropriate but bowing down and scraping your head in deference to management because management deigns to let entry level people work at the company is, quite simply, toxic. This attitude prevents collaboration, and will come back to bite you in the behind.

    The number one rule is don’t mess with pay, it doesn’t matter. People go to work to get paid, the loyalty to the company, love of the job, this is all secondary. Pay is first and foremost the reason people go to work, you mess with that and having someone very politely tell you that it is unacceptable is probably the least of your worries.

    1. Former Usher*

      I agree with your number one rule. I started a new job last year and had issues with not being able to log in (required a three-way call with IT and HR to establish that I even worked for the company!), software (how did they forget to install Microsoft Office?), dependent health benefits, my HSA, and my 401k.

      But I was paid on time and at the correct rate. So I kept showing up and all of the other issues eventually got resolved.

    2. Sparqness*

      Yeah, this situation and the comments are reminding me of my last paid position (self-employed now, which is its own set of pay stressors). I looked at my first paycheque after our new collective agreement went into force, and I was paid… less? Long story short, the payroll person had messed up way back, and I had been slightly overpaid for about two and a half years. Our paystubs were the worst – it was nearly impossible to sort out all the deductions and stuff, let alone what you were actually being paid, because in the collective agreement it was listed as annual salary, and in the pay stub was listed as hourly pay rate. I looked into the relevant laws, and if it was the other way, the employer would only have been on the hook to pay any underpayment for six months. But no, they wanted half back. So I gave them the $4,000 at $100/paycheque, and quietly took my unexpected pay cut for the next year. And then stayed there another six years. Wish I’d seen that as the warning sign it was – I might have avoided a complete mental breakdown.

  38. Nia*

    I hope Jane (and everyone else working for LW) does transfer to a different department. LW clearly shouldn’t be managing anybody.

  39. Crivens!*

    OP, I really hope you gain perspective and understanding of YOUR place as a manager. If you don’t, you absolutely should not be managing people, ever.

    1. The Gnome*

      YOUR NAME IS WHAT THE OP THOUGHT WHEN JANE ADVOCATED FOR HERSELF. XD

      Then the OP went all wailey wailey.

      3. Lentils*

        I am now imagining the Feegles besieging payroll until Jane gets her money. Delightful mental image.

        2. CB*

          It would only take a matter of minutes to resolve the situation – once the Feegles turn up, payroll would want to be hiding in the cupboard from them as quickly as possible!

  40. House Tyrell*

    I had a situation similar to this and while my direct supervisor was very helpful and supportive his great-grandboss and HR were the opposite of helpful and very much like OP. HR entered my start date incorrectly, resulting in me losing over half my first paycheck with them and having to put some bills on credit, which racked up interest. It took two months of back and forth and they refused to pay me for the first 3 days of work “because I was just onboarding anyway” and it was a nonprofit so I “should want that money to go toward the mission.” My boss personally cut me a check for the missing part of my paycheck and refused to let me pay him back in full because he felt so bad about the debt I had accrued, especially since it was my first paycheck.

    OP, you should stop obsessing over your employees personal expenses. Missing a paycheck can be devastating for most people. We’re all closer to homelessness than we are to being millionaires. Your HR handled this exactly like they should have and you need to treat your staff fairly and not pass judgement on their personal finances. If you have made any comments to Jane about this situation where you have been unkind, you should apologize and not treat her differently going forward. If you can’t treat her fairly now because of your weird respect dynamics you should move on from this role because you’re not being a good manager.

    1. The Original K.*

      “Just onboarding anyway … should want that money to go toward the mission …” I CANNOT.

      1. House Tyrell*

        Yeah I had come from a corporate job too so I tried to explain that that is not how budgets even work and threatened to report them to the labor department for our state but then covid happened and we ceased to exist anyway. The HR people were two women who had worked in field but never in HR so I was literally using AAM and links to the labor dept for our state to try and explain why they needed to pay me. I never did get paid by the company for those 3 days!

        1. Joan Clayton*

          House Tyrell, you still haven’t received your wages from your first day working? Has your organization updated your employee record to reflect your correct start date??
          As a state labor employee (not in that relevant department), I think it may be worth filing a complaint. If a company gets away with something once, they’ll do it again and again, until it becomes “procedure.” Sorry, you had to experience that.

          1. House Tyrell*

            If they don’t exist anymore (shuttered their doors during covid, to no ones surprise did not even make it two months into the pandemic) and I file a complaint, is there a fund that would pay me? This was late 2019 and I live in a different state now too but I would be interested in filing a complaint if something could come of it.) Changing the start date on my employee record was a hassle but it was corrected to reflect my accurate first day after we closed because I was able to file for unemployment with that information.

            1. Joan Clayton*

              Not sure about a ‘fund’ that would pay those back wages; you may have to file a small claims suit. I’d advise you to reach out to your state’s DOL and ask for the department that handles workforce protection, they can best advise on how to proceed.

            2. Jasper*

              Wages are pretty high up on the priority list for getting paid during bankruptcy, but after this much time has passed, and for relatively few days work, it’s unlikely to be worth the time to pursue it now. You’d have to start by figuring out what actually even happened to the entity that was going to pay you. Is it going through bankruptcy? Has it already completed one? A different form of ending than bankruptcy? Ceased to trade but is still around and tied to the founders’ natural persons? Lots of options, possibly with laws of multiple states involved… it’ll be a mess.

    2. Jay Gobbo*

      My wife and I have a similar saying, but I’m going to adopt “we’re all closer to homelessness than we are to being millionaires” because it’s better and more succinct <3

      I have to stop myself from raging through the comments saying "the class war is the only war worth fighting!!" because AAAAUUUGGGHHH this letter!!!!

      1. Ari*

        There’s a phrase I heard on the show Hoarders that really stuck with me: “we’re all five decisions away from pooping in a bucket.”

    4. SarahKay*

      We’re all closer to homelessness than we are to being millionaires.

      This is so true, and not something I’d ever thought of before, but will for sure be quoting in the future.

      1. Candi*

        I read an interesting article many years ago about what nonprofits pay for administrative expenses.

        Yes, you should watch out for those who pay too much -but you should also watch out for those who pay to little. Best case scenario, they’re on the up and up but are using volunteers for jobs that NEED paid staff, either legally or because you need educated, skilled personnel in that position (they used accountant as an example), worst case is they’re cutting corners everywhere, including on materials they need to actually do the mission.

    6. Candi*

      it was a nonprofit so I “should want that money to go toward the mission.”

      NOPE.

      You donate your paycheck to the mission. I want mine in my hot little hands.

    7. jy3*

      “Just onboarding”
      1. Time I spend at the job is time I can’t spend not at the job. If you insist I give you my time despite not having any use for it, that’s a “you problem.” Pay me.
      2. Onboarding helps me to do useful work later, even if it’s just because I’m no longer onboarding afterward. Therefore, onboarding is productive. Pay me.

  41. bunniferous*

    I hope Jane DOES go to another department -to get away from this manager. Oy.

    Dude, please don’t live up to my stereotype. PLEASE listen to Alison and change your attitude.

    1. JustaClarifier*

      +1 I was hoping someone would say this. OP seems so biased that I cannot even fathom how they could fairly manage anyone, let alone continue to manage poor Jane.

  42. SwampWitch*

    I really hope Jane recognizes herself and leaves. Two of my paychecks bounced when I started a new job. After the second one bounced, I bounced. I really hope Jane leaves and I really hope OP takes some time off to breathe and recalibrate. I don’t know what situations OP was in that made them think this way, but they can’t be happy either if they think clear boundaries are bad.

  43. Former Borders Refugee*

    Welcome to the future, where employees stand up for their rights and hold the line. No more groveling, no more “you should be grateful to work here.”

    Good for Jane.

  44. Anonymous Poster*

    Pay and benefits are a huge deal and I can understand why an employee would be very trepidatious continuing to work for a place that consistently messes these things up. And this is a huge deal! It’s affecting the U.S. federal government too: Read about it here.

    Absolutely people are concerned about it and it’s a good thing to get very upset about. Your employee… did the right thing in making it clear this is still an issue and that it needs to be resolved. Because it has to be.

    A lot of this is a bunch of smoke screen, because regardless, you should care very much that your company is fulfilling their part of this employment situation, which is paying your employee.

    Please have your employee’s back. Make sure they are getting paid.

    1. Jlynn*

      I remember when the govt shut down a few years ago and people were like so what they don’t need to be paid. And I all I could think was – most of us in the goverment are not high paid politicians. We are clerks, officers, secretaries, – you know support staff that isn’t high paid and we have lives/families/responsibilities just like the rest of you. Paying employees is VERY important – no matter what the job.

  45. Interviewer*

    We tell letter writers all the time that problems with paychecks can be red flags. But combine that with copping an attitude about the employee’s communication style when she’s telling you there’s a big problem, and you have a giant parade of crimson right here.

  46. Discordia Angel Jones*

    I tell you what LW my flabber is well and truly gasted and my gob is well and truly smacked… not by Jane’s behaviour but by your privileged attitude and intolerant viewpoint.

      1. La Triviata*

        This letter is like a lot of entries in the Reddit AITA section – someone gets all self-righteous and thinks they’ve been wronged when the other person acted reasonably or, in reverse, did something to/about someone they believe treated them badly and – guess what! – they ARE the one in the wrong.

  48. Rebecca*

    OP – please transfer Jane to another department. She deserves to have a different manager if she stays with your company at all. There is no “respect gap with with younger staff”, the respect gap lies with you.

  49. rehtaej*

    I think Jane transferring to a manager who understands very basic workplace norms would be great for her, honestly.

    She acted great! After the first time, she noted the problem, and asked to confirm it was fixed. The payroll person said it was fixed. Then the next pay period came, and she was still not paid. It seems like you pay monthly, so it’s been 2 months without pay. A lot of people — especially people who are early in their careers, as it seems Jane is — do not have 2 months of expenses available (especially since, eg, income-based loan repayment would be assuming she is getting paid).

    1. Tiffany Aching's imaginary friend*

      > The payroll person said it was fixed

      But they didn’t actually check, did they? That’s a big mistake and I hope they have learned to be more careful going forward.

  50. The Original K.*

    I am seething.

    A former employer implemented a new payroll system and it messed up, which meant that half the company didn’t get paid. There was a line out HR’s door, as well there should have been, and HR took many of the same steps this employer did for Jane. Some time later, my team was laid off and they messed up my severance, and you better believe I called HR daily until it was resolved. The head of HR apologized to me.

    You cannot play with people’s compensation. The vast majority of us work for money we need to live. I’m really, really tired of employers expecting us to pretend money doesn’t matter, and I’m also tired of this deference some employers expect. Jane was right. HR was right once they got it corrected. OP was wrong.

    “Britches.” MY GOD.

    1. SeluciaMD*

      I really do not understand this gaggle of managers, employers and execs that think that somehow a job is a gift you have bestowed upon a lesser being and no matter what happens in that job or what hardships that person suffers, they should always be “grateful” for the job.

      My brother is in one of those jobs working for one of those managers and the stuff that goes on at his workplace is mindbogglingly bad. He hasn’t been there for quite a year and was hoping to hold on until he got over that hump but it’s so awful that he’s decided he can’t wait that long. Can’t wait ’til this job is in his rearview.

      1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

        I am grateful for my job precisely because it enables me to earn money which I can exchange for goods and services. I’m certain I could find other fulfilling ways to occupy my time!

    2. The Price is Wrong Bob*

      Seriously. They STOLE from Jane and now the OP is huffy about her extremely reasonable response.

  51. Clare*

    Can this possibly be a spoof, just to see how juicy the comments can get? Alison as usual has it spot-on. Not ill-wishing the OP but you are really riding for a fall here. Please, look out of the window and see how difficult many companies are finding recruitment at the moment…and that’s good companies that don’t view the law as optional when it comes to employees. OP, I think you should run, not walk, to the nearest professional mentoring opportunity. Is this typical of your company? Either way, there are major issues to fix; if yes, there’s no point being the best-looking horse in the glue factory; if you’re in a minority, please get some help before it comes out and destroys your career.

    1. NerdBoss*

      I also wondered if this was perhaps satire because of how out of touch this OP seemed to be in terms of basic expectations around work (i.e. getting compensated for your time)

      1. 40 Years in the Nonprofit Trenches*

        Likewise. I was reading this like, “oh there is no possible way this is for real.” But I assume Alison, like Dan Savage, has a good nose for spoofs and takes some steps to vet the more farcical letters LIKE THIS ONE.

      2. Not Mr. Collins!*

        I know someone who had disdain for a cashier because he wasn’t “deferential enough”.

        Huh? We were picking up a cake and he brought it out to the car for us. But because he was not visibly grateful for the business and apparently did not act with obsequiousness, she was unhappy.

        I was just grateful he brought out the cake.

        So people like this are out there. And, yes, I backed away from that supposed friend.

  52. SarahKay*

    OP, about two years back our company messed up on an increase to some of the shift pay allowances which meant the automated payroll wouldn’t pay the extra that month. This was only going to be £10-£20 for anyone in a month; hopefully not enough to cause anyone hardship.
    We did manual calculations for every affected employee, added manual entries for payroll for all the relevant amounts, and then personally went and spoke to every single person to explain what had happened, why it would look different on their payslip, and to apologise for any confusion.
    You know why we did this? Because it’s their pay!

    We have a legal and moral obligation to pay them what we agreed, and any of the affected people would have been well within their rights to be furious if we hadn’t proactively fixed it.

    Our job is to get them paid the correct amount at the correct time, and what they spend that money on, or how badly they need it is none of our business.

    1. SeluciaMD*

      Kudos to you and your company for handling that exactly right. The OP could learn some very important lessons from you all.

    2. not that kind of Doctor*

      this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      When paychecks get screwed up at my office, it’s fixed THAT DAY with money in the employee’s hand and many apologies!!! If it keeps happening, well, someone got fired for that a couple years ago. He was a great guy & awesome coworker but you CANNOT screw up payroll!! Repeatedly!!

      We fix it immediately even when it’s the employee’s fault, ie they forgot to tell us they changed banks. They earned that paycheck & they will get it! The company can be out $1000 or so for a few days but the employees often cannot.

  53. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

    One firm I worked for messed up payroll and didn’t pay me one month. It took over 3 weeks for them to sort it and the damage to my finances was severe (think missing a mortgage payment severe). They, too, didn’t seem to understand how catastrophic it can be to not be paid on time.

    Their line was ‘well, everyone should have savings to cover a few months expenses so it’s not our fault you didn’t plan’ and had I not been 23 at the time I probably would have got just as angry as your staff member.

    Instead I cried a lot at home.

    Compassion. People need it.

    1. House Tyrell*

      I was 23 when my payroll issues (written about above) happened too! I don’t have a mortgage but I had to put every bill except rent on my credit card for that month because “shockingly” many 23yos don’t have a ton of savings!

      1. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

        Oh god, so many things had to go on a credit card during those weeks. The interest on that debt was not pleasant.

        1. House Tyrell*

          I never calculated what I paid more in- interest or overdraft fees from my bills that were on autopay. :////

          1. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

            I’m still trying to pay off the substantial debts I got from being unemployed for 2 years – the credit card is the worst.

        2. House Tyrell*

          I never calculated what I paid more in- interest of overdraft fees from my bills that were on autopay. :////

    2. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Ugh I missed mortgage payments due to screwups *by the mortgage company* and still took a huge hit to my credit. That kind of thing can actually mess up your life.

      Also – 23 is a very normal age not to have a huge stockpile in savings (she says at 29 still trying to shove her Christmas money into a savings account every year and wondering how it doesn’t stay there). What jerks.

      1. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

        Heck, I’m in my 40s and don’t have a savings blanket!

        Well, I did, but after 2 years unemployment and the events of 2020 it kinda vanished. Now I’m at the ‘if I don’t get paid then I can’t put fuel in the car’ level again. And, yeah, my credit rating is not great because of all that time not working.

      2. AY*

        Yes, my mortgage company once double deducted a mortgage payment from my account. It caused me to overdraft and incur fees because I don’t keep a lot of money in that account. Stuff like that snowballs so fast!

        1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

          Yes, very relevant to the LW – anyone can be brilliant at budgeting until the unexpected happens, such as a wrongly calculated automatic debit, or a missed credit. Budgeting relies on everybody doing their jobs properly.

          In my twenties I once got hit by a bad phone bill – nearly ten times what it should have been, automatically debited*. I crashed hard into my overdraft and was therefore effectively penniless for weeks. It took months for the phone company to correct its mistake and the interest payments were killer in the meantime.

          (* nowadays I have heard of the UK Direct Debit Guarantee and would have had the payment reversed ASAP, but at 21 I simply didn’t know)

    3. DANGER: Gumption Ahead*

      F that attitude. I do have a few months in savings and I still want to be paid on time and in full. I shouldn’t have to tap my savings when I AM F-ING EMPLOYED FOR WAGES. Those are for times when I am between jobs. When I am working it isn’t on my to financially cover for the employer’s incompetence.

      *cooling down now, but this has my enraged*

      1. Not always right( but this time I was)*

        Right? Jane’s lack of savings is 100% irrelevant. Even if she had million dollars in savings, it’s still irrelevant. I hope Jane gets transferred out of Scrooge’s department ASAP

        1. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

          Personally I sincerely hope that OP has a major moment of reflection upon reading Alison’s post (which frankly is a masterpiece – I’m actually in awe of how she replied. Seriously Alison – you outdid yourself) and goes and has a long think about their prejudices (thinking people should just have savings or it’s their fault if they can’t afford food).

          Or they cease being a manager until that moment of revelation.

          However, it’s more likely that they’ll reply either in the comments or to AAM inbox that we’re all ‘entitled’ and probably all under 25 (goddess, I wish, I’d still be able-bodied) and buying designer handbags instead of saving our salaries etc.

          (I’m kinda overloaded on cynicism this past week. It’s been a rough 10 days)

          2. Candi*

            Ebenezer and McDuck both did. Ebenezer also didn’t make a crack about the poor managing their finances better (in spite of the other nasty things he said), and McDuck only said that to his grandnephews (and sometimes he was right).

    4. Kazu*

      I remember I cried to one of my bosses at 23 for not getting $300 dollars after several months. $300 is a lot of money to many of us. But to a 23 year old? It means potentially forgoing rent or groceries.

      I couldn’t imagine a whole paycheck.

      1. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

        It involved not eating for a while.

        And since 2018-2020 wiped out my savings I’m in the same position again where one missed paycheque will mean choosing between feeding me or feeding the cat.

        (The cat will win. He’s not capable of getting a job that doesn’t involve destroying Lego sets and cleaning his bum)

    5. Annie*

      Spot on. Jane’s money *is* saved in an account – the employer’s account! Where it’s not supposed to be because she’s employed for pay!

    7. LabTechNoMore*

      Worked somewhere like this too. Large public university that surprise-withheld my pay for ~1 month because they were “processing” my promotion. And acted like I was wrong for persistently asking when I would be paid (“I don’t know” said the employee doing payroll with a smile and a shrug). Worst part was, years later I found out that they do this for everyone that gets a promotion. Without warning.

      1. LabTechNoMore*

        Also it wasn’t even an actual promotion, I just graduated so they were required to pay me more.

        1. Anonomatopoeia*

          So, I’m going to say you should tell the state about that one, especially if you suspect it’s still happening, even if you’re no longer there. Public institution? Probably not only has general wage laws to adhere to, but also has state policy stuff to adhere to, and the state apparatus DEFINITELY knows that’s some hot nonsense.

  54. Cat Lover*

    Young millennials and Gen Zers are really putting companies/superiors/etc in their place and I love it. People cannot tolerate stuff like this (even things that aren’t malicious).

    “I’m also uncomfortable because why is our company responsible for her fiscal irresponsibility?”- what the f***?? You didn’t pay her on time!!! Ahhhhh!!!!

  55. NewYork*

    Wow, I am likely older than OP, and I would be mortified if this happened to one of my people. I cannot believe OP wrote this

  56. Mary Anne Spier*

    “I’m also uncomfortable because why is our company responsible for her fiscal irresponsibility?”

    Why is she responsible for your payroll department’s incompetence? Ask that question. And how should she have handled it when your company is expecting her to work for free at this point?

        1. Girl Alex PR*

          In the workplace, leaders who get too big for their britches are considered especially heinous. On the internet, the commentators who respond to these vicious felonies are members of an elite blog known as “Ask a Manager.”

  58. Essentially Cheesy*

    Jane, we are here for you and your bonkers crazy boss needs a swift kick somewhere about their head & shoulders!! No one messes with paychecks, regardless of a person’s financial situation. Period!! I really hope the LW reads this response and gets a major attitude adjustment.

  59. Eric*

    “Neither payroll nor I knew anything about it until today” Didn’t you say that she had been e-mailing back and forth with payroll? What more was she supposed to do to let them know?

    1. EvilQueenRegina*

      It might have been that Jane was dealing with a specific employee, but the manager of payroll hadn’t been involved in the situation and didn’t know about it until that meeting….but either way it sounds like Jane was doing what she could.

    2. Pterodactylate*

      Yep. If she’s been in contact with a member of the payroll staff, that means payroll knows about it. It sounds like LW would have preferred in Jane just quietly worked for free instead of very politely and professionally communicating that the company needs to pay what they legally owe her.

    3. Sara without an H*

      The OP didn’t know about it because he/she wasn’t paying attention. If this had happened to one of my reports, I’d have been up in Payroll’s grill every damned day until they fixed it.

    1. cryptid*

      (This is a little bit joking and a little bit serious. The lw is totally unfit to manage people with these weird attitudes about work and money, and will potentially drive off good employees who have the temerity to want to be paid correctly. I can’t tell from the letter if Jane knows her boss is Like This, but if she does I hope she goes to the grandboss about it.)

      1. backtomonke*

        With attitudes like that it’s almost certain that the LW already HAS driven off good employees.

  61. Philly Redhead*

    “I’m also uncomfortable because why is our company responsible for her fiscal irresponsibility? Her personal finances or debts are not the company’s responsibility. I just don’t think it’s the company’s responsibility to give her more than what she’s earned (the extra $500 from the employee emergency relief fund) to fix things for her if she overspent or didn’t prioritize her bills or save smartly. We also don’t know if she is actually experiencing a financial hardship or just claiming she was.”

    ::BLINK BLINK::

    Wow. How was she supposed to “prioritize smartly” or not overspend WHEN YOU WEREN’T PAYING HER?

    1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

      “more than what she’s earned”
      Well, OP, the company didn’t give her that, so your moral contract is void.

      1. Empress Matilda*

        Actually that’s the exact problem – she *didn’t* have a budget of zero. She had a budget of 2 paycheques, and ended up getting zero.

    3. AllTheBirds*

      That really chaps the collective ass.

      OP, your employees’ financial situations are NONE OF YOUR BIZ. They work, you pay. If you don’t pay, expect to be called out on it.

      Jane did you a favor. She caused you to write to AAM and get schooled in management. You’re failing at this point. Wise up.

    4. ecnaseener*

      That is definitely the most appalling line in a very appalling letter. HOW…..WHAT…how is it her fault she needs money she was promised in exchange for full time work??!?!?!

    5. LabTechNoMore*

      The thing that I’m most indignant about in this letter (and there’s a lot to chose from) is that Jane now has a strike against her by the supervisor’s perspective for the “undeserved” $500 she received for “being disrespectful”. And how LW doesn’t want to be her manager anymore. So, to recap: Company a) hired Jane, b) failed to pay Jane, and c) is now trying to force Jane out because of item b.

    6. Nanani*

      Not important but your username makes me immediately think of Gritty, who I’m sure would -love- to run into OP. Armed with messy foodstuffs to throw at them.

  62. serenity*

    As someone who works closely with HR and payroll staff, what happened here would have been an immediate firing offense at my large organization. OP, you are the one who is out of line here and you need to either learn some remedial management skills or realize — very quickly — that payroll errors are a big, big deal.

  63. C in the Hood*

    And another thing…the gift cards were indemnifying Jane for lost time & possibly extra fees for lost money. How dare you say she wasn’t entitled to that?

  64. Ashley*

    Halfway through that letter I had to start skimming through it because I was filled with rage. Woosah….

  65. Susanne*

    The “big britches” comment is something I haven’t heard since my grandmother was still alive. She died 30+ years ago. And she was old when she died. I only point this out to say that it makes me sort of HOPE this email is a meant as a joke.

    OP, respect is a two way street or it’s meaningless. Your company – unintentionally, of course – violated the most basic of employment laws – pay people as agreed. It’s a BIG. DEAL. And questioning someone’s ability to go without pay for several pay periods (in a day and time when many of us have bills on autopilot and don’t monitor accounts daily) is really out of touch with how most people live.

    I do hope this is not a real email. If it is, OP, I suggest you may be the one with the oversized pantaloons.

  66. it's just the frame of mind*

    I’d like to make a comment, but first I need to run down to the basement to get my JAW.

  67. UKgreen*

    Alison, I know your mailbox is huge but please tell me this one’s in the backlog from what, the 1960s???

  68. Roscoe*

    I’m floored that OP could write this out and not realize how absurd she sounds. You sound like a manager who, essentially, expects their employees to “shut up and work”. This wasn’t like she was calling out mistakes that have no impact. She wasn’t paid. And you want to transfer her because, what, she wasn’t deferrential enough to you. Just because you are manager, you think you are above reproach?

    You are the one who probably needs to be transferred.

    1. SeluciaMD*

      Yep, OP definitely needs to be transferred. And by “transferred” I mean “fired.” Because if OP was one of my managers and behaved like this? We’d be on a PIP bare minimum, but I’d be stripping them of their supervisory duties STAT and would seriously be thinking about showing them the door.

      This is banana-crackers.

  69. 4eyedlibrarian*

    We have to be kind on this site, so I’ll just stick with: this lived up to the hype it got on Twitter. Also, good for Jane to stick up for herself. It’s even more difficult to do when you’re new AND it’s entry level

  70. LKW*

    I find it baffling that Jane’s behavior is seen as disrespectful. She raised an issue. She technically did not get paid three times, the sample, the first pay period, the second pay period. She didn’t scream, she didn’t rage. The first two times it happened, she raised the issue and expected it to be resolved. The second time she escalated the issue, as she should. It shouldn’t have happened the first two times, it definitely shouldn’t have happened a third.

    The OP describes the approach as rather matter of fact: You must pay me. You have repeatedly made mistakes that have caused me harm. Please get your act together.

    Is the OP used to dealing with House Goblins or something?

    1. Nea*

      I think OP is taking the ultimatum – something long overdue from Jane’s end – as being the core disrespect here. In that entry level employees should not make ultimatums, apparently even when they have been legally and repeatedly wronged by their employer.

  71. Nora*

    Imagine if Jane just didn’t show up for work for two pay periods straight, and still got paid. Would you give her as many chances as she has given the company? Would you be as polite as she has been?

    1. Meghan*

      A very interesting way of looking at it! And BONUS: She’s been doing GREAT at her job. What the heck letter writer??

      1. Jay Gobbo*

        Literally at least a third of the comments are just some variation of “imagine yourself in your employee’s situation”. That’s called EMPATHY, Letter Writer!! Say it with me now… EEEMPATHYYYYYY *tears hair out*

  72. Texas Librarian*

    I kind of feel like the OP should be in the running for worst boss of the year. Is that a first? What an inhuman boss.

    1. SeluciaMD*

      Sadly nowhere near a first on this site. The boss with the employee that quit and was deemed “ungrateful” because she wasn’t allowed to go to her own college graduation (and if you don’t know that letter, it’s even worse than it sounds) still probably takes the crown of OP’s that make the bad boss of the year rankings.

        1. Observer*

          No. Because Allison has a policy of not nominating letter writers. Otherwise, there would be a number of them. Some managers really are bonkers. Those are the letters that are most likely to get “Are you SURE this letter is real?” responses. Because, really? Telling the company that a problem that should have been fixed long ago needs to be fixed today is “not understanding” her “place”?

          I see I’m not the only one asking this, but is Jane by any chance Black?

  73. Sandi*

    I’ve worked in a place that had technical problems paying some employees their regular pay. Our new team member didn’t get his first pay, and we checked in on the second one. He said that he was fine, as he had just finished school and lived with his parents, but we brought it to the finance folks and asked them to write him a check because we refused to force him to wait any extra time before he could rent his own apartment and enjoy his well-earned pay.

    Does the OP not realize how problematic it is to not pay someone who just started a job? If the pay is every week then that’s easier to manage, but if the pay is every month then not being paid until the third month is mind-boggling. In our case it was every two weeks so it wasn’t too bad to wait 4 weeks, but we didn’t know when his pay would be resolved so we decided not to wait.

    I can understand that the pay person wouldn’t be able to guarantee that the problem was fixed until the employee was paid, but that could easily be addressed by Payroll saying “Please let us know if it is fixed next pay period. If not then we will write you a check and try to fix it again.”

  74. Nick in DC*

    I appreciate the response here. People need to be paid on time. The employee may be tough to deal with and a bad fit, but that is a separate issue. This is not where you want to make that argument.

    1. not a doctor*

      I mean, from what OP says, there’s absolutely no sign that Jane is actually tough to deal with OR that she would be a bad fit for any manager that had, like, a basic sense of norms. She sounds like a smart, capable, and respectful young woman, in fact.

      1. Jay Gobbo*

        Yeah if LW wanted to make themself look good and the employee look bad tbh they didn’t even do a good job of that. There’s no evidence that the employee is a bad fit. Tough to deal with? — yeah, for this high-and-mighty employer who uses phrases like “too big for your britches” *eyeroll*

      2. DANGER: Gumption Ahead*

        Yep. The LW’s description of Jane is “Her work is great and she needed very little training”. I wish all my entry-level employees were this “difficult”

      3. Coder von Frankenstein*

        Exactly. Jane was not disrespectful in the least. She was polite but firm, stood up for herself, and accepted the apology and the compensation.

        *Nothing* in the OP’s letter suggests that Jane was in any way tough to deal with or a bad fit–quite the contrary, in fact: “Her work is great and she needs very little training.”

    2. Observer*

      . The employee may be tough to deal with and a bad fit, but that is a separate issue

      Why would you think that this is a possibility? There is absolutely NOTHING in the OP’s description that indications someone who is difficult to deal with. What we DO see, however, is a manager who is utterly unaware of their basic obligations to their employees.

      1. Batty Twerp*

        Oh, Jane is a bad fit all right. A *good* fit would have been Cinderella or any other fictional character willing to work for no pay, and bend over backwards in deference to OPs ultimate authority.

        (Does this need the sarcasm flag? I hope not)

    3. JelloStapler*

      I don’t see OP having the credibility to accurately state if Jane is actually a fit based on their perspective on how an employee should act.

  75. HailRobonia*

    A few years ago when I got promoted from hourly to salaried our executive director messed up and didn’t submit the paperwork to HR (instead he took off on vacation), which resulted in me not getting paid on time and that made my mortgage payment bounce and I got overdraft fees as well.

    Our finance administrator managed to get me paid (and the overdraft fees) 2 days later, and she apologized, but I got nothing in the way of an apology from the executive director.

  76. KHB*

    This isn’t the least of what’s wrong here, but I’m struck by how OP talks about herself, HR, and the payroll manager as Jane’s “superiors.” Just because you manage someone’s work doesn’t mean you’re better than they are. I’m seeing this attitude creep into the management structure of my own company, too, and it’s very worrying.

    1. KHB*

      Gah…tripped up by double negatives. I meant either “isn’t the worst” or “is the least” of what’s wrong here…

  77. Jennifer*

    I don’t want to contribute to a pile on on this OP, so I just want to point out that many, MANY people in this country live paycheck to paycheck, and not just very low income people. If you have your bills set up to pay automatically on your paydates, and your direct deposit doesn’t come through, this can result in multiple overdraft fees. She could have very easily needed those $500 in gift cards in addition to her pay because her paycheck may have gone into an abyss over overdraft fees if her account had a negative balance. It’s not about fiscal responsibility. It’s just reality. I don’t know if this is Jane’s situation or not, but I do know personally I stopped auto bill pay after a similar situation happened to me.

    Jane was very firm but was in no way rude. What happened was a very big deal.

  78. it's me*

    I once worked for a company that paid on the first of every month—until one month where the secretary came around and whispered that they wouldn’t be able to make payroll this month. Then she acted offended that I didn’t find this acceptable and had to resign and get another job.

    1. Bean Counter Extraordinaire*

      You mean you don’t work out of the goodness of your heart for the warm fuzzies? Pfft.

    3. SeluciaMD*

      This happened to me once too, but we were paid every two weeks and hadn’t been paid for a month. It was a small non-profit and we had a board meeting at the beginning of November and our ED was like “the financial situation is dire. The staff haven’t been paid since the beginning of October.” And the Board Chair, no lie, said “yeah, that’s a problem. Let’s put that on the agenda for the December meeting.”

      STAFF WERE IN THE ROOM. And the Board was in charge of fundraising but didn’t think figuring out how to pay staff was something they needed to concern themselves with for another month. Needless to say, I quit that job that day. Because if I’m not getting paid either way, I’d rather be home watching TV and scrolling the classified ads.

      What makes this even….funnier? More terrible? Is that the Board Chair asked me to do an exit interview with him because he really valued my opinion and wanted my input on a bunch of things. I cared about the work of the non-profit and also wanted to get some things off my chest so I agreed. He still asked me why I resigned (!) and then was truly surprised it was because the Board was OK with letting me and other staff go two months without paychecks before coming up with a plan.

  80. MsClaw*

    You failed to pay this woman for TWO MONTHS and you think she wasn’t respectful enough? And that the company isn’t responsible for her financial straights after not paying her for *two months*?!?!?!

    The fact that Jane waited so long to escalate the issue shows a frankly remarkable amount of deference to your company and and incredibly generous giving of the benefit of assuming the company would quickly make it right. And was also likely borne of a fear of making a fuss — which you’ve now fully validated since you’re having an absolutely outrageous reaction to her completely understandable complaint.

    1. Coder von Frankenstein*

      Two pay periods, to be exact; so it could be as little as two weeks or as much as two months.

      Not that it changes anything. Two missed paychecks, regardless of the pay period, is a big freakin’ deal. Jane handled it perfectly. The company’s response was appropriate. OP is way off base.

      1. MsClaw*

        Oh yeah, that’s certainly possible (that’s how it would work most places I’ve worked), but the OP says Jane has been there for two months and makes it sound like this was a recent thing. But either way, good golly the idea that ‘my uppity employee thinks she should be paid in a timely fashion’ is equally shit.

  81. Kazu*

    I’m so happy to see Alison’s response, but it still continues to shock me that people like this exist.

    At my previous org, there was a 2 (!) year period where we were consistently not paid on time (sometimes days, at most a week). When the staff approached our CEO, we were told that “if being paid a few days late puts you in financial disarray, I’d be happy to set you up with a financial planner.”

    CEO completely burned the bridge with me in that one statement. It’s very likely that you may be in the middle of burning this bridge with Jane, OP. Please listen to Alison and reframe your mindset ASAP.

    1. Kalua Malua*

      I’m Canada this was an issue for federal government workers for years. I know people who went into debt and drained their savings because they weren’t paid for months. It was a disaster. I’m glad Jane got sorted quickly and I side eye any employer who doesn’t pay their people on time.

      1. two snakes*

        Yes, likewise – people lost their houses! What a nightmare. Being paid on time and properly is so important.

  82. MuseumChick*

    OP I have a very serious question. After not being paid twice even after trying to remedy the situation what would you consider a reasonable response from Jane? Because to me, letting you know that yes, if you don’t pay me I’m not going to be able to work here anymore, seems like that exactly right reaction to me. But you don’t seem to think so. What in your mind should she have said?

    1. Me*

      Oh clearly she should have gone to the OP on her hands and knees and asked them to pretty please, if they have a minute to spare, to contact payroll, well maybe… they’re not sure because they’re new and dumb so they might be mistaken about the department but know the OP will know the right one with all their magnificent managery knowledge, any way and maybe ask them if they might spare a second to see if anything can be down about her getting paid. Although it’s not urgent or anything and of course the non entry level people have very important things to do so totally get it if they can’t take care of it until next week.

    2. Mirily*

      I’m thinking the idea is that any sort of boundary setting – “If X happens then I will do Y ” – is what offended OP. There’s an entire portion of the workforce (primarily in one generation although not ALL of that generation has these ideas) that feels no employee should ever set boundaries with their employers and that any sort of feedback is an attack.

      I guess if you spent your own career bending over backwards to prove your worth to management, it’s hard to fathom that other people don’t.

      1. SeluciaMD*

        People who behave like that often also have the perspective that a job is a “gift” given to an employee and that no matter how terribly they are treated employees should always be “grateful” for that job. It’s insanity – but still more common than any of us would like.

      2. Nea*

        Not just boundary setting, but an actual ultimatum – I think that’s what has LW talking about offense and britches and all, that a 2-month employee would dare give the company an (overdue, justified) ultimatum with a specific tight deadline.

    3. Observer*

      What in your mind should she have said?

      Based on what the OP writes I suspect what they expected to hear was “I’m sooo sorry for inconveniencing you, but could you possibly see about working on getting my pay entered into the system so I could be paid next month? I know that you are busy and I can’t dictate your schedule but I would REALLY appreciate it! Thanks SO much for taking the time to help me even though I’m just an entry level employee.”

      1. My Boss is Dumber than Yours*

        I’d bet the employee’s paycheck that LW also expected her to say that she understood the company had already financially moved on and couldn’t afford to cut the check for back pay, she would just be happy to be paid going forward, and considered the lost pay for her first month water under the bridge.

  83. Meghan*

    This employee has not been paid for AT LEAST two weeks and possibly an entire month, depending on how payroll is managed. Possibly two months? They get to be upset about that. Especially when they were told the problem was fixed the first time. Payment for ones work is important,. and non-payment for a LONG period of time is a huge deal. The letter writer really needs to do some deep self-reflection.

    1. Fran Fine*

      Especially when they were told the problem was fixed the first time.

      This was my biggest WTF outside of OP’s reaction. Clearly, the issue wasn’t fixed, so did the payroll person lie when Jane asked for confirmation that it was? Or did this person think they fixed it, but didn’t? Either way, that payroll person may need additional training or to be managed out because mistakes like this can’t happen regularly. And if it was happening to Jane, I imagine it’s happening to other people in the company as well who may or may not be speaking up.

  84. Box of Kittens*

    Does this person not understand that people work for money??? Like that is the whole, essential point of working? Holy shitake.

    1. Ell*

      They probably ding someone in the interview if they merely make minor inferences to caring about pay and benefits. Or dare to negotiate their pay or ask for a raise.

  85. FYI*

    The LW has it out for Jane as a result of this situation. That is clear:
    “I’m not comfortable having her on my team since it’s obvious she doesn’t understand she’s entry-level and not in charge. Should I wait a while before suggesting she transfer to a different department?”

    Don’t wait. Do Jane a GIGANTIC favor and transfer her now. Unless you have a serious, profound awakening, LW, you will not be able to manage this person well. She has been working for free!! — and you think she needs to be meek about that!? It’s just unreal.

    1. EEOC Counselor*

      Yes, I am very concerned about retaliation here. Alison’s reply was excellent, but I wish she had cautioned the LW to be careful that she doesn’t treat Jane differently because of this – Jane doesn’t need any more problems at this job.

    3. JustaTech*

      I’m very curious how ““I appreciate your apology, but I need you both to understand that this can’t happen again. This has put me under financial strain and I can’t continue to work for COMPANY if this isn’t corrected today.”” is Jane thinking she’s “in charge”?

      She didn’t demand the payroll person be fired. She didn’t say the payroll person was an idiot. She didn’t demand the OP’s job. She just stated facts.

      It makes me really wonder about what the OP’s work experience has been that this very reasonable, professional and moderate standing up for one’s self is “disrespectful” or “thinking she’s in charge”. Probably something very, very rigid.

      1. lol*

        Someone I knew used to work at a company where a manager lined up the employees and slapped them for drinking at work–and none of them seemed to realize that wasn’t OK! I mean yeah, don’t drink at work, but what was management’s excuse?

  86. H*

    It’s SO REASONABLE that Jane wouldn’t be able to keep working for a company THAT DOESN’T PAY HER. Surely you don’t think she accepted the job out of the goodness of her heart? I think it’s easy, once you have a little padding in your bank account, to forget how stressful it is to not have that safety net.

    But LW, you seem to think she’s pushing the envelope as an entry level employee only two months into her role, but can you look at her perspective? She’s only had a relationship with this company for two months and already they’ve failed to pay her for a huge portion of the work she’s done and given her multiple false-promises (unintentional or not) that they’ll fix it. She may have had to have difficult convos with her utility companies about delayed payments which make HER look unreliable. It’s not a great look as a tenant to tell your landlord “I promise I’ll just be late this one time, there’s been an issue with payroll at my work.” and then have to come back with the same excuse the next month.

    What reason does she have based on her first two months with your company to think this isn’t how they generally operate around payroll issues?

  87. Meep*

    You know I would say that I am very glad OP is not my manager but OP was my manager and it is how I can say OP sucks. This person was not paid for a month! A month! And you have the nerve to call them fiscally irresponsible for expecting their new job to pay them?

    Now let me tell you about my former manager and the numerous ways she has burned bridges with her entitlement:
    1. She would constantly tell how “we” (the company) but mostly “she” paid for this guy’s degree because he worked with us for ONE YEAR while he was getting his PhD. Like you, she equates labor to opportunity and pay to the generosity of the company (or her generosity). We don’t EARN that money, god forbid.
    2. She dangled a carrot in front of a non-paid intern (he was being paid in Research Credit he paid for) to do more work for us for a job so she could get extra labor outside of the scope of the project. To her, it is fine, though. He is in college. That means he is rich, right?
    3. She kept blocking a job offer for a guy out of college who had bills to pay because she wanted a bonus and giving him a full-time job would hinder it. He was working as a contractor for $20/hr for 40+ hours a week and being paid for 20 of them. But hey, again, he was in college. Out of state! His parents must have paid for it!

    If you think any of this is acceptable, you need a severe reality check.

    1. Meep*

      And another one I completely forgot: She complained how “cheap” an employee was because they didn’t want to expense report $200 worth of equipment she told them to buy. Many of our employees are straight out of college and don’t actually have credit cards or the funds.

      1. Meep*

        And another one because this is fun: She is in charge of sending out POs and making a steady cashflow. She is really bad at it. Once we didn’t have enough “liquid cash” to pay everyone (and this was the pay cycle after we fired one guy and another quit). She told me she was considering not paying me as some retroactive punishment for the other guy quitting (he left because of her but she can never take full blame) until she realized I would literally walk and report her. She then said, “I guess I am not being paid!” Fifteen minutes later she found the money. It was a total bluff to guilt me for us being down two people – one she fired because she didn’t like him and another who left because of it.

        You can probably tell, no one is fond of her.

          1. Meep*

            She is still here monkeying around and screwing people over, unfortunately. I try to keep her far, far away from employees who are like me and foolish enough to ignore the red flags. I also grew a backbone so going over her head to the appropriate people (aka our boss and payroll) usually recitfies the situation in hours rather than months.

            For example, I asked for a raise early-August and five extra vacation days. The raise was implemented on September 1st after she repeatedly tried to block it (she kept trying to get me to talk to her rather than our boss (who approved it instantly) so I would think it was being taken care of it while she stalled). I let her have none of that and met with him in person who told her to get it done ASAP. The vacation time was her last front. I hadn’t used any of my current 10-days this year so I left it until Monday while letting her “promise” me that it would be added soon (before reneging with a tired joke of “It isn’t like you are going on a European cruise). I emailed payroll at 10:35 am. It was taken care of by lunch. She was sulking about it all yesterday and this morning.

            It goes without saying but she is a very unpleasant person, if you can call her that.

            1. Candi*

              “I try to keep her far, far away from employees who are like me and foolish enough to ignore the red flags.”

              Thank you for doing that. Hopefully they’re listening when you warn them.

    2. Meep*

      And last one, about the guy she fired. She tried to “joke” with payroll that he shouldn’t be paid for his last two weeks because he “didn’t do anything”. She was serious. It was when payroll yelled at her and reported her it turned into a joke.

  88. nonee*

    Honestly, OP, aside from your terrible reaction to Jane’s “disrespect”, I also want to point out that good managers go to bat for their employees. Especially the junior ones, who may not have the experience or social capital to do so for themselves. You’ve let Jane down in multiple ways, and I have to believe that your failure here is reflected in your management of your team as a whole.

  89. Nanani*

    LW, please step on ALL the legos. Corners up.

    When you’re done doing that, please consider that not paying people on time is super duper extremely illegal. YOU need to be grateful Jane didn’t report your entire company and lawyer up the second her pay didnt appear that second time.
    Once is a mistakes, twice is grounds to take action.

    Pay your employees.

  90. HelenB*

    Some people really have this mindset. We had a supervisor in our group (let’s call her K) who thought it was disrespectful to ever disagree with anyone in management in the company.

    A manager from another group kept coming to our area during lunch and asking one of our employees to do something for him, and because she was a people pleaser, she’d put down her food and do the work for him.

    Once, he hunted her down to a break room and another of our employees asked him if it could wait so that our person could actually get her lunch break.

    I found out about this because K was fuming in a staff meeting that our employee dared to call out a manager on bad behaviour. Saying anything to someone in management is disrespect! I wish I had been in a better place mentally so that I could have better defended our people against her and this other manager.

    1. Essentially Cheesy*

      A former boss of mine actually did this with a former admin, to the point that she had a horrible meltdown after he interrupted her legitimate lunch breaks one too many times. The admin was fired unfortunately because the boss was coddled for years and years and years. I don’t know how he got away with the things that he did.

  91. Lady_Lessa*

    Sounds like Jane did the right thing the right way. First talking to the person who made the error, and when it wasn’t fixed, escalated.

    I can appreciate the problem, because it happened to me recently. My employer was bought by a large company, and we are now on their payroll system. To make sure that there were no errors, our first check was a live check, while they made sure that the automatic deposit was working properly. Took several tries to get the right numbers into the system for mine.

    What I don’t understand is why they didn’t do a normal check for Jane, as soon as she discovered the problem and it was verified?

    I hope that the LW transfers Jane, both will be better off, especially Jane.

  92. Bex*

    As a payroll admin, I just want to add that my company pretty much falls all over itself to cut checks and take care of employees whose direct deposits don’t go through even when it’s not our fault! Sometimes it’s a bank error, sometimes it’s the employee who mistyped the account info in our self-service portal, and of course, sometimes it is our mistake. Many employees are willing to wait until the next payday (ours are weekly, plus we are a second/supplemental income for many), but if they ask for a check, we cut a check! Even when that means a special trip to the office for a few people who are all still working remotely! People work for money, we agree to accept their services in exchange for money, money is how people pay for things they need to survive – this is a no-brainer.

    Have I ever been annoyed at someone who put their own information in incorrectly and then addressed me rudely and blamed me when they didn’t get paid? Sure! Have I ever considered my annoyance relevant to whether I should get them paid or not? Nope!

    1. LilPinkSock*

      Right. My old company had a payroll snafu one week and my direct deposit was only half what it should have been. I sent an email and 30 minutes later (small company!) had a check in my hand. Don’t mess with people’s money.

    2. Bex*

      Also, I don’t know if this is universal, but we get notifications when direct deposits we’ve sent out get bounced back! Often, employees find out about the issue from us rather than the other way around. Why did OP’s company let this require so much work and follow-up on Jane’s part??

  93. logicbutton*

    From Jane’s perspective, it’s not only that her money was missing (although that is extremely bad on its own), it was also that she had to go to a bunch of extra effort to hunt it down, which she never should have had to do in the first place. Even if this is fixed going forward, it could be years before she’ll be able to face payday without wondering if she’s going to have to deal with it again.

  94. whatchamacallit*

    My high school/college break retail job we got paid once a month and it became a thing that paychecks were not-infrequently late. Direct deposit was not an option either. By college I was technically a store manager and our paychecks were late (again) and the owner told me when I could come it to finally pick it up. Showed up. Went to the drawer paychecks were kept in. Checks weren’t signed, owner says “sorry I haven’t done them yet!” I made a very exasperated face, which customers could see through the office window, probably. Owner later told one of the employees that my reaction was “so unprofessional.” I never said anything, especially since it wasn’t something said to me directly so there was nothing to respond to, to but my thoughts were know what’s unprofessional? PAYING YOUR EMPLOYEES LATE. As far as I’m concerned, my professionalism does not extend to a time you have not paid me.

  95. Jackie Techila*

    The talking point of booostraping is so perverted in this case that is the employee responsibility to “be fiscally savy” about their company missing their payment not once, but twice.

    So we’re beyond the “entry level jobs shouldn’t be for you to live on, that’s for teenagers” and into “entry level jobs should not cover your bills at all and your saving should be more than enough for months”.

      1. Disabled trans lesbian*

        Even the Merchant’s Guild knows that not paying your employees will end your business!

  97. CommanderBanana*

    For Jane’s sake, I hope she ends up with a different director, and I hope the rest of your direct reports do too. Personally I think everyone would be better off if you were no longer in a supervisory role.

  98. StartupMaven*

    I get frustrated when letter writers basically say, “my employee is awesome but I don’t want them to think their awesome.”

  100. Twenty Points for the Copier*

    In an attempt to be kind to the OP, I think sometimes people have this attitude that providing a job is a favor to the employee and they should be grateful.

    In reality, work is an economic relationship. Jane is providing a service of value to the employer and in return she gets a paycheck. She is not working for you out of the goodness of her heart – she is doing it to get paid and if she’s not getting paid, she is going to go somewhere else. It is one thing to hold firm and tell you that she will quit if she is asked to answer the phone or file the TPS reports. It is another entirely to say that she will no longer work if she is not getting paid. That’s the entire reason she’s working for you and without it, she might as well sit at home (or, more likely, go get another job that won’t mess up her paycheck).

  102. The Gnome*

    …is it bad that I kind of want OP to come to the comments to try and justify themselves just to see what happens?

    Because I kinda really want to see what they pull from their hinder to try and justify this.

  104. Observer*

    You are wrong on all counts.

    You are wrong as a human being – finding yourself in financial hardship after not being paid for TWO WHOLE PAY PERIODS is NOT a sign of irresponsibility. What IS a sign of irresponsibility is claiming that it’s not a big deal because “people make mistakes” and not actually FIXING or reporting the problem even though the employee had reported it. That is not on you, but it’s astounding that you brush that off as a minor issue!

    You are wrong as a supervisor. It’s NOT disrespectful to expect that your pay is paid to you ON TIME. It *IS* utterly and completely disrespectful of you to think that the company actually has a choice in when and IF to pay an employee. To think that employee can only humbly request the pay that they are legally and morally entitled to because they are just “entry level” is is just outrageous. If you are seeing a lack of respect from your staff, perhaps it’s because they see that you are not someone that they should respect or trust.

    You are also wrong legally. Your company is LEGALLY REQUIRED to pay on time. The fact that payroll messed up once is already a major potential issue for your company. The fact that your employee REPORTED THE PROBLEM and then was AGAIN not paid could open your company to major legal repercussions. The company had no choice, really, but to cut that check THAT DAY. Because they were on legal thin ice. They MIGHT have been able to get away with making her wait for the current payroll. But the other pay? No.

    By the way, you say “Neither payroll nor I knew anything about it until today.” That is NOT true! The employee DID let payroll know! She even had emails to prove it.

    I’ll point out that this makes your response even more reprehensible – you complain that she had the temerity to complain strongly directly to management, yet you claim that by not directly approaching management she did not do her due diligence in reporting it. In other words, there is no proper way for her to handle it that actually makes it the responsibility of the company.

    Your HR sounds like they are competent. Go ahead and tell them how terrible your employee was for having the temerity to demand her pay and to demand that the problem with payroll be fixed. Because I hope that will make them give a look at your behavior over all. I’d be willing to be that they will find a lot to be concerned about.

  105. YL*

    Jane was in the right. I’m amazed but not surprised by OP. A lot of people are ignorant about how a lot of workers live paycheck to paycheck. You could be a cashier or an engineer in Silicon Valley. Inflation has gone up faster than paychecks. Cost of living is also high. Let’s not forget how college tuition is so expensive even for the local university.

  106. pcake*

    Wow. Just wow.

    People wonder why so many lower-paid employees are leaving jobs. It’s managers like this one. There is only ONE reason to work a job for most people – to make money. Jane didn’t get her money. At an entry level job, there is no way to budget – one generally makes barely subsistence or actually below the subsistence money they need to live on.

    And even if Jane has a huge trust fund, that’s not the point. She did work which she was supposed to be paid for. The first two times she was supposed to be paid, she wasn’t. That would give most people concerns about whether they’ll get paid in the future.

    Good thing HR grasps real life and courtesy.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Angry managers: “Nobody wants to work anymore!!!”

      Well certainly not if you don’t pay them….

      2. JelloStapler*

        “Nobody wants to [work their butts off for nothing in return and my superiority complex] anymore!”

        1. The Rural Juror*

          I’m in my mid 30s and I still use that phrase from time to time. Maybe it’s because I’m in Texas…

      3. L.H. Puttgrass*

        Yes. My dear long-departed grandmother loved it, rest her soul.

        I can’t recall anyone my age having used it unironically, and I’m spitting distance of retirement age.

        1. HoHumDrum*

          This is funny because I think of this as a normal, current phrase and I’m 30, but I was also one of those kids who was friends with her grandma so maybe I’m just a weirdo, haha.

        2. kittymommy*

          I actually use it all the time. I wonder if it may be more popular regionally. I’m in the southern US and it’s quite common.

          1. L.H. Puttgrass*

            My grandmother was a southerner and I haven’t lived anywhere near the south in decades, so that could be why I haven’t heard it since forever.

            But it’s also a phrase that tends to be applied to misbehaving children. That the LW would apply it to an employee says something about the level of respect they have for the people who work for them.

            1. Eeyore's Missing Tail*

              That’s what got my attention. The last time I heard that was when my brothers and I (all in our early-mid 30s) where still in elementary school. Who uses this for an adult?

            2. Michelle*

              I’m 40 and from Texas, and I don’t think I’ve heard anyone younger than my grandparents ever say “britches.” Of course, I do live in a big city.

              Personally, I’m trying to bring back “Good Lord willing and the creek don’t rise” — I live in a flood zone next to a creek, so I think it’s both appropriate and hilarious — but sadly it hasn’t caught on.

          2. Mona-Lisa Saperstein*

            I am from the South and live in the South now, and I too use this phrase fairly often. It must be regional.

            1. banoffee pie*

              I don’t like any of those phrases about people being above themselves. I think they’re often (not always) said by the person who is actually the most arrogant one in the room. The one who expects everyone else to defer to them. I think the most commonly used one where I live is ‘up themsleves’ e.g. ‘he’s really up himself’. It isn’t just as obnoxious a ‘big for your britches’ at least.

        5. Venomous Voice*

          I’m hoping LW is close to retirement for the sake of their direct reports, unless they are willing to learn from this.

        6. Temperance*

          My Boomer relatives use it, and they have similar attitudes to OP about anyone younger advocating for themselves, especially if that person is female.

      4. CeeKee*

        It’s well-known (if not especially common anymore) but I’ve never heard it applied by an adult to another adult.

      5. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        But … if she’s too big for her britches, then wouldn’t she have SMALL britches and not BIG ones? Or is there more insinuation there that I missed in all the breathtaking condescension?

      6. Clisby*

        That’s a common saying, but that’s different from saying someone “has big britches.” If you’re “too big for your britches” obviously your britches aren’t big enough.

    2. Girl Alex PR*

      Yes! This jumped out at me as well. The entire letter is so insulting and out of touch with professional, societal norms.

      1. Chocolate Teapot*

        I’ve heard “Too big for their boots” but to be honest I am finding it difficult to comprehend the “people make mistakes” attitude.

        Presumably it wouldn’t be alright if the OP’s pay was late.

        1. Observer*

          Really. ESPECIALLY in this context. Asking to have a significant error fixed is bad enough to warrant a transfer but REPEATEDLY failing to get someone’s payroll entered is “people make mistakes”!?

          This is so bizarre that it almost feels like a troll.

          1. Momma Bear*

            It makes one wonder what else OP doesn’t like about Jane (does OP feel threatened by Jane in some way) and what the relationship is with the Payroll person that warrants this disconnect.

        2. Que Syrah Syrah*

          Ah, but see, that’s DIFFERENT, because OP is a MANAGER and NOT entry level and IS “in charge.” It’s only a problem when superiors get inconvenienced. Entry levels need to suck it up and not make waves.

          …sadly, I’m pretty sure this is what OP likely thinks. :(

      2. Not Tom, Just Petty*

        This. I understand that the dictionary includes a secondary usage of “superior” as a noun.
        But a good manager does not. It’s an adjective to describe a position, not a birthright.

    3. Software Dev*

      This is one of those letters I have trouble believing is real. Jane is so obviously right and the LW so obviously wrong that it seems like parody.

      At the same time, some people…

      2. Eldritch Office Worker*

        Oh I absolutely believe this is real. I can name a handful of people off the top of my head from various jobs who I know would respond exactly like this, some in HR.

        1. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

          Oh yeah. Further down I relate when this happened to me and got a totally ‘well, maybe you should have savings’ response from my employer of the time.

            1. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

              I was a much younger Keymaster then but I think I may have said something about all my pay going on mortgage/bills to have a saving. As I recall the HR person replied about how people ‘my age’ (under 25) spend all our money on booze and fashion.

              As a recovered alcoholic that caused about 30% of the sobbing at home I did.

          3. Michelle*

            I may have mentioned this here before, but my (adult, living on her own) daughter’s boss suggested she just not spend any money from her paychecks and save it all up to buy a car so that she could be called into work on short notice rather than taking the bus and needing at least an hour’s notice to come in. She just sort of scoffed when my daughter asked if boss was suggesting she not *pay rent or buy food* in order to make things more convenient for the company.

        3. Not Tom, Just Petty*

          Reminds me of a comment someone made about a resume where the woman wrote, “80% success rate challenging laid off staff unemployment claims.”
          And I’m adding this simply because it is another case of someone fighting a worker’s right to money they’ve earned.
          So yeah, there’s a group out there.

        4. CBB*

          People like LW exist, but it is remarkable that such a person could write a letter in which they so clearly describe their failings in a way that’s plainly obvious to everyone but themselves.

          Surely LW must have read what they wrote and realized they ticked every box on the Bad Boss Checklist?

          1. Candi*

            They cut off the “Bad Boss” from the top of the list and tape on “Awesome Manager” instead.

      3. LadyJ*

        Well, when I worked at a non-profit I was told that very thing when there was an error on my paycheck. I was being too bossy. This was a well-known agency known for its use of military insignia and hierarchy

      4. atru*

        It’s one of those where the LW is so wrong that you have to wonder if it’s Jane writing about the situation from her perspective. It’s so hard to believe that the LW would admit to any of this.

        1. KayDeeAye*

          But…the situation is absolutely true-to-life, so in the end, it doesn’t matter who wrote in. There genuinely are employers who feel this way, and there are certainly employees in this situation, so Alison’s advice is useful no matter who wrote the letter that generated it.

      5. Darsynia*

        It feels particularly tone-deaf based on previous letters, but I’m wondering if this LW did a search of advice columns or spoke to a colleague who recommended Alison (if so I dearly hope it was someone who wanted this advice to be the result, because I do hope this LW can understand the flaws in their thinking here and adjust). As a long-time reader of certain subreddits where people can post asking for guidance, there’s a percentage of them who have just found the sub and ask a question without knowing the historic demeanor of the respondents, we’ll say.

        1. Candi*

          “CEO’s wife ruined my job prospects” admitted, in the update I think, that he just Googled and sent in the letter without really reading any of the site -or, apparently the page with the “may be published” in clear, easily read type.

          I suspect the ghosting boyfriend, who walked out on his girlfriend of 3 years and then 10 years after that she became his boss, may have done the same thing.

    5. tinybutfierce*

      Someone in this letter is certainly acting too big for their britches, but it’s definitely not Jane.

      2. Venomous Voice*

        Or maybe galavanting around spending foolishly. (To be fair, I’m not yet 50 and have been using galavanting liberally since my Grunge days…)

    7. Deanna Troi*

      We have a very spoiled, entitled dog who is not thankful to be rescued, thank you very much (our other two dogs are extremely appreciative). We always tell her that she is too big for her britches – it is a common saying where I live.

    8. Mental Lentil*

      I’m just sitting here in my pantaloons wondering what all the kerfuffle is about.

      Then again, I may be high on my own farts.

  108. Grizabella the Glamour Cat*

    Yes, seriously. It’s really inappropriate, not to mention ENTIRELY unnecessary to make tasteless jokes based on ageist slurs.

    Would anyone who reads this blog enough to know the values Alison espouses make a blatantly racist joke in one of these comments? A homophobic one? An ableist or sexist one? I think not, unless they’re deliberately trolling. That anyoe who comes here would think ageism is AOK is very disappointing to me.

  110. Me*

    OP – what the what? Jane handled this perfectly! Literally perfect. She tried to get it corrected, she documented her exchanges, she was firm and clear.

    “I’m sorry” is not an adequate response to we didn’t pay you a whole lot and the error wasn’t fixed when it should have been. Her response was *chef’s kiss*. Professional and firm.

    Jane is the kind of employee you want handling problems. She does it well. The fact that HR also said – no she was right in response to your out of line and unnecessary apology, and you still don’t get it is banannas.

    Please revisit whatever this attitude you have that new employees should be groveling and playing kiss a$$ because it belongs in a different century.

    As far as moving Jane to another team…she shouldn’t be punished but frankly not having you as a manager might not be the worst thing in the world for her career.

    1. learnedthehardway*

      Totally agree – Jane was extremely professional about how she handled the situation. She did everything right. And no, she’s not out of line at all for pointing out that she can’t/won’t work for a company that doesn’t meet its obligations to her. Franky, it needed to be said, since the company had screwed up her pay 3 times.

  111. JelloStapler*

    I am as non-confrontational as they come but if I had not been paid twice and it seemed they could not get their act together, I would have been livid. I actually thought her email was a great combination of firm yet professional.

    Some people live paycheck to paycheck, and who knows if she had just come off of a long period of unemployment.

  112. Random MN CPA*

    This just feels like another example of employers not understanding they can’t treat employees as disposable anymore. There aren’t enough employees for a lot of roles that need to be filled. And employers are so out of touch and used to being able to take advantage of employees, either by not paying a living wage, wage theft by requesting staff work off the clock, or just flat out expecting employees to put up with abusive behavior.

    I hope this employee runs for the hills ASAP because red flags are flying high here with a boss that requires that the employee essentially work for free without complaint and a payroll department that doesn’t prioritize paying employees until they go to the director of HR.

    1. Jules the 3rd*

      Time and the Atlantic have current articles on the “Great Resignation”. OP might want to make sure their news reader’s got the right date – 2021, not 1921.

  113. tinybutfierce*

    This reminds me very much of a similar situation from my last toxic job I escaped a few years ago. One of my employees had to go back and forth with HR over multiple pay periods to try and correct an issue with their paycheck being less than it should (and we were already being paid barely above minimum wage). After being told it was finally corrected, next paycheck happened and of course it was still short, the employee immediately called HR (our corporate HQ was in a different city) and was understandably not pleased. HR finally dealt with it by cutting them a check that day, and my employee was just happy to finally get it resolved; the next time I spoke with HR, they expressed THEIR frustration at the employee’s frustration, because “it’s not like it was a lot of money!” I just remember being gobsmacked at the time that they could be so cavalier about someone else’s livelihood (especially given they knew how laughably little we were paid).

    1. EvilQueenRegina*

      It makes me think of something that happened to a temp in a previous job – this was about 2006 so probably fuzzy on the details, but from what I remember she had faxed her timesheet to the agency, but there was some problem with the agency’s fax machine and it meant they didn’t get it. The agency were aware that their machine had this fault and wasn’t receiving faxes, but hadn’t let her know what happened so she could get it to them another way. and it ended up with her becoming overdrawn. From what I remember she wasn’t satisfied with the way the agency branch handled it and it was escalated as a complaint to head office.

  114. What Angelica Said*

    Nooooooo… I’m really, really concerned that the LW doesn’t have an inkling of why this is problematic on so many levels. They might need to take a break from “managing” while they learn labor laws and compassion.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Right? Plenty of extremely responsible people have gone through their savings.

      (Not that savings is an indicator of responsibility)

    2. Momma Bear*

      Exactly. A lot of people have been out of work, sick/high medical bills, or dealing with increased costs in general. Jane doesn’t need to have been spending like crazy to have financial concerns.

  116. Vlad, the Merry Impaler*

    Hey, OP, what would have been your reaction if Jane was a, say, supplier and not an employee? A supplier that your AP dept just cut out from paying not one, but two succesive invoices? Would that supplier have been entitled to have a stern attitude?

    Yup, that’s right: Jane is, in this situation, just like a supplier. She supplies work – and a quality one by your own admission. I don’t think right now you *deserve* Jane in your team – you’d have to grow a lot, you yourself as a manager, to deserve this particular employee.

    And, btw: say “Jane” was “John” and did the exact same things. Would it have mattered the same?

    Nope, I didn’t think so either.

    1. Mental Lentil*

      This analysis is spot on. All employees are suppliers, and they supply you labor you can’t do yourself. (Or won’t.)

    2. Grizabella the Glamour Cat*

      “I don’t think right now you *deserve* Jane in your team – you’d have to grow a lot, you yourself as a manager, to deserve this particular employee.”

      They’d have to grow a lot, all right. Not just as a manager, as a HUMAN.

      I can’t believe how much I’m commenting on this letter. It seems to have really touched a nerve, with a lot of us!

    3. JelloStapler*

      I’m pretty sure OP would have little to no issues with it were a “John”- would actually probably be praising him for his assertiveness and ambition!

  117. WantonSeedStitch*

    This was one of those letters where as soon as I read the title of the post, I went, “oooohhhhh boy.”

    I don’t usually like to speculate on the age of the letter writer or attribute viewpoints to a person’s age, but the OP’s comment that they’re “getting tired of the respect gap [they’re] seeing with younger staff” is a pretty clear indicator that age IS a factor here. OP, you have to understand that in this day and age, people are getting tired of being treated as disposable cogs in the company machine, and are standing up for their rights. Rights, not wants. Prompt pay for work done is a RIGHT. The current employment climate is showing this very clearly. You have to understand that the current job market strongly favors job seekers, so if you want to retain your employees, you need to treat THEM with some respect.

    1. Le Sigh*

      Yes, that really stuck out to me in a letter full of WTFs. That comments suggests to me LW views this as a consistent problem with younger staff and I’d be really curious to know what they lump into that category. Refusing to work more than the agreed-upon, paid hours and not pulling late nights off the clock? Pushing for more equitable hiring and pay? Advocating for better benefits/healthcare?

      Sure, some new employees don’t fully realize what’s appropriate in the workplace and pushback on things that are strange. It happens. But there are a loooot of employers who consider advocating for basic, equitable treatment and pay and pushing back on old-school norms so you “earn your dues” to be disrespectful or ungrateful and frankly, screw them.

  120. Bennet*

    This manager sounds like someone who worked for my old company. We were basically required (as in, not contracted but would look so bad for you not to that it might as well be) to work massive amounts of overtime at a specific point in the year, for two months. First month, I worked every hour I could because I really needed the money. Payday came, no overtime. I couldn’t believe it. Turned out my manager’s email confirming the hours had gone in two minutes after deadline, and though Payroll had been there, they didn’t process it on purpose, to teach the manager a lesson. So none of the people on my team got their overtime.

    The manager was mortified and actually offered to pay us out of his own pocket, but we wouldn’t let him. I was told by the payroll manager that my ‘attitude toward not being paid overtime was unacceptable, that there was nothing they could do outside of the normal pay run (lie) and I shouldn’t count on overtime pay’. It was only when I asked if they’d heard of ‘unlawful deduction of wages’ that suddenly it became possible to write a cheque.

    1. Observer*

      This reminds me of the mess after Sandy when National Grid failed to pay overtime to a bunch of field staff who were working insane hours (and many were even sleeping in their trucks because they didn’t have time to go home) in the immediate aftermath of the storm. Their payroll system was designed to not allow more than 40 hours per week and no one bothered to do anything about it till the workers both went to the press and sued.

      1. Bennet*

        Ugh, that’s awful. I’m glad they sued. 40 hours per week doesn’t allow for payment of ANY overtime, and it should have been caught before that happened.

        I had a little fun at our company a while after, though. Worked overtime again and they accidentally paid me for it twice, and then said “So we’ll give you the bank details so you can pay it back straight away”.

        “Sorry. I can’t process anything outside the normal pay run. It’ll have to come off my pay next month.”

        That particular company loved to make it seem like they were a ‘great place to work’. It wasn’t until I finally went somewhere else that I realised how bad they were. Doubled my salary within two years, and it’s not because my new company overpays – they just pay fairly.

        1. Candi*

          Was that a direct deposit? They’re pretty stupid if they didn’t know that those can be clawed back before a (variable) deadline.

    2. WantonSeedStitch*

      Yeah, I’m fortunate to work in a place (a nonprofit organization) whose mission and work I support and admire, but even so…I’m an employee, not a volunteer. If they didn’t pay me, I wouldn’t be here.

      1. Chocolate Teapot*

        “What do you like most about your job?”

        “Getting paid”

        This was a question asked at one of those gushing off-site Lets-all-be-chums-together activities. It was one of those events packed full of jargon, and by the end of it, I felt I could have achieved far more by not going.

  122. Mr. Cajun2core*

    I can’t add anything. I just came to support what everyone else is saying. I have a strong feeling though that the OP still won’t see where they went wrong.

  123. Salad Daisy*

    This happened to me once, many years ago, before computers. There was another person at my company with the same first and last name but a different middle name, so we always used our middle names. Think Suzy L. Smith and Suzy Q. Smith. Payday comes and the other Suzy gets both her check and mine. I get nothing. I’m told I will have to wait until next week to get paid. Luckily we had just elected the union so I asked, nicely but loudly, if I could use their phone to call my union steward. Before I even finished dialing they were cutting me a replacement check.

    BTW as far as I know, your company is legally required to pay you within some number of days after the end of the pay period.

  124. Christmas Carol*

    Forget your credit card company, how many extra bank charges would you have to pay because insufficient funds to cover pre-arranged automatic bill payments. Would you car be repo’ed because you missed the payment, causing you to be unable to commute to work? How sympathetic would your landlord be? Or if you are buying your home, would your mortgage go into default and cause you to be foreclosed upon?

    And if I were “Jane” I would also double check my start date in regards to when my health insurance, retirement plan, etc. started covering me.

    1. Fran Fine*

      This. Payroll deductions would not have been taken out timely and Jane’s benefits could be all out of whack because of this mistake.

      1. Academic Anon*

        I had this happen to me but at the retirement company level. I had just switched jobs, but kept the same retirement company. Due to the states being 50 fiefdoms, my retirement accounts couldn’t be combined. In this case it made it easy to see that the retirement money from my new employer was not being deposited in my account. A call to HR confirmed that it wasn’t on my employer side. A call to the retirement company resulted in them discovering that they had deposited in an account for a different university, our in-state rival. Once I had told them that I had never worked at that institution (sniff, as if!), they transferred the funds and said that they would credit me for any money that would have been earned in the funds that I had selected. And it wasn’t a same name thing, since I am the only one with my name in the US.

  126. PhysicsTech*

    A bit different, but for my first few months my employer wasn’t paying the employee match on my 401k. It was difficult to catch until 3 months in when I looked at the difference, and difficult to make them understand because they had actually made 2 errors with my 401k. However, when they understood they immediately sent that money to the account AND PAID THE INTEREST THEY OWED ME.

    That’s honestly the only reason I like HR, because they were so quick to not just put in the raw amount, but to bring it up to a level where it would have been if their software hadn’t glitched.

    Moreover, that $500 is just what HR is doing here, only here it’s a bit more dire because this was the FULL paycheck.

  127. Veryanon*

    Wow. Just…wow. I don’t know many people who wouldn’t struggle if they missed one paycheck, let alone two. It would be a hardship for me, for sure. This manager is wildly out of touch. If I were the HR/Payroll manager at that company, I’d be mortified that we had made such mistakes, and would do whatever I needed to do to make it right for the employee. Jane was, if anything, remarkably restrained in her response.

  128. Celestine*

    Wow, OP really does have a warped sense of reality. But it’s not too surprising if they’re older; unfortunately, the idea that employees deserve respect is a relatively new one in the history of work. The traditional concept of management is… well, to put it bluntly, classist and racist. The idea is that those who aren’t in management are not management because they are naturally lazy and will slack off if not strictly managed; management’s job is to make sure those lazy bums (who historically were poorer and POC) actually did the work.

    And like so many outdated attitudes, this mode of management has stuck around even as the landscape and nature of work began to change.

    People who are accustomed to thinking this way can’t comprehend that employees might not *actually* be lazy and that many, if not most, employees will flourish best when given a higher level of autonomy than is traditionally acceptable.

    You can see the evidence of this mode of thought in the OP’s assertion that Jane spoke disrespectfully to “her superiors.” Management. They might think they’re only referring to a business hierarchy but there is so much history and baggage in the term “superior.”

    1. JelloStapler*

      Also seen in so many places breaking out in hives at the thought of WFH, because they do not trust their workers to manage themselves, or the managers don’t know what to do with themselves otherwise.

      1. Candi*

        Covid probably pushed WFH forward ten years by forcing the issue of let them work from home and make some money for the company, or close down completely and the company makes NO money. Then stuck-in-the-mud managers were forced to see, hey, responsible people who want to get paid work just fine from home!

  129. Czhorat*

    “Respect” to the OP seems to mean “deference”. This is related to the style of interview in which the hiring manager is perceived to have all of the power and wants the applicants need to bow, kiss the ring, whatever.

    This is the same. Even the most entry-level employee has rights to be treated with respect. That includes not being yelled at, being given the tools and support to do their job and, yes, to be paid in a timely manner.

    The “lack of respect” here seemed to mean “don’t talk back”. Jane has the right to be angry – she wasn’t paid not once but twice, despite doing everything right and following up appropriately.

    1. JustaTech*

      “You can command deference, you cannot command respect. Respect is earned.” (And when you demand deference it inhibits the earning of respect.)

      Also, nothing Jane said was disrespectful. Firm, yes. Rude, no. No one likes hearing “This can not happen again”, but you know what? That’s why it’s got to be said. To reinforce that this is a serious problem that needs to be fixed.

  130. Scmill*

    Back in the days when paychecks were on paper, my bi-weekly paycheck got bundled in to a site across the country. Payroll gave me a “we’ll get it sorted out in a week or so”. I hit the roof, called my Sr VP in the NYC office and complained. They wrote me a check on the spot in my location that day.

    You are so wrong, and I am glad I don’t work for you.

  131. GT*

    Wow! You lost me at a third paragraph. I always think we’ve heard it all and then here we are…If you can go on without being paid for your work from two months ago, you are privileged. Jane handled it perfectly. You have a gem on your team and if you don’t get it, pass her to a team that will recognize her.

  132. Maybe not*

    I really hope the letter writer will update us at some point. I would love to know how they respond to this and what they think after seeing this feedback. (And how things go with Jane.)

  133. Dwight Schrute*

    Wow OP you’re wildly out of touch with reality. My eyes just kept getting bigger and bigger as I read this. Jane handled this well, and frankly you’re the one that is not handling it well. I get paid monthly and I can’t imagine what would happen to my financial situation if wasn’t paid TWICE. It’s not disrespectful to ask a company to pay you on time.

  134. Megan R*

    Dang these youngsters and their…. ::checks notes::… expectation to be paid for mutually agreed upon work performed under a legal agreement where said work is performed for… ::checks notes again::.. mutually agreed upon compensation?

    1. nat*

      This was exactly my thought process. The OP seems to expect Jane to be fine with not being paid for work she has done? And then has to audacity to imply that she should handle her money better? Unreal.

  135. Budgie Buddy*

    OP didn’t even obfuscate Jane’s actual wording with something like “Jane cornered us and demanded aggressively that the mistake be corrected IMMEDIATELY.” At least then the comment section could speculate that Jane was over the top in some way. Rookie mistake. Instead OP (intentionally or by accident) submitted us an excellent template for how to correct a major error as an entry level employee.

    I’m not sure why, but the word “smartly” also sounds really weird to me, even though it’s a real word.

  136. Not Tom, Just Petty*

    Just adding, that I try to read the 11 AM post right as it comes up. By 11:15, there are a dozen or so comments.
    It is 11:30.
    This is comment #303.
    I think this letter hit a nerve.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Alison also teased this on Twitter yesterday so a bunch of people were waiting to jump on it.

      1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

        Oh, man. I need to follow! And I really wonder if this will set the record for the year!

  137. Belinda Blumenthal*

    I didn’t realize that the “ROLLS OF DISRESPECT” letter-writer had been promoted to management! Mazel.

  139. mreasy*

    I messed up payroll at my old job once or twice. You know what I did when the employee mentioned it? Apologized profusely, and cut them a check THAT DAY (within the hour if possible), and allowed them to go to the bank while on the clock to deposit it if they wanted to. This was a small business with low profit margins and we needed every penny and ever person-hour but there is NO OTHER ACCEPTABLE RESPONSE. I was also paid late often by my first employer (where I made under $20k/year in this millennium – in NYC!!!) and the owner made waiting to deposit a paycheck part of being a team player. My current employer paid us late one time, as the payroll coordinator had missed a cutoff due to grieving her brother who had died suddenly a week or two prior. They apologized and told us they’d make us whole for any overdrafts/etc. I’m stunned to see the OP’s attitude on this.

  140. DidIJustReadThat?*

    Umm… did I just read a letter complaining that an employee expected to be paid, wasn’t- TWICE, and the manager felt slighted when the employee laid out that, if it happens a third time, the employee said they’d leave?

    I mean, come on. The vast majority of employees cannot afford to miss a single wage, so, payroll screwed up the “contractor” part for the interview, and a full pay period too?

    Heck, aside from the legal ramifications for the company, payroll did the bare-minimum needed to make the new employee whole! There was absolutely nothing disrespectful about OP’s report of what the wronged employee said, at all. It might be somewhat dark where OP is looking different this is their attitude…

    1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

      No. You did not.
      I think it was the THIRD check…one was for a training period. So Jane drew a line at FOUR checks.
      She hadn’t received three checks and OP calls her greedy for taking emergency money.

  141. twocents*

    I’m impressed with HR plainly siding with Jane.

    When everyone’s telling you you’re wrong, LW, then I don’t know why you think Alison would swoop in to side with you. Especially about something that’s effectively: it should be totally okay to fail to pay employees.

    1. Annie*

      I would feel so much better knowing that HR had read this letter. Jane is at risk for facing retaliation.

      1. Eldritch Office Worker*

        They at least know how OP reacted, so I don’t think they’ll be shocked if that comes up later.

  142. mcfizzle*

    This happened to me many years ago, but with a credit card double-draft. Of course it was the month I’d just gotten a big bonus from work, and was going to pay off my entire $3,500 debt. This was a big deal to my 23 year old self! So… they drafted $7,000. And everything bounced. Rent, groceries, etc. When I called the credit card company, the customer service agent snidely remarked that I should’ve budgeted better. Oh man did I lose it on her. She didn’t have much of a comeback when I asked her “do you routinely keep an additional $3,500 just in case someone double drafts the amount?” Worst part was she knew the total amount before saying that to me – it’s not like it was a $50 error or something.
    Yeah, boss, you are WRONG.

    1. Umpire*

      Ooh this is the day I’d become that customer no help line person wants. This is the agent that deserves you not only lighting her up, but escalating this as far as it can go and this can happily end with her being written up or fired. How dare she. I’m so mad for you wow

      I know I’m sensitive to this because I had a banker be condescending and rude to me when I was struggling with finances after taking some unexpected medical hits. But this is worse because it was entirely on them. Such a large amount! That woman wouldn’t be so easygoing if they hit her with $3500.

  143. morelor*

    I’ve been responsible for payroll for the last 14 years, and the most awful thing one can do is screw up a pay. I try very hard not to do this, but would always offer to cut a cheque, or send an email money transfer (which i even did once on a Saturday) to correct my oversight! Number 1 rule, never mess with employees pay, never! Mistakes happen, but you do your very best to fix it ASAP.

    1. Chauncy Gardener*

      This! I’ve been in finance for decades. Payroll is the most important thing a finance team does. I loved Alison’s response. It was totally perfect and I really hope the LW takes it all to heart.

      1. JustaTech*

        Here’s how important payroll is: my in laws own a small business and for years my MIL did the books, including payroll. Then one day (the day before payday) she had a major medical emergency (she’s fine now) and she couldn’t do payroll and no one else had access to the system.

        So my FIL wrote everyone a *personal* check to make sure that they got paid. While his wife was in the hospital. (Yes, they changed the system after that.)

        You do not mess with pay. Period.

  144. PolarVortex*

    I am very much assuming OP that you are of the world where employees owe their employers for deigning to hire them on. It’s very old school thought process that even most near to retirement ages have grown out of long ago. Let me explain my thoughts as a… “millennial”.

    I have always been grateful to be employed – particularly after being unemployed in the recession in 09/10. That being said, employers oughta be equally grateful to have me. I bring something to their table otherwise they wouldn’t have hired me. Not that I’m irreplaceable – nobody should be – but quite obviously I have a skillset they need and benefit from.

    My job is not my life. It’s not my family. It is not the reason I get up in the morning nor will I crumble to the ground if the business closes down tomorrow. My mom once told me for most people there are two paths in life: a job that pays well enough that can fund your passions or a job that you’re passionate about but may not fund much else in your life. I took the former after being unemployed during said recession for multiple years and having to move back in with my parents. I want nothing more than financial stability and a job I feel challenged at – whether or not it’s something I’m passionate about. I can find my passions elsewhere. But that means I expect my job to provide said gosh darn financial stability. I’ve seen how my company is with people who don’t pay them for their services, why cannot I be the same? Your electricity company would shut off your service for not paying, your ISP would, your apartment would evict you. Why can’t an employee make the same demands? We’re being paid for a service, we deserve to be paid.

  145. Emily*

    A very diplomatic reply to the letter writer!

    How LW can think Jane is at fault for not ‘prioritising’ or ‘saving smartly’ when any employee would expect to get paid on a certain date and their employer failed to do that TWICE! Has this manager not heard that many people are two paychecks away from homelessness?

    Many people do not have savings, they live paycheck to paycheck. What an out of touch person this Manager is. Not that it is of any relevance as to how financially savvy Jane us anyway- it was not her mistake.

    Now LW wants to punish Jane by moving her to another department. Does it bother LW that a young woman is not willing to be a pushover and instead advocates for herself?

    1. Em*

      Like, seriously. Modern economy employees are kind enough to not require cash in hand at quitting time every day, but our salaries are ours second by second as we work.

      What does the LW expect the employee to do? Not spend any of the money she has ALREADY earned AND not complain until the company dines to cough it up? Guess she’s just supposed to live on sunlight and crossed fingers. I hear gratitude for a having a job really keeps the rain off.

  147. I should really pick a name*

    You say that you’re tired of the respect gap.

    What do you feel is the appropriate response when you haven’t been paid, you have been told the situation has been resolved, and you weren’t paid again?

    Firmness is not disrespect. It is expressing that a major error has been made and making sure that it’s understood that the situation is very serious.
    You mention that this was the first that payroll had heard of this situation.
    That made it even more important for Jane to express how serious this situation was. Someone hearing about this the first time might not consider the impact of how long it’s been going on.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Also I assume they mean “the head of payroll” because Payroll absolutely knew before this meeting.

  148. Ethyl*

    Right? LW seems to think it’s weird and unreasonable that someone’s budget has an “income” column? Sure, lots of people probably need more savings, but arranging your budget around the paycheck you are legally supposed to be getting isn’t exactly this unheard of millennial invention!

    2. Candi*

      I started snickering at “unheard of millennial invention”. Lots of awesome saying coming out of the commentators today!

      I’m not sure if expecting a new kid to the professional world to have savings to cover derelict pay for months, or expecting anyone after months of pandemic to have enough savings left to cover derelict pay for months, is worse.

  149. MistOrMister*

    “Her personal finances or debts are not the company’s responsibility. “…well OP, when the company doesn’t pay someone 3 times in a row (you say she didn’t get paid twice, but she also wasnt paid for the tasks she did during the interview stage), then yes it is the company’s responsibility. Had Jane been paid on time and complained she couldn’t pay her bills that would be different. But sue agreed to work for money and the company is not getting the money to her. How is she supposed to pay when she has no money coming from what one will asume is her only source or income? The company absolutely had a requirement to make her whole and quite frankly giving her extra so she could immediately pay her bills (which it is reasonable to believe are overdue since she missed so many checks!) is just good business. If this happened to me and I was cut a check and allowed to go to the bank, fine. But if I was also given some extra compensation to handle immediate issues, I would feel much better about the situation. I would be more inclined to believe steps wpuld be taken not to let it happen again and I would be grateful that the company was trying to help dig me out the hole they forced me into in the first place.

    And I wonder if you would have this problem with Jane if she hadn’t done something you felt was inappropriate for an entry level person to do (which, what she did was absolutely not inappropriate at all). If she had just pointed out the problem without the statement about she can’t wotk for free, would you still begrudge her those gift cards? I suspect not and I suspect this is more about a power trip than anything Jane said or did.

  150. Annie*

    I keep getting caught up on this: “Neither payroll nor I knew anything about it until today.”

    OP wrote this as though it’s an excuse or a reason for what happened to Jane. But it’s actually a symptom of the problem: Jane *was* working with someone in payroll. That the leader or manager of that team didn’t know about it is not an excuse, but is the problem itself. In a functional organization, an issue with someone not getting paid should not have been a secret between the affected employee and her point of contact.

    1. Chauncy Gardener*

      And their payroll department clearly has some internal control issues since this didn’t get caught by them first! Saying this as a finance manager

    2. rl09*

      Exactly. If the payroll team manager truly didn’t know about it until now, it sounds like someone on that team made a mistake and tried to hide it from their boss.

      1. Fran Fine*

        Bingo. Especially since that payroll rep told Jane via email the problem was fixed, and then Jane didn’t get paid AGAIN.

    3. Czhorat*

      If they missed the eams employee’s pay TWICE then someone SHOULD have checked it on payday. That’s the kind of thing that needs to have eyes on it; Jane’s response might have been slightly different if the payroll manager had come proactively to her with a manually cut check and said “we missed this again. Here’s your check with our sincerest apology”.

      Jane spoke up because the company was STILL messing up.

    4. Observer*

      Yes. How could someone not have been paid for 2 months and no one but a low level employee knew about it?

  151. BJP*

    We know “Jane” is a woman, but based on OP’s vitriolic reaction I’m really wondering if “Jane” is a woman of color in particular!

    5. Daffodilly*

      I had the same thought. I’ve heard “too big for their britches” exactly twice in the workplace. Both were in racist contexts. So hearing it in this letter definitely raised that suspicion here.

  152. Kate R*

    “ why is our company responsible for her fiscal irresponsibility”

    She wasn’t fiscally irresponsible. Your company was. She wasn’t paid TWICE in the TWO MONTHS she’s been there. Of course, she would be reconsidering whether to continue working for a company where she hasn’t been paid consistently since she started. Rent and bills don’t wait because your paycheck didn’t come. I’m happy to see an entry-level employee advocating for herself since so often we see this stuff warping their workplace norms.

  153. CatPerson*

    “I’m also uncomfortable because why is our company responsible for her fiscal irresponsibility? ”

    So, um, needing to be paid on payday counts as fiscal irresponsibility? You’re one of the lucky ones, aren’t you. What a horrible thing to say.

  154. ragazza*

    Not to mention that she potentially missed out on interest from any investments she might have put the money into or had to pay an interest fee on a credit card. That $500 in gift cards was the least they could do for that and the time and effort she spent trying to get payroll to fix the situation.

    1. Neosmom*

      And let’s not forget bank overdraft fees applied every instance during that two month period. I am guessing the $500 gift card did not make Jane whole.

  157. LurkMonster*

    Oh wow. I almost never comment, but I’m a looong time lurker.

    LW’s new, very good, low maintenance employee didn’t GET PAID and they’re…. Upset that she professionally advocated for herself with the appropriate level of concern and boundary setting?!

    Allison is absolutely right, this person needs to reconsider being in charge of other people and their work.

    Companies NEED employees. They aren’t hiring out of the goodness of their heart, just like workers aren’t there as a nice thing to do. This is business, both parties need to do their part- and in this case it looks like only one is.

    Lucky for this team member, they are already proving competent to even a power hungry, not likely ever satisfied, manager… they’ll have PLENTY of options elsewhere when they very quickly outgrow this role.

  158. bluephone*

    I know we’re supposed to take LWs at their word and “be kind” (which is honestly becoming as mis-used as “gaslighting” and “trigger warning”) but this is a troll, right? Like, this is some rando whose COVID lockdown boredom broke their brain and instead of like, developing useful hobbies and skills 16 months into the pandemic, they’re replacing concerts and the gym with trolling management blogs, right???
    I may be biased because several jobs ago, a payroll error left me about 60 percent short in my paycheck, shortly before Christmas. HR was weird about it when I brought it up, basically telling me to not make a big deal about it or run it up the chain. Except I had already asked my boss because duh and he went right to the head of Finances because this job was partially grant-funded and hey, did something happen to his grant that he should maybe be aware of???? The finances guy was rightly shocked and apologetic and vowed to have it straightened out immediately. He also offered to have the company reimburse me for any late fees, overdrafts, etc (thankfully not needed). I think that’s honestly how it should be done? So what is LW’s damage here?? (and yes this was an entry-level role. In fact it was–GASP–an admin assistant role!)

    LW, please don’t try to play this as a “these young Millennials* don’t know good manners!!” thing because I’m pretty sure that every over-40 YO person I know would be equally as upset as Jane, if not more so (especially if they have that well of experience to make them say, “I have been working for X years, I do not need this drama”). The younger/earlier you are in your career, the more likely you are to put up with nonsense like this either because you don’t realize you have rights or you’re too worried about career fallout to push back (again, just speaking from my own experience with payroll nonsense that, if I encountered it now in my late 30s/at this stage in my career, I would not tolerate for one minute).

    *I know the letter didn’t specify Millennials (who are now pushing 40–like, if they were in college right before or right when 9/11 happened, then you can’t exactly call them “young whippersnappers” and tell them to get off your lawn anymore), but I think LW fell into the trap of “person 5-15 years younger than me=those dam entitled Millennials with their participation trophies* and their snowflake spaces**!!!

    *Actual millennial here: WE didn’t come up with those participation trophies, by the way, because we were like 5 years old, duh. That was allllllllll our Baby Boomer teachers and parents (not my parents, because they were sane). So I think that stereotype needs to die.
    **More of a Gen Z thing, by the way? Maaaaybe “younger Millennial” if you want to split hairs.

    TLDR: please let this be a not-that-good troll post, Jane did nothing wrong (and was probably way more chill about it than most people would be given that it happened *more than once*), LW needs a serious attitude adjustment if this is a real letter. Do not screw with people’s money, ever. For god’s sake, that should be the first commandment, above all others.

    1. Big Britches*

      Yeah, if anyone needs lessons in good manners/respect/compassion, It’s YOU, letter writer. YOU.

      How dare you even bring up how Jane budgets or saves? That is simply NOT RELEVANT (though you’re doing a great job pretending her personal business is YOUR business).

      Doesn’t matter how old someone is, how big their bank accoutn or the title on the door. PEOPLE MUST BE PAID ON TIME. Okay, Boomer?

    2. alicia.x.*

      i read about someone who was doing this. they were an author and during the pandemic they were supposed to be writing a follow up book to their first pretty successful novel, but something about the combination of the pressure and pandemic led them to basically creating factual scenarios asking for advice from dear-prudie type blogs that bordered on absurd but were just believable to get published. i’m gonna see if i can find that article. it was wild.

  159. El l*

    Can we get a new award? Rather than just “Worst Manager of the Year,” how about “Worst Manager of the Year…Who’s Also an OP.” Because this is worse than the graduation boss. Worse than the “Warehouse Brown Nose” boss (aka Laura vs Miranda).

    Paying your employees – in full, on time, without fail – is literally the bare minimum. If you can’t do that, nothing else matters. Motivation, strategy, all those things we prize in business, they mean nothing if you can’t pay staff properly.

    No wonder the younger generation won’t put up with this attitude. It’s about time.

    2. Candi*

      Elsewhere on the page, someone called Laura vs Miranda the “Red Flag Factory”.

      I think part of the younger generation’s strength is it’s much easier for them to know they’re not alone. They may be the only ones in their class or school, but the net tells them there’s hundreds, thousands, of people like them out there.

  160. Rey*

    When I found out that a student employee misentered their timesheet info, so didn’t get paid for a portion of that period, I found out the process to request an extra deposit instead of waiting for the next period, confirmed with my boss that he would OK that request, and then told the employee when they should expect the deposit to happen. Employees *come *to *work *to *be *paid. Needing money to pay bills is not a sin. Again for the people in the back: the US capitalist system has assigned a specific dollar amount to an employee’s time, so don’t *clutch your pearls in shock* when employees expect to be paid.

    OP’s attitude about this whole thing seems so opposite of HR and Payroll’s response that it makes me wonder if there are other places where OP is out of touch with their company culture.

  161. NW Mossy*

    Oh, OP.

    When the payroll department that made the mistake is telling you “She’s right, it can’t happen again and it shouldn’t have happened at all,” you should listen. They’re the ones who messed up and they’re not offended and/or classifying Jane as An Example Of The Disrespect From Younger Generations. They’re owning their mistake and making it right, which demonstrates an appropriate level of professional maturity.

    It sounds a lot like you’re extrapolating from issues you’ve had with others and putting Jane’s actions into a box they don’t belong in. None of this has anything to do with Jane’s age or not understanding “her place.” You should reflect on the fact that you seem to be the only one reading the situation that way.

  162. Jesshereforthecomments*

    Dang, how much is OP getting paid that they can go two paychecks without a blip, yet disparage someone who was able to miss one without going nuclear. Along with lack of empathy, insight into modern work mores, etc., I think this speaks to how damaging it is that pay is so vastly disparate between entry level and management. OP makes way too much, and/or this poor employee makes way to little.

  163. banoffee pie*

    This is going to get brutal. I might have to bail lol. I think this OP is definitely cruising for a bruising!!

  164. Colette*

    I’ve had a couple of pay-related snafus. In the first one – the week I closed on my house – 1/2 of my paycheck went missing. (I had it auto-deposited into 2 accounts, and had changed one of the accounts.) It took a couple of days to resolve.

    The second time, my paycheck bounced. I didn’t realize until the owner of the company stopped by my desk to explain and apologize. I believe my response was “I appreciate this, but it needs to be resolved ASAP. I don’t work for free.”

    And that’s what the OP needs to realize. If the company isn’t paying her employee, she is working for free. I’m sure there are dozens of other things she can be doing with her time; she is working for this company in exchange for a paycheck, which she is not receiving.

  165. animaniactoo*

    Your employee was perfectly respectful the first and second times your company screwed up her paycheck. They don’t get endless chances and therefore her response to the 3rd screwup was ALSO perfectly respectful.

    If that’s a problem for you, you should not be a manager.

    1. Expelliarmus*

      +1; it sounds like OP perceives this as Jane unnecessarily berating the payroll employees, but she was in fact simply assertive.

    2. Observer*

      Eh. Jane was perfectly respectful the third time, too. Saying “I can’t work for you if you don’t pay me” is not REMOTELY disrespectful.

  166. Rachel*

    I’ve worked in payroll for almost 20 years. What to do when I make an error:
    1. Apologize for error.
    2. Get correct info (hours, pay rate, banking info)
    3. As soon as possible, make employee whole.
    I love the new ways to pay people immediately (Venmo/Zelle/Pay Cards come to mind). I work for a temporary staffing agency now and we pay weekly. Many employees live paycheck to paycheck and every hour of pay may already be budgeted/spent.
    Errors will happen, but need to be corrected immediately.

    1. Alab*

      At my last job I had been on sick leave for a number of months. After I got back the payroll person attended training where they learned that they had been withholding taxes incorrectly for employees on sick leave. Literally the next week (when they returned) they contacted everyone impacted and apologised including that the money would be in our bank accounts next day. I was like “no problem and thanks for fixing it as soon as you knew” apparently at least one person gave out to them but I can’t see what they could have done better

  167. irene adler*

    Weeell, in Jane’s entire experience with COMPANY, her paychecks have been shorted/absent.
    Either pay is not dependable, or somehow she’s being picked on. What else can she assume?

    She needed to make it clear that is not acceptable. I think her words were well-chosen to get the point across. There was no name-calling, temper tantrum or any kind of unprofessional behavior. I say well-done!

  168. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

    How in the world is it “fiscal irresponsibility” for Jane to budget her spending based on the amount of money the company was contractually obligated to pay her at contractually/legally required intervals?

  169. Hex Libris*

    *Opens millennial dictionary*
    Oof. Wow. YIKES.
    Every once in a while I hope like hell a letter is fiction, and this is one of those times, because I wouldn’t want the LW to be in charge of a rock collection, never mind real live humans.

  170. Hills to Die On*

    I am going to call it right now and say that Jane and this manager are going to clash before too long. Too bad Alison isn’t talking to Jane to advise her to move to another team. OP, you may want to consider finding another (better) role for Jane. I think you are too far apart in managerial style. It won’t be good for you personally but it will benefit Jane.

  171. Anastasia Beaverhousen*

    I’m going to go out on a limb here and guess that LW is a male who is at least one generation, if not two, older than the employee and not only has very poor insight into the payroll laws but also has a problem with chauvinism and talks down to all of his female employees. I have had bosses like him, I smiled when they got fired for sexual harassment and inappropriate behavior towards female staff in the workplace. This is not to say that LW is sexually harassing his female employees but I bet dollars to donuts he is treating them differently and needs to be reigned in as it is HE who is too big for his britches.

      1. Anastasia Beaverhousen*

        The LW feels that his brand new staff is “too big for her britches” and that she is “not showing enough respect”. This could be a female boss but I am giving the opinion that I doubt it.

          1. alicia.x.*

            i got the vibe of ‘judgmental old white lady boss’ potentially from the south because of the “too big for [her] britches” thing

        2. Umpire*

          As a woman myself, LW totally read as a woman to me. What I’m picking up is a difference in race and age. As a black woman, this is giving off how certain white women treat us and other woc.
          But either of us could be right. Or neither, who knows.

  172. bluephone*

    Ugh, sorry, just thought of something else. It doesn’t matter if Jane habitually spends every paycheck on everything *but* necessities, or if she is more careful with finances than the lovechild of Suzie Orman and Dave Ramsey and has an 18-month emergency savings cushion. The company literally owed her the minute they messed up the first paycheck and like others have pointed out, left themselves open to huge legal and financial ramifications the longer they didn’t rectify it (people with actual tax knowledge: would the missed paychecks eventually screw up Jane’s taxes at some point??? In terms of Social Security contributions or such? If it wasn’t caught or wasn’t fixed for another like 5 pay cycles?)

  173. Former Retail Lifer*

    Wow, OP. That’s commendable if you can unexpectedly miss two entire paychecks and not be worried about it, but for the average human, it’s going to pose a problem. Payroll’s job is to get people paid, and yes, it’s a HUGE problem when they don’t do their job correctly. How long do you think an employee should work for free before becoming upset about it?

    1. Sleet Feet*

      It’s not even commendable. I’m now in a position where I can miss two paychecks without concern. More even. It’s not because I’m a good person. It’s because I got a windfall that let me put some money aside. The habits I had before were arguably more commendable and disciplined but ultimately wasn’t enough for me to get ahead. Now that I am ahead it’s very easy to stay that way. I can also take advantage to make more money in ways I never could before.

    2. Observer*

      That’s commendable if you can unexpectedly miss two entire paychecks and not be worried about it,

      Commendable? Why? Not that I think it’s a problem. But it’s not an indicator of anything that the OP has done.

    3. Candi*

      “That’s commendable if you can unexpectedly miss two entire paychecks and not be worried about it”

      “How long do you think an employee should work for free before becoming upset about it?”

      (mops up sarcasm) I think I’m going to need another bucket.

  174. Barb*

    “Do not take advantage of a hired worker who is poor and needy, whether that worker is a fellow Israelite or a foreigner residing in one of your towns. Pay them their wages each day before sunset, because they are poor and are counting on it. Otherwise they may cry to the Lord against you, and you will be guilty of sin.” (Deuteronomy 24.14-15)

    “Look! The wages you failed to pay the workers who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty.” (James 5.4)

      2. Observer*

        As @Lady_lessa points out, it just shows that this is not a new problem.

        Also, it’s just a reminder that if you want to claim the mantle of “morality” and “respectful” behavior, then you should be aware that the most “conservative” position is that you PAY PEOPLE ON TIME. Nobless oblige and all that….

      3. SykesFive*

        The point is that the dominant system of morality in our society recognizes failure to pay workers as a very big deal. In Catholic moral philosophy it is a “sin crying out to heaven for vengeance.”

        So the LW’s attitude that the employee should suck it up is very hard to understand. It’s as though someone were puzzled why workers were upset by the company’s new “dance naked at lunch break” policy.

        1. James*

          Not just Catholicism/Christianity. The second line of the Wiccan Rede is (dependent upon the version, there are several) “Live and let live. Fairly take and fairly give.” Demanding work without compensation rather egregiously violates that principle. Even the attitude is a violation–it’s not fair to make the worker suffer emotionally for getting what’s rightfully theirs. Theft is also usually frowned upon by any culture or belief system that includes a concept of or analogous to karma.

          It’s also worth pointing out that Hammurabi’s Code, one of the oldest set of laws in Western civilization, devotes no small amount of space to the discussion of fair payment of workers. In the Middle Ages payment of workers was a major issue. Prior to feudalism payment of underlings was a major way people gained power–see the Germanic ring-givers, Beowulf, or El Cid (we will leave aside how the funds were obtained for the purpose of this discussion). Failure of payment could very well cost a leader his life. We have documents of the payment of contractors in Egypt as well. The oldest written records are financial transactions.

          This isn’t a Christian thing. This is a human thing. You pay what’s owed.

          As an aside, I understand Temperance’s objection. All too often I’ve heard someone spout Biblical verses in the way Barb did as if they were trump cards. OF COURSE everyone believes the Bible! OF COURSE everyone will accept the moral authority of the Good Book! Except many of us don’t. And constantly being expected to acknowledge the superior authority of a religion we don’t follow gets annoying, to say the least. If Barb intended this to be documentation it would be worth saying that, rather than merely presenting the quotes without commentary.

          1. Candi*

            I read that one of the first recorded strikes in history was by Egyptian builders (of pyramids and other things)… because they weren’t getting paid.

            While I think some explanatory text would have been order, I think it’s fine that Barb pulled out the Bible verses. Mentality like the OP’s -deference to authority, young ones shouldn’t be so “forward” and “big for their britches”, that the company/management shouldn’t be challenged, age is automatically a qualifying/disqualifying factor in any debate- is often carried by people who also claim to be “religious” (within a very narrow band) and consider themselves good Christians because they go to church, tithe properly, and listen to the pastor quietly. They’ve also usually never read much of the Bible.

            Hauling out that the Bible specifically says, “Don’t flipping screw over workers” in both the Old and New Testaments might hammer into such types’ brains there is no defense against lack of pay, no matter where they turn.

            Heck, there’s the Parable of the Vineyard in Matthew; it’s also relevant. A landowner needs a lot of laborers, and hires them throughout the day. Each agrees to work for one silver coin for all the work they put in for that day. When wages are (properly) paid out at sunset, the laborers who’ve worked all day grumble that they’re receiving the same pay as those who’ve only been there an hour or two.

            Note the landowner does not tell them they shouldn’t protest against his “superior” rank. He reminds them that they agreed to the rate when they were hired, and that’s what they’re getting paid. In other words, the time to ask to get paid more was during the hiring discussion.

            I don’t care for the tone of the “it’s my money” comment that follows, but the landowner has a point that it’s his to do with as he wishes.

  175. NoMoreOffice*

    This letter makes me so mad! The corporate world has been stood on its ear by the pandemic and workers aren’t taking the old corporate crap like this the way they have in the past. Over-entitled management is going the way of the dinosaur and OP hasn’t realized it.

    1. Hills to Die On*

      To OP’s credit, she wrote in. This is going to happen so much but it’s an indicator of change. It’s a good thing!

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        But — that’s the part that blows my mind. If one is a real person who has these bat-poop bonkers ideas and is familiar enough with AAM to write in, then how does one legitimately think that this crap is going to be supported by the tea-drinking cat priestess answering the letters?? As my generation said, do you even GO here? And if not, maybe you should lurk a minute to get the lay of the land before you huck yourself into the maw of internet commenting.

  176. Alice Simpson*

    Thank goodness the HR team and payroll team at this company are at least somewhat responsive.

    OP, apparently you are terribly out of touch, have no idea of the legal ramifications for your company of your company’s screw up and probably shouldn’t be managing the growth of a potted plant, let alone people.

  177. x*

    Wow Wowowowowow. Your privilege is showing. I do payroll and accounting and the main times I’ve ever cried about work were when there were problems with hiring and/or payroll and it seemed like any of the employees I serve might not get paid on time. It’s a HUGE deal. Wow.

  178. Not A Manager*

    I am positive there is going to be an update from the LW in a few months asking why she’s been moved to a different department and Jane is now running her old one.

  181. Charlotte Lucas*

    I once spent the better part of a day tracking down a (nonexistent) check for a new employee (I was a trainer). Payroll made a mistake & it wasn’t printed. They didn’t want to admit their mistake (cutting a check that day meant the COO would have to sign it) & asked if the employee could wait. I don’t think we even asked the employee, the answer was No. Jane is 100% in the right here.

    Also, depending on your state laws, you might be legally obligated to pay her all you owe within a certain timeframe.

      1. Fran Fine*

        Right. Why in the world should the employee have had to suffer because of the payroll department’s screwup? Swallow your pride, admit your mistake, and get the COO signature.

  182. Nea*

    I’m glad that the “My employee quit because I wouldn’t let her go to her own graduation” letter is one of the links, because LW made me think of that one immediately. The tone of “how dare a human being being negatively impacted by corporate policies/continued mistakes push back!” is exactly the same.

    LW, I want to point out that neither the head of Payroll or your contact in HR see anything out of line in Jane’s actions. Reflect on that.

  183. Jessica Ganschen*

    I get paid weekly, and I might, might, be able to manage missing two pay periods, depending on when exactly it was in all of my bill cycles, but it’d most likely force me to put things on credit cards and/or take a hit on a lot of late and overdraft fees. You can bet I’d be spitting mad and struggling not to show it.

    2. Hydrangea McDuff*

      I know, right? Entry level career me would not have been that assertive in the 90s. Go Jane!

  185. Bernice Clifton*

    So if payroll had erred and paid Jane double her agreed upon salary, would it have been inherently unprofessional to tell her that returning the overpayment was a condition of her continued employment?

    1. SykesFive*

      No, that would have been fine. The employee is owed the agreed wage, not less but also not more. Keep in mind that in many states the employee has to agree in writing if the employer wants to settle the account by deducting from future pay.

  186. Ex-Teacher*

    All I can say to LW is that your perspective of “respect” is heavily warped and out of touch with reality if you find “Pay me the agreed wage at the agreed time or I’ll quit” to be disrespectful.

    My Uncle always said “The first day I’m not paid is the last day I work,” and he’s a Boomer, so this isn’t an age or generational thing. It’s not a generational problem, it’s just LW misinterpreting “respect” to mean “complete deference and unending gratitude for being employed.”

  187. Mirea*

    Jane deserves better. It sounds like there are good, empathetic people in the company and ideally, LW will recognize the error of their ways and resolve to be a better manager. I don’t expect it but it seems LW is getting the message from multiple sources and perhaps it will stick enough to allow for growth.

    If not, I hope Jane finds a good company with a good manager who appreciates her.

    LW, you made an excellent point when you said “people make mistakes.” Learn from yours.

  189. Sandi*

    Or the classism that makes OP think that everyone in their entire life, including when they just start their first job and don’t yet have their first paycheck, should be able to survive for months without an income. It is very likely that Jane had a job before this, but if Jane was a student and got paid minimum wage then saving is also impossible. OP seems like someone who had either parents or a spouse to support them. Why couldn’t Jane make it easy for poor OP and be born rich?

  190. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

    So I’m already late to this party, but, hi, I work in Payroll.
    Jane is 100% right. Nothing about her actions, words, or deeds was inappropriate. Everything you said, however, legitimately makes me wonder if this is a troll letter, because how on earth are you aghast at Jane repeatedly not being paid and that impacted her ability to pay bills and BUY FOOD? But assuming that this letter is legitimate, I sincerely hope you are able to open your mind up and really reflect on how messed up the sentiments you expressed are. I really, really do. Good luck to you. But better luck to Jane, frankly.

  191. Badasslady*

    I don’t understand what OP considers being respectful in this situation – not saying anything and continuing to work as a volunteer? Not escalating the situation after numerous attempts to solve it directly with the person responsible? It seems like OP is confusing respect with being willing to work for free.

    1. Katherine*

      Agreed. Her description of the conversation with payroll was completely polite and respectful. No raised voice, swearing, name-calling, etc. Only conclusion I can draw is that it was disrespectful of Jane to draw attention to the mistake in the first place. “Oh, whenever you get around to it, I’d prefer to get paid for my work, I mean I’m totally fine to work for free, but if it’s all the same to you, maybe cut me a check at some point? That would be amazing! Thank you! I’m so lucky to work for you!”

  192. Temperance*

    I have NEVER heard anything of value after someone is called “too big for their britches”, but this takes the cake.

    Jane was firm and professional with you and with payroll. Why didn’t YOU, as her boss, make sure it was fixed? Jane doesn’t owe you free labor, HR was right, and frankly, if this is how you approach everything, I don’t think you should manage *anyone*.

  193. I've Been Jane Too*

    Just wanted to add that I’ve been in Jane’s shoes several times several times. When I was 22 and fresh out of college, I started a PhD program that came with a meager living stipend, but I was really depending on that money as I had maybe a few hundred dollars to my name after I moved cross-country at my own expense and had to pay money for housing, groceries, gas, etc.. I started mid-August and we were to be paid monthly, starting in mid-September, a full month after I had started. The mid-September check got delayed for some reason and I remember getting called into the grad coordinator’s office with several other new grad students where the coordinator kindly offered to help us out with emergency loans if we needed and reassured us we wouldn’t be charged thousands of dollars in assessed tuition fees (since the holdup was that our employement as grad students wasn’t processed at all by the bureaucratic powers that be) due to the delay. Thankfully the delay wasn’t long (maybe another week or two) and I was able to be OK. But I 100% would have acted just like Jane if the delay had lasted much longer.

    Even though I’m in a better financial place now and have robust savings to cover many months of living expenses, I really sympathize with the stress of waiting for that first paycheck at a new job. Switching jobs can be really expensive (moving, finding new housing, etc.) and only during my last job switch did my new employer reimburse me for moving (and that was only some expenses, and I had to wait 6+ months to get reimbursed for some of those expenses since I incurred many of them between when I accepted the job and when I started, which was many months apart).

    1. Stitch*

      My spouse’s former job was bad about paying his travel expenses on time. Even with his paycheck and my paycheck the reimbursement for some international travel caused us to have to carry over a credit card balance one month (international travel is a LOT) which caused us to lose money in interest (we usually don’t carry a balance). Despite multiple complaints, this kept being slow and they refused to take steps like purchasing travel upfront. My job was basically subsidizing their lazy reimbursement methods (most months we managed okay). I don’t know how non dual income households or single people managed.

      This was a very large factor in him finding a new job.

      1. I've Been Jane Too*

        I’ve had that experience at several employers two (both state universities). At both of those employers I had to put all travel expenses on my credit card and wait until after the travel had occured (which could have been months and several billing statements later, since often they were travel for academic conferences) to submit a reimbursement request. Then the request would often take weeks to process, often getting kicked back several times for nonsensical bureacratic reasons. Thankfully I was able to do this but many people aren’t in this position, and it’s unfair to put this burden on employees.

        One of these employers wouldn’t reimburse for food purchased during business travel so I developed the habit of buying the cheapest fast food that could feed me for several meals at once (i.e., a footlong Subway sandwich could be both lunch and dinner) or scavenging for conference food. It’s a habit I’m still trying to break even though I make a lot more money now.

    2. Not Tom, Just Petty*

      Sharing. I worked at a particular university three different times. They paid once, on the last day of the month. Each time I got hired in during the second week and didn’t get a pay check for 6-7 weeks.
      They told me upfront, asked if it was a problem.
      I was living with my parents and already had a bus pass, so I was good. But if they had just said, “sucks to be you,” I would have had some thinking to do…as I walked out the door.

        1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

          Thank you. I was not Jane. I wasn’t sure if I could say something or not. One of my managers did try to bring it up, but I was too shy to talk about money at the time.

    3. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

      I was in Jane’s shoes when I was in my 40s! I had a nice salary, a terminally ill dog, no savings due to a fairly recent divorce and all that that entailed, and my younger son’s college bills, that I was hellbent on paying rather than letting him go tens of thousands dollars into debt, or (more likely) drop out. I paid his first bill in the fall of his freshman year, then all of mine, paid for the dog’s meds, got a traffic ticket, and found myself with $100 in my wallet and $70 in my checking and nothing else. Had my company made the mistake that Jane’s did, I would’ve had to dip into my 401K just to keep the utilities on and to stay current on my mortgage. The company (HR, payroll, etc) seems to be totally understanding of that, likely because they’ve been there too, or simply because they are humans with empathy. Why is OP not following their example? Who raised you, OP?

      3. Fran Fine*

        I was wondering that same thing (who raised OP), because YIKES! No compassion or empathy at all.

    4. Observer*

      When I was 22 and fresh out of college, I started a PhD program that came with a meager living stipend, but I was really depending on that money as I had maybe a few hundred dollars to my name after I moved cross-country at my own expense

      Well, how STUPID and OVERCONFIDENT you were! How dare you aspire to a PhD when you were so low on funds that you couldn’t afford to wait 3 months for your paycheck? How messed up were your priorities that you actually moved on with your education without somehow magically saving enough money to float your expenses for at least half a year?!

      /SARC

      OP, do you realize how STUPID this sounds? But that’s exactly what YOU are implying.

      1. I've Been Jane Too*

        Maybe OP has never been in the position where they’ve had anxieties about having enough money to cover routine (not to mention unexpected/emergency) expenses, in which case they’d be incredibly lucky. Or maybe they were, but it was so long ago for them that they’ve lost that perspective. In either case, I hope they’re able to derive the sympathy or empathy to be able to treat their employees more compassionately from now own.

  194. The Other Dawn*

    Honestly, OP should tell Jane to move to a different team…because maybe then Jane would have an empathetic boss who doesn’t think she needs to be put in her place for having the gall to ask for pay she earned and is owed.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I’d leave that up to Jane, honestly. It sounds like OP could benefit from a team member who pushes back a little, and if Jane *likes* being on this team (this issue aside) then Jane shouldn’t suffer (anymore) just to make someone like this more comfortable. However I agree Jane should absolutely have the option.

      1. The Other Dawn*

        I didn’t mean it as OP should truly tell Jane to transfer. More like, I really hope Jane leaves that team because OP deserves it. But if she’s able to work with OP, then that’s her decision of course.

    2. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

      Hell yeah, OP’s entire team should move to a different team. I’d be horrified to work for someone who’s that flippant about their employee working for them without getting paid for what seems like at least a month.

    3. Littorally*

      Agreed. Jane deserves the opportunity to move to another team because she deserves a boss who actually understands what it means to have responsibility for direct reports.

  195. Jaid*

    LW, the more you wrote, the more you exposed your ignorance and lack of compassion. You should step back and check yourself to find out where this is coming from. It is an ugly look on you.

  196. Stitch*

    I am so glad Alison read this LW the riot act. Not paying someone for two pay periods, especially after she chased them down and was promised she would be paid, is a huge huge error. She wasn’t abusive she was form this was a problem, which it 100% was.

  197. Calvin B*

    I really, really hope this letter is fake. It has to be, right? There can’t be people this out of touch?

  198. The Ruiner*

    You are utterly despicable. It’s people like you who destroy company culture, drive away amazing talent, and have zero awareness of how much damage they do. I would bet everything I own that staff turnover in your team is among the highest in the company, and that you’re desperately jealous of people who outshine you.

    I’ve been bullied by people with similar attitudes to yours, and I have been in therapy as a result. The company that allowed it to happen missed out on what I became, which is one of the most in-demand corporate communications consultants across some of the biggest tech companies in the world. And I did it all to fly above the ill-bred dregs of corporations who don’t realise how replaceable they really are.

    1. Fran Fine*

      Agree 100% with your first paragraph. After reading this letter, I felt so bad for not only Jane, but everyone on OP’s team. Good for you for escaping this same kind of toxic environment and flourishing despite the emotional toll it took on you. I hope Jane has a similar journey.

  199. Expelliarmus*

    OP, Jane was as polite as she could be while still remaining assertive about what happened. Furthermore, the payroll issue wasn’t just an issue because of Jane having financial problems; it was an issue because your organization has the duty to pay employees properly. Hopefully Alison’s advice will drive you to rethink your stance on this subject and your view of Jane.

    1. Charlotte Lucas*

      Yes! Whether she needs the money or not is secondary. It is rightfully hers, & the company owes it to her along with an apology for not meeting their fiscal obligation. (Sounds like she did get this from HR.)

  200. Bookworm*

    Not only did this happen *twice* but what if she hadn’t been hired and therefore is out of pocket for work she did with probably less leeway to contact payroll because she isn’t (in this particular scenario) on staff? And from your own letter, it appears the company did mess this up and Jane could prove that. What’s the problem? (You.)

    I also wonder if Jane is a member of one or more marginalized groups.

    1. Bookworm*

      Oh, and also think it’s worth adding as part of the generation conversations about: “No one wants to work”?

      Because of scenarios like this one is why.

  202. excitedkayak*

    I’m imagining the LW is a congealed blob created from the combination of Matt Walsh’s tweets & Mitch McConnell’s aura

  203. CW*

    Yes, people make mistakes, but this happened not once, but twice. And in California where I live, if you are late on anyone’s paycheck, you will owe a penalty to the employee for every day the paycheck is late in addition to the actual paycheck. And it doesn’t matter what the reason is. My guess is that Jane was probably owed at least a month worth of penalties if she hypothetically were in California.

    Also, it seems that the manager is the one too big for his britches, not Jane. He should understand that if here were Jane, he wouldn’t be happy either. My guess is that it has never happened to him. I certainly wouldn’t be happy if payday came and I don’t see my paycheck deposited in my account. And it happened to Jane twice; I would lose trust in my employer if it happened only once. One missed paycheck is all it takes for most employees to lost trust. Nobody works for free.

  204. John Wick*

    The employee under this situation was well within their rights. If I had been in the situation, with or without more than two paychecks worth of saving in the bank, I would have said the same. I don’t work for free, ever. I expect to get paid correctly, on time, every time. Anything short of that is foolishness. Demanding that an employee has financial backup for not one, but two of your easily avoidable errors is also foolishness. I’d venture to guess that the mentioned employee will be searching for other employment soon and possibly leaving a poor review on Glassdoor and other sites as a result of this cluster of mistakes/poor attitudes. Good luck with your future endeavors. May the odds be forever in your favor.

    1. Fran Fine*

      I don’t know why your repeated use of the word “foolishness” made me actually laugh out loud, but it did. This whole situation was straight foolishness, and OP’s response was the foolery on top.

    2. Elsajeni*

      Your username makes this comment especially delightful — I am really enjoying the image of John Wick typing out a precise, vicious Glassdoor review of an employer who tried to stiff him. “I expect to get paid correctly, on time, every time, specifically in these large gold coins for some reason.”

  205. Maggie*

    I’m sure its all been said before, but I really take issue with her thinking “If this keeps happening I cant keep working here” is disrespectful. She hasn’t been paid any money. All she’s saying is that she isn’t going to work for free. She isn’t going to volunteer for your company. Pay your employees simple as that. Jane will probably be quitting soon anyway if she’s as good at her job as you say she is, there are greener pastures for accomplished workers than places that make you beg to be paid and then berate you for it.

  206. Heffalump*

    I used to have a book called The International Dictionary of Obscenities. I’ve long since passed it on to a friend, so my memory on this is fuzzy, but I think there’s a French expression that conveys the same idea: to fart higher than your ass.

    My favorite expression in the book was a Russian one: “You’re not being fucked, so don’t wiggle your ass” = MYOB.

      2. Bibliophile*

        I just texted that to my teenager for use in French class later – their teacher is very forgiving.

      1. Louise Miller*

        This letter is insane! But not that surprising. We had an issue at my old agency when ALL paychecks were late a few days (after the first of the month) due to some bank issue. Our senior partner – a married guy in his mid 40s with kids – had the gall to recommend to the entire agency (100 plus people, most in their 20s getting paid poorly) that we all address this by “temporarily moving some money from your savings to checking” if we’re worried about things like rent bills. It was the most cringey thing to say to an entire agency when ALL the pay was late.

        1. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

          Surely, he meant from *his* savings to all y’all’s checking!

          My current employer, in one of its past incarnations (the company went through multiple mergers and leadership changes), used to give out a small holiday bonus (I got $60 in my first year there, $120 the next; on average, people who’d been there longer got $around 200). Then one year the bonus was yanked without any warning. No one said anything, we just did not receive the envelopes with checks inside that we’d come to expect. instead we each got two fortune cookies with company values printed on the strips of paper inside. The company head then went on to hold a series of town hall meetings at our locations, and at one location, somebody asked him about the b0nus. “Oh yeah, that. We canceled that. It was only a couple hundred bucks anyway” *shakes head* Some people are so oblivious.

          2. Candi*

            Uh, there are these things called memos and internal emails where you can tell people about this kind of decision…

            At some of my jobs, $200 was almost half my paycheck.

            That company, a year later: “Why do we have so many new people? Where are all the old workers who’d been here for years?”

            Stuff like that, it shows a lack of understanding, of general empathy and of how valuable employees are to a business. That makes people bail.

        2. Greg*

          My payroll missed a DD once and I drove three hours to meet him to give him a live check.

          The GALL of kids these days, asking to get paid when they’re supposed to…

    6. Heffalump*

      The same publisher also has Dictionary of Russian Obscenities. To put it politely, there’s a Russian word that means “woman badly in need of feminine hygiene deodorant.” I was like, what a thing to even have a word for!

      Australian English is also a lot of fun. I recommend G’day: Teach Yourself Australian in 20 Easy Lessons, ISBN 0207154317. Some years ago when my movie discussion group saw The Dish, set in Australia, I filled people in on the Strine expressions. (“I’m not some little galah with my arse hanging out of my daks.”)

      If I’ve helped folks decide what books to gift their friends and family members with, hey, HTH!

      I agree with Alison’s rule that comments should be on-topic, but I’m glad she isn’t too draconian about it.

      1. Bunny's Mummy*

        Thank you, just ordered the Australian book for my teenage son who is Australia in the model UN :)

        1. Mami21*

          … maybe just be aware that these kind of folksy, ocker expressions are very much historic in Australia. Like, no one would say the above unless it was a joke, and even then it would be cringey.

          If your son wants to sound like an actual young Australian, tell him to say ‘hectic’ a lot.

          1. it's-a-me*

            Exactly, think of it a lot like that meme:

            In my language we don’t say “I love you” we say “Voulez-vous coucher avec moi, ce soir” and I think that’s beautiful.

            In reality the phrases I often hear people claim are ‘Real Australian Slang’ are more like Australians taking the piss ;)
            (aka pranking you/tricking you)

          2. Lissajous*

            …to be fair, I have heard similar expressions used quite genuinely, but also I end up on mine sites in remote locations a fair bit. There is a certain breed of bushie/tradie/farmer who absolutely would say that; you will almost never find them in cities, though.
            They would also dial it up 200% for tourists.

            My favourite phrase from sites so far is “rare as rocking horse sh**.

            1. Mami21*

              Oh I do still hear ocker expressions – but they’re very much the exception and not at all the everyday modern slang your average Aussie uses. Usually even the genuinely ocker people lean into it for attention and a laugh. Which is great! Ocker expressions are creative and funny! But we’re not a nation of Paul Hogans, is what I’m trying to say.

      2. LunaLena*

        There was a video series on YouTube (produced by Vanity Fair, I think?) of international celebrities explaining slang words from their homelands that was quite hilarious and educational. The person would be handed a card with a slang term on it, and they would explain what it meant, where it came from, and how it was used. My favorite one was Gerard Butler explaining Scottish slang.

  208. Boadicea*

    I have positive, not neutral, respect for Jane after all this. I know the correct thing to do is to make the statement she did in that situation, and that people who aren’t OP would respect me for it.
    I probably would make that statement but I’d also be pretty anxious about it – and I’m mid-career and a decision maker. Kudos to Jane. No kudos to OP, who needs to take a step back and at minimum some training. Sorry.

  210. Beautiful, talented, brilliant, powerful musk-ox*

    I didn’t think anyone would be able to challenge Leap Day Boss on Level For Out-of-Touchness, but here we are.

  211. Forty Years in The Hole*

    Oh boy – missing pay periods I know well. Few years ago our federal govt pay overseers switched to a “new and improved” pay system, which provides pay to several Depts. What.a.f***-up. For MONTHS I, and thousands of other govt workers, got no/some/over payment. It was beyond disastrous for so many, and they just couldn’t fix it in a timely manner as they’d laid off hundreds of pay clerks (remember the “new and improved” comment?). The more people applied to the system, the further behind they got. The dept seniors were powerless. I was still waiting for my military severance and pension to kick in, yet still doing the work & no income for almost 6 months. Thank cats hubby was full time govt + pension, but still – mortgage, car payment, life… The press was all over it, letters were written, rents not paid, students leaving uni, etc. They finally sorted it, but as far as we know…heads did not roll.

      1. Forty Years in The Hole*

        I’m a staunch believer in thoroughly beta-testing and training for any new program/app/software before releasing it into the wild. Apparently my govt wasn’t …had they done so, folks would not have had to endure what probably doubled the wait time testing would have taken. Retired now so all caught up. :)

        1. Candi*

          I notice a heavy overlap between organizations that don’t like to stress test systems and do like to stress test interviewees and employees.

    2. Jaybeetee*

      Fellow Canadian fed here. My pay was screwed up for something like a year and a half, and it only got fixed when it did because I finally got fed up and contacted my MP. I was being underpaid as I had deployed to a higher position in another department but my transfer hadn’t gone through. On top of that, I had previously incurred an overpayment due to an acting. The pay centre was swamped at the time, and the attitude was “well you’re still getting paid, we’ll get to it when we get to it.”

      THE PAY CENTRE TRIED TO GET ME TO PAY BACK THE OVERPAYMENT BEFORE THEY FIXED THE UNDERPAYMENT. I lost my damn mind on the phone. They were going to tithe 10% off my pay to return the overpayment when I was still being actively underpaid. I calculated I would have been taking home approximately the same wage as a McDonald’s manager had they done that. (And because the absurdity never ends, no, they couldn’t just deduct one from the other. I had to receive my back pay for the underpayment, start getting paid correctly, then pay back the overpayment.)

      Anyway, pardon the rant. But yes, the entire Phoenix thing was absolutely stupid, and in my case it was “just” inconvenient. I can’t imagine the stress for people who weren’t getting paid at all. If the fed didn’t have such a good retirement plan, people would have bee leaving I droves. I was saying at the time they should have been cutting paper cheques if needed.

      All this to say, pay is serious. People’s lives get messed up when you don’t pay them. Jane had every right to get upset.

  212. The Smiling Pug*

    Everything I wanted to say has been said here, but I’m going to second everyone that wrote about how out-of-touch OP is. It doesn’t matter whether or not Jane is handling her finances well, she’s here at the company to trade her time, labor and energy for a paycheck. And the paycheck didn’t show up. I’m applauding Jane for her professionalism too: she handled it way better than I would have. Tf, OP. It’s people like you that make the working world difficult at best and hellish at worst. It’s people like you that are part of the reason that no one wants to work under a manager and work for themselves.

    1. The Smiling Pug*

      *go to work for themselves. Was so angry I couldn’t use proper sentence structure apparently.

    1. Fran Fine*

      RIGHT?! My response to the OP’s letter would not have been nearly as respectful as hers (or even Jane’s).

  214. Patty*

    Something that the LW fails to grasp is that not getting paid is in fact a real thing and a real problem. Jane may have had personal experience or second-hand experience of companies/employers who don’t have their shit together and can’t/don’t pay employees on time- my spouse experienced this in TWO workplaces. Advocating for herself politely but firmly was 100% the right thing to do.

    1. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

      A group of my friends worked for a startup in 2000 that quickly burned through their investors’ money and just… stopped paying people. People kept coming into work because it was 2000 and no one had reliable internet at home, and they needed it to look for work. But at the end of the day they were working for no pay. Most of the employees were entry- and junior-level, and recent immigrants who had young children in daycare and no savings. The owner/CEO was a 25-year-old kid from a rich family who hadn’t gone without a day in his life. Cannot speak to what was in his head when he decided to just stop cutting paychecks, but I bet it was something along the lines of “not the company’s responsibility” and “they should have saved” and “they are lucky to have a job”.

      1. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

        Adding to the above, I imagine they also kept coming into work because they hoped they’d one day be paid, because how was it possible that they wouldn’t be? who does this? Nope, he never paid them.

      2. Candi*

        I can’t help noticing there’s a lot of members of groups in that list who wouldn’t necessarily know they could go to the DOL.

        1. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

          Yep :( No one did. No one ever got any back pay.

          Years later, I found an interview with the former owner/CEO, who was now in his 40s, and was complaining that his past mistakes were unjustly following him around and interfering with his career as a business owner. He still has no idea how easily he’d gotten off.

    2. I'm just here for the cats!*

      depending on the company, and Jane’s experience she may be wondering if the company is going under and can afford to pay you. She may have had a previous employer who wrote bad checks or something.

  215. Katherine*

    WOW. OP, you are WILDLY off base.

    Not getting paid is a very big deal. This isn’t “Jane wrote a petition to be allowed to wear flip flops to work.” Your company failed to pay her twice. They failed to deliver on the most basic obligation. And you admit it happened twice! Frankly, she would have been justified in being a whole lot LESS polite about it than she was! What exactly is out of line about continuing to follow up with payroll when they aren’t paying her? Do you think she should just be grateful for the job and do it for free until payroll is in the mood to resolve the situation?

    Also, your description of what she said in the meeting was…..completely respectful. She said politely that an apology isn’t enough, she needed you to fix the problem that you 100% caused. You don’t mention profanity, yelling, threats….. I can only conclude that it wasn’t the content of her speech, but the fact that she had the nerve to stand up for herself at all that you find “disrespectful.” Yes, people do make mistakes. And the people who are affected by those mistakes are entitled to firmly insist that those mistakes be rectified.

    And your paragraph on her “fiscal irresponsibility” is a) disgusting, b) ignorant, c) none of your goddamn business. LOTS of people can’t easily absorb the impact of a missed paycheck.

    Finally, “she doesn’t understand she’s entry-level,” again- this isn’t Downton Abbey. Her entry-level status doesn’t affect her right to be paid on time. The combination of elitism and ignorance that would motivate a person to say this is….not something I’d want to see in a manager.

    I’d cross my fingers that no one from work sees this email and figures out that you wrote it. I’d fire an employee with such a poor understanding about employee rights and responsibilities.

    1. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

      Cosigning all of this. All of it! And you’re right, I found what she said in the meeting very professionally worded and not at all disrespectful.

      1. Katherine*

        This one hits a nerve because I was in a vaguely similar situation years ago- a long term temp job NEVER paid us on time and the agency took the “we’re friends, we’re family, can’t you just be a good sport about this?” approach. They actually called a meeting where they said they understood we wanted to get paid, but couldn’t we be nice/polite about it?

    3. Observer*

      Also, your description of what she said in the meeting was…..completely respectful. She said politely that an apology isn’t enough, she needed you to fix the problem that you 100% caused. You don’t mention profanity, yelling, threats….. I can only conclude that it wasn’t the content of her speech, but the fact that she had the nerve to stand up for herself at all that you find “disrespectful.

      . . . snip . . .

      Finally, “she doesn’t understand she’s entry-level,” again

      The second piece explains the first. Apparently, paying employees timely is optional and at the discretion of the people “in charge”. Therefore, since Jane is not “in charge” the simple act of clearly stating an EXPECTATION rather than asking for a favor (with or without hat in hand) is “disrespectful”.

    4. pentamom*

      They treated their employees far better than this on Downton Abbey. Being low-level didn’t mean you weren’t paid according to agreed on terms in a timely fashion, and when they had to let someone go, they promised them a good reference for all but the most egregious misconduct (at least according to the understood standards of the time).

  217. Mirily*

    Because generational differences were invoked in the “younger staff” comment I think it’s important to address the age gap as an actual issue here. You opened the door.

    OP this is embarrassing for you and if you aren’t careful is going to be the first red flag to your staff and potentially HR that you are out of touch with the times and perhaps should no longer be managing a team. There’s not even a *hint* of remorse or understanding here and instead shock, judgement and annoyance that an employee would set boundaries and not consider her current employment the end-all-be-all of her own life.

    This is purely anecdotal but so many of the Baby Boomers I’ve worked for (or are parents of friends) spent the bulk of their career saying “yes” to management in a bid to prove their worth for things like raises and promotions. Working late, missing dinners at home, skipping soccer games, working on family vacations, etc. … and basing their major life milestones on progression at work which was dependent on management liking them. Work seems to have been a very large identity piece for this generation but that hasn’t carried over to other generations. You can argue the merits of that but it is what it is so if you’re going to effectively manage them, you’re going to have to bring your views inline with the new expectations of the workforce.

    1. Charlotte Lucas*

      One of the many reasons I am so glad my (slightly) pre-Boomer father was in a union. We were never taught this kind of company-loyalty nonsense.

  218. spek*

    Sometimes you have to wonder if a letter is fake or that there are actually people out there so out of touch with reality.

    1. Elenna*

      I mean, multiple people in the comments have talked about similar experiences. So unfortunately, yes, people do think like this.

  219. The Real Persephone Mongoose*

    I’m waiting now for the forthcoming letter from Jane asking how to deal with her overly rigid manager. “I thought the company was a good fit for me but things started going sideways from the start. I didn’t get paid for the first couple of pay cycles due to a payroll issue. HR was great about resolving the issue but things really changed with my new boss. She became hyper critical of me and very cold towards me. Since that time, I’ve felt that I can’t do anything right. She speaks down to me as though I’m a young child, is condescending when she explains things, and to be honest, has some very out of touch ‘rules’ about how people should behave. If it wasn’t for her, I’d really be happy in my role…”

  220. H*

    OMG I used to work in EAP and HR would send employees like this to me who they didn’t pay or sent their first check to the wrong place and be like “umm can you help them” and I was like “umm you need to help them ASAP” and payroll was so strict about not cutting checks outside of pay periods. Honestly, loved the response to this letter. This manager is terrible and this is why people are resigning in massive numbers. Yes, I am going to be unhappy and “disrespectful” (which honestly just sounded like it was super direct) if I can’t meet my needs because you aren’t paying me!

    1. Candi*

      My mind is boggled. They thought EAP should handle someone upset about a pay law violation?? Well, I suppose you could send them to counseling to help them gain confidence to put their collective foot down…

  221. SleepyKitten*

    Contrast with how my company acted when one of the big banks had a tech meltdown and couldn’t process the salaries for ONE WEEKEND (not multiple pay periods) – profuse apologies and the offer of an advance through a different bank to anyone who had bills coming out in the following days.

    The professional etiquette that says no-one should ever admit to needing their salary, as if we’re all third sons of nobility who must pretend that papa is still sending money for the horses, is frankly ludicrous. Here it seems to have led to the idea that you shouldn’t ACTUALLY need your salary because you somehow have multiple pay periods saved at the start of your entry level job.

  222. Rick Tq*

    OP, you and your company are lucky Jane didn’t go to the state Labor Board the second time her check was missing. This isn’t about her finances, it is about your payroll department missing legally required delivery times for pay checks.

    I work for a 70-person company and one payroll cycle our clerk submitted the file too late so paychecks were delayed by one day. As soon as management found out the Owners of the company sent out a broadcast email detailing what happened and stating the company would cover any overdraft, late, or interest charges any employee had to pay as a result of the error.

    Your payroll department got let off easy and they know it.

    You, sir, need to find a clue.

    1. irene adler*

      Good move on their part!

      I’m at a small company and when paychecks were going to be late (twice in the 2 decades I’ve worked here), they did one better.

      Our regular Friday paychecks were delayed until Monday. They added $100 to each paycheck.

    2. school of hard knowcs*

      Yikes, Yikes, Yikes and more yikes.
      My company ended up paying fines and restitution to employees for not having the lunch break at the right hour (Yes California), it was a difference between the union contract and labor laws. Labor laws won and the company paid for it.
      Years ago I worked for international company, due to bank snafu the paychecks on the west coast would be a day late. The company sent out an email the day before offering to pay any charges and late fees the employees had due to the 24 hour difference in the deposit.
      If I was in HR/payroll I would be checking and doublechecking what allowed this to happen TWICE.

      1. Candi*

        Govt law trumps private contract agreements every time. That’s why you get lawyers in the relevant fields to look them over BEFORE making contracts official.

  223. CrankyPants*

    I feel very strongly that I can place the letter writer firmly in the “has stated openly, out loud, where people can hear that there is a labor shortage because people are lazy and dont want to work and getting covid benefits”

    This smacks of that mood. The whole “no one has to treat you like a human being because you are lucky you even have a job” mentality of corporate America.

    In all this I just feel bad for Jane because this manager seems like the type to be petty and vindictive and will absolutely hold this against Jane. Its a very rare case where a person is wrong, is told so and corrects it and in this case…..you dont learn to be THAT WRONG without years of practice and no corrections.

    Might be cynical but I am postive the writer wont take anything productive from this.

  224. Tsalmoth*

    As a manager, I consider my job to advocate for, not against, my staff. If I found out that one of my folks had not been paid, I’d be yelling at HR/Payroll ten times more than that staff member, because I’d know that I’d lose that employee if this continued to happen. I honestly would love to know how experienced the OP is as a manager, and if they’ve had any sort of training.

    1. Mental Lentil*

      This!

      I always follow new hires around on payday, asking “Did that deposit hit your account? Did you get your paystub?”

      Because, you know, you are much more likely to retain employees if you actually PAY them. (Also, you’re legally required to pay them, because not paying them for work is, ahem, technically slavery. And you’re legally required to provide paystubs.)

  225. Hiring Mgr*

    I wonder if Jane is a milennial – they’re known for spending frivolously on things like avocado toast or artisinal bread and things of that nature.

    Still, your company dropped the ball here so even though Jane may have serious flaws in her character, this one’s on you – please reevaluate your stance!

    1. CarCarJabar*

      I can’t tell if that first sentence is sarcasm or not. It really doesn’t matter what generation she belongs to or what she spends her money on. Also, nutritious food is not frivolous.

      But, please tell me it was sarcasm.

      1. Hiring Mgr*

        Yes it is – as you mention the age is irrelevant, actually all of it is irrelevant except the not getting paid part

    2. Stitch*

      I always found the avocado toast thing funny. I ate a lot of avocado toast when I was pregnant (high in folic acid) and it was downright cheap. An avocado costs 50c to a dollar, depending on price fluctuations and deals and one avocado makes 2 toasts.

      1. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

        The avocado toast thing has always mystified me. It’s a relatively cheap vegetable on a piece of toast, sometimes with other veggies or cheese thrown in. But at one point it seemed like everyone was looking at it as if millennials were having champagne and caviar for breakfast. Would it have helped if we’d called it a veggie sandwich, I wonder?

        1. Lenora Rose*

          There was a short lived fad where small upscale cafes were selling “artisanal toast” (ie, open faced sandwiches with slightly quirky ingredients) as an overpriced treat, and I think when they say avocado toast, they mean buying this sort of thing at a premium instead of the kind we make for ourselves at home because it’s cheap and tasty. (It’s probably still a thing but it’s also gone mainstream again, and isn’t always so overpriced nor does it nave “artisanal” in the name.)

          1. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

            I did have an avocado toast for breakfast once, pre-Covid, when a meetup group met at a cafe in the morning and I needed something to eat. It was… an open faced sandwich. It cost what I’d expect an open faced sandwich to cost. It was filling and tasted good (it had other toppings, not just avocado). Not arguing with you, just puzzled that everyone latched to that one food item, of all things. I bet that most people throwing out the “harrumph, avocado toast” go out for lunch on the regular, when they could just drive home and make themselves a bologna sandwich, heh heh.

            1. Lenora Rose*

              I don’t understand why they latched onto it, either.

              I do know a young Millenial/older GenZ who wrote a parody TikTok about turning all the collapsing and closing Golf courses into avocado fields because if you’re going to indulge a generational obsession, why not make it the younger generation for once?

  226. Dasein9*

    OP, the reason it is not unreasonable for HR to provide not only Jane’s pay but also gift cards for groceries, etc. is that the failure to pay Jane on time likely cost Jane money.

    Let that sink in: Not only was the company not paying Jane, but continuing to work for you was costing her money.

    Late rent entails a late fee. Late or smaller credit card payments end up costing money due to compound interest. Same for student loan payments. Chances are good that an automatic payment or two garnered overdraft fees.

    Instead of misapplying idioms about britches, you might want to consider what types of assumptions you are making about your employees if you think they should pay for the privilege of working with you.

    1. James*

      The other thing to consider is that the company violated their agreement with Jane. It really doesn’t matter if Jane needed that $500 or not–the company owed her the money (and that’s a pretty small amount) as compensation for that violation. That Jane needed the money likely made her advocate better, but ultimately it’s simple justice to pay someone interest on what amounts to two involuntary loans to one’s employer made without her consent.

  227. AnonFed*

    I’m a fed and the government shut down for a month when I was 8 months pregnant. Our Secretary (who was a billionaire) gave some interview calling employees foolish for having to take out loans to cover not being laid. For a month. Right after Christmas.

    We did eventually get paid but at the time we weren’t legally required to and again 8 months pregnant, great time to lose pay.

    This letter reminds me a lot of that.

    1. AnonPi*

      Yeah this reminded of me when I was a subcontractor at a gov’t facility, and they had been jerking my contract around for a good year after having been there 5+ years (sometimes they’d renew it a month, 3 months, 6 months, it changed constantly for almost two years). I knew once they started doing that, that my days were numbered (they had already cancelled plans to hire me directly after promising that for several years too). They were bad about not giving much notice to laying people off – they gave 2 weeks for a student worker, when they knew 3 months prior they weren’t renewing his contract.

      Knowing this I asked the relatively new team leader to let me know asap if they were not going to renew my contract than wait til the last minute, so I could notify my contracting company asap to look for other contracts and so I could look for work myself and hopefully have something lined up. Instead he berated me for my obvious poor financial planning if I couldn’t be laid off for at least 6 months. And then said he wasn’t inclined to give me notice because after all I could end up leaving early and leave them in a bind. So, it was ok if they left me in a bind financially, but it was not ok if they were in a bind because I left for another job???

      So I started looking for work on my own anyways, and ironically they ended up with 3 days notice of my departure (not by my plan but just how it played out).

  228. HugsAreNotTolerated*

    If I were Jane I’d be very very tempted to take that check & $500 in gift cards and not come back from the trip to the bank. OP seems like the type of person where “First Impressions Matter”. Jane’s first impression of the company is that they were unable to pay her correctly or at all for the first 3 pay cycles she was with them. Given the current job market, Jane’s probably already got several applications out and I don’t think a single person can blame her.
    HR made amends, but they can’t go back and make it right. For better or worse, Jane is always going to wonder if her paycheck is going to show up with this company.

    1. irene adler*

      Exactly! I’d be in a panic over this and wonder what I’d gotten myself into. For all Jane knows, COMPANY is not able to make payroll regularly. The apologies and talk of having “solved” her paycheck issue could be attempts to cover up this fact.

  229. CoffeeIsMyFriend*

    In grad school we got paid once a month…for two months in a row my paycheck was late. The Chair (who got paid twice a month and made many, many times my salary) acted like this was no big deal and I lost ALL respect for him. Also, thankfully I had the money to pay my bills (I was very, very lucky compared to some of my fellow students), but I still overdrew an account because I had expected the paycheck to top off my checking account and hadn’t bothered to move money from savings. So yeah, one can be careful with their money and still wind up in a bad spot due to **** like this!

      1. CoffeeIsMyFriend*

        I was very, very lucky. also, our HR / payroll kinda acted like the boss in this story
        I do not donate to my graduate school….

    2. Carlie*

      When I was in grad school we also got paid once a month. When the school switched payroll systems they said no one would get checks that month but it was OK because we’d all get that money in the next paycheck, a full month later. It took howling from the student government for them to realize how bad this was, and they thankfully set us all up with loans from the emergency budget to tide us over. But still, it hadn’t occurred to anyone that it would be a problem.

  230. BlueBelle*

    We often hear so many HR horror stories it is nice to hear of HR doing the very right thing that a manager wouldn’t have done.

  231. Uncle Bob*

    The most shocking part of this is that the LW didn’t mention “whipper snapper” or “back in my day” after dropping a britches comment.

  232. ZSD*

    To the extent that it doesn’t go without saying: can we please add this one to the update list? Thanks!

    1. Stitch*

      Oh you know the LW will either slink off in shame or write back telling Alison why she’s all wrong and young people these days don’t have proper respect.

          1. Observer*

            Yes, they did.

            Their strongest argument (in their mind, at least) was “The firm is not doing anything illegal by the laws here. She would have no legal case at all and if she quit she will not be able to get unemployment.”

            Which is true, I supposed and I guess it does make it better than withholding pay. But still….

          2. Candi*

            What struck me was the extremely rote tone of their phrasing, like they’d made the reply before A LOT.

  233. NYC Taxi*

    Wow, Jane is my hero. I don’t know if I would have been able to speak up like that in my early career. OP, if one of my people was not getting paid, I would have been camped out in the HR office with pitchforks and torches. You don’t mess with people’s money. You need to reassess your management style if all you got out of this incident is that Jane should be more deferential and more “fiscally responsible.”

  234. clearlyMillennial*

    this isn’t reddit, and i wouldn’t call you any names anyway, but you are totally out of line, letter writer!!!

    consider yourself lucky jane didn’t toss up her middle finger and walk out, cause I would have.

    i’m so tired of the older generation thinking we work because we feel a sense of duty. we don’t. we just want a paycheck and benefits with no drama or stress

  235. Robin Ellacott*

    I’m not giving free rein to my feelings here, because I want to be constructive….

    I encourage the letter writer to think of work as an agreed upon exchange of work for money, where both sides have rights and responsibilities in equal measure. Employees agree to work for prescribed hours, and the employer agrees to pay them at prescribed times at a set rate.

    If an employee fails to show up or does not work, I expect the LW would feel quite aggrieved and would tell them with some authority that they need to meet these expectations. The same is true the other way round – employees have a right to demand what the company agreed to do. This is not an area where they are the supplicant, any more than the cable company is the supplicant if they have to remind you to pay your bill.

    In my youth I managed a chain store with part time, minimum wage employees. One time payroll messed up and nobody got paid, and the payroll company was very offhand about the whole thing saying they would look into it and mail cheques in “a week or two.” Staff were crying and panicking (nowhere near as calm and professional as your staff member, and I didn’t blame them) and I was hitting a brick wall with HO.

    Neither the payroll company nor the district manager seemed to remember that people NEED their pay, especially when starting out or not making much of a salary yet. It was the end of the month! No their landlords will not “understand”. I had to power call and eventually go to the regional manager to get pay rushed to them. They acted like I was being a pest in advocating for my staff to GET PAID and 20+ years later I still remember how angry I was.

    Please, OP, remember that it is very normal to need every paycheque urgently and if you’re lucky and this is not the case for you, it is for many (most?) others. Paying staff promptly and fairly is an employer’s first obligation to them. If we fail to do that, we need to make it right and we need to treat it as a crisis.

    1. Candi*

      I hope regional manager made sure DM and payroll company got read the riot act about Do you have any idea how expensive NOT paying them is!?!

      You did good. Home run and all the achievements

  236. Not really a Waitress*

    Business Rule #1 – Never mess with an employee’s life or livelihood. Period. She was obviously patient, had it worked out, or thought she did, and then the company still messed it up. So its been a month? I admire her composure.

  237. CarCarJabar*

    How much do you want to bet that Jane is a regular reader of AAM? She did a BOMB job of advocating for herself, tackling the problem head on while being direct and firm. Jane, if you’re reading this- send us your side of the story.

  238. Lacey*

    Wow. I love that this manager thinks someone must be fiscally irresponsible to need to be paid FOR THE MONTH.

    Especially at entry level. There were certainly times when I was in my 20s where not having income for a month would have ruined me.

  239. I'm just here for the cats!*

    Jane did nothing wrong, except maybe she should have let the OP know sooner. I would say that she was actually respectful being that she tried to fix it herself by going to payroll, and then she was respectful in clearly laying out her terms that this cannot keep happening.

    HR is right. and that $500 is nothing compared to the legal fees that the company could have.

    Something similar happened to an old coworker of mine. got paid monthly and there was a mixup and they didn’t get paid. The payroll tried to tell them that it would be another month and then they would get 2 months for 1 check (which puts you at a higher tax braket so more taxes come out). The had to THREATEN TO GET A LAWYER to get paid.

    The only Wrong thing (besides OP’s attitude) is the payroll person. Why didn’t that person go to their superior after the 1st time and have them cut a check right away?

    OP put yourself in Jane’s shoes. How would you like to work for free for 2 months.

    1. EvilQueenRegina*

      When this point was raised somewhere in the comments, I did wonder why Jane didn’t loop OP in sooner – then I did wonder whether, based on any prior interactions with OP, Jane had an idea she’d get a bad reaction if she went to OP for help and thought she was better resolving it herself in the first instance, and then it got to the point where she felt she did have to involve OP. I know that with a former manager who was bad in different ways, I certainly always used to try and resolve things without involving her if it was at all possible, so I can picture this.

  240. FlyingAce*

    Ehh… I’ve seen that “kids these days” attitude from my manager, and she is in her early 30s…

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Thank you. Someone on a deleted thread said 30 year olds don’t act like that and I’m sorry, people act like this at all life stages. It’s privilege and empathy, not age.

  241. This One Here*

    How dare my talented young employee expect to get PAID TIMELY for her work! How dare she COMPLAIN about not getting PAID TIMELY!

  242. generic_username*

    As someone who has cut the checks to make up for payroll errors, it sounds like Jane was VERY respectful in how she approached this. This is someone’s livelihood! I have had people shout and cry over this stuff, and I have fully understood…. If someone’s paycheck doesn’t deposit, their direct debits can and will bounce. You payroll department’s mistake could have cost Jane more than just a missed check – it could have added interest to her credit cards and fees to her bank account. Janes ONLY mistake was waiting two payroll periods to escalate this to managerial level. She should have had a physical check cut the day her first paycheck didn’t deposit.

    1. Daffodilly*

      OP, you’re tired of the “respect gap” are you? Then close it. Because it’s YOU that doesn’t have enough respect. She had enough respect that she:
      1. Was far more patient than the company deserved through THREE MONTHS of missing paychecks.
      2. Called a meeting and discussed it rationally instead of throwing a tantrum, going public, or shaming the company on Twitter. Honestly you are very, very lucky that she still wants to work there and has not created a legal issue for the company. She would be well within her rights to do either.
      3. Set a clear and reasonable boundary.
      You are not “superior” to Jane. You may rank higher on the org chart, but she is far classier and smart than you are. You definitely don’t deserve the deference and groveling you want. If you’re not comfortable with her on your team, then YOU quit. Or move to another team.

  244. Alex*

    I’m curious how OP thinks Jan SHOULD have handled this. Said “It’s OK, I’m just grateful to be able to work in the shadows of the greats, like you. If you don’t pay me I’ll just assume I’m not worthy, but if you can please throw a few crumbs my way”?

    Jan seems extremely professional. OP is the one acting unprofessionally.

  245. Katherine*

    OP, have there ever been any sexual harassment issues at your workplace? You might do well to think of this as a similar issue. Getting paid on time for all hours worked, and not being sexually harassed at work, are two very basic rights. They’re basic and *universal* rights, meaning that they apply to everyone, whether manager or lowly entry-level worker/peon. If an employee was sexually harassed or assaulted, not once but twice, by a coworker, would you be policing the employee’s tone when he/she reported the harassment, especially the second time? I hope you wouldn’t. You shouldn’t. You should be exclusively concerned with putting an end to the harassment and doing whatever you can for the harmed employee. And you shouldn’t be policing Jane’s tone here. Your company failed Jane on a very basic obligation, and your ONLY concern is rectifying that situation. Whether Jane’s manner of bringing the matter to your attention is to *your* liking is immaterial.

    2. Observer*

      OP, have there ever been any sexual harassment issues at your workplace? You might do well to think of this as a similar issue.

      Uh, I wouldn’t go there. Because if the OP’s attitude is anything to go by, they would consider a harassment victim insufficiently respectful for forcefully pushing back on the harassment, or making it clear that if the problem does not stop NOW, they are taking immediate action. No hanging up on a creepy caller. No telling someone to get our of their space. etc.

      f an employee was sexually harassed or assaulted, not once but twice, by a coworker, would you be policing the employee’s tone when he/she reported the harassment, especially the second time?

      Probably. Of course the SHOULD not. But I see no reason to think they would do what they should. Even companies that allow harassment, generally pay their staff and the victims of harassment.

  246. Another Person*

    Everyone here has mostly said what I want to say but I just wanted to throw out an example of empathy that I hope the OP could find useful as a “here’s what an empathetic response would be.”

    My friends run a very small business that had to lay off a bunch of people at the start of COVID. Almost all their employees couldn’t get unemployment because it was impossible to get through to agencies. They covered all employees’ unemployment until the employees could secure unemployment pay, because they KNEW they all lived paycheck to paycheck. Obviously they weren’t legally obligated to do it but they could afford to and they did it because it was the right thing to do.

  248. Zona the Great*

    I want to know what would have happened if OP were not shocked into silence and was able to say what she thought/wanted to to Jane in the moment with Payroll. Would Jane have backed down? I would have. Would Jane have stormed out? Would she then be the immature one who was written about in AAM later? Ugh.

  249. Hacker For Hire*

    Frankly, Jane sounds kind of awesome. She’s only entry-level and she had the balls of standing up for herself while delivering the message in a calm and professional manner.

  250. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

    I’m going to take a wild swing here and guess that we will NOT be hearing from OP in the comments.

    Thank goodness.

  252. JSPA*

    This is the first in a long, long time that’s struck me as likely fake. Recently, bored people are putting more effort into planting fake letters to advice columns (up to and including fake emails, fake webpages, etc) and then bragging about it on social media.

    If it actually IS real, let it be a message to the letter writer, that their attitude is bogglingly unbelievable.

    What makes me wonder is the level of illegality involved in not paying people. Even if it’s by mistake. It’s like the old jokes about the stoner calling the cops to complain about being sold bad weed (back when weed was illegal everywhere)…except this is a manager of long standing, presumably not stoned, doing it.

    Would this person say, “my employee told us it was not OK to cook the books,” too? Or, “they were unwilling to be dangled off the window ledge by their ankles to fix a broken bulb in the marquee, so they’re clearly not a team player”?

    1. Le Sigh*

      I think it’s entirely possible this is fake. But not necessarily because of the illegality … I’m always amazed at the number of people who think they can dock someone’s pay, not mail them their paycheck after they quit, etc.

    2. Archaeopteryx*

      What made me wonder is the tone of the letter and the comments about the employee’s budget. That just seems too fantastically un-self-aware to spell out and like they’re baiting a metaphorical beatdown in the comments.

    3. Beth*

      Doctor Nerdlove has a great policy when it comes to letters that might or might not be genuine: if the letter and the reply are something that can be of use to the reading public, he doesn’t worry about it. He posts the letter. Only one of the readers, at most, out of thousands will be the LW; the rest of us can still find it worth reading.

      If it’s a case of “This is too crazy/ effed-up / terrible to be real” — no, it isn’t. Very little is.

      1. My Boss is Dumber than Yours*

        That’s pretty much Alison’s policy, from what I remember her saying in other comments. That said, I have no doubt this letter is real. This just reads too much like previous bosses I’ve had who didn’t pay us on time, “forgot” to enroll our benefits, etc. then told us when we complained that “everything besides minimum wage is a bonus, and we should be thanking them when we got it rather than expecting it just because it was in our job offer.”

    4. kowl*

      Ha, I have had managers at start-ups who would 100% have said those things. They flat out told me that they felt okay paying me less and/or delaying my paychecks because I had a partner with a full time job so it wasn’t like I was starving or unable to pay rent. (Yep, my partner is a man and I’m a woman.) Likewise, they were consistently late in providing me with my tax forms – which they didn’t have until months after they were due because they’d been using the money they withheld from my paycheck to extend their financial runway. (This isn’t the US but yes it is super super illegal, maybe even more so here). But I was the obnoxious one for repeatedly asking for those forms, even a year after I’d left the company (“Hi, just checking in per our last email. You said you’d be able to provide the forms – which were due 3 months ago – by today. Would you please provide me with a status update?”)

      Sigh. It is worse to see this outside of toxic startup culture though.

      1. fogharty*

        I had a boss once who I can totally see writing a similar letter.

        I heard from former co-workers after I left that he was pulling all kinds of shenanigans with paychecks (privately owned business so no payroll oversight) including late paychecks and falsified deductions.

    5. Your Local Password Resetter*

      I learned a long time ago that nothing is so absurd or self-defeating that someone in the world won’t believe it and shout it from the rooftops.

      All of these attitudes are things we’ve seen before here. None of it read as fake to me, just unusually bad. And most of the time we don’t see it from the inside.

    1. Panhandlerann*

      We sure do! This manager’s obtuseness and lack of empathy for employees rivals that of the narrator in “Bartleby the Scriverner.”

    3. Yvette*

      Sadly, iirc, worst boss candidates cannot come from bosses who write in for advice, only from people who write in about their bosses. So that managers are not discouraged from writing in with problems and questions.

  254. Sparkles McFadden*

    I know this comment is non-constructive ranting, but I just feel compelled to ask this: WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU, LW?

    An employee isn’t getting paid and you’re OK with that? She’s not getting paid and you think that’s NOT financial hardship? You think she’s lying about her financial situation to get gift cards? Why do you think she’s WORKING?!? You’re judging her for stating that she needs to get PAID in order to continue working there? You’re arguing with the HEAD OF HR to say the employee is at fault for being upset about not getting PAID FOR HER WORK? I seriously hope you are on HR’s radar for your insane position here.

    OK, I feel better now. This letter made me angrier than any other letter, and that’s really saying something. This letter took the place of the one from the manager of the person who quit because the manager wouldn’t let the employee off to go to her graduation ceremony. That LW wanted to call the employee and lecture her on unprofessionalism. If you think not being paid is no big deal, then feel free to donate your entire salary to charity…or maybe your unpaid employee.

    1. Observer*

      Tsk. The OP did concede that not getting paid was “not OK”. That’s the actual phrase that the OP used.

      Which to be honest was actually one of the things that blew me away. I mean “not ok”. That’s all?! And the OP was being explicit in using this phrase as a minimizer. They say “while it’s not okay Jane didn’t get paid, the way she approached it was uncalled for” That would be an acceptable response if someone ordered the wrong lunch for her so she didn’t have lunch and she started throwing things at people.

  255. Astrid*

    OP’s inherent distrust of Jane is disconcerting.

    “Neither payroll nor I knew anything about it until today” is false because OP states that “Jane was able to show emails back and forth where she checked in with the payroll employee and asked if it was fixed, which they confirmed it was. Today was payday and Jane didn’t get paid. She checked with the employee again and they acknowledged that they ‘thought it was fixed.” This shows that “payroll” was definitely aware of the problem for two pay cycles.

    OP is unwilling to give Jane the benefit of the doubt but has no problem extending courtesy and understanding to the payroll employee who repeatedly screwed up (“People make mistakes”). For Jane’s sake, I certainly hope she is able to transfer away from OP as soon as possible.

  256. too many too soon*

    I have found in my 40+ years of wage-workerdom that missed paychecks usually mean a failing company, so not only is there the immediate crisis of not being paid, there’s the possible future crisis of the company going out of business after a stretch of not paying.

  257. Dark Macadamia*

    Whewwww the rising horror/glee of seeing this LW mount successively higher horses knowing they’d get knocked down in the response. Amazing.

  258. miss chevious*

    Yikes on bikes! If I discovered that one of my reports hadn’t been paid despite her attempts to fix the situation, not only would I be advocating on her behalf to get this situation taken care of IMMEDIATELY, I would be rolling heads (in a professional manner)! This is not just a legal issue (although it is certainly that), but also a leadership issue that OP should have jumped on the minute she became aware of it.

  259. Talula Does the Hula From Hawaii*

    I would ask what do you think she was supposed to do but i’m sure i would not like the answer.
    I hope she does get a different supervisor, one who is not a brat.

  260. Andrew*

    Good for Jane! I feel very sorry for employees with these antiquated beliefs who take things they don’t have to just because they think it’s wrong to stick up for themselves. How powerless they must feel.

  261. Mental Lentil*

    Wow, is OP not going to let Jane have a day off to go to her college graduation, either? Because this is that level of entitlement.

  263. Jimulacrum*

    Couldn’t agree more with Allison about this. OP is wildly out of line. If anything, the employee had too much patience in letting this go on for two months. If I were the employee, I’d have been checking in with HR *every single day* about where my money is, starting with the first missed paycheck, until I have my money.

    Employment is a relatively simple, reciprocal trade. Employee provides work, employer provides money.

    Generally, the employees “pay” first with their work, and the employer pays afterward with money. But imagine if it were the opposite, with the employer paying upfront. An employee accepts payment for two months but does not show up to a single day of work. That’s the logical equivalent to working for two months and not getting paid at all (which is generally worse in reality).

    Maybe the employee had some kind of honest misunderstanding, but that doesn’t really matter after two months of lost productivity. Even if the company is doing okay without the employee, it’s paying for the work and not getting it. This is unacceptable. The employee needs to make good on the agreement, or no more payments will be issued, and it’s likely lawyer time. And that all makes perfect sense.

    In OP’s case, the employee’s finances are none of the manager’s business, to be frank. Even if the claims about hardship are outright lies, it doesn’t matter. Pay the employee. You don’t get to make people work for two months and not pay them, and your attitude that she’s out of line to assert her right to the earnings for her work says a lot about you as a manager. She displayed a saintly amount of patience and gave way more time than the company should have had to resolve the issue. Call the extra $500 in gift cards restitution for making her work for two months with no income.

    I’m seriously aghast about the way OP has responded to this. I hope Allison’s reply and the comments here are a wake-up call. If this is your attitude toward the people you manage, you shouldn’t be managing people.

  264. mreasy*

    It just occurred to me that OP wrote in expecting Alison to give them advice on how to put Jane in her place? And how to get Jane off their team? Like “How dare she, you’re right, young people act so entitled, here’s how to make sure she remembers who’s boss while you try to get her fired”????? And they must be somewhat familiar with AAM? And thought Alison would agree with them. Alison!!!

    1. My Boss is Dumber than Yours*

      This reminds me of the letter a few years ago where someone (I want to say it was parents, not the company, but I might be wrong) went off on “kids these days” after a 25-year-old asked to renegotiate her salary because the company took away the car and housing they were originally providing to everyone in her location. But, of course, she was still required to live within the same distance and have transportation to be “on-call,” it just was now her financial responsibility.

  265. Rufus Bumblesplat*

    OP, I’m slightly gobsmacked at your reaction. You need to recalibrate.

    At a former workplace my manager made a mistake which led to me being shorted 3 days wages. Payroll was informed, but wouldn’t make a payment outside the set schedule and said I’d receive the missing money in my next paycheck. My manager apologised to me, and offered to give me the money personally in the interim, and I could return it after I was paid. I declined, but appreciated the gesture.

    This was over 3 days wages. Not a full missing paycheck, which would have been a much bigger deal. Your employee was perfectly professional, and both your HR and Payroll teams agree that she was in the right. Why are you adamant that everyone else is incorrect?

    Would you personally be fine with payroll repeatedly failing to pay you on time? I’m willing to bet the answer is no. Why should your employee be fine with this?

  266. Mable*

    The thing that stuck out to me the most was that LW used the words “overconfident” and “disrespectful” to describe her employee being able to look an authority figure in the eye and establish a pretty basic boundary (if you continue to not pay me, I can no longer work here). In my experience people who lack the self esteem to establish boundaries for themselves are really set off by people around them that are able to set their own boundaries – “like how dare you just casually take up space for yourself, who do you think you are?”. I hope LW takes some time and unpacks why it felt so offensive to her that someone felt comfortable enough to verbalize that they were 1.) disappointed and frustrated and 2.) would not stay in a situation that was creating a hardship for them.

    1. Fran Fine*

      Spot on analysis. OP seems jealous that Jane had the guts to advocate for herself instead of cowering.

  267. Sleet Feet*

    This reads like a BuzzFeed or CollegeHumour sattire article and I hope it is. Otherwise the OP is the literal embodiment of toxic management and sexism.

  270. Aphrodite*

    I didn’t even finish reading past the first paragraph, which ended this way: “she’s got very big britches.”

    Wow, OP, what a nasty and unprofessional thing to say.

  271. dorothy zbornak*

    my former company screwed up my paycheck once, I called payroll and they overnighted me a check. end of story.

    1. James*

      I worked for a group (on-campus tutoring when in college) that screwed up my paycheck twice. Second time I was gone. The idea of working for free–much less paying to work, as was pointed out in an earlier comment–is simply intolerable to me.

    2. TiffIf*

      I haven’t had a company mess up on a paycheck or miss one, but I recently switched positions in the middle of a pay period and someone in payroll reached out to me and told me “your paycheck is going to look a little weird this time; because you switched divisions it is split into two deposits”

      Responsible payroll!

  272. Nonny Moose*

    I have nothing constructive to say to the LW – if Jane ever happens by this post I hope that she leaves this company quickly.

  273. idwtpaun*

    I hope Jane happens upon this and sees the comments, so that she knows the company actually legally owed her much more than the $500 they gave her (and probably made it out as if they were generous for doing so). And the HR/payroll department really needs to look into what happened and make sure it doesn’t happen again, whether the fault lies with their personnel or with the payment system they’re using.

    OP, I am beyond shocked at your attitude and horrified that you are allowed to manage people. Maybe you eat air and live with with the fairies inside a cloud, but here in the real world, people expect to get paid for their work.

  274. anonymous73*

    You’re kidding me right? YOU’RE the one too big for your britches honey. Jane had every right to say what she said and good for her for speaking up for herself. The lack of respect is on you, not Jane. And your judgment of her financial situation and younger people is atrocious. Wow, just wow.

  275. Paul Pearson*

    Wow… I think you need to step back here. Her wording was perfectly polite and after multiple mistakes on your company’s behalf that could have put her in severe financial problems (and, frankly, three times is inexcusable) she was well within

    She was respectful. She wasn’t obsequious and she had not reason to be. Quite the opposite in fact. I am pretty appalled that you saw your employee wasn’t paid three times and your response is to be upset with the employee for not fawning enough while addressing how she has been treated. That is a gross red flag to me about how you manage employees and speaks to demanding a level of servility that is both unnecessary and distateful.

    1. Paul Pearson*

      “I’m getting tired of the respect gap I’m seeing with younger staff. ”

      You are not owed any more respect than she gave you.

  276. librarianmom*

    My sneaking suspicion is that LW is very uncomfortable with not only younger people, but FEMALE younger people. The expectation of quiet subservience is particularly high for women. The “big britches” comment is a dead giveaway.

    LW, I would point out to you that she already show patience and trust when the FIRST paycheck was missed. She absorbed that financial strain with the understanding that it would be resolved by next pay period. But you allow no credit to her for that. The patience was not rewarded and the trust violated when the SECOND paycheck was missed. At that point she had every right to be forceful in her stance that this had to be resolved immediately. She had already given as much grace as could be expected. If the payroll employee felt bad —- well they should have. They made a mistake, not once, but twice.

    I hope that you really examine your views on this incident and examine where your feelings about this employee is really coming from.

  277. Zweisatz*

    OP, do you understand that Jane has been working for free for three pay periods? Do you understand how incredibly disrespectful this is to act as a company? In the agreement between her and the company, the company has not held any of their part of the promises.

    You are so lucky that she didn’t rule the company as a scam yet and jump ship.

    And you decide to focus on (sexist, classist) optics instead of how lucky you are to still have this capable, professional employee? Wow.

  278. TK*

    Thank you so much for this response! Not just because you’re right but because I found myself agreeing with the letter writer- and realizing that I was in the wrong, conditioned by pressure for people (especially women) to always err on the side of politeness even when their livelihoods are at risk.

    1. TiffIf*

      I’m glad you found this helpful! I would like to encourage you though, to re-examine what you consider “politeness”. From the OP’s description, nothing Jane did was impolite. She was forthright and assertive, but not rude in any way. From what was reported, Jane remained polite.

    2. Observer*

      This is one of the saddest things I’ve read in a long time.

      I am very glad that Allison is helping you to re-calibrate your expectations

    3. Turtle*

      I’m sad that you would agree with the LW but glad this site has helped you!

      However, I don’t understand what was impolite about what Jane did, and actually I would say it WAS polite, to alert the company to an issue that may cause them to lose an employee and/or create a legal issue for the company.

      Being honest and upfront IS the polite thing to do.

  279. MadLori*

    seen on tumblr:

    Sometimes people use “respect” to mean “treating someone like a person” and sometimes to mean “treating someone like an authority”

    For some, “if you don’t respect me, I won’t respect you” means “if you don’t treat me like an authority, I won’t treat you like a person”

  280. Cmgronlund*

    Your company is legally obligated to pay people on time & accurately. Failure to do so puts the company at risk of legal action, fines and som on.

    If I were you, I’d thank her for the professional way she handled this – giving you TWO chances to correct the error.

    Also, the payroll person who made the original mistake should have reported this to management and corrected the error when failing to pay her the first time. That person needs some additional training.

  282. Disabled trans lesbian*

    I think it’s very fitting the “my best employee quit on the spot because I wouldn’t let her go to her college graduation” is listed as one of the “you may also like” posts, because holy hell am I seeing the parallels between those two OP’s. I have trouble deciding which OP is worse though, one attempted to screw an employee’s graduation and the other her paychecks.
    I’ll leave it at that, because if I said what I really want to say, I would get banned.

  283. Billinda*

    I could be wrong, but I’d wager that our sweet LW here is a man. This whole thing has blazing “little lady getting too big for her britches” vibes.
    So if you are a man LW, please check yourself even harder and ask yourself if you’d be as offended if Jane were a man who was firmly asking for the money he’d earned.

  284. Butterfly Counter*

    I’m sure the OP wanted someone like me and the way I deal with payroll.

    I was a poor graduate student for almost a decade. I had a small stipend, but had to track my bank account to the penny each week. Even after I got married (to another poor graduate student), things didn’t improve until we graduated and he got his first professional job, then I got mine. As a result of living on the knife’s edge for so long, I actually have a little PTSD when it comes to checking my banking. I occasionally look at the total when I pay my bills, but tend to balk at looking up the details because it is still consistently growing every month.

    As a result, my employer’s payroll department often shorts me 100s of dollars a month (for some reason, they tend to revert my pay back to when I just started AND THEN (once that was “figured out”) revert my pay to from before I got my raise). I’ve caught it a couple of times, but there have been times my boss and then someone on the staff who keeps an eye on budgets have noticed before I did. I’m told that it’s fixed, but they’ve “fixed” it about 4 different times since I started working here in the past 10 years.

    I’m hoping to take a page out of Jane’s book if/when the next time this happens.

    1. Observer*

      At least your management is handling this correctly.

      And in fact, the fact that someone else has caught it is something that the OP should think about – because not only did the payroll person mess up, THEY messed up. Unless their department is HUGE two months pay unspent (along with all of the overhead that typically goes along with the actual pay) is a lot of money. Do they have nothing to do with budgets for their department?

      And how did you not know that your employee was never entered into the payroll system? Do yo u not sign off on timesheets?

  285. The Rat-Catcher*

    I think the tone of “I can’t continue to work for X Company if this isn’t fixed today” is being misunderstood by OP. It’s not being delivered as some type of manipulation strategy. It is her sincerely telling you that she cannot continue to work for free. I couldn’t work for free either, and even if I could, I wouldn’t.

    1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      I think the tone of “I can’t continue to work for X Company if this isn’t fixed today” is being misunderstood by OP.

      It sounds like an ultimatum to me, even though Jane is in the right to think and execute that thought, and it’s literally the only thing I’d advise Jane to do differently (by omitting it).

      1. Eldritch Office Worker*

        I wouldn’t. It’s not an ultimatum if she literally can’t afford to keep doing this. The company had not given her a single paycheck and she should not give them any more labor if they don’t address that, immediately. It’s just what’s going to happen, not a threat.

      2. Delphine*

        Why though? It’s entirely reasonable–the second time the problem occurs after she’s given them a chance to fix things–for her to say that she will not continue to work for this company for free.

        1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

          I’d advise her not to for two reasons. First, it’s as obvious as the sky’s hue; if OP & HR can’t figure that out on their own, I wouldn’t bank on them taking her word for it, either. Second, ultimata lose their impact with repetition, so you don’t really want to establish them as the primary way to get things done.

          If she wanted to quit on the employer if it wasn’t fixed that day, I’d advise her to just do so.

          (A statement doesn’t have to be a bluff, untrue, or unreasonable to be an ultimatum; this is absolutely a textbook ultimatum).

          1. Observer*

            Second, ultimata lose their impact with repetition, so you don’t really want to establish them as the primary way to get things done.

            Except that there is no reason to think that Jane was going to make ultimatums a “primary way” to get things done. It sounds like she was simply clarifying what the situation was in order to make sure that the situation would in fact be taken care of, and if not she would actually walk off the job. And she needed to clarify, because the OP would probably NOT have made sure that a check would be cut the same day, much less allow her to get to the bank before it closes.

      4. Turtle*

        It’s just…facts. And yes, Jane cannot work for a company who will not pay her. A reasonable person would expect them to go elsewhere and Jane is making that clear. Honest communication is so important – this is just honest and not rude or manipulative in any way (which your response seems to imply.)

        1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

          Factualness isn’t part of the definition of ultimatum. Ultimata are no more inherently manipulative than any other demand.

      5. STG*

        Yea, I think the ultimatum was completely acceptable.

        Let’s swap positions. If a company found that their employee was not fulfilling their job obligations to the degree that the job agreement between employer and employee isn’t close to being fulfilled, a company would be in it’s right to say “You aren’t doing your job. You have to do your job or we can’t keep you”.

  286. Ralph the Wonder Llama*

    Holy cow I am sitting here in gratitude that I do not work for the LW. This situation is a total failure on her part, in every way that it could be.
    LW: “I’m getting tired of the respect gap I’m seeing with younger staff.” This seems to me to be a not so veiled attitude of contempt towards young workers. (FWIW, I am an Old). Also, with regard to not getting respect, perhaps the LW should consider that it’s not them, it’s her! Be back later, but right now I’m going to go tell my boss how great he is. Not kidding!

  287. Sara without an H*

    When I took my last job, my first paycheck didn’t appear in my checking account on payday. (I had signed up for direct deposit.) I called the HR director at once. She apologized for 10 minutes straight, called the Comptroller’s office, and had a check for me by the end of the day.

    There were no comments made about the size of my “britches,” btw, nor was I required to kiss my manager’s hand, ring, or other body part.

  288. Rainbow Brite*

    I wish I had been Jane when this happened to me. Instead, I was sufficiently “respectful,” and as a result, it took FOUR MONTHS for me to start getting paid at a new job. It was so bad that, by the time I was finally paid, I no longer actually worked there. (Not getting paid wasn’t my reason for leaving, though it probably should have been, but it was a pretty good indication of the general dysfunction level.) And then to top it all off, they overpaid me, and since I was owed so much backpay and each month’s due pay was different (due to unpaid-but-mandatory holidays), I didn’t catch it at first — by the time I got the letter stating that I now owed them money, I’d spent it all trying to undo the damage, and had to face another several months of strained finances as I slowly paid it back.

    Suffice it to say, I will never again value some nebulous sense of respect for my employer over getting paid what I’m owed, when I’m owed it.

  289. eldritchpuffin*

    Jane can come work for me ANY time. Anyone with that kind of poise, clarity, flexibility (after the first error), ability to self-advocate, and focus under pressure is someone that I want on my team.

  290. queen b*

    As someone who often lives paycheck to paycheck and has a pretty structured debt repayment program because of mistakes made in my early 20s…. if I wasn’t paid for 2 months I’d literally be in collections. Not an overreaction at all, and I would have probably followed up a lot more after the first month. Kudos to Jane for sticking up for what she deserves.

  291. Caz*

    OP, many moons ago, when I worked I payroll, I once worked a 13 hour day to make sure everyone in my organisation got paid properly and on time, because the alternative was unthinkable. Your payroll messed up hugely. Your employee stood up for herself and stated her entirely reasonable requirement, that her employer pay her for the work she was doing if she is going to continue to be employed there! That’s not disrespectful! Rethink your views here. This is not being out by pocket change, this is *not being paid* for the work that you have acknowledged is excellent.

  292. StressedButOkay*

    Oh no. Oh no, no, no. OP, I am sorry but you are very much in the wrong here. Missing a paycheck can create havoc to most people – this isn’t poor money management, this is simply a fact that most of us basically live paycheck to paycheck. But Alison is right – even if she was throwing her money off of buildings, that is irrelevant.

    Payroll messed up. Jane wasn’t paid multiple times. She didn’t scream or curse or treat anyone with disrespect – the only one being treated with disrespect is Jane by you.

    Not being “in charge” or not being in management doesn’t mean people have to be meek. You’re equating positions of power to…every interaction, possibly, and that’s not right.

    I am glad Jane spoke up for herself and I think you need to reexamine why that makes you uncomfortable.

  293. MissBaudelaire*

    I was in a similar situation to Jane. My boss hadn’t entered a code correctly, so my pay was dropped by six dollars an hour. And my company wanted to go and take back pay they didn’t feel I was owed. So my seventy hour checks were basically zero.

    I said the same thing as Jane. “If this isn’t fixed, I can’t work here.” Because I can’t! I can’t afford to pay someone to work for them. Especially when the error wasn’t mine. Especially when they weren’t exactly paying me luxury wages to begin with. Why no, during the pandemic when my husband was out of work, we did not have a massive cushion of savings to pad us out while my company got their stuff sorted and gave me my corrected pay, back pay, and gave back what they erroneously (and illegally) took from me. I don’t know anyone who does.

    It isn’t disrespect to have a boundary. It isn’t being too big for your britches to put a line in the sand and say “This is where I stand.” Employees aren’t very nice people who only exist to serve the company. They’re working for a paycheck, not because they just really like being there. A paycheck isn’t a gift drifting down to the heavens, given only to the best people.

    It is money they earned. It is money that was always theirs.

    HR handled this all beautifully. You, LW, did not.

    1. TiredMama*

      Actually, I think HR should have cut her a check the first time and second time. Leaving someone unpaid that long is super unacceptable.

      2. Eldritch Office Worker*

        They were legally required to pay her in a certain time frame and absolutely should have cut checks the other times. I’m glad payroll recognizes the severity of the issue but they need to do some internal housekeeping and make sure payroll employees know how to handle these situations.

        2. Candi*

          And aren’t covering stuff up. I’m guessing that’s what happened the first time around -the payroll employee didn’t alert their manager that a check needed to be cut now, but fixed the problem (they thought or not really) instead of fessing up to the screw-up. There’s stories all over this page about payroll/HR screwing up and not wanting to deal with it appropriately, and stories all over the site of employees making some often big foulups and trying to deal with the problem themselves instead of alerting management when they really need to.

          Wouldn’t surprise me a bit if the employee Jane was dealing with is either on a PIP or dismissed for that much of a screwup.

  294. I've Escaped Cubicle Land*

    So Jane starts a new job and doesn’t get paid not just once but twice? And after she alerts HR to the problem the next check again fails to deposit? I’m reading that as 3 times the company messed up. If I was Jane and this was a new job I’d start thinking that company might not be legit. I’d probably be on the phone with the Dept. of Labor. And I’d let company know that I’d be happy to resume work when I actually got paid the back pay. Not wait tell next check. And yes, if next check messed up too I’d be filing paper work with Dept. of Labor and not showing up to the office until I was paid and I’d use the down time to send out resumes like crazy. I hope Jane leaves a Glassdoor review about OP on the way out. OP please use this as a learning opportunity for you. You need to look really deep and wonder what went wrong to give you such archaic views.

  295. Anonosaurus*

    Many years ago, I hired s contractor and the payroll firm messed up their pay. As in they didn’t get paid. The payroll firm said they couldn’t run payroll for another few days so I asked our finance team to cut a check meantime to get the guy through the weekend. They didn’t want to and at one point I nearly wrote him a check from my own account (although eventually we got it sorted without that). And I apologized, repeatedly and profusely. The contractor was polite but firm – if it wasn’t sorted out he wasn’t coming back. And if I had been him, I’d have said the same thing, and I didn’t blame him in the least. Someone comes to work, they get paid. If that doesn’t happen it has to get fixed as a priority. The idea that someone who firmly but appropriately sets her boundaries on this fundamental aspect of employment is somehow above herself and needs a slapping down – well, that’s out of touch. To be polite.

  296. Sleepless*

    Back when I was young, dumb, and put up with a lot of crap, I worked for a small business whose owner did payroll every 2 weeks. Period. Only problem was, one other person and I were salaried employees who got paid monthly. Boss couldn’t be bothered to write two checks by themselves once a month, so he paid us every other two week period. Trouble is, that would have eventually crept into us getting paid more than once every 30 days. His solution? Twice a year our paychecks had a 6 week interval so our check were two weeks late. I could usually manage, but it was tight. My coworker had to borrow money from his parents to make his house payment and then pay them back. I remember fuming about this, but again, I was young and put up with a lot of crap.

    On the other hand, this same boss gave me a raise once and forgot to change it in the payroll, so my next two checks didn’t reflect the new pay rate. (Why didn’t I say anything? Because I put up with a lot of crap.) He felt so terrible about this that he put the back amount into my next check plus something like $800 as a goodwill gesture, and left me a note with a profuse apology.

  297. Robin Ellacott*

    It seems very likely that Jane will see this. It’s outrageous enough to get reported elsewhere, and I’m sure Jane has been telling friends about her paycheque woes, and someone will read it and say “hey, this sounds like what happened to you!” Jane may decide she prefers to transfer departments or quit if she connects this letter to her manager.

    Also, I would be worrying (if I were the LW) about the fact that HR must have noticed the fact that this manager was more upset about the staff member who wasn’t paid seeming uppity than the fact that they were not paid. That would be a red flag for many HRs and might be something they pass on to management.

    So if you made it this far down in the comments, LW, maybe have a chat with HR and say you realize you had some wrong ideas about the company’s obligations here and wanted to learn.

      1. Candi*

        Well, reported isn’t necessarily wrong, considering how past stories have gone viral. Graduation boss being one of them.

  298. Ms. Ann Thropy*

    Wow. That’s an impressively wrong take on the LW’s part. Jane works for money. She trades her labor for her employer’s capital. That is the explicit arrangement of employment. Employer failed at a basic task when it didn’t pay her. It was a huge fail the second time. Jane’s reaction was understandable and appropriate. The company’s response was appropriate. The only inappropriate response was from the LW, who should not concern herself with whether Jane “needs” her pay. Jane earned it, and she is owed it.

  299. Katherine*

    You know what’s so weird? This reminds me of two letters: the same ones I see mentioned many times in the comments: Leap Year and the college graduation. Isn’t it insane that in all three of those letters, the boss/letter writer is NOT writing with even a smidgen of self-doubt? not one of them says “Am I wrong here? Am I off base?” All three are full steam ahead, “Alison, help me figure out how to let this employee know how wrong it is to want to go to your college graduation/get the same employee benefits as everyone else/get paid on time. The three most unreasonable, off-base, 100% in the wrong letter writers, and not one of them with even the tiniest doubt of his/her rightness.

    1. idwtpaun*

      There was also the fairly recent letter-writer who demoted a long-standing employee because one of her new hires started some sort of Machiavellian campaign to take over her life and business. There was no question with that letter that the comments and Alison’s advice were only going to go one way. But we did get surprising updates about it! So maybe there’s a remote possibility the letterwriter will see this thread, probably think we’re all wrong, take it to a friend they respect who’ll tell them the same thing Alison did and finally clue in how off-base they are.

      1. Observer*

        And the one who was mad that her Irish employee didn’t “understand” Irish customs, and quit after being pinched twice as a “celebration” of “Irish” customs.

    2. ecnaseener*

      I admit that’s my favorite genre of response, the “this isn’t the response I think you were expecting…” Because they ARE clearly expecting total validation.

  300. Lea*

    Also payroll should have cut her a check the FIRST time the employee messed up. That’s why she escalated in the first place!

    That manager just hates Jane and is probably threatened. Wow.

    1. MissBaudelaire*

      I don’t want to get into fan fiction territory, but I really am curious about why Letter Writer is so certain that Jane was being disrespectful and is too big for her britches and why their jaw really dropped when Jane said “I am not working for no pay.”

      Like… Would LW feel that way if it was an older person? Or a man? What’s up with it being so startling that Jane actually expected to be paid?

      Maybe LW *should* send her on to another department, since LW things employees should be grateful just to be there. Hopefully Jane gets someone who believes in employees getting paid on time.

  301. ecnaseener*

    This reminds me of a quote I saw somewhere, about how “respect” can mean either respect for authority or for personhood depending on context, and authority figures tend to conflate the two. LW is all upset that Jane’s being “rewarded” for her lack of “respect” for authority (despite that her wording sounds SUPER respectful) and fails to recognize how disrespectful it would be to NOT try to make it up to her.

    1. A Fair Take On the Unfair*

      “Sometimes peple use ‘respect’ to mean ‘treating someone like a person’ and sometimes they use ‘respects’ to mean ‘treating someone like an authority.’

      And sometimes people who are used to being treated like an authority say ‘if you won’t respect me I won’t respect you’ and they mean ‘if you won’t treat me like an authority I won’t treat you like a person’.

      And they think they’re being fair but they aren’t, and it’s not okay.”

      It’s the best take on authority I’ve ever seen, and it’s exactly right here. The amount of “she should know her place” flying in the face of compassion and understanding really undermines the point proved by the LW here.

  302. Middle Name Jane*

    WOW. This is not okay. You don’t know Jane’s financial situation. Plenty of people would be in a real bind if they missed a paycheck. Her not being able to pay her bills is not her fault if she doesn’t receive the paychecks she worked for. So, yes, it is the company’s responsibility.

    But it really doesn’t matter what her financial situation is. Messing up someone’s paycheck *more than once* is inexcusable. The company is in the wrong. Jane is right. This can’t happen again.

    I started a new job earlier this year, and my first paycheck was messed up due to the company getting my bank account number wrong by 1 digit. My manager immediately fixed it, and my paycheck posted to my account within a few hours. That’s how you fix payroll mistakes.

    1. Colette*

      Even if she has a large amount in savings, she shouldn’t have to spend those savings to subsidize the company.

    2. CW*

      And that’s how you handle payroll mistakes. Not like Jane’s situation where they took a MONTH and missed her first THREE paychecks. That is when it becomes (very) inexcusable.

  303. TiredMama*

    Worst manager of the year candidate right here. And to use a phrase like “big britches”? Wow. Condescending much?

  304. Kevin Sours*

    “Should I wait a while before suggesting she transfer to a different department”
    OP. I suspect that Jane is *way* ahead of you here.

    1. ecnaseener*

      I sure hope so, but it sounds like LW may not have shown their true feelings yet. Jane, if you’re reading this, run!!!

  305. MI Dawn*

    Kudos to both the HR person and the Payroll person who realized this was a BAD THING and took care of it immediately, even going above and beyond (paid time to go to the bank to deposit a check). Because checks often take time to clear, thank goodness they also gave her funds from the emergency fund.

    OP: You are WAY in the wrong. Jane isn’t young and disrespectful. Jane is young and very in control of her life and finances. The fact that you are dissing her that way shows you do not have what it takes to be a good manager.

    1. Observer*

      even going above and beyond (paid time to go to the bank to deposit a check).

      While I agree that HR and the head of payroll handled this well, I would not call this “above and beyond”. It’s the basics to help make the employee whole.

  307. a seyssel*

    “I’m not comfortable with one of my new staff members and how overconfident she is.”

    OK, a lot of people make that mistake when they’re young.

    “Just today she asked for a meeting with me and our payroll manager.”

    I would have just shot HR an email. A formal meeting sounds a bit much, but maybe that’s just my office culture. Go on.

    “Jane was able to show emails back and forth where she checked in with the payroll employee and asked if it was fixed, which they confirmed it was. Today was payday and Jane didn’t get paid”

    Now I understand why she wanted a meeting. It’s an ongoing problem she was escalating. So did she drop F-bombs or something?

    “Neither payroll nor I knew anything about it until today. ”

    But the emails?

    “The payroll manager was heavily in agreement, but I was speechless that she’d speak to management like that.”

    Like what? Did she use a threatening tone that doesn’t translate to text well, or is it really that she was direct rather than deferential? Not that the opinions of strangers on the internet matter, but my whole opinion depends on the answer to that question.

    “I just don’t think it’s the company’s responsibility to give her more than what she’s earned (the extra $500 from the employee emergency relief fund) to fix things for her if she overspent or didn’t prioritize her bills or save smartly.”

    This is where you lost me. It’s not that she didn’t use her money wisely and thus couldn’t weather a rough time (not that it’s her employer’s business), it’s that she was experiencing the rough time because of her employer. This is a capitalist economy. That means Jane owns her labor, which she sells to your company for an agreed-upon price. Your company hasn’t been holding up its end of the bargain by paying that price. She’s not a serf beholden to the lord of the estate. I’m very unclear on whether you take umbrage with way she addressed this, or the fact that she addressed this at all.

    “We also don’t know if she is actually experiencing a financial hardship or just claiming she was.”

    Doesn’t matter, but after the last few years, two months without pay would have me experiencing a financial hardship. My rainy day fund is all rained out.

    “I’m getting tired of the respect gap I’m seeing with younger staff.”

    Get off my lawn. OK, I’m kidding there. I can’t comment on your company’s new hires since I don’t work there, but I don’t see it coming from Jane in this letter.

    “I’m not comfortable having her on my team since it’s obvious she doesn’t understand she’s entry-level and not in charge.”

    I need more evidence of this. Since I’ve never met the woman I will grant the possibility she’s adversarial, but if she is, this wasn’t a good example.

    “Should I wait a while before suggesting she transfer to a different department?”

    I’m tempted to say that I agree one of you needs to go. For all I know you two have a fundamental personality clash that isn’t going to be resolved, so transferring her to a department where she’ll thrive might be a good idea, but don’t do it to punish her. I get that she blind-sided you with this, but I can also see why she may have thought you didn’t need to be involved in this situation until it escalated so far she may need to leave because of it. Jane needed her manager supporting her on this, but her manager reflexively took the company’s side, and is now stretching for reasons Jane was wrong. Why do you NEED her to be wrong so much?

    1. MuseumChick*

      I love this. Breaking down a post line by line, especially in a situation like this, I think really helps highlight where the LW is wrong and why they are wrong.

    2. ArtsyGirl*

      I also love the disconnect of “Jane is young and her position is entry level” with “how does she not have more than two months of savings available for when we fail to pay her.”

    3. Kevin Sours*

      Her manager *didn’t* take the company’s side. The company’s side was “we screwed up in an inexcusable way, how can we make that right”. Her manager took the side of “Respect my Authoritah!”. The entire letter is about how a young woman was insufficiently obsequious to her manager.

    4. Observer*

      but her manager reflexively took the company’s side, and is now stretching for reasons Jane was wrong

      It’s not even the company’s side. As the Payroll Manager and HR made clear. The *company’s side* according to the was “No, this is messed up and we are fixing it NOW. Here’s your check, and here is what we can do to help clear the problems we’ve caused.” Because that really is the only appropriate way to handle this.

    5. Candi*

      I started laughing halfway through this. This is awesome.

      On “taking the company’s side”, I’m thinking that you mean the side OP thought the company should be on. I bet OP was gobsmacked when HR told them Jane was very, very right.

  308. LondonLady*

    This happened at a 40-employee, family-owned firm where I managed a small team of young professionals. One month the payroll did not happen. The CEO sent round an email saying there was a glitch and we’d be paid double next month. By lunchtime several of my direct reports had told me they’d be homeless by then if they did not have rent money. They were not irresponsible, just living in a costly city on modest salary. I spoke to the CEO (as did others) and he quickly regrouped and said he’d ensure the salaries were paid in the next 48 hours, which they were.

    This is one situation where the deference and understanding should always be from the managers (who are more likely to be financially secure and have other stakes in the company) to the employees (who may reasonably be utterly reliant on being paid in full, on time).

    1. Candi*

      Sounds like your CEO didn’t “get” the importance of pay at the lower levels, but when issued a reality check, he knew he needed to issue checks.

      I hope he was that teachable all the time. If he was, that’s a pretty good boss.

  309. Nate*

    I kept waiting for the part where the employee was disrespectful, and it just… never came.

    OP: if this happened the way you say it did, your employee was extremely professional. Whereas you, with comments like “too big for her britches,” are the one who is extremely UNprofessional.

  310. Feral Fairy*

    Wow, this is just horrific. How would the LW feel if they weren’t paid for a month? You mention that she is entry level but at the same time you expect her to have savings to cover the a month of not getting paid while she is working?

    The fact that this happened not once but twice goes beyond a mistake and is indicative of serious incompetence on the part of payroll. As her boss, you should be advocating for her. I commend Jane for asserting herself and I also think that any reasonable person including myself would have reacted the same way to not getting a paycheck, bringing the issue to payroll’s attention, and then not receiving the next paycheck. You are lucky she still works for you. This letter doesn’t mention anything negative about the quality of her work. As Allison, your problems all seem to be based in a frankly antiquated idea that employees must be docile and submissive even at the expense of their livelihood.

    I am going to try to be constructive here, but honestly your bizarre reaction to an employee raising serious concerns and asserting her right (which is a legal right) to be paid on time makes me wonder how you would handle employees’ bringing other serious issues to your attention. Your team has seen how poorly this was handled and they will make note of it and specifically your role.

    My suggestions are:
    1. Apologize to the employee. And I mean a sincere apology acknowledging that as her manager, you should have advocated for her more and been more accountable.
    2. Actually advocate for her. Go to the payroll person’s boss and ask what can be done to ensure that this never happens again.
    3. Most importantly, do some deep reflection on how you lead your team. Specifically examine the belief that employees must be deferential to their bosses including yourself. Take inventory of times in the past and present where this attitude has had a negative impact on your colleagues and direct reports. Use this as an opportunity to grow and become a better boss.

    1. Feral Fairy*

      I actually missed the part where HR advocated for the employee to LW. HR was completely reasonable and did their job and I hope they made note of the LW’s absurd complaint about Jane. For the HR person that should be a red flag.

  311. L*

    In this thread (by which I just mean the post):

    “Generation gap” aka more seasoned coworkers being flabbergasted the youth will not stand for being as taken advantage of and stepped on as we all got used to when we were younger (and honestly good for them!!)

    The “labor shortage” right now (which we know anecdotally at least now that stories are coming in from folks who are applying everywhere with those “now hiring” signs and getting either zero callbacks or straight up lied to at-interview about actual wages vs advertised wages) is actually a “I’m not going to be taken advantage of, underpaid, and put in danger anymore” shortage. The pandemic taught a lot of us we don’t have to take it anymore and there’s no reason we should.

    1. A Fair Take On the Unfair*

      Yeah, I definitely see “labor shortage? people are just lazy!” vibes in this: the employer is always right, and it’s the employee’s job to deal with it.

      Not a good look.

    2. Candi*

      The Recession made employers lazy and self-confident about how badly they could treat employees.

      Now the rubber band is finally snapping back -with impact.

    1. ecnaseener*

      I think Alison’s said in the past that she doesn’t include letter writers in the contest, since that’s not really a fair consequence of asking for advice (no matter how obnoxiously!)

    2. Rainy*

      The bracket is going to be ROUGH this year, but right now I’d be willing to bet on “Respect mah authoritay” boss here to sweep it.

    1. Petty Patty*

      Yeah, I could have sworn Alison said something once about she doesn’t publish letters she thinks are fake. So she must have a reason to think this one was real.

      1. Eldritch Office Worker*

        Because this is completely believable and many of us have worked with the person who would have written this

        1. CW*

          I have worked with not one, but two such bosses. So this sadly doesn’t surprise me, but it still really bothers me that some bosses would do this and think it is okay.

    2. Camellia*

      Letter writers who are managers sometimes come into the comments to say they wrote to “Ask a Manager” because they thought she would side with the manager.

    3. Nea*

      Alison has had several letter writers who expect to be told “yes, I as a management person recognize that you as a management person are absolutely right; employees are lesser beings who shouldn’t kick up a fuss over little things like being treated equally or paid.” I’m thinking of the LW who was flabberghasted when a good employee quit because she wasn’t allowed to attend her own graduation, or the person who didn’t understand that yes, the company birthday policy was discriminating against the person with a leap year birthday, or (my personal fave) “I ‘unmanaged’ one of my employees for busting up the fun family I’d built at work.”

      Once someone has gotten into the mindset that management is always right and supreme, they expect Alison to agree with them and explain how (in this case) HR and PR are showing weakness.

      1. KateM*

        Managed out the employee for making them look bad when that employee was specially hired to salvage this team who cared more about fun at work than work, if I remember correctly.

  314. Just stoppin' by to chat*

    This is one of those letters that seems like it should be fake since someone can’t really think this way. Sadly though, it likely is very real :(

    1. Mental Lentil*

      I’ve met plenty of people that think this way, including the employer who told me if he could get away with paying me less than minimum wage, he would.

      People. Have you met many? There are definitely a lot like this. I really suspect that LW does not read Alison’s blog much (or at all) though, because anybody who’s spent any amount of time could see where Alison would be by the time they got to the end of the letter.

  315. Yvette*

    “I think Jane would be better suited in a different department.” Yes, yes she would, but not for the reason you think.

  316. lb*

    OP comin’ in HOT for worst boss of the year!

    Seriously, what did you want Jane to do? Sit idly by and wait to get eventually, maybe get paid? (And if she had — wouldn’t you be right back her writing a letter about how she should have had some backbone & demanded the situation be fixed? Methinks yes!) It sounds like you have an inherent bias toward Jane, whether due to age, gender, race, or a combination thereof, and you should confront that in yourself.

    1. ecnaseener*

      No, no, not idly. Just deferentially. “I hate to bother you, but I’m afraid I still haven’t been paid. Could you find it in your heart to consider paying me, O Honorable Payroll Manager?”

  317. Delphine*

    On the bright side, everyone aside from the LW handled this correctly, from HR to Jane (although the folks at payroll should not have made the same mistake a second time). And Jane was ready to walk over this, which tells us that she’s a great advocate for herself. The downside is that Jane has no idea how out of touch her boss (LW) is and may not be on her guard about the potential damage LW could do…

    1. Candi*

      From the sound of the emails, Jane was in touch with one specific payroll employee that was handling her case. I hope said employee is now on a PIP, at the least for failing to loop in their manager -this problem likely wouldn’t have continued if payroll employee’s “superiors” had known to check up on the work. (I’m theorizing this from the whole problem being a surprise to Head of Payroll.)

  318. Coco*

    When I first read this headline, I imagined Jane screaming and cursing at people, tipping over a table, throwing a chair, and smashing her keyboard in half. That type of reaction would have been inappropriate. But it sounds like she just… talked to you about it in a concerned tone? That’s a totally normal and reasonable response. HR did the correct thing here. This Letter Writer seems very out of touch.

    1. CW*

      Jane totally handled it professionally. And she put her foot down because she needed to. OP’s reaction is wrong, and it sounds like someone is entitled, but it isn’t Jane.

  319. Phony Genius*

    It seems that the writer is uncomfortable with how the company handled this situation. If you are uncomfortable with how your company handles things like this, maybe it’s time to find another company.

  320. Meghan*

    The kindest take is that this person is new to management and has been previously mismanaged so they think their treatment of subordinates is appropriate.

    But somehow I think this is just a bad manager and I look forward to seeing this one at the end of year list…

  321. Ritz*

    sometimes people use ‘respect’ to mean ‘treating someone like a person’ and sometimes they use ‘respect’ to mean ‘treating someone like an authority’
    and sometimes people who are used to being treated like an authority say ‘if you won’t respect me I won’t respect you’ and they mean ‘if you won’t treat me like an authority I won’t treat you like a person’
    Author: Autistic Abby / Stimabby (Tumblr)

    I think you’re messing up your respects here. Your employee isn’t respecting you as the supreme authority on whether she gets paid and when – why should she, there’s an authority on that called the law – and therefore you don’t think she ought to be an employee.

    Weird stuff. Retaliation for making a wage claim is illegal – you should not do that.

  322. The_artist_formerly_known_as_Anon-2*

    I worked for a company that “lost” my paychecks three times over four months. I suspected that this was a ploy to get me to quit… but it didn’t work. Payroll began arguing “it’s all YOUR fault” for not wanting to be on direct deposit.

    DD wasn’t mandatory. I preferred to receive a check because I have a checking account, two savings accounts, and between my wife and me four brokerage accounts. On any given payday I didn’t know where I was going to put the money. And, unlike the new hire, I wasn’t living hand-to-mouth. Also, part of payroll was offshore and I didn’t want to divulge any of my primary bank account numbers.

    I really didn’t mind because here in Massachusetts, we have something called “treble damages” – so if, say, the company owed me $5000 , and they didn’t pay, and they dragged their feet and obstructed my efforts, they’d owe me $15,000.

    Here in Massachusetts, non-payment of wages is CRIMINAL, in law. So employers based here and paying employees here are careful – unfortunately, the company I was working for that was screwing around with my pay was in another state. If they were based here in Boston, they wouldn’t DARE mess with this.

  323. KellifromCanada*

    Whoa whoa whoa! I’ve worked in Payroll for many years and OP is off the charts wrong here. We make mistakes and the administrators in our client departments make mistakes, but it’s not the employee who should have to pay for that. This employee was owed her pay as quickly as it could be processed and an apology from her employer, which she got. How OP thinks this is too much or inappropriate is beyond me.

    In regards to the employee being disrespectful, she was not. She was firm, and that was appropriate to the circumstances. As employees, as much as we might enjoy our work, we are there because we are paid, and we need to be paid accurately and on time. People’s personal finances are not our concern as their managers, other than the fact that we should assume everyone needs their pay on payday. Just wow.

  324. I'm Not Phyllis*

    I have nothing to add, but I came here to say how perfect this answer is, and how impressed I am with both this company’s payroll and HR teams. The immediate action they took to correct the problem was spot-on … people make mistakes, yes – and it’s not the making them twice that bothered me – it’s that the employee checked and was assured that it was corrected when it hadn’t been. That is what takes it to the level of not only cutting a check, but of going the extra mile to correct the error.

    Thanks for the brilliant response!

    1. Coder von Frankenstein*

      Going the extra mile to correct the error should have happened with the *first* error. And part of that extra mile should have been making damn sure it didn’t happen again.

      Perhaps it’s because I work in IT, where the sign that we’re doing our jobs well is that no one even thinks about us. But a payroll department that acts to address an error–after the second time!–is a lot less impressive to me than a payroll department that doesn’t make the error in the first place.

  325. DrMouse*

    I’m sure this has been covered somewhere in here, but the transfer that the LW mentions….isn’t that pretty clearly retaliation?

    1. WantonSeedStitch*

      Yup. I think HR needs to have a STRONG word with OP. OP’s ideas on how to handle this whole situation are putting the company at legal risk.

    2. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Yep, which makes the last question “how long should I wait to retaliate so it doesn’t look illegal”

      1. StressedButOkay*

        Exactly. To push out a stellar employee whose only issue stems from the company side of things – that’s clearly going to be retaliation on the side of OP.

        1. Fran Fine*

          And Jane’s savvy enough to see this for exactly what it is, so go ahead and try it, OP. You’ll be the one missing paychecks because you’ll end up out of a job.

          1. Candi*

            I suspect that Jane had her phone’s browser loaded with pages from various “why it’s illegal not to pay me” sites in case anyone tried to give her a hard time (like some of the payroll/HRs in commentator stories). “What is retaliation and how to document and report it” is likely on many of the same sites.

            I wonder if HR is taking a hard look at the retention vs transfer/resign rates in OP’s department after this.

  326. Baska*

    Oh, wow. I handle payroll for the small non-profit I work for, and even though I’ve been doing it for six years, I am always legit terrified that I will screw up someone’s direct banking information when entering it, and that someone won’t be paid because of me. It’s one of my biggest job-related fears. To find out that someone wasn’t paid for THREE PAY PERIODS is just beyond the pall. This is money people need to live and pay their bills. If someone came to me and told me that I’d entered their banking information wrong and they wouldn’t be paid, I’d have been jumping through every possibly hoop to make sure they were paid immediately. I am so, so sorry you had to go through this, Jane.

    1. Kate in Colorado*

      I used to handle payroll as well, and this is exactly the kind of scenario that would give me nightmares! I took my co-workers’ pay VERY seriously. Sounds like HR understood the situation, and I’m glad Jane was taken care of. OP has a lot to learn about being a good manager (and a thoughtful, decent human in general).

    1. WantonSeedStitch*

      One of the letters linked above (the one from the person who lost their best employee when they denied that employee the chance to go to her own college graduation) has over 2,o00.

      1. Campfire Raccoon*

        Two hours. It’s been two hours since I first looked and there were 21 comments. Now there are 1081. **cracks neck** Clearly no work will be done by me today.

    2. Hlao-roo*

      Search for my username on this page. I commented above with a link to the most-commented-on letter I could find which has over 2,000 comments. I’m curious if this one will surpass it.

  328. Hufflepuffy*

    Could the letter writer be someone else in the company trying to show how bad this boss is? It seems odd that someone so clearly, deeply, completely wrong could be a regular reader of this column or have the self awareness to even write in asking about transferring Jane. Hard to believe this is a legit letter.

    1. Candi*

      Alison’s gotten letters before from people who admit that they just went hunting for whatever on the net and stumbled onto the site. Most of them are clearly expecting “you are the wondrous wise one of the age and all who oppose you should fall and tremble at your feet” type answers.

      Heck, graduation boss sent their letter in after the intern petition one went viral. Apparently they thought bash-on-clueless-millennial-workers was the thing here. Or something.

      And I do believe someone could be this clueless. One of these days I need to tell the story of how my mother borked half the new library database back in the days of CRT monitors with orange text on black screens. Then got upset she was expected to put in OT (salaried exempt) to help fix it. The difference is OP sounds somewhat malicious instead of a dingbat.

    2. Cat Lover*

      Alison has gotten letters before where people haven’t read her blog and assumed “ask a manager” = “side with the manager”.

      1. Katherine*

        Yes! The woman who “unmanaged” the outstanding employee because she was no fun and ruining everyone else’s good times explicitly said “I thought that ‘ask a manager’ would side with the manager.” Apparently she didn’t think about it long enough to realize there was more than one manager to side with in her tale of woe.

  329. Katherine*

    “Her work is great and she needed very little training but she’s got very big britches.”

    This sentence, right at the top, is also a humdinger. OP wants to *transfer* this employee because she wanted to get paid on time- AFTER ADMITTING she’s a great employee. I mean, who cares if she’s good at her JOB? She doesn’t kowtow to me enough! Priorities, please!

  330. Rbot*

    Wow…

    I didn’t get paid on one pay cycle because apparently there was an error in the system that made it so my department didn’t exist. I brought it up to my supervisor who reacted like OP — “you shouldn’t be so strident about getting paid” (she got paid out of a different department so her paycheck hadn’t been missed). HR fixed it by cutting checks immediately, but I still remember that supervisor with extreme distaste, and anger about her cavalier reaction to us not getting paid.

    She also held me back far longer than was necessary, made it so I was basically doing busy work at all times, and generally didn’t utilize any of my skills properly (I say this as someone who moved into a different department and now am integral to a lot of my company). I hope Jane can find a mentor in a different manager and switch departments soon, cause OP isn’t gonna manage her at all.

    1. The_artist_formerly_known_as_Anon-2*

      Note that regardless of the company’s situation = MANAGEMENT ALWAYS GETS PAID.

    2. CW*

      “You shouldn’t be so strident about getting paid” – how about the fact that it is also illegal not to pay on time? That’s besides the point, except that that law exists to protect employees’ rights. We all work to live and pay our bills. Your boss, and Jane’s boss, should not even be managing. Period.

  332. msk1924*

    OP seems to have missed an important part of managing people—you have to advocate for them. 25 years ago, our company had payroll issues occasionally that might leave someone shorted $20 or so in their pay. The rule about cutting a check was that it had to be for more than half the paycheck or the employee would be paid the short amount in their next paycheck. So,e of my staff could not wait. $20 could mean not being able to buy a full weeks groceries, especially back then. I had to push payroll to cut even the small amounts. I’m happy to say that my boss backed the employee and me.

  333. Sincerely Raymond Holt*

    I kept waiting for the part that Jane raised holy hell, berated the payroll employee until she cried, posted nastigrams all over the company slack channel and on her personal facebook page, kicked a litter of puppies and set the office on fire. Since she didn’t, I guarantee that manager is over 55, white, and earns enough to have a stay-at-home wife and never had to worry about bills.

  334. The_artist_formerly_known_as_Anon-2*

    I might also add, the highly fictitious “Office Space” scene, where the downsizing crew found out that Milton Waddams had been fired some years before, but no one told him or processed the termination, so he was still on the payroll.

    And they (‘the two Bobs”, and Lumberg) thought the best way to handle the problem was just stop his paychecks and the problem would work itself out.

    I did have to remind my manager on the above scenario = “Office Space” was NOT a management tutorial. It was a satire to demonstrate how NOT to do things.”

    1. OyHiOh*

      I’m a volunteer judge for DECA – prepares students as business leaders and entreprenuers – and I have students routinely (routinely) cite The Office as an example of good management.

      It’s impossible to know from the judge’s side of the table if teachers bring up The Office as a what-not-to-do and students misunderstand, or if their teachers are ligit offering up The Office as a fine example of how to lead but either way, it horrifies me slightly every year. I am certainly not the only judge to find it so, either.

    2. Candi*

      (points to 9 to 5) There’s a nice contrast of how a company becomes much more prosperous when management isn’t being jerkwads. (Though I do not recommend tying up your boss to accomplish this progress.)

  335. X-Man*

    I genuinely felt like I missed something in between Jane’s statement and OPs response that they were “shocked she would talk to her superiors this way.” I really had to go back and check to see if I somehow skipped a part where Jane said or did anything remotely wrong.

    OP…check yourself.

  336. Ambie*

    How about if you are new employee and your new employer can’t get you paid correctly several times? That is a red flag. The fact that HR did as much as they did signals accountability and acknowledgement that this is unacceptable. I wonder if LW was new in a position and had this experience. Kudos to Jane for being direct in this situation.

  338. AnotherSarah*

    A lot hinges on the idea that “stuff happens.” Yes, LW, it does! But it shouldn’t happen 3 times, and it sounds like HR understands this. And knowing that “stuff happens” is different from not speaking up about it, not laying out the stakes clearly when it does happen, and not trying to make it change.

  339. Kate*

    How Jane handled this and what Jane said is EXACTLY how she should have handled this situation! Kudos to her for saying so eloquently and appropriately precisely what needed to be done:

    “I appreciate your apology, but I need you both to understand that this can’t happen again. This has put me under financial strain and I can’t continue to work for COMPANY if this isn’t corrected today.”

  340. A Feast of Fools*

    I’ll go back and read most of the comments but… this isn’t real. Right??

    This CAN’T be real. There’s no way someone can be this… [string of negative adjectives]… and still be in a position of power in a company where it seems no one else is that bonkers.

    I just can’t wrap my mind around someone having such an outrageous, antiquated, *authoritarian* view of the modern workplace. What the actual eff??

    1. CaviaPorcellus*

      OP is actually an important person and not some random two-month coffee gopher, so OBVIOUSLY their reaction would have been appropriate, regardless.

      (/sarcasm disclaimer, just in case)

  342. Candi*

    OP, I sincerely recommend you read up on both FLSA and Department of Labor payroll regulations. Your company legally screwed up, and payroll and HR are obviously aware of it.

    I like the way “kids these days” aren’t sitting down and taking it like their predecessors did. As long as they approach it professionally and respectfully like Jane did, I’m cheering them all the way.

    I do know what “kids these days” are like. I’m in my third year of college as a nontraditional student. I’ve been attending classes with kids in the same age range or slightly older than my two. Kids these days are awesome. Tolerant, considerate, courageous, intelligent, aware of the world around them, and not willing to sit and take what previous generations did in the name of “tradition”, “not rocking the boat”, and “the status quo.” I love them. (In a strictly platonic way.)

  343. Zillah*

    OP, you’re right that people do make mistakes. Even big mistakes don’t mean that someone is automatically a terrible person, and if the payroll person had written in saying “I feel terrible about this huge mistake, how do I make it right?” I’m guessing the overall response would be “yes this is serious because abc, do xyz to fix it, and make absolutely sure it doesn’t happen again going forward,” not “this mistake makes you a terrible malicious person, why do you like hurting employees?”

    But it doesn’t sound like Jane said anything like that, either! Saying “this mistake needs to be fixed and cannot happen again” doesn’t mean not understanding that mistakes happen – it means making it clear that the mistake needs to be addressed, and that’s very reasonable even when we’re not talking about something that’s this big a deal! The fact that mistakes happen doesn’t absolve you of the responsibility to recognize the ramifications of your mistakes and fix them.

  344. Former Retail Lifer*

    Years ago, I started a new job and somehow HR/payroll never got my new hire paperwork. It was faxed from our local site to the corporate office, and I witnessed it, but a ball was dropped somewhere. It took some strong words from my brand new boss, but she got payroll to cut a check and have it overnighted to me. On a Saturday. THIS is what I’d expect from my manager, ESPECIALLY after two pay periods.

  345. CaviaPorcellus*

    Part of me is hoping that Jane reads this site, recognizes her manager as OP, and gets her resume in order to find a different role.

    Then again, since HR did everything right and corrected their error with the appropriate apology, maybe Jane can advocate for switching to a different team. After all, her manager is uncomfortable working with her at this point, so it may be beneficial for all involved if she transferred.

  346. yala*

    I’m just…disgusted.

    It’s been a hot minute since I had such a VISCERAL reaction to a letter, let alone to a letter-writer. But the *nicest* thing I can say about this is that I’m disgusted with them.

    I would dearly love OP to explain exactly *where* they feel Jane overstepped. Calling a meeting to address a VERY SERIOUS ISSUE about a repeat problem that she had been assured would be corrected and wasn’t? Or saying the very true statement that “this can’t happen again.”

    Y’all. Didn’t pay her. For. A MONTH.

    Saying “this can’t happen again” is a statement of FACT. If you just stated working somewhere and not ONCE have they actually paid you what they legally owe you, and over a month has gone by…like. You might start wondering if they’re actually able to/going to pay you at all. If you’re going to have to go to court to get what you’re owed. And more importantly–if you can actually afford to stay there while they get their act together.

    There’s absolutely nothing wrong with how Jane handled this situation, and the fact that you feel that her advocating herself is getting “big britches” is…well, frankly a little horrifying in what it says about the sort of person you must be to work for. Is there no way an employee can ask for problems to be fixed that will please you?

  347. Cold Fish*

    These are the type of letter I really wish we got updates on Or the manager who was surprised their best employee quit when they wouldn’t give them 2 hours to go to their college graduation that is in the articles listed below the post. Did the OP’s read this and appreciate how in the wrong they were? Or would they still double down and try and argue how they were actually correct? I believe it is probably the latter but without an update I’ll hope for the former.

  348. Mina, The Company Prom Queen*

    Wow. Just…wow. OP is absolutely out of touch. I would never work for this manager. Alison’s advice is spot on. I just hope OP heeds Alison’s advice. If they don’t, they shouldn’t be surprised by the high attrition rate they will have (or they likely even have already).

  349. RJ*

    I already knew OP had some old-fashioned management beliefs but when I saw the phrase ‘respect gap’, I knew the comments were going to be amazing to read. This was the case. Jane was absolutely correct both in her approach and in her wording. I have been the payroll person who screwed up and I know how hard this situation can be on both sides. It is unacceptable that this happened once and to have it happen twice to a new employee is angering and disengaging.

    Times have changed OP and office deference isn’t the standard you seem to hold anymore. It is right and expected to push back, particularly when you haven’t gotten paid for work you’ve done at a new company when you are establishing relationships and work flow.

  350. RosyGlasses*

    Wow, oh wow. Payroll is one area where there just cannot be mistakes. In fact, Jane would be well within her rights to file a wage and hour complaint against your company where you could be paying penalties as well as back wages. In fact, its the responsibility of HR to correct this oversight IMMEDIATELY and not just wait for another pay cycle to correct the issue.

    Planning ahead is nice in theory – but she DID plan ahead in that she has a job to pay for her bills and her paycheck was supposed to come on a specific date/time to pay those bills. You are very, very wrong.

  351. Always Thinking. Often learning.*

    The answer from Alison was excellent. This is also an example of when HR gets it right which we all like to see. It is difficult to understand why any manager would take the stance the LW did here. We are all better when employees are able to advocate for themselves if needed and to do so in such a clear and helpful way. I imagine a flag on how well the manager is handling their role is now being considered.

    1. The_artist_formerly_known_as_Anon-2*

      Thinking,

      It was a no-brainer on HR’s part. HR’s role is to protect the company from bad situations.

      What they were dealing with is a payroll screw-up, which could have held the company responsible for a considerable amount of financial damages, and topped it with an arrogant manager who didn’t give a snit about the subordinate not receiving her pay.

      If HR did their job, after the payment to the employee, he/she was probably brought behind closed doors and heavily schooled/ warned.

      1. Candi*

        I wonder if HR started checking the retention rate in OP’s department. You just know that that’s probably a “get your year in and transfer/move on” department, and it’ll show.

  352. SJJ*

    So worries about the fiscal responsibility of an employee when you aren’t even paying your own bills (aka employees paycheck).

    Ok.

    ಠ_ಠ

  353. Maggie*

    Wow, major props to Jane for standing up for herself and being so clear about her needs! We love an assertive employee! And yes, letter writer, please take Alison’s advice to heart. You don’t want to lose a good employee because of a misguided attitude. The fact that you took the time to write this shows that you care deeply about your work, and I hope you can direct that care in a compassionate direction and become an advocate for your team!

  354. rbloom884*

    I can’t get over them trying to claim that the employee was being irresponsible because they had the nerve to rely on their income when it’s the company that is being irresponsible.

  356. Wanderland*

    I knew this was going to blow up. As always Alison was spot on. OP employment is a 2 way agreement. Employees agree to do the work and Employer agree to pay them. Employees have the right to advocate for themselves at any point, ESPECIALLY when they aren’t getting paid on time. Her personal financial situation is irrelevant and your assumptions about it are unwarranted. You need to seriously adjust your view about management and how employees advocate for themselves.

  357. Jean*

    LW, you’re not fit to empty Jane’s chamberpot. “Superiors,” lmao. Give me a break. Do everyone in your company a favor and retire already.

  358. Heffalump*

    If Jane had committed a serious screwup, the LW would have had no qualms about giving her a stiff talking-to, and presumably they would have expected her not to give any “lip” in return.

  359. Jaw dropped*

    Allison, thank you for the spanking this writer so richly deserved. My jaw dropped reading this. I have worked for people like this and accepted it. I’m really impressed with Jane’s ability to navigate this so professionally. Younger self would have been a sobbing mess and then apologized for their error. I’m so happy to see young women being a strong advocate for themselves. Letter writer, I hope you consider some management courses you can take to refresh yourself and then please go volunteer for an organization that serves the needy. Not all of us are privileged enough to miss two paychecks. And, even if we were, that’s way beyond the point. You need some humanity in your life.

  360. BabyElephantWalk*

    Wow. Allison is being too nice here. You and the payroll/HR department are the problem, NOT your employee. Full stop. It is completely unacceptable to not pay your employees as promised, and then be so overwhelmingly rude and judgy regarding the fact that your employees need to get paid as promised.

    I hope Jane leaves, only because she deserved to work someone with a boss who won’t get mad at her for expecting to be paid, and where she doesn’t have literally chase down her paycheque.

    1. WantonSeedStitch*

      It sounds like HR was actually very good about the situation, insisting a check be cut for the employee right away and providing gift cards ($500, not an insignificant amount) on top of that. I think they reacted exactly as they should have. They also stood up for the employee when the LW complained about her behavior!

  361. Old Cynic*

    I’m probably the only one, but I’m kind of hoping LWs reaction is, “Boy, Alison doesn’t get it, does she?” and suggests to Jane that she find another job in another department. I think that’s what it’s going to take for the company to reallocate LW to some other non management role.

  362. Anonymous Employee Abroad*

    My work once failed to pay me and one other employee for something like 3 months. And we were very low-paid in the organization (both earning teachers assistant pay, although I was working my professional job for them at that pay as well). I will admit, I failed to notice the lack of pay on month 1 because in the foreign country in which I worked it was surprisingly hard to get to an ATM to check balances and I had an advantage of living with family and not having to pay rent, and my gas and things were coming off a debit card and my insurance was being paid out of an American account. My coworker, however, was living on the edge barely making ends meet. They had to wait a MONTH each time to fix it because payday was once a month, full stop. It was always a mistyping of our bank info on their side (despite both of us having been paid correctly before, we were not new employees, this was they suddenly decided to change our bank info for no reason). My coworker tried to get them to pay the hundreds of euros of overdraughts she incurred over this 3 month period, and they blamed her and refused. I luckily incurred no overdraughts (but was able to borrow money for a 2 week break that happened in the middle so I could still go on my holiday). The kicker on all of this was I never once complained to management about this irresponsible HR accounting, but something like 3 months later, the person who had made all the mistakes tried to get ME fired for missing “three Tuesdays of work”. I mean seriously. THREE TUESDAYS! I worked the Mondays. It wasn’t 3 in a row. I just happened to be sick 3 Tuesdays that term. I wasn’t taking fake 3 day weekends. And this was in a country where they WANT you to take your sick leave. (In fact, I think they thought it suspicious because if it had been a local, they would have taken multiple days off each time, but the American in me stayed home, rested, and came back to work the very next day.)

  363. Analytical Tree Hugger*

    OP, you characterize Jane as being financially irresponsible for not being able to survive missing two months of pay. Given that, how would you characterize the company for missing two months of pay?

    Also, you seem like you would appreciate this sentiment: Respect is earned.

    When an entity, like an employer, clearly and unequivacally fails to meet an important responsibility, they lose their right to demand respect and have to re-earn trust and respect.

  364. RagingADHD*

    Why is the LW mad at Jane for wanting to get paid, but apparently has nothing but sympathy and support for the payroll person whose repeated mistakes illegally withheld Jane’s paychecks?

    Even after Jane politely pointed it out and was assured the error was corrected!

  365. Gregory S Capozzoli*

    Fellow viewers this post got me mad so my response is gonna be long. Y’all have been warned. This post was the kindest I could be. It was hard.

    OP Im saying this as nicely as I can for Allison’s sake not for yours. You have some NERVE as a manager, who I’m assuming is getting paid more than the new employee and who hasn’t had any issues with payroll, to not only be mad at her for speaking up about not getting paid by the company who as her manager YOU REPRESENT, but to then proceed to victim blame her (cause make no mistake she is the victim here not you) by criticizing her and making this a personal attack, about her spending habits and whether or not she is lying about being in hardship or not (none of which btw is any of your business nor do you have any proof to corroborate that theory outside her not being paid which is a legitimate reason for being in hardship). And then as if that wasn’t bad enough you proceed to make this be about “entitled young people” for standing up for what they are owed?!? What about entitled managers who think they own their employees cause that’s exactly what you are. Let me explain something to you. YOU are the reason why labor unions exist. YOU are the reason why the United States has a justifiably bad rep in regards to workers rights. YOU are the reason why the labor laws to help protect employees we do have exist. And of course it doesn’t surprise me that your immediate desire is to find a way to retaliate against her which is also illegal. Cause lets not mince words here that’s exactly what you are seeking by wanting to transfer her. Im honestly shocked Allison hasnt called you out on that as well so I will. (Im assuming she was so horrified by the entire premise of your post that it didnt click. I dont blame her it took me a sec for that to register too.)

    Here’s how it works: EMPLOYEE WORKS for you and YOU (as the employer) PAY HER what she is owed. So as you seem to be thinking she is not being respectful enough for having the audacity to want to be paid for her time, this entire time you have been talking about someone who is NOT an employee but a VOLUNTEER who literally out of the kindness of her heart has been here this entire time out of her own free time and charity and is willing to give y’all another chance despite not being paid. So instead of saying shes “disrespectful”, you should quite frankly be groveling at her feet praising her for showing you and the company mercy that y’all quite literally do not deserve. Because guess what she could easily have just left and not even bother telling the company, AND NO ONE WOULD BLAME HER when they found out why. Just like her “finances” isnt the company’s problem, your company’s inability to pay her is not HER problem! You cant even legally fire her (because to do that would imply that she was hired which she technically hasnt been hired because that implies that she has been paid for her time…which she wasnt) and if you tried to fire her she can take your company to court. And I assure you, she will win easily when the judge finds out why. The best advice I can tell you for your sake and more importantly, for the sake of your company and those under you, is that you step down because based on your question, You do NOT have what it takes to be a manager and i assure you I would NEVER want to work under someone like you. Be grateful that Allison kept you anonymous btw because I would have GLADLY blasted your post publicly to your employers and let them see the kind of manager they hired.

  366. Been There*

    She’s great at her work, was a quick learner, and appropriately put down a boundary for management. She did nothing wrong, and doesn’t need to kiss management’s backside. You’re the one in the wrong. She should be uncomfortable having someone like you as a boss.

  367. Don*

    What really cracks me up about this is that I have exactly zero doubt that LW would find it ENTIRELY reasonable to tell an employee “If you continue to fail to do the work assigned to you then you cannot work for this organization.”

    Not understanding that this is the flip side of the exact same coin (though with a pretty severe power imbalance with regards to how much an individual employee can hurt an organization by withholding labor vs an organization withholding pay) is depressingly common.

    Almost as funny was the “what sort of financially irresponsible person can’t afford to have their employer repeatedly fail to pay them their salary??!?”

  368. I need cheesecake*

    In the unlikely event you’re reading the comments, please read Leaders Eat Last by Simon Sinek.

    1. Candi*

      The title reminds me of near the end of The Horse and His Boy (the book) where the King of Archenland is telling Shasta and Corin how a true king takes care of his people, including, during times of famine, eating probably the leanest and scantiest of meals in the land.

  369. AshK434*

    This letter raised my hackles as soon as I saw Jane described as “over confident” by the OP. My spidey senses started tingling and I wondered how much gender and/or racial bias came into play with these unfair assessments of Janes character. Jane is honestly my hero and I love how direct she was with this problem. Hopefully one day directness will no longer be misconstrued as disrespect or overstepping boundaries

  370. JoAnna*

    It sounds to me like the OP is of the generation that perceives setting healthy boundaries as “disrespect.”

    OP, “I need to get paid reliably and regularly or else I can’t work here” is a reasonable and healthy boundary, not an unreasonable or disrespectful position.

  371. Daisy-dog*

    Good news to OP. I doubt Jane will want to be on your team for very long and will likely be successful in moving on to greener pastures – another department or another company.

  372. Stavy*

    The only thing that infuriates me is that probably this person that wrote the letter is on a corporate management position getting at least 50k salary and probably big bonuses claiming their employees’ work as their own.

  373. Elenna*

    Hey OP, imagine if your company had a contract with another company to make widgets (or whatever your company does) in exchange for money. And then imagine that for two months, the other company doesn’t actually pay you.

    Would your company keep producing the widgets anyways? Would they say “oh, well, the other company hasn’t been notified yet so it’s fine”? Would they say “well it doesn’t matter, we’re fiscally responsible and have the money to cover this loss until we get paid”?

    No! They’d obviously stop producing the widgets! Even if your company has money that could cover the loss, that doesn’t matter, you’re not going to do work without getting paid!

    Now consider the fact that, just like in that example, you’ve made a contract with Jane, where she does work in exchange for money. If the company isn’t holding up their end of the deal, there’s no reason for Jane to hold up hers.

  376. Sandman*

    OP, you should definitely move her to a new team as soon as possible. Maybe not for the reason you think, though.

  377. RCB*

    I don’t want to pile on, and don’t want to be totally rude to OP, but you need to find a new job. Your letter is so far outside of basic human decency that you shouldn’t be in charge of other people’s wellbeing. The tone of your letter shows that you probably aren’t going to enjoy Alison’s response or any of the feedback you’re receiving, but DO NOT SHOOT THE MESSENGER, and that includes your employee. Your employee was right, you were wrong, do not quietly take this out on your employee because of your mistake, you should bend over backwards going forward to hear out the employee and see what else you can learn from them, because this entry-level person knew more than you did with all your years of experience. Learn from this, or you’re doing yourself and all your employees a disservice.

  378. CommanderBanana*

    Also, since you pointed out a perceived “respect gap” from younger employees, I’m going to guess that you’re a member of a certain age group that likes to accuse younger employees of being entitled.

    Jane IS entitled to the wages your company agreed to pay her when she was hired. She’s so entitled to these wages, in fact, that it is illegal for the company to withhold them. But you seem to feel that you’re entitled to Jane’s work for free. So who is the entitled one here? It’s not Jane!

  379. Ryan*

    When HR corrects you without hesitation in favor of the employee over the company or management, you know you are seriously wrong. What are the odds that HR has had to listen to other ridiculous opinions from LW before?

    1. RagingADHD*

      What are the odds that HR has had to stop LW from doing (or enabling, or brushing under the rug) something completely illegal before?

  380. Art3mis*

    I had a (paid) intern in my training class this summer that didn’t get her first paycheck. She didn’t say anything until her second missed paycheck. I, her manager, HR, and payroll, all sprang into action to make sure she was taken care of. Hell even my husband offered to personally lend her some cash if she needed it. She’s young and didn’t realize she should have said something when the first check didn’t get deposited.

    I kind of feel like LW is the kind of manager also wondering why there’s a labor shortage.

    1. just a thought*

      Same. I was on the volunteer board and an intern emailed us a few days later that her check didn’t come through. We had to tell her, “Call us immediately THAT DAY when you don’t get it”. We got it to her quickly and fixed the problem.

      Our biggest job with a lot of the interns was teaching them to advocate for themselves and not default to using their own personal resources (laptop, petty cash, etc) for work purposes. Ask us when you need something and we will find a way for the organization to get it or pay for it. A lot of them wanted to work for non-profits and I’ve heard horror stories of employees being taken advantage of in some non-profits, so I was hoping to teach them not to accept that early.

  381. gmg22*

    I once had a similar issue to Jane’s, but with a freelance client — I would invoice them monthly and get a check on a regular schedule, but suddenly one month the check didn’t come through. I contacted their accounts people and they fixed it, but then the next month, same thing happened, again billed as a “mistake.” By month 3 it had become clear what was actually happening: The company was in financial trouble, it ended up going bankrupt, and I ended up eating $2,500. Jane was SPOT ON to see this as a potential huge red flag and to IMMEDIATELY assert that she needed to be promptly paid or else could not remain in Company’s employment.

  382. Empress Matilda*

    OP, I haven’t read all 1200+ comments at the time I’m writing this, so some of what I’m about to say has likely already been posted. But I have Some Thoughts that I need to share.

    As others have said, you can’t assume that Jane is mis-managing her money. A lot of people would have a hard time after missing two paycheques. And even if it doesn’t cause financial hardship, it’s still going to be a massive inconvenience for nearly everyone. For example, my mortgage and all my other bills are set to auto-pay on the same day I get paid from work, so if I didn’t get paid they would all be rejected as NSF. Even if I did have the money elsewhere, it would be a huge amount of my time to contact them all and get everything sorted out – which, by the way, would have to be during work hours because that’s when their offices are open. So now I can’t get my work done because I’ve been on hold with the insurance company for 45 minutes, and I still have to call the bank, the electric company, the internet provider…that’s easily an entire day’s worth of phone calls to fix this mistake. Then to have to do it all again at the next pay cycle? Hell no. And if my manager or payroll or anyone else thinks my tone isn’t respectful enough after all that? HELL no. There aren’t enough swear words in the world for what I would be thinking in that moment.

    1. Empress Matilda*

      Also, I don’t know if you regularly read AAM, but yours is a relatively long letter for what she usually posts here. Which isn’t a big deal on its own, it’s just that you seem to have a lot of anger towards someone who

      *you have only known for two months
      *does great work and needed very little training
      *is behaving quite reasonably and professionally under the circumstances

      So you might want to do some thinking about your own reaction here. What exactly is the problem? Do you think Jane was “overconfident” because she called a meeting to address her second missing cheque? What’s the issue with her saying she can’t continue to work somewhere that she isn’t getting paid? Do you really think payroll should have refused to help her out, just because she was rude? (To be clear, she wasn’t rude. But even if she was – so what? That doesn’t change the basic fact that payroll screwed up, and they have a legal and moral obligation to fix it.)

      Whatever your answers to the above, the next question should be *why* do you think that? Why are you so angry about this one incident? Is there something else going on with Jane that you haven’t told us about? Something going on elsewhere in the office, or in your personal life, that’s making you more than usually on edge? Because again, even if Jane was disrespectful, I think she had reason for it under the circumstances. It’s not ideal, sure, but also not worth a huge long letter to a workplace advice columnist about.

      And finally – what do you think she should have done? What would you have done differently, if it was your pay that was missing? What does “respectful” look like under the circumstances, and are you applying those standards equally to yourself and Jane?

  383. weasel007*

    I read this entry shortly after it was published and I think I sprained my eyebrow after reading. I was so happy that Allison’s response was as it was. Made me feel normal today ;)

  384. Kem*

    Omg this gave me a flash back. During my first “real” job , my first pay check wasn’t correct but I didn’t realize it until I got my second one one which was only 17 dollars. I was 22 right out of school, knew nothing. Went to my Manager and she sent it to payroll and she told me I could get it next paycheck. I didn’t think i could make them pay me then I was practically in tears because I couldn’t pay rent . Well thankfully payroll was on it and cut me a check asap. That manager yelled at me for talking to payroll directly about it and not going through her after she told me she handled it. I cannot believe I put up with that woman for the little pay I got!

  385. Anallamadingdong*

    I have to applaud you, Allison. Your response was a thorough take down without using a plethora of curse words which were coming out of my own mouth as I was reading this.

  386. Sharkie*

    Ooof , I really hope there isn’t a race component to this because if there is it makes the letter 100000% worse

  388. Paisley*

    Alison – I would high-five you if I could for this response. And I applaud the HR person for the way they fixed it (though they should have the first time, yes). The OP is on some other plain than normal people and I hope karma comes his way.

  390. Berkeleyfarm*

    I mean … daaaang. When I saw this teased on Twitter, I thought that “Jane” had cursed someone out/kept ranting around the office.

    There’s a respect gap, all right, but it’s not Jane.

    I’m sure the OP is wringing hands elsenet about “how people don’t want to work”. When, of course, it’s the employers with bad managers/bad pay/bad conditions that are having trouble because the labor force is down millions due to Covid.

    1. Clisby*

      Me too. I thought Jane had gone nuclear, which – even though she’s the wronged party – is not at all advisable at work. Instead, it turns out OP is a complete loon.

  391. super duper anon for this*

    I have been in your exact same position before, OP – but with remote contractors. One of our best (most reliable and experienced) people didn’t get paid on time because of an error made by our payroll department. He called me up immediately and calmly stated that he wouldn’t be attending to any further duties until he received his pay. I assured him I understood and apologized for the situation, then I had to defend him to MY manager (who reacted exactly as you did and tried to tell me that he was being a terrible, ungrateful person). A little extra context: our payroll department *regularly* made mistakes with people’s (contractors’) pay – but not usually the kind where they just didn’t get paid at all!

    I was able to get the problem fixed and he received his money on time (it was end of business on a Friday, so someone had to stay late to resolve the error with his bank transfer). He thanked me for coordinating the fix and confirmed he would be back at work the next day as originally planned.

    Then I put down the phone and had a come-to-Jesus conversation with my manager about the reality of managing freelance content experts, and how his attitude towards non-payment would give the company a terrible reputation that none of us would be able to contradict. He didn’t argue, which was frankly amazing progress at the time….

  392. Kate in Colorado*

    “I’m getting tired of the respect gap I’m seeing with younger staff.”

    That translates to me as: I’m getting tired of people who advocate for themselves. OP, please do a lot of personal reflecting on what “respect” actually means.

  394. Hippo-nony-potomus*

    ” After that, she looked at me and the payroll manager and said, “I appreciate your apology, but I need you both to understand that this can’t happen again. This has put me under financial strain and I can’t continue to work for COMPANY if this isn’t corrected today.”

    The payroll manager was heavily in agreement, but I was speechless that she’d speak to management like that.”

    Young women are not under special rules. They are also allowed to be strong and to advocate for themselves. Check your sexism, and that is something I quite rarely say.

  395. 1st time poster*

    The company made a mistake and assured Jane multiple times via email that it would be rectified. Next payment cycle it was NOT corrected and occurred again. It appears Jane gave plenty of leeway to account for an honest mistake, didn’t feel the need to get higher-ups involved, etc until that second occurrence. For OP to take offense is rich to put it mildly. I’ve heard of many companies that “slow-pay”. As a new employee being firm that this would not be tolerated again was necessary.

    1. 1st time poster*

      I know someone who was owed 1000’s in back pay – speaking firmly to “management” did nothing, and she was afraid to quit and potentially lose it all. We don’t know Jane’s prior experience with issues like this, or her financial pressures and she should be given a TON of leeway to react

      1. Candi*

        And she didn’t know that DOL claims can be filed after your last day. How long you have depends on the state, but all the deadlines I know of are at least 6 months.

        (slaps up big neon sign so hopefully other younglings will see this)

  396. The Crowening*

    OP, do you honestly, truly believe an employee shouldn’t expect to be paid promptly? Why on Earth do you think Jane – or anyone else on your team, or on most teams – took that job?

    And you honestly think needing a paycheck indicates irresponsibility…. but REPEATEDLY NOT PAYING AN EMPLOYEE is no big deal?

    I hope you will reconsider your own career. I have worked for managers who think they are owed only sweetness and smiles no matter what. That style of management really says, “I am an insecure manager who cannot handle the slightest issue or conflict fairly, because my feelings always come before business.”

    I hope Jane finds a job working for a boss who’s not this high on authority. Jane is a professional whose work has a value. She ought to work someplace where she is valued!

  397. Exhausted Trope*

    I am aghast at what is going on in OP’s mind here. JANE is too big for her britches? And your asking “why is our company responsible for her fiscal irresponsibility?”
    So many assumptions here.
    If that’s truly what you think, OP, you ought to follow Alison’s advice.
    SMDH so hard now.

  398. Petty Patty*

    All right, Alison. When are you going to say whether or not the LW is male? Or if the LW is white and Jane is a WOC?

    1. Petty Patty*

      FTR, LW reads to me like a white woman. I’m still curious to know if there is a gender or race difference, though.

    3. Roscoe*

      Does everything on this site really need to go to this person is racist/sexist.

      Can we just not accept that they are a bad boss regardless?

      1. Daffodilly*

        Can you please just accept that racism and sexism actually ARE an issue? And common enough that they should absolutely be considered as a contributing factor in a lot of the issues brought up here?
        Yes, they are a bad boss.
        And if racism and sexism contribute to that, it needs to be rooted out. We won’t get rid of it if we don’t address it.
        So no, we will not stop talking about how racism and sexism contributes to bad work behavior.

      2. Observer*

        Yes, they are a very, very bad boss. SOOO bad that people are trying to figure out what lens could so heavily distort someone’s view. Racism and sexism are two very string contenders.

      3. Candi*

        We’ll never get rid of bigotry if we don’t dig out the poison roots wherever they are. That often means following up on hints of where they might be.

      4. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        Ignoring systemic racism and sexism just creates more bad bosses. People are jerks because they think a certain way. They think a certain way because of the ideologies that they are enculturated with. Those ideologies are baked into society and some of them are sometimes harmful. The only way to change things is to recognize and call out the harmful ideologies. So YES, we do need to consider whether race is in play, or sexism, or any other harmful systemic issue. We need to consider if the boss is sexist, racist, a little bit of both? and if that is effecting their treatment of everyone under them.

      5. Nanani*

        No. Gender and race dynamics are real and worthy of discussion.
        You (unless multiple people have the same username) seem to have a pattern of dismissiveness towards gender issues in particular. Maybe you should consider diversifying your reading and actually listening to other people.

  399. Erin*

    I am glad that the company stepped up with gift cards for groceries and gas. The stress of not knowing when your next paycheck will happen is incredibly overwhelming. Jane’s stress is compounded by the fact that she’s a newer hire and she can’t trust her manager to rattle some cages for her on a basic and extremely important part of her job.

    1. Radical Edward*

      Exactly. The company responded appropriately, once pushed; if I were Jane here I would be maybe possibly okay with the end result, but would also never trust my manager again.

      OP, not standing behind your employees in a situation like this will have permanent and disastrous consequences. This is one of the most clear-cut problems they could possibly bring to your attention – if you don’t have their backs when it comes to literally paying them for the work they do, how can they believe that you will be fair or reasonable about anything else?

      1. Candi*

        Random thought: I wonder if the reason OP “first heard of it” on the day the second check didn’t show up is the other employees told Jane trying to get OP to care was a pointless task. So OP didn’t hear anything until it reached the point where OP had to be present as the manager at the big escalation meeting.

    1. Petty Patty*

      Bosses who write in are not eligible, Alison doesn’t want to turn off any of her reading demographic. Only bosses mentioned by people who write in are eligible.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        It’s not about turning off a reading demographic; it’s because I don’t want people who ask for advice to end up getting pilloried like that, because that could discourage people from asking for advice in the future, and asking for advice is a good thing.

        1. Catgirl*

          Your answer was great, by the way. You must have been furious but your response was frank, direct and yet polite.

  401. Sarah M*

    I am absolutely HORRIFIED at this manager’s response and attitude towards this situation and towards Jane. Jane did NOTHING WRONG. Apologies for going All Caps like a ranting nutjob, but this letter was so offensive to read, and the manager so utterly in the wrong, I would definitely be using my scary killer ultra infuriated voice if I said this to OP in person. WTAF, OP.

    The OP really, really, really needs to go back to manager school. This is so wrong on so many levels. Jane is NOT the “entitled” one. Your company put her in a precarious financial position for over two pay periods(!) due to it’s own mistakes. HR handled it very well, and so did Jane. You are way out in outer space with your perspective on this one, and given the laundry list of assumptions you made about Jane, her “attitude”, how the company handled it – well, frankly everything you wrote in your letter – I don’t think this is the only time this has happened. Wow.

  402. Elizabeth West*

    OP, I haven’t read the comments yet so I don’t know if you replied. I’m going to try to be nice about this.

    Please try to think about it from Jane’s point of view. She took this job expecting to be paid promptly and in the amount your company agreed to pay her. Changing jobs, or being between jobs, often puts people on the edge financially, especially if it takes a while to find something. To miss a first or second paycheck (or both!) can throw someone way off track even if they budget down to the penny.

    She has every right to be upset about this. Personally, I think her reply was pretty restrained. I’m not sure I would want to stay at a job that effed up two of my paychecks right off the bat, especially if my manager got butthurt with me for being upset about it. And I feel safe in saying I’m sure many other commenters would agree with me.

    I think you’re mistaking standing up for oneself as disrespect. Right now I’m admiring Jane for calmly and clearly letting y’all know that not getting paid is a deal-breaker for her, as it would be for me and many other workers. HR seems to have grasped that.

    If this is the hill you choose to die on, you’ll die alone.

    1. Chocolate Teapot*

      Plus, sometimes there can be a difference in payday. One company paid salaries around the 21st of the month, another the 25th, and sometimes that can make a huge difference with deadlines for paying bills.

      I still remember the company which cheerfully informed me I wasn’t getting paid for 2 months, as they were deducting the fees for an employee investment I had made. To make matters worse, I had just purchased something expensive, which I would have held off doing had I known. Thankfully, my boss at the time pointed out this was illegal where we were working (head office was in another country), so a percentage of the fees was deducted from each month’s pay instead.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Definitely. When you start a new job, there’s often a delay while they process everything, and if their schedule is different from what you’re used to, that can throw off your entire budget!

  403. Daydream Believer*

    OP is utterly deluded!

    Alison’s response is spot on.

    I may like my job but I’d be out of there like a shot if they weren’t paying me. I am well established in my career yet still couldn’t absorb two months of missing pay.

    OP deserves an immediate demotion and retraining if this is their unbelievable perspective.

    1. Candi*

      Seen the Twitter thread yet? Except for the person who thinks wage theft isn’t illegal (!) it’s glorious.

  406. AFL*

    I really hope OP goes to HR and asks to be transferred to a position where they won’t be supervising anyone. How inappropriate.

  407. Palliser*

    From the 1000+ comments, clearly this letter hit a nerve! I’d just like to say that I hope we get an update on this one. It would be wonderful to hear how this landed for OP and if he/she has been able to think of the situation differently.

  408. LinuxSystemsGuy*

    I haven’t read *all* the comments, but Allison and several other posters mention that they missed two pay checks. It’s worse than that, Jane didn’t actually threaten to quit until the *third* missed paycheck. She was supposed to to have been paid a contract rate for whatever they do as part of the interview (which, wow, that must be some interview), she didn’t get that, and may or may not have even known she was supposed to until she complained. That’s one check.

    She worked an entire pay cycle and didn’t get paid. This is where she first complains. That’s two checks. Payroll then assures her that they fixed the problem (but didn’t issue a paper check, which seems to be a place that payroll dropped the ball). It’s only after whatever payroll did after the first complaint failed and she didn’t get paid *again* (3rd check) that she makes a bigger fuss and gets the paper check, gift card and paid trip to the bank.

    All told, depending on the pay cycle they didn’t pay her for 3-5 weeks worth of work. And if, like a lot of companies, they offset paychecks by a pay period, it might have been as much as seven weeks that she actually worked before she finally saw a paycheck!

    Granted that contractor paycheck is probably not a lot of money, but still. As much as seven weeks work before her first check

  409. iglwif*

    YIKES. I knew something was in the offing from Alison’s tweet, but even so, this was a BIG yikes.

    OP, I hope you are able to take Alison’s advice to heart, because–I am trying to be kind here–you are unlikely to get the best work from your direct reports if you are emphasizing their willingness to show deference to folks above them in the org chart over their legal and moral right to be paid for their work!

  410. Phoenix Wright*

    The kindest thing I’m able to say about OP is this: if the letter posted right after this one, titled “my boss sucks and there’s nothing I can do”, was written by Jane I wouldn’t disagree with her claims. For your employees’ sake, you shouldn’t be that kind of boss.

    Hopefully this will make you reflect on your entire way of thinking, because it’s clear you’re lacking in empathy.

  411. FJohnIV*

    One nagging question, this manager (deep breath) reads this column! The letter is from a “reader.” I’m not a routine denizen here, but how could you even causally read this recurring advice column, write that letter, and then think, “Yeah, yes, this is a good question?”

    Wow.

    No offense, but this definitely doesn’t make me want to be an advice columnist. Because clearly, your message isn’t getting through.

    1. Fran Fine*

      Lol, right. I can only hope that OP is only a casual reader who stumbled upon the site recently because if she’s a long-term reader? Yikes.

    2. ecnaseener*

      I think Alison starts all the posts with “a reader writes,” she really has no way of knowing whether this LW has read the site. (Above she commented that she thinks this probably wasn’t an existing reader, more likely someone who just googled and found the site for this question)

  412. Old-Lady*

    Late pay check, more like no paycheck.
    That happened to me 3 times with late paycheck and I started looking for another job because I figured that the company was in financial trouble.
    I work to pay my bills.
    Those paychecks being late (auto-deposit days late after I found out) resulted in me draining my emergency fund the first time to keep from bouncing checks, the second time (after apologies from the first time, etc.) had me bounce checks because I hadn’t had time to fill up my emergency fund (next paycheck) and the third one screwed my credit so that I had to wait 4 years more to buy a home even after I had left that job, got a better paying one and saved up a down payment.
    They were always sorry and eventually they always paid me and even gave me a cashiers check to get me by and cover bank fees (WTF, just pay me on time). I had been there for a couple of years before this happened. You are a new employer. Not wanting your financial future screwed by people you barely know does not make you “too big for your britches”.

  413. An American(ish) Werewolf in London*

    I have nothing notable to add – I share the indignation of the rest of the commentators (commentors? commenters?) here, and the fury at the OP/LW

    However, I’m going to go out on a limb here and wager imaginary money that we’ll never hear from the OP again. Which saddens me. My better side wants them to come back and realise where they’d gone wrong; my ‘slow down for a car crash’ side wants to see them try to double down (mostly joking here).

    I hope Jane finds a way better situation, be it with that company (but a different manager) or a different one (with a different manager).

    1. Escapee from Corporate Management*

      I have a feeling that OP has never been wrong in their life and is insulted by all of these young whippersnappers in the comments not showing the proper respect.

  414. On the road again …*

    Decades ago my employer changed payroll companies and direct deposit was delayed 8 hours for everyone but me. Mine took days 2 fix plus they had removed the money from my account more times than they had added it so I was dealing with a hot mess.
    Everyone got a $200 apology. My boss drove to my daycare and paid them in cash so my kid didn’t get expelled. I had numerous late fees that my employer paid, they wrote a letter to all creditors AND the credit bureaus to take the blame, plus when I received my correct pay I also received an apology equal to an extra paycheck. My holiday bonus was a little heavy that year too. That is how you handle a paycheck error.

    1. Fran Fine*

      Indeed. And I bet their actions inspired you to want to continue working for them, too, which ultimately benefited them. OP’s reaction may well lead a very good employee to leave (I would).

  416. joss*

    “I’m getting tired of the respect gap I’m seeing with younger staff.”
    Holy pile of steaming brown smelly stuff! Does OP really think this has anything to do with the age of her team member? I an about to hand in my notice because I want to retire (and I am not retiring early either) and am most likely older than the OP but I can tell you that I would not accepted this either and let this quietly pass. The only thing I wonder about is how this person ever managed to become a supervisor and I really doubt s/he has what it takes to be one now or at any time in the future

  417. Sarah*

    This letter made me want to blow a gasket. I’ve been Jane at my first job out of grad school. I had taken student loans as I was full-time and had budgeted very carefully to make it through the summer and into my first job. I had used credit cards to get enough together to move to a new city, put down 1st month and deposit on an apartment, and buy enough work clothes to get me started. I had a signing bonus and moving fee reimbursement coming in my first pay check. So while it was sure I’d be able to pay everything off and be ok financially.

    Company didn’t process my direct deposit correctly and sent my paper check to an office in a completely different city and no one could seem to find it. Then it did the same thing with my next check. I had to borrow a not insignificant amount of money from my boyfriend (now husband) for groceries and to be able to make my 2nd months rent. I had to pay a lot more in credit card interest charges than I planned. It was incredibly stressful and honestly an experience that has shaped my world view about poverty and living pay check to pay check. I am so grateful that I had the social safety net to help me, because I don’t know how those less fortunate would have dealt with it.

    I remember telling my brand new boss, “This is a major problem for me. I need this fixed ASAP.” I’m glad that he stepped up to call around until he got it solved. My 3rd paycheck was deposited correctly and my first 2 checks showed up a few days later.

    As a manager now, I take this stuff very seriously. One of my employees didn’t get a $100 gift card the company provided, and I spent over an hour tracking it down and making sure she got her rightful compensation.

  418. Sylvan*

    I’m also uncomfortable because why is our company responsible for her fiscal irresponsibility? Her personal finances or debts are not the company’s responsibility.

    That’s why people get jobs. People work for money. She didn’t receive the money she worked for.

    I’m getting tired of the respect gap I’m seeing with younger staff.

    I’m also tired of the imbalance in respect, but I think you and I see it in directly opposing ways.

    1. Nina Bee*

      Even though I hate the whole generation fighting/blaming millennials for everything stuff.. I did scream ‘Ok boomer’ reading that letter. The AUDACITY of the LW is just…

  419. Can Man*

    In addition to everything else about how problematic the LW’s take is, if Jane is young enough for you to say something about “kids these days” (a phrase with its own issues), I would think you’d consider that she might be young enough not to have had time to build up enough savings to weather your company screwing up two paychecks in a row, even if she was twice as “financially responsible” as you. Especially at entry level salary. And that’s not taking into acccount any confounding variables from student loan/medical/caretaking/car trouble/whatever expenses.

    Also, this is coming from someone who was in a position to weather a couple missed paychecks when he encountered his only paycheck error. I just wanted it fixed by the next one but my boss got it fixed in an off cycle direct deposit the next day. I was gentle because it’s my nature, but I would’ve been decidedly less gentle had it been screwed up two checks in a row, not because I couldn’t pay my bills but because that goes beyond “mistake” and into “violating the agreement.” I’d do the same thing if the agreement being violated was “give me food I’m not allergic to” or “keep what’s said in my psychotherapy sessions confidential.”

    1. it's-a-me*

      Letter writers are not eligible. No one wants to discourage people from writing in, when they might learn something. Here’s hoping LW does learn from this.

  421. A Kate*

    This letter was WILD. As I was reading, I kept looking for Jane’s so-called poor behavior, and could not find it. Her “thanks, but this cannot happen again and if it does, I will have to stop working here” was the of professional conduct in a truly untenable situation.

    For Jane’s sake, I hope she can at the very least be reassigned to a more competent and decent manager. Bravo to Allison for a perfect response.

    1. A Kate*

      that was “the epitome of professional conduct” but apparently I do not know how to html code for italics.

      1. Heffalump*

        Left angle bracket-I-right angle bracket = italics
        Left angle bracket-slash-I-right angle bracket = italics off

  422. Cnb*

    Uf da…seriously, part of me wants to say, this is made up, but I know better…wow, just wow. I think the job of people manager needs to be removed from your title and replaced with a dunce cap. Your next entitled employee will want to work within business hours or God forbid get pregnant or something….really you should of planned parenthood for when you retired instead of demanding time off to give birth…cause you could do that on your lunch hour! Seriously the LW needs a serious attitude adjustment….

  423. SnappinTerrapin*

    The LW should be terminated for incompetence and unprofessionalism. Maybe she can learn a lesson and be a more valuable employee in her next job.

    The company was fiscally irresponsible in failing to meet its financial obligations. The manager was callous and disrespectful, lacking basic human decency, in blaming the employee for respectfully pointing out that the company had failed in the most crucial and basic obligation it owes to its employees: Paying them correctly and on time.

    The Soviet Union is dead; there is no reason for this employer to “pretend to pay” its workers, much less to assume the worker is merely “pretending to work,” nor is this likely to be a “company town,” where the employees are entirely dependent on the “generosity” of the employer to allow them the privilege of owing their souls to the company store.

  424. Lenora Rose*

    I have not been paid timely at two jobs. One was college age fast food, and the employer cut the cheques but didn’t bother making sure the cash from the register made it to the bank on time, and the cheques bounced. Twice. Other employees were happy to hand the cheque back and be paid in cash if it meant getting their money on the spot, instead of complaining about the poor planning. I was on the verge of leaving anyhow, and the second time was once too many. This was also the place where I put in an Employment Standards complaint to the province because they paid time for overtime, not time and a half. (Again, others seemed content to let it slide because they were paid *something*.) Since i was often doing an hour to an hour and a half overtime daily, and others were doing the same or more (one guy regularly stayed 3-4 hours overtime most days), this added up. It took a year, and I had never been counting on the money for anything, but I got a random final cheque in the mail from them that added up to a full extra cheque’s worth.

    The second was a company that was literally running into the ground and could not afford to pay staff at all; When I could see it coming, I left on otherwise polite terms with the owner, who was a great salesman but a terrible entrepreneur and should never have tried to start his own business. I got my final pay over a month after my last work day there, and after EI kicked in. I think but am not sure that the final payout was also when the business closed. Certainly it wasn’t much longer.

    So this is what I associate with not getting paid timely: an alcoholic fast food owner who took advantage of people just being glad to have money, and happy to break the law , and a failed business closing its doors. Is that who the OP wants to be associated with?

  425. I need cheesecake*

    Also. The thing I find really interesting is that Jane wasn’t rude or disrespectful.

    She was assertive.

    There is a difference!

    1. RagingADHD*

      One wonders how LW might react to someone telling them, “I understand that you’re upset, but I won’t sit here and be screamed at. We can talk when you calm down.”

      Because I have a sneaking feeling Jane would be the one to tell them that when nobody else has had the guts to.

      1. Candi*

        If that happens, we need popcorn. And appropriate alternate snacks for those who can’t have popcorn.

  426. Calibrations*

    this is the kind of manager who gets offended when the person they’re interviewing asks about compensation and benefits because *GASP* how absolutely dare someone work for money?

    1. GammaGirl1908*

      Which, again, she ought to have a bottomless supply smartly saved from some nebulous source out of nowhere, because clearly this young woman shouldn’t be **gasp!** depending on her paycheck to live on.

  427. rg*

    Thank you for the perfect answer to this.

    I have been (kind of) in Jane’s position before but I wasn’t a brand new employee. I had already worked for my employer for several years. The glitch occurred when they were switching over from one payroll computer system to a different one. Most people got paid correctly, but somehow I was one of the unlucky ones who didn’t. This happened in a paycheck that was supposed to be deposited right before a long 4th of July weekend. My direct deposit paychecks had always appeared as scheduled before so (as I always did) I had scheduled many 1st-of-the-month bill payments to go out automatically the day after the deposit should have been deposited. When (unbeknownst to me) it wasn’t deposited when it should have been, but my payments automatically got sent out anyway, I suddenly started receiving bounce notices and accompanying fees for bounced checks, etc. Many of my payees automatically resubmitted their e-bills immediately & those also bounced. And OF COURSE it was over the long 4th of July weekend when I couldn’t get hold of anyone from our own payroll department. By the first workday following the long weekend, my checking account was overdrawn by almost $1000 bucks, my bank was threatening to close my account, my landlord was threatening to evict me, and my finances were all a huge ugly mess through no fault of my own. I did something probably worse than “Jane” did. I walked into my own payroll office with printouts of all the bounced payments, threats to cause further damage to my financial life, etc. sat down, & said, “I don’t know what happened but I’m not leaving here until I have a check in hand for my wages that you should have direct-deposited almost a week ago, and I expect you to reimburse me for all the fees & fines documented here.” They didn’t particularly care for “how” I presented it but I didn’t care. I was not about to let my financial life be ruined by my employer’s computer glitch. Thank Heaven they realized they were in the wrong, regardless of whether I was indignant or sunny & smiley in letting them know, and they did take responsibility for the error and correct it.

    1. Candi*

      Good for you. I’m questioning the ignoramuses who decided to do the switch right before a long holiday weekend with no one watching it! That was asking for a disaster to happen. I’m sorry you got hit by the tornado.

  428. BlaineAmanda*

    Is anyone else SUPER impressed by Jane’s confidence, knowing her worth, ability to set boundaries, and advocate for herself? As an entry level female employee in the mid 2000s, I can say I would not have had the ability to do so…I remember trying to make everything easier for everyone around me, and not be a “bother” when issues came up. Feeling super encouraged by the rising female entry level workers – Be a Jane!

    1. El l*

      Seriously, yes.

      OP, if you’re reading this (which I doubt), please take the criticism in the column and comments to heart. A person stating they won’t work unless they are paid per their contract and the law is not disrespect – it’s Job One for you as an employer. Everything else pales in comparison. You don’t have a leg to stand on.

      I really think you ought to see someone about why you’ve reacted the way you have.

  429. James*

    Something I just thought of (a day late and a dollar short, but still): From what I’ve seen the IRS has stepped up audits of employee compensation. Maybe it’s just the company I work for, but I know we’ve been audited more recently than usual.

    Failure to pay employees is a MAJOR issue with anyone doing federal work. It’s a requirement that many of my contractors have payment bonds to ensure employees get paid, for example, a requirement that was inserted after a few too many incidents like the LW describes. Failure to pay employees makes you ineligible to bid on certain contracts, as well as bringing the wrath of the tax folks down upon your head. And it doesn’t take as much as you think to fall under these rules. My subcontractors are often surprised to learn that as a haul truck driver or a driller they too are subject to these requirements. And remember, your group doesn’t have to be the one working for the government. There are nuances, obviously, but the government can treat your company as a whole for the purpose of these laws.

    LW, if you do ANY government work and they find out that you’ve failed to pay an employee three times it may render your entire company ineligible to continue doing government work. I’ve seen folks kicked off government contracts for less. Many companies that work with the government rely on those contracts to stay afloat–you could very easily be gambling with the employment of many people in your company here.

    1. Candi*

      Well, the government’s finances took a hit along with everyone else’s.

      Wage theft is known to be a huge problem. And companies can be fined out the wazoo for it.

      Ergo, get more money for the government by going after wage thieves. Beats paying higher taxes.

      I wonder if the OP cares about whether other workers in their company remain employed, as long as they aren’t affected.

  430. Nom*

    Entry level employees make less money and have been earning money for fewer years… therefore, they have less savings to fall back on. Even if she does have savings, they may be tied up in investments (a house, an IRA) which most would say is being fiscally responsible. At any rate Jane should not have to be dipping into her savings due to a payroll error.

    LW refers here to a respect gap coming from younger staff, despite the fact that Jane had a very legitimate complaint. the attitude that younger staff should be deferential to more seasoned staff no matter what is the same attitude that can lead to discrimination and hostile work environments. Workers are finding more opportunities now where they know they can be treated with respect. I hope LW is prepared to lose staff over their attitude.

    1. Candi*

      My opinion? Being deferential no matter what is part of the reason the world is so screwed up.

      This generation that is willing to step up and say, “NO, that’s wrong, and we won’t be quiet about it” have a chance to make things better, since they refuse to be shouted down.

  431. Mystic*

    How can they know about Ask a manager and Alison…. and still have bad judgement? /sarcastic (kinda)
    I’ve been in that position before, the steps were as follows: they gave me a check, a physical check, double checked the routing and account numbers, told me it might need to be a check the second time, but check if it deposited first. Payroll and I communicated the whole time, because they wanted their records straight and I wanted paid!

    1. Amazed*

      I forget which one it is, but we had one LW in a similar vein actually reply that they were gobsmacked that the writer of a column called “Ask a Manager” would side against another manager on an issue like this. That one was depressing.

      1. Rainy*

        I think that was the manager who was angry that higher-ups had put a newly recruited rock star on her team to season for a minute before they moved her up in the organization, and basically made it impossible for the rock star to do her work, and resented her in general. That manager was ultimately fired, and only part of it was for chasing off upper management’s hard-won rock star.

  432. Essess*

    I was absolutely horrified by the OP’s letter and the way they were reacting to this situation. Honestly, OP, you really are not ready to be in management and should not have power over anyone’s livelihood if this is your reaction to someone being forced to go without pay for weeks. Your company was breaking the law by not paying the employee and then you called the employee ‘fiscally irresponsible’ when it was your own company that was fiscally irresponsible. If you do ANY type of discipline, negative reviews or pressure to transfer against this employee over this situation, I hope that the employee goes straight to HR.

  433. YetEvenAnotherAlison*

    Alison – you put this so very well:
    “I’m going to say this bluntly: you are very, very wrong about this situation, both as a manager and as a human.”

    ” Your company didn’t pay Jane money they owed her in the timeframe in which they were legally obligated to
    pay it. They did this twice.”

    “Your company messed up, and their mistake impacted someone’s income. That’s a very big deal.”

    This junior employee showed maturity with the way she handled the situation and I frankly would love someone like that on my team. Perhaps the fact that she is an assertive young women bothers people? She did nothing wrong. Sounds like she has great self esteem – another thing that bothers some when it comes from a confident young woman.

    1. GrooveBat*

      You articulated exactly what I was thinking. I believe LW was more offended by Jane’s poise and professionalism than the actual words. I sensed a definite undertone of, “How dare this underling carry herself with an air of authority when she is ONLY AN UNDERLING” going on in the letter.

      To me, LW comes across as being very threatened by Jane.

  434. EmmaPoet*

    LW, you are behaving like the villain in a rom-com. If the rest of us can picture Camila Cabello, Reese Witherspoon, and Rachael Leigh Cook staring at you in horror as we read this letter, then you seriously need to rethink your life and your choices.

  435. I don't mean to be rude, I'm just good at it*

    Many years ago I was assigned to a new school in a large urban school district. I received no paycheck after the first pay cycle. Principle (a very nice guy) said he’d look into it. No second or third paycheck. Annoying, but my side gig paid more than teaching, but was only a side gig so teaching was long term career plan. Principle went “downtown” to find out where my paycheck was.

    Central administration entered my working location for east high school instead of south high school and I was terminated for not reporting to assigned work location. I walked into school Monday morning with the boss telling me I was fired, but please don’t abandon us, “I’ll fix the problem.” Union got involved and wanted to give me emergency money which I still didn’t need.

    Everything was finally fixed and boy did I get a big paycheck. I did the sensible thing and did not spend a week in Vegas, but boy did I want to.

    1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      I walked into school Monday morning with the boss telling me I was fired, but please don’t abandon us

      Wow. I’m glad he made good on that promise, but that has to be a hard case to make to a new employee!

    2. Candi*

      We need to clone that principal. He did right by his teachers, and by doing right by his teachers, he does right by his students.

  437. It's Me*

    Me, reading the title: uh-oh

    Me, reading the word “britches”: UH-OH
    (not bad in and of itself but certainly A Signifier)

    Me, reading the full letter: UHHHHH-OHHHHHHH

    Letter Writer, you’re giving off strong “What could a banana cost, $10?” vibes here. Please take Alison’s response to heart.

  438. First time listener, long time caller*

    Payroll did not even come close to handling this properly. Employee didn’t get paid. She then exchanged multiple emails with them about her not getting paid. Then she didn’t get paid AGAIN. She should file a wage claim for the penalties on her late wages. The person responsible for her payroll should, at a minimum, be on a PIP.

  439. Friendly Neighborhood Auditor*

    I am so very curious to know if the OP has any further comments after reading all this.

    1. Escapee from Corporate Management*

      Almost certainly not. OP is probably a typical bully: full of bravado until called out, then a coward who hides in the corner. OP may even be…too big for their britches.

  440. MsRoboto*

    I worked for a small but very financially stable company. They cut actual payroll checks.
    My first paycheck bounced.
    I received a personal call from my boss that evening. Asking if I had deposited the check. I had.
    They cut new checks on Monday, they covered the bounce charge from my account – for bouncing the deposit. If any checks had bounced they would have covered that as well.
    This situation was out of their control as the bank the check was drawn on had suddenly been closed. The FDIC was involved.
    They did not take the situation lightly and I want on to work for them for over 20 years.

  441. Jennifer*

    I deeply, truly hope this manager reads the response and all the comments. “The company isn’t responsible”?? Why do you think people WORK?? For FUN?? Having a job with a regular paycheck is how you stay fiscally responsible, so yes, it is literally the company’s job to make sure they pay their employees the correct amount on time. Honestly I’m floored by this manager’s horrible attitude and lack of respect. Let payroll withhold three of her paychecks and see how happy she is about it.

  442. Alexa*

    The letter writer obviously has it out for this person who is clearly honest, hard-working, and has great boundaries.

    There’s nothing worse than an insecure boss, I hope “Jane” takes her money and RUNS.

  443. LandDownUnder*

    I had never jumped in the air and fist pumped to a response – until now.

    Being Australian and not knowing American workplace culture, this letter seems so out of touch with modern day workplace dynamics, it’s mind boggling.

    1. Candi*

      It’s out of touch with US dynamics, too. Employers with functioning brain cells, whatever other crap they may pull, know that to miss payday is to risk the wrath of the Department of Labor on their heads. If the DOL and the employees handling the case care at all, this is minimum the full owed wage paid out to the employee and a hefty fine. Much more likely, the person will get up to 3x the wage they’re owed (so if they were owed $1000, they get $3000), and fines for each count of violating wage law. I don’t know about other states, but in my state, each check would have been a separate count, including the interview one. Although that would have been under slightly different rules, since it was done as a one-time example thing rather than by an already-hired employee.

      We do have the bad ones who cheat their employees and take advantage of young people not knowing about FLSA (Fair Labor Standards Act) and the DOL, but they’re considered a horrible exception, not a norm.

  444. Hollywood Handshake*

    So what if Jane didn’t show up for work for two weeks, but expected to be paid because she’d make the work up later? OP, you’d take issue with this, right? Because you need her work completed in a timely manner? But shouldn’t you have planned ahead as a manager so you wouldn’t be in such need? Seems like a lack of planning on your part. This is exactly the mindset you are imposing on her, and it’s just as ridiculous your way.
    If you expect your employees to do their work on time, you have to pay them on time. Full stop.

  445. LifeBeforeCorona*

    Several months ago our direct deposit paycheques didn’t appear in our accounts. A co-worker contacted the manager and within an hour the big boss sent everyone an e-transfer for their missing paycheque. AFTER, that there was an investigation as to why, the bookkeeper had simply forgotten to input the payroll data before going on holidays. That is how you handle someone’s missing earned money.

    1. Candi*

      I hope they had a looooonnnnnggggg talk with that bookkeeper when they got back. Double-checking payroll is submitted should definitely be on the “before I leave” list.

      Hopefully they also got someone to cover for the bookkeeper when they were off. Another set of eyes might have noticed that payroll hadn’t been submitted.

      1. TechWorker*

        There’s no actual accounts connected to usernames here, your browser just remembers what you typed last time. So absolutely nothing stopping people happening to use the same username/have the same name.

      2. Charlotte Lucas*

        I’m not the person you’re responding to, but I can just… type in whatever name I want when I post comments.

  448. KR*

    It’s weird OP makes a point about saying this is the first time both they heard about this issue and “payroll” heard about the issue. Jane had been conversing with someone via payroll about this issue for a couple weeks beforehand, tried to figure out the issue without OPs help and involving management first, and was incredibly gracious and more generous than she needed to be throughout this whole issue. The OP is acting like she jumped straight to the “if this isn’t resolved I can’t keep working here” and meeting with management, but by all accounts she tried to resolve this the best she could and it sounds like this meeting was a last resort. The Payroll manager is correct to take this seriously, not only for the legal issue but because it sounds like one of her employees isn’t communicating issues up the chain like they should be. Honestly I made a mistake at my last job that resulted in one of our contingent workers not getting paid on time for the week and I felt SO BAD. I immediately told my manager and we asked the employee if he was in financial hardship and needed a check cut now or could wait until the next week. The employee & management was also CC’d on all communications regarding fixing the issue and what we were doing to prevent it from happening again. But the point is we immediately involved management and kept the employee in the loop, and it’s super shady that the payroll person Jane was dealing with wasn’t taking this seriously.

    OP is really off track here and I hope they learn to put their ego aside. You aren’t better or more worthy than Jane just because she’s in a different job role than you. She doesn’t have to grovel and act grateful to work without pay because she’s a new employee and in a more junior role.

  449. Former Computer Professional*

    Oh, dear. Years ago my former employer messed up not my paycheck but my taxes for the year. The fix should have been simple, but the company’s accountant was incompetent and kept ignoring the IRS telling them how to properly fix it. The employer kept saying, “It’s ok; we’ll fix this.” It took a year for the company to fire the accountant and hire one who knew what to do. The company paid for a tax attorney who charged $1000 to tell the IRS they were wrong about how to fix it (the IRS was not wrong). Almost three years after this started, I wound up hiring my own accountant for $300 to fix everything but it’s still going on today. While the Federal part has been fixed, the state got confused and forced me to pay state taxes (for that bad year) four times, of which 2 has been refunded, and they’re refusing to give up the rest, another $550. Without going into further details, the whole mess wound up impacting my income, as this company was not my sole source. I no longer work for that company.

  450. YC*

    This is like people writing to AITA who think they’re in the right only to be completely steamrolled by the responses. Completely unhinged.

    1. Donkey Hotey*

      AAM and AITA are two of my guide posts in life.
      My goal is to never appear in either one, either writing or being the subject.

  451. Mutra*

    Wow. This is a strong candidate for the worst boss of the year prize. I am not familiar with legal side of this in US, but in my country not paying your employee on time is a criminal offence. Doesnt matter if it is by mistake or not.

    1. New But Not New*

      The US Department of Labor has a Wage and Hour Division to handle these types of incidents. Not paying as agreed for work performed is a very serious matter in the US.

    2. it's-a-me*

      A letter writer is not eligible for worst boss, for good reason. Lets not discourage people from writing in, let’s hope instead that the LW can learn something.

      1. Pennyworth*

        I’m sure they don’t think they are a bad boss when they write in. Like the OP whose best employee quit to attend her graduation, this OP wrote in believing they had right on their side.

        1. it's-a-me*

          Exactly. And they wrote in to an advice column so hopefully they are willing to take advice, even if it’s not for the reasons they expected.

  452. Anony4565*

    Wow, Allison’s response was not what I thought it would be. I thought Allison would have said that Jane needed to react in a more professional way, but I can see why it is ok for Jane to react the way she did and be ok with it.

    Looking back at my younger self, I was not paid correctly for my hours worked and it took them weeks to fix it and get me the correct amount. I didn’t know anything about standing up for myself or anything and also afraid to lose my job if I did make a big deal about it.

    Op, hope you understand that she is entry level and someone right out of college wouldn’t have much savings.

    1. ecnaseener*

      How could Jane have acted any more professional than she did? From the letter, it sounds like she was completely polite and reasonable the whole time.

    2. Observer*

      I thought Allison would have said that Jane needed to react in a more professional way,

      What would you consider a “more professional way”?

    3. Pennyworth*

      I shouldn’t matter if she was a trust fund baby – she was entitled to be pay on time, every time.

    4. Nanani*

      Are you new here? Alison’s response was perfectly on-brand and consistent with years of reading this blog.

  453. Who Plays Backgammon?*

    I had been working full-time several years when I chose to go university full-time and took a lower-paying campus job that would accommodate my school schedule. We got paid monthly and I depended on that check for the roof over my head, the food on my table, and the buss pass that got me to campus. When my check didn’t arrive one month and I learned that under the rules for student workers’ payroll, I’d have to way for it until the next payday, I was not only angry, but very worried about surviving a month without a check. My boss couldn’t do a thing about campus rules, but he responded to my anger and dismay by telling me I needed to have a cushion. He went to a military academy straight out of high school, the into the service and had a decades-long career there before he retired and took a job in academia. He wasn’t rich, but he had never had to worry about income or his next meal in his whole life. Nor did he make the connection that I EARNED that money running his office and helping to make him look good to others. He was an idiot. And I don’t mean to suggest that all career military people are as clueless and out of touch as that guy.

    1. Candi*

      Honestly? He sounds like his life before he joined might have been pretty privileged too.

      Dad was also career military. He and his brothers joined up because their family was pretty poor when they were kids -Dad hit the Army, his elder brother took a turn in the Navy and qualified for the GI Bill, while his younger brother did okay for a round, but the Navy refused to re-enlist him.

      While a lot of Dad’s get-a-job advice was along the lines of “be subservient to the company” (although he didn’t practice what he preached), he was very firm about making sure you got your right pay on time. (Dad did knock off any pound the payment advice the first time I showed him an online application.)

  454. How is this an issue?*

    The more I read of this letter, the more acceptable I would have found it if she’d pooped on someone’s desk.

  455. yuppers*

    Please, LW, listen to every word or advice that Alison has shared with you here.

    I would also recommend you ask for a transfer to another role where you are not managing people, because you are clearly completely ill-suited to such a vocation.

    You should count yourself extremely fortunate that Jane did not stop working until she was paid.

  456. KimberlyR*

    My company didn’t pay me on time once (an error-my pay went to someone else with the same first name.) They were appalled and offered to wire me the money immediately, at their own expense, or direct deposit for the next day. I would not continue to work for a company who didn’t pay me on time. I’ve been there 6 years and it’s only happened that once. Money is a big deal.

  457. New But Not New*

    Jane was relatively nice, I would have gone completely ham about my money. Most people live paycheck to paycheck, but even if you don’t, you are entitled to be paid as agreed. Don’t mess with my money or well-being.

  458. Heffalump*

    Some years ago one of the airlines, I forget which one, had layoffs and pay cuts. Pay cuts for the grunts, at least, not for the top-level people. The CEO stated publicly, straight-faced, that the grunts should be able to deal with the pay cuts because they were used to living on less in the first place.

    1. Candi*

      Meanwhile, there’s a story about Southwest Airlines shortly after it started out. They had only four planes at the time.

      The accountants told the CEO that they wouldn’t be able to make payroll for everyone. The CEO had a choice: Lay people off or sell a plane.

      He sold a plane.

      Southwest had grown to enormous size by the time that CEO retired. Even after that awful hazing stunt several years before. Amazing how that works.

  459. Bumsters*

    Honestly, the LW should be glad the employee resolved it with the company directly instead of reporting the unpaid wages to your state’s labor bureau. The LW does not seem to understand that failing to pay wages is actually illegal. In most states you have either 14 or 30 days to day. That is what is known as a pay period. If the employee had not been paid for two months, she was actually incredibly patient with the company and gave it a lot of time and chances to fix the issue. I honestly don’t know what the letter writer expects the employee to do — continue working for free?

  460. Mish@migo33*

    I bet LW is the same person who would also complain if they got their burger was wrong at a fast food place, demand their money back, and get mad if it’s taking more than 2 minutes. Some people just don’t get it. The letter seems to suggest junior employees should let themselves be walked all over. I don’t get why this is even perceived as disrespectful. It sounds like the employee was very polite and professional.

  461. California Curmudgeon*

    So, from how I read the letter Jane was not paid for both the pre-hire assignment *and* two months of work. That just doesn’t cut it.

    I would shrug off the short assignment being missed – it’s probably all screwed up in the coding.

    But the regular payday *twice*, when paid monthly? Oh, no, no. I would have been all over payroll after the first missed regular check! Politely, but firmly, I would have reminded them of the posted paydays, and asked that they cut me a check.

    After the second missed check, with the first check and the pre-hire assignment money I would have given them a deadline to pay all of it by, or my next step would be either the wage and hour board, or the EEOC, which ever was more appropriate. I would have already looked it up.

    I also would be circulating my resume, because if they failed to rectify the second check, I would consider that I had been fired and would not be working there any more.

    I don’t know anyone who works for someone else who doesn’t need the money. Yeah, I have savings to cover a month or two, but it’s taken me *years* to get to that point. In my 20s I lived paycheck to paycheck and had no savings, stocks, or even a few hundred bucks for an emergency. Lots of people live like that even now, especially younger people.

    The LW was waaaaay out of line with calling Jane “too big for her britches”. She should have been trying to figure out how she was going to retain that person with the patience of a saint on her team, not calling her essentially “uppity” and having “an attitude”.

    Two months working and commuting? With no cash coming in because the company has repeatedly screw up my pay? Byeeeeee….

    (Note: My initial reactions to this included swear words for the benefit of Jane. But I didn’t write them down.)

  462. Lalalala*

    I sincerely hope the LW doesn’t retaliate against Jane just for asserting that she needs to BE PAID.

    1. Observer*

      Considering that her first reaction IS to retaliate (she is asking how long she needs to wait before transferring her out), I would not be surprised if she did retaliate.

  463. Plz*

    I really do hope the letter writer is a troll, because they should never have been given a role which involves the management or supervision of people.

    But I have known several managers who are just as ridiculous and awful. So they probably are real.

    I do weep for humanity sometimes. I just hope that Jane – and anyone else unfortunate enough to be managed by LW – are able to get away from them, and soon.

  464. Aerin*

    I am going to be sleep-deprived tomorrow, but I had to know if OP (or better yet, Jane) had turned up in the comments. I feel like this tab is gonna stay open for a few days…

    1. New Jack Karyn*

      There’s no way. Even if OP popped in to see Alison’s answer, the comments are so numerous and 100% against them. OP’s not stepping into this.

  465. Erinsy*

    I love this response from Alison so much I need a cold shower. I was literally yelling out ‘PREACH’ as I read.

    1. Happy pill*

      Same. As I was reading the submission, I was praying that there would be a sufficient response from Alison, and she did not disappoint.

  466. Still cannot think of something clever.*

    I wonder if the Ops response would have been different if Jane was male, I suspect it would be. What a tool, I hear they learn from this and become a better manager.

  467. Gawaine*

    Two things I didn’t see specifically mentioned, but will admit I skimmed a lot of the comments:
    * One more random piece of fuel for the fire, I’m not sure if it’s anywhere else. In some states, at least, if you don’t pay someone within a time period after they’re due, that’s a straightforward department of labor complaint with automatic damages. I know in the state I grew up in, if you didn’t get your final paycheck within a set period of time, it was triple damages.

    * If word gets out that a company isn’t paying people, that’s a serious problem for the company. Not just because they’ll find it hard to hire people, but because any supplier that hears it will worry that there are money problems that may hit them. Since employees are generally understood by everyone but the LW as the people you pay first, if word gets out that you aren’t paying them, no one trusts you.

    1. AJHall*

      That was what occurred to me. For all the manager going on about *Jane*’s alleged fiscal irresponsibility, they don’t seem to have worked out that the Company’s credit and reputation is likely to take a major hit if word of this gets into the marketplace.

    2. sabik*

      Especially since “I appreciate your X, but I need Y by deadline Z” is the sound of someone ticking off the “make good-faith effort to resolve the issue” step of filing a complaint

  468. Kal*

    Yikes. Imagine being the manager who felt disrespected by their employee wanting to be paid for their work. That sort of mindset should disqualify anyone from being a manager. I sincerely hope that OP takes in the response here and seriously re-evaluates their own behaviour and mindset, and seeks help to get retrained on how to be an effective manager.

    And if OP doesn’t want to do any of that, then I hope they do put Jane up for a transfer to a different department as soon as possible, because Jane deserves to be working with a manager who can respect her and see her talents and the value she brings to the team.

  469. Zaphod Beeblebrox*

    You know who I feel sorry for? The manager who wouldn’t give her employee time off for her graduation.

    She’s just lost the title of most out-of-touch boss of all time.

  470. Dennis Feinstein*

    Ugh Jane’s boss.
    A number of years ago I worked at a magazine company that was notorious for not paying freelancers (you know, the people who provided much of the content). Their invoices were always somehow “lost” between the editor’s desk and the accounting department (there must’ve been A LOT of invoices that had “accidentally” fallen down the back of filing cabinets).
    We had one freelancer who was actually CRYING on the phone to the editor because she had no money to buy groceries for her kids. When the editor called the accounts department to demand payment for her, one smarmy git said: “Well it’s her own fault. She should manage her finances better.” (Cue EXTREME face-palming and eye-rolling from the rest of us…)
    From memory the editor actually paid the freelancer out of her OWN bank account because she felt so bad for her.

    1. CW*

      Give me a break. Manage finances better? Unless you are a millionaire or billionaire, not getting paid regularly on time on the agreed upon pay schedule will make even the smartest about their money and those who follow a strict budget eventually land in financial ruin sooner than realized. That “smarmy” deserved to be fired. It’s the magazines company’s fault, plain and simple.

      1. CW*

        Okay, I meant “magazine”, not “magazines”. Silly typo. I wish there were an edit button on here.

  471. embertine*

    I had an employer tell me that they would have problems paying me at the end of the month. I told them I would have problems coming in until I was paid. I got paid on time and it never came up again.

    The idea that wanting to be compensated for your work according to a legally binding agreement is disrespectful is staggering.

  472. Sz*

    This is exactly what happened to me at a former employer. I didn’t get paid for six months. The first couple of months, it was an administrative error, the accountant failed to add my bank details to payroll. I lost my temper after the second time, following which the next few months he refused to add it out of spite. I said the same thing Jane said, and the company’s response was to fire me. I ultimately took them to court, got my back pay, and the court forced to pay me one year’s worth of salary on top for “financial hardship”…and the accountant got fired. Very satisfying that was.

    1. school of hard knowcs*

      And this is why responsible companies jump thru hoops if it payroll is delayed or in error

      1. James*

        One reason, anyway.

        Another reason is that this sort of behavior is grounds for immediately disqualifying a contractor for bidding on projects in many companies. I know that if a contractor like this sent me a bid it wouldn’t be a red flag; it would be a torpedo immediately destroying any chances of them getting work. At minimum it would require MAJOR documentation of how this will NEVER happen again, as well as a payment bond on the order of several million dollars (for the salary plus compensation for damages). Honestly, though, it wouldn’t be worth the effort. I’d toss the bid without further consideration, and if I didn’t someone else in the approval chain would.

        The company I work for isn’t the only one to do this. It’s actually pretty common. Failure to pay employees was an issue for a while in the construction industry, and it was addressed via requiring payment bonds. No one wants to go back to the bad old days; any company with that sort of reputation will quickly find themselves unable to win work.

  473. Beautiful, talented, brilliant, powerful musk-ox*

    “ Should I wait a while before suggesting she transfer to a different department?”

    I’d say transfer her immediately so she doesn’t have to put up with your bizarre demand that younger people not bring up problems at work. What’s she supposed to do if someone makes a mistake or delays something that impacts her work? Never bring it up? Wait twenty years to mention it so she’s not too young to mention a problem to the person who caused it?

    Janes deserves better. And you sound an awful like a former boss of mine who should have never manager people in the first place.

    1. Beautiful, talented, brilliant, powerful musk-ox*

      I’m not saying this isn’t the case, but I had a former boss who had a similar attitude toward us younger employees if we dared correct or question something she’d said (not rudely — just in a “you sent me to these meetings as your proxy so I’m going to let you know if you’ve misunderstood the scope of this other department’s project” way). I had one meeting with her where she might as well have said, “Children should be seen and not heard”. We are both white, but there was some serious ageism going on or something because it very much seemed to be a “respect your elders” thing (which…I was THIRTY-ONE when this happened).

      I know this type of thing absolutely occurs more often to POC. But sometimes someone being older and thinking that that in itself means younger people should shut up about any issue they experience is all it takes for someone to be this unhinged.

      1. Happy pill*

        I’m not POC but I experience again daily. My boss is 50+ and I’m turning 29 next month. My age gets brought up too often and I feel like sit bolsters her sense of entitlement.

  475. Portia*

    Experience has taught me that there is a high likelihood that “Jane” is african-american. And before someone objects to not bringing race into this, there are whole sociological studies and books written about the perceived “respect” gap when the speaker is a person of color speaking not a non-minority.

    2. Eldritch Office Worker*

      You aren’t the first person in the comments to suggest that and I don’t think anyone is going to jump on you. It very much reads like that’s a possibility.

    3. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

      I’ve seen many many people suggest that in the comments on this post. I would imagine that there are some code words/turn of phrases OP used in the post that are common for that type of interaction. It did not occur to me, because I never had a manager speak to/about me like that. Now that I think of it, when I was entry-level, I never had a supervisor complain about my lack of respect when there wasn’t (like in the OP case) any lack of respect actually happening. But I am blonde with blue eyes and white skin, and, according to what I heard from many people in my first years in the US, “look like an American” (took me years to realize how ridiculous that statement is… everyone looks like an American.) So with all that said, I’m going to trust the experience of all those who suggested that there must be the white vs BIPOC dynamic going on. Which would be the gross icing on that whole gross cake.

      1. Observer*

        I wouldn’t say “must”. But I think it’s highly likely that Jane is either Black or immigrant.

  476. Nina Bee*

    Oh man, I’ve been Jane multiple times! It was a freelance/contract role and they didn’t pay me for over 3 months.. ended up firing them both as clients. It is SO NOT OK to not pay people! Even if we do have savings, bills don’t stop coming and Jane not getting paid TWICE is ridiculous. I could feel her rage through that story, she did well to remain professional. Respect .. pfft. Respect is earned. Following legal business transactions (labour for monetary compensation) is the bare minimum. Hope Jane leaves and has an awesome career.

  478. CountryLass*

    Wow. I literally pictured an older, white man writing this. No offence to all the older white men out there, but it is the demographic I would expect to see this level of… unbelievable disconnect from.

    The company and Jane have a contract. She works X hours/day a month, and in return the company pays Jane £Y a month on Z date. They breached that contract TWICE, of course she was right to be upset, to calmly explain that this is a hard limit for her and that having it happen again was not acceptable. You HR and payroll were completely right in how they handled it. YOU are so far out of line that you couldn’t find it with a map and GPS.

    I got paid late twice by my old company. Fortunately my mortgage came out on the 4th of every month and I was supposed to get paid on the 1st, but I got straight on to my Director and he sorted it, telling me to provide proof of any bank or other charges caused by it and they would reimburse me.

    You need to rethink you attitude towards your staff.

  479. aebhel*

    I wouldn’t worry about it too much, LW. From your description, Jane is an absolutely stellar employee. I’m sure she’ll be able to find another job that doesn’t expect her to work for free, and you can go back to having your little fiefdom of people who have no other options than to perform the degree of obsequiousness you think is your due.

    More seriously, you’re the one who needs an attitude adjustment, not Jane. Pay your employees on time. They’re not working for you out of the goodness of their hearts. Your company has utterly failed to uphold their end of the employment agreement; you’re lucky your employee didn’t go to the DOL or just quit on the spot–and you’d absolutely be on the hook for unemployment if she did.

  480. Kòlga*

    This idiot manager doesn’t deserve employment or a paycheck at all if they were stupid enough to believe any of their own hubris and actually submit this letter. We’ll see how smug they are about financial planning then! People like them have made life a living nightmare for everyone 40 and under and it needs to stop. They’re nothing but disruptive, narcissistic micromanagers who need therapy, a more productive hobby, and to get out of the workforce so we can get on with our lives without needing medication to deal with them.

    1. Happy pill*

      I agree completely. Now it’s time for my nighttime dose of antidepressants and anti anxiety medications I now take to deal with my boss of 3 years. This letter is up her alley and would be a typical tuesday behavior-wise.

  481. Chuck Brown of the Cleveland Browns*

    Honestly I think “Jane” handled the situation rather well. The fault here lies with the manager who is to full of themselves to be in touch with the real world.

  482. DustyJ*

    Ah, I now have insight into what my awful manager thought of *me,* when I was in Jane’s position. I was being too big for my britches by expecting to be paid!

    ‘So what if your pay HAS been two months late? Why are you complaining? It’s just a bit of paperwork that wasn’t cleared. Why can’t you just be more patient with us for another month? We’ll pay you next month, we promise!’

  483. Ellena*

    This is one of those letters where I actually have to wonder if it’s real, so out of line the LW is. If it IS real, kudos to Payroll and HR for the way they handled it. And kudos to Jane for being exactly the way she is!

  484. Mike*

    I just recently became a manager and out of all my new tasks the most important one has been: make sure my people get paid! Seriously, that is the task that made me go “oh man, I’m responsible now”.

    1. Candi*

      Congratulations and good luck!

      Since you’re here, we know you’ll do awesome. May your staff always be filled with Janes and Joaquins, and no Feguses or Lauras.

  485. Dave*

    I work for a very large company in a metro area that spans multiple states. So Payroll should be used to employees frequently changing their state-equivalent of a IRS W-4 form whenever they move across state lines. However, when I last moved across state lines, Payroll decided to “lose” my electronically-filed state tax withholding form. Of course, I didn’t discover this until a pay cycle went by. So I complained to Payroll and they insisted they don’t lose paperwork, and everything would be caught up by next pay cycle. Nope. So I complained again and was given a paper version of the state withholding form so that the staff person could insultingly “make sure you fill it out correctly, because something must’ve been wrong with how you filled out the electronic version.” A third pay cycle goes by, and they’re still taking out taxes for the wrong state. I go back to Payroll and they’re all like “well we don’t know how this happened – we never lose anything – but we don’t have any forms on file for you so you’ll have to fill it out yet again. But don’t worry about it – you’ll just get all this money refunded at the end of the year from your former state and then write a check to your new state to pay them for the missing withholding.” As if my new state isn’t going to assess any penalties for under withholding!

    By the FOURTH pay cycle, they managed to get it right and started withholding for the correct state. Luckily, the under withholding wasn’t enough to trigger penalties in my new state, and I did end up getting a refund from my old state to pay the taxes still owed in the new one… but WTF. Payroll’s entire job is to withhold taxes/deductions for the correct entities and cut checks for the remainder to employees… and they can’t even do that right.

    This all is just to say, good for you Jane for standing down those idiots in Payroll and your own supervisor. There are some really incompetent people lurking in Payroll departments, and you should always double check your paystub for correct calculations.

  487. Captain of the No Fun Department*

    I lead an HR Dept which oversees payroll. When orienting new hires to my team, they learn from the beginning that the one thing we absolutely cannot get wrong is paying people. People choose to stay with an employer for many reasons but getting paid is the primary reason people have jobs. No matter what, we pay the people correctly. We had an employee who had a payroll error like Jane’s. It was caught by our processor but not in enough time that her pay wouldn’t be delayed. I personally made time to talk to her, apologize, let her know exactly when she would receive her pay (24-48 hours after she should have), and asked if there was anything we could do to prevent a negative financial fall out (many people set up their mortgage payments to debit on paydays- it would be terrible to see someone’s mortgage bounce because of an error on my team). The most basic part of work is that you get paid for it. OP is so so wrong.

  488. Leishycat*

    How can you act like this and think you’re in the right? The OP is out of touch to the point the letter almost seems farcical.

  489. Observer*

    The letter that the OP should give a look at is about the employee who was complaining about having to be at work rather than with her kids. That employee was a payroll clerk, and people were telling the OP (who knew that their employee was out of line but wasn’t sure if it was “ok” to make her knock it off). And boy did everyone get up in arms about the employee’s attitude. With perfect justification, of course.

    But just think about it – You can’t even complain about needing to run payroll. How much more important it is to ACTUALLY do it! And do it right!

  490. Nicholas*

    You pay for work, not to feed you respect. They did the work, you need to pay.

    If you want to be mindlessly revered and obeyed so you can feel superior, get a dog.

  492. sarah_kay_gee*

    I’m 100% certain that this manager is making posts on LinkedIn bemoaning the fact that so many Americans are quitting their jobs. “I just don’t understand, all I ask is that they work without compensation for an indefinite period and not be so RUDE about it!!”

  493. Stopgap*

    LW, you’re not really Jane’s boss. Bosses pay their employees. Until Jane gets the money she’s owed, you’re the thief who stole her labor. Why should she respect that?

  495. AJ has a headache*

    All of this and I just can’t get over the “fiscal irresponsibility” bit. Look, LW, Jane is BEING fiscally responsible by interviewing for, and accepting a job that should be enough to pay her bills. The old “have a safety fund” axiom only works if you’ve previously been able to put money aside, which just isn’t possible for many people these days even if they scrimp and save as much as they possibly can. Not to mention, perhaps Jane had previously had to dip into or use up a safety fund due to layoffs or illness or a million other reasons. Jane most likely didn’t take this job just for funsies, she took it because she was qualified and she needed the paycheck.

    Just, the sheer gall of this letter astounds me.

    1. aebhel*

      RIGHT???

      Like responding ‘lol get a job’ to people in need is bad enough, but when someone GETS a job, to act like they’re out of line for expecting to be paid, on time, for the work they’ve performed? My god.

  496. That One Person*

    Eek, imagine things like rent, groceries, gas, utilities, and maybe even school loans being “your fault.” We work to cover these things, so if a company can’t be bothered to pay for two pay cycles (or was this an interview assignment and a pay cycle?) then imagine a person getting upset because they’re prioritizing and possibly being penalized on some of these.

    2. Weldon*

      I hate to be the Victorian lit guy who just randomly swoops into convos, but I think this is an important thing. Dickens is clear that Scrooge *never* cheated his employees or vendors or customers. Never. He was *scrupulous* about paying employees a market-rate wage (Bob Cratchit was among the richest 15% of Londoners) and paying his vendors on time and delivering to his customers exactly what they ordered on time. Ebeneezer Scrooge would have thrown a shit fit and fired the person in charge of payroll in this situation.

      Dickens’s point was that simply meeting the legal and formal requirements of business is not enough, and one must be positively generous. But what we’re talking about here is not even Scrooge: Scrooge would never have stood for an employee going unpaid.

      1. Stopgap*

        I was thinking more Oliver Twist than A Christmas Carol. How dare Jane ask for more than she’s been given!

      2. The Revenge of the Proles*

        It’s a shame that we’re in an era were Scrooge would be an improvement. And they wonder why everyone’s not going to work on Black Friday.

  498. Anonymous Luddite*

    I realize this is really late (by AAM standards) but I want to advocate for a new category: Alison puts the hammer down.
    They don’t happen very often but I can think of a few where the writer is so completely disconnected from what is going on and Alison firmly and directly sets them right. I -live- for these letters. They breathe new life into my work experience.

  499. Weldon*

    The fact that LW didn’t see LWself as an advocate for Jane at payroll, but rather saw LWself as an ally of payroll against Jane is *such* a red flag.

    Run, Jane, run. This isn’t going to get better.

  500. Elle by the sea*

    I couldn’t agree more with Alison on this! I have been in that situation myself. My salary was late for months (!) and my manager’s response was the following: (1) You should take up other jobs as well like most normal people (2) It’s not our problem that you don’t manage your finances properly (3) Ask your parents for money. Run, Jane, run, just like I did?

  501. OneBean TwoBean*

    I just want to call out how perfect Jane’s response was. “I appreciate your apology, but I need you both to understand that this can’t happen again. This has put me under financial strain and I can’t continue to work for COMPANY if this isn’t corrected today.” I can only hope that I would respond in such a firm but professional manner in the heat of the moment if this happened to me. Seriously, A+ response for Jane.

  502. HR Here*

    I used to administer payroll as a function of my Human Resources position at a former employer. I was a department of one for a really complex workforce, and I would have been mortified if I’d made a mistake that caused someone to miss a paycheck not once but twice. It’s very high pressure when your actions affect your colleagues income! It sounds like this payroll and HR department responded to their mistake well, and I love that they had an emergency fund to help Jane.

    I wanted to comment because at this former employer we actively hired employees who were in recovery from addiction. So many of my colleagues were still getting their lives back together, including their finances, after years of poverty because of their addiction. They were learning to break the habits that came with their former lifestyle, learning new life and work skills, and working towards financial stability. Because I knew that many of them lived paycheck to paycheck, I did my best to advocate for them on things like better benefits, wages, and quickly resolving issues like the one that Jane faced (we had a nightmarish tax deduction debacle with a new payroll provider).

    I really want to encourage OP to take Alison’s advice and refrain from making assumptions and judgements about other people’s circumstances.

  503. Malice*

    Good god! Did this manager forget that people (including himself) work to GET MONEY? We don’t work your stupid entry-level jobs because we’re bored and need something to do! This guy has his head in the clouds and is the perfect embodiment of what is wrong with corporate America.

  504. Carey Folbrecht*

    The unmitigated gall of saying “employee wasn’t gracious enough about our mistake that she paid for”

  505. StuntKockSteeev*

    This response is largely correct, except assuming that the question writer is human at all seems to be a rather large leap of faith. Maybe some sort of automated fascist robot from a Philip K. Dick novel or something? Worth looking into.

  506. His Grace*

    This dude is almost as clueless as the guy who refused to let his best employee go to her own college graduation. and was shocked when she quit.

  507. Safety Nate*

    You should quit and give Jane your job. You’re lucky she was cordial about it, and if her taking this route with you makes you uncomfortable you’re not fit for a leadership role of any kind.

  508. The Revenge of the Proles*

    Thank god everyone but this boss seems to have their heads on straight. I hope the boss gets a reality check sooner rather than later because no one should have to suffer their attitude.

  510. Tim McTim*

    Wow, only a totally incompetent manager would feel so threatened by a skilled employee.

    The only managers who rely on this management style of fear and “respect” are managers who can’t do the job and don’t understand the actual way the business works.

    Upper management should be embarrassed that they’re employing someone totally incompetent.

  511. Nyxalinth*

    Wow. I have no words. I do, actually, but this is my first tie commenting in years, so I will do as asked and be kind.

    Jane did nothing wrong. It sounds like Manager doesn’t wnt people who are assertive working for him/her. It might be a generational thing, or a general rudeness/power trip thing, but in any event, this is not how to manage. Her response is strongly worded yet polite. If Manager OP can’t handle that, perhaps they need to reassess their position in management.

  512. The Price is Wrong Bob*

    You notice how you and the OP are the only people dying on this hill that employees should be fine with wage theft? The business would have to pay double or triple salary were Jane to file her valid labor complaint (not to mention the FINES) — that is how business works in the US. The OP should retire, since they are clearly so out of touch with why anyone works (for money), employer’s obligations (paying employees for their work) or the law. I am sad at the lack of leadership by Jane’s colleagues…who could have led her to an employment lawyer. If my report wasn’t being paid, you best believe we are stopping work as a team until that was sorted out. OP is a bad manager for not sticking up for their employee more — how the heck could they ever motivate anyone or build trust in a team with OP’s bad attitude?

    1. Eleanor Shellstrop*

      When you say “you” are you talking about Alison? It’s pretty clear in her answer that she’s not fine with wage theft – OP means “original poster” or the writer of the letter (which is the portion that is in italics). Alison’s response to the letter is below it.

  513. HS Teacher*

    Have we ever had a worst boss award go to someone who wrote it? This one should definitely be in the running. Wow.

  514. Heffalump*

    In 1983 during a severe recession I was working for a small print shop owned by a sole proprietor. At one point he experienced a cash flow crunch, and paychecks were delayed for a few days until he received payment for a recent print job. The situation didn’t make our week, but the owner kept us in the loop and wasn’t cavalier about it.

    1. Heffalump*

      I think it’s a cliche that the people who really push our buttons are the ones who remind us of our dysfunctional (or worse) parents. It’s certainly true of me.

  516. Mo2k9us*

    This is infuriating….Jane is a professional who knows her worth. Entry level or not, if a manager is uncomfortable with someone because they’re rightfully assertive, the manager is the problem! Respect goes both ways and continuously not getting paid is unacceptable to ANYONE. I don’t care who you are. Why in hell would she need to assert that it cannot happen again??? It should have been offered by her manager. The fact that this “person” is referring to herself as a “superior” makes me wonder…truth be told, this “superior” is actually intimidated by Jane’s abilities and accompanying confidence.

    This toxic work culture is annoying.

  517. thatirishguyyh*

    I can’t believe this person’s nerve. Who do they think they are? High horse indeed. She is lucky all Jane did was request a meeting.

    Sounds like Jane might have a possible job position to look forward to.

  518. iceyone444*

    How long would the manager last without getting paid – they need to apologise to Jane and also make sure it never happens again.

    A true leader would have advocated for their staff, kept them in the loop and made sure it didn’t happen again – the o.p should step down from management.

    It wouldn’t surprise me if Jane leaves within 3-6 months, chances are this manager is a nightmare who never supports their staff.

  519. dualcyclone*

    Wow, perhaps OP should go report themselves to HR, and take a demotion. It’s clear they neither understand the responsibilities of the company, nor the responsibilities of being directly responsible for managing staff.

  520. Wow Just Wow*

    I can’t believe that someone who manages people could be this completely out of touch with the needs of her staff.

  521. Rob*

    If Jane is an hourly employee, corporate counsel desperately needs to explain the concept of liquidated damages under the FLSA to this numbskull, who will then be glad payroll only had to give Jane gift cards and not double the amount it failed to pay her the first pay period, and triple the second (which failure would arguably have been willful since Jane had alerted them to their first failure to pay her).

  522. Z. P.*

    On top of all this reader’s utter failures of a purely managerial nature, they also managed to totally mangle an idiom. If being “too big for your britches” is what connotes sass and not knowing one’s “proper” place, then describing Jane as having “really big britches” would seem to indicate that she’s perfectly behaved.

    The manager managed to be unintentionally correct, since Jane’s behavior was warranted and well within the bounds of propriety, and thus fit quite comfortably into her metaphorical britches, but it’s clear that that’s not the meaning the manager intended to convey, and so it becomes one more item to tally in their roster of incompetencies.

  523. Nick*

    The manager is 100% correct in saying that Jane should be transferred to a different department. In fact, anyone with any self respect should be transferred out of that department ASAP for the sake of their own sanity.

  524. Joe*

    I hope the person asking is really open to changing their ways, or is close to retirement. This kind of attitude is NOT helpful as a people leader. One of the people I supervised had almost the exact same situation. I paid them money from my own pocket, and I was the one on the phone with payroll chewing them a new one. A people leader takes care of their people.

  525. Stuart Smith*

    I have had way too many experiences with guys like this. It seems to be a very prevalent mentality among middle and upper managers. I was once told by a Vice President of Human Resources that it was inappropriate to demand anything from your boss.

    I laughed in his face and stated that although having an expectation to receive everything I demand is unreasonable, that I could and would demand anything that was required to perform my job. He was referencing the Vice President to whom I reported that asked me to buy a $500 piece of equipment myself that was required by the company to perform a task. He pointed out that if I bought it myself, I’d be able to use it personally whenever I wanted. I actually had to point out that I didn’t need this piece of equipment, the company did. I added that I’d be happy to explain to the customers that the task they had paid us to perform couldn’t be completed.

    This same Vice President also once asked me to give him my married sister in laws phone number since his divorce has just be finalized.

    I also once worked for a guy ( Director level ) who demanded that I ignore server errors in order to complete helpdesk tickets. I did as he asked, and instead came in early and worked off the clock in order to go through logs and troubleshoot. He responded by coming in earlier and earlier so he could direct me to perform other tasks. His goal didn’t seem to be to accomplish anything other than to prevent me from accomplishing my goal. I assume that he felt I was challenging his authority in some way. It turns out that eventually someone noticed that our website has been defaced and malicious software installed. At that point in time he wanted me to work though Lunch in order to report to senior leadership about the security of the network and servers. Not interested in prevention, just putting on a show after the fact.

    It feels like I’ve spent my career being managed by people who just wanted to be “in charge” rather than have responsibility. It’s disappointing to realize that many “leaders” have never received any kind of training or assistance understanding their obligations, compliance with the law, or how to behave appropriately.

  526. Mike Kochslong*

    Seniority at the workplace is a thing that old companies have held onto. It’s the young people who keep workspaces / equipment up to standards when companies want anything but to be stale.

    The person who wrote this has an inferiority complex that is bleeding into her work. She needs to look at herself for the answer to the problem. You’re the reason a lot of people don’t want to return to the office: even when someone is successful, you aren’t cheering them on: AND THEY PLAY ON YOUR TEAM. Grow up.

  527. E C*

    YAASSS at this response. I’m going to spend the next hour swimming through the comment section. Thank you for standing up for the underdog.

  528. Doomsday*

    I wished this surprised me but it doesn’t. There are too many managers out in the workplace just like this one. They are overly sensitive, fragile, and out of their damn minds. The office is just a place they come to get their ego stroked and their bums kissed.

    And this crap here….
    “Too big for her britches”
    “…entry level, not in charge”
    “…financial irresponsible…”

    She (mgr) doesn’t view Jane with adequate respect and it doesn’t have anything to do with Jane’s justifiable frustration. Mgr, at a minimum, subscribes to classism. She thinks Jane is beneath her in more ways than one. If this same situation happened to someone the Mgr viewed as an equal or a friend – she’d have acknowledged the anger as justified and she be applauding their bravery.

  530. Can we stop being Karens already?*

    Imagine complaining when the company that is legally required to pay you doesn’t. What an terrible shame that this person asks for fair wages for their time. Pity you can’t exploit this person further and that they had the nerve to defend themselves from your company’s incompetence.

  531. Wowza*

    Wow, this is insane. OP you are not the kind of person who should be managing any human being. You are basically a garbage boss if this is your reaction to this situation.

    I HOPE ‘jane’ becomes your boss sometime soon. god damn.

  532. Palya*

    Payroll screwed me over three cycles in a row by not paying my child support.

    My ex, not unnaturally, was a bit upset by that, which meant me forwarding the child support amount.

    Even so, the third time it happened she went ballistic, arguing it was deliberate because no payroll department was that bad. End result I couldn’t go see my son that weekend.

    Well, it was a bad time of year. Crazy hours project leading a downsizing exercise (early 2009), and a really close friend dying of brain cancer. Even by my standards, sunshine was not emanating from my person.

    After a snappy meeting, my boss asked me what was going on. Tears followed as I recounted the whole story, and explained I couldn’t go see the numpties in payroll because there was no way THAT was going to end well.

    My boss was a lovely woman. Aside from being technically great, she looked after her people, but was a real sweetheart. In 11 years she raised her voice once and cussed once. Aside from this. She told me to wait there, and strode off.

    I heard from witnesses that it was quite a scene. She absolutely tore them apart, piece by piece, starting quietly, raising her voice, and then getting really quiet as she warned them that if I sued, she’d be first to back me. Not what you want to hear from the no2 to the CHRO.

    THAT’S the approach you should have taken OP. If payroll screw the pouch, you back your people to the hilt.

  533. Jack_Skellington*

    Good on Jane for handling the situation, the fact that her manager has this warped view of reality is frightening and I really hope that they don’t warp another situation and create more problems for Jane or other employees who “lack respect”.

  534. Sludge*

    I genuinely can’t believe there is a website where bad managers out themselves, without a shred of self-awareness

    My jaw was on the floor reading this

  535. Jordan Lund*

    A couple of things…
    1) It sounds like Jane missed THREE paydays before involving management. Her initial onboarding payday, the one following, and her managers “today was payday again.” At my job that would be 1.5 months of pay.
    2) Jane had the email chain showing she did everything correctly to resolve the issue BEFORE bringing it up to management. Life lesson #1 – document EVERYTHING.
    Everything the employee did was appropriate and to the letter and if her manager doesn’t like it, ask them (being generous here, you know it was a “him”, not a “them”) how they would like not being paid for a month and a half.

    1. thestik*

      According to Allisonn the OP is a woman (something I admit I suspected from the wordingbof the letter).

  538. Teun Kloosterman*

    You need to be aware of the fact that you (as a manager) are indeed employed for and even by employees like Jane who do the actual earning. The fact that you didn’t actively correct the payroll mistake when you first heard of it made Jane do your job and arranging the meeting with HR. All this loss of productivity is fully on your account, you made the performance suffer due to doubt and mistrust, your inactions caused her physical downtime and I guess you didn’t pick up the slack while she was in the HR meeting fixing your problems.

  539. Chad H*

    The only thing “Jane” has done wrong here IMO is be too generous with her patience. You don’t pay? You don’t get work until you do.

  540. The internet IT guy*

    I seriously wonder if the letterwriter is the same of the one that lost ‘his best employee’ after refusing a 2 hour (!) come in late to attend her own graduation.
    https://www.askamanager.org/2016/07/my-best-employee-quit-on-the-spot-because-i-wouldnt-let-her-go-to-her-college-graduation.html

    The vibe I get is very similar – out of touch, no common sense, inflated sense of superiority over ‘underlings’ ..
    And being so totally wrong about how to manage.

    1. esmerelda*

      I was just thinking this letter’s tone felt wayy too familiar! I… kind of hope it’s the same person because I want to believe the best about the world, that only one person like this exists.

  541. Shirtless Old Man*

    Sounds like Alison comes from a time where respect is demanded and not earned. I’m sure she touts the “in my day” or “my generaton” speeches often.

    2. Presea*

      The italicized text towards the top of the post is someone else writing in to get Alison’s advice. Alison’s actual response is the non-italicized part beneath it. If you re-read with that in mind, you can see that the Letter Writer (LW) is the one who’s being unreasonable, not Alison. Hope that helps!

  542. Acton Brovest*

    I’ve been seeing some crazy letters from your column being posted on Reddit recently (sadly, often without a direct link to your actual column, just screenshots). I really want to hear more from these managers, and others that agree with them, to understand the perspective and life experience which have lead them to these outlooks on how work is conducted.

  543. Kri0*

    Not 2 times did the mess up but 3 times. That’s either 6 weeks with no pay or god forbid 3 months. You’re not only wrong you’re borderline criminal.

  544. esmerelda*

    Based on my experience, this letter reads like an American boomer man looking down on a younger female. The audacity in that letter is flooring. Jane needs our thoughts and prayers if she decides to keep working there.

  545. MargoRolls*

    Straight up should not be a manager. You can’t handle people because you lack empathy. It’s not your place to speculate on someone’s financial situation. It’s also not your place to even weigh in on the situation other than remedying it for your employee, who you should have the back of. Unfortunately, I fear this employee will be faced with unwarranted scrutiny going forward because of this incidence and how incredibly backward minded you are about management.

  546. Shelli*

    LORDY! The original poster needs to get with the program. It’s her JOB to make sure her employees are paid ON TIME. END OF SENTENCE.

    It’s NONE of her business WHAT anyone does with their paycheck. Literally NONE.

    I would NOT want to work under this manager at all, and if I were in the new hire’s shoes, well, she was actually NICE about it, to be honest!

  548. Goldie*

    My last boss was like this, very sensitive to perceived slights and had a reputation for bullying anyone who was confident and competent. She surrounded herself with sycophants, and the people who managed to stay in her good graces were rewarded with advancement. Then she had the nerve to act bewildered about the high turnover and hunt for scapegoats.

    Unfortunately, she was the executive director and there was no system for accountability at the organization, so there was no chance of her changing. This response to the OP was a vicarious thrill for me – good for Jane and HR!

  550. Brae*

    Wow. I appreciate this response so much. It is so validating to hear this. The audacity this manager has to even write this letter thinking she was in the right blows my mind. Thank you.

  551. ReinaB*

    That’s a lot of words to call someone “uppity” without calling them “uppity.”

    I don’t know how this person manage to become a manager anywhere. The needless speculation on Jane’s ability to handle her budget, the apparently demand that Jane be obsequious when explaining to someone who did not pay her that this mess up with her money cannot happen again.

    I’ve had a similar issue with someone before and when they had the nerve to imply it was my fault the check was stolen because of the neighborhood I lived in, I let them no quite plainly that I don’t work for free and that I expected the check to be replaced.

    Deciding that you want to push someone to a different department because they did what they had to do when you didn’t pay them is some nerve. Based on how this manager is going on, I can’t help but think that Jane is Black and that this manager is reacting to a Black woman daring to speak plainly.

    This person should not be allowed to be “manage” anyone, especially Jane.

  552. Phone Sales Girl*

    Ridiculously out of touch manager aside, it doesn’t matter if “Jane” lives paycheck to paycheck or has no bills and the entire check is just for “fun money” (this obviously isn’t the case based on what OP says). That is money that she earned by working the job she was told she would be paid for.

    OP it is none of your business what Jane’s financial situation is, if she wanted those paychecks to buy gummy bears and a pony she would be just as justified in being upset about not being paid for a month.

  553. Rupert Teh Bear*

    Good for Jane. You should never tolerate not getting paid on time as agreed. The rest of the world doesn’t give us this luxury so why should we give the world this luxury in return? You should be on payroll and HR’s asses too.

  554. LisTF*

    So late to the comment party on this one but had to share my reaction:
    *Sharp breath intake* *hands, palm together, chest height*
    Wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiittttttttttttcccccccccccchhhhhhhh
    (The real word was not witch)

  555. Candi*

    Soooo I showed this in chat to some of my friends -we like to share fun, astonishing, and WTF things with each other.

    Completely slipped my mind one works in payroll. Highest position in their store, and is the go-to person for dozens of stores in their region. The only reason they don’t have a higher “rank” is they refuse to move from hourly to salary, due to salary often having to put in overtime. As for hourly -it’s Oz.

    Anyway, they gave a long explanation of how they handle things and prioritize, what they wouldn’t do (no, manager, they won’t “forget” to add the thing just so you can come in under balance), what they will do (and manager, you’re getting reported for asking to violate frigging pay law), and so on. Summary:

    If they’d dealt with OP on a professional basis OP would have been packed out of HR’s door with a flea in her ear and her manager would have heard of her behavior.

    If they’d dealt with OP on a personal basis, it’d be cage-match worthy.

  556. SwingingAxeWolfie*

    As soon as I saw the word “respectful” in the subject line I knew where this was going. Don’t get me wrong, “respect” is something we all need and to give, but whenever people talk about being disrespected, it’s usually some power thing and not actually what respect is about.

    Also, there’s a whiff of misogyny going on here – if the LW is a woman, it’ll just be the internal kind. I’d find it more surprising to see a letter like this if the employee was a man either way.

  557. Heffalump*

    “I’m just kind of floored that she’s getting gift cards after speaking to her superiors like that. “

    Gift cards were more than warranted. Even if the way Jane talked to her superiors had been improper (it wasn’t), that would be a separate issue.

  558. Philo Pharynx*

    The best managers I’ve had would help their reports focus on their work. They would deal with company issues like this as soon as they found out about them. One of them said, “Your job is to fly the plane. I’ll give you the schedule and the map. I’ll keep the route clear, the fuel tanks full and I’ll even sweep the runway when I have to. Just let me know what I need to do to keep you flying.”

    It wasn’t about the power dynamics. It was about keeping everything running well.

  560. Jim Elliott*

    This is an excellent response to a horrible manager. Jane’s problem isn’t that she is insubordinate; it’s that her boss is a terrible manager and can’t discern shift supervision from workplace leadership. Which, unfortunately, is an all-too-common occurrence.

  561. devans00*

    Excellent response Alison @AskAManager.

    My mouth kept falling open again and again. The utter gall to think a junior employee must tolerate not getting paid for two paychecks because reasons. I hope she found out what a wretched person her manager is and gets that transfer to anew department. Junior employee’s professionalism and good decision making skills will take her far.

  563. Fayman*

    Title is actually “I wasn’t respectful enough after the company messed up an employee’s paycheck.”

    This is classic projection. Some people reflect, some people project. She projects.

  564. Mark*

    I fortunately haven’t had a “boss” in years, but seeing situations like this makes me want scope out places for shitty managers like you, and get hired there just to make their lives hell. You deserve nothing but the worst, rot in a hole.

  566. pyrodice*

    Her personal finances ARE the company’s responsibility. You have a contract. She does the work, you pay the bills. BOTH halves of that are binding. And whether or not she’s barely making ends meet or coasting nicely, that’s not anyone else’s problem, and a white lie at worst. If someone didn’t pay me the first time, and it came to the second time, and I needed to raise
    Imagine if YOUR customers took your work and walked out going “oh, sure thought I paid y’all! Huh. Well, I’ll get you next time!” At that point, they’re no longer actually a customer, and the sort of respect they’re due is, in fact, altered.

  567. JarMa13*

    I’m sorry, I do not believe you are sane. Her behavior is 100% appropriate. This issue had already been fixed but she still hasn’t been paid. Saying it HAS to be righted today or she can no longer work for this company is totally understandable.
    It’s not an idle threat. It’s the reality of the HORRIBLE imposition she has been put in by the incompetence of whoever fixed it the first time.
    She wasn’t disrespectful. She was direct and honest.
    To be frank, I’d be extremely suspicious if I were her.
    We don’t live in a world where you can miss two paychecks without losing your home.
    I feel she is entitled to double pay for everything until she is paid to undo the damage your company has done to her finances.

    I fail to see what wasn’t respectful. Seems to me she’s been tremendously patient and understanding. She is within her right to be demanding you pay damages.
    It sounds to me like she possesses qualities you don’t and you’re threatened by it, so you’re trying to rationalize it as a flaw to justify getting her out of your sight so you no longer have to be confronted with your own weaknesses.
    Try being honest with yourself.

  570. RosemaryMarian*

    Crikey bobs, a person who’s been able to cope with three missed paychecks sounds like a person who’s saved pretty damn well – or been very fortunate. I’d be 2 months in default on rent and dealing with eviction notices at that point. But as others have said it’s none of the OP’s business how Jane manages her personal finances, the OP’s attitude is inexcusable.

  571. JWriter*

    The entire point of a job is to get paid for your work. Without pay it’s just a volunteer position. I can’t even imagine how deluded the LW is to think Jane is wrong for advocating for her own basic needs from the company benefitting from her labor. I’ve heard that phrase “too big for her britches” used in the southern US, and it typically is designed to “pit someone in their place,” which already isn’t OK 99.9% of the time. But come on — not paying someone for several pay cycles would be terrifying for most of us, especially in a new gig. I’m glad HR got Jane taken care of eventually.

  572. Guy Clapperton*

    Here’s a vote in favour of the HR and payroll person who acknowledged responsibility and did everything they could to rectify the position.

    The writer is right in one respect – the employee’s management of her money is none of the company’s business. *Until* it fails to pay a sum it owed and on which she had every right to be expecting and factoring into her budget.

    (And in case the writer decides this is yet another of these young people comemntinf who have this sense of entitlement and disrespect, I’m 56).

  573. Ranessa*

    This manager needs a reality check and may be in the wrong profession! One mistake I can understand but TWO?? No ma’am! I do payroll for our business and there are protocols and steps to take to ensure employees are paid on time and correctly! If there’s a mistake (on our end) we fix it immediately! Bad managers turn good employees sour!

  574. KM_*

    I bet the manager is now hoping that “Jane” does not stumble her way to this post, as it does contain a very specific situation with specific things “Jane” did. If “Jane” does find her way here, how would this NOT be considered work place harassment/hostile workplace? That HR worker needs to be questioned to for what can be considered conspiring against “Jane” based on THEIR screw-up.

    This manager does not deserve to be a manager if they think like this. Respect is not based on position on the totem pole, but based on the actions of the individuals.

  575. Candi*

    Respect is not based on position on the totem pole, but based on the actions of the individuals.

    (applauds) As the expression goes, once more for the people in the back!

  576. Michael Clarkson*

    Respect is earned. Being a manager earns you exactly zero respect. In this situation a good manager would have run down this payroll issue the first time it happened to ensure it never happened again. A bad manager would say their employee is “too big for their britches” because she demanded immediate action to fix a missing paycheck. A bad manager would demand unearned respect while doing exactly nothing to earn it. A bad manager would feel entitled to bag on a whole generation because they don’t put up with incompetence. A bad manager should resign immediately as it would be the best course of action.

  577. Sibyl Rose*

    Yeah as I read this letter, my jaw kept dropping inch by inch until it finally hit the floor. A lot of speculation about OP’s gender and age, but here’s my take. She (yes, definitely a she, IMO) came up through the ranks at a time when one pledged everything including their firstborn to the company and groveled thankfully for every crumb the company flicked in their direction.

    Thank god those days are over, but OP is stuck in this dynamic and deeply resentful of the young whippersnappers who have no intention of ruining their knees in obedience nor swallowing their frustration in favor of passive aggression. She (rightly) foresees her inability to deal with Jane in anything approaching a professional way. And to say she’s threatened by Jane is the understatement of the year.

  578. arizhel*

    Overspent, didn’t prioritize bills, or save smartly? Did you miss the part where she *didn’t get paid* for three full pay periods? When your employer agrees to pay you x amount every pay period, you budget and spend accordingly. This is *not* on her, and your attitude about her getting justifiable help is absolutely deplorable.

Comments are closed.