coworker is angry that I advocated for myself, freelancer drama, and more

by Alison Green on September 19, 2024

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. My coworker is angry that I advocated for myself when I was hired

I work as a contractor at a company. I’m paid hourly and work a normal 40-hour work week. My coworker got curious about my contract and my schedule, and I was happy to answer some questions but not others. She got upset because I mentioned that I was very clear with what I wanted in this job when interviewing and when I was considering the offer. I even rejected an initial offer and later received a better offer.

I worry my coworker may make drama about it and cause others to become jealous as well. My manager seems to be happy with my work. I asked my coworker why she was upset and who she was upset with. Her answer in short is me because I shouldn’t be able to make demands during my interview. Do I ignore this and what do I do if it becomes drama?

Advocating for yourself and being clear on what it would take for you to accept a job isn’t “making demands”; it’s managing your career well and being appropriately assertive. If your coworker thinks people shouldn’t do that, that’s very sad for her; she’s internalized some seriously harmful beliefs.

Any chance you have the kind of relationship with her where you could say, “I was surprised you didn’t think people could or should do this in interviews. I regularly do it, and so do a lot of other people. I’d be glad to share with you how I’ve approached it in the past and what has worked, and you could try it yourself and hopefully negotiate well in future jobs.” (Make sure you say this in a genuinely warm and helpful tone, not a patronizing one.)

2. Do I thank someone for sending me work if he’s in a dispute with my friend?

A couple of years ago, a friend of mine, Gary, started a small company in the field in which I freelance. He hired Sean to be the manager. Neither Gary nor Sean lives in my city, but I saw them once while they were visiting; that’s the only time I’ve met Sean in person.

Sean oversaw a project I did for their company. He didn’t give me feedback for months, and when he did it was minimal. (I know I turned in solid work so this didn’t necessarily raise any flags for me.)

Fast forward about a year: Gary says that Sean is causing problems because he’s not giving feedback to anyone or performing the majority of the work he was hired to do. Being so behind schedule on everything was costing Gary thousands of dollars; he even had to take a second job to pay his rent. Eventually this led to a board meeting in which Sean was ousted.

Sean was, by all accounts, shocked, despite the fact that (according to Gary) he had been spoken to multiple times about these issues. There were threats of lawsuits, many dramatic emails, etc. But in the end, Sean disappeared into the ether. Gary is my friend, so I know I’m inclined to be on his side, but the fact that everyone else involved seemed to think Sean was the issue, plus the fact that it mirrored my own experience with him, made me think this wasn’t a witch hunt.

Fast forward six months: I get an email from someone interested in having me do some easy, well-paid freelance work … and they got my name from Sean. (Sean did not contact me to let me know he had referred me or follow up with me in any way.)

This freelance work has truly been a godsend — it’s my only steady stream of revenue at the moment. Do I have to thank Sean? We’ve only met once, have no relationship outside of the fact that we very briefly worked together, and he nearly made my friend homeless. Gary is so upset by the whole thing that I honestly believe he would see any communication with Sean as a betrayal.

But also, the referral was kind of him and extremely helpful. I’m a midwestern millennial woman, so the idea of not thanking him is crushing me with guilt but I know that that might be a me problem!

You don’t have to thank Sean, but you should. He referred you for easy, well-paid work that’s providing key income for you. It’s something you’d presumably like him to do again. And you don’t have any beef with Sean; Gary does. As badly as Sean’s work for Gary might have gone, that’s not really your business. (And for what it’s worth, Gary was Sean’s manager so he bears some responsibility for letting the problems go on as long as they did.)

Ultimately, you’re not involved in the Gary/Sean dispute and Sean referred you for work that you’re glad to have. If Gary takes issue with you sending him a civil thanks for that, Gary would be being a bad friend. (But also, you’re not obligated to disclose any of this to him.)

3. How to avoid burning out if you love your job

I landed a job I love so much. Let’s say I have a hobby of making banana pants, and I enjoy every aspect of it, even the stuff that most people dislike. Now I’ve gotten a job where I make banana pants for work. So I spend at least eight hours a day making banana pants, then I come home and do my hobby of making banana clothing for myself over the weekend. I try to keep a good work life balance, but I often find myself so engrossed in my work during the day that even if I intend to leave at 4, I often end up leaving at 6 because I’m just having too much fun — and even then I only leave at 6 because the train station nearest my work closes at 6:30. And that’s not even mentioning the times where I’ll bring my work projects home.

Due to my specific cocktail of neurodivergence, I also have trouble noticing that I’m not doing well until it’s too late. I don’t want to wake up one day and be like, “Oh wow, I am super depressed right now and have been for the past two months.” (Which has happened to me more than once.) I also don’t want to lose my love of making banana pants, which I’m afraid will happen if I keep going at the pace I’m going at.

Am I setting myself up for disaster here? If my hobby is making banana pants, am I still at risk for burnout? And if so, what are the signs of burnout and how can I combat it when my hobby is my job?

I do think you’re at risk of burnout even when you love your job. In fact, loving an activity and throwing yourself into it to the point that it consumes most of your waking hours is … kind of prime conditions for eventual burnout. Probably not this year! Maybe not next year. But eventually.

My advice is to find something else that you also love, or at least like a lot, and be deliberate about carving out space for it in your life too, so that your brain has more to engage it than just all banana pants all the time. I used to think the cure for burn-out was lots of downtime and relaxation — and sometimes it is — but what’s worked better for me personally is regularly using my brain for something completely different. Otherwise you’re just wearing the same grooves into it all the time and (at least for me) that’s been where my worst burn-out has come from.

4. Is this an exception to the “gifts flow downward” rule?

As someone who has managed many people in my long career, I fully support the “gifts flow downward” rule that you have expressed. This might be an exception though, and I’d like your opinion. My boss has invited our team of 8-10 senior-level colleagues to her house for a casual weekend afternoon together, along with our plus-ones. I’m generally a “don’t show up empty-handed” kind of person, so I want to bring something reasonable like a small plant or bottle of wine. That seems appropriate, right? Our boss is a supportive leader with good professional/personal boundaries, by the way.

That’s fine to do. You don’t need to do it — this is ultimately a work gathering, in the guise of a social one, so you don’t need to, but it’s likely to be perceived as gracious if you do. If you were very junior, I’d lean more on the side of nah, but you’re senior so the dynamics change a bit.

That said, unless you know your boss is a plant lover, I personally would not bring a plant or anything else that will require ongoing care, since for some people that’s like handing them a chore wrapped in pretty paper. But the general idea is fine!

5. Will having two two-year job stints damage my career?

I’ve been working in a male-dominated industry (97% men) and have always been the only woman on my team. Over the course of four years with my previous employer, I brought in $22 million for the company, but despite my success, I never received a promotion or a salary increase. After numerous attempts to negotiate for fair recognition, they refused, so I decided to leave. I accepted an executive position that was highly regarded in my field, becoming the only woman on the board. Unfortunately, it turned out to be a mistake. I was bullied constantly and denied the responsibilities we had agreed upon during the interview. The CEO even told me he would fire me if I got pregnant, claiming that mothers should stay home. After enduring two years of mistreatment, I resigned.

Now, I feel embarrassed for making the wrong choice and worry about how having a two-year stint on my resume might look. I’m also feeling pressure to stay long-term with my new employer, but I’m unsure if that’s what I want. They’ve assigned me to work in a developing country, 20 hours away from my family. The noise pollution here is unbearable. I haven’t been able to sleep through the night since I moved here. I’m okay with this arrangement for two years, but I’m concerned that having two consecutive two-year positions will reflect poorly on my resume. What do you think? I’ve been crying every night, overwhelmed with anxiety about my career path.

Leave! Please leave.

In the vast majority of fields, two two-year stints would not be a big deal at all. That’s well within the realm of “pretty normal” these days! Now, if you have four or five two-year stints in a row, it could be a bigger deal — but even that wouldn’t raise eyebrows in a lot of fields. (It would be more likely to be an issue for jobs where they expect and need people to stay longer than that, which still gives you access to a ton of jobs.)

Do be sure to do due diligence on the next job before you accept it since ideally you’d stay at the next one longer. But even then there’s no guarantee — jobs evolve, managers move on, life circumstances change.

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{ 354 comments }

{ 354 comments… read them below or add one }

  1. Daria grace*

    #3 I agree with Alison’s advice about using your brain for something different to reduce the likelihood of burn out. I’d extend that to say find something that engages your body differently if you are physically able to do so. If you’re indoors a lot consider an outdoor hobby. If you’re looking at screens a lot at work consider something that doesn’t involve screens. If you’re working with your hands a lot, consider taking up hiking/running/yoga/something else physical that doesn’t use your hands so much.

    #5 even if you’d been at your previous job less than 2 years, being required to move to a developing country a long way from family where the living conditions are impacting your health is an incredibly reasonable reason to quit most people will understand.

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    1. Michelle*

      It’s funny, when I read Alison’s advice it occurred to me that the reason I don’t burn out on my hobbies is because they’re so opposite: one is indoor, cerebral, on a computer screen, and takes up most of my day. The other is exercise – I love running and other intense outdoor physical stuff, and I spend about an hour a day on that. I think you’re right that the body/physical aspect makes a good counterpart to a hobby that’s mostly stationary.

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    2. HannahS*

      OP3, I completely agree. I also think that some mental reframing could be helpful–it’s not “ugh I have to leave work because I want to avoid burnout” and “ugh I can’t allow myself to enjoy my job and hobby too much because I’ll get burnt out” but instead, “Hurray, when I leave work, I have lots of time and energy for other things AND I look forward to going back the next day!” and “I get to do lots of different things AND this will let me enjoy my job even more!”

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      1. ferrina*

        Love this take. I was a chronic over-doer until I realized that over-doing meant that I actually did less. I do more when I take time to relax, but I felt guilty about relaxing. When I reframed it as “doing nothing is an investment in productivity”, it helped me let go of the guilt and focus more on the relaxation.

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      2. Slow Gin Lizz*

        I am a firm believer in the notion of “leaving the audience wanting more.” I have a hobby that is physically demanding (hiking) and when I first started doing it I went all-in, doing long hikes and driving 3+ hours most weekends to do so. Then I started burning out on a hobby that I truly love, where I’d get to the point on most hikes that I was mentally DONE several miles before the hike was over and was pretty miserable for the rest of the hike, despite still loving hiking overall. Or I’d have a trip planned and actually be dreading it, again despite loving hiking.

        I finally realized that I could also leave *myself* wanting more and plan hikes that were for the length that I enjoyed, so that I would finish the hike before I was mentally done, and do more local hikes that might not be as spectacular but would be a lot less effort and time spent getting there.

        OP, give yourself permission to leave yourself wanting more, to quit before you are DONE (in the emotional/metaphorical sense of the word). Since you said you have issues sometimes with paying attention to your own needs (hello fellow ND, I have that problem too; why would I want to take time away from something I love to make myself dinner??), maybe try to see if having a food-related goal for your week helps you? Just a suggestion. Or if you have friends you like to hang out with, see if meeting them for dinner regularly would work (one on one or as a group; don’t make it complicated though or it won’t happen).

        I also like Daria’s idea of finding something to do in your non-work hours that is very different from your work. I’m a part-time freelance musician who has trouble with her hands, so hiking works really well for me both because I don’t have to use my hands much and also because exercise is good to help loosen up all my muscles and avoid straining my hands. Could you schedule yourself for daily walks during your lunch break? Make use of an alarm so you actually remember to take them?

        Good luck, OP, I’m so happy for you that you found a job you love and are taking steps to avoid burnout!

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        1. MigraineMonth*

          Great perspective! Sometimes less is better.

          Also with you on the time-blindness when involved in something. I have a literal appointment on my calendar, with reminders, for “Leave Work”.

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      3. Higher Ed Cube Farmer*

        Cosigning Daria grace, HanahS and ferrina’s advice about reframing and complementing your work+hobby focus for better balance and more sustainable enjoyment.

        Having that balance in both thinking and activity also helps if an element of moral injury (or just disillusionment that doesn’t rise to the level of injury) comes up. If your entire life and sense of enjoyment is focused on one thing and that thing goes bad, it can be much more damaging than if you have other things to turn to.

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    3. Nicosloanica*

      Yep, this is what I came to realize when my hobby became a side hustle. It didn’t happen right away, but eventually the stress of deadlines and external judgement took a lot of the joy out of my former hobby, and now I had no hobby because I had monetized it. What I really needed was a new hobby. I picked gardening because it was the opposite of the other types of work I do.

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      1. Lenora Rose*

        I know a writer who took up guitar as a hobby for two reasons. One was that her hobby was now her career, with the attendant deadlines and stress — the other was that she needed to re-learn how to be bad at something and have fun anyhow, while learning to get better. Both seemed to matter to stave off burnout.

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        1. Slow Gin Lizz*

          I’m a violist and still freelance part-time, but boy did I haaaaaate being a full-time musician. And it’s only in the last few years, 10 years after I got a non-music FT job, that I have been able to play music for fun, just because I want to and it’s so very enjoyable to be able to do it without pressure or major deadlines or woodshedding for hours and days on end to make sure I do everything perfectly.

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      2. Elizabeth West*

        Another thing that stood out to me is that the OP’s hobby is the same as their job. They literally can’t get away from it to reset their brain.

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        1. Nicosloanica*

          Yep, that’s really tough. Although I know some people it would work for; I mean, there’s always Olympians every four years claiming that they are literally happiest doing nothing but their sport for 12 hours a day. That’s not something I could handle for long personally. I like the comment above about needing to create space to be bad at something and play and deliberately mix it up.

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          1. MigraineMonth*

            I’m in software development, and I’ve definitely run into an expectation that I also do software projects on the side. Yes, you work 40-50 hour weeks at your main job, but surely you also program when you get home for fun/clout/to learn new skills/so you can launch your own company.

            No. I do my work and learning at work, I come home and *stop working*. I don’t care if the software giants and hottest startups are founded by guys who can work 100 hour weeks, my brain needs downtime, family and friends.

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    4. Jackalope*

      For #5: in most fields, being asked to move to another country far away from your family is an understandable reason to want to move on even without that specific country not working out for you. There are some fields where you’re expected to move around a fair bit, including internationally, but for the most part staying in your home country is a reasonable ask.

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    5. DJ Hymnotic*

      Speaking as a survivor of severe burnout (I resigned from a job I had moved my family cross-country for after just 18 months), burnout isn’t just a matter of overwork or over-immersion in your field–although that’s often certainly a factor! I believe it’s a breakdown of covenant or social contract with your field, which is why I think we see such high rates of burnout in professions like teaching and nursing. The mistreatment its practitioners are expected to take from the general public and hostile management (political school boards, profit-obsessed execs) just keeps increasing **in addition to** the many hours spent devoted to their craft.

      The practices you suggest can definitely help in finding some balance and even escape from one’s field so that it does not become all-consuming, and it can create an invaluable preventive layer of equilibrium if LW’s relationship with their work is negatively impacted. At the same time, hoping for hiking or yoga to address the moral injury of being done wrong by your career is just too much to expect of it, or of any other commonly suggested self-care practices.

      (I want to be clear that I’m not saying I see any such moral injury being described by LW. What I am saying is that I think burnout tends to become much, much more likely if/when moral injury gets combined with the sort of overwork LW that is describing, even with self-care practices in place, if that makes sense.)

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      1. Former Librarian of SHIELD*

        I used to be a librarian, and you just perfectly described the reason I can’t be anymore. Describing the cause of that burnout as moral injury is perfect framing. Thank you for putting that into words in a way I’ve been struggling to do for years.

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      2. Hola Playa*

        Whoa. Mind blown.

        This perspective really helps me realize why days off and massages aren’t helping my burnout. In.The.Least.

        Thanks for this brilliance!

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        1. DJ Hymnotic*

          I truly hope you are able to find some relief or escape from your burnout soon. It’s tough and massages and bubble baths don’t fix it (and we end up feeling broken when we’re told that they’re supposed to fix it).

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      3. Nicosloanica*

        Good point, I hate when structural issues like chronically bad work conditions are reframed as personal failures, like “self care” and yoga and facials can make up for brutal exploitation.

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        1. DJ Hymnotic*

          A big, big reason why I am no longer in the particular nonprofit sector where I began my career is because way too many dysfunctional employers preach the importance of self care to their employees while brazenly taking advantage of those employees’ sense of vocation and purpose. After executing a significant career pivot, part of my job now is to offer resources and support for other employees at risk of burning out, and I am paid market value for my work. It’s such a contrast.

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      4. It Actually Takes a Village*

        This is so bang on, thank you for sharing.

        LW #3, as a neurospicy person who burned out hard from my passion career (self-employed) and is trying to navigate both the healing from the actual physical brain and body damage that burnout causes PLUS the mental/emotional/spiritual damage it causes, the advice on this thread, including Alison’s is fantastic.

        The problem with doing something you love for money is that everything we do for money comes with strings and stress. You will compromise yourself eventually. The more successful you become, the worse it is, actually. You need to plan for this eventuality. Take care of yourself <3

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    6. Festively Dressed Earl*

      I have ADHD, and it’s hard to shake myself out of it when I’m hyperfixated on something. Beyond using timers etc to remind myself to stop, I also make a point of trying something new once a week. I think of it as shopping for a new hyperfixation.

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    7. Phlox*

      I was just talking with a colleague about this yesterday, because we work in a field where personal and professional are be pretty intermingled. One trick that both of us love is to book regular group exercise classes right after work – so I have to clock out on time because I need to arrive for class on time.

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  2. nnn*

    A bit of self-psychology for #2: as an exercise, craft a thank-you message that is factually correct, irreproachable from an etiquette perspective, and doesn’t in any way suggest that Sean is a good person.

    Don’t automatically send it once you’ve crafted it! Think about it, give it very serious consideration, maybe get a second opinion on how it may or may not be received.

    But the process of writing it will give you some combination of catharsis and insight, and working out the question of whether to send it will also give you some insight.

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    1. MK*

      Frankly, I don’t think OP needs to overthink it that much. This sounds like a pretty casual referral, and OP can send a basic, short and bland thank you email.

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      1. Artemesia*

        This. Of course you don’t discuss it with Gary but you immediately send a message to Sean thanking him for the referral. After all you would like more of that business. A couple lines is all it takes; it is not an endorsement of Sean — it is thanks to a favor Sean did for you.

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        1. Anonym*

          Yep, it’s this. OP is overthinking. The Gary/Sean debacle is between them, even though she’s aware and has a clear viewpoint on it. Sean did her a valuable professional kindness. Just say thanks for the referral!

          If he then tries to bring up the issues from his time with Gary, politely demur. If he persists, ignore.

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          1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

            This. Sean has a different view of his tenure. He thought he was successful. Part of why he thought he was successful was OP’s work. It was good.
            Therefore, his management was good.
            So he is passing on information about a good employee.
            That is the sum total of their relationship.
            OP cannot lose opportunities created by hard work because Gary is (albeit rightfully) mad at Sean.
            Thank him/acknowledge you appreciate the referral.
            And keep Gary out of it.

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            1. Observer*

              OP cannot lose opportunities created by hard work because Gary is (albeit rightfully) mad at Sean.

              That is 100% true. But if Gary is angry enough that he would actually consider a basic thanks for a favor to be a “betrayal”, then his judgement is fairly compromised. But that assumes that the LW is correct that Gary would react that way.

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          2. Ama*

            Yes — I have two former coworkers (all three of us have left our mutual employer at this point) who worked closely together and do not like each other. I had good, collegial relationships with both of them and still do. Whatever happened between them is between them (and to their credit, neither of them has ever tried to get me to take sides). I’d never propose we all meet up together but I have seen both of them socially since we all left and it’s been fine. This isn’t even a social engagement, it’s just saying thank you for a referral.

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      2. Ellis Bell*

        Yeah, if Sean opened a door for OP they would say thank you; it would be petty not to. They should see this in a similar vein. They don’t have to gush over Sean’s persona, they just need to say honestly that they are appreciative of the recommendation and that it’s worked out really well.

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      3. Aeryn*

        Agree.

        “Hey Sean, hope you are well. Just getting in touch to say thanks for referring me for X job! Appreciate you thinking of me”

        Job done. If Gary objects to that, he is the one being unreasonable.

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        1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

          This is perfect. This is a thank you for a referral nothing more. It does not need to be more. Trying to make it more makes it the drama you do not want.

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        2. Fluffy Fish*

          Absolutely this.

          It’s a perfunctory business thank you. OP should not be spending more than a minute or two of time and mental space on this.

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        3. Miette*

          This is very good. I would maybe add what about the job plays into your particular strengths–basically a single sentence as you might use in a cover letter–so that Sean is reminded of what you’re good at (for future referrals).

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      4. UKDancer*

        Yes, I mean just send a polite and bland thank you email and call it done. I wouldn’t even tell Gary about the encounter because it seems like it’s better not to stir things up. I don’t think it’s necessary to think too hard about it. How would you thank a polite acquaintance for giving you the work? Do it that way.

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        1. A Book about Metals*

          I agree overall, but I don’t think I would make it purposely bland unless that’s how OP writes anyway. If it were me and I had no other clients or income and I got a referral I would be pretty darn excited about it!

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      5. Myrin*

        Yeah, I reckon this feels Very Big to OP because she knows all of this dramatic background involving her friend but it’s really okay to put all of that aside and to straightforwardly and neutrally thank Sean for his recommendation (I like Ellis Bell’s wording above).

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      6. Slow Gin Lizz*

        Sean likely won’t respond anyway, given his MO for not actually doing things. He doesn’t even seem like the type to even read any of his emails anyway, so it doesn’t sound like you’ve got anything to lose by sending the email, OP, and if he does read it, it probably will only serve to remind him of your existence and how he thinks you do good work. This could be beneficial to you in the future. Go ahead and send him a short, sweet, polite email and then forget about him entirely.

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      7. Delta Delta*

        This. I get referrals from time to time from sources I don’t expect. I always reach out with a quick thank you email. The Gary/Sean debacle is between them. OP has her own relationship with each of them.

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    2. learnedthehardway*

      No reason for that much introspection! The OP should write a nice thank you to Sean to say they appreciate the recommendation. There’s really nothing to consider here WRT Gary’s reaction – he’d be totally out of line to object to the OP getting work simply because Sean might have referred her to an entirely separate third party. I wouldn’t go out of my way to hide the situation, either. In fact, I might mention to Gary – the next time I did work for his company – that I was surprised that Sean referred me to another project when I hadn’t received any feedback from him about the work I’d done when he was at Gary’s company.

      Of course, that is all predicated on the idea that Sean hasn’t referred you to a company in direct competition with Gary’s company and that Gary is a reasonable individual. I have clients who have tried to put a stake in the ground to prevent me from doing work in “their” industry niche with other competitors. Sometimes, I have had to abide by this, but other times, I’ve been able to point out that it’s a ridiculous requirement (particularly if I’m not actively working with that client). Sometimes, I’ve pointed out that if they would give me more work, I wouldn’t need to look at working with other firms in their niche. Leverage is nice.

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      1. MsM*

        I don’t think OP needs to go out of her way to mention this to Gary, either. If Gary wonders how Sean’s doing for some reason, or they’re talking about the new client and how she got involved with them, she can be honest, but otherwise there’s no real reason he needs to know.

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    3. Bossy*

      Honestly, I think the self psychology would be about considering how on earth one doesn’t know they should thank someone who actually helped them. Because they’re in a fight with your buddy? Gimme a break. This isn’t high school, you know? Also not necessary to inform your friends of all that you do, no need to notify the friend that you thanked Sean for sending you work? This whole thing was a little silly, sorry LW.

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      1. Slow Gin Lizz*

        That’s a bit harsh, sorry, Bossy. I suspect LW just wanted confirmation from someone that it was ok to send the email that she really wanted to send. Sometimes work politics really messes with your head, you know?

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    4. jasmine*

      I’d agree if this is something bothering the OP. I don’t know if my thinking is aligned with Alison on this one. It really depends on OP and OP’s relationship with his friend. Neither option is wrong.

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    6. Bleu*

      How would a standard thank you email suggest that the recipient is or isn’t a good person anyway? Sean did help, so he should be thanked. It’s not that deep and it shouldn’t be that fraught.

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      1. MigraineMonth*

        “Thank you so much for sending Client my way. I appreciate your recommendation! P.S. You are a good, morally upstanding person.”

        Apart from how bizarre that would be in a business correspondence, there’s zero evidence that Sean is a bad person, just that he was bad at his job. Given that it took a year for Gary to fire him, he may not have been managed that well either.

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  3. Ellen Ripley*

    In regards to the answer to letter 3, if you look up “types of rest” you’ll see there are lots of different ways to rest. Sometimes you need physical rest but other times you need to do something creative or to socialize with people you care about or engage in some other activity to “recharge your batteries”. It takes some practice but once you’re aware of these different types of rest you can start to identify which one you need at a given time!

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    1. Sled dog mama*

      So absolutely true about different kinds of rest! I had been really struggling recently and couldn’t figure out why, I was keeping to my regular hours, hobby is going better than ever, getting exercise and plenty of good sleep. Finally got to go to an educational conference for my career and realized that what had been missing was the social connection with my equally weird colleagues.

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    2. wavefunction*

      Are there any particular resources you’d recommend on this subject? It’s something I’d like to learn more about and get better at doing.

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      1. It Actually Takes a Village*

        Look into neurodiverent (ND) burnout. It’s drastically different than neurotypical burnout, because understimulation can be just as harmful for ND brains as overstimulation. :)

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    3. Saturday*

      I’m so interested in this! I think this explains why when I’ve been especially busy, sometimes I try to take a day to just loaf around, and it ends up making me feel edgy and depressed. I feel like I’m really craving a day of doing nothing, but I think I really need to be doing something else. I have had the idea of trying something creative in my head for a while now (even though I’m not a very creative person). Thanks for pointing me to this idea of active ways to rest.

      Reply ↓
      1. MigraineMonth*

        I think that all humans are creative; it’s one of our primary urges. We might not be artistic, or practiced at it, but pretty much all of us can and do create in some form.

        Even if that diamond painting unicorn picture came out so badly it accidentally summoned one of the Forgotten Dark Gods, hey, I still made it!

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    4. Bleu*

      I think another key thing is to not ignore the classic kind of rest- using vacation time and taking time away- just because you currently love your job so much that a couple days off sounds less appealing than getting to do your craft for those days. Ignoring your need for time off upfront will set you up to burn out shortly.

      Reply ↓
  4. RLC*

    LW4, whether you opt to bring a gift or not, following up after the event with a handwritten thank-you note for your boss’s hospitality and expressing your enjoyment of the get-together would show your appreciation.

    Reply ↓
    1. tina turner*

      Here’s a test for you: Do you know the person’s taste enough to know what hosting gift they’d like? A bouquet is safe but even wine is tricky if you don’t know. Ask around, maybe? What I DO like is, if you, say, bake, you can bring cookies nicely wrapped. They can save them or put them out.

      Reply ↓
  5. TheBunny*

    LW#5

    Leave.

    I had a 6 year job, then a 5 year job, then an 8 month job.

    I thought it was a great fit when I accepted, I liked the people, the office, the work…but discovered AFTER the interview that my new boss was a micromanager the extent of which I’ve never seen.

    I gave it 6 months, essentially I decided to give it enough time where the “oh I’m learning this” internal dialogue kicked in and then decided it was time to leave. I don’t think you have that luxury as this job has taken over your whole life in a really negative way.

    I relate to the fear of picking badly. I definitely do as 8 months is a…blight…on my resume and I really need to make it much longer at my current job. But I found I was so relieved to not be at the job with the micromanager that this job is amazing in comparison.

    Reply ↓
    1. Bast*

      The 6 year job and the 5 year job show that you aren’t a “hopper.” If I saw that back when I was on the hiring team, I’d think that something just went wrong in that job (not necessarily your fault, but perhaps it just wasn’t a good fit) and it wouldn’t have deterred me from an otherwise good candidate. Now if it was 8 months here, 6 months there, 9 months here, unless you indicated that you were working through a temp agency, that would be a pattern I’d be more worried about.

      Reply ↓
      1. Bast*

        I neglected to add — there’s a lot of “Covid leeway” too. There was a lot of shuffling at companies going on in 2020 and 2021, with massive layoffs that were no one’s fault. Everything was a mess. I’d be inclined to ignore any sudden departures during that time.

        Reply ↓
        1. Bookworm*

          Yes on the covid thing! I was at a job for more than 10 years when I got laid off in March 2020 due to covid. I was out of work for 4 months, then got another job. That job lasted for less a year due to layoffs at THAT company. Most reasonable companies will be aware of the covid stuff and not penalize anyone for it.

          Reply ↓
        2. CV*

          Eventually, people are going to forget exactly when Covid was (or, in some cases, that it really was much of a thing at all.)

          Would it make sense to specifically note that you were laid off due to Covid on your résumé?

          Reply ↓
          1. H.C.*

            I don’t think a resume is the place for that unless there are a lot of short stints during that time frame; otherwise, that explanation is better suited for discussing at an interview.

            Reply ↓
      2. Miette*

        Excellent point. I would also add that after about 5 years, the 6-month long job I had in 2001 fell off my resume entirely. People won’t pay as much attention once it’s further in your rearview, as it were.

        Reply ↓
        1. On Fire*

          Yep. I had a 3-day job (which has never appeared on my resume; learned after I started that it was a bait-and-switch) followed by an 8-month job. But that was after 9 years at the previous job. And the job after the 8-month gig was 8+ years, followed by my current 10 years. I doubt I would even include the 8-month job now.

          Reply ↓
    2. Relentlessly Socratic*

      Yes, I had a 7-mo job after an 8-year job. The 7-mo job was followed by 2 yrs at the next company (I’m now freelancing). Covid and the Great Resignation, AMIRITE.

      For now I’m leaving the 7 month position on my resume, because the client experience is beneficial to landing new clients and is attractive in my current field. I am agnostic on removing it down the road. Of note, that’s my only short stint on a very solid work history. I guess I’ll make that decision down the road.

      LW, don’t worry about a couple of short stints. I think they are more normal than not at this point.

      Reply ↓
  6. Heidi*

    I would expand on the advice to LW4 and say don’t buy wine for someone unless you know they like wine. Obviously, there is no universal gift that everyone will like, but non-drinkers will not necessarily know how to handle wine before re-gifting (i.e., you can’t just keep it in your refrigerator or the trunk of your car).

    Reply ↓
      1. KateM*

        Sorry, what does common sense say about handling wine? I keep mine in a kitchen cupboard, I’m not sure if that is okay. (Not that I regift them, I just keep them there in offhand chance that I have a guest who wants to drink it and I remember having wine.)

        Reply ↓
        1. Emmy Noether*

          I think common sense would be to think about how wine is stored in the supermarket (on an open shelf like all the other shelf-stable things) and conclude that storing it in similar conditions, with the other shelf-stable things, is fine.

          (Supermarket storage is actually not ideal for wine. Wine is ideally stored in a cool cellar, laying down, not upright. But that is for collectors and wine aficionados. Storing supermarket wine the way it was stored in the supermarket is perfectly fine.)

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          1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

            It’s a question of time and closure, too. Corked wine is lain on its side in cool air like a cellar to age, so the air can interact with the wine itself via the corkage over months and years. The flavors change. Only green bottles (traditionally red wines) protect from sunlight’s UV.

            Storing a corked bottle upright in a cool cabinet is fine for a few months. Screw-cap bottles can be stored upright in a cabinet indefinitely; they’ll reduce instead of aging if aging is attempted.

            The common sense I see here is not to buy something perishable for someone who you don’t know (or suspect with cause) would enjoy it. Wine’s no different than chocolate or tickets to a concert or sporting event in that context.

            Reply ↓
          2. jasmine*

            there’s a lot of things at the grocery store that I can keep in my fridge or in my car. as a non-drinker, I didn’t know you had to be mindful with how alcohol is stored until this post

            Reply ↓
            1. Emmy Noether*

              You really don’t have to be more mindful than you’d be for most other shelf stable food. You don’t want to keep it in the car if it’s going to be boiling hot in there (like all other foodstuffs!), but otherwise why not. It would be fine in the fridge if you’re willing to sacrifice space for it.

              Don’t most foodstuffs say “store in a cool dry place”? Even my dried pasta and my peanut butter say that!

              Reply ↓
              1. sparkle emoji*

                Yeah, the amount of consumables you can indefinitely store in a car is short. A few days for something shelf stable will be fine as long as there’s no extreme temps I guess.

                Reply ↓
            2. Venus*

              The common sense comment was made because one doesn’t have to be mindful unless you spend hundreds of dollars on a bottle of wine and plan to store it for years. The rest of the world does whatever they want with it and it tastes just fine, and the only real damage one can do is to store it in the freezer or in a place so hot that it would explode, but that’s more of an issue with storing a glass bottle and not about the wine. I have had wine that didn’t taste good because it was stored in an area that became a greenhouse and was at 140F for weeks, but that’s unlikely to happen in a home. It’s the same with beer and other drinks, where if they are kept somewhere below freezing and 100F then they’re fine.

              Reply ↓
          3. Former Librarian of SHIELD*

            I was brought up in a teetotal family, and I don’t think my parents or grandparents ever even went into the alcohol aisles at the grocery store, so asking yourself how they store it there isn’t going to help. People who have never been drinkers will just straight up not know.

            Reply ↓
            1. amoeba*

              Huh, maybe that’s a US vs. Europe thing, because there’s no special section here you’d have to actively enter – if you’ve ever been to a supermarket, you know how they store their wine, it’s right there on the way to the checkout, you’d have to close your eyes to avoid it.

              Plus, as was already said – wine is honestly not hard to store. Not sure why the top comment says it can’t just be stored in the fridge because in my experience… yes, it absolutely can, and in the car is also only a problem if the car gets super hot or whatever. Otherwise, no problem there either.
              And worst comes to worst, it’s a two second Google search.

              Reply ↓
      2. Emmy Noether*

        Yeah I think this hand-wringing is a bit much. Wine is not that finicky. It will be ok in any kitchen cupboard, the basement, or really anywhere in your house that is between freezing and room temperature. I’ve kept bottles on a sunny windowsill in the summer and had them be fine. I sometimes keep opened bottles on the kitchen counter for cooking and they don’t turn. There’s a lot of hullaballoo about all aspects of wine, and some people have wine cellars that keep specific temperatures for specific bottles, but that doesn’t mean it’s actually necessary.

        Presumably it is not an investment-grade bottle of Romanée-Conti. In the 0.01% chance it turns to vinegar, just throw it out.

        That said, if you know or suspect someone doesn’t drink wine, obviously don’t give them wine.

        Reply ↓
        1. KateM*

          That said, if you know or suspect someone doesn’t drink wine, obviously don’t give them wine.

          Maybe it should be the other way around – unless you know or suspect someone does drink wine, don’t give it to them?

          Reply ↓
          1. Emmy Noether*

            Fair enough – alcohol elicits some strong opinions, so probably not a good gift if you have no sense of the person’s attitude at all.

            (Ditto for meat products and cut flowers).

            Reply ↓
            1. YetAnotherAnalyst*

              It’s a question of whether or not a bottle of wine is a good “default” gift for a generic person you know almost nothing about.

              Reply ↓
              1. Jennifer Strange*

                But there is no perfect “default” gift for a generic person you know almost nothing about. Literally every item has a risk of not being a good choice for one reason or another.

                Reply ↓
        2. Media Monkey*

          i feel like it’s an acceptable gift to take to someone’s house and i honestly have never heard so much hand wringing about gifting a bottle of wine as on this site. if you are having a party/ dinner/ some sort of evening event in your house, it seems unlikely that no one at all will have a glass of wine. a bottle of wine is 6 small glasses so hardly something that will be hard to finish, and most people can just regift if they don’t want it without storing under cellar conditions.

          Reply ↓
          1. Jessica*

            Of the people who don’t drink wine themselves, at least a significant proportion also would not serve it in their home for the same reasons. So having the guests just drink it up isn’t necessarily the solution.

            Reply ↓
          2. YetAnotherAnalyst*

            It’s going to vary by region and social group. About a third of American adults are teetotalers (myself and my spouse included). Within the group that drinks alcohol, wine seems to be a minority choice , as evidenced both by annual consumption of wine in the US and by my own difficulty in regifting the bottles I’m given. Part of the issue may be my family has a lot of migraine sufferers, and wine is a common trigger? But my personal experience is that wine, like fruitcake, is something that is given as a traditional gift but that most people don’t actually enjoy.

            Reply ↓
            1. YetAnotherAnalyst*

              Fascinatingly, nobody ever gives me beer, which seems to be a much more popular beverage for the people around me.

              Reply ↓
              1. Missa Brevis*

                I suspect it’s a class thing? Or at least a holdover of a class thing. Wine is (traditionally) the drink of the class that would have dinner parties, and is thus a dinner party gift, whereas beer is the drink of plebs in pubs and thus not appropriate. A bit silly to keep the rule even now, but some things just stick.

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            2. Seashell*

              Do you live in a very religious area? I would have zero problem regifting a bottle of wine, because most people I know do enjoy wine. My husband and I mainly drink red wine (not frequently at home, but sometimes if we have someone over for dinner), so there is a bottle of white wine someone brought that is just sitting in my basement.

              Reply ↓
              1. YetAnotherAnalyst*

                Not a particularly religious area, no. But looking at my state’s per capita wine consumption we average a little less than two bottles of wine per person per year, so there may just not be much of a wine culture here. We’ve got at least a dozen breweries within 15 miles of me, but only one small vineyard.

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            3. anotherfan*

              Yes, but isn’t the (potential) wine going as a hostess gift to a group of people who are at a party? If the hosts themselves don’t drink wine, I’d think they could open it for the rest of the guests and it won’t be in the way.

              And just a shoutout to the three people in the world, myself included, who actually like fruitcake!

              Reply ↓
              1. Nancy*

                Yes, everyone saying they don’t drink wine can just open the bottle there for people who want any. If it’s a strict religious household and they are inviting people ho don’t know that, just tell them ahead of time.

                I have a friend who doesn’t drink and she loves when people bring alcohol to parties because she then doesn’t have to try to figure out what to buy. Anything not opened is used next time.

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                1. Great Frogs of Literature*

                  It would be POSSIBLE for me to get rid of a bottle of wine. But my friends don’t drink enough that I can rely on them to finish a bottle if someone opens it, and then I have this partially open bottle of wine sitting around that I need to hold onto for months until I have wine-drinking friends over enough times, or need to find someone to offload it to.

                  It’s a nice gesture, but wine is as much work for me as a plant is for many other people, and I’m not getting any enjoyment out of it.

                2. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

                  Great Frogs, you absolutely don’t need to hold on to a partial bottle of wine, and it’s not going to keep for months once open anyway. Just dump it out.

                  Even if you did keep it, I really don’t see how “I have a bottle on my countertop / in my fridge” is the same sort of work as “I have a living plant I need to make sure to water enough but not too much, to have it get enough sunlight, and to keep safe from pets / pets safe from it”.

                2. Jackalope*

                  It’s me! We have found each other, the three worldwide fans of fruitcake! The internet is magical! (Also, it’s lovely to have other people who also appreciate this delicious food.)

              3. sparkle emoji*

                Exactly, this has always been how I’ve understood the “bring a bottle of wine to a party” thought. If no one in a group drinks, then ok bring sparkling cider, but in a decent sized group there will likely be some takers if the host wants to serve the wine to get rid of it.

                Reply ↓
            4. Emmy Noether*

              Definitely varies by group. I can only think of one or two people in my family/social group that is an adult and doesn’t drink wine. (That I know well enough to know if they drink – so out of maybe a hundred-ish people?). I don’t know anybody that drinks alcohol but no wine.

              I know a lot of French people though, so that tracks.

              Reply ↓
              1. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

                I know a few people who drink white or rose but not red – the tannins give them migraines – but yeah, it’s not common in my experience for people who drink alcohol but not wine. (And those people would be normal about a gift of red, and either serve it to guests or return it with an explanation.)

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                1. Missa Brevis*

                  I drink alcohol, but not wine, and it’s interesting – the time I was gifted wine by the company as a holiday thing really annoyed me, but being given a bottle as a host gift wouldn’t? I think it’s about the context, where I’d expect my employer to make more of an effort to find a gift that is actually pleasant to receive for employees, whereas a dinner guest is just following a social script for how to be polite at a party.

          3. HR Friend*

            THANK YOU. If you’re getting a bottle as a hostess gift, it’s prob like $20. If you don’t drink and can’t be arsed to serve it to those who do, toss it.

            Reply ↓
            3. B*

              The response to this offensive bottle of wine really is wild to me. Imagine if someone brought a chocolate cake and you don’t like chocolate. Ok? Let someone else eat it or throw it away. It’s just a way to show you spent some time trying to contribute something to the gathering.

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          4. Colette*

            The thing is, if you give someone something they have to regift, you’re giving them a chore. Presumably, that’s not what you’re going for, so you should try to give them something they would appreciate.

            Reply ↓
            1. Emmy Noether*

              Sure, but that’s an issue with all gifts to people one doesn’t know that well in general, not specific to wine.

              Reply ↓
            2. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

              I don’t see this obsession with regifting wine, rather than just dumping it. It was one suggestion people made. And obviously I’d rather give something they’d appreciate – but I also don’t want to be treated like guessing wrong occasionally is a horrible imposition on the receiver. Either you can use your words in the moment to explain that you don’t drink, or throw it out after the fact and accept that you may get wine again another time, but either way it’s a minute’s effort on your part.

              Reply ↓
              1. Colette*

                It’s not a huge deal – but wine is a gift that has a lot of pitfalls. A lot of people don’t drink (because of religion, addiction, or because they just don’t want to) and people who are into wine have strong preferences about what they like.

                (And even dumping wine down the sink is a chore you could be giving someone.)

                If you know your audience, wine could be a great gift! But it’s not a universally great gift.

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            3. Hyaline*

              Why do they “have to regift it”? There’s no law that says you can’t just toss it. Or that you can’t use the nice bottle of wine in place of the crappy cooking wine next time you make spaghetti sauce. Or that you can’t use it to bait your fruit fly trap. If you get a gift you don’t prefer, you don’t have to use it for its intended purpose or find someone who will; you’re inventing a “need” to regift it here.

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              1. Tree*

                Btw, very cheap Port(the kind with an ingredients list) is a fabulous way to bait fruit flies and fungus gnats. That’s how I disposed of gifted wine I didn’t want to drink.

                Reply ↓
                2. Missa Brevis*

                  And this is why I don’t comment from my phone

                  Fruit fly bait is generally a handy way to use up a fermented beverage that you don’t actually want to drink the rest of.

              2. YetAnotherAnalyst*

                This is very much a cultural thing! Never throwing out a gift can be as deeply ingrained as not showing up empty handed. Practically speaking, the giver is never going to know if you dumped it down the drain or sipped it in a leisurely bubble bath, but the idea of pouring the $20 somebody spent on you down the drain is… somewhat shocking. At that point, maybe just don’t bring a gift?

                As an illustration, my sister is at the intersection of a wine-gifting social group and a doesn’t-drink-wine social group, and has seven years’ worth of gifted wine stored away in her credenza – to the point that she’s no longer able to fit anything other than wine there. They don’t drink it, can’t regift it, and won’t dispose of it if it might still be good.

                Reply ↓
              3. Colette*

                Sure, you could use it in ways you’d use other wine, if you’re someone who uses wine. Or you could dump it down the drain. But, if those aren’t things you’d normally do, it’s something you now have to deal with.

                Again, if you’re someone who loves getting wine, it can be a great gift! But if you’re someone who loves giving wine as a default, you should know that some people will be less than thrilled, and they probably will thank you politely and put it on their “things I need to deal with” list.

                Reply ↓
            4. A Book about Metals*

              What’s the chore? Just keep it somewhere until you have a need to regift, or just throw it away if you don’t want to do that.

              Reply ↓
          5. Former Librarian of SHIELD*

            We have had MANY conversations in the past about the appropriateness of wine as a gift over the years here, and a lot of those threads became quite contentious.

            Some people can’t drink wine, like people with certain medical conditions or religious restrictions. Other people might be harmed by a gift of wine, like recovering alcoholics. Not every dinner party includes wine or other forms of alcohol. Not every industry includes alcoholic beverages at events. Whether or not to give someone a gift of alcohol is a “read the room” scenario. If you know that dinners in your industry frequently include wine, it’s probably fine. If you have any indications that the person you’ll be giving it to may not drink alcohol, maybe go with something else.

            Reply ↓
            1. Missa Brevis*

              People really want there to be concrete universal guidelines for what is a good gift and what isn’t, but really it comes down to considering what you know of the person you’re giving it to and working from there. There’s just no way around it.

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            2. amoeba*

              Yup – honestly, I feel like this discussion is *extremely* hypothetical, because in 99% percent of the cases I’m invited somewhere, I have a general idea whether they drink alcohol or not. Same goes for stuff like chocolates.

              Now, coming up with the perfect gift for a complete stranger might be an interesting theoretical discussion, but not really that likely to come up in reality!

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          6. Milena*

            Being contentious about someone’s religious/cultural beliefs and respectful that some people may not drink for health reasons (including past/current substance use and addiction) is considered hand-wringing now?

            Just fyi, just because you don’t think it’s rude, doesn’t change the fact that it is. As a person in recovery, if someone brought wine to my party, I wouldn’t care, but a lot of my friends who’ve struggled with addiction would be very offended or it could even cause instability in their recovery. Not everyone has a good relationship with alcohol and unless you know someone drinks or would welcome alcohol in their home, there’s truly no reason to provide them with unsolicited wine.

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        3. MK*

          Also, I would say it’s not the gift-giver’s responsibility if a gift goes bad. I agree with Alison about plants, and I would say a general rule is not to gift things that require work or special knowledge from the receiver. But wine is something most people know goes on to a shelf or into a cupboard.

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        1. Gifted Wine*

          I honestly don’t know if I am missing a in-group joke or if people are being serious. If someone gifts you wine, or you opened wine for guests and thee is leftovers, or any other reason you don’t want wine, just throw it out. How is that a chore that must be avoided at all costs?

          Reply ↓
            1. Myrin*

              I found myself in that situation from time to time but in all honesty, I’ve had to learn to get over it and just throw the damn thing out (which has the additional benefit of it getting easier the more you do it).

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            2. Allonge*

              But then when you invite people, you say ‘no gift please, not even a bottle of wine, it’s gift enough to see you’.

              Or, you know, don’t invite people who don’t know you enough not to bring you stuff you don’t need.

              Reply ↓
          2. Emmy Noether*

            I think there is one faction that believes all gifts are an imposition (we’ve had threads like this here before). There’s another that just doesn’t want to deal with alcohol ever.

            Both of these groups are in the minority in society at large, and won’t succeed in changing social and cultural customs anytime soon. They are being serious, though.

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          3. metadata minion*

            It isn’t a chore that must be avoided at all costs. It’s an annoyance, and one that can be avoided by checking to see whether your host drinks alcohol, just like I’d check whether they had any food allergies before bringing something edible. Something can be not the worst thing in the world and yet still worth taking a simple step to avoid.

            No gift is going to please everyone, so why not check to see whether your host actually wants/likes/can consume the thing you’re bringing?

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          4. Spooz*

            The problem is, it’s always a sodding bottle of wine. It’s never something I actually like. It’s not a massive imposition each individual time, but when it’s every single time (wine I don’t drink, dairy chocolates I can’t eat, a pot plant I don’t want in the house, some trinket or ornament when I have exactly zero ornaments in the entire house cuz dusting) you get to be a bit Bitch Eating Crackers about it.

            I don’t want to get all “microaggressions” about it, but it’s the accumulation of many small things to the point where you want to hulk out and scream, “AGAIN?!! WHEN DO I GET SOMETHING I ACTUALLY LIKE??!? JUST GET ME NOTHIIIIIIIINNNNGGGG!!!!!!!!!” at the poor innocent person who just wanted to be nice.

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          5. YetAnotherAnalyst*

            I think this ultimately comes down to two opposing viewpoints:
            A) a gift should be tailored to the tastes of the recipient; it would be better to not bring a gift than to bring a thoughtless gift.
            B) a hostess gift is an acknowledgement of (and reciprocity for) being invited; a tailored gift would be ideal, but it’s better to bring a generic gift than to show up emptyhanded.
            Norms for gift giving and reciprocity (e.g., do you bring cookies to your new neighbors?) can be extremely variable and extremely ingrained, and this comment section is global-ish, so it’s no surprise you’re going to get strong opinions one way or the other. Adding alcohol, which brings its own cultural baggage, just ups the ante.

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    2. Artemesia*

      It is even trickier with the boss who if he drinks wine, may routinely drink wine that is a lot better than what you can afford. I take wine to friends’ homes, but I never take wine to people who are very wealthy or I know are wine fanciers. They can’t regift a bottle they wouldn’t drink and so there it is.

      A lovely note. A small box of good chocolates. But the lovely note will be best.

      Reply ↓
      1. What one wealthy person does*

        I frequently regift things to people who do work for me or I’ll donate it (e.g. for a charity gift basket). If it’s something that some may think isn’t ‘high end’ I’ll ask if they’re interested and that I’m okay with a ‘no’. It’s amazing how many things can be given away this way.

        Wine is always okay with me. I appreciated Alison’s comment about plants which are not something I would regift because it feels like giving someone a puppy or kitten who hasn’t asked for one — it’s a living thing that will create work for the person who receives it.

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      3. amoeba*

        Yeah, a wine snob is certainly the scenario where I’d absolutely refuse to bring wine as a gift. But again, know your audience – I’m 100% certain my boss isn’t one (and while I’m sure he makes more than me, I don’t think it’s in the “he regularly drinks wine I could never afford” range!)

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    3. Spooz*

      I hate the “wine as default gift” thing. I am a bad recipient for most default gifts.

      – I do not drink any alcohol.
      – I cannot eat dairy, so much chocolates and biscuits are out.
      – I loathe houseplants.
      – I am at best neutral on cut flowers, but always leave them to rot before I get round to throwing them out.

      I truly do appreciate the thought, but all of these “gifts” are annoying to me. Yes, I can regift, but I tend to think that if you know so little about me, you probably shouldn’t be bringing me a gift. Even if it’s a “guest gift” because I’ve invited you over.

      The best gifts I could receive in that vein are:
      – You having a demonstrably nice time while you are here.
      – You thanking me afterwards.
      – You inviting me over in return, if appropriate.

      Reply ↓
      1. Brain the Brian*

        I can’t drink, but I don’t particularly mind getting wine as a gift. I just keep it around so I have something in the house if a friend wants a drink while visiting me.

        Reply ↓
      2. Emmy Noether*

        And I like receiving all of those! I mostly really prefer getting things that will be consumed – I’m losing the fight to live in an uncluttered home as it is, and I feel bad throwing away gifts. Wine is a perfect gift for me.

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      3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Same. I don’t want people to bring me more stuff just because I happened to invite them over, whether it’s permanent stuff or consumable stuff. I always tell people, please don’t bring anything, and it drives me BATTY when they don’t respect that.

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      4. Becky S*

        My brother drank himself to death last year. I don’t drink, but if someone gave me a bottle of wine I’d put it aside and regift it. ( recently I came very close to giving a bottle to friends then remembered it was the same bottle they had given me a few months ago – oops!!)

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      5. ThatOtherClare*

        I’m a non-drinker, but I have zero problems with wine because it has a good shelf life. Anyone who brings me wine is simply solving my problem of figuring out what would be a good wine to bring next time I visit a wine drinker. The only people who give me wine are the people who don’t know me well enough to be aware that it’s not an ideal gift. At least they tried. It’s the thought that counts as far as I’m concerned.

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      6. Spooz*

        I used to work in a field with lots of ostentatious public gift-based thanking after every project. I was getting gifts I couldn’t use every 6-8 weeks. Given the frequency, these were not “nice” bottles of wine or “nice” boxes of chocs. Think supermarket plonk and boxes of Celebrations. Not what I would choose to buy for someone I wanted to buy a gift for.

        Truly, I appreciate the desire to say thank you or well done, and accept that in our culture a gift is a seemingly simple way to do it. But I profoundly dislike what I see as an excessively materialistic focus in our culture and the passing around of “stuff” for the sheer sake of it. I work hard to reduce my family’s impact on the planet and to keep our lives simple. Most of the time, “nothing” is the best gift you can give me. Really.

        I especially struggle with people who can’t show up to someone’s house empty handed. I really do appreciate where it’s coming from and the good intentions, but I’ve planned a meal and drinks and my house already has all the bits and bobs it needs. I just don’t know what to do with another pot plant that will die if I plant it outside.

        I promise I am gracious about these things in the moment – but always feel like I’ve been handed a chore, not something that delights me.

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    4. Nancy*

      It’s perfectly fine to keep wine the kitchen, which is where most people will keep it. Guests aren’t bringing rare vintage bottles.

      At pretty much every gathering I’ve been to, any wine brought was opened and shared with guests that night, so no storage even needed.

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    5. Hyaline*

      Wow, this whole conversation is excessively hand-wringy. I don’t like plants and wouldn’t prefer one; if I got one as a gift I’d say thanks and find it a new home. I like wine, but I am picky; if I got a bottle I didn’t want I’d say thanks and find it a new home. If I got something I couldn’t find a new home for, I’d say thanks and throw it out (or, if appropriate, give it to thrift or the freecycle table at the recycling center). Giving a gift is not giving a blood-writ contract that the recipient MUST use and enjoy the gift. You will never have 100% success with any gift item; someone will always prefer Not That Thing. Do your best, consider the recipient, but when in doubt? Giving a gift is simply a kind gesture, don’t overthink it.

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    6. Venus*

      I think the easy solution is to bring food or drink that can be consumed during the visit. I would ask the host if I could bring anything in particular, so that she spends less to host us. That is the intention of a gift, as a kindness to the host, and in this case the greatest kindness would be for OP to offset the work and cost of having a number of work guests. In a way it’s almost a potluck for snacks if everyone were to bring their own favorites, and that would also save the host from having to shop for those.

      As a comment for drinks:
      I have a particular drink that I enjoy, and I’ve developed a habit of bringing one small bottle to gatherings so that I can enjoy what I prefer but also not leave anything unwanted for the host.

      Reply ↓
  7. Mid*

    For host gifts, I like to give cut flowers, with no lilies (very toxic to pets), in a vase. I get cheap vases from thrift stores and match the vase to the flowers, so I’m not worried about matching someone’s decor, but it still looks intentional. Then they don’t have to awkwardly get a vase for the flowers and cut them and put them into water, and it feels more thoughtful than plastic wrapped grocery store flowers. It’s not commitment like a live plant. It doesn’t unintentionally make someone uncomfortable like alcohol can. It’s not much effort or money, but still seems personalized.

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    1. Not Australian*

      This is also a useful tip for gifting to people in hospitals or care facilities: it enables the gifter to take responsibility for making sure the flowers survive – at least initially – and doesn’t rely on overburdened care staff running around looking for vases and filling them with water when they have quite enough to do already.

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      1. Green great dragon*

        I wouldn’t give a live plant to someone who is a plant lover either, unless you have reason to believe that specific plant is welcome. We’ve probably put a fair bit of thought into what plants we want, and have those ones already.

        Reply ↓
        1. MigraineMonth*

          I think there’s also the potential issue of various mites and blights spreading from to the new plant to the existing ones if you aren’t careful.

          Still, they’re likely to appreciate the gesture. We may be getting into “not everyone likes sandwiches” territory.

          Reply ↓
        1. Ruth*

          Was going to jump on this to say that one thing I found helpful was actually going to a florist’s shop right by the hospital. I was able to say “my uncle is hospitalized, I would like to give him flowers, do you know what the rules are?” and that way I didn’t have to try to navigate hospital bureaucracy. They totally did because I’d guess 25% of their business is people stopping by to get flowers for the hospital. And I was able to bring him some in a cheap vase they also provided.

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      3. Lisa*

        When my dad was in the hospital I got him one of the 3D pop-up paper bouquets. There’s a few companies that do them, I think I got FreshCut Paper but there’s also LovePop and others. He loved it, there was no smell, they require zero care or disposal, and when it was time to go home it folded down flat and tucked in a bag.

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    2. Sarah*

      This is where the bouquets in a box is an awesome idea, means they don’t have more clutter leftover (I don’t need another vase), they can just throw it all out once it’s died

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    3. Nebula*

      I’ve just moved, and my former flatmate came round for dinner the other day and brought flowers. That was when I realised that a vase is one of the many things I need to get for my new flat – didn’t even have a pint glass or anything to put them in. My guest, who is a very resourceful person, made me a vase out of an old oil bottle I had in my recycling bin! But yes, I hadn’t thought about bringing a vase with flowers before, I might do that myself in future.

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    4. Helvetica*

      I also love to give cut flowers! If I don’t know about the pet situation, and since I have a cat myself, I deliberately choose such that would be fine either way. In my experience, people are pleasantly surprised because flowers are not often given – but they do make a lovely gift.

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      1. Dolce Ryvita*

        As someone living in Central Europe, this is fascinating to me – flowers are the go-to gift in my home country, so it’s interesting to see that elsewhere, they are considered a special gesture. Also, I’ll definitely be stealing the thrifted vase idea, what a great way to make things easier for the recipient!

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        1. Clisby*

          Not just easier for the recipient – much cheaper for the giver. I’ve found really nice vases, wine glasses, etc. at thrift stores.

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        2. Helvetica*

          They are also very common in my Eastern European home country but somewhat less in the Western European country where I live now. I guess it is more country-specific; when I lived in Denmark, they were not standard because flowers were quite expensive.

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    6. Relentlessly Socratic*

      There’s no one size fits all here.

      Flowers need to be put somewhere, even in a vase, and handing them to me when you arrive is giving me a chore. Also, I LOVE FLOWERS. So does my cat, and so all plants/flowers are banned because I do not enjoy cleaning up how much my cat likes flowers–and more things are toxic than just lilies.

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    7. Annie2*

      I like to bring a case of sparkling water. There are of course people who don’t like it, but at a party with 10+ people, someone is going to crack a seltzer at some point.

      Reply ↓
      1. Mid*

        Oooh I’m a fiend for seltzer and sparkling water (like I have a grocery budget specifically for it), so I might have to borrow this idea!

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  8. Lizard years*

    After being in and recruiting for the tech startup layoff game of musical chairs that’s been going on the last few years, 2 years in one place seems an eternity. Bounce. You’ll be fine.

    Reply ↓
  9. SituationNormal*

    Are there really people who think two consecutive two year stints is problematic? I’ve only had three jobs in my entire 30+ career last longer than two years (before my current job my record was 3.5 years), and I’ve only voluntarily left two jobs over that entire span. Two full time jobs under 6 months each and I’d raise an eyebrow. Two in four years? I might be jealous. I doubt I’d even ask about it in an interview.

    Are there really still industries where people regularly go work somewhere for many years at a time?

    Reply ↓
    1. Mid*

      What industry are you in? I’m going to guess tech, healthcare, or maybe arts?

      Accounting, banking, and law don’t have the constant churn and burn like tech and the arts seem to. Maybe because of the access to confidential information and conflict of interest issues? It seems to be very industry dependent. The people I know who work in sales, marketing, the arts, tech and non-MD healthcare positions all seem to be constantly moving jobs. Some are constantly contracted instead of fully hired, but some seem to move companies every 1-2 years even after being hired on fully. The people I know in banking, finance, accounting, academia, and law all seem to be more likely to be in a position for 3+ years minimum before moving on, with less moving at higher levels.

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      1. College Career Counselor*

        Higher ed is definitely a longer-term field. I was asked about being a job-hopper when applying for positions after I left a job that I’d held for FIVE YEARS (which followed previous jobs of 11 and 8 years).

        TL;DR: Academia is weird, part 137.

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      2. Change Avoider*

        I’m a corporate accountant with 20+ years in the workforce and I’ve had two jobs (not counting gradual promotions within my department). The only reason I left my first company was because my entire location shutdown and I did not want to move across the country. Most of my former coworkers had been there forever and most of my new coworkers have been with the company forever. Some of us definitely like to stay put.

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      3. Bast*

        I’m in law, and can say early career it’s pretty common for people to move around. In fact, there are certain firms that are known as “training grounds” — they are so terrible that barely anyone stays long term, and it is expected that you start out there, get your experience, and leave. No one bats an eye. This is a common enough thing for both attorneys and paralegals.

        Beyond that, it may depend on what sector of law you are in. There are certain areas where people stay in the same firm for years and years, and others where hopping is more common. I have to say that in personal injury, it isn’t uncommon for an attorney or staff member to “hop around” every 2-5 years. For positions in the government, unless layoffs hit, it’s pretty common for folks to stay around until retirement, because the benefits are nice and the hours are steady. Covid, of course, changed the whole landscape. Now with WFH becoming a more common thing, butts-in-seats type firms are finding they are having a more difficult time finding staff, as more firms are offering hybrid options, which both staff and attorneys flock to.

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    2. learnedthehardway*

      There are some industries where it is still considered pretty short, but honestly 2 year stints 2 – 3 times in a row is not unusual now. Personally, I would explain that I am currently looking for a company where I can stay long term, and where I achieve career growth over the next 3-5 years. REALLY lean into the “I want a stable company with a good culture, that values its employees, recognizes their contributions with appropriate bonuses/commissions, and that is committed to diversity. I’m going to be really careful about my next move as I want to stay and grow over the long term.”

      That right there is going to lead the recruiter to understand that you were burned in one or 2 of the prior roles. They might probe further – in which case, it means they want to know the details and won’t hold them against you. Personally, I would want to know that you moved because you were short changed after delivering $22 million in sales and that the next company was hostile towards women. I would be telling the hiring manager that your moves were well explained and well justified and that I was satisfied you were looking for a stable, long term situation.

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    3. Irish Teacher.*

      Definitely. I’m a teacher and once one gets a permanent, pensionable job (in Ireland), it is common to stay in it until retirement. Generally, if you change jobs you lose your permanency and I know people who did move (because they had a partner living elsewhere or wanted to move closer to parents or something), then the government of the time made budget cuts and they ended up losing the new job and having difficulty getting another permanent job.

      I’ll be 7 years in my current job next month and have probably just about reached the point where I don’t feel newish. The majority of the staff have been there longer than me. The principal has been there, originally as a teacher, then deputy principal and now principal, since the early-to-mid 80s (and was a student there himself before that).

      In the early years, it would be common to have numerous subbing jobs or year long contracts though.

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      1. AcademiaNut*

        Academic here, and people tend to move more frequently early in their career with postdocs and other short term positions, but if they get a stable position, they tend to stay in it. Changing jobs frequently means changing cities, if not countries, and the hiring process tends to take over a year. Someone changing faculty or permanent staff level jobs every couple of years would be really unusual, and worrying.

        Government jobs can be very stable, with periodic internal promotions.

        Any job with very limited job opportunities in a given region is likely going to be longer term – if there are no other jobs in your field in commuting distance, changing jobs means changing fields or moving cities. I’m thinking medical staff at a regional hospital, a teacher in a town with a single school district, towns that are dominated by a single employer.

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        1. doreen*

          Government jobs can be very stable, with periodic internal promotions.

          Yes- I worked in the public sector for 33 years. I knew fewer than ten people in all that time who completely left the public sector before retirement. People got transferred or promoted within the same agency or government all the time, or moved between city/state/county governments when they could transfer pension time and of course, people retired. But the people who actually quit almost all moved out of state.

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    4. londonedit*

      At a more senior level, publishing doesn’t tend to have short stints either. Books take a long time to produce – if you’re at the level of commissioning, then your whole job is trying to build a successful list of titles, and that’s going to take a few years. For entry-level jobs, yes, you’d more usually stay somewhere for maybe 18 months to 2 years and then move up, but once you’re established then it is very usual to stay in one job for a good few years.

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    5. Media Monkey*

      there are. but 2 year stints would be totally normal in advertising, especially if you could see progression/ advancement in the consecutive jobs, you wouldn’t even ask why.

      Reply ↓
    6. RIP Pillowfort*

      I work mainly with engineers and once you get established (licensed, build up your skills, etc.) it’s more common to see less job hopping and longer employment stretches with the same firms. You also job hop early in your career to find suitable engineering firms to work at and adequate compensation. Not all of them have a good work environment and that’s a well understood reason to leave. It honestly depends on where they are in their career.

      Seeing someone at my age (40) with nothing but 2-year stints would be an orange flag. It’s something we’d ask questions about, but it could be something as banal as they’re moving a lot for a spouse’s job. But what I’ve seen quite often is that is how they keep from getting fired for lackluster performance or serious performance/culture issues.

      But where I work (govt. agency) people stay 10+years because we have a pension system. 10 years is minimum required to be vested for the pension and the disbursement is based on your final employment salary. So, you don’t see many people leave before 10 years unless they get an amazing job offer, move, or they’re on the verge of getting fired.

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    8. Generic Name*

      I recently interviewed someone with 20 years of experience. His resume was only stints of 18 months to 2 years. When I asked him about it, he used a weird cooking analogy about spices and flavors to try to say that his short stays were actually a positive. His current job, which wasn’t even in his resume, he had only been in for like 7 months. He couldn’t give me a good answer why he was already job hunting. Based on all that information and other stuff he said in the interview, I felt like if we hired him, either we’d end up having to fire him after a couple of years or he’d jump ship. So yeah, at least in my industry, a record of 1 and 2 year jobs and nothing longer is at least a yellow flag.

      Reply ↓
      1. Bast*

        With 20 years of experience and the longest job being 2 years… Yes, I’d be side-eyeing that. That’s many, many jobs where they jumped ship early. For someone early/mid career who has fairly steady employment at the same place for 5-7 years at a time and then one single job that didn’t last long? That’s not really concerning at all, and completely different than 20+ years of constant hopping around.

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    9. Nicosloanica*

      Very industry dependent. Some hiring managers are hiring for a job in which they’d be happy if the person stayed with them two years, as long as they did a great job. If that’s the kind of job you’re interviewing for, great, no problem. My industry isn’t like that so they would want someone who showed they can stick out a longer tenure and advance in the role. Most job seekers are likely to do what they’ve done in the past, after all.

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    10. Nebula*

      I think it’s fair to assume that if the LW is worrying about this then they are in one of the industries where this could potentially be seen as an issue.

      Reply ↓
    11. AngryOwl*

      This was also my reaction, as someone in tech. I don’t *want* to move around that much but startups go under/do layoffs, there’s a lot of toxicity in them, etc. I’d love to just be somewhere for a while. If nothing else, constantly changing health insurance is a huge pain.

      Reply ↓
      1. Excel Gardener*

        It’s totally doable to have a more stable career in tech, but you have to make some tradeoffs for it. My dad is a recently retired programmer who worked 5+ years at each of his jobs (at least in my lifetime). But the way he did it was he deliberately worked at more established (non-FAANG) tech companies so that he could have that stability and work-life balance. He probably got paid a bit less than he might have if he hopped between startups, and definitely didn’t work on the sexiest, most cutting edge projects, but he broadly stayed up-to-date on the field and had a good career.

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    12. Delta Delta*

      My former boss felt this way. We had an opportunity to hire a really strong candidate for a fairly demanding support role. Applicant had a handful of 2-3 year stints at different positions and former boss was absolutely scandalized by this. He completely overlooked that her responsibilities increased with each new position, and also that although she had different positions they were all within the same company (was doing different support work in different departments at a hospital). But in his eyes she was a job hopper and thus unworthy.

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    13. Turquoisecow*

      I think it depends a lot on the industry. Husband works in tech, was at a startup which was bought by a larger company and a lot of their new hires come from startups which either failed or were bought out in a couple of years. I don’t think they worry at all about short stints in new hires, especially if they worked at short-lived companies.

      I think it’s a piece of data you kind of take in context of the rest of the resume/interview information. Are these short jobs at established companies where people tend to stay longer, or are they at startups where people are more likely to hop around? Do their reference checks indicate they’re easy going or do you get hints that they’ve moved on due to personality conflicts? When you ask about the reasons for leaving, do they make sense as the person maybe hit a wall in terms of salary increases, or do you get the sense that they had some recurring conflicts with management?

      I don’t think anyone will look at a series of one or two year jobs and say “don’t hire this person,” without interviewing them or anything, but they might probe into it a bit more so you should be prepared to explain things in a reasonable manner. OP seems to have good reasons for leaving each job – especially the current one – so if they can explain that calmly and rationally I don’t think it’ll be an issue.

      (By calmly and rationally it would be something like “I realized I wasn’t going to advance in the company and chose to move on,” rather than “oh those assholes wouldn’t promote me because they’re a bunch of sexist jerks,” or getting overly emotional about being away from family or something, which I assume they know.)

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    14. Lisa*

      I have been with my current employer for 21 years and most of my coworkers also have fairly long tenure, but I would not consider two years to be short enough to be concerned about. If I saw a resume from someone mid-career and they had never stayed more than 2 years in any job I might question it, but that’s because there’s a pattern and even then I’d just ask for details, not just reject them just for that.

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    15. Helewise*

      Yes, for sure. I’m interviewing for a new position now and that would be disqualifying for me. A few two-year stints, sure, but I want to see some tenure with that many years in a career.

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    16. Nosy*

      My husband is in tech. His longest job stint has been 5 years and people treat it like it’s an eternity. Most of his jobs were 2-3 year stints.

      I work in higher ed. Most people tend to stay at least 5 years. A large percentage of people I’ve worked with have been at the institution for 10+ years, many are about to hit the 20 year mark. A 2 year stint might get some questions about why you didn’t stay very long and multiple 2 year stints would probably raise eyebrows.

      Reply ↓
    17. iglwif*

      There absolutely are. I worked at the same publishing-industry organization for 21 years, then at another one for 6 (though it looks like a series of shorter-term jobs due to M&As). That place laid me off and I now have a new job in the same industry at a place where several people have been around for 15-20 years.

      My spouse, in a completely different industry, has also worked for the same company for 20+ years. Many of his co-workers have been around for a similar amount of time.

      Reply ↓
  10. Bilateralrope*

    LW2: Seeing that you mention threats of lawsuits, followed by Sean disappearing, I have to wonder if he disappeared to dodge the lawsuits. Which should only concern you when it comes to three questions:

    – Do you have a way to contact Sean ?
    Whatever contact details you have might be abandoned as part of him disappearing.

    – What will you do if Gary finds out and wants to use the person giving you freelance work to locate Sean ?

    – What will you do if you confirm that Sean has dodged the lawsuit by disappearing, but Gary doesn’t know about your referral ?

    I’d send a thanks to Sean for the referral to whatever email address you have for him. Gary probably won’t find out about it.

    Then I’d assume that this isn’t about a lawsuit dodge unless I hear otherwise.

    Reply ↓
      1. Irish Teacher.*

        That was my assumption too, that Seán claimed some form of unfair dismissal or retaliation of something and sued.

        Reply ↓
      3. Hyaline*

        I had the same read–Sean made a lot of bluster about suing for wrongful termination and then (probably because he didn’t have a case) quietly slunk away and disappeared.

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  11. Flat White Walker*

    I wouldn’t even blink at someone moving on after 2 years.
    Personally my jobs lately have been 5yrs, 6mths, 1yr, 2yrs, and now likely 6mths again. That’s just the way of it in recent years.

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  12. Emmy Noether*

    #4 I was also raise to be completely unable to show up to a social function at someone’s house without a gift. The key here is to keep it inexpensive and low-key and kind of just symbolic.

    If you want, you can give something that can be shared with the guests right away (such as chocolates or biscuits) but doesn’t have to be (so you don’t mess up the host’s plans for food). That way if the boss feels awkward about it, it’s for the group!

    I also like giving fancy foodstuffs, such as fancy oil or salt, once I gave an unusual type of nuts that was in fancy packaging. But really, I think any of the classic host gifts will do, even those that may not please everyone – trying to find the universally appropriate gift is impossible.

    Reply ↓
    1. KateM*

      Ys, I think something that can be either shared right away or put away for later personal snacking (and that doesn’t require fridge/freezer room) would be the best.

      Reply ↓
    2. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      I read recently a suggestion that if you are being hosted in the evening, you could consider taking something for their breakfast.

      Reply ↓
      1. Nebula*

        To me that would feel a bit suggestive like I’m implying I’m going to stay the night. It’s a nice thought but potentially comes across as weird imo.

        Reply ↓
        1. Fliver*

          That is… a really weird interpretation. I think that most people – the vast majority – are very, very unlikely to think that. If I invite someone to dinner and they bring a basket of nice pastries from the good bakery for my breakfast the next day, there is no way I would ever think “they are expecting to be asked to sleep over”. It’s a thoughtful gift, that’s all.

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          1. Nebula*

            Cultural difference maybe, it’s just not a normal gift where I’m from. Suggestive was maybe the wrong word, but if someone came to mine for dinner and brought me breakfast things for the next day I’d find it odd, that’s all.

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      2. Spooz*

        But… what? A dozen eggs and a packet of bacon? I can’t quite figure out what would be nice but not demand eating (in case they have plans for breakfast or don’t like whatever you bring.)

        Reply ↓
        1. Emmy Noether*

          Yeah, I don’t know many breakfast foods that make good gifts. Pastries will be stale by the next morning. A packet of cereal and a carton of milk doesn’t scream “gift” to me. Maybe some breakfast muffins or other baked goods with a reasonable shelf life?

          If the giver has their own chickens, a carton of their eggs would be amazing, but that situation is rare.

          Possibly a bag of really nice coffee beans (but then you have to know the coffee making setup of the household, if any).

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          2. Silver Robin*

            my immediate thought was a nice jam for morning toast, but it is the only thing coming to mind…maybe high quality maple syrup?

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          3. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

            I make homemade jam, and will often bring a jar as a host gift. (It’s canned so it’s shelf-stable). I don’t have breakfast in mind, it’s just something we have on hand that doesn’t require work from the recipient or take up much space. (I’ll specifically say that I don’t need the jar back, just in case people feel obligated.)

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            1. 40 Years In the Hole*

              I’ve often brought “artisanal” jams, or honey, mustards, etc, nicely packaged. Or – if know their taste – a bag of nice roast coffee beans I’ve picked up on my travels; have received/appreciated same. Artisan/homemade/organic soaps are good options. For family I often bring local maple syrup, homemade spice rubs, and other fresh noshes.
              Know your audience otherwise keep it as neutral/inoffensive as possible. “It’s the thought (and social niceties) that counts.”

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        2. FashionablyEvil*

          I’ve done this–I’ve made (American) biscuit mix with a nice jar of jam or a fun coffee cake. (The biscuit mix can actually be tossed in the freezer if they don’t want to bake them immediately.)

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        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          Not because it implies staying the night. Because it has no relevance to the situation. I invited you to dinner and you brought me… syrup? What? Weird.

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          1. metadata minion*

            I would love syrup, but that’s because I…love maple syrup, and if you bring me a bottle of it it’s going to be because you know that. I agree that it’s a very random gift (though I can’t actually put my finger on *why* it’s different from a bottle of fancy olive oil, which seems like a much more typical guest gift to me).

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          3. Annie2*

            To be honest, I could see this if the context is – “we found this incredible maple syrup from the farm near us / when I was in Quebec last month, so I brought you a bottle!” It would be more weird if it was maple syrup from the grocery store that we all go to.

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      4. Boof*

        I would suggest something that could be consumed at the party – covers the bases if the host doesn’t care for it themselves I think
        Like desert or cookies or chocolates – judging by prior threads I think folks could shoot down any individual idea but basically something relatively inexpensive and consumable* is probably best!
        *I would consider flowers “consumable” as well in the sense that they get used up

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        1. Spooz*

          But… if I’m inviting you for dinner, I’ve already made a dessert. And side dishes. I’ve had people ask me the day before if they can bring anything and I’d already planned the meal, bought everything, and precooked most of it.

          So yes, shelf stable only.

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    3. RIP Pillowfort*

      Not super fancy but I sometimes buy locally made jams, salsas, or pickles to give out for things like this. We have a lot of farmer’s markets/stands so it’s not hard to find something nice.

      Reply ↓
      1. Emmy Noether*

        Locally made and/or from the farmer’s market counts as fancy! Bonus points for a cute label or homemade/small batch look.

        Reply ↓
    4. Slow Gin Lizz*

      I think bringing something for the actual event is the way to go here! That way it’s consumable, so you won’t be saddling the host with something they don’t want or won’t use, and if there’s any of it left when you’re leaving you can ask the host if they’d like to keep it. That way, they can again be relieved of the burden of keeping something they don’t want.

      NB: I find it stressful if I host an event and a friend brings food or drink that I know I won’t want and leaves it behind when they go. Therefore I’ve developed a habit when I’m a guest of asking if the host wants me to leave them some when I leave or not. I hope this isn’t considered rude, but I know as a host I don’t want or need all the stuff that people bring to share.

      Reply ↓
      1. Lisa*

        Something that can be consumed at the event is great if it isn’t super perishable so it doesn’t obligate the host to use it right then if it doesn’t fit with the rest of what’s being served or if it duplicates something the host already prepared.

        Reply ↓
  13. SPB*

    LW #5
    When the position requires relocation to a country you don’t even choose, I’m sure 2 years will look perfectly normal, because you’re living in a country you didn’t choose to live in. I think most prospective employers would agree that it shows adequate commitment.

    Reply ↓
  14. Burger Enthusiast*

    LW5: your reason for leaving is perfectly understandable, but keep in mind that you need to frame it in a way that sounds like there was some unpredictable outside factor that made your employer assign you to the foreign country. Simply stating that you were assigned to a developing country can inherently sound like badmouthing since it raises questions about the way the company functions (Did they even warn you this was a possibility before they accepted the job? Did they hide that fact from you? Do they make decisions without much planning and caring about their employees?). It’s like stating the fact that someone broke the law – no matter how respectfully you say it, you are, in fact, saying something negative. So maybe frame it as there was some outside business factor that made them do it, essentially make it sound like they had no choice (maybe that was the case, but you should say it even if it wasn’t). And follow by saying how much you appreciate what you’ve learned on that job.

    Reply ↓
    1. bamcheeks*

      “When I took the job, I was really excited about the prospect of living abroad, but in practice it has been much harder than I expected and what I’ve learned about myself is that I prefer…” is also a legit answer.

      Reply ↓
      2. UKDancer*

        Yes, I think most sensible people accept that living abroad is harder and more challenging. This can be the case regardless of where you are living. I think it’s fine to say “I was happy to try living abroad but I find it’s been hard and I am looking for a job nearer home.” A lot of people can relate to that. I’ve a friend from Colombia who says while she likes being in the UK in many ways (safety, crime rates) she really misses some things about home and finds living and working in English exhausting.

        I mean I lived and worked in Belgium which is comparable to the UK in terms of quality of life but I was still really glad to come home after a year because it’s hard work being abroad, working in another language and dealing with things just being different (not just big things but small things like the cornflakes tasting peculiar). It taught me that I actually prefer living in the UK because it’s what I’m used to.

        I don’t think it’s a developing country thing, I think it’s a being in a foreign country thing.

        Reply ↓
        1. The Prettiest Curse*

          Yeah, I found living in the US really difficult at times, even though there were plenty of things I liked about it and I don’t regret having done it.

          Even if moving between countries is very common in LW5’s field, people will still understand that not every country is ideal for everyone, work-wise. LW5, don’t make yourself any more miserable than you already are out of a misplaced sense of what you “should” be doing.

          Reply ↓
      3. Emmy Noether*

        It’s also fine to only want to live abroad for a limited time from the start, you don’t have to discover that while abroad.

        I’d probably like the experience of living in a lot of countries for under a year*. More than that, the list gets much shorter, and for living permanently there’s only a few.

        *not right now, as I have small children. But if I was unattached, sure!

        Reply ↓
        1. Lisa*

          Oh for sure! If my employer wanted to send me abroad for a month or two, I would jump at the chance for a long list of countries. If it was for a year or more I’d be much more selective about where I’d be okay with.

          Reply ↓
          1. UKDancer*

            Definitely. Anything for longer than about 1-2 months would be more challenging and I’d be very fussy where I went.

            I don’t mind travelling on business fairly often but I like coming back to my home in the place where it is because I like living there.

            Reply ↓
    2. Jenesis*

      I don’t think she even needs to bring up that it was “being in a foreign country” that’s the issue?

      “After working there for two years, I realized that the environmental conditions at the job site were actively harmful to my physical health. They could not relocate me to an alternative site, so I had to leave” sounds like a solid enough reason that doesn’t throw shade on her own (or her former employer’s) judgment.

      Reply ↓
  15. bamcheeks*

    LW2, I would thank Seán and think no more of it. This is a business arrangement: Seán’s employment with Gary didn’t work out, but he obviously still thinks highly of you and that’s fine. Even if Gary is also a personal friend, you 100% don’t have to “take a side” in a business conflict.
    Gary is actually being a really bad friend to you if he expects you to cut yourself off from potential business because of a conflict that he allowed to escalate in his business.

    Say thanks, establish a civil business relationship with Seán, and if Gary has feelings about it, tell him this is your business life, not your personal life, and set some clear boundaries there.

    Reply ↓
  16. Myrin*

    #1’s coworker’s reaction is seriously strange. If she were an owner or even just the boss, I could at least understand her attitude – it would be a really crappy attitude and a sign of a bad boss, but at least I could see the reason for it – but as it is, her stand here doesn’t make sense at all.

    “Her answer in short is me because I shouldn’t be able to make demands during my interview.”
    Okay, and why on earth not? Is it just because she herself wouldn’t ever dare do such a thing and jealous of OP and now has the urge to make OP feel small and upset? Madness!

    Reply ↓
    1. Thistle whistle*

      Sometimes perm employees don’t feel like contractors deserve as much. I was contracting with a large company on a fixed term basis and one of the perm employees was MAD that I got the same terms and conditions, even although it’s the UK law. She had had to fight to get her perm position and felt that contractors shouldn’t get the benefits package.

      Reply ↓
    2. Ellis Bell*

      I would definitely take issue with the word ‘demand’ and breezily say “Oh, it wasn’t! I was just checking we were on the same page in what we wanted.” I am sure the colleague agrees with that manager that if you dare interview for a job you should be willing to accept it, but it will be good for them to hear someone being choosy.

      Reply ↓
    3. lunchtime caller*

      In my experience yes, it is almost certainly because she would never have thought to do it or would have talked herself out of it in some way and now thinks it’s unfair that someone else did it because she feels like she wasn’t “allowed.”

      Reply ↓
      1. Wilbur*

        I wouldn’t rule out “I don’t think you’re valuable so you shouldn’t be able to do it.” Some people can’t see the value in people.

        Reply ↓
    4. Seashell*

      I agree. It seems really childish to pout over someone getting a better deal at work just because you didn’t bother to ask. Permanent employees also may have better benefits than a contractor, and they’re probably harder to get rid of, so #1 doesn’t necessarily have that much of a better deal than the co-worker.

      I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that this co-worker is going to be a problem or has other personal issues.

      Reply ↓
    5. Person from the Resume*

      I did wonder if it’s related to the dynamic between the permanent employee and the contractor, she feels the contractor should get a standard contract with no negotiation allowed. A contract comes from the different budget than payroll for employees. Is the contractor’s pay impacting other budget items? Or maybe the full time employee are stuck with fixed salaries and she’s having sour grapes about.

      Or possibly she’s a person who never negotiates because either she feels it is not right/just/fair or just can’t being herself to do it. And is thus jealous and wants no one else to do so.

      Her use of the word “demands during interview” rather than saying “negotiating the contract” or “negotiating salary” is a sign of how she’s outside of societal norms on this. And also blaming the LW instead of the company management is misdirected too since they agreed to it.

      If LW wants to continue to discuss this with her. “I didn’t make any demands. I negotiated my contract which is entirely normal and expected. This is a normal part of the hiring process.”

      But I’d let it go because she seems really kooky and holds strong feelings to be upset about it.

      Reply ↓
    6. Guacamole Bob*

      I think everyone is probably right and the coworker has strange ideas. It did occur to me, though, that it’s possible OP came across as cocky or otherwise had an attitude that grated on the colleague when explaining the conversation.

      Projecting the attitude that you know full well the organization needs you more than you need them and that you’re negotiating from a position of strength can rub people the wrong way, even if it’s true. If OP said “it’s important to me to be able to be home in time to help my children with homework so I negotiated this earlier schedule in the interview process,” then the colleague is super weird. If what OP said was more along the lines of “I know they’ll never get the llama grooming project launched on time without me, so I held out for above-market pay!” I can understand the reaction a little better.

      Again, I doubt this is what happened, but it’s interesting to think about some of these letters with different lenses to try to make sense of behavior that’s really weird on the surface.

      Reply ↓
      1. Observer*

        It did occur to me, though, that it’s possible OP came across as cocky or otherwise had an attitude that grated on the colleague when explaining the conversation.

        It’s possible. But it’s still a seriously weird take. If someone sounds like they are too full of themselves, you can say so although being SO upset that it’s clear for days after is still weird.

        Reply ↓
    7. learnedthehardway*

      Agreeing – coworker’s reaction is just plain weird. EVERYONE should be able to state what they need for a job to be one they would agree to take on.

      In fact, in my interviews, I directly ask candidates what matters to them so that I can help them and my hiring managers understand whether it makes sense to continue to talk. If someone tells me that they need to be remote and the job can only be hybrid, then we both know this is a non-starter and we save everyone a ton of time and energy. Same with compensation requirements, and a host of other things. That’s part of my whole job – ie. making sure that the logistics of the role work for the candidate as well as ensuring they are qualified. If there is something that I’m not confident that the company is committed to providing, I will suggest that the candidate explore the issue in the hiring manager interview. I don’t want the candidate to be hired and then find out that no, the company doesn’t really accommodate their childcare pickup schedule, even though they said they believed in work/life balance and flexibility.

      Coworker is out to lunch and/or is upset that they themselves didn’t advocate better for their own needs. That’s a stupid, short-sighted reaction, and reflects a lot of the “If I can’t have it, why should anyone else” thinking that holds everyone back.

      Reply ↓
    8. iglwif*

      It’s SO strange! I could understand the coworker being kind of jealous that OP managed to do this, and I could understand wanting to know how OP did it, but “you shouldn’t be able to” is a 100% entirely unreasonable stance to take, especially right out loud. And makes the coworker sound like some kind of union-buster, too.

      Reply ↓
    9. Required*

      OP here wanted to address as much in this thread as i can without crossing any lines.

      As far as my coworkers reasoning why I shouldn’t be able to they stated people should be grateful and some people can’t even get a job. I didn’t feel that was a good reasoning at all as they are not aware of my compensation (which is handled by my host company not the company she works for- I am the same cost to them as all other contract personnel on an hourly basis).

      I understand looking at it in as I could have came off cocky but I don’t feel that was the case. I only answered questions about what I told them managers during the hiring process which was not much other than that I intended to leave on time every day unless there is something absolutely pressing or I am holding up progress if I don’t stay later and that I would like compensation for any overtime. I was trying to be helpful in the event they take an opportunity to negotiate for a better schedule for themselves here or in a different company down the line.

      Lastly a small update the original coworker has since seemed to gotten over it but there are some lingering comments made towards me by other coworkers since regarding when I intend to leave and such.

      Reply ↓
  17. Harper the Other One*

    OP3 – my original degree was in music, which I really loved, and making it my work as well did eventually suck a lot of the joy out of it for me. But I did find that using variations of the same field kept it feeling fresh – so in my case, playing clarinet (my primary instrument) was work, and playing classical guitar was fun. If there’s a way you can create some sort of separation for yourself, it’s worth doing!

    I’d also encourage you to be rigorous about your departure time from work – set yourself a goal that you’ll leave within 15 minutes of your end time (barring a true emergency need).

    Reply ↓
    1. Anony*

      Just to add on to above.
      At one point in my life in the early 2000’s pottery was my passion. And as with any passion if you do it enough you have extras and accumulated finished projects. Fast forward to the 2010’s and with the recession and huge layoffs I was out of work. A friend and I decided to start our own pottery – lessons, shows – the works. Eventually my passion became work. A lot of work. It wasn’t a way to relax with projects to get involved in, it was stressful. This didn’t happen all at once, it crept up on you. We folded after about 18 months, and luckily both found jobs. It took several years before I could go back out to the barn and enjoy something that had always been so enjoyable before. So a word of warning – if you are really passionate about the banana pants – make sure to have a clear work/home split. Also be careful of ruining your wonderful passion hobby.

      Reply ↓
      1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        I’ve long lost track of how many carpenters, cabinetmakers, contractors, etc, have warned me the best way to ruin a hobby is to make it your business and livelihood. Agree 110% with Anony.

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    2. Jackalope*

      To further the idea of the goal mentioned, I’d say set a timer on your phone. Or two timers; one to go off about 15 min before you’re off work, the other 5 min before. (Obviously you can tweak the times as needed.) That way you can give yourself a warning to start finishing up what you’re working on and then a final “put all tools down and clean up” couple of minutes at the end. Maybe also plan something the first few days right after work so you have something to go to, so you’re less tempted to ignore the alarms.

      Reply ↓
  18. I should really pick a name*

    #1
    I don’t think you should talk to your coworker about this again.

    They’ve shown themselves to be extremely sensitive to this subject, and bringing it up again will increase the chance of drama, not reduce it.

    If drama occurs, stay calm and factual. And be prepared for the possibility that higher up’s won’t like the fact that you discussed your negotiations.

    Reply ↓
    2. Pastor Petty Labelle*

      She was talking about salary and working conditions, that’s protected under labor law. So the higher ups don’t get a say in whether or not OP speaks about it.

      Now I would not bring it up to coworker either because she does seem to be sensitive about trying to advocate for yourself.

      Reply ↓
      1. I should really pick a name*

        Regardless of legality, I think it’s fair to point out that it’s something that they might take issue with.

        Reply ↓
      2. MsM*

        I think the problem here is less the higher-ups and more that this specific coworker is unlikely to quit being weird about this, so OP might just want to leave it alone unless the coworker’s weird grudge starts getting in the way of OP being able to do their work.

        Reply ↓
    3. Donkey Option*

      Honestly, if the workers use this to create drama that means advocating for better working conditions for themselves (pay, leave, schedules,) then I think it is good drama. I think if the coworker brings it up again, the advice to give them tools to use this for their own negotiations is a good thing. Many workers, once they’ve accepted a deal, often think they have no power to improve their conditions. This can help them in that area and this is why it is protected to talk about things like income at work. The only way workers make change is with knowledge.

      Reply ↓
    4. Observer*

      And be prepared for the possibility that higher up’s won’t like the fact that you discussed your negotiations.

      Do note that in the US, it would probably be illegal for the employer to retaliate. Because even though the LW is technically a contractor, thus without protection, it’s highly possible that they are actually an employee, given how they describe their position.

      Reply ↓
    5. Unkempt Flatware*

      We as employees should not care one iota about higher ups not liking us discussing salary and benefits. And we should not be giving advice like this. It’s time to let these fake rules go down like the Dodo. And the comment above about them ‘taking issue’ with it even if not retaliating, well, a boss showing in any way that she does take issue with it is retaliating. Plain and simple.

      Reply ↓
    6. Required*

      Thank you that has been my approach when approached I only share my working hours which was all I discussed initially as well not compensation.

      Reply ↓
  19. Emmy Noether*

    As a fun tangent to the discussion of host gifts: what is the strangest host gift you have ever received or seen someone receive?

    We once got a large bag full of different cheeses from the supermarket (not a cheese plate ready to serve, just individually wrapped blocks of cheese). I think the idea was to serve it immediately? But we would have had to take the time to arrange it on a plate, plus we already had a full cheese board prepared. We ate a lot of cheese over the next few days, and froze some. Luckily, we do really like cheese, and there was gifted wine left over to go with it!

    Reply ↓
      1. MigraineMonth*

        During quarantine I wanted to bake a fancy mac & cheese to impress my parents (since I’m generally not a good cook). The recipe called for 1.5 oz of four different specialty cheeses. Fortunately there’s a specialty cheese shop near my apartment that did curbside pickup. It was more expensive than I expected, but hey, the cheese was super fancy and there were supply chain issues.

        I got home and discovered that instead of 1.5 oz of four cheeses, they had given me 1.5 LBS of each, meaning a total of 6 LBS of fancy specialty cheese.

        Reply ↓
      2. Emmy Noether*

        It’s not that we minded the cheese per se – but I was in the midst of greeting guests and taking coats and serving drinks and there was a moment of “what the fork do I do with this NOW? Are they going to be offended if I don’t serve it?”.

        Reply ↓
    4. RIP Pillowfort*

      I didn’t get this- my parents did.

      They got a bunch of frozen veal. Now you have to understand, this is farm country and the friends in question owned and raised cattle at the time. Two of the calves got out of the pasture and unfortunately got hurt to the point they had to be put down. My parents’ friends gave out frozen veal to anyone they came over to have dinner, drinks, or cards with for like a month.

      What’s even funnier is my dad was willing to come help in the middle of the night when this went down and came home with veal to start with. My mom was like “Fine. It’s a thank you for getting up in the middle of the night.” So, when they showed up on Friday night for cards with even more veal, my mother didn’t speak to her best friend (his wife) for like a week after that. She absolutely knew how much my mom hates cooking at all and to be fair I think her friend liked to cook even less.

      (For anyone worried- they were all really good friends even after this. It is a story they all told with much hilarity and fond remembrance)

      Reply ↓
      1. MsM*

        Sounds like the time the tomato plants took over our garden and we were sending people home with plastic tubs full of the things if they expressed even the slightest interest in eating tomatoes.

        Reply ↓
        1. Emmy Noether*

          My grandma recently gifted us the biggest zucchini (from her neighbors garden! It was a regift!) I have ever seen. It made four meals for the family.

          Reply ↓
        2. Venus*

          Someone at my work recently brought a bag full of small tomatoes to give away and was disappointed that they were still in the communal area at the end of the day. I suggested she give them to the food bank (ours takes fresh veggies), or post them on her local facebook group. I’m lucky because a former coworker lives near me and she loves tomatoes, and when I felt overwhelmed last week I sent her a text and she came over later that day to happily cart off all my unwanted tomatoes and she texts me every few days to tell me how much she enjoys them.

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      2. Festively Dressed Earl*

        My aunt taught in a rural area for decades. Her freezer was always full of “teacher gifts” of ground beef, pork, and venison from farmers and hunters; of course she also had a fridge full of literally farm-fresh eggs and produce. Frankly, I was and remain jealous.

        Reply ↓
    5. PhyllisB*

      My secret pal at church recently gifted me a tree.
      At first I was like??? but the card attached said it was in memory of my son. I thought it was a nice thing to do and I plan to pua memory stone at its base, but if we ever move…

      Reply ↓
    6. Festively Dressed Earl*

      I guess those cheese people never heard the rule that you should never give a host gift that requires the host to stop what they’re doing and deal with it – no cutting and arranging cheese, no finding a vase for fresh flowers, no avocados that will only be ripe for the next 15 minutes, no puppy to calm down while you’re trying to finish making dinner, no spontaneous airline tickets to Vienna that leave in the next 2 hours, that kind of thing.

      Reply ↓
      1. Daphne*

        If someone gave me spontaneous airline tickets to Vienna that leave in the next two hours, y’all would be having your own little dinner party without me. Turn out the lights and lock the door when you leave.

        Reply ↓
    7. Juicebox Hero*

      Not a hostess gift but rather a birthday gift…

      For my 18th birthday my alcoholic uncle gave me 4 cans of Busch Lite beer, with the plastic six pack ring still on them. I thanked him and stuck them in the fridge and my mother and I had a good giggle about it after he left.

      Two months later there was a death in the family so everyone ended up at our house the way people do. My uncle found the beers in the fridge and drank them himself.

      Reply ↓
  20. Nysee*

    LW1 – Avoid this coworker like the plague. You gave her too much information in the beginning, unfortunately.

    I know this type; anyone who she perceives as having ‘more’ than she does goes right into her crosshairs. I’ll bet she whines about how hard her job is, how no one appreciates her, etc. Yet, when solutions are offered, she has a million reasons why she can’t implement them.

    Reply ↓
    1. HigherEd Boundaries*

      LW 1 situation is very similar to one I experienced at my first job and with my counterpart. I thought of negotiating relocation because I was moving across the country for the job. They did not negotiate and were moving within the organization to their new position.

      We worked together for three years, and they mentioned it directly to me at least twice a year, and I have no idea how many times to our supervisor. It was further exacerbated by other issues (work performance and performance-based raises). We also worked for the state, so I would know every time the state salary database updated after our annual reviews because he would start complaining about our compensation being different.

      Reply ↓
  21. DJ Abbott*

    #5, it sounds like you internalized the same toxic idea I did growing up – that you are supposed to know ahead of time if something will work out and be embarrassed if it doesn’t.
    That’s not true at all! In the world of non-toxic behaviors, you do your best to determine the best choice and if it doesn’t work out, there’s no need to be embarrassed because you did your best.
    There’s no need for you to be embarrassed about your old job. Your employers lied and mistreated you. That’s on them, not you.
    Please take good care of your mental and emotional health as well as physical. Get a less demanding job where you can stay with your family. Get some rest and don’t worry about what other people think. Get a job that’s right for you at this point in your life.

    Reply ↓
    1. Silver Robin*

      Along those lines, I remember seeing someone a while back make the distinction between “choice” and “decision”. Something like: a choice is not a commitment, a decision is. One can choose to go to a party, take a job, try a new hobby. Then, once in it, a decision can happen about whether to commit. The party, job, and hobby can all be abandoned if it turns out they suck. Making a decision (commitment) before trying the thing is absurd because it is unlikely a person has all the info, and treating each choice as a decision increases the stakes (and thus stress) unnecessarily.

      This is also a bit of semantics, people use these words interchangeably all the time, but it was an interesting distinction that I keep coming back to.

      Reply ↓
    2. you are supposed to know ahead of time if something will work out and be embarrassed if it doesn’t.*

      I wish I could upvote this. I wish you posted earlier. since this comment would be closer to the “top.”

      This applies to SO MANY things I see posted here.

      Reply ↓
    3. Cyndi*

      that you are supposed to know ahead of time if something will work out and be embarrassed if it doesn’t

      Oh gosh, this is absolutely a thought pattern I have that I’ve never seen articulated before, thank you for calling it out.

      Reply ↓
      1. ampersand*

        Same. There’s this pervasive idea that if you do your due diligence when job hunting and interviewing, then you’ll obviously and correctly determine if a place is good to work or not. But when bad managers don’t know they’re bad, or people are so embroiled in dysfunction that they don’t see it anymore, or a company is desperate to hire and interviewers don’t tell the whole truth, you can ask all the right questions in the world during an interview and not get accurate answers. It’s really helpful to be reminded of this.

        Reply ↓
    4. Daphne*

      Even with the letter number at the outset, it wasn’t until the 3rd sentence that I realized this was about work and not hostess gifts.

      Reply ↓
    5. MigraineMonth*

      It would save us a lot of time if companies would just tell you from the outset “By the way, we’re horribly sexist and will mistreat you.” They tend not to do that, though. It’s a *really good thing* that you figured it out and got out of your previous job. Now that you know your current organization is also horribly sexist and mistreating you, don’t hesitate to get out.

      There are better workplaces out there, and you will find one if you leave before this place destroys your physical & mental health.

      Reply ↓
  22. A Book about Metals*

    #2 – you said the work is a godsend and is your only stream of income – yes you should thank Sean immediately! And if you do a great job with his referral, maybe he brings you more .

    Reply ↓
  23. Nonprofit writer*

    LW2, one of the benefits of freelancing is that you don’t need to get sucked into other people’s work drama. Absolutely thank Sean without delay! It’s not a matter of “midwestern polite” (although of course it’s good to thank people when they do you a favor), it’s good business sense. Literally all the work I do is through referrals. Thanks & appreciation are a core part of my communications with my network. If Sean has truly been problematic with your friend, definitely keep a polite distance after the initial thanks (see above about not getting sucked in), but a thank you is a must here.

    Reply ↓
  24. theothermadeline*

    To our banana pants maker – Alison’s advice is spot on! I grew up loving theater, in college I studied theater management, I started working professionally in theater when I was 16, I worked in live arts and performance my whole career, went to grad school for theater management and…halfway through COVID hit, and theater didn’t become any easier or better paying but DID become a lot less fun. I was working full time as a producer as part of my program, and the program itself burnt me out. Thankfully I was in a dual degree program and also got an MBA. Now I’m working in a tertiary field where I can support theaters but also other nonprofit orgs of all kinds, really diversified my hobbies and friend groups, and started to enjoy life as a patron and not a practitioner. It’s been a few years and I could now see myself going back into theater for the right job, but I also have a much clearer picture of the life I would want to be able to lead in order for a job to be the right job for me

    Reply ↓
  25. Chairman of the Bored*

    In case #4 my approach has been to bring a gift and give it to the boss’s partner if they are also hosting the dinner and generally available.

    This accomplishes a few things:
    -Short-circuits the “gifts flowing upwards” concern
    -Creates a chance to thank the partner for their contributions to the event, even if it’s just putting up with the disruption and hassle of having a bunch of co-workers over for the evening
    -Establishes me as the boss’s partner’s favorite guest, especially if everybody else is ignoring them or treating them like “the help”

    This approach isn’t universally applicable, but the times I’ve done it it has been received very well.

    Reply ↓
  26. HonorBox*

    LW1 – I agree that going back to your coworker with a genuine offer of help for them to advocate for themself is great. Nothing in your letter made me think you’d done something wrong, let alone “off” in any way. In my present role, I have more PTO than what the organization typically gives, as I negotiated to be brought in with my professional experience factored in, rather than starting as a new hire. My coworker did the same. Our boss and HR were both totally OK with the request. Not advocating for PTO, additional compensation, or other things that are important to you is odder than doing it, I think.

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    1. Momma Bear*

      A lot of people, women in particular, do not negotiate. I have a friend who is a hiring manager and he’s said that sometimes he’s had to advocate for applicants because they lowballed themselves so badly. Corporate will be happy to get someone more cheaply if that’s all they asked for. I think LW’s coworker is really upset with themselves for not trying/or knowing they could try to ask for more.

      Reply ↓
    2. Slow Gin Lizz*

      I was thinking while reading the response to this letter, “Heck, just tell CW about AAM!” But of course that would depend entirely on the relationship LW has with CW.

      Reply ↓
  27. Mary*

    Four number 4 my go to now is olive oil. Some bottles are pretty nice looking so it feels gift-y, nobody expects to open it right then, almost everybody uses it for something, no issues with running into someone in recovery, rare for people to avoid it for health reasons.

    Reply ↓
    1. YetAnotherAnalyst*

      Ooh, that’s a good idea. There’s definitely no one-size-fits-all gift out there, but that’s a thoughtful choice for when you don’t really know much about the recipient.

      Reply ↓
  28. WellRed*

    If I’m hosting no need to bring me a gift. That said I would be happy with any and all of the suggestions made (even the ones I can’t use) because that’s what you do!

    Reply ↓
    1. Peanut Hamper*

      Yes, exactly. Part of being a good host is graciousness, and that includes being happy at any gift you receive, whether or not you like it.

      Reply ↓
    2. UKDancer*

      Yes. I don’t think a hostess gift is designed to be the best thing ever and a thing that absolutely suits the recipient’s needs. It’s a token gift to say thank you for hospitality. So it may not be what you want (and I always hate it when people bring me house plants because I kill them) but I always say thanks and am gracious.

      I mean I think it’s fine not to be overwhelmed with rapture or the gift not to be perfect. Just accept it and then do something with it later.

      Reply ↓
    3. YetAnotherAnalyst*

      I don’t think anyone’s suggesting being ungracious at the point of receiving the gift.
      I do think there’s room to say a given social norm is potentially problematic and maybe it’s worth looking for an alternative.

      Reply ↓
      1. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

        I really don’t think “Thank you, but I can’t use this because (reasons)” is ungracious. Obviously saying “What am I supposed to do with this, I can’t use it!” would be, but there are polite ways to decline a gift. If I get cut flowers that include lilies I’d say something like “Thank you, but lilies are deadly for cats, so I can’t have them in my house” and then either take the offending flowers out or discard the entire bunch, depending on the details. I would not for a moment think that Nobody Should Give Flowers Ever because of my individual situation. (And I haven’t looked up the numbers, but I suspect the number of people who own cats and the number who avoid alcohol are probably comparable to within a factor of 2 or so.)

        Reply ↓
        1. Ellis Bell*

          I think 99 per cent of the time, you can mostly rely on the graciousness of a host to just appreciate the thought. Sometimes people do have severe restrictions which won’t allow them to accept things (religions that forbid alcohol in the house, or when there’s a deadly nut allergy or serious anaphylaxis. I know one celiac household that won’t let you bring any wheat over the threshold), but in those instances they usually know to forwarn people.

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  29. ecnaseener*

    LW2, Sean did not “nearly make your friend homeless.” Your friend took on the inherent risk of starting a business, hired the wrong person (whether because he did a bad job hiring or just had bad luck), and then kept him on way too long. On Sean’s part, he didn’t embezzle from Gary – he took a job and did poorly at it. Gary’s rent was not Sean’s responsibility. You don’t need to be twisting yourself up in knots about being polite to someone who ~betrayed~ your friend, because he didn’t.

    Reply ↓
    1. bamcheeks*

      This letter reminded me a lot of “Our entire nonprofit is in jeopardy because an ex-employee didn’t check the mail”. Yeah, that one employee screwed up and should have done their job, but even a small organisation needs to have enough resilience that one person can’t tank it by incompetence.

      Reply ↓
      1. Ellis Bell*

        Yeah, I see OP’s update that Sean was given some options or shares in the company… it really sounds like Gary wanted to turn a hired employee into a partner in the hope of having someone else to bear the responsibility, but that never works. All Gary managed to achieve by this was to make it more difficult than it should have been to fire Sean. These are simply the consequences of Gary’s decisions!

        Reply ↓
  30. MistOrMister*

    Seconding not giving someone a plant unless you know for sure they want it!! And if you do, give something that is virtually indestructible! Someone recently gave me a flowering plant that I did not want and now I am stuck with this stupid thing that is supposed to be easy to care for but has started wilting even though I am following the care instructions. So now I have to watch a plant I didn’t want on the first place slowly die for reasons I can’t figure out. I love plants so this is very upsetting. So, yeah…..don’t give a plant unless you know the person wants that particular kind.

    Reply ↓
    1. Hyaline*

      You’re not stuck with it! Throw it out! Compost it! Presuming it’s not invasive, “set it free” and see if it can make it outside!

      Reply ↓
  31. colorguard*

    LW3: Ooh, this was me about 15 years ago and I ended up in a very rough patch because of it. Seconding Alison’s advice because that ended up being exactly what I needed to solve for the issue. (I’m also somewhat neurodivergent.) Initially, I picked group fitness classes because I’d been wanting to improve my fitness, and that option made me put things on my calendar that my brain said “Can’t miss, need to leave now,” but that logic works for almost anything that’s scheduled. And even if you find that’s what works, it might not be what you always need. After a few years, I’d both internalized “keep making banana pants contained to scheduled banana pants hours” and developed enough countervailing outside (different) interests that I don’t need formal scheduled stuff anymore.

    Reply ↓
  32. Sneaky Squirrel*

    #3 – I envy you for finding the job you love. I’m not sure that even if I ever found a job that matched my hobbies exactly, that I would appreciate doing it for work 8 hours on command. But while you may be enjoying the work, you may also be inadvertently signaling to your bosses that it’s okay to keep giving you tasks and expecting you to work extra hours because you’ll stay late to get it done; or if you have any staff reporting to you, you may be modeling to them that they need to work extra to get ahead. I would suggest that you draw a strict line in the sand for yourself about when to stop the work part of your day and try to stick to it. If you want to continue making banana pants after work, do so, but switch to personal projects!

    Reply ↓
  33. R*

    #4: You could bring some kind of cookie tray or spread or something meant to be shared by all. That way you’re not showing up empty handed and if others there don’t bring a gift it’s less likely to cause anyone who didn’t to second guess their decision not to.

    Reply ↓
  34. M2*

    #5- leave! But make sure you do due diligence for the next role and try and stay a minimum 3 years.

    Are you in INGOs or development by chance? I worked in humanitarian/ emergency response field for a decade and if you’re in them at any time you can be moved to a “developing” country or war zone. I also wonder because you said you brought in $22 million. For most international non-profits especially if you’re in the fundraising or programs side that is great but wouldn’t always receive a promotion. It would be the equivalent of doing your job. One year I ended up getting multiple programs almost $100 million and recognition for the type of programs and only then (after working there 2 years and basically working 24/7) was I promoted to CD. I had been Director of Programs or equivalent and that was what was considered just doing your job.

    Maybe this isn’t the field but if it is or if it’s close you might want to think about pivoting. Once I had kids I realized even HQ roles have you going to war zones occasionally. If a particular program doesn’t have someone managing it and it’s an important program you can be sent (even as a VP) to that country until a manager is sent.

    I also don’t think HQ staff should be hired unless they have years of experience in a developing country or conflict situation. You just don’t get the same understanding have been living or working in the US, Europe, etc. So could this be what is happening? Do you not have experience in developing countries and they want you having that experience? Everyone wanted to be based in main European or US cities or cities with great benefits but honestly the best people were always the ones who had actual real experience in multiple countries. I met someone who only ever worked in NY or Geneva and they were always the most arrogant and out of touch.

    Do you get benefits for being in that country? Do they give you R&R? Hardship pay? Per diem? If you get that then save that money and take those vacations and then use it if you leave so you have time to switch roles. Most times when you’re in places like this you get extra benefits usually because it’s more difficult. Have you met people there? Try to reach out to the expat communities you decide to stay and make friends.

    Really think about what you want in 5,10 years and what you need to get there. When I pivoted I had to take a step down, so understand that can be the norm.

    Reply ↓
    1. Delta Delta*

      It’s kind of a wider business thing. If someone needs a service and a referral is made, it’s pretty common for the other person to thank the referrer. I’m an attorney and we all thank one another for referrals. The same ends up being true in adjunct professions – I’ve referred people to real estate agents, accountants, chiropractors, whatever. And it’s pretty common for the person on the other end to follow up with a quick thank you for the referral. It helps them remember me in the future, too.

      Reply ↓
  36. 15 Pieces of Flair*

    LW5 – When you’re interviewing for the next position (which should be ASAP), focus more on accomplishments and what’s drawn you to this specific role. Assuming you’re still employed while searching you can always pretend that you’re only applying to this specific company because it’s a great opportunity. “Not actively searching”, even if it isn’t true, tends to be the best negotiation strategy for anyone who isn’t likely to receive multiple competitive offers.

    I voluntarily left my last job after 6 months because turnover left me overworked and trapped in a narrowly focused role. While I anticipated the short stint to be a barrier, especially in the employer’s market in tech in January 2023, I focused on positions that required a unique combination of skills and industry expertise and primarily applied through referrals. In interviews, I gave a brief explanation of the former job (hired with different expectations, lots of turnover) and then pivoted to talk about accomplishments.

    Within 6 weeks I had multiple offers. The role I chose came with a 24% increase in total comp compared to my last job (which I had accepted for the money) and an increase of two career levels despite being a much larger company.

    I’ve never stayed at a single employer more than 3 years, only have 10 years of experience in tech (second career), and am not a developer or salesperson. Finding roles that need my specific skills, articulating my value, quantifying achievements, and always negotiating enabled me to land a 250k+ job at a Fortune 500 company. My experience is definitely not typical, but most people could earn significantly more if they approached their job as a business partnership.

    Reply ↓
  37. Caramel & Cheddar*

    RE: two jobs that were two years each in length: this wouldn’t ping me at all, though I work in non-profits and people move around a lot. Especially for staff earlier in their careers, I always interpret it as one year to learn the job, and one year to realise you want to move on for whatever reason. I honestly never expected most of my staff to stay longer than two years when I was a middle manager.

    Reply ↓
  38. Former Retail Lifer*

    OP#5, I have 20 years’ worth of jobs that were 2-2.5 years long. I’ve been at my current job for 8 years and counting, but 2 years is long in some fields (I’ve worked in retail management and property management). If you have a solid reason for leaving and can communicate that to the interviewer, I wouldn’t worry about it.

    Reply ↓
  39. Somewhere in Texas*

    Alison’s train of thought on #3 made me think of something…

    When you keep doing the same thing over and over again, you are wearing in those grooves. Depending on the surface, you will get to a breaking point. Much like water over rocks, it makes a beautiful river until it breaks down to rocks OR you feel like there is never any other way to flow. Having multiple pathways for that passion (water) to run will create more beautiful rivers/gorges and preserve them longer.

    Reply ↓
  40. kiki*

    Letter 1: It’s misdirected, but I’ve seen this reaction a lot to hearing that a new hire has negotiated better conditions/pay/etc. than existing employees. It’s not the new hire’s fault they negotiated well. The existing employees need to take issue with leadership for being willing to treat new hires much more kindly than long term employees.

    Reply ↓
    1. Required*

      Op here

      This is how I took it as well. I could see it being frustrating but its destructive thinking as a whole to just simply be mad at the coworker and I feel its part of the reason for the large pay discrepancy between C suite and regular employees. I think it also contributes to the need to change jobs often by not advocating for oneself during raises and new employment discussions.

      Reply ↓
  41. Crencestre*

    LW2: What stands out to me in the whole Gary/Sean dispute is how long Gary let this go on before taking action! He had to take a second job to pay his rent because an employee was failing miserably and costing the company a fortune?! He should never have let it get even close to that point! Sean was undoubtedly at fault for his own failings, but Gary was not fulfilling his own responsibilities either.

    Managers gotta manage, even when that means setting firm deadlines for projects, putting employees on PIPs and yes, ultimately firing them if they don’t perform the jobs they’re being paid to do. Only a sadist actually ENJOYS reprimanding or firing people, but occasionally doing so comes with managerial territory.

    Reply ↓
  42. Observer*

    #4 Shortish jobs

    The CEO even told me he would fire me if I got pregnant, claiming that mothers should stay home.

    If your last job was in the US, this is flatly illegal and you may still be in the window to file with the EEOC. Pregnancy is illegal in the US. And also, this is explicitly threatening you based on your gender. Which also means that it’s going to be a lot easier to pin all of the other stuff on your gender.

    Reply ↓
  43. ILoveLlamas*

    OP#1, this is a her problem, not a you problem. I recently discovered after 2+ years at my current role, that I was the only person in my department that had negotiated more vacation time (thanks, Alison!). I have more vacation than someone who has been here for 5 years. My colleagues are envious, and even my Grandboss (high level VP) said he admired my ability to ask for it. He regrets he didn’t ask for more vacation time because he second-guessed himself and thought it might reflect on his work ethic. He didn’t mean this in a negative way towards me. We were laughing that I out-negotiated him. Be proud that you stood up for yourself!

    Reply ↓
    1. Required*

      Thank you, negotiating can definitely be daunting but I am glad I did. Congratulations on your successful negotiations as well.

      Reply ↓
  44. Saturday*

    Regarding LW#2, Gary would be unfair to interpret contact with Sean as a betrayal. These are business relationships. Being friends with Gary shouldn’t mean that you have to be rude/dismissive of someone who did something helpful for you.

    Reply ↓
  45. LizB*

    Alison’s answer to #3, particularly the note about relaxation vs other activities, made me think about a concept I learned from the podcast Before Breakfast by Laura Vanderkam: effortful fun. Some kinds of fun are more passive (watching TV, scrolling social media), while others are more active/effortful (going for a hike, doing a crossword puzzle). If we get home from work every day and start doing a passive fun activity, it can be hard to then convince ourselves to then switch to an effortful fun activity, and we end up spending all our evenings on passive fun. If, instead, we choose to do the effortful fun first, we have a much better chance of getting in both some active and some passive fun. I think a balance of both types of fun is really important to avoid burnout. This might be a helpful concept for the LW to take into account as they figure out how they want to spend their time.

    Reply ↓
  46. MakingBiscuits*

    The “two years at a job” thing isn’t an issue in many areas, as Allison noted. In IT? That is not just acceptable, but in many cases is the norm. I’ve hired technologists who have (quite literally) had 7 or 8 two-year stints in a row. Didn’t bat an eye. They worked out fine. Some left after another 2 years, which is fine too.

    Just depends on the industry.

    Reply ↓
    1. Jennifer*

      Yup! I have only had a few 2 year stints and ever other job has been less than two years (with a number being under a year). I work as a software developer, have been working for 14 years, have not had an issue finding a job, even in very challenging markets. OP, if you are in software… please do not be concerned.

      Reply ↓
  47. CubeFarmer*

    LW#2: I recently referred a colleague for an adjunct gig that I know he’s spent years pining for. I told him I referred him.

    He got the role and by his own account was thrilled at the chance. Did he, however, at any time say, “Hey, thanks CubeFarmer for helping me get this position that I’ve wanted to do for a long, long time!”? Readers, he did not. I’m glad I made a successful match, but it’s not cool that he forgot that I was behind it.

    Reply ↓
  48. Festively Dressed Earl*

    LW #1, your coworker says she’s mad at you but she’s really mad at the situation – being socialized not to negotiate and to think that businesses are doing you a favor by hiring you. When she’s had some time to process, she’ll come around. And if she does spread it around that you successfully advocated for yourself, be prepared to give a few pointers or to point people to AAM for tips.

    LW #4, host gift is good and appropriate, don’t spend more than $30 and don’t overthink it. The main rule with host gifts is not to give anything that will require the host to drop everything and deal with it right then – no flowers to find a vase for, no food that needs to be served immediately, etc. Some people do worry about wine, but I’m guessing you know your boss well enough to know whether that would be welcome or not. Ditto with food or scent allergies. Other ideas might be a small assortment of spices, jams, or honeys; a small table game (something like Hygge or Fluxx, nothing NSFW like CAH), or a light fiction book (nothing religious). Worst case scenario, your boss appreciates the thought but regifts it.

    Reply ↓
    1. Required*

      OP here gave a more detailed response in a thread up the list but they do seem to have come around there’s some off hand remarks from other coworkers from time to time now but I don’t let them bother me as long as my output is good and my manager is happy.

      Reply ↓
  49. Fluffy Orange Menace*

    LW1: Your coworker, despite her assertion, isn’t angry at you. She is angry at herself that either she didn’t KNOW she could do this, or she knew but was afraid to do so, and you managed successfully something she didn’t/couldn’t. If it comes up again, I’d say something like “If I don’t advocate for myself and what I want, who will? We have to be our strongest advocates. Remember that next time you’re interviewing and it will serve you well!”

    Reply ↓
    1. Required*

      OP here thank you I think thats the case as well and don’t think there’s even enough information for them to compare our situations. They don’t know my compensation and we are not in the same role.

      Reply ↓
  50. Observer*

    #2 – You got referred and are worrying about saying thanks.

    LW, I think that you are either over-thinking, there is more to the story or Greg is a jerk. Because no reasonable person should see exercising *baisc* politeness as a “betrayal”.

    The reason I wonder if there is more to the story is that it took *so* long and a meeting of the board to get rid of Sean. Small businesses owned by one person generally don’t have a Board. Even if they do have a board of some sort, the owner generally doesn’t need to “oust” an *employee*, especially one that is under-performing as badly as you describe.

    Anyway, even if Greg were 100% correct that Sean is a terrible person and an even worse employee, if you are going to accept work coming through him, you need to act like a reasonable human being and be polite.

    Reply ↓
  51. LW#2*

    Hi all, the overthinking freelancer here. The TL;DR is that I just sent Sean a thank-you message. Obviously there was a reason that it was bothering me so much to consider not doing it, and it’s both the right thing to do human-wise and business-wise.

    A couple people have wondered about the whole board-firing thing and why Gary would have let this go on for so long if Sean wasn’t working out, and I can’t say that I understand all the intricacies of the business but my understanding is that because Sean had some sort of stake in it (options? I don’t know, there’s a reason I don’t run a multi-person company!) it involved first a lot of mediation and then a lot of drawn-out legal checking and whatnot to make sure that removing him from the company was above board.

    Anyway, thanks for the gut check on this. (Except the person who called me ‘silly.’ You know this is an advice column, right? Our emotions are often silly!)

    Reply ↓
    1. Observer*

      Thanks for the additional information. Yes, there is *definitely* more to the story. If Sean had some sort of stake, then Greg did not “hire” Sean, although it is possible that this is how the story started.

      That’s not to say that Sean wasn’t the main issue here. But still, there are pieces here that you either don’t know or don’t understand.

      Oh, and don’t become business partners with either of them.

      Reply ↓
  52. Audrey*

    Alison — would you be willing to do an entire post on this advice?

    “I used to think the cure for burn-out was lots of downtime and relaxation — and sometimes it is — but what’s worked better for me personally is regularly using my brain for something completely different. Otherwise you’re just wearing the same grooves into it all the time and (at least for me) that’s been where my worst burn-out has come from.”

    This was mind blowing for me, and so useful!! I’d really love to hear further perspective from you on it.

    Reply ↓
  53. I'm just here for the cats!!*

    I will add #4 instead of plants you could bring flowers, if you know the boss would like it. But with plants you do need to be careful as some plants are very toxic to pets. For example all lilys are toxic to cats. Even a little of the pollen can make them sick. So if you know the boss has kids or pets maybe don’t do a plant or flowers.
    Another thought if you are worried about gifts should flow downword is you could bring something to share with the group. Bring some sparkling juice or a box of chocolates.

    Reply ↓
  54. cloudy with a chance of meatballs*

    LW 1, I had a boss like your angry coworker. We were hired at the same time for a new program. They were upset that I negotiated the terms of my job, and then they didn’t like how I did anything. I got sick from the stress, and I left at the end of the second year of working with them.

    Reply ↓
    1. Required*

      Op here Im sorry that happened its unfortunate we can’t openly share our negotiations with some people without them taking it personally I think it would help go correct wages.

      Reply ↓

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