warning an intern about a bad manager, former colleague is running a scam, and more

by Alison Green on January 20, 2025

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. Should I have warned an intern about a bad manager?

I am a middle manager in a large organization and I am second-guessing how I handled a situation with an employee whom I used to supervise.

From 2020 to 2021, I had the pleasure of supervising an outstanding intern, Anna. Anna was the kind of employee that any employer would be lucky to have. During her internship, Anna expressed interest in staying on with us after her graduation. It can be difficult to secure full-time permanent employment with our organization, and the hiring process is lengthy and onerous for managers and candidates alike. However, there is a “shortcut” for qualified former interns to transition to a permanent position upon graduation. Anna was eventually offered such a position by one of my peers, and she asked my advice on whether she should accept the offer.

My dilemma: The hiring manager was known to have terrible people management skills (not at the level of abuse or harassment, but that’s a pretty low bar). However, I chose not to share this with Anna. I didn’t want to “poison the well” or unduly influence her, and thought she was mature enough to make her own decision. I also thought that a well-paid permanent position with great benefits isn’t something that comes along every day for new grads, and the internal mobility opportunities would mean that even if this particular job wasn’t a good fit, Anna wouldn’t be stuck there for long. So, I took more of a coaching role in our conversation rather than an advice-giving one (though I did suggest she speak with current employees on the team). In the end, Anna accepted the manager’s offer.

Anna’s team has ended up being just as, if not more, toxic as I had feared and Anna’s mental health has taken a beating. Anna eventually found other opportunities within the organization but I feel terrible that I didn’t warn her to run far away from the bad manager in the first place. What, if anything, could I have done differently?

I’m a fan of letting people know when a lot of other people have found a manager tough to work with. You don’t need to come out and say “she’s a nightmare” if you don’t feel comfortable being that candid, but you can say, “I do want to warn you some people have found her to be a difficult boss. I don’t have firsthand experience, but I’d definitely suggest talking to people who have worked for her and asking about their experiences so that you’re not going in blind.” If you know specifics — or specific themes — ideally you’d find a way to share those.

“Well-paid positions with great benefits don’t come along every day and she wouldn’t be stuck there for long” is a legitimate thing for Anna to decide, but it shouldn’t be something you decide on her behalf.

2. Former colleague is running a scam

My partner, Chris, has recently gotten an advanced degree in a newer and very niche field which has documented ROI for businesses, but tends to get cut as non-essential when businesses are doing their yearly budgeting. Since it’s so niche, Chris has worked collaboratively with many people in the industry in our country (non-U.S.). Since it’s a growing industry, he’s also been tapped to teach, including for the university where he got his masters.

The problem is that last year one of his colleagues, Hank, ran a master’s program at the local university and asked Chris to teach a course, throughout which Chris came to understand the program almost didn’t happen due to enrollment being too low to justify the cost. Hank also has a small consulting business for this field. About 50% of the students in the course (all the most recent enrollees) were brand new employees of Hank’s business. Turns out, Hank had employed these new consultants on the condition that they enroll in the year-long master’s program.

Chris has been made aware from one of his former students that none of Hank’s employees have earned enough as consultants to recoup their tuition fees in the year since they graduated, and most of these employees have returned to their former industries. And still, Hank is asking Chris to teach another course for the same program as he has a fresh new crop of bright-eyed consultants to pay the high tuition fees. Chris has turned down the opportunity, citing low bandwidth, but I think he has a greater responsibility to communicate with his contacts higher up in this small university to make them aware of the ethical issue at hand. Chris is more concerned this will hurt him in the long run if Hank finds out he went above his head. How do you think he should handle this situation?

Yes, Chris has a moral and ethical responsibility to tell his contacts there what’s going on. Hank is exploiting his employees to pressure them to enroll in the program that justifies his job; it’s an abuse of power, and it’s something that the university wouldn’t want to be associated with if they knew. You should encourage Chris to think through exactly how this could hurt him if Hank finds out about it. If his fears are warranted, he can ask his contacts to investigate without naming him as the person who provided the initial tip-off.

3. Can I befriend my future coworker’s daughter?

I moved cities six months ago and am working on transferring to the site closer to home. In preparation for my new role, I’ve been meeting with people I will be working with, to start establishing my new working relationships.

Recently I met with “Beth,” who I will be working with closely. Beth seems friendly and competent and we hit it off well. I’m excited to work with her! After our initial meeting, we did some small talk and she told me a bit about her daughter. It sounds like her daughter is around my age and we have some common interests. Also, her daughter’s job is close to where I live and she is considering moving to my suburb.

Can I try to befriend the daughter somehow? Would it be weird or inappropriate to try? Do I need to wait until I’ve been at the new site for a while and have more of a relationship with Beth? Can I just ask for a number or is there a more roundabout way to approach it?

You don’t have a lot to go on here, so I think it would be too much to come out with, “I’d like to have lunch with Jane. Can you connect us?” But you could certainly say, “If Jane is looking for people to talk with about llama grooming (or whatever the mutual interest is), feel free to give her my contact info. I’m still pretty new to the area and would love to meet people who are into llama combing techniques!” Then Beth can decide, based on her knowledge of her daughter (and potentially her feelings about meshing work and family worlds in that way), whether to connect you.

4. Network separately or stick together at conferences?

I recently attended a conference with a majority of my colleagues — 160 folks at a statewide conference on a topic marginally applicable to my position (and theirs). I was going to sit with a coworker, but someone I met on the field tour the day before asked me to sit with him and I moved tables. We had good discussions on his projects, and I met four folks I had not met previously.

My question has to do with perception or best practice. The other 16 coworkers stayed in “our” group and sat together, but did mingle during the breaks and the after-hours event. I always think it is better to spread out and meet someone new and learn about how the subject impacts them, so I generally will sit with new people at conferences. My boss said someone asked if I was mad at my colleagues since I didn’t sit with them. Personally, I think my colleagues looked less approachable since they were together. Not everyone is comfortable sitting with strangers (and I am exhausted at the end of my day), so I understand. Professionally, which should happen? What should I do at the next conference (in three months)?

It’s really up to each individual attendee, but a big part of the benefit of conferences is networking so your approach is generally the more useful one. It’s a little odd that your colleagues interpreted that as you being “mad at them,” but if traditionally they’ve all stuck together at conferences, they may see it more as team bonding time than networking time. Maybe before the next one you can mention to them that you see conferences as an opportunity to meet new people in your field, which has been useful in X and Y ways, and so you try to break off from the group and talk to other attendees.

5. Who owns a work journal?

I know that work products created in the course of most regular employment belong to the organization — but what about materials that have to do with work but are entirely individual? I’m thinking of notes or reflections on one’s own performance, written in a paper notebook bought with personal funds but on the subject of work, e.g. self-determined goals, how to improve job performance or satisfaction, and so on. Stuff that feels really personal (like, wouldn’t pass it on to my hypothetical successor, wouldn’t want it to be read by colleagues or boss without redaction) but is created during the work day, related to work experiences but not work products.

Basically, I feel that my work output and experience could both be improved through more reflection and intentional goal- and priority-setting on a more granular level than I get from my boss, but I would be afraid of what I write getting into the wrong hands (though it’s unlikely, as I’d keep my notebook in my bag and we don’t have a snoopy office). But bringing a personal journal to work sounds like a terrible idea! And I would want to keep a record, not write on TP and burn it immediately after.

I feel on a basic moral/logical level that everyone is entitled to an inner world and room for errors, honest unpolished reflection, and at least a tiny bit of privacy, but I don’t think that’s totally true in reality. In practice, I don’t think it’s super likely that my notebook would be intercepted (one reason to stick to paper), but I’m still curious.

Technically under the law, your employer could argue that it belonged to them — because products relating to your work created at work belong to your employer.

But in practice, they’d be very unlikely try; it’s not the sort of thing most managers would have any interest in laying claim to. The worst scenario would be more likely to be someone misunderstanding what was in the notebook, thinking you had notes on clients or projects that someone else could benefit from, and insisting you turn it over when leaving. But you could easily avoid that by taking it home with you before you quit. Other than that, as long as you kept it in your bag, it’s very unlikely to be claimed by your company.

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{ 39 comments }

{ 39 comments… read them below or add one }

  1. Ask a Manager* Post author

    A reminder: We’ve had a recent increase in trolling here, and you can help me by NOT RESPONDING to it. Instead, please flag the comment for me (to do that, reply with a link, which will send your comment to moderation so I’ll see it) and I’ll take care of it. If you want, you can respond “reported” so people know it’s been dealt with and isn’t just being allowed to stand. But please do not engage. Thank you.

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  2. Daria grace*

    #2, the university should have a whistleblower procedure and contact for raising unethical conduct that is designed to as far as possible protect the whistleblower. This very much falls into the category of things that should be reported to them

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    1. Observer*

      That’s a great suggestion.

      The university should absolutely want to know about this, even if they don’t give a flip about ethics. At least in the US, something like this could cause them immense trouble if it ever hit the press or regulators got their teeth into it.

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      1. I Would Rather Be Eating Dumplings*

        Well, and depending on what Hank is telling his students, there is potential for a lawsuit. No way to know for sure from this letter, but it’s not unprecended in this general situation.

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  3. Observer*

    #1 – Advice to the intern

    “Well-paid positions with great benefits don’t come along every day and she wouldn’t be stuck there for long” is a legitimate thing for Anna to decide, but it shouldn’t be something you decide on her behalf.

    If you take nothing else away *this* is the main thing you need to keep in mind. Not just for interns. Do not make decisions for people. Give them the information they need and let them make their *own* decision.

    As a practical matter, it’s possible that if Anna had known that this manager is that bad, it might have helped her mental health. Because it can make a *huge* difference in how something lands when you know that you are not the problem, your manager is.

    Fundamentally, given your position, you did have a moral obligation to give her a heads up. Not “Oh, she’s a monster.” But the kind of language that Alison provides is a warning that lays out the potential problem and allows her to do her due diligence and make a reasonable decision.

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    1. Meera*

      Yes, especially if Anna was new – when inexperienced, it can be hard to tell the difference between legitimate feedback and gaslighting; or what is and isn’t reasonable professional behavior for both yourself and your manager. But a bit of info might have helped put that in context; and also provided a contact for a sympathetic ear or someone to talk things over with to help parse that out.

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    2. Aggretsuko*

      I’ve been scarred for life and developed a mental disability after a bad job. Mine was a drastically different situation than this, but a bad boss/work situation is like drinking poison in able to live. I get what your logic was at the time, but next time, I’d warn the person, because recovery from work abuse is a lot to deal with.

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    3. Seal*

      Agreed. It would be different if the OP had shared information about benefits and opportunities for advancement with the intern when she asked for advice about taking the job in question. Those are all things that often factor into the decision to accept a job or not, and things someone new to the workforce and/or a full time job might not know or think to consider. The same is true about giving their intern a heads up about a bad manager. I’ve seen and coached a number of interns and students at my various workplaces and most of them knew very little about the organization beyond their particular unit. Those who moved into permanent positions elsewhere in the organization once they graduated often experienced a great deal of culture shock, even if they had a good manager. While you don’t want to discourage a good intern in particular for applying for or accepting a permanent position, you do have an obligation to warn them about any red flags you know of.

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      1. Agree*

        “Agreed. It would be different if the OP had shared information about benefits and opportunities for advancement with the intern when she asked for advice about taking the job in question.”

        Yes! If this is an important criteria for OP, they can say so. Every grown person understands that people prioritize different things (as money, job security, personal relationships, room for advancement). But OP should not assume everybody has the same priorities and be clear how they come to a recommendation.

        Also, I would consider telling this Anna. When I had a similar situation at work, i doubted myself heavily, because I thought it was me who was the problem. If the manager was problematic, obviously not everybody would have such a good relationship with them? It helped me a lot when finally somebody was honest with me. That allowed me to re-calibrate things. But I understand that it is risky for a manager.

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    4. BellStell*

      This exactly. I had a similar situation last year that involved HR too. In August my former manager and former team hired my 2023 intern. She asked me to be a reference so HR sent me the form which I filled out honestly and flagged that the missing stair *who had already had two employees moved from him because he sucks that much* was not in a place to manager her much less train her for the role *because he does not know how to do things in the role like website work etc* and I know because he used to come to me and his former employees (the two moved) to ask us to do stuff. I spoke to HR too and asked “given the situation do you really think this is a good idea?” And alllllll HR said was if new employee/former intern began to have issues she would have to bring them up”. Well there you go and guess what? Things are ok because former intern has decided she now wants his job so is using him just as much hahaha

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      1. Nah*

        Honestly? Good for her! If she keeps it up maybe you’ll have an actually competent leader in that position someday, lol.

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  4. RLC*

    LW4: I’m another “conferences are for networking and building new relationships” proponent. And I’ve had colleagues who also huddled together in their own little comfortable group and wondered what on earth made me so interested in circulating and learning new things from new people in our field. I’d try (usually without success) to get said colleagues to circulate with me, and end up figuring that they didn’t want to leave their comfort zone.

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    1. allathian*

      For me it really depends on the conference, but I’m in a fairly small field and the conference I attend most regularly usually has about 150 attendees, so it’s not huge. There’s only one panel track, for example. I generally attend with my coworker who has the same job description. We generally sit together during the presentations because it’s not appropriate to network with others when you’re supposed to listen to the presentation and maybe ask a question at the Q&A. But both of us make a point to network with other people during lunch, dinner on the first of two days, and coffee breaks. I’m glad my coworker and I are on the same page on this!

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    2. Ellis Bell*

      I’m just so weirded out by the way this message was delivered to OP: “My boss said someone asked if I was mad at my colleagues since I didn’t sit with them”. Who is the “someone” and why are they given to maximum drama in their assumptions? Why didn’t the boss respond with something more reasonable? Or tell OP what they thought themselves? Is this a really poorly worded joke not meant to be taken seriously? I suppose it’s possible the boss agreed with a random bystander/colleague so much that they felt reporting the perception was worth more than expressing their own views, or actual advice. I’d be more inclined to take the boss seriously if they’d said something about the optics of a good team being important to them, and leaving some room for dialogue on the topic.

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      1. Myrin*

        I had the same thoughts. It’s not even clear if the “someone” was one of the conference-attending colleagues in question, someone else from OP’s company (who had maybe heard about the situation in passing without being involved), or another conference attendee who has nothing to do with OP’s company (except for, apparently, noticing whether they all appear as a group at all times or not).
        What a vague and strange piece of “feedback”.

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      2. Irish Teacher.*

        I’m guessing it made a bit more sense in context, like somebody said, “I hope we didn’t do anything to offend LW. She seemed to be avoiding us at the conference” and the manager perhaps phrased it badly, saying “people thought you were ‘mad’ at them.”

        But yeah, it seems like a rather middle school way to describe things. I’d be more likely to assume that a colleague had met a friend from outside our company or something. At the conferences I’ve attended, it is usual for colleagues to sit together, but I wouldn’t assume somebody was annoyed at everybody if they didn’t.

        However, I also wouldn’t really think it’s about comfort zones if people prefer t remain with colleagues. People have different aims for attending conferences and some may find t more beneficial to remain with colleagues and discuss how topics relate to their specific context or they may be more interested in learning from the presentations than in networking.

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    3. Nodramalama*

      To me it’s weird you tried to “get them out of their comfort zones”. It’s not a high school disco. Lots of people do not like networking.

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      1. Nebula*

        But networking is generally considered one of the main reasons for going to conferences. Whether people like it or not, it’s not ridiculous to try and encourage them to network.

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      2. Magpie*

        Why is it weird? It doesn’t sound like RLC was being weird or forceful about convincing colleagues to network. It sounds more like they said “I’m going to go circulate and meet some new people, does anyone want to come with?” and then didn’t press when everyone declined. Sometimes people feel more comfortable doing new things when someone offers to do it with them so maybe someone in the group was waiting for that kind of offer.

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    4. AcademiaNut*

      I tend to circulate but also interact with local colleagues. I’ll also keep an eye on juniors or new people when I’m at a familiar conference – introduce them to people, make sure they’ve got an invite to join the group for dinner the first night – so that if they want to network themselves, they have a good start on it.

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    5. Maxouillenet*

      One day I had a training session with other sheltered workshops for customer-facing sectors. At the start, each sheltered workshop worker was grouped with the coworkers from their sheltered workshop, including me. The trainer made us stand up and change places so that we were with the same neighbors as before.
      ( It was a training session in small group, there must have been a dozen of us)
      So okay, it wasn’t a networking event, but it enabled me to develop my networking without giving the impression that you’re angry with your coworkers, since it was the trainer’s decision )
      So I think it was a good initiative, even if the trainer had other faults ( nothing serious, just the classic fault of thinking that all angry customers have a limit they won’t cross, and thinking that we’re caricaturing when in role-play we’re imitating a customer who’s realistically not nice).

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  5. SamiSalami*

    OP #5: At a previous job, I kept a similar notebook. I had also stuffed in kind notes and letters from colleagues and parents (I was a teacher).
    There were plenty of random personal/professional notes, ideas, questions, concerns, etc., etc., etc.
    If I wasn’t actively using it, I tossed it back in my bag and, of course, I took my bag home with me every night.
    It wasn’t a secret, but I definitely knew that most of my colleagues had no clue about it.
    TBH, I’d venture to say having one is pretty common – especially amongst teachers.

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  6. nnn*

    #5: nothing you’ve described seems in any way weird to me, but if you’re feeling weird about it, you could try mentally reframing it from “personal journal” to “notebook”. Nothing weird about having a notebook in your bag!

    If, for some bizarre reason, someone at work expressed interest in seeing your notes, you could frame it as “Oh, this is just where I jot down random things so I don’t forget. It’s incohesive and interspersed with a bunch of personal notes, and won’t make sense to any other human being. Give me a moment and I’ll type up something you’ll actually be able to use.”

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  7. Allonge*

    LW5 – as a manager, my two concerns with what you are describing would be:

    – how do I make our relationship so that you are comfortable sharing the outcomes of your reflections with me when it gets to the level that it needs support / approval etc. from the company?

    – how much time are you spending on this at work. To be clear, there is no problem spending time on this – in fact I would be delighted to hear that my team does it – but as always, there are limits due to work.

    Otherwise? Go ahead. In a way the ‘is this the property of the company’ aspect makes little sense – as the reflections are most likely only valuable to you personally, the company has no interest in claiming them, and any reasonably sane manager will not devote time to getting them. Go and try it!

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    1. Cats and dogs*

      It’s seems one idea could be to just jot a few notes at work and fill in the reflections at home. This way it is not really work product and also not using up work time to write it.

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  8. Moose*

    LW5: if you work in government, a journal like you describe could fall under FOIA. Just remember that when you’re writing it.

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    1. bamcheeks*

      Yeah, I was thinking that! In GDPR land, if you’d written anything about a colleague or a report that included their name, initial, a nickname you’d made up if anything else, and they made a subject access request, my understanding is that you have to send a copy of it. You’re probably not under GDPR, but if you do any kind of work where disclosure, FOIA etc might be in play, “this is just personal notes [about how I handled a direct report’s medical issue and what I could have done differently]” probably won’t cut it.

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      2. Allonge*

        As always, any legal issue is ‘it depends’ but anonymization will solve a lot of the GDPR concerns. If the data subject is not identifiable (like, legit not identifiable), the rules are much lighter.

        Fair point though: do NOT put detail about people’s medical conditions (or sensitive info in general) in official or unofficial work journalling. Most likely the specifics are irrelevant to OP’s professional development in any case.

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  9. Nodramalama*

    LW4 is so funny to me because at a conference I intend to talk to only people I already know so staying in a clump sounds perfect to me. That said if you’re one of those people who actually enjoys networking, yes, splitting off is better.

    Lw5 assume that any record you make of anything at work, your employer will be able to see if they want, or need to. And there may genuinely be times they need to (e.g freedom of information)

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  10. I Would Rather Be Eating Dumplings*

    Re No 2: I think your partner should also be weighing the possibility of blowback if this comes out in another way and it’s revealed he was aware of the scam and said nothing.

    I can’t speak for all sectors, but in my industry, that awareness with no followup would torpedo his reputation.

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    1. I Would Rather Be Eating Dumplings*

      Not to mention someone like Hank sounds unscrupulous enough that if there is a scandal, he’d be willing to try and use your husband’s name to try and downplay the severity of his actions; and if your husband didn’t say anything, that will increase the likelihood he is tarred with that same brush..

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  11. Kate, short for Bob*

    LW5 – why not stick a poem in the front and intersperse with shopping lists and to dos? Then if anyone asks what you’re writing, you’re just capturing a thought before it goes so you can concentrate better on the work task at hand.

    You shouldn’t really be journalling-journalling at work anyway so that sort of quick capture “I should have been more proactive about nickname not dusting her llama” might be less likely to pose an ethical problem in the future?

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  12. Longtime Lurker*

    LW 5 — I kept a notebook at a previous job where I had to do a lot of historical research and occasionally learn a new alphabet so I could decode/translate things. It was full of notes and research and processes to help me with those alphabets. I kept it on my desk but I don’t think my coworkers/supervisor ever noticed or would have cared that it was technically related to the business. I scooped it up along with my potted plants and snacks when I left and no one gave a hoot or has ever asked me about it. Just to give you some peace of mind!

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  13. Danielle*

    #1 Difficult potential boss: it would have been a great service to both warn Anna with specifics and then offer advice if she wished. My current job has quite a few “lumps” but it helped immensely that, during the interview process, multiple people informed me of them. It allowed me to set my expectations properly. Especially for the bad boss + first full time job combo! Advance notice could have helped Anna avoid doubting herself and wondering if it was normal — the two aspects of having a lousy boss that I think is the worst for you.

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  14. Jellyfish Catcher*

    #3:
    Here would be my thoughts, if you had asked to meet my daughter. This applies if you were male or female.
    First, I don’t know you. We’ve not even begun to work together. I would be introducing basically a stranger to my daughter and that’s a nope. I would want to know you at work first and that takes some time.

    Second, it’s a boundary push, going from “we hit it off” to asking for an introduction to my family. Yes, you are new to the area, which is hard, I sympathize.
    Get to know your job and coworkers and organically relationships will develop with them.

    Third, you are new. Prove yourself at work, and understand that your coworker might not want to risk enmeshing a work relationship with both a personal relationship AND a family member relationship.
    It will smooth out – take your time, you can do this.

    3

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