open thread – March 21, 2025

by Alison Green on March 21, 2025

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Not counter cultural*

    Just curious how your company would handle an employee without a smartphone (for app/login verification) and who wanted paper paychecks? Friend of mine said her office just hired a guy who is rather counter-cultural. He doesn’t even have a flip phone and wants paper paychecks. HR said you either get your pay on a debit card or direct deposit. No paper checks. IT didn’t have yubikeys for physical authentication of logons. I’m told IT wanted the guy’s manager or supervisor to be his authentication on their phones and all refused. IT had to order a yubikey.

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      1. Alice*

        I don’t really get that. If you are doing data security seriously, wouldn’t you want to provide the device that people are using for 2FA? Instead of letting them use whatever personal device they happen to have, with who knows what applications sideloaded on to it, and whose passcode might be known to their kids and partner.

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        1. EmF*

          My employer recently switched to requiring Microsoft Authenticator as its sole and only 2FA method, which seems really at odds with its policy of “do not ever use personal devices for work purposes.”

          Like, I get that 2FA apps by themselves aren’t terrible when it comes to crossing the work/personal streams, but I know how tech-savvy a lot of my colleagues are (“No, you should not use google translate to translate that email that contains a bunch of PII.”) and I can absolutely see people going “oh, it’s okay to use my personal device for work purposes for this, it’s not that big a jump to using it for this other thing.”

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          1. Molly the cat*

            The problem with those IMO is that if I randomly lose my personal phone or it breaks, I have to deal with it immediately. I can’t just go to work and then deal with the personal phone problem later.

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        2. I'm just here for the cats!!*

          The thing is that people are going to be more secure with their own devices than some random key fob. When we had them at past jobs people would lose them all the time.

          At one place if you didn’t or couldn’t have it on your own cell phone you could use a work phone number to get a phone call with a one time passcode. I don’t know what my one coworker did when they changed the phone system to VOIP and you had to be logged into the system to get a phone call (which you needed to have a passcode for).

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      2. Charlotte Lucas*

        There are secure authentication devices that don’t require a smartphone. It should be provided by the employer.

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        1. JustCuz*

          We have these things that give you a randomly generated number when you push the button. You then enter that number in.

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        2. I've Escaped Cubicle Land*

          Seconding Charlotte Lucas. I work for a state government department. They went for a security thing that called our desk phones to wanting us to put an app on our cell phones. No they would not give us work cell phones or pay a percentage of our cell phone bills. So that was a no from me. (luckily i had an very old android at the time that wouldn’t have down loaded an app without dying) So the state provided yubikeys. I also live in a rural small town. Great reliable internet, but spotty cell service. Paper checks I can see saying no to. They offered more then 1 way of getting paid. Might night be his preferred way. But he has options to choose from.

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      3. Hyaline*

        Yes—but I honestly think requiring a phone as the device is unreasonable when there are other options. I work at a university and we’ve always had the option of a key fob style token for login authentication.

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      4. Observer*

        No authentication device = you don’t get hired. Lots of data security requirements.

        That’s out of line. There is no good reason to not supply the authentication device yourself. *Especially* if you really need the authentication.

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    3. NotaMac*

      My perspective is that requiring staff to use their personal phones for login is unreasonable and frankly cheap. Other solutions exist that don’t require staff to donate their personal device and data, and why companies want folks logging in using unsecured personal phones I don’t know.

      Paper pay cheques is certainly unusual, but I wonder if they could force anyone to use direct deposit if someone really pushed it. Anyone got legal precedent?

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      1. Not counter cultural*

        How is using an authentication app on a personal smartphone a security risk? My company required Google Authenticator, which I was already using for personal stuff.

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        1. Angstrom*

          I don’t want any work-related software on my personal devices. If I need it to do my job work should supply the equipment needed.

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          1. Not counter cultural*

            I’m not talking about work related software. I’m talking about adding the work login to an app you’re already using for personal stuff. My office required Google Authenticator. I was already using it. I just added work login.

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            2. EmF*

              Great! I also use outlook on my personal PC. By that logic, can I add my work email? It’s an app I’m already using for personal stuff, after all.

              (I’m aware there are qualitative differences in the sensitivity of data being transmitted, but the logic’s the same.)

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              1. Strive to Excel*

                I’ll say that I’m a huge proponent of “No work on personal devices”, but the authenticator is my exception since I don’t want to carry around an extra key-fob or whatever. It’s because a) the sensitivity of the data is wildly different and b) there is 0 temptation to look at the authenticator app and say “ah yes, I should answer this email on a weekend!”.

                I don’t have a work phone though. If I did have a work phone my response would be different. The authenticator is my one and only exception.

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                1. amoeba*

                  Yeah, and least for us, the frequency with which you use it is so much lower. I mean, I use MS Authenticator maaaaaybe… once a month? Like, buying devices just for that seems so over the top. (Although we do get company smartphones nowadays, so it wouldn’t be a problem either way.)

                  That said, I guess IT would probably find a way around that requirement. The paper paychecks would be an absolute no, though. But I guess here in Europe that would seem even more weird, as cheques haven’t really been in use here for as far as I can remember – certainly decades! Everything is direct deposit/bank transfer, there is simply no other option. I mean, I don’t think it’s even possible for a person responsible for their own bills and stuff to *not* have that hereabouts.

                2. Anonymoose*

                  @amoeba
                  Agreed about paper paycheques feeling antiquated. About 10 years ago now the Canadian government had a huge clusterfk with their new pay system that failed to pay many employees, and at that time they resorted to paper cheques. At the time it felt like a really outdated way to deal with things, but at least that worked. Other than that, I haven’t heard of anyone using paper in a long time! My mother needed to send me some money and I ended up talking her through eTransfers rather than have to cash a piece of paper.

                3. Unicorn on Stilts*

                  I work for a local government. We’ve been told (rightly or wrongly) that having any work information on our personal phones means that our phone could be considered a work phone and therefore is FOIA-able. I’m not willing to chance it.

                4. AcademiaNut*

                  The authenticator is the one work thing I have on my phone, as it’s basically a synched random number generator – after you intitialize it, there’s no further communication.

                  However, I now have 9 different work authentications* on my phone, some of which get used multiple times a day, which is freaking annoying, because it means I have to have my cellphone on me and charged to work.

                  *three different VPNS for machines in different institutes, plus email, Github, two different JIRA systems, Slack, and a document repository.

      2. Miss Woodhouse*

        My workplace has about 2000+ employees and will not give out paper checks. You either do DD into a bank account or you have your pay deposited on a card provided by the cash card vendor we contract with. There are no exceptions. Don’t have a bank account? Cash card. Don’t want to use the cash card? Direct deposit. That’s it. Two options.

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        1. Pentapus*

          I don’t know what would happen if you insisted, but my 4000+ person company absolutely sends you a cheque for the first month, because even though you put your banking info in the system on day 1, it still takes weeks to process.

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    4. Charlotte Lucas*

      I work for state government. If you need a smartphone, one is supplied to you. (For various reasons, personal devices should never be used for work purposes.) I am not sure about pay, but I did work somewhere that had a similar policy about direct deposit or debit cards. However, they were capable of cutting paper checks, as everyone’s first check was paper.

      I live in a state with a fairly large Amish population in some parts, so if he has religious objections, I could see making an accommodation, but I think he’ll have to be paid however they usually pay people. (I mean, paper checks are pretty modern in the grand scheme of things, and still traceable, if that’s his concern.)

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      1. Not counter cultural*

        Is a smartphone supplied even just for app verification and the like, not when required for work phone calls, etc., outside of business hours.

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        1. Charlotte Lucas*

          It’s only supplied if you need it for phone use. I don’t have one (or want one!), but I have access to my phone through Teams on my computer.

          Everyone gets a separate authentication device that is only for that purpose. Much more secure than a random smartphone.

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      2. ThatGirl*

        Hilariously, I know a lot of Amish folks do use computers/smartphones if it’s for business use. Just not for their personal lives. Not totally sure about banking but I have never heard of an objection to direct deposit.

        (source: me, raised Mennonite, have worked with Amish folks.)

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    5. Not counter cultural*

      Added note: friend told me none of this came up in interview process. It became an issue on guy’s first day or work.

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      1. Mad Harry Crewe*

        Sure, I wouldn’t have raised it either. I started a job with MFA requirements and didn’t have a smartphone. I certainly didn’t say anything in the interview. They got me a yubikey and it wasn’t a problem at all.

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        1. Wendy Darling*

          There are all kinds of MFA solutions that don’t require a smartphone. Yubikeys and similar are the new hotness but the smartphone MFA apps are just replacements for those physical TOTP keychain fobs. Personally I prefer the app because my ADHD ass has an easier time keeping track of my personal phone than the key fob, but if someone doesn’t have a smartphone or wants to stand on principle, a TOTP token costs under $20.

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      2. I should really pick a name*

        It’s on the company to say a cell phone is needed. There’s no reason for the applicant to bring it up.

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    6. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      They could get their paycheques on a preloaded Debit card, and the MFA that I’ve had to use have had a “phone call” option instead of a code or a push notification.

      Echo that this person would have no leverage and it would take little to make them more trouble than they’re worth to the company.

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      1. Not counter cultural*

        Friend’s coworker was offered choice of debit card or direct deposit. He didn’t want either. I’m assuming he went with debit card, if he was against direct deposit, but I’m not sure.

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      2. amoeba*

        I mean, if they don’t even own a flip phone, a phone call probably wouldn’t work either, unless he was full time WFH with a landline or an office landline… (which would pose its own problems as those are typically shared and thus not secure, right?)

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    7. Blue Pen*

      I think paper paychecks could be accommodated in my workplace (?), but if they’re working from home, there’s a lot of security authentication they’d need a smartphone for.

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      1. Philosophia*

        Nope. I work hybrid for a unit with pretty high security requirements, and all I need are the various programs installed on my employer-supplied laptop and a keyfob. I haven’t lost either yet —insert rite of aversion here—and I’ve been commuting with the keyfob since the Before Times.

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        1. Clisby*

          Yeah, I’m sure I’m behind the times, but the idea that you need a smartphone to do remote work sounds odd to me. I worked remotely for years, and the security had nothing to do with smartphones. First, I had to login in on the laptop my company had provided, and then I had to go through the employer-required vpn.

          (None of this was Microsoft or Apple – I was working on a combination of unix/solaris, linux, and IBM mainframe.)

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    8. Resident Catholicville, U.S.A.*

      I’m about to boot the last paper check person off of them and make him get a pay card. (We provide it, if he doesn’t want to do direct deposit to his bank account.) I don’t know why this is still an issue- everyone else who got paper checks switched to direct deposit to their own bank account or got a pay card, so I don’t know what his deal is. Fortunately, we can make our own paper checks in house (that wasn’t a thing at our last payroll company and they charged us a stupid amount per week to cut live checks and overnight them to us) so that isn’t the issue- but it’s literally an extra step during payroll that shouldn’t even be happening in today’s day and age. If someone needs one temporarily because of bank issues, I’m fine doing that, but it’s getting silly cutting 1 check a week.

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        1. RagingADHD*

          This is not quite right. Poor credit by itself is irrelevant for opening a bank account, particularly if you show up with money or a verifiable check in hand to deposit. They aren’t extending credit.

          However, a history of bouncing checks (which is not quite the same as bad credit, though often related to similar life situations) may make it difficult to get a checking account. You could probably still get a savings account with that initial deposit if you shop around, such as at credit unions.

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        2. Magpie*

          Banks aren’t typically looking at credit scores when deciding whether to open a new account for someone. The most common reason for not having access to a bank account is not having a photo id or proof of citizenship, but someone with a job that prefers direct deposit likely needs those documents in order to get the job in the first place so that wouldn’t be an impediment to getting a bank account.

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            1. Magpie*

              Maybe Navy Federal is an outlier, or maybe they weren’t clear about the reason for your denial. Banks DO have a system called ChexSystems that they check when deciding whether to offer a bank account. This system shows a person’s banking history and whether they have a history or overdrafts, fraud, or unpaid fees. Maybe this check is what you’re thinking of that led to your denial. But this system is looking at banking history, not credit scores.

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              1. Flash*

                ChexSystems is absolutely a credit reporting company. I’ve applied to get a checking account at a bank that uses them before- they ran a hard credit check and then denied me because our credit systems in the US are a patchwork mess that don’t work if you’ve done so much as change your name once in your life for any reason.

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                1. JustaTech*

                  Or if you’ve ever been the victim of identity theft.

                  This is an ongoing problem for my husband, but it only ever seems to come up at Credit Unions – not regular banks. But it’s still a really frustrating PITA for him and a lot of things end up in my name only because of it.

            2. Anon for this*

              Bank’s and Credit Unions do look at scoring models AND Chex Systems history when opening accounts. Low scores and/or poor Chex Systems history can limit what type of account can be opened and what type of transaction activity you can have.

              For example where I work we have a “Cash Only” savings account. You can get a direct deposit, and you can deposit and withdraw cash. But you can’t deposit checks, unless for some reason it was required by law, and can’t have an ATM or Debit card. It’s really like the last of last chance account types.

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              1. RagingADHD*

                Yes, it affects stuff like overdraft protection and the willingness of banks to allow writing or cashing actual checks, because that requires them to float the difference.

                But it’s not a 1:1 “bad credit = impossible to get any kind of bank account” situation.

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              2. RLC*

                Recently opened a checking account for an irrevocable trust and the banker stated that a soft credit check was required. I’ve had multiple (six) deposit accounts as well as investments with this very large nation wide bank for 40+ years, also a mortgage.
                Didn’t matter, was a requirement.

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              3. Librarian of Things*

                We had a 16-year-old employee who needed an account for direct deposit (the only way to get paid here) but who was concerned that their parent would take their earnings if they had access to the account. I called around and found that the credit union we use would open a deposit account for them without a parental co-signer and allow them to have a debit card attached to the account.

                They would not open a checking account without the parent because checks are essentially a form of loan. You’re spending money that may or may not be in your account and there’s a delay in the vendor finding out which. The credit union wasn’t interested in taking on the risk or hassle of covering or denying payment of checks for a minor. The debit card, on the other hand, is spending only money actually available to cover the cost, so they would do that.

                So, I can see a bank or credit union taking a similar position based on someone’s credit history, and saying no to checking but yes to savings. Most are more likely, even, to take a risk if you’ve got direct deposit set up.

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            3. Names are Hard*

              Credit unions do run credit checks. Banks have a different system that they use which checks if you have bad account history (ie, have just abandoned an account with a negative balance).

              Source: have worked for both, but realize these might not be universal

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        3. Not counter cultural*

          The guy mentioned in the OP appears to have tin foil hat reasons for not wanting direct deposit, from how my friend has described him. She said he almost gives off Unabomber vibes.

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            1. PurpleShark*

              Wage garnishing occurred to me as well. Although I am not certain if this happens through the employer or the bank so I did not mention it.

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              1. Bike Walk Bake Books*

                It’s through the employer so yes, that could be a possibility, or some other legal action that resulted in a wage garnishment order.

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                2. Librarian of Things*

                  Long ago and long ago, I was a court clerk overseeing garnishments. The court doesn’t care how the employer pays their employees. It could be direct deposit, debit card, paper check, cash, or cowrie shells. As long as the employer withholds the ordered amount first, they can pay their employee how they want.

              2. Names are Hard*

                It’s through the employer and it won’t matter whether he has direct deposit or a paper check. As soon as whoever finds out about the new employer and has the court send the documents to the employer, withholding starts and the employer sends the money to the court.

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      2. Weaponized Pumpkin*

        I am fine with DD, but I do understand refusing pay cards. I conducted a market research project for MoneyNetwork, the biggest one, and they have WAY too many glitches for my peace of mind — money mysteriously disappearing, malfunctioning app, accounts being locked for no reason, and above all terrible customer service. (Obviously most people don’t have those experiences, but they are common.) My state uses MN and when I was receiving unemployment I made them mail me paper instead because of that.

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    9. Lizabeth*

      My other half gets paper checks. The thinking by the owner is it forces people to come into the office once a week.

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      1. NotRealAnonForThis*

        At an OldJob, we simply couldn’t get DD. It was all paper checks.

        Seemed odd, til I realized that they relied on the float…in order to make payroll (they most often couldn’t cover it if they had to do a lump payment…but since people might wait a day or two…they were fine).

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        1. Bruce*

          The weird thing is that paper checks are subject to all sort of scams, I cringe each time I have to write one now. Maybe a printed corporate check is harder to modify, but I’ve heard of checks being scanned and modified using photo editor software… even with some of the security printing features.

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      2. Observer*

        The thinking by the owner is it forces people to come into the office once a week.

        Technically, that’s not true. Because if people don’t come in the checks generally have to be mailed.

        In any case, your SO should probably be looking for another job. Because that sounds like Bad Management 101.

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    10. Rex Libris*

      We provide yubikeys. Paychecks are direct deposit only, but I don’t know how hardcore we’d be about that if someone had a reasonably legitimate sounding argument for needing a paper check (beyond just being fashionably retro, I mean.)

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    11. Beth**

      I live in the UK. Paper pay cheques are just not a thing here and haven’t been for decades. Direct deposit is the only option.

      For authentication, my employer would not generally allow us to use personal phones for something like that anyway. Everyone either has a work-supplied phone if needed for other purposes or a cheap-o authenticator token that can’t be used for anything else.

      There was an option at one point to do something with Microsoft authenticator and your personal phone, but it looked like it would be a pain in the backside to deal with if you lost your phone or just upgraded, so I opted out.

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      1. UKDancer*

        Same. I mean the company pays you into your account. I’ve not worked anywhere that has done paper cheques. Even when I was working retail and catering jobs in the 1990s and 2000s you were paid into your bank account. It was non-negotiable.

        I’ve always had a work issued phone and prefer that. I like to keep my work and personal stuff separate.

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      2. EllenD*

        UK too and this is my experience. I’ve been working 40 plus years and businesses then were moving everyone to direct deposits in bank account. I worked in shops in late 70s and there was a small bonus if you agreed to a 4 or 5 weekly direct deposit instead of weekly cash in one chain (they paid you 4 weeks in arrears and 1 week in advance, when there was going to be a 5-week gap between payments). Frankly, after a few months, I wanted to get money in the bank account, rather than having to go and deposit it. Nowadays, I don’t think anyone much under 30 uses cash, or would know how to use cheques or deposit them.

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    12. Fly on the Wall*

      We offer direct deposit or debit card here, no paper checks. I used to dislike having to use my cell phone but I have also had to carry 2 which is more annoying IMO. But not sure what they would do if they did not have one. We have some things that require the ability to send a text, we did not want the authentication to go to someone’s cell phone, what happens if they are let go (which happened) but the sites simply will not allow anything else. I think it that case they would need to provide something company owned to do it.

      We do require hourly office people to use our app for clocking in and out, a computer doesn’t work as the app is location based. Our floor employees thought have access to an onsite punch system.

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    13. RagingADHD*

      My company allows MFA through a voice call to a cell or landline number, so as long as you have your laptop and a phone, you can authenticate. But they would not issue paper checks, I don’t think.

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    14. Jay (no, the other one)*

      I work for a hospice and need 2FA for a variety of things including prescribing controlled substances. The 2FA app is on my personal phone only because I didn’t have a work phone yet when they enrolled me in the prescribing program. I am not allowed to have any other work content on my own phone, which is perfectly fine with me. I get the payroll thing – can’t redo a whole system for one person – but they should supply the 2FA device.

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      1. Observer*

        but they should supply the 2FA device.

        100%!!!

        I get that companies want to save money. But you have to be willing to provide the necessary equipment.

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    15. Pay no attention...*

      I think being able and willing to login to work on a personal device is a reasonable ask — they aren’t using the phone to “work” anymore than I would be working if I used my phone to call in sick. It’s about the same level as requiring staff to get to work and wear work-appropriate clothing. Employers don’t reimburse for clothing, they don’t pay a portion of my car payment/gas/maintenance or public transport, and for just logging in they wouldn’t need to pay for a special phone. IMO.

      For me, paper paycheck for a single person is bananapants crazy but maybe that’s because decades ago I worked for a printing company that printed the blank cheques and know the security features that go into paper paychecks (magnetic ink, micro printing, sequential numbering, etc.) — is this dude thinking someone is whipping out a little checkbook or printing them on a Xerox machine? That’s not how that works. Let him quit over it.

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      1. 2FA options*

        In many cases it gives the employer the right to delete everything off your phone and if the company is ever sued, all of the contents of your phone would be discoverable for legal proceedings. It’s a terrible idea.

        Also, as a separate issue, there are lots of places where you don’t get reliable cell service, especially in very rural or very urban areas, so having a cell phone as the only authentication option is problematic.

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        1. amoeba*

          What, just the fact that you use an Authenticator on said phone? I mean, IANAL but that sounds wrong.
          We are, in fact, expressly forbidden from having any company data on the phone, I can’t log in to our webmail portal with it or anything, and I’m in an industry that’s pretty paranoid with data security. But MS Authenticator on a personal device is completely normal here…

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          1. Flash*

            I work for a bank, and yes, the T&Cs of the company’s proprietary authenticator app inclide the right to wipe your phone. I have a yubikey because it’s typical for my role to have to MFA multiple times a day.

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            1. Not counter cultural*

              “Company’s proprietary” are the key words in your situation. I daresay most folks aren’t working places that have a company proprietary authenticator apps.

              Using Google or MS Authenticator doesn’t give a company the ability to wipe an employee’s personal phone.

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            2. Observer*

              yes, the T&Cs of the company’s proprietary authenticator app inclide the right to wipe your phone

              Yeah, but that’s very much the outlier. If you are using any of the standard 2FA apps (MS, Google, Authy, etc.) etc, then there is *no* link between your employer and the data on your phone.

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          2. Pay no attention...*

            Same. Using Google or MS Authenticator wouldn’t give my employer any ability to wipe my phone. There is an app called MS Intune Company Portal that has that feature — but that’s for if I want to have my work Outlook and Teams accounts on my phone.

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          3. sb51*

            Yeah, I use our MFAs “text me a number” because I refuse to allow an authenticator on my phone tied to the company; I don’t think having it text a number opens me up to the same issues. (We can use yubikeys but have to buy them ourselves; if they stop allowing texts I’ll buy one.)

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            1. fhqwhgads*

              Having it text you a number opens you up to other issues though. Texts are easily intercepted. Authenticator apps for MFA are much more secure. But it depends on if your concern is “is my MFA secure” vs “is anything on my phone tied to my company”.
              Personally, ignoring propriety authenticator apps, using ms authenticator on my personal phone – which has tokens for both work apps and personal apps linked to it, to me, is equivalent to having office keys on my personal keyring. Keys to different doors sharing space is not the same thing as work email or applications on my device.

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        2. Observer*

          In many cases it gives the employer the right to delete everything off your phone and if the company is ever sued, all of the contents of your phone would be discoverable for legal proceedings.

          I don’t think it’s true. Doing 2FA with your personal phone is not the same as any other type of thing, such as email. *That* is work product and makes your phone “discoverable” etc.

          2FA apps don’t actually have any real link to your work information. Rather, it’s like the equivalent of showing your work ID to the guard, or using a card to get into the building.

          Having said that, I agree that requiring people to use their personal phone for 2FA is a really bad idea. The issue of coverage is valid, but also not the only issue.

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      2. Flor*

        Thing is, they don’t need to pay for a special phone just for 2FA; other options, like Yubikey, exist and are much cheaper than a smartphone. If someone already has a smartphone then, sure, it’s not unreasonable to ask them to use their personal device with an authenticator app, but I do think it’s excessive to ask them to spend hundreds to buy a phone when the company could pay $80 for a Yubikey.

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    16. Irish Teacher.*

      Direct deposit is the only way I can be paid. I think that is fairly normal.

      Lack of a smartphone wouldn’t matter in any way. The Department of Education don’t even know what kind of phone I have and I don’t think my principal does either.

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    17. Tippy*

      We will do paper checks if they request it, either mailed to their home (or whatever they designate) or to be picked up in office, but that latter takes longer.

      For authentication, only certain departments have it/need it and almost everyone uses their personal phone. A few people have company issued phones but it’s considered part of their compensation package so they have to think of that, honestly most of us don’t want to carry around 2 phones so it’s not a big issue.

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      1. Lisa Simpson*

        In the US, paper checks are required by law in certain states. I remember when I worked in CA, even though I had direct deposit, the law was that I be paid my final paycheck in paper within something like 24 or 48 hours of my last day of work.

        This ended up being ridiculous because my “last day of work” started early and thus ended at 1 pm. I had to sit around for two or three hours waiting for the courier to bring my paper paycheck, which I then couldn’t deposit in my bank until we opened a new bank account in our new city, because I’d already shipped my car ahead and couldn’t reasonably get to a bank branch any other way. I was like, is there ANYTHING I can sign to waive the paper check and get direct deposit, this is wildly inconvenient, and they said no, it’s state law.

        Reply ↓
        1. Tippy*

          My company is in pretty much every state and probably most do DD and yeah they’d probably say the same thing with a final check, since they all come from the home office regardless of whatever state you work in.

          Reply ↓
        2. fhqwhgads*

          This is not currently true in California. California law does required you be paid your last paycheck on your last day (as long as you gave at least 72 hrs notice), but it doesn’t have to be a paper check if you’re normally paid by direct deposit. If you normally get physical checks, they give you one. If you normally get DD, it has to be deposited on the day. They can only mail it if you authortize them to do so.
          If you didn’t give 72 hrs notice, then they have 72 hours to pay you your last pay.
          Either it’s changed since you were here, or they misrepresented it to you. I’ve known some employers who won’t do a DD other than the normal payday. So due to their own processes the only way to comply with the law is to give you a paper check on your last day. But the compliance there is about the date they pay you, not the method.

          Reply ↓
    18. Chirpy*

      Even retail requires a smartphone for login authentication now. I think my work does a type of debit card if you can’t do direct deposit.

      I’m not sure how you’d get into the payroll system if you didn’t have a personal phone – it has to send a text or email to authenticate, and the store computers can’t access outside emails. I don’t think the managers would want to link their personal accounts to an employee’s, which is the only workaround I can think of.

      Reply ↓
        1. Chirpy*

          Depends on the system, then. I can’t access my work’s payroll system from home – can only be done in the store, even though theoretically the system they use could be set up for remote login. I still need a personal phone to login while I’m at work.

          Reply ↓
    19. basil and thyme*

      I’m *that* guy when it comes to verification. Windows has a verifier app on my computer, and when I need 2FA, I open it (enter its password) and type in the appropriate 6 digit number. Direct deposit I’ll do, however.

      Reply ↓
    20. CubeFarmer*

      Buy the guy a smartphone.

      My organization has us using our personal smartphones for stuff like this and I don’t love it. I love even less the idea of needing to carry around two phones, so I use my own phone. I would prefer some kind of reimbursement for the use of my phone and laptop.

      Reply ↓
      2. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

        I’m curious whether someone who doesn’t have a flip phone and won’t accept direct deposit or a prepaid card would even accept a work cell phone. This sounds like someone who belongs in the Hills to Die On post from yesterday.

        Reply ↓
        1. Wendy Darling*

          Back in the Day before everyone had a smartphone we just had little keychain fobs with a watch battery that generated the 2FA numeric code and showed it to you when you pressed a button. You can still get them. They’re $15ish. Feitian seems to be the major manufacturer nowadays.

          Depending on what service they’re using for 2FA on the back end, a lot of services will do an automated voice call to a number you specify that actually reads off a number. You could get that on a land line, even.

          Reply ↓
          1. Wendy Darling*

            tbh the switch to 2FA via app instead of physical hardware is because it’s both cheaper for the company and easier for the user — if you already have a smartphone you’re carrying everywhere anyway you might as well just install a very small app with the same functionality. It doesn’t require any special permissions or even use any data, it’s just hanging out generating numbers in software instead of hardware.

            I think the aspect people who are concerned about having a “work app” on their personal phone are missing is that these apps don’t communicate with the thing you’re logging into in any way — it just does some math to show you a number. The thing you’re logging into has done the same math. You’re typing in the number to indicate that both of them got the same answer.

            Reply ↓
    21. Clisby*

      It’s hard to imagine a company issuing paper paychecks these days. I’m also not sure why that would be preferable from the employee’s point of view. That would require him to go to a bank, or at least an ATM, to deposit the check. Direct deposit lets him skip that step and only go to bank/ATM when he actually wants cash. Employee: 0. Company: 1.

      If the company is going to require a 2FA for work reasons, it’s on them to provide the necessary equipment. Employee: 1. Company: 0.

      It’s a tie.

      Reply ↓
      1. Clisby*

        Adding … I might write 6-10 checks a year. At least I remember how (Before retirement I worked entirely remotely for 17-18 years, so I generally was the contact person for building contractors, plumbers, electricians, etc., and still write the odd check as a wedding present for younger family members). I don’t think my husband has written a check in at least 20 years.

        As recently as a few years ago, I was seeing online advice to parents of college students (at the time, my son was still in college) on what they should have taught their children. One was to be sure they knew how to balance a checkbook. I asked my now-28-year-old daughter, who paused, thought, and said, “I don’t remember ever writing a check.”

        Reply ↓
        1. Wendy Darling*

          I opened my account at my current bank in 2008 and they gave me a box of checks.

          I’m still working my way through that box of checks 17 years later. I am starting to run low, but it’s because we’ve been having a lot of work done on our house and most of those people prefer payment via check.

          Reply ↓
      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        If he had a smart phone he could deposit the check on the bank’s app but…
        ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

        Reply ↓
        1. Clisby*

          Yeah, that would work if his main concern is that he doesn’t want his workplace to know his bank acct #, but it sounds like he doesn’t have a smart phone. (Of course, he could be making that up.)

          Reply ↓
    22. Strive to Excel*

      I’m curious – is this an office job involving computer work? Has he been OK with that? Because I can get not having a smartphone/not wanting to use a personal device for log-ons. But is he tech resistant? Or just resistant to his workplace having info about him?

      Otherwise – our company has a lot of regular seasonal international workers who prefer paper paychecks over direct deposit. Actually, I think they’d prefer cash, but that’s not doable for us. We just do paper paychecks. It works better for them, and it’s much less of a logistical nightmare for us than trying to get 20+ ESL people enrolled in direct deposit when they may or may not have a bank account at all.

      Reply ↓
      1. Not counter cultural*

        Office job with computer. From what I’m told, guy has a computer and internet at home. But he doesn’t like always being reachable, thinks cell phones of any type are a way for the authorities to track you, etc. Sorta tin foil hat stuff. I think the direct deposit thing is related. Doesn’t want anyone mucking around with his bank account or similar. I’ve known others like that before and this was the reasoning they gave.

        Reply ↓
        1. Pentapus*

          I mean, you can track someone’s whereabouts if they have a cell phone. whether or not it’s reasonable to worry about is different, but the main point is not wrong.

          Reply ↓
        2. WellRed*

          With the increase in cyberattacks and data leaks, he’s not totally off the wall to keep his banking information and access locked down.

          Reply ↓
      2. Nightengale*

        My phone is a flip phone because I have major accessibility issues with touch screens. I can tap on large buttons but anything else, I need a keyboard or it isn’t going to happen. Computer are much more accessible for me and I was an early adopter of typing because I find handwriting so difficult. So I resist things requiring smartphones but I am not tech resistant.

        I have to use a work provided smartphone for authentication. They would not consider a fob device. The smartphone works with my external bluetooth keyboard. … sometimes.

        Reply ↓
    23. BlueberryGirl*

      I am firmly of the opinion that if my employer wants me to use my personal phone for anything work related, than they need to pay for it. Otherwise, they can get me a yubikey. So, I’m with him on that one. In fact, I demanded one from my employer.

      And we can issue paper checks, so if that’s what he wants, that can be done.

      Of course, I’m also in Alaska and I know several people who refuse to own cellphones at all and don’t trust banks, so this guy doesn’t seem so out of touch to me. He just sounds like a few of my coworkers.

      Reply ↓
      1. Clisby*

        But if they don’t trust banks, what are they doing with their paper checks? I’m 71, and my very earliest jobs did pay with paper checks, but I had to go to a bank to cash/deposit them.

        Reply ↓
        1. BlueberryGirl*

          You know, I’ve never asked, because I’ve learned not to ask about banks with some of them. Otherwise, you get to hear all about the conspiracy and I just don’t have time for that.

          Reply ↓
      2. Rainy*

        Same. I don’t install Slack/Teams, work email, nothing like that on my personal phone and that includes 2FA apps. An important part of work/life balance for me is separation, and if work applications are on my personal phone, I don’t have separation. I also don’t think it’s my employer’s business where I go or what I do on my off time, so work applications that track my location are a hard pass.

        Reply ↓
        1. Observer*

          2FA apps cannot track your whereabouts. And even if they could, that’s not data that your employer would have access to if they are using the commercially available stuff.

          Reply ↓
    24. I'm A Little Teapot*

      My company – the cell phone would probably be ok for low level staff, but it would cause problems. Paper checks – probably be fine, though definitely would get a raised eyebrow.

      Reply ↓
    25. Always Tired*

      I work for a construction company. I have several dudes with like, nokias, and one it took about 2 months for him to get a bank account for direct deposit. He had to swing by the office every Friday for his check (construction often pays weekly in the US). We are a smaller company so we do more things by hand than a larger org would. The benefit there is when a local credit union had a ransomware attack, we were able to internally ID employees whose deposit went to that bank (via checking routing numbers) and issuing paper checks that week, so they could be cashed or deposited at another institution .

      I wouldn’t want to do it permanently because it is more work, but it isn’t so much more work that we would refuse. But I would also point out that if he’s trying to get around some required withholding, the taxes will alert the government of your new employer, and HR will still action on the withholding order that arrives.

      On the phone front, I agree with others that it is a bit cheap/rude to require employees to use personal devices for required work programs, but my company gives everyone a $50/month phone allowance to be put towards that. So we are paying for the minutes/data we expect you to use. If one of the nokia guys were promoted to the point of needing software access, part of that discussion would be that they need the kind of device that allows them to set up MFA, and we are paying them $50/month to make sure they have it. The flip side is they are on dumb phones because they have little to no technology literacy, so they are missing the skills for the roles that would require a smart phone anyway.

      Reply ↓
    26. Rainy*

      I’m not sure about my new state, but my last state couldn’t pay via paper check. Everything had to be direct deposit, and if you didn’t have a bank account on file they’d put it on one of those pay cards.

      I absolutely won’t put the 2FA apps on my phone, but there’s usually an option to text a code if you tell the setup widget that you don’t have a smartphone. If there weren’t I’d have had to get a fob.

      Reply ↓
    27. Now a senior*

      Back in 1978 the company I worked for was located in a building owned by a bank. We were required to open an account at that bank if we wanted to be paid and it was direct deposit. Luckily the account also came with a credit card, which was great for a person just out of college. It’s hard to believe that 45 years later someone still wants a paper check. (Not that I don’t believe it, just that – – come one people, it is OK to use technology)

      Reply ↓
    28. NotmyUsualName*

      We would provide a yubikey and the employee has to go to AP to get his paycheck however it is almost a week later than direct deposit.

      Reply ↓
    29. fhqwhgads*

      We’d give him a yubikey no problem. I’m pretty sure paper checks are still an option, but they’re mailed, and not the default. So he’d just have the check that box on his new hire paperwork.
      That said, we’re a software company so if he had an overall beef with technology, he’d probably not be a great cultural fit. But if it were more like he wanted complete separation of his personal device from work – and thus didn’t want an authenticator app on his phone (or didn’t have a phone capable of running one) – as long as he followed all our security practices, physical token is fine.
      I AM side-eyeing the IT who wanted someone who was not the employee to serve as the source of MFA since that is SO not how that works.

      Reply ↓
      1. Observer*

        I AM side-eyeing the IT who wanted someone who was not the employee to serve as the source of MFA since that is SO not how that works.

        Oh yes! To the point that I would really be questioning their fitness for the job, tbh.

        Reply ↓
  2. Hello there!*

    I know this is a silly question to ask given my project. I’m looking to start a business (this is years in not just on a whim). I need someone I can throw questions to for general business questions; inventory ideas, tax inquiries; legal questions; marketing; someone’s brain I can pick; licenses needed. I have an accountant and a lawyer but could use a mentor type person. I’m so worried about messing something up or filing the wrong paperwork. I’m good at research and am told I have a solid plan.

    Reply ↓
    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Have you contacted the SBA? What about business schools at nearby universities – seminars, workshops, etc?

      Reply ↓
      1. Glenda*

        In some communities in the US, SCORE — the Service Corps of Retired Executives — might have someone who could mentor you.

        Reply ↓
    2. Funko Pops Day*

      You might see if your community has any “entrepreneurs’ center” or “small business development center” kinds of resources/programs. My employer has worked with one of these for a number of programs that they offer that have supported some specific kinds of mentorship/training that we needed.

      Reply ↓
        1. Office Plant Queen*

          A lot of places that call themselves an incubator are really geared toward startups, where the default goal is to obtain venture capital and grow fast. It’s a pretty specific type of business, so it may not be the best option if someone is looking to build a business that will provide them steady, long-term work. Like I wouldn’t necessarily recommend someone go to an incubator if they wanted to start a bakery, salon, auto shop, or some other business that’s inherently local

          Reply ↓
    3. Tio*

      I appreciate the anxiety, but please realize this is a HUGE timesink to ask of someone you’re not paying. If anyone does volunteer (I kinda think they won’t, but some people like a project) please figure out some kind o way to pay them. I think when people think of this, they think it will be “just a few quick questions” and not realize you end up chewing through hours and hours of a person’s time. A good friend of mine was trying to help someone set up a theater group non profit out o the kindness of his heart and it is ruining his relationship with this person because it’s so much to ask.

      Reply ↓
        1. Tio*

          Oh, no worries! You said mentor type person, which is not usually something you pay people for, so I assumed it would be unpaid.

          For finding a paid person like this, I too recommend a small business group or whatever kind of industry organizations your industry has to meet some people, and let people there know what you’re looking for (and that you’re paying!) Most industry groups are great places to both find meetings with people who can help and resources like that. They probably have a repository of contacts and also training materials somewhere too!

          Reply ↓
    4. Bookworm*

      You might check with your local public library (mine has classes and resources for small businesses) or community college.

      Reply ↓
    5. ErinB*

      In terms of paperwork/filing, I’d recommend an attorney who specializes in small businesses. The cost of their time is worth it to be sure that you’re following the rules and getting it “right” the first time.

      For many of the other things – marketing, bouncing ideas off someone, etc. – look for a start up “incubator” or “hub” in your city. There are several around me that have tons of support, including free seminars on certain topics, roundtable discussions, networking events where you can talk to fellow entrepreneurs, etc. Many of them will also be able to connect you with reasonably-priced services like accountants or attorneys.

      Reply ↓
    6. Data Nerd*

      Can you check your state’s Small Business Administration? Most of their info is about funding and how to write a business plan, but a lot of states have a mentorship program as well. Also, if you have an active Chamber of Commerce in your area, they should have some type of mentorship program for new business owners, even if it’s just something like “hey, Harvey over there started his Widgits business a couple years ago, maybe he has some advice on your inventory.”

      Reply ↓
    8. ThatGirl*

      Another small business owner or a local chamber of commerce, maybe.

      But the problem I see is that these are questions for a wide variety of people – an accountant, a lawyer, a marketer. You say you have an accountant and lawyer, so that’s good. A freelance marketer you could put on retainer, maybe.

      Reply ↓
    9. Ama*

      Hi! Person who started her own business here. I ended up joining a few professional groups in my particular niche early on (I spent a couple of years running it as a side gig before going full time last year) and they had a lot of resources and programming around a lot of this stuff (for example they had a lawyer that specialized in our area come in to talk in general about how to protect your business legally) Two of the groups also have private chat servers so you can network and ask for advice from the group. It definitely helped me develop my business much faster than if I had done it on my own – and might be a good way to find someone who would be willing to help you in the way you are thinking.

      But I also second touching base with the SBA in your area because they will have area specific advice (sales tax, permits needed, etc.)

      Reply ↓
    10. AVP*

      My husband ended up providing these services as a marketing guy / content / designer. You just need to find someone you trust and start paying them hourly for consulting calls! Like any coaching, hiring the right person is key and you’ll need to make sure you get along personally and like their ideas. And eventually, you’ll hire a #2 who does a lot of what you suggested.

      The local SBA office or any local business incubator program might help, too. Just don’t listen to anyone on legal q’s except your lawyer, and the same for tax questions from your CPA.

      Reply ↓
    11. Mouse named Anon*

      Do you identify as female? There maybe local Woman’s Small Business groups in your area as a resource.

      Reply ↓
    12. Hillary*

      I’m coming up on two years into my startup journey.

      Folks have already mentioned SCORE can be a good resource, especially their mentor program. Your city/county/region may have entrepreneurship/business development groups – where i live the county has programs plus there are regional foundations across the state. There are also affinity groups that support specific groups – we have one for women, one for people of color, I think one for immigrants, one for software startups, one for med device startups, and so many more.

      I’ve found networking groups to be very helpful. I found a couple groups on LinkedIn that do happy hours once a month, people I’ve met at those groups have pointed me to other groups/connections. Someone I met Monday told me about a mentorship program that I hadn’t heard about before, I’m going to apply. In general people like helping as long as the ask is a reasonably small time commitment. If you’re entering a licensed field there’s probably an owners networking group out there.

      Mistakes are part of running a business and things are always going to go wrong. In general don’t sweat the paperwork. If you’re conscientious enough to worry about getting it wrong you’ll be fine.

      Reply ↓
  3. Carpe Email*

    I have to do a lot of email outreach for my new role, often to new contacts, and I find myself expending a LOT of time reading (and re-re-rereading) the drafts to make sure I didn’t accidentally put the wrong company name, misspell the person’s name, copy the wrong person, the wording is just right, etc. It’s burning way too much of my energy and causing stress, but neither do I want to be making sloppy errors — I need to find a happy medium! Any tips??

    Reply ↓
      2. Lily C*

        Reading a draft out loud, including the spaces and punctuation, really does help. Maybe not too loud, though, if one is in a shared space.

        Reply ↓
    3. Angstrom*

      Are you copying and then editing the same message, and forgetting to make some of the changes?
      If so, starting with templates with blank fields would be a good step.

      Reply ↓
      1. Beth*

        I put the fields I need to fill in in bold/highlighted in yellow/red-colored text in my templates, so it’s impossible to miss them. It helps.

        But also, OP, how many fields need to be customized in your templates? Can you replace any of them with more generic language? When you do a lot of emailing, having templates that need minimal editing is a huge part of making it sustainable. Remember that the people you’re sending this to will only see it once–as long as it covers the information they need and sounds friendly, they probably won’t question whether you’re sending the same email to other people.

        Reply ↓
    4. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

      Can you create templates? Even if it’s for just part of the message. That way, you just write it carefully once, then copy it into your e-mail. If you don’t want to send the exact same thing to everyone, you could do a couple versions so you can change it up. Or have different versions for different types of contacts you’re reaching out to.

      Reply ↓
    5. TheGirlintheAfternoon*

      Mail merge can still help with this, on a really big scale. If it’s a smaller number but most of the emails are the same, try creating an email signature you can customize – something like:

      Dear NAME, I’m Celestina Warbleworth, reaching out to NAME OF BUSINESS to inquire about…

      Reply ↓
      1. MJ*

        I do this but instead of “NAME OF BUSINESS” I put “______” in the email signature wherever I need to fill in info. It’s much easier to spot where I’ve missed putting something if I get interrupted midway through writing the email (a frequent occurrence).

        Reply ↓
        1. PegS*

          I do that but also highlight that area in the template or put it in red text, which makes it even harder to blip past.

          Reply ↓
          1. Dasein9 (he/him)*

            I do that but also make sure I keep the highlighting on my first draft, which makes it easier to double-check.

            Reply ↓
    6. Office Plant Queen*

      Definitely set up email templates! You can put in spots where you change out the particulars and make them stand out in whatever way works best for you – highlighting or changing the color of the text, writing in caps, a series of underscores, etc. This should reduce the mental burden of getting the wording right and making sure that you have all the details filled in.

      As for making sure you have the right details, I would recommend a spreadsheet or something like that, assuming you’ve got some kind of list each day of people to email. This probably isn’t time efficient if you can’t do this work in batches, though. But assuming you can, in one tab, you could have a table with the details – a column each for the company name, the main contact person and their email address, people you need to CC, type of email that needs to be sent, etc. In another tab, use lookups for all of that information based on a column that will have a unique value. The goal of the second tab is to show you all the information for one email you need to send, and only information for that one email. Then copy and paste into your email template as needed!

      Reply ↓
    7. HowDoesSheDoItAll?*

      this won’t help with misspelling names, but ChatGPT can proofread text for you.

      Also, I’m not sure how often you work on emails, but is there anyway you can set aside an hour or so a day just to write and edit your emails, so it doesn’t feel like you are working on them all day. Email is exhausting, but setting aside time for it can help. That, and doing whatever you can to stop the email back and forth before it happens.

      Reply ↓
    8. Bike Walk Bake Books*

      Would it be less stressful to work in a Word doc? Suggestions about templates, highlighter on key fields, etc. that others shared are great. In a Word doc you don’t have the potential to accidentally send something before it’s ready, which may be part of the subliminal stress, and you’re reading in a different screen environment. That helps me. Things get by me in an email that I’d never miss in a document, and I worked as a professional copy editor in the past.

      Another email-specific thing if cc’ing the wrong person is a burning issue: You may want to delete any autofill addresses that Outlook suggests. When it pops up a list of names, hit the X next to each one. This means that each and every time you’d have to type in or copy/paste the address, but at least for a while that may help decrease that concern about cc’ing the wrong people. Which happens! To all of us! A quick “following up to add Bill X to this thread” (and silently deleting Bill Y) reply is quickly forgotten by most people.

      (Yes, I’ve reread this comment before hitting Submit and I definitely feel your pain.)

      Reply ↓
      1. Ally McBeal*

        When I worked in financial services and took on responsibility for sending research reports out to clients, I was taught that the VERY last thing you ever put in an email is the recipients. All the content, all the scheduling logistics, everything else has to be finalized before you start adding email addresses. It has served me very well throughout the rest of my career; even if I’m replying to an email, if my reply is complex or long, I will remove the recipients and add them back when I’m ready to send.

        Reply ↓
      2. Shipbuilding Techniques*

        That is a really good point about the possible psychological benefit of drafting emails in a different platform. On work-at-home days, the threat of cat feet hitting send prematurely is real. As well as my own clumsiness at all times.

        Reply ↓
    9. Lady Alys*

      For things you are worried about misspelling, set up some text expansions with hotkeys (you can use auto-correct inside of your email app, or get a separate app like Beeftext or TextExpander). I haven’t actually typed my own email address in years.

      Reply ↓
  4. BigLawEx*

    Hl-aroo! I’ve always wanted to ask if you have a photographic memory.

    How do you remember so many relevant links? If you’re around, first I’d like to thank you for your kindness in helping so many of the community with your amazing insights and links.

    Reply ↓
    1. Hlao-roo*

      No, I don’t have a photographic memory. I probably have a slightly above average memory? But I read a fair portion of the AAM archives during 2020/2021 and then played around with the in-site search bar a lot, so I have a pretty good sense of how it works and can usually find a past letter within a few minutes.

      I started playing around with the search because there would be call-backs referenced in the comments from before I started reading. Sometimes people would post links or post titles, and sometimes they wouldn’t, so I started hunting down the letters so I could get the reference. Then I realized I could post the links/titles and save others the trouble of searching. Probably the only time I’ve lived up to those “be the change you want to see in the world” motivational posters :)

      Reply ↓
      1. BigLawEx*

        OMG I spelled your ‘name’ wrong but I was looking for the answer to this question and someone had called you out that way.

        Thanks so much for what you do, ‘being the change,’ and satisfying this ever niggling curiosity in my brain.

        Reply ↓
    2. allx*

      endorsing this comments. Hlao-roo, your super-timely linking skills are awesome. Thank you from another reader who finds the links helpful.
      (also, in my brain I pronounce your name hill-a-roo, and had to look at the spelling twice after biglawex’s second comment).

      Reply ↓
      1. Hlao-roo*

        Ha, I took the name from a Watership Down character and I’ve never heard it pronounced out loud. I think of it as similar to “how” but with an “l” sound, but your guess is as good as mine ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

        Reply ↓
        1. Wordnerd*

          Jumping in to thank Hlao-roo for their amazing linkage skills and also their username. WD is my favorite book, and Hlao-roo (Pipkin) is easily a top character for me. It gives me such a smile every time I see it <3

          Reply ↓
        3. Rekha3.14*

          Adding in that I say how with an L as well. I’m reading Watership Down to my 9yo right now and we are both very much enjoying it (I’ve owned a copy since undergraduate days 2+ decades ago), so it was very coincidental timing to see the names used here). I tend to stumble over the entirety of Thethuthennang (we call her Thuthu lol). There was another doe I just could not pronounce….

          I did name a D&D character Thayli recently, and used the name in an online forum for a niche interest nigh on 15-20 years ago… (I stumble over that first L out loud).

          Reply ↓
  5. Name me!*

    Wondering if anyone in the AAM universe has any good advice for a name change (not connected to any other identification changes).

    I’ve always hated my given name. It doesn’t suit me and as a bonus, I hate the diminutive options even more. When I was younger, I lived on the opposite coast for a time and went by a completely different name. It was great! Unfortunately, when I eventually returned to my hometown, my family and friends refused to accept my “new” name and I didn’t feel secure enough to push back at the time. So I reluctantly re-assumed my given name.

    Now I’m almost 40, well established in both my career and my life, and the prospect of changing my name feels super daunting. I started a new job less than a year ago, which obviously would have been the ideal time to start going by a new name – if I had one in mind! But a) I’ve published a book under my given name, b) I have a different surname now that doesn’t work as well with the name I gave myself when I was younger, c) I’m still not sure my family would go along with it, and d) I just kind of worry about the overall perception if I change my name at this point in my life! I know it’s silly, but I feel like it makes me seem flighty – especially since I don’t have a name in mind that feels entirely right to me. What if I want to change it again?

    On the other hand, my name bugs me more and more the older I get. It’s starting to sound like a screwdriver in my ear. I really, really, really want a new one. A diminutive version of either my first or middle name would be ideal since that would at least feel a little more natural, but I can’t find one I like.

    Thoughts on any of this?

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    1. Time Zone Confusion*

      I have had no luck changing my entire name, and I haven’t pursued it legally, but it’s been very easy to get people in new groups to call me whatever I want. Especially if it’s a logical nickname or middle name. I agree that applying for a new job would have been the perfect time to go as “Suzie (Stephanie) Watkins” and just roll from there. I have many friends who are now committed to a nickname I don’t like, and seem determined to introduce me to others by that name although I’ve asked them not to – sigh – but I get it, it’s really hard once you get it in your head. It helps to carve out spaces where I don’t have to hear it.

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    2. MsM*

      Figure out what feels like you first. Then tell everyone (yourself included) that you’ve spent nearly 40 years trying to make your given name work for you. You think you’ve given it more than enough of a fair shake, and it’s time to just admit it’s not working and spend the rest of your life with something that will make you happy. Then you can just start going by it in person and updating your professional materials.

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      1. Hlao-roo*

        Yeah, I think finding a name that you like is the first step.

        Once you have a new name, maybe you can talk to the friend(s)/family member(s) you think are most likely to be sympathetic and ask “I’m going by [Felicia] now, not [Jessica]. Can you correct people who call me [Jessica] when I’m not around? I would appreciate your help with this!” Adjust the wording so it fits your style, but the main point is that if you enlist their help with making the change in a way that assumes that of course they will be reasonable and call you by your chosen name, most people will live up to your expectation of them and start calling you [Felicia] and correcting people who still call you [Jessica].

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      2. Honeybadger*

        I had a family member change her first name when she was in her late teens (17-18). She wanted to go by a diminutive of that name. It took a while but we all adapted. Later, she did officially change it and now that she’s older, doesn’t use the diminutive but the full new first name. IMO, it suits her far better than the original. But then, I’m pretty easy going. I had a coworker who changed both first and last names when she was about your age. She went through a divorce and when it came time to decide to return to her birth name or keep her married name, she decided that not only did neither last name suit her any longer but her first name didn’t either. She chose new first and last names. Everyone adapted. I’m sure your family will push back and it’ll be a source of constant correction for years to come but eventually, they will get over it. If they say they can’t remember, they are just being lazy and contrary over a no stakes change. After all, if you are female and you get married then change your last name, they manage to get it right then.

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    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      I think it’s important to accept that your family and friends most likely aren’t going to adopt any new name (I’m assuming this is a “my name is Jessica and I hate being called Jess” situation and not a “my name is Jessica and I’m becoming James” situation). So try to let that part go, and just start using your new name with new people.

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      1. Name me!*

        You’re correct, although sometimes I do slightly resent the fact that people aren’t expected to respect “not Jessica or Jess, I’m actually going by Felicia now” changes the way they are when there’s a gender shift involved.

        Obviously, for anyone coming out as trans/NB, it IS more imperative to use the new name and immediately stop using the dead name. I just wish “I’m going by a different name because my birth name doesn’t suit me” could be taken similarly seriously.

        (I don’t mean I resent YOU for bringing this up – this has matched my experience exactly. But if my kids ever change their names for ANY reason, I would absolutely respect their choice.)

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        1. Clisby*

          My paternal grandfather changed his first name, apparently because he had some beef with the family member he’d been named for. People coped.

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      2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        As someone who’s family at first refused to use my chosen name when I changed it: they can damn well adapt. I pointed out that when I changed my last name upon marriage, nobody had any issues with that, so I expected the same courtesy in this situation too. I only had to return one card sent to my original name marked “name not at this address” before word passed through the family that “nope, she really means it.” Nobody has called me by my original name in fifteen years.

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        1. Peregrine*

          Yes. This is a situation where you set boundaries and hold to them. Correct them every time they say the wrong name. Then tell them when they use the wrong nane you will walk away/leave/hang up. Then do so. They will have tantrums. Let them. Keep holding your boundaries. Either they will learn or you’ll learn how much respect they really have for you.

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          1. MSD*

            It is funny (not really) that if a woman’s changes her last name when she gets married that no one has a problem remembering her new last name. Anyone who keeps “forgetting” a new first name name is full of it.

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            1. Wendy Darling*

              I find that it’s often pretty easy to tell the difference between someone who actually slipped up and someone who “forgot” in order to make a point.

              A friend’s kid recently decided to go by a different name and we all slipped up OCCASIONALLY but it is very clear that everyone is trying, and after a little while you’re just used to it, the same as I got used to a coworker’s new last name to the point that I no longer remember what her old last name was even though it’s only been six months.

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          2. Wendy Darling*

            When I was 3-4 years old I found out that my mother had a name and it wasn’t “Mommy”, and decided I was going to call her by her given name from then on.

            My mom was NOT DOWN and corrected me for like 2 days and then simply ignored me every time I called her by her given name until I gave up. I actually vaguely remember this happening and I think it took a couple weeks, during which I spent a lot of time pissed off, but after that I sorted myself out.

            Since I managed this in preschool I am pretty confident that adults can also get it. :D

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        2. Mad Harry Crewe*

          Yeah, you have to be aggressive about it. You think it’s easier for queer folks because we have a good reason, but I promise it’s not. Your reason is just as good as anybody’s and you deserve to be called by a name that makes you feel good.

          I changed my name at work at near-40. I spent about a year saying “that’s not my name” every few weeks on calls, where coworkers were distracted or moving too fast. They lived, and I’m much happier.

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          1. Rusty Shackelford*

            I’m not saying it’s easier for queer/trans folks. I am, in fact, pretty sure it’s not. I’m just saying that it’s really difficult for people who have called you Jess for 40 years to start calling you Felicia, and if it’s not an issue of them literally rejecting your identity, you might have to lower your expectations. I’ve seen someone in my own life go through something very similar (it was dropping a nickname, not changing their given name) and they decided it wasn’t worth a fight with older family members. I mean, if that’s a hill you want to die on, that’s your choice. Just pointing out it’s likely to be very difficult.

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            1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

              But it isn’t. Unless the older family members are so far gone with dementia that they couldn’t deal with Jess Smith getting married and becoming Jess Jones, then they can also get used to Jess Smith becoming Felicia Smith. And as frequently as this website addresses “you need to call people what they want to be called,” I’m a little weirded out that you’re insisting that it’s ok for people to not do that.

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              1. Name me!*

                I get what Rusty means. I think the AAM commentariat is generally united in the opinion that you should call folks what they want to be called (the responses on this thread bear that out, which makes me happy :)), but the world doesn’t necessarily share that opinion.

                Some people feel really, really strongly about sticking with your birth name unless you have a “good reason,” as I discovered when I tried to change it in my twenties. Some parents, especially.

                I believe my parents would adapt to a new name if it accompanied a gender change, in large part because it wouldn’t make a lot of sense to people to keep referring to their son as [myname] when [myname] is (at least in this country) almost always a female name.

                I’m still not sure they’ll accept a new name for me that I choose just for the hell of it (I think part of it is that they’re a little hurt by how vehemently I despise my name, which I get). Perhaps I’m wrong!

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                1. Ellis Bell*

                  I know people who say that kind of thing: “Oh she’s just being silly about her name, it would be different if it was a gender issue” but then when they are confronted with even more of change, like a queer child, they suddenly forget they need a boys name for someone telling them they’re now a son and it’s all “Oh no this is just a phase, it’s not a real transition, I know my daughter so I told her to stop being dramatic”. It all boils down to not wanting to do something difficult or respect what someone else is saying. I think some people’s first response to a change that is difficult for them to wrap their heads around it, is to convince you that you don’t really want what you say you want. If you agree, or capitulate, they were right! You will have to correct them repeatedly and show that you really do mean what you say. An option might be to viscerally react the way you want to whenever they use the screwdriver name: “Ugh you know I hate that name. Call me Surname, or “You” if you can’t remember my name.”

          2. Name me!*

            Oh, I didn’t mean to imply trans/NB people have it easier! I’m queer myself (though cis) so I have many friends who have gone through this and I get it completely. It’s so much HARDER in so many ways. At least I only hate my name, not my AAB gender!

            It’s just that (in general) I’ve found that people don’t expect a trans person to just stick with a highly gendered name post-transition, whereas people like me have no “good reason” to reject their birth name.

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        3. Elizabeth West*

          My family took a while to get it right when I decided to go by my middle name, but it helped that my sibling married someone with a nickname that would have left us with the exact same monikers. Now she is (my old name) and I’m (diminutive of middle name).

          If I ever got married and wanted to change my last name, I would just do the entire thing at once and drop my first name entirely. If I like my married name, I can just change my pen name to that, I suppose.

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    4. tired beau*

      My partner just changed their name at 35, 3 years into the career they’ll be in for at least the next four or five years, if not longer. It has been basically against their parents disproval and most people just not generally understanding, yet they’ve never been happier. (They changed their entire name, and it took some time with getting the paperwork back, but I’d say it took them maybe three months overall to get every document back under their new name (though, this was before the current administration came into power if you’re in the US). I’d expect a longer turn around at the moment, but I’m not sure how much.) It’s not an impossible feat to go from one name to another and I think the fact that you have previously published material under your current name won’t be too difficult for you in the future, especially if you link your material back to your chosen name on your website or LinkedIn or the like! People have name changes all the time for different reasons, no need to feel cornered because you have your current name on your product.

      On the topic of *picking* a new name; I chose mine, personally, in 2013ish after I watched a standup comedian that had a name that just clicked with me. I think it’s easier if you don’t go out into the world thinking you *have* to find the right name right NOW, but instead you have every right to try on *any* name that sounds like it might feel good and choose to use or not use it. I suggest to not officially update your websites and tell HR about your name change until you feel like it is something you feel like you’ll settle on for a while! Typically, I try on names for a while with my close friends/family until I have a sense of how it feels. It took awhile for my current name to feel right for everyone to use it instead of just my friends, but I’m going to change my name legally this year as well!

      All I really, truly say is that you deserve a name that represents YOU. There is no reason to identify with something that doesn’t belong for you. All the love, my friend.

      Reply ↓
      1. Dogwoodblossom*

        I think this is good advice. I’ve got a friend who is trying out a new name right now in our friend group because they know we’ll honor it. But they haven’t gone public with it yet because they’re just testing it. Although it’s been 6 months so far so it seems like maybe it’s sticking?

        If you’ve got some chill friends have them help you try some names on.

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    5. Rex Libris*

      If you’ve never really publicized your middle name, or don’t have one, you could consider changing/adding a middle name. It would then be an easier and less remarkable leap to just tell people you’ve decided to start going by your middle name. Probably wouldn’t help with family, but might work in the workplace and the rest of the world in general.

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    6. Resident Catholicville, U.S.A.*

      Use your initials? If your name is Llama Red Pajama, go by L.R. Pajama. Tell people you’re going by L.R. Tell them yes, just the letters L.R. and not Llama or Red. Your family and close friends might not be able to make the adjustment, but new people should. And probably some of the older friends/relatives will adopt it, if you just keep it up.

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      1. If I must*

        Yes, I think going by initials can be a good option, especially if you don’t like the diminutives of your name but want some kind of connection to what you have been named.

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    7. Helmac*

      Just commenting to say that I also hate my given name, and the dislike has grown stronger over the years. I’m now over 50, established in my career, and thinking about changing it. No real diminutives, and I wouldn’t want to use my middle name either. It’s a conundrum, but it’s good to know I’m not the only one who feels like this well into middle age!

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        1. Name me!*

          Oh don’t worry, I’m reading and responding as I have time! I’m a big believer in “don’t ask for advice if you don’t intend to listen.”

          And thank you :)

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      2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

        I’m there with you. My name is just a little too long and a little not quite right. And I’m watching people changing for gender reasons and getting a little jealous.
        But what to pick?? It’s like when I try to figure out a tattoo that I think I’ll want for the rest of my life and then give up on the whole plan.

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      3. Mid*

        I have a family friend who legally changed her name at 68 years old! No divorce/death/trauma/gender/reason other than she hated her given name, and didn’t like her middle name or any nicknames for her name, and she decided this new name suited her better. So, she went to the courthouse and changed her name and then sent everyone a card saying her new name was NewName LastName, and that was that. I’m sure plenty of people had opinions about it, but everyone adjusted and she’s much happier now. It’s been over 10 years since she changed her name and I honestly couldn’t tell you her previous name if I tried. I remember her given name was normal, along the lines of Susan or Sarah or something, not even a strange spelling or anything unusual. She just didn’t like her name.

        All this to say, it’s never too late to change your name, and anyone who matters will adjust! If you hate your name, be free of it. And, if a legal change is too daunting, you can just socially change it. (I can think of a Greg who goes by Bud, a Robert who goes by Luke, and a Mary who goes by Lily off the top of my head, from relatives/friends/coworkers.)

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    8. Evvy*

      Having published a book under your given name should not be a problem in changing your name now — lots of authors have 2 or even 3 names they publish under (pen names, different names by genre, etc) ! Your situation is a little different than someone having a pen name, but I think overall people are pretty used to the concept of publishing under multiple different names.

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    9. CubeFarmer*

      If it’s that important to you, figure out what name you want, and leaaaaaaaan into it. Change all your contacts. If people are confused say, “My name was Brunilda but I now prefer Diana” and do not budge.

      Reply ↓
      1. Mad Harry Crewe*

        “My name is Diana now”
        “I go by Diana now”
        “Big news! I changed my name, I’m Diana now” (say this with excitement to people you haven’t seen in a while and wouldn’t expect to know)

        You straight up don’t need to bring your old name into it.

        Much like coming out, changing your name is not a one-and-done. You will be informing and reminding about your name for quite a while (probably shorter if you change it legally – I still have to do the “heck which name did I give the dentist’s office” mental shuffle every few months, because it could plausibly be either).

        You can also start small – start with whatever group feels like the easiest sell and expand from there. I started with friends. After a few years, I told family. After many more years I updated medical and work. I still haven’t done a legal change. Build your skills and confidence before taking on the whole world.

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        1. Another freelancer*

          I second the idea to try the name out on a small scale before doing any legal changes. After a few months you may decide the new name doesn’t quite fit.

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        2. CubeFarmer*

          Well yes, however you say it, there will be a transition period.

          I did this when I changed my surname after I got married.

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    10. Lily Rowan*

      I know someone who is changing his whole name as part of a break from his birth family, so that part doesn’t apply, but I can barely remember what his name used to be. So it’s not necessarily as big a deal for other people as it will be for you!

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      1. Lily Rowan*

        And to Mad Harry Crewe’s point above, I know he started with a group he expected to be open to the idea, which we totally are.

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      2. Wendy Darling*

        A woman I’ve worked with for 2 1/2 years got married around the 2 year point and changed her last name, and I was trying to remember her previous last name the other day and I cannot do it. That information is GONE. My brain apparently simply decided it wasn’t needed and put it in the recycle bin and clicked “empty trash”.

        There was like 2 weeks of “Diana Prince-I-Mean-Miller” while we all absorbed the change but after that? Never comes up unless someone sees her old name on some internal wiki page and is like “who’s that?”

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    11. raised by broadcasters*

      This will sound off-topic at first, but bear with me: when I was decorating my apartment, I didn’t intend to live there for very long, and thought putting holes in walls etc would be a waste of time, because then I’d have to fix all of them. At some point, my partner or a friend pointed out how depressing the place was (correct) and that I could liven things up a bit by putting art on the walls, and I said, yeah, but it’s so much WORK and TIME and blah blah blah, and they hit me with, “The time will pass anyways. Shouldn’t it be enjoyable while it lasts, even if you have to put a little work in?”

      So all that to say: The time will pass anyway. You will get older, and the name will continue to annoy you. Find a name you like (as a writer I am CONSTANTLY on behindthename dot com) and do some trial runs! It’s what you deserve!

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    12. muhbuhbuh*

      Can you make up a name that is a plausible, if unusual, diminutive of your first or middle name? That’s what I go by… my name is essentially a made up nickname for a very common name. There’s at least a few letters in common so people get it if I share my real name. My parents wanted to give me a unique name with the option to have a normal name if I grew up to hate it lol.

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      1. Name me!*

        Funnily enough, that’s exactly what I’m considering! I had never previously thought about a diminutive of either my former or current last names.

        But one that keeps coming up for me is Ilia/Ilya (not sure which yet). If you squint your eyes and cooperate, it could be a diminutive of my original last name. It sounds good with my new last name, it’s pretty but not overly gendered, and it would be kind of nice to go back to my original name in a way, while preserving my new one.

        (I got divorced a couple of years ago, but I like my married surname better, and I still feel a strong connection to that part of my family – including my former spouse – so I’m not too interested in returning to my original name.)

        I was veeeeeeeeery close to using this name this morning with my Starbucks order, lol. Maybe this would be a good one to test drive with close friends.

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        2. Wendy Darling*

          If my local baristas didn’t all know me by name already I’d be so tempted to test-drive random names at coffee shops.

          People forget my name A LOT and I honestly think it’s because it doesn’t suit me very well. I don’t particularly mind my name one way or the other so I wouldn’t change it just because it’s a lot of admin, but if that were magically not the case I might.

          I had like a 2 year period where I’d moved to a different area and everyone I knew there I met through someone I knew online. She introduced me by my internet handle (which was A name but not MY name), and I thought it was funny and didn’t correct anyone, and by the time people found out that wasn’t technically my name it had sort of become my name. No one ever forgot my name then!

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    13. 1,000 Snails in a Lady Skin*

      Just want to say that we had an employee a year in who asked to be referred to by a (non-obvious nickname) and it was a non-issue. Think Sarah asked to now be Sadie. Apparently she was too nervous at first to ask for it.
      We all switched to calling her the preferred name and IT even updated her work email address to be sadie@company

      I also had a coworker who I met when he was named Mark Smith, we worked together for several years and stayed in touch, and then I referred him for a new job at my company and he went by Marty Jones. I definitely did a double take a few times, but never had an issue.

      So just want to reassure that it’s possible you’re over thinking and many many people will adjust to a new name pretty quickly.

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    14. Hyaline*

      Most people I know who ended up changing their names started with “I go by” switches first–and for a few, they didn’t even pursue formal name change. “Going by” the name is enough for them. The advantage to that approach was they started with a few friends or in a new workplace or at bowling league or whatever so were able to give it a trial go and build up–as they grew comfortable being called by the new name, they gained the confidence to begin asking for it in other places. Some of them still go by their old name with family, but it grates them less because it’s become like a pet name that only VERY close people are allowed to use, if that makes sense.

      I would just kind of start approaching this like “when I find a name I want to go by, of course everyone will roll with it” and get that hurdle out of your mind–because the first step to actually doing this is finding a name you like! (I had one friend pick an entirely new name, completely different from her given name, drawing from her family’s ethnic heritage–so maybe broaden your search past “similar to my name” to “meaningful to me”–maybe consider ethnic or national origin, religious tradition, etc.)

      Additions:
      a) Having published several books, I begin to wish I had used a pen name :D So there’s that!
      b) You’re not wedded to that other name, either!
      c) Worry about your family last here–maybe they’ll get it, maybe they’ll never catch on. So? You’ll be going by a name you prefer with everyone else.
      d) Well, yeah, some people will think it’s odd or weird or that you’re being dramatic, but who the heck cares? That’s a them problem. I promise that the vast majority of people in your world will not think twice. You’ve put up with a name you dislike for decades. It’s fair to ditch it.

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    15. An Australian in London*

      (Not my real names)

      Let’s say I was born “Robert” and that’s what was on my birth certificate, but have been called “Bob” since childhood. That BC flowed into a lot of other important IDs that require a BC… I was also “Robert” on my passport, and therefore also for my bank accounts, utility bills, etc. I was able to make it “Bob” in a few places but that only created more trouble for me when I had to reconcile “Bob” vs “Robert”, like using “Robert” IDs to authenticate a “Bob” issue.

      In my early 40s I’d had enough and started changing my name.

      This was a mighty saga and required precise sequencing so that at each step I had just enough ID in both names to change the next ID to the new name. It’s well worth figuring that out in advance because a delay can set everything back weeks and that can be troublesome.

      I was spared issues of changing what people called me, at least, because everyone only knew me as “Bob”, including my family.

      Agree with all the above – find a name you like first. That’s the most important thing. Plan it out in advance. Once you have BC, passport, and DL, everything else is fairly easy. Banks and government departments are usually the only nuisances at that point.

      Connecting previous professional publications to the new name is probably the least difficult part of all this. Wishing you well in your journey!

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    16. RagingADHD*

      I think pen names different from your own name are incredibly normal, and age 40 is well and truly old enough to not be controlled by what your family likes or whether other people think you’re flighty. Clearly you are not being flighty about this, since you have been considering it for, what? Fifteen or twenty years? That’s about as far from flighty as you can get.

      I agree with others that you’re going to have to pick something that feels good before moving on, but once you do, the other aspects don’t seem like major obstacles.

      If your family are decent people who care about you, and you tell them why this matters to you, then they will make an effort (even if imperfectly). If they won’t make the effort, that says everything about them and nothing about you.

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    17. Dasein9 (he/him)*

      I’m trans and have changed my name.

      The interpersonal part was definitely the most complicated. As others have mentioned, setting your boundaries and sticking to them is key. (For instance, I didn’t push back with Dad too much because he had cancer but stuck to my guns with Mom.)

      If your work email is based on your name, you may need to get IT to make your old address automatically forward to your new one.

      The legal part was pretty easy. It varies by state, so you’ll have to do some research. I found it helpful to get 10 “original” copies of the court order because some places, like work and health insurance, claimed to need the original instead of a photocopy. (I can go back to the courthouse and get more, but it requires an in-person visit and costs more.)

      The political part is more grim: if you’re in the US, you might want to think about whether you want to do the legal name change just yet. The current administration’s chaos threatens to disenfranchise voters whose ID does not match the name on their birth certificate.

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      1. Name me!*

        Yup, that last is definitely a concern for me and I likely won’t be updating my legal name (at least not until things settle down) as a direct result. This would be a social change only.

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    18. I Like My Name*

      Went to college with a fellow who was a junior. His family all called him by his middle name, but everyone at college called him by his first name. It wasn’t a problem for him and when friends were around his family he just got used to responding to two different names depending on who was calling him.

      So feel free to change your name to whatever you want and do not stress about your family calling you a different name than everyone else.

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      1. RLC*

        One of my cousins has multiple given names and periodically changes which one he prefers to go by. He’s learnt to answer to any one or combination of them, we try our best to remember which name he’s using, and he accepts our confusion in a good natured way.

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        1. Wendy Darling*

          I know a guy who’s flipped back and forth between going by his middle name or his first name multiple times in the time I’ve known him. We don’t talk often so sometimes I’ll call him one name and he’ll be like “Oh actually I’m going by OtherName now” and that’s it. He’s never upset about it. I, because I am a social anxiety disaster, feel briefly terrible for using the wrong name every time but that’s a me problem and I get over it after a few minutes.

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    19. Flower*

      A friend I’ve known for 50 years changed her name in her 40’s. It took me a long time to get used to it since I’ve known her since we were 16, but it makes her happy and that’s all that matters. Go for it!

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    20. Mark This Confidential And Leave It Laying Around*

      I worked with a woman who did this! Think, it was Sharon and now it’s Michelle. We all stumbled over it at first, and we never got an explanation. She kept cheerfully correcting us and she became Michelle.

      Reply ↓
    21. Wordybird*

      I don’t have advice but I do have encouragement (hopefully!). My teenager is queer, and all of their friends have multiple names depending on who they’re with at any given moment.

      My kid, for example, goes by their middle name at school and with family (which was a change they implemented 2 years ago) but uses their nom de plume from middle school with their friends (and friends’ parents). Their best friend goes by their birth name with family but goes by the name of the character my kid wrote about/for them (in the same book my kid’s author name is from) at school and with friends. My kid’s ex-BF, who is trans, has 4 different names and which one he uses in any given situation is usually reflective of how comfortable or close he feels to the other people present e.g. close friends get one name, acquaintances get another, schoolmates & family get another, and the general public gets another.

      It doesn’t bother any of them, and they all know which name to use and when. The people who care about you will call you any name you like & screw the rest of them! Good luck finding your name & using it! :)

      Reply ↓
  6. Time Zone Confusion*

    People who work across time zones – how do you shift your schedule? This is my first job at a national org and I was told the hours are 8:30 – 5:30. However, being on the East Coast where most of my coworkers are Pacific, this isn’t working well for me (my boss is actually Central). I get no emails all morning and then a flurry when I’m winding down for the day. However, I don’t know about actually shifting my work hours until 9PM my time. I’m considering shifting to Central time to align with my boss. But how often does it ruin your evening plans to adapt to this schedule? Technically, I’m within my rights to keep working ET if I wanted.

    Reply ↓
    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      You ought to question your response to the flurry. I used to work 8 time zones east of most of the rest of my colleagues, so anything they sent during the day I often didn’t see until the next morning.

      If they send you an email at 2pm their time (5pm your time), and you respond at 9am the next day, then it’s ready for them when they show up. 18 hours of elapsed clock time, but only 3 hours of business time from their perspective.

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      1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

        Time Zone Confusion, is the current schedule causing any problems? If no, then feel free take Alton Brown’s Evil Twin’s advice and let it roll. If it is causing issues, you and your boss can do some problem-solving to figure out what to do. Which could involve stuff like reminding your colleagues about your hours, translated into their time zones.

        That being said, do you want to shift your schedule? As someone who doesn’t love mornings, an 8:30 start time wouldn’t be ideal. You could pitch a smaller shift, if you want to, to better align with the times your colleagues are in. But you don’t have to!

        Reply ↓
        1. Time Zone Confusion*

          I would love to start later. I’d love to start at 10 (when my boss starts)! But … I’m not sure I want to commit to working till 7at *minimum* most nights. I’ve never worked that shift before and I can imagine hating it pretty quickly. If anyone has worked it successfully, I’d like to hear how they made it work! Right now I’m also trying to at least check email before I wrap up for bed – so like 9:30 PM my time – but I worry I’m going to burn myself out. I’m new and still trying to do a really good job …

          Reply ↓
          1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

            Oh, well I worked 11-7 or 11-8 in the retail/alcohol world. I made it work.

            1) Wake up at a normal time
            2) Do ALL of your out-of-the-house chores before you go to work. Shopping, post office, whatever – there’s nobody at the grocery store at 8am on a Tuesday.

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          2. Marion the Librarian*

            I worked 11-7 at a nonprofit that did a lot of events and miss this schedule! Agree with Alton Brown’s Evil Twins advice. I woke up around 7am and did my errands in the morning before work. It was great and I felt better knowing all my life admin work was done before heading into the office, instead of waiting for me when I got home when I was exhausted. It takes a bit to adjust but it worked for me.

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          3. Buggalugs*

            It really depends what if anything you like to do in the evening. If you’re a stay at home a chill kind of person it won’t matter much. If you like to go out to events, concerts play sports join clubs then it sucks. I used to work until 6:30 but wouldn’t get anywhere until 7 or 7:30pm so after everything would start or I couldn’t actually join a lot of things because of that. It’s really about what you like to do for recreation time.

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          4. ww*

            I work till 10pm most nights, my early night I’m done at 8 and my late night I’m on the clock till 1:30-2am. I’m very, very used to it – I’m a night owl anyway, so I’d much prefer working till 2, when I’m not asleep before 2:30 naturally, and waking up at 11 over dragging myself out of bed at 7 and into bed at 10pm. That said, the things that have made it work for me:

            1) Living in a 24-7 city. I can go get groceries at midnight because the local shoprite is open 24 hours. I schedule doctors’ appointments mid-week late morning/early afternoon, before my work day starts, and it really cuts the crowds down! But also

            2) I have a lifestyle where getting groceries at midnight makes sense – no kids, no partner on a 9-5 schedule I’d never see. YMMV.

            I’ve worked hard to make friends with weird schedules who want to hang out at weird times – again, this is easy in NYC where everyone’s a freelancer or actor or artist, maybe less so in rural Alabama. And I have a job with solid vacation benefits, and I use every last minute of those benefits, because if my normal-schedule friends are doing things on Saturday afternoon or Tuesday after work, if I want to be there I have to take off . . . and sometimes I do miss stuff. If a class or event starts at 6pm every Monday, as they so often seem to do, that’s something I can’t do. Sometimes I’ll work from a friend’s place so I can log off and join the back half of the party! It’s a scheduling calculus that works for me because, again, no kids to worry about and plenty of time to take off. If you’re a morning person with kids and 2 weeks off a year in a town where nothing is open past 9, it’ll be much harder.

            I’m a huge proponent of such weird schedules! I love being able to sit with a coffee and a book for an hour at noon before work. I haven’t had to wake up before 10 for work in decades. But there are trade-offs.

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          5. Mad Harry Crewe*

            I’ve worked 10-6 and 10-6.30. I *love* those schedules, I’d go back to it in a heartbeat. I went from 9a to 10a start at my last job and I was so well rested – because I kept going to sleep at about the same time, but I got to sleep in an hour later.

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          6. Wendy Darling*

            For 2 years I worked for the US west coast arm of a company based in Europe. It was advantageous to have some of us on pacific time because that’s where most of our clients were, but it did mean that we were 8 hours behind the home office.

            One thing we generally decided on was a set of “core hours” when everyone would be available. This ended up being at the beginning of the US office’s day and the end of the EU office’s day, and was like a 3-hour period. Beyond that we were free to flex our schedules as we liked, and that could vary depending on who you were working closely with at the time. If I was working on a project with someone in Europe I might decide to start work even earlier and end earlier so we could both be online at the same time for longer. But I hate getting up early, so I only did that when necessary.

            I also found that it was quite freeing to have hours in the afternoon when people were mostly leaving me alone. I’m an engineer so having long periods of concentration is good. Sometimes I timeshift at my current workplace even though we’re in one timezone just so I can have a few hours where no one’s trying to slack me.

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      2. EllenD*

        Support this, as a way of making business more effective. You may want to add an out of office notice reminding people that you work East Coast times.

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    2. Superhero Girl*

      Could you shift timezones a few days a week instead of permanently? Maybe Mon-Tues you’re CST, and Wed-Fri you’re EST? That would give you more overlap time with your boss, but also give you a little leeway in organizing plans.

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    3. Generic Name*

      I only shift my schedule if I have an early or late (for me) meeting. My company is across all 4 US time zones, so sometimes I’ll have a 6:30 AM meeting or a 6 PM meeting. Depending on how busy my east coast project is, I might wake up to a dozen emails sent first thing eastern time, and sometimes I’ll get pinged in the evening by a west coast project. In a national org, people understand that colleagues in different time zones might not get their emails until a few hours later or the next day. You were told that the hours are 8:30 to 5:30. Is anyone asking you to be immediately available in the evenings?

      Reply ↓
      1. Time Zone Confusion*

        Nobody’s telling me, but because my job involves a lot of collaboration, I’m kind of twiddling my thumbs in the AM and then missing stuff I could have helped along in the PM. I did initially think “oh, I’ll use the quiet AM hours to catch up / get ahead without being pinged all day” but it’s not working out that well for me.

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        1. Storm in a teacup*

          Hi! I’m uk based and some of my team are west coast US.
          I usually do a 9:30-6 workday as I also work with a lot of European markets. However around once a week if I have later calls I’ll either start a bit later or finish earlier the following day.
          I find 9:30-6 is quite good for getting house chores done in the morning and doesn’t eat into my evenings and still gives me a 3 hour crossover with the us team as they all start at 7am and finish around 3pm.
          Maybe stagger your start time by an hour and see how that fairs?

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        2. Wendy Darling*

          I think I saw you mentioned you’re pretty new at this job?

          I feel like being able to use the quiet hours is something that gets better once you’re settled in to a job, so you might find it evens out. Maybe try making a to-do list for the morning of stuff people are asking you for in the evening that you don’t have time to get to, or focus on the aspects of stuff you need their input for and leave the stuff you can do independently for the following day? You may find you need to talk to them directly for some things but not others.

          I worked the opposite of this for a while, so I logged on toward the end of the main office’s day and I’d spend every morning getting up to speed with them and asking them all my questions, and spend all afternoon executing on whatever I was doing.

          Another thing to consider is that if you’re VERY new (like, first 6 months) you might want to timeshift so you can overlap more temporarily while you’re learning the job, but find that’s less necessary once you’re more independent. I know that for the first 6-12 months at a new job I need a lot more support than I do later on, so the time difference would be more of a problem.

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    4. NYWeasel*

      I work in a global role so my stakeholders and direct reports are on all sorts of time zones. Because it’s everyone on many different schedules, it’s a little more top of mind than what you’re describing, but a few things that might help:
      *If feasible, pick one day each week to be a flex day where you schedule your hours on PT vs EST. Your benefit for losing a night is that you can schedule appointments etc that day without needing to use PTO.
      *Talk with your coworkers about the situation and bring it to the surface—do they need you to weigh in immediately or are they good knowing you’ll respond before they get in the office?
      *Change your mindset about the gap. We save the overlap time for shared meetings, use the other time to catch up, so we know if we see something come in there’s no expectation we have to jump on it before the overlap ends. It’s less personal if you say to your colleagues “I handle focus work in the am so please send any time sensitive requests no later than 10am PT, so I will be able to complete before EOD.”
      *Decide (with your boss’ input) what your tolerance is for emergency requests extending your day. “Never” or “Always” are both fairly unsustainable, but maybe you can align that if you have to stay late more than 15 minutes more than once a week, you’ll look at the root causes, and see why it’s happening, and look to identify workarounds when you aren’t on the clock.

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    5. EngGirl*

      I used to work with a group 6 hours ahead of me, 5 hours ahead of me, and 1 hour behind me. Weirdly I had almost no issues with the 6 and 5 hour differences, I think because we all understood that it wasn’t reasonable to expect me to be available at 4AM my time or for me to expect them to be available at 8PM their time. We found a rhythm that worked for us, did what we could with the hours we had in common and I’d email them in the afternoon and they’d see it and email me in the morning their time so it would be there when I got in.

      Now the group 1 hour behind was constantly an issue. They would inundate us with emails at the end of our day and expect responses and then complain to management that we were ignoring them. I was constantly battling my boss to remind her that my team was not “on call” and that most of these were clearly non urgent issues that had come up much earlier in the day, that just weren’t communicated to us.

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    6. MJ*

      Can you propose shifting your hours as a limited time trial to your boss? Say you aren’t sure you would like working into your evening so want to try it for (two weeks / a month) and then evaluate how you feel.

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    7. EngGirl*

      Actually thinking more about this… how long have you been in this role? It sounds new. If you’ve only been there a couple of months I wouldn’t be so hasty to change your schedule. As you get more into projects it might make more sense for you to have your mornings clear to do some of the focus based things without interruption

      Reply ↓
      1. Wendy Darling*

        I was actually thinking that depending on how new it might make sense to change their schedule to align more with their boss/coworkers as a temporary thing while they’re still doing a lot of learning, but then move back to a more normal schedule for their timezone once they’re working more independently so that focus time is more useful.

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        1. Time Zone Confusion*

          Yes, it’s only just been my first month, so I appreciate that things could change. I wanted to start out by working as instructed (8:30-5:30) before suggesting anything else.

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    8. CubeFarmer*

      If it works for your organization, set up an OOO that’s triggered every day at your 5:00pm (or whenever.)

      Were there expectations when you were hired that you would align your working hours with Pacific Time? If not, then I don’t think you need to respond after hours.

      Reply ↓
      1. Wilbur*

        That would drive me crazy. In Teams and Outlook you can set your working hours, so theoretically people shouldn’t schedule meetings during that time. All they need to do is let people know their hours, handle whatever emails they can at the end of their working day, turn off notifications during off shift hours, and shift their focused work to the morning.

        Reply ↓
    9. LaminarFlow*

      I live in EST, and work with teams in every time zone around the world. I mostly interface with PST, India & Israel.

      I keep my Outlook calendar up to date, and I have the blurb of “My normal business hours are X to X, which may be different from your business hours, and blah blah blah”. I also update my Slack status regularly.

      Overall, I have meetings that happen outside of my normal business hours, and I don’t really mind. If the meeting doesn’t require my presence, I ask the organizer to record it for the people who can’t attend. If I am a crucial part of the meeting, I usually just adjust my day or week to reflect 40 hours, which could mean that I start work late one day, have a large chunk of unscheduled time another day, etc. I use those chunks of time for workouts, appointments, running and errands, prepping dinner, etc. It sounds like a lot of work, but it really just means consistent communication with people that I interface with. I also give those people the same grace by suggesting that I record meetings that are outside of their normal working hours, etc.

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    10. Green Goose*

      I’ve worked at companies across time zones, but at my old-employer, I had to work with a lot of colleagues across ET/CT/MT and PT (my time zone). I honestly think it’s a lot harder for folks in ET, so you have my sympathies. The biggest thing was trying to find virtual times that worked for everyone and it was hard.

      Can you stick with your current time zone and then play it by ear weekly to see if there are certain days you’ll need to work later?
      Are people getting frustrated with you/is it impacting work when people are reaching out at 2:30 PT and not hearing back from you until the next day, or is it more a concern on your end?

      I personally have a lot of responsibilities outside of work (drop off/pick up) so I could potentially do one time zone difference, but even that would be challenging. The way it impacts you really depends on you specifically. If it would be better for your life to start work a bit later, and maybe have the mornings to do what you want before logging on, then maybe that would work. If you have a life situation where you life starts at 5pm ET, then moving your hours back would probably be a drag. A friend of mine who is also PT, works CT and she loves it because she can be done by 3pm PT everyday and then go pick up her kids. So it really depends.

      It you feel like you need to move to your bosses time zone, maybe suggest that you work CT M-Th, but Fri you keep ET hours so that you aren’t working late on a Friday night?

      Reply ↓
      1. Time Zone Confusion*

        Yes, 6 or 7 on a Friday would be quite the bummer for me, as I do have a lot of friends I’d love to see, and I’m not really someone who would be happy leaving the house late and staying out really late (at least, I’m not right now. Not to say I could never become such a person).

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    11. HonorBox*

      I wouldn’t shift unless the different time zones was causing an issue. When someone emails you from PT now and it is after 5:30, are there problems? If not, I wouldn’t try to get every response out the door before you leave because you may be rushed and not respond as you would if you weren’t. Also there’s no reason to work longer hours just to make sure someone has the response with a couple hours left in their work day.

      Maybe split your week a bit. Work a day or two from 9:30 to 6:30 instead and see if that helps. And I’d strongly suggest making that change only if it helps you first, and others second.

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    12. An Australian in London*

      Any time I have done this, the key for me was consistency. Keep the same sleeping hours for weekends and non-working days.

      If you do this, there will be costs for all schedules involving other people and organisations outside work.
      If you don’t do this there will be costs for your sleep schedule.

      I’ve managed to keep UK business hours in Australia for months on end. Family and friends came to accept that I was not available before 3pm under any circumstances. It made medical appointments difficult.

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    13. Twenty Points for the Copier*

      I’m in a very similar situation. I work on the east coast and the rest of my team is on the west coast. I don’t have set hours so I tend to work from about 10-7. Late for ET but early for PT. I find it gives me a reasonably normal schedule and a good deal of overlap with the people I work with.

      I tend to only have evening plans 1-2 days a week and just stop earlier those days. The day before or after I may work later to make up for it. I’m 1099 so I have a very high level of freedom to set my schedule but I’ve found 9:30-6:30 or 10-7 provide a good balance (sometimes it’s a full 9 hours worked; other times it’s running an errand or two during the day). This schedule also lets me get in a morning workout without getting up too early.

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    14. Beth*

      I’m in PT, my boss is in ET, and my team and customers cover the entire range in between. I skew my hours a little earlier than standard PT by preference–I like to be done at closer to 4 than 5! But I still have the opposite pattern than you, with a flurry of activity to catch up on when I get in, and a couple hours of quiet in the afternoon.

      In theory, if we message someone outside their work hours, they reply when they’re next in. In your case, this would mean you don’t have to handle the whole afternoon flurry while it’s happening–of course you’ll be available while you’re in office, but whatever isn’t handled by 5:30 ET can be addressed during your quiet morning hours the following day. Functionally, we consider any reply within 24 hours of receiving an email to be a ‘same day’ reply.

      In practice, I’ve noticed that my ET coworkers are more likely to reply outside their work hours than I am. In the hours when they’re at work and I’m not, I’m asleep, so I don’t see it until I come in. But the skew is on the evening on their end, when they’re awake and see notifications from emails and Teams messages–it takes willpower to ignore that until morning, or some fancy notification settings to turn them off after a certain hour.

      I do think skewing your hours later would make it hard to have evening plans. I love skewing my work early because it gives me more time in the evenings–I can go to the grocery store, cook dinner, eat, do dishes, and still be on time to book club or movie night. Skewing later would have the opposite impact. If you’re worried about losing evening time, I wouldn’t volunteer for that.

      Reply ↓
      1. Wendy Darling*

        The thing I like about skewing later is that I can go to the grocery store at 9am. Do you know who is at the grocery store at 9am? NOBODY!

        I’ve worked remote or hybrid for years for companies that don’t care how I flex my hours as long as I’m at meetings and and get my work done. My favorite trick has for years been starting work at like 8am and then logging off for a couple hours around 11am to run errands/go to appointments/whatever. There’s no traffic and hardly anyone is running errands then, it’s great.

        It was also super helpful when my dog had a bunch of specialist vet appointments — there was only one specialist in my area so I had to take whatever time they had open, and I managed to get through an entire dog eye surgery and all the followup and only take one PTO day for the surgery itself.

        Reply ↓
    15. Spacewoman Spiff*

      I used to work on new york time while most of my team was based in London, and I loved it. Mornings were for meetings and anything I needed to work on with them. Afternoons were for project work, which I could often pass off to my London-based teammates at the end of my day, to pick up at the start of their following day. Eventually I did start doing more work with teams in my location, so that shifted–but that also involved working with some associates in India, so still thinking a lot about how we handed work back and forth at the ends of our days. We were an international org, so thinking about how to collaborate across time zones was a pretty standard conversation there. If that’s not a conversation at your workplace, I wonder if it’s one you could raise with your team? If your Pacific colleagues haven’t had an East Coast-based team member before, it might require some adjustments from everyone in terms of scheduling meetings in a narrower window and being thoughtful in how you hand work back and forth…for you to shift to working till 9PM doesn’t feel to me like the only or best solution.

      Reply ↓
    16. JustCuz*

      My work colleagues are like 5 hours ahead. It is assumed that anything sent after like 11 is going to be answered in the next day. That is likely your culture too. Just look at it like they sent an email at 5pm. Sometimes we all do send emails at 5pm. And we do it with the understanding that it will not be gotten to until the next business day. If there have been no problems, there really isn’t a reason to change it.

      Reply ↓
    17. BigLawEx*

      Were there any expectations presented to you when you started? What did your predecessor do? I’m just asking to see if there’s something you’re missing – like everyone thinks you’re available when you’re not.

      For remote roles I see offered, either their presented as you work your time zone hours or you can be remote in the PT, but have to work CT or ET hours.

      In absence of all that, I’d figure out what *I* want first, then present some options to your manager, etc., of how you’d like to work going forward. OR don’t change it, and let the time issue not worry you.

      Reply ↓
  7. FaintlyMacabre*

    How would you phrase a question about keystroke trackers in an interview? I may be applying to a place that I have heard possibly uses them. I suspect the use of the trackers would be a deal breaker for me.

    Reply ↓
    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I might start by asking about more general topics like data security so it’s not coming at them out of left field.

      Reply ↓
    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      What’s the context? If, for example, they use them to “prove” remote workers are actually working, you might ask how productivity is measured.

      Reply ↓
    4. Qwerty*

      I’d wait until I had an offer. Then ask the recruiter about the practice, citing Glassdoor or whereever you heard about it from.

      I can’t think of a way for it to not sound weird in an interview, plus your interviewer might not know the answer. If they are using them, it makes a bigger impact when someone declines an offer (because the company definitely wanted that person) than if they withdraw from the process.

      Reply ↓
      1. HR Exec Popping In*

        I think it is a fair question to ask, but not right out of the gate. I would tell them that during your research on the company and the organizational culture you came across several posts citing that the company uses monitoring devices to track productivity of remote workers and you would like to understand if this is true and if so, how do they use the information and why do they feel such tracking is necessary.

        I’m not personally and morally opposed to the idea of monitoring, but I do think it is a red flag that managers don’t trust their employees and/or aren’t connected enough to their teams and the work that they need such things.

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    5. Nesprin*

      Assuming you’ve got options and don’t need this job, I’d just ask as part of the “How do you manage people?” set of questions.

      e.g. “I did note that glassdoor reported that you use monitoring software- is that correct and how do you use it?”

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    6. But not the Hippopotamus*

      If it were me, I would try to ask the hiring manager specifically. I might ask how they specifically manage remote staff with the idea of followups on corporate tools for monitoring and collaboration (so it’s not too focused on one or the other). Maybe something like, “I have seen a variety of methods and tools used to monitor and aid performance, especially with remote management. What tools and methods does the company use and support and of those, which are being used with this team?” If I had to get nore specific, i might say that I like to sketch out ideas on paper or a whiteboard and watch for responses to that as well.

      Reply ↓
  8. Frustrated Francine*

    Hello, wanting to vent/ask if I’m right to feel annoyed.

    I’m a Canadian federal government employee. Our team is currently in the office 1 day per week and will very shortly be going to 2 days per week. This is supposedly for purposes of collaboration although our work is very individual. I can count on one hand the number of times in the past year I’ve collaborated with someone from my team.

    We have hubs scattered throughout the city (one of them literally around the corner from my house) yet we are told we must go to our actual office for those 2 days.

    At the same time, our supervisor is leaving and our new supervisor will be fully remote. So while we are doubling our in-office time (for “collaboration”), our supervisor will never be in office.

    I don’t have an issue with her working from home. It’s more the inconsistency of our return to office for one purpose which is not very practical for our work and of which our supervisor will not be a part of.

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    1. Alice*

      Nonsensical.
      I would 100% feel annoyed.
      Now, it might be better for your mental health if you can find a way to not feel annoyed — but TBH I haven’t yet managed that about my own similar situation, so, good luck.

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    2. Charlotte Lucas*

      I think you’re right to be annoyed, especially with the supervisor being fully remote. (Seems to me that they should definitely be in the office as much for “collaboration.”)

      I also have work that is often fairly individual, but it often touches a lot of areas outside my manager’s purview), and required in-office days often cause me to get less done. (I actually am hybrid but often try to choose my days based on who will and won’t be in the office.)

      Reply ↓
    4. Hiring Mgr*

      Is there a chance that the new supervisor will realize what you are saying and cut back on your in office days?

      Reply ↓
    5. Anon Just for This*

      Another public servant here, but not for the feds.

      I’d be annoyed, too. It’s clearly about optics. The rationales for going back in-person have always been flimsy, at best. Particularly when they’re reducing their footprint, so there aren’t even enough desks for everyone. And I’ve never seen any data from my organization evaluating the move.

      I haven’t ever actually said this to any executives, but forcing people back into a building to improve collaboration implies that we weren’t doing a good enough job collaborating when we were all remote. Is that really what they’re saying to us? Because that’s kinda insulting.

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      1. Federal worker*

        I’ve heard this is happening because city and provincial politicians are complaining to federal politicians that public transit and restaurants don’t have enough customers. Forcing people to travel further will help fix some of this.

        I am pushing back by cycling as much as possible and bringing my own lunch. I know it’s not possible for everyone, but I’m annoyed!

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      1. A Significant Tree*

        *cries in US federal employee*

        My only advice is to try to stop making it make sense. It just doesn’t make sense for distributed teams. You and I and all the ground level people know that. :-( It’s infuriating to hear that this is to make us more “productive” and “collaborate” which is the opposite of what will happen. (In the US at least, it’s also a bald-faced lie – telework was specifically increased years ago to make fed employment more attractive and increase retention and my agency for one really leaned into distributed teams and remote workforce, but when your gov’t doesn’t want to actually retain people…)

        Long way to say you’re absolutely right to feel this is annoying and poorly executed.

        Reply ↓
    7. Qwerty*

      Is the new supervisor local or in a different location? If she’s local and not coming in, that would be more frustrating than if it is an actual logistical issue. I think it is going to take a while for everyone to end up back in the same locations.

      But yeah, feeling annoyed at this is natural. (And we also get to feel annoyed at things even they make sense or aren’t objectively wrong) What I’ve seen more helpful for some friends dealing with RTO is directing their annoyance at how Remote/WFH was rolled out a few years ago than at the RTO today – basically the past five years have been a mess where remote got made permanent too soon before the issues were apparent resulting in whiplash for employees.

      Reply ↓
    8. Also a Canadian public servant*

      I was in a similar situation of wondering if it was just me or if I was right to be annoyed just before my team was ordered back into the office 3 days per week. The answer now a couple of years later is a resounding yes, I was right to be annoyed. I was always remote from the rest of my team and the extra tools we got during the pandemic made it so much easier for me to collaborate with them than before. My office is in a rural location that houses employees from all the ministries together, and there are just a handful of other employees from my ministry also there, none of whom I need to work. We were told we needed to be in the office because “those water cooler conversations are so important”. We don’t have a water cooler. The people from the other ministries never talk to us or come into our corner. Most of the others from my ministry work in the field 2-3 days per week and management decided that they could count their field days as office days, so they are hardly ever there. There is one other person besides me who works a desk job whose days overlap with mine. She is so strange in how she interacts that it has thrown neurodivergent me way off balance. I finally brought it up with my therapist because I was worried that maybe I had done something wrong or forgotten how to be social during the pandemic, and we decided that it was her not me and that it would be better if I didn’t interact with her beyond the usual niceties.
      So now I am driving 40 min 3 days a week to sit in a depressing maze of a cube farm, having no in-person interactions about anything work related while I’m there, still having exclusively online meetings with my team, just to drive 40 min home again. It’s nonsense!

      Reply ↓
    9. Quinalla*

      You are right to be annoyed.

      I’m permanently remote and I DO see the value in getting together in person for some things. I have yet to actually witness a company handle RTO/hybrid in a way that actually make sense. Friends and acquaintances are going back on different days from their team, or their team sits on different floors, or their team is all over the country so they are all on zoom/teams all day in the office instead of at home. Or their work is 95% independent, so going in even once or twice a week like you are is overkill, could be once a month/quarter. Or it’s RTO for most employees, but a few are allowed to WFH for “reasons” and it is often the lower level employees coming in and higher ups WFH.

      Do you think your supervisor might let you go to the closer office or even stay at 1 day a week or both? Would your supervisor come in once a quarter/month so you as a team could actually meet in person together to do some things that are better that way?

      Reply ↓
  9. Mature Student soon?*

    I posted a few weeks ago asking for peoples stories about goin back to school – thanks everyone for sharing, I’m going ahead and enrolling! I’ve picked a course I’m passionate about and work are happy for me to drop my hours down. I know the tradeoffs are a 20% paycut and a long commute to the campus, but I’m feeling absolutely terrified! Is the fear normal or is there something my brain hasn’t considered yet…?

    Reply ↓
    1. MsM*

      Change is scary! But you want this, work’s supportive (and if that changes, you can look into alternatives), and I bet starting your classes and meeting your classmates will help. You’ve got this!

      Reply ↓
    2. Kesnit*

      I went to law school after 10 years of being in the workforce. It took some getting used to, but I got used to it pretty quick. It was also nice not to have to dress up every day and being able to sleep in sometimes.

      I do feel like my study habits were better in law school than they were in undergrad.

      Reply ↓
    3. The teapots are on fire*

      The fear is 100% normal. I did it, too, to dip my toes in the water for the prereqs for med school. It worked out fine!

      Reply ↓
    4. Pam Adams*

      the fear is normal- it’s a big change!
      As an advisor who sees lots of older/returning students, the being scared is normal, but so is becoming a top student.

      Reply ↓
    5. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

      Yes, the fear is normal! It just means that you care. There may be some bumps in the road, but that’s OK.

      Reply ↓
    7. An Australian in London*

      The fear is definitely normal.

      Fear of change.
      Fear of failure.
      Fear of what if it isn’t worth it, or I don’t like the course, or I can’t sustain this long term, or have nothing to show for it after.
      Fear of what if I’m a far worse student than everyone else in my course.
      Fear of what if I am too old and out of touch for this.

      What’s the quote about bravery? It’s not about never feeling fear, but about not letting that get in the way of what has to be done.

      Go to your course and be afraid. You’ll find out pretty quickly you can still learn while you’re afraid. Then one day you’ll notice you haven’t been afraid for a while.

      Source: I did two Masters at the same time, evenings and weekends, while in full-time self-employed freelancing. Took me 5.5 years and I finished 9 years ago. Eyeing another Masters now actually. :)

      Reply ↓
    8. BlueberryGirl*

      Yes. I work with adult learners and all of them say that going back was really really hard. It is really really hard. You’re doing a really brave thing. So, for whatever it is worth, good luck!

      Don’t let your anxiety stand in the way of getting something you want.

      Reply ↓
    9. Rainy*

      I went back to school to finish my undergrad when I was 26, eight years out from my first try at university. I had a really great experience and am still happy I did it, so I’m glad you are too, and hope you find it as amazing as I did.

      The fear is normal. It’s a big change. I’d be sort of worried if you weren’t afraid. :) I was terrified–I quit my job to go back to school full time, and I had no idea how any of it was going to work out.

      Reply ↓
    10. Tulip*

      I wanted to chime in as a community college professor. I _love_ having adult/nontraditional students in my classes! Many are incredibly nervous at the start, but typically they do very well (I’m painting with broad strokes here, but their maturity and life experiences often make them much more motivated/invested in their learning).

      I’d encourage you to talk to your professor early and often; hopefully they are kind and will help ease the transition. I’d also suggest taking advantage of any resources available to students: tutoring, the Writing Center, events at the library about study skills, cultivating growth mindsets, using online databases, etc. Would you be eligible for TRIO? If so, it can be a great support system for students. Remember that the institution wants to see you succeed! Kudos for being brave and trying something uncomfortable.

      Reply ↓
  10. NYWeasel*

    I applied to an internal position that closed on the 2nd and have been impatiently awaiting word on my status since then but going into R1 interviews next week!!! Happy news to start the weekend!

    Reply ↓
    1. Tio*

      I like that idea, but given how many trolls have shown up lately, it might be a bigger ask now or Alison to moderate the comments on something that racks up a lot of comments like that

      Although tbh I kind of prefer getting an answer from someone professional like Alison and then seeing in the comments what the others say, so I never missed the ask the readers posts that much

      Reply ↓
    4. Balanceofthemis*

      I’d be really interested in this, but I could see some derailing just because there are things that might be normal or expected in one industry, but would put a job in another industry in the this job sucks category.

      Reply ↓
  12. Green Goose*

    My company might hire someone as a contractor/vendor for an upcoming event. I’m in my late 30s and worked with this contractor when we were in our early twenties (for 1-2 years) and had a bad working experience with this person (not just personal stuff, this person was unprofessional in ways that impacted mine and others work). They are now in a completely different field and it’s been a long time.
    I don’t particularly want to see this person again based on my experience working with them. Should I mention my experience to the person who is in charge of hiring vendors for the event? I’m friendly with this event coordinator. But is it too petty? Or just let it go and avoid my former coworker at the event.

    If you want a specific examples of something this coworker did: We were both shift supervisors, and she supervised the shift before mine. My work could not be done unless her work had been completed. She became angry with our supervisors when they did not hire her friend, so to “get revenge” she messed up all the inventory and paperwork during her shift, which didn’t really “get” our bosses, but it resulted in a really long, stressful day for me. I was super annoyed with her but when I tried to talk to her about it, she lied to my face about messing up the orders. And then went out with other coworkers later and laughed about it.

    Reply ↓
    1. MsM*

      If the hiring’s not a done deal and they’re weighing other candidates, I think it’s worth mentioning, yeah. Definitely provide the caveat that it was years ago and you hope they’ve improved since then, but you feel like you’d be remiss if you didn’t flag it as a concern.

      Reply ↓
    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      This person disrupts work to get vengeance for perceived personal slights. It’s not petty to bring that up, as long as you can give factual examples.

      Reply ↓
    3. Glazed Donut*

      I might be in the minority here – but I’d avoid them and otherwise let it go. I did a few stupid things in my early 20s at work (things I’d be mortified if someone brought up now, but I thought I was in the right/sticking it to the man then). I’ve learned so much since then, and have so much to show for my professionalism now. I reflect on my early 20s self and forgive that person’s mistakes but I’d be pretty upset (yet understanding) if someone used it to cancel a current work project. I’m completely different!
      Is there a way you could talk to someone who has worked with this person more recently to get a feel for if they’ve changed?

      Reply ↓
      1. Green Goose*

        I don’t think I could reach out to any professional contacts, and that would probably be weird since I’m not the one in charge of hiring for this event. We’re in different fields now, I’m in a corporate environment and she does something like yoga teacher (not the actual job) and the coordinator would be hiring her to teach yoga at our company for an event.

        Reply ↓
    4. Fly on the Wall*

      I would say it depends on how long ago. I am not the same work individual I was 10 years ago, and no where near what I was at 20. You live, you learn, you grow.

      Reply ↓
    5. HR Exec Popping In*

      This was a long time ago – I’m assuming at least 15 years. If that is the case, don’t say anything and hope that the person has grown and is more professional now (I know I am more professional than I was 15 years ago). BUT, if you have to work with them just be prepared for issues.

      Reply ↓
    6. LaminarFlow*

      If someone came to me with a not super serious (nobody was harassed, threatened, or harmed, and no violence took place) objection over someone they worked with 15-20 years ago, while they were in their early 20s, I would find it very petty. Most people mature and change from their early 20s to their late 30s, and holding a grudge for so long is silly.

      This woman may or may not remember you or the situation, but it happened so long ago. She was crappy to you, and she made your day very long and awful. That sucks! It is also pretty easy to keep the upcoming interactions with her minimal, respectful, and non-committal. If your manager asks you to train her on something and you don’t feel comfortable with it, you could voice your objection in a way that won’t make you seem petty, and won’t damage her unfairly. Something like “I worked with Jane a long time ago, and it wasn’t a positive experience. Please ask someone else to train Jane on this.”

      If Jane is still treating people badly, her behavior will reveal itself in due time, and she will sink her own reputation.

      Reply ↓
      1. Cellbell*

        I think the language would need to be gentler than this. If my employee said that to me, I’d be concerned and want to know more to make sure they feel safe–psychologically and even physically–in the workplace. If OP explains the situation, they looks petty since it was so long ago and relatively minor in the scheme of things. If they demur and say they don’t want to talk about it, I may assume Jane did something truly awful.

        Reply ↓
    7. Hyaline*

      It’s been over 15 years–as there’s a good chance this could be chalked up to “immature and inexperienced” I would let it go, and avoid interacting with the person at the event (it sounds like you won’t be working closely with them?). I’m also assuming from the description that this is not particularly sensitive or ethically challenging work–like this person is being hired as a caterer or florist, not as a grief counselor or a caseworker for abused children–so I’m less worried about potential lingering lack of judgment or poor character affecting the work and harming others in a truly damaging way. I’d trust that the event coordinator is doing due diligence getting (more recent!) references or referrals and if this person gets hired, it’s because they’ve changed/grown up–and if they haven’t, that will eventually bite them in the rear.

      Reply ↓
      1. Green Goose*

        Thank you, Hyaline. This is a good framing for me, the work she will be doing is not ethically challenging. She would be doing something similar to teaching a yoga class for my company, so I can just opt out of the activity. I think I was torn because the things she did (other examples but they seem more petty/gossipy stuff) just showed such a lack of professionalism and good judgement that I thought on one hand it might be relevant but it’s not as if I would work with her regularly and it really was a long time ago. I appreciate your insight.

        Reply ↓
        1. Bike Walk Bake Books*

          The additional question I have is whether the kind of work she did then is the same thing she’s being hired to do now. In your early 20s working at a job you maybe don’t love and not one you plan to make a career in you might do stupid stuff. If she’s now established in something that really matters to her, I’d expect a much higher level of professionalism and concern for the impression she creates for clients who hold the potential for referrals, testimonials, and repeat business.

          In other words, she doesn’t want to screw this up. She might be super embarrassed to see you and think “I was such a tool back then. I hope Green Goose doesn’t remember.”

          Reply ↓
    8. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Your experience with this individual was 15+ years ago. A lot can change in 15 years, so unless you have recent knowledge or experience, I think you’re being unreasonable. You can be pleasant for an event. If you can’t, that says far more about you than this other person. And you never know – you may find out that they’ve changed and become someone you want to work with going forward.

      Reply ↓
  13. Omelas Employee*

    Help, I’m a temp manager with an extremely toxic staff member, Linda, that I cannot discipline/fire/put on a PIP. Linda is regularly making quiet comments in a nasty tone when I am not present in the room, making petty complaints to HR (someone she didn’t like wasn’t fast enough opening the front door for her), and yesterday got in a coworker’s face and mocked them. I’ve reported all this to my supervisor and documented the hell out of everything, but I still need to protect the rest of my staff from Linda throughout the day.
    What steps can I take to “keep her on the short leash”?

    Reply ↓
    1. Charlotte Lucas*

      Why can’t you discipline her? She sounds awful.

      What can you do? I’d recommend daily check ins where you discuss her behavior and how it affects the team. What does HR say your options are?

      Does she do any actual work?

      Reply ↓
    2. MsM*

      Is the reason you can’t do anything because your authority is only temporary? If so, who do you need to talk to in order to make the case that this problem can’t wait for them to figure out who’s going to be permanently in charge?

      Barring that, anything that happens in front of you: “Linda, stop. That’s incredibly rude/unprofessional.”

      Anything your reports come to you about: “I hear and share your frustration. I promise I’m doing everything I can, so please continue to document everything and keep me in the loop.”

      Anything Linda does that affects other managers and their reports that they subsequently complain to you about: “I really wish I could do more, but my hands are tied. I’d love your help with getting HR/senior management to act on this, though.”

      Anything that happens behind your back or doesn’t directly impact you in some way: Unfortunately, your hands are tied, and there really isn’t much you can do other than ask yourself how long you want to continue even temporarily “managing” at a place that doesn’t allow you to actually manage problem employees.

      Reply ↓
      1. Omelas Employee*

        Unfortunately I cannot do any disciplinary action because I am contracted through a third party agency for this temporary manager position and am not an actual employee of the organization I am temping for.

        HR is really slow to do anything because any disciplinary action too soon after she makes a petty complaint to them could be seen in court as retaliatory.

        Linda’s performance is not good and she is using all the legal language to protect herself “this is a hostile workplace,” etc. The truth is she can’t take feedback but is consistently making mistakes and forgetting things, so when coworkers inevitably point out that something is wrong, she doubles down on the hostile workplace language. Again, I can’t put her on a PIP and HR is afraid of being accused of retaliation.

        Thus, I am stuck managing Linda.

        Reply ↓
        1. MsM*

          Someone needs to point out to HR that at some point, continuing to subject people to Linda is going to prompt group accusations of a hostile workplace environment.

          Reply ↓
    3. Zona the Great*

      Can you empower others to stand up to her? The coworker should have pushed her away with your blessing. If she can’t get in trouble, surely that means others can rise up without fear of getting in trouble.

      Reply ↓
    4. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

      Assuming you’re correct that you can’t fire or discipline Linda (but check to be sure?), do what you can to make Linda the problem of the person who can do that. You can’t really manage if you don’t have the authority that lets you actually manage. Have you had a clear conversation with your own supervisor about the effect that Linda is having on the rest of the staff and their morale? Do you have a sense of what steps they’re taking to deal with or escalate this? Would it be appropriate to suggest that your reports talk to your supervisor? Can you talk to HR about how they’re handling Linda’s petty complaints? Like, what did HR do about the door complaint? Did they tell her to stop being ridiculous?

      You probably do still need to have conversations with Linda about her behaviour, even if they’re not likely to help much. Just show that you’re trying to do the right thing. Don’t want to give her any chance to say that she was never warned about stuff.

      Also, do you have suggestions for your staff on how they can respond in the moment to Linda being mean? Like if she gets up in someone’s face, they’re more than welcome to just walk away from her. Or deploy a strategic “what an odd thing to say!” in response. Would you encourage them to start making reports to HR about these things?

      Reply ↓
    6. Hyaline*

      To what extent can you literally isolate her? Put her in projects where she’ll fly solo and move space so she isn’t physically near anyone? And then, obvs, shut down anything in the moment and address anything you don’t catch in the act afterwards and hope she has some shred of shame that keeps her closer in line.

      Reply ↓
      1. another academic librarian*

        this was my exact response. I did exactly this with a toxic employee. Took six months because her behavior didn’t change. Keep documenting. Be prepared for complaints about “isolating”her. Spin it in the positive- opportunity to focus and not be distracted. “promotion” to an office.

        Reply ↓
    7. HR Exec Popping In*

      I don’t understand why you can’t put this person on a PIP. If it is because you are temporary then talk to you boss about them putting this person on a PIP. In the mean time, you say you are documenting. Be sure that includes documentation you are sending her. For example, after providing her feedback verbally, send her an email summarizing the discussion. “As we discussed this afternoon, XYZ is unacceptable and not meeting performance expectations. I need to you to do ABC to improve your performance level effective immediately.”

      Reply ↓
  14. Amber Rose*

    A recruiter wants to talk to me about a role at the mart for walls, which I didn’t know until after I agreed to talk about it. I looked over the job description and not only do I not think I’m qualified, I don’t really want to work for a shady company.

    He asked for my resume and email to set up a meeting, and I kind of feel like I don’t want to send my resume for something I didn’t even apply for. Do I ghost or should I say something?

    Reply ↓
    1. WantonSeedStitch*

      If you think you might want to work with this recruiter in the future, say something. If you honestly don’t care, ghost.

      Reply ↓
    4. londonedit*

      I wouldn’t ghost, but you’re under no obligation to send them anything. Just say ‘Thanks for the information, but I’m afraid this job isn’t for me’.

      Reply ↓
    5. E*

      If you like the recruiter and are open to other positions, just send a note that you aren’t interested in this but may be interested in positions with X (and list your requirements). I did this, listing very specific requirements (because my job was fine) and ended up with a position thats 90% remote, large pay increase, and better work life balance a few months after they originally reached out about a different position that I wasn’t interested in.

      Reply ↓
    6. Hiring Mgr*

      If you are looking for jobs in general and you want to this recruiter to keep you in mind, I would reply that this one isn’t a fit but to get in touch if he sees jobs that are _____ (whatever you’re looking for)

      Reply ↓
    7. Beth**

      What’s wrong with saying “thanks for sending me this further information. Having read it, I am not interested in the role.”?

      Reply ↓
    8. Rex Libris*

      I just tell the recruiter that it’s not a company you’d consider working for, so you wouldn’t want to take up any more of their time with it.

      Reply ↓
    9. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Don’t ghost. He may have other roles at other companies that would be a better fit for you. “I looked over the job description and it’s not for me, but please keep me in mind for similar roles that come across your desk.” You can say something about how you’d prefer not to work for Wal-Mart, but you don’t have to.

      Reply ↓
    10. HR Exec Popping In*

      Just simply say thanks for thinking of me, but at this time I am not interested in this role with mart for walls.

      Reply ↓
    11. NotRealAnonForThis*

      Its been wild with recruiters lately. Remove the mart of walls, and I’ve had multiple similar situations pop up.

      Perfect opportunity, won’t say where it is or who its with, want me to email my resume before we even discuss the position that I’m not even sure is real….and the answer is “this is a two-way interview and I’ll forward you my resume after we discuss the opportunity”. 50/50 hit rate on that, and the 50% who insist…I simply discontinue the conversation with.

      Next person who tries to sell me on “culture” is going to really open a can of worms, especially if I’ve already stated “I’d need an increase of XX to even consider moving”. I don’t know of a work culture that could convince me to take a 25% pay cut, and that’s typically where that whole conversation goes!

      Reply ↓
    12. Rainy*

      Just let him know you’re not interested. If he pushes after that, block him, because he’s telling you that working with him isn’t going to be constructive. But if you think he’d be useful later, no harm in keeping the contact.

      Reply ↓
    13. Bike Walk Bake Books*

      I don’t understand why you’d ghost if you’d be interested in other positions. Tell him you’re not interested in this position and you’d be happy to discuss what you actually are looking for in case they have other openings that are a good fit.

      A minimal level of courtesy goes a long way. If you’re “that polite candidate” you’re on a shorter list than “ghosted me, don’t send them any openings ever again”.

      Reply ↓
  15. FantaRay*

    This might sound like a silly question but just how do you stay focused enough to be hitting 40 hours of work every week?

    For context, I’m in my final year of college and working on my Big Final Project, where my advisor has been telling us we have to work on it for 40 hours a week, and track said 40 hours. It sounds easy enough on paper, but I’ve been really struggling! I’m regularly on campus to work (bcs I’d get even less done at home!) from 10am to 7 or 8pm, but I keep finding that my actual hours worked is always lacking, and I’ve been struggling to get all my tasks actually done. I just can’t seem to sit down and work! I keep getting distracted or my brain just gets stuck while I’m painting the teapots, or I just find myself so bored, even though this is stuff I enjoy doing but it’s so frustrating!
    For what it’s worth, I did a full time internship over the summer where I still had days where I struggled to focus on my work, mainly when I worked from home, but it seemed a little better, and I’m not sure why? It scares me that I’m struggling now because I know it’s the expectation going forward.

    Any advice would be suuuuuper appreciated.

    Reply ↓
    1. RealityBitez*

      I think the honest answer is many people don’t work solidly for 40 hours a week. I know it might be different for lawyers, doctors, teachers, retail workers, etc, but in many office jobs, there’s a decent amount of downtime. And it’s not just phones—my dad said people used to read the literal newspaper in his office.

      Reply ↓
      1. TheGirlintheAfternoon*

        I’m with RealityBitez on this one – many 40 hour/week roles are built with the assumption that you won’t be actively working for all 40 of those hours. When it comes to working on a Big Project, unless you happen to be a person with exceptional focus, I think it’s reasonable to assume that 40 hours of “work” is going to take longer than 40 hours to achieve.

        You might have better luck spacing out your time (10-12, take a dedicated break, 1-2:30, take a break, 2:45-4:00, break, etc.) than trying to just push through 8 hours straight, if you’re not already doing that.

        Reply ↓
    2. Generic Name*

      Well, literally no one is focused for 40 hours per week. So I wouldn’t fixate on that part. BUT you say you can’t focus on anything and you are struggling to get your tasks done. Have you been assessed or diagnosed for ADHD? That can cause some of the symptoms you describe. But honestly, going from college to a desk job is a really difficult transition, ADHD/attention stuff or not. In college classes are about an hour and you are constantly walking from place to place. Unless you have a meeting heavy job, being plonked down in front of a computer for 8 hours is a huge shock to the system. I used to leave work at the end of the day absolutely exhausted. Now, 20+ years in, I’ve adjusted.

      Reply ↓
      1. Great Frogs of Literature*

        Also, the sort of independent work you’re describing is really difficult for a lot of people! My job has a lot of what the workplace calls “independent work” but I’m not just sitting down at my computer with no structure and pulling work out of thin air. I usually have previous examples that I can start with, and coworkers I can talk to when I get stuck, and often a lot of built-in intermediate deadlines so it’s obvious what I should be working on next.

        The kind of work I’m imagining based on your description is different from most office work in the same way that learning a language solo by self-study is different than learning it in a class with a teacher, or an immersion environment. (And most people find it much more difficult.)

        As for what you can do about it:
        – Redefine what you’re trying to do. If you were going to successfully magically shift from being a full-time student to actively working on your project 40 hours a week, you would probably have done it by now (and would be a particularly exceptional person). Is this the sort of project where thinking about it in the shower, or while taking a walk, or while you’re cooking means that when you actually sit down to work, you will work better and faster? Then I think it’s okay to count the thinking time. (I don’t count that sort of time for my job, but there have definitely been times when my on-the-clock output is better as a result of my off-the-clock musings, and there are days when my on-the-clock output is not so great or I’m writing AAM comments, so I figure it comes out in the wash.)
        – Give yourself as much structure as you can. That might look like deadlines, or detailed to-do lists. If you’re struggling to do work, figure out if it’s because what you’re trying to do isn’t sufficiently well-defined, and if that’s the case, try to give yourself a better definition before expecting yourself to do the work.
        – If part of what you’re struggling with is the physicality of actually sitting down and working for 40 hours — it’s okay to not do that! Get up and walk around at least once an hour (it’s probably better for your health anyway!) Consider tools like the pomodoro method (you can google it, but basically alternate fixed periods of work and break).

        Reply ↓
    3. Cafe au Lait*

      No one works forty hours a week. I probably spend twenty hours working on projects, five hours putting out fires/tracking down information, ten hours covering the front desk because of staffing shortages with the last five doing “professional development” like reading Ask A Manager.

      Reply ↓
      1. Ally McBeal*

        Ha! I work in a billable industry and I always log at least 5 hours a week of “professional development” aka reading the news and AAM. Another 5 to “misc admin” like email management, goal setting, etc. Another 2-3 for socializing on the days I’m forced to be in the office. We’re told what our productivity goals are and my manager regularly assures me that I’m within normal boundaries for that, and I’m getting all my work done on time, and I shouldn’t worry so much.

        Reply ↓
    4. Fly on the Wall*

      Also, depending on what your job is you likely we won’t be working on the same thing for the whole work week. In all my jobs there was always variety, that keeps my focused.

      But I do have times where it is a struggle, that is also just life. We aren’t meant to be on all the time either.

      Reply ↓
    5. Hlao-roo*

      Seconding RealityBitez that most people don’t actually work for 40 hours a week. People with jobs make a cup of coffee, chit-chat with coworkers, go to the bathroom, etc. throughout the day. I think step one is to remove the expectation from yourself that you will sit down and churn out work for 40 hours each week.

      For step two, have you tried the Pomodoro method? The Pomodoro method is to set a timer for 25 min. Work for 25 min. When the timer goes off, take a 5 min break (bathroom, stretch, short walk, scroll on your phone, etc.). After 5 min, set the timer for 25 min and start working. If you’re ever in a good flow state when the timer goes off, you can keep working instead of taking a break. Sometimes all you need is a less-daunting goal (work for 25 min right now) than a daunting goal (work for 8 hours today) to get started, and then working is easier after that.

      Also, if you do find the Pomodoro method works for you, count the 25 min of work + 5 min break as 30 min of work for your advisor! This goes back to step one.

      Reply ↓
      1. HowDoesSheDoItAll?*

        Agree with all the commenters. Highly recommend the Pomodoro method. Also, you need to loosely define “working.” I’m required to work in an office 40 days a week. They pay me to be available, in the office, 40 hours a week and to meet my deadlines.

        Reply ↓
    6. Time Zone Confusion*

      I think of it as “dedicating 40 hours toward being available to work” not actually working every minute of 40 hours. Your brain needs breaks and downtimes if you’re doing focus work. I put myself in the situation where I could work – I’m in my office, my laptop is open, I’m available – for more or less 40 hours. I take plenty of 10-15 minute breaks in that time plus one afternoon walk while I’m thinking of vaguely work-adjacent things.

      Reply ↓
    7. Charlotte Lucas*

      Sometimes what looks a lot like socializing or taking a break actually is work.

      And sometimes part of work is just… waiting. For example, I had to do some big uploads this morning that use up a lot of data. I literally closed most of my programs and initiated the uploads. Aside from checking on progress that was the only “work” I could do for the better part of an hour.

      Reply ↓
    8. cmdrspacebabe*

      I see ADHD has already been mentioned – whether or not you have a diagnosis, some of the common coping techniques might be a helpful experiment. If you’re just trying to Power Through all 40 hours without much structure, maybe try the Pomodoro Technique:
      – Set a timer (an actual timer that will ring/distract you somehow) for 15-25 minutes. Making it time-limited usually makes it easier to sit down – ‘just 10 more minutes, I can do that much!’
      – After the timer goes off, stop working and take an active break (something involving movement, ideally – go for a walk, do some stretches, run an errand)
      – Come back, set a new timer, repeat, with longer breaks every few sessions

      Reply ↓
      1. cmdrspacebabe*

        Actually I should also second the other comments here that actually Doing Tasks for fully 40 hours a week isn’t realistic for most people, even if they don’t have concentration issues – it’s just not how brains are wired. I’ve learned to count things as ‘work’ that don’t seem like ‘tasks’, because ultimately they do contribute to my performance – stuff like:
        – Reading the news and staying up to date on industry stuff
        – Relationship-building with coworkers (including a reasonable amount of personal chats)
        – Just Thinking About Stuff (i.e., processing new information, making connections with my work, and figuring out how to implement what I come up with)

        Reply ↓
    9. Expectations*

      I had 90+ hours of work to do per week. So if I wanted decent grades and didn’t want to fall behind I put in the time. Maybe the work isn’t interesting enough to hold your attention, in which case maybe you’re majoring in the wrong thing?

      Reply ↓
      1. ThatGirl*

        I can’t think of ANYTHING I like well enough to put in 90 hours a week, that’s bananas. The human brain was not built for that.

        Reply ↓
        1. Tiny Clay Insects*

          Agreed, ThatGirl. The metric for deciding if something is the right major is absolutely NOT “would you happily work 90+ hours a week on it?”

          (That’s 18 hour days if working 5 days a week, or close to 13 hour days if working 7 days a week, for reference.)

          I’ve taught at a university for over a decade. This is not at all the expectation for our students, even our most hard-core engineering majors.

          Reply ↓
      2. ¿Really?*

        This is an odd comment. Self-congratulatory, critical of the OP and containing no actionable advice. OP, don’t take it to heart.

        Reply ↓
      3. Ally McBeal*

        Yeah, no to all of that. Most people taking 12-18 credits don’t have 90 (!!) hours of work. And any job that requires you to work more than 40 hours/week better be paying you out the nose for it – I wouldn’t accept less than $500,000 USD for a job requiring 90 hours/week every week.

        Reply ↓
    10. HappyMarketer*

      Yeah I agree with the comment that it’s not 40 hours straight. For my job (marketing) there’s also a lot variety to tasks so it’s rare to be working on one thing for hours straight, and then you have meetings, emails etc to deal with.

      I find I can struggle to get myself focused and what helps me is setting a timer for 45 mins, and saying for the next 45 mins I will not check my phone, browse the internet, get coffee etc and then I permit myself a 10 minute break to do those things guilt free. By my second round of 45 mins I start to find it easy.

      But also… sometimes you will be bored. Even in cool jobs! Some work is better than others but accepting that some days will be mind-numbing helps.

      Reply ↓
    12. Qwerty*

      Part of working is non-focused time. Personally I found work to be easier than college or internships.

      Things you aren’t tracking but will be part of office life:
      – Chatting in the break room while getting your morning/afternoon coffee. These team bonding moments make work conversations easier and often veer into work related stuff
      – Meetings! Company All Hands, Department announcements, etc
      – Paperwork, Emails, etc

      Reply ↓
    13. Chirpy*

      In a “real job”, you normally aren’t working on one single thing for 40 hours per week, like you are with this project. You check emails, talk to coworkers, talk to customers, answer the phone, etc. Most people switch between several tasks each day. Even if you are focusing on one project, you take breaks and lunch. You get up from your desk to get stuff off the printer, or leave your work space to go to the stock room to get supplies.

      Humans really aren’t built to do sit still and stare at a glowing box for 8 hours a day, five days a week, or even concentrate deeply on anything for multiple hours at a time. You may have to try a few things to find out what works best for you, but the Pomodoro Method can be really helpful – work for 45 minutes, then take a 5 minute break, or stop and stretch/get some water at the top of the hour, etc. Some people work best if they can block off a 2-3 hour chunk somewhere with no distractions (no phone, email, internet, etc).

      Reply ↓
    14. Danish*

      Along with the people who are saying many office jobs don’t work 40 literal hours of 100% focus, even if you are working most of those hours it’s usually not on the same thing. Working 40 hours on one project with no variation is pretty uncommon, usually you have a little leeway to give up on the teapot painting and worry about brush cleaning for the afternoon, or whatever.

      Reply ↓
    15. Wallaby, Well I'll Be*

      I’ve never worked 40 hours in a week in my life. I’m not sure I’ve ever worked 20 hours in a week. I do MAYBE 3 hours of work a day. Obviously people in different industries will have vastly different “actual work” hours, but I’m nearly 40 and if I had 40 hours of actual work to do in a week… Well, I simply wouldn’t. No thanks!!

      Reply ↓
    16. Juanita*

      There is good advice in this thread. Another suggestion: Block off chunks of time in 15-60-minute increments on your calendar (Google calendar works well for this) for each task you want to get done that day. Try to avoid chunks that are more than 2 hours by breaking down large tasks into smaller ones, e.g. instead of a 2-hour block to “write two pages,” break it down into 15 minutes for initial desk research/brainstorm, 15-minutes to write a quick outline, 1 hour for writing, and 30 minutes for revisions. As others said, schedule in 15-30 minute breaks throughout the day. Try this for a week, and see if it helps!

      Tools like Motion (usemotion dot com) can help with prioritization, if you are working on multiple projects at once. An online Pomodoro timer can also help, especially with getting started on tricky tasks.

      Reply ↓
    17. LaminarFlow*

      TBH, welcome to the professional world of work!

      There will be ebbs and flows of what your work needs from you (ex: Accountants right now, vs Accountants in the off season) as well as what you will give to your work (ex: a major illness or life event where you can do the minimum at work to fulfill obligations, but nothing beyond that.)

      I can’t help but think your advisor stressed the whole “40 hours of work” because they are preparing you for the professional world. Cool. I wouldn’t tell them this hot tip, but employers are usually pretty pumped when employees can simplify things/take less time to complete a task, with no adverse effects on output quality. Just something to keep in the back of your mind when you are being lectured about 40 hours…blah blah blah, but you have noticed that you need 30.

      Reply ↓
    18. RagingADHD*

      Bear in mind that 40 hours at a traditional office job usually includes stuff like waiting for computer updates or long boot cycles, short bathroom / water breaks, some amount of mundane work like setting up or clearing your desk every day, planning your to-do list, making phone calls, reviewing work done previously when you pick up a task, filling out your timesheet or doing HR-related forms, reading emails and clearing your inbox, etc etc etc.

      Even if you avoid long periods spent on unproductive distractions, you aren’t mentally focused on a single task or project for 40 hours straight.

      If you were “billing” 40 hours of mental time on a single project, you’d expect to spend 50 – 55 “work hours”, at a bare minimum.

      Also, for knowledge work like law, writing, or certain types of consulting, the time you spend outside of the office thinking about / digesting / brainstorming the project is also “billable” time.

      Reply ↓
    19. BlueberryGirl*

      Okay, confession. No one works 40 hours a week on the same thing (or at least, no one I know does.) So, I am in a public services position, which does mean I have to be at the office the hours we are open. Here’s how today is shaping up to show you what I mean.

      So, I get to work at 8am and get ready to open up.

      After that, I worked intensely on a project that takes a lot of focus for about an hour. Then I took a 15 minute break, walked around and straighten up some public areas that always need it. I was asked a few questions, dealt with some minor stuff, and then I came back to my desk and am on AskAManager answering your question.

      At 10am, I have a coffee meeting with a colleague for some brainstorming. I trust my student assistants to handle the front desk while I’m gone. They have my cell number to call me if there’s an emergency, but there are also back up supervisors.

      At 11am, I have another meeting that could have been an email and I am dreading. I will spend it online shopping. It’s on Zoom.

      At 12pm, I have another meeting I actually care about. This one I will need to pay attention to. Generally I hate lunch meetings, but it’s a timezone thing. So, not anyone’s fault that we have to do it at this time. Also, on Zoom.

      From 1pm to 2pm, I’ll be eating lunch. Probably go for a walk and then come back. After that, my afternoon will likely be one hour more of intense project.

      Then I’ll wrap up at about 4:30. Make sure all the procedures are followed to secure the place and shut down for the weekend. I need to make sure all my student assistants have gotten their timesheets in and then I’ll call it a day.

      Some days I work more like 45 hours (because I need to stay late), but some weeks I only work 35 (because I can flex a bit). A big part of my job is being paid to literally just “be here”. There needs to be someone around who manages the day to day stuff involved in running a place and that’s me. Part of what I love about it is that I can leave it at work when I go home.

      Reply ↓
    20. mreasy*

      I do NOT work for 40 solid hours. I do, however, get my work done on a daily/weekly/monthly basis. I straight up cannot use my brain for that much time every day!

      Reply ↓
    21. Tea Monk*

      Work expands to the time you give it. I’d find some tasks and benchmarks to organize myself and not worry so much. I sometimes forget entire parts of my job exist simply because there are so many tasks, and if I worked without a break for 12 hours a day I’d never finish and would be entirely burnt out. I also include drive time so if I drove 2 hours that day it’s fine to only get 6 hours in lol

      Reply ↓
    22. Unauthorized Plants*

      I have recently made peace with how “little” I work: I put little in quotes because I strongly suspect my breaks/distractions appear to be much larger to me than they actually are, and I’ve come to realize that they are probably part of my process. This process seems to be working since I have received the highest ratings possible in my last three performance evaluations (I do have a new boss, so that could change this year–who knows?!) and have never received lower than the average, you-are-doing-just-fine sort of evaluation in my almost 20 years of working.

      I would also characterize myself as someone who struggles to get tasks done…except that I don’t miss deadlines and when I go back over what I’ve done in a week/month/year it turns out that I have, in fact, CLEARLY NOT struggled to get tasks done. Success for me tends to feel like a struggle, if that makes sense? This is really impractical/useless to hear in advance of turning in your Big Final Project, but if you receive high marks on it despite your focus struggles that is something you should factor in to How I’ll Hack Full Time Work moving forward.

      Reply ↓
    23. Hyaline*

      I may sound like a jerk here, but as a college prof with a graduate degree, I’m finding it very difficult to imagine an undergrad project that could possibly take 40 hours per week for an entire year or even semester. You’re frustrated attempting to log 40 hours per week on it because no job would have you doing a project like that from 9-5 every day. Most jobs have you balancing a lot of different tasks with larger projects–you’re not just plugging away at The Thing day in and day out. You’re also answering emails, putting out little fires, in meetings, doing trainings, assisting with This or That or picking up the slack on That Other Thing, and you’re left with maybe 3-4 hours a day on your Major Project (if you even HAVE a so-called primary project in your particular work setting and role!). So put that worry out of your mind–school is not like work, and any advisor who tries to make it like work is (sorry not sorry) probably rather out of touch (it happens…a LOT).

      Now, getting distracted and not completing tasks is a different story–you probably need to hash out your needs in terms of getting work done and what strategies will work for you. There are good suggestions to try here–if some don’t work for you, that’s ok, try something else (pomodoro does not work for me, for example, but I know people who swear by it). Part of what is transferable here is learning some of your skills and weaknesses at directing your own work! But I’d ditch tracking your time if at all possible and focus on doing good work, not logging hours.

      Reply ↓
      1. Student*

        @Hyaline, I think your explanation is spot-on. I’m a re-entry student who is also working and my work days are so much more varied. Textbooks make my eyes glaze over but on-the-job training is a more active type of learning. I struggle to put in a solid 6-8 hours of schoolwork, but I stay engaged at my job (as long as I have tasks to do).

        Reply ↓
    24. NotaMac*

      Can you reframe from ‘putting in hours’ which focuses on the wrong thing – presentism – with no-one there to see you – to a reasonable plan to break down the work? I think your professor is trying to say ‘think of it like a job’ not ‘sit for 40 hours for no good reason’. I think you’ve taken it that way and it’s actually stopping you achieving things bc you’re thinking ‘I have to be here another x hours anyhow’. It’s why most of us work faster/better with an approaching deadline.
      You also might be struggling *because* you think it’s the way it will be going forward! Reality is work days are varied and include meetings and chats … not forcing yourself to sit in a library 40 hours.

      Reply ↓
  16. MadFed*

    RTO question—my officemate smells like cigarette smoke! How should I handle it?

    I work in a smallish room split into two cubicles. I absolutely adore my new office mate, but she smokes and both she and her things smell like it. I’m really sensitive to it and the way we’re set up our HVAC mostly blows away from me, but is there another solution? A spray? A small air purifier? (Also I’ll probably get RIFed soon which may solve it I guess, but I’m not ready for huge investments of my money or social capital.)

    It’s not normally that bad, but the other day I could smell it on myself when I got home and freaked out.

    Reply ↓
    2. ruthling*

      if you get along well, maybe ask her if she has any ideas, such as wearing a smoking jacket that she stores away from your desks. A small HEPA and carbon-filtered air purifier can be used, put it between the two of you so the filtered air is blowing in your direction. And maybe ask facilities to check if there’s enough fresh air and exhaust for the space.

      Reply ↓
    3. JustaTech*

      There are sprays on the market but, and I can not emphasize this enough, do not get them. They are made for clearing the cigarette smell out of a car, and they work for a limited amount of time, but they’re like a bug bomb- you can’t be in the room when it “goes off” and the fumes it puts off aren’t good to breathe.

      (How do I know? My brother used to get them to “clear out” his room and cover up the fact that he had been smoking in the house.)

      Reply ↓
      1. Lizzie (with the deaf cat)*

        That gave me a horrible flashback to working in a small office with two men who were heavy smokers, probably 40 cigarettes a day each. The stench! I complained a lot about it (this was in the 1970s, when non-smokers were told they were just snobs). Then one of them brought in some kind of anti cigarette smell spray, which had an immediate impact on me and made me feel as if I had become furiously psychotic, it was bizarre. It only got sprayed once!
        It did send me down an interesting line of investigation of how we are affected by smells, and how they influence us more than we might realise.
        I second the use of an air purifier!

        Reply ↓
  17. Cafe au Lait*

    Why is window access such an equity issue in workplaces? My coworker and I have been trying, for over a year, to move our desks to an unused room where there are windows. Currently, we’re across the hall in a windowless space. We’ve got a giant open entrance so we can see the windows from where we’re sitting. We’re also the only two people in the department who are required to be onsite fulltime.

    The windowed room is being used for glorified storage. Years ago student interns would occasionally use the space but it’s had infrequent usage since we’ve returned in person.

    This move wouldn’t cost money (besides the salary of the facility guys who would move us). There are already desks, we’d take our computers. There’d be very little infrastructure upgrading needed.

    I’m so frustrated because the people who keep telling my coworker and I “No” 1) work from home most days, and 2) have windowed offices when they do come into work.

    Reply ↓
    1. Time Zone Confusion*

      Ohhh man you just reminded me that cubes by windows were a huge status thing in my last cubefarm, granted on the basis of seniority plus boss favoritism, and then they became something people realized they could request as an accommodation for I wanna say ADHD and *all hell broke loose.*

      Reply ↓
      1. Cafe au Lait*

        Oh, hey! Maybe that’s how we get “permission” to move over. I could see if my doctor would write a note for accommodations for my depression and ADHD. I know my depression is better when I go outside regularly.

        Reply ↓
      2. WestsideStory*

        If it were me, I’d just do the move after making sure you have good internet/phone connections in the room. Tell them it’s “temporary”. Or try asking for accommodation. Someone I know worked for two years in a windowless basement. The first year, her doctor diagnosed a vitamin D deficiency. The second year, the doctor said she had developed early osteoporosis. (She quit shortly after).
        Sunlight is necessary for health.

        Reply ↓
      1. Cafe au Lait*

        Coworker and I have talked about it. The issue is sometimes we work with confidential student information. The way the windowed room is structured, passerbyers would be able to read the computer screen.

        So, some adjustments need to be made, but again, nothing so egregious that would require a full remodel.

        Reply ↓
        1. Lifelong student*

          You can get a screen to put over your monitor which does not allow anyone to see anything unless they are sitting directly in front of the screen. We used them over 15 years ago- I’m sure they are better now. Or consider that the back of the monitors could be facing the windows.

          Reply ↓
    3. OxfordBlue*

      If I were you I’d be very tempted to simply organise the move myself and let everyone else find a fait accompli when they do come into the office. Is there a way you could make it seem as though some higher authority directed it done because they needed your current room for something else?

      Reply ↓
    4. Qwerty*

      Are they giving any reasons for the No? Is there someone you can escalate to?

      Would any of these people be ok if you used their office on their remote days? I’ve had a couple bosses who let me camp out in their space when not in use but we’ve usually had good relationships

      Reply ↓
      1. Cafe au Lait*

        It’s been escalated as high as it can go, and they keep kicking it downwards because it should be a decision made at a lower level.

        The reason for “No” is that space will be used for something. But the “somethings” are vague and there is no timeline.

        Reply ↓
        1. ashie*

          OK so whenever the “something” is identified and actually arrives they can move you back to the windowless office.

          You’re the only people who really care where you sit, just move.

          Reply ↓
    5. Jay (no, the other one)*

      I work in healthcare. Our administrative offices are in a section of the building with no windows and we’re there usually 30-40 hours/week. There is one large suite in the building that does have windows. It’s used by the team that monitors ICUs remotely. At night.

      Make it make sense.

      Reply ↓
    6. HowDoesSheDoItAll?*

      Wow, I have this same problem. I’m here for the suggestions. Sorry you’re also having to deal with this.

      Reply ↓
    7. Kimmy Schmidt*

      No advice, but solidarity. I just found out that when our building was designed they purposefully made spaces with windows into barely-used closets because of office “fairness”.

      Reply ↓
  18. AnonyMoose*

    Have an interview with a presentation that essentially involves assessing of the program is meeting needs and suggesting new ideas. Except every idea I can come up with for this kind of work, they are already doing it. Literally already super good at this area of work. *face palm*

    Reply ↓
    1. KitKat*

      Can you do the assessment part (all green checkmarks) and then make the ideas/recommendations around either future expansion of the program, or ways to ensure its long-term stability/sustainability?

      Reply ↓
    2. Strive to Excel*

      This sounds like a challenge for you, but good on whoever is running the program!

      Are there any public metrics or frameworks for similar programs you can use for guidance, both for internal and external structure of the program? Long-term stability – funding, resources, location, needy population; it never hurts to look at the next five years and say “what are some potential bowling balls that could be thrown our way and what can be do to prepare?” Propose a survey of the population you’re serving; what else could they need that would slot into what you’re doing? Is there anything they should focus on *less* – maybe they’re putting resources into Llama-grooming when your local population really only has hamsters, so it would be worthwhile cross-training all your llama grooming teachers as hamster-care teachers.

      Reply ↓
    4. improvement planner*

      maybe a plan-to-plan? That’s a period of anticipated planning and review of existing work combined with goal setting and planning for future priorities.
      Also, don’t underestimate the potential for ongoing review and monitoring of outcomes.
      These ideas come from continuous quality improvement (CQI) strategies.

      Reply ↓
  19. Anonymous Meerkat*

    I’ve been working at a Very Large Corp for about six years now. I have a job interview on Monday at a tech startup for a job that’s technically a step down from my current one, but which pays about 40% more, assuming I get near the top of the range (I have 20 years of experience where they’re asking for 2, so top of the range is not unrealistic). Extra week of PTO, similar health benefits if not slightly better. I’m not worried about answering the interview questions as I’ve got some good reasons for wanting to move to a step “down” (if the company expands from a team of two, I’d get to be part of building something, and that’s appealing.)

    That said, I am a little concerned about the practicalities in general. With one exception when I was newer to working, I’ve been working for Big Corps, and a startup, even one that’s been going for five years, feels less stable. I’m pointing out to myself that Very Large Corp has been laying off a bunch of people, including people who’ve been there 30 years, so stability’s not what it once was.

    I’d love to hear from people who made the switch from large not-going-anywhere employers to startups. Is it reasonable to ask what portion of their revenue comes from customers vs investors? How secure did you feel? What would you have changed if you could?

    Reply ↓
    1. KitKat*

      I haven’t ever worked in a Very Large Corp but I have worked at tech startups as well as more established small and midsize companies.

      In a start-up interview it would be very reasonable to ask about their current revenue, revenue growth trajectory, and investor funding/planned future rounds. You can ask follow-ups about what investors might be looking at in future rounds (i.e. do they have a growth target, or a revenue vs. spend target, etc.) In general the tech investor world seems to be moving from “growth at any cost” metrics toward “path to profitability” type metrics so you can factor that into your follow-up questions. All super normal topics to cover, although you should keep in mind that their answers will be optimistic (you kind of have to be optimistic to run a startup). Specifically if they’re quite small/early you should also ask about their current runway in terms of months/years.

      Reply ↓
      1. EmF*

        That’s really useful insight – growth at any cost vs path to profitability is a way of framing some thoughts I was having that I didn’t have the words for. Thank you!

        Reply ↓
    2. Hiring Mgr*

      If the startup is paying 40% more than the big company, and the big co is the one that has been having layoffs…which one is really more stable?

      I made a similar transition back in the 2008/9 recession. I felt secure in the new job but there were definitely some initial adjustments.

      Reply ↓
      1. Busy Middle Manager*

        Similar thought! In 2009 my job at big fortune 1000 company felt like a ghost town. Loads of job cuts, slow days, and “outsourcing” to cheap areas of the SW and SE USA.

        I left for a job at a “startup” (was really past that phase at this point, but it was in a growth mode) and not only was it beyond stable (until they did layoffs five years later:-)) but I grew my income and skill set way more than I would have at the fortune 1000. So I left with money in the bank and in my 401K, something that wouldn’t have happened had I stayed at that old job. Would’ve probably stayed broke. Something for OP to consider. Getting laid off in a few years won’t hurt if you accumulate wealth at said new job

        Reply ↓
        1. Anonymous Meerkat*

          100%. I’m also taking into account that employment insurance pays out “percentage of your salary” rather than a set amount where I am, so it’s much nicer to lose a high-paying role than a low-paying one. And yeah, savings. I already live within my means (six years of stable employment at Very Large Corp even on a customer service salary has let me pay off all my debts, so I’m currently pay-as-you-go on everything), so the extra would mostly all get socked away.

          All hypothetical until the job’s actually mine, obviously. I’ve never been in a position where I’m applying for a job while already employed before. It’s nice.

          Reply ↓
      2. Anonymous Meerkat*

        Exactly – stable as in “the company itself will continue to exist,” is what I meant. (I’m not terribly concerned about being laid off – I don’t ruffle any feathers, my KPIs are top of team, and my grand-leadership is speaking with me about growth/mentorships/next steps etc. But I also know that my “congrats, you got the highest possible raise” this year was a whole 1.22%, and that internal role changes can’t come with more than an X percent change, and there are no actual numbers available in terms of the range Y position earns, etc etc etc., so even if I DID grow within the company, I have no way of knowing that my salary would increase commensurately. They won’t even tell me what the range of my current band is.)

        Are you comfortable clarifying what those initial adjustments were? If not, no worries. I already appreciate the answer :)

        Reply ↓
    3. KitKat*

      Adding more as I think of it… you can also ask about their ideal exit (IPO, acquisition, or stay private and grow) and those timelines.

      I think realistically there just IS more risk and less stability at a startup. That can be great if there’s upside in the job itself and you’re comfortable with the possibility (have savings, sanity doesn’t totally ride on job stability). But that’s a call you’ll have to make yourself, most startups do not become unicorns and most startups do not stick around for 20 years. I don’t think you’re going to hear definitive answers in an interview that remove that uncertainty.

      Reply ↓
    4. Grasshopper Relocation LLC*

      I made this step from my first to my second job.

      The second company folded after seven months. And you know what? I was still glad I did it. The first one was a toxic nightmare, while the second was pleasant right up until our CEO lost all of our money to a crypto scam. I also grew a lot professionally. I would do it again, in fact, even knowing how it would end up.

      One thing—DO NOT take a freelance role under these circumstances! Payroll employees have more protections if the money runs out.

      Reply ↓
      1. Anonymous Meerkat*

        Crypto scam? Oh noooo.

        I’m a little optimistic in that they’re hiring to increase their customer service team, which indicates that their customer base is also expanding. The thing they’re making is something I saw and went “… ooh, that IS handy for business use,” as opposed to a solution looking for a problem, so that’s also promising.

        Freelance roles are not for me, but I appreciate the warning! Been there, done that, got burned. I do freelance, but it’s on my own terms in a completely different job type, and doing long-term as my sole source of revenue is not something that appeals.

        Reply ↓
    5. EMP*

      As you say, stability doesn’t always come with big companies anymore. I went from a medium but 20+year established tech company to a start up, and in the 5 years I was at the startup, the established company basically folded after a failed acquisition. The startup has had ups and downs since (and I left last year for another 20-ish year medium company) but I wouldn’t say it was “less stable” overall.

      One difference was while the benefits were OK at the start up, some like the 401k program weren’t up to par with bigger companies (i.e., no match for the first 4 years I was there). Depending on your state, you may also be moving to a company small enough to get out of employee protection laws. It wasn’t a deal breaker for me, and if they’re offering 40% more salary it may not matter in your case either, but that’s one thing to consider.

      Reply ↓
      1. Anonymous Meerkat*

        I’m not in the U.S. so employee protection laws aren’t a worry, fortunately, but that’s good advice that I hope will be helpful for any American folks wondering similar things! My current employer does have a pension-match scheme, but they also have a very low maximum ceiling on contributions relative to making the extra money. I’ve got an appointment for next week with a financial advisor to talk about options.

        Reply ↓
    6. JobSecurity*

      Any job can go away at any time. You have to expect that regardless and consider other factors – compensation, benefits, work-life balance, whether the work seems interesting, whether you like the people youll6be working with. etc – whatever is important to you.

      Reply ↓
    7. Qwerty*

      Been at 3 startups. Whenever we’ve hired people from corporations, they usually struggle with culture shock. I’d say 50% manage to coast (while annoying their coworkers), 25% get fired, and 25% do fine.

      1. Never count on a startup being stable. Many follow what I call a headcount roller coaster, where they get funding and hire a bunch of people, burn through the cash, lay off a bunch of people, get more funding and repeat. I’ve also had a startup with a promising future and decent funding call me up and say “we’re closing”, so I always give the advice to plan as if the job will go away tomorrow.

      2. Hours are long! Only one startup had work life balance, because it was in our mission. Even when I join one that brags about how great the balance is, I’m regularly working 50-60 hr weeks. Sometimes I’ve been 80-100hr weeks during crunch time. Crunch time comes often and lasts a long time

      3. Why are they paying 40% over market rate? Is it because they are using HCOL salaries like San Fran or NYC? Or is it because of the hours? How will this affect their burn rate? Will these high salaries result in a layoff because they are throwing money at talent?

      4. How do you like chaos? My ADD makes this a great environment for me because I find corporate slow and my brain wanders off. But I’ve had to fire multiple people who couldn’t adjust to startup life. They wanted to move slow, receive very detailed instructions, complained at our lack of processes. Startup land involves a lot of “figure it out” and building things out of duck tape (figuratively…and sometimes literally)

      Are you saying the team is two people or the company is two people? The smaller the company, the higher the risk and the greater the chaos.

      Remember most startups go under. VCs plan on 1/10 providing a return on their investment.

      Reply ↓
      1. Busy Middle Manager*

        I wrote a comment like the beginning of your comment, but deleted it because the person didn’t ask specifically about this. But since you brought it up, so will I!

        I saw most coworkers from larger companies struggle. They always think there is someone else there to do the unpleasant work. They also were quicker to blame, in environments where placing blame was sort of irrelevant; we just wanted to fix the problems. I also noticed more of a tendency to hide behind paperwork and excessive meetings. I also saw a few cases where they thought they should get a promotion or recognition for pretty standard projects, which caused awkward moments and tense relationships with people who’d never been in a fortune 100 type environment

        I had one coworker from a larger competitor struggle because her job had been higher paid box-clicking and form generation. She talked herself up in the interview, but then struggled, and then it slowly came out that Big Co’s positions were way more simplified/basic compared to our small company. Which is a good thing for people who want to stretch themselves.

        My issue with these situation was that everyone thinks they’re working well, so it created a lot of awkwardness.

        Reply ↓
      2. Hillary*

        Seconding Qwerty’s comment on chaos. I went from having a somewhat defined corporate role to owning everything. I like the change but it’s definitely not for everyone.

        Working for a startup (or smaller business) means wearing many hats. You’re expected to jump in and solve problems, there aren’t going to be formal processes or teams that are responsible for functions. If you like that it’s awesome and exhilarating. If you don’t like that it really stinks.

        The failure rate has gone up lately, the end of free money has exposed a lot of weakness. I think funds are expecting 1/20 success if they’re investing at all.

        Reply ↓
      3. Anonymous Meerkat*

        1) For sure. I’m in the “job application optimism” stage, admittedly, so I really appreciate the cautionary note.
        2) This is something I am going to ask about during the application process. One thing they do post-interview is a paid project with the team the applicant’s applying to; that’ll give me a better idea. As far as I can tell from their website, their customer service hours are 9-5 M-F only, and I’ve found for coverage-based positions like that there’s very little creep. Customer service is a good role for work/life balance and actually being off the clock. Which is good!
        3)They’re not paying 40% over market – they’re paying 40% over my current, and while my company has some pretty nice non-quantifiables and a laudable mission, we’re below market. This particular startup (one of the reasons I’m applying there – their level of transparency was really, really impressive) is pretty transparent about their salary calculations, and one thing they’ve done (per their website, anyway) is deliberately pay female-dominated roles like customer service above market rate because sexism has artificially depressed those salaries. Engineers and finance are at market, but customer service, admin/reception, HR, all above. Assuming they actually put their money where their mouth is, that’s pretty neat.

        4) I’ve worked in customer service for two decades – I’m very good at “do the thing in front of you, move on to the next thing”. :p My current role involves building and refining processes, and I like that, and frequently get annoyed at how slow fairly straightforward change is.

        The team’s about forty people, and they first made their product available for sale about five years ago. Currently the team I’d be joining is two people. I am definitely not brave enough to be the third person to join a company!

        These are all excellent things to think about. Thank you.

        Reply ↓
    8. Hillary*

      I’m slightly on the other side in that I’m running the startup after leaving corporate.

      Their path to profitability is super important. Presumably they’re doing ok on the revenue side if they’re expanding customer service, but it’s still important to understand. If they’re in software, annual recurring revenue is the main metric. Is growth scalable (ie can they grow revenue without throwing labor hours at everything)?

      The other big question for me is product-market fit and customer turnover. How many customers do they have? Are they retaining existing customers as well as gaining new ones? What’s the plan for that? Particularly if you’re leading customer service, are you also responsible for post-sales support and retention?

      For you personally, what role will you have in strategy? What’s the plan for product? And ask about the total compensation package, will you get options? (maybe no if they’re offering above-market salary)

      Reply ↓
    9. LaminarFlow*

      I have done this, and there is no way I will work for a startup again, unless I have the opportunity to dive into financials. How much debt do they have? How many funding rounds have they done? Who owns what percentage of this company? What is the competition for their product/service like, and do they have any applicable patents/copyrights on it, or is the market for this product/service already saturated? What is the lifetime revenue of this company, and what is the projected forecast for the current year? How did the growth happen?

      I don’t proceed with anyone who can’t provide detailed information on those questions, and I also decline anything that is pre-revenue.

      Reply ↓
    10. Pentapus*

      I went the other way: from startup to very large corp, due to layoff. is the start-up generating revenue? you want to ask about runway, which is how long they can keep going at current burnrate(how quickly they are going through the money) before they run out. have they always had one ceo? how is the focus changing over time? the things I found with the start-up, is that you have to be willing to wear many hats, and your focus can change really quickly. if you like things well planned out, start-ups may not be for you, it depends. all this being said, I much much prefer a start-up to a large company. good luck!

      Reply ↓
  20. Stella*

    Question about the timing of exiting a job where I’ve been working for less than three months — I’ve discovered my new job is not going to work out for various reasons. However, my peer will be taking FMLA leave soon, I suspect my manager is also job hunting, and we’re a 3 person department. I am job hunting but also able to resign without a job lined up. I’m trying to thread the needle of staying as long as I can without leaving my manager to do the work of the entire department but also maybe stay long enough to see a temp hired for my peer (which I don’t know if that’s going to happen or not). How do I decide when to resign? I know that there’s never a really good time but what sort of questions should I be asking myself or checkpoints to look for?

    Reply ↓
    1. Fly on the Wall*

      IMO resign when you want to, while I am a loyal employee I am more loyal to myself and my family. If something happened to your tomorrow and you were unable to work they would make it work, same if you leave tomorrow

      Reply ↓
    2. Glazed Donut*

      Agree with Fly on the Wall. Don’t make a decision based on the availability of other people in the office, or you may end up pushing it further and further down the line.
      For me, the tipping point was realizing that in order to stay in my then-current position, I had to become a mean and heartless version of myself (think: firing people who didn’t deserve it, fluffing up bullies, charging ahead with ethically questionable tasks). I knew the longer I stayed doing that kind of work, the more of an imprint it would have on my future work self when I eventually went elsewhere. I did the math with my savings and timed my exit so that my last dr appointment with work-provided healthcare would still be covered.
      Good luck!

      Reply ↓
    3. Tio*

      If you’re a 3 person department, not a 3 person company, then when you leave is of no consequence. (It wouldn’t be in a 3 person company, either, but might have more considerations around recommendations/future applications.)

      Your manager is looking and probably not trying to thread the needle on when they leave. Look as hard as you can and leave when you have an offer. Your manager will either
      1. get help from another department or temp
      2. overwork herself for no reason
      3. quit or
      4. some things just won’t get done.

      However the only person with the power to make 2 happen or stop is them. And if they leave before you, the list above is your options too; don’t pick 2.

      Reply ↓
    4. MJ*

      Depending on your manager, if you are able/willing to quit without a job lined up and feel so inclined, it might be helpful to your manager to let them know you don’t think the job is working out. They can then factor that into whether or not to get a temp in to cover your peer. If they think you are going to be there they might not bother with a temp.

      But obviously don’t do this if it will be detrimental to you. Take care of yourself first – your manager / the company are responsible for looking after the business.

      Reply ↓
    5. LaminarFlow*

      Resign whenever it makes sense for you. It is very thoughtful to consider the impact of you leaving your small department, but it isn’t your problem. If your company decided to eliminate your job, they would do so when it makes sense for them, so take that same approach. Give whatever your industry standard notice is, and leave on good terms whenever you want to.

      Reply ↓
    6. M2*

      Resign when you want, but it is tough out there. I know multiple people and it took 12+ months for them to secure a role and this was before all the federal government and aid work.

      It is easier to get a job if you have a job, so honestly if you can, I would stay as long as you can until you can find something else.

      Reply ↓
    7. 1,000 Snails in a Lady Skin*

      This is hard for a lot of people to internalize but (unless you’re a manager) YOU are not responsible for your company’s staffing problems!

      If they are going to be seriously hurt with one person on leave, that’s not your problem, that’s your manager’s. Think: you’d be allowed to take vacation during this time! What if you also got hit by a truck / won the lottery next week and were out unexpectedly? What would they do?

      If they are going to be seriously hurt with 2/3 people down, that’s also not your problem, that’s your manager’s!

      Yes, it’s a tough situation for the manager to be in, but the staffing problems are a company issue, not YOUR ISSUE.

      (As a manager whose company prefers to have lean teams, I’ve had to chant these over and over to myself — the higher-up bosses made this decision, they have to deal with the consequences.)

      Reply ↓
    8. Ally McBeal*

      Remember that your company would let you go with ZERO days notice if they wanted or felt they needed to. You owe them no loyalty, especially after only 3 months.

      Reply ↓
  21. BRR*

    About six months ago my grand boss asked me to take over some of my manager’s work because my manager had too much on her plate (he asked with her knowledge). I said yes but only if we could apply to get me a promotion, which he begrudgingly said yes to (you know where this is going). My manager strongly thinks I should be promoted, helped me put together all of the documents, and has been hounding my grandboss about it but grandboss just keeps stalling. It was always clear he didn’t think I should be promoted for this but I’ve reached my limit.

    I have an overall plan for how I’m going to handle things , but I have two specific questions:
    1) I’m going to ask grandboss next week what the status is (everything so far has been through my manager which is just making it easier for my grandboss to avoid the situation). I know he’s going to mumble and say something along the lines of it was never promised or never guaranteed. How do I professionally say, “you’re lying because you wanted to take the easy way out. I would have never agreed to take on this extra work without a promotion?” I essentially want to make sure I keep him focused on the promotion and that I don’t end up debating what is a fact.
    2) Any tips or advice on containing my rage that he flat out lied to me and has made me lose out on thousands of dollars while working my tail off?

    Reply ↓
    1. WantonSeedStitch*

      Do you have anything documenting that he said yes? Was it a clear and unambiguous, if still grudging, yes? If so, refer to that documentation. “In your email from [date], attached, you indicated that I would receive a promotion to [title] upon taking on tasks X, Y, and Z. I am currently doing the work of a [title] since taking on those tasks, and my salary is not commensurate with the market rate for that position. Can you give me an idea of when that promotion will be put through? I’m assuming that given I’ve been doing the work since [date], the promotion will be back-dated to then.”

      If he stalls again or says no flat out, it’s time to start looking for another job, because he’s just going to keep taking advantage of you.

      Reply ↓
    2. Lurker*

      You can’t tell the grand boss he is lying. But this tells you how he does business and is not likely to ever promote you. Dust off your resume and start looking for something else with the new skills that you have demonstrated.

      Reply ↓
    3. Parenthesis Guy*

      Sounds like the grandboss was clear that he’d let you apply for a promotion but that he wasn’t going to support it.

      I think you can ask the grandboss for a meeting to discuss the status of the promotion, and what he thinks you need to do to get promoted or to improve your case. If you don’t think that what he wants you to do to get promoted is reasonable, you can ask to have the work you took on reassigned to someone else. That won’t go over well though, and the grandboss may say no. The grandboss may also decide you’re not a team player, and not consider you for future promotions.

      You may be happier just trying to get a new job elsewhere.

      Reply ↓
    4. MJ*

      I wouldn’t call grand boss out for lying – it’s not likely to help. I would lean into reiterating that you were very clear at the time that you were only willing to take on the additional work if a promotion was involved, and how can you make that happen.
      If he doesn’t provide a path to promotion, then as others have said you unfortunately may need to think about moving on.

      Reply ↓
    5. Mariana Twonch*

      Start a job search. There’s no leverage like another offer. It helps with the rage too. I currently have the best job I’ve ever had thanks to rage-applying.

      Reply ↓
      1. Ally McBeal*

        I rage-applied to a job between Day 1 and Day 2 of a conference I was running. I really liked what I did (and around 50% of my coworkers), I was just sick of our jerk clients and our sales team that enabled them. The new job ended up being fantastic.

        Reply ↓
    6. LaminarFlow*

      If you have documentation of your skip level saying that this extra work is promo-worthy, bring it up.

      Also, you MUST control your rage/anger/frustration when talking about this to your manager/skip level. You have every right to be angry, but a mature person who is worthy of a promotion will express objections in a thoughtful way that is based on facts, not emotional outbursts. Skip level boss might not agree with your findings, and the promotion might never happen. If that’s the case, you can ask (and document) Skip level boss what steps they need you to take to be eligible for promotion. Or, maybe you decide that you can do better elsewhere, which is always an option.

      Reply ↓
    7. Saturday*

      I would try to focus on what you said, “as you know, I didn’t feel it was feasible to take on the added responsibilities without being promoted fairly soon…”

      Reply ↓
    8. Artemesia*

      Don’t assume your manager has actually done anything to put you forward for promotion. I have seen many bosses that assure underlings they are doing everything they can but have done nothing and just blame the uber boss. They don’t want to waste their own political capital.

      They don’t want to promote you. Aggressively look for another position; in your own sweet time when something you actually want comes along, take it and give two weeks notice and don’t look back.

      Reply ↓
    9. Cheap ass rolling with it*

      A lot of advice has been on looking for a new job. I agree with that.

      But can you also say, “I’ve been doing extra work because we agreed on a promotion. Until I get that promotion, I am going to scale back to my original duties. ”

      If he pushes bash, it’s “Because it would be unreasonable for you to do extra duties without the recognition.”

      Reply ↓
  22. Anima*

    How many items do your to do-lists have on average?
    At work, I’ve got 4, which each taking 1-2 h of work for a 5 hour work day. It can get up to 7, which is when stuff gets dropped.
    In my private life it’s 7 average and up to 20. I feel like I have waaay to may stuff to do and way, way, way to many moving parts.
    What is your to do-list like?

    Reply ↓
    1. New Fed*

      I use a Trello board with.. so many things on it. Different categories include Today, Tomorrow, Recurring Tasks, New, This Week, etc.
      I try though to only have about 5 items on my Today list. A to-do list that is too long is so frustrating because you never get through it. But I do like to note things when they occur to me, so I can circle back when I’m ready to put it on today’s list.
      The Trello board eventually makes somethings gray/faded when they have been on their for a long time with no action.. that’s sometimes a sign, either I really need to take care of that thing, or it’s a project that’s just not going to happen.

      Reply ↓
    2. EMP*

      my personal life todo list is infinite, it’s just a matter of whether it’s a short term need or not
      My work list is maybe….5ish tasks at any given time?

      Reply ↓
    3. Jay (no, the other one)*

      My work list has three discrete administrative tasks which can each have up to 20-25 line items. Each line item takes from 5-20 minutes. Two of those categories must be finished in a specific time frame. The other rolls over and we get it done when we get it done. Plus I am often liable for urgent/emergent issues which must be dealt with.

      Personal to-do list: there’s a global “must do this at some point” list which is entirely in my head (not ideal), a mid-range list of things that have to be done in the next few weeks, and today’s list. The global list has maybe six? seven? things on it. The mid-range list has three or four and all will take at least an hour or I would have done them already (if something will take me less than ten minutes I do it as soon as I become aware of it). I feel overloaded and rushed if today’s list has more than three items – there are also things I need or want to do every day (like practice piano) and if the “today” list gets too large, those get squeezed out.

      Reply ↓
    4. Tammy 2*

      20-30 a week things on my work to-do list, which take anywhere from 5 minutes to several hours depending on what they are.

      Reply ↓
    5. HowDoesSheDoItAll?*

      Since becoming a parent, I never know when I’m going to get called because my kid is sick, etc. So I started only putting one big thing on my to-do list each day, and I focus on getting that one thing done, then working on the less important items if I have time. Sounds silly, but I’ve been more productive and I’ve been promoted twice now, so I guess it’s working?

      Reply ↓
    6. NotmyUsualName*

      Work – It varies a lot but on any given day between 40 and 100 ranging in time commitment from 5 minutes to 50 hours.
      Home – I rarely make lists so if I do it is something really unique so at most 4-5.

      Reply ↓
    7. Not That Jane*

      Personal to do list is split into daily or weekly recurring items (eg dishes, laundry, vacuuming) and one-offs (eg a doctor’s appointment, filing taxes). Daily I probably have 25-40 items on that list, between these two categories, BUT I keep myself organized by putting EVERYTHING on it so I don’t forget anything, eg taking meds, showering, etc.

      Work to do list is more recurring (ie a smaller list of things that recur very regularly) & usually has many fewer items. Maybe one “one-off” per day and three daily recurring items.

      Reply ↓
    8. Dark Macadamia*

      I just reorganized my whole Trello (for personal stuff) and my longest list, things I need to plan or schedule, has 15 items. This is big stuff like “plan family vacation” and little stuff like “schedule dentist.” My other 6 lists are 4-10 items each… so like, 60 things I need to do at some point? For work I generally have 1-3 daily tasks I need to complete during my planning time (I’m a teacher, so grading or lesson plans mostly) and maybe up to 10 things for the week.

      Reply ↓
    9. Meaningful hats*

      My to-do list at work has upwards of 100 tasks on it each week. Each task can take between 10 minutes and 2 hours, depending on what they are. The best way to describe it – most weeks I am working flat-out and am able to complete everything. Sometimes even with working flat-out I have to push tasks to the next week. Every so often I am not working flat-out and am able to take an actual lunch break once or twice. That last one is rare, though.

      Reply ↓
    10. JustaTech*

      My work to-do list is written out for the whole week, and broken down by day. This is because I often have things where I might have an experiment on Tuesday, so Monday has a whole bunch of prep, Tuesday is just “do the thing” and Wednesday is a bunch of clean up/wrap up, and then unrelated to-dos.

      My boss also asks us to fill out a shared calendar with everything we’re doing, regardless of if it actually needs to be done at a specific time, so I might write on my list or calendar that I am going to spend 2 hours on Tuesday afternoon writing a thing, but I may push it back to Thursday if something else comes up. (Or I’m not feeling it that day.)

      If I had just one running to-do list I would just collapse under the weight of it all.

      Reply ↓
    11. Ally McBeal*

      My (professional) to-do list is never-ending, but in a way that works for me. I keep a lined Moleskine, left page is for meeting notes and right page is for to-do items. I just keep crossing off and adding items until I run out of room and it’s time to turn to a new page (which are all marked with the days I started and finished the page). Usually I only have 3-4 time-sensitive tasks plus maybe another 2-4 horizon-scanning items. I also manage email by moving all finished items into folders, so the only emails in my inbox are actively in motion. Gmail’s filtering tabs don’t work for me but Outlook’s Focused/Other tabs are great.

      I don’t keep a private to-do list except on days/weekends when I have a TON to get done (like I have company coming and need to clean the entire apartment). I write on my bathroom mirror with dry-erase markers – and stay well-hydrated – so I can’t get distracted for too long without being reminded to keep moving.

      Reply ↓
    12. Old Hampshire New Hampshire*

      My work and home lists are quite large. For work, I go old school and write a master list down on a piece of paper. I colour code it depending on the stakeholder and then try to prioritise it (high, medium and low). Then I have a list for the week, made up of the regular tasks I need to do and the one off tasks. I try to use eat 4 frogs to deal with the highest priority for each day. I also try to block time out at the end of the week to prepare for the next week.
      It doesn’t always work – my manager has the art of passing their work on to me at the last minute down to an art. But I usually start the week in some kind of order :-)

      Reply ↓
  23. MightyHunter*

    How bad is using ChatGPT for cover letters? I’ve tried to edit them to sound like me, but honestly they already sound like me! It just would take me a lot longer to think of how to phrase things, but the result would be pretty similar. I’m not applying for jobs where there’s a ton of writing beyond emails to various stakeholders, so I’m not trying to show off my writing skills. Can hiring managers tell that they’re written by AI?

    Reply ↓
    1. ThatGirl*

      I think one of several problems you run into is that they have telltale phrases that a skilled manager might be able to tell. They always read very fakey to me. Surely you can find templated examples of cover letters that you can adapt to your own purposes instead.

      (I will say that I am very anti-ChatGPT anyway – not only is it bad on its face but it’s horrible for the environment.)

      Reply ↓
      1. Elle*

        We can also identify the fakeness of the letters. There’s overly corporate words and phrases used with no detail on the individual. I would use it as a starting point and add your personal touches and work highlights.

        Reply ↓
      2. foureyedlibrarian*

        I agree ThatGirl. Plus all the ethical issues (just look at LibGen, where Meta has basically stolen copy written books to farm them)

        Reply ↓
      3. Alisaurus*

        Plus when someone is sorting through dozens of applications at a time, it’s very easy to see which ones sound the same.

        I remember going through applications for a recent job opening I was helping with admin for, reading 20+ letters back to back, and thinking at least half of them sounded like they were written by the same person. There were at least several that were practically word-for-word identical.

        (I also found one that was almost word-for-word one of the AAM cover letters too. That was interesting.)

        Reply ↓
      4. Beans*

        Please don’t.

        I can tell and it’s an instant pass for me. I want to see how YOU express yourself. Unless I’m hiring for a writing role, minor grammatical mistakes aren’t going to be an issue.

        Reply ↓
    2. Merry go round and round*

      Try recording yourself reading what it says aloud, it will help you identify where it might sound a little off or like something you really wouldn’t say.

      Reply ↓
    3. MsSolo (UK)*

      Having done a recent hiring exercise, I couldn’t tell you exactly how many people used ChatGPT (though the one that said ‘company’ when we’re not one was a bit of a giveaway) but it was noticeable how average a lot of nicely written and easy to read applications were. Because that’s what ChatGPT does – it spits out the statistically average answer/sentence. I suspect we missed out on more than one candidate who would have had the right skills, but had AIed them into blandness. Of the applications we took through to interview, several were noticeably rougher written – choppy sentences, the occasional typo, jargon and acronyms specific to their current roles (not the one they were applying for) – but they scored highly because they were specific and detailed about their experience.

      Reply ↓
      1. Saturday*

        We got a lot of people using “company” when we’re not one before AI was available though – I think because people didn’t carefully edit the letter they used for other jobs.

        Reply ↓
    4. Qwerty*

      I equate ChatGPT output to horoscopes. At first it sounds eerily accurate or occasionally way off base. But then if you read the horoscopes for the other zodiac signs, you realize you have the same reaction to each of them and it loses it shine.

      ChatGPT cover letters generally blend together to the hiring manager who has received a dozen or more of them. I’ve had friends ask me to give them feedback on their cover letter and so far I have detected 100% of AI generated letters.

      Think of the cover letter as being in your voice. If you ran into the hiring manager in the elevator or walked up to them at a career fair, what is the real quick speil that you’ll give them while they are also skimming your resume? It doesn’t need to be perfect, just connecting the dots and helping give a little more of a person feel than a resume can.

      Honestly, I find the ChatGPT cover letters to be pretty week and usually just regurgate a combination of the resume + job description. The better ones come from people who put a lot of effort into the prompting and probably could have written their letter in less time. Where GenAI tools are really helpful is bouncing things off of – like realizing you said “I developed” too many times so you ask GenAI for some alternate examples or for help rephrasing a specific sentence. Use it to spark ideas rather than do the work for you.

      Reply ↓
    5. spcepickle*

      I both teach a master’s class (so I read lots of homework answers full of chatGPT) and hire people. The thing about chatGPT is it can be a great starting point. If it spit out a cover letter that you think reads well and sounds like you, than submit it. Chance are it will read like most other cover letters, which are mostly terrible. I would guess that the one chatGPT gave you is generic, repeats your resume and the job posting, and does not tell me anything about you, which is most of what I get from most cover letters. The only way I can tell for sure that someone used chatGPT is when I get a bunch of cover letters (or homework answers) that all use the exact same phrase which I know that I did not use in my lectures or job posting. Submitting a cover letter (any cover letter) means you can get through the application but unless you are a super strong candidate in experience or there is a small application pool it will most likely not get you an interview.
      Does your cover letter tell me: a) why you want THIS job (not a job, but this particular job), b) why you as a person with your experience would be good at this job, c) what you as a unique person bring to my company what makes you different then the 100 other cover letters I am reading. Cover letters are also your chance to guess my questions and answer them – are you moving from out of state, do you have a big resume gap, did you have many short term jobs before this one, are you making a career jump – cover letters are a good place to explain any of those types of things. These are things chat GPT can’t know, so they will not be in your cover letter. I know they are pain to write and I understand that it takes time to apply for a job. My answer would be chat GPT for jobs I am lukewarm about and more crafted cover letters for jobs I really want. You could do some science and see what your application to interview ratio is.

      Reply ↓
      1. Alisaurus*

        When I was last job hunting, I wrote a basic, templated cover letter that I would tweak slightly as needed for the lukewarm jobs and then would craft specific ones for the jobs I really wanted. It still made sure I answered the questions you list here but allowed me to still have something I made sure touched on the important things.

        Reply ↓
    6. LaminarFlow*

      I work in AI, and while I think ChatGPT is being applied to too many things that don’t need it/can’t use it properly, I loooooove it for use on cover letters. Of course, the output will depend on the input, but you already know that. And, if you are getting outputs that sound like you? Welp, good on the LLMs used to train ChatGPT.

      Definitely revise/remove/replace paragraphs where you have something better or more relevant to say. Personal anecdote about how your professional skills align with the job, but it isn’t a re-hash of your resume? Here’s your shot.

      ChatGPT is overly verbose, and outputs can usually be edited down. ChatGPT also likes to use a lot of dashes in outputs, so remove/replace as many as you can.

      Read it out loud. Do it again. Does it sound like something you & people in your industry would say? If so, done! If not, keep tweaking it until it sounds human, personal, and relevant.

      Reply ↓
    7. Elizabeth West*

      Honestly, you’re probably just better off searching for AAM cover letter posts and using that advice to write your own.

      Reply ↓
    8. Saturday*

      My advice is, use it as a starting point and then read carefully and edit for anything that sounds good but doesn’t really say anything. People will confidently say that they can tell, and sometimes they can… but they wouldn’t know about those times when they can’t tell.

      Reply ↓
      1. Sloanicota*

        To this, I would say, add at least a few truly custom sentences, ideally at least the first and last sentences if not a few in the middle. Maybe if you role-play telling someone why you’re excited about this job, or what you think you’re best at, and then write that down exactly what you said word for word, you’ll get some real, authentic tone. Because I agree even if the chat ones sound “good” they also often end up sounding bland and samey, so you won’t break out of the pile.

        Reply ↓
    9. JustaTech*

      I would suggest turning it around – write your own cover letter and ask ChatGPT to edit it, and then see 1) if you like it better and 2) *why* you like it better, and then write a new cover letter based on those things to submit.

      ChatGPT might still bland it down, but it will still feel more like you.

      Reply ↓
    10. Beth*

      Most people can’t easily identify the difference between a ChatGPT cover letter and a poorly written (but written by a human) cover letter. Most can easily see the difference between either of those and a good cover letter.

      ChatGPT produces generic results really quickly, and it can make sure that keywords from your resume and the job posting are included. But it doesn’t produce anything outstanding–it’s not thinking, it’s just aggregating a bunch of cover letters from its training data and spitting out an average result based on those inputs. It can include keywords you ask for, but it can’t connect the dots to explain how your background would translate to the role you’re applying for. It can generate a grammatically correct letter, but it’ll be pretty flat–it won’t make you sound passionate about your industry, or capture anything of your personality.

      If you’re treating the cover letter as a formality that you’re pretty sure no one reads, you might as well use it. (Of course, if you’re treating a cover letter as a formality, there’s a question as to whether you should bother with it at all. It’s often an optional field.) But if you think cover letters are a distinguishing factor in your field, it’s worth putting in the effort to write something that’s better than average.

      Reply ↓
  24. Annie*

    Hello commenters.

    I WFH, and want to have a more healthy lunch and avoid going out or just eating leftovers. I guess this is maybe work adjacent but I figure it fits here more than Saturday.

    What types of lunches are you having as a WFH employee? It feels easy to fall into the sandwich/chips/pop trap that I was used to when I was younger.

    Reply ↓
    1. WantonSeedStitch*

      I do eat sandwiches most days! But I accompany them with cut veggies and water instead of chips and soda. And sandwiches can be very nutritious. Whole grain bread, fillings that don’t always include processed meats…you can get creative. The other day I did toasted whole wheat bread with hummus, a fried egg, baby lettuce, cucumber, za’atar, and hot sauce. So good. You can also make batches of soup and freeze individual portions to nuke for lunch.

      Reply ↓
    2. Decidedly Me*

      A sandwich is not unusual for me, though normally a breakfast sandwich and no chips or soda. Ramen (homemade, not the packets) is another I’ll do. Deviled eggs. Egg or tuna salad with crackers. Quesadilla.

      If I need a snack, string cheese, fruit, or hummus and vegetables are what I try to grab.

      Reply ↓
    3. Elle*

      Have you looked into salad kits and grain bowls? There’s lot of recipes online for grain bowls. I also like to make soup for lunch to pair with a sandwich instead of chips.

      Reply ↓
      1. Plaidless*

        Seconding this. I follow the Mediterranean diet, so I eat a lot of cold salads and grain bowls. They are easy to prep ahead of time, and I like not having to mess with heating them up, so I can eat slowly while multitasking without running to the microwave over and over.

        Reply ↓
    4. londonedit*

      I’ll admit, I do often have leftovers for lunch! I live on my own, so I often have extra from the previous night’s dinner, and I often make sure I cook enough on one evening to give me a couple of extra lunch portions.

      Since I got my air fryer, though, I’ve become slightly obsessed with having jacket potatoes for lunch. I do them for about 4-5 minutes in the microwave and then crisp them up in the air fryer for about 20 minutes. Being British I generally have them with baked beans and cheese, but you could do whatever fillings you like (one of the things I like to do is make a batch of veggie chilli one evening, and then have that on a lunchtime jacket potato).

      In warmer weather I tend to have something like a bean or lentil salad – again you can make a big batch of that to last a few days, and you can put anything you like in it. Just tins of mixed beans or lentils, drained and rinsed, and then I do things like adding tomato/cucumber/olives/spring onion/feta. I also sometimes have those wok-ready noodles with stir-fried veg and a fried egg on top, or something on toast (again, baked beans, or maybe garlic mushrooms or poached eggs).

      Reply ↓
    5. Glazed Donut*

      I try to do healthier lunches when I WFH especially because my on-site days are not that healthy.
      The formula I’ve used with success and VERY minimal prep work: bagged chopped salad + rotisserie or pulled chicken. I’ll head the chicken up so it feels a bit more like a “cooked meal.” There are so many salad options that I don’t feel like I’m eating the same thing every day.

      Reply ↓
      1. Mid*

        I do the same. I get bagged salad kit (usually each bag works out to two servings for me) and then mix in either chicken, tuna, or tofu, depending on my mood. If I want something warm, I’ll do soup, especially veggie bean chili, or reheated leftovers from two days prior (so I’m not eating the same thing two days in a row, because I don’t like that.) Bean salads or kale salads are great for batch prepping because they taste better after sitting for a few days.

        Reply ↓
    6. ThatGirl*

      I do often eat leftovers, but I also keep various frozen things I can heat up fairly quickly for an easy lunch – for instance, pantry lo mein/udon/ramen noodles, frozen veggies and either some broth or some sauce makes a quick and fairly healthy noodle lunch. Or dried pasta + tomatoes + spinach + parmesan cheese. Nothing wrong with a sandwich, maybe swap in an apple and carrot sticks? Basically I make it easy for myself to eat fruits and veggies.

      Reply ↓
    7. HannahS*

      Oooh ok so I had the rare-for-my-field privilege of WFH for a few months and I LOVED how I got to eat better. All of these take less than 15 minutes to prepare. My go-to meals were:
      -Japanese egg-drop soup on rice
      -quick okonomiyaki
      -scrambled eggs, toast, and fruit
      -herbed omelette with cheese
      -quick stir-fried veggies on rice

      To make rice midday-friendly without owning a rice cooker, I made a lot of extra rice each time we have it, and use a measuring cup to make little “pucks” of rice. I use a medium-grain rice which sticks to itself. I slide the pucks into a ziplock, suck out the air, and freeze. The little puck heat up very nicely in microwave from frozen and are much better than rice that has been in the fridge.

      Reply ↓
    8. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      When you’re at home, it’s so much easier to have leftovers. Make a lasagna Sunday night, then just cut off a hunk the next day and microwave. Ditto chili, stews, pot roast.

      Not to mention salads – make up your mind what to include right when you eat it, instead of packing something early in the morning and hoping you’ll still want it at noon (and hoping things don’t wilt either).

      I’ve even been known to step outside and grill a pork chop while I’m steaming some vegetables on the stove.

      Reply ↓
    10. Busy Middle Manager*

      My fav is:
      Cold quinoa, boiled sweet potato, greens, cranberries, sunflower seeds, with salad dressing. Either a grey-poupon vinegar mix, or green goddess avocado oil one. Need to prep/let cool the prior night

      Otherwise it’s hummus and cucumbers or tomato soup on mashed potatoes (easy to make in 10 min)

      Or some sort of veggie pattie, tomato sauce, and rice. Or an Amys frozen dinner. They have really good Mexican ones.

      Reply ↓
    11. Alex*

      I definitely eat a lot of leftovers! I live alone, and will generally make 3-4 dishes for the week, and eat them for both lunch and dinner. This week I have lentil soup, turkey burgers with a side of carrot and celery sticks, a dish with braised vegetables and sausage, and homemade chicken tenders with roasted vegetables and potatoes. I’ll just bring the most portable items for lunch at work, but otherwise don’t really differentiate between office and home lunches.

      Some things I keep for “emergency” meals include protein pasta, frozen vegetables, eggs and toast, canned tuna, peanut butter, or frozen fish sticks.

      Reply ↓
      1. Annie*

        Thanks. I live alone as well, so I usually will eat the leftovers for dinner two nights in a row and try to do something different for lunch. I appreciate your ideas, though!

        Reply ↓
    12. KG*

      I keep a variety of pickles, olives, artichoke hearts, roasted red pepper, etc on hand and make a quick, hearty salad with greens, tuna (or whatever meat is left over from another meal), shredded cheese, and a bunch of toppings. It makes it satisfying and filling.

      Reply ↓
    13. Zona the Great*

      No lunch for me. I instead choose a late hearty breakfast like a burrito or scramble. I find that I don’t want anything heavy until around 4 or 5 which is perfect for me. I don’t like eating a heavy mid-day meal if I am to remain productive after.

      Reply ↓
    14. Admin of Sys*

      Breakfast tends towards sandwhiches, but lunch is almost always something actually cooked. Today I had lentils and wild rice, plus spinach and mushrooms, and bits of the shredded rotisserie chicken. Yesterday was…spinach curry, I think? (I like spinach). Or it may have been chicken soup.

      But I also still tend to batch cook or prepare so lunch only takes heat-up time. Rotisserie chicken or thick cut deli meat, frozen veggies, quick rice (or I make a big batch and freeze portions), that sort of thing. So I’m getting ‘real food’ but I’m almost always heating it up in the microwave.

      Reply ↓
    15. Hyaline*

      I try to cook anticipating leftovers–so I just had a delicious broccoli and gnocchi dish that that I made earlier this week for dinner! Investing in good glass snapware or other containers for leftovers (especially if they can go from freezer to microwave to dishwasher) is a real game changer. If you usually cook a couple times a week, double your batches, and put a few meals in the freezer. After a couple weeks, you get a nice stock of meals so you’re not eating the same thing every day. And since you’re home, you have the luxury of a full kitchen right there, so stuff like beans and rice or risotto or soups can get jazzed up with toppings that would be a pain to tote to the office. I also try to keep a tupperware of chopped lettuce for salad in the fridge all the time, and throw whatever on top for a meal.

      Reply ↓
      1. JustaTech*

        I pack my lunch for the office and always plan for leftovers – like Sunday and Monday night meals almost always make leftovers for lunch. When my spouse does WFH that’s what he eats, and with the exception of the deep days of COVID that’s what I do too.
        (Then I would make soup or a really hearty salad.)

        Reply ↓
    16. Jay (no, the other one)*

      I don’t crave a lot of variety so I eat yogurt, fruit, and cheese most days. Sometimes leftovers if there’s something that sounds good and that I’m not saving for dinner. We usually plan for one night of leftovers each week.

      Reply ↓
    17. You can call me flower*

      I do I lot of soups. I make a big pot at the beginning of week and eat leftovers. I also I like making extra protein for dinner and adding it to a wrap or on top of a salad. Honestly prepping the ingredients ahead of time helps me a ton. I just toss it all together.

      Reply ↓
    18. Chauncy Gardener*

      Leftovers from last night’s dinner. Cereal and fruit. Soup and toast. (I usually have a ton of frozen soup in the freezer that I cooked in bulk.

      Reply ↓
    19. Qwerty*

      Are you open to leftovers from lunches rather than your dinners? Most of my suggestions involve making 4lunches at once.

      Stir Fry – I’m lazy and get the Family sized pre-mixed bag of stir fry veggies, then add a can of chicken. Usually get 3-4 meals out of this. Can reheat in a fry pan or in the microwave depending on mood/available time. Add noodles to make the dish last longer.

      Soup – In the winter I make a big pot of soup each week like Chicken and Rice, Beef Barley, etc. Again, lazy person who uses frozen bags of soup veggies or mirepoix, cans of chicken, etc whenever possible so its mostly toss things in and let it simmer a long time. I have fun switching up the grains (wild rice, purple rice, farro, barley, noodles) which has an impact on flavor. I also feel like I get less sick / recover faster when doing this.

      Slow Cooker meals – A lot of these are chicken based, like honey garlic chicken. I find if I cut the chicken breast in half, its more of a lunch portion sizing (though to be honest I originally did it just so it fit in the crock pot better). Usually I double the sauce amount – lot of sauce in the leftovers, but keeps everything moist.

      Consider dinner food for lunch? There are some one sheet pan meals for summer that are basically meat + veggies. I tend to prefer a larger lunch and something small for dinner.

      Reply ↓
    21. Honeybadger*

      I live alone and WFH. How I handle lunches is to make two portions for dinner and package the second to heat up for lunch. That way, I only have to reheat lunch and don’t have to waste time doing any lunch prep. I also prefer a hot lunch over cold sandwiches. Since my dinners are thinks like fish, veggies, and a bit of starch like rice, couscous, or potatoes, it works out pretty well. Things you could do is prepare a bit of lean protein the night before to reheat and have it with a large salad and some fruit for lunch. Like..fresh spinach with some pear slices, pomegranate seeds, crumbled gorgonzola cheese, bit of toasted pecans, and some cold chicken with a balsamic vinegarette on it is lovely.

      Reply ↓
      1. Annie*

        That sounds really good. So a lot of salads are recommended, along with other toppings for sandwiches and appropriate leftovers.

        Reply ↓
    23. Storm in a teacup*

      I purposely go for leftovers when I can! I live alone so will tend to make two portions and save for the next day lunch or freeze for the following week.
      Omelettes with lots of veggies chucked in and jacket potatoes with beans and cheese are great too. Grilled halloumi with veggies and some quinoa or grains from a packet and a good dressing work well.
      I have an instant pot and find it really useful for prepping stuff like Mexican style rice or Indian khichidi (a proper comfort food for me). I can chuck something in there in the morning and put it on a timer setting so it’s ready and hot for lunch.
      Finally on the very rare occasion I have hardly any time at all some cereal or apples and peanut butter keep me going

      Reply ↓
    24. Storm in a teacup*

      Also I don’t know about you but whilst I love cooking the sheer drudgery of trying to decide what to eat and then cooking it every day can be a pain.
      Living alone means I get to choose what I fancy but on the downside no one to help cook.
      I’ve found getting a meal box for 2 meals (4 portions) a week a game changer. Meals are more creative, I have to think less but still enjoy the cooking aspect and it’s healthy. I’ve lost weight and am better at eating proteins etc.

      Reply ↓
    25. Sparkly Librarian*

      I do well with snacky lunches: cheese and crackers, hardboiled egg, cut cucumber and bell peppers, baby carrots, a piece of fresh fruit (or dried fruit), and usually something sweet. Other additions/substitutions might include yogurt, jerky or lunch meat, trail mix or nuts, leftovers, or a sandwich.

      Then I might get 2 days (plus an extra side the 3rd day?) from the bits I have in the office fridge, which I always appreciate in the morning because it means I don’t have to pack lunch that day.

      Reply ↓
  25. Anon for this*

    tldr: how do I stop being anxious about work mistakes that might have happened or not?

    More context (without details for anonymity):
    I got told secondhand that someone from my team might have done something that a partner is not happy with. It might be serious, or not ideal but not super serious, or just a misunderstanding depending on the exact situation. I also don’t know if it was me specifically ( I know at least one other person who was in the position to do the same mistake but that would also reflect badly on my project management skills). I know intellectually that unless the partner actually lets us know directly we cannot really do anything to apologize or rectify and my boss also agrees. But I still have a pit in my stomach every time I think about it and keep turning situations in my head. Does anyone have any tips to manage this anxiety until I get told more?

    Reply ↓
    1. Strive to Excel*

      Do you know what the thing is? Like, was it “partner didn’t like that you emailed a client directly”, or “partner isn’t happy with your team for reasons unspecified”? If you know, can you check to see if it actually happened? I know you say you can’t rectify until the partner says something, but sometimes you can quietly check if things were done according to the book or not. Then if partner does come to tell your team something you can be prepared with “I haven’t been aware of any direct emails without your say-so” or “we did, sorry; since then we’ve had retraining on direct client contacts and it won’t happen again” (running with my earlier example here).

      Reply ↓
      1. allx*

        This. Figure out all the facts you can (and decide whether you agree the thing that happened is objectively wrong) to be prepared for the uncomfortable conversation if it comes to that.

        Or go the partner and say, I heard you may be unhappy about Thing. What can I do/here’s what I can do to address that.

        Reply ↓
    2. Mariana Twonch*

      This is essentially unsubstantiated gossip. If I were you, I would think hard about the person who told you this “information” and what may have been their reasoning for doing so.

      Reply ↓
    3. Neither Here Nor There*

      I have anxiety, and what works for me may not work for you, but here’s what I’ve done!

      My brain can convince me that pre-worrying about something I can’t do anything about yet is good because I’ll be “prepared” for the worst-case scenario. What happens is that I am miserable while worrying and also miserable when The Bad Thing happens, and if it doesn’t happen, I was miserable for no reason at all. If I didn’t worry, I would still be miserable when it happens, but I would have spared myself that extra suffering. And if nothing happened, I’d never be upset at all! Consequently: waiting until it happens to feel bad always results in less misery. Sometimes, this knowledge helps me. (Usually not, though. Logic is not very good against the anxiety.)

      I also like to focus on what I can do. I make a list: if they tell me I made a mistake, I will write an apology. I will show my sincerity by doing X, Y, and Z. I will avoid making this mistake in the future by doing (whatever). Now I have a plan. If the bad thing happens, I will do the plan. My penance is doing the work on the list; the person does not want or need me to lambast myself for weeks as well.

      Sometimes, I use meditation apps to help practice mindfulness. Those techniques help you identify a thought, acknowledge it, and let it go. I find that helpful. Sometimes, I will distract myself with social media or work, or hobbies, or videogames. These usually help get me out of the panic, but often make me feel bad in different ways (especially social media).

      What also helps me, but which is very weird and may not actually help anyone else, is that I am genuinely angry at myself if I worry about something and it turns out it wasn’t an issue. My brain can justify worrying as “useful” if it turns out I was right (my brain is not correct, but it “feels” better), but if I drive myself to agony and then find out it was for nothing, I get angry with myself. Consequently, if I don’t have absolute assurance that the thing I’m worried about is 100% true, I have some success thinking, “How would you feel if all of this turned out to be a rumor?” Since the answer is “Wow, I’d feel like I wasted hours of my life I’ll never get back!!” I can sometimes use that to redirect myself.

      I hope you can find a way to get your mind off this until (or unless!) something happens!

      Reply ↓
    4. Ellis Bell*

      When I’m in this situation, I like to contemplate what kind of mistake culture I work in. Is it the kind where people are good at understanding that mistakes happen, and are constructive even when being critical? Or do I work in a blame culture? Even when it’s the latter, I find it personally helpful to distance my own opinions from the culture I’m working in. I feel like you can weather things better when you’re compassionate to yourself and have this as a baseline expectation.

      Reply ↓
  26. Insert Pun Here*

    I have an interview next week for a job that I’m not sure I want. I am currently employed, in a sector that may see impact from the administration’s budget cuts, though my specific division is unlikely to be directly impacted. (We may be indirectly impacted in any number of ways.) The job I’m interviewing for is similar work, in a sector that’s less likely to see direct impact, a more senior title but pay would be slightly less or (best case) about the same. I don’t have any reason to think that it’d be a better or worse workplace.

    I’m just not really sure how to weigh all these factors. I like my job! I don’t really want to be looking for other jobs! (I applied to this one on a whim and, well, here we are.) If you were me, what would you be thinking about in this situation?

    Reply ↓
    1. Emac*

      If the pay would be about the same, I would be looking at other benefits. Is health insurance better/cheaper, is there more vacation time, etc.? I’d also think about where you are in your career – do you have time to wait out the current administration and any impacts it might have on your sector?

      Reply ↓
    2. HR Exec Popping In*

      When I interview for roles I’m not too sure I want, I look at it as opportunity to learn about another organization and get more interviewing experience. I focus less on the job and just see how things go. Good luck!

      Reply ↓
  27. Impending layoffs?*

    This week I found out that two of my coworkers was laid off as part of a “reorg” that has never been announced. I found this out from one of their coworkers when I asked when one would be in next because I needed to talk to him about a project.

    I’m a senior level person and I know our company is projected a loss this year but we were assured staff reduction would not be at play unless the loss continued into 2026. However, I’m not sure this was strictly a financial decision. Five of us – including the two that were laid off – were promoted as a retention strategy during the great resignation. I am wondering if they are looking to get rid of us (all senior level but not VPs) to replace us with lower-paid managers… or not replace us at all. Our company is super toxic overall, and I’ve only been here as long as I have because there has been some instability in my personal life that made finding a new job unappealing.

    I am fortunate to be in a financial position where if I got laid off, I could take a little sabbatical. However, I’m still feeling a little apprehensive and anxious. I think it’s mostly because this job, as terrible as it’s been, has been a source of stability when I needed it. I have been applying around to other jobs, but haven’t had much luck yet. I’m not sure what exactly I’m asking for, but I guess if anyone has pearls of wisdom for getting through this, or just wants to commiserate, I’d love to hear it.

    Reply ↓
    1. Mariana Twonch*

      It might be helpful to reframe your thinking about the role your job plays in your life. You’re looking to this job to provide emotional stability, when that’s not really what it’s for. Your job is a source of income, and while it’s OK to like your job, and derive satisfaction from it, it should not be a source of emotional fulfillment. Jobs come and go in life, and we often have little or no control over that. Best of luck, I hope this works out for you.

      Reply ↓
      1. Impending layoffs?*

        Thank you for this. However reflecting on it it’s not that it provides emotional fulfillment, it’s that it’s something that’s predictable and hasn’t changed. When in my personal life there has been wildfire destruction of my home, losing a parent, relationship suddenly ending. This job has been pretty terrible since I started it, but it was something that didn’t change, when everything else was changing rapidly and felt out of control.

        Reply ↓
    2. HR Exec Popping In*

      It is very possible they decided they don’t need people at that level and that it would make more sense to have more junior level staff. I have been at companies were we have worked to reduce the number of senior leaders. This is sometimes due to cost and sometime because it just doesn’t make sense to have so many leaders (more leaders can slow work down actually). I’m sorry you are going through this but am glad you are in a good place financially. For now, maybe just focus on your work and showing your value. But know this is not something you can control. You only control if you decide to continue to work there.

      Reply ↓
      1. Impending layoffs?*

        Thank you for this perspective. Unfortunately they were both at my level! There were 5 of us and now there are 3. We are all in different departments though.

        Reply ↓
  28. Bluebonnet*

    Do you feel like you chose your field or fo you feel like you got thrown into it? If you were thrown into it, do you recommend staying if you are successful and find the job agreeable enough (although not exciting)?

    I majored in journalism and was a student worker at the college library. After graduating, I realized that I did not want to be a journalist but still needed an income. Therefore, I applied and got a staff position at that same library.

    From that job, I transitioned to two other libraries on the same campus taking pay raises each time. I used tuition remission to get a student affairs masters part time to pivot to student affairs as an academic advisor (or study abroad advisor). However, after graduating, I realized that the pay for the jobs in this field is lower than my current pay. I originally wanted to ve

    I am between a rock and a hard place since I would have to either take a pay cut and change fields or stay where I am with no further advancement (without getting a library science masters).

    My true passion is foreign languages and travel, but I am guessing it is best to stay where I am and enjoy my hobbies off the clock. I do wish my life was more exciting, however, but do not want to go into more debt.

    Reply ↓
    1. Sloanicota*

      Definitely did not plan and would not have planned for my current role (fundraising). It was just the one most needed/most in demand every time I job searched. The answer to your question will vary for everyone. What are the things you value the most? For me, having more career opportunities and better pay in my generally under-paid field is worth a lot, plus my role lends itself to working independently at home, something I value. I feel like I am reasonably good at my job and I like that it is important to the organizations I care about, so I’m reasonably satisfied, even though the actual day-to-day work is not my favorite (I used to do field work and was on a science track – now I basically fill out forms all day). On balance, I can live with it because I’m a work-to-live type. But others would feel differently.

      Reply ↓
      1. Sloanicota*

        That said, I definitely contemplate every so often going back and doing something more “real” for lack of a better term, fairly often. Sooo much of my job is just managing my inbox and sitting in meetings and sort of twiddling my way through the workday. Just a brain in a jar. How would I feel day to day if I had something I actually *needed* to do all day, like I was a nurse/teacher/lab worker or even something more physical like being back in the field? Would I hate it? Would I be exhausted all the time? How much would it stink to have to show up in person versus how good would it feel for the day to move quicker? Not sure I could make the switch now even if I wanted to, without going back to school, and I refuse to take on any debt so it might be a moot point. But I do think about it.

        Reply ↓
        1. Valerie Loves Me*

          Are you by any chance a grant writer? I’m intrigued by it as I like to do research and writing…. I have non-profit experience, but not sure if I should make the leap as an older professional.

          Reply ↓
          1. Sloanicota*

            Yes, but I had a weird route, I went from subject matter expert to a foundation role in that subject, and then became a grant writer based on having past work in foundations. I don’t really know how most people become full time grant writers when so many nonprofit careers have some experience. It’s also a good thing to freelance in, as lots of little nonprofits would *love* to have you volunteer for (when you really love the org) and then leverage those successes into paid roles, I guess?

            Reply ↓
    2. Decidedly Me*

      I stumbled into what I do. It’s not what I wanted my path to be originally, but I’m good at it and it pays well. Going to what I wanted to do in the first place would require going back to school and starting over career wise. I sometimes have wistful thoughts about it, but I don’t think I’m really up to that at this time (and probably won’t ever be).

      Reply ↓
      1. Angstrom*

        Similar. I never would have chosen this industry or position, but in larger terms, what I do — solve problems and help people — is what I enjoy, and what I would have wanted to do wherever I ended up.

        Reply ↓
    5. Valerie Loves Me*

      I was an English major with no clue. I applied for editorial jobs, marketing jobs, publicity jobs and anything that involved some kind of writing. Took the first full time job I could get. In PR. Never felt entirely confident. Changed industries. Not a pay cut, but not more money. Still PR. Still not entirely confident. Changed industries again. Better pay. Still not confident, but workable. Changed industries once more. Pay cut. Still meh.

      My advice is find a career that involves the tasks and activities you excel at, then the highest position that such a career would be. Then create your path to get there.

      Reply ↓
    6. cmdrspacebabe*

      I fell into mine through a co-op placement, but it worked out well for me, luckily!

      Probably not helpful as you haven’t actually asked about fields, but I wonder if you’ve ever looked into consular work (working in embassies abroad to support travelers, immigrants/expats, etc.). A former supervisor of mine moved into that from a communications job and now leads the most Instagram-glamorous, travel-filled life you could imagine.

      Reply ↓
    7. Tio*

      So I’m a customs broker. I majored in international business and had no idea what a customs broker even was.

      I graduated college into a rough job market. My friend got a job doing documentation in logistics, and I applied at her company with a referral from her. But another employee referred someone else and they got the job. This is probably how it should have gone, looking back – he had been there longer and was more established an trusted – but at the time, with no “adult” job so to speak, I was mad. SO I thought “I’ll show them” and applied to a bunch of different logistics companies and got hired into one who liked my bilingual skills. while there, I overheard some of the employees wondering why another manager didn’t just get her broker license, since it would make her “so much more valuable”. I looked up what the license was, saw that it required a licensing test, and since I had been good at tests in school, figured why not. Then I passed on my first try (not common) and surprise! I was a broker. Have been for over a decade now

      The joke in my industry is that no one ever grew up thinking they wanted to be a broker lol

      Reply ↓
    8. Kindly Egg*

      I’m a back-and-forth on this one – I grabbed whatever jobs I could find right out of college (while, ironically, getting my MSLS). Then got into academic libraries and worked in that field for several years.

      I just made a transition away from libraries (still in higher ed, but a different role and institution), because library work was burning me the heck out. I got to a point where I was applying to anything I was remotely qualified for (or that I could spin that way), and have now lucked into a job in scheduling and events that I never would have imagined myself in, but am really loving.

      I think if you have experience in higher ed (particularly in libraries, where you work with a huge cross section of the institution’s community), it’s maybe easier to make the transition to different roles within higher ed – of which there are so many. If where you are currently is at least Good Enough, then that’s great, but if you find yourself itching to move into something else, definitely consider looking around at what else is available at your institution (and others locally) and casting a wider net – you never know what you’ll find!

      (That is a lot of advice you didn’t ask for, so please forgive me for that – but I’m always so interested to talk/think about library and post-library careers!)

      Reply ↓
    9. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Total accident. My mom was in medical administration (coding and billing for small family practices) all my life and I thought it was the most boring thing ever. When I was 23, I got a temp job at a big hospital in their coding and billing areas. The guy I was helping with a one-off project quit at the end of my first week and I ended up loving it and staying for over eight years, becoming coding certified, and at this point I’ve been in the field (and progressed from individual contributor to management) for over 20 years, always in big academic hospital systems.

      Reply ↓
    10. Melody Powers*

      I fell into my current field and I’m definitely planning to stay. I used to work in animal care and I enjoyed it but wanted more stability and benefits that most places I used to work didn’t provide. Now I work for state government in the mental health field. I have a friend who was able to refer me and I’ve done well (promoted after 8 months). This was never my plan but I see myself staying here until I get my full pension while enjoying hobbies in my free time.

      Reply ↓
    11. Irish Teacher.*

      Chose it. Never wanted to do anything except teach. I remember being in 3rd class so nine years old and our teacher asking us what we’d wish for if we had three wishes and the only thing I could think of was that I’d get a teaching job when I grew up.

      Reply ↓
    12. DidMyTimeInTheShakespeareMines*

      My “real field” (theater) was always going to need a different job to support it, so I did the stereotypical food service/retail/nannying during the day, theater at night thing for a while. Eventually needed more stability and applied for pretty much every listing at my local university since I knew they had good benefits, and ended up in financial aid. That was several years ago. I like my current career and am happy to stay as long as I can, but if I could do it over, I’d be more strategic in choosing my non-theater career track, figure out something higher paying and more mobile that I didn’t hate and would also be good at, and start working toward it sooner. What I currently do is very, very US specific and these days, I wish I could at least fantasize about moving countries without having to start from scratch. And there’s enough of a vibe difference between myself and my colleagues that even though everyone likes me and I’m good at my work, I don’t think I’m likely to get promoted any further than I am here, because I’m “creative” and therefore not serious enough or something.

      Reply ↓
    13. Elizabeth West*

      I definitely did not plan to be where I am. I fell into it while looking to avoid anything I couldn’t do due to a learning disability. My strength is words, not numbers. I got a Project+ cert while I was still unemployed and it helped a little. It’s hard to get work in technical documentation unless you have a STEM degree. Fortunately I found a niche in A/E, but unfortunately, this field tends to lay off when work is slow. I plan to get a CSI CDT certification — hopefully that will make me more retainable.

      In fact, I actually didn’t intend to end up where I live, either. I was targeting the west coast but the response was minimal at best. Then a path opened up to the Northeast, so I took it. I figured there must be a reason for that even if I haven’t figured out what it is yet, lol.

      Reply ↓
    14. Wordybird*

      I definitely fell into the job and field I now have. I didn’t even realize that was an option or a career until a few years ago. I’m basically a specialized project manager (though that’s not my title). The work is fine and I guess I’m good at it but it’s very boring. Of course, most PM work is herding cats but my employer is especially good at treating some of the cats better than others, giving some of the cats different rules, and/or making exceptions for the bosses of some of the cats and I find that extra frustrating. Despite that, I could manage to stay here a few more years if it wasn’t for having my passion project, outside my scope of work but approved by all TPTB, defunded from this year’s budget without telling me + the company creating a new raise structure to make it nearly impossible for anyone to receive more than the most paltry of COL raises while spending lots of money on travel and non-necessary perks and conferences. That has become a dealbreaker for me.

      With that said, I am the primary breadwinner with a partner in an industry that is notorious for part-time hours and layoffs + am middle-aged so I’m not able to jump ship for just any job. I have to make the same amount that I make now as well as work remotely due to my physical capabilities (or lack thereof) so this job hunt will take awhile (then, of course, there’s the dumpster fire job market right now). I’ve discovered the term “morally ambitious” recently which is exactly what I am and what I’d like, ideally, but I’m also old enough to realize that I need to make money professionally more than I need to make a difference professionally.

      All of this rambling is to say that I’m an idealist with a mortgage, kids, and a passport itching for more stamps so while I may start to really dislike my employer & my job, I wouldn’t walk away unless something truly illegal and egregious happened. I don’t need to be fulfilled at my work as much as I need to be fulfilled in my life and my relationships and need my work in order to do that.

      Reply ↓
    15. BigLawEx*

      Is foreign service an option?
      (There was a hiring freeze most of the time my age cohort would have been eligible.)

      I realize as I write this I didn’t think about the current problems. It’s a thought, though perhaps at a different time.

      Reply ↓
  29. Dinosaur Sr.*

    Can someone help me find the recent-ish question about the employee who expects the boss to do everything because it’s easier for the boss to answer the question than the employee to find the answer? I hope my description makes sense – ha! (And now I realize I sound like the employee but I really tried to find it myself first)

    Reply ↓
    1. Hlao-roo*

      None of these are particularly recent, but from the employee side there was this past letter:

      “my boss turns it into an ordeal every time I ask him a question” from October 7, 2015 (with an update December 3, 2015)

      and from the boss side there were these past letters:

      “How do I train my staff to be comfortable figuring things out on their own?” from April 5, 2019 (#1 on a short answer post)

      “how to tell an employee he needs to figure some things out himself” from February 7, 2022

      I’ll link to those three letters in a follow-up comment. If they aren’t the one you’re thinking of, do you remember any more details from the letter? Was it written by the boss or by the employee? (Or by a by-standing coworker?)

      Reply ↓
    2. Bike Walk Bake Books*

      Is it the one where the person said they need an accommodation that would consist of their manager figuring everything out for them to organize their work? I’ll link to that in a reply.

      Reply ↓
  30. Mashed Potato*

    Anyone been to an interview where you realized you might have overshoot and not qualified? Or you got grilled and realized there’s a mismatched what they posted and what they’re looking for? I’m just having some flashbacks lately and want to talk. haha.

    Reply ↓
    1. TW*

      I’ve been to many an interview for a technical writing position where it was clear they wanted a software engineer who was willing to accept less money to write manuals. Leetcode questions, calculus questions, just a vomit spiral of STEM men trying to verbally push me around. Younger me suffered through the awkward, but older me excuses myself and leaves. I’m not here to be your cheap ghost coder.

      Reply ↓
      1. TechWriterToo*

        Are they? Or are they looking for a tech writer for technical products. I would be shocked to go to a tech writing interview and not discuss my experience writing code, testing APIs, doing data mapping, and all sorts of technical tasks. For many of us that’s a normal expectation for tech writing. It sounds like you might be more focused on end user documentation which us totally fine, but writing documentation for programmers is a large component of the tech writing world and something it would be strange not to encounter if seeking tech writer work. Maybe you need to be more explicit about the types of tech writing jobs you’re interested in pursuing.

        Reply ↓
        1. TW*

          I’m not interested in debating this with you. Commenters are expected to take others at their word. Please stop white knighting for companies you’ve never even heard of.

          Reply ↓
    2. Zona the Great*

      Oh yeah. My resume and cover letter are so well done (no lies told) that I often get invites for interviews for jobs I am not close to being qualified for. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had to say, “I know you’re speaking English but I have never heard those words strung together like that before in my life”.

      Reply ↓
    3. Grasshopper Relocation LLC*

      Yes. One very hyperactive Belgian gentleman wanted to hire me with a view towards me becoming CTO in six months.

      This would have been my second job. I was 24.

      Reply ↓
      1. JustaTech*

        At the height of the first Dot Com bubble I dodged (literally, sidled away in a hallway) an over-eager executive who wanted to hire me as a programmer.

        I was only just 16 and had exactly 3 weeks of class on Java.

        Part of me was saying “you’re supposed to put yourself forward! Take the initiative! Gumption!” and another part of me was saying “this guy has to be insane to think this is a good idea. I have no interest in setting myself up for failure on this scale.”
        Thankfully my dad rescued me before I had to say “no thank you” more than once (I was at my dad’s office after school).

        Reply ↓
    4. Tio*

      Yes.

      I applied to work at Walgreens in their logistics/compliance internal division and the interviewer absolutely grilled me on a software that I admitted in the beginning I did not have experience in. (It was a type of software used in the retail side of the industry but not in the 3rd party logistics side of the industry I was currently in.) I have never had a worse interview than that, and I knew before we even got off that I was never hearing from them again.

      Funnily enough, when I got my current job, I used that as my “weakness” – I know your industry uses this type of software and I have no experience with it, so that’s my weakness, but I’m a fast learner and believe I can get up to speed with it pretty quickly.
      Ironically, the had just launched the use of that software like a month before so no one knew how to use it well yet so my weakness wasn’t even weak!

      Reply ↓
    5. WeirdChemist*

      Yes. I interviewed for a position that was advertised as a mix of Field A and Field B, where I was very experienced in B and rather weak in A which was well reflected in my resume. In the interview it became obvious that they mostly cared about Field A and I definitely fumbled those questions in the technical portion of the interview. (It also became clear that their institutional knowledge on B was lacking…. I probably could have actually contributed in that way but whatever…). I definitely didn’t get that job and sometimes the awkwardness of that interview haunts me lol

      Did I mention that this was in hour 2 of an *8hour* interview? Yeah… probably should have cut it there but unfortunately I stuck it out the rest of the day for nothing!

      Reply ↓
    6. A Significant Tree*

      Yup – it was for an internal role in a different division. The position description said it was for a Lead role (in that company Lead = team lead, not supervisory or management). Had I known it was a management role I would not have applied – not qualified or interested in that.
      Every “tell me about a time” question was about my management experience. I had no actual management experience, which should have been obvious from my resume, so I tried to fill in with team lead experience but that clearly wasn’t what they were looking for. At least it only lasted about 45 minutes.

      Reply ↓
    7. LaminarFlow*

      LOL yes! One of my first jobs was temping for a company that had a pool of temps to assign to different jobs like maternity leave cover, sometimes grunt-work like removing contents from file folders & saving the file folders, reception coverage for receptionists who were out on vacation was pretty common.

      I lied my ever-lovin’ teeth off about every tech skill I knew, but really didn’t know, and this company placed me accordingly. YIKES. Thankfully, manuals for all Microsoft programs & a few others that I didn’t know could be found in supply cabinets around the various buildings. I didn’t own a laptop at home, so I went to the library a few times to use their computers with the manuals I lifted from the supply cabinets.

      I learned some very valuable lessons. First, I learned to not lie about this stuff. Second, I learned tech skills that have been invaluable for my career.

      I loved that job, and I eventually got placed within the company, and worked there for 5 years. No lies, lol.

      Reply ↓
    8. Ellis Bell*

      Oh I’ve been to interviews and you can see some of them are still figuring out exactly what they want while talking to you. Like TW, I’ve definitely caught people looking for a bargain, claiming to want one thing and then pressing you for more than the role would typically do.

      Reply ↓
  31. Olive*

    I recently went on medical leave for an eating disorder. No one at work suspected anything was wrong, so everyone was surprised when I announced my leave. I came back to work after two months and continued in outpatient therapy for another two months. All I told my boss and coworkers about my condition was that I was taking medical leave and then continuing treatment when I returned to work, and they were completely respectful and didn’t pry. Everyone’s been great! But I feel guilty because I think they are too worried about me. My eating disorder wreaked havoc on my life, but I’m lucky enough that I’ve been able to heal and strengthen myself physically and emotionally. I feel a little bad that they think I’m going through a terrifying disease when it is actually treatable and I’m doing a lot better. I don’t want to write it off completely, but I’ve been smiling and assuring people that I’m doing OK now.

    Has anyone else experienced this with medical leave? I am also, uh, aware that my mental health demons may be leaping in to tell me I don’t have ~real problems.~ But I’m curious if other people have had similar experiences!

    Reply ↓
    1. KitKat*

      I don’t have similar experiences to offer but I just want to reassure you a little bit. Eating disorders are really serious and really scary. They are real problems and you are deserving of concern and care. I’m so glad you were able to take the time off and have had a good experience on return!

      Reply ↓
    2. Plaidless*

      Setting aside the issue of your imposter syndrome, so to speak, carry on for the sake of normalizing medical leave. Serving as an example of maintaining privacy for your diagnosis/recovery will help those who come after you.

      Reply ↓
    3. Grasshopper Relocation LLC*

      I assure you, if I were your colleague and found out that that was what you had had, the LAST thing I would think would be “oh, I thought it was something serious.”

      Reply ↓
    4. HannahS*

      I have any intention of invalidating your feelings, but I would really disagree that you that you don’t have a terrifying disease or that people are “too” worried.

      I actually do have a colleague with a serious eating disorder who has taken time away from work to recover. She and I have never discussed it (and I don’t think she has any obligation to talk about it with me) but I know about her illness because she is involved in mental health advocacy outside of work where she discusses her experience more openly. My feelings towards her are entirely caring and sympathetic. When she returned and was obviously in better health, I felt relieved and happy for her. I hope that she is able to remain well and recover even more fully. It would not feel good to me if she in some way tried to communicate that I shouldn’t care about her. And to be clear–if I was crossing boundaries, I would of course want to know. But she and I don’t talk about her illness; I just behave in a generally sensitive manner (not pressuring her to eat or participate in group photos, ensuring that our social activities don’t always revolve around food or exercise.)

      I hope that if one of your colleagues who appeared well suddenly announced a medical leave and then returned, that your degree of compassion to them wouldn’t change just because their illness was treatable and they were recovering. Allowing other people to care about you is part of participating in connection with other people. We give care, and we also receive it.

      I am so happy to hear that you feel that you’re recovering and I hope you continue to feel better!

      Reply ↓
      1. Olive*

        Thank you— and thank you to all the commenters! I think I did need the reminder that this is a serious issue. And the LAST thing I want is for anyone to read my comment and think that their eating disorder is not a major and scary thing. It only seems “not that bad” now because I got help before it got worse.

        I don’t want to derail this thread into too much mental health territory, but I encourage anyone struggling with similar concerns to see themselves as deserving of help. And for all employers, generosity and flexibility and privacy are true gifts to all your employees— whether or not they have a diagnosable Thing. As you allude to, Hannah, the most important thing is to establish a culture of compassion and respect.

        Reply ↓
    5. Nesprin*

      You have ~real problems~ eating disorders kill people! Congrats on going to get treatment and on doing better now. It sounds like you’re dealing with a lot of shame and stress- this is 100% a thing to discuss with your therapists and care team.

      Reply ↓
    6. HR Exec Popping In*

      I previously had to take a medical leave (and might have to again) and didn’t want to share why. I told people that I have a medical condition and my doctors needed me to take time off for treatment. When I returned, I just told people that I am now doing fine and continuing treatment, but it is not something they need to worry about. Then I just let it go and don’t bring it up. I think sometime we over think things. People that are nice and respectful tend to take your cues. And those that aren’t and don’t aren’t worth your effort or concern.

      I’m so glad you got help and are doing better. As others have said, your eating disorder is serious so don’t minimize it (to yourself). And be proud of your progress!

      Reply ↓
    7. Can't Sit Still*

      Congratulations on getting treatment for your ED! It’s very hard work, and I’m very happy for you that you’re doing well.

      However, an eating disorder IS a terrifying disease that wreaks havoc on the mind and body, and is all too often terminal.

      If you wish, you can reassure your coworkers that you’re doing well now, are in remission, or even a bit about how “we caught it in time” if you like. This is something your therapist should be able to help you roleplay, too. (I am hoping you still have a therapist or some kind of external support. ED is sneaky and can come creeping back when you’re busy living your life, especially early in recovery.)

      Reply ↓
    8. The Gollux, Not a Mere Device*

      Remember that you are doing well now because you took that leave and went for treatment, and the treatment is working well for you.

      Something can be both serious, even terrifying, and treatable.

      Reply ↓
    9. mreasy*

      It is wonderful to hear that you got the treatment you needed and are healing!

      I went on medical leave for a mental health crisis and during leave was in inpatient care and shared it the same way – medical leave with continuing treatment. My colleagues all just wanted to know I was okay, the same way you would after someone has a bad flu or a serious surgery.

      You have a serious condition. You got the treatment you needed. If people are anxious that you have a serious condition, that’s okay – because you do. An eating disorder, like any other mental health issue, is a medical problem just as much as breaking a leg or having chronic migraines or any other more “traditional” type of disease or health problem.

      We certainly don’t live in a culture that treats mental health disorders the same way they do other medical issues. But in reality, they are as serious and often more serious – so please try to tell yourself that it’s okay that your colleagues are concerned.

      Reply ↓
    10. Irish Teacher.*

      Lots of things are treatable and I wouldn’t assume your colleagues are thinking you must have something untreatable because you are taking medical leave. For all they know, it could be something much milder than an eating disorder.

      If I heard somebody was out on medical leave for two months and then continuing treatment after returning, I’d assume some kind of operation that maybe required physio or something after it. Maybe something along the lines of a hip replacement – not that I’d assume that specifically with a younger person, but something of that level of severity.

      Reply ↓
      1. Irish Teacher.*

        Sorry, reading over that, it sounds kind of blunt and I didn’t mean it that way. I just meant that an eating disorder isn’t less important than other reasons you could be out and that it’s likely they are worrying less than you deserve if anything. I am quite sure I wouldn’t even consider that something somebody was out for two months’ medical leave for was likely to be something that wrecked havoc on their life.

        People are concerned because they care about you. If it was “just” a broken leg, I’m sure they would be concerned too.

        It’s easy to feel like mental health problems are “less” because they aren’t as visible, but they are still health problems and still deserving of sympathy.

        Reply ↓
    11. Ellis Bell*

      Am I reading your situation right if I sum it up as “It was a serious condition, but I’m thriving and yet people are tiptoeing around me as though I might collapse on the job?” I mean people die of eating disorders, and that’s why your treatment was extensive, so I’m sure you’re not dismissing the issue as being serious at the outset. If people are treating you like you need cotton wool wrapping, and you really feel it’s needless, I’d just be very enthusiastic and happy about social plans/energy/being back at work or whatever it is they seem concerned about and let them take cues from you. Do be aware though that “No longer at rock bottom” is sometimes mistaken for “recovered”. Not quite the same thing, but when I was recovering after a tough time with mental health and I was out of the “absolutely wretched” woods, I was tempted to think of myself as “I’m all better, why is everyone so concerned?” What I didn’t necessarily realise is that I was only comparatively better and my recovery followed a rollercoaster coaster pattern.

      Reply ↓
  32. Janeway, Her Coffee In Hand*

    I was recently thinking about a situation that happened at a previous job and wondering if I handled it correctly or if it was as unreasonable as it felt.

    I worked at my last job for nearly a decade. Early on, it was a fully in-office position. Most people left their computers at their desks overnight and over the weekend. I also have ADHD and would often forget my computer if I took it home.

    In one of those pre-pandemic days, I once got sick overnight and had left my laptop at work. I have a family member who works across the street from my office, so I asked my manager if she’d be ok with him coming by to grab my laptop for me so I could catch up on emails when I felt better. My manager enthusiastically agreed and later said she enjoyed getting to meet my family member.

    Fast forward to post-pandemic. We’re back in the office Monday and Tuesday, and I have a new manager. I leave my computer in the office between in-office days, because I’m still ADHD as hell. One Monday night, I get sick, so I let my manager know I’ll have my family member swing by to pick up my laptop. Unlike my last manager, this one seems very hesitant with the arrangement. She leaves it at the front desk and never interacts with him.

    Next time I meet with her, she tells me that I absolutely must bring my laptop home every night, and that she found it uncomfortable to have someone pick it up for me. I push back on my concern about forgetting it, she dismisses it, then counters that it’s a security issue. We work behind multiple locked doors and the office is locked overnight. Despite the argument being ridiculous, I inform her that if it’s an issue, I’ll lock it in my locker overnight. She remains unhappy with this and continues to harp on the issue for a month until finally giving up.

    I never saw any problem with leaving my computer overnight at work. I’m not on call, I don’t need to work overnight, and 99.9% of the time, I came in the next day. I found her attitude about having someone pick my laptop up and the ‘security concerns’ ridiculous. Was I in the wrong here, or do other people see her behaviour as unnecessary too?

    Reply ↓
    1. Charlotte Lucas*

      I think she felt inconvenienced and didn’t like that. I’m pretty sure nobody is in my office today, and I know that some people who never WFH have left their computers in the office.

      She’s being ridiculous, and another option is to stop checking your email when you’re out sick.

      Reply ↓
    3. Time Zone Confusion*

      Hmm. Well for one I don’t think I’d emphasize to my boss that I’m simply not capable of remembering to do something with consistency, even if it’s true. I suppose the boss means she would feel responsible if she left the laptop at the desk and it later got lost/stolen/the wrong person came and picked it up?

      Reply ↓
      1. Janeway, Her Coffee In Hand*

        I’ve always been pretty open about my mental health and the majority of my managers have appreciated my honesty. It’s not an excuse for me, just a statement of fact to them: I forget things, so never feel bad reminding me about something. I don’t work in fields where having an impeccable memory is a job requirement and I would rather they know why than assume I’m just lazy.

        Reply ↓
        1. RagingADHD*

          Fair, but informal understandings do not carry any job protection, and even formal accommodations do exempt you from aspects of the job that are considered core to performance. And security policies are a pretty easy case to make as a core requirement.

          Repeatedly telling a new manager that you are incapable of following direct instructions is not going to do you any favors in the long term. An awful lot of commenters here have ADHD, so we know how it works – and sometimes you just have to come up with strategies to make sure you get stuff accomplished, even if it is a weak point.

          Yes, consistency is hard and anyone (even NT people) are going to miss a trick from time to time. But just saying “I can’t do that because I have ADHD” is always going to come across as a cop out. One thing that we ADHDers are really good at is finding the bright line between stuff that is really going to have practical impacts, and stuff that is not. “Manager is unhappy and nags” is not much of a practical impact, and is probably going to be filtered out.

          It is entirely possible that “do not leave work equipment in the office overnight” is or could become a strict company policy that nobody gets exceptions for. If you were going to be fired for leaving it there, you’d figure something out. That is a practical impact that is going to be worth the effort of constructing a system of backups that ensure the desired result.

          You didn’t figure something out, because you were confident that the manager would back down rather than fire you. And that proved to be true. But it wasn’t because you literally can’t. It’s because it wasn’t worth the cost-benefit analysis to you.

          That doesn’t mean the manager was entirely wrong to have concerns. It means you succeeded in gaming her.

          Reply ↓
          1. Janeway, Her Coffee In Hand*

            “It is entirely possible that “do not leave work equipment in the office overnight” is or could become a strict company policy that nobody gets exceptions for.”

            It never was. It never became. The security bit was entirely her construction on the spot.

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        2. Ellis Bell*

          My field is Special Educational Needs and my boss and I were talking today about how amazingly open the upcoming generation is about their needs and how it’s going to change the world for the better. If you said this to me, I’d get it and I would appreciate that you HAVE put a routine on place precisely to help you not forget, but some members of the non spicy world just won’t. I’m with you on this 100 pc, it was a totally reasonable accomodation to ask for, and wouldn’t have affected the work negatively in any way, shape or form. I’m guessing she never said anything like “What other strategies do you have for remembering, and can we consider more options before we decide this is the only accommodation?” It sounds like she just scoffed at the very idea that anyone would struggle to remember a laptop each day; a reaction which strikes fear into the heart of those of us with ADHD; that someone has literally no idea about other types of brains and will conclude we are deliberately moronic. On the upside, when she experiences you pulling an impossible deadline on hyperfocus she will think you have magical powers. Food for thought: with the first manager you asked permission, and with this manager you informed them of what was going to happen. That’s rarely a good move diplomatically speaking, though I can see what happened.

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          1. Janeway, Her Coffee In Hand*

            It’s not relevant to this situation, but I can add that this manager was eventually let go after the company had to settle an EEOC complaint because of her treatment of an employee’s disability. If she’d approached the situation with honesty and openness to finding a solution, I think my reaction would have been different. Unfortunately, I don’t think that was ever in the cards with this person.

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        3. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

          I don’t love how your manager behaved here but I do think it’s one of those things where it’s a “your views may vary” and unfortunately her views work worse for you than the previous manager’s did. I don’t think it was a very inclusive or equity-minded way for her to behave, as others in this thread pointed out, but I do think it’s pretty much within the common variance you might expect in a workplace rather than her being completely bananapants. I agree it sucks though.

          One thing I do as an ADHD-er is run through a six-item checklist every day before I leave for work. Phone? Wallet? Keys? Bus pass? Did I take my meds? Do I have my laptop?

          Yeah, it used to be a five-item checklist. Ask me why I now include the laptop question.

          Reply ↓
    4. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      You probably signed a form when you were hired about custody of equipment, and you hopefully had IT security training too. Your family member did not.

      The security concern is about this random person, who your supervisor has never met before, carting company equipment around for who knows how long, in what manner, and to what intermediate locations, before they get it back to you. If they lose it or it’s stolen from them, who’s responsible? What if there is confidential information on there?

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    5. Magpie*

      It sounds like her main concern is having your family member pick up your laptop on days that you’re too sick to go into the office, and she wants you to take your laptop home every night in order to avoid that ever happening. I think that’s a reasonable concern. I would have a lot of concerns about a random non-employee taking possession of sensitive company property, even if it’s at the request of the employee. I don’t know this person so I don’t know with absolute certainty that the laptop will make it safely to you, and depending on what sort of sensitive information you have on the laptop that could be a huge problem for the company. If you’re choosing to leave your laptop at work every night, I think you also need to resign yourself to not having access to that laptop if you’re suddenly unable to go into the office one day because your boss has made it clear that she’s not ok with anyone other than you taking the laptop out of the building.

      Reply ↓
    6. WellRed*

      If you’re taking a sick day, take a sick day, instead of having people have to get your laptop to you. I think your boss reasoning about security aetc was ridiculous, but I also agree with time zone that telling your boss you can’t remember to bring your computer was the best move.

      Reply ↓
      1. Janeway, Her Coffee In Hand*

        Prior to COVID, we had no WFH days except for snow. If there was snow in the forecast, I’d take it home. After COVID, I took it home Tuesday night and brought it back Monday.

        Reply ↓
    8. RagingADHD*

      I don’t get the security concern about leaving the laptop in the office, but my job would not allow anyone not on staff to take a laptop off premises, even if it were my spouse. The security concern is that nobody else is supposed to have their hands on a company computer.

      We have a whole list of rules about not leaving company equipment unattended outside of the office or our home / designated remote work location – not in a car, not in a coffee shop, not even for a minute. These are immediate-firing-offense level rules.

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    9. Hyaline*

      I have never in my life heard of needing to take computers home because of security issues–that seems much LESS secure than leaving it on your desk in a locked office, let along in a locker. And I’ve worked jobs with very sensitive records on the computers! They were safer locked up than being carried around, on public transit, etc.

      However–I can see if she drew the line at “no, I can’t have someone else pick the computer up” and I would understand and appreciate the concern there. You are an employee and they have vetted (presumably) that you can be trusted with expensive equipment and possibly sensitive data, and you may have even received specific training on it, but not your family member. Still, the solution is “sorry, you just can’t work until you get back on the rare days you’re out sick” not “take your computer home every night.”

      (Was the expectation that everyone be on their computers at home, on off-work hours? Therefore everyone was supposed to tote their computers home? That would be a sucky and weird expectation.)

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    11. JustaTech*

      I’m seeing two separate things here, and I agree with you on one but not the other.

      Many companies are not going to be OK with non-employees picking up your laptop (even if they have no idea who touches your laptop at home), and I think that’s a reasonable stance for actual data security. There’s a lot more damage a hacker can do with your physical machine than just trying to get in from the outside.

      The whole “you have to take your laptop home for security reasons” is obviously silly. If your boss did continue to push on the “take your laptop home” thing you could always try something like leaving the laptop in your car (assuming that it would be safe there) or with your work bag (ie, don’t take it to your home office space but leave it ready to go) to make it easier to remember. (Fellow ADHD’r, these are my strategies.)

      Reply ↓
    12. higher ed-itor*

      I used to run international study programs, and even though I don’t usually get travel insurance for myself, we required all the students to get it. 99% of the time they didn’t need it, but we handled hundreds of students every semester and that meant we did in fact need it 100% of the time at the departmental level. Many of those students chafed at the requirements (the cost was covered by the program, they just had to fill out some forms), and they might have been correct that it was unnecessary on an individual level, but it was extremely important and necessary for us to be covered in aggregate.

      Similarly, you might feel that your family member is obviously trustworthy and known, and I’m sure that’s true in your individual case. But it’s also entirely reasonable and in fact quite responsible for your boss/company to decide that as a matter of policy, unaffiliated third parties can’t be in the hand-off chain for company equipment, because even if your family member is probably fine, there’s that 1% chance that something goes wrong.

      It’s not just about trustworthiness; for example, what is the company’s liability if the family member gets mugged while transporting the equipment? There are all kinds of wildly unlikely things that we regularly gamble on in our personal lives but which are deeply unwise to gamble on when you’re rolling the dice for an entire office. Risk tolerance is just different when you scale up.

      I also notice that you describe the first incident as asking your manager if she’d be okay with it, and the second incident as letting your manager know that it would be happening. I know that’s not the meat of your comment and might just be a turn of phrase, but it could also explain the different initial reaction and might have raised (valid?) concerns that you don’t understand what a big deal this is, as well as concerns that this might be SOP for you or that this might be happening more regularly in the future, which could explain her otherwise odd insistence that you take the laptop home every night.

      On that point, I do agree that that seems like some bizarre reasoning. The only way it potentially makes sense to me is if she was seeing it as a binary of either “Janeway takes the laptop home every night and sometimes WFH unexpectedly” or “Janeway leaves the laptop at work every night and has a non-company person pick it up sometimes.” Obviously that was not the actual choice being offered, but speaking from personal experience, I think there’s a decent chance she simply didn’t understand how ADHD fundamentally impacts recall and habit-forming. She wasn’t hearing you when you said it wasn’t an option, because it’s really difficult for some people to wrap their minds around, even when they should really know better. That said, the appropriate accommodation WAS the secure locker, not a license to ignore security protocols, no matter how ridiculous you personally find them. (I have separate thoughts about the efficacy of Dx disclosure but this is already way too long a comment!)

      Finally, others have mentioned avoiding WFH when you’re sick, and I theoretically agree but I’m also in a position where sometimes it really is the best option; I get it. But if your work is that essential, either a colleague (you can tell I’m in higher ed/nonprofits, hah) or a courier service should be the one to make the equipment transfer. Friends and family should be the absolute last break-glass-in-case-of-emergency resort, and I can see why it might’ve been alarming that you don’t seem to acknowledge that, even though it doesn’t sound like your manager handled it very well.

      Reply ↓
  33. Hobbit in a hole*

    I’m generally a lurker, not a poster, but something happened yesterday at work and I’d love your take on it.

    Background: I work at a community college doing one-on-one and group tutoring for biology, chemistry, and math. There is a student who I and a few other tutors see on a regular basis. He is your stereotypical cis guy, absolutely average in every way. Picture late teens to early twenties lacrosse bro. He usually wears tee shirts and jeans or the occasional polo and khakis.

    Yesterday he showed up for his appointment wearing a black leather studded collar with a small lock holding it closed and the word SLAVE in little rhinestones. He had on a super tight black sleeveless tee with DADDY’S BOY written on the front and a pair of black shorts that were either vinyl or neoprene.

    To say I was gobsmacked is an understatement. I do not kink shame, but I did take him aside and explain to him that (1) it is generally not cool to make an unprepared audience part of your kink (none of our tutors or students need to know you’re into sub/dom play) and (2) there were some people who were uncomfortable with the word “slave”. He apologized and said his partner told him to wear it all day at school and that it would not happen again. He also said he couldn’t take the collar off because he does not have the key. We did our appointment in a small room –door open– and he left campus afterwards

    My coworkers are about equally divided over whether I should have just ignored it, if I handled it appropriately, or if I should have reported him to our student discipline officer.

    Reply ↓
    1. Charlotte Lucas*

      I think you handled it well. College kids are still learning to be adults, and it sounds like this was the first time he did anything like that. (If you could have helped him cover the collare, that would have been ideal.)

      A second time is when you talk to the student discipline officer.

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    2. Time Zone Confusion*

      Wow, fascinating! I’m not sure what I would have done in that moment. I probably would have tried to ignore it, I guess. I mean, it’s not really hurting me personally. I certainly wouldn’t report it. I support if you were made uncomfortable it’s not the worst thing to speak up about it.

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    3. Busy Middle Manager*

      One logical fallacy I keep seeing online is people thinking that in order to be considered liberal/accepting, they need to accept everything at all times.

      No you do not. You’re allowed to have boundaries and push back. You did the right thing. Talking it out was good. However, if it was a private tutoring session and it didn’t disrupt a class or event, no reason to get a “discipline officer” involved.

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    4. Pay no attention...*

      I would have ignored it. When I first started to read the description I genuinely thought he’d lost a bet or was pledging a frat.

      Reply ↓
      1. Hobbit in a hole*

        Indeed. My first thought was that someone put him up to it as a joke or dare. Our campus is 100% commuter, lots of students in plumbing, HVAC, etc., as well as a huge healthcare division (nursing, MRI, X-ray tech, etc.) so no Greek orgs.

        If he had said it was a joke or hazing, my reaction would have been much less nuanced.

        Reply ↓
    5. WorkerDrone*

      That would have made me uncomfortable, because the “audience” is a central part to the kink. He was dressed that was specifically to be exposed to the reactions of others. I think you handled it well by speaking with him.

      I would not have reported him, though. I have seen some extremely questionable outfits on my college campus, and frankly, it was just as likely he was dressed that way because of his personal style as it was due to a kink. The only reason you knew it was kink vs. style is because you’d seen his personal style many times before. Someone who hadn’t wouldn’t have realized why he was dressed that way. I think a report goes too far.

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    6. MsM*

      I might do a bit of follow-up to make sure he feels comfortable pushing back with his partner on requests that cross a line and have some resources available in case he does indicate he’s not in a safe situation, but I think your approach was good.

      Reply ↓
    7. WellRed*

      Ah gotta love it when the young ‘ins discover sex and think everyone else wants to know? I do think reporting it to the discipline officer would have been overkill.

      Reply ↓
    9. Laggy Lu*

      I think you handled this well.
      For me, I probably would have assumed he lost a bet or something, and ignored it.

      Reply ↓
    10. ImHereForTheUpdates*

      I also think you handled that well. I am always surprised when younger people throw you a curve ball like that and not think about the consequences. While it’s everybody’s decision to live their life like they want, did it not occur to him to at least check in BEFORE showing up like that? But again – props to you for handling it so well.

      Reply ↓
    11. JustaTech*

      I think you handled this very well! Both of your points are really good, and 1 is very nuanced.

      Among most of the assorted kink community there is an understanding that you don’t include non-consenting people in your kink (don’t surprise TSA with your elaborate chastity belt, for example), but this is something that everyone needs to learn (hence it being a subject of discussion).

      Reply ↓
    12. Former Researcher*

      I work in undergrad education with a distant background (unrelated to my current role) in sociological kink research, and I think you handled it exactly right. Ignoring it would have been understandable but ultimately rather unkind. Reporting it would have been way too heavy-handed when the desired outcome was already achieved.

      This honestly reads very much like a “young people discover kink but not best practices” situation, where he/his partner almost certainly did not think the consequences through. I wouldn’t be concerned unless you see anything else going on, and I certainly don’t see this as needing any kind of discipline or formal warning. It sounds like he realized that this was a significant misstep, which is a credit to your intervention and will hopefully save him from ever pulling something like this in a higher-stakes scenario.

      Reply ↓
  34. Formerly Ella Vader*

    I saw a job posting for a new program that I’d love to work in. But the posting is for a head of program, which would be a significant stretch for me. I don’t see postings for other roles – they might have transferred internally to start the program. Is there a way to say in the cover letter “or other vacancies/opportunities in this department”? Or do I have to just hope a real manager reads my package and thinks “no, but lets talk to this one about more junior roles”?

    Reply ↓
    2. HR Exec Popping In*

      Chances are they don’t currently have another opportunity, but it honestly couldn’t hurt. As a hiring manager when I’ve gotten interesting resumes that just were not qualified for the current opening but a possibility for a more junior role, I’ve kept them in the event an opening comes up.

      Reply ↓
    3. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

      On the hiring side this isn’t something I’d be paying any attention to unless you advanced to at least a 1-1 interview. Application materials on their own…I read so many of them, and so quickly, that I would be extremely unlikely to remember that even if I saw it. If a more junior position exists, they’ll almost certainly post it, so you might as well pursue this role on the merits and if you don’t advance to an interview, just keep an eye on their postings for something more junior. Mentioning it in your cover letter kinda undercuts your argument for the role you’re applying to.

      I have had experiences where someone is SO awesome in an interview but not what we need the senior role, and I’ve gone back to them like a year or two later with a different position that better matches their skill level (I’ve done this twice). But that came from how memorable they were in the interview, and how perfectly their skill set aligned with my vision for roles that I knew we’d eventually need.

      Reply ↓
    4. RagingADHD*

      If the program is entirely new to them, it’s always possible that they are going to expect the new head to build up their own team and therefore may have openings in the near-ish future. I’d send it and explain in the cover letter why you’re interested, what level you see your skills possibly fitting, etc.

      The worst that will happen is that you hear nothing back – which is what happens most of the time anyway.

      Reply ↓
  35. Creed Bratton*

    I came here to discuss the EEOC form that some companies include in their online job applications (where they ask for race, disability status, veteran status, etc.). I find it annoying when those fields are set as “required” as that makes it seem not truly optional, even if there is an option in the drop-down menu to opt-out. However, I’m sure this is because companies find that, if they don’t make the fields required, people will simply ignore them, whereas making them required means it’ll take the same amount of effort to opt out as it does to answer. In other words, I’m sure this is a strategy to get more answers.

    The thing that I truly have a grievance with is when the question “Are you Hispanic or Latino?” is included as a separate question and when it’s a required field. I’ve also noticed that most of the time this question is included, the only options are “Yes” or “No” with no option to opt-out. I’m not an attorney but this seems legally questionable at best. So I have two questions about this:

    1. Why would they not simply include it as a possible answer with the question that asks what race/ethnicity you are? I know that it could be combined with other races but I don’t imagine it’s impossible to include that option.

    2. Why would a company essentially require me to answer this question to be able to apply for a job with them? In other words, why not allow people to opt-out like they do other questions? Is this an oversight or is there some other motive behind this?

    Looking forward to reading the responses.

    Reply ↓
    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      The separate hispanic/latino question is actually required by federal regulation since the 80s. They aren’t doing this on a whim.

      The opt-in machinations may just be how the software is configured. Or it may be done that way because the company got dinged by an auditor for not having enough information to prove that they aren’t discriminating in hiring.

      Reply ↓
      1. Creed Bratton*

        Okay, so why would they make an applicant answer the question instead of giving them the option to opt-out? As far as I know, these questions have to be optional. If they want to make the fields required, that’s fine, but one of the answers should be “opt-out” or an equivalent of that.

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    2. Charlotte Lucas*

      “Latino/Hispanic” is an ethnicity. The other questions are all about race.

      I am white, but I wish they would allow multiple options for race, as it’s not fair to make multiracial people choose one and ignore the rest of their heritage.

      Reply ↓
      1. Balanceofthemis*

        Some forms do have two or more races as an option, but that’s an internal decision and not required. But I agree, it should be the norm.

        Reply ↓
      2. Creed Bratton*

        I feel like I’ve seen these forms allow “mixed race,” or something similar, as an option. Then again, I’ve been opting out of this, if not ignoring it, on applications ever since I figured out it wouldn’t benefit me in any way to answer (about 10+ years ago).

        Reply ↓
    3. RaceAndEthnicity*

      The federal standards for race and ethnicity are in the process of changing; hopefully companies that misfolded their forms will take the opportunity to fix things as they do the updates.

      Reply ↓
      1. Creed Bratton*

        Yeah, I have a feeling we might see these phased out over the next few years. For the record, I don’t have an issue with these forms being included, even if I’m not in favor of having to complete them after filling out an application (often the same one over and over again in Workday, UltiPro, etc.). It’s that I can’t opt out of this particular question. It would be one thing if it was just one or two companies that I was referring to, but it seems like it’s almost the norm.

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    4. Hillary*

      Legally they’re required to ask the questions and collect specific data. They’re mirroring form EEO-1. Structuring the applications this way allows them to prove they’re following the law.

      From a why not an opt out button, it’s probably around database structure. Including “I prefer not to answer” in the dropdown means you can prove that the applicant interacted with the specific question.

      The Hispanic or Latino question should also include a prefer not to answer, if it isn’t there that’s a programming error.

      Reply ↓
      1. Creed Bratton*

        The Hispanic or Latino question should also include a prefer not to answer, if it isn’t there that’s a programming error.

        In most instances, there’s no “prefer not to answer” or any option other than yes or no. It seems odd that multiple companies are making this error while also making it a required field. I think it’s better to make all of the questions optional (like allowing applicants to ignore them) to avoid something like this, but I get why they don’t do that.

        Reply ↓
  36. Daisy Adair*

    I started a new job last year. Generally I get along with everyone and recently received a performance appraisal, which was very good. But, I am finding it hard to connect with my supervisor. Our conversations on the surface are fine, but can be awkward or stilted. About 50% of the time they won’t acknowledge information or updates that I send. And in fact, there have been several times when they’ll respond to someone else’s response to my email.

    The nature of my job is very much proactive decision making. One could argue that they are advocating for me to take on more ownership/responsibility in that area. But, they also have not been providing direction in what they want me to take ownership of. Over the past year, I’ve tried to establish my own processes that would help me identify how they prefer to receive or communicate direction or information. I’ve gently inquired about their own best practices and there are moments where they will give me conflicting advice. it’s almost as though their lack of response or direction is meant to be a response or a direction, to do what I think is best or what I’ve proposed. But there’s part of me that thinks it’s their way of avoiding taking responsibility if something should not work out.

    All of this wondering on my part is mostly pre-emptive. Nothing terrible has happened. The job is fine. It’s not my favorite, but it’s not a bad gig. But I also recognize that this is not how I work best. I prefer to have a more collaborative approach to the work I do to avoid confusion, miscommunication or problems — which is not uncommon in my line of work. I suppose the question I have is whether I need to adjust my own expectations or if this management style is a mismatch and I should actively look for something that’s more in line with what I’d like to accomplish.

    Reply ↓
    1. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      If you can, I’d ask if you could sit down with your supervisor one on one (you will know best whether this is a “pop-in” style convo or a meeting request; I would normally try to make it casual rather than A Thing). When you do, say to them you want to have a fairly high level conversation about communicating, because it seems like you have different styles and want to get a bit more on the same page.

      On the one hand, there’s a certain level of adapting you need to do to meet your supervisor’s preference, even if it isn’t your ideal. I’m thinking about message responses, for example. Discussions here on AAM and in my own working life show that some people really value the “ok, got it thanks” response while others H-A-T-E it because they see it as a waste of time. Direct and blunt people can often come off as rude to people who prefer a bit of chit chat before getting to the point. So as someone adapting to a newish supervisor, it’s pretty normal to ask for a calibration conversation. You may never get that “got it” response but you’ll learn that they would only message back if they see a problem, for example.

      I would go in with maybe 2-3 examples of things where you feel like there may be a misunderstanding or mismatch on expectations and try to say “I wasn’t sure what you wanted me to do here” if you need some concrete guidance.

      I think this is fine and would welcome it from a direct report but if you think a full convo after a year would be overkill, then I suggest you start baking in other ways to get what you need to bring you closer to your comfort zone. It sounds like you are an idea-sharing and collaborative person. When I’ve wanted to discuss ideas with others and didn’t find my supervisor helpful in the past, I’ve forged ties with a trusted peer or a different supervisor on the same team where I can bounce things off them and move forward on my own. Often, just the act of asking the question would help me get to an answer faster than stewing in silence. It worked better for my brain and my supervisor didn’t even need to know. They just noticed that I performed better when I created a better comfort zone.

      Reply ↓
      1. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

        I should say, Daisy, that sometimes moving on to a culture or boss that is a better fit can be a huge help and you should not discount wanting to move on for that reason. It’s a perfectly fine reason to job search. Just like the letter earlier this week, some people would find your situation just fine and others would be tearing their hair out. Do what you feel is right for you.

        My hope is that my above just gives you some extra ideas for ways to mitigate things if you wanted to try to stay.

        Reply ↓
  37. AnotherSarah*

    I’ve seen questions that touch on this but nothing that’s exactly the same situation, and I’m curious for thoughts and experiences. I know there are major downsides to “unlimited PTO” and I’m just trying to figure out what this would look like in practice. This may be moot anyhow since I just applied for this job yesterday–

    A small company is hiring someone for a ft (40 hours) fully-remote position. On the info page, it states that everyone works core hours (I assume partly because everyone is remote and spread across the country) and outside of that, it’s up to individuals how to get to the 40 hours. There’s also unlimited PTO.

    I don’t really know what this might mean in practice. In terms of the core hours, I’m guessing that it means I’d have a more or less consistent week-to-week schedule, but 1) it could be something where I end at 3 every day but then log in after my kids are asleep, but could be different on different days depending on their activities and 2) if I have a non-recurring thing come up, I can flex the time and make it up later (that day or week) rather than taking a small number of hours of PTO. I’m also hoping that since it’s salaried, they wouldn’t nickel and dime on hours, and that a 38-hour hour week wouldn’t be occasion for scrutiny unless my work wasn’t getting done at the required level, but who knows.

    I guess I can’t quite figure out where the unlimited PTO comes in. For context, I have a job now with no set PTO–I’m a professor and outside of time I need to be in class or meetings, my time is my own. I work a bunch but there are random days, even during the semester, that I take off to get this and that done (fun or life maintenance). But for a “regular” job, I don’t know what it means. Does it seem likely that PTO is used for vacations and staycations, where I’d be taking at least one but maybe ten or fifteen full days off? Or do people also use that “unlimited PTO” to, say, always work a half day on Friday? (Or is that part of the flexible schedule?)

    I know it’s very dependent on workplace, but if your company has a similar setup, I’d be curious to know. Remote plus flexible plus unlimited PTO sounds actually quite similar to being a professor (minus the potentially long summer break, but I don’t really take more than 2-3 weeks in summer anyhow) but I can’t be sure!

    Reply ↓
    1. EMP*

      In my experience with “unlimited” PTO, it was used for vacations/staycations/sometimes Dr’s appointments or random days off. It was always subject to manager’s approval, and for example, taking a half day every Friday with “PTO” would not have been acceptable. We had someone let go in part for abusing the unlimited PTO policy and after that management clarified it was “flexible” PTO not unlimited (eyeroll). We also had a guideline of not requesting more than 2 weeks off at one time, although people did take longer vacations with a lot of notice.

      I think your understanding of the core hours is right, although office culture could come into play as well in terms of which hours you’re expected to be responsive, and they may have set “core hours” you need to be working during as well.

      Reply ↓
      1. AnotherSarah*

        Thanks! Yes, I think the core hours are set across the board (something like 11-4 Eastern, 8-1 Pacific), but this all makes sense.

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    2. Alex*

      I think this can be really workplace dependent. In some workplaces, it may mean “You can theoretically take as much PTO as you want, as long as work needs allow” but then have a situation where work needs never allow. That is the downside–you rely a lot more on the culture of the workplace in terms of how much vacation time you can take, as opposed to a hard number of days you are allowed. So it could be great, or it could be very limiting.

      In a healthy workplace culture, one would hope that it would work something like what you describe–you are available for meetings, check ins, questions, etc., during set hours, and then it is up to you to get your work done on your own schedule outside of that time, and as long as you are getting your work done, no one really cares. PTO would be used for actual days away–going on a trip, sick in bed, whatever.

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    3. TimeOffNorms*

      Legally, the main difference us that you don’t get paid for unused vacation time when you leave.

      Practically, it depends a lot on the company. It can mean you get jo vacation because you need sick time. It can mean you get no vacation because you have no leverage over your boss since you don’t have days about to expire or max out. It can mean you never get to take time off because you’re too busy and it doesn’t get approved. Or it can mean you have some flexibility around when you take time.

      Please note that the flexible schedule is a completely different policy from the unlimited time off, although they can intersect. In most places you are expected to work at least X hours or take some form of time off (X is often 40 hours but can be 37.5 or 35 or something else). If you gave flexible schedules it doesn’t matter when you work those hours. Flexible with core usually means you need to take time off if not working during core hours even if you meet the X threshold. But all of thus varies a lot.

      Reply ↓
    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I work in a job that is full-time remote with unlimited PTO. We don’t have core hours but I am generally expected to be available from 8:30am to 5:30pm or so. I can set my own schedule so I block off time for appointments (up to 2 hours) and no one cares. I only “make up” time when I feel like I need to, like if a project is due and I don’t get it done before I need to take my dog to the vet, so I work on it when I get home. My partner just RTO’d and I drive him to the train, so I block off that time every day (and I’m open about why). I’m available for internal calls during that time and I make that clear on my calendar.

      No one here uses PTO to alter their general schedule. We would find that pretty odd. If someone needs a more flexible schedule, like every Friday afternoon off for example, they would discuss it with their manager and make it a regular part of their schedule. I use PTO for vacations, sick time, and one-off days– basically any day where I don’t want to be expected to check in. Generally these are planned unless it’s a sick day (which I have not yet taken completely since starting here, I need to do that), but sometimes it’s Monday and I could really use Friday off and I have no meetings scheduled so I take it (and give my boss a heads-up). And here, any PTO longer than 2 consecutive weeks requires special approval (I don’t know anyone who hasn’t gotten it).

      You can always ask about how unlimited PTO works during the interview. Every company has its quirks and unique policies.

      Reply ↓
      1. AnotherSarah*

        Thank you, this is so helpful! (And sounds very good, and like what I was envisioning.) But I’ll of course ask.

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    5. Laggy Lu*

      In my experience at 2 different orgs, “core hours” are set times that everyone, regardless of where you are, work, and a certain amount of your weekly hours have to include those core hours. So at my last job, our core hours were 10:30 am to 5:30 pm eastern, and you had to work at least 70% of your hours in those times (I can’t remember if it was weekly or per pay period).
      Unlimited PTO is for vacation, sick time, or any time you can’t “make up” that time within the pay period. Since you have a flexible schedule, you should be able to cover things like doctor appointments, or errands that have to happen during work days. So you will only need to PTO for longer times away from work. Note, that unlimited PTO doesn’t accrue and so also doesn’t pay out once you leave the company.

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    6. Qwerty*

      It might help to reframe it as “untracked PTO”. How much is standard varies from company to company and you’ll learn more about it in the interview. I usually ask how much people usually take – sometimes they’ll say “we recommend X days per quarter”, sometimes the recruiter expresses surprise at how few days people take (startup land). If I don’t feel like I have a good feel, I might follow up with “I usually get Y days per year, would that be out of step at Llama Corp?”. There is often still a PTO approval process but it is less formalized.

      PTO usually refers to vacations, sick time, doctors appts. Using it to regularly have a shorter schedule like half-day Fridays would be an abuse of the system (that comes to over a month off on its own). Think of it as times when your team has to commit to a lower capacity or covers for your workload.

      Some of the nice things with untracked PTO is there is less hoarding of days. You also tend to get some work/life fusion going. Like if I am sick, I might sleep in, work for a couple hours when I’m feeling better, then go take a nap again vs if I have to take a sick day that whole day is fiercely guarded.

      Taking 2-3 consecutive weeks off is rare at most places I’ve worked. Someone might do it for rare special occasions like their wedding/honeymoon or a big trip home to India. In 100-200 person companies, I think there’d maybe be one of those long trips per year.

      Reply ↓
      1. AnotherSarah*

        Thank you, this is helpful! Your example of being sick and working here and there resonated; I did that last week and felt great about it.

        Reply ↓
    7. Hyaline*

      I imagine that flexible time + unlimited PTO, though separate policies, are probably working together to some degree–to avoid the need to nickel and dime people on stuff like dentists appointments as long as they’re getting work done. The core hours might mean setting your own core hours, but it might also mean that everyone has the same core hours (say, 10-2) so that you know you can reach people easily and schedule meetings (I’ve seen it mean both).

      I feel like you’re right that how PTO gets used in an unlimited situation can vary really widely based on company and probably even department–but I think there are questions you can ask to get a feel for how things go in any particular place? I know I’ve heard horror stories of “unlimited PTO” that translated to “no one takes PTO” because of company culture.

      1) I’d want to know what the policies are for approving planned PTO–does someone have to approve PTO other than sick/emergencies in advance, how far in advance, and how does that usually go? Is it typical for half days here and there to just get taken with no additional approval? Anything over a day requires approval? Is it unusual for approval requests to get denied, or if it does happen a decent amount, why?

      2) I’d also want to poke at the “vacation time culture” of the company and/or department–do most people take a weeklong vacation at some point in the year? Or more? Do people tend to take a few days here and there that add up to a couple weeks total, or are there a lot of people who do “summer hours” or similar where they do half-day Fridays as their version of PTO? Like–there’s nothing wrong with any of these, but if the culture is “no one takes long vacations, although everyone does long weekends pretty often and days here and there” and you’re a diehard “two weeks minimum at once” person, I’d want to know how that would fly–or vice versa!

      Reply ↓
      1. AnotherSarah*

        Yes, thank you! I definitely value the flexibility and availability of half days or a few full days at once more than weeks at a time, although every couple of years I do want to take a long trip. Would be amazing if that were possible.

        Reply ↓
    8. Wordybird*

      In my current role, I flex my days all the time to accommodate doctor’s appointments, my kids’ schedules, running errands, etc. My work is project-based so while there are deadlines that I need to meet, I don’t have any work that is done every single day or work that has to be done by a certain day or time during the week. I’m generally available during business hours but I don’t keep track to see if I’m working exactly 40 hours. As far as I know, my boss doesn’t keep track of my hours and I’m not required to track them. If I’m going to be gone less than 2 hours and don’t have any pressing deadlines, I flex my day without taking PTO. I assume that most of the people I work with operate the same way although, again, I don’t keep track (or care). My boss doesn’t require me to take my sick days, either, as long as they are a one-off a couple times a year; I just let them know at the beginning of the day that I can’t work.

      I take PTO if I’m going to be gone for at least half the day. My employer has summer hours with a shortened week for part of the summer so I’m sure some of my coworkers use that to their advantage in only having to take a half day of PTO to get a full day off. I don’t know of anyone who shortens their week regularly, though. Unfortunately, the culture at my employer is to be available as much as possible including on PTO/vacations when you’re a senior employee.

      Reply ↓
  38. New Fed*

    I’m looking to pursue professional development/education generally in finance/accounting, and curious if readers have any suggestions.

    My background has been in nonprofits/government and I’ve done everything from grants admin to program development to education/communications to fundraising. I have built budgets and had other fiscal duties like reporting, drawing down funds, monitoring budgets, but truly no formal training. I feel like I have an aptitude for financial management, and think it might be the best bang for my buck in terms of education/training. I know I probably won’t be getting a CFO position, but some training could put me in a better position for other leadership/management roles that have a fiscal component, or grant officer type positions which I’d be really interested in.
    Any suggestions on what to pursue? Should I learn quickbooks? Take a basic accounting course? Pursue a certification?

    Reply ↓
    1. Left Turn at Albuquerque*

      You might look into taking a few CPE courses to get your feet wet. CPAs are required to complete a set number of CPE hours to be able to renew their licenses so there are a LOT to choose from out there. I’m hesitant to include a link in case this ends up in the spam filter, but NASBA (National Association of State Boards of Accountancy) has some useful resources under the Education tab on their website.

      Reply ↓
    2. Hillary*

      Do you feel like you have the fundamentals already? For instance do you know how to read a p&l or do cost accounting?

      If no, basic finance classes at your local community college or online might be the way to start. The three required classes when I did my MBA were Financial Management, Financial Accounting, and Cost Accounting. Although it looks like Cost Accounting has been replaced in the core requirements since I graduated. Regardless, those three areas will give you a broad overview of finance and help you figure out what you want to do.

      If yes, really dig into the requirements of roles you’re interested in. A lot of times experience is enough, are there projects you can volunteer for to get more finance on your resume?

      I wouldn’t bother with quickbooks. That kind of hands-on work is the first thing to be delegated – I’m really looking forward to when I can afford a bookkeeper instead of doing it myself.

      Reply ↓
    3. ronda*

      having worked in accounting/ finance departments for my career.

      Accounting and Finance are often 2 different groups in large organizations. Accounting does the actuals reporting, so processing and recording all transactions, preparing all the financial statements, SEC reporting (if public company). Finance does the Budgeting and Forecasting and analysis of trends and business opportunities and the like. The Finance part is often considered the more high level part, but does rely on having an understanding of how the accounting works and how to analyze the financial data.

      Quickbooks is used by small companies to do the accounting, so I am not sure that will be very helpful for you. A basic accounting course might be helpful, then a basic finance course to give you an idea of if they are helpful for what you are doing. Non-profits have a specific kind of accounting they do that is somewhat different from the accounting you will usually see in a basic course. It is called fund accounting, so if you are looking specifically for non-profit accounting look at that. There is quite a bit of similarity, fund accounting adds an extra layer to it.

      Reply ↓
  39. Merry go round and round*

    Some good new for me but I’m hoping to cool some fears i have:

    I am leaving my job which I’ve had for 14 years. I was offered and have accepted a position working in the library of a state college. Anyone who watches the news might understand why I am a little nervous.

    With all the various cuts to funding and general attacks on knowledge, can I lose this job before I even get to start, would they have offered it if that can happen? As low man on the union totem pole, I assume it will be last in first out if something were to happen, and I’m hoping the people in the field might have some insight into the possibilities of how the next few years play out.

    In my mind there’s no scenario where I don’t leave, but in case you’re wondering I have always wanted this, the opportunity is rare for someone like me (no college education) and with all the cuts there is very little likelyhood I would get this opportunity again as I would be competing with a lot more very competent people for any future positions, my current job has been at a boiling point for a long time.

    Reply ↓
    1. AnotherSarah*

      I’m not in university libraries but my spouse is, and we’re both union members at the same state university. I think you’re right to be thinking about this but I don’t think you need to panic. (Or actually–don’t panic, it’s not helpful. But it’s good that you’ve got this on your radar.) Two things–

      1) being union helps! A lot. You can talk to your new union rep in confidence, if you want more details. I’m sure they’ve been talking about things like this. For us (unionized state university), union and admin have to work together to figure out cuts. Right now for us, that means empty positions won’t be backfilled except in extraordinary circumstances, and redundant positions are being eliminated. If you were just hired, I’d doubt you’re in danger of being considered redundant. The union process will also slow things down, a lot, which helps. Do talk to your rep and get a sense of things–it’s fine to say that you’re nervous as the most recent hire! They’ll get it.
      2) in terms of the issue of state versus private–it really depends on your state and it’s not really red v blue. If your university is not on the big list now, the major issues are state budget and its allocation, attitudes toward higher ed, things like that. I’m in a blue blue state but the state legislature has little interest in higher ed so it doesn’t really matter. (It might matter if your position is specifically DEI-aligned, though, and you’re in Ohio or Florida or….) The other big one is student loans and thus, tuition revenue. Your university will have a plan for that, and the plan might not be good, but I doubt the plan will immediately affect you. Honestly, if you aren’t at an R1, I think you’re in a better position than if you are, because less-expensive Directional State Colleges are going to become more desirable for students who might otherwise have wanted to go to Big Flagship University.

      Reply ↓
      1. Merry go round and round*

        Thank you so much for this, I think this is almost exactly what I needed to hear. I’m in a very blue state (not as blue as I would have liked this time around) and its not a dei position, but it is an R1 school. I read through the unions contract, but it was an old copy I found online, and I was feeling pretty comfortable based on that, but I’ve never been in a union and really don’t know what to expect yet. I’m just waiting on my background check to come back before I do any handstands

        Reply ↓
        1. AnotherSarah*

          That’s good! I’m glad it was helpful. Do talk to the rep–you’ll learn a lot and it won’t seem weird at all to them to know that you’re nervous. Do a search for “[your uni] CBA” and you’ll likely find an updated Collective Bargaining Agreement, though it won’t spell out anything about layoffs (probably).

          Reply ↓
    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      So, maybe I’m a bad example, because when I took my job, the Governor was threatening to shut down the entire university system, including the library where I was moving 3K miles to work. He backed down, but man… that was a stressful few months.

      But a friend of mine gave me two pieces of good advice at the time, which I will pass along to you, “In higher education, there’s always a threat. Sometimes that threat is State Government, sometimes that threat is Federal, if that’s going to keep you up too much at night, don’t work in Higher Ed.”

      Her other piece of advice was, “No one gets anywhere by standing still.”

      Long story short, I’m still working at this library two promotions later. And while if we lose federal funding, our Uni will shut down, I am continuing to stay where I am. I am putting more in savings than I used too, but honestly, I am not going to let the mess that is the current situation keep me from doing a job I believe matters in a place I love working with good people. So, I can’t tell you how to calculate that decision.

      Reply ↓
      1. Merry go round and round*

        This is actually really great advice for me to hear, because I’m absolutely with you – I’m certain I belong in a library, and I left my interview equally as certain that I belonged in this one. And I’ve been feeling a lot lately like I have been stuck and I need to move on

        Reply ↓
        1. AnotherSarah*

          This will be a good move for you. If you feel good in the culture there, for sure people will share your worries, and hopefully be trying to do something to improve the situation. Solidarity will help a lot.

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  40. Illogical*

    Looking for a sanity check. I have a fairly common firstName lastName combo that is also shared by a celebrity. Let’s say Will Smith. Obviously I can never get my name on any service, so I just took to appending a neutral number to my name. Unfortunately, the neutral number I chose decades ago is 47.

    No one’s going to be making (erroneous) assumptions about my politics because of this, right? I don’t need to go around changing my LinkedIn and email and the like, right? Separate from it being a logistical pain, after so many years that number is almost part of my identity and I don’t want to cede it to jerks.

    Thoughts?

    Reply ↓
    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I have an 88 in one of my social media handles. It’s the year I graduated from college, not a Nazi reference. Nobody has ever mentioned it.

      I think you’re fine.

      Reply ↓
      2. EMP*

        I’ve also seen 88s because it’s a common birth year for people who were making internet handles when goth_chick_1990 wasn’t a crazy username
        I wouldn’t have thought 47 was political until you said something, honestly, and I don’t think most people will be thinking that way when they’re using linkedin.

        Reply ↓
    2. Merry go round and round*

      There are definitely people that will make that possible leap, but I don’t think its worth changing all your contact info over. If it were me, I’d change my email signature to include a quote that resonates with me and reflect that I lean in the opposite direction.

      Reply ↓
    3. Pay no attention...*

      I think that if you have such a common name in your email, many people will simply assume that when you went to register the account, there were 46 other Will Smiths already registered so you were assigned or took the next number — I wouldn’t think it’s a political reference myself. Now if you had a really unique name and or non-name words in your email handle along with a 47, maaaaaybeeeeee I might wonder.

      Reply ↓
    5. Parakeet*

      If anything I would assume from a 47 that you were a Star Trek fan. The meaning you’re worried about would not have occurred to me.

      Reply ↓
    6. Rara Avis*

      My random number was assigned to me by gmail. I didn’t choose it. So people might assume that’s the case for you too.

      Reply ↓
  41. Justin*

    Vocab creep –

    I work in professional development/training and I am very clear that what I mean by that is structured programming with outcomes, assessments (not always tests, could be a presentation), rubrics, etc. That doesn’t mean they’re cookie-cutter, just that there’s a spine and scaffolding etc.

    I’ve been a teacher in some capacity for 17 years (jesus), have two degrees in education (in addition to a bachelor’s in English).

    So I know what I’m talking about.

    Yet I have noticed that people with less such expertise will use “Training” to mean all sorts of things that it definitely is not.

    I get invited to virtual “trainings” sometimes, and it’s literally just information about a new program that exists.

    Or things that are just panels, just Q and A, being called training.

    These other things are valuable and can contribute to knowledge growth, but there’s no, you know, curriculum, pedagogy, instructional design, what have you, so they’re really adjacent things. And I think this contributes to the extremely varied quality of “trainings,” because not only are some not really instructionally useful, but because there are so many that aren’t great, these other formats are what some people have come to expect, so when you’re like, okay, we’re going to practice, sometimes people respond with, WHAT IS THIS, SCHOOL? (basically). Which, uh, yes? (And a lot of people disliked school, understandably. But it wasn’t the fact that there was a structure at all that is the issue. And before someone brings it up, I have ADHD and struggled to focus in school, I get it! I make our trainings in such a way that I’m always thinking of how hard it is for ME to stay interested and plan as if someone in the group needs my level of support.)

    Anyway, to make it a question. What is some vocabulary creep in your field of expertise that you feel harms either your work or your field or both?

    Reply ↓
    1. Zona the Great*

      Well this is tangential but my partner does research in the alternative energies field. Real, peer-reviewed research with serious implications. He gets so angry at all these people who say, “I did my research and decided that the earth is only 10,000 years old”. Come to find out the “research” was on their church’s website, FFS. Or just on google.

      Reply ↓
      1. Justin*

        Yes, that’s really best described as “I briefly looked it up.”

        Similarly, I hate people saying “Anecdotes aren’t data,” and, they sure are! But they’re not PREDICTIVE, they’re useful in crafting a narrative.

        Having a doctorate is mostly being annoyed and biting my tongue, lol.

        Reply ↓
    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I’m an electrical engineer who does a lot of software, security, and networking. The amount of creep and appropriation by the lay public is unbelievable and monotonically approaches infinity.

      But here’s why it doesn’t bother me too much — it’s almost instantly clear to my colleagues and I when somebody uses a word in a work situation but doesn’t really know what it means (cue the Princess Bride). So that’s a great way to figure out the people who I need to engage with differently; I will immediately switch to different terminology, do a lot of “then a whole bunch of things happen under the covers that we don’t need to discuss the details about”, etc.

      When it gets into pop culture (with a lot of dramatic license and hand-waiving by the writers and art directors), which then leads to general misunderstanding and conspiracy theories in the wider public (hackers can use your thermostat to see what laundry detergent you use!1!!1!), that’s something else. I can address the misunderstandings one-on-one as I have time and need, speaking from a position of authority. But if it’s a down-the-rabbit-hole true believer, I just shrug and drop it; you can’t fix those people.

      Reply ↓
      2. Mad Scientist*

        Hi there, fellow engineer! One of my pet peeves is actually the misuse of the word engineering itself lol but I’m not sure if that counts as vocab creep necessarily.

        Reply ↓
    3. Training*

      Well, in corporate settings training can have many meanings. It’s up to you to pick a place that aligns with your views of what is/is not training if it’s important to you. Most people are happy if any form of training is available because it’s been going the way of the dodo and they’re just not going to be as ideologically pure.

      Reply ↓
    4. JustaTech*

      You mean listening to a bad robot voice read a slide deck to me about 21 CRF Part 11 where I don’t even take a 5 question multiple choice quiz isn’t really training?
      *extremely sarcastic* Well gosh!

      I think that for your field at least, part of it is the existence of mandatory “trainings” that were created decades ago without the benefit of an actual expert in training that so many corporate drones have to suffer through every year, so many people don’t know what “training” is actually supposed to be.
      Which is too bad! Thoughtful training is great! Robot voice talking about ISO 9001 is … not.

      Reply ↓
  42. foureyedlibrarian*

    How have you asked about a raise? Our team is down from a number between 6 and 10 to only 2. Thus I am doing the work of at least three people but only getting paid the same amount as before. Do I need a job offer from somewhere else to negotiate or am I in a position where I could ask for more money regardless?

    Reply ↓
    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I would absolutely ask for a raise! If you’re doing more work than you were hired to do, than you deserve a raise. Just ask. I used some of the scripts and advice on this site when it came time to ask for mine. And I got it.

      Good luck!

      Reply ↓
  43. RussianInTexas*

    I feel like this been answered, bit I can’t find it on the fly.
    I live in a suburb of a major city. My suburb is it’s own city of once square mile, and most people don’t even know it’s a city. Do I use my actual city name on the resume or the main metro area?

    Reply ↓
    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I always use actual city. People will just look up something if they aren’t familiar with it, and pretty much everybody has been somewhere with weird jurisdictional lines. If they’re from Texas, they won’t know Cambridge vs Boston, but they understand Dallas vs Arlington.

      Reply ↓
      1. DiorMouse*

        This Texan has eaten at Cambridge Common after taking the T in from Waltham, so I wouldn’t be so sure….

        Reply ↓
    2. Pay no attention...*

      Hopefully you aren’t using your home address on your resume at all, so if you are just trying to describe where you are looking for work, I would use the metro area. But I would also think that listing the locations of your current and previous employers is sufficient.

      Reply ↓
    5. ThatGirl*

      Using Chicagoland as an example here, if someone wrote “Norwood Park, IL” I think most people would know that was Chicago-adjacent, even if they didn’t know where it is exactly. But if it were East Hazel Crest, “Chicago metro” or “Cook County metro” would probably be more helpful.

      (Also, if your resume has “Chicago, IL” and “Oak Lawn, IL” as company locations, it would be more obvious where you lived.)

      So I really think it depends on your area and how much people would recognize the city name as being where it is.

      Reply ↓
    6. allx*

      If you’re applying within the major city (Houston), I think using West U as the identifying city is okay. People who live in Houston are aware of West U’s city-status. But also, ditto the comment about whether there is a need to use your home address at all. If we are in fact talking about West U in this thread, then I think you need to ask yourself whether there is an advantage in telegraphing affluence, because that’s what a West University Place address does.

      Reply ↓
      1. RussianInTexas*

        It is not West U, and it’s a location that does not telegraph anything, because most people know it as a suburb like say, Briar Forest, but not an actual city.

        Reply ↓
    7. State worker*

      I live in an exurb of a major metro, and for me it depends on where I’m applying. If the position is localish, I’ll use my little town. If the job is in the city, I’ll use Greater Metro.

      Reply ↓
  44. AnotherAcademic*

    I am scheduled for a first-round zoom interview. What questions can I ask to help figure out company culture? That is probably the most important factor to me as I consider a new job.

    Reply ↓
    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I would hit Glassdoor, the company web page, etc first – especially to see if there are major discrepancies. I would also figure out what the general industry culture is, what you do or don’t like about it, and then ask question that hone in on this particular company.

      “I know a lot of teapot manufacturers have cyclical business patterns that sometime cause unscheduled overtime. What do you do to mitigate that?”

      Reply ↓
    2. spcepickle*

      What part of company culture is important to you?
      Did they tell you how many interview there would be? I would break up my questions asking more specific questions in later interviews. That would be my first question, can you tell me what the interview process will look like. My company hires after one virtual interview.

      For me flexibility and time off are really important. So I have asked about work schedules and flexibility around that. I love working 9 hours a day and getting every other Friday off, so I ask if that is a schedule that people have. I also ask about vacation time and how many people take all their vacation time. This tells me about work life balance in the company.
      Also as a women who’s job requires that I wear specific safety gear I have started asking what range of safety gear sizes they provide and how safety gear is paid for. This gives me a really good in sight into how they think about diversity. If a place only has one cut that comes in limited sizes I don’t want to work for them.

      Also as a hiring manager once we are to the offer stage I would totally put you in contact with people who do the same job I am hiring for, so you could talk to people about my management style and ask questions with fear of it reflecting on your chances. But I would not ask for that until you were offered the position.

      Reply ↓
    3. cubone*

      If the company lists their values somewhere on their website, ask how those come into play day to day.

      Eg. “I saw on your website that your company values innovation and creativity. Can you give me an example of what that looks like in the day-to-day?”

      I also really like:
      -How do you handle periods of stress or busyness on your team?
      -Could you give me an example of a situation recently where the team faced a challenge, and how they dealt with it?

      Reply ↓
    4. ImHereForTheUpdates*

      I have been on the other end but here are some questions you could utilize:
      What does a typical work day look like?
      If you are replacing somebody, you can ask why they left/why the position is available and what kind of support there is in terms of onboarding (this is especially important if you are filling a position that is new to the company).
      What kind of management style does the company have (communication styles; emails; Teams/Slack; in-person; phone).
      How will this role evolve over time? (will they pile on other duties because they don’t have enough people?)
      How long have people been with this company in general? (turnover?)
      What would current employees say about this company when asked?

      FWIW – I appreciate the more person-centered questions. Because let’s face it – you can learn to do a job but when you don’t get along with the co-workers it can make for looooong days…

      Good luck!

      Reply ↓
    5. Merry go round and round*

      When I was interviewing, as a way of finding out a little more about how the company operated, and also what the team thought of it one of my questions was, “How was this position/department/company affected by the pandemic, were there changes to the workload? Adjusted hours, hybrid work, layoffs? And did any of these changes remain, or did you revert back to the previous norms?

      Reply ↓
  45. Likely Underpaid*

    How much more money do managers typically make than the employees they manage? I have access this information since I work with payroll, and I’m aware that my manager makes 150 – 170% more than me. Additionally, my coworker, who is also managed by the same manager, and I are doing the majority of the work in our department. We do many of the job responsibilities that should be done by our manager. She makes more than both of our salaries combined. Is it common for managers to make significantly more money that the employees they are managing?

    Reply ↓
    1. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

      I’m two steps more senior than my highest-level direct report and six steps higher than my lowest-level direct report (I manage entry level-middle managers). I’ve got almost 15 years’ experience in my field, the highest-level DR has 7 years, and the entry-level has less than one year.

      I make 18% more than the highest-level DR and about 2x the entry-level. Having been with this company for 5+ years I also get 5 days’ more vacation time than the under-5-yrs folks (everyone starts with 20).

      I think we’re a bit flatter at more senior levels than is typical – our payscale includes rapid salary growth from entry level to middle management and then flattens out.

      Reply ↓
    2. Hiring Mgr*

      I don’t know if there’s a typical answer to that question. In sales for example, it’s not uncommon for an employee to earn more than their mgr (commissions).

      Reply ↓
    3. spcepickle*

      I make about 20% more than my first line manager, I mange the whole team and I have an assistant manager between us. My first line managers make just over 10% more then our average mid range engineers. I think my boss makes maybe 10% more than I do (one reason I never bother going for a promotion).
      Basic Engineer – $91k / year
      Project Manager (first line people manager) – $100k/year
      Me managing the whole team and all the project – $120/year

      BUT my team is all eligible for overtime (at time and half) and because of the work we do many of the basic engineers work nights in the summer which is a $2/hr premium. I am standard exempt, so no overtime, no night premium. All summer when we are busy my team will make at least as much if not more than me.

      Reply ↓
    4. Parenthesis Guy*

      Depends on the manager level vs the employee level. For example, if it’s a one-grade difference between a manager and employees, then you wouldn’t expect that big of a difference. But if it’s three or four grades… something like that could happen.

      The question you need to ask yourself is what would happen if your manager left. Would they promote one of you to the position or would they hire outside the company? If they wouldn’t consider you for her job, this might be a case where you’re multiple grades below your boss, and such a difference in salary is more likely to happen.

      Although, 150 to 170 percent is drastic even for a three grade difference.

      Reply ↓
    5. JustaTech*

      It is entirely possible that the person I sort-of manage (yay ongoing no promotions!) has the same or higher base salary (and we don’t have commission or anything).

      I think my old boss probably made ~125% of my salary? But he also had a much higher title and a PhD.

      Reply ↓
  46. Letherebelight*

    Would you say something or let it go? Partly a vent, as I’m leaning towards “just let it go” especially in this economy and job market but…

    I’m a salaried exempt employee and 100% remote worker. We don’t clock in or out, and only track PTO in terms of timesheets. *Some* people on our team do clock in and out and are hourly or non-exempt.

    Of course and naturally the expectation is 8 hours of work a day. No issues there. Makes sense, although I personally and privately disagree that this is needed. But it’s a standard across every office I’ve worked at, so no surprise.

    My issue is that my boss recently mentioned in a team meeting that he has access to reports that indicate some people aren’t putting in 8 hours/7.5 hours of straight work a day–the implication being that he’s specifically looking for constant productivity or action status for 7.5 hours a day, every day, all week. He noted he’s flexible with appointments and start/end times (which is true to a point) but this is a warning. He also brought up admin work with the implication that if we need to “fill” 7.5 hours. He’s also previously asked for a “shift”, meaning a commitment to a consistent start and end time per day, which is edging towards micromanagement to me.

    This really left a sour taste in my mouth in two ways:

    I’ve occasionally worked more than 8 hours and in a few cases, popped onto the computer on weekends to take care of things. This “reminder” makes me want to immediately cease that.
    It grates on me that instead of “get the assigned work done” it’s butts in seats hourly to the point that reports are being pulled to see who is not working that 2 hours or whatever. It reminds me of the boss who out of nowhere accused me of clock-watching when I was logging out right on time to catch a bus, completely overlooking that I was often skipping lunch and breaks and logging in early.

    This is the scenario I don’t want as a salaried employee. I don’t want to have to “kill time” when my work is at a stopping point and I’m waiting for something from others because I “have” to put in my 7.5 hours a day regardless of the reality. I want to be trusted as an adult with 15 years of work experience that occasionally I’ll do 9 hours, other times 6.

    I doubt there’s a way to even bring this up without attracting unwanted attention to myself or seem like a “problem” employee but is there a way?

    Reply ↓
    1. Balanceofthemis*

      I would definitely stop working on weekends regardless. Unfortunately, I don’t see a way to push back without drawing attention to yourself. It’s possible that this was a ham handed way of calling out people who are consistently logging off early, and are not available when something comes up, and using the excuse that their work was done.

      You could just keep doing what you’ve been doing and see how it goes. If you are available when work needs to be done, you shouldn’t need to show 7.5 hours of consistent productivity, that’s not realistic.

      Reply ↓
      2. Letherebelight*

        I assume Teams status or Outlook activity reports, but it’s not clear. The payroll system was mentioned, but I’m not sure how that could track anything other than PTO and log in and out. I sort of assumed the warning was for the hourly people, perhaps they’re sort of…shaving hours here and there that started off as 15 minutes leaving early for traffic and is now hours and hours every month type thing. Maybe?

        Reply ↓
  47. pinkjar*

    This JUST happened, so I’m glad it’s the Friday open thread!
    I am pregnant, and most coworkers know my family baby shower is Sunday. A coworker with whom I work closely just handed me $100 as a gift for the shower. It is not unusual at all to gift money or things for babies and weddings, but this feels a little different. This particular coworker is an older gentleman, and earlier in the year, he was continually attempting to buy me things like lunch and gifts. It was very uncomfortable, and I quickly decided to sit down with my boss, who promptly put a stop to it. I really, truly don’t think there was any bad intent – definitely more of a generational difference and him knowing that I am very underpaid. But it still made me quite uncomfortable. This money, though, is explicitly for the baby shower, and I felt too weird to refuse it when I had four other large gifts sitting on my desk. Should I have refused? Should I mention it to my boss? Again, this was explicitly for the baby shower, and this is very much a gift-giving office.

    Reply ↓
    1. Not your typical admin*

      For a specific thing like a baby shower I would let it be, especially if he was respectful and stopped the other gift giving. Congratulations on your little one!!

      Reply ↓
    2. WellRed*

      If others also gave you gifts it’s fine to accept it. But I want to add for future reference: there no such thing as “generational” gift giving between and older gentleman and a younger woman. It made you uncomfortable because it’s inappropriate.

      Reply ↓
      2. Hyaline*

        I read this as a generational difference of expectations and norms, not “generational gift giving between generations.” And I kinda think there can be cultural discrepancies in that vein (as generations are kinda their own culture in some ways), but if pinkjar feels uncomfortable, that’s not excusing it or suggesting she should let it continue, just explaining why it doesn’t necessarily have to be nefarious. Shutting it down is fair no matter what his reasons.

        Reply ↓
    3. Roland*

      I don’t think I would mention it to your boss unless you feel he is “escalating” to his previous everyday behavior. I understand that it made you uncomfortable due to the history, no judgement there! But it’s not necessarily a sign of anything other than him thinking “baby shower = gift”, and maybe even “I don’t want to look like I’m retaliating in any way” due to your office being a gift-y office. If it does become the start of a new pattern then you could mention it at that point.

      Mazal tov!

      Reply ↓
  48. Parasitoids Need Love Too*

    I escaped an incredibly toxic work situation and have been in my new, functional (ish, we’re federal in the USA) job for four months. While my new boss is incredibly competent and a great manager, I’m still struggling to recalibrate to normal workplace norms.

    For those of you who’ve escaped bad working situations, how long did it take you to readjust to functional norms? I second guess myself ALL the time, looking for my boss to proofread very normal emails and then struggling to include him in other things because of how my last two workplaces functioned.

    Thank you!

    Reply ↓
    1. FISH*

      It took me about six months to be able to pretend to be a normal person (and able to recognize some of the “I don’t need him to check this, this is fine” vs “actually another set of eyes on this is reasonable and necessary”) and about a year before I wasn’t over thinking every step to make sure I wasn’t bringing the unnecessary behavior up. There are a few points even two plus years that still trip me up, but I would say that’s like once every two months and not constant.

      You’ve got this. Good luck.

      Reply ↓
      1. Parasitoids Need Love Too*

        Thank you! That means a lot. And it is so nice to hear that my recovery timeline is reasonable. Part of me feels like I should be able to switch off my coping mechanisms, but I also recognize that that’s unreasonable.

        Reply ↓
    2. Hillary*

      It took more than a year to really feel like myself again. My boss would call me and ask me to come to his office and I’d freak out inside. And every time he wanted help with excel. Eventually I internalized what I understood intellectually and my emotions caught up with reality.

      The process stinks – please try to be kind to yourself.

      Reply ↓
      1. Parasitoids Need Love Too*

        It absolutely stinks, and thank you for your kind words. It is like I intellectually understand I am out of the terrible work situation, but emotionally my body goes right back to bracing for toxicity. Blech! I’m so excited to get caught up with reality.

        Reply ↓
    3. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      I would say 3 months was when I wasn’t constantly on edge but full recovery was closer to 2 years from toxic job #2. It’s one where I had endless potential and could never really blossom because the overall culture/systemic stuff got in the way of me moving forward. I’ve also found that stuff I observed there while being hypervigilant in case it was necessary … has helped me navigate workplace politics exceptionally well in my current job. So there may end up being plus sides for you as well.

      Toxic workplace #1 was more complicated/much worse and of shorter duration, so recovery there was closer to grief or another delayed reaction that comes in waves. I’d mostly be over it then a specific memory would pop up and I’d have a bad day. I left that job in 2010 and honestly still sometimes realize that boss’s particular brand of toxicity echoes in other bad actors I’ve encountered at work or in life.

      If nothing else, be kind to yourself. Bad work situations are so hard to see when you’re in the middle of them and can have a pretty big impact. It sounds like you are doing just fine.

      Reply ↓
    4. Aggretsuko*

      I’m still trying to adjust and it’s been over a year since I was in my bad office and ten months in this job.

      Reply ↓
  49. Sadge*

    Just a little commiseration thread in case anyone else is currently grieving and trying to be normal at work. I lost a close relative on Tuesday and managed exactly 1.5 days of “take all the time you need” before work came crowding back in, so it’s intermittent crying while working for the second day in a row.

    Reply ↓
    1. Parasitoids Need Love Too*

      I’m sending you lots and lots of virtual support. I’m so sorry you’re going through this. I hope you can get the rest and grieving time you need.

      Reply ↓
    3. Not That Jane*

      Oof. No advice, just commiseration as I am about to be here (close relative is terminally ill). I’m considering working with my dr to take a short medical leave.

      Reply ↓
    4. mreasy*

      I’m so sorry for your loss, and I’m in the same boat. I know all the best spots in my office for covert cries – but also just so TIRED. Grief is exhausting. Getting up in the morning is hard enough. All I can say is… everyone tells me this will get better over time. Sending support!

      Reply ↓
    5. ImHereForTheUpdates*

      I know it’s not helpful but I think it should be acceptable to show emotions at work. We don’t switch off our personal life when coming to work and especially for a loss such as yours – it will take time and will come up again and again – prob in the most unfortunate moments. I hope you have somebody at work you can lean on a bit. But I agree with a previous commenter: take breaks, re-charge whenever possible and maybe take a personal day when needed (if possible). Sending good thoughts and all the best to you.

      Reply ↓
    6. Irish Teacher.*

      Sorry for your loss.

      I lost my mum last Sunday and have told work I’ll be back on Monday. So I basically took four working days off as last Monday was a bank holiday in Ireland for reasons the whole world probably knows!

      Reply ↓
  50. The Ginger Ginger*

    I don’t really know how to manage normal life right now. Particularly work. How are people managing to drag themselves into work and performing well enough to stay employed at the moment when it feels like we’re watching the death of democracy in real time? I feel like more and more of my brain is being taken over by fear. I’m not even allowing myself to just fire hose current events, and it’s still bad!

    Living in the US feels like a daily tidal wave of new horrors. I’m incredibly worried about job security in what appears to be an inevitable recession. I have no trust in institutions right now – they’re either being actively attacked or actively doing the attacking. And I’m trying to figure out how to help/push for change/generally get myself out of bed in the morning.

    How do you manage working with depression that isn’t just brain chemistry, but is in fact, a totally reasonable response to the world?

    Reply ↓
    1. Lemons*

      You need to disconnect from news/social media when it’s interfering with your life like this. Spend your time taking steps to make yourself feel more prepared for any horrors that may come, whatever that means for you.

      But also, notice that there’s a lot of protests and good things happening that are not being covered by the media at all.

      Reply ↓
    2. tabloidtainted*

      Mostly by becoming disillusioned by this country far, far earlier than this year. Essentially—it takes time to get through those feelings and come out the other side.

      Reply ↓
    3. Hlao-roo*

      Read the Captain Awkward post #450: How to tighten up your game at work when you’re depressed. (I’ll link in a follow-up comment.) I think it works for state-of-the-world depression as well as brain chemistry depression.

      I hope this doesn’t come off as too “sunshine-and-rainbows,” but it might also help to remember the following things:

      – Most* people are not in any immediate, physical danger from these changes. If “most” includes you, remember that you are not in any immediate, physical danger from these changes.

      – During a recession, the unemployment rate goes up, but most people still have jobs. A 10% unemployment rate means that 90% of workers still have jobs. They may not be good jobs and the unemployment rate just counts “workers” not “people,” so sometimes the state of things is worse than the numbers that get reported. But it’s helpful to remember that there’s a big different between a recession and “no jobs exist for anyone.”

      *Some people are being immediately and negatively affected, and I don’t mean to downplay that. I do also worry a bit about changes being made now that may have negative consequences down the line. But as someone who isn’t in imminent danger “I have food and shelter and a job” works for me to get myself out of bed in the morning.

      Reply ↓
    4. Wallaby, Well I'll Be*

      Put your phone down. The people that I know who are like this are addicted to their phones and are getting sucked in by bizarre left-wing conspiracy theories. My MIL is like this. She’s in the midst of a nervous breakdown because she’s convinced martial law is going to be declared and “they” are going to start shooting people in the streets.

      Not saying things aren’t bad. They are. But remember, jobs have never been secure in the US. We have always been a country that is hostile to workers. Focus on yourself and your friends and your family.

      Reply ↓
    5. WorkerDrone*

      I personally just have to disconnect. I check the news briefly in the mornings – I literally set a timer, no more than 10 minutes, and then I move on and I refuse to engage with politics.

      Right now, I have no ability to do anything about any of this. Focusing on all of *gestures wildly* this does absolutely nothing but make me more anxious and worried. If there IS something useful I can do, great, that changes the equation and I will focus in more on those areas I think I can help with. Otherwise, I’m drastically limiting my engagement with screens (news, blogs, etc) and doing my best to maximize my engagement with daily life.

      Life will bring me enough sorrow along the way. I’m not going to deliberately drown myself in it before I need to when it’s neither useful nor helpful, and right now, being plugged in to the 24/7 news cycle is deliberately drowning myself.

      Reply ↓
    6. EMP*

      I literally just re-started therapy in part because of spirals like this

      Starting to practice meditation sounds corny but is actually helping. I am assuming here that you aren’t in immediate danger to the point of taking actionable steps but rather, you’re having a lot of thoughts about stuff that’s bad that it’s making you feel bad. The meditation helps separate “these are thoughts that I’m having” from the feelings of something actually happening to you right now.

      Focusing on what you can control can also help a lot. It doesn’t even have to be overtly political, though you can go that way if you want to – there are a lot of groups both local and national who are organizing. Do you have a green space (park, pond, conservation land) nearby that has a volunteer group you want to join? I have pledged to join the biannual cleanup day for ours next month. Does your library have a reading group that sounds interesting? I have found identifying the real, tangible, hyper local (like, within blocks of my house) opportunities helps me move forward.

      This is not to dismiss the problems we are facing, but it’s also not actually benefiting anyone or anything to dwell on them in the privacy of your own head. Good luck, and know that you aren’t alone in your feelings.

      Reply ↓
    7. A*

      It might help to think a bit smaller. An account I follow says “do for one person what you want to do for everybody.” What this means is that you find people in your community who are making the chances you want to see and help them.

      You probably can’t change immigration policy. Can you find a refugee non-profit in your area and donate money or time? That is but one example.

      Reply ↓
    8. The Ginger Ginger*

      I’m actually already limiting social media, finding charities to get involved with locally, trying to improve my sleep health (very hard), and getting back into therapy. All of that is happening, but all of that feels more important than WORK at the moment. That’s my real struggle. I’m so disengaged and listless about my super unimportant job right now. I mean, I need the money so it is critical in that sense, but the content of the work is seeming so unimportant in light of everything else, I just am having so much trouble engaging with it at all.

      Reply ↓
      1. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

        yeah, me tooooo. My job is adjacent to what’s going on in politics so I can’t escape it during my work hours, but it’s also unlikely that my company can be effective at doing anything we’re supposed to be doing in this context, so the pointlessness is hitting hard.

        I’ve found solace in highly task-oriented to-do lists. I can stay focused for 2-3 tasks before I stop giving a shit for an hour or so. Also giving myself permission to be at like, 75% at best right now. Separating out “business-critical” work from “nice to have” work and not worrying about all the “nice to have’s” not getting done. Connecting with colleagues around shared purpose (even if that purpose is just “we want this presentation to go really well next week). Giving lotsssss of positive feedback to coworkers, looking for small ways to lift up your peers’ achievements.

        Reply ↓
      2. Hillary*

        You have to put on your own oxygen mask first. I’m glad you’re getting back into therapy. If you’re on meds it might be worth a conversation with your prescriber about if things are still the right fit.

        I try to focus on what’s in front of me and what can I control. I can’t personally fix the world, but I can volunteer. I know what I need to do for my business in March, April, and May, and I’m trying to not think about June or July yet.

        Are you spending time with your friends and loved ones? A lot of us lost our social habits during the pandemic (I certainly did) and we need to actively, intentionally rebuild our communities.

        Reply ↓
        1. The Ginger Ginger*

          Oh I bumped the med dosage about 5 weeks ago, and certainly that helps, but you really can’t medicate away worry that is REAL. Meds are for when your brain is giving you signals that are not based on reality.

          Reply ↓
    9. Tea Monk*

      No clue. Even with less social media/ news ( I know people will suggest this to you as if the downfall of America is a show you’re watching and you don’t like) I feel kinda numb and going through the motions

      Reply ↓
      1. The Ginger Ginger*

        EXACTLY! I don’t really know how to talk to people who want me to not worry and focus on me, since I’ll (probably????) be fine. Like it’s some sort of conspiracy theory that in just 2 months this administration has started a trade war with our closest and long time allies (breaking a trade deal THIS ADMIN originally brokered!), or has given unprecedented access to unelected cowboys. When we’re using the same act that gave us shameful WWII internment camps to deport people without due process and disappearing them into who knows where. When we’re trying to change the legal status of a huge swathe of US citizens so they can also be deported (which is how the Nazis behaved with the Jews). Or pulled funding for critical global health efforts like tuberculosis treatment and HIV prevention that will result in millions of unnecessary deaths. Like it shouldn’t concern me to watch the rights of trans people, minorities, women, children, disabled people, everyone but white Christian cis-men be rolled back, undoing decades of incredibly difficult work and progress, because at least it ain’t me????

        I’m not really interested in only worrying about myself because at least I’m not the one suffering. I categorically refute the opinion that America’s problem is empathy. Empathy is our strength, and I am not going to just comply with this absolute horse shit in advance just so I can stay comfortable for a few days longer than my neighbors who are legitimately scared right now.

        But this is also why I don’t know how to care about your stupid marketing campaign advertising things that no one needs right now!

        Reply ↓
        1. Tea Monk*

          Yes, we need to shore up things so when everything collapses it’s not so bad. I’m not saying get sucked into the discourse and don’t do your job, but I’m starting to connect more to people irl who are concerned about these things so that my nervous energy is channeled and I can say ” enough”.

          everyone has a lane. Some protest, some do art, some garden so people have food, some connect with neighbors. I think once you have balance there you may be able to care more about your job. But then again it’s Friday and I’m not doing this tedious paperwork

          Reply ↓
        2. FedAnon*

          I appreciate this and the comment above it so much, especially “as if the downfall of America is a show you’re watching and you don’t like”.

          Not all of us have the luxury or desire to simply tune it out.

          Especially, personally, as a federal worker, I feel like I have to pay attention to at least a certain extent. That doesn’t mean I’m doomscrolling, but I do feel like I need to be informed about what’s going on. And honestly, I feel like I can’t even keep up with the news compared to my coworkers.

          Reply ↓
    10. Busy Middle Manager*

      As someone who’s followed economics closely for years, I need to push back against this idea that there was suddenly a wave of bad information come late Jan 2025.

      You mention recession. 99% of things leading a recession had already been happening since 2022/2023 and were right there in government reports/in the data. You learn after years, that the news broadcasters, never say “this data is bad,” they always gloss over it. The Federal Reserve doesn’t want panic, so will say the economy is great even during a recession. You only realize it after the fact.

      We’ve had loads of reports showing negative consumer, purchase manager sentiment, higher delinquencies on loans, consumers carrying more and more debt, home sales dropping and not recovering, etc.

      Look at the stock market reaction to July and August job reports. Both were horrible and caused a stock market panic, which is why rate cuts happened in September.

      One bright spot of any coming recession is that, unlike 2008 (or perhaps like 2008) It might not hurt as many people. In 2008, people were caught off-guard and lost a lot of asset value. Now? So many people are already struggling with cost of living, inability to find a job/living wage, can’t buy a house, so they have less to lose. A recession will probably deflate insane bubbles in everything from car prices to insane rents.

      Reply ↓
    12. Parasitoids Need Love Too*

      Focus on where you can contribute. Can you call your reps? Do that once or twice a week. Can you attend town halls? Do that. Participate in local elections. If that is too overwhelming, volunteer with your community. Maybe volunteer with a woman’s group, your local Planned Parenthood, a refugee nonprofit, local park or forest, etc. Build community! Talk to your neighbors, find common ground and build relationships through that.

      And remember that there have been horrific moments throughout history and people have always found joy. They’ve always created and built community and love and humor. Building community and finding joy can be harder, but never impossible.

      Reply ↓
    13. Mesquito*

      I don’t work directly for the feds but the org I just joined is heavy on the federal funding. I work at a near-statewide food bank – I just left one dying, unstable industry for this one because I thought “everyone will always need food banks,” lol. As you may have heard, a LOT of our USDA programs just got wiped out.

      I love it! it’s a challenge, and I’m in a position to make an even bigger difference than usual. My particular job security might be undermined but in the past two weeks, all of my coworkers have had to bring their absolute a-game to make up for slashed funding and avoiding letting down the community. it inspires me to step up my own game and bring out the best in what I can do, at work and after. Things will always be getting worse from above, that’s just the phase of history we were born into. it’s what we do on the bottom that brings meaning to our lives. And I think that’s the answer, to find a group you can work (a job or volunteer) with to create a better way of doing things. They wouldn’t call it “The Struggle” if it was easy!

      Reply ↓
    14. Double A*

      If you weren’t reading the news, would life actually feel like a tidal wave of horrors? As in, are horrific things currently and specifically happening around you? Or is it that you are aware of terrible things that both are happening, and also you are worried about things that could happen?

      Ground yourself in what is actually true around you right now, not that is true far away or what could be true in the future. It’s not that the terrible and possible things aren’t real or very possible, it’s that worrying about them is doing you active harm.

      I go in and do my job to the best of my ability because that is my role in upholding the systems. You’re horrified at people trying to tear down institutions? Then uphold your little piece of yours. If you’re part of a destructive institution, throw sand into the gears of its destruction the best you can. By throwing up your hands and giving in to fear, anxiety, and worst case scenarios you are aiding and abetting those for whom this is the end goal.

      Reply ↓
  51. RhubarbCrumble*

    I am in the UK and being made redundant. They started the individual consultation this week. I won’t lose the role until August.

    Has anyone been through this? Any suggestions of things to bring up or ask about etc.? I will hit 8 years in June will they calculate it for 7 or 8 years?

    My work usually gives raises in April each year. Should I still expect one? And should my redundancy pay be at the new rate if I do get it or at my current salary?

    sorry I have never had this happen and am so nervous now. I have a consultation meeting next week and don’t know what to do.

    Reply ↓
  52. HonorBox*

    ARGH. Just a vent on a Friday. Long story short, I’m taking over running operations of a partner organization to my workplace. I need to hire someone relatively quickly for sales, and while it isn’t difficult sales, having some background in the industry would help tremendously. I’d been talking to someone who had interest and has experience with this kind of sales, and they just let me know that they’re planning to stay at their present workplace. So on top of running operations, I’ll also be doing some selling it sounds like. Dang it. Not the way I wanted to go into the weekend…

    Reply ↓
  53. FISH*

    I attended a lunch meeting yesterday where after we finished eating different groups gave quick updates about their section. This is a semi regular reoccurring meeting but sufficient time passes between meetings for the updates to be necessary.

    As usual it went long, ten minutes over and we weren’t done. There was only one section left to go but the meeting organizer told people that if they had other obligations to get to they could go. A group of about four did, but they were still in the back of the room by the food and talking loudly enough to be disruptive as the last group tried to present.

    The presenter, who is Asian American but English is not his first language, called them out for being loud — by getting louder and saying “if the people in the back would shut up!” So not professional —but not unreasonable. However the people in the back got offended and one of them said “maybe if we could understand you! Speak English!” And the presenter and he shared a few more words. This was said in a faux joking way but struck me as deeply problematic.

    I work in a different building than these two and I think they are normally friendly — however, I’m still uncomfortable and unsure what my course of action should be. I’m unclear if it was joking or not, which means it wasn’t a very good joke, but I also don’t want the presenter to have to deal with scrutiny. I am waffling between going to HR or trying to talk to the presenter. But it wasn’t my meeting and I don’t have a leadership role and have been here less long than everyone else.

    Any advice would be appreciated.

    Reply ↓
    1. EMP*

      > am waffling between going to HR or trying to talk to the presenter.

      I would talk to the heckler! That’s such an inappropriate thing to say to someone.

      Reply ↓
    2. Chauncy Gardener*

      Oh my. That is so uncool on so many levels. The people who were leaving should have GTFO of the room as fast and as quietly as possible. And the heckler should be reprimanded by HR.
      Geez!

      Reply ↓
    3. cubone*

      I’m more on your wavelength about talking to the presenter vs the heckler. I think I’d say something like:
      “hey [presenter], I just wanted to address that I thought it was pretty weird and inappropriate the way [heckler] responded to you when you asked them to be quiet. Maybe you two have a different relationship than I understood, but it felt out of line to me. If it made you uncomfortable too, I’m happy to speak with HR about it (from my own perspective of course, not on your behalf), but I wanted to talk to you first.”

      On one hand, if you see someone doing something racist, you don’t need someone’s approval to address it…. but I also find in these situations what’s most important to me is that the person on the receiving end of the microaggression (/outright racism?) feels supported and that I don’t act in a way that puts them in a position they don’t want to be in.

      Reply ↓
  54. RD*

    If you work a 12 month FT (40 hour a week) job, how many days off do you think is a reasonable and ideal amount of PTO? Not including holidays, but inclusive of any use of time (vacation, personal sick leave etc.)

    Reply ↓
    4. A*

      I have a bit of an annoying follow up question. Does “holidays” mean the major holidays like Christmas, 4th of July? Or all federal government holidays? If it’s all federal government holidays then I would say reasonable is 18 days. If it’s just major holidays than reasonable is 21 days. Ideal is way more, obviously.

      But what I really like is for PTO to be measured by hours and not days. In which case my calculations would be:

      Reasonable: 150 hours (I said 18 days above, this is a nice round number and I like that).

      Ideal: 200 hours.

      Reply ↓
    5. WantonSeedStitch*

      My workplace offers 15 days of vacation for the first year of employment, increasing to 20 days for your second year (accrued monthly). Starting on your tenth year of service, every five years, you get an additional five vacation days that are a separate one-time pot from your yearly vacation accrual, and which need to be taken some time before that five year period is up. You can roll over regular vacation days up to 40. We get 20 days of sick time upon hire, and after the first year, you accrue one day of sick time per month. You can roll over sick time up to a max of 132 days (basically, this means for someone who’s not often sick and has been here for a long time, if you have to go out on FMLA, you can get paid at your normal rate for most or all of it–that’s the intention behind the huge max).

      Reply ↓
    7. spcepickle*

      I want at least 15 days of vacation time AND at least 12 days of sick time a year. And they all need to rollover. Where I work now you can roll over your sick time forever but it does not cash out when you leave. If you retire they will buy out sick time at 25% into a fund that you can use for health related expenses.
      You can also save up to 240 vacation hours, if you have more than that you just stop accruing until you take time off. They do payout your vacation time when you leave.
      We also get 11 paid holidays and a personal leave day.
      It took me a while to get use to having separate buckets for sick and vacation time. I have come to the conclusion that it makes things fairer for people who need more sick time because of life. As someone is lucky to be pretty healthy and who does not care give for anyone I have a large pool of sick time. I see it as a bit of extra retirement savings, and we have a shared leave pool at work that I regularly donate too. But I also respect people who might have zero sick time saved also should get to take planned vacations even if they are

      Reply ↓
      1. A*

        I think it is reasonable to limit rollover of vacation and sick time. Like maximum 10 days rollover for up to 3 years.

        I don’t think it is reasonable to have open ended or unlimited rollover.

        Reply ↓
        1. spcepickle*

          I currently have about 400 hours of sick time banked and it is 100% my short term disability insurance. If I get hit by a bus I know I have time off to recover while my job is safe and my bills will be paid. On days I think about leaving my job the idea that I would have to start over with building up vacation time and knowing that most jobs will not let me bank that kind of sick time is one of the things that makes me think a little harder about job hunting.
          Also we have an incredibly diverse staff and one of the minor reasons we get to attract and keep people is that people can bank enough vacation time to take 6 weeks off at once. Which means when they are traveling back home (often to places in the Middle East or Africa) is a big enough chunk of time to make the plane tickets and time zone changes worth it.
          For me and my priorities giving people time off in big easy to take chunks is worth the short term hassle for the long term pay off of team retention.

          Reply ↓
      2. SickTime*

        Wow. I’ve never worked or interviewed at any place that rolls over sick time. I have had 5 days of vacation roll over, but only a few times.

        Reply ↓
    8. Alex*

      I get 15 vacation days, 12 sick days, and 3 personal days. I feel like that is medium-generous for the US. We also get between 17-19 paid holidays, which I feel is extra generous for the US (this includes closure between Christmas and New Year).

      Reply ↓
    9. mreasy*

      I think 3 weeks vacation & 1 week sick time are the minimum I’d think are okay.
      Ideal? 6 weeks vacation & unlimited sick time when you need it, with the understanding that employees aren’t going to abuse the system.

      Reply ↓
    10. Clisby*

      At the job I retired from, you accrued 1.5 days of sick leave/month, so 18/year. You could roll it over – for me, it paid for 6 weeks of maternity leave (I had FMLA, but sick leave paid for part of that.) Vacation time was completely separate – I had 4 weeks when I retired, and a couple of weeks I hadn’t taken were paid out. (Sick leave was not paid out).

      Reply ↓
    11. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I have 35 days (280 hrs) of PTO per year (accrued at 10.something hours per 2 week pay period), including our six official holidays and a combined bucket of vacation/sick time. Unused PTO is paid out on departure and stops accruing at 360 hours.

      You also have the option during open enrollment to have a chunk of PTO paid out the following fall, but that is kind of handwavey – it’s somewhere between 8-80 hours, but you don’t know how much exactly, because you have to have x many hours left in your bucket after the payout still, so it depends entirely on your volume of accrued-but-unused PTO at the time of the payout.

      Reply ↓
  55. Diocletian Blobb*

    How bad of an idea is it to apply for an internal position that I’m somewhat underqualified for, especially if I just got a promotion and a raise a few months ago? My company is doing a big expansion in a field that matches my skill set and there’s a new position that just opened up with about 25% higher pay.

    I have complete faith in my skills to execute this position — I don’t have experience with everything it requires, but I’m a high performer in my current role and it would be a difference in degree, not of kind (ie this isn’t a jump from IC to people manager or anything like that). Basically, it would just be bigger, more ambitious projects for stuff I’m already good at. Do I apply?

    Reply ↓
    1. Parenthesis Guy*

      I wouldn’t say it’s a bad idea, but many places won’t consider you if you were promoted in the last year. But in this case, the worst they can say is no. I wouldn’t think they’d hold it against you.

      Reply ↓
    2. A*

      I think it would be reasonable if they want to see longer term success at your most recent promotion before they give you another one.

      I don’t see harm in applying but I wouldn’t hold your breath on this one.

      Reply ↓
  56. Rinn*

    Has anyone figured out a way to tolerate really terrible treatment during a PIP for the couple of weeks necessary to try to preserve your legal options?

    And does anyone know what level I need to work at these next two weeks in order not to negatively impact a lawsuit should I bring one? I have been working at my “normal pace” which in reality right now is doing twice the normal work I do in the same amount of time. If I reduce my effort will that just tank a case down the road? I just don’t know if I can keep going at this pace and also managing the strain of the check-ins and the extra scrutiny.

    Background:
    I’m (F, GenX) a technician in engineering. I’ve been put on a PIP and the check-ins have been hour-long interrogations. They are wildly out of scope of the PIP document. There’s been 4 of these check-ins in 3 weeks, with two more check-ins to go. For a 30-day PIP.

    The source of the PIP has turned out to be from mainly one person and he’s the guy in charge. It had been initially presented as being from my team lead but this guy, his boss, was clearly behind it all along.

    Yesterday was the worst yet. He has triggers such as if I say one word about any of my coworkers, even things like “my whole team does xyz” he nearly becomes unhinged. He yells “this has nothing to do with anyone else but you!” Even though the engineering design process inherently involves a team of people. Essentially at this point it is clear that he is not trying to solve any problem other than his own need to push me out.

    Obviously this ends with me leaving in some shape or form. But I am angry. And I’m sad because my actual coworkers are decent guys and I feel part of the group. And there’s my age and the shitty job market.

    I am in a sort of limbo. I’m later in my career and at this point a firing on “my record” doesn’t matter as much to me as having an income in some form even if unemployment for now. I have made a complaint to the company legal department and I’m talking to outside lawyers–but man are they busy.

    None of my coworkers seem to know about the PIP much less what is going on behind closed doors, one of those things where it is kind of too awful to believe. I hate thinking about the departure and how humiliating it will be. Even if I quit I will probably be escorted out because that is what they do here. And even if I quit it isn’t like I am going to tell everyone the details. It just looks like failure.

    Reply ↓
    1. Lurker*

      This sounds like a hostile work environment. Have you spoken to an employment attorney? This could be an EEOC violation if you can prove that gender or age are a factor. How does he treat the other people on the team?

      Reply ↓
    2. ILoveLlamas*

      Can you request that HR be present for all check-ins? Since you are on a PIP, that wouldn’t be a stretch. I would ask HR if they would be present rather than asking Crazy Man….

      Reply ↓
    3. WellRed*

      Is there HR? Can you request that they sit in on these pip check ins so maybe he’ll stop screaming at you (or you’ll have a witness). I think you have nothing to lose by saying you feel unsafe.

      Reply ↓
    4. I should really pick a name*

      If you’re seriously considering legal options, I suggest having a consultation with a lawyer.

      They’d have a better idea of what you actually need to tolerate and what actually affects the potential lawsuit.

      Reply ↓
    5. Chauncy Gardener*

      Any PIP should be coordinated with HR. Please see if HR can sit in on your meetings. Also, start getting your personal items out of the office. And I totally agree with consulting an employment attorney.
      Good luck!

      Reply ↓
    6. A Significant Tree*

      HR was my first thought too, they should definitely be included on the future meetings. You already did the right thing with the complaint and talking to outside lawyers, hopefully one will have time and advice for you soon.

      Also this might not apply but are you in a union and/or does your company have an ombuds person? A few people I knew in similar (hostile) situations started to request their union rep be present for every single meeting with their manager. I think an ombuds does the same kind of thing.

      Reply ↓
      1. Rinn*

        HR has been in on the last two meetings. There are two people. One who has been our contact person, “Sarah”, and a new person, “Charles”, who came from a different company in a recent acquisition. They are physically in a different location and so they call in conference style. They have never said a word except one time and it was a sort of referee thing and it was “in favor” of the boss guy.

        Reply ↓
          1. Rinn*

            There was less yelling but still all kinds of manipulation and intimidation tactics. I held my own, calmly and professionally but having no way of knowing how much HR cares that may or may not matter at all. And I’m in an “All parties recording” state so they couldn’t have legally recorded the meeting. I have reason to believe Sarah is very anti-employee. I have no idea about Charles. I’ve never met either one in person.

            Reply ↓
            1. Charlotte Lucas*

              I agree with talking to a lawyer and document everything. It sounds very much like constructive dismissal to me. Possibly fueled by a combination of sexism and ageism.

              Reply ↓
  57. JennyFair*

    I’ve been teaching (chemistry/biochemistry) at the college level for a few years now. I love it, but I’m thinking of switching to middle or high school for several reasons. Has anyone made that switch, that would like to share how it went? Just how bad is it having to deal with parents? Is it as much more work as it feels like it would be?

    Reply ↓
    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      High schoolers are a lot less independent than college level students. You’re going to need to do a lot more spoon feeding and hand holding through material. You’re going to need to go slower through material and assume no one does any external readings to prep for class. You’re going to have to teach to the test if you’re in a state with graduation tests.

      You’re going to face ridiculous administration stuff. You’re going to have behavioral issues was kids go through puberty and what not. You’re going to have parents who think they’re child deserves an A to go to the best college even though they never turned in a single piece of homework.

      Reply ↓
    2. pally*

      I had a boss (Ph.D. in organic chemistry) who changed careers to teach in high school.
      Thing is, he was appalled at the level of cheating/dishonesty that went on. Not to mention the things DisneyChannelThis mentioned.

      He switched to community college and is a whole lot happier with teaching.

      Reply ↓
      1. Forrest Rhodes*

        My first two years of college were at a community college, where several of my profs (many of them PhDs) said they specifically wanted to teach at that level because the students weren’t generally as hormonal as high schoolers, the majority of students were genuinely interested in the subjects being taught, and the profs had to deal with a lower level of parent involvement/harassment than they would find in high schools.

        The profs—who were wonderful teachers—also said they enjoyed the greater direct involvement with students that CC teaching offered; much more than they would find teaching at either high schools or colleges/universities.

        The downside, at least at the time, was that none of them were teaching full-time at my CC—all of them taught at two and sometimes three other CCs in the geographic area—and the pay was not particularly all that great.

        Don’t know if any of this is helpful, but I hope it is!

        (Note: I was a nontraditional—i.e., adult—student at the time, so I think they were more comfortable sharing their opinions with me.)

        Reply ↓
    3. Irish Teacher.*

      I’m in Ireland and haven’t taught at college level but I would say the big difference is that at college level, all you are expected to do for students is teach them and specifically teach them your subject. For high schoolers, or even more, middle schoolers, there is a lot more to the job. You are, to some extent, in loco parentis. Perhaps less so with juniors and seniors in high school but for those younger than that, most certainly.

      You not only have to teach them chemistry but you have to deal with bullying incidents, with discipline, with pastoral care and also with teaching…well, how to be an adult, I guess. Teaching responsibility, study skills, respect for others, how to speak to people, peers and authority figures…are all part of the job.

      You also have responsibility for things like looking out for signs of bullying or abuse or neglect or indications of learning disabilities or mental health issues.

      And I don’t know if this is the same but in Ireland, you might be assigned to teach other things as well as your own subject. Most likely, most of your hours would be in your own subject but it isn’t at all unusual to get a few classes a week of learning support or EAL or civics or Social, Personal and Health Education or religion (though the last wouldn’t be a thing in the US, assuming that is where you are) as those things are often assigned to whoever is available.

      It’s a great job, but I suspect it is very different from lecturing.

      Reply ↓
    4. Irish Teacher.*

      OH! Another difference is that you’ll be dealing with a much wider range of abilities. At college, you are solely teaching people with the ability to get to college and if your subject is not required, you are mainly teaching people for whom your subject is a strength, one they choose to study.

      At middle school or high school, you will probably have some students with intellectual disabilities, ie an IQ below 70. You will have students who are reading on a 6 or 8 year old level. You will have students with no aptitude for science and who plan to drop it as soon as they can. You will have students who are only attending school because the law says they must and who have no intention of doing any work. You may have some students that actually want to be suspended because it means time off. And you may have them in the same class as students with an IQ of 125 or 140 and reading at an adult level and aiming for top grades in order to get into a prestigious college.

      And you will need to differentiate for all of them. As a lecturer, you essentially present the information. At middle or high school level, you need to ensure that the student who has an IQ of 65 and a reading age of 7 can participate and that the student with an IQ of 130 who reading chemistry books for enjoyment is being challenged.

      There are many ways to do this, from different worksheets to giving open-ended assignments where everybody can participate at their own level – I don’t know much about chemistry so I’ll give an example from one of my own subjects, English; I have these cards with pictures on one side, of a king, a knight, a pirate, etc and some questions on the back. I ask students to choose a picture and write a story based on it and tell them that they can use the questions as inspiration if they get stuck. The weakest students will often just answer the questions, to the point that it’s barely a story at all. “He is a king. His crown is made of gold.” The brightest student on the other hand, might write something only vaguely inspired by the picture, like writing a story about a conman who dresses up as a king and pretends to be a king in exile looking for funds to restore his kingdom.

      Reply ↓
    5. Mother of Panthers*

      I taught high school then moved to the college level. Yes, K12 has a horrifying work load of things not directly related to teaching that are complete time sucks.

      Probably the biggest and most impactful difference is in the schedule. I taught each of my college classes two or three times per week. I had space and time to meet and work with students one on one. The 50 minute or so bell schedule in middle and high school is tyrannical and exhausting.

      Reply ↓
  58. Green Goose*

    Does anyone here work in corporate philanthropy/foundation? I want a bit of a gut check. I come from the nonprofit space and have now been on the corporate philanthropy side for over a year. While the pay and work/life balance are better, I’ve found the people in charge are all wealthy friends of higher ups and don’t care about the work and were just given the jobs. I see this at my corporation and the other corporations that we interact with. It’s really disheartening. Have I just been unlucky with where I landed or is this just kind of how it is in corporate philanthropy?

    I was watching Running Point with Kate Hudson and in the first episode her brother who is the CEO just gives her the job of Charity Coordinator and it made me so mad (lol, it’s just a show) but made me consider that it’s just common knowledge that this is what happens with these type of roles?
    Let me know if you work in this space and if you find this to be true/not true. Sigh.

    Reply ↓
    1. Charlotte Lucas*

      I think it depends, my mom worked at the nonprofit branch of a company, and the people there were definitely not wealthy friends of anyone. (For context, it was not an especially large company but a well-established one that had been owned by a family for a few generations.)

      Reply ↓
  59. AnonFed*

    Another Fed debating whether to stay or go. I panic-applied for a job at few weeks ago, but things seem to be stabilizing in my agency and I have heard from a reliable source that my job/office isn’t likely to be targeted in any RIFs (my series is explicitly excluded from eligibility for voluntary resignation incentives).

    I had originally planned to wait it out until summer and make a decision on whether to stay or go. But now I’m a finalist for a job I thought was a stretch.

    A part of me wants to pull myself from consideration. It’s not a good time to leave my team. This new job has a lot less leave and more evening and weekend commitments, and I have little kids. The fact that my first non-Federal job application in over a decade got me this far is easing my fears about whether my skills are marketable. Even if I do eventually get targeted for a RIF, if they follow the regs, I’ll get about 5 months of severance and 8 weeks of leave paid out, so I’ll have some time.

    Another part of me is afraid that come this summer, things will still be bad and I’ll need to start looking. And the market will be flooded with people who were laid off. Or that Musk and Co will find another way to yank my paycheck out from under me with no notice and not follow the RIF regs.

    Reply ↓
    1. *daha**

      Save yourself. Don’t put your trust in people who have broken the Nation’s trust time after time. Accept this job if it is offered, and continue to explore openings that match your 9-5 preferences. This could be your liferaft.

      Reply ↓
    2. Not in govt*

      While I’m not in govt, I would advise at least waiting to see if you get an offer and perhaps if you can negotiate for things that are important to you, such as more leave. If you don’t get an offer or if you get an offer and they won’t meet your terms, well then, there’s your answer.

      Reply ↓
    3. WestsideStory*

      I’d say the best thing to do is continue to apply to other jobs – that way if the one you’re in consideration for doesn’t happen, or if it turns out does not suit your life, you will feel you have other options.

      Honestly I would not wait till summer to start serious job-hunting. The market may well be flooded. And you can’t count on RIF regs being followed when you’re operating in an environment that glories in flouting all rules. You will be doing all your fellow citizens a favor doing the best job you can while you are still there, but if you can find another suitable position, do what is best for you and your family.

      Reply ↓
    4. ILoveLlamas*

      My fingers are crossed for you. I would suggest negotiating on the PTO — I’m always able to get more when I ask, but I’m also in the private sector. Good luck!!

      Reply ↓
    5. A Significant Tree*

      I’m a fed and seriously considering applying for an industry job just in case (a specific job, which doesn’t come up often). I’m also assured that my job code is as safe as any, but that doesn’t seem to be written anywhere and if they use seniority as a blanket RIF criteria, I’m a few years past probationary but still relatively new in an agency where people typically stay for decades. Any one of the people on my team leaving voluntarily or not would really impact the work since we’re so understaffed already, but that is obviously not an agency-level priority.

      I vote for sticking out the process and if an offer happens, see how you feel then. If you turn it down and a few months later things change, it’s possible that door might still be open.

      Reply ↓
    6. Hillary*

      It’s never a good time to leave your team. You have to take care of yourself first. And you also don’t have to say yes if they offer you the job.

      Reply ↓
    7. cubone*

      I don’t have any helpful advice, but I’m genuinely so sorry about everything that happening to you and your colleagues.

      Reply ↓
    8. WellRed*

      Staying for the team is a poor reason to stay in a job. I’m not sure you should take the job offered because nights and weekends with small kids doesnt work for many families.

      Reply ↓
  60. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

    Eek, I stumbled into a freelance opportunity that I could lock in at 25 hours/week with a single client for at least a year. I’ve been thinking about leaving my (very stable, great benefits, very flexible hours but miserable internal politics and an industry that I would love to escape) job for awhile but I have a truly incredible amount of flexibility (I can take 6 hours off in the middle of the day two days a week with work bookending in the mornings and evenings). I did a couple one-off projects for this potential client that went super smoothly and I really enjoyed. This is…tempting.

    And also terrifying! I’m in nonprofitland and just about everyone I know in the field is looking at layoffs or other chaos related to the political moment. The freelance work would cover my expenses (including healthcare) and leave me with enough to save for retirement, and I have a very healthy savings account and 401k, but it would also be an $80k pay cut, with downstream impacts on the quality of health insurance I could afford and the amount going into my retirement savings. I could of course seek more clients but working 25 hours a week sounds so incredible right now.

    I’m mid-30’s, a modest mortgage, no kids, a partner who chips in but makes much less money than me, and a fairly inexpensive overall lifestyle. On paper I can afford this, but throwing away a high income and stability for uncertainty seems risky. I had serious challenges making enough money to live on in my 20’s and don’t want to go back to the struggle. And, trying out this freelance thing is what my heart wants to do.

    Advice, commiseration, anecdotes about your experiences taking the plunge all welcome.

    Reply ↓
    2. The Ginger Ginger*

      My questions is – if you don’t do this, will you always regret it? Wonder if it would have worked? You wouldn’t necessarily have to go back a “regular” job if this 25 hr/week thing doesn’t work. You could try adding another 5-10 hr/week free lance client later if you need a little boost. Free lance should still give you a ton of flexibility.

      Reply ↓
    3. Always Tired*

      Can your partner add you to their insurance? Because leaving the job that provides your coverage counts as a Qualifying Life Event, so you don’t have to wait for open enrollment. It’s just a matter of checking how much the additional person would cost and the coverage.

      I would also suggest taking on smaller shorter projects when you can, to boost your savings. You’ll want something in the pipeline for when this client wraps up, and the best way to do that is going one off projects for potentially bigger clients (in the way you landed this first one) and having a large portfolio to advertise yourself with (I’m drawing from my knowledge of freelance art/design people, but I also know it’s similar with compliance and finance auditors.) But since these are smaller, shorter projects, you can have gaps where you work a lot less some weeks.

      It is a risk, but if it’s one you are willing to take, as long as you have a savings runway (6-12 months) so you aren’t endangering your house, go for it.

      Reply ↓
      1. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

        My partner’s job doesn’t offer insurance, so I’d have to get a marketplace plan – which I would be able to afford. This is really helpful advice though – it seems like a fine balance between overcommitting myself at the beginning and making enough money to feel stable. Thanks for the advice!

        Reply ↓
  61. Being blamed for other’s mistakes*

    My company is requiring us to give more and more to the overseas support team. The problem is that our performance (and annual bonuses) is tied to the overseas support team’s performance, but their work is dreadful. We have no authority over or ability to discipline the overseas team for mistakes. All we can do is send screen shots and discussions of errors to our higher ups, who are supposed to be passing this stuff along to the managers on overseas team. I’m so frustrated. We’re being blamed for not training them well enough, yet we’ve had multiple Teams calls with overseas staff recording the training so they can refer back to. Lots of simplified how tos with many screen shots.

    How do you handle this?

    Reply ↓
    1. Strive to Excel*

      First off – this is a bad system. Tying your performance to someone else’s performance is a shitty thing to do, especially since y’all are not professional trainers or educators and you have no authority to discipline them for mistakes. I don’t have any great solutions, since to really make this stick you should have a trainer who is experienced with teaching things *in that culture* and more actual supervisory authority. But some things you can try:

      * If there are any specific counterparts on your overseas team that you’ve built more of a connection with, or any coworkers on your team who are more familiar with the overseas team, schedule a call and try and get some honest answers on if the trainings are helpful and making sense. Try having them walk through their process on a piece of work – that’s a good way of seeing how someone thinks and approaches a problem. Your goal might be “make this work with their process” rather than “train them to use our process”.

      * Are you getting a bunch of the same error? Or is it new errors each time? If you’re getting repeated errors on something you’ve already trained them on, it’s a good sign that either your training isn’t making sense or they just aren’t following it. Either way, that’s useful data to pass along to your managers. “Boss, we’ve trained them on the appropriate Llama grooming tools 3 times. Here’s the dates. We still get 3 complaints a day of the wrong tools being used.”

      * Make sure everyone is on the same page regarding level of final polish on work. Maybe they’re assuming that they are doing first drafts and you’re doing the final polish. Maybe you’re assuming they have more QA than they do. Maybe it makes sense for you to start doing early QA over their work to head off more errors.

      I’m sorry. This is not a fun situation to be in.

      Reply ↓
  62. Sulcata Turtle*

    Hi, starting my new job on Monday! It’s in academia (IT staff, not faculty). I left a job that had slightly better pay for this one because my previous job was so bad, I tripled my anxiety meds and had heart problems. Now I’m scared to be in this new job! I feel like I should have held out for a better offer. On the other hand, my new boss seems AMAZING and there’s so room to grow. I know I’m taking my mental health over purely money, but I can’t still feeling bad. How can I shift my mindset even a little bit?

    Reply ↓
    1. Hlao-roo*

      See the thread started by “Mature Student soon?”

      Change is scary! It’s pretty normal to be nervous/have cold feet before starting a new job. It also takes time to settle into a new job, so know that it might be a few weeks for the nerves/cold feet to subside.

      For a shifting mindset, how do you feel when you frame it as “I would pay $5,000 (or whatever the difference in salary is) to get solve my anxiety and heart problems.” If that feels better than “I took a $5,000 pay cut” or “I lost $5,000 a year” or whatever internal framing you have right now, keep repeating “I paid $5,000 to solve my health problems” whenever you start to feel bad about the money.

      Reply ↓
      1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

        Yes I agree. I also moved from a job that on paper looked like it was good but was really toxic. And I moved to a state university. I absolutely love it! And although technically it was a pay cut, the benefits were much better, including my health insurance. I have pretty much the same health insurance (including it being a local company). BUT when I started I got just about the same amount take home because the old insurance was so much more expensive.

        One thing that my university started is they have a mentor program for new employees. Maybe yours does too. You’re not going to be the only person whose in your position.

        Reply ↓
    2. Always Tired*

      Look at your benefits package. Especially if you are at a state school, you probably have an amazing benefits package. Did you factor that into your compensation math? Because you may end up with more in your pocket and more towards your retirement at the end of each year, even with slightly less pay. And how do you quantify quality of life as a dollar amount?

      If you sit down and look over your benefits documents, you might be surprised how little you lost. And when you are a few weeks in and don’t make yourself nearly sick with worry Sunday night about the coming week, you’ll see how much you gained.

      Change is hard and scary, especially if you are already a naturally anxious person (I note you said increased your meds, not started them) Give yourself a few weeks “just to test it out” and have a little personal check in next month.

      Reply ↓
  63. ILoveLlamas*

    Happiness doesn’t need to include money. Be healthy. Be excited. Money will follow. Congratulations!

    Reply ↓
  64. Roguelock*

    How do I nicely field questions about my top surgery at work?

    I’m getting top surgery in a month (which I’m super excited about.) I’m out at work as non-binary, but I work in a retirement home in the South so I still get misgendered pretty frequently. (Residents I don’t mind; other staff is another issue for another day.)
    My question is, I’ll be out for six weeks recovering from surgery, but when I come back it’s going to be… noticeable what kind of surgery I had. I’d like to positively assume no one will comment on my body/be weird about it, but given where I work and that we’re in the South, unsolicited comments aren’t totally unexpected.

    Does anyone have a good script for navigating this? I’m worried if I’m vague and say I did it for health reasons, people will assume preventative measures for cancer, which I definitely don’t want. I’m usually okay with being open about being trans, but having to explain what top surgery is doesn’t always feel safe.

    Reply ↓
    1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      I’m not in the south (but grew up in a small rural town so have similar comments) and I’m not trans. But I think you could go with that it was for health and just not answer any questions. Depending on the level of your residents they may be easliy redirected. “Oh I don’t want to talk about why, lets go get a cup of tea and get ready for bingo”. your coworkers are probably going to be more nosey. How do you handle it now? Would you be able to get away with calling them out a bit? Like “why are you so obsessed with my body and my choices? It’s really creepy.”

      Reply ↓
      1. Roguelock*

        Hmm. Not many of them know now except my boss/immediate coworker and they’re both chill. I don’t think I’d be comfortable being quite that direct with calling them out–not quite the culture we have here, unfortunately. I agree some residents might be easier to redirect, but we have a large independent living population I interact with frequently who won’t be as easily redirected.

        Reply ↓
    2. Hlao-roo*

      No personal experience, but I like these two scripts from a past letter (“I don’t want my coworkers to know about my boob job” from May 21, 2012):

      I’d go with “I had a medical procedure, but I’m fine,” and if anyone asks follow-up questions, then say, “I don’t want to get into medical details, but everything is okay.”

      There are also a few scripts in the “I don’t want to tell coworkers about my weight loss surgery” letter from November 29, 2016.

      And I recommend reading the letter and update “Should I admit my nose job to coworkers?” (letter from October 3, 2018 and update from December 31, 2018), because in the update, no one commented on the nose job!

      I’ll link to these letters in a reply to this comment.

      Reply ↓
      1. Hlao-roo*

        https://www.askamanager.org/2012/05/i-dont-want-my-coworker-to-know-about-my-boob-job.html

        https://www.askamanager.org/2016/11/i-dont-want-to-tell-coworkers-about-my-weight-loss-surgery-client-called-me-beloved-and-more.html

        The nose job letter and update are both #2 on their respective posts:

        https://www.askamanager.org/2018/10/my-coworker-is-telling-everyone-he-wants-to-ask-me-out-should-i-admit-i-had-a-nose-job-and-more.html

        https://www.askamanager.org/2018/12/updates-were-supposed-to-be-hugged-to-check-for-fragrances-and-more.html

        I hope your surgery and recovery go well!

        Reply ↓
    3. EMP*

      Can you be Even Vaguer? Instead of blaming health reasons, something like “yep, I decided this made the most sense for me!”, or “Yep, I had surgery!”, with just absolutely no excuse or explanation?

      Reply ↓
      1. Roguelock*

        I don’t know why but just “Yep, I had surgery!” and leaving it at that is making me laugh. I do like that though!

        Reply ↓
    4. Generic Name*

      Do you WANT to talk about your top surgery at work? If you are okay saying what surgery you had, that’s fine, but you don’t owe anyone an explanation about why or what for. If you don’t want to discuss it, you could always reply to questions with, “Why do you ask?” and watch people sputter as they realize they will have to admit they are looking at your chest.

      Reply ↓
    5. RagingADHD*

      In Southern:

      “Oh, aren’t you sweet? Yes, I’m almost healed up from my surgery, thank you so much!”

      And if they pry: “Well, you know, that’s personal. [Massive total subject change, complete non sequitur, the more obviously unrelated the better].”

      Like, if you just change the subject to refocus on work or the patient’s care, that’s just a redirect. If you completely derail to talk about a totally unrelated piece of chitchat, that’s how you say “I am never going to discuss this subject with you” without cutting off the conversation entirely or seeming offended.

      Reply ↓
      1. Always Tired*

        Right? This was where my mind went (Not southern, but both Grandmas were)

        Start with the blindingly cheerful “thank you for noticing this positive change in my life, and for caring about my health!” sort of response, because that is the only reason they should be saying anything. Then redirect to a new and different topic is like tugging on a dog’s leash when it’s distracted. it changes their direction and focus without changing yours.

        “Hey, Mrs. Smith, how are we feeling today?”
        “where did your boobs go?”
        “Oh, you noticed! Yeah, I really needed to get the work done, and it’s healing up nicely! I’m so pleased. Did you sleep well last night? I know the cold makes your arthritis act up.”

        Reply ↓
      2. Mother of Panthers*

        Let me slightly edit for the southern audience:

        “Well you know, that’s personal. Bless your heart for asking.”

        Reply ↓
    6. A Significant Tree*

      FWIW I had a double mastectomy with flat closure (aka no reconstruction) due to cancer a few years ago and to date no one at work has ever asked me about it. I hope that your colleagues at least recognize that asking a coworker about a significant body change might be beyond the bounds of politeness.

      With the residents, I recognize you don’t want people to assume cancer but would you be comfortable framing it as breast reduction surgery? I know it’s not the same thing, but it may be a ‘safer’ option in a conversation where you don’t want to get into details or explanations since it’s been around longer and is associated with reducing discomfort with one’s body. Otherwise I really like the “I had a medical situation but I’m fine now” or similar vague acknowledgment.

      Reply ↓
    7. Manicure Maria*

      I’m also not trans and not from the South but lived there for college. Would you be cool saying something chipper like ‘oh it’s something I’ve been meaning to do for a while and finally got around to it!’ as a polite shut down? We used to do that for my mom when she was having cancer treatment. Some people mean well and some don’t, but your feelings are what matter most in all scenarios.

      Best of luck with the surgery and recovery!

      Reply ↓
  65. HowDoesSheDoItAll?*

    Any advice on dealing with annoying coworkers — particularly those who talk openly above political views and TMI personal issues? It’s making office life miserable for me right now.

    Reply ↓
    1. Hlao-roo*

      These past posts have some good advice about dealing with political discussions at work:

      https://www.askamanager.org/2016/01/how-can-i-ask-my-coworkers-to-stop-talking-about-politics-interview-shoes-when-its-snowy-and-more.html

      https://www.askamanager.org/2019/10/heres-what-to-do-if-your-coworkers-wont-shut-up-about-politics.html

      https://www.askamanager.org/2020/10/how-do-i-draw-the-line-on-political-conversations-at-work.html

      And here are some past posts about coworkers who overshare:

      https://www.askamanager.org/2016/11/my-employee-keeps-over-sharing-personal-medical-details.html

      https://www.askamanager.org/2019/02/my-coworkers-overshare-really-personal-details.html

      https://www.askamanager.org/2022/02/our-new-team-lead-is-horrible-and-keeps-sharing-private-details-about-us.html

      Reply ↓
    2. cubone*

      Are you familiar with the “grey rocking” strategy? Basically just act like a boring, bland grey rock with no emotional responses or opinions.

      Reply ↓
  66. Nonprofit ED*

    Does anyone know of a site like Ask a Manager that is geared towards people in leadership or executive level positions?

    Reply ↓
    1. Chauncy Gardener*

      I don’t know of a site, but there are executive networking groups in most metropolitan areas. For example, The Boston Club is a women’s executive networking group in, you guessed it, Boston.

      Reply ↓
      1. Always Tired*

        My boss is part of a program called Vistage (we call it his CEO support group). It’s leadership coaching, but they have a monthly peer advisory group where they meet with a coach and a bunch of CEOs/execs in similar roles and fields, get special presentations, and can discuss issues in their office and industry trends. But I know that costs money. I think they have some free resources, though.

        Reply ↓
      2. Nonprofit ED*

        Thanks! I am in a couple of in person groups but you don’t get the diverse conversations or topics that you here. Plus the conversation is broader here because everyone is not in the same place.

        Reply ↓
  67. Can't Sit Still*

    I signed up for a free webinar that I thought looked interesting and because it was a taste to see if I wanted to pay for more content.

    First, the introduction scared my cats (they ran from the room all puffed up!) and then there were absurd technical issues from the teacher, so I dropped after 10 minutes. I guess you get what you pay for, but I’m really glad I tried the freebie before I signed up for the paid seminars!

    Seriously, though, they scared my cats! I’ve been WFH for 5 years now and my cats have observed numerous Zoom & Team meetings, all hands livestreams, and various training sessions, some of them pretty loud and over the top obnoxious, and none of them have scared the cats before!

    Anyone else have a meeting or training that scared the household or office pets?

    Reply ↓
    1. Strive to Excel*

      But how? Was it loud or flashy???

      I’ve never had a meeting that scared the household pets, but one time I had a meeting with a partner that ran late and started encroaching on kitty dinnertime. I was WFH that day. Kitty decided she wasn’t amused with this delay and levitated up onto my shoulders to yell in my ear. IDK how either I or the partner kept a straight face.

      Reply ↓
      2. Always Tired*

        oh lord. My buddy loves when I work from home, but he is rather confused by it. His closest context for me being on a teams call is when I am on the phone with my mother, and that is prime petting time. So I get the headphones on and start talking, he comes right up for his snuggles. My coworkers think it’s hilarious. I’ve started pretending to be on the call a few minutes early, so all the head bonking and pacing is over and he’s quietly laying down in my lap off screen for the call.

        Reply ↓
        1. JustaTech*

          I miss my kitty and WFH snuggles. I do not miss the time that both my cat and my coworker’s dog thought our one meeting a week was a good time to throw up (on the carpet, of course).

          Reply ↓
      3. Can't Sit Still*

        It was loud, like screaming loud, with lots and lots of Enthusiasm!!!! and Lots of Capital Letters for EMPHASIS!!!! You know when you can literally hear the capital letters? And exclamation points?!? Like that.

        It was mostly my girl cat that was scared, the boys were more irritated by the noise and left the room. GirlCat hasn’t really heard anyone yelling or screaming since she’s come to live with me, so I guess she was startled? She’s normally the bold one who investigates new people and strange sounds, which was why it was surprising when she puffed up.

        Reply ↓
  68. Zee*

    What do y’all think about a job applicant leaving their major off their résumé and just putting the degree (i.e. “Bachelor of Science”)?

    Context is my undergrad degree is completely unrelated to the work I do now. The reason I’m not working in the field that I majored in is traumatic, and I hate people asking about it at interviews. It forces me to lie, which I am pretty ethically opposed to as a general rule.

    But, I’ve heard a handful of people say that it looks sketchy, like you’re trying to hide something bad. Would it be a red (or yellow) flag for you if you were hiring?

    Reply ↓
    2. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

      Probably depends on the industry and how much work experience you have. In my industry (nonprofit marketing/communications), once you’ve got the 3-5 years professional experience to qualify for jobs above entry level, I’m definitely not looking at college majors as an indicator of qualifications.

      If you’re working on getting your first job in the field and have no relevant internship or other experience, it’s going to be harder to avoid questions about it.

      Reply ↓
        1. mreasy*

          If you’ve been in your field that long I would be surprised if anyone noticed what your major is or whether you included it. I always include that I majored in classics on my resume because it’s never occurred to me that anyone in my entertainment field would ask why I’m not working in Latin translation… but if you have a major that people get “real jobs” in I can see why you’d want to leave it off.

          Reply ↓
          1. Zee*

            Idk but I have gotten asked about it A LOT at interviews. And that’s with having Education as the very last section on my résumé!

            Reply ↓
            1. TerrorCotta*

              Ahhh, I saw what field you’re currently in, and I’m gonna guess the reason you get asked about it is most people in Comms are coming from B.A./Arts/English backgrounds, and not science degrees. So “WOW, how did you get here from that?” is a pretty natural question.

              I definitely don’t think you need to include your major on resumes, but you may still get questions about it and should have a brief response prepared “It just didn’t suit me! And now I’ve been doing this ever since–”

              If it’s really too painful to discuss, you could leave off the degree entirely and only list the University name and years you attended. They’ll either assume you got a more commonly relevant degree, didn’t graduate, or still ask. But hopefully less likely.

              Reply ↓
    3. Pay no attention...*

      Depends on if the major is relevant and essential to the job. A BS in Nursing is probably essential to a job in Nursing but not important for a job as an administrative assistant—so listing just BS would be fine—and a BS in Llama Grooming might disqualify someone from applying for the Nursing job.

      Reply ↓
    4. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      I work in a field where people usually have humanities degrees, though something else would not disqualify them outright. I usually take note of it for candidates in their earlier careers, but I wouldn’t see it as a red flag to have BA only with no distinction.

      Maybe ask yourself this question: Would your rather have it on your resume and answer a basic question about it, like “oh yeah I did that in school but I’ve pivoted, here’s (something relevant from my most recent position or other redirect)” or would you rather not have it at all, knowing that half of interviewers will never bring it up and the other half are likely to ask you outright what you studied, requiring you to name it in the moment? That might help you make up your mind.

      Reply ↓
  69. Grey*

    Not a question, but still work-related.

    If not for the recent post about upside-down flag stamps, I wouldn’t have noticed I was guilty of the same thing. It’s an easy mistake to make with that stamp.

    Reply ↓
    3. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      I agree, especially being the website shows it how the OP says they were putting them on the envelopes. I honestly would never even pay attention to the stamp.

      Reply ↓
    4. Charlotte Lucas*

      I only buy flag stamps when they’re the only decent option. But I am the geek who stands at the counter and looks at all the available stamps.

      I think of stamps as partly a pretty decoration for my mail.

      Reply ↓
  70. cubone*

    TL;DR question: how many questions in a 1hr interview do you think is a reasonable?

    Longer version: I had a 1hr interview with 12 questions and each question had 2-4 sub-questions within it. I ran out of time to get through them all (embarrassing) and I’m really struggling with how much of this was “my” fault for not managing my response time better vs. just an absurd amount of content to get through in an interview?? And how could I prepare better in the future for this kind of interview?

    More details: the hiring panel let me know there would be 13 questions at the start of the interview, so I had a sense of how much time to spend on each question. I was doing okay for the first 2 questions…… but the questions were SO. LONG. They copied them in the chat and each question was 2 paragraphs, with at least 4 sentences per paragraph (including additional questions/topics they asked you to address). I found it really difficult to address every sub-question (which has been the #1 piece of advice I’ve gotten for interviewing with this company!!) and I just… lost track of time. I did adjust as I went on and kept my answers much shorter, but I’m also pretty sure I didn’t address every point/sub-question by doing this.

    The panel was very nice about it, but I don’t think it was a great look. I’m obviously disappointed and a bit defensive, truthfully. I did a TON of prep and knew my best career stories by heart, but I truly felt like I needed 10++ seconds to even comprehend each question before responding (I didn’t take 10 seconds to think, but did take 5 seconds max to orient myself before responding. But I stopped doing that when I realized how slow we were getting through the interview).

    This isn’t really a situation where I want to just write this employer off for poor interview practices. It’s a huge employer that I think I’d be a good fit for (lots of info interviews have confirmed my interest!), and it’s well-known they are very competitive and it may take quite a few applications to get a foot in the door. So, in an ideal world, I hope I get another shot (for another position, since I assume I lost this chance). This just seems to be their interview style for a lot of reasons (competitiveness, unionized, etc.), and I really, really want to work there. But I genuinely don’t know how I could’ve mitigated this, or prepared better.

    Thoughts/advice?

    Reply ↓
    1. C in Mass*

      I would have had a hard time focusing if I knew there 13 questions because I would have kept wondering, “OMG WHICH QUESTION IS JUDAS”

      Reply ↓
    2. C in Mass*

      … but on a more serious note, I used to help run interviews at a couple previous jobs, and I think I would likely have broken things down differently than your interviewer did. For example, I’d have posed the broader questions, and then used follow-up subquestions to tease things out as needed if responses to the main questions required more clarification.

      I’ve also never been in a situation where I’ve typed interview questions into a chat while doing a video interview, though I could definitely see doing that as part of a requested accommodation. (In which case, I think it would be unfair to judge an applicant for needing longer to answer.)

      Reply ↓
      1. cubone*

        So… I DID ask for the questions to be typed into the chat as an accommodation (info processing disorder & hearing issues), but I also knew that this company does that for all interviews.*

        However: holy moly, if they had not done this I would’ve been absolutely screwed. There’s just no way I would’ve been able to absorb the questions verbally and been confident I grasped all parts without asking for them to repeat it at least once.

        I think the “ask simple question, then tease the sub questions” isn’t their approach because of rigid union rules most likely (that was the case at my last job in the same industry; there were very strict rules on asking follow-up questions because it was perceived as potentially unfair to other candidates).

        *FWIW, the last 3 interviews I’ve had (all different companies) have pasted the written questions in the chat and I would strongly encourage everyone to do it without candidates need to request it. It’s just a good practice for inclusive interviewing.

        Reply ↓
    3. Zee*

      Did they give you the full list of questions? Perhaps you could send them a follow-up email briefly addressing the ones you didn’t get to answer in the interview.

      Reply ↓
      1. cubone*

        No, they said they’d “reach out if there was any additional info needed” but they didn’t, so… either they got enough from the answers I did give to assess my fit (or knew they weren’t going to move forward with me anyways).

        (For the record, we got through 10/13)

        Reply ↓
    4. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

      For a 1-hour interview I can usually get through like, 6 questions max (allowing for follow-up questions and genuine discussion plus time for the candidate’s questions). If you got through 10 I doubt you were being overly long-winded or anything.

      But I’ve also seen this happen in environments with very rigid hiring practices or with relatively inexperienced interviewers, and not getting through all the questions is unlikely to penalize you. Whoever is watching the clock on their end is likely aware when you’re running out of time and they can prioritize the most important questions. Their HR might not be thrilled if they knew, but the hiring manager probably isn’t going to tell them.

      Reply ↓
      1. cubone*

        thank you, that makes me feel better, haha <3 Yeah, they did adjust when it was clear that we only had time for 1 more and skipped the next question to jump to another one… I hope it didn't penalize me, but for some reason, I just got a slightly "unimpressed" vibe from one interviewer. No outright rudeness so maybe I'm overthinking it. I'm soooo curious if other candidates got through all 13, lol.

        Reply ↓
    5. spcepickle*

      For an hour interview I do 10 questions max and normally it is like 8 questions. And I learned as an interviewer to stop doing multipart questions, they are bad for everyone. Also when I run an interview I will give you several heads up if their time to answer ratio is off. I have even cut people off who rambled to remind them that we have a limited amount of time, just to make sure we can get to all the questions. You had a bad interview panel.

      I would not be surprised in this case if the panel finds that nobody can get through all their questions in an hour. This may mean they chose not to score the last few questions, or it might mean they call people back for another interview with better questions. But from you story there is nothing you could have done differently and keeping your chin up and continuing to apply for positions with them is a great path forward.

      Reply ↓
  71. Cat*

    College scholarship question…
    My son has been accepted into a private university and is in the final rounds of a competitive scholarship. The scholarship is given to a number of kids, and there are varying monetary awards. I am almost positive he will get something because he is required to spend a day at the university and observe a panel discussion, etc. I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t do that and give no money at all since kids have to travel (although of course, that is a possibility). The scholarship award ranges from a fairly small amount to a huge amount.

    We are trying to decide if it makes sense to commit to the college before the scholarship is awarded or wait until after it is awarded. If he commits first, we might get more money because they definitely know he is coming and there is only a certain amount total. They may be less likely to give a big award to a kid who may not even go there. On the other hand, they may want to award him a bigger amount as an incentive to go to the school. Agh! We really don’t know what to do. Any ideas?

    At this point, he is almost for sure going to go to the school regardless of the scholarship. However, it is more than we have budgeted and would mean more loans. For a variety of reasons, it still makes the most financial sense, so whether or not he gets the award will not impact the decision. Of course we would like to get the amount down as much as possible though.

    Reply ↓
    1. Pay no attention...*

      That seems like an arbitrary way to award scholarship funds. Do you know the criteria for the different amounts? When my university awards recruitment scholarships the amount is based on things like financial need or skill/knowledge that the prospective student has that puts them ahead of other candidates — e.g. athletic ability or GPA or they play the bassoon and we really need a bassoonist. The student’s level of desire to attend is not usually a determining factor for the amount because hypothetically the school could offer the top dollar and the student still might pick another school …it doesn’t make sense to offer less or more based on likelihood of accepting … in that event, they would just either offer the money to someone else or redistribute it to the other candidates.

      Reply ↓
      1. Cat*

        No, it doesn’t say what the criteria is. It’s possible that they just divided equally amongst everyone and they don’t say the dollar amount because it depends on their particular pot from donors and how many kids get the scholarship that year. I do think they might consider financial need though. It doesn’t state that, but it’s possible. He already got an academic scholarship, so perhaps they would give more money to someone who didn’t get the academic scholarship? This particular scholarship is more of a leadership scholarship.

        Reply ↓
        1. Elitist Semicolon*

          Like Pay no attention… said above, scholarships, etc. are frequently determined by need, so it’s really unlikely that the financial aid office (or whatever unit administers this particular scholarship) would just divide the amount of money evenly among all eligible students. Scholarships for which everyone gets the same amount will be marked as such – like, say, The AAM Award for Future Non-Shitty Bosses awards $500 to students who demonstrate common sense.

          (Also, yay bassoonists! Represent.)

          Reply ↓
    2. Generic Name*

      Scholarships are typically an incentive to get the student to attend the school. Unless it’s an early decision scenario, I don’t see that there is any upside to committing now instead of waiting to see what is offered.

      Reply ↓
    3. Not A Manager*

      Is it possible to signal your high interest to the school? If he’s being recruited/if anyone is reaching out to him, I think it’s worth saying “YourSchool is my absolute first choice and I’d love to be able to commit now, but realistically I need to wait to be sure it’s financially feasible for me.”

      Reply ↓
      1. Cat*

        Yes, we are absolutely signaling our interest. A lot of this is our first choice, but we are stuck because it is not financially feasible for us. Also, reaching out with specific questions about clubs, etc. these are all actual questions he has but just making sure that we get that out there. Sounds like we are best waiting to commit. Thanks everyone!

        Reply ↓
  72. Leery*

    I’m struggling with something at work lately and trying to suss out how much of it is reasonable, how much I need to reframe my thinking. I acknowledge some of it may be reasonable but it would still be a good idea to reframe my thinking…anyway.

    I am a medium senior person in my role. One of several. Say you can be a MyJob1-3, and then there are MyJobManagers, MyJobDirector. I am a MyJob3. I am also objectively an SME in our field, not just at my specific role.

    I am finding resentment building because other MyJob3s have nowhere near the subject matter expertise I do. I don’t expect them to be as expert as I am, but I do expect them to know more than they did right when they were hired. They’ve been here multiple years at this point, but don’t seem to have retained things they should’ve learned since being hired. As a result there are A LOT of tasks that could go to anyone on the team, but if we end up in a time crunch, the boss will ask me to jump in and help out by taking those tasks – because they acknowledge there’s no way the others could take it on in a reasonable amount of time. So I get pulled off my higher level projects, and which I was explicitly told should be my top priority, to basically backfill other people’s lack of expertise.

    Separately from that, I’m faster than everyone else, and the quality doesn’t suffer for it. This comes from all the higher ups and my teammates (at various levels), it’s not just my opinion. Right now, on a 10 person team, I am doing 35% of the work, just from my natural velocity. That’s without accounting for the “but so-and-so won’t be able to take on X” in the previous paragraph.

    We also have a very open process where there’s no judgement when folks need help and ask for it. I do love this aspect of our culture. And I do love answering questions and helping people. However, at a certain point it becomes so one-directional, it also gets frustrating. I need help too sometimes! I ask for it! But the pool of people able to give me a hand is significantly smaller than the pool of people asking me for help on a regular basis. Maybe that just comes with the territory? But again, compared to people at my same level and in my same role, things skew very disproportionately toward me. With my boss’s blessing I tried to hang back and not jump in to help right away when I can, and see if others would step up. (He’d also told some specific people they need to step up). It didn’t make a dent.

    Is my headspace all wrong? I keep thinking, well I’m seniorish so maybe that just comes with the territory. But then what about all the other seniorish folks and why does management seem ok with lower expectations for them? In a way I feel like I need to stop comparing myself to others…but again, part of the issue is if others were doing more, I’d probably be less stressed. Me doing less won’t make me less stressed. Do I just need a vacation?

    Reply ↓
    1. Balanceofthemis*

      This would drive me nuts, especially if it’s the same people needing assistance with the same things over and over. It comes off as them not trying to learn or improve because they know someone else will handle it. And yes, management is feeding into this by having you jump in to save them. I would say yea, take a vacation, because it can’t hurt.

      As for the rest of it, try and ignore them. Don’t jump in unless specifically asked to. It’s hard, I have been in your shoes. I would ask, is management really holding them
      To a lower standard, or are you just that much more advanced than your peers? If it’s the second, then maybe you should be looking to move up.

      Reply ↓
      1. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

        Especially when someone DMs or emails rather than coming over to you physically, try training yourself to employ the five minute rule. Wait five minutes before answering to see if they can resolve it themselves. Often, people do! If not, they probably do need your help which is nice to know.

        I find this so. very. hard. myself. But it works well. Even those who aren’t intentionally abusing your goodwill may be in the habit of asking you since you always have the answer. But also, Google exists and memos have been sent and protocols are in the shared drive. Let them sweat a little. Hell, give them 10 minutes instead of 5.

        It won’t solve your overall problem but I bet it makes you feel like you’re not just accepting a bad lot. And it probably will help, at least a little.

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    2. Generic Name*

      A vacation probably be a good thing. But it sounds like you should have a promotion and a raise. Is being an SME part of your role or the ones above? I am a Senior Manager MyJob at my company, and that role is designed to be an SME and it’s part of my job to answer questions from junior staff. They can definitely ask amongst themselves, but most of them recognize that if there’s a particularly tricky question, they’ll go to me or others at my level. So I would go back to your boss and mention it’s been X weeks/months and no one else has stepped up to answer SME type questions. Also ask what would be needed for a promotion and ask how raises work at your company. That will hopefully start a dialogue with your boss that you want to be promoted/recognized for your higher level contribution.

      Reply ↓
    3. cmdrspacebabe*

      I have totally been in this position before lol.

      I’m not sure there’s much to be done by YOU, specifically – if it’s your boss putting you on things in a time crunch, that’s a little higher-level. It sounds like you’ve already talked to your boss about the pattern. Is there any room to be more specific and ask for an actual action from management – i.e., better training/resources for your coworkers? Something like, “You know how we talked about me always getting pulled into Task A and B when I should be working on F? It’s still happening a lot. Could the rest of the team do some remedial training on these to get them up to a similar speed?” Maybe they haven’t quite made the connection that “If OP is the only one we turn to, everyone else is never going to get better at it”. (Maybe your boss also needs to get better at pushing back on expectations, but that’s beyond your control too.)

      The other common advice would be to make sure there are easy templates/processes/instructions in place for all those tasks and then drill them into your colleagues’ heads every single time they ask for help, but that depends on the task and whether you have the time to put that stuff together.

      Also, yes, you probably should take a vacation! Both to relax a bit from the frustration, and perhaps to show them what they’re risking by relying on you so much. If you take a long vacation and do a thorough hand-off process for it, it might help highlight the problem areas where your coworkers aren’t doing their share (and if you come back to a mess, it’ll be an easy opening to say “this is not working and it will damage this organization if we don’t fix it).

      Reply ↓
    4. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      I don’t think this is all in your head. What you describe sounds like it sucks. Have you tried having a conversation with you boss about this? I think you would be right to go to them and offer to train the others to do these tasks, or set up an SOP that they can follow. If they are slower than so be it. That should fall on the bosses for not having people trained properly and not relying on you.
      Also, what would happen if you said no? Could you say “I have X project that I’ve been told needs to be priority. If I keep getting pulled to do these tasks I cannot finish. The other team members should be able to complete it.”
      Heck how are they going to learn and become faster if they don’t have the opportunity. Have you talked with them? Maybe all of you as a group could go together to the boss. I bet there’s at least one person who would like to do the task but isn’t given the opportunity because boss wants it done fast.

      Reply ↓
    5. Angstrom*

      As the others have said, your management needs to do the work to get the rest of your team up to speed. They may just be responding to low expectations, and at least some of them would like to do more with the right training and encouragement.
      Would you like to do that if it was an official role and not an added burden? Would you want to have your role be more “responsible for seeing that the work is done” as opposed to “doing the work”?

      Reply ↓
  73. LL*

    Looking for advice for an upcoming panel interview for a management position at a non-profit. I don’t have any experience interviewing with a panel! Panel will be representatives from partners of the non-profit, and one current employee.

    Reply ↓
    1. Zee*

      I’m shocked you’ve made it to manager-level without ever having a panel interview. I feel like every interview I do is with a panel!

      Logistically, the only difference is it’ll be multiple people taking turns asking questions instead of one person asking questions.

      They can feel intimidating just because of the 5 against 1 (or however many) feeling and having multiple people stare at you and judge you. I don’t really have any advice about how to handle that; just giving you a heads-up.

      Reply ↓
    2. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      I’ve been the interviewee and the interviewer on panel interviews.
      It’s pretty much like any other interview. The only difference is that it will be multiple people. This can actually be in your benefit. For one it’s not just one person, so if someone doesn’t like you there are others on the panel. You also can get different perspectives when you ask questions.
      One tip is, when you are answering questions look at the person who asked you the question. Don’t just look at whoever seems to be the boss or head person.
      If you can, ask questions to each of the interviewers. For example, you could ask the current employee what their experience with X is.

      Reply ↓
    3. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      My suggestion is to bring a pad of paper and leave the top open for you to write down everyone’s name in physical order — especially if you need to keep track of which partner agency the people are from. It’s a good way to look organized, to try to solicit their business cards, and to remember what happened later.

      Reply ↓
    4. spcepickle*

      Echoing everyone else here – we interview with panels of 3 or 4 – It should be a benefit to you. We purposefully try to build our panels to be diverse in different ways to try and overcome any unconscious bias. It also allows people at a few different levels to hear from you with only one interview. We do rotate through who asks the questions, but that is really the only difference with a one on one interview. I would pay attention to how the panel interacts with each other, the times I have done a panel interview and the panel seemed to like each other and kind of joked with each other were times I liked the culture at work. When everyone is stone face or if they have no diversity in the panel or when the panel is kind of snarky to each other those are all red flags about the culture to me.

      Reply ↓
  74. Ex-fed*

    Hi all I’m a retired government employee but still working part-time as a consultant back to the agency I used to work for. I formed my own LLC to do this. In my government job, I often worked with colleagues from other countries. Now I’ve been invited by one of them who is also retired from his agency to co-author a paper for an upcoming conference. Since neither of us currently work for the government were pretty much writing this paper on our own and struggling with how to : a) list our job titles on the paper (do we say “retired from (government agency)” or just “llama consultant, llamas-r-us LLC” ? B) usually papers for this conference were run through export Control by our government agencies, but since we don’t have that channel anymore, is there a company that reviews papers for export approval?

    Reply ↓
    2. Elitist Semicolon*

      For A), list the second – “llama consultant, llamas-r-us LLC.” You’re not currently affiliated with your former agency, so don’t list it. For B), I am not entirely sure, but I think export control only applies to current employees of government agencies. I don’t have a ton of experience in that area, though.

      Reply ↓
      1. Spreadsheet Queen*

        Export Control applies to EVERYONE! There is simply certain information (or products) that would be considered Export Controlled (and some even under ITAR, which you do NOT want to mess up!) But yes, there is such thing as Export Compliance Consultants, and you should talk to one. Also, any information that you know and want to use that is related to your performance as a Government employee or contractor may still have to go through that Agency’s public release approval channels.

        Reply ↓
  75. Overthinking This*

    Is it overkill to give cards and maybe treats on my last day at my nonprofit internship? It’s a very warm, tight-knit, family-like environment (in a healthy way) and we’re all very committed to the mission. Most of us are also members of the community we serve. I’m planning to give cards to the ~7 people in team I’m on, and also maybe the reception manager who always helps me with a ton admin stuff and the person who I share a desk with. Nothing crazy, just some store-bought cards to thank everyone for the knowledge they’ve shared with me and professional things I’ve learned from being in the field with them for the past six months. Also planning to maybe bring in cookies or some other snack (in accordance with dietary restrictions) if I have time. Is this too much? Will people be offended or feel snubbed if I don’t give them cards?

    Reply ↓
    1. cmdrspacebabe*

      I don’t think it would be ‘too much’, but you could probably dial back from store-bought cards to just written notes or letters, especially if you can thank people for specific things they’ve done to help you. I highly doubt they’d be expecting you to spend money on them if you’re an intern! And you wouldn’t need to go beyond your immediate team/people you’ve worked with closely.

      Reply ↓
    2. RagingADHD*

      I think that’s nice. I think you should make sure to include everyone that you work with regularly / closely, but people you only know in passing aren’t likely to feel left out that they didn’t get a card.

      Of course, you want to give them quietly or leave them on desks, rather than make a big production of it.

      Reply ↓
    3. Zee*

      It’s fine to do the cards, and it’s also fine not to. (If you don’t, you should at least send a thank-you email – one email to the whole team is fine.) Same with baked goods – no one will feel snubbed if you don’t, but you also don’t have to worry about it being inappropriate to do. Whenever I’ve had interns, we supplied treats for their last day – but who would complain about having too many cookies?

      Reply ↓
    5. cubone*

      I still have cards that some colleagues and bosses gave me when they left! I agree with other folks that what’s more important is the handwritten note with something meaningful you appreciated about them. Doesn’t have to be intense or lengthy – “you made me feel so welcomed on my first day!” or “I was always so impressed with how you handled challenges, and I appreciated learning from you” is great.

      Other tip for the cards: if possible, try to find a 1:1 moment to give it to them (or leave it on their desk). This’ll minimize the risk of any offense or snub. But most people understand those gestures are usually reserved for the people in your immediate work-circle (I did once actually have an intern give every person in our 50+ office a handwritten card thanking them, and while it was seen as thoughtful, I don’t think the cards were particularly meaningful to anyone who hadn’t worked with the intern!)

      Reply ↓
    6. spcepickle*

      I have a small pile of cards that interns have left me at the end of their internships. It is always nice to get a thank you note and I do often keep them. It sounds like you got a really good intro to what a healthy work place can look like and letting them know that is wonderful.
      I would say that you only need to give cards to people for whom you can write a personal thank you with an example. Leaving them on their desks or giving them to them one-on-one would be perfect. No need to be like school valentines and make sure that everyone gets one.
      Snacks are fun but not needed, if it feels right do it, if it feels at all challenging skip it.

      Reply ↓
  76. mac and cheese*

    Federal science contractor here anticipating imminent career loss, will need to apply far outside my wheelhouse due to the obliteration of my sector (private sector is small and heavily dependent on federal funds that are vaporizing). I have a ~10 page CV and a 2 page resume – for most positions I can figure out which one is more appropriate but there are some edge cases where I’m not really sure. I put a link to my google scholar in the resume publications section along with a handful of citations. I am thinking of also adding a link to an online copy of my full cv somewhere as well at least for edge cases – is this a bad idea?

    Reply ↓
    1. cubone*

      Linking to your CV (or Linkedin) is a good approach, but I would also suggest doing some networking at the companies/industries you’re targeting and ask this question.

      My personal opinion is CV only for government & academic roles, but I’m not in the US so it’s possible the standards are different!

      Reply ↓
    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I think that will work. But can you also just summarize it, so people don’t have to look in two places? “Lead author on 23 papers, including 5 in the Journal of Teapotology and 3 in International Topics in Teapots” (whatever the most impressive journals in your field are).

      And really think hard about whether stuff you published way back at the start of your career is relevant to non-academic employers.

      Also highlight stuff in the main resume that non-academics might not realize go along with scientific publications as a matter of course – things like referee/review/edit, organizing conferences, convening and leading specialty subgroups, etc. You don’t need to list them all, just let the employers know that you can do more than just labwork and writing.

      Reply ↓
      1. Time Zone Confusion*

        Yeah, in my field I’d say publications would look weird on a resume, but the skills are certainly widely transferable to many things we do care about.

        Reply ↓
      2. mac and cheese*

        I am considering targeting technical/science writing as one of my options, in which case I think it would be good to list at least a few recent publications? Google scholar just tends to make a hot mess of things vs a nicely organized cv. If the position is totally unrelated, I’d ditch that section entirely.

        Reply ↓
  77. Stuck*

    I hate my workplace. The managers and big boss yell and micromanage us to the point where it’s abusive, yet they are doing far worse things. I’m trying to get out, but it’s been tough even getting an interview. Until I can find something and leave, how do I not let things get to me?

    Reply ↓
    1. cubone*

      I think there’s some good advice if you search through the Ask a Manager archives, but something that worked for me in a similar situation was thinking of these people as pre-verbal toddlers. Like, you know you can tell a toddler not to throw their food on the floor… and 5 minutes later, they’ll be throwing their food on the floor again. We understand that they don’t have the developmental capacity yet for certain behaviors and emotional regulation.

      Your managers/big boss SHOULD have that developmental capacity, but for whatever reason, they don’t. So, when they keep doing horrible, crappy things, try to train your brain to think: “there goes the toddler, throwing food on the floor again.” It’s just what’s happening and no amount of stress on your end will change it. It just.. is. They’re not capable of appropriate adult behaviour and no one is holding them to it, but you’re not their parent, so pretend you’re in a restaurant and think: “wow, that toddler sure is upset…. that sucks for whoever is in charge of them, but I’m going to keep eating spaghetti.”

      Reply ↓
    2. SofiaDeo*

      Pretend that going to work is a theatre play, and everyone is an actor. You are there for your role, the other roles are people being mean/trying to upset you. Their role is to be the Bad Boss/Bad Manager.

      So you try not to take anything personally, it’s Bad Boss playing Bad Boss, and has nothing to do with you. You are the example of cool & calm in the chaos. Don’t get sucked in to listening to others complain, then extensively responding, it’s harder to avoid emotions if you/coworker are re-hashing the outrageous injustices being done. “How awful” or “I know” type comments lets you commiserate a bit without inviting more complaints.

      Know that the role is a seasonal play, not a hit Broadway show running indefinitely. It’s a temporary gig you just need to get through,

      Reply ↓
    3. Stuck*

      Thank you- this is extremely helpful. I’m at my wits’ end this week, but I will have to reframe things and think about these things.

      Reply ↓
      1. cubone*

        I also posted this in response to another commenter’s question, but I found the book Burnout by Emily & Amelia Nagoski generally helpful for understanding how to deal with ongoing stressors & the resulting stress (different things, it turns out)!

        Reply ↓
  78. Life Resets At 65*

    Are medical offices requiring more identification now? I just got a text from my dentist’s office asking me to click on a link to fill out new paperwork and wants a copy of my drivers license. I’ve been a patient there for almost 40 years, and I pay cash to get a discount, so I don’t see why a drivers license is necessary.
    It seems like a scam, except that with the way things are going, it might be real. I left a message at the office and I’m waiting for them to call me back.

    Reply ↓
    1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      The only time I’ve had to give my ID was when I was hospitalized out of town. They needed it to verify my identity to send the bill since I was not in their system. I don’t know why you’d need it for a dentist, especially since you pay cash, they can just require payment up front.

      as always wait to see what your dentist says.

      Reply ↓
    2. ashie*

      I’m pretty sure I’ve given my driver’s license to every doctor I’ve ever been to. Lots of offices use the type of system you’re describing. But if you’re skeptical of the link you can always just do it in person when you arrive for your appointment.

      Reply ↓
      1. DiorMouse*

        Yes, I’ve had to provide my license at every medical/dental appointment I’ve ever had as an adult.

        Reply ↓
    3. My Brain is Exploding*

      I think a lot of medical practices are scanning in an official photo ID due to medical identity theft.

      Reply ↓
      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Partly that, but also, the frequency with which people call up and try to claim “I wasn’t there that day, you’re charging me for someone else’s visit” (even when their ID is recorded, they signed the treatment paperwork, and they were brought into the ED for medical clearance by the police who verified their identity with both their drivers license and the VIN of the vehicle they crashed into a parked car while driving drunk) is patently absurd. If your ID is recorded, it protects both sides.

        (I once told someone that if the patient wasn’t actually in our hospital that day they should contact our HIPAA office to file an identity theft report, but they also probably want to contact the police department that brought them in because whoever stole their identity seems to have had a really busy night and the ED bill might be the least of their worries.)

        Reply ↓
    4. RagingADHD*

      I have had to show my license for years and years – maybe 10 years+ – whenever I’ve registered as a new patient, and at any doctor’s office I go to infrequently enough that the staff doesn’t 100 percent know me on sight – so, I have to show it at an urgent care or the GYN but not at my primary care because the receptionist knows me well.

      Your doctor’s office is probably modernizing their system.

      Reply ↓
    5. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

      I would decline to provide it through an online portal if you aren’t confident of the security, but it’s pretty standard for them to want a copy. I would offer it in person at the visit instead.

      Reply ↓
      1. Percy Weasley*

        Yes to this. I’m willing to provide anything they need in person but not online thru a 3rd party vendor. My healthcare system has been using this type of program for the past couple of years. I’ve ignored all of the pre-appointment requests for info and not one of my providers has ever commented on it.

        Reply ↓
  79. Tired Social Worker*

    I’m wondering if anyone has any suggestions fo an alternative to The Question that Alison recommends asking? “Looking back on others who have held this role, what separated the good from the great?”

    I have 2 second round interviews next week and they are both for positions that are new, so there is no precedent for the interviewers to cite!

    I’m typically pretty good at asking thoughtful questions. But if anyone has recommendations for insightful questions I should ask, I’m all ears!

    Reply ↓
    1. cubone*

      Another version of this I’ve done is: “What do you think would distinguish someone who is “good” at this role, vs. someone who is “exceptional” at it?”

      It’s usually gotten very “hmmmm” thoughtful responses, and then they usually share 1-2 things that are clearly their biggest priorities. You could also do a “what are the most important things that the person in this role will need to accomplish in the first [3 months/year/etc]?”

      Reply ↓
    2. Bike Walk Bake Books*

      “A year from now the person you chose for this position has become an indispensable member of the team and they’ve added value as they helped define this new role. You know you made the right choice. What did they do or accomplish that will make you feel this way?” (Kind of funny verb tense here, but it’s asking to think ahead about what they’re hoping or expecting out of a new position.)

      Reply ↓
  80. TomfoolofaTook*

    Sad rant here. My daughter works with a small group in a large national organization. They are not Federal but receive Federal grants, many of which will not be forthcoming. Last week the group was told that many would be fired in the coming weeks without warning or severance. Today they were summoned to a meeting in which they were told that the organization had fired 300 employees in another location, and that local laws had required them to give 60 days notice, but that they were NOT required to do so at my daughter’s location. They did not announce any firings there. They said they appreciated the team’s dedication, told them to take the rest of the day off because it had been a stressful week, and said that they hoped the employees would find “food for their souls.” I suggested burning the management in effigy. You can bet that my daughter brought all her possessions home with her tonight. I know that this kind of thing is happening everywhere, but this seems unusually clueless and cruel. Rumor is that they like to fire people in person, and her next in-person day is Thursday. Meanwhile she has sick days remaining, but there will literally be no one in the office to perform her duties, which do involve helping people who truly need help … but still. I don’t really have a question, mostly ARGGH, but is this particularly bad?

    Reply ↓
    1. Pickles*

      It’s called lay offs and not firings.
      It is what an organization does when you don’t have the money to pay staff.
      There is no playbook for what is happening. Hopefully she can collect unemployment

      Reply ↓
    2. Alex*

      There’s no really great way to lay off a lot of people. Is it better to tell people it is coming, or just rip off the bandaid? I guess neither is good. It really sucks either way, and I’m sorry your daughter is going through it. The company probably is having the rug pulled out from under them, so I’d be more inclined to blame this administration rather than the company.

      Reply ↓
  81. Manicure Maria*

    I’m seeing advice recently to only include ‘relevant’ jobs on your resume. How does this work in practice? Do you leave large gaps in the timeline or put a line in for each of the less relevant jobs, eg. 2016-2018 Llama Manicurist, while having chunkier listings for the relevant jobs? Or do you group all the ‘irrelevant’ ones at the end? Or is this terrible resume advice?

    For context I have around 20 years of a work history, six years at my most recent role and that role is the most relevant to openings I’m applying to now.

    Reply ↓
    1. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      I would say it really depends what your overall resume looks like. If you had a mid-life career switch, a break for child-care/medical reasons, or there’s that one weird job you did for a couple of years it makes sense to set the less relevant chunk aside in a separate part of the resume (and probably with way less information than in the relevant section).

      In your case, I would try to break down the 2018-2025 (or “current”) role into smaller roles to show some kind of growth, to the extent you can. Even if your title never changed, I would bet you took on bigger projects, trained newer staff or something similar. So basically go hard on the relevant experience to make it the part the hiring manager spends most of her time looking at.

      If there’s a gap or big change in what you did from before six years ago, I would consider breaking out into an “Other work experience” section. You don’t have to label it as relevant and not-relevant if you want, more like “here’s the good stuff, oh and there’s some other things you also might want to know too in this second section.”

      If you had one or two similar jobs, then it might make sense to have “Llama work experience” with your most recent job and one from 2013-2014 and “Other experience” with everything else.

      Breaking it up can definitely work, I’d rather review a resume like that than one where the person just threw everything in and I’m left wondering if they have the critical thinking skills for the role since they included their high school lifeguard job and summer tree planting for a writing-based office job. Just make sure you mention it in the cover letter somehow. “A recent pivot to specialize in llamas” or “After a brief break when my children were small, I moved away from cat toy manufacturing into llama care, where I’ve spent the past six years doing XYZ.”

      There should be lots of good advice on AAM about how to get that into a cover letter.

      Reply ↓
    2. Zee*

      I switched to titling my work section “Related Experience” (instead of “Work Experience”) and completely leaving off unrelated positions a while back. It’s rare that I get asked about the gaps at interviews. I am a mid-30s female, so some may just assume they were from having kids. I also don’t put my graduation dates down, so they could assume the gaps are when I was in school. Or they don’t really think about it because people are bad at math. Orrr people care less these days. I can’t say if I have been skipped over for interviews because of the gaps, but my application:interview ratio is pretty high so I don’t think it’s been that much of a factor.

      But yes, two other options are:
      1. Having a “Related Experience” section and an “Other Work Experience” section
      2. Putting everything on there, but for the unrelated ones just having a brief, one-bullet-point overview of what you did, and devote more space to the relevant jobs.

      Reply ↓
  82. Turingtested*

    I recently applied for a job where my current job wasn’t relevant but it’s the last 6 years of my employment. I put a lot of thought into it and found a few relevant things though they aren’t the main part of my current job. The previous job had a lot more bullet points.

    I did get an interview though I didn’t get the job fwiw.

    Reply ↓
  83. BellStell*

    After four months on a new team internal to my org (been here five years), things were going ok. Until Monday. One of the bullies from my previous team has now been moved to my current team. HR and a VP moved me to this team in part because of this situation. That same VP sat in a 30 min meeting of our teams on Monday announcing this crap.

    How can I stay professional with this situation? My firm does not fire people including bullies or missing stairs. Sadly.

    Reply ↓
  84. jsv*

    Looking for some feedback here–is it really egregious to not have a Linkedin profile when job searching? I have been asked for Linkedin URL on multiple applications and I always leave it blank. I could easily set up a profile, but I hate the idea that people would be able to Google my name and see a picture of my face and where I work. I’ve deleted my Facebook and Instagram as well because I don’t want to have any sort of web presence. But now I’m hearing that employers consider it a “red flag” when candidates don’t have a Linkedin. Is this killing my job chances?

    Reply ↓
    1. Mid*

      Depends largely on your industry and seniority. If you’re in comms or PR or marketing or recruiting or anything that typically has a lot of networking, it could be a point against you. But you’d also likely know if your industry was like that. I doubt it’s a meaningful negative on your application. My retail side job had a line in their application to list your LinkedIn, it was just part of the default template. I wouldn’t think too much about it.

      Reply ↓
  85. Le le lemon*

    In the past week, my org laid off a bunch of people and pivoted operational direction massively. It’s clear we’ve burned through a bunch of cash, and there’s not a lot of cash flow. The ops change will stop the financial bleed, and correct it. I’ve realised my job’s prime functions have now become redundant in this change, so I’m job hunting. I expect there will be more layoffs in the future.

    What’s really frustrating is that there seems to have been no detail thought through from top level. New ops plan hasn’t been signed, finalised, or communicated. Managers have no answers, and we’re all working it out amongst ourselves who is now covering what, and what extra work there is. And New Plan is meant to go into effect quite quickly.

    Anyone else been through a change plan where it just seems there was very little planning?

    Reply ↓
    1. Mid*

      Yup. Been working through massive org changes that seem poorly planned at best, and seem to have no one steering the ship. Lots of instruction to just do your best/make your best guess, no actual policy changes being made while the output is massively changing. Lots of changes being partially communicated to some groups, but not others, so no one seems to have the whole picture ever. It’s….exhausting.

      Reply ↓
      1. Le lemon lemon*

        Oooh, that’s so reassuring to hear someone else say that they have been through this. I agree; it’s going to be exhausting. My org is at least being true to itself. I oscillate between overwhelmed and “I can do this!” daily.

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  86. new jobbeee*

    I expect a job offer next week to be able to leave a job I hate.

    But….

    Our full retirement match vesting doesn’t kick in until I’ve been there 2 years. Leaving early will mean leaving $7,000 on the table.
    And
    My colleagues are taking vacation at the end of april, and can’t if I leave.
    And
    I work in a small industry and if screw over my employer it may come back to bite me.

    is it crazy to stay til the end of april and have zero transition time? Or should i just give two weeks, eat the $7K and let my work figure out what to do about how to move forward?
    Should I extend my leave until the end of April?

    Reply ↓
    1. Rick Tq*

      How is your mental state now, and how will it be if you do stay until your colleagues’ vacations are done? You don’t have to take time off between jobs if you don’t want to, and $7,000 is a lot of money to walk away from.

      Can you tell yourself “I can do this job another 6 weeks to get an extra $7,000” and not be totally miserable the whole time?

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    2. Bike Walk Bake Books*

      Can you think of it as being paid an extra $1000+ per week? That feels like it’s worth it. That is, I’m assuming staying until the end of April gets you fully vested. If you care enough about your colleagues to consider staying on so they can take some vacation, that feels like something you don’t hate about the job. Put together “they’ll appreciate this and think well of me, maybe be a good reference in future” and “woohoo, $7K!” and that might offset the hatey part.

      Reply ↓
      1. Bike Walk Bake Books*

        Oh, also–if you’re going to stay and not take time off between jobs, when they make the offer see if you can negotiate to be able to take leave before a full year has gone by in which to accumulate the leave balance. You’ll want to be there and fully engaged for some amount of time before being off.

        This could be a bit tricky if you’re also taking longer to start than they’d hoped for so you’ll have to figure out what you can ask for based on your negotiating position.

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  87. Persistent Fed*

    I’m a DC fed who is in an agency that will undergo big RIFs soon and has generally been targeted (love how that does not narrow it!). I have been trying to soldier through. There was an Executive Order a few days ago making things worse. And my agency leadership is completely AWOL. But I have fight. I will pull every lever I can find, because I came here to serve my country and thrive doing it.

    I’ve coordinated events for us to do social support & recognize colleagues on their way out. I am celebrating early retirements (the circumstances are bad but these individuals work and legacies are exemplars). I’ve brought in food. I’ve written awards nominations. I’ve done a lot of introductions among people seeking jobs, compiling and sharing resources, sharing postings with people. So much listening to fear and uncertainty.

    And I’m also calling my reps most days, holding sessions on how to get involved, and have worked to get out the vote for almost ten campaigns this year.

    I am not exactly sure why I am sharing – maybe because other feds and contractors and DC folks are on here… but I will keep on keeping on, because the thing to do right now, but I am signing off for a big glass of wine now.

    Reply ↓
  88. Question*

    For those in the emergency communications field , how much should calltakers and dispatchers know about the emergency services in general

    We have a few whose favorite answer to field unit questions is “Unknown that’s what the computer told us to do”. With no understanding of why those decisions were being made or how to recognize if there was a mistake?

    It seems to be speed race through ProQA (scripted questions) choose a call type that’s kind of sort of maybe correct and let the field units sort it out.

    Reply ↓

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