open thread – January 16, 2015

by Alison Green on January 16, 2015

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

{ 1,370 comments }

{ 1,370 comments… read them below }

  1. Museum Educator*

    Hi, I’ve posted before and gotten great responses. I need some resume advice and I’m hoping for some feedback. I have made a lot of improvements on how it’s written, which I think has helped. But I am still struggling with how long it is.

    Most of my career has been in contract or temporary positions, and a few part time permanent positions that I ultimately left because they were part time. In the last 10 years I have worked for about 9 different employers some short term and some for 1 to 1 1/2 years. Plus a few gaps in employment due to lack of work and also staying home for a while after my daughter was born.

    I’ve noted on my resume that my jobs were contract or temporary so that I don’t immediately look like a job hopper. But I have done A LOT of different things and I’m having trouble narrowing down my resume. It’s really cramped. It just barely fits on 2 pages with size 11 font and narrow margins. I really think this is hurting me rather than helping me.

    The thing is that even though my roles have varied, they are still related in some way. For example, I’ve worked in 5 different museum’s education departments, 1 graduate school in a training capacity, and for an educational non-profit as their newsletter coordinator. I have also done corporate admin work (more recently), which fills in a long job gap and a lot of jobs I apply for have a heavy administration component. And am currently a contract technical trainer.

    Teaching, training, and education go pretty hand in hand and I need my museum background to support my training career that I want to move forward with. I want to show that I have a long history of facilitating learning experiences, but if I eliminate my older positions how do I do that? I hesitate to leave out the admin work for the reasons mentioned above. Plus, a lot of the positions I apply for want someone to wear a lot of these same hats. So even though it’s an education type role, they also want someone who can do a lot of the other things I have done as well (admin, marketing, advanced computer skills, etc). This is especially true when I find a museum position, which I do still look for, but they are tough to get.

    How do I fix this? Should I only list my most significant roles? Should I not go back as far? Can I just list job titles without bullet points of what I did there? Basically, how do I indicate that I have experience with all the little requirements in the job descriptions, without going totally overboard on my resume?

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      This might be a time when something other than a chronological format would be better. My dad was a minister for about 30 years and did so much more than preaching. Administration. Teaching. All sorts of stuff. It’s very hard to convey those things from a chrono resume to a secular job. So, a functional resume worked better to display his skills and experiences. Now he’s a hospice chaplain. YMMV.

      1. Museum Educator*

        Interesting. I did try a functional resume before, which got no results, but I don’t get many results the other way either. I liked it a lot better but then I read all the negative things about it and decided to go back to chronological.

      2. fposte*

        I’ll demur here, because I hate functional resumes. I want to know an applicant’s job history. I read applications to understand a job history, and it doesn’t make me happy to have to reorganize the jigsaw pieces into the order I’m looking for.

        1. Museum Educator*

          I once did my resume kind of half chronological half functional. Like most relevant work at the top and in chronological order, then a second section of other relevant work, also in chronological order. But Im not sure whether that’s a good idea or a bad idea.

          1. The Cosmic Avenger*

            That’s kind of what I was going to suggest. A functional resume, but with a very condensed work history section, one line per position.

            1. Museum Educator*

              I don’t know how to do one line per section for some of the positions. In some roles I had a lot of responsibilities: head of education department, director of summer camp, education department graphic designer, museum branding, program development, tour guide, docent and volunteer coordinator, community evens, school programs, etc. all for one job.

              Is this kind of thing enough for such a big role:

              “Coordinated all logistics of education department, by developing enriching programs and events, building docent and volunteer skills, and increasing school and community partnerships though outreach programs delivered to thousands of children.”

              1. Brian_A*

                I would suggest cutting down on the “points per job” to highlight past experience that is most relevant to the job you are applying for. For example, if you were applying to a job where graphic design is a core responsibility, in your example above, I would focus on the education department graphic designer, museum branding experience, and not worry about providing detail on volunteer coordination. Or summarize the less relevant in one bullet: “Responsibilities also included volunteer coordination, program development, and special events.”

                1. Museum Educator*

                  Yeah, I just have to get ok with leaving stuff out. I forget that employers don’t expect it to have everything in it.

            2. Vicki*

              Mine is like this now.
              The “accomplishments and responsibilities” section has some of the companies marked, unless it’s multiple companies. If I did a normal chronological resume it would have a lot of repetition.

              My resume may not be what everyone wants the format to be, but I figure that just weeds out managers with whom I’d have trouble working.

        2. TotesMaGoats*

          I agree that if the hiring manager doesn’t like the functional format then it’s a problem but I can’t think of any other way to do it.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Depends on exactly what you’re envisioning, but probably not. I need to see where and when the accomplishments you’re listing happened — they can’t be all grouped together and not clearly connected to a particular job with particular dates. That said, PurpleMonkeyDishwasher’s suggestion below could definitely work.

    2. Lo*

      Personally, I would advise you try to focus your resume for each position you apply for. Example: you apply for a job that focuses on X and Y, in setting Z. You have experience with X and Y in setting Z, having engaged in them in specific jobs. Therefore, you could list those positions in “relevant experience, ” at the top of your resume, and then put “other experience” as a header for the second portion of your resume. There may be other ways to do this–such as bolding font, or something.

      Also, though I cannot remember Alison’s thoughts on this at the moment–I have seen people successfully use “summary” or “profile” (think that was the term I saw on a resume on here previously) at the top of their resume. You could better define yourself up front, highlighting what is key of your experience for a given job. This allows you to focus in on what they are looking for and highlight your talents and varied experience

      Also, search the archives for resume help, especially in terms of the example resumes Alison has put up. They’re amazingly helpful! Especially in showing how to highlight successes and outcomes, rather than just duties.

      Good luck!

      1. Museum Educator*

        Thanks. If I can actually narrow it down to specific things they are focusing on, then I will narrow down my resume that way. But a lot of the time they want 10 different things, all of which I have experience in.

        I guess what I struggle with is that since my positions have been short term, I want to show that I have more than 6 months or 1 year of experience with something, but I can’t do that without listing multiple roles.

        1. fposte*

          The other problem here is that while we talk in terms of duration of experience, that’s a proxy for growth. That’s why 6 months at 4 places isn’t usually equivalent to 2 years’ experience at one. So think about ways to frame your growth in the skills these positions needed, and not just put them in to get the math up.

          1. Museum Educator*

            Ok. thats a good point. And I agree with you. I don’t consider the positions equal to the number of years I work. I’ve been doing it for 10 years but I don’t apply for jobs that require 10 years of experience. I usually look for things that range between 3-5 years experience.

            The position titles do indicate some growth on their own and each job has had increasing responsibility. For example, at first I’m an intern doing basic museum education stuff and my most recent role at a museum was running the education department myself.

            1. PurpleMonkeyDishwasher*

              What about doing something that has the look of a chronological resume, but grouping jobs by title/function rather than by employer? Something like as follows:

              Museum Educator, YEAR to YEAR
              Museum A, Contract Position, DATES
              Museum B, Temporary Position, DATES

              Training Coordinator, YEAR to YEAR
              Graduate School, Position, DATES
              Other Workplace, Position DATES
              Etc.

              That way you’ll be able to consolidate duplicative job functions and streamline things, while still having a resume that looks enough like a chronological resume to get past an initial screen.

              1. Museum Educator*

                Is it too much like a functional resume though? I’d like to do it like that actually, because I think it would be clear, but I’m worried it won’t be received well.

                1. ProductiveDyslexic*

                  I keep a master CV of everything I’ve ever done in chronological order, and do a cutting and pasting job for a given application.

                  I have two work listing sections, both with entries in chronological order: one labelled, for example, “Teapot Research Experience” and the other “Other Experience”. Entries in “Teapot Research Experience” were fleshed out with bullet point achievements and key skills as listed in the job ad, while entries in “Other Experience” weren’t, in order to save space.

                  Interviewers have commented that they liked what I’d done to highly my relevant experience clearly.

                2. Museum Educator*

                  Yes! This is what I have done (sort of described it above), but I stopped doing it because I wasn’t sure about it. Perhaps I will try that again.

                3. PurpleMonkeyDishwasher*

                  I think the key is to keep it as chronological as possible, so it’s clear you’re not trying to hide an employment gap.

                4. Museum Educator*

                  My most relevant experience was about 3 years ago now and I would put that pretty much right at the top of my resume, after my current position which won’t require a whole lot of space. I hope that will be enough to show I’m not hiding an employment gap. The job I did between these two would go under the other section.

                5. Lizzie*

                  My resume is set up similar to what ProductiveDyslexic suggests, and so far it’s worked well for me.

    3. fposte*

      Can you group them so that they don’t have to take up as many lines? List the contract work as one heading and then describe the particulars of what and where in a single-job space underneath it, that kind of thing? I think you’re right that you’re currently overcrowding and it’s not helping you; you’re not talking just about trimming the length down but shaping your narrative more clearly.

      1. Museum Educator*

        I’m not sure that would work because my contract or temp positions have all been through individual employers. Its not like I was placed in the positions. I just applied for jobs that happened to be temporary.

        In that case, how would I do that? Something like:

        Museum Work
        – Name of org 1, title, dates
        – – primary function
        – Name of org 2, title, dates
        – – primary function
        – Name of org 3, title, dates
        – – primary function

        Would that be ok? Does it matter if it ends up not being chronological? I thought employers thought you had something to hide when you do that.

        1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

          I think it would be fine to use a header of “Museum Work (Temporary Contracts)” or something like that – what you want to do is put a frame around the idea that you have a lot of experience through intentionally short-term roles, and make it clear that you weren’t job-hopping or losing jobs but rather choosing short-term gigs on purpose.

          1. Museum Educator*

            I’ve said something in my cover letter about all my roles being temporary and that I am looking for the right opportunity to settle in and make a meaningful contribution. But I haven’t specifically said the limited terms were on purpose. Some were and some weren’t. Some I took to gain experience and were specifically short term so that many people could get the same benefit. Others I took because I needed a job and nothing permanent was coming along.

        2. fposte*

          I would consider summarizing even more. (My theoretical might not work with your actual experience, but hopefully it’ll give you ideas.)

          Contract museum work, 2008-2010:
          Educational specialist, educational technician, educational freakout artist for the Museum of Teapots, the Other Museum of Teapots, the Ripoff Museum of Teapots, and Teapot Tourist Trap
          Developed programs in spoutwork and lickage, set new metrics for the tasing of children, fostered community relations in outreach events for 20-500 people, provided sole support for special events from flyer generation and social media presence through coordination to cleanup and increased attendance by 2000%

          And so on. I’ve used the museum contract stuff because you mentioned it specifically, but it may not be the best candidate because it’s most relevant to what you’re searching for now; other stuff may compress more appropriately. But you’re getting stuck on the one-hire/one line thing, and I don’t think it has to go that way.

          1. Museum Educator*

            I understand what you are saying. That’s a great example. Does it matter that maybe I didn’t do everything listed in every position? Am I being misleading if I summarize like that and a major responsibility I had was only at one of the jobs?

            1. fposte*

              I don’t think so. It’s not like academic footnoting where I need to be able to retrace the exact steps of the journey you took. You don’t want to squish your juiciest stuff into this kind of smaller space, obviously, but it’s a way to say “Hey, I did a bunch of things that were relevant in this area/time too, and here’s how that looked” without eating up page space that you’re needing to cut down on.

          2. Mander*

            I have a similar situation with my resume. I’m trying to come up with something I can give to a temp agency that shows I have generic admin type experience as well as my more specialist experience. Between finishing my BA and deciding to go back for an MA I worked for a few years in various admin roles, mostly temporary. This experience is very old now but it’s all I have that documents that I have worked in a normal office, which is why I have left it in.* I did a couple of other short stints in a similar environment later on, too.

            If I summarize them as you’ve suggested, is it ok to leave off the individual dates of every temp assignment (they were generally about 3 months each) and just say something like:

            Customer service and administrative work, 1998 – 2001.
            Medical records clerk, ambulance billing clerk, and customer service representative for Big Insurance Company, Famous Specialist Hospital, Huge Hospital Corporation, and other regional companies. Answered 10 billion calls per day, collated updated policy information to share with others in the department, consistently finished my daily data entry tasks early and helped with other stuff to kill time.

            Temporary personal assistant, Feb – Apr 2006.
            Regional health authority IT office. Reorganized the manager’s mess of a filing system and created a system so that she could find things when my temp contract was over.

            *Or is this not really necessary and including stuff from 1998 – 2001 is just making me look crazy out of touch?

            1. Museum Educator*

              Hmmm, I’m not sure I would include either of those. I’m no resume expert (as evidenced by this thread) but I don’t think you should go more than 10 years into the past. Your 2006 experience is lees than 10 years ago but it was for only 2 months so I don’t think it’s that relevant. Not many employers are going to be persuaded to interview / hire you because of 2 months of admin work you did 9 years ago, or for 3 years of admin work you did 14 years ago for that matter.

              What have you been doing since then? I see below you say your an archaeologist (cool, by the way!). Have you done anything in your roles that could constitute admin experience? A lot of my positions weren’t necessarily admin specifically but I did a lot of administrative work myself because I didn’t have an admin I could go to and in small orgs you often do a lot of different things.

              If you can’t do that then I’d either list them under your skills and abilities section on your resume, indicating what level you are at. For example, “Microsoft Office – Advanced”, “Record Keeping: Intermediate”, or whatever you would list. Alternatively, you might also put something in your cover letter that explains you have the admin skills needed, either from other work or from using these in your personal life as a way to grow your skills.

              1. Mander*

                I did first an MA in the States, while doing seasonal contract fieldwork as a summer job (and working as the university museum curator’s assistant during the semester — best job ever!). Then I moved to the UK for my PhD, but it did not go smoothly. It took me almost twice as long as is normal for here and by the end I was certain that I had no chance of an academic job.

                I’m not really sure where I want to go from here but after spending the better part of a decade analyzing qualitative data and writing about it, it seems that admin stuff is the most suitable for a stop gap job while I try to figure out what to do next. I fell into the trap of over-developing my academic knowledge without really gaining technical expertise. So I’m way over qualified in some respects but little better than entry level in others.

    4. GOG11*

      I don’t have good advice to contribute, but I am eagerly reading the comments so far and am excited to follow this thread/discussion. I’m in a somewhat similar boat (same brand, different year and model :P)

      I’m young (and I look even younger) but I graduated college early and have worked 2-3 jobs at a time most of my short career. The jobs I’d normally look to cut to free up real estate (freelance work for example) usually get really good responses.

      I was going to suggest tailoring your resume on a case-by-case basis, but it seems like you’ve already tried that and are still stuck with too much. Good luck to you!

    5. Museum Educator*

      Could I narrow down the positions to the most relevant experience and then just list the other things I have experience in under a skills / abilities category? As an example, lets say it’s a training coordinator position where 50 % of the role is face to face training, 30% is developing training courses, and the other 20% is miscellaneous tasks like designing training materials, doing administrative work, or being able to do graphic design. In that case I could bullet my experience with facilitating learning, and developing courses, then just list the rest under skills and abilities?

    6. Zillah*

      I’m not a resume expert, so others may chime in saying that all of these are terrible, but here are some suggestions:

      1) Have a master resume template. That can be 3-4 (or more!) pages long. Include bullets for everything that might be relevant for things that you’re applying for. Then, for each application, you can take bullets or even entire jobs out, depending on their relevance.

      2) Consider either breaking your jobs into “Relevant Experience” and “Other Experience” (potentially sorting the jobs differently depending on the posting), giving minimal/no bullets to the latter, or list them all under one category and just don’t include any bullets to the jobs that aren’t as relevant.

      3) Use your cover letter to mention skills/accomplishments that you think could be helpful but aren’t immediately applicable.

      4) Don’t look at your resume as an exhaustive list of everything that could possibly be applicable – use it to emphasize the things you think are most likely to be applicable and the roles that you’ve been particularly effective in. If they could probably figure out whether you have a certain skillset from the job title, don’t include bullets.

      2. Museum Educator*

        I get hung up on #4. I think it is exhaustive and I’m having a hard time leaving work that is only slightly relevant off of it.

        Also having trouble with my cover letter, but that is for another post. :)

        1. fposte*

          Speaking as somebody reading it, “exhaustive” = “exhausting.” You don’t want to exhaust people reading your resume.

          1. Museum Educator*

            Oh! That’s a good mental note for me to make. I’m going to ask myself that from now on before I send it out. “Is this exhausting to read?” If so, cut it down.

      3. Jennifer*

        Perfect, Zillah, that’s what I do. Make sure there’s a list of “jobs and when” and otherwise group things.

    7. Green IT*

      Can you do a chrono/ functional resume?
      I had that a few years ago…a lot of good experience with a lot of good positions that made me look like i was job hopping.
      So I focused on my skills and then broke down on how i applied the skills to the different positions…and tried very hard not to repeat the them if at all possible

      1. Museum Educator*

        That’s a good idea. I hadn’t thought about not repeating things. I always feel like it will then look like I only have 1 1/2 years experience facilitating programs, when really I have done it in almost every role.

        1. Meg Murry*

          That’s what your cover letter is for – spelling out the connections that aren’t obvious when reading your resume. So if you’ve been facilitating programs for 5 years over the range of these experiences, spell it out in the cover letter, and just use your resume as the document to back that up.

          I think in a position like yours, a cover letter that specifically addresses “these are the qualifications the job description is asking for and here’s how I meet them” is most important. I’ve seen people do this successfully both with bulleted lists (for lots of 1 line requirements) and with short paragraphs addressing the key qualifications.

          I’d work on a one-size-fits most resume (with tiny tweaks for each application) and spend most of your effort customizing the cover letter

      1. Museum Educator*

        That seems to be the overall opinion. I am going to give that a shot and try to seriously reduce the amount on my resume and only keep the absolute most relevant bullet points.

    9. Nina*

      I need help answering the “Why did you leave your previous job?” interview question when I was fired and am looking into legal action against pregnancy discrimination. Should I stick with a super vague “The culture wasn’t the right fit and now I’m looking for XYZ”? I feel like I need to say something about it in case they call my previous employer and hear that I was fired.

      3. NJ Anon*

        This is tough. I had a hard time too. I didn’t want to tell the complete truth but enough that it was genuine. I would just say it wasn’t a good fit but then you will need to say why if they ask.

    10. Lizabeth*

      I’m coming at it from the design/formatting side (graphic designer) rather than content:
      1. You can get away with 10 pt type over a leading of 12 – perfectly readable.
      2. Don’t double space between bullets. Instead, use a secondary leading of 16-18 pts if your program allows you.
      3. Put some kerning in – this is the space between characters of a word. Use anything between 10-20 if your program allows you.
      4. OR condense the font SLIGHTLY. I’m talking about maybe 95-98%. This doesn’t read as condensed.

      Of course, this depends on whatever features are available in program you’re formatting your resume with.

      2. Museum Educator*

        I have actually done all of these tricks! It accomplishes the goal of getting everything into 2 pages, but I’m a little worried about it seeming like WAY TOO MUCH to read.

        1. spocklady*

          That’s a good point, Lizabeth. Just in case you haven’t considered it, I found it made a HUGE difference in overall clarity when I switched from Times New Roman to something sans-serif (like Helvetica or Arial). Even with the exact same amount of text, it’s much easier on the eye.

    11. Lauren*

      I have no advice but I have been meaning to ask the same question and am frustrated because my work schedule never permits me to log into Ask a Manager on Friday mornings, after which time my question would be buried. So thank you so much for asking!

      (I’m in the library field which I think has some similarities in that it leads to short-term, only semi-related contract positions. You have to take what you can get for a long time, and a lot of the soft skills picked up along the way are valued, if only you can find a way to highlight them in a resume!)

      1. Museum Educator*

        Well, I’m glad my question was one that can help out a few other people. And I feel your pain. It’s totally a take what you can get field for a long time. It’s tough and sometimes I really regret getting into this, even though it was a passion for me.

    12. Another Museum Person*

      It sounds like you’re trying to get out of the museum world, so I don’t know how helpful this will be. As someone else in it – I know exactly what you mean. Museum people are by nature jacks of all trades, and then end up with a lot of specific specialties. The ways I’ve handled this, which has so far been successful is to highlight the continuity at the top of my resume in the summary section. (i.e. 7 years of experience training volunteers on teapot making, 5 years of managerial experience, etc.) Picking up on what the ad seems to be emphasizing. Then I give a smaller summary below each job, and the older they are/less relevant, the less bullet points they get – maybe only one or two, versus more recent/important roles. I’ve managed to keep it to about 1.5 pages this way. In the museum field though, I’ve never met anyone who didn’t have at least a 2 page resume, unless they were very early newbies. Its difficult to transition out to shorter resumes when that’s been your norm, so I can feel your pain!

      1. Museum Educator*

        Thanks. This is an excellent way to go about it. I need to do this. I appreciate that you are sharing your experience in the museum world. Sometimes I feel like the only one with a resume like this. I get really discouraged.

        I would actually love, love, love to stay in museums. But I just haven’t been able to get a job in one for 3 years. I have had 5-6 interviews for Assistant Curator of Education or Assistant Director positions, that I obviously did not get. I seem to get interest when I apply for the bigger roles and hear absolutely nothing when I apply for smaller roles. I feel caught in a bad spot because I don’t have quite enough experience for one of those positions, but I have too much for the others.

        A lot of that though has to do with my location. There are almost no museums here. There are a bunch of small museums within an hour from me, but these are places with a staff of 3 and no turn over. The two that are closest I have worked / interviewed at already. So I have been moving into training in self-preservation. I need work so I need a back up plan. But I do still apply to museums when I see a position that I think would be good for me. I’d actually like to do training in museums, but the museum world hasn’t really gone in that direction yet.

        1. Hanukkah Balls*

          Don’t count that out entirely — in my city most of the bigger museums (staffs of 200+) have at least one person, and sometimes more, dedicated to staff training. Those jobs are there, but probably only at big institutions in major cities.

          1. Museum Educator*

            Have you ever read Museum Education Monitor? The last issue specifically dealt with training in museums. I definitely haven’t counted it out. But I also have not seen any job postings for it ever.

        2. Another Museum Person*

          You may have too much experience for the smaller roles? I had the same problem with not hearing back from 1-3 year experience roles, and got really discouraged thinking that I was never going to find a job. Then, just for the heck of it at the time, I started shooting for much larger roles and either landing them or being in the top 2 for consideration (I also credit this blog with helping me). Unless you’re in some of the museum heavy cities where they require MAs/PhD’s even out of their part time assistant educators (don’t get me started on education requirements vs. pay in this field!), it seems you can quickly become overqualified for positions without realizing it, once your account for all that cobbled together experience. I also really feel like there’s a lot of nepotism in the museum world, and a lot of jobs are posted when they already know who they are going to hire. I have lived in big cities and smaller ones and it is infinitely harder in smaller cities. I don’t have a lot of advice there – but I totally sympathize. I have been doing the same thing where I am trying to find other work, so at some point I can consider transitioning out.

          1. Museum Educator*

            ” (don’t get me started on education requirements vs. pay in this field!) ”

            I know, right!! It’s infuriating.

            I have some graduate level courses in Museum Education under my belt. I went to grad school for it but didn’t finish the program. I never know whether to include it on my resume or not. But you are right, in smaller cities I can find jobs that only require a Bachelors, but rarely in larger cities. Then in smaller cities it’s harder to find jobs in general, while in larger cities they are everywhere.

        3. Mander*

          I can relate — I’m an archaeologist, which tends to mean lots of short-term contract jobs, usually all over the place. A lot of people end up leaving the profession because they get sick of the constant travelling.

          1. Museum Educator*

            My friends husband was an archaeologist when she met him. He left the field for both of those reasons. That’s tough.

    13. Stargazer*

      What if you nix the bullet points altogether and post a summary under each job title? That way you’re not taking up an entire line of space for a bullet point that may only be a few words long.

      1. Museum Educator*

        I have actually though about doing that as well. I have seen some linked profiles like that which gave me the idea. But the general consensus has been that I shouldn’t treat my resume the same. My question for something like this is, how do I list accomplishments when I only have a sentence for an entire role?

    14. Museum Educator*

      Maybe I am just over thinking the whole thing. I feel like I need to bullet point my accomplishments, which sometimes takes up several lines, and that if I leave something out they will wonder what I did there. But maybe I just need to calm down and not worry so much. I probably look like I’m over compensating.

    15. Museum Educator*

      Thanks for all of your responses! As usual this community proves extraordinarily helpful. I think I am going to try the “split resume” approach (at least that’s what I’ve decided to call it) where I summarize at the top, then list very relevant experience right after in chronological order, and with only the information that I must get across, followed by a final “other experience” section with no bullets. Hopefully that will be a lot more succinct and be easier to read and absorb for employers.

  2. CuriosityKilledTheAnon*

    Do people have recommendations or thoughts on job in non-profit settings? I’ve occasionally heard people advising against it because they’re difficult to find and not financially stable (being non-profit with minimal budgeting).

    1. Ash (the other one)*

      Depends on the non-profit. There are some really good ones out there and some really crappy ones out there. Some which pay at market rates and some that pay dismally low. It all depends. I am at my second nonprofit which is run much better than my old one… so hard to generalize.

    2. BRR*

      I don’t think they’re necessarily difficult to find. It depends on the organization. Your best bet to check out the financial stability of the organization is to go to a site called guidestar (you might have to register but it’s free), and search the organization. Go to the forms tab of the organization and look at the 990, it breaks down revenue, expenses, and debt. This information should all be on the first and sometimes second pages.

      1. yup*

        Thank you for mentioning guidestar. I have forwarded this to my friend who is looking for non-profit work up in seattle!

    3. Museum Educator*

      I’ve worked in non-profits most of my career. They are not all unstable. It really depends on the organization, it’s size, and how well they run their development department. I worked at one non-profit where my job was always in danger of disappearing if we didn’t make enough money one quarter (and ultimately that did happen). But I have also worked for non-profits that were extremely stable and well organized and I was not at all worried that funding would suddenly dry up.

      I suggest doing some research on the organizations you are interested in. Check out Guidestar.org to get information and check out social media to see what they are doing. Usually when an org gets a grant they publicize it in some way. I have also seen positions listed that specifically say where it is funded from which can help put you at ease.

    4. Anoners*

      It really depends on the NFP. I work for one and I would say it’s probably the most stable workplace I’ve ever been at. Good pay, bonuses, awesome benefits, nice parties, good culture. Mind you, we don’t depend on donations/donors in any way, there’s no real fear of running out of money.

      Just do your due diligence and see if it’s something that you’re comfortable with.

    5. Sunflower*

      IMO, nonprofits aren’t that much different than for-profits. There are a lot of for-profits that are not financially stable. This conversation came up earlier this week but small non-profits can be seen as a little nuts because many operate like small businesses which get away with crazier stuff than large companies. My advice is research the company and go from there. Don’t turn down a non-profit job just because it’s non-profit.

    6. HigherEd Admin*

      Agree with the others that it really depends. The bulk of my career, prior to getting into higher education, was in non-profits, but on the association side of things. A lot of ease of entry into the field depends on where you live, too. I was based in DC, which is very non-profit-centric, so jobs were abundant. Our work didn’t rely on grant funding, but instead relied on membership dues, which were a little more predictable and stable.

    7. INTP*

      My experience as an employee and a shadower (when thinking of going into a different field) was that I just never felt like I fit in. I am business- and money- minded and just always felt like I had to pretend to have other motivations. Not just for my own work, but when talking about business operations in general, from an efficiency standpoint. I consider myself socially conscious and never though I would find my niche in the for-profit world but that’s how it worked out.

      But that is a totally personal thing. It’s not a reason to avoid nonprofits unless you’re the same way.

    8. Chai Latte*

      I never really understood the divide on here about non-profits. I have never feared any instability, but all the non-profits I have worked for were large and most of the funding came from government grants. I would look to see where their revenue sources are from and their reputation/longevity.

      1. Joey*

        When I worked at a library a federal grant that funded a number of positions and had been stable for over 20 years simply was eliminated one year. So Id say with all of the changes in the economy grant funding ismy indicative of anything in terms of stability.

      2. Joey*

        When I worked at a library a federal grant that funded a number of positions and had been stable for over 20 years simply was eliminated one year. So Id say with all of the changes in the economy grant funding isnt indicative of anything in terms of stability.

    9. Lily in NYC*

      Like everyone else wrote, it really depends on the NFP. I work for a very stable (quasi-governmental) NFP and we have fantastic benefits and some of us make great salaries (it depends on your role/when you were hired). However, I will admit it is very difficult to get hired here. We get so many resumes for our open positions.

      1. Ali*

        This is timely for me, as I’m interviewing at a nonprofit next week. This looks to be one of the more stable ones, as it’s been around a while and has a strong year lined up. I’m looking forward to seeing what it’s like on the inside!

    10. Ask a Manager* Post author

      It’s pretty much like asking for people opinions of for-profit settings: There’s massive variation and you can’t even begin to paint them all with the same brush. There are good ones, bad ones, and okay ones — just like with jobs in other sectors. There’s nothing magical about nonprofits that makes them all the same. It’s a huge sector.

      As with any job, do your due diligence about the organization. Don’t lump it into a huge category like nonprofit or for-profit; that will just mislead you.

      1. Joey*

        But you can use some broad brushstrokes for nonprofits, no. I’m thinking things like you generally have to believe in the cause regardless of how good you are at your job, you will frequently be solicited to donate, and don’t be surprised if pay is on the lower end of the market.

        Obviously ymmv and there are exceptions, but Ive lived in a few very large metro areas and have a number of friends who’ve worked in non profits and these things generally hold.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          I still disagree! I’ve actually never worked anywhere where I was solicited to donate (and have worked in nonprofits my whole career), although I agree it’s reasonable not to be surprised if it happens. And for the others, remember that there are tons of different kinds of nonprofits, and passion for the cause won’t be a thing at all of them (trade associations, for instance – although certainly at anything cause-oriented). Pay can definitely be an issue, but again it varies so widely — there are so many orgs that pay competitively that I think it’s better for people to just understand it’s something that could be an issue be also might not be.

          1. Joey*

            But isn’t DC the Mecca of non profits and not really representative of what it’s like in the rest of the country?

          2. abby*

            Ha – the only place I was solicited to donate was at a very-much-for-profit. Our primary source of business was in danger of being eliminated by the newly-elected governor and we were all expected to donate to a fund established to fight this.

            I am now at a non-profit and have never been solicited to donate money or time.

        2. blackcat*

          I worked at a non-profit that had a super pushy plan to get everyone to donate. It was for some grants/other fundraising purposes to say that 100% of staff donated.

          I was actually okay because they were explicit in the pitch: the $ amount didn’t matter. At all. They wanted to claim 100% participation. It did not matter if that participation was $1 or even $0.50. Of course they’d be happy if we gave more, but that $1 would help them get a lot more $$$, so they’d love the $1. And so I gave $1, each year. My favorite part was getting my letter back to allow me to claim the tax deduction. They sent it through regular mail–probably using one half of my donation in stationary and postage!

    11. Felicia*

      The non profit I work at is extremely stable, and pays more than for-profits for my position.

      Don’t paint all non profits with the same brush, just like you wouldn’t do that in for profits.

      Also I love working in non profits and I intend to for my whole career if I can.

    12. CAP*

      Depends. A lot of smaller nonprofits can be just as tumultuous as start-ups with even more risk. If you can score a job with a big name, it’s similar to working at any big company. For the smaller ones, look at the turnover of staff, look at the financial allocations if you can, talk to some partners (sometimes listed on their webpage.) If you want to do more hands-on grassroots work, smaller nonprofits can be the best place for that. If you’re looking for some more stability, go big.

    13. JR*

      If it’s a cause I really believed in, I’d take a job at a nonprofit unless it was an absolutely awful place to work. You can’t expect the money at nonprofits to be as good as the private sector, but the tradeoff is you’re working for something you believe in. If you’re just doing it to get a job and don’t care about the work of the nonprofit I’d advise against it.

      1. Joey*

        But the same goes for any job. You generally have to believe in the product or service of the company you work for to be happy. youre making it sound like only non profits offer something to believe in. Hell, I, and many others believe in the goods and services sold by tons of for profit companies. What you’re really trading is the concept that the organizations purpose isn’t to make a profit. Personally I’d rather work for an organization that has products I believe in AND will share the profits that I helped generate. Id rather not tie my philanthropic efforts to my livelihood.

    14. CuriosityKilledTheAnon*

      Thanks all for the responses! I certainly don’t want to put all non-profits under the same umbrella and I definitely understand that they’re very similar to for-profits in many ways. I had just heard the stigma so much that I wondered if there was any truth to it. Thanks again!

    15. NoTurnover*

      I’ve worked in associations my entire career. At least at mine, the pay is competitive and it is EXTREMELY stable–we’ve been around since 1898. We don’t have a huge budget–no fancy Christmas parties or in-house snack service–but the budget is very stable year to year.

  3. Fawn*

    Embarrassingly simple winter work fashion question: I’m going to a one-day workshop where the dress will be professional. Typically, when I go to conference/workshops, I stay in a hotel the night before because they’re usually a bit of a trek from my city, so I have a room to change, put my things, etc. This one, though, is just an hour or so away, so I’ll be taking transit to get there. Part of the trip will inevitably involve some walking on slushy sidewalks.

    Should I wear my winter boots and change footwear once I get there? Is that…weird?

      1. Fawn*

        No – transit just makes more sense for a few reasons (I share a car with my partner, I can take the train and not have to worry about rush hour, I don’t love driving downtown Toronto).

        2. esra*

          Another Torontonian here. Totally not weird to wear boots + change. Even if it isn’t slushy, the amount of salt on the sidewalks can ruin your shoes.

    3. ExceptionToTheRule*

      Not weird, IMO. Walking on slushy sidewalks in heels would be weird to me. They’ll get that salt residue on them and look grimy all day. Bring a bag that you can fit your boots in and you should be fine.

      1. kristinyc*

        I usually wear black boots (leather, not snow) when I want to look nice but still have to walk around in gross weather. A lot of stores have fleece-lined tights that look like normal tights (I’ve found them at Target and Urban Outfitters). With a skirt, I wear those, thigh-high black leg warmers, regular socks, and then tall black boots. When I get to my destination, I roll down the leg warmers so they don’t show. I wear skirts more often than pants, and this trick has kept me warm and comfy!

            1. Celeste*

              I’ve bought them for my daughter at Nordstrom, but lots of places have them. I think Old Navy does, for example.

          2. A Teacher*

            I second the fleece lined tights! I work as an athletic trainer PRN and at the end of high school football season fleece lined tights have been amazing. I’ve bought the tights at Kohl’s and Walmart if that helps anyone.

            1. Bea W*

              Omg I took this advice posted a couple weeks ago and LOVE fleece lined leggings and tights. I went out in -5 F no problem. With these and some thick socks to wear in my boots, I was warmer than long underwear and pants. I could even sit on the benches without freezing my backside.

              Whoever talked about these a couple weeks ago I owe you a huge debt of warm gratitude for making my commute comfortable.

            2. EG*

              Me also! I bought a pair at Walmart a couple of weeks ago when temps here in Arkansas dropped to near zero for a couple of days. I was toasty and warm in the fleece lined tights (and two coats, two scarves, and fleece hat).

    4. Lo*

      I have done this for conferences, and do it at work, and if someone gave me a weird look for this, I would giggle. Keep on keepin’ on, and wear those slushy boots to the event then change into your work shoes there!

    5. CH*

      You are probably going to wear a winter coat and stash it somewhere. Boots really aren’t any different. Be practical and change at your destination. 100 years ago when I was in school, all the girls had pretty shoe bags for carrying shoes when they wore their winter boots. That should make a comeback.

      1. Elizabeth the Ginger*

        Ugh, for some reason, when I was in middle school, winter boots were Not Cool to wear to school. Instead, the Cool Thing was to wear sneakers even in several feet of snow and just ignore the fact that your feet were then cold and wet all day. Having a practical mother, I was made to wear my rubber snow boots anyway, and thus was mocked by the cool kids.

        1. Ezri*

          My Dad burst many blood vessels trying to convince my too-cool-for-that teenage siblings that flip-flops and snow were a bad combination. It never really sunk in.

          1. Intrepid Intern*

            I can’t say it sunk in for me either, until the day I tried to call my parents because it had snowed several inches while I was at school, and could they come pick me up?

            Then it sunk in.

        2. Bea W*

          It was hats for my school. Winter boots were okay in snow, but no one wore winter hats. I hated that. I get horrible headaches without a hat in anything below 50. I can go out coatless no problem in weather where I absolutely need to wear a hat or risk stabbing migraine-like pain.

          1. Jen RO*

            Hats for my school too! Funnily enough, I was fine without a hat at age 13, but I can’t go without one at 30…

      2. JMegan*

        Yes, definitely. Is it an official conference facility, like a hotel or the MTCC? (Hi, fellow Torontonian!) They will most likely have designated coat rooms where you can also leave your boots – you can always call the facility and ask if you’re not sure.

        Also check if the conference is in a building with access to the PATH, which would allow you to stay inside most or all of the way from the subway.

        In any case, there will definitely be at least a few people changing from boots to shoes once you get there.

      3. Dynamic Beige*

        You might want to bring 2 bags — one for your shoes (that will stay dry) and one for your boots, it will make it easier for the coat check person to hang it with your coat too.

        PATH is great. There are apps you can get to help you and the fact that almost everything in the downtown core is connected makes it so much easier.

    6. BadPlanning*

      I guess the only weird part would be if you have huge boots and no easy place to put them and have to haul around a huge bag. Then it’s more inconvenient than weird. But better than cold slushy feet.

      1. Bea W*

        This is when you will find piles of boots in a corner of the room even if there is no designated coat area, but with conferences where many attendees are expected to commute, there is generally a coat area and it is appropriate to also leave boots, umbrellas, and other outerwear there as well.

    7. Allison*

      You wouldn’t be the first woman to do it, and you may not be the only woman doing it at this conference! For peace of mind, see if they do coat check, and if so, see if you can leave your boots with them as well. It might feel odd asking the conference organizers what to do with your shoes, but I’m willing to bet they won’t judge.

    8. Beebs*

      I do this in all weather, as I am generally a pedestrian. In the summer I wear flats and switch in to my heels. Actually last year, I had a conference during the coldest week of the year and I walked to the site all bundled up, including leggings over my nylons. I arrived a bit early, went to the bathroom and removed the insane amount of layers I had on, and voila ready to go for the day.

      1. Brian_A*

        I am also a “getting put together in the washroom” person at meetings and events. I cycle year-round, and particularly in winter need to duck in to get out of my extra layers and look more presentable!

      2. louise*

        I’m so intrigued by people who can do this! I smell weird if I try. And am damp in places I do not wish to be.

    9. HR Manager*

      City commuter with a life-long practice of changing shoes. Not weird, and I know many people do this.

      I had a woman who came to interview with us and decided to wear heals in on an icy, snowy day. She slid and fell and broke her foot a few blocks from her interview. Need to impress does not override common sense and safety.

    11. Bea W*

      Not weird at all. Commuters who do any amount of walking or biking do this all the time even when the weather is good – work shoes for work, comfortable weather appropriate shoes for commuting. If it’s gross out you will not be the only person changing shoes.

    12. Monodon monoceros*

      Not weird at all. One time I volunteered at the coat check for the fancy shmancy fundraiser for the nonprofit I used to work for in a very cold, snowy city. Most of the ladies came in wearing their ball gowns and big winter boots and carrying their fancy shoes. We just gave coat check claims for boots too.

  4. Random Reader*

    What are some of your favorite workplace benefits? We have a great matching program- starting out at a 5% match when we put in 5%, then their contribution goes up every year. After 5 years, I would only be putting in 5% and they’ll be putting in 10, for a total of 15%! We also get quite a few gifted days off between Christmas and New Years. It’s dependent on when the holidays fall, but it’s not uncommon to get between 1.5-2 weeks off without using PTO and being paid for it.

    1. Sarah Nicole*

      I love the fact that my employer pays my health HMO and a dental PPO for me. I don’t pay premiums, just the copays or cost shares when I actually go to the doctor! It’s pretty sweet not having to budget $100 a month for health costs when I’m very young and healthy, so it’s good for my situation.

    2. Helen*

      Matching, a good health plan, and flexibility about time off–not necessarily a “flex schedule” (although that’s great too) but just being able to take a long lunch and make up the time later if you need to.

      1. Burlington*

        Oh, this. Sometimes a friend is having a persona crisis or something, and it’s nice to know that I can go have a leisurely two hour lunch with them, and make up the time over the course of the week without anyone giving me the side-eye.

    3. Calla*

      My employer pays 100% of health insurance AND provides an employer-funded hsa card that covers the deductible and then some. It’s not a “fun” benefit, but I not only don’t have to worry about premiums, I also don’t have to worry about co-pays or how much a prescription might cost, etc. This was a major factor in me deciding to take the job.

      We also have a massage therapist on-site, but while I would love to take advantage of that, it’s a guy and I’m only comfortable with female massage therapists.

      1. Burlington*

        And you can treat HSA’s as supplementary retirement accounts too, because they roll over forever. If you’re maxing out other retirement plans, and your employer ISN’T maxing out your HSA, you can start popping pre-tax money in there.

        1. Ezri*

          My employer has a deal where we get x amount of money into the HSA each year that we complete a preventative physical and submit a form. The physical is covered in our plan, too. :) It’s great incentive to get checked out now and then.

    4. TotesMaGoats*

      I work for a state university and get a ridiculous amount of leave. And I can carry over up to 400 hours of annual leave every year, unlimited amount of sick carry over. We get all the major holidays. Snow closings. 3 floating holidays and 3 personal days every year. It’s a struggle (aware that this is so a first world problem) this year to use up enough leave to stay under 400 hours.

    5. Adam*

      My most used workplace benefit and possibly most valuable is the free bus pass. These days in my city a one-way trip during rush hour could be over $2 or so. I’m not sure. I haven’t had to pay bus fare in years because my work issued pass makes it always free.

    6. BRR*

      -I get a 10% contribution unmatched into a 403b. I can contribute my own money to a Roth IRA.
      -26 days a year vacation (plus sick time). You can roll over up to 48 days automatically. We earn two days a month and two extra days annually. I like accumulating like this and rolling over automatically.
      -We just started a program to have your copays covered for diabetes medication (I’m a type 1 diabetic). You have to jump through some hoops but it will save me a fortune.

    7. matcha123*

      I’m not in the US, so take this with a grain of salt, but I get 20 days PTO along with 10 sick days and a monthly “menstrual day” that I can (and have) use.

      I’m pretty certain that all of my coworkers have the same, too.
      So, while the pay isn’t great, I can take a day off and rest if it’s not too busy.

      While it’s not totally tied to my workplace, the year-end holiday is about a week long and is not counted with PTO. There’s also “Golden Week” in May, which is basically 3 days of forced vacation time and “Silver Week” in September, another 3-day forced vacation. I’ll never see anything like this in the US.

        1. matcha123*

          Yes. I’m in Japan.
          Japan and Korea have menstrual days. I don’t know about other countries.
          It’s just one day a month, but as far as I know it’s not abused (because most women don’t want people to know about their periods) and in my case, I can either call in that morning, or say something during work and take my leave.

    8. kozinskey*

      State government: we start at 12 sick, 12 vacation, and 12 holidays off a year, and the sick & vacation go way, way up after 5 years. The holidays include Arbor Day. The pay is low but the work/life balance is hard to beat.

      1. CheeryO*

        +1 (We also do 37.5 hour weeks, and no one works a minute longer than that.)

        And for my industry, public and private sector pay is about even. In fact, after my probationary year is up, I’ll be making $5-10,000 more than my private sector peers, with automatic increases every year.

    9. SJP*

      UK employee but –
      25 days holiday
      free buffet lunch everyday
      paid sick days, not sure how many but quite a lot I think
      Medical insurance if I want private medical care (if the NHS take too long)
      Matching pension contributions
      Flexie Time
      Every single person gets their own at work MacBook Air that they can take home and use as their own outside of company time.. (we work on it all day as the work computer too)

      I love my place of work

      2. Heynonnynonnymous for this*

        You had me at free buffet lunch. :D

        Our headquarters has a cafeteria where employees can swipe their badges and they deduct the (super cheap) lunch cost from our paychecks. I don’t work at that location–and I’m glad, because it’s a 50-minute commute from my house, but I wish all the time we had it at the campus where I work. They probably won’t do it because we’re close to some restaurants. But there’s talk of expanding the campus and it certainly would be a major perk.

    10. periwinkle*

      Educational benefits are handy. My employer is exceptionally generous, to put it mildly. They have a list of approved schools (a nice mix of community colleges, 4-year colleges, and universities with graduate-level programs – about 250 total). They have a list of pre-approved programs of study, primarily in business, IT, and STEM disciplines. Pick an approved program at an approved school and they will pay 100% tuition and fees plus a textbook allowance. They will even pay for the graduation cap and gown. Everyone in my work group is either working on a degree or recently completed one.

      A good health plan is even more essential for U.S. folks, and my employer does a great job there too. If we had a Bring Your Pets To Work day, life here would be perfect! (well, until the day I brought in my youngest cat, whom we refer to as “The Destructor of Worlds”…)

      1. Nashira*

        And here I was feeling fancy because my employer will reimburse up to $5k a year for tuition, books, and certain fees!

    11. Christy*

      Federal employee–20 days annual PTO, 13 days sick PTO, 10 holidays (plus 12/26 some years!), good health insurance, match up to 5% for TSP, public transit up to $130/month, can telework 4 days/week, can start any time between 6 and 9:30 AM, can set a flexible schedule.

      I’m frustrated that the 6 weeks of parental leave that was just announced is just Obama saying we can draw from our sick leave before it’s earned.

      1. kozinskey*

        My head exploded when I heard that. Why is the US so resistant to just letting parents take some time to have a baby??

        1. BRR*

          Maternity and Paternity leave in the US feels like the dark ages. Like do people still believe the sun revolves around the earth. And keep in mind I usually am in the crowd that is frustrated by parental perks.

    12. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Teleworking. Any time the weather is treacherous (heavy snow, freezing rain) I just work from home another day — I have one scheduled telework day a week. Sick kid? Telework. Home repair/installation appointment? Telework.

    13. Christina*

      For practical purposes, our 403b contribution is great–they give everyone 5% AND they match up to 5%. So for every 5% I put in, I get twice that from them. I’m in my early 30s and already have a decent chunk of change (I’ve been working here for almost 9 years).

      I work for a university, so tuition benefits are pretty good too. They cover some programs more than others (25-85%), but I was able to get an MA in a subject I was interested in just for the hell of it and have 75% of it paid for. If I could have made a justification that it was also for my career, they probably would have paid for all of it. I can also audit some classes (though this depends on the prof, the program, and the schedule).

      Time off is also pretty nice–15 vacation days (20 after 10 years, 25 after 30–and yes there are many people who fall into that category) that roll over, 3 personal days, 10 holidays, 15 sick days
      (used to be 20/roll over, so basically unlimited but they switched to a better short term disability plan).

      One really nice perk a nearby university offers is a five-year forgivable loan of up to $10,000 towards the purchase of a home in the area. They only give out 25 of these a year, but still a nice way to get people invested in the area.

      1. Christina*

        Oh, we also used to have a weekly telecommuting option in my department (IT). I, and many of us, absolutely loved it, but management decided no/only occasionally at direct manager’s discretion (which in my case basically means no or I get guilted about asking if the weather is awful). I still miss it.

    14. Apollo Warbucks*

      I’m not long into my new job but I’m loving decent coffee, bacon sandwiches and some of the best mountain biking in town 5 minuets down the road

        1. Apollo Warbucks*

          Yes I’m in the UK, and yes British bacon is amazing. Don’t get a fry up in the airport, find the closest cabbie (driving a Hackney carriage, not a mini cab) and ask them to take you to their favouirte greasy spoon cafe.

          1. Elizabeth West*

            Oh I won’t get it at the airport, don’t worry. And if I take a cab (don’t usually because it’s a bit spendy), it’s always a black cab. ALWAYS. I love them because it’s like riding in a tiny limo. :D

            I have not touched streaky bacon since I got home. I am seriously dying here.

    15. Beancounter in Texas*

      My Jewish employer (the same one about whom I wrote about making the refrigerator kosher during Passover https://www.askamanager.org/2014/08/my-boss-makes-us-all-keep-kosher-for-passover.html) is generous by giving all employees (Gentile and Jew alike) a paid holiday for the Jewish holidays on which no work is permitted, which ranges from 6 to 12 days off, depending on the year. This is in addition to two weeks vacation and six days off for US national holidays. We’re technically working eleven months a year!

      And side note on the Passover ban on coffee, I’ve resorted to picking up my own coffee in the morning. I still haven’t resolved the refrigerator issue though.

    16. Kyle*

      I was just thinking about this!

      At my current employer:
      * We have a solid health and dental plan with premiums that are 100% paid by the employer (for individuals or families), plus we get reimbursed for the first half of our deductible.
      * Generous work-from-home policies and just general flexibility. And when I see people complaining here about parents getting more time off than non-parents I feel grateful that that isn’t really a problem here – yes, people with kids sometimes WFH or take time off for kid stuff, but single/childless folks aren’t penalized for taking time for vacations, visiting art exhibits, whatever.
      * FREE LUNCH. The fridge is always stocked with all of Whole Foods’ finest prepared foods, so it’s easy to have a healthy lunch (and/or breakfast dinner). Most afternoons there’s some kind of cheese plate/charcuterie situation. And there are frequent special occasions that require the consumption of fancy pastries. And there’s a bottomless supply of Greek yogurt and seltzer, for the dieters.

      I had more vacation and better retirement matching at previous jobs, which I do miss, but overall I’m very very happy with the benefits package here.

    17. Colette*

      Here are the ones I use:
      – time off (4 weeks + 2 shutdowns/year)
      – supplemental health (massage, physio, prescriptions, dentist, etc.)
      – wellness dollars (up to $X/year for fitness programs outside of work)
      – free membership to the work gym
      – money for volunteering (to be specific, for every X hours I volunteer, the company pays $Y to the organization I volunteer with)
      – stock purchase plan

    18. Mike C.*

      It’s not my workplace that does it, but the US Post Office has a great one. If any crime happens to someone in uniform, the USPO has a schedule of rewards for information leading to the conviction of the person who committed the crime. Anything from simple assault and theft all the way up to murder.

      How many other people can say, “in the case of my illegal death, my employer will put up significant sums of money to ensure I am avenged”? That’s pretty awesome in my book.

    19. Lily in NYC*

      Vacation buy-back! In December, we are allowed to sell up to 10 unused vacation days. Some years they allow 15 days. It rocks. A perk I would love is to telecommute once a week, or even once a month. But it’s frowned upon here.

    20. krm*

      Automatic 8% contribution to our 403b, with 4 year vesting period- this is unheard of in our area!
      Free lunch in the cafeteria- the food isn’t always good, but its great to know that we have a free option!
      Flexible scheduling and work from home options

      1. krm*

        forgot to mention the wellness program- they will pay for 50% of elligible wellness costs (gym memberships, rec league, weight watchers, etc).
        also, vacation buyout twice a year, up to 80 hours generally at 100%

    21. HR Manager*

      We have a decent PTO policy, and we now have a shutdown between Xmas and New Year’s. Best benefit ever. In general, our office is quite casual, so the casual approach to work from home and taking time off is a great perk.

    22. Lizabeth*

      I’m jealous reading about all this seriously great benefits…I think I’m working at the wrong place (they dropped their 401K match over a year ago and are currently having problems paying vendor bills on time)

    23. puddin*

      We have a very good 401k plan where, even if you do not contribute the company will fund an amount equal to 5% of your salary to it every year plus they match.

      And we have holiday shutdown Dec 24- Jan 2. Fairly common in manufacturing, but a welcome perk of time off when I need it most.

    24. Alicia*

      My favourite is that I put 5% in for retirement and they match with 7.5%. Also, since it’s a university, I have an obscene amount of leave. I always have a week and a half off at Christmastime, I have 4 weeks of vacation, plus a zillion sick days, all the stat holidays (basically a long weekend every month), and another few days off that have different rules than vacation days. I split other benefits 50/50 with my employer, but I’ll take that – there isn’t even a copay on prescriptions! It’s just $0 to pick up my medicine when I need it.

    25. arual*

      because i don’t take our health benefits through out cafeteria plan i can cash out my monthly flexible benefit credit and have it be added income into each paycheck. comes to about 500 extra each month. not too shabby.

    26. CA Admin*

      My employer pays 100% for health, dental, and vision coverage for me, my spouse, and any dependents. No premiums for me!

      1. Finny*

        I would love that. Last time I had to get glasses, mine were $750 a pair, and I only get $200 back, every two years. (My glasses are so expensive thanks to a massive prescription plus prism; I get the cheapest frames that will still fit me, and they have to be bright plastic because of the thickness of my lenses and so I can find them by colour once I take them off.)

    27. AvonLady Barksdale*

      We get the week off between Christmas and New Year’s, and it is amazing– since we only get 10 official vacation days/year, no one needs to save up for travel during those holidays. We also have unlimited sick leave. The best perk is Fridays, which are non-client days meant to get you thinking more about your work on a broader level. We don’t have to come in if we don’t want to, and if we do come in, we’re encouraged to leave no later than 2pm.

      My particular office has very flexible hours and my boss doesn’t care if I leave early or if I go to an appointment during the day. He also doesn’t care if we decide to do our work from the coffee shop down the street. It’s taken some getting used to, but I do appreciate it.

    28. JR*

      The best benefit where I work is a lot of time off and true work-life balance. I’m up to 5 weeks and 3 days of vacation (which I actually get to take), and 12 holidays. Working late occurs VERY rarely–maybe 2-3 times a year.

      The tradeoff is that the pay is lower here than the private sector for the same work and there are no bonuses, company parties, etc. This is fine with me.

    29. FatBigot*

      A Stores/Postroom function that will accept, sign for and store securely almost any incoming package, as long as it’s legal and non-alcoholic. Then e-mail you to come and get it. The place goes mad in the run-up to Christmas. They don’t mind a carrier (that you have arranged and paid for) picking up stuff either, e.g. for e-bay.

      It helps that most of us are so nerdy that it’s hard to tell the difference between work and personal stuff most of the time. That leads to the other benefit: Access to fully equipped electrical/electronic & mechanical workshops.

    30. AnonToday4This1*

      Some of the perks that I like are (private university):
      1. 100% tuition for myself, dependents under 24, and spouse (undergrad only). Taxed on cost of tuition for graduate degrees.
      -Degree bonus for completing bachelors, graduate, and PhD.
      2. 403b matching up to 9.5%. Employees can contribute between 1-6%, so the more you contribute the more they match.
      3. Free yearly pass for public transportation
      4. 10-20 sick days (depends on years of service) a year with roll-over every year. I’ve been here awhile, so I have somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 sick days.
      5. 12-25 vacation days a year (depends on years of service). 1 personal day a year.
      6. Paid holidays, including the day after Thanksgiving and Dec. 24 through Jan. 1 (with no hit to your vacation/sick time). Snow days/ delayed snow schedule.
      7. While the health insurance is pretty standard, the vision and dental are amazing. Adult orthodontia coverage for myself, spouse, and dependents up to 24. The same with the vision plan.
      8. Free lunches (not all of the time though) for back to school, holidays (even non-U.S holidays such as Chinese New Year), and staff appreciation.

      The pay is very competitive for Academia but honestly, whatever they paid me I would still accept it because free tuition for my kids trumps almost everything. :-)

    31. GA! (Lisa)*

      ~100% 401(k) match, up to the IRS max (so if you can put aside $18k in 2015, the company will give you $18k)
      ~ profit sharing (if possible)
      ~10.5 days holiday
      ~PTO is accrued by the hour, a 40 hour work week gets you 10 days/ year (so, more if you work OT), goes up to 15 days after 5 years, 20 days after 10 years, 25 days after 15 years, 30 days after 20 years
      ~ dental and vision 100% paid for employee, domestic partner and family
      ~medical paid for employee, DP or family only pay the difference (so if cost of employee is X, and DP is X+$150/mo, cost is only $150/ mo)
      ~$1000 set aside in an HRA to help cover deductible costs (we have three plans: $3000, $2000, $1500)
      ~VERY flexible attitude about work time. Long lunches, early/late starts and leaves, taking days off, WFH, anything goes . . . as long as its communicated and you get your work done. If you let your team down and people start talking — WHAM! The privilege gets taken away for awhile. (One person got fired for it, but he was seriously egregious.)
      ~Dogs allowed (not every day, but fairly regularly) as long as they are well behaved
      ~Monies can be available for education and/ or professional conferences as long as you make a business case, and its a single individual making that decision, not a committee so its not a huge in most cases
      ~Bonuses of 10-20% of salary on top of market rate wages, and most employees are non exempt so they earn OT
      ~You can take time off but don’t have to use your PTO (you just don’t get paid)

    32. PizzaSquared*

      My company pays for my gym membership, has free lunch every day, and subsidizes my commute. Pretty sweet!

      1. PizzaSquared*

        Oh, also, I forgot – they give me extra cash money on my paycheck every month for not using the health insurance (I’m on my spouse’s plan).

    33. Jen RO*

      (Not in the US)
      20 days PTO (24 after 3 years)
      Medical insurance with 2 different companies, with very good coverage
      Free coffee and hot chocolate
      Flexibility (WFH if you need to wait for the plumber, etc; ability to go to medical appointments and the like during the work day, making up the time later).
      Occasional sweets on company event days

    34. BananaPants*

      Our employee education program is really pretty stellar. They pay everything up-front – tuition, fees, textbooks – and give you PTO each week during the semester to study. You can study whatever you like, it doesn’t have to be related to your job. In the US, you can attend most regionally accredited schools (excluding the expensive for-profits like U of Phoenix). I’ve earned two master’s degrees which were paid for 100% by my employer, and just started a third master’s program.

  5. Helen*

    Hiring managers–I’d like your thoughts on thank you/followup notes (sorry, I know this topic has been beaten to death). The traditional advice (including on AAM) is to sort of “sell” yourself again and say why you’re a good fit for the role. But when I do that, I feel so grovel-y and desperate, and in turn less attractive to the employer. Because of this, after my most recent interview, my thank you note just said something like, “I enjoyed talking with you and learning so much about X. Y seems like a great place to work.” Thoughts?

    1. CrazyCatLady*

      I have the same struggle with thank you emails. I usually say almost exactly what you say and then add that I’m very interested in the position.

    2. Sarah Nicole*

      I approach it like some of Alison’s other advice that I have seen, which is to continue the conversation. For my current job I have 4 interviews, and one in particular was a dinner interview at which I was a little nervous. I could remember a couple of questions that I thought I could provide a better answer for, so when I wrote my thank you note, I said that I thought I had a better answer for one of the questions. I said, “After some reflection, I feel I can provide a better answer about…” and gave that answer. It really helped as he was impressed with that approach.

      I’m not a hiring manager, just here to say what has worked for me more than once. I also always thank them for their time and let them know I’m more interested in the position after speaking with them. Hope I have helped a little!

      1. Melly*

        This. I don’t say “I could provide a better answer…” but I do reflect on something very specific we discussed.

    3. Pooski*

      I’m not a hiring manager, but in my job search(es) I’ve always brought up something from the interview that I learned about the position or company that I thought was interesting or exciting. I think its a great way to show that I was paying attention during the interview, and have an honest interest in the position. If it makes sense I will also mention how that item is a great fit for me, bringing up an accomplishment or interest I might not have had time to mention in the interview.

    4. AndersonDarling*

      I’ll say something about the interview that I found interesting, but I don’t try to sell myself. I honestly think of a thank you as saying “thank you.” I don’t think that anything I say in a thank you note would move me to the top of the list, but if I sound desperate and give a sales pitch, then I may drop in the list.

    5. Burlington*

      I’ve done some hiring, and honestly, I don’t really care about follow-up emails or “thank you” notes. They obviously don’t reflect badly on anyone, but I just don’t care. If you and another candidate were equal in every other way but you sent an email and the other didn’t, I’d probably need another interview or would end up making a determination based on something else equally inconsequential (to me).

      BUT, I will say, think of them as follow-ups and not “thank you’s,” and definitely a super salesy one will turn me off. So, on the one hand, many employers really like them, so maybe you should do one. On the other hand, you’re marginally more likely to hurt yourself than help yourself with me. So I’m not very helpful.

    6. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Whoa, wait, my advice is definitely not to try to sell yourself! Well, not in a salesy way at least. You want to strengthen your candidacy, of course, but you do that by showing continued enthusiasm for the job and building on the conversation you had in the interview, not by trying to sell anything. For instance: “Thanks so much for talking with me about the X job yesterday. I loved hearing about your work in Y, and am totally intrigued by your points about A and B. It made me think one way to get at B could be W. Anyway, I really appreciated the chance to talk and look forward to hearing about the next steps in your process. Have a great weekend.”

    7. Random Name*

      Usually the thank you emails I get are just the “thank you for speaking with me, I’m interested in the job” type. However, I got this really great follow up email once from a candidate that did not interview well and who we were not planning on bringing back for a second interview. However, we did bring her back for a second interview because of her email. She mentioned that when we told her more about the specifics of the position it sounded like it had been tailored just for her because the tasks the position focused on were things she enjoyed doing in her current and previous positions. Then she mentioned specific things she took away from the interview about the company and that they were things she found important and reinforced how she felt like she would fit in well here. She also worked in a relevant reference to a book she had read that she had mentioned during the interview (it was a book about how to be successful in the workplace. My boss and I agreed it was the best follow up email we had ever received. And it served its purpose by getting her a second interview.

    8. Marcy*

      I do my own hiring when we have positions open in my department. A thank you email is nice but I have had applicants disqualify themselves from further consideration due to typos and strange formatting (I had one who randomly highlighted certain words in yellow and used all caps when writing the word “YOU”). I also had one who obviously copied and pasted from other emails because the fonts were different- that made him seem lazy. I usually need very detail-oriented people in the positions I hire for because we do a lot of database entry and reporting.
      An actual thank you note send in the mail is fine, too. I hate when applicants try to drop them off in person. Our front desk people are not allowed to hold anything, not even a piece of paper. If someone tries to drop off a piece of paper, the front desk people will start calling all over the place to find me, even if I am in a meeting, and make me come down to get it. I realize the applicant has no idea that is going to happen, but it is annoying anyway.

    9. Alternative*

      I’m really glad you posted this – I was just struggling with writing a thank you/follow up myself. Even doing the “tie it back to the interview conversation, or build upon what was discussed” feels really fake and forced to me. Everything I see or write seems very cheesy and cliche.

  6. Ash (the other one)*

    I am looking for good resources about how to delegate and let go of work. I’m realizing I have a staff for a reason, but its so hard for me to let go of work, especially when I know how critical its success is to the overall projects. I am still green to managing (and I have Alison’s book), so anything you can suggest, would be really appreciative!

    1. Celeste*

      You can delegate a task, but you can never delegate responsibility. I think that’s why it feels fraught. But clearly you can’t have your hands on every task. Make it clear how important the work is, and set up checkpoints for completion. Check in on time, and give feedback as needed. You have to trust, and that might take getting used to. Think about how you like to be treated and acknowledge good work. Good luck!

      1. HigherEd Admin*

        You can delegate a task, but you can never delegate responsibility.

        I don’t know why, but this phrasing just really, really helped me put this issue in a whole new perspective. Thank you!

        2. LBK*

          +1, that phrase is definitely going into my lexicon. So simple but so perfectly cuts to the core of the issue.

    2. AwesomeCreativePM*

      I run in to this issue frequently. The best way to let go is building trust. You have to build trust before you can completely let go. Part of that trust is training; training them to your expectations as their manager. Once you see that they are meeting your expectations you’ll be able to trust that they can handle the task you delegate. I agree with Celeste; start by setting up checkpoints. Check points and feedback is good and based on that you’ll see if you can trust them and delegating tasks will become easier for you and you’ll see how great it is for you to delegate!

      1. J.B.*

        And to add to this, going through the exercise of what is important, what success in a task would look like, and communicating that clearly will really help the person you are delegating too. I am not a manager but am often on the receiving end. People often do not communicate as clearly as they think, or may not even have the idea cemented in their own minds. If you expect staff to read your minds no one will be satisfied with the results.

    3. A Jane*

      For every task I had, I thought to myself, “Is this something I could hand off to X?” It usually came into three categories: 1) Yes, 2) Yes, assuming A,B,C and 3) No, this is something I need to take care of myself. If it fell into the 2nd category, I worked on making sure A, B, and C were set up so I didn’t have to it anymore. If it fell into 3, I really needed to think about why it’s 3. Sometimes, you’ll recognize that it’s more a 2 than a 3.

    4. squids*

      I’m on the other side of this — my boss doesn’t delegate nearly enough, and it’s causing problems in workflow for me and him and everyone else. It’s not just uneven workload (there is more than plenty to do) but I can’t get work I’ve already done approved or put into motion, and I end up spending a lot of my time on low-urgency stuff while more important things are just left waiting.

      I don’t really have advice or resources, but I agree with the other comments about building trust — and keeping in mind that your staff (probably) want to earn and be given this trust in order to feel good about their own roles.

    5. Dawn*

      I have had the most success with delegating when I make sure to be clear about what it is that I want, EVEN IF I think the other person would probably know that offhand anyway. If I’ve been working with someone for 10 years, of course that would be different, but as a n00b manager it took a LOT of the stress away to just say “Here’s Task A, it’s for Henry, so it needs to be done in X Y Z way, just like that last task we did for Henry. He said he doesn’t care about the specifics on the lid report but getting the handle metrics precise is critical. He needs it by next Friday- can you get me a rough draft by Tuesday so I can look over it and we can edit together?”

      That’s how the Best Boss I Ever Had did things, and it was great because A) I learned how she wanted things done because I worked closely with her on a lot of assignments B) I knew she had my back in all of the work I turned in because we had gone over it together and C) When she stopped wanting to review every little thing with me, I knew that meant she trusted me- so I felt like I had “leveled up” at my job!

  7. AJay*

    How much do annual evaluations really matter? I have been working at my first full-time job for two years now, and am only familiar with the way my company does evaluations. Everyone is rated on a scale of 1-5 for a variety of different categories, and my department makes a point of never giving anyone the highest rating (5). I’ve only receive 3s and 4s, yet have received a few raises and a promotion since I started working here (which is unusual in my company). Since I am unaware of the professional norms outside of my company, I don’t know if these evaluations have greater implications or if I should even care about my scores. It seems like these evaluations are used mainly as a way to give feedback, but I’m wondering if having a work history of “3s” will come back to haunt me later…

      1. Marcy*

        In some places, you can’t earn a 5. I work in one of those. We are told that nobody should get a five because there is always room for improvement. They want to see mostly 3s because that is considered doing your job as expected. I usually give my staff a lot of 4s because I can’t help but see a 3 as a “C”. My staff is great- they work hard and are not average. I wish they would replace the number system with “Employee does well with…” “Employee needs to improve….” “Employee needs to stop doing….” under each category and have the manager write in whatever feedback they think is needed.

        1. PizzaSquared*

          That seems ridiculous to me. What’s the point in having a top category if it’s never used? I believe in using the whole range, but the top level is definitely for truly outstanding, far beyond expectations, work. That means that it doesn’t get used every evaluation period. But it does get used when it’s warranted.

        2. BRR*

          It sounds like this is the same type of place. But I think it’s ridiculous and by asking I want to put pressure on how stupid it is.

    2. Brenda*

      A lot of companies also use them to determine your annual raise. I think scoring systems really vary depending on the company and the manager – my old manager used to explain that she only gave “exceeds” if she really felt we’d truly surpassed expectations, not just done our jobs very well (which was what she expected of us). I was totally fine with that, and with her “exceeds” really meant something. Other managers at that company gave people “exceeds” for just showing up. I don’t think you should worry about it, they’re grading you within their departmental norms, you’re getting raises and promotions (and presumably positive feedback).

    3. YourCdnFriend*

      This totally depends on company norms. Having 3s at your current company isn’t going to impact you if you move companies. And if having 3s is the norm at your current company (which it sounds like it may be as it hasn’t stopped you from getting raises and a promotion) then I wouldn’t worry about it.

      I’d focus on the context of the ratings and the actual feedback of how you can improve. It’s also valuable to understand “what gets you a 5” like BRR recommended.

    4. Tornader*

      I think a big factor is what categories they use and which ones your lower scores were in. At my previous job one area that was scored (1-5) was “Adheres to Policy.” I received a 3 because I met the standard. How you go above and beyond adhering to policy I’ll never know…maybe write a set of personal policies and adhere to them as well?

      1. Tris Prior*

        haha. At one place I worked one of the performance review categories was punctuality and attendance. I always wondered exactly how one exceeds expectations in that area. I mean, my boss expected me to be on time every day, so exceeding that would be, what, never leaving work?

      2. OhNo*

        I never understood why questions like the “adheres to policy” one you mention are graded on a scale. Most things that I’ve seen on performance evaluations, the graded scale makes sense because it’s something you can do better or worse based on how hard you work, what you put into it, etc. But for ones like that… Why not just have a yes/no checkbox option?

    5. LCL*

      It totally depends on the company. I just finished writing the evaluations for our group. But they aren’t tied to wages, or anything really. (Government employee.) Some years gone the boss and I clashed over how I wrote the evals. Because of the high level of technical skill required and shiftwork, I think people who can do the job should receive the highest rating. He believes that doing the job is just meeting expectations. He won, and I don’t like it but I do it.

    6. A Jane*

      If possible, ask your manager how they’re instructed to address ratings. Also, see if you can get an example of what a 5 would look like in your responsibilities

    7. Dawn*

      At my last job a 3 was considered “Totally, completely, awesomely average and competent in every way”, a 4 was “You are a TOTAL ROCKSTAR at this and shine bright like a diamond” and a 5 was “You’re Jesus Christ and basically walk on water”. 5’s were practically unheard of.

      Definitely agree with everyone else that the best thing to do is ask about your specific corporate culture and how they grade things. I feel like school grades don’t prepare people well for work “grades” because at school an A is as high as you can get and means you’re totally awesome, whereas frequently work “grades” are done on a curve so that the middle grade means you’re awesome and anything higher than that is really, really hard to get.

      1. Ann Furthermore*

        Ha. That’s how it is at my company too. If you get a 3, which is Met Expectations, that’s actually meant to be a good, solid ranking that is nothing to be ashamed of. But since it’s done on that 1-5 scale, many people (including me) think of it as just being average, or a C student.

        I’ve gotten a 4, Exceeded Expectations, a few times when I’ve successfully dealt with significant challenges (learning an entire new system with no background, launching a project on time, etc). And I’ve gotten 5’s just on individual pieces of my evaluation, but never ever a ranking of 5 overall. Like you said, it’s pretty much unheard of.

      2. AJay*

        Thanks for all of the feedback! I actually had a chance to ask my boss about it today, and he basically described it the way you and Ann Furthermore do – with 5’s being unheard of and an indication that you have outgrown your job.

    8. Jen RO*

      My company is similar and the rankings are only used at bonus time (e. g. on years when there are insufficient bonus money, only people at 4+ would get a bonus). The numbers don’t mean anything outside the company (and honestly, I doubt people inside the company really care about them).

  8. louise*

    I’m going to have a booth at a 7th grade career fair in a couple weeks – mostly 13 year olds. I’d be more confident about this if I were talking to older kids closer to launching a career OR if I were actually giving a talk rather than trying to design a booth, so I’d love some suggestions for what would be relevant to this age.

    My ideas so far:

    1. Posters of college and non-college career paths at our company (maybe this would be better integrated as one of the choices in my next paragraph).

    2. Flow chart (or maybe set it up like a big board game looking thing) of I prefer to… (choice of) sit still most of the time/be moving always/combination, then those lead to a choice of I like to…(choices include) be outside/be inside/combination, get up early/sleep in late, etc. Maybe make my own decisions/get assignments (except every job has elements of both…). Maybe a “my favorite subject is…”
    Depending on the course they take, they’ll end up on one of the jobs our company offers. (We have a HUGE range of things among a bunch of little divisions—everything from truck driver to pilot to accountant to railroad workers.)

    If I do a flow chart, I think it would be cool to include a separation of I’m a girl/I’m a guy that loop to the same box stating “It doesn’t matter! Regardless of who has traditionally done a job, anyone who develops the right skills can do what they want. Don’t listen to anyone who tells you differently!” or something along those lines. Any ideas for a better way to word that?

    1. kristinyc*

      Maybe something listing skills they should be developing now for certain jobs for when they’re old enough to work? Like, for what I do, it would have been REALLY helpful if I had learned HTML when I was younger.

      So like, ” What to be a pilot? You should thinking about taking ____ classes and learning about ____?”

      I like the “My favorite subject is…” idea – that’s really relatable, and helps them make connections about how they can turn their interests into careers.

    2. fposte*

      Ooh, you had me at “flow chart.” And I love the gender thing. I might leave out the “regardless of who has traditionally done a job”–I don’t think it earns its extra space–and cut straight to “Anyone who develops the right skills.”

      Does your company include some positions that kids won’t have heard of as well as those they might have? If you have room, maybe you can include some funky job titles on there and then have a lift-the-flap function to explain what it is. (People love lifting flaps.)

      1. kozinskey*

        You could have the girl/guy arrows point to a box that just says, “It doesn’t matter! What do YOU want to do?” and then go from there. Little punchier.

      2. Allison*

        “might leave out the “regardless of who has traditionally done a job””

        I have to agree, if you’re encouraging people to do what they want regardless of gender, it might be best to not even put it in their minds that things are traditionally gendered.

      3. louise*

        Flaps! Brilliant. Yes, we do have a few unfamiliar roles so that’s a great way to handle them.

        I like the idea of want to be ___? You need _____? and then it can cross reference with Like doing/studying ___? Think about becoming a _____!

        Everyone is giving great ideas!

    3. Adam*

      First off THANK YOU for including Non-College career paths in your list of possibilities. All my school did was beat into our heads that college was the answer which I think does a real disservice to the kids who just aren’t school oriented/interested.

      With that said I think a good thing at this age would be to get them thinking about what school subjects they really enjoy and are good at and how that might translate into potential careers down the line.

      Like math? Maybe you could be an accountant, computer programmer, etc.
      Good at writing? Maybe you could work in marketing, editing, etc.

      1. Lillie Lane*

        “First off THANK YOU for including Non-College career paths in your list of possibilities. All my school did was beat into our heads that college was the answer which I think does a real disservice to the kids who just aren’t school oriented/interested.”
        +1. Even as someone who loved school and going to college, I think it’s sad that many young people are pressured into college when it’s not right for them. There is no shame in following a different educational/career path.

      2. Rye-Ann*

        My high school did the same thing, and I agree that it’s not a good idea. Some people really aren’t suited to college and that’s okay – and those kids should be given advice on how to move forward without college, not just told “go to college or else.”

      3. Ann Furthermore*

        Amen. I went to college and my husband did not, and we’ve both been successful in our careers. Mike Rowe, who used to have that show Dirty Jobs on The Discovery Channel, has been talking about this for a long time.

        His suggestion is something like high schools letting kids choose either a college “track” or a trade-school/vocational school “track.” I think this is such a smart idea. Not every kid needs to go to college, wants to go to college, or even has the right mindset for college. And there’s nothing wrong with that. Plus, college can mean years and years of student loans and crushing debt. Lots of people kind of look down their noses at people who choose to become electricians or plumbers. But guess what? Not only are those jobs that will never be outsourced, a good electrician or plumber can make serious money.

        1. Adam*

          Agreed with all of this. When I was learning French in high school back in the day (circa 2000) it was my understanding that the French primary school system operated this way. When you entered high school you were either on a University Track or a Trade School/Equivalent track that prepared you more for things like being a chef, hotel management, physical trades and all those other jobs that college isn’t really geared towards. It seems like a great idea especially since it is true we will always need electricians and plumbers.

          1. Myrin*

            In Germany, we have three different kinds of school, with two of them gearing towards starting an apprenticeship (is that the right word? Like, learning how to be a craftsman or other jobs you don’t need a degree for) and one for those who want to go to university eventually. I’m always very baffled by how focused the US seems to be on college because it’s so different from here (culturally, I mean), that would never be a thing around here. (That’s not to say there aren’t some really outrageous problems with our school system but I think the overall structure is really beneficial to pretty much everyone.)

            1. Adam*

              That’s because for the past couple decades it’s very much been pushed that [higher] education is the way to get ahead, make money, and get out of poverty in this country. Look no further than how social media went absolutely nuts last week when President Obama said that he thought community college should be free like it is in Tennessee [long story WAY short].

              But in America once you get out in the world you start to realize that a bachelors is no guarantee of pretty much anything except student loan debt at this point. And Allison here has a firm history of warning people against going back to school to get a masters or more in education as a means of furthering their careers unless their chosen field absolutely requires it.

              It’s taken a long time for this bubble to burst, but it will eventually as tuition rates have gotten pretty insane across the board and are only going up.

        2. Lizzie*

          The key there is to let them choose. “Tracking” is such a dirty word in education, and I think that’s part of what fuels the college-mania.

    4. Elizabeth the Ginger*

      I love the flow chart idea! The middle schoolers at my school really enjoy those and usually include one in the yearbook. (I think last year’s was “What Famous Landmark Are You?”)

      1. SJP*

        I think Adam’s reply is spot on! Because when I was at school I knew which subjects I enjoyed but had no idea what I wanted to do when I was older..
        If I’d known If I was focusing on X subject then I could look into going into X career path!
        Plus I do wish schools did a few classes on how to write a CV and cover letter and stuff. We get taught a lot of stuff at school which people hardly use in their work lives..

        PS, I like how you’re breaking down the stereotype of gendered roles early, really refreshing to see! Kudos

      2. louise*

        Okay, the landmark thing makes want to make it a quiz style instead of flowchart and maybe do it on iPads?! I think I can get my hands on a few if I sweet talk some co-workers… And if I can’t, I might still model it off that format (where there is a picture that goes with each choice for example) rather than a more business looking flowchart. Are kids as in to all the stupid quizzes my 30-50something friends link to on FB?

        1. Natalie*

          I actually like the flowchart better, because you can see different possibilities at once. If, say, I’m a 13-year-old that really loves math and writing, I can look at the flowchart and see the different potential directions. But with the quiz I have to pick one.

          1. louise*

            ooh, good point, Natalie. Thank you. I will not waste time trying to make a quiz work. :)

            (Out of curiosity, did you read Choose Your Own Adventure books? I always loved going through and reading every single possible scenario combination.)

  9. Anon for This*

    I work for a small, family-owned company. The office staff is primarily family members and me. I have to cover for one of the family members when she’s out of the office but lately, she will go on vacation and literally give me no notice. I won’t find out until I come in that day that I have to do her work on top of mine. It’s really frustrating because I resent that SHE can’t be allowed to get behind on her work, but I have to potentially get behind on mine because I’m also doing her work. If I had some notice, at least I could plan my own workload accordingly. It’s one thing if she wants to take last minute vacations and it only affects her own workload, but this legitimately affects me. I know it’s probably just something I have to deal with because it’s family, but anyone have any suggestions on how to handle it? Her boss is her father if that makes a difference.

    1. Sunflower*

      Have you tried talking to her about it? Maybe suggest keeping a book/calendar of dates when everyone will be out of the office?

      1. Anon for this*

        Yes, I have. Anytime I’ve tried talking to her about things though, it seems like she understands my point, but usually doesn’t follow through with any changes. It’s only been a week or so since I talked to her though, so we’ll see what happens moving forward.

        1. YourCdnFriend*

          You may have already but next time you talk to her, emphasize the impact of her actions, not just her actions. “When I don’t get notice, I get swamped and x, y and z fall off the rails which hurts the company in this specific way.” And then frame the solution, “we could avoid all that if to stopped being an inconsiderate jerk.”

          Ok, maybe “we could avoid all that if you can give me a weeks notice in an ideal world and a days notice bare minimum, barring emergencies” instead. :)

        2. Beancounter in Texas*

          YourCdnFriends has a good suggestion. Depending on whether her father will enforce any changes, talk to him after the next incident of her skipping out on you. You might frame it as “FYI” if you’re not sure of the response you’ll get from him.

    3. Celeste*

      I guess you could talk to the boss and make sure that you doing her work in her absence is the priority. Maybe nobody has thought about that; it happens. I think you need to make it be about the work, and let them figure out what they want since you can’t confront her about notice.

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        Yes, I disagree that the priority is to talk to Co-worker. I would talk to my supervisor first and ask which takes priority, her tasks or mine. The boss should be made aware that your tasks may be delayed because of a lack of communication from Co-worker, since you couldn’t plan for this additional workload, and it’s up to them to let you know how they want you to manage the total workload.

        (Unless you’re a senior manager, in which case since you have authority many companies expect you to take the initiative to resolve those things yourself, but that doesn’t sound like that’s the case.)

        1. Anon for this*

          Her and my supervisor is her father. I don’t know if that makes a difference in what you’re saying, but I guess it’s worth mentioning.

          1. ThursdaysGeek*

            You might be stuck on priorities then. I suspect her work getting finished (and thus her looking good) are more important than you looking good. It’s probably not so visible that she’s not doing all of her work, only that hers is always finished and sometimes yours isn’t.

          2. The Cosmic Avenger*

            The only thing that would change for me would be that I would emphasize the question of whether the priority/deadlines of my work were flexible, then almost mention the additional work as kind of an example of something that might conflict, not as the main problem. (It is, but if you phrase it more in the theoretical he’s less likely to feel that his daughter is being highlighted as the problem.) But it’s still his call as to which work takes priority, since it’s his job to manage the assignments for his staff.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          I think that talking about impact would be helpful. “When Betty takes time off on short notice, I pick up her tasks of x, y and z. Which I do not mind doing. The problem comes in because I cannot spend time on my own tasks a, b and c. If I had more advanced notice I could get a,b and c buttoned up so I am free to do x, y and z. If advanced notice is not possible, how do you want me to prioritize these tasks when this happens?

          In other words, you’re thinking that the solution is to have more advanced notice. Offer the boss the opportunity to think of other solutions.

    4. SJP*

      I do suggest, as others have, and i’m sure Allison would also, talking to her first and outlining the problem.
      But if that isn’t fruitful then maybe sit down with the most senior owner, or someone senior to her who can be sympathetic for to you and say something like this
      “I wanted to speak to you about Jane. As you are aware, she often goes out on vacation at the last minute and does not give me notice in covering her project. I’ve spoken to her but she was quite dismissive about it so I wanted to just speak to you about it and hear your thoughts.
      When she goes out on leave with no notice it leaves me in a tight spot by getting behind on X by having to cover her Y,Z etc and I wondered if you could suggest something which could help us resolve this. It is damaging the business by X not getting done and it’s causing me a lot of stress, so i’d appreciate your input”
      And see what they have to say. They may say that you’re just gonna have to deal with it and you can make a decision on staying or whatever.
      But maybe in that conversation suggest you’ve come up with a shared calendar or something and she’s not using it, what else can you suggest.
      Obviously do try something like a shared calendar first and see what happens

      Good luck

      1. BadChoicesInc*

        I would actually go to the boss/father and say, Alexandra is not here today. I can do A, B, C of her tasks or X, Y, Z of my tasks. Could you pls tell me the priorities for the day?

    5. Mike C.*

      The cynic in me says to let some of her work fall by the wayside as a consequence for not being given advance notice.

      1. Anon for this*

        That’s sometimes what ends up happening – not out of spite but out of an inability to do two jobs. A lot of times, I end up stuck with work that she could have done while she was actually here, but chose not to – so that’s especially frustrating.

        1. Dynamic Beige*

          You might want to consider saying that the next time she goes away. Go into her father’s office and be direct, “Rasputin, I hate to bring this up but Alexandra has taken a vacation day today and I didn’t know that she was going to be away. If I have some advance notice from her of when she’s planning to leave, I can assess my workload and make adjustments so I can cover for her while she’s gone. However, most of the time, she doesn’t tell me when she’s going to take a day, which means I have to scramble. I have asked her more than once to just let me know when she’s planning on being away but she doesn’t remember to do so. The only reason I’m bringing this up today is that I have a lot of work to do on the TPS reports you requested to get them finished by the end of the day and I’m afraid that I will not complete my work since I now also have to do hers. Can you help me with a solution here?”

          IMO, so far you’ve been handling it all in silence so they don’t see it as a problem. The day something happens so you drop that ball, they aren’t going to look at the root of the problem — they’re only going to look at you. It’s time to speak up and get this out in the open. If the father/manager doesn’t see a problem or isn’t willing to correct his employee/daughter’s behaviour, then it’s time for you to decide if you can put up with it or should look for a new job.

        2. QualityControlFreak*

          Mike C. is right. There are workplaces that have this one person, who for whatever reason seems to be completely exempt from any responsibility for completing their own work – or for giving their coworkers any advance notice that they will be covering for them, for at matter. It’s not a problem for your boss if you have to drop your own tasks to take on hers, or prioritize them ahead of your own. As long as everything gets done.

          I wouldn’t feel too badly about dropping the ball on some of her tasks. If the boss calls you on the carpet, can you pull off a wide-eyed “Oh! I’m sorry – Cordelia didn’t tell me she was going on vacation. I thought she finished the Lame Report before she left!”

    6. puddin*

      Do we ever hear from the family members of family owned businesses or just the non-family people who have to work with them…?

      1. AmyNYC*

        Someone posted about working at their spouse’s family’s business – the question was about helping his/her mother-in-law

  10. CH*

    My smallish company does an annual raise for everyone beginning with the first pay period of the year. It is announced in late fall that there will be raises (a couple of times there were not). Then nothing else is said. On the first January payday, you check out your paycheck and there is a raise (not the same percentage for everyone although the range is fairly low). Some of us call it the surprise raise because there is so little information given. While we have annual reviews tied to anniversary date, it is generally “not done” to ask for a raise here, except maybe with significant promotions. Yesterday was the big day and while I am content with my increase and thankful to get a raise as I read on here about people not getting raises for years, you always wonder if you could do better elsewhere. What are your thoughts on this system?

    1. Sunflower*

      Sounds to me like the are avoiding paying people more than they want to. They figure since they are giving people more money free and clear with no additional effort besides doing a good job, it won’t occur to anyone to ask for more. I think it sucks but people who are nervous around bosses/scared to ask for raises probably love it.

    2. HR Manager*

      They’ve essentially decoupled performance reviews from increases, which is not a good thing in my opinion. If that’s how they want to do it (intentionally or not), that’s their prerogative, but I believe in linking performance to reward. A conversation regarding an increase should be accompanied by a “Thank you for a great year of hard work. Because you kicked butt, you’ve earned an xx increase.” [Paraphrased of course] “Or I expected more this year. Because of that, we’re not going to increase your salary yet. It will be considered when you show improvements in this and that.”

      1. Sharon*

        Mostly in agreement with you on this. But I’ve worked at a few companies where my review and verbal feedback from my supervisor was that I rocked it out, but was still told that because the “raise pie” is only so big, I would only be recieving x%. (Where x is usually between 1 and 2.8.) This is one of the things that contributed to my increasing cynicism: being told that I’m doing everything right but simple math prevents me from being compensated the way they feel I should.

      2. SarahBot*

        The company that I work for has consciously de-coupled performance reviews from salary increases – not because performance isn’t linked to reward (it is), but because a person’s performance isn’t the only thing that affects salary increases. Salary increases are also dependent on the business’s performance, so they wanted to ensure that everyone receives a formal review each year, whether or not the company’s performance allows for salary increases to be given.

        The usual communication to the staff is that the outcomes of their performance reviews *affect* any salary increases, but they aren’t 100% dependent on each other, if that makes sense.

  11. Ann Furthermore*

    I’ve been working on an ERP implementation with another division since about April of last year. There is one part that is completely new for them, and is essentially a complete re-design of the existing business process. I’m going out there next week for another round of testing for this piece of the project.

    I’ve been telling the users since about June that they need to be spending time in the application every day. Not all day every day, but some time every day. In one ear and out the other. We developed a custom form for them (and the pain involved in that is a whole separate rant) and were out there in October for a testing event. At that time my boss was very clear that they needed to go into the form and really hammer on it to make sure it worked the way they wanted it to. I followed up in early November with a list of the prep work they needed to do to be ready for the next round of testing, which starts on Monday.

    They didn’t start any of the prep work until this past Monday. They operate with a fire-drill, don’t do anything until the last minute mentality. On Tuesday we got an email about all the things in the form that weren’t working, which proves that they have not done ANY work whatsoever on this since October. The lead developer and his team jumped on it right away, and got everything fixed. We asked the users to test the changes before we moved them into the environment we’ll be using next week, and the response was, “Sorry, we’re too busy. Can’t do it.” So we went ahead and moved it. Sure enough, yesterday there were still things they didn’t like, and one person asked me, “Didn’t you guys test this before you moved it?”

    Well, that was it. I completely lost my composure, and although I wasn’t yelling, I was pretty harsh. I told them, “Yes, we tested it, and we thought it was fine. But we can’t be the ones to say it’s working correctly! It’s YOUR form! It’s YOUR business process! It’s YOUR system that YOU will have to live with after the launch! YOU have to be the ones to sign off on it!”

    There’s this expectation that we will do all the work, turn the system over to them, and everything will be perfect. And any question they have will be answered in this magical user guide they keep asking for that will tell them how to handle any scenario that might ever occur. I have told them repeatedly that a user guide is helpful (and they have tons of training materials already) but there is no substitute for hands-on testing to learn how the application works.

    I have a one-on-one with my boss today, and I’ll have to tell her what happened in case she hears about it. And I have to spend next week out there. I’d rather jab a knitting needle into my eye than get onto that plane Sunday. Ugh.

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I feel your pain. Some clients need a lot of managing/hand holding, but I have seen some people who were incredibly good at client management make progress on things like this where other people couldn’t. Can you break the testing down into smaller, more specific and detailed tasks for the client and put them on a timeline with your own updates, to show them that if they don’t complete these items, it will delay your tasks? And if they get them done sooner, you can start on your phase sooner? It sounds like this sort of thing will take a lot of time, and it may, but it might save you a lot more time in the long run, and it’ll certainly improve client relations.

    2. Hlyssande*

      Oh, ick!

      We’ve had a lot of trouble with that too in our various world areas (Latin America and Asia Pacific are notorious about this for us). In our case, we’d been making major changes to how our customer records are maintained, which requires changes to order entry forms, and the LA folks kept saying it was working, everything is fine, so we went live. Cue the screaming about how nothing was working. They didn’t actually test at all.

      Just this week I was told that the go live in less than two weeks for our AU and NZ team would require double entry in the new system and the old system when we’d previously been promised no double entry. Gah! Fortunately they came back the next day and said it wasn’t needed after all, but so frustrating!

      I’m as guilty of procrastination as the next person, but holy crap people. Please don’t leave major testing or information out until the last minute. Please!

    3. Ezri*

      Ugh. No real advice but I feel your pain. Getting end-users to cooperate can be like herding cats, and if you don’t have the authority to make them then there’s not much you can do. Hopefully they see this situation as a learning experience for them instead of blaming the developers.

      Would it help if you scheduled bi-weekly meetings to ‘demo’ the application? If they aren’t working on it themselves, at least that might force them to look at it.

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        Yes, the bi-weekly meetings (or conference calls, since it sounds like Ann is in a different location than this client) or status updates are a great idea! Personal motivation or productivity experts often write that breaking down a big project into smaller, more achievable steps or goals is a very effective way to keep yourself on track with larger projects, and I suggest applying that with this client.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Ugh. I can see how much of a pain this is and yet….
      If I had to test something at work, I would probably run away. I am already behind the eight ball when I start every day. Recently, I had to install a new machine. I finally got the machine after submitting all the paperwork, etc. (I did not have a choice about this machine, which did not matter to me. It was the timing involved that made a big problem.) No sooner did I get the machine, and the phone calls started “have you plugged it in yet?”
      I laughed. I only work a few days a week at this job and I cannot plug it in if I am not there. Then they called to ask, again. I wanted to say that I could not plug it in because I had to keep answering my phone. But I was good and simply said no.
      The instructions are in graphics not words. With my 50 plus y/o eyes, I had to borrow a magnifying glass to see the details of the picture. There was something about a card. Not finding a card in the box, I called. “You don’t need a card.” I crawled around under my desk, ran the numerous wires, disconnecting the old unit as I carefully and accurately replaced each wire involve. (Did I mention I am not a techie?) I got the machine installed and operational. I had to run a report off the new machine and I needed a password. I went back to the box and searched, no paper work for a password. I called again. I spent 15 minutes on hold, again. “Oh, you need a password?”

      This is called a management problem, just like what you have.

      Management wants to have all these things done and does not free up the time for these extra things to be accomplished. I am very fortunate, I have a wonderful immediate boss that never doubts that I am working at my fullest every day. She faces the similar deluge of demands on her time, so she is aware. Because of the incredible list of things, we do go right up to the drop-dead date on a lot of stuff.

      There is no choice.

      And that is my point. People who have a choice will generally choose not to work this way, because it’s such a bad way to work. Until management buys-in and says “okay, everyone stop what you are doing and look at this…” it’s probably not going to happen.

    5. JR*

      This sounds TOTALLY familiar. The same thing always happens with ERP implementations. You ask the users to test and ask them if everything is OK. They say “yes”. You turn the system on and then they barrage you with complaints. It’s just the way these things go.

      1. Ann Furthermore*

        I’ve been doing these implementations for a long time, and the biggest challenge is always getting the users to spend time learning the new system so they’re not completely drowning on day 1. And I get it — most times you’ve got your regular job duties to worry about, and testing drops to the bottom of the list. But this is far beyond anything else I’ve ever experienced.

        It’s the fire-drill/last minute mentality that just makes me insane. I do not function well in those types of environments, and I have no patience for them. But it’s how they do everything.

        Here’s an example. I went out there in November to work with them on defining some of their sub business processes. The trip had been planned for weeks, everyone knew I was coming. On my way to the airport, I stopped to gas up my car. When I got back in my phone rang, and it was my PM calling to tell me that they’d asked if I could reschedule my trip because of a “last minute emergency project.” When I was literally on my way to the airport!

    6. Malissa*

      I feel your pain. If I were you I’d try to get one person onsite on your side next week. Bribe them with a fancy dinner or what ever it takes. If you can get the buy-in from one, at least you’ll have someone testing it and possibly pushing others to do it.
      When I went through an ERP change I begged and cajoled my coworkers into trying it out and testing it. Those who did it got their problems fixed right away. Those who waited till the last minute got an I’m sorry the issue queue is really long now. I’ll let you know when it gets handled.

  12. kristinyc*

    Are suits still the norm for job interviews?

    I haven’t worn a suit at all in years. I’ve been working in startups in NYC, and just wearing nice business casual (skirt or dress with a cardigan, chinos and a button down, etc) has been perfectly fine for interviews. I have an interview next week at a large nonprofit, for a job that’s a pretty big step up from what I’ve been doing, and I want to look nice but don’t want to under/over dress. I have a few suits, but I bought them in 2007, and they feel SO much less stylish than anything else I own.

    Would a nice skirt, cashmere sweater, and button down under the sweater be okay? And if I do need to buy a suit – any recommendations for places to get them? I used to buy them at Express and Limited, but I don’t shop at either of those places anymore. (I’m more Gap, Banana Republic, and Anthropologie…)

    1. Adam*

      I think the safest bet is for you to go in suit of some sort. So long as you’re not going in an evening gown or something I don’t know if you could be over-dressed. I’ve worn a suit to every major job interview I’ve been on, and then went straight to business casual after I got the job. I never wore a suit again unless I went to some sort of public event where I was expected to look nice. But since I always made that initial effort, the organization knew I could dress up if need be which I’m sure was a plus (even if a minor one) in my favor. Good luck on your interview!

    2. Helen*

      I sort of make an educated guess about whether to wear a suit, but I would definitely buy one if you can afford it (or have your existing suits altered so that they’re more fashionable–maybe they just need to be made more “slim”). Does the nonprofit have pictures of the directors on their website? You might be able to get a sense of how formal they are from that. I’d err on the side of wearing a suit though.

      My suit is from Banana Republic. They have 40% off sales practically every other day, thankfully.

    3. Eliza Jane*

      I think suits are still very much the norm. You can get away with some variation on the theme — for instance, I have done a dress with a suit jacket over it — but for a large non-profit, I would think a cashmere sweater/button-down was a step below where you want to be. If I were an interviewer at my current company (a large nonprofit) or my last company (pharmaceuticals), it would stand out in a negative way.

      When I was interviewing for a startup, it would have been less noticeable.

    4. TotesMaGoats*

      Given all of this info, I’d lean towards wearing a suit. Even if it was suit separates, which will give you more mileage. Ann Taylor LOFT does a decent job with that but I’ve had a lot of luck at Macy’s. Good selection and decent pricing when on a sale. I’ve also done pretty well at the Kasper outlet.

    5. Mimmy*

      I’m curious about this as well. My husband has chided me for insisting on wearing a suit to interviews, but I always thought that was the expected thing. I have in the past also worn a nice pair of dark-colored slacks and a sweater set or a nice top and blazer–it’s depended on where I’m interviewing. For career fairs, I tend to stick with a full suit whereas for other places, I’ll take it down a notch while obviously still maintaining a professional appearance. (FTR, I’m in the nonprofit / human services field).

        1. A Teacher*

          Check out goodwill if there’s one close too. I got a cute suit top that works with black dress tops and its machine washable for $6 last year.

      2. Natalie*

        What field is your husband in? That usually makes a difference. My bf is a plumber and in his world, you wear suits and weddings and funerals. I am a little jealous because he can basically wear jeans to a job interview, as long as their clean and fit well.

        1. Mimmy*

          He does IT with a major telecommunications company. However, he works from home most days. When he does go into the office, the dress is business casual….I think he’s even worn jeans.

          1. Windchime*

            Yeah, I’m in IT and suits are pretty much not required to interview here. Many times, men will wear some casual version of a suit (like a jacket but no tie), but we’ve also hired people who just show up looking tidy and like they made a bit of an effort (think nice polo shirt and clean, pressed slacks). Women normally just wear nice pants/skirt and top. If someone is applying for management in IT, then it’s usually a suit.

    6. Spooky*

      I showed up in a suit to multiple interviews in NYC last summer and felt hopelessly overdressed in all of them – for several of the interviews, the candidates were all together in a waiting room, and I was the only one in a suit at any of them. None of the interviewers said anything, but it felt awkward (I’m in a media field, which is probably why.) I’d recommend a smart dress with a blazer and heels – it seems to be a nice middle ground.

      1. Bend & Snap*

        See, to me that’s just a modern version of a suit. That’s how I dress for work every day and it looks/feels as dressy as a suit but I don’t feel frumpy like I do in a suit.

        1. Spooky*

          Suits ARE frumpy! I’ve never found one that looks good on me! It taints the whole interview: I’m worried about looking like an idiot instead of focusing on the questions they’re asking me.

      2. kristinyc*

        That’s kind of where I was coming from – I’ve even interviewed a lot of people at previous jobs, and no one wore suits (but again, it was at startups). I also kind of don’t want to buy another suit that I’ll never wear (all the ones I already own have been worn only a handful of times). I’ll see what I can find shopping. :)

        1. Spooky*

          I bought my blazer at White House Black Market on clearance, and it’s served me well for years. Much less expensive than a full suit, too.

        2. Bend & Snap*

          Get a LBD and a well-cut blazer. Pair with cute tights, pumps, a great bag and whatever jewelry you feel comfortable with. Done!

      3. Tomato Frog*

        Is this a New York thing? I know that suits are the norm in my field elsewhere, but since getting a job in NYC I’ve heard two people in my field make mildly derisive comments about wearing them to interviews. These aren’t people who do hiring, but still, it’s left me wondering.

    8. HigherEd Admin*

      I would go with a suit, but maybe instead of wearing a button-down underneath, wear a sweater. That way, if you’re getting the vibe that you’re too formal, you can take off the suit jacket.

      I second everyone who has mentioned Banana Republic or Ann Taylor for suiting. I just got a great Ann Taylor jacket/skirt for 40% off.

      Also, if you are living in the same city as your alma mater (I see you are in NYC), I would check with their career center to see if they offer a suit rental service. I know our office loans out suits in all sizes for students and alumni who are going on interviews but don’t own their own suit.

    9. PurpleMonkeyDishwasher*

      I do think you need a suit, and I’d recommend Banana Republic. Their suiting pieces are pretty flattering on a wide variety of shapes, and they sell pants in 4 lengths – petite, short, regular, and tall – so if you’re a pants-suit type of person you don’t have to worry about getting the pants hemmed on short notice.

    10. lachevious*

      Timely question! I work in the legal field so it’s pretty normal for everyone to at least do the initial interview in a suit. Just a basic suit, as others have commented about, would suffice.

      The law-firm I currently work for is business casual (dress shirts/blouses/trousers/suits with no tie, etc.). I had an interview Monday during my lunch break at another law-firm, but instead of wearing a full suit and tipping everyone off (I know there are ways around this but I was feeling rather bold that day) I just put on my nicer pair of suit trousers and a black ballet-neck shirt with a black long-sleeved cardigan, same type of outfit I wear to my current job.

      I did not get the vibe that I was under-dressed, and my recruited informed me that out of everyone they interview, they liked me best – I was definitely more comfortable in my regular (still professional) work clothes which I think helped me relax a bit.

    11. Sparrow*

      J. Crew and Banana Republic might have options for suiting. Maybe also Ann Taylor or Macys. The Corporette or Cap Hill Style blogs might have other recommendations for where to buy suits at various price points. Good luck!

    12. Lily in NYC*

      Wear a suit! I work at a large non-profit and it would be noticed and frowned upon if an interviewee wore something casual.

      1. voluptuousfire*

        You can always do a black shift dress (which can always be worn again once you start working) with a nice blazer over it. Slightly less formal than a suit but still very professional.

        I recommend JC Penney every time. They usually have really decent sales and sometimes they even have $10 of $25 coupons which can really knock down the price of something. They’re having a big sale this weekend and there’s a huge JCP in the Manhattan Mall near Macy’s on 34th Street. Also Macy’s is having a one day sale on 1/17 and they have two day savings passes, one for $10 off 25 and one for $20 off $50. This time of year you can really clean up with clearance. Also the savings passes include clearance, so you’re in luck!

        1. voluptuousfire*

          Sorry, I got excited about sales. I refuse to buy anything at regular price nowadays and RetailMeNot is my best friend. :)

    13. esra*

      I guess it depends on the position and industry, because the closest I get to a suit is a blazer + blouse with slacks or a skirt.

      I think the only thing I’d change for your outfit is a blazer instead of the sweater.

    14. LAI*

      I don’t have an actual suit, but I usually wear a blazer with nice dress pants. Especially since I have several times had to go straight from work to an interview and didn’t want my old co-workers to notice that I was dressed up – but just take off the blazer and you’re in normal work clothes.

      1. skyline*

        I do this with my actual suit. I wear the full suit to the interview, and then either take off my jacket or replace it with a cardigan. Skirt/trousers + shirt/shell + cardigan is my everyday work uniform.

    15. skyline*

      It really depends on the nonprofit and the position. That said, I think it doesn’t hurt to err on the side of being more formal than not.

  13. Sinking Ship*

    Have you ever been tapped for a position that you have no interest in?

    One of our higher-ups pulled me aside yesterday to discuss an open role on one of our teams. I’m very qualified for the role but the problem is that this team has a really cruddy reputation (all of their team members are currently searching for other positions) and their leader sucks (i.e. gossips about associates, puts people down, etc).

    I have No Interest in going to this team. It’s not in a leadership role so I won’t really have an opportunity to change the culture. Plus, there is a good chance a raise won’t be part of the deal. How do I tell the higher-ups “thanks, but no thanks.”

    1. Night Cheese*

      I’d make about what you are interested in instead of the team. Something about “Thank you for considering me. I’m flattered, but my primary interest is in X, not Y.” And then ask to be considered for future roles that are more aligned with you interests.

    2. TotesMaGoats*

      Thanks but no thanks. I was told by my boss to apply for an AVP position because I’m pretty good at the business development stuff. But I hate doing it. My success hasn’t been intentional as it’s not a huge part of my job. I said I appreciate her recommendation but that position is entirely about sales that’s not something I want to do at all.

    3. ThursdaysGeek*

      I was at LastJob, I was told that there was an opportunity for me, and ActingManager said “You need to take this; do not turn this down.” After some research, it was obvious that ActingManager had no idea what I did (nor any interest in learning).

      The job was completely different than what I was doing. I was a developer, and it was a job in payroll. It had all the not-fun parts of the developer job I was doing: writing documentation, testing, more writing documentation, and I’d have to rely on someone else to do all the fun parts I was currently doing: software changes, tracking down and fixing bugs, getting them successfully implemented. Just thinking about it made me sick to my stomach. There was no pay change, and I was already underpaid. I’d been planning on taking some time off as my first grandkid was born, but in payroll you have to be there: payroll is more important than family. I turned it down.

      I had plenty of time with the new grandbaby, because they laid me off. I loved the job I had been doing, but being laid off was better than the alternative.

      1. Jerry Vandesic*

        Your ActingManager probably knew that your old job was being eliminated, and was trying to find something, anything, as a position for you. He wasn’t thinking about your old job, which was gone.

        1. ThursdaysGeek*

          Oh I’m sure he was. But the reason my job was going away was because he didn’t know what we did, didn’t care, and since he was just an acting manager, didn’t bother fighting for his people. The layoffs were disproportionally from his group. Other groups had essentially the same jobs (although we all worked on different projects), so it wasn’t that my job function had gone away.

  14. Sunflower*

    I’m asking for a raise. I’m also job searching so that brings up a couple questions

    1. I think asking for vacation time instead of money is going to make more sense for me. What is reasonable time to ask for? (I’m in the US)

    2. Is it wrong to ask for a raise and then leave right after you get it? Honestly, nothing could keep me a this job and I’m out the door eventually whether I get a raise or not.

    3. Do I have to give them the number I want right off the bat? Or can/should I wait to see if they ask me or just come up with one on their own.

      1. Apollo Warbucks*

        I’ll second that, I turned down a raise before leaving my last job, I told my old boss to put it back in his budget and reallocate to the rest of the team before he lost them too.

        1. The Cosmic Avenger*

          I agree, this isn’t “I’m starting grad school in a month”, this sounds more like “I’m scanning the want ads and applying for other jobs”, which could mean it’ll be six months or a year or more before they move on. Although Sunflower did say “and then leave right after you get it”, but then used “eventually” in the next sentence.

          Can you clarify, Sunflower?

          To me, actively looking to move on means your plans are not set in stone, and besides, you might even wind up staying there if things somehow improve.

          1. Sunflower*

            I’m actively looking for new jobs but don’t have anything even remotely lined up.

            I would need a 50% pay raise to stay and that just isn’t going to happen. As soon as I find a new job I want, I’m leaving but who knows how long that will take.

    2. HR Manager*

      1. Depends on what you get. I consider vacation time as more inflexible; outside of the occasional comp time, I think vacation time should fall per policy. If you think your organization is more flexible, start off with asking for an additional week, and go from there. I don’t find huge variations in vacation time in the US. Most private companies offer 2-4 weeks (depending on PTO vs vacation vs sick time). Don’t believe all the hype with unlimited vacation time – most companies do not do this.

      2. Yes it is. You’re asking for a raise would naturally present itself as comp being the huge detractor from your satisfaction with your job. If you leave anyway, then you haven’t been honest. You will be burning a bridge there and with your boss (especially if your boss goes out of the way to bat for you, only for your to throw this away).

      3. If they were smart, they would ask you what you think is appropriate. I don’t know if they will, but be prepared. Do some research first, because if you go in there with a nonsensical number (i.e., market rate is 50k, but you ask for 75k), it will make your argument look weak.

      1. Sunflower*

        I get 10 days vacation now.

        My problem is I could go in and ask for what I think I deserve/market rate and I’d be laughed at(we’re super stingy) so I already know that what they would need to give me to stay, I’m not going to get. So I guess asking for anything isn’t really worth it? I mean, what happens if you ask for a raise and you can’t agree to terms? Is it better to not ask and they not know I’m unhappy and searching?

        1. puddin*

          What amount of salary can make you stay? In your best estimate are they willing to provide you with that? If not, do not bring up the raise and move to a place that meets your needs. I personally would not open negotiations on improving my compensation ($ or bennies) if I knew I would leave anyway.

          If I knew an employee/co-worker who did that the first thing I would think would be WTF did they even ask for if they were on their way out the door?? It would leave a bad taste in my mouth and could effect future references.

          1. Sunflower*

            I would need a 50% pay increase(that would put me on par with the market rate) and that just isn’t going to happen. I also do not have anything lined up- I’m just heavily job searching and will leave once I find something that fits. So there’s the factor of not being sure if I’ll be here another month or 6 months or year(hopefully not)

    3. Camellia*

      Interesting. I hear all the time about asking for more vacation in lieu of money, both for initial negotiations or in situations like this and I have never once heard of anyone getting more vacation. Does this really happen? The companies I know have a fixed policy on vacation days and will not alter that. So I have always wondered about this and if it does happen.

      1. the gold digger*

        Really? I have negotiated vacation on each of my most recent three jobs. It helps that I have been in the workforce for a while and I can say, “I get X days at my current job (or got X days before I was laid off) and this is what I expect now.” It is pretty unreasonable for an employer to expect an experienced hire to go back to just two weeks.

      2. CH*

        I negotiated bumping up to the next level in PTO (an additional 4 days) a year early (year 4 instead of year 5) and they liked the idea so much they extended it to everyone. It may have helped that it was during the year of no raises.

    4. PuppyPetter*

      Huh, unless you have a job lined up and you are ready to hand in your resignation, I don’t see any problem with asking for a raise, getting it, and then leaving in a month or two or three. One thing should not hinge on the other (unless you have said “give me a raise or I’m leaving”).
      As for vaca & other perks… well, last spring I got a “promotion” to a job that was not really something I wanted (it was just presented to me as “your new title…and we’re not really sure what you will be doing but we are promoting your assistant to the job you have now”). I was hesitant about it and in a meeting a few days later (I had asked for it for clarity on the new position {I never got clarity BTW}} and asked about xtra vac time and was told no – I’m at the limit for the company (I’ve been here 8 years, heck, I almost never use up what I have anyway), asked about working from home (I could telecommute and my office is remote from everyone else anyway) and got exploded on about how I have to be in the building, the “raise” I got was negligible and basically nil, and as icing on the cake, we were reorganizing the offices and now I’m even FURTHER away from everyone else!
      And yeah, no one is overly happy.

    5. RG*

      I wouldn’t feel too bad about leaving right after you get a raise or additional benefits. Not to be a Debbie downer, bit what are the odds that you get hired and start a new job all within a month of asking for a raise?

  15. Lurky McLurk*

    Thought I’d share this with you guys:
    Earlier this week my manager sat in on some interviews with another manager, one of the questions asked was “What do you think being part of a team means?” The answer from an internal candidate who was the hiring managers preferred candidate was “Telling jokes and eating chocolate”

    And yes I suspect they will be offered the job!

    2. Lily in NYC*

      This would be a really stupid thing to say if you were interviewing from outside. But I have to assume the internal person knew the managers in question and was being lighthearted. I could see myself saying something joke-y depending on my relationship with the manager.

      1. Lurky McLurk*

        If it was only open to internal candidates then yes maybe but I figure if you’re interviewing for a job that is open to external candidates as well you should treat it like you’re interviewing from outside the organisation and avoid joke-y answers.

        1. Lily in NYC*

          I still think it depends on the relationship between the interviewee and manager. I interviewed for a transfer and the manager and I had been good work friends for 7 years. He would have found it off-putting if I suddenly acted formal with him. It’s a “know your audience” thing. But in most cases it would be a terrible idea.

  16. Adam*

    My office has a group that meets once a month to discuss work environment issues, and at least one representative from every department must be in attendance. There is a suggestion box where staff can submit comments/questions/concerns anonymously to this group for them to discuss and address if they feel necessary.

    Recently a note in the suggestion box declared that the organization should implement “gender neutral” (not sure of exact phrasing) bathroom signs as opposed to what we have now. Currently our bathrooms are marked with the typical blue circles with a white stick figure in the center; the women’s room signaled by the stick figure in a dress. The meeting group is trying to decide what sort of change could be made to be in line with the request. The idea of swapping the pictures for a bold “M” and “W” for men’s and women’s restrooms respectively was floated up, but rejected on the notion that it might not make sense for guests who don’t speak English. They are most definitely NOT moving towards uni-sex bathrooms; they will remain gender separated. But they aren’t sure how to proceed at this point.

    Personally, I don’t have a horse in this race and am not part of the decision making process. So long as I know which bathroom is appropriate for me to use they can put a picture of chili dog on it for all I care. But I am curious if anyone here has encountered this situation and what solution they found. Thoughts?

    1. TNTT*

      Well, the suggestion to change it to “M” and “W” is a little tone deaf to what this person is actually requesting.

      1. fposte*

        I don’t think so–I think the person is phrasing her request badly. I think she wants the signs to avoid the traditionally feminine image, not the bathrooms to become gender neutral.

        1. Adam*

          I think avoiding the feminine image is the writer’s intent, but how do you do that visually? Universal male and female signs? Male being the circle with the arrow sticking out of it?

        2. Kelly L.*

          Yeah, it’s important to figure out which one she wants.

          If she wants the signs to not have the dress lady, sure, just put the words Men and Women instead. The language issue is real, but it’s also a pair of words you tend to learn pretty quickly in a new language, just because it’s so immediately useful.

          If she wants unisex bathrooms, and the company isn’t willing to do it, then there’s no reason to change the signs.

          It’s not really possible to have gender-segregated bathrooms without saying which is which.

    2. Kelly L.*

      Wait, so they want the signs to be gender neutral, but the bathrooms to not be unisex? That doesn’t make a lot of sense–the M and W will indicate gender just as surely as the pants dude and the dress lady. And if the bathrooms aren’t going to be unisex, then you need to indicate gender somehow, or else people won’t know which one to use. Is it that the skirt is supposed to be sexist? Maybe, but those two icons are pretty universal and pretty much everybody knows what they mean.

      It makes little enough sense that I think, and correct me if I’m wrong, that the suggester actually is asking for unisex bathrooms. If the office isn’t going to go to that, then i’d say leave the icons.

      1. Adam*

        This is the thing that is confusing people I think. The bathrooms are going to remain gender separate, and since I didn’t read the note I can’t be certain if that’s what the anonymous person wanted or if they wanted something less sexist then a stick figure in a dress to denote “female”. I can understand the latter, but am kind of at a loss as to what they could put up that doesn’t make that distinction via images. Perhaps the universal “male” and “female” signs?

        https://cdn.tutsplus.com/vector/uploads/2013/10/symbols-017.jpg

          1. fposte*

            It falls into my “vaguely, but not in a way I can really bring myself to care about” area. I also think that the longer it’s in use the more abstract it becomes.

          2. Clever Name*

            I’m mildly annoyed by the idea that woman=dress, but it’s darn near a universal sign for which bathroom is which. I remember my first day in Germany and I went to use the restroom in a restaurant. The doors were labeled in German. I hadn’t thought to memorize the words for men and women, so I was briefly flummoxed. It would have been nicer if they had the dress lady and pants man so I was certain which was which.

      2. Snork Maiden*

        I agree with Kelly here, gender neutral means unisex bathrooms, and the suggestions means to make the bathrooms unisex, not just the signs. Especially if the bathrooms in question are just single ones with a locking door, not stalls. IMHO it’s more inclusive and sensible to just label those as unisex anyways.

        1. Kelly L.*

          At one of my old workplaces, they became functionally unisex anyway. Two employee restrooms, single stall, one theoretically men’s and the other women’s, but everybody just used the wrong one if they were in a hurry and the other was in use.

        2. Persephone Mulberry*

          This is off topic, but I know someone who uses that exact same screen name referring to that exact character. She is always despairing that no one else knows who the Snork Maiden is…and yet I’m 99% sure you and she are not the same person. I should let her know that she’s not alone, LOL.

      3. kozinskey*

        I think the person is asking for unisex bathrooms and the committee is confused. I don’t see how changing pictures to letters makes any difference — you’re still saying men go to one bathroom and women go to another, which can leave out trans people or people who don’t identify as either a man or a woman.

        1. Squirrel!*

          Trans people still identify as male or female though, so using that group as an example doesn’t make sense here. Either they are fully-transitioned or on their way to transitioning (or even “blending” in the sense they’re dressing as “the part” but have no done anything in the way of medical transitioning), or they are in the closet, so to speak, and will use the bathroom intended for their biological sex. Trans people don’t need to be othered any more than they already are. And people who don’t identify their gender as male or female can still identify their biological sex and use the appropriate bathroom. Not everything in life has to become a SJW issue.

          1. Kelly L.*

            I’ve heard calls for single-stall unisex bathrooms for trans people, actually, not because they don’t know which gender they identify as, but to protect them from being beaten up in the bathroom (or worse) because other people think they’re in the wrong one.

            1. kozinskey*

              Yes, this is what I was getting at. Even if a person knows which bathroom they’d like to use, that can differ from what society expects of them, and that difference can be a safety hazard.

    3. matcha123*

      I think that the figures are the most universally recognized as meaning YOU CAN GO TINKLES HERE!

      Are the bathrooms ones that are separated by gender because they have multiple stalls? Or, are they just one large room with a toilet?

      I guess a graphic of a toilet might suffice? In East Asia there are symbols like that on the toilet stalls that show whether the toilet is a Western one or a squat one.

      1. Kelly L.*

        I’ve probably mentioned this before, but I used to go to a theater where the unisex bathroom had a “Men” sign, a “Women” sign, and a “Robots” sign, complete with an icon for all of them.

      2. Adam*

        All the separate bathroom have multiple stalls (plus urinals for the dudes), so they’re community bathrooms but separate genders. The only single-occupancy rooms are the large family/disability bathrooms.

        A toilet could work, but how would you indicate which gender it’s designated for?

        1. Treena Kravm*

          I sincerely doubt that the anonymous person wants just the signs changed, because that really makes no sense. If I were you, I would use this as an opportunity to really advocate turning the large family bathroom(s) into gender-neutral bathrooms (which is what they are anyways), and add signs onto the gendered bathrooms directing people to the gender-neutral ones.

          You can say something like, “After getting the suggestion about the bathrooms, I did a little research. From what I’ve read, it would be a good idea to use one of the family restrooms as a gender neutral restroom, and then create signs that would direct people to that bathroom so they don’t have to ask anyone. I think this would be a step in the right direction so we can be more inclusive of transgender people.”

          1. fposte*

            There are people who really are offended by the stylized signs, though, so I wouldn’t rule that out.

        2. Sharon*

          “A toilet could work, but how would you indicate which gender it’s designated for?”

          That’s easy: seat up or seat down. :-D

          Seriously, I think this is one of those rare requests that are maybe not worth wasting the committee’s time on. Some people ask for such trivial things. (I’m female, a life long career woman and closer to feminist than traditionalist and I think this is silly.)

      3. LisaS*

        I remember going to a restaurant somewhere in the upper midwest with my folks, and my mother got up to go to the bathroom and came back 30 sec later with an annoyed look on her face. My dad asked her what was wrong & she said, “I don’t know which one to use – they’ve just got pictures of dogs on the doors.”

        My dad gets up to looks and comes back laughing. “Those are pointers and setters,” was all he said, and it took Mom a minute but to give her (Manhattan born & bred) credit, she started laughing too…

        1. Anonsie*

          A now-closed lounge I used to really like had these metal sculptures all across the bathroom doors. One was a rooster and one was a cat. Because they covered the whole door you had to kind of stand back and look at them both for a minute before you’d get it.

        2. Natalie*

          Ugh, I hate it when places do this. I need to pee – quit being cute and tell me which tiny room I’m supposed to use.

      4. Jennifer*

        Could be worse, I went to a Lazy Dog restaurant and they have “Pointer” and “Setter.”

        An old Lewis Grizzard joke actually came true there….

      2. Treena Kravm*

        This. What I’ve seen work best when the main bathrooms can’t be gender-neutral (2 rooms with multiple stalls) is adding or using another single-person bathroom (a room with one toilet and a sink inside) and making that the gender neutral bathroom. Then adding signs to the men’s/women’s restroom door that a gender neutral bathroom is located X.

        For pictures that indicate gender-neutrality, typically, it’s a figure that’s half “man” (in pants) and half “woman” (in a skirt). Or one of the half/half figures, along with a men figure, and a woman figure.

      3. Anonsie*

        Yeah I… There’s no way to have separate bathrooms without signs designating which is which.

        I’m all on board with bathrooms being unisex and not splitting them up, but if you feel the need to split them up, you’re gonna have to mark them somehow.

      4. Iro*

        Well there are some signs that are more gender neutral than others. Personally I’ve always found the dress thing annoying. I’m a woman, but I never wear dresses. However there are some “business” style bathroom signs that are very awkard. The woman is in a weird pseudo-sexual pose holding a briefcase. The male sign has the man casually slumping his jacket over his back … it’s just weird.

    5. Sadsack*

      I wonder what the person who suggested had in mind. If the bathrooms are going to remain segregated based on gender, then why change the signage? I am guessing it is due to the fact that the stick-woman is wearing a dress, but I can’t think of any other way to indicate women vs. men. Our bathrooms at work have signs for “Ladies’ Room” and Men’s Room.” I imagine that most people whose first language isn’t English would learn that pretty quickly.

    6. Elizabeth the Ginger*

      I assume these are multi-stall bathrooms. If they’re single-person bathrooms, IMO it would really make the most sense to make them unisex…

      Lately I’ve seen a lot of triangle-for-men’s, circle-for-women’s signs. Often they have a stick figure on them, but you can get them without:
      women’s with figure: http://www.adasigndepot.com/title24-womens-restroom-door-sign-female-pictogram.html
      women’s without figure: http://www.adasigndepot.com/title-24-womens-restroom-door-sign-blank-circle.html
      men’s with figure: http://www.adasigndepot.com/title24-mens-restroom-door-sign-male-pictogram.html
      men’s without figure: http://www.adasigndepot.com/title-24-mens-restroom-door-sign-blank-triangle.html

      The triangle and the circle probably aren’t well-recognized enough yet to stand on their own, though, so I’d add a sign that said “Men” and “Women” in English and whatever other languages are common where you are, assuming it’s a small number of common languages. (If you’re working in the UN, or something, then the stick figures might be the most practical even if they’re relying on an outdated stereotype…)

    7. fposte*

      I don’t think “gender neutral” is the phrase they’re looking for–I was really confused by the notion that the bathrooms weren’t gender neutral but they wanted the signs to be.

      I think that your choices are either going with language or a stylized indication of gender. If you’ve rejected language, you’ve got stylized indication of gender left. I don’t think alternatives are going to change the basic problem. (Honestly, at this point I think the skirt lady is pretty much a pictogram rather than an illustration–her meaning is mostly semantic.)

      1. ExceptionToTheRule*

        And I can think of so many gender pictograms that would be WAY worse than pants man & skirt lady.

          2. puddin*

            Female: O’Keef – esque flower images mural
            Male: mural of towers and skyscrapers i.e. eiffel, chrysler blding

        3. nep*

          Oh, yes. That is sexist. I don’t have an issue with dress-lady symbol for the women’s restroom but yes — pants-man can use the changing table indeed.

        4. Elizabeth the Ginger*

          Pants-Man sounds like a great superhero.

          “The everyday hero: PANTS-MAN! He changes diapers! He avoids slippery floors! He uses crosswalks!”

    8. Robyn*

      It’s not possible to be gender neutral and not unisex.

      So the answer is “No. We can’t do that as we are not willing to be unisex.”

    9. Sunflower*

      My first thought is I’m pretty positive this person wants unisex bathrooms in which I’d suggest seeing if the building can install a separate single stall, unisex bathroom.

      However, now re-reading it, it seems like the person finds the signs to be sexist in some way? Because the woman is wearing a dress? In that case, I think the person should get over it.

      This reminds me of when I got to theme restaurants and the bathrooms always have something to go with the theme of the restaurant on the door and I get very nervous I’m going to walk into the wrong one.

      1. Kelly L.*

        I remember my first trip to an authentic Mexican restaurant. There was a “Senores” and a “Senoras.” I was like 10 and didn’t know any Spanish yet. I think I ended up figuring it out by other art on the door–a painting of a man and one of a woman, or something like that. I wonder if this is why using Hombres and Damas/Mujeres seems to be more common.

        1. Kelly L.*

          (Though that still doesn’t help if you don’t know the words–but at least they don’t look alike.)

        2. Elysian*

          I was wandering around for a while at a place in DC that label their bathrooms “Teddy” and “Alice” (for Teddy Roosevelt and his daughter, Alice Roosevelt Longworth). I couldn’t even figure out they were bathrooms for a while, much less which was for me. I think I eventually had to ask someone (drinks had also been consumed at that point).

            1. Elysian*

              That was the first I’d heard of her! They had painted the bathroom with a bunch of quotes from her, and while I was peeing I was thinking “Man I have to Google this woman, she seems amazing.” I did, and she totally was.

          2. Former Foggy Resident*

            Was reading through these comments and thinking of that same bathroom – good place, Teddy’s. But goodness, I like witty jokes but bar bathrooms are not the best place for them. Very confusing after a few drinks.

    10. AnonToday*

      “M” and “W” or “Men’s” and “Women’s” might be the way to go. I imagine that most people who have been in the US for more than a few days have figured out the important words to find the correct bathrooms!

      I don’t think that the universal symbols is a good idea. They aren’t a common thing to see. Some people might not know what they are and some people might recognize them generally but forget which means male and which means female.

      If denying the request an option? I feel like either of these has the effect of confusing more people than the current signs are bothering.

      1. Kelly L.*

        Yes, and it sounds like there’s already a single-stall family restroom, so it can be done there without building anything else.

    12. Mockingjay*

      Does every suggestion have to be implemented? Can you say, “thanks for the idea, but what we have seems to be working”?

      The stick figures are used world-wide. They are effective because they are not language-based – no translation needed. I lived overseas for 9 years and traveled extensively. I never had to worry about finding the bathroom.

    13. Lily in NYC*

      Why change it at all? Just because one person has an issue doesn’t mean that you need to do anything about it if it doesn’t make sense. Random aside: We have an “anonymous” suggestion box, with a surveillance camera pointing directly at the stupid thing. And then HR complains that no one ever uses it.

      1. Adam*

        I wish. It’s not really a priority, but it is more of a “let’s focus on something somewhat minor in the scope of the organization rather than seriously look at how goofy our structure has gotten these days”.

        1. fposte*

          Yes, this sounds like a classic Bike Sheds effect situation. I’m with those upthread thinking the appropriate response was “The signs will stay the same to avoid language problems. Next?”

    15. Student*

      Simple label options – just a solid color plate with words on it:
      Gentlemen and Ladies
      Men’s Restroom and Women’s Restroom

      If you have a lot of non-English folks who will be using your bathrooms, you can either:
      Stick with a clear image – you can go with a different picture than the standard, but it’ll still be clearly “feminine and masculine” somehow.
      Translate the words into the other relevant language(s). Works best if you only have to cover 2 languages to accommodate your user base.

    16. Gene*

      There’s a reason that Universal Symbols are, you know, Universal. IMO, this suggestion gets stamped DENIED.

      And there may be a regulation (beyond ADA, which requires raised symbols and Braille) in your jurisdiction that requires Universal Symbols.

      Assuming the requester is female, her argument may be “not all women wear dresses”; well, not all men wear pants.

    17. PuppyPetter*

      If they are still staying M/F but without the little “sexist” pictures (really? silly little pictures are the problem here? wow.) they could just label them “Use if your parts dangle” and “Use if your parts are safely inside your body”.

      1. Elizabeth the Ginger*

        I know you’re in jest, but IMO, that kind of sign would be more problematic, as it suggests that transmen aren’t really men and transwomen aren’t really women unless they’ve had major surgery. The standard symbols are based on gender stereotypes as well, but to me they seem more innocuous because they are the standard. And, in a way, because they’re so much more obviously false/dated – I mean, walk into any women’s room and you’ll see lots of people wearing pants!

        1. PuppyPetter*

          But it’s not using any gender to define who uses what. If “your parts dangle” doesn’t mean you identify as one gender or the other, it simply means you have “dangling parts”.
          Your DNA decided your sex, your sex organs decide where you pee; it has nothing to do with whether you think you are male or female or gay or straight or androgynous or any factor other than your physical appearance.

          1. Kelly L.*

            Your DNA decided your sex, your sex organs decide where you pee; it has nothing to do with whether you think you are male or female or gay or straight or androgynous or any factor other than your physical appearance.

            I strongly disagree with this.

  17. Golden Yeti*

    It’s my bday soon, and I’m *really* hoping the rest of the office isn’t recruited to sing and make a big awkward deal. (Yes, this has happened in the past, at the command of management…)

      1. Mimmy*

        My husband sometimes does that. For his birthday earlier in the month, he took off and we spent the afternoon in NYC.

      2. Hlyssande*

        That’s what I’m doing on Monday for that exact purpose.

        I expect that there will be a signed card on my desk when I get back, but nothing embarrassing.

        (also it means I get the day to bond with my new KITTY)

      3. Carrie in Scotland*

        I do this!

        Everybody should get it as part of their annual leave entitlement…if only I ruled the world :)

    2. Audiophile*

      My birthday is next week and I’ve told as few people as possible. I hate having people sing to me.
      It happened once in junior high because I stupidly told the piano teacher it was my birthday. And she made the class sing, plus at one point one of my classmates asked “Who’s audiophile?”

      1. Wonderlander*

        Ew, what a crappy classmate. :( I can relate – when I turned 18 in highschool, my mother put signs around the senior’s parking lot that said “Happy 18th Birthday Wonderlander!” In first period, a classmate that sat 2 rows over for me said to someone nearby, “Did you see all those signs in the parking lot this morning? Who’s Wonderlander?” MORT.I.FIED.

    3. Lia*

      We recently ended our office birthday celebrations, and there have been zero complaints. Turns out that no one liked them! The reason they ended wasn’t due to that, though — it was due to a senior leader walking into one and thinking all of us were slacking off, despite evidence of a cake on the conference table. Boss got concerned about “image” and declared no more birthdays.

      1. Hlyssande*

        We have a quarterly birthday/anniversary thing.

        It’s more of a dessert/fruit/snack deal rather than cake these days, but I think everyone in the office likes a chance to step away from their desk for a midmorning or midafternoon snack. No pressure and you don’t have to go if you don’t want to (but free snacks! Good fruit/berries, cookies, etc!).

    4. Alistair*

      Took a while, but I’ve trained my office to not even recognize my birthday. I love it! Forget cake and bad singing. Hell, half of my birthdays I’ve been out in the field, usually in another state, those are the best.

      Happy Birthday drags so easily. If a group singing it slows down at all it turns into a complete dirge.

      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        Here’s the song I like to sing. (To the tune of March Slav)

        Happy Birthday.
        Happy Birthday.
        Gloom and sorrow fill the air.
        People dying everywhere.
        Happy Birthday.

        Happy Birthday.
        Happy Birthday.
        Now you’ve reached the age you are.
        Your demise can not be far.
        Happy Birthday.

    5. Beancounter in Texas*

      Unless you tell your coworkers your birth date, nobody should be using that information from your file without your permission.

      1. Golden Yeti*

        Oh, I wish.

        My supervisor used to do HR, too, and that was one of the questions asked in an interview (I was asked this, too). Why? Because she believes in numerology.

        All the employees birthdays are posted in her office. Last night, I even went on Facebook and adjusted my settings so that hopefully coworkers wouldn’t have my birthday reminder come up on their Facebook. I did it in hopes that without the extra reminder, maybe it would be forgotten.

    6. Elizabeth West*

      Guh. That would be embarrassing!
      Mine is a month after I go abroad again so I won’t have any PTO, likely. If I have to work that day, I hope somebody at least brings cookies. Or maybe I’ll make a cake.

    7. Golden Yeti*

      Yeah…I thought about taking the day off, but with our system of vacation days, it could hurt me in the long run (still job hunting, after all). So I’m taking a late lunch instead.

      For me, it’s not the singing itself that’s awkward, it’s being sung to publicly. Especially if it’s by people I don’t know or wouldn’t really consider friends or family. Seems kind of fake…sort of in a similar category as getting tons of “Happy Birthday” posts on Facebook from people you haven’t communicated with in years. I realize people mean well, but it’s almost become more of a social convention than a genuine sentiment. Like “How are you?” when greeting someone. The answer received will usually be some variation of “Fine,” even if things are far from fine. Also, usually the asker isn’t going to listen for a real answer anyway–the question is just perfunctory.

      Maybe I’m just old and grumpy. :) But I think about these things.

    8. HR Manager*

      This is why I am so happy to be born on a holiday so I never ever have to be in the office for something like this.

    9. kristinemc*

      my birthday is Sunday, but my office manager wanted everyone to go out to lunch today. This normally turns into a two hour affair, & I’m on deadline (but I’m the only one in the office who is), so I asked if we could reschedule.

      Major awkwardness – I should have just kept quiet. Sigh.

    10. Golden Yeti*

      Dammit.

      I was working at my desk, and couldn’t escape.

      They all snuck up on me, with a candle in a slice of cheesecake, and a card. And singing. I just flatly said, “No.” Of course this did not stop them. I’ll take the cake, but I really could’ve done without the singing (and hug/kiss)…

      Good intentions, but so awkward.

      1. Persephone Mulberry*

        Cake? Woo!
        Singing? Eh.
        Hugs?! Cringe.
        Kisses?!?!?!?!?!? GAAAAAAAAH NOOOOOO. That’s super weird, unless you work for your mom.

    11. CH*

      It is my birthday today and all I’ve had to submit to is a flashy mylar banner across my door and everyone who goes by saying “Happy Birthday.” Luckily I finished my big project yesterday so I am not growling at anyone today.

  18. Night Cheese*

    Just a follow up to the comment I posted in last week’s’ thread: I got the job offer and they are going to pay for my conference travel. Thanks to everyone who provided sage advice!

      1. Night Cheese*

        I said that my current employer had already made arrangements. I also outlined the importance of the event and how it would be a good return on investment for the potential employer (how it would enhance my ability to do x, y, and z). They agreed to pay for my attendance during the offer call. Phew!

    4. periwinkle*

      Congrats on the new job! Dress in layers for the conference, as they’re always held in locations with goofy climate control systems.

  19. WednesdaysMisfit*

    Does anyone out there have a degree (preferably masters) in OSHA/occupational safety or a related field?

    I’m thinking of applying for a graduate program in my area in thus field. My background is very different (BA in communication, have worked in marketing for the last several years). I have several reasons for wanting to make a career change, including that my current field is over saturated, the pay isn’t great, and I just plain don’t like sitting at a desk for 9 hours a day.

    1. Snork Maiden*

      Also thinking of getting an OHSA certification/2 year thing from the technical college here, so I’m interested in any replies to your query as well.

    2. Phyllis*

      I honestly didn’t know you could get a Master’s in Risk Management, but a quick Google tells me that’s so. Risk management is one of my job duties, and my training has been mostly in achieving the OSHA 10- and 30-hour certifications as well as working on my Associates in Risk Management through The Institutes (passed the first part in November of last year, Yay!). I would suggest seeing if there is a risk management professional association in your state (one national group is PRIMA-public risk management) and finding out from them what degrees/trainings are most in demand for this type of work.

      It is fascinating work. I enjoy it. I’m all about processes and checklists.

    3. AnotherFed*

      What do you want to do with it? There are two distinct paths for this sort of work that I have run into, and the degree programs will vary based on that.

      An occupational safety or industrial hygiene degree is more common for compliance work. This is everything from making sure offices comply with basic safety rules to manufacturing facilities including all of the necessary guarding and warnings for machinery and hazardous materials. Aircraft airworthiness/flight clearances and aviation safety, nuclear power regulations, and FDA approvals all have significant compliance portions to them, but may be harder to change careers into without a science or engineering background. There is still some room for innovation, but the OSHA regulations spell out things like exactly how big, what colors, what symbols, and the placement of the warning sticker for exposed electricity and don’t leave much wiggle room.

      If you want to be more involved in assessing safety risk and designing it out through process or product improvements on a larger scale, like an industrial site’s process and transport system for pumping a hazardous chemical throughout the facility or a drilling operation on an oil rig, a degree in risk assessment, system safety, or systems engineering is a better choice. My degree is the latter, which matches what I do, so I admit I have the bias that I think the compliance based work is fairly boring.

    4. Anx*

      I have a B.S. in biological sciences and have considered going for Industrial Hygiene. I had a health inspection license but never found a job opening in the public sector and looked into EHS, but I didn’t have any experience working in industry so I decided against it.

  20. Cruciatus*

    Well, after reading about asking for a raise earlier in the week I asked my boss about it. I know if it were up to him I’d get all the money but, unfortunately, it’s not. When I went from one position to another at the same company I was given the lowest of the new pay grade (which was higher than my then-current pay). Is that considered a “raise?” I feel like, no. They HAD to pay me more in that position (though it’s the same as outsiders who are hired). Anyway, so my boss is going to pick his moment to ask and it might be months. This might sound ridiculous to others, or like he’s stalling, but the place we work is dysfunctional and runs on the whims of the provost/president. He’s thinking he will bring me up (positively) over the course of a month or so during his weekly meetings, then ask for the raise. The woman before me got a raise but through stalling it ended up taking over 2 years! I don’t think I’ll be here 2 years from now, but I feel good that I just asked. Though now I will probably start getting calls from all the places I’ve applied and he’ll risk his neck asking all for nothing (because this is how life usually works for me!) But I feel good that I asked. (When I started and didn’t yet know the levels of dysfunction, I asked the provost during our one-on-one interview for $10 instead of $8 an hour and she told me “No. But you’ll have free insurance so it’s like getting $10.” No, no it wasn’t.)

    1. Iro*

      Unfortunately it is VERY common to be put at the bottom of the pay grade if you get promoted. I was once promoted to a role two pay grades above mine with a 12% pay raise. Sounds awesome right? Well during “negotiations” I tried to get a better rate, since I knew what they were offerering me was the bottom of the pay grade and about 60% (yes 60%) less than the median pay.

      Well my boss was sympathetic, but flat out told me that he had alreday argued with HR to try and get me a better offer and that after a ton of pushing they not only refused to allow him to offer me above the minimum (the policy was a very rigid 3% raise or the bottom of the pay grade which ever is greater) that they then started to push him to hire me into a Junior role that was also open at the time. He put his foot down and insisted on hiring me into the senior role, but he did not get to offer me above the minimum.

  21. Moonpie*

    Sometime back there was comment discussion on what surprised you about the working world once you entered it. I’ve recently moved into a managerial position with more responsibility than my last role and I’ve been thinking on a similar line lately… what, if anything, surprised you about moving up into management?

    1. Sandy*

      How much time it soaks up. Interpersonal conflicts between various staff members, HR hiring processes, performance reviews, follow up, etc. can easily take up a whole day if you aren’t *very* careful and nothing else gets done.

      1. WanderingAnon*

        +1000. The amount of overhead it takes to move a team along.

        And how, in many situations, you have influence but little or no control.

    2. Cath in Canada*

      This is a really interesting topic – I’d like to move into a managerial position sometime in the next few years, and would be very interested to read more responses. Alison, any chance of making this a separate “ask the readers” thread sometime?

    3. Future Analyst*

      How long it takes to get adequately build a case to show that someone isn’t doing their job. I could peg this situation 2-3 days in, but it will likely be months (if not longer) to properly showcase that a) said person isn’t doing their job well (or at all, some days), and b) I’ve tried motivating him/giving him better ways of doing things/etc. It’s an enormous time suck and can completely take over your working hours. I generally understand/appreciate that employers who don’t want to fire people willy nilly, but this individual has figured out how to play the system, down to a science.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        One thing to note is that that’s very job-dependent. Most places I’ve worked would let you take action very quickly. Just depends on the employer. (I’d also advocate for managers not taking management jobs at places that operate the way you describe. I’m not going to work somewhere where I’m on the hook for my team getting results, but I’m not allowed to have full control over the makeup of my team.)

    4. Moonpie*

      Thank you for the interesting responses! I think for me it’s the awareness of how much my decisions impact other people. All work does this to some degree, but in my previous role I had a co-manager so we each supervised half the team, but while our director took our input, she still enjoyed/chose to handle a lot of the employee development details herself. Now I have more freedom and more responsibility with my team. I’m enjoying it, but I’m aware of the constant balance between the needs of the company and the needs of the humans I’m leading with lives and families and strengths and weaknesses of their own.

    5. Graciosa*

      One good surprise is how seriously my company takes personnel development (reviews, recognition, salary planning, development plans, succession planning – all of it). As an individual contributor, I had no idea that literally *days* went into preparing for the annual performance review (and raise) discussion that was only scheduled for an hour. There are a lot of calibration discussions at multiple levels – how do we compare Jane’s performance on Team A to Bob’s performance on Team 1 and make sure we’re treating everyone fairly? What performance level really exceeds expectations? How should we assess a Junior Teapot Developer who was doing a great job and was just promoted to Senior Teapot Developer (where she is a newbie competing against higher level performers)?

      This is Very Serious at my employer. It is a Big Deal. I like that.

      The flip side of the same coin is that I didn’t know how much mental and emotional energy I would invest in managing my employees. This is totally separate from performance reviews – I just spend enormous amounts of time thinking about the members of my team. What would be some good development opportunities for Chris? How can I encourage Tim to speak up in meetings more? How can I help Jamal improve his email communication to executives? What else can I try to address Sue’s performance issue?

      Doing this well is consuming – I didn’t realize how consuming.

      One final surprise when I first made the switch – I was surprised that my employees could still respect me on the job if I unbent a little. I suffered from imposter syndrome when I started and reacted by being very formal and poker faced to conceal how unprepared I felt. My team and I both survived it, but it was not one of my finer moments (okay, months).

      I’m glad I figured out that I can manage a team without worrying about anyone finding out that I am not-so-secretly a very fallible, quirky human being and not Super Manager!

    6. AnotherFed*

      The amazing creativity in excuses (or bizarre truthful situations) for not coming in to work. So far I have had:
      -decided to get married today because it was Elvis’ birthday
      -toddler drew all over employee with sharpies and can’t get the ink off
      -got sprayed by a rabid skunk
      -child brought home stray animal, turned out to be a bobcat. Child needs stitches.

  22. So and So*

    I’m probably going to resign soon as I am expecting a baby. All the advice I can find suggests that I wait until maternity leave begins to resign (I suppose in case I change my mind??) Would it be better for me to wait and have the option of returning to work or to resign sooner?

    Things that effect this decision: childcare costs will be basically half my salary, my strange and inflexible work hours already severely limit the time I can spend with family and friends, and my job is not anything that will result in a career.

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      Part of the answer depends on your relationship with your boss. If it’s a solid and safe one, then given them the heads up with plenty of time to keep operations smooth is the right thing to do. If it’s not, then I would wait until closer to your last day in the office.

      Ultimately, I wouldn’t do anything that would burn any bridges you might want to cross in the future.

    2. JC*

      I personally would err on the side of telling them earlier, if you have a reasonable relationship with your manager and don’t think there will be bad repercussions to you while you’re still there to telling (e.g., being pushed out early). If you ever want to re-enter the workforce in the future, and especially if you want to leave the door open to working for this particular employer in the future, it would be good to have not burned those bridges. But, I also do see that you say that your job isn’t one that would lead to a career, so it might not really matter for you if those bridges are burned.

      And congratulations!

      1. Treena Kravm*

        Earlier, definitely. You probably don’t want to burn bridges–any career change you end up with, you’ll still probably want to list this job on your resume, or use your manager as a reference. Your decision is based on things like money and schedules, and not on a feeling that you’ll either want to be with the baby or continue working (which can and does change for people), so I’d say it’s safer for you to assume you won’t change your mind (but that’s up to you how comfortable you are that you won’t change your mind)

    3. MaryMary*

      I would suggest waiting until you’re towards the end of your leave to give your notice. It doesn’t sound like you’re likely to change your mind, but there’s always the chance that your circumstances change so that you have to return to work (i.e. your partner loses their job). If you wait to give notice until your leave is complete, you also continue receiving benefits and pay/disability, if it applies to you.

      If you have a great relationship with your manager, you could give her a heads up that you probably won’t return to work. I know a lot of managers who feel burned when one of their direct reports goes on maternity leave and doesn’t return to work, but honestly, I know enough women who have genuinely changed their mind (both ways – planning to come back and planning not to) that I think it’s acceptable. Anytime an employee goes on long term medical leave, a manager should prepare for the possibility that they might not return.

      1. Future Analyst*

        Yes to this– you never know what your circumstances will look like in 3+ months. I personally think two weeks notice is all you need to provide, since you’re moving to another job (the fact that you won’t be paid monitarily is irrelevant). Depending on what your company/industry looks like, you can either give notice two weeks before you’re supposed to come back, or go back to work and give notice on the first day back (with the understanding that they would likely tell you to leave right away, given that getting ramped up and back down would be silly.)

    4. just laura*

      Do you have paid leave? If so, it would seem silly to sacrifice that and quit now. Also think about medical benefits if you use your health insurance.

      I quit at the end of my maternity leave. It felt awkward but it worked schedule-wise in my industry (higher ed). I also carried the benefits for my family and wanted to be sure delivery and any complications were covered first. I also wanted a little bit of an out in case I changed my mind and wanted to go back to work (I didn’t).

    5. HR Manager*

      HR should touch base with your regarding maternity leave practice and benefits. Find out about how this affects you before you resign. Example: are you, SO and/or baby on your insurance? If you resign before your leave starts, do they make you resign as of the last day you are in the office? This could affect how benefits coverage continues for you. STD, which is how most mom’s get income during a maternity leave, may not apply, if they terminate you before your leave – which means no disability pay during your medical leave. Some work places allow you to apply vacation time to receive pay during unpaid FMLA – is this important to you? Do you accrue vacation time while on FMLA? You could be leaving money on the table if you resign too early.

      My knee-jerk reaction is not to resign before hand.

    6. J.B.*

      Do you have paid leave and will they take it away? Do you use health insurance for your job? Keep any health insurance through the birth of course. If you’re really not going back don’t use unpaid FMLA (then you can be required to pay back health insurance).

      1. so and so*

        I get no paid leave at all and am covered by my husband’s insurance so that doesnt really enter into the equation.

    7. Student*

      Part of the reason they suggest you wait as long as reasonable is because of the risk of complications. I hope you have a happy and healthy pregnancy and delivery! But, if you or the baby develops unexpected complications, it can be very helpful to keep all your options for income and health insurance open.

      There are also all the normal, non-baby life possibilities – if your spouse gets laid off next week, for example, you might genuinely reconsider resigning. Why make the decision any sooner than you need to?

      Try not to be an outright jerk to the employer, try to be realistic about your own limitations (related to childbirth and unrelated to childbirth), and do what’s best for you in your own circumstances.

  23. Audiophile*

    I’m curious if anyone else has seen this. I was applying for a general position yesterday with a company and the application had an asterisk saying I was required to put my SAT score if I only had an undergraduate degree. Considering it’s been 10 years since I graduated high school, and I took the SATs in 03-04, I’d have no way to get them and they wouldn’t even be valid anymore. I certainly don’t remember them, so I ended up putting zero. I’m sure my app will be tossed, for not following directions or something.

    This is by far the strangest thing I’ve come across.

    1. So and So*

      I’m pretty certain you can request your records from the SAT board or even your high school. Ten years isn’t so long ago that there aren’t records available.

      But yes, it’s a ridiculous request that should really have little bearing on the hiring process.

      1. Audiophile*

        You’re right, I never thought about it. It’s $31. I don’t want the job that badly to spend money I don’t really have. And from what I remember my scores were not impressive.

    2. Cherry Scary*

      I’ve only been out of college for a year and I don’t remember my SAT score. (I do remember ACT, but that is such an easier number for me to remember)

    4. matcha123*

      This is my nightmare.
      My SATs were nothing to write home about, and unlike my peers, I didn’t have the money for the prep-courses or the money to take the test multiple times until I got my desired score.

      I’d assumed that getting into and graduating from a university would mean that I would never have to talk about high school grades or university apps again…

      1. Nashira*

        You’d think that, but… not quite. I have two associates degrees and no HS diploma, because my parents believed in… unusual educa choices… and every time I did a job app for clerical positions, HR was so confused and not sure how to handle me. Argh.

      2. Natalie*

        The old SATs pretty much just measure your ability to take tests. That’s what I learned in my test prep course – how to take a test quickly and accurately even if I didn’t know the material. That, and there are cruel people in the world who think 7:00 am is a good time for the SAT and that coffee should be banned from the room.

    5. INTP*

      I’ve only heard of that for recent college graduates, and for positions where they were clearly trying to find Type A employees.

      I wish it was a thing, my success at standardized tests far exceeds my success in real life, hah.

      1. JC*

        As someone who also was better at school than I am at life, I’d love to fill out one of those applications. And yes, I (very sadly) remember what my SAT score from 15 years ago was. (But I do also thing it is a ridiculous and strange thing to ask.)

    6. just laura*

      I think they have changed the scale! When I took it, it was out of 1600, I think. I think it’s out of 2100 now or something, so I would seem even dumber! :0

      1. Ezri*

        When I took them they’d added a third section (I think it was an essay), which bumped the total score up. But when I was applying to school colleges only cared about the original two sections (out of 1600), so I bombed the essay and it didn’t make a bit of difference. :)

        I could be remembering wrong, though… this was around six years ago. I remember that test being an awful Saturday, though.

      2. Audiophile*

        They did change the scale. I think the year I took them was right before they changed again, but I’m not sure.

    7. Lia*

      Um, there have been some adjustments to SAT scaling and calculations in the last 10-20 years — so a score of X in 2003 may or may not be equal to a score of X today.

      Sort of tangential to this — I got a LinkedIn “people you might know” email the other day that included an old high school classmate. I checked out his profile and he has his SAT and ACT scores on there — we graduated more than 20 years ago. He has gone on to a leadership role with a large company where I am sure those scores are irrelevant — I just found it amusing he had them on his profile.

    8. Brett*

      I used to work for ACT. They required your test scores (and I bet College Boards does too). I think the strange part is apparently waiving the requirement if you have a graduate degree?

      The bigger problem with that is that the SAT has been recentered so many times over the last few decades and even changed. Did they require you to give the year you took the test too? (Which would probably reveal your age.)

      My wife scored a 1500 and my brother scored a 1510, which are very mediocre 48th percentile scores today. Except she took the test in 1997 before the switch to the 2400 scale, and he took the test in 1990, before the test was recentered. Her 1997 score would be a 99th percentile 2230 today, and his 1990 score would be a perfect 2400 today!

      Anyway, college boards has an archiving service where you can pull every test you ever took. And normally your high school transcripts have your SAT scores on them too. Sometimes your college transcripts do also, but I think that is less common.

      1. Audiophile*

        I’ve applied for jobs with College Board and it’s never asked for my score.

        I’ve seen jobs ask for GPA, but rarely is it required. I can usually get away with putting “unknown”.

        1. Brett*

          Might depend on the job. I was a question writer at ACT (written question scorers had to submit test scores too).

          1. Audiophile*

            I’d imagine they’d want it for that role or for people looking to teach the prep courses. I know when I worked for TPR, if you wanted to teach one of their prep courses, you needed to provide your score.

    9. LongTimeReader*

      This is a peculiar request because for awhile SAT scores were rated out of 2400 (although i believe they are moving, if they haven’t already, back to the 1600 format). So if two people applying for this job both scored a 1600, but one is out of 1600 and the other out of 2400, then those mean different things.

    10. Felicia*

      That is so ridiculous! Even if it was something I did know, I would not apply because it’s ridiculous.

      Though I actually am in another country where SATs are not a thing, they are only a thing in the US – so I guess people who did not go to high school / college in the US are not allowed to apply?

    11. Elizabeth West*

      This has literally no bearing on whether you can do a job or not, regardless of what degree you have. I’m not and never have understood what they are even FOR. I was just told that I had to take it to get into college.

    14. voluptuousfire*

      I worked in test prep for 5 years and they did change the SAT exam in ’05.

      College Board didn’t require test scores for any of the jobs I applied for with them, but I could see it more along the writing the test or test development.

      If you really needed to, you could get in touch with your high school or college and get an official transcript with your scores on it. (But again, the college transcript may not have the scores on it. It varies by school.)

      I understand though. I applied for a role the other week where they require a 3.2 college GPA. Usually I avoid any listings that include a GPA requirement because being in my mid thirties, I don’t remember my GPA nor do I recall it being anything special. To me that usually indicates they want a recent graduate, which is fine.

    15. PuppyPetter*

      The way the numbers are calculated now are different than how they were calculated when I took them so my number would look weird.
      Unless it’s being scanned into a computer that spits out candidates I wouldn’t worry about it

    16. Malissa*

      Do they know that some colleges don’t require that? I only ever took the ACT. None of the colleges I was looking at even cared about the SAT.

    18. JMW*

      You may find that your SATs are on your college transcript because you needed them to get into the school to begin with. I applied for a masters program and they wanted my GREs. I took the GRE 30 years ago, but the scores were recorded in my transcripts with my undergrad work since I had them sent there in anticipation of a masters at the time. Worth checking!

  24. shep*

    After three years’ tenure being wildly underemployed in JOB1, I spent two months in JOB2 and three months in JOB3 before landing JOB4 (which was a pie-in-the-sky position I’d applied to before I even applied to JOB2). I left on great terms with both JOB2 and JOB3, which I know is both strange and very lucky for me. I know AAM’s usual advice is to leave short-lived positions off of a resume, but I’m concerned about a perceived five-month employment gap. Maybe I should list one and not the other?

    Of course, this is all academic because I’m not planning to move on from my current position for several years, but when the time comes, I wondered how I should approach those positions.

    1. Treena Kravm*

      I would leave it off. 3 years at JOB1 and 2-3 years at JOB4 with a 5 month gap is nothing. 2 and 3 month stints at non-contract jobs won’t give you any advantages, it’ll only put questions in employer’s heads.

    2. cat*

      For my money, if you’re not planning to leave your current position for several years, I would just leave the five month gap on your resume, rather than listing JOB2 and JOB3 (assuming they weren’t designed to be temp – if they were, I’d include them and indicate that they were temporary). To my mind, I don’t think a five-month gap between a 3 year stay at JOB1 and a 3-4 year stay at JOB4 is that big of a deal (once you’ve been in JOB4 for several years, that is).

    3. Sunflower*

      A 5 month employment gap isn’t that long. It would signal more a ‘this person took time off do something’ than anything else.

    4. shep*

      Awesome! Thanks, everyone. I suppose now the only reason I’d list them would be if one of my former supervisors offered to serve as a reference. (JOB2 supervisor was kind enough to do so for JOB4, for example.)

  25. Tiffany Youngblood*

    When should I start applying for jobs?

    I am graduating w/ my Bachelor’s degree on May 16th. I’m moving from Dallas area to Chicago the week of June 8th and would be able to start a new job the following week.

    I occasionally look at job postings, and I’m seeing some that I’m interested in, but I don’t know if 5 months before I know I can start is the time to be applying. I want to work in the nonprofit sector, and I know sometimes the hiring process with them can take a while, so I don’t know how much of a difference that makes. I will be in Chicago for a few days right after graduation to find an apartment, and I’d be available for job interviews then as well.

    1. Treena Kravm*

      Start now. It’ll take you a month or two to get the hang of applying, so start with the ones that you’re interested in, but not “dream” positions. Be upfront about your timeline and when you’re in town/available in your cover letter.

    4. cat*

      Nownownow. When I graduated a thousand years ago, I had my post-graduation job secured by December when I was graduating in May. It made my last semester so much less stressful.

    5. Ezri*

      I’d say start now. When I graduated (last year), employers were looking and interviewing as early as October / November – I had an offer in December, six months before my start date. It does wonders for your stress level. Employers hiring graduating seniors probably anticipate a delayed start (if not, they’re being silly).

      At the very least, it shouldn’t hurt you to start looking now.

    6. Ruth (UK)*

      I’m also going to emphasize that it’s not too soon now!

      I made the mistake of not actively beginning my job search until I actually graduated and it took me 4 years to get my first non-retail job (though I’ve always had a lot of luck getting employed within retail etc so I’ve never actually been totally jobless).

      I tried to tell my brother (few years younger) how important it was for him start job searching early and not make the same mistake I did. Frustratingly, he didn’t listen and has followed directly in my footsteps. He has been working in retail for the past 3 years (and counting).

      It helps that you seem to have a clear idea of the sort of work you want to do. Part of the lack of motivation in me (and my brother) is that we both graduated feeling at a total loss of how to proceed and what sort of jobs we actually wanted to (and would be able to) apply for.

      So.. start now!

      1. Audiophile*

        I can relate to that. I stared searching, somewhat passively, around March – April and by graduation, I still didn’t have a job secured.

        It took me about 5 months to secure a job. I

    7. Anonsie*

      I’m agreeing with start now but ALSO be prepared that a ton of places will ignore you due to your later start date, or even act like they’ve never heard of such a concept when they do a phone screen. This was my experience when I was job hunting my last semester of college and it really irked me. At least half a dozen places called to screen me and were like “you… are applying NOW… for a job in a few months? and you can’t start now because you’re in school? that doesn’t make any sense”

      1. Anonsie*

        Also don’t be surprised if you don’t get hired before you graduate. No one I know managed to pull it off, now that I think of it.

    8. Danielle*

      Start now! As a new grad you’ll make all the application mistakes but I’d recommend the cover letter and resume section on AAM.

  26. SH*

    This is probably a silly question but are sweaters appropriate when you’re a receptionist/admin assistant? I work in a very small office and my bosses were torn on the issue.

    1. Eliza Jane*

      What does your boss wear? The observed rule I’ve most often seen for admins in small companies is “slightly less formal than the executives,” with a lower cap at “nice jeans and something nicer than a T-shirt.”

      If the bosses wear full suits much of the time, I’d say sweaters are probably too informal.

    2. NotMyRealName*

      I would say it completely depends on the sweater. Chunky ethic hand knit? No. Classy twin set as seen on Emily Gilmore? Maybe.

    3. periwinkle*

      Depends on the sweater. I’m a long-time fan of Lands End fine-gauge cotton crewneck sweaters for the dressier side of business-casual attire. They are thin enough to fit nicely under cardigans (matching cardigans available!) or blazers, but substantial enough to look great on their own. Pair the fine-gauge sweaters with tailored pants or skirts, and I think you’ll pass muster in any business casual environment.

      Avoid bulky knits unless the office is casual, though.

      Er, and no fluffy sweaters with embroidered kitties.

    4. Spooky*

      I’ve never in my life heard of anybody who doesn’t like sweaters. I feel like I must be missing something – is it a particularly raunchy type of sweater? Does everyone wear uniforms? Are sweaterVESTS strongly preferred? What exactly is the argument here?

    5. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Reallllly need to know what kind of sweaters we’re talking about. I wear cashmere or merino wool sweaters on a daily basis, practically, and I can’t imagine anyone thinking they’re inappropriate. Are these… turtlenecks? Cardigans? Prints? V-necks? I can’t imagine anything more appropriate for an assistant than, say, a collared shirt and a sweater.

    6. Jazzy Red*

      Sweaters – yes.

      Sweats – no.

      It was kind of sad that our receptionist needed to be told that.

  27. Worker Bee (Germany)*

    Just want to say thank you to Alison and the AAM Community. I am leaving my current employer with my full year bonus which I received by making a case for the good work I ve done the last year. I am positiv it was all due to the great wording from AAM.

  28. Helen*

    Also, just a quick gripe–I know this is a tale as old as time, but on Tuesday I followed up with an employer who I interviewed with before Christmas asking for an update on the timeline/status, and he never responded. So freaking rude!! Just be an adult and tell me I didn’t get it. It’ll take 5 seconds.

    1. De Minimis*

      Yeah I had an interview around the same time, never heard a thing. I assume they’ve moved on. Not bothering to follow up, I’m currently working, and I’m not sure if I’d be interested in the job now anyway.

    2. No to Stella and Dot*

      Welcome to my world. :( I had an internal interview before Christmas, haven’t heard a peep from anyone, so I sent a quick note earlier this week to the recruiter asking where they are in the process. No word yet. I’m trying not to read too much into it, but the last time this happened (with the same recruiter), I never did hear anything back and had to hear through the grapevine that they hired someone else (also an internal hire).

    3. PuppyPetter*

      ummmm from the other side of the coin:
      Holidays (Between holidays, conferences, personal vacas, sickness, I was was physically in my office fewer days than I was out of it in the past 2 months)
      Higher ups not giving okay on hiring
      Depending on how many candidates, 5 seconds to each person can add up (and it takes longer than 5 seconds)
      Maybe the person is no longer there…

      1. Marcy*

        Yes, this. I interviewed for my current employer right after Thanksgiving and wasn’t offered the job until mid January. The holidays really delay things because it isn’t just the hiring manager that is probably taking time off. The hiring manager’s boss has to sign off on it and he or she may also be out and HR would have to sign off and the HR manager may be out. Unless they all took the same days off, a lot of time can go by before the offer is ready.

  29. nyxalinth*

    Well, finally some good news, and boy, I needed it!

    Remember the job I was hired for back in November, but they had trouble setting a start date? Yesterday I was told that I’d finally be starting on the 20th! The hiring manager was very apologetic, letting me know that the holidays had really done a number on them along with other stuff all at once. I told her I’d be happy to start.

    So it had a happy ending after all. It pays a bit more than the previous thing but more importantly, it’s so much closer. Half an hour on the bus as opposed to almost two hours.

    Also, the fact that so far no one looks like a psycho boss is a bonus :D

  30. Rat Racer*

    I have a question about how to deal with a peer who has recently become unresponsive. This individual and I collaborate on proposal work all the time and she is usually really good about responding, but recently, she’s been severely lagging and it’s affecting my ability to meet my own deadlines. I know that she is swamped right now (we are all head’s down working 12-14 hour days at the moment) but I’m concerned that she’s decided to de-prioritize this aspect of the business, and that’s just not OK. What’s the right language to use for someone who is technically a peer, but has been at the company for longer and is someone I generally admire, respect and enjoy working with?

    1. fposte*

      I’d rather do this face to face, if possible, and I’d start light. “Jane, I know we’re all buried these days. Is there something I can do to make it easier for you to turn my stuff around? The recent longer duration has been making it hard for me to meet my deadlines, and I’d like to see if we can find a way to get back to the earlier schedule. What can I do to make that likelier? Would an x-day reminder help, or a different format?” (Obviously plug in whatever makes actual sense in your workplace.)

      Given that you like and work well with her, I imagine that you’d be offering the suggestions sincerely and they’d be taken as such; you might find that just giving her a heads-up broadly and maybe tweaking something procedurally would pick things up again.

      If Jane’s really swamped beyond making this able to happen even after the conversation, that’s a conversation for your manager, I’d say. Not in the “Jane sucks” way, but in the “this workload isn’t tenable and it’s hurting us” way, since it sounds like that’s pretty much the truth.

    2. BSharp*

      Can you ask how you can help? “Hey Jane, how goes? Lately it feels like we’ve all been over-extended. It’d be really helpful if you could give me a clearer idea of when you’ll finish X and Y (OR: if you could do X and Y within a time range of ____). Last week there was because Z was delayed. I understand we’re all swamped, I just want to prevent in the future. Is there anything I can do to make it easier on you?”

    3. YourCdnFriend*

      I’d ask to have an informal chat with her and say something like, “I know you’re swamped but I’m still missing x, y and z from you. I can’t move forward with a, b and c until I have it. Anything I can do to help move this along?”

      Depending on her answer, you could also say, “ok. If it’s not going to happen by x date I’ll need to check in with (boss’ name) on how we should keep this project moving or if we need to re-prioritize.”

      It also should be something you should keep your boss in the loop on. It’s not tattling and don’t be accusatory but just a “hey, I’m struggling with x because I’m waiting on y from Wakeen. He’s swamped, anything else I should be doing to move things forward?”

    4. HR Manager*

      Agreed – do face to face on this occasion, and let her know that you understand she is swamped. Approach this as a “how can I help you” meeting request. What can you do differently to flag these as important so that she can get back to you more easily and in a more timely way so that the bigger deadline is not missed.

    5. Rat Racer*

      Thanks guys – this is all helpful – but a couple of twists to the story. First, we’re all remote, so unless I fly out to all correspondence will have to be by phone or email. That said, I do have a good rapport with this co-worker, she’s one of the people I chat with about life outside of work and we’ve collaborated closely on projects in the past.

      The second is that I’ve already picked up just about as much as I can from “Jane.” Once upon a time, she handled all the proposals on Chocolate Teapots, I took Vanilla Teapots. Now all Teapot proposals come to me; if it’s chocolate, I outline a strategy with my team, then they draft a response and highlight segments that require her input. And that’s where I get the radio silence. Sometimes it’s as simple as me making a highly educated guess about what we would say to a Chocolate client and just wanting to verify with her before it goes out. That’s why I’m so frustrated.

      And yeah, I could go to my manager – or her manager – and let them know that we’re getting bottlenecked and it’s posing serious risks to our ability to capture new business. But that would feel like a betrayal. I think since I can’t fly out to just for a “What’s up” conversation, the best course is to schedule a check-in phone call. Maybe after the dust settles.

      Thanks wise people – I love the advice from this community!

      1. YourCdnFriend*

        A Check in phone call would be good. But I wouldn’t treat talking to the boss about bottlenecks as a betrayal. It’s not a complaint about jane personally, it’s drawing attention to an unworkable prioritizing situation.

        Maybe you’d feel better if you had a brainstorming session with Jane about how to overcome these bottlenecks, then you could go to management together with a “we’ve given this some thought and here are some solutions” or even, “we’ve given this some thought and can’t see any solutions, how should we proceed” convo.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Hmm. Do you HAVE to include Jane in the loop? Is there someone who can take up her role? Can you drill it down to one or two critical parts that she must look at, then have someone else do the rest?

        It almost sounds like she is involved here because there is no one else who can do equivalent work.

  31. Cass in Canada*

    Any suggestions of podcasts or resources I could listen to for career development, particularly as a young professional? I want to be awesome at my job and working with people.

    First open thread post for me! I’m a young professional (2 years out of university) working in forestry who has a long boring winter of data entry and paperwork ahead of me. I find it much easier to complete my work listening to something interesting. I’ve spent the last couple weeks listening to e-lectures on forestry topics to improve my technical knowledge for what I do, but am out of lectures to listen to for the time being. I figure that this would be a great time to work on some of my soft skills (managing contractors, working with difficult colleagues, productivity etc)

    Being relatively inexperienced, I would like to spend my winter months working on learning how to do my job better and communicate more effectively with my coworkers. Topics I am interested include emotional intelligence, communicating effectively, productivity, time management etc. Generally how to become awesome at what I do and someone that is easy to work with as a professional.

    I’d welcome book suggestions that you found useful as well. I have an Audible account and like listening to audio books at work.

    Thanks for the suggestions and your thoughts!

      1. Eliza Jane*

        Also, I really like the audiobook of “Thanks for the Feedback” by Douglas Stone and Sheila Heen, and recommend the book “Your Brain at Work” by David Rock.

    2. JMegan*

      CharityVillage.ca has some good resources. Many of them are clearly intended for the NFP sector, but there are a lot of good general business ones as well.

    3. wonkette*

      There’re a couple of podcasts that I like to listen to on work/how to be more efficient:

      -Slate’s “Working”: interviews with people working in a variety of occupations
      – Money Talking : it discusses business/economic issues. There’re also episodes on how you can be more efficient at work
      – Tim Ferris Show
      – Harvard Business Review’s podcast

    4. Lizabeth*

      Freakonomics, both the podcast and books.

      They’re not business per se BUT excellent for getting you to think critically and outside the box.

      Any of Seth Godin’s books

  32. Sandy*

    I’m really curious to get AAM readers’ take on fathers taking parental leave after the birth of their child.

    Some background: I work for a Canadian company overseas, and our workplace policies follow those in Canada, namely a year’s paid leave after the birth of the child. That year consists of 15 weeks for the mother only, and 35 weeks that can be split between the two parents.

    Most of my friends and colleagues who have had kids have elected to go for a 9 month/3 month split between mom and dad.

    Now that we’ve added to our family, and elected to go with a 5 month/7 month split, our older family members have been up in a tizzy about how this doesn’t make any sense. What if hubby’s workplace replaces him while he’s away? What if they like the temporary replacement better? What if he misses out on important projects? Etc. in short, men shouldn’t take parental leave, and if they do, it should be a small amount, like one month or three months max.

    In my mind, these are all issues faced by women in the workplace when they go on mat leave, so this should be a non-issue. But that’s in my ideal world. In reality, hubby’s workplace is fairly old school and all of the staff members in the entire organization are male. It’s possible that he really will feel the career effects of a longer stint on parental leave.

    How do you perceive male staff members in your organizations who take parental leave? Is there a real or perceived bias against them? Does it divide down along gender lines? Age lines?

    1. AnonToday*

      I am all for paternity leave and would support a male colleague taking it however I could. However, I am biased, because I feel that making long paternity leave the norm is a step toward ending the “What if she gets pregnant?” form of discrimination against women.

        1. Satsuma*

          Me too. As I say below, we are planning to go ahead with this sort of arrangement. My partner works in an office that deliberately avoids hiring late twenties/early thirties women, in case they take maternity leave. I would love to be there when he tells them that he is taking paternity leave :)

          1. AnonToday*

            Oh man (no pun intended). Do you think he’d be willing to secretly record this conversation and let you post it for all of us to enjoy?

    2. LillianMcGee*

      Our culture here is very progressive/liberal and both of our co-EDs have taken parental leave. One male one female (the non-birthgiving mother of baby). The female ED (not ED at the time) had to come back to a different position due to the health of the organization at the time, but male ED’s leave came and went without incident. There have also been 3 employees in the last year (!) who have taken maternity leave. Bottom line is everyone here is very supportive/encouraging of parental leave no matter what relationship you have with the baby. I was even allowed 2 weeks (no advance notice) to go help with my newborn niece after my sister-in-law suffered complications! I suppose it all depends on the culture and priorities of the workplace.

    3. ProductiveDyslexic*

      I don’t have anything helpful to say about how you should handle it, except I’m sorry that you find yourselves at the “front line” of child care gender equality.

      I suppose you have to do a risk assessment: which is more important long-term, your husband’s job prospects (evidence to suggest this is at risk), your job prospects (benefited), your husband’s relationship with your child (benefited), and your child’s future (benefited)?

      For what it’s worth, I suppose there’s an argument to be made that the way you are doing it is more beneficial in the long run. Two parents with slightly reduced salaries, having shared the leave more equally, is a less risky long term plan than having a big disparity.

      1. Sandy*

        In our case, I’m fairly certain that we’re going ahead with it anyways. I have some weird rules surrounding my leave because of my work circumstances, so him deciding to take less time would literally mean leaving (fairly substantial) money on the table.

        That said, I’ve noticed there being a fairly consistent age divide on this issue. Colleagues and friends our age, no problem. Anyone older than about 45- that’s when these attitudes seem to begin rearing their ugly heads.

        There are obviously exceptions, but that seems to be the trend…

    4. Lily in NYC*

      Do what is best for your family and ignore everyone else. I work in the US at a pretty conservative company and all of the high-level (and lower level) men take paternity leave. There is one boss here who seems to have an issue with it but he is an ass about everything so no one pays him any mind.

    5. Satsuma*

      We’re facing the same issue in the UK, where a similar system is being introduced for babies born from April 2015. There is a year of leave which can be taken almost entirely by either parent, or divided between them. We want to go with a 6 month/6 month split. This is unlikely to go down well at my partner’s (all male) workplace, and there will very likely be repercussions, although it is hard to know what they will be. I expect there will be a lot of remarks from friends and family as well. Fortunately, we are in a stable enough position, both in terms of finances and our confidence in being able to find new jobs if necessary, that we are planning to go ahead despite all of this. This is our first child, and for us it is more important to get things off to a good start by truly sharing childcare responsibilities.

    6. esra*

      Canadian here too.

      Most men I know take pat leave (we’re all in our 30s) and no one really bats an eyelid. Honestly I haven’t heard a bad word about it, and I’ve worked everywhere from big, soulless corporate to lefty pinko nonprofit.

    7. HR Manager*

      The US perspective (in my opinion): We as a country are so behind the times even on proper maternity leave, don’t even get me started on paternity leave. Down to a soundbite: it sucks. Many companies at least try to insert some form of paternity leave (or general paternal leave that fathers can take) and it’s often a measly week or two. The rest is FMLA – unpaid 12 weeks off.

      Technically it will be job-protected, if someone pursues FMLA, but I know of many new fathers who don’t use it. They do maybe a week of paternity leave if available, but there is a huge bias against fathers and leave in my opinion. Many will try to take a day here or there, arrange for some work at home days. Despite all our talk about gender equality, this is hardly the truth in our workplace. I know unpaid time off is tough, especially when dad’s likely have the bigger salary so it’s a real financial hit not to have any pay for that time off. So, yes, there is a bias, systematic and perception-wise in the US workplace against dads taking parental leave.

      1. Phyllis*

        Amen to the bias against men taking paternity leave!! My husband was working for GM when our first child was born, and they were the first (only?) company in our area that offered paternity leave. He took one week and was so scorned by his male co-workers that he didn’t do it when our other children were born. Of course this was in the eighties, hopefully things are better now.

    8. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I had 9 weeks of leave saved up when my daughter was born, and I took all of it. But then our company is really good about work/life balance, allowing some people to telework pretty much full time.

      If I were him, I’d probably be OK with resentment/snide remarks/bad thoughts, as long as I felt that my work was valued enough. I’ll bet that if he is the first, he will NOT be the last. That said, I wouldn’t blame him if the two of you decided that the impact on his career wouldn’t be worth it, but considering how much that will affect you, I think your input is important, too.

    9. YourCdnFriend*

      I work in canada too in a fairly conservative industry. I think most people in my company wouldn’t bat an eye at a man taking paternity leave but that’s certainly not the case for the rest of the industry (I’ve heard negative comments on it first hand but not directed to me).

      I think it’s super important for these norms to start swinging. It sucks that you’re on the front lines but I am so grateful people are legitimately looking at this as an option.

      As for your family members being in a tizzy, as long as you and your husband have come to terms with the risks/rewards, smile and nod and ignore or tell them all to step off.

    10. How to underpromise/overdeliver*

      Given your description of his office culture, I think it’s a real possibility that he might suffer for it. I think he should take it, but also spend some time thinking about how he’ll deal with the potential worst-case scenario (how would he respond to snide comments, would he consider leaving the company if he was being subtly penalized in terms of projects or promotions, etc). It sounds like you’re at different companies and not in Canada, so how is he taking the time off work? I’d read up on the legal protections he has as well so that if he ends up having to talk to his boss or HR he’s fully informed.

  33. Treena Kravm*

    How reasonable is it to ask to take all of your accrued vacation time in the last weeks of your employment? It’s clear that this is inappropriate with 2 weeks notice, but what about with 5+ months of notice?

    I’m in the process of resigning from my position this summer. My manager wants there to be overlap and cross training with my replacement, so she wants a resignation date ASAP so she can start the HR paperwork. The reason I want my official resignation date to be later is because I want to keep my insurance coverage for as long as possible. So I’m thinking I finish my work, go on 3 weeks “vacation,” during which I pack up my house, and then “quit” so that while I’m still in the US, I’ll have medical coverage. Once I’m traveling, I’ll have traveler’s medical insurance.

    Side note: there’s no chance of me being pushed out early, so I’m not worried about that at all.

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      Check that you don’t have any HR policies that prevent you from taking leave on your last day/week of employment.

      1. Beancounter in Texas*

        ^^What TotesMaGoats said. When I’ve asked for that & a friend asked for that (from maternity leave though), we each had to work our last day of employment. It could not be a vacation day. (We’re both in Texas, which might have a small bearing.)

    2. Lily in NYC*

      As long as you finish up your work and talk to your boss about it I think it’s ok. But in general I think it’s not a great thing to do in most cases. We still talk (very negatively) about the guy who quit and then took two weeks of vacation (he only gave two weeks notice). He came back in for 5 minutes on his last day – everyone had to scramble to do his work and I got stuck cleaning out his office. He ended up not liking his new job and tried to come back and my boss said this: “F*ck off, you burned the bridge that would bring you back here”.

    3. The IT Manager*

      With the situation you described, totally reasonable. You are not leaving your old Company in a lurch. With the normal 2 weeks notice, it’s unreasonable and defets the purpose of the two weeks notice.

    4. How to underpromise/overdeliver*

      It sounds like you want to have 1 “official” resignation date for the payroll/benefits stuff and another for actually wrapping up stuff with your company. Since you have such a long lead time, I don’t think it’s unprofessional. As far as your colleagues know, your last day is x. Only the paperwork people would know your official last day is x+21 days. Definitely talk to your boss about it ahead of time, but it sounds reasonable.

  34. Anonannah*

    Hi Everyone!

    Long time lurker, first time asker.

    So I have an internal interview next week for a promotion within my existing team. I’ve been asked to present a 15 minute swot analysis and am having trouble figuring out how many bullets to include in each section. Does 3-5 sound about right for a presentation of this length, or would you recommend more or less? I’m pretty nervous as this is my first internal interview/hiring process and I REALLY want this job. The analysis is the only required part of the presentation but I will probably include some photos as I work in a pretty visual industry.

    Thanks for your help!

    1. cat*

      Given that a SWOT analysis is 4 sections, 3 bullet points for each section is 12 total in a 15 minute presentation. Assuming that you’re not going too in-depth with your analysis, this seems right, but if you’re expected to dive into the details, 12 minute be pushing it.

    2. YWD*

      3-5 sounds good, as long as you don’t have to use a really small font to fit it all on the slide. Talk it through to yourself or a friend/colleague a few times to get a feel for how long it will take. Also I’d recommend having the slide build so that your audience doesn’t get distracted reading ahead.

      Good luck!

    3. esra*

      I definitely wouldn’t go over five. cat makes a good point to allocate time to each and break it down that way.

    4. HR Manager*

      SWOT analysis = 4 sections so 3.5 minutes on each. I would keep to 3 bullets with some details.

    5. puddin*

      Keep in mind that strengths can also be threats, threats can be opportunities, etc. Which can means that some bullet points might overlap. You might not spend as much time explaining how “deregulation” is a threat after you have explained how it is an opportunity first (as an example).

    6. Graciosa*

      I’ll chime in with my normal advice for presentations – do *not* write everything important on the slide. A bullet point can have some detail, but does not need to be a dissertation. The audience / interviewers will read the slide – you want to have something memorable to add beyond what already appears.

      For example, if the bullet says “Forecast growth +2%” you could tell them that most of this is expected in Europe, while all other regions are flat at best.

      Plan your presentation to make sure their attention stays on *you* and doesn’t wander off as soon as they’re done reading.

      Good luck.

  35. Beancounter in Texas*

    I supervise a bookkeeper, “Joe,” who is responsible for the office semi-monthly payroll. Every payday, he’s scrambling at the 11th hour to get the checks signed (direct deposit isn’t an option) and hand them to us before we walk out the door. He’s actually missed a payday because our boss left early that day and we were paid late. The issue isn’t that Joe doesn’t print them and have them ready; the issue is that he waits for the boss to have a “free moment.” While it’d be nice for the boss to stop by and check if anything needs his attention, it isn’t the boss’ responsibility to make sure paychecks are signed. I’ve instructed Joe to talk to the boss early in the day and just let him know that he needs to sign checks today. And because the boss forgets and wants us to nag him, remind him later. But Joe is so afraid that the boss will yell at him for being interrupted (which has never happened), that checks and papers stacked up waiting for the boss’ attention have actually been paid late. Joe is too afraid to even interrupt the boss’ conversation to notify him of a phone call, leaving callers on hold for so long, people have hung up.

    Yesterday was payday. At 4:20pm, I inquired with Joe whether he had our paychecks ready (fearing he’d forgotten). In an exasperated voice, he said he was waiting on the boss (who was talking business with a coworker) and would catch him at 4:30, when that coworker typically left for the day. At 4:53pm, I see Joe talking with “Steve” who can also sign checks, but typically does not sign payroll unless the boss is out of town. I politely interrupted the boss (who had kept the coworker late) and asked him if he could make time to sign paychecks, just as Steve walks up to ask the same thing, with Joe trailing behind him. The boss is happy to make time, looks at his watch and gets up to sign checks. So Joe runs around, handing me my paycheck at 4:59pm. This is almost the same routine, most every payday in the last 18 months. It is starting to really exasperate me to the point of taking payroll away from him (which he knows would be a demotion in responsibilities). I have one other bookkeeper who is more responsible and assertive enough to get the boss’ attention, but the boss might view payroll as “too confidential” for her to handle (solely because she’s the lowest on the totem pole).

    What can I do or say to get Joe to approach the boss and get things accomplished timely?

    1. Tiffany In Houston*

      Why isn’t there a standing meeting on the Big Boss’s calendar to sign the paychecks? Why is Joe doing paychecks the day they are due to be handed out to the staff? Can they be done the day before and then locked up until the actual payday? And why isn’t Joe more assertive about this?

      1. fposte*

        Oh, excellent process questions from Tiffany–I never know how payroll is supposed to work at a place like this.

    2. Ann O'Nemity*

      Can the check signing be set up as a recurring meeting on payday? That way, it’s always on the boss’s calendar and Joe doesn’t have to keep hovering around waiting for the boss to have a free moment.

    3. fposte*

      I’d say be crystal-clear on the expectation and serious up on the level of problem. “Joe, we’ve discussed the payroll issues before, and I want to lay out the situation very clearly because it’s not changing. I need you to get payroll signed by 12 noon, even if it means interrupting the boss; I know you feel uncomfortable doing that, but the boss expects to be interrupted, and it’s not acceptable for our schedule for you to wait until you feel comfortable asking. If payroll isn’t signed by noon from now on, I have to consider that a performance problem in your current job, and we’ll need to consider reassigning that part of the task.”

    4. JMegan*

      It sounds like the boss is a pretty reasonable person, and the problem is mostly with Joe, correct? I would suggest a couple of things:

      ~Put a recurring appointment in the boss’ calendar and Joe’s – half an hour at 10:00 am on the day the cheques need to be signed. That way both they both have the time planned and accounted for, and Joe can feel more confident to go and knock on the boss’ door for the signatures.

      ~Is there some sort of assertiveness-training course that you could send Joe on?

      ~Sit down and explain to Joe, very clearly, that getting the paycheques signed by the boss (by X time on Y date, every pay period) is part of his job. Ask him why he’s having trouble with it, what he thinks he could do to make sure it happens. Hopefully he’ll at least come up with the idea of putting the time in his calendar, and perhaps you could offer the training if you think it would help. Then follow Alison’s advice about setting expectations, making sure they’re met, and enforcing consequences if they’re not. Good luck!

    5. Tornader*

      Would it be possible to get a stamp of the boss’s signature? One bookkeeper runs the checks and the other one stamps them. Dual controls and that sort of thing should be reconciled monthly anyway. But honestly he may just need to put on the big boy pants and just get it done or have it taken away from him.

      Tiffany In Houston makes a great point about doing them sooner and looking them up. Doing them the day of is just asking for trouble.

    6. Lily in NYC*

      I think this is putting Joe in an unfair position – I’m not sure if you realize how difficult it can be for a non-managerial employee to nag the “big boss”. Not everyone is able to be as assertive as you expect. You are his supervisor; it is up to you to help him with this and telling him to hound the boss is not the answer. Why is there no recurring appointment on the boss’ calendar for the days the checks need to be signed?

      1. Observer*

        The two things are not exclusive. When the boss tells you “Nag me”, then THAT IS WHAT YOU DO.

        Joe is putting the company at legal risk, because you have to give people their pay on time. There is some leeway as to what is considered “on time”, but if company policy is to have the checks every second Friday, then paying the next Monday is not “on time.”

        1. Lily in NYC*

          I just think it’s bad management to put the onus on Joe . And it’s not as simple as it sounds – we have a division-head like this and it’s maddening. We have to nag him for everything, absolutely everything. The nagging doesn’t even work – he runs away or just says “later” or “don’t bother me now” and then disappears and never return. People have just given up chasing him and have started letting boss deal with the fallout himself. Amazingly, he starting to get a tiny bit better because he’s gotten in hot water a few times with his own boss. Joe’s boss needs to make himself more accessible on Payroll days and there should really be a standing meeting on the calendar instead of Joe having to try to find the guy.

          1. Beancounter in Texas*

            I understand from you’re coming, regarding nagging the big boss. There isn’t formal hierarchy here. Joe sits outside of the boss’ office and is routinely assigned tasks directly by the boss. Plus, the boss has specifically asked to be nagged, by everyone. In fact, Joe is right in the middle of the office and sees the boss coming and going in front of his desk multiple times a day. The boss is just as likely to be found in the kitchen as he is in his office at any given moment, so Joe has prime opportunities to catch him as he walks by to say, “Hey, when can I have a moment?” Or catch him when he’s coming back from lunch before he jumps into a task.

            I have a conscientious objection to nagging someone, so when needing the boss’ time, in the morning I ask his agenda for the day, and then tell him what I need from him and by when. The ‘when’ is important so that he can make an informed decision whether to defer signing checks/reports/tax forms (as he abhors pay late fees/penalties and bank charges). I coached Joe on this method, since it works well for me and I don’t often have to nag the boss. In fact, I think the number of times my boss has deferred my requests in my four years of employment has been five times of the 200+ times I’ve asked for some face time.

            The boss isn’t avoiding Joe, isn’t making himself unavailable or even being passive-aggressively (much less outright) mean to Joe about being interrupted. The boss expects and accepts regular interruptions, so I think the onus is on Joe to get this task done. While a good boss would stop and ask or schedule time with each employee if they need him for anything, I think it is on the employee’s shoulders to do everything within their power to accomplish a task. But it’s my job to make sure the bookkeepers get their work done timely; not my boss’.

    7. Beancounter in Texas*

      Good questions.

      We are paid on the last day of the payperiod, so on the 15th, we are paid for 1st-15th of the month. This is how it’s been done for years (probably decades) and honestly, it has not been an issue until Joe took over.

      Our office is a small family business of seven. The boss likes to run the show as much as he can, so there really isn’t much hierarchy (and it isn’t enforced). He doesn’t keep a schedule, so he doesn’t keep a calendar. I will suggest a regular paycheck signing meeting time, but I expect that the enforcement will have to come from Joe, given that our weekly Tuesday Morning Staff Meetings that our boss chairs hasn’t been held in over a year (and frankly, we’re relieved).

      A signature stamp has been suggested before, by many bookkeepers. The answer is no way, no how, never. The boss has a low risk tolerance with people accessing his money. We don’t even have online banking for the four banks with whom we have accounts, not even view-only access.

      Thank you for the specific words to say & the advice about setting up expectations, making sure they’re met & dealing consequences (including praise). I think that will get me on the path I want.

      1. Meg Murry*

        Does Joe keep a calendar? Have him put in a recurring appointment for the 15th to send an email to boss that morning saying “today is the 15th and I’ll be in your office at 10 am to have the paychecks signed.” Or have Joe put a post-it on boss’s office door or computer monitor either the evening of the 14th or the morning of the 15th.

        Joe may not want to interrupt big boss and think his work isnt important enough to bother boss, but trust me – signing people’s pay checks IS the most important thing boss will do that day, if he values having employees.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        If it is such a PITA for the boss, why not have Steve sign the checks all the time?

        OTH, why not do all the craziness the day before payday?

        If you are Joe’s direct boss, I think it might be time for you to intervene here.

        But you can dress it up about how it is to his advantage to hammer out a new system for getting payroll done. Remind him of how it is a big, stressful push each week. As he is hurriedly signing checks, it’s not easy for him to be reviewing the numbers for accuracy. Employees get upset if they paycheck is delayed, it could damage employee retention if the problem persists.
        I think you get the idea here, you might be able to add a couple other ideas on why it is in his own best interest to change this. I always say, streamline the recurring activities, it just makes life easier and it increases accuracy.

        1. Beancounter in Texas*

          The boss wants to the sign paychecks and not have Steve do it unless it is an emergency (Steve was gone too when we were paid late) or to cover for the boss being out of town. So this is the boss’ rule.

          I explained above, but I’ll detail here again. We are paid on the last day of the pay period, so he has to wait until that day to run payroll. Granted, he should do it first thing in the morning after everyone has arrived – collect timesheets and get the checks ready – so that’s where I’m going to focus his attention.

          1. Meg Murry*

            Joe doesn’t even have the timesheets yet that morning, and he needs to run all the calcs and print the checks, then boss has to proof and sign them? How much time does it take Joe to hunt everyone down for their timecard?
            This system is way atypical – everywhere I’ve ever worked there has been a lag of 1-2 weeks from when the work was completed to payday, so payroll could be processed. The only exception to this is one place where we were purely salaried and got the exact same check each month.
            If you can’t change the process to give Joe at least a day (any reason you can’t change the policy to pay nofthe 16th and 1st?), then I would suggest required having all employees be required to turn in timecards by a certain time (like 9 am) or risk not getting a check until a later day. Then also have Joe do the “its the 15th, see you at x:00” post it for the boss.

            But I feel for Joe – if I had to nag 7 people for their timecards, then hurry up and calculate their checks, then nag the boss to sign it, and I had to do it 2x a month, I’d be pretty grumpy about it too. I wonder if Joe has to nag the boss regularly about signing invoices orvendor checks too – some people just aren’t great at nagging, or just don’t want to deal with it every day. it wouldn’t be a good fit for me – after the first few times, I would probably start to think “if you don’t care if your employees get paychecks today, why should I?” Not the best attitude to have – but that’s my honest opinion.

  36. Lisa*

    Making a Case for Going to a Conference

    Ok, I have been waiting years for an employer to let me go to this one conference. Unfortunately, what I though was a given with my new job getting acquired by a corporate company – turns out to be I must be a speaker to be eligible for them to pay for my airfare and hotel. A way to save money since speakers have the attendee fees waived. So when I questioned this, I was told to ‘make a case for going’.

    Anybody know how to do this? As a formal document to be sent to people up the chain that are not part of my office or anyone I report to? I want something beyond – I deserve to go and you promised when I got this job.

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      Look through the program guide and see which sessions you’d want to attend and use that to build your case. Best practices to help with a workflow that your department has trouble with. Panel on problem your team is currently facing. Networking with leaders in your industry for particular program.

    2. Brett*

      Document how much similar training would cost if done as formal training.

      e.g. the main conference I go to has multiple workshops, seminars, and talks. I add up the hours that I will be in these events, and then multiple that by the hourly cost of training from our training vendor.

      I also supply a list of some of the key events I plan to attend to give an indication of what kind of training I will get. (But I never do a complete list, since I want to have the flexibility to change sessions on the fly if I find myself in a bad session or one gets cancelled or I simply get pulled into a networking meeting with people.)

      For future requests… how hard is it to be a speaker? I’m in the middle of being on the conference board right now, and we are always desperate for speakers; so much so that this time around every board member is being required to present too. On the flip side, we do not even waive fees for plenary and keynote speakers.

      1. Lisa*

        My industry tends to only want speakers from client-side big brands or CMO level from agencies. I’m not even a director so I won’t ever be chosen to speak over others.

        1. Brett*

          And they actually get enough speakers that way? We needed 39 speakers covering 1440 minutes just to cover a small 2 day 4 track conference. Last major conference I went to had 80 tracks over 5 days, which would scale up to around 2000 speakers.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      It’s a bad spot- you can’t be a speaker and you can’t go unless you are a speaker. Ugh.

      Can you bring back something that you could use to train people you work with?

      Think about why you want to go and what you expect to learn/see. I talked my way into getting a conference paid for by saying, I will be looking for resources and ideas. (I was specific about what I was thinking of- I mentioned specific problems that had us banging our heads against the wall.)

  37. Steve G*

    Wow….totally PO’d here, I was recently laid off and the insurance at my new company doesn’t start until April…so I called the COBRA plan #, and the rate I can buy insurance at is $525.00!!!!! WTF former employer, I mean, it’s nice that I get some sort of severance, but how about letting me know beforehand what the insurance rate would be! It’s not a “benefit” if you literally can’t afford it. I’m really not in the mood to buy insurance in the new Obama exchange, just to have it for 3 months and then switch again…………….

    1. Case of the Mondays*

      The laws may have changed but as far as I know, you have at least two months to sign up for COBRA and when you do, it is retroactive to the date you lost coverage. It is really the only time you can buy it only if you need it. If the law is 60 days then you may be SOL for that one month but if the law is 90 days you may be good and you only buy it retroactive if any care you got in that time exceeded the premium you would have paid.

      There are also companies that sell short term gap policies for a month at a time but many have weird exclusions so read them very very carefully.

    2. Case of the Mondays*

      Also, if it turns out you have 60 days to elect, ask your former employer if they will cover you for one month as part of your severance so that you can then use the “only if you need it” for the other two months. They would have to actually keep you insured as an employee though, not just pay your COBRA. It can’t hurt to ask what they would do. Maybe they would agree to pay 3 months COBRA. Lots of places hate laying people off and try to make it as least painful as possible.

    3. Rebecca*

      Oh, COBRA! When our company had massive downsizing and layoff’s, we all got the same email. Monthly COBRA rates for employee/spouse exceeded the amount of unemployment benefits I’d receive in one month. I felt terrible for the people who were left go. I don’t know anyone who could have afforded that.

    4. BRR*

      There’s probably someplace where your employer lists their contribution. COBRA just gives the option of paying what it cost the company. It’s really a terrible benefit.

    6. Elizabeth West*

      COBRA is awful. No one I know can afford it.

      On my unemployment, I was able to apply for a program at my GP that covered office visits for $10 each. That might not be an option if you’re already re-employed, but if you have to go to the doctor or get medication, they might be able to work something out.

    7. HR Manager*

      Yep, COBRA is usually whole monthly premium plus 2% admin fee (102% of cost). No one really gets how expensive health insurance really is until those COBRA rates come through. I’m surprised they didn’t give you the rates when they gave your severance info though.

      By the way, opting in for COBRA is 60 days from your date of separation, so keep that deadline in mind if you are mulling other options. COBRA and state-exchange options are month to month, so at least you only have to buy it for as long as you need it. Since your window is only 3 months, at least you are looking at up to 1500+ for — not coverage for the full 18 months. Maybe you have a cheaper insurance on the exchange.

      On the plus side, a 3 month gap in health insurance coverage might not trigger a penalty on your income taxes. If you are healthy and don’t need a prescription filled, and have no dependents who will need insurance, you can chance it and leave the 3 month gap and just pick up when insurance is available in April. I was told by our benefits broker that a penalty might be about $90 for an individual. That’s a lot less than 1500+ for the 3 months of coverage that may/may not get used.

      1. Steve G*

        Penalty? By who and for what? I remember some mumbo-jumbo about that in one of Obama’s speeches but didn’t know it is an actual real thing.

        Also, where is “the exchange.” I went to http://www.healthcare.gov, which seems like an insurance exchange, but the absolute cheapest plan was $358, so this can’t be THE exchange for AFFORDABLE insurance. If you know the name of the real website, that would be helpful.

        Thanks

        1. Case of the Mondays*

          I think that is it. That is actually a very reasonable price (believe it or not) for an insurance policy in this country. I agree that is a very sad state of affairs. Most of us don’t know the true cost of insurance because our employers subsidize it so heavily. Pre-exchange my parents were paying over $1000 each for their policies. You may qualify for subsidies too that would bring that rate down further. You could still contact an insurance broker and get quotes for both private policies and exchange policies.

          1. Steve G*

            Wow….it is ridiculous. I make 75K per year and once you take into the account that you usually only get paid 2X month (i.e. most months you don’t have that 3rd paycheck)….with state, federal, NYC taxes + 401K….I “only” have $3600 most months take home to play with. I know, it’s alot, but out of that comes about $1600 for house expenses, $200 parking, $400 for car payments + insurance + IDK how much for gas + other smaller bills like internet, and with the cost of food, etc. here, I definitely don’t have $500 to pay for insurance. OK, I get I’m in a pretty good financial position, I could do $300, but that’s about it.

            It is really depressing that this is the state of affairs. I lived in Czech Rep for 3 years and it was so much easier and more in line with the cost of living at the time there…it didn’t feel like a huge expense when I had to pay it.

            Anyways, thanks for your comments Case of Mondays !

        2. asteramella*

          If you live in a state that set up its own insurance exchange, you maybe have other options. Google “[your state] + insurance exchange.” The IRS assesses a penalty to your taxes if you are uninsured for over 3 months of the tax year. It’s about $100 per month or a certain % of your income for the 2014 tax year and the penalty amount will triple next year. Google “ACA individual mandate” to find out more. You should be fine as long as your uninsured period doesn’t exceed 3 months.

        3. Anx*

          I’m in my late 20s. That doesn’t seem so unusual.

          Before the ACA that’s what my individual coverage would have been had I purchased a comprehensive plan. I’m female, though, and that would have included the 150/mo maternity rider. I’ve been self-insured since college.

    8. Pooski*

      I was in this same situation a couple of months ago, and would HIGHLY recommend buying insurance through the marketplace, if our state has one.

      It really was not that painful, and cost me 1/6th of what my COBRA would have been (almost $800!).

      It was totally worth it to me to know that I was covered in case anything happened, and to not have to worry about one more thing while I was searching. Especially because my new employer had a waiting period for benefits to come into play, so I knew I was covered during that period as well.

    9. ThursdaysGeek*

      I don’t think COBRA was much less expensive 20 years ago when I was offered it. I remember being staggered at the cost. But, since it had that retroactive clause, I figured I’d pay the money if I needed it. I didn’t need it and all was good.

    10. Jazzy Red*

      I have been laid off/unemployed at least half-a-dozen times in my life, and have gone without insurance every time. I consider keeping a roof over my head priority #1, food on the table priority #2, utilities #3. Insurance never even made the list, since the first 3 priorities took almost all the money.

      You’re right – cobra is not really a benefit.

      1. Case of the Mondays*

        Pre – ACA, COBRA was a benefit for the “uninsurable.” I have a pre-existing condition so I couldn’t just go buy a plan in the private market. They were not required to insure me and they wouldn’t. I had to have group coverage through an employer or a spouse’s employer. COBRA allowed me the option to pay (at an exorbitant rate) to keep that coverage. While I agree it is no benefit if you can’t afford it, the “benefit” was having the ability to buy coverage you couldn’t previously buy.

    11. BuildMeUp*

      Try googling “[your state] temporary health insurance.” Some health insurance providers offer plans for a short period of time (usually 1-6 months), and when I did it last year (through Blue Cross Blue Shield Illinois), it wasn’t very expensive!

  38. Hair Issues*

    Urgent question that can’t wait for e-mail:
    I applied for Job A at Dept A a month ago, and now they just called for an interview, which won’t be until the end of the month. In the meantime, I saw another job opening, which also happens to be at Dept A. They are pretty much the same sort of job, I think in slightly different areas of the same department. The due date for Job B is next week, before the interview. I can’t exactly see what the outcome of A is going to be before deciding whether or not to apply for B.

    Does that….look funny if I try to apply for both jobs? Should I not? Should I just apply for B anyway in case? (I’m not super picky right now.)

    In other news, I put semi-permanent hair color of an unusual shade into my hair and ah…yeah, sure, NOW I get a job interview. I somehow knew that if I didn’t do it I wouldn’t get one and I would if I did…I don’t think it’ll wash out entirely in time either. There are streaks remaining. I’m kind of inclined to say “screw it, let ’em take me as I am” even though that’s probably not great either….but I don’t know if I care super much about getting this one or not yet to want to try to scour my head for weeks, especially since I like the shade.

    1. PurpleMonkeyDishwasher*

      On the hair issue, can’t you just dye over it a few days before the interview with a more natural color? Sure, there still might be some variations in shade, but at least it won’t be pink/green/whatever. That’s what I would do.

      As for the application question, who is your contact at Dept. A? Would it be possible to call and ask about being considered for Job B as well? I do think it would look a little odd to just go through the online process for Job B when you already have an interviewed scheduled for Job A, especially if it’s not a huge department or if both applications are being filtered through the same person/committee/whatever. I don’t think it’s weird overall to apply to two jobs at the same department, as long as your qualifications are right for both, but I do think it’d be a little weird to do it without some sort of heads up to HR or whoever is managing the interview process.

      1. Sunflower*

        Second this suggestion on calling the contact. Hiring is so vastly different across companies that you don’t even know if whoever read your app for Job A is reading it for Job B. So yeah i would just call and ask

        1. Hair Issues*

          I have no direct contact there, I got called by the “HR Generalist.” Everything goes through an overall HR department first.

          1. JMegan*

            In that case, I would just call the HRG and ask what’s the best way to proceed. She’ll be able to tell you pretty quickly if you should submit a second application, talk to the hiring manager, or whathaveyou.

            I also agree with those who suggest a semi-permanent colour over your current hair colour(s). It should be enough to tone it down a bit for you. Good luck!

      2. periwinkle*

        And second the suggestion for re-coloring your hair. Use a semi-permanent color such as Clairol Natural Instincts – it will wash out gradually over a few weeks, but adds enough initial color to (hopefully) cover up the streaks.

        Hey, it could be worse. I was unemployed for a while and had become annoyed with dealing with my hair, so I got out the clippers with the 1″ blade. The next day, *ring*, “can you come in for an interview next Monday?” I got the job anyway. I also discovered, as it grew out, that my hair looked really cute in short layers. A win all around!

    2. GOG11*

      I’m not sure about Job A/Job B thing, but regarding the hair…depending on where the high lights are and the length of your hair, could you start experimenting with styles that might hide them all or reduce the number of exposed areas? Depending on the location of color and the length of your hair, you could try one of those doughnut bun things (it looks like a hair-colored scouring pad in the shape of a doughnut). When I use one of those, only the first six inches of my hair is prominently displayed (whereas a twist bun shows all of my hair).

      I’ve never dyed my hair, though, and I’m not familiar with color placement so maybe this isn’t useful.

    3. fposte*

      You can totally apply for Job B. Applying for Job A isn’t saying “I love you and nobody else”; you’re not cheating on it by applying elsewhere. I wouldn’t necessarily bring up to one that I was applying to the other, but if it comes up it’s okay to talk about, and I’d frame it as enthusiasm for the business/department.

    4. Vanishing Girl*

      My word of wisdom for dyeing:

      If you decide to dye over your hair, be sure it is not with a complementary color (across the color wheel from your current color). choose a color that works with whatever tone is currently in your hair. For example, I had blue hair once. In order to cover it up and have my hair still look good, I used a darker reddish color with tones of blue (as opposed to orange) and it looked great.

      side note: I interviewed for my current (corporate library) job with a very unusual color of hair. I liked it, so I went in there and owned that color and dressed to complement it in pretty normal business attire. It worked out for me that time, but I should say that this corporation is not very conservative.

    5. Meg Murry*

      Regarding the hair color: I’ve heard warnings not to use coconut oil on dyed hair as it could strip the color – so maybe a coconut oil hair mask might help pull out some of the color faster? I’d shampoo like crazy, try a coconut oil treatment, and then cover with a semipermanent more natural color as others have recommended.

      All that of course, if you really really want this job and would always doubt if th color streak is what did you in. If you are more “hmm, whatever happens happens” and you plan to do more colored streaks in the future, I agree that presenting yourself as you are with the colored streaks (and everything else about your attire being 100% conservative/interview appropriate) might be a good feeler as to company culture.

    6. Aam Admi*

      I was in this exact same situation last month with my employer – applied for Job A at Dept A and had an interview .Dept B posted an identical position with the posting closing the day before my interview for Job A. I went ahead and applied to Job B. Both dept mangers report to the same director and the staff sit next to each other in the same office. The director and Manager of Dept A interviewed me for Job A. At the end of the interview, when they asked if I had any questions, I mentioned as an FYI that I had also applied for the Dept B posting. I got offered Job A and am now working alongside the person who got hired to do Job B.

  39. De Minimis*

    Haven’t checked in here much lately. My wife has an interview today for a part-time job, but we’re already probably leaning toward not doing it. The job posting she applied to at her old employer has been taken down, and we figure they may contact her about an interview any day now–just really hard for her to turn down a senior management position with an employer that really likes her, you know? Our main reservations would be having to make another move cross country only a few months after moving here, and the question of if I could find a job there….

    As far as my job goes, a better position [higher grade with promotional potential] has come up at another agency that is in the same general area as this one, I will apply but not sure if it will amount to anything. It’s a totally different agency and the job is more supervisory and involves a different type of accounting than what I’ve been doing. But it is in another small town similar to where I’m at now and has the same preference requirements as my current agency, so it may be hard to fill so I may have a shot. I’m qualified for it at least on paper. Feeling pretty dissatisfied at my current job. It would be fine if I were willing to remain here doing the same stuff for the next 20 years [and be paid about the same forever] but I’m not.

      1. De Minimis*

        Wife’s interview went okay, but I think she came to the conclusion that the position would probably not be a fit.
        At least it’s one less factor into our decision making as far as what to do.

          1. De Minimis*

            Her former employer also called today. Interview next week, with the people who asked her to apply.

  40. Mimmy*

    So the question the other day about the “general studies” degree got me thinking a bit. I earned an MSW in 2007, though my post-Masters plans never really worked out. Currently, I’m pursuing a graduate certificate in one of those vague “studies” fields. It is a popular program that also offers a full Masters degree and is in a fairly specific area (disabilities), but still not something that prepares you for a specific career. I figured this certificate would be a good supplement to my Masters and would be beneficial to my current volunteer work, but I’m a little worried that the length of time between completing the MSW and this graduate certificate is going to be too long (at my current pace, I expect to complete the certificate this coming Fall or early next year). I’m starting to wonder if I’m just grasping at straws at this point. Nothing has happened in the pace that I’d hoped. I’m not looking for sympathy–I just need to get out of my own way.

    TL;DR – Would it look bad on my resume to have the MSW, then this seemingly-random graduate certificate nearly 10 years later? lol.

    1. AnonToday*

      It won’t look bad to have a graduate certificate years after your MSW – people will just assume that you went back to school for something that interested you. A disability studies certificate will not get you a job, unless you’re already working in something related, but it sounds like you don’t expect it to.

    2. HR Manager*

      Are you getting the certificate because you know it’s needed for that next step (i.e., are you seeing this requested via interviews or job postings)? If not, I don’t think certificates are that different than graduate degrees – except cost wise and time commitment wise. While a certificate is lighter in commitment than a grad degree, I think any of these programs should be pursued only if 1) there is genuine interest in the field and you would like to learn more or become a deep expert int this topic, regardless of career pursuits, 2) a job in your field, requires this certification or degree. Otherwise, I don’t think pursuing a degree or a certificate to pad a resume is recommended.

      1. Mimmy*

        I’d say my reasons for pursuing the certificate are in line with the first of the two reasons you suggest for pursuing a program. In addition to being passionately interested in the field, I wanted to try to integrate the perspectives of the field into my work with a council that I was appointed to last year. Unfortunately, the council has had issues that has had an effect on moving forward with our goals. We’re working on making some changes in the leadership, so hopefully that’ll get us back on track this year.

    3. puddin*

      I would interpret the MSW with the certification later as a positive thing. Tells me you are a life-long learner and open to the idea of learning more.

  41. Ali*

    I have an interview next Friday!

    The job is at a nonprofit, which is exciting because I have considered that realm before. It’s a business/admin role, so it’s a bit outside what I’m doing now. However, when I saw the job posted on the organization’s Facebook page, I wanted to go for it because it required skills I already had: dealing with the public, computer work and working some odd hours. Nights and weekends are required when there are events, but otherwise, it’s a full-time day job. I figured I could deal with some weekends/evenings, especially since I wouldn’t be working major holidays like I am now.

    A formal cover letter wasn’t required, so I just sent my resume and explained some transferable skills/experiences in the e-mail. I must’ve said something right because I got picked for an interview two days after I sent my resume!

    I really hope this is the job that will allow me to get a fresh start. I have a performance meeting again at my present job next week, so if it doesn’t go perfect, I know I’ll have the interview to look forward to.

    Keep your fingers crossed!

  42. HAnon*

    Any tips for dealing with sexism at work? I work in the building/construction industry (in an office for a building supply products manufacturer), and I overhear a lot of comments (mostly from men) that are sexist towards women. They usually aren’t directed at me specifically, but it just gets on my last nerve. I mean, come on. It’s 2015, people! And the worse part is, the comments aren’t just coming from older men who are “old school” — they’re coming from men MY age (that is, late 20’s – 30’s). I’ve had men make comments to me about how I look like I’m “the kind of woman who would have a maid”, I’ve had a man condescendingly pat me on the head (physically) for asking him to explain his notes on a document I was laying out (that really got under my skin and I was so shocked I didn’t react in time to respond), I overhear the sales guys in the department sitting behind me (cursed open floor plan) talk about how a guy who can cook “is going to make a great wife one day” and gripe about women. Some of the comments are more offensive than others, but I am just sick of it. What’s a good way to deal with this kind of thing without being labeled the “office bitch” because I don’t want to put up with it?

    1. Myrin*

      I like the Captain Awkward-esque answer of a simple “Wow!” in repsonse to such antics. I’m not always great at elaborate confrontation so I’ve tried this and it worked like a charm every single time. This probably only works when something is directed at you and not so much with the guy sitting behind you whom you just overhear, but I’d absolutely give it a try!

      (Also, ugh, I’m so sorry you’re in such an environment, it sounds very sucky!)

    2. Sarah Nicole*

      Ugh, I hate to say this, but it honestly sounds like the type of place I would leave. If it’s that deeply rooted, I don’t know if there is a way to get that to stop without incurring a negative label.

      BUT, I know that’s not super helpful, so here’s my question: Are there other women working there? Any in executive or managerial roles? How does your boss feel about these comments? Can you give us a little background on the environment from a management perspective?

      1. HAnon*

        My boss is a woman, and while I would classify her generally as a strong, assertive woman, she tends to pick her battles and combatting sexism in the office is not one of them. I think she does get annoyed, but to my knowledge she’s never done anything proactive to combat those kinds of attitudes and I’ve never heard her make a remark to shut down a conversation like that. I don’t want to say anything too specific, but I’ve heard my boss specifically request tools or implements that are “pink” because she wanted them to be girly, and it made me just cringe inside.

        There are a good number of women who work in the office with me. I think that most of the women just brush off the comments or kind of take a “boys will be boys” attitude.

        For the record, I’m trying to stay for another year so that I can have two consecutive years at a company under my belt. The other companies I’ve worked for had WORSE problems with sexism and sexual harassment (like, blatant, unchecked comments directed to me and female coworkers about our bodies and etc.) and that’s why I left last company, but I feel like if I say in an interview, “I only stayed at these companies for a year each due to sexism” that’s going to send up a red flag to employers, unfortunately.

          1. Elizabeth West*

            “Boys will be boys” is bullsh1t. Upper management all men explains a lot. This will never change. If your boss won’t (can’t) do anything about it, I’m not sure what to advise other than looking for a better place to work.

            1. Sarah Nicole*

              I agree with Elizabeth. It just depends on whether you think there is room for change. Obviously if mid-level female managers aren’t doing much to combat the issue, it is unlikely to get much better. I think it is great that you want to stick around and keep a longer job on your resume, but perhaps you can make one last jump and really make this one count! I work for a smallish (65 employees) IT consulting company where I’m obviously mostly around men. I work in marketing and one coworker on my team is female. I did an interview with her near the end of the hiring process and asked her specific questions about being a female in this company. I stated I was interested in opportunities and culture for women here. After going through 4 interviews and asking these questions of her and another male exec, I felt comfortable that I would be entering a professional environment, and I have been totally correct.

              I guess I’m just saying that when you do decide to leave this crazy environment, do some real diligence about your next place of work. Perhaps you can start looking now and you may not find the right fit for a year anyway. It took me a while to find a place where I could do the job I wanted, only 20 miles away, good work/life balance, and with a culture I could respect. Check out the landscape and get ready to start doing some interviews. You don’t have to take a new job until you find exactly what you want. Since it sounds like there’s no serious concerns about your safety in this particular environment, you’ve got some time. I wish you the best of luck!

            2. The Cosmic Avenger*

              Besides, I’m assuming that these workers are not literally children, so they should be acting like men and not boys. Real men can cook, clean, etc. and are capable of seeing women as equals.

    3. Lily in NYC*

      There was recently a thread here about this very issue. If I recall correctly, the general take-away was “if you are in a male-heavy industry where this behavior is ingrained and common, it is up to you to adapt or leave”. I know it sucks. I could handle the stupid comments, but if someone patted me on the head like that there would be hell to pay.

    4. brightstar*

      Have you tried addressing it in the moment? I used to work with all men and had to learn to be much more assertive and to calmly address things in the moment. My replacement called me after her second day, crying and that was the advice I gave her.

      For instance, I’d have to say things like “Don’t call me a whore.” “You are going to respect my boundaries.” “What you’re saying is sexist.” “Just because you don’t understand women doesn’t make them crazy.”

      I tried several things, sometimes the conversation was just something I’d overheard, but in general that worked the best. I also found just not listening helped a lot, until they banned headphones.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        There’s a lot to be said for planning your responses, OP.
        Don’t forget responses such as “wow.” or “Really.” or “What?”. Also you can say “Oh- don’t go there.” or “Was that necessary?” I vary it depending on the setting, as some of those responses feel tamer than others.

        Sadly, it is a train your brain thing. I started training my brain each night at home- I would think of one or two of the worst things I had heard during the day and figured out what my response would be if I heard it again. It takes time and it takes consistency on your part. I ended up picking my battles simply because I did not have enough energy to consistently address everything I heard.

    5. HR Manager*

      That’s clearly a case of sexual harassment and hostile work environment. Report them to HR, your manager, your legal team, the EEO or all of the above. If your manager does nothing, go above him/her and around him/her. A manager not responding to a claim of sexual harassment and hostile work environment puts him/her personally liable for culpability and damages against the employee, if the claim is proven true after an investigation.

    6. Observer*

      I haven’t read the responses, so I may be overlapping, but here are my thoughts.

      The stuff you overhear is out of your hands unless you have good reason to believe that you were intended to overhear or it’s sooo over the top that it could rise to the level of “severe and pervasive”.

      If anyone ever touches you tell to stop that NOW. If they apologize, you leave it the first time. The second time, you go straight to management – and make it clear that this is harassment territory, if no one wants to deal with this. If the toucher gives you an attitude when you tell him to quit it, then same applies.

      Comments are a bit trickier. I wouldn’t react to all of them. But I think you can react to more extreme ones with comments like “You do realize that this is really sexist” or even Carolyn Hax’s famous “Wow”. If these are comments about YOU – your looks or whatever else, then you address it more directly. And, if it’s ongoing, you go to management as well.

    7. Chriama*

      Unfortunately, your only 2 options are adapt or leave. It’s too ingrained in the culture for anything else. If you choose to adapt, here are some suggestions:

      1) guy patting you on the head — do it back to him. If you can think of a silly remark like “I didn’t realize today is pat a coworker’s head day”, it becomes a semi-humorous interact that still emphasizes that you’re equals.

      2) comments made about you — shut it down politely but firmly. It would be good to have some pre-planned responses like “wow”, “do you talk to your mother that way” or “that’s not appropriate” that you practice saying (like, literally role play with a friend). Asking them to elaborate is also a good way to call out the stupidity of some remarks (“the kind of woman who would have a maid” — I literally don’t get what that sentence means, and if I didn’t have the additional context of your letter I’m not sure I would even call it sexist. Women have maids and men have valets or butlers, right? Or have I been reading too much Agatha Christie lately?).

      3) comments made about women in general — this depends on the offensiveness rating of the remark and whether you were part of the conversation or happened to overhear it. I’d err on the side of “let it go” for stuff like the “this man is going to make a good wife one day” unless you’re quick-witted enough to come up with something like “I know I’d marry him if he made me lasagna like this every week”.

      Overall, these people aren’t going to change their beliefs because of you. There isn’t enough emotional pull in coworker relationships for that to happen. But if you can develop otherwise good relationships with them and assert yourself politely but firmly (humor helps) I think you could get to a place where you respect each other enough to not bring up hot-button topics to each other.

      1. AnotherFed*

        Seconding this. You cannot reasonably expect their attitudes to change or them to stop altogether, but you can expect to essentially achieve a separate peace. Your success will also depend on how good you are at your job – respect for your work does translate to respect for you as a person. Its also worth noting that in some workplace cultures, giving someone crap (within reason) is just a sign that they are part of the team.

        Humor is always a great way to deflect, and turning unwanted physical contact into mockery directed at the initiator can put a stop to it if you aren’t comfortable just telling people not to touch you, period. For example, “I see that your social circle consists of nothing but dogs – people don’t get head pats. Don’t make me bring a shock collar to train you.” or “HAnon is not a teddy bear. No touch!”

        For truly NSFW comments, either shut it down as gross, or, if you feel confident enough, shut it down with mockery again – “Seriously? Next thing I know I’m gong to walk in on you and your my little brony kink. Stop before you break my brain!”

        Depending on workplace culture, how athletic you are, and how much presence you have, you can also go with variations of touch me again and you won’t get those fingers back, don’t make me smack you, etch, but that’s iffy in places where workplace violence is treated more seriously… unlikely in a place with rampant sexism, but still possible.

        1. catsAreCool*

          For not being touched, I’ve found that backing away quickly tends to get the message across.

  43. GOG11*

    I manage two student workers who are decently busy some shifts but who have substantial downtime during others. On occasion, I try to give projects that are more related to their intended career path than the work they normally do here and which aren’t necessarily for the department.

    I was thinking of assigning something related to AAM and I remember someone talking about doing so with her class at some point, but I can’t find it (the words “class” and/or “project” are used in a LOT of posts). Does anyone remember where this was? I think it was within the last 6 months, but I have been known to use the “Surprise Me!” feature a lot so I’m not 100% sure on that.

    Also, if anyone has new ideas or thoughts on this, feel free to share!

    1. just laura*

      What is their career path?

      I would have loved an “assignment” to create a good resume and cover letter for myself– maybe in response to an actual job ad that I could apply to when I graduated.

      1. GOG11*

        One is studying to be an accountant. She worked full time through high school and is a total rock star. She has a good resume and I’ve worked with her on various aspects of cover letters so far, so I think she’s set in that respect (though maybe more practice wouldn’t hurt?)

        The other wants to go into counseling/psychology. She has a resume put together, as well, and (for both) when I do mid and end of year reviews, I talk with them about their resume and give them examples of things they could add to them. I try to do this at other times throughout the year as it makes sense, too.

        I’ve found that the culture in academia is very different in some ways than other work places I’ve been in and AAM has helped me further establish what’s normal and what’s not (in terms of when to carry things over into future jobs). Usually, this is the first office job for my students, so I try to point these things out as I go. I don’t work in the same location so I’m sure there’s weirdness going on that I can’t address.

        In addition to that, the management and workplace communication stuff is stellar. So maybe something involving that?

    3. hereyago*

      Was this it? Search: teaching high school students about labor issues

      I didn’t put the link because it would take a while to get through the filter.

      2. GOG11*

        The one I had in mind/knew of Alison provided a link to. I didn’t even know this one existed. Thank you for directing me to it! One of my students is studying criminal justice, as well, and I think she’d be really interested in the 10 Myths article.

  44. Anon College AA*

    I just found out with certainty that my one year temporary contract that is up in early February will NOT be renewed. Its not due to my work (I’ve been told by my boss and my boss’s boss and everyone I work with that they really want to keep me and have fought for it) but because of internal politics involving the Administrative Assistant’s union and because they want to re-org the department and positions instead of just patching it with my position instead.

    I knew this was a risk I was taking when I took a 1 year temp contract, but I was told over and over that they were going to do everything in their power to keep me. Unfortunately, their power isn’t enough. They are trying to create a position for me in the re-org, but that won’t be hiring for several months, and I can’t wait until then to get a job – and if I do find other work, I can’t burn that bridge by then leaving immediately again.

    But on a positive note, I got a call out of the blue from someone I worked with on a project more than 6 years ago (he was a supplier to my company at the time) that found an old resume of mine on Monster and wondered if I was interested in interviewing for an open position at his very small company in my old industry. I’m not super enthused about going back to that industry – but I hope I can make myself build up some enthusiasm this weekend, since I really need the job. And maybe it will be a great fit since its a tiny company where I might be able to define my role as I want it – I’m definitely going in with an open mind.

    TLDR: boo office politics when it comes to people’s jobs, yay networks of people you forgot you even knew trying to get you jobs

    1. Lily in NYC*

      What a bummer. If you think that they really will be able to hire you full-time, how about temping elsewhere until then? That way you wouldn’t have to quit a new job.

      1. Anon College AA*

        Yes, I have considered temping, and already have my application in and some feelers out for potential temp positions. But I don’t want to hold up my whole life on the possibility of a new job coming through – because the way they’ve handled this so far and the fact that everything is so bogged down in politics and academia bureaucracy and negotiating with the union, and the fact that once I leave I won’t be an internal candidate anymore.
        Since I can’t get my #1 choice (keep my current job as is) or my #2 (keep a similar position at the same place), I now have to figure out where to go next, and how to keep paying the mortgage while I do it.

    2. Jennifer*

      I’m sorry to hear that :( I hope the new job could work out though–so there’s that, at least?

    1. Ibex*

      Sorry for the vague question. I usually ask the timeline I should expect for the interview process, whether travel costs are covered, and a couple of general questions about the job. Is there anything else I should ask?

      1. GOG11*

        I’m not sure if they’re appropriate at this level/stage of the interview process, but Alison’s “10 Best Interview Questions to Ask” is great. I couldn’t manage to find it on here, but Googling the title and “Ask a Manager” pulls it up. It’s over at US News.

        1. Lisa*

          This is all questions that you would ask a hiring manager, not HR who is doing the initial phone screen. They can’t answer any specifics about the job usually.

      2. Dawn*

        Who will be doing the interview and how long do they expect the interview to take. Useful to know if you’re going into a rigorously scheduled interview with 4 different people, each person taking 30 min each, or if you’re going into a 4 hour long interview with two people who will both be your boss, or whatever.

    2. puddin*

      Am going through this now my list of questions is:
      1. Why is this position vacant?
      2. Is there a bonus structure at the company and is this position eligible for it?
      3. What other departments would I be partnering with?
      4. What is the name of the Hiring Manager?
      5. How many people currently have this position?
      6. How many people report to this position?
      7. What career level/career band/pay grade is this?
      8. What career development options are available at your company for someone in this position?
      9. How soon are you looking to have the position filled?

      I do not ask all of these in every interview and I do not ask anything about pay or bonus (2&7) unless they bring it up first. But it is the list I keep at the ready.

  46. Shell*

    Got a new job and handed in my notice this week. Current bosses were surprised but super supportive; after the surprise wore off they were very excited for me and offered many congratulations, great references for the future, etc. There were talks of organizing a lunch for me.

    I’m very happy, but also kinda sad. We worked out a transition plan and I promised to document my work thoroughly (there are some software things that only I know and I don’t know if they can find a replacement for me in three weeks), but these were the best, most easy-going people I’ve worked with. I’ll miss this place.

    I know this kind of feeling is common though, so I’m trying to look upwards and onwards.

      1. Masters Degree Searcher*

        Congrats! I feel exactly the same way, as a contractor—I gave notice 3 days ago, and I love my colleagues. The new place offered $14k more in pay and transportation cost is far lower. It involves a high-profile agency with key documents and I’m nervous (imposter syndrome, anyone?) but. Yeah. Totally understand.

  47. Newhouse*

    I’m in a bit of an unusual situation right now and was wondering if maybe someone on here had any ideas on how to deal with it.

    I will be sent on a five day conference trip together with a few colleagues. I know the hotel we’ll be staying in is the one other coworkers stayed at previously, so I know that I’ll be rooming together with at least one of the other coworkers that will be going with me, if not more.

    The problem is – I make weird noises during sleep. There’s really no other way of putting it. It’s not snoring or talking or gritting my teeth or any of the other things you might have heard of, it’s kind of a… growly-moany thing? I have absolutely no control over this and wouldn’t even know I did this at all if my family hadn’t told me about it growing up (according to them, I already did this when I was a small baby). I once had someone record it and it’s a kind of noise I sometimes find myself wanting to make when I need to wind down and relax, so I know what it sounds like even though I never realise it happens when I’m asleep.

    Every single person I’ve ever shared a room with (or even just a flat or some vicinity) has complained about it. It must really be pretty unbearable to sleep near me and I’ve never met anyone who could do it (at least not without problems) – it’s not the kind of sound you can just tune out.

    So I’d like to ask the coworker who’s in charge of organising the trip for a single room. But I’m not really sure how to do that. I fear the others will think I just want to get out of sharing or get special treatment. I also don’t know how much/what exactly to say – I find the whole thing pretty embarrassing and also don’t think it’s generally my coworkers’ business (although I will disclose it if I absolutely have to). But I would really like to clear that up before anything is set in stone because I’ve experienced three people (in a social setting, though, not a professional one) preferring to sleep in a tiny bed over being in the same room as me and that was unpleasant for them because they didn’t get a lot of sleep and absolutely mortifying for me, so not something I’d like to repeat.

    1. soitgoes*

      Could you say that you snore really loudly, that it’s been a problem on past business trips, and you’d like to avoid repeats if possible?

      1. AnonToday*

        This. No one has to know the specifics of the noise. Just say that it’s bad enough that your room mates and any others you have shared a room with have not been able to sleep near you, and you would hate for any coworkers to be sleep deprived.

        1. Newhouse*

          I really don’t know why I didn’t think of this, it is so obvious – thanks so much, soitgoes and AnonToday! Now I only hope they don’t think I’m just trying to get out of sharing. *fingers crossed*

    2. fposte*

      Agreed on the snoring, but if you have to pay the difference in the room cost yourself, is that okay?

      1. Newhouse*

        Yes, I’d be willing to do that. I do have the money so that wouldn’t be a problem, and I’d really vastly prefer that to depriving others of their sleep and embarrassing myself in the process.

        1. fposte*

          Then I think that makes it a supremely reasonable request. And I’m with Treena Kravm in the approach to take if you still have to share; matter of fact and straightforward and accommodating.

    3. Treena Kravm*

      I would ask as suggested above, and pay the difference if possible. If that doesn’t work and you must share, I would just be upfront with your roommates, be light-hearted about it and bring earplugs and tell them they’re welcome to use them if they need them.

    4. HR Manager*

      If others have complained about it before, why not bring it up with HR or your manager, that since this has been a re-occurring complaint from employees in the past, might it be possible you get your own room? If it’s an issue they know about, I don’t think this will be taken as an unwarranted privilege being asked for, but saving yourself and the other employee from embarrassment and awkwardness.

      1. Newhouse*

        Ah, I must have worded that strangely – with “every single person I’ve ever shared a room with” I meant people in my personal life, be it sleepovers when I was a child, friends on whose couch I crashed, or relatives I stayed with for family events. I’ve never been on a trip with my coworkers before, so there are no other employees who know about this issue.

        1. Marcy*

          If it makes you feel better, you are not alone. I have been known to tap my husband on the shoulder repeatedly in the middle of the night until he responds and then I ask totally bizarre questions like “Do you have any more red circles?”. I also laugh in my sleep but it comes out more as a groan or growl. I flap my arms around and I have elbowed my husband in the face. I also move my legs around like I am running. Luckily my work always gets us our own rooms for conferences but if they didn’t, I would pay for my own for this very reason.

  48. Plaintiff's Lawyer*

    I’m looking for guidance on how to handle situations where I get calls from potential minority clients (I am white) where they think there is discrimination and unfortunately there is not yet enough legal evidence for me to take their case. I usually explain how high the standards are and that they should take a “watch, wait, document” approach and call if the situation escalates but I can’t help but feel awful that I’m telling them “sorry, you have to suck it up” when clearly what is happening, even if not provably illegal, is wrong. I fear I just come across as another person that doesn’t understand or just covered in white privilege.

    I’ll give you a usual example. Client calls. Her coworker is really short with her, dismisses her ideas, gets mad at her over every little error. Treats her differently. He has no control over her though so he hasn’t taken any adverse employment action. He also hasn’t said anything race based or done anything blatant enough for her to prove that he is treating her differently due to her race. His defense if called on by HR will be “I just don’t like her, it has nothing to do with her race.” Nothing illegal there. Yet she knows, the real reason he just doesn’t like her and gets annoyed at her ideas is because he has a subconscious problem with black people.

    I can refer her to HR, or her state human rights commission (that likely won’t touch it) but I won’t take it because there is no money it and nothing provably illegal. She feels like no one cares that someone is being racist to her in the workplace and that is illegal. I’m left saying, yeah, its illegal but we can’t help you.

    My question is – how can I convey, as a white person, that I take her concerns seriously and that I empathize and that I’m giving her the best legal advice I can, not just blowing her off because she is black or suggesting that the racism is in her head. I try to make clear “you are most likely right but it would be very difficult to prove.”

    2. fposte*

      Oh, that’s a really interesting thing. I’m not sure your being a minority would change the question as much as you think, even though it feels like it might; I think it’s about how people want to be listened to and validated, and about you finding ways to make them feel like that’s happened even if their case doesn’t currently meet the standard for action. The other thing is that it’s going to be hard to leave people happy when you’re basically telling them they can’t get help, and I don’t think you can really change that. That’s going to be hard on you, too.

      It also sounds like you don’t get a lot of guidance on these conversations, and I think there could be some; maybe develop a structure to follow. (hildi, where are you? This is totally your wheelhouse here.) Maybe start with sympathy and listening, move on to an outline of what a successful case looks like and what prep for one generally entails, so it’s not just you saying something about their particular case but giving them information about what success looks like. And then maybe something like “Right now, what you’re describing isn’t at the successful case level, and I’m sorry because it sounds bad; it might be if other things or documenting happen, and we want to hear from you again if so.”

      But that may be pretty much what you’re already doing, so if so I go back to the wearing aspect of a job where people are going to come for help and not get it; it’s just hard on both sides.

      1. hildi*

        First a few questions that popped into my mind that might affect what else I’d suggest. So…

        Plaintiff’s Lawyer,
        1). Has she ever given you any indication that she feels like you aren’t working hard enough on her behalf soley because she’s black and you’re white? If she already has the notion and has made it known to you, then showing empathy and having her believe it I think become a bit trickier. Not impossible though.

        2). Are you allowed to describe some details (without giving away identifying information) of other similar cases? To me, this is essentially like telling her a story and stories are very powerful ways to communicate, particularly on an emotionally charged topic like this one. My thought here is that you could compare the details of her case to ones that have either been successful or not successful, which would help her draw her own conclusions about the likelihood of her own success. Sometimes that’s easier to swallow than someone simply telling me with facts that this is why or why not something will happen.

        I have some more thoughts but will wait to hear back from you.

        1. Plaintiff's Lawyer*

          As to number one, in most circumstances, no, I haven’t had the indication the person at issue thought I was treating them differently. What prompted this question was a person who made it more explicit she thought that. This was just a phone consult though. I can’t give you too many details. It was not a work situation but a situation where she would still have rights. She was being treated particularly poorly but nothing was blatantly racial. She had already gone through an internal complaint process and I was trying to explain why their conclusion was legally correct and she wasn’t likely to get a different result by hiring a lawyer. Part of that is because “it might not be racism” and when there is doubt, it has to be proved by a preponderance of the evidence (51%) before they can take action. She felt like no one really cared and didn’t do a real investigation and that was because even if what she said was 100% true, it wasn’t enough to be actionable. So her response to my advice about observing/documenting was “but I’m afraid to go there now because I know he (person in power) has animosity towards me.” Sadly, at this time the only 100% remedy to that is “then you leave the situation” which gives him what he wants. I totally understand someone not wanting to subject themselves to another incident they find personal insulting just to get enough evidence to punish that person. He should have to go, not her but its just not enough yet to rise to a violation of the law. My advice was you keep going. Let him get mad at you and finally say what he really feels and then you get to get rid of him and you stay.

          I’ll give you an analogy to the situation instead. It would be like she was on the school committee board and another board member was a jerk to her. He insulted her, dismissed her, yelled at her but never said anything race or gender based. He claimed it was just a heated argument. She wants him removed from the board. Town lawyers say “this doesn’t rise to that.” She doesn’t want to go to meetings with him. There were no threats, just general meanness. She can step down or go to meetings with him because there isn’t enough to remove him yet. Again, not the real situation, just an analogy.

          1. hildi*

            I’m crying. I’m sobbing. I just spend like the last 45 min typing up some ideas and it’s gone. My idiotic internet froze on me and kicked me out. I’m going to go eat something and then I’ll come back and try to reacreate it…….

            1. Plaintiff's Lawyer*

              Thanks for your input. Take your time. I can come back over the weekend and check too since I know a reply will be coming. I hate when I lose a post!

              1. hildi*

                Ok. Well, I probably talked too much in my last response, so maybe that was the universe trying to tell me to shut up and get to the point (I need that reminder more often).

                I just want to speak to the empathy piece about when you have to have another conversation with her to continue to deliver unsatisfying news in her case (and sorry if you know all this anyway – you seem very personable)

                Effective empathy is conveying to the person that you UNDERSTAND their emotion (frustrated, guilty, scared, inconvenienced, angry, etc.) and also that you understand WHY they feel that way. Empathy statements convey that you are interested and concerned, and that you understand. Nothing more, nothing less. It certainly isn’t condoning a person’s behavior. It’s not an obligation to start a big kumbaya therapy session. You don’t have to take on their emotion for them. It’s also not agreeing that they even have a reason to feel that way (it might be the biggest crock of shit you’ve ever heard and a reasonable person has no right to feel that way….but that kind of thinking does you no good here). An empathy statement essentially helps you tell them: “I can see that this is emotional for you and I can see what made you feel that way.”

                So here’s an imagined conversation I could see happening about your original question above:

                {First, the tone is key here. You don’t want to sound accusatory or challenging. You want to invite her into a conversation. Sound sincere and interested in her response. I imagine a kindly old grandmother taking my hands into hers, her eyes crinkling at the corners, calling me ‘honey’ and offering me a cookie. Clearly, you would want to avoid that, but that’s the atmosphere I’m going for here. Although cookies could help}

                “I can see how this whole thing really has caused you considerable upset and I’m sorry for what you’ve been through. This is a rotten way to be treated and I can understand that you are hesitant to want to return to the workplace for more of the same kind of treatment. Ultimately, because of the reasons we’ve talked about earlier, the law isn’t providing any opportunity for us to move forward against What’s-His-Name. I’d be happy to go over that again with you if you have more questions or if there’s anything I could clarify. {It’s up to you whether you want to bring up what the other person said about her not feeling you were helping her. You could use that to introduce the next part or just dive right in without it}
                I also was speaking with XX on the phone and she mentioned that you might be feeling like you’re not getting the help that you expected from me. {I absolutely wouldn’t say the words, white, black, race, color, etc. Those are hot and inflammatory phrases. Regardless of the reason she gives for feeling like she’s getting the shaft, the underlying issue is that she’s not being treated like she feels she deserves. So I’d keep the focus on that}. It’s very important to me that you are comfortable with the level of interest/attention I’m giving you. I really am trying to help you, the law is what’s getting in our way!! Haha. Can I provide you any more context or background for the conclusions I’ve reached and why I offered the suggestions I have?

                HER: “Well, I do think that you don’t care about me as much as your other clients because you are white and I’m black. Etc. etc. (if that’s how you think she’s seeing this)

                “I’m so sorry I gave that impression. That is not at all how I feel. The reason I practice law is to help people and to see justice served to everyone (if that’s true! Haha). It’s been frustrating for me to review your case because I can see the situations you’ve endured and I do wish we had some recourse at this point in time. Like I hope I conveyed before, the law has certain requirements that have to be met before it can protect people in your situation. Here are some examples of what might give us some more legal options: {Maybe at this point go over some of the things that would advance her case: If What’s-His-Name uses these words, if he suggests this, if he says this, if he physically touches you, or whatever.}

                So with all that being said, would you be willing to go through your options again? Maybe if we spend a bit of time thinking about what’s available to you at this point and the pros and cons of each, you’ll feel more comfortable making the best decision for you right now.

                {Go through options; spend some time ensuring she feels she’s part of deciding some of this, instead of something that’s being given or done to her. Her buy-in for the options is very key.}

                The major caveat to all of this that I fully understand is………I am so painfully not a lawyer, so I have no earthly clue if this conversation could even take place. I recognize my examples and solutions may not be realistic in the legal world. However, I do know how to phrase things to another human person in a way that helps them trust me more, so that piece of it I offer up with confidence. I hope any of this helped. Want to hear an update!!

                3. Not So NewReader*

                  Nice job on that, hildi!

                  I definitely see a huge teaching moment buried in the lady’s questions. And knowledge is power.
                  I am not familiar with what constraints you have as an attorney, OP, but perhaps you can start and maintain a list of resources for people (in these instances where they do not quite have a case) that you could pull out and refer them to additional information/websites/resources/groups.

                  You could say “You know, I get a lot of questions along these lines you describe. So what I have done is made a list of resources for people to look at, perhaps something would be useful for you.” Even if you have a short list, the fact that you made this list, is another way of expressing that you see the concern and you are concerned, also.

    3. LillianMcGee*

      When in doubt, I refer to human rights commission and say if there’s a finding, please call back. (I work in housing law where, similarly, a lot of our potential clients are minorities with discrimination issues.) We simply don’t have the resources to do an investigation (nonprofit) and that’s what I say to explain to potential clients why we can’t take the case.

    4. HR Manager*

      I’m not sure you can control the other person’s frustration level with not having other avenues to pursue, but I think if you take the time to listen to her, acknowledge her frustrations, and then explain the difference between day to day conflicts and issues versus the legal standard for evidence of discrimination, this might help.

      You can fully acknowledge that her perceptions may be very real, but reaching the point of pursuing a lawsuit is entirely different and that only when that step is close would talking to an attorney be prudent. If need be, frame it in terms of cost. Tell her that the time it takes to amass the evidence required is long and hard, and it doesn’t make financial sense to engage an expensive attorney during those stages. Only when that is done, do you want to plunk those dollars on an attorney. It sounds like you do offer her the more immediate recourse of EEO, HR, legal dept ,etc. so it’s not leaving them without some recourse.

    5. Renee*

      When I was a divorce attorney there were frequent situations where something not good was probably happening, but there wasn’t enough evidence to influence the judge to make a change. I would often say to clients, “unfortunately, it is about perception and not reality” to explain to them that the judge (or other decision maker) was not privy to all of the background and perspective of the client without undercutting that the experience was real. I also tried to speak outside the lawyer box and communicate that I empathized with the customer and the situation. This was also a good phrase to use for clients that indicated they were going to do something that was not going to look good to a judge, whether it was a good decision or not (denying Skype visitation outright because the child would fidget, for example). Explaining to the client that the problem had to be visible to the outsider making the decision also helped guide the client on what to document and how to document it.

  49. super anon*

    Not a question but I had a job interview yesterday that was pretty bad and raised red flags all over the place. To start, the company gave me less than 24 hours notice for me interview, which would be fine, except I had to prepare an ice breaker and a facilitation plan to facilitation and guide a discussion group of people I’ve new met on one of a list of very vague topics. Oh, and the conversation group was 25 min. They said in the interview that you often have to do presentations at the very last minute on topics you might know nothing about – so I wonder if this was a covert kind of test to see how I do under that kind of pressure? Eh.

    Other red flag included the interviewers not answering any of my questions in a manner of a political candidate running for president. When I asked what are some of the challenges the role would have, they answered with “everyone is different so we have all different challenges!”, while true is not really an informative answer. When I asked about turnover in the role, they listed how long certain people had been at the company, which isn’t very helpful on it’s own, you know? When I asked what the career path for my role would be, the response was “Well, it’s a global company so if you’re willing to move, the possibilities are endless!”. The few answers I did get were major red flags – that everyone is *very* hard workers and not to expect any overtime even though I’ll be working a lot (obviously you don’t get OT on salary but who brings that up in an interview?), that no one in the office socializes inside or outside of it, and that I would have to see 80 students for advising daily. Oh, and the kicker? Instead of sending students in crisis to mental health services they want everything dealt with in house, and their concern about me was that I wouldn’t be willing to undergo PD to improve my ability to deliver counselling! If you have a counselling service populated with actual counsellors, why on earth would you want someone who isn’t trained at all to be dealing with cases? That seems like a major liability for me and the institution!

    Needless to say, I’m sending an email to tell withdraw my application. I don’t think I would even last one day in the environment.

      1. super anon*

        It isn’t – that’s how. There is absolutely no way in hell you could see 80 students a day and give worthwhile academic advising (and that’s not even getting into the mental health aspects they want their advisors to cover as well). Performance in the position was evaluated by how many students passed their courses, re-enrolled, and went on to be successful in later years, which seems to me to be a way to set up someone for failure no matter which way you look at it.

    2. Snork Maiden*

      Yikes! The only way this could be worse is if you had to prepare a meal and feed everyone at the interview.

    4. Case of the Mondays*

      I initially read that as you asking the interviewers their thoughts on different potential presidential candidates and they didn’t want to answer. I was thinking DUH! That question is way out of line unless you are funded by a particular party or something. Then I re-read it.

    5. JMegan*

      80 students in an 8-hour workday is 10 per hour. Each student gets six whole minutes with a counsellor, assuming that each and every one of those appointments starts and ends exactly on time.

      Not to mention, that leaves the counsellors exactly zero minutes to get a drink of water or use the washroom, never mind any sort of a lunch break.

      I know you know all that, and I know you’re withdrawing from the application process anyway, so this is all moot. But seriously, has anyone in that office ever actually done the math to see how ridiculous that is? SMH.

  50. Sick of It*

    What do you do when an employee is frequently sick?

    I’ve been overseeing (matrix management) an employee, Mary, who is continually missing work and coming to work sick. This poor woman seems to be sick all the time. She doesn’t claim to have any disabilities and can’t claim FMLA because she’s been with us for less than a year. You can tell she’s working really hard to try to compensate for all the absences. She’s also broken down in tears on a few occasions, telling me how much she loves her job and wants to keep it. She’s burns through all her sick and vacation time as soon as it accrues, and then wants to work from home while sick. Or, Mary comes to work sick and spreads germs. On a few occasions, co-workers have blamed Mary for their colds and flues (not provable, but definitely a possibility). I think we need to let Mary go, but I feel like a jerk for it. Any other ideas? Or advice on the best way to do it?

    1. Meg Murry*

      To be fair – this has been a horrid year for colds and flus. I have co-workers who have been going on weeks 3 and 4 of complications due to the respiratory flu, despite multiple visits to their doctors, and I saw a statistic today that said the flu shot was only 23% effective this year.

      Is she hourly or salary? Could she work a few more hours when she is feeling better to try to make up some of the slack for days she has missed? Is she otherwise a good worker? Do you have any way to try to at least keep her until spring and see if it gets better. If she’s actually sick, not abusing the sick time/vacation time privileges or using them all up on her sick kids as well, it seems terrible to let her go and start the hiring/training process all over again, IMO.

    2. Amber Rose*

      Could you talk to her? I’ve has this conversation with a boss before, due to a policy where missing two days in a 6 month rolling period meant a write up. Rather than making it about her, something like, “you’re a hard worker and we appreciate your contributions but you have a lot of absences. Is there a change we could make to help you while you’re here?”

      If you’re close enough it wouldn’t be awkward you could try “Do you have any plans for reducing how much time you take off?” Or something of the sort.

    3. Zillah*

      Hmm. I guess I have a couple questions.

      1) How good of an employee is Mary? I get that she has absences, but when she’s there, is she a star performer?

      2) Has this been an ongoing issue since you hired her, or a more recent development? How often is she missing work?

      3) Is letting her work from home sometimes a possibility? YMMV, but my experience as someone with a bad immune system is that often, it’s the act of having to get up, get dressed, commute in, and sit at my desk that makes things undoable for me, rather than just doing the work. If Mary’s work can reasonably be done from home and you don’t think it would be too disruptive, it might make sense to let her.

      1. GOG11*

        +1 about #3. Sometimes I can still work, but I don’t want to subject myself, my coworkers, and the population we serve to my loud hacking. Other times, I can work just fine, but I have to take meds several times a day and the immediate side effects just make it harder to be presentable (but I’d be able to work just fine). Usually I just come in anyways as I’m not contagious but I feel pretty exposed/uncomfortable when I do.

    4. fposte*

      So how much has she actually been out? In the recent post we had places where burning through sick leave would happen on day 5. What percentage of the business year has she been in the office?

      I do think you have to decide more clearly than it sounds like you have whether the office approach is that it’s okay for Mary to stay home when sick and she shouldn’t come into the office, or that she’s taking too much sick leave and is understandably feeling that she needs to come in. (But I would shut co-worker complaints about her illness down. She’s got viruses that are in the gen pop, and the co-workers are spreading them too but conveniently forgetting that.)

    5. Lily in NYC*

      How often does she call in? And it sounds like she actually is sick, not faking it, right? If she isn’t going over her sick leave and she is actually sick, then how can you justify firing her?

    6. Sick of It*

      I’ll try to answer all the questions here.

      Mary’s illnesses have been occurring since she started last summer. She’s salary exempt. She always takes the 2 days of the PTO that accrue every month. She works from home 4-5 days a month while sick. Only part of her job can be done remotely. If there’s no work that can be done remotely and she doesn’t have any PTO accrued, she drags herself into work to avoid going without pay. When she tries to work while sick (either at home or in the office), her work suffers and she makes mistakes. When she’s well, she’s a good performer. Unfortunately, it seems like she’s almost always in some stage of sickness – coming down with something, full blown sick, or trying to recover.

      I’ve talked to Mary about this multiple times, but haven’t been able to reach any long-term workable solutions. I’ve already made some changes to the job roles on the project so that she can do more work from home and so that we’re not as reliant on her, but this is somewhat unfair to the rest of the team.

      1. Zillah*

        Yikes.

        Are you sure that she doesn’t have some kind of disability? It sounds like she spends at least 1/3 of her time sick enough for it to get in the way of her normal routine, which is very much not normal. That’s important on a management level, but it could also be important on a legal level.

        Have you offered to let her take some amount of time (4 weeks, 6 weeks, whatever) unpaid to try to get to the bottom of what’s causing this? (There may not be an answer, of course, but maybe having the time to see some doctors would help.) It sounds like she’s a good worker and you don’t really want to fire her over something that she doesn’t have control over, but at the same time, you need someone who can do the work.

        1. Sick of It*

          I’m not positive that Mary doesn’t have a disability. She hasn’t claimed one. And the sicknesses have varied (stomach flu, respiratory, colds, headaches, etc). The only explanation that she’s given is that her young kids bring home a lot of bugs from school. Mary comes to work obviously sick quite a bit, so she’s not faking it. I haven’t offered an arrangement like you suggested, but she’s been very resistant to going without pay for any amount of time.

          You’re right that I don’t want someone to lose their job over something they can’t control. I feel really bad about the whole thing. But I do need someone to do the job, and I keep thinking that this situation sucks for the rest of the team. There’s no winners.

          1. Zillah*

            I know it’s uncomfortable, but have you explicitly talked to her about it with her, or has she just not volunteered that she has a disability? It can be really hard to bring that up, especially when you’re worried you might be discriminated against, but I think that might be important information for you to have. IANAD, but what you’re describing just doesn’t seem normal to me. The fact that there are a variety of issues doesn’t change that, actually – I can think of a number of chronic health issues that could present in all the ways you’re talking about.

            Regardless – I’m not sure what field you’re in, but are there jobs that she could theoretically do from home more often, even if that’s not this job? You could look into a PIP and ultimately letting her go if there’s no improvement, but also have either a generous severance or a more lengthy notice period so she can find a new job.

            I mean… this sucks so much, but ultimately, sometimes certain jobs just aren’t right for you when you have health issues. I’m in that position, too. It’s unfortunate, but there it is, you know?

            1. fposte*

              Though just to be clear: the employer *cannot* bring up the possibility of a disability. That’s all on the employee.

              I’m with you on the rest of it, though. I’m really lucky I’m in the job that I’m in; health stuff means I really couldn’t do a time-in-the-chair job any more.

              1. Zillah*

                Right – sorry, that totally came off totally wrong, and thanks for pointing that out! I guess I’m wondering how clear the conversations have been – like, has there even been a point where she could bring it up? Does she understand that her job is in danger?

                I’m also grappling with some health stuff that’s making me worried that it’ll be really hard to find a job that I’ll be able to excel at, even though I’m a hard worker and generally pretty quick on the uptake. :( So my heart goes out to Mary… but sometimes there’s no way around it.

                1. fposte*

                  I also think, as somebody coming out of a bad health patch myself, that what makes it even tougher is that not only don’t you know if things could be better, it can be really hard to imagine that they will; it seems like life will always be like this. And yet often they do get better. Which is great, but it would sure be nice to be assured of that in advance.

          2. Malissa*

            That’s awful. Has Mary been seeing a doctor? I’m actually concerned for her well being. I had a coworker who was like that. Turned out she had so much more going on than just a cold. Always good for a person to get checked out when they seem to be always catching something.

            Anyway I think you should sit down with Mary and present her with the facts. You’ve missed 12 out of the last 45 days and you’ve come in so sick on 7 days that I am concerned about the quality of work you can do while you are here.
            Also it is affecting your work in the areas of X, Y , and Z.
            Going forward do you have a plan on how to deal with this?

            And let Mary talk. There might still be a solution that you haven’t thought of yet.

          3. Observer*

            It sounds like you need to have a conversation with her which starts something like this “I know that you are trying your hardest to perform while sick. But, it has become a significant performance problem for us. I have no interest in prying into your medical or personal business, but I need to see a reasonable plan for getting this under control.”

            Oh, and by the way, I know plenty of parents of families with lots of young children, and most of them do not get sick anywhere near this often. So, no that’s not a good reason, and if she doesn’t realize it, you’ll be doing her a favor by pointing that out if brings it up. (If it’s her doctor saying that, then she needs a new doctor, but that’s obviously not something you can get into.)

      2. Lily in NYC*

        Oh boy, that’s more time than I expected. This is a really tough situation and I admit I would probably be a little resentful if I worked with her. I would definitely consider letting her go. But first I would give her a clear ultimatum about what’s expected of her and maybe have her sign something, sort of like a PIP.

        1. Sick of It*

          I think a PIP is probably a good idea at this point. The absences are a problem and the whole situation is definitely affecting her performance. At least with a PIP, I’d feel like we gave her more than a fair shot to improve and we have also dotted all our i’s.

      3. Chriama*

        It kind of sounds like her immune system is compromised for some reason. If she had some sort of illness or condition, would she be protected for medical disability? If she already knows about it but hasn’t shared, I don’t know how you can legally get her to talk about it, but look into that. If she doesn’t know any underlying cause, is that a conversation you could have with her? Could you give her some paid time off to get a diagnosis? I’m in Canada so I don’t know how applicable this is to you, but we have extended sick benefits that kick in after 3 consecutive sick days for long-term issues. Is there any sort of protection like this for her? Even paying half time, or allowing her to overdraw her accrued days might be helpful.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      This could have been me. I was going on one to two hours of sleep a night taking care of a sick parent, plus working 40 hr weeks, plus life stuff. Yeah, this did not go well. Once I started getting sick I could not stop. As you are saying, head cold one day, stomach pain the next day. My insides were shot and my brain was fried.

      My bosses called me in the office. “Out of the last x work days you have been out y days. We need you here. What can be done to fix this?” You can ask and see what she says.

      I don’t know if you can or if you are even allowed to, but maybe she could work part time until she gets things straightened out?

      1. Sick of It*

        It’s totally possible that personal issues are affecting her health, which causes more stress, and then it all becomes a cycle. I remember going through that in grad school and it was hell. The thing that got me through it was those wonderfully long academic breaks.

  51. AnonToday*

    Have you ever had coworkers shadow your job? Would it bother you to be expected to allow this?

    I am not an intern at my work but am using my entry-level position for internship credit at school. I eventually want to be a freelancer in this industry and my boss suggested it would be a good idea to shadow some of the other departments to get a sense of how things work. I got positive responses and had helpful shadowing sessions with a couple of people in one department. I’ve yet to have any sessions in other departments. One person suggested some times, agreed to a session and accepted a calendar invite but when I showed up said “[my boss] just kind of threw this at us,” said they didn’t have anything helpful for me to see, would come get me when they had something like that in, and never actually did. He acted a bit overwhelmed by the idea of it, or like I was intruding on his schedule, but all I expected was to sit there and watch something. Another person got back to me with a day that she was available but never responded after I sent her an invite. My boss sent the original email which explained why I wanted to shadow and requested that they send me times that would work in the next two weeks, so it’s not like she demanded that anyone make time for it tomorrow.

    I’m wondering how much I should push back on this? I don’t really want to force people to let me watch them do their jobs if they are so opposed to that, but my boss wants to meet to discuss what I learned from shadowing and I feel like she’s going to ask me why I wasn’t more assertive in getting these sessions set up.

    1. ExceptionToTheRule*

      Here’s my discomfort with potential job shadows (we generally get kids, so YMMV) the bulk of what I do all day is boring as hell. Then there’s the two hours or so of my day that everyone wants to see, but that’s the time I really need to focus and might not be in the best position to explain things.

      If you’re expecting to spend all day with people, that might be part of the problem. Maybe what you ask for should be more of an hour of their time for a Q&A about what they do. You might get a more positive response.

      1. Snork Maiden*

        I also have a “cool” job that high school students are also interested in. Job shadowing is personally exhausting for me. I’d much rather do a Q & A with them, this is an excellent suggestion. Having someone watch you, even if they’re trying to be as inobtrusive as possible, is unnerving, and explaining every single step of my thought process – I have a “creative” job – is tiring.

      2. AnonToday*

        I have actually just been trying to schedule 1 hour with people. Just some time to watch them do a process that would be helpful for me to understand, and ask questions for 5 minutes. And if they said they didn’t even have time for that, I would understand…they seem to be agreeing and then backing out, though.

        1. CheeryO*

          Ahh, I saw this after I replied. That doesn’t sound like an unreasonable request at all, but I wouldn’t ask again after someone backs out. You can show your boss that you tried, and IMO, the ball is in their court if they want to push it further.

      3. Judy*

        Yep.

        Here I am on a 2 hour conference call. Here I am in a 1 hour status meeting with my manager. OOHHH, now I get to go out to the lab to check my testing. Here I am answering emails. Now I get to write a few lines of code.

      4. CheeryO*

        +1

        My university is setting up a shadowing program for students that I volunteered for, and they are pushing short sessions (2-3 hours) with as much structure as possible (e.g., tour of the building with a few introductions, a little bit of desk work and explanation of basic job duties, a meeting, and coffee/lunch). They might not get the most realistic idea of what the day-to-day is like, but it’s efficient. Maybe you could suggest a similar itinerary when you first contact people. I know that I’d be very overwhelmed at the idea of someone shadowing me with no real plan, since my job is boring and I am so not used to verbalizing my thought processes.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      With a lot of jobs, shadowing can be tough — many people are basically at their computer typing things all day, which isn’t very interesting to watch (and it can feel weird having someone sitting there staring at you while you answer emails, try to compose a report, etc.). Could that be the issue? If so, you could explain to your boss that you think the issue is that people are having trouble thinking of things that would be worthwhile for you to observe, and maybe instead of shadowing a person for half a day, you could instead sit in on a handful of meetings that you normally wouldn’t be in (stuff that isn’t confidential, obviously)?

      1. AnonToday*

        I’ve actually just been trying to schedule an hour with someone from each department, which is why it’s a bit confusing to me. I still understand if someone doesn’t have time or is just incredibly bugged by someone watching them work, but I wish they would give me a definite no in that case. (I suspect they just don’t want to do it, but felt they couldn’t say “no” to my boss so they’re hoping I don’t press things.) Shadowing is part of our training process for most departments, but the ones that have been difficult about it are the smaller departments with no entry level positions and no training programs.

        I would be open to sitting in on meetings, but the tasks that I am trying to shadow are much more relevant to my future goals. (My goal is to be a freelance teapot constructor, so I want to shadow how the teapot project managers choose and communicate with their freelance constructors, how the quoting specialist estimates the time and resources needed to produce a teapot from the teapot blueprint sent in by a potential client, and how the materials to build the teapot are prepped internally before being sent to the teapot constructor. The meetings would be less hands-on tasks and more about establishing the general strategy for a given teapot project.)

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I think this is great that you have a list of things you would like to see. Can you build that list into your request and people who are doing those activities can self-select to call you and arrange something?

  52. Former Diet Coke Addict*

    Who wants a story about my work? This week my boss has decided he wants us to start making fifty cold calls A DAY. Although we’ve pointed out that our customer base is mostly teachers who are teaching during the day, he wants us to branch out and start making truly cold calls to other industries. Fifty a day. I have no idea when we’re supposed to do our other work. On top of this, the pipes froze Tuesday and we had no water all day, and my boss’s response was “If you feel you just can’t get by without water or plumbing, you can go home” while rolling his eyes. How silly of us to want things like water and operating toilets!

    I had an interview on Monday but it was very strange. I felt prepared and my answers were solid, but the answers I was getting to my questions were somewhat red flaggy. I asked “So can you tell me what a typical day or week looks like in this position?” “Oh, it’s so different, it’s always changing, nothing is ever the same.” But what kind of tasks? “They just change all the time!” And a similar runaround when I asked what hours people normally work. “It’s very changeable, can’t really say!” Hmm.

    It’s been a bad week all around.

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        Around here it is. When a water main burst our whole building closed (and my company leases floors, we don’t occupy the whole building), and so did most businesses in the area. Local laws will vary, but FDCA, check with your local health department about occupancy requirements for office buildings, especially toilets, sinks, and fire sprinklers. (And maybe call your local fire department about that last one — trust me, many professional or volunteer firefighters would LOVE to get questions about fire codes and fire safety.)

    2. Sascha*

      My response to the water comment might have been, “Sure, just let me get my pee bottle since we can’t use the toilets. Is it alright if I leave it out?”

      I’m very sorry though, I hate talking on the phone and cold calls are the stuff of my nightmares. I hope you get a new job soon.

        1. fposte*

          We just had our second workplace flood from a frozen pipe, which was swell (no, wait, third–it’s only the second in my current location). I’m hypervigilant on frozen pipes.

    4. HR Manager*

      Yuck, non operating toilets is unsanitary and would probably be a safety violation. That needed an HR intervention or senior management intervention.

      Your interview sounds weird too, so sorry that you had a bad week. I will add that though that a previous sales team I supported had to make 80 calls a day, so 50 is certainly do-able. Asking for teachers is odd, but if the boss is expanding the potential clientele, then it might work.

      1. Former Diet Coke Addict*

        The thing is that my days are already pretty full with other sales–I know that many calls is possible each day but not for us with eight hours of work in there too. Our business is education so we’re totally une quipped to be reaching out to an entire different industry–plus we already have a job lot of work without magically coming up with the time to start telemarketing too.

  53. Rye-Ann*

    Hi all, I have a simple question: in your experience, if a position is temporary, it will usually state that on the job posting, correct? Phrased another way, if a posting doesn’t say that it will be a temp position, then can you generally assume that it’s not?

    1. some1*

      “Phrased another way, if a posting doesn’t say that it will be a temp position, then can you generally assume that it’s not?”

      Yes, unless it’s posted by a temp agency/recruiter. Sometimes you will recognize the agency’s name, or it will have “Staffing” in the name, or the posting will say something about “our client”.

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      It should be a permanent, full time position unless it states otherwise, but there’s nothing stopping oblivious or unethical companies from violating that. IMO, unless they are horrified by their blunder and state that they’ve already asked for it to be corrected, I’d walk out if I was told that a position was temporary or part-time but there was no hint of that in the listing.

  54. New freelancer*

    Any suggestions for content writer portfolios? I have a good amount of content around the web (mostly web articles and PDF ebooks) and I want to create a portfolio of my best work. My concern is if the articles get pulled/go dead. Should I “print” everything to PDF and create an offline portfolio? What are all the cool content freelancers doing these days?

    1. Dynamic Beige*

      Print it to PDF, take screengrabs (SnagIt will scroll a whole page http://www.techsmith.com/snagit.html), do whatever you can to record it. I’m not a writer, but like you say, articles are pulled (or put behind paywalls), links get broken. Having a backup copy/images of your article on the site can only help in the future, whatever you decide to do with your portfolio down the road.

    1. ProductiveDyslexic*

      Realize that there are only so many hours in the day, and that an imperfect bit of work can be polished up into something *really adequate* in a way that having no result can’t. Set a reasonable time limit for a given task. Get out the stopwatch, or time tracker app, and do the task within the time limit. Feel warm glow of accomplishment.

      This is what I do. I use a pomodoro timer app.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Compare to previous similar situations.

      Take the most difficult aspect of the paralysis and find someone whose opinion you respect and talk to them about the most difficult parts.

      Some things lend themselves well to be broken into parts. If you are really lucky you can do the first part and rough out the last part. This gives you the beginning and the end. You can sometimes piece together what to do about the middle parts. Since the end is not set in stone, you can adjust it as you finish up.

      Sometimes I get stuck analyzing something for too long because of Stupid Unrelated Thing. So I clean the refrigerator that is driving me nuts. Then I go back to my check book and, by some miracle, I suddenly see why I could not get it to balance before. Sure, I got the Stupid Unrelated Thing off my mind.

      Many times analysis paralysis is simply mental fatigue. Make sure you get extra rest if this is happening often or if Big Project is causing repeated bouts. During the day go and do a small task ( 10-15 minutes tops) that you KNOW for a fact you will be successful in finishing. These are two examples of using incubation time. This is time where Problem is not at the forefront of your thinking but just running in the background. Incubation time is cool stuff.

    3. Beezus*

      Thanks guys! My most recent issue was a project that was supposed to look like a snapshot of our business situation that could be applied to making future business decisions. We used to do this particular snapshot once or twice a year, but this time it had been eighteen months due to turnover. Before, a team of three people did it together; this time, I was doing it alone (my first time) with one of the original trio coaching me a bit from the sidelines. The analysis process was not well documented from before, and my coach only remembered some stuff, so I was kinda making it up as I went along. It took two months to get through, and at the end, I could tell the results were partially incorrect but had no idea how to fix it (source data problems, not problems with my work). I spun my wheels for a couple of weeks, kept my boss in the loop about what the general holdup was, but was very very unwilling to release something that I knew was not 100% correct, and also, with the time lapse, now some things in our business had changed and the output I had couldn’t be cleanly applied anymore and I really wanted to start over (mentally hyperventilating here still :o)

      My boss came to me this week and said we had to release the results already, and what was it going to take to do it? I went over the issues… He told me to polish it by checking with a few people to see how the obvious source data issues should really look, and not to worry about the ones that aren’t obvious (*hives*). For the business changes, he told me to estimate the effects and apply my estimates and just document what my assumptions were and move on. I sent him a draft Thursday and he’s reviewing it for release now.

      I think part of my problem is that I have a hard time sacrificing accuracy for time spent, unless I have explicit permission to do that. I once spent the better part of two days putting together an analysis a previous boss asked for on Monday morning, only to find out he needed it for a meeting early Monday afternoon and had proceeded without it, and he really only wanted a sketch of the answer to the question, not a detailed analysis.

      I now make a point of asking a lot more questions about the scope and accuracy level required (should have asked more about this recent project, but I went into it thinking I was following an established process). I definitely have a tendency to overdo if left to my own devices. I don’t get the same satisfaction out of completing a quick and dirty project that I do out of really digging into something and turning out a thorough finished product. I also struggle with asking questions about scope and time investment without sounding like I’m trying to do as little work as possible, when really I’m just trying to save myself from wasting time doing more than the project calls for. I think I need to work in a conversation with my current boss about these tendencies, so he can help me work on them.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Not sounding like you are trying to do as little work as possible: Ask what the boss needs for the specific inquiry. I just had an inquiry that requires me to find A, B and C. Going to find A and B entails traveling to a separate and unfamiliar building. (Some one will have to unlock it and possibly unlock various rooms in the building for me.) Then going through records that are probably covered in mold. (Must remember to bring gloves.) It won’t get done this week.

        But hey, I have C on hand. I called the inquiring person and asked if C would work. I explained the process (in two sentences) that it would take to get A and B. I am waiting for a call back. At least he knows I am see the request and I have started The Search.
        In your case you could say “do you need a rough draft or do you need an accurate version?”

        There are some quick and dirty methods that are sufficient enough for what is needed. Sometimes a Q and D can be used temporarily.

        I think that this is going to be a function of time and a function of experiencing different projects. You will get a better sense of what to do in a while. Yes, you do need to have a convo with your boss, because what you are doing now could cause you problems in the long run. Think of what you have explained here as prep for explaining the same thing to your boss. You need help discerning when estimates are okay and when accuracy is an absolute necessity. I think your boss will be happy you asked.

  56. Ali*

    I have another question about networking. It’s not so much about how to use networking for a job, but about how to do the “give back”/”two-way street” part of it.

    I have a couple of contacts who have been very helpful to me. One is somebody whose opinion I’ve come to trust, and in particular, he exercises a lot of compassion and patience when it comes to some difficulties I’m having at work. He’s also showed how he can relate to things I’m going through, which helps me to see I’m not alone or that even successful people have their weak spots too. The thing is, once I get advice from people or we’ve built a relationship, I’m never sure how to feel like I’m only taking from them and not giving anything in return.

    When they’ve helped me, I’ve tried to do things like e-mail them back and say “Hey Apollo, thanks for your advice on X. I implemented it and it’s working great. I can see the difference in blah blah blah.” Or if I tell them I had an interview I’ll let them know how it went. I do send (generic, non-offensive) Christmas cards at the holidays. But beyond keeping the wall of contact open and doing the holiday card thing, I’m not sure if I’m doing enough for these people. Does that make sense? I don’t really spend time looking for industry articles (which the advice says is a good way to stay connected), and I don’t think these people are job searching, so I can’t send them listings or offer to introduce them to someone I know. If I notice something they did in their career, I will congratulate them, but what else is there?

    I don’t think my contacts are keeping score or thinking that I have nothing to offer, but I just don’t want to worry that I’m being selfish I guess.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Because of this blog, I often get asked for work advice from people vaguely in my network. I am usually happy to help, but it really rubs me the wrong way when someone asks for help repeatedly and doesn’t seem particularly appreciative of it. On the other hand, when someone (a) is openly appreciative and (b) circles back and tells me how things turned out, I’m happy to keep helping. It sounds like you’re doing both of those two things.

      The other thing I think you can do is to make the relationship about something other than them giving you help. Send them an article you genuinely think they’d enjoy, contact them occasionally about something other than work help, etc. And of course, if you do see opportunities where you could be helpful to them, take those!

      If you do that stuff, you’re fine.

    2. AnotherFed*

      And pay it forward! You may not be at a point now (or maybe even ever) where you can repay them in kind, but you will have opportunities to help and mentor other people. Remember the help you got, think about what was most useful to you, and pass similar assistance on to others when you are able.

  57. ?*

    I know there are a few fellow Feds on here. Any advice or suggestions in taking a second line supervisor job? I hated being a first line a few years ago but if I want to advance further in grade, I will have to take another supervision role instead of a functional one.

    1. AnotherFed*

      If you go for it, commit to it. Give your employees top cover, address performance issues rather than foisting them off to another place, and do what you say you will. Nothing sucks more than getting in a supervisor who is only there to make their high grade, or avoids dealing with the problems that are the reason they position is a high grade!

      1. ?*

        I wasn’t ready for the first supervisor job. Had just come from private industry and was in for a culture shock as I was the 5th supervisor in under a year. I didn’t know that part beforehand and they had issues since then keeping a supervisor for a year.

        The new position is the first supervisory position I’ve considered since then. I’m familiar with their issues, had to complete reviews and responses for higher ups when the last incumbent could not, and its not anything that can’t be fixed. It would have to happen at the division or higher due to hierarchy and political issues but they are getting closer to mission failure due to structure and technology not individuals. I would almost look forward to the fight I know that is going to be to get things in place so the employees can be successful.

  58. BL*

    I started a new job two weeks ago and fear I am in over my head. I was working as an individual contributor on a small team at a very, very large retail company and my new position is a director level position at a university. I now report directly to an AVP as opposed to having 4 levels of management between me and the VP. My new boss is very nice but in two weeks, he has only spoken to me once outside of meetings that included other people. In those meetings, he has given some vague instructions on what I should be doing but I don’t feel like I have any actual tools to do those things. I finally emailed him asking for some additional information so I can complete a high priority task but I haven’t heard back yet and he’s out of the office until Tuesday. Is this lack of communication a result of taking a higher level position, a quirk of the higher ed environment, or his own management style?

    A complicating factor is that I am currently pregnant. I spoke with him about it before accepting the offer and we negotiated a maternity leave arrangement that works for everyone. Now I have an OB appointment coming up and I have literally no idea how to handle it. Do I send an email again or try to catch him when he’s in the office or maybe schedule a meeting through his assistant? The last option seems oddly formal but I don’t want to mishandle the situation so early on.

    1. Jen*

      I’m guessing a combination of higher ed environment and his management style (based on my prev exp in higher ed). In part because they are usually so busy that most of their day is scheduled to the minute. Some (like my director was) are great about checking in with their staff regardless, but many aren’t unless there’s a problem. I’d say your best bet to resolve this is to schedule a meeting to go over things – IMO that’s the best way to insure time is set aside to go over things for both of you.

      As far as your ob appointment, unless there’s a set protocol, I’d send an email to him, & your/his admin, to let them know you’ll be out of the office. Oh and if you use something like outlook, be sure to mark on your calendar that you’ll be out of the office, that way if him or one of the admins pull it up they can see when you expect to be out.

    2. fposte*

      In my experience, university hierarchies are very flat. Which is org-speak for saying we don’t do much managing and we expect people to figure out a *ton* by themselves; the higher the supervisor level, the more true this is. Is he the only person you can get this information from? Who else can you try? What happens if you move forward without it? When you say you don’t have the tools, do you mean actual things that need purchasing? Can you ask somebody else about those? On the doctor’s appointment, I’d ask people in the office what they generally do, but my inclination is just to send him a CYA email saying “I’m at an appointment Tuesday morning and should be in the office by 11.”

      Overall what I think you might be encountering is not so much being over your head as a culture change. I can’t say for sure, obviously, since I don’t know your workplace, but it sounds to me like you’re operating at a very risk-averse level and are more concerned with risks of commission than risks of omission. That would be unusual at a director-level position here, where you’d be expected to take some chances and make some mistakes and that would be considered vastly preferable to waiting to get supervisory permission for everything.

      I think it might be good to schedule a meeting with him to talk about this kind of expectation–does he want you to dive in and find ways to get stuff done independent of his direction? And I’d bring methodologies, etc., to the table, because if that’s so he doesn’t want to tell you how to do it–that’s the point. Basically, if you assumed that everything you were going to do was fine with him, what would you do? Plan to do that and then report back to him on the plan and brief him periodically on the progress.

      1. BL*

        I think you hit the nail on the head when you said I was operating at a very risk averse level. I know that’s a tendency on mine and had been doing some focused development work in that area before leaving my previous job. Being in a new environment put me back to my default behavior when I need to be pushing forward. I have been getting information from others in the office as much as possible and that seems to help. I did learn that the physical office space was renovated and expanded recently and spreading people out in more private offices cut way down on the informal, impromptu conversations where you typically learn a lot. I have written a sort of rough plan for how I want to move forward on what I think are the biggest priorities and will schedule a meeting for us to discuss it. I also included a list of the information and contacts I need to complete those tasks.

        Thanks for the help.

    3. Chriama*

      If you’re taking sick time, just treat it like regular sick time. “I have an upcoming doctor’s appointment on [date]. For future reference, would you prefer I email you or just turn on my out-of-office?”

  59. Hermoine Granger*

    My most recent position was a contract position. The owner of the company offered me the option to continue working on a project basis. I considered the offer but ultimately declined because the owner was very difficult to work with, would take months to provide me with requested information / approval, and due to changes in the company I was concerned about getting paid without any issues.

    It was a terrible work environment but I accomplished a lot and was successful in the role. The work in this position is most relevant to the kinds of jobs I’m currently applying for. Unfortunately, the owner became quite hostile when I declined to keep working on projects. Some time has gone by but I’m concerned that the owner either won’t reply to reference requests in a timely manner (if at all) or might be quite negative. Given the owner’s behavior during our last interaction, I wouldn’t feel comfortable contacting them.

    I’m thinking that the best way to handle this would be to only provide the owner’s contact information after an offer has been made and to explain that the owner was resentful at my leaving and may be unresponsive or negative. I have strong references from previous positions and possibly from an organization at which I recently started volunteering. Would this be a good way to handle things?

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Is there anyone else at this company who uses your work and who might make a better reference? I think that would be preferable to saying things about the owner that could be taken the wrong way by potential employers. That said, if you’ve been made an offer, they might like you enough to take you at your word if you state it the way you suggested, so I might go with that if you don’t have another reference for that contract position.

      1. Hermoine Granger*

        Thanks for the feedback. Unfortunately, it’s a small company and knowledge of the details of my work were limited to the owner. If the owner is unwilling to provide a reference, I think it’s likely other employees would get in trouble for trying to provide a reference. If worse comes to worse, I have a copy of the employment contract and can try to have the staffing company at least confirm my employment dates and that the contract simply ended.

  60. Zillah*

    I’ve had a hard year health-wise, and lately I’ve really been struggling with depression (long term diagnosis, usually well-controlled, but tough right now and I don’t have much disposable income to see my therapist/psychiatrist). My contract is set to end next month, so I’m job searching. However, I’ve had a hard time motivating myself after work/on the weekends, and I’m worried that after I lack the structure of a job I’ll have an even more difficult time and sink further into depression. I live with my partner and near my parents (who I see regularly), so I won’t be totally cut off from human contact, but they all work, and I don’t want to be needy.

    Does anyone have any suggestions for how I can keep myself on track? And, do any librarians/archivists in particular have any suggestions for skills someone early in their career could try to develop at home to make themselves more employable while job searching? I’m thinking I’ll try to get better with Dreamweaver/WordPress/Drupal/whatever, but there must be other stuff I can do as well.

    I was also thinking about maybe starting a website where I compile ridiculous and useless statistics about sports and reality tv shows (mostly soccer and the amazing race? probably?), because I actually kind of love spreadsheets and doing that sort of thing, but maybe that’s a dumb idea? And even if it’s not, it’s probably not something I can put on a resume? Or is it?

    I don’t know.

    1. BRR*

      Fellow depression suffer and was unemployed semi-recently. Set an alarm and get up during the weekdays, you can give yourself the weekends to sleep in. You might want to look into volunteer work while you job hunt.

    2. Celeste*

      I don’t have any answers for the work stuff, but I think you should go ahead with the website since it’s something you enjoy. That bit of happiness in your day might count as self-care and help you with the depression. I always feel better after I immerse myself in something enjoyable like that. I wouldn’t worry that it has to be something for your resume. Best of luck to you either way!

    3. MaryMary*

      To keep yourself on track, Try creating a structure for your job hunting. Depending on what works best for you, set out a specific times and days (9-11 Monday – Friday), maybe a specific place (the library or taking your laptop to a coffee shop), or set mini-goals for yourself (ten applications a week).

      1. pretzel*

        As a fellow depression sufferer who spent some time recently unemployed, I have nothing but sympathy for you. Keep a routine, practice whatever self-care usually helps keep your depression under control (for me, exercise), and put time limits on the job hunt. 40 hours of job searching a week isn’t a real or productive thing. If the website would be fun for you, do it; I was also going to second volunteer work (did that) and teaching yourself something new to keep your brain well occupied.

        Good luck; you’re doing the right thing planning in advance for this. Most of all, don’t let yourself self-isolate. Worst thing I did.

    4. Hlyssande*

      That website idea sounds really fun.

      When I was unemployed, the lack of social interaction and lack of any set schedule really triggered a downward depressive spiral and kept me down for a long time.

      Giving yourself a schedule of some sort and getting social interaction are really important things. That’ll give you a reason to get up in the morning and get out of the house or move around. Even if your schedule involves things like “10am – dance like a fool to favorite music”, having a schedule and sticking to it was so, so helpful to me.

    5. squids*

      For keeping on track, look for free or very cheap webinars, or even a relevant MOOC — something where the material is being presented to you in a formal way, so you don’t have to spend all of your executive function figuring out what to do next. When I’m stressed or anxious it’s a lot easier to watch a video than to try to direct my own learning. This doesn’t need to be your only project but it can be there when you just can’t deal with the other stuff.

      Tech skills are a good idea; maybe education if you’re looking for something very public-facing; maybe fundraising, grant-writing, or non-profit management; I’ve been putting my spare learning time into legal issues that affect my work. (gov’t rm/privacy with archives background)

      1. Zillah*

        I’d actually love to develop some understanding of grant-writing; do you have any suggestions on where I could find something that’s actually useful?

        1. fposte*

          I’m sure there are books and stuff, but given your field I’d also suggest you have a look at the imls dot gov site (trying to avoid moderation) and have a look at the requirements for actual library grants. IMLS is really specific and clear about what it asks for and I believe includes samples, so it would give you a good up-close look at exactly the kind of stuff you’d probably be writing.

        2. squids*

          Wish I could recommend you to something specific, but that one’s really not my area. I’ve sent the question on to a friend who may be able to help; I’ll update later if something good comes in.

          In general, look at regional/state/provincial professional associations for their professional development options. The national ones (e.g. SAA) have great offerings but rely on them as a revenue stream; smaller organizations will have fewer choices but may be cheaper or have free options. For example, Ontario Library Association webinars look to be either free or $55. Look at other regions’ associations, and look at associations for different professions with some overlapping skills (ie for grant-writing museums and arts organizations will likely have resources.)

          A massive and overwhelming compilation of free learning resources: http://www.openculture.com/

    6. Zillah*

      Thanks, guys! Lots of awesome awesome advice here, and I will be sure to write it all down so I have quick access to it. <3 Hugely appreciated. :)

    7. CaliSusan*

      I was in the same boat a few years ago, and what really helped me was what a few others have already suggested: building structure into my day so that it mimics a real work day. So, I would allow myself to sleep in, but not too much – maybe 7:30 am or thereabouts. I’d get up, get dressed, have coffee, and then grab my laptop and take it to a local coffee shop, where I’d look for jobs online, apply, etc. I’d also use that time to do freelance work — I was writing resumes on a contract basis for a resume company, so I’d do that for an hour or two each day. Gave me a small amount of income and kept my skills sharp while I looked for work.

      Whatever variation of this scenario works for you, give it a whirl. And good luck to you!

  61. Nervous accountant*

    Any advice on how to deal with clients?

    Quick background-my job is heavily focused on client interactions on the phone. I’ve need a lot of training and while I’m improving and even my boss says I’m doing better and she hears me on calls, I still get a few complaints that I’m not warm enough. I’ve taken advice so far-smile while talking, be positive, control the conversation etc.

    I just can’t do fake laughing or giggling :-(. I don’t have a very sexy or feminine voice. I’m not witty and I just don’t have that natural easiness with people, as hard as I try. I’m always more concerned with being factually correct while being polite and friendly than trying to be someone’s best friend. This is my second season and I’ve taken all the advice I’m given and so far so good but idk sometimes the complaints really make me hate my own personality.

    1. just laura*

      “I just can’t do fake laughing or giggling :-(. I don’t have a very sexy or feminine voice.”

      Thank goodness! I would probably not want my accountant to do any of that! :)

      Try raising your eyebrows when you talk. And maybe standing will shift your energy level up.

      But you are improving, which is awesome. You’re being asked to do something unnatural, so the fact that you’re making steps is a great thing.

    2. LillianMcGee*

      Being comfortable on the phone took me YEARS. I think practice makes perfect. And not even perfect! I’ve also accepted that I am going to sound awkward or foible or blank out sometimes and that’s okay. I would hope that professional and friendly is enough! If you know the client well, the warmth will come naturally. I would be (and have been) put off by customer service people trying to act like my best friend.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        I’m the same way–I feel like a lot of it is my own personality. I have friends, I don’t need my customer service rep to act like one, and I like to be to the point and concise, in writing and talking about professional things. I am improving though but it’s really discouraging when I get a complaint. I do get feedback and I take it constructively, not personally.

    3. Colette*

      I’m much the same way, so I completely understand.

      If you haven’t already tried this, one thing you can do is listen for cues to what the customer wants. Do they start by talking about something personal (weather, how their day is going, emotional words like “frustrated” or “happy”), or do they talk about the facts? If they talk about personal topics, indulge them and try to address the emotional need as well as the factual need.

    4. MaryMary*

      Please don’t fake laugh or giggle. I have a nervous giggle, and that’s not great either.

      See if you can get someone to elaborate on the feedback that you’re not “warm.” Is it tone? Do you need to do more small talk? Are you doing small talk but it sounds really forced? Are you not responding enough to their small talk? The more specific feedback you get, the better you’ll be able to address it.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Well, my boss did approach me today. she said that it seems like I get thrown off by a question I don’t know and I get very nervous and the second a client senses that hesitation, they’re ready to pounce on it, so that makes sense to me….. I do get other specific feedback, like make it personal, imagine if it was my own sibling or parent, realize that *I’m* the expert they’re speaking to etc.

        I think my username fits me?

    5. Sparrow*

      Instead of fake laughing or giggling, maybe just try smiling while you’re talking? I’ll post a link separately that explains it better than I can.

        1. Sparrow*

          My bad. Sorry! Didn’t read close enough. Looks like some other commenters have good suggestions.

    6. fposte*

      So who do you work with that you think does this well? Can you ask them about it and ask if you can observe them and take notes during a call? It could really help to find a real external model to consider; hypotheticals are often red herrings in cases like this anyway (as with the giggling thing).

    7. Brigitte*

      One of the most effective things you can do communicating with a client is to reflect their concerns and desires back to them. This can be as simple as quoting what a client has said back to them. “Before we go on, let me tell you what I’ve heard, so I can make sure I’m on the right track. You’d like to _____.” Get their buy in, then move on to your recommendations.

      It’s amazing what the simple process of mirroring a client’s concerns and desires can do for your relationship. This is so much more important to their perception of you than laughing or smiling — ultimately, clients want to feel heard. Give them that feeling, and you’re golden.

  62. Salary Drop Conundrum*

    I really enjoy the work that I’m doing at my current job, except that my boss and I really don’t connect and I don’t feel like she has an interest in helping me succeed. We’re the only two people on our team and when I was hired she described herself as being a “mentor” and gave me a great outline of the training and development we would do once I got started – this never happened and when I bring it up she says she doesn’t know what I’m talking about. (I still have the plan she gave me in writing, so it’s not like I made it up or misinterpreted anything). Sometimes she even goes days without speaking to me unless she has something she needs from me and totally ignores my attempts to make conversation with her when we do see each other (our desks are on opposite sides of the office due to some issues with managing our space).

    I started reaching out to other opportunities over the holidays and have received a really great response. One that I’m particularly interested in has some really interesting work coming in, the manager and I seem to have similar approaches to things, and I feel they’ve given me a really great overview of the good and bad about working in the company. The solid training program they have doesn’t hurt either! The role also has a clearer development path at a larger company (whereas my current role doesn’t have much growth potential). I’m fairly confident I’ll be receiving an offer for this role, but there’s one concern I have – the pay would be about $12,000 less annually than what I make right now.

    So here is my question – any tips from people who have considered taking (or have taken) a salary drop for a good work opportunity?

    For added context I’m 25, the money wouldn’t put me in poverty by any means but would add a year or more to my long-term goal of buying my own home. I’ve been at my current role for a year and have tried several approaches to improve my working relationship with my current boss and feel that I’ve exhausted my options there, so not looking for advice on how to deal with her :)

    2. periwinkle*

      Weigh the pros and cons of taking the salary drop. From your description, the only con of taking the offer from this other company is the lower pay. Everything else sounds like a significant improvement.

      So if you stayed at your current job, with the lack of growth potential and the manager actively disinterested in your development, how long would it take to increase your base salary there? If you moved to this other company, with its clear career path, opportunities for development, and hopefully a manager who will acknowledge your existence, how long would it take to move up?

      My husband took a $10k pay cut to move from a position with no growth potential in an environment where he was so stressed out that it affected his health. Totally, totally worth it for him (and our marriage, to be honest). He’s still at the “new” company, over a decade later. The growth opportunities wiped out that salary differential, and I suspect it will be a non-issue for you in due time, too.

    3. Jerry Vandesic*

      It’s not about the pay at the old job vs the new job, it’s how they compare to the industry. Is your current employer paying you a lot more than other potential employers? Is the pay at the new job more in line with the industry average?

      My suggestion is to reject the new job if the new pay is significantly below industry norms. If they are low, you can probably find someone else more in line with what you should expect. In that case you should look some more. On the other hand, if the new job is competitive with the rest of the industry, and if you really don’t like working for your well paying but not a nice place current employer, take it and enjoy a better work experience.

      1. Chriama*

        I definitely agree about looking to see if this is in line with industry norms. They could offer some other benefits (training courses, tuition reimbursement) that reduce the disparity, but I’d want to see real evidence (as in, talk to my potential future coworkers) that people are *encouraged* to use these resources and it’s not just for show or reserved for higher level positions.

  63. krm*

    I am an admin assistant at a healthcare organization, and I supervise the receptionists. We have two receptionists who alternate 10 hour days (ie 2 days on, 3 days off, etc). One receptionist is perfectly content to eat at her desk, which we have no problem with. The cafeteria area is at the entrance of the building, so it isn’t out of place at all. The second receptionists always requests to leave the desk area for a half hour to eat her lunch, in addition to the two 15 minute breaks she takes away from the desk during her shift. Someone always has to cover these breaks. I should add that our lunches and breaks are paid, even for hourly staff. Is it unreasonable for me to tell her that some days she will need to eat lunch at her desk when I am not able to cover it for her? There is no one else able to cover for her, but I am not able to do any of my work from her desk. I don’t mind covering occasionally, but when it is 2 or 3 days in a row, it has an impact on my work. How should I approach this? Do I need to just accept that it is a part of my job?

    1. some1*

      It sounds like the 1st receptionist chooses to work through her lunch and the 2nd one doesn’t. If the 2nd receptionist is entitled to get a lunch break, then, yes, she should be allowed to leave the desk, if staying there means answering phones and greeting visitors while she eats.

    2. Kelly L.*

      There are probably laws in your area about how much lunch break people are supposed to have. If she is in fact entitled to a lunch, I don’t think you can require her to be at the desk “on call” during her lunch time. That would be work, kwim?

      Because the reason the other receptionist eating at her desk benefits you is that she’s still receptionist-ing during that time. She’s not really taking a “lunch” at all, even if she’s eating. Otherwise you’d be covering for her too. I think the one who eats at her desk is not availing herself of something she’s probably entitled to, and it’s kind of spoiling you for the other one.

      1. some1*

        Yeah, and especially for a 10-hour shift it’s a good idea to let the receptionists have true breaks where they don’t have to do any work. It gives them a chance to decompress and come back refreshed.

        Also, does it *have* to be you covering lunch? Maybe a receptionist or admin in another dept can cover lunches? Either way it’s a good idea to have someone else besides you trained in case you are out.

        1. krm*

          I agree that it is a good idea to let them have true breaks…I guess the frustration is that it is always me that has to drop what I’m doing, even if it is eating my own lunch, to cover for her. I am not able to work on any of my own projects from the desk due to HIPPA concerns, so I feel as if I am not being productive.

          1. soitgoes*

            If you are eating your own lunch, you cannot be called on to perform job tasks (including covering for someone else’s break either).

            This is one of those cases where “is it legal?” is actually appropriate to ask. Your workplace is turning a blind eye to some practices that, while maybe not completely illegal in themselves, would cause a lot of trouble if someone spoke up about them. If the receptionist who leaves for lunch were outright asked to keep working and then was not paid, that’s a legal problem.

            1. krm*

              All of our staff are paid for lunch breaks, regardless of where the employee takes their break. There is not a concern of whether or not she will be paid for the time.

              1. soitgoes*

                That’s not how it works. If you’re paid for the break, you’re still entitled to 30 minutes away from work, by law. That’s a given. If you’re called on to perform work, you need to have that time added on to your pay, or at least be paid for a 30-minute post-work break.

                In your comment, receptionist 1 is performing 10 hours of work for 10 hours of pay. Receptionist 2 is performing 9 hours of work for 10 hours of pay. Receptionist 1 is entitled to an extra hour of pay.

                Are you expected to work during paid vacations as well?

                1. fposte*

                  Just to be clear, this is all *very* state dependent, and it’s not true across the board that you still have to provide an employee with a break. The Feds don’t care as long as the on-duty lunches are included in hours and count towards OT eligibility.

          2. Kelly L.*

            Then I think what you will probably need to do, and this probably is worth a discussion with whoever is over the three of you*, is stagger your lunches so that you and she are not eating at the same time. Then, when she eats, you cover for her, and try not to think of yourself as “unproductive.” If you’re the person who covers the desk while the receptionist is at lunch, that is work, and you are doing the work that needs to be done at that moment. It’s productive in a different way, but still productive.

            *I add this part because it’s possible there’s someone completely different who’s supposed to cover. But whoever covers, they need to be staggering their lunch with Receptionist 2 so that they’re not on their own lunch break when the coverage is needed.

            1. Elizabeth West*

              If you’re the person who covers the desk while the receptionist is at lunch, that is work, and you are doing the work that needs to be done at that moment. It’s productive in a different way, but still productive.

              This. I’m doing it right now. I can’t really do a lot of my own stuff because of the interruptions, but it’s one hour out of my week. If I want to work on something down here, I generally take something that isn’t confidential or doesn’t require a lot of concentration. Otherwise, I’m handling the desk and that is important too.

              Is there someone you can talk to about the lack of coverage? Perhaps one of the other departments can loan an admin when needed, or like my company does, all of us are expected to do it and are assigned times / days when we do it. We swap if someone is going to be gone, but the culture expectation is that we all cover it.

              1. Kelly L.*

                And I think we can point back to that wonderful “interruptions are the job” comment from a few weeks ago! Some days, or some parts of days, just being there to deal with the emerging random stuff just is the job.

              2. krm*

                Yes, I will do this. I agree that maybe readjusting my perspective as far as my own productivity may be helpful in all of this.

            2. some1*

              Absolutely. It’s completely reasonable for you to make the receptionists take breaks and lunches at a certain time. It is not reasonable to ask them to eat at the reception desk.

    3. BRR*

      You shouldn’t force people to eat at their desk and work through their lunch even if it’s paid. It might be occasionally ok like if you have a tight deadline or something but there are basic workplace freedoms.

      1. krm*

        Suggesting that I am trying to take away her “basic workplace freedoms” is a bit extreme. I’m not trying to make her work through her lunch, even though the organizational expectation is that staff are available during lunch due to the fact that we are in the healthcare organization. I guess I am looking for alternative suggestions for what to do on the occasions when I am unable to cover lunch when she wants it due to meetings, conference calls, and my own time sensitive work.

        1. soitgoes*

          Then the organizational expectation is unreasonable. Hourly employees cannot be expected to be available during their legally mandated breaks.

          It’s time to cobble together the money for more coverage.

          1. fposte*

            soitgoes, there *are* no legally mandated breaks unless krm is in a state that requires them. Most states don’t.

            1. soitgoes*

              Hmmm, that changes my answer a bit. Still, I’m of the opinion that a break is a break, and that if the workplace has stated that employees are entitled to 30-minute meals (and put that on paper anywhere), it’s unreasonable to act like the receptionist is out of line for going to the cafeteria for some food.

              1. Kelly L.*

                This. Even if it’s not a law, it’s a bit of a bait and switch if she’s been told “You get a 30 minute lunch” and then she’s frowned upon if she leaves during it.

                1. soitgoes*

                  In the midst of all of this, I think I need to clarify that my state actually DOES require that breaks be allowed after a certain amount of hours worked. It even requires two 30-minute meals once you hit a certain point (12 hours I believe).

                2. Kelly L.*

                  Yeah. Mine does too, and I think that’s why I sometimes forget they don’t all. I did live in another state for a long time, which didn’t require them, so I should remember–but I never had an employer in that state who didn’t give them anyway as a courtesy. So it felt like status quo even though it wasn’t required by law in Other State.

                3. soitgoes*

                  If we set aside what I’ve said about regulations, I think the OP still faces similar problems if the paid breaks and lunches are mentioned in the employee contracts or, to a lesser degree, any of the company literature. You can’t just trample all over something that’s built into the compensation structure (9 hours of work for 10 hours of pay) because the realities of the business (as it operates with its current number of employees) makes it difficult to comply with contracts that have already been signed.

            3. Jerry Vandesic*

              If it’s not a break, all they need to do is not call it a break. If they have to work, it’s not a break. If an employee can’t take lunch break, they shouldn’t be told that they can take a lunch break.

        2. Observer*

          As others have said, the fact that it’s an organizational expectation is not really relevant. It is STILL not a good idea, even if it’s legal. (Something I would double check, if I were you.)

          What is the pay scale on this job? Unless you have a really great pay-scale and otherwise excellent benefits and culture, I can;t imagine how you keep turnover on a job like that reasonable if you won’t even allow someone to leave their desk for lunch during a 10 hour shift.

          Oh, and unless you have a really good filter in place, I suggest you look at what your other receptionist is doing on the computer during her lunch breaks.

    4. soitgoes*

      Don’t dovetail the two 15-minute breaks into this. The way I understand it, 15-minute breaks are “free” for employees and have nothing to do with clocking out or pay.

      I agree with the others that receptionist 1 is actually doing 30 minutes of unpaid work a day. Is she staying at the desk in order to send personal emails and check social media during her lunch? She might not be registering that, by sitting at the desk at all and answering phones, she’s working and is entitled to 30 minutes’ additional pay.

      1. krm*

        She is not doing any unpaid work. We are paid for lunch breaks- receptionists work from 8am-6pm each day and are paid for the entire time. We do not punch a clock for lunch at all.

        1. soitgoes*

          Just because a break is paid does not mean that you can be called upon to work, unless you are exempt.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Actually, that’s not accurate. It’s true in states that require those breaks. Many states don’t require breaks, and therefore an employer in those states can indeed interrupt people’s breaks to work.

        3. Jerry Vandesic*

          Time where working is required is not a break. It’s not a lunch break if work is required. And obviously all work time needs to be paid.

    5. soitgoes*

      I’m reading some of your responses here, and I reaaaallllly don’t want to unload on you, but if you’re in a management position and you don’t understand why your expectations of these receptionists are flawed (and probably illegal) you need to do some research immediately. You don’t want to become that manager that people write to AAM about. The receptionists already have cause to report your organization’s practices (and you, for enforcing them as a manager) to the Department of Labor. Employees working 10-hour shifts are entitled to an uninterrupted meal. End of story. If you don’t have coverage during their legally required breaks, that’s not their problem to solve. It’s yours.

      1. soitgoes*

        I’m going to add that paying employees for their breaks is a gift/perk. It is not an indication that they need to work through lunch.

        I had a boss who did stuff like this: being generous with pay and using that as cause to make unreasonable demands. Don’t do that. You need to let them walk away from their desks for their breaks regardless of whether or not they’re paid. At the end of all of this, it would also be uncool if they were no longer paid for their breaks.

        1. Lily in NYC*

          My idiot boss just told his EA that she can’t put in for overtime anymore because she got a decent raise. But of course he still expects her to work long hours. She went straight to HR and they told her to suck it up. Then she went to the top HR guy and he had a fit and almost fired the other HR rep and ripped my idiot boss a new one. I cannot believe the ignorance of these people (not OP! I’m not talking about OP).

          1. krm*

            Oh I didn’t assume that you were talking about me. Our receptionists absolutely get overtime for any hours worked above 40 per week!

        2. Jerry Vandesic*

          The issue is not that you pay them for the time that you call a break, it’s that you are calling something a break that is not a break.

      3. fposte*

        And again, this is perfectly legal federally and in most states. Most states don’t require lunch breaks. Even fewer states require rest breaks. Unless we know what state krm is talking about, we’re making a big mistake to suggest that she’s got a legal problem, given that she’s describing a policy that would be legal in most of the US.

        tl; dr: in most of the US, non-exempt employees aren’t legally entitled to lunch periods or rest breaks.

        1. soitgoes*

          You don’t think there’s an issue with, “But we’re paying her, so we’re allowed to tell her that she’s not allowed to have the break that’s itemized in the employee handbook”?

          Where does this kind of thing fall when it comes to things like employee contracts and promised compensation?

          1. fposte*

            Is it even in krm’s employee handbook? I’m not seeing that post. What I’d feel in that case would depend on what was actually written, I suppose. I’m mostly concerned that we seemed to be claiming laws that aren’t there and suggesting krm is breaching those imagined laws.

            I don’t actually think working through your lunch is the worst thing in the world, as long as you’re paid for it. I’m not sure what I’d do in krm’s case, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to suggest that an employee on the clock needs to be available for work. What I’d probably do is start by identifying what amount of reception-area covering can fit into my schedule as the supervisor and then talk to the receptionists generally to see if we can figure the lowest-impact way to do this. (I don’t think receptionist B has to be cool with whatever receptionist A is, though, so I wouldn’t hold that against B.)

            1. krm*

              fposte, thank you. I am a new manager (new as in I have been in this position for less than 6 months, and have been promoted to managing this department within the past 3 weeks), and the reason I am asking this question is because I don’t want to make a mistake that would put me in the horrible manager category. soitgoes, I am not trying to prevent her from taking a break (although, as I have said before, my state does not require 30 minute lunch breaks). I am looking for ways to minimize its impact in my productivity, as fposte has so eloquently explained. I work in a long term care organization, where if a resident has an issue, specifically a health or safety related issue, we are expected to drop everything, including our lunch, to assist them. I totally understand that she wants a lunch break. I would want to get out from behind that desk as well if I were there all day. My issue is how to minimize its impact on my work. If the only way for her to get a lunch break is for me to sit at her desk, I will do it. I am looking to see how other people have handled similar situations, not to be the manager that people nominate for worst boss of the year.

              1. soitgoes*

                Addendum:

                Because in the comments, I think we’re sort of losing track of the fact that the receptionist isn’t even leaving the building for lunch. She’s going where she’s *supposed to go.

              2. soitgoes*

                Oh please. I never said you were a horrible person. I said that curtailing an employee’s promised right to take 30 minutes to eat her lunch in the lunch room wouldn’t be good, and I don’t see how that’s arguable.

                1. fposte*

                  It’s arguable because there’s no indication she has a right or a promise to take 30 minutes to eat her lunch in the lunchroom. In fact, krm says explicitly that the organizational expectation is continued availability through lunch.

                  This employee likes to eat lunch in the lunchroom, and I think it’s worth a conversation to see if that’s possible to allow that to continue at least to some extent and to do so in a way that’s fair to her colleagues. But she’s not being cheated out of anything here.

                2. krm*

                  “if you’re in a management position and you don’t understand why your expectations of these receptionists are flawed (and probably illegal) you need to do some research immediately. You don’t want to become that manager that people write to AAM about. ”

                  I am trying to get advise from an anonymous group of people on the internet that I generally respect so that I don’t become that manager. I wasn’t trying to indicate that you called me a horrible person.

                3. Ask a Manager* Post author

                  soitgoes, can I ask you to take it down a notch? You’re sounding pretty adversarial toward the OP (and moreover, you’re telling her she’s breaking laws that she’s not breaking). Stuff like “oh please” isn’t helpful here. Thank you.

            2. soitgoes*

              I think, at the very least, management needs to reconcile “we have a cafeteria” with “but it’s reaaaaaaaally inconvenient when employees actually use it.” If someone at the corporate level saw fit to provide the premises with a room full of food for sale and tables for sitting at (even if it’s for clients/patients as well), that means that somewhere along the line there was a presumption that employees would sit there and eat their meals. Do non-admins eat there? It’s time to come up with an updated employee description for the receptions if they are not to be eating lunch in the lunch room.

              1. krm*

                I think some issues are getting conflated here. I am not trying to prevent her from taking breaks. I am not trying to prevent her from using the cafeteria. I am looking for suggestions on how to minimize its impact on my productivity. Like Kelly L. and Elizabeth suggested above, I need to rethink my approach to the time that I spend covering, and see it as a part of my work, as me just sitting at the desk wasting a few hours per week. And I will also be talking with other managers to see if there are alternate people that can cover the receptionists’ lunch breaks when I am unable to do so due to meetings and other parts of my job.

    6. Emily, admin extraordinaire*

      When I was a receptionist and had to have people cover me for lunches and breaks (I rarely took breaks, though), we made sure to have an actual schedule– what time the breaks were, who was covering, who was backup in case of emergency, etc. If for any reason the schedule had to change (either for me or for the person covering me), we worked it out in advance (lunch breaks got moved, or someone else covered, etc). It sounds like you guys need more structure, and possibly more people involved in the covering pool.

      1. krm*

        Yes, formalizing this will be helpful I think. As it stands currently, she pops into my office to tell me that she wants to take lunch in 5 minutes and it isn’t at a consistent time- today was 12:40, yesterday it was 11:10.

        1. fposte*

          Yes, I think you may have fallen into the “we all get along and don’t need to formalize these piddly little things” trap, only to find out that those piddly little things are what most need formalizing. So that one’s on you as a supervisor, as I think you realize, but that’s part of the learning curve.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            That’s a really great point about “we don’t need to formalize these piddly little things”. One place I worked, I did not get my first break until 6 hours into my 8 hour shift because everyone got along so well. Yeah, they would zip out the door to lunch and I would be stuck working, and I had not even had my morning break. It took a lot but finally breaks were assigned. If you did not leave on time you had to come back on time and take the balance of your break later.

        2. some1*

          I would assign a time for her, and let her know in advance. You can even let her pick the time, but tell her you need her to stick to it so you can plan your day around it. I had an assigned lunchtime when I was a receptionist.

        3. QualityControlFreak*

          Yeah, not cool. If the expectation is that everyone be available during their breaks, and you are in compliance with all applicable laws (and in your industry I can totally see the rationale behind this), then you need to make that clear during the hiring process, as well as communicate this to current staff.

          I could see administrative personnel not intuitively coming to this conclusion on their own unless they have some specific health care background; they’re not nurses or CNAs so they might not feel of much use in an emergency situation. Suggest a team meeting to set up a lunch schedule that works for everyone, and stick to it. You can explain at that point that someone has to be on the reception desk at all times. In an emergency an admin may be needed to arrange ambulance services, for example, so there is a valid need for the role they play.

    7. Lily in NYC*

      Unless she is a robot, then yes, she should be allowed to leave her desk for lunch. It’s so unfair to expect an hourly employee to work through their lunch break. Does she even get paid for that half hour (most non-exempt people don’t), so if that’s the case you are expecting her to work free overtime in addition to having unrealistic expectations of her.

      1. krm*

        Yes, as I have mentioned, lunch breaks are paid for all staff in my organization. I agree she should be able to take a lunch away from her desk, but I am trying to figure out how to minimize its impact on my day. There has never been any formal discussion of who is responsible for covering lunches and breaks, and it has fallen on me to do it. I am looking to see if there are ways, such as scheduling breaks, that will allow me to be as productive as possible, while still being fair to the front desk staff.

        1. Lily in NYC*

          sorry, krm. I had my comment box open for a while and tons of comments came in before I posted that I didn’t see before I clicked submit. Are there other admins that could rotate with you to cover the front desk? It shouldn’t be only your responsibility. We also have two mailroom guys that we have cover reception in the early morning and during lunch. We find it less disruptive than using admins.

          1. krm*

            That is actually a great idea. We don’t have mail clerks, but we do have some purchasers and records clerks that would possibly be able to fill in.

        2. fposte*

          I do think Jerry V. has a reasonable point upthread that referring to lunchtime as a “break” is sending a different message than you mean to. I’d stick to just saying “lunch.”

          1. Cat*

            I don’t know, I think we’re losing sight of the fact that expecting someone to sit behind a desk for 10 hours borders on cruel. If there’s no coverage, when does she use the bathroom? There has to be decent coverage set up, regardless of whether the law requires it, because krm is looking to treat her employee well. And it sounds like it’s doable so I think reframing breaks and lunch to make it clear they’re really not breaks is not what’s needed here; instead, it’s going to be about training additional staff and setting up schedules, which is going to be better for everyone involved.

            1. fposte*

              Sure, and we’ve talked about that, and krm is on board. But I think she’s referring to lunch as a “break” in a workplace where it’s not one, and that’s something that also needs to change.

              (Setting aside receptionist coverage issues, surely it’s no worse for non-exempt employees to sit behind a desk all day than it is exempt employees?)

              1. Observer*

                Well, some jobs by their nature allow you to move around, etc. Being tethered to a single desk doesn’t let you do that.

    8. Chriama*

      I don’t know about the legality of working while on break if it’s a paid break, so while I hate to be “that guy”… is it legal to require her to stay at her desk (and therefore, presumably available to work) during her break?

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        If it’s a state that requires breaks, she must be given a real break. If it’s not a state that requires breaks, the breaks are at the employer’s discretion and she can be required to be available for work during them, as she’s being paid for that time.

  64. ps anonymous*

    Any advice for turning down a job *right* before an offer is likely to come? I’ve been interviewing with an organization for a few weeks, and they sent me some questions a few days ago about location preferences. The thing is, part of the reason I’m withdrawing is because I’ve changed my mind about where I want to be–I’ve been assuring them throughout the process that I want to stay in the country I’m currently in, but in fact I’ve recently decided I want to go back to the country where I’m from, for personal reasons beyond just being close to family.

    any phrasing suggestions? This job would honestly be perfect and fantastic if it were located elsewhere…but it’s not.

    1. Dot Warner*

      You don’t need to go into specifics. Just say that something came up and so you’d like to remove yourself from consideration.

    2. HR Manager*

      Yeah, I’ve done that. Sure, makes you feel guilty as heck, but you’ll get over it. And if you know it wouldn’t be the right fit in the long run, better now than to accept the job and quit soon after. That really stinks.

      I would just say ” I’d like to withdraw myself from consideration for your opening. I really want to thank you for the time you’ve spent with me, and I’ve learned a lot about your company. Unfortunately, circumstances have changed for me that no longer put me in a position to pursue your opportunity.” If they ask more specifically, you can reveal that you have a decision to return to your home country if you’re comfortable. Most would understand that.

  65. Amber Rose*

    A coworker of mine recently went on mat leave (she’ll be gone a year) and I just gave my notice. Is it weird/inappropriate to email her personal email to ask for a reference? I don’t have her number but sometimes she sends pictures of the baby.

    1. some1*

      Not at all, as long as it’s not just a one-line email reading. “I just gave Bob my notice, can you be a reference for me?”. You are asking for a favor, so it’d be polite to exchange a couple pleasantries as well (“How’s it going with the baby?”, “I miss chatting with you.”)

  66. Intrepid Intern*

    I have two interviews for internships next week!

    However, I’m a recent graduate, not a student, and I’m concerned that my interviewers will think I’ll jump ship in the middle of the internship for a full-time position. I don’t think this will actually be an issue, because:

    a) I don’t know if I could leave for a full-time job if I wanted to, because I’m not getting many bites– in the 3-4 months I’ve been applying for jobs, 3 out of the 4 interviews I’ve gotten have been for internships. I’ve also focused my last month on applying for spring internships, so I have relatively little in the pipeline.

    b) I’m actually really excited about the work of these internships, and I’d want to stay as long as I could

    c) For either internship, I’d be moving to (the same) new city, which is the city I hope to build my career in. Because of this, I’d be willing (but reluctant) to take the first month of an internship “off” and focus on networking instead of applying for open positions. Moreover, I figure that even a successful application will have about a month between application and start date; presuming my first cover letter isn’t the one that works, I should be in the internship for at least 2.5 of the 3 months.

    d) I have a really good Masters and about 2-3 years’ internship/ PT work experience. I think I could be a much more useful intern than many less-experienced peers. Hopefully this would offset any potential losses to the employer if I do leave early.

    As far as addressing this in an interview, I think some version of B and D are my most convincing points, but both seem a little weak. I don’t want to offer C if I don’t have to, but I’d rather offer C than be passed over for the internship.

    How do I address this if it comes up in an interview? If the interviewer doesn’t mention it, should I bring it up myself?

    1. fposte*

      Don’t bring it up yourself if they don’t. Especially since some of your reasons don’t sell you much, and c) I don’t even really understand. And honestly, I think you might want to be realistic with yourself about the possibility that you might leave for a job–it would be foolish to pass up a really good opportunity if you found one. If they bring it up, I’d say stick to b).

      It’s less likely to be an individual decision than an overall tendency there anyway; they’ll either prefer current students or be okay with new grads, rather than wanting to know the specifics of your situation.

      Good luck!

      1. Intrepid Intern*

        Thank you!

        I do think at least one of them specifically asked for/allowed for recent graduates, and I’ve been clear in my resume & cover letter that I’ve gradated, so hopefully they’ve already decided I’m worth considering.

        I do think b) is the most… palatable? to bring up in an interview, I just wasn’t sure if it would be enough, from the employer’s point of view. Thanks again!

    2. Lily in NYC*

      You are way overthinking this. It’s probably not going to come up because it’s very common to have recent grad interns. We always have a mix of students and grads and we’ve also had interns quit for full-time positions. No one gets upset when it happens – we don’t want to hinder someone’s career opportunities. Internships tend to be pretty short anyway so it’s not like the person is indispensable to us nor do they do the higher level work.

      1. Intrepid Intern*

        Honestly, I’m pretty excited about both, and somewhat worried that I won’t get either, so I do think I’m overthinking it a bit. Thanks for the perspective. =)

  67. anonima in tejas*

    I encountered a situation earlier this week and I was unsure how to handle it. I would love to hear how the AAM community would suggest handling the situation.

    I belong to a professional organization and I recently achieved a significant accomplishment in my field (along with several others who also received the same significant accomplishment at the same time).

    The Secretary/Officer of the professional organization sent out a congratulatory email to the entire list, including congrats to all who passed. I was the only person who achieved the accomplishment who was left off the list.

    I was really pissed off. But I managed to send an email to the Secretary/Officer stating that I also achieved same accomplishment and asked her to send a corrected email. She emailed me back quickly– did not apologize but sent the email.

    It was really hard for me to send her the email. And for a few minutes I was hopeful that someone else who knew me and knew my accomplishment would send it. Is that unreasonable? Is it best to speak up for yourself?

    Does your advice change if the person who wrote the email, and the people on the list are of a particular race and I am of a different race?

    1. Brett*

      Seems right to me to send that email yourself. You would be expected to notice it right away, and the organization officer would want to correct it as quickly as possible.

      Unless the organization or accomplishment are specifically connected to race, I don’t see a way race should have anything to do with sending the email.

    2. blue moon*

      Congratulations on speaking up, even though it was hard to do. I think it’s a bit unreasonable to expect others to notice that there is an error and take action to remedy it, yes. While it’s important to you, others are not terribly likely to be scanning the list of names and comparing it to what they have heard about elsewhere. Would you have noticed if one person’s name had been missed off? Would you have emailed on their behalf to query the omission? I wouldn’t have, if it was me. I’d have assumed there was a reason for the omission, if I ever even noticed it.

      I think I t’s generally best in these situations, if you can, to be your own advocate. It’s not pushy or unreasonable to request a correction of factual info like this. And it sounds like your concern was noted and the correction issued without any problem, so it worked.

      As for the race issue, do you have any reason to believe there is a racial basis for this omission? If there has been a pattern of treating you differently, it might be a concern. Even so, I’d say being your own advocate is the best policy. But unless there is a pre-existing pattern of discrimination etc. that you’ve experienced, I wouldn’t perceive something that is quite likely to be a simple clerical error to be any more than that.

    3. NoTurnover*

      Unless there’s more background that we don’t know about, this sounds like simple human error to me. My job involves proofreading lists of names frequently, and we still make mistakes. If you don’t have anyone proofreading, it’s even more likely. She should have apologized, but at least she sent out the correction, and I doubt it’s anything personal.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I see this happen a lot- where one person’s name is left off a list and a second list is sent out. I got an obituary published on a second day because of an oversight like this. And that involved lots of arguing.

      Since she responded quickly, I think she was embarrassed by her mistake and was hurrying to correct it. In doing her rush, she forgot to apologize. I know I would be upset if I forgot someone’s name on a list.

    5. Chriama*

      It’s definitely best to speak up for yourself. The race thing *might* be a factor if, for example, she was recalling people off the top of her head it didn’t remember you because of unconscious bias (e.g. listing a bunch of people who got a science award and forgetting to include the only woman) but it could also be a number of other things so it doesn’t change my advice. Even just a quick email like – “I actually got that award too and I’m quite proud of it. Can you send out an amended email?” is enough to resolve things easily. But in general, no one will notice your accomplishments as much as you. Do you know everyone who got that award? Are you positive that none of them were left off the list? (the answers might be ‘yes’ and ‘yes’ depending on the size of the organization and the number of people who got the award, but hopefully my point still stands). Racism really sucks because we’re mostly in the day and age where it’s unintentional (or at least, unconscious). But my general advice is always to speak up for yourself. (I also remember reading a study about unconscious bias that described how someone might discount the contributions a woman made to successfully completing a project unless a) they had worked with her before or b) they were presented with specific examples of things she did that led to the success. So even though it might be hard, make a conscious effort to speak up about your accomplishments. You can’t change everybody, but it will affect how you’re perceived in your immediate circle).

  68. Zillah*

    In lighter news –

    I have a lot of time to listen to podcasts and the like, and I’m searching out new ones. I love medicine/medical history (love RadioLab and Sawbones) and soccer – any suggestions?

      1. Zillah*

        Oh, sorry! I mostly listen to them at work while I’m doing stuff that doesn’t require super intense concentration, so I thought it would be okay here – I’ll bring it up Sunday instead. :)

  69. CAP*

    Does anyone have a good “email checklist?” I’ve recently had a few mail merge mishaps that were pretty embarrassing. Luckily my supervisor was kind about them, but because attention to detail came up in my review I really want to improve. Thanks!

    1. Mimmy*

      Do you mean how to actually do the mail merge? Mail merge is one of my least favorite tasks because it seems that Microsoft changes the steps with every MS Word upgrade. What’s helped me in the past was having step-by-step instructions at hand, either you write them down as you do each step, or you go off of pre-written instructions.

      Apologies if this isn’t what you were asking!

      1. CAP*

        No, more of a “check for errors” kind of list. These were mail merges where 100 people got one email, and 100 people got a slightly different email, etc. So I need something that I can run through before I hit send.

        Mail merge is awful, but so so helpful. I have a weird relationship with it.

    2. AnonAnalyst*

      Ah, mail merge. One of the tasks I was glad to leave behind in a previous job because I was always *petrified* I would make one of those mistakes.

      I did not do emails, so I’m not sure if this will be helpful. Is there any way to preview the emails before sending them? If so, what helped me feel reasonably confident that everything had populated correctly was to spot check a random sample of 10-15 merges to make sure everything matched up. If you were merging, say, a letter, that would mean going through the preview and randomly picking several letters throughout the batch and checking everything in the preview against your data file (correct names, messages, details, etc.).

      However, I’m not 100% sure I’m correctly interpreting your question, or if you can even use that feature for email, so this may or may not be helpful!

  70. Brett*

    So, our new chief elected official took office…
    I do a lot of volunteer work in data transparency and civic hacking, and I was not sure how that would go over with our new elected officials.

    Well, yesterday the chief information officer calls me up, and the chief elected official and his staff want to meet with me to determine how to increase granularity and transparency of budget information. I think this is good…. but they are also talking about me leading a website development project to do this. On top of my normal duties, with no promotion or pay increase.
    At least I will be directly promoting a cause I feel strongly about, but the cheapness of our organization is grating on me.

    1. Malissa*

      Anything for this year might already be locked down because the budget should be done. But while you are in the meeting with them bring up that this is a significant stretch from your current position and is often paid X in the public world. So if you do all of this work a reclassification of your position should happen.

    2. Ordinary Supervisor*

      Could you go for a title change that reflects the new job duties? Would help long term in discussing raises as well as potentially in the future if you’re looking to move to a different company.

  71. Dot Warner*

    I have a performance review coming up in the next few weeks and I’m sure my boss will ask about 2015 goals. The thing is, I am actively looking for a new job and my only goal for 2015 is to get out of here! What should I say to the boss that won’t make it sound like I’m trying to jump ship?

    1. Jen*

      Well, you’ll be working there anyways until you find another position, right? So try to come up with some things regardless. Take it from the viewpoint that if you were to stay, what would you want to improve upon.

    2. Sascha*

      Plan out some actual goals for your current job as if you are not leaving. Since getting a new job can take anywhere from a few weeks to a few years, I’d draft some actual goals so in case it takes you a while, you’ll have something for your current job to work towards. You could pull in professional development things that would benefit you for your next job – so that way, you have goals at your current job, but then some good stuff on your resume for when you’re job searching.

  72. Amber Rose*

    Oh man. I have a much more important question.

    A friend who is “selling” me to his boss to try and at least get me an interview just called. It would be a pretty big leap/pay cut so he told her that following the death of my last boss, my work environment became toxic, hence my switching jobs.

    Does that make me sound sympathetic, or like a whiner? How do I work with that?He said to keep my story along the same lines but I don’t wanna be that person who quits because they aren’t best friends with everyone.

    1. fposte*

      Well, it doesn’t make you sound like a whiner, because he said it. I might have preferred that he not, but it might also be useful–you can cast the situation more professionally and be the classy person who doesn’t badmouth the workplace while the prospective boss still has the information. I’d avoid “toxic” and stick to the huge impact on your role and workplace (maybe business, if appropriate) that the death of your boss had, and that you’re looking to find some stability again.

    2. soitgoes*

      I don’t think it’s a bad thing to have “out there,” especially since someone else revealed it. Just wait until the boss brings it up. I think it it would be perfectly acceptable to say, “I’ve been there for [x] years, and I’ve found that the company culture has shifted.” It might be best to direct the conversation more toward “I’ve been there for a long time and there’s no more room for growth/I’m looking for a change.”

      1. Burlington*

        Yeah, I think that it’s one of those things that, assuming it’s true, is something I might expect to hear more candidly from my referral source than from the candidate herself.

  73. Tea Pot Maiden*

    Almost 400 comments, oh boy, hope someone can help.

    Resume – just got Alison’s book and am planning on completely re-doing mine… this is my question for you wise folks:

    One page or more? I have over 15 years experience with no degree, thinking I should expand on the jobs and also make mine easier to read as I feel I have have too much text in the bullets under each job. Maybe this will help with the ‘look at all my experience’. and make is easier to read. I’ve been jamming all my info onto one page but I hear that’s not the thing anymore…

    Thanks in advance!

    1. Jen*

      Definitely do two pages, but no more. That’s pretty standard, especially for someone with more than a few years experience.

    2. Emily*

      I’ve done 2+ pages before but I always reorganize my jobs so the one most relevant to the position I am applying for is at the top and on the first page. if you applying for a job in a specific industry and your first page, is all your high school jobs or something, its going to be easier to get passed over. Good luck!

    3. HR Manager*

      Keep to 1-2 pages max. No need to go beyond 2. At 15 yrs of experience, you should stick to summaries and major highlights at each job.

    4. Meg Murry*

      I have 2 pages at 15 years experience – but organized in such a way that if they only read page 1 my most important qualifications would still stand out (in my case – my degrees, the software I’m an expert at and my 2 most recent and relevant jobs are on page 1). Technically, my page 2 is older and possibly stuff I could leave off – but at all of my most recent interviews, every interviewer has had at least 1 thing to bring up in the interview from page 2, so I think its worth keeping. Its mostly along the lines of “oh, you worked at Company XYZ 10 years ago? I worked with them when I worked on Project ABC – did you know Bob Smith?” -not super important details, but it seems to have helped in the interviews – and keeps my resume from being cramped with tiny font and no margins as well.

      1. Ella*

        Thanks everyone. Yes Meg that is the issue, I’m so focused on cramming everything on one page that I feel like I’m really hurting myself with the current format. Two pages feels like it makes sense, like you said making page one the most relevant and if that’s what people are doing more now I don’t want to look outdated.

  74. Emily*

    Does anyone have any advice on how to be more articulate or where to find advice on this? I have been at my company 9 years and am keen into moving into a different roles but I’ve already interviewed twice and completely choked during the face to face interviews. Despite weeks of prep (i even followed the guide on here!) when I got to the interviews I forgot all my prepared answers, I stumbled, I stuttered, I said things like “My reason for that decision? That was…my…decision…” and trailed off my sentences. I am a very shy person and despite being extremely well written, my brain freaks out with anxiety when speaking to a person and I can’t handle it and forget everything I know. I started analyzing when I speak to people so I could determine if it was lack of interview prep or nerves or something and I realize I sound that way a lot when speaking to people. I think if it were not for the fact that most of my coworkers read my emails and reports, which are extremely articulate and well written, they would think I was a complete moron. I took a public speaking class to no avail. Does anyone have any advice or ideas? Books to read? Thank you in advance!

    1. Sascha*

      What helps me is visualizing the interview before I go into it. I still have a little bit of nerves but it’s a lot better if I take some time and just think about it. Researching and writing out answers, and even role playing with friends, only helps me somewhat – I have to have time for my brain to process all of it. So I will just think on it throughout the day, or take a few minutes and sit in a quiet place and visual the interview. I do this many times before the actual interview and it helps me.

    2. Amber Rose*

      OK, tell me if this thought process sounds even slightly familiar:

      “Oh, this question, I had an answer for that. What was the answer again? I forgot! I need to say something! Oh no oh no oh no” panicking follows, and you stutter and fall apart.

      Because I do this to myself. All. The time.

      It’s important to remember that a short pause while you consider your answer is not going to cause people to be upset. Maybe try visualizing a blank document or page, scribble out your answer and then read it out loud.

    3. fposte*

      Do you have a go-to structure for answers, like STAR or something, or are you creating them from scratch every time? If the latter, I think it might be worth trying to follow a structure for a while–that way you know where to start–and, of course, to practice a lot. (That’s what time in the shower is for, right?)

    4. Bend & Snap*

      If you’re not already doing it, have someone mock interview you face to face. Do it with different people a few times if you can. That will help you get used to verbally delivering answers and should help you be more comfortable with the situation.

      1. ProductiveDyslexic*

        Agreed. You could try videoing or recording it too.

        (I once had a mock interview videoed. Turns out I slouch dreadfully.)

    5. CheeryO*

      Practice, practice, practice. This is totally me, and the only reason I got better at interviewing is because I went on 10+ in-person interviews over the course of about six months. (If I had been brave enough to practice with a friend and record it, I think I could have cut the learning curve down significantly.) Some people just need more time to get comfortable with the pattern of being asked a question, formulating a response, and verbalizing it – and that’s okay!

      Also, “weeks of prep” makes me think you were over-prepared. Maybe next time, you can just think about the basic concepts that you want to get across for a variety of questions. I know I did much better when I used visual techniques to prepare for interviews (diagrams, key words, etc.), rather than reading my prepared answers a hundred times, but that’s just my learning style.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Practice your answers out loud in front of the mirror every day. If you can, get a recorder and record yourself. When you stutter, practice saying “excuse me”. (not every single time, though. Don’t go overboard.) Inhale a nice deep breath before you start speaking.

      This is a pain, this is boring, this is time consuming- it’s all that. You’re right. It will also help.

    7. catsAreCool*

      Try joining Toastmasters – this is a good way to get more used to public speaking. The Toastmasters I know tend to be pretty supportive, which helps a lot. Also, most of the people I know who joined Toastmasters did so because of a fear or awkwardness in public speaking, so there’s a lot of empathy.

  75. Jen*

    I JUST GOT A CALL FOR A PHONE INTERVIEW!!! ::snoopy dance::

    Next Wednesday for a company that from what I’ve read/heard has a good work environment, and seems to be good salary range. This is the first bite I’ve had in like, 5 months, I’m so relieved to finally get some type of response! And couldn’t be better timing as I just found out they’re restructuring my contract where I’m currently at, and I may not be quite full time starting next month depending on work load.

    Now if I can just keep my excitement/nerves in check, lol

    1. Tea Pot Maiden*

      woohoo! I had a phone screen this morning for a contract job I really want and will take me till the end of this year…

      so yep, ::snoopy dance::!

  76. chewbecca*

    Any fidigiters out there have tips on how to control it during interviews or meetings?

    I have a horrible habit of playing with my fingers (okay, picking at my cuticles), or messing with my engagement ring. Also, swivel chairs are my downfall. I tend to slowly twist back and forth in them – not all the way around, just from left to right and back again. Normally, I don’t mind any of these, but they come across as less than professional in interviews/meetings.

    When I focus on not doing them, I lose focus on the interview/meeting itself and seem distracted, but when I focus on the interview I find myself moving slightly in my chair or playing with my fingers.

    1. some1*

      I sit with my hands folded on my lap or on the table. It looks a little prim, but better prim than fidgety.

      1. Tea Pot Maiden*

        this is what I do too… and it helps me cause I tend to talk with my hands a little and I worry in an interview it could be too much, maybe make me look a little less polished id I’m not careful… like hire me or I’ll smack you… well not really ;)

        could it help to do a little exercise that day? I just took a walk on the treadmill and showered before a phone screening and I felt like it helped me calm down, a little. Get a little energy out. Good luck!

    2. Jen*

      I tend to hold onto something, notebook, other hand, pen, and try to just grip and relax to keep my nerves under control (doesn’t always happen, sometimes I still end up bouncing my leg). I know someone who said they tap/wiggle their toes, not enough to noticeably move their shoes/jiggle their foot, but enough to provide an outlet for nervous energy. Not sure if either of those would help?

    3. Celeste*

      Substitute something invisible. Clench a muscle. Take a deep breath. Have a mental image that you can go to. Do something, just make it invisible.

    5. Anonsie*

      I move something they can’t see– toes in shoes is one, or foot if it’s behind a desk and out of anyone’s line of sight. I run/press my thumb over my fingernails under my notepad or at my side where it’s not really noticeable as well, and make more general gestures when I’m talking. Making a more deliberate movement (hand gesture, facial expression or nod of head, changing position in seat) when you want to just twitch is a good one.

  77. FlapperGurl*

    This is more a philosophical question: Do you think that you need to be “engaged” (interested in/driven by your work) to be a superstar employee? I think that’s the conventional wisdom, that in order to be truly high performing, you need to be like that, and that if you’re not your probably not right for the role. But there’re lots of jobs that I just have a hard time imagining anyone being excited about and I think I have been a truly high performer in jobs that I just did not care much about at the end of the day.

    1. Hard Worker*

      I have been a hard worker at grueling temp jobs in factories & housekeeping at a motel during grad school. Work ethic is work ethic. I really hate all this advice about coddling people who should be grateful to have jobs. If they don’t like their job, okay fine. Do it anyway and do the best you can. At the very least you will have a positive reference for the jobs you apply for later in life.

      All these precious little butterflies who need their managers to hold their hands need to toughen up.

      1. Kelly L.*

        This seems overly harsh, especially since I think the question is coming from the other side of the argument–i.e. I think FlapperGurl is arguing that you can do a good job even when you don’t love your job, therefore you’re agreeing with her, so why the tone?

        I agree with you, FlapperGurl–I think it might take more conscious effort to excel in a job you don’t care about, but it can be done, and I’ve done it.

        1. Hard Worker*

          Here’s an example of the kind of tripe I have heard over & over:

          http://www.mindtools.com/pages/article/newTMM_80.htm

          Note that if the employee doesn’t have the ability to do the job it might be necessary to fire him/her but if the employee isn’t motivated all the blame rests on the manager and there’s nothing about letting someone go who isn’t motivated no matter what you do. How about acknowledging that some people are lazy and don’t want to work and will do just enough to get by? You can’t make your environment perfect for every individual. Sometimes the employee just has to decide they are going to do what they’re being paid for.

          So many management training blogs, books, training seminars etc. assume that the manager has the power to influence motivation but we sometimes don’t, and it shouldn’t matter. If you’re being paid to do a job you should deliver on it no matter how you feel.

          I wasn’t arguing against the point, I was adding to it — poor performers aren’t that way because of poor motivation or poor management. It’s because of poor work ethic.

          1. fposte*

            It’s too buzzwordy for me, but I don’t think you can reduce poor performance to just poor work ethic, either; otherwise they’d be poor performers at every job and task, and that’s demonstrably not the case for a lot of people.

            To be honest, the poor work ethic people are the easiest. It’s the people who kill themselves trying to do a job that’s over their head that are heartbreakers.

            1. Hard Worker*

              “lazy” is a buzzword? I’d just once like to see a management book or blog that acknowledges that some people just don’t want to do anything resembling work.

              1. Kelly L.*

                Lazy isn’t a buzzword; the article you linked (the article you didn’t like and called “tripe”) is buzzwordy.

    2. Sascha*

      That’s my job currently…I’m really not engaged in the work, I don’t like it here, management is bad, and I’m looking to get out. But I’m still considered a top performer because I try hard, even when I don’t like the work I’m doing. I think what does engage me is that I try to focus on how this will help the people that I do like – faculty and staff who are great to work with, people I actually want to see succeed.

      Like Hard Worker said, it gets down to work ethic. I can’t really turn off the part of me that works hard.

    3. MaryMary*

      Interesting! I think it depends on the defnition of superstar. There are some jobs where being detail oriented, responsive, and having a good attitude make you a superstar. People used to tell me I was a great cashier: I rang people through very quickly and was friendly and upbeat. I was not passionate about cashiering.

      There are other jobs where being a superstar means a huge investment of time and effort. I think short term, someone can excel even if they’re not excited about the work. Some people are natural overachievers and will almost always be superstars. But long term, you either need to be excited about the work, the organization, or the compensation for the work involved in being a superstar to be worth it.

    4. Bend & Snap*

      People are motivated by different things. Someone may hate sales and be motivated by commission. Or hate cleaning houses but love the flexible schedule. Etc.

      So while it’s ideal to be totally engaged and immersed in one’s work, I don’t think it’s impossible to perform well without that component.

    5. HR Manager*

      Yes. I think you can be productive without being engaged, but I don’t think you can be a superstar without being engaged. IMO, where being a superstar and ‘engagement’ intersect is caring about your work beyond just getting it down. You have an actual emotional investment in your role, your product, your company, and the results.

    6. fposte*

      I’m kind of with Bend & Snap, in that I think people can really perform well without being that invested in the product or the business. Some people get great rewards from improving other people’s lives; some people love process; a lot of people just like to be really good at what they do, and that’s a reward in its own right. I think sometimes “mission” gets oversold, because a lot of really enticing missions aren’t necessarily fun work to do, and it’s okay to find that you don’t like cleaning up after elephants and work in the zoo office instead.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      I read a lot about “being passionate” about your work.

      Um. NO.

      I do believe in natural talents and I think that a person is better off in the long run to try to stay closer to their natural abilities.

      To me, work ethic is more about how you view your commitments in life mostly. What do you do when your interest and drive for your job suddenly dry up and go away? Something has to kick in, because you still have to eat and pay the rent. How you view commitments can help you along.

    8. Chriama*

      I feel like this might come down to semantics, but there are some jobs where you really need to be engaged and some you don’t. Accountant? If you have good attention to detail then you’re probably fine. Advertising executive? Unless you’ve learned how to actively cultivate creativity, you’ll struggle if you don’t like the idea of selling things to people. Doctor? You’ll get sued a lot more if you don’t develop a good bedside manner. You don’t need to be “passionate” about your job. I work in IT. I find computer programs interesting, but when I start dreaming about them at night I know I need to take a vacation. There are some things you won’t do as well if you don’t intrinsically care about them, but doing them “as well” and doing them well enough to keep a job are 2 different things, and work ethic always plays a big factor in job success.

    9. catsAreCool*

      I think it helps to care about what you do, but it’s not absolutely necessary. It sure helps for long term work though.

  78. Christian Troy*

    I don’t know if this is OK or not but here it goes…

    I’ve been job searching for about a year and I found out recently most of the people I went to graduate school with have jobs, and not like irrelevant jobs, like positions that make sense professionally and are great opportunities. It’s really destroyed whatever confidence I had left after countless interviews and applications to the point where my anxiety and depression feelings are getting difficult to shrug off.

    I just don’t know what to do honestly. I don’t really have the money or time for a therapist and the therapist cannot really fix the problem, which is I go on lots of job interviews without any offers and I don’t know what I’m doing wrong. I’ve done all the right things to prepare for interviews and my resume, but it often comes down to me just being not the right match. I don’t know, I’m not sure what I’m even looking for by posting this. I just feel like the last few months have been hard and knowing how easy other people had it has made things even worse.

    1. Celeste*

      I think you should take a break from comparing yourself to others and focus on yourself. Try to figure out what is causing the bad matches. Can you get feedback from the last place you interviewed? Could you be looking in the wrong place, or applying for work at too high or too low of a level? It might be something subtle that you can fix.

      Hang in there; it’s really hard to job hunt when you’re right out of school.

    2. soitgoes*

      Perhaps broaden your horizons when it comes to what constitutes a job that “makes sense.” I have my BA in piano performance, my MA in English lit, and now I do bookkeeping for a cosmetics company. I’m not “using my degree” per se, but my friends fully understand why I enjoy working with makeup all day. I’ve found my niche, which is more important than just following the path that your degree takes you on.

    3. Colette*

      The really good news here is that you’re going on lots of interviews. That tells you that your resume/experience is good enough to get you to the interview.
      Are you preparing with someone else? If not, could you be?
      Have you reviewed Alison’s interview guide?

      1. Christian Troy*

        I have been using Allison’s interview guide and I purchased her e-book, which I thought was really helpful because she goes over “soft” things like email correspondence. I also had a couple of mock interviews where the feedback was I came across as positive, but to be mindful of how fast I was speaking and tighten up a few of my examples that I was using during answers (less wordy, more straight to the point). I had some really great interviews where an offer seemed likely, but then the person never responded to my follow up or told me they found someone perfect and it wasn’t me (that email is burned is forever burned in my brain).

        1. Colette*

          Some of this is a numbers game, I think – if you’re one of two or three people who could be great in the role, but there’s only one role, one or two people are going to be disappointed.

          I think it’s good that you’re taking steps to see what the problem is, but it’s important to remember that it might be partly luck.

          Have you had an interview since you got the feedback about how fast you were speaking and about being less wordy? Did you notice a difference?

    4. Sunflower*

      Job hunting is really hard right out of school so I feel for you. Just remember that everyone you gradated with is just starting too and just because their jobs appear awesome on paper, I doubt anyone is running the company yet. Looking on LinkedIn and seeing a job title or description doesn’t mean anything. On paper, I have a ‘cool’ job and after working here, I’m not sure I want to stay in this ‘cool’ industry.

      Are you coming across as nervous in your interview? Or are your answers sounding like you’re reading them off a page? It’s important to relax a little in interviews and make sure you’re letting yourself really come through(Allison just reposted a post about this today). Have you tried networking? That’s a little more casual and they say the majority of jobs are found through there. How about university alumni association?

      But seriously hang in there. Job searching right out of college is so hard and now that I’ve been in my job

      1. Sunflower*

        for a while, it’s totally transformed the way I think about job hutning

        (sorry got cut off!)

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Go to the library and look for ONE book that might be meaningful to you. Yes, one. Because you should actually read it, if you bring home ten you won’t read anything if you are like me.

      And you are spending way too much time on what your friends are doing. “Doc, it hurts when I do this!” Stop doing it, you are exhausting yourself. Depression can be anger turned inward. Get a punching bag, take up running, burn that anger out of you. Although, you maybe correct in being angry, it won’t help you.

      Connect with people who do not make you feel competitive- make your mind relax for a bit. This can be the nice old person next door, your three year old niece or your stepmother’s cat. Does not matter who it is. (This is a life long habit to cultivate, find a diversity of people at varying stages in life and keep them in your life.)
      And seriously- sometimes the way out of our problem is to turn an help someone with theirs. Look around, can you help someone today? If, no. Look around tomorrow.

      This will get better. Keep trying.

  79. Cath in Canada*

    I had a nice little “small world” moment at a friend’s birthday party last week. I was chatting to a friend of birthday friend, who I’d met a couple of times before, and she mentioned that she’d just unsuccessfully interviewed at a company I worked for several years ago. When I said “oh, I used to work there!”, she asked me what I thought of them, and I mentioned a couple of the pros and cons. She stopped me halfway through a sentence and said “wait, do you also think [something else about the same company that I do think and was actually about to say]?” Confused, I said yes, and she said “oh, I read your Glassdoor review!” I’d actually forgotten that I’d written one, as it was several years ago, but she said she’d read it and it had made her feel better about not getting the job!

    So now I know that my opinions are stable and consistent over the course of several years :)

  80. Frustrated*

    I just got reprimanded for not meeting a deadline I wasn’t told about. I have also been reprimanded for overspending on a budget that I wasn’t given a specific dollar amount for. I need to “manage up” a few people but they really don’t see that their lack of communication is a problem or that it’s unfair to me. I’m just supposed to “know” and apparently some of my coworkers (that I never see) have figured some of this out, because I also get compared to those perfect people. So glad today is open thread day!

    /rant

    1. Bea W*

      My last job was like this. My manager sucked at communication, as did her manager. I got dinged for not meeting expectations I didn’t know about. It was impossible to “manage up” these people were so bad. They not see any need to change anything on their end while expecting me to learn to mind read in order to accomodate workplace dysfunction. When it got to the point it was negatively impacting my health and my career, I got out. If that is an option for you, I highly recommend looking for a new job either internally or with another company. Modern medicine has not yet come up with a way to extract whole heads out of asses.

    2. Colette*

      Have you directly asked for what you need? I.e. “what’s the budget for this”, or “when do you need this by”?
      It sounds like you have, but if you haven’t, that’s the first step.

      Next question: can you ask the “perfect” people how they do it? Would they be willing to share some tips?

  81. Bea W*

    I was a mess at the end of last year when we had our year end shutdown. I resolved to take back my work/life balance by not working after work and leaving on time. So far this year I have managed to stick to it. I was really itchy the first week, especially wanting to tie up loose ends on Friday. I was spending Friday nights on the couch with my laptop working until 11 pm or midnight. I was seriously out of control.

    I feel so much better and much more productive after a rest and sticking to a sane schedule, leaving the office after 8 working hours, getting home and having enough energy left to make supper. My only real downtime at work now is lunch rather than those stretches of being brain dead and unable to focus. I jump right in when I sit down and have crossed things off my list by lunch and feel like I’ve accomplished something other than waking up. What a huge difference! I really hope I can stick with this. We still have more work than resources and it’s such a delicate juggling act. I feel like I could easily slide back into bad habits.

    1. fposte*

      If it helps to have external validation, consider yourself externally validated! That’s a really hard practice to put in place, and I admire you for doing it.

  82. AvonLady Barksdale*

    I have been at our company headquarters for a week of training. It’s been great and I’ve been very busy and I learned A TON. I also learned that I am integral to the company’s growth plan– I am the most-experienced person at my level and I’m the highest paid. As part of that, I was, just yesterday, given a massive, amazing project that will make our company shine. When it’s all over, my CEO wants our client to think I am the greatest thing that ever happened to them. Our client is giant and very visible, and this project is intended to integrate major changes for them. I have been told that I need to think big and think strategically, and that they know I can do it and I have their utmost trust and support. No one in my career– or my life, really– has ever told me that I am great and smart the way this company has.

    Of course, I am completely freaking out. I nearly burst into tears at my hotel last night. Objectively, I know I can do this. I also know that this project is so important, I will not be left alone. A few people have told me this. I know I am competent. So how do I battle the imposter syndrome? Has anyone been given a massive endeavor two months in and lived to tell the tale? I want the stories.

    I also want advice on how to keep my sanity in check over the next few months, because life is about to get crazy. My first step will be hiring someone to clean my house.

    1. periwinkle*

      Breathe. Keep breathing. You’ll be okay! I was hired a year ago, with a little experience after grad school, and immediately handed a high-profile project. All of our projects have sponsors in upper management (it makes life easier for getting buy-in for what we need), and the sponsors for this project are the top-of-the-org-chart people in the relevant divisions.

      Terrified? You bet. Reeling from Imposter Syndrome? Absolutely. Wondering how I could even get started? Yup. And yet, I’m still sane (well, in the context of my usual level of sanity) after a year on the project.

      Just keep reminding yourself that you were put on this project because The Powers That Be wanted it to succeed and believed that you were the person who could make that happen. Hire a house cleaner, memorize carryout menus, whatever works to lighten the pressure on your off-hours is good. We ate a lot of pizza for a while!

      Like you, this was a new experience in being told how integral I was to a company’s goals. Yeah, that was the trigger that really set off the Imposter Syndrome alarm bells in my head. They faded away eventually as I got comfortable with that (eeek, terrifying) idea.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Battle imposter syndrome, keep your sanity- both have the same answer. Write your plan- or start an outline of it at any rate.
      And write a plan for how you plan to keep your personal life more or less together, also.

      Put pencil to paper. It will help to rope in all these random thoughts you are having and it will help your mind to focus.

  83. hildi*

    I know this is a bit not workplace related, but it IS site related: Is Jamie around here anymore? I went on a long hiatus from reading and commenting for the past few months and wonder if I missed some kind of announcement from her that she’s really has formed Skull Island and is now living and reigning there…….? I miss her.

      1. hildi*

        yeah, that’s a good point. I’m not very witty. I sat there trying to think of something snappy to say, but I goofed it up. LOL. The imagery of Skull Island cracks me up.

        1. Anonsie*

          No I’m pretty happy about it, every time someone references Skull Island I feel mildly famous hahaha

    5. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I just emailed her and let her know that people miss her and that we hope she’s okay. And now I can’t decide if I’m the crazy blog owner who won’t let a regular commenter gracefully move on to other interests :)

      1. hildi*

        Impossible! Jamie wouldn’t abandon us. You’re the only one with the power to know how to reach out to her – thank you fearless leader!

      2. Elizabeth West*

        I wouldn’t think so, because she’s been here so much that she’s really a part of the core community. And if it were me, I’d be chuffed to know that internet people care if I’m okay. :)

      3. Not So NewReader*

        I bet she would cue you in if she was moving on. I think she will surface at some reasonable (for her) point. I think she likes it here too much to give it up entirely.

      4. Lore*

        Thank you for that–I would assume that even if she’s moved on intentionally (which would be a real loss t0 us all) she will let you know what’s going on…

  84. Allison*

    RANT:

    I’m bored at work, and I’m tired of it. Believe me, I try to take advantage of downtime by working on independent projects which should (hopefully) make my life easier when work picks up, but I can only do that for so long. I was brought in so the team wouldn’t outsource so much work to third parties, and yet I’ll often ask about a project and be told “oh, we’re getting an agency to take care of that. yeah, I know, but these guys are really good and I know someone there, and we need this done quickly. plus, this one’s really tough so we need a real expert.” Then, for the projects I am put on, I’m eventually told to hit pause on my contributions because I’ve done enough and they need to catch up, or I’m told “we’re good for now, I’ll let you know if you need to get back in here.” THEN, I’m told that I’ll be put on an upcoming project, but I gotta sit tight because they don’t have all the information yet. People keep telling me I’m gonna be really busy very soon, yet I never am.

    Here’s the thing: I wasn’t hired to sit tight, I wasn’t hired to hold off, I wasn’t hired to twiddle my thumbs while the work they selected me to do is still outsourced to expensive agencies, all while people insist my work is great. If it’s so great, why isn’t it wanted on more projects? Why do people complain about being “soooo busy” and then, when I offer my help, suddenly insist they “got this”?

    1. loxthebox*

      Ugh, I can kind of relate.

      My company is apparently ridiculously busy and we keep hiring new people to keep up, but we aren’t even properly utilizing the people who are already here. I know myself and a number of coworkers who have little to do most of the time and when I ask for more work it’s a similar story. So frustrating.

  85. Young Millenial*

    What to do about work place cliques?

    I’ve been at this workplace for less than a year. It’s a great fit for my recent-grad-no-experience self. The only thing that’s driving me crazy and making me want to quit is the workplace clique in my department. I work in an open area with other young women who’ve been working together for years so they’re a closeknit clique.

    Frankly, I’m not interested in the same things they are or care about the subjects they talk about, and I really don’t want to join their clique. The problem is that I feel quite isolated and really uncomfortable speaking up or working with them. I get along with my managers and people in other departments though. I don’t need to be friends with the girls in my department (nor do I want to be because we’re different people), but I do find it really unpleasant to work here. I mostly just put on my headphones and focus on work.

    They also arrange and go on social outings (lunches, dinners) with more senior staff in my department, which adds to my pressure to “fit in” if I want to advance in my department. They share good assignments with each other and are more likely to train or promote each other to my managers. If I want a future here, what do I need to do about them?

    1. soitgoes*

      It sucks, but you can’t just jump in on key events (the dinners) without also putting legwork into building friendships with your coworkers, even though you’re honest here about not wanting to do that. Next time you overhear them talking about a dinner, say, “Oooohh, I love that restaurant, I love their chicken/steak/etc” and see if an invitation is extended. They probably sense that you don’t really care for them. Nothing wrong with that, but overall, it’s a good thing to nurture working relationships with coworkers even if there aren’t dinners and lunches in the mix.

    2. Burlington*

      I would say, one, do the things they’re doing, as far as scheduling lunches (for yourself) with higher-ups (I’m assuming that if they can do that, you can too). But the second is to just be helpful. Ask if there’s anything you can take off one of their hands. Heck, offer up a sweet project or two yourself (if you can do so without endangering your own job).

      The key is to engage in the *work* aspects of the stuff they’re doing, without engaging in the social/interpersonal (but still being quite friendly). They have to know that they benefit from your being around even if you’re not all friends.

      But it sounds like there might be a bigger problem… like, what are they doing to you that is so bad that you’re considering quitting? Surely just not inviting you to lunch or giving you projects isn’t enough to create that miserable of an environment (especially when you’re new enough that they might just not trust your skills yet, and are being unwise but not necessarily rude by not giving you much chance to prove them)?

      1. Young Millenial*

        I didn’t expand on why I’m really unhappy because I didn’t want it to just be a rant. I’m really fed up with them because they don’t work and spend their time talking loudly, making personal calls, looking up gossip or watching things on YouTube, etc. There’s a pecking order too with an obnoxious queen bee who the rest suck up to. One girl rudely interrupts and hijacks my conversations with other people to get attention and acceptance from others. I would be talking to someone and she would just interrupt and push me out of the way, acting like I don’t exist. She’s also said some snarky things to me because I’ve been doing a really good job since starting which my managers acknowledge (because I actually work instead of spend my time doing other things like they do), and she feels overtaken by the youngest and newest. It’s just petty, small things that it’s silly to even talk about, but they build up a really uncomfortable environment for me to work in.

        Anyway, in short, I tried to get along with them when I first started but I just never fit in because I really don’t want to talk about celebrities, TV shows, personal businesses, family/friends’ businesses, etc. I feel that to fit in, I’d have to do what they do, which is fawn over the queen bee and fake interests in what they care about. I really do feel like I’d be compromising my personality and individuality by trying to fit in with them, but at the same time, I feel like I can’t move forward if I don’t get along with my coworkers.

        1. Burlington*

          Ugh, yeah, that sounds rough. But at least if your managers are noticing you’re good work, you’re (hopefully, unless your workplace is totally dysfunctional) to advance over them anyway, because surely they’ve noticed the difference in work ethic/output.

          If you have real prospects for a promotion where you wouldn’t have to deal with them, you might stick it out, but looking for a new job and citing the rudeness in an exit interview might be your best path forward. :(

          1. Young Millenial*

            Well, I have spoken to my manager about taking on more responsibilities and she has seemed responsive to it. The thing is, if I do get a promotion, I would still have to be working with them, and I’m tired of them. Hence why I feel like I have to either learn to deal with them or quit in a year so I won’t seem like a jobhopper. :(

        2. LolaK*

          I’m in a similar environment so I do understand. What actually bothers you about them- the fact that they are a clique or that they aren’t working very hard? Sometimes I get annoyed at the chatty crew while I am toiling away. However, I will be the one to grow and develop while they will stay stagnant since they aren’t putting in the work. That being said-I would suggest at least trying to form a basic relationship- smiling, asking how they are doing etc. There is no need to be overly invested or fake but it does help mitigate negative feelings when at least you a cordial relationship.

        3. Lulubell*

          I once worked in a situation similar to this. A bunch of girls I really didn’t care for or have much in common with, and who essentially felt the same about me. We were cordial, but I focused on my work instead of socializing, and ultimately my boss came to love me because I WASN’T those girls. I was the one who got things done, acted professionally, and so got the good assignments. I just acted like myself, focused on the work and my clients. The cream rises to the top. That said, it wasn’t a particularly happy environment for me, and though the boss liked me, it really wasn’t a great fit overall, so I ultimately moved on. There’s nothing wrong with looking for a new position if you feel you just don’t fit into this one. But I wouldn’t assume that just because you aren’t gelling with one group of people that your chances for success at the company are doomed.

  86. AHN*

    I have a Skype interview on Tuesday – described as a preliminary interview, about 15-20 minutes with three people from the department I’d be working in. Any tips? This is the first time I’ve ever done one, and I do plan to practice over the weekend with the general setup, but advice on how to manage the delay, is it OK to take notes, etc., would be great.

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Remember to look at the camera lens, not at the screen. It’ll feel weird, because you won’t be looking at their faces, but to them they will see you looking directly at them instead of slightly below them.

      1. rPM*

        +1 to looking at the camera. For a Skype interview, I’d suggest taking notes with pen and paper because the typing noises over the microphone can get pretty loud. Try to do your setup practice at the same time of day as the real interview to figure out the best lighting. You might also want to think about whether there are any background noises you can mitigate (a Kong full of peanut butter is great for keeping noisy dogs quiet for 20 minutes).

      2. CAP*

        Put a sticky note up there! (Not over the camera…) But I’ve put a little note with a smiley face so I remember to smile as well.

        Does your computer make a noise when you get mail? Close your mail application and anything else that makes sound during the interview. It can be really distractingg!

    3. JR*

      Make sure you have a good background image behind you–something professional, not an ironing board or a toilet or kitchen sink. Also, make sure the lighting is good. It sounds weird, but “key lighting” is important–putting a light in front of and and NEVER below you.

      Also, make sure the camera is level with your face.

      Before the interview, briefly position yourself, light yourself, etc. and then record a brief video and watch it to see your appearance. I know nobody likes to see themselves on video but it’s important to make sure you don’t look shadowy, or that your face is at a weird angle, etc.

    4. AnotherHRPro*

      Practice video recording yourself prior to the interview in the same location/set-up you will do the interview. That way you can check-out if there are background noise issues, lighting issues, anything on the wall behind you that is distracting, etc. Be sure to set up your Skype window so that their face is near the camera so it looks like you are making eye contact. Good luck!!

    5. Gene*

      No need to go with a professional backdrop, but figure out a way to hang a sheet or something similar behind you.

      Lighting, from in front of you and diffuse. Ideal would be natural sunlight through something like (again) a white sheet; barring that, incandescent light directed on the wall behind your monitor. Nothing undiffused shining directly on your face.

      Camera, best way to look at the camera is to use one that’s not built into your monitor and mount it at eye level of the person you are talking with in front of your monitor.

      Sound, most built-in mics are crap. pick up an inexpensive lavalier mic and place it someplace unobtrusive (I hide mine behind my beard), but not someplace where fabric will be rubbing across it. Make sure you have someplace quiet to do the interview from and avoid things like sex noises https://www.askamanager.org/2014/03/my-coworkers-heard-my-roommates-having-sex-while-i-was-on-a-conference-call.html :)

      Make sure whoever you practice with is capable of being brutally honest about your setup, the better your setup, the better you’ll come across. Even though it may not be conscious, if your sound is clear and understandable, your lighting flattering and not harsh, you’ll have a leg up on someone equally qualified doing their interview sitting in front of a window at a Starbucks.

  87. the gold digger*

    Trying not to be cranky that I got an invitation to a work baby shower for a woman I don’t even know. All the women in are invited – we are about nine percent of the population in this office. It is a potluck and we have been asked to bring presents. Her male co-workers will join us after the gift opening for lunch.

    1. Shouldn’t it be just her co-workers?
    2. Why shouldn’t the men have to suffer through the gift opening?
    3. Why shouldn’t the men have to bring food? Or presents?

    I am trying to reposition my thinking and look at this as an opportunity for me to meet some other people in the organization. But honestly, I thought we were done with this kind of sex-specific work function 20 years ago.

    1. soitgoes*

      The potluck thing is obnoxious, especially if the men aren’t asked to bring food as well. Though…I assume that all of your coworker’s non-work friends will be bringing food as well, so the numbers aren’t as skewed as they seem at first. But honestly, I wouldn’t assume that any of the men will actually show up.

      1. the gold digger*

        I get the idea it’s work people only. It’s a surprise, but I guess that doesn’t mean her non-work friends couldn’t be invited.

        I guess this one by itself isn’t so awful – it’s just that there have been so many showers in my past where I have had to pay for and arrange showers for co-workers I didn’t even like, just because I was one of The Women. I really thought those days were over!

        1. soitgoes*

          You know, I don’t always mind all of the weird little parties (engagement party! bachelorette party! gender-reveal party! bridal shower!), if only because that friend is clearly on her way toward a life track (new motherhood) where I won’t be able to socialize much with her for a while. However, I agree it’s annoying when attendees are expected to help pay for everything. I hate the bridesmaid culture that removes the burden of hosting parties from the hostesses.

    2. some1*

      I’m with you, but I have worked with women who felt snubbed when they weren’t invited to a baby shower at work even when they didn’t know the mom-to-be.

    4. Cat*

      Well, that’s offensive. Just inviting the women wouldn’t be my choice at an office shower but fine. But inviting the men for lunch and expecting the women to cook for them? Absolutely not.

    5. Malissa*

      Can you email back and say the guys seem to have the sweet side of that deal and you’d love to be counted in with them?
      Then you can just go and enjoy the food.
      Right after I started my last job I got invited to a baby shower for a co-workers wife. Only the girls at work were invited. It was the most awkward event ever. After that I just bought a kick-ass baby gift for the next moms at work and skipped the shower.

    6. ThursdaysGeek*

      I’ve always spoken up about showers, including my own. (I said that if guys weren’t invited, I wasn’t coming.) For a work shower, most definitely anyone invited should be invited to the entire part, anyone attending the potluck should bring food too, and co-workers should be invited by proximity or closeness to the co-worker, not by gender.

      I sometimes go with the clueless approach “why aren’t the guys invited, don’t they work with her too? Oh they’re only invited to the potluck? Why? Shouldn’t her male co-workers get a chance to give her a gift too? If they’re eating why wouldn’t they be expected to bring food to the potluck?” Make her spell out for you that they are only inviting the women because …why?

    7. catsAreCool*

      Sounds like a good time to say that you have other plans. No need to tell anyone that your other plans might be kicking back and watching TV or something.

  88. McCracken*

    I have two questions
    1. I had two interviews at a University for an admin position. How long do you think it will take for an offer / rejection? They said they would be getting back to the candidates shortly and would be calling references.
    2. What is a nice way of not telling my current job (been here 14 months) were I go when I give my resignation? (I just dont like the people here and really want to just say Iam taking time off for personal family time, but that would be a lie).

    1. fposte*

      Timeline could be anything from two weeks to forever, unfortunately. It takes a while to chase down references and then reconvene the search folks, and the new semester’s coming on like a truck. Good luck to you!

      I don’t really understand “I don’t like them” as reason not to tell people where you’re going–are they harassy enough that you think they might turn up there? If not, I’d just say “Yes, I found another position,” and if they say “Where?” you can broadly say “At the university.” I think that’ll end a conversation faster than being mysterious.

      1. McCracken*

        Sorry I could have been more clear with I dont like them. They are gossips and miserable. They just always seem so unhappy about everything in life and work. Part of the reason I never felt like this was the job for me. I am more upbeat and glass half full.
        I guess I just don’t to chat with them about life after I leave this gray dungeon.

      2. Sascha*

        “reconvene the search folks” – that’s another part of it, my department always does hiring by committee, so even after the hiring manager gets all the references, he or she still wants to talk to the group and that can take a while. Especially since in my department, most of us telecommute and are not in the office on the same day.

    2. Sascha*

      Depends on the university, but typically in higher ed things are SLOW. Sloth stuck in molasses slow. And if it’s a public university, there are usually a lot of state government regulations in play. At my university, we have to interview at least 3 candidates – even if only 2 apply, we have to wait until a third one appears (magically!) and keep reposting the job, even if we have interviewed the 2 and want to hire one of them. Positions must stay open for 30 days, so we typically don’t even get to interview until the 30 days are up. There are also factors such as how busy the hiring manager is. So it could be a couple of weeks do to do the reference check, or longer than a month.

      For your second question, is telling them you got a job at X University just not an option? I have resigned from places before that I didn’t like, and I kept it simple and vague – I told them where I was going, but no more details. If they push, just go with the “it’s a great opportunity” thing and change the subject.

      1. McCracken*

        Thank you.
        Do you think I can tell them, I think some of them will know who Iam going to work for and might be surprised since its a very similar position. Can I say it’s at University x and say ill be doing similar stuff as i do now.

        1. fposte*

          I think that’s fine. Pro forma, dull, not likely to elicit digging, they’ll forget it five minutes after you say it. Mission accomplished :-).

        2. Sascha*

          That is exactly what I did when moving from my last job to my current job. It was a switch from one university to another in basically the same position. No one really cared, and the one or two people who did press me for details didn’t get any. Good luck and I hope you hear from them soon!

  89. rPM*

    What’s the best way to approach a feedback conversation with a direct report when other staff have mentioned a problem to you, but you haven’t directly witnessed the behavior yourself? I’ve been told that an employee is displaying a high level of frustration over his work at times when I’m not personally present. I suspect he keeps it more in check when I’m around and isn’t as careful to hide his feelings if I’m not there. I’d like to talk about what’s causing him so much frustration and work on some strategies / solutions while also helping this person understand that he’s alienating the rest of the team with his negativity, but I’m not sure how to best bring it up when this is something he does when I’m not around. My typical method for giving feedback relies pretty heavily on being able to describe a specific behavior that I’ve observed, and I’m hesitant to create even more tension between this person and others on the team by saying that it’s something other people have come to me about. Am I overthinking this? (I’m probably overthinking this.)

    1. Celeste*

      Can you try to witness the behavior?

      I agree that it’s hard to discuss hearsay. I think you could schedule a meeting to talk about how it’s going. Ask about specifics the person has accomplished and see if he gets tense about it so you can take it from there. I’m wondering if the work product has been what you’re looking for–is it timely, complete, of the quality you need, etc? If any of those are off, that’s an opening. If you can get him to talk about problems, you can address the negativity that you see in him then, and describe what a problem it is for the group if it continues.

      1. rPM*

        Thanks! I really like your idea to discuss the specific pieces of work and use his reaction as a way to initiate the conversation about the frustration level. The work that’s being produced is actually really good, deadlines are being met, etc. Thinking more about the types of things that lead to this person getting frustrated, it seems to be tasks that are either new to him or things that don’t have a very black and white right/wrong answer. We’re in somewhat of a startup environment and there’s not always a formal procedure to follow. While I try to focus the majority of this person’s time on more concrete work, I do need him to be able to help out with more exploratory projects at times.

        1. Celeste*

          I wonder if that’s his style for how he approaches life? Maybe he has sort of a low threshold for frustration? He needs to know he can still feel that way without being disruptive to the group. He may not have gotten that feedback before; it’s a skill we all need to have in a workplace, so you are doing the right thing to confront it. I hope it goes well!

    2. Not So NewReader*

      You may have to step out and suddenly “remember something” and come back.

      But I say, if he can control it when you are around, he can control it when you are not around also.

  90. Pizza Lover*

    Happy Friday everyone! I was going to email Allison with this question but I figure that I can ask you guys and still get a great response. I’m a recent grad and I enjoy my current job, but due to some issues with management and lack of growth, I’ve been job hunting. I revised my resume and wrote some strong cover letters applying to positions that I actually want (using the great advice listed here on this site and in Allison’s book!) but I still want to make use of my personal referrals. I’m going to contact a manager that I worked with not too long ago (we still have a great relationship), but I’m wondering how I should go about contacting a supervisor that I had about two years back.

    I interned at a counseling center and while I did not work directly with the executive director on a day-to-day, I was responsible for a few specific projects that really helped the organization out and did report directly to her during that time. She always complimented me on the way that I handled the projects (no one had ever done anything like it there before and the files were pretty outdated and unclear, etc.). Any advice on how to contact her about forwarding my resume even though I haven’t followed up in a couple of years? (To be clear, I am much closer with the woman who had been my direct manager but she is no longer there for personal reasons; last I checked she was no longer even in the workforce so while ideally I would contact her above anyone else, I’m not sure it makes sense to.)

    1. AnotherHRPro*

      Most managers are used to getting resumes from family, friends, ex-colleagues, etc. I would just write her an e-mail to reconnect. Let her know what you are doing and that you are currently looking for new opportunities. Let her know that you’ve attached your resume in the event she is aware of any openings. Don’t be nervous about it or feel bad for not staying in touch. This sort of thing is very normal and she won’t mind that you reached out to her.

  91. neighborhood friendly QA tech*

    So I emailed in a few weeks ago, but things have changed a bit. I am a temp in a quality assurance position for a chocolate plant (for real). They usually do all hiring internally or through Temps. A quality tech who was hired has since gone on maternity leave, and once she returns, will be moving to a new position.
    They are hiring direct for her old position, which is the exact same as the one I’m in, but hired instead of temp. They have done interviews already, I’m just playing the waiting game now. The kicker though is, the hiring manager is my current manager, and he isn’t supposed to inform me, even if I’m hired.
    So here I am just being ansy. It’s been a week, and it’s hard to let it go since it is pretty much my exact job. Evidently some of the production floor workers talked to my boss about it though, it seems strange that I’m well liked by them, when half my job is to inspect their product and reject it if it is bad.

    1. fposte*

      I…don’t know how to cope with a literal chocolate job after all our figurative use :-). But it sounds like you’re in a strong position, especially if the people whose work you’re triaging think you’re doing well. So just lick your fingers and hang in there.

      [I realize you can’t really lick your fingers.]

        2. kozinskey*

          I love that “QA tech at a chocolate plant” is a real job that people do. Why didn’t I choose that as a career path again?

        3. neighborhood friendly QA tech*

          Well its not a physical area, but a data entry area. You check the flavor while it is in a giant tank, and again when it is actually being “moulded”.

          I actually sort of fell into this job and love it, not only because I get to eat chocolate on the job. It certainly helps when the stress gets high though.

        4. Shell*

          Now I’m really curious as to how y’all quantify flavour, especially considering how people can taste the same thing somewhat differently.

          1. fposte*

            Not speaking for our actual informed tech, but tasting as a professional is really different than as an amateur; there are interesting studies on that.

          2. neighborhood friendly QA tech*

            I haven’t been through the training, but I’ve seen coworkers do it for the panel. They usually taste for “off notes” and there is a scale of how different or similar it tastes to another sample. If I remember correctly, “green” is an off note.

            In normal day to day flavor testing, it’s on a pass/fail basis.

  92. Daydreamer*

    Ok, I have a question. I work at a large post-secondary educational institution. A job I’m interested in has been posted in our department, and I’m >< this close to submitting my resume. I've been told by a few people that I should talk to my boss (who would continue to be my boss) and let him know I'm putting my name forward, and ask him what he sees as being the ideal candidate for this role. Kind of a "What would I need to do in order to get this job?" kind of conversation.

    But here's my issue. I'm an introvert and struggle when I'm nervous to make a coherent statement that doesn't sound scattered and rushed. How do I do this? I know I have nothing to lose – if I don't get the job, I don't, but at least I had the conversation kind of thing – but I think I'm struggling with asking the question and worrying about what I'll hear (I feel like he's pigeon-holed me and I'm letting that hold me back). The role I'm in right now is one that isn't a good fit, and I've struggled a while with finding my definition of "success" in the job. It's challenging and frustrating, and doesn't come with good support. The job I want will be working with a central department that has solid strategic plans and great leaders.

    Long story short, I want the job. How can I get past my butterflies to ask the questions?

    1. Colette*

      Practice what you’re going to say – out loud. (Preferably when you’re alone – I wouldn’t recommend doing it on the bus or something.)

    2. soitgoes*

      I think it would be perfectly reasonable to say, “I’m thinking about applying for the position. Can you give me some more information about it?” and then show a good amount of interest while he answers.

    3. Fawn*

      Can you point out your strengths, and how you see the new job as playing to them (particularly strengths that he may have recognized in you in performance reviews or previous conversations)? Something like: “I noticed that Alumni Development is hiring for a new Assistant Content Writer. I love the communications part of my current role, and the positive feedback you’ve given me has really bolstered my confidence. I feel ready to move into a role that focuses more on writing, and I’m considering applying. I’m curious, do you think that I’d be a good fit for what you’re looking for?”

  93. Masters Degree Searcher*

    JD masters govt contractor here. Current contract was ending and just got a contract offer of $60,000 salary elsewhere for 8 months (potentially renewable during bidding at 8 month point). My mom asked me if I negotiated for enough and said $60k isn’t that much (she’s been pressing me to enter private practice to make six figures instead, I have horrible carpal tunnel affecting test-taking abilities, failed bar 3x despite barbri)…etc.

    I consulted with attorneys from a bar testing group, a criminal defense firm/blogger-atty, and a tristate attorney all of whom advise me to wait a year and avoid burnout, and to pursue my career to my heart’s content. I forwarded their words summed up to my mom and her response was “I’m worried about you” etc, but she’s really thinking that she’s worried about what her friends/neighbors will think. (Her older sister is married to a wealthy person and goes to major country clubs, and my mom’s always envied that lifestyle).

    1. Does anyone have experience as a writer or similar, in a contracting capacity?
    2. Also, how does the bidding process work? I already have another company interested in my work after the 8 months are over but I don’t know whether to stay/go or if I’ll be booted off at the end of the 8 months (knock on wood). Advice?

    Thanks….

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Not what you asked- but your mom is a bit too involved here…. I can’t see how that can be helpful in all this.

  94. Saleslady*

    I work for a very small (~10 people) sales office in financial services. We don’t have a formal HR department, and I am part of the hiring team focused on expansion. This isn’t my forte, but this blog definitely helps.

    Where are the good candidates looking for job postings? We’ve tried LinkedIn, recruiting services, monster.com, college career offices and have had the most luck with CraigsList, but that is about 1 potentially good candidate for every 50 resumes. We’re in NYC. Help?

    1. Burlington*

      Depending on the level of control you have to make the sales jobs of your team not crappy, a key might be to stress how not crappy your sales jobs are compared to others. There are a lot of people who will just be scared away by anything sales. But others might give it a chance if you can show what makes your sales jobs different and better than the other sales jobs they’re seeing.

      1. Saleslady*

        The job is great…except for the first few months where you make lots of cold calls. This is phone sales and this seems to be the best method to get people comfortable on the phone. It can be very discouraging, but it is temporary. We try to emphasize this during our interview process.

        My question is, are people looking on craigslist and just not clicking on our ad? Or is there some better source to find candidates that I don’t know about.

        1. voluptuousfire*

          Are your job listings clear and concise? Also with the CL ads, are they confidential ads or do they list the company? If it’s the former, I’d really recommend listing who you are. Craigslist ads can be so shady (especially in NYC!) so giving info on who the company is so people can Google you and get a feel for what you do is really important.

  95. Anonsie*

    I’m wavering about this being better suited for the non-work or work open thread, but I’m thinking I’ll get better responses in this one.

    I’m very very short, scarcely five feet, with a really short torso, high hips, and a rather bottom heavy (especially in the thighs) figure overall. I need to figure out what type/shape of suit is not going to make me look squatty or frumpy. I’m really looking for something that will sort of lend authority with the sharpness of it, if that makes sense. Pencil skirts are sheath dresses are not my friends, but finding those sharp slim cut pants that actually fit my whole heavy bottomed shape is not working out either. I’m slim overall but proportioned in a way that makes me look three times my size in structured clothing and I’m not sure how to combat it.

    Background: I’m applying to medical school this year and I need at least one new suit for interviews and professional conferences (medical specialty). Despite being a fair bit older than most med students, I’m younger than most of the attendings and scientists still. I get talked down to a lot in my line of work because many people often assume I can’t actually know what I’m talking about, something a lot of you in the sciences have probably experienced at some point. I’m trying to upgrade my wardrobe to really head that off, and especially at these interviews because my experience is the biggest bonus I have going for me as a non-traditional med school applicant. I need to really look like I know what the eff I’m doing, and because of my size and shape every time I put on a suit I really just feel like an auntie.

    So, any help? Ways to sort of age yourself, look sharp while short, etc?

    1. Burlington*

      My instincts are saying high-waisted pencil skirt with a well-tailored short matching blazer/suit jacket. But you say pencil skirts are not your friends?

      If you can afford to do so, I’d suggest hitting up a Nordstrom (or similar high-end department store) and getting a sort of personalized look with the help of sales reps. They’ll be better at figuring out what cuts look best on you (and really, you don’t have to walk out with anything but info, but if you can afford to buy a really sharp tailored suit that someone guides you to, it’s probably a good thing!)

      Having a second set of expert eyes might either guide you to cuts you never knew existed, or give you a reassurance that something you *thought* wasn’t flattering really is/can be.

      Also, pointy-toed shoes supposedly make you look taller. And they tend to look on the severe side of professional, which it sounds like you’re looking for!

      1. Anonsie*

        Yep, see: short torso, high hips. I have about, I don’t know, six whole inches from the bottom of my bust to the top of where my pants would normally sit. So once you’re talking about tucked in shirts things start to look bad fast, and a high-waisted pencil skirt is fine with a blouse but once you throw a blazer on top it’s like suit fabric with a pair of boobs in the middle. There’s no waist between the bust and the top of the skirt, which can work when you can see the blouse (and the blouse is short-sleeved) but bad with a jacket or long sleeves.

    2. kozinskey*

      I’m tall but proportioned a lot like you with a short torso and giant thighs. I’ve found that if I have a structured top on, slim cut pants and pointed toe shoes work just fine. (The pointed toe is key.) For a more professional look, I prefer collared button-downs under suits over a shell or anything with a neckline below the neck. Also, one thing that can really help a suit is tailoring. Most good suits aren’t really designed to be worn off the rack — they often are cut big around the middle so you can take them to be fitted for your body.

      1. Anonsie*

        Nothing fits me off the rack, pretty much everything I own is tailored in one place or another.

        So what do you mean by “structured top?”

    3. brightstar*

      Ok, I’m 5’0 and bottom heavy so maybe I can help. My first thought is an A-lined skirt suit to help balance your thighs out as well as concealing them a little. I find skirts are more flattering than pants for me personally, but of course your mileage may vary. And definitely not a button down, but maybe a nice camisole top in a jewel-tone and a suit jacket that really helps to define the waist?

      I like the Investment pieces at Dillard’s. They’re pretty low in price and they carry petites with a wide range of sizes.

    4. Lore*

      I have the same short-waisted issue, and I tend to wear knit shells rather than blouses under a suit–if you get them in petite sizes (Jones New York makes the one I seem to most often buy), they’re cut for a short waist and stop at the natural hip. There are also shirts that are cut shorter and with a straight hem that are designed to be worn untucked–I have an old J Crew in this cut, but someone must make them now–that can work.

    5. voluptuousfire*

      A bit off an odd question, but do your hips curve out like an hourglass or does the high hips jut out from your torso, giving you kind of a shelf butt? If it’s the latter, you’re what’s called a spoon shape. I’m built the same way (complete with short torso but I’m 5’3) but plus sized. If you google “spoon shape,” you’ll find the best way to dress your body.

      Spoon shaped bodies are essentially hourglass figures with a higher hip, so the hips jut out instead of curve gently out. Think Beyonce Knowles but less photoshopped.

      1. Anonsie*

        Shelf butt indeed! That’s me. I’ll see what I can find with that, though tbh I think this is like the 7th different term I’ve heard for my shape but it’s probably my least favorite :/ SEXY SPOONS

        1. voluptuousfire*

          Just think more bottom heavy hourglass figure. What works for an hourglass figure essentially works for a spoon shape.

    6. JMW*

      Hillary Clinton. Maybe not her color choices, but she’s found a good shape for her figure. And she has no problem with authority!

      1. Anonsie*

        *shudders* Oh man her whole suit game is exactly what I’m trying to avoid!! Or have her suits gotten better in recent years? All I remember is a lot of tapered pants that made her look cartoonishly misproportioned when she’s probably got a perfectly normal figure under there.

        1. JMW*

          Shes short-waisted and seriously pear-shaped. I don’t think she tapers her pants so much any more, and she goes for monochromatic to add height. Her color choices are bit Easter eggish though.

          1. Anonsie*

            I’ve seen a ton of pants suit rainbows made entirely of photos of her garden of suit colors.

            Actually, looking at her now, I had the sudden creeping horror that it’s not that my suits don’t fit well or aren’t the best style for me, it’s that that is just what I’m going to look like in a suit. Short and wide. It’s not like Clinton doesn’t have good taste (ok, suit colors aside) or resources to get whatever, so I kind of doubt I’m going work some magic she isn’t already working.

            But she does look more authoritative than me in the same thing! My work suits say “doctor’s secretary” not “secretary of state.” I wonder if it’s just the age or something else. Maybe I need less hair and larger pearls, I don’t know.

            1. Anonsie*

              Man I hate when people poo-poo on Clinton for her clothes, so I feel like kind of a wad here, but that’s just so the opposite of how I want to dress and look in my clothes. I would really like to not look like the Venus of Willendorf in wool crepe, which is definitely how I feel. Ugh.

            2. Ask a Manager* Post author

              It might be the fabrics — the fabrics she wears tend to read as matronly to me. I bet you could achieve a different look with different fabrics — silkier, maybe, or just … something else.

              I second the suggestion to make an appointment with a personal shopper at Nordstrom and see what they can do — it’s free to have them consult with you, and I bet you have options that you just haven’t thought about yet.

    7. catsAreCool*

      I can’t help with the clothing part, but to help to look like you know what you’re doing, if someone talks down to you, do your best to look friendly but slightly amused. If you can nicely say something about the experience you do have when you get a chance, that will help.

      If it helps, once people get to know you, they’re much more likely to think of you based on what they know about you – work ethic, experience, attitude – than on how you look.

    8. Kerr*

      I have similar fit issues. I highly recommend A-line skirts, if you can find them, knit shells as opposed to button-downs, and finding tops that end between the waist and the high hipline. V-necks are good; white shirts, not so much.

      Have you tried Macy’s? They carry an amazing Calvin Klein suit jacket that comes in petite sizes. Two buttons, curvy-fit-friendly, and it hits (me) higher on the hip than at my widest point, unlike most suit jackets I see around. Search for item # 654487 on their site. It comes in seasonal colors, too.

      They also carry the Jones New York petite line, which was carrying an A-line skirt the last time I looked.

  96. Boogles*

    Have any other managers received neutral or negative feedback from a leaving employee in an online exit interview? I’ve just received neutral responses to every question in the supervisor section of the exit interview. My manager and I supervised this employee jointly since she came on board in April. There’s been a lot of frusturation from me and other staff members that my position and my managers position have not been more seperated. Ultimately, it’s not clear wheather this employee was giving me the neutral review or my manager. My manager and I will be discussing this on Monday. What am I supposed to say?!

    1. AnonAnalyst*

      Can you maybe use the lack of clarity in the feedback as an opening to discuss the lack of role clarity/division of responsibilities? Since it sounds like this may be an issue beyond just the departing employee perhaps this gives you something more concrete to point as an example of a way the current setup is problematic to open the dialogue and expand to some of concerns/confusion from other staff members.

      Good luck with whatever approach you decide to take! When I was managing people I would have found that exit interview feedback really frustrating as well, so I can sympathize.

    2. AnotherHRPro*

      For the meeting, just be prepared to discuss the evaluation and the feedback provided. What do you think has merit, what do you want to work on. If you supervise other employees, I would recommend that you ask them for feedback. Either one on one, or have them as a group provide team feedback – what is working well, what would you like me to do that I’m not, what would you want to change.

    3. JMW*

      The purpose of an exit interview is to try to learn from it. Look for anything you can take away from it that might be helpful and then let it go.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      If her responses were neutral through the whole thing, it could be that she did not even understand which one of you she was evaluating. Or maybe she actually believed that the both of you were okay but not awesome. Conversely, maybe it is her wish to just put everything in a peaceful place and move on.

      Your survey is flawed if you can’t tell who is being evaluated and basically the results have to be tossed out. Neither one of you can claim the results- good, bad or neutral.

  97. JR*

    Hey all, what’s the best way to deal with a manager who won’t make a decision?

    I’ve put together a proposal for a project we need to do within the next three months. I presented my manager with what I consider to be three viable options, and the costs and pros and cons of each one. Her boss has asked me how the project is coming along, and I’ve been vague, but she still hasn’t chosen an option after almost a month. I don’t have the authority to just pick one because I can’t finance the project without her OK.

    I don’t want to be whiny and sound like I’m going behind her back, but the responsibility for getting this project done is going to fall on me and I’m already a month behind due to a lack of decision-making. This isn’t the first time this has happened. Is it appropriate to e-mail her again, asking for a decision, while copying her boss on the e-mail. Something like:

    “Hi Celeste,

    A month ago I sent you a proposal with three options for the Teapot Project, which, as you know, is due in two months. I’ve reminded you of this, but still you haven’t made a decision.

    I can’t proceed without a decision and I fear that waiting any longer will cause a delay in the project.”

    1. kozinskey*

      Oh man, this sounds really snarky. I doubt cc’ing her boss on this would make you look good. Maybe it would be better to press her in person first and mention that her boss has been asking you about your progress on the project? That way she won’t be blindsided if you do ultimately decide you need to get support from her boss on this.

      1. Anonsie*

        Yeah, the “as you know” bit is especially grating to me. I think the smarter way to ask this would be something like:

        “Hi Celeste,

        We still need your selection of a proposal for the Teapot Project to proceed with [whatever’s waiting] before the [date] deadline. Have you had a chance to look at them/do you have any concerns I could help with/are you leaning towards any one in particular/etc.”

        That last bit is going to vary based on what makes sense to say based on your own role, but anyway it’s less adversarial but still clear what you’re really asking for here.

    2. Boogles*

      If you’ve asked her repeatedly for a decision and she hasn’t give you one, I’d circle back to her boss and verbally let her know that. I’d say something like, “Hey, you asked not too long ago about project X and I wanted to give you an update that I’ve asked Celeste to pick one of the 3 options I presented to her a little over a month ago. I haven’t been able to get any traction from her. How would you like me to proceed?” If you haven’t directly asked Celeste which option she wants to go with and are assuming she’s just going to get back with you, I’d ask her asap.

      1. JR*

        Thanks. I’ve asked her and she always says “I’m still evaluating”–she’s one of those people that endlessly looks at possibilities and is afraid to make a decision because it might be the wrong one. She’s more of a technical person and was very good at her job, but in my company the only path to move up is via management so a lot of techies become “management” just so they don’t leave even though they’re not really experienced managers.

        1. fposte*

          Just to be clear–you’ve asked her if you can go forward with a specific plan you’re recommending, and she’s still balking? Then yeah, I don’t know of another thing you can do.

    3. fposte*

      Which one do you think should be chosen? Can you meet with her face to face? I’d meet with her to say “We’re running out of time to get whichever one we complete done, and I’d vote we go with a. Does that work for you? If you just sign here we can move forward and get it done.”

      1. JR*

        That’s a good idea and is exactly what I’m going to do. Do you think it sounds snarky, when asked by her boss, to say something like “I came up with a plan and Celeste agreed so we’re going to do x, y and z” so that her boss knows it was me who made the decision?

        1. fposte*

          That seems a bit too far to me. In some situations you could pull off “Celeste and I have agreed to move forward on plan a,” but you need to be very judicious about even that–it would fly just fine in my workplace and sound very jumped-up in others.

          Some of this depends on how much of the footwork is yours, too, but it’s pretty common for managers to draw on their staff’s footwork. If it requires file documentation, put your name in the headers :-).

    4. Jerry Vandesic*

      You need to explicitly spell out the impact of no decision. How will the schedule slip? Show her on the project plan. Your email is a step in the right direction (but does need some tweaking), but “fear that waiting any longer will cause a delay in the project” is much too vague. Say something like “a delay on selecting the vendor beyond January 21st will slip the project day for day and will increase the costs by $X/day.”

  98. Queen Anon*

    Review time is coming up and if this year is like previous years, they’ll want us to do a self-review with goals. I have one goal – leave this job. It’s not a bad job and it’s a good place to work (low pay aside), but I’ve been here over seven years, I’m no longer challenged, and I’m bored out of my skull. Promotion from my position isn’t possible in this company. It might not be a bad job, but I hate it. I didn’t use to and I know it’s time to leave – not just because I hate it, but because I’ve earned a professional degree recently. It’s not just time to leave here, it’s time to step up my job search and enter my new chosen profession. S0 – any ideas as to what I can put for personal goals when I don’t have any other than get out of Dodge and try not to be late to work and spend too much time on the Internet in the meantime? I haven’t had a problem with personal goals since they began adding them to the review but this year I’m feeling burned out and uninspired.

    1. HR Manager*

      Personal goal should be look for new opportunities internally, either a new project or a new position, to challenge my skills. You may or may not put effort into it, and you may or may not be able to find it even if you did try. But it’s honest. If you think you manager will not take too kindly to that, add “working with my manager..”

      1. Queen Anon*

        That’s actually the only idea I’ve had and I was blowing it off because – well, it’s not all that likely to happen and I’m feeling disinterested enough not to bother. Thanks for your comment; it helped me realize that it’s a good idea. I think that’s what I’ll go for.

  99. Anon for today*

    If anyone is still around – I’ve been chewing on this for a couple days. Trying to be vague since I know some of my employees read this. I’m in middle management in a public institution. My boss recently decided to make a full-time offer to one of my team members. There are a few other people with more seniority who want full-time… however, their performance reviews don’t justify it. People are very outspoken here, and I’m expecting some complaints. I know we’re doing the right thing, but I’m afraid my confidence will lag when I need to tell these employees why they weren’t chosen. We have constant one-on-ones, and the employees know what their performance issues are, so it shouldn’t be a big deal, but I still have trepidation when it comes to these conversations. In general, I think I need more confidence (just read The Confidence Code by Katty Kay and Claire Shipman… it was a great book) and I need to let complaints from employees about the schedule, what’s “fair” etc. stop keeping me up at night. So any tips would be appreciated. Thanks!

    1. soitgoes*

      Could you tailor your answers to the individuals as they ask them? “We needed someone who was good at so-and-so, and as mentioned in your last review, that’s the area where you struggle the most.” You could also be vague and say that the promoted employee has experience or educational qualifications that the complainers don’t. OR that she was always hired to do her new job, but logistical errors forced her into this department until her new position became available.

      1. Anon for today*

        I like the first answer. Very direct and straightforward, and it fits the situation. Thank you!!

    2. HR Manager*

      If it were possible, I would prefer to have an announcement that said something to the effect of Congrats to Mary Smith. Due to her hard work, strong performance, strong work ethic (substitute with whatever well-recognized qualities she has), Mary will be coming aboard on a full-time basis as of X date.

      That should be very clear why she was chosen. If others still want to gripe and complain, then you can address them individually.

      1. Anon for today*

        That’s an idea. My boss may have already made the announcement since I’m off today, but if not, I’ll see if she can tweak it. Thanks!

    3. LCL*

      1. the promotion: “Boss made the decision to promote X. I know you will give X your full support.” Nothing wrong with passing the buck when it’s the truth.
      2. the schedule: you may have to look at this a little closer. But you need some definitions. I have been told all of the following regarding what a fair schedule is: never having to work nightshift, never having to work swingshift, never having to work weekends, never having to work with a particular employee, never having to work holidays, having all leave requests granted, giving first priority to people with kids, giving first priority to people with grandkids, giving first priority to requests off that involve time spent with family, being able to work the same schedule all the time, being able to have time off for college, ad infinitum.
      Our solution has always been all requests are equal, then the scheduler works really hard to grant all requests. We have a seniority based selection for time off, and everything else is first come first served. However you do it, an employee committee should do the bulk of the work figuring out your plan. If you have a good plan and they are complaining anyway, say “sorry, that’s how our schedule works.” Make sure all employees know how the schedule works.

      1. Anon for today*

        Thank you! This is really helpful. I hear all that stuff regarding the schedule too. There is a long story behind it, and I’m currently working on making it better, but I like the idea of having an employee committee work on it too.

    4. AnotherHRPro*

      You need to be prepared to tell them what they need to be doing so be considered for opportunities like this.

  100. lachevious*

    I just found out that I have a second interview with a law-firm that I recently interviewed with. The job would basically be a lateral move for me as far as title, but from what I understand it would mean an increase in job duties (nothing particularly thrilling, but at least I’d be busier) and it is in a section of law that I have always enjoyed.

    The concerns I have are (1) leaving my current job after only 13 months, (2) losing my 401K (not vested yet), whether the culture would be a good fit for me and (3) if the potential bump in pay would be worth the change. If they low-ball me, as I expect they will, the difference in pay would be an increase of about 2 grand annually.

    What I am hoping to happen in the second interview is to get a better feel for the attorneys and the culture of the firm. I am not desperate to leave my current job, but I don’t see myself staying here for very long, especially after I am vested. I’m just not very challenged and I feel like I am losing my edge. This is not likely to change while I am at my current job.

    Have any of you gone through something like this? What did you do? Was it worth it? Thank you!

    1. JR*

      I’m pretty sure that, legally, any money you contribute to your own 401K is yours regardless of whether you stay with a company a day or 50 years–what you risk losing is the company contribution if you aren’t vested.

      You have to decide whether the new work justifies leaving and how much money you’d be losing. If I was a year or less from vesting, I’d probably stay but wouldn’t stay if it was more. But that’s just me.

      1. fposte*

        Yup on the 401k–you should be able to bring what you put in. So figure out what the match is in real dollars for the period of time, but I’m guessing it’s not a lot when looked at over a career duration–usually it’s a single-digit percent of your contributions, so maybe $500 or so.

      2. lachevious*

        Oh I should have clarified – yes I know I’ll get mine own contributions back – at least whatever is left after they take out the money I owe for the withdrawal I took out (eesh). Anyone know how that works? If I don’t have enough to cover it in my contributions to the plan would they just take it out of my last paycheck?

        1. De Minimis*

          I’m not 100% on this, but I think the withdrawal would be treated as a taxable distribution, unless you put it into an IRA or something similar within a certain timeframe….which I highly recommend, you don’t want to get hit with the various taxes and penalties.

          1. De Minimis*

            Oh wait, were you able to withdraw more than you had contributed? I guess each plan is different, most of the ones I’ve seen only let you borrow your own contributions, especially pre-vesting.

      3. lachevious*

        That’s a good way to look at it – I mean I’m only a year and a half from being vested (roughly)…
        I guess I’ll just wait and see what they offer and grill them for as much info as I can. Thank you both!

        1. AnotherHRPro*

          If it gets to the salary negotiation point, you need to take into consideration what you are leaving on the table (ie. your 401k). I’d request a sign-on bonus to make up for it.

  101. De Minimis*

    So annoyed with an ongoing problem at work. My department is the one that patients to go when they want to complain. We have three people here who are qualified to deal with complaints, two executive staff and a quality improvement officer. Unfortunately, the way our workplace is set up, people take off all the time or are having to attend meetings offsite. The norm of our workplace is usually to take off and things will either be handled by other people while you’re gone or they can wait till you return. I’d say in most cases, we usually just have one person here who can address patient complaints, and sometimes all three are gone [these of course are the days where we get call after call or angry people showing up in the office.]

    Also, my direct line at some time in the past may have been the line for the secretary, so I frequently get calls wanting to speak to the administrator, and sometimes they go into a long story of their medical issues before I can stop them. It is just difficult to deal with…I know our facility has a lot of ongoing issues and I’m sure most if not all the complaints have at least some degree of validity. I try to help when I can, but I’m limited to trying to contact the few people who are able to address concerns, and if those people aren’t around, there’s nothing I can do.

    We do have a secretary, but she is gone a lot of the time, she also has to work in other departments from time to time, so we often have no real administrative coverage as far as dealing with patient concerns. Just frustrating.

    1. JR*

      This sounds frustrating for the patients, as well, since they likely feel no one wants to take the time to deal with their complaints.

      1. De Minimis*

        It is, and I feel for them [parents and family rely on the same agency for their health care] but wish I could do more for them. The patient whose call motivated me to post this showed up in the office a while later and thankfully one of the staff was present to help address his concern.

        It’s a problem that exists throughout the organization, and although some efforts are made to correct it many are just cosmetic in nature [like coming up with vague performance metrics for things like wait times, but nothing to address the difficulty patients have in calling and making an appointment.] I’m just glad we are not one of the hospitals, their version of patient complaints are things like “My family member died in the ER waiting room waiting for someone to help them..”

  102. JAL*

    I have a severe back injury and it looks like I’m going to need surgery on it. If I do need the surgery, I’m going to have to quit my first professional job out of college because my FMLA does not kick in until September and I would need 2-3 months to fully recover from this . I am not waiting until September to get it if the doctor gives me the okay to go through with it.

    If I quit, I would be at the job for less than a year and it’s my only verifiable experience other than the volunteer work I did in college, plus there would be a huge gap in my employment. How would I go about telling this to an interviewer in the future?

    1. Zillah*

      I would be honest – say you had an injury and required surgery, which resolved it, but that you didn’t have the option to use FMLA. I don’t think that there’s anywhere near as much risk of encountering prejudice over an injury as opposed to a potentially chronic illness.

    2. Helka*

      That’s actually a very understandable thing to explain. You wouldn’t want to get into the nitty-gritty details, but telling an interviewer that you had to stop working for that time due to a medical issue that has since been resolved — that shouldn’t be a problem. Plus, 2-3 months isn’t a huge employment gap.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Have you spoken to your employer about this? While I wouldn’t expect to get paid during a recovery period like that (although some would offer short-term disability), maybe there’s a chance your employer will simply give you leave and hire a temp in the meantime? I’m guessing you already brought this up, but just in case you didn’t, it’s worth it to ask. I know that if I were out of commission for several months, my employer would want to keep me and would cover me while I’m out, even if they couldn’t/wouldn’t pay me during that time.

      1. AnotherHRPro*

        Yes, I would not assume you need to quit. FMLA is what is required but some companies provide more job projection than what is required. The reality is that it can take a few months to hire a replacement so if they can get by without doing so, they might go for it. Good luck and I hope the surgery goes well.

    4. fposte*

      “I had to have surgery for a health problem that required a couple of months of recuperation. It’s all fine now.”

      Job history wise, that’s a pretty legit reason for time off. And good luck! Diskectomies aren’t generally too bad, and earlier is better than later.

    5. Apollo Warbucks*

      Have you talked to your boss? FMLA might not be legally required, but some companies will be more accommodating, they might offer you unpaid leave Or have another solution.

      If you’re happy with the job and want to keep it speak up! You’ve nothing to loss and there might be a way for you to keep your job, and even if not you won’t be any worse off.

      If you do leave your job, you just explain you had an operation and needed to recuperate and that your old company couldn’t keep the job open for you, make sure to tell them that you’ve got it all cleared up and you dont expect any more problems.

      1. JAL*

        I reread the employee handbook. It says that I’ll have to quit and if I apply within 60 days again, they’ll let me reapply and I wouldn’t have to go through the training and introductory period. The thing about my job is, once the spring hits, they hire a lot of people through September ( I applied for this job 3 times and I got an interview on my 3rd attempt). If I get the surgery next month, there’s a chance I could come back to my job.

        On the other hand, I absolutely despise this job and the company’s policies and culture. It would be no big deal for me if I quit and tried looking for a new job. At least I’ll have some level of experience and plus, I’m taking the NYS civil service for the job I truly want in March (and that’s a huge waiting game if you score favorably).

        At this point, I’m just weighing all my options, and I’m not sure if the surgeon will even operate on me with my age and foot condition that caused this injury in the first place.

        1. fposte*

          Have they said they won’t at all? It sounds like you’ve been through conservative measures already. Your age might make you an even better candidate for less invasive approaches, too. If your coverage allows it, check with another surgeon or facility–there’s no reason for one to be the last word.

    6. soitgoes*

      There would be nothing wrong with saying, “I’m going to need major surgery soon, so I will be unable to work for 2-3 months. I was wondering if I could come back after I’ve recovered?” I wouldn’t go into this with any expectations (and obviously don’t expect to draw a paycheck for those months), but companies allow for maternity leaves of that length all the time, so I don’t think it would be out of line to ask.

    7. Marcy*

      Check your company’s leave policy. There may be something in there about an unpaid leave of absence. I have had several jobs where that was a possibility. It had to be approved first but your situation sounds like something that would be approved. You may not need to quit.

  103. Barbra*

    You guys, my boss is gross. We are a tiny firm, just him and myself as his assistant. I am heavily pregnant so on the upside I won’t have to deal with this much longer but in the meantime my senses are heightened. For example, to clean his glasses, he licks (with his tongue) each side of each lens then wipes with a paper towel he pulls from the garbage can. He eats popcorn or tortilla chips all day long and drops them on the floor and doesn’t pick them up. He eats microwaved pizza almost everyday for lunch and sometimes sucks on the pizza like a lollipop. He spills drinks/coffee and half-asses cleaning it. He rides his bike to work and in the middle of the day will go to the park to exercise. But he will return a hot sweaty drippy smelly mess and not even change his clothes. He also lets HIS NOSE RUN DOWN HIS FACE. Like he doesn’t notice/can’t feel snot running over his lip. He doesn’t wipe his nose, just lets it run. I’ve occasionally seen him wipe his nose on his shirtsleeve but he mostly just lets it run. As we are trying to have conversations. I’ve had many moments of excusing myself so as to not gag in his presence. And the time I was hit with several of his odors at once (including coffee which I can’t stand) I actually did throw up in the bathroom.

    There is probably nothing I can do about this and it is soon to be not my problem as I won’t be returning to work (at least here). But I pity the next person coming in – we are interviewing now. I NEED him to hire someone so I can leave without worry (he’s somewhat incompetent in many areas) but man I feel for the next person. Is there a way to screen for “must have strong stomach”?

    2. HR Manager*

      What the heck? That is disgusting! How has anyone who has ever interacted with him, internal or not, not noticed his smelly sweatiness or his personal grooming habits of a 3-yr old child? Does he have a manager? I can’t imagine a manager not caring about personal hygiene and habits like this in the office.

      1. Barbra*

        He does not have a manager, he’s a solo practitioner and has been for many years. In fact, he’s only had an assistant for the last couple of years – he was a true solo lawyer for 15 years.

        1. ThursdaysGeek*

          So did he get an assistant because his business picked up enough to need one? I’m trying to figure out what type of clients are this desperate.

    3. BadPlanning*

      Maybe you could do something somewhat gross in the interview (wipe your nose on your sleeve) and see if the interviewee flinches and or not.

      Only semi-kidding.

      Or will the boss be in the interview? If he does one of his unpleasant behaviors, watch the interviewee’s body language.

  104. voluptuousfire*

    Huh. I got an in person interview for a position I phone screened for today. It’s next Wednesday. I’m slightly surprised because I had just gotten up from a nap shortly before I phone screened and I think being refreshed and relaxed really helped. Haha. I applied for the job on a whim (it’s not outside my realm of experience but it uses a software I have a fair amount of experience with) and was kinda surprised they got back to me. It’s within my salary range (finally!) and it’s a better commute for me. It should be interesting.

  105. ism*

    Am I being cheated?

    I temped through a staffing agency for 8 months and the company finally hired me on as a regular employee this month. The work I’ve been doing is a mixture of shipping clerk, data entry/inventory transactions, and general administrative assistance in the front office of a shipping & manufacturing facility in a very rural midwestern area. While I was still a temp, I got a 5% raise based on my performance, a few months in. It’s still not much. I now make $10.50 an hour before taxes. Because of my geographic area, I understand that I can’t expect to be paid the mean/average salary for this kind of work.

    When my boss told me they’d decided to hire me on, there was no wage negotiation. She simply said “We’re going to keep paying you the rate you’ve been paid by the temp agency.” I was so stunned – I knew they wanted to hire me on, and was just waiting for the offer and the negotiation. I had done all my research and was prepared to negotiate a higher wage. But the way my boss phrased it took me totally by surprise and I just said “OK,” and signed all the paperwork.

    Here’s where I’m at right now.
    – I’ll be eligible for benefits like health, retirement, dental, vacation, and paid sick days, but I have to wait 90 days from my hire date. I don’t have those benefits right now.
    – I got so tired of waiting for them to hire me that I went ahead and signed up for Obamacare and now I have private health coverage that I pay out of pocket. It’s a pretty good deal. I spoke to the HR lady to get an idea of how my company’s health plan compares, and it’d cost me more than my Obamacare plan if I did choose company insurance. The HR lady did not indicate that me opting out of company insurance would be an opportunity to raise my pay, but then again, that wasn’t what I was there to specifically ask her at that time.
    – I have gotten a reputation as the “office Excel guru” and “computer expert.” I’m 34 and everyone else who works in my office is much older and much less comfortable with computers. We do a lot of things on paper that could more easily be done digitally and people are starting to come to me for help and ideas on how to digitize certain office procedures. Some of my plans are already in place.
    – In fact, the IT guy asked me for help on an Excel formula the other day. The Excel sheet he was working on just happened to be a document for paying the temp agency for the temp employees (which I just recently was). The formula he needed help with just happened to be a calculation of the premium we pay the agency on top of the hourly wage the employees get. It’s about 30% of the hourly rate. So, I basically just learned they’ve been paying the temp agency $13.65 an hour for me. Now that I’m a regular employee, they’re saving that 30% and I’m still getting the same pay I’ve been getting. What a deal! This information made me start to get really angry that I wasn’t offered a raise or even a pay negotiation.
    – My boss is starting to “loan me” to other departments and put me on projects unrelated to my job duties and description. That’s fine, because I intend to kick ass on those proejcts and build a case for myself when I decide to go directly open the question of a raise later this year. The thing is, they’ve put me on a federal regulatory compliance project. Suddenly I’m responsible for inventorying all the hazardous chemicals in the plant, sourcing safety data sheets in the midst of an international standards change for said documents, and making sure our database of chemicals is up to OSHA compliance for when an auditor comes around. The lead engineer at the plant was supposed to have this done by a deadline in 2012, but didn’t, and now it’s on my shoulders. I’m totally unqualified and inexperiencced on this, and I happen to know that what I’m doing is something a contractor would normally be chosen to do for MUCH more money. Again, what a deal for my comapny’s bottom line!
    – I get positive feedback from my boss all the time, and more and more senior people come to me for help or to delegate tasks to me. I have no reason to beleive they don’t value my work and my potential to grow with the company (a phrase my boss likes to throw around).

    I guess I just wanted to vent. But $10.50 an hour? After taxes, I’m only making about $8.20 an hour. It’s cheap to live here, and I’m single renting a cheap apartment, trying to save up to buy a car because apparently public transportation and walking to work are not possible in a town of 11,000 people and 12,000 cattle. I can live on this, but only barely. My manager already knows all this. And yet she made it seem pretty clear, pretty cut and dry, that the offer to hire me was NOT up for salary negotiation. I’m so pissed off that they’re getting so much value from me, and are paying LESS to have me than when I was temp. On top of that, every single other temp here is an unskilled laborer, packing boxes, loading trucks, etc. They’re paid the same as I am! I’ve been to college. I’ve managed offices. I’ve been an IT professional at the entry level in the past. I make shit happen, I get it done fast, or I get it done well, and often both.

    Did I do something wrong? How can I get paid what I’m worth?

    1. BRR*

      Well they might not be saving money, the benefits might cost the company well more than the ~$3 an hour per difference. The other temps are not paid the same as you, you are getting benefits.

      For your health insurance don’t only look at what it is costing you, look at what it covers. Not only if you’re healthy but in case of emergency.

      Everything else sounds like it’s a good case to ask for a raise at your next review or one year mark (assuming that not only are you doing this stuff but doing it well) or apply after a year to an internal posting. But it sounds like there is a set wage and you might be SOL. I don’t know about the town you’re in but the tiny Midwestern town my in-laws live in has high unemployment. The pay stinks everywhere unless you have a unique set of skills and if you don’t like it they can fill the position in less than a week if they wanted.

    2. HR Manager*

      You should not have said yes and signed on when they told you they would convert you. Even if they don’t bring up salary, you should always ask about pay and try to open the door to negotiation if you truly feel it’s warranted BEFORE committing to anything. Now that you have signed on, it’s odd to suddenly turn around and say I made a mistake.

      I would give is another month or two, and once you’ve proven your indispensable-ness with all this extra work and help you are providing, I would approach your manager and say, “I didn’t realize my job would require so many additional projects and tasks that were different from my temping assignment. I think I am doing a job that is at a different compensation level than what I was earning as a temp. Do you think there’s an opportunity for us to review the compensation for my role?” Your boss can say yes or no, but think about what no means for you. Do you walk away and try someplace else, or do you like this job enough to suck it up for longer and wait until review time? It sounds to me like you are underpaid.

    3. fposte*

      Wow, sounds like a lot is going on there that you’re thinking about. I don’t know about going rates, but from the process you describe, I wouldn’t say you got cheated, though; you just didn’t negotiate. Employers really don’t make a point of leaving you an opening to negotiate, because it’s not advantageous to them; if you want to negotiate, it’s up to you to speak up when they say “We’re taking you on at $10.50” and say “I’d actually hoped for $12, based on market rates; is there room for movement on that?”

      I don’t think you can go back and negotiate more for the job you just accepted at $10.50 unless this all just happened, like, yesterday, and I don’t think you can be too pissed off at them for making an offer to you that you accepted (maybe you’re somewhat annoyed at yourself, too?). The earliest I’d check in on a raise is the six-month date, and I’d check cultural pulse on that first; otherwise a year or a big new project would be the next stop.

      Hope the goods are still good enough to make it worthwhile.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Yes — this is a really crucial point. If you wait for an explicit opening like “does this salary work for you?” you will probably never get it. You need to be prepared to raise it on your own, preferably right after the employer has mentioned money.

    4. Anie*

      You’re certainly not getting paid what you’re worth, but your only real option–as I see it–would be to deal or find a new job.

      I’m surprised the company was paying the temp agency such a small difference. Normally I see a $5 to $8 dollar difference. The reason they don’t pay that higher amount once you’re hired on is because the insurance and sick time is supposed to count as a benefit to fill that gap, as you certainly didn’t get those as a temp.

      Don’t expect to get a higher rate of pay if you turn down the insurance package. I’ve never heard of a company doing that. (Not that it wouldn’t be nice and kinda makes sense.)

      I’ll bet you anything that performance raise you got from the temp was partially because you’d stayed on so long without incident. Agencies often find it hard to get consistent, reliable help, so they wanted you to keep with them. You wouldn’t have gotten another one though and you might get a raise through your new company at some point.

      It sucks, but from my experience in the midwest, a ton of people strive to make 10~. It seems to be a normal admin/receptionist wage. Good luck working your way up. :(

      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        I get $100 extra a month by not being on my company’s insurance. But that’s a clear option provided. I think it costs my spouse about $100 to have me on his, so it’s a wash.

    5. Apollo Warbucks*

      Like BRR says they might not be saving much money, employees cost money in terms of overheads.

      In the mean time you’re getting some some great expirance and exposure to a number of different departments and projects, that’s amazing for your development and will strengthen your CV when you decide to move on, what you are currently doing will be worth so much to you when you come to negotiate your next salary.

    6. MT*

      I hate to say this, but that is what most companies pay for that type of position, i think $13 would be the top end of that spectrum. So 10.50 isn’t far off.

    7. MT*

      There is a difference between getting paid for what you are worth, and getting paid for what the job is worth. The employer found someone though a temp company who was willing and able to do the job for $10.50, that is what primarily sets what the job is worth. As someone who works and runs a plant type setting in the midwest, though near a major city with a decent cost of living. The clerks we employ are right around that hourly wage.

    8. Graciosa*

      There’s no point in getting upset with the employer – they made you an offer, and you accepted it. The only person to be annoyed with is yourself, and trying to displace that emotion onto your employer doesn’t change that. Dwelling on your anger is not likely to help the situation. This kind of thinking can really poison your attitude on the job, and people will notice.

      If this ever comes up again, a response along the lines of “Thank you for the offer – I’ve really enjoyed my time here at CheapoEmployer. I’d like some time to think it over. Can I get back to you on Tuesday?” will buy you time to consider. Then you can evaluate the offer and your response without the pressure of someone standing there waiting for an answer. You’re probably better off not working for anyone who won’t give you at least a little time to consider an employment offer.

      Asking for a raise before the one year mark (or regular performance review if it’s a little earlier) is going to look a little premature. When you do ask for a raise, make sure to focus on your contributions to the business, your performance above and beyond, and your market value at that time. Do not approach this antagonistically, or with an attitude that you expect them to make up for offering you an initial rate of pay that you regret accepting. It is completely fair to ask for the market value of the job you perform – but you need to be careful that you are not expecting to be paid for qualifications not related to the requirements of the job.

      To explain this a bit better, I could hire a doctor to stack boxes in a warehouse – but I’m going to pay him what I would pay for a warehouse worker. Would I put him on the emergency response team? Of course. But if he came to me and said, “I’m a doctor, and I expect you to pay me what I’m worth,” my response would be that I need someone to stack boxes and will pay warehouse wages. If you want to be paid as a doctor, get a job as a doctor.

      Or in your case, an IT professional.

      I realize that was probably a bit blunt, but it is meant to be constructive in the long run (which means facing reality now). If you want to find a better paying job, I’m all for it – it’s a much healthier and more professional response than dwelling on your perceived sense of injustice.

      Good luck.

      1. Whippers*

        That’s a bit of a false analogy there with regard to hiring the doctor to stock boxes. The issue is that the OP is actually doing work at a higher level and getting paid at a lower level. With your doctor, he would be doing work at a lower level and getting paid at a higher level. So, it’s really not the same thing at all.

        1. Graciosa*

          If he works on the emergency team where his medical skills can be put to use, he would be doing higher level work – however, you’re right that this is not the core of the original job which was basically my point.

          Companies do take advantage of additional employee skills fairly regularly, and it’s normal and sometimes beneficial for career growth. Proving you can do additional work can be a good thing- as long as it doesn’t turn into a situation where you’re doing a completely different job full time for the same compensation.

          The OP is answering some questions about Excel and doing some additional project work – but I haven’t heard yet that she has been moved over to the IT support team, which would be a core job change. At this point, it sounds like service on the emergency response team (to go back to my analogy) rather than being asked to open up a full time medical clinic for warehouse wages .

          1. Graciosa*

            To be clear, every place I’ve worked emergency response team members performed regular jobs unless there was an emergency (kind of like being on call while at work) or they were participating in occasional training – perhaps that’s the source of some of the confusion, as I probably didn’t make it clear enough to people with different experiences that this was an add-on responsibility. Until needed for the emergency team, the doctor is still stacking boxes.

    9. Jerry Vandesic*

      “How can I get paid what I’m worth?”

      Start looking for another job. Since you have a job already you aren’t desperate, which makes the job search much less stressful. A job search will do two things: 1) it will give you a better understanding about whether your current job is paying a reasonable wage, and 2) it might turn into a new job that will pay more. Win/Win. When you find a better job, take it (don’t let your current employer provide a counter offer).

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        I don’t think she should start looking for another job. They didn’t screw her over (she accepted the pay without negotiating) and it sounds like she’s positioned to get really great experience at this one, which can be hard to find — and which she can parlay into a better job if this one doesn’t increase her pay at the next appropriate time to raise it (which would be in a year).

        Also, on the 30% premium to the temp agency, that’s very normal. They’re paying the agency for the advantage of using temps (which are many — like being able to say “no, send me someone else” or “we’re wrapping up the project today and won’t need her anymore, plus recruiting costs, etc.). Temp agencies always receive a premium like this, if not higher. They’re paying it not for your work, but for all of these other advantages — that’s why they used a temp agency in the first place.

  106. loxthebox*

    My cube neighbor has taken to brushing his teeth at his desk. Every. Day. And usually multiple times a day. Like what?? Why? And he just keeps the toothbrush in his desk drawer, doesn’t rinse it or anything, and I am just so grossed out. It’s not even just a quick freshen up either, it takes him about ten excruciating minutes to complete this process. *shudder*

      1. loxthebox*

        I know I should say something, but he’s always wearing headphones when he does it and I’m too grossed out to interrupt… Plus we’re supposed to be reorganizing the floor some time next week and then it’d be someone else’s problem.

        Oy… I might just leave an anonymous note on his desk or something.

      1. fposte*

        Longterm this would bother me more, because that was temporary and sometimes barfing happens. This is planned, and I’m with BRR; I’d ask him to relocate that foolishness.

    3. BadPlanning*

      Is he doing Invisilign braces (basically plastic retainers) and eating several times a day? Even so, brush in the restroom!

      I think one can actually overbrush. Maybe leave him a passive aggressive dental pamphlet about brushing the enamel off his teeth… (okay, this doesn’t help the brushing in the cube part)

    4. NoTurnover*

      One of my coworkers flosses at his desk (open plan office, no hand washing before or after). When asked to stop, he said he didn’t see a problem.

  107. EG*

    I need advice on how to stay focused and productive when I just don’t feel like it. Personal life is slightly stressful lately (first mortgage pending and husband’s panic attack issues), and work piles up on Mondays and just never seems to let up all week. I try to pick a project or two that I want to see noticeable progress or completion with a deadline, but it’s really hard to concentrate on the task at hand. My job is also a bit of a catch-all for random questions from employees and other departments, as I’ve been here long enough to know the answer faster than most can find it elsewhere (I’m trying to redirect people elsewhere if feasible, rather than spend more than a couple of minutes on a request that isn’t really in my “realm” of job duties at present).

    1. BRR*

      I don’t know if this will help but I try and keep some low priority tasks pending so that when I need to do something different I have something available.

    2. The Other Dawn*

      I wish I had some advice, but I’m having the same problem right now.

      We rented out our old house in August and we already have to evict so we’re carrying two mortgages. I’m really stressed and distracted because I’m so worried about money and I’m having to deal with the tenant, calling a lawyer friend for advice, calling a state marshal to serve papers and all that during work hours. It’s making me very unfocused at work. What makes it worse is that I’m new at my job and I’m a manager, so I’m not dealing with things the way I normally would.

      I hope things get better for you.

  108. voluptuousfire*

    One thing I’m curious about is what level of questions do you ask when you have a phone screen with a potential employer? Do you keep it on a more general level if you’re speaking with a recruiter? I’m curious because I try to keep the questions fairly general since I’m usually speaking to a recruiter first and they may be a great resource for the generalities of the role vs. specifics.

    1. AnotherHRPro*

      Recruiters are a great source for learning about the employer’s culture, org structure, etc. They about the skills and experience for qualified candidates, but generally can’t speak to the day-to-day responsibilities. Use the opportunity to learn as much about the company as you can.

  109. Lil*

    Small moan, I guess.

    As a part of a development programme, a few months ago I was asked to think of ideas to help the business I work for grow. I had (what I thought was) a pretty good idea to simplify a process and increase revenue but the person in charge of the development programme (a senior trainer who has lots of experience in developing people but not much experience in the industry I work in) was unconvinced it was an area that could be improved or that the information that would be needed in order to justify it would be available. So I abandoned the project and have been working on something else (which is going really well, so no complaints there).

    Today, a colleague from a different department came to visit me. He said that a very senior manager (unconnected to the development programme I’m on) had approached him and asked him to look into the issue and try to come up with a solution – he came to me to talk over his thoughts because he saw it as my area of expertise. I gave as much information as I could and sent this colleague all the preliminary work I’d done for my abandoned project so that he could build on that for his work.

    I suppose I’m just annoyed that something I did a lot of work for but then had to ditch is now being done by someone whose first port of call on this subject is me. There is a very selfish, childish part of me that’s saying, “but that’s my work”. I know I’m just going to have to let it go.

    1. Steve G*

      I think your feelings are validated, a similar story is what made the movie Working Girl so popular, so many people can relate to their work being stolen and/or taken over by someone else who is then going to take the credit. Hopefully your input will somehow get your name and thus credit stamped on this project…

  110. Rebecca*

    I think this was touched on a few places above – but I need to ask – has anyone every gotten more vacation time in lieu of a raise? I’ve been told flat out I won’t receive any increases, regardless of how much additional work I’m assigned, how well I do it, etc. So basically, I’m stuck at my current pay level until I retire or quit. Sadly, there aren’t a lot of decent paying jobs here, so it’s not like I can just quit and go get a better paying job or one with more opportunities. Ideally, if I can’t get an increase, I’d like to add more paid vacation days and/or be able to work from home several days per month. If you’ve been successful, how did you do it?

    1. Treena Kravm*

      My husband negotiated for more vacation and a smaller raise in lieu of his normal raise this year. He just asked if it was possible during his review, and they wanted to know how much more he wanted. He said 1-2 weeks and that was that. He still hasn’t heard the final decision, but they’ve said they’re going to do it (just need the details ironed out).

      I would just ask at your next performance review. “I understand that I’m not eligible for raises, but I was wondering if it would be possible to discuss an increase to my vacation time.”

  111. HR Manager*

    Why not ask? Assuming you’re still a good (or maybe even great) performer that they want to keep around, talk to your manager about this. Let him know that while you’re happy with your job, the prospect of no increase ever (and subsequently earning less each year due to inflation costs) isn’t motivating. Is there anything in lieu of an increase that would be considered? For example, more flexibility to work from home, vacation time, etc. Worst case scenario is say no.

    I’ll be honest that on one occasion I’ve come across where a great employee in a deeply technical role maxed out on comp, this is what we brought to him. We wanted to make sure to retain him because his expertise would be virtually irreplaceable. This is not something that happens often; he’s the only case in my many, many years of HR where we did that proactively and asked him to present scenarios to us where we could make his work/life easier. Didn’t mean he got everything, but it was helpful to know what motivated him.

  112. stellanor*

    I’ve been asked to write a peer review for a peer who I feel is doing *extremely* poorly. I actually can’t think of a single point where we’ve worked together that I feel they did a good job. They’re a bad fit for our company, they lack necessary skills and, most importantly, they seem incapable of learning those skills (or if they are capable they sure haven’t done it so far, despite everyone’s best efforts to support them in acquiring them). In fact, most of my interactions with them have been them handing off tasks to me after they horribly broke them and leaving them for me to fix.

    How do I write constructive feedback for someone I think it was a mistake to hire, and who seems to be totally wrong for their job?

    1. HR Manager*

      Write what you wrote here, but add specifics and examples., and you don’t need to include that the person was a bad hire (let the manager get there). What skills did you expect, but did not see? When did you try to teach him something, but it didn’t work out? When you say broke, what was the end result? You don’t have to try to guess why or what the person did wrong, just say what the specific experience was and what behaviors you may have seen or not seen. Let the manager go from there and focus on the advice part.

      1. fposte*

        This is really good. I’d also suggest that you avoid the laundry list approach and focus on two or three main areas with examples–soitgoes has some good categories suggested below.

    2. soitgoes*

      You could talk about “time management skills,” “problem solving abilities,” and “culture fit.” Those are pleasant ways of indicating that someone isn’t pulling their weight. You could also mention this coworker’s presumed assumption that everything is a group project. That would let your higher-ups know that this person is asking other people to do his work.

      1. Graciosa*

        I like the focus on examples – the more objective and the more specific the better – but I’m a little leery of “culture fit” if used as a label. This has a history of being used inappropriately (gee, that person of a different race / gender / ethnic background is great, but just not a good culture fit for our organization). If you’re going to go in that direction, it really needs a good, non-discriminatory explanation and it is often easier to leave it out.

        I also caution against imputing thoughts or motivation to anyone else. “Jane has handed over all of her teapot designs to me before finishing the spout specifications and told me she expected me to complete them” is objective and clear. “Jane presumes all work is a group project” is a little hard to back up – we don’t know what’s going on inside her head, but I’d rather not give her an opportunity to derail a discussion of a real behavioral problem by claiming to have been misunderstood.

        1. stellanor*

          The “culture fit” issue is basically that she expects our company to work differently than it does because that’s how her last employer worked, and uses its failure to work as she expects as an excuse when stuff goes wrong. This company, and my team in particular, requires a lot of learning as you go and being adaptable when things don’t go as planned or break spectacularly. She expected to be formally trained on everything and regularly blames grievous errors on a lack of training (despite receiving more training than anyone else on the team), and tends to panic when things don’t go to plan.

          I don’t think it’s “Jane presumes all work is a group project” so much as “When Jane encounters a problem she doesn’t know how to solve, rather than asking someone to teach her how to solve that problem she asks someone to do it for her. When people attempt to teach Jane to fix the problem herself she is unwilling or unable to learn.”

      2. stellanor*

        Actually now that you say that, her time management skills are perfectly fine! Which is good to realize because I can’t think of anything else she did very well.

        She’s trying to pull her weight, I think, but she’s overwhelmed and doesn’t have the skills, so when the going gets tough she gets blamey. If I hear her complain about how she “wasn’t trained” on something I might scream — she WAS trained more than anyone else on our team. The rest of us had to teach ourselves and learn as we went.

    3. AnotherHRPro*

      Share specific examples that focus on the biggest performance issues (no more than 2-3). Include what they have done well or are good at. Everyone, absolutely everyone, has redeeming values. You want to include those so that your feedback shows that you can recognize their positive traits and that this isn’t just a personality clash.

      Remember, by providing feedback you are actually helping the person you are sharing it with.

  113. Amy*

    I’m probably too late but if anyones still reading, thoughts on this…

    A manager in another department was annoyed at something he thought I hadn’t done (it turns out there was a valid reason why I hadn’t but he didn’t even bother to check with me first before complaining).

    This manager emailed not only my manager the complaint but also the two other managers in our team. He didn’t cc me in but I got a copy of the email from my manager. In the email he said the reason why he emailed all managers was because he didn’t know who my manager was and could the relevant manager sort the complaint out. Seriously we have an up to date intranet which he could of checked (it lists everyones manager) before emailing everyone and making me look bad!

    Am I right to be annoyed?

    1. Sarah Nicole*

      Definitely. I would be very annoyed even if I had made a mistake and this is how he handled it. Just address it with your manager and make sure she understands that you were operating the way you should be. He will just look like an ass.

    2. fposte*

      Yes, but I’d eyeroll and let it go. Most people who got the message eyerolled too. You got to be totally in the right, so you won :-).

    3. Zillah*

      I can understand being annoyed, but I’d let it go. I’m not convinced you’re the one who came off looking bad here – he didn’t check who your manager was even though it was apparently easy for him to do so, which means that he bothered two extra people who probably had better things to do with their time, and if I was one of those extra managers, I’d think it was a little weird to assume someone had done something wrong without ever speaking to their direct manager.

    5. AnotherHRPro*

      Like others have said, yes you are right to be annoyed. But he damaged his own credibility by acting like a horses a$$. Make sure your manager understands what really happened and let it go.

  114. voluptuousfire*

    Just a general musing inspired by Saleslady above: for the hiring managers and recruiters who frequent this blog, do you really have trouble finding good candidates for positions you’re hiring for? I’m curious because I’ve seen jobs reposted 4 or 5 times over several months and they just seem to keep popping up. I understand it could be due to more than one opening for a role, someone initially hired and they didn’t work out, high turnover, etc.

    I’ve read articles in the past few years about employers complaining about the lack of skilled workers in this economy, even when we had a 7%+ unemployment rate and jobs staying open for months on end because they can’t find qualified people. On the other hand, I’m now reading that now that we’re at a 5 point something percent unemployment rate in the US and hiring is the most robust it’s been since the late 90’s and it’s starting to swing back into a buyer’s market, etc. It’s hard to consolidate the two, especially when speaking to people who have been unemployed for a bit and can’t seem to catch a break.

    Thoughts?

    1. AnotherHRPro*

      From what I’ve seen, there is frequently a miss-match in candidate qualifications and job requirements.

    2. Marcy*

      I have a terrible time finding people who actually meet the requirements listed in the ad (nothing abnormal- just needs a degree in the field or something related to that field or equivalent work experience in the field). I get a lot of people with no degree and completely different experience. The ones who qualify want more money than what is in the hiring range, which is printed in the ad.

    3. LAI*

      Agreed, it is a mis-match. I’ve been involved in searches where we received hundreds of applications and the number who were worth interviewing would be in the single digits. I definitely think it is partially due to lack of discrimination on the part of the applicants; people seem to just be applying for anything.

      But I think this is also partially because the standards required for many jobs have been increasing. 10 years ago, my office was hiring for an entry-level position and had many well-qualified applicants right out of college; we couldn’t even interview all the ones we liked. Since then, due to budget cuts in public higher education, we haven’t had a single entry-level position. We can’t grow and create new roles, we can only replace the ones when people retire and leave, and so then we are looking for a higher caliber professional to replace them and a much smaller number of people will be qualified.

  115. Being Fat*

    Question – would you hire an overweight employee for a non-active role, but one that sets and example for other employees, within an recreational organization where visitors do mostly physically active and environment related activities? Would you be concerned about fit or health, or would it not factor in if they had the experience required to perform the job?

    1. Celeste*

      Is the person fit and healthy enough to do the job? You say non-active, but you also say set an example in a recreational venue. That confuses me.

      1. Being Fat*

        Meaning, they wouldn’t have to participate in the activities but would be involved in telling the staff who do how to perform their jobs, plus evaluating job functions in order to change or improve things.

    2. Zillah*

      It seems like your worry here is that overweight people are less likely to be physically active or environment-related activities and therefore set a bad example. I don’t think it’s a problem, though – it’s highly, highly unlikely that any visitor is going to see an employee who’s overweight and be less inspired to participate in activities, nor do I think that seeing someone thin is going to inspire people to participate more. In fact, seeing a wider range of body types among the staff could make many visitors feel more accepted and welcome than if all your staff are size 4; there’s certainly some correlation between weight and health, but it isn’t as strong as many people think, and there are plenty of heavier people who also enjoy physical activity. I think you’d be doing both applicants and yourself a major disservice by discriminating based on weight,

      1. Being Fat*

        Thank you for this! It’s a really excellent way to look at it and I should be thinking like this. Also, I commented below, but I was the fat person in this question, not an employer thinking about not hiring someone because they are overweight.

      2. ThursdaysGeek*

        Right. My doctor may say I’m obese, but I’m healthy and active. Healthier and more active than some thin people I know. There are a lot of us who eat properly, exercise regularly, are healthy, and just also happen to be overweight. Not only is the correlation between weight and health not as strong as some people think, the correlation between weight and calories isn’t as simple as many people think.

        1. Being Fat*

          Agreed. People have some really messed up and horribly misinformed beliefs about obese people. In my case, I have a medical condition. I eat pretty healthy, and exercise daily. But employers don’t know that kind of thing and I’ve heard enough fat discrimination in my life to feel nervous about it when I’m going for interviews.

      3. QualityControlFreak*

        Absolutely right! I’m that size 4. My spouse is overweight. We’re both highly active, outdoorsy types. I think that’s a great example to set!

    3. jhhj*

      Do you want to show visitors that your place is welcoming to people who aren’t all physically fit? That they can come and not be shamed for being fat because, hey, there are fat employees too?

    4. Being Fat*

      To be clear, I am the fat person applying for the job in this scenario. I would never, ever discriminate against someone for weight (or for many other things). But I worry about my weight influencing employers, especially for a job that is somewhat activity and health related.

  116. KylieM*

    I work for a career coaching and staffing company. We are doing a workshop soon about mentorship in the workplace. Does anyone have any good ideas for materials on that subject? Any book recommendations? Also, any thoughts on how an employee can learn to be a good mentee in their job? Or reversely, how an employer can be a good mentor to their employees?

  117. AnotherAlison*

    I work next to someone who seems to think this is a 9-5 job. (okay, 7:30 to 4:30, which morphs into 7:45 to 4:15). It is not. I know I won’t say anything, so I’m just complaining to complain here. I know others who have the ear of our manager see what’s going on and work output isn’t great either, but grrr, some peoples kids! The guy told me this is his third job this year, and I wanted to say, hey, the common thread here is you. (The first job of the three was also a short tenure, so it’s not like he worked somewhere 5 yrs, had a fill-in job, and then started here.) I know things have a way of working out, but in the interim, it’s painful.

  118. Violet Rose*

    Hey all – this is my first post; I’m throwing this out there as it seemed like a good “crowdsourcing” question, and AAM attracts a fantastic and knowledgeable readership :)

    My “core” working hours constitute 9 hours a day, from 9:30 to 6:30, and office culture is that everyone takes a lunch break of roughly 30 minutes. I usually try to be in 5-10 minutes early, and I usually don’t START packing up until 6:30, so unless I have a vacation day, 45 hours a week is the minimum I will spend in an office building. I thought I’d be OK with the “long” days when I took the job, and I know there are a number of commenters who would think nothing of putting in way more time than that, but I hate it. HAAAATE. It’s a very brain-focused position, and I’m processing a lot of information and learning a lot of new skills in a relatively short period of time. My manager has told me multiple times that I produce good work, but for the last hour or two of day I’m so worn-out and braindead I resent being made to stay that late. It doesn’t help that this city shuts down early, so I can’t even return library books during the week. (I kid you not, the book drop is BOLTED SHUT after hours. I just… why even have a return slot if it’s only open an hour before the library itself???)

    The position is salaried, not hourly, so I think I have reasonable grounds to ask if my work hours could be reduced. My manager has said before that I produce good work; unfortunately, his boss is a bit of a traditionalist, and likes to see people in the office (whether or not this actually results in more getting done). I honestly think I could produce the same output of work in 35 hours a week, but honestly, even 40 hours of office-building time would be an improvement, and I’m happy to take shorter lunches to help offset the difference slightly. Has anyone successfully managed this kind of arrangement, and if so, how did you pitch it to your higher-ups?

    1. PuppyPetter*

      As a random reply on the book drop thing – yes, it’s annoying that it is locked after hours but I also know that too many times people use the drop for things other than “library materials”. Trash, clothes, junk…once we even found a cat in ours.

      1. Violet Rose*

        A CAT? 0_0

        Ah, that does clarify the book drop policy a bit – relatively few people would wander through a retail area at 8 a.m. with non-book items to drop off, compared to the herds of students who meander drunkenly through on their way to clubs all week-end. Sadly, I missed the actual opening hours of the library last week-end so no new books for me :(

        1. Cruciatus*

          While I agree that a cat through a book drop is terrible, it is the reason for the non-fiction book “Dewey: The Small-Town Library Cat Who Touched the World.” (Note: good book, but tissues needed).

    2. Kara Ayako*

      If you’re salaried, it’s typically more about having completed everything you need to have done and less about how long you’re sitting at your desk. I’m salaried: on some days, I leave at 5pm; on others, I’m working past 9pm. The only thing that counts is getting my work done (and done well) by the right deadlines.

      That said, it sounds like there’s something else going on here: maybe an agreement when you started that you’d stay until 6:30 or a lot of pressure from company culture.

      I’d also think about the root of the problem. 45 hours isn’t long, in the grand scheme of things (I believe our company bases salaries on the assumption that you work approximately that amount per week), but it sounds really draining for this particular job. As a salaried employee, you should be able to take breaks (walk around the building, grab a snack, take a personal call away from your desk) that might help to break up the monotony. If I have errands to run, I usually do them over lunch then bring something back to my desk to eat. Anything to prevent sitting at a desk for long stretches of time.

      If it’s mainly about things being closed, maybe you could ask to change your hours from 8am to 5pm. That would allow you to still have time for errands and activities after work. (And for me, there’s something psychologically draining about leaving the office when it’s dark outside.)

      If all that fails, maybe it’s the work you’re not very interested in, and it might help to find something you think is more fulfilling.

    3. LAI*

      If your working hours are 9:30-6:30, I assume that schedule was originally set up with the intent of allowing 1 hour lunches. It sounds like maybe things have just evolved in your office so that people are only taking 30 minutes. I would suggest going to your boss and asking if you can officially change your schedule to be 9:30-6:00 with a 30 minute lunch. Alternatively, if the problem is more that you get brain-dead late in the day, you might try asking if you can work 8:30-5:30 instead.

      1. StudentA*

        I agree with LAI. 9-hour days usually mean a 1-hour lunch. I’ve always found it ridiculous when employers cap lunches to 30 minutes, even unofficially. That leaves no time to eat and run an errand or make a personal call. In fact, I hate 9 hour days all around. Unless someone is single with no kids and no life outside of work, it is a resentment-building situation. Have the talk with your boss. Maybe your company will see it’s not just you. I am sure you have other colleagues who feel the same way.

    4. catsAreCool*

      Can you do something at the end of the day like write up notes about what you’ve learned or organize notes or find something else that is going to be useful but that you don’t need full brainpower to do?

    5. voluptuousfire*

      I relate completely. Last job was exactly like that: 9-6, 40 minutes or less lunch breaks, brain fried by 6 but had to spend another hour or so catching up on emails (former role was very phone heavy and didn’t necessarily allow for efficient multi-tasking). Just a fist bump of solidarity. *bump*

  119. Spray Paint Problems*

    My office hired a graffiti artist to spray paint walls throughout our open concept office. It hasn’t gone over well–I have my own opinion about the paintings, but my main issue is the smell. We are in a high rise and none of the windows open, and I have been getting terrible headaches and nausea. Others are feeling the same way. My office has set up fans, but it’s not helping. Is there anything we can do? Is it reasonable for us to ask our company to test the air?

    1. fposte*

      Wow, that strikes me as a dumb idea on their part. How long ago was the painting? If it’s just within a few days, I’d think it’ll settle down soon as the volatile compounds dissipate. I’m not sure what the testing would be in aid of–is there something specific you’d like to test for that wouldn’t be on the spray paint label?

      1. Sarah Nicole*

        Yikes, dumb idea for sure! They had to know this would be difficult for at least some people in the office. But I agree with fposte, not sure what testing the air would reveal other than there are irritants. Your management should be paying attention to the fact that several people in the office are experiencing these symptoms. I’d start there and ask your management team what the plan is for getting rid of the issue rather than just pushing all the bad air around an office with fans (since your windows don’t open, there’s no way to ventilate, I’m guessing).

    2. Anonsie*

      The heck? You’re not supposed to use any paint while people are trying to use the space, let alone spray paint! Testing the air isn’t necessary but saying you have to be moved until it’s aired out certainly is.

  120. The Other Dawn*

    I’m so excited: I’m going on my first business trip at my new job! It’s three nights in September and it’s in Huntington Beach, CA (I’m in New England). Only once in my whole career have I gone on a business trip. And it was just one night in the next state.

    Obviously when I told my family I had lots of volunteers to go with me as my “personal assistant.” That got me thinking about various AAM posts I’ve read about bringing spouses and such on business trips. I wanted very badly to bring my husband, but felt funny about asking my boss since I’ve only been there for about 7 weeks. So when I went to his office to get the company credit card I joked how I had a lot of volunteers to go, thinking maybe I could get a feel for the company norm and his feelings on it. He said if I want to bring someone that’s fine since the room is the same price. My husband would have to pay for his flight and to make sure that we pay separately for our meals so I can get reimbursement for mine. Awesome!

    So, I wonder what hubby will do for three days? By himself. On the beach. In California. If I know him, he will be checking out…classic cars.

  121. GOG11*

    I am a volunteer for a local conflict management organization and I just got the call that another mediator and I will be mediating the terms of a severance package between an organization and its employee. We’ve mediated cases involving financial contracts before, but this will be our first employer/employee case and I’m very excited to be involved and to be able to help them find a mutually agreeable solution. And now I have an excuse to scour the AAM archives, to boot :)

    1. StudentA*

      That sounds like a really cool volunteer gig and definitely something that would make you stand out as a candidate in just about any industry. It is certainly a testament to your good judgment and general soft skills.

      1. GOG11*

        My co-mediator actually has really good soft skills while I’ve got the analytical/strategic/model-based skills down pat. We get paired together often for this reason. Watching her work has helped me pick up on social cues better and I hope more of her stellar interpersonal skills will rub off on me as we go.

  122. TX Anon*

    Anyone have any advice for an admin trying to switch from the utilities industry (electric/gas distribution) to the oil & gas industry, specifically pipeline?

    1. StudentA*

      Well, they are not unrelated. It’s not like you are moving from the fashion industry to the legal industry. So it sounds like you are in a good place, and that you would be a desirable candidate based on your current industry. I would keep up with the latest news in the oil and gas industry, so you can sound well-informed in interviews. Be confident in your qualifications and present them in interviews as within a sister industry. Sorry I don’t have specific tips about moving into your desired industry.

  123. How to underpromise/overdeliver*

    I’m late but I hope folks are still reading this. I’m trying to figure out how to manage people’s expectations. I’m in IT, and I’ll often get requests from non-technical users who only know the end result, but not the difficulty or time required. I don’t want to turnaround on those right away because it creates unrealistic expectations (e.g. I have other tasks/it’s low priority/there bottlenecks in the process that I can’t control). But sometimes users will ask for an update and the update is just “it’s in my to-do list, I haven’t gotten to it yet”, or “some other bottleneck is in my way”. I don’t know how to politely say “I’ll get to it when I get to it” so sometimes I mention the bottleneck (which I know is a minimal issue). Since they’re non-technical, sometimes they freak out. OR, they have something with a hard deadline of one month, but I tell them I expect to have it finished in 2 weeks. If I end up needing to push it back for some reason (usually because I haven’t started it yet), I feel like it’s unprofessional to come back to them and say it’s going to be delayed, even if I’m still within the real deadline.
    So, how to I manage expectations about how long something takes? For the second scenario I’m consciously trying to stop giving dates and just saying something like “I’ll let you know when it’s ready” (with the obvious implication that it will be before their hard deadline). But in the first scenario, which is usually for things needed within the day (which is why a delay freaks out the requester), I’ve started just ignoring the emails/IMs until I’ve completed the task. It helps with my concentration since I’m not jumping from task to task, but I worry it looks rude. At the same time, I don’t want them to know it only takes 30 minutes to do this task because then they’ll start giving me a lead time of only 30 minutes and I have other work as well. To complicate things further, sometimes my piece of work needs to be passed on to someone else, so it would be helpful for them to know when to expect it. I guess I’m just looking for a polite way to give people enough information to not worry OR to confirm when they actually need something by (ex. 4pm, end of business day) without letting them know I’m not actually working on it at the moment.

    TL;DR: when people ask you to do something, how do you manage their expectations about how long it will take, and how do you communicate with them>

    1. GOG11*

      One way to manage expectations would be to work with any existing systems you have in place (if you have them). For example, if you have any sort of ticketing system that they use that has them fill out a form to create a request, you could include a priority ranking and descriptors of those ranks. For example having users choose “high – employee can’t work” vs “medium – I can work around the problem,” etc.

      Additionally, when a ticket (or even email request) is submitted, there could be some sort of message that gives them some info on how the process works. This would also act as confirmation that their request was received.

      Being able to implement these (if there aren’t existing systems in place) depends on your workplace culture (would this make you seem inaccessible and difficult to work with, for example) and how resistant people are to change. The latter could be helped if you get buy in from others who can advocate for the system as a way to handle requests more efficiently.

      When I worked for a print center, we would always say “The turn around time for jobs is a standard 24 hours. We’ll complete it as quickly as we can, so it may be sooner, but whether or not that happens depends on the other jobs we’ve got going on.” Could this be adapted to fit the situations you’re in?

      Also, I always think of the phrase “people aren’t against you, they’re for themselves.” People aren’t intentionally difficult, they’re just focused on their work and what they need to get it done. They may have no idea what things look like on your end or how many requests your handling (or that the priority of the tasks is relative to what other tasks are in your queue). I know you’re probably pulled in 30 directions at once, but changing hearts and minds a job at a time can also be helpful, especially if you see people face to face. When/as appropriate and applicable, have conversations about how to do X or give them tips or show them things that make sense for them to do themselves rather than calling you up to have you do it. This takes time, but it can cut down on certain types of incidents and it can build rapport with your coworkers. Some people aren’t open to learning these kinds of things, but other people may feel empowered by it or appreciate not having a minor thing hold up their work. You have to have a feel for the person.

      Sometimes I even acknowledge that the systems I work through aren’t ideal but they’re the reality of the situation and use humor where it makes sense to. “I know installing updates (or other IT/computer related thing) is about as fun as waiting in line at the DMV, but it really will help your computer’s performance. It’s fine to wait til the end of the day so you can let it do its thing and have it ready to go the next morning.”

      I hope this helps. I don’t work in IT, but I do work with a lot of systems in a support role and my coworkers usually just don’t know what goes on behind the scenes or what’s realistic.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Just borrowing from what others do:

      Some people build a dead spot into each day, for example an hour between 1 and 2 pm. This dead spot where nothing is scheduled allows them to catch up if they have fallen behind or gives a little time for an emergency that pops up. Not a magic bullet solution, but it starts to build a pressure relief into each working day.

      A ranking system is huge. If my furnace is not working, I know that I get service quicker than someone whose furnace is limping along. The oil company (power company does this, too) always asks “do you have heat?” (or power- if I am talking to the power company). I am always honest because I don’t want them flagging my account as “drama queen”.

      As often as possible, take you estimated time to completion and PAD it. This is not dishonest because surprisingly too many times you will find that you need that padding. Most recently, I came home to no power. I called the power company and said “uh, it’s 5 above zero here and i have no heat because I have no power”. The person was very nice, he researched and said, “The estimated time to repair was 7 pm.” I was overjoyed because this meant only waiting 2 hours. AND because based on previous experience with their estimates, the power would be on sometime before 7 if at all possible. Sure, enough the lights flickered on and off at 6:15. At 6:35 they came on and stayed on. Yes, I am a happy customer, they under promised and over delivered.

      Do not avoid calls. People that call and get no answer sometimes panic. However, if you have voice mail (you should) do leave clear instructions on what to expect. “My hours are from x-y, Monday through Friday. If you get this message during business hours, it is because I am helping another customer. Leave your name and number I will call you back between customers. [Or whatever your call back procedure is.]

      Lastly, look for customers who are willing to try things by following instructions you give over the phone. Not everyone is willing to do this, but you will notice that some people are. This can save you time and it also can save you some work, because if you do have to work on the problem, you know that the customer has already tried A and B and you can skip directly to C.

    3. Nina*

      Please just be honest. In my last job I did a lot of being the intermediary between the IT department and other teams, and it drove me crazy to hear something like “I’ll get to it when I get to it.” Usually IT is one piece of larger projects, and other people need to be able to plan their work around it. If I don’t have information about whether one piece is likely to be finished today or two weeks from today, that makes it basically impossible to figure out how the rest of the project should be scheduled.

      You could say, “I have some priority projects today and tomorrow, but I should be able to get to this by the end of the week.” Or, “If everything goes well I should be able to complete this by the 20th, but if the thingamabob turns out to need a whatchimacallit in the wankel rotary engine, it’ll take until the 30th. I’ll be able to let you know by the 19th which one it will be.”

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      I work in IT, too, and I’ve found it’s best not to give a time frame, if possible. I think the key thing is just communication. If someone makes you aware of a problem, you tell them you’ll look into it and give status updates… and then give the updates, even if it’s “I’ve been swamped with X, Y, Z emergencies, and I’ll have a chance to look into your issue more thoroughly tomorrow” and then look into it tomorrow.

  124. Socks*

    Hi everyone! I’ve read AAM for a long time and I’m hoping someone can give me some advice about the confusing situation in which I’ve found myself.

    I recently moved to a new area where I don’t know anyone. I have been searching for a job for a little under a month, but have been learning that there aren’t as many opportunities within the distance I am willing to commute as I had thought. As such, I have been searching for myself and have also sent my resume to some staffing agencies that work within my general field (laboratory science).

    Recently, I sent my resume in for a few jobs that had similar titles to my last job. I also applied to a job through a temp agency that I knew from the title wasn’t specifically in my area of expertise, but I thought I’d give it a try anyway. I heard back from the temp agency and went on an interview for that job.

    Later the same day, I heard back separate individuals for the jobs that had similar titles to my former position and discovered that unknowingly, I had applied to 3 different jobs within the same company. The company has recently changed their name and so they had posted for jobs under their old name, their new name, and with the temp agency. I told both people who tried to contact me that I had already had an interview with someone in the company for a temporary job, but was more interested in a permanent position. The manager wanted to know if I was interested anyway. I told them I was and asked them let me know what steps they wanted me to take next (calling in to schedule an interview, etc.)

    The next day I received work from the staffing agency recruiter that I had been offered the temporary job. I told them that I wanted to think about it before accepting. They pressed me a few times to explain why I wanted time and I told them the truth: that I had unknowingly applied directly and the company was interested in interviewing me for a permanent, better-paid position. They informed me that it might take more time for me to be hired for the permanent job and I told them that that was fine with me. Two hours later, the recruiter called me again and informed me that the company was no longer interested in pursuing me in any other position than the temporary one. At that point it had been 24 hours since I had asked about next steps from the company and had not heard a reply. I told them that I wanted time to think about it still.

    The more I thought about it, the sketchier this sequence of events seemed. I certainly had not asked anyone at the temp agency to intervene on my behalf for the other positions. I turned down the temporary job because I don’t want this person to profit from my hard work when I think they may have actively interfered with me getting a better job at this company.

    My question is, should I try to call the managers that reached out to me before and move forward in the positions I applied for directly or should I consider it a lost cause?

    1. StudentA*

      I would go for it anyway. The recruiter has no loyalty to you, and may even have lied to you. If this is a company you’re interested in, stay in touch with the company employees (not sure if you specified that an in-house recruiter called or a hiring manager) and ignore what the staffing agency said (since it sounds like you don’t want to work with this staffing agency anymore).

      1. Socks*

        Thanks for the reply! I suspected that the temp agency recruiter had either lied to me about their lack of interest or actively tried to keep me from being considered for the other positions. I have certainly learned I do not want to work with this agency anymore and feel a little naive that I thought being honest would do me any good. I’ll try to contact the company about the other positions next week.

    2. CreationEdge*

      According to numerous AaM posts:

      Staffing agencies and employers have contracts that dictate rules on how to handle an applicant that has applied both directly to the employer and through the staffing agency. Usually, these contracts state that whichever entity received/handled the application first has a “claim” on the individual. This is to ensure that the staffing agency gets their proper payment.

      So, if your application through the temp agency, per this agreement, is considered to be first, then the employer has to let you apply through the temp agency only. To hire you directly would be a violation of their contract with the staffing agency.

      If this is the case, it could very well mean that the staffing agency recruiter reached out to your prospective employer, informed them that the agency was working with you first, and so the employer released their interest in you for those other positions.

      It’s not necessarily a shady process. But, a manager at the other company may be able to let you know whether or not that was the case.

      1. Socks*

        I had considered this as well. I read all of the recruiting articles again just to see if there was anything close to this circumstance and saw that staffing agencies frequently have this sort of agreement. The thing that leaves a bad taste in my mouth is that they were pushing hard for me to take a position that doesn’t make sense for me to take in light of the company’s interest in me in a higher position. The position offered to me was a temporary fill in for someone going on leave. I understand that their #1 priority is filling the low-paid, temporary position that needs filled by next week. But it’s unsavory to try to pressure me into taking it when I ask for time to think about it. It was obvious to me when the staffing agency recruiter called back to inform me that the company was no longer interested in me for any other position but the one offered through them that I was supposed to fall all over myself to take any job available. I’m not holding my breath that that will be possible to get the other jobs anymore, but I will probably at least try to reach out to the company and see if I could.

    3. BRR*

      I’m not sure I understand everything but if it’s a recruiter for a temp position who wasn’t involved in the permanent position interview process don’t trust his rejection. He doesn’t get his fee if you accept a position he wasn’t involved in. You might want to reach out to the hiring manager for the permanent position to clarify your status.

      If the temp position is the same position as you had with the recruiter they most likely cannot pursue you outside the recruiter due to the contract with the recruiter.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Just based on what I have read about temping here, I think you made an honest mistake that is clearly explainable. (Referring to the different company names.) I think it would be obvious to most people that you had no intention of shafting the temping company. Therefore, I would continue forward as I normally would with my apps for the permanent jobs. If the confusion about the temp job came up, I would apologize and explain that I did not realize until it was too late that I had applied to the same company through the temp agency.

  125. Karowen*

    I know no one will read this, but I’m still hoping for good vibes! I just submitted my first application in about 3 years, only my second application in my (very short) professional career. I’ve taken Alison’s advice to heart, and re-did my resume, worked carefully on my cover letter, and now I’m going to move on…after I stop hyperventilating.

    4. JAL*

      Good luck! I’ve been redoing my resume and cover letter as well, now that I have found AAM in hopes I get out of my hellish job.

  126. CreationEdge*

    I’m an adult non-traditional student currently enrolled in a Bachelor’s degree MIS program, due to graduate in about 2 1/2 years. My college career services, as well as a lot of career advice, says that internships are practically a must-have for landing that first post-graduation job.

    I’m wondering how much this holds true for adult students. Are they still necessary?

    If so, I wonder if my other experience would count. I had an internship in an IT department while I was attending a community college. Now that I’ve moved to this university, I have a work study position that deals with supporting some technology in education.

    I’ll likely try to get an internship in summer of ’16 (this summer I’m having another son, so I don’t want to commit to a temporary position), regardless, but I’m not sure how much pressure I should really put myself under.

    1. Felicia*

      I think it’s not that an internship itself is the must-have to landing the first graduation job, it’s having related work experience that’s the must have. So is your previous experience IT-related? Thats really the big factor. Of course it counts, but it’s more related experience than experience in general.

      Different field, but my several internships were definitely a must have for my post graduation job. If a mature student had graduated with years of experience in a totally different field annd hadn’t done any internships, I would have had the advantage because I had some experience doing the exact thing the job required, while they would have had much more experience than me – in general – they wouldn’t have the directly relevant experience.

      So short answer, depends what your experience is in.

    2. JAL*

      I would’t pressure yourself if you have experience. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think fields like technology don’t regard internships as highly as fields like psychology or law, because there seems to be ways to get experience without needing one.

      1. CreationEdge*

        I think tech fields do regard internships highly. Tech companies and large companies with big IT departments are constantly soliciting students at my school, and participating in our career fairs and activities. I think my career services advisor informed me that over 90% of MIS graduates that had a job lined up at graduation, 60% of them had an internship. Unfortunately for me, those #s don’t tell a clear story, 95%+ of the typical students in my program are younger than I, likely with little to no experience outside of their internships.

        My IT department internship I had was quite long (over a year), but I was unfulfilled. I did so little that I’m having a hard time even figuring out what to put on my resume aside from name and dates.

        Otherwise, aside from being tech-savvy and already having an AA in programming, I don’t have direct experience as it relates to MIS.

        I suppose I’ll keep my career services advisor up-to-date. My current work study position may evolve to better count as experience. (I was hired for light tech support, but after about a week I was able to transition to a web content/light dev role, and I may end up doing more research-related work in the future).

        On a side note: Should I put the fact that I read AaM daily on my resume? (Joking)

    3. BRR*

      It depends what your past experience is, what your career goals are for after graduation, and if you’re working now.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I went back to school in my 40s. Not to put any pressure on you, but I should have done internships. My problem was I was too cynical about the openings I saw at that time. Plus, I was driving 100 miles per day to do this degree. But, yeah, if I could do over, I would have found a way to do some internships. If it means delaying your degree date, then that might be something you want to consider.

  127. Dynamic Beige*

    I’m wondering if anyone here could help me with something I’ve been mulling over? You all seem very nice and from a wide variety of backgrounds, so I’m sure someone will have a viewpoint I haven’t considered. I don’t want to talk this over with people I know in my industry as they will be biased, also it’s a very small industry where everyone knows everyone and I wouldn’t want some crazy rumour to get started and passed around.

    I’ve been self-employed/freelancing for over 10 years now. I’ve been considering branching out into different areas and pursuing clients directly — not ones I currently work with as contracts have been signed prohibiting that. It’s kind of hard to explain, but right now most of my work comes from agencies — I guess essentially starting my own agency is the way to look at it. Because of the way my work comes from agencies, I realised a few years ago that if I ever did succeed at getting my own clients, I could not freelance again, or more likely the various companies I currently freelance at might be leery of hiring me, that I might try to take their business/trade secrets/whatever. In part because of that, I was thinking to start this up under a new business name that is not associated with the one I currently use as there is no way I’m going to be starting off landing a multi-million dollar contract that will make it possible for me to just stop freelancing for my current clients (sadly). So I decided on a name that I like but because it has nothing to do with the industry that I’m in, I have been wondering if I should include a line in the name that directs it back to that industry?

    I won’t use my actual business name, but currently my company name is similar to this one: TK Multimedia (this is an actual company in New York). I feel that the “multimedia” part is kind of limiting in a way, even though that is what I do.

    The name that I’ve chosen, it’s unique and only six letters. I mean seriously, I got the .com for it and everything which isn’t supposed to be possible. It’s also very… well, I’m going to use an Ikea product to demonstrate: Florvag — if you weren’t Swedish (I’m not) and didn’t know what that was, it could be anything. Which on the one hand is great but on the other, do you really want to be fielding calls all day about widgets when you deal in chocolate teapots? If a business card just said Florvag Inc. would that be enough? Or, should it say something like

    Florvag Communications
    Florvag Communications and Events
    Florvag Creative Solutions
    Florvag Creative Services

    I’m probably over thinking this. Maybe having just a name like Florvag is a conversation starter that opens a discussion? Probably people who are interested in finding out more would just go to the website and do so. Maybe the question I’m asking is: do you find it annoying to get a business card that doesn’t automatically describe the business? Do the descriptor lines I’ve thought up bring up red flags? I didn’t go to business school, so all this kind of stuff isn’t my forté. Thanks in advance!

    1. Student*

      I think the thing you are looking for is a slogan or catchphrase.

      Florvag
      A single solution for your multimedia needs
      Dynamic Beige – Director

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I think that you need more to your business name than Florvag. Once you are established, you can shorten the name to Florvag in casual conversation, but you need descriptors in your business name. Of the four you give here, I think Florvag communications and events is your best choice.
      The first one, could be a phone company. Name #3 I have no idea what types of problems/settings you are offering creative solutions for. Name #4 I have no clue what you are offering creative services for.

      Not trying to be a wise guy- but to me Florvag is not a conversation starter- it shuts down conversation. I have no idea what it is, and I do not have time to try to figure it out. (I did not even google now, to see what you are talking about!)

      I do have a bias- I like things simple, clear, and straight forward. If you are offering practical business solutions, then your name should reflect that sensibleness. Just my opinion, though.

      One thing I have read and held on to – is that a person should name their business something that inspires them and reminds them of their main goals for the company. Picture a bad day at work. You stop yourself dead in your tracks and say “No, I am not going to let this derail me, my company name is Sensible Business Solutions because I CAN find sensible solutions for situations!”
      I thought this method of thinking about names was a great idea.

      1. Dynamic Beige*

        Thanks! You’ve both given me some very good points to ponder.

        Florvag was just an example name, but I get where you’re coming from. I had not thought of some sort of slogan, though, and that might be the way to handle it. I’m going to have to think about this some more, get out some paper and see things written down perhaps that will help solidify it.

  128. Nothing Like It*

    I just completed a two week enterprise software training for a consulting role. I am senior in my career, and have been around these type of systems and completed software training before.

    I need a reality check. I am senior in my career, so I have done training before, and developed training.

    I just completed a two week enterprise software training class. The training was 8 hours or more in the classroom each day and then another 4 to 6 hours of homework each night, plus a weekend team project. The instructor was one of the nastiest people I have ever met, and the training materials were poorly written “on purpose” to develope your skills. Here is the kicker, the software vendor won’t let third party consultants work on system implementations unless they take this course and pass a test. This is not a small software start up. To me this was a truly toxic train wreck.

    Is this boot camp mentality the new training norm? I was appalled that this company would treat their future work partners this way and risk having poor work associated with their brand.

    1. JAL*

      I’m new in the workforce (I graduated college this past May) and this seems ridiculously stupid to me. It sound very toxic and I haven’t have made it through this training B.S. (and this is someone who has just came out of college, with seemingly endless amounts of homework).

    2. Not So NewReader*

      This is a company that is doing everything possible to make sure its product does NOT sell.

    3. Nothing Like It*

      Sorry for the typos. I was brain dead.

      I started the training on my second day of employment with NewCompany. As a condition of my employment I needed to pass the class on the first attempt. I did not pass the class and asked for do-over.

      I had some things going against me, like equipment (new Max vs. lifelong PC user) and my chronic health condition. I would have never signed up if I would have know the details of this training. I don’t know if I should bring this stuff up, since a good number of people passed the class.

      1. Nina*

        If a health condition impacted your ability to take the training, you might be able to ask for accommodations.

        However, this sounds like a pretty awful company. Are you sure you want a job with them? This might be a red flag to just walk away.

        1. Nothing Like It*

          DH said the same thing and I am agreeing, that I should cut my losses. NewCompany did not do the training, it was done by BigSoftware who they sub-contract for. However, NewCompany has had a relationship with BigSoftware for many years, so they are very aware of the pace. I knew it wasn’t going to be fun and games, and they said it was hard, but didn’t say expect 14 hours days and such poor presentation. I figured out that my hourly salary was diluted to $10.50 an hour. I could cashier at a big box retailer for the same money and less stress.

  129. JAL*

    One more question for the day:

    What is the best source to look for not-for-profit jobs? I have realized after a lot of soul searching, that is the type of place I’d like to work.

    1. BRR*

      It depends what you want to do and if you are looking in a specific location or nation-wide. Nonprofits have many departments.

    2. Felicia*

      Depends where you live and what kind of job you’re looking for. For Canada, charityvillage.com is great! But it really depends, and you can often find them the same places you find any other job.

    4. Jean*

      In the U.S. there’s idealist.org . I don’t know much else about it except that a lot of the jobs seemed either entry-level or advanced and I’m in that in-between zone.
      While looking for idealist.org I stumbled across another aspect of this organization: a sort of career focused web site at http://idealistcareers.org/redirected/
      Alison is probably a good source of information because she spent a significant amount of time working in the nonprofit world.
      Concluding thoughts (not that these will be the last word on the subject…just that it’s late and my brain is fading):
      a) Many nonprofits have their own web sites which include job listings. You may want to make a list of organizations which interest you in terms of mission and/or geographic location.
      b) The nonprofit world is very diverse. In addition to advocacy groups across the political spectrum (from NARAL to the NRA, for example) to less overtly political organizations such as hospitals, higher education, museums, other cultural organizations (e.g. Missouri Botanical Garden, the National Zoo) charitable foundations, animal shelters, and wildlife education organizations. There are also professional organizations both large (e.g., American Psychological Association, American Bar Association, American Chemical Society) and small (e.g., National Association of State Budget Officers, Society of Architectural Historians).
      Good luck and I hope this helps.

      1. JAL*

        Actually, I volunteered for the Refugee Resettlement program at Catholic Charities in college for a service based course that I really enjoyed and found interest in and I just saw they posted a paid position as a citizenship specialist. I have a bit of a legal background, and this would be rewarding for me.

    6. Student*

      Some government contractors are also non-profits. Mine is.

      There are also universities and research facilities – most of the well-known ones are non-profit, though not all of them are. Some hospitals are non-profit.

      Direct government work, at the local, state, or federal level, is also non-profit, but I understand that’s likely not what you are interested in.

  130. justine*

    So far my efforts to file an EEO complaint is messed up at every turn.
    Is this normal?

    This is today’s installment in what I’m calling “As The EEO Turns”
    (soap opera reference for anyone who doesn’t get it)

    So, after 34 days since trying to submit my EEO compliant (my employee handbook for the federal employer I work for says to go to HR to be connected to the EEO officer, but they didn’t who where I should go), getting a lawyer to help me, etc… the EEO officer finally calls me at my home phone number as I requested in both voicemails and emails I left for her.

    She sends me a document and one of the questions is do I want to remain anonymous.

    I get to my very tiny office after talking to her and the person I’m filing the complaint against sent me an email saying the EEO officer called for me.

    So much for anonymity!

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Ugh. I hope you say something to the EEO officer. If you feel this will put you in jeopardy, definitely mention it.

    2. AnotherFed*

      That’s totally not normal, nor is it acceptable. I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this.

      First, document everything, particularly your employer’s response to you making the EEO complaint, including any interference (deliberate or due to ignorance) from HR, the EEO officer’s errors, and any further response from management and your EEO officer. Right now it sounds more like incompetence than an attempt to prevent you from filing a complaint, but it’s still throwing up roadblocks in filing your complaint, which is a huge no-no.

      If you work for a DoD office or installation, use your CO’s feedback mechanism to report these difficulties to him or her. Stick to facts, but point out the roadblocks preventing people from reporting incidents and filing EEO complaints. This is currently a huge deal for DoD commands, so even if you never hear anything back, it’s very likely that the EEO process for your specific place of work will get some high level attention and process improvement. If you don’t work for DoD, this is still a reasonable action, provided you are not worried about negative repercussions from your employer.

      Finally, if your workplace seems to be actively trying to prevent you from filing a complaint, or your EEO officer continues to perform exceptionally poorly, you have several other resources. First, most major Departments (DOJ, USPS, DoD, etc) have their own EEO implementation group, who would be very interested if your employer is impeding your efforts to file a complaint. If you’re a small department, this might not be any different from who you reported the incident to in the first place. The Inspector General does not investigate EEO complaints themselves, but if your organization is not obeying the EEO policies, your EEO officer appears to be abusing the system, or you feel that action is being taken against you because of your EEO complaint (requirements for adverse action are fairly strict – look at the Whistleblower protections for more details) they may be able to help, or direct you to a better option. You also have the Office of Special Counsel, who mostly focus on personnel actions, but may be interested in policies and practices that prevent employees from filing EEO complaints.

      1. justine*

        Thank you!

        Yeah – roadblocks galore!
        My immediate chain of command didn’t even mention EEO as an option.
        About 16 days after I reported it, they said they couldn’t do anything if just giving everyone training wasn’t enough for me and I’d have to go to HR.
        I call my assigned HR rep. She says she can’t help and transfers me to someone in the CPAC (civilian personnel action) and she offers mediation, which she said is the first step and if I want to file a formal EEO complaint I can file it with her and I said ok. So I think I’m in the precomplaint/informal time. A month goes by, no mention of mediation from anyone and I’m checking in with the CPAC rep asking what’s going on, things at work get worse. I do some research on my own, talk to a lawyer, and learn this is not how it’s supposed to go.

        And there is nothing posted at work about filing EEO complaints and in the past year I know there hasn’t been any training.

        Do you have any insight on what CPAC is? Is it just to stall complaints?

        1. AnotherFed*

          I am only familiar with CPAC as the general term for all personnel actions, including disciplinary action, promotions, grievances, new job postings, etc. It’s very likely that this is how your agency handles informal mediation. Lots of places prefer mediation because it doesn’t count as a formal complaint against the agency and the complainant can negotiate what they want in a less formal setting. Of course, if you have a systemic issue at your workplace, mediation is less likely to work out.

          Now, you do have a limited timeline on an EEO complaint. You have to report the incidents (it sounds like there may have been follow-on incidents in you case) to the EEO counselor within 45 days of when they occur. It is important to include everything, and if necessary provide updates, because if you do move forward with a compliant, you can only move forward with the things you notified the EEO counselor of – you can’t add things later unless they happened later and you reported them within the 45 day window. It sounds like this CPAC person is your EEO counselor, but I would verify that with them – you don’t want to be in a situation where you think you’ve reported the incident but your agency does not.

          Whether you choose mediation or not, or you move forward with a formal complaint, the EEO counselor has 30 days after you reported the incident to provide counseling (including both informing you of the EEO process and conducting any informal mediation). This can be extended by up to 60 days, but I believe that requires special circumstances, like agreeing to the Alternative Dispute Resolution process. The EEO counselor has to tell you in writing that counseling is over, what your rights are, and give you the specifics of filing a formal complaint against your agency. After that, you have to file a formal complaint within 15 days.

          Training in EEO is one of those things that varies – I think ours is lumped in with prevention of sexual harassment training. You may have gotten it so condensed and buried that it was useless, or your agency might just have missed it. The best resource for you, if you work for a decent sized agency or department, is probably to Google your department and EEO – especially if you feel like you may not be getting sent to the right person, or your CPAC contact turns out to not be your EEO counselor. You can also refer to the EEO dot gov website and search for the federal complaint process for an overview of the process.

  131. a ninny mouse*

    Has anybody heard of Work pop? Here is their description i found in a job ad “Setting up a profile takes minutes, after which you can apply to any job on our site with 1 click! We at Workpop encourage you to showcase your skills and personality with a video cover letter, we’ve seen it greatly increases chances of getting the interview (and ultimately hired). They look forward to seeing your application, good luck! “

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      No video, I beg you! The vast majority of employers do not want them, I promise you. I’m pretty skeptical of any job site that encourages you to use them — signals that they have some agenda other than giving people a direct route to jobs, usually.

    3. fposte*

      It looks like it’s a new startup job board. If you could just list your regular info without video there it probably wouldn’t hurt anything, but I doubt that tons of employers are looking there now either, so I wouldn’t change my job search over it.

  132. Kat*

    Not really a question but I got a new job! After years of working in retail and only having an AA in Liberal Studies, I was wondering if I was ever going to find something or if I was going to have to suck it up and get a Bachelor’s so I can get a “real” job.

    It’s at a place I used to temp at once in a while and the timing couldn’t have been better. They interviewed me and a few other people, but they ended up hiring me because I know the job already (even though I have to learn some new things). It’s a small company, and pretty laid back, so I get to come home and leave my work at the office and not stress about stuff. I’m hourly, but it’s good pay, and enough to finally move out again (with friends, but at least I can save up for a new car and a place of my own). I’m getting a lot of “how to do this” stuff thrown at me right now, but I’ve been told I’m doing a great job so far.

    I do have to thank AAM for her advice. I redid my resume and after reading it, my now supervisor made a joke saying, “Thank you for not putting down you’re a hard worker and a team player.” I laughed and said, “What are the other buzzwords going around? Works efficiently? Is a people person?” I enjoy reading the column, and even though a lot of it doesn’t usually apply to me, it is interesting reading about other people’s workplaces and a lot of the practical advice is helpful. My dad is out of a job right now and I’m trying to get him to read this site to help him out in his job search.

  133. Anonyby*

    Wow, huge thread today! And I’m way late to it.

    Quick question though… A while back someone that was helping me with my resume suggested removing the ‘Weekend’ part of my job title from my resume to make it look stronger… (I’m a receptionist.) At the time I wasn’t even entirely sure what the actual title on file was for me. Recently I’ve figured out that HR does actually have ‘Weekend Receptionist’ as my job title on-file… So would it be better to keep it as ‘Receptionist’ on my resume or put my actual job title?

    2. Apollo Warbucks*

      I think you could list your title as receptionist, as long as you make it very clear from your CV that it is a part time job.

  134. Anx*

    Ah, I hope I’m not too late!

    I know there’s no such thing as a perfect job, but I’ve found a posting for a job that really seems to be a logical next step that closes on Tuesday, and is only being posted for 8 days. It’s at a university.

    I am full-time student finishing up an A.S. that is related to my B.S. I know, I know…that seems odd. But after a long bought of underemployment (most un-) I needed to do something to keep myself from floundering. Anyways, I don’t really need the degree as I already have a BS, but some of the classes are pretty interesting. This semester I was going to do internship (one of the main reasons I decided to go back to school), but my classes were scheduled smack in the middle of the day this semester so I’m putting it off. I am working part time tutoring Baseball.

    This position is full-time. It would be lab assisting for Baseball and Skiing. I love Skiing and am only tutoring Baseball because there aren’t many students taking Skiing. I have a professional license that heavily relies on knowledge of Skiing (but never found a job doing that).

    I’m hesitant to apply, though, because I’m not sure I would take it if they want the applicant to start right away. I’m not concerned about losing out on my tuition if it means a full-time job. I’m also not even feeling that much guilt over leaving my job (they’ve been awesome to me but I don’t think we’re understaffed in Baseball this semester). But I do feel unsettled leaving my program.

    So I’m very very nervous about actually getting a call back from this instition. It’s one of the main employers in town, and one of the very few Sports employers in the region. I’ve applied to a shameful number of positions and I’m worried that although I’ve cooled it lately that I’m going to contribute toward flagging myself. Or worse, leaving a bad impression if I decide not to take the job. I’d hate to burn a bridge with this school.

    Is there any chance they could be hiring for another semester? Or does the short window indicate they are desperate for someone right now.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I think you are thinking too much. Apply. If they call, talk to them and ask. Maybe they will work with you. Maybe they will tell you “We can’t do that now, but please call us in three months.” You don’t know until you find out. You could go to the interview and find out they are the most horrid people you have ever met in your life and there is no way on this green earth you will ever work for them. But you won’t know this until you talk to them.

      Indecision is caused in part by lack of facts. Collect up more facts then decide.

      1. GOG11*

        +1

        It doesn’t seem like applying for this position would jeopardize your current arrangements, so there isn’t much if anything to lose in that respect. It seems like you’re a bit anxious about the what ifs so I think doing as Alison suggests and moving on mentally once you’ve applied is also a good idea. Try not to agonize over the what ifs of each next step – focus on what is in front of you and if you progress (either through their decisions or yours) it will be a pleasant surprise.

      2. Anx*

        I suppose my fear is seeming inconsiderate or a little bit hauty. I have very little ‘professional’ experience and although I’ve been doing very similar work here and there, I haven’t had a devoted full-time job with more focused responsibilities, and that seems to be the big barrier for many fields. Part-time, volunteer, student employment just isn’t the same. So even though I know that a skilled professional brings something to the table and I’m interviewing them just as much, the truth is I feel as though an interview is a favor. And I’d hate to waste a favor.

        I know universities have bizarre hiring timetables, so I’m hoping to sell myself on the fact that there really is a possibility they are looking to start someone in a few months.

        I’m mostly worried of making a bad impression with HR. I’m sure they get hundreds of applicants a week (unemployment is high in this town) and I’d hate to flag myself. I’m still worried that I’ll only get one shot with this place. It’s probably not very rational, but I’ve been applying there for 3+ years.

        I do need more information, though. I can always try moving in the future if I truly do waste my shots.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Interviewing is their job. It’s not a favor. They are working very full days and do not have time to do people favors. If you get interviewed that is because you have something on your resume they like.

          I sincerely doubt you are flagging yourself. Probably they do not even remember your name. That sounds cruel, but it is a possibility given all the apps they must receive. Unless you have been told directly to stop applying, I would keep applying.

          Please read AAM daily. Please look for articles on hiring. Learn how the hiring process works and read people’s stories of what has happened to them. This will give you reference points for what is going on out there, what to expect, what is normal and what is not normal.
          Take your focus off of the things that have no bearing and probably are NOT happening -such as flagging and doing favors- and replace those ideas with ideas that will actually help you. (Those ideas are not helping you.)

  135. Soon To Be New Grad*

    Annual reviews are coming up and I’m looking for tips/ideas on how to approach this… I know the advice is to not use “I just got a master’s degree” as a reaon for a raise, but my degree is highly relevant to the work I am doing. My boss has been really supportive of my school work, even going so far as to allow a really flexible work schedule for classes with inconvienet lecture times.

    I started this job early on in my masters program (a little over a year ago) and I’ll be finishing my masters this May. I’ve also been told that my masters was a selling point when they hired me and my bachelors alone would not have caught their attention. I work in a STEM field and the starting salary was already on the lower end of market rate for a new grad with just a BS. It’s also an industry that gives a lot of weight to degrees, certifications, etc.

    I’ve also applied to doctoral programs for this fall, after I’ve completed my masters. My boss is aware of this and she is incredibly supportive (including being one of my LoRs) and is excited for me and knows that I would be doing my research on a topic relevant to work. (I’d be pursing the doctorate part time). So, given how important my education seems to be to them, is there a way to frame this in asking for a raise? I’d also like to try negotiating a high rate for tuition reimbursement but I think I’d probably be less successful with that…

    tdlr: Annual reviews coming up and Boss really values my education so I’m wondering if there’s a way to work that into asking for a raise?

    1. AnotherFed*

      I’d suggest trying to work it in more in terms of specific impact on your ability to do the work required by your job, or do it better/faster/cheaper. Use something like “Thanks to my recent class in Corrosion and Degradation of Non-Metallic Materials, I was able to quickly identify the underlying failure mode of the new Chocolate Teapots and implement a new, lower temperature curing process to improve the teapot strength and prevent failures. This saved weeks of time and three batches of teapots.” and not “I am interested in continuing education, as evidenced by my expected graduation from Teapot Program Masters of Chocolate Material Science in May.”

  136. AnotherTeacher*

    Asking again…I know this is late, but am hoping someone has had a similar situation:

    I worked for a school with the policy that potential employers should contact HR, who will confirm dates of employment, title, etc. From another AAM thread, the consensus is that it’s still best to say that the former manager can be contacted; however, my former supervisor has been gone for a few years. She and I did not get along and have not been in touch. She even lied to about why I left that school. (A mutual contact at another school told me.) I have plenty of collegial references from there, though. What’s the best way to handle this?

    1. Apollo Warbucks*

      I can’t imagine this being a big problem, if your old manager is not listed as a reference then it’s not likely (although not impossible) that any new job will call them. If you’re filling in online applications that asks for the details then just list her contact details, as the schools and agree for her to be contacted, if they call the school and are told she no longer works there they’ll settle for talking to HR or someone else, it’s not like a new employer will go to much effort to track down your old boss and I think refusing to allow her to be contacted will raise questions.

      1. AnotherTeacher*

        I have other previous supervisors who are fine to contact. At that previous workplace, though, there is no one else who was in a supervisory role.

  137. Audiophile*

    Does anyone else hate those, “in 150 characters or less, tell us what makes you unique” questions? They seem to be a default question from Resumator and Jobvite. I can’t stand them. I used to have a “funny” answer or at least I thought it was funny. I never know how to answer them or what sounds “creative” or might “catch” their eye. *rant over*

    2. voluptuousfire*

      Yep. I call it the “hipster” recruitment software. I keep a little blurb for it in a Word document and alter it as needed. My blurb covers my skills and also shows I have a sense of humor.

  138. Ruffingit*

    I posted in the last thread about getting a raise, but not really benefiting from it since health insurance basically took it out. Well, in this paycheck, I saw another raise. Apparently, they wanted me to benefit from it at least a little so they upped my salary so I’d have some extra cash in the paycheck. It’s not huge, but I sure appreciate it.

  139. Janet J*

    I work in NYS in a very large dental office that has a CEO and a board. Dentists are contractors, dental assistants and office staff are paid hourly. Dental Hygienists are strictly commission. If we don’t have a patient in the chair then we are not getting paid. My question is that management has asked us to wash windows among other things when we don’t have a patient. (We are not being paid hourly) Legally do we have to?
    Thanks.

    1. Ruffingit*

      Wow, I’ll be interested in the answer to this one. I would think the contractors would not have to because they are contracting to do a specific job. Hourly workers, yes they likely would have to. Commission folks? I’m thinking not because they’re not being paid for it. But I don’t know, again I’m interested in the answer to this if anyone knows for sure.

  140. ForcedRetiree*

    I don’t know if this is going to be seen here, but I’m posting it anyway.

    Due to an unfortunate set of circumstances, I was forced to retire from my job of 30+ years or be terminated. There was an issue with a coworker, that after HR investigated was deemed to be unfounded accusations on his part. However, he was threatening to sue, and my company, a non-profit, could not afford to defend a lawsuit. Thus I was offered the opportunity to retire with my full benefits rather than be terminated. I wanted to leave on good terms so I choose early retirement. I’m only 56 so I have at least a decade of work life ahead of me, which I know, especially as a woman, will more of an uphill battle.

    One thing I had going for me was my manager felt the whole situation got totally out of hand and should have been handled better on all sides. He promised me he would do whatever he could as a reference to support me getting a new job. I applied for several jobs this past week and contacted him to let him know I listed him as a reference. Apparently now HR is telling him he cannot say anything about me and that if he is contact he must refer the hiring manager to HR where they will only confirm dates of employment and job titles. I’m stunned. My understanding is that legally HR can’t prevent him from giving a reference that is factual and that as long as he does not talk about the circumstances of my retirement, everything is fine. I think HR is being overly cautious, especially as the coworker that caused this mess still works there (I have no idea why and this is part of a bigger problem).

    I’m not sure what I can do in this situation or how to approach it with a future employer. My previous boss is my only former manager, still living, that anyone could talk to. I have other references but they are all from this same company because I was there so long. I’m terrified HR will tell all of them they can’t say anything about me and I will have no references at all.

  141. Lisa*

    I know this post is a couple days old, but I hope someone will see this and respond.

    I hate the intern at my office. We joined the company about the same time – me as a trainee, to be converted to an executive in a couple of months, and she, well, as an intern – and for some reason, she has taken this to mean we’re friends. Not wanting to be rude, I’ve been friendly up until a couple of weeks ago, when her constant obsession with my romantic life (“Is that your boyfriend?” “Do you think he’s cute?” “You like old men right?” “The new freelancer is your boyfriend!” “The art director is your work husband!”) pushed me over the edge and I snapped at her. I told her off and pointed out how inappropriate her behavior is in the workplace, and she apologized. I proceeded to ignore her for about a week, until today. Knowing that she was leaving in a week, I decided to soften up a little. Guess what – she started with her idiotic remarks again.

    Since she’s leaving, I’m just going to ignore her from hereon, and raise it in her feedback session (360 feedback for the win), but I do want to know how to deal with similar people in future. Do I roll my eyes and ignore them? Do I tell them off? Do I slap them across the face so hard they crash out of the window? (Oh, how I wish I could, but HR wouldn’t be too happy with me.)

    1. Graciosa*

      I don’t think you’re going to run across many similar people in the future, but there are a variety of ways to deal with this. With co-workers, there’s a basic escalation along the lines of “I don’t appreciate personal comments at work,” or “That’s not something I would discuss in a professional environment,” followed (if this persists) by, “I’ve told you that this is not an appropriate discussion in the workplace and you need to stop bringing it up,” and (if necessary) “I’ve asked you repeatedly not to make these types of remarks at work, and you have continued to do it. If you do it again, I’m afraid this is an issue I’ll have to address with [Boss] and HR.”

      There is also the perennial favorite for inappropriate remarks – a simple “Wow” and nothing further.

      I think this situation called for something a bit different however. This is an intern, who wants to be friendly but doesn’t know how to do that in a professional environment. If this were college, her remarks would be normal and part of the bonding process of becoming friends. Part of an internship is to let the student discover what the working world is really like, and how it differs from the college environment. You missed an opportunity to teach her an important lesson by giving her a bit more of an explanation (about why this is inappropriate and the impact this kind of behavior has) than you should have to give to another adult professional.

      Letting it go on for a while didn’t do either of you any favors. You reached the point of snapping – which is something generally to be avoided at work – and she clearly didn’t get the message about why you were upset in a way she understood. She did grasp that you were mad at her, but resumed her misguided attempts to become friends once she perceived your anger had passed. It also sounds like you didn’t feel you had other options for handling it (beyond either acceptance at one extreme or blowing up at the other) which is something you should think about for the future.

      If you’re in training for an executive position, you should be observing that the really great ones deal with problems immediately, don’t apologize for assertive behavior (but also don’t “snap” in the workplace) and always appear to have the confidence to handle anything that comes up – including much more serious problems than an intern who is still learning about boundaries and professional behavior.

      Good luck.

  142. beckythetechie*

    HELP. My husband is ill and cannot work (we’re in the process of ruling out cancer), and Monday I learned that I’m being restructured at the end of the week. I may either:
    1) Sign a severance agreement, take 1 month’s (average) payment over 4 weeks and try to move on to something better
    or
    2) Reapply for the position I took just under 5 years ago, and take a 30% pay cut to move into a department where the supervisor has a personal grudge from my time as his manager, but at least I’ll be employed.

    I’ve asked a lawyer friend to look over the severance agreement, and my gut is telling me that I’ll have no better “get out of jail free” card than this. I just don’t know the first thing about getting into another field where I might find more stability than retail offers.

    Any good resources for job seekers changing careers after years in the same general field?
    Any suggestions for ignoring the fear and just pushing on? It’s the fear of no income at all that would drag me into the “safe” decision of the pay cut, but I know it will poison me even faster than the situation already has.

    1. Graciosa*

      I’m so sorry that this is happening to you – what a terrible situation. I really feel for you trying to cope with very serious crises on both the home and work fronts at once – either of them would be overwhelming alone, but both together seems incredibly unfair.

      I don’t have much to add about your options because it sounds like you already know that you can’t manage the second one and need to go with the first, which is probably a very smart choice under the circumstances. A boss who hates you and used to be your subordinate would only add to your difficulties when it’s the last thing you need. Hopefully other advice from Alison’s blog will be more helpful as you look for a new job.

      With sympathy and good wishes –

      1. beckythetechie*

        Many thanks. :) I’m also offered “placement services” through this severance agreement, but since I’ve had to take today off with the flu, I’m not sure what that actually means. I’d love to have someone go over my resume for me. I also have to round up letters of recommendation for some of the positions I’m considering. It’s a nightmare. The good news is, as far as my husband is concerned, lymphoma is off the table, and he’s been offered a part time position (1-2 days/week) that we think he can handle at this time. But the fear is still there. *sigh* What a market…

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