open thread – March 20, 2015

by Alison Green on March 20, 2015

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

{ 1,409 comments }

{ 1,409 comments… read them below }

  1. Anie*

    I need some help on phrasing.

    I like my boss. We get along very well. In some aspects though, her personal opinions are highly offensive to me. I haven’t made an issue, in the past, with her sharing these opinions. I tend to shrug and change the subject, nod and say “I see what you’re saying” and change the subject, etc.

    Yesterday, my boss was discussing religion, which segued into marriage which of course evolved into gay marriage. My responses throughout were mostly “I don’t know anything about that” or even just “I’m unfamiliar.”
    While she was trying to end on a positive note about gay marriage, she said something horrifically repulsive to me. Basically, paraphrased, “I’m sure there are plenty of states where you can f*** sheep, so I don’t know why those people are against gay marriage.”

    I’m sure I don’t need to explain why that comparison is wildly hurtful. I also don’t think it matters what she may or may not be aware of about my sexual orientation. This kind of language isn’t appropriate.

    My response, because I was so shocked, was to stare at her in silence for about thirty seconds. (I was honestly without words.) Then I just walked away. She hasn’t mentioned anything, but I know she in no way thinks she misspoke. Because this sort of comment will happen again (she’s just that free with her opinions), how can I redirect her/stop her?

    1. AAA*

      This is horrible. I don’t have any constructive advice, but I am so so sorry. I’d find it very difficult to work for someone like that.

    2. IT Kat*

      Wow. I am so sorry you have to work with someone like that. I don’t really have any advice, only sympathy… although I know that one of the suggestions floating around the AAM community is when someone says something so completely out of the realm of reason like that is just to state: “WOW.” Like you are totally shocked and in disbelief that was said. Maybe followed up by a “I can’t believe you just said that.” And hurriedly ending the conversation?

        1. Bekx*

          I just used the “Wow.” on a facebook friend who was posting something offensive about my religion. I used the magic “Wow.” and within the hour he deleted the post. Probably helped that he has a crush on me and was mortified, but “Wow.” really does work in all situations!!

        2. Labyrinthine*

          For what it is worth, sometimes the blank stare and walking away does it, too. My process (stopping and redirecting before wildly offensive words spew forth) works at the beginning, but “wow” and blank stares work great once offense has been made.

          1. HR Generalist*

            I agree- I’ve mastered the “early redirect” tactic from interviewing with hiring managers who are totally clueless. When I see them heading in an offensive/illegal direction I say “Okay! Sorry to interrupt, let’s get right to the task at hand here..”

            It would be a lot harder with your boss but maybe leaving the situation, limiting any small talk. In my person life I sometimes say, “Why do you think that?” or “What made you believe that?” to make them think about what they just said, I don’t know if I’d want that kind of confrontation with my boss though, I’d rather just avoid it altogether and not hear about their offensive opinions.

    3. K*

      Does she randomly come up to you and share these opinions, or is she e.g. trying to make conversation while waiting for a meeting to start?

      For the former, I’d try to gently convince her to leave by saying something like, “I’m sorry, but I don’t have time to talk now. I have to get this project done.”

      For the latter, I’d try to redirect the conversation towards something work-related or a more gentile subject. Instead of responding to her last comment, ask a question about something else, like “Have you tried that new cupcake shop?”

      1. Anie*

        She was just making conversation. I’ve never tried to redirect her before, so that’s a good idea. I’m more used to just letting it was over me and sounding non-committal.

        Thanks

    4. Anie*

      Okay, looking back on this more, I could just say, “I find that to be offensive, actually.” Maybe soften it with a grimace or something instead of coming off as super POed and stone-faced? But that’s so hard! And she was talking across several feet of space, loud enough for everyone in our very small office to hear. I don’t like to make waves or act defensive. I feel like I’ll come across as the trouble-maker or hard to work with.

      1. LillianMcGee*

        I think it’s also appropriate to come to her in private after the fact to tell her what she said was offensive and why. I don’t think everything needs to be called out in the moment. Sometimes it’s better to take time to process. She might also have taken some time to reflect on what she said!

        1. JB*

          I agree. Many topics should be brought up later because if you say something in the moment, the person would be defensive. Just walking away from the situation for an hour or even a day or two until you can make sure you’re calm, they’re calm and not in the middle of something urgent or stressful, and you’ve figured out how to approach it.

      2. TL -*

        Or a neutral, quiet, “Did you really mean to liken being gay to beastiality?”

        If you say that with a tone that’s really non-offensive, non-combative, it tends to make people think about what they said and how they’re coming across. It sounds like your boss’s problem is that she’s not really thinking, so a well-placed question may get her to think.

        3. Meg*

          I must be in the minority on this one because the way it was paraphrased made it sound like they weren’t likening being gay to beastiality, but that the state’s voters and residents were okay with humans having sex with animals, but not okay with humans having sex with other humans.

          Still wildly inappropriate, but I don’t think (judging solely on the paraphrased “I’m sure there are plenty of states where you can f*** sheep, so I don’t know why those people are against gay marriage”) they meant it in a “being gay is like beastiality.” I don’t know the context of the rest of the conversation, but it seemed they were taking a stab at various states’ laws, commenting on how incredulous it is that beastiality (of all acts) is perfectly legal in some states, but marrying a same sex partner isn’t.

          Or at least, I hope that’s how they meant it.

          1. Ineloquent*

            Also, just a non-helpful aside… I believe the last state to allow beastiality, Oregon, has made it illegal. So it’s not even a factual offensive statement that she was making.

            1. Snoskred*

              Yeah this fact is where I would go. I’d pull her aside and say “You know the other day when you said some states allow people to f*** sheep? I did some research on this, and the last state that allowed bestiality made it illegal on X date. So there are no states left in America where it is legal to f*** an animal. I just thought you would want to have the correct information on this, because if you use this argument with other people they might make a point of disagreeing with you and you would be in the wrong if they googled. Also, just be aware, when I researched, I discovered that some people find the concept bestiality to be offensive.”

              This way, you get to be the super helpful factual person. You could cut the last line if you wanted or change it to “I have to admit, to compare gay marriage to bestiality was a little offensive to me, because (insert reasons).”

              I have people who used to re-post all those urban legends, and instead of just telling them they were idiots and wrong, I would say “Always snopes it first” and link to where, with just a quick google, they could have found out this was an urban legend. That way I am super helpful researching facts friend, not mega bitch saying they were wrong without proof. :)

          2. BritChick*

            +1 – That’s how I read it too and I can see why she may not see it as having been offensive as she was “on the side” of gay marriage, not against it

      3. Labyrinthine*

        I know there are only a few states that have this, but if you work in a state where sexual orientation is a protected class, ongoing comments like this are what employers get sued for.

        1. Gandalf the Nude*

          Even in states where sexual orientation isn’t a protected class, I think a comment like this, combined with similar instances, would fall under sexual harassment. Also, if I’m recalling correctly, some great cases have been made where harassment relating to one’s sexual orientation has been treated as gender discrimination since, presumably, if the victim was a different gender, the harasser would not be harassing them. Not that I think Anie should jump straight to legal action, just that it might be an available avenue if push came to shove.

          PS – All my sympathy, Anie. What a disgusting thing for her to say.

          2. Bobbi*

            Agreed. It crosses several lines. You have every right to ask her not to even talk about those topics at work, let alone make offensive remarks. In fact, I am not sure what the work environment is, but swearing is unprofessional in most cases.

          3. Labyrinthine*

            I agree jumping right to legal action is almost never advisable. But it does give a safer way of expressing that she is Not. OK. with these comments. She can even phrase it as concern for the company/boss “I think we should be careful, if someone were offended by this conversation we might run afoul of harassment laws”

    5. HeyNonnyNonny*

      I had a coworker– a sweet old lady senior to me– explain to me that legalizing gay marriage is what’s causing all the recent natural disasters. I tend to be as blank as possible, so that I’m no fun to talk to, or I try to bring the conversation back to work somehow. It sucks, but I know there’s no way she’s going to change her mind and realize why this is problematic. Good luck :/

      1. Anie*

        That’s exactly it! There’s nothing I can do to change her mind and I’m not really interested in trying in the middle of my work day anyway. Good luck with your co-worker

      2. BethRA*

        I think you should suggest to such people that it’s probably no accident that the Boston Red Sox only managed to win a World Series again AFTER Massachusetts began recognizing gay marriage.

        (I’ll take your weather whack-jobbery, and raise you a sports-sillyness!)

    6. CrescentFresh*

      Whaaaaaat. This is right up there with the worst boss stories I’ve seen on AAM and I’m so sorry the boss is yours this time. You said you haven’t made an issue with her opinions in the past, but is there any reason not to start making an issue of them now? A phrase I like to use when barely restraining the urge to shame someone is, “I’m don’t know if you know this, but that’s actually a really offensive thing to say.”

      1. Anie*

        “I’m don’t know if you know this, but that’s actually a really offensive thing to say.” I like that, because it doesn’t come off as bitchy (which I lean toward too easily). It does open up the doors for a discussion, if that’s something I decided I wanted to engage in. Thanks!

        1. Alma*

          Perhaps, “That statement is offensive on so many levels.” This could even be preceeded by the flat “Wow.”

      2. Bekx*

        +1, I have a feeling the manager didn’t realize how offensive she was being. It sounds like she was just trying to be funny and really, really failed.

        1. Windchime*

          I dunno, a lot of people mask cruel, unkind statements as “jokes”. It sounds to me like she was indeed comparing being gay to bestiality, which is outrageously unkind at the very least.

          1. Snoskred*

            I don’t know, maybe I am reading it wrong, but when I read the initial post I thought the boss was making an argument in favour of gay marriage, and was trying to say that states which did not have gay marriage probably allowed bestiality. So that could read as the boss trying to “put down” of states which do not allow gay marriage rather than comparing gay marriage to bestiality.

            Perhaps Anie could clarify on this point because I do think the two possible ways of reading this are very different things and should result in two quite different reactions. :)

    7. Allison Mary*

      I think I would’ve had the same reaction of silence/disbelief the first time I heard that comment. But if I had time to go sit and think about it, I would prepare myself next time to say something like, “I’m pretty uncomfortable with this. Would it be possible to keep our focus more on work-related topics?”

    8. C Average*

      My boss also sometimes shares astonishing (and, to me, cringe-worthy) observations and opinions.

      I’ve taken to simply not engaging when this happens.

      On the rare occasions when she’s asked me what I think or why I’m not responding, I’ve just said something like, “Political talk at work makes me uncomfortable, so I’m trying to steer clear.”

      So far, this approach hasn’t met with any opposition, though the unpleasant observations continue. At least I’m not expected to participate, though.

      If I cared about her at all, I’d maybe consider it worth it to change her mind. But she’s not worth it.

    9. Future Analyst*

      I actually think your response was perfect. You’re not trying to engage her in a conversation about why what she said was horrible (ugh, I can’t even imagine), you’re just leaving the conversation. In the future, if you can tell that she’s about to start a conversation about similar topics, you can say “I would not like to discuss this” and walk away. Typically, people like this are not open to hearing opinions that conflict with their own, so I wouldn’t try to change her mind on anything, but you can certainly refuse to engage in these types of conversations. And if she continues to seek you out for conversations like this, repeatedly tell her that you would not like to discuss religion/politics/etc. at work. If she continues, respectfully tell her that she’s making you uncomfortable. Beyond that, it becomes something you need to tell HR. You certainly don’t have to bring your own sexual orientation into the conversation– these comments would make anyone decent uncomfortable, regardless of their orientation.

      Also, I’m so sorry that you work with someone like this.

      1. Rat Racer*

        Yes – I agree here. It’s really tricky when it’s your boss and not your co-worker. It can truly backfire if you make her feel like she said something politically offensive (even though that’s one of the most offensive things I’ve ever heard of a manager saying).

    10. Creag an Tuire*

      Y’know, that’s the first time I’ve heard an opinion on marriage equality that manages to be mind-bogglingly offensive to both sides of the argument. So… props, I guess?

    11. Labyrinthine*

      Oh my lord.

      My response to reading that was to stare at my screen in shock. She actually said that!?

      For this (and so many other) reason, I am a big proponent of not discussing politics, religion or civil rights issues in the work place (unless, of course, that is your line of work). Because there is always that person that thinks they are saying something nice, but in reality is being wildly offensive to anyone with a sense of common decency.

      When it comes up I usually say directly “You know, I really don’t like discussing these things at work. It often seems to upset people” and then redirect “Do you have a moment to go over [insert work issue, project, recent email, policy, process, etc] now?”

    12. Cubicle Joe*

      One of the biggest problems in our society is the belief that if you supposedly have the “high ground” on an issue, then you can say whatever you want and no one has the right to question you. Liberals and conservatives are equally guilty of it.

      In situations like that, I usually say something nebulous like “how about that” or “it certainly is an interesting topic”.

      Some people feel the need to constantly pick at you about social issues, and if you don’t join in with an equal amount of outrage, then they often assume that you disagree with them. In reality, I’m just trying to get away from them.

      1. hildi*

        “In situations like that, I usually say something nebulous like “how about that” or “it certainly is an interesting topic”.”

        Love this

    13. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      To me, “I see what your saying” implies agreement, at least to some degree, which might encourage her to keep talking – it sounds sort of…supportive. Other commenters have good ideas for alternatives for the shocking stuff. If you are looking for a day-to-day neutral phrase, I might go with “sounds like you feel strongly about that” or “huh” or “oh. + [comment about weather, etc,].

      2. TheSockMonkey*

        Yeah, you want to be careful about responding in a way that makes her or anyone nearby think you agree.

        (I have had that come back to bite me before)

    14. DL*

      I had a somewhat similar situation recently in a car with few of external colleagues. The rest of the group thought it was hilarious and clever that one’s straight son responded to a query of whether he was gay with “yes, I’m a lesbian stuck in a boy’s body”. I thought about pointing out that this would mean he’s trans, and that’s not a joke. In the end I held my tongue because I didn’t know these people at all.

      1. jamlady*

        I come from a line of rural small-town folk and then half of my mom’s side of the family started coming out with my mom’s generation. I grew up learning ways to politely inform people when a mistake is made without coming off as rude or preachy. That being said, it’s so hard to pull it off in a professional capacity. I try to stay out of it unless someone is being downright hateful. The situation you were in was kind of rough. They honestly may not have known about the reality of the child’s response, but then again would have informing them of it really done anything but make the car ride uncomfortable? Sigh. If the child’s response was serious, they’ll figure it out eventually I guess. Sorry :/ rough situation!

    15. A Non*

      If you think she’s the type to take a hint, you can pointedly redirect the conversation. “So how ’bout them Yankees?” said in a completely flat tone of voice is a time honored one. Or any other change of topic will do. How well it works depends how clueful she is and how much she wants to avoid offending you.

      You have all my sympathies. What a… wow.

      1. Alma*

        I like that one, especially because it is one of those obvious, cliche’d, change the topic statement. And say it with a flat, emotionless tone.

    16. MsM*

      If you don’t want to call her out: “You know, I don’t think I’m the right audience for this discussion. Can we get back to [work-related topic]?”

      If want to be a little clearer that this is not okay: “I don’t think this is an appropriate discussion for work.” Or “I disagree with that strongly, but I don’t think debating it will accomplish anything productive. Why don’t we just stay off this topic from now on? [Rewind and pick the conversation back up at the last point where you were comfortable.]”

      Or “Wow.” “Wow” works. And if that fails, then go to HR.

    17. Phlox*

      Voicing your concerns, as mentioned above, sound like a good way. I might try using wow myself. Recently tried the incredulous eye brow raise face to a coworker when he asked me if I knew how the sun moved in the sky. It clearly failed to translate because he proceeded to explain.

      2. Clever Name*

        Man. I’d be tempted to argue with them and say that it’s actually Helios on his golden chariot that is pulled by horses across the sky. ;)

        I had a coworker say something rude to me, and I just raised my eyebrows in response. Luckily she realized how she sounded, but it sounds like she is savvier than your coworker.

    18. Hermoine Granger*

      I’ve had similar experiences with two bosses that would make socially inappropriate comments.

      The first boss made a joke to me about another co-workers weight and I was so caught off guard (as he’d never said anything like that before) that I could only manage to look at him in puzzled amazement. He never made another comment along those lines to me again.

      The second boss was just a socially awkward jerk and would make inappropriate comments all the time. Others in the office had gotten quite used to him being this way so they would laugh it off and change the subject. I made the mistake of doing the same when I first started there thinking it would ease the awkwardness. However, when I realized that this was just feeding his behavior I made it a point to not try to laugh it off and would instead not reply and allow the silence to linger. He continued joking in that way with the other staff but eventually got the point and stopped doing it with me.

    19. Anie*

      On the flip side, I do have pleasant interactions with people at my work. One of my closer co-workers recently got moved to the other side of the office. I’m not normally one to complain (joke) but this morning I came in with a slight cold and wasn’t feeling happy. After suffering through him and his new desk-mates having a grand morning together, I may have mentioned to him how much I hated hearing him bond with them. Mentioned it—at length. Loudly. Cause now I’m all left out, you know?

      Him and his new friends bought me a get-well card, signed: “The other side of the office.”

    20. Not So NewReader*

      “I really don’t want to talk about that type of stuff at work. If someone over hears the conversation they could file a complaint.”

      OR

      “Oh, don’t go there. Look, we have some stuff here that needs immediate attention. Here is x, y and z.”
      (I like this one because you are telling her point blank not to discuss these topics with you- she will figure that out later because this is a “hit and run” statement. You hit it, then run to the next topic.)

      OR
      “I try not to get involved in topics like that. I find that they zap my energy and emotions if I do it too much.”
      (I like this one, too, because it’s true for me.)

    21. Christine*

      I think you should be direct and say that comments like that are entirely inappropriate in the workplace. Put her on notice that the behavior will not be tolerated. And start keeping notes of dates and times because I fear that this could turn into a lawsuit for the company at some point in time and you may be called as a witness.

    22. Anon369*

      Ha. My boss routinely makes comments like this. I’ve found unless the person gets reprimanded, and hard, from above, it won’t change, and there’s little I can do to stop it. I still side-eye or point out that it’s harmful, because I have the political capital/tenure to do so, and other people on the team may not.

    23. BeenThere*

      I’m so sorry you had to hear those comments – regardless of whatever your orientation is, to say that at work is awful. My coworker turned manager would say things like this regularly, among the also occasional racist remark. As friends with and deeply regarded as “invaluable” by HR (we reported up through them). It went on for my entire employment and I’d told my manager but was scared to go to an actual HR and didn’t want to be “outed” if make this employee angry (everyone was sorta scared of them and heir comments were so out there and frequent everyone just sorta accepted it). Despite my protest my manager did go to HR who said they didn’t need to do anything. After that person became my manager I went to them directly with my concerns within a couple days of their promotion. Their response was people say offensive stuff in the office all the time. Fired three weeks later (without any issue through my tenure).

      Despite my bad luck… I echo what other people have said here about direct confrontation. Your reactions were similar to mine. If the comment had relevance to something work related I may have said “Sorry that happened” or “that’s weird”. I think this person was sorta tone def when it came to shame or any sense of discomfort. But who knows!!! Anyway, you have both my sympathy and empathy. I never got to hear gay marriage compared to “sheep sleep” but I was informed gays are all pedophiles. Educational.

    24. hapax legomenon*

      Is this really a battle that you need to fight?

      People say stupid shit. It’s different for everyone, and I’m not 100% consistent on this, but I find the concept of imposing my will upon another person to prevent them from speaking a lot more offensive than the stupid stuff that comes out of their mouths.

    25. BeckyDaTechie*

      13, actually, with no restrictions on that kind of animal abuse. *smdh* But to compare that to humans getting married may well be “talk to HR” behavior. I won’t be of much help with wording because I usually respond with “I don’t care to hear someone else’s religious or political opinions at work. Can we change the subject, or should we continue a work-oriented conversation later?” long before someone reaches that point. (Incidentally, I often burn bridges by being too bluntly honest, but some people don’t get to cultivate common sense before they reach adulthood and need reminders now and then.)

      I’m so sorry you’re in this situation. I hope you’ll keep us posted and that it resolves for the better?

  2. C Average*

    I’ve been waiting for this!

    There have been a couple of letters recently that highlighted the fact that people can do well in a lot of workplaces despite not having strong writing skills.

    And it’s a truth pretty much universally acknowledged that many, many starving writers are currently making lattes and wishing they had a job that put their writing skills to better use.

    Do you think that good writing is valued sufficiently in your workplace? Why or why not? Why do you think so many organizations don’t place a high value on good writing as a basic requirement of every position?

    1. Anie*

      I’ve never worked with people who don’t have good writing skills. But then I work in publishing….

      1. bridget*

        Same – my industry demands it. For the most part, one is just not a good lawyer unless one has very strong writing skills (there may be some exceptions for specific types of lawyers, like patent lawyers or something, but I wouldn’t really know). It’s 90% of the job, or more.

        1. attornaut*

          You would think that, yes. Then you read some of the emails that I get from fellow attorneys and realize that apparently that’s not a required skill.

        2. Stephanie*

          Depends on the patent lawyer. You do have to be able to explain the invention the novelty (or lack of novelty if you’re suing) behind it, but I definitely read some poorly written applications.

    2. Enjay*

      It’s not necessary to be a good writer in many positions. IT is a prime example. Technical skills are more highly valued than communication skills. A writer might be starving at the coffee shop, but she wouldn’t be able to translate her talents into an IT position.

      1. Future Analyst*

        I really disagree with this. If you cannot communicate (in any field, IT and engineering included), you cannot truly be good at your job, unless your job requires zero interaction with others. Your ideas and solutions are only as good as their implementation, and implementation of a good idea will require communicating with others about it.

        Also, as someone who studied English and is now working in database administration, I respectfully disagree that writing skills don’t translate into IT. If anything, if you’re already practiced in getting your point across in a clear and concise manner, you’re well prepared for working with systems that require very clear and concise inputs.

        1. JB*

          I agree. But I think we all agree that the skills needed to succeed in writing a novel aren’t the same as needed to do technical writing. I think sometimes people think that communication skills aren’t important in some fields because we tend to think of communication skills as something that’s only a subset of communication skills.

          I don’t think that was clear, and I do write for a living, but my brain is done for the week.

        2. Bunny*

          Perhaps, but there’s a big difference between the kind of writing skill that someone working in IT etc might need compared to the kind of writing skill someone who considers themselves a *good writer* is thinking of.

          I’m a good writer, when I try to be. I can create elegant prose, and my work has been published more than once. But that’s really meaningless in my current job, although writing emails is a large part of it. Because “You are unable to log in because your account was deactivated. I have reactivated your account and reset your password to *****. Please refer to your local administrator regarding the issue with your access permissions.” requires basically decent spelling and grammar, but not much else.

          And even then, I’m sometimes shocked by the quality of emails we receive from our customers, who all work in the prestigious Chocolate Teapot Insurance industry, where you’d expect things like precise communication to be vital. And yet so many emails we receive are something like “Page is wrong and I cannot read document. This is SERIOUS because I canNOT do my work UNTIL it is fixed please make it work right NOW.” Half a dozen emails later and it turns out they’re talking about having forgotten to install adobe acrobat on their personal laptop that they shouldn’t even be using to work from home in the first place.

      2. Mad Non Hatter*

        I have to agree with Future Analyst. As a professional in IT (specifically software development), I do admit that I am surrounded by people with a wide range of communication skills. But being able to clearly communicate a concept, explain an issue or write clear documentation really makes the difference between being considered adequate and being exemplary. I’m not saying that the poorer communicators are considered inferior, but they are less likely to be approached and more likely to be considered individuals rather than team members.

        Also when working with some of the code that these people write, it comes across as difficult to read and lacking adequate documentation as to what it does.

        1. QAT Contractor*

          YUP! I end up testing all that code you write, and while I don’t specifically see the code usually, if people don’t write well, there can be big differences in understanding what the expected results of an action should be.

          There are some entry level people that can just read and do, but they usually don’t last long or aren’t given tasks that are more important, if they require documentation. If all an individual wants to do is sit around and run tests that someone else wrote forever then writing isn’t as critical, even when they find a defect, because they can copy paste from a good tests to covey the defect.

          Good writing skills are quite essential in the IT field for people who want to move up and on to better tasks/roles as a team player rather than just being some person they assign menial tasks to all the time.

      3. Jen*

        My husband works in IT. He was fortunate to get an associate in journalism but then got his bachelor’s degree in programming. He’s a fantastic writer and it’s helped him in all of his jobs as an IT professional. At his current job when they have to document things, he’s always telling me how poorly written the document that people contribute to is.

        He mentioned that even basic words are misspelled or not used correctly. Often times he has coworkers approach him and ask him to proof something they’ve written to make sure they sound as clear and concise as possible.

        So I definitely think no matter what field you’re in, excellent communications/writing is needed.

      4. VintageLydia USA*

        My husband works in enterprise IT and he spends fully half his working hours writing, both reports internally and externally. If he weren’t a talented business writer AND very good at IT, he wouldn’t be able to do his job.

    3. matcha123*

      The places I’ve worked at say that value quality writing, but I don’t think they know what quality writing is. The biggest reason is that my co-workers, and the people who check my work, are not native English speakers and have spent limited time overseas. They don’t want well-written pieces as much as they want me to force English to fit with their limited knowledge of the language.

      No one wants to say they don’t care about writing because the written word is one of the pillars of a civilized society. At the same time, many people don’t read enough or write enough or care enough to put effort into improving the quality of the work they put out to the public.

      1. Beezus*

        I think you touched on a really good point there. In jobs where writing skill is important, the type of skill that matters can vary. I would say I’m a good writer, but I am good at writing very detailed information in a way that is well-organized and easy to follow. I think I would be good at the type of writing your workplace values, as well – I’ve worked with ESL people before, and I’m quick to pick up the vocabulary level and phrasing style someone is comfortable with and communicating at that level. However, I tend to write with the object of answering all of someone’s logical questions in one go before they ask them, so I would struggle in a capacity where being very concise was important; and while my grammar, spelling, and punctuation are pretty good, I’m too rusty in those areas to be able to step right into a role where I’d be editing for formal publication.

      2. LQ*

        It doesn’t matter how well written something is if no one understands it so I have to say I’m kind of with your coworkers on this. Especially if they are the audience, or your audience contains people with limited English.

        Communication is about someone else understanding what you said, it doesn’t happen in a vacuum.

        1. matcha123*

          In our case, the majority of our recipients are native English speakers. The problem I face when I translate is bad writing in the original; I don’t want to pass it on to my English translation, but I have to stay faithful to the original. Coworkers want translations that sound natural, but don’t want to budge on unnatural phrases.
          Conversations inevitably follow the same pattern:
          “Could you check this letter the Chairman wrote? We’re sending it to High Level Official.”
          “Well, you should take out these sentences and rewrite these ones.”
          “The Chairman really wants to use those phrases. Can you just make it sound natural?”
          “Uh. OK… Take out this ‘the’ and rearrange this…”
          “We can’t do that. Does it sound fine the way it is? We shouldn’t change anything.”
          “I mean…you could use this phrase if you wanted to… It’s not common. But, if that’s what you want…”
          “Great, thanks!”
          ” :'( “

          1. Beezus*

            Ouch. It sounds like they’re uncomfortable with changing something someone in authority wrote, or are uncomfortable sending out writing attributed to them that isn’t in their own voice, perhaps? Is it possible that you’re misinterpreting the extent that you’re expected to improve the quality of the pieces you review? Are you supposed to make them sound like a native English speaker wrote them, or are you just there to avoid major gaffes like the famed “Nothing Sucks Like Electrolux” ads? If it’s the former, they’re not really letting you do your job, and you should push back. If you’re just there to avoid major snafus and miscommunication, though, you might have to let go on phrasing choices.

            1. matcha123*

              It’s like what JB below wrote; my coworkers (in all of the jobs I’ve held here) want natural, “perfect” and high-quality English. But, this sentence can’t be changed. Oh, and that phrase is absolutely necessary, so if it’s grammatically incorrect we *should* change it, but if the grammar is fine, can’t we keep it???

              I also translate from Japanese to English and I have a lot of my work re-written. I’ve noticed how it’s influencing my writing outside of work, ie- the quality has definitely slipped, and I’m trying to do what I can to bring myself up to a satisfactory level.

              I’ve noticed shoddy English from large companies, like Sony, in their user manuals. I assume they are crowdsourcing their translations rather than having someone “in-house” do them.

          2. JB*

            I have heard complaints about this from people who work in corporate offices in South Korea. They have coworkers who ask them to proofread marketing material, but what they really want is to use phrases that have come to be business buzzwords there but sound weird to native English speakers. They have pretty much exactly the conversations you’ve described.

            The frustrating thing isn’t that their coworkers are using phrases that don’t make sense in English. They don’t care about that because native and fluent English speakers aren’t the target audience, and it’s the kind of phrases that will sound good to the target audience. The frustrating part is that they get asked to proofread when what is wanted isn’t really proofreading, it’s telling them what they want to hear.

            1. matcha123*

              That’s how it is in Japan, too!
              “No, ‘Let’s Getting Now!!!’ is not acceptable.”
              “But that’s what it says in Japanese.”
              “Yeah…no…”
              “Oh, we can’t use ‘-ing’ here, how is ‘Let’s Get Now!!!’?”
              “That’s not better. What are we getting?”
              “We don’t want to say.”
              “Well, you need to say.”
              “This grammar is wrong? [insert technical explanation of English grammar here]”
              “How about [phrase that sounds like something resembling English]?”
              “That’s too long. The boss likes the original, so we should use that.”
              “:/”

    4. Foxtrot*

      Unfortunately, engineers as a whole have horrible writing skills…at least the ones I’ve come across. While writing would be nice, it’s much more important that you have the technical chops. Bad emails don’t come with lawsuits – bad bridges do.

      1. AnotherAlison*

        Actually bad emails due too, in the construction business anyway. That’s why we have email archiving software. eDiscovery is a big deal in construction claim litigation.

    5. HeyNonnyNonny*

      I am a technical writer and editor. I think that more companies are learning that good writing is important, but they’re also learning that they can have subject matter experts generate content and then have a good writer work as an editor and clean it up– which is what I do. I’m in a very technical field, and it makes a lot of sense to me. The engineers get to focus on their primary work, and I make sure that internal and external communications actually make sense.

      1. CH*

        Sounds like you and I have basically the same job. I clean up the writing of 8 people who are technical experts. I can’t do what they do and they may be able, but don’t really try, to do what I do.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        I do the cleaning up part. I couldn’t do the job my consultants do, mainly because I don’t have a background in the industry, but I write well enough to make their reports look pretty. :)

    6. Laurel Gray*

      In my work place, I don’t know but I will say that I do have a short list of “f****** idiots” based on how they communicate via email. I stayed out of the comments yesterday about email communication because I have strong opinions on what I think that our smart phones and social media are doing to our basic writing skills. I think these days people make waaaay too many excuses for others’ lack of basic writing skills.

      I think orgs don’t place a high value on good writing because I think essentially, depending on the position, they feel like as long as the person can get by with whatever shotty skills they have., it is okay.

      1. LQ*

        The people who are worst at my org are the people who pride themselves on not having smart phones. So I’m not sure I agree. I think some people with smart phones are great, some aren’t. Some people with flip phones or no phones are great, some aren’t.

    7. Jennifer*

      As a person who used to write for a living, I do NOT think good writing is valued in most fields. Writers are easily the most disposable people at any job….which is why I don’t write for a living any more. (You don’t know how badly I wince when my coworkers send out half-readable, misspelled, all lower case, grammatically terrible e-mails to the entire list.)

      Why aren’t writers valued? I can’t really say for sure, but it’s probably for the same reasons that English majors, artists, etc. aren’t valued in life. They’re expendable, they don’t bring in tons of money, they have “soft skills.” Most writers, artists, creatives, etc. don’t bring in money in the way that a salesperson does, or keep things going in the way that programmers/techies do, and don’t have whopping amounts of powers like managers, etc. A writer is essentially a clerical worker, and nobody cares about those people.

      I consider myself very lucky compared to my former coworkers because I got the boot from my writing job in 2001 and was able to get into my current industry a few months later. Now virtually all of them are freelancing and scrambling, from what I’ve heard. And I’m talking about my supervisors, not just the professional writers.

      1. HeyNonnyNonny*

        My theory is that writers aren’t valued because everyone thinks, “Well, I use English all the time, of course I’m good at it!”

        Yeah, buddy, I drive a car every day, that doesn’t mean I can fix it.

      2. Lore*

        Although as a counterpoint: I work in publishing, where of course good writing is valued. But there’s also been this weird divide between the amount of copyediting, proofreading, etc that we do on our books, and the sort of ad hoc way internal communications are handled. I’ve recently been asked to edit a number of corporate communications in various contexts, and everyone involved has a little lightbulb go off when they get back the polished versions and see what a difference a good edit makes, and how much easier it is to read polished writing–especially when you’re talking about documents that go out, say, to all our authors, or go on a public website.

      3. Alma*

        Ages ago, when small stones were used for currency, I was recruited into a large bank’s management program because I could write well. This was pre-computer, and though I did my rotation through credit analysis, was able to take their work and present a well-thought-out, concise, loan presentation for the Loan Committee. Yes, I am an English Major…

      4. Anx*

        Also, many people are good, but not great writers and can do something else very well. I imagine it’s easy to cut down on writing staff when other workers can cover the tasks almost (but not quite) as well.

    8. IT Kat*

      I work in IT, and for a consulting company – for that reason, yes good writing is valued (we are working at a lot of clients and are the face of our company, so they want to make sure that we present a good impression!). But at the same time – if there was a choice between good writing and tech knowledge, we’re going to hire for the knowledge. You can be a best-selling novelist, but that doesn’t mean you’ll be able to fix a client’s $30k corporate application gone wrong.

    9. Future Analyst*

      Ugh. This is one of my biggest complaints about the current environment in which I’m working– no-one cares about proper grammar, punctuation, and general flow of their communication. There’s generally a sense of “who cares” about those things, and I’m embarrassed about what goes out sometimes. Between the individuals who write our dept. policy manuals to our customer-facing clerks, the writing is just badly done and looks childish. I suspect part of it is that the pool of individuals who work in this field are generally not motivated to go above and beyond, and since the higher ups write poorly, it just trickles down. I know I’m generally more critical of it than most people (English major, and I used to work as a copyeditor), but simple sentence structure and grammar are not that hard– it shouldn’t be optional!

      Lastly, since we hear more and more about how profitable STEM areas are, and colleges have begun to cut back on the humanities (and writing, in particular) requirements for graduation, it’ll likely become worse and worse. Unfortunately, unless companies start putting a premium on excellent communication skills (the way that they do for certifications), there will be less incentive for anyone to really hone their writing skills.

      1. Jennifer*

        I get to see communications from STEM students that are downright kinda illiterate. I keep thinking “you have to have taken at least a few English classes here, really….” But then again, I doubt anyone cares so much or wants to learn and if they pass, whatever.

        I had one English professor in college right at the end of my college career who said she could REALLY teach me to write academically if I wanted….but it was one of my last English classes ever and I had no intention of going to grad school so I declined.

      2. Anx*

        I was a STEM student. I actually hope the humanities requirements become more flexible. In my program, pre-requisite requirements could prevent you from taking classes until your junior or senior year. I ended up having to drop a critical elective (very central to my program) to take even more humanities after my graduation audit. I had already taken 5 English classes (2 required), political science, two sociology classes, two humanities/letters classes, two writing classes, some psychology classes, and I’m sure some other humanities (or at least non-stem) classes.

        I’d rather schools be flexible in giving credits for specific gen ed requirements than keep the requirements so rigid that students have no room to explore minors or secondary interests.

    10. AnotherAlison*

      I work in engineering and construction. Poor communication skills, including both written and verbal, will keep you from advancing at some point, but when we are hiring anything below a lead engineer, writing is definitely less important than your technical skills. We would like everyone to be the total package, but sometimes you just need butts in chairs to do the technical work.

      Once you’re at the level where you are working with clients directly, you need to be able to write, but in our typical emails, no one is going to get too spun up about messing up a tricky verb/subject agreement. I do have a coworker with hillbilly grammar–written and verbal–and most of his work has to be run through someone else to make sure we don’t look bad to outside contacts. Most people who struggle with this will work with an admin assistant or proposal writer to make sure anything important is well written.

    11. Stephanie*

      I was in engineering, where it was always a plus if you could write well. It definitely wasn’t a requirement (at least at the lower levels, IME).

      In the more info science/legal jobs I had, they claimed they wanted good writing skills, but we had to be trained to write things in a specific way as avoid any ambiguities or we used form paragraphs. I wouldn’t say that was exactly good writing, either. It took me a while to shake a few years of legal writing off.

      1. RG*

        Hi Stephanie! If you don’t mind my asking, can you go into more detail about the info science/legal jobs you’ve had? I have an engineering degree and jumped straight into patent prosecution, but I’d like to know more about other jobs that include a focus on technical writing. If you’d prefer to talk about this through email or another means of communication rather than posting more specific information here, then please let me know!

        1. Stephanie*

          Sure, happy to! I think the details might be a little *too* in the weeds for the comments here, so send me an email when you get a chance: stephanie dot m dot jennings at gmail dot com.

    12. LBK*

      I think good writing is undervalued in general because people don’t realize how much of a talent it is. It’s more than just knowing grammar rules; it’s about phrasing, tone, gauging your audience, and a whole bunch of other intangible, generally unteachable traits. It’s assumed too often that the majority of professional workers have the skills to be good writers, but I think it’s a much lower percentage than that.

      As such, I think many employers settle for adequate writing instead of great writing, because a) great writers are hard to find, and b) companies don’t even know how to find them because they assume anyone who’s done a job that required any kind of writing is probably a good writer. The screening process is too lax for that skill.

    13. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I’ve always worked in places where good writing was valued and highly rewarded. Although now that I think about it, all of those places have been run by people who were good writers themselves, and I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a connection there. Also, places that value good writing tend to know how hard it is to find it, which then leads them to value it even more. (I’m not talking here about technically competent writing, but about good writing beyond that — voice, style, flow.)

      1. gloria*

        This makes sense to me! I think if you have a certain sensitivity to language, it comes out in your own writing (even in emails and memos, which was honestly a surprise to me – this sounds kind of snotty but I don’t think I realized I was a good writer outside of an academic context until I entered the working world and learned how many ways highly educated adults can craft awkward, stilted sentences), and it also lets you appreciate the same quality in others. If language is purely functional to you, your own writing likely won’t be anything special, nor will you necessarily pick up on that “extra something” in others.

        I’m currently in a writing-based position at a young company, and I’m one of the only employees who doesn’t do any admin/HR stuff, but my boss – who’s not much of a writer – has asked me to evaluate other people’s writing samples in a way that suggested he really didn’t trust his own ability to gauge the quality of writing (they were very short), which was very strange to me but makes sense when I think about it in this context.

      2. little Cindy Lou who*

        I agree. Managers I’ve worked for who value good communication have appreciated my writing skills (even to the point of tasking me to write up how a change in policy impacts our team and what we need to do to be in compliance). But one who loved the written word and would obsess over wording in his work really enjoyed and appreciated what I would write (logs, emails, etc). And these were accounting and finance teams, so being crystal clear definitely makes a difference.

    14. Mockingjay*

      I am a technical writer. I could give you chapter and verse why writing skills are so important. And I am willing to bet my next meager paycheck that behind those people is someone like me cleaning up their work.

      In my industry, the boss or customer sees only the end product, signed off by the lead engineer. What is often not known, is that I did the all data analysis, wrote the entire document, then ran it by the engineer for his (cursory) approval.

      Recently though, I had the opportunity to work on some documents directly for the customer. They were amazingly appreciative and emailed a number of glowing compliments to my boss. Boss was completely surprised; however, he still has me on “office housekeeping” tasks because he just doesn’t get that I have a vast technical background…but that’s another thread.

    15. jhhj*

      I would say that we value good writing, but don’t expect it from most of our employees. That is never their main job, so when we need something written carefully, we have a consultant. Not that our other employees are typically BAD writers, but the writing in their jobs is so minor that we would never use it as a plus or a minus in hiring decisions (this means we are very forgiving with CVs, too).

    16. AdAgencyChick*

      It is STUNNING to me how many people who work in advertising — a communications field! — write poorly. Even some copywriters produce sentences that I can’t call good English.

      I have no good explanation for this. I just hate it!

      1. LMW*

        Yes! I am continually astonished by how much we pay our agencies for crappy writing. I am willing to pay my star writers a ton because they actually deliver quality in less time than the cheaper writers. (Seriously, I pay one of my writers $100 an hour. She’s worth it. I want to be her when I grow up.)

      2. CH*

        There are a couple of ads in regular play on local radio that just make my ears bleed! I can’t believe that any copywriter could have written them; I’m guessing they came straight from the business owner’s desk.

      3. Myrin*

        I had that same feeling regarding lawyers and – most recently – tax accountants. It wasn’t “bad” writing in that the meaning wasn’t clear but there were some absolutely appalling spelling mistakes. I mean, I’m getting my Master’s in German (which is my mothertongue and the language the mentioned documents were in) so I might be a tad too extreme and nitpicky when it comes to the written word but PLEASE.

    17. LMW*

      I spent the first half of my career in publishing and I was shocked when I moved to the corporate world and realized how many people can’t write a coherent sentence. I still make my living from writing and editing and it takes a long time for people to recognize that I actually provide a lot of value to the company. When I started in my current role, I worked with a lot of engineers and there was a real sentiment that anyone can do writing or marketing (you don’t need to be smart or have extensive training). It was only when people began to see the extensive editing I was doing to their documents that I started getting some respect.

    18. mdv*

      Good writing is not valued that highly “in my workplace”, but *my* good writing skills (and editing, etc) are highly valued — I know that because I got assigned to the university’s master planning project to help with the final two rounds of editing the entire master plan, not just hte parts relevant to my department, and nearly all of my changes were implemented in the final document.

    19. Anon For This...*

      I’m kind of surprised to see IT mentioned as a field where writing skills aren’t needed. I GENTLY disagree with that. :)

      Maybe my particular organization is different than most (software developers are embedded in the business units they support instead of being centralized), but I spend a lot of time communicating. It’s obviously extremely important to fix a critical bug in a production system…but it’s almost as important to be able to communicate to the directors what caused the issue, what the impacts were, how we fixed it, and how we’re going to prevent it from happening again!

      1. Windchime*

        Yes, I have to agree. I work on a BI team and there is a very clear divide between the team members who are able to communicate clearly and effectively, and those who are not. It’s great to be able to write code, but if you can’t do the documentation or communicate what you’ve done to the end users, it’s of limited use.

        It’s funny; we’ve got one person on our team whose native language is not English. Usually, his/her emails consist of “Yes” or “No” or “it’s done”. But recently, s/he was very upset over a situation and s/he sent out a beautifully crafted, very well written email that really kind of told us all off! I was very impressed; it’s not that s/he is unable to communicate in writing, s/he just chooses not to!

    20. Chriama*

      Because there’s a large difference between ‘acceptable’ writing and ‘good’ or ‘great’ writing.

      Going from poor to acceptable is mostly a matter of knowing and following the rules (basic grammar, starting emails with a greeting, etc). In verbal communication, our brains re-write the message as it enters our ears so that it makes sense. Written communication, doesn’t have that advantage, so going from acceptable to good requires an intuitive understanding of written communication that most people will never develop.

      Therefore, while many people can recognize great writing when they see it, most people can’t actually go from acceptable writing to great writing.

    21. puddin*

      My workplace does not value adept writing skills. It might be valued in some specific departments, but overall communication skills are not reinforced here.

      I will have to leave it at that as I getting hives thinking about how this negatively effects so many aspects of everyone’s jobs.

    22. squids*

      Sometimes I feel like the token “good writer” in my workplace. I’m regularly given other peoples’ work to proofread. I try not to mind as long as it stays occasional, but …

    23. Emme*

      I worked as an admin in a nonprofit, and was promoted to an analyst position based on my strong writing skills. It’s not a talent I was ever aware of- I thought I had average writing skills, and I don’t actually like the process of writing as I find it very stressful- but I somehow managed to impress my boss.

    24. SLG*

      I think it very much depends on how you define good writing. I’m a writer/editor, with a background in publishing and corporate communications, now working for an in-house marketing team. Maybe it’s that working in publishing has made me optimistic in some ways and cynical in others. But I tend to think that in a business context, “good writing” is defined as writing that gets the results you want.

      For instance, there are situations where a proposal that could use several more rounds of editing (it’s wordy, clumsy, poorly organized) wins the contract anyway. I don’t like that it is that way, but I can’t really argue with it unless I can demonstrate that a better-written proposal would bring the company more income.

      In other contexts, writing that’s tight, clever, and brilliantly persuasive really is necessary to achieve business objectives (getting blog traffic, getting website visitors to make a purchase, persuading a client to give you a corporate communications contract, etc.).

      So I think it all really depends on what you’re trying to achieve!

      1. literateliz*

        Thisthisthis. As someone whose job it is to worry about grammar (and who spent a good 15 minutes arguing about colons and commas at work yesterday), I’m surprised at how often I find myself falling on the “well, as long as it gets things done” side of this debate. Especially in terms of emails. I mentioned in another comment that one of the most brilliant bosses I’ve had, a longtime editor who had an uncanny ability to make my various pitches and press releases shine with a few strokes of a pen, sent emails along the lines of “pls pitch for valendtines day – tx!” (These were to me, an intern–I imagine her emails to prospective authors were a bit more polished.) Other people in the office joked about helping me decode her emails, but after a small learning curve on my part, those emails did get things done.

        1. fposte*

          I think that’s true with a lot of knowledge, though–there’s an hourglass shape to the pattern of attention or reverence you give to a subject. You start out not knowing or caring, and then in school you know more and care more and more about doing it right, and that peaks about the end of high school when you’re at your narrowest view of what’s acceptable; college, grad school, working in writing, all move you increasingly away from prescriptivism and more toward “Eh, it’s a house style” or “Eh, usage is always more variable than rules suggest” (or “Eh, I’ve done that all day and now I just want to watch cartoons”).

          1. Jen RO*

            This such a good observation, and it would have never occurred to me (my mind was a little blown when I read your reply). In my case, I went through all these steps while learning my current job (tech writing) and I’m now at the ‘eh, we don’t need to follow this rule *all* the time’ stage. The Language Log and Chicago’s Q&A section had a lot to do with my learning to relax…

    25. Retail Lifer*

      The higher-ups at several companies I’ve worked for have had terrible communication skills and not much of an understanding of grammar and punctuation. It’s incredibly frustrating to read an email from someone who makes at least twice what I do (AT LEAST!) and have to read through all of their glaring errors. At the last company I worked for, the person in charge of corporate communications told me that her position existed primarily to fix what these executives wrote before it was sent out to the masses. My grammar and proof-reading skills could use some work, but jeez. I don’t require a full-time employee to translate for me.

    26. Beancounter in Texas*

      tl;dr – I like how much basic writing skills have come to the foreground of importance with the advent of social media. (Per Weird Al’s point in his song “Word Crimes.”)

    27. Traveler*

      Nope. I think to make it, as with many other things, you need writing that is “good enough” or “passable”. Even though we write for the public on a consistent basis in my position, it’s rare that a document for publication wouldn’t pass through 3-5 people for wordsmithing/grammar. So to have one person that excels isn’t very important.

      It’s sad in a way, but I also think there are few people out there that have really exceptional writing abilities, so the combination of abilities spread over 3 people is better than trying to find that one person out there. On the subject of starving writers…I think the problem is you can be a fantastic writer, but lack other very important qualities you need to make it through corporate/nonprofit workforce.

    28. Anony-moose*

      Oh yes, I’d say writing is hugely valued and one of the most important skills I have. Then again, writing is about 75 percent of my job.

      I was just talking with my boyfriend about this. We’re both former English majors, and he even has two advanced degrees in English literature. Now he’s in advertising (copywriter) and i’m in the nonprofit world (grantwriter / corporate relations). I consider us both writers but it’s a far cry from the aspirations of my youth where I imagined myself sitting in a hip coffeeshop writing the Great American Novel or regaling readers with stories of my neurotic family and even more neurotic cat.

      But in the workplace, writing = communication. Being a strong writer is key. I find for me that writing continually makes me a more strategic thinker and more flexible as well. Love what everyone else has to say on the subject too!

    29. Not So NewReader*

      What I am seeing is that places are concerned with the thinking behind the content. Anyone can learn where to put a comma or a period, if they choose. The real kicker is does the content show that thinking is going on?
      I don’t tend to think of incoherent or near incoherent emails as a writing problem . I think it points to a bigger problem in that the person does not know their subject matter. Or it could be that the writer does not give a darn if the reader can figure out what is being said. You can take that person and teach them everything there is to know about punctuation and you are not going to fix the problem.

      Ever open up a law book and read a random page? I have seen lawyers mutter, “What the HELL does this mean?”
      There is a writing style for when you do not want people to know what you just said. And then there is a writing style for when you want everyone to be on the same page.

    30. Elizabeth West*

      To answer your third question I think it’s because they are under the mistaken impression that
      1) anyone can write
      2) that anyone can be taught to write well (no, this is not true for everyone) and that they’ll have the time/patience to teach them (they often don’t)
      3) if you like to write/are really good at it, YOU SHOULD DO IT FOR NOTHING BECAUSE YOU LOVE IT AND IT IS YOUR PASSION (ugh).

      /rant over

      Personally, I subscribe to the Joker’s philosophy: “If you’re good at something, never do it for free!”

    31. MaryMary*

      I think there are a couple things at play here. First, for many positions being a good writer isn’t the primary qualification. “Strong communication skills” might make the top five, but really, the hiring manager is looking for a great salesperson, or a strong coder, or a financial whiz.

      Communication skills are also different from writing skills. Before everyone had a computer and email, someone could hide poor writing skills behind a good assistant. If you’re at a certain level, you still can. Everything our CEO sends is written by one of his assistants or someone else in the office. But he’s a strong public speaker, great one on one, and he’s at a point where he can delegate out writing. We have another VP who had been at the company nearly as long as the CEO, but he isn’t in charge and doesn’t have a dedicated assistant. He sends embarrassing, misspelled, typo-filled emails from his phone, and it’s becoming a resource problem to find people to type up his hand written notes (to say nothing of finding someone to massage those notes into something you could send to a client). He constantly complains about not having dedicated help, but businesses just aren’t staffed that way anymore.

    32. Shell*

      Like many before me have said, “good writing” is a concept that’s pretty hard to pin down, because what’s “good” depends heavily on the context of the writing.

      I write fanfiction as a hobby. According to anonymous reviews on the internet, I’m pretty good at it (though in fairness, fandom culture does strongly skew towards the positive). But I don’t think my business communication skills are anything too noteworthy. I get my point across, more or less, but I certainly don’t think my external and internal emails are amazing. I also write and edit FAQs for a website as a volunteering activity, which polishes up my technical writing abilities a little, but again, I don’t think I write anything amazing.

      I’ve seen some terrible writing for sure, but I think most people in the professional world is pretty much at where I am: solid but unremarkable. And I’d call that “average”–not great, not bad. I certainly don’t consider myself a “strong” writer in the business communication sense, just okay. And most people I’ve met in the working world have met this bar.

    33. Treena Kravm*

      Well, the CEO of our org literally can’t write a coherent email. Anything she sends out to all staff is literally written by the communications director. My boss sometimes emails with her directly and her writing is littered with multiple typos, poor grammar, run-on sentences, to the point where it’s sometimes difficult to understand what she’s trying to say. She’s been working here for 30+ years and isn’t going anywhere.

      If writing is a part of a job, but those skills aren’t valued, it’s usually top-down/dysfunction.

  3. ACA*

    So last week, after I found out I wasn’t advancing to the final round of interviews for a job I really, really thought I had a chance at, I emailed the HR rep back to basically say, “Thanks for letting me know, I look forward to working with whomever you hire, is there anything you think I can do to be a stronger candidate in the future?” If she responded at all, I was expecting her to say something like “We were looking for a candidate with more experience in X/with more background in Y/with a Master’s degree.”

    Instead she told me that my body language was too closed and nervous during the interview, and that the questions I asked weren’t strong enough.

    And I just feel so furious and frustrated. I prepared more for that interview than I ever had for any other, but it was an HR interview, so how was I supposed to ask questions about the office environment? The management style? The day-to-day challenges? I know I could do this job, because I’m in contact with the woman currently covering the job (let’s call her Lucinda) on a regular basis helping her out with the responsibilities. I helped train the previous person in the job on one of the systems we use, and presumably I’ll have to help train the new person. There is so much overlap between my current job and this job.

    Lucinda will be one of the second-round interviewers and has known from the beginning that I was applying for the job, and had told me that I had her full support. When, during one of our many phone calls, I told her I wasn’t being moved forward, she was shocked. At that point she hadn’t gotten a list of final candidates yet from HR, but she said that when she does she’s going to do her best to advocate for me to be added to that list, because (since she is someone who is currently working with me!) she really believes that I’d be a great fit. I don’t know if it will do any good, but it was great to hear.

    I’m assuming that whoever they’re considering for this job instead of me must be some kind of superstar. And since I’ll have to work with that person, I know that it will make my life easier if they’re great at their job. But right now, I’m having a really hard time keeping positive about this.

    1. VictoriaHR*

      UGH – body language and “wrong” questions aren’t a good basis for not moving someone forward in an interview IMO – it’s all about can the person do the job and be a good fit in the role. That HR person sucks.

      1. The IT Manager*

        I think the body language comment or rather the seems NERVOUS comment is actually somewhat useful. It is something ACA can work on and practice preventing since an interview is a very short window to make an impression (for non-internal jobs) and interviewers will rely on body lanaguage to gauage candidates.

      2. Traveler*

        I think there is some merit to it. I know it hurts, because it’s a quality some people never manage to overcome (or at least give the appearance of).

        However, I hired an intern once that was closed off/nervous during an interview. She was exceptionally qualified otherwise though, so I rolled with it, chalking the nervousness up to interview anxiety. We’ve all been there, and I hate the idea of punishing for something we all go through. Unfortunately, when she started she was just as awkward/nervous in the day to day. I heard about it constantly from other employees and since the role she was brought on for was sometimes public facing – I had to prompt her a lot. It made me wish I had taken more cues from the interview.

        1. Lily in NYC*

          I was overruled once – I didn’t want to make an offer to someone because she was so unbelievably timid during her interview. She turned bright pink after every question, whispered her answers, and sat like a rock when we asked if she had questions. Her aunt was our HR director and we were forced to hire her. She ended up being a superstar. It took her a month to warm up, and while she was always a bit reserved, she was incredible at her job and I was sad to see her leave after a couple of years.

          1. Traveler*

            This is what I was hoping for. She was eventually much more open with me on a one-to-one basis, but not outside of that. I think she may have had some social anxiety, which if she was a longer term employee would have been something we could have worked through. As a relatively short term intern I don’t think there was enough time for her to warm up to it.

      3. jamlady*

        My industry involves a lot of dealing with the angry public. You HAVE to be confident and perceptive for this work as well as very knowledgeable of how your company prefers to handle these situations. If you go into an interview in this industry without asking the right questions, they’re going to be nervous that a) you’ve never had to deal with these situations before and therefore didn’t even think to ask and b) that you’re not going to be able to handle a very important part of the job. It’s a weird part too – not something you think about when you’re starting out and definitely not something in job postings. However, it does come with the territory and you have that first interview to show you can handle it.

    2. Judy*

      I find it somewhat odd that HR would be talking with you for an internal position. Whenever I’ve had internal interviews, the hiring manager always was my point of contact to learn about the status of the position. I’ve also heard about the status in person or over the phone, not through email.

      I also find it odd that HR would be giving out the list of final candidates whether it’s internal or external hires. Usually the hiring manager gives the list to HR to contact for interviews, not the other way around. But I’m in engineering, so HR really doesn’t know how to figure out what we need in a role.

      1. sittingduck*

        I know its hard to think about these things from the outside when you are so close to it – but I wouldn’t discount the feedback you did get. I get that you are frustrated because you prepared for this interview and really feel that you are good for this position – but here’s the thing.

        You asked for feedback, and you got it. Just because it wasn’t the feedback you were expecting, that doesn’t mean you should discount it.

        The other candidates who did make it through seemingly had better body language and questions that the HR person felt was appropriate. So while I know its hard to imagine what these questions could have been, it would seem that someone else did have the ‘right’ questions.

        As for the body language, criticism can be hard to take, but I would take a good look at yourself from someone elses perspective to see how they might be seeing you. You may not notice that you are doing things that are offputting to others.

        Use this as a learning experience to take a good critical look at yourself and to improve for next time.

        I am sorry you feel slighted for this promotion. I know it sucks to think you are a sure-in for a second interview and then to find out you didn’t make it.

    3. The IT Manager*

      So is this for an internal position? If so then dinging you for the lack of strong questions is silly since you are able to speak with the people who can best answer those questions.

    4. C Average*

      On one hand, I’m indignant on your behalf, because it sucks to know you could do a job really well and to be out of the running based on optics.

      On the other hand, I think it’s worth noting that you got the kind of feedback most candidates WISH they got: you got truthful and actionable information rather than some palaver about more qualified candidates (which, though quite likely true, doesn’t offer YOU anything helpful for next time). You got an explanation for why they chose not to proceed with you in particular. Most of the time, it’s next to impossible to get that kind of feedback, in part because people react defensively.

      Being effective in interviews and being a good candidate for a job aren’t the same thing. In addition to being qualified, you need to be able to sell yourself as the right person in an interview setting. The HR folks have given you some specific things to work on, and I’d recommend working on them.

      That said, downthread there’s a comment from someone in a similar scenario who was able to get back in the mix by leveraging a personal connection, and it sounds like you may be able to do that, too. I hope so! If you make it to that next round of interviews through your connection with Lucinda, try to be cognizant of your body language and your overall affect in an interview setting. An effective interview presence in addition to rock-solid qualifications will be hard to beat.

      Good luck!

    5. College Career Counselor*

      Unfortunately, you often never know what an interviewer is looking for (and the feedback you got was vague enough to be unactionable–questions not “strong enough” how?). The body language thing is potentially useful to you, if you think it’s legitimate feedback. Leaning forward, making sure not to cross arms, etc. can help counter the perception of “closed” body language (note: I’m not saying that you actually WERE closed off/nervous).

      However, you definitely have my sympathies. I had an interview a while back that I thought went really well. I was prepared, knowledgeable about the organization, had specific answers to questions, etc. The external search consultant working with the institution walked me out and went out of his way to tell me that I’d done a masterful job and gave the best interview he’d seen thus far. I was feeling pretty good, based on my own assessment AND that of a knowledgeable person also in the room. Naturally, I was not selected to move forward.

      I hope Lucinda is successful in advocating for you to go to the next round.

    6. Jennifer*

      Oooh, I’m so sorry to hear how that went. Ouch, ouch, ouch. Geez.

      It seems like all the time there is some “superstar” out there that’s always better than us, isn’t there.

    7. Not Today Satan*

      I’m sorry that this happened. I naturally have sort of diminutive posture, especially when I feel nervous or vulnerable. I’ve started sitting with my arms on the chair’s arm rest, or with one arm on the arm rest and one arm on the table (this one is good because it makes you lean forward too). It forces you to open up and I think it makes you both look and feel more confident and authoritative.

  4. Nervous Accountant*

    So I found out that a coworker doesn’t like me and it’s bothering me a lot! it’s not in my head. It happened all of a sudden and I don’t know why. We got along well before. He’s my boss’s favorite person and extremely close with her though he isn’t senior or has any bearing on hiring and firing. And I’m feeling it from more and more people, this freeze….no one really talks to me anymore. The thing is, in the beginning everyone was friendly and welcoming. I would sit w them or go out to lunch once in a while. Now….no one really talks to me save for 1 friend or a few coworkers. . I still see the same groups going out or talking and hanging out. But I feel this freeze.

    I smile at everyone as much as I can and say good morning or be nice and polite. If someone needs something I do it right away. If someone says they need a spoon or Splenda I jump up right away with something to offer. Is this sad?

    I’m not sure what I even did anymore. I want people to like me, to approach me. My work isn’t being affected exactly since everyone is professional and friendly but I still feel…unliked…and I hate it. And FYI I feel it from my boss too now. I feel like it’s so petty to be hurt and upset over but I’m lost. Once they start sensing Ur not liked they’ll say “U don’t work well with others ” and bam another reason to be let go.

    1. Anie*

      Maybe you’re trying too hard? I know, in the past, when I’ve had a co-worker or too try overly hard to be friendly it was a bit of a turn off.

    2. Sunshine*

      Nervous accountant, it sounds like you are speculating on a lot of unknowns. Speaking from experience of letting things get to me when I really shouldn’t have, it is so worthwhile and relieving to speak up. I would suggest maybe inviting other people to lunch. People also love talking about themselves so general questions (not too invasive) could help open the dialogue a bit. I think if you open the dialogue and take initiative then people will be drawn to you as the person who makes things happen. I have been through too many experiences where I was waiting for something to happen to me, but it takes two people for something to happen.

      You could always kill them with kindness too!

      Its also worthwhile to take a look at yourself too, I do not enjoy my lunch break when one particular person is there. This person always interrupts other people and speaks over them and ends up dominating the conversation. They also go on and on about things that aren’t relevant to the conversation and goes off on personal tangents. I dread when they join me for lunch when I am with others.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        I am thinking of asking the coworker what’s up, but i prolly won’t be able to talk to
        Him without bursting into tears and that’s not what I want to do.

        If I was new I would understand, but I was friendly with these people before. I can’t pinpoint what exactly changed.

        1. Sunshine*

          Just remember – keep it professional, these aren’t your friends they’re your coworkers. If you think there is too big of a chance of getting emotional, I don’t think it’s the right time to bring it up- that will make things worse. Do you have the weekend off? From your later post it sounds like you need some sleep! Lack of sleep always affects me.

        2. Betsy Bobbins*

          My favorite line to use in these types of situations is, ‘Have I done something to offend you?’. It has magically transformed interactions with strangers and those closer to me alike. You can certainly preface it with context, but it’s a less confrontational approach that allows the person to either air a grievance, or shames them into changing their behavior by pointing it out.

          1. Humpty*

            I also like, “You seem (insert word).” “You seem irritated with me.” “You seem annoyed.” This brings with it a little bit of weight of physical evidence – it’s harder to skate with a “no” and if they’ve been acting irritated/annoyed/passive aggressive, they know they’ve been caught and I’m not just going to blindly scuttle around trying to appease them. Usually it gets people to come clean about what’s going on or they stop the behavior so they can avoid the conversation.

    3. Artemesia*

      This sounds miserable. Is it the first time this has happened e.g. is it THIS workplace? Or has this happened in other settings.

      I would stop doing things that seem obsequious or like you are begging for favor like jumping up and getting someone a splenda or spoon. This may be coming across badly. Be cordial and polite but don’t scurry about providing non work assistance as a bid to being appreciated. I would keep doing good work and try to work on cordial interactions around work; don’t go overboard but perhaps once a day initiate an interaction around a work issue e.g. clarification about something or feedback on something.

      Is there any particular moment when this change occurred or has it been gradual? If gradual, it may be a social signals issue; if sudden could there be some particular thing you did that came across badly. Some workplaces are like junior high school and small things can cause problems. If this kind of situation is one you have encountered before you may want to get some counseling around social skills. If it is a new thing then you may be encountering a dysfunctional workplace or immature co-workers. It sounds miserable. I’m sorry.

    4. HeyNonnyNonny*

      This sounds pretty normal to me, actually– at first, everyone’s friendly. Then friendships start to settle, and you only end up with a few people that you actually get along with beyond the professional-friendly level. I don’t think it’s a problem at all, just that not everyone will be friends with everyone else.

      1. fposte*

        I think this is a really good point. NA, you say you have a friend and a few co-workers you talk to, and I think that’s pretty common at a workplace. If by “not talking” you mean they refuse to answer when you speak to them or tell people to tell you stuff rather than talking to you directly, then that is a problem, but if you mean they don’t chat socially to you, I think that’s just workplace dynamics shaking out.

        Though I’m with Artemesia–don’t leap up to get personal stuff for people who can get it themselves. That’s not a great route to being liked. It’s okay to sometimes bring something back for people when you’re already at the condiment counter or whatever, but doing personal errands comes across as self-devaluing–“My time and effort aren’t worth a thing, not like yours!” You don’t want friends who rely on you not valuing yourself.

    5. mdv*

      My personality would be to just straight up ask someone you know/like “so… a lot of people in the office seem to be treating me really differently all of a sudden – any idea what happened?”

    6. C Average*

      Awww, I’m sorry. It sucks to be an alleged adult and feel like you’ve been cast in a mashup of “The Apprentice” and a John Hughes teen drama. (Can you tell I’ve been there, too?)

      Do you think any of this is just plain the time of year? Spring is legendarily stressful for accountants, nervous and otherwise. Maybe everyone is just so stressed out that they’re falling into familiar and comfortable patterns of workplace friendship and conversation, rather than taking the time to be inclusive of someone they don’t know as well.

      As for the person who doesn’t like you . . . try not to overrev on that (which I know is way harder said than done). Dislike is such a funny thing. Often the root cause is completely arbitrary and not well understood even by the person feeling the dislike. You have some useful information–there’s a person you rub wrong–and you’re looking for an explanation for this, but there might not be a good one. I’d try to steer clear of this person as much as you can, and be purely professional when you do need to interact.

      Are there people in or outside of your workplace you know have good feelings toward you? Connect with them. Are there little pockets of joy you can find in each day–a good book you can read during your lunch break, a walk outside somewhere pleasant, a favorite comfort food? Make sure you have a little touchpoint of happiness in each day.

      This all sounds hard. I hope things get better for you.

    7. Dang*

      I get it, it can feel like such a personal attach, but try really hard not to take it personally. Everyone is not going to like everyone. You haven’t liked every single person you’ve met, right? And no need to speculate on why- you can’t always apply logic and you’ll just drive yourself crazy doing it. Concentrate on the people who do enjoy you and just be yourself. Easier said than done, but some things are just out of your control. I know it sucks, though.

    8. LQ*

      Focus on keeping your head down and on your work, and be polite, but you may want to cut back on going out of your way to help. Use lots of polite words (pleases/thank yous go a long way without feeling like someone is trying to hard).

      And try to make sure you are developing and nurturing relationships outside of work. Both networking, and just making new friends too. It can help, especially if things are very stressful at work with something like this.

      I wish you the best.

    9. ScottySmalls*

      It probably won’t solve everything, but you should lay off on getting things for people. There’s a theory that people like you better when you personally ask them to do you a favor. ITS not the same someone asks “Does anyone have a pen?” And you’re always the one with the pen because there’s no reciprocity. I’d be interested to see what would happen if you asked some people who are freezing you out for small favors.

      http://www.forbes.com/sites/sap/2011/11/16/do-me-a-favor-so-youll-like-me-the-reverse-psychology-of-likeability/

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Thanks for this link- very interesting.
        I read some where about the importance of making sure that favors are reciprocated. In OP’s setting, other people would get her Splenda, etc, sometimes.
        But this makes a lot of sense.

        OP, the other thing I would suggest is to make yourself think nicely of these people. It is amazing how you change your thinking and relationships change. If you catch yourself thinking a negative thought, back tract and say “nope, I meant, I wish them well.” My theory is that it’s not so much that people do not like us, its that we have decided we do not like them and do not realize we have made that decision.

    10. Traveler*

      This happens sometimes, and it may have absolutely nothing to do with you or anything you did. I had it happen once because I was working as a contractor and the boss had apparently been praising my work to other employees. I think it made them nervous that I might be promoted from contractor to full time. My immediate supervisor (who I had actually helped recommend for promotion, though she did not know that) started treating me like trash. I eventually just had to leave. So, if that’s an option for you, you may want to consider it.

    11. Clever Name*

      Well, unfortunately, you can’t make everyone like you. I’ve had a similar experience, and it’s been one of the more painful experiences I’ve had. Basically a coworker made me feel he was my friend until I found out that he actually hates my guts. Do you have someone you trust at work you could talk to about it? See if you can figure out why they don’t like you. Sometimes it’s something you’ve done, and sometimes it’s nothing you have control over, but is still good to know (in my case it’s a bit of both).

  5. Future Analyst*

    Managers—how do you know when to let someone go if they’re in a temporary position? We’ve hired three temps for an 18 month project, and one is just not picking up her assigned tasks as quickly as we’d like. The other two are doing well, exceptional even, so I don’t think it’s that our standards are too stringent. This temp has been here three weeks, and is still making too many careless mistakes. The work is not difficult, just requires close attention to detail, and I think if she hasn’t put forth the required effort in her first couple of weeks, we’re just not going to get there.
    The biggest concern for me is that though the software that we use to complete the work has tracking mechanisms and we can pinpoint exactly who did what, this temp sometimes denies that she was the one who made the mistake. Everything we do here is fixable, as long as we know what to fix, and if she cannot own up to mistakes, I just don’t think it’s going to work. But is three weeks too short of a time period to accurately assess that?

    1. Elkay*

      Sounds like the biggest problem is that she’s denying she made the error in the face of evidence proving otherwise. Anecdotal experience says once she knows you can track this stuff she’ll try to cover her tracks by amending the error so it doesn’t point to her. You’ve got concrete examples that she’s not meeting requirements and isn’t willing to learn. Sounds like it’s time to let her go (plus three weeks is short enough that she won’t have a huge gap on her resume).

    3. Joey*

      Cut her loose if she’s easily replaced and you’ve already given her some feedback about the errors

    4. Xarcady*

      This is one of the reasons a company hires temps. You can give them a reasonable time to learn the job and if they don’t/can’t, you cut your losses and let them go.

      You can try improving her performance if you want–has anyone told her she is making too many mistakes and what kind of mistakes and shown her how to prevent them, and who to tell if she makes one? If you want, someone can have a clear, direct talk with her, making it clear what needs to change and what will happen if it doesn’t–i.e. she will be let go. You can also let the temp agency know, as they might be able to do something with her. I might have The Talk and give her another week, max, to improve. But I’ve worked temp jobs where people just didn’t show up one day, and it was usually performance based.

      But you aren’t required to do anything. All you really need to do is call the temp agency and tell them you don’t want her back. They will do the hard part of telling her.

      People tend to temp because they need the money. So, speaking as someone who is temping right now, it would be a kindness to give this woman a chance to improve. But you don’t have to take as long as with a regular employee. One talk, one explanation, one clear setting out of what will happen, one clear direction as to what she needs to do if a mistake happens, and then monitor her for a few days. If she can’t meet the minimum requirements after that, let her go. And let her move on to work that she is better suited for.

    5. Artemesia*

      The second time she denied making an error was the time to let her go. And your sense that she isn’t ‘getting it’ after three weeks is also good reason to let her go. But the denial is a bigger problem than being slow to catch on. She isn’t working out. Time to move on. The fact that you have two people who are working out as expected gives you confidence that this is the right move.

    6. Chriama*

      Lying about relevant work issues is an acceptable dealbreaker, IMO. If you’re hesitant to fire her immediately, you need to
      a) call her out on the lies. you can track this information, so the only thing lying does is make her look like she doesn’t want to improve
      b) tell her what standards she needs to meet by when, in order to keep the rest of her contract.

    7. Observer*

      For some things, I would say 3 weeks is too short. But denying that she did x, when you know from the system? Unless it’s possible that someone is using her login (whether on purpose of by accident), that’s a red flag after one day.

  6. Ali Cat*

    UK Readers – Any advice or tips on job hunting in NE England? I’m just starting out in my career and am American but at some point in the next year or so I plan on moving to the UK to be with my soon-to-be husband. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

    1. Elkay*

      Where abouts in NE England are you going to be based and what type of work are you looking to do?

      1. Ali Cat*

        Probably in the Newcastle area. I’ve got a few advanced degrees in random niche subjects (archaeology and related fields), but am currently working as an low-level administrator for a small college. I’ve been told I’ve been approved for a promotion to a position with more responsibilities and a better title, but the problem I’m having is that I will only have a couple of years experience in this field by the time I am planning to move.

        1. Elkay*

          Newcastle has a couple of universities (Newcastle and Northumbria), when I get home I’ll dig out some of the web pages I used to use when I worked for a university, if you think they might be useful?

          2. Cath in Canada*

            Newcastle alumna here! I’m so jealous, I miss the city and the Northumberland coast (my birthplace).

            The university has its own antiquities museum, called the Hancock – your archaeology background might be useful there. There are also a couple of big hospitals that do medical research, plus the Centre for Life, who might need someone with your academic admin background. Durham, Sunderland, and Middlesbrough also have universities within a somewhat reasonable commute. Just be sure not to support any of their football teams – NUFC all the way! Toon Toon! etc.

    2. misspiggy*

      Don’t worry too much if salaries seem low compared to the South-East: cost of living is much lower too, primarily because of rent/house price differences. But the price of housing varies quite a lot between individual places in this region, so try to find companies which pay well in relation to your likely rental or mortgage costs. Transport networks, while usually good, tend to have more ‘dead zones’ than some parts of the country, so research exactly how you would get to jobs. The best-paying firms are likely to be engineering-focused, and the universities in that part of the world are pretty strong employers too. The other main employer might well be the NHS. All of these will publish technical and management jobs in the broadsheet press or technical magazines, as well as on their websites. Back office type jobs are more likely to be through local recruitment agencies, so do a lot of research and follow up with them. Remember that salaries might be lower than you expect because they won’t cover you for medical insurance. You won’t need insurance or to pay for emergency health care, but you’ll need to look into how you would cover your other healthcare costs as a non-European. Good luck!

      1. Ali Cat*

        Thanks for the advice! I’ve actually been looking at entry-level university administration jobs in that area and sadly the pay is similar to what I’m getting paid now (once you do the conversion). So I’m not so worried about that. I’m more concerned that they won’t give me a fighting chance since all my job experience is in the US and its limited (only 2 years) and my degrees are not really relevant to business/management/administration (okay they’re not at all relevant).

        1. misspiggy*

          Actually, it could be an advantage. The US university sector may be seen as more cutting-edge and efficient than the UK in its business and administration practices, so you could emphasise all the useful strategies and tools you learned about. As long as you also show evidence of applying new processes and information quickly, and adapting flexibly to different workplace norms and cultures, you should be fine. Researching the regulatory regimes and legal requirements affecting English universities would be a good idea, remembering that there are sometimes quite different laws and standards affecting the different countries which make up the UK. Also taking into account the impact of EC laws and regulations. I’m thinking data protection laws, admissions practices, HR and accounting rules and so on. Even if you don’t have detailed knowledge of these, knowing how regulations in these areas could affect university administration could be useful.

          1. misspiggy*

            Oh, and the lack of a business degree doesn’t matter at all in most university administration areas. There’s still a fair amount of intellectual snobbery about management degrees. If you have a passion for another academic area, and can show how it’s helped you build relevant skills, that will probably be a plus. Many university administration teams want someone who is an enthusiastic supporter of a range of academic learning and research.

        2. RFWL*

          It will take a while but eventually you will stop doing the conversion and just get on with things. :)

          My partner and I moved to London last year and it took almost a year for us to both get jobs, with a lot of close chances lost along the way. The recruiter thing didn’t work well for us at all – he got screwed around a bunch and I didn’t have the pedigree for those in my line of work that a recruiter would contact me. In the end I found my role on LinkedIn and he was contacted by a recruiter for a super niche skill he has he incidentally picked up when he was pursuing his degree. We both indicated on CVs that we have the right to live and work in the UK without restriction (so they know you aren’t bound to your current employer). Definitely keep a bunch of channels open and not rely solely on recruiters – I have also noticed that it seems like the hidden job market is more active here than the US.

          Supposedly getting UK experience is what matters a lot to most employers, so you may want to take just something to get by when you arrive while you look for the longer term job otherwise you will go nuts and it will put a toll on your relationship. Alternatively some people suggest volunteering to get experience on the resume.

        3. Bunny*

          The cost of living thing misspiggy mentioned made me think!

          On moving – remember that whatever you’ve budgeted for rent and utilities will also need to include covering council tax rates, which vary depending on the property you’re renting. These are separate to income tax, and are payable by monthly direct debit for 10 months out of every 12.

          Also, when job hunting – keep in mind that roads and public transport aren’t like they are in the USA. We’re a small country, so our infrastructure isn’t great at handling efficient coverage of small distances. Especially if you don’t drive, limit your job searching to a smaller net around the location you expect to live, and use google maps to at least estimate travel times to the locations you apply for.

      2. Carrie in Scotland*

        Yes this.

        Historically, NE England is industrial/manufacturing and the salaries reflect the area. I think if you live in a small place you’ll struggle if you don’t drive, as the transport just isn’t there. Places like Durham, Alnwick are pretty, much of the larger cities and towns are industrial and not so pretty.

        Beautiful part of the country – country parks, can get to the lake district etc and not too far away from Scotland either! (might be slightly biased on that last point…)

      3. Rae*

        She won’t need to worry about any healthcare costs as a legal resident of the UK. Just wanted to point that out in case you think you needs extra health insurance, Ali Cat.

        I made the move to the UK with only a couple years work experience and I found recruitment agencies to be very important in my job search. Definitely sign up with one or a few. I also had a degree that has nothing to do wih my field. Basically, just get your resume edited to be more of a CV and I found job searching to be like the US!

        1. Ali Cat*

          This may be a silly question – but will recruitment agencies work with someone like me who has such limited experience in their field? I always just assumed that those agencies would only look for highly specialized candidates, not ones doing general administrative work.

          1. Elkay*

            If you want general admin there are lots of agencies who will place you, Reed is one of them. Just put a day aside to go into the city centre with a few CVs and go and sign up with them. In my (limited) experience, they’ll sit down and have a chat with you about the type of work you’re looking for, you may need to make an appointment to go back but just walking in isn’t frowned upon.

    3. Violet Rose*

      Fellow-American-working-in-the-UK-fistbump! My experience is pretty limited to the Southeast, so will be less useful than other commenters, but if you have any questions or wonders about working abroad I’ll do my best to answer.

      1. Ali Cat*

        Hey hey! I do have a lot of silly questions – like do you put the fact that you’re legally there on a visa in your cover letter and how do you do that without it sounding weird? What have you found to be the biggest adjustment in terms of work culture?

        1. Violet Rose*

          I didn’t mention my visa status on my cover letter at all, because I was hoping to be sponsored (but had a backup plan in case I couldn’t be). My interviewer did say, “Do you have permission to work in the UK?” – that’s really the important bit, so if you want to mention it, I’d phrase it like that, either in your cover letter or at interview. [For the record, I had a few months at the end of my student visa, then re-entered the UK on a commonwealth-specific visa –

          As far as workplace culture goes, it’s a small thing, but definitely learn the relationship between your office/work group/whatever and tea. Ours has a kettle, and if one person wants a cup, they will make the offer to everyone in the room. I get the impression this is very, very common for offices: in my first few weeks, I didn’t make tea once because by the time I even thought of it, someone else was boiling the kettle and making the rounds, and so my higher-ups poked fun at the fact that I never made the tea. Oh, and “tea” is assumed to include milk, but sugar preference varies wildly.

          1. Cath in Canada*

            For my first few years in Canada I had a “Status in Canada” line near the top of my CV, right under my contact info. (“Status in Canada: [visa type], would need sponsorship from employer” then “Status in Canada: Permanent Resident, no employment restrictions”. I now have “Citizenship: Canadian and British”.

        2. Violet Rose*

          Oops, didn’t realise I left my first paragraph hanging, there. That was supposed to end with, “– dual citizenship came very much in handy there.”

  7. Nervous Accountant*

    Just not a great week. I was forwarded a really bad review from a client that was full of lies…normally I take feedback well and reflect on it, my managers and boss are all aware of this and acknowledge this. But this time….I did everything right and even had documentation to back it up. Did my boss care? Nope!
    I did everything right but this…..it makes me so upset..

    Doesn’t help that both of my direct managers who (I think) wanted me to stay on are on leave so…idk….

    In other aspects of my work im doing better…my boss doesn’t review my work directly but I haven’t heard any complaints from the senior accountants who do (not that I’m a rockstar but I’m not incompetent either). I’m not the lowest or highest producer but personally I feel 100x more confident about what I’m doing and thus a better producer this year. My boss acknowledges this too. I was on top of my work and nothing major slipped through the cracks and I got to go home at s reasonable hour on deadline day. I feel like this should make some difference but then one client complaint (lies no less!) can undo EVERYTHING and shit hits th fan. Is it like that everywhere?

    It doesn’t help I’ve been working 13 days straight and on little sleep.

    1. fposte*

      It doesn’t sound like it undid everything, though; it just sounds like it made somebody unhappy that your client was unhappy. I don’t think there’s any level of achievement that means you don’t hear about that. It also sounds like overall the job is going okay, or okay as an account position can during tax season. So congratulations on that!

      Try to get as much sleep as you can considering the time of year; I think it’ll make a lot of this stuff seems smaller.

    2. catsAreCool*

      It depends. In my workplace, as long as they know you did a good job, they aren’t going to be mad at you because a customer was unfairly angry. Of course, if this happens a lot, they might start wondering why.

  8. Wip*

    What was the first time you felt like a manager?

    This is my first management position and coming into it I felt weird thinking of myself as being in charge. Recently I’ve been having minor issues with an employee. I was nervous but I called her into my office and had a talk with her about it. It went very well and she’s responded nicely to the feedback. Ever since then I’ve felt like a real manager. I feel a lot more confident in my authority and that I can have the difficult conversations. I’ve still got a lot of learning to do, but it feels really good to take ownership of being a leader.

    I was just curious if any others have had experiences like that where it just clicked, or if it was a slower process that you can’t really pinpoint.

    1. louise*

      Nothing is coming to mind right off, but just yesterday I was musing about when I first felt like a real adult — in my 20s at a massive event that had a lot of children at it. One child couldn’t find his chaperone and asked me for help. I wanted to look around and be like, um, I think you’re looking for an adult but I realized that was me, and I quickly solved his problem.

      1. gloria*

        The first time I felt like a real adult was when I was working with kids and there was a bug on the table and I realized I was the grown-up who had to smash it! Of course I was 19 at the time so it was a fairly temporary feeling of adulthood. 8 years later my ratio of adult-to-non-adult feelings has shifted steadily upward but there are still times when I feel like I’m in a B-list comedy about a teenager faking her way in the world, soon to be caught out to hilarious effect.

      2. Beancounter in Texas*

        I’m in the second half of my 30’s with two mortgages, a car payment, a paid off student loan and an 18 month old toddler, and I still can’t believe I’m an adult. I was a very serious child, but as I get older, I take life less seriously and have more fun.

    2. Nom d'pixels*

      I had a new-to-me direct report. I work in one of those places where your boss, their boss, and maybe even one more up the ladder are aware of what you do and will try to give you assignments. This employee, Theon, had been directly reporting to someone who was incompetent. There was a kind of interim time where Theon reported to his supervisor’s supervisor instead, and his supervisor also became involved. They were all giving Theon conflicting projects and all expected him to follow their instructions.
      As soon as Theon moved to my team, I sat down with everyone involved and explained that any assignments he was given needed to come through me. I told them that if he were given any assignments directly by them, he was to run them by my first. That meeting was their one chance to prioritize anything they wanted him to do, but I wasn’t going to allow him to be pulled in several directions.
      Theon ended up being a pretty bad employee who fortunately found another job during his PIP, but I did feel like I was really stepping up to the plate in that meeting.

      1. KarenT*

        Definitely sounds to me like you stepped up to the plate! You handled that situation really well and it was the right thing to do. Theon’s poor performance shouldn’t impact his need for clear direction.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      One day a couple people came to me, “We changed things, this process is so much easier now. We want to show you.” They were excited. (step a: it was important that I go see this) I went to look and they had reduced labor by 75% and the job was being handled well (step b: their thinking was aligned with mine- “let’s streamline and not kill ourselves doing this”). They said, “Do you have to get permission for these changes? Will we get in trouble?” (step c: This seals the deal. I took a deep breath. No, I don’t feel I need permission to authorize reduction of labor for a given task by 75%.) I told them if anyone says anything tell them to come chat with me. (step 4: They were doing a good job, I was proud to work with them and I wanted them to think of more ways to reduce the labor intensiveness of our work. I felt like I had settle into my role and they had settled in to theirs. We had arrived.)

    4. onnellinen*

      For me, it clicked when I learned that staff on my team get together for a drink regularly outside work, and I had not been invited! :)

  9. Ali*

    I found out yesterday that I did not get a social media job I had a phone interview for a month ago. The recruiter said it took time to get back to me because the hiring manager changed what he/she was seeking in the job, and I didn’t have experience in the two things they wanted someone to have experience with. The recruiter told me I could keep applying for jobs in the company, but seeing as they took two months to contact me initially and another month to notify me after my interview, they’re not really at the top of my list. But hey, at least they are keeping in touch, right?

    Still, I am *so* weary of hearing some variation of “Your background is great/you’d be an asset/you have good skills, but you don’t have experience in X.”

    I was considering going to grad school *if* I could get this one assistantship offered through my desired program. However, I found out that the assistantship stipend would only cover university tuition, not the tuition for your college/department, so I’d still have to come up with over $10,000 in tuition before factoring in living expenses, books and other things. I’ve ultimately decided to take myself out of the process, since $10,000+ is still a substantial amount to me. So now I finally learned what everyone else here is saying about grad school to be true.

    I really thought I would have some opportunities pop up, but that’s not the case. I’m going to NYC in a few weeks to house sit for my sister who is going on vacation, so I’m hoping to keep applying to employers in the area and mention that I’ll be in town to see if I can get some interviews. Onward and upward.

    1. VictoriaHR*

      Hang in there, you’ll find something. The economy’s still at a point where employers can be choosy and keep searching for the “purple squirrel” i.e. the one person that’s almost impossible to find, that has every qualification and skill that they’re looking for.

    2. QAT Contractor*

      I was in the same boat at the start of my career. It seemed like if you didn’t have any working experience in every single thing the company wanted, you were immediately rejected. I did have quite a few interviews that resulted in the same “you would be good but…” and it did end up dragging on me after a while. Eventually I decided to give up for a while and not apply anywhere. I already had 2 part time jobs that were paying me plenty to continue my lifestyle, but they weren’t helping me reach my professional career that I wanted.

      I did get lucky though. A company found my resume on Monster and had me come in for an interview. Two days after that interview I got an offer and accepted. I’ve been with the same company now for 7.5 years and still love it.

      I know this isn’t the best approach to take, or really good advice at all :-p, but the point is, eventually you will find something. The company I though I wanted to work for as a dream job didn’t work out and I’ve been glad it didn’t after I hear more and more about that company over the years. I still get to do what I wanted to do, but for a much better company.

      If you want to gain some experience in X Y and Z, I do suggest looking up books, videos, training sessions or even software (if available) and learning it on your own. Though it might not be “real workplace” experience, at least you know of X Y and Z and can apply your knowledge.

    3. C Average*

      I’m sorry you’re having such a rough go of it.

      I’ll bet a change of scenery will be nice, and it should be a really pleasant time of year in NYC. I’ll be there myself in late April for my nephew’s bar mitzvah and am really looking forward to the trip. Such a fun city with so much cool stuff to see and do.

      Try to enjoy having a place to yourself, being in a new setting, and being in close proximity to a lot of employers and a lot of interesting sights.

      I remember a while back you’d started a blog. Any progress on that front? (I’m a serial blog abandoner and am always impressed by people who can start one and stick with it.)

    4. Hermoine Granger*

      I’m in a similar boat and don’t have much advice to offer beyond keep trying and eventually you’ll find something. Companies are still holding out hope for unicorns (and I’m guessing they’re finding them) so there’s nothing else you can really do but keep keeping on.

    5. Khoots*

      I’m in the same boat but recently met with someone in the industry who gave me some great advice! Try getting involved with some different membership organizations or even looking for volunteer opportunities in your field. As long as you’re okay with doing some extra unpaid work this will not only get you some great professional networking in but there’s also an opportunity to learn some new skills you may not have right now. I hope this helps and good luck on your search!

  10. Stephanie*

    After I complained about feeling stuck in my underemployment gig, I guess the fates smiled upon me: I have a phone interview at my company for something in line with my background! And it’s full-time (they hire a lot of people as part-timers).

    I’m being considered as an external candidate. That being said, do I tell my boss I have an interview for a different position at the company? He knows my current role is underemployment and is supportive of me moving on. If so, when?

    1. AnotherAlison*

      Yea! Great news.

      Your situation is a little different since you’re a contractor with your current boss, but from what you’ve said, I think you should tell him. I did internal transfers a few times. The first times NOT telling my current boss I was looking, and then the last time going to my boss first. The last time was definitely the best experience. The other times, other managers in the interviewing process told my boss for me anyway. I don’t know if that would happen since you’re an external candidate, but it looks better coming from you than someone else.

      2. Stephanie*

        Er, would email be sufficient? Usually, I would opt to tell him in person, but we’re working the same shift at different facilities the next couple of weeks. What would I say?

        1. the gold digger*

          Hi boss!

          I am really happy to let you know that I will have a phone interview for x position with hiring manager Y next Wednesday. I have enjoyed working at Company Z so far, so am especially interested in the opportunity to make a deeper contribution in [functional area]. As you know, my background is in [blah blah] and I have been trying to get back into that area.

          [Some kind of nice closing]

          Stephanie

      3. AnotherAlison*

        Actually, now that I think about it, when I told my last boss that I was interested in a position working for New Boss, he spoke with him first, before I applied or reached out. It was great because New Boss didn’t know me at all. Gold Digger’s suggestion is great.

    3. ThursdaysGeek*

      If he’s a good boss and knows all that, I’d tell him sooner rather than later. Because if he thinks you will do good in that other job, he can advocate for you. You certainly want him to be prepared to speak to your qualifications when he is called for a reference.

    5. Dang*

      Good luck Stephanie! I don’t see anything wrong with telling your boss if he’s supportive, he might even be able to put in a good word for you.

    6. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Good luck!!! Fingers are crossed. I would tell your boss, especially if he’s been supportive.

    8. Nanc*

      I’m on the Tell Him Train. If possible, offer any help you can–writing a job description, list of duties/priorities, what’s new since you came to the job, etc.–to help him fill your position quickly when you get the full-time gig. Makes you look good and will help him out.

      Let us know when it happens.

      (I’m in full put out the good vibes If You Build It, They Will Come mode today!)

    9. fposte*

      Good luck, Stephanie! And I’m with everybody else–tell the boss, do it by email since he’s not around, and might as well do it earlier rather than later.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      If you know you have a supportive boss, tell him immediately.
      And much luck with this- you sound really excited. Fingers crossed!

  11. Sunflower*

    How common is it for companies to offer remote workers a co-working space as part of their benefits?

    1. Sunflower*

      Some context around this- I interviewed for a remote working position and 80% of the team works from home. They seem to want me to also work from my home but I’d much rather work from a co-working station in a building- at least part of the time. I’d be willing to dish the cash out myself if need be but wondering if it’s a reasonable thing to ask for as part of benefits? (note: their salary max is also my minimum amount so I might have to use some of my negotiating power there). I’ve been seeing a lot of great remote position so this would be helpful to know just in general for the future!

      1. Nachos Bell Grande*

        It’s reasonable to ask, but I’d be hesitant to expect anything. If it’s a virtual team, they might use remote workers intentionally to pay less overhead. Most people who look for remote jobs already have a comfortable office setup, so it may be assumed that you would too. I’m a little jealous that a coworking station is an option for you. They don’t have those here and I’m so professionally lonely. :/

      3. Holly Day*

        If most people work from home I’d guess they may not be super eager to set you up in a co-working space, but if if the hiring manager really wanted you then they may be be open to putting that on the table. Do some research on costs locally, and perhaps have an alternate option available — if you haven’t worked from home before, maybe try it for two months and agree to re-evaluate with your manager at the end of that time? Presumably, by then you’ll better understand your day-to-day work, can make a better case for why paying for a co-working space would benefit them (not just you) and have established yourself as a rock star, and they may be more willing to make that investment in your workspace.

  12. Anonymousforthisone*

    Frustration posting.

    I applied for a promotion position last January. After a round of phone interviews, then a panel interview with 5 people asking questions, they told me they would have a decision the next week. Two weeks later, they decided they couldn’t decide between two of us, so each of us met with the VP of the area for a final interview. That was a week ago this past Thursday.

    On Monday, we were told that the decision would come “soon, very soon.” On Tuesday, we received emails that the HR person we were working with had a new boss who wanted to review the interview notes, etc., so the announcement would be delayed until next Monday.

    I, of course, cannot stop myself from reading into why in the heck the new manager would want to review all of the interview notes, etc. in preparation for a decision. My mind immediately went to the fact that I am a woman over 40 and the other candidate (who I know and with whom I have been communicating throughout this process) is a man under 40. I have decided, in my brain, that they want to ensure there is no room for an EEOC complaint because they decided not to promote me.

    Of course, I have no evidence of this, but the process has been so frustrating and tiring that I cannot help but let my mind go in that direction.

    Thanks for listening. I have been waiting for this thread all week!!!!

    1. Joey*

      The new manager wants to be sure everything was good. Maybe she wants to make sure the right folks interviewed, that there was a diverse pool of candidates interviewed, and that she agrees with the selection makes sense. Ie the justification for the selection is appropriate, the salary offer is appropriate, etc

    2. the gold digger*

      I first applied for the job I have now last January. I didn’t start until August – didn’t get an offer until June – because they rewrote the job description (to fit me better) and then hired a new VP who had to weigh in as well.

      I am a woman over 40. It never occurred to me that that might be a factor.

      1. Anonymousforthisone*

        Thank you. I did say that I have no evidence of this, so your comments helped immensely.

    3. Beezus*

      I would interpret this as the new HR manager has taken an interest in the hiring process and wants input on the hiring decisions they have pending, so they need time to bring him/her up to speed.

      1. Anonymousforthisone*

        Thanks. I will be able to think of that all weekend, instead of my worst-case scenario.

      1. Anonymousforthisone*

        It has, in the not-so-recent past, so I think that is why my mind went there. I appreciate everyone’s comments because they have given me different outlooks on the situation. I hope to be able to let you know on next Friday’s thread that I got the job!

  13. Not Today Satan*

    Last week I posted about interviewing for a temp job that I’m overqualified for. I followed most of y’alls advice–I wore a suit (mostly because it’s the simpler option tbh!) and I emphasized what I would learn in this position. I didn’t feel overdressed–in fact one of the interviewers wore a tie. And… I got the job! Thanks everybody. :)

  14. AmyNYC*

    This is half question/half rant – I requested to use one vacation day for a long weekend (weekend + Monday) and my boss said “next time, it’ll be for more time, right?” I asked what he meant, he said the company prefers people to take vacation time in big chunks, not “a day here, a day there.” From reading this blog I know that this is legal and companies are well within their rights to say how you can use vacation, but UGH.
    We’re a mid-size company – about 30 people, so I guess can see how that might be easier for management to keep track of who’s in and out of the office, but really HOW HARD is it to look at a calendar and see where people are?!
    Does anyone else have this policy? Can anyone on the management side explain why you like it?

    1. the_scientist*

      This would drive me CRAZY, because I love taking an occasional “no-work Wednesday” or tacking an extra day onto a long weekend! I always make the request with lots of advance notice and make sure that it’s not going to be an inconvenient time. I’m sure it is a lot easier to keep track of bigger chunks of vacation but try not to micro-manage people’s time off! I don’t think it’s unreasonable for people to want to use their vacation time as they choose.

    2. Anastasia Beaverhausen*

      Does your company have a block leave policy? Mine makes everyone take a two week stretch of vacation at some point every year. It’s a fraud prevention thing.

      1. Alison with one L*

        Would you explain how making an employee take a two week vacation prevents fraud? I have no idea how the two are connected…

        1. College Career Counselor*

          If someone’s out for two weeks, you can go over their records, duties, etc. (essentially audit their performance) to determine if they’re embezzling/stealing. Much harder to do if someone’s only out a day or two.

        2. Anastasia Beaverhausen*

          I’m not sure how widespread this is, it may be just a finance thing. It’s based upon the expecation that if an employee is running a scam, fraud, making trades that she doesn’t want to see the light of day… this is bound to turn up during a two week absence (without computer/blackberry access) when her colleagues are covering herwork.

          A lot of companies now have this policy after a few very well publicized cases of rogue traders, fraudsters, like Jerome Kerviel etc who made a couple companies lose millions.

          1. ac*

            I think this is pretty strictly limited to financial services positions — I actually haven’t seen it outside of that arena. I *WISH* my employer made me take that long off in a row… people here don’t take more than one week off at a time, and usually that’s only 1, maybe 2, times per year.

        3. C Average*

          I’ve seen this topic come up in discussions here before, and it’s always been explained that when you can look at regularly occurring discrepancies and irregularities and overlay those with who was in the office when, sometimes patterns emerge. Like, chocolate teapot inventory is always off except when Wakeen is on vacation.

        4. Anastasia Beaverhausen*

          It’s also why, in finance at least, it’s a red flag if someone never takes vacations/always works very long hours/doesn’t let anyone ever help them, etc. Contrary to the image and perhaps general expecations of some of these institutions, but such hardcore devotion can be a sign that someone is trying to keep something under wraps.

          1. Hermoine Granger*

            That’s interesting. Since the Madoff scandal, have companies or the SEC implemented any new rules / guidelines aimed at preventing similar scams?

            On a somewhat related note, I read an article a while back about how some employees at financial companies were taking advantage of meal perks by fudging their work hours. The companies had corporate accounts with Seamless and generously covered meals if an employee was working late (ex: past 7pm). The employees admitted that they really only needed to work until 5pm but would hang around the office, go to the gym for an hour or so, and then return to the office around 7pm to order dinner on the company’s dime. Some folks were ordering lobster and other pricey dinners.

            I’m not sure if you’d be able to answer this but if the stock market is open from 9am-5pm, why are Wall St folks / stockbrokers portrayed as having poor work life balance? Or is it more along the lines of the the job just being stressful?

            1. Anony-moose*

              I can’t imagine wanting to stay an extra 2+ hours at the office for a free meal unless I were really strapped for cash!

            2. CA Admin*

              My company will reimburse for dinner if people work late, but only up to $20, so it doesn’t make the fraud worth it unless you’re really, really broke. Besides, the associates at my firm are so overworked that I’d be shocked if they had time to go to the gym. Ever.

            3. Anastasia Beaverhausen*

              Lots of important global stock markets operate on different hours than the NYSE, and also lots of finance jobs are not directly related to the stock market. And then there’s some people who definitely exaggerate the “woe is me, I’m always working until 2AM”, lol.

        5. MaryMary*

          I’ve heard of situations where a person in accounting is out for a week, and suddenly people find checks made out to the person instead of the company, wire transfers to non-company bank accounts, a sudden inability to balance the books….

    3. Sunflower*

      ahh that would drive me nuts!! most people i know prefer to take long weekends for obvious reasons. And I’d have to imagine it’s much easier to pick up work if someone takes a day here and there as opposed to a whole week? Unless it’s a fraud prevention thing as Anastasia Beaverhausen suggested

    4. Anony*

      One reason for taking a week of vacation at a time is so you truly have time to de-stress from your work. Taking a day here and there does not always allow you that decompression time. That said, I cannot remember the last time I took a full week of vacation. Really. Now I’m thinking that is kinda sad…

      1. Nom d'pixels*

        I find that occasionally taking a long weekend is key to my mental health. Recently, I had a major burnout. I took a Friday off and just went cross-country skiing. That short time alone in the back country was what I need to recharge.

      2. Natalie*

        Ah, but they’re not mutually exclusive. I get 3 weeks of vacation – I can take 2 “real” vacations a year and still have plenty of random days to use here and there.

    5. The IT Manager*

      This is a policy for fraud prevention usually in jobs involving money/accounts.

      Additionally it could just be work-life balance encouraging people to take time to get away for a period longer than just a day. Tacking one day on a three day weekend doesn’t necessarily give you more decompresion/stress relief than a normal week. My agency encourages it, and I think it is to the employees benefit.

      1. Anastasia Beaverhausen*

        Yeah, that would be totally reasonable as well! And that’s another reason I’m really grateful for our block leave policy: you get two weeks where they even take away your remote computer and phone accesses, so it really gives you a chance to deconnect from work completely. It’s refreshing to think I couldn’t even check my emails if I wanted to.

    6. JMW*

      When employees take their vacations only on Fridays and Mondays, it means the office is always running short of personnel on those two days. It puts too much of a burden on the few who are left on those days.

    7. Retail Lifer*

      Work just piles up here when one of us is gone – there’s no one that can (or will) help out if someone’s not there. I prefer to just take an extra-long weekend (Thursday, Friday, plus the weekend) several times a year. I can’t even imagine what I’d walk into if I were gone for two weeks straight! That being said, no retailer I’ve ever worked for would even consider giving two weeks off in a row. You’re lucky if your pre-approved vacation isn’t yanked at the last minute due to some random major thing that corporate is making you do or a staffing issue.

    8. Treena Kravm*

      This is interesting to me, because my husband’s company feels the exact opposite. Every time he wants to take a full week, it has to be blocked off way in advance, and it’s a “big deal.” But we usually prefer taking weekend trips, and that’s easy. The idea is that since he’s the project lead, he acts as a resource to a lot of people, so when he’s gone for a day, their question can just wait. But when it’s a whole week, they act like it’s a disaster. Our wedding/honeymoon he got to take of 3 weeks and that was only because it was our honeymoon.

  15. miki*

    So I was told to post my yesterday’s comment here:
    How to deal with a coworker who keeps sighing all day long, talking to himself and in general hmmphing all day long (it’s hard to explain in words) ? It’s hmmph sound, along with aha!, wow, followed by sigh, aha, hmmph again, mumbling to himself… repeat for all the time he is at his desk. It’s this http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/humphing and then it’s aha http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/aha?s=t hahha (spoken) back to aha!, wow, sigh, aha, wow, sometimes even a real snorting sound …
    He is a new coworker (less than 3 weeks on the job), and I do want to give him benefit of doubt, but I am not the only one noticing and being bothered (distracted) with this strange behavior. The only time I think it’s quiet is when he leaves the desk.

    1. Katie the Fed*

      “Is everything ok, Marvin? You’re sighing an awful lot”

      Try that and see what happens.

        1. Katie the Fed*

          I thought of that too. But unless the OP is aware of that, there’s no reason she can’t ask.

      2. Midge*

        My SO says that to me sometimes. Apparently I sigh a lot at home. He also calls me Sighy McSigherson. I would not recommend doing that to your coworker.

    2. Xarcady*

      Oh, I had a co-worker like that. Constant “mouth sounds”–humming, throat clearing, ahems, ahhas, teeth clicking, lip smaking, little popping noises, sighing, 5-10 times a minute (yes, I timed her one day when doing that was the only thing keeping me sane). Drove me nuts, and I sat right next to her.

      I couldn’t figure out any way to address the issue politely, so I just dealt with it for a year and a half, until they moved me to a different office. Looking forward to suggestions on this one.

    3. mdv*

      OMG, one of my coworkers does this all day long — sighing and harrumpfing, and I’m pretty sure I can “hear” him rolling his eyes, too! In our case, it is a sign that he is in over his head, or getting worked up over something inconsequential. (and he’s been here for YEARS, and still can’t do some basic things… like math.)

    4. AnonAcademic*

      My labmate does this, we share an office. I don’t think it’s really *that* strange, a lot of people talk or mutter to themselves when they’re alone or lost in thought. The issue is that it’s bothering other people (in my case I don’t mind the noises). What I’d say is “Hey Marvin, I don’t know if you’re aware, but you kind of mutter to yourself when you work and it’s a bit distracting.” See what they say. Ask if they can work on improving this habit and see if they do.

      Are noise cancelling earphones an option? Or potentially moving to a different part of the office, out of range of Marvin (or vice versa, him being put in his own corner somewhere)?

      1. Dynamic Beige*

        Noise cancelling headphones don’t really cancel out all noise/voices talking, but more underlying white noise, the louder noises he makes will probably still be heard. When I use mine on airplanes, I can still hear the announcements. Wearing noise cancelling headphones while listening to music of your choice would drown out the guy and would have the extra added benefit that you’re wearing a “do not disturb” sign of a sort.

    5. Anony*

      By EX BF’s kids (8 & 10) hum and sing almost constantly (in the store, watching TV, eating dinner, in the middle of a conversation)! I would ask them to stop, because….really, how much of that can a person take? But he got upset and told me I was being rude because they were expressing themselves and I should not stifle that expression. I literally thought about ten to fifteen years from now when someone would be writing in to AAM asking what to do about their singing/humming coworker!

      Vastly differing parenting styles was one of the many, many reasons he gets a capital EX.

      2. Retail Lifer*

        This reminds me of that episode of Roseanne when Florence Henderson guest starred and DJ had to hang out with her weird son, Elijah. Roseanne nicknamed him Elijah Minelli because he was always singing to himself. DON’T LET THOSE KIDS BE ELIJAH MINELLI.

    6. C Average*

      “Hey, Eeyore, can you tone down the ‘oh, bother’ over there?”

      This is what I want to say to people like this. I only say it in my mind, but saying it in my mind amuses me, which makes me feel better.

      Also, anyone who thinks this kind of body language and nonverbal communication doesn’t matter should go back and watch the Bush/Gore debate from 2000.

      Sighhhhhh . . .

    7. beachlover*

      I don’t really have a solution. I think perhaps you are now hyper-aware of these tics, so I can understand it can really start to drive someone crazy! Perhaps easier said then done, but hopefully you can find a way to ignore or take your mind off of them , and perhaps soon it will just become another “background” noise. I sit right outside my Boss’s office and she has a little humming noise that she makes when she is really concentrating, I don’t’ think she even realizes she makes it. It doesn’t bother me, but I am very good at tuning out extraneous noise. It reminds me of my mom, she had a song that she would hum, when she was cleanning house or cooking. We would all refer to it, and she never had a clue that she did it. To this day, everyone of us can hum that song if asked. She passed away sometime ago, but every once in a while it will pop into my head. I think perhaps it is her way of letting me know that she is still watching over me.

  16. IT Kat*

    I’m currently full-time employed by a consulting company (Company A), and am out on contract for 12 months with a client (Company B). Company B has mentioned to me that they are making my position a full-time internal position, and encouraged me to apply to it when it is publically posted; I would like to do so.

    My question is, when and how do I bring this up to Company A, who is my current employer? I did sign a non-compete when I started working for them, several years ago, which ordinarily would mean I cannot apply to any positions posted by Company B for two years after I cease working for Company A; however, I know other coworkers have successfully transitioned to working for clients. I’d be willing to pay Company A an financial penalty/headhunting fee, if I interview and am offered the position. (Due to the nature of Company B, they would be unable to pay this fee.)

    I just don’t know how to bring it up to my employer (Company A)…. Anyone have advice?

    1. MT*

      You should also check to see if Company A and Company B have an agreement as well. Most times if a company contracts out work from a different company there is usually a no-poaching agreement. I would check with company B to find this out.

      1. IT Kat*

        Actually, I know that they don’t… long story but I was in on the ground floor of the whole thing, and their contracting agreement is literally a page. Technically the client that Company A has a (sparse) agreement with is Company C; that’s who pays my Company A. And Company B (where I physically am) pays Company C for me.

        If it helps, this whole thing is a Federal Government subcontracting deal; it’s not uncommon to have multiple sub-contractors like this.

      2. Mike C.*

        Are no-poaching agreements ever legal in the United States? That sounds like a crazy restraint of trade to me. Google/Apple/ got in huge trouble for doing this.

        1. Artemesia*

          I think the rule of thumb in the US is if it hurts the employer it is illegal but if it hurts the worker, it is just fine.

          2. IT Kat*

            Close, but not quite true… companies sue each other all the time for things that actually aren’t illegal. Those high-priced lawyers gotta earn their salaries somehow.

            I think the biggest thing is that unfair doesn’t equal illegal. And that’s where workers run afoul – they don’t have the funds to give the lawyers to find a loophole in the law to sue the company, where big companies have teams of lawyers who look for just that.

        2. CA Admin*

          Non-poaching agreements are allowed in certain situations–like temps or consultants. The reason that Google & Apple got into trouble is that they’re competitors, so it’s considered unlawful collusion. With business partners, especially ones that “lend” you their workers, it makes sense to have those kind of agreements in place to protect your talent pool.

        3. MT*

          If you are in direct compition with each other, than no-poaching agreements are illegal. If if it a company you are entering into a contract with for services provided, a lot of times there is a mutual understanding that it is not allowed.

    2. Judy*

      Are you close enough to any of the others who did the transition so that you could talk with them? Invite one of them to lunch, and bring the subject up.

      1. IT Kat*

        Unfortunately, no – one of them I wasn’t close with before he left to work for a client (he was in a different department; I just know because of the management email “Please wish Coworker well, he is moving on to Client”, and I’ve heard it mentioned about one or two other people but they were before my time.

    3. MT*

      You can always have someone from company B put out a feeler to someone higher up in company A . They can just be like, we wanted to make the position perm and what would it take for us to hire so-and-so.

      1. IT Kat*

        I’ll see if I can have someone here do that… my fear is that management of Company A will come back to question me and I don’t know what to tell them yet. :(

        1. IT Kat*

          As clarification – not sure what to tell them yet because I don’t want my loyalty called into question if I DON’T get the job.

        2. MT*

          I think thats why you have company b do the asking. Company b can just say we are want to start interviewing, but we wanted to ask you before we talked with so-and-so.

          1. IT Kat*

            That’s helpful, phrasing, thank you! I’ll see if my project manager at Company B would be willing to reach out to Company A like that.

        3. QAT Contractor*

          Yes, if you have Company B do the asking, make sure they are clear that the job has only been mentioned and you informed them of a non-compete clause you have with Company A. Even in a sub-contracting job it’s still Company A that you work for and Company B is still technically a client.

          The best way is to have Company B indicate they are making a full time position available and were wondering if there was any way they could interview you. Most likely there is a buyout option of the non-compete that will have to be paid BEFORE they can even interview you.

          I would be very careful about this approach and be basically promised to be hired by Company B rather than just interviewed as a potential.

          1. IT Kat*

            I don’t think I’ve heard of a non-compete that had to be bought out before even an interview! I would think that wouldn’t be enforceable in a court of law. Being hired, sure, but interviewed? I’d like to see where that was ever successfully enforced….

            1. QAT Contractor*

              My current employer does it this way. It’s a way to really make sure they are protected from being poached. If they find out you were interviewed they can go after you.

              Is it likely to happen? Probably not. It would take a lot of work to prove that you had an interview before being bought out. They also can’t make you an offer or ask what salary/hourly rate it would take for you to leave. Again, hard to prove, but it’s in the non-compete we sign.

              Our non-compete is only 6 months if you quit or 1 year if still working for us. Also get’s super messy when you toss in the kind of vague question: does all it take is my company having to work for them or did I specifically have to work with the other company through mine?

              1. IT Kat*

                Wow. I wonder if they throw clauses like that in just to deter employees, even though they know it’d be nearly impossible for them to get proof to enforce it?

                You have my sympathies, because I would imagine that a place who has non-competes like that also has other horribly restrictive and ridiculous policies and procedures…..

                1. QAT Contractor*

                  I believe it is to deter employees from just wanting to jump ship, but also the companies we are contracted to.

                  As for other policies.. not really a whole lot of super restrictive ones. None actually come to mind at all beyond obvious ones like be at work during core hours, do 40 a week (min), submit your timesheet, don’t do stupid stuff on the internet, etc.

                  It’s a great job and great company to work for other than the one non-compete stipulation. We are actually all full time employees, and paid as such, whether we are on a client or not, which is a huge difference from the other contracting companies around here and one of the reasons I was drawn to working here.

    4. Mike C.*

      Depending on your job or your state, it’s likely that non-compete is bullshit. Not even Formula 1 engineers have gardening leave/non-compete times of longer than a year.

      Also, does Company A actually enforce their non-competes?

      /I f***ing hate the concept of an unpaid non-compete. If you want to keep me on as an employee, then treat me right. If you want me out of the working world, then how am I supposed to pay my bills? Anyone who uses unpaid non-competes should be thrown into a canyon.

      1. IT Kat*

        Honestly, I almost didn’t accept the offer with Company A when they presented me with a non-compete, way back when I was hired. The only reason I did is because at the time, I had not many choices (bad economy, couldn’t afford to spend another 3-4 months looking), and it was a position that offered a lot of opportunities – which it has, over the last two years.

        I was told verbally at time of hire that they don’t enforce the non-compete unless one of the developers attempts to take custom code and go to a client… but of course that verbal promise is only as good as the paper it was written on.

        I don’t believe that they will enforce the non-compete, but at the same time, I don’t want to be known as “that employee who sued” so I’d rather pay whatever buyout might be involved.

        1. Mike C.*

          They would be the ones suing, not you.

          Also, the “stealing custom code thing” is a crap excuse. There are already laws against that sort of activity – it’s called theft.

          Aren’t buyouts generally in the range of a year or more of salary?

          1. IT Kat*

            True, they would be the ones suing. But I’d still be in court… and potential employers who do a background check in the future would probably see it. That’s more what I was worried about. It’s not fair, but it’s a fact of life that if you have two similar candidates and one has been involved in legal proceedings vs. a former employer and the other hasn’t, you’re going to lean in the direction of the one who hasn’t.

            I’ve never dealt with non-competes before, but I have dealt with working for temp companies and being hired on by clients. Usually in that case it was a percent of the yearly salary as a ‘headhunter’ fee – it seems to me that a year or more of salary wouldn’t be reasonable, at that point no one would ever get hired because they’d be paying essentially double the employee’s market value for a year.

            For clarification, the non-compete I have is very, very general and doesn’t mention a buyout at all. I assume there would be one, however. (Honestly, I don’t even think it is enforceable in my case – but I want to be as prepared as possible.)

            I’m not arguing that the non-compete is crap. ;) I didn’t think the custom code excuse made sense when I was given the explanation, either.

          2. QAT Contractor*

            It depends on the industry and the contract really. I believe my company asks for 6 months of salary (what the employee is getting paid) in order to drop the clause.

            I could be wrong though as the last time I heard it brougth up was about 4 years ago when a friend of mine was being persued by one of our clients. In that case he told them to work it out with our company and that they would have to buy out his contract, not him. So that was helpful.

  17. Aussie Teacher*

    I have a confession – I have always felt slightly smug thinking “Come on, people, AAM posts every week about how you need to mentally move on if you apply to a job and let it be a pleasant surprise if they contact you. Stop second-guessing why they haven’t called you or considering annoying them by contacting them to find out where your application is at.” But I’ve finally applied for my first job after 5 years as a SAHM and I’m so anxious! Applications closed a week ago and I would have expected a call for an interview based on my experience, but there’s been nothing but crickets! (There haven’t been many jobs in my field lately that are part-time, so this is currently the only iron I have in the fire.) I know a week is peanuts in hiring fields, but I’m alternating between “I DEFINITELY don’t have the job” (and mentally writing my gracious follow-up email to ask for feedback on how to make myself a stronger candidate for next time) and “Of course they are just busy, they’ll call soon. You’ll definitely get an interview.”

    So yeah, bundle of nerves here – please send thoughts and prayers my way for an interview (I know I may not get the job, but I’d really like the interview practice)!

    1. Nobody Here By That Name*

      Good luck! And I’ve had the exact same experience of longtime reader eye-rolling turned into my own anxiety when I apply for jobs, so I know that feeling well.

    2. Xarcady*

      Sending good luck your way!

      If it is any help, my story is that I’m temping at a job. They had a full-time opening and I was encouraged by the manager of the department to apply. The job posting went public the first week in January and I applied right away.

      It’s mid-March and nothing. I’m still temping, so I’d know if they were doing any interviewing, and they are not. I suspect they are all just too busy to conduct interviews right now–there have been some shortened deadlines and some clients have piled on extra work that absolutely has to be done.

      So on the one hand, I know they haven’t hired anyone yet. And on the other, it is very hard to move on from this application, because I’m here every day! And I would really like this job–like the company, like the work, it’s in my field, the benefits are great, the commute is a breeze, the co-workers are nice.

      So I completely understand where you are at.

      1. Aussie Teacher*

        Oh wow! That’s much worse! Can you chat to the manager of the dept you applied to to see where they are at with the position? I hope you get an interview soon!

        1. Xarcady*

          And. . . someone just gave notice today. She’s moving to the other side of the country, so it’s not a case of rats leaving a sinking ship sort of thing.

          But now the department will be down two people. ARGH! Just hire me already. Or cut me loose. Something.

          But the lesson here, for all of us job hunters, is that they are still interesting in filling at least one of these positions–and it has been three months since they first posted the job ad. There’s been some postings on this site about how it is taking companies much longer to fill open positions, and I appear to be living in exactly that situation.

          My current mantra: Remain hopeful and keep applying to more jobs.

          Which is a bit better than my current personal slogan: Staving off disaster one day at a time. (The car just needed a new water pump. Underemployment stinks.)

    3. puddin*

      I am experiencing the same humble pie moments. LOL. It is so easy to get caught up in the emotions.

    5. SaraV*

      I’m now going on a month and 16 days from applying for a job and haven’t heard a blessed thing. Having read AAM for so long, I’m not too worked up about it, but it’s still quite frustrating how long companies leave you dangling.

      Actually just checked the company’s website in the midst of posting this. Position filled. Thanks for letting me know! *wipes dripped sarcasm off phone screen*

    6. gloria*

      Haha, when I woke up today to no emails I was like OH GOD, I’LL NEVER FIND A JOB AS A [POSITION], then had a stern talk with myself on account of having sent in my first cover letter on…. Wednesday. Of this week. So I feel you, and am sending positive vibes your way!

    8. Colleen*

      Give them two to three times as long to respond as you think would be needed. At this point, contacting them wouldn’t do anything positive. They know you are interested, so they will contact you if you appear to meet their needs. There is no way you can speed them up, or let them know you are more interested by calling. So, wait. Wait and see.

      Having said that, I know that I have been a bundle of nerves at every stage when I have applied for jobs, so this is a matter of do as I say, not as I do!

      Best of luck to you!

  18. Fawn*

    Hi all! I recently learned that I have about $1000 of professional development funding that I need to use by May. Because of the short timeline, I’m looking for recomendations for books or online courses related to one of the following areas: intergenerational communication, adult education, or developing counselling skills.

    If anyone has any recs, I would appreciate it!

    1. Emme*

      I took an online professional development course at UCLA extension, and I was very pleased with the quality of the course. I don’t know if they have the courses you are looking for, but it would be worth a look. A new round of classes are starting at the end of the month, so you might have to act quickly. The website is ucla extension . edu

    2. JMW*

      Fierce Conversation training! It’s about leadership, one authentic conversation at a time.

    3. Mallory Janis Ian*

      If you can find a conference to attend in July or August, you could spend a good chunk of the money on registration and airfare. If there’s any left after that, you could prepay for some other things, such as the roundtrip shuttle ride from the airport to the hotel, etc. Then you’d just have to see if you could get your hotel reimbursed upon return from the trip; is the $1,000 renewed annually? At my past job, our professional development money expired on June 30 (last day of the fiscal year) and was renewed on July 1 (first day of the next fiscal year). I’ve attended conferences in the summer where I’ve depleted my allotted funds on airfare and registration (booked well in advance) and then used my next-fiscal-year funds for lodging/meals/incidentals reimbursement upon return from the trip; maybe you could do that.

  19. the_scientist*

    I got an email from my new boss this morning that basically said “you rock and keep up the good work”. This week has been a real “trial by fire” week for me and I haven’t been here long enough to really understand all the internal dynamics and undercurrents at play here, so at each step of the process I was worried about emailing the wrong person/not including the right person/overstepping the boundaries of who I should be communicating with vs. where my boss should be taking over. What a relief to hear that I haven’t made a total ass of myself!

    1. OriginalEmma*

      How gratifying! Nice. Save that in a personal commendation folder for yourself, you can review it at performance appraisal time or when you just need a pick-me-up.

      1. Gandalf the Nude*

        I started doing this after seeing folks talk about a “Kudos” folder a couple weeks ago! It has been so helpful on stressful days. I wish there were a way to save compliments made in phone calls, as well. I feel like I get more of those, haha.

        1. College Career Counselor*

          No reason you can’t take a couple of minutes to write down the specifics (who called, what was the problem/project/issue, what did they say about your performance) and email it to yourself to keep in a kudos or “psychological income” folder.

    2. Fante*

      What a great start! I have a friend whose company has a colleague ‘kudos’ type of program, and if an employee gets a certain number of acknowledgement from other coworkers, they get a $100 giftcard. Such a great incentive system!

    3. C Average*

      Aww, that’s so nice! I wish more people would do that kind of thing. I’ve gotten a few such emails through the years and I treasure them.

  20. illini02*

    How would you ask about a raise when your yearly performance evaluation wasn’t great? I’m in sales. My sales numbers are great. However my performance evaluation dinged me a lot on other things (which in my opinion don’t affect the fact that I’m exceeding my numbers). Regardless though, while it wasn’t great, I do think I at least deserve the standard 3% cost of living increase. Problem is, my supervisors, who did my evaluation, isn’t in charge of raises. Do I bring this up with him? Go straight to his boss (who is in charge of it)? Do I bring up the evaluation at all? Any advice is appreciated.

    1. Nanc*

      No suggestions for the raise thing, but I would suggest following up with your supervisor about the Dinged Things. Even when managers/supervisors aren’t in charge of OKing a raise, we are often asked for our opinion. Dinged Things may not seem important to you, but they are to him because he raised them in your review. If he didn’t give you any feedback on how you might improve, ask. You might write out your questions/comments first and either schedule a meeting, or email them to him and ask to schedule a time to discuss. You excel in posting great sales numbers, fine, why not do everything you can to excel in the areas your boss dinged? Sometimes it doesn’t take that much to bring an area of responsibility up the the boss’s standard.

    2. Holly Day*

      Do you know what criteria your company uses to grant raises? If it’s very numbers driven then you can lean on your sales numbers and make a strong case that you’re exceeding expectations. If your company — or the boss in charge of raises — really looks at your overall performance and these other factors then that’s important to know to make a better case for your overall contributions, and know for your next review what’s measured.

      Is this your first raise cycle with the company? If so, you could go to your supervisor and ask something like “how does the raise process work? Is that something I talk to you about, or should I go right to Jane the Boss?” If not your supervisor, it may be helpful to talk to a trusted colleague or two who have been through it before and can give you advice about how much (and to whom) you can make a pitch for your own raise. Some organizations you just won’t have much say, either because of a formula or overall budgetary constraints that don’t have anything to do with your performance or how much you deserve a raise.

  21. Katie the Fed*

    So….I’m (hopefully) returning to work next week after a 5-week absence.

    Any tips for how to triage everything I’ll have to do? My email will be a mess – I didn’t even have a chance to put up an out-of-office because this was an unexpected absence. And my employees – so much to catch up on.

    What would you want from a manager who’s been out that long?

    1. IT Kat*

      Personally, if it were my manager coming back after a long unexpected absence, I’d like maybe 30 min to touch base with them for anything that I handled that may concern them – for instance: “It was mostly business as normal, but Suzie from ClientA called with this urgent issue, and this is how I handled it.” Not a blow-by-blow, but more of an sync meeting so you were aware of things that happened during the absence so that you didn’t get blindsided by them later.

      As for coming back after an absence – I’d suggest taking the first day and just triaging email, mail, correspondence, cleaning out your inbox, etc.

    2. Adam*

      I think that most reasonable people would expect that you’d need some time to get caught up after an extended absence. So if you’re direct reports are available I’d request meetings with them as soon as possible to get the lay of the land with each of them and then outline your plan of attack for getting up to speed. “I’ll be in meetings at this time. I’m blocking out this time to clear out my inbox.”

      And then just hammer away at everything like it insulted your dog.

    3. OriginalEmma*

      An “I’m back!” e-mail or quick team huddle where you lay out your plans for the week. Like “Today, I’ll be answering all my backed e-mails, so please only interrupt me if the building is on fire. Tuesday through Thursday will be 30 minute one-on-ones to get up to speed on important events during my absence. I’ll schedule those starting today. Friday will be X.” etc. etc.

      That’s assuming you even KNOW what your plans will be! But I thought this might be nice to avoid the avalanche of information that’ll hit you when you walk in the door. Expectation management and all that.

    4. The Office Admin*

      If you could arrange a meeting early that first day with most of your employees, to ask them what they need from you and what you need urgent updates on.
      As an employee, I usually have a running list of “stuff” I need from my boss. signatures, call backs, more signatures, accounting problems so when he’s gone for a couple weeks, we have a lot of catching up to do. We tend to do a separate meeting and then he catches up with the Superintendent.
      So, meeting with all(if appropriate, like they all have the same work focuses) or separately with your top reports, depending on what makes the most sense for your work.
      Then, triage your email.
      Having meetings before your email will help give you context for some of your emails and also allow you to say at the start of your meeting: “I haven’t read my emails yet, so keep that in mind, don’t update me on something you’ve already sent an email detailing this issue to me”
      I usually create temp email folders to sort everything into. Labeled something like: NOW, THIS WEEK, SEND TO SOMEONE ELSE, and NEED TO KNOW(needs to be read but little to no action needs to be taken).

      1. Katie the Fed*

        Oh I like that system too. I’ll give it a try.

        I usually check email first but the meetings are a good idea – just to be aware of anything big before I delve into the email.

    5. LillianMcGee*

      They probably will just want to update you on major projects/issues. My manager isn’t too involved in my day-to-day tasks, so when he came back from parental leave I didn’t have much I needed from him except, “Whenever you’re settled, we need to talk about X project which needs your input to move forward.” Maybe try to schedule individual or group check-ins with your employees?

      As for triage, best of luck! I like to use Outlook folders and flags for emails. I go through all my unread emails at once. Flags get further attention right away, and into folders go emails that need thoughtful, non-urgent responses.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        That’s a good idea (a folder for things that need a response).

        I will have probably 7,000 – 10,000 new messages (not exaggerating – I’m on a ton of distros.) The good news is most of those won’t actually need any action from me.

        I’ve never been gone this long – ack!

        1. Christy*

          I would do searches for distros that you know you get so you can process them all at once. Since it’s been five weeks, you’ve probably gotten multiple messages from the distros. If you search for them first (or search for them whenever you come across one) then you’ll be able to read through and archive or just delete all immediately. It might help you get through mail faster.

        2. Ama*

          Does your email system offer the ability to group messages in conversations? I usually hate it for work email, but if I’m returning to the absence after a long vacation, I sometimes flip to conversation view so I can get the full picture of each situation all at once.

    6. Mimmy*

      If you’re still recovering physically (e.g. lingering pain or fatigue), you might want to remind them of this. I don’t mean giving details of the reason for your absence, but if I were a manager, I’d want my reports to understand that I’m still getting back on my feet and that I may tire a bit more easily. On the other side of the desk, as a report, I’d want my manager to be upfront and to tell me when they need a little extra breathing room. If I know my manager isn’t feeling well, I’d want to know that so I know when to back off a bit.

      Good luck, and remember to be kind to yourself this first week back.

    7. C Average*

      Ask your key people to provide the top five things they need from you. Often those lists will have a lot of overlap and will help you prioritize your action items. It also subtly sets the expectation that everyone’s really important stuff will get looked at right away and that other less important stuff may have to wait a bit.

    8. ZSD*

      The head of my unit was out for about a month and a half or so last year for a family emergency. When she came back, we gave her three or four days to just catch up on her own stuff before she met with the whole unit to get updates on our work. That way, she could take some time to orient herself regarding her own work (and probably get over the shell-shock of being in an office environment again) before she had to worry about being a boss as well.
      If your employees have made it five weeks without you, they can probably make it three more days while you remind yourself of what your own work is like.

  22. LBK*

    Anyone have tips for dealing with chronic yawning? I just started a new job and any time I’m training with my manager, I cannot stop myself from yawning every few minutes. I’m never feeling tired when this happens – as soon as he leaves and I’m working on my own, it stops. I suspect this is all tied into my ADD, which is generally manageable so I don’t take meds for it, but I do find myself getting drowsy easily any time I’m more passively listening to something rather than being actively engaged doing something (I’ll doze off while watching TV all the time, for example, even during my favorite shows).

    Aside from possibly going back on my meds to help keep me alert, anyone have ideas on how to combat this? It’s really awkward and I don’t want my manager to think he’s boring me to death any time he’s showing me how to do something.

    1. Anonsie*

      I tend to yawn when I’m concentrating, so I yawn a ton in trainings. Being alert or awake has nothing to do with it, not sure why it happens. I have no constructive solution, unfortunately.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Any chance you’re nervous? I yawn when I’m nervous and recently read this is a common reaction. I spent the whole 20 minutes before my Lasik yawning uncontrollably; it was weird.

      1. LBK*

        Oo, that might be it! I get really nervous during the training sessions when he’s watching me work in Excel since all I can think of is that I’m doing everything horribly wrong and he’s silently judging me for not using more shortcuts or functions or something. I’m totally self-taught, which has served me fine in past roles since I was usually the only person in the department who knew anything about it at all. I’m much more self-conscious now that I’m surrounded by other Excel experts.

      3. LeahC*

        Dogs yawn to diffuse inter-dog tension. Pretty sure it’s the same with humans too. I agree, maybe you are feeling tense and this is an involuntary relaxing mechanism.

    3. Anastasia Beaverhausen*

      I yawn a ton in meetings so I try to disguise it by leaning my mouth/chin into my hands like I’m being very pensive.

      1. LBK*

        That’s been my technique so far (basically attempting to physically hold my top and bottom jaw together while I yawn) but I suspect it’s not too subtle since he’s sitting around 2 feet away from me.

    4. Nachos Bell Grande*

      When you feel a yawn coming on, can you focus on your breathing instead, and try taking deep breaths through your nose?

      This might be helpful for you – Playing with a little doodad in my lap (I use a pretty rock I got on vacation or a 12 sided die) helps me focus on meetings / trainings / conference calls. I use one hand for taking notes while the other hand is busy feeling each side of the doodad, and I can discreetly hide it in my lap when I need two hands to type or whatever.

      Also I can’t stop yawning now that I read this comment.

      1. LBK*

        Oo, I can try the doodad thing for sure. When I’m at home I usually refresh Twitter/Facebook on my phone to keep my hands occupied but I obviously can’t do that while I’m working. Will have to bring in a more analogue trinket to see if that helps.

    5. C Average*

      You can actually yawn with your mouth closed.

      I learned this from a J.D. Salinger short story, “For Esme, With Love and Squalor.” The relevant passage: “The young lady, however, seemed slightly bored with her own singing ability, or perhaps just with the time and place; twice, between verses, I saw her yawn. It was a ladylike yawn, a closed-mouth yawn, but you couldn’t miss it; her nostril wings gave her away.”

      After reading this, I taught myself to swallow a yawn. This has proven a remarkably useful skill for a variety of situations. Thanks, J.D. Salinger!

      1. Nashira*

        If you have trouble with thr closed mouth model, you can also practice stretching your jaw slightly forward and doing a slow exhale through your mouth. I have TMJD and my jaw spasms on me, so I yawn regardless of how awake I am. This often works to disguise it well enough.

    6. Mike C.*

      Sleep more and increase your caffeine/stimulant consumption? Maybe walk around during your breaks?

    7. Holly Day*

      I’ve heard that people yawn more when we’re not getting enough oxygen, it it possible you’re nervous with New Boss and taking shallower breaths and therefore yawning to get that big breath your body wants? If I start yawning a lot when I’m not tired I’ve started taking a few deep breaths and it seems to help.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I have heard this, also. Breathing in through the nostrils and out through your mouth (discretely) will force oxygen into your blood stream. This could help to curb the yawning.

    8. Alison with one L*

      Not particularly helpful, but am I the only one who yawned when I read this question? Now I can’t stop.

      1. fposte*

        Nope; me too. And I get in loops really easily, so if I were worried about yawning I’d yawn even more.

    9. Anx*

      I have anxiety disorder and have many ADHD PI traits. I do this yawning thing all of the time and it’s incredibly frustrating.

      For me, it’s mostly an anxiety thing. I don’t think I just yawn because I’m nervous, but it’s sort of like a fidget, so maybe ADHD is a factor.

      Do you have regular yawns or burpish yawns

  23. Belle & Sam*

    For those who have been discouraged by internal interviews/positions, I wanted to share some good news.

    I applied for an internal position a few weeks ago. My company lists the hiring manager (HM) for each position, so I reached out directly to the HM. The HM set up a meeting with me to discuss the role about a week later.

    Between applying and meeting with the HM, I received a rejection notice from our recruiter, which obviously disappointed me. When I met with HM, they loved my background/skills set and highly encouraged me to apply. I told them that I had and had been rejected. They were shocked and reached out to the recruiter directly and told them to add me back in the mix. I have had a formal interview with the recruiter and will meet with the HM and the rest of the team next week for the main interview.

    It just goes to show that persistence is key and that Taleo is the worst. ever.

    1. Aussie Teacher*

      That’s great news! Luckily the HM will have much more say over who gets hired than the recruiter, and they already like you. It would be great if the recruiter could actually use the HM’s feedback (“you/your software kicked out this highly desirable candidate”) to make some changes on their end too. Good luck for your main interview next week!

      1. VictoriaHR*

        This happens to me sometimes as a recruiter. In the initial requirements-gathering meeting, the HM will be like “experience in X is crucial, they NEED to have skills in Y” and then someone who’s an internal candidate or friend-of-a-friend applies and suddenly those things aren’t crucial any more. And if I’ve declined someone in the system for not having what the HM said they definitely needed, suddenly it’s my fault.

    2. Jubilance*

      Taleo and HR folks that aren’t well-versed in what skills are required are the bane of my existence. A lot of recruiters are looking for “milk chocolate teapots” experience in those exact terms and don’t realize that “dark chocolate teapots” and “white chocolate teapots” are closely related. I wish there was more opportunity for people with experience in the area to transition into recruiting.

      1. Stephanie*

        Ugh, yes. This. Some recruiters are fantastic, but sometimes the gulf seems so wide between the recruiter and the hiring manager (and perhaps this is the HM’s fault for not explaining “No, we really can hire a white chocolate teapot person for this dark chocolate teapot role, but the latter is preferred”).

        IIRC, you’re at big company, right? Do they usually get technical recruiters from more traditional backgrounds?

    3. Belle & Sam*

      One thing I forgot to mention in my previous post that I met every single qualification that the listing asked for. For example, a “nice to have” for the position is experience working in a very specific environment (think molding handles for chocolate teapots in a specialized English teapot factory) – I held a similar position in this very environment for several years. I think that’s why the HM was so eager for to apply. This experience is outlined very clearly in my resume as well, so I’m sure what happened in Taleo.

  24. Stephanie*

    Second question: I’m heading to a big engineering conference next week. There’s a job and school fair (where I’ve gotten interviews and offers before), and I’m planning to attend some sessions as well.

    Conference tips?

    Also, I’ve lost some weight since I last wore my suit. It’s not horrible, it’s just baggy in weird places. Unfortunately, I don’t have time to get it tailored. Suits are sort of hard to find in my area (unless it’s a candy-colored Easter suit). Could I do a blazer and dress instead?

    1. Elkay*

      I’d say blazer and dress are fine as long as you’re going to be comfortable in them all day at the conference/fair. Failing that just rock the Easter look, add bunny ears maybe?!

        1. MaryMary*

          Many years ago, a friend of mine went to interview for an engineering internship in a baby blue suit with a short, flippy skirt. She thought a suit was a suit. Luckily, she’s brilliant, because she got the job but they told her to never wear that suit into the office again.

    2. the_scientist*

      Coming from a science background and having attended scientific conferences in the past, I would think that a sheath dress (or something more formal/suit-like than say, a casual jersey dress) and a classic blazer would be totally fine. Having said that, with the job fair aspect the expectation might be that everyone wears a suit….

      1. periwinkle*

        Engineers in suits? My employer is a big engineering company in the PacNW. I’m impressed that our engineers remember to wear shoes most of the time.

        Anyway, a sheath dress + blazer is a classic. Stick with neutrals and bring lots of accessories to change up your look.

        1. Glorified Plumber*

          Agreed! I work for a big engineering company in the PacNW too… When someone shows up at work with their shirt tucked in, it’s time to razz them about having an interview somewhere else.

          I think as long as you look dressed up, you’ll knock it out of the park!

          The PacNW is pretty chill… though, I shouldn’t assume your conference is up here.

          1. C Average*

            This makes me laugh.

            Last summer I took my stepdaughter on a tour of my company (also Pacific northwest, also tech-ish) and explained to her that it’s easy to tell when people are visiting or interviewing for a job or working for a vendor here, because those are the only people with their shirts tucked in. We ran an experiment where we took a good look at everyone we saw with a tucked-in shirt. Every last one had on a visitor badge or a vendor’s logo.

            1. Stephanie*

              When I interned at a tech company in SoCal, I kept a running tally of Hawaiian or plaid shirts. (Untucked, of course.)

  25. bassclefchick*

    Hi everyone! I’m not a regular commenter, but I check out this site daily and absolutely love this community! Everyone is so supportive so I thought I’d share.

    I’ve been a temp for about 4 years now. The market is still really tight here. Luckily, I’ve mostly had assignments that have lasted for a year (or more). Unfortunately, due to “lack of head count” or office politics (sometimes both), none of the companies have been able to hire me on, even though they want to. So, I’ve been slowly looking for a more permanent gig.

    Well, this week I found the golden, sparly unicorn of the near perfect dream job! Yes, I know there’s no such thing. This position is Programmng Coordinator for my local Performing Arts Center. It looked SO COOL. But then, I read the requirements. I don’t have enough of the qualifications to be a strong candidate. But I figured, it couldn’t hurt.

    I applied on Tuesday. Emailed the resume and cover letter. I got a response from the Director of HR on Wednesday stating they want me to complete the Affirmative Action Form. But then he ALSO said although there were 2 attachments, they were both of the cover letter!!! OH NO!!!! Man, I could just KICK myself. But, BUT!!!! The HR Director FORGOT to attach the Affirmative Action form the first time he emailed me!!!! So, I’m HOPING against hope that messing up attaching my resume won’t automatically kick me out of the running. I attached the Affirmative Action form AND my resume in response (and apologized profusely).

    That’s all I can do. I can’t go back and do it right the first time. I really didn’t think I’d even get an interview when I applied. Could really use some positive thoughts!

    2. Elkay*

      If it was enough to kick you out of the running they probably wouldn’t have contacted you at all, good luck!

    3. LMW*

      You know, I was once in a similar position — I was a temp for three years (one company) and then I applied for a really high level position that paid almost twice my salary. I had a really discouraging first interview (the HR screener was put out by that fact that she had to dial 1 before the area code, even though we had the same area code). And I got it! So it can happen, even when you get off to a weird start.
      Good luck!

      1. VintageLydia USA*

        (the HR screener was put out by that fact that she had to dial 1 before the area code, even though we had the same area code)

        That is so incredibly petty o.o

    4. Artemesia*

      I have made this mistake so often with attachments that I now always open the attachments before I send the document. It is a very easy mistake to make and at least they opened your attachment. Fingers crossed for you.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      If you were out of the running why would he bother contacting you? I don’t get that part.
      Let it go. It’s okay. Focus on being your superstar self.

  26. Chana*

    People who work while chronically ill, how do you handle calling out sick when you catch a cold or something? If I don’t have a fever/something contagious and I can physically handle an hour commute on public transit I figure I’m good to work, but after the first few days of a cold (it was over a long weekend) I came back and people kept commenting that I looked bad enough to stay at home. I got my usual amount of work done but I guess I could have used the extra day of rest. Either that or I look a lot worse without makeup than I thought.

    It’s just hard to tell when I’m really “sick enough” to stay home because that day, the level of discomfort I had was the same as my daily level of pain/discomfort from my illness. How do you decide when you’re sick enough to stay home?

      1. Chana*

        Thank you. My non-chronically-ill friends always say “use the pain scale!” but the pain scale has unfortunately become meaningless to me, haha.

        1. Nobody Here By That Name*

          Fellow chronic illness person here who also knows what that’s like. I have that with doctors too, like do you mean on *my* scale of 1 to 10 or on a regular person’s scale?

          1. Cordelia Naismith*

            IANAD, but I think they probably mean your personal pain scale. There is no objective measurement of pain — just what it feels like to you. I think doctors use the pain scale to measure changes in pain over time. Are you feeling better, worse, or the same than when they checked on you a few hours ago? I can’t imagine the pain scale is useful as a snapshot of a particular moment. One person’s 5 could be another person’s 3 and yet another person’s 7.

          2. Nashira*

            Your personal scale. I describe my worst ever pain, then give them a rating, since my tolerance and threshold are screwball after eleven years of pain. I even clarify that it’s a log scale.

    2. mdv*

      I came to work throughout a 3-week bout of pneumonia. Yeah, maybe I’m crazy, probably could have used it as a good excuse to stay home, even though I FELT FINE, except for the coughing. But I digress. My suggestion, if you felt well enough to be at work, would be to respond “I actually feel a lot better than I look, but I really appreciate your concern!”

      1. Chana*

        I like your phrasing, thank you! I will use that in the future. I am also sorry that you caught pneumonia. I’ve never had that but I know it’s hard to deal with.

    3. puddin*

      If I am sick, I stay home. I honestly do not base it on how I feel. I base my decision on what would happen if I went to work and spent energy there instead at home healing. So, I guess I think about how much going to work will ‘cost’ me health-wise. I will choose to stay home one day and recuperate rather than go into work and be sick for three days.

      1. Chana*

        My problem is that I’m “sick” every day. So when I catch a cold and it feels the same discomfort-wise as my illness does, it’s hard to tell how sick I actually am and if I do need extra rest. I usually can’t tell until I wake up the next day if the previous day would’ve been better spent at home. It’s so hard to guess!

        1. misspiggy*

          Having had another think about this, my barometer tends to be how many infections I seem to be getting. When this goes up, I take more sick time. More frequent or persistent infections are a sign that my body is under more strain than usual, and that can send everything south in bad ways. My priority is to protect my long-term capacity to work.

        2. puddin*

          Ah, my daily issues are compounded when I am ill – they are not similar in how they feel. They are easily discernible – so I usually know that my symptoms are from a cold, flu, hangover or from my illness.

      2. De (Germany)*

        The problem for those of us with chronic illnesses is that we are often very aware of how often we are sick. So going to work with a cold is often a defense mechanism to get the amount of sick days down to more normal levels.

        OP, I wish I had an answer, but I just share your problem :-/

        1. Artemesia*

          I have never stayed home from work with a cold so the issue I see would be whether it was really exacerbating your underlying health issue.

    4. K*

      Unfortunately I don’t have great advice because I have the same problem. It’s easier for me to make a decision if I encounter a symptom that I don’t usually have. For instance yesterday I got a massive headache that wouldn’t go away with medication (which is rare for me) so I felt a little less guilty about working from home for half a day today (half PTO).

      1. Chana*

        I’m sorry you have the same issue. Unusual symptoms are good to watch out for. I hope your headache is fully gone now or will be soon!

    5. AnonAnalyst*

      Ugh, I struggle with this. To the point that I’ve been the patient zero a couple of times in my office because I didn’t realize I was sick until several days in, when everyone else had already been exposed. Not good.

      I think I’ve gone overboard in dragging myself in when I really should have stayed home, so my new approach is to consider whether I’ll actually be at all productive when I feel really terrible, and if not, to decide if I really have to go in (like for meetings or something else I’d need to be there for). Like someone mentioned down thread, if I have unusual symptoms, I’ll also try to stay home so that I don’t make everyone else sick. Unfortunately, a lot of the symptoms I get when I have an illness coming on are the same as ones I normally have, so I’m not always successful in keeping the germs out of the office despite my best efforts!

      1. Chana*

        I have this problem, not being able to tell the first symptoms are a new thing. The last time I was sick, it started with a sore throat, but it just felt like a problem from the fan blowing on me all night. So I went to work with some sore throat drops feeling fine, and got sent home later half-asleep with a fever.

        I want to stop going overboard coming in too. Maybe it’s just going to take time (and catching more colds) before I learn what the signs of me being newly sick are.

    6. ali*

      I have a chronic illness that leaves me immunocompromised all the time, so I’ve always got colds or infections, in addition to the illness itself. I’ve been this way the majority of my life and have always been open and honest about it with my coworkers. They don’t need to know the details, but I’ve often used the “I feel better than I look” line. But it gets tiresome really fast. So in my current job, when I was first hired my manager was remote, so I took that as a sign and negotiated to work from home 3 days a week. It has made life SO much easier. It’s gotten even more flexible in the last year, so it’s actually work from home whenever I need to now instead. I still try to go in at least twice a week, but I’m not stressed about it if I don’t. HR has it on record that this is part of my employment agreement.

      I realize not everyone has that luxury, but when I saw the opportunity to negotiate it, I jumped on it (and it was the first time I ever negotiated anything – I additionally managed to negotiate a higher salary than the offer with this job!)

      1. Chana*

        I’m glad that you’re able to work from home like that! I am lucky that my illness/medication does not affect my immune system but I know a few people with that problem. Unfortunately, my job doesn’t really lend itself to working from home now, but maybe in a few years if I switch to another kind of position. It’s something to keep in mind!

    7. Not So NewReader*

      I got sick years ago and I was having problems for a while. Calling in came at a high price, so it was better to work sick than stay home.

      I made a list of things that made my workday super hard. It was an informal list- things got added and subtracted over time.
      The number one thing on my list was my ears. I had a heck of a time there, so ears trumped everything else.

      On a secondary level, I would look for two or more of the following:

      Internals: Can’t think clearly; concerns about safety traveling; nose running like a faucet; did not sleep much the night before.

      Externals: Big Thing at work in a few days, must be rested; already had Big Thing at work and I was exhausted; weather- I could not drive in a storm with my judgement so impaired.

      I think you see the idea here. Instead of just forcing myself to go to work, I took a closer look at what I was requiring of myself. Interestingly, I found myself calling in less because I had a bit of a handle on my rationale for making the call. For example: Driving into work in a snowstorm, on three hours of sleep with a nose that would not stop pouring was just not doable for me. (Yes, I used to do this. Then I realized I was making myself sicker.)

      1. Chana*

        A formula of different symptoms and tasks might help. I’m glad that it’s helped you out. I know the feeling of going in with no sleep!

        I’ve actually stayed home more from snow shutting down the public transit system than I’ve ever stayed home from being sick. It’s so much easier when something external makes the decisions for you :P

    8. C.L. Ensor*

      I have the same problem in reverse. I have worked for a (very) big financial firm for almost 15 years. I was healthy for most of those years and was swept up in a massive layoff. Somewhere along the line I began to develop respiratory infections. These became progressively worse and my lungs have been scarred. After a year of layoff, I was rehired with a promotion. I am a seasoned analyst, so the expectation was that I would be able to hit the ground running. However, soon after coming back to this new department, I was hospitalized for a month for pneumonia. And that, unfortunately, has been the trend for the last 2 years. I was recently diagnosed with a genetic disorder that causes rapid, progressive lung disease-treatable but not curable. My immune system is moderately compromised due to my meds, and when I catch a cold, it typically lands me in the hospital.
      I have missed a cumulative total of 4 plus months of work in less than 2 years. Although, I cannot help it, etc. etc., I am aware that I am more of a burden to my team than an asset. Business is business, after all. So, when I got my first evaluation and got a poor rating 5 months into the job, I wasn’t too upset. My manager is a decent person. Illness kept me from meeting my goals for the year, I suppose.
      I am a really proud person and have always been a high performer so I set out to try to compensate for my illnesses by working that much harder and longer when I was there.
      However, I began to notice that my new team did not talk to me or invite me to team events. Again, I chalked it up to lack of credibility and resolved to show them who I am.
      Yeah, but I kept getting sick. And since I have a chronic illness, the perception is …well, Big Deal.
      Still, I redoubled my efforts and took my laptop home every night–worked many hours a week when I was healthy and I had some decent accomplishments but they were minimized, barely noticed.
      A second poor review.
      This one I balked at, because I had met my goals and made significant contributions to our bottom line. I told my manager how I felt and broke down each error in the review (for measurable goals).
      He acknowledged that I did great work when I am there, but ….
      Since that time, I have been completely marginalized as an employee. They hired contractors to work on the interesting projects and gave me a coloring book and crayons and sent me off to the corner. We work in an agile style team room so I sit in here and listen to them all day in their meetings while I sit in the corner with my busywork.
      My manager began documenting every word he said to me, denying vacation requests, and forbade me to work from home or have any flex time. I had raised a case with HR about my rating many months ago, and I thought perhaps I was getting a little retaliation or something,. So, I decided it wasn’t worth it and asked HR to close my case. They refused, noting that their investigation had turned up some concerns re: my manager’s ignorance of FMLA laws and they need to protect the company.
      Now, I just suit up, show up and do my work. It is still hard to feel so irrelevant and invisible, when I could be contributing, but I know that things tend to work themselves out. With age comes poor health sometimes, but it also comes with wisdom and understanding, thank goodness.!

  27. hansgirlfriend*

    Our company, and my position specifically, has historically high turnover. We are only five years old, and folks who have been here for three years are considered very senior. Two of my co-workers just hit their one year anniversary, only to learn that they are not eligible for a raise until one year from the end of their 90 day probation period. So, if they started in March of 2014, they are not eligible until June 2015.

    Our boss was similarly surprised, since none of us were informed of this policy during our hiring period. It is, however, in the employee handbook. The job title has not changed, but the responsibilities have shifted during the last year. It is also worth noting that I make more than these co-workers thanks to Alison’s salary negotiation advice, though I’ve only been here six months.

    What do you think, gentle readers? Can they still (pardon the pun) raise the possibility in their review or to HR? I’m sure this policy is legal, but is it standard anywhere else?

    1. misspiggy*

      We had this situation – once we realised we made sure to bring new people on at slightly higher than we would otherwise have offered, and explain the situation to them in advance.

    2. Mike C.*

      Yes, bring it up. It’s a stupid policy over all and your company needs all the help they can get with regards to company turnover.

    3. Artemesia*

      I hope the two employees start looking for work elsewhere immediately and can get a new job with a raise which the rest of you can use to push for changing a ridiculous policy.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I had that set up at one place I worked BUT you got a raise at 90 days. You had your starting pay, at 90 days you got a bump in pay and then you waited 12 months for your next raise. It really did not bother anyone that much.

  28. Aunt Vixen*

    Ugh. Missed a thing yesterday that could have been really bad if we hadn’t had today to fix it. Normally around here when we have to scramble to do something at the last minute, it’s because someone higher up didn’t ask us to do it any sooner; but in this case, I had n things to accomplish and I accomplished exactly n–1 of them. /o\

    And it’s snowing.

    At least nobody is angry at me, and very likely nobody is more disappointed in me than I am in myself. But still.

    1. C Average*

      Ugh, I’m sorry. Screwing up and KNOWING you screwed up and knowing that your screw-up caused extra work for other people is such a crappy feeling. Everyone’s done it, of course, but it still feels awful.

      I’m glad no one is angry at you. A team that forgives the occasional, understandable, fixable, and much-regretted mistake is a good team to be on.

  29. Mpls*

    I made a career switch a year ago, moving into an area that is hard to break into with the work experience I have. Basically, someone took a chance on me having potential based on my education and some old work experience. The job was with a small consulting firm (6 people when I started, now down to 3), and two people have left in the last month. The plan was always to move into a company at some point (companies have the same job title/positions as the work I’m doing now, so it’s a logical move), maybe after 2 or 3 years or so.

    A really on-point opening showed up at a company I’d be interested in going back to (worked there prior to going back to school) that I match the characteristics for really well. No question, I’m going to apply… and would probably take it if offered.

    I am feeling a bit guilty about leaving so soon, though. Boss took a chance and taught me a lot, but I’m not loving the small office, not crazy about being in a consulting environment (bits and pieces of projects from different clients, constantly changing gears), not crazy about being in a small business environment (wearing lots of different hats). Because the business is so small, I don’t want to leave them in a lurch (totally hypothetical at this point, I realize), but I don’t want to be trapped by loyalty just because someone took a chance on me once.

    1. Hermoine Granger*

      I’d say go for it and make sure that you fully assess the opportunity during the interview process. If it does truly match your needs / expectations and you’re offered the job then take it with no regrets.

      I passed on two opportunities in the past out of loyalty to companies that had taken a chance on hiring me and it came back to bite me both times. I don’t believe in job hopping but if a great position presents itself, I think you have an obligation to be loyal to yourself and at least give the opportunity full consideration.

    2. sittingduck*

      Its ok to feel guilty – but its also okay to do what makes you happy too.

      Have you brought up your concerns with your new boss? It might be a good idea to voice your concerns, perhaps there are some changes that could be made to make you happier where you are – or not. But then at least your boss will know that you aren’t thrilled with the work environment and it will be more understandable when you move on.

      If it just comes out of left field when/if you leave – but you’ve never voiced that you aren’t totally happy – I can see that being more of a ‘miff’ to the boss who took a chance on you. But if she knows that this work environment just isn’t your forte then she will understand why you have to move on.

      1. Mpls*

        The stuff that I’m not crazy about is pretty much a function of consulting work, and since that’s pretty much the job model she has going, I don’t see that changing. About the only thing she could do is hire more people to make it a little more social – but she kind of got burned with hiring before (8 people have come and gone in the past year) so she’s being a little more deliberate about it now.

        I figure I would play it more as “this great opportunity came up that I would hate to pass up”.

    3. lawsuited*

      I think this is really a consideration for further along in the hiring process. It sounds like a unique opportunity (at a company you’ve already worked at, so you would know some of the players and systems) that won’t come along often (or ever again) so it’s worth jumping a little sooner than you would have otherwise. There are other things you could do to show your current employer that you appreciate the chance she took on you – giving a long notice period to ease the transition, referring people you know who might be a good fit to make hiring easier, etc. If you know you have to make the move anyway, staying another 6 or 12 months is not going to help your boss that much anyway.

    4. QAT Contractor*

      As Alison has said to many others, a short stint at one job won’t kill your career, but you only get the one grace time, so make absolutely sure that this new job is something you are going to be willing to do for a while.

      It also depends on how long you have been at the current job. Has it been a year? 3 months? That won’t have a huge factor on your career, but it is something to consider.

      1. Mpls*

        I’ve been at the current position for just over a year now, was initially considering 2-3 years total in order to get the necessary experience to move on elsewhere.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Can you cushion the news by referring some people who might want to work there?

  30. VictoriaHR*

    I’ll be starting a new job soon doing in -house recruiting for software engineers. I know there’s a huge bias in IT against recruiters because there’s so many bad recruiters out there, but I plan to respect candidates’ time and not bug them, etc. My new company is all about building relationships with candidates, even if not hiring them right away, and maintaining contact for years via LinkedIn, etc. What are some good ways to go about doing that while still respecting the candidates as much as possible?

    1. AnonAcademic*

      My husband is in IT and I’ve heard stories/complaints about the dozen or so recruiters he’s been dealing with lately. The most frequent/frustrating issue is recruiters having no attention span, e.g. if the first job they submit his resume for doesn’t pan out, they drop off the face of the earth forever. Sometimes they don’t even tell him the outcome, he just infers from the lack of contact. The recruiters he likes always fill him in on the outcome and provide specific feedback (i.e. “they wanted someone with closer to 10 years managerial experience”). If he checks in with them periodically, they reply promptly and tell him about any upcoming positions he should expect to hear about. Honestly the more I write, the more I think that if you have even basic competence at your job you’ll be ahead of the norm in the field (unfortunately).

      1. VictoriaHR*

        Thank you! :) That’s the goal, to get to know folks when they’re starting their careers (so college career fairs, etc.) and follow their careers on LinkedIn and whatnot, and hopefully at some point their interests will meet up with a position that we have available. The president of my company very specifically said that he wants to offer quality employees for the projects we work on, not quantity (i.e. the staffing agencies who throw hundreds of possible candidates who are sort-of qualified at every opening). So getting to know the candidates is key.

        1. TheSockMonkey*

          I think you are well on your way to being a great IT recruiter.

          I sometimes am contacted by IT recruiters when the job is not even a remote match for my skills and background. For example, contacting me for a job that requires one year of experience when I have 8. Or for jobs that require a long list of skills when I have none of them on my resume.

          I think as long as you are thoughtful about what you are doing, and it sounds like you are, you will be fine. Good luck to you!

  31. Amber Rose*

    Any ideas for convincing/bribing your boss to complete tasks they keep putting off?

    Everyone at my company is required to have a safety certificate that has to be renewed every year. To renew you have to complete an online course and test. My boss’s has been expired since last October. He literally runs away when people ask him about it.

      1. HeyNonnyNonny*

        If that’s the case, maybe you can block out a long meeting time with him so that he can get it done without worrying about scheduling or interruptions.

      2. Amber Rose*

        It’s like a half hour if you skip/fast forward the admittedly horrible and cheesy learning videos.

        1. Adam*

          Then I would carve out some time for him to where it would be easy to get it done. Ideally you shouldn’t have to hand-hold him through it but make it easy for him to get it done and he’ll probably comply.

    2. Fante*

      I’ve had a boss like this before– as his executive assistant I would schedule things like that into his day and hand-hold him through the whole thing. Does this guy have an assistant– and could you appeal to him/her?

      1. Amber Rose*

        Sadly no. Myself as safety-in-training and the existing safety coordinator are intended to harass everyone into being up to date.

        1. Student*

          If you can, start revoking privileges tied to the safety thing. Revoke access to areas that require this safety cert. Revoke internet access.

          If you don’t have the authority to do that, time to be juvenile about it. Blockade him in his office. Stand in the doorway until he gets it done. Bring a chair and a book to show you mean business, sit down in the doorway, tell him what you are doing, and start whistling obnoxiously.

          Can’t pin him in his office? Steal his computer monitors, leave a ransom note indicating that he will have to do the training in your office, while you watch, if he wants his monitors back.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Or you can go the opposite way and tell him, “Look, people are required to do this and if they see you not doing it- it sends the wrong message.” Or you can try the angle of what will happen if he does not do this.
            Tell him what his deadline is and let it go. Sometimes acting like we assume we are talking to a competent adult is more scary/motivational than all the nagging in the world. You could land on, “I will not keep mentioning this to you. We absolutely need you to do this.”

    3. Anonsie*

      I’ll nag a little at first but when it gets to this point, I’ll let it sit until there’s the potential for consequences on the horizon or I can’t do something they want until it’s done. There usually has to be some actual motivation. I also use really non-agentive language which for reasons I don’t understand seems to be more effective than being more direct at that point.

      “Can you handle x thing for this…”
      “Oh, yeah, I can do that but they require everyone’s safety training to be up to date before they’ll process it so that needs to be prepared before I can send it in.”

    4. ThursdaysGeek*

      Years ago I worked at a shoe repair and my boss always put off fixing shoes that were due that day. I once made a deal with him: if he finished all the shoes that were due that day, I’d pay for his dinner at the best place in town. If he didn’t, he’d pay for my dinner there. It was a win-win solution for me: either I didn’t get yelled at by customers that day because their shoes weren’t done, or else I got a nice dinner. I ended up getting a nice dinner.

      But that’s to say, can you bribe him in some way? I’m assuming that it’s your job that it gets done. Tell him you know he is avoiding this, but you’ll provide x benefit if he’ll do it. But don’t offer the other side of the equation, that he’ll give you z benefit if it isn’t done, because he may prefer that to doing the training.

    6. A Non*

      Can he be bribed with cookies or other baked goods? (This works on me.) Maybe something like “I’m bringing in doughnuts the day that the whole office’s certificates are up to date. I need your help to accomplish this!”

    7. C Average*

      Are there any actual consequences to him not completing the training? Is he the sole holdout preventing the company from having 100% compliance (resulting in possible embarrassment)? Is he not able to perform certain tasks as a result of him not having the training? Is your company legally at risk if he doesn’t renew the certificate?

      1. Amber Rose*

        Technically it’s not that big of a deal paperwork wise until the safety auditor comes. In two years.

        That said, if we have a safety incident and he’s involved there could be legal complications.

  32. Adam*

    No questions from me. Just asking for well wishes and good luck as I ramp up my job search. I currently work in Cubicle City, and in my last one-on-one with my manager it was stated to me that my neighbors think I’m too loud. This is not my manager’s assessment. In fact, when word of this got to him he was actually pretty pissed on my behalf. My job is heavily customer service based but the powers that be (in their mysterious wisdom…) decreed that a year ago we would merge with another department that has very little to do with my then department’s functions, and the people in that department moved to the same floor space as us.

    But it’s not me as a person that is too loud; it’s my core job functions. Part of my duties involve packing materials and shipping them out, and I use a tape gun which can admittedly get noisy. But realistically this takes up maybe 5% of my day. The other thing is I have to answer the phones and field customer service calls, and apparently this is a point of contention as well. I’m not the best judge of my own voice, so I thought “Well if my voice is too loud I can make an effort to scale it back a bit” even though if you were to say to anybody who knows me that I have a loud voice they’d probably look at you cross-eyed.

    But nope, apparently it’s not the volume of my voice. It’s the fact that they can hear me. Period. My new colleagues are the communications/editing/PR type so they communicate entirely by email, and I guess hearing a phone is distracting to them.

    So my organization is doing some remodeling and we’ll all be moving to a new floor in a few months and people are claiming new cubicle spots on the floor plan. And it was gently suggested that perhaps I could take the spot way in the back corner with several empty cubicles between me and everyone else to cut down on the noise.

    My manager was livid in my favor, but has no real pull. I just find it hilarious as I have long since written this place off as this is just the latest in a LONG line of head scratchers. So I go with the flow until I can skip merrily out the front door for good. Here’s hoping it’s sooner rather than later.

    Happy Friday!

    1. OriginalEmma*

      I’m sorry. You sound like you work at my buddy’s old job where they placed the CSRs next to the software development/IT security/other concentration-intensive jobs and it was unpleasant for everyone involved, no matter how much the CSRs tried to moderate their voices on phone calls.

      1. Adam*

        Sadly, I am well below the pay grade to justify my own office to muffle the noise in this place, and there is a long history of those in charge of doing what they can to save money but not thinking about how to do so efficiently (nor asking the staff for much input).

        And since I am so gosh-darn polite and pleasant to work with no one will ever address me directly with this kind of stuff. :P

    2. Eugenie*

      Can you combine your new cubicle with the empty ones and create one mega epic-cube? Seriously, as a cube-dweller I’d love the privacy and lack of foot traffic past my space!

      1. Adam*

        I actually don’t mind it either. I never talk to the majority of these people anyways and our jobs have zero cross-interaction, so if they want to isolate me in a Fortress of Solitude I will not a complain a bit and gleefully post a cheeky sign on the front saying “Beware of Noise Pollution.”

    3. Hermoine Granger*

      This is why I don’t understand this current push for low/no wall cubicles, open workspaces, etc. Different jobs types require different work environments / levels of quiet.

      Why didn’t they try to work out a compromise until the move? Have your colleagues wear headphones to block out your calls and you move to a different area of the office when you need to tape things?

      1. Windchime*

        The current push is simply because it’s cheaper. You can cram more people into a room if there aren’t any cubicles.

        I’m finally in a room where most of the people are also people who have to concentrate quietly, and it’s really nice. Previously, I was in a room right next to a bunch of people who spent the day laughing, hooting and hollering all day long. Great place to put a bunch of programmers who need to be able to concentrate.

    4. catsAreCool*

      I have learned that some people (like me) prefer some background noise, and others really need it quiet. Seems like they could have some areas for quiet for people who don’t need to be on the phone, and that way people who do need to be on the phone don’t have to worry about being heard. Seems unreasonable that you should be inaudible to co-workers while being audible to whoever you’re talking to.

  33. Lore*

    I’ve recently been put on a steering committee for a public-facing company website. I’m doing all the content editing, and also contributing the occasional piece of writing. But none of the pieces I’ve written so far have my byline (either they’re “Written by Company” or, in one case, it was a “behind the scenes” piece about the work done on a particular project–I conceived it, put together the elements from the project that appear in it, and then fleshed out some very rough copy written by one of the creators, but the project creator gets the byline. Which I don’t object to–she did the creative work featured in the article). So how do I put them on my resume? And can I put them as “publications” on LinkedIn, or does that look shady? (Or should I be asking for bylines? I think they’d be fine with that, it just would be a weird fit with the rest of my job here, and so far they’ve been reserving bylines for writers who are associated in a more public-facing way with the content they’re creating; my job is definitely more behind the scenes.)

    1. misspiggy*

      There’s nothing to stop you from putting the work you have done on your resume, as long as your references would be likely to agree that you did it.

    2. LMW*

      It’s pretty common to include corporate stuff on your resume without a byline. It’s rare to actually get one, and usually doesn’t provide a benefit to the company unless you are a known subject matter expert or high ranking executive. If I were looking at your resume, I’d think nothing of you including pieces without your name on it, or pieces you’d ghostwritten that were published under a different byline — I’d actually expect it.

  34. Dani X*

    Sometimes I feel like I am the only person who doesn’t have a dream job! Is that something everyone should have? I just want a job where I know what I am doing and feel like I am contributing to things – that i am not just a cog in a machine. A lit of other stuff is nice to have but I don’t have an ideal that I am working towards.

    1. Adam*

      I’ve felt like that. Of my intimate circle of college friends I was the only one that didn’t end up in a great job right out of school (for various reasons). So while they were generally all working on interesting stuff, and getting paid better, I was more digging away in the salt mines.

      Fortunately I avoided the jealousy route. More just felt painfully inadequate at times. But just because it’s taking me longer and I don’t have a marked career road map doesn’t mean I can’t do better!

    2. Sunshine*

      I’m in the same boat! How do you know what you want to do when there are so many possibilities out there? I just want a company that treats people right and fairly. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to tailor what they want to do or jobs they go for? I am in admin now but I want to get out of admin eventually but I need to know what I want to do before I can get out!

      I’ve heard so many stories of people who “stumpled upon” their dream job or it just “fell in their lap” I’ve been waiting for that to happen to me- an aha moment even. But I would like to be proactive on some soul searching professionally.

    3. HeyNonnyNonny*

      No, I don’t either! I work to live, not live to work, so I’d be pretty happy in any nice job.

    4. OriginalEmma*

      Do you want a dream job? Do you need your job to be personally fulfilling? Does it need to contribute to some higher social cause? It might not be something everyone wants, since everyone wants something different. Plenty of folks are content to grind away because their jobs gives them the money and regular hours that make extracurricular activities worth it.

      tl;dr – are you experiencing work FOMO?

      I like my job. It does contribute to a higher social cause. I feel good about what I do, but it took me years to get here and it’s not a “dream job” because my dreams keep changing. I am very happy here, though, and it lets me do things after work that I prize (like buying all the books!).

    5. AnotherAlison*

      I strongly believe the ideas proposed by Cal Newport: “Passion is found by first building a rare and valuable talent and using it to take control of your career path.” I think that dovetails nicely with the idea of a dream job. How could you possibly know a dream job when you start out and haven’t used the skills required in said dream job?

      Even if you are more experienced in the work world, you just may not have done anything yet that puts you on the path of envisioning a dream job. (I worked in a printing company in high school. I can’t imagine any job in that place I would have wanted as part of my long-term career.) And I think some people simply don’t think of work this way, and that’s fine. My mom has worked in accounts receivables for 28 years. She never wanted anything more. It’s foreign thinking to me, but hey, we’re just wired differently.

      1. beachlover*

        I agree, I really enjoy my job, but is it my dream job? No, because I have not found a job that would pay me to play with puppies and kittens on the beach, with a supply of good books, while eating great food and drinking good wine!

      2. Adam*

        And people who do have “Dream Jobs” still have days where they don’t want to go to work.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        I agree. Most people I know drag themselves into work everyday. I think some people gloss over the rough spots of their jobs, even to themselves.

    7. Amber Rose*

      That IS your dream job though right? My dream job is the same: a job that pays well enough that I can be comfortable, treats me well and values my input. I ultimately don’t care WHAT it is as long as it meets those points.

      That’s why I’ve been job hopping all these years through so manydifferent industries. I get bored or fed up and move to the next possible “perfect” job.

    8. Wolfey*

      Oh, I hear you too. I have a boyfriend, friends, and mentors who really love what they do most of the time, but my two jobs out of school have both sucked and I’m starting to worry that the problem lies with me–unrealistic expectations, never satisfied, no work ethic–rather than the firms. I just want a job where the mission makes the world better, I’m respected and valued as a human being and teammate, the responsibilities are engaging, the ethos is collaborative and friendly, and I can enjoy hobbies and passions outside of work.

    9. voluptuousfire*

      I don’t have a “dream job” either. I want the same thing: a job where I know what I’m doing, that I’m contributing to things and that pays me well.

      I do know what I would like though: a calm, steady environment, a great team to work with and reasonable hours. I don’t think that’s crazy.

      It does make me feel better knowing someone who is in the same mindset. I do think many people are in that boat than they let on. Not having a particular career path to some is hard to fathom.

  35. Anon27*

    I work in Marketing and a big part of my job is writing (for web, print, social, press releases, it really varies). When I was hired I was told that a big reason they chose me was because of my strong writing and the writing test I completed. But it seems like whenever my boss gives me a writing assignment she ends up rewriting big chunks of it. I know what I turn in is solid and doesn’t contain errors. The feedback I get is usually pretty subjective like “this is fine but you should make it more compelling” or “this should have a lighter tone.” One time the feedback was, “this is fine, but could be better.” I feel like beyond making blatant grammatical errors or leaving out significant details, it’s really totally subjective whether a piece of writing is “good” or “bad.” Has anyone else been in a similar situation? I guess it’s just frustrating because it’s hard to figure out exactly what I’d need to do to make things “good” and I end up agonizing over every word I write now.

    1. Persephone Mulberry*

      I would take some time analyzing your drafts compared to your boss’s edits and seeing if you can’t come up with some of your own takeaways. It sounds like the boss’s edits come down on the side of “tone” quite a bit and while you’re right that “good” is a bit subjective, a piece can be “good” and still not be right for the audience or message.

    2. misspiggy*

      The main thing to do in this situation is to ask for examples of really excellent writing, and try to work out what is good about them. But also try asking your boss who the audience for the work is, and what this audience really needs from the writing.

    3. LMW*

      It’s totally normal to receive a lot of subjective feedback and rewrites in that type of role. The difference is if your boss is just doing it to get things the way she wants it, or if she’s trying to say you are coming up short somehow. I’ve been in both situations. I had one boss who would rewrite everything just because she wanted everything exactly the way she wanted it. She acknowledged that I was doing strong work, but she had a compulsion to keep tweaking up until deadline. At first it was really off putting, but I got used to it and just considered it part of the process.
      I had another boss who just refused to be happy with anything I did and could never give me any specific feedback on what was wrong — the difference is that her stance was that I was doing things wrong, she just couldn’t tell me what or provide examples to help me to it better. I actually left that department because it was so frustrating it impacted our relationship. (I started taking it as a way for her to personally criticize me, since she wasn’t able to help me improve, despite my constantly asking things like “Can you show me a specific sentence or paragraph that’s not hitting the mark and explain why?” or “Can you show me an example that does this better, so I can compare it to what I’m doing?”)

    4. Gwen*

      Agreed that it sounds like you have tone issues. Writing can be subjective, but I would assume that your boss has a better picture of what kind of reaction a piece of writing will get from its intended audience and trust her judgment, unless you have a reason not to do so. I’m also a copywriter, and I’ve gotten feedback like “it just needs to be sexier.” Sometimes that’s hard, but I try to really take it and pick out what kind of feeling she’s trying to draw out of the piece, and in return, I’ve gotten a lot of kudos for being able to take critique well and pick up on new directions quickly. It’s part of the gig, to be honest, and sorry if this sounds dickish, but you probably should agonize over every word if you want to do great work. Every word matters in marketing.

    5. literateliz*

      Hmm. This could go both ways, and it’s hard to tell without seeing the actual edits. If you’re entry-level or early in your career, and you trust your boss’s writing/editing ability and judgment, this seems like a great opportunity to get the kind of guidance and feedback that a lot of people wish they could have at their jobs. Good writing is somewhat subjective, and different people will always write and edit differently, but I disagree that it’s TOTALLY subjective. Tone matters, branding matters, there’s always room for improvement and it’s great if your boss can give you specifics.

      The feedback does sound kind of unhelpful. “This is fine, but could be better” – totally unhelpful. “This should have a lighter tone” is better, but I would hope for something more along the lines of “This flap copy should have a lighter tone since it’s for a humor title; right now it’s purely descriptive, nothing grabs you and readers are unlikely to read past the first few lines. Try something more like XYZ” or whatever.

      There are good editors and bad editors. I’ve received edits that made me bristle, so I know where you’re coming from. (In fact, I often butt heads with a higher-up at my current job over punctuation–which is our job, so we’re not totally wasting time, but it’s annoying.) On the other hand, I had one boss (who ironically would probably drive all the people complaining about bad communication skills upthread crazy–text-speak, typos, vagueness, the works) who would take one look at a press release I had slaved over, strike out a line or two, move something around, and the result was undeniably better. I don’t know which your boss is, but it’s worth considering her comments carefully (and maybe asking for more details) to see if they have merit.

      1. hapax legomenon*

        This.

        “You have to give an editor something to change, or he gets frustrated. After he pees in it himself, he likes the flavor much better, so he buys it.”

        ― Robert A. Heinlein, Stranger in a Strange Land

    6. Bend & Snap*

      As someone who both writes and edits as a major part of my job–you need to ask for actionable feedback. You can sit there all day and wonder what you should do differently, but you’ll never know unless you ask. So instead of trying to interpret what “a lighter tone” means, ask specifically what she’d like to see. More casual word use? Shorter sentences? etc. As for examples or very specific feedback. You’re not a mind reader and you can’t improve if you aren’t getting actionable guidance.

      With that said, some people just like to tear up writing and make it “better” no matter how good it is. There’s not a lot you can do with that except roll with it.

    7. Jessie's Girl*

      I spent a couple years working for an internet marketer (I’m sure not exactly the same thing) and I figured, since I did well in writing assignments in college, I’d do well working there. It was my first job out of college.

      It didn’t turn out the way I thought it would. I found that my boss’ idea of good “copy writing” and actually well written text are different because, “she went to seminars to learn how to appeal to customers.”

      It will take some time but you just need to learn your boss’ writing style. I became paranoid regarding everything I wrote for a few years’ after that job (even though it was “just a job” and I did not intend to stay in marketing beyond the time it took me to get a job related to my major).
      I realized that I could write well, and incorporate some of the things I learned from my first job, when it matters. Unfortunately, it seems you may need to compromise your current writing style for whatever it is that you boss prefers.

      I would suggest asking him/her for some tips to succeed, e.g., books that he/she has read.

  36. KerryOwl*

    Today is my last day! I gave notice four weeks ago and now today is my last day. I am very excited/nervous. I still need to do a little documentation and clear up my area — hopefully that doesn’t take longer than I’m expecting. I don’t really require any advice or anything, I just want to say it out loud! Or, you know. Type it out . . . just type it out, I guess.

    My husband and I are moving to the mountains and we don’t have jobs lined up yet! This seems to make everybody nervous but I’m just excited about it. Although MOVING in this weather could turn out to be a nightmare. THAT is what I am nervous about. Ah well, it’ll work out one way or another.

    2. LTX*

      Good luck, and congratulations!! Today is my last day at a job too, and I am so excited I just want to dance.

  37. Fante*

    I’ve been job searching for the past few months to get out of my toxic work environment. I’m applying to similar positions to the one I have now.

    Meanwhile, I’m planning to finally get all my ducks in a row to apply for enrollment to a full-time graduate program in the next 1-2 years. Understandably, prospective employers aren’t eager to hire someone who plans to leave for grad school within a year or two; they want to hire someone who plans to stick around.

    My current job is not exciting or engaging to me and I would be pursuing something completely different in grad school, so during interviews when the interviewer probes for an idea of my long term plans and goals, I give a vague answer about seeking more professional development opportunities and finding a workplace that I feel compelled to settle into. This isn’t false, but I’m definitely omitting a huge piece of information and, with that, the key to what I’m interested in and what makes me tick.

    This is a moral grey area… I NEED to get out of this toxic workplace, but I feel icky lying and omitting to prospective employers that I would hope to build a solid working relationship with. I’d appreciate any input!

    1. Fante*

      By the way– I’m also applying to jobs in line with what I’d be going to grad school for, but realistically the positions I’m qualified for would pay much less than I’m earning now, and the ones that would pay comparably tend to cut me out of the running because I don’t have a masters.

    2. Jennifer*

      I work at a university so perhaps not surprisingly, we have a relatively high number of employees who stay for just a couple of years before leaving for graduate school. There’s a whole subset of research assistant positions where that’s actually the norm — generally when we look at turnover and similar metrics, we do two sets, one with this group included and one without, even. They’re working here as much for the professor’s reference and to bolster their grad school app as for the paycheck, and I’m not actually sure someone who wasn’t at least seriously considering graduate school would be considered as a candidate for these positions. Any chance there might be similar situations in your field and your area?

      1. fposte*

        Here you’d have to be a student to be a research assistant, but the overall point I agree with; we’ve had several front-office staffers who’ve then entered and graduated from our program, for instance. And in general universities are wildly in favor of you going to grad school, so they aren’t offended if you quit to do it (and will give good recommendations, too).

  38. louise*

    Just want to share a small triumph – I didn’t weigh in on the recent poker face discussion yesterday, but it kind of goes along with that:

    I’ve held it together a lot over the last few months when a year or two ago I would have either teared up at these same situations or completely lost it and been crying hard enough (out of anger and/or frustration) that I would have had to excuse myself. One of these times was this morning when my boss came on too strong when he questioned me about something and say “No way are we doing that.” A year ago I would have felt attacked, but this morning I calmly stated how I’d arrived at my conclusion and at the end he said he completely understood my reasoning and motivation and would advocate for my position with the other decision maker. He’s also a reasonable person, so that’s why that worked. :)

    Anyway, it just feels good to feel more in control of my emotions. I wish I could give a step-by-step plan of how it happened but it was kind of organic–my boss and I have had discussions about how I tend to cry if I’m really angry or frustrated and since then, he’s stopped me several times and said “your nose is turning red like you’re about to cry. There’s no reason to be that upset about this situation, just tell me what I need to know.” Some people would piss me off if they said that, but for some reason it has worked with him and I’ve responded by saying yeah, I’m really passionate about this situation/topic/event actually, here’s why. Somehow over the last few months, I’ve been able to just hold it together a little better. Been on antidepressants for years also–no intention of stopping them now just in case that would screw up this new ability!

  39. teapot analyst*

    Regular going anon.

    I was hired to replace a person who held the title of “Teapot Analyst”. When I was brought on board, we originally pitched the idea of having my title be “Teapot Analyzing Assistant”, but eventually said we’ll go with “Executive Assistant” for now since the boss was thinking of starting some new projects that I might have a hand in and I might not even spend all my time with teapot analysis, although much of my time would be.

    The projects did not go through as planned and are now tabled until further notice. So I am doing (almost) the exact same job as my predecessor. I say almost because I have no direct experience in teapots and teapot analysis whatsoever (I came with transferable skills); I wasn’t told anything about my predecessor (who has left the organization) but it’s possible he had more knowledge that merited the better title, even if we do a lot of the same day-to-day tasks. I don’t do any admin tasks as befitting of an Executive Assistant; the only admin tasks I do is help with front desk relief if it gets really busy or if the receptionist goes for lunch. Thus, Executive Assistant is a misnomer. If those projects ever come to fruition, I will probably take them on in addition to my full breadth of teapot analysis tasks.

    When my probation period finishes, we will revisit my title (this part was agreed to prior to my signing) and then they’ll print me business cards. Should I make the pitch to be called “Teapot Analyst”, or is that too lofty for a person who would–by then–have only three months of experience with teapots in total? If it matters, the teapot analyzing department is a department of two, so I’d like to avoid the assistant tag if I could, for vanity if nothing else :) But I understand if that would be reaching.

    (By the way, salary reviews show that I am paid exceptionally well for a “teapot analyzing assistant”, and probably around 30th percentile–i.e. well within the lower end of market rate, and decent for someone with no direct experience in teapots–for a “teapot analyst.”)

    1. Christy*

      Go for Teapot Analyst. You’re doing teapot analyst work, you should get credit for it. It’s hard enough to get respect for what you’re doing when you’re new–don’t let your title make it worse.

    2. puddin*

      I say go for it. Your title should reflect what you do – not necessarily how long you have done it, if you analyze teapots, then the title is spot on.

  40. Midge*

    I just need to share something that got under my skin.

    Another department recently held a company-wide goodbye lunch for a longtime employee who was leaving. The director of the department (a woman with kids) said a few words about the employee who is leaving (also a woman with kids) that really didn’t sit well with me. The director started by saying that there were many wonderful things that could be said about the employee. But what was really amazing about her was that even though her job was incredibly demanding she always managed to come in with perfect make up, always had salad for lunch, and never ate from the communal chocolate bowl in the afternoon. She also said something about how the employee balance home and work life so well.

    I think the director was being a bit flippant, but it made me pretty uncomfortable that the accomplishments she was highlighting were that the employee was pretty and thin.

    2. Adam*

      It really can be weird to consider what other people “value” the most. I wonder how the departing employee felt?

    4. Anastasia Beaverhausen*

      I would be SO insulted if THAT was what my director chose to remember about my time at their company

      1. bridget*

        At my great-grandmother’s funeral, 97% of the nice things that were said about her life were about how clean her house always was. I mean, clean houses are great and hygenic and whatever, but I would be kind of insulted if THAT was what my life boiled down to.

    5. misspiggy*

      I think the pressure of saying something nice about departing employees gets to some bosses and they screw up – possibly because they realise they never bothered to get to know the employee properly in the first place. Mine chose to tell the hilarious story of how I collapsed in the office due to my complex chronic health condition, which most people in the room had no prior knowledge of.

      1. Kelly L.*

        I’m now imagining the speech she’d give for me if I worked there and left. “Her hair turned into a rat’s nest if you looked at it funny, she ate cheese for lunch every day, and you could not trust her within a mile of the communal chocolate bowl…”

    7. AnonAcademic*

      Sorry but that is some serious shade throwing right there! Whether intentional or not, the boss is implying that this employee’s health and grooming habits are more memorable than her work.

    8. puddin*

      What I got out of that is the Director is happy the employee is leaving because her pretty faced, no chocolate, salad loving self was making the Director look weak willed and ugly.

      2. jamlady*

        Right? I feel like with someone else they would have been like “I’m so sad Marjorie is leaving because she gained nearly 30 pounds while she was here and made me feel good about myself”. Ridiculous.

    9. Nom d'pixels*

      My initial thought is that what she said in inappropriate. However, the two might have a person relationship where the employee would say things like she just didn’t feel right without her makeup, or how important her diet was to her. It might be that the boss was making a nod to those things.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        If that is the case, she could have said something to the effect of “on a personal level I admire her because _____.” Or she could have just made general reference to “many of her personal traits have been inspiring for me.”

    11. JMW*

      Though her job was incredibly demanding, the leaving employee took time to care for herself, as exemplified by the makeup, salads, chocolate, and work/life balance. Perhaps the director really admired her for her balance and self-care. And perhaps the work part was left unsaid because the director figured everyone knew about those parts. I agree it wasn’t the best speech, but maybe it was well-intended and actually quite personal?

    12. Lily in NYC*

      I can’t remember if I told this story here or on Gawker: At a former job, the CEO introduced me to someone and said “Lily’s claim to fame is that she dated XXX” (son of a famous politician). I got annoyed and replied: “I’d rather you say that my claim to fame is that I have a degree from a top school or that I am a really good classical pianist”. Needless to say, CEO was not my biggest fan after that. I really should have bit my tongue or waited to say something in private.

    13. Midge*

      I agree with some commenters that there may very well have been a rapport/ongoing discussion about these things that I’m not aware of. But I’m glad others find this weird and inappropriate, too.

    14. catsAreCool*

      “she always managed to come in with perfect make up, always had salad for lunch, and never ate from the communal chocolate bowl in the afternoon.” Of all the things a person could say, these are not what I’d want said about me. Then again, none of them are true of me :)

  41. Dr. Johnny Fever*

    Looking for advice on interviewing without any interviewers. :)

    My job was eliminated a few weeks ago and I’m working through my notice period. I have a good lead on a new job, and have my 2nd interview – but it’s recorded! The hiring leader preselects questions – I have a secure link where I will view these questions and answer them on webcam as if the people were there.

    I feed off energy in interviews – I tend to be animated, at ease, witty, and generally winning (you know how I am, babies! lol). I’m not sure how to keep that same energy in a such a flat space.

    Also, I’m worried about a webcan setup that emphasizes my double chin, lighting that makes me look green, etc.

    Any one gone through this before and have any tips? Or does anyone want to marvel at the strangeness of this just as I am?

    1. Ama*

      Could you have a friend sit with you (in your eyeline, but out of sight of the camera) to just react to what you are saying? I’m sympathetic because I’ve recently realized that in conversation, I also need to see people’s reactions or I get flustered and tend to ramble (it’s why I hate talking on the phone).

    2. MsM*

      I’m just envious that you thrive on interview energy. If you can’t get a real friend to sit with you, I’d try and imagine the best interview you’ve ever had, and pretend that person’s sitting across from you.

    3. HigherEd Admin*

      I did two of these recently. Is it through HireVue? If so, here’s what I did:

      I used my iPad so that I could wander around until I found a quiet space that also had flattering light. Then I turned on the iPad camera and fiddled around with it until I found a good angle. HireVue lets you practice recording yourself as many times as you want until you feel comfortable with the system.

      It was helpful for me to remember that everyone else had to interview this way, too. And that everyone else was probably just ask awkward recording themselves as I was.

      1. Dr. Johnny Fever*

        You nailed it. I’m trained on it as a Live interviewer, but I’ve never encountered it as the OnDemand interviewee. That’s a good idea on the tablet – hadn’t even crossed my mind. I have a tilting tabletop I was going to try to use to see if I could get the cam at eyelevel.

        And yeah, you’re right – everyone else is going to be somewhat awkward. I like the other advice above to imagine a great interview and keep that in mind for the energy.

        Someone told me to dance and sing loudly right before the interview to release endorphins and loosen up. I may find someplace to go to pretend to be Bruno Mars make a dragon want to retire and see if that works to get the energy up.

    4. CrazyCatLady*

      I had one of these interviews before — the part that was tough for me was that I still expected to “hear” the questions being asked, even if they were pre-recorded. In reality, the questions just appeared on the screen, in writing. It felt super awkward to respond verbally to a written question. I didn’t get the job, or an in person interview, so I have no tips.

  42. YandO*

    I need help.

    My boss wants me to log into his email and send emails from him. I used to send emails from his email address and sign my name, but compliance ended that. Now, to avoid problems with compliance, he wants me to sign his name.

    This is complicated in ways I cannot disclose here (compliance stuff), but my question really is this: is it ok, legally and ethically, to send emails I wrote, boss has not reviewed or approved, and sign his name?

    My gut tells me “no”, but I cannot really find a ground to stand on here. It’s not illegal. He gives me the approval, but…..I am uneasy.

    1. Anonsie*

      It can be ok in specific circumstances, but evidently this is an issue in your industry, so maybe not in this case.

    2. Fante*

      I often draft and send things for my boss, always with his approval but occasionally without his review. It makes me nervous, too, but seems to be standard in this industry. However, I always sign off using my boss’ name and my own initials; I would take issue with omitting my own initials as a matter of accountability. It has happened before that he gets up in arms about a typo and I can point to someone else’s initials (proof that it wasn’t me!)– and on the flip side, if you omit your initials, you could become the scape goat for anything sent from him in error (because who knows for sure which came from him or you?).

    3. Anastasia Beaverhausen*

      Don’t do it – this will not end well, especially considering you compliance people have already told him to knock if off. Look into sending emails ‘on behalf of’. I often see emails (mostly from executive assistants) like this, where it’s clear at the top of the email that the message is sent by Jonathan on behalf of Jack. I think in Outlook you can find this under ‘Delegate Access’ in your account option. This way you leave a clear trail of who sends what.

      1. EmilyG*

        The delegates idea is a good one!

        When I was an executive assistant to someone in pre-email days (or email hadn’t really clicked with the leadership of the company anyway) I used to send letters often on my boss’s behalf daily and there were several conventions to indicate who had done what. I’d type ABC/def in the foot of the letter where her initials were ABC and mine are DEF, to indicate what I’d typed up. I’d write “dictated but not signed” or “dictated but not reviewed” as needed. Or, I’d sign in cursive neatly her name A. C—- and then my own initials if signing on her behalf. Often she would just tell me to write a “nice thank-you” to someone which I’d invent out of whole cloth, type ABC/def, and sign with my initials. She encouraged/directed me to do all of this but of course she really trusted me, and also there were no compliance issues at stake.

        If I were you, I’d either do Anastasia B’s idea, or sign both his name and your initials (“Boss Guy/yo”). Either of those would convey that you’re signing something with his full authority, but you’re not claiming to be him.

        1. Fante*

          This continues to be the convention in legal work, which is behind the times by about two decades. I still use a fax machine and typewriter occasionally! :-P

          1. EmilyG*

            I’ve actually tried to fake this as a way of indicating aggressively that I intend to follow up. Like writing a letter to my gym to quit and putting DEF/jns at the bottom where DEF is me and jns is an imaginary person. I suspect it works, but maybe it won’t for long as fewer people are familiar with it. Like you say, I’ve only seen it in a more old-fashioned style of office.

    4. Jillociraptor*

      I do this too–all the time. It is definitely weird, and I think you should try to hold on to that weird feeling as much as possible as an internal check, but it’s definitely a thing people do. Some things I’ve done to feel better about the weirdness:

      1. Make sure I’m managing up like crazy. My manager needs to know any potential risk, awkwardness, etc. I have to assume that everyone I email is going to find her and ask her, “So what was that thing about?” and she needs to be prepped to answer that.
      2. Run any sensitive communication by her first. If anything’s particularly challenging, I try to build in time for her to see the message I’m drafting first and sign off before I send.

      To your specific question: yes, this is okay. Especially if your boss is more higher up in the organization, it’s very common for their email to be managed by other people. Now, if you’re signing off on major decisions, or anything that could get your boss/team/organization in trouble, refer to 1 and 2 above, but this is a very common thing and if your boss is good with you being in his inbox, I think you’re okay.

    5. Dang*

      Can he delegate rights a la outlook?

      If I sent a calendar invitation or email “from” one of my bosses it says “sent on behalf of x by [me]” or something like that.

      1. YandO*

        no, due to the circumstances beyond my control, we only use web-based version of outlook and that’s the only version we can use.

        1. Judy*

          A quick google search shows that some web based outlook versions do have delegation ability, and some don’t. I’m assuming you’ve checked that, but did want to mention it was available.

          Most companies have strict requirements about not using other people’s login, it seems odd to me that a company that has “compliance” issues allows this.

      2. Fuzzy*

        Outlook delegation is amazing. I second using that, or seeing if your email server has something similar.

    6. YandO*

      Thanks for your responses. I will try to hold off on doing this for as long as possible. Hopefully I will have another job lined up then….

      Which is unlikely cause I just a bunch of rejections this week. I am sad and frustrated.

    7. The Office Admin*

      Is he dictating emails to you?
      Or are you just responding to emails people send to him?
      I do this for my boss, usually he dictates to me, but usually I sign off like this:

      Thanks/Sincerely/Talk soon,
      David Rosen

      op

      Lowercase letters below that are my initials, op (Olivia Pope ;) which is the universal way for an EA or secretary to sign off on taking a dictated letter or email.

      1. YandO*

        no, he does not dictate emails to me

        on occasion he does, then I have no problem signing his name.

        I respond to 99% of emails without his input, whether they are addressed to me or him.

    8. Mockingjay*

      Can you send them from your email account instead?

      I often have to “deliver” reports on behalf of my lead. Because I am not authorized officially to do so (he’s government, I am supporting contractor), I email a very standard business “letter,” with lead cc’ed, always, and mentioning his instruction in the first line.

      Dear Ms. Coffeepot:
      Per Mr. Teapot’s direction, attached is the report regarding handle safety.
      If you have any questions, please contact Lead Engineer Wakeen at ___.
      Thank you,
      Teapot Technical Writer

    10. Mike C.*

      For compliance issues, why not have a policy where signature holders can delegate signature authority on a temporary basis to qualified individuals?

      Then you’d see something like “Signed: YandO, under authority of YandO’s Boss”. Then your boss can get the stuff signed and tractability is maintained.

    11. Observer*

      Actually, you really want to check with your compliance people on this – if they already said that it’s not ok to send messages from his email signing your name, then there is a good chance that you actually are not allowed to send messages from his account at all.

    12. Jazzy Red*

      Late to the party, but I hope you see this.

      dontdoit, dontdoit, dontdoit!

      I knew an admin whose boss told her she could sign the financial documents since she was the one who did all the research and work on them. He went to every bank in the area and got loans from them all, using the same collateral, which is illegal as hell. He was investigated and the FBI came to HER and said, is this your signature on these documents. She almost went to prison because of that jerk boss.

      If you feel uneasy about this, tell your boss “I am not comfortable doing this” and don’t say any more. See what he says – that will give you an indication of his motives. If he still wants you to do this, go back to YOUR original suggestion, or have your signature on his emails read “Della Street, on behalf of Perry Mason”.

      Stick to your guns. It’s bad enough if you get in trouble because of your own doing.

  43. Former Diet Coke Addict*

    This Week in My Job: Payday is supposed to be Thursday and we have not yet been paid. My boss snapped at us when we asked where the cheques were, saying “I’m working on them for God’s sake!” when his actual answer was that he didn’t want to come back from his cottage to do payroll. (I do think that when you have a Labour Board investigation the previous week it’s probably not best to go screwing around with pay, but that’s just me.)

    He also asked for our passwords and lists of our major contacts. Generally he seems to be operating as if we’re on our last legs as a business and he’s preparing for the End Times, so we shall see in the next month if I still have a job to go to….

    1. Another Ellie*

      I do not understand people who don’t have “pay the employees” as the number one most important thing in their minds.

      I’m sorry that your job seems to be getting progressively more awful, but at least if it collapses you’ll be relieved of some stress? I had my contract not renewed last year because of budgets, and the stress of job-searching was not even close to the stress I’d been under because of the job.

  44. Rat Racer*

    I have a question: I am on tons of conference calls all the live-long day, and I work from home so nobody can see me. I find it TERRIBLY difficult to sit still and listen (especially in the longer meetings where I am there to absorb information and comment occasionally) without doing something with my hands or clicking around on my computer.

    I’m trying to find something I can do to keep my hands busy but that occupies only a tiny bit of real estate in my brain so that I can pay attention. I’m a terrible artist and doodling doesn’t really work for me. Does anyone have any suggestions? Maybe I should just learn how to sit still and be zen, but my busy buzzing mind really struggles with that…

      1. Rat Racer*

        Oh – thinking putty – will have to Google that. Will also need to hide it if I order some because my kids will find it an requisition it immediately.

    2. Persephone Mulberry*

      Can you get a wireless headset so that you can move around? Fold laundry, straighten the living room, etc. Wireless setups for landlines can be spendy, but if you typically call in on your cell, you can probably find a reasonably priced bluetooth earpiece.

      1. Dynamic Beige*

        I’ve got one of those, a Plantronics somethingorother and it is the best thing, sliced bread is jealous. If I need a glass of water, I just get up and go get it. Folding laundry is something I should cue up and have standing by for the next conference call, but they unfortunately often revolve around reviewing at least one document. Just being able to answer the phone and not have to cradle it against my shoulder so I can use both hands at the computer is heaven.

        If you can’t afford one of those, Rat Racer, how about a set of hand exercisers — the kind that look like giant clothespins. I would really say check into some kind of headset though, you could be walking around your place, doing all kinds of things if all you have to do is listen and comment.

        1. Anon369*

          Agreed. .. headset is the key. Now I pace around my office and find my recall and attention is SO MUCH BETTER.

    3. The IT Manager*

      Can you stand during these meetings or parts of them to get you away from the keyboard?

      1. Monodon monoceros*

        Yes, definitely get a cat, and if it is like mine, you will use both hands to constantly push it away from the laptop. It’s like a cat magnet or something :)

        1. periwinkle*

          I work from home one day a week. Cat + headset with a tempting microphone to chew on = thank goodness for the mute button.

        2. the gold digger*

          Spring must be coming, because there is cat hair all over my computer from working at home yesterday. There is nothing like being occupied with something important, like making a living, to attract a cat in search of attention. (“It is a truth universally acknowledged…”)

          When I wasn’t pushing the cat away, I was shelling beans.

          1. Dynamic Beige*

            My cats are weird. They don’t want to walk on my computer, they are not interested in it at all. They won’t sit in my lap. They don’t go in cardboard boxes. The only times they really bug me it’s because it’s near feeding time and then they just sit there and stare. I’m torn on whether this is a great thing or if I’m missing out on some sort of universal cat experience.

      2. Vancouver Reader*

        I was going to suggest knitting as well. Just make sure your side is muted so people don’t hear the click click click of knitting needles. Apparently that drives some people to distraction.

    6. Artemesia*

      Can you do a weight routine while on the phone — e.g. use headphones and have a set of small weights so you can do various repetitive weight exercises while talking. This doesn’t take your attention away from content like surfing the net would, but maybe it will keep you focussed. I do this when I have a task that has lots of 5 min down times e.g. I am digitizing negatives at the moment and for each set of 12, there is a 5-8 minutes processing time — too little to engage in something intelligent, but too much to waste — so that is when I do my weight exercises, balance exercises etc.

    7. periwinkle*

      Pipe cleaners, or whatever they’re being called these days. (chenille stems? really?) One of my coworkers handles all the logistics for the week-long training workshops we run. She ensures that every table has a basket full of pipe cleaners so students can keep their hands quietly occupied. Spirals are very popular as people like to just twist the stem around and around their fingers.

    8. Another Rat Racer*

      Puzzles. My entire department is on conference calls all day and our office has puzzles spread out on four empty work stations. You will see us there throughout the day, quietly piecing things together with headsets on.

    9. Cath in Canada*

      A friend of mine does yoga during her conference calls. Mine are all at 5:30 or 6 am, which is way too early for anything other than huddling on the sofa, so I can’t speak for how well it works, but she enjoys it!

    10. MaryMary*

      We spent a lot of time on conference calls at OldJob, so little desk toys were very popular. Try bucky balls (but not if you have small children or curious pets), a slinky, a tangle toy, or a stress ball. Just google fidget toys, and you’ll find a bunch.

  45. Not Today Satan*

    And now that I’ll be working again (soon) I finally have a question that’s not related to job hunting!

    So, at my last job (which happened to be a very toxic environment) there was an aggressively CYA feel to most emails. Like if Mary asked Bob for something and then asked him for it again, instead of responding he would forward his previous response to her. I’m not sure if I’m describing it well. Another example where Mary’s in the wrong might be CCing the person’s boss on the first followup email. But that type of thing always seemed unnecessarily hostile/defensive to me (assuming the first email was cordial/not accusatory). But on the other hand, for a temp job I had recently, the HR rep emailed me asking for documents I had already sent. I didn’t want to risk looking like I didn’t follow directions, so I forwarded my original email (and included a friendly note). What are your thoughts on striking a balance in this regard?

    1. Aussie Teacher*

      I agree with your approach – I don’t like looking as if I’m incompetent so I always reply by forwarding the original email with a friendly note saying “Here they are again – I sent them on [date] but you might have missed them” etc.

    2. Karowen*

      The only thing I would suggest doing differently is get in the habit of attaching the original email to the current one instead of forwarding it. That way the other person can find it easily if they need to keep that trail going or if the subject line had changed. But then, the original situation you described (with resending the email instead of responding) doesn’t seem weird to me.

      1. Not Today Satan*

        The place was toxic and miserable, so it’s hard to figure out what practices are miserable in nature, and which were made miserable by the culture of that place.

  46. Confused*

    I had a strange situation come up at work and I am looking for advice on how this was handled. I work for a small company with about 20 employees. Last year during my annual review in the beginning of 2014, I asked my manager and CEO if there was any system in place for employees to accrue more time off the longer they have been at the company. They got back to me and offered an extra 5 days vacation in lieu of the end year bonus, which usually works out to one weeks pay. I told both that I would want to take advantage of this during 2014 and would love the extra days off. Our time off goes from hire date – hire date, not by the calendar year.

    Fast forward to the end of the year and I did get a bonus in my check, but I assumed that it was a smaller bonus than I would have received if I hadn’t accepted the 5 extra days.

    During the beginning of the year, I took 2 days off, one sick and one scheduled day off. During my sick day I got an email from my manager telling me that I was -2 days for my time off. By my accounting, I actually had 3 days left to take before my time renewed. This went back and forth for a bit and basically they never withheld my bonus and never “gave” me those extra 5 days (there is no official database or anything for time off).

    They are docking my pay this week and taking out 2 days worth of pay to account for the 2 days I took. I am an exempt employee. Is this even legal? I’m just so peeved that I regularly put in 50-60 hour work weeks and they are going to nickle and dime me over 2 days.

    1. Aussie Teacher*

      I can’t answer the legal/exempt side of things, but given you accepted 5 days in lieu of the end of year bonus, you should have queried it when you received an end of year bonus! You’ll need to refer back to your original agreement but if they do agree to give you the 5 days (3 remaining) they may want you to pay back the bonus.

          1. fposte*

            I’m also not sure if it’s kosher to do it retroactively–it sounds they’re docking Confused’s pay during a pay period when Confused worked every day. But that’s a genuine “I’m not sure,” not “they can’t.” Confused, I might give your state DOL a call (there may be stricter state rules than Federal anyway).

            And, as you doubtless already have decided, in future follow up any discussions about employment terms with email laying out the discussion and confirming it. You’re actually taking this better than I would–I’d be pretty ticked off.

            1. Confused*

              I’m very ticked off, but not sure there is much I can do about it. They are taking the 2 days money from a pay period where I worked everyday. The thing that irritates me is how much over time I’ve worked in the past and with my over time, I’d have more than enough hours to cover those 2 days. But this seems to be status quo where I work – they want you to give give give to them, but they do not budge on much.

              1. Chuchundra*

                Docking you for a sick day is a clear violation of the FLSA’s rules for exempt employees. If a company violates these rules, employees can be ruled non-exempt and than sue for all their back overtime.

                You might casually mention this to your boss.

                The other thing you can do is work your 40 hours and go home for a week or two.

        3. Anomanom*

          Actually, they can dock your vacation time for being out, but they can’t dock your pay if you are exempt. So, yes they can force you to use vacation days, but it sounds like they are actually making you take unpaid days, which is not legal if they are paying you as an exempt employee. If you worked one day in the week, you are paid for the week. The only exception being in cases of termination of employment mid week.

  47. Reader With No Name for Post*

    This hasn’t been a good week. I’d researched market value for salaries and based a raise request upon a government pay schedule for our area. This was back in October and there was a lack of funds. We hired 2 new people since then and one has 2 years experience and no CPA license. In PA you need 150 college credits to test for the exam and she told us she doesn’t know if she wants to obtain her CPA license. I have 7 years experience, a CPA license and have been licensed for 2 years.

    Through an indiscretion of my boss leaving papers laying where she shouldn’t have I saw Jane’s pay rate. Her annual salary is $5,000+ more than mine in spite of my experience. The major difference is I worked for Teapot Handles which was bought out by Chocolate Teapots and Teapot Handles had a much lower salary scale. I’m angry because I’ve absorbed the majority of the work of a full-time person who quit and kept all my work plus my workload has grown. My bosses say they’re happy with me but all raises are mostly cost of living which is better than nothing. It’s been a difficult week after seeing that.

    1. Retail Lifer*

      Completely different industry, but this has happened to me at, oh, pretty much every single job I’ve stayed at for any length of time. All of it: being more qualified than new people, new people getting paid more despite that, and having to pick up the slack of either lesser qualified people or that of those that have left but haven’t been replaced. I don’t have any advice, as this just keeps happening to me, but I do sympathize. It sucks.

  48. Eugenie*

    So my boss is retiring later this year and his boss (CFO) is talking about some major re-structuring of our division (of which I am one of the department heads). I know he’s specifically looking at changing the way my team is structured (and potentially looking for a way to eliminate one of my weaker team members). I’m not opposed to that, but as with any kind of re-structuring it makes me nervous. Any tips for weathering the next few months?

    1. Monodon monoceros*

      Not much advice, but for me when things like this are talked about, I like to keep up with what they are talking about doing, but try not to plan too much on those things actually happening. I’ve heard so many times at different jobs that “Management wants to do X” and X never actually happens. So it’s good to know what they are thinking, but don’t waste too much time being either excited, or worried, about those things materializing.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Some retiring bosses can go into a very compassionate mode. If your boss is feeling the compassion, maybe you can ask him what to expect with the restructuring and get an answer that you find consoling.

    3. PoorDecisions101*

      As one of the department heads, I’m guessing you’ll have the chance to have input in the restructuring process.

      My advice is to plan, plan and plan. Think about the worst case scenarios which can happen and the best way to rebuff this by having a spiel ready on the potential harm it could do to the business by going in that direction. Think about the best way you think the department could run and have a spiel ready for that too with all the productivity/cost benefits your alternative could do for the business.

      Make sure to push to have everything planned out prior to making the changes and don’t leave your people floundering for months about what’s going on. Even if it’s just saying that it’s business as usual for now and that you will continue to back them up.

  49. Nobody Here By That Name*

    Semi-related to the poker face discussion from yesterday: how do you deal with coming into work for a company when it no longer aligns with your morals? I’m already looking for another job, so that piece is taken care of. But I’m finding it difficult to be in the office and not call people on the executive team to task for the horrendous way they treated one of our employees.

    I’ve read AAM long enough to know that the way they treated this employee is completely legal. It’s just disrespectful in a way I can’t stomach. How can I keep my head down and my mouth shut without feeling like I’m betraying my own values?

    1. Beancounter in Texas*

      I struggle with that too, as my company has fired people for a list of grievances that stretch back for years, but never actually corrected the employee or warned them in writing. I’ve heard of stories of previous employees being terminated after the same fashion, seen it occur at least twice myself, and sometimes wonder if it’ll happen to me one day.

      I’m also in a position to somewhat advise those in power to fire to hold employees accountable and write up warnings when feasible. I’ve advised to let them know how serious the offense is and when their job is on the line. This is how I cope – I try to change the status quo.

      In your case, think of not burning the bridge for your own benefit. You’ve made your judgment, and you sound disgusted. There are three things you can do about a situation you don’t like: change it, remove yourself from it or accept it (which does not include complaining). If you can communicate in a rational manner and think speaking to someone about it might bring some positive change, then do that. Otherwise, if you cannot respect your company any more and feel your job performance may reflect that, then you’ll have to weigh the importance of your morals against your need for regular income. Good luck.

    2. Elizabeth West*

      The only way I could do this when I had had enough of Exjob was to just stop caring. In my head, I would tell myself, “Not my circus; not my monkeys,” over and over. When something went wrong, I could then deal with it dispassionately instead of getting upset.

      Also, I had people I could vent to offsite. And another thing that helped was this: I would plug my flash drive into my computer and open a Notepad document and save it to the flash drive. Then if someone pissed me off, I could type the most horrendous things into it as a sort of stream-of-consciousness rant, like “Bob is such a [blankety blank blank]. He needs to DIAF. If he bullies Jack one more time, I hope a ceiling beam falls on his head and splats him all over the office. And I am not cleaning it up!” To anyone watching me, it merely appeared that I was typing calmly and busily. In reality, I would discharge those feelings into the Notepad doc where no one but me could see them.

      At the end of the day, I closed it and took the drive home, and as soon as I left the office, I put Bob and the rest of the crap out of my mind for the day. Extra points if the flash drive is password protected, in case you forget and leave it in there. :)

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Depending on how you think the bullied person may react, you could go to him and say “I think what is happening to you is so unfair.”
      I worked a retail job once where a high school student told me she had to quit because she could not watch the boss bad mouth me for one more day. I appreciated her speaking up.
      In turn, I have said similar things to people. I am not sure if that makes me feel more ethical. But sometimes I think that we should put our comments/thoughts in a place where it will do the most good. You might get more result by talking to the person rather than talking to management.

  50. Dang*

    Hey y’all! I wrote in a few weeks ago about my bizarre job offer in academia after a short phone interview.

    Some background: I moved back home after a rough time personally in June 2013. Since then, I’ve applied to hundreds and hundreds of jobs, gone on dozens of interviews and second interviews… with not much luck.

    Last June I accepted a temp to perm position as an admin. The people are fantastic, but having been a temp for 9 months with no sign of an actual perm offer, coupled with the fact that it really has nothing to do with my background/skills, I knew I had to keep looking.

    Then I got the random offer in academia which would require a move. I had never met the people I”d work with and they were insistent that they weren’t available to meet me for another few weeks, well after the deadline for accepting the job. It was in a city I was very interested in moving to, and the job on paper was great, but there were red flags galore.

    Luckily, I’d been interviewing with another place for over a month. Multiple interviews followed by a week of silence and a request for another meeting or phone call. I hadn’t heard after my final interview, so I took the advice AAM has given before and told them I had another offer via email. They offered me the job the very next day, and I just completed the paperwork!

    So after almost 2 years of searching, I got two official offers within two days, and I’m starting my new job (which I don’t have to move for) in 2 weeks!

  51. One-income couples*

    My husband is thinking about going part-time and maybe eventually quitting his job to focus on writing a novel. It’s something I’ve told him we could make work but I’m nervous.

    Financially, we can do this, at least for now. I make upwards of $200K. He makes about a quarter of that and has a long commute. I love my work. He doesn’t like his and is frustrated by not having time to write. It’s starting to seem silly that he commutes an hour each way to a job he doesn’t like when I’m bringing in so much money.

    We’d be fine if he wasn’t working for a while. We might be fine if he wasn’t working forever, as long as my career keeps going the way it has been. I cover most of our household expenses anyway since I make so much more than him, but up until now he’s always had money of his own (we’ve traditionally kept our money separate).

    How do we do this without me starting to resent being the sole wage earner? Does he take on more work around the house? Some other arrangement? What happens if I hit a career bump and he’s been out of the workforce? Isn’t it inherently better (safer) to have two incomes? How do people make this work?

      1. arjumand*

        OH MY GOD. That was really something to read, and then the followup (did you read the followup?).

        Turns out all the supposed bartering he was doing to save them money was nonexistent (there was something about not having anything left in their account at the end of the month because he spent all their money on pot), and when she finally dumped him, while she was relieved, she was still left with his debt to pay off.

        I noticed all the well-wishers with the “YOU DO YOU, GURL” on the initial post were conspicuous in their absence on the followup.

        Just glad that she saw the light, eventually. I mean, just reading the initial post was making me slightly nauseous at the thought of having to support two people on a librarian’s salary.

    2. the_scientist*

      Oh, this is a really interesting question and I’d love to hear other people’s responses! My initial take is that this might be one of those situations where a “side gig” is actually a really good option. Specifically, could your husband do consulting work/copy-editing/tutoring/freelancing or something on a part-time basis? That would allow him to bring in income, potentially work from home or with flexible hours, and have something on his resume in case he wants or needs to get back into the workforce.

      On this issue of resenting being the sole wage-earner, if that’s something you’re really concerned about I’d spend time unpacking that alone and with your husband. I do think it’s perfectly reasonable to ask him to take on more work around the home as a trade-off. It might also be worthwhile to have a ‘deadline’ at which you’ll stop and re-evaluate how the situation is working for both of you. Lots of families do make it work with only one income earner, so it can be done! Although I agree with you that it’s scary to not have that back up if the primary earner gets sick/is laid off etc.

    3. Adam*

      My personal view is: if you are married you are a team. And if you are married then your partner’s personal happiness is JUST AS important to you as your own is.

      *Note the “JUST AS important” is not “MORE important”

      So within the framework that you are a team, you figure out what each person contributes to make it work and feel like you aren’t always doing the heavy lifting with whatever it is.

      Your fear seems to be centered on finances, so I think it’s a good idea to figure out what exactly you’re afraid of. Is there something tangible that you can point to that is a real problem, like you two have a lot of debt you’re paying off, or are you scared of “What ifs?”

      If it’s the former, than you plan how to attack that particular issue in a manageable way until it’s no longer an issue.

      If it’s the later, then you talk it out with each other and decide if there’s any legitimacy to these “What ifs?” or if it’s primarily anxiety. If your career has been going well for a while, is there any reason to think that will suddenly stop? If your husband wants to get a job again, is there any reason to think he won’t be able to?

      Most of the time I think a lot of our fears are driven more by anxiety then any actual dangers. So long as you and your husband are communicating and in agreement with wherever you’re going you can whether the challenges for sure.

      Good luck!

    4. misspiggy*

      Given that with your salary it sounds like a cleaner wouldn’t be a stretch, I’m not sure that him taking on more work in the house is automatically a good idea. If that’s not actually essential, why don’t you discuss in detail what you both want in your lives? Would you shouldering all the wage-earning contribute to his satisfaction in life, and how? What could he do to improve your life satisfaction? You might end up at exactly the same place – he could well do all the housework, if that is really the thing which would make you the happiest – but it would be worth exploring all your options together.

    5. Dr. Johnny Fever*

      My family has done this. In our case, my husband was laid off and wanted badly to be a stay-at-home dad, so we decided to make it work on my salary. He takes care of everything house and school related. I concentrate on work (which has increased in quality without divided attention) and help him at times when I can.

      It can be tough. It will take time to transition. Luckily, he’s OK with being a kept man, and I’m good with working. Try to save or make some sort of cushion in case of career bump, and *communicate* with each other about home, duties, finances, and feelings. Set financial checkpoints to review how your input/output is going so that if your husband has to go back into the workforce he’ll have time to prepare.

      Good luck.

      1. Adam*

        +1 To the financial cushion. Ideally, every household should tally up their monthly hard bills and then save up enough so that if income ever does go away they’ll have savings to get them through 3-6 months, and that savings becomes untouchable until such time you might need it.

        Obviously, that can be difficult and take a lot of time for people to save up, but if the OP’s household is currently bringing in upwards of $250K I can’t imagine it would take too long to get that sorted out unless their finances are out of control.

    6. araminty*

      I did this last year. My husband is the earner, I was burnt out and grumpy all the time, and thought I’d like to concentrate on myself and my own projects for a while. So I took a year off.

      It was… OK. I learned a lot about myself, including that I’m not great with unstructured time. WEEKS would go by when I wouldn’t write a thing, housework piled up, my art was uninspired. I was stuck at home, too, unable to really travel because of the nebulous sense of responsibility I felt to be at home and contributing to some extent, although I took occasional overnight solo camping trips.

      It didn’t cost us much, as a family, in that my earning potential has always been low (my field, combined with where we live) and my lifestyle was really frugal – almost never went out, and the equipment for my creative pursuits (writing and photography) I already had. When I decided to rejoin the work force, I had lots of interviews and found an interesting position relatively quickly, although the salary leaves a lot to be desired. My year off came up occasionally in the job application process, but didn’t seem to be a problem, I just explained that I had been working on personal projects <– useful phrase :)

      Like you, my husband loves his job, and is good at it, and even though his industry is notorious for sudden layoffs, we were always confident that if the worst happened, we had enough financial cushioning to last through a potential job search for him. He was very good about being the breadwinner and didn't make me feel guilty for not contributing financially.

      So that's our experience. I hope your husband can do better than me at working for himself! I did have some warning signs before I went into it – failing NaNoWriMo SEVEN times should have been a red flag, huh? I definitely feel I learned a lot about myself and my priorities, and it's given me food for thought about my future plans.

      1. Dynamic Beige*

        “not great with unstructured time.”

        My questions are sort of related to this comment in that I would want to know if my spouse had a plan. Does your husband have an actual novel in the works, or at least an outline? Does he take part in writers’ workshops, courses or other things to further himself along? There is one that a local college does (I believe it’s all online) where the goal is to complete a novel with the help of an author mentor (one who has had an actual book published, and sometimes semi-famous authors not people who wrote books you’ve never heard of), but they have limited enrollment, it’s hard to get accepted into it and it’s not cheap. Does he currently devote X hours per week working on this novel? Is this fiction or something that would require a lot of research — is there an estimate on how long producing a first draft might take? I’d say along with talking about it, do a trial run for a week. He must have some vacation time that he could use as a bit of a test drive of this new way of living. It may be that he needs a part time job just to limit the time he spends staring at a blank computer screen and give him some structure to his day, it might also be a way to ease into being a full-time writer by only writing for a half day and building up to it. Has he researched methods for working by himself to keep himself motivated? Have you read what he’s written and do you believe in it?

        If you’re OK with him quitting his job to work on his book… but then you have expectations that he’ll do all the housework or have dinner on the table when you get home or ______, you are not going to be happy if he’s blissed out playing Halo all day instead of working on The Great Insert Country Here Novel — justifiably so. You want a partner in life, not a man-child to support. I’m not a writer but it seems to me that anyone who does this has to treat it just like a job, with set hours and estimated times for completion but with no guarantee of a big payoff at the end, I imagine that’s a hard slog. So long as you’ve got a financial cushion and you don’t think your job is in immediate jeopardy and you’re not living some crazy spendthrift lifestyle, you should be fine financially. How you work out whether he should have a part-time job for spending money or you’re going to set up some sort of joint account (if you don’t have one already) that he can use for spending money is up to what you can both work out together. I would also suggest that you discuss a time limit, depending on progress. I mean, you may be OK with him writing for a year, but I doubt you would be OK with it indefinitely. Some people need a lot of time to figure out what they’re good at, where their interests lie/what their passion is and this may be one step in that.

        1. OP for this question*

          These are all good points and resonate with me. You’re right that it would bug me if he was sleeping the day away or playing video games while I work all day. It would bug me a lot. Of course, people need downtime, so we’d need to come to some understanding about what this would look like and what could be a trigger for issues.

          (I do believe in his writing, which I agree is crucial for an arrangement like this.)

          1. Anony-moose*

            This, oh this. About two years ago my partner took some time off. He had chosen not to pursue a PhD program and gave himself about two months to not worry about next steps. He had the financial security to do this and I was fully supportive. He also had a few freelance clients that – in theory – would give him some structure.

            The shit hit the fan for me when I came home one day from a long day of work. He was leaving to visit a friend at 5am the following morning, and all I wanted to do was eat dinner together.

            I walk in. The house is a mess. Dishes in every room. Video games and other leisure activities had been the theme of the day. And then he had to write to meet a client deadline and blew me off for dinner.

            Let me tell you, that was a one-time fight. I was so mad I think he saw quickly that his unstructured time was having a real effect on ME.

          2. Dynamic Beige*

            If you two do decide to go through with this, you might want to have a discussion about him getting a set time to decompress from his previous job and prepare for the day when he starts being a full/part time writer. I mean that maybe after he quits he gets two weeks to just do whatever, including play video games all day long if he feels he needs to do that. To set up his office/writing space if he doesn’t have one already. To play around or experiment if working at Starbucks is better than working at home. I listened to a podcast this week about a company called Focus@Will that has music sets for specific time periods. There are no vocals and it’s designed to help you focus. It was actually a very interesting podcast, especially since a few of their channels offer music for ADHD and the guy explained how it works. I can see though that kind of like a Pomodoro timer, having a service you log into, choose a set period of time and plug in and listen while you work might help restructure your time. I’m considering giving it a try since it’s been occurring to me over the past couple of months that I have problems dealing with unstructured time as well. :/

          3. Elizabeth West*

            +1 for building in downtime. And remember that writing doesn’t always look like writing–sometimes it looks like doing nothing, but there is mental work going on. And I think it’s a good idea for him to have something related to keep his skills up, not to mention to generate at least a little income he can call his own.

            Boy, I wish I could be the next person we hear about here who could end up in a position to write full-time. #jelly :P

    7. AnotherAlison*

      My husband sold one business 10 years ago and started doing what he’s doing now, but it took a while to get traction, so he was working maybe half-time at first (~1-3 yrs).

      I think this could be similar, since your husband is considering part-time working and writing, which is still work but isn’t really WORK.

      One one hand, it was awesome that he could do more of the kid stuff, but he never really cooked or cleaned. (Me neither, ha!) We were okay on my income, but I did find that I resented his toys. My husband has a few very expensive hobbies. The only other problem is that some of my husband’s friends are dicks and would make comments about him doing “nothing” while I was the “man” of the house. So, if you can work out how disposable income gets allocated and your husband’s friends are more progressive, it can be fine, but be prepared for unexpected stressors to arise.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Oh, it’s work.

        Imagine doing homework every day for at least a few hours at a time. For six months. When you’re done with the first draft, then the REAL slog begins (revision, editing, etc. etc.).

        It’s most definitely work.

    8. puddin*

      I am doing this now. Mr puddin is completing school for his BS and does not work outside the home. We do not have the same income as you, but we are upper middle class with my salary alone. It took me a while to wrap my head around the fact that he was not just laying around the house. I had to get over that hump. But a person’s value – especially a spouse’s – is not based on their income. I learned that it was all about money from my Mom growing up – I had to unlearn it for this arrangement to work. (Oddly one of the things that helped me navigate this was arguing with my mom, justifying my decisions to her.)

      Mr puddin did take on the role of house husband, but he is better at that than I am and much more of a caretaker than me. That decision had just as much to do with my lack of domestic talents as it does with the fact that he had more time at home. You may need to try a few different ‘contribution strategies’ to find the one that fits for the both of you. I will tell you that once he is back in the workforce, we are getting a cleaning person. The idea is that no one should feel taken advantage of. So, lots of thank yous, appreciation, and open communication about what the expectations are.

      If your career hits a bump, then you change course. Its not like he is going to forget how to have a job. He can always seek employment again. It might be more difficult without being employed but plenty of people do it all the time; its not impossible. To feel ‘safer’ live on 1/2 your current income. or some portion of it. Savings will help you be guarded against poor economies. I do not think that two incomes is necessarily safer because frankly most people end up spending them both anyway. Savings is the key to relative stability through rough patches. Frankly, at your income level I will assume you have liquid assets that you can use in case of emergencies like a house, downgrade the car(s), other stuff.

      I do feel some pressure sometimes – days I wish I could rage quit (which I would not do anyways, but certainly not as the sole earner) or days when I want to take that totally cool looking non-profit job that pays diddly. However, I think of myself as very very lucky (and proud of myself) to have an income where I can help the person I love the most achieve their dreams in the most ideal way possible.

      Good luck to both of you!

    9. Mike C.*

      Since in many ways you and your husband are already a joint legal entity, I think you need to start treating your money the same way. There were times where my wife was making more than I was, and now the reverse is true. The way I look at it is that the person spending less time working should be taking on more of the other adult responsibilities.

      At the same time, writing is a full time job, is it not? So you may wish to take that into account as well.

      The best thing to do is sit down with your husband and sort all this stuff out. Come to an agreement where expectations are laid out, there are backup plans if stuff happens and give each other permission to revisit the issue down the road.

      1. LTX*

        I agree with all of this. For several years my husband was a SAHD and now he works primarily from home, and I out-earn him by quite a bit. We approach everything from money to cleaning the shower as a team, and we negotiate and re-negotiate who will do what all the time.

        One big trick to out-earning your spouse is this: don’t treat money as mine and yours; treat it as OURS and make decisions accordingly. That bonus I get at year-end isn’t MY bonus, it’s ours because all our family members make sacrifices so I can work full time. The gifts my husband gets on Pastor Appreciation Day aren’t his, they belong to our family because being a pastor’s wife or pastor’s kid ain’t always easy. Also, decide what your spending threshold will be and agree to discuss all purchases over that amount in advance; it cuts down on arguments after the fact.

        Mike C.’s point about writing being full time is very important–just because your partner is at home doesn’t mean he’s available to pick up dry cleaning or watch the kids or call the cable company, so don’t just EXPECT him to do those things, rather ask politely and negotiate when needed.

        The most important part will be communication–and I can’t emphasize that enough. Go into this with the attitude that by giving him space to pursue what he loves, it’ll benefit the whole family. Best of luck!

      2. jamlady*

        I agree. My husband and I do not keep anything separate, especially our finances, because we’re partners. We’ve legally joined in order to build a life together, so everything we give and take is done for us as a couple and agreed upon as a couple. We have a budget we agree on and set monthly – if something needs to change, we discuss it. It’s out life together

        1. jamlady*

          Ugh that submitted before I was done, but my point is, I can’t imagine how much harder it would be if we had lines drawn in our marriage.

      3. Mike C.*

        Just as an aside, this isn’t the easiest thing in the world to do, and it’s something my wife and I are always working on. It’s a process.

        Besides, what happens when he becomes a world-wide best selling author and he’s making 10x what you are? Got to get in on the ground floor here! :D

    10. Maxwell Edison*

      We are more like one-and-a-half income. After I quit Toxic Job last December, my husband became the main wage earner and I am freelancing from home (I’m an editor – please don’t judge my skills based on what I post here!). The idea is that we live off what he makes and all my income goes into savings for big occasional expenses (things like property taxes). So far, so good. I’m much happier, which makes him happy. I’m better able to keep track of the Young Master Edison’s homework. So far the one thing that isn’t working is my fiction writing, as my freelance editing hours sometimes can be a bit erratic. I may take a month off later this year to bang out the next book. So far the toughest part has been reminding spouse and kid (who are both of the “consider the lilies of the field” school of finance) why can’t throw around money the way we used to.

    11. Artemesia*

      I would have a very clear time frame for this and talk through the potential problems. It is one thing for him to focus on writing but too many people end up lying around, procrastinating, playing video games and never getting words to paper. I personally know if a man who did what your husband proposes to do and it is years later and he has never submitted anything to a publisher. Does he have a well developed idea and some initial work done. What is his time frame. What is his plan to get it reviewed by a publisher? What does he think a reasonable time should be before he looks for full time work again.

      The trap of procrastination and the worker bee feeling used is so common that it should be openly discussed. And if he is home writing, he should also be doing most of the cooking or some similar set of household responsibilities so you are not doing all the support, working full time and commuting and then coming home to wait on him.

      Lots of people can’t be self disciplined enough to do this. This needs to be hammered out on the front end so it doesn’t become a giant elephant in the marriage.

    12. VintageLydia USA*

      We’ve been a single family income for almost 6 years and the first few of those we had no kids (which takes up all my time now.) One thing that is really important for us is every penny he earns is mine as well (and the few times I earn money doing odd jobs or temping, the same applies.) This started when we were both earning about the same amount and we were living pay check to pay check so pulling everything into one pot was essential just to cover the bills. So right now we pay the bills, obviously, and I go shopping for things like groceries and household supplies (and he knows that even though I’m shopping at Target, the vast majority of what I’m bringing home is for both our benefit or more likely lately for the spawn.) But he doesn’t begrudge it when I buy art supplies or clothes or whatever and I don’t begrudge him buying the things he likes. It’s all within the budget.

      I think what happens for a lot of couples that aren’t used to operating this way is the person who earns the money gets annoyed when the person who doesn’t earn money spends some on themselves, while at the same time the earner going out to lunch often or buying themselves things much more frequently. It can create an imbalance where the non-earner feels guilty going to lunch with a friend once a month but otherwise staying home and not feeling like they can do anything or buy themselves even something small while the earner is going out to lunch every day and buying themselves things at a much more frequent rate.

      One thing my husband and I talked about doing is setting aside an allowance for both us. We both get an EQUAL amount of money to spend or save as we see fit separate from the household budget that would cover food, household goods, and things for the sprog. Right now we do things free form but Mr. Vintage recently realized that I spend next to no money on myself and *he* feels guilty about that. (I mean, I do feel guilty spending money. It’s not like I’m not doing anything during the day but I feel weird going out and buying a nice pair of jeans and stupid stuff like that–totally my hang up and nothing he’s put on me. We can certainly afford it. If I had my allowance to do whatever with knowing everything else is covered I would feel more comfortable occasionally treating myself.)

    13. Jean*

      Chiming in as a serious avocational poet (mostly unpublished, but 30+ years of seriously writing poetry & occasional prose):

      Writing is _definitely_ work even if it provides scant if any pay or other indicators of employment (workplace, coworkers, office politics, dress code, clear-ish paths for advancement)! The writer needs time to write, edit, and revise but also needs time, space, and energy to gather/research background information. Depending on the project and the writer, one may or may not also have writing peers, a writing group, or collaborators. Similarly one may or may not network with colleagues or attend public readings and/or other cultural events. Finally, writing demands commitment and consistency and being in shape. (Athletes, dancers, and musicians have similar requirements. I’m sure that bench chemists, real estate lawyers, waitresses, and administrative assistants also have rigorous “being in the groove” requirements; they just aren’t as frequently discussed by the general society.)

      FWIW my own writing has always been fitted in–or ignored–amidst the other business of living, ranging from mid-twenty-something angst to mid-thirty-something career changes to mid-forties complications of parenting a child with Asperger’s syndrome. Not to mention marriage, moving, maintaining friendships, and managing the usual business of adulthood…

    14. C Average*

      I am basically the equivalent of your husband in this equation. In three weeks I am leaving my low-paying, going-nowhere, frustrating, creativity-sucking corporate job to spend the indefinite future writing from home.

      I’m doing so with the expectation that I’m going to be 90% responsible for the administrative household tasks: everything from keeping the house clean to doing the shopping to schlepping my stepkids where they need to go. By taking on the sole-breadwinner mantle, he’s giving me the freedom to be creative. I’m planning to give him the freedom to give his all at work and to come home to minimal responsibilities.

      I have some recurring freelance writing and editing work I’m committing to, in part because I want to have some “fun” money that’s mine alone and that I don’t have to ask for. I also plan to build up a bigger freelance portfolio, in part because every bit of notoriety I can gain as a writer will help when the novel does go to press. (And yes, I know it’s possible no publisher will want it, no one will read it, etc., but right now I’m focused on the “just write the damned thing” part.) And I have some creative endeavors I’m taking on that will bring in some money. I’m open to the possibility that any of these things–writing, editing, or crafts–could grow into a bigger part of my working-from-home life.

      I’m also committed to doing enough quantifiable work that even while I’m focusing on the novel, at no point will it become dishonest for me to call myself a freelance whatever on my resume. If something does happen to his job and I need to return to working a day job, I want to be able to produce evidence–a successful blog, published clips, documented projects–that I’ve been working productively all along. I need side gigs that can easily be parlayed into full-time gigs should the need arise.

      I’m also looking for ways I can make our lifestyle less costly through my being at home. I’ll be able to cook more meals, make more homemade food, and shop more strategically. I’m hoping some of this will make up for what we’ll lose by me stepping out of the corporate workforce.

      It’ll be interesting to see how this all plays out. We’ve been having a lot of conversations about it, including the logistics.

      I suspect my biggest difficulty may be in staying out of the comments section on AAM when I should be writing. I’ve actually been thinking a lot about how to structure my day to ensure that I get to spend quality time writing AND spend time here!

    15. the gold digger*

      My husband, who was the big wage earner (he was making twice what I make), is taking a one-year sabbatical. The deal is that he is now in charge of laundry and housecleaning and snowshoveling and cutting the grass and in general, all the stuff around the house that I did when he was working and I was not.

      I get home from work and everything is (mostly) done. (And then he finishes it while I just want to relax, which I find really annoying.) It’s nice not to have to do chores any more, but I would still rather have the money.

    16. Not So NewReader*

      I was just talking about this today with someone. They made a good point. The non-working spouse has to be ready for a sudden change in plans. For example: If the working spouse gets injured and needs to reduce their hours. Or- and this is more subtle- the injured working spouse just needs to know that there is money coming in from another source. Injuries can be expensive and can drain a tight budget, even if the working spouse is able to keep working. The point was there are times where psychologically the working spouse needs to have the non-working spouse at least get a temporary PT job. It’s something to be aware of.

      In my own marriage, I think one thing that saved a lot of hassle was that we each had our own discretionary money. This was a modest amount of money that was a no fly zone. Whatever the other one purchased with the money, no comment was made. If there is space in the budget for discretionary spending, setting up a no fly zone for modest amounts of spending can be allow for some breathing room for both partners. If he came home with a gizmo very similar to the other ten gizmos he already had, I said nothing because that was his discretionary money to use as he chose. Likewise with me. It felt good just to turn a blind eye, rather than fret over the expenditure.

    17. Snoskred*

      I think to-do lists are super important in this situation. Just this morning I had another example of why.

      I have a to-do day planner and I list all my planned tasks for my weekdays. The reason for this is simple – if I do not write things down that need doing, I can forget them and get lost in a temporal vortex eg binge watching teevee or reading on the web. I love ticking things off the list, it is super awesome, plus, when the other half wonders what I did today, he knows where to look. Because if you are constantly asking someone who is at home while you are at work “What did you do today” that can be a bit confronting and cause arguments.

      The Other Half who works can add things to my to-do list. On weekends, we usually both have to do lists – stuff we would like to get done by the end of the weekend. However today The Other Half got started on his jobs without writing a list, without checking my list and without letting me know what he planned. So, some things got done twice. I did not realise until I was scooping the kitty litter and I was all.. hmm.. there is nothing in here and it has been 24 hours since I scooped this! At which point I thought maybe there had been a miscommunication and I asked if he had already done it. Of course he had, and he’d done all the things I was *about* to do.

      I also think a discussion about things you would like the staying at home person to do is something that needs to happen before you sign off on this plan. :) EG I do the cooking for the most part and we meal plan.

      The more you discuss and plan in advance, the less likelihood of feeling resentful because the other half is not reading your mind and doing things you mentally expect them to do. Plus, if you use a to do list and you forget to put something on there, that is on you not on the other half. :)

      Unless of course he is psychic and a mind reader. In that case, he ought to get into doing readings because there could be serious money in that! ;)

  52. SystemsLady*

    Let me do some unhealthy venting about a hotshot temp I’ve had to deal with lately. (Background: He’s very junior career wise to everybody in the department – not entry level but very close – and is only a temp because his first job offer choice was another job with a much later start date):

    * It being conference championship/NCAA season, we recently took a late lunch hour in the conference room (which has a TV) to watch the second half of a game that ended very, very poorly for the team the people in there would’ve been supporting. This guy openly says he isn’t a sports fan but joined us for the free food. He stayed in there after he finished eating and mostly spent his time, but in particular the last 5 minutes of the game, making fun of the frustrated reactions of the people watching the game.
    * He aparently made a sales meeting he got dragged into go badly by butting in to spend time expounding on how good he is at [system Y we sometimes interface with that isn’t sold by our company]. I don’t know the details, but knowing the customer, there was no reason for him to even be talking about system Y.
    * In relation to another project that only tangentially involves system Y, he outright said “yeah, I’m better at system Y than [one of the best workers in the department]”. Directly to said worker.
    * He added to a conversation we were having about a bad, but definitely one-off thing by saying “yeah, that’s why I didn’t take this job”.
    * He regularly makes fun of the quirks of various people in the department have in a non-friendly fashion, and in a way that’s not appropriate for somebody who’s been here for a month.
    * Whenever somebody asks a senior coworker for advice and he’s around, he butts in and give his own advice. Advice that usually corresponds exactly with what the person asking for advice was trying to avoid doing.

    Pretty much nothing I can do about this guy, aside from avoiding contact with him as much as I can, and he’s gone in 3 months anyway, so I’m just trying to ignore it and act ~super~ nice to him. It would be hard for HR to boot him, and frankly we need the help with “busy work” until the next new person arrives.

    Happy Friday…and good luck to the company that permanently snagged this snowflake!

    1. LillianMcGee*

      How do people survive being completely oblivious of their own behavior like this??? I’ll never understand.

      1. SystemsLady*

        If you’re in the first stages of bulldozing yourself a career, you probably don’t care.

        Though why you’d bother with the whole routine at a company 1) you’re temping at & 2) won’t compete with or even run into at your “real” job is beyond me.

    2. Nom d'pixels*

      Make sure that the boss knows what is going on. Several years ago, we had a temp with a horrible attititude, but apparently, she knew how to put on a good face for the boss and was hired permanently. Several of us wished we had spoken up instead of just assuming that it was obvious.

      1. Artemesia*

        This. And perhaps ask if the temp can be even more temporary than planned and someone better hired. But make sure each disaster is documented and well known to the boss so he can not be easily continued by someone who ‘didn’t know.’

        And someone should be managing this jerk.

        1. SystemsLady*

          The manager has been out these past two weeks, so that’s part of why he’s been so bad.

      2. SystemsLady*

        With that and some info I got today about his next job “offer”, definitely going to keep that in mind (we are noticing he’s trying to suck up to the boss as well, but it seemed petty to mention it).

        My boss was there for the sales meeting that went sour, so maybe he’ll listen to us if we speak up.

        But the hiring situation in our field is tough enough that I’m afraid he’d keep him anyway if he asks, so my bigger hopes lie in hotshot temp continuing to think this job is as beneath him as he clearly thinks it is.

        Thanks!

    3. BethRA*

      Can they not get another temp? I get putting up with someone being an annoying asshat, but shouldn’t messing up a sales meeting get him the boot?

      I don’t get whey people act like this, but I really don’t get why companies keep them around.

      1. SystemsLady*

        Ironically, precisely due to it being a big/frequent client, everything ended up OK, but the client was apparently noticeably annoyed.

        I’m not privy to the details so I’m not sure how blatant it was.

        I’m hoping at the very least the boss stops bringing him in front of clients (there’s no reason to with what he’s doing). But it happened shortly before he went on vacation, so I’m not sure.

    4. Observer*

      As the others say, let his boss know. Also, see if you can make sure that HR knows – you want this in his file so that if it comes up again with a position for another manager, the information it there.

  53. puddin*

    So I read this in a job posting…LMFAO. The company has very similar messages on its web/LI/FB presence.
    • Must be computer and web savvy. Rocket science is not required – just the ability to type quickly, use multiple applications simultaneously, and refer to Google as “Google” and not “The Google.”

    And can I just add that asking me questions like “do you want to work for a company that provides great hours and really great pay?” or any of those ‘intro’ questions in a job posting are a huge pet peeve, almost red flag, of mine. It just seems so unprofessional to me. Am I being too picky?

    1. Dang*

      I think they come across as corny and trying too hard. I don’t think I’d rule out applying just for the cheesiness, but I might be on higher alert if I went in for an interview.

    2. SystemsLady*

      I was going to say the next step is companies asking you to prove you know memes to get hired, but I remembered I read a picture of a job posting with a requirement to compose a meme just the other day! Wish I remembered where that was…

    3. Colette*

      They don’t bother me, but what do they want you to say? “No, actually, I want to work for a company that wants me to work every second hour of the day, for minimum wage or less.”

  54. Violet Rose*

    A brief quote from the CEO Who Says Terrible Things.

    The scene: we are catching glimpses of the solar eclipse through the clouds, walking the fine line called “cloudy enough to catch a glimpse without searing your retinas”, when the sun disappears behind said cloud for the umpteenth time. CEO says, in the tone of someone who is just expecting a laugh, “we should have a ritual sacrifice of a female in the office.”

    Guess who holds the title of “only woman in the office”.

    HOW DOES ONE EVEN RESPOND TO THAT???

    And thank you to the people who replied last week – I got caught up in the week-end and didn’t check the thread for a few days, but the responses flipped the switch in my head from “this guy annoys me and that’s why the things he says annoy me” to “this guy annoys me and the things he says ARE SOMETIMES ACTUALLY TERRIBLE”. I haven’t done any serious legwork, but I’ve started thinking about what I want to do and what skills I should brush up on to beef up my resume/portfolio.

    4. Jennifer*

      I’d probably make a comment about going out to commit seppuku and then get my ass fired, so maybe you shouldn’t listen to me…

      But seriously, you can’t respond publicly, you just end up fuming privately.

      Also, WTF?!??

    6. Not So NewReader*

      “Because they have laws about that type of thing. They will tell the police it was your idea.”

      “Boss, you need to get modern. Current thinking is that bosses go first.”

    7. Elizabeth West*

      Gah! This CEO is the one who should be sacrificed, IMO. :P Too bad someone couldn’t say, “Who says it has to be a female? Let’s go, boss!”

      Off-topic, and I know this sounds mean, but I was evilly glad to hear that it was so cloudy. Made me feel less awful about not being in London and missing the eclipse. And all the cloud tweets on Twitter were funny. We were supposed to have northern lights way down here because of the solar storm, but we missed those too. Yep, you guessed it–clouds. :P

      1. Violet Rose*

        Hah, makes perfect sense to me – it meant your entire Twitter feed was one, big, comforting, “You didn’t miss much!” I remember once being really bitter that I couldn’t make it to a certain convention, only to have my bitterness turn to relief (with just a *pinch* of smug glee) to hear that the convention utterly tanked. It wasn’t DashCon, if that means anything to you, but played out in a very similar fashion.

  55. NBF*

    Please assure me this isn’t how all hiring processes work.

    I haven’t job searched in 7 years when I got my current job, but I am beginning to search again in a new location. I applied for a really great job in late February. The application deadline was at the end of February, one week after the job was initially posted. I didn’t hear anything at all until this week and had mentally moved on. This Tuesday, I got an email from them asking to do a telephone interview Wednesday morning, and that that was the only day they would be conducting interviews. Unfortunately I was out of the country on vacation with no cell service and no wifi for Skype at the requested time (I tend to vacation in remote locations) and too little notice to arrange to have the ability to call the next morning. They were not able to accommodate a telephone interview on any later date.

    This was a director level job, and would not have a very big pool of qualified applicants. It would have been a great opportunity for me, and although the location wasn’t perfect, the job itself would have suited my skills and strengths perfectly. It was just really frustrating to me that I heard nothing for three weeks after the application deadline, and then got one day notice for telephone interviews that were performed one day only.

    1. Dawn*

      No, that’s totally ridiculous. Like, “what the hell are they thinking” levels of ridiculous. It’s very flippant of them to assume that everyone who applied to the job could drop everything and schedule a phone call with less than 24 hours notice. Definitely not a company you would want to work for!

    2. Elizabeth West*

      I agree with Dawn. It sounds more like a way to weed out candidates than actually find anyone good. “Welp, we’ll schedule it for this one day and anyone who can’t do it goes right into the round file. That should cut down on these applications!” Or just stupidly disorganized.

      Bullet dodged!

  56. applicant*

    Mostly just looking for some commiseration from other applicants. I had two phone interviews for a very specialized dream job. Things were moving very quickly – i.e., HR calling to set up interviews in very quick succession, with an ‘as soon as possible’ attitude – and seemed to be going well. The second call ended with the hiring manager waxing effusive about how we were going to work something out to bring me onto the team and that he was going to have HR set up a final call to introduce me to another team member. That was a week ago. Radio silence. Nobody on the team or HR is out of the office (inside source). Yes, I’m moving on, applying to other jobs, etc. But what is taking so long??

    1. AnonForNow*

      I’m in a somewhat similar situation. I am being considered for a position that currently has no other applicants, is very specialized, located in a remote area I happen to be headed to, and the position was moving fast. Multiple interviews, references checked, expressed serious interest, etc. and now I’ve been waiting. I just try to remind myself that A) no call had come in saying I didn’t get it so I’m still being considered and B) these people have more pressing matters than hiring and interview processes always get placed on the back burner. It’s a waiting game and patience is key (even if you’d rather just know right now haha).

    2. Dawn*

      HR is “busy”, or someone else got hit by a bus and now there’s an emergency scramble to fill their position, or something else came up and HR is dealing with that instead, or HR is reviewing your application materials to make sure that they are in line with the results of their ritual chicken sacrifice and entrail readings that they do before bringing in anyone new.

      I don’t mean to sound super jaded buuuuuut… I have never seen an HR department (in a company larger than 50 people) that moved quickly on hiring. Deep breath, I’m sure this time next week you’ll have good news!

  57. Anonsie*

    Any strong reactions to NPR’s income spreads for what constitutes middle class in a few American cities?

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2015/03/19/394057221/how-much-or-little-the-middle-class-makes-in-30-u-s-cities

    I had been wondering for a long time where my own salary hit on the spread for this city, but this was actually a bit of a gut punch for myself and a few of my friends. We’re all well below the 25th percentile for our cities. Most of us came from very solidly working class backgrounds and we’ve all been trying most of our lives to achieve some level of upward mobility through various means, and we’ve all always struggled with money but not as much as our parents did. I suppose we’ve always attributed that to The Way Things Are. We were looking at this last night, though, and I think there was an overall feeling that we had not made the strides we felt we had. I know intellectually that it doesn’t matter what percentile you’re in, but I was left with a rather defeated feeling that there isn’t a way for me to get all the way up to that median.

    1. AnotherAlison*

      Keep in mind this particular set of data is family income and it’s all ages. I didn’t see this one before, but I looked through a similar Pew study that had data by household size and age. If you are 45 and a family of four below the 25th percentile, that’s different than if you are 25 and single.

      1. Mike C.*

        I think it would be more useful to look at age cohorts over time with inflation adjusted numbers for an area.

    2. literateliz*

      Did you see this? “This counts only families, which the government defines as households with two or more people related by birth, marriage or adoption.” So that income would be for a married couple.

      As a single in San Francisco, I had the opposite reaction–I’m actually kind of shocked to see that I might almost scrape the bottom of the 25th percentile on my own if I hustle up enough freelance work this year. With so many people telling me the sky is falling, I kind of appreciate the reality check.

      1. Anonsie*

        Yeah, most of us are married or partnered and I’d say about half of us have at least one child.

        1. Anonsie*

          Wait, that wasn’t clear. I am talking about whole family income here, nearly all of us qualified as families by that definition.

        2. AnotherAlison*

          Well, I can still kind of see that not being that unusual. My sister’s cohort falls in that bucket. She’s 28 and got hung up by the recession. She got a job last fall that brings her out of that lower bracket, but until then she was even with her cohabitating BF. Don’t be too hard on yourself.

          1. AnotherAlison*

            Can I also say that I always want to be helpful and motivational when this type of convo comes up, but I always feel like an asshole instead?

    3. fposte*

      It’s interesting info, but I think they’re making a huge mistake by treating “median income” and “middle class” as synonymous.

      And I think Another Alison has a particularly good point on the age front–this includes people who’ve been working for 20, 30, 40 years. It’d be interesting to see it done for each age bracket.

        1. fposte*

          Heh. Yeah, that would be disheartening for those of us outside of that industry. But I still think they’re way off in confusing “median” with “middle class,” and you’ve just illustrated another reason why. After all, you don’t suddenly fall out of the middle class if a research park moves in next to you and ups the local salary average.

    4. Mike C.*

      If the bands are wide (and they get really, really wide at 90% and above), it leads to (and already has in some cases) lead to very serious economic issues. That’s why you see minimum wage increases popping up all over the place, regardless of the “color” of the state and so on.

      Wage stagnation is a very real thing, and it’s been going on for 40 years.

  58. accounting princess*

    I think someone (potential future employer) hit reply instead of forward on an email to me. The email is addressed to another person, and I don’t see her CC’ed. Should I politely point out that maybe the email was supposed to go to someone else? He could have done a BCC, so I don’t know. I just had a phone interview with him, and the email is asking the other person to set up an 2nd phone interview with me.

  59. All Aboard the Failboat*

    Can y’all tell me some of your experiences with six hour marathon interviews? I had one this week and totally blew it because it felt like an interrogation (This is why they don’t trust me with government secrets, I suppose.) I’m not a public speaker (which is why I write for a living) though I can fake it for an hour or two max. Do these happen outside of hip/fresh/young startup-vibe companies? How do you prepare differently for these? Thanks!

    1. Stephanie*

      I did one for a big consulting company. It was exhausting. And for some reason, we didn’t do lunch, so I was famished by the end of the day. (I was lucky the guy at breakfast gave me extra pieces of sausage.)

      I interviewed with everyone on the team (including a peer). The last interview ran over and I was flying back home the same day. And this was in LA, so a little voice in the back of my head was like “OMG, traffic! Will I make it?” In retrospect, this was silly, as they would have just rebooked me (short-haul flight in the same neck of the country, so there were other flights).

      In terms of prep, I asked for my interviewers beforehand and researched them. I had different questions for the junior analyst versus the practice lead. I also made sure my answers were consistent between interviews. If you’re ok with riffing in the interviews, you can also use what the previous interviewers said as a basis for questions (“Oh, Wakeen said earlier that your team has a strong focus on client-driven solutions. Can you comment on that?”)

    2. Kelly L.*

      I had an interview for an admin position in academia that wasn’t 6 hours long, but it was definitely long. I had a regular interview, followed by an interview by another person in the department, followed by what almost amounted to a training on their special software. It got so into the weeds on this software that I felt pretty sure they were hiring me*. Nope. I got a rejection email the next day.

      *Mostly based on the job I’d had before that, where I went in to interview and the department chair forgot to actually tell me I was hired, but just started launching into what she’d have me doing on my start day, etc. I thought it was hypothetical, but she’d just missed a step! :D I loved her. I worked there for almost 10 years.

    3. EmilyG*

      This is common in my industry. I’ve gotten used to it, even though as an introvert I find it completely, utterly exhausting. My only tips are that it really helps to know it’s going to be like that in advance (I always have), use bathroom breaks or any 15 minutes they give you as a break to be really zen (somehow get your “introvert downtime” out of it at hyperspeed?), and be prepared to utterly crash afterwards. I think after my first one I ate 3/4 of a pizza and slept for 11 hours (but I got the job).

      1. Stephanie*

        Oh yeah, I completely crashed after the one I mentioned above. I went to Panda Express (it was on the ground floor of the building), ate an obscene amount of orange chicken and then passed out on the plane (for all 45 minutes of my flight).

        1. CheeryO*

          +1

          I ate an entire small pizza and then proceeded to sleep through a 15 hour train ride (my flight got cancelled because of a snow storm back home).

      2. All Aboard the Failboat*

        Glad yours worked out for you! What industry are you in, if you don’t mind me nosing?

        That’s one of the things that threw me off about mine – No breaks at all! Just one after the other after the other. By the time one person was done with me, the other was waiting by the door.

        1. EmilyG*

          Libraries, but I’ve done an interview in another industry that was also a full day. Actually, my non-library one was the only time there were official breaks, but that was even more harrowing because after each 45 minute session, they’d go elsewhere and confer about whether to keep interviewing you or reject you right then. In my library interviews, I often ended up with de facto breaks where the interviewers themselves got worn out and ran out of questions.

          It has also helped me to keep reminding myself “most people I know in this industry are genuinely nice; these are just nice librarians I haven’t met yet.”

        3. Calacademic*

          This was how my interviews were (academic and industry). One was 2 days of back-to-back-to-back interviews. It was really uncomfortable to even have to use the restroom as someone had to wait outside to escort me to my next destination.

    4. CheeryO*

      I had a marathon interview for an entry-level engineering consulting job in a big northeastern city. They flew me in, so I imagine it would have been a couple separate interviews if I were local. I met with three different teams of two, as well as HR and the CEO, and I had lunch with a couple junior employees. I think it was about five hours, total. It was hard, especially as someone who does not particularly enjoy being the center of attention.

      I think the rush of being in a new city (and flying by myself for the first time!) made it survivable for me. I was firing on all cylinders, and I thought that the progression of interviews (from behavioral to lightly technical to super technical to the conversation with the CEO about The Future of The Company) felt pretty natural. I also felt like I immediately fit in, culturally, which really put me at ease.

      I think preparation is key for marathon interviews. I had quite a few questions prepared, and I wasn’t shy about expanding upon things that I had learned earlier in the day with the higher-ups. Also, I think it’s doubly important to get a good night’s sleep, eat breakfast, and keep hydrated so your brain doesn’t shut down on you.

    5. Just Another Techie*

      My company does those, for a couple reasons. One, we want the candidate to get a good sense of what the team is like, so she interviews with six or seven different people. Two, we want to insulate ourselves from making a bad decision because one person on the team is having a bad day, or thought the candidate looked too much like their dad, or didn’t like the candidates shoes, or whatever other stupid reason. Three, we really don’t want to deal with the hassle of bringing a candidate in for multiple interviews. One and done–after the day long interview you’ll either get an offer or be cut loose (and told about it).

      So what do we expect? We definitely don’t expect sparking witty banter all day. We’ve all been through the same wringer and remember how exhausting it was. We also don’t expect high marks on every single portion of the technical interview; as long as you ace at least some of them it’s okay to be a bit weak on others. We want to see how you hold up under stress, since sometimes our work can be very stressful. Can you mostly keep it together or do you crumble? We want to see how you react to being asked something you can’t possibly be expected to know already, because we want to know what it’s going to be like stuck at a whiteboard with you when we’re all having a “Our director promised the customer WHAT in the WHAT NOW” moment.

      And we’re definitely not a hip young startup company. The company is older than I am :)

  60. TotesMaGoats*

    I’ve actually had a whole week where I didn’t actively hate my job. Maybe it was the added sunshine? I do have a story to relate. And not so much a “what should I have done” but “how do I mitigate my attitude on this”

    So, after a big team meeting (our whole division), there was a non-mandatory happy hour. And it was actually a voluntary thing. I went. My boss, who I actively dislike, was buying a round. I’m not going to turn down a free drink. I did pick the most expensive one though. :) I do the chat thing and then have to leave. And two things happened.

    1. My VP turns and goes to give me a side hug and I think, accidentally, kissed my forehead right at my hairline. I said I think accidentally because we’re a pretty demonstrative group and hugging and cheek kissing aren’t out of the norm. Also, he’s really tall and even in heels I’m pretty short. I think he didn’t gauge the lean down to rest his head on mine properly. I found the whole thing amusing all weekend long.

    2. Then I turn to my AVP, and he grips me in an incredibly tight side hug. He is holding my shoulder so tight that it almost hurts. Our faces our so close I could count the pores on his face. I don’t know how much he’d consumed at that point but he’s never done that before. He goes on and on about how this is going to be a great year, a great year. Things are going to be great. And I’m just like “uh huh”. And trying to pull away. He finally lets me go.

    I’ve never been so uncomfortable. And normally, I think it wouldn’t have fazed me but because I’m so irritated by him on a regular basis I can’t let it go. Any advice on that?

    1. Violet Rose*

      Oh, wow. I know that would make ME super uncomfortable –you are well within bounds to feel awkward, uncomfortable, put-upon, or skeeved out!

      Paradoxically, I sometimes feel less bothered if I give myself permission to feel bothered, or if someone else agrees, “Yeah, that was kind of weird.” It removes the layer of, “I don’t think this should bother me, why does it bother me?” (How many times can I say bother in a short paragraph?)

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I think I would consider saying something to the AVP or to your own boss. There was really no need for tugging on you like that. It sounds like it beyond the norms for even this huggy group.

      I don’t mind hugs and I would find that awkward. And if he smelled like alcohol, I’d have a real problem.

      I usually autopsy situations like this so I can prepare something to say. I may never need it, but I hate getting caught speechless. I think here I would have said “okay you made your point. Let go. Right now.”

    3. Elizabeth West*

      I’m thinking it was probably the alcohol. Maybe the AVP was trying to copy the VP and it just turned into awkward? I wouldn’t worry about it too much.

      But then, I’m the kind of person where if someone squish-hugs me, I say, “We have to stop meeting like this!” or I make I-can’t-breathe noises or something.

  61. Holly*

    I know there’s a billion articles about this online, but I want to know AAM’s community’s thoughts: what do you do to combat exhaustion and burnout on the job? (excluding talking to your manager/boss about reducing workload, etc., as that isn’t an option.)

    1. AnonEMoose*

      I try to do little things to take care of myself. Taking a short walk when things get super stressful. Indulging in a cup of hot chocolate from the coffee shop. A very hot shower when I get home. Whatever small thing makes me feel a little better, plus trying to have very firm boundaries between work and home. I take public transit, so I try to use my commute time to sort of consciously shed the stress/work mindset and just be home when I’m home.

      1. HeyNonnyNonny*

        +1 to the public transit/commute time to step away from work. I read on my way home, and I end up so caught up in the story that I forget to wheel-spin about work.

        1. Beancounter in Texas*

          Ditto. I find reading very relaxing, as I get caught up in the story and forget reality, so my Kindle permanently resides in my purse for lunch hours to myself & food.

    2. nona*

      Little things to take care of yourself like AnonEMoose said.

      Be careful about time management at work. If you can’t reduce the workload, break it down into a manageable or at least less stressful schedule.

      Look at your other options. Maybe you’ll feel better if you know what your “escape” options are. Maybe you’ll feel better if you look into other options and learn that focusing on your current job is the best choice right now.

      Try to avoid complaining about it, entering bitch-eating-crackers mode with coworkers, or otherwise being self-indulgent when you feel frustrated. It’s hard, but you need to be careful to not feed into your own exhaustion.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      The number one thing for me is to realize that I am probably done with the job. But the rest of my answer is self-care stuff- rest, eat simple foods (meats/veggies/fruits), drink plenty of water and get more rest.

    4. BeckyDaTechie*

      Change up the routine at home. Usually run in the morning? Try a pilates or yoga DVD or a starter class at the Y. Sit at home all weekend brooding about what a So-And-So Whosits is? Volunteer at a local dog rescue, visit nursing homes, find new hiking or bike trails. Doing something different changes the time you *can* control so you’re more rested during the time you have to just bear down and deal.

    5. Elizabeth West*

      When you leave at the end of the day, leave work at the office. Make the drive/journey home a transition–“I’m not at work now; this is MY time.” Repeat that to yourself if you start thinking about work stuff at home.

  62. LV Ladybug*

    My company his highering for a low level supervisor postion. It has already been posted (through our HR, I wasn’t much involved in the posting) and I am receivng tons of resumes. However, there are some people that are way more qualified or maybe looking for a more prestigious position than what we are actually hiring for. When I start calling to set up interviews, how should I weed out those who might be looking to make more than the 26k/year we are offering. I don’t want to waste anyone’s time if they think this position is for much more.

    I also don’t want to put these people in the “no” pile if they are looking for something low key right now.

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      This is the benefit of the phone screen. Be explicit that the salary is X and the responsibilities are Y and let people self select out. My mom had to push to hire someone for a basically entry level position who had a master’s and was making way above the posted salary. The person wanted a job with a lot less responsibility and hours because she had a young child and her old job was killing her family life.

    2. Fante*

      This is why employers should disclose salary ranges in the job description! I know there are more factors considered in that decision, but dang. It takes so much time to apply to openings these days with a cover letter and tailored resume and applications that need to know your high school GPA… it’d be nice to know if it’s even in the same ballpark salary-wise before investing all that time.

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      That salary is low enough that I’d disclose it before even setting up phone screens, or you’ll end up wasting a bunch of time (yours and theirs). I’d send emails to everyone you want to talk to, with some info about the job, including salary, and say that if it continues to sound like a good fit, you’d like to set up a phone call to talk more.

      1. LV Ladybug*

        That’s a great idea! Like I mentioned, HR put out the posting and I didn’t have control on what was listed other than the job description and now I have to deal with all of the resumes and interviews and the last thing I want to do is waste people’s time.

      2. Meredith*

        Yes. A friend applied for a job in a high-COL area she wanted to move to, and she really appreciated it when someone from the organization called to tell her the salary was pretty low for the area. The person at the org thought my friend would be a candidate, but that the salary would probably not be attractive to her. My friend ended up bowing out, and it saved everyone a bunch of time and effort. It would have been even better for the salary to have been announced in the posting!

  63. Labyrinthine*

    So good ol’ Wakeem is still with us. HR and upper management decided even after his poor attitude, outright refusing to follow directions and generally just being unable to do the work to our standards, we should give him another chance.

    So I gave him a warning. He took this opportunity to tell me he didn’t appreciate how I spoke to him, that he felt disrespected and that is why he didn’t follow directions. While I am always open to feedback and I sincerely do want to hear when my communication style doesn’t work for someone (admittedly, I am often blunt and to the point – I try to adjust this when I know it doesn’t work for someone), I have a big issue with a team member that tells me they won’t follow directions if they don’t like how it is couched.

    So I sat down with my manager and we talked it over. We basically came to the decision that I am done micromanaging Wakeem and his work. I told him in his 1:1, again very explicitly, what I require from him. I recommended he talk with his peers for ideas on how to structure his day to meet our goals, etc. And then I told him it was on him.

    We’ll see how this pans out. Frankly, I want him gone. I can’t trust him and he takes time that I could use developing my other workers. I recently heard there is another business opening in town and my secret hope is that he will hear about it and go there. I know we are understaffed (and this is why he still has a job – because anyone is better than no one in his role) but he is killing the morale. I spend time on each 1:1 with my other team members talking about how Wakeem makes their work harder and stresses them out.

    1. Marcela*

      Oh, god. Last year I was in the same spot. I recommended my boss to hire somebody without programming experience, to be the second programmer in our team. She said she wanted a new career, from scientist to developer. She was with us 3 months and from the beginning it was very obvious she didn’t like what we did, so she made a lot of mistakes, forgot most of the things we taught her, refused to follow standards, etc. etc. etc. When I, as her direct superviser, addressed that, she said exactly this: “she didn’t appreciate how I spoke to her, that she felt disrespected” and that is why she could not follow instructions or work properly. After she made two “scenes” to me (now I doubt that’s how you say in English), almost crying, complaining that I hated her, our boss didn’t like her, nobody in the office made any effort to help her and understand her, because the career change was so big and we didn’t understand (I did the same thing 10 years ago), my boss decided to let her go. It was a horrible time.

      1. Blue_eyes*

        Marcela – I think you would probably say “made a scene”. “After she made a scene two times…” Your phrasing makes sense though, at least enough that anyone would know what you meant.

        Some people will always decide they don’t like your tone when they don’t want to hear your message. My sister-in-law is known in her family for whining “stop yelling!” whenever her parents told her off.

      2. Labyrinthine*

        Marcela, I strongly suspect these may be the same person (kidding, but it is very similar including the almost crying, nobody likes them, no one understands them, I hate him, boss doesn’t like him and so on).

        It is exhausting.

        The last incident was when I gave him two specific options for how he could handle a hard situation. I said, choose X or choose Y. He demanded to do Z. I told him Z wasn’t an option, X or Y were his options and only he could decide which to do but it had to be one of them. He didn’t like either (both had a negative impact on him but were truly the only two viable options). He complained I gave him an ultimatum. Uh..yea. That is exactly what I did.

        1. Marcela*

          Yes, that’s the word: exhausting. Afterward, my husband and I realized we spent the 3 whole months talking about her: how to help her when we thought she wanted to work with us, and later how to deal with the ridiculous “she could not work when she felt I was annoyed”.

          Even my father told me I needed to cut our losses. I did resist to that: I was once in her shoes and I wanted so hard to give her the same opportunity somebody gave me. The last straw was the second time she made a scene because she chose the day she knew my boss wasn’t in the office (the scenes were only with me). I called him to give up (as I was the only one defending her at that point) as soon as she left.

          Good luck, Labyrinthine. With some of it, he will go.

      3. hapax legomenon*

        I’m not sure I can objectively prove it, but I swear there has been some kind increase in the use of this “tactic” of responding to criticism with “you’re being disrespectful!” over the last 2-3 years. I think it’s bullshit. This is something that someone has learned as a scheme – an often effective scheme – to avoid the consequences of doing a crappy job.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      He felt disrespected and that is why he did not follow instructions?

      Awesome. This will carry him far in life. not.

      I wonder what he would do if he had a boss that was actually mean to him. Anyway, this is not how adults handle problems in the work place. I hope someone explained that to him. Deliberately not following instructions is called sabotage and is a fire-able offense in most companies.
      He has was too many disconnects going on there.

  64. RosieR*

    Young Professional here. I’m in my first management type role and I have a bunch of projects, some very big with huge budgets and others that are one-off requests. I’m having a really hard time staying organized. Does anyone have any recommendations for project management tools that have been helpful for them? Keep in mind my company blocks google drive, dropbox and pretty much most file sharing sites, but I do have the entire microsoft office suite.

    TIA.

    1. Fuzzy*

      I’m not organized enough to use it (my desk is covered in post-ts, but it works) but I know a ton of people who swear by Evernote.

    2. misspiggy*

      MS Project isn’t bad, but if you’re stuck with Office only you can use Excel for project management with more setting-up. Being clear with yourself about what information you need and when is probably the first step though.

    3. Jillociraptor*

      I really like Asana. Do you have One Note? That’s worked great for me too — you can have separate pages for each project, and there’s a feature where you can mark text on each of those pages as “to dos,” which can then get rolled up all in one place on a separate page. Makes it really easy to toggle between in depth on one project and seeing the whole picture!

      1. Alex*

        Second One Note. I have a different notebook for A projects, B projects, and C projects. They are all on tabs down the left side. Within each notebook are separate tabs at the top. For my stuff it makes sense to tab by different entity, but I’ve seen people do this by months, client names, sub projects, whatever makes more sense to you. Then within each individual tab, you have “pages” on the right side you can label. I usually use these at virtual note pages for meeting notes on that project, clippings from important related content, brainstorming, etc.

        In combination with a pretty well organized virtual foldering system and being on-top of my email organization, I’ve really streamlined my virtual organization.

        I also find I use the “sticky notes” program (built in to Microsoft) all the time.

      2. SystemsLady*

        +1 for OneNote

        I love how you can make to do list items and have them pulled right into Outlook tasks (I don’t always bother setting dates, but when I have a lot of e-mails and to do list items it’s nice that I can).

      3. CA Admin*

        I love One Note for travel planning. You can attach all confirmations, lists, meetings, etc. in a way that’s very intuitive.

    4. EmilyG*

      After struggling with Evernote and Microsoft OneNote and Wunderlist for a while I went back to paper and pencil, which I think was inspired by Allison’s book (at least one major part). Those online tools are all nice but they seem better for capturing scads of data than for prioritizing.

      I use a tiny notebook as a to-do list. Each page is one day and I only write the “big rocks” on it. “Finish report” not “answer email.”

      I use a big notebook to take notes in meetings. I have a page going for each person who reports to me and my boss, marked off with tape flags. So if I meet with Sarah, I open to my Sarah page and see anything that I jotted down to discuss with her since our last meeting plus any notes from last time. I tried to do this in Evernote and it just didn’t stick, I’m not sure why. You could do this for projects in addition to people or instead of them but most of my projects are attached to one person.

      I use post-its to jot down things that fall into my brain during meetings, or phone numbers I don’t need for long. I pretty much clear out the post-its at the end of each day, but–key thing–they keep my notebooks from containing anything incidental, unimportant, or ephemeral.

    5. ERB*

      I second One-note, especially for coordinating with others. Something I’ve recently picked up is using a Kanban board/outline on my wall. The pros are moving the post-its around is pretty satisfying, but you do have to remember to write things down as they come up. You could also try keeping a running list in a small notebook, a little more portable.

    6. Not Today Satan*

      I just keep a spreadsheet of all my projects. There are columns for Project name/client name/due date/what I’ve done/what I need to do/stuff I’m waiting on from others, etc. I update it as I go along, and when I finish the project, I highlight it in grey and move it to the top.

    7. Kirsten*

      I keep a list of my current projects with important dates in a word table that I print and hang in my cube. I then keep a written to do list in a notebook. Very old school but it works for me.

  65. Nom d'pixels*

    Ugh. I have to fire someone for the first time today. I wanted to just get it over with, but my boss thinks it is less disruptive to do it near the end of the day, and he is taking the lead on this. The firing is justified, but it still sucks.

    1. Frustrated Manager*

      I hate that feeling too. Good luck. I understand what you are going through. I’ve personally gone home and cried about several that I’ve had to do and it doesn’t seem to get any easier…

      1. Nom d'pixels*

        Thanks, I have been stressing about this for weeks. I have had several conversations with the employee about how she is not meeting expectations, but her work hasn’t improved.

        1. Nachos Bell Grande*

          If you’ve had enough conversations about the end being near, they may honestly be relieved – Even if not at the moment, then in retrospect someday. Not meeting expectations is a real drain on your self-esteem.

          Good luck!

    1. Senor Poncho*

      Eh, I think the bar exam itself is fine insofar as it’s probably a necessary filter. Most people pass, and it’s not as difficult as people make it seem. Stressful, sure, tiring, sure, but the vast majority of first-time takers end up passing. The exam, in and of itself, is not really a huge barrier to entry. The bigger barriers are law school and the debt incurred during law school. So….

      My issues are more (a) the cost of law school generally, (b) the fact that the bar comes after one incurs those costs, (c) the cost of the exam itself, and (d) the reciprocity issues between states and the fact that there’s no (real) uniform bar exam — so the exam turns out to be protectionist insofar as it costs x thousand dollars and six months or so of time to get admitted in another jurisdiction (really for no good reason).

      1. Stephanie*

        Yeah, one of the friends I sent this to mentioned the crazy reciprocity rules. “I saw this job in [different state] that looks awesome, but I refuse to sit for another bar exam. Refuse.”

  67. Rye-Ann*

    There are a couple of things I felt like saying today.

    First, just a rant (kinda). I’m not going to be graduating with my Master’s until August, but I thought it would be good to start applying for jobs now, due to the difficulty with finding a job in my field in my state and also just for the practice. I saw an opening that seemed like a really good fit, so I applied, and the next day they asked me about when I would be available! I obviously had to tell them that it probably wouldn’t be until late August/September and I haven’t heard back. I’m just so frustrated that my graduation date is probably going to prevent me from being considered for the job, and I’m afraid that I won’t find anything else like it. :\

    Second, a question. I’m a teaching assistant right now, helping teach a chemistry lab course at a University. The students in this course have organized a potluck for everyone in the class. I knew about this before, but what I didn’t realize was that I was invited! I (and also the professor of the course, so they invited him too) got an e-mail about it this morning. Now, I’m not going to go, because it’s tonight, which is too last-minute for me (plus, I’m kind of tired anyway). However, it made me curious – would it even be appropriate for me or my professor to go? If it matters, I highly doubt that my professor will go. On the one hand, they did invite us, which could mean that they don’t think it’s weird. On the other hand, they may have felt like they had to invite us. I’m just not sure!

    1. Nom d'pixels*

      Depending on the size of the company and the nature of the job, they might be willing to wait until August, but it is hard to say. Where I work, things move pretty slowly, and positions requiring advanced degrees can be hard to fill, so that wouldn’t be unreasonable for the right candidate. However, positions only requiring a BS would probably not allow more than 4-6 weeks. I say to go ahead and apply. If they say that is too long to wait, you might be able to get on their radar for another position that opens up.

      As far as your students, that type of socialization is OK. When I TA’d in grad school (also chemistry), I would not date students or even join a small group that invited me for a drink, but if there was an entire class get-together, that was appropriate. That way, you cannot be interpreted as playing favorites and individuals won’t expect any special treatment. Of course, you would want to be on your best behavior and not drink too much or say anything embarrassing.

      1. Rye-Ann*

        I already did apply…I’m not going to get my hopes up, but my chances are still better than if I didn’t apply! Anyway, I am hoping that it will, as you say, at least get me on the radar. Who knows? Maybe whoever they do hire won’t work out for some reason and they’ll need someone else!

        What you’re saying about the student get-together makes sense. The only thing that worries me is that the invite e-mail, while sent to me, the professor, and some of the other students, was NOT sent to everyone, which made me wonder a bit if everyone was indeed invited (though there are other reasonable explanations of course).

    2. Anonsie*

      They always tell you to start job hunting many months out, but when I was applying for jobs as a student everyone seemed annoyed that I had such a long timeline before I could start and it definitely got me passed over a few times.

      1. Treena Kravm*

        I think they give students that advice, because usually the first 5-10 applications aren’t that good anyway, and the long timeline gives you ample time to practice. But yea, it kind of hurts you in a smaller field where they’ll be frustrated with your timeline.

        1. Rye-Ann*

          Hmm…hopefully it doesn’t hurt my chances in the long run. :\ I guess my thought process is that even if I can’t get any of the jobs I’m applying to now, I’m not going to miss out on job postings that crop up later on because of that.

          1. Treena Kravm*

            I wouldn’t worry about it too much. It would have to be a really tiny field and you would also have to handle it really poorly. As in, get the job offer and then announce your availability. As long as you’re upfront, you should be good. If you make an otherwise great impression, it can fast-track later applications at the same place.

      2. Judy*

        I think that the job hunting many months out is supposed to be for the companies that are recruiting on campus, and for the major employers who hire a “class” every June of at least 5 new grads.

  68. Zillah*

    When job searching in a competitive field in a major city, around how many applications sent out without getting any responses would you guys say should be a flag to look at your resume and cover letters again? How many do you think is a good goal per week, assuming one isn’t working, has decent savings, and is writing each letter completely from scratch?

    1. Dawn*

      Amount of well crafted, tailored applications with no response? Maybe 6-10 or so. Really, don’t expect too much in the way of responses, as AAM has said a bajillion times, most companies don’t update applicants on the status of their applications.

      As to how many? I would say as many as you can do without feeling burnt out or discouraged. Depending on the complexity of the applications that could be as little as two a week or as many as two a day, that’s up to you.

    2. Seattle Writer Girl*

      I applied to literally 100 jobs in a 6-month period. I had a 14% response rate from application to phone screen/interview and 2 offers.

    3. Blue_eyes*

      I think how many you send should depend on how many good-fit openings you find, and how many you can do without feeling overwhelmed. Are the positions you’re applying for all so different that they require an entire cover letter from scratch? The things I’m applying for are fairly varied, but mostly use the same skills so I’m able to use large chunks over and over again with small re-writes. I send about 1 application per week on average, but I work part-time, and am being fairly selective about only applying where I think I can make a really strong case for myself (which is a bit tricky since I’m looking to switch fields). In the past year I’ve had 4 interviews for jobs in the field I want to be in, and all of those were in the past 6 months, after I started reading AAM (definitely not a coincidence).

  69. LAI*

    I am looking for advice on how to navigate the politics in a large office. I’ve always worked on pretty small teams before (7-8 people) so it was easy to hear everyone’s opinion, get a majority consensus, etc. My new job is on a team of 30 people, including a leadership team of 5 people. It feels like it’s impossible to keep track of what everyone is doing or what things are changing, but the biggest problem is the lack of decision-making. Because no one is “in charge”, I never know who to ask about which issue. Or if someone on the leadership team says something, I don’t know if that’s just their opinion or an official decision that’s been made. (There is a director, but she is usually insanely busy with higher-level things and we’re lucky if we can catch her in the hallway to ask a quick question.) Has anyone been in this kind of system before and have suggestions for how to get information I need to do my job?

  70. Rin*

    I need some advice: a friend of mine thinks she’s gong to be fired, so she wants to quit first, so it looks better on future applications. The problem is she’s been at this job for less than a year, the one before it was for only a year and a half, and the six months before that she was unemployed. She’s going to try to apply for something before she gets fired, but should she give her two weeks notice, even though she doesn’t have anything yet? Does it look worse to be looking for a job without one if a) she quits not having one lined up or b) she was fired?

    2. Frustrated Manager*

      Seems worse to be fired, but she should probably consider why she’s not able to keep jobs. That seems like a huge problem/red flag to me.

      1. Rin*

        Well, she left the previous job for this one, because it was pretty messed up. And this one is also a little messed up. I think she just needs to find a nice, stable job in a normal company.

    3. Blue_eyes*

      Quitting may make her ineligible for unemployment benefits, so she should take that into consideration. Perhaps she should start looking for and applying to jobs now and wait for them to fire her.

  71. Seashell*

    Anyone from central/southwest Ohio (thinking specifically Columbus/Dayton/Cinci), do you know any of the best companies to work? I went to college there and I’ve been out for about 6 years but there’s part of me that has been thinking about possibly going back, if I could secure a really solid job. My current salary/cost of of living is holding me back from certain things and I can’t help but wonder if I went somewhere else I could get the things I want.

    1. Stephanie*

      My friend’s uncle seems to really like L Brands (the parent company of Victoria’s Secret, Bath and Body Works, among others), based in Columbus. Procter and Gamble is in Cincinnati, correct? I was born in Cincinnati and my parents were both working at GE. They seemed to like it (admittedly, this was nearly 30 years ago). If I remember correctly, one of the Japanese automakers is in Columbus.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        My dad’s friend worked at GE there decades ago. Irrelevant, but it made me smile.

    2. Sparrow*

      Honda is in Marysville, which is about 20-30 minutes northwest of Columbus. Cardinal Health is a big employer in the Dublin area (northwest suburb of Columbus). There is also AEP, Chase, Battelle and Ohio State. Not sure what type of work you do, but there are also several major hospitals in the area.

  72. Alex*

    I’m 17 and in the UK.
    So we were having a lesson on Cv writing on Monday and the teacher suggested that we left our name and contact details until the end because `everyone has a name’ and ‘it’ll stop prejudice’. She also stated that we should put our political views on there.

    1. Anastasia Beaverhausen*

      I can see her point about the name (let them look at your experience first), but it seems really misguided since it’s such an unusual thing to do that an employer will probably just think that you don’t know how to write a CV.

      As to that second point, that’s terrible advice! What was her explanation for that, I wonder? That’s just so out of touch with professional convention that I’m really worried about this person being given a platform to give frankly stupid advice to high schoolers who may not all know that it’s stupid.

    2. misspiggy*

      Oh no no no… part of the problem may be that teachers don’t have the same job application process as most others, so they don’t have much direct experience of normal job applications. I’ve definitely known British people who have changed their names to avoid prejudice in getting jobs, sadly; but leaving your name off the top of a CV is likely to annoy the reader so much that they don’t read the thing properly.

    3. Nom d'pixels*

      That is so, so wrong. First of all, putting your name and contact information at the end won’t stop predjudice, it will just make it look like you don’t understand basic formatting.

      Second, when people review resumes or CVs, they look for red flags. How are the communication skills? Attention to detail? Dealing with that employee who tries to force their opinions on someone else is a nightmare. They want someone who won’t cause trouble and will be easy to work with. Putting your political views on there is a huge red flag that you are going to push them on other people. Even if I agreed 100% with a candidate’s views, I would reject them for fear of how many times HR would get involved because they wouldn’t just let other people be.

    5. Ask a Manager* Post author

      What?! Your political views?

      This is really awful advice, and being given to people who will probably believe her.

      I’d happily write to this teacher if you’d like me to.

    6. Elkay*

      Your teacher is wrong. My only exception to this would be if you’re applying to be an MP’s researcher then you might include that you’re a member of their party.

      1. MJ (Aotearoa/New Zealand)*

        Yeah, I applied to a job as a political party member’s EA once and said in my cover letter that I was a registered member of the party, but that’s the only time I can see it being remotely appropriate!

      2. Carrie in Scotland*

        I feel like quoting the West Wing with “just stand there in your wrongness and be wrong and get used to it.”
        Because yeah. WTF.

    7. Student*

      Hiding your name at the end is not going to reduce rejections due to prejudice. No one’s resume is so outstanding that someone with prejudice will skim through it, get to the name at the end, and suddenly go “Epiphany! I’ve been wrong about this gender/ethnic group/ religion / racial group! This person is amazing and I must hire him/her, and mend my ways!”

      They will say instead, “Huh, a !@#$ with this good of a resume is probably lying. Rejected.”

    10. arjumand*

      OK. Ok. Need to calm down a little here, because this is why teachers get a bad reputation.

      So, I’m a teacher, and though I’m not in the UK, I’m in a European country which used to be a colony, and so we get a lot of our job-seeking etc inspiration from UK standards.

      I don’t do CV lessons anymore because we’re all supposed to be using the Europass template nowadays, and that definitely includes name and contact details at the beginning. And definitely DOESN’T include anything about political views (WTF). I didn’t use the Europass the last time I polished up my CV because I find it a bit utilitarian, but as it’s a template you can always alter it to your own needs.

      Besides, both Word and Open Office have CV (resume) templates available, so just ignore what this person is saying and check them out.

      If you need any advice in CV writing, just answer this!

  73. AnonEMoose*

    I’ve been pondering this recently. I don’t manage people in my paid employment (and I prefer it that way). But as some of you may remember, I volunteer with a local-to-me science fiction convention, and in that position, I’m responsible for managing about 20 or so volunteers.

    So my question is: What are the differences between managing paid employees and managing volunteers?

    Two things I can think of off the top of my head:

    Volunteers, on some level, really have to want to be there. If they don’t feel appreciated, or things in their lives explode, they can and will just walk away.

    And because they are doing the tasks they’re doing for me kind of around the rest of their lives (paid employment, families, other commitments), flexibility is a must, but has to be balanced with accountability.

    1. The IT Manager*

      Also you will be unlikely to hold volunteers to the same standards as employees, you don’t discipline them, you don’t fire them (usually), etc so in that way it is easier to manage volunteers.

      1. araminty*

        It’s important that volunteers are accountable, though. And if your vol really messes up, you WILL have to have the same kind of discussion you’d have with an employee, even coming down to “don’t come in on Monday.”

        Since they’re not getting monetary recompense, make sure your volunteers feel like they’re getting something else of value for their work. FEED them! Offer to write letters of recommendation. Make sure you understand their skills and motivations, to ensure that you’re assigning them appropriate tasks. Thank them, profusely and honestly. Listen to their feedback and act on it.

        You know, the usual :)

        1. the gold digger*

          1. Don’t get pissy if the person who volunteers every other Wednesday is not interested in spending an entire weekend taking inventory.

          2. If you do expect people to spend a weekend taking inventory, then buy them lunch. Do not say, “And remember to bring lunch!”

      2. AnonEMoose*

        Actually, there have been instances in which we have disciplined or even fired volunteers. Usually for pretty serious stuff, like violating the harassment policy (yes, we have one and we take it seriously!), a pattern of treating attendees poorly, things like that. So it does happen, and it is definitely not fun when it does.

      3. Treena Kravm*

        Oh it is waaay harder to manage volunteers. Convincing people to produce good work for free (especially with a negligible budget for retention) is miserable. Ugh.

    2. Alex*

      In one environment where I volunteer regularly, a few of the volunteers have a very entitled attitude – “They need me here, they can’t fire me, I can walk away anytime I want, I’m doing them a favor”. These people often show up late, don’t show up at all with no notice, are cranky and grumbly, and expect free or discounted services from the organization. I have no idea how to manage that but thought I’d add the comment in case it is helpful.

      1. AnonEMoose*

        We get some similar stuff. Usually longtime volunteers who are sure they know how things “should” be or that things “have always been done this way,” and they get pretty incensed when stuff changes. They do at least show up, though, so there’s that much.

  74. RandomName*

    Is there a new resume trend now of using big blocks of text with duties separated by commas instead of using clear, concise bullet points? One staffing agency sent us two resumes in that format.

    Interestingly enough, we received one resume in that block text format from a direct hire candidate who had plagiarized word-for-word the entire Career Profile section from a sample resume website (which didn’t even apply to the candidate’s experience), but did not copy the bulleted experience format from that sample resume on her own resume.

    1. Fuzzy*

      There must be, because a friend asked me to look over his and it had the same big block of text format. He told me the college career center told him to do it. UGH.

      1. RandomName*

        I honestly don’t take the time to read through them when I see them like that unless there are no good candidates in the pool of resumes I’ve received. Then I grudgingly go back through them. Which is actually why I even caught the plagiarized resume. I moved on immediately upon first opening it. But in a pool of crappy candidate resumes, that one got a second look. I was actually thinking the experience, though not the strongest, warranted at least a phone interview, but the Career Profile listed 15 years of experience in a role that didn’t even remotely match the Experience section. So I googled the first sentence and there it was! First Google result! So we are passing on that candidate altogether. I’d like to tell her why, but I think it would be a waste of time.

        1. Fuzzy*

          They really are totally unreadable. We’re looking at intern resumes right now and they’re bulleted and clean–which I’m SO happy about.

          It is a waste of time. It’s her fault that she plagiarized poorly.

    2. Anastasia Beaverhausen*

      Maybe these people had the misfortune of using the same outplacement company as OP # 4 on the most recent short answers post?

    3. The IT Manager*

      plagiarized word-for-word the entire Career Profile section from a sample resume website (which didn’t even apply to the candidate’s experience), but did not copy the bulleted experience format from that sample resume on her own resume.

      That shows very poor attention to detail.

    4. Not Today Satan*

      Sometimes staffing agencies reformat resumes without consulting the applicant, unfortunately. I wouldn’t hold it against the applicant if otherwise they look good.

      1. RandomName*

        We contacted the staffing agency about one of the block text resumes because it didn’t list any dates next to the positions the person held. The staffing agency responded by saying that the person needed a lot of resume coaching. Both the HR Manager and I both said, “and that’s AFTER the coaching?” So, maybe you’re right that they coached her to put the resume in that format.

        I used to read through those resumes, but we get so many resumes when we advertise positions in my department and at certain times of the month/year I’m very busy so I skip them unless they happen to be in a round of unimpressive candidates. We do get enough strong ones in bullet format, that I never think “what if” for not looking at the block-text ones more closely.

    5. Jennifer*

      I bet they were having issues with their formatting–or specifically fitting everything on to 2 pages only.

      1. RandomName*

        It just seems like it’s worse this round of hiring than it has been for previous rounds. We have a new HR manager screening our resumes now, so maybe the previous one used to filter them out before sending them on to me.

    7. Renee*

      No, that’s actually very similar to the way I was taught to do a resume 25 years or so ago, although the duties were described in short sentences. It’s very traditional and probably regarded as more formal by career centers and agencies. It was still very much the norm in our legal community (in a large city) when I left to go in-house about four years ago. I only adopted the bullet point format after leaving the field.

      1. Renee*

        We were also taught that a resume could only be one page. Period. I remember one employer saying that they threw out any resume over one page. Also, even though “References available upon request” is unnecessary because it is obvious, it was best to include it because “it demonstrates that you know the way things are done.”

        1. What she said...*

          +1. This was the way I was taught, too. So, you could be seeing this with applicants who are not recent grads. I didn’t even know that conventions had changed until I discovered this site.

    8. BeckyDaTechie*

      Not a new trend. My “job search counselor” through the Labor Board expected the same thing. He also wanted me to put in an “objective” section which I’d already taken out. (I actually missed the call for the interview that got my new position because I was talking to the labor board guy.)

      1. RandomName*

        So if people are giving this advice, I wonder if there are any hiring managers out there who are saying,”What’s with these bullet point resumes? They hardly give any information at all. I want to see every. single. duty. a person has had while working in their previous positions even if they’re not relevant to the job I’m hiring for.”

        1. Renee*

          Quite possibly they are. Back in the stone age, when I entered the workforce, there seemed to be a right and correct way to do a resume, and I was warned that not following conventions would imply that I was inexperienced and/or unprofessional because I either did not know or did not care to do things the right way. I have no doubt that there are some hiring managers that see candidates with bullet point resumes that way, depending on the industry. My very traditional resume passed muster with all of the legal recruiters I met with. I was very nervous about switching to bullet points, and I only did so because I was switching fields, and it was the easiest way to downplay the litigation experience and highlight the skills that would translate in-house. It makes me feel a little sad to hear that hiring managers denigrate candidate that still submit these resumes because that is how they were taught, and I believe they do show an aptitude for producing to prescribed guidelines.

          1. RandomName*

            I think it shows a lack of resourcefulness. Anyone who is job searching should be doing their homework and making sure their resume reflects current norms.

  75. Sophia in the DMV*

    Sorry I haven’t been as active 1) after I gave birth in July then even less active after 2) I started a new job in Ian.

    Question to academics and publishers – I just finished writing a book prospectus and am finalizing the revisions from my diss. Any advice before sending it off? How much of the lit review do I cut out – all? That seems to be the advice but also doesn’t seem scholarly…

    2. jamlady*

      I have nothing for you on the job stuff, but yay for you! Sounds like a big last year for you :) Hope you and baby are doing well!

  76. Perpetua*

    What would you do if you had conflicting reports about an event? Today, an employee came to me about some negative comments allegedly shared by one of our interns/occasional student workers during a mini-celebration we had over lunch over an award our company got recently. Employee said that Intern said “poisonous” remarks about employees and the type of work that we do and he (Employee) was pretty worked up about it, but couldn’t remember much about exact wording or specific comments. A bit later, I called Intern (he’d already left by that time) to ask him about it, he said that it was misunderstood sarcasm, that he has a good opinion of us and likes working here. I told him that even if it was sarcasm, a celebratory lunch is not the place for it and that we don’t find such behaviour very professional, but now I’m at a loss what to do when it comes to keeping him or letting him go. He’s easily replaceable, being only called in to come for a couple of hours or a couple of days when we have more work, and we’d rather have someone who truly likes being here, but I’m feeling a bit uncomfortable over this “he said, she said” situation.

    2. SMT*

      Sometimes adults have to accept that other adults use tones (or sarcasm) when they shouldn’t, or don’t mean to. If only one person was disturbed by this, I’m not sure what else there is to do other than have the conversation with the intern about ‘keeping it professional’ even in the break room, during celebrations, etc. It’s hard to manage an issue you didn’t actually witness.

      1. Colette*

        The part that disturbs me is that the offended employee couldn’t provide information on what the intern said, specifically. I would hesitate to take too much action based on that – I think talking to the intern was appropriate, but nothing more.

    3. MsM*

      Unless it happens again, I’d probably keep him, but not put him at the top of the list for people you’d want to hire full-time.

      Also, the orgs I’ve worked for always include a brief, general reminder in staff meetings before big events or when very important visitors are coming that you’re representing the organization and it’s important not to say things that could be misconstrued. Might be worth implementing that at your office as well if it’s not already happening.

    4. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      This is always hard. Assuming you’ve made your expectations for the future clear, I’d mentally file this as having given him a serious warning, and then just move ahead paying close attention to his behavior and watching for signs that inappropriate behavior is continuing.

      I’d be pretty hesitant to let someone go over something that was potentially a misunderstanding or a one-time lapse in judgement, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t consider this as you continue to evaluate him. This might not be relevant to your work, but you if you need to avoid unemployment claims, you want to make sure you have some solid cause before letting him go.

    6. Dawn*

      As someone who’s been in that intern’s shoes, please chalk it up to a one time thing and let it go (unless this is part of a long chain of unacceptable behavior). When I was younger I worked a job where for some unknown reason a couple of women ganged up on me and reported something that I had said to someone else as being all kinds of horrible. I got called into the director’s office who blindsided me with this “THEY said you said something HORRIBLE to Sansa!” when what I had actually said was something like “Oh man Sansa, it’s almost time to go swimming, I sure hope the pool is warmer today since you said it was so cold yesterday!” It was a big enormous mess and seriously, utterly, stupid, doubly so after everyone continued to talk about how horrible I was AFTER Sansa came in and said no, Dawn was being totally polite and making small talk, yes the pool was cold yesterday, no I don’t feel personally attacked.

      Just my side of the matter.

    7. hapax legomenon*

      As others have said: make a mental note but otherwise consider it closed.

      The fact that the accuser couldn’t articulate any examples of what the intern said would raise a red flag for me. If it were me, I might ask to the employee to take a couple of minutes, get calmed down, and then send me an email describing the incident, and then we would go over it. If for no other reason than to avoid something like “We have to fire the intern” “Why?” “He made poisonous remarks at lunch.” “Poisonous?! Wow! What did he say?” “Well … we don’t really know, but he upset Drusilla.” “Gee, I wonder what he said. Did you ask Drusilla?” “Yes, but she couldn’t remember anything specific.” “So you’re going to fire him for upsetting Drusilla?” “For making poisonous remarks.” “But what did he say?” Etc.

      I have to be honest, I get the sense that the intern is being judged harshly due to his low status, which does not sit well with me.

  77. shep*

    My job is not the most scintillating, and does not dovetail into my career aspirations. But my supervisor is great, my compensation is decent, and as someone with a master’s degree in a field most people deem utterly useless, I know how lucky I am (and what a struggle it was) to arrive here.

    But I also recognize that sometimes I’m not as grateful as I should be. So this is me confessing to a community that understands: I am not always grateful, but I’m sure going to starting actively appreciating what I’ve got.

      2. danr*

        If you can eat some parsley, it might mask the odors. Or not, but it’s worth a good story if someone remarks on it.

    2. Fuzzy*

      I don’t have the clip available, but NCIS had a funny bit about sexual harassment back in the day…

      1. Fuzzy*

        Training! Mandatory sexual harassment training!

        I promise I don’t find sexual harassment funny.

        1. The Other Dawn*

          When I wrote it and hit Submit I realized I should have inserted the word “prevention.” Oh well. It was actually a good session. Wasn’t boring like other ones I’ve been to.

  79. Tau (UK)*

    Here’s a CV/resume query!

    I did a course in 2009 which, at the time, awarded a “certificate of advanced studies”. It was converted to a Master’s degree, including retroactively, a few years later and I only sorted out getting said retroactive Master’s recently. This means that my Master’s certificate/award/diploma was technically awarded in 2015, even though I did the actual course awarding it in 2009 and got a certificate from it then.

    How should I write this on my CV? Is it all right to just say “M.ASt. – 2009” and then, when they ask for documentation, send a copy of both the 2009 certificate and the 2015 Master’s and a brief note explaining the situation? Or should I write something like “[Certificate] – 2009, converted to M.ASt. 2015”?

      1. Onymouse*

        The last option also (at least to my North American eye) makes the credential seem “cheaper” – diploma mills comes to mind, even, as it’s not common to hear of certificates suddenly turning into master’s degrees.

        OP, did you actually receive your new diploma yet? There’s always a chance it’ll say issued 2015 for award in 2009, or something along those lines

        1. Tau (UK)*

          That is a worry of mine, but the university it’s from is *very* prestigious and *very* well-known so I hope people will just go “okay, a top tier university is doing weird stuff with their degrees because they can get away with it”.

          And I did receive the new diploma! It’s actually why I’m asking this question – I was expecting some mention of the 2009 award to be on there but it just says “awarded in 2015”.

          1. Violet Rose*

            Wait, if you’re in the UK, I might know the degree you’re talking about, since my university does something similar with certain undergraduate degrees. (Had you chosen to receive the diploma in person, would the vice-chancellor have tapped you on the head with a book during the ceremony?)

            If it is the one I’m thinking of, then having the university’s name on your CV should lead people to that exact conclusion: “University is doing weird stuff with their degrees because they know they can.” But, based on your comment further down, I don’t think you’d be out of line writing “Masters, 2009”, and saving the full story until someone asks about your degree (“At the time, it was a certificate program, but was re-evaluated,” etc.)

            1. Tau (UK)*

              No, but I did a bit of Googling and if I figured out which one you mean correctly you’re nearly right and it’s hardly a surprise if those two universities do these things similarly. Had I not decided to graduate in absentia my graduation ceremony would have involved holding someone’s finger – the book seems almost reasonable in comparison…

              I’m thinking just going for “Masters, 2009” and then explaining if/when it comes up might be the least confusing way of doing this!

              1. Violet Rose*

                Ah, yup – I had a friend who went to “the other place” for his undergraduate degree, and he mentioned the finger-holding thing. I guess when your university is that old, you can do whatever you want and label it a Deep and Meaningful Tradition :P

                And yeah, “sometimes they do funny things with their degrees Because They Can, and that’s why” is a pretty reasonable explanation for either university!

    2. Treena Kravm*

      If you do 80% of your undergrad coursework from 2000-2003, and then finish it up in 2014, your BA still says 2014 because that’s when you earned the degree. So if it became/you earned the Master’s in 2015, wouldn’t it be irrelevant that you did the coursework for it in 2009? I say just say “MA in X- 2015”

      1. Tau (UK)*

        But it’s not a matter of finishing some small part later to get awarded the degree – it’s a matter of having done the degree, start to finish, at X time, then having people assess the course as equivalent to a Master’s degree some years later and having everyone who’s ever done it since its inception become eligible for a Master’s, which I sent off for at Y time. So there’s literally no part of the actual course that happened in 2015 and it feels like listing that as “Master’s – 2015” would be deceptive. Plus, confusing: it’d leave a gap on my CV for the year in which I did it and leave the impression that I did a Master’s degree simultaneously with the last year of my PhD.

        1. Treena Kravm*

          Hmm, so I’m wondering if in the UK you actually do send copies of your degrees as a matter of course in starting a new job. Or are you in a field that requires verification of credentials? If that’s the case, then I think listing it as Master’s 2009 would be fine. I don’t think anyone will think you’re trying to pull a fast one.

          Do the degrees have the same title? Even if they do, what about listing it like this
          Master’s in Teapot Production – 2015
          Certificate in Teapot Production – 2009

          Usually, (at least in the US) a certificate is just the 1st year of a master’s, so it’s not as if you’re saying you did double the work. In the cursory research I’ve done about grad school in the UK, I think it’s similar, a certificate is usually 1 semester, and the MA is a full year.

          Is there some sort of letter from the Uni explaining the switch/new degree? I think that along with the 2 degrees should be fine, especially since you say it’s a prestigious university. I’d assume one could easily verify that and you’re right, most people will go oh, a degree from X! and leave it at that.

  80. Frustrated Manager*

    I wonder how much control HR should have over things that have previously been a part of my job. I joined a team as a manager after a restructuring where the department now reports through a different part of the company. Bottom line, I was the new manager on the block and significantly changed the rules. I hold my staff responsible for their work output and productivity. They had not felt this before. About half the team could be classified as “not doing anything all day” and the other half was doing things that weren’t productive. They needed some training and guidance on how to come up to speed in our industry and work smarter, not harder. I’ve successfully taught many of the team members these things and the team size has been cut in half (both voluntarily and involuntarily) and we are now at the right size. I have one person, let’s call him “Bob”. Bob has not been able to meet the new standards since I joined. Despite coaching, reprimands, bad performance reviews, repeated conversations, etc, he is not improving. I believe he does not have the aptitude to take on this newly technical job. I’d like to transfer him to another department that will accept him with open arms. His skills more closely align with their goals. The HR manager started 3 weeks ago. We previously did not have HR at all. She is taking control of this situation to the point of doing the following:
    Blocking the transfer
    Repeatedly asking me to test his work
    Repeatedly asking me to coach him and train him more. Asking me to put him on a performance improvement plan.
    Offering to write up a disciplinary action for me (not me writing it up with my own words, but her writing it up)
    Suggesting that I’m being way too hard on him.
    Basically, I feel that she is questioning me about my determination that he isn’t qualified for the job. I’m kind of not used to this level of HR involvement. I’ve asked for a coaching form that I can fill out but I’ve not received one. My boss is on my side 100% and agrees that this individual is not qualified. What’s up with HR? She is saying that even though 2 years have gone by and he’s not been able to fulfill the job duties, she wants to put him through more rounds of trials, training, etc. I find this really difficult to deal with because it’s hurtful to the employee and I know he’s not able to do the work. Any suggestions?

    1. MsM*

      How many layers are there between you and your boss, and whoever supervises HR? I’d go talk to that person (and bring Bob’s potential new manager if you can). Explain that you understand and appreciate what HR is trying to do, but you feel you’ve already taken those steps and come up with a solution that works for everyone directly involved, so you’d appreciate help or advice on how to get past this last hurdle.

      1. Frustrated Manager*

        Thanks for the reply. I report to someone who reports to CEO. She reports to the CEO as well. CEO doesn’t really act in situations where his staff disagrees. He expects everyone to work it out. Bob’s potential new manager is excited and has asked my manager twice when Bob will be joining the team. HR said I haven’t taken the steps because the ‘format of my writing’ didn’t include everything that needed to be there. Despite Bob saying in writing he acknowledges productivity issues, he knows he’s not doing well, he’ll improve, etc. She says he needs to be treated ‘fairly’ and given a chance to succeed. A PIP would be SO hurtful to him right now. I know he won’t make it through that.

        1. MsM*

          Hmm. In that case, I might try just treating this like it’s a done deal. Fix the formatting, send her an email, copy everyone (your boss, other manager, CEO, maybe even Bob if he’s in the loop on all this), and tell her you hope this clears up the procedural issues so that Bob’s new team – who are eagerly waiting for him – can help him get acclimated in his new duties and on the path to success.

          Or, since she and your boss are on the same level, ask him if he’s willing to talk with her one on one and make it clear that she’s asking you to go back to square one on a process that’s already well in hand, and that this really is the fairest solution for everyone.

          1. Frustrated Manager*

            She wants the transfer to be “Bob’s choice”. Which I understand. She won’t even let me tell him about the opportunity. I was suggesting telling him the 2 choices are: 1. Transfer to the other team or 2. Be held accountable on this team. With a caveat of: I’ve not seen success from you in 2 years and I don’t believe this is the right team for you.

            And, my boss and I have had several conversations with her about this. He’s talked to her, I’ve talked to her, we’ve both talked to her. No change in her opinion. I need to re-tell Bob how badly he’s done, tell him the expectations, then wait for him to have the “a-ha” moment that he isn’t qualified and ask to be transferred. Granted, he’s not really going to be happy about going to the other department, but I’d like to let him know honestly how I feel about the situation. Too honest? Should managers ever tell employees “You don’t have what it takes?” in other words, of course… ?

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Whoa. She’s way out of line. Your boss should talk to her and tell her that you both appreciate her input but the situation is well in hand, and if she has specific concerns about protecting the company from liability, you’d be glad to address them with her, but otherwise you are going to be moving forward in the way you and your boss have both agreed is best for your team. Period. And then move forward with doing that.

    3. hapax legomenon*

      Wow. First I want to say that I admire you for wanting to handle this in a manner such that Bob goes to a new job.

      This HR person sounds like she’s trying to “prove” herself because she’s new on the job.

      My one thought is: is there any way you can just ‘forget’ all of this performance issue stuff and work with Bob and this other dept to convert this into a lateral transfer? Ie “we’ll all miss Bob, but with the reorg, his skills are desperately required in [new dept]” What the manager of [new dept] approached Bob with a job opportunity?

      1. Frustrated Manager*

        Bob doesn’t want to go to the other job. It’s a huge negative in his opinion. Which I can understand. My job has a higher ‘social status’ and more technical than the other job. And no unfortunately I cannot forget the performance stuff; this HR manager is VERY focused on his performance and wants him to improve. I’m very embarrassed for him because I know he cannot. It’s a technical job and he’s got some issues that keep him from being able to perform a lot of the key responsibilities. Example: He’s got some memory issues that keep him from being able to remember things like… What he’s supposed to be working on right now, where the documentation is outlining how to do his job, etc. He gets distracted easily and we have long-term project work that requires long-term focus. He can’t focus for longer than a few minutes. He talks out loud constantly for no reason (just thinking out loud kind of thing).The job I’m suggesting is a phone-based job with customers calling in and the focus is a smaller timeframe and he doesn’t need to remember as much. He just needs to answer customer questions based on his existing knowledge. This, he can do and I believe he will do it well. Long-term focus in a highly technical role, not so much. The improvement thing is just a waste of time.

        At this point, our plan is as follows: Today I’m going to meet with him and tell him about the opportunity in the other department, just generally bringing up the fact that he’s not cutting it here (in a nice way) and suggest the other job is more aligned with his skills. I’m going to let him know we’re at the point we’re ready to write him up in a formal improvement plan but I’d like to avoid that and offer him the chance to move. If he chooses to move, good for him, it’s all done. If he chooses to stay, I’ll remind him that he’ll be held accountable for his work and must show improvement or his job is in jeopardy. I’ve been told I’m not allowed to tell him I don’t see him being able to improve and suggest that he takes the other job. It must be totally “his choice”. This has been very frustrating and I’ve lost a lot of sleep over this. I don’t want Bob to be unhappy and I want what’s best for our company. I can’t see myself just forcing Bob to try to improve any further. I don’t believe he can and it’s hurtful to try to make him.

        Thank you ask a manager readers (and Alison too!) for your input. We’ve not had HR the entire time I’ve been here and this was extremely startling to me to have all of her opinions thrust on us like this. I’ve been used to having an extremely high amount of freedom in how I handle/manage my team. With help of AAM, I think I do all the right things. It sucks to hear from someone they don’t think you’re doing the right things.

  81. Going Anonymous For This*

    Has anyone ever taken a job outside of their ideal career path and suffered long-term in their career because of it? Conversely, has anyone taken a job they viewed as a placeholder and had great gains from it? I was offered a job that is essentially customer service and I am not sure if I want to take it, but I do need a job (unemployed). The company seems like it is great and growing, the pay is quite good, but I don’t know where the opportunities will be long term, except to manage a customer service team. I would like to stay at a company for a while, not view this as something to just leave if I hate it. Much help would be appreciated! I feel like I need to accept or decline very soon, though the job wouldn’t start for over two weeks.

    1. hopefully*

      I tried this with my current position. I don’t know, what kind of customer service position is it? I found out that this type of work (call center) is definitely not for me and I feel like I’m suffocating. I would say really gauge who you interviewed with. I got lucky with a good manager — my supervisor is another story

      1. Going Anonymous For This*

        I’d describe it as a slightly more enjoyable customer service. It’s not a call center atmosphere (no calls at all, in fact) and there is no 24/7 aspect to it. I do think it is the best you can expect from customer service, but still, it is most definitely a customer service job.

        1. hopefully*

          is it Apple retail? ;) because that was the best customer service job I held imo!

          And if it is, take it. i met some amazing people when i was working at the fruit stand

          1. Going Anonymous For This*

            It’s not, but I bet that would be a nice place to work! I feel like this company treats their employees well.

    2. Jillociraptor*

      I got into my work completely by accident – I took a part time, temp gig in this area to pay the bills while working toward my dream career in a totally different field, and here I am still almost five years later. What made this a good choice is that my company has given me so many opportunities to grow and develop. It has invested in me as much as I’ve invested in it. I think if both you and the employer in this placeholder role view it as ONLY a placeholder, it’s probably unlikely to yield really great things for your career. But if you’re able to proactively seek out the opportunities, it could be a great thing for you.

      1. Going Anonymous For This*

        I think they don’t view it as a placeholder. And my interview was not the typical placeholder interview. It was a phone screening, with two in persons…more intense than most jobs I’ve applied to. That seems like they really feel like this is a long-term job and the manager specifically said it was a built from the ground up team. They do seem like a great, considerate company. Nice people too.

    3. Dawn*

      I took a temp to hire position in tech support four years ago that turned into a full time position as a research analyst, then a senior research analyst, and now as a business analyst at a different company- and I have found I *love love love* being an analyst where as before if you had asked I would have said I loved doing customer service. And speaking from experience- job titles are a dime a dozen but good companies with good managers and co-workers? PRICELESS.

    4. voluptuousfire*

      If it’s good pay and the environment seems good, take it! Customer service experience is invaluable. It shows you know how to handle different types of personalities, can build interpersonal relationships, have patience, can handle difficult situations, so on, etc.

    5. Jessie's Girl*

      My first job was a crappy, independent contractor job that was run out of someone’s apartment. A nice, probably million dollar place in Santa Monica, but still a bad job that had nothing to do with my initial career path.

      I took the job because I needed something since I had to move out and was living on a friend’s couch. It took me about a year and a half to get away and that time required a bunch of job interviews and a part-time job in my chosen profession to provide me with the relevant experience for better jobs.

      Anyway, this is all to say that, taking a job outside of my chosen profession caused me to job hop until I realized that I could take a job in an adjacent profession and be as happy (probably) and save about $200k going back to school.

      The hardest part was explaining to future employers what I was doing at my first job. It took some creative editing to finagle the relevant job duties (of which there were few) to fit the requirements of my newly chosen profession.

      Luckily, I’ve worked enough, I believe, that I can just leave that job off my resume entirely and, if it ever comes up again, I can be more honest about what I was doing.

      For your second question, my second job, which started out as part-time but went full-time after I left my first job (because I couldn’t work 3 jobs at once) was not what I thought I would be doing. I was going to go to law school but I decided to work at a law firm before taking out a ton of loans. My job showed me what being a lawyer was like and, I realized that I did not want to be a lawyer. I used that job to launch into my current career and it seems to have worked. However, I think a big part of the success was do to equally to my major in college, which is directly related to my current career. I was lucky in that regard. My major would allow me to do what I’m currently doing, go to law school, go to business school or directly into business, with no questioning from future, potential employers. I was just unfortunate in having to start looking for work in 2009, when there was no work.

  82. Gene*

    We finally have the deceased coworker’s office (mostly) cleaned out. Now it’s time for me to start moving in. I’ve been at this desk since 1991, so it’s going to be a project.

    Tomorrow is his Memorial Service, not looking forward to it, but his wife has said it’s a celebration of his life and loves, so it will be a bittersweet affair.

    1. danr*

      I did a few of those super moves. The trick is to box everything up and decide what to throw out as you’re unboxing.
      As for the Memorial service, you might be surprised and have a good time. I’ve been at funerals that were happy and sad at the same time. And we came away with great stories to keep telling.

    2. fposte*

      Between the death and the moving into his office, it’s bound to be quite a reflective time for you. I’m with danr–memorials can be a good time for storytelling, and to me that’s a really satisfying way to remember somebody.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I’ll be a third voice on this one. You might actually find the memorial service fills your heart/mind. It might actually help in some odd way. But baseline- it usually is beneficial to get together with people who share a sense of loss, so you will at least have that much to hold on to.
      Let us know how it went on Sunday’s forum.

  83. Beancounter in Texas*

    Two notes of thanks to AAM readers:

    I wanted to thank everyone from last Friday who pointed out that the “polished, professional bookkeeper” position simply wouldn’t be a good fit. I still wanted to apply, but as I was working on my resume and cover letter, I realized that I want something different in my current employment and another job seemed like an easy solution. Plus, I’ve come to admit to myself that I dread wearing suits even for interviews, so everyday would kill me. So thanks for giving the advice I obviously needed, but was too bullheaded to accept immediately.

    Also, I posted a couple of Fridays ago asking about executive search firms. Even after the resounding “no!” given from a few people, I really wanted to believe that the firm could be a saving grace. (Apparently, eternal optimism is a trait of mine too, since I am so slow to release it and accept reality.) Then I spoke with a coworker who actually used a firm and paid thousands of dollars for… a fancy resume and no job. That really was the nail in the coffin for that idea. So again, thank you for the advice, even though I was optimistic. Y’all apparently know what y’all are talking about, so I should listen up when I get advice I don’t like.

    On the side, hubby’s job search seems to be going well. Fortunately, he’s found two positions that excite him and he interviewed this morning for one of them.

  84. hopefully*

    I need help keeping my sanity. I applied for a job a few weeks ago, immediately got an invitation to interview, and then the next week my manager noticed my lack of engagement on the job and gave me the ultimatum of re-engaging or creating a transition strategy.

    I gave it a day but ultimately told him that I was transitioning out, which he supports — but now I have a deadline to get a (better) job!! Granted, it is incredibly generous (6-8 weeks) but still nerve-wracking. I’ve been very selectively applying and while I’ve gotten some good feedback and a headhunter setting me up with another interview — I am incredibly riding my hopes on Firm A!!!

    I left a VM yesterday afternoon asking for a timeline and got an email from the person I really clicked with during my interview around two hours later. She said they were still interviewing candidates and anticipate making a final decision by the end of next week. All of which I understand and I agree with. They only did a résumé screening/one round of panel interviews, which is moving super fast. I would’ve loved the chance to go in for another interview (the panel is intimidating). I got good vibes, particularly from her, but I know it’s not a done deal until I have a job offer.

    Bottom line — HOW DO I KEEP MY SANITY HELP!!!

    1. Vancouver Reader*

      Don’t focus on the job that may or may not be, focus on doing a good job in your current position so that you leave it on a positive note. When you’re not at work, do things you enjoy or go out with friends, or whatever will keep your mind occupied on anything else besides the what if.

  85. Looby*

    How often is too often to complain about coworkers mistakes? My work relies heavy on Department X doing their jobs correctly. Mistakes from their department cause mistakes in my work, which because it deals with money, making mistakes are BAD.

    Before I begin my actual duties, I have to go through their work to make sure nothing is wrong. In the past, I would fix these mistakes and carry on. This month, it took me 45 minutes to fix their errors before I could start my 15 minute task. So I took the list of mistakes to the department supervisor and asked that she remind her staff to be more careful. I even explained to her staff (at her request) why this information needed to be correct and gave them very clear instructions on what was correct and what was being done wrong.

    Knowing this department (I used to work in there too) I have no faith that these mistakes won’t happen in the future and every month I’ll be forced to fix them before I can continue. My work is time sensitive so I can’t just wait for them to get around to it. And I won’t work on blind trust that it’ll be done correctly (at least not until they get rid of the 1 or 2 people I suspect of making these errors).

    I could easily go to her 3 times a week because of other errors the department has made but most of these errors don’t majorly affect my work so I wait until I have half a dozen examples of the same mistake and then take them to her to be fixed.

    So I guess my question is, how often is too often to point out mistakes? Should I bring up the minor errors every time I find them or continue with giving “batches” of them once I have a few? And with the major mistakes, is it even worth pointing them out anymore? The supervisor knows they are happening, but nothing gets done and I just get more and more frustrated every time I have to bring it up, especially when I’ll be the one to fix them anyway.

    And don’t worry, I’ve started looking for an escape route before I crack from dealing with incompetent people day in day out!

    1. fposte*

      Oh, that’s frustrating. When you say “I have to go through their work to make sure nothing is wrong,” that’s not technically your job, right? What I think you might have to do for your sanity is reclassify it as part of your job, because now even if their mistakes drop you won’t trust them and you will still have to check their work. I would also, if you’re staying long enough to get to review time, use that as a basis for a request for a pay bump.

      I think you’re right that reporting on the mistakes all the time isn’t going to change them. I might document for my own use the number of errors and how much time it takes to correct them; for the supervisor, I might, if I could identify any particular pattern in the errors, share that info (“it looks like one person there uses positive and negative values interchangeably”). It’s the sort of thing the supervisor should figure out for herself and implement, but if you can figure it out, it might be worthwhile for the trouble it saves you. Additionally, if you have the access to do this, I might make the point that accuracy could be tested better in the hiring process to minimize this problem in future.

      But I think it’s probably going to be this way for a while. Sorry.

      1. Looby*

        You’re correct, it’s not technically my job, but having the correct information is necessary for doing my job, so yes, even if the errors stopped, I would still be checking, I just wouldn’t be frustrated.
        The worst part is that I used to be in the position that inputs this information so I know how simple it is to do. That’s what frustrates me the most – it really isn’t rocket surgery!
        We have annual reviews in January. I hope not to still be here for them.

    2. GOG11*

      At this point, instead of pointing out individual or even batches of mistakes, could the right way to do X process, from beginning to end, be addressed? Instead of saying, this, this, and this are wrong, would it work to say what success looks like? People make mistakes through carelessness, but mistakes can also result from lacking a thorough enough understanding of the process. If the answer is always X and they can’t consistently return X, it’s probably carelessness. But if the answer you can anticipate changes based on various factors, if they don’t understand the relationship between those factors and the answer, they will probably continue to fail to catch mistakes. If you have no idea what would be considered reasonable answer, you probably wouldn’t be able to spot one that fell outside of that range.

      This suggestion is based on a lot of assumptions (that they have the motivation and ability to succeed if given a good chance to), but I still wanted to offer it in case it might work.

      1. GOG11*

        And I don’t necessarily think it’s your job to address what’s wrong, regardless of the approach that’s used to fix the problem (unless you’re the only one with the expertise to communicate this info).

        1. Looby*

          The main error they make will only ever have 1 of 2 answers.
          If X happened before November 1, 2014, the answer will always be 1.
          If X happened after November 1, 2014, the answer will always be 2.
          If, on the very very rare occasion the situation is not covered by those 2 rules, they are told to contact me and I will tell them which answer to use.

      2. hapax legomenon*

        My opinion is that instead of complaining about individual mistakes when they happen, you might go farther and get better results if you pose this as a matter of Quality Control or Quality Assurance. I don’t know your workplace well enough to know if this would help or not. But it might motivate the supervisor of this other group to push some kind of QA effort in her people (which maybe would serve her well come appraisal time).

        Because it really sounds like the problem isn’t with the people in the other group. The problem is that their manager isn’t motivated to do anything about errors. It’s easier for her to sit and listen to you complain every few days.

    3. Jennifer*

      I have similar issues at my job–I spend a lot of time fixing everyone else’s oopsys. A lot. (And today I am guess what, proofreading for errors….) Unfortunately, I have no power and am on their level and I need to stay in everyone’s good graces and be liked, so I have to really super balance out how often I tell people they screwed up. Again. And again. And again. At this point I tell them maybe a third or fourth of the time if they screwed up, and then they pout and feel conspicuously stupid and get upset and…. yeah, it’s not worth it to me emotionally to correct them a majority of the time any more. I can’t take all the “learning opportunities.” A friend of mine pointed out that there’s really no motivation for them to not be lazy about this when our jobs are all stick and no carrot, and I think she’s right.

      I think my suggestion for this would be to, IF you want to try to keep asking about this, is to do batches if this is happening all the time, rather than report every single one every single time separately. It may more of an impact on the supervisor if you bring up a giant pile of oops than a steady trickle on a daily basis. But overall, you know the answer is that you’re going to end up fixing them every time. You’ve told their supervisor, multiple times, and nothing is changing. (And really, shouldn’t the supervisor be offering to retrain them or something?) What else can you do to them? You have no power, and it only makes you madder to ask than it does to shove it down and start fixing.

      I also second fposte in that correcting their mistakes IS your job.

  86. gloria*

    Does anyone else have to regularly sit through group sessions with their boss about how they should love their job passionately? They’re not painful – it’s not like I have to do anything – but the only thing I find them motivating for is keeping up my job search! I can’t imagine anyone has ever felt genuinely inspired by an exhortation to love their job. Honestly, I can’t imagine how anyone could truly feel a passionate love for any of the jobs in this company, just based on what we do – but most of my jobs have been at non-profits with a mission I really believed in so maybe I am just particularly unsuited to the corporate world. I don’t hate my jobs, and my coworkers are great which I think is all I could ask for, but something about these sessions drives me bonkers.

    1. gloria*

      Yikes, that sounded way less obnoxious in my head! I just meant that on the one hand, this specific company with its specific purpose is one it is hard for me to imagine anyone having a passion for, but it is also my first corporate-world experience so I don’t know how much of that is specific to the company and how much is specific to me and what I want out of a job – not that I can’t imagine how anyone in the corporate world could ever love or believe in their job, or that everyone needs to love or believe in their job, or whatever. (But I really can’t imagine how anyone who doesn’t love their job is going to start loving their job because their boss shows them a slideshow.)

      1. GOG11*

        I was going to say that maybe you shouldn’t look at it as your boss telling you that being passionate about your job and being able to succeed are the same thing… however, the fact that she prepares a slideshow (rather than just getting caught up in the moment and going on and on about what she loves about her job) makes me that she is doing it for a specific purpose, like to motivate you. I wouldn’t be inspired by that, either.

        At least you don’t have to prepare a slideshow yourself?

        1. gloria*

          Four slideshows, actually! Each lasting 45 minutes to 2 hours. And he works in a different city, so these are very much scheduled in advance. It’s true though that so far I haven’t had to contribute in a real way to these things, so I can look on that bright side at least!

    2. fposte*

      A *slideshow*? Huh. That’s on the peculiar side for sure.

      Maybe, though, you could turn it around to your boss and say sincerely, “You know, I don’t think I’ve ever hears what *you* love about this job. I’d really be interested in hearing that.” Not only might that take the focus off of you, it could also be genuinely informative for you if he does love the job.

      1. gloria*

        I mentioned this above, but so far it’s been four slideshows! (Not just for me – these are office-wide events.) Your advice is super good advice for a very different situation than mine (he works in a different city so these are really the only contact most of us in this office have with him; also, I am low-key hoping to be out by year’s end) & if things were different I would definitely think about taking it, so thank you!

        1. fposte*

          Well, and somebody as diplomatic as you clearly are doesn’t need many suggestions in the interpersonal area :-).

          Does he at least turn the lights down during the slideshows? Could be good napping time.

          1. fposte*

            Sorry, re-looking at this I realize it could sound snotty–it was sincere! I thought that was the most diplomatic “That’s not anything like what’s going on” I’ve ever heard.

    3. AnonForThisOne*

      Do we work at the same place?! My company has bi-weekly luncheons where the topic is ALWAYS “What Is [Company Name]?” and we are exhorted to be passionate about our work. My feeling is that if we aren’t sure by now what our company is, we’re not going to find it in a PowerPoint.

      1. gloria*

        Luckily, these do not eat into my lunch break, but gosh, right? “Well, I hated my job* before, but a couple Steve Jobs quotes and some clip-art sure turned that around!”

    4. lawsuited*

      This reminds me of my boss who frequently walks into my office and asks me to tell him that he’s the best boss I’ve ever worked for. (Literally. He walks in and says “Tell me I’m the best boss you’ve ever worked for”.) He is, of course, the worst boss I’ve ever worked for.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        It would be so hard for me not to repeat that back verbatim.

        Me: “I’m the best boss you’ve ever worked for.”
        Boss: That’s not what I meant.
        Me: (confused) I said what you told me to say.

  87. Fante*

    Celebrations are in order… I just got a job offer! It has been a long slog, but I’m FINALLY getting out of my toxic work environment. YAY! :-D

    4. Fante*

      Thanks!

      I also wanted to add, when I went in for my interview the company had me fill out an EXTENSIVE application/’quiz’ (it took me an hour!). Among other things, they asked for salary information of all my past jobs. I did not disclose any salary information. I know AAM has said as much before, but I still was a little nervous that this might trip things up, but clearly it didn’t!

        1. Fante*

          There was a form to fill out all past employment info (company, position, dates of employment, address, phone number, supervisor, and salary)– I just left the space for salary blank. I was very thorough with the rest of the application (in other words, there was no way they could have thought it was an oversight on my part).

  88. Dr. Doll*

    Just have to vent — lots of issues right now, including someone who is generally an unsatisfactory worker overall coming completely unglued with personal problems right before a very important project comes due, people being out, technical problems, a bunch of other things, AND the person in the office next to mine has a chronic cough which is Making. Me. Crazy. I can hear it through closed doors.

    1. GOG11*

      Sorry you’re dealing with all this! I hope things start to come together for you soon so you can get your project finished.

    2. Nom d'pixels*

      Just think, in a few hours, you can go home and have the adult beverage (or cup of herbal tea, if that is your thing) of your choice and relax.
      And yeah, when someone is a problem employee, their personal problems make that so much harder to address because you want to be compassionate.

  89. jzk78*

    How is one supposed to format a salary history, especially when you don’t have much of one to speak of? I’m about to finish undergrad, and I’ve had internships/student jobs that paid hourly wages.

    Also, for resumes and cover letters, how should one discuss work experience that was obtained through…non-traditional means? I spent much of college doing theater tech, which actually taught me a ton about administrative/project management work. I’m not sure how to state that without sounding twee, especially when I’m applying for jobs not specifically aimed at college grads.

    1. fposte*

      Are you applying to something that suggests you need a salary history? It’s not inevitable.

      I would also say that an extensive involvement in theater tech is worth talking about, especially at your stage when you haven’t had much career history. Put it on the resume under “Volunteer Experience” and, if it speaks to a skill that your other history doesn’t and it’s relevant to what you’re applying for, bring that out in the cover letter. I think that’s especially true if you sustained this work for 3-4 years–that’s a significant time frame for somebody your age.

      I don’t see why it should be twee, but if you think it would help to highlight the mechanical and sweaty side as well as the interpersonal skills, go ahead (“In addition to learning the safest way to move a 500-lb. dolly and rewire a sound board in 15 minutes, I also developed skills necessary to manage a team of undergraduate volunteers from first meeting to final production”–that kind of thing).

      1. jzk78*

        Thank you! And yes, a few of the jobs I’m applying for do need a salary history or requirements–though these ones are generally a long shot anyway.

    2. Fante*

      I actually wrote about this a couple comments above yours: I just received (and accepted) a job offer. During the interview process I filled out an extensive application that asked for salary history. I simply left it blank, and evidently it was not an issue.

  90. Hermoine Granger*

    I was recently rejected for a position and received feedback that while they were very impressed with my experience they felt I was not extroverted enough to work with others. This was a small company and the position was to pretty much be a one-person marketing department working to improve their eCommerce sales. Aside from the manager that the position would be reporting into, I don’t recall any mention of anyone else the position would be collaborating with on a regular basis. However, in the course of discussing my experience, I shared examples of how I got co-workers involved with digital projects and successfully collaborated with an external partner to get PR coverage.

    I’ve spent a lot of time working on my interview skills which has resulted in my being less nervous and more conversational during interview. I thoroughly prepare for interviews, answer questions, ask questions, and am engaged during interviews. However, I’m really at a loss as to what else I’m supposed to do or what interviewers would like to see.

    1. fposte*

      Oh, I’m sorry; rejection is never pleasant. But I think you’re reading this as an overall referendum on your skills, and it wasn’t; it was an assessment of your likely cultural fit at this particular place. It’s not feedback that means you should change anything about yourself.

      1. Hermoine Granger*

        Thanks for replying. I wasn’t sure of what to do with the feedback. I’ll chalk this one up as just not being a cultural fit but will look up / practice interview questions about team work and collaborating. I figure a bit more interview prep can’t hurt.

      2. Steve G*

        Do you know what level of extrovertion you’d be willing to accept in a position?

        Maybe they just needed you to be more outgoing than your examples showed. Or maybe your example of getting the PR coverage wasn’t explained properly? What did you do to get the coverage? Because at past co where I was in operations, if I asked marketing for updated brochures or a case study, they’d eventually come back to me and ask me (or my coworker) to get the info for the case study from the customer. Most of our marketing people shielded themselves from dealing directly with customers and partners. Maybe you explicitly need to state “I organized conferences calls with them” etc. to make it clear as a bell that you actually did the customer/partner facing work?

        1. Hermoine Granger*

          Thanks for replying. I don’t have any problems speaking to people at/about work but I wouldn’t be comfortable in an environment that would require me to be the life of the party or randomly chat people up.

          I agree that maybe the way I explained examples didn’t show the level of collaboration they wanted to see. The examples I provided mentioned collaboration in passing but were more focused on how I planned and executed projects. I explained during the interview that I wrote the case studies and contacted the clients to obtain testimonials / releases (it was actually a very substantial part of my job). I then worked with the PR person to go through the completed case studies to see which should be pitched to the media and to manage obtaining proper releases and other information.

          Now that I think of it, there was somewhat of an offline version of the marketing position but it was actually more like a sales position. I’m thinking that maybe they were also looking for the qualities of the person in the sales role (extroverted and very outgoing) in the person who would fill the marketing position. If that was actually the case, I most certainly would not have been a good fit for their needs.

  91. sheesh...*

    I just attended a staff meeting in which we discussed adding an “employee of the month” program, preventing HR violations, and how to improve employee engagement. In addition, two employees who recently sexually harassed coworkers got promoted, while one employee found out that his responsibilities have been “reduced”… in the middle of the meeting with no prior conversation.

    Ugh.

    2. Cordelia Naismith*

      How to improve employee engagement?

      Step One: Don’t promote sexual harassers.

      Step Two: Tell people privately if they’re being demoted.

      Yikes.

  92. Allison*

    I got my mousy, brown hair dyed dark red a couple days ago, and worked from home after that, so today’s my first day in the office with my new look. And no one. Had said. A thing.

    For context, I work at a tech company where most people have fairly laid back but conventional styles. Some khakis and button-ups, lots of jeans and company hoodies. Hair is typically normal, although one IT guy gets a chunk of his hair dyed a funky color every now and then. So I wonder, there’s no way people aren’t noticing, are they just unsure of what to say? Could my hair color be inappropriate? With the office being so laid back about appearance I didn’t think about whether an unnatural hair color might be frowned upon.

    My role is fairly internal, I’m not interfacing with non-employees during the day, but now I’m worried management may see this new ‘do as an act of, I dunno, disrespect.

    1. ERB*

      From what you’ve said, I wouldn’t see it being a problem considering it’s a more casual environment, and the one IT guy you mentioned. Dark red sounds like it’s also closer to normal on the hair-dye spectrum than some other possible colors. I’m in an engineering-esque (land arch) company, and I dyed a chunk of my hair a funky color at one point. The only thing my boss said was “did you spill kool-aid on your hair?” (He was being funny)

    2. GOG11*

      Some people don’t comment on the bodies (and hair) of others as a general rule. Some people are just oblivious.

      If you’re concerned that management will view this poorly but you don’t want to change it in case that’s not the case, is there someone in management who you have a good rapport with who you could ask? (I dyed my hair this dark red *point to head* and it turned out less natural-looking than I’d intended. Since others usually keep their hair more conservatively colored and styled, I wasn’t sure what the company’s take is on this sort of thing. Do you think this will cause problems or is it okay?)

    3. SMT*

      I typically don’t comment on haircuts and colors because I have a habit of not noticing them until it’s been pointed out by someone else. Which means I would be saying something maybe a week or two after it actually changed.

    4. Belle & Sam*

      FWIW, I recently got several inches cut off and it took my team about a week or two to even notice. I’m pretty quiet and don’t draw a lot of attention to myself, so maybe that’s why.

    5. ThursdaysGeek*

      As an IT geek, there is a good chance I wouldn’t have noticed. I’m lucky if I notice when my spouse gets a hair cut, and I don’t notice a co-worker’s hair at all. I might think there was something different about you, but not be able to tell what it is.

    6. Fuzzy*

      I change up my hair pretty often, but the only times I get comments is if:
      -I decide to skip washing my hair and wear a headband (“I love the headband!”)
      -I have to straighten my bangs because they continue to fight me (“Did you get a haircut?”)
      -I literally don’t do anything (“Did you do something to your hair?”)

      I got my hair cut shorter than normal a few weeks ago, and literally the only people who noticed were a few middle school girls I was working with.

      Moral: People are oblivious. It’s not on you.

      1. Allison*

        That makes sense. Up until recently I had a manager who, swear to god, was the only person who’d ever notice when I got a haircut.

    7. Student*

      Get your hair colored for yourself, not for your co-worker’s attention. Don’t read into the lack of comments so much. A non-comment tells you literally nothing. You’re filling that void with speculation and insecurity.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      I had my mousy brown hair colored to match my normal color. It took people FOUR months to notice. And the way they inquired about it was to ask me how my contacts were working out for me. (I did not wear glasses. sigh)
      People tend to be self-focused when it comes to stuff like this.

    9. hapax legomenon*

      People can be strangely oblivious.

      For most of my adult life, I’ve had a beard. Every so often I’ll shave it off. And for the next week people will look at me funny and ask if I got a hair-cut.

    10. Stephanie*

      It might be a good thing! Means the hair color works on you.

      People can be really oblivious. I’ve gotten braids (and used extensions) and had people be like “…something’s different? Did you get new glasses?”

  93. BananaPants*

    I work full time as an individual contributor in a large engineering organization. I’m applying for a part time graduate program (currently taking classes prior to matriculation – this will be my second master’s) and asked my manager, Wakeen, his boss (who used to be my manager), and another manager who I worked with for recommendation letters. Boss’ boss and other manager stated that they were happy to do so – Wakeen responded by asking me to write my own recommendation letter for him! I’m told this is normal but none of my colleagues who are in grad school have had this happen, and when I applied for grad school for my previous master’s degree my reference writers didn’t ask me to write the letters myself either. I have some time to get it done but I’m aiming to get all application materials to the admissions office by mid-May. I have no idea where to start – any suggestions on how to start writing my own recommendation letter?

    2. hapax legomenon*

      When people ask me for a LoR, I’ll often ask them to write something for me. It’s basically a way for them to remind me of all of the good work we did together, and any other stuff that I would want to say about them.

      I can’t speak for anyone else, but I’ll almost certainly re-write the letter you give me (and you’ll almost certainly like my revisions).

      Really, the only “rule” would be: don’t try to BS me. Not that anyone ever *has*, but there’s always the possibility that someone might take this as an opportunity to spin Big Lies. This would be dumb on so many levels, but in short: yes, I’m going to read the letter I asked you to write, and no I’m not going to blindly sign my name to just *anything*.

  94. GOG11*

    Recently, I’ve been struggling with my job quite a bit due to office politics/culture issues (I’m pretty good at the actual job duties). I’ve put a smiley face up on my work monitor as a sort of mental token to focus on, but I’m wondering what else you all do to change your reaction to the situations or behaviors you can’t change.

    How do you keep things from bothering you? Are there specific techniques or practices that you use?

    1. wonkette*

      I’m actually working through the same issues as you (i.e. loving my actual job but not liking the office culture and politics). I’ve started journaling seriously for professional goals, career/management vision, etc. just to have something I can refer to and to explore what I want to do in a thoughtful way. It felt strange when I started because I haven’t written in a journal since I was a teenager, but it’s actually helpful to envision what’s really important for you. I’m literally just now thinking about writing on identifying behaviors/reactions I don’t like about myself and the way I can respond in the future. Then, I’m hoping this will lead to a more appropriate response the next time something bad happens. I’m definitely looking forward to what others have to say about this!

    2. Aussie Teacher*

      I actually talk out loud to myself (if no-one’s around!), acknowledging the crappy way others are behaving and that I have a right to feel angry. I also talk through how I am choosing my response to that situation rather than just reacting. And I try to forgive that person (even if I have to do it multiple times) rather than stewing on what a horrible person they are.
      You have my sympathies. Office politics and toxic people are the worst.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Choosing your response: That is huge. OP, Congratulate yourself when you are able to do this. It’s a very powerful tool and it’s good to grow that part of you.

    3. AnotherFed*

      I recognize that I can’t necessarily stop it from bothering me, but I can control my reaction. When I’m frustrated or angry, especially with people in the same meeting, I focus on trivial/silly things like maintaining good posture, finding a way to sneak particular works into a conversation, doing leg lifts under the table, or planning how I’d stage a fight scene in the conference room if I were directing an action movie and had only the objects at hand. These things take up just enough focus to give me a chance to not react or to filter a reaction when it won’t help or just isn’t worth the energy.

      Plus that ugly painting on the wall would finally have a useful purpose if Bruce Willis smashed it over someone’s head.

  95. Kay*

    Somewhat inspired by the side-gig conversation earlier this week: does anyone else do Mechanical Turk?

    If you’ve never heard of it, it’s a service run through Amazon where you can earn money by doing tiny mindless tasks for a few pennies each. Sometimes you do larger thinking tasks for $1 or so.

    I started doing it a few weeks ago when my nonprofit’s funding was thrown into disarray, and I was in a panic of “make more money to pay down all my debt in case the worst happens.” I’ve plugged away at it here and there and I’ve been pleasantly surprised by a) how much I kind of enjoy the hour or so of mindless tasks, and want to seek out more and b) how the pennies are adding up faster than I thought.

    I think there’s a lot to debate about whether it’s underpaid and ridiculous and contributing to what’s wrong with America or the greatest thing ever for people who want to work from home, but honestly: I’m liking it more than I thought. It’s a tiny but steady income stream and it works for my brain. If it can help me pay off my car a few months sooner without the stress of an actual second job, then I’m happy.

    Anyone else ever use it? Thoughts?

      1. Kay*

        Thanks, I’ll have to check it out! I think it’s an interesting social & economic experiment, if nothing else.

    2. JB*

      I’ve thought about doing it for years. I think I even signed up at one point. But I didn’t think it would be ultimately worth the time. You are making me rethink that, though, because there were definitely some things you could do while watching a tv marathon.

      1. Kay*

        Yeah honestly that’s when I do a lot of it…like that last hour or two before bed when my brain is fried. I like doing the academic surveys, like the ones about telling people your opinions on the way people behave or what you would pay for certain things, etc. Or the truly mindless stuff like transcribing receipts. You have to find what you like doing but once I found my rhythm I earn about $5 a day. My favorite right now is tagging things on satellite maps – I get to look at so many interesting places, and it’s cool to be part of a big mapping project.

    4. Student*

      From your description, it mainly sounds like a way to avoid paying minimum wage and/or taxes for work. I don’t like that kind of thing because it undermines something that I think is important to the financial well-being of society.

      Sure, there are tasks that are hard to justify paying someone $7 per hour for. Do those tasks need to be done if they aren’t worth that much, though? Could they be automated? Could someone increase the price of the item to compensate more appropriately for the required labor? Should the job be going to some third-world person who’s struggling to eat, instead of someone in a first-world country looking to make a few pennies while watching soaps? Finally, what kind of mark-up is someone getting off your hand labor – could you cut out the middleman and make a lot more money for the same basic work?

      1. Kay*

        So I think that is an interesting and legitimate argument against it. I’ve actually thought about those things as well. Part of why I wanted to come here to ask about it was to hear more discussion like that!

        Done, right, though, it can pay $7 an hour or more if you keep up on those mindless tasks. That’s about what I’m earning. It’s incredibly flexible, down to the minute, for what you earn. I have no intention of dodging taxes on the earnings. It’s a tiny little part time job, and I’ll report it as such.

        Could some of those tasks be done by people in other countries? Probably, yeah. That’s an interesting moral question. Most of the tasks do require a solid internet connection, because it’s a lot of user-testing type of stuff. I like doing the academic surveys, which rely on certain demographics and background, so I know they’re looking for me and my opinion.

      2. Marcela*

        As far as I understood, no, they cannot be automated. You perform tasks such surveys, which make no sense to give to a machine to do, or translate, which is something that need a lot of improvement to be considered useful for most normal situations, or count/notice/distinguish patterns, images or structures in pictures or maps, something incredible hard for a machine to do, maybe even impossible.

        It worries me, though, what you said about minimal wage. I would agree about the third world person “deserving” a job more than me (this is a complicated idea), but you know what, very poor people do not have the computers to do these tasks. It is not that easy…

    5. Mephyle*

      Yes, I’ve been Turking for about 4 or 5 years. Not very seriously – probably an average of about $100 a year. I spend it all on books. I look at it as ‘free money for books’.
      Re Student’s comments: people who make serious money Turking do declare it as income.
      Cutting out the middleman – the thing is, there are hundreds or thousands of people posting diverse tasks, and thousands of workers. How could they get the taskmasters together with the workers without the middleman?
      Could these tasks be automated – no, they can’t; that’s the point. These are tasks that need some human input. They get posted on Mechanical Turk precisely because they can’t be done automatically.

    1. ThursdaysGeek*

      Yup! I had a question recently but it wasn’t Friday, so the question ended up there instead of here.

  97. ERB*

    I’ve got a good news/bad news situation: I have an potential interview, but it’s with a client where my current company is in the middle of completing work on a large project. On the plus side, this gives me a lot of background information on the agency and the people I would be working with that other candidates don’t have. Also, if I were go through and be offered the job, it would be a great opportunity and it would drastically reduce my commute and increase my salary. On the downside, I am nervous word will get back to my current company, who I do enjoy working for, and I really don’t want to burn any bridges. The position I’m interviewing for would be a brand-new position for the agency, which I have some reservations about, knowing our interactions with them. Overall, it’s something I’m excited about, but how should I go about it tactfully and discretely?

    1. Steve G*

      I don’t think it is a huge deal if you’re upfront with the other agency to be discreet (which I’m sure they will be). I can think of 5 coworkers off the top of my head from past co that interviewed at companies we did work with, all stayed with us, and it wasn’t a “skeleton in the closet.”

      I think your bigger problem is that this is a new position, and you have some reservations about how that is gonna work with the new company. New positions can be hard!

  98. Going Anonymous For This*

    Is there ever a time when you can let an interviewer know that you have an offer from another company in order to speed up the hiring process? This is a hypothetical, so I don’t have a real world example, but I do have an offer and wonder what I would do if another company wanted to interview me before I accepted from the first company. I am taking Alison’s advice and keep applying for jobs right up until I would start NewJob.

    1. literateliz*

      I did this, and I think I did it partially based on advice I found here, although some of it was just beginner ham-handedness on my part. I interviewed with a company at 2 p.m. on Thursday and they called me with an offer at 4:30, and then I interviewed with another company at 9 a.m. on Friday. I don’t remember why I told the interviewer about my other offer–I think it came up organically somehow, maybe when we were talking about hiring timelines? It wasn’t to speed up the hiring process, and I don’t think that’s really a good thing to expect, but I did want to let her know where I stood. I just dug up the follow-up email I sent after that interview, and this is what I said:

      “As I mentioned in the interview, I’ve been offered another job, and I wanted to let you know that they’re giving me until the end of the day on Wednesday to respond. As I said then, [your company] has always been my first choice; I’m really excited about this position, and it’s exactly what I envision myself doing in publishing. I think you said you were hoping to make a decision by Wednesday; I know these things take time and I hope I’m not being pushy, but if there’s any way you could let me know on Wednesday where the decision stands, it would be really helpful to me.”

      She did get back to me on Wednesday and I’m still in that job 2.5 years later! From stories here, I think my current employer might be a unicorn of courteousness and respect for job-seekers, but it’s certainly worth a try. (The other company wanted an answer immediately and balked when I asked for more time to decide–which was partially my fault for not handling it super smoothly–and then never responded when I emailed them to turn down the offer. Good riddance.)

      1. Going Anonymous For This*

        Thanks! That helps a lot. I am applying to a job today and I doubt I will hear anything before I accept the other job. But once I accept, then it will certainly not be an option. Meaning, you would never go back on an offer you’d accepted for another job that came up afterwards, especially if there is no offer, right? Or am I wrong?

        1. literateliz*

          Yes, exactly. I had an offer that I hadn’t accepted and an interview that I hoped I could turn into an offer, and I wanted to weigh the possibilities with as much information as possible.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Wait, wait, that’s not my advice! It’s actually somewhat risky to continue applying for jobs after you’ve accepted one. If your new employer hears about it, they’ll rightfully become concerned about your commitment to them.

      I have advice on juggling multiple offers here:
      http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/outside-voices-careers/2012/05/21/how-to-juggle-multiple-job-offers

      … but that’s different than continuing to apply/interview after accepting a job.

    3. fposte*

      Sure, I think it makes sense to do, and I appreciate it when candidates let me know. It doesn’t guarantee I can change the time frame, but it’s good information.

      However, I think it’s usually for later in the process than waiting for an interview. For one thing, they’re not going to be able to move through interviews to an offer in time for you to balance the jobs against each other (you’d really have to be stringing along the employer who’s already tendered an offer); for another, it seems presumptuous when you’re still one of a double-digit pool of candidates. I think it’s fair game to say once they’ve said they want to interview you, but even there the time probably won’t work; mostly you have to be close to or at offer stage to be able to arrange the time so you could have both at the same time and pick one.

  99. Erin*

    I’m asking this question on behalf of my husband, but I’m the reason behind it. My husband Wakeen was planning on taking 5 days off for the birth of our baby, and cleared this in advance with his boss. His company offers 1 day of paternity leave, and the rest would be pto. He has 15 days total combined sick and vacation.

    I went into labor on Monday the 9th, baby was born on the 10th, and Wakeen’s planned first day back was supposed to be this Monday. Unfortunately he ended up spending all day with me in the ER. I’ve had a very rare but serious complication that is going to require a lot of follow up care and potentially surgery. In addition to all day Monday, Wakeen had to take half days off two other days this week to go to various tests and appointments with me. I will need more tests, follow up checks and potentially hospitalization in the short and medium term, but no one knows for sure what the long term prognosis is.

    How much should Wakeen tell his boss about the overall situation? He works from home and his boss is in a different state. He’s not eligible for FMLA because there are only 4 employees in this state. He’s been noting any time taken off correctly in the system, and trying to make up hours when possible. His boss is normally pretty hands off and lets my husband manage his own time and projects.

    1. SMT*

      Sorry to hear about your medical issues, but congratulations on the baby!

      Can he tell his boss that you’re dealing with some unexpected complications, and that while he is completing work when he can, the original plan simply wasn’t enough to cover these unexpected complications?

    2. Snork Maiden*

      Congratulations on your new baby, and I am so sorry you are having complications. I hope you get better soon.

      Were I Wakeen, I’d just say that your spouse is having serious unexpected complications, and keep them updated regularly as to time away. Childbirth is a major undertaking and I’m sure if his manager lets him handle things on his own he trusts Wakeen’s judgment.

      1. Erin*

        Thanks to both of you! I think for Monday he did shoot his boss an email early on saying that he needed to take another day. I should also mention that the baby is doing great!

    3. Treena Kravm*

      Remember that FMLA is a legal requirement, but even if he’s not eligible, his boss/company can still give him unpaid time off! I would be upfront about the fact that there’s a medical issue and ask if how he’s been handling it so far (half days for appts, noting it in the system, and making up hours) is a good system to continue in light of the medical complications.

      And congratulations!

    4. Fante*

      Congratulations! I’m sorry you’re dealing with complications now. That must be incredibly hard, regardless of your husband’s work situation. I agree with what others have said; he should communicate the basics of what is going on but not more unless they have that type of working relationship.

      Unfortunately Treena, FMLA is only applicable to companies with more than 50 employees. (I learned that the hard way when I had my baby last year.) None the less, everything surrounding childbirth is unpredictable. People know that, and should be willing to accommodate whatever comes up.

      1. Treena Kravm*

        Right, I was saying that he’s not eligible for a legally mandated benefit (FMLA). But there’s no law that says his employer *can’t* give him that benefit. And since FMLA is basically unpaid time off with the assurance that his job is safe, it’s not an unreasonable request to make, especially since it sounds like it’s intermittent and he’s still getting the bulk of his work done. And also despite business needs, employers usually have a heart. If you need to be with your wife who is sick because of a complication from the birth of your newborn, I think it would be tough to find a manager who wasn’t sympathetic at all to that situation.

  100. Anonsie*

    I’m hoping someone can tell me whether it’s my friend or I that’s more misguided here.

    I have a college friend who went into academia but decided a year ago that he wants to move into the for-profit world. He wants to go into user experience research since some amount of it lines up with the things he liked about academic research, but he also wants to leave his current city. What he’s done in the last year+ is work on getting a certificate to that effect from his institution (since the classes are free for him anyway) and attend a lot of networking events.

    I’ve encouraged him to look for jobs in the cities he’s interested in throughout this process but so far he’s rejected the idea on the grounds that he doesn’t have the education or professional network to get hired, so he’ll be wasting his first impressions. He’s trying to get the cert totally finished, a network, and possibly some UX experience in his current city before he’ll apply in any others. Then he’ll want to stay at that job for at least ~2 years so he doesn’t look like a job hopper. I really feel like this is a good recipe for never, ever being able to leave his city, and I don’t see why that first low-level position can’t be somewhere else if he wants to be somewhere else. On the other hand I don’t want to push it either because I don’t know a ton about the field. I don’t really know what to tell him.

    I get the impression he’s going at it they way you would in academia because that’s what he knows, and that approach is not great for this situation. But maybe I’m wrong, I don’t know. Can I get some impressions?

    1. HeyNonnyNonny*

      I don’t know if it’s an academic thing or not, but your friend shouldn’t be worried about “wasting his first impressions.” Unless the field is tiny, there are going to be so many chances for him to use first impressions on all sorts of people in all the different cities that interest him.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Maybe he has a strong need to get better footing on this one. It’s hard to say which way to go here. Since this is your friend, not you, I tend to think that people know what way will work best for them. If they try to do it my way, they could “hurt” themselves. Likewise the reverse is true, if I try to do something my friend’s way, I could screw it up big time. I am not comfortable using my friend’s method- it’s not in keeping with my personality/worldview/whatever.

  101. Beth*

    What’s the appropriate time for an employer to get back to someone after requesting references? I thought I was at the final stage and it’s been a week since I sent them in. Are they just putting together an official offer letter? Perhaps – but it would be nice to have some confirmation. I have been contacted by other potential employers and it’s tough to schedule interviews when you’re waiting on information this important.

    1. Colette*

      Like everything else about job hunting, you can’t tell how long it will take, and you don’t have an offer until you have an offer. Maybe the hiring manger is sick, or they’re debating whether they can afford to hire someone right now, or the person who prints out the offer letter is on vacation, or they heard something from one of your references that raises concerns about your fit. Maybe there was a crisis with a major customer that everyone was focusing on, or one of your references is unavailable, or the CEOs deadbeat son needs a job.

      Go on the other interviews and let the offer, if it arrives, be a pleasant surprise.

    2. costume teapot*

      It might be worth reaching out to them and letting them know they are your top contender, but you are exploring other options until you hear otherwise from them. Sometimes hearing someone else wants you can light a fire under their butts to send you something. ;)

      1. Colette*

        I think you can do that once you have another offer, but before that, you’re pretty much saying “I’m still job hunting”, which … of course you are. You haven’t been offered a job yet.

        1. AnonForNow*

          I agree. I’m in a similar situation. I’ve given them everything they need – ball’s in their court.

  102. Overthinking Anon from a few weeks ago*

    I posted in the open thread a few Fridays ago about a job that I thought maybe I wasn’t qualified for, or they would have negative memories of a previous application I made. Thanks to the posters who told me to just do it, I submitted an application yesterday. Beforehand, I worked with someone to rewrite my entire resume from scratch for the first time in 15 years with a less imposter-syndrome-ish framing than had before, focusing on higher level responsibilities rather than a laundry list of tasks. It’s much shorter and better so even if I get kicked to the curb on this one application, I’m much better off for future job searching.

    Thanks to fposte and other commenters for their clarity on this!

    1. fposte*

      Good luck! Sounds like the resume-rewrite was a good plan for the future in general, too.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Even if you do not get the job, you have a huge leg up already for getting that next job. Stuff like this makes me smile. You won something already.

  103. Calla*

    I think similar questions to mine have been addressed before but not the particulars.

    My current job is not great, and I am currently casually looking (despite layoffs, my position is good enough that I’m not desperate). There is one company that I applied to a month or two ago, and also applied to about a year ago when I was in the job search that led to this job. The one a year ago resulted in an interview, the time 1-2 months ago got no response. I’d really like to work for them–former coworkers say it’s an amazing company, they pay higher than standard, and it’s like a 5 minute bus ride or 15 minute walk from where I live.

    So, LAST Friday an internal recruiter from that company reached out to me about another job. I responded within 2 hours that I was interested. Since then, no response from her.

    Should I follow up with her? Should I just apply to the job online? Both? I don’t want to come off like “PLEASE TAKE ME.”

    1. Aussie Teacher*

      If she reached out to you about another job, I’d apply online and also send my resume directly to her, telling her you’ve applied through their system and are excited by the job and would love to talk further etc.

    2. lawsuited*

      Many recruiters can’t put you forward for a job if you’ve already applied to the company directly (because they wouldn’t collect their fee), so I’d send your resume to the recruiter and exhaust your options with her before applying to the company directly. A recruiter can be an advocate for you that you wouldn’t usually get, and if the recruiter puts you forward and the company still doesn’t want to interview you, a recruiter will usually share the reasons why with you so you’re better informed for next time.

  104. AnonToday*

    I am so, so frustrated with my job right now. Our org is experiencing some serious technological growing pains, and somehow I have become the default troubleshooter because we don’t have a dedicated IT person (don’t even get me started on THAT decision, ugh). I’m just tired of people complaining to me that their internet is too slow, or a particular website isn’t loading correctly, or blah blah blah. I understand that it makes it really hard for you to do your job, but I don’t have any magic answers.

    Part of me would feel kind of bad about leaving my job right now, and part of me – the part I’m actually going to listen to – says I need to spend the weekend sending out resumes, because this situation is not going to change.

    1. Steve G*

      Send out those resumes.

      I worked at a small company very briefly that was like this. No IT or people to help with tech issues, even though it was in a borderline tech field. All of that kind of stuff went through one person. If they never heard of xyz solution, or didn’t have time to fix abc, the problem or the solution didn’t work. That’s how they worked. Very dysfunctional to me.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Can you do a sheet of FAQs and pass it around?
      When someone does ask you one of those well worn-out questions, you can point to the FAQ sheet.

  105. SMT*

    I have finally started to look for a new job seriously after putting in over five years at my current company. It’s a big company that should have room to grow in, but there doesn’t seem to be room for me. I’m one of those underemployed college grads – I went to college to become a high school teacher, then started working at my company in food & beverage because I desperately needed any job. I’ve moved up to a supervisor role, and although my managers would like to see me grow into an assistant manager, I really don’t want to. I’ve figured out that I would probably be a good fit for a training role, and have applied to two jobs this week for such roles in retail. Has anyone else made the transition from food & beverage to retail? I immediately assume that hospitality is hospitality, but maybe there’s more to it that I should reflect on before sending out any more cover letters or actually sitting down to an interview (fingers crossed)?

  106. Darth Admin*

    Success story! I had a difficult conversation with a direct report about chronic tardiness and how it was affecting her work and the work of my team, and she has been on time or early every day since the conversation. :)

  107. LLL*

    This isn’t a problem I ever imagined having at this stage in my career (recent grad/young professional) but how do you turn down a job offer? I’m excited about having the offer in the first place, but I’m not excited about the location (I’m trying to relocate closer to home) and they want me to cut my contract job significantly shorter (which I actually really love and wouldn’t want to leave earlier than I have to). So I’ve made the difficult choice of turning it down without any back-up offers (although one company close to home is checking my references right now!!).

    What do I do? I have an idea of what I will say and how I can convey that I really am grateful for this offer, but it’s just not the right time/circumstances for me to be staying in this city. I was thinking about calling, but is that something that no one does anymore?

      1. LLL*

        Thanks, Allison! I did read that last night–along with every other article you’ve tagged under ‘job offers’ and while I did the deed earlier today, I used a lot of the advice there–how to be as gracious as possible, what sort of language works best, keep it to the point, and I decided in the end that I should call the hiring manager, with a follow-up email afterwards.

    2. jamlady*

      I think the bigger issue here is that they’re wanting you to leave a position in which you’re under contract. That’s kind of a big deal. I’ve worked for companies that would have burned that bridge immediately had I left before the end of the contract. The timing on this job is off and that’s something you should consider mentioning – you’re already committed to something else. Also, I prefer to do this by phone since it’s gone so far as to have been made an offer. They’ve expressed the absolute highest interest in bringing you on and I think it’s worthy of a phone call to discuss the situation and explain that, while the job is great and you’re grateful, the timing and location is just not a great fit right now. The location is something you could have potentially figured out wasn’t a good fit before going so far into the hiring process. I really think the timing is a bigger issue and the discomfort of leaving a contract early will be a more understandable factor.

      1. LLL*

        I did make a phone call in the end, along with a follow-up email about 30 minutes after we spoke. It went as well as hoped; I plan on connecting with the hiring manager on LinkedIn later tonight and maybe our paths will cross again when the timing is right.

        1. jamlady*

          Yay! It’s always worrisome that they’ll be grumpy about you declining the offer. I’m glad they’re understanding and hopefully you can keep a relationship with them for future (and more timely) opportunities.

      2. Judy*

        When I think of contract employees, I think of the ones in STEM in the US. They’re temporary contractors that are W2 employees of a contract agency. I can’t imagine any company thinking a bridge was burned if a contract employee accepts a full time permanent position anywhere.

        If it’s not a US based contractor position, then ignore this.

        1. jamlady*

          I’m in this US and I’ve worked in and out of STEM for years. The only companies who understood were ones who had individuals in low-level and open-ended contracts. The roughest companies have been large firms with specific start and end dates. I actually think my STEM contracts were much more harsh, but they were rarely open-ended contracts. In essence, you commit to the entirety of the contract from start to finish and it’s not very appreciated to pull out of that commitment early. Again though, not always that bad.

        2. LLL*

          It’s a US-based contract position–in an organization that is not STEM, but works very closely with the STEM companies and their employees in the area. I’m lucky in that this is a contract with a very clear end date (which is coming up in another 2 months) but we’ve had contractors leave before the end date when there are lulls in projects and it’s always been on good terms (from what I could see).

  108. Just Another Techie*

    I’ve done a bit of interviewing for intern candidates in the last year, but today was the first time I interviewed a candidate for a full time position. So nerve-wracking! I don’t think I ever appreciated in my past job hunts that the interviewer could be nervous too! The candidate is highly desirable on paper and has interviews with several companies in our field, in a bunch of locations around the country, and I thought she was great in my interview, so I was super worried about scaring her off. Especially when we got the point where she could ask questions, she had lots of questions about quality of life in our town, amenities, workplace culture. Obviously I answered honestly but given that I have no idea what she’s looking for on those scales, I wasn’t sure what to emphasize or whether I might have overlooked something that would have made a difference, like the local music scene, or whatever. Eek!

    1. Vancouver Reader*

      You answered best you could, and unless you could crawl inside her head to see what she wanted to know, she would have to make a decision based on your experiences of living there. Hope she accepts the job.

  109. costume teapot*

    I got the job I have been gunning for! Its an AMAZING way to start my professional career as I have the opportunity to be the first of my kind for a growing company and to structure the entire department. Also, its doing exactly what I want to do with my career. I couldnt be more excited!

    Thanks Alison for your website helping me through the last 9 months after graduating, the bar, and job hunting. Thanks to commenters for your insightfulness, support, and encouragement!!!

  110. Aardvark*

    A few weeks ago I asked for advice on writing better emails in the Friday open thread, and I want to say thank you for your help!

    I’ve done a few things based on the conversation that have helped a lot:
    1) I wrote an email outline and put it on a post-it right next to my computer screen.
    2) I started clarifying my main point before I begin writing, rather than using the writing process to formulate my thoughts.
    3) If I use an adverb or adjective, I re-read the sentence. It’s work, not a novel.
    4) If I’m struggling, I’ll set a 5 minute timer to help me focus.
    5) I’ve also adopted the philosophy that “It’s better than good, it’s good enough”. I’ve been reading others’ emails more critically and you know what? They’re not perfect either. My boss expects to know when the teapots are done and he doesn’t care if it is a perfectly composed ode to teapot deadlines.

    Thanks! Y’all are the best!

  111. Toeing the line?*

    I work at a nonprofit that’s internally pretty broken, but on the cusp of restructuring. I’m trying to make a decision as to whether or not I should leave. I’m particularly close to a major advisor to the nonprofit, who has pretty good insight on where the organization is headed– would it be inappropriate to approach him for career advice? Hope you pitch in with some thoughts!

  112. Beckajo*

    I’m pretty new at my job and I LOVE it. It’s got everything I could ask for…enjoyable tasks, clear expectations, opportunity to learn new skills, great coworkers and managers, perfect commute. I’m also great at it…in my sixth month review, I was told I was exceeding all expectations AND that my performance was in line with people who’d been there two years or more. I even won Employee of the Month!

    The only thing the job doesn’t have is room to advance. (The pay isn’t great either, but it’s sufficient for now.) It’s a state position, and they’re overburdened with managers as it is.

    So, I’m looking around for ways to build the skills to move on to better opportunities, and I’m not sure how pushy I should be about it.

    1. I’ve asked my direct supervisors for advice on how to build my skills, and they’ve indicated it’s a matter of learning on the job. I’ve been accessing the various resources that are at my disposal (documentation, training materials, etc.) but it’s just been kind of random. Would it be okay for me to go back to them, explain what I’ve been covering, and ask for them to give me some more specific direction on what would be most useful for me to focus on?

    2. There’s an outside contact that I’ve learned of, who works for a private company that does the sort of thing that I am most fascinated by in my job. I’d like to reach out to her and see about setting up an informational networking meetup, but since I learned of her through a forwarded e-mail from my supervisor, I’m not sure if it’s appropriate to do so. At the least I think I’d have to tell my supervisor I’m doing it, and I’m not sure how to approach that conversation.

    My supervisors have been supportive of me looking for a job over our expected summer layoff (they’ve both agreed to be references), but I’m not sure if they’ll be so cool with me openly trying to learn skills that will move me out of the office. I’m definitely planning on staying at least two years, but most of the people in the office have been there five or more. I’m a bit worried that they might think my enthusiasm for my job is an act if I start looking for outside connections.

    1. MsM*

      I don’t think it would throw up any red flags for you to tell your supervisor you’d love to learn more from Outside Contact about her experiences with [thing], and you’re wondering if Supervisor could facilitate an introduction. That is, assuming Supervisor is an actual contact and not just someone who occasionally attends the same events and has wound up on the same mailing lists with her. In which case it still wouldn’t hurt to ask, but you could probably just reach out on your own.

      In terms of skill building, I think you need to have some kind of plan for what you want to develop or where you think you maybe don’t know as much as you need to know, and ask them for guidance with that in mind. Otherwise, you’re likely to get equally random recommendations or more advice to figure it out as you go.

      1. Beckajo*

        Good advice! I’ve begun to narrow down the parts of this field that I’m particularly fascinated by (verifying the authenticity of chocolate teapots) and so I’ll focus my requests for guidance on finding those resources. My direct supervisor mentioned that there hadn’t been a training in that for about six years, so maybe they’ll even think about setting one up.

        The outside contact person really is a contact – she was actually the one who used to do the trainings in this area and my supervisor contacts her occasionally when we need outside eyes for verification. I already told my direct supervisor how awesome I thought this person sounded from her e-mail, so following up for an introduction probably isn’t going to be a problem. Thanks for giving me the reassurance to do it.

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I read that! I was really glad that the response called him out on being the one who’s sexualizing these encounters. Gross gross gross.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      This is a person that cannot set work place boundaries. He invites the open conversations to continue because he does not put his foot down. Then he is surprised by his own sexual confusion.
      DUH. He would not be confused if he had BOUNDARIES.

      I sincerely doubt he is helping these women. If anything he is probably holding them back.

  114. Rosa*

    I decided to get a part time job since I recently quit my well paying job for a job that pays a lot less in another industry (at a company where there is a clear path to advancement in as little time as a year). I interviewed for a receptionist position a few weeks ago. I was surprised how seriously they took that interview. I ended up getting the job, but I was a little shocked at the formality of the interview. There was a test and a sit down interview. I wasn’t expecting that for a receptionist job. I really had to think through and convey the right personality/answers. For a position where you answer and transfer phones.. why was it so hard to get the job? am I missing something?

    1. JB*

      The receptionist is the first person many people interact with in a company, so it’s important to make the right impression. As someone whose first office job was as a receptionist, I can tell you that being a good receptionist takes intelligence and skill.

    2. AnonToday*

      The receptionist is literally the first impression of a company on a current or potential client, business partner, etc. Why wouldn’t they take fit for that role very, very seriously?

    3. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      Well, it is probably hard to get because they have a lot of applicants, and it’s something that many people could be potentially qualified for (on paper) but few people are really awesome at. I’ve worked with many receptionists – some were awesome, some were okay, and some were awful. I’d be screening for disposition, ability to stay on task despite interruption, conflict resolution skills, customer service skills, “managing up” skills, verbal communication, written communication, and also making sure I had somebody smart enough not to screw it up.

      1. Rosa*

        Interesting. I suppose since it was my first job out of college, I figured anyone could do it, and its a position that doesn’t take much actual skill. I guess time will tell.

  115. noidontwanttogivefeedback*

    I’m handing in a surprise resignation next week, and was wondering how honest I should actually be in my exit interview. I’m leaving because my boss is disorganized to a point where it places a significant burden on me to keep the org running, is a huge downer because of the vague and passive aggressive feedback he gives, and makes really terrible hiring decisions that he later regrets because he places a greater emphasis on pedigree than proven ability. They’re also breaking the law in some major ways with employee classification.

    I’ve brought these individual problems to his attention throughout my two year career here, but nothing has changed as a result. He’s most likely the one to conduct the exit interview. Should I bother being honest, or should I just stick to some canned line about how I didnt see myself fitting with the direction the org is going to take? This is my first job out of college, and I don’t want to burn bridges, as I’ve heard him say some pretty nasty things about former employees during reference calls.

    1. Treena Kravm*

      Because of your knowledge about the reference calls, I would keep it blasé. Maybe report the employee classification stuff to the appropriate places, if you feel you must do something. Remember, even if you already have a job to move onto, his reference is what’s going to make and break your ability to get the third job.

    2. Traveler*

      I wouldn’t be honest with him. I wish, really wish, we could be in exit interviews but even if you don’t list him as a reference he could still be contacted. He sounds like the kind of person that has the potential to be vindictive. I would also be prepping how you will handle this in future interviews – finding a way to be honest about the situation without trashing him.

    3. Helka*

      You’re having the exit interview with him? Ohh yeah, don’t even touch that can of worms. Keep it bland and get the heck out!

      1. Windchime*

        Yep. I declined to give an exit interview at my previous job. They didn’t care about my concerns when I raised them while employed; why would they care when I was leaving?

  116. LTX*

    Today is my last day at this job, and I could not possibly be more excited!! I start a new job on Monday and this blog was part of the reason I even started looking for a new job–as is often preached here, I realized that nothing was going to change and my best option was to leave.

    I could write a book about all the weird stories here, but for your entertainment I present the top three: (1) My boss gives regular feedback, which you would think would be great, except the feedback I usually get is, “You need to do a better job of knowing what I’m thinking.” (No, my job title is not “Resident Psychic.”) (2) When I started a year ago there were seven employees and now there are twenty, but in the year I’ve worked here he has fired ten people, with zero notice or warnings. (3) Once, after ordering lunch for the staff, I was chastised in a company-wide email for wasting company money because we had half a pound of barbeque left over.

    You can’t imagine the happy dance I shall do on my way out of this building today.

    2. Traveler*

      Re #3, would he have preferred that the employees that came late to the lunch went hungry??

      1. LTX*

        Traveler, he expected me to order exactly the right amount. (see also: not Resident Psychic) What made it worse is that for that particular lunch he had told me what to order, so it was his own fault there was too much food! A few of my coworkers felt badly for me, and after that they’d make sure to eat as much as possible so there were no leftovers.

        And no, I didn’t point out that I’d only ordered what he instructed; in our company that would be considered an excuse and excuses are never welcome.

  117. Mrs. Uncomfortable*

    Hi Everyone, I would like some advice or comments on an issue that I am currently dealing with. Any ideas are welcomed.
    So here it goes….
    My parents friends offered me a position within their company to help with answering phones and completing any extra administrative work while I look for a position to start my career.
    The general manager that they have hired has been making me uncomfortable. I have a separate room in the office with 2 empty cubicles, and he has recently moved in.
    Since he has moved in he has been making comments about replacing me and how easy it would be. I went to my parents friends who own the company and asked them if he could fire me. They said no, that they owned the company and don’t know what he’s talking about.

    However, just the other day I heard him on the phone with another family friend that I know, and a very good friend of the owners as well. I mentioned that he should say I said hello. After that he puts his headphones in and walks out of the room. He comes back in and mentions to me that I am not allowed to mention that phone call and who was on the other side of that phone call to anyone. He said that he needed 100% guarantee from me that I will not mention that call to anyone. He said my job here at this company depends on it. It was a clear threat.
    Making me very uneasy and uncomfortable. I have never before been asked or should I say demanded of such a thing here.
    Why would I not be allowed to mention that phone call to the owners?
    And why does he keep threatening my position?!

    1. Job-Hunt Newbie*

      I would talk to the owners. He’s creating a hostile work environment, and his behavior needs to be addressed immediately.

      1. fposte*

        To be clear, this is not a hostile work environment in the legal sense; it’s not related to Mrs. Uncomfortable’s membership in any protected class. His behavior is weird, but it isn’t illegal.

        I think you’ve gotten the info from the owners, Mrs. U–these are empty threats, and you don’t need to pay attention to them. But you’ve also informed them about this and they haven’t been bothered enough to deal with him about them, so they don’t seem to care much. So I might directly respond to this: “Bob, I’ve talked to the Faraways and they state that they, not you, have firing authority over me. So let’s talk about the issue behind this that’s making you say things like that, which is the way we work together. What can we do to make that better?”

    2. Rosa*

      That is harassment. You should definitely discuss that with the owners. Don’t blame yourself. He clearly has a problem.

    3. Colette*

      Personally, that threat would make me more likely to mention the phone call, not less. I think you should bring the whole thing up to the owners – i.e. he threatened your job if you mentioned that he was on the phone with X and you thought they should know about that. And then I’d let it go – you’ve already mentioned his threats and have been told he can’t follow through. Ignore them and go about doing your job well.

    4. Traveler*

      Start looking for another job, and talk to the owners. Be very specific about what you heard, what he said, and that you are uncomfortable with the situation.

      I would bet he is up to no good and is trying to wield power and threats he does not have to silence you.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Having dealt with some threats myself, what I do is repeat the threat back to the person. So in your case I would say “So you are telling me that if I say anything about that phone call, my job is in jeopardy?”
      Usually they back pedal. But if he says yes, you have everything you need to go forward. And I would go forward and report that remark.

      I am not sure why this situation is continuing and seeming to get worse. That concerns me. These are your parents’ friends? Something is rotten in Denmark. I hope you continue to look for work.

    6. hapax legomenon*

      Woah. That sounds scary as hell to me. Maybe you didn’t intend to write it this way, but it sounds like this GM is doing something *way* wrong. Like – I don’t want to make you paranoid, but I’m concerned about your physical safety.

      I’d call the owners, tell them about the call, and the threat, and ask them what’s going on. It could be something innocent – planning a surprise party or something. If no such easy explanation is forthcoming, tell them that you can’t come into work until the matter – whatever it is – is resolved. I’m of the opinion that they owe you an explanation of what was going on, and how it has been resolved. At the very least, this general manager needs to be “counseled” about making threats – this is if the whole thing concerns a surprise party. My gut feel is that it’s not so innocent, and the general manager needs to be fired.

      Call your parents and tell them about this. Ask them not to get involved, but – yup, I’m paranoid – it would be good for them to know about this situation. I don’t know what’s going on; it could be an affair, it could be some kind of underhanded dealing, it could be that this GM is screwing the owners somehow. Just: keep yourself safe.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I have seen this escalate to death threats, but not very often. Best bet is early intervention so OP does not even have to deal with escalation. Make a plan, OP. Decide that it is not okay for him to talk to you this way. Tell someone that you need a back up here.

  118. Job-Hunt Newbie*

    Update from my last open thread post!

    I have been offered an in-person interview at the employer I discussed. They are covering all travel and lodging expenses, which is extremely helpful. I am less than one week away from my interview.

    The turnaround from my interview to a decision being made is just over one week. What are your tips for negotiating salary? I will not be negotiating or asking for relocation, but a few days off early on for a wedding I am in. There was no salary listed in the job posting, but I’ve found averages for positions in close-by states and for similar positions in the country. This is a job I would love to work at, so if I am made an offer, I want to be able to start negotiating as soon as possible, should I receive an offer. What’s the best way to word it?

    1. Steve G*

      I’m sure there is an AAM post on this….

      But glassdoor is your friend, baby! My only word of caution is that I’ve seen salaries lower than what I’ve known people at certain companies to be making (for ex. saw “analyst” going anywhere from $45-$60K at a past I’m interviewing at, even though I know at least some analysts make in the $70s…), so take the salaries as a general idea of how good an employer pays, not of the exact amount a job should pay (if you see hourly rates in the $12/$14 range in the accounting dept, for ex., you know they probably aren’t gonna pay well overall)

      1. Job-Hunt Newbie*

        I figured I would ask because there’s no sign of the potential salary they could offer, so I wanted to be prepared since I’ve done some research on my own. Crossing my fingers that if this does end up with an offer, it’s a number I can work with!

        This one would be salaried (not hourly…can’t wait to say goodbye to that!), so I’ll take what you’ve said into consideration about it potentially being lower than what it actually is.

        Thank you!

    2. BeckyDaTechie*

      I just successfully negotiated myself a 5% higher base pay grade than the position normally offers in this way: Do the math ahead of time. There was a letter last week in which a (supposed) job seeker took an offer of $45.00+/hr and then emailed to say “I want more”. He still flaked because he didn’t get the exact amount he wanted, but he made himself look like, at best, a disorganized boob for not knowing what he wanted/needed when he took the offer. If you know you need $700/week to pay the bills and Sallie Mae, you know you can’t take less than that before you even go in, and you won’t be talked down to something that won’t cover you.

      Then, figure out what you’d *like*, which is where those glassdoor numbers come in. I’d *like* $12/hr since my last job paid a little over $11 and the new position averages about $15/hour in this state for someone with experience. Confession time: I don’t have any experience in this particular field, and it’s a non-profit. So I’m not even getting $11/hr my new position, and I expected that, *but* I actually come out better by about $60/week because of the increase in hours, even at a lower rate of pay.

      I forced myself to do it with the mantra “Don’t ask, can’t have.” It can be hard to quantify what you think you’re worth, so I had to look at it as deciding what *my family* is worth to me, and being reasonable about the organization’s abilities.

  119. Treena Kravm*

    My boss just told me that I have an $3,000 for professional development/travel in my budget that needs to be spent before the end of the fiscal year (June 30). I’m resigning on June 29 because they can’t make me full-time because of the “budget.” Hooray for complete dysfunction that results in free trips to conferences for professional development that my organization won’t even benefit from! Woohoo!

    1. Traveler*

      Yes! I have this problem at my office, only we have this ridiculously high budget for things like office supplies and conferences, but can’t manage to pay people a competitive wage. So at least underpaid employees have nice pens and the occasional free meal?

  120. Sam*

    Hoping this is work related enough…

    Has anyone had any issues with fraternization policies within the same building, but different companies?

    I recently started dating someone in the building. Different companies, but still a small building and we share some common areas.

    1. Treena Kravm*

      I’ve never heard of anything like this. Are you worried there will be an unwritten policy, or is there something written down saying this? Are the companies truly unrelated, or do they work together in some capacity (partners on a project, client, etc.)?

      1. Sam*

        I believe both companies have policies within the company, but it’s two completely separate companies. We USED to be under the same university heading, but ours in now totally separate. We can’t even transfer phone calls to each other.

        I think people are starting to notice us leaving the building together for lunch, etc. Just not sure how people will take it.

        1. fposte*

          I’ve never heard of a policy like that. I can’t imagine why they’d have one, because the concern about intraoffice dating is that it magnifies the effects on the office. This wouldn’t.

          If you have an employee handbook, check it for the heck of it, but I really wouldn’t worry about this unless your office has been notably crazy. If it comes up, just a matter of fact “Yeah, Wakeen and I have been seeing each other” should cover it.

  121. Mockingjay*

    Went looking for the Software Development team…office is dark.

    Come to think of it, the Integrators are missing too. And the Logistics team is nowhere near the warehouse. Cubicles are eerily quiet all over. Hmmm.

    Oh, it’s March Madness on a Friday!

    1. AnotherAlison*

      Same. It’s also spring break for several of the local school districts. I think about 10% of my dept. is here.

    3. Judy*

      Was quiet around here. Went downstairs to use the ladies room. It was noisy in the conference room, they had the game playing on the screen.

      More noise around now, that game is over.

    4. Al Lo*

      Next week is spring break for the public schools here, and my office is dead this afternoon. We have a big break in our regular operations next week because of spring break, so there are only 2 of us here right now. I’ve taken the afternoon to sit on my office couch with my laptop and work that way, rather than being at my desk.

    1. Jillociraptor*

      I’m not German, and I’ve never been to Germany, but I just happened to see this article on the front page of Mental Floss: http://mentalfloss.com/article/62180/8-german-travel-tips-visiting-america

      This is kind of the opposite of what you’re asking–advice for Germans for vising the US for business–but I think it gives some insight.

      Again, no guarantees that any of this is representative! I do love these articles, though. It’s so interesting to get a glimpse at how others view your culture!

  123. infj*

    So I’m trying to make the leap from a private consulting firm to local government–same field, different angle and focus. I interviewed for a position in January, followed up in February (crickets). I emailed my two interviewers on Monday to say that I recently found out that I will be doing a session at two upcoming national conferences on a subject that is the focus of the job I interviewed for (a part of my overall job at the consulting firm). I said that if they were planning to attend either conference, I would love to have them in the audience. Crickets again.

    Yesterday my boss came back from an event. The director of the department where I interviewed gave a speech (I interviewed with assistant directors) and mentioned the role I interviewed for and said that he planned to hire someone in June. OK-so I could still get a second interview.

    Am I overstepping if I email the director to say that I heard he mentioned the position, that I had interviewed for it, and am very interested? I would feel better if I had been there but I wasn’t and I don’t want to ask my boss any questions about it because it just seems to backstabby to pump your boss for info on a job that you are applying for. I’d rather keep quiet than have someone say “who does she think she is?” but it seems like a good opening.

    1. Traveler*

      Don’t email again. Local government can be sloooowwww. The hiring process takes months, and if you keep announcing yourself you might ruin your chances.

      1. infj*

        ack. I knew it. I was hesitant to even send the email about the conferences but they are both within a 5-hour drive and one is in the same state. So it seemed reasonable that they might be there. And both sessions are exactly the focus of the job. It seemed to weird to be silent when they might be attending.

        1. Traveler*

          Your first email sounds okay – it was something specific and you hadn’t heard from them in a while. I just wouldn’t contact someone else over their heads about a conference you’ve only have tertiary contact with.

          YMMV, but the local governments I’ve known were slower/bureaucratic in their processes, and often times one of the items on the list of must haves/would likes for jobs is someone who is familiar with it. If yours is anything like the ones I’ve experienced, respecting the slow process would show that you’re in touch with that sort of thing.

  124. super anon*

    i love my boyfriend, but he’s really frustrating me lately with his job hunting tips. he hasn’t looked for a job since 2005/2006, so he’s been out of the game a while. i know he’s trying to help me, but it’s so frustrating! his tips so far have been:

    – people here are stuck up so managers won’t hire you for entry level fresh grad positions because they’ll know you’re better than them. take all of your non-retail jobs off your resume to have a better chance [ignoring the fact this will leave me with a 4 year gap]
    – the gap won’t matter because you can say you were in school [my last employer cited my year long gap as a problem during the interview even after they found out i had spent that year in Korea on exchange]
    – take all of your education off your resume because your degree isn’t a help in getting jobs, high school is fine
    – apply for things you are wildly over qualified for (like 10 hour a week delivery driver positions that you don’t even need to finish high school for) because you’ll be able to move up
    – stop writing cover letters and spending time on your job search because clearly a tailored approach isn’t working
    – just throw resumes at every employer you can find sans cover letters someone will eventually hire you
    – start cold calling employers and asking for interviews to show your initiative
    – call to follow up on applications as soon as you’ve sent them and then maybe a few times after

    soooo basically, all advice that’s contrary to everything Allison has ever written. and he thinks it’s great advice, so i have to just sit there and listen and then proceed to do nothing that he says. ahhh!

    please post your terrible job searching advice you’ve gotten here to make me feel better and entertain the masses, because if i get one more piece of terrible unsolicited job search advice from anyone i’m gonna lose my mind.

    1. Fuzzy*

      “take all of your education off your resume because your degree isn’t a help in getting jobs, high school is fine”
      The rest of this sounds like normal bad advice, but wtf? Leave off your education?

      The worst advice I’ve gotten was the “throw resumes at the universe” one, from so many people who think it’s just a numbers game.

      1. HR Generalist*

        Yeah the “make cold calls and throw resumes at everyone” is always terrible advice.
        I’m from a small town in a fairly high unemployment area so I actually understand where he is coming from with the “leave non-retail jobs off your resume” and “leave off university” tips. It sounds counter-intuitive but a lot of the lower-level managers (doing entry-level hiring here) are intimidated by the people close to their age with lots of education and experience. They do think that you will think you’re better than them, in some cases, but mostly they’re just worried that you’ll only stay for a few weeks and then you’ll find something better.

        It sounds crazy, but you might want to try handing out a few resumes to entry-level positions that leave out anything that doesn’t correspond directly with the position.

        1. super anon*

          i have my experience right now divided into key experience and other experience, and move where jobs go depending on what i’m applying to and what experience they require. i’ve had a lot of jobs due to contract work (and worked multiple jobs at once), so if i take things that don’t correspond directly i end up with fairly large gaps when in reality i’ve worked steadily for years and years. i found the “other experience” section that only lists dates and position titles helps to clear that up and get rid of gaps.

          although, i’m also mad unemployed, so i could be totally wrong in this assessment. gah.

          1. HR Generalist*

            Ah, okay that’s exactly what I would do. Other than that, I wouldn’t recommend following your partner’s advice.. lol

            Hopefully something turns up soon.

          2. Lizzie*

            I do the same thing, for a similar reason, and it was well-received during my last job search. (Or at least, nobody said, “This is garbage! It makes no sense! Have one section!”)

    2. Steve G*

      Did anyone else see/get worked up over the article on yahoo about working in college called “Manual Labor, All Night Long: the Reality of Paying for College?”

      This girl works midnight to 430AM everyday, then does teaching in the morning + class + other stuff, apparently only sleeping in chunks of a few hours here and there.

      This is part of a deal between a college and a large employer. I am outraged that a school would support a work program like this.

      What outraged me most was peoples’ comments. “I worked during school so should these lazy kids” type of comments. Yeah, I’m sure you worked in 24 hour stints. Also, with the crazy cost of college now, working during college to pay it off is making a lot smaller dent in paying for the entire bill than it used to.

      I am also outraged that no one seems upset that students are focusing on side jobs and just surviving the exhaustion instead of the actual school work! I also question programs that make it possible for you to graduate if you coast through, skip classes because you are too tired, and/or don’t have time to do all of the reading.

      I went to school to go to school, and had many jobs during it, but many semesters, all I did was study. My parents wanted me to do as many classes as I could handle at once. In business school, during many semesters, I was usually at school from 10-8 or 9, or 10 if I took a long break + had a full day of reading on the weekend. I was reading a novel per week for English + took programming courses where I had to produce code that worked as homework + had marketing projects that needed to look reaaalllyyy good + all sorts of math/economics/accounting homework/sheets that you HAD to do. Everything took many many hours. There was time for school or work, but not both.

      2. Stephanie*

        I currently work at UPS/FedEx and my company does support internal advancement, but it is not quite as straightforward as OP’s boyfriend is making it sound (and people wait for long periods to be package car drivers, as those are unionized jobs with good pay and benefits that don’t require a ton of education). I did luck up and am interviewing for something relevant next week, but I’ll concede that that was chance and I’m being considered as an external candidate. Internal, I would have had to wait a while and actively lobby (and relocate, realistically). So working your way up is a strategy, but it’s definitely the long game approach.

        So…tough to say about that article. At my facility, there are a ton of students. The hours definitely favor students. And the pay is low enough (for the loading and unloading jobs that a lot of students work), that a non-student couldn’t really live on that without working a second or third job. There are similarly weird predawn or second/third shift hours (like preload is 3 am-8 am or something). I had the luxury of not needing to work during school (I did, but mostly because I wanted fun money and it was less than 15 hours a week). But I know that’s not everyone’s situation, so I’m not quite as incensed (although the pay isn’t great, so I don’t know how much of a dent you could really make in your education costs). And if they do make it to a supervisor level, there is tuition assistance.

        I do think the students would be better served if the school placed them in jobs relating to their major or career interests.

        1. Steve G*

          I think the those weird shifts are nuts and I’d hate to send a kid to school, to find out they are working those kind of hours.

          Also, my first job outside of college paid 3X the minimum wage, it made financial sense to pay for my education on $20ish/hr, not when earning $7/hr….or I would have had to work 3X as long to pay for it….so loans definitely made sense…..and if you aren’t graduating and making good money and/or have a strong feeling that you aren’t going to be making good $ for a long time, then you need to seriously consider the financials of attending full time, or oh going at all, at the moment, IMHO.

          1. Stephanie*

            Yeah, they’re nuts, but that’s how things can get delivered during business hours. :)

            I agree that I don’t think anyone is really paying for school completely tossing boxes for $8.50/hr, unless they’re part-time at the community college (or some other low tuition situation). But if that $600/mo could cover housing or books and reduces the amount of loans, that could be good. I was poking around at work tonight and did discover that the grunts get some money toward school. Still not a ton (like a couple grand a semester), but enough to offset the cost somewhat.

            I think it is easy to fall into the idea that all college students are traditional (as in straight from high school and have decent parental support). I’m guilty of this. I think it is an option that might work for some.

      3. HeyNonnyNonny*

        I didn’t get worked up, I thought it was…interesting. The whole night shift/go to classes did seem rough, but I appreciate seeing more options for students to avoid debt. I hope more private businesses see the success of this and work out more beneficial job/internship partnerships with schools to help students make it through!

      4. Unmarked*

        I am on the opposite end of this. I worked a lot like the student in the story, not nights thankfully but I was school all morning, and work from 1-10pm M-F, then I worked another job 11-6 every Saturday and Sunday. Having a day off never happened, and my studying and homework had to be shoved in whenever I had a few free minutes, I usually got 4-5 hours of sleep a night.

        For a long time I had a real chip on my shoulder, because finding a job associated with your degree when you didn’t have time to do unpaid internships and extra classes was very difficult. Listening to kids that have school/housing paid for whine about how they have no time and how hard classes are is a huge pet peeve. Everything is relevant, and I’m sure pressure from parents and the like is difficult too, but it’s hard to see that when you’re on the other side of the fence.

      5. AnotherAlison*

        I guess this doesn’t work me up. It’s an option to take or leave. So is running up a $200k student loan bill. So is joining the military. I have a philosophy on life that is you will have to work hard sometime. You can work your butt off for 4 years and get a [paid for] education, or you can work your butt off for 40 years in an unskilled job. (There are many variations on this – eat beans and rice and launch a business, literally pay your dues as an apprentice in the union, etc., but there is just no free lunch. If you try to skate around it, hard work will find you.)

        I do think the cost of education is ridiculous, but I’m not going to get mad at the few institutions trying to offer an alternative.

      6. Not So NewReader*

        I am even more alarmed thinking about how all this exhaustion will help to create/enhance health problems later on in life. There is no win here.

    3. Steve G*

      Sorry I posted what was supposed to be an independent comment under yours.

      PS put on a muzzle on your BF. The advice on spraying out resumes is particularly bad. I am job hunting and just started a bunch of phone and in person interviews…..believe me, you won’t make it past the first 15 min of an interview if you don’t have something relevant to talk about or bring to the table. Not to mention that a lot of what some companies do is hard to understand, you do need to look up what each employer does before you apply, I think, to survive a phone screen, which limits how many jobs you can apply to

      1. super anon*

        i’m not going to “put a muzzle on him”, aside from his stunningly bad job advice, he’s very smart and helps me a lot in the other aspects of my life. i think that’s a rather insulting way to phrase it. if he ever decides to go back to working for someone else rather than running his own business, i’ll likely show him choice articles from this site that illustrate why his ideas aren’t the best and most effective way to get employed, which is way more helpful solution.

        1. fposte*

          I think that was a casual expression meant to indicate that Steve G was on your side, not that you should forcibly silence your BF.

          1. super anon*

            oh, oops;; i’ve never heard that term used in a positive manner (i’ve generally used it heard against women in not very nice ways), so i bristled at its use. sorry steve;;

            1. Steve G*

              I meant it in a casual way, not to be taken offense to. sorry! As in “hey cool it with the unsolicited advice.”

    4. Apollo Warbucks.*

      Your boyfriend is obviously well intentioned but, he’s got no clue. Alison’s books is very good if you haven’t got a copy I would highly recommend it.

      Cover letters are an absolute must, I’ve got so many good interviews I wouldn’t have been considered for based on a cv alone. Please write them for each job!

      I posted this earlier today but I’ll say it again.

      My mum told my younger sister the best way to answer the question what do you see yourself doing in 5 years was to say doing your job.

      I was speechless

    5. MrsL*

      You re not alone! I got bad advice from my husband. He said I should just walk into my potential employers office. He argued that I have to be very proactive in order to get a job. Because that is what his uncle did to land his job. Yeah, well that was 30 years ago, and things are different today! I am saving myself the embarrassment and putting my efforts into improving my resume and writing awesome cover letters instead! Which he thinks is a waste of time, because he thinks that since my last resume landed me a job and my last cover letter did, I should just reuse them both. No, I will not do that either!

      I worry about the day, he will start looking for a job!

    6. MrsL*

      You re not alone! I got bad advice from my husband. He said I should just walk into my potential employers office. He argued that I have to be very proactive in order to get a job. Because that is what his uncle did to land his job. Yeah, well that was 30 years ago, and things are different today! I am saving myself the embarrassment and putting my efforts into improving my resume and writing awesome cover letters instead! Which he thinks is a waste of time, because he thinks that since my last resume landed me a job and my last cover letter did, I should just reuse them both. No, I will not do that either!

      I worry about the day, he will start looking for a job!

    7. Cordelia Naismith*

      Yeah, wow, this is terrible advice. Don’t do any of that.

      Why do you have to listen in silence? Can’t you just say, “Sweetie, I love you and I know you’re trying to help, but please stop giving me job search advice”?

  125. PX*

    Tips for nice phrase to add to your resume that says you’re someone who gets things done? Y’know, when in a meeting someone volunteers to do X (but doesnt actually do it) or comes up with things that need to be followed up on – I’m usually the one who actually knuckles down and does it? My boss has complimented me on it more than once, so now I’m just curious how to turn that into resume fodder :)

    1. Rosa*

      I would put initiative and follow through under the skills or background sections, and be ready to provide examples at interviews

      1. Steve G*

        I don’t think “initiative” is a skill you can flat-out list on your resume.

        I think you need to give examples.

        Maybe something like
        “Favored by our four largest channel partners/customers for account questions and report requests.”?

        Or “Became the POC for all (scheduling/reporting/last-minute financial close) requests after three months due to my quicker than average turnaround time on urgent requests”

    2. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      One thing I really like to see in cover letters is something about what other people tell you you’re good at. As in “my co-workers frequently comment on how much they appreciate that I always follow through with what I say I will do”. I mean, don’t make this stuff up, but it’s a slightly more humble (and credible) way to say what you’re good at.

      1. HR Generalist*

        I like this. I have a line in my cover letter and LinkedIn profile saying that I’ve been regularly commended by coworkers/managers/clients for my professional demeanour and work ethic, because it’s true. If you can find a way to fit in into a nice sentence in a cover letter I think that’s the best. There’s nothing I hate more than seeing a resume with bullet points like:
        – Team player
        – Strong initiative
        – Great customer service skills

        no, no, no and more no….

      2. Apollo Warbucks.*

        I was thinking something similar, it’s a good idea to demonstrate that someone else recognises your skills it adds more validity to the statement.

  126. AnonAnalyst*

    Question for recruiters: if you’re trying to contact potential candidates (as in, reaching out to candidates who didn’t apply for jobs but that you think have skills for a role you’re trying to fill), is it common practice to call people at their current jobs?

    I would think no, but this has happened to me several times over the past two months, and it’s happening with different recruiters from different companies, so it’s clearly not just some overly aggressive agency. The worst part is that I am actually interested in hearing about other opportunities but this is totally awkward for me as I work in a small, open plan office so everyone can hear my side of the conversation. I’ve tried to be vague in my responses so that my coworkers and manager don’t think I’m looking for a job, but I’m starting to feel like they think something is up.

    Is this just a sign of bad recruiters, or is this more common than I think? As I said, I really am interested in hearing about other opportunities, but the outreach makes me question whether I should try to work with them or if it’s a sign of other issues.

    (I should note that these are not places I’ve applied to or that I’ve somehow networked my way into that know I’m looking; the calls are total cold calls.)

    1. Buu*

      Seems like this is the phone equivalent of random Linkedin ads! It’s pretty much unsolicited marketing, and whilst it’s not impossible they have some jobs they probably don’t know anything about you. If you want to work with a recruiter approach one yourself or use Linkedin so they actually look at your CV and understand you.

      1. BeckyDaTechie*

        ^This. “I’m sorry, you’ve reached me at a bad time. Could I take a number and discuss this further in a day or so, or perhaps by email?”

  127. Calacademic*

    Thinking about pregnancy + work. We have one kid and are feeling ready to take on the no-sleep cycle of another one. The issue is my job (I’m the mom here). I work in a lab and one of the hats I wear is a chemist’s. In an ideal world, all the necessary safety measures would be in place so that there would be no concerns for a fetus if mom works with chemicals. We don’t leave in an ideal world; safety rules which are deemed safe for adults are not considered safe exposure levels for a fetus.

    Doing chemistry is a fundamental part of my job–I cannot do any other aspects if I can’t do this one (it happens first). But I don’t want to wait 3-4 years (realistic that I would have a new responsibilities then) to have kid number 2, nor do I want to take risks with a pregnancy. Have readers here had similar problems? What solutions have you found?

    1. Apollo Warbucks.*

      Would it be possible to swap some of the work around so you don’t have to do the chemistry, but do more of the work that comes after?

      Are there any safety precautions that would make things safer for a baby?

      Can you move up the time line for promotion?

      Would you think about looking for a new Jon in a new company?

      Would working part time and job sharing be possible so you don’t have the chemistry to do?

      Could you take a longer maternity leave

      1. Calacademic*

        Currently I’m the only one doing this. We’re trying to recruit someone to help me with/without added complication of a pregnancy. I’m actually putting off getting pregnant until we find someone.

    2. just laura*

      I think they have to make accommodations — like if you worked in a factory or with other issues. I’m not sure if it’d be OSHA or ADA-type accommodations, though.

      1. Sospeso*

        My understanding – although I’m no lawyer! – is that an employer has to make “reasonable” accommodations. My guess is that an accommodation that involved an employee not completing the essential functions of her job (and it sounds like doing chemistry is an essential job function for Calacademic) wouldn’t be considered reasonable. However, that doesn’t mean your employer wouldn’t be open to alternative options or arrangements. It’s likely worth having the conversation about what that could look like.

        I think ADAAA, PDA, and FMLA would be worth looking into when you’re researching options and considering what protections the law might provide for your job and income, Calacademic. This could be a good time to do it, since you’re still in the planning stage of starting your family (very exciting, btw!).

  128. Anonymouseling*

    Dear coworker whom I hardly know,

    I really don’t want to hear about the troubles with your urethra, especially over lunch.

    MmmmKay, thanks.

    2. Lo*

      Tehehehe, do you work in my office? there’s always someone over sharing, I think. It’s ridiculous. Hope you were able to finish your lunch after that.

      1. Jessie's Girl*

        Tell me about it. My boss and another person like to share their whole lives with people. This “other person” has discussed serious medical issues w/ his self and his family since the beginning and I’ve never wanted to hear it.
        It’s very unprofessional, in my opinion, and make me uncomfortable but my boss laps it up. I’m not excited about working more closely with this person in the future (not to mention he’s completely unqualified for what he wants to be doing).

    3. Sospeso*

      I think I read a comment on AAM a few weeks ago suggesting that companies provide phone booths for employees to make calls in private. Since reading that, I have started noticing sooo many uncomfortable conversation topics while walking around my workplace! Bring back the phone booths!

  129. Sharm*

    Do any of you have suggestions on how to work with difficult vendors? I find myself in a situation where half the vendors I work with have horrible customer service skills. They can be combative and aggressive, and many times don’t even understand what I’m saying. Since what they offer us isn’t impressing me, their attitudes are that much more grating.

    As some examples, the first vendor has nickel and dimed us throughout our implementation process. We’ve had to pay extra for basic support, have had multiple people on their side introduce themselves and disappear right after, and it was only until we were ten months into our contract that someone reached out to us as our account manager. However, instead of listening to any of our needs or even understanding our business, their primary concern is our contract renewal. They’ve contacted us two months before we actually need to renew, and are now saying if we don’t renew in ten days, a discount we were given will expire. There was no mention of this discount before. I came on board after we went into contract so I didn’t know there was an expiration of the discount. And in general, the account manager and reps are all very sales-y, asking me to give contact info of other divisions in my org they can pitch to. If it wasn’t such bad timing, I would recommended finding another vendor, but we are now stuck with them for another year. We can’t even use half the elements of the tool, and there are others out there that do the core functionality so much better.

    Another vendor is similarly difficult to work with; the account rep constantly talks over me, condescends to me, but never actually listens to any of my questions or requests. She became very agitated on a call with me yesterday, even though she hadn’t delivered a single report I’d asked for the week before. In fact, I had specifically outlined the agenda for our call, which she was totally on board with last week, but then when we actually had the call, she got all mad and said that she was great at her job and that (basically) we didn’t know what the hell we were talking about. Well, I need to report back to management, and I need more than just a statement from the vendor things are going well. She’d given no context, no benchmarks, no performance, nothing! And acted like I was a crazy person for asking for them.

    What do I do? I’ve never had issues with vendors before. But I legitimately can’t stand working with these people. I want new account managers for both vendors. I haven’t spoken to my manager about that specifically, but she knows I’m not super happy with them. We’ve just started some campaigns with the second vendor, so it’s too soon to say if they’re performing well, but it hasn’t been gangbusters. The first vendor is for a tool that I use every day, so it’s a bit of a different situation. This is my bias, but they’re both tech companies, and I think they’re so enamored with all the fancy technology they can sell us on, they’ve forgotten how to act like humans and actually serve their clients. I just can’t believe how snippy both of them have been with me. I’M the client! You can’t get pissed at me when I ask a question!

    And lest you think that the common denominator is me and that I’m the problem, I promise that’s not the case. I would likely be considered a pushover; I really hate confrontation. But I have always been rated highly for my relationship-building and collaboration skills. And I have always had good relationships with vendors! This has really thrown me for a loop.

    1. Colette*

      Is what you’re requesting in the contract? Have you been clear and consistent about what you need from them?

      I wonder whether you’re not being assertive enough about what you need from them, or if you’re asking for things that are outside the scope of the project.

      1. Sharm*

        No, these things are all well within scope. And again, I’ll ask for the exact reports I need, outlined line by line, with a due date. What bugs me is they say everything’s fine, and then not deliver.

        It’s early yet, so I probably need to give it time. But I don’t like that this has started off on the wrong foot.

        1. Mephyle*

          When the other party doesn’t come through with the terms of the contract, there has to be some downside for them to care and motivate them to change their behaviour. All I can think of is writing penalties/consequences of non-compliance into contracts going forward – it won’t help with existing ones.

  130. Ask a Manager* Post author

    All right, y’all, here’s something I need advice on.

    How much work is too much work when you’re a freelancer/consultant/work for yourself? About 18 months ago, I realized that I’d taken on too many clients and was constantly working and stressed out and so I scaled back a little bit. I now feel like my workload is about at the right level — I’m making money I’m happy with, but I also have enough breathing room and free time.

    That said, as someone who works for myself, I’m always aware that if I lose a client, I could be looking at a sudden and sharp income drop. I’ve arranged things so that the loss of any one client would be perfectly fine — not welcome, certainly, but not hugely problematic either. However, I have no idea what the future holds and it’s possible that in a few years it could look less rosy than it does right now. Having multiple long-term clients provides some security against that feeling.

    So what I’m struggling with is this: I periodically get approached by potential new long-term clients. I don’t really want to add to my workload right now … but I do like the insurance of adding to my stable of long-term security providers, and I worry that if I turn those opportunities down, I may wish in a couple of years that I’d taken them.

    Working for yourself, how do you balance those competing interests? Is there some set of principles people have figured out or a way to think about it that has brought you comfort and peace of mind?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Also, factor in that I really like money, and I really like free time. And I tend to resist blind optimism about the future, lest I end up being wrong.

    2. Rosa*

      Interesting question. Is there any way you can tell them something like, I am unavailable at this time, but if you give me X # of months (say when an existing contract will expire) I would be delighted to assist you. The worst that could happen is they say, we cant this is urgent/needed immediately etc.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Well, none of my contracts really expire. It’s just ongoing work, indefinitely, with the assumption that it’s long-term. So it’s entirely possible that I could have the same group of clients that I have today four years from now, or that I could be minus one or two of them.

        1. Katie the Fed*

          So maybe you need to write into new contracts that you can review and renew every year? So you’re not saddling yourself with too much down the line?

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Well, I’m not sure it would really address the problem. I could pull out from any of them at any time if I wanted to. I’m more just wondering about how to decide whether to keep taking on additional work, and when to stop.

    3. Colette*

      If you take on more clients and end up busier now than you want to be, you’re trading something you have now (time) for something you might need in the future (more work).

      Personally, I’d turn the new offers down – you like your time/money balance now, and taking on more now doesn’t actually guarantee you’ll still have work in three years. (I mean, you probably will, but you can’t know for sure.)

      The only scenario in which I’d suggest you should take on more work is if you can get rid of one-time projects to take on another long-term project – you get more security without losing time.

    4. Treena Kravm*

      I think that if you’re primarily worried about business dropping off permanently (as in, more than a year of less-than-ideal income) no amount of extra work now will help assuage that fear. It’s always possible that something will happen all of a sudden and you can’t do what you’re doing now. As long as you have the 6-12 months of income in an emergency fund, then I think you’ve done enough.

      Is there a dollar amount that you could have in the bank that would actually make you feel totally comfortable turning down work and making free time the priority? Maybe take on one extra client (5-10 hours/week) and dedicate that income to your emergency fund until you reach the magic number (if it even exists).

      1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

        That’s kind of what I was thinking. Figure out how much extra money you’d need for the period of time between a client dropping the contract and finding a new one, double it, and then free up some of your time for as long as that nest egg remains in tact.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Yes, this is a nest egg question. The size of the nest egg dictates how much workload is enough.
          As a double check use the numbers from your biggest (best paying) revenue source. If you lost your top client or your top two clients, how long would it take you to replace that income? I love using worst case scenario because once I figure out what I will do in worst case scenario anything smaller is much easier to figure out.

          And this does not include exceptions for immediate goals. Some people want a house or they want to pay off a loved one’s medical bills, etc. If you have a goal like that, you may want to push through until you meet that goal. This varies from person to person, of course. So if you have immediate goals that you are working on that is an additional factor in this equation.

          My last thought, is that all of this assumes you have a long term financial plan. Meaning retirement, long-term savings and emergency funds are all in place.

    5. AnotherFed*

      Disclaimer: I’ve never freelanced. However, I do work in a very specialized support field that never has enough people to meet the demand, and my work is not directly paid for by the congressional budget, so we’re always balancing the picture of which of our government ‘customers’ are likely to continue to be funded and need our support and which are unlikely to be long term work.

      The way we handle it is to set a cap on the average number of hours we are willing to have people work, and then prioritize work up until we run out of hours. Prioritization is based on how sane/easy to work with the sponsor is and how risky the long term funding from that sponsor is. If they’re stringing us along on short term work, or are clearly moving in a direction where they won’t need us in a year or two, that’s not work worth taking. If they seem to be a promising sponsor long term, it’s probably worth weathering a short term financial gap to gain that long term work.

      The biggest pitfall for me personally is saying no when I should and sticking to that limit on how much time to work, but it’s more because I’m a sucker for interesting projects than that I’m afraid of being poor in a year – plan what you can on the $ front, including back up plans for likely potential work if you need it, but once you’ve got the plan don’t keep worrying at it.

    6. Ask a Manager* Post author

      This is all helpful — thank you!

      It’s nudging me to realize that I’m letting fear play a bigger role here than I probably should. Ah, emotional issues about money, and the mind games they play with us…

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Emotional issues about money is such a huge topic. Very few people have no emotions about money. I like that we talk about money here, because there is no point to working hard if you are not moving toward your goals. Having the money to get there takes forethought and planning.

    7. hapax legomenon*

      Have you considered hiring one or more persons to help you with the biz? It’s a big, scary step, I know, but if you can partition the work into “stuff you don’t enjoy” (aka “crap”) and “stuff you love” (aka “fun”) and figure out how much time you’re spending on each – would it be worthwhile to hire someone to do the crap?

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        I pretty much like all of it, luckily. I’m just struggling with how to decide what the right cut-off point is for taking on more. (Also, there’s very little crap, fortunately! Otherwise, yes.)

  131. Traveler*

    Silly question : Do you indent paragraphs in your cover letter or leave them left aligned? I’ve seen it both ways and I’m curious which is the most common.

      1. Traveler*

        I’ve always done this, but did not realize it was “business correct”. Good to know. Is there a “business correct” salutation?

        1. HR Generalist*

          “To whom it may concern” is formal but generally works. I like to put “Dear Mr./Mrs. _____” if I know the hiring manager’s name.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Am giggling. I showed my boss. Indenting paragraphs is five more key strokes. Be anal about your key strokes, eliminate unnecessary ones.

  132. Jessen*

    More of a rant than anything:

    I’m filling out job applications for low-level work (I mean like stocking shelves type work). Everything has an online form, and most of them say you MUST list information for every job you’ve worked in the last 10 years or so.

    For someone like me where college was in the last 10 years, and you worked a different summer job every summer…that’s a lot of jobs. I don’t remember the manager’s full name for the summer job I did 8 years ago! I also don’t have the amount I was paid for that one summer internship calculated as per hour – I don’t have either my stipend amount nor exactly how much I made. But of course since I have to apply online, I have to put something in the box.

    1. Traveler*

      Those forms are terrible. I think the first test for employment is whether or not you have the patience and endurance to get through them.

    2. Steve G*

      These apps suck! I filled out one recently that had a “describe any gaps in your resume” field. Um, there is a gap because I was unemployed. What else am I supposed to write? Or “did crappy, low level work you wouldn’t care about.” It’s not that I don’t know what to say in this fields, the fields are just dumb!

    3. YandO*

      I would day fill out info for the last two jobs (or only relevant ones) and call it a day. They don’t need all that information.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Make a master list and keep it handy. Then that way you do not have to reconstruct each and every time.

      1. Jessen*

        The problem is that some of the information is just no longer in my files. The stipend and number of hours I worked for my undergrad internship 9 years ago is just gone. So is the last name of the manager I officially reported to (but never saw) at walmart 7 years ago. I don’t have the information and I don’t have any way to get it.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Ugh. Well, make your list with what you have. It will only be a few more years and maybe you can drop these two jobs off your resume and that will fix it permanently. Some of my stuff is gone also. The list does keep me from banging my head against the wall when I am trying to write a resume or fill out a form.

  133. Temp-o*

    Why do some companies choose to use contractors for years at a time rather than bring them on as employees?

    1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      They might be limiting risk somehow – the risk of an eventual unemployment claim if their funding changes, liability risks for those employees actions, etc. Or they might just feel like it’s a better set-up to pay for deliverable than to deal with employing/supervising people.

    3. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      They might be limiting risk somehow – the risk of an eventual unemployment claim if their funding changes, liability risks for those employees actions, etc. Or they might just feel like it’s a better set-up to pay for deliverables than to deal with employing/supervising people.

      1. Traveler*

        Yes. It’s often easier to convince higher ups to take on contractors that will be seen as “disposable” rather than employees who they see as a larger investment of time/money/etc. I hope though, when they do this, they weigh factors like how this will make their 20+ year “contractors” feel.

    5. Rosa*

      I dont get it either and its happening at my job, in my department, and I think its terribly unfair to my coworker. He is a good worker and we are lucky to have him stay as long as he has without being an employee. My boss keeps giving him more and more things (he is even expected to go on call like the rest of us) and he is still just a temp. In my opinion, he should move on with his career.

    6. Julie*

      Because they are cheaper. My husband works for a large company now but he was a contractor for 5 years. The company regularly gains and loses intellectual property so in the “bad” years they need to have lower numbers of employees and they cut the budget by firing employees and picking up more contractors so they don’t have to pay benefits. It is built into their company design, though it wasn’t originally. In the recession they started hiring contractors to do projects when they couldn’t afford to hire workers and some people got extensions and then more. They soon realized people were desperate and would stay “on the hook” virtually forever. When they do get approval to hire, they do choose from the contractor pool or their intern pool.

      My husband was a contractor for 5 years before getting an offer and only 1 other person was brought on during that time. Everyone else on his 30 person team (that he managed as a contractor) is still a contractor. I’m not thrilled with the job security but he survived this year’s layoff so we should be set till the next patent expiration.

    7. AnotherFed*

      Lots of reasons. Sometimes, there isn’t enough work to justify having a full time person in that role all the time, or the workload varies so significantly that you would rather staff to the minimum level with employees and use contractors or temps for the rest, or simply that the company isn’t confident that they will continue to need that level of support for long enough to be worth hiring someone and risking laying them off a little while later. Sometimes the contractors have expertise that’s important to the company, but it isn’t something they are interested in developing or sustaining themselves, like specialized training or analysis. Other times, the contractor would rather stay a contractor and maintain that independence.

  134. anon good worker*

    I like my job. Like my boss and her boss.
    I get things done. Many colleagues with similar duties do not — or at least not nearly as conscientiously or efficiently. So what has been happening increasingly is that more and more gets put on me; boss knows I’ll get the job done. Not complaining. So far so good, and I’m not burning out by any means. Just curious — anyone else out there face this too? And for managers: Do you find yourself loading a lot on the one or two people you know will get it done, instead of spreading the workload out more evenly?

    1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      Yep! There are upsides and downsides. Sometimes really great employees love the challenge of having new and different tasks, and it’s motivating them to get the opportunity to work on different stuff. Sometimes, like you say, they end up feeling resentful that they accomplish more for the same money. In a lot of cases, the supervisor needs to be setting higher standards for the employees who don’t get things done and can’t be trusted with new projects, but sometimes the reality is that those employees are fine, you’re just awesome – and it doesn’t make sense to replace them.

      I would absolutely want to know if one of my superstars was feeling this way. Superstars don’t want to be the only superstar on the team – they want to be surrounded by people who are also awesome – and I don’t want to lose them over resentment.

      In most cases, the practical solution is to give the superstar a raise or promotion – it’s often not practical to just give the superstar less work than they are capable do doing, in turn give more work to people who can’t handle it. However, superstar might have to stay where they are for a while and do some learning/growing with the extra responsibility before that raise or promotion will actually happen.

      If it helps, you’d be the last person I’d lay off, and the first one I’d try to keep happy when tough decisions come up.

    2. AnotherFed*

      Yep, but you’re the first person I go to when I have something weird or interesting to work on, because I know you’ll be able to handle and probably will even enjoy the challenge.

      Sometimes you really need people who are happy to keep doing Process X at a consistent but mediocre speed and quality, especially if the output is acceptable. If you have 100 entry level folks doing Process X, you may only have leadership/growth opportunities for a quarter or less of them, so you need people who will continue to be happily competent but not exceptional to keep being part of that 100, while the ones who are clearly head and shoulders above are the ones you want to grow into troubleshooters, technical experts, future leaders/managers, etc.

      1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

        That is a good point – so true in my work, at least that you NEED people who are content to just do the same thing at an acceptable level of quality. If everybody is poised to move up, you’ve got to continually replace, train, etc. for those roles.

    4. BeckyDaTechie*

      I had to do this more than once, but I also explained to the employees that I knew I was dumping stuff on them they shouldn’t have to handle and apologized for it. I also made sure to thank them for doing it willingly and complimented something they’d done as part of it that was handled exceptionally well when I noticed it. It sucks when you have to make up for a weak link in a team, but it sucks worse when no one shows any appreciation for that extra work. I couldn’t do much about the weak links, but at least as the manager I could express some gratitude for the help.

  135. HR Generalist*

    I’m feeling frustrated at work.

    I’ve been actively looking for a little while now. My role, although a good job, is underpaid and I feel I’m not being used to my full potential (I have significant education and a few unique skills but I feel like a glorified admin assistant). I had resigned myself to having to eventually leave my organization as in my area there is only one position above me and, although it’s my dream job, it won’t be vacated for 2 years (retirement) and it’s a significant step, so no guarantee I would be successful in obtaining it. It was a hard decision to make because I really do love my organization but I also have student loans to pay off and financial obligations.
    A position came up in our organization that is a step between mine and my manager’s role. It is the only role of its kind in our organization. It would be a two-hour commute but do-able since I have friends I could stay with during the week in that area. My regional manager, who works in this new area, called my manager and asked if I would be interested. She laid it out to me that the succession planning would be that I would (hopefully) get this role and then when hers came up in two years I would basically have no competition for it. I told her I was more than willing to pay my dues for two years if it meant I was practically guaranteed my dream job, so she encouraged me to apply.
    Here’s the tough part- it’s designated bilingual. I took second language classes in high school but it’s been awhile and I have no outlet to practice where I live now. The hiring manager called me and asked about my second language proficiency – I explained directly that I was not bilingual and would not meet the profile for the position (3 and 2 – reading and writing). She asked if I would be interested in taking the assessment anyway and I said yes, assuming that if I scored 1 and 1 I would be considered for a second language training plan in the role.
    I took the assessment and received my results this morning. I scored a 3 and 1 (the test is out of 4 and I could’ve scored a 0). I was actually excited about that, because it means I have a language profile now. We chatted for a bit and then she said, “Unfortunately we can’t continue to consider you for the position because you did not reach the language profile.” I was devastated because I was actually excited about my results – I wish I had known going into it that if I didn’t meet the profile I wouldn’t be considered because at least I wouldn’t have been shocked about being ruled out. I guess I thought they would make an exception for me because I came highly recommended by my chain but apparently there’s no flexibility in the process. I feel like I’m back at square one and frustrated with my prospects again, especially since it’s unlikely this role will come up again any time soon and now there’s a risk that this person will want my manager’s role when she retires. I don’t know how to get excited about work anymore or optimistic for the future. I live in a pretty high unemployment area but I’m stuck here for various reasons. I even started researching law school today (something I’ve always wanted to do) but that’s still not feasible. Any suggestions for picking myself up and dusting myself off?

    1. HR Generalist*

      I should also mention that due to those financial obligations mentioned above I’ve just taken on a new part-time job to ease some of the stress. Unfortunately it means less down-time/family time. It actually pays almost 10% more than my day job but it’s only a few hours a week so it’s nothing substantial.

    2. Steve G*

      Wow, you were turned down for not speaking a language other than English in the US of A?!?! That is sad. I would think that your employer would owe you a bit more than that.

      Maybe time to look for another job?

      I also saw a bit of a red flag in the “I have friends who I can stay with there” part, unless you live with your parents and don’t have to pay rent. I’d never get into a paying-rent-in-two-places unless the job/pay was way more than I could ever make.

      1. Elkay*

        I’m confused, the job was bi-lingual, I agree the turn down was crappy but why are you surprised she was turned down for not speaking another language when the job was bi-lingual?

        1. Steve G*

          Because English is the primary language of all areas of the USA, and because her HR dept doesn’t seem willing to work with her on easing the language requirement in order to retain a good employee. Can’t they find someone else who speaks (presumably) Spanish ( I can’t think of any other language where you can live and work in the US without knowing English) to do the translating part? Spanish is certainly a common enough language in the US…conversely, doesn’t at least one of the Spanish speaking workers know English enough to fill the translating role, and why won’t HR look at that option?

          1. fposte*

            Well, HR Generalist is in Canada, so it’s probably French, which is one of the two official languages of Canada.

            However, even in the US there are plenty of areas where English isn’t the primary language, and there are plenty of bilingual and even multilingual people in the US. So it would quite likely be easier to have the employee with the skills that you need for the job in the job than to make up for an employee deficit by taking another staffer away from her work to do translation.

            1. Lizzie*

              Exactly. We have a couple of mandatory bilingual positions where I work, and when one of those workers went on medical leave, it was a giant PITA. (The temp agency was like, “Why do you need someone Spanish bilingual if you have other people on staff who speak it fluently?” Um, because those people have other jobs.) Actually, I think we should have more mandatory bilingual positions, although that would probably result in my not having a job anymore…

      2. HR Generalist*

        This raise would be a 35% pay increase – enough to afford an apartment if I wanted to but I’d be happier to just throw some money at my friend to let me crash on her couch during the week. Unfortunately I’m a little north of USA ;) and the region dictates the languages to be declared. We actually have an Official Language department that controls a lot of what we do. I was just upset because I thought since I had been so highly recommended that an exception would be made.

        Nothing is really lost, as I was in this same spot (before I knew this role existed) less than a month ago, I guess I’m just disappointed because I had got my hopes up. I’m looking but who knows how long it will take to find something new- I shudder thinking I might be spending two more years at my current pay rate…. *sigh*

        1. Colette*

          Yeah, I can’t tell you how many jobs I haven’t applied for based on language – as soon as I see “bilingual” I move on. It’s discouraging.

          1. HR Generalist*

            Well we have different language profiles – some are bilingual mandatory, some non-mandatory, and then unilingual positions. Exceptions have been made in the past but I guess not in this case. And, to be fair, exceptions were made prior to the revamp of the policy in the last year. I guess I feel a little misled because my manager, the regional manager, and the hiring manager all were aware that I am not bilingual and I straight-up told them “I will not meet the language profile” but I was still told to apply and go through the motions. I knew it felt too good to be true but I think I got my hopes up prematurely thinking “this might actually happen!” only to find out it was basically destined for failure from the beginning.

            I had a conversation with a coworker in another region earlier this week and I said “They’re making me take the test anything, I think if I score 1 and 1 then I can be deemed bilingual and considered otherwise I don’t know why they’d make me do it with what they know.”

  136. Small Creatures Such As We*

    Help! I suspect my employer will announce its acquisition at a company-wide meeting next week. I’d greatly appreciate advise from anyone who’s gone through this before. What questions do I need to be asking if they announce an acquisition? Alternatively, exactly how screwed am I?

    I really LOVE my job’s unofficial perks: jeans and t-shirts unless we’re out at a client-meeting; work from home from 1-3 days per week; office location with a relatively short commute because of our flexible start/end-time (same commute would be much worse if I didn’t start work so early); can flex my schedule for dentist appointments/etc; I and my boss do not sit in internal meeting all day, every day. My previous job (at a large company) was the OPPOSITE of all of this (at my new job, I have 3 more vacation days PLUS 8 sick days per year).

    I’m scared to death that any company large enough to acquire us will be like my previous employer. How can I get a sense of whether that will happen? Are there any upsides to being acquired?

    1. Rosa*

      Just went through a merger the last 2 years. Expect the worst and start looking for a new job at the first sign of prolonged unrest. Middle and upper management will dictate the culture, if they can not get along, no one in their respective departments will. Nothing good came out of the merger here, so I have nothing to say to encourage you to stay. Maybe someone else has a different experience.

      1. Steve G*

        I went through this from Oct-Dec. The people on the acquiring side benefited, many got promotions out of it while people from my side got demoted. It took 2 months for them to figure out who was staying/going, which was a real pain.

        This was worst case scenario though, not sure if it can be a positive thing.

    2. Rebecca*

      My only experience with an acquisition (the company I worked for was gobbled up by a larger company) has been anything but positive. I’ve lost benefits, no more raises, higher insurance costs, and the company culture is worse than the one I escaped to go to my previous company in the first place. I’m still looking for a new position, 4 years in. When the WARN notices were handed out, I asked for one, but was told no.

      All I can say is start looking. Now. And if you can get benefits, retraining, or any of that, go for it.

    3. AnotherFed*

      The only experience I have related to this is with a start-up/very small company getting bought out. Benefits (at least health care) got better with the major corporation, work hours got much, much better (you could actually take a vacation day!), you didn’t have to worry about the company having enough money to make payroll, tech support quality got more even (there was more than 1 guy who did it, but we lost the admin privileges to fix some things ourselves) and since titles really hadn’t meant a lot to us before the acquisition, it didn’t matter much how they got changed afterward. On the flexibility and culture, unless we were physically going to be in the big corporate office, things didn’t really change and no one came to take away our Nerf guns. They did require us to keep semi-regular hours aligned with the timezone we were in (so the guy who usually worked from 3PM-1AM wasn’t happy) and we had to do the corporate trainings, but that was the worst of it.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Rather than getting nervous, take action. Get your resume out there, start looking around and talking with people.
      You can always say no to a job offer. But you cannot conjure up a job offer out of thin air if you really need a new job.

      I feel kind of defeated in asking questions about the acquistion. They will tell you whatever. My motto is it takes about a year or so for the acquiring company’s true colors to show. Assume the worse and have a plan BUT hope for the best.

  137. Blue_eyes*

    What do *you* mean when you use the word “underemployment”? I realized recently that people (here and else where) seem to mean two different things with that word. I use underemployment to mean that I don’t have as much work as I would like (part time vs. full time). But I’ve seen some people use it to mean that they are employed below their highest level of education (someone with a degree working retail, for example). Just curious if one meaning is more common than the other.

    1. HR Generalist*

      I know it as the second meaning – someone with high education or experience working in position that is “below them”

    2. Julie*

      I think it’s both. I’ve been stuck in both situations and since in both cases I was looking for a full-time job to match my qualifications and not something entry-level/unskilled that didn’t support me financially.

    3. Treena Kravm*

      I think “underemployed” is appropriate if you’re PT and want to be FT, aren’t making enough money to afford the basics, and if someone is employed below their education (only if they have experience, not just a fresh grad with 1 internship who wants a job in their field but isn’t doing anything to change that).

    4. Traveler*

      Both – any time you’re not employed to your fullest abilities and earning potential.

  138. Camellia*

    Ooh, I have waited for this all week. My review happened recently and it made me think about this:

    I need a word to describe what I am/what I do/my function at work.

    I am a, let’s say, Design Concept Engineer and I am in the best job of my life. My greatest strength is to take something, anything, whether I originally know anything about it or not, and wrestle it down to something concrete that can get done/be done (trying to be non-job-specific here). My current manager utilizes this strength all the time, to the extent that I don’t usually even get assigned the normal tasks that the other Design Concept Engineers are assigned.

    Instead my manager might say:

    “Here is a project that is three-quarters done and about which you know nothing. So-and-so is out. Finish the project.”

    “This just came in. Find some resources (people) to get it done. And then make sure it gets done.”

    “I’m double-booked. Please go to this meeting and find out if we have any part of Meeting Purpose.”

    “I want you to be point of contact for all Teapot Handle questions for all teams.”

    So how do I describe this? I tend to think of myself as the “wild card”, one that can substitute for any other card, but that term can carry some negative connotation. I’m not really a trouble-shooter either, or not just a trouble-shooter anyway.

    What term or phrase could I use?

    1. Nanc*

      When I was in academia the Provost called me a Utility Ball Player–I could cover any position well enough at the last minute so the game could keep going. I wasn’t the smartest or the fastest, but I was always willing to learn the new position and make it work until they could hire/assign someone else (or because they had to fire whomever they had hired/assigned!).

    2. Mike C.*

      So I’m seeing a couple of things here:

      1. Project Management/Leadership Roles
      2. Communications
      3. Subject Matter Expertise

      So you can do the work, you can lead others in doing the work (both starting new groups and stepping into existing ones), and you can represent your team/leadership as an SME.

      Does that help?

    3. fposte*

      It might make a difference who you’re describing it to, as well.

      However, there’s elements like that in my job, and I talk about being the mortar–you apply me to situations to hold them together and make them into a solid and usable structure.

    4. Glorified Plumber*

      A “closer”?? Lead “gopher”? Go for this, go for that?

      I think the role you described is REALLY important in any kind of large project. I’ve been trying to think of a name for 10 minutes, and coming up with nothing. I really think that any largish set of projects REALLY benefits from someone with your described skill set.

      The role you described, fits my life and one other gals life out here too a tee! Ostensibly we’re the lead process engineer and just an ordinary structural engineer, but inevitably all “ill defined projects” and “crap I am double booked, can you run this meeting?” or “Go figure out what client X wants, you have the relationship with them!” gets punted to she or I. We have a team of 60 people, and PM’s are ALWAYS punting specific meetings and half finished projects to myself and this other gal.

      “Punt returner”, there, that is what you could call yourself… maybe?

      I actually find it EXCEEDINGLY frustrating. This gal and I don’t get paid anywhere near what PM’s get paid… and on paper 0% of our job is to deal with this stuff. But at least 50% of our day consists of closing things out or running meetings or figuring out scope that the PM team or other leads could not do.

      Super interesting! Out of curiosity, have you been able to secure higher pay or anything of that nature for doing this role? Or was it simply a void and need and you decided to fill it?? Do you ENJOY doing it?

  139. Elkay*

    I had an interesting experience this week. I went to a meeting of my company’s women’s network, it was a very general meeting, bit of intro at the beginning but then they opened the floor for discussion and the majority of comments were “I’ve heard discrimination towards women happens but I’ve never experienced it”. I count myself lucky that I’m of an age where women in the workplace is totally normal and I went to the local school and never had the concept of boy/girl subjects. It just felt like we were standing in a room looking for something to complain about. I guess I don’t really understand the concept of a women’s network.

    2. Anonsie*

      Well, the purpose isn’t to stand around and complain, but opening up the floor to discussing issues isn’t exactly fishing for complaints just for complaints’ sake.

    3. AnotherAlison*

      Hmmm. Interesting. Women comprise <10% of my field at my level. I do think there tends to be more equality at lower levels, and I mean both today and 15 years ago when I entered the workforce. I don't see overt discrimination, like Jane is clearly more qualified than Fred, but Fred gets the position because he is a man. What I see more of is little slights by specific individuals. For example, a salesperson wanted to take a project manager coworker rather than me to meet with a particular client. I was project manager on that client's last project (different client office) and got a good score on our client survey. Now, there can be 1,000 different reasons on why I wasn't asked, but since I know this particular salesperson, I cannot help but wonder if my gender played a role. My coworker did ask the salesperson why he didn't ask me, and the salesperson said he needed someone with experience in X. Interestingly enough, my coworker and I worked on the same project for X years ago and have very similar experience in X. The salesperson wouldn't know if I did or did not have that experience. So, while I'm overall very happy with my career, I do try to pay attention to these things to make sure that I am treated fairly and will speak up if I'm not. I also try to make sure that my female coworkers who are less outspoken than I am get the recognition and assignment they deserve. We don't have a formal network, but I think it is important, because if you don't speak up in my world, your male coworkers assume you think like their wives, moms, or girlfriends. . .if the women close to them are family-focused stay at home moms, your male coworkers might assume you don't want to travel or need a flexible schedule, or less demanding work when you don't.

      1. AnotherFed*

        Are you in a STEM field? Women are certainly underrepresented when compared to the general population in STEM fields, but the percentage of women in STEM degree programs is also much smaller compared to the general population. Everywhere I’ve worked, the percentage of senior people who are female has actually been larger than the percentage of females in STEM degrees. So sure, there are far fewer women than men getting hired and promoted, but there are just plain way fewer women than men to hire based on the required degrees. Does that mean the company is biased, or that it accurately represents the population it draws from (and therefore the comparison to the general population is misleading)?

        1. AnotherAlison*

          Yes, I am. I fully understand why our numbers of women are what they are. I don’t consider that discrimination is keeping some 40% of women out of the ranks, but the women who are there need to be conscientious about ensuring they have equal footing with the men in the same roles.

        2. Anonsie*

          The pipeline argument has been defunct for a long time in some specialties and is quickly moving there for most others– women are not a wee minority of science and engineering grads and they haven’t been for a while yet.

          1. AnotherFed*

            They aren’t as badly represented, true, but it definitely does not represent the general population yet. It also varies widely by major within STEM. In biology, women actually outnumber men in a 60/40 split, but in physics, only 20% are female. Unfortunately, over the last 10 years, the overall percentage of women in STEM majors has actually dropped a little. The American Physcial Society has some interesting statistics on this: http://www.aps.org/programs/education/statistics/womenmajors.cfm

    4. fposte*

      I also think that people sometimes mean they haven’t encountered overt prejudice against women/whatever in the field–nobody’s made stupid remarks to them, basically–and they’re not thinking of the kind of figures Colette mentions as being indicative of discrimination.

      I think the death of stupid remarks is a great thing to celebrate in its own right, but I’m going for the representation at all levels of employment too.

    5. Glorified Plumber*

      Full disclosure, dude here. But, I have always found the concern about women in the engineering workplace, discrimination and all, to be FASCINATING. My experience from the other side I think has been very atypical.

      I am a chem E, and 40% of my class was female. Of the top 10 students, 6 were female. I look back and I am always boggled by the “there was one female in my class of 50” statements… as I just never experienced it!

      At my first company, small defense contractor, the CEO was a rocking female rockstar. The lead mechanical engineer, was a Princeton female graduate who ruled! The head PM/BD/Project manager was female as well! Good lord, out of 10 people, there were 5 wonderful ladies!

      At my current company (a 25,000 + engineering firm), our CEO is female. The head of our 1,000 person business unit until recently was female (she retired after a 25 year career here).

      My FIRST lead in oil and gas was female. My current boss (8 years later, chemical engineer with 15 years experience), is female. My FORMER boss before her, is female. My bosses current boss and her boss are both female… good lord. My best junior engineer learning the ropes right now, is female… 3 of our last 4 interns… female. Our rockstar junior structural engineer who leads projects like a 20 year veteran, female.

      The client project engineers and system owners are probably 40/60 female/male on the engineering side, mostly mechanical and process engineers.

      When I think back to my first years at this engineering firm, the client was a large refinery in the PNW. A substantial portion of their junior engineering staff was female. Subsequently, many of them have moved into superintendent positions.

      Anyways, I am POSITIVE that rampant discrimination exists elsewhere, and I would imagine that electrical/computer engineer/computer science probably sees a lot more than say chemical and mechanical. But, I swear, everywhere on the west coast I have worked, I have NOT seen anything but men and women knocking it out of the park with equal gusto.

      I definitely do not know what individuals are paid HERE. BUT, in my previous office, some senior PM dumped a spreadsheet with everyone’s salary, and ALL of the midlevel female chemical engineers were paid a dollar or two more an hour than the equivalent male folk.

      Anyways, my experience anecdotal… but has been nothing be egalitarian.

      I HAVE seen some female folk have to deal with older male creepers though. Like, dirty old pipers creeping on them… and that is not cool. But, it’s been rare, AND, when it has been witnessed publicly, it got called out as unacceptable… the old dude embarassed… and it nary happened again. Interesting, the engineer to piper relationship is very much the “engineer” in charge too here, so, it was very much “stay in your lane creepy old piper” versus someone in a position of power trying to creep on younger female employees.

      Aaaaanyways, sorry for the ramble.

      1. AnotherAlison*

        This is interesting. Most of my work has been in power, for companies in the ENR top 10, and I have never seen those kinds of ratios. Maybe I need to move to O&G or the west coast. I go to client meetings where there are twenty people in the room, and maybe 1 other female. In my graduating ME class, 1 other female.

        Now, my manager is female and the manager of our ME dept is female, so I think overall it’s a fairly female -friendly environment, but nowhere near 40 percent female.

        One thing I read recently is that people perceive a room to be 50/50 female/male when it is really 30/70. I’m not saying you miscounted, just relaying some research. : )

      2. PX*

        Can only say that you’ve been lucky (and am also very curious about where you’ve worked!). I’m ~mechanical engineer in O&G and am usually the only woman in a room full of men, and in my immediate department we’re usually outnumbered 10:1 (and this has been the same at all the sites I’ve been to/visited). Only 1 woman in a leadership position out of about 10 department heads.

        Going back to the original comment from Elkay – I would be very hesitant to say you’ve never felt it. Sure, in my workplace, obvious sexist/harassing comments dont happen, but there are still subtle ways discrimination happens (see maternity leave policies, comments about whether or not women are suited for certain roles due to being pregnant etc.)

  140. Jessica*

    I work in Development/Fundraising in higher education in the States. As you probably know, many higher ed institutions haven’t handled sexual assault cases involving their students very well. I was glancing around the job boards and noticed that a school that recently didn’t do a very good job of protecting their students, in my opinion, is hiring in my field. I’m not going to apply for the position for various reasons, but I’m curious – let’s say for example that one of the 85 colleges/universities under federal investigation for how they handled sexual assault cases is hiring in your field. The job is a step up in the career ladder for you and the location is generally in a place you could see yourself living in if you were inclined to move. Would you apply for the position?

    1. Sarah Nicole*

      I would apply. The whole point of the federal investigation is to improve the situation. If this school really is being looked at for this issue, it’s likely to be more scrutinized going forward so that students are safe and there are fair procedures for reporting assault and having it dealt with.

      I’ll also point out that you could consider an alternate scenario, which is that you find a job with a school that is not being investigated. It’ still highly possible that crimes and cover-ups go on there, too. This is a rampant problem at many schools. Hopefully the publicity of these issues over the past couple of years will improve this process for assault victims.

      The only problem I could see is that I suppose you might have trouble raising money for the school. But I would sort of think there are going to be lots of loyal donors regardless of this problem, so I’m not too sure. If that’s you main worry, I can’t shed light there.

    2. fposte*

      Yes, absolutely. Or at least, I wouldn’t let that fact rule it out. I think there are lots of institutions well worth working for on that list, and I think there are institutions whose attitudes toward assault and even whose records with assault are as bad or worse aren’t on it. (Actually, I know there are, because one of my alma maters had such an incident following the release of that list, so they aren’t on it.) I will cynically say that I might feel different if I thought the norm was handling sexual assault absolutely excellently and that these were the outliers, but I don’t believe that for a minute.

    3. AnotherFed*

      Absolutely. First off, US college culture has a pervasive problem with sexual assault that isn’t localized to just a few institutions. Unless your field were more directly related to handling sexual assault prevention and response, I wouldn’t consider the investigation results as much of a factor. Second, the time period right after a scandal would probably be one of the more interesting times to plan a development/fundraising campaign. As Sarah Nicole said, the loyal donors will probably remain, but the interesting part would be handling the marketing/PR and strategy for attracting/recovering donors who were upset about the incidents.

  141. Latingirl*

    I have a question. My daughter works for a grocery store and inside the store is another business. My daughter works for the other busniess inside the big store and was asked yesterday to come in and work in the morning from a co worker. About an hour or tow later the manager texts to ask if she could come in since she only need her for four hours, I told my daughter no because I needed her help so I could get things done. The manager of the small business replied back upset that my daughter wouldn’t come in on her day off and work like she has ever since she switch to that department. She texted back and told my daughter that she wasn’t going to give her no more hours for not coming in on her day off. So I texted her and asked why my daughter was being threanting with not getting any hours because she couldn’ t come in. Then manager went to HR of the bigger business and was coughed into what to text back to me. The manager texted back and said that my daughter and HR and her would have a meeting in a couple of days to discuss this matter.My daughter started crying saying that she was going to get fired over her not going into work on her day off. So I took my daughter to the store to talk with HR and find out why this went higher then it had to,HR told my daughter she wasn’t going to be fired for not coming in. Well HR didn’t act like she cared so we went to the head store manager and told her what all happened and that we had text messages showing that she said she wouldn’t give my daughter any more hours. The head manager was mad at the manager and said that is was harassing and threanting my daughter with not giving her hours because I read to her everything that was said between the 3 of us. The head manager talked to manager and my daughter went in today to get yelled out because her register was wrong and that she knew that the other girl made a mistake with a gift card on my daughter drawer. Can this manager do anything to my daughter because she is in trouble for her wrong doing with upper management? Can someone please get back with me. Thanks

    1. fposte*

      As far as I know, there’s no law that prevents the manager from firing your daughter for going to upper management or for not coming in when asked; she can also fire your daughter because she doesn’t want to deal with you. Whether there are other things stopping her and whether she will or not we have no way of knowing; your daughter really will just have to wait and see.

      However: I know it’s tough when your kid is facing something difficult, but I think your diving into the situation makes it worse for your daughter, not better. Trust that you raised her right, trust that she can figure out a situation, and trust the fact that if she does make mistakes, that’s okay, and they’re for her to learn from. Let her handle this on her own from now on.

    2. AnotherFed*

      Assuming it’s at-will work, your daughter can be fired at any time, as long as it’s not because of a protected class. In this situation, it sounds like 1) there’s money missing, 2) instead of letting your daughter have a calm discussion with her manager and HR, you took her into work (on a day you already said it was not possible for her to come to work) and escalated the situation TWICE, and 3) the manger in question not only has to manage the employee, but also his employee’s mother.

      Honestly, if I were the manager in question, that would be too much drama to deal with – any one thing would be worth resolving, but taken as a whole, why would the manager employ your daughter when he can get someone else to do the work with a professional attitude and not bringing her mother to yell at his boss?

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yeah, it’s amazing that the managers even spoke with you at all. In many places I have worked, when the parent shows up that is the employee’s last day right there.

        Overall, this is the world of retail. You are expected to show up most of the time, if you are called into work. If you do not do that, you are seen as not pulling your weight. And yes, they will cut your hours. Retail is famous for this crap. Grocery stores are exceptionally good at treating their help bad.

        I am not clear on why you are so involved here. I am hoping it is because your daughter is under 18. Please show your daughter how to fight her own battles. Her ability to keep a job depends on this.

    3. soitgoes*

      I got stuck at the point where your daughter was asked to come in for some extra hours and you wouldn’t let her. I may be out of line here, but I got a “ping” on my “control issues” radar when you said you needed your daughter to skip a four-hour shift to help you with….chores and errands? And then you were the one who escalated things after your daughter got assurances that she wasn’t fired? It was your actions that got her in this situation. I’m not going to tell you that her managers were wrong, because they weren’t.

      And I’ve worked retail for big corporate chains, so I know this drill. Was it really your daughter’s day off, or was she on-call? I’m imagining that your daughter works at say, the Subway inside a Walmart. If she’s listed as on-call, it’s not up to you to say she can’t go in.

  142. nyxalinth*

    Well, after two months (long, annoying months) on the phones, I am getting a transfer to our processing department! No phones, no calling anyone, no being called, no one bugging me. Perfect for my introverted self. It’s data entry, we can have music or books on tape as long as we use headphones, and it’s going to be awesome. (within realistic expectations, of course!)

    God, I am so happy to be off the phone forever. It also gives me 50 cents more an hour, two days off in a row instead of split, and more hours a week. I will be full time which means benefits!

    2. fposte*

      I was just thinking we hadn’t heard from you for a bit and was hoping it was because things are going well–looks like they are!

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I had the same thought here. I was just trying to figure out how to spell “nyxalinth”, because I wanted to know how you were doing. Am glad you posted and I am glad things are changing for you!

    5. voluptuousfire*

      Congrats and big yay to not being on the phones! I’ve been there and constantly ringing phones…even just thinking about it makes my anxiety rise. :fistbump from fellow introvert:

  143. LizAnon*

    So I’ve been working at my current company for about eight months now, and it’s really beginning to hurt my feelings that my colleagues always exclude me from gatherings that aren’t company mandated. Lunches, dinners, drinks, shows – I’m never invited. They’ll make plans in front of me, and then talk about it endlessly after. Just last month, one had the nerve to invite everyone in the vicinity AND their partners to dinner, then turn to me and casually ask if I had any restaurant recommendations. Once, they even hijacked my gathering – at the end of a long week, I suggested we go out for a beer, and they agreed enthusiastically because no one had any plans. But before I could finish my work, they rushed out and headed to one of the many pubs in the area without telling me where they were going.

    I used to ask them if I could come along to lunch. I know that sounds presumptuous, but we get along well during work hours, we refer to ourselves as “friends” rather than “colleagues”, and I genuinely thought that they would start including me if I indicated that I was interested in befriending them. But things never changed – if I asked to join them, they’d act like it was okay; if I didn’t, they just don’t even acknowledge my presence. Now I just pretend not to see them in the pantry as I head out to get food on my own.

    Anyone else had this happen to you? Colleagues acting friendly and nice at work, then excluding you at gatherings? How do you deal with something like that? I’ve since switched from friendliness & openness to professionalism, and I think they’re beginning to notice it.

    1. Colleen*

      I am so sorry to hear that you are going through this. I do not have anything to share, but would be interested in others’ thoughts because I’ve dealt (not well) with a subtler variation of this before.

    2. Cruciatus*

      While my coworkers are a little less obvious, I’m sitting here nursing hurt feelings because I recently found out how OFTEN they have their “Ladies’ Nights” (tonight included). I thought it was a once a month thing (which still sucked to know about), then come to find out it’s weekly. And I will talk to all these people individually and all is fine (I think!) but at no point has someone thought “let’s invite Cruciatus!” Or if they did, it was pooh-poohed. And I’ve been here 4 years (tomorrow!). And I thought it involved just a few people, but no, it’s a lot of people, some who no longer work with us (and a couple of those people disliked me for reasons that have never been explained–and I think they are important enough to the group that I stay uninvited despite EVERYONE else (seemingly?) liking me). I know around here (Ask A Manager) people often say that people at work shouldn’t be your friends and this shouldn’t be an issue but my work place isn’t like that–and it sounds like yours isn’t either.

      So, I don’t really have advice. Just can say I get it. It sucks to be excluded. It sucks to find out how often you are being excluded. And it definitely sucks when they make plans in front of you and don’t invite you along and/or then talk about the event later in front of you forgetting (or not caring) that you weren’t invited in the first place.

      I guess just stick to the professionalism–you can’t go wrong there. I’d love to call my coworkers on it but I know it will only make the situation awkward for everyone and then maybe I’d lose even the small social circle I do have during the work day. I hate feeling like a fool who just continues to take it without comment but I feel like it’s the best option in my situation. I wish you the best though! I’m sorry about your situation. Maybe with time it will improve. Perhaps you’re still too new. Or maybe we both work with inconsiderate clique-ish people. Time will tell (for you anyway. Pretty sure I know which answer covers my coworkers…)

    3. AnotherFed*

      I don’t think it sounds presumptuous to ask to come along, especially if they are chatting right in front of you. If you really do want to go to something, ask point blank in a one-on-one situation with one of them. You may find that showing up once is the gateway to getting invited to more things. I know when I first joined my current team, it wasn’t until I invited myself along to an outdoor paintball event in December that they seemed to realize I did not actually roll back to a charging station and turn off outside of the M-F work week.

      That said, if you get dodged by your coworkers when asking point blank, it’s time to back off. It certainly hurts your feelings to not be included and to be left out, but these people are coworkers first, so as long as everyone is polite and professional, that’s all you can require of them. Don’t be the person your coworkers write in about because you try to invite yourself over to their house or something else over the line!

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Ugh. ugh. ugh. Well you have some decisions to make- like what you want out of the job, how long you want to stay and so on. If this is a big deal and it sounds like it is, it might be time to move on.
      The only thing that has worked for me with this type of problem is to make sure I become the best employee I can be. Be professional, be accurate, be on top of your game. Think of the job as a classroom, where you are learning skills that will serve you well at the next job.

    5. soitgoes*

      Wow, that’s really lousy. It’s not the typical “everyone gets along, but that little group just happens to be closer.” You’re getting the Mean Girl treatment. I’d wonder if there’s one person in the group who doesn’t like you for whatever reason. But I wouldn’t worry about it. I say this a lot: people reach junctures at which they simply aren’t interested in making new friends, even if they meet someone new and awesome. You might be at the age where that’s starting to happen more and more.

    7. HR Generalist*

      I’ve been here in my personal life but not my professional life. We moved to my partner’s small hometown, leaving my former friends/family four hours away. There is a small group of “lifers” in the town who are generally girlfriends of the men who never left (or who left and came back, like us). It’s been hard – finding out you’ve missed an event because you weren’t invited but everyone else was, particularly girls nights, and then having to sit through the stories of “That was SO funny- remember that?!” is terrible.

      My advice would be to separate and move on. Befriend people outside of work and don’t worry about what this group is doing. Be professional at work but decide that group isn’t for you. Sorry I can’t be more helpful!

  144. Julie*

    So I’ve recently moved to a city where there are plenty of museums and other attractions that you can buy memberships to. Many have young professionals programs listed as a membership option. Are these ever worth it for your career? Do you have to be on a certain career path or in a certain field to see value?

    1. Natalie*

      In my experience, at least, those are just slightly discounted memberships rather than active networking programs…

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        That’s been my experience as well. There are Young Professionals Patrons programs for some arts organizations, but they’re not intended to serve as a place for professionals to network, necessarily– they offer ticket discounts, special events, and other perks in exchange for your patronage. If you sign up and you go to the events, you’ll get to meet other young professionals who are interested in the same organization, and as a bonus you might get to do some professional networking. I would only sign up for one of these if I enjoyed the organization and I wanted to support it.

    2. EmilyG*

      I think these are mostly for social purposes–although if you’re looking for a position as a professional society wife, some of them may be just right…

    3. AnotherFed*

      I think it’s similar ‘networking’ to your adult rec league sports team, a volunteer organization, or a church group – the primary benefit is meeting and befriending people who have at least one common interest with you and having a regular outing or event that you look forward to and enjoy doing. These people become part of your extended network, but may be in totally different career fields or industries than you.

  145. MJ (Aotearoa/New Zealand)*

    Confirmed restructure is due out on Tuesday, so I get to spend the weekend thinking about whether I want to take a punt at a job that is a BIG step up (and high-stress at a point in my life where that might not be the best option for me) or take redundancy and think about what to do next.

    1. Nynaeve*

      MJ, that’s a tough position to be in! I wish you the best of luck in making the right decision for yourself. Take a block of time to think. Pay attention, not just to your thoughts (pros/cons for each), but to your gut reaction. Obviously, talk with anyone who would be financially affected by choices you make.

      Also, just take some time to do something fun or relaxing. Self-care is very important during times of intense stress like this.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      If you put in for the job, you can always say no if it’s offered.

      When I am faced with a decision that I just cannot sort out, I find that collecting up more facts is helpful. Find out more facts about the new job. Find out more facts about what you could do if you took redundancy. See where the increased knowledge puts you.

  146. MrsL*

    Did I do the right thing?

    I heard back from a job I applied for and had a scheduled phone interview with Chocolate Teapot Mugs company yesterday. Very exciting!

    After the interview I noticed that I had received an email on LinkedIn from a recruiter from Chocolate Teapot Company (the parent company). She was looking to fill a position where she thought I might be a good fit and wanted to speak with me if I was interested.

    I wrote back, letting her know that I was interested to hear more about the role, but that I also had just talked with XX in regards to a position at the Chocolate Teapot Mugs Company.

    I felt that I wanted to be transparent, in case they would know each other.

    Thought?

    1. StudentA*

      The recruiter works directly for the employer, correct? It’s not a third-party?

      If so, I don’t think there is anything wrong with what you did. In fact, if I were the recruiter, I’d be confused if I later found out you’d been speaking with a colleague and failed to mention it to me at some point :) So even if you didn’t mention it on the LinkedIn message, I would hope you would otherwise mention it early on in the process.

      May I ask if this is a very specialized position or something? Or a very small industry? I think it’s really interesting that two representatives from a company got in contact with you. That doesn’t sound typical! Congrats!

      1. MrsL*

        Yes, both recruiters work directly for the employer. I can’t know for sure if they are colleagues, but I thought that chances are high that they know each other.

        I would not say it is a small industry. Both positions are somewhat similar and fairly entry level. They are geared towards an area I have experience with that they are clearly looking for and it is something I want to continue doing. There are not many similar openings out there right now, which makes it really exciting!

        1. Sospeso*

          That’s great that you caught the eye of two different recruiters! It’s a little unusual that they’re with the same company, but not outlandish, especially if it is a large company without a solid applicant tracking system. I agree with StudentA – it makes sense that you mentioned your contact with the first recruiter to the second early on. Good luck!

  147. JBurr*

    (Posting under a different username since I’m asking at the boss’ behest!)

    We have some employees asking about an unusual benefit that I’m wondering if other folks offer: assistance for first-time home buyers.

    My and, my boss, the HR Director’s first reaction was, “No, that doesn’t even really sound practical,” and we weren’t sure where the employees even got the idea that we offered that. Apparently, though, our not-really-new-anymore, multi-national parent company based overseas offers this to their employees in the home country. It definitely still has not been implemented here, state-side, but we could see the parent company asking us to do so at some point since they’ve done so with a couple other policies in the past. So, we were wondering if this is something other U.S. employers do and how it might even work?

    1. CAA*

      Yes, it’s common among universities and local government employers, especially police and fire depts who want their employees to live close by. I’ve also worked for a Fortune 500 company that had negotiated discounts on mortgage rates with a bank. This benefit was not limited to first-time buyers though.

      Google employer assisted housing for more info.

  148. angel tears*

    Can someone please explain to me the whole “it’s super difficult to get fired from a government job”. I am talking about professional office jobs with high expectations and fast-paced environments. Jobs where everyone has a bachelor’s and many a master’s. Just how secure are they, really?

    When I explain that I want to work for the government because of job security, sometimes people look at me like I’m totally naive. Like “Of course you can get fired from a government job”. I realize it is possible to get fired from a government job, but if you perform well, is it safe to say your chances of getting fired and extremely slim?

    I’d appreciate any stories or anecdotes you can share.

    1. fposte*

      Well, remember that it’s one of those things that floats around like “It’s illegal to give any reference information other than dates worked!” Just because people say it a lot doesn’t make it true. And there are a lot of different kinds of government jobs (and different governments, for that matter), so you really can’t extrapolate across all of them. Plus we’ve heard a ton here about private industry jobs being reluctant to fire people, even horrible people.

      Government jobs are likelier to have to *justify* a firing than private industry, and it might take longer to get people fired on average, but I don’t think it’s true to say that your chance of being fired is extremely slim across the board.

    2. LCL*

      Very condensed version:
      If you don’t aspire to management, it is harder to get fired from a government job. It is very hard for a boss to fire you just because they don’t like you. But you can get fired for serious misconduct. This is partly but not entirely due to the fact that many government jobs are unionized. Every job I have worked, public and private, has at least one employee that really should be fired.

      If you want to be a manager/supervisor, you are subject to the will of the CEO/Superintendant. And the Superintendant can be replaced because the governing body (President, mayor, state legislature, city council, etc) decides to replace them. Then the new Sup will choose his/her own managers, and the old managers are out.

    3. AnotherFed*

      At least for federal government jobs, the burden of proof for a firing is on the employer. An employee can’t be fired on the spot except for egregious offenses, and the process and paperwork can take a long time to assemble. In many cases, the employee chooses to swap to a new position in a different part of the agency/organization once the process starts, and the government is big enough that it’s usually possible to find a place where even a useless person’s reputation hasn’t yet reached. Realistically, if you perform well, don’t defraud the government, don’t commit espionage, and don’t commit a felony, it’s highly unlikely that you would be fired from a federal job (unless you’re a member of the military – then another set of rules applies).

      Where I’m most familiar with people saying the government has job security is in terms of lay offs. For the most part, federal governments don’t downsize if they lose work or a project ends. Even when one agency or organization closes, those federal employees get priority on transfers to other sites/agencies.

    4. skyline*

      Perhaps folks are thinking about the facts that there are due process requirements for discipline in government jobs, such as Loudermill hearings? I suspect firings for public employers probably take longer than they do in private industry. Some managers often don’t have the will to see the long process through to completion, which means terrible employees can linger way longer than they should. That said, bad managers are everywhere, and I don’t think that’s a problem unique to public employers.

      Also, keep in mind that firings are only one part of job security. Government jobs are publicly funded, and if that funding goes away–as it did for a lot of local municipalities reliant on property tax, sales tax, and new construction fees during the Great Recession–jobs can go away with them very quickly. I still work for a public employer, but I now refuse to work in a situation where my position has to compete with public safety for funding every budget cycle.

  149. T.*

    I have a coworker who I helped to train and the entire process of working with her has been a giant headache. My boss is aware of my (and others’) concerns and that working with her has been a major drain on my time, but since she is a maternity leave replacement, I basically just have to stick out the temp term. The thing that has been irking me the most lately is that in the process of training, I sent her examples of emails I would send for different tasks, and now she just copies and pastes what I wrote and uses it as her own. This is an ongoing issue because even for new things she will come to me and ask what to say and then copy my words directly. Am I being way too frustrated by the fact that she won’t just write her own messages, or is there a way for me to ask her to not copy my words directly? Part of my concern is that she doesn’t have a good grasp on our business and I think that’s why she’s not able to communicate using her own words, or even to paraphrase what I’ve explained to her.

    1. Artemesia*

      Just make sure that there is a united voice to your bosses about not hiring this person; that happens all the time.

    2. fposte*

      Would you be okay with her using your words if your boss knew it was happening and you got credit for it? If so, that could be part of the conversation Artemesia wisely implies should take place about this person.

      However, you also don’t have to keep telling her what to say. You can say “Sorry, too much of my own work to do these days.” If she pushes back, you can point out you’ve helped her get up to speed and now this is a task she’s good to go on alone.

      1. T.*

        Thanks. I did mention it recently to my direct boss, but that’s a good point that it’s something I should bring up to my big boss (who would decide if she stays) as part of a larger conversation about my concerns of her possibly being hired on after the temp position is over. The fact that she can’t compose her own messages because she doesn’t understand the business and what’s going on (after nearly 7 months!) should hopefully make it clear to my big boss that she would not make a good permanent hire!

        I have tried asking her to write her own emails and not wait for me to provide a message, but since we do similar work for different regions, she often is able to just copy what I have already sent out and re-use it for her region. This shouldn’t be a big deal since there is typically little overlap in our audiences, but as part of a larger trend it’s just driving me nuts!

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I copy/paste a lot of my boss’ words. I have to. I have to have exactly correct wording.

      Ask her why she is doing this. It could be as simple as she thinks things have to be worded in an exact manner.
      I see you have tried telling her not to do this and encouraging her to do it on her own, so you have those angles well covered. Ask her why. Then stop talking, expect her to give you a well formed answer. If she gives you a weak answer, tell her that part of the job requires her to write this stuff on her own. You need to know what part she does not understand, so you two can go over it and she can do this work on her own.

    4. soitgoes*

      I agree with NotSoNewReader. Part of my job is answering customer emails, and 90% of my responses are copied from pre-written templates. It’s still a time-consuming process, as I have to read through each one to make sure that I’ve changed all of the pertinent details, but it’s very important to make sure that the basic phrasing is correct and that I’ve covered the exact step-by-step processes of certain procedures. This kind of template-based email correspondence is common enough that I would assume that your temp had been trained that way before and that she thinks it’s the norm to handle email this way. I would probably do the same thing unless I was told otherwise…so you need to tell her otherwise.

  150. Good_Intentions*

    Third-Round Interview Follow-up

    Hey, everyone!

    I wrote on last Friday’s Open Thread about my upcoming third-round interview. It took placed earlier this week and is leaving me in a bit of pickle. The interviewer, the CEO, asked me repeatedly if I were interested in the position and concluded our meeting by asking if HR had contacted me about benefits and salary yet. I responded that no such conversation with HR had occurred and commented that I didn’t want to be presumptuous. He then advised me to look on the website and begin drafting questions. I’m hesitant to invest the time and energy in that until I have an offer.

    Early this morning, as I was getting ready for work, an HR assistant called to verify the email addresses of my references. I know that I’m a serious contender for the position, but I’m still concerned about some new information/responsibilities revealed only during the third interview.

    Thoughts on how I should move forward, especially given how aggressive I’m finding the CEO?

    Thanks!

    1. fposte*

      How much will you be working with the CEO, and how much did you see his approach reflected in the rest of the employees? (And what questions was he telling you to draft? I wasn’t clear on that.) In most companies I’d be less concerned with that than the duties you just heard about–and I’d only be concerned about them if they weren’t something I wanted to do, not that they were just talked about in the third interview.

      But maybe there are other smaller things that you haven’t identified or articulated that are putting you off this job–so walk yourself through the experience to see if you can identify them if so.

      1. Good_Intentions*

        fposte:

        Thanks for your response. The questions he wanted me to draft were regarding benefits and salary. My belief is that it’s a waste of time to really think really hard about salary and benefits until you know you’re being offered the position. I am currently employed but am looking for new opportunities.

        I’m finding the entire hiring process a bit much for my experience: a 20-minute phone screening, a 90-minute in-person interview with CEO and HR (same one as phone screening), and the an 1 hr. and 45 minute one-on-one meeting with the CEO in his office.

        The position will work closely with the CEO and do a lot of “dialoguing” about issues.

        1. fposte*

          The interview process doesn’t sound particularly out of line to me, but it also sounds like you’re not really feeling this; given that you’re in no need of jumping to jump, I think that’s reason enough to pass, especially when combined with working closely with somebody who you find somewhat offputting.

          1. Good_Intentions*

            fposte:

            Forgive me if I’m asking something too personal, but in your experience how many rounds of interviews are there? What is the typical length of the interview and when do you begin seriously thinking about salary and benefits?

            I’m a career switcher, and this position is much higher than the entry-level one I currently have in my second career.

            1. fposte*

              I’m in academia and at a state institution, so my personal experience doesn’t count :-). But certainly a phone interview and two face to face interviews is common; 60-90 minutes seems reasonable for a first interview, and 1-2 hours with the CEO in this case would seem pretty normal as well.

              I probably would be looking at the benefits and salary right now if I were interested in the job, but honestly I’d probably have looked at them as soon as the application if I could, because I’m like that. If you think you might have some interest, I’d say go ahead and look; they might also help crystallize a “no way” as well as just provide more information.

          2. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

            I agree that the interview process doesn’t sound extreme. It sounds like he’s really serious about making sure he’s got the right person, which is good. I recently considered another job (I’m also happily employed) and realized that I really couldn’t be bothered with the interview process, which told me that I wasn’t that excited about it after all. Maybe that’s part of it for you?

            1. Good_Intentions*

              Ashley the Nonprofit Exec:

              The position is actually in nonprofits, a high ranking communications job, and the interview process is much more intense than anything I’ve encountered in any of my previous positions. I second your comment about the CEO looking for the right fit, but I am still amazed about the amount of time he and his team are putting into the search and recruitment efforts.

              This is also the first time I’ve ever encountered a three-part interview process. In all my other interviews (nearly a dozen), the process has entailed a phone screen with either HR or the hiring manager and an in-person interview with hiring manager and maybe colleagues.

              Perhaps I’m just over-analyzing it because of how much time and energy I’ve expended without securing a firm offer.

              1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

                We normally do three parts – phone screen, 1st in person interview with the direct supervisor, and then final interview with the direct supervisor and me. In the meantime we’d probably give the person some sort of task or assignment, and we might give them another task to do in-person. Is this place smaller than where you work now? I’ve never worked on the for-profit side (except for college retail jobs), but we really cannot afford to waste money and time training someone who doesn’t work out – so we are super careful about finding the right fit. That may be generally more true in nonprofits.

                I can’t tell if you feel like you’ve sort of gotten an offer without it being made official, but if that’s the case, it might be that they don’t hire a ton of people and their processes aren’t that good (because it’s not ridiculous to wing it if you’re hiring on person a year). I’ve totally been there.

                1. Good_Intentions*

                  Ashley the Nonprofit Exec:

                  I’ve interviewed for lower-level nonprofit positions and received offers for them with only two meetings and no projects.

                  In fact, this high-level communications position was supposed to require writing samples, but the CEO didn’t seem terribly interested in looking at what I brought. I even offered to create a writing sample to demonstrate skills, but I was told it was unnecessary.

                  The offer thing is where I must admit to being very confused. On the one hand, the CEO keeps talking about the cultural fit while simultaneously telling me that there’s a second candidate to be interviewed. The weirdest thing yet is that he concluded our lengthy chat by telling me to start considering salary and benefits, and the next morning an HR assistant is calling me to confirm the best way to reach my references (by the way, I suggested emails because some have toddlers and others work long nights).

                  My thinking is that I have a very, very slight edge, but the other candidate is stronger on paper. I guess I will know for sure within the next week or so.

        2. AnotherFed*

          That sounds very reasonable – if this position is going to have to do a lot of work with the CEO, it makes sense that the CEO would take the time to be involved and ensure he gets someone who both can do the job well and can complement his work style such that you cover each other’s weaknesses.

          Are the questions you’re supposed to be prepping related to what salary range you expect, how much vacation you want, and what other benefits you’re looking for? If so, that seems really reasonable. If he wants detailed questions about whether the health insurance covers incidents like that one emergency appointment you had to make 6 years ago while on vacation in the middle of nowhere, then that’s odd.

    2. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      Everything sounds normal to me, even the part where job duties not having been mentioned before came up in the long conversation with the CEO. The reason the CEO would spend that much time with you is to make sure mutual understanding of expectations was achieved. Telling you to form questions is also good. That signals that the CEO is approaching things as a two way street.

      So, the good news is: completely normal.

      The bad news: you realllllly don’t seem to be into this opportunity at all. The part where you’re describing a healthy process and it’s off putting to you, that means something significant.

  151. how do i explain this?*

    I was at my old company for 2.5 years, and recruited by a company for what seemed like a promising position. After careful consideration and negotiating, I accepted. 4 weeks went by at the new job, where I worked long hours, produced good work, and received a lot of praise. Then I was let go. It’s been a week and I’m starting to look for work again, and plan to leave this job off of my resume. My question, however, is how do I explain leaving my old company, where I received multiple promotions and was well loved, to seemingly be unemployed? Any advice would be appreciated!

    1. Good_Intentions*

      how do i explain this?, please accept my sympathies for your current situation. I’ve had two jobs of less than a month that I decline to put on my resume. I was able to shift the tone of my resume to focus on volunteering and outreach projects that aligned with my career tract. Please be good to yourself during this stressful time and keep in mind that time to decompress and move away from the the unexpected firing will go a long way in helping you.

      Might I also suggest that you begin marketing your decision to leave your long-term previous employer as a chance to explore options or personal growth? I’m not suggesting that you lie but to focus on dispelling any concerns prospective interviewers may have about your current employment gap.

      On another note, are you currently volunteering or freelancing to keep yourself busy and add new skills to your resume?

    2. StudentA*

      You are leaving a lot of info out, so I can’t give you a well thought-out answer. Personally, while I would leave the job off of my resume, I would be honest in the interview. I would say that I thought I was making a smart, strategic move that ended up not being such. I would say it was not a fit on both sides and that the decision came from the employer side.

      Are some employers going to potentially stigmatize you for that? Yes, but not all.

      I know not everyone agrees with me, but I think it’s too risky to lie.

  152. C Average*

    So, I dressed for work this morning in a little black dress with a Peter Pan collar, and then threw on a slouchy black cardigan that ties at the neck. I had the fleeting thought that I resembled someone else when I looked in the mirror, but had to dash and didn’t give it further thought.

    At this point three different people have told me that I look like a character from Harry Potter.

    Ever worn something to the office and wound up feeling slightly ridiculous about it once you got there?

    1. Former Diet Coke Addict*

      I have a long black maxi skirt, and once I wore it to work with a plain white T-shirt and when I got there, threw on my plain black cardigan. I looked like a schoolgirl for some kind of strict religious academy. Never again–now I only wear that skirt with coloured tops.

      1. SLG*

        If your office culture is OK with it, I’ve found a leather biker-style jacket also goes a long way toward countering the “strict religious academy” look.

        1. hapax legomenon*

          Heh heh. Yeah – I went through a a “motorcycle phase” (2002-2009) and wearing the boots, gloves, jacket, etc really does affect the way people react to you.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      I feel your pain.Anytime I decide to wear a plain T-shirt (like the $7 solid color Target T-shirt), something comes up making me wished I had dressed more appropriately. It is usually a Friday before a holiday weekend or something, and I don’t have any meetings scheduled. Next thing you know. ..going away lunch for a vp.

    3. M*

      I misread the all-staff memo for this week and showed up ready for “dress down day” on Wednesday, only to find out that dress down day was in fact scheduled for Thursday.

    4. AnotherFed*

      I wore orange and green for St. Patrick’s Day this year, only to get to the office and discover that the effect was a little too loud… and no one else had done more than wear something with a little green on it.

    5. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      God yes.

      One time I wore a completely floral dress. I thought I would shake things up and buy/wear something different and it was………… awful!

      It was such a departure from what I usually wear, it was all anybody talked to me about all day. Lavender dress with white and green flowers. I felt like a grandmother’s couch. Longest day of my life. I could not wait to get home and throw it in the back of my closet never to be touched again.

  153. Happy*

    Ok I am in need of advice of something that happened to me. I would like to know what people would do about pursuing a job that you were asked an illegal question, such as how old you where or the like, and you knew that the answer will obviously affect if you get an offer, would you continue pursing the job out would you let them know not interested. Or some other option I’m not thinking of. What do you think?

    1. fposte*

      It depends. To be clear, it’s not illegal for them to ask “How old are you?”–in fact, it’s legal to ask about anything except for disability. Most employers can’t hire based on the answer to some questions, though which questions may depend on what state you’re in–there’s no federal bar on not hiring you because you’re married or because you have kids, for instance. It’s not a good thing for an interviewer to do, of course, and I think you’re right that you might not want to work for a company that isn’t going to hire you if you have kids or aren’t of the faith they want you to be; it’s egregious enough that I’d assume the interviewer was reflecting the company unless I saw indications to the contrary. So if I was sure I didn’t want to work there, I could definitely see withdrawing my name from consideration, or just not bothering to do it unless they called me to move me forward.

      But it’s what the person in the position feels like doing that matters. What did/do you feel like doing?

      1. Happy*

        I really don’t know the whole thing was weird. The way the question was phrased was that if I told them I was for example over 40 they wouldn’t hire me, also just to be clear that was not the question they asked, I don’t want to say what it in case the person working there reads this blog, but it was off putting.

    2. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      Well, it’s not illegal to ask the question, it’s just illegal to use the information you gain in your decision – which can be hard for an applicant to prove. I wouldn’t do anything drastic based on that – just keep your eyes peeled for other things that concern you. Are you sure that they were asking in order to decide whether to offer the job? Sometimes these questions get asked as a way of making conversation. I slipped and asked an application, “how old are your kids?” not too long ago – not appropriate, but we were chatting, and it’s a normal thing to ask someone. I didn’t hire her, but I did hire someone with kids about the same age has hers, so even if she thought I was inappropriate and negatively judging her response, it would have been easy to prove she was wrong.

      Not every interviewer is great at keeping all the appropriate boundaries in an interview. In my state, the anti-discrimination laws don’t apply if you have fewer than 15 employees, so it might not even be illegal for them to use the info.

    3. AnotherFed*

      Also keep in mind that asking how old you are is not illegal, and age discrimination only covers those who are 40 or older. Age is also the sort of thing that’s pretty easy to estimate based on a resume – occasionally there are people who have dropped so much of their employment history that it’s tricky, but there’s no way to hide that someone is 50 rather than 25 at the in person interview.

      It’s bad form to ask about age or another protected status, but some companies do it so that they can say their interview process did fairly consider a diverse range of candidates (and, unfortunately, sometimes they add minority candidates to make the numbers better). This seems to be common in companies with federal government contracts… or maybe I just only work with companies who take federal contracts!

    4. soitgoes*

      When I interviewed for my current position, my now-boss asked me my age. It was because I had work experience dating back to the late ’90s and had made a few mentions of “Oh, when I was in college 10 years ago…yadda yadda yadda” and I didn’t strike him as being over 25 (I was 29). He ended up liking that I was closer to 30, as the company is in the cosmetics industry and tends to attract immature applicants who just want a lot of free samples and glam cred and whatnot.

  154. Annabell*

    During a recent downsizing, my manager has had his title changed to my position (administrator). The title change had nothing to do with his performance, but to a general company reorganization.

    A lot of the work he is used to is now being done by our mutual manager (general team management), and he is being asked to complete the same work that I am doing. I’ve begun to notice a general “threatened” vibe when speaking with him about current projects. For example, I was explaining an initiative we were thinking about (just to catch him up), and he responded very defensively with “I know how to do this already, you don’t have to tell me again.”

    Could anyone provide any advice on how to work with coworkers who appear defensive about their new position at work?

    1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      Ouch. I can see why that would hurt. We did a merger several years ago, and there was some sort-term defensiveness on a few fronts. It took a lot of time for some people to get in the swing of things and feel secure. As a sort-of peer, you could make a special effort to help him feel respected and needed- maybe ask him for him with something you know he’s good at (I mean, don’t create fake questions, but when something comes up), or find a few extra opportunities to appreciate him? In our case, it took a LOT of this over a few months for folks to settle in – and a few never did (they are gone).

      1. Annabell*

        Thank you Ashley, this is really good advice. Sometimes its good to know that somethings just take awhile; and that’s ok.

        I’d like to make a special effort to make him feel valued. It was not his fault this happened, and he’s good at many things I’m not. I’ve just had a head start on the current work! And I don’t want him to feel inferior about that.

        Also, I’ve been feeling a bit apprehensive to approach him. He asked to take on a project I’ve been working on to help out, and even when I said I was OK, he kept pushing to take it off my plate. I really had to put my foot down to end the conversation, so I’ve been keeping my distance. Just seems like he’s been really spinning lately.

        1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

          That kind of makes me wonder if he doesn’t have much work to do and is worried about being productive enough to impress the new boss. When you’ve been somewhere for a while and you’ve got a strong track record with your boss, little ups and downs don’t really matter that much, but with a new boss, everything feels (and might actually be) so important. I let someone go right after the merger – everyone from the other company just LOVED him, but all I saw was low productivity, poor quality work, and constant, aggressive push-back. Maybe he was just off his game, but that’s all I had to go on and it wasn’t working and I didn’t want to be seen as tolerating that kind of thing. Just saying that to say that his sense of insecurity might not be unfounded.

          1. Annabell*

            Your inkling is correct; he does not have much work to do. Our new manager absorbed a big portion of his job, and hasn’t filled it with anything concrete yet (and maybe its too early to do so). And I agree with you; the insecurity he’s having could mean real loss of a his job. I’ve suggested to him to talk to our new manager about getting more work, rather than asking me. Does that sound fair to you?

            1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

              It does – not that you have to make it into a competition, but you also don’t want to be sitting around with nothing to do because that could put you at risk. I don’t know if this works in your situation, but is he in a position where he could propose a project to his manager? Things are SO busy after this kind of change, that it sounds logical that the new manager just hasn’t had time to give him more work, but might agree to something he comes up with himself.

              1. Annabell*

                We are definitely in a position to pitch anything that could increase efficiency. I’m fortunately in an industry that really values that! Thank you for suggesting this!

              2. Annabell*

                I’ve also started to document our conversations and put more meeting summaries in emails. I know the insecurity has nothing to do with me, but if we’re all trying to avoid looking bad in front of our new manager, I just have this feeling some bad behavior might mean “throwing coworkers under the bus”. Just general defensiveness to save face. Did you find any of that when your company merged?

                1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

                  Well, I don’t know. I wonder if people were hiding this behavior from me. I hope not! It was pretty clear that all the downsizing was already done, but some people did have good reason to worry that they wouldn’t do well. While nobody was demoted outright, there were some people who’s new positions had less influence or control than before because the scope of their role was smaller within the new larger agency – basically, instead of having 5 or 10 elements to their job, they had 2 or 3, but more of those two or three, and little to no influence over the people who were doing the stuff they used to do. Two of those didn’t make it. They may have just been people who needed total control and couldn’t deal with supervision/boundaries on their roles (which had be lax/absent for them before), or it might have been merger-related stress, or some combination. I also think that before the merger, some people had some many different pieces of things on their plate that they basically had a running excuse for poor quality work. When that excuse was gone, the quality wasn’t there. In the end, though, it was more their interpersonal interactions that did them in – excessive push-back, constant complaining, interfering with others’ work, etc.

          2. Annabell*

            I’ve also started to document our conversations and put more meeting summaries in emails. I know the insecurity has nothing to do with me, but if we’re all trying to avoid looking bad in front of our new manager, I just have this feeling some bad behavior might mean “throwing coworkers under the bus”. Just general defensiveness to save face. Did you find any of that when your company merged?

    2. AnotherFed*

      Yeah, that’s awkward for both of you. It sounds like even if he was performing just fine, he’s been demoted, and everyone knows it. He might not even realize he’s being defensive where he doesn’t need to be, so it will probably take some time and patience on your part to actively work at not being threatening. It’s more work for you, but try to open status update type conversations with something like “I’m sorry if you’ve already been updated on this (or if it came from you in the first place!), but just in case I didn’t pass this along, the plan for project Moonbeam is XYZ and here’s the latest report.” and open questions with “I’m not sure I understand Y in your report – could you please explain it to me?” instead of “I think you said Y but it should really be Z.”

      1. Annabell*

        Totally awkward, and if I were him, I would be feeling pretty crummy too. It’s hard when someone gets upset about being demoted to your role, because I really like my job! My job is great! And someone is really unhappy about being next to me. I’m trying to reframe my thinking that he’s more frustrated about the shift than the actual job he landed on.

        Sounds like I have some work ahead of me to be more patient with him, and try to understand his perspective. This whole restructuring and downsizing has not been easy on anyone, and I was fortunate enough to have very little change at all in my position.

        1. AnotherFed*

          Just try to keep your focus on how much you like your job and all the reasons why. Not because you should convince him that the job is awesome, but because 1) you shouldn’t let someone else’s unhappiness spoil something you otherwise enjoy if you can help it, 2) being around happy, optimistic people can help pull the group mood up, and 3) stressing over whether and why someone else is unhappy will just add to the awkwardness (especially if you tend to be an over-thinker).

          1. Annabell*

            Very good points. I think generally this person is a good, optimistic person, but has fallen on some bad luck. But good luck too, they still have a job! And I shouldn’t let their situation affect my good situation. All I can do is observe and adjust my phrasing at this point. The rest is up to him about how he wants to proceed.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      For an immediate response, I would simply say “I am sorry. I meant no harm.”
      Then I would look for opportunities later to confront the discomfort. “I don’t want to step on your toes [cut into your gig] and I want us to work well together. What do you think we should do here?”

      In this question you are using your sincerity to rise above the awkwardness of the whole thing.

  155. AnotherFed*

    Discussions about whether to enforce ‘core hours’ (mandatory 9AM to 3PM office presence) have been coming up at work this week. What your opinions on this?

    I’m kind of torn. It’s nice to have a consistent window you can be sure people are in the office, whether it’s for a pop-up second opinion on a set of drawings or a scheduled meeting, and I’m definitely irritated if I have to cover a meeting for someone else who didn’t show up/decided to telework or has to leave early, but that’s more a problem of not planning and not communicating than anything. On the other hand, I’m not a morning person, and if I worked late the night before I really don’t want to have to be at my desk by 9AM – as long as I don’t skip any meetings I must attend, who cares?

    1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      I see the value in it, but that does sound rigid. I have a few part-time positions that could really be scheduled in any number of ways. At a minimum, they are always scheduled to be present between 10am and 2pm Monday – Thursday (one person might choose 8am to 2pm, another 10am to 4pm, or whatever)- otherwise, it’s just too hard to schedule meetings with the part-time people. I also insist that everyone works 4 days per week for the same reasons – even if it’s a 20 hour/week job that could be done in three days. Otherwise, it feels like everyone is working around that person all the time. However, I do let people change this last-minute (late meetings, etc.) as long as they are generally available to work and schedule meetings during those hours.

    2. fposte*

      I think this is like the work from home post the other day–there really are things that get lost when you don’t overlap with your colleagues, but do the benefits make up for that? I do feel a little old-fart-ish when I hear the notion of coming in to work at specified hours decried as “rigid,” because it seems a pretty standard expectation to me.

      However, I think it’s a really different question at a workplace where that hasn’t previously been in force, because people are going to be losing a flexibility they’ve likely really appreciated. If I were upper management, I’d want to sell this thing sincerely and try to get people on board, even if not enthusiastically.

    3. Treena Kravm*

      I read a job description at an org that prides itself on flexibility for families, and they described something similar. Their hours were 10am-2pm, you absolutely had to be in the office. But then you could get there at 6am, or leave a 6pm, or do a traditional 9-5. The catch was that it had to be consistent, aside from specific circumstances, appointments, etc. It seemed like a huge person as someone without kids, I can’t imagine how amazing that would with kids.

      1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

        That sounds really great – but I wish that companies wouldn’t frame this stuff as just great for people with kids. People without kids often have just as much need for flexibility. As someone with a chronic illness, flexibility is a huge reason why I’ve stayed in my current job as long as I have. I can shift my schedule, pop out early if I need to, etc., and still work a full week without having to explain that I don’t feel good. When flexibility is framed around kids, to me there’s an implication that those without kids don’t need to take advantage of it, and I wonder sometimes if the flexibility is truly there for those who don’t have family obligations. For example, I find that sometimes people don’t understand why I push back about after-work-hours meetings on days when I can’t come in late (because something is scheduled in the morning). If I had kids, they would automatically see the problem. It’s just that I don’t have the stamina to do that many hours in a row – which I would rather not explain.

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      Considering a lot of places enforce “core hours” of 8:00 AM to 5:00 PM, I don’t see how 9 AM to 3 PM is any kind of imposition. If you’re a parent having to drop your kid off at school and pick her up from school, 9 to 3 is a pretty reasonable set of “core hours.”

      That said, maybe the guideline should be “Your being out of the office shouldn’t hamper productivity.” If part of your job is being available for impromptu consultations on a set of drawings, you don’t have a telecommute job. Or if you have meetings scheduled that you’re supposed to attend… attend them.

      1. AnotherFed*

        “Your being out of the office shouldn’t hamper productivity.” This is a really good way to put it – thanks! It also turns it into a productivity problem, not arbitrary rule being broken, and presumably means it would only come up in the event of problems/patterns.

        At least on my team, there would be an outright mutiny if 8AM was the required arrival time (we’ll happily work 10AM-midnight before 8-5), especially without a good reason. Any time there’s a meeting or event that requires people there (even outside their usual hours) and do their jobs. It’s just when the reason is ‘the big boss wants everyone at work by that time’ that the engineers (me included) think that’s a stupid reason.

  156. Schuyler*

    Performance evaluation time is coming up. As always, I’m a bit nervous; as always, I tell myself I shouldn’t be. I’ve been at my current employer for a bit over 5 years and it’s been my only post-college workplace so far, but it seems strange the way they do them. Employees log on to respond to three questions asking about their accomplishments related to their job description, related to their goals, and then training and opportunities that would be useful. Then their manager responds, then they meet to talk about it. Maybe it’s the norm and it’s just weird for us because our boss’ comments really just parrot our own? Is this how others’ evaluations go?

    As I have been thinking about it this week, I’ve been waiting for this thread so I may ask some questions of all those wise folks here:

    1. I believe that nothing on a performance evaluation should be a surprise. (Did I learn that here?) To me, that means that if Issue X had not been brought to my attention earlier, it shouldn’t be on a performance evaluation. Is that a reasonable expectation?

    2. If indeed issues should not be brought up for the first time on a performance eval, how does one address it if that happens? For instance, a few years ago my supervisor at the time noted on my evaluation that I was too brusque with staff. She never said that to me before or since, nor have any of my coworkers–that was the only time it was mentioned. I didn’t say anything about how it seemed inappropriate to have that on my evaluation since it was the first I’d heard of it because I didn’t know how, and I still don’t. Thoughts?

    3. I’m going to try and push for a bigger raise. I’ve done a lot of work this year, taken on a new role, assumed new responsibilities and fixing things that are issues, took on a major responsibility when one of our staff was on leave, etc. To me, this just feels like doing my job, but one of my coworkers said she would try to leverage that hard work into more pay. I just don’t know how to get it across since it seems so foreign. Does anyone have suggestions for how I should approach this?

    1. AnotherFed*

      That doesn’t sound too out of line. In an ideal world, a manger would take the time to add things, but ultimately, you will be most familiar with the accomplishments you had over the year. To answer your other questions:

      1. Surprises are generally bad, especially about single incidents that should have been dealt with already, but this is also a time to reflect on overall patterns throughout the year (or whatever your evaluation period). So, for example, your manager might have addressed individual problems and successes, but not overall advice and career feedback that you are very strong in areas A and B, but if you want to be rated more highly/get a promotion/get assigned to the projects you keep asking for, you will need to work on Area C.

      2. First, be open to feedback, not defensive. Ask for specific examples, if possible, and what your manager’s expectations are instead of how you handled it (assuming it’s something like ‘be more friendly’ and not ‘stop hitting people’ or ‘show up on time’). It could be that your manager isn’t great, it could be that other people have pointed out a general trend when providing feedback on you to your manager, it could be the case of pattern vs. individual incident again, or it could be that you get defensive enough that it’s easier to live with minor performance problems than deal with getting you to change your behavior.

      3. Focus on your achievements and the increase in work products/responsibilities. Basically, make a fact-based case for why you and your work are now more valuable to the company than your pay reflects.

    2. fposte*

      I think you’re getting overfocused on #1. Yes, ideally you’ll hear about something before the annual review, but it still counts as feedback if that’s where you hear it, and I don’t think it makes sense to argue that it should be disqualified if you didn’t get advance notice. If you do get feedback you haven’t heard before, treat it like you would any feedback–okay, I’ll take that on board, etc.–and then ask if there’s a way you can get feedback like that at other times during the year so you can address it earlier.

      On #3, sure, sounds absolutely legit to ask for a bigger raise (I’d leave out the handling stuff when somebody was on leave, though, since temporary coverage doesn’t usually translate to permanent income enhancement). Do your homework and decide on a number to ask for. If you type “asking for a raise” into the AAM search box you’ll see several relevant posts, including one called “What to say when you ask for a raise,” so that should give you some good suggestions on the specific language. Good luck!

    3. Schuyler*

      Thanks, I appreciate the advice you both have given. I guess I’m hung up on the “should have been brought up earlier” part simply because it seems… unfair, I guess, for lack of a better word… to potentially give someone a bad review (not that I’m really expecting one, but we have a newer, questionable supervisor and I don’t know what to expect) when you’ve never told them it was an issue and given them the chance to make corrections in the first place. I always feel like I need to go into these things on the defensive, for a variety of reasons, none really related to performance anyway (except that I never feel like I have enough time to make headway in anything).

      Good point on the temporary work thing. I’m trying to consider whether I should ask at all since as I said I feel like it’s my job so I do it, and how can you ask for more work just by doing your job? I’ll see what other hints and tips I can dig up here too!

  157. WTM*

    I just had a really nice meeting with my former manager, current manager, and our national director! My fellowship’s coming to an end, but they’re offering me a contract extension through the rest of the spring in order to give me some cushion time to find a job (along with a possible stipend increase to help with expenses because I’m tied to my lease for 2 more months), and since I’m planning on moving home after that, the director (who’s also from that area) offered to help out with my job search via her networks. I will be sending my resume to her for review this weekend.

    I didn’t think they’d be like “no get out” at me, but it was comforting to know that my org does care about my professional development. I’ve had a very tumultuous week in terms of job-hunting, so it was nice to get some reassurance at the end of it!

  158. Nynaeve*

    Apologies in advance for the Great Wall of Text, a feat of human engineering visible from space. Feel free to skip to the **tl;dr** (or, you know, just skip altogether).

    The supervisor for our department left in June. There were three candidates for the job: Catelyn Stark, Grand Maester Pycelle, and internal candidate (from our department) Asha Greyjoy. Each candidate had a day-long interview with a tour, an interview, a meeting with the other Associate Directors, a presentation that anyone could attend, lunch with our department, and a final meeting with the director, Selyse Baratheon. Selyse asked for our department’s feedback and explicitly said that she wanted to make sure she didn’t pick someone who wasn’t a good fit with the existing team. The consensus was that Catelyn was our favorite candidate (second-favorite, in Asha’s case); we had a few potential areas of concern with Asha, but felt she could do a good job after a steep learning curve; and Pycelle looked good on paper, but didn’t really click with us. Also, why was a Grand Maester applying here? It seemed odd. Also, some of his answers to questions about his presentation were very indirect and didn’t answer anything, and a lot of his comments were peppered with *very* heavy flattery. I mentioned my concerns about these facts to Selyse, and she said, “It was probably just nerves.”

    In September, Selyse offered the job to Grand Maester Pycelle. He was supposed to start at the end of September. We were not thrilled, but we were willing to give him a chance and hope for the best.

    When October comes around, we find out that Pycelle’s current employer won’t release him. The paperwork is still being processed, etc. The start date is pushed back until the end of October. October comes and goes; same thing. The start date is pushed back to November. Since there is a hiring freeze in December, Selyse told Pycelle that if he couldn’t start in November, he would have to wait until January. He can’t start in November. Everyone is shocked, SHOCKED! His start date is pushed back to January.

    At this point, we have literally started a pool and placed bets on when (if ever) Pycelle will actually start. (Spoiler alert: the most pessimistic person wins.) At the end of January, Selyse finally tells us that if Pycelle can’t provide a firm start date by February 1, she will offer the job to Catelyn, and if Catelyn declines, she will re-post the position.
    She says this while Asha is in the room, basically flat-out telling Asha, in front of her colleagues, that there is no way she will get the job.

    I speak with Selyse privately later and tell her that I’m sure she was stressed and didn’t mean anything malicious by it, and that there might be legitimate reasons why Asha might be out of the running, but that our department had no business knowing it. I pointed out that this was probably demoralizing to Asha, it wasn’t a respectful way to treat an internal candidate, and that I thought she owed Asha an apology. She said, “I take your point.” No apology was ever issued, but on the upside, I don’t seem to have suffered any kind of retaliation for saying this.

    Pycelle is not able to give a firm start date. The job is offered to Catelyn, who, quite reasonably, declines. Asha is demoralized and burnt out and says she wouldn’t take the job at this point even if it were offered to her, which it is not.

    The position is re-posted and Selyse asks me to be on the search committee. I feel a little awkward about this, since I have only been with the company for a year and a half and everyone else in my department has been there over ten years, but I accept because I figure this way, our department might actually have more weight in the decision-making process. Selyse makes the position *harder* to qualify for and only advertises it locally. We get one applicant, who is not at the right level and has a history of one-year stints.

    This week, Selyse notifies our department that Pycelle has finally been released from his previous employer, and she has offered him the job. He is slated to start mid-April. She tells us all to “give him a fair chance.”

    I… hope things will go well, but I am not optimistic. There are enough red flags here to open a matador supply shop. Does anyone have any suggestions for heading off potential drama or just coping? Am I overreacting?

    **tl;dr: Our director alienated an internal candidate and showed blatant favoritism to a candidate no one else liked, to the point of holding the job for him for 6 months, and now things are tense.**

    PS: Thanks for your advice last week, Not So New Reader… it doesn’t look like I’ll get to use it though. I hope I at least answered your question about the morale issue!

    1. GOG11*

      This one’s a doozy! I don’t have any advice, but I wanted to wish you luck. I hope some other commenters have some good tips for you.

      1. Nynaeve*

        I will take all the wishes for good luck that I can get! It’s reassuring that at least one person who’s not involved in this situation thinks it’s weird and difficult… it’s hard to keep perspective when you’re caught up in it.

    2. Steve G*

      Well I guess there was no point of having a search committee or lunch w/ the interviewees if what you thought wouldn’t count! This sounds really annoying.

      At Last Co, my coworker was being transferred and asked to stop going to the interviews for her replacement because management gave zero credence to what she said. As the job was new when she started and grew as the business grew, no one knew what she did, so her opinion should have been given the most weight. It seemed like at a few points, that they favored the exact candidates that she said wouldn’t work out. It was annoying to watch. The person that management hired (against her better judgment) was constantly overwhelmed even though they didn’t do much, and they quit with no job lined up, which was sad to watch because their job was sooooo not overwhelming. Great pick!

      1. Nynaeve*

        Right? It’s one thing to not be asked for an opinion; it’s so much worse to have the *illusion* of meaningful feedback. Extra demerits if you’re ignoring the opinion of the ones with the most expertise or the ones with the most invested in the situation.

    3. Christian Troy*

      I’m not sure this is the response you’re looking for but I learned the hard way these things happen and sometimes a lot. I’ve had some experiences where the hiring manager moved forward with a candidate for strange and sometimes bad reasons or latched onto the idea of a candidate so hard they were unwilling to move forward with the applicants that were there. It sounds like to me your manager got blown away by the Grand Maester, and maybe not even him specifically, but the idea of someone with his credentials in this position. However, I would keep in the back of your mind that when she reposted the ad, she was purposefully skewing the description to get a certain result and sabotage the process, which is not okay.

      I don’t think there is really much you can do except move forward with your work, but be mindful this is what your boss did in this situation. It seems like she doesn’t really have the group in mind, only her own needs and interests.

      1. Nynaeve*

        I think you hit the nail on the head that Selyse is mostly enamored of the idea of someone with Grand Maester credentials for this position. I actually heard a second-hand rumor from another department that Selyse was still holding out for Pycelle even after she re-posted the position. (It’s been almost a year; people are talking.) Given what happened, I believe it. This would explain why she narrowed the search instead of broadening it, and why she offered him the job again as soon as he was free, even though the deadline for the second posting hasn’t passed. Oh well.

        To be honest, I think I was more or less expecting to hear what you said: this isn’t a great thing, but it happened, and there’s not really a lot you can do. It’s actually kind of freeing. I tend to feel responsible for fixing things I did not break, so being told that there’s nothing I can do to fix it frees me to focus on other things. :)

  159. Alistair*

    Hey everyone, it’s been a long time since I last posted, though I still read everyday. I hope this isn’t too late for a Friday open thread.

    I’ve been messing up a lot at work lately, mainly related to the fact that I Just Don’t Care. It’s been hard for me to get interested in my projects, ask needed questions, and follow through. It came to a head today, and I’m going to work on some personal things I hope can help me.

    But the question I want your help with is this: I want to ask my boss for specific things to help me more, and I’d like some more ideas from you all. So far, I want him to give me a list of deliverables, and firm deadlines*. On a more conceptual level, I know that having some real say in the project helps my interest. If I feel like I’m more than just a CAD jockey, I naturally want to do a better job. Are there other ideas you all have that might help me out? Thanks muchly!

    *on the notion of a firm deadline, ‘as soon as possible’ does squat for my productivity. It simply doesn’t mean anything to me. When my boss says that for a deadline, what can I say in response, so that I can have a ‘real’ deadline?

    1. fposte*

      I’ve got nothing to do with CAD, but in my field, this might be a tough sell; it’s a staffer who hasn’t been performing optimally who now wants to tell me I should manage him differently in a way that takes more effort because he’s not happy self-governing. I don’t think it’s impossible to raise this as a question, but it’s not something a manager will simply leap to in order to oblige.

      So I’d go for a meeting. “Boss, I think you may be doing this to be generous, but the flexibility you give me on job deadlines ends up just giving me enough rope to hang myself. Would you be willing to try giving me deadlines on tasks, or at least target dates, instead? And is there any chance I could get a list of deliverables periodically so I have a better idea of the big picture?”

      I would leave asking for say in a project until my performance improved–that’s not something they’re likely to do remedially. And in general, whatever they say and however long the wait until your meeting, try to step up your game some. You don’t want to be the employee who’s not worth the time. Good luck!

      1. Alistair*

        Good food for thought. Thanks fposte! Especially the thought that I seem to want my boss to handle me with kid gloves. Which I don’t want. I need to make sure that I ask about deadlines and such each time, put the onus of information gathering on my head, and not expect it from him. Thanks again.

        1. fposte*

          Another possibility, if you know enough about how timelines there work, is that you can propose a deadline to him when he assigns you something. “So usually I’d get two weeks for this–does it work to say it’s due by April 3?”

          1. Alistair*

            After your last comment I had been pondering about self-imposed deadlines, whether in my own head, or communicated to my boss. I think it’s something I can do to help myself without burdening my boss.

  160. Steve G*

    Lousy interview questions ?

    I had this phone screen earlier this week and since I haven’t heard back, I guess it’s not going anywhere.

    I was totally thrown off b/c every interview I’ve had for the past couple of years has been like a real conversation, I can’t remember the last time I heard a “gimmick” question.

    These were the questions, with what I was thinking and why it was hard to come up w/ a good answer:
    1) Name something you are proud of. – A lot of my accomplishments were done under periods of intense stress and OT, so I experience relief more than being proud when I accomplish many meaningful professional accomplishments. Why does it matter if I’m proud or not? Doesn’t it matter what I actually did?
    2) Name a time you’ve failed – well, 99% of my last job (if you had read my resume) was doing the million analytical/regulatory things to keep millions of dollars of a portfolio in the market. Failure is absolutely not an option. If I foresaw a problem I raised it, it didn’t make me look bad to raise problems in “my” work. So I never actually failed at the last few jobs…..so…IDK what to say! Is this question because they are a startup and entrepreneurs think you need to fail in order to succeed? IDK
    3) Name your experience with technology – such a vague question that I didn’t even know what to say, and the interviewer didn’t help. B/c the interviewer was so vague, I totally forgot a few good examples from past jobs…

    and to close it “tell us what our company does.” Good question, but ten minutes earlier I explained how I wasn’t 100% sure what they did because the website didn’t give specifics and it looks like a lot of their software is very proprietary. So why are you asking me about the same thing again?!

    I have tens of examples of handling high profile/difficult customers, saving lots of money – one time I got a fine in the hundreds of thousands of dollars refunded….but we didn’t talk about any actual accomplishments

    1. AnotherFed*

      The technology one sounds pretty gimmicky, but the others don’t seem so bad, and are pretty common questions. You could easily have used the ‘what are you proud of?’ one to talk about your accomplishments. That’s exactly what it’s there for – to get you to identify what accomplishment(s) you think are most valuable/awesome/worth discussing and why.

      As for the failure question, this is typically so they can get a feel for how you handle major problems/mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes, so finding a candidate who can self-identify that they made a mistake and talk about what they did about it and how they prevented it or something similar from happening again is pretty critical. In my experience with regulatory things, something is always non-compliant, even with critical medical devices where literally hundreds or even thousands of people’s lives depend upon the devices (and their verification, QA, maintenance, etc. all being correct).

      1. Steve G*

        I guess you’re right but I was thrown off by the word failure, I was thinking hard trying to think of a cold, hard failure. You mentioned you also touch regulatory things, and so you know that while there are problems/compliance issues, those sort of things can happen by themselves and then you fix them asap, I can’t really frame those issues as a personal or even a company failure (unless we systematically didn’t self-audit, which wasn’t the case). If we didn’t address them, it would have been a failure maybe, but….

        1. AnotherFed*

          That it’s hard to think of solid failure probably means that as soon as you realized there was a problem, you started fixing it or doing damage control to minimize the impact! That’s a good place to be – now it’s just thinking about what situation to use in an interview.

          Oh, yes, compliance issues just seem to grow out of the woodwork, but the big problems usually have some help, even it’s just that the person who found it didn’t think it was actually a problem and never told anyone else. If you use an example like that, you can talk about both the ‘failure’ to identify it as a problem early and maybe a process/oversight error that means it wasn’t noticed by the right people, then both how you solved the specific issue and how you improved oversight/reporting/training/processes so that similar problems wouldn’t get missed.

    2. Good_Intentions*

      Steve G:

      Please know that you are not alone in suffering through really generic and pretty useless interview questions.

      I have participated in 11 phone screenings since the beginning of the year, and most of them have asked me to answer simple behavioral questions or to repeat my resume verbatim, including my college education from more than a decade ago!

      As someone who has spent the past six years working to develop a second career through volunteering, formal education and taking low-level jobs, I find myself growing impatient with HR representatives who choose to only go by basic questions and decline to engage me as an individual candidate.

      If you discover a way to make the initial phone screenings a less painful and annoying experience, then by all means share in the information. Many AAM readers, including myself, would greatly appreciate it.

      1. Steve G*

        I guess we have to come up with standard answers to some of these questions and not count on all interviewers being good at what they do and/or reading the resume beforehand! It’s nice to have a kindred spirit out there going through the same thing, most of my family/friends can’t relate because they aren’t in corporate-type jobs or haven’t job hunted in years…

        The wording “decline to engage me” really fits, that’s how it feels. I spend hours and hours looking through ads, apply only to a few, customize my materials…..and so it was a disappointment to have this interviewer have a conversation that felt more like awkward talk with someone on the bus about the weather than about anything of substance. I’d rather be grilled with a 100 personal questions so at least they’d get a sense of something that matters

    3. Sospeso*

      Oof, that can make for a dull phone conversation, but like AnotherFed says, some of these are pretty common questions. Like you, I enjoy when an interview develops kind of organically and feels more like a conversation than 20 questions, especially if the interviewer is someone you’d be working with directly. (It seems to give me a better idea of what it’d be like working with them than a more structured, formal interview.)

      However, having been on the other side of the interview, I can understand why many people rely on boilerplate questions to lend structure to an interview, especially novice interviewers. It’s also possible the person you spoke with was told to cover specific questions. Unimaginative and robotic? Sometimes, absolutely. But the generic and “gimmicky” questions can be an easy jumping-off point for your to discuss your accomplishments.

      Good luck with your interviews!

  161. Sospeso*

    I’d love some advice about my work situation. I’ve only been in my current role for about 8 months, but I am beginning to have serious doubts about whether I can stick it out. I enjoy a lot about the role, but my manager is becoming an increasingly tough pill to swallow.

    This manager is condescending and belittling towards me and my coworkers. She is inconsistent in her recommendations and direction (telling us to address a situation one way in the morning and a different way that same afternoon, after it has already been addressed in the first way), but she wants the final say on everything that crosses our desks. To boot, she is insulting much of the time (e.g., she recently told a coworker that he wasn’t “funny” without a note of irony or humor, not to mention her disparaging remarks about another coworker’s clothing). Additionally, she recently cut my hours and dialed back my responsibility, which is especially strange considering there is plenty of work to be done. Part of the reason I took this position is because I was told it was full-time and that the scope of the position seemed to be a significant step up for me. And because AAM readers are so good at considering all angles of a situation :), please know that my coworkers share my concerns about her. One person on our 4-person team has already resigned and the other is actively looking for other work because of her. Also, she has communicated that I am doing a good job, so I don’t think that’s the reason for the change in hours and duties – and I am certain she’s the one making the call (based on the company’s structure).

    My questions: When is it time to start looking for other work? Can I afford this being my “freebie” resignation considering my short employment history (in the three years since graduating college, this is my fourth position, including two internships) and that I want to go to graduate school in a year and a half? Have any of you cut ties with a manager causing you mountains of stress, and if so, was the challenge of transitioning jobs worth it?

    1. Steve G*

      I think you need to have a direct sit-down chat about the hours thing.

      Other than that, I’d do a little research on this person’s past and how often people in your company/industry tend to move around. 8-9 years ago I thought the same thing as you, that in order to escape the problem, I’d need to move. However, I learned – once I stuck out a job long enough – that people like this often move along. At past past job (5 years ago) everyone who caused me heartburn is gone. The incompetent unnecessary middle manager who never analyzed a thing in her life but got a job as the manager of analysts? Gone 8ish months after me? The bitchy director? A year and a few months after……etc. etc. etc. I would look at her linkedin. If she’d been there since 1990, yeah, you might have to be the one to go. But if your boss is getting a new job every 3-4 years, I’d definitely stay.

      1. Sospeso*

        I did speak with her about the hours when she first mentioned it. I kind of framed it as, “Getting the full-time hours that we initially discussed when I came onboard is important to me. What can we do to make that happen?” And essentially, the answer I got was, “Nothing.” I don’t think that’s the case, personally, but I don’t know that she’ll truly consider other scheduling arrangements, although I’ve proposed several that I think would benefit the business in different ways. I am just getting her gut reaction, which is a big no.

        You make a great point about how long she might – or might not – stay. I definitely have the mindset you mention – that I need to move in order to escape the problem – so it is good to hear from a more seasoned person that that isn’t always the most appropriate reaction.

    2. AnotherTeacher*

      The time is now. If the reasons (i.e., FT, more responsibility) you took the positions are not actually happening, that is a valid reason to seek a new position in less than a year.

    3. fposte*

      If you go to graduate school, your jobs before then, especially the kind of job you’re describing, aren’t likely to matter after that. And I agree that if it’s not full time, that’s generally legit to move on from; it’s an easy explanation.

      However: the internships are fine for short-term, but it sounds like this will be your second *voluntary* early departure. So you may get questions about duration, and given that you plan to leave wherever you’re going now after a year and a half, you may need to find a place that’s more comfortable with short-term workers. It’d be sucky to apply and swear that the short-term history you display is a thing of the past and you’ll stick with them for years, only to quit after eighteen months.

      1. Sospeso*

        You highlighted something I am concerned about but didn’t mention: the fact that candidates and employers make deals in good faith with one another. I am so frustrated with my boss partially because I accepted the way she represented the position during the interview process in good faith, and now I am finding out that she wasn’t entirely upfront with me. I am reluctant to turn around and do something similar to an employer: reassure them that I can stay for the long haul when I know that I plan to move on in a year and half. Unfortunately, at the level I am at in my field, contract and temporary work just isn’t the norm; most employers seem to implicitly expect a commitment of years to the role. I am considering mentioning my plan to pursue grad school in the near future, but I am also worried that would scare away potential employers! It is what I am leaning towards though, just because it seems like the right thing to do.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I’d start looking. Not for any one reason but for all the reasons you listed here.
      It’s been my experience that when a boss cuts your hours, says nothing is wrong that is not a good sign. This boss lies and is not trustworthy, she has proven that.
      On interviews, you just say they promised full time work and your hours have been cut, but the boss says she is pleased with your work.

      1. Sospeso*

        I agree that her words and actions aren’t in alignment. I guess I hadn’t thought about it in such a clear-cut way before (that she lies, and so isn’t trustworthy)… I am going to have to mull this over more, but this makes me wonder if I have been kind of mentally sugarcoating certain things about her.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Yes, she has many unacceptable behaviors. Your words: condescending, belittling, insulting and inconsistent. And the real word for her inconsistency is “lying”. She is probably being inconsistent so she can manipulate people and have a false sense of control. Since you are too new to have done any major “wrong” her only way to control you is to cut your hours.

          This type of boss is called a “nightmare”. If she has any management/leadership skills we can’t tell because she is hiding them very well.

          So now you have some extra hours each week available to do your job search. You can make it work for you.

    5. soitgoes*

      The “two year rule” isn’t something I’ve found to apply across the board and in all industries. If you’re young and working jobs that obviously aren’t connected to your major, it’s fine to move around a bit. Try to stick it out until the one-year mark, but start looking now. Only force yourself to stay the second year once you’re working in your industry of choice.

      1. Sospeso*

        Thanks for the input! I agree that the “rule” definitely varies by profession… and I’ve noticed that many people seem to be changing jobs more these days, so the “rule” may be changing overall, too. Unfortunately, I am working in an field kind of adjacent to my field of choice (trying to be vague here), so I am concerned that leaving before two years will hurt my chances when I apply to grad school. (You can’t work in my field of choice without graduate education, so it’s fairly common for people in my current field to use it as a stepping stone to these grad programs.)

    6. kirsten*

      Can you go over her head? I would try that first. I had a manager that my whole team had issues with and enough of us complained that she was moved to a non-managerial position and we got a new, much better manager.

      1. Sospeso*

        Ah, I wish! My coworkers and I all definitely feel strongly enough to do that and we’ve talked about it. It’s just that based on the department we’re in and our company’s structure, it’s highly unlikely that it would result in changes for her job. Instead, my coworkers and I would probably end up on the chopping block. If I do end up deciding to apply elsewhere and landing a job, I am considering mentioning that at the reason behind my decision, although that can be tough to do gracefully. I really like the other department heads I work with daily, though, and I feel that I owe a legitimate explanation to them (since I don’t think they really know the challenge of working under my manager). What do you think?

        1. Not So NewReader*

          You don’t have to explain it to other department heads. They already know the story.
          They are probably extra nice to you because they know you work for a fool.

  162. Wowsers*

    Is anyone here in the medical field? I’m a physician a couple years out of residency and I’m interested into getting into some kind of admin/management role. I’m not sure what skills I should be working on to make this happen. (I’ve asked at work and get vague non-answers.)

    Thank you for any ideas!

    1. Treena Kravm*

      I’m assuming you want to get into an admin role that requires your MD, right? I work in public health, and the only path I’ve heard of is a MHA (Master’s in Health Administration) which usually leads to employment at a hospital. I don’t know if you necessarily need more school as an MD, but I would talk to health administrators and get an idea of how they got there.

      Is public health a field you may be interested in? An MD/PH professional has very little patient interaction, and usually administers public health programs and provides some supervision.

      1. Wowsers*

        Hi Treena,
        Thanks for responding to my question. Yes, I would want a role that uses my MD and I’m not willing to go back for another degree, so if an MHA is necessary that would be out. I’m not trying to avoid patient interaction, it’s that I’m hoping to diversity. I’d like to do like 50% clinical care and 50% of something else. I’m at the stage of wondering what that other 50% could be. :) Becoming a clinic director or medical director would be one way to mix it up, and if there are specific skills or experiences that will be highly valued, I’d invest the time now in trying to develop those skills.
        Wowsers

  163. Anx*

    I have read a lot of advice that suggests addressing long-term gaps in resume either on the resume or in a cover letter.

    I use an experience section instead of an employment section and include my internship and long term volunteership already. Should I also add in a line that says (went back to school)? I feel like that’s just replacing one red flag with another. Although my education is all listed on most of my resumes, I feel like pointing it out in an unusual place just highlights the fact that it’s been so long since I was in the program (5 years) and that I haven’t turned that into a career either (like my other degree)?

    How do you address a gap when the truth is that you couldn’t find a job?

    Do you think this advice is best ignored by someone who wasn’t caring for a family member or on medical leave.

    1. Stephanie*

      Hmmmm, I think you’d be better off talking about it positively–that is, things you’ve done in the meantime. If you just mention you have a gap, that’s awkward.

      1. Anx*

        I think I’ll just list the regular chronological order. The negative part of this is there are gaps where I’m neither in class nor volunteering. I spent months to years looking for survival type jobs and didn’t want to commit to anything knowing I’d leave as soon as I got a job.

    2. Sospeso*

      I don’t know that’d I address it in the resume. It sounds like you’re already including volunteer work and internships there, though, which is great. If you were learning and committing your time through those activities during the gap you mentioned, that would show on your resume.

      If you are concerned that the gap stands out so much on your resume it will immediately eliminate you as a candidate without an explanation, I *do* think I’d make an extremely brief mention of it in your cover letter by focusing on how your additional education will make you a great candidate for the position. As Stephanie said, don’t frame it as something that’s missing; frame is as added value. Even unrelated areas of study may be applicable because some of the skills you learned are likely transferable. Good luck – you’ll get there!

  164. Lost At Work*

    Remember me from a few weeks ago? Well I met with a recruiter today…he was kind of interesting. I have no idea if he’ll actually find me work.

    He looked at my resume and was all well you can’t find work because you don’t have any experience you just have a college degree (well duh sherlock I was able to figure that out on my own). Then he was annoyed that I haven’t worked in 6 months and had a huge gap on my resume…other than freelance work that is unrelated to my degree. BLAH. Looking for work is rough.

    1. Intern*

      I am having trouble with that too. Right now I am interning for free for a company that I started at in August. I interned there all semester while my boss kept telling me she would have a job for me in December when I would be graduating from my masters program. When December came I did not have an offer and I was forced to move away and live with family since I have no job. My boss asked me if I would consider staying and sleeping on a friends sofa so I could continue to intern for free…

      I am still interning for my boss remotely while I continue to apply for jobs but I am frustrated because she seems annoyed when I don’t answer her right away since I am doing random jobs on the side to get by.While I was working in the office I was there about 30 hours a week with no pay and was treated like an employee and my boss would even tell people that I was a manger when I was just an intern just so she would look better and the company would look better if I needed to talk to someone. Do you think I should continue to intern for her so there is no gap on my resume or should I completely quit to dedicate full time to applying for jobs? I am worried about not getting a good reference if I quit.

      1. Lizzie*

        Your boss at the internship sounds…um…let’s go with “difficult.” When thinking about your decision to quit, I think there are a few questions you need to consider.

        1. Are you enjoying the work at the internship enough that you want to keep working there?
        2. Are you learning new things/gaining new skills at the internship?
        3. Can you support yourself financially and/or dedicate sufficient time to seeking gainful employment while continuing to work at the internship?

        Frankly, if I were in your shoes, I wouldn’t continue unless the answer to all three questions was yes.

  165. pollyannanomous*

    Feeling furious today. X sent an e-mail that may not have been meant quite that way, but part of it was untrue and basically insulted me on a professional level. The e-mail went to a number of people. Fortunately, my supervisor knows that this was untrue (I talked to him, and my supervisor assured me that my supervisor knew this already). This wasn’t even the main point of X’s e-mail, but it felt like a personal attack on my work ethics/ability/drive. I have to keep reminding myself that this isn’t going to affect my professionally, and that it undermines X’s credibility, but I’m still feeling pretty steamed.

    Not really asking a question, just needed to vent a little. I keep feeling like there was no reason for X to do that. Maybe X even thinks this is true, although it would take a pretty skewed (maybe very stressed) perspective to think so.

    I work in a very functional workplace, and I’m helpful and nice to people, so I am not used to people lying about me. It really pushed my buttons.

    It’s frustrating that there’s not much I can do about it. I know my supervisor knows it’s not true, so really, there isn’t much I need to do about it. I want to tell X that X isn’t fooling anyone by saying that, and what X did is not OK. But that would be counterproductive. Offending X (with honesty) would not be even a little bit helpful, and it would almost certainly make things worse. X might not even really understand how what X said came across.

    Sooner or later, if X does this a lot, this will come back to X. Then again, maybe X was just having a bad day and had completely lost perspective. Or maybe X has no problem grossly exaggerating (to say the least) if it makes other people look bad and makes X think X looks better.

    I’ve got to remember that it wasn’t the main point of the e-mail, and most people who read it might not even pick up on that part. I do not understand why X did this. It was unnecessary and untrue.

    I keep reminding myself that the only thing to do at this point is to remain professional, treat X courteously, work hard, and avoid drama. My inner child wants to scream, kick, and hit inanimate objects, but the part of me everyone sees will keep acting like an adult with good self control. Even though I’m still really angry about it.

    1. AnotherFed*

      That sucks! I understand this problem, and the urge to take someone down a notch when they’re both wrong and a jerk, especially when it seems like they are lying about you. However, you’re totally right about having to remain professional and avoid drama, to the point of ignoring the incident. It might not have been an intentional insult, it might have been directed at someone else, or it might just be that your coworker is a jerk, but all people see is you behaving professionally and not looking the least bit threatened by the jerk, your reputation will only benefit.

      1. pollyannanomous*

        Thanks, AnotherFed. It mentioned me and someone else by name, but it might not have been an intentional insult as much as a gross exaggeration to make a point. Fortunately, my supervisors are not impressed by gross exaggerations or inaccuracies.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      It’s bad advice but it’s nice to contemplate hitting reply to all and saying “X please schedule an appointment with me, I think we need to talk.”

      Big picture perspective, there are a few people like X in the world. Intelligent, hard working people know this and are prepared for Xs. They know how to handle that. It’s hard, but sit back and watch the empathy roll in. Give folks credit for recognizing a jerk when they see one.Know that you can say nothing and come out of this situation in a good spot.

    3. Sospeso*

      What a poopy situation/coworker!

      “I keep reminding myself that the only thing to do at this point is to remain professional, treat X courteously, work hard, and avoid drama. My inner child wants to scream, kick, and hit inanimate objects, but the part of me everyone sees will keep acting like an adult with good self control. Even though I’m still really angry about it.”

      This, yes. Although it would feel good to indulge that inner child (and I hope it feels good to vent about it a bit on AAM!), you know that ultimately avoiding the drama is the way to go. You’ve done a great job recognizing what a jerk X is… and as Not So NewReader says, many of your colleagues will likely recognize that, too.

  166. SeekingGoodTherapist*

    I started seeing a therapist about four months ago to work out some issues. I have a medium high profile position (my accomplishments are frequently featured in the media, but I’m not a politician or government official or anything) and a lot of what is discussed in therapy is work related. This is the second therapist I’ve seen and I find her “ok” but not amazing. The problem is that she occasionally TALKS ABOUT HER OTHER CLIENTS in our sessions!!! She never mentions names, but she’ll go “Oh, that is similar to my other client who is a teacher and is of x race and is also going through xyz because when she was a little girl she abc and so xyz happened.” Like…WHAAAATTT?!! It’s happened on at least two occasions in the last four months (and the last incident occurred during our last session). It’s really jarring to me because I think to myself, “My God–I wonder if she talks about my issues to her other clients and even her friends since she’s that open?” I also am rattled because …I talk a lot about my career and a lot of that is covered in some press in some form or fashion. I was wondering about opinions on this since I am fairly new to therapy (this is only the second therapist I’ve seen–the first one closed her practice and moved to a new field)?? Oddly enough–part of why I go to therapy is because I often cut people off when I deem them to be toxic, so I’m also wondering if I’m being too ….over the top with this and this is just a manifestation of my pathology of dealing with people–cutting off my therapist???? Is it normal for therapists to talk about clients during sessions though?

    And by the way, can anyone recommend a really good therapist in the NYC area (Manhattan)?? My issues are mostly inter-personal family and work related (dealing with jealousy, betrayal). I have Oxford insurance so one of the reasons I’ve even stuck with this therapist this long is because she takes my insurance.

    1. AnotherFed*

      That’d be a deal breaker as far as I was concerned, even if she was otherwise awesome, which it sounds like she isn’t. Time for a new one!

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Ask her. It’s a legitimate question. Tell her that you don’t want to be used as an example for other people in their therapy sessions.
      I have had counselors or practitioners mention other people’s stories. It never bother me because of the way it was done. The story was to show me something/teach me something. Look at the way she does it. Do her stories have a point that is helpful to you? Or are her stories more about “look how great I am helping this pooooor person over here.”

      OTH, if you just don’t click with her then you may want to move on and skip this step.

  167. AnonNervous*

    Help! My boss’ boss is crazy! I’ve been in my job for a year and doing great work. I work a lot with outside partners (as part of my job) and they have consistently praised my work. Also, my work has gotten a low of attention because people in the field now often come to me after hearing about it. My problem is the attitude of my boss’ boss has suddenly changed. Here’s the dynamics–my boss is very hands off and kinda lazy…I think she likes having me because she doesn’t need to supervise me a lot since I know the layout of the land well. However HER boss is a micromanager. Only recently has her boss (the big boss) started micromanaging me–now every email I send my boss, I must copy HER boss as well. Any little request i have, I must copy her boss. They get along–I believe because my boss is a serious suckup and the big boss likes people to kiss her ass, which my boss does. I honestly have NO idea why the big boss’ attitude has changed towards me to the point of where she is micromanaging me. It literally happened overnight. The ONLY thing I can think of is at one point, she emailed me and I responded and clarified something about my position and she emailed me back a snide response…but I mean it was SO FRIGGIN MINOR that I’m not sure that’s it. Now it’s clear she has a personal problem with me because she makes a mountain out of a mohill—for example, once she emailed me a question and I responded PROFESSIONALLY and she then responded “I was only asking a question”—so I guess she wanted me to have this “Hi, How are you today? Thanks for emailing me. Your answer is so and so. Have a nice day’ and my email was very curt and short–which she then interpreted in her own silly head as rude.

    This is the second job I’ve had where I have to deal with a boss who doesn’t like me personally, but I do great work. I asked around and apparently she’s had falling outs with a lot of past employees in a very short amount of time. I even asked about a promotion but was given a really wishy washy answer. I have a colleague who has less experience than me and is fairly new and they love him (I suspect because he is new and because his personality is very chill) but he doesn’t pull his weight. As a result, my boss and her boss give me a lot of extra work even though my colleague and I have the same title. I feel like they are not going to promote me when I’ve been going a great job AND they are giving me extra work so….why stay? However, I need advice on being able to get a good reference after I leave because I damn well deserve it based on my work. I am so tired of working places and doing a bang up job, but not getting good references because of an insecure, jealous female manager. So I want to avoid that with this job–any advice???

    1. AnonNervous*

      I should also add that I find it HIGHLY STRANGE that the big boss has this title and a lot of responsibilities but zooms in on the minutia of my job and what I’m doing–always trying to find out where I’m going, where I’m vacationing, my lipstick color. Literally…EVERY SINGLE THING I DO…she is on top of me. Like…DON’T YOU HAVE A COMPANY TO LEAD???

    2. fposte*

      Then I’d just cc: her on emails, and I’d add courtesy headings and signoffs–in a lot of places, that’s a cultural thing and without them you’d be causing friction. Yes, she’s a micromanager at a crazy level, but those aren’t difficult things to do to feed the beast, and you’re leaving soon anyway.

      And I’d ease up on the sexism. For one thing, your male manager is as much the source of the problem as the female manager here, and for another, it’s going to lead to the kind of friction you’re hoping to avoid in future.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Breathe. Seriously.
      Please try to calm down.
      The two of you maybe caught in a cycle where she believes that upset people need to be watched closely and the more she watches you the more upset you get. Maybe if you calm down a bit she will, too.
      If you are doing good work, then the good work should speak for itself.

      Since this is relatively new, why not try talking with her. Ask her what has changed here. It could be that she is targeting your boss and not you. You just happen to be your boss’ subordinate.

      Yes, if the big boss expects things a certain way, we more or less have to do that. It does not necessarily mean we are kissing butt. It means we need to eat and have a roof over our heads.
      There is more to having a job than just being good at your job and that is not always enough to keep us employed. Alison has page after page of written proof as to how many aspects there are for keeping a job.

      So go in and ask her what problems you can address. Tell her that you are concerned because she seems to be correcting your work a lot and you want to be known as a good employee.

      I really suspect that what is going on here is not about you at all. She is building a case against your own boss.

      1. AnonNervous*

        I don’t think she is building a case against my own boss because she praises her a lot. In addition, they seem to be friends and my boss has been in her corner (big boss) before when apparently there were some difficult employee issues (before my time)…so I think she values loyalty and suck ups over people who do a good job. I thought about going to talk to her but everyone who I spoke with said that’s a bad idea, including a union person who is well aware of other issues big boss has had with other employees over the years. They all think it would make things worse because she’s a bully who, like most bullies, likes to act like a victim (“oh look what my employee did to mme”) to justify her behavior.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Okay, what does your union person think you should do? Does she think you will ride this out or does she think you have a on-going problem?
          Is there another department you could transfer to?
          If you are in the union or at least working under union rules, take the time to review your union handbook. Keep that fresh in your head. You never know when an issue might come up that is protected by the union. People like this have new and inventive ways of violating union contract. I can’t explain that one, it’s too identifying. But just keep the union agreements fresh in your head. Basically, her micromanagement is preventing you from doing your job. Start thinking about it that way as you look over the union agreement.
          And yeah, maybe it is time to start looking around before you get more PTSD than you have already. A person who feels they have options also feels that they have more control over their situation.

  168. Bunny*

    I just applied for a vacancy online at one of those websites that lots of employers and agencies all post to together. It was advertised with a specific wage not much higher than minimum wage here (£7.50 ph) and I stated in my application that I am currently working a fixed-term temporary contract that is due to end soon. Given this, I’m a bit confused by the response I’ve received – mid-afternoon on a Saturday, from the agency with the vacancy. This is word for word the email I’ve received:

    “O
    Hi
    Please can you answer a few question’s
    Your salary expectations?
    Why you want to leave current role?Notice period if any?
    Why you are interested in the role?
    Regards”

    Now, this is an established agency I’ve seen about the place before – they have real offices and everything in town. On the one hand I don’t want to turn away what could be ongoing possibilities for work. On the other, this is a really unprofessional email that seems barely associated with the vacancy I applied for or my actual application, which doesn’t bode well for the agency as an organisation in general. It’s also weird to receive a response at 6pm on a Saturday, at least over here, as most agencies don’t handle applications outside of normal office hours.

    Mainly I want to check – how should I reply to this? How do I cover salary expectations for a role with a set hourly wage without coming across as pissy? Because my honest response would have to be that I would expect a salary to match that posted in the ad. And do I reiterate the whole thing about my temp contract ending as a means of answering the next two questions? Or do I ignore the 3/4 questions and just answer the one that, while I did answer in my cover letter, I could still probably go into more depth on?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      This does not look professional at all. Does this agency have a good reputation? Can you ask for an appointment in person? That might make a difference or at least help you to firm up your opinion of them.

      1. Bunny*

        Hmm, that might be a good idea actually. My main concern is I’m working full time until the contract ends, and I’d be loathe to take time out of a working day on a visit to an agency that looks dodgy already – I’d rather save that time for interviews. Maybe I’ll try to call them, though.

  169. PoorDecisions101*

    I’m finding it hard for traction to get anything done professionally or personally, mainly due to not getting enough sleep from being stressed out from work and I suppose posting here is a form of procrastination. I’m really grateful to Alison and everyone at AAM for their great advice.

    I have an interview on Monday as a national manager for one of the biggest companies in Australia, which I feel underqualified for and facing stiff competition. I’m constantly wavering between being on top of the world, and being down in the dumps. I feel like in six months I’ll be doing great in that new fantastic job, or I’ll have been fired and forced to move back in with my parents once my savings run out.

    I shouldn’t put the brakes on my job search yet until I get an offer from somewhere. I want to quit my current role so badly, but financially it’s a lot better for me if I wait till I’m pushed out, or get something better. I also feel sort of bad for complaining when there’s a lot of contractors at my current company who aren’t sure whether their contracts will be renewed who would kill for my position.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I’ve done that up and down thing with a job, doing great or just got fired.
      It’s good to remember that those are two extremes. And most of the time, life does not go to extremes. Reality is that you could be in a great new job, bumping along doing your best each day. Some people will think you are the greatest thing to happen and others can’t wait to see you leave. This is closer to reality.
      Sleep is a big deal. If we do not get enough rest it is hard to keep believing in ourselves. Lack of sleep weakens us at our very core. Google tips for a good night’s sleep. See how many of the tips you can implement for yourself. I would say the number one thing to do is to correct yourself as you mull over the day’s events. Tell yourself, “Bed time is a no fly zone for these thoughts. I will deal with it in the morning,” At my worst times, I made myself make lists of things I was grateful for. That was the only thoughts I allowed myself to have. If I went off track, I corrected and got back on track.

      1. PoorDecisions101*

        Thanks for your kind words.

        You’re right that extremes are unlikely. I still have that image in my head of being unemployed and trying to get by selling zombie teddy bears put together from bits of dolls scrounged fron op shops on Etsy, while living with my parents.

        From what I just wrote I think I really do need to try harder on the sleep front.

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