open thread – July 10, 2015

by Alison Green on July 10, 2015

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

{ 1,473 comments }

{ 1,473 comments… read them below }

  1. LoveWins*

    This may be considered too political and controversial for the Friday Open Thread but I really am curious as to how this fits in the workplace.

    So as most of you know, the Supreme Court of the United States legalized same-sex marriage across the whole country a couple weeks ago. Since then, there are plenty who say it conflicts with their religious beliefs and are opposed to it. What gets my attention is the wave of stories of government workers refusing to give marriage licenses to same-sex couples, citing their religious beliefs. Some have even quit over it, which is fine, that’s their right to give up their livelihoods for their beliefs.

    But the ones who stay in their positions and simply refuse. Can they do that, even with the defense of religion? Obviously, you can’t discriminate in the workplace because of religion, but they’re refusing to do their jobs, hell even refusing to follow the new law.

    I work for the government. Though I’m in a position where I don’t have much interaction with the public and don’t have the opportunity to find something to object to in order to refuse to help them, but I think if I stopped doing my job for any reason, I’d be fired.

    So thoughts on this?

    1. Adam*

      I’m no expert on the law, but I think if you work for the government and provide any sort of service to same-sex couples I don’t think you’d ever be able to refuse on the grounds of your religion. How big a deal it turns into is going to depend on the workplace and the makeup of the staff as well as the member of the public seeking service and their motivation and willingness to speak out about it. Odds are said person isn’t the only one in the office at the time so a same-sex couple seeking assistance can get it from a different staff member, but if they ever were the only person I don’t see how they could refuse without inviting legal action.

    2. CayceP*

      I also work in government, and we had a staffer who made noises about it being against his religion to perform same-sex marriages. Within the hour, he was told to comply or find work elsewhere. The fact that he had married thousands of already-divorced couples, couples who had openly admitted only getting married for the insurance, etc, didn’t help his case much either.

      1. Future Analyst*

        Yeah, your last sentence is what really bugs me about people who suddenly claim things are against their religion. I’m not religious, but I’ve read the Bible front to back, and there’s a hell of a lot of rules in there that people conveniently disregard.

        3. Relosa*

          Not to mention the a major point of Christianity is that Jesus died to more or etch-a-sketch our need to obey Leviticus…but you know, logic.

      2. Ad Astra*

        Yep, that last sentence is the kicker for me. Government employees aren’t charged with evaluating whether two people should get married. Their job is to determine whether they meet the legal requirements to get married, and the Supremes say same-sex couples qualify. Even if homosexuality and same-sex marriage are against your religion, issuing those people a marriage license or marrying them in court is not. Just like if divorce is against your religion, granting a qualifying couple a legal divorce is not against your religion.

        Bigots tried to use their religion as a defense when interracial marriage was legalized, too. It’s a bogus argument, and history won’t treat it very kindly.

        1. Ezri*

          The problem is that those religious people opposing SCOTUS’s decision are saying that civil marriages violate their religion, but that doesn’t make any sense to me. Just because Christian marriages are usually accompanied by a legal wedding license doesn’t mean they have to be. You can get ‘married’ in the eyes of a church and not be considered married by the government. Just like you can get married by the government and not be considered married to a church. They aren’t the same thing.

          But yeah, the situation described by the OP warrants a firing to me – not because of the person’s religious beliefs, but because they are refusing to do a required aspect of their job (and the law). The officials in question are free to resign if they feel they cannot perform that service.

          1. oldfashionedlovesong*

            This is a real sticking point for me. A common argument popping up on my Facebook feed (ugh) is that “marriages are the domain of the church and not the government”.

            Well, first of all: that’s not true of all religions. My faith, the faith of my family, regards marriage as a purely secular event. Marriages do not take place in our houses of worship, and they are not officiated (or attended!) by our religious leaders. Scriptural passages may be read aloud by family elders during our very elaborate, cultural ritual-laden wedding ceremonies, but they are more like blessings of the couple and their life together than any sacrament binding the marriage. So… does this mean our marriages don’t count in the eyes of people who consider marriage the domain of the church?

            And second of all: the fact is that in the US there are real legal and financial benefits bestowed upon married couples that may not be available to those in civil partnerships, or that civil partners have to go through long, expensive legal battles to obtain, or that are available to differing degrees depending on your state of residence. That’s why we need a single definition of marriage: equitable treatment.

            1. BRR*

              Exactly, tell them to explain to me the extra thousand I got in my refund filing as married instead of single.

      3. Artemesia*

        This whole ‘religious freedom’ thing is just a strategy of the right wing to legalize bigotry by pretending it is about religion. Heck if I have a restaurant in Charleston and don’t want to serve blacks back in 1964, should I be able to make that a religious position? That is the strategy here and it extends beyond gay issues — it is the right wing trying to make equality and civil rights somehow oppressive to fundamentalist Christians. Same deal with pharmacists who ‘object to’ birth control.

        It is grotesque and I hope the courts beat it back; no one should have a job where they refuse to serve people who need the services for discriminatory reasons.

      4. The IT Manager*

        That’s the grand flaw in the religious argument. The Bible is just as clear that premarital sex and adultery is just as much a sin as homosexuality yet I have yet to hear of anyone refusing to serve un-married heterosexual couple because it is against their religion. These people might fervently believe that they oppose same sex marriage because they are opposed to sin but it is really because they fear or hate the other.

        As for religion, the Catholic* Church/priests have always had the right refuse to marry people. People getting married in a church must meet certain requirements: at least one member must be Catholic, they must attend pre-marital counseling with the priest, they cannot be legally divorced (only an annulment of a previous Catholic approved marriage makes one unencumbered for another Catholic marriage), and I think they have to agree to raise any children that result from the marriage as Catholics. So this legal ruling changes nothing for religions. The courthouse marriage that wasn’t recognized by the Catholic Church before as a Catholic marriage still won’t be a marriage as far as the Church is concerned. So that government official should just get to issuing marriage licenses.

        * I’m Catholic so it is what I know, but I assume other religions also have the right to refuse couples that they do not approve of for some reason.

        1. LJL*

          This is exactly the argument that I used. My husband is Catholic; I”m not. We got married in my church and would not have had any rationale to sue the Catholic church for not marrying us. We could have also got married civilly at the courthouse.

        2. Elizabeth West*

          Exactly, and the kicker is this: the priest can refuse to perform a Catholic wedding, but he cannot stop the couple from going to the courthouse and getting a marriage license. And he should not be able to.

          If you make marriage a legal status under the law and attach legal conditions to it, then it has to be the same for every person who can legally enter into it. Religion is a personal choice that has nothing to do with law. The people trying to claim it violates their Constitutional rights are ignoring the fact that the Constitution says you can’t legislate religious beliefs. That cuts it out of the equation right there.

        3. asteramella*

          All religious leaders (not just Catholic) have the right to refuse to marry people for any reason. Government employees do not.

    4. Kelly L.*

      My guess is that some may be able to get away with it for at least a while, if their immediate supervisors are sympathetic. Long term, I doubt it.

    5. Malissa*

      I think in this case asking for a transfer out of the licensing office would be a good religious accommodation. Given that the people who issue the licenses are usually classified as clerical workers they are the ones with the best ability to transfer to another department where they don’t have to do things that are against their beliefs.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Good luck with that, though; there might not be a place to transfer them to, which could open up a whole other can of worms for them to make claims about. I would wonder what else they’re going to object to even if you could.

        The problem with these people is that they want everything to be fair for them but they don’t give a rat’s ass if it’s fair for anybody else.

      2. Treena*

        But where does it end? Every office a clerk could work in would be serving the gay population. This opens up the possibility that they don’t have to serve them in any capacity because Religion.

    6. some1*

      From what I understand, the only to force the hand on this is for the couples to sue their county. That means taxpayer money will be used to defend a position that they will probably lose, which I think is a horrible use of resources.
      *IANAL*

      1. Anonymousterical*

        The insurance company who insures the county covers legal costs (attorneys, court fees, all of it), unless the insurance companies denies coverage. The taxpayers just help pay for insurance. IANAL but I used to be an insurance defense paralegal. :)

        1. some1*

          True, I worked for a City that was self-insured, so I forget that all govt entities aren’t

    7. fposte*

      Functionally speaking, they can do that until somebody fires them over it. Of course there are various state-level kerfuffles about legal exemptions that would protect, etc., which will work their way through the courts, but ultimately it comes down to not whether it’s illegal but whether there’s somebody with firing power who chooses to do something about it. Same as with other forms of discrimination–plenty of people do it even when it’s illegal.

    8. Jerzy*

      As a former government worker, there are, unfortunately, a lot of workers in the public realm have a “that’s not my job attitude” about ANYTHING not specifically in their job description. I think, for some, at least, the idea of being able to pick and choose what you do is an open option.

      However, if issuing marriage licenses IS explicitly part of your duties and you refuse to do it, you are being derelict in your duties, and can, and should be penalized/fired for that.

      Freedom of religion means you can practice your religion without it being infringed upon by the state, but it does not mean you get to infringe upon the rights of others.

    9. Retail Lifer*

      They’d be fired or reprimanded if they refused to issue a license to an African American couple or a Catholic couple. I don’t see how this is any different except for the fact that being gay is (not yet) a protected class.

      1. fposte*

        They should be, but in practice, that’s far from a certainty. Somebody would have to know, for one; somebody would have to make a complaint; somebody would have to act on that complaint.

    10. oldfashionedlovesong*

      I think — or rather I hope– that like so much, it would come down to interpretation. So if someone were fired over this, the firing wouldn’t be because of their religious belief, the firing would be because they refused to fulfill the essential duties of their position mandated by law, and subsequently refused to leave that position. (That someone will then probably spend the rest of their life saying the government fired them because they’re religious, but that would just not be factually correct, even if that’s what they sincerely believe or feel.)

      I think it is worth considering parallel hypotheticals: what if someone refuses to give a marriage license to an interracial couple, or an infertile heterosexual couple (since one common argument against gay marriage is that the purpose of marriage is procreation)? What should happen to that employee?

      1. Elizabeth West*

        If you would fire them for not doing their job, then the outcome should be the same. They’re not doing what you hired them to do. It doesn’t matter why they disagree with the couple’s marriage; their job is to issue licenses to people who are legally allowed to get married. The end.

    11. Mike C.*

      No they can’t, and it’s only a matter of time before a federal court finds them in contempt. Furthermore, if it’s against your religion to perform a primary function of your job, then you need to find a new one especially when that job is fulfilling the civil rights of others.

      2. Ineloquent*

        For the record, as a mormon I find it very interesting to think abouth this whole issue. My personal beliefs do not mirror my religion’s stance in this regard – I personally believe in man’s free agency and the right to make choices, which means that they need the legal freedom to do as they will and make the laws that they desire to make. Also, I’m straight so it doesn’t in any way directly affect my life. But the uproar! It’s astonishing and offensive to me! Guys, people have pointed it here already, but just because homosexual marriage is legal now does not mean that Mormons will have to allow them to happen in their temples or whatnot. Legally recognized marriage is totally different from the religious sacrament of marriage, and this ruling does not affect the latter – just because some FLDS guy says that his marraige to 5 women is valid does not mean that the government agrees. Furthermore, Article of Faith #12 is regarded as scripture and is a central tenet of our faith: We follow the law. This is the law – we must obey it. And why the crap do we have to be slinging around so much bloody hate and vitrol? What happened to love one another?

        Rant over, thanks for listening. This has been bugging me since the bishop’s son in law got up in church and started spewing bigoted crap everywhere.

    12. Kassy*

      I live in Missouri. A couple of our judges are refusing to marry anyone in light of the ruling. The AP article in our local paper says this:
      “While officials responsible for issuing marriage licenses must grant them to same-sex couples after last month’s Supreme Court decision, Missouri judges have the option to perform weddings, although codes guiding judicial conduct prohibit them from discriminating.”

      So no, I don’t think there’s much choice in the matter at this point for clerks. Ours waited a while on updated forms that didn’t say “husband” and “wife,” but they are issuing them now.

      1. Lucky*

        Only slightly related, but when I was a law clerk for a judge in a Washington superior court, the judges were allowed each to decide whether or not to perform marriages, full stop. This was before we had marriage equality here, it was simply a choice of convenience or preference of the judges — some loved to do weddings (seriously, two of them made it clear to all the law clerks that they would marry anyone, anytime – just a couple of true romantics) and some saw it as a hassle. But, I have no idea if that policy changes in 2012.

        On the other hand, our judges also performed adoption finalizations, and it was an open secret within the court that one judge would not finalize adoptions by same sex couples. Since these were scheduled in advance on a single weekly calendar, it was easy to shift those adoptions to a different judge with no inconvenience to the parties. Also, adoption hearings were the best, so stuffy conservative jerk judge (not a judge anymore btw) missed out on the only calendar that guaranteed that all parties would walk out of the courtroom smiling.

        1. fposte*

          My dad was an adoption lawyer; I grew up on tales on judges that loved adoption hearings and had chats with the kids.

          But I think the judges’ discretion to perform weddings or not isn’t going to hold up under the law if they selectively opt out based on illegal discrimination. A few diehards will likely quit officiating at weddings, period, rather than be told what to do, and I’d just as soon they did that rather than ruin somebody’s wedding day.

          1. Lucky*

            Agreed, picking and choosing which type of weddings you will do won’t fly. As for the the judge who wouldn’t do adoptions, my impression was that the other judges covered for his glassbowl-ness in order to avoid a decision forcing him to do adoptions for same sex couples and ultimately ruin a lot of happy days. Maybe not legally correct, but expedient.

        2. PontoonPirate*

          I got to watch a day’s worth of National Adoption Day proceedings once; I was even tasked with handing roses to the new forever families afterwords. Not a damn dry eye in the courtroom.

    13. Apollo Warbucks*

      The law only requires reasonable accommodation from employers so I don’t think that some one would get very far in claiming a religious exemption in these circumstances.

      1. Charlotte Collins*

        I agree. I always think of it like this: when I worked in retail, I had personal/ethical objections to some of the items sold. However, as a cashier I could not refuse to ring someone up because I didn’t agree with the fact that they were buying the item. (FTR, I am not equating marriage with buying a life partner, but they are both ultimately connected to property rights, so maybe it’s more apt than I meant to be.) I still had to ring up the purchase and treat the customer like I would any other. If my objections were strong enough, I would have to ask to be placed in another position or find a new job. (This is a reason that it irks me so much when pharmacists are allowed to decide that they don’t feel like filling certain prescriptions based on moral objections (as opposed to patient health/safety) – it’s not their call. And if they didn’t want to do it, they knew that going in.)

        Also, I don’t get to decide which laws I will and won’t obey based on my religion. If that were the case, couldn’t I just start a religion that didn’t “believe” in any laws that I didn’t want to follow? (I know this is a ridiculous example, but I’ve heard plenty of ridiculous arguments the other way.)

        1. fposte*

          But there are states where it *is* legal for people to refuse to sell items based on their religious beliefs–I’m thinking of pharmacists and the morning after pill there. It’s going to be a bad precedent.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            I bet someone will delve into the difference between the government arena and the business arena. I think we are all aware of how government is not run like a business… at all.

          3. Pinkie Pie Chart*

            This makes me crazy in my head! I don’t think a pharmacist should be able to deny medication because they don’t want to give it to you. If it will interact poorly with something else you take, fine. But not personal preference. And religious exemptions are effectively personal preference.

    14. Katie the Fed*

      Do you know how many boneheaded things this government does that I don’t agree with? I don’t have the luxury of not doing my job because I think there’s a bad policy decision (cough…iraq…cough). If I object that strongly, I’m free to quit my job.

      I’m part of the executive branch. Our job is to execute policy, not make it.

      1. Natalie*

        This is my argument against the Hyde Amendment. Fine, no government funded abortions because they’re against your beliefs? I’ll take back the full 50% of my tax money that funds the military, then, thanks!

      2. Not So NewReader*

        I saw subsidized programs for teaching people with developmental disabilities how to masturbate. (The idea being it would help them to calm down.)Even with setting religious teachings to one side, I still had lots of questions about that, but no one seemed to have answers. Taxpayer dollars.

        1. Natalie*

          This is getting sort of off-topic, but I wonder if they were actually hoping to teach them to masturbate *safely* and in a socially acceptable manner. When my step mom worked with developmentally disabled women, her clients would routinely injure themselves using unsafe objects to masturbate with. She was not able to get the Catholic organization she was working for on board with buying them some safe sex toys, which is a shame IMO. Adults are going to jerk it, whether we like it or not.

          1. fallingleaves*

            Yeah, I work in the special education field and have done a fair amount of reading on sex ed for people with disabilities. It’s important to teach safe and socially acceptable practices. In addition to not using dangerous items (I read one study that listed some very cringe-inducing items), there are appropriate times and places. It’s really not sufficient to focus only on stopping public masturbation without providing appropriate alternatives. That’s just going to cause frustration which could manifest in all sorts of problematic ways. Sex drives happen and everyone should have a safe, appropriate way to address them.

    15. Anonymous Educator*

      As a Christian who (now shamefully) used to believe fervently that being gay was a sin, I call BS on this whole “I can’t marry gay people because of my religious beliefs” line of thinking. If you follow the actual beliefs of the evangelical church, in the eyes of God, one “sin” is just as bad as another (James 2:10). And do conservative evangelical Christians refuse to marry adulterers, divorcees, hypocrites, embezzlers, rapists? No, not really. If they see a female-presenting person and a male-presenting person, they’ll marry those two regardless of what “sins” those two have committed, but not gay people? Makes no sense. It is not against even conservative theology to marry two “sinners,” never mind the separation of church and state.

      1. Chickaletta*

        As another Christian, I wonder if these people are actually reading the Bible. Actually, I know they are, but they are being told how to interpret it. I know this for a fact because I used to be the conservative/evangelical type so I know exactly how this information gets planted in their heads. But I also believe that God gave us brains and hearts with the intention that we use them. Jesus actually gave us only two commandments in the New Testament: Love God and Love each other. He never told us to judge each other or treat certain people differently, if anything He always says the opposite.

        That, plus, America was founded on the basis of separation of church and state, so I really hope that any government worker who thinks they can perform their job according to their religious beliefs gets set straight. Think about it like this: if a conservative Muslim worked at the DMV, could he refuse to grant drivers licences to women if he doesn’t think women should drive? Of course not. Conservative Christians would be in an outrage. So they shouldn’t turn around and do the same type of thing.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          Yes, everything you said!

          Jesus actually gave us only two commandments in the New Testament: Love God and Love each other.

          I would actually make a stronger case that he was asked what is the greatest commandment, and those were the top two (greatest and second greatest). Judging “sinners” or refusing to marry people you dislike definitely does not rank up there in the top two (or the top ten or the top anything).

          The Sheep and the Goats parable is also a good one. Did you clothe me? Did you visit me in jail? Did you feed me? None of this “Did you refuse to marry people you thought were sinning?”

        2. Charlotte Collins*

          Also, Catholic theology does allow for a separation of secular and religious behavior. You can do something to support behavior that you consider immoral if it is a condition of employment. (So, to cite the medieval example, a servant might have to bring notes to his employer’s mistress. He is supporting the employer’s adultery even if he morally disagrees and would not commit such a thing himself.)

        3. Ezri*

          “He never told us to judge each other or treat certain people differently, if anything He always says the opposite.”

          This. This is what ticks me off. I’m a Christian, and my understanding of the Bible tells me that we are all imperfect in some way. We don’t get to point at other people and say “you are going to hell, and you aren’t”, because none of us is without sin. You are supposed to worry about yourself, and treat everyone else with respect.

          There are several modern churches that have gotten the notion that the best way to prevent people from sinning is to control their communities. That’s where we get women having to cover up so men aren’t tempted, kids being forced to only hang out with Christians, and even federal laws ‘defending’ Christian beliefs. But that doesn’t fix anything, and if anything it makes things worse because it teaches people avoidance rather than self-control.

          As an aside, I think Christians need something better than Leviticus to oppose gay marriage. My Bible is fuzzier than I’d like, but I’m pretty sure those sections of the Old Testament also ban mixed-material clothing and force menstruating women to live outside the camp while they are ‘unclean’. Not to mention that the point of all those rules wasn’t strictly moral – it was to keep that tiny, insular civilization alive long enough that Jesus could be born at the chosen time.

          1. ThursdaysGeek*

            Well, the commands about mixed materials and menstruation aren’t repeated in the New Testament. But when mentioned in the NT, it tends to be included in a list that also includes things like adultery, drunkenness, and thievery.

            Nonetheless, and in spite of all the noise, evangelical Christians aren’t a solid block of bigotry. Many of us are quietly trying to show love and respect to all, but quiet respect doesn’t usually make the news.

        4. Elizabeth West*

          But I also believe that God gave us brains and hearts with the intention that we use them. Jesus actually gave us only two commandments in the New Testament: Love God and Love each other. He never told us to judge each other or treat certain people differently, if anything He always says the opposite.

          YES YES YES YES

          Another thing they don’t get when they bring up “But murder is wrong and it’s against the law!” is that those are MORAL tenets, not religious ones. Way back before anyone had any concept of God or Christianity, people living in groups had rules. You had to in order to survive–you don’t steal food from the tribe, you don’t run around killing everybody, etc. etc. Because humans sometimes suck, of course you’re going to have some who break the rules, and then there have to be consequences. But almost every society, religious or otherwise, has some version of morality.

          1. Natalie*

            Only 2 of the ten commandments violate civil law. That’s not exactly a winning percentage.

            1. Elizabeth West*

              I’m not necessarily referring to the Ten Commandments. There are a lot of things that apply. My point is that behaving in a civilized way toward fellow humans doesn’t depend on religion.

              1. Natalie*

                Oh, sure, I guess I just jumped the commandments because that’s usually what I hear referenced.

        5. Ann Furthermore*

          Think about it like this: if a conservative Muslim worked at the DMV, could he refuse to grant drivers licences to women if he doesn’t think women should drive? Of course not. Conservative Christians would be in an outrage. So they shouldn’t turn around and do the same type of thing.

          OMG. This is such an awesome way to put it. I can’t wait to use this logic on a couple of fire-breathing evangelical types I know.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        This is kind of how I feel about the whole cake thing, or pizza thing—how the hell would you even know if the people you’re serving committed a “sin”? Granted, a gay couple might be a little bit more obvious, but come on. If you’re objecting to serving particular customers on the grounds that they’re sinners, then you might as well shut up shop, because I guaranteed EVERY one of your customers has sinned somehow.

        Even more stupid is “love the sinner; hate the sin.” That does not mean you treat someone who sinned like crap; it means you recognize that they sinned and pray for them. People are just using religion as an excuse for bigotry.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Yes, yes, yes. If you cannot pass out marriage licenses to gay people then you cannot give them to murderers, thieves, addicts etc, either. Guess what? Most of us have stolen a candy bar when we were kids (theft). Most of us have all spoken badly about someone (murder), and most of us have to have our ice cream (addiction). (Parenthesis indicate what the action could be construed as.)

          What I want to know is why single out one or several groups of people and let the rest slide? And where do we draw the line or do we just keep excluding more and more people?

          If a job requires you to do something against your religion or your beliefs than you must quit the job. It’s pretty straightforward. If you know the job requires X when you apply for it and X is against your beliefs then why, oh why, would you put in an application for that job?

          Jesus said, above all else love each other. I am not seeing a lot of love going on in some sectors.

          1. Elizabeth West*

            Agreed–and leaving religion out of it entirely, if my job asked me to do something illegal, I would probably quit also. We’ve actually discussed that on here before, I think, though I can’t recall the letter that opened the topic.

      3. asteramella*

        Not to quibble, but many of those with religious objections to same-sex marriage do not care to marry a “female-presenting person” to a “male-presenting person” if one or both of those persons are transgender. And in fact marriages between men and women have been annulled due to one partner’s transgender status, using the same reasoning: that it’s a “same-sex” wedding. Google Gwen Araujo, she was a trans woman married to a cis man whose marriage was annulled after she tried to sue for wrongful death when her husband was killed. The defense argued that she was “male” and thus their marriage was same-sex and against TX law. The court agreed.

    16. De Minimis*

      It will probably have to be done through the federal courts for some of the smaller more rural areas, similar to desegregation. In my home state they don’t seem to have any problem with continuing to waste taxpayer dollars on things that obviously unconstitutional.

      1. _ism_*

        I am very curious if there are resources enabling one to see how many same-sex marriage license have been issued in a particular locale where it wasn’t already legal in the state. Anybody?

        1. fposte*

          Possibly, but it wouldn’t be public this fast; you might have to physically go to individual counties for public records to search.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          That’s called going under the radar. I doubt too many people would be interested in having such a marriage license because they would still have to fight every inch of the way for legal protections as each situation occurred. It would be a piece of paper with nothing behind it.

        3. Turanga Leela*

          There was a bizarre situation in New Mexico a few years ago. It wasn’t clear whether the state allowed gay marriage or not (they had never authorized it, but there were no laws against it), and some local county clerks started issuing marriage licenses to same-sex counties. They effectively got marriage equality one county at a time until the state supreme court legalized it statewide.

    17. Not helpful*

      It is time to separate the legal aspect from the religious/spiritual aspect of marriage.
      First you go to a government office and fill out the paperwork and you now have a legal union of two people. This is all you need to do to be “married” in the eyes of the law.
      Then if you want/need the religious/spiritual/sacramental element you go to the pastor of your choice and have the wedding.

      1. Melissa*

        That’s already pretty much the way that it works. You do have to certify that you said some words, but it doesn’t have to be in a big religious ceremony – a justice of the peace or some other official can have you say the words in 5 minutes in front of them, sign the paperwork, then you fill out a few more papers and you’re done.

        1. TootsNYC*

          True. The only thing that combines them is that clergy members are empowered to serve as the law’s representative. They can “solemnize” the marriage and serve as the legal witness -instead of- a justice of the peace or judge.

          That’s what would change, in a true separation. The clergy would lose that power or responsibility. Interesting to think of what that might do to all the people who’ve done online things to be wedding officiants.

          1. Cath in Canada*

            I was at a friend’s wedding in London earlier this year. At one point they paused the traditional Sikh ceremony and said “we will now conduct the legally required civil ceremony”. It made me realise that this has been part of every religious marriage ceremony I’ve attended, but all the others were some version of Christian and it didn’t really stand out in the same way (the civil ceremony, at least in the UK, uses wording that’s fairly similar to standard Christian marriage ceremony wording). Combining the two into one event makes sense to me, and you can just do the civil ceremony as a stand-alone if you’re not religious, as my husband and I did at our wedding.

          2. Jen RO*

            I’m not American, and I never actually realized that a clergy member can legally marry a couple… (In my country, it goes exactly like Not helpful said.)

            1. Charlotte Collins*

              Part of this has to do with US history. In the early days, a lot of people would have had to travel quite far for any kind of official government wedding. It was a lot easier to get married by the local minister. (Or circuit preacher – this was someone who would travel around from community to community performing weddings and baptisms on a regular basis. Some towns would only see this person once or twice a year.)

        1. Mike C.*

          It’s more of an issue with how to deal with the dissolution of said union in terms of property, alimony, custody of any children, inheritance and so on. I’m not saying it’s impossible, but holy cow are you talking about a sticky legal situation.

    19. _ism_*

      I bet we’ll be seeing a lot of local courts having to update and expand these job descriptions to make it absolutely clear this is the law and this is the job. (I don’t know, maybe they already are?)

    20. pony tailed wonder*

      In the 90’s, we had a local pharmacist in our town refuse to issue Plan B to a teen girl who had been gang raped and the pharmacist thought it was God’s will that a child be born. I am through with the kind of thinking that if you serve the public you can pick and choose which public you want to deal with.

        1. pony tailed wonder*

          I wish I could. But people protested in front of that pharmacy for quite a while and the Walgreens across the street from it got a lot of transferred prescriptions. People have long memories in this town and when you drive down the street and see both businesses across the street from one another, the Walgreens parking lot is always fuller than the other.

      3. Private vs. Public*

        That is a private business, not government. Stupid business move, but that is his prerogative.

        2. Anonsie*

          There are a lot of legal regulations for those of us in healthcare professions, however, about what we are required or forbidden to do. On top of that are the professional standards, which are not the government directly but do go back to legal regulations (such as licensing). The question when these pharmacy cases come up is, if it’s not illegal to decline to fill such a prescription, should it be illegal? Does it violate the professional standards to which a pharmacist is held, and by extension their legal ability to be in the profession?

        3. Anna*

          And in some places if you are a business open to the public, whether or not you’re privately owned, you are required to serve the public without discrimination. See the bakery owners in Oregon who refused to bake a cake for a same-sex wedding. They broke the law by refusing to do business with them and suffered the consequences.

    21. Nerdling*

      In some places, county clerk is an elected position. This means they can be held in contempt, they can be sued, they can resign, but they cannot be fired, as such. They can be impeached by the legislature, but I don’t see that happening in our state.

      One county clerk in our state wants the governor to call a special session of the legislature for bills to be written regarding the issue. The governor declined due to the massive costs to taxpayers that would be involved. Regarding the $60K per DAY that taxpayers would be footing the bill for in a special session, the county clerk is quoted as saying, “What cost do you put on freedom?” As a steward of federal taxpayer money, color me unimpressed with his fiduciary sense.

      1. OfficePrincess*

        “What cost do you put on freedom?” Well, we can give people the freedom to be treated equally without spending money or we could spend and absurd amount of money to take the freedom away. So it sounds like freedom is going to end up pretty darn cheap, isn’t it?

        1. Nerdling*

          Sad thing is that I think the clerk wouldn’t be ousted by a recall vote, same as I don’t think the legislature would move to impeach. Although that may be my current lack of faith in humanity speaking.

    23. Ranting Atheist*

      A perspective on this behavior:

      I’m an Atheist. My religious beliefs are so opposed to the religious beliefs of *any other* religion that there’s just no contest. I reject religion entirely. I embrace the worst possible sin: I violate the First Commandment by saying that I believe there is no God. When my sins are compared to a Christian lesbian or gay, I don’t see how there can be any comparison. By Christian standards (and, indeed, the tenants of the vast majority of organized religions) being an atheist is far worse than being gay.

      I’m married. I got married because it gives me and my spouse certain government benefits.
      I don’t care about the social aspect of it, and lived “in sin” with my now-husband for about 10 years before marrying him. We married when it because more of a potential financial benefit for both of us than a potential financial loss. Obviously, as an Atheist, I don’t care about the religious-sacrament aspect of marriage at all (neither does my husband). My marriage has nothing to do whatsoever with religion. I’m basically an unbeliever taking mercenary financial advantage of a program the government instituted (in part) to promote a certain lifestyle and set of religious beliefs, without actually following that lifestyle (I am not having kids, and am in fact sterilized) or the associated religious beliefs about it being a sacrament.

      There are no government clerks refusing to hand out marriage licenses to (heterosexual) sterile Atheists. There’s no checkbox you’re required to fill out on the marriage forms about ability to have children, nor belief in a religion. To me, that says: either the government clerks refusing licenses to gays and lesbians are appalling ignorant of their own religion and ought to be refusing many other “objectionable” marriages, like mine. Or, those government clerks are using the fig leaf of religion to try to defend their non-religious hatred of gays and lesbians.

      In either case, the associated religions ought to be ashamed. Either they’ve profoundly failed to instill their values in these clerks so that they recognize all the “unacceptable” forms of marriage that they thing should be blocked. Or they’re being used as a shield for repulsive behavior.

      1. TootsNYC*

        I actually don’t think of marriage as a religious institution so much as a societal one.
        The idea of property and inheritances; providing support for minors; etc. Even a completely athetistic society would have a purpose for marriage.

        They might not wrap it in morality (though they might as well–I don’t think atheism rejects all morals; breaking a promise is frowned on by the atheists I know, so the idea behind having a covenant of fidelity with a spouse is not automatically religious).

        But they have a use for it.

    24. AE*

      The Religion Clause Blog covers cases relating to this issue. Whether you could be fired depends on several factors, even if it’s a government job.

      Mainly, if there are other people who could fill in without undue hardship to the unit, then the employer should accommodate the request not to do the task. Considering that after the first year or two of legalization, gay marriages would account for only about 5% of the marriage licensing, it would be a stretch to say that it would be an undue hardship on coworkers.

      If there aren’t other people who could fill in, then the way that the task and objection are communicated would come into play and the legality of firing the person would depend on the specifics and the evidence presented.

    25. Melissa*

      My thoughts are unrelated to the legality of the issue, but more from a moral/logical standpoint. I grew up Christian, and most of the most vocal on this issue are Christian. First of all, whether Christianity actually prohibits/sanctions same-sex sexual behavior is debatable – there are two vague verses thrown around that are interpreted by some in a way to say that it does, but many Christians disagree on that. I think that is reason alone to not allow people to refuse to do their jobs on the basis of “religious belief.”

      Still, let’s even say that someone has a sincerely-held religious belief that same-sex sexual behavior and marriage is a sin/wrong/whatever. First of all, there’s nothing in Christianity that prevents people from associating with others who are suspected of committing sins. Jesus hung out with prostitutes and tax collectors (usually guilty of usury, back in the day) and all kinds of sinners all the time. If one doesn’t believe in same-sex marriage, they don’t have to get married, but there’s nothing in Christianity that tells them they can’t hang out with others who get married or participate in marrying a same-sex couple or even just issuing the license in the course of their jobs.

      The other thing is that Christians service other kinds of sinners all the time. The Bible DOES explicitly say that certain sins aren’t worse than other sins (I think Catholics do have a traditional of different levels of sin, but Protestants don’t in theory, although in practice of course they do). I’ve never heard of Protestant judges refusing to marry people who have been divorced already, or a cake baker asking people if they committed fornication or adultery before they got married and refusing to marry them, or other officials refusing to marry people who have lied or stolen or coveted their neighbor’s possessions or anything else. This is the ONLY sin that people seem to be willing to refuse to do their jobs over, and I think that’s hypocritical. In that case it becomes clear that it’s not about the religious belief, but it’s about the personal/moral conviction that 1) one has the right to judge and 2) one has judged this “sin” to be worse than all others and worthy of rejecting people. But God definitely said don’t judge unless you want to be judged harshly too.

      But even beyond all of that, I don’t think that people have the right to use their religion to discriminate against other people. Your right to practice your religious beliefs should stop when it materially affects someone else.

      1. AE*

        Yup, they have a knee-jerk reaction of revulsion at the idea of having sex with someone of their sex, then try to find a justification for that reaction… then demonize anyone who doesn’t find it revolting because that would mean they might be wrong, and if they’re wrong about one thing, could they be wrong about everything?

        Black-and-white thinking is a hallmark of fundamentalism and it’s very destructive.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        A Catholic priest told a friend that she could not get married in white because no one is virgin anymore when they marry. White gowns are for virgins.

        I think it’s more like he would not be performing wedding ceremonies if he could only marry virgins, so he had to come up with something/anything to make his little point.

      3. TootsNYC*

        Jesus hung out with prostitutes and tax collectors (usually guilty of usury, back in the day) and all kinds of sinners all the time.

        One thing about this–He called them to repentance. He didn’t encourage and condone their sin.

        1. CA Admin*

          Yes, He did. But He also told us not to judge one another. He can call them to repentance, but we cannot. That’s not our job, it’s His.

            1. Steve G*

              I have to agree with TootsNYC – the story of stone/casting/not judging was about a woman who committed adultery and the story ends with Jesus saying “go and sin no more.” He wasn’t down with the sin.

      4. Steve G*

        The flaw in your argument with the “Christians service other kinds of sinners” is that most other sins are one time or temporary (perhaps ongoing) transgressions that are not visible to other people. You don’t walk around saying “I am an adulterer” as soon as you cheat on your wife, and if you did, then maybe some of those crazy Christians would indeed deny you service as well, so I don’t think it’s fair to say homosexuality is the only “sin” conservative Christians would deny service over.

    26. Kelly*

      Some states have laws protecting pharmacists from filling prescriptions that are against their religious consciences to fill like birth control and Plan B. I lived in South Dakota and Michigan, which had that rule, for several years and never had any problems getting my birth control filled. I used corporate pharmacies and their internal HR policies may have made them fill any prescription, even it conflicted with their religious views.

      I’m not a fan of the conscience/religion exemption for certain professions (pharmacists, government workers). I worked at a grocery store after college and was still a semi-vegetarian (only eating fish). I had to handle meat products even thought at the time, I didn’t consume much meat. It was my job and I had to handle meat if I wanted a paycheck. Pharmacists and government workers are also getting a paycheck. If they don’t want to hand out birth control or issue marriage licenses to same sex couples, then they should lose their jobs and someone with more open minded views can have them. I’m sure that if it came down to their conscience or paying off their mortgage/student loans, etc, paying off the student loans would win out.

      1. AE*

        The spate of new RFRA laws (and the original one) beg to differ. No matter how silly, a sincerely held belief must be accommodated unless to do so would put undue hardship on the workplace. The government has to have a very compelling interest to override that when a government policy goes against religious belief.

        1. June*

          Agree, it is interesting that those espouse ‘choice’, want to deny others the choice to follow their conscience.

    28. asteramella*

      This is a question many people are asking and one the Supreme Court may ultimately answer.

      There are limits to using the first amendment as a defense for refusing service. Google the Piggy Park decision–stating that a restaurant owner could not justify refusing service to black people with “my religion prohibits mixing of the races.”

      The next wave of legal decisions will probably deal with this issue and with state- and federal-level protections against employment and housing discrimination.

    29. Anx*

      This is a little off tangent, but I did have some empathy for private businesses being boycotted or receiving pressure from the state to provide services related to weddings and marriages they objected to only because those very states were discriminatory. I didn’t feel like a 3-person small business needed to be held to a higher standard than the state.

  2. Former Diet Coke Addict*

    This week in My Boss Is A Lunatic: He and his family just returned from ten days in Italy. Upon his return we asked “So, did you learn any Italian?” And he said proudly “Yes! Como estas?”

    Later that day he asked “Hey! Is your dad better yet?” Well, it’s cancer, not the flu, so no. Not better yet. But thank you for asking.

    Boss’s wife, who is a loon in her own right, asked me “I noticed you’ve been wearing a lot of skirts lately. Is there a reason for that?” Not other than it being summer and hot and I like them, no. “Did you know in some cultures women wear skirts a lot when trying to get pregnant, in order to keep their energy flowing.” I don’t even know what to DO WITH THAT. Other than note it down for a good story one day!

    2. Thinking out loud*

      Wow. “Did you know that in some cultures, it’s totally inappropriate to ask if a woman is attempting to get pregnant?”

    5. Future Analyst*

      Wow. Just wow. I can’t quite tell who’s worse between the two. And commenting on you wearing skirts often is just weird.

      I had an assistant manager (who I’ve talked to maybe 1.5 times ever) tell me that I’m a breeder (WTF does that even mean?), and that I should have her next kid for her. I brought this on myself by mentioning that I would be out for maternity leave starting today. ??? People, ugh.

      2. LBK*

        Not sure if this makes sense in the context but “breeder” is occasionally a pejorative term used in the gay community to describe straight people.

        1. Ann Furthermore*

          Yes, that’s how I think of it. I had a close gay friend years ago who would use the expression “breeder” that way, which just annoyed the crap out of me. He tried over and over again to explain to me how it wasn’t really an offensive term. I disagreed and he thought I was being too touchy. But then he would get really bent out of shape whenever anyone who was not gay would use the term “queer.”

      3. VictoriaHR*

        “Breeder” typically means someone who wants children, to those who are childfree by choice or are unable to have biological children.

          1. Carrington Barr*

            Not “typically”. Occasionally, in a deprecatory way, and usually in response to a display of shitty or non-existing parenting.

            Remember, there are “breeders” and there are “parents”.

            1. Melissa*

              Depends on how hardcore the childfree person is. I’ve seen some childfree people call all people with children “breeders.”

              And regardless of the distinction, it’s still an inappropriate and pejorative term.

      4. Snargulfuss*

        Ugh, I’m having flashbacks to A Handmaid’s Tale. (I appreciate Atwood as a writer and the themes of the book, but I really hated the plot.)

    6. OfficePrincess*

      Well, at least you can still find humor in this nonsense. I’m not sure how I would have kept a straight face for either the “como estas” or the skirt thing.

    7. Carrie in Scotland*

      Oh FDCA, they are funny but I’m sorry you have such an awful boss. Continued positive thoughts for you & your family.

    10. Pineapple Incident*

      I have no response for these- very weird..

      As a totally unrelated aside, your username makes me laugh because we had a patient here a couple months ago who doctors were trying to convince to stop drinking so much diet coke. As in, it was likely the cause of his main chronic health issues. The man never drank water, only had cereal with milk for breakfast, and the only liquids he consumed for the rest of the day were diet coke in various bottle sizes, to the tune of about 5-6 liters per day. Good for you being a former diet coke addict!

      1. Ann Furthermore*

        Good god. I’ve cut way way down on my habit, but even at my worst I was never anywhere near that level of consumption. I’m now down to 2 a day. One with lunch, one with dinner. And water the rest of the time. I might sneak an additional one here and there on the weekends, but for the most part, it’s 2 a day.

        1. chilledcoyote*

          In high school, my friend’s mom started having heart palpitations at one point, and when she went to the doctor about it, it turned out that it was her 2L+/day Dr. Pepper consumption. I learned early about soda, it was scary!

          1. Ruffingit*

            I’ve had a bad soda habit for years now. Just recently went off them completely, which I’ve done before at various times throughout my life. Was off them for years at some point. Anyway, I’m feeling SO MUCH BETTER just drinking water and tea.

    11. Bee*

      I had a colleague ask me once why I wore long sleeves and cardigans, and that I should show some skin. I just rolled up my sleeves and showed my eczema scarred arms. It shut her up real quick.

    12. CM*

      To be fair, “Come sta?” sounds a lot like “Como estas?”
      And some people aren’t so good with knowing what to say to others who are in a tough situation.
      The skirt thing, though, I have no defense for…

    13. Miss Kitty Fantastico*

      I’m so sorry about your dad!!

      On the TOTAL OTHER END OF THE SPECTRUM, your second paragraph made me laugh out loud (for real). ….That is a thing I have never heard before…

    14. Technical Editor*

      I would read your blog titled “My Boss in a Lunatic.” Sounds like a great read every week!

    15. Jillociraptor*

      I’m so glad you can find humor in this (and share it with us). These anecdotes are hilarious and awful.

    16. Not So NewReader*

      “Oh. are you back from Italy so soon? Do you plan on going again, REAL SOON?”

      My thoughts go out to you and yours. Please take good care of you.

  3. Blue Swan*

    My department just finished receiving our annual performance reviews and morale is in the gutter. While everyone acknowledges that we have things we need to work on, the general feeling is that our boss majorly missed the mark and sandbagged many of us.

    He now wants to take us out for lunch next week and it’s pretty obvious to all that it’s a half-hearted peace offering, but everyone is so disgusted with him that no one wants to go. We’ll probably just suck it up, but is there any way to politely tell our boss that now is not a good time?

    1. Future Analyst*

      Mmm. I don’t know– is there a way for you to collectively address the reviews? That might be more useful/get to the root of the problem more than just skipping lunch. I’m not sure how to approach it, but telling him that the group felt slighted by the reviews for XYZ (valid) reasons might be the way to go. (I.e. “You expressed concerns that none of us did significant work in teapot design this year. However, at the beginning of the year you expressly told us to focus on teapot manufacturing. What can we do going forward to avoid missing the mark/clarify on your expectations?”)

    2. TootsNYC*

      “Why don’t we wait and go in three months or so, when we’ve all had a chance to improve based on your feedback in our reviews?”

      2. Vacation Sub*

        Good call!
        Been to those office lunches – we had a big office lunch at a restaurant the day after we had been told there were no pay raises that year. Year, that was a happy meal!

        Or wait – even better – an annual end of season party had been planned at an upper managements house. Five hours before the party, 8 people (of a 12 person staff) were laid off!

        1. ElCee*

          That last one is just cruel! I am generally not a vengeful person, but if I’d been laid off then encouraged/forced to go the party I would have accidentally spilled a bag of concrete into one of the toilets.

        2. Ruffingit*

          UGH. That happened to my husband’s boss. He was fired the day of the Christmas party. Such a downer for the rest of the crew because he was generally a good guy.

    3. Adam*

      This is a personal pet peeve of mine to the point where I might be kind of irrational about it. Annual performance evaluations reflect a year’s worth of work, growth, and dealing with the day-to-day tribulations of the workplace. The level of weight they hold varies from workplace to workplace but they are often tied to advancement opportunities and raises. Giving a lousy review (when none is merited) is not made up for by one lousy lunch.

      As for how to deal with it, the best I can say is approach him and ask him to put a hold on the idea and maybe discuss the impact of the reviews and see if you can get a better understanding of his reasoning and how the staff agrees or disagrees with that.

      1. Akwardly Anon*

        Good god me too. My manager has tried to placate me with goodies, and I have no appetite for it. I just want to do my work and leave at the end of the day.

      2. AMT*

        I agree with Alison’s approach to this — I’m just not a big fan of periodic formal feedback in general. Employees shouldn’t be thinking, “I hope I get a good performance review so I can get promoted!” It should be more like, “I know I’m doing well because my boss gives me regular verbal feedback, and I’m glad that my chances of advancement are based on my supervisor’s and others’ observation of my performance rather than whatever arbitrary star x/10 rating my boss decided to assign to a particular skill of mine.”

    4. LBK*

      I think I’d say something like “I feel uncomfortable going to what feels like a celebratory lunch when I’ve just been given a pretty tough review – it will be hard to really enjoy it since I don’t feel like I deserve it based on your recent feedback. Could we maybe instead set up some time to really work out a plan to get me up to where I need to be to meet your standards, and then we can celebrate together once we’re both satisfied with my work performance?”

      I think positioning it as “We’re a team and I want my recognition to match my results” instead of “You’re my dbag boss that’s trying to butter me up after shooting me down” will get better results.

      1. Pill Helmet*

        I don’t know, this feels really guilt trip-y to me. I think it’s a great idea to ask to discuss a plan to meet his standards. But doing that in the midst of turning down an peace offering (albeit a lame one that won’t really make up for anything), kind of reads as boss gave an unfair review, so instead of directly discussing that she’s upset about it, she’s going to be passive aggressive and hint by declining his gesture and making woe-is-me / you should feel bad comments in the process.

        “You just told me I wasn’t performing well, so why on Earth would I accept a reward? I just wouldn’t feel good about it, and since I clearly don’t deserve it, based on your review of my work, I won’t enjoy it either. I hope you feel bad about how you handled this now.”

        I’m sure it’s not intended that way, but its how I read it and I’d probably stay away from that tactic with the boss.

        2. LBK*

          …huh? No, that is literally the exact opposite of what I meant with this. It’s intended to be really, really direct and make it clear that you’re taking the boss’s feedback into consideration and that you want to improve. I guess it depends how genuinely you can deliver it.

    5. Katie the Fed*

      If everyone’s reviews were bad, there might be pressure on him from above to avoid inflating scores.

      1. Clever Name*

        Yeah, and sometimes when there is “no money in the budget” (I use quotes, because somehow there’s always money for executive compensation and bonuses, but I digress) for raises, managers are told that people can’t be rated above a certain level because that would trigger raises. Or managers are told that they have to rate a department or division or whatever on a bell curve, so some people end up forced lower (or higher) to meet the pre-determined curve. (Don’t even get me started on this as a commitment to mediocrity).

        1. Ann Furthermore*

          Oh, I know. My company just started doing the forced bell curve rankings this year. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out. The whole idea just ticks me off though.

          1. FJ*

            My company still does forced bell curve rankings. But all the companies that started it in a similar industry have now gone away from it because it isn’t working for them. They are pretty ridiculous when the whole division has to be forced rank and you work in a particularly high performing group of it. We also have very little transparency about how the numbers work, what it means to get one number or another, and how it affects future promotions. It is the worst of both worlds.

    6. Blue Swan*

      I just wanted to pop in and sincerely thank everyone for their input- I found everyone’s points to be very thought-provoking and it did inspire some self-reflection.

  4. Sunflower*

    What are your thoughts on getting a certification if you aren’t even sure you want to stay in your field? In 2 months I will be eligible to take my CMP (Certified Meeting Professional) Exam(you need x years of experience/degree to take the test) However, I’m really not sure I want to stay in this field. If a job comes up that I am really interested in- great. But I’d like to ideally make a move into project management- if not now, then soon. Likelihood of my company paying for the certification isn’t very low. I know a lot of people want to get into event planning so I’m thinking might distinguish me out from any old person who hangs a sign on their door saying ‘Beatrice Jones- Event Planner’. Also, I’ve been feeling kind of low lately and hoping to make a move to a new city and I’m wondering if this test could be an encouragement for me? Any other event planners on here would be esp helpful!

    *ps- i posted this really late a couple weeks ago so it might look familiar!

    2. TootsNYC*

      I like having options. I’ll sometimes even pay to have them.

      That’s what this certification feels like to me–something that gives you the option to expand in a certain field.

      So, is it an option that would cost you a LOT of money? If it never comes to anything, will you resent the cash you forked out?

      And I like your idea to check and see if this option actually has any power at all. A driver’s license might be a good option for a NYC resident who doesn’t own a car and never needs to drive (if they ever needed to rent a car, it would be absolutely crucial); a master’s degree for a journalist wouldn’t (completely less effective than work experience, and expensive to boot).

    3. Cambridge Comma*

      Can you take the test at any point in the future once you have your x years of experience under your belt or do you have to take it while employed in the field? Is there one deadline per year or is it a rolling deadline?
      If it’s flexible, I would wait.

      1. Sunflower*

        You need to be employed in the field within 12 months of applying for the exam. Once I apply to take the exam, I have a year after that to actually complete it. If I left my job in the next few months for a non event planning job, I personally would have until May 2016 to apply and then I guess until May 2017 to actually take the exam. The test is offered every 3 months.

    4. Boogles*

      If you’re that close, I would get the cert. You never know what will be useful in the future.

  5. Con Man Pilot*

    I’m brainstorming a list of potential full-time jobs that are part of the customer service field, jobs with a good amount of interactions with customers/clients. Bonus points if they involve event planning/assistance. Any ideas besides the standard retail, food service, strictly phone-operator, and technical support jobs? Any help is greatly appreciated!

    1. Sunflower*

      Hotels and conference centers are a good place to look. Sales and Catering depts in hotels are almost always looking for admins and coordinators. Also check out some universities. I live in Philly and UPenn always has tons of coordinator jobs working with students or alumni. I’d say 70% of them deal with event planning of some sort. If you are willing to work in non-profits, those jobs usually have a lot of client interaction and involve event planning.

    2. Lizzy May*

      I’m a bank teller and while my position isn’t part time, some are. Also my manager is the Customer Service Manager for the branch and her role is full-time and most of her job is client interaction.

    3. Dawn*

      Some companies (I’m thinking Palantir in particular because I have seen a job posting for it) will hire internal event planners that organize morale boost stuff for employees or organize conferences/showcases for clients and whatnot. I don’t know where you’re located or if you’re willing to relocate but check out a lot of the big tech companies (IBM, Oracle, etc) as well as large-ish tech startups (like Palantir, as I mentioned) and look for coordinator jobs.

    4. LBK*

      Maybe working in a financial advisor’s office? Those roles can be heavily administrative, but do often involve a lot of calling the advisors’ clients to set up meetings, following up on initiatives and setting up special events for the big clients (the office I worked with for a while would do things like take their top 5 clients out to a baseball game in our company’s box seats).

    5. MostCommonLastName*

      There are a fair number of jobs like that in tourism. Tour guides, travel agents, even people in local tourism offices dealing with public enquiries and helping people plan their trips.

    6. Sabrina*

      Banquet Coordinator type jobs at an event hall or golf club that has weddings or other type of events. Basically anywhere with event space like a museum, art gallery, zoo, etc.

    8. cuppa*

      The public library. A lot of customer assistance/interaction and the opportunity to plan and present programming.

    9. BRR*

      Nonprofits hire event planners to usually work in their fundraising offices (universities hire for other event planning services as well).

    10. S*

      I’m an administrative coordinator at an organization that offers leadership trainings and similar things like that across my state. Lots of customer service, along with event planning and travel to the various trainings.

    14. Felicia*

      I work in member services at a membership based association for a certain profession. Pretty much every profession has an association, and there are always full time jobs at associations like what you’re describing.

    15. Clever Name*

      Working for professional organizations might meet these criteria. Especially ones that offer a lot of conferences and other continuing education.

    17. Rock*

      I’m an office manager for a construction company, and it has a surprising amount of event planning in the job description, as well as being a face for walk-ins and phones, so there’s a bit of client interaction too! :) We’re in the middle of doing 6 evening events, and I’ve planned the catering and planning, and reached out to the invitees via phone and email invitations for all of them. Some of them were fairly heavy hitters.
      It’s a small office so I’m the everything-person, including reception (client facing) admin work (less client facing) and planning whatever needs to be planned.
      Honestly the event planning was a bit unexpected. XD

    18. louise*

      I just saw an opening at Lowes for a project manager/designer who helps people plan new kitchens and baths. The pay was way higher than I expected. It’s sales, ultimately, but it’s not all store based from the ad I saw. Looked really interesting. We’re in an area with loads of “old money” so I don’t know if every store has that position.

      1. Rehabilitating Mr Wiggles*

        Interesting. Does the position call for knowledge and use of CAD tools to do design layouts and visualizations? If so …. hmmm. I just got a 5% raise at my current job, so I’m not in a hurry to leave, but I often ponder what kind of low stress ‘fun’ job I might take on when I retire. And oddly enough, many people don’t know how to do 3D design …

        Thanks, I might look into this.

  6. Future Analyst*

    Office food etiquette question: Yesterday afternoon I had cookies delivered for my team, as a thank you and goodbye before I head off on maternity leave. When everyone else had left for the day, I took the remaining cookies home, since I didn’t want them to sit out all night and attract any critters (we’re in the sub-basement, and waterbugs and even rodents are not uncommon, so gross). This morning, one of my team members came to ask if I had taken the cookies home, and was disappointed and grouchy that I had, stating that she was planning on having one today. This individual had known about the cookies, but didn’t have one because she had had a donut yesterday morning (something I didn’t know until this morning). Was it inappropriate of me to have taken them home? I specifically didn’t pack anything up until everyone had left. And should I have brought them back this morning? I’ve never run into this situation before.

    2. it happens*

      You did nothing wrong (except for not sending us virtual cookies.) What would she have done if all the cookies were eaten? If she wanted a cookie to eat the next day she could have taken it wrapped up in a paper towel herself. Remember, no good deed goes unpunished;)

    3. alter_ego*

      That seems totally normal and okay to me. I bring in baked goods from time to time, and if they’re still there at the end of the day, I’ll usually stick them in their tupperware until the next day. but if I brought them home with me instead, I can’t IMAGINE anyone commenting negatively. And if they did, welp, no more baked goods, I guess.

      If your coworker had really wanted a cookie, but not that morning, she would have done what everyone in my office does when there’s cupcakes in the break room at 8 am. Grab one and wrap it in a napkin, to be eaten at whatever time is deemed appropriate.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Yeah, this is standard practice here–when people bring treats, it’s understood that you better take one if you even think you might want it, because when you come back they’re likely to be gone. If I want to get rid of something fattening, I put it on the break room table and they hoover it right up.

    4. IndianSummer*

      It was very nice of you to bring in cookies for your teammates! I think that your coworker is overreacting by being grouchy.

      There is a lot of food brought in at my workplace. Sometimes people stick it in the fridge for the next day and sometimes people take it home. I think you were ok to do either.

    6. coffeedevil*

      Firstly thanks for that sweet gesture to bring food in – that is always welcome here too! Definitely the normal thing in my office at the end of the day is to wrap leftovers and put in the fridge or a drawer, so people can bring them out again the next day. We have so many people doing diets when they don’t eat every day (5:2 etc) and people work odd patterns, so it seems a bit odd to take food straight home at the first change – when food gets to the office here, it stays here! I think the exception is a weekend or when the food looks like it is about to be spoiled, you had better make use of it or take it away.

    7. Gwen*

      I don’t think it’s wrong, but generally in my office snacks are covered/put in the fridge if they aren’t finished and taken back out the next day, so it could seem weird if someone packed the food back up and took it with them (if anyone noticed, which I doubt they would) and some people who left seeing some were still there would expect them to still be an option the following day. But it sounds like with the critters and such you have good reason not to leave food around!

    8. Amber Rose*

      You bought them, you decide on the fate of the leftovers. Food gifts are one day gifts due to shelf life. These are the unstated rules in every office I’ve ever been in.

    9. TootsNYC*

      Especially because they were a treat for your team, a present, I think it is weird for you to have taken them home. That benefits you; it feels like a Homer Simpson present.
      If one of the recipients had taken them all home, it wouldn’t feel quite so weird, especially if having bugs is a real problem for you (not so much a problem in the offices I’ve been to) and storing them was also difficult (spoilage; getting stale or soggy…).

      I would have tried to find a way to keep them in the office, or I’d have brought them back.

      1. plain_jane*

        One recipient taking them home (out of a team) seems weird to me. Why do they get to have everything that is left? In any office I’ve been in, that would be looked at askance.

        If I bring in baking, anything that is left comes home with me and my SO gets it.

    10. Sunflower*

      TBH I think it was really weird your coworker approached you about this. You did a nice gesture and she acted like you took away something work related from her (like ‘oh you threw away those reports, I was gonna use them to compile some data’). She should have taken a cookie and wrapped it up for today if she wanted it. How did she even know there would be any left today?? You were totally right here

    12. Carrie in Scotland*

      What? No, you did nothing wrong. Although left overs in my workplace are usually covered over somehow and stored in the fridge/on the kitchen work surface.

    13. Beancounter in Texas*

      Protocol in our office is that gift food is sealed in a container on the counter or in the fridge until spoiled or eaten. However, this appears to conflict to everyone else’s replies. But we’d also just write it off that you’re pregnant and hungry. :)

    14. Cambridge Comma*

      I often take my own baking back home with me and freeze it. It will be much less good the next day. And no-one gets to complain about free food.

    15. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Leftovers at our office are always taken home, generally by the person with the most moxie to bundle them up and leave (we once had someone take home SIX pizzas). I’m surprised she thought there would be anything waiting for her the next day…

    16. Xanthippe Lannister Voorhees*

      Given your critter situation, everyone but this woman is glad that you took them home and didn’t leave them out overnight!

    17. The Other Dawn*

      Nope, you didn’t do anything wrong. You bought the cookies, it’s your right to take them home at the end of the day. Maybe if you had packed them up an hour after they arrived I could see someone being a little disappointed, or if someone else bought them and you stuck a dozen of them in your purse, but you paid for them and waited until the end of the work day. Besides, everyone knows that when it comes to office food, you snooze you lose. Gotta be fast with that stuff!

    18. Ad Astra*

      If the company had paid for the food as some sort of business expense, I might think your coworker had a point. But it sounds like this was a gift that you paid for yourself, and you gave everyone a reasonable chance to take one before you packed up the leftovers. I can see how your coworker might be disappointed, but that’s more about her bad luck than your etiquette.

    19. CPA to be*

      I never understand why our company does the same thing. Brings us cookies, root beer floats, and other sugary unhealthy placating snacks, espeicially since I work for a large health care system. We sit on our butts 8 hrs a day staring at a monitor with little to no movement, and yet we are given basically junk food. I am healthy, try to eat healthy as much as I can. When I suggested they bring something healthy instead of junk, I was given a look of horror. Considering many of the office workers are obese to say the least, it would make sense to start dishing out some veggies.

      Further more, I can buy my own snacks. Trying to appease me with junk food doesnt cut it. How bout you give me the $2.50 you just spent on that crap. Id rather have the money.

      1. S*

        Or how about you take your judgment and fat-shaming out of this thread and stop trying to impose lifestyle choices on other people? If you choose to keep to a healthy diet, then don’t eat the snacks provided (as a gift for your company/team, not just you, might I add), but don’t make the choice for your coworkers.

      2. Elsajeni*

        This is an awfully weird reply to someone whose problem is “My coworker wishes I had given her MORE cookies”!

        1. CPA to be*

          Perhaps my concerns should be its own thread. I personally grow tired of the unhealthy snacks. When the initial poster said that he brought cookies, it reminded me of all the cookies and junk brought to us.

          And I’m not fat shaming anyone. Obesity is a controlable medical and psychological condition. If it makes someone “shamed” then they should do something to contol it.

          2. Amber Rose*

            Obesity is an issue that encompasses a great deal more than size. Plenty of visibly large people are perfectly healthy, while many very slender people suffer all the symptoms associated with obesity such as fatigue, shortness of breath and digestive problems.

            You are awfully judgemental for someone so poorly informed.

    20. Beezus*

      Protocol in my office is for the person who brought food to handle any leftovers at the end of the day and clean up any residual mess. Leaving food out to go stale/attract pests/be cleaned up by someone else is considered rude here. Baked goods are sometimes left for a second day if they’re still good and tightly wrapped, but the norm is to toss things, take them home, or give them away.

    21. Litwolf*

      To me, that’s no issue at all. I’ve done it plenty of times with food I bring in.

      Heck, I made a cake for our department picnic. Through the whole day, I was texting on and off with a family member who was having the day from hell. When dessert was served, I swooped in on the last piece of my own cake to wrap up and bring home to cheer up my family memeber. None of my team pitched a fit about it.

      Your coworker is being silly.

    22. Panda Bandit*

      She should have gotten a cookie when they were out and wrapped it up. Never assume that food will even be around later, especially in the case of baked goods.

    23. fposte*

      Oh, eyeroll. Yes, you were fine to take them home. However, I think it’s fine to announce at the end of the day that the cookies are being taken home/thrown out/sent to Mars and that anybody who wants to get one last shot should grab now.

    24. JB (not in Houston)*

      I really think it depends on what is usual in your office. People bring food to my office All. The. Time. Usually people will leave stuff to be eaten the next day, but we have plastic wrap for stuff that can stay out at room temperature and a refrigerator for stuff that can’t, so critters isn’t an issue. Sometimes people do leave stuff out uncovered, which irritates me because I don’t want critters.

      I will sometimes bring a small amount of stuff and take it home with me if there’s, say, one or two cookies left. Or I will find somebody to send stuff home with. But that’s a small amount of baked goods that was brought in. Usually if there’s a larger amount of stuff or something was delivered or brought in for a specific reason, there’s an expectation that stuff will be there the next day. But even here it would be weird to get huffy about the person who bought it taking the rest home. I mean, it’s a cookie.

      One of my coworkers will bring in an enormous amount of food, so much that it would take all week for us to eat it, and then take all the leftovers home at the end of the day. I am convinced that she actually wants to buy it for herself but can’t bring herself to justify it, so she buys enough to guarantee there will something leftover that she can take home. But it’s her money, so if she wants to do that, that’s her business.

    25. Sadsack*

      I agree with the others that you were right. Don’t take it personally, she was probably just grouchy about missing out on a cookie and it wasn’t directed at you. I’d forget about it if I were you.

    26. Jessie's Girl*

      That team member’s comment would have received my patented Blank Stare with the accompanying “Ok,” followed by my back whilst I walk away.

      Ridiculous comments like that don’t warrant a reply.

  7. setsuko*

    A question for you all: how many hours a day do you spend at work and how many of those involve focused and productive work? I can never decide if I am being lazy, or pushing myself too hard!

      1. Adam*

        This. My work load fluctuates greatly from season to season. Granted I could always be a little less lazy, but how much it would make a difference definitely varies.

      2. Dot Warner*

        I agree. My workload varies a lot from day to day – some days, I barely have time for lunch, and other days I’m just keeping the chair warm.

        1. cuppa*

          mine too. I actually like it because it helps me be super productive on really busy days, but the non busy days give me a bit of a break.

      3. JenGray*

        I agree- part of my job depends on others and if they have nothing for me than I have to do my other lower priority stuff. There are days where I am slammed with deadlines and stuff that has to get done that day. Other days, I am not as busy and will occasionally do other things. The schedule I have means that I work 9 hours a day except for Fridays and then get every other Friday off. There are some days where by 3pm I get distracted & bored because I am not being very productive and this only makes it worse. I think that as long as things are getting done and you are overall working you are probably fine.

      4. Anna*

        That’s the same here. Today and yesterday have been sort of not great, productivity-wise.

    2. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Well, some days I am slammed and working for 8 solid hours, some days I am twiddling my thumbs while waiting to get green lights on various projects. Not helpful, I know…

    3. IndianSummer*

      I work 8 hour days. When I have general day to day work to do, I am about 65% productive. If I have a deadline looming, I am about 90% productive. When I have no work to do, I am about 25% productive.

      2. Elysian*

        I put myself about here. I have to bill my time, so its pretty obvious when I’m not productive. On an average day I work I am at work about 9 hours (including lunch) and aim to bill/realize about 7 hours, which is kind of ambitious and I usually fall a bit short. Anything below 6 hours is a “bad” day. When I’m swamped I will usually actually work all 9+ hours (yesterday I billed 11.6 and was at the office for 11.9), but then at some point in the future I’ll be taking a hit on my billing/productivity because I’ll need to make up administrative tasks and organizational stuff.

        1. bridget*

          The billable hour really makes me feel like an unproductive jerk, most of the time :) Depending on how many days are in the month, I aim for 7 billed hours a day, which if I’m honest, typically takes me at least 10 office hours to hit. I love it when I have some Big Stressful Filing Deadline and just HAVE to bill 12 hours in a day, hour for hour, because it gives me breathing room on other days.

        2. afiendishthingy*

          I billed 5.25 hours today and this was a very productive day for me. But there are also unavoidable parts of my job I can’t bill for, like driving time – I drove 600+ miles for work last month, many conversations, and entering notes into the billing system. I usually spend eight or nine hours at work a day, the billable hours goal for my position is 4.5 a day. Sounds like nothing, but state regulations on what we can bill for make it kind of difficult. It’s crazy because I can feel like I’ve barely had a chance to breathe all day but still have bad numbers. That’s usually when every time I start to work on something somebody interrupts me with a new crisis of the day; I’m not good at switching quickly between tasks.

    4. Dawn*

      Ooo good question! I really want to read everyone’s answers to this.

      I feel really guilty sometimes about not being at least 90% productive every day… but when I don’t have a deadline and the stuff I’m working on is a “nice to have sometime soon-ish” it’s hard to get above 20-25% productive. When I have a deadline, tho, I average 90-100% productive depending on how soon the deadline is.

    5. sittingduck*

      I work 8 hour days, and it does depend on the season how much of that time I’d consider focused productive work. In the busier seasons, I would say 7.5 hours is focused and productive (30 min for lunch). Right now, our slower season, I would say I only do about 2- 4 hours of ‘focused productive’ work a day, the rest of the time is spent trying to figure out other projects to do, discussing things with co-workers, doing ‘clean-up’ or ‘downtime’ tasks that don’t ‘need’ to be done on any timescale.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yeah, I was wondering if “productive” includes clean-up and down time tasks. If it doesn’t then my answer would be different.

        I do go from task to task but some days I repeatedly get derailed by the computer gods. Then there are mundane tasks that no one in a hundred years would ever be able to figure out that I had to stop and straighten it out. These tasks also derail me. For example, a while back I spent 45 minutes trying to figure out why my desk would not lock up. It was locking before… why did it stop? Who knows. I got it fixed at any rate. I can go in some days spend 3 hours on a computer issue, spend another 2 hours researching some picky little thing and end up with just a couple hours of what I call “real work”. I don’t like getting bogged down like that and sometimes it makes the next day seem a little harder. Those are the days where I find myself stopping to chat more. I just need to look up from Intense Task so I can incubate the problem for a bit.

    6. Anony-moose*

      I rarely work for the full 7.5-8 hours I’m at my desk. I’m pretty efficient though, so I can work quickly in spurts and then relax a bit. I’m not pushing myself hard enough but I’m exceeding my goals and to be honest my morale is a bit low so I don’t want to do more!

      I struggle with feeling *punished* for being efficient because the response from my team is to load more work on me – work they should be doing and just don’t want to. My boss has said “well I transferred this to you because you’re faster/more accountable/etc” and while I appreciate her trust in me it does end up making my day to day more difficult and my coworkers a lot easier!

    7. setsuko*

      I work between 4 and 12 hours a day. Anything from 5% to 90% productive. But then I work in academia (I’m a grad student). I just never knwo when to say: that was a good days work – you can stop now!

    8. Natalie*

      We have flex time, but in general my days are between 7 and 9 hours depending on various factors. Depending on the day, I spend between 15-25% of my time being non-productive or almost non-productive, about half my time at mid-level production, and the remaining time at a high level. And for whatever it’s worth, I get consistently high marks on work volume produced so I’m not as much of a slacker as the high amount of downtime might suggest.

    9. LBK*

      I work 7.5-8 hour days and probably average about 4 hours of productivity during that. I tend to work in short, extremely focused bursts, or I’ll just bang out an entire big project in one day rather than spreading it out over a week. I have made it fairly clear to my manager that I have a lot of availability and it’s never taken advantage of, so at this point I’ve pretty much stopped feeling bad about it.

    10. Xanthippe Lannister Voorhees*

      I spend 8 hours technically at work, but 1 hour is my mandatory lunch. How much work I do is really dependent, and I can also do a lot of things that don’t look like work but are related (like one day I spent the entire 7 hours researching obscure Catholic terminology- probably a waste of that day but has been incredibly helpful now as I have more curatorial responsibilities!). It’s construction season and our entire office’s productivity has real dropped due to noise and interruptions but I would say I always spend at least 60% of my day on actual work.

    11. Pineapple Incident*

      I work 8 hour days, and since I have a front desk/admin role, I don’t always have tasks to do. By that I mean depending where I am for the day I might be busy less than 50%, which sadly happens often and is why I’m such an avid reader here. Trying to move up to something better.

      For your situation, whether you’re productive/not likely depends entirely on what your superiors glean from your work. Have you asked them for feedback or for extra tasks when you’re feeling like there isn’t a lot to do? If you’re getting into a mode where you feel like you’re pushing too hard to get things done in one day’s work, I would ask them how they feel about your productivity and give them some insight into the pressure(s), if any, that are acting on you and your work.

      1. Shan*

        +10000 I think we are the same person. I’m in a front desk/admin role, and some days (like today) I am just waiting for a project. I tend to get my bigger projects (expense reports, POs, etc.) done early on in the week. Since its Friday in the middle of summer, my motivation is very low today.

        I have been spending my free time learning more about Scrum and Project Management though.

        1. Pineapple Incident*

          Is it sad that I would kill to have actual projects? I am floating staff, so I go wherever needed, sometimes different places every day for weeks. I could be in an area for an entire week covering regular staff on vacation or out sick, and never be there again. I don’t have to be accountable for anything, which is about the only perk (although for a job I liked more where I actually had responsibility, I would LOVE to be held accountable for my work because I’m good) but it also means it’s impossible for anyone to give me projects that will take more than the day if they can’t be easily picked up by someone else :/

          1. Shan*

            It’s not sad at all! I’m not a floating staff member, so I’m in a slightly different situation, but I’ve been working with the IT department trying to get small projects from them.

            Is there any department in particular you are interested in? If so, are you able to ask your manager if you’d be able to take on a project for a department even if you aren’t going to be in that area?

    13. CrazyCatLady*

      8 hours a day at work. Some days I’m busy for the 8 hours, sometimes I have maybe 2 hours of actual focused and productive work.

    14. AnotherFed*

      8-11 hours a day, but lots of it is meetings. Meetings are maybe 10% productive but mandatory, and the hours after they end are my most productive, and usually hit 95% or so. If I have lots of small time gaps (10-20 minutes)between meetings, that’s almost useless time for anything except clearing out email because I can’t get back in the zone on complicated things for so little time.

      1. afiendishthingy*

        Ugh, sounds awful, I’m lucky to only spend a few hours a month in staff/department meetings. They end around lunchtime and it takes me forever to get back into productivity mode afterwards.

    15. The IT Manager*

      I mostly have at least enough work to fill up 40 hours a week. Sometimes I have lots more work than that for month on end. I am still average no more productivity than 5 hours a day, I’d say, but it varies a lot. I have lots of meetings (which I count as productive time), but they interrupt the day and switching between activities costs time. (I have a meeting in 10 minutes so I won’t start on anything else now.) I used to be more focused. I think the stressful go, go, go job has trained me to focus on only the biggest fire that needs to be dealt with now and I find I have trouble being more forward thinking. If something is not due now, I have trouble getting motivated to do it.
      And of course sometimes we all need a break.

      1. The IT Manager*

        I don’t think I answered your question about “focused productive work.” Some days I do keep busy all day but cannot point to one big thing I did that I accomplished, and that feels like a non-productive day. Going through emails and responding (which I am pretty bad about) doesn’t usually feel like productive work but obviously ignoring email is not an option. But flipping through the emails is hard because each click to the next email is an time where my brain says you deserve a reward for doing work – even if the work was less than 5 minutes email and response.

      2. another IT manager*

        “I think the stressful go, go, go job has trained me to focus on only the biggest fire that needs to be dealt with now and I find I have trouble being more forward thinking. If something is not due now, I have trouble getting motivated to do it.”

        This. Also the endless feeling that if you get involved in something that takes a awhile to focus on, someone’s going to call just as I get into the groove.

    16. Rita*

      “I’d say in a given week I probably only do about fifteen minutes of real, actual, work.”

      This question made me think of this quote :)

    17. Bea W*

      My productivity fluctuates as well, depending on the number of meetings, interruptions, and priority shifts occur and at what intervals. Then some days my brain is just less functional. I’ve learned to switch tasks based on where I’m at. If I’m not in the frame of mind or have too many interruptions in my days to be very productive at one task, I put that task aside and do something else.

      It works well for me. I used to push myself to focus on the one task I thought I should be doing right then according to my priorities and on a bad day I might barely get much done AND still have all the other work waiting. Noticing when I’m not up to working on spouts and deciding to take a break from them and focus on handles for a bit means I’m not having much unproductive time at all, and I’m able to get more done even if the “break” is not a different work task but a walk outside. I can come back to my original task with new energy.

      I can do this because there’s no shortage of work I have to do. There’s no down time. I have to make downtime (doing something kind of mindless or more enjoyable) if I need a breather.

      I tried that exercise where you keep a log of your daily activities. It really helped me put in perspective feelings of slacking and not doing enough. I very quickly saw in black and white I was in fact engaged in work and accomplishing things every day, every week. I felt much better about my work habits after a couple weeks of that.

    18. Mike C.*

      Yeah, it really depends – there are emergencies that require ten hours a day, and there are times where I’m not doing much at all but then after a few hours everything I’m working on falls right into place.

    19. Chris*

      Varies widely. I am lucky to have a work environment that is very flexible as long as my work is getting done. This means I work long, productive hours during busy times and tend to leave early during slower times. Summer is a busy time in my job, so this week I’ve worked 12 hour days at a very high level of productivity. I decided to take the day off today because I am mentally exhausted. I know this means that next week, I’ll also need to be highly productive because there are things I’m pushing to next week in order to take the day off.

      During my less busy times, my productivity drops a fair bit, maybe 50%. If I have a day where I am just getting nothing done, I usually just head home.

      1. Bea W*

        I’ve found out the hard way taking that day off it just necessary. If I try to push through it my productivity just drops off a cliff, and I get less done than I would have if I’d just taken a day off to recover.

    20. Alice*

      My workload is pretty steady and non-urgent so I usually work for an hour and then take a ten (or fifteen) minute break (fiddling around on the internet). So that means on a regular 9-6 day I’m only actually working 6.5-7 hours.

      Honestly, if I tried to do NOTHING but work all day, I’d burn out after two hours or so. Then again, my work is boring.

      1. NotARobot*

        That’s how I’d prefer to work but my employer expects productivity all day every day to the point where everyone is required to take their two ten minute breaks at the same time every day so they can make sure no one is slacking. Last I looked I was a human, not a robot.

        1. Alice*

          Gah. What managers need to know is that productivity doesn’t necessarily equal working every minute of every day.

      2. Bea W*

        My work is totally not boring, and I find the same thing. I need mini-breaks through-out the day. I need to force myself to break for 5-10 minutes sometimes to give my brain a rest so I don’t burn out. This is especially true for mentally challenging tasks and definitely for the boring ones. I really don’t think most people are capable of sustaining doing nothing but work all day. There are no slackers in my office, and we all take those short breaks to keep us going. I will extend my office/working hours slightly if I’ve found I need more breaks and have looming deadlines so that I’m not losing productive time.

        For 8 productive work hours I really need 9-10 hours of office time to account for at least 3o min of lunch and at least two 10-15 min mid-morning/mid-afternoon breaks. The more mentally demanding my day is, the more downtime I need to keep my productivity steady through the day.

        I’ve also figured out (recently!) that when it comes to certain tasks I find really mentally demanding, like writing or editing/reviewing complex process documents, I’m good for about 4 hours a day before I burn out. I might squeeze out 5 hours on that type of task on a really good day, but the rest of the time I need to do something else that does not involve writing or editing documents and is relatively enjoyable.

        1. Alice*

          At least you have “mentally demanding” tasks that keep you busy … I would love to see a study linking productivity and work hours. I’m sure it’s a person-by-person basis, but I think most people are like this (us).

    21. pinky*

      6.5 hours from September-June, full on concentration for the entire 6.5 hours, 3 hours from July-August for extended school year for disabled kids, full concentration for the 3 hours. I’m a special education teacher for the students with the most needs!

    22. Rehabilitating Mr Wiggles*

      Hmmm. It depends on how you define focused and productive work.

      I work at home (although this is slowly changing, but in general as soon as my feet hit the floor in the morning I’m planning my day. 5 minutes for coffee and I’m at my workstation reading email that came in overnight, and (not rarely) answering questions from some ther early-riser. I don’t tend to eat lunch, so many days I’m online and in front of my computer from 7:30am to 5:30pm (with occasional body- and feed-the-dog-breaks.

      But every day is different. Some days I may have to run over to the lab and interview someone. I’m one of the highest-ranking members of my division on-site here, so we occasionally get together for a business lunch. I attend many meetings and I take a lot of phone calls – and these can happen anytime inside or outside of business hours. Usually they are scheduled in advance, but not always. Y’all might think I’m joking, but I am expected to spend some amount of my time surfing the ‘net, reading news, and learning new stuff (sometimes via an actual class, sometimes just informally). Anything especially interesting, I’ll write it up and either publish it internally or send around via email – for instance, this was a big week for Google Deep Dream – a number of the designers and developers I work with had never heard of it, and they were shocked when they saw it. And I have my fingers in a number of different pies (ie, I serve of one of the promotion committees), which is usually a matter of a phone conference now and again, but there tend to be lots of “hey – got 5 minutes?” kinds of phone calls, not to mention that occasionally I have to pull together a presentation or demo. And there’s the entire “networking” aspect – I know a lot of people, and I have to keep up with them so that when someone asks me “who can I talk to about Z?”, I can put them in touch.

      And then there are the misc programming tasks, although those are becoming less and less now that I’m a manager.

      All that said, I still can’t do more than guess how many hours I work each day or each week. Self-serving though it might sound, I feel like they get rather more than 40 hours a week out of me.

  8. S. Jay*

    Help! I am a female with terrible handwriting. I tell people all the time that I must be missing the gene that gives people nice handwriting. It’s embarrassing and shameful and is starting to get in the way of my professional career. Specifically today when my boss brought me a sympathy card with his handwritten notes of what to write in it before he signs it and mails it out to a client . He asked that I write it so that it will be legible for the person who is to receive it; presumably because he didn’t feel comfortable enough with his own handwriting. Well, guess what? I wrote exactly what he asked me to write and it looks terrible! I’m tempted to go out and buy a new card so I can try again! It’s tearing me up inside that this will be sent out to one of our most important clients when it looks like it was written by a third grader (no offense to any third graders, or course.)

    I’ve experienced similar anguish in my adult life when filling out job applications, greeting cards, and other important documents. I don’t know what I can do to improve my handwriting and it’s become such an embarrassment in both my personal life and professional career. Any advice?

    1. HeyNonnyNonny*

      I have terrible handwriting; for important forms I write in all printed caps. It seems to be easier for others to read and minimizes some of my usual writing tics.

    2. NJ anon*

      Not sure what being a female has to do with bad handwriting. I’m female and mine is not the greatest. For the card, could you have asked someone else to do it? I honestly think you are over stressing on this. Plenty of people have lousy handwriting and they manage to survive!

      1. Natalie*

        Given the boss anecdote, I think she’s referring to the fact that women are expected, however unfairly, to have nice handwriting.

        1. MsM*

          Which is all the more reason to pipe up and say, “Actually, mine looks like chicken scratch. Mind if I ask Bob the intern to handle, and I’ll review it before sending?”

    3. TootsNYC*

      Handwriting is practice–not genes. It’s muscle memory.

      Get one of those handwriting books for 5th graders and practice. Also, doodling same-size, evenly spaced loops across the tops of the notebook paper while you’re listening in meetings will help with some of the muscle memory.

      1. fposte*

        And slow down. I have horrible handwriting, so I can’t really take handwritten notes anymore. But I can slow down and write a card legibly if I must.

        1. Sadsack*

          Slow is definitely key. I always start slow, but impatience gets the better of me. By the end of my message, it looks like the ravings of a serial killer.

          1. S. Jay*

            It’s tough because I find that when I try to slow down to force myself to write neatly I tense up and my hand cramps and my handwriting is still terrible!

      4. Bea W*

        There are people who just physically can’t write well. They have some kind of deficit/disinfect with fine motor skills needed for writing. My brother has this issue. He also had a language learning disability, but I’ve seen in people who had no learning disability. I went to school with two kids who took written exams orally and they used tape recorders because taking hand written notes was so physically difficult. They could write legibly if they did so very slowly and deliberately, but they could not physically manage it at the speed needed for note taking or hand written in class exams. This is an actual thing.

        Practice can certainly help, but if OP has an issue with fine motor skills, it might not be enough.

        Interestingly for some people with ADHD, medication improves handwriting. I don’t know why or how but I see this over the course of the day if I’m taking a lot of notes at work.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          I have a math LD and I have the same issue. My writing starts neat and then deteriorates quickly. Also, it took me ages to learn things like blowing a bubble with bubble gum and whistling, that other kids picked up really fast. It wasn’t until I learned more about my LD that I found a deficit in fine motor skills can be part of the problem.

          Could also explain why I mess up at console video games so badly. Grr.

          1. Bea W*

            One of my friends with this issue had a math LD also! He was brilliant at verbal/language tasks and worked as a reporter for various small papers, but he struggled with basic arithmetic, and it was absolutely painful to watch him try to hold a pen and write something as simple as his own name. At best it looked like the efforts of a really determined pre-schooler.

        2. Anx*

          I was just wondering if ADHD could have something to do with bad handwriting as I read some of the above comments.

          I have about 5-6 different handwriting styles. I am sometimes capable of writing neatly, but it’s always a struggle and never looks ‘natural.’ My mom has fancy, beautiful, hard-to-read handwriting and my dad has silly, legible handwriting.

          I have some ADHD symptoms and notice that I always mess up on cards: I start writing in the wrong places and run out of room. I switch between cursive and print within the same word, but if I handwrite as if it were almost a meditation, I do alright.

      5. Dynamic Beige*

        Handwriting is practice–not genes. It’s muscle memory.

        When my mother was in school, they were all taught to write the same way. My Auntie has the most beautiful, clear handwriting I’ve ever seen. I think it’s partly because that’s the way she was taught and drilled and partly there must have been lessons when she later became a teacher so that the parents could read her handwriting. I only say that because one day I found my 6th grade report card and the handwriting of my male teacher was very similar in the evenness and clarity of it.

        If you want to improve your handwriting, you can. It will take time and patience and practice, but it can be done.

    4. AnonymousaurusRex*

      I think it is interesting that you point out that you are female. I too am a woman with terrible handwriting, but I make no apologies for it. If it isn’t a problem for men, why should it be something that stands in your way? I often have men ask me to write something “so it will look nice” and I just flat out refuse. I tell them it would honestly look better if they did it themselves (which is true). I think it’s just kind of sexist to assume that because I’m a lady I have pretty handwriting. I can barely read it myself. That said, I *can* make an effort to write something neatly and legibly (if not beautifully) when it’s really needed. It just takes me some time.

      1. DatSci*

        +1

        I’m actually quite proud of my terrible handwriting, I think it lends itself to the point that I have not spent hours doodling/practicing and training my muscles to memorize pretty loops, I’ve been working on substantive research instead.

        1. Beezus*

          Wow. I think you can embrace something about yourself without putting other people down. I agree with you that handwriting isn’t that big of a deal, but then it follows that learning nice penmanship in elementary school isn’t a glaring personal fault.

          1. DatSci*

            I fail to see where my post mentioned either of the transgressions you’ve pointed out. There’s no need to be defensive.

        2. TootsNYC*

          In the olden days, military officers practiced their handwriting, because it was *imperative* that the orders or information they wrote down be legible to other people. Lives, battles, depended on it.

          And having decent-enough handwriting that can be read by others *is* a productivity gain.

          And having handwriting that’s a bit more attractive that “just legible” can be the same sort of boost that “dressing a little bit nicely” has–it can be the exact same perception difference that means you’re considered for promotion because you “dress like a manager.”

          People who work on those “soft skills” aren’t being “less than substantive.”

          1. The Strand*

            Great, great point.

            People joke about doctors’ handwriting, but it is an element of professionalism that can end up being dead serious – just as with military officers of the past. If someone – a pharmacist for example, or a treating RN – reads a physician’s messy 0 as an 8, they could give a patient way too much medication.

            1. Elizabeth West*

              These days, though, it’s possible to print out all that information from a computer. Or prescriptions are sent electronically and never see the page.

              1. Melissa*

                I agree, but I still get the vast majority of my prescriptions handwritten by a doctor on a prescription pad. They only get transmitted electronically if I can tell my doctor ahead of time which pharmacy I’m visiting and they have an agreement with that pharmacy.

                1. Bea W*

                  Electronic prescriptions are a recent invention. I was still filling handwritten scripts as recently as 10 years ago. Not to mention, many chart notes are still hand written. A lot of places have gone totally electronic in my part of the country, but there are still a lot of medical providers and hospitals out there who have not transitioned. Putting electronic systems in place has a huge up front cost both in terms of purchasing equipment, software, and expertise but also training everyone on how to use them and transferring all of that information currently on paper to the electronic system.

          2. Bea W*

            When I was looking at old documents on my recent trip the handwriting on most documents, especially the important and lengthy legal documents like leases, loans, and wills was just gorgeous. I never connected it to not having modern inventions like the typewriter, but…duh! Now I understand why there was so much focus on handwriting in schools. It was an essential skill the way learning a keyboard is today.

        3. little Cindy Lou who*

          I’ll never forget a particular history teacher of mine in high school who said to me on the last day of class: “God bless you, Cindy, and with that handwriting, you better be a doctor!”

    5. Adara*

      If you want to improve your handwriting, maybe practice writing better? Get one of those penmanship books elementary students use when they’re learning to write and through the lessons. Like anything else, getting better will take effort and practice.

    6. danr*

      As a male with terrible handwriting, I print when writing in a card. I take my time and go slowly. Then I’ll carefully print my name. Actually, many people, male and female have terrible handwriting. And many people have good handwriting. My excuse is that I’m a lefty. :)=

      2. twig*

        Another woman with terrible hand-writing here. I, too, have been asked to write something (ie address greeting cards etc) so that it will “Look nicer.” When that happens, I usually tell the person that my handwriting isn’t pretty.

        I personally believe that handwriting is kind of ‘genetic’ for lack of a better word. (my whole family has iffy hand-writing — my mom used to have perfect architect printing (she’s an architectural drafter) but that has gone by the wayside in the last 25 years or so since she made the transition from hand-drafting to CAD. Now she’s got sloppy handwriting like the rest of us)

        What I do, when I need to write something NEATLY and LEGIBLY — is print in all caps, using Larger Letters where standard capitalization would go. Also — I write as slowly as time will allow — in order to focus on neatness and spacing. (I always had a hard time remembering to leave adequate spacing between words for some reason)

        Sorry for the novel, but I feel you on the *shame* of having sloppy writing. Aim for legible. No one really cares if your writing is pretty — it’s about what it says, not how it looks.

      3. Ezri*

        I’m a woman with obsessively neat handwriting, but it’s always regarded as an oddity rather than an expectation.

    7. Cambridge Comma*

      Replace the card, it’s not worth feeling bad over, and because it’s a sympathy card.
      (Find someone in your office who is overly proud of their beautiful handwriting and have them do it.)
      For the future, you could make yourself a handwriting font with your own handwriting and install it on your computer. That way you only need to get every letter nice once.
      I don’t think it will hold you back in your career (unless you are a calligrapher). I have nice handwriting, but no-one ever sees it.

      1. S. Jay*

        Thank you! I did end up buying a new card and asked one of the staff members to write it out for me. She has beautiful writing and didn’t mind at all. I also explained to my boss that I had her do it and he didn’t care at all. Now I know better for next time! Thanks for the feedback :)

        1. fposte*

          I had a colleague for a while who had the most beautiful and individual handwriting. We kept telling her it should become a font.

    8. Another HRPro*

      As a fellow person with horrible handwriting, what I do when the writing is for someone else (i.e., not just notes to myself), I treat it like drawing. If I were to ask you to draw a picture, you would take your time and carefully move the pen/pencil in a way to clearly make items. Do the same thing for your writing. It is slow and annoying, but it works.

    10. Vacation Sub*

      In today’s smartphone/texting/keyboarding world most of us don’t really get enough practice actually writing, to the point where many schools aren’t even bothering to teach cursive anymore.
      You could practice more – yes those books that elementary school kids use. Hmmm – wondering if there are adult versions of those.
      Also – do you have hand/arm/wrist problems? Arthritis since I was a pre-teen means my handwriting sucks massively and it’s really hard for me to write out stuff.

      1. fluffy*

        Yes there are adult versions. Improve your handwriting by Sassoon seems popular. Find it at a library

        1. TootsNYC*

          I’m not sure you need adult versions, to be honest. It’s the same skill. Just pick whichever grade level seems to start where your own skills leave off.

          1. Vacation Sub*

            Yes, but learning as an adult is different than as a child and there are some specific things that need to be addressed. Here is an interesting workbook from the National Adult Literacy Agency, Dublin
            https://www.nala.ie/sites/default/files/publications/better_handwriting_for_adults.pdf

            Use phrases you are likely to use instead of the dull crap we give to children when learning.
            When teaching reading to adults (whether learning English or never learned) you have much better success if they are reading things written for teens/adults rather than kindergarten/elementary school kids. A matter of respect and being treated as an adult, not a child.

            1. Bea W*

              This is a great guide! Finding the right pen makes a big difference for me. If I have a pen I find difficult to hold comfortably or doesn’t write smoothly enough my handwriting looks like crap no matter what. Thanks for linking this.

      2. S. Jay*

        No joint issues that I’m aware of. I think as a kid (and probably so still today) I rushed through things and I never really took the time to learn to write neatly. I’m discouraged by it now and often wonder if it’s too late to go back and relearn how to write neatly!

    11. Retail Lifer*

      This is an odd quirk and probably applies to no one else in the universe, but I’ll share just in case. My handwriting and printing are terrible. For some reason, when I’m writing down something for myself I always tilt the paper. The top right hand corner always winds up higher. I have no idea why I do this but I always have. When I need to write something legibly, I slow down and straighten out the paper. That somehow helps me write neater.

      1. LeahS*

        Retail Lifer: ME TOO! You aren’t the only one. But then again, I can’t do anything in a straight line. I can’t draw one, I can’t even walk in one. I would fail the heck out of a field sobriety test.

        Like you, I work in retail. I occasionally will have to hand-print small signs to stick on displays. It’s so embarrassing. I am going to make a conscious effort to straighten out the paper/poster board from now on. I just realized this may be part of my problem :)

        I also substitute teach and have all but given up on the whiteboard because it’s so embarrassing. It’s a little surprising that none of my students have been accused of forging written hall passes and tardy excuses :). Fortunately, there are still many high schoolers who enjoy writing on the board, so I just solicit volunteers to write assignments, directions,
        etc.

        OP: I totally feel your pain! Im glad you asked this and am going to try some of these suggestions as well!

        1. Bea W*

          I do this! My writing was neat when I was a kid but lines were always slanted. I held the paper at an angle sometimes even fully sideways. Trying to write on a straight piece was uncomfortable. I think the tilting was a natural compensation response. When I wrote on the board my sentences always slanted as well no matter how hard I’d try to keep them straight.

        2. LeahS*

          I think the tilting the paper is pretty natural, but to a lesser degree.

          Most people are still able to still write without trailing all the way up and to the right. I can’t speak for the others, but in my case I’ll unconsciously keep tilting the paper more. Plus I have a horrible time writing in a straight line as it is :)

        3. Not So NewReader*

          I thought we were taught to tip the paper. I think there is something about the awkwardness of writing as you move across the paper further away from your body. I can’t picture holding the paper straight and being able to write. I don’t think that would work out well for me.

      3. Melissa*

        My handwriting is pretty decent but I tilt the paper, too! I’ve been doing it since I was a child, and I have no idea why.

    12. Natalie*

      Practice this sentence: “Oh, you don’t want me to write that either. My handwriting is awful.”

    13. T3k*

      I feel for you. I’m also female and am notorious for having bad handwriting (it’s not messy, per se, but really tiny and hard to read to the point I’ve been asked by past professors to type up my in-class essays).

      If you can, I’d submit a typed job application (I’ve had to re-do a 4 page one once because my handwriting messed it up). As for cards, write slowly and in print.

    14. Ad Astra*

      I would be a little offended if someone assumed I had nice handwriting just because I’m a woman. Do you work in some kind of administrative assistant-type role? I’m surprised that you run into problems with your handwriting so often, since people rely so much on typing these days.

      I don’t have great handwriting either, but it gets better when I slow down. And if it’s something important, sometimes I’ll write lightly in pencil to make sure it looks as good as I can make it and then go back over it with a pen.

      1. S. Jay*

        I don’t think it was necessary expected of me because I’m a woman, it was more attributed to my role in the organization. I think I personally put the gender spin on it because growing up all my female friends had pretty handwriting and I didn’t.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        It could be that the boss assumes just about anyone’s handwriting is nicer than his. I have meet people who feel this way and are quite willing to find someone else to write something that needs to be presentable.

    15. Hlyssande*

      I’ve also developed fairly bad handwriting. I think a large part of it may be that there isn’t the repetitive practice in grade school anymore.

      Both of my parents have lovely handwriting despite using computers for years (my mom was a medical transcriptionist for 20), and my mother attributes it to the long hours spent practicing when she was in grade school.

      Practice definitely makes perfect. Slowing down helps.

    16. matcha123*

      My handwriting was never great. What I’ve done over the years is to find handwriting styles I like and copy them. I also slow down when I need to write something nice, like a card, and put a bit more effort into making my letters look nice.

    17. rek*

      I would say my early parochial school cursive writing training has far more to do with my legible handwriting then my double-x chromosome. ;-) That said, I agree that printing (carefully!) may solve your problem. Also, you may want to look into a calligraphy course. I took one through my local adult education classes, and it taught me a lot about forming each letter when printing. (Obviously, you’re not usually going to be writing with a calligraphy pen-and-ink set up, but the concepts will help your “regular” printing, too.)

    18. JC*

      I also have terrible handwriting. I find that in this day and age, I can almost always get by with typing things instead of handwriting (such as forms). If I get someone who wants me to be the one to write the greeting in a card, I hold firm and insist that I don’t want to because my handwriting is terrible. I have been embarrassed about my handwriting at some occasions, but I just try to forget about it and move on.

      I’m also female, and I do think that people generally unconsciously expect women to have better handwriting than men, and ask women to write the greeting on the card more often than asking other men. Not true in our cases!

    19. AnotherFed*

      I’m female and I’ve been told I write like an angry man, but I can read it (and so can they, even if it looks angry to them), so who cares? Do you want to write prettily because that’s something you want, or because you think it’s expected of you? As long as your writing is legible and your spelling and grammar are fine, I see no cause for concern or embarrassment on your part.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Words and letters close together and probably presses down HARD on the paper.

        2. AnotherFed*

          Sharp letters, not rounded, and I do press down too hard, so depending on the pen I’m using, I either get a very thick line or obvious indents in the paper. It doesn’t help that if I’m writing something for others to see, I use all caps so that it’s easier to read.

    20. nep*

      Are children still learning to write cursive in school? I reckon it depends on the school. Seems to me ridiculous and sad not to teach people to hand write.

        1. Tau*

          Although the issue with not learning cursive, I’d think, is that it makes it much harder to *read* cursive later. I did learn cursive, but I never learned another handwriting style that was used in Germany some decades ago. Now I struggle to read any of the postcards or letters my grandmother left behind.

          1. Bea W*

            I was able to read cursive before I could write it, but I remember my sister could not read cursive at all until she learned it well enough at school. My mother always wrote in cursive, and my sister had to remind her to please print if she needed to write something down for her because she could not read cursive writing, not even my mother’s beautifully neat cursive writing. My sister otherwise found reading easy and was above grade level in that skill, but cursive English may as well have been Chinese when she looked at it.

            There has been discussions lately about not teaching cursive in school, but I think not doing so will put future generations at a disadvantage because it does impact their ability to read things that are hand written, including historical documents and things that have important personal value and contain family history like grandmother’s postcards.

            Maybe 100 years from now it won’t matter as much to most people, but we’re still in a time period where whole generations corresponded in cursive and even wrote school essays in cursive. I know I did when I was growing up. I’m not that old. Typewriters weren’t used for high school work, and computers word processing and ink-jet printers were not yet common household or in-school items. It wasn’t until the generation after my own (my children if I’d had any – so my nieces, nephews, and friends’ children) where computers started replacing handwritten documents.

    21. AT*

      Try changing styles!

      I went to a public school in England that was stuck in the 1950s and learned to write cursive with a fountain pen and inkwell. Then I found myself in a workplace in another country with these…biro…things.

      Fortunately, because of my particular profession, people just laugh it off and go “oh yeah, AT, she’s got typical doctor’s handwriting!” But I knew I had to be legible for some things, so I literally learned to write all over again in a printing style. So now, I have two “fonts”, if you will – Lucida Calligraphy (only, more old-fashioned) and Arial. If someone else needs to read it, I’ll switch to Arial; if it’s my own notebook or post-its, I can happily scrawl away and turn the page into some sort of typographical orgy.

      And vice-versa – if you’re already printing, try learning cursive. Good luck!

        1. Bea W*

          My mother was from the Baby Boomer generation and learned to write like this in the US using an inkwell. I think by the time she was in middle school or high school they had been mostly replaced by the ballpoint pens.

          I can’t remember if it was my mother or my grandmother who used to tell me stories about how boys would dip the end of girls’ pony tails in the ink wells. It may have been both!

      4. Tau*

        I had an inkwell in high school too! Not actually in school, though. It was… we had to use fountain pens up until the later years and you could either buy these little one-use plastic cartridges where the cost added up quite a bit over time and which resulted in a lot of waste, or you could buy a refillable one and an inkwell. Which I opted for.

        That said, I was very aware of the existence of biros and desperately glad when I was allowed to switch. Fountain pens are a messy business.

    22. Penguin*

      Look into cursive Italic practice books! Cursive Italic is much easier to read and write than traditional cursive.

    23. Bea W*

      Maybe your not missing a gene at all. Maybe you got the gene that makes people doctors but you just don’t know it. :)

    24. The IT Manager*

      I think it’s a lot about practice’ although, some kids are better than others from grade school. I used to have better hand writing, but I barely hand write anything any more and practically nothing in cursive because I am very much out of practice.

      I do agree with what others have said – block print in caps when you’re filling out forms. Get others to handwrite cards for you.

    25. LQ*

      I once had a teacher tell me she thought I was a guy because of my handwriting (despite my very feminine name) so I get that. But really, just say “I have really horrible handwriting, you might want to try someone else.” Especially if there are people coming to you because you are a woman and assuming that woman=neat handwriting. The majority of time you don’t really need to hand write things so I just let my apparently masculine handwriting go.

      If you really do want to make it better go slower, go neater, and practice. Over and over and over. It’s really just a matter of focus and practice.

    26. Emily, admin extraordinaire*

      My handwriting wasn’t horrible, but it was pretty juvenile– like I was about 17 instead of almost 30– so a few years ago, I looked in to handwriting courses for adults. I ended up buying Write Now by Barbara Getty and Inga Dubay (who have developed a highly-regarded handwriting curriculum for kids), which is a workbook that helps you learn to write in italic handwriting. After a lot of practice and getting out of old habits, it worked great– my handwriting now isn’t an exact copperplate of italic, and elements of my old style still remain, but it’s much more mature. Highly recommended– it’s available on Amazon for about $18.

      Also, I’ve found that no matter what the style I’m using, my handwriting looks terrible with a smooth and/or ballpoint pen. I need at least a bit of friction to not be all over the place. Try to find pens that are a tiny bit scratchy. My favorite are Pilot G2 .07 in black. Best pens ever. (I’m also fond of fountain pens, but those aren’t super common and can be pretty expensive, so I stick with the Pilot G2 .07’s at work and such).

    27. Chris*

      I have terrible handwriting too. While it can be annoying when filling out a card or something, I’ve decided that I don’t care. Among all the various skill building I’d like to do in my life/career, this falls no where near the top of my list.

      1. Clever Name*

        This. Seriously. I’m a woman, and I have positively atrocious handwriting. I have always had bad handwriting. Got “C”s in handwriting all through elementary school. My son also has terrible writing (so terrible that the OT volunteered some of her free time to teach him keyboarding). I’ve had coworkers tell me, “If you’d just slow down and take your time it would look better.” Sadly, slowing down and trying to write neatly makes it worse. So, I’ve decided I’ll do the best I can and not really worry about it. Neat handwriting just isn’t a requirement for my job, so I just plain don’t care.

        I mean, you can try to practice and get nicer handwriting, but only do it if you really want to.

    28. Not So NewReader*

      Wow. 83 comments. I never realized writing was such a thing.

      Maybe someone here will know about this. Recently, I met two people (who do not know each other) and they both write with a pen between their index finger and their middle finger (As opposed to index finger and thumb. What they do- the pen is held at a midpoint between the index finger and middle finger. I hope this makes sense.). Is there an advantage to this? I have never noticed anyone doing this before.
      Maybe this is something OP could try?

      1. misspiggy*

        Yes, and there are tons of adaptive pens available for people with various grip problems.

      2. Bea W*

        I have always held my pen with my middle and index fingers and thumb. I even have a callous at the top knuckle on my ring finger where the pen rests while I’m holding it. It feels weird when I try to write with the pen between my thumb and index finger only, not as steady. My sister and a friend of mine hold their pens in some completely different way where it almost looks like they are gripping it almost like like a handle. They are holding it They are the only two people I have seen hold a pen this way. Neither of them have great handwriting. My printing is neat, but my cursive style is very scrunched together. It’s neat but can be hard to read. I have a hard time writing neatly holding a pen between my index finger and my thumb. I think it comes down to fine motor skills. Holding a pen in a pincer grip requires fine motor skills, and we’re all a bit lacking in that department.

    29. Jessie's Girl*

      I also have awful handwriting (due to years of debate while in high school). You just need to take a breath and write slowly. It’s ok that it takes you longer to write if your end goal is something legible.

    30. catsAreCool*

      I had terrible handwriting until I took a class in it. To be fair, I was still a teenager at the time, but that might help if it’s something you’re worried about.

  9. Thinking out loud*

    My question is about managing when you aren’t doing the work yourself on a day to day basis. I’ve always managed projects where I was also one of the “foot soldiers,” and I feel like that helps me to understand the work the team is doing, which in turn informs my planning and helps me to brief status. I’ve recently accepted a new job where I think I’ll be doing more project management and less “actual work,” so my question to all of you is: How do you manage when you don’t do the work? I want to avoid just copying status from one place to another and be sure I’m really adding value.

    1. Future Analyst*

      I think it helps to have a very clear understanding of the process of the work, even if you’re not doing it yourself. (Before DEF happens, ABC needs to be cleared by group 1, and OPQ needs to run simultaneously as LMN; XYZ can’t go out unless RST has been approved by groups 2 and 3.) This may take a while (since it’s easier to get the process down pat when you’re the one doing the work, but make sure to really use your SMEs to build a clear picture of what’s happening.

      Also, keep a calendar, org chart, and project list handy at all times: this will help you keep the different moving parts going, and ensure that you’re not missing key parts of the project. The last thing you want to do is hit a deadline and realize that even though you have all the parts together, your key checker is out for the next two weeks, and you can’t get anything approved unless it’s been checked.

    2. Another HRPro*

      It is all about how you can add value. I oversee some very technical folks. They are great at what they do and I frankly do not have the skills to do their jobs. But I have different skills. I am able to help them do their jobs better by asking questions, brining up things they haven’t thought about, helping to prioritize work, developing their non-technical skills, etc. Think about what skills and abilities you bring to the table and apply those to leading others.

    3. TootsNYC*

      I try to always do a little bit of the work. And think about the processes as I do.

      I try to observe closely.

      I try to have an open relationship with the people below me so I can hear what’s slightly slow, fiddly, running into snags from other people. My job is to clear away obstacles for them, so I ask them about obstacles often, and react well when they bring them. As a result, I have people who bring me problems (and sometimes solutions); I don’t have to go for as many of them.

      1. TootsNYC*

        Oh–one thing where I think I add value is in identifying fiddly things and streamlining them. That takes getting to know the tools well, and looking for things taht are unnecessarily hard. Example: I just linked everyone to an InDesign dictionary on the server–nobody in my department, not even previous managers, had done this before. It’s small, but it’s forward movement.

        Also–look for the things that -only- you can do (in my case: staffing; enforcing things with other departments; negotiating with our manager), and -do them-. That earns respect and makes my team trust me, so they bring me other problems to solve.

    4. AnotherFed*

      Looking at the people who I’ve found to be great project managers supervising me, the best things are to know your people and know how far you can let them go, then give them their priorities and send them off, and be there to apply leverage or adjust cost/schedule/scope when needed. A big part of that is staying out of the way (and keeping other people out of the way) of the people who’ve got it together and can be trusted to bring up problems they need help with and not distract with what doesn’t need help.

    5. Clever Name*

      I’m a foot-soldier doing technical work, and the best PMs I’ve worked with are the driving force that moves the project forward. They set and communicate timelines and priorities. They check in with staff to monitor progress. They periodically check in with the client if they are waiting for client-furnished information, and then let the staff know what the deal is. It’s really frustrating working for a client who waits months to get you information, and then when they get it to you they demand an immediate turnaround. The PM can help mitigate this through communicating the situation to the staff, as well as occasionally “poking” the client. They help facilitate communication with the client and between teams.

  10. Random Reader*

    Happy Friday! What have been some successful wellness initiatives in your workplaces? A couple of years ago, we had a wellness committee that was unfortunately disbanded. Next week, HR has organized a wellness task force meeting to talk about new initiatives. So far I’m bringing up:
    • A wellness fund (similar to a professional development fund) that could be used to subsidize gym memberships, weight management programs, etc.
    • HR buying pedometers and exercise balls in bulk and offering them at as free or at a discounted rate
    • Healthy snacks in the cafeteria, like fruits and veggies

    Thoughts?

    2. AndersonDarling*

      I can’t speak to any that succeed, all our’s failed. We had subsidized fancy pedometers and that was interesting for about two months, then everyone fell off the waggon. We get emails for fun-runs and charity walks, but it is the same core fitness group that goes to them. We had a nutritionist come in and give a presentation on easy, healthy dinners to make during the week. I’m using one of the recipes on a regular basis, but it is hard to quantify the impact overall.

    3. Future Analyst*

      These sound great. My husband’s work organizes a volleyball league every summer (no pressure to anyone, just an open invite to people at the beginning to join), and they organize it so that they have 15ish people on each team, but only 7-8 need to show up at any given time. That way it’s not too binding for anyone, and people can do something lightly active once a week.

      1. Sunflower*

        My friend has this at her company but it’s kickball. It’s great because it’s easy and doesn’t take much skill so it encourages people who aren’t super athletic to join in.

    4. LBK*

      I haven’t done one personally but my mother and sister have pedometer challenges at their offices that have been wildly successful – you input your steps and there’s leaderboards by individual and by department/team that everyone can see. It actually gets pretty competitive because it doesn’t necessarily require being that athletic or doing a true workout to earn steps.

    5. Cambridge Comma*

      Letting people get out of work early enough that they still have the energy to exercise if they want to.

    6. TNTT*

      I think before we can answer this, you need to think hard on what you will consider a “successful” initiative. Will it be a high percentage of participation? Weight loss on behalf of your employees (boy I hope not)?

    8. Another HRPro*

      I’ve read studies that show many wellness initiatives that are about outright changing behavior aren’t effective as those that participate are those that would have done so before (gym memberships). But initiatives that nudge people who would be willing to do the healthier options but don’t due to time constraints or easy availability of poor choices. One example (I can’t remember which company) changed the layout of their cafeteria so that healthy food was easiest to get. The candy, chips, etc. was still available but you had to ask for it. They saw a huge increase in those making healthier choices.

      1. Sunflower*

        I like everything you’re saying here. The biggest issues with staying healthy all revolves around time. I went to the gym in college so much- sometimes twice a day because I was so bored. Now it’s impossible to squeeze in. Time constraints are probably the biggest leader of bad food choices as well. I like the idea of asking for the bad food. Some people might be annoyed but I think it will help more than hurt.

    9. Xanthippe Lannister Voorhees*

      The insurance company my employer is partnered with has a $200 a year subsidy for “Fitness related” expenses which covers classes and equipment. It has definitely motivated me to take advantage of that reimbursement. There are also free and fee-based fitness classes offered before, during lunch, and after work. Most are well attended and very appreciated (we are located on a college campus though, and thus have the facilities in place for that kind of offering).

      1. Brownie Queen*

        Whatever you do, please do not put the scale and blood pressure monitoring equipment in the same office as HR. They did this at a job I was at years ago and the HR lady that was at the front desk was a real gossippy cow. After a few people heard second hand comments about their weight etc. after using the equipment, no one used it again.

    10. setsuko*

      What are your goals for this scheme? Do you want people to :
      * lose weight
      * increase their physical fitness
      * improve their mental health
      * improve their work-life balance
      * take fewer days off sick
      * increase their productivity
      * reduce their medical bills (not from the US, so I don’t get how this works)

      I get that all these things are nice to have, but I think that they have very different solutions.

      Some of these might be helped along by the schemes you are suggesting. Others might be best dealt with by improving medical insurance, or might require a culture shift – encouraging employees to take vacation, stay home when they are sick etc .

      I’m pretty sure that you don’t have the authority to make those changes. I just think it would be useful to think this out, so that you are clear on what you can and can’t tackle given the resources that you have.

    11. Sunflower*

      I think the biggest problem with wellness is that people don’t have time to be healthy. It’s hard to find the time to exercise or cook food ourselves. I’m not sure who would be qualified to do this but I think if you could find someone to come in and teach how to eat healthy on a money and time budget that would be a big help. I know doing meal prep one day of the week is a huge and if you could find someone to come in and show how to do this, meals to make. Or maybe a subscription to some sort of magazine or video service that is similar?

      1. Charlotte Collins*

        This reminds me – there is also a fitness library. You can check out DVDs and books related to various aspects of fitness (from smoking cessation to managing diabetes to healthy cooking to just plain exercising). I think this is a nice option, as we have a lot of people who live in rural areas and can’t always get these materials from a local library. (I like to review cookbooks and DVDs before I make a commitment to buying them.)

    12. TootsNYC*

      I can’t say this would be successful, because I’ve never seen it done, but I’d love to have my company set aside a conference room w/ a DVD to play fitness tapes, so I could go “take a class” at 4pm, or something. So, no instructor, no machines, but something that would get me moving, and some people to do it with.
      Maybe even find something that doesn’t work up that much of a sweat (so people don’t need to change out of their work clothes) or use much space.

      At one place, a guy on staff had a meditation/relaxation session in one of the conference rooms for a little while–it was well attended.

      I know someone whose company has well-attended yoga classes on site.

      1. Stitch*

        This is what I’d like most. I go stir crazy sitting in an office all day. I do push ups and handstands in the hallway by the bathroom throughout the day. Boy, I’d LOVE a room where it wouldn’t be awkward for me to do 15 minutes of yoga or something.

        1. Stitch*

          Oh, forgot to mention. We have an on-site gym (bit, multi company building) but it requires a separate membership and it’s only worth it if I can take a full hour out for a class. I really prefer (and there are great health and productivity benefits to) doing small activities throughout the day.

    13. Ad Astra*

      It bothers me that so many “wellness initiatives” are focused on weight loss. Even in the case of overweight people, becoming a smaller person isn’t typically what improves their health — it’s the change in their habits. Everyone’s health can be improved by cutting out junk food and being more active, so why make it about weight? It’s gross.

      That said, I think the most helpful wellness initiatives focus on access. Put healthy options in your company cafeteria or vending machines. Hold clinics so employees can get flu shots at the office. Then let your employees leave at a decent hour so that can de-stress.

      1. TootsNYC*

        This is an interesting point–and it might fuel more participation if your “conference room fitness” classes were more about flexibility, joint strength, or just generally moving more.

    14. Natalie*

      If it’s not already covered by your insurance, smoking cessation. And if it is covered by your insurance, make sure people know about that.

    15. setsuko*

      Why not send out an anonymous SurveyMonkey type questionnaire to find out what people want? For example, would they prefer in-house classes (as suggested above), or gym membership subsidies.

    16. S*

      One of my old jobs offered flex hours so you could take some time during the day to go out to the gym if you wanted. We also had a stack of guest passes for a gym that was a block away in one of the drawers and you were more than welcome to take one when you wanted to.

    17. JC*

      What would success look like, exactly? I would like those things, and I would probably take advantage of the gym membership subsidy and fruit in the cafeteria. But since I eat fruit on my own and already belong to a gym, they wouldn’t necessarily make me healthier, just happier.

      On the other end of the spectrum, my employer-provided health insurance this year had a program where they gave you a serious amount of cash for going to a primary care doctor by a certain date, and some more cash if you met certain health criteria at the visit (blood pressure, cholesterol, non-obese BMI, etc). I thought it was a great idea, especially since most of the money was just for going to the doctor and not for hitting the targets, so it wasn’t as fat-shamey as some of these programs can be. But I ended up being too lazy to make the appointment, even with the money attached. So it was a great idea , but in my case it was not successful in changing my behavior.

    18. Lucky*

      Standing desks or desk platforms that adjust up and down. Expensive, but about 1/3 of my current office uses them, even those in the cubefarm.

      1. Dot Warner*

        Second this! My productivity and mood are so much better when I get to use a standing desk!

    19. Steve G*

      We did the pedometers thing at Past Co and it was awesome! You could do a team or individuals, and they have bands to win gift cards, must do 10K, 15K, 20K steps X # of days per week every week and meet a weekly total to win, and a separate prize for who had the most #s of steps.

      The one bad part was that they had a chart of steps-t0-exercise that they let people use to get credit for other exercise. Well, guess what happened. Someone jogs 4 MPH and puts it as “intense aerobics,” um, no, it may feel intense to you if you are in bad shape, but it is not intense. Same for other forms of exercise, everyone was getting all of these thousands or even tens of thousands of extra steps per day for “intense” workouts, and you have to question how intense these workouts actually were. I would assume an intense weight session is what Channing Tatum or Chris Pratt did to prep for movie roles, but you had people getting credit for “intense weight sessions” even though they could barely do 25 pushups in a shot. So if you do it, I highly recommend that only steps count.

    20. blackcat*

      I think free healthy snacks, letting people use exercise balls instead of chairs, and offering a standing desk option (there are things that attach to regular desks or even office chairs that run $200 or less) would be popular.

      I’m always pro healthy snacks.

    21. Kyrielle*

      Disclaimer: I am at a large company, some of these may not make sense for a smaller company.

      Things we have that I at least love, all of which are optional (this is critical!):
      * On site gym. (Gym memberships offered would be nice for a smaller company, for a decent gym nearby, I think.)

      * Cafeteria with healthy food options (but not purely what people think of as ‘health food’ – healthy choices within standard American fare, with a few outliers

      * Our health insurance includes Rally (werally dot com), which basically lets you pick things to do to improve your health (and take a health survey) and get points, which you can use to enter drawings for free stuff. Yeah, it’s not much, but it’s completely free to the employees and it’s actually a decent motivator.

      * Presently, they’re doing a Thrive Across America challenge with prizes for participants (you participate and log something, you are in the drawing, not ‘the biggest exerciser’ type prizes). Teams optional – you can sign up with or without a team.

      * Have a culture that accepts someone’s dedication to their fitness as important/relevant: no one bats an eye if someone leaves for an hour or two in the middle of the day to go swimming or to a yoga class, as long as they’re putting in their hours. People put together games – basketball, soccer, etc. – with teams mostly formed from employees and play after work. Etc. But I will note, I have never seen anyone shamed or negatively-commented for their fitness level either – it’s YOUR dedication to your fitness that’s important, not anyone else’s.

      That last is really tricky and can really at most be encouraged, not forced, I think – but it’s amazing, and awesome. I never thought I’d be happily jumping on fitness initiatives, but I am, and it’s because they’re not forced and there’s no criticism or ‘failure’ for not doing them or for trying and missing.

      1. TootsNYC*

        an on-site gym is awesome. But may have space/money/liability problems, which is why I like the “conference room exercises on video” idea.

    22. Charlotte Collins*

      Our internal health team is awesome. They are dedicated beyond most other people. Here are some highlights:

      We have a local company that comes in and provides group exercise classes. Employees have to pay themselves, but the cost is much lower than if they went through a gym (about $3-5/class for a multi-week class), and the convenience is great! The classes are held before and after working hours, and some are available during lunch time. The important thing is to have a range of types of classes for multiple skill levels. But yoga on a Friday afternoon can’t be beat. :)

      We also just started reimbursement up to $150 for purchasing fitness equipment, gym memberships, and community-supported agriculture (CSA) shares. And we’re a drop-off site for a CSA – I love getting fresh eggs, veggies, and fruit at work!

      We also have challenges and contests – a lot of them are based on educating about health and having employees track healthy behavior. Some are done as competitions (I completely failed at the Burpee challenge), but many are just done as random drawings based on turning in your (confidential) participation sheet. I like the fact that this one everyone gets a chance to win a prize.

      Also, don’t neglect mental health. I loved the free meditation classes that we done a number of years ago – I should suggest we do this again.

      Most important, the people in charge of this are really responsive. They routinely survey people to see what they want and what they thought of the programs. Also, make sure the healthy snacks are also tasty. (Sorry cafeteria – you will not tempt me with a mealy Red Delicious apple.)

    23. J*

      I wish we had a shower in our office. I bike to work and have to wash up in the bathroom sink.

      1. Charlotte Collins*

        I make this comment on every health survey we get. (By the way, “Yes to Blueberries” towelettes are great if you need to freshen up after exercising before going to your desk. They are fairly thick, smell great, and don’t bother sensitive skin.)

    24. brightstar*

      Natalie already mentioned this, but if you can add or advertise smoking cessation programs, those have a huge and almost immediate impact on health.

    25. Clever Name*

      In addition to what you suggested, howabout flexible schedules that allow staff the ability to exercise when they want, whether it’s in the AM, PM, lunch, or 3 PM or whatever. Encouraging a healthy work-life balance helps keep people mentally and physically healthy. On-site showers would be amazing, but is probably beyond the scope of a wellness initiative.

    26. JenGray*

      For Christmas, the boss bought everyone Fitbits and now we comes up with challenges. The last one we did the employees were divided up into teams and we “walked” to Mexico City. So if you decided to do something like buying something for someone than make sure you have ideas on how to use the item- that keeps people engaged. Also, keep in mind that some of these things will be personal to people- I like the fitbit I got but if I was going to buy one for myself it wouldn’t have been this one. My point is that not everyone will appreciate the gift in the same way.

    27. Lulubell*

      I have to say, my company is pretty good in this area. Though, how “successful” they are for the company, I have no idea. Here’s what we get, off the top of my head:
      – $250 annual reimbursement for gym membership, fitness equipment, or other similar expense
      – Regular/quarterly massage days – they bring in therapists to offer 10 minute chair massages
      – Regular on-site seminars with free lunch on health/wellness subjects – I have never been to one but they keep having them, so I imagine they are well-attended
      – Voluntary fitness challenges – a month of squats, a month of crunches, etc.
      Probably a couple of other things, I forget. I’m mostly thankful for the gym reimbursement. :)

    28. Anna*

      One of the things our HR and committee did, which was a lot of fun and a great break from the norm, was to arrange a walking scavenger hunt. So we were given a short list of things to see that you could take photos of in a 1.5 mile radius around the building where our office was. We had about two hours to complete the list and get back to the office. It only happened once before I left, but the idea was that it was something special that promoted getting out of the office and moving.

    29. Alice*

      Beware of healthy snacks. An old employer spontaneously bought a few large bags of extremely tasty nuts and dried fruit. They were gone in like two days, and everyone was bummed. Luckily we had a budget for them after that.

    30. asteramella*

      If you are in the U.S., ensure that HR knows about the EEOC wellness program rule and complies with it. (Essentially, to avoid violating the Americans with Disabilities Act, wellness programs must be truly voluntary and not penalize non-participants or disabled participants.)

    31. LibbyG*

      Another idea: see if there’s interest in having your workplace be a pick-up site for a CSA. Being able to grab your veggies on the way out the door might be a great perk.

  11. Applesauced*

    I’m 28 but I look much younger. I had a conversation about this after a meeting with a consultant earlier this week:
    Him – “So, you’re like a year or so out of school, right?”
    Me – “Uh, a few years, yeah” (Note: 5. I have FIVE YEARS of experience)
    Him – “You look so young! You could be in high school!”
    I’m short and petite and I get carded at bars and that’s fine, but it really bothers me when I get asked about my age at work. I don’t think this guy (or any of the other people who have made similar comments) mean anything by it, but to me it feels like I’m being undermined – like there’s no way I could know what I’m talking about.
    There have been question here about this before, and I follow the suggestions – I don’t wear my super long, I dress nicely (business casual – in this case, a sheath dress and summer heels/sandals), tasteful “classic” make up… What should I have done in this situation? Make a joke? Call him out? Nothing?

    1. setsuko*

      I think that saying : “Uh, a few years, yeah” isn’t going to solve the problem. This would lead me to think that you have just left school.

      Depending on how I was feeling, and how condescending the client was, I would have said something between: a) “I’ve been working here for five years actually” delivered with a smile and b) “No. I’m 28.” delivered with a glare and followed by a comment about work.

      1. Future Analyst*

        Saying “I’ve been at the company for 5 years, and I helped to bring in the Chocolate Teapots account 3 years ago” may help. It confirms that you’re not that young, and highlights that actually know what you’re doing.

        (Also, sorry people are jerks!)

        1. JC*

          This happens to me, although less with age (I am 33 now). Now I am getting to an age where I actually appreciate it sometimes when someone tells me I look young! But of course, like you, I feel undermined when someone says it to me in a professional setting. In fact, just last month I gave a keynote speech at a conference, and someone came up to me afterwards just to tell me I look like I’m in high school! Um, thanks for seeking me out to tell me that instead of something related to the content of my talk.

          I do recognize that people don’t mean harm by it, and I don’t feel like being the one to make a stand to change their behavior for the future. So I usually just smile it off and ignore it. Unfortunately, when you make a big deal about a comment like that, I think people tend to overreact in a “geez, I was giving you a complement” type of way. I hate doing that and giving advice like that, because if no one tells people (and it’s usually dudes) to stop doing that, they’ll go on doing it obliviously forever.

          I think the advice to tell someone who says that your professional achievements (“I’ve been at the company for 5 years, and I helped to bring in the Chocolate Teapots account 3 years ago” is spot on, though. It highlights that you are a serious professional even if you look young.

      2. Melissa*

        I agree. I just turned 29 and I get this comment all the time; I usually smile and say “Actually, I’m 29!” or “No, I’m actually about 7 years out of college now.”

    2. Dasha*

      Ohh, I’m a little older than you but I have this problem as well. Recently my coworkers threw me a birthday party and when I told them how old I was they were all genuinely shocked. Also, we had a new person start and they asked if this was my first job out of college *sigh* I have ten years of experience… Any way what I’m trying to say is I can soooo relate to you.

      I think your best bet is to be direct next time. Maybe give your co-worker a warm smile and say, “Actually, I’m 28 and I’ve been out of school for a few years now and I really enjoy doing X work and I’ve gained a lot of experience in X through the years.” Also, adding some sort of lame anti-aging joke- like oh it must be all those antioxidants I eat may help lighten the mood. :)

      1. Vacation Sub*

        Turning 50 in a few days. Had to pull out my driver’s license the other day to prove that I was NOT 35. It’s fun to be hit on my people who could be me kid..

      2. Clever Name*

        Oh, and devil’s advocate here. Why does a direct statement need to be accompanied by a warm smile? Can’t she just say, “Actually I’m 28.”? I mean, you don’t have to intentionally say it in a rude manner, but why should she answer a rude question in a manner designed to preserve the feelings of the rude question-asker?

        1. Melissa*

          Well, she doesn’t have to. But this someone that you presumably need to interact with on a daily basis, or at least regularly for work. Sometimes adding some fake warmth/kindness smooths this kind of thing over to keep relations amiable, even if the other person is being rude.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          “I’ll take that as a compliment, actually I am 28 years old.”

          Age is a very hard thing to guess at. The older I get the worse I am at guessing. You could tell yourself that you are talking to an old person, that is why they can’t figure out how old you are! However, when the person apologizes to you, you can sympathetically say, “I have a tough time guessing how old people are, too.” This allows you to use your sympathy as a way to get the idea out there that “hey, it is hard to guess how old some people are” and get them thinking about that. I no longer guess ages, I am very bad at it.

    3. Amber Rose*

      I always get this, and i’m about your age. And around August I get a lot of “so, heading back to school soon eh?” type comments.

      The two routes I’ve taken are probably both awful advice though. The first is a detailed, boring detailing of how long it took to get a degree and how I’m happy to be a full time employee of Teapots Engineering. The second is something like a joke about how I keep my degree on my wall to remind me I graduated 4 years ago so I don’t feel tempted to sign up for classes.

      Unfortunately I haven’t found a way to discourage the “you hardly look older than 15!” comments. :/

      1. hermit crab*

        I have to admit, one of the great, unforeseen benefits of being in grad school is that when people ask me where I go to school I can actually answer. Previously I’d just be stammering an awkward response in an unsuccessful attempt to convey the fact that I am an adult without further embarrassing anyone. I think this grad school thing will carry me for a couple years too — “Oh, I finished up my masters last summer, so I’m back to working full-time at Company X. I’ve been there for seven years now!” seems like a fairly graceful response.

        Pro tip: Unless you are in a situation where you know that everyone is a student, don’t ask people “where” they go to school! It’s like assuming someone is a parent and jumping straight to asking her what her kid’s name is.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        “you hardly look older than 15!”

        “Please come back again and tell me that in ten years.”

        “Yeah, a few people have told me that, but I assure you I have been out of engineering school for 4 years.”

        “All those preservatives I ate growing up are really paying off for me.”

    4. Dawn*

      I think in those situations I’d say something like “Well thank God those awkward years are way behind me!” and leave it at that. Some people, dudes in particular, probably have zero idea how limiting being perceived as looking super duper young as a woman can be (isn’t that the most double edged sword ever? Women spend thousands to look young as they age, but yet looking *too* young puts you at a disadvantage.)

      I think brush it off unless someone keeps making a big point of it, in which case bring out the big guns.

    5. Amelia*

      Oh god I get this. I usually just (politely) call people out at this point. I met with a guy in a networking capacity one time and he said, “So you’re looking for your first real job?” Uh no, I have almost 4 years of marketing experience, buddy.

    6. Gandalf the Nude*

      As a member of the “You look, like, 12!” club, I feel your pain. I just do my best to be really competent at my job so that if someone thinks I’m fresh out of school, they’ll at least be impressed with how good I am even with so little experience (in their mind). It’s frustrating, but there’s only so much we can do, besides accept it and not let it bother us. And to comments like “You could be in high school!”, I respond with some variation of, “I get that a lot” and redirect back to the work topic.

      1. hermit crab*

        At least “you could be in high school!” is better than someone straight-out asking you which area high school you go to. This happened to me a couple years ago. I am 29.

        1. Gandalf the Nude*

          I don’t usually get people assuming anymore. Most folks will carefully ask around it these days, I assume because I don’t present like a high schooler (the BRF probably helps, too, now that I think of it). At 25, though, I was hired on to a design role for a theater production featuring high schoolers and folks there assumed I was also a student. But I’ll give them that one, given the context.

          1. Sparkly Librarian*

            Ha! At 25, I volunteered to help at a high school concert where my 40-ish girlfriend was on staff. I asked a teacher where I should put the boxes I was carrying in from the car, and got “You can’t use this door; go up the stairs and around to the side.” in response. Without thinking anything was amiss (other than “Oof! Stairs!” and “I don’t know my way around; is this what she meant?”), I did so. Once I’d arrived with the boxes, my girlfriend asked what had taken so long and I told her about the detour. She went over to the stage door to see what was wrong with that entrance — turns out that teacher had assumed I was a student! (In a crowd where I had just been wondering how these toddlers were already in high school; surely they were the size of middle schoolers I’d grown up with.)

    9. Christy*

      One thing I say in more casual environments is “Don’t you know to never comment on a lady’s age?”

    10. Olive*

      As someone who went through a decade of that, the best way I found to address it in a work setting was to respond to the initial comment with something like, “*small laugh* Well, I’ve been out of school long enough that I’ll take that as a compliment, thanks!” [quickly move conversation back to business] Basically something to convey: I’m older than I look, but I’m good natured about it and not offended or feeling insecure due to what you just said. Generally that shuts it down and everyone’s dignity is preserved.

      I know it shouldn’t be “a compliment” when someone says you look young, it is ageist, but when we’re talking about business situations where the goal is to keep the atmosphere comfortable and professional – I’ve just found that defusing it that way worked for me.

      1. Sarah*

        I really like this one. I’m not very confrontational, but I also want people to get the message that I have experience. My answer is usually just to state my years of experience and correct them in a friendly way – but this is better.

        If this is happening with people you don’t work closely with or have just met, and not with people who have had several interactions, you can assume you are doing the right things to present yourself in a professional manner.

        Also – to ALL OTHER PEOPLE – stop doing this. It is not a compliment in a professional environment.

    11. Anonymous Educator*

      I’m pushing 40 and have gotten this a lot—sometimes even from people my age (or younger!), and it’s annoying, but there’s not much helpful I’ve been able to do about it. I wish you the best of luck!

      1. Steve G*

        Ha! I am 34 and worked with someone 3 years older than me who used to act like we had this big generation divide. He did look older. He was able to keep up the façade that he was much older, I don’t know how he did it, how do you remove references to your age from all conversations – like, when were discussing what people did for spreadsheets before Excel (which was at least when we were in HS, if not middle school) and I was like “I was in school then,” and he just sat there nodding his head, like he knew was everyone was talking about, like he used to actually make spreadsheets in Lotus and print it on one of those 80s printers with the green ink and reams of paper with holes punched on the side (like I used in grade school, not work!). When we were talking about where we were on 9/11, I said I was still in college. He was too (grad school though) because he couldn’t admit that though, he was just like “I wasn’t in the city that day.”

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          Yup. Can totally relate.

          Yes, when you make those 80s references, I get them all. I lived through that. When you talk about high school being a long time ago, I can relate. It was a long time ago for me, too.

          So when I interact with co-workers I know for a fact are younger than I am, I still insist on not playing the “Oh, you youngsters…” card, because even if it’s true… that card is patronizing and obnoxious, and it doesn’t increase productivity in the workplace.

          1. Steve G*

            I concur, I’d hate to ever come across as condescending because of age, and it detracts from any possible mentoring that could go on. I had a coworker who was 18 years older than me and was respectful in this regard, and he ended up being my go-to person for “how did you do this before” type questions. We had a lot of cool conversations, and he had a perspective that my parent’s generation was too old to give. He was never like “oh you wouldn’t remember this,” he would say “remember when xyz happened?” and many times I did, but I was a teenager or kid or in college then so I knew what he was talking about, but didn’t have the adult perspective of the trend/old software/etc.

    12. Ms. FS*

      This happens to me too, constantly, and I’m 33. I’ve been told that I look like I’m 12! I have a 6 year old and hips to prove it! After so many people telling me this (constantly) and even referencing that they can’t believe I’m at the Director level because I look so young, I just smile and say, yeah, I get that a lot. And then I go on to the subject at hand. I’ve bitched about this to my friends, and all my older lady friends just tell me to be thankful that I look so young still because I’ll appreciate it later. So at this point I just grin and bear it and consider it a complement. NOW, if the person continues to treat me as if I’m incompetent or stupid, THEN I would call it out. But prior to that, I just let it lie.

    13. Retail Lifer*

      I get that, too. I’m close to 40 but (apparently) I might look 10 years younger. I’ve been in my field a long time (since I was 17) and I know what I’m talking about. No one mistakes me for a recent grad , but they certainly don’t give me the credit they should until I let them know I’ve been doing this for 20 years. Depending on the person and the circumstance, I’ll make a joke or I’ll flat out call them out on trying to undermine me because of how old they preceive me to be. It depends on their tone and intent.

      1. ali*

        yes, this is me exactly. I’ve got 22 years experience building websites, which is basically from the beginning of them, and I did start when I was 16. But because I look like I’m in my 20’s, and most of my coworkers are late 20s or early 30s, I often get brushed off when I have more experience than most people in the room combined. Drives me crazy.

    14. nep*

      Nothing.
      If you’re competent and know what you’re doing at work, that’s enough, no? Your performance speaks for itself, I would think. If you ever find it’s absolutely necessary for business to point out how much experience you’ve got, best just to state something matter-of-factly with no defensiveness whatsoever.

      1. fposte*

        I’m seconding this. Maybe not literally–I think “Nope, I’m not” or “Really” (not a question) are fine as a response to “I thought you were in high school.” But I wouldn’t spend time with amusing deflections, because they’re on the defensive side, and this is a dumb thing to say to somebody that doesn’t need defending against.

    15. AnotherFed*

      I’ve been getting this for years. It used to really annoy me, as I was a team lead (so what if I was also the youngest one by years?), but at this point I’m numb. I used to use replies similar to what other people have listed, but I think I was probably sounding defensive because I do a lot better now with just an amused “No.”

    16. Six For One*

      I also look very young for my age despite using all the tricks to look older (including forgoing contact lenses for glasses!). Often times people think I’m in my early to mid twenties when I’m actually 35.

      In the situation you described I would say something along the lines of “No. I look very young for my age. I’m actually rounding the bend to 30! I blame good genes.” or I might say “Actually, I’m 27.” if the person is being kind of rude.

      Personally, I feel it’s important that people know my general age since it is often equated with experience. I make an effort to bring it up or make references to growing up in the 80s… At my last job my boss recommended me for her position when she left and the owner told her I didn’t have enough experience. Turns out, he thought it was my first job because in his mind, I was in my early 20’s and had my daughter when I was in high school!

    17. ExceptionToTheRule*

      I’m 41 and look 27, although there was one woman who sits in the pew in front of me at church that keeps asking what high school I go to. I choose to think of it as a compliment at my age.

      Depending on your comfort level, you could always try this line “wow, if you were they guy guessing ages at the fair, you’d be out of a job pretty quick.” I’ve had some success with it. Delivery is important though.

      1. EmilyG*

        Thanks for this line! I’m almost forty and have still been having problems with this.

        I’m about to leave my current job and one of my coworkers asked me the other day if he could ask me a personal question now that I’m going. I mentally rolled my eyes, and he said “How old are you? Because you could be anywhere from 25 to 35.” I was 35 before I started this job.

        I find as I get older that saying “Oh, actually have a graduate degree and 15 years’ experience” comes off as arrogant and combative (maybe?) in a way that “I’ve been working here for four years” as suggested above does not. So a new line is definitely welcome.

        1. Clever Name*

          Why is it arrogant to factually state the amount of experience and education you have?

          1. EmilyG*

            I guess now that I have more experience the correction feels less like a gentle misunderstanding and more like I’m bludgeoning them over the head with it. Not that it’s my problem!

      2. Steve G*

        When I was 28 I was at my parents overnight and someone with a low car got stuck in front of it in a snow storm, because a lot of snow fell really quick and the didn’t plow.

        I helped dig her car out. The husband came back the next day to thank us, and gave my dad a bottle of wine and $10 for me “because people need it at my age.” My dad said he thought I was still in HS and would appreciate pocket money!

        2. blackcat*

          That’s when you say “Thanks! People my age do need all the help they can get with those student loans!”

      3. Nerdling*

        I like that line and have been tempted to use one like it on more than a few occasions. Just a laugh and a reminder not to quit their day job.

    18. Steve G*

      Maybe say “well this company has a problem then if its letting 12 year olds manager its million dollar per year customers,” or something equally sarcastic.

      Anyways, I hate the 30-is-the-new-20 mentality, and ageism against millennials. I had a difficult job that required lots of soft skills and lots of responsibility when I was 22 and 1/2, yes it is young, but it is not a baby, despite what the media leads us to believe.

      I was watching Charles Payne on Fox News yesterday and they were talking about 22yo Ariana Grande’s “I hate America” thing. He turns to a early 30s cohost and says something like “what is your generation’s take on this?” I was so confused. This is what age labels do. Someone who is 30 is definitely a millennial, but definitely a 90s kid, not a 2010s kid listening to and identifying with Ariana Grande’s antics. That is some of the stupidity that comes out of age labels.

      1. Melissa*

        Yeah, that always baffles me. I’m 29 and technically a millennial but a lot of these screeds talk about growing up with social media and being glued to texting since childhood and I’m like bzuh? Facebook came out when I was in college and I didn’t start texting until I was a junior in college – and on a flip phone.

    19. JenGray*

      It’s going to happen no matter what you do. Take it from someone who people always think is younger than I am. I think you just need to be prepared to make a little bit of a joke out of it- like I have been out of school for 5 years but try to laugh a little. Most people will feel embarrassed enough about making the mistake but some people are jerks. At my old job my boss used to call me the “baby of the (employee) group” (we had 14 employees) but I was in fact older than half the staff. It was just related to the fact that I looked so young- she stopped after a conversation one day with her & my coworker where I said how old I was and how old the rest of the staff was. I don’t think she meant any harm- she would always follow up when I would reminder her how old I was with “you will like that when you are older”- but it was still annoying.

    21. DatSci*

      I got this from people sometimes too when I was in my 20s. I’d just tell them (completely deadpan) “That’s such a nice compliment, actually I’m 47.” When they exclaimed I must be joking because I didn’t look 47, I told them “You’re right, I’m 48, I like pretending I’m younger.” ;)

    22. catsAreCool*

      Act like they’re paying you a compliment. Oh, you’re so sweet to say that! Actually, I’ve been here for several years.”

      If you act like you think this is a compliment, you’ll seem more mature.

  12. Mockingjay*

    Meeting Minutes update!

    After the minutes debacle 2 weeks ago between my illustrious colleague and the Admin Assistant, our Team Lead is making a case to have the Technical Writers dedicated to engineering documents. Finally, we will be able to do the work for which we were hired! The only minutes we will have to produce are for specified technical reviews, which directly pertain to the work we do, and we’re cool with supporting those.

    She collected metrics on how much time we spend on note taking and minutes preparation, as well as the number of meetings we have covered (68 for me in the past year). Bless our fancy task tracking system. We also have the support of the technical team leads. One lead is especially furious; he had deliverables due that my colleague had been working on, and they were late to the customer.

    She is also researching the purchase of recording equipment for the Admin staff to use. I pointed out that the phone system has a recording feature; most meetings include a dial in, so perhaps we can enable this feature. We are checking with IT.

    In the meantime, the Admin Assistant still has not completed the minutes. She sent my coworker emails telling him to prepare the minutes, then she would “incorporate her notes into them.” (As you may recall, she played with her phone in lieu of taking notes.) Colleague is disgusted.

    Team Lead will be making our case to the Project Lead soon. I’ll let you know how it goes.

    1. Helen of What*

      I love how your team lead handled this! May I ask which task tracking system you use?

      I’m also curious how the Admin’s manager isn’t frustrated with her yet.

      1. Mockingjay*

        We have a full suite of IBM Rational Collaborative Life Cycle Management (CLM) products and tools. It is my Nirvana developmental and informational management system. I LOVE this system. It’s very expensive, but sooo cool. (Yes, I am a geek, and proud of it.)

        One of the core components has a Work Item Task feature, with descriptions, owners, due dates, etc. The task item includes a Time Tracking tab, which records hours just like a weekly timesheet. The overview page of the task displays the total hours expended, so you can see at a glance that Percival spent 6 hours total to edit the software installation guide.

        All tasks can linked to artifacts and deliverables in the system. It can sort, link, export reports, display on dashboards. We use tasks to manage everything.

        Not all of the teams are using tasks as heavily as we do, but we keep producing tangible metrics to show the boss, so he’s pushing the others to record more. We have also realized we need to do some in-house training so people are more comfortable using it.

    2. Pineapple Incident*

      I almost missed this in the thread! So happy you have your org’s support to stop this fairly stupid upending of your workflow. Congrats! It’s nice when you are finally told you don’t have to complete certain activities, especially when all the while you were trying to tell people “this is actually notmyjob, kthanksbye.”

    3. JenGray*

      I am glad everything worked out. I am still amazed how this was not a part of the admin asst.’s job in the first place! I have been an admin for 10 years and taking notes has always been a part of my job. And playing on your phone during a meeting is not acceptable in any meeting no matter your role @ the meeting.

  13. NJ anon*

    Am starting my nonprofit. When should I tell my boss (also nonprofit)? I don’t have enough funding to quit my day job yet-that could take 6 months or so. Do I tell her now or wait until I have a better idea of when that will be. Conflict of interest?

      1. NJ anon*

        Both social services but not the same. Think domestic violence prevention vs. eliminating hunger.

    2. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      Do you have a secondary employment policy that requires you to disclose other work? If you are in any way competing with your employer for funding, donors, resources, etc. then you do have a conflict and ethically need to disclose regardless of the policy.

      1. fposte*

        That’s the part that concerns me–the funding/donors competition. I don’t know if it’s really possible to do this without risking either the appearance of conflict or actual conflict.

      2. BRR*

        The donor thing is what immediately jumped out to me. If anything even hints at utilizing current knowledge for your own fundraising you need to act.

        1. NJ anon*

          I think so too but I am just not sure how to approach her about it. My current organization is primarily government grant funded and does very little fundraising. I feel it’s unfair to say I am going to leave at some point without knowing exactly when that will be .

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            It’s so tough to start a successful nonprofit and get enough funding to pay yourself and staff that you could probably just tell your boss you’re starting this on the side without any mention that you plan to leave to do it full-time eventually; she’s likely to assume that that time will be a very, very long way off, if at all. And then if that changes at some point, you’d bring it up then.

            1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

              Yes. If someone told me they we’re doing this, I’d assume a 95% chance it won’t happen and not worry about it (not to demonstrate a lacking faith in you personally!). I would also be careful about any overlapping stakeholders (United Way, local government). I would not want my key people representing a different agency with those groups. So maybe it depends in part on what your role is now.

    3. Jerzy*

      My goal is to work for a nonprofit, so if you need a partner in this venture who has project management/communications/ government experience, let me know. I’d love to talk to you about it.

  14. GigglyPuff*

    Just figured out how to accurately use Access 2013 Update query to fill in a field of filenames in one table from the master list of filenames to the main master table. I feel like an IT superhero, and oh, did I mention it is over 36, 000 fields to update. :D

    2. Ama*

      Man, back when I used Access all the time every time a wrote a query that actually worked the way it was supposed to I felt like a genius (and it was probably nothing as complicated as what you just did — it definitely wasn’t as big a database). Congratulations!

    3. Anony-moose*

      Don’t you love those moments!

      I figured out how to run a macro in my crazy excel document and I was SO excited. Technology for the win.

    4. Elizabeth West*

      Gah, I had to use Access for a form at Exjob. I hated it! I remember how pumped I was when I figured out how to make a field accept more characters. All by myself. :) Okay, with Google’s help.

      Yay for you!!

    6. GigglyPuff*

      Thanks everyone! It really does make you feel like a genius. Excel macros are the bomb, started using those this year too.

      Now I get to move the 36,000 folders (folders not files!) from one server to another. It’s been a few minutes now, and Windows is still just “preparing to move”, and it’s almost up to 100GB.
      If this goes smoothly I’m definitely cracking up the champagne tonight. The end of an almost four year project. Luckily I’ve only been doing the last 8 months, but I like to say it’s what drove the previous person who had my job crazy enough to just not show up for work one day. But not me! Hehe ;)

  15. Amelia*

    I had the weirdest interview last week. It was for a Communications Coordinator position and as a first interview I had to give a presentation about improving their website and their communications efforts in the organization to SEVEN people in management. Again, this was a first interview. There was no phone screen. I got a reject email from them a week later. A part of me wants to believe it was a legitimate interview, but the other part of me feels like I was doing a free consulting session. Anyone ever done anything like this before?

    1. AndersonDarling*

      Wow, that’s crappy. Let’s hope that all the candidates were rejected and the recruiter was told to think about why they wasted everyone’s time. And there will be another round of interviews in a few weeks when a real system is put in place.

    2. Bend & Snap*

      Thatz not okay. How the hell are you supposed to know what needs improving? And that’s AT BEST a last-round interview assignment.

      I’m sorry.

      1. Dynamic Beige*

        It is a technique of some web developers/programmers to do what is called a “tear down” of a site, usually by screen capturing it and using that as a sample of the process of how they work on their website. To the point that some of them will send a link of said tear down to someone in the company of the website that has been torn down in the hope that this VIP will decide that the dev is brilliant and should be hired to enact these changes. There are also some web devs who will sell you a set number of hours where they will give their opinion on how your site can be improved — it’s then your choice to take that information and get a quote from them or anyone else you choose.

        So, this could have been a legitimate test to see how the candidates thought on their feet, their knowledge of trends using the company’s website which would give an idea of how they would react if a client asked them something similar. Or, it could have been a great big fishing expedition. However, to tie up the time of 7 people to interview who knows how many candidates the same way, that’s an awfully expensive fishing trip to get “free” consulting.

    3. Ad Astra*

      I once had a hiring manager seek me out on social media, interview me by phone, and then ask me to email her a bunch of feedback about their website — what worked, what didn’t, what I might do to improve. After a week or so, she responded to let me know she was behind on things but would be showing my feedback to the bosses or whoever. I followed up once or twice after that but never heard from her again. Weird.

    4. MsM*

      Ick. I’ve been part of group interviews where we asked people what they thought about the website, but it was much more informal and we were checking whether they’d taken the time to look at it. I don’t blame you for being skeptical on this one.

  16. HeyNonnyNonny*

    Just hoping for some good vibes: I’m having my first annual review next week and I’m going to push for more PTO. The kicker is that I’m at about half of industry and area standards (thanks to everyone who weighed in when I was asking around a few weeks ago), and I’m worried it’ll be too much of a stretch to get to where I really should be. Wish me luck!

    2. AE*

      The worst that could happen is they say “no” and then you’d be exactly where you are now!

  17. Gareth Keenan Investigates*

    I’d appreciate input on finding the right workplace. I know there have been some AAM posts on culture and fit but I’m not sure how to assess those things in this particular situation. I have an upcoming interview (fingers crossed it goes well!) with my current org at another location. My current colleagues don’t know I’m looking/interviewing. I’ve worked with several people from the other location and have found them to be respectful, professional, and hardworking. (You can’t really say that about most people at my current workplace.) Because my interviewers will know exactly where I’m coming from and who I’m working with, how do I ask questions that don’t make it obvious that I’m fleeing my current position? My current position is my third in just over two years, I know that looks bad but I really had no choice but to leave my last job and in my desperation, I didn’t take time to properly assess culture and fit. Suggestions for how to do so, delicately, so that I don’t keep repeating the same mistakes? I have a legitimate reason for leaving (funding cuts) so I don’t have to go into any detail on why I’m looking…but I’d like to get a feel for office culture without making it obvious that my current workplace is a bit of a mess.

    Also, just to really pick your brains, my interviewers know that I’m seven months pregnant (as noted I’ve worked with them before and at this point it’s pretty obvious). Do I still not address that until any sort of offer is extended or should I be honest about how that might impact my timeline in starting a new job?

    1. LBK*

      I’d phrase those questions as being about what works for you as an employee, e.g. “I find that working under a manager with very clear, high standards helps me be a productive employee. Can you speak a little to what the culture is around accountability in your department?” The unspoken implication may still be that your current department sucks in that regard, but without having to directly throw anyone under the bus.

    2. Chickaletta*

      I had a bad experience with a nasty coworker a few years ago and whenever I get asked questions about a conflict that stands out to me, or what type of people I don’t get along with, I’m always reminded of that one horrible person. But, I don’t want the people I’m interviewing with to think that I’m the difficult person, so I find that I have to think through my responses ahead of time so that they come across right. Usually, unless I’m pressed for it, I just don’t even mention that situation and use other examples instead. I try to always focus on the positive and talk about what I have done instead of talking about other people.

      As for questions I ask, in my last group interview I asked what was their favorite thing about working there and what was the one thing they would change. Only one person answered the second part, which to me was a red flag: why didn’t they want to talk in front of each other about what they would change? Even in the best workplaces, everyone has something they would do differently. And all seven people are perfectly happily content? No way. I don’t know if it was a personnel issue or they didn’t like the management or they were all about to bail ship or what, but something was up. Sometimes the things that don’t get said are just as telling as the things that are. Pay attention not just to what they say but what they don’t say. How do they interact with each other? Are they comfortable around each other? Does one person answer every question? Do they glance at each other before answering your questions? Are people afraid to speak up?

      Also, if anyone says “we’re like one big family!”, run. Run fast, run far.

      1. Helen of What*

        Aw, but I’ve seen the “family” comment said at places with a good culture. I wouldn’t completely rule it out :P

    3. Beancounter in Texas*

      In order to know whether you’ll fit, you need to know yourself and what helps you work at optimum performance.

      For me, I keep a running “Ideal Job Ad for Craigslist” that I update occasionally. I write it like a job posting for an employer – I’m looking for a full-time beancounting job with a small to medium sized company, where I can wear jeans everyday (and yet we’re still professional) with a healthy dose of autonomy to problem solve (i.e. no micromanaging). I also list desired benefits in order of highest priority. I haven’t actually posted it anywhere, but this is my compass.

      From there, you can pinpoint what topics you need to cover to assess whether you’ll be happy there. How does management prefer to be updated about my work? At what frequency? How do employees receive feedback? What is the dress code? Would you describe the office as fast paced or more moderately paced? I think if you just focus on their office environment, you don’t have to explain anything about your current office environment.

      As for birth and the timing of your start date, I’d wait until an offer is made. They know into what situation they’re getting. Don’t place doubts in their minds about your start date due to your pregnancy – it’s probably going to cross their minds anyway. But if you vocalize it, you may reinforce the doubt by placing it in the forefront of their minds. Good luck!

      1. Gareth Keenan Investigates*

        Thanks for the suggestions! I’m hopeful but trying to be realistic…

    4. FJ*

      I don’t know if I have any great suggestions for you, but I’m thinking about the same thing.
      I have been in informal discussions with a company that I’ve worked with before to come join them… and I liked the people and they are smart/intelligent and have a product I’m interested in… but our working relationship was terrible. We could work through design meetings, but then they never delivered… communicating about schedules was always a mess. If I ever have an interview, I’m not sure how to ask if that was a function about the corporate relationship or just the method of their workplace.

      I do like the “What’s one thing you love and one thing you would change” question… I think I’ll use that.

      I think maybe I will ask about examples… “How does the working culture deal with conflicts in project priority?”

      I don’t know if wording like “I’ve only seen your organization from the outside… how is it on the inside?” is too much of a leading question for them to answer “Oh, it’s great!” when it’s really not great.

      John

  18. Dasha*

    Does anyone have any advice on how to ask your boss to work remotely a few days a week? I’m hoping for 1 to 2 days from home.

    Background:
    – The person before me worked in the office before his wife got a job in another state and then worked 100% remotely for two years before moving on.
    – I’ve only been at this job six months.
    – My boss works remotely 2 to 3 weeks out of the month- which kind of makes things hard because I’m very independent in this role so I don’t get a ton of interaction with him.
    – I occasionally have gotten his permission to work a few days from home during bad weather or days I’ve had medical appointments.

    The reason I want to work from home a few days a week is because my poor dog is having health issues :( she needs medicine and to be let out more frequently. I obviously don’t want to go all personal and tell my boss about my dog’s medical stuff but that’s reason why- I don’t mind coming in the office.

    Is six months too soon to ask for something like this? I think that’s my main concern.

    2. AdAgencyChick*

      I think six months *might* be too soon, especially since your own boss isn’t around very much — it takes a high level of trust for an employer to say yes to work-from-home arrangements, and at six months you may not have that yet. But you know your boss better than we do — if, say, he’s already referring to you as his right hand or has otherwise given indication that he’s really happy with your work, I think it might be okay to try.

    3. LBK*

      I think it’s fine to ask after 6 months since it seems like your office has a very big existing remote work policy. If this were going to be wildly out of the norm I’d wait at least a year, but it sounds like it’s not unusual for people to have pretty heavy work-from-home schedules. A couple days a week shouldn’t be an issue.

    4. Chris*

      I would ask. When talking to your boss, I would probably approach it as a trial period. Like maybe X days/week for one or two months, then you two agree to sit down and talk honestly about how it is going. This shows that you are taking it seriously and are willing to listen to feedback if boss has concerns.

      Also, I am sorry about your dog.

    5. Wee*

      I’m planning on asking my boss the same thing. We have someone that works remotely 2 days a week now and the boss travels a lot. I’m just not sure how to word the request. Are you planning on mentioning the dog? My reason is I work better in quiet surroundings. Not sure that is a legitimate reason. Good luck! Hope you get what you want.

    6. JenGray*

      I agree with the other commenters that it wouldn’t hurt to ask. It is possible that 6 months is too short of a time to get this privilege. I think that you also might need to explain the desire especially if someone needs to be in the office & it falls to you. Also, think about whether you want this to be a permanent arrangement or temporary one while you care for your dog. If you do end up telling your boss about your dog- it might sound like it is a temporary arrangement. Or perhaps your boss would approve a temporary arrangement. Lots of possibilities if you just ask.

      1. Windchime*

        I think it depends on the office. Most of my team has a work at home day (some people have two), and we recently made a couple of new hires. They were only on the team for a matter of weeks before they also started having a work at home day. It’s perfectly OK on our team to ask for one or two days to work at home as soon as you are oriented and have a good sense of what your responsibilities are.

  19. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

    Ugh. I am so worried about the changes in overtime laws. I have several managers (and people with social worker exemption) making under $50,000 (which is on-par for our field and location). We really discourage people from working more than 40 hours in a week (and really, their jobs can be done in 40), but this means that they will lose their flex time because we truly cannot afford to pay overtime without taking services away from our clients.

    Right now, we are super flexible with scheduling. If you want to work late a few days this week, and then leave every day next week at 3pm because your parents are visiting, great! If you had a big project to finish last week, and then you want to go to yoga and come in three hours late on Monday, that’s fine. All of this will be gone. I don’t know how many people over the years have told me that the flexibility is one of their favorite parts of their job, and a big reason they stay. People can live their lives because they are not tied to the clock. They get very generous vacation time, but often use flex to to avoid taking vacation hours for little stuff so they can take full weeks a few times a year. People who do not take long vacations are grumpier, less productive, and not at their best.

    Also, there are times when an emergency or deadline comes up and it just has to be handled. Because staff have so much flexibility, there is a lot of goodwill about working a few extra hours when needed – especially when they know they can swap that time out when they want to.

    I really understand (and support!) increasing the threshold in cases where people are working tons and tons of hours for next to nothing. That sucks, and lots of companies are abusing workers under exemption laws. We’re not one of them, and it’s going to decrease quality of life for my staff, make work-life balance harder, and create logistical headaches.

    1. NJ anon*

      We will have this situation as well. Fortunately it will only affect one staff member as she is currently exempt but makes less than $50k.

    2. Sabrina*

      I think that if it’s the same week, they can still flex out the time. I’ve left early/came in late and made up the time the same week without incurring OT. I do it to avoid using PTO.

      1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

        Yeah – it’s more often in a different week. That’s what I’m worried about.

    4. fposte*

      Yeah, there’s always some collateral damage with something like this.

      I haven’t parsed the details yet, but if there’s no governmental/educational exception, that’s going to be an issue here too; we have a lot of part-time exempt employees, and none of them would make enough to stay exempt. Argh.

      1. BRR*

        I feel like being part-time inherently means a position should be classified as non-exempt (also I know you’re not the one setting the policies, well at least I think you aren’t).

        1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

          Not if their salary is over the threshold. I have a part-time staffer right now who is exempt. She supervises people and asked to move to part-time to manage child care costs. It works for both of us. She get a super flexible schedule, and I get a happy employee. It’s not that common, though, since a lot of part-time people aren’t making more than the current threshold.

        2. fposte*

          I get what you mean–I’ve also thought that if exempt means “no specific hours” then part-time exempt seems ripe for exploitation. But that’s what we’ve got, and it’s going to be a pain to change it.

        3. Clever Name*

          I used to be part time hourly (my choice), and I was classified as non-exempt, but honestly, I probably should have been exempt due to my hourly rate and my position (very autonomous, decide how much and when to work, and even what to work on, to some extent). I think my small employer did it that way to make things more consistent/easier for themselves.

          1. Anna*

            That sounds more like it would have been appropriate at a contract worker, not necessarily exempt.

    5. BRR*

      Well the good news is you have plenty of time to start preparing. Even if something is signed it will likely be help up in court. I would check into all the details of flex time first to be sure. Can you add to their PTO to compensate?

      1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

        I am hoping we will have enough time to plan. Increasing PTO is not a bad idea – it would solve half the problem, but would still leave me without available staff for emergencies or big projects that have to be completed within the week.

      2. Natalie*

        I’m not actually sure it can be held up in court in that way. It’s not a law, it’s an executive action.

        1. fposte*

          It’s also a DOL proposal now. There might be an employment lawyer who actually knows how this works, but my impression is that if it gets published as a final rule (which I suspect is a huge “if”) it’s binding.

          1. BRR*

            From what I read in the NYT (I trust them to do their due diligence because I’m certainly not going to look into it more right now), the president has the power to do this but there will likely be legal challenges and during that time courts will likely keep it from going into effect.

            1. Natalie*

              I don’t think that’s how Department of Labor rules work, though. This rule would be binding once issued, and as far as I can tell if a business even has standing to sue (which they might not), it wouldn’t keep the rule from going to into effect.

              1. Natalie*

                From a bit of googling, it looks like people have occasionally filed suit to stop these agency rules, but the rules aren’t generally stayed during the process. In order to be overturned, the rules have to be ridiculously capricious or outside of the agencies jurisdiction, and that doesn’t seem to happen that often.

                1. fposte*

                  I don’t know how much change will happen as a result of the public comment period, but it looks like that’s the time that really matters.

                  Interesting that it hasn’t really been talked about at my workplace.

    6. Retail Lifer*

      I work in a mall and I can tell you that almost 100% of us on salary in this building make under $50,000. I usually don’t work many hours over 40, but lots of stores in the mall have managers who do this regularly. With brick and mortar retail already being less than profitable and most of these stores relying on their salaried staff to work extra hours and save on payroll, I think we’re going to see more stores leave. I’m curious as to how my job will fare as well, because overtime is absolutely forbidden (we’re not profitable either) but it’s my job to cover shifts when no one else can or work extra when something’s going on. Not sure how we would handle that since I have to be here but they won’t pay me extra. My position has already been eliminated at some other sites and I think they’ll somehow use this as an excuse to eliminate it here, too.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        You know the saying about stuff rolling down hill? Companies will just become less tolerant (if that is possible) of part time hourly employees who call in sick or who are late.

    7. sophiabrooks*

      I am worried, too. I currently make $40,000 (which is quite decent for what I do and our cost of living) and I have so much freedom now– weeks where I have to be here from 7 am – 7 pm for a weeklong conference I am in charge of are balanced out by other weeks of coming in late or leaving early. I know my university will never approve overtime, but I don’t know how it will work on those conference days- I am the only person in my department other than the education director, so there is no one else to do those things. And I really don’t want to lose my flexibility!

      1. Observer*

        From what you describe, they won’t have any choice, unless they decide to shorten the conference or have it go over a weekend.

    8. inkstainedpages*

      I hadn’t heard about this new proposal – I just looked it up and wow, this is crazy! This will affect all the staff at my museum, including me. In my career (director of a small museum) and area, I expect I will never make more than $50,000. As someone who is underpaid right now even for the area, I appreciate the intention of the change in the law, but wow, this would change a lot for my organization. Like you mentioned, this change will punish companies that are not abusing the current exemption law along with those that are.

      1. Natalie*

        I think it’s worth noting that the intention is not to punish anyone, just to bring the OT threshold back in line with inflation. It literally hasn’t been adjusted since 1975.

        (And while we’re at it, DOL should peg the damn thing to inflation. I have no clue why they didn’t do that in the first place.)

        1. asteramella*

          It won’t be tied to inflation as proposed, but it will be pegged at the 40th percentile of exempt salaries nationwide, changing annually.

    9. AVP*

      I’m also nervous about this, although my employers is one of those abusing the current law so I don’t feel very badly for them. We have one person who works a ton of hours but is significantly under the salary threshold, and she’s either looking at a 15k salary bump or huge overtime payouts. We just need to figure out which is more affordable….

      The reason I’m dreading this is because while I’m super happy for her and she seriously deserves more money, I am the one who’s going to have to explain this to the CEO and find the cash.

    11. asteramella*

      It will likely take at least a year for the rule to finalized. DOL was late coming out with the proposed rule. I’d be surprised if it’s finalized before 2017.

  20. Christy*

    I think my office building gives me headaches. I just moved to a new building. I’m working from home today to see if I’m the problem, and so far no headaches. The possibility exists I could move to a third building in the area (we’re a government organization in the DC area) but it would be a pain since I just moved with my new job this very week.

    Anyone else experience this? It’s an old building. Both the old and new offices have had fluorescent lighting, so I don’t think it’s that part of it.

    1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      I have fragrance allergies and there are some places I just can’t go unless I really have to. Everything from hand-lotion to the air freshener in the bathroom can give me a day-long headache. Most of the time, there’s no immediate solution because you can’t just remove the smell (or even identify the source). It might be something in the building itself or some environmental something that people are bringing in. Allergy medicine does help me, though.

    2. HeyNonnyNonny*

      I sometimes get office migraines, but mine are from lighting and computer screens. I bought dorky yellow computer glasses, which seem to help. You can get a pair for 10-20 bucks. Maybe worth a shot.

      1. Fawn*

        If it is the computer screen, OP might want to give the f.lux extension a shot. It changes the colour temperature of the monitor, and I’ve found it helpful for reducing eye strain and computer-related migraines.

        1. Christy*

          Not in a million years would an extension be approved. Have I never mentioned that IE is the only approved browser? At least we’re up to IE11 now.

              1. Natalie*

                Lame.

                Couple of other things to try – if you have fluorescent lights, see if you can have gel filters installed. They change the quality, color, and intensity of the light. You also might find one of those screen cover dealies helpful.

          2. Beezus*

            I feel ya. Ours is IE8. I went rogue and upgraded to IE11. because I need something more current for a vendor portal that I have to access. (I also have Chrome for personal browsing. I am a rebel.) Some of our internal web-based things don’t work on IE11. IT’s response is that I’m using an unsupported browser, and they can’t help me do anything but change my browser back to IE8. I can remotely access another machine that still has IE8, so I’m working around it.

            1. Christy*

              Wow, we totally can’t go rogue. We had IE6 for the longest time and that was a rough, tough time.

            2. Stranger than fiction*

              You may want to mention that IE8 /windows xp since no longer supported by Microsoft makes your company vulnerable security wise since there’s no longet updates available to address security comcerns. It’s scary companies are still using it despite all the media coverage and warnings to upgrade for two years prior to the official end of support

              1. AnotherFed*

                Welcome to the government… we don’t get a choice on the IT, but it’s certainly making the news for how bad the IT security is.

          3. Anonicorn*

            You might look for monitor privacy screens. As implied, they’re intended for privacy but some of the ones I’ve seen tint the screen a bit even while you’re sitting in front of it.

    3. Gareth Keenan Investigates*

      Last year I started getting horrible tension headaches. They always hit around the same time of day and only if I was at the office (and they got way worse every time we had a staff meeting). I had no idea what was causing them and tried every practical remedy I could think of. When our office moved buildings and the headaches continued I figured I could probably exclude most environmental factors. I did talk to a doctor who felt pretty sure that they were tension headaches, for some reason I hadn’t even considered that. I can keep them at bay now with regular chiropractic and massage but they come back if I’m not on top of it. Any chance it could be something like that?

    4. Kelly L.*

      I had this at one old workplace, an office that always smelled of mold. Could there be an environmental issue of that kind?

      1. Jane*

        +1

        I had horrible migraines almost daily due to working in an old moldy building. I moved to a new office, and my migraines stopped almost completely.

      2. Christy*

        I’m afraid that’s what it is. I have a hard time smelling in general so I’ll have to pay attention for it.

      3. Ama*

        Also check if there are any plants that might produce pollen or any air fresheners nearby. I discovered I am apparently allergic to those plug-in air fresheners. I was using them all over my house for years, but I have bad sinuses anyway, so I didn’t make the connection until I moved a desk directly next to one and noticed I was getting regular migraines on the side of my head closest to the plug in that eased as soon as I moved elsewhere in my apartment.

    5. TootsNYC*

      Are you sure it’s the building, and not one specific coworker’s perfume, or the cleaning supplies?

      1. Christy*

        The first day it happened, I was literally the only person in the office–lots of telework. But I’ll think about the cleaning supplies–this building has a different cleaning contractor.

        1. Ezri*

          My migraines can get triggered by smells, sometimes. It doesn’t even have to be a strong or unusual smell – the most common one at home is fresh cat litter. No idea why.

            1. Marcela*

              Chemicals as “everything”? It drives me crazy that people don’t seem to remember anything from whatever the name of the science class in high school is: EVERYTHING is a chemical!

              1. Bangs not Fringe*

                How about:
                The over use of artificial fragrances in products like the cat litter that Ezri mentioned can have a profound impact on those of us with migraines. The same goes for household cleaning products and personal care products (makeup, hair and skincare, etc.) among many other things.

                My comment of “chemicals” was sarcasm. But the fact of the matter is, there’s a bunch of unnecessary junk in products and if you know (as Ezri alludes to) that they are making you feel unwell, you should find out why and make a change as a conscious consumer. There’s no reason to continue to feel unwell. Headaches suck.

    6. Bangs not Fringe*

      My work is a headache haven. This is what I looked at to find the culprit(s).

      Check the refresh rate of the screen you’re using at work. If you’re in government (like me) chances are the monitor was cheap, bought in bulk, and has a low refresh rate which can definitely contribute to headaches. Is your computer screen the same in this building as in the old? If not, this may explain the change. When my old monitor died, it was replaced by a big fancy new one! Unfortunately, big fancy new one wasn’t so fancy and has one of the lowest refresh rates out there.

      Also you can check whether the fluorescent lights have magnetic or electronic ballasts (apparently you can check this using the camera on a cell phone… not sure how effective this method is). Magnetic ballast fluorescent lighting is also associated with headaches. If it’s actually a “new” (new construction, remodeled) building, the likelihood of having outdated magnetic ballasts is reduced. Not all fluorescent lighting is created equal.

      Then like everyone has mentioned… scents and mold.

      Good luck!

    7. Hlyssande*

      When we moved to our office three years ago, I had a horrible time with the new lights. They gave me absolutely terrible, blinding headaches. Fortunately I’ve gotten used to them over time, so hopefully you will as well if the lighting is contributing to your issue.

      It still bothers me sometimes, but only when I already have headaches or feel crappy.

  21. New Admin*

    I will be starting an academic administrative job with a Big 10 University next week in a STEM department. I worked in the private sector (Fortune 250) for the last 30 years. What are the major differences in culture that I should be aware of between the corporate and academic worlds? My work in the private sector was accounting/IT systems, my new role will be a combination of accounting and HR. During my interview the professionalism of the department, training and work life balance was stressed, which I welcome.

    1. fposte*

      Since most of the Big 10 are public universities, what might be more significant, if you’re applying to one of those, is changing to work for the state. A lot of the culture is set by the individual department or unit, too, and it sounds like you may have found a solid one.

      And football and spirit tend to be big deals. You can probably get by without engaging–I do–but there will quite likely be colleagues wearing school colors on the relevant days.

      1. ali*

        yeah, in academia, especially Big 10, sports are important. I’d follow enough just so I could participate in conversations because it really is what everyone is talking about. It’s a good way to be included in group gatherings.

        also, expect your IT department to be slow. My last academia job, I was the ONLY IT person in my department. It took 3 months to get a computer for me because of having to jump through hoops with the school’s IT department. I had hacked into a leftover iMac in order to do the rest of my job for those 3 months.

    2. Jillociraptor*

      Ooh, no advice but I’ll be tracking the responses to this one. I’m in a similar boat, but moving from a non-profit to a huge university.

    3. Ama*

      My last boss in academic administration made a similar move and her biggest frustrations were the slow pace at which everything moved (especially when classes were not in session) and that systems infrastructure is just way behind where the private sector is (*especially accounting/HR,* so I hope for your sake your new employer is at least a little more organized on this front than my old one).

    4. pony tailed wonder*

      This is a small potatoes comment but start looking for the school colors when you are out shopping for work clothes. We have to wear ours one day a week and for when we have people coming on for special events.

    5. Academic*

      Get in as much training as you can on the law for your state! It will govern (literally) everything from buying pencils to hiring & firing. Be sure to get training in the evaluation system ASAP. Often you have to do any progressive discipline well before the evaluation deadline for the year, e.g., 90 days’ performance plan, with follow up time.

      The main cultural issue in academia is tension between professors/scholars vs. professionals vs. nonexempt staff. Professors are not usually locals. Nonexempt staff usually are. Professionals could be either. Nonexempt staff may be longtimers with a lot of experience who resent being treated like nobodies because they don’t have letters after their names. They may indeed know quite a bit, and it would be a good plan to butter up at least the secretaries. Professors may resent “uppity” underlings and some tenured faculty may be presumptuous and demanding. They may also be deficient in IT skills (even in a STEM department!) and need hand-holding more than the secretaries when it comes to filling out forms, learning new software, etc.

    6. A.*

      Particularly in STEM: personalities will be weird. possibly very weird. social skills may be lacking and you may need to recalibrate your expectations for people’s social adeptness. Also just because someone works in academic science does not mean they will understand how to use a computer to do basic things. I knew people who literally helped invent the modern computer who were flummoxed by email.

      Work-life balance may be there or…it may be not. Especially non-tenured academics trying to climb the ladder will be working all the time trying to keep ahead of the publishing rat race. And a flexible schedule is supposed to be one of the perks of academia, even when ‘flexible’ ends up meaning ’18 hour days or gtfo’. They should understand that staff members are not held to the same expectations, but don’t freak out if you get emails 24/7. It doesn’t necessarily mean your immediate response is expected.

      I agree with the other poster who mentioned there can be tension between out of state academics and in-state support staff…particularly if the state is in the midwest and the transplants are from the coasts.

      If you aren’t already a sports person paying superficial attention to the school’s athletics is very useful conversational grease.

      1. Academic*

        … and those socially inept people with no lives sometimes cross boundaries with young college students with no self-esteem.

        Be prepared for sexual harassment, religious discrimination, or almost any other unthinkable thing that you haven’t thought of! The concept of “mobbing,” or group bullying, came from its frequent occurrence in academia.

    7. ModernHypatia*

      1) Academic calendar has ebbs and flows. Everyone is likely to be very busy from about 2 weeks before classes start in the fall until about a month after, and then again the last 3-4 weeks of the semester. During breaks, people may not be on campus. (Or some key person may not be.) Ask people about what the norms are at your school, and when to push about bigger projects, and when to expect there won’t be progress for a bit.

      2) A lot of academia can feel very siloed, and both staff and faculty can sometimes feel very isolated. At some schools, there are ways to meet other people in similar roles in other areas. In others, it’s discouraged, or it went badly 15 years ago and no one’s tried since. Before you try to change those patterns, try and get a sense of why they’re like that, and whether the people who are the reason for it are still around.

      3) If any of the work you’re doing involves direct student contact (student workers, grad students hired by a lab, whatever) keep in mind that they will have a lot of the same issues interns do, and that Alison talks about a lot of the things that may come up. They may be brilliant at their field, but they may not have much experience with professional behavior, how to deal with situations that might cause HR or other problems, etc. Some clear handbooks/guidance (especially for safety/harassment/etc. issues) help a lot.

  22. BRR*

    As I have babbled on about for months now, I am on a PIP (I will stop talking about it soon I promise). I think I have a fairly good shot of succeeding at it and my manager would be graded on A on the AAM grading scale overall and specifically with this (as in wants me to succeed and is not being an ass.

    But I know most people don’t succeed once put on a PIP. I have a couple interviews coming up, should I take a job that pays less and would be venturing into an unknown work environment just to be safe?

    1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      Is that a conversation you could have with your manager? Do you have that kind of relationship? I have definitly had people succeed on a PIP, and others where I was doing the PIP as a matter of process knowing that they could/would not comply. If they had asked if they should be looking, I would be honest.

      1. Sunflower*

        I agree with this. You say your manager as been A at this so chances are she’ll be upfront about your actual chances of succeeding at the company. Good luck

      2. BRR*

        Unfortunately I don’t feel comfortable asking. Partially because it’s a 90 day PIP and I’m currently in week two so I might have an offer far before a decision is made (a big big big part of the PIP is consistency over the 90 days). I think I have presented a lot of improvement but also I think that she’s not sure if I’m quite there yet so she wouldn’t be able to give me a firm answer. The bigger part is my manager goes into major CYA mode about termination and I don’t think she would give me an answer about this.

        1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

          Ugh. I don’t know – but I do think you are right that you may not want to ask in the second day of a 90-day PIP. I might decide based on how hard it would be to find a job if you were let go. Are you in a role where you could easily find something else (retail?) or are you in a small field with few opportunities? How financially disastrous would it be for you to be let go?

          1. BRR*

            These are great points to consider. Thank you for weighing in. I think I will continue to work my ass off, job hunt, and if I get something just weight the offer. Some of the positions I am applying for are quite appealing.

    2. Another HRPro*

      If you have a good relationship with your manager, you may want to talk about with him/her. Ask how you are doing, let them know that you have some concerns about job stability and you want their advice. Obviously a manager will not be able to tell you that you will definitely keep your job, but a good manager will tell you that you should be thinking of other options if it is likely you will lose your job.

    3. fposte*

      I agree with talking to the manager–you don’t need to go so far as to say “Should I take this other job?” if you’re not comfortable with that, but you can certainly ask what kind of future she thinks you could have where you are. It sounds like things are going better for you if you think you’re succeeding at your PIP, and that is excellent! I can’t remember how long you’ve been at this position, but I believe you had a short-term before that ended in termination. If the current job isn’t that long a position either, there’s value in sticking it out there longer, since it would be good to mitigate the effects of the short-time job.

      I’m also not sure that you can count an unknown job as safe; it may present just as many obstacles for you. Are you thinking “safe” as in “not influenced by my period of lower performance”? That’s true, but I don’t think it translates to “safe”–they’re also not invested in you, and you don’t know whether their workplaces would be harder or easier to deal with. I still think it could be fine to take another job, but I wouldn’t count a new job as safe just because they don’t know my history. I guess what I’m saying I’d rate “fresh start” pretty low on the scoring in its own right; I wouldn’t move just for that without having other reasons.

      1. BRR*

        Good memory! Also thank you for your encouragement. I have been here for two years now. I’m also thinking down the road needing a reference from this job. If I can pass the PIP and stick it out maybe I can get a good reference.

        By safe, I only mean not being on a PIP. I think the first advice given to anybody on a PIP is to start looking.I have interviews with places that I would have applied to otherwise and places where I’m doing it just in case. The fresh start advice is very helpful for the just in case places!

    4. Academic*

      Do you feel you won’t succeed? Is it a huge strain to have risen as far as you have in the past two weeks? If you think you’re a mismatch for the job, then looking for a better fit is a good idea. If your PIP is due to inexperience or just not being aware of your performance issues, you may do well and have a great next year.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      This is tough. Since you are in week 2 AND you feel that your boss is in your corner, then I think hold out for a job that pays close to what you have now.

      Did you find a specific job or are you asking in general terms? If you have a specific job that you are asking about, then I’d say, if you can find that in two weeks you can probably find something with better pay in a little more time.

      If you are asking in general terms, then I believe that you should only go to a lower pay if you have to do that. It’s not sounding like you have to do that, yet. As we know this stuff can change, but so far it sounds like you have a chance here.

      I could not be further removed from your situation, sitting here across the internet. If a little voice inside you is saying RUN, that might be happening for a reason and I should not interfere with that little voice.

      1. BRR*

        Thanks for the advice. It’s nice to get an outside thought. I am in the interview process for two. One good and one unknown. Plus many other applications. Just wanted to be prepared.

  23. Cruciatus*

    Got an interview for a place I’ve been trying to get into for 10 years (a state university position)! I only spent an hour putting the cover letter together using relevant bits from other cover letters (an hour is good for me. I could spend ALL DAY on a cover letter and still be worried about it). But I sent it in and told myself it was worth a try to apply again, but not worth it to spend hours doing it, and, bam, they called for an interview. But it’s not until the 20th. Ugh! Such a long wait. Next week will take forever. The only thing that sucks though is that it isn’t 4 weeks ago. I work at a college that starts the last week of July so, even if I get the job, I still have to do all the prep leading into the new semester (and it’s more this year than recent years). And if I get it, I’d hate to leave in a weird time like this but…normal part of doing business, right!? Oh, my fingers are so very crossed…

    1. Lying Bosses*

      Good luck! I feel the same way. I’m also in higher ed and job hunting, even though there’s a big project coming up at the very beginning of the semester. It’s definitely a part of doing business that can’t be avoided.

    2. Malissa*

      Well from what I hear college hiring times might actually be worse than government hiring times. Good luck!

    3. cuppa*

      Congratulations and good luck! And I feel you on spending forever on your application materials – I spent three hours on one a couple of weeks ago and I’m still nervous about it.

    4. Cruciatus*

      Holy moly…when it rains, it pours! Just received a phone call from another university I’ve been trying to get into for years! So that’s 3 interviews in the span of a month and zero since last August. Woo! I may just get to leave my employer yet!

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Choices are a good thing! Congratulations for all this good news. May you end up with the best of the lot.

  24. Akwardly Anon*

    Recap: I posted last week I had to have an akward conversation with my manager about a promotion someone else on the team just got that I was supposed to have gotten as well.

    It was akward all right, but I think more so for my manager than for myself. My manager has apparently developed an acute case of amnesia about any and all conversations we’ve had about moving me to the next level, including this last round of performance review where she claimed she asked for the promotion, and when denied instead negotiated some extra bonus money as a consolation prize and said she’d try again mid-year. She has completely forgotten that she approached me first (she said back then) with her plan to restructure the group and gave me first pick of which direction I wanted to go, which group I wanted to lead.

    She is now claiming that I am not working at that level and have more work to do to get there, while defending her decision to give my co-worker the bump saying she came in at that level and is doing work at that level. She gave examples, which I responded to with examples of the same exact work that I had done or was currently doing and then some. She told me how would I know what my co-worker was doing? I wouldn’t know everything. So I asked, and I got one example of something which my co-worker had actually NOT done, but that someone else had done on her project, and reminded her that I, in fact, had done and was still doing that work on my project *by myself*. The thing is we all know what other people are working on in this team. There is no secret work that anyone here is doing that other people do not know about. We openly discuss workload and assignments in our team meetings! We are a small interdependant team. Everyone knows everyone else’s business. We all review each other’s deliverables.

    If my the level at which my co-worker is performing is the standard by which she’s determining who deserves to be promoted, then I should have had the title a long time ago. She was adimant that my co-worker came in at that level where I did not. I disagreed, and said I could show that as well along with the documentation she had asked me to put together for mid-year review. I was also told in one instance that I couldn’t use my co-worker as the example. So I used the role descriptions as the guide. At some point I was told there was no standard, and then later in the coversation that I wasn’t there and had more things to work on. So, now there is a standard for getting to this level? It made my head spin.

    None of it made sense to me. It left my head reeling. We have another sit-down face-to-face meeting to discuss this next week. I think my approach at that time will be to come prepared with strong evidence of my accomplishments that merit the promotion I was promised 6 months ago, and the promotion that my manager started working with me on over 18 months ago. I would really welcome any advice or lessons learned from people who’ve had to go through this.

    To add insult to injury, when my boss needed numbers to help make her business case for bringing on more resources and converting people from being contractors to perm, she came to me for that. I kind of feel like I’ve been smacked in the figurative balls with my own work. This would not have been possible without being able to convert the promoted co-worker into a full-time position.

    The thing is, had my co-worker been converted to the position at which she currently held and to which it was my understanding they were all being converted, this would not have blown up like this. I don’t necessarily care that I’m probably the lowest paid person on the team. It’s not about money. It is about equity in recognition and looking out for my own career. Employees have to be held to the same standards when it comes to promotions and rewards, otherwise the title/role structure/hierarchy set by the company becomes totally meaningless, and there is no incentive to grow. That is where I am at now – completely demotivated to accept additional responsibilities, or even continue with the ones I’ve been given with the goal of growing in my roll, and completely demotivated about putting in the effort to complete the time intensive mid-year and annual review process, because I have been shown that none of it matters. My company already has a rep for not rewarding people with raises and promotions, and review process already seemed pretty futile to me and took away from valuable time on project work. Now this? Seems like the quickest way to lose your best people.

    *I wrote this earlier in the morning. I’very since looked at my performance reviews and my boss essentially wrote my entire defense for giving me the promotion. She even explicitly writes that I have the experience and qualifications.

    1. Another HRPro*

      I’m very sorry. It is possible that your boss supports your promotion but was “overruled” by someone else. In any case, you need to understand specifically what you need to demonstrate that you are ready for advancement. Is it knowledge, education, behavior, skills? And what specifically. For example, if you get feedback on communication skills, ask what specifically should you focus on. Written communication, verbal, non-verbal?

      1. Lying Bosses*

        “It is possible that your boss supports your promotion but was “overruled” by someone else.”

        This. Although why not just tell you that? Not in those exact words, obviously. But I’d much rather hear the truth than some bull about my work not being good enough, when you told me differently not too long ago.

        1. Bea W*

          She told me at annual review time that she was in fact overruled by the people with the purse strings further up the chain over the promotion and she still supported my taking on more and developing more skills whether or not she was given the budget to promote and she would try again at mid-year. I was handed more work/responsibility to stay on that track.

          That makes the response I’m getting now all the more perplexing, claiming I don’t have the experience or skills and have not been working at that level like the co-worker who has not been given all the additional responsibilities (not even with her promotion!)

          Honestly, I think co-worker negotiated it as part of coming on perm vs contract and possibly being personal friends with the boss gave her an extra advantage, and now my manager feels the need to defend the outcome and protect herself by re-writing the narrative.

          I’m not going to spend any more energy than that trying to figure it out. That’s not going to help get me the promotion I was previously told I was qualified for and deserved.

    2. Malissa*

      Bring all of that written proof with you. And as hard as it’s going to be. Leave the coworker out of it. If she offers anything to get you to the next step, write it down and email it back to her to make sure you are on the same page.
      But most of all, look for another job. I’m guessing the promotion might not be happening because you are way too valuable where you are now. If you get promoted your bass may not be able to use your skills as easily for her benefit.

      1. Sadsack*

        Yes, in the next conversation, do not mention the coworker. Focus only on your work and the documentation. Good luck!

    3. Academic*

      Live & learn. This time around, document, document, document. Take notes during meetings and use one of those bound blank books for that purpose.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Sounds like she is one of those bosses that you have to repeat things back to for verification.
        I am sorry this is happening to you.

    4. Fleur*

      I would take advantage of the effort you’re putting in documenting your accomplishments and direct it towards polishing your resume and going job hunting. Unless jobs in your field are exceedingly hard to get, you should not restrict your efforts are getting a raise or promotion solely to your current company.

      Most people I know get pay raises by changing jobs, and those pay raises almost always exceed the normal pace of promotions at a company. If your bosses won’t pay you what you’re worth even with the extensive evidence you’ve given them, it’s time to move on.

      1. Akwardly Anon*

        Turns out I don’t really have to document anything. Having read back through my performance reviews, it seems my manager has already done all that work for me, and in pretty explicit detail. I felt like maybe I was the crazy, and if I decided to press the issue I would have to spend a lot of effort on putting together the documentation to defend myself. I feel relieved if only for the fact that I have evidence that it’s not all in my head.

        It does mean that my manager has not been straight with me somewhere along the line, and I don’t feel like I can trust what she says. The hard part will be deciding what I want to do with myself now that I have a manager I can’t trust and who has really shown me tremendous disrespect outside of the whole non-promotion thing. That’s not an easy decision in this case. There are still a lot of pros to trying to stick it out and see if my manager and I can get past this, a lot of cons, but also a lot of pros. Not easy. Either way, you’re right, the best place to put my efforts is updating my resume and making it kickass.

    5. catsAreCool*

      I can’t tell if your boss is the problem, or if the higher ups are the problem, but this is pretty awful.

      I can think of 2 options.
      1. Look for a job somewhere else.
      2. Put on your best humble, eager to improve attitude and talk to the boss about what you need to do to get to the next level. It sounds like you’ve already done that, though. Sometimes the way someone does something can make the difference. If you do the “humble mentee” kind of thing, your boss may feel like mentoring you and helping you get to where you need to be.

      But it seems like the boss isn’t being straight with you. I understand when management says “We were going to do X but now we have decided to go with Y because of Z”. I hate it when management says “No, we were always going to do Y.” when they clearly said they were going to do X. Sometimes I can guess why they want to do Y; sometimes it even makes more sense. I’m OK with people changing their minds. I’m not OK with people lying to me.

  25. Anon for this*

    I remember someone else posting something in an open thread a couple of weeks ago about, when you’re in a bad working environment, making things better by telling yourself, “I choose to be doing this instead of going freelance,” just to feel a little less powerless over the situation.

    I would love any other suggestions for how not to let uncertainty and angst spill over from the office into your life at home. I feel like I’m doing everything I can to get out of my current bad situation — exploring other options within the company, looking for outside opportunities too. But at my level of seniority those are few and far between. I find myself having dreams about work and waking up in a cold sweat. I hate that I can’t even get a good night’s sleep without work invading that!

    I try to keep telling myself that I’m doing everything I can to make my situation better, and I’ve tried the “I’m doing this because it’s better than freelancing” pep talk too. It’s not really working. I’m an anxious person in general — I like a lot of certainty in my life and the lack thereof with my current situation is what’s causing me so much stress — and I would be grateful for any other tips fellow commenters have.

    1. NJ anon*

      I’m in the same boat. I have decided to start a nonprofit. I am determined to get enough funding so I can quit and run the NP.

    2. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

      I’ve been through periods where I was really, really frustrated about being underpaid (and therefore unappreciated, undervalued, misunderstood, etc.), but hesitant to leave because I have a ton of flexibility and I need that for health reasons (and I don’t like the idea of getting into ADA accommodations when I can just avoid the whole topic). So I tell myself, “they are offering x for this position. I can choose at any time to accept or not accept that. It’s just a number. Right, I’m choosing to accept it because the logistics are working for me.” So I try to focus on the fact that it’s MY choice to do the work for $x, vs. their choice not to pay me more than $x.

      Also: therapist. Anxiety that is spilling into all parts of your life is tough, but not hopeless.

    4. Malissa*

      I use, “Doing this prevents me from being homeless.” Or “It’s harder to find a job if I’m unemployed” Even “This is only temporary”
      But it sounds like you need to find a way to leave work at work. I do not talk about work after I leave for the day. I also have found that doing something for my self that I really enjoy helps the disconnect. For me that’s getting into my pool and swimming and walking laps with the radio playing. Find your happy place and go there every night.

    5. Sunflower*

      I have nightmares about work a lot. I am really trying to get them to stop. Leave work at work. Just totally forget it even exists until you have to be there. I just started listening to podcasts during my commute home and it’s really helped me disconnect from work and transition to my out or work personality. If you’re job hunting at night, try to spend the last hour or two before bed doing something else. Preferably something you can really throw yourself into.

      As far as not being able to sleep, are you drinking more caffeine than usual? I am and it’s really messing with my ability to sleep (although I’ve never been a good sleeper). I try to only have one or two cups of tea now and don’t drink anything with caffeine past 3pm so try to reduce that if you can/need to.

      1. TootsNYC*

        Podcasts really help me when I’m obsessing about something mentally. They fill up my brain while they’re running, and they give me something else interesting to talk about and think about.

      2. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

        I have also zero commute now (5 to 8 minutes), burning used to have 35 minutes and enjoyed using that as the boundary between home and work. Now I’m home just about instantly, and have to really make an effort to disconnect and unwind.

    7. NDQ*

      I work a day job that pays well for this area, but I have to struggle every day to walk through the front doors. I have been looking/applying for other positions yet at this level they don’t open up all that often.

      Several years ago, I figured I needed a Plan B, so I opened an investment account (money market) and put in $25. Then I kept adding to it as much as I could every month. I became obsessed with saving in every area of my life so that I could dump more into that account every month. I now have enough money to buy a small multi-family building (a four or six plex) and while not many are listed for sale, it’s great knowing that I’m ready to buy. I will live in one unit and the others will pay for the entire mortgage.

      I’m still working at at terrible place, but my Plan B is what gets me in the door and through the day.

      NDQ

    8. Not So NewReader*

      Positive mental imaginary? Picture yourself as having found that new job. What does that look like? You smile while driving to work. Maybe you bought a new car. Your coworkers greet you with “good morning”, you say it back and actually mean it.
      I do believe we go toward the mental images in our heads. If you are replaying the images of evil boss or nasty coworker you are losing precious moments that you can be detailing what you want your future will be like. Keep that mental image sharp and fresh.

    9. Bea W*

      I couldn’t tell myself that -choosing to be in a toxic work environment over freelancing. That just seems depressing. WHat I did tell myself is that my situation was temporary, and that someday I would get that job offer that would be my ticket out the door. I needed to know that there was a light at the end of the tunnel, and that reaching that light was in my control, not under the control of my employer. That kept me going everyday. I’d browse jobs on my phone at lunch, just to remind myself I had options. I deal with the uncertainty by relying on my faith – not specifically faith in god type faith, though it’s certainly a tool I use, but my faith that there is something better out there, and if I persist in my search I will find it.

      At home I unplug if work stress is spilling over. It is super hard when you are in a bad environment and it is messing with your sleep. I have to force myself to eat properly and do things that help with my anxiety like walking outside, listening/singing/dancing to music, engaging my mind in reading or puzzles so that it’s too busy to think about work, at least for short periods of time. At work I try to stay focused on the things that are good. At my last job that was some of my co-workers and doing great work for my (non-nasty) clients.

      I wonder if having some certainty through routine at home or on the job would help counter the uncertainty around work. Having a routine I can count on at least in part of my life helps give me a break from the uncertain parts of my life.

    10. misspiggy*

      I think I might have made the original comment. I guess it’s only helpful if freelancing, temping or whatever is reasonably attractive, as in, ‘I could easily freelance and it would be perfectly fine, yet I’m still here. Are there positive reasons I’m choosing to be here? Great, I shouldn’t forget that.’
      For me, if the current job is 100% awful and the only thing keeping me there is fear of something infinitely worse, I’d be doing everything I could to get out of there, and patting myself on the back for doing everything within my control to resolve the situation. Anything else is up to chance, so no point worrying about that. When things have got really bad I’ve focused on any beauty available in my immediate surroundings. I remember a grim autumn where I focused a lot on the beautiful patterns of fallen leaves on the streets as I trudged to work.

  26. Vacation Sub*

    Help!
    I’m covering for someone on vacation and they’ve asked if I can get through to one of their employees about working extra hours outside of her scheduled times (I was her manager until I was laid off). It’s a small not-for-profit that has just gone through a massive layout/resignation period and everyone is swamped. Hours are budgeted to a certain $ amount but one of the part-time people is consistently logging in from home and doing an extra hour or two every morning and often stays an extra hour or two at night (usually going over her allowed hours).
    She has been told repeatedly NOT to do this but feels she needs to in order to get everything done. She got pissed at me the other day when I told her she was not to stay after closing that night or go onto the computer system at home to finish the work.
    She does put the extra time worked on er time sheet (finally, after beating on her about it for 2 years).

    I get it – work is falling through the cracks, she can make some extra cash by putting in the extra hours, she feels less pressured by working outside office hours – but she needs to stop!! I’ve spoken with her, my assistant (who resigned immediately after I was laid off) has spoken with her, the person trying to desperately to full the shoes of 2 FT people in the space of a PT schedule has spoken with her… nothing seems to get through. I have suggested that this go to (the meager 1 person) HR department (who is also the CFO and a few other things).

    Now what??

        1. fposte*

          Isn’t that you, though? You’re the interim person in charge of telling her stuff. Sounds like a supervisor to me.

          Just be clear: there’s a budget crunch, there have been layoffs, they might not be the last. You need her to support the organization in the way it asks, not just the way she wants to, and that means working only the authorized hours. Her log hours will be tracked (because otherwise she’ll just to back to working it illegally), and if they’re overtime she’ll be subject to progressive discipline.

            1. fposte*

              Sounds like the regular took off just to make somebody else tell the staffer this. Not really handling it great.

              Do you literally mean this business week and today is the last day? Then that doesn’t leave much time. Otherwise, I’d say go ahead and do it because you’ve been asked to, and then shrug and move on knowing that enforcement isn’t your problem.

    2. Calliope*

      Have you (or anyone) said, explicitly, “stop doing this or you will be fired”? Is anyone in your organization willing to follow through on that? When an employee refuses to stop doing something after being clearly told to stop, you’re getting close to the point where that employee will have to be fired. That needs to be communicated very frankly if no one’s done that.

      If no one’s willing to fire her even if she keeps doing this, that’s it’s own separate problem. It’s hard to manage people who’ve learned that they can ignore rules without consequences.

    3. PontoonPirate*

      Who is her manager now? That person needs to lay out consequences. She can’t work extra. She’s been told that. “Eliza, we agreed that you would stop logging in from home to do work outside your scheduled hours. Now that we’re revisiting this conversation, I need to see you adhering to this rule immediately. Otherwise, [consequence]. Can you do that?”

    4. Cambridge Comma*

      Alison answered a question about this once. If I remember correctly, her answer was that it is like any other disciplinary problem — if someone is explicitly asked to not do something and continues to do it, you warn them that they will be let go if they continue, and if they don’t stop, you fire them.

      1. Vacation Sub*

        Thanks – while I know that it is clearly an employee breaking rules set out in front of her I’m having a hard time rationalizing firing someone because they are trying to get time sensitive work done on time.
        And since I am only filling in for someone it really isn’t my issue to lay down the hammer, except that I have been asked if I would (gotta love it!).
        Going to try to present it as a budget issue and possible reduction of hours later in the season (it is only the beginning of the season and will get crazier in about a month).

        1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

          Yeah – I think this is a symptom of working in a nonprofit. It feels crappy to address it as a discipline issues, because the intentions are good, but you have to.

          We are in the same position with a few PT people who really cannot exceed their hours. Once I’ve addressing it once or twice, I tell them and their supervisor that because they are over x hours, their work hours must be reduced by x in the following week, period. So if they normally work 5 days a week for 4 hours a day, and they were over by 12 hours, they may only come to work Monday and Tuesday. Of course, this is followed by objections about all the things that won’t get done, so I respond that that is the consequence of using up the allotted hours at too fast a pace.

          Sometimes this is because people want to get the work done. Other times, it is because they need the extra money and so they work too slowly to finish their work during the allotted time. If the work on their plate is reasonable, then you have to make clear that they must work at a pace that allows them to complete their work during that time.

          1. NacSacJack*

            I like this solution. She has a set # of hours she can work in a pay period. Send her home when she reaches that limit. Tell her if she logs in from home, she will not be paid for those hours because you cannot document that she is working.

            None of this is firing her, but it will get the message across.

            Regarding the remote access – is she using a work issued laptop? Ask for the laptop once she reaches her allocated hours. No need to cut her remote access if she can’t get online. If she is using her home PC, then call IT and have her remote access cut until the next pay period.

            1. Ashley the Nonprofit Exec*

              Unfortunately, if someone works from home, you have to pay them. You can discipline them, but they have to be paid for the hours they already worked.

        2. Calliope*

          I guess it depends on your workplace. To me, even with the best of intentions, working hours you’ve been explicitly told not to work (and that send you over budget) is so far over the line into Not Okay behavior that I think it cries out for immediate consequences. Letting this go is letting her take money out of the organization’s pocket (because you have to pay her for any hours she actually works) even though she’s been told the organization doesn’t want to spend that money. It’s a huge problem.

          If the organization actually IS okay with her working these hours because the work needs to get done, that’s cool — they should adjust their budget to account for how many hours she actually needs to work. But if they’re not, the hammer has to come down at some point. Saying “we don’t want you to work more than we’ve budgeted for, but we’re not actually going to make you stop” just sends the message that employees don’t have to do what they’re told, and that can’t end well.

      2. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Alison answered a question about this once. If I remember correctly, her answer was that it is like any other disciplinary problem — if someone is explicitly asked to not do something and continues to do it, you warn them that they will be let go if they continue, and if they don’t stop, you fire them.

        Just to be clear, in general, consequences don’t have to be firing — but it needs to be something. Consequences could be anything from impacting the person’s assessment or raise or types of projects they get or promotion potential or reputation, all the way to firing.

        In this case, though, she’s essentially taking money from the organization without permission. That’s firing-worthy and she needs it framed to her like that.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Lay out the stealing angle. When you take something that you are not authorized to take, then that is called stealing. In this case, she is stealing dollars from payroll by putting in more time when she has repeatedly been told not to do this. Let her know that there are companies out there that will fire a person on the spot for this on the first offense. I would go on to say, “It is very important that you understand the severity of you continued refusal to follow this rule. You do not have a choice, you must stop immediately.”

          Possibly look into cutting off her computer access from home since that seems to be part of the problem.

    5. Katie the Fed*

      Treat it like any other conduct issue. “Cersei, we’ve discussed previously that you cannot work unauthorized overtime. I need you to stop. If you continue to do this we’ll have to take disciplinary action.”

      1. pony tailed wonder*

        Yes to this.

        Write her up and have her sign that she knows she is not to do any overtime without permission. Place it in her files.

    6. TootsNYC*

      Can you point out to her that she’s actually hurting the organization with what is essentially “enabling” behavior?

      If the organization continues to meet its goals by utilizing these extra hours for her, they aren’t able to see or to fix the underlying problem of having too much work (or, work hours allocated inappropriately). (In fact, SHE isn’t able to do this; because she mentally allocates those hours to the task, she doesn’t prioritize properly and jettison less-important tasks.)

      Also–if these are time-sensitive things, someone needs to be managing her time more closely and jettisoning stuff for her.

    7. Malissa*

      Can you lock her out of logging in from home? That would be a place to start. Then tell her she needs to stick to her hours or y’all will find some one capable of doing that.
      The other solution is to tell her she can continue what she’s doing only if she finds the extra funding, during her normal working hours.

      1. MsM*

        Or make sure she can’t log in except during designated work hours? I realize most systems aren’t that sophisticated, and it’d probably just be easier to grant her temporary access if she has to work from home on a given day, but it might be worth looking into.

    8. Sunflower*

      I would explain to her ‘I appreciate your dedication to your work but you need to only work x hours. I’m not sure if you realize this but working these extra hours is throwing the organizations budget off and it simply can not happen. If you continue to work these extra hours, you will be terminated. Do you understand?’

      On another note, I have no idea if I read this wrong but your organization seems really bonkers. You’re supposed to be having serious conversations with an employee of a person you’re covering for who is on vacation? And your assistant talked to her after she had already resigned? And wait, if you were laid off, why do you work there now? Did I miss something?

      1. Vacation Sub*

        Clarification – I was indeed laid off months ago. My assistant resigned shortly after I was laid off but has been doing about an hour a week consulting 9dealing with scheduling & payroll). I’ve been doing 2-3 hours a week consulting/training the woman who is trying to do my former job, my former assistant’s former job and her own job. Both the person who was trying to hold the circus together in this department & my former assistant are away this week and I was asked to come in for the week (hey, I’m on unemployment and it was something I could not really turn down; yes, I asked for written confirmation that I was not breaking my severance agreement!).

        And yes, the place is bonkers! My staff and I are all friendly and have a good relationship amongst ourselves outside the office and I did not want someone screwed out of vacation time (I was a few years ago after other people were laid off). I miss them and was glad to see a few of them this week.

        The statement you made about it screwing the budget is indeed what I am suggesting they say to her. And I’m suggesting THEY deal with it, not me.

    10. Observer*

      Lock her out her remote access and access to email from outside your system. Make her leave at closing. She’s ticked off? Too bad.

      On the other hand, what you have described is unsustainable, non-profit or not. Management needs to either find more funding or curtail activities.

  27. YetAnotherAnon*

    As an update to this thread, I’ve applied for the position. They contacted my references for a recommendation, but I haven’t been contacted for an interview yet. I find that pretty strange.

  28. Carrie in Scotland*

    So I’ve sent my paperwork back to my new workplace. Yey!

    In my contract (common in the UK) it says to make contact with Kim prior to me starting. How soon should I make contact (I don’t start til mid-Aug) and what should I say?

    1. fposte*

      Hopefully somebody who speaks UK employment will answer, but I’d do it maybe two weeks before (I initially said a week but added a week for possible summer holidays) unless you think there’s paperwork that needs extra time. “Hi, Kim–I’m Carrie, and I’ll be starting as the Liquored-Up Teapots Tech on August 17. You’re listed as contact person, but is there anybody else I should be making advance contact with, and anything you’d like me to do in preparation for the first day? I’m looking forward to starting at Tot o’ Tea!”

    3. Cristina in England*

      I would say you should make contact before Friday the 17th because you never know who will be on holiday, or for how long, especially over the summer. Definitely don’t leave it until 2 weeks before because Kim might be on holiday for 2 weeks, coming back the same day you start (stranger things have happened). It’s less likely that someone would be out for a straight 3 weeks though, so if you do it by the end of next week you should be in the clear.

  29. ACA*

    I got the best rejection letter ever earlier this week – telling me that 1) I’d been one of the top two candidates, 2) she wished she could have hired both of us (and I actually think she meant it sincerely, not in a trite way), and 3) there is a different job opening up soon that she thinks I’d be perfect for. I felt so encouraged – it was a nice reminder that there are managers out there who actually respect and value their employees.

    1. Future Analyst*

      That’s so nice. An actual letter, written by someone who sees you as an actual person– it doesn’t get much better than that for a rejection letter. I’m always appalled at the rudeness of sending a form letter (or worse, nothing at all) if someone has spent the time to be interviewed. Just the slightest whif of personalization can make a huge difference.

      1. Future Analyst*

        To be clear, I’m not expecting long, drawn-out affairs for rejection letters when the individual has interviewed, just a small reference to having met the person in real life. I don’t expect HR or hiring managers to draft letters from scratch for each rejectee, just to acknowledge that they’re writing to a real person, not just an email address.

      2. pony tailed wonder*

        I think form letters are a form of self preservation for some situations. We opened a job up on campus for a student assistant for 48 hours on the online job system and we got over 300 applicants.

    4. Pineapple Incident*

      Love that. Disappointing to be rejected, but it’s so nice to feel like a person even when they’ve decided to go with another candidate.

    5. Steve G*

      I would like one of those, one of my favorites so far in this job hunt was:

      “After careful consideration, we regret to inform you that we do not see a match between the role and your profile. ”

      Um….I did most of the things in the job ad at my last job and custom do cover letters, what the heck does it mean that you don’t see a match?!?!?! It’s not like I just go around randomly applying for things I don’t qualify for.

  30. Pearl*

    So last week I commented that my boss was dead-set on having us all share “5 minutes of personal information” about ourselves at the beginning of a long meeting, and that I was very nervous about it.

    Sharing time ended up being cancelled. Apparently, everyone my boss went to after me and the other admin also cringed and told him they were uncomfortable with it. Once he heard that literally no one wanted to do this, he backed down. I found this out after, at the time, he just said we were skipping it. I was so relieved. Thanks to the commenters who gave me tips about it.

    4. Hlyssande*

      On a new project with a new (to us) PM, we had to share things about ourselves at the beginning of the first few test sessions. Not just name, department, what we generally do, but our hobbies and what we usually do outside of work, etc.

      It was really uncomfortable, but she put us all on the spot.

      I hate super special sharing time at the beginning of meetings.

      1. Charlotte Collins*

        “My hobby is building the giant robot in my garage. Outside of work, I spend four hours a day teaching my cat to control the robot. This weekend, we had a test run. Tabby took the robot to the store to buy kitty litter. The clerk overcharged her. Now we spend one hour a day working on my cat’s math skills. Yesterday she bit me.

        “Does anyone know anyone with puppies for sale?”

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Kind of reassuring that everyone felt as you did, right? I am glad the boss backed down.

  31. YetAnotherAnon*

    As an update to a previous AAM Open Thread on 6/12. I’ve applied for the position. They contacted my references for a recommendation, but I haven’t been contacted for an interview yet. I find that pretty strange.

    1. fposte*

      Some places do it like that. The only time it made sense to me was when applicants would have had to do a fair bit of travel for the interview and neither employer nor applicants were likely to have money to throw around; the employer therefore wanted to make sure it was worth asking people to come in for.

  32. ElCee*

    Technical writers–what are some good job listing sources/boards?
    I’m an editor. (Technical research–think engineering.) I’m looking for new jobs and hoping to possibly transition into technical writing. In this area (DC) it seems nearly everything on the major job boards (indeed, dcjobs, LinkedIn) are either contract or require a clearance, which I don’t have. I feel like a bit of a fraud joining something like STC without any actual TW experience to my name. But maybe it is a good idea? I do network, but editorial is a pretty crowded field so that hasn’t turned up anything–yet.

    1. AnotherFed*

      Do they require an existing clearance, or that you be eligible to obtain a clearance?

      1. Thinking out loud*

        This. As long as you’re eligible to obtain a clearance (US citizen, relatively clear background), I think you should apply. It is also helpful if you’re knowledgeable on their topic of interest – you’ll be ready to go the day you get your clearance, and in some cases, that’s a faster way of getting a good employee rather than hiring someone who is cleared but needs to learn how to do technical writing or apply it to the particular area the company is interested in.

      2. ElCee*

        A lot of them require an existing clearance! One of the quirks of this area and so many cleared people I guess! (Although I have friends in those industries who say sometimes they’ll waive that requirement if you look good otherwise.)

    2. Susan*

      Join STC — not every member is a technical writer or editor. I’ve found it to be a very welcoming organization, with lots of mentoring. Go to a local meeting and meet some people! That’s how I found my first two jobs in the field. Good luck!

  33. Ad Astra*

    I’m leaving early today and trying so hard to get everything wrapped up before lunch, but I’m stuck in limbo waiting for other people to respond to my emails. Booooo.

    1. Rita*

      Ugh, that’s the worst. I have to leave 15 minutes earlier today, and it’s been pretty quiet. I’m worried everything is going to come all at once later this afternoon :(

  34. Trixie*

    With my first two freelance checks (yay!), I realized I need a game plan to deal with taxes. I’m checking online but TBH find taxes really confusing since I’ve been filing EZ forms except the last couple years when I haven’t worked at all. Do most folks send in quarterly payments, or just save 30% until tax time? I do have a taxes taken out of my other PT jobs so I could just increase those withdrawals. And is the payment divided up between social security, med, etc automatically? TIA.

    1. ElCee*

      Send in quarterlies. My partner does a lump sum at the end of the year (despite my cajoling) and the fees aren’t insane, but they do add up. I keep meaning to get Quickbooks….
      As a freelancer you do have to factor in social security and medicaid. 30 percent is a good standard, but IME it’s always better to take out a little more than you think you need.

    2. wannabephoenix*

      not much help here- I saved 35% for taxes, SS Medicaid and had a tax advisor do my taxes. he took the money and made sure it went to the right entities.

    3. Malissa*

      If the freelance checks are infrequent, taking extra taxes out at your part-time job is a good solution. but if this becomes a regular revenue stream then I suggest at the very least using something like Taxact.com to file quarterlies and give you an idea of how much you’ll owe for the year.
      Quickbooks is also an option and they integrate very nicely with Turbo tax. If you keep up on entering your information through the year filing taxes at the end of the year becomes very easy. If all of this still sounds too complicated, find you a CPA/bookkeeper and let them handle it for you.

      1. Beancounter in Texas*

        If QuickBooks is too comprehensive for your freelance work, Quicken Home & Business also integrates with TurboTax and is cheaper than QuickBooks.

    4. Chickaletta*

      For state taxes, it’s going to depend by state. Federal I just file a schedule C with my 1040.

      “And is the payment divided up between social security, med, etc automatically?”
      No. You just pay tax when you file 1040. It doesn’t go into your social security and I’m not sure what you think medical has to do with income tax… You have health insurance through your part time job? If you’re on an individual plan, you can deduct your premiums.

      Make sure you’re saving money in your business account to cover taxes when they come due. You should keep income and expenses for your freelance business separate from other jobs. I filter freelance income and expenses through my business checking account so I can keep accurate records for tax and legal purposes.

      My state offers a free one day class on taxes for small businesses. It was very much worth the time. You might want to check if your state has something like that.

      2. Dynamic Beige*

        My state offers a free one day class on taxes for small businesses. It was very much worth the time. You might want to check if your state has something like that.

        Oh yeah! If you have access to a programme like this, go for it! If there was one where I am, I’d sign up for it right now.

        I would also suggest that you look for an accountant that has some experience in whatever kind of freelancing work you do — and talk to them about it. Get set up with them so they can advise you on how to save your receipts to make it easier for them to do your filing next year. There are other things such as where I live, you can freelance under your own name and deposit cheques into a personal bank account. But if you would rather operate as Trixie’s Teapots, you need a business licence and business banking account. Not to mention that as freelancer, I have to collect sales tax and remit it quarterly.

        Another thing to look into is financial planning. If you can reduce your taxes by contributing to a retirement fund, it might be worth it depending on how much you make — but that’s going to depend on your overall financial situation.

      3. chilledcoyote*

        Schedule C businesses generate (additional) self-employment tax on your 1040. That goes to Social Security and Medicare, which is what they were talking about above.

    5. Writer*

      I save 30% all year since I don’t make enough money to owe taxes quarterly. Check the regulations where you live to find out who needs to pay quarterly.

    6. ExceptionToTheRule*

      RE tax payments: you pay the government a lump sum and they divide out what would be the federal income tax withholding versus the FICA credits to social security and Medicare based on your tax filing.

  35. Sara The Event Planner*

    I very recently (last week) started a new job. I’m really enjoying what I’m learning and think it will be a great fit, but I’m very much a newbie and figuring things out. I’ve just barely moved past learning key peoples’ names and which conference room is which.
    Anyway…the last week and a half has been a lot of orientation-type meetings and overviews of projects/clients. They all end with me being asked what questions I have. I’m a person who learns more by doing and observing than by asking, but I don’t want to come across like I’m not paying attention or don’t care. Is there a way to say “no, I don’t have questions” without seeming disengaged? I’ve been going with something along the lines of “I don’t have specific questions at this point, but this was a really helpful overview. I’m sure once I dive in, I’ll get a better sense of [whatever].” Is there something better I could be saying?

    1. Future Analyst*

      I think what you’re saying is just fine. It’s a reasonable response, and it’s not a flat, “no.”

    2. Amber Rose*

      I think you’re doing fine. I often say the same thing, “No questions come to mind right now but I’m sure once I get started I’ll have a few.” Nobody has ever seemed to have an issue with that.

    3. Thinking out loud*

      +1 to the comments above. Maybe also say, “I find that I have a lot of questions once I get working. Do you mind if I come to you with questions at that point?”

    4. Beancounter in Texas*

      Perhaps follow up the “no, no questions yet” with “I’m learning a lot just by observation.”

  36. first time commenter*

    I’ve been thinking about this, from the “no, you’re not getting anyone fired” post from a week ago (July 2):

    “particularly with hiring, it’s worth noting that the vast majority of managers want to hear from people who know their candidates, and would be dismayed to find out that a staff member had a negative assessment of a candidate and didn’t bother to speak up about it.”

    Does anyone know if this is different in the UK? When someone I knew from a previous job interviewed to work here, someone on the panel let that slip but couldn’t tell me who it was for confidentiality reasons. I later found out who it was because they came to visit before deciding, but it was made very clear that my opinion (not that I had a negative one) shouldn’t be aired in case the candidate sued the company for possibly letting me influence the decision despite not being on the official panel.

    Another time, candidates were interviewed to work with me as a two-person team; they were brought round to meet me but I was told there could be legal trouble if the decision was based on any interaction except the official panel interview, so while I was asked for my opinion of the candidates it was made clear that it couldn’t affect the decision. (What do you say when you’re asked for an opinion but told that there must be no possibility of it changing anyone’s mind even slightly in either direction?)

    Is this just how things work in the UK or is my work crazypants?

    1. AdAgencyChick*

      WOW. I have no idea what the law is in the UK, but this sounds insane to me. Given the difficulty most companies have with firing someone (yeah, we have “at-will” employment in many states, but many companies are still reluctant to fire without a lot of PIP and documentation in order to avoid lawsuits/unemployment tax increases), hiring is correspondingly cautious — and I can’t imagine NOT wanting to hear from someone who has experience working with a candidate.

      But I wait to be educated on other countries’ labor laws.

    2. OfficePrincess*

      I’m not in the UK, but is this almost sounds like a government org with the overly strict hiring policies. I’m on team crazypants though.

      1. TheLazyB*

        Yep I am in the UK and I thought ‘government org’. They are Different.

        I’ve always worked in ’em :)

        1. first time commenter*

          Thanks for your replies, everyone! I work as support staff at a university, which in the UK is not a million miles removed from “government org” as universities are largely state-funded. So yes, that probably does explain it…

          (The things I’ve heard about government orgs suggest they are even more Different than universities but we’re probably along the same spectrum of Difference. Apart from a couple of holiday jobs, I’ve always worked in university support…)

    3. JAM*

      Crazypants. I’m a manger in the UK and can invite anyone on my team or in the organisation to have an opinion on a candidate – as fa as I know there are no laws on ‘official panels’!

    4. Thinking out loud*

      My (US) company is very strict about doing “structured interviews,” to the point where they are required to ask exactly the same questions of each interviewee and document answers in order to show that they hired the right person (so they can’t be sued later for discrimination?). I wonder if the reason for your crazy is similar. (I am not government but most of our work is for the government.)

    5. Cristina in England*

      I’m no expert in UK employment law but this sounds like an overly cautious (yet not uniquely so) public sector culture to me. Americans get a reputation for being litigious about work issues, but people here can be just as bad, especially in the public sector.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Not in the UK. But I have been asked my opinion and then told in no uncertain terms my opinion did not have any weight.

      I kept my mouth shut and added nothing further about that particular question. See, it’s just human nature. They must think something of your opinion to ask in the first place. Probably they are using your opinion as a spring board to figure out what their own opinion is. If you are skeptical or negative, they might look more closely before proceeding. But they have to warn you that they and you are not supposed to be doing this. It’s a fine example of what happens under micro-management, really.

      This is one of those things where actions speak louder than words. They are telling you how to protect yourself so you do not get tangled up in legalities. So, don’t be talking this over with other people and don’t be overheard talking it over with other people. But do keep offering your opinion when asked. Call it informal power or opinion shaping or whatever, but it’s feather in your cap. I felt it was to my advantage to do this because I had some say about what went on in my work place. I felt that I stopped a few problems from happening because of this nonsensical system.

      1. first time commenter*

        That’s a good way to look at it, thanks.

        In the first case I mentioned I was scared slightly out of giving my full opinion (it was 80% positive so I glossed over the 20%; she didn’t take the job anyway), but I’ll try to look at it like this if the situation arises again.

  37. marina*

    I’m starting a new job in a few weeks (just two days after wrapping up my current job, but thankfully I’ll take a planned vacation about 1.5 weeks in!), yay! I would love folks’ thoughts on how to mentally prepare for and set myself up for success at the new job, especially since I feel some “attachment anxiety” to my current workplace. What’s worked well for others?

    1. Hazel Asperg*

      I started a new job three months ago, and I tried a few things: bringing in familiar foods and comforting things for lunch, making notes of people’s names (in a notebook, which I still refer to!) I also created a guide for myself based on the role description of my key performance targets, where I wrote down my expected regular, daily, weekly, monthly and ad-hoc tasks. It gave me a clearer idea of what the job would be like, and what kinds of expectations the employers might have, and what kind of things I should be aiming for.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      The first few weeks on a new job, I plan that I will be unusually tired from all the new info coming at me. I try to set things up at home so that I can spend a little more time relaxing or I can get to bed a bit earlier. It seems to help my mental clarity the next day if I invest in some down time at night.

  38. Adam*

    No question. Just asking for good luck wishes. The charity drive my organization is taking part in that I am responsible for coordinating starts today. It’s a good cause and I really want to do right by it, and right now I feel like the little kid who’s sitting at home worried that no one is going to show up to his birthday party. Fingers Crossed!

    3. Hlyssande*

      Good luck!

      …I actually had a birthday party where nobody showed up. I had invited 50 or so people for an open house type thing (turning 18). Yep.

      I hope your thing goes awesomely!

  39. Dawn*

    Hey so question for people who work for the Government or contractors working for the government (and don’t laugh at my ignorance at this): is the work pace just always super, duper slow?

    I’m working for a government contractor and it’s such a huuuuuuge difference in timescale on projects (my last job most projects had a 2 day turnaround, maaaaybe a week if it was a big project) with stuff having really long deadlines, and general communication takes longer and everyone just seems to be working in molasses.

    Is this normal for government work or is this just my office? It’s kinda driving me a little insane because I come from a work culture of “pass the ball as quickly as you can” where emails are almost instantly responded to and everyone’s zipping around getting lots of stuff done every day. It’s like switching from a Ferrari to a two-stroke motorcycle.

    1. Bee*

      I’m a contract work in the government and it is slow! I have literally spent my whole morning reading the news, and clicking on random sites. I have ZERO work to do. I’m at the point where I literally cry tears of boredom.

    2. Anon for this*

      Yep. In my case, it mostly comes from every item having to go through several layers of bureaucracy and meet several sets of policies before it can be final.

    3. Amber Rose*

      I would say it’s normal. When I held a certain government job I had a week to turn stuff around, but I hear since I left it’s been 2-3 months. And all my big projects when I was a file manager took about a year to get through government sign off.

    4. Future Analyst*

      UGH. Unfortunately, everything through the govt. is just slow. I’m sure there are small counties/cities/etc. that move faster, but from my experience (large county), everything just takes for-ev-er. I couldn’t hack it, and am headed back to a faster-paced environment, but even if you can adjust, there’s a steep learning curve.

    5. Nashira*

      It depends. My office has a super super super slow period, and a OH GOD MAKE IT STOP fast period, for everybody. Our cycles just don’t all sync up, if that makes sense. Right now, things are usual pace for me, while most of my coworkers ar3 scrambling.

      1. Charlotte Collins*

        This is my experience, too. And it really depends on what department you’re in and what your exact job is. There are often many layers of communication that can affect speed. Also, certain times of year are busier than others. The best thing to do is to identify projects that don’t need to be done right away to work on when it gets slow. Also, it’s a good time to think about how to improve or implement processes/services.

    6. hermit crab*

      I wouldn’t say that our working pace is slow, but we do definitely see a lot of hurry-up-and-wait where something must be done absolutely ASAP and then it takes three weeks to hear anything back after we send it off.

    7. The IT Manager*

      It depends, but your timing is funny because I just noted a lesson learned this morning that the schedule should be adjusted so that the government SMEs be given a more realistic time frame to review documents. It’s not that these people are lazy, but rather the documents requiring review are about 100 pages long and the people who need to review them are literally in meetings 6 or 7 hours a day. That doesn’t leave much time to devote to reviewing documents. Someone piped up and said that, yes, the contractor took 2 months to develop the document and to expect someone to review it in 2 days was unrealistic.

    8. Paige Turner*

      I’m so glad it’s not just me! I’m “working” right now, but clearly I’m not busy. I started three weeks ago and I am still filling out paperwork and waiting to hear back from people about basic stuff.

    9. Student*

      Gov contractor perspective:

      The pace at which a task gets completed is super slow.

      The work pace is super-fast. We are overwhelmed with work. Part of that load is the overwhelming level of paperwork needed to get things done, and the difficulty of figuring out what procedures need to be followed and who actually needs to sign off on things. The other part is just a plain old overwhelming level of ordinary work that needs to get done: constant fires to put out that are more important than the paperwork/procedures, constant interruptions to handle new requests or meet emergency deadlines, and a huge, looming backlog of work that requires concentration and time.

      1. Sunshine Brite*

        This! I’m a county worker and each case seems to take a million years overall but I’m constantly slammed and overwhelmed and so is everyone else in my position. The workload is just that where it’s out of control at all times and you’re always doing something but there’s always more to do.

    10. Anonicorn*

      I used to work for a contractor and it was indeed slow, at least the role I was in. I could tell there were some people who had regular work to do and some who, like me, went days without doing much because they had to wait for the sap to flow down to them.

  40. T3k*

    So, I need advice on how to tell my boss I can’t handle constantly work with customers.
    I was hired for design work, and I knew I’d work with customers sometimes, and the past few months were ok because the boss and another employee took care of most of the customers. However, the past week, it’s gone from about 33% of my time working with customers to almost 75% with customers who come to the store. The other employee hasn’t been here (I honestly don’t know if she was fired or on vacation) and every time a customer shows up, the boss tells the intern to have me handle it.
    As an extreme introvert, it’s draining me mentality to the point I don’t want to hang out with friends or family on weekends because otherwise, I won’t have time to recharge for the next work week. The only other way I see out of this is to take every other Weds. or Fri. off (it’d be unpaid) to help recharge without getting so fed up I’d quit to save my mental state (I get paid peanuts, but it’s better than $0 income atm). Unfortunately, half-days aren’t an option because it’s at least a 35 min. commute one way on a good day, so it wouldn’t be worth the gas.

    1. Jerzy*

      I think it’s fair to ask your boss what his expectations are about you dealing directly with customers, and to let him know that you think you would be most productive continuing to do design work during the majority of your time.

      You can also ask what the deal is with your suddenly absent co-worker, and if she was fired, ask if he’s considering bringing in a replacement.

      1. T3k*

        Unfortunately, we have a lot of down time at the moment for design work (although I’ve been using the extra time to re-organize computer files and make some of our programs work better for us. It’s a long term project because so much needs fixing).

        As for the absent co-worker, there was mention of firing her last week (or have her switch to non-customer part time work), but no mention of hiring someone, even though we’ve had several customers express interest in helping out, even if it’s part time. The main reason I think the boss doesn’t hire someone atm is because she can’t pay much for more help. If the co-worker doesn’t show up Mon. though, I do plan to ask about it.

  41. Jerzy*

    My nephew recently passed away from leukemia at 9 months old. My job was pretty great about me taking bereavement time for a non-immediate relative, especially since I hadn’t even completed my 90-day review period yet.

    Here’s the thing: this week, another co-worker had a nephew pass away. He was a 27 year old former Marine with what sounds like PTSD. My co-worker is a lovely woman and kind of the office mom. I want to be clear that I don’t begrudge her a thing. Loss is loss.

    As soon as it happened, the operations manager made sure everyone knew that they would be sending something to her house (an edible arrangement) from the office.

    The office didn’t even send me a card when my nephew had passed, and I didn’t expect them to do anything. I was happy enough to just get the time off to drive down for his funeral. But I can’t help but feel a little weird that the office made a point to send something to one person when they lost someone, but not to me. I’m newer than she is, but it’s not like I had just started a week before.

    Again, I don’t feel like my nephew’s death in any way entitles me to anything, but rather that I think it sends a message when all employees aren’t treated the same in very similar circumstances. I feel a little less appreciated here as a result.

      2. Jerzy*

        I’m sure that’s what it was. I guess I just felt weird expressing this thought out loud (especially to my husband, as it was his sister’s son who passed), but I needed to get it off my chest somewhere. Thanks for listening, and for your condolences.

    2. Another HRPro*

      I would not take it personally. You were very new to the company and people really hadn’t developed a relationship with you yet. It is very possible that with your co-worker they know that she has an especially close bond with her nephew just because she has talked about him over the years.

      Sorry for your loss.

      1. Beancounter in Texas*

        This is my thought. They knew that she had a close bond to her nephew and they just didn’t know how much your nephew meant to you. Different families have different bonds.

        Very sorry for your loss. I cannot imagine the grief.

    3. Christy*

      I imagine it was because you were new. Particularly, an office mom type will likely want a card and an edible arrangement. I can imagine your coworkers wondering what or if they should do for you and basically, not knowing and giving up. It’s not excusing them, but it would make sense to me.

      I’m sorry for your loss.

      1. Future Analyst*

        I agree, it can be hard to read a new person and know what they would appreciate.

        I’m sorry that you lost your nephew. :(

    4. nep*

      Condolences. So sorry for your loss.
      Agree with the above comments — don’t take it personally at all. I can easily see how this would have been more of an ‘automatic’ gesture with a person who’d been working with them for far longer. Perhaps not ‘fair’ but easy to see how this could happen.
      Peace and best wishes to you.

    5. Ad Astra*

      This is horrible, and I can understand how you’d feel slighted. Like you said, loss is loss. But, like others have mentioned, this was probably an oversight. If your coworkers knew how you felt, they would likely feel bad about. But there isn’t much they can do about it going forward, because this isn’t likely to be a recurring situation.

      Also, it might be that your coworkers weren’t really sure what to say when your nephew passed because you were new to the office and they didn’t know you very well. It’s natural that they might feel somehow more affected by the other coworker’s loss if they’re just generally closer to her.

      It’s still crummy that they made more effort to reach out to your coworker than to you. Not that it’s a contest, but the losses sound about equally painful and tragic. It’s not like one of you lost a child and the other lost an elderly second cousin you’d only met once. Your feelings about this situation are absolutely valid, but you’ll be better off if you can find a way to not take this personally.

    6. Sunflower*

      I would not take it personally. Death is weird for a lot of people and it’s difficult for people to know how to act or what to do when someone suffers a loss. My guess is since you’re new, they weren’t really sure what would be appropriate- turns out when you don’t know what to do, doing nothing seems to be the go-to move.

      Also you don’t really know the back story. If she was the office mom, there’s a good chance a lot of people knew what was going on with the nephew for a long time and it’s possible she expressed to many people her fear of this happening. It’s even possible they had met the nephew. I know it’s difficult but try to not take it personally and continue to surround yourself with friends and family. I’m sorry for your loss.

      1. Kelly L.*

        I was wondering this too–like maybe they lost sight of memorials really being for the living, and maybe had known the son personally.

        1. Jerzy*

          From what I can tell, they didn’t know my co-workers nephew personally, as he was her second husband’s nephew. ANother nephew of hers (by blood) works in the office, and he didn’t even know the one who had passed, and didn’t go to the funeral.

    7. afiendishthingy*

      I wonder if people felt extra uncomfortable because he was an infant. People often don’t know what to say to someone who’s grieving, and I think it’s exacerbated when a child passes away. It doesn’t make it right, they definitely should have sent a card, but I think they just didn’t know how to deal with the situation of a newish coworker losing a close relative in infancy. I’m very sorry for your loss. Do you have a picture or anything up of your nephew? Of course you should do whatever feels right in grieving for him, but if people see that you have photos up they may realize it is more than ok to mention how sorry they are for his loss.

      1. Jerzy*

        I definitely thought about that too. I didn’t hide the fact that he was sick, because we thought he was improving (often how cancer works), and I’ve had a picture of him on my desk from day one. Sick babies make people REALLY uncomfortable. I totally get that. And many people did express their personal condolences, so it’s not like my loss was ignored by my coworkers.

        1. TheLazyB*

          I’m so sorry about your nephew :(
          You and your family may appreciate the website glowinthewoods.com It’s not for everyone but really helped me in a similar-but-different situation.

    8. TootsNYC*

      I think the fact that the man who died was a veteran–especially if any aspect of his death might have been caused by his service to his country–has affected the company’s response a great deal.

      Maybe if you think if it that way–that the company’s audience is more than just this woman but it also her larger family (even though the edible stuff is going to her home, and it’s not “flowers to the funeral home to be seen by all the mourners)–it will make it easier for you to be charitable about the disparity.

    9. BRR*

      I’m sorry for your loss.

      I wouldn’t take it personally. Things slip through the cracks. Is it a possibility that the other person has been there a long time or perhaps they are really close to the operations manager?

    10. Not So NewReader*

      I am sorry for your loss.

      Losing children is so hard. I totally get that you feel left out of the loop when your coworker got more support.
      I think the fact that you just started the job is a key piece in understanding why this happened.

      I also know from reading and personal experience that grief magnifies everything. A slight becomes large, and as in your story here, an oversight can become huge. Grief and anger go hand-in-hand many times.

      Yes, it’s totally understandable that you feel less appreciated. Unfortunately, people don’t show us appreciation the way we need them to, rather they show appreciation in the ways they know how. Yep, sometimes we end up disappointed in what we see.

      Take the time to mourn the loss of this little guy. (Gosh, I could cry just typing this.) Get your tears out and do other things to process your grief first. See where that puts you. You might work with a bunch of jerks, or you might decide that the job is actually okay over all. This could go either way, really. But by focusing on the grieving that you need to do right now, you will have more mental clarity to collect your thoughts about your new workplace later. Just go one step at a time.

      My thoughts go out to you and yours.

  42. _ism_*

    My boss’s boss wrote today that I’m “doing great and turning into a wonderful asset from what I can see.”

    It was in response to a mistake I made, funny enough. He works at the corporate office and we don’t meet in person very often, so it’s nice to know I’m getting some recognition in the upper ranks even if most of them have no idea who I am or what do. It’s a nice contrast to how my boss responds to my mistakes.

    1. TootsNYC*

      That *is* nice. And how do you feel about this mistake now? You probably still feel bad about it, but from a much more powerful and confident place, right? Do you feel more empowered and motivated to be sure it doesn’t happen again? I’m betting yes.

      Congrats, too, btw. It means that when Boss’s Boss heard it was your mistake, his first mental thought was, “Oh, that’s unlike _ism_! Usually I hear only successes there. Let me encourage her/him.”

      1. _ism_*

        Well, I’ll certainly look even closer at who I copy on e-mails. I frequently get dinged for reply-all copying a customer or a corporate top hat when I’m being asked for updates by my supervisors. I don’t always know who is who when they loop me into a previous conversation.

  43. Should I stay or should I go?*

    I need some help from the group:

    I am in a small department and report directly to someone who is wholly lacking in leadership and management skills. He is self-absorbed, self-important, condescending and sometimes solely lacking in professional judgment. In addition, he is unsupportive of my career development efforts and actively blocks initiatives that I have identified to develop additional skills or would allow me to be visible to senior leadership. I hate interacting with him and on many days, I hate the thought of coming to work, knowing that I have to deal with him. I learn absolutely nothing from him and feel I am just treading water. I honestly believe that as long as he is my manager I will be permitted to do nothing other than the very job I am doing now. Unfortunately, despite the fact that he is not very good at his role, organizational leadership appears willing to tolerate him.

    I am weighing the “do I stay or do I go decision”. Taking another job will involve a relocation, home sale at a loss and likely a pay cut. One side of me says I have no choice but to leave. I see this situation going nowhere and inclination is to take another job that offers more career development opportunity or just another job that is not this one. Another part of me says that perhaps I should stay here for a while longer to develop more tenure in this position (I have only been here three years and I don’t want to look like a job-hopper). I think I should not let one person impact my career plans(and life) and maybe my boss will be found out for the incompetent he is and not stay very long. I know that I am not the first person in the history of time to have a
    bad manager and not everyone quits their job just because they happen to work for a jerk.

    Should I leave or try to “tough it out”? Thoughts? Advice? Commiseration?

    2. Shan*

      I ended up leaving my last job for a very similar reason. I felt trapped in a role that seemed like I would never be able to grow out of. While I didn’t have the issues of relocation and a pay cut, I would say it’s best for your mental health to get out of the position you are in.

      As for looking like a job hopper, I left my situation after only 8 months, so I think 3-years is a sufficient amount of time to not look like one. My advice for why you are saying you are leaving is “I am seeking professional growth, and don’t have the opportunity to do that in my current position”.

      Good luck!

    3. AdAgencyChick*

      Three years is a long enough time that you don’t have to worry about job-hopping.

      How long has this manager been there? I don’t think you can count on him being let go unless your company has a REALLY good track record of noticing bad fits and getting rid of them quickly. Based on my own recent experience, crappy managers are often kept around just long enough to do a serious amount of damage to their department, and THEN they are cut loose.

      Are there other internal opportunities you could explore that would then not require you to have to move to a new city?

    4. Dot Warner*

      When you dread going to work, it’s time to make a change. (Don’t ask how I know this.)

    5. Should I stay or should I go?*

      Thanks for the reply. On the relocation: I have no ties to this area and there are no other opportunities for my background in this area. Unfortunately, there are no opportunities for alternate roles within my organization. One reason I am contemplating staying is that this area is not a bad place to live and relocation is going to be a huge pain in the butt.

      Sadly, I find this comment to be spot on:
      “I don’t think you can count on him being let go unless your company has a REALLY good track record of noticing bad fits and getting rid of them quickly. Based on my own recent experience, crappy managers are often kept around just long enough to do a serious amount of damage to their department, and THEN they are cut loose.”

      I think deep down I know that the organization is not going to do anything about him. I just wish they would.

      1. Future Analyst*

        It sucks to come to that realization, but it can help, too. Identifying the reality of the situation helps to get you thinking about actually moving forward (and away, as the case might be). Good luck– this is a crappy situation to be in, but staying will not make it less so. Even if you have to relocate, you would no longer have to spend a significant number of your waking hours in such a miserable environment.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Adding: Upper management allows the situation to continue on and on. This is bigger than a crappy boss story. This is upper management asleep at the switch. You could end up with an even crappier boss after this dude.

    6. Should I stay or should I go?*

      I just want to add:
      I acknowledge that ( on paper) I am in a good position in a mostly good organization and I am fortunate to have it. My father has pointed out ” You should not let one person take away and drive you away from why you have worked so hard to achieve”. There is some truth in this and I sort of feel that I should not let one jerk cause me to incur a bunch of loss( smaller salary, relocation expense, house sale etc.) On the other hand, I just don’t see things getting better.

      Several people have advised me to talk to my manager to express what is making me unhappy and gently request change. I am not convinced this will work because he has trouble admitting that he is less than perfect in anything and he will see the discussion as being critical of him and a challenge to his authority
      (I have experienced this reaction in other discussions).

      Would any of you suggest trying to speak with him directly or should I just plan to leave?

        1. Should I stay or should I go?*

          It particular, I have been advised to approach him regarding my need for more development and skill broadening opportunities.
          ( Sadly, I don’t think I can have a conversation with him about what a jerk he is)

          1. BRR*

            I’m not quite sure if you mean internal projects or professional conferences. If it’s internal, can you ask to head certain projects or initiatives?

      2. Hlyssande*

        Your dad’s comment works really well…except when it’s someone who can make or break your career path. If it were a coworker, okay. Not when it’s your supervisor/manager.

      3. Dynamic Beige*

        If your manager has repeatedly expressed that they are not interested in developing your skills/career, there is nothing you can say to change their mind. Having been in a situation like that, I can honestly say that it’s not you, it’s them… but that’s not going to make your work life easier or better.

        Can you transfer or apply for an internal promotion/role somewhere else in the organisation?

        Here’s the thing: learn from my mistake. When you’re stuck in a situation like that, you stagnate. You have no incentive to improve your skills or care about your job and it just makes your whole life yuck. It may be very convenient for your manager that you just sit there and produce results but it’s not good for you. If you’ve just graduated and this is your first job, you should be learning all kinds of things — absorbing knowledge like a sponge and learning how to get better at what you do. It doesn’t look like that is going to happen here.

        So, you could sit down with your manager, perhaps in advance of your review, and ask him flat out how he feels you’re doing and that you’re interested in further development — “How does one go about being promoted here? Is there a track or required knowledge/skills that must be demonstrated in order to be considered?” This is not about *you* (exactly), it’s about how the place works. If he dismisses you or won’t tell you — is there an HR department? Because it’s hard to know if this guy is purposely blocking your progress because he’s lazy, indifferent, doesn’t know what the process is or the next step up is his job, which he won’t give up until he moves up/out. Someone else at that organisation must know.

        If you find out what it is (or even worse, like my situation, there is no obvious path and the answer is just No) then you have a choice: is it worth sticking it out and playing the game by their rules or not? Is it worth it to you from a quality of life standpoint to just show up, do your job and use your time at night to continue your education/work on your hobbies/other life stuff? There’s nothing that says you can’t freelance in your spare time, or work towards your next educational milestone. But, if you do hunger for more/better work-related experience (which, IMO, will be better for you in the long run), then getting a new job would be the way to go. You can always rent your house out if you don’t want to (or can’t) sell it and rent where you would relocate. Is the short term pain of tying up your house and moving worse than the long-term pain of going to a dead-end job every day? Only you know the answer to that.

        1. NacSacJack*

          Thank you. Based on this comment I have some heavy thinking to do in the near future. And I am not even the OP.

  44. inkstainedpages*

    I have been the executive director of a non-profit organization for about three years. The board of directors consists of about sixteen people and does not have term limits. I firmly believe in term limits (I know there are some people in my field that do not), and have always had the issue near the top of my big list of things to update about the board/organization. The lack of term limits is an issue because it does not provide much room for board turnover. The president has been on the board for 25 years and several other members have served for more than ten years.

    When my early attempts to have the board discuss adding term limits failed, I decided to bring in a consultant to back me up on this and a myriad of other organizational issues (the organization is in transition, just getting its first professional staff in the last few years, so there are growing pains). Sometimes boards listen better when an outside consultant suggests something rather than the director. The consultant did put in her report that the board needs to have a conversation about term limits, and talked about all the reasons many boards do have term limits.

    The discussion about term limits was on the board agenda (developed by me and the president) for the meeting this week. Although initially interested in having this conversation, while going down the agenda during the meeting, the president skipped the term limit discussion, saying “I don’t really want to talk about this right now.” At the end of the meeting, she came back to it and said “Does anyone really want to talk about this?” I jumped in with a quick recommendation for what the term limits could be (two three year terms with a year off, and then the ability to join again – these are typical term limits for our area). A board member asked if term limits are really necessary, and the board discussed the reasons outlined in the consultant’s report, including getting board turnover and adding diversity. Several people mentioned that diversity could be added without getting rid of current board members just by adding additional slots on the board (egads, sixteen board members is enough!). The whole conversation was rushed and sort of jokey, and it was obvious the board was not taking it seriously at all. The president asked if anyone really felt a need to make a motion about term limits, and the conversation ended with someone joking that they would table term limits indefinitely.

    Any thoughts on what I can do next to continue the conversation? I am at a loss since bringing in the consultant was my last-ditch effort. I am committed to staying with the organization for the long haul, but the lack of term limits on top of other board dysfunctionalities is really bringing me down.

    For those of you who serve on a non-profit board or work at a non-profit, does your board have term limits, and what are they?

    1. NJ anon*

      Our board has limits but I am not sure what they are. Unfortunately I do not have a great view of boards. They do what they want regardless. Do you have a board retreat or other annual brainstorming meeting where you can address this again? It doesn’t sound like they care but maybe you could try again.

    2. Amtelope*

      I think you’re unlikely to get a board full of people who don’t want term limits (and who’ve been there for literally decades and want to stay forever) to accept term limits, no matter what you do. I agree that boards should have term limits; I also think you’re banging your head against a brick wall here. Especially without the board president firmly on your side, I don’t see this change happening.

      1. Future Analyst*

        Agreed. Unfortunately, I don’t know if spending any more time/energy on this will make any difference.

    3. Chickaletta*

      I serve on a board that has a three year term limit with a mandatory three year break before rejoining. We’re actually considering revising the bylaws so that board members can run for a second consecutive term. The problem is that there’s so much turnover (9 board members, 3 new members elected every year) that it’s hard to maintain consistency on long-term projects. We’re constantly reinventing ourselves and revisiting issues to bring the new members up to speed. So short terms and turnover definitely come with their challenges too.

      That said, I administer another Board that has little turnover, especially in the higher positions. That can be very frustrating, especially when the people who don’t want to leave think they’re doing a better job then they actually are. (I have a treasurer, for example, who doesn’t share income/expense reports with the rest of the board because “they elected her because they trust her”. When she told me that I was just too stunned to know how to answer).

      The ironic thing is, these long-term people complain all the time that nobody wants to volunteer anymore, yet they’re often the ones who drive new people away by holding so tightly to the reins. I’m trying to think of long-term ways to manage it, by perhaps encouraging the stronger, fresh blood to take more responsibilities and show that what they do makes a difference. The older members might be more willing to relinquish responsibilities when they see that other people can competently handle the job.

      In the end, sometimes you can’t do anything. The people who are there year after year are probably passionate about what they do, and as long as they’re not doing anything illegal or driving the organization to an early grave, sometimes all you can do is let them be.

    4. Thinking out loud*

      My company has been trying to take away benefits from our unionized workers for years. The way that they eventually succeeded was by saying that all current employees would keep their benefits, but that NEW employees after [next year] wouldn’t get [pension/good health care/whatever]. Without getting into my feelings about this, I wonder if it’s an option for you? All current board members could be grandfathered in with no term limits, but as they leave, the new members would have term limits? If you could convince them to go for it, you’d still deal with the annoyance for a while – maybe for your entire tenure there – but the problem would eventually be solved.

        1. MsM*

          You might also want to look into advisory boards. The places I’ve worked have had a lot of success in using those to take advantage of former board members with great name recognition and lots of contacts or strong ties to the organization, but who don’t want to or aren’t able to play an active role in governance. If there’s somewhere for them to go that they’ll still be valued, you might have an easier time persuading some of the old-timers to step down.

        2. BRR*

          This is probably your best bet (from a crappy situation).

          My only other thought is you would need at least one current board member to start. If not I wouldn’t risk trying to get rid of my “bosses.”

    5. The IT Manager*

      It’s obvious that the president and other long term members do not want term limits because they don’t want to leave and very likely think they are doing a better job than anyone else could. Since these people control the board, I do not think you’ll be able to convince them to support term limits.

      This doesn’t really solve your problem, but could you grandfather it in so that all new board member have term limits, this way the board isn’t voting themselves out, but impact could well take years.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      One board that I am on has been focused on best practices. Of course, having a defined term is considered one of many best practices.

      I do think you are going the long way around to try to solve your problem. What do you want the board to do that they are not doing? Make a list. Speak directly to those issues.

      Here’s why: Boards have a funny/odd dynamic. You install new people and a lot of times the new people just rubber stamp whatever the old guard says to do. I really don’t think installing new people is going to solve whatever problems you are trying to solve.

      I do think there are too many board members. I cannot imagine the process for making a decision, ugh.
      I also know that board members should be there IF they have an area of expertise that is necessary for the organization. Being the board president’s favor nephew is not a qualifying expertise.
      There should be something in the by-laws that allows board members to remove a fellow board member who is not carrying his/her weight. Let me guess, there are no by-laws.

      I am on two boards currently. One has a two year term and the other has a three year term. A previous board I was on had a one year term. Getting re-elected or reappointed was never a problem- we are a small community with a limited pool of human resources. Warm bodies qualify. Here, most people get on a board and they stay on it until they decide not to do it anymore. But there are still terms in place.

      I think you next conversation should be about the problem areas you think the board needs to focus on. Be prepared that they do not want to deal with these things. And then that will become an in-your-face reality. You could end up very seriously reconsidering how much longer you want to stay on.

    7. Florida*

      We have a local foundation where the staff president is adamant about board term limits. Because this guy controls a lot of money, people are willing to do what he says. Do you have anyone like that in you area that can make a suggestion to the board?

      If you don’t have someone like that who is adamant about term limits, maybe the person is at least adamant that the board’s legal responsibility is to do what is best for the organization. If that means having difficult conversations even when they don’t feel like it, that’s what they do.

      There is a new book I plan to read called Fire Your Board Members by Simone Joyaux. I haven’t read it yet, so I can’t recommend it for sure, but I absolutely love Simone Joyaux’s stuff about nonprofits, organizational development, and fundraising.

  45. Trixie*

    Any AAMers who are also AFAA group fitness instructors? I’m thinking of registering for APEX this fall, so much cheaper through the convention which is a big help. I found the study guide online which I’m studying now, hoping I can forgo the additional materials.

    I’d also like to certify in pilates but the programs are a serious investment.

  46. Shan*

    A few weeks ago my cat was diagnosed with cancer, and I had to take a day off unexpectedly to get the diagnosis. I had read a few related threads on this site about dealing with sick days vs. paid time off in regards to pet care. I thought my boss would be okay with taking it as a sick day, but I ended up having to take it as a vacation day (even though I’ve been here for almost 4 months without taking a single day of my “unlimited sick days”). While that sucked, and I’m basically over the fact that I’ve lost a vacation day.

    On Wednesday, my cat passed away while I was at work, and after my sister called to tell me, I was given the okay to leave 2 hours early. However, as much as I have wanted to take a day off to grieve and handle arrangements, I decided against it because I didn’t want it to count against me.

    I work as an Admin Assistant who splits the responsibility of covering the front desk with another co-worker, which is the reason it’s so difficult to take a day off. Does anyone have any advice on how to handle taking sick days when it feels like they will be counted against you?

    1. Calliope*

      Don’t overshare. If you have separate sick days and vacation days, and sick days are only supposed to be used when you’re sick, but you don’t want an absence to count as vacation time, you call in sick. Don’t admit to your boss that you’re not really sick and then expect it to count as a sick day. (Not touching the ethics of doing this, just saying that if the result you want is getting to use sick time instead of vacation time, you’re not going about it the right way.)

      1. Shan*

        Yeah that’s a good point. Looking back I wish I didn’t share so much about the situation I was in. It just all happened so fast, and I was overwhelmed and didn’t have much of a chance to think about it.

      2. Shan*

        And also, we can take “personal days” and have them count as sick days, which is why I thought I’d be able to take at least a day once she passed.

        1. Calliope*

          Okay, in that case, I’m not sure what’s going on here. In general, you’re allowed to take personal days and have them count as sick days, but in this case, your manager said no? Can you get more guidance from your manager about what counts as a “personal day” and what doesn’t? I would assume I could use a personal day to take care of any personal business that couldn’t be handled outside of work hours, so I’d be equally confused in your place.

          1. Shan*

            I am definitely going to get more information from her or maybe HR about what qualifies as a personal day. From my understanding we have unlimited personal/sick days (within reason), but this was my first time needing to use one since I only started a few months ago.

            When I told my boss that I needed to bring my cat to the hospital, (the appointment was in the middle of the day, so going to office would have been difficult), she said we’d have to discuss further about how to count it. It was only last week that she said I’d have to take it as a vacation day. I’ll see if HR has guidelines about requesting days off, although I don’t anticipate having another situation like this.

          2. Sadsack*

            Yeah, I have personal days, but they are strictly for when you have to be absent for something that cannot be rescheduled, such as a funeral, financial or legal appointments, or personal sickness. Making arrangements for a deceased pet doesn’t usually have to happen during regular business hours, at least in my experience. Check with your mgr or HR for the policy.

            I am sorry for the loss of your kitty! I know that is hard.

            1. Shan*

              I appreciate it! It’s been very difficult.

              I am not so concerned about not being able to take yesterday and today off (although I wish I could have), I’m just more confused about the appointments for my kitty. If I didn’t bring her to the hospital the day I did (it was a Friday), I would have had to wait to get a diagnosis for her and getting her started on medicine. So it was pretty much an appointment that couldn’t be rescheduled.

              It’s just an unfortunate situation, and it’s okay I used a vacation day for it. I just need to learn more about the policy so I’m better informed in the future.

    2. CrazyCatLady*

      I don’t have advice on your specific issue (although it would be similar at my work place) but I wanted to say I’m SO sorry for your loss. It’s so hard to lose a pet, especially if you view them as part of your family.

      1. Shan*

        Thank you, I really appreciate it. I treated her like she was my child, so it’s been really hard to deal with. I am doing a burial service for her (some people think I’m crazy), but it seems respectable for her.

        1. Heather*

          Totally not crazy. Pets are such a huge part of our lives; more than some people realize. It’s up to you to remember and grieve your pet in the way that you want.

    3. Heather*

      I’m so sorry for the loss of your pet. :( I’m also sorry that you don’t feel you can’t take some time to grieve. My cat died almost two years ago and I found the grief very hard.

      1. Wishful Singer*

        Thanks, I appreciate it (also for making me feel less crazy for a burial). I am sorry for your loss as well. :(

        It’s been really difficult, but just knowing that she’s not in pain anymore is a little more reassuring. I am just glad that it’s Friday so I’ll have some alone time.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I am sorry about your cat.

      Next time just tell the boss you have a personal emergency to deal with. Hopefully, there won’t be a next time. What I like about this, is that you do not have to explain and feel like your explanation is being judged. Basically the boss will want to know when will you be back, so have a time frame ready. “I think I can handle this in an afternoon/day/ two hours/whatever.”

      Do be aware that although the boss may not ask what your personal emergency is, you do not want to have too many personal emergencies. Having too many defeats the plan here.
      This may or may not work to get the time off applied to the category you want. But it will save you the stress of explaining the situation.

    6. catsAreCool*

      I’m sorry about your kitty. That’s a tough thing to deal with, and not everyone gets that.

  47. Anie*

    I just can’t tell if I’m letting myself get overly annoyed at little things or if my co-worker is actually the most obnoxious person ever. Here’s a sample of interactions from this week:

    He came to me at 11:00am and said, “Is it time for our meeting with the COO?”

    I leaned around him, looked at her closed door, and said, “Looks like she’s still finishing that interview for the marketing position.”

    He asked, “Did she say when she’d be free?”

    I said, “Ahh no, she did not inform me how long her interview with a potential manager will be.”

    He said, “Well, I understand why she wouldn’t.”

    Pause. Me. “Oh do you?”

    He backs up (figuratively). “Well, I have a conference call with someone at 11:30.”

    Me: “Why did you set up an 11:30 when you already had an hour meeting with your boss’s boss starting at 11:00?”

    Him: “Wow, you must really think your sarcasm will get you places in life.”

    Also, he is constantly turning in stories (he’s a writer, I’m the editor) referring to Apple, Inc. as Apple Computer. That’s not a company name; I’ve never seen a single press release implying they prefer Apple Computer to, you know, just Apple; he’s writing about their non-computer products; and good god this must be an old people thing.

    Also, he doesn’t know how to minimize windows on his computer.

    Also, he doesn’t know how to log on to websites. As in, the login info autofills and I still have to walk to his desk and click “login” because he’s so confused.

    Also, I have a million of these.

    Oh, what about the time he reassured me I’d be a wonderful mother? And when I tried to deflect he was soooo understanding about how modern women like to focus on their careers first. But still, later, gonna be a wonderful mother.

    TL;DR gaaaaaaaaaaah what a useless rant

    3. Jerzy*

      Ah! Another person who doesn’t understand what sarcasm is! Brilliant! My husband works with one of those too. To be fair, my husband is often very sarcastic, but this guy accuses him of being sarcastic when asking a simple question (just like you did), and when he is being sarcastic, this guy thinks he’s being serious.

      Sounds like this dude you work with is a real winner. Maybe you’ll get lucky and he’ll retire soon!

    7. Anoners*

      Hrm. Could be an age thing. When I moved into my role I had an older employer going over what he did (which, wasn’t a lot of anything). He took 15 mins to explain how to attach a file to an e-mail. I just smiled and nodded while all my coworkers gave me a “whaaaaat” look.

      It sounds like you work with a monster though.

    8. Malissa*

      Okay I’m having flash backs. The best thing you can do for this coworker is to quit helping him. with anything. If he asks for help on his computer, “I’m sorry I’m working on X now.” When he asks you about something you’ve told him how to do 1,000 times, “I’m sorry we’ve covered this, maybe somebody else can explain it better than me.”
      Other phrases to have on hand, “Maybe you should request training on that.” “I’m sorry but I’m not doing that for you.” “What have you tried?” Also, “That’s not sarcasm, that’s a question.”

      2. Anie*

        My roommate suggested the standard, “Let me Google that for you” to heavily imply it’s all things he could easily find the answer to himself. The problem is, I think saying that would literally go over his head.

        He just asked me how to save pictures online. Like, looking at a picture on his browser. Save how? Ugh, in most cases I want to brush him off but I know he needs to send this crap to the owner for review/edits. We’re on such a tight deadline. The longer he takes, the less time I have to meet my own deadlines.

        1. Malissa*

          Can you let him sink? Is that an option?
          Otherwise I’d tell management that this guy is a time suck.

    9. bridget*

      This conversation would not irritate me coming from someone I generally liked. But I can totally see how it would be obnoxious due to his tone and that you already find him irritating. And the fact that there are a million of these – death by paper cuts.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      If it’s possible, stop doing so much for him. It is causing him to lose respect for you, I think.

      Tell your boss what you are doing and why. “I have explained to him six times how to minimize the windows screen. I am done explaining it to him. It’s part of the job. He also has problems with the login screen. I have explained that seven times. I think that he should be able to do these things on his own.” Go example by example, tell the boss what has been going on and that you will not be doing that anymore. Let the boss know there might be some fallout from this change.

  48. Amber Rose*

    My husband was offered a part time, on call position with our government health service. It means he’ll have to keep his current shitty job as well, but he’ll have access to internal government postings. Nothing is in writing until he gets the background check back from the police though, which sucks, but it’s a start.

    Yesterday was my 6 month mark at this job. Time sure flies.

  49. Natalie*

    Am I getting too irritated about this co-worker?

    My office was combined with another office and I took on all of the Teapot Bookkeeping Duties, while the other office’s bookkeeper moved laterally to Teapot Production. She seems like she can’t let go of her job, though. The latest: she’s been editing my work unnecessarily, which would normally just be vaguely insulting but is actually adding to my workload because she keeps introducing errors. These edits are essentially just her imposing her own style on my work, like if she reformatted all my writing from ALA to Chicago in an office that has no published style guide and no policy on style. And was using an outdated Chicago style guide so I have to re-edit the finished product anyway. And we’re peers.

    I’ve emailed her a couple of times about this, which she just ignores (this is a habit of hers) so now I’ll have to call her and ask her what’s up. Am I getting to irritated about this? Is it unreasonable to just tell her to stop. now.?

    1. Cambridge Comma*

      How does she get hold of your work? Can you stop her seeing it / if it’s a Word file, lock it?

      1. Natalie*

        Unfortunately, no. There’s one part of it that she is supposed to review, so she has to see it. She’s editing all of the rest of it that has nothing to do with her, and with the system we use there’s no way to separate one from the other.

    3. Anie*

      Nope, not cool. If you’re not being asked to edit something or if the thing isn’t customer-facing anyway, HANDS OFF.

      I’m in publishing and a friend recently came to me with a story. She’d compiled some info and passed it to a colleague for thoughts on the content. The woman edited the grammar instead–all incorrectly–from the shared folder without tracked changes. Yeah, basically had to run though it with a fine-toothed comb after that. Thanks for nothing!

    4. Malissa*

      Have you gone back and asked her to explain her changes? Offer her an hour to explain why she does what she does. Then come to an agreement on how to proceed. It sounds like she’s feeling steamrolled. A little conversation could go a very long way here.
      If she continues to actively cause you more work take it to management.

        1. Malissa*

          I know this isn’t what you want to hear but schedule an hour with her face-to-face if you can.
          If not take this to management. She’s being an unnecessary pain.

    5. Thinking out loud*

      Maybe talk to your manager? Using your analogy, “I’ve noticed that when I ask her to review the [thing in your file], she has also spent some time updating my ALA style to Chicago style. I’ve always preferred Chicago and was under the impression that we don’t have a published style guide, and I’m sure she has more important things to be doing in Production, so I don’t want her to waste her time making updates. Do you have any preference between ALA and Chicago? If not, I’ll let her know that you’re okay with me making the switch so that she can focus on her new work.”

      THEN I’d go talk to her and tell her that although you know you’re doing things differently, your manager is on board with you switching to Chicago – it might be more successful because my guess is she thinks you’re doing it “wrong” and is trying to fix it.

    6. Isben Takes Tea*

      Anytime a coworker adds to your workload unnecessarily, it’s reasonable to tell them to stop.

  50. wannabephoenix*

    Do work years need to be on my resume?
    If so. how do I edit my resume to show previous places of employment when I work in a dying industry and almost all of the places I worked at are now out of business and the ones that aren’t have changed so drastically there is no one there who knows me?

    1. TootsNYC*

      I never understand this question.

      You just put them down, the same way you do the companies that are still in business.
      Hiring managers aren’t dummies; they know companies go out of business.
      If you’re afraid that the company will be completely unfamiliar, feel free to add a parenthetical to describe them.

      March 2009 to August 2011 Marketing Manager, Allied Provincial (teapot importer with ties to China and Vietnam)

      I don’t think you even need to say “out of business now” on your resumé

      Hopefully you’ve been able to hold onto links to some of the people whom you worked with or for at those companies; that’s always a good goal, so if you haven’t in the past, do it going forward.

      1. TootsNYC*

        Oh–and “no one there knows me”–the company will hopefully have records going back many years.

        And for references other than your current manager, it’s completely normal for the candidate to supply all that information. I would never cold-call a company and ask to speak with someone who knew an employee from 12 years ago. Or at least, not with any expectation of success.

    2. Snargulfuss*

      Are you asking if you need to include dates on your resume? Yes. Just list the name of the place of employment and the dates you worked there. You don’t need to worry about whether or not the company is still in existence or if there is anyone still there who knows you. Employers look at your resume as a way of gauging what YOU can do. If they want to speak with someone else to get a reference they’ll ask for reference contact information. In most cases you don’t need to include supervisor contact information on your resume.

  51. Eugenie*

    Today is my retiring boss’ last day in the office and on Monday my promotion takes effect basically stepping into his (very very large) shoes. Getting more and more nervous about the transition — both managing people who used to be my peers (though I have good professional relationships with all of them — I think) and learning and executing a lot of complex financial operations I don’t have experience in.

    Not really a question, but any tips or support would be incredibly welcome!

    2. Thinking out loud*

      An unreachable goal sucks, but a big challenge is the best way to grow. Try to remember that you were selected for this job, and someone (probably many someones) think that you can do it. Be honest about what you don’t know, and then seek out knowledgeable people to help you learn it. You can do it!

    3. Paige Turner*

      No tips, really, other than remembering that when your retiring boss started off, he probably felt like you do now- you don’t have to be exactly like him, and you don’t have to reach his level immediately (you want to do a great job, obviously, but I mean you shouldn’t have to know everything right away like he does now after years and years of practice).

      Go get ’em :)

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Much success! Remember you are looking at your boss after years possibly decades of experience. Do not compare yourself to him, going down this road will not serve you well. Take his best practices and make them your own. And develop your own best practices for other things as needed.

  52. Lying Bosses*

    Happy Friday ya’ll! I have my own lying boss story and I’d like to hear your two cents.

    My boss is a smooth talker and a spin artist. She’s a classic case of “smile in your face, stab you in the back”, even though she doesn’t like to do her own work so she would not truly benefit from getting either me or my coworker fired. However, this hasn’t stopped her from perpetually throwing shade at us.

    I had suspicions but never used to have any proof of this until my coworker and I began to compare conversations we’ve had with her and convos she’s had with us about other people. Basically, very little of what she says is true and she has tried to turn us against each other in the past (coworker started in March, so still fairly new). It was pretty much just us communicating with each other that allowed us to see what she was really about, but again, no hard proof here because she’s very slick. Except yesterday I came across an email sitting on her desk and in it was a blatant lie about my coworker and I (she was out of the office). The email was addressed to the Chief of Staff and some other higher level employees. The lie itself wasn’t the worst ever, but it painted us as incompetent and going behind her back to get things done, which truly wasn’t the case (not to mention, it was really a bold faced lie. If anyone wanted to check up on it, they could have and the proof would be right there).

    At this point, I feel conflicted because this is the only time I’ve seen hard evidence but at the same time, it doesn’t seem egregious enough to make a big deal of it. Yet there is no reason to lie about something like that so I feel her bosses should know (especially since if you’re lying about that foolishness, what else are you lying about?) I’m a hard worker and thankfully I was hired before she was so I’ve had an opportunity to make sure my work speaks for itself, but lately I’ve noticed that those same higher level employees are speaking to me like I’m clueless, which is not encouraging to me. Is there anything I can do with this information? I’m definitely looking for another job but I feel like I owe it to myself to keep my reputation in tact, especially since she lies for the sole purpose of making herself look good.

    1. abracadabra*

      There’s lots of info on how to deal with narcissistic (and B-personality) bosses. I’d take it as a big deal. Your boss is (continually) undermining you and your co-worker in order to make herself shine while ruining your reputations to leaders at the same time. Classic narcissistic boss maneuver. This way she has control over your career while you are there, and she isn’t going to cut you any favors or reward you unless you suck up to her (irregardless of your work). In the past, I’ve fought the good fight…gone to HR when things were getting really ugly. But, HR is only out to protect the company, will not keep things confidential, and are not in your favor. If peers and leaders see your boss’s true colors, they may run her out of there, but you, being her direct report, don’t have a lot of options. I’d advise moving to a different area (or working under a different manager) or getting out of there.

      1. Lying Bosses*

        I agree with you about HR. At my organization, though, she does have a bad relationship with the HR Director so they may be inclined to help me. However, as you point out, regardless of any personal feelings, if they are doing things properly there will probably be no confidentiality.

        I am really skeeved out about the lying thing, though. Trying to run for the hills.

    2. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Not sure if there’s anything you can do; I’ve had a similar boss in the past, blatantly taking credit for my work and weirdly lying about stuff. One day, a client pulled me aside and mentioned that they all knew I was the one doing the work, so your higher bosses might know what’s up with her even if it doesn’t seem like it.

      But I can’t offer any other advice, I left that job quickly!

    3. Malissa*

      Oh I see you work for my old boss! Can you go to her boss and discuss the situation? I’m sure they’d actually appreciate it.

      1. Lying Bosses*

        Unfortunately, her boss is the Chief of Staff (mentioned above). I’d love to go to her about it, among other things, but I’m not sure how to word it. I feel like as my boss’s direct report, she is already aware of many of my boss’s inconsistencies and has not done anything about it, so I’m worried about going to her because they do seem to have a good relationship.

        1. Malissa*

          Start with “I know this is awkward but I found this the other day and it’s making me uncomfortable…” Also include that you have seen a unfavorable shift in the way other departments are dealing with you.
          You may be giving her the ammunition she needs to help move this lady out.

  53. Dot Warner*

    I have a question about giving notice: So, I have a tentative offer from an employer which should (fingers crossed) turn into a firm offer today or Monday. I can’t give notice today since my boss and I are both out of the office, so my question to you guys is: if I give notice on Monday, July 13th, would Friday, July 24th count as two weeks’ notice?

    1. Sara The Event Planner*

      I say yes, that definitely counts! You’ll be working 2 full work weeks, especially if you’re able to give notice Monday morning (although I don’t think that matters so much).

    3. EmilyG*

      It would in my book too. But if I were the hiring manager at the new company, and I really wanted you to start on 7/27, I would understand that I probably should have gotten you the offer by today, or even last Wednesday to give you time to mull it over/negotiate, and give notice today. If you felt like you had to make 8/3 your start date instead of 7/27, I’d be okay with that. (I might be hyperaware of this because my org only lets people start every other Monday, so I’ve had to be really on the ball about getting offers to people in time for them to give notice so as not to delay their start too much.)

      1. Dot Warner*

        Actually, the plan is for me to start in August, but I’ll be moving cross-country so I’ll need a little buffer between current job and new job. :)

    4. LaLa*

      It’s also a lot cleaner to have your last day on Friday versus the start of the week IMO

    5. NacSacJack*

      Yes. What I understand from Mom (HR General) is you give notice on a Monday for a week from Friday. So, you work MTWThF-MTWThF. Essentially 10 business days. I felt guilty the one time I gave notice on Tuesday for a week from Friday and the business I went to gave me the offir on Monday and asked me if I could start the following Monday. I looked at them askance. Turns out I should have run fast, run far.

  54. Beancounter in Texas*

    I learned through a recruiter that I’m the top candidate for a bookkeeper’s position (accounting services department) with a CPA firm. The company sounds awesome, but there are some changes to my work style I would have to accept that make me cautious about accepting a job offer, should it be forthcoming. How do y’all compare jobs and decide whether to jump ship or stay the course? Any pointed questions that help you decide?

    Or I can comment with details if anyone really wants particulars, but I’m wordy.

    1. Thinking out loud*

      I’d talk to the new firm and try to understand as much as I could about the changes that would be necessary and try to decide from there. Details are great if you want to share, but it really comes down to what good things the new opportunity brings and whether they offset the changes you don’t like or aren’t sure of.

    2. ali*

      I literally make pros and cons lists. And ask myself “are the things I’m wanting to get away from really that bad, and are they better or worse than the potential new problems?”

    3. TheLazyB*

      I give myself a day or two without trying to think about it, then go with my gut :) but pro/con lists also work!

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Sometimes you can find one area of concern that trumps everything else. For example one place I applied to insisted on buying and wearing their clothes. Several hundred dollars an outfit? At minimum wage? Gee, no thanks.
      There could be something you object to on an ethical level, even though it is perfectly legal. If the company does X and you really, really have an issue with X this could be a problem in years to come.

      Lastly, I always think that I should not be so impressed with a company/job/rate of pay that I throw away core parts of me. I worked a second shift job years ago. I totally ignored the fact that second shift was a really bad idea for my setting (numerous reasons). Loved the job, love the paycheck but could not function in my daily life. The bills were paid but I felt very alone in the world as I did not get to see my friends and family. In yet another poor choice, I chose a job at a place that was nothing I could relate to. The place was fine, it was just so far out of my norms that it was not just a stretch, it was impossible for me to keep up with the many aspects of the job. I was a fish out of water.

      So as you are making your list of concerns, keep an eye peeled for that one deal breaker. If you find it, you have your answer.

  55. wannabephoenix*

    Having a thirty year work history, are approximate dates good enough for work history? I know the years I worked, not the start-end months.

    1. SevenSixOne*

      I say I started/left in June if a rigid online app requires a month. I can’t imagine any employers would care about the exact start/end dates of all but possibly your most recent job.

    2. TootsNYC*

      I can never remember exact dates either.

      I use months for recent stuff, and as the listings get older, I stop and just use years.
      I don’t think it’s ever hurt me.

    3. The IT Manager*

      I think you should put the months and years if at all possible (don’t worry about days). You probably shouldn’t be listing jobs from more than 10 years ago without a really good reason like very specific experience/skill that you haven’t used since then so it should be easier to remember in general the month you started and left jobs in the last ten years.

  56. Alston*

    So my little brother just graduated from college! He has an degree in Economics and a lot of Accounting course work. He doesn’t think he’s qualified for anything remotely accounting related (I keep telling him I worked in Accounts Payable for years with far less experience, but he’s not convinced yet).

    He’s been dutifully sending out applications and cover letters but is not getting responses. The cover letters are pretty good, I think the problem is his resume and his general lack of work history.

    He worked at a Game Stop and as a stocker at a Warehouse during college. He’s had nothing office related, and nothing during the last two years of college at all.

    The types of jobs he’s applying to are phone based tech support, and entry level office jobs. How does one get their initial office job?

    The one thing I could thing of was temp agencies–he’s practicing his typing speed so he’ll be able pass the screen, but any other ideas? Or advice on types of places he should be targeting?

    1. Natalie*

      Just another datapoint, but I’m a bookkeeper and my bachelors degree is in US history. I’m doing accounting coursework *now*, but very little of it is relevant to my day to day tasks. Bookkeepers and clerks don’t generate or read income statements!

    2. Shan*

      Congrats to your little brother!

      I graduated college a year ago, and originally wanted to work in marketing. I ended up searching for admin assistant positions, and had a much easier time getting interviews. I like the position I am in now, because I am able to learn more about the company and meet people in different departments. I am not sure if that is something he would be interested in, but I found it to be an easier way to gain office work experience.

      I do also know that my company is hiring entry level financial analysts (I work at a relatively large IT company if that helps). There are definitely some entry level positions available, but I do know the struggle of trying to find the right one.

      Good luck to him!

    3. TootsNYC*

      I once edited a resumé for a kid who worked in the cafeteria and found all sorts of things she can brag about that make her really attractive at almost any entry level job.

      So, on his resumé, is he truly calling out stuff he did that would translate? I would think that a stocker at a warehouse would learn computerized inventory-tracking systems, follow-up, etc., that would absolutely translate to a general office job. What sorts of soft skills has he learned that he can call out?

    5. Chrissi*

      I was an Econ major and I wished, so badly, that I had some accounting classes in with that. It would have broadened the scope of jobs I could apply for. Also, many employers think that Econ=Finance, which it decidedly does not at most schools (social science instead of business), but those accounting classes will make it so he can apply to those jobs too!

      The Bureau of Labor Statistics, Bureau of Economic Analysis, and Census all hire econ majors (see http://www.usajobs.gov) in various cities. The accounting classes also mean he may qualify for jobs w/ the Federal Reserve, SEC, and IRS. If he was at all interested in gov’t at least :)

    6. Ineloquent*

      I graduated with a degree in economics a few years ago, and I found that, for me, that best way to get into a good position is to go though a contracting agency. Temp work is fine and dandy, but I personally have found that contracting leads to better paying, more interesting positions. Depending on where your brother is geographically located, I may even be able to mention names.
      My old econ professors also tend to send out occasional emails that they receive from recruiters who ask them to look out for students and recent grads who may have an interest in the job their filling.

    7. Sunshine Brite*

      I know things have to be turning around now, but outside the people who had connections when I graduated new grads were struggling hard. The playing field has changed and unless you’re only a few years older then your experience of being able to do something higher with less doesn’t hold as true in my experience. I got my first office type job by doing the direct support type work for awhile and then getting a graduate degree and additional internships.

  57. Ruffingit*

    My employer gets more and more ridiculous every week. Although we’re exempt, salaried employees, we now have a sheet we have to use to note the time we arrive and leave work and the time we leave for lunch and return. It’s just so insulting. I’m so tired of the ridiculousness here. Several months back they had us keeping track of our activities every 15 minutes until I asked if we could stop because of how much time it was taking to do. No one here has issues with being on time, long lunches, etc. We are also not a business that has billable hours. So tired of being treated like this. Resumes going out this weekend.

    1. TheExchequer*

      I’m tired of the ridiculousness at my work too. Here’s some good vibes for your resumes!

    2. Another HRPro*

      The tracking of activities sounds like a job study. Organizations do this when evaluating the job to determine grade (level). Have you asked your boss why all of this is going on?

      1. Ruffingit*

        It wasn’t a job study, it was to make our lives hard because the boss is an unreasonable jerk and does things like tho often. Three people work in this department. Two of us do the same job requiring a state license and the other is an assistant. There are no job grades here, there’s just ridiculous behavior where we’re treated like children.

  58. freelancelot*

    Question for all the freelancers, self-employed folks and other people without “real” jobs: How do you list long-term contract gigs on your resume and on job applications?

    1. Erin*

      ^Yes, someone please weigh in here. I’m in the same boat unsure how to include freelancing on my resume.

      I have it listed as a “key result” that I’ve had X number of articles published in the last few months, but I’m not an employee at this particular publication. Is it fair to list them as an “employer?”

      (Sorry for building on top of your question instead of answering it freelancealot.)

      1. freelancelot*

        No worries, Erin. That’s something I can’t figure out either– I want prospective employers to know I designed a store display for Teapot Depot, but I wasn’t an employee of Teapot Depot.

    2. Chickaletta*

      On my resume, I list my freelance work under the name of my LLC, which sometimes feels ridiculous because it’s named after myself. I mention the major accomplishments under it, just like any other job.

      I had a contract job for three years about ten years ago, and this is how I list it:

      Teapot Specialist (2003-2006)
      Contract Co. (at Teapot Inc.)
      Blah blah blah

      Online job application forms are trickier because there’s different was to respond to all that detailed info about address and manager: is it the company I contracted for or the company I worked at? Usually I go with the stronger reference, which is the company I worked at (ie Teapot Inc). The managers there know me better than the person at the contract company who only knew me by my paystub. At some place in the job description I clarify that it was a contract job and mention who the contracting agency was so that hiring mangers know what was going on.

      I’d be interested to hear from hiring managers though if there’s a better way to approach this.

      1. Erin*

        Thanks for your thoughts. I almost mentioned the online applications in my comment – that is indeed a problem, but then again, there are several problems with online applications. :)

    3. TootsNYC*

      I’ve had people put “freelance” in parens after the job title.
      I’ve had people include “contract assignment” or “freelance position” as the first item in the list of accomplishments/duties.

      I’ve had people do something like this:

      2013 – Present Freelance/contract designer/author
      Clients/Articles published in: Company A, Company B, Company C

  59. Anon for this*

    So it continues to be a challenge to work with new colleague (long story). I’m beginning to think and plan my exit strategy from this organization. I’ve tried to resolve the issues with new colleague. I’ve gone to my supervisor but don’t feel that supervisor has my back. This is the first time in my 14 year professional career that I’ve struggled to work with a colleague. But I only have 1 year of management experience. All previous work experiences has been in providing direct service in social service settings.

    1. How do I market myself for management positions with only 1 year of experience?
    2. How to answer the question “why are you leaving your current employer”?

    1. Product person*

      I don’t know about question #1, but for #2, just forget that your main motivation to leave is a challenging colleague and passive supervisor. I’d focus on anything else that you can say about the work and it’s also true:

      “After 3 years with this company, I feel my mission has been accomplished here, and it’s time for me to pursue new challenges. In particular, I’m looking into management positions that will allow me to put my X and Y skills to use…”.

      “When I started my current job, the work was more focused on X and Y. With time, the bulk of my work has shifted to focus more on A and B, which I don’t feel play as much to my strength. I’m looking for an opportunity to go back to having most of my activities concentrate on X and Y, and that’s what attracted me to apply to the position you have…”

  60. Folklorist*

    What’s the most ridiculous reason you’ve ever missed work?

    Wednesday, my shirt was getting old and very scratchy, and my bra did a weird twisty thing and the underwire broke/started cutting me. I was so uncomfortable that I left work at 3:30 to run and buy a new bra/shirt, thinking it would be quick and I could be back in an hour. It took waaaaayyy longer than I thought–2.5 hours just to find a bra! (I have a weird size.) The whole time, I just kept thinking how ridiculous it was that I was trying on bras instead of finishing my assignment!

    (Still got everything in on time! It was just super-awkward and I didn’t want to tell my boss why I was skipping out.)

    1. Katie the Fed*

      I burned the heck out of my hands once trying to pour coffee into a mug. It was in college and my coffee pot was next to my bed, and I tried to pour it without actually sitting up. Yeah…needed the coffee to get the coffee. I had to go to the health clinic and missed work.

    2. wannabephoenix*

      camping a boss spawn in the original everquest to get my epic weapon back in the early 90s before gaming was prevalent. I had the boss spawn times- it only spawned every 72 hours. When it would spawn on my work day, I would call in.

        1. TootsNYC*

          intestinal upset can come on quickly and subside without leaving visible traces (unlike colds with their runny noses)

        2. wannabephoenix*

          just called in sick, no details, just vague references to upset stomache and not being able to travel very far from a certain room

        1. Kelly L.*

          She was playing a video game and needed to beat a bad guy. The bad guy only showed up at certain times, so she would call in if the bad guy was going to appear during her work hours.

      3. Anonicorn*

        Haha! This reminds me of when I was monitoring a website connected to my game’s marketplace for a certain item that sold very rarely. I finally saw it up, raced home to login to my game & buy it, then raced back to work. Fortunately I lived 10 min away, but I couldn’t bring myself to explain to anyone why I needed to leave.

    3. Kelly L.*

      Rescuing a stray dog. I was crossing the street to the bus stop and it appeared and started following me, so I missed the bus to take it back to my place and start calling/posting. Fortunately, (a) it was the slow season and (b) my boss was also a huge dog lover and knew I was too. So calling in with “Um, there’s this dog…” just got a chuckle out of her.

    4. Amber Rose*

      I was thinking I didn’t have one, but I do! Once, I left early because I was rained on.

      It had been threatening to pour all day. As the first drops started to fall, I saw a lady in the parking lot struggling to get some stuff into her trunk so I went over to give her a hand. Just as she finished thanking me and drove away, the sky fell. In three seconds flat I was soaked to the bone and my manager told me to go home because I was dripping all over the floor. She was pissed, but as far as I was concerned, I helped someone and there’s no shame in that.

    5. PontoonPirate*

      When I lived in an old rowhouse in DC, I shared with a roommate who worked night shifts at a radio station. Unbeknownst to me, when she came in from her shift around 5-6 a.m., she broke the lock in the front door. So I’m rushing out the door to go to my job (which was an unhappy place in the first place), and I can’t. get. out.

      Now, being a rowhouse in D.C., all the first floor windows have bars on them, and the backyard is completely fenced in, as is all of the neighboring yards. I don’t have access to the basement level with the garden door. Super!

      I had to call a locksmith to let me out of my own damn house, and I made him write me a note because I was certain my boss would never believe me. It took nearly four hours to get to work and good thing I had that note.

    6. Joie de Vivre*

      We had a bad storm one night and a little mini-tornado (not the actual term – I don’t remember the real one) uprooted a 60-70 foot tree that fell right across the driveway, blocking my car in. We’re not in an area where this type of weather is common and there was only about 3-4 blocks out of the whole region affected, so it seemed a really strange reason to miss work.

      1. K*

        A few years ago there was a mini-hurricane in my area and although the weather was fine the next morning, half the roads were flooded so I kept on having to turn around and find alternate routes. In the end it took me 1.5 hours to get to work instead of the normal 45 minutes. I was freaking out about what I would say to my boss but when I finally showed up, he wasn’t there. Turns out he had a doctor’s appointment that morning.

    7. Heather*

      I locked myself out of my apt once. And left my keys inside so I couldn’t drive to work. It wouldn’t have been such a big deal except my boss was such a super beyotch it was. I actually only missed about 15 minutes (or less) I think. Anyhow what had happened was my door had a dead bolt and a lock in the door knob. I was leaving; grabbed my bag and left and locked the lock that was in the door knob…….and didn’t have my keys. Argggh. So I walked to the pay phone (this was before cell phones) and called a locksmith and called my boss and left a message on her voice mail that I had locked myself out and would be in as soon as I could. So I went back to my building. I had left my window open and since I was in a basement suite I realized I could pop the screen and get back in. (Needless to say I didn’t leave those windows open anymore!!). So I called the locksmith to cancel and called my boss back and left another message saying it was all fine and I’d be in right away. So I get to work and the first and only thing my boss says to me is “you need to get better locks”. Ok – thanks for asking if everything is ok. Admittedly it was a boneheaded thing to have happen but if you’ve worked there for a period of time and this is the first thing that’s happened like that I think her reaction was a bit extreme.

    8. ginger ale lover*

      I have many.

      The weirdest is that I had gotten a letter in the mail saying that I had a warrant out for my arrest. The background on that is that I had gotten a ticket. I went in to pay but it didn’t register on their system for some reason but I had kept the receipt. I called the courts/police and told them that I had taken care of it in a timely manner and they were able to verify that it had been a mistake but the warrant would be active until a certain time that day because they couldn’t get it off the system immediately. I called into work to tell my boss that I didn’t want to be arrested at work and I would be in as soon as the police said the warrant was taken off of their system.

    9. AnotherFed*

      When I was much younger and much dumber, my dog got in a fight with the neighbor’s dog one morning before work. I knew the neighbor’s dog and dog sat for them sometimes, so I was an idiot and waded in hands first to try to separate the two (thinking they both knew me and would stop), and of course got bitten by both dogs. I eventually got them separated, and I was the clear loser – they were both pretty much fine. I knew they’d had all of their shots, but was terrified to report it because I was afraid one or both of them would get put down for biting a person, so I called in sick that day and claimed I’d sprained my wrist so that I had an excuse to hide my arms and hand for days while I healed.

    10. LBK*

      I have the reverse – probably the most ridiculous thing I didn’t miss work for. I somehow managed to tear one of my contacts towards the beginning of a shift once and proceeded to just work for another 6 hours or so half-blind. This was retail, too, so it wasn’t just a case of staring at a computer but talking to customers while not really being able to see their faces. I don’t know what compelled me to not run home and get another one (it would’ve taken an hour max).

    12. Mary in Texas*

      My garage door wouldn’t open and I couldn’t get my car out. Turns out there’s a release where one could open it manually. I saw it and tried it, but it was so hard that I couldn’t get it to budge. But it’s the absolute truth!

    13. Chrissi*

      I was walking to the train and it was super icy out. My feet went right out from under me and I landed flat on my back in the middle of the sidewalk. Even after I got my breath back, I just laid there for like 5 minutes trying to convince myself that it was worth it to get up and go to work and the universe was not actually telling me to go back to bed, but instead I went back home and took leave for a couple hours, then went in. I am not a morning person.

    14. Cath in Canada*

      I didn’t miss work for either of these, but I was late both times:

      1) Turned on wrong stove hotplate making breakfast and set fire to an oven glove. Couldn’t leave the house because I needed to leave the door open for a few hours to let the smoke out. Worked from home in the morning and went to the office in the afternoon.
      2) Was an hour late because I started updating my phone software when I first got up (6 am, I thought I had tons of time) and it took waaaaaaaay longer than it should have, and obviously I couldn’t go to work without my phone (“is this legal?”).

    15. Folklorist*

      I am enjoying this immensely! Alison needs to turn this into a stand-alone “Ask the Readers” question and post the Top 10 to US News.

    16. Sara*

      In Peace Corps, I missed a week of work because I was (potentially) exposed to rabies and had to go to the capital so that they could give me post-exposure shots/observe me to make sure I didn’t develop rabies.

    17. TheLazyB*

      I thought i didn’t have one, but: when I was at uni some large pieces of wood started falling off the house next door, too close for comfort to our front door. The fire brigade were called and told us not to leave. So we went to my mate’s room to watch :)

      We could have used the side door to go to our lectures. This was 20 years ago and I only just realised :-o

    18. SaraV*

      It was towards the end of winter, and I had planned to wear a pullover v-neck sweater over a gray t-shirt. I have about half an hour drive to downtown. I’m 20 minutes into my drive, and realize I never put the sweater on. (My coat must have kept me warm) Just a gray t-shirt would not have passed as suitable in my office. I pull into the nearest Target, found a nice long sleeved shirt on the clearance rack, and then went straight into the bathroom at work to change. I was about half an hour late.

    19. Anonymousaur*

      I didn’t miss work but I was definitely late. When I was in college once I accidentally set my alarm clock for 8PM instead of 8AM. Whoops.

      1. Anonymousaur*

        I should note that I didn’t actually sleep until 8PM. I woke up on my own (no alarm) around 10AM (I was supposed to be there at 9…)

      2. catsAreCool*

        When I was about 18 and working at a fast food place, I forgot about daylight savings and was an hour late to work. The manager called me. When he found out what happened, he laughed and said to come in an hour late. I worked really hard at the job and had always come in on time before, so he wasn’t too worried. I was deeply embarrassed.

    20. PersonallyAssisting*

      I didn’t have any hot water to shower (wash my hair = essential). So I called the gas company who came out late morning to tell me the pilot light had gone out on the gas hot water system and showed me how to relight it. Took all of 30 seconds. I felt so foolish. At least I learnt how to relight the pilot light, sometime I did a hundred times over the next few years.

  61. Not Today Satan*

    Did anyone else find yesterday’s discussion on delegating work while you’re on vacation to be distressing? Several people basically said that whether or not they go on vacation, they’re expected to perform the same amount. (E.g., do extra work beforehand and/or work while on vacation.) America has such an unhealthy attitude towards vacation–which should be just that, vacation, and not an extra source of stress. If an employer doesn’t have have the capability to function when a worker is out of the office, that’s on the employer, not the worker.

    1. oldfashionedlovesong*

      Yes, that was tough to read! I prefer to tie up every loose end possible, delegate whatever’s left, and then truly and utterly disappear for those few days. My employer gave me a company cell phone when I first started, but two weeks later took it back since I am a desk employee, and I was never so happy to let go of a gadget, because I just knew that phone meant they’d believe I was available anytime.

    2. Anie*

      It’s frustrating! I have 4 more weeks of vacation left to use this year and I’m struggling to take even a single day off. My boss, in the past, would make me do as much as possible the week before a vacation (which would basically end up being 2 weeks worth of work in one week). She’s take care of any daily tasks.

      But now, I don’t have a boss and haven’t for a month and a half. There’s literally no one to do things for me if I’m out. As this is a news publisher, we can’t just…not post news to our website for a week or not come out with our weekly news magazine.

    3. Cranky PM*

      I went on vacation a few years ago to Scandinavia, and was basically not very reachable, due to the nature of the vacation activities. The vacation had been approved by my previous manager, and it had all been paid for, so unless the company wanted to refund myself and my husband for our expenses, I was going on the vacation.

      I came back and asked my boss, “How did it go?”
      “I just told everyone we had to wait until you got back.”

      He was also one of the worst people I ever worked for. Literally I was on a schedule that required late evenings, very early mornings 1x a week, Friday nights, and then Saturday mornings, because we were short staff. He never ever offered to take any of those. I got so sick I was almost hospitalized.

    4. Sammie*

      Yes, but its typical of almost every company I know of. My team-lead was on vacation last week and he was sending emails every.single.night. He’s the type who says–“whatever I do—I hit it hard”….which KILLS me. At Currant Employer LLC, whomever is the biggest martyr, wins!

    5. NDQ*

      I dread vacations or extended sick leave just for this reason. No one else does my work. My boss can try, but that creates too many problems so I don’t encourage it. When I’m out of the office, people leave voicemails or send emails and they get a response of when I’ll be back. Everything waits. I don’t work on vacation, I don’t check mail or return calls. Then when I get back, it’s misery trying to catch up the backlog and get to the current stuff. Reading all the effort the OP when through to leave extensive directors for her boss was painful. She’s a rock star.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I did not get to read that whole thing, but it sounds really depressing.
      I worked for a place where you were held accountable for things that went on while you were away on vacation. When you returned from vacation you could find yourself facing a write up for what happened while you were gone. No one wanted to take vacations.
      The technique used for sick time was a different from this. Sick time came with a smear campaign about how you were not really sick and you are such a faker/slacker and on and on.

      We had a lot of people get really sick. It never occured to TPTB all this sickness might have something to do with what is going on in the workplace.

  62. Down and Out*

    I’m in a not-so-good work environment right now. I’ve been job searching for more than a year and finding myself getting depressed. Not only is my job search frustrating, but I find myself completely unmotivated at work. Every time I get in the right frame of mind to plow ahead with projects, I get yelled at and abused (hence, the job search).

    How do keep myself from being completely unmotivated, both in my search and at the office?

    1. oldfashionedlovesong*

      Ha, I submitted a very similar question right below you :) I will be following the answers you get!

    2. wannabephoenix*

      I can relate, personal and professional set-backs have left me totally isolated from previous co workers and clients. It’s also left me with a disturbing aversion to picking up the phone, calling people or even leaving the house. Not sure where this aversion came from. I am also looking forward to any suggestions on how to get over this or any suggestions on how and where to start networking?

      1. Futurelibrarian*

        >It’s also left me with a disturbing aversion to picking up the phone, calling people or even leaving the house.

        This sounds like something you should see a therapist for, friend! I do that whenever I am going through a difficult time, and have found therapy to be exceedingly useful in helping to push me up and over the hump.

    3. Malissa*

      Drink, a lot. Well maybe not. But I know the situation and the alcohol consumption does go up a bit.
      Honestly though an attitude, well let’s see how crazy it gets today, is helpful. It kinda places you in a mind frame of not being so invested you care a bunch, which makes the abuse more amusing than hurtful.

    4. Steve G*

      Work on communication skills in the sense you need to learn to push back when people start getting abusive/yelling. I left a job 8 years ago for this. I used to be extremely shy but I was so stressed from the unfair pressure that when my boss called me in and started basically yelling because I hadn’t done enough outbound calls (after a week of record in-bound calls that took up all of my time), and I finally got the nerve to say something along the lines of “you need to back that s*** up” without the curse and I never regretted it and wish I’d pushed back sooner! It’s not OK for yelling/abuse/belittling to go on.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      To keep yourself motivated at work, picture yourself on a job interview explaining what you have done at this job. You want to be able to say that you did things, right? If you keep doing different things then you have something to point to in an interview.

      Another idea to hold on to is: This boss is a waste of your time. However your work effort is NOT a waste of your time. You can still learn/develop and grow yourself in small ways that are culmatively significant. If you think of it as “I am working for ME, for my betterment, my enrichment” this may help. You will take this self-taught growth and learning with you when you leave.

      If you are feeling kind of snarky some days you can tell yourself “my next job is going to seem ten times easier because I will be able to work without being under constant fire”. I have seen this one play out, too. I had to keep my mouth shut at the next job when people were complaining because my new boss was no where near as bad as my old boss.

      1. Lost*

        Thanks, am going thru a rough patch at work. This is a good way to push myself to keep working thru the angst and anxiety

  63. oldfashionedlovesong*

    How do you all motivate yourself to work on a job search while you are working full time? I am not happy in my current position, though I do acknowledge how lucky I am to have it. It pays well but that’s literally the only upside: the people are lunatics, the morale is awful, the work as a whole is done in a shoddy fashion so my part of it suffers as well, and I do not like living in this area (I moved here for this job so I have no friends here, plus the weather is pretty much awful year-round).

    We all know the paradox that it’s easier to get a job when you have a job. My problem is when I get home in the evening after a full day of staring at the computer and dealing with impossible people, all I want to do is crash with food and Netflix. I think tonight I’m going to stir my graduate student roots by packing up the laptop and heading to a coffee shop to buckle down. Any other ideas?

    1. LabTech*

      I don’t have very many suggestions, just moral support, as I’m finding myself in the same situation. I’ve resigned myself to not getting enough sleep during the weekdays in order to job search, and frantically writing application materials during lunch to try and get ahead. My approach (in addition to coffee shops), is to have a designated dinner-time where I do absolutely no job searching, and a tea time, where the moment anything caffeinated or chocolatey touches my lips, I have to open my application materials. (I’ve also stopped limiting caffeine in the evenings so I’ll still have the energy to job search.)

      …Not exactly the healthiest approach, so also looking for suggestions.

    2. Bend & Snap*

      It’s really hard. I think setting goals and then rewarding yourself is helpful.

      I ran into the same thing when job hunting, but then my boss would do something shitty and I’d come home and bang out a bunch of applications.

      It’s all in what motivates you, really.

    3. EmilyG*

      I set myself a time to work on it. The field I work in isn’t likely to be one with lots of appropriate job openings or postings that I had to reply to *immediately*, so I made it part of my Sunday routine to sit on the sofa, background-watch some Netflix, and hit a bunch of jobs sites that I bookmarked in a folder so I could “open all in tabs.” Anything promising I’d bookmark in a “Prospects” folder. Sometimes I’d decide after a day or two that a prospect wasn’t really that appropriate after all. But if I did, then I’d be pretty fired up about it and make time to work on the application evenings during the week.

    4. Will*

      This is a little “out there” but it’s easy and you have nothing to lose. I did what is called “affirmations.” You basically come up with a specific positive goal/mantra and then every single night you type it out 20 times. It should be specific (but not so specific such that you feel like a failure if you don’t meet it). A bad affirmation would be “I will find another job.” Too vague and frankly finding a job isn’t the real goal, it’s GETTING another job. Similarly a super specific affirmation like “I will apply to 3 jobs today.” can be self defeating if you don’t wind up meeting that quota.

      My affirmation was “I, , will find and get a better job.” And every night, no matter how I felt, I typed it out 20 times in a Word doc. You must type it out fully. (You can also write it.) Copy and paste defeats the purpose. I suppose you can type it out as many times as you want as long as it’s a pretty big number but most importantly, no matter what happens or how you feel, you STICK TO IT and type it out every day.

      At first I was like, this is stupid as heck, as I was typing. But you know what? It honestly kept me on track. It wasn’t a cure-all, I still had nights of frustration and some nights after I typed out that message 20 times I merely sighed and closed the computer. But the next night I was back to typing out my affirmation and whatever subconscious message it delivered it did the trick.

      1. Will*

        For whatever reason the affirmation text didn’t display properly. The affirmation was “I, (my full name here), will find and get a better job.” I read that it works better if you put your name in.

    5. BRR*

      I’m in a similar situation. First thing I do when I get home is look for new jobs. I do it every day because I find it easier with fewer new positions posted. I have a separate bookmarks folder with organizations and job boards and control+click it to open all the tabs.

  64. CollegeAdmin*

    I just started an exempt position – I’ve only been non-exempt in the past. How do sick time and vacation time work, since hours tend to be more flexible? For example, if I have a doctor’s appointment and need to leave at 2pm (instead of 5pm), do I put in 3 hours of sick time? Or do I just work in the evening? No extra work? I’m so confused.

    1. Natalie*

      Every place sets it up a little differently, IME. I would probably just ask your benefits person

      That said, one thing to remember is that your pay can only be docked in full day increments, so you probably can’t put in 3 hours of sick time if you worked part of the day. As a result of this, I’ve known some places that have only allowed people to take the full day off for something small like a doctor’s appointment, which is ridiculous IMO.

      1. Not Today Satan*

        What do you mean pay can only be docked in full day increments? That doesn’t apply to my exempt job.

        1. Natalie*

          Are you sure? (Link to follow)

          Deductions from pay are permissible when an exempt employee: is absent from work for one or more full days for personal reasons other than sickness or disability; for absences of one or more full days due to sickness or disability if the deduction is made in accordance with a bona fide plan, policy or practice of providing compensation for salary lost due to illness; to offset amounts employees receive as jury or witness fees, or for military pay; for penalties imposed in good faith for infractions of safety rules of major significance; or for unpaid disciplinary suspensions of one or more full days imposed in good faith for workplace conduct rule infractions. Also, an employer is not required to pay the full salary in the initial or terminal week of employment, or for weeks in which an exempt employee takes unpaid leave under the Family and Medical Leave Act.</blockquote

          2. Ask a Manager* Post author

            That means that you can’t dock an exempt employee’s pay in the vast majority of cases unless they do no work in the week. I think you might be reading it as something else?

            But regardless, that’s totally separate from vacation and sick time, which the employer can dock in whatever increments they want.

      2. GigglyPuff*

        Really? We do increments for vacation and sick as exempt employees…but that is as paid. Are you saying if they are unpaid they can only get docked as full days?

        1. Natalie*

          Yes, sorry – I think I was not clear originally. Some workplace policies are structured around that “full day deductions only” law and don’t allow PTO for partial days or don’t allow you to be absent unless it’s a full day. Bizarrely, in my workplace my former boss completely misunderstood what they were telling her and wouldn’t allow her non-exempt people to take PTO in partial increments.

    2. Not Today Satan*

      I would ask your manager. My position is exempt, and in your doctor’s appointment example, I would use sick time. I’d only make up the time if it were about an hour or so. But either way, ask your boss. It really depends on the job.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      I think it depends on your workplace (ask your HR or your manager for nuances). Where I’ve worked as exempt, it’s basically been “If you come in for any part of the day to work, that’s a day worked; if you’re completely absent that day, you’re on vacation or using a sick day.”

      In other words, if I came in on Monday morning from 8 AM to 10 AM and then left work because I wasn’t feeling well, that’s one day worked (not a sick day). If I come in Tuesday 8 AM to 8 PM, I don’t get overtime—that’s also a day worked. If I say “I’m working from home today” and my boss approves it, that’s not a sick day or a vacation day. If I say “I’m taking the day off to take care of some errands and go to a doctor’s appointment, that’s a vacation day.

      Does that make sense?

    4. Ad Astra*

      Most of this will depend on how your office does things, so I would definitely ask your manager or HR.

      At my office, you can only take sick or vacation time in half- or full-day increments. So if I had a 2 p.m. appointment, I could:
      1. Work through my normal lunch and take a 2 p.m. “lunch” to go to the doctor
      2. Leave at noon and take half the day off, using sick time
      3. Talk to my boss about it and see if he’d be ok with me staying late to make up the hours (In my office, I wouldn’t do this without running it past him. YMMV)

    5. Lunar*

      It really does depend on where you work. My office is very small and pretty casual so we mostly operate on the assumption that it all evens out in the end. So if I have a dentist appointment and am out for a few hours I don’t really worry because of all of the times that I have stayed late or will stay late to get things done. My coworkers do this as well. In terms of hours worked, it definitely works out that I work more than 40 hours per week even if I take a long lunch every so often for an appointment.
      I know other exempt employees (many who work for larger organizations) who would be required to take sick or vacation time for a few hours for a doctors appointment or something like that.
      If you’re not sure, then I would guess that there isn’t a strict policy so I would try and see what other people do. I think a lot of it has to do with perception. I’ve been here almost a year and I think I have a reputation for being conscientious and hard working so I don’t worry about having to step out for something (the fact that the people I work with do this too also helps). When I first started working here, I made sure to say that I would be in early because I’d have to leave early (and then actually do it of course).

    6. The IT Manager*

      It varies by company policy. In my experience, you take doctor’s appointments as sick leave (in increments of 15 minutes) so I’d put in sick leave for that. I see the flex time more as I was running late/stayed late to make it up or didn’t bother staying late because you know you’ve mentally banked extra hours. Worked late I so took an equivalent time off on Friday.

      I might use the flexibility to cover and hour at the start of end of the day, but for missing 3 hours of work I wouldn’t try to make it up that night unless I was saving my sick leave or had a task that could not wait.

    7. Chris*

      I’d check to see if there is a policy and also ask about company norms. For us, we can only take sick days in full day increments. If I left at 2pm to go to a doctor’s appt, it wouldn’t matter. I’d put my hours worked down and I’d just have done less hours of work that week. However, at my org most people work more than hours than expected pretty regularly, so it all comes out in the wash. We are trusted to get our work done and manage our schedules, other companies have more structure.

  65. Whippers*

    OK, so today my manager made some comments which really offended me and I don’t know whether I should address them with her or whether I would just be seen as ultra sensitive in doing so.
    To give a bit of background about why I was so upset; I have suffered from severe anxiety and depression in the past, a good bit before I started this job. I had to complete a medical questionnaire when I started and informed the company about this; i’m not sure whether my manager has ever read this questionnaire.

    My manager has a very insensitive, loud and sarcastic manner and often says fairly insensitive things as a “joke”. On this occasion I told a story about my childhood and she said very sarcastically “Oh you must have had a very traumatic childhood”. I was kinda taken aback but didn’t pay much attention. Then two of my coworkers were arranging to go somewhere and she said “Oh don’t take Sarah (me) with you anyway, she’ll just bring the mood down”.

    So I know this isn’t horrendous offensive or anything but to someone who has suffered from anxiety and depression in the past and still lives with it, and purposely tries not to be a “downer”, it is quite upsetting. I am not always the life of the party, especially when she’s around as I find her manner off-putting, but I really think that comment was inaccurate, rude and insensitive. Also, not even funny.

    Do you think if I bring this up with her I risk being seen as too sensitive and that I am allowing my mental health to affect my job? It’s not the first time she has made insensitive comments about staff in front of other people so I don’t like to think that she is “getting away with it” just because people don’t want to be seen as sensitive.

        1. Amber Rose*

          Well, what do you hope to gain? Aside from a lot of eye rolling and assurances that you’re taking it too personally, which is the likely outcome.

          2. LBK*

            I’d hope to gain maybe a modicum of sensitivity from the manager – the manager! – about personal issues. And even if she didn’t somehow know the specifics of how hurtful the childhood comment would be, to say within earshot “Don’t invite one of my employees to lunch because I have a personal dislike for their attitude” is wildly, wildly inappropriate.

            Unless your point is that this manager sounds like a b-hole and is unlikely to make any changes no matter what you say, in which case I’d agree.

            1. Amber Rose*

              The second bit for sure. People who make jerk comments tend to be jerks. Telling people to stop being a jerk, even in polite terms, frequently accomplishes nothing. Sad but true.

        2. Christy*

          I don’t even know what you would hope to gain. Just knowing that you said something? I can’t imagine anything good coming from it.

          1. Whippers*

            Well, it’s just that she has quite a track record of making insensitive/offensive comments to staff members. The one she made to me isn’t the worst by a long shot. So when is it appropriate to call a manager out on something they’ve said?

            1. Christy*

              Honestly, if you have an unreasonable manager, when you have another position lined up and you can leave the job. Otherwise, I think it’s basically always risky if your manager is unreasonable.

            2. AnotherFed*

              Appropriate is not the same as effective. It would be appropriate for you to politely, discretely mention to your manager that you found her comments hurtful and inappropriate instead of funny and request she not continue. It is unlikely to be effective, because if she says worse to others and they have no objections, you will seem like a complainer, and you will open yourself up to reprisal or simple exclusion from the boss.

              1. Whippers*

                I think you have put very succinctly what I already knew. It just annoys me so much that she continues to get away with her bullish, obnoxious behaviour and then calls other people out on the most minor things. In fact it wouldn’t surprise me if she calls me out on my reaction to her “joke” in my next 1:1 with her (i just gave no response when she was clearly expecting me to laugh ingratiatingly).

            3. catsAreCool*

              This manager sounds like someone who wouldn’t be safe to call out. Her supervisors could do it, but I wouldn’t advise you to. Maybe when she says something, you could say something like “Aww, that’s not fair.” and sound like you’re taking it humorously, but even that could be risky.

              If the manager is safe to talk to, I’d suggest talking to the manager in private and explaining how something might be seen by others.

        3. Not So NewReader*

          She’s not teachable. She will not learn from what you are saying.

          It seems to me that she is actually a big downer, interesting that she should accuse you of that. Some people lack empathy, she’s one of those people. Protect yourself by not talking about your personal life.
          I’m sorry you have to deal with this.

    2. Bend & Snap*

      I think you need a new boss. She sounds mean. It’s really hard, if not impossible, to effectively to get people who act like that to change their behavior, especially when they’re in a position of power.

    3. Erin*

      Ugh. No, I don’t think you should bring it up after the fact for the reason you mentioned of looking too insensitive, which will only give her more fuel.

      I do think you should be more aggressive about responding in the moment, though. It might be hard to come up with an adequate response beforehand since the insults/remarks will change, but give it some thought if there are any go-to phrases you could use. “I’d appreciate it if you didn’t…” “I know you’re just joking, but please don’t…” “I know what you’re saying but I think it comes off as…” Since comments are made to other people as well maybe you’ll get lucky and someone else will chime in.

      Personal anecdote: People used to tell me all the time that I look depressed. So I’ve made more of an effort over the years to look happier as my default face. Recently, I had a coworker walk by my desk and say something like, “You’re always smiling! Stop smiling!” In other words, you just can’t win sometimes.

      1. Whippers*

        Yeah, that probably would be the best way to deal with it. It’s just hard when it comes out of nowhere and you’re so taken aback in that moment. My immediate reaction was “Is that a joke? It doesn’t sound like a joke. Should I be offended by that? Maybe I’m being too sensitive. How should I arrange my face?”

    4. BRR*

      Your manager is a jerk and isn’t going to change. Unless you want to raise a big stink about it with your manager’s manager or HR I think your best best is to adopt a dog training approach. Let him know it’s not appropriate. Shut it down and say it matter of factly, try not to seem upset. The same tone you should use is if she suggested something obviously wrong like putting your hand on a hot stove.

  66. AT*

    Quirky query about quirks, that I’m seeking a general opinion on, if anyone’s got a moment and an opinion!

    I’m prepping my CV for applications for new jobs, and one of the skills that I didn’t include last time was that I am proficient in Esperanto. So my query is this: does that belong on a CV?

    The Esperanto community, of course, say that it does, because:
    – it demonstrates willingness and initiative to further my learning and pick up new skills.
    – being a second language, it’s good for brain flexibility, communication and the ability to pick up more languages in the future.

    My family have told me that I should on no account put it on my CV or even mention it at all in a workplace, citing various reasons including:
    – barely anyone speaks Esperanto so it’s useless.
    – it gives the impression that I waste my time when I should be learning skills directly useful to my job (a medical field).
    – people will think I’m a hippie.
    – Esperanto is political. Yes, it’s world peace; but world peace is still politics. And politics doesn’t belong on a CV.

    And a friend has suggested that I leave it off the “skills” part of the CV, but include it in a brief bit about personal interests at the end, or mention it if asked about hobbies/interests outside work during an interview.

    I can kind of see where all of the points are coming from, but none of the points have come from hiring managers or anyone in my field of work, so I’m wondering if anyone here has any particular perspectives or thoughts. Have you hired or fired an Esperantist before, or would you do so taking it into consideration at all? Can hobbies really make someone look disreputable that easily in your eyes? Do you have a couple of Esperantist office-workers who gossip away over the top of their cubicle walls with the smug knowledge that no-one else can understand them (not knowing that the Klingon speaker across the room is listening to every word and blogging transcriptions of their boasted Christmas party shenanigans)?

    Am I massively overthinking it?

    1. Katie the Fed*

      I wouldn’t include it. I don’t think most people know enough about to have strong opinions, but it might confuse and distract. Now, if it were a language that’s actually spoken and might be useful, like Spanish, I’d include that.

      It is pretty cool though!

      1. Steve G*

        I tend to disagree if it is an entry level job, if it is higher level, you probably have enough other stuff to talk about.

        I am fluent in Czech, and know basic Hungarian and Polish (only the latter is actually useful in NY), and those are pretty useless languages to have even here in NYC because even though we have people from those countries here, you still have to speak English so other people can chime in. When I was looking for lower level jobs, languages kept coming up and everyone said some variation of “you must be smart because you know languages,” which is why I would tend to say to keep it.

        1. Katie the Fed*

          Oh no – I would love to see Czech, Hungarian and Polish. Those are actual used languages. I don’t mean useful in terms of applicability to the job. I mean useful in “people actually speak them.” I would be very interested in Czech.

    2. LBK*

      I’m leaning towards you overthinking it. Maybe I’m in the wrong generation to answer this but I don’t really have any associations (political or otherwise) with Esperanto other than vaguely knowing what it is. I don’t know if it will really be helpful in any way to include it, but “fluent in Esperanto” is a short enough phrase that I wouldn’t consider it a waste of resume real estate either unless you’re truly cramped as it is.

      1. Steve G*

        I’m curious why you say the “wrong generation.” Esperanto was a thing not too long ago when boomers, genx, and (older) millenials were all in the workplace, so I’m not seeing the generational slant.

        1. S*

          As a recent grad (younger millenial), I will say that I have no idea what Esperanto is. No clue.

          1. LBK*

            I think I’ve probably only heard of it as a Jeopardy clue or something. Never in a serious or formal learning context.

          2. Steve G*

            Oh…it was supposed to be the international language of business to replace English in that capacity. I thought it was a new-millennium thing but just looked in up and it looks much older….

        2. Steve G*

          You would?! It’s unfortunate that I NEVER hear it even here in NY. Just yesterday on the subway there were 2 separate groups speaking Hungarian around me. But Czech? I can’t remember the last time I heard it in NYC

          1. Katie the Fed*

            I would think it’s interesting :). But I love travel and languages. I would think Esperanto was…odd. Not bad, just different. I don’t know that it would hurt though.

        3. LBK*

          This is purely based on AT associating it with hippies, which have not really been a thing during my lifetime. Although I haven’t heard any kind of semi-recent buzz about it, hippie-related or not.

          1. Steve G*

            oh….I always associate 2000-eqsue computer nerd thinking “I’m gonna learn this and lead the future!”

    3. AdAgencyChick*

      I’d agree with the friend who says it’s not for the skills section, but rather for the hobbies/interests one.

    4. The IT Manager*

      Since no one speaks it as their first and only language, it’s not really a marketable skill so leave it off.

      It’s essentially a hobby and hobbies don’t belong on a resume. The justifications that the Esperanto community gives for including it on a resume could apply to a number of other hobbies too, but hobbies don’t belong on a resume.

    5. Student*

      I took four years of Latin. I never put it on a resume. Maybe I would if I thought it was applicable. It comes up occasionally in conversation for mottoes or slogans, “spells” in fantasy novels, crossword puzzles, various minor trivia.

    6. Rehabilitating Mr Wiggles*

      Speaking only for myself, if I saw that on a resume it would definitely pique my interest. It wouldn’t guarantee you a job. But if your resume was one of five that all seemed about the same, yours would probably be at the top of my list to interview.

      Why? Well – I once was handed a resume for someone who had spent the summer of their sophomore year off to study to be a Realtor, and they then took and passed the test and were a licensed Realtor in their state. This person was applying for a software engineering job. I hired him, and he’s worked out great.

      Just me, but I tend to like people “who are bigger than their job” (as a friend of mine once put it). One thing, though: you’d better be ready to talk to me about your knowledge of Esperanto. Someone who put that down on their skills as a feeble joke (“it was just a funny sounding language that nobody speaks, ha ha!”) would not impress me at all. Although you get a big bonus if you can tell me why I might want to learn Esperanto before I die.

      (FYI: I’m a hiring manager for a Fortune 50 company in the I/T biz)

    7. Startingly Anon*

      so I have to ask…did you learn it because of The Stainless Steel Rat? (my brother and I started to learn it because of those books :) )

    8. Observer*

      If you are doing hobbies, then you could put it there. But, I would NOT put it in skills. It really is not a job related skill, and acting as though it is would make you look clueless. Even knowing multiple languages that are spoken by a significant number of people is often not a very useful work skill. Something that no one speaks really doesn’t give you anything. I’d as soon put classical Latin in the skills section (outside of the very few jobs where classical latin is actually relevant, of course.)

  67. TheExchequer*

    It’s been kind of a weird week. My mom got offered a job which is paying better than her previous one. (She accepted it, but said she is keeping her options opened. I attempted to explain how damaging that can be, only to be ignored. So I’m trying to keep out of my parent’s job search from now on. Ha).

    I had a third round interview at the end of last week which I haven’t heard back from. (Trying very hard not to gnaw my fingernails past the quick here).

    And my bosses are still crazier than pants. On the first, when I was supposed to get paid, my coworker was sent home because there was nothing to do, yet my boss was still too overwhelmed to get me paid on time. Yet, there, on his desk, was an envelope with my coworker’s name on it. Uh-huh. Too overwhelmed. Right. The next day I got yet another lecture on “It’s no big deal if other people make mistakes, but you must be perfect. This week, despite the fact I do almost the work of two full time people as it is, while my coworker has been out, my bosses thought it was a great idea to give me yet more work to do!

    I’ve been looking on Craigslist, Indeed, and I’ve even used Facebook for this job search, but I thought I’d ask my peers here at AAM: What are the best sources of job ads that you’ve seen lately?

    1. TheExchequer*

      Also, on weird interview questions, I was asked what my spirit animal is and what I’d do in a zombie apocalypse. No, I was not interviewing for a zombie apocalypse spirit guide.

    2. Cruciatus*

      I use the same ones you do, though I don’t put a lot of stock into my local Craigslist because whenever something looks interesting, I click it to find out that it’s being advertised from who knows where and has a generic photo with it and ends up looking spammy to me. There are probably gems in there but I don’t want to have to seek them out. Or the jobs are “models wanted.” Which, well, I’m OK, but no.

      I don’t know that I have a “best source”, but I usually go straight to the source. I’m mostly looking for administrative-ish jobs at local colleges/universities so I go directly to their employment pages. I do have non-academic jobs in there from reputable businesses too just in case “the perfect thing” pops up. In fact, what I do is I have a job search folder in my web browser and every day when I get home from work I “open all tabs” and it takes me to all the job sites I’ve saved there. I’ve done this nearly every day for years. When I actually get a new job it’ll feel weird to not come home and do that before dinner.

  68. AnotherFed*

    Over the past few weeks, I’ve discovered that the supposedly experienced mid-level person assigned to help me actually has no experience at this job (think teapot spout designer reassigned to teapot QA). I don’t think this person misrepresented their experience to get this assignment, but they didn’t tell me they had no experience with the tasks I was giving them or ask for help beyond a few specific questions, so most of the work from the last 3 weeks is useless.

    Now that I’ve figured out he’s basically brand new to this and I have to give him entry-level tasks and training, I can at least get some useful work. But how do I get him to admit when he needs help and ask useful questions? I’m really concerned that he’ll just sit on things if he doesn’t understand what to do, and I can’t tell what he isn’t understanding in examples and discussions unless he speaks up. Any thoughts or suggestions?

    1. Steve G*

      Maybe have a direct talk to gauge his skill level, but use nice language that will facilitate his admitting he doesn’t know what he is doing. So not “I am disappointed you misrepresented your skill level” but:

      “I noticed you struggle with our particular type of xyz QA work, can you let me know what areas you aren’t sure how to handle, or which ones you are confident you can handle now?” (with the emphasis on your way and company, pretending they are different than the norm, even if they aren’t?).

      Or “I have time slated for a xyz company QA methodology training for you if you want it this Monday, what topics do you want training on,” maybe pretend everyone gets that sort of training in the beginning.

      Or conversely, just tell him your boss told you to start training people in the basic stuff when they are new and say “I know it is a drag because you’ve already done this before but it is company policy.” Then train in the basics from step 1-100.

      Good luck, I personally wouldn’t be able to handle this!

      1. AnotherFed*

        I think I’ve missed the opportunity for most of that with this guy, but these are all really good ideas to implement the next time I get ‘help’ so I’m not blindsided when they have different skills and experience as expected. Thanks!

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Did you ask him point blank if he had any experience? A good follow up question would be to ask for details, where, when, how long.

      Rather than asking him anything now, why not just say that it is really important if he has a question he ask you rather than letting things just sit. Tell him stuff cannot sit. One technique I have seen used is to saying something to the effect of, “I want to see you ask more questions.” In my own setting, I added, “It does not have to be me, you can ask your coworkers if you prefer.” If you do this though, you have to make sure the coworkers know that answering questions is expected.

      He maybe worried that he will lose his job if he admits he has no experience. If it is okay with you that he has no experience, let him know somehow. This could be as simple as telling a story of someone who used to work with you and had no experience but you coached them through it. Sometimes a good story opens doors.

    2. Rehabilitating Mr Wiggles*

      Can you be more specific?

      If you’re talking about something prosaic like “my boss does trust his employees”, then no, probably not.

      If you’re talking about a business that has consciously decided to run itself in some kind of Kafka-esque manner where all employees are equally untrusted and there are systems in place to verify all business activities – that could be interesting, at least for awhile.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      No. It’s not a healthy environment and over time it will bring you down…. VERY down.

  70. Kai*

    Well, my boss just referred to a woman featured on the cover of a professional newsletter as a “bimbette,” so…that’s cool.

  71. JAL*

    I’m not asking for any advice but I have an internal interview with our HR department at 2:00 this afternoon. I’m really hoping I get this position because it’s more where I want to be at my career. Please send your good vibes this way.

      1. JAL*

        Thank you :) I felt like it went well, but you never know with these situations. It sounded like they wanted to hire someone internally opposed to externally since they understand the company better. I

        ‘m hoping I get it though, because my hours in my current position keep getting cut due to a lack of work. I threw out my back over 4th of July weekend and I had to take off Monday to take care of that, so I ended up getting 17 hours this week when I’m full time. When I was walking out of my interview I saw the other person who works with me on my team and she told me that she was getting sent home due to lack of work.

  72. De Minimis*

    Had an oddball government interview this week, for a county position.
    Panel interview of two interviewers, and they did the thing again where they don’t let them see the resume or know anything about the candidate beforehand. I had to sign a paper at the beginning saying I did not know either panelist or have any connection with them. I attempted to refer to my notes during the interview and they said I couldn’t do that [though they apologized for forgetting to tell me before we started.]

    They recorded the interview, which was a first, though they also wrote down my answers. I asked at the beginning if I could ask questions and they said that neither of them would be able to answer since neither of them work in the department where the job will be lcoated.

    Guess it’s an anti-nepotiam/anti-cronyism policy gone too far…I think this is more of a first-round screening type interview, and there might be another interview with a hiring manager later on. Who knows….it seemed to go okay.
    The job itself wouldn’t be bad.

    Out of the many, many government interviews I’ve had, I think this is only the second time I’ve had an experience like this.

    Also got a call yesterday from a recruiter, but that too was odd because he was lcoated on the other side of the country. It’s a firm I’ve never dealt with before but apparently they only pay their recruiters commssion so the recruiters are extra-aggressive in trying to place candidates. The job probably is too advanced for me but guess we’ll see what happens. It’s at a non-profit that is located in my local commuting area.

    Oh, and I found out this week I got unemployment. I was really happy to hear that. My former employer could appeal but I would guess they would lose, since I filed based on the whole “trailing spouse” thing and already sent a copy of our marriage license and my wife’s offer letter. But I’m still hoping to find a job before the end of summer.

    2. De Minimis*

      …and I just got a call from the university where I interviewed last week, they want to bring me in to interview with the hiring manager [she was out sick the day of my initial interview] next week!

      As of right now, that would be my preferred job out of all of the stuff I’ve gone for recently.

  73. AnonymousaurusRex*

    My company is on the verge of financial collapse. My team has shrunk from 12 people to 4 people (including my manager, who is out on maternity leave, so really 3 people for now) through attrition and non-renewal of contracts in the last 6 months. The company has shrunk from just about 50 people to We are all worried that we will have to shut down before we can win another contract. I’ve been working overtime to write proposals and try to get us more business (not a normal part of my job). My team is paid the least in the company and is definitely paid under market rate. Obviously we are all kind of looking for jobs, but I really like my job and would prefer to stay here if we stay afloat.

    Question is, if we win a contract that would sustain us for a while (the next year or so) would it be appropriate to ask for a raise for me and the remaining members of my team? How do I broach this?

    1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      Eh, maybe.

      From a management perspective, if they win the contract, they need to retain their staff in order to fulfill it. If I were in that spot, I’d think about offering a retention bonus, either after a period of time or the completion of the contract.

      There may not be any money at all though. If the company is hanging on hoping for one more contract, they could be so far in the red that they can’t make it out by paying more money.

      A lot probably depends on the terms of the contract won. Does it come with up front money, how much up front money does it come with, etc. If a lot of the money is back loaded at end of contract, that’s not going to help.

    2. Rehabilitating Mr Wiggles*

      I think it’s definitely worth asking about it. As Wakeen pointed out, if they win the contract, they need people to work on it, and it sounds like those people are already starting to pack their bags.

      And – what’s the worst that can happen? If they fire you, it’s almost like they’re doing you a favor.

  74. Katherine*

    This is partly work-related, partly personal. I just wanted to share that I’m so happy that I finally gave notice at my abusive, stressful job! In less than a month I will be home with my child full time :). My anxiety has already decreased significantly.

  75. HBIC*

    How do people go about finding freelance jobs in their field? I’m specifically in operations/finance/hr but am interested in general as well.

  76. wannabephoenix*

    Are employment agencies the same as recruiters? How do I contact a recruiter (either on LinkedIn or on Indeed.com or other job search sites) to have them help me get a job?

    1. Cranky PM*

      Yes, they are the same. Search on “XX recruiter” (where XX is the name of your industry or job title) and see who comes up. Most of them have websites with job listings, and many of them say “If you don’t see anything here, send us your resume anyway.” That’s how you get connected to these folks. But you can’t hire them to find you a job, and anyone who wants you to pay them to find you a job is ripping you off.

  77. JMegan*

    Random observation: I have a client who starts every email to me with my full name. Even if we’re having an extended conversation over email, every single one of her messages starts with “Dear Megan Lastname”. I have met her in person, introduced myself with my first name only, and used her first name only, both in person and in email. And yet, every time she addresses me, she uses my full name.

    So our conversations go like this:

    Her: Dear Megan Lastname, my name is April Ludgate, and we met at the teapot factory. I was wondering if it would be possible to…

    Me: Hi April, sure, that’s no problem. Cheers, Megan

    Her: Dear Megan Lastname, I have a followup question…

    She’s quite young – young enough that I’m not sure she has ever worked in an office before, so I wonder if she thinks this is the way office communications work. Or if she thinks she has to be this formal since I’m older than she is. I’m not sure. There’s nothing really wrong with it, it’s just kind of…odd, that’s all!

    1. Kelly L.*

      Are there email programs that would autocomplete this? I’ve had that happen in other software once in a while.

    2. Bend & Snap*

      Do you have a first name for a last name? I used to, and it wasn’t unusual for people to think that “Jessica James” was a dual first name.

      Otherwise that’s bizarre.

      1. Ten*

        My boss has this problem with his title. So he’s “Dr. Bob James or Dr. James or Dr. Bob so we’ll get calls and emails asking for just “James.”

    3. louise*

      My husband once had a much younger co-worker who never seemed to figure out email. She was in college at the time. He forwarded me one of the emails because I didn’t believe it could be this bad…first of all, she had a name that always made me giggle because the first and last name sounded the same but were spelled differently and she began EVERY email with, “Hello, this is Kristy Christie.” and then her request or question.

      1. Heather*

        But isn’t the whole name actually on the email itself? As in sent from Walter White?

        1. JMegan*

          It is! (And for Kelly L. above, she’s using Yahoo mail.) My last name is unusual enough that she has probably never come across it before, so maybe she’s hedging her bets about whether it’s part of my first name or not.

          It’s amusing, more than anything else. Mostly I just wonder if she thinks I’m way more important than I actually am!

          1. Sadsack*

            It’s the “dear” that is especially strange to use in every single email exchange. You may be correct that this is her understanding of business correspondence, even in email.

    5. Nashira*

      Having been this person, it’s likely she doesn’t know yet how to pick up on signals for appropriate formality levels, so she’s defaulting at the highest one. I have no real suggestions, though, since I still wrestle with remembering that it’s okay to use someone else’s first name, especially if they’ve called me by mine.

    7. The IT Manager*

      But still if you’re going for the ultra formal/professional it would be Ms Lastname not Megan Lastname. So maybe she is confused and thinks it’s all your first name.

      1. Charlotte Collins*

        Maybe she’s related to T’ealc.

        My mom used to work with international clients, and sometimes she’d come across this. Also, in SE Asia it was common to be referred to as Miss Firstname or Mr. Firstname. (There was no Mrs. Firstname.)

  78. TK*

    Any advice from university people on “best practices” for being on a hiring committee? Like a number of people here, I work at a university library, and I’m serving on a hiring committee for the first time since coming last fall. I find it hard to apply the advice about hiring practices/interviewing found here when I’m not going to supervise the person being hired and in this case, our daily work won’t really regularly intersect. Plus dealing with all the structure, like assigning people a numerical score based on their application materials to decide how to interview, and using the same set of interview questions for everyone (I’m unsure to the extent which followups are allowed/encouraged here, but I don’t recall them much in my own interview).

    Hiring for this position is especially tricky because due to a lot of staffing changes and changes in duties going on right now, there currently is basically no supervisor for this position, and it’s unclear how exactly the role of the potential supervisor will be configured when that position is filled. But the interim person filling this role really needs to focus more on her normal duties, so the decision was made to go ahead and hire. I know this doesn’t really make sense– it’s all a small part of larger cultural issues at my institution. Any thoughts?

  79. Ali*

    I had a little bit of a crazy day at work that sent me running scared a little. We got busy near the end of my shift on Wednesday and had a couple of upset customers, to the point where no one could step in to help me solve situations I didn’t yet know how to handle. And oh yeah…the pharmacist who was working with me (and who I tend to ask for help if techs aren’t available or can’t handle something) started crying and having a meltdown when the stress got to her. I’m sensitive too, but it was a bit unsettling to see the person who I was counting on burst into tears to the point where she couldn’t help me and struggled to deal with the angry customer. The store manager assured me at the end of the night that the pharmacist’s tears are not a common occurrence and he doesn’t want me to think every day is like this. But I feel a little worried nonetheless. Is it unreasonable for me to think that way? I’m willing to overlook it since the manager says it’s not an ongoing issue, but it does raise my eyebrows about the environment and how to deal with angry members of the public. At least it’s worth nothing that 98% of my customers have been perfectly fine.

    In other news, I have an interview set up for Monday at a place I used to work six years ago. The job didn’t go well for me at the time, but since then, the job description has been altered and there’s been complete management turnover, along with some of the staff I worked with also being gone. That made me decide to give it another go. I’m also waiting for a nonprofit to get back to me about a phone screen for next week. I had a lull for about three weeks of no interviews, so it’ll be nice to get in the game again.

    1. Another HRPro*

      You never know why someone breaks down crying. Yes, it was stressful, but that could have been the straw on the camels back. She might be dealing with something else as well. Don’t read too much into a one time situation.

  80. Oswin*

    I just wanted to drop in and say thank you to AAM. I read through a lot of your advice for resumes and interviewing, and was just offered a position that gets me away from a job that has become something that makes me miserable a lot of the time. The new position doesn’t really pay much more, but the hours and working conditions are going to be so much better.

    So, thank you to Alison and everyone here for all the great advice!

  81. Nobody Here By That Name*

    I want to say thank you to everyone here who, in earlier threads about wearing dresses at work, mentioned Skimmies. I’ve been trying them these past couple of weeks and I am in LOVE. I wouldn’t have known about them if not for folks here, so many thanks. =)

  82. Anonymous Educator*

    Just wanted to say my spouse has been looking for a job for eight months and finally locked one in. It’s been a bit stressful, but there is a light at the end of the tunnel!

  83. Interndominus Rex*

    I’m halfway through my pre-senior year internship and am absolutely loving it. I’ve received good feedback so far and believe the company is a good fit. I would love to continue working for my company after graduation (they are selective with intern hiring and do give offers at the end of the summer if it’s a good match and they have positions).

    I’d love some advice from those with experience hiring or working with interns.

    I’m fairly flexible on location and am willing to stay in the current city or move nationwide according to need. However, I do have a dream city (that has a large company office). How should I express my interest for an offer in that city? Before/after I receive an offer? How do I say it if I do it before I’m offered anything?

    And secondly, if I get an offer that I’m happy about, I fully plan on going through campus recruiting to scope out other offers and potentially get negotiating leverage. I know this is a fairly standard practice but it feels kind of…manipulative to push to get a specific location and then respond with a “we’ll see”. Does this have weight or am I overthinking it?

    1. AnotherFed*

      You probably already know this, but be careful ‘shopping’ for offers. When you push for an offer as an intern, it is often taken more like an internal candidate applying for a position – the expectation is that you plan to take it, or failing that that you provide your response according to the stated timeline so that they can lock in other top candidates. I’ve seen a couple of college seniors accept offers (sometimes even with language like ‘tentatively accept’), and then back out of them a few months later – that’s definitely going to hurt their reputation with us, and if they’re going for other positions with the same type of background check, it comes up to their new employers because they started the process as our employee.

      1. Interndominus Rex*

        That’s totally understandable. Interesting to note how pushing for an offer is more like an internal candidate, I’ll definitely keep that in mind. I don’t plan to push as much as to make my interest known and bring up the city I’m in, but I’m trying to gauge how I can do this in a manner that doesn’t seem pushy or like an acceptance but would just re-locate the offer I would receive if they were interested in me/extending an offer anyway at the end of the summer.

        Maybe the process is different for the intern candidates you have, but for my classmates who I’ve seen going through this, a large number have offers with some sort of far out acceptance date (receive offer in August, accept/decline by December). I definitely would not accept an offer(tentatively or not) at my current company while interviewing at other companies.

        Does that clarify things? Would you recommend not bringing up location until after (if) I get an offer, if I want to go through recruiting?

        1. AnotherFed*

          If you otherwise like this company, but really want to be in Other City, I’d talk to your current manager and see what options they think are on the table. They probably have more info about the situation, and can tell you if they think it’s feasible. I’d make sure to emphasize that you like the company and enjoy the work (assuming it’s similar to the work in Other City) and carefully leave options open if Other City isn’t possible for whatever reason.

    2. Snargulfuss*

      Don’t go through the campus recruiting process solely for the purpose of gaining leverage on an offer. That’s a waste of everyone’s time and it’s not going to do you any favors with your current company. If you want to negotiate salary and benefits you can do that by doing researching market rates for your type of position and articulating well your value added.

      If you truly want to see what your options are, you can certainly do that, but you’d need to be forthcoming with your current company (assuming they give you an offer). Also, don’t bet on having all of your offers come in at once – that would be nice, but that’s generally not the way a job search works (except for in college recruiting in a few specific fields where employers are required to give students a set amount of time to respond to an offer).

      1. fposte*

        Seconding that. It’s also not likely to work; you’re not going to get from application to offer stage elsewhere between the time you get an offer and the time you need to officially accept or decline, and anything other than a bona fide offer elsewhere doesn’t count as competition.

        That doesn’t mean you can’t negotiate; it’s perfectly fine to say “It looks like other companies are offering $X+5k for this kind of position; is it possible to meet that number?” But a Potemkin offer is just going to get you grief.

      2. Interndominus Rex*

        That’s a good point about wasting time. Definitely not my intention to use it solely for negotiation. I guess really, I just want to know more of my options and opportunities. I would be primarily participating in on-campus recruiting at my school which does very much have a tight timeline (career fair early sept, on campus interviews between then and mid-october, in-office rounds late october/early november, offers for competitive candidates out by mid-november, for the most part).

        Maybe it’s more of a self-imposed weird feeling, but I cannot name many – if any – high performing classmates that I know from school who have accepted their offer in August and not gone through recruiting, even if maybe 50+% end up accepting their internship offer.

    3. The IT Manager*

      And secondly, if I get an offer that I’m happy about, I fully plan on going through campus recruiting to scope out other offers and potentially get negotiating leverage.

      I don’t understand how you would work this. Tentatively accept the offer and then go looking for a better one? Once you accept the offer, you’ve made an agreement to work for them. For playing them against each for negotiating purposes, you’d need to get the job offers at the same time which doesn’t sound like what will happen for you.

      1. Interndominus Rex*

        It’s pretty common to have open offers from major companies after internships. I’m currently at an accounting firm and I know people with open offers at several firms.

        I guess I am answering my own questions here. It seems like this sort of recruiting style is accepted/practiced at colleges near me and I think I’m just confusing everyone here! I’ll reach out to some professors who have a lot of knowledge about the recruiting style here and get their advice about what they’ve seen and what they think is appropriate.

        I appreciate all of your help and will definitely not be tentatively accepting offers/interviewing just for leverage/etc – good reminders!

  84. cuppa*

    Anyone have any recommendations for carry on luggage for business trips? I love my Rick Steves convertible backpack, but it’s really not right for business.

    1. oldfashionedlovesong*

      I have a soft-sided Samsonite spinner (I think 20-22 inches? So the largest carry-on size) that is absolutely brilliant. It still looks new and sleek after gallivanting all over the world with me for the last five years. The spinner thing (four wheels instead of two) means I can push instead of pull it as I walk, so I don’t get tired. It’s very sturdy, has a zipper expander, and several handy pockets and dividers on the inside and outside. Carry on limits have shrunk enough since I got it that occasionally I’m asked to gate check it on a full flight, but it does fit in the average cabin bin.

    2. S*

      Ross usually sells small Samsung carry-ons for about $60-$80. You may have to bring a measuring tape to ensure that it does fit your preferred airline standards (mine is 21.5 inches, so it fits most commercial carriers except for Spirit), but it’s significantly cheaper at Ross than at other stores, and if you don’t like the Samsung selection, they have lots of other brands.

      If you like purse-style carry-ons, I’ve heard very good things about Lo and Sons’ various bags, but I don’t feel like they’re good for suits or structured professional clothes…

    3. Sparrow*

      You may want to check out the blog Road Warriorette. She travels a lot for work and has several posts on luggage.

    4. EmilyG*

      This may be more than you want to spend but I found a line that was being discontinued by Briggs & Riley a while back and managed to pick up a bunch of pieces from one of their cheaper lines at clearance-sale prices. It was soooo worth it.

    5. fposte*

      I shopped at TJ Maxx and got an IT brand bag that was billed as the lightest carryon for the biggest allowable size. It’s purple with excitingly vibrant circles on it, so nobody *ever* mistakes it for theirs (people with black ones who don’t think to put a ribbon or something on it seem to grab other people’s bags all the time); it’s demonstrably light for its size; it has worn very well safe for a plastic breakage on a corner. On narrow-body planes, it has to go over the side with 3 seats (I think that’s pretty common for big carryons), but otherwise it’s fine.

      It looks like other brands can match it in some versions for lightness, but I’m saying this mostly to 1) remind you to consider weight and 2) note that you can get something pretty decent at discount.

      1. Delyssia*

        PSA: This is true for everyone, but especially if you have a basic black suitcase that looks like about a million others, be sure to include your information on a luggage tag on the bag. Whether you include a business card or hand-written info, just make sure that there’s some way you can be contacted.

        A co-worker had a nightmare situation on a personal trip a while back. He had a basic black suitcase with no luggage tag on it, and someone else inadvertently grabbed his bag when getting off the rental car shuttle to the airport. He realized he had the wrong bag before he got on the plane, but he had no way of tracking his bag down. He turned the wrong bag in, but even though he followed up with the airport, he never got his bag back. The people who took the bag may not even have realized they had the wrong one until they got to their destination, so his bag could’ve ended up anywhere.

        1. ThursdaysGeek*

          Which is why I have a large bright green duct tape letter K on my bag, visible from a half mile. It can be removed after arrival, if I want to look more professional, but during transit, it can’t be mistaken for someone else’s bag.

    6. HR Caligula*

      I picked up some luggage at Costco, it was Samsonite but with the Kirkland name on it.
      The 4 wheeler spinner is so much easier to travel with.

    8. ModernHypatia*

      I love my Tom Bihn bags. (I have the Aeronaut, but there are several others.) Even if you get them in black, they’re a distinctive shape/structure that makes them easy to spot if you check them. They also hold up amazingly well – the bags I’ve used daily still look pretty much new except for a couple of minor things like an interior ink stain, even after a year+ daily use.

  85. wannabephoenix*

    How do I use LinkedIn to get a job and network? How to use LinkedIn References?
    I have positive LinkedIn references from previous clients I haven’t had contact with in years. How do I use them as positive references?

    2. Steve G*

      Linkedin is really cool for job searches – it has as many job listings as monster or any of the other big ones now, and there is a tab for saving job listings, and one for saving jobs you’ve applied to through Linkedin. If you pay $30 per month you can sign up for Linkedin Premium, which gives you more insight about the job – how many other people applied, what their experience level is (given in a pretty graph chart showing how many other applicants are entry level, manager level, etc.), and what schools they typically recruit from. It also sometimes tell you if “you’re in the top 50% of applicants” or not for a job, though that is sometimes misleading, because its based only on a match between the words in your profile and the ad IME , in particular, your job title history, so that’s a little misleading.

      Oh, and you know how sometimes an ad looks new, but the job just keeps getting reposted? You can find that out too with Linkedin Premium. You open up the “see more insights” tab and it will show the # of applicants through time. There is one job with hundreds of applicants and I keep seeing it being reposted, and it looks like a new job, but then you see tens of people have been applying since a few months ago……….

  86. Anon for this*

    What do you do if you’re just legitimately not good at your work? I’m providing temporary coverage and bombing it. Even things that I’m normally great at are falling through the cracks. It feels like I barely have time to figure out what things are before I need to get them done. Without context, even simple decisions take forever, I get behind, and miss stuff. Or I don’t understand the implications of something and make a decision that creates more work.

    The one silver lining is that my boss is extremely direct with feedback so I can course correct quickly, but it’s getting to the point where I’m genuinely not sure if I’m contributing more help or chaos to the department.

    If this were a permanent job, I’d be meeting with my boss to talk about whether this is the right match or if we should be working on a transition plan, but I’m only here for a limited amount of time (about one more month), and honestly I’m not even sure what I need to get on track.

    1. fposte*

      Is it possible this is about your standards rather than your performance? Temp coverage on a position that’s not your own can be a real stretch (especially if you’re doing it in addition to your own work). Are you a regular employee who’ll go back to that job in the org in a month or do you walk away without seeing these people again?

      If you’ve been good at other jobs, it could also just be a mismatch, or a job you’d be fine at if there was regular learning-curve time and it wasn’t short-term coverage. It’s also hard, if you’re using to being good at what you do, to struggle, but that doesn’t mean you’re causing more trouble than helping.

      1. Anon for this*

        It might be both. There is definitely a performance issue, because I’ve had some pretty bad dropped balls and mistakes (not the-company-lost-money mistakes, but the-boss-lost-faith-in-me mistakes), but I know my frustration is compounded by the fact that I did a similar job really well in another division. I’m leaving the company after this assignment, so I do get a clean break, but there are still a few weeks to get through between now. You’re right though, that it’s just a bummer to struggle when I’m used to succeeding.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      It sounds to me like what I call a whirlwind. Everything is just spinning around and around- it does not really matter why this is happening because you still have to fix it.

      Not sure if this will help but something to think about doing is to nail one thing down. Just focus on that one thing until you got it. Then move to second thing, focus on that until you got it. Keep going like this. This means stumbling through other things, but realize that you are going to keep working at it.

      Also consider making yourself a cheat sheet of important things. It’s amazing how not finding a name or forgetting a password can start a domino-like chain of problems. It can be brutal. Get the simplier stuff corralled.

      Make it a goal not to do the same mistake twice. This may mean reading everything a second time. Realize that part of the problem could be that you are feeling a little rattled (a totally human reaction!) so slow down just a tiny bit and maybe you can start to catch stuff before it gets by you.

  87. So, I didn't get the job...*

    I applied for what would have been an (internal) promotion. I found out after weeks of waiting that they chose someone from outside our unit (but still within the large org). She doesn’t seem anymore qualified than I and I’m just a little bummed…

    My supervisor said she’d do a better job of giving me projects to work on so I’d look better on paper. I hope the new person works out. I think I will be reporting to her when she arrives, yay.

    Well, I have the weekend to drown myself in ice cream.

    1. TheExchequer*

      I’m sorry to hear that. I got a no from something I thought was a pretty easy lock this week myself. I think I’m going to make sure I get cookie dough Klondike bars for my sorrows.

        1. So, I didn't get the job...*

          Thanks to you both. I’m going to shamelessly eat whatever I want this weekend. Comfort food indeed!

  88. Awake Beside a Window*

    Does anyone have any thoughts on the best way to either discourage a potential employer from contacting my current employer, or at least provide context for that call?

    I’m concerned because I work for a small, family-run business that historically hasn’t reacted well to people quitting. Words like “disloyal” and “traitor” tend to get tossed around, along with the occasional threat (“Oh, you’re quitting? I guess your mother’s going to have to find a new job too.”). I suspect it may be even worse in my case, because they saw themselves as doing a big favour by hiring me (they hired me because I’m a friend of their daughter’s) and because I’m the only person they have who can do a few of the things they need done.

    I could ask them what kind of reference they’ll give, but I don’t trust them to tell me the truth, so I’d rather keep them out of it altogether if possible. I’m hoping the fact that they *are* my current employer will be enough, but if my interviewer insists, does anyone have any thoughts on the best way to prevent them from sabotaging me?

    (I suspect one suggestion will be ask current co-workers to provide a reference. The problem with that is that I’m the only person doing administration other than the family, so I don’t really have any co-workers. The only time I meet or communicate with most of their staff is when I train them. The person I work the most with is their-daughter-my-friend, but she is my friend, so I don’t think her reference would carry much weight.)

    My plan once I have a new job is to leave this job off my resume, but it’s easier to find a job if one has a job, so…

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      “I work for a small, family-run business and they tend to get very upset and see it as disloyalty when someone leaves, so I can’t let you contact them while I’m still working there.”

  89. Penguin*

    I’m putting together materials to apply for a job at a college library. They ask for the usual cover letter, references, resume, but also transcripts. Do I ask my school to send me a copy of my transcript, then send on to the hiring manager? Or does it need to come direct from my school to the job? And should that be addressed in the cover letter? Any advice would be so appreciated! Thanks in advance!

    1. GigglyPuff*

      Typically, what I’ve seen so far is, you only need to send an unofficial copy when applying, and usually if you get the job, then have the school send an official copy after you are hired. But I would just double check with the HR dept, send them a quick email asking if they want official or unofficial. If it’s unofficial, just scan your copy and upload them with your materials.

    2. Cruciatus*

      Whenever I’ve been asked to I’ve just attached electronic copies (or paper copies, depending on the application type) and kept the originals for myself and brought them to an interview. But if you’re worried you could email the contact person and ask. I didn’t mention them in the cover letter.

    3. ModernHypatia*

      Transcript copies can add up (especially as a lot of academic libraries want to see both undergrad and your master’s degrees.) What I did when job hunting was keep a scanned version on my computer, and then have a couple of sealed envelope copies on hand.

      Generally, if people wanted them early in the process, they were fine with an unofficial version (especially if the initial application is online) and then if you get to the final stages/hire, you provide the sealed print copy. But as long as they’re sealed (usually with the signature of the registrar at the school it came from across the flap or something like that) you can be the one to provide it.

  90. Jennifer*

    I had my interview on Tuesday. It went very well! Now the wait is driving me crazy, though. Especially since once again, my boss is going to be out for days on end so if they call for a reference….hah. They said they might want to have a second round of interviews if there’s a tie, I don’t know what to make of that. (Kinda wish I’d be the clearcut winner, eh?). I wonder what the hell takes so long.

    1. TheExchequer*

      I feel your pain. I’m waiting to hear back on a third round interview I had last week. They told me I’d hear by early this week one way or the other. (Considering their lag between the second and third interviews, I was skeptical of this claim). Want to know when we first started talking? Late May!

  91. voluptuousfire*

    Does anyone know the etiquette of working with more than one agency recruiter? I have one that I have a good relationship with now but the past few gigs they’ve contacted me about have not been worth it for me. I don’t want to sever the relationship because it’s otherwise been good but I’m thinking about reaching out to some other agencies I’ve met with in the past to supplement what I’ve got here. I checked the handbook for anything with a non-compete clause nor do I recall signing anything referring to that.

    Has anyone here worked with (and gotten gigs with) two agency recruiters simultaneously?

  92. wannabephoenix*

    How good or important are recruiters for helping me get a job? Is it a time efficient way to get a new job fast? Do they help get part time jobs or off shift jobs? How would I find them?

  93. HotInCleveland*

    I currently work at a small company. Previously I had worked for a well-known, large organization. The transition in terms of resources, collegiality, and lack of personal space has been taxing, but I have done my best not to complain about it…up until this point.

    We recently moved. I was excited about moving and was hoping for some additional personal space since I had been sitting essentially in a closet in the old office. Also it’s much closer to my home – yay shorter commute!

    In order to accommodate the additional 4 people that were moving in, they decided to convert an old storage room into an office and stick all four of us in it. It has no windows and no air vents of any kind. Additionally, the room is situated off to the side from the main open space. That means the single air conditioner that cools that space does not reach this office. It literally has no air flow. When you walk in from outside and step into the office it feels humid and smells like whatever somebody ate for lunch the prior day. I immediately start sweating. With temperatures in the 90s lately, I really feel that it is unbearable.

    This was immediately raised as an issue. But after 3 weeks, nothing has been done about it. The people affected by the situation took it upon themselves to speak to the building staff to see what could be done. They confirmed that since there were no windows, there are no alternatives.

    I’ve poked around online and basically come to the conclusion that apparently I’m not entitled to air conditioning at work. But is it OK to provide it for some employees, but not others? Ironically, all of those in the non air conditioned space are women and minorities. We’re trying to have a sense of humor about this, but it’s starting to get a little tense. In the beginning it was acceptable to work from home, but now there’s a lot of pushback and an expectation that we need to be there. Whenever we raise it with senior staff, they walk in to the office and say “oh it’s not that bad”. Yeah, but they don’t have to sit there 8 hours a day. Should I keep pushing on this issue? I’m already looking for a new job, but I don’t think I can make it through the summer in these conditions without having a health issue.

    2. fposte*

      It’s legal to provide air-conditioning to some and not to others. It wouldn’t be legal to leave you un-airconditioned *because* you’re women and minorities. But if that’s not the reason–especially if there are women and minorities elsewhere in the company who do have A/C–that’s not discriminatory. If literally the only women and minorities working for this employer are in an un-airconditioned closet, though, I’d say that company’s being stupid and asking for trouble. If that’s the case, I would consider raising that point (without using the word “stupid”).

      If you have a health condition, you could seek accommodation under the ADA, or you could ask for intermittent FMLA so you can leave early before the heat really rises. Alternatively: big fan at the door pulling the A/C air in; chill pads and neck chillers; lots of cold drinks; extensive swearing. Sorry; I would loathe this.

    3. Lizzy May*

      The workspace I used to be in was super hot, as in heat stroke in March hot and it was not good. We had a wall mounted air conditioner put in to help with the heat. (A Mitsubishi Electric Mr. Slim) We do have an exterior wall, which could make a difference with that though.

    4. Nobody*

      Oh, that’s awful. Have you looked into getting a portable air conditioning unit? You could set one up by the door of the office and route the exhaust duct outside the room. That would help cool and circulate the air.

      Unfortunately, OSHA considers air conditioning to be a matter of comfort, not safety, so this is legal, but that doesn’t mean it’s right. I would suggest getting a temperature and humidity monitor for the room so you (and management) can see exactly how hot it is. They may be able to walk in the room and say, “It’s not that bad,” but it’s hard to deny that 90 F is excessively hot (especially if it’s also humid). Look up a heat index chart. If it’s 90 F, that will fall under the “extreme caution” category for heat stress risk, or even “danger” if the humidity is high. This might help to drive the point that it’s not just whining; it could actually be hazardous.

      You might also want to mention that the heat is making it hard to focus, and you frequently experience heat stress symptoms and need to take breaks to leave the room and cool off, which is making your productivity suffer.

    5. BRR*

      I’d keep pushing, like really push as much as I can. I can’t work while hot. Some phrases:
      “I can’t work when the temperature reaches X degrees.”
      “The room is so hot we’re all feeling very sick working in there.”
      “We need a fan, where should I go to get one?”
      “Now that we can’t work from home, where would you like me to order a fan from?”
      They also make portable A/C units.

      I hate being hot and this is ridiculous so I am suggesting being a little more forceful when I otherwise would ask. If this doesn’t work you might need to just suck it up and buy a fan. I recommend a tornado. They sell a little desk fan but one of their models can easily handle a whole room.

      1. HotInCleveland*

        Thanks!

        Yeah, I’m going to buy a fan for my desk and submit an expense reimbursement. All of our complaints have not been taken seriously, really. The building really felt badly and is trying to install a second air conditioner and place fans strategically to try to direct some air into the room. I’m really hoping it improves soon. I too am one of those people who can’t function when it’s hot. I’ve also been noticing that when I hit the gym after work, I feel really weak and am not able to have a good workout, so my usual worth stress relieving tool is also being taken from me!

        I’m really hoping I find a new job soon, but my search hasn’t been too prosperous. I really can’t work somewhere that would treat people like this. This is not the only example of the “haves vs have nots” that’s occurred, but to me it’s definitely the most offensive.

    6. Observer*

      Actually, they can put in a split unit. Keep track of the temperature in your room. Perhaps if you can document how high it gets on a regular basis, it might help.

      Are most of the rest of the staff white males?

  94. louise*

    Got my first full size Nature Box this week! I’m delighted. The free sample box was helpful in ruling out something I thought I would love, but actually hated. (Dark chocolate nom noms. Too healthy tasting and the wrong texture for me.) I’m having the boxes delivered to work and it was such a fun surprise when it arrived. They’re not usually healthy, but I use snacks throughout the day as little rewards and time markers…it’s nice to have some good-for-you, not-too-processed snacks just drop in my lap.

    1. Amber Rose*

      I can’t stop eating masa crisps. They’re so amazingly salty and lovely.

      I like the fruit leather too but you don’t get very much of it.

    2. Lizzy May*

      I got the guacamole bites and they are amazing. I tried the Dark Chocolate nom noms too and I agree that they’re not for me taste-wise. I’m looking forward to trying something else next month.

  95. CoffeeLover*

    I’m hoping someone can give me advice or personal experience on finding a job in a foreign country when you need sponsorship for a work visa. My boyfriend is from an EU country and I’m Canadian. He’s planning to move to me in a year when he finishes his masters degree. While I plan to talk to an immigration lawyer about this, I believe he can live with me on a visitors visa while looking for a job, and then get a work permit once he gets a job offer.

    My question has to do with finding a job. I know it will be hard, but I’m worried it might be impossible. He has little relevant experience and a masters degree in logistics. I think living in the same city will help him in his job hunt. I also read here on AAM that he should put “Require sponsorship for work permit” (or something like that) on his resume. Is there anything else he should do/consider?

    To be honest, I might be feeling a bit guilty since I had the luxury of finding a job easily after graduating, and he’ll have to take the much harder route to be with me. I would love to hear some success stories if anyone has some.

    1. Apollo Warbucks*

      It might be worth him checking the terms of his visitors visa allow job hunting* and you should check the terms of the work permit as he may need to leave the country to apply for one and it’s also worth checking the jobs he likely to apply for are suitable for a work permit as they tend to be restricted to certain industries where there is a shortage of qualified people.

      * or keep very quiet about his intention to job hunt when getting through immigration, he can and will be turned back at the boarder if they think he is going to work illegally or if they believe he’s got intentions of setteling in Canada by, bypassing the immigration process and evidence of a serious relationship with a Canadian national could be seen as a reaso to breach visa conditions such as overstaying or working illegally.

      1. CoffeeLover*

        You make really good points, but I have already checked all that, and we’re good to go (kind of). As far as job searching while on a visitor visa, it’s allowed, but like you said they would probably term him away at the border. Kind of stupid really. When coming in he would definitely only say he’s visiting his girlfriend (which he has done before without problem). Also in all likelihood, he would have to apply for a work permit outside of Canada. I believe he can just mail in the application and would only need to leave the country if they wanted an interview. But like I said, I’m still planning to talk to an immigration lawyer to make sure I’ve understood the law as it pertains to him. My question is more about whether employers would be willing to hire him, although I do suppose it really depends on the state of the market and demand for his target jobs.

      2. Dynamic Beige*

        If you’ve ever seen the show Border Security, a lot of that happens. Speak to the immigration lawyer, or someone in government and find out what the procedure should be. You may find it’s easier to marry him and sponsor him that way, if he can’t find a job and company to sponsor his immigration.

    2. Former Diet Coke Addict*

      OK, I am in the process of living in Canada as a worker, having spent several years here as a resident.

      It’s hard. It’s VERY hard. Job markets can be pretty tight, depending on where you live, and lots of companies are reluctant to hire if they’re going to need to sponsor. There is new legislation in place where employers have to prove they tried to hire a Canadian and pay the necessary fees for sponsoring a work permit, which can be pricey, and deters many. If he has less experience it’s going to be even more difficult for him to do so.

      Speak to your local MP’s office, if you have one nearby. They’re usually very helpful with questions like this, or can refer you to a group in your community that answers questions like this.

      Definitely do not marry him just to sponsor him for work. That can be devastating and screw up both your lives, since you will be held responsible for ensuring he can live without going onto welfare, etc., and can generally just be a disastrous move. Talk to someone in immigration, or an MP, etc., and think really hard–this can be a really, really difficult road for an immigrant.

      1. CoffeeLover*

        Thank you for the MP suggestion. I hadn’t thought of that and they sound like a good resource for information.

        I’m not sure if some of that applies to him. Under international agreement employers do not need a market assessment to hire a foreigner in his field (they don’t need to prove they’ve tried to hire locally or any of that). He’s an engineer for what it’s worth. (Again, planning to talk to a lawyer since this stuff is more than a little complicated.) As far as I can tell, the fee is $155, but I would be surprised that would seriously deter employers from a good candidate??

        As far as marriage goes, I’ve considered it. We plan to live together when he comes here, so after a year, he will qualify as common law regardless. So if he hasn’t found a job in a year, he can apply for an open work permit that doesn’t require employer sponsorship as he would count as my common law spouse. I don’t really see the point in pursuing full immigration since I would ultimately like to move to Europe (in 3-10years).

        1. Former Diet Coke Addict*

          It absolutely will deter employers, depending on the region. I have spoken to a number of employers and would-be employees about it, and they have mentioned how it really does deter them and encourage them to seek out Canadian candidates.

          Definitely try your MP and speak to a lawyer. I don’t mean to scare you, but it’s a really hard row to hoe and involves a ton of paperwork, time, and stress. Applying for work permits even under family class is a long, drawn-out, shitty process and can be quite expensive at times. Talk to professionals.

          1. CoffeeLover*

            I appreciate your candour. There is definitely a long road of battle ahead of us, but it’s basically unavoidable. We’ll have to deal with EU or Canadian immigration (or both). Neither of which is a walk in the park (though I can’t lie I’m holding onto a glimmer of hope that it won’t be too bad).

      2. Dynamic Beige*

        Definitely do not marry him just to sponsor him for work. That can be devastating and screw up both your lives, since you will be held responsible for ensuring he can live without going onto welfare, etc., and can generally just be a disastrous move.

        There was a Fifth Estate show about marriage/visa fraud in Canada that was really heartbreaking that showed how low some people are willing to sink to move here. I was not suggesting marriage to be flip, but if that was something that was on the table before as a serious consideration then that might be the one way you could be together (provided you were going that way anyway). If you were planning on moving back to the EU in a few years, you might have the same problem he does if you are not a citizen or legally married to one — once again, something to discuss with experts.

        FWIW, one of my friends married their long-term partner so that they could be together in Canada. They’ve since moved back to the US (my friend’s jobs take them all over the place). Another one of my friends moved to England with her boyfriend years ago, he was born there but she could only get a visitor’s visa which did not allow her to work and at the end of the 6 months, she had to come back.

        1. CoffeeLover*

          Without getting into the details of our relationship, we are planning on getting married. It was a distant thought (like in 3-5 years), but with the way immigration issues are looking, we might have a quick trip to the courthouse on our horizons. We don’t really have a reason to delay getting married, except for the fact I feel like doing it for immigration reasons kills the romance of it all. Though to be fair practicality should really trump romance.

          We do joke sometimes that we’re marrying each other for our papers. Him to come to Canada, and me to move to the EU. Ultimately though, we’re both getting pretty tired of the long distance thing :(.

          1. Finny*

            I am a US citizen married to a Canadian. Once we save up the money I will apply for Canadian citizenship, as I have been a permanent resident for eight years, now. We did marry so we could legally be together, though we’d been planning on getting married anyway. The immigration legalities just meant it happened sooner rather than later. It was still difficult, with lots of paperwork, but it was infinitely easier, and faster, for us, to get married and do the family class sponsorship.

            If you are wanting to get married at some point anyway, I really would suggest doing so to make the immigration stuff easier.

  96. Bella*

    Help please!

    My organization is always hiring. I keep receiving a resume from the same applicant who meets our requirements, however, I checked out his social media profile, and contacted one of his previous employers and he is not someone that we would want to have work for us. He jobs hops a lot, has drinking problems and then just disappears.

    I want to send him a formal rejection but I don’t know what to say. I can’t say “we don’t have a position for you at this time” because we do, we just do not want him.

    Thanks!

    1. Amber Rose*

      Maybe something lile “thank you for your interest but we are pursuing other options right now.”

    2. Katie the Fed*

      “We’ve filled this position, but we will keep your resume on file in case other opportunities come up.”

    4. Steve G*

      I’m job hopping so curious how you found out about all of this (not that I have the same problems, but…) – did you contact the employer without even talking to the candidate?

      I’m also a little concerned that you mentioned job hopping, because I did, but if the company saw the salaries and job duties I did during that period of my life they would totally understand (lots of $12-$15/hour gigs for 2 years in an area where you need to make at least $45K to live).

      1. Relosa*

        Same – I’m not too worried about job-hopping as it is I am worried about the why. We all know there’s no such thing as job security anymore, whether it’s because someone willfully left for greener pastures (my general idea is you can either pay me crap, or be a toxic work place, but you can’t be both – I’ll take low wages for work I truly enjoy) or because the company let them go.

    5. BRR*

      You could even try a phone screen and then a “We don’t think you’d be a good fit for our office culture and we want to ensure candidates would be happy here. “

  97. over educated and underemployed*

    Last week I posted agonizing over whether to take a great job opportunity 5 hours away from my spouse, with an infant. I decided not to do it in the end, despite fearing I won’t get another chance like that, because I was so sad about splitting up the family.

    I feel mostly pretty good about it considering that having a baby is exhausting even with two parents, i really love our family time together, and I had a good conversation with my direct supervisor yesterday about projects I could take on to develop professionally in my current position. Since it is not permanent they understand that I will need to move on and hopefully the overall manager will also support these projects. So my path forward may be less direct than if I had taken the job but at least I can work to move forward while searching for a longer term gig.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Well done. This sounds like it is just right for you at this moment. I have a hunch this will all play out well for you in years to come.

  98. LUCYVP*

    I have a question about how others handle reference checks.
    As a hiring manager, I have always called applicant’s references myself.
    Our organization has a new HR Manager and he has been doing all the reference checks and employment verifications himself.
    I dont have any openings on my team right now, but I am worried that this is becoming the norm for our organization. I have a small team that tends to stick around so I fill a spot maybe once a year, but as I watch my coworkers go through the hiring process with this new HR guy it makes me wary.

    IS this a thing? that HR does reference checks? I understand HR verifying employment history, but references seems weird!

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      It’s a thing some places, but it’s a bad thing. Tell your HR manager that you prefer to do reference checks yourself because you want to get nuanced information that will help you make a hiring decision (and tell encourage other managers in your organization to do the same thing).

      1. LUCYVP*

        Thanks Alison.

        I definitely plan on pushing back when the time comes, and I have already made some comments to other managers about how I thought it was weird and not particularly effective.

      2. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        Side note, we’re making an internal push to go Team Alison with your advice on recruiting. We’ve been so busy and growing that when we got an internal recruiter provided to us, we did a bunch of things you’ve said not to do. (last couple of years, started before I “knew” you and had your advice!)

        Well, I’ve become convinced of your wisdom because we’re not happy with the recruiting results. It’s hard when the hiring managers have so much other work to do but we’re setting up to go back to our old ways. Hiring managers reviewing all incoming resumes, doing initial phone screens and doing reference checks.

        (We think good potential candidates are getting screened out before they get to managers.)

    2. Retail Lifer*

      I’ve always done them myself, but at the last place I worked we had a third party company do them (along with the employment history and criminal background checks). You can’t ask appropriate follow-up questions when all you get are notes. We weren’t supposed to call the references back after they were completed, but I did once or twice to get clarification.

  99. Margali*

    How do you research salaries? We are opening up a few positions, including a stockroom manager, and I am having a hard time figuring out what our salary range should be. It’s not a retail stockroom, which is most of what I am pulling up. Any suggested websites?

  100. Victoria, Please*

    When you do pre-screening of candidates, do you prefer Skype or phone? A colleague of mine had quite a conversation recently about the possibility of bias due to looks, race, disability, etc., vs the advantage of being able to see body language with Skype. This is academia, so pre-screens tend to be in-depth 60-minutes or so.

    My colleague noticed that people who talk a big game about being all concerned about bias tend to like Skype, and insist that they can handle it. Do you all think that’s true? Or should people avoid any potential exposure to biasing information as long as possible?

    How concerned are you about that kind of bias with Skype vs phone — and WHY or WHY NOT?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I just find Skype awkward, so I always start with a phone screen and then move to in-person. Skype is for extraordinary circumstances.

    2. Steve G*

      I am with you, I totally don’t get why people need to look at me talking for a phone screen – especially when they can look at my linkedin pic if they are curious as to what I look like. I had one a month ago with a NYC tech startup, and when I saw the lady doing the screen, I felt like we were from 2 different parishes. She looked like a stereotypical “hipster,” I look and dress pretty plain/conservatively. I do wonder if I wasn’t invited in because I didn’t look cool enough.

      Besides the bias, there are the unnecessary logistics beforehand, namely, friend-requesting the person on Skype. I’ve been told to do this for 2 screens so far, and of course, the hiring manager never accepted the request, even though the HR person said they would accept it right away…which created unnecessary follow up work for people who are supposedly very busy.

      Also, I hate Skype screens because there is pressure to focus on staring at the screen and smiling and gesturing to look interesting instead of focusing on what you’re saying. I’d like to save that for an in person interview.

    3. WorkingFromCafeInCA*

      My company prefers to do initial screens via skype/google hangout, but we always give the option to do a phone call if that’s better for the candidate. We do it because the people we hire are public speakers and are client-facing, so we like to see their demeanor. We also like to see their judgement on setting up the call; one candidate had a clothesline with bras and underwear hanging clearly right behind him. We also teach about tech-related topics, so if someone isn’t capable of getting a webcam to work and arranging decent lighting, it also speaks to their capabilities.

      As an interviewer, I really don’t think it’s weird to see someone looking at their screen (me) instead of at the camera. It *would* be strange to see them looking all over the place, at other people / their cat / the floor, etc.

    4. BRR*

      If it’s for professors, either is fine.

      If it’s for admin positions, phone and 60 min is a bit much. I say phone because I can sneak off during lunch for a phone call but not for a skype session. And it’s inconsiderate for me to need to use PTO for a prescreen.

  101. wannabephoenix*

    I have copies of my written reviews- they are very very good. Can I use them as references? How can I use these?

    1. Nancy*

      I see you have lots of questions today! Like Alison suggested above, try the site search engine for some of these. You will find many articles on the broad topics you’re asking about today.

      1. wannabephoenix*

        thank you- yep I am pretty lost. working in a toxic night shift 7 pm to 7 am shift. I am on vacation and am actually up in time to participate in this thread for once. Trying to use my time wisely before I succumb to the black cloud of despair and gloom. This is the first time I have been up at 12 pm instead of sleeping in 5 years. The shift and the people I work with are killing me. I think I owned every toxic workplace book from Barnes and Noble.
        I just have to suck it up, get a new job somehow and get on with my life. I just don’t know how, I’m paralyzed.

    2. AnotherFed*

      No, you can’t use old performance reviews as references. References need to be living, breathing people who can answer questions about your work, strengths, weaknesses, and skills/abilities/experience.

    3. The IT Manager*

      In the US references are people who can speak to your experience. So, no, even letters specifically written as letters of reference won’t fly. Except for specific industries, letters of reference are useless.

      What you can do is use the reviews to get idea for your resume accomplishments (but you probably can’t copy the info them verbatim).

  102. Kay*

    I have never had an annual performance review at my current job. It’s a not-so-open secret that my boss just never bothers to do them, though it’s in our employee handbook. I have a pretty good relationship with her and have a decent general sense of how I’m doing, but feel a bit uneasy that I’ve never had a review.

    Here’s the catch, though: at my previous job, my last performance review was a total ambush. Another manager from another department sat in at the last minute and said that I had serious communication issues. When I asked politely and professionally for details so that I could improve, she said she thought there was one time six months ago – which I remembered clearly, and explained and outlined the circumstances as well as the steps I’d taken to improve in the time since. I asked for other examples, or anything I could or should do to improve, and the other manager gave me absolutely nothing. My own boss was utterly shocked by this information – which was never communicated to her – and said as much, but then proceeded to throw me under the bus and write me a terrible review, though I had the best year I’d ever had and she had said that right before my review.

    Coincidentally, I left two months later for my current job. So I’ve never had a good review to layer on top of that one terrible experience. So that makes me really, really gunshy to ask for one with my current boss, even though I have ever reason to believe it would go well.

    Should I suck it up and ask for a review? If so, how should I go about phrasing it? I will literally be the first person who has ever done this for this boss.

    1. Amber Rose*

      Informal would probably be your best bet if your boss doesn’t like doing them.

      “Hey boss, I’ve been here [x amount of time] and I was hoping you could set aside a few minutes to talk with meabout how I’m doing and anything you want me to work on. Possibly on Tuesday at 9? “

    2. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Do it! I had to request mine, and I popped into Boss’s office and asked if we could do some sort of review and reflection. She was very enthusiastic about the idea. Amber Rose’s language is really close to what I used.

  103. NicoleK*

    This week in My new coworker is clueless. Back story: New coworker is tasked with supervising an intern, who has been with the organization since the beginning of the year. Intern was brought on to work on a specific project (which will end in December with the possibility of renewing). It’s a paid internship but with the understanding that intern is here to learn. New coworker isn’t happy that intern can’t do x in y hours (cause it only takes new coworker y hours to do it).

    During a meeting with fellow managers, new coworker announced that she had awesome news to share. She was positively over the moon. Giddy. Glowing. Her news: she wasn’t happy with intern, she wants to end intern’s experience early, and she found an awesome replacement for intern (replacement is a friend of new coworker).

    Sounds fabulous except for the following minor details: intern is still on payroll, replacement has not been interviewed nor hired, there are no funds to cover for replacement’s salary (replacement is going to cost way more than intern), and she still needs to run this by our supervisor!!

    2. Shan*

      I feel bad for the current intern in this situation! They are there to learn, which is the tradeoff for a project taking longer. I hope your supervisor denies her request.

  104. Ten*

    How do I tell my male boss about my breast reduction?

    I just FINALLY got insurance to approve a breast reduction and am scheduling it in a few months. I picked a day that overlaps with a holiday weekend so I won’t be missing much/won’t have to use many sick days for recovery. I’m just not sure how to tell my boss. We’re pretty causal, but this is still a personal issue? How would y’all suggest framing it?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I think you can keep it vague that you have a medical procedure that will take you out for a couple of days.

      1. Ten*

        My only worry is that when I come back I will look remarkably different. I’ve also shared my excitement about the surgery with some female coworkers who have also had the surgery, so is it any sort of a problem keeping the boss out of the loop? I feel like it shouldn’t be, but I also don’t want to step on any lines.

        1. HeyNonnyNonny*

          If you boss is male, he can’t exactly say out loud, ‘I’m so upset that Ten didn’t share her breast status with me!’ I think you can keep it vague.

        2. Dasha*

          My sister’s having a somewhat similar issue right now. I finally told her not to stress about her boss when she’s going to stress about surgery too, it’s not worth it. Like Katie said, “I’m having surgery and will be out for a few days.” :)

          1. Katie the Fed*

            As a manager, I really DON’T want to know the gory details. I had someone try to tell me in great detail about her appointment to get an IUD emplaced and was like STAHHHHHP

        3. Anonsie*

          Nope, none of no one’s business. They might notice but they should (should. should) know better than to say anything to anyone.

          1. nep*

            Second this and many others — no need to go into detail. Having surgery / need to be out for x days. Period.

        4. BRR*

          I’d probably be honest if it’s the right relationship. For something more vague I would go, “I will be out for a few days for surgery, you might notice a physical difference when I return so I just wanted to give you a heads up so you weren’t surprised.”

        5. fallingleaves*

          Could you ask any of those coworkers how they handled it? Even if they weren’t working at the same places, at least some of them probably had to talk to a boss about it.

    3. Nanc*

      You could drop some hints without coming right out an saying what it is. As in, I’ll be having surgery and will be out such and such days. When I return, my doctor says I won’t be able to lift/stretch/do this other motion that’s normally part of my job and here’s my suggestions for how to work around that until I’m healed. I think if you are matter of fact and offer information that assures him you’ll be able to do your job when you’re back he’ll be fine with it. And yeah, you’ll look different but as other folks have said, he doesn’t need to know exact details and he certainly (I hope!) won’t comment on your appearance.

  105. LizB*

    I had an interview today where I went in knowing very little about the job — the description was HR boilerplate that applies to lots of positions within this very large organization, and I couldn’t find very much info on the specific branch online. From what I did know, I wasn’t sure I’d be very interested in the job, but I figured I’d go in and do my best and ask lots of questions. And actually… I think the job would be a pretty decent fit! Not a ~dream job~, but interesting work, a decent environment, and good colleagues. The interview went very well, and they’re making decisions within the next couple of days, so now I just wait.

  106. Melissa*

    Several weeks ago I came in saying that I wanted to transition out of academia into a research job in the tech world. You all gave me some great tips and resources!

    I wanted to come back and say that I got a job! I signed the offer letter Wednesday! It’s such an excellent position for me – design/user research in video game design. It requires a pretty big relocation but I’m really excited about moving to the new city (Seattle area, if anyone has tips!)

    It also worked out because my birthday was yesterday, so it was like the ultimate birthday gift!

    1. Adam*

      Congratulations! That sounds like a fun job to have!

      As a Seattle transplant (grew up in Nevada, moved here for college and stayed) how you’ll adjust to it I think depends upon where you were moving from. If you’re familiar at all with the Pacific North West it probably won’t be too big of a transition than usual. If not there is an inherent quirkiness about the area that might take some getting used to. Just be sure to get out a lot and take in all there is to do in the area, because there’s a ton!

      1. Melissa*

        I’m moving from New York, and I am not at all familiar with the Pacific Northwest – I’ve been on the East Coast my whole life. I visited briefly for the interview but that was it. I’m sooo excited to get out there and do a lot and meet people!

        1. Adam*

          It’s a lot easier to meet people in this town if you take part in organized “structured” activities. So pick out some of your best hobbies you can be social with and find groups based around those. People seem to be more willing to meet up if there’s an established purpose for it. Also, volunteer. People really like volunteers around here.

    6. Thinking out loud*

      Yay! I’m a Seattle transplant from California, so my transition was probably easier, because I find that west coasters tend to be pretty similar. Dress will probably be on the casual side of business casual, both because of your job and because it’s Seattle – I generally wear dress pants and a dress shirt or sweater, but when I do wear jeans, no one cares unless I’m meeting with customers.

      I agree with joining some groups to find people who enjoy the same things as you – Seattleites are known for being friendly but difficult to actually become friends with. Don’t be offended – in my experience, those people are just shy and don’t want to overstep.

  107. Grad School?*

    I know Alison says not to go to grad school unless you know what for…but how do you find out what for?

    Here are a few scenarios:
    -Business school seems useful for so many different careers and positions. How do you figure out which one(s) might appeal before traveling down that path?
    -I’m currently in a research position that provides me broad exposure to all sorts of sub fields within my broader subject matter. But I won’t work in research forever – I’m just not sure which sub field I might want to stick in for my career, and therefore what “specialization” of a masters degree in my subject matter would be most fruitful.

    Also, should I take the standardized tests before figuring all this out, or wait?

    1. wesgerrr*

      I just wanted to boost your post, (I wish I had the answer!) I struggled with this as well, until I decided to study for a certification course that is much more suitable for my industry (supply chain) than business school would have been. I think it’s very industry specific like that. I do have friends who went straight into their Masters program and now work retail jobs full time. Since you seem to be out of school and you know what you want, this should not be an issue!

    2. Jillociraptor*

      I think the best thing to do is to talk to others about their paths. Maybe with coworkers, or maybe through alumni of your undergraduate institution, or just whatever groups you belong to, find a few people who have jobs you find interesting and ask them about how they ended up in those jobs, what they like about them, how they match with your skills, etc.

      Take the standardized tests when you’re ready to apply. Some will only be accepted for a few years after you take them, and you don’t want to run into an issue of having to retake them later if you don’t have to!

    3. Melissa*

      1. Wait on the standardized tests. They expire after a while – the GRE expires after 5 years, so you want to be sure that you maximize that time. Plus, no need to spend the money if you decide not to go.

      2. You sort of work backwards. You look at the people who are doing the kinds of things that you want to do, and then investigate what kinds of education they have. LinkedIn has made this easier; you can check out people’s educational histories through there, but also looking at coworkers and managers in your workplace and others that do things that seem interesting. See if you see patterns that come up again – like you notice over half the people doing stuff interesting to you have MBAs or something.

      The question then is often how do you figure out what’s interesting to you? I think that does come from talking to people about their jobs – informational interviews. Also taking some time to think about the tasks you do every day at work, what you love and what you really don’t like, and trying to progressively move more towards doing the stuff you love.

      One note about business school – I know that large salaries are stereotypically attached to it, but not all MBA programs yield that, FYI. The top 15-20 MBA programs have high salaries and then it goes rapidly downward after that. I think that the average starting salary of a new MBA is actually closer to $50-60K than it is to the six-figure salaries people associate with it. But I think to maintain AASCB accreditation business schools have to publish statistics including employment information – every MBA program I’ve seen has a set of statistics around that including starting salary and employment within 3 months of graduation. So take that into account when you decide how much money to lay out.

    4. c*

      I would echo all of Melissa’s advice. Definitely wait on the standardized tests. My program (a regional, fairly specialized one) didn’t even require the GRE because I met a threshold with my undergraduate GPA.

      If you decide to go for the MBA, you might consider whether you are currently in an area of the country that you can see yourself staying in for a while (unless the program you pursue is particularly prestigious and has national appeal). When I have spoken to MBA-holders, they have said that the main advantage they gained was a network. Look for something cohort-based, where you will have a chance to interact with others and get to know them.

      If you are still searching for your area of focus, it’s not time for grad school yet. I had been at my job for about three years when I realized exactly which field

      Also, it sounds obvious, but go to information sessions that grad programs in your area might be hosting. You can get a sense of who else is looking into the programs you are considering and what their interests are. A lot of times they’ll go around the room and do introductions for everyone in attendance, and even this simple first impression can help give you a sense of whether they are “your people” or not.

    5. Grad School?*

      Thanks to everyone who has responded so far. This is all really helpful!! I’m definitely eager to hear from anyone else who wants to chime in, but I wanted to thank everyone who’s responded up to this point. :)

  108. Relosa*

    I’m in a much better place about it now, but I’m really down about my job hunt.

    Last week, I had an amazing interview for a role that is absolutely ideal for my next step, and exactly the kind of work I want to do. I totally aced it. It was a great conversation. Etc etc. They made all the signs they wanted to move forward, and even said so at the end of our meeting. They mentioned they only had one or two other people to talk to and then would be in touch with me this week about a second interview with the CEO.

    So, I followed up on Wednesday. They responded within 15 minutes:

    Relosa,

    I apologize for the delay in getting back to you. It’s been crazy busy and I’ve had to reschedule several other interviews for the position. We are still processing through the queue of potential candidates that has existed prior to my interview with you. At this time we have not made any determination of top tier candidates, and I hope this is not a major inconvenience for you. I wish I could give you a definitive timeline but as you know this is a difficult time of year to try and fill this key position.

    As things develop I will update you. In the meantime, please feel free to contact me anytime with inquiries or questions.

    There is no reason for me to be upset about any of this. The interview went beautifully, they already personally know some of my references, I passed the background check, they were excited to talk to me about fit for the company, we were both mutually open about concerns, and I still fell in love with the company, and they are still prompt, professional, and courteous in correspondence (!). This is by far one of the only A+ experiences I’ve had with interviewing and job selection.

    Except – I already know I’m not going to get the job. This isn’t the “move on and forget about it” standard here. I already know my chances are shot. This part of the industry, and in particular this exact type of role, is so male-dominated and conservative that it makes other ‘traditional’ lines of work look liberal and progressive. I’m a woman in this field, and my experience isn’t 100% what they want (it’s more like 95%). I already know I’m not even a finalist. That’s just how it goes.

    I’m trying not to mope, but it’s hard to stay hopeful after that. I was the first person they interviewed. If they’re still doing first-round interviews now, three weeks in to the process – I’m already a goner. Memories are way too short.

    I shouldn’t, but I’m an avoidant person when I’m disappointed or hurt, and it’s taking every single ounce not to withdraw. I hate sounding fatalistic but I’ve had 100% failure rate in getting a professional position in this field, and these opportunities are so, so so so so rare – of course I’d never get it.

    1. fposte*

      I’m sorry, Relosa. I’m going to assume you know the field well enough to have assessed this correctly.

      But I would strongly discourage you from withdrawing. I get the whole avoidant/hurt thing, because that’s my language, but I think it’s a bad plan for two reasons: one, the obvious one, is that there’s always the possibility you might have misread your chances; two is that you’re already doing the worst to yourself, and it’s not a bad idea to develop some “I can survive rejection” muscles. Can you create a positive plan for what you’ll do instead of or to limit the licking of wounds? Sometimes the real challenge in changing a response is figuring out what you’d do instead.

      1. Relosa*

        I definitely won’t do it – withdraw – but rather now I feel stupidly embarrassed for even applying, and that I’m just being humored. I know that’s not the reality, that’s just what it feels like. It’s so frustrating – when I saw the posting, I had that wonderful “Yes! THIS is exactly what I’m looking for!” and I was all excited and my materials were great and reflected exactly how enthusiastic I was about the opportunity. I get so happy and confident because I know that this is what I’m meant to do (I know that’s a bad train of thought to have, but this is the only type of role I let myself get carried away with. Everything else is strictly business and cut and dry – this particular work is something I truly enjoy and feel like I’m not ‘working’ at when I do it, no matter how busy and crazy and stressful it gets, which is all the time)

        Another frustrating thing is that while networking isn’t a make-or-break thing in this particular industry, it does heavily rely on LinkedIn and a lot of participation in events and conferences – all of which are very expensive. I haven’t been able to really stay ‘involved’ with the industry in that sense, with the network itself, because of the cost involved – like I don’t even know how I’m paying my cell phone bill this month, much less try to set up meetings with mentors and other contacts, even less figure out how I’m going to schlep myself cross country 2 – 3x yearly and pay dues for the association – since I’m not employed by a company in the association, my fees as an individual are crazy expensive. These are all things I’m very happy to do, I just can’t do them, and not being involved hurts my reputation. And because I’ve been so busy the past year and some with moving, building other skills (and being driven into the ground with having two jobs and toxic bosses) I’m trying to get back into the online network at least but it’s a challenge.

        It’s very much the scarcity of it all – one role opens up and everyone goes running for it. I just feel like the odds are definitely not ever in my favor no matter how hard I try.

        I’m applying to other work – always – it’s just hard to stay enthusiastic about it.

        Thank you for your response – I’ve tried to talk to other friends and family this week, and while they understand a part of what I’m dealing with, it’s lovely to get anonymous third-party support too :)

        1. BRR*

          To me it sounds like if these opportunities are so rare you probably haven’t been able to apply to a ton of positions.

          Also unless you know for sure, hiring is slow. For the last position I helped hire for, we spread out first round interviews over weeks. We took so long to hire overall I’m surprised we were able to get somebody awesome.

          1. Relosa*

            Yeah, of the 200+ jobs I have applied to since graduation, maybe 10 or fewer of them were this role specifically. I lost one of my spreadsheets (well, it’s on a hard drive I can’t access right now) so I don’t have the exact figures. but yeah. They’re like diamonds, lol.

            I know hiring takes forever. It’s stupid that it does though, IMO. Or, just don’t tell people anything you know you can’t live up to. It went from “the latest we will touch base with you is Monday after your background check and drug screen go through” to “no idea when we’re moving forward.” In this field, if you make a clear statement like that, you’re communicating that you’ve set up contingencies to make sure the deadline is met, because everyone knows that things can – and will – delay you otherwise. If that makes sense.

    2. LBK*

      I think it’s perfectly fine to mentally move on because that’s what I’d encourage in any hiring process, even if you never got this email. For what it’s worth, that’s almost exactly the email I would write to a candidate that I genuinely was interested in moving forward with but didn’t have any concrete answers for yet. But I defer to your knowledge of the industry.

      I agree with fposte, though, that I see no benefit in withdrawing. You gain nothing by doing so and you lose whatever chance you had, infinitesimal as it may be.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Agreed. I’d keep my hat in the ring at least. And since you checked back, the company knows you’re interested. As AAM advises us, we should be moving on to the next application anyway. But it’s hard when it’s something you’re really excited about, I know.

      2. Relosa*

        Thank you – your feedback did help a bit :) I know all signs are pointing to good rather than bad, I just have to assume that it will all be for naught and still not result in anything. Not like that’s really against AAM’s advice, and something I’m really good at for the other 98% of jobs I apply to.

        Job hunting is a gamble, and it’s so dumb that it is.

  109. Curious*

    Alison, Since it’s not really a work question, I wasn’t sure if I should send an e-mail. I am just more curious to know if there has ever been discussion about creating an AskAManager phone app. The mobile website version works very well, but I would definitely download an app if one was available. Thanks!

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I’ve had a couple of app makers approach me about it, but I’ve never been able to figure out what an app would do that would be better than the mobile version of the site. I’d love thoughts on this, actually!

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        An app could help you more easily crowd-source readers’ salaries, which I think someone has had, in the past, to volunteer to manually put into a spreadsheet.

      2. LBK*

        It would be great if there were an easier way to navigate or skip through posts. To get to a post from earlier today on the mobile site, you either have to scroll down to it on the first page (which is a lot of scrolling if today’s letters have been long) or click the first article and scroll down through the comments to the links at the bottom to navigate to the previous article.

        In terms of commenting, the position of the name field, the comment box and the submit button combined with the way mobile Safari jumps to form fields makes it almost impossible to get all through of those things on the screen at once. People here also like to write great, thorough comments which are incidentally also very long to scroll through on mobile – if maybe just the first few lines were visible and you could tap to reveal the rest, that would make it easier to scroll past comments you’ve already read.

        I suppose these could probably be implemented on the mobile site as well but my impression is that it’s easier to customize those kinds of navigation and layout changes into an app.

      3. Curious*

        I replied to the wrong section:

        Well for me, a benefit could be getting notifications of when a comment was responded to on my phone. Sometimes I’m not at my desk or able to access email right away.

        1. LBK*

          +1 – and I find mobile notifications more wieldy than email notifications in general anyway.

          1. Curious*

            Agreed. I also find I take action more quickly from a mobile notification than an e-mail for some reason.

      4. AnotherFed*

        Could it be set up to allow more granular notifications of follow up comments? Open threads are so huge that it would also be nice to allow the follow-up or RSS subscription to be by subsection, so that it would be possible to follow, say, all the responses to Curious here rather than just the responses to me.

        1. Kyrielle*

          If an app could be made intelligent about this, and to remember which comments you have ‘seen’ and perhaps allow you to hide/collapse those but not new replies, that would be awesome.

      5. Rehabilitating Mr Wiggles*

        I’d vote no if it’s one of those apps that pops up when you access the AAM website and tries to convince you to load the app right now.

        Honestly, I can’t think of any functions that would need to go into an app that couldn’t be implemented as part of the existing website. And that includes the stuff other people have suggested so far about “remembering” content that’s already been seen, remembering to hide/show blocks, and notifications – cookies can be used for a lot of that stuff.

        Also, for better or for worse, if you went to an app, you’d be asking people to give up some of the anonymity that they get with the website. This may or may not be a major concern, and there may be ways to ameliorate it.

        Note that with an app, you now have two, maybe three code bases to deal with: the original browser-based site (which I assume is not going away, I hope), the iOS app, and maybe an Android app.

        I tend to read AAM from either my laptop computer or my iPad, and I do have to say that entering a response from the iPad can be painful. But that could most easily be fixed by modifying the Reply input box on the original website (peek at Metafilter for a possible alternative)(and they are by no means the last word on the topic).

        It’s your site, it’s up to you. But before you put any money into an app, I’d advise you to

        A) look at other sites similar to yours that offer an app, and see what you think of the experience, and what (if any) new function is provided,
        B) develop a list of new functions you’d like AAM to have, and
        C) talk to a developer that you trust and decide whether or not you really need an app to do this stuff. My guess is that you’ll discover you can do it all easier and cheaper on the existing AAM website.

        1. Rehabilitating Mr Wiggles*

          Apologies, but one last thing (which I may have mentioned before): this would not require an app, but it would be nice if users could have a small Profile or just specify a standard .signature when they post. Like, of late I’ve answered several questions and added a line about my experience in the industry (I mean, it seems logical that if I talk about computers, people would want some idea of my background). A basic Profile capability could help people determine if I know what I’m talking about.

  110. Curious*

    Well for me, a benefit could be getting notifications of when a comment was responded to on my phone. Sometimes I’m not at my desk or able to access email right away.

  111. Treena*

    Let’s talk more about management on TV. I’m thinking specifically The Office, but any show/movie is fine with me. I’ve been re-watching The Office recently, and I noticed some (mostly) good instances of management/office etiquette. For example, when Kathy Bates’ character promotes Darryl.

    Other examples of good etiquette I noticed were when Michael was temporarily sitting in the desks, and was upset because Phyllis’ medicine made her fart. No one supported him because she had sent out an email warning everyone ahead of time. Or how long everyone kept Dwight and Angela’s relationship a secret–I feel like most office’ couldn’t do that! Didn’t Jim and Pam each independently know but didn’t know the other one knew for a really long time?

    1. Kai*

      I’ve been rewatching the Office lately too, so I am definitely here for this! As far as good managers go, I’d love to work for David Wallace.

      When I watch shows like that or Parks and Rec, I always feel frustrated by how quickly decisions get made. Obviously, it’s a fictional show and you have to move the plot along, but like in the episode where Michael and Jim were co-managers and Jo Bennett told them they couldn’t do that anymore and one of them had to step down (and they switched twice in one day), I always think, geez, it’d be nice if things in my office moved at even half that pace.

      1. Treena*

        Yes! David Wallace was great, until he went crazy. I’d think Oscar or Darryl would be good managers (we didn’t see a lot of Darryl’s managing the warehouse), but weirdly, I think Jim would be a terrible manager.

        1. Melissa*

          I also think Jim would be a terrible manager! Partially because theoretically I would’ve worked alongside him so long and watched him not take the job seriously forever, but also because he doesn’t seem quite capable of navigating thorny social interactions.

    2. TheLazyB*

      There was a couple in my old office who kept it total secret that they were going out. I was friends with her and she still never told me for months. One person guessed Though.

      1. TheLazyB*

        Oh and not management, but: I was away whe the Friends question was raised, but I recently re watched the one where Rachel’s manager sabotages her interview, and Rachel handles the situation about as well as possible. Generally she’s awful in work but that was good.

  112. Brett*

    I’ve been struggling for years with the lack of raises in our county government department (last one was before I started 7 years ago, but been trying to find a way to get a merit raise for the last 3 years). Recently our department added 2 positions identical to mine in another unit and 2 positions similar to mine in yet another unit.

    The two identical positions advertised at my salary for the starting pay; no one close to qualified applied and open positions were cut. The two similar positions advertised at $15k above my pay for starting pay. My job requires python, javascript, and a specialized grad degree; the other two at the same grade and title require java and 2 years of college.
    No one at all applied for those two similar positions. They ended up promoting an IT tech and put him in a two year training program at the starting salary. The other position is still being advertised.

    For what we call commissioned positions, below my grade, we recently instituted a policy that existing employees have to be brought up to starting pay for their title. We had about 50 people in that situation.

    My boss has no authority to increase my pay; that goes to the head of personnel who is two positions above him and in a different division, who then gets the approval of our department head. The current head of personnel has adamantly opposed any raises for existing professional staff, but he is retiring. One huge factor for us is that many professional staff are under a 12-month post-employment restriction. People who leave generally have to move out of the area (not an option for me). I figure the pay compression with the new hire in the other unit combined with an new incoming personnel head might give me a chance.

    Anyone have thoughts on 1) how to talk to my boss about justifying a pay increase for me based on the two positions in the other unit and the policy for commissioned positions? and 2) advice I could give to my boss on how to address this with the incoming head of personnel?

    1. fposte*

      I don’t know, Brett; I kind of feel about you the way I feel about Former Diet Coke Addict, which is that you should just leave and firebomb the place when you go.

      It’s going to depend on what the new head of personnel thinks. She may look at the situation and say “This is crazy–how can we keep performance up if our retention method is just a threat of longterm unemployment?”; she may look at the budget and say “It would cost the taxpayers umpty-million to regularize everybody’s salaries, and we can’t change one without opening it all up.” The fact that policy has been created for lower-level employees is a double-edged sword; it’s a clear acknowledgment that this has been a problem, and it’s a clear acknowledgment that they don’t want to address it higher up. So I might just make my argument on pretty much the same old information–starting salaries are more than yours by $X, and you’d like to be aligned with the current rate.

      How much would you have to get to make you stop searching?

      1. Brett*

        To really stop searching, I would have to at least get up to the median for my title and experience in the public sector. But that’s more than 40% above what I make now, so the reality is that any raise I get is only going to go into enough savings so I can leave. In some ways I wish I had never worked so hard to establish myself in the industry; my pay is solid, but knowing just how far I am below everyone else while others think so highly of my work makes it very hard to keep motivating myself to stay on top of my field.

        I suspect the reason the policy was instituted for the lower level employees is that they are not under the post-employment restrictions and they are leaving in huge numbers. The first six months of this year was the highest turnover rate in the history of our organization and the reason cited over and over was pay.

        This used to be a job where 90%+ of employees stayed here until retirement. Pension, solid benefits, 5-12% annual merit raises. In my unit, my predecessor was actually the first employee in 30+ years to quit instead of retiring and even now everyone besides me is too far into their pension points to consider quitting (my manager, like the two before him, is definitely in that position even though he is a very solid manager).

      2. Former Diet Coke Addict*

        I think about it all the time. And I’m not alone. Today at work we had a serious discussion about what we would do if we all showed up to work and the building had burned down or magically disappeared in the night or been accidentally demolished by the crane working next door.

    2. CAA*

      You’ve been trying to fix this for a long time, and I’ve read your other posts on this topic. I don’t think you’re going to be able to resolve this by talking to management. They are not valuing your work the same way that you are, or they believe you are trapped in your position and have no motivation to pay you more since they are guaranteed to be able to keep you no matter what they pay you.

      My only advice is to find another field, at least temporarily. Move into the public sector, doing some other type of work for 12 months, then go back to your specialization. There are positions available in most major U.S. cities in a wide variety of industries where you can use Python and JavaScript. Indeed has about 150 such jobs listed in my area alone. You might have to commute farther away, and a job outside your specialty might not pay much more than you’re making now, but even if you had to work for the same low salary in some other industry for a year in order to open up the opportunity to get back into your preferred industry at a higher rate later on, wouldn’t that be worth it?

      Also, Java developers are quite hard to find right now, so if your pay structure is really out of whack, or if your gov’t agency requires US citizenship, that may be the reason that nobody applied for those two jobs.

  113. Pineapple Incident*

    Had an interview this week where the person I was supposed to meet with had me waiting for a half hour past our original meeting time (and I was only brought back when I went to the front desk and asked if I should come back another day). Come to find that the day my interview was scheduled for is one of their 2 busiest days (consistently) of every week (AND SHE HAD PICKED THE DAY HERSELF). She also tells me that she doesn’t want to start me at the advertised rate per hour, but lower because the experience she asked for in the ad wasn’t enough (this is a front desk position, which I do already, in the same field for over a year). When I tried to say that I wanted to find a role with more responsibility because I spend a lot of time waiting for new tasks in my current job, she says “well that’s probably good for you so you can save your energy for school.” I replied that I like to be busy at work and don’t like feeling as if there’s something more I could be doing. She also brushed off that I would need to be out of the office before six in order to make it home for online live sessions for school, and felt the need to tell me at the end of the interview “you are tired, I can tell because your eyes are red.” I ran out of there, and emailed her the next day saying I withdrew.

    TL;DR: Where the actual eff are all the normal companies/bosses and can somebody sane interview me please?

    1. wesgerrr*

      You poor thing. That is absolutely awful. I think I would have cried. I think you said/did all the right things here but people gonna cray. I hope you have a better interview come up soon! :)

    2. Shan*

      That sounds awful! Sorry you had to go through that. At least you found out early that you wouldn’t want to work at a place like that.

      While I was interviewing for my current admin position, I was asking about the potential/support for growth in the company. If they are a company that is willing to be supportive of career growth, it may be easier to get more projects and responsibility. Good luck on your search!

    3. Malissa*

      Lol! Sounds like the guy who scheduled a phone interview for a Monday and then spent half the interview telling how busy he was because Monday is his busiest day.

  114. Katie the Fed*

    So, after a few months I’m settling into my new job and liking it a lot. I really like my team and the few issues I’ve had I’ve dealt with and they’ve improved.

    One thing – I’m dealing for the first time with an employee I just don’t like. I usually can find SOMETHING I like in everyone, but everything this employee does rubs me the wrong way. He has an attitude of smugness and superiority over everyone else on the team, over me, etc. He argues constantly (I’ve dealt with that). He uses big, academic words for no good reason except seemingly to show that he’s really smart (guess what? all of your team members are smart too!)

    He just irks me. I don’t think I’m really looking for advice, because you can’t really fix personality and I address the work stuff. But ugh. I just don’t like him.

    1. LBK*

      Can you picture him as your Dwight? Or some other obnoxious TV character if you’re not an Office fan? Not that I encourage dehumanizing your employees, but mentally reframing him as some sort of sitcom antagonist character come to life might help make him less annoying.

      2. Katie the Fed*

        Ha, yes! I’ll try that. I might have to go with more of a Ross from Friends.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Oh man, if I had to work with Ross, I’d smack him. I never realized how irritating he was until I re-watched some of the episodes a few years after it went off.

          1. TheLazyB*

            Not just irritating but hella creepy. Rachel is an idiot. She should have slapped him and gone back to Paris the second he said “unless we’re on a break!”.

            I hate Ross.

            End rant.

    3. Rehabilitating Mr Wiggles*

      Can you get him transferred out? Ie: talk him up to other managers, if anyone has an interest in him, see if you can interest him in an “opportunity”.

      (I realize that the process is probably different where you work).

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Big academic words. I actually know someone who got spoken to for this. Word choice can be used to send a negative, off-putting message. And some people use their extensive vocabulary to build walls around themselves, sort of an invisible fortress. What they feel they need protection from is a mystery to me, but I know it happens. My guess here is that privately he thinks he is not that smart. My friend got told to dial back the vocabulary, learn to communicate more simply.

      (ha! I told my friend,” The boss was right. If people do not understand your message or get turned off and fail to listen to what you are saying then you have failed to communicate with people.” In your situation, if people find his method of communicating as off-putting then he is failing to communicate with others. I cannot think of a job anywhere that this would be acceptable.)

  115. trilby*

    I am an exec assistant at a large nonprofit. My job is a bit of a fire hose and I have to manage my time carefully.

    One of the departments my boss oversees has an admin assistant who is very lovely and chummy but rather tough to work with. She will stop by my desk and talk to me endlessly; she’ll often do the same thing with my boss, who is quite polite but doesn’t need the distraction.

    The talking always starts out work related, but she really has the most remarkable way of taking 5 solid minutes to communicate one basic piece of information; in addition to being generally verbose, she has a strange halting way of speaking that makes you think she is constantly in danger of losing her train of thought. She will also work backwards in conversation, correcting herself and clarifying details that you hadn’t asked about. Listening to her speak is almost like being hypnotized. At least once every other day I will be working away and she will suddenly materialize behind me as though she had always been standing there and speaking and I somehow just noticed her.

    I’m not looking for advice or anything. I just felt like complaining!

    1. Anonymous now*

      Annoying!

      My dad has some of those mannerisms, and it seems to be what stuttering and ADHD look like together. No reason to be a distraction, though!!

  116. Brett*

    Related to my post above….
    One great thing that happened recently is that I was invited by the certification organization for my profession to their national leadership academy. I had a great week of training, and realized that I have a strong reputation for industry leadership despite being a non-manager.
    The demoralizing part… of the 60+ people attending, only 4 were not current managers and the other 3 besides me were all at the academy because they are being promoted to management roles. I had some of the most extensive leadership experience in volunteer roles, but it felt weird constantly being that one person. Meanwhile, my department continues to believe that technical staff should be decentralized and not managed by other technical staff.

  117. Cool Beans*

    I’m struggling with my loyalty to my company vs my unhappiness in my role. I keep wondering that if I leave this great up and coming company, then I am missing out on its (my?) future.

    However, I am really unhappy in my role and there is no opportunity for me to change the role internally.

    Any advice?

    1. Katie the Fed*

      Look out for yourself. Your company won’t be loyal to you in times of layoffs, restructurings, etc. Do what you gotta do for you.

      1. Cool Beans*

        Great reminder! I’ve been here for 5 years so it’s hard to imagine being somewhere else and starting over.

        1. danr*

          5 years is a good time to make the break and start anew. Think how you’ll be feeling in 10 years.

          1. Cool Beans*

            That’s a great point, danr! When I think about doing this role even for another year, I feel exhausted and defeated.

            1. Melissa*

              Then that’s a good sign that it’s time to go! If the company is really great, they’ll welcome you back if you want to return – possibly in a different role once you’ve gotten some outside experience.

    2. danr*

      If the company is truly “up and coming”, then there should be plenty of opportunities to move around. Heck, my old company, which was in existence for over 100 years had many ways to move around, many of them for non-traditional jobs. They just invented positions as they needed them. I used that willingness to move around in the company.
      If your company is already rigid in the positions that they offer, it’s probably time to start looking for a new job.

    3. LBK*

      I think maybe you should mentally separate loyalty from tenure. To me, loyalty is emotional – I feel loyal to my company because I think they have strong values, good management, good people and I’ve gotten something back from the time I’ve put in here. Tenure is a number. If I’ve got tenure without feeling loyal, that’s not a good enough reason to stay.

    4. Graciosa*

      Keep in mind that you’re not going to be a top performer in a role with which you’re unhappy – which will limit the reward potential of being at the “great up and coming company.” When you factor in your unhappiness – and the consider how many more years it will need to continue before this employer really booms (if it ever happens) – I think you may be overestimating the ratio of potential reward to actual cost (in time, happiness, and career growth and potential).

  118. wesgerrr*

    Coming in late here…. My full time job is in an office setting, and I went to school for it. I love what I do, but I hate sitting down all day. So I got a second job, working retail for a small business I worked for all through college, and I am friends with the owner. I work 17 hours a week there, and I love it since it is so different from my day job. I’m open with both jobs i.e. first job knows I can’t stay late 2 days a week, second job knows I can’t work 9-5 on weekdays. Everything sounds great, right? The owner of the second job decided that “everything has to be done the night before,” i.e. nothing will be left for the morning crew to do. The amount of closing work needed to do this job is already a ton, since it’s a resale shop and things need to look very organized and neat. Making the store spotless after a bunch of teens have run through it can take 1 hour- 1.5 hours, IF we can keep 1 person cleaning all day. Originally I was hoping she’d forget this new rule, but it’s been a few months and she hasn’t let up. It’s an issue for me and for the other employees, most who are young students. Also, the one day a week that I work with a morning crew, I have nothing to give them to do for a good 2 hours before the store gets busy (and I’ve heard from the other manager that it’s like that for the rest of the morning crews.) I am exhausted. Any suggestions for how to talk to the owner about this issue?

    1. JMegan*

      I think just say what you’ve told us here. Leave your office job out of it, because that’s not really relevant to what’s happening in the store. (Although I can see why you’d be exhausted!)

      But this…
      >> Making the store spotless after a bunch of teens have run through it can take 1 hour- 1.5 hours, IF we can keep 1 person cleaning all day.
      >>the one day a week that I work with a morning crew, I have nothing to give them to do for a good 2 hours before the store gets busy (and I’ve heard from the other manager that it’s like that for the rest of the morning crews.)

      …should resonate with her, if she’s at all reasonable. Good luck!

      1. wesgerrr*

        Thank you JMegan! I appreciate the advice (and I do try to leave my other job out of the issue!). However, the other manager did bring up the first point and the owner shut her down right away. And the owner works only with the morning crew, so she knows how dead it is. I guess there isn’t anything I can do here, except for leave if I can’t take it anymore?

        1. BRR*

          If the owner knows how dead it is and shut it down from the other manager yeah this isn’t changing, sorry.

  119. Usually lurking*

    Hello! I just wanted to thank those who helped me out a month or so ago. I had what I thought was an informal networking lunch that turned into kind of an interview, and I was unsure as to how to word my thank you note. I took your advice and mentioned I’d be interested in any openings they had in the future. After a month or so I checked in again (on their request) and now I have an interview!

    I’ve found that the dance of job searching can be as stressful and vague as dating, but this site and you wonderful commenters have made it a lot easier!

  120. EvilQueenRegina*

    Similar vein to the whole theme of managers from TV, books etc and who would make a good manager. Has anyone ever worked for anyone who actually reminded them of such a fictional character? I was definitely once managed by a Cornelius Fudge who would bury her head in the sand, didn’t investigate anything she didn’t want to hear, and ended up removed from the post.

    1. ACA*

      I worked for an Umbridge! She fired all our manager, replaced him with someone who was loyal only to her, instituted tons of new rules and regulations, and completely changed the way we did things (for the worse). She was saccharine sweet, wore girly headbands and fuzzy pink sweaters, and had cutesy kitten “motivational” posters in her office. The parallels were staggering.

    2. Sabrina*

      I worked for someone who was kind of like Single White Female. No problem lying to you about the most basic thing. Sure she didn’t stalk me and I never had to stab her with a stiletto, but still, she was crazy.

    3. Cath in Canada*

      I used to work with someone who was totally Sheldon Cooper.

      Now, a lot of people in academia will tell you the same thing. But my Sheldon can out-Sheldon their Sheldons. A couple of my friends who had their own Sheldons met my Sheldon, and they were like “yup – you win”.

      He’s actually a really good-hearted person and I miss him. I have plenty of normal colleagues to replace the normal colleagues I used to work with, but there’s only one of him!

    4. ThursdaysGeek*

      Well, he wasn’t a manager, but one of my professors in college really looked like Sam the Eagle (from the Muppets). He wasn’t blue, or an eagle, but other than that, they could have been twins.

  121. sophiabrooks*

    I am probably too late for an answer, but I am wondering how people who REALLY design brochures and handouts handle edits to the copy.

    As part of my Admin Assistant Role I create posters and brochures from a university wide template for classes and conferences in Adobe Creative Suite. It isn’t really deisn, but I have some freedom within the template to make things unique. When I am doing them for my department, I write the copy and design the brochure at the same time, and my boss usually has few edits to my writing.

    Every once and awhile I get called in to another area of the school, usually after someone has tried to create something in word or publisher, not using the template, etc to take over and “make it look good”. It is usually a last minute, drop everything type of thing, which I do because the person asking me is very high up. Generally the document I get is in word or publisher, and the people doing it have laid it out as best they can to give me an idea what they are looking for. The problem is that they tend to use line breaks and lots of spaces to make the text go where they want, which is super annoying when I paste the text into indesign and have to remove all that.

    Is that normal?

    Also, once I have laid it out, they have a lot of edits. And/or they basically rewrite the WHOLE THING once they have seen how I laid it out. I don’t really mind, but they seem really frustrated because they can’t make the changes themselves (because I use Adobe Creative Suite). Often they make the changes in their original word document, and sort of re-lay it out, but that is difficult because I can’t tell what they have changed.

    Is this normal? Is there something I am missing that would make this easier?

    1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      Couple things:

      1) if you copy their document into a text editor, like Notepad< first and then copy into In Design, you'll eliminate all the nasty word code. Word code is nasty. There may be better way to do this that an actual designer will tell you but that's the method we use for web copy.

      2) Yeah, that's normal, changes, but what's not normal is them making changes that are hard for you to see are changes. I suggest asking them to mark up a copy of your actual work, scan it and email back to you.

      1. Trixie*

        Yes, make changes to your draft. So much more time consuming and room for error trying to track down the changes in their draft. They might think this is to help you which maybe it does with a rough initial draft but beyond that encourage them to let you start the process. I use to be in your position and it is a lengthy process. One thing I learned was to keep an original draft and each round of edits in a different color pen so I knew exactly who suggested what change when.

    2. fposte*

      I don’t think there’s any real way around it, and I think it’s normal in the kind of situation you discuss. People unfamiliar with using software for design are always going to shove stuff into space visually and not deal with coding things in way that transfer easily. This is the design equivalent of herding cats. If it’s a big enough problem that you’d be willing to change, you can do a lot of stuff via the Office suite–certainly you could do the posters that way–so you could at least send them a doc that they can edit directly, but you’re still going to need to take out ugly stuff and take out ugly stuff on the edits.

      And yes, they’re always going to want to make changes. That might be an area you can change procedure on–maybe give them a PDF and ask for changes to be written on paper? But basically, I think you’re describing the design process, especially when you’re in-house support.

    3. AVP*

      My boyfriend does this professionally and his clients will hand-write notes on his drafts and either scan them or give him the hard copies (depending on whether they are in his office or not).

    4. Tris Prior*

      Yes, EVERYONE does that. Using a bazillion spaces instead of setting a tab to align text, especially. Drove me insane.

      You can always do a find/replace to eliminate all of that garbage once you import the text into INDD. That’s what I always did. Because, you will not be able to get them to stop doing it their way :)

      I ALWAYS make nondesigners either mark up a hard copy, or mark up a PDF with PDF sticky notes. If they go back to their original word file and don’t tell you what they changed then you’ve basically got to either re-lay-out the whole thing or compare the two really carefully. Both of which are a huge PITA and take way longer than it should.

      1. Dynamic Beige*

        If I could come up with a way to put a stop to all of this for the low, low price of $19.99, I would be able to retire within 6 months. Because yes, it is sadly common. They think that they are helping, but they are not. You are going to have to set the tone and tell them how you want to receive their changes. Whether that’s written on the printout, sticky notes in Acrobat, e-mail where they have detailed out what is going to change and then you are going to have to enforce that by following up. They send back a new Publisher file? You call them and explain that you can’t use that, because you can’t tell what has changed or what hasn’t changed (or just copy and paste in all the text again).

        As for the millions of spaces/no tabs — that is one of the blog posts I’m working on because it irks me, too. I have no research to back up my assumption but given how often it happens, I think that most people do not get proper training in how to use Office products so they just muddle through with what they feel “works”/gets the job done so they can move on to the next thing.

        1. sophiabrooks*

          It actually drives me crazy in word documents as well– my boss and I are thinking of just rounding up everyone in the building and giving them a lesson in tabs and indents.

          I am actually glad to hear this is common, and not because I am an Admin and not a designer!

          1. Dynamic Beige*

            At least in Word you have the Show/Hide Formatting button which will show all those “invisibles” — in PowerPoint, you don’t. I can’t begin to say how many times I have gotten a tab chart or something that seems to use tabs… except they don’t quite line up and then I realise that it’s all been done with spaces. My other favourite, people don’t know how to do a soft carriage return (Shift + Enter) to break a line and will just put in a bunch of spaces to get the line to wrap. Aaaugh!

            I get a lot of use out of the Find/Replace commands.

            1. TheLazyB*

              I love seeing the formatting. Confused the hell out of one of my colleagues though :)

            2. Tris Prior*

              oh god, spaces used to wrap text. I’m having flashbacks to my book publishing days. WHY WHY WHY

    5. Lore*

      I don’t know if this would help, but one thing we do to avoid the invisible change is password protect the Word file with track changes locked on. You’d still have to go back to Word and input the changes manually but at lead you’d see them. But this would require them to work in a copy of the file that you’d sent back to them and not their original. If that fails, Word’s compare documents features might help. You’d get some garbage where format changes would track but should also capture copy changes.

    6. Delyssia*

      Yes, it’s normal for the text you pull in to have a lot of extraneous crap. One really basic thing, which you may already have done, if your templates have decent paragraph and character styles, make sure you’ve got your preferences set to not pull any formatting in when you paste in text from sources other than InDesign. To get rid of the extra spaces, there’s a GREP search that is your friend. There’s also a handy GREP search to change multiple paragraph breaks into just one. I usually get rid of extraneous line/paragraph breaks with a traditional find/replace a paragraph at a time (to maintain the actual paragraph breaks, since typically line breaks turn into paragraph breaks when pulled into INDD).

      At my workplace, we periodically discuss the possibility of an InCopy workflow, but we’ve never actually implemented it. The idea of that is that folks who only need to edit text can open a version of the file with InCopy, and they can make text edits directly, but that’s it (no manipulating graphics, adjusting text boxes, etc.). The problem is that you need to get the InCopy licenses for the people who need editing capability, and that’s always been the stumbling block at my job.

      So unless you can get your employer to invest in numerous InCopy licenses, you need to push for edits to come via mark-ups (hard copy or PDF) or using track changes in Word. (Ideally, if you’re in a position to do so, refuse to take changes via their original Word document.) Even with track changes, if you’ve got paragraphs of text that they are substantially rewriting, it’s sometimes worth taking a few minutes to copy the text out of InDesign and paste it into Word, so you can give them clean text to edit (without their garbage formatting). Bonus: if you give them clean text to edit, you can make sure to turn on track changes before giving it to them.

      Apparently, I have many thoughts on this topic. I hope some of this is at least somewhat helpful!

    7. wannabephoenix*

      I use the find Grep drop down menu to remove spaces and carriage returns. When I send proofs out, I use acrobat extended reader save as so the client can type their changes directly on the pdf via comments. They only need the Reader version.

    8. Isben Takes Tea*

      I work in publishing, and it continually blows me away how everyone insists on rewriting carefully edited copy once it’s flowed into a design (I’m thinking covers specifically). Every. Single. Time.

      I’m also the Microsoft Word Formatting Genius (TM) of the office, and I find it amazing that people graduated from college without knowing how to use a bullet list.

      Anyway, yes, it’s all completely normal. You have been identified as Competent, and may heaven help you.

      (Note: These are precisely the types of skills that you should highlight in your resume/cover letter in the future, even if you’re not technically a “designer.” You take initiative and are Competent.)

    9. Rehabilitating Mr Wiggles*

      *grin* It’s good to know the Adobe tools! And as Isben mentions, you should definitely mention your abilities on your resume. And it sounds like you’ve already developed a bit of a reputation for being the Go To person for this kind of work: at the last minute, you drop everything, jump in, and save some VIP’s bacon. I do hope that these people are informing your boss of the wonderful things you do for them. And it sounds like you might be building up a nice network of upper-level contacts.

      Just some random thoughts.

  122. Allison*

    Does anyone else have a hard time getting stuff done when people are congregating behind them to discuss a problem? When the people who normally sit behind me talk, it’s fine. When people huddle around one of the desks behind me to talk through an issue, I can’t do anything. I’m very much aware that people who aren’t normally behind me are behind me, and I never know if they’re looking at my screen, and I want them to see me being productive but their talking behind me is so disruptive I can’t focus. Is that weird?

    I realize they need to do it sometimes, if they can’t grab a conference room or maybe didn’t anticipate such a lengthy discussion, so it’s not like I’m gonna set out to make them stop, I just find it very irritating.

    1. danr*

      If they’re concentrating on a screen or desk in back of you, they’re ignoring you. For all they know, you don’t exist. However, if it gets a bit loud, you certainly can turn around and ask them to hold it down. I’ve been on both sides of the problem, and yes, discussions do get carried away some times.

    2. LBK*

      Do you have a puzzle solving impulse? I have one so any time I overhear a conversation about an issue I think I might have any insight into, it’s really hard for me to avoid chiming in, never mind ignoring the conversation altogether. The only way I’ve broken it is by committing myself to only contributing if I hear something that I know is wildly incorrect, and to an extent that also helps me tune out the conversation as a whole (if I know it’s something the people discussing will be able to figure out on their own).

      1. Katie the Fed*

        Puzzle solving impulse! I didn’t know that was a thing. I mayyyyyy have suggested a few sudoku hints to the person sitting next to me today who was doing a sudoku. Oops.

      2. Beezus*

        I have this, so bad. I’m much better than I used to be at not offering unsolicited input, but I still struggle to focus on something else.

      3. afiendishthingy*

        I often wear headphones when I really need to focus because I find it so hard to curb my impulse to contribute my invaluable insights to every conversation, work-related or otherwise, in the room. You know, insights like “‘Formatting tables in Word SUCKS” or “I hate when I accidentally laminate a hair”or “Oh my god did you see that video of the dog and the cheetah who are friends?” It’s definitely a hardship for my coworkers when I’m too busy to participate in their conversations.

  123. Cypress Rose*

    I am currently looking for a new job, however I have been at the same place for 15 years. I have only had 2 bosses. The first one still works for the company. I am sure if I speak to her she will be discreet. But how can a potential employer check my employment? Who am I supposed to use as references?

    Also in the job that I am in, I wear many hats, and I know if I list everything that I do that it would be overwhelming, but I don’t want to have all of my knowledge/responsibilities unmentioned. I’m in a pickle.

    1. CAA*

      References: first, you don’t have to deal with this until you are close to getting an offer. Then look for other senior people who have left the company — your managers’ manager; managers of other departments; senior colleagues who know your work; etc. If a reference checker specifically asks for someone who has supervised you, then you say “I don’t want my current employer to know I am looking for a new job, but I would be happy to give you references from there once we’ve agreed on an offer.”

      Resume: since you have worked at the same place for a long time, probably your resume is only going to cover that 15-year period. This gives you a lot of room to list multiple jobs under the same company and show that you’ve progressively gained knowledge and taken on more responsibility. You can list each group of responsibilities under an appropriate heading with dates. It’s ok if the dates overlap.

      1. Kyrielle*

        This. And if it’s all one title or a sequence of titles…own the multiple things you were doing. I had a sequence of technical titles and just tried to add the new duties under each title rather than recapping everything. It seems to have worked. :)

    2. MsM*

      Can you ask any current or former coworkers at a senior level? Clients, if you work with any?

      As for listing, pick the things that are most relevant to the job application, or the stuff that shows off your biggest accomplishments, or that capture the stuff you spend most of your time on (except perhaps for the more tedious administrative details). You can always put some of your expertise in the “skills” section, or expand in the cover letter and interview.

      1. BRR*

        Yes to your second paragraph. You don’t need to list everything. Something don’t help your candidacy.

  124. nona*

    My manager has forgotten about my review.

    I’ll do it for her: “Your work’s good. By the way, you’re getting more of it, but no more hours and no raise. :)”

  125. AvonLady Barksdale*

    Thanks to everyone who helped talk me down last week! I was dealing with a situation where I’d been “spoken to” about my poor work performance, 30 days were about to pass, and I saw a meeting scheduled on the public calendar to discuss me and my performance.

    As it turns out, not only was I right in that I had nothing to worry about, but my boss cancelled the meeting altogether. He pulled me aside on Monday to thank me for taking all of our conversations to heart (he wasn’t the one who had the issues with me, it was the CEO). Apparently, I’m doing exceptionally well on my current project. I told him I need more to do, and there are definite plans to give me more clients and more projects.

    Part of me really wanted to say, “This is how it would have been if I hadn’t been tossed into an impossible situation,” but… I think he gets that. I’m just glad I’ve had a chance to prove myself and that this project has gone so damn swimmingly (as I say that, I spit, mutter Yiddish anti-evil-eye curses and run three times in a circle).

    I also told the boss that putting the meeting on the calendar like that was NOT COOL (he didn’t do it– HR did, so he spoke to her).

    Pretty good work week all around, really.

    2. danr*

      Glad things are working out for you now. AAM is a great place to ask the questions that are running through your head. And most times, we get better answers.

  126. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

    Chicken quit story.

    New hire, fourth day in. She was the only person who started that week so her training was one on one with her manager for those four days. As far as I know, she was doing fine in training. New hire was just out of college, with no experience beyond a few internships and waiting tables for (the equivalent of but not the same actual restaurant) Bob Evans.

    Relevant background: our in house HR director is on disability so her duties are being covered remotely by her assistant in Florida.

    Saying NOTHING to who her manager who had worked with her personally four days running, or the manager’s boss or anybody in the actual building or anybody she had actually met, she sent this email at 5:31 pm:

    _______________________________

    HR Person Name,

    I tried calling you but it went into voicemail both times, so I am emailing you. I am a new hire that started last Monday. Unfortunately this position is not a good fit for me and today was my last day. I want to thank you for this opportunity and please let me know that you got this email.

    Thank you,
    Henny Penny

    _______________________________

    No idea. We just rolled our eyes but, no idea. I think the last time something like that happened was 10 years ago when we lost one of our temps when we moved the building, as in she never showed up for work again. Also one time somebody didn’t come back from lunch, but eons ago. 20 years ago I had somebody slip a note under the door during the weekend.

    Fun fact: when I googled her, she’d already updated her Linked In with her job title and job description with us and linked to our company so she’s the fastest Linked In updater ever along with stealthiest job quitter.

    1. AnotherFed*

      Wow! That’s both pretty frustrating and kind of funny due to sheer ridiculousness! That’s got to be a record for driving off a new hire…

      1. AnotherFed*

        Actually, the more I think about it, the more weird it seems. Did anybody call her to make sure she’s just a flake and not that there’s something crazy going on, like the AAM where someone’s spouse resigned for them?

        1. The Cosmic Avenger*

          Well, in that case they would just come in to work/training on the next business day, wouldn’t they?

      2. EvilQueenRegina*

        We had someone quit after 2 days in similar circumstances. Her replacement is at the six month mark but is having conversations in the middle of the open plan office about applying for other jobs. Let’s just say we call that job the Defence Against the Dark Arts job for a reason.

    2. CAA*

      I had a contractor earlier this summer who just abandoned the job after a week. First time that’s ever happened to me, and it was a very senior guy with lots of experience. Never did find out why, and the staffing agency we hired him from couldn’t reach him either.

      1. Camellia*

        In those situations I always wonder if something bad happened to the person. Unfortunately, just a few months ago it happened in my department. After three days of no-show, HR asked the police for a well-check visit and the person, who lived alone, had died at home. So I hope your contractor was just off to greener pastures.

    3. Kyrielle*

      Wow. Just, wow.

      I get the LinkedIn part (I updated mine the evening of my first day at $NewJob), but the ‘things seemed fine and then boom, quit’ is weird, and the stealth ‘quit by email’ is bizarre.

    4. Traveler*

      I’d blame this on the no experience. They probably didn’t fully appreciate the needs of the job, and when they got there it was too much. They also probably didn’t know how to communicate their frustrations and remained silent because of it.

      1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        Sure. It would have been really shocking if it had been somebody with real job experience and, retrospect, if you’re that shy, you weren’t a good match to begin with.

        We do a fair amount of first job people though, and we’ve not run into this. We’ve probably had people leave early on (nothing recent comes to mind), but they don’t just slip out the door at the end of the day and email florida. The manager was rightfully pissed to have spent four days with her without even an “I”m sorry, gotta go” to her face.

    6. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      MYSTERY SOLVED.

      I just checked her Linked In again. (One day later.)

      It’s now updated with an entirely different job at another company, start date July 2015, along with a detailed job description.

      That is really chicken shit quit isn’t it? Obviously another job offer came in and she decide to quit us and take that one. Do what you need to do but come on, do it face to face.

      3. The IT Manager*

        I was going to suggest that she got another job offer right after starting at Wakeen’s.

      4. BRR*

        I knew someone who did it but after a month or two. On their linkedin they actually put their short job.

    7. anon colleague*

      A guy recently hired at my organisation left after about a week and a half.
      He’d had a bunch of appointments scheduled with potential clients (which is part of the job). He was on the July schedule for several shifts. Simply did not show up for his shift one day — didn’t respond to anyone’s calls or texts all day. When a supervisor finally reached him, he said he was quitting. He gave a reason but it sounded lame and unrealistic; I reckon he’d simply gotten another gig. But that happens. Whatever the reason, at least communicate with people. Jeeeeez.
      I can’t grasp that kind of disrespect and lack of professionalism. And not giving a damn about burning bridges.

    8. EvilQueenRegina*

      When I first started at The Real Office (2 jobs ago) I replaced someone who had walked out one day, didn’t show up the next, left her jacket behind, eventually someone called her agency who said she had a new job. Popular rumour at the time was the office ghost (it even had a name – Edgar) had scared her off.

  127. KS*

    Today has just been one of those days. I’m graduated from college May 2014 and have been looking for a job ever since. I’ve worked in a Temp position and for my family business but it’s just not want I want to do for the rest of my life. Lately, I can’t stand going to work there. I have customers constantly asking if I’m looking for a job, why I don’t have one, how they know a recent grad who got a job offer in school making $50k. It’s so frustrating. I don’t ask for their advice but they continue to give it and it’s honestly making me upset! On top of that, I have my parents on my case too. My mom hates her job but does it for the salary and benefits. I don’t want to be like her and I feel like they don’t understand. I want to habe a job I enjoy.

    Ugh I guess I just wanted to rant today. Is it ever going to get better? I feel like people don’t understand how hard job searching really is.

    1. Amber Rose*

      It gets better. I promise. Some of us just take longer.

      I was unemployed for several months after graduation before taking a job counting inventory. It took two more jobs and 3 years to get to a job I sincerely enjoy that pays pretty well. Be patient with yourself too.

    2. Relosa*

      December 2012 graduate here. Unemployed – I have $7 to my name. All my friends are getting amazing jobs and insanely fast turnaround and skyrocketing in their careers, starting families, buying cars, etc.

      One of the things I did was throw everything to the wind and moved to where I wanted to be – my living standard is even lower than it was before, but I know I’d be even more miserable if I hadn’t moved when I did.

      I absolutely promise you aren’t alone. You’re not crazy – job hunting is incredibly difficult and isn’t going to get easier. I’m having a rough week too.

    3. Nobody*

      It took me 17 months to get a full-time job after I graduated from college, so I totally get the frustration. You just have to keep applying, and eventually, you’ll find something. Once you do, you’ll be able to get some experience under your belt that will help you qualify for better jobs. Don’t give up!

    4. afiendishthingy*

      this probably isn’t too encouraging, but I graduated from college in 06 and didn’t make more than 25k until last year. Hopped around a bit for the first few years, figured out a career path that I liked in 2009, worked full time low level jobs in that field for several years, eventually got masters/professional certification while working and now I have a really rewarding and challenging job that pays more than twice what I used to make. Those first few years can be pretty crappy, especially when you have friends who seem to be jumping way ahead of you on the ladder, but plenty of people struggle but eventually find their way. Good luck!

    1. Treena*

      What’s the reason? Can you cite it? How far away is the interview? It becomes incrementally more rude the closer you get, so email them asap.

    2. Dasha*

      If it is far enough in advance and you are 100% sure you don’t want the job maybe you could say something like, “I apologize but I’m not going to be able to meet with you for our interview scheduled for next Friday. I wish you the best in your search and again my apologies for any inconvenience on your behalf.”

    3. K*

      Absolutely, just be polite and apologetic about it, of course. If you already know you don’t want the job, then there’s no need to waste both your and the interviewer’s time.

    4. BRR*

      Thank you for considering me for the teapot analyst role. At this time I have decided to pursue other opportunities and am withdrawing my application. I wish you the best of luck in filling this position.

  129. Carrie in Scotland*

    So this week wheels are being sit in motion for my dept to try and get a new “me” despite the hiring freeze that’s on and try to make an exceptional case for the post. I was asked for my thoughts on my role. I gave them. Apparently, my line manager was saying “no” to other people and saying I was too busy to help them (my current role is spread out over the dept). I was like I have never been THAT busy. Rage. Apparently, they are going to try and get a o.5 (it’s full time just now and it doesn’t need to be)

  130. Seashell*

    Well I asked for a raise yesterday and my boss talked to our director this morning who has already brought it up to the guy above HER and I’m freaked out! I guess this is a good thing because they are taking me seriously but also makes me feel weird?? Like people don’t do this, maybe? I’m at an association so we do things differently. Prepping a list of reasons why I feel like I deserve one…

    1. fposte*

      Sounds like a pretty standard progression to me. Good for you for asking! (Even at associations, you’re allowed to ask for more money. It’s not like people freeze your rent and food costs because of where you work.)

    2. Ann O'Nemity*

      I’m sure every manager is different, but I tend to handle raise requests as quickly as I can. If I’m in support but need approval, I’ll escalate it up the chain as quickly as I can. And this is because I have a fear that an employee who asks for a raise may start – or already is – looking at other jobs.

  131. Pantaloons!*

    I recently came into a middle management role of Assistant Director of Marketing replacing an employee who had left the company. About 7 months into my tenure, the CEO decided that we really needed was another Director (B) in addition to the original Director (A) and myself. Now we find ourselves with a 3-tier departmental management structure. To make matters more complicated, Director A is insecure about her standing in the organization, and is now making certain moves trying to assert her position and retain some “power” effectively undermining whatever sphere of executive decision making my position may have had in the previous 2-person structure. I have brought this up with the CEO and clarified my role and expectations for delivery within the organization, and even HR made the necessary adjustments to clear this up. But the problem lies with the people we manage. Director A has in several occasions jumped over my areas of responsibility and made decisions that should have come my way before implementing them. I’ve talked to her about this, and it is something that she just doesn’t seem to remember when push comes to shove. So my question is: what are my options here in term of asserting ownership in the areas I’m supposed to be responsible for? It is increasingly frustrating to see things we’ve discussed go into one ear and fly out of the other one!

    For what it’s worth, I constantly follow the chain of command and keeping Directors A & B in the loop of what I’m working on. So it’s not like I’m not leading by example. I have also begun micromanaging Director A from below, making sure I get updates on pending issues several times a week since she seems to forget to loop me into conversations I should be part of.

    1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      Geeze, too many head chefs in the kitchen.

      I don’t have any advice other than trying to keep everybody focused on the mission, turning out great work that sells things. Since marketing is usually project based, can you ask Director A for ownership based on either projects or areas?

  132. Macedon*

    Was curious to hear from people who’ve explored this particular shade of masochism: CFA while working full-time – beast or bearable?

    1. it happens*

      I did it while working 60 hours a week (it was M&A, the hours are real) – just lost all of my weekends for the first five months of the year for three years. The key was to start in January and work through it steadily – cramming is not a good option. I purchased one of the study guides as well to help put everything in context. I also took three days vacation before each exam to do full-on review (with a daily movie break, because, hey, the brain needs to process.)
      Note – I did it when all the exams were essay and administered only in May, so, YMMV
      Good luck!

  133. Ann O'Nemity*

    My coworker walks to/from work. She changes upon arrival. Although I haven’t noticed an issue with her body odor, I have noticed that her office is increasingly smelling like gym shoes, undoubtedly because she’s storing her sweaty stuff in there all day. She’s already got a basic nylon gym bag but it’s not helping.

    Is there some odorless way to store sweaty clothes/shoes in your office? I’m not really comfortable saying, “your office stinks; do something about it” but I think I could recommend a product or solution, especially if I put it as, “hey, I got this neat, new product for storing my gym clothes.”

    1. ExceptionToTheRule*

      For a lot of reasons, I keep what is essential an odor eater on my desk. I use “smells begone” odor absorbing gel from Bed Bath & Beyond. A single container costs about $5 and lasts over 90 days so it’s not too big of an investment.

    2. Anonsie*

      Not sure if this would work for the intended purpose here but I have a bunch of charcoal packets for absorbing odor that I put in my luggage when traveling. I stick one in each show that goes in m suitcase and one in each packing cube, then migrate them all to whatever cube ends up containing my dirty clothes while I’m traveling.

    3. AnotherFed*

      Shoes are usually the biggest culprit on smells (the clothes presumably get taken home and washed regularly). I use the Sneaker Ball deodorizers in my sneakers and cleats, and they tend to do pretty well at preventing gym stink from taking over my sports bag or car. If the office is already a little smelly, she might need to combine them with another odor eater/deodorizer to get the smell out and prevent it from coming back.

  134. Relosa*

    I randomly sent off a couple resumes to some postings on HireArt today. Meh survival jobs, but at least in things I like to do and I am good at (customer retention and office management). I just got an invitation for first-round online interviewing.

    Has anyone used HireArt before? Either as an employer or employee?

  135. wannabephoenix*

    Please help with the search function. There was an article or comment, not sure which, that dealt with someone who had a freelance business and stopped taking calls and finishing work for reasons. They then wanted to start back up because they were in a better place to do so. They were asking what to say to past clients they wanted to reconnect with.
    I tried words like connect, freelance, start up etc. and I can’t find that article or comment.
    Thank you
    (yep another question from me- sorry- after this week I won’t be posting ’cause awful hours and brutal work shift. This is the only opportunity I have so I took it, again apologies)

    1. fposte*

      Do you remember *when* you read it? That might help weed some possibilities out. Also, do you remember if Alison gave a response at all? If she did, it’s likelier to have been an actual post than a comment on a post.

      1. Anonsie*

        I think I remember this one. From this year, was a posted letter and not a comment I think.

  136. Anonsie*

    I don’t know what’s up with this week but people have been actin crazy around here. Anyone else?

    First I mentioned I was going to have to talk to one of our interns about a bad habit they’d picked up and my boss suggested, not one but three times in a two minute span, that he only did it because he wanted to talk to me because I’m cute. “Oh he just wants to see you because you’re a young cute thing.” I let a couple beats drop after the first one and said I didn’t think that was it and moved on but she kept rebutting me with that o_____o

    Then yesterday one of the young women in another department said she was feeling nauseous to her group, and one of the women asked her if she was pregnant. Which I know because she then also came and told everyone about it later and then several people speculated on whether or not this other woman could be pregnant. I said she shouldn’t ask people things like that and everyone else told me I was being silly and it’s a perfectly ok thing to ask and then gossip about, silly Anonsie.

    I feel like I’m taking crazy pills this week

    1. wannabephoenix*

      Sounds like something was slipped into the watercooler!, Sympathy and support for you! Hope your next week will be better!

    2. Thinking out loud*

      Ugh. First situation, I’d say (without smiling), “No one I work with should be trying to get my attention – my work and my social life are very separate, and they’ll always stay that way.”

      Second situation: if you’re willing, I’d say, “It seems like a little thing to you, but I know women who’ve had trouble conceiving, and that question would have hurt them very much. Please try to avoid it in the future.”

  137. Sasha*

    What are alternatives to ‘sounds good’ when a boss gives you a task to do? It’s a pretty casual office,but this is usually over IM/email

    sounds good
    alright
    will do
    sounds like a plan

    3. AnotherFed*

      “Will do” if it’s a new task or “understood” if it’s amplifying/reminding from the boss or a coworker asking for something.

    5. Rehabilitating Mr Wiggles*

      Depending on the task and the boss:

      I’ll keep you informed.
      Yes, Master.
      As you wish, so shall it be.
      I should have it by COB tomorrow.

      Call me a kiss-ass if you want, but if it’s a small-ish task that I can handle in 15-30 minutes, sometimes I’ll do it and just respond

      Done.

  138. Sy*

    here’s my situation:

    Last winter I worked a seasonal customer support job that ended in April. For the last 2-3 months my boss kept promising me a permanent job in another department that they were going to create, and then it didn’t pan out. They told me it was a budgeting issue and they loved me but they couldn’t offer me the position at that time. They also didn’t hire me for any other permanent position in any other departments, and they did hire several of my coworkers that were also seasonal. Nothing was guaranteed though and while I was bummed that they didn’t have it in the budget, I understood.

    A month or so ago they contacted me to let me know they were hiring in another department, a lateral move to the department I was working but it was a full time job with benefits. They said they were giving me a heads up before they posted the job and they’d like to bring me in for an interview that week. They didn’t, and a week later they apologized that they weren’t quite ready to hire yet, but would contact me when it was up.

    A few weeks later they did post the job, and they did contact me. I applied the same day and had a phone interview scheduled for this afternoon. An hour before the interview though, the manager emailed me to let me know that the other resumes he was receiving were for people with much more experience in one aspect of the job, but they were posting another seasonal customer support position and would I like to apply to that instead? This job is doing exactly what I did before, again without any benefits.

    Does this seem like too many false promises/back and forth to you or is this how normal companies work? My new managers would be people that were my coworkers last year so that’s a little awkward/humiliating.

    1. fposte*

      It seems disappointing but plausible; I don’t see any promises beyond contact, and they seem to have followed through on that, so nothing false there. They like you enough to stay in touch (it’s really not likely they’d bother unless they genuinely were interested, because it’s kind of a pain to remember to do), but they found out you aren’t the best buy in the world for their money when they could get somebody with more experience.

      I wouldn’t wait around for a permanent hire from them and would look for other opportunities, but if you’ve liked working there and didn’t have something else, I’d take the seasonal job. I don’t think the former co-worker as manager thing is humiliating, since people move around all the time, and it doesn’t even have to be awkward–the smoother you are about it, the smoother it’s likely to go.

      Sorry it hasn’t worked out as you hoped there; good luck finding something that works better for you.

    2. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      They seem to like you and are doing a half way decent job of looking out for you. The other half is the part where you haven’t gotten full time perm employment out of them which, as fposte says, is disappointing.

    3. Rehabilitating Mr Wiggles*

      I think what happens sometimes is that your boss or whoever likes you and sincerely wants to get you hired or whatever, but when it comes down to reality, they don’t have the horsepower to make it happen. They’re not intentionally trying to screw you over, but when they tell you “I want to bring you on full-time in August” (or whatever), they’re trying to make you happy, but they’re also trying to make themselves seem like Movers and Shakers. In effect, they’re deluding themselves and dragging you along.

      It’s possible that they might come through for you. But whenever they tell you they’re going to make something happen for you, you should adjust your expectations accordingly.

  139. anon for this*

    How do you tell a new person “the person who took it upon himherself to ‘mentor’ you on our office culture and rules almost got himherself fired because of hisher piss poor attitude and heshe created too much drama” without actually saying it because you know if it got back to himher that would result in drama squared? (We’re all hourly with no WFH option, if it matters.)

    1. fposte*

      “We try to be a friendly bunch, but it’s best to rely on the manager for official information.”

    2. Nobody*

      Something similar happened in my department… The a-hole drama monger nobody can stand decided to take the new employee under his wing and show her the ropes. Everybody was cringing because we were afraid he would set a bad example for the new employee, but nobody wanted to say anything because we didn’t want to start more drama.

      It turns out that it didn’t take the new employee long to figure out that this guy was bad news and distance herself from him.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      “Be careful whose advice you take. If you get stuck on something the best person to ask is the boss because she is the one who does your eval.”

  140. BananaPants*

    So. Good news – after close to a year of being out of work, my husband received and accepted a job offer. The offer is contingent on a background check and drug test (they already checked references immediately before making the offer). He authorized the background check yesterday and went this morning for his drug test. We expect both to come back totally clean but I’m still irrationally worried that somehow SOMETHING will go wrong and the offer will be retracted.
    Someone reassure me that someone who doesn’t use illegal drugs, has no criminal record of any kind, didn’t lie on his resume and job application, and has decent but not stellar credit is going to pass these pre-employment checks? We had to start the process of getting our kids back into child care and have told various family and friends so it would be a total nightmare for this to fall apart.

    2. BananaPants*

      This is a formal job offer, in writing. He wasn’t sure if the background check included a credit report as well (he has one minor ding – a late credit card payment in 2009 – but the rest of the report is totally clean including our mortgage and his two open credit lines). He does take two regular prescriptions and took Sudafed around a week and a half ago for a cold, and the fact that the lab didn’t ask him for a list of meds taken in the last month was unusual compared to every other pre-employment drug test he’s taken.

      He thinks I’m borrowing trouble and am stressing for nothing. It’s just that there’s SO much riding on this…

      1. Rebecca*

        I think half the country had a late credit card payment in 2009! That was 6 years ago, and I can’t imagine any job rejecting someone for 1 late payment that occurred 6 years ago, especially if the pattern hasn’t repeated.

        Good luck, and try not to worry, but I know it’s really hard! Make sure to update us!

    4. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      Ah, it’s okay to be a nervous wreck. You guys have been through so much. Don’t feel bad about it on top of being a nervous wreck. :-)

      This is going to work out. But it’s not irrational to be a bit basket casey until the final seal is placed.

    5. cuppa*

      I’ve never used an illegal drug in my life and I always get nervous, too. You never know where those poppy seeds are! :)
      The late cc payment shouldn’t be an issue (stranger things have happened); I used to run employment screens for a major financial services company and this wouldn’t have been an issue at all (especially just one five years ago).
      Good luck!!

    6. Not So NewReader*

      It’s going to be okay. I remember my husband going through this and he walked right through it, no problems. Your hubby will walk right through it, too.

  141. Sara*

    Second interview on Monday for a job that, to be completely honest, I’m not totally sure I want to take. Pros: It’s a step up from my current responsibilities; it’s a 25% pay increase over what I make now; I liked the hiring manager (who would be my boss); and it is free from some of the more annoying bureaucratic constraints of my field. Cons: Even with that step up in pay, it still pays about 25% below market value, and they were clear that there’s no room for negotiation; it’s a very different sort of work environment from the one I’m currently in and frankly some of those differences stress me out a little bit.

    I’m anxious because even though we’re only halfway through the hiring season in my field, I’ve had numerous interviews with absolutely no bites, and the stress and anxiety of job-hunting are really starting to get to me.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Can you think of some good questions to ask that might help to lift some of your concerns about the difference in the new job?

  142. Professionalism help wanted!*

    Hi AAM crew,

    I had my first quarterly performance review with my project team. They had some positive things to say but a lot of it was (prettied-up) negative revolving around my tendency to relax into too-informal conversation style way too often. I just graduated last year and have been at NewJob for a while, and I am well aware of my inability to judge how formal or casual I should be in a situation.

    I’m great at giving presentations or being professional/mature when I’m consciously “on,” but over time I tend to relax too much as my guard lets down. Clearly this is an issue because I have been banished (I’m being dramatic a bit here, but it feels like jail) from being client-facing for a little while until I can figure this out. I need to determine how to always be able to communicate and speak like a fully professional adult and not like an eighteen year old straight out of a YouTube channel, and quickly. It’s easy to say, “just be aware of what comes out of your mouth 100% of the time!” and my project team is helping me set up some coaching time to work through it, but I’m really hoping for some books, blogs, something I can read on my own time. It’s not that I feel like I’m too young (like here: https://www.askamanager.org/2013/07/ask-the-readers-how-do-you-start-feeling-more-like-an-adult-when-youre-still-pretty-young.html) or like I do unprofessional things (like going out drinking during lunch or partying on business trips, oh no way), it’s more that if we were equating speaking style to dressing style, I should be wearing a suit all the time but sometimes I forget my heels and wear flip-flops instead (I don’t think about what I’m going to say and I say something stupid, or I say “Ohmigod!” out loud in front of a client, or I react too quickly to something when I should really just be quiet). Help!!!

    Side note — this is exacerbated by my own personal hangup from OldJob; that is, I was a contractor and every single performance-related conversation was followed up by, “and don’t forget, you’re a contractor so we can terminate you whenever we want.” So it’s hopefully understandable I pretty much don’t like talking about performance, but I try to accept feedback gracefully.

    1. Katie the Fed*

      Wow, that’s actually really useful feedback they gave you! I’m dealing with a direct report who has a similar issue, and I’m struggling with how to address it.

      The good news is they want to work with you on it.

      Can you tell when you’re making that shift of being too casual? Like, are you self-aware in the moment or do you just realize it later? It sounds like you’re getting a little excited, and maybe your mind starts racing and you get ahead of yourself and start blurting things out without thinking? In that case, I would make an effort to really try to listen to what the other party is saying, and count to 2 before reacting or commenting. I think slowing down would make a big impact.

      You might also need to train yourself to stop using hedging or pausing language, like “like” “um” etc. That just takes practice and REALLY listening to yourself as you speak. If you’re close to some colleagues you could do a game of a coin jar – every time you say one of those words you have to put a coin in a jar. They could have their own things.

      1. Professionalism help wanted!*

        Yes, it’s great feedback. I’m appreciative that they don’t want to stand by while I run myself into the ground–not ideal. I can’t feel that shift happen which I think is the problem. I’m always doing my best to listen as well as I can, thankfully I don’t always jump in with stuff, but the feedback also touched on “you make jokes a lot when you definitely don’t need to, just stay quiet.” Oh hello, defense mechanism!

        In the end it comes down to we talk a lot about our company being a “family” (I don’t like that, you don’t lay off your family!) and I think I took that to mean that casual-ness was okay. So, I just need to not.

    2. BRR*

      It seems like you took it well and want to improve. Can you ask them to point it out when you do it or follow up after meeting by asking someone?

      1. Professionalism help wanted!*

        That is part of the plan, that after each meeting my team will tell me how I did and I have to tell them how they did. It’s a great idea!

    3. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      I’ll echo Katie. I’m envious that your bosses were able to give you such great feedback, and forthrightly. I want to be like them.

      I’ve had to change my own style over the years. I got some direct feedback which was essentially, “you talk too much”. I did this in difficult situations, like meeting with an unhappy employee. If the atmosphere was uncomfortable, I filled the silence and only god knows what was going to come out of my mouth next.

      So I had to practice silences and thinking through anything I said before I said it in any uncomfortable situation.

      Eventually this became my “natural” way of doing things.

      You can do this.

      1. Professionalism help wanted!*

        To be fair, they’re not my bosses–we have a flat organization so the CEO is my boss, but some of this feedback definitely trickled down from the CEO, I know because they mentioned things I’ve done in those meetings that I can remember specifically. This particular performance review is like 360 feedback–they ask everyone in the company how I’m doing. No pressure.

        I also talk too much! I am unbelievably uncomfortable in silence. Hate it. Sometimes I’m really good about thinking through but every once in a while I generally suck and the result isn’t pretty. I just need to be more conscious of asking myself, “is this a value add?” and if the answer is no, then keep my mouth shut!

      1. Professionalism help wanted!*

        I have done this and you’re so right, it’s cringe-inducing! I had to do it for a communications seminar. Tough part is that when I’m aware I’m being watched then I’m pretty good. I did learn, though, that I move my hands way too much and to control that. That became second nature eventually.

    5. catsAreCool*

      Toastmasters is good for helping get rid of um’s and “you know”‘s in your speech. It might be good for helping formalize your speech too, at least if you ask for help with it.

      1. Professionalism help wanted!*

        You know, I knew someone at OldJob who did this. I think that’s a great idea!

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Do you get tired and slip when you are tired?

      I try to copy the tone/pacing/etc of the person in front of me. (Provided they are not screaming out words at 90mph.) When I feel myself starting to fatigue my habit of trying to mirror the people around me helps me to stay on track.

      Sometimes doing something to make myself physically uncomfortable, reminds me to stay in the game. This could be as simple as not putting my pen down even though I am finished writing.

      Toastmasters might help. It could be that you just need to get used to the sound of your professional voice vs your usual voice. You probably will not have to do it for very long.

      1. Professionalism help wanted!*

        That’s brilliant. I love that idea, thank you. Fatigue, I don’t know if that impacts it as much as, my brain is trying to focus on too many things and loses track. Mirroring style is great, do you find that still works over the phone? Not being client facing anymore that’s where all my meetings are going to be.

    7. Aspiring*

      Is there anyone in your organization that you look up to in a leadership position that you could try to mimic your behavior from? Think of the concept of “dressing for the job you want, not the one you have,” and apply it to “communicate like you would in the job you want, not the job you have.” How far up the chain are you hoping to go? Look at someone in that level and observe how they talk to others, what types of things they say and talk about, how professional they are and how much of the time. It sounds like you might be more of a people-oriented person than a task-oriented person, so it’s important to remember that even when you’re getting “comfortable” you still have to maintain your professionalism. There is a time and place for everything, so if you need that relaxed type of communication, be more selective of who you communicate like that with – not just everyone, and if needed, invite them to happy hour after you clock out for the day or use your lunch hour and break times to let loose, but when you’re on the clock, be more cognizant of the impression you’re giving off. You can be relaxed and still maintain your professionalism. You just have to find the right balance.

  143. TheLazyB*

    I got my result for the Open University course in Public Health that I’ve been doing- a 2:1 :) I guess this is a B in American?M I’m happy with it anyway, it’s what I hoped but better than I expected :) second highest mark for my exams able work, which is marked much more strictly, and nice comments on it. Yay me!

    Oh btw they didn’t want to let me register on it as I hadn’t studied recently and it was a final year undergrad course (level 3). And I was working part time and looking after my son the rest of the time :)

    Very proud!

    1. AnnaM*

      I’ve studied with the OU at various times over the last 20 years and found the materials for the courses were excellent. I know it takes a higher percentage to gain a 2:1 than for other universities and requires a high level of understanding so you’re right to be proud. Well done – what do you hope to do next?

  144. Annonish*

    So, at work I recently learned that one of my coworkers made some comments to not one, but several female coworkers that made them so uncomfortable that they were uneasy being alone with this guy. For instance, he approached one and asked if she had ever dated a coworker. When she said “Yes. And it was a horrible idea,” he replied with “did you let him see down there?” She said “I’m not going to answer that” and he continued questioning her. Eventually, it came out that he’d been making similar comments to a number of female coworkers during various shifts, always without management present and with only them or almost only them in the building. He seems to wait until others won’t be around.

    In addition, he came up behind one of our female supervisors at a staff meeting and put his arms around her, hugging her. He continued to try to hug her on subsequent incidents, despite her telling him not to. He has never tried to hug married female staff or male staff.

    After the third woman he made inappropriate comments to came forward, I learned that he had been caught having sex at a different office (in the same company) by the cleaning crew after hours. Apparently, he’d brought his girlfriend there and they walked in on them in the middle of it. He was demoted at that point, but then transfered after less than a year, to our office, where he was given his old job title back. There is no question that they knew of this incident when he transfered.

    At our job, we routinely work in pairs of two, which would make him the only person in the building with a coworker about twice a week for the next few months. When both coworkers reported it to management, they didn’t fire or suspend him. They paid another worker from a different department to come and sit with them on the shifts they are together. The guy in question has told me that he thinks it’s the women’s fault, and if they don’t like it when a man does things like that, they should be more vehement.

    Needless to say, the women are not happy that they have to be alone with this guy. Now, the third person from my shift has retired and will not be immediately replaced. I will now be working alone with him once a week. I’m not sure how to protest this, since I heard this from the women in question, ando management has kept this very hushed. I’m not supposed to know.

    2. MsM*

      “he thinks it’s the women’s fault, and if they don’t like it when a man does things like that, they should be more vehement”

      Oh, good. So then he’ll have no complaints when you make it crystal clear before you start your first shift with him that should he attempt to touch you or make any remarks not directly related to work, you will walk straight out of the room and into the HR office. Or just go ahead and go talk to them without naming any names. If this guy’s horrible reputation has become common knowledge, someone needs to make it clear to them that just passing him around from shift to shift isn’t going to cut it.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        This. He has already said how to handle it. Just let it rain down on him. Tell him you are going to file a sexual harassment complaint and then do it. Include this remark you have here in your complaint.
        Clearly, he is just going to keep doing this to people. He has no intention of stopping. Let the hammer drop, I say. Don’t give him a second chance, report him on the first incident.
        And I say rumors be damned. Either say you have heard of other complaints if you have to file a complaint. OR tell your boss that you have heard rumors and you will be filing a complaint if anything happens because the company should have realized this person cannot keep professional boundaries.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          After thinking about this for a minute longer, I think I favor telling the boss before hand.

          “Boss, it is my understanding that Bob has been sexually harassing female employees. It’s also my understanding that he does not feel he has to stop unless the employee is vehement enough. I will be working alone with Bob on X day and I would like to know what is being done to protect my rights to a work environment that is free of sexual harassment.”

          Stand firm. This is BS of the highest order.

    3. Rebecca*

      What a miserable situation. This guy should be sent to sexual harassment management class, or whatever it would be called! So, be more vehement. Carry pepper spray. If he approaches you and touches you in any way, shape or form, spray him.

      No one, male or female, should be subjected to unwanted touching or sexually based questions in the workplace. Do you have an HR department? Do they care? I have to wonder if this constitutes a hostile work environment.

    5. BananaPants*

      How awful. If management isn’t addressing concerns so far, it doesn’t sound like they’re really inclined to do so.

      When you have to work with him if he touches you in any way say firmly to him, “Do not touch me again.” If it’s in an intimate or sexual manner, state firmly, “This is sexual harrassment and you need to stop immediately.” He’ll almost certainly try to brush it off as no big deal or try to convince you that you’re overreacting but stay firm. After that if he touches you again get to a safe place in your office (maybe a bathroom?) with a cell phone and call your local police non-emergency line to report that you’re stuck at work alone with a coworker who is engaging in unwanted physical contact after clearly being told it is unwelcome, you are uncomfortable and concerned for your safety, and you need assistance.

    6. afiendishthingy*

      What the hell. Your managers really suck for not dealing with Raperface. Sorry, I think you should look for a new job, because this one is crazy toxic.

    7. nep*

      Completely unacceptable (and downright disgusting) that management is being so lax about this.
      Seriously this should not be allowed to continue for another second. What an affront to the women having to deal with him.
      Wishing you all the best — hope you’ll be able to resolve this soon.

    8. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      Are you kidding me?

      I fired somebody’s ass for sexual harassment for a lot less than that.

      This is not even a question. This needs to be put through HR stat and if HR doesn’t do anything, an employer lawyer contact immediately. First consults with lawyers are virtually always free.

      1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

        Deadly serious about the legal part, btw, deadly.

        *this* is why we have employment lawsuits. I get weary of the frivolous crap that happens. This is the reason the system exists. Use it to the max.

    9. Tomato Frog*

      I was reading this open thread from the bottom and, scrolling up, I thought, “This must be a real doozy to have so many comments so late in the open thread” and oh my god it is. How is he not fired???? HE GRABBED A SUPERVISOR AT A STAFF MEETING. HE KEPT DOING IT WHEN TOLD TO STOP.

      You can encourage your coworkers to do what Wakeen’s Teapots suggested. Also, you seem concerned that this isn’t your issue to protest because you didn’t hear about it through official channels — but the guy in question told you that he thinks this kind of harassment is acceptable. You heard it from the horse’s mouth. And surely many people witnessed the “hugging” incident? I’m not really seeing any reason for you to pretend you don’t know what’s going on.

      1. Annonish*

        I feel like they’ll be blowback on me for bringing up what they already consider a resolved situation. There was a huge staff revolt over our area manager that kind of devolved into a really antagonistic us vs them and ended up requiring intervention from several company higher-ups over the past 6 months or so. That’s just dying down now, and I not only feel like I have to tread carefully about making any complaints, but that they’re on the lookout for “problem people.”

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Line up your resources, such as Department of Labor.

          The fact that he has done this repeatedly and they are scheduling you to work alone with him, puts it back on them. So when they tell you, that was resolved and is in the past you can say. “So, then you are assuring me that I am working in a place FREE of sexual harassment?” And you can continue on by saying, “here is what my next steps will be if I do have any problem at all…” And you can feel free to say, “If something does happen it will boil down to he has had problems in the past and management continued to allow him to work alone with women.”

        2. Observer*

          If this guy is still doing this, it is NOT resolved. Line up the appropriate resources, and then if they are stupid enough to give you problems, loose the cannons. Retaliation for protesting sexual harassment happens to be illegal.

        3. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

          Lookit, New Jersey (my state) is particularly litigious because of the way certain laws are set up but you would not believe the horseshit, groundless, legal papers we have gotten. Lawyers will talk to anybody.

          What you’ve described is the reason legal avenues exist! This is the just one!

          On top of that, being free of sexual harassment in the workplace is something a lot of people before you fought long and hard for.

          This situation is so 101 I can’t believe that HR won’t act promptly.

    10. Observer*

      There is no such thing as “not supposed to know”.

      Tell your boss “I’ve heard that Don Juan has been harassing females staff. He says that it’s the victim’s fault, because they are not vehement enough, but it’s not clear what that’s supposed to mean, since telling him NO doesn’t work. I’m not going to spend time alone with someone like that.”

    11. Pineapple Incident*

      Just joining the peanut gallery party late here. This is disgusting, and very much illegal. Making it just a little bit harder for this person to get single female employees alone on his shifts with them is not enough to stop him from this pattern of nasty behavior. I would absolutely suggest what someone did upthread- tell your boss this is a problem and that you and several other coworkers are in dangerous circumstances; also, if you’re still on shifts with this creep and this happens to you, call the non-emergency police from a secure room with a locked door. That kind of incident cannot be disputed when there’s a police report on such a thing.

      I’m so sorry you have to be involved in this at all, but good for you for trying to do something about it. It’s sad, but some people turn a blind eye when they aren’t victims of this sort of harrassment.

  145. Event Planner*

    I’m trying to get a part time job teaching business classes. I have 2 masters in business including and MBA but I don’t have a lot of teaching experience. Part of the 3 hour interview is creating a interactive presentation that other candidates will be a part of. I’m at a loss of what to do and I’m nervous going up against people with more teaching experience. Any suggestions?

    1. nep*

      One thing that might help — Think about some of the teachers you have found most effective and competent over the years — what did you like about their teaching style / approach? Explore that and see what you might use.
      Another thought — I get the issue of lack of teaching experience. But just let that fact be what it is — don’t fill your head with thoughts of how you might fall short in comparison w others. Comparing yourself to others generally saps your spark and is just an utter dead end.
      Best of luck.

    2. Dynamic Beige*

      What do you know well? If you’re an event planner, there must be something about your job and business education that you see people doing wrong/making wrong assumptions about all the time that causes a lot of problems. Apply your experience, come up with solutions that would solve the problems and then break those solutions down into pieces that anyone could understand with explanations that answer the “whys”. If you can run it by some friends or family members before you have to do it, that would help. The better you know your stuff, the better you’ll do. You don’t have to know everything, you just have to know more than the person you want to teach.

  146. A Task Question*

    How can I ask a different department how to do a task that I have done for them for over a year?

    My department is a “sub-department” of a larger department (let’s call it Department A). Our two departments both have roles of recording payments made by our organization’s clients. My sub-department helps send client payment information to be processed. Some of those payments include client payments from special product campaigns run by Department A.

    One of my roles include opening the morning file box everyday to see what client payments came in. I will record which clients paid in a spreadsheet. After I sent the payments to be processed, I will give my sub-department and Department A a copy of the spreadsheet and copies of the payments for special campaign products. Department A’s staffs would sometimes get phone calls of clients trying to pay for the products from their campaigns. They would record the information and would give it to me to send to process and record in the spreadsheet along with the other payments found in the morning file box.

    Recently Department A have some new staff that are replacing the old staff. I feel a bit uncertain if the new staff knows the usual procedures or would want to change the procedures. I understand that sometimes when a new staff replaces an old one, the new staff might want to work a little differently. Department A is in charge of all of their campaigns; our sub-department does not take part in running the campaigns.

    This week in one afternoon, one of the new Department A staffs let one of the senior sub-department staff take a client payment for processing without having me to record it in the morning spreadsheet. The new staff made a copy of the payment document for record. This simplified process does get the payment processed quicker since the staff did not have to wait for me in the next morning to take the payment for process. But I am now wondering if it is still necessary for me to record the campaign payments received through the afternoon phone calls in the spreadsheet? Sometimes the sub-department receives phone call payments from trivial or non-campaign products, and we would just sent it to be processed without recording it in the spreadsheet.

    I think that I might need to ask the new Department A staffs to see if they would want to record the payments in spreadsheet or just take it to process themselves and keep track of it with their own methods.I am worried that I sound like I don’t know how to do a task after doing it for more than a year. I also don’t want to make things inconvenient, in that it might lead to recording all phone payments in the spreadsheet…even if it might not be necessary to. Should I cc’ed Department A staffs’ boss in my email when I ask them about this? Is there anything else that I might need to consider when trying to ask Department A?

    1. Wakeen's Teapots Ltd.*

      I’d have the conversation in person. Ordinarily I’m team email for efficiency all the way, but if concerned about wrong impression with someone I don’t know well, face to face is better. It could just be a pop in or a “got a sec to talk?” kinda thing.

      You just want to know what makes it easier for them, so ask.

      And then after you guys decide what make sense going forward, send a confirming email.

    2. Thinking out loud*

      It doesn’t seem exactly like you want to ask how to do it – you know how to do it. But the question of whether they are purposefully doing things differently or just doing it that way because they don’t know the old process is a good one. I agree that doing it in person is a good idea, but I would be sure to say, “I wanted to talk about the way it has worked in the past and get your feedback on whether you’d like to do it differently.”

      1. A Task Question*

        Thank you two for your advices. I will take them into consideration and think about how to frame the question.

  147. Tracey*

    Hi,
    I have 2 questions regarding the application.

    1) I had 3 recent jobs where they do not allow their supervisors/managers to give out recommendations. I tell
    they can contact, but they can only use an employment email or website. Is this right response?
    Also, I have had trouble being represented for some perfect positions through a large national recruiting company
    because they will not give interview me without most recent supervisor reference.

    2) I have also had 3 contract positions since my last permanent position ended (May, 2012). I entered them like
    this on the application: ‘May we contact this employer?” yes – through ‘THE WORK NUMBER’ or yes – Flynn
    & Assoc: 949-7159-8977.

    Please help: I am getting some interviews, but do not get a response, even though I have sent Thank You emails
    to the interviewers and copied the recruiters.

  149. Aspiring*

    I know I’m a few days late on the open thread, but was hoping I might get a little feedback before an upcoming interview. I’ve been with my current employment for about 7 years, and have excelled in each position I’ve worked. My boss announced recently that he’s leaving soon and I have applied for his position. So has another girl in our unit who has the same amount of tenure as me. I’ve been told that she and I are both strong candidates. My boss indicated that the people who will interview us already know I can do the job and have the organizational side of it, but they will need to see that I can step into the leadership part of it. He said that for the other girl, they already know she can step into the leadership part of it, but they’ll need to see that she can handle the organizational part of it. I like the other girl and feel that she and I are both deserving of the position. However, she also just finished a graduate degree and has also recently interviewed outside our agency for higher paying jobs that would qualify her for certification hours that she can’t get if she is offered and takes this position. The people that will make the hiring decision know this as well.

    My question is, how can I go about letting the interviewers know I can handle the leadership side of it and show that I am the better candidate? I know that I can, and have done as much as I could along the way to get that type of experience. I’ve mentored new employees in every position I’ve held. I’ve been selected (over the other girl and the other 2 people in my department that do the same job I currently do) to lead classroom training for new employees on a monthly basis. I was also nominated by my current boss last year for a leadership development program led by our state office personnel that none of the others in our unit were nominated for. The other girl doesn’t have any of that, so I’m not sure what they see that they feel qualifies her more than me to fill a leadership role, although I don’t doubt she is capable. I’m afraid it will come down to a “not what you know but who you know” type of thing. While I am friendly with everyone and have a good working relationship, she does tend to be more favored as far as being friendly or popular with the higher-ups than I am.

    I have written my cover letter and have updated my resume to show my accomplishments and all the leadership type things I’ve mentioned here. I’m also getting reference letters from people who are directly related to the jobs the position supervises, and I’m getting a reference letter from the manager over the training of new employees that indicates how well I mentored new employees. I’ve interviewed for a supervisor position a few years ago so I’m somewhat prepared for the type of questions I believe will be asked, and I’ve also held both positions that this role will manage (while the other girl has only done one of the two). Any advice on what else I could do to demonstrate that I’m capable? What types of things upper management look for in someone to fill a supervisor role? Maybe I should mention that I’m in a government social work type of agency.

    1. ThursdaysGeek*

      One thing I wouldn’t do in the interview is compare myself to the other person. Show them why you think you have the skills for the job and give good reasons. But don’t do any comparisons, or even mention her (unless they bring her up first). You’re not trying to show how you’re better than her — you’re trying to show why you’re a great fit for that job, whether she were there or not.

  150. Curious*

    I know I’m late to this thread but I have a question I’m really curious about. One of my coworkers has a disability (I’m not sure about the details about her condition, because the disability isn’t visible). Recently, she’s started getting upset and even angry whenever someone is in our office’s handicap bathroom. If she tries the door and it is locked, she’ll curse – sometimes under her breath, sometimes loudly- and has even followed someone out of the bathroom area and scolded them for using the handicap bathroom when he didn’t need to use it. She doesn’t want to wait for anyone else to be done to use the bathroom, and it is the only bathroom she can use. Now, the rumor in the office is that she went to HR and asked that the bathroom be locked, and she be given a key. That way, only she can use this bathroom. Today, the bathroom is locked.

    I wonder if it is legal for the workplace to lock the bathroom and only give the key to select people? NOTE: this is not the only bathroom, there are separate bathrooms for women and men, but some people in the office may feel more comfortable using the bigger, ADA bathroom for a variety of reasons. We also have a lot of visitors to the office for meetings and events, many of whom are elderly and may need to use this bathroom, so the receptionist has a key as well. But I’m wondering, would a visitor feel comfortable asking for that key? Also, if someone in the office has a disability and needs to use the bathroom, but doesn’t want to disclose it as this other coworker did, is it legal to force them to disclose their disability so that they may also get a key? And, if a visitor to the office is using the bathroom, and this coworker uses her key to open it, won’t she have the power to walk in on these visitors (many of whom are VIPs)? This is creating quite the debate in our office, and I’d love any other input!

    1. ThursdaysGeek*

      Wow – if there is more than one key, and a key can be used to open the door no matter what, I hope she knocks before entering!

      However, it is more polite for non-handicapped people to not use the handicap toilet unless that is the only one open, even if the larger toilet is more comfortable.

  151. Sasha*

    I was 20! minutes late to work today because of train troubles – the only day the partner happens to show up! Just venting. Manager didn’t say anything though.

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